# What makes a 'damn good woodworker'?



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

x


----------



## bobkas (May 23, 2010)

I have given this much thought in the last couple of years. I think most anyone can become good at the mechanics of woodworking. On some things I think I do a passable job but on others no matter how much I practice it just does not seem to come. After some time most people can do a good work on most projects. But to be the guy that everyone wants to watch or emulate is a gift. You can learn the skills but the artistry comes from within. Just my opinion.
Bob


----------



## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

Something in between. Original design is tough to teach/ learn and maybe most will never be great or even good at this aspect. The ability to turn a plan into a very nice piece can be developed. I think the most important things the rookie can have is the drive to get better and the courage to admit they have room for improvement.

I feel like there are more areas in which I can improve than areas I feel good about.


----------



## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

I think the design part is mostly a gift. And I think good designs are what make us say wow. Technical woodworkers can copy stuff by the droves, but coming up with a design that makes people say wow is a different story altogether. Esherick and Maloof and Nakashima had something special in them.

The other side of it is the technical part. I think repetition is the key here. When you can build a piece of furniture without saying "Ah crap, I should have done this first", I think you are getting closer to becoming a good woodworking. This involves multiple repitions of lots of different styles, construction elements, joinery, etc. This part takes time, I would say at least 10 years.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm a newbie, and I've had plenty of oops moments. At this point I feel comfortable looking at someone else's design and coming up with my own way to make it or even alter/improve it. However, I do not think I will ever be one who will be coming up with the ideas from scratch. The creative talents I have definitely do not reside in the aesthetic category.


----------



## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Patience.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

TIME

You have to be smart,
You have to be passionate.
You have to be able to visualize it in your head before you start,
You need experience using tools, which you gain as you go.
You need experience building different types of projects. 
There are many many different types of woodworking. A damn good woodworker is someone that is well rounded and able to work with many mediums.
I don't believe you have to be gifted, but for some people it just comes naturally. (Talent) 
One of the biggest thing though, in my opinion is making mistakes, You don't just pick up tools and become great. You have to tackle many different jobs and make mistakes, and learn from them.


----------



## JayT (May 6, 2012)

The technical part of woodworking can be learned through patience and practice. How long that takes depends on the person. People that are able to really focus and pay attention to details will gain skills much faster. People who are flexible in their thinking are able to more quickly apply skills across a variety of different applications. The ability to visualize a project and process before starting makes the whole thing more efficient with fewer mistakes. Those all combine to create the differences between an apprentice or journeyman, a craftsman and a master craftsman.

Design is different story. Some people just have an eye for design and creativity. I tend to think it is an inherent ability, that if fostered and developed, can produce the people who change the craft and take it to an art form.

Personally, I'm very good with the flexible thinking and OK on visualization, able to see projects in my head, combine elements and apply them in a variety of ways. I need to continue to work on the patience and practice part to really be able to make higher quality work. Game changing creative design, however, is beyond me. I've had people compliment my creativity before, but the reality is that those instances relate back to the first-it wasn't true creativity, it was the ability to combine elements of others' unique designs that gave the illusion of creativity.


----------



## lndfilwiz (Jan 7, 2014)

Measure 3 times, cut once!


----------



## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Woodworking is a type of artistry at the highest level. I think you have it in you, just like any composer or painter. They can still improve, evolve, and hone their craft. But, it will not be in the cards for all people to make it to the higher levels. You may be a good technician or good designer, but having both is a gift, not that one can't always improve in any aspect.


----------



## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Passion and Patience.


----------



## Garbanzolasvegas (Jan 15, 2015)

Patients.


----------



## HillbillyShooter (Feb 15, 2012)

Perseverance, along with patience, determination and a natural ability to understand and imagine perspective.


----------



## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Creativeness and skill in woodworking, or any other field is an ongoing lifetime journey and a never ending learning process…

Like the old saying goes "it's not the destination… it's the journey" However, I also feel that each destination reached is great because it means a new journey is now beginning…and this new journey will be even more exciting and fun because of things we have learned and experienced during my last journey.


----------



## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> I think the design part is mostly a gift. And I think good designs are what make us say wow. Technical woodworkers can copy stuff by the droves, but coming up with a design that makes people say wow is a different story altogether. Esherick and Maloof and Nakashima had something special in them.


Agree that design is what sets apart the best pieces.

However I do tend to disagree that it is a gift. Sure some people have much more aptitude for it, but everyone has some ability. What is lacking though is practice and design skill development.

There is very little true originality. This is true in all creative endeavors. Other ideas are blended, tweaked, and modified, in the end creating something original. And it is always an iterative process of refinement.

An architect refines their eye for design by visiting and looking at pictures of 10's of 1000's of buildings (and other sources of inspiration) and critiquing those designs. Refines their skill by practicing over and over putting the ideas in their head into a usable design. They throw away countless dead end designs in pursuit of the best one. All creative design shares these traits, including woodworking.

Great designers aren't just born with it. It takes a lot of work to become a great designer. Design is a skill.



> Personally, I m very good with the flexible thinking and OK on visualization, able to see projects in my head, combine elements and apply them in a variety of ways. I need to continue to work on the patience and practice part to really be able to make higher quality work. Game changing creative design, however, is beyond me. I ve had people compliment my creativity before, but the reality is that those instances relate back to the first-it wasn t true creativity, it was the ability to combine elements of others unique designs that gave the illusion of creativity.


Game changing creative design is almost always the result of lots of iterations of an idea, each generation adding to the originality. Often that evolution isn't seen.

Say for example you come up with a fairly original cabinet design that borrows elements from several others. Build that cabinet 10 times, each time tweaking it and adding more ideas to it/subtacting others, by the 10th iteration it appears far more creative and original; if someone only knew the 10th iteration, your ability as a designer would appear far greater than if they only knew the 1st iteration.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Do everything the opposite as I do….


----------



## MikeUT (Sep 5, 2014)

Woodworking is like anything other talent, whether you are talking about design or mechanics. If you want to get better you have to put in the time. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called 'Outliers' in which he studied what makes great people great. He determined, (and it has become somewhat accepted as a general rule) that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in any given field. I would say 'expert' is the same as 'quality woodworker' like you said. if you put in 9-5 woodworking that could be accomplished in 5-10 years and you could expect them to be a quality woodworker unless they were just showing up to collect a paycheck. I don't know what word you would use for someone beyond an expert, maybe master? I would say to obtain that title you'd have to multiply that 10k hours by a factor of 5 or 10.

I think there are more 'experts' or 'masters' in fabrication and the mechanics of woodworking because its a lot easier and a lot more fun to put in hours building instead of putting in the time designing. Saying that Maloof or anyone else just had a knack or gift for design would be borderline offensive to me if I were him. That's like saying Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time because he was born with talent. No one worked harder than Jordan. No one wanted it more than him. Millions of people are athletic, only dozens become an expert basketball player because they add thousands of hours of work to the natural ability they were blessed with.

Maloof is legendary because he was born with the predisposition to design and then he spent thousands of hours honing his skills. He may have had a head start because of his natural abilities but he got to the top because of his passion and the hours he put in to it.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Most probably don't challenge themselves enough early enough
in the learning process.

Also, the current fixation on the table saw as the key tool really
discourages woodworkers from doing something like building
a guitar, getting into carving or learning veneering early on.

Building boxes and tables is really just the beginning.

You can do some incredible stuff with modest tools and skills
if you just make up your mind to do something way out
of your league. I've done that several times and grown
tremendously as a result.


----------



## JKMDETAIL (Nov 13, 2013)

These are things I have thought about too. I don't have and or take the time to be that master. Working a full time job kinda gets in the way.

One of the things that some of us might not want to admit, we all make mistakes, or at least what we perceive as a mistake. Question is how do we cover up, change or correct a mis-cut.

A master makes it look easy yes. What we see is the end result, question is was that the way the intended it in the beginning?


----------



## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

Anyone can be taught the mechanics of woodworking. Take that knowledge and a good work ethic and after a number of years you will have a good woodworker. But there are things, even in the mechanics that cannot be taught or learned through experience. There are some things you either have a talent for or you don't. That is the difference in a good woodworker and an excellent one. The biggest thing may just be having the nerve to try something that is different. If all you try to do is what is taught then how can you take whatever you are doing, be it woodworking, cooking or knitting, to a different level.
Of my main equipment, the newest is a radial arm saw from the mid 80's. My table saw is old enough to say sears and roebuck. I have done production work and custom work with this same equipment for years. I have had people work for me who I could teach to do the production work, but I couldn't let them do any sanding on custom stuff.
Design can be taught. Again you may never be able to do more than you are taught without some sort of talent. There is very little if any truly unique things left in styling everything left now is basically tweaks to old designs.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

There are some really awesome posts here…keep em coming please! Some of the more in depth posts really strike a cord with me.
Your doing better job describing the whole thing better than I could….books and articles have been written on this, and still miss some attributes…maybe because some are indescribable? I think so.

No one has mentioned humility yet. The best wood workers I've met (and not met)are all very humble in what they do and why they do it. They have some strange combination of both humility and pride that's tough to explain.
They may command a higher price…but they don't do it for money. They don't do what they do for a pat on the back, or compliments, or to impress anyone.
I think that's where the 'passion' part fits in.

Carry on…please.

Loren…
A guitar is something that's on my bucket list. One of the things that puzzles me the most about that desire, is that I have no clue how to play a guitar, and no interest in learning.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

well, a guitar is just an example and a lot of people do wonder
if they could make one. It's not that difficult but it is
something of a marathon to finish the first one.

Shaker boxes are interesting too. The sides are bent on a 
hot pipe like guitar sides.


----------



## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

Hey Tony I think I may have looked at this the wrong way. I answered based on the quality of the final product, like someone who has made a living from wood most of his life might. As far as a damn good woodworker, have you ever seen a bad one. Not something built for sale but something built for ones self or as a gift. If a person enjoys what they are doing and is proud to be accomplishing something, then they are a good woodworker. We all have our own preferences in design and techniques to build things. I prefer older power tools and some hand tools. Some people prefer all hand or primitive tools, I'm kind of jealous of some of these people. Then you have the people who want to use the most modern tools and techniques. All of us must enjoy what we do to be willing to put out the money and time away from family to do what we do, although my grandkids love to be in the shop and help so instead of taking time away we have quality time in something we all enjoy.
The only bad woodworker is one who does it only for the money and then doesn't make sure his product is worth more than what his customer pays.

As for why I build things, I enjoy the feeling of accomplishing something. From design to completion, I enjoy the whole process. I enjoy building for others because I like to see them get something they want done the way they want instead of settling for what they can find in a store. I refinish and repair furniture also and nothing is better than re-doing a bedroom suite for a lady, in her 70's, that belonged to her grandmother. It was going to be thrown away until her husband stopped and talked to me about doing it, now they use it in their guest room.


----------



## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

my first project in woodworking 30 years ago was a bowlback mandolin. I also made a 12 string guitar, dulcimer and a few Africa instruments. Like you, Tony, I am ignorant when it comes to playing them. So, I would make them and then take them to friends who could tell me whether it sounded good or not. So, don't let that be a stumbling block in your endeavor.


----------



## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm REALLY just a "newbie beginner" when it comes to lathe turning. I see SO MANY mistakes and goof-ups in my work, yet when I bring them to church dinner on Wednesday nights to do a "show and tell" I am amazed at how people gush over them. They tell me I'm too critical of myself and how I should sell them… but I just smile and come back here and see some of you guys work …. SHEEESH! I have such a LONG WAY to go …


----------



## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Woodworking is something that is not as tangible as people think. Yes, it is layout, design, and execution, but there is more art involved than people think.
I remember back to my first commission - a coffee table and end tables made of cocobolo that I sold for $175. Summer of 1971. I clearly remember giving that check to my wife - who hated the fact that my "shop" was actually part of the attic that was above the living room where she watched television, and the power tools interrupted her listening. But when I walked in with that $175 check, and it paid the electric bill, the car payment, and the groceries for a month back then, she said nothing but had nothing to say - I had succeeded. (We have been divorced for over ten years, and my wife now of ten years totally understands - you need that, BTW - support)

So, what makes a master woodworker? Is it woodworking school? Is it completion of unbelievable projects? Who is to judge?
I currently have manufactured 69 custom guitars, along with I don't know how many jewelry boxes, wine racks, clocks, guitar repairs that others shied away from, and on and on. I totally understand how dozens of species of wood will work and how any given tool will work with the wood. Does that make me a master woodworker? Or do I have to totally understand dovetails, dado joints, other kinds of standard joinery, things that only Norm Abrams would talk about? Or does making 69 successful custom guitars and dozens upon dozens of other items along with the guitars make me a master?

Can I be top of the line because I have built period pieces for years, and refinished for twelve years, for up to nine antique dealers? And this was back in the 80's, and I have only improved since. Does that make me a master?

I've done all these things, and more. I call myself a master woodworker because I have been working wood for over 40 years, selling almost all the time. But to be honest, I have never attended a school, never been to a luthier school or cabinet making school. But also, I have read for decades, and learned. I have made things in my shop that people have paid hundreds of dollars for. People tell me that I can do things with wood that most others cannot. Does that make me a master woodworker?

I don't know. All I know is that if I sit in my recliner in the evening and sketch out something that I should not be able to make with wood, and then next day go into my shop and create it - and then…sell it for a few hundred dollars at one of the galleries I contribute to. Well…in my mind, I am a master. Why? Because I can create things that most woodworkers cannot, or just won't try to do. For me, that is satisfaction and confirmation that I know what I am doing.

And that is all the difference. Taking a $100 piece of wood, forming it up shaping it into something that will sell - that is master. Looking at some person's work who gets thousands of dollars for a piece and saying to myself, "I can do that easily…", that is master. At least in my mind.
You be the judge.


----------



## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

Since I am a newbie in this sphere, my natural inclination is to compare woodworking to something I know much better…photography. I've been doing scenic/nature photography for almost 40 years…just as many of you have been engaged in woodworking for that long.

From the "outside looking in" perspective of a newbie, I would say that a "damn good woodworker" (as with many things that involve creating something) is part technician, part artist.

In photography, pretty much anyone with enough initiative can learn how to run a camera. I have taught several people how to go from blurry, poorly exposed shots to having mostly well done images.

Figuring out where to point it and when to pull the trigger…well, that can't be learned or taught. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you will still get better with experience. If you don't have it…you never will.

While I have been able to turn terrible camera operators into passable ones…I have never been able to teach anyone how to "see" (as it is called in photography).

When it comes to woodworking, I know that I can "see" many interesting wood projects in my head. Whether or not I can eventually craft an equivalent real-world object remains to be seen.


----------



## Buckethead (Apr 14, 2013)

Shop porn makes the difference. Accept no substitute.


----------



## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

1. Desire, without it you won't hang long enough to learn what you can and can't do without instruction.
2. Spatial skills, You might not be able to "SEE" the entire thing, but maybe aspects of it that you can put together. The ability to break it down into parts, then figure out how they go together, its a puzzle.
3. Math skills, there's little high math, mostly general math, a smidge of basic algebra and geometry. Without it odds are you'll keep doing it wrong and possibly never know what's wrong.
4. Never be afraid to try a new way to do something, even if you prove it superior or inferior it might lead to an idea.
5. Don't be afraid of failure, all failure is, is proof something doesn't work, (its the puzzle thing again).


----------



## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

I agree with Waldo88. I have been making the same bedside / accent table for some time now each time I add or subtract something from the design. I started out copying a table from one of the woodworking books out there but as I added and subtracted I feel that I can now call it an orginal. I also believe that anyone can aquire the skills with practice and the right attitude. I've been at this for about 30 yrs and am still learning.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Passion would seem the most important to me. Without it, even talented people will never reach their pinnacle.

After passion would come practice. No one does everything woodwork right the first time.

With practice I would include tenacity. If you quit the first full height table rocks because of the quarter inch difference in leg lengths, that is, of course, the end of your woodworking career. If, on the other hand, you keep going, you can, eventually, have a nice coffee table. Of course, it may be a non standard height.

Watch a couple guys in a third world country work with a skill saw and you may see work which rivals what talented people with an array of equipment. Their passion may come from need, but it is there, none the less.

Now, toss quality equipment and a comfortable work environment into the fray and many an otherwise mediocre woodworker may become a "pro."

The better my equipment, the easier it was for me to be good. Working in a shop at the same temperature as it is outside, when the temperature is hovering round zero, will slow down and distract anyone.

Of course, the last two items cost money, so may be a bit slower in coming.

In the end, it boils down to "wanna."


----------



## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

Patience skill creativity being able to take feedback positively and alot of time failing.


----------



## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

If the ability to design is a gift, why do so many people go through design school? It's really more of a discipline than a gift. People who put long hours into developing the ability to create new forms become good designers. Those who sit at a desk with a pencil and give up after 30 minutes of doodling are bad designers.

It used to take me months to design a simple cabinet. I'd draw for a couple hours then step away and keep repeating that process. Once I started doing it for a living I didn't have that luxury. Deadlines required me to work continuously at a design for 8 hours at a time and complete the task within weeks.

With each completed project, it takes less time to draw up a design and the finished products look better than before. That's because good design, like anything else, simply requires lots of study and thousands of hours of directed and focused practice.

Regarding "master woodworkers", woodworking is a pretty broad discipline and no individual can master all aspects of it. I'd consider a master someone who has attained enough skill in several disciplines to produce museum-quality work.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

JAAune, of course, as we progress, we can look at a cabinet, dresser or other item and know, based on experience, which joints to use, where to dado and so on.

Type enough and you become pretty fast.


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

What makes a damn good woodworker?

I am not certain and not certain if I care. I am a hobby woodworking and have been for 40+ years. My goal is to gradually improve my skills and make/design projects that I am happy with and look at and say that I did good. The look on a grand kids face when I make a toy or a piece of furniture that I built for my wife. That is when I know I am pretty good.

I am certain others have different goals. For those making a living at woodworking, it is certainly different.


----------



## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

> JAAune, of course, as we progress, we can look at a cabinet, dresser or other item and know, based on experience, which joints to use, where to dado and so on.
> 
> Type enough and you become pretty fast.
> 
> - Kelly


This is true though I was thinking more about designing the form and not the joinery.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Maybe I have a tendency to want to romanticize it all a bit more than I should, but I have to strongly disagree with those who think that almost anyone can become a 'damn good woodworker' given enough schooling and time. 
That just simply isn't true in my experience.
Out of 100 people who come through the shop(most commonly 20-30 year old males) Off the top of my head, 20% are nothing short of incompetent. 50% are teachable and moldable in some aspects, but don't excel at any one, and really have no desire to. 25% have the want/desire and most of the 'skills' needed, but do still fall short in some aspects. I think less than 5% truly excel in all aspects.
Are the many aspects/talent's involved something that you have to be born with? I think so, yes. I don't mean to say that all these talents are a rare thing to be born with…I think in fact, more people than not are born with them, but don't know it. It takes someone to flip that switch. But even when the switch is flipped….some lights are brighter than others. Some though, just don't have that particular switch to begin with. They may have 4,5 or 6 others…but not the first 1 or 2, or the middle one.
Maybe some of these unknown gifts/talents are knowingly or unknowingly groomed as a small child….and this is why they are more apt to excel. Maybe….I can tell you, from my experience the old adage of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' is for the most part true when it comes to woodworkers. Most veterans (post groomable?)are hard assed and bull headed.

Why do some small children gravitate constantly towards the Mechano set…or the box of Lego? Why do some only want to color?Some love to read, others, not. Why do some small children have a natural ability to excel at math(simple or otherwise) while others hit a brick wall immediately.

I think most of those switches need to be present to begin with, as well as turned on at an early point in life for someone to become a damn good woodworker(or a damn good anything else for that matter).
There are a lot of different switches that people are, or aren't born with…I think it's a not often occasion that someone is born with enough of them, and have enough of them groomed early to be a damn good woodworker, and even more rare to become a 'master'.

Going to school and passing is no indication either imo….I've know designers, draftsmen…wood workers…who have all gone to school and graduated….and they suck.

As I said above, to say that almost anyone could be taught to be a damn good wood worker just isn't true in my opinion and experience.
That's akin to believing that a astrophysicist could have been a master carpenter, or vice versa. 
The right switches aren't present and/or the ones that may be, are too dim.

Or…I could have my head up my ass…?? But this has been my experience working with and teaching woodworkers for 25 years.

And to those part timers or hobbyists who might somehow take offense, or not feel included somehow in any of these description….don't.
There are 'weekend warriors' on this forum and elsewhere with mind blistering amounts of talent…some not so much. No different than the professional world. Some take that somewhere, some don't. Some don't even realize they have it….they just love what they do.

Hopefully my rambling makes sense.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Tony, I'm pretty sure you just said "passion." Then threw in a bit of "time and practice."

I've seen a goodly share of eight decades. The importance of that is, until they tore down my high school, a couple decades back, my first woodworking project remained on display in the Ag-woodworking-metal shop. There was a sign on it, which said: "If you've done this, you flunked."

Roughly ten or fifteen years after high school, I was invited to a prestigious art show for my work.

Clearly, I was not one of those who did not,initially, show talent. However, I did, later, develop a passion for the work. Even all these years later, I make things that belong in the trash or become someone's firewood.

To be a "damn fine woodworker," I think you need only create the occasional good piece. That could be said true about other industries too. It's kind the "Edison found x-thousand ways not to make a bulb, but once he found the right way, he made a lot of them" thing.

or not…


----------



## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

If it helps your argument, Tony, I was in college to become a journalist. I was doing rather poorly, truth be told. I left with an associates after two years and joined the Navy, where the recruiter promised me that I would get added journalism skills and write for the US Navy. This was during Vietnam. During bootcamp, they did extensive testing on all of us, to determine where and what we would do. I found myself being told that I would not become a journalist for the US Navy.

Instead, they discovered that I was very good at working with my hands, and that I had that spatial vision. They decided to make me an electrician instead. After electrical school, my entire graduating class found themselves heading for various ships stationed off the coast of Vietnam. I, on the other hand, found myself heading for a tender sitting in Norfolk, VA, that took care of all kinds of ships. I then was transferred to a tender that took care of nuclear subs. I also spent time as a commissioning crew of a destroyer escort, working all the systems and making sure it was right. They just kept using me to fix things, for almost nine years until I went into the reserves to finish my 20. Even then, I was shipped to sub bases for my two weeks, to work on the tenders to repair subs. Right up until I got out with 21 years total.
I think that is what you are talking about, and maybe why today, I am pretty decent with wood. I am much better with my hands first being guided by my mind, than I am at a keyboard.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I think whether you are gifted or passionate, you still have to do the work. 
You don't just pick up a pc of wood and turn it into something without putting in your time. 
But it's not all about time. You can be gifted and passionate and put in the time and still not be a damn good woodworker. 
I don't think anyone has said it above, but one of the dividing factors is your attention to detail.
I'm not sure what category ATD falls into, but without it you won't have the quality of a DGW.
There are many woodworkers that can do a dovetail joint, bend a radius, etc. etc. but the difference between a good woodworker and a damn good woodworker is the quality of what they do, not just being able to do it.

With that said, becoming a DGW, takes a lot of the above meshed into one. 
I think it can be learned if you're not gifted, but it depends on the individuals 
DESIRE, (another determining factor to becoming a DGW)


----------



## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Patience


----------



## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

In this day and age, fewer young people have any mechanical skills or experience. When a lot of us were young it was pretty common to see people working on cars or small engines. Today it is almost impossible to do this because of the changes in engines. With all the electronic gadgets today, few kids have hands on experience at building anything.

I interviewed a lot of college graduates and asked if they ever used a wrench or woodworking tool…..only one or two had. This is true not only for college grads but most young adults. I predict that in a few years the demand for technicians, electricians, mechanics, woodworkers is going to grow. People with these skills will be needed as fewer people can fix anything. I think learning these type of skills is a lot better than getting a college degree that does not lead to a job.

What does it take to be a woodworking is exposure to it, chance to try it, and working hard to learn. Not everyone will be a good designer. I believe starting early with skills is critical

Lastly, parents should encourage their kids to try toys that involve building or mechanical things. Even a set of blocks helps develop all kinds of skills such as spatial awareness. Legos is are great for learning all kinds of skills.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Redoak49, I agree that technical training needs to be addressed.

Just announced, 15 California junior colleges are offering 4 year
bachelors degree programs in trade skills. The one closest to
me is doing automotive technology.

Woodworking probably won't be one of them I'm sure, but
at least its a move in the right direction for trade training.


----------



## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

Redoak49 the problem these days is that most of the young people who become interested in woodworking or furniture building (which is what I consider myself because I am not as proficient in some skills) are interested in cnc machines or at least a machine with a digital measuring scale. What most of us do is dying off. I have had two of my three grandkids in my shop since the oldest was 3 and the other was 2. My youngest granddaughter just turned 2 and will be in there come this summer. Hopefully they will continue to enjoy and learn what I am able to teach them, then add their own ideas and become better than I am. I had a lady a few years ago that wanted me to teach her kids what I do because the shop class at school was aimed at cnc and she wanted them to learn how to do the work instead of telling a machine to do it.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A market for handmade things will endure, but for many
items automation is fine and brings the prices down.

You can't make a traditional hayrake or a basket or a
shaker box with a cnc for example. I do not know if a
yacht interior can be outfitted with a cnc… though
it is possible in theory as a practical matter it may 
be better to have a craftsperson make and install the
parts in his or her own way.

CNC machines help crank out guitars by the millions
but they will never replace concert level guitars made
by hand. The reason is CNC made guitars simply
fall on a bell curve in terms of tonal quality - some
are pretty good, most are average, and some are dogs,
even premium ones like Taylor. They should throw 
the lemons at the factory but they don't, they ship them.


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> In this day and age, fewer young people have any mechanical skills or experience. When a lot of us were young it was pretty common to see people working on cars or small engines. Today it is almost impossible to do this because of the changes in engines. With all the electronic gadgets today, few kids have hands on experience at building anything.
> 
> I interviewed a lot of college graduates and asked if they ever used a wrench or woodworking tool…..only one or two had. This is true not only for college grads but most young adults. I predict that in a few years the demand for technicians, electricians, mechanics, woodworkers is going to grow. People with these skills will be needed as fewer people can fix anything. I think learning these type of skills is a lot better than getting a college degree that does not lead to a job.
> 
> - Redoak49


Mechanical systems, yes. Ask those same people about coding, building something electronic, creating apps, etc. The same drive is there, just in a different platform. Few people older than my generation think about that. So yes, what was popular when you were young is no longer popular. People under 30 or so are less interested in woodworking or engines, but are heading full steam towards building and designing electronic gadgets. I'm 26 and one of a handful of people I know around my age who know how to work on engines or their way around woodworking.

Not better or worse, just different.

One of the biggest reasons is that skilled trades are no longer valued in this current economy. And that is not the fault of the current generation. They are reacting to what they see.

That being said, there is a resurgence in the DIY philosophy. More and more people are interested in doing everything for themselves. Unfortunately, right now the fad is pocket hole screw everything, and using pine from the BORG due to monetary costs.

Loren, I don't believe much CNC is used in the yacht industry. My field is in commercial shipbuilding, which is all still done by hand.


----------



## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

I agree that one is not better than the other, just different. But the truly innovative people are the ones that learn the basics then learn to use the computers. When you learn just what the computer can do you look at it and say "What can the computer do to accomplish this task?", but when you know the basics and have learned what basic tools can be made to do, you look at the computer and ask "What can I make the computer do to accomplish the task better than it is capable of doing?"

I have taken some basic cnc classes and I love cad programs so I have nothing against it, I just hate seeing something that I dearly love and enjoy die because there is an easier way of doing things.


----------



## koraile (Nov 7, 2013)

My grandfather always said you need a eye for lines, for curves and shapes, a ability to envision in Your mind what you are going to create before you start, to become a good woodcarver.

I dont think its one right answer for this question, But for me personaly its the passion for what i create, the enormus feeling of comleteness when i have crafted something and know i have done my outmost, when i have pushed my skills farther that i have ever done before and enlarged my abilities trough it.

I think you need some talent to be realy great, im 40 years old,i started carving at 5, and in the 26 years i have been teatching thousands of ppl from around the world woodcarving there is only a smal handfull that i would consider able to realy get to to the lvl where you realise that you dont have enaugh Lifetimes to realy master woodcarving, if i had a couple more Lifetimes i might consider saying i master my Craft fully.

I also think there will come a time when skills like Ours will again be valued a lott, the general population today lack a understanding of how Things work. How Things are Connected. I also think someone that are able to make masterpieces With the simplest of Tools will have a better understanding of this than someone using a cnc( i would not toutch one if i was payed to). And will also be able to reatch a higer lvl of skills. And to expand the skills to other materials like metals, leather, marble, etc etc

A understanding of the different types of Wood/materials and how they react and behave, i remember my grandfather took me to the wods to mark a Birch he had picked out, at the time i didnt realy understand it as i was wery Young. 15 years later i did, when he cut it Down, it had the right shape for the front keel of a boat, but it needed 15 years to grow to the right size.

Most ppl With a bit practical abilities can become good at woodworking trough practice and passion,some wery good, but i do think you need to be born With some skills, and you have to work hard and study a lott,have respect and pride of the craft, and create a lott to realy become "a master woodworker" i dont realy like that Word, but as asked. Just my personal opinion.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

A good book to read is The Unknown Craftsman. A insight to beauty. One year I made end grain cutting boards for friends and family,They were so nice nobody wanted so cut on them,When I placed utilty second to pursue beauty for the sake of beauty I broke the law of craftmanship.


----------



## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

You really generated a discussion here Tony. ...... Congrats.

Of course, like all the "great debate" topics, there isn't really an answer and that's what makes the debate.

My two cents worth, ....... it takes the ability to create damn good work. How that comes to be will vary but I know one when I see one.

Thanks for the fun.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

shipwright, I made everyone spurtles form some of the thousands of tons of apple wood that results from pruning or changes in orchards (when thousands of trees are uprooted for grapes or the next current public favorite. Many of them wouldn't use them, so I made them all more, so they had enough to abuse at least one.

So, yeah, we can understand.


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

To me… what makes a damn good woodworker is someone who loves wood… anybody can be a damn good worker…but you have to love knowing, understanding, and using wood.

Who can not be a damn good woodworker… if you have no interest in celebrating woods beauty.. if you shrink back from it's challenges… if you remain ignorant of how each wood is different… if you desire the end product more than the process…. If you worry more about what it will sell for, or if people will love it or not… if you are not willing or unable to "talk" to a piece of wood….to hear it's voice. If you can't enjoy wood, you will NOT be a damn good "wood"worker.

What makes a damn good woodworker is loving wood as a medium, as a companion, and giving natures beauty a second life. Good design celebrates this… good craftsmanship requires this …. and through this the artisan finds fulfillment.


----------



## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Hmmmmmm artist, design, eye for form and lines. It seems that most of the answers to this thread are written about special abilities or being an artist, or somehow brings it into the touchy feely realm. what makes a good woodworker isn't about being able to "let the wood speak" or show you what "it wants to be" It is about getting the result that YOU want and have willed. understanding that like children no two are alike. the grain is different. the cut is different. It can all be learned but to be a great wood worker this knowledge has to be applied. Art to some has become the excuse for a mistake. I believe that talent is really an ability to understand and apply fundamentals, not magic.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I agree with REO. I have a trememndous amount of reading
magazines and books under my belt from early one. I spent
a lot of time at the library when I was starting out and read
widely because I was interested in musical instruments and
cabinetmaking both. A few years in I found a collection
of 60 or more FWW back issues and some book collections
of early articles and I read them all cover-to-cover.

People come to the craft in different ways. I am self taught
from reading and experimentation. I've got to the point
where I feel I could build anything of modest size if I set
my mind to solving the big problems prior to starting,
prepare well for each unfamiliar step and stay the course
to bring the project to completion.

I'm not really a wood artist, I'm an artisan, very process
oriented. I don't get too upset if I don't get something 
perfect because I know I'll likely do something similar
a bit better the next time. Insights in how wood works
tend to be laterally applicable, to stretch an analogy…
especially with joinery and things like that where every 
dovetail or tenon you fit makes the next one go a little
easier.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

And, in support of that one does not have to be an artist to be a damn good woodworker, I've noticed many a cabinet maker who has little imagination, but is excellent at laying out and cutting to a line. In the end, their projects look as good as it gets, and just like ten thousand others.

Math, said to be a product of one side of the brain, is a must. Creativity is said to be from the other side. As we pursue our woodworking goals, we, often, find ourselves pulling from both sides of the brain and our ability to play around in a given hemisphere increases. So to may our ability to jump, quickly back and forth between the two. In short, we change our minds.


----------



## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Mr. Tony, You've stirred up quite a debate. Speaking for myself, I was raised in the trucking business, & drove many years OTR, & know nothin' much but trucking. The mechanics & changes I've learned & seen over the years to these trucks just blows my mind, but it never stopped me from workin' on my own truck. I always did as much as I possibly could, w/out going to a shop. Three years ago, I had the first accident in 35 yrs of trucking. It not only took my career, but changed my life entirely. I've been woodworking 10 - 12 years, & I'm proud to say, self taught. But when you're gone 6 - 8 wks at a time, sometimes it got to be tough on the thinker box from time to time in the shop where I was on projects. Take a look in the mirror, folks. What really does make a damn good wood worker? You do, of course. We all have our tricks & talents that we've learned while doin' what we love to do! A good wood worker is someone who has the curiosity to learn new ideas, enjoys the looks of his project, regardless of the mishaps, loves to learn to use new tools, meet & visit with new folks. A good wood worker likes to satisfy his customers with quality work, precision cuts & finishes, the use of different types of wood, & the project having just "that right look." There ain't nothin' better than the satisfied grin of customers when they have a look see at my work for the first time in the shop. Yes, I agree, there has to be some design notions, LOTS of patience, & the willingness to accept criticism & humility from others, but I also think a feller can learn anything he wants to learn, if he wants to learn it bad enough. Which brings me to my next point. What got me into woodworking? Well, being an OTR truck driver, & dispatch runnin me til I couldn't hardly stand up, my health was on a down hill slide. My loving bride decided I needed to get in & visit w/our Sawbones. After the check up, he looked me square in the eye, & said to me "Brad, I hate to break this to ya, but if ya don't quit eatin', drinkin', sleepin', & liviin' trucks my boy, we're gonna drop ya in a 6 ft hole long before your time." So, right then & there, My Bride decided i needed a hobby. I'm one of them sorta fellers that has to keep his mind & hands busy. So, here I am. 6 scroll saws, a drill press, 2 lathes, a table saw, and a shop full of other wood working tools later. Now I've got other physical issues to face, as well. My point is, a fellers' up bringin' don't necessarily mean he's going to be a good wood worker, or a cabinet builder, or a truck driver. The first thing that makes ya good at anything is the desire to learn, & keep learnin', from there, you can acquire everything else with time & practice. Just my two cents.


----------



## Garbanzolasvegas (Jan 15, 2015)

He or they still have all ten fingers?


----------



## cutworm (Oct 2, 2010)

1+ Earlex.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I 'think' I understand what a lot of you are saying when you claim that 'anyone' can become a DGW. I think…lol!

Even though I still don't agree with that blanket statement, I don't think we're really all that far off on our thoughts.

My biggest issue here is actually articulating why it is that I believe not just 'anyone' has it in them. Is woodworker too broad of a description? Maybe my definition of a DGW is different than most here? Different idea of a Master? Different idea of what 'anyone' means?

How about an example….Someone who I'm a huge fan of, and who posts on LJ's Benji Reyes.
http://lumberjocks.com/benjireyes/projects

To me….'anyone' means I could drive down the street to the nearest bus stop, and pick 10 people at random, and given enough training, schooling, and time…we would have 10 Benji Reyes equivalents.

Sorry, but you'll never be able to convince me of that.


----------



## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Tony,

I think you are referring to a DGW as being an artist while some others are referring them to be someone who has technically mastered wood and has some good designs, but may not be iconic designs. To me, someone can be a damn good woodworker without being someone like Krenov. If you are proficient with designs and have the technical expertise to pull them off without issue, that makes you a DGW.

What you are describing is what I would call a Master. Not just a DGW, but someone who goes above and beyond that.

I think a lot of people can be damn good woodworkers, but only a few can be masters. Of say 20 people you pull off the street, I think 1 or 2 of them can be Damn Good Woodworkers, and less than 1 in 100 would be a master.


----------



## vikingcape (Jan 3, 2013)

Practice. I can't comment on the woodworking but i make my living as a professional guitarist. People always make the mistake as if you are talented. I don`t buy talent for one second. In other words you have put the counltless hours in to perfect your craft. And then spend countless more making it even better. At least that is how i approach it.

Practice
Practice


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

jmartel

I think we're pretty much on the same page….and your right, I think maybe when I say DGW, I'm referring to something much closer to a master than most others are. I think that's my biggest struggle here trying to line up most everyone's definitions with mine.

Thanks.


----------



## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Sharp cutters


----------



## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

Sharp cutters


----------



## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

Sorry to dig this back up again…

...but an aspect of the question has been knocking around in my bullpen ever since. Just now I finally figured out what it was.

In some areas of interest, the craftspeople and the "designers" are considered to be separate and separately talented.

My key example would be in music, where there are many good singers who have never written a good song, and many songwriters who have never had a hit record as a singer. Similarly with something like playing a violin, where not only is playing it well considered mastery of the art of playing the fiddle…but playing it IS considered an art form, not just a technical skill.

The answers I saw here to Tony's question suggest to me that many in this crew consider woodworking to be different from the musical examples given above. Seems some would consider that the craft of molding wood into a pre-existing design is a technical skill, but not a form of art. Separately, a wood designer is expected to not only design something artistically, but to also have the skill to crank out a real-world implementation of it.

Though like many things there is probably some disagreement on this topic, can you school me on the how the woodworking community "leans" with respect to this aspect of "art"? Did I get it right based on the comments here, or did they not represent the broader agreement of woodworkers?

Is building a pre-existing design out of wood purely a skill? (and not an art form?)

Is a designer not a "damn good woodworker" if they can design an awesome project, but can't build it as well as a really skilled woodworker can?

Is woodworking a realm in which there is a reluctance to separate the craft and the design?


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You might want to look into David Pye's writings.

Krenov and Nakashima are worth look at too. They were
more craftsmen than designers, imo. Compared to french
master furniture designers their designs are pretty humble.

Hans Wegner is an example of a chair designer who could
certainly make chairs as he trained formally as a cabinetmaker 
in Europe. As a designer however he made models and no
doubt tooled around in the shop but he had a master 
craftsman working with him who built the prototypes
and a team of guys who put together the production.

Big topic, obviously. Lots of designers can't build well 
at all. I'm way better at building than design and I need
to work on design to get to where I want to go now
that my building skills are pretty well-rounded.


----------



## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

Sawdust 703 I'd say you put in 10 cents worth. Excellent take on what makes a good woodworker


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

So many sill theories. The answer is simple: I was married; My shop was my escape; I had to at least pretend to be accomplishing something. . . . . (okay, I might have had to run to town and buy a chair on occasion).


----------



## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Thank you Mr. Rick, I appreciate your compliments, Sir. I Think there are a lot of different ideas, or denominators, if you will, that folks get in their heads about wood working. I'd like to mention another big factor that I think makes a good wood worker, & that's the fascination of the creation. Think about that for a minute. Some of us are awesome lathe operators. Some of us do profound work with routers & table saws & the like. Others of us have a fascination with scroll saws, and the end result of the hours of leanin' over the blade. The instances are endless. But no matter what, you created it, am I not right? By all means you could've been lookin' at a pattern, made changes of your own, added ideas, etc, but the end result is yours. Yep! there are artists with names most of us ol' country boys can't pronounce, nor care to. This is my world gentleman. Not necessarily the computer, but this website. Folks like you & me. Wood workers. I may not fit in to the "higher class" of wood workers, but at the same time, I have no desire to. I am here to learn from others. Make an attempt at meetin' new folks. Get answers to questions that have got me stumped. See what you folks are dreamin' about that maybe I might be able to use, or create. Learn, Learn, & learn some more. My apologies for the ramble again, but this topic was brought up in a conversation today, & reminded me I wanted to add another post. Have good evening.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Jeff

Please DON'T be sorry. I'm personally really enjoying the responses on this topic. I had no idea when I posted the question, that it would be taken to this depth.
In hindsight….I wish I was a little(a lot?) more clear describing what my own thoughts were on the definitions of a 'technical' woodworker, a 'damn good woodworker' and a Master. I know what my definition/opinion is in my head…but I can't get it on the screen. LOL!
To be completely honest, throughout this thread…I've typed, deleted, re-typed and then deleted again on more occasions that I'd like to admit.
I'd have 6 paragraphs written and not be even close to what I was trying to get across….get pissed off….delete. Verbally, not a problem…..But a I writer I ain't.

I really don't think there are any solid answers to some of the questions asked here in a general woodworking sense. Maybe if the term woodworker was broken down into more finite trades and descriptions? But even that would be pretty overwhelming I think.

The word 'artist' here in this thread is adding to the complexity as well….the definition of artist is hugely subjective, personal and a slippery slope IMO.

To reference Loren's post above, and fully respecting your opinion Loren.


> Krenov and Nakashima are worth look at too. They were
> more craftsmen than designers, imo. Compared to french
> master furniture designers their designs are pretty humble


Personally, I would consider both to be artists of a much higher level than any french
master furniture designer, particularly Nakashima. Humble designs in my mind don't make one any less of an artist, or alter the depth of complexity. What I'm trying to say I guess, is that imo….simple lines CAN be very complex.
IMO, I think french renaissance furniture is some of the nastiest crap to ever be pulled out of a tree.
But that's only my opinion and millions would disagree…Is it art? Sure, I guess in some sort of perverted, mind scattering sense, it is.
The execution of it I would consider masterful….the designs…hideous.
Who's to say….

I work with and teach apprentices everyday and I believe something as simple(or complex) as all this can have an impact on how I do that.

This discussion is much appreciated people.


----------



## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with what you are saying Tony but in defence of the "French" masters, (Gole was Dutch, the. Roentgens and Reisner were German, etc,etc.) they were building and designing for arrogant aristocrats and royalty who were all out to one up each other in extravagance and opulence. They could afford anything and their patronage allowed the genius of these really damn good artisans to run wild. In today's context it may look foolish but the artistry, complexity and craftsmanship required to conceive and create these pieces surely qualifies them as some of the best ever.

Just sayin' ..........


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm not in this game to score points or fill in other people's score cards…..

Rather, anything and everything that I do in the shop that reflects knowledge, understanding and skill gives me a very great sense of satisfaction and any project that I completed, large or small is a personal victory.

There is a tremendous freedom gained in life when one ceases to compare them self with others.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Mainiac reminds me of a rule I, generally, follow - I don't compete.

I will still do what the other person does, but I try to take an approach so different there really is no competition.

There are a million ways to do that. For example, decades back, burril tables were the rage. They all had a stump with a slab on top. I wanted some of the nickels that came from that kind of work too, but competition was stiff, so I tried to be different enough I didn't have to compete.

As one example, instead of slab tops, I used tempered glass with etched designs, for example.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I agree with you Paul….except the artistry part. lol!
I can appreciated what it is, and why it is, and some of the more simple designs (if there is such a thing with renaissance furniture), I can appreciate as 'art'. The more complex designs are just too overwhelming for me to wrap my head around and appreciate as anything more than a jumbled mess…and borderline obnoxious.
I guess in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't necessarily omit it from the category of 'art'...depends who's standing in front of it, and how they define art.

Many consider Andy Warhol's can of tomato soup art?????

Art and religion….scary ********************…

You're killin' me here man!!


----------



## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

It's OK Tony. 
Maybe I'm defending myself a little here. I'm pretty deeply involved in a Louis IV style piece at the moment and really enjoying the challenge. It has given me a small understanding of just how good those people were.


----------



## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> All business aspects aside(that s a different world all together).
> What makes, in your opinion, a quality woodworker ? From complete rookie….to 40 year pro. Can someone become that person in 5 years? 10 years?
> 
> What skills does a complete rookie need to possess to become that 40 year pro….the guy that s a pleasure to work with…the guy that s amazing to watch.
> ...


No offense, but I think you've got some deep conceptual misconception going.

Before the war there was an American writer named Frederick Faust, who wrote gobs of pulp fiction under different pseudonyms. He's kind of an international superstar, though few people realize it. For example, there are reams of his soap opera stuff in Serbo-Croatian, hahaha!

Under the flag of "Max Brand", the Western writer, Faust said something profound: There is no fool like an educated fool.

What does four decades of practising jive give you? Well, you can suck harder and faster than anyone around, if what you're practising is bunk to begin with.

What I mean to say is, it's not about excellence, but excellence *in what*? As many have pointed out in this thread, "to what standard"? Being new to this internet woodworking thing, I only recently discovered a video by one Franz Klausz. He cuts dovetails with the same technique my grandfather Viktor did, pins first, lightening fast and mostly by eye. But there's plenty of guys, amateurs, even "newbees", on this forum who cut to a finer finish than is physically possibly with that technique. Can't do it yet at full olde schoole speed, but I'd still take pretty much anyone on in sheer speed, Kharkov WWI-era stylee, yet I'm humbled by the fit and finish of countless far slower woodworkers. If you've had the privilege of hands-on contact with the innards of antiques, even museum pieces, as I have, you'd know that even those guys would be be humbled by the precision of many "amateurs" today.

On the other hand, if you worked that slow grandpa would have beaten you with the strop, see what I mean?

Of course, there's a point where all the standards of speed, accuracy, elegance, and so on, pretty much converge. That's going to happen at 70+ years of age, as anyone coming from any truly olde schoole tradition can tell you.


----------



## benjireyes (Dec 21, 2009)

By observing how people sit or use furniture, passion, challenging yourself and learning from your mistakes, thinking out of the box. Learning for me is a continuing process. Wishing I have another lifetime to learn and discover more of this beautiful craft! LJ has been a big help bringing us woodworkers together and learning from one another.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Personally I'm more into the French art deco guys like
Ruhlmann, but the Ebonistes are pretty badass in their
own way… not that I would want to live in a home
surrounded by some of that stuff.

In terms of design I look at Malloof, Nakashima and
Krenov and I see guys who like wood and they lke
form and figure, but they don't like the formalism
of working with veneers in highly controlled, purposeful
way. The french masters fully integrated veneering
in the way they thought about design so that's why 
I find them more refined in their design sensibilities.

Don't get me wrong though, I like earthy furniture
too. I'm just a beginner with veneer so I am perhaps
apt to put exquisite veneer work on a pedestal.


----------



## benjireyes (Dec 21, 2009)

By observing how people sit or use furniture, passion, challenging yourself and learning from your mistakes, thinking out of the box. Learning for me is a continuing process. Wishing I have another lifetime to learn and discover more of this beautiful craft! LJ has been a big help bringing us woodworkers together and learning from one another.


----------



## FUBARed11 (Jan 27, 2015)

This was a super interesting topic.

I'm a brand new rookie woodworker with little experience and even less tools if that's possible. but I fly through the creative stuff, NOW. It's something I've always had, but honed over TIME to get any good at.

over the past 5 years or so I've really let myself get carried away with the thought process. (it started with that stupid annoying but fitting saying, "think outside the box" The best way I can describe how to "get outside the box" is to start an idea with a "want" in mind and NO limitations, then reign in) Now I can belt out ideas all day long. whatever that means i don't know. but it's so enjoyable to think up a thing then see it right in front of you doing a job, that you do it again and again, getting faster and better every time.

Whatever the case "IMO", it's the thought PROCESS you use to get there and point of view used. because we all apply the same basic principals and go through mostly the same steps on any project. Wood! Shapes! Gaps! Math… Swearing! Building! finishing. "next time"-ing. So its how you get there. sorta kinda. there's no manual. you gotta want to do it and let yourself get there. Remember there are no rules. When you get a tiny idea, hold onto it and get a little stupid & carried away over it. it'll change and you'll change, both for the better.

I don't think anybody cares, but this is the way it works in my brain if you're interested. 
(gonna be crude and as full of plot holes, but who cares? theres no right or wrong way)

first it starts with a NEED or PURPOSE. in my case I had a ton of crap and no place to hold it.

Then, you need: to WANT to do it -or- the arrogance/confidence to say "that sucks. I can do it so much better" -or- no other acceptable options, -or- you're pi$$-poor, Like me.

I combed the net for something cool with personality to serve my purpose & found nothing that fit the bill. So I took the space I had and the function I needed it to perform, and looked at the best way for it all to fit. after that I had some basic shapes and spaces put together. I now had a real basic fuzzy mental outline in mind.

at that point you probably rough out the basic construction, "bottom, space here, wall there, 3' tall, flat top, Godzilla toys go here, and so on."

But as it stands it's a boring shape with no personality & therefore not worth doing. (if this is going to be the finished product I might as well buy ikea… then run myself over with a steamroller) So what's the desired effect I want? Cool! PERSONALITY! Interest! And that all lies in the eye of the beholder.

At that point you go off the wall crazy adding stuff: details, inlay, fancy schmancey contrasting hardwoods, whistles, mud flaps, quad 50 cal's, offroad lights, the works. You get carried away. But then you tug it in to what you can afford/have the capabilities/tools to do. Maybe you can tweak some stuff to work with You, but w/e, it's all up to how much you want it/care.

Now I have my basic functional item, some things -I- like to add the desired visual effect, goofy cool stuff or stunning beauty & grace (by the way 9 times out of 10, ideas will come from the way that guy did that thing, the way those curvy lines looked on the side of that truck as it passed, the way headlights bounced off that fat bald chicks head, etc. It's everywhere and anywhere.)

Time to start measuring for real. UH-Oh! I must not have had my helmet on the last time I ran face first into that brick wall, because this doesn't make a damn bit of sense in how it fits together. Troubleshoot. Break the parts up into an exploded view in your head or pick a particular angle to look it from and scribble like crazy on paper, go fast. (LABEL IT!) Cover one small part at a time. How the parts meet the base. How that 1 corner will be joined. You'll get good at this and eventually it will look like Ironman in his garage throwin hologram blueprint crap through the air, I kid you not. (I start my suit next week) Visualize it in chunks, see it work, see the tools going through it, how you're going to hold it, fit it on the drill press table. etc. 
It's easy to overthink though. I SUCK at that.

Make a parts list, type it up on the computer and print it. Use the draggy line tool in Microsoft Windows "paint" program to make outlines of your pieces and print them. Every COMPUTER (not mac) comes with Paint since before the dinosaurs were using it.

Go out get your wood and start cutting!
Maybe you'll have to go back to the drawing board because you see things differently now that parts are in hand. This is what happened to me. I had a design based on aesthetics, with some wasted real estate. But when I put it all in front of me, I saw that if I moved two things around I could gain 25% more storage, it would function better, and look even cooler. So that was pretty sweet.

And HUZZAH! Now that I got my first table saw I can FINISH IT!!

The next thing I'm going to think up and do this with is a work bench that can house your entire shop full of bench mounted tools on it one second, then make them gone for maximum space the next. And dangit it is so fun to do!

If yopu're goin g to reply to me specifically, be gentle, it's only my second time. Posting


----------



## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Well fubar, I don't know how much more gentle I can say it. I stated in an earlier post that one of the many things that makes a good wdwkr is the fascination of the creation. Just what is it you just had, might I ask, in all them fancy words & what have ya's? Ya can look at this 1000 ways, & trust me, somebody will make an attempt to outsmart ya. No matter what. It's been said we all have our tricks. We all have our own ideas. Is that not why we all have our own shops? Our own interests in wood woodworking? And it's also been said in more than one way, "he who dies with the most toys, wins, or has the emptiest wallet, or?" You, Mr. Fubar, & Mr. Ric, & a small hand full of others I could name, are what makes a good woodworker. Your mind, your hands, your willingness to learn, & keep learning, meeting new folks, the list goes on. Just my two cents.


----------



## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> Personally I m more into the French art deco guys like
> Ruhlmann, but the Ebonistes are pretty badass in their
> own way… not that I would want to live in a home
> surrounded by some of that stuff.
> ...


The fancy old French stuff was made by big crews of specialists, and I think it looks it- more a kind of grand theater than woodworking, in my opinion. Ruhlmann's stuff was also made by a crew, but it looks completely unified.

Speaking of Ruhlamnn and Krenov,

http://jameskrenov.com/furniture.htm

the design of the cabinet on the upper right is straight out of what is probably Ruhlmann's most known style of cabinet, for example:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jacques-Emile_Ruhlmann_(Mus%C3%A9e_des_Beaux-Arts_de_Lyon)_(5469658728).jpg


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> No offense, but I think you ve got some deep conceptual misconception going.
> 
> - bobro


No offense taken bobro, it's not the first time I've been told I have my head up my arse. lol!

Maybe then when I'm 70 it'll all come in to focus for me. I hope it takes at least that long, because the day I 'think' I've got it all figured out, both hand and mind, is the day I walk away. I've been trying since I was about 6 or 7, sitting on a bench in my uncles shop, watching in amazement(I'm 47 now).

Thankfully….I'm not even close.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks again everyone for your input here…I wish I could chime in more(even a bit) on some of the styles and names that are being thrown around here, but I'm ignorant in many of those aspects.
One think I've always been guilty of, and it has admittedly held me back in the design aspect of wood working, is not taking enough interest in the styles that…..don't interest me.
Without a doubt, It holds me back when I try to 'push the envelope'. I still push it, and most often, get where I'm going, but quite often end up 'pushing it' in 6 different directions to get there….only to figure out in the end, or near the end that something as simple as half inch here or there, a slight radius change, even very subtle color tone changes can have a astounding effect on something I don't like…even though the changes I might make had nothing to do with what it is I didn't like to begin with.

I have it in me….but it runs from me. lol!


----------



## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Very interesting topic. Just read through the posts and I can't add much to what has already been said. I build strictly from my mind. Nothing is on paper. I have to "see" the finished product in my mind before I can build it. As far as the technical side, I critique my own work harshly and try to make sure that every piece is better than the last. I don't consider myself "great", I would say that I have moderate skill. But I try to take great pride in what I build.


----------



## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

IMO the humility to say I don't know everything and willingness to learn new techniques helps make a quality woodworker.

I read an interview quite a while ago with Sam maloof. He was asked if he ever makes a mistake as his furniture is flawless. His reply:
Every piece I've ever made has a mistake in it. Knowing how to either fix that mistake or incorporate it intot he project is key.


----------



## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> I have it in me….but it runs from me. lol!
> 
> - Tony_S


Oh yes, Tony. You *do* have it in you.
........ and that is one answer to the original question. ....... You!


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> something as simple as half inch here or there, a slight radius change, even very subtle color tone changes can have a astounding effect on something
> 
> - Tony_S


This is so true. 
Having an eye for detail and proportion is a valuable skill.


----------



## HornedWoodwork (Jan 28, 2015)

I've always thought that there are two distinct disciplines at play in woodwork. The first is a very practical dsicipline. You need to learn to work your tools, you need to learn the mechanics of wood and how to create useful items that function as intended. You need to practice until the tools feel lilke extensions of yourself and you can feel your way through the wood.

The second discipline is artistic. It is an appreciation of form and of beauty and of how nature has sculputed the wood. It is an ability to find balance in the form, to work with light and dark and to work with positive and negative space. It is about expresssion and capturing that beauty which nature has cast in the wood.

Some woodworkers have one or the other, a few have plenty of both, a master has balanced these worlds and does something bold with that balance. Essentially master woodworking is a perfect balance between form and function.


----------



## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

Ok. I keep reading about doing things to where they aren't similar to someone else's work. That is easy to do considering you are trying not to look like anyone else's work. The challenge is when there is a whole house of antique furniture and you have to build something that is functional, fits in the décor and is unique to you. We keep talking about damn good woodworker and master woodworker in definitive terms, which to my mind is impossible to do. On this site we have woodcarvers, furniture builders, carpenters, scroll saw artists, and who knows what other kinds of woodworkers, and every one has a different skill set and artistic vision. 
I am a furniture builder who has mainly done pieces in the oak reproduction area because that its what most of the customers in my area want. Lately there are more rustic and modern customers but they are still relatively few.
To me what makes a good woodworker is the drive and passion to do it. Regardless of skill level someone passionate about wood and willing to try is a good woodworker.
A master on the other hand takes that passion and combines it with great skill resulting in work the rest of us can only hope to equal.


----------



## FUBARed11 (Jan 27, 2015)

> Well fubar, I don t know how much more gentle I can say it. I stated in an earlier post that one of the many things that makes a good wdwkr is the fascination of the creation. Just what is it you just had, might I ask, in all them fancy words & what have ya s? Ya can look at this 1000 ways, & trust me, somebody will make an attempt to outsmart ya. No matter what. It s been said we all have our tricks. We all have our own ideas. Is that not why we all have our own shops? Our own interests in wood woodworking? And it s also been said in more than one way, "he who dies with the most toys, wins, or has the emptiest wallet, or?" You, Mr. Fubar, & Mr. Ric, & a small hand full of others I could name, are what makes a good woodworker. Your mind, your hands, your willingness to learn, & keep learning, meeting new folks, the list goes on. Just my two cents.
> 
> - sawdust703


Whooaaaaaa!

When I started reading this I was so scared that you were going to RIP ME TO SHREDS over my idiotic and overly wordy post but you turned it around at the last second and paid me a very nice and undeserved compliment. Thank you.

... dude, quit I! you're makin me blush in front of all the other woodwoorkeeeerrrrrssss!!!!!


----------



## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

you're welcome, fubar


----------



## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

artistry
able to learn on a daily bases
able to learn the proper way
creative
respect for your tools.(there just waiting to hurt you!)
able to visualize what your customer wants.
practice (pro ball players don't just walk on to the field,they have been practicing for years) don,t have a project,practice making dovetails or mortises or…


----------



## waywardbills (Apr 16, 2012)

I am just trying to get the basics down, although having just broached 50 last year I would say my patience has grown over the years. So I am optimistic if I live to be 200 I may get good at this.

There are good technicians and then there are artists , I don't know if its learned or a gift form god either way I am way down the ladder form either .


----------



## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Bill, if I may say so Sir, you are no further down the ladder, as you put it, than any of the rest of us woodworkers here, my friend. I will agree with you on one account. It is a gift from God, but how you use that gift makes you the woodworker. What are you interested in building/making? Where are your interests? The basics are important, but you'll learn as you work with more tools. Patience is a virtue that comes with time, & practice. There are hotshots on here that would like you to believe they've got it figured out, top to bottom. I wish I could say I did, but I'm still to busy learning myself. I'm a self taught woodworker. Over the years, I've spent a lot of time reading, going to the library, studying different types of wood, finishes, saw blades, tools, you name it. Reason being is I've been a truck driver all my life, & my wife decided I needed a hobby. I'd never had one. So, I started reading. Started buying a few cheap tools, & playing around with them, some of them I still have, & use everyday. The main idea is there are many different things that make a good woodworker. Attitude, mind set, ability to use your mind & hands together to create, the ability to use & understand power & hand tools, mechanics, the list goes on & on Bill. The real truth of the matter is, spend less time trying to impress your buddies, & more time making Bill happy.


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I would think its about

-Perfecting one's skill with tools and figuring our efficient ways of work opens the joy of woodworking because as your skill progresses, your mistakes leading to frustration decrease.

-Understanding design and how to take advantage of the natural grains or patterns in wood to create something interesting and beautiful.

-How to turn a mistake into a "happy accident" by either fixing it or using it instead of starting over like most of us do.

-Learning to get past the "right off the machine" mentality and use hand tools to "sneak up" on the final demensions.

-Getting past what most of us start out as: "wood mechanics" fretting about 64'ths of an inch and spending hours setting up a machine, making 13 test cuts and then 2 final cuts ….

...rather than using hand tools.


----------

