# For those who make money at woodworking



## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I think I'll stop giving detailed estimates. From now on I'm going to ball park it on the spot to see if I'm dealing with someone who's dreaming or buying. I waste so much time and email and phone calls on these folks, it's enough to take the creative energy right out of me.

What do you guys do when you have first contact with a potential customer on the phone, or email and they want…say…a table 4.5' x 30" and a bench out of oak?

I was beginning to think that my people skills were bad or something, but then I realized that my estimate was honest and no one could undercut my price because it was so low. These people must be discouraged by something else. Maybe a general lack of money in the country even for those living in large homes who you'd think could glum $2k out of petty cash.

Or maybe there are just a lot of dreamers out there who don't consider how long it takes me to work up an estimate.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

i did the same thing while back i broke it down for customers usually.i remember this 1 guy asked if i could minus the labor and shop costs hahahaa what a donkey!


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi there,
I have done some finishing work with estimates. A lot of time I offer to hire the person who wants the job done. "If you can be my helper on the site, I'll charge you 1/3 less." As far as building things such as furniture, I make them and put a price on them, if the demand for it is out there, it will sell, if not; then they turn into gifts or become part of the home decor.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

mrjinx007, I do have some stuff out for sale, but nothing is happening with them. I actively go after people who want something custom built. It's an incredible challenge for me to do this because you just never know what you're getting into. So I think as a pre-qualifier to a sale, I'll tell them what's involved right off the bat and weed out those who can't afford it. I wonder what a client would say if I told them the if they have to ask about price, they can't afford it. lol


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Most people want a ballpark quote and unless they've had
custom work done before and paid market value for it,
they'll often have sticker shock and will need some time
to think it over.

In the end they do one of four things: hire you, 
hire somebody else, try to do it themselves, or 
they don't get the work done.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Loren, this business requires we learn a lot more than woodworking.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

This is a subject that interests me a lot; the value we place on our own time (or thing) vs the value placed on our time (or thing) by others. I don't claim to understand much about it, but I do understand there is often quite a difference between the two. I also understand that the term "hand crafted" means much more to most craftsmen than it does to most customers.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Very true. I think most folks (except those who shop at Tiffany) can't relate to what a fine furniture is worth and its possible value down the road. If someone calls me requesting a table with certain specifications, my first question would be where did you see it or do you have a picture of it. If they saw it at Wal-mart, or the picture came from Hobby Lobby, then it is obvious they want a price lower than that. If they know their stuff, then a rough break down of material, labor and whatever else is involved can be obtained in less than an hour for $20 upon excepting the bid offer.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

You can tie it to a retail costing.

There are a lot of folks that assume as a solo person, you are magically less expensive than Ashley furniture - doing tables for 299 with 4 chairs.
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For a strategy -
ESPECIALLY if you are talking to some of the women… You can reference your estimates against say Pottery Barn.
seems EVERYBODY has a pottery barn catalog:

things like this bed below: - I think I can come in really close to their price (849 with handling)for a painted piece of furniture. So you can say "I am a little more than Pottery Barn/Eddie Bauer Home/Ethan Allen etc. so that they have a frame of reference in their heads… and not just a raw number you just gave them… You can bet they will go LOOK UP the pottery barn item,... I would tell them that mine is going to be better quality at the same price and I will personally deliver it.

their dining tables are 1500-2900 dollars, but I think it will help if you can give them a frame of reference for what they will get, and lessen the shock-because they can/will verify whether it is a good deal..


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Very true; and you can't call Pottery and custom order products; maybe you can. Never heard of Pottery barn.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

This is why I so much enjoy creating work and doing shows. When I go to a show it is WSYWIG "What You See is What You Get" and I stay clear from the ever so increasing competitive marketplace. that is seen almost everywhere. I do custom commissions also but if a person doesn't like my price or my required 50% deposit then I am not concerned because what I create and build is not competing with Walmart or pottery at some barn.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I prefer doing custom work. In the beginning, I had trouble finding customers. But part of the problem was that I was looking in the wrong place. Since I have improved which shows I go to, getting people willing to pay hasn't been a problem. I also have increased my prices every January and haven't scared them off yet. So maybe look at better shows.


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## thechipcarver (Jan 29, 2014)

It's sad how the world has become. I found that today, people would rather go to a big box store, pay 1/4 of the price for something that only last 1-2 years. Just to turn around and buy it again. People don't want to spend more money on a good, quality piece that is going to last 20+ years.

It has become a desposable world.

When my Grandfather past away a couple of years ago, the family went through his garage. We found parts of for motors, tools and odd and ends of all kinds of things. Because back then you did not just throw something away and buy a new one. You repaired it yourself. You could buy parts to do that. In todays world you can't.

This is the same with furnature and such.

P.S. On the things you have already made and can't sell, increase the price. I read that in an article and did not believe it. I am a chip carver, I make things on a much smaller scale. But I remember one year I had made these cross ornaments. Took them around to many shows, the price $3. Did not sell a single one. After reading that article, I tried it at the next show. Middle of July, I sold everyone of those ornaments for $5. Wierd but it worked.


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## FellingStudio (Oct 17, 2013)

Customer qualification is an important skill. We probably shouldn't really be interested in a customer who would otherwise be purchasing an item at Pottery Barn, Ikea, or any number of other "big" corporate sources. So, it is important to be able to do things to gauge the customer's budget. Ways to do this are to take a site visit to see what other types of furniture the customer has. (Tells you quality, style to design too, and should give you an idea to the customer's overall wealth.) Also, ask what they do for a living, how they found you, where they live, what style of piece they are looking for. The answers to these questions are going to be important for a number of reasons, but for the purposes of this discussion, they will help you qualify that the customer is legit, knows what they are asking for, and can afford the piece.

If you get the answers that you are looking for, then you can give a ballpark figure and start work on designing a piece for the customer.

You can also employ a third party in the form of an interior designer or a gallery to qualify customers for you.

Of course, it's also important to understand your position in the market. My thoughts here are primarily pointed at an aspiring fine furniture maker. Cabinet makers are probably going to think about customers in a fairly similar light, but if you are primarily selling Adirondack chairs or cutting boards, you are probably not going to be too concerned with qualifying customers. Rather, you will just make your product and market it.


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## Furnitude (Oct 18, 2008)

Just a little story. I have a friend who is a pro and got a call from someone interested in a rocking chair. They talked about style and materials, etc. My friend makes stuff at the level of thousands of dollars for a custom rocking chair. The prospective customer said she wanted him to beat the price she would pay at Cracker Barrel, which was $99. He was too nice to hang up on her.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Felling - agree in principal, but unfortunately not everyone that owns a table saw is actually producing products that are truly "Better" than some of the big box stuff.

I know I never went for a 1000 dollar kids bed (twin size painted)...because it is a kids bed. But that price is pretty close to what the individualized/custom maker could do it for.

Hit the nail on the head that you have to figure out what they are really looking for. Perhaps even asking them if they have a target/budget in mind.

I also have in our guest room an Ikea queen size bed for the last 18 years that my wife and I used before we were home owners- so it can be dangerous to generalize too much that everything from a store is particle board ******************** that would only last 1 year, and everyone who owns a tablesaw is Sam maloof turning out something that will be sold at Sotheby's in a hundred years - or be on antiques roadshow.

You have to know your market, and where on a big continuum - *ones own skills *actualy are. And whether you represent a 'Risk' to the customer. If you want 5K for a table with 2500 up front for materials, on a 'promise' that you will make something they will love, with no history/portfolio to show them… that is a tough sell.

One has to choose a guide for themselves - but for example Russ made a nice table and was pricing it to clear 700 bucks.










This is what is for sale for 700 bucks - - I would say FAR FAR less craftsmanship that what Russ made above. I would expect no trouble making money at this.


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## rum (Apr 28, 2011)

mrjinx007: rofl, I worked with one older fellow who would charge customers 30% MORE if they stuck around to "help". Its all perspective I suppose.

thechipcarver: funny how most folks can't figure that out. An acquaintance was selling some turned items and he was telling me he sold out at $30 but when he made a bunch more and marked them down to $20 hoping to up the volume not one sold. I told him that maybe he ought to increase the price back to $30 and see how that went which earned me a funny look (his friend agreed with me so hopefully he tried it) .

RussellAP, this is part of any related business. I'm more in computers and used to do a lot of consulting work. The window shoppers and lookie loos can eat you alive if you let them. I can't count how many detailed bids we did that either a) went no where or b) went to someone else. We started charging a "design fee" that was applied towards your account if you wanted an actual detailed design/bid. Otherwise basically your approach of "it will cost somewhere between lots and a whole bunch; probably more than you were planning but still less than it should be".


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

DrDirt, you know that table is still for sale at a shop that just opened their doors a couple months ago. They are not in the greatest of locations, a strip center along a hiway with one direction entry, but they are smack dab in the middle of 4 lake communities. I have high hopes for this store when the weather straightens out. Plus it's now $399.00


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry to hear it isn't moving quicker for you Russ - would have expected that to be snapped up for a lake home there… it isn't exactly trailerparks and Walmarts in your location. I would figure the folks around Lake Winnebago would be sure customers.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Ikea and those kind of stores who make quite nice looking rubbish, have spoiled it for decent woodworkers and cabinet makers out there. They see a table and four chairs made ot of formaldehyde glued wood dust with a photographic wood finish on it , and never get to realise that, in the solid wood furniture world, the materials alone would cost more than Ikea charge for the whole sorry bunch of stuff they sell.
Who could make a table and four chairs for a few hundred bucks which would last about a year or little more from solid wood for two hundred dollars or here of course pounds sterling .Let's be honest , even if they supplied the raw materials you couldn't do it. And even if they supplied all the hardwood materials already cut and jointed thicknessed and ready for work you would not be able to. That is if you live in a world where your kids need new shoes ,clothes, never mind a roof over their heads, and food. 
It beggers belief that some peole with ikea attitudes want quality furniture for little more than wood******************** er chip junk.Even the woodchip is inferior to what it once was.I am glad I don't depend on this for an income and I admit I have been during my life very lucky with the job I had in orthodontics.Untill people who can afford better quality furniture ,and I perfectly well understand that not everyone can.
Until they themselves understand, that bespoke well made furniture, like antique well made chippendale furniture of yesteryear will still be functional and attractive in three hundred years and that it is very good value when it is all considered and understood properly, as by then it will be worth a hundred times what you pay today for it.
Untill the people who can afford bespoke well made things really get the value of these things understood properly then todays cabinet furniture makers will face an uphill struggle.Perhaps not an impossible venture ,but the word has to be spread and people who want the best money can buy as, a long term functioning enjoyable piece of furniture is definitely a well made good long term investment. Furniture ready to be held down through the family or sold for a good profit in the future.Untill as I say that is more widely grasped and understood it will be a difficult job for a time to come yet I fear.Alistair


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

DrDirt, I think one of the problems has been that they are only open 3 days every other week. This should be changing soon as spring and summer hit. I have and adirondack chair and table there as well, but I'm going to replace the red cedar with aromatic cedar with a nice lite stain and seal later this month. I'm hoping to sell quite a few of them. I plan to make the most classic adirondack I can make. Lake communities are big on those.


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## bbandu (Mar 4, 2014)

I have the same problem when it comes to building Aquarium stands and canopys. I may build one stand for every 10 estimates that I write up. People think that its going to be cheaper but usually thats not the case. I have only been building Aquarium stand for other for a short while and I know there is very little wiggle room in my prices, because I know that I am undercharging for labor. I am hoping to find that happy medium when it comes to labor charges or what to add for labor on differnt projects. I know this cuts down on my profits but it gets the word out there and have gotten several referals because of the quality of my work not just my pricing.

I as well sometimes use big box stores items to show the customer that they are getting a very similar item for a reasonable price.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I too have referenced retail prices, if you saw it at Walmart I can build it at 4 - 5 times the cost and 4 - 5 times the quality. Other than that, I usually reference "close" to what Ethan Allen charges, possibly a little more given that it is custom. The bad part is that it doesn't even feel like my project, the customer has established the form and the dimensions.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Here is the point of view of one rather well to do woman I know. We were discussing the quality of furniture in general and how it compared with pieces I make. She indicated that she doesn't really care about quality, but is really only interested in how an item looks. She is 70+ and isn't worried about passing heirloom items to her kids. I don't know how prevalent that mind set is but how can craftspeople ever crack that nut?


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

rum,
Every person I gave that offer to took me up on it because in the process of saving money, they got to learn something side by side of me. I remember one guy, he worked with me for 3 weeks and at the end, his reluctant wife was so impressed that she bought him $400 worth of tools; obviously she had a lot more projects for him to do. He as well was so happy, he gave me an extra $200 above what I had asked for. This is how you make good friends and maintain your reputation and business integrity.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Art, there will always be collectors who will buy based on speculation and pay top dollars for their investments be it paintings, glassware or woodwork. I know of a family member who paid $5000 for a coffee table made out of drift-wood like material because it looked good in his summer guest house; and it looked very good in there. And he bought it at a thrift shop. There are people whom have so many millions that they don't care about the project at hand but they make the purchase just for conversation piece. Everyone who came to this gathering wasn't impressed by the surround sounds, the Jacuzzi, the remote controlled blinders or the beautiful cottage; they all had one; but the table….. everyone wanted one of them.


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

I've never sold furniture, but I've got high-end sales experience.

The first thing that I'd get comfortable with is: you're not selling a friggin' coffee table - you're selling you. You're the product, and they're not going to find another one of you in a catalog or online.

Ask a *lot* of qualifying questions - obviously you want to know what piece their looking for, but where's it going to go? What else do they have in the room? Is it something that's going to be sold/given away the next time they redecorate or do they want something that they can give to their grand kids? Questions like "what have you seen that you've liked?" can give you an insight in to their taste and budget. A follow-up of "so why didn't you get it?" can be pretty revealing, too.

If they ask for a price after all of these questions, be very matter of fact, very unapologetic - being squeamish about price conveys doubts and can make someone question whether the product is worth it. As a salesman, it's easier to sell something expensive that you're confident in as opposed to selling something inexpensive that you have concerns over.

If I were selling commissioned furniture and the qualifying questions made me pretty confident that they were in the right market, my first goal would be to secure an appointment in their home. Getting in to a client's house is always a good idea - it can help you get a better lay of the land (financially), give you more insight in to their tastes, and give you an opportunity to create rapport. Also, people are just more receptive on their own ground - odds of closing the sale go up considerably when you get in their home.

By the time that you've gone through all of this, they've invested in you, too - again, you're the product. People with money value their time, and if they feel that you've got a handle on their wants and needs, they're not going to want to start from square one with some other yahoo just to save a few hundred/thousand bucks.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

One of the challenges we face - goes back to the disposable nature of society - - At the high end, folks want good quality and things not found everywhere as Jinx pointed out.

But for longevity - you have a lot of folks who want to "redecorate" and get new sofas and tables every 2-3 years. Much like trading in cars, they have to have the latest thing, and a "New" conversation piece/decorated room right out of better homes and gardens magazine.
Suddenly in that climate - the long lasting quality is lost to some instant gratification (so take delivery Thursday - not in 3 weeks), and an expectation to be getting something Different in a couple years anyway.

Suppose the old adage of knowing your market is still key - - but easier said than done.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

WilliamMSP, very good advice.


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## FellingStudio (Oct 17, 2013)

@DrDirt - Oh, I definitely understand that not everybody with a table saw can produce product that is better than the big furniture boxes. Again, it is important to understand your place in the market. This statement applies to our skills and shop capabilities as much as our product. It stands to reason that in order to sell product at a price higher than the big boxes, we need to be able to produce a product that the big box cannot. Our product has to be of a higher quality, and it has to be unique.

In the realm of furniture, I would argue that the only niche in the market available to us little guys is art/high end/heirloom. As such, as WilliamMSP said, we are selling ourselves as much as we are selling the furniture. Therefore, it is important to have a professional web site with a good portfolio. And, it is important to properly qualify your customers and project an air of professionalism/competency.


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

Maybe give a rough estimate face to face and propose a very detail proposal for witch your charge few hours of your time.
Make that charge refundable towards the project. Most serious people would go for it.


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## Boatman53 (May 21, 2012)

Here's my story. I've been in business now for 27 years. I do woodworking on boats or boat related items always on commission. I have never built anything hoping to sell it at a craft fair so I have a little different spin. My first year in business it was October when a guy comes in the shop and asks if I can do a pretty major repair on his boat. He said he was living on a fixed income and needed a very firm price. I needed work, I had almost nothing booked. I hadn't done many estimates yet. I shot him a price and he took it. Long story short I was way under on my price, there were unforeseen issued that could not be know before I started. He held me to the price, would not budge. It nearly ended my business before it had really started. Spring came new offers for work came in deposits were collected and spent just as fast, all trying to finish that one job. I finished it, lost a lot of money but eventually got cought up. I have never given an estimate or firm price since. If I am asked to do a job, I tell them my rate and all work is time and materials. I then explain that they are welcome to watch or even help if they want to. I even offer to teach them how to do some of the maintenance like varnishing. I've had some help me, and evermore they are happy to pay my bill. If they balk at my time and material conditions I tell them if I give them a fixed price in the end most likely one of us is cheating the other. If I under bid they are cheating me and vise-a-versa. Shoddy work usually happens at the end of the job as the bid is approached of exceeded. There is no room in the work I do for shoddy and I tell them so. I offer to give them some names of others that might do the work on their conditions. As a result of my honesty and hard work and all that other crap I have a very loyal customer base. I have one customer that I've worked with for 30 years, he was a side job before I started my business. Some I don't even see or speak to but when we do get a chance it's like we are friends that haven't seen each other in a while. The secretary tells me when the boss wants the boat and I deliver. I fax the bill to the office and I'm paid in three days.
Boats are different than anything relating to a house of furniture those things are paid grudgingly. The owners of boats have a personal connection to therir boats, in some cases a love affair. And anything the boat needs gets attended to. I was nervous giving a customer a bill one time, he had been traveling and by the time he stopped in to see the work the bill was over 17K, the largest bill I had written at that time. He looked at the bill, said I was doing a fine job, pulled out his checkbook and paid the bill on the spot. He said he never minded getting bill from me because it showed I was working on his boat and that meant he was going to have a grand summer sailing. I've had the opportunity to work on the mega yachts as well as well as small canoes. I'm now working on the most challenging project of my career, it's time and materials bound by a hand shake. The man walked up to me when he saw a boat I had built and said "I think you are the guy" and in the last year and a half he has become a good friend. He comes to the shop about once a week to help and to brainstorm the next phase of the project. Now if only I could sit down and do the billing, I hate the paperwork aspect of being in business but that is a whole nother topic.
Jim


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

I'm working with a client right now that I have never done work for. 
I've already spent many hours drawing layouts and revising them, 
I've spent 3 Saturdays meeting with them for about 3 hours each time. 
I spent 5 hours there yesterday…. 
I haven't seen a dime and don't know for sure if I will. 
But I have already developed a relationship with them and nobody else is bidding or working on the job. 
I'm 99.999% sure I am going to do the work. (means I don't know)
I could have charged to do the drawings, and for my time meeting with them, but in this situation I thought it would be better for me to just do it. It was a judgment call, and every situation is different.
When I bid the job I will add in the time I have spent.

Moral of the story is *sometimes you have to invest yourself*.

Quite often you will spend time estimating, drawing, figuring things out and it will be for nothing. 
I think it's just part of doing business.

You have to read your customers to decide how much of your free time you're willing to invest to land a job.
Giving ball park prices is one way, as long as your experienced in getting your pricing close. A ball park price that is too high may scare your customer away and one that is too low may look like you don't know what your doing.


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## mprzybylski (Nov 21, 2011)

I don't sell furniture (yet, anyways) but I do sell my services as a web developer. Because of free templates and sites that claim they can make you a "custom" website for $100 it's always a crapshoot trying to get work outside of my day job (large ad agency, they don't mind paying and have big clients themselves).

In any case, people always ask me "how much do you charge for a website?" It's a question you can't answer because it's akin to asking "how much do you charge for a house?" Well, how big is the house, where is it, how many rooms, what types of finishes are in it, etc. same thing applies to a site, what sections, do you need a content management system, should it work on mobile devices, should it support old browsers, etc. all those are things people don't think about but they're quite important to a developer and need to be answered before a proper price point is established.

When I first started in the business I didn't know how to approach answering that question and I would often provide a price point that in the end netted out to me working for pennies and "bettering my portfolio". These days as an experienced developer one of the first questions I ask to gauge a persons seriousness and know how on the topic, and I'm not shy to ask it, is "what's your budget?" That single phrase has saved me countless hours doing research, putting together estimates, meetings, driving around etc. when someone replies with $250 I put on a smile and either say good luck or that they should look into those template sites. It's unrealistic for me to pursue the job any more knowing that this person is unwilling to pay for custom work and has no idea how much it actually costs to create a site from scratch. I've also saved myself all that trouble and I can move on with my life knowing I didn't miss out in any money.

The usual response is "I don't know, I'm not sure how much a site costs" to which my rebuttal usually is "I'm sure you had an idea in your head of a number you'd like to ideally spend so just give me that number". If they're really low I explain what it takes to create the site and let them think it through. If they're around what I know a site costs or even higher then I know they're serious and the discussion continues.

Sometimes they will say "well I don't know really, how much do you usually charge?" To which I reply "I can't tell you that because your needs are different than those of Taco Bell and/or Jeep so I need to know what you want". I can usually get to a point if they are serious enough where I can gauge what price they want and at that point I make a decision if it's worth pursuing or not.

I never ever hesitate to ask the budget question anymore. It's part of my initial interview with a prospective client and I'd suggest you add it to your line of questioning as well. After all you are providing a service and your time is part of the discussion as they know they'll be paying for it.


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## EastLake (Mar 11, 2014)

I prescribe to breaking down the project into 4 categories, and rolling with that. Material, Labor, Over-head, and Profit. If I want to just clear a good buck on labor, then I don't worry too much about padding in the Profit. After a while, I get an idea of what the labor and material costs are going to be, and the monthly cost of running the shop then give them a "ball-park" on the spot. If they seem interested (nod, look like they are thinking, etc) then I offer a more accurate estimate.

I almost ALWAYS require the full material cost up front (including hardware) before the project gets started.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

I do not sell anything I make. Perhaps one day, but I have absolutely no plans to do so. Therefore, I will give you my perspective as a consumer. A ball park figure is best at the start. I need to know if I can afford the product. Quite honestly, when I was barely making the mortgage, even working two jobs, Ikea / Walmart was too expensive for most items and I had to simply go without. Later, the quality of what I wanted improved because I had more disposable income. Now I am starting to look closer at quality and valuing it over the price, but only because I have hit a stage in life where job raises, kids becoming young adults, etc, is making things a bit easier to afford, although I still have to be careful with what I spend. For example, the old house had no basement and when I redid the kitchen I used vinyl squares on the floor and cabinets from Home Depot that I had to assemble. It wasn't the best, and wouldn't hold up compared to custom cabinets, but I could pay the bill. Last year it was time to redo the kitchen in my current house. I still couldn't afford everything we wanted, but by tearing out the cabinets ourselves, and installing a hardwood floor on our own, we were able to get cherry cabinets installed that look great and will outlast our time in the house.

My point is simple. It isn't always that folks don't understand a nice piece of furniture is a long term investment. Sometimes they are not in a place in life where they can afford that investment. Educate your potential buyer, provide a ball park amount for their project, and understand that they struggle to make end meet like most of us. They may not make a purchase at that time, but perhaps they will recall the good customer service you provided when they can afford that special piece.


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## KeithMathewson (Mar 11, 2014)

WilliamMSP gives very much the same advise I give to young guys trying to sell. You are selling yourself, first, last and always. As someone who is making the product you can see all the reasons why your product is better than the mass produced ones, now apply the same thinking to a product line you may not be as interested in, the example I use is fashion. Most woodworkers don't care about fashion so can't see why someone would pay $400 or more for a designer sweater, shoes, etc. No matter what the quality of materials are, better styling, etc. YOU are not the target market so no matter what is said you will most likely not buy, but for the person who is in the target market they will buy because of the Brand name- you are the brand. Customers look for a brand they trust, you have to make them trust you. Once they trust you then the price is not as important, their time has a high value and as WilliamMSP said they DON'T want to spend their time shopping around, they want to make a choice and move on. Custom furniture and designer clothes have something in common, they appeal to a cliental who has the means to afford them without having to consider the price, find the right cliental.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

All very good comments/ideas. Make something unique and hope there are the 20% people out there that appreciate the job and are willing to pay for the efforts and craftsmanship. Unfortunately, most artists are recognized after they die of hunger; the story makes the project even more interesting; a conversation piece. Make a bunch of $5 thingy and prosper while you are alive. Not sure what the right answer is; just follow your heart, maybe?


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## rareddy (Jan 31, 2009)

I can't say what it takes to make a living doing woodworking. Certainly accurately accounting for time and materials, but also recognizing the goals of a potential customer. I'm not going to buy fine furniture to hold a bunch of books in a spare bedroom, and you can't blame people for trying to get something for cheaper, or nothing, anymore than blaming the woodworker for trying to get every penny that he can out of his work. In the end, the market will decide what your pieces are worth.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

+ Bob Areddy….It is and always will be supply and demand.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

When I was doing engineering consulting the hardest part was often pricing and estimating. New customers usually wanted a firm fixed price, and I'd tell them, "I prefer to bill time & materials. I'll give you an estimate, I usually come in under the estimate but it might be higher. If you want a firm price it'll be 50% over the hourly estimate." Most customers chose the estimate; those that didn't usually chose the estimate the next time. For repeat customers the estimates were usually even more accurate as I learned what they expected, but most long term customers didn't even bother asking for an estimate; they needed the work done and knew I'd be fair.

I did learn to not make proposals too detailed, after wasting time making the proposal only to not get the job, but hear through the grapevine that somebody else got the job instead, with the work looking suspiciously like my proposal.

One thing I read, and it's true: The first important lesson you have to learn is when to turn down a bad offer. The second important thing to learn is when it's advisable to turn down a good offer.


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## j1212t (Dec 7, 2013)

Very good points here. I am a sales guy by proffession and I take great pride in my work, I also am quite a bit of a nerd, meaning I like my research, so just a quick tip about Hit-Rates (lets call it HR for now)

I see people complaning that maybe only 10% or 20% of the quotes go to actual orders. In my experience and detailed research a 10% HR is frikin' awesome, especially if you are dealing with new customers.

If you are dealing with repeat customers a HR above 25% is amazing, if you are getting more than that you are probably charging too little for your efforts. Realistically and statistically I have been getting a HR at around 17% with my customers, which I am very well satisfied with.

Now, taking into account the statistically low HR, where *only 1/6 of your quotes go to work on your repeat customers and only less than 1/10 for new customers*, you need to make damn sure that you are not spending a lot of time on your quotes. For sure, when you are starting out you will take a long time on your quotes as you should, because sometimes in a blue moon you need to quote a general price range on the spot, so you need to know damn well where your money is going in your production process. But after a maximum of 2 years you need to be able to quote any of your products that costs less than 700$ in less than 15 minutes. Otherwise you are spending more time quoting than producing and quoting in itself provides no value.

The way I do it is that right off the bat after we get their needs written down, I will give them an initial figure, where I say that the quote is accurate to +-10% (realistically my quotes are usually within the accuarcy of 5%) and I can do that very quickly. If they accept that we might move on to a more detailed quote, but usually this is where it stops, until we start production, which is when I give them the end quote and get a written confirmation on it.

So a small summary is:
*A hit rate above 25% is a staistical improbability and if you are hitting it consistently, you need to be rising your prices. Since in a fair market situation between HR is 5-17%, you need to be very intentional about spending very little time on making quotes*. Also, be honest with your customers, know your price and ask your price proudly. I have saved myself so much heartache with knowing exactly what something costs and what is the minimum price I can charge and since I know that I can ask my price confidently and my customer sees and feels my integrity and buys that, without conciously knowing why they bought from us.


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## EastLake (Mar 11, 2014)

I am really getting to love this thread. Lots of perspective from many different professions and plenty of material to chew on.

As a rookie to the woodworking sales business, my current furniture projects (of which there are 2, along with a kitchen cabinet job, railings, and molding accents) were purely based on reputation; clients approached me looking for a particular product. My wife knew people that knew what kind of people we were, and when I gave a quote to someone and briefly explained why it was so much, they understood. For example, "If you want something in that price range, I cannot hand build panels of hardwood, you will have to settle for plywood panels in a rail and stile frame". I have found that just a bit of education that does not insult the clients intelligence often will sell the job. People don't generally want cheaper components if they are asking for "X,Y,Z". I learned early on to highlight the advantages, downplay the deficiencies, and keep 'em saying yes. If they still haggle over price, they are not the type of client to appreciate your trade or artistry. I am also a tattoo artist, and in that respect, charge way less than my competitors only because I am fair, and it shows in my invoicing. Be a craftsman above reproach, know your market, and give the public something unique and you will have no problem selling your work.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

I like Jake's analytical approach.

I am in the process of retiring (it's squishier than working wood!) after 34 years self employed as a woodworker.

In Russell's OP he sounds angry. Understandable. He's doing work (estimating) and not getting paid.

My response to that is, then figure out a way to get paid. And Jake provides the background and a good business plan will provide the framework. (Lately I have been in on the creation of a BP using the SCORE form and it comes highly recommended.) A good business plan, created with the help of a disinterested 2nd party (like a student pursuing an MBA), will make a great difference in this scenario.

In short, for Russell to get paid for writing and presenting bids, he needs to know what his HR is and how long it takes him to prepare a typical presentation and what he needs to earn per hour. Ready, set, amortize! Now his time is paid, a small part in each bid that is accepted-just like his fixed costs are.

This is not to take anything away from the wonderful input in this thread about qualifying, preparing, presenting, all that. There is a powerhouse of high voltage wisdom here.

Kindly,

Lee


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

thechipcarver, you are partially to mostly correct but… if you make something totally different, unique, practical, functional and with a purpose that they could never find anywhere else then you have a foot in the door, myself I've found this niche and it's working for me.

Russell just for the reasons you pointed out I have decided to no longer do custom orders and only build what I want, what makes me happy, leaving the headaches behind, but.. I don't have to rely on that income, the extra monies I make is very nice and what I make is pure savings also icing on the cake, unlike a lot of others and yourself I'm sure, though I'm sure it's different and it also depends on what you are skilled at and what you are making such as a furniture builder or a box builder, myself I'm a box builder so I have to make sure what I make has a purpose that's what people are looking for not just a dust collector.


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## JLango (Sep 21, 2008)

Not sure how this will look on your screen. But I made an excel sheet that I follow for larger custom projects. I keep 50 or so copies on hand and it helps to generate a price for potential customers. 
First is Materials. Find out how much wood will cost. AND always add your consumables. (sandpaper, brushes etc..)

Second is Labor:
Planning/layout in hrs
Actual building the product
Prep and sanding
Finish and or paint

Add your total time TIMES your rate.
Then add materials costs
then mark it all up say 20%.
That will give you your total.

Not saying its the best way, but it helps!


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Very interesting topic. For myself, I will ask for details if it's something close to something else I've made I might make a quick estimate but high. If it's an unknown, I'll agree for a fee to do a detail drawing in sketchup, with a price for a price of usally 50-75 bucks. If they go through with the sale, that is credited towards the purchase price. I also require 50% down at start. If I've already begun (30 days in) and a change is requested, there is a fee for that. It is all spelled out in an agreement we both sign. This keeps fuzzy memories from entering into the deal.

I use to have a lot of folks come see some of my pieces and say would you make one for me, but when I give them a quick price, they smile and say they will get back to me.

I've managed learn to spot the real interest .vs. the Ikea folks with no money for my wares. That's ok, and I understand.

I use to feel bad about potential lost sales, but then realized I was not going to do this for free, and my time is worth something.

BTW, I do this as a hobby, but word of mouth has started driving my visits and contacts so I've got projects out a year or so.


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## rossboyle52 (Dec 31, 2012)

Great advice from WilliamMSP. 
Every 3 years or so my wife trades her Caddy for a new one. She goes to the same dealership every time. Never squabbles on price. When her car needs service (even just oil change) she drops her car off and they give her another Caddy to drive for the day. When her car is ready they call her cell and give her the option of delivering the car to her or arranging for pick up. Oil changes,tire rotation etc are no charge services as well as state inspections. Obviously they sell service. 20 plus years of buying from this dealership and same salesman, they still email or call a few days after the service to make sure she is completely satisfied with the level of service that they provided. They still take her picture standing beside her new car then have it enlarged and put onto a new calendar every year and send it to her at Christmas time along with a personal card from the salesman. I have adopted these personal touches to my woodworking business. No I don't sell a ton of furniture but my customers get the same treatment that my wife gets at the auto dealership. Personal care. Follow up calls or emails along with Christmas cards, birthday cards etc. People like to be petted. (especially women) Hence the reason Lowes is so successful.


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## pvwoodcrafts (Aug 31, 2007)

I've been a self employed custom cabinet/furniture maker for 20 years, and 20 years of people trying to convince me that I custom build for what they can buy at Lowes and pier 1 was enough. Last couple of years I did do custom work after working up an estimate , sometimes in home visits measuring kitchen or spaces for custom furniture at no charge, when I gave an estimate and they would say "well Lowes can do my kitchen for $1,000 less or pier 1 has something that will work for $40", I'd had it. The only thing that kept me going so long were the few customers that paid what it was worth and were happy.
Now my wife and I do small craft /gift items , do the craft shows, make more money and enjoy our work more


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm learning to keep it short and sweet. My problem is I like to write. I enjoy explaining details about construction, wood movement, finish - all the stuff we think about that the average civilian really has no concept of. It can just baffle, confuse and overwhelm people sometimes. I have email exchanges with clients that have gone back and forth 30 times or more, only to lose them.

I try and keep things short now. I try not to waste anybody's time. Ballpark up front and I'm not nice about it anymore. If I don't scare them off right away, I probably have a new customer and I'll get paid what I'm worth for a change.

Of course at the moment, I can afford to be like that. Wasn't always the case and may not be in the future.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

they want…say…a table 4.5' x 30" and a bench out of oak?Well come down to the shop and see which pieces of oak your thinking,the colors and grain patterns are so different it's hard to come up with a price over the phone.but
i'd love to sit down with you and discuss your project.
You just got rid of the window shoppers.now it's all you your product and price.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I usually go ahead and give full-blown estimates even on small projects. The practice helps me get faster with each project and I find I've been able to get more money out of projects than most people would expect. Not too long ago I bid $300 to do a flag box and was surprised when they eventually accepted it. Wasn't super profitable since small projects never are but it was in the black and I gained one more happy client.

I've also positioned my company in a place where people can't compare our work to that found in any big box store so no price wars there.

As time goes on, I get better at doing spontaneous ballpark estimates which helps if people I'm talking to suddenly request ballpark figures during a conversation.

In regards to Lowes, I can actually beat them in a cost/value competition. Their most expensive line of cabinets doesn't have features like pullout trays and lazy susan upper corner cabinets which I can offer for a modest markup. They can't build a mobile island. They also have to hire local contractors to do installs and our installs are usually a little lower in price.

Having CNC to build the boxes doesn't hurt either.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

I am a weekend warrior, with dreams of someday jumping in and actually selling some of my work. I was told one time that a quick way to estimate what to charge is to estimate the price of the wood and multiply by 4. That would cover your overhead such as labor, sandpaper, tool use, electricity etc… Then add a factor based on market and uniqueness of the item. Any thoughts on this??


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## kenpike (Nov 2, 2014)

I have been building custom furniture & cabinets part time for over 35 years. When I was starting out, much younger, keener & trusting, I would give detailed, itemized estimates with a nice drawing & cutting list - which took a fair bit of time to assemble. Found a few prospective customers then used my prepared info to get quotes elsewhere & generally didn't see them again. Last 25 years or so I keep my cutting list, rough sketches & only provide a finished price, 50% in cash at time of order, balance before piece leaves the shop, delivery extra. I generally can generate enough work to keep busy for 6 mo. during the Winter then move to our cottage for 6 mo.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I ran into the same thing kenpike did when I was contracting (not wood working) years ago. Folks just would "pick my brain" then have others do it or do it themselves. I also prefer to make an item and then sell it rather than do custom orders. A lot less headache. I do get a lot of ideas from doing custom orders though.
Using the idea of multiplying the material cost by four would not work in my experience. That method comes out with much too low a sales price. I use the old method of "whatever the market will bare" for pricing. The buyer does not care how long it took to make an item. I look at my finished item and ask myself, "How much would I pay for it" Then if that price is too low to suit me I do not make it and move on to another project. ( Easy for me to say because I do not depend on woodworking to earn a living).


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

The Chipcarver said *"It's sad how the world has become."* To some degree that's probably true, but my wife and I recently bought a custom dining table from an artisan in the Phila area - John Landis - and we couldn't be happier.

I am a woodworker, but I'm not at *that level*, so my wife and I were thrilled when this table was delivered. Now he's making 4 chairs for us!

Customers like me and my wife are out there, but maybe not at all the craft shows. I think Monte has learned which shows yield real leads and which ones don't.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I picture a time, say in 100 years, when Antiques Roadshow will feature some Ikea item-provided that sawdust held together with snot can last that long.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm reading this with some interest now that I'm retired. I won't be doing remodeling or custom cabinetry (except for myself). runswithscissors, I think that your assessment of the quality provides an answer to what will be for sale in 100 years from Ikea. I don't think it will last that long. Also, people who buy a lot of that sort of thing just put it out with the trash when it breaks, People put old stuff at the curb, it gets taken and hopefully repurposed, at the least. But the Ikea stuff ends up getting picked up by the "bulk pickup" truck, and goes to the dump. It just isn't that good. People buy it, in my opinion, for short term use, because it is cheap, and end up using it less time than they expected due to the quality of the construction. An observation that I will make, that applies to more than automobiles- anything of quality is purchased by persons of means; these persons also have the means to maintain those items. Case in point. I worked for many years as a mechanic, at some dealerships. The cheaper the car (think Chevy Vega), the less likely the person was to maintain it properly. Someone buying a Cadillac has the money to start with, and will pay for the required maintenance. How many Chevy Vegas do you see on the road, now?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Interesting reading through these responses. Doesn't seem to matter whether it is wood or wire, the customer issues are about the same.



> I'll get paid what I'm worth for a change. Of course at the moment, I can afford to be like that. Wasn't always the case and may not be in the future.
> - barringerwoodworks


You just never know what tomorrow will bring. When I started to recover from Topamax poisoning, the first job was to bail out an old customer, reestablish the relationship even though my prior reputation carried the day, and to start cash flow. Any cash flow!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

heres a new philosophy as not to repeat so many valid points and concerns but before I write this out let me first paraphrase something that a lot of people forget. being in business is all bout turning a profit, so its very important to remove the "romance" and replace emotions with objectivity. Remember, you have to make a profit to invest in R & D.

The first thing I look for in a client and or me, is a thing I call PAIN. Pain can be inventory, drawings, specifications, down time for me, down time for the client, tooling, delivery, installation and all the time that is involved getting it right.

If you can show a client the PAIN, theres a good chance you can also show them the RISK, and also a good chance you can explain the savings, the profitability of choosing me, over the next guy. I dont bother spending a nickel on anyone who is shopping at the big box stores, but in the event they might engage in a product I can buy wholesale from a big manufacturer…... Im in, cause I can turn a profit while turning over very little paper and why not…... why should I give my profit for the short lived moment of making a custom piece, that yields a loss on the balance sheet.

To lower your costs, identify your own PAIN, where there is pain, there is probably risk, get rid of both to bring a profit. For example, many places stock an infinite amount of cabinet hinges, from 1/4 over lay, 3/8 overlay. full overlay, and so on and so forth….. they are expensive so why not use 1 hinge, and stock just plates, less footprint, less money, more profit. Another example would be drawers, so the romance begins and you try and sell or price dovetailed drawers, then add fancy drawer guides. Maybe instead you buy dovetailed drawers that all made to your specs, finished and machined for hardware, delivered to your door for less then you can buy just the materials. The romance is gone, as is the pain, and the risk, and the profits jump 10fold : ) I could go on forever with examples but suffice to say I think I made my point.

Except for the odd show, most home shows, booths are pointless, no money, no clients, few sales and lots of pain but are the exceptions, shows that people go to where their home is paid for, where there million dollar cottage is paid for, where they have thick wallets and for this, the last thing they are interested in, is what they can buy in a big box store.

Tips. Try doing a weekly newsletter and email it out to a BCC'ld list of potential clients, builders, mechanical supply companies, bathroom fixture companies, real estate agents, kitchen manufacturers, and every client you've ever had. maybe include before and after pictures, delivered on time, on budget. Maybe approach a popular real estate agent and give them a 5 to 10 % kickback (just add the amount to the tender, why would you do this….. simple. If a real estate agent is showing a home and the only thing holding the buyer back, is an ugly kitchen, they might just suggest they visit you because that might cinch the deal in the sale of the home.

You might even include building yards. In Canada last year, there was over 20 billion dollars spent in renovations. Of that 20 billion, 40% was spent on bath and kitchen renos. I am shocked at how many building yards don't include a kitchen showroom where the return on a small footprint, is almost 40%, where the huge sheds that store drywall and lumber, return about 10% or less. For every dollar spent on a bath kitchen, another 2 dollars are spent on other reno products.

Loose the EGO if you have one. Its my worst enemy. Doing what you think they want vs what they really want,..... a deal breaker

On that newsletter that gets sent out once a week/month…... its surprising how quickly potential clients look forward to seeing a new project, even if they close their check book, if sent often enough, the potential for a referral grows, amazing how many previous clients forget your contact info, ..... its free, and only takes a little discipline

Find pain, remove risk, increase profits


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