# Are there any Traditional Woodworkers among us?



## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

I have always liked doing things the old fashioned way. I think i get it from my father, who is very meticulous and takes care and precision in everything he does. As I am just getting into woodworking, I am leaning towards setting up a more traditional shop. I was wondering how many of you do things the old ways (hand-cutting your dovetails, hand planing, draw knifing, chiseling, etc)?

For those of you that do things the old fashioned way, do you have any pointers/advice, links to websites, or can you reccomend particular brands of tools that seem to work better? If I am going to do it, I am going to do it right, so any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Brian


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Perhaps the most important "tool" for a traditional woodworker is a good cabinet maker's bench with the bench dogs and hold downs. It will be front and center in your shop and used on virtually every project.

That said, you are also going to become proficient in sharpening. A good set of water stones, a sharpening guide, and a selection of wet/dry sandpaper attached to flat glass plates will be in frequent use.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Acquire skills, not tools.


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks 8iowa. Right now space is limited so i only have a 2' x 5' bench that has a removable top section and the lower section will hold the router table (i'll post pics when the project is finished so you can see what i am talking about) So, the good bench will unfortunately have to wait until i can get some more room.

Ok dr, any reccomendations of where i could go to learn these skills? (web, books, etc)


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## Harold (Nov 13, 2007)

I agree with 8iowa, in fact i will go even farther, I believe it is the most important tool you will ever own/build. I believe ever other tool, chisel, plane or saw is a accessory for your bench. Traditional woodworking is literally built from the bench, the techniques in planing, cutting joinery…in preparing your stock..everything begins with the bench. If space is a premium then build a smaller bench, regardless I sincerely believe a bench should be one of the first projects you tackle. A economical set of bench chisels will work while you acquire the techniques, not only in the physical work but also the skill of sharpening( the bench is the No.1 tool and sharpening in the No.1 skill) And…!!!! if your not enjoying yourself your doing something wrong. Ask someone here at LJ's….or if finances and location will allow it take a course or class, or attend a demonstration. Start simple, but set you expectations high.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

GR8 There are a bunch of schools out there - I am a fan of Marc Adams - but that is in part he is closest to me. You will find there tends to be a pool of folks that teach certain skills and often have courses at many of the schools.
I do know that for working from scratch - Roy Underhill is teaching I believe at the end of July hand tools, green wood and basically turning logs into useful stuff.
In addition many others like Chis Schwartz, Chris Gochnour, graham Blackburn and others teach specifically for hand tool furninture making - - just depends what part of the country you are in and the dreaded budget.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hit submit before the ol brain finished thinking - 
but I would definitely look towards one of these classes.
Learning 'on the fly' to use a tablesaw and router is not so bad as long as one is careful. But a few days with someone who really knows their stuff on Hand tools is an outright necessity- learning sharpening, tuning of tools and joinery in a week from an expert you will be farther ahead than if you spent a year beating your head against a wall. It is possible to get there but a lot less fun.


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## Charlie_Wintercoats (Dec 11, 2008)

I am stuck on power tools. I tried using a chisel yesterday on a cabinet and did more damage than good. It is the first time i used a chisel and need practice obviously. I cant comprehend using those tools for the time consumption factor. I did watch that show the woodrights shop when I was little (that guy who makes evertyhing by hand)... he even made a threaded wooden rod for something. Doing that stuff would be fun… but I dont have the patience.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

All great ideas, I would just like to add, a hand tool is only useful when it is sharp. Unless you want to spend more time sharpening than woodworking, I would suggest looking into a Tormek.


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## EricS (Sep 17, 2008)

Here is a link to a blog written by a guy who uses only hand tools. He makes some beautiful stuff using only hand tools.

http://tomfidgen.blogspot.com/


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## Vladimir (Dec 18, 2008)

A good strong workbench is by far the most important tool for the trade/hobby. Following the bench are saws, chisels, and planes. The tools should be good quality to obtain good results; however, cheaper tools can be refurbished to make that happen. 8iowa has a strong and most valid point in terms of sharpening, so I won't add to that. You will be sharpening frequently. For the most part, the hand tools will save you loads of cash rather than blowing it all on top of the line power tools. The work you will do will provide you with invaluable experience on crafting too. One person which always did everything the traditional way is Jim Kingshott, read up on him and read some of his books. That dude breaks everything down into potatoe-head language and provided me the greatest amount of insight into the craft through his videos. The best thing of all is his video stuff is usually available in libraries for free viewing. I hope that helps.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm with Charlie on this one, it's hard enough trying to make a buck in woodworking, I can't imagine how much more extra time it would take useing only hand tools.


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

Wow, thanks for some great info. I will have the sharpening ability down very soon. My dad can put a razor edge on anything, so hopefully he can pass that ability on to me.

I will definitely check out Jim Kingshott, thanks for that.

Tchisel, I will be checking out your site later on tonight when i get done doing some last minute shopping. Thanks

Thanks again everyone, this really is a great forum. You guys have a wealth of knowledge/experience.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I can do a lot of stuff the old ways. If you want to be
a really good craftsman you need to get the hand-tool 
skills anyway.

If you are doing it for a hobby working in a traditional manner
is relaxing and fun - if you have patience.

For making money? When I do jobs for money you might gape
at how fast I move. Whatever tool or method is fastest, that's
what I use. Sometimes it's a handtool in that case too.


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## Catspaw (Dec 15, 2007)

Traditional = fun, modern = money.

Dovetails were made by a bunch of grunts because glues weren't very good….if those grunts had the glue we have now, they would have dropped dovetails in an instant.

With that said, having good hand skills will only make your machine skill projects better. You just have to decide what you want to do and why.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

Catspaw, I don't know that I would say that about dovetails, glue alone isn't going to hold a drawer side on vey well. The reason you don'r see many dovetailing in cabinet shops is they use a joint that is faster to cut, but not necessarily better. I still prefer a dovetail joint, but trying to get someone to pay you for the time to incorporate it into something they want is tough. It's all about speed for the producer, and price for the majority of consumers nowdays. I don't do much for anyone anymore, so speed isn't a big issue, but I do think that with machinery I get better results. Ofcourse there are some things you just can't do with machinery, but that seems to be geting to be less and less every year.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I guess I'll add my 2 cents on the subject. For 9 years, Carleen and I did all the farming on our ranch with horses. it didn't take long to understand that the soil didn't care how it was plowed as long as it was plowed properly. The wood doesn't care how it is cut or shaped all that matters is the end result. I suggest you proceed with learning to be proficient with all the hand tools. If you know how to do the work with out electricity you will know how to do it better with power. You will also recognize when to use hand tools and when to use power. You will have a much better understanding of how wood reacts to various situations. Don't become closed-minded. There is a place for a table saw and a place for a sharp rip saw. Once you understand wood and the use of hand tools you will be able to combine the power tools to better improve your output in quality and efficiency. Good luck on your journey. Remember to have fun along the way.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

As far as websites, I'd stay here. I have been trying to do everything with only hand tools, and the good folks here at LumberJocks have been very helpful with their information - whether they are primarily hand tools users or not.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

One item that I didn't see mentioned was tuning up your tools. Wood planes are a staple tool for anyone trying to everything by hand. Using a hand plane that hasn't been properly tune feels like pushing a rock. Once you work with a plane you have spent the time to set it up you will understand. 
There are a number of books available on the subject. Or you can search the subject here on LJ's site. The topic has been very well covered. 
I wish you luck in your adventure.


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

Unfortunately I cannot afford a Tormek right now. Work is slow so I have to watch my spending. I don't mind taking the extra time to sharpen. What can you guys reccomend less than $100, preferably less than $50 right now, that would do a good job sharpening? Remeber I don't mind it taking more time. Right now I don't have a choice in the matter, haha.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

gr8:

When I took a sharpening class at Highland Woodworking in Atlanta, our instructor, Jim Dillon, said that using wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface such as a glass plate, was the cheapest way to get into sharpening - but the most expensive in the long run due to the relatively high cost of each sheet of paper. Conversely, a selection of wetstones is more expensive initially, but much cheaper in the long run as they last practically forever. His opinion of the Tormek was that it was very useful for carving chisels (curved surfaces) but not really as necessary for plane irons and bench chisels.

The Tormek also gets us into the discussion of hollow ground edges, which is a little beyond the theme of this thread.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

This subject really brings up the age old discussion of whether woodworking is an art or a science. Well its both. And insisting on hanging out at either fringe seems a misunderstanding of this basic fact.


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## Harold (Nov 13, 2007)

I believe the pack of 5 - 12"x12" square mirrors cost $14 at lowes, a small can of spray contact cement and then hit a Napa or a Auto paint supply store for the Wet Dry sand paper. You will be well within your budget and keep in mind the technique you'll be developing is the goal of this investment. Another super way to economically hone the edges, is a hard felt wheel charged with a polishing rouge mounted on a drill. I have a old 1/2" electric drill clamped to the corner of my bench just to keep the edges perfect, the Traditional woodworker.com site has (or had) a inexpensive kit that contained a arbor, a wheel, charging compounds and a slick mount that clamps to a table holding your drill. I do use a jet/tormek to repair a bevel/chip, but as of yet I have not been able to get a perfect edge with this system, it does however work super for the turning tools and repairing chiped edges. The other points being made regarding Traditional vs. modern are valid and always result in a heated debate…but the value of the skills you will develop with hand tools and their applications from now on, are priceless. I have a incredible amount of respect for woodworkers who embrace the historically traditional methods of woodworking. I consider myself a 21st century traditional woodworker and I use all the tools I have available.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I would add - put a buffing wheel on one side or your grinder and charge it with polishing compound. I use this as my 'final grit' as well as to touch up the edge when I do cut dovetails between "real" sharpenings.

30 seconds on the wheel and you have an edge so sharp it hurts just to look at it.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

I'll ad just one additional comment to Harold's suggestion above. This past July I attended a week-end woodworking program with author and educator Nick Engler. Nick advised us to use 3M77 adhesive to attach the wet/dry paper to plate glass as it is removable. He cautioned us not to use 3M90 as it's bond is permanent.


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks for the info pat. I will check out some of those books/mags/dvds.

Thanks guys for the sandpaper idea. I will check that out, as well as some wetstones, when time allows.

I am trying to squeeze out every spare minute right now for my Greenland Paddle and am so near completion. This is my first real solo project, and I want it to be right. I would have done my finish sanding today and put on my first coat of finish if it hadn't started raining on me. The rain stopped me because I have to sand outside due to the fact that my dad is very succeptable to the dust, but at least I got my rough sanding out of the way. Hopefully I can get the other done tomorrow, weather permitting.

Thanks again guys.


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## Gofor (Jan 12, 2008)

If you are into making paddles, etc, check out info on draw-knives, spokeshaves, and shaving horse. With those hand tools, sanding will be at a minimum if needed at all, and that can probably be eliminated with a card scraper. The dogwood mallet in my avatar was made without power tools, altho I did use a sanding block.

Go


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

haha, Gofor, as a matter of fact, I have a drawknife on the way for christmas. I am trying to decide on a reasonable spokeshave, and I am going to build a shaving horse in the near future. I found a picture of a shaving horse that was adapted to a normal workbench so that I can stand instead of sit if I want.


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## Michael121 (Jun 30, 2008)

Hey Charlie they now have a power chisel.

http://www.chippingaway.com/WoodCarving/ArbortechWoodcarvingTools/PowerChisel.htm


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## gr8outdrsmn (Dec 11, 2008)

oooo now that's nice, is it too late to ask for it for christmas? haha


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

As for a piece of glass I stopped by a local glass store and got a miss cut. They're like woodworkers, they make mistakes too. I ended up with a piece that's 1/2" thick about 10"x30" with all 4 sides ground down. 6ist explain that your learning woodworking and


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## pinkiewerewolf (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm relatively new to woodworking as carpentry was were i spent more of my time before. I'd suggest that you check out some of the woodworking magazines at your local library. They have some great tips for the beginning woodworker and it seems like each year they have tips for a wood shop on a budget. The low cost serves two purposes, saving money on tools so we can actually buy the materials (wood) to use the tools on and second, if a person finds that woodworking isn't for them then they aren't out much and the tools can be used for maintenance and repair around the house. 
Enjoy the process and have fun!
BTW, Tchisel's site is a good place to pick up some tips. I watched him cut a Bombe Secretary with a circular saw, now that is skill. (and an example of what you can do with an inexpensive tool)


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## keithcruickshank (Jun 3, 2008)

Sometimes woodworkers, me included, get into the "I need the next greatest gadget" frame of mind. But the more I travel and the more great artisans I film for http://www.woodtreks.com, it seems that one thing comes through loud and clear. It all comes down to learning basic skills. I think a previous poster said it above - that the best tool is the one between our ears. So keep on learning!


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## rhchampagne (Nov 18, 2008)

Hi, 
If you are interested in serious period reproduction work, check out the Society of American Period Furniture Makers (www.sapfm.org). The website has a nice members gallery, as well as forum if you want to ask questions. There is also a bunch of links to other resources. I know a bunch of people have already said this, but get a solid bench. Then get a set of chisels, even if it is one of those home depot sets. Then get a few old bench planes off ebay. Pretty soon you'll be in business.


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## drknoxy (Nov 12, 2008)

Though I too am a bit of a novice, I think in that respect my advice may be more valuable as I have recently gone through what you have.

Buy tools as you need them.

It sounds goofy, but go antiquing. Correction, go antiquing with a grocery list. I found a no.4Stanley Bailey series handplane and bargained it down to 14$ I'll post some pictures when I have it up and running, but it is crazy how sandpaper and steel wool can revive a good tool. I also found a lot of planes at the antique store that I didn't need (thus the grocery list). I enjoy using a hand plane so much that it has become my go to tool for finishing.

A note on the glass though: I had a real thin piece and it broke, just something to keep in mind. And you don't need a honing jig to sharpen a blade. You rest the bevel on the surface and apply pressure. It is one of those "develop skills instead of buying tools" type moments for me.

Another fun way of getting tools while developing skills is making your own tool. If you make a mallet you get the experience and the mallet. You can follow directions or take a class for something like this


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## Ekim (Dec 10, 2008)

Brian,
Get a chisel and a sharpening set up and learn how to sharpen the chisel. Get a rip saw and a crosscut saw that are sharp. Start learning how to sharpen them. Build a pair of saw benches, you will need them for building a bench and you will use them for many things. Get a decent broom, when you screw up sweep the shop and think about it until you are ready to go at it again. I believe the broom is the most underrated tool in the shop. Get a decent block plane and sharpen it, get a decent bench plane and sharpen it. You only need 3 or 4 planes for stock prep, don't go into tool acquisition mode when what you need are skills. Find some one with the skills and learn from them, many times they will have tools that they will sell you, bring your broom and sweep their shop! You are almost there!
Mike


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## Kinzua (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey Brian: Welcome! I became mesmerized with ww about 2 weeks prior to xmas. Then promptly caught a very stealthy flu-which afforded a great deal of down time to research. Still have flu and as result-have now gratefully found LJ and Tchisel. Watched Tommy's site video's (www.tchisel.com) all day today -(fevers with bonus podcasts on Blanket Chest from tchisel=="Epic Day" afterall). Watched the BC#3 pods and for me-no experience whatsoever-never been to a lumber yard (what's that?) it was a great investment of my time. Learned a lot of fundamentals-methods and applications and quick solutions as part of flow of work in fixing mistakes. Am certain Tommy's voice will stay with me as I meander further into ww-world…"Don't worry about..it's ok..we'll clean that up.. it's all good…keep your head down." I couldn't have found a better place to be today just one week before starting school at Cerritos College for WW-ing. I miss the East Coast terribly so that was just another 'epic' bonus. ("Foh-getta bout it…we can fix that over here..") 

As for hand tools.. the guys at www.woodnet.net are exceptional. There's a forum dedicated to hand tools. They are encouraging, informative, creative, educational, humorous, and clearly have great passion for what they do and how they do it. They were the first forum and first interaction I had with anyone in WW-ing: 12/25/08 (Merry xmas to me. lol)

As close people have found out that I have somehow "slipped down the rabbit hole" into WW… they've been bringing over supplies. I have a few crates here that contain items I am still slowly identifying.(Tommy was showing on tchisel how to do a panel carving with a Bosch laminate trimmer. I had one sitting on the table and had no idea what it was til I recognized his on the podcast and saw what he could do with it. WOW.) I knew no terms, no tools, no language-hard to follow suggestions sometimes if you don't understand and have no visual concept of the language.  ("Get that nice and swarmy." Huh?)

Some of those gifts are hand tools. I described to them to woodnet.net (WN) hand tool participants and they walked me through identifying them, rehabilitating them, cleaning them, sharpening them, and how to utilize them and … how to think openly with them-to begin to see what they could do and how to do it. "Down the slippery slope….." I have amassed a bit of research with podcast's and photo's… happy to share when I find them on other laptop. However, the guys at hand-tools woodnet.net were by far the most helpful thus far. Very encouraging and knowledgeable about how to do a piece of work with both the power tools I am starting to pick up and the hand tools- allowing a novice to get a feel for each method and various applications. Also.. Walt Q on WN comes highly recommended for suggesting hand tools to new comer's. I found the recommendation to be accurate.

Really excited to have found LJ yesterday-- it's expanded everything and the links and podcast's/photo's shared are amazing here. Am very visual and want to have an idea of a process in order to make some informed vs blind decisions. This is a gold mind for it. Really looking forward to being here to ask questions. Thus far…way to busy reading and wowing at projects. 

I also read an article the other day Article: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009january/dilo.html. Amazing-Amazing Dino Fernandino. Based on the way you formatted question am guessing you'll enjoy the perspective. It's from www.highlandwoodworking.com an excellent site for ht's.

btw: I tried several methods for sharpening and flattening the blades I have, including chisels. I was also given a lot of carving tools but not sure what they are yet.  I have a newly acquired bench grinder-multi-speed/dry or wet. I was given 3 Arkansas oilstones: course, med, and black fine. I needed to clean the stones, flatten them as well as the tools. I also went to HD and bought a granite tile piece, slight chip on top corner for $1. I bought Duru Adhesive spray at Walmart-$1.88. I picked up Norton 3x grits 120-220-400. I lightly adhered the sand paper split down the middle-so 1/2 onto the tile with 120 on one side and 220 on the other. This was actually the fastest, easiest, and most productive method to sharpen and flatten the blades. The stones were more narrow and left less room for error. The grinder quickly sharpens and therefore can quickly damage. I'll wait for that til my skills improve.

I like straight forward practical application. Definitely preferring the tile/sp method right now. It allowed room to play with the blades/chisels to get a good feel for what I was doing and enough margin to notice when I was starting to error- like taking the bevel off-square. (think that is the term) I mentioned adhesive b/c most info online articles warned of it slipping or adhering too much. Duru on the back of s/p was perfect. Held fast and straight, came right off with almost no residue. I want to understand the process and methods. Am in no hurry to grind a tool on the b/grinder… make sense? In cleaning that tool, sharpening the tool, I began to learn the tool- how it sharpens taught me how it will cut; cleaning it showed me how it did cut and how it was damaged or what to look for when I am working when it starts to dull.

finewoodworking.com has a great deal of information and video.

thewoodwhisperer.com is a fantastic resource. Marc and Natalie did an article for beginner's that is amazing. I've spent hours on their site (flu bonus) and cannot find enough excellent things to say about them. Enjoy the David Marks video while you're there. I watched it twice. http://thewoodwhisperer.com/new-to-woodworking/

Probably enough for a decent start. I saw that you already have the bench. HTH to use it much more often.


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## goldenhands (Sep 16, 2008)

Hi Brian,

Well many things has been said and many good advices too.
But here is my tip for you.
Good working bench yes, good tools yes and no, alot of your time yes (more then you think), patience yes, self motivation yes, and more important of all - ability to learn and develop.

Let me explain, you are 24 starting as a woodworker - very good. The question is what you want to achieve?
To become an ordinary joiner - no problems, to become a good cabinetmaker - possible think about your 45 - 50s, to become a professional cabinetmaker - could be difficult, unless you have an extraordinary ability to learn - fast and almost with out any mistakes. And of course think about your 80s man. I am not trying to disscarage you it is all about your time man, that you are spending to experience the woodworking, and the speed + quality that you can apply or provide. 
According to the tools if you can buy good tools right a way it is nice but better if you can learn from bad tools and develop your skills from it to the good ones - that would be the perfect way man, trust me on this. Then you can use your good tools on the best way possible and get the most from it, not necessary to mention that you will know in your soul the difference between the good and not good.

So that is me.


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## talltree (Mar 3, 2015)

I am semi-retired, and 66 years old. I've had a great time the past 10 years making built-ins, furniture, and special projects for my customers. Before that I was a residential remodeler.

To me craftsmanship means using the best in materials, the best methods you can use, and always taking the customers' ideas as the heart of your work. Always use a project to expand your skills. I use both power and hand tools. Both are useful. I don't think I could earn a living using only hand tools. I think, also, it is important to have the company of other craftsmen. It was through my painter that I was introduced to the various ways that finishes react with wood products and sheet goods.

Last of all I would add that craftsmanship is a way of life. It's not something you do once in a while. You have to make it your goal. You have to seek out the people that value it. Always have an eye out for the good work that others are doing.

Oh yes, I finally made myself a bona fide woodworker's bench about 5 years ago. My own design, pretty much, very heavy and with expensive and useful vises. What a difference it has made in the enjoyment of my craft.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Traditional = fun, modern = money.
> 
> Dovetails were made by a bunch of grunts because glues weren t very good….if those grunts had the glue we have now, they would have dropped dovetails in an instant.


I wouldn't tell that to the Japanese.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

Except for the rare occasion when I drag an extension cord from the house to the concrete shed that is my shop to use an electric hand drill once in a while (can't find bits for a brace and probably couldn't afford them anyway), I'm only using hand tools.

But I wouldn't call myself a traditional woodworker at all. If you want to take a hard honest look at woodworking tradition, what you'll find is that except for pioneers and other guys out in BFE making rustic stuff, traditional woodworking was done by crews, and specialists at stations at that. You can take a gander at an 18th Century illustration, or a Ming Dynasty drawing, or ancient Egyptian frescoes and sculptures, or a contemporary photo from Nigeria or Laos, and you'll see essentially the same guys doing the same operations.

If you are a woodworker working alone, yet traditionally, today in the 21st Century, your sons, uncles, apprentices, indentured servants or slaves, are machines powered by electricity.

Sawed through seven yards of 2 1/2" thick walnut yesterday morning with a 15 dollar "Borg" disposable saw 
(I live in a cash-poor "formerly socialist republic"). Pretty "third world", very "old school" as far as technique. But "traditional", no. If my son starts chiming in on a regular basis, then maybe yeah.

Otherwise, no, not traditional in a deep sense. The lone hand-worker, the solitary Luddite by choice or necessity, has some roots in the 19th Century frontiers of America, Brazil, Australia, but mostly his genes are springing straight from the 1960's, and his condition pinned on 21st Century politics.

Doing everything by hand, alone, is a powerful political and personal statement. Just don't kid yourself that it's "tradition" in any broad or usual sense. Even if you find yourself some real-life Paul Bunyan- or John Henry- ancestor to stake your flag on, that guy was a radical in the great scheme of things.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Woodworking using traditional methods is fine for developing skill. Machine tools have their place and should not be dismissed. It's called evolution. We did traditional woodworking because there were no machines around at the time. A certain amount of "traditional" tool wielding will always be necessary.


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