# quality of chair joints?



## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

Hello there,

I'm not a woodworker and am not going to pretend to be any kind of expert, but I need some advice and I'm hoping someone here can grant me some. If this isn't the right category to post in, I'll be happy to move.

My husband and I recently took delivery of a new kitchen table, Amish made, made per our dimensions. This is our first really nice quality piece of furniture we've ever bought/ordered and we paid a good chunk of money for it. But I'm having a lot of heartburn over the fact that there are some rather noticeable gaps in the chairs where the seat meets the frame. Also, the paint finish is kind of splattered and smudged around the joint. I'm thinking this is poor workmanship, and for a high priced, Amish made table I should expect tight joints and no paint smudges or splatters. Or am I just being unreasonable?

FYI, the chair seat is natural cherry, and the painted chair body is maple.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

From the information given, it wouldn't fly leaving my shop.

Welcome to Lumberjocks


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

That is a big gap… Something wrong there.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

It could be a seasonal wood movement thing but it does
look like a defect.

How is the leg attached? Is there a screw?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

There should be a gap for seasonal wood movement but not that large. It looks like the corner cut might be made by dado blade because there appears to be tear out on the front of the area in front of the back support.Many pieces of furniture Amish are made on some high end machinery .Many folks think because Amish made their furniture it is al hand made with out power tools,but that's not the case with many of the Amish furniture peices sold on line. Most groups of Amish allow the use of power tools just not the ownership of such tools,so the rent the equipment or just rent the whole shop As for the seat ,I would request a replacement,seats are usually just screwed on and should be easy to replace yourself.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The joint is crap.
The round corner on the leg vs. the square corner on the seat is crap.
The finish looks like crap.

I'd call them and tell them ever so eloquently….it's crap.

Amish furniture….it really doesn't mean anything anymore. Ive seen some well crafted Amish made furniture and some total garbage. Just another factory in some instances.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for a chair?


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the responses! Here are some answers to the questions posed:

We ordered from a local, family-owned, high-end custom furniture store, which has been in business in our area for several decades. They had three lines of custom order dining table options, and this was one. They said it was a new offering, but they were impressed with the quality and price point they had seen thus far, especially compared to their other two lines (which were Bermex and another whose name I don't remember).

The chairs we ordered were on display in their showroom, so we were able to sit in them. They were/are by far the most comfortable wooden chairs we have sat in, and we shopped around a LOT before we decided on this purchase. The angle of the seat and the lumbar support are really nice. I never would have believed wooden chairs could feel this good, but they really do. There were other stores in our area that carried "Amish" furniture, orderable in a gazillion different styles, but we did not want to order chairs that we couldn't try sitting in first, and no one else had anything like it.

The showroom chairs were rustic cherry wood, stained. I haven't had a chance to go back to the store and see if they had the same kind of defect. Given that they were all stained in one color, I would imagine any flaws like this would be less noticeable. We even went to another one of their stores to look at another table and chairs by this company (different table style, wood, stain color), but I don't recall this kind of defect. It, too, was a nice looking set. Neither store had anything in the painted finish, other than the sample boards.

We paid about $600 per chair. The seat is natural cherry, sealed but not stained. The frame is maple painted black with "rub through distressing". These are "counter height" chairs (so is the table).

There is a screw-in bracket connecting the seat to the frame, so I've included some pictures of that. I also just realized that there is potentially a flaw in the front legs, as well. The part of the leg that gets trimmed away to fit into the seat (sorry I don't know the technical term for this) is longer than necessary, so it also looks sloppy. However, it's not as noticeable since it's under the seat. I've included a picture of this, and of the chair in its entirety, as well.

I called the store and they're going to come take a look. Until we've had a chance to try and work through it with them, I don't want to mention any names, because as you know, everything on the internet is pretty much here forever, and I don't want to unfairly ruin anyone's reputation. I do feel better knowing that I'm justified in my concerns and not being overly critical!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

The more you show the sloppier they look. Are you sure there are not folks in Chinna that are Amish,because these chairs look like the kind of workmanship that comes out of foreign countries that are low quality . For $600 each that's more in the custom furniture makers price range . If they will take them back look for a local artisan in your area who will make you some good quality chairs that will last for years to come.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

Other than the issues I've pointed out with the joints, are there other things that look "sloppy" that I haven't picked up on? I just want to have my ducks in a row when I talk to the store rep.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I really think what has been pointed out by you and my earlier post is enough,if you paid $79 at Walmart that would be one thing but you paid for what should be quality.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

I agree with Monte; those chairs would not have left my shop. Jim's suggestion to find a local custom woodworker is the best advice. If you let us know your general location, there may be a LJ that is in your area and might be willing to assist.


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## woodchuckerNJ (Dec 4, 2013)

I have chairs, there are no brackets, no screws. just tight joints.
Those chairs don't look like $600 chairs with those defects.

I would bring one of the chairs to the dealer and explain that this is not the quality you expected, nor is it acceptable.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

OK, hopefully this will be my last question. This one is regarding the table. There are some color variances in the wood where it is pieced together. I did a little online reading regarding cherry woodworking, and supposedly this is not uncommon-that cherry can be hard to match up, especially when it's not stained to even out the differences. So here are some more pictures of what I'm talking about. Is this OK or not? A couple of table legs show noticable differences. The table top has a section that is slightly different than its adjoining sections, but not as markedly noticeable. It is intentionally distressed, so that is the reason for the waviness and roughness.

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I just can't say to the dealer "this is poor quality!" without being able to articulate the specifics of WHY. As I said earlier, I'm not a woodworker, so I don't know all the technical details of what defines "good" quality. Just a vague notion that "things should fit together nearly perfectly" and "there shouldn't be visible screws or glue" and "finish should be free from defects". So being able to sort out the details here is immensely helpful to me. Thank you!!!

I'm in southeast Wisconsin, if there is anyone in the area I could consult.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Once again this is not quality work. Most professional woodworkers either select wood so there are not extream differences in the woods color or know how to finish it so that you can not see the difference.The photos you show it appears there are defects in the wood also ,the photo of the leg appears to be a patch and the top looks like it has plane marks on it. I'm sorry I don't know anyone in your area to help.You might investigate and see if there's woodworking guild in your area,they should have a list of professional woodworkers in your area .


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## MBD (Mar 28, 2013)

The table top defects remind me of voids in the core of plywoods. I would like to see the edge of the table top as well. A lot of table tops get sold as solid wood, but are nothing more than plywood with a plain sawn or flat cut veneer and hardwood edging. I'm not saying that, that is what you have, but it occurs a lot in furniture making.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I really hope you didn't pay a lot for these. Regardless, I would try to get a refund. I agree, if this is Walmart furniture, then shame on you. If this is supposed to be custom (professional) work, then you should refuse it. At a glance, I would guess that the table is veneer and not solid wood (by our standards).


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Good point MBD it does look like the table top could be plywood.Looking at the photo again seeing where the rounded edge of the table is in about 6-8" is solid wood and then from the defects on could be plywood.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

This is a very poor workmanship and I am thinking Walmart or big lot product. No way someone made these by hand.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

I'll get a picture of the table edge soon. In the meantime, I was able to find one site online with pictures of tables from this company (a family-owned furniture store, not an online retailer). These are similar to what we saw in the store. Was it crummy quality from the get-go and we just didn't see it? Or is there a mismatch in the store quality vs delivered quality?

I'm just getting sicker and sicker thinking about what we spent vs what we got. I really hope the store will take it back.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

You won't find metal brackets under those chairs. It was the quality from the get go. What you have is store bought items at best.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I would insist they take them back,if not,you can offer them free advertizing on your local Craigs list with the photos you have posted here with a link to this thread an or a call to your local TV station an see if they want a story about a rip off.
From what I can see in the new photos from a shot that far away,the furniture looks very good .


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

How long ago did you take delivery, and what is the store's return policy? If you saw these items int he showroom, is there a chance they have a set there you could look at for comparison? Like others have said : crap. For $600, you shouldn't have those ugly metal brackets under the seat. The one picture makes the bottom of the seat look flat, and then the subsequent pictures show the brackets haphazardly screwed on at weird angles. As Jim pointed out, that leg has some sort of patch in it. Is that a pad that you put on the bottom of the leg, or is that how it came? If that's how it came : 1.) I'm surprised to see such a thick pad like that that seems so out of place on a "high end" solid wood table 2 it looks like they screwed up installing it or something, and had to patch the wood. That piece you showed on the underside of the chair is a round tenon and it should seat full so that you don't see any of the tenon. I would not call that table top "distressed", it really just looks like one big section was messed up.

I agree with what's been said, including finding a local custom woodworker to make you some chairs o lasting quality.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Your last photos were not made by the same people. Even from a distance they look like they came from a craftsman.The first oones are a factory product.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Are they actually Amish made? Or are they simply Amish style. What i have seen of actual Amish MADE furniture showed pride in the craftsmanship. Those first ones showed none.


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## OldWrangler (Jan 13, 2014)

As you can see, we are all in agreement that those chairs and the table are shoddy work at best and certainly not worth the price you paid. As has been said, they are crap.

You can believe that this table and chairs need to be returned for a full refund. If they refuse, that's why we have Small Claims Courts. Most of these court have a limit of $5,000 per claim so I suspect what you paid should be covered. You need no lawyer, a filing fee of around $50 (varies from state to state). If they still refuse to return your money, you local Constable will go and collect. This is a last resort but it is worth remembering.

Two years ago I have to file a claim against Delta Airlines and won the suit. They flat refused to pay a judgement of $1,150. so the Constable went out to the airport and impounded a fork lift. We had a check the same day.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

"so the Constable went out to the airport and impounded a fork lift."

That's awesome.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The more I look…the more you've been took.

For 600.00 the workmanship on the chairs isn't even approaching acceptable. The metal bracket under the seat is honestly something you would find screwed to a chair at wall mart(not to mention the original issues).

And I also noticed this in the other pictures.









The seat projects past the leg and looks as if its got a plain flat cut with no finish on it? More crap.

As for the legs, they should have zero sap wood in them, particularly with a natural finish. If a customer requests the sap wood, great, some people like the color variation…but if not, NO sap wood.

The table top doesn't have the greatest color match, but I don't see any sapwood…because they KNOW they couldn't get away with that.
It isn't plywood from what I can see. Plywood typically only comes in three different cuts called book matched, slip matched and rotary cut(or whole piece face)
It isn't any of those, not to mention the distressing which would be next to impossible with plywood.

I feel badly for you…and for all the others they've stolen money from. At least you followed your 'heartburn' and started to ask questions. Good for you.

All said and done, I would in all honesty, put it all in the back of my pickup, drive it back and ask them where they'd like it.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

*CORRECTION - $450/chair, not $600. *I was going by memory earlier, and I just checked the receipt and verified. So perhaps the transgression isn't quite as egregious, but it's still a far cry from Walmart pricing.

It was delivered on Feb 22. They're coming to look at it on Saturday. I'm going to try and remain optimistic that they will be honest and take it back. But if they don't, I'm grateful for all the ideas here for what else I can do to try and get my money back, which for the record is $4400-$450/chair, $1700/extension table w/2 leaves. I sure hope it doesn't have to come to that, because I don't know WHERE the heck I'm going to find a "constable" around here! 

So now, even if the store takes it back, we're all the way back to square one, 4 months ago, shopping around for a new table. We both work full time and have 3 young kids. Let me tell you, furniture shopping with young kids is NOT EASY and please don't suggest we just get a sitter because sometimes when you've just got an hour free to visit one store in between swimming/soccer/play date/whatever, you just can't arrange for a sitter. Our life situation isn't any of your problem, but I bring it up only to make the case for why I can understand why so many people prefer to do the quick, cheap and easy method of buying foreign imports off the shelf: #1, it's cheap; #2, you pretty much know what to expect (even if it isn't great), and #3, you're not waiting 12 weeks to get it.

I want to support local independent business. I want to buy quality made American products and am willing to pay for it (or at least, I was). You all sound like fine craftspeople who take a tremendous amount of pride in your work, but I am so frustrated by this and completely understand why so many people choose to buy the cheap foreign made furniture

New information: I'm pretty sure the seat bracket is plastic, not metal. Don't bother, I'll say it for you: MORE CRAP!

AND, there are screws underneath each rung on the base. My husband thinks that we saw that on other sets, though, and that some salesperson during our shopping said it was needed for more stability in counter height chairs. True/False?

On one of the rungs, the wood is even splitting where the screw goes in. I think we need a new word for crap!










Someone asked for pictures of the table edge, so what the heck-here's some more fuel for the fire! But I will say (despite NOT being a woodworker), I'm pretty sure those end grains indicate these are solid planks and not plywood. But at this point, what difference does it make?

*Rounded Edge / Short Edge:
*









*Straight Edge / Long Edge:
*


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

The table top is solid lumber. The last picture (end grain shot) shows a sheen variation on the second board from the left. sub par finish.
Difficult to tell from the end grain photo, but it looks as though the orientation of the growth rings, which should alternate(for stability, cupping), took a back seat during the glue up of the tabletop due to the sapwood all being on the bottom of the tabletop.
Can this lead to problems? Maybe, maybe not. A lot of variables on that one. Bottom line though, if that's the case…poor joinery technique.

Back to the chairs.
$150.00 less doesn't justify crap.
The broken section below the screw is garbage. period.
The screw isn't necessary at all if the chair is build properly, tall, or short. The salesman may honestly not know any better, but i'd bet he does and is just trying to justify….crap.

I try not to talk to the salesman the odd time I do go to a furniture store(any furniture store)....I'd get thrown out.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

OK, definitely solid wood. Poorly planed. My guess for turning all the grain the same in glue up is to hide the sapwood on the boards. That's a cheapskate thing to do as well. The sapwood that is showing is out of place and shouldn't have been used. You either feature it or don't use it. As for the screw in the chair, a good craftsman repairs/conceals them or replaces them.

If this had been posted here as someone's first project, we would accept it. For this to be considered as higher end furniture is almost criminal. It gives us all a bad name.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

Man, I would be outraged. You can always buy a store bought set for the price of one chair and take your time looking for a quality set later.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

BSLLAS,
You have every right to be outraged. You paid a premium and what you got does not come anywhere close to meeting those standards.

I hope you're not getting frustrated with the responses here, we're all craftsmen of some degree or another, and we take a lot of pride in woodworking. It's sad to see something like this, when a premium is paid for such a shoddy product, when their are many talented woodworkers out there trying to make an honest dollar. We're all behind you here, this is unacceptable.

Many of us have kids and can relate to you in some way. I only have one, a 20 month old, with another due in a couple months, and shopping for anything with a kid can be a struggle. We've been looking for a dresser, since I don't have time to build one, and we've been at the point once or twice where I sat in the car with a screaming kid while my wife goes in and finds out if there's even anything worth me coming in to look at. You're not alone there. Life makes it hard to deal with this kind of stuff, but you're doing better than most people would by seeking informed opinions and experienced information. You're not going into this fight unarmed, good for you.

I'm sure you've done your furniture store research. There's got to be something in your area that offers fine furniture, your price point definitely demands it. I was thinking about this last night and it made me think of what I consider to be the only decent furniture store in our city. Half of it is an old country-style diner. Walk through the divider and you're in a small (maybe 1000 sq ft) furniture store. Sounds cheesy right? I've looked at their furniture several times and would be happy to own any of it. It is top notch quality products, construction, and finish. And not priced outrageously. Maybe you have a similar family-owned small retailer in your area.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

BinghamtonEd,

Thanks for that! No, I'm not frustrated with the comments here. Just the fact that it takes so much effort to find quality. And even when I think we've put in the effort and found it, to realize that it's not and we have to start all over again. Or just give up. I love decorating and home improvement, but this is just one more setback we've had over the last year and a half of purchases and projects, and I think I've just run out of patience.

I have always been the type to buy something old and inexpensive at a yard sale/Craigslist and paint/sand/stain/tinker with it to have it fit my decor. My husband has never liked that, doesn't like "old stuff" and since 3 kids now leaves me no time to tinker, I finally agreed to make the leap to buying a well-made furniture set that will last a loooooong time and that his 6' 5" body is actually comfortable sitting in.

I will keep you posted on the progress with the store. I really, really hope they make this right and take it back. At this point I just want the thing out of my sight, even if it means we eat at a folding table for awhile.

Thanks everyone for the thoughful feedback and support!


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi again,

I just wanted to post an update, since you were all so kind as to offer advice. For now, we've decided to work with the store, i.e., they to go back to the furniture maker and remake/repair the faults. Admittedly, my emotions have been all over the map regarding this little saga, and the idea of taking a hard stance right off the bat is just not something I think we're prepared to do. The store has agreed to redo the table, on the grounds that the "hand planed" table top isn't what we were expecting, and they sold it to us based on a description but had not seen it themselves, either. This was surprising, since the table is the least of my concerns. They maintained that the table legs are "natural variations", including the chunks that looked like wood patches. I looked really closely at them, and they actually are right. It's not a sharp line as if it were a patch - it's a variation in the wood (heart/sap), and it must have come out looking that way when the block of wood was cut to make the leg. They won't promise all heart wood - heart and sap wood variations are to be expected in the product. (I guess this is one of those things I just couldn't have understood until I saw the differences for myself.) But my next thing I'm going to ask for is if we can pick the 4 best legs out between the existing and the new table, and keep the ones we think look best.

As for the chairs, well… they said the floor model chairs have similar gaps in the corner where the seat meets the body/frame. It's not as noticeable since they are completely stained in a fairly dark color. (I haven't gone back to the store to look.) The brackets ARE metal (a simple magnet test revealed that). They did agree to fix/redo the 2 chairs that visible cracking where the screws went into the chair rungs. We had some disagreement on the paint job, and they are doing some more discussion/research before coming back to me on that one, though.

They also said we can keep our current table until we get it all settled and get whatever replacements we're supposed to receive. Which is a relief, because I don't want to live with a folding table for a few months.

Another little sidebar…

Back last fall when we were initially shopping, there was another store we had visited. This is mom and pop store that only sells Amish furniture from a hand-picked selection of builders in Ohio. They place orders 5x per year and go to Ohio and pick everything up themselves, and refuse anything that doesn't meet standard and/or has them redone. I had considered going back to them since they had such attention to the details, but in the end, my husband really liked the chairs at the other store best, and since they were also coming from an Amish builder in Ohio, we figured it was going to be pretty much the same. Needless to say, lesson learned!

Anyway, I took one of our chairs to that store for some feedback. They agreed the corner gaps were bad, and the paint should have been applied before the seat was attached (instead of taped off and painted like ours was). However, they did say that it's normal for the tenons to NOT seat flush (and some of the pieces in their store exhibited this.) They also said it's normal for there to be screws on the undersides of the chair rungs, because "over time, the glue fails so it provides additional stability". I found they have our same chairs in one of their "order catalogs", and upon close inspection, those pictures also show a corner bracket. It was impossible to tell if there were gaps in the corners, though. I asked the store if they had ever sold our particular chair, and they said no (so they have no firsthand experience with what a really good version of this chair should look like). The thing I realize after looking at so many different pictures of chairs from "Amish" builders, is that ours is about the only style that is framed this way, in that the back legs and back are a single piece, and the front legs are tenons into the seat base. Most of the styles are either 1) a frame with a seat sitting on the frame, or 2) Windsor-style, with the legs all tenons into the base, and the back attached to the top. Not that any of this excuses bad attention to detail, but it just makes some of the points harder to clarify.

On this group's suggestion, I did some googling for local woodworkers guilds and found websites for different local woodworkers to get some ideas on what they could build, and pricing. Based on what I saw for custom furniture building, I don't think we'd get custom dining chairs for the price we paid. Besides, I'm just not ready to have to go through another whole process. But it's certainly something I will keep in mind for future furniture purchases.

I know that we're making some concessions, but so far I think the store is doing their part to work with us. If we can't come to an agreement about the corner gaps in the chairs and the paint finish, I guess we'll have to see what we do next.

To be continued…


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Forgive me for saying but to me their doing a sales job on you. Even though it's sap wood and not a patch the stain/paint should match and even though the rest of the chairs they have are low quality you shouldn't have to accept the products you have just because they consider it the norm(assuming they really do).


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

Unfortunately, I agree with Jim. They're trying to convince that they're providing quality, when they're not. If they were truly a quality product, they wouldn't be in a position to have to defend these kinds of flaws.


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## bsllas (Mar 18, 2014)

I know it's a sales job. I know they're trying to justify it. I'm just going through the diplomatic motions, and giving them a chance to take care of their customer before I have to be a jerk about it.


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