# Domino vs dowel



## lightning33 (Jan 3, 2019)

Watching a bunch of YouTube videos regarding building a table, it seems the "gold standard" is the use of a Domino from Festool. What is the real difference between a domino vs a dowel of the same size? What about 2 x dowels right next to each other?

Just curious.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

The idea that Domino joinery is stronger than dowel joinery is erroneous in my opinion. It depends on the situation. When Festool makes the comparison, they use one Domino and one dowel. Of course, that is just stupid. A person can use as many dowels on a joint as he can physically make holes for. I use the Dowelmax jig and it makes it easy to put an array of dowels to do the best job for the particular joint you are working on. I haven't used a Domino cutter but it seems like a nice, if wildly overpriced, floating tenon cutter. I just don't think it can make a stronger joint than a skilled user of a good dowel jig. If you go on the Dowelmax website, you can see comparisons of various joint methodology with calibrated destructive testing. I think the Domino is among the methods. Of course you have to consider the source but that is true of the Festool claims as well. "Strongest" is often a meaningless term anyway. In most cases, all the joinery techniques are gross overkill and you would need to do incredible violence to a project to tell any practical difference after it is complete.


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## josephf (Aug 29, 2012)

i have the domino . i am sure that in most projects strength is not the issue . either method is plenty strong .the domino is a system .it is far faster to work with . i use it in joinery trimming houses .imagine the time involved if i put a couple of dowels at the miters of all the window casing in a house . it might be more accurate to compare biscuits to the domino tenon . biscuits have a little wiggle in the joint ,while domino register the joint tight . if your dowels work for you keep at it . they are more hands on ,far less expensive and work very well


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

You're comparing loose tenons to dowels. While I'd bet using the Domino for loose tenons would be easier, I'd also bet the difference in strength is strictly academic.


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## lightning33 (Jan 3, 2019)

I'm a beginner, so excuse the ignorance, but isn't a dowel simply a round floating tenon?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Doweling can be wildly over priced too;

https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-dd40p-duo-dowel-system


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Dowel joinery has been around for hundreds of years. It is up to the user as to how secure the joint is. Convenience (domino) is one thing, but good joints can be made using dowels. The domino just substitutes convenience for skill. Personally, I like the idea of perfecting a skill over depending on a machine to do it for me.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> Doweling can be wildly over priced too;
> 
> https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-dd40p-duo-dowel-system
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Definitely a non-contender.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Doweling can be wildly over priced too;
> 
> https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-dd40p-duo-dowel-system
> 
> ...


why?


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Yes!


> I m a beginner, so excuse the ignorance, but isn t a dowel simply a round floating tenon?
> 
> - lightning33


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Dowels were around long before the Domino. Perfectly suitable.

But, I will tell you the Domino was a game changer for me in my shop.

One big advantage to the Domino is if you make the opposite insertion slot one size wider than the domino, alignment is much easier.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

The Domino was a complete game changer after 18+ years of a variety of projects. Your work should be strong enough without a dowel or a domino. Neither is meant to make wood stronger.

For lining up, joining, and the flexibility of the domino… this is a great tool. Get the right size to your average workpiece. I have the 500 and it does a fine job, for large farm tables you would want to XL. If I get to that point, I will buy the larger one in addition to mine.










I was able to prep all the parts for my last project within about 30 minutes including marking, drilling, and testing and everything was perfect when I dry fit it.


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## Notw (Aug 7, 2013)

So just to add a wrench in the gears, how about domino to biscuit? I can see doing dowels somewhere a little bit of strength is required but if it for alignment of panels is there a benefit to the domino over biscuits? Seems like setup and use time would be about the same.


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

I "think" the domino simply brings speed, accuracy and convenience to the game. We have been making great furniture for centuries without it, so it is not anything new (floating tenon is just that).

So if you want to make fast accurate floating tenons, they are hard to beat. I don't have one, but if I did I would use it from time to time. There are a number of popular YouTube woodworkers that are doing projects with them, so folks think that is how it is done. The joint could just as easily have dowels or floating tenons or just a regular mortise and tenon.

I do have to say that prior to dropping over a grand on a hand tool for floating tenons, I would buy a much better hollow chisel mortiser for the shop.


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## PPK (Mar 8, 2016)

> Watching a bunch of YouTube videos regarding building a table, it seems the "gold standard" is the use of a Domino from Festool. What is the real difference between a domino vs a dowel of the same size? What about 2 x dowels right next to each other?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> - lightning33


I've been wondering the same thing… I was actually tossing around the idea of getting the Triton dowel machine. https://bistritontools.com/tdj600-triton-doweling-jointer-710w.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAjszhBRDgARIsAH8Kgvd0SQagPCsIOHFSa5r61EkUHXrDDwIV7VkVcyRrTqls5vxKJM9wuO0aAh0gEALw_wcB 
I refuse to buy and over-priced Festool anything  (Not intended to be fighting words, just I am one of those guys that doesn't see the value worth the price)


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I like dominos better then dowels. The weird thing with dowels is they seem like they are too loose or too tight.
Dominos are pretty easy to make dowels. And dowels are not


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> The Domino was a complete game changer after 18+ years of a variety of projects. Your work should be strong enough without a dowel or a domino. Neither is meant to make wood stronger.
> 
> For lining up, joining, and the flexibility of the domino… this is a great tool. Get the right size to your average workpiece. I have the 500 and it does a fine job, for large farm tables you would want to XL. If I get to that point, I will buy the larger one in addition to mine.
> 
> ...


totally agree im building a dresser right now and used it yesterday,saved me a lot of time.yeah there expensive but for the quality of the tool,you get what you pay for.i also wouldn't compare a domino to a bisquit,totally different tool.i also used my bisquit jointer putting together the top,works great for keeping boards aligned during glue up.you you cant see the value in a domino dont waste your money,but i consider mine well spent for what i do.i never hesitate investing in quality tools.


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## brtech (May 26, 2010)

A biscuit is an alignment aid. While it does add some strength to the joint, that's not what it's used for. It's used to hold boards aligned to one another. Both dowels and floating tenons strengthen a joint as well as provide alignment. The Domino is a game changer for me also. I struggled with dowels. The Domino machine just works. Yes, verrrrrrry expensive. Worth it.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> Doweling can be wildly over priced too;
> 
> https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-dd40p-duo-dowel-system
> 
> ...


Too expensive for what it does. Maybe a production shop could benefit from one, but much too expensive for the DIY'er. That's why.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well i guess the same could be said for the domino,the mafell does dowels the domino does tenons,their both useful tools that save time.i mean if you would only use the tool a few times a year yeah probably not worth the cost but if you have regular use for it why not.maybe the ones that put these tools down are the one's that cant afford them?id buy the domino again in a heart beat.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

Mafell double dowel
Festool domino
Lamello biscuit joiner

All are the best at what they do, and all the lesser expensive versions (if they exist) are severely lacking. Can you get by with less, sure, just not as quickly or efficiently.

As for the domino vs the dowel, the domino like all floating tenons has more face grain to face grain surface contact than a dowel. Is that worth $1500, maybe not but the efficiency is to some.

Are you in the shop to relax and enjoy the process or are you just trying to get in get out and get it done.


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## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

Are you talking about the tabletop or the fame and legs? For the top, dominoes and dowels are overkill. I use a biscuits on long glue-ups like that, but it is more to line everything up. a dowel or a domino would also line things up, but either would be overkill. I don't have a festool domino but when I [hopefully] buy one someday, it will be for the speed and convenience. I can see it being a game-changer for productivity.

For the legs and frame, I would guess that dominos vs dowels of the same surface area would be pretty even. I saw this video last week that showed old-fashioned mortise and tenons beating dominoes in strength tests. If your #1 priority is strength, mortise and tenons may be your best bet.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Are you talking about the tabletop or the fame and legs? For the top, dominoes and dowels are overkill. I use a biscuits on long glue-ups like that, but it is more to line everything up. a dowel or a domino would also line things up, but either would be overkill. I don t have a festool domino but when I [hopefully] buy one someday, it will be for the speed and convenience. I can see it being a game-changer for productivity.
> 
> For the legs and frame, I would guess that dominos vs dowels of the same surface area would be pretty even. I saw this video last week that showed old-fashioned mortise and tenons beating dominoes in strength tests. If your #1 priority is strength, mortise and tenons may be your best bet.
> 
> ...


The only overkill I see in that video is the amount of glue he slops in the mortises.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Are you talking about the tabletop or the fame and legs? For the top, dominoes and dowels are overkill. I use a biscuits on long glue-ups like that, but it is more to line everything up. a dowel or a domino would also line things up, but either would be overkill. I don t have a festool domino but when I [hopefully] buy one someday, it will be for the speed and convenience. I can see it being a game-changer for productivity.
> 
> For the legs and frame, I would guess that dominos vs dowels of the same surface area would be pretty even. I saw this video last week that showed old-fashioned mortise and tenons beating dominoes in strength tests. If your #1 priority is strength, mortise and tenons may be your best bet.
> 
> ...


i dont know ag can you ever really have too much glue-lol. from the test id say the domino has all the strength most situations will ever need.just gotta stock up on glue-LOL.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The Domino can be used to make mortises. It's very accurate then square the round ends with a chisel. 
That's pretty nifty.
The Other half would be called a integral tenon. The reason for this is to sculpt or shape parts floating tenons are limiting.


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## avsmusic1 (Jul 10, 2016)

> Are you talking about the tabletop or the fame and legs? For the top, dominoes and dowels are overkill. I use a biscuits on long glue-ups like that, but it is more to line everything up. a dowel or a domino would also line things up, but either would be overkill. I don t have a festool domino but when I [hopefully] buy one someday, it will be for the speed and convenience. I can see it being a game-changer for productivity.
> 
> For the legs and frame, I would guess that dominos vs dowels of the same surface area would be pretty even. I saw this video last week that showed old-fashioned mortise and tenons beating dominoes in strength tests. If your #1 priority is strength, mortise and tenons may be your best bet.
> 
> ...


Agree here
For a DIYer I'd say the "gold standard" on support structure is M&T and the top it's neither domino or dowel


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Morning all,
I,ve read this forum top to bottom.

Over the last month or so I,ve been asking people here at Lumberjocks how they do there laminating and joining for various projects. Personally, I often join wood using nothing more than wood glue and a clamp, (no tenon , floating tenon or dowel) "Clearly this has to change." I,ve been reading around and it seems that the Festool DF500 is beyond anything else *in its class.* However, whilst exploring I came across the Dowelmax system, the reviews seem awesome and it became clear that it seems to be in the top of anything else *in its class.*

My workshop is tiny , I don,t build production items , I dont have time constraints and within reason and if i can i,d kind of prefer to use a hand tool.

*Soo Inview of.*

*1) *Tiny workshop with not much tool storage

*2)* No production line of multiple items

*3)* No time constarints

*4) *No exhaust vac system that I believe is required for DF500

*5) *Hands on system with no power required (yes battery drill is required for dowelmax)

I ordered a dowelmax yesterday from the manufactures and with a few accessories achieved free delivery to here in Hong Kong.

I,m hoping and I would be open to comment on this. 
I,m hoping I will be able to achieve most things with the dowelmax that I can with the festool DF500. (albeit less efficiently). 
Please comment.

Kind Regards
Anthony

*
EDIT:* One of my problems was, do I go for the metric dowel max or the imperial dowelmax? I went imperial and am open for comments on this.

P.S , If I dont like it I,l go out and buy a DF500


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

What kind of wood do you have to work with in Hong Kong Anthony?
The cool thing about dominos is they can be made from scraps of the wood your using.
Dowels can be made but are more fussy to get right.
I guess you could always just buy the dominos $$$ but they are usually tight and need fiddling.

So what is Anthony doing in Hong Kong?


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> What kind of wood do you have to work with in Hong Kong Anthony?
> The cool thing about dominos is they can be made from scraps of the wood your using.
> Dowels can be made but are more fussy to get right.
> I guess you could always just buy the dominos $$$ but they are usually tight and need fiddling.
> ...


Morning,
Interesting to hear that the dominos are often too tight.
I recently bought one of those dowel maker jigs from Lee valley, haven't used it yet though, not sure how it will go.

Kind Regard
Anthony


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

*The only overkill I see in that video is the amount of glue he slops in the mortises. 

- AlaskaGuy

i dont know ag can you ever really have too much glue-lol. from the test id say the domino has all the strength most situations will ever need.just gotta stock up on glue-LOL.*

- pottz
[/QUOTE]
Are you serious ? Too much glue is a waste, makes a big mess to clean up thus it also waste time, shop rags and can get all over your hands, clothes and you'll find some you missed when you start finishing. I just can't find any pluses to using too much glue. I always try to keep my glue to minimum.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Morning,
> Interesting to hear that the dominos are often too tight.
> I recently bought one of those dowel maker jigs from Lee valley, haven t used it yet though, not sure how it will go.
> 
> ...


Go to the 5:20 mark of this video. I have to do the same thing often.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> - anthm27
> Go to the 5:20 mark of this video. I have to do the same thing often.
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, Cheers,
In that video I still think I can achieve the same end result with the dowelmax that the festool is achieving.
Regards
Anthony


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Domino, is scary fast, just mark your spots on both pieces and go. So darn expensive though, did I mention they cost as much as some peoples car?

Dowels can be just as strong, and today's jigs make them pretty foolproof to use. Prices are 25 to 80 bux, No Idea what Alaska was looking at?

I have had the General jig a long time, mine is different than current one, more like the Grizzly, and Milescraft models. Mine works really well, but they will take more time to use them over a Domino.

Google for best Dowel jigs, looked like a lot of them, sometimes the link to pages give you great idea of what you would get, or be able to do. It is critical it can join edge-to-edge, right angle and edge-to-surface


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Speed Domino, huge price

over

Slower Dowels, quite affordable.

So average shop guy can do very similar holding with the slower dowels, and save a TON of cash. Regular shop guys buying a Domino is silly money in my estimation. They used to call it the "Green Flu" not sure now because it seems to be epidemic. I've found for every "Green Tool" there is a much lower priced tool, that you can do same work for less $$$$. Especially if you don't mind it taking a few seconds more time. Some of them won't even get you speed, just the ability of saying I have the "green tool" Kapex, routers, drills, are just green, no faster. Arguable they are any better.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Domino, is scary fast, just mark your spots on both pieces and go. So darn expensive though, did I mention they cost as much as some peoples car?
> 
> Dowels can be just as strong, and today s jigs make them pretty foolproof to use. Prices are 25 to 80 bux, No Idea what Alaska was looking at?
> 
> ...


*What I was pointing out in the video was the part were the guy was sanding the domino because it was too tight. I pointed that out just because anthm27 had mentioned that in one of his post. *


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I own a Domino because I like good tools that make woodworking easier, faster and more fun. Domino does all that perfectly.

It's funny, by brother will somethings mention to me what I spend on tools. Yet he's the same guy who bought $60,000 Ford F350 and put a $50,000 camper on it and uses it maybe 3 times a summer. I guess some people think we should all drive Yugo cars. We could save a ton of money and still get there a back.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

If you are traveling in a Yugo, getting there and back is by no means a certainty!

The Dowelmax doweling jig at $250 is not inexpensive but when I bought it, I felt the same way about using dowels as AlaskaGuy did about the Domino. It was easier, faster and more fun. It would be interesting to compare the speed of operation of this jig and the Domino machine. I expect there will be many instances where they are comparable.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> *What I was pointing out in the video was the part were the guy was sanding the domino because it was too tight. I pointed that out just because anthm27 had mentioned that in one of his post. *
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Microwave them.

They will shrink, and when used will eventually swell back locking them in place.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I just make them as needed for free from scraps. 
Dominos are just more precision Then dowels I have proof.
I used dominos on my compound miters.









I've never found dowels to be that accurate.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> *What I was pointing out in the video was the part were the guy was sanding the domino because it was too tight. I pointed that out just because anthm27 had mentioned that in one of his post. *
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> If you are traveling in a Yugo, getting there and back is by no means a certainty!
> 
> - ArtMann


OK, I'll change that to a VW Bug.


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## avsmusic1 (Jul 10, 2016)

> Microwave them.
> 
> They will shrink, and when used will eventually swell back locking them in place.
> 
> - Jared_S


Interesting - I would have never thought of this. I presume it's a release of moisture thing? Otherwise I'd think heat = expansion


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Microwave them.
> 
> They will shrink, and when used will eventually swell back locking them in place.
> 
> ...


Yes, it reduces the MC.


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## Sunstealer73 (Sep 2, 2012)

I've never had to sand a Domino to fit. It's so fast and precise, I sold my hollow chisel mortiser after doing a few projects with the Domino.

I do use the smallest size on really big panel glue-ups, just to help with alignment.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I ve never had to sand a Domino to fit. It s so fast and precise, I sold my hollow chisel mortiser after doing a few projects with the Domino.
> 
> I do use the smallest size on really big panel glue-ups, just to help with alignment.
> 
> - Sunstealer73


same i wish id never bought the mortiser,used it on a g&g table once to do the square plugs probably will never use it again.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

*What I would like to know is. *

Is there any task, joint, or project that the festool domino system can achieve over a dowelling jig system? Not taking into account, cost, efficiency, speed or convenience.

Can the domino system perform a task or joint or project that a doweling jig can not?

Kind regards
Anthony


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> So just to add a wrench in the gears, how about domino to biscuit? I can see doing dowels somewhere a little bit of strength is required but if it for alignment of panels is there a benefit to the domino over biscuits? Seems like setup and use time would be about the same.
> 
> - Notw


Your fingers can line up a board better than a biscuit. The domino is precise enough that when using reclaimed lumber, you can flush the top of a table even without the board thickness matching below. They are really very different.


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

Throwing my hat in the ring of "fans of the domino". I agree with what many have said above, it was a game changing tool to add to my shop. I had been cutting regular mortise and tennon joinery for years, and while I "can" still go that route and I still do from time to time (when through mortise and tennons are needed) In my opinion there is no better way to create a floating tennon. Quick, hyper accurate, flexible in setup or use orientation. I love using it and find that most projects gets some amount of dominos in them.

Whether using the domino to attach face frames to cabinets, strengthening miter joins, adding registration and strength to long bevel joints (so so helpful for that), instantly creating setback reveals for table aprons and of course aligning panels for glue ups… the list goes on and on.

I also think the flexibility it provides with numerous domino sizes and mortise widths to allow for "sideways play" in the joint is also really helpful.

Cost is certainly a consideration, but I don't like to make statments about "what a tool is worth".. its a slippery slope and often gets people into arguments… Everyone should be able to make up their own mind on what they want to spend their money on and decide if that purchase provides (for them) a good value to cost ratio.

When I am looking at tools, reading reviews or talking to folks, I just like to hear about the pros and cons, get an understanding of the benefits that tool may provide, how it could be incorporated into my project workflow etc. Then after gathering the info I can make the value judgement for myself.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Throwing my hat in the ring of "fans of the domino". I agree with what many have said above, it was a game changing tool to add to my shop. I had been cutting regular mortise and tennon joinery for years, and while I "can" still go that route and I still do from time to time (when through mortise and tennons are needed) In my opinion there is no better way to create a floating tennon. Quick, hyper accurate, flexible in setup or use orientation. I love using it and find that most projects gets some amount of dominos in them.
> 
> Whether using the domino to attach face frames to cabinets, strengthening miter joins, adding registration and strength to long bevel joints (so so helpful for that), instantly creating setback reveals for table aprons and of course aligning panels for glue ups… the list goes on and on.
> 
> ...


well stated!


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I don't make my daily bread in my shop… and a long time ago, my dad told me that if I try to turn my hobby into my daily bread, time and stress would take away much of the pleasure.

If I ever nail the lotto, I'll buy a Saw Stop, Domino, and Lie Neilson hand tools…

In the mean time, my $ pay medical bills and college tuition for my kids. My woodworking tool aquisitions go where the winds of opportunity lead me…. whether it's refurbishing old iron, making jigs, or mastering the "old ways" (funny to think that cutting tennons on the TS and Mortices on the chissel morticer are now the old ways). And I've yet to personally find an alignment situation that my biscuit jointer couldn't take care of quite nicely.

FWIW, I'd put a PC biscuit jointer head to head against the Maffel any day.

Pretty soon the Domino will come off patent and the Tawainese will be making great perfomring clones for a fraction of the price.

To each his own… I don't have a dog in anybodies Ford vs. Chevy race…. my sig line says it all.


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Yam is the common name for some plant species in the genus Dioscorea (family Dioscoreaceae) that form edible tubers. Yams are perennial herbaceous vines cultivated for the consumption of their starchy tubers in many temperate and tropical world regions.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> Yam is the common name for some plant species in the genus Dioscorea (family Dioscoreaceae) that form edible tubers. Yams are perennial herbaceous vines cultivated for the consumption of their starchy tubers in many temperate and tropical world regions.
> 
> - ArtMann


LOL. Now I can wrap up my day.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> Yam is the common name for some plant species in the genus Dioscorea (family Dioscoreaceae) that form edible tubers. Yams are perennial herbaceous vines cultivated for the consumption of their starchy tubers in many temperate and tropical world regions.
> 
> - ArtMann


LOL. Now I can wrap up my day.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm tired of waiting for HF to come out with a Domino clone that will sell for $79.95 (minus a 20% off coupon), so I am hereby starting a rumor that such a thing is just around the corner. Of course, if the corner is anything like "turning the corner" was in Vietnam, we could be in for a long wait.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Yam is the common name for some plant species in the genus Dioscorea (family Dioscoreaceae) that form edible tubers. Yams are perennial herbaceous vines cultivated for the consumption of their starchy tubers in many temperate and tropical world regions.
> 
> - ArtMann


So do you use biscuits on domino on your Dioscorea ?


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## Joel_B (Aug 14, 2014)

Just to pile on, I have been using a Domino for the past year and love it.
It is fast, accurate, easy to use, joints have sufficient strength.
Bringing the tool to the wood has advantages, especially when working with large pieces.
Is it fine craftsmanship? NO but I could care less.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Just to pile on, I have been using a Domino for the past year and love it.
> It is fast, accurate, easy to use, joints have sufficient strength.
> Bringing the tool to the wood has advantages, especially when working with large pieces.
> Is it fine craftsmanship? NO but I could care less.
> ...


love mine too and just used it again last weekend,but i disagree about the craftsmanship part.i wouldn't judge a table based on the tools or technique used but on the final product.how one achieves the end result is a matter of preference.some guys dont mind spending a whole day doing what the domino can do in 20 minutes,and thats fine but i get tired of those that keep putting guys down for not doing it the way it was done a hundred years ago.tools arent craftsman,woodworkers are and how we do it it is a matter of preference.im keeping my domino,bisquit joiner and kreg system!


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## jerkylips (May 13, 2011)

So, sort of an off the wall question, but what is the max depth you can set with the domino? I'm wondering if, in addition to using it as designed, you could essentially use it like a mortise, to hog out the majority of the material quickly, then square up the corners with a chisel, for actual M&T joints?

To me, having the ability to do fast joinery with dominos as well as a way to speed up the process for traditional mortises, would add value.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

That's exactly what I've been doing. This is top secret stuff jerky lips. Shhhhh.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well i have the smaller 500 model and the biggest domino is 50mm long so you would only cut to a depth of 1-3/32 its really not designed to do what you suggest,but its possible i guess.the bigger model 700 can cut to 2-3/4, much more.despite the nay sayers,its a hell of a tool,and worth every penny to me.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

You can do that, but getting the mortise centered exactly might take some work. Of course that assumes you want to cut the tenons centered as well.


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## gtrgeo (Mar 22, 2017)

Just to add to the discussion. Has anyone tried the Beadlock system from Rockler? I see these as a 'modified dowel' approach which on the surface would give the strengths of a floating tenon while being closer in methodology/cost to a dowel.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Just to add to the discussion. Has anyone tried the Beadlock system from Rockler? I see these as a modified dowel approach which on the surface would give the strengths of a floating tenon while being closer in methodology/cost to a dowel.
> 
> - gtrgeo


yeah and hated it,id send it to for free but i threw it away years ago-lol.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

For all the DowelMax fan,
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/408072
I built this Chest for all the parts.
I wonder if the Domino tool would fit in the chest???
Regards
Anthm


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> For all the DowelMax fan,
> http://lumberjocks.com/projects/408072
> I built this Chest for all the parts.
> I wonder if the Domino tool would fit in the chest???
> ...


I don't keep my domino in a chest. I keep it out where I can use it.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> For all the DowelMax fan,
> http://lumberjocks.com/projects/408072
> I built this Chest for all the parts.
> I wonder if the Domino tool would fit in the chest???
> ...


Hilarious,
Fare call.
Rofl.
Regards
Anth


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> For all the DowelMax fan,
> http://lumberjocks.com/projects/408072
> I built this Chest for all the parts.
> I wonder if the Domino tool would fit in the chest???
> ...


Glad you took it the way it was meant. Not everybody does.

BTW Good job on the chest.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.
> 
> - MikeDilday


What's the point, really 600 lbs or 1000 lbs. How many of you even no how many pounds of pressure are on your joints or what they should in a project? I have use both domino and dowels. I've never had a joint failure with either. I like the domino better for easy of use. I have had issues with dowels being undersized. The domino's will be a little fat some times. Fat dominos having flat sides are easy to fix.

At the end of the day I doubt any of your project are going to fall apart because you used on system over the other.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


What is your point?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.
> 
> - MikeDilday


Pretty funny, a "test" performed by a dowel jig company. Do you accept tests done by people with a financial interest in the results? I don't.

I've seen tests where the domino kicks dowels skinny butt all over the place.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


Post a link of a video where domino kicks dowels butt. I wasn't able to find any and would love to see it.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Google "domino vs dowels strength". There is a video out there testing dominos and dowels. Dominos broke at 600 pounds and the dowels were holding strong at 1,000 when the wood actually failed and the dowels held strong. I have been using dowels forever and seems like they are more than adequate compared to dominos.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Not sure if it was biased of not. I was considering buying a Domino but wanted to find out if dowels were just as strong or strong enough. The advantages of the Domino over the dowels. Still researching.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Check out the Wood Magazine Joint torture test issue #173. There is a video online.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Not sure if it was biased of not. I was considering buying a Domino but wanted to find out if dowels were just as strong or strong enough. The advantages of the Domino over the dowels. Still researching.
> 
> - MikeDilday


Unless it is an independent test, you kinda have to consider it biased.

I don't have a dowel max, so I can't say which is better, but the domino is pretty fast and seems strong to me.

Festool has a 30 day return policy, I believe. Give it a try.

P.S. I was making a joke about the dowels.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Not sure if it was biased of not. I was considering buying a Domino but wanted to find out if dowels were just as strong or strong enough. The advantages of the Domino over the dowels. Still researching.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


Didn't know they had a 30 day return policy. Hmmm tempting.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

- AlaskaGuy

What is your point?

- MikeDilday

[/QUOTE]My point is that whether we choose dominos or dowels in our projects I doubt they will fail. Or, either a dowel a domino will work. For the sake of discussion I'll say the dowel is far superior to the domino, but the domino is still strong enough for the job. And in my personal use I say the domino quicker and faster.

Understand now?








</a>


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i agree AG that horse is dead.unless your making chairs for 500ib people to sit in why worry about it,use whatever floats your boat and budget,they will all work just fine.


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Odd. I guess this topic comes up a lot. Personally I don't use either, but do from time to time use a dowel to pin a joint that is already established with a mortise and tenon.

I think having the expensive rig would make me change the way I designed projects, so that may help.


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## laterthanuthink (Jan 17, 2018)

Be sure to look into the dowel max. I like mine a lot. The guy who makes and sells the dowel max will argue all day long that dowels are stronger but I really don't know. I do know you can get into a dowel system for a lot less money than a domino. You can always upgrade to the domino later and you will still be happy to own the dowel max.

https://www.dowelmax.com/

https://www.mcfeelys.com/dowelmax-jr-kit-qty-1-41u674.html


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

It is all in the geometry. One domino will be stronger than one dowel in every case. However, that is not how people use dominos or dowels. You can construct an array of one or several rows of dowels that will be stronger than dominos simply because you can use more of them in a more optimal geometry. You can't do it with a cheap self centering dowel jig though.

Just because a manufacturer does experiments that prove their product design, that doesn't mean the test is invalid. You have to look at how they did it. For example, Festool produced a misleading video comparing the use of one dowel to one domino, which is almost never the way dowels are used. The experiment proved nothing at all.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> It is all in the geometry. One domino will be stronger than one dowel in every case. However, that is not how people use dominos or dowels. You can construct an array of one or several rows of dowels that will be stronger than dominos simply because you can use more of them in a more optimal geometry. You can t do it with a cheap self centering dowel jig though.
> 
> Just because a manufacturer does experiments that prove their product design, that doesn t mean the test is invalid. You have to look at how they did it. For example, Festool produced a misleading video comparing the use of one dowel to one domino, which is almost never the way dowels are used. The experiment proved nothing at all.
> 
> - ArtMann


It doesn't mean it's invalid, but one should be suspicious. Were the dominos the same length? Is 5 dowels to 2 dominos valid?


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## BalsaWood (Mar 25, 2015)

They both provide strong joints. Simple as that.


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

> Pretty soon the Domino will come off patent and the Tawainese will be making great perfomring clones for a fraction of the price.
> - Mainiac Matt


I can't wait, $900 is just too much


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

It would be a valid comparison in the situation where only 2 dominos could be accommodated but 5 dowels could be used. That might be a realistic scenario in a few situations.



> It doesn't mean it's invalid, but one should be suspicious. Were the dominos the same length? Is 5 dowels to 2 dominos valid?
> 
> - RobS888


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> It would be a valid comparison in the situation where only 2 dominos could be accommodated but 5 dowels could be used. That might be a realistic scenario in a few situations.
> 
> It doesn't mean it's invalid, but one should be suspicious. Were the dominos the same length? Is 5 dowels to 2 dominos valid?
> 
> ...


Possibly realistic, but I've watched the dowel max videos and they use holes 1,2,4,&5, so if they don't teach that…

Anyway to each his own, I have an XL with both domino kits and could make very strong butt joints. Have you seen the size of the 14mm dominos?


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Since this thread keeps bumping around, what is the logic of a comparison? Each if used correctly produces a great joint in terms of strength, alignment and ease. Traditional mortise and tenon does as well. I am not certain who is needing such massive strength in a joint and if they need it why they are using either approach if their needs are so extreme.

They are each pretty cool time savers vs traditional joinery, as is a much maligned biscuit. I used to use dowels to align work for glue up. Now I use biscuits. I never thought to compare the strength of the two as I typically don't use such methods for joints that need strength as that is typically a mortise and tenon.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Since this thread keeps bumping around, what is the logic of a comparison? Each if used correctly produces a great joint in terms of strength, alignment and ease. Traditional mortise and tenon does as well. I am not certain who is needing such massive strength in a joint and if they need it why they are using either approach if their needs are so extreme.
> 
> They are each pretty cool time savers vs traditional joinery, as is a much maligned biscuit. I used to use dowels to align work for glue up. Now I use biscuits. I never thought to compare the strength of the two as I typically don t use such methods for joints that need strength as that is typically a mortise and tenon.
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


Sorry that my post annoyed you by bumping to the top, I'd suggest you just ignore it from now on.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> Since this thread keeps bumping around, what is the logic of a comparison? Each if used correctly produces a great joint in terms of strength, alignment and ease. Traditional mortise and tenon does as well. I am not certain who is needing such massive strength in a joint and if they need it why they are using either approach if their needs are so extreme.
> 
> They are each pretty cool time savers vs traditional joinery, as is a much maligned biscuit. I used to use dowels to align work for glue up. Now I use biscuits. I never thought to compare the strength of the two as I typically don t use such methods for joints that need strength as that is typically a mortise and tenon.
> 
> - BlueRidgeDog


The domino is a whole new level of precision and strength and it's quick quicker then you can know till you have one.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Funny, I saw this thread pop up again and a few minutes later saw a Dowelmax ad on Youtube comparing dowels vs Dominoes in a strength test. Personally I don't care which is stronger, I don't use either one currently but it was interesting. The 1×4 lumber could hold 2 dominoes or 4 dowels. The dominoes failed at 600 ft/lb and the dowel joint failed at 900 ft/lbs (the dowels didn't break, the wood around them broke). I'm never going to subject a table to that kind of stress and besides a real table has 4 sides connected, the whole is stronger is than the sum of it's parts, so either one would be fine but it's fodder for the folks who fret over such things.


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## laterthanuthink (Jan 17, 2018)

The dowel max is one of my treasured tools. Precise. Designed, built and sold by a small time engineer/entrepreneur in Vancouver BC Canada. I love me some festool too. Some day I will own a domino and I will treasure it also. There is room for both in your shop. The dowel max is a fraction of the cost of a domino if cost is an issue.

However, I do think my next festool purchase will be the Shaper Origin Handheld CNC router.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Funny, I saw this thread pop up again and a few minutes later saw a Dowelmax ad on Youtube comparing dowels vs Dominoes in a strength test. Personally I don t care which is stronger, I don t use either one currently but it was interesting. The 1×4 lumber could hold 2 dominoes or 4 dowels. The dominoes failed at 600 ft/lb and the dowel joint failed at 900 ft/lbs (the dowels didn t break, the wood around them broke). I m never going to subject a table to that kind of stress and besides a real table has 4 sides connected, the whole is stronger is than the sum of it s parts, so either one would be fine but it s fodder for the folks who fret over such things.
> 
> - Woodknack


It was 5 dowels in the video I saw.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

5 dowels, you're correct, my mistake.


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## Putttn (Feb 29, 2012)

I owned one of the first Dominos but sold it because of issues with registering. Some of the first ones had a problem. I purchased the Jessem 8350 and it has been great to work with. Way too expensive compared to the Jessem and not that much easier or stronger.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

What s the point, really 600 lbs or 1000 lbs. How many of you even no how many pounds of pressure are on your joints or what they should in a project?

- AlaskaGuy
[/QUOTE]

Eggzactly. Most of the time it's to make a part used on a face frame. 600# of pressure, whatchagonna do run a car into it?

Essentially the only thing I can think of to explain the difference is:

Domino is scary fast way for someone who is getting paid by the minute to assemble something, less minutes = mo money.

Dowels, have been used for a few centuries, so they are pretty reliable, not nearly as fast, require a bit of understanding of some wood properties, BUT they can be done a LOT cheaper than a Domino. So for a hobbiest it is the most common sense of the 2 choices.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> Funny, I saw this thread pop up again and a few minutes later saw a Dowelmax ad on Youtube comparing dowels vs Dominoes in a strength test.
> 
> - Woodknack


That is Google at work. I think they are the evil empire, but thats a different thing. It seems they have gotten so good you only have to think of something, and there it will pop up. Scary kind of Satan that is. YouTube has changed a lot already, it will just decline before they are making you pay to view.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Funny, I saw this thread pop up again and a few minutes later saw a Dowelmax ad on Youtube comparing dowels vs Dominoes in a strength test.
> 
> - Woodknack
> 
> ...


Are there non-scary kinds of Satan?


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Probably not. Keep thinking it when you are online, Google will no doubt send you a message. If it says Booo, well you have an answer for sure.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Probably not. Keep thinking it when you are online, Google will no doubt send you a message. If it says Booo, well you have an answer for sure.
> 
> - therealSteveN


Could you explain that, I don't follow… is Google Satan to you?


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Just to keep this thing going and stir things up a little around here,

I honestly don,t see how Dominos could win over Dowels on this particular project.

Regards
Anthm


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Just to keep this thing going and stir things up a little around here,
> 
> I honestly don,t see how Dominos could win over Dowels on this particular project.
> 
> ...


Have you ever use a domino? If the answer is no then maybe that's why.

Edit to add:
Win is probably the wrong term. Either dowels or dominos would build that project just fine. I have used both dowels and dominos. My personal experience says I take the domino.


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

After reading all these comments, maybe I need to recalibrate my Domino. I haven't been happy with the accuracy of lining up edges, faces, whatever. They are never perfectly flush. The Dowelmax seems to be idiot-proof, which might be what I need. Also, in every test I could find the dowel joints were significantly stronger joints than Dominos. Anyone not like the Dowlmax?

I"ll buy the Dowelmax and maybe make a video showing the time and accuracy of both devices and let the internet tell me everything I do wrong. Then I will stand and jump on the projects, maybe drive over them with my truck…..., all the normal things we do day-to-day with our furniture.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

> After reading all these comments, maybe I need to recalibrate my Domino. I haven't been happy with the accuracy of lining up edges, faces, whatever. They are never perfectly flush. The Dowelmax seems to be idiot-proof, which might be what I need. Also, in every test I could find the dowel joints were significantly stronger joints than Dominos. Anyone not like the Dowlmax?
> 
> I"ll buy the Dowelmax and maybe make a video showing the time and accuracy of both devices and let the internet tell me everything I do wrong. Then I will stand and jump on the projects, maybe drive over them with my truck…..., all the normal things we do day-to-day with our furniture.
> 
> - Newbie17


Commercial joinery machines use air clamps to hold the work. The Dowelmax mimics that. The Domino doesn't.

I have a Mafell doweler and a Jessem dowel jig. The Jessem jig clamps and the Mafell is like the Domino, based on a biscuit joiner. The jig's joints are more consistently flush.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I won't get into a discussion of which is stronger. In my experience ( 15-20 years with a domino) is plenty strong enough for cabinet furniture. And the domino is so quick and easy to use.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

ive had a domino for several years now and love it,as far as accuracy thats gonna depend on how well the tool is held to the work,if it moves even a tiny bit your alignment will be off.as far as strength i seriously doubt a round dowel is gonna be stronger than an oval dowel.id say both are stronger than you will ever need.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> After reading all these comments, maybe I need to recalibrate my Domino. I haven't been happy with the accuracy of lining up edges, faces, whatever. They are never perfectly flush. The Dowelmax seems to be idiot-proof, which might be what I need. Also, in every test I could find the dowel joints were significantly stronger joints than Dominos. Anyone not like the Dowlmax?
> 
> I"ll buy the Dowelmax and maybe make a video showing the time and accuracy of both devices and let the internet tell me everything I do wrong. Then I will stand and jump on the projects, maybe drive over them with my truck…..., all the normal things we do day-to-day with our furniture.
> 
> - Newbie17


It depends on how big your workshop is and how much money you want to spend.

Dowelmax once learned is an awesome tool. I will say though it can be a little slow, having said that for a noncommercial operation who really cares? My shop was Tiny and dowel Max was a game-changer. Great strong Joinery. Personally I love dowelmax. If you'd like to see some of the things I've done with dowelmax visit my projects page. I dowel a lot.

Cheers
Anthm


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

This is just a hobby for me and perfection is more important than time to some extent, soooooo I bought the Dowelmax as well. I'll be testing it against the baby Domino. I'm thinking I'll do 3 types of tests:
1. Face mitre joint, like a picture frame
2. Plain butt joint simulating a shelf, instead of dado. Maybe compared with a dado joint as well.
3. "Face" butt joint or 10 year old me "butt face joint". Like a picture frame, but without the mitre.

After I receive the 45 degree accessory, I'll do an end mitre joint as well.

Any input as to how to perform the test in a useful way? Type of wood, size of Domino, number of dowels, thickness of wood. The Dowelmax uses 3/8" dowels. I may buy other sizes depending on what I think after the tests.

I wish I wasn't so science minded, but maybe it will help someone make a decision about using one of these for their situation in the future. I am completely and totally unbiased and could care less which one wins because I own both and plan on keeping them.


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

> It depends on how big your workshop is and how much money you want to spend.
> 
> Dowelmax once learned is an awesome tool. I will say though it can be a little slow, having said that for a noncommercial operation who really cares? My shop was Tiny and dowel Max was a game-changer. Great strong Joinery. Personally I love dowelmax. If you d like to see some of the things I ve done with dowelmax visit my projects page. I dowel a lot.
> 
> ...


Thanks for directing me to your projects. You do use a lot of dowels. Glad to see they've worked well for you. Your results look very clean and precise, which is what I'm hoping to achieve. For non-structural parts, I'll likely stick with the fast Domino, but I may be using a lot of dowels in the future for strong joints if my test results point that direction.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> This is just a hobby for me and perfection is more important than time to some extent, soooooo I bought the Dowelmax as well. I'll be testing it against the baby Domino. I'm thinking I'll do 3 types of tests:
> 1. Face mitre joint, like a picture frame
> 2. Plain butt joint simulating a shelf, instead of dado. Maybe compared with a dado joint as well.
> 3. "Face" butt joint or 10 year old me "butt face joint". Like a picture frame, but without the mitre.
> ...





> This is just a hobby for me and perfection is more important than time to some extent, soooooo I bought the Dowelmax as well. I'll be testing it against the baby Domino. I'm thinking I'll do 3 types of tests:
> 1. Face mitre joint, like a picture frame
> 2. Plain butt joint simulating a shelf, instead of dado. Maybe compared with a dado joint as well.
> 3. "Face" butt joint or 10 year old me "butt face joint". Like a picture frame, but without the mitre.
> ...


well i hate to tell you but the types of tests you want to do have been done by many,just look em up.i hope you didn't spend a lot just to personally test them yourself?


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

I use dowels and I use Dominoes. I don't have a Dowelmax, though I've been considering buying one for at least a dozen years.

Both dowels and Dominoes have served me well, provided I do my part, with layout and securing the work pieces to make he wood doesn't move. By the way, I also use biscuits and Miller dowels. There's a place for all, but not all in every place.


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## Peteybadboy (Jan 23, 2013)

I was going to cut mortis and tendons with my mortiser, but I'm going to use the XL700 today. This thread is a good read. Thanks to all.


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## tdwilli1 (Jan 21, 2014)

> ive had a domino for several years now and love it,as far as accuracy thats gonna depend on how well the tool is held to the work,if it moves even a tiny bit your alignment will be off.as far as strength i seriously doubt a round dowel is gonna be stronger than an oval dowel.id say both are stronger than you will ever need.
> 
> - pottz


Your point about having to be so precise in doing the plunge is why I sold my 500. Probably just me but I could never get a joint to line up flush with it. Went through 2 or 3 cabinet builds and gave up and sold it. I ordered the DowelMax and have much better success on getting joints flush.


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## HarveyM (Nov 11, 2012)

Micheal Fortune did a piece in Fine Woodworking issue 227 on getting accurate joints with a biscuit jointer. Since the 500 has a similar design it might work for it too. The problem being the tool moves when the cutter contacts the work. Micheal's solution was to anchor the tool to a 16"x24" plywood base. The work piece is then clamped or held by a temporary fence. It's slower, but less chance of bad cuts.


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## them700project (Aug 12, 2015)

I have the domino because im the wrong person to give a CC to. I like it for its ease of use/ quick and strong joinery.

Im not sure even if it were stronger than dowels that would be necessary. The glue alone is usually enough. doweling is fine but the domino is a nice luxury

I primarily like it for alignment, and i like it over biscuits because you can over mortise one side so that you can get a little play but have both faces still register together.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Each tool has its plus and minuses. My biggest complaint with dowels was consistency of dowels sizes. Some a little to loose and some to tight. The dominoes have been very consonant. If anything a bit too tight easily fixed (because of their flat sides) with a couple swipes on a piece of sandpaper. I found sanding round dowels down a of bit a PITA. Now I have use dowels since getting my domino so maybe dowels have gotten more consistence these days.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

> Each tool has its plus and minuses. My biggest complaint with dowels was consistency of dowels sizes. Some a little to loose and some to tight. The dominoes have been very consonant. If anything a bit too tight easily fixed (because of their flat sides) with a couple swipes on a piece of sandpaper. I found sanding round dowels down a of bit a PITA. Now I have use dowels since getting my domino so maybe dowels have gotten more consistence these days.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Dowels can be shrunk in a toaster oven or "shop oven" (coffee can with an incandescent light bulb in it). Once they're shrunk they can be put in a sealed plastic container so they maintain their size. I just have a lot of dowels handy by the bench and I test fit them and throw the big ones back in the bin to deal with later.

If I had a Domino I would probably only use dowels for flush case corners in situations where I couldn't or didn't want to plane down the corner and use the Dominos most of the time.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

welll i guess the great dowel vs domino debate will never end,i love the domino and would never get rid of mine,the alignment issue is nothing in my mind i just dont have a problem with it.i wont knock dowels though because i do occasionally use them when needed,they both have their place in my shop.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> welll i guess the great,i love the domino and would never get rid of mine,the alignment issue is nothing in my mind i just dont have a problem with it.i wont knock dowels though because i do occasionally use them when needed,they both have their place in my shop.
> 
> - pottz


You are 100% correct. *Dowel vs domino debate will never end.* Even from those who haven't experienced using both, domino and dowels. IMHO there is no one answer for everyone. Preference, budget, and projects can sway individuals to one or the other or to using both.


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## MichaelTT (Mar 1, 2018)

So, I read though all of the 119 replies to this thread, and still am not sure, why, except for some special cases, you would use dominos, with the $1k tool, instead of dowels….

Don't get me wrong, I like to have nice expensive tools as much as anybody else, but I would not spend the $$ for a festool domino.

Like some here mentioned, rarely are the dowels or dominos used for strength, rather more to assure good alignment of the workpieces, which can be achieved just as well with dowels…


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> So, I read though all of the 119 replies to this thread, and still am not sure, why, except for some special cases, you would use dominos, with the $1k tool, instead of dowels….
> 
> Don t get me wrong, I like to have nice expensive tools as much as anybody else, but I would not spend the $$ for a festool domino.
> 
> ...


Then I probably wouldnt buy one or dig up a thread thats been dead for 6 months.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So, I read though all of the 119 replies to this thread, and still am not sure, why, except for some special cases, you would use dominos, with the $1k tool, instead of dowels….
> 
> Don t get me wrong, I like to have nice expensive tools as much as anybody else, but I would not spend the $$ for a festool domino.
> 
> ...


i dont think after reading all 119 posts that you really understand what a domino does so i will suggest you just stick with your dowels.assuring good alignment is the least thing i use my domino for.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Have you seen this one






and this one


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Most people don't have a doweling machine with an angled table so you're stuck with 90 degree or 180 degree joints with doweling jigs except the Dowelmax which has a forty five angle fence. The Domino machines have a fence that angles like a biscuit jointer. If all you want to do is align parts, get a biscuit jointer. I promise it's faster than messing around with precisely arranged dowels.

Dowel are absolutely used for strength. They get little respect but used wisely they can substitute for loose tenon joinery, which is what the Domino does. Look at the price of the Mafell duo-doweler if you're curious about the Domino too. It's a little more pricey I think but it does line boring too with a special jig they sell.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

This thread started in 2019.

It's time to end the question and see the completed table.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

yeah i didn't see the point of questioning it again,you either like what tool can do and willing to spend the money or your not.get a 20 buck dowel jig and be happy.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Old thread, and an influx of easy cash (won a longshot bet, big PAYOFF) I now own a Domino. So I have tasted the using the cheaper tool to do a job, and I have to say I still think the green tools are hugely overpriced, but damned if that Domino doesn't get er dun. Any angle, attitude, or direction you can get that face plate to nest flat to the stock, you can do it. Some of the craxy stuff I have done just trying mine out I would have needed a calculator, and a slide rule to get done with dowels, and some of them wouldn't have closed.

Domino kicks major buttocks once you get past that smelly price tag. Pheeeeewwww


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> Old thread, and an influx of easy cash (won a longshot bet, big PAYOFF) I now own a Domino. So I have tasted the using the cheaper tool to do a job, and I have to say I still think the green tools are hugely overpriced, but damned if that Domino doesn t get er dun. Any angle, attitude, or direction you can get that face plate to nest flat to the stock, you can do it. Some of the craxy stuff I have done just trying mine out I would have needed a calculator, and a slide rule to get done with dowels, and some of them wouldn t have closed.
> 
> Domino kicks major buttocks once you get past that smelly price tag. Pheeeeewwww
> 
> - therealSteveN


hey it was dirty illegal gambling money,think of it as a clensing-lol.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

At this point I just want to know if lightning33 built the table and how.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

we may never know he hasn't posted in over two years.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Probably just pocket holed it.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I private messaged lightning33 asking him if he ever built the farm table. He responded with


"I did! I used poplar and then General Finishes gel stain and Arm-R-Seal. Turned out great for a first project. I can send pics if you want."*

I messaged back suggesting he post his photos here. Well see what happens. Stay tuned.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The cool thing about the domino that's not talked about very often is. It cuts mortises accurately for Integral tenon. 
I like to square the corner of the domino hole. A finished joint then can doweled it's a win for both.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Got a Private message from llightning33 this morning.

He says

*Okay. I'll post an update with pictures when I get home tomorrow and have a computer. Thanks.
*


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> So, I read though all of the 119 replies to this thread, and still am not sure, why, except for some special cases, you would use dominos, with the $1k tool, instead of dowels….
> 
> Don t get me wrong, I like to have nice expensive tools as much as anybody else, but I would not spend the $$ for a festool domino.
> 
> ...





> So, I read though all of the 119 replies to this thread, and still am not sure, why, except for some special cases, you would use dominos, with the $1k tool, instead of dowels….
> 
> Don t get me wrong, I like to have nice expensive tools as much as anybody else, but I would not spend the $$ for a festool domino.
> 
> ...


For you it will just have to be one of life's mysteries.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> The cool thing about the domino that's not talked about very often is. It cuts mortises accurately for Integral tenon.
> I like to square the corner of the domino hole. A finished joint then can doweled it's a win for both.
> 
> - Aj2


Interesting, i've been thinking about getting one for some time, now even more so. I am a hybrid woodworker. I use machines where it makes sense and "finish" by hand or where its fun for me. This sounds like a good use


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## lightning33 (Jan 3, 2019)

OP here. AlaskaGuy reached out to ask me if I ever made the table. I did! But as this is my first woodworking project, take it easy on me…ha! I can't believe this thread still lives.

So, after lurking here and digesting way too many YouTube videos, I tried to assess my skill with how to build the table. I had grand designs on using fancy joinery, breadboard ends, etc, but I had to be honest on the intended purpose and the fact that I'm not Johnny WoodWorker. The table was to be a "daily beater" table - one on which my family will eat 95% of its meals, my kids can do coloring/art projects, we can put stuff we use everyday, etc. We have a nice/formal dining room table, but we wanted one for everyday use. That being said, I didn't want to make it out of something super nice, nor expensive given my experience. So, I talked to my local hardwood guy and he recommended poplar. So, poplar it is.

He planed and jointed the wood for me. All I need to do was cut it to length and assemble, which was the original point of this post. I was trying to keep costs down, so I borrowed a buddy's biscuit joiner for the top. If I were doing it again, I would use a dowel jig and dowels. But the biscuit joiner also came in handy making the slots for the z-clips.

Once the top was done and drying, I worked on the apron. I laid out the apron and dry-fitted it to the legs (which I bought from Timber-something out of NC because they sold legs in poplar). Once that was done, I used the excess to make the corner braces. I used the biscuit joiner to make slots for the z-clips. For the legs, I took them to another buddy's garage and took some off at a 45* angle for the braces (the pics will show this).

It was at this point that I realized the top was not flat! The hardwood guy had laid out how he thought the top would go, and I took him at his word despite the volumes of YouTube videos that explained the alternating of the end grain (one up, next down, next up, and so on). So, the top had a bow to the whole thing. Instead of using the circular saw to cut at the seams and starting over, I took it to a cabinet shop and they ran it through their giant sander. That got me 90% of the way there. So I laid it down so it bowed down and weighted the center. I kept it like this until I was ready to finish. The cabinet shop guy said this would help a little bit with the remaining bow. It didn't…it helped a ton. Bow was now gone.

My wife wanted something dark and wanted it stained. I understand that poplar is typically not stained, but I was pleased with how it turned out. We used General Finishes gel stain (java) and Arm-R-Seal. That was super easy to use. I have used the standard big-box store MinWax stain before for the odd shelf and this was way better. Money well spent.

I could probably build it again in 25% of the time and end up with a 150% better table after having gone through it once now. I had fun making it. Oh, and it is sturdy, level and doesn't wobble. Win. Any questions, fire away.








!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

hey i think you sweated it too much,looks great and im glad you came back too show us the results.thanks ag for coaxing him back.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Not sure where you got that poplar isn't typically stained. I stain it dark all the time. A lot of in stock stair railing parts come in poplar for good prices and take stain really well. I think your table looks great!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Thanks lightning33, Table looks great.


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## MichaelTT (Mar 1, 2018)

To all who answered my question :

What the heck does it matter, that the thread and original question are 2 yrs old ?
Question is still valid, and relevant.

And, I put the question out there seeking advice, and got a bunch of snarky answers, which were uncalled for.
Way to go !


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

Looks great and good drainage too!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't make dowel joints that much, but when I do, I make a custom jig that makes for a perfect match-up every time. The jig consists of 3 pieces of scrap in the shape of an "H". There are 2 outer pieces made from plywood that measure 3×3x(any thickness) and 1 center piece that is made from scrap the same thickness as the 2 pieces you want to join together. The center piece is drilled for the dowel diameter in 2 places (1-1/2" C-T-C) and sandwiched between the 2 plywood pieces; all of which is glued together. To use, you slip the jig over one half of the joint, drill the holes; flip the jig over to the other half of the joint and drill 2 more holes. The result will be 2 perfectly aligned holes.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Another thing the domino can do is give you some lateral movement if desired. It can make one or both mortises wider than the domino. You can't do that with dowel.


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