# So Sue me!



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I found this: http://books.google.com/books?id=i_sDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA72&dq=jan%201991%20american%20woodworker&pg=PA80#v=onepage&q=jan%201991%20american%20woodworker&f=false
browsing old American Woodworkers on Goggle books. I doubt if the contact info is good, but it is something to think about.

EDIT: SCAN DOWN TO BOTTOM LEFT OF PAGE 80


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

When, oh when will people EVER take responsibility for their own actions?! Once my editor told me that someone made a candle holder out of one of the patterns that was run in our magazine. The person started a fire and burned his house down. He then tried to sue the magazine. He didn't win but it sure made a statement. Now they are afraid to publish any projects involving candles at all.

So does that mean that if I buy a cabinet from someone and slam my finger in it and break it I can sue the cabinet manufacturer? A couple weeks ago, my partner caught his finger in the car door. Maybe we should have called a lawyer?

I was reading the other thread in the forum on accidents. I think it is time that people become accountable for themselves and stop trying to make a buck on their own stupidity.

And everyone wonders why North America is in such a mess? Hummm . . . let me think . . . ???

Just my opinion, Sheila


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

Wasn't it Shakespear who had the answer ?
Something to do with the legal proffesion ..
Just kidding
;-)


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

you can't fool a fool

they just can't handle the truth (jack nicholson)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sheila, There is a good chance it was the home owner's insurance company looking to recover anything they could by casting wide net. I had a property owner's insurance company try that on me when a tenant or someone put a penny behind a fuse. Fortunately, the fire investigator found it and documented it. My insurance company told them to go fly a kite, but they still held it against me when renewal time came.


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

That's just it TS - It's the people who want a quick buck and commit fraud that ruin it for the people who have legitimate claims. All it takes is one victory and it ruins it for the rest of the honest people. 

Sheila


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's pretty simple: lawyers mostly run the government, make the laws, and generate the bureaucratic red tape. You would think they probably want to make sure that they have plenty of income coming in. Seems like I once saw where the US has more lawyers *per capita* than any other country. That's a lot of hungry mouths to feed.


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

Again I say, basically, as a general rule, people suck. That being said I don't think I would ever make toys for kids.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I would like to find one of those guys that files frivolous malpractice. A friend of mine who is an attorney told me if anyone ever had a legitimate suit, I did for the clown that overdosed me on Topamax. I was told by malpractice attorney's that justice starts at $400k and goes up from there by the time you get the expert witnesses. In the mean time, I can only wonder how many people's lives that clown has destroyed? The web is full of horror stories about Topamax victims. Another one is Seroquel that ws found to be causing diabetes. It is used for migraine prevention too, but fortunately I got off it in time. No diabetes, just not normal any more. I probably shouldn't be telling all this, but if nobody does, there will just be more victims who learn the hard way because they trusted their drs.

That got a little off woodworking, in that article in the old Am WW, I was a bit surprised to see you can be held liable for gifts. Guess we had better be careful who we give to and make sure what we make does not have structural integrity issue; ie, don't make chairs!!


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

People suck. Now there's a pearl of wisdom I think we can all agree, if we lead our lives by (and as a general rule), will make the world a better place. Excellent point.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

rivergirl, you are a mean woman!! No toys!!!??? ) )


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

LOL, Kelly! It IS a shame that so many people are such opportunists. I can't help but think that the lady that sued McDonald's really helped fuel this type of thinking. Then shortly after, the ones who found the finger in the Wendy's chili. Just goes to show how desperate and sick people are.

We were talking the other day about "codes" for building. Everything here in Canada is coded. EVERYTHING. It is as if you can't put up new window curtains without taking out a permit (an exaggeration - but not by much) We were saying that we wondered how the Acadians who settled this area 400 years ago survived. They built four walls and a fireplace for cooking and heat. It's no wonder they didn't all burn themselves to the ground and die off.

I am all for safety, but come on! Where the heck does 'common sense' come into play? Why should we have the burden for everyone's stupidity? (Oh - I forgot - no one needs to be responsible for their own actions!) We grew up in a world where everyone is pointing the finger at everyone else for their problems so much it has become a way of life. The real victims get lost in the shuffle.

Sorry to rant, but it really makes me sick!

(Hey, Rivergirl! - You had better put a 'disclaimer' on your rustic tool box! Someone may be carrying it full of tools and a hammer may fall out and hit them on the foot! You could be liable!!!!)

Sheila


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A link to the real story of the MacDonalds coffee incident was posted on another thread a day or two ago. It is too bad we have to have attys take corps to court to make them behave.

Anyways, I posted this so people would be aware of the hobby risk and that there is insurance available to to cover you. I googled the phone numbers and they are no longer good. Stefang sent me to American Turners Association. While I was on their site, I noticed they have insurance for members at group rates. I haven't checked into it yet, but I probably will when I get to making a lot of small items that may get out of my immediate family.


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

this is my story of how we should take responsibility of ourselves, my Dad had diabetes, many years ago he received some bad insulin from the drug store, he spent about 2 weeks in the hospital, and lost 2 weeks wages, he did not sue the drug store or the drug co for millions, all he ask for was his medical expenses and lost wages be paid, they paid gladly, this is what I feel is the right thing to do, nothing more, nothing less.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"It IS a shame that so many people are such opportunists. I can't help but think that the lady that sued McDonald's really helped fuel this type of thinking."

It's never long before this case comes up.

Many people might think differently about this-and probably many other-cases, if they knew anything about them.

In this case:

Start here….

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

And then do 15 more minutes of your own research.

If you're really touting this case as evidence of something being wrong with our justice system, it's pretty likely that you really don't know anything about the case.

Maybe we should all admit to ourselves when we do and do not know enough information to hold such strong opinions about … well … everything.

Maybe.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Far too many people try to blame someone else for their own stupidity. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions. These frivolous law suits have done more damage to businesses and driven up the cost to consumers and made it almost impossible to bring a product to the market unless you've got lots of cash. Personally I think if you bring a law suit against someone and you loose you should have to pay all costs to the defendant.

Good article Neil.


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## scrollgirl (May 28, 2010)

OK, NBeener. I concede. No, I didn't research the case. I formed a generalization from the headlines I read - probably out of context. I will admit when I am wrong. 

But that doesn't change my opinion that people do need to accept some responsibility for their own actions. That doesn't mean that I believe that manufacturers are not responsible for any safety of their products. It just means that I don't like how people try to make a quick buck (many times dishonestly) off of their own misuse of the products.

People like TS who have been hurt by others' lack of care and concern should be compensated.

I hope that clarifies what I meant. 

Sheila


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

hellavawreck et al., Germany has more lawyers per capita. We are number 2 and are trying harder. It was Dear Abby or Ann Landers a few years ago that had a letter from a lady whose brother was a professional plaintiff. He made a living off suing people and businesses. For instance, he would go into a store, slip and fall and settle out of court for a chunk of money. Then would later do the same thing somewhere else. You would think that people would catch on after a while.
Edit: I read the McD thing. It's still stupid to put a hot liquid in that position where it could spill or be spilled. Didn't the car have cup holders? Mine does and I use them for hot and cold drinks. One of the points of McD's coffee is that it is hot (I don't put it betwen my legs) and tastes good.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

I've read and reread the article, and this thread, and I don't really follow what's being complained about.

If, for example, I buy a table (whether I pay 10 bucks or 1000 doesn't seem relevant to me) - I think I have a reasonable expectation that it will function "as a table". If I put something on it that you might reasonably expect to be on a table, I'd expect the table *not* to collapse. If it *does* collapse I think I have a right to complain about it.
Yes, people need to take responsibility, in this case, the maker of the plant stand who has sold an item that wasn't fit for purpose. I'm presuming here that the vase in question wasn't "unreasonably" large or heavy.
If I buy a bunk bed for my 12 year old, and the first night it collapses, dumping him/her on the floor, I think I have a right to complain? child = vase, bed = plant stand - where's the difference?
If I buy a new car, I think I have the right to expect that the brake pedal will stop the car?

As for slamming your finger in the door of the cabinet - it seems obvious to me that that's a different issue - the injury wasn't due to a fault in the cabinet.
A plant stand that collapses *is* faulty.

All that said - what a stupid thing to do with a precious vase, but that doesn't excuse a faulty product.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It will be a moot point for all of us when one of these days there are not enough jobs in this country because all of the manufacturers have left the country, the mines have shut down, the timber industry closed, etc. etc. ect. I have heard it said that the only way to create true wealth is to mine it, manufacture it, or grow it. We're becoming a service oriented economy. As times get harder people will do without a fast meal hamburger and cook there own, they will cut their own yards or let the grass grow (better yet plant some food where the grass once growed), they'll shop at a big box wholesale grocery instead of a quick mart, they'll exterminate the pests themselves or maybe just let 'em live in, etc. etc. etc. as the King of Siam would say. If we think we can all make a living doing each others dirty laundry or cutting each other's grass we'll find out how that works out real quick. A common sense approach would be to simply cap the amount somebody can be awarded with all of these lawsuits. It would need to be a reasonable and fair amount and at least that would eliminate the 33% lawyers fees and the cost of the other lawyer to defend it. The settlement could be determined by a board made up of local people from different walks of life who are elected for short terms but the settlements would be capped. If not in this manner then in some other manner. We have all kinds of problems in this country; this is only one of the problems. *If we don't start coming up with some common sense sloutions to some of our problems we are going to be in a world of hurt.*


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

To me, this sure sounds like an incognito insurance advertisement. I see this kind of crap on the local TV all the time. Fear mongers, just more fear mongers…

I've fallen and I can't get up!


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

Several years ago, I considered making arts and crafts to sell at craft fairs. I finally decided that if I began to sell my work, it might take the fun out of woodworking and did not do it. The public opinion of "sue first and let the courts figure it out" is having a devastating affect on everyone. When is it ever going to end???

I agree that putting a cap on the amount is a solution, but how can you solve that problem when the legal system is part of the problem?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

brianinpa said:
I agree that putting a cap on the amount is a solution, but how can you solve that problem when the legal system is part of the problem?

To be fair, I would then also put a cap on just how big a company could/should be… OR set the personal lawsuit cap as a percentage of that company's resources, enough to seriously get their attention but not enough to put them out of business from ONE lawsuit. Say maybe 10% of a company's value.

Capitalism needs to work BOTH ways, not JUST for the corporations. When corporations get too big they end up "buying" the courts and ignoring the customer and employee base. Fining a billion dollar a year company a million bucks is like fining them 0.001 (one tenth of one percent) of their income. What is wrong with that?

That would be like any of you who makes, say $50,000, being fined $50 for a speeding ticket (same percentage). As you ALL know civil infraction tickets cost you MUCH MORE than that, as a percentage of your income. 
Just my 2 cents…


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Mike I agree with much of what you just said. However, I would say that the large corporations are much more like monopolies rather than capitalists - even if it's a small group of corporations making the same thing. That's just my humble opinion.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

woodsmithshop, Your dad got lucky. Took me 3 years before I could type after the Topamax OD, 4 before I could write coherently. It has been 6 and I still have cognative issues. It is beyond my comphrension that these idiots can get away with this, but they did. One of them claimed to be an expert witness and to have tgestifed in may cases. I can only wonder how many people's lives that clown has destroyed.

When Elliot Spitzer exposed Wall Street's criminal activities in managing retial brokerae accounts, tey paid what amounted to a day's profit in fines for the destruction of millions of people retirement accounts and making billons in bonuses. White collar crime does pay and it pays very well.

Anyway, I am beginning to wonder why I posted this to start with? The intent was to alert about potential problems with hobby woodworking and that insurance is available.


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

TopamaxSurvivor, Thanks for the post, I'll try to get things back on track here. My thoughts were about getting sued for woodworking. I have some woodworking jigs that I'm reluctant to post because I worry about someone copying one of them, using it improperly and then I'm ending up in a lawsuit. Knowing how lawyers work probably LJ too. Has such a thing ever happened? In this sue happy world it's just something I consider from time to time.
And a slightly different twist,I have also been foolish enough to build a copy of my homemade tablesaw for a client. He's a great client so a few years back when he moved to Hawaii and offered me the chance to get the table back I jumped at the offer.
TS, I never noticed the A after the P in your screen name. Thought it was TopmaxSurvivor and that you were probably a retired First Sargent before your "Sparky" jobs. I never heard of topamax but I'm glad you're a survivor and for what you bring to LJ.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I don't worry about it like I wound if I were producing a product or wiring in a customers building.

Google "Topamax side affects". Nasty stuff and most people suffer some negatives. A girl I grew up with is a nurse in a neurologist's office. She told most patients are on low doses like 25 mg. The has-mat data page said to not go over 200 for migraines. The incompetent imbecile put me on 400 mg!! But, justice starts at $400k, all the drs I have spoken with since deny any problems with it since they cover each other's hind ends, so we move on, but question everything a doctor tells us. If my daughter can diagnose the problem, it is difficult for me to believe the drs are all that incompetent; therefore, I am sure they are lying and more than willing to sacrifice patients rather than discipline one of their own ;-(


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## Pawky (Sep 22, 2010)

Darrell, with regards to you getting sued over a jig you post up on here, yes it can happen as our system is set up so anyone can sue for any reason. Now, with that it is supposed to work itself out so the ridiculous stuff basically gets thrown out and whatnot. Either way, I see no reason why anyone should be able to sue over you sharing information or whatever on an open site such as this. It is very different posting something documenting what you did and how you think it is supposed to work compared to making it and selling it to someone for use. In the latter, you are giving it to them and they are trusting you that it does in deed work and is safe. Even then, it doesn't necessarily mean they will win a lawsuit or anything, but it still is a pain and not always worth it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I couldn't find one of those guys that files frivolous lawsuits to file a good one when real malpractice was committed by an ignorant fool on me. Double dosed me on Topamax, cost me a year's work and it took 3 1/2 years to recover my ability to type. A friend who is an atty but does not do malpractice told me if anyone ever had a valid suit I do. I worry about being sued a lot less than I used to. Most of the frivolous suits have more to them like the MacDonald's Coffee suit when you hear the truth instead of a couple of sentences out of context. With that said, I'm not making stools for kids to stand on!!!


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Hello, I do make stools for kids to stand on.

I do it full time and make well over 5,000 per year. Have to carry 3 mill in liability plus do have problems trying to find insurance companies to cover me. The reason is that if some does get hurt from my negligence, the parents can sue for damages, then when the child is 18, the child can sue again.

Company has been in business for over 25 years and not had single lawsuit.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^ I certainly wasn't expecting that response. I'm paranoid. As a result, I have every manner of insurance imaginable. But I never imagined craftperson's insurance. It all makes me sad.


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## spunwood (Aug 20, 2010)

I believe the solution is plant-stand ming vase insurance, or putting sticky note warnings on all of our projects…no-toxic sticky notes.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Y'all ought to go find a pre-paid legal person in your neighborhood. We have it, and use it occasionally to resolve issues. Look it up online, it's not a joke. You need a good attorney in your corner at a decent rate to counter all the stoopid stuff people do to themselves and sue you for.


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## pneufab (Dec 19, 2009)

Knothead62 says, "Edit: I read the McD thing. It's still stupid to put a hot liquid in that position where it could spill or be spilled. Didn't the car have cup holders? Mine does and I use them for hot and cold drinks. One of the points of McD's coffee is that it is hot (I don't put it betwen my legs) and tastes good."

Although I agree with not putting anything that can burn me between my legs, this happened in 1992. Her Grandson most likely had an older vehicle. Correct me if I am wrong, but cup holders weren't all that popular in most vehicles until the mid to late 90's in vehicles. I had a 1984 Chevy S10 and a 91' Honda Civic and neither had cup holders in them.


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## Jack_T (Feb 6, 2010)

I believe that taking responsibility begins with the manufacturer of a product taking responsibility for making it properly. The vase maker did not do that. A vase was placed on it and it fell over. If it had been made properly it would not have fallen over.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Cr1, that was very generous of you to post that. Thank you.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

cr1, That doesn't sound like a great way to build trust with a customer. If I had to have someone sign paperwork every time I made a sale, I would not sell nearly the amount of items that I do. It would slow down the process terribly, not to mention people wondering why I would have them sign this if I was proud of my workmanship.

FYI, I make and sell children's products. Have been doing it since 1985 and have never had a problem with someone coming back to sue me over it. I do have problems trying to find a insurance company to give me liability insurance as most do not want the potential problem that I could have. I am required to carry a minimum of 2 mil product liability insurance by the companies that I sell to. I also do sell retail direct to customer.


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## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

My wife works for an attorney and tells me of some of the lawsuits people want to start. Some have merit, most don't. Her boss will come right out and tell people that he won't take their case because it's ridiculous. But they will eventually find an attorney that will.

I know there's legit law suits out there like in* Topamax's* case that should be pursued. How many times have we heard where a murderer got X amount of time, but the guy that embezzled money got 3 times the sentence. The outcomes of different trials don't make any sense. It all boils down to the almighty buck.

Insurance companies and lawyers thrive on the fact that people do not own up to their own responsibilities and don't admit that it's their fault most of the time. I don't really like the *suits* but the reason lawyers and insurance companies are getting rich is because of us. We are in fear that we will be sued so we heap on the insurance to cover ourselves, and we are greedy and look for the opportunity to make a fast buck by suing someone.

People it's time we take look at ourselves and put an end to this crap. (Not pointing fingers)


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

All you have to do is make up a waiver that is typed into your receipt that has the legal jargon stating, in essense, that you are not responsible in any way for what the products you sell are used for after purchase. Have them sign the receipt when they purchase something from you. They can still try to sue you but it will be much more difficult and they most likely will not pursue it when you have that paper as it will cost them time and money and they realize that they will most likely lose the battle unless they are insane and want to push push push to get a measly $3000 dollar vase covered. They would also have to prove that the vase was worth $3000 dollars, file for court, go to court, possibly hire a lawyer, do lots of research and paperwork. It ain't no easy thing. And keep all your old receipts. All people are not bad it's just the few that are idiots that people hear about and have to deal with. Plus, we all know there is much more to this story than just this little couple paragraph story, it just gets your attention and makes you that much more interested to just put this little bit in a report. Had they written out the entire story it would probably take an entire book to get the whole picture. For example…I was driving the other day and I got in a wreck and the guy cussed me out. I ended up going to the hospital for 2 weeks but I'm fine now. 
Look how much is missing from this small sentence. Who's fault was it? Why did I go to the hospital? There's always more to the story.

If you are going to be in business and selling products, these problems will come along and you have to be pro-active and takes steps to cover your butt. Larger companies have lawyers on staff that look for these problems and try to solve them before they happen. You can't cover every base, that would be impossible, and stressful, but if I read a story like this and I was selling my work I would go right now and put that into my receipts. If I don't give receipts I would start… and so on. In a changing world you have to change too. You can't just keep doing things the good ole' boy ways. I would love it if the world still worked like that, but I can't just sit back and assume that it does and then get mad when something happens contrary to that. That is insanity.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

I think it would be a good idea to have these people that look for opportunities to sue someone to go through a 3 step program:
1st, sue their own parents for raising a stupid child, if they win that one they go on to next step .
Step #2 would never happen !


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

I of course am not talking about larger courts. The issue here and in most cases with smaller wood workers shops as discussed on the ad was for the amount of 3000 dollars or amounts that would be seen in small claims court minus a jury. If you're talking about a jury then maybe you mean if your wood working in some way kills someone directly and the parents/ siblings /whoever sue you for millions of dollars. cr1 - I think your legal waiver above is perfect, I did not mean that statement as harm, obviously most people know that you have to have the correct legal jargon. I didn't know exactly what it was so I figured if you're going to write it, you'd do your research. I had not read the entire post before typing mine. I'm no lawyer just been to court before and learned a lot about small claims.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

No attorney could take the case aginst me….My assets wouldn't cover his closing argument let alone all the
work that went before the closing agrument…..Being poor has it's moment of light!!!


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## crimsonwood (Aug 20, 2010)

Im all for bludgeoning all the morons who wanna sue for everything with a club turned on the lathe made from Satine!!!

If anyone gets my ironic humor in this line, high five!!!!


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## amateur (Feb 15, 2011)

Wow, hot topic. 48 replies so far. What fascinates us so about this subject? I must admit, I sat here and read them all.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It all boils down to the almighty dollar. Anyone with nothing to get is not liable for anything. Those with deep pockets are targets for everything. Google Norman Goldman's pod casts. He was a corporate atty. He is very blunt about teh legal system. There is not reasonable expectation of justice anymore;-(


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## 308Gap (Mar 6, 2010)

google books???? who knew!! I just keep finding more things to read, or am I just getting older. hmm


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