# Pocket Holes Bent Table Top



## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Hey all,

So I started my first build, a coffee table for our basement. The base went together pretty well, a few lessons learned, as it now is a bit wobbly. That doesn't concern me, it will be sitting on a rug or carpet so it won't wobble then. I know not the best construction, but like I said, I have learned what I did wrong.

My question is on the table top. I bought quality alder wood, milled it, and laid it out, all looked good. I used pocket holes and glue to join them, and now the top is pretty warped. I cannot fix it with a belt sander and no where around me seems to rent their equipment out to flatten it (which I understand).

So did the pocket holes really pull it up? The boards were S3S milled at the yard then I did the final side.

I did learn to not do that again (pocket holes), so that is good, but an expensive lesson. So here is my 2nd question. I need a coffee table soon, as we are selling our current house and moving. Should I try to remill the top and do the edge joining properly (cauls, and way more clamps) or should I buy some plywood, edge band it, and call it good? I really like the thickness and solidness of the top, just not the curve. I like the alder because it will end up being more rustic, and I am not sure plywood will give me the same effect.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

When I make large tabletops and coffee table tops, I just use glue and clamps. No need for pocket screws, dowels, or biscuits really.

Edgebanded plywood is never going to look as nice or wear as well as a solid wood top. 
Do you have a jointer that can handle the boards?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Alder is the best.

Pics help. Press the img button a ive where you are typing. Self explanatory from there. Take pics in landscape unless you want them sideways.

Again. Alder is the champion of woods.

The apron should've helped with the issue.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Let me clarify, there was no apron. The legs were framed up, and then the table top sitting on that frame (not attached yet).

Sounds like I should re-do the table with solid wood, plus that is what the wife wants! And this time, no pocket holes. I don't have a jointer, but the yard I buy from can make the boards S3S, which is about as good as I can do. I do have a table saw, so could use that. That is how I milled the original top, and it came out really nicely. This time I would do the same, but with glue, clamps, and cauls (I have some spare plywood I can use to make cauls).

I'll try to get some pictures in a little bit.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

The pocket screws may have pulled things a bit, maybe not. If it was all flat when you put them in, probably not. It probably is warped either from a bad glueup, or the wood just adjusted to wherever you have it, and now it is warped.

I never in my life have used pocket screws or any other hardware to make an indoor table top.

The only hardware I ever used on a table top of any type was galvanized carriage bolts to hold down 2X6's that I bolted to a seat frame as a top on a picnic table that was to sit outside. Had that thing outside for years, left it at the house when I sold the house.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Tennessee, could have been a bad glue up. I noticed when I tightened the screws that it was immediately warped, which is why I suspect that. Of course, the error is probably between the drill and the floor!

I think the consensus is that I should not use pocket holes again (they were great to join the frame parts up, I think that is more of the intent) for the table top.


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## ScottM (Jul 10, 2012)

Can you just remove the screws and see what happens? They are in the bottom and it is glued, right?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Level the top with a hand plane. Easy to do.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

ScottM, I did that immediately, no luck. I think the glue set up too fast (used Titebond), and no change.

I have never used a hand plane, would that fix it without much effort, maybe a couple hours?

I added a photo showing the table top sitting on the frame (just to show the bowing). The top exhibits the same shape, hopefully that helps.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Pocket screws didn't cause that. I have never used pocket screw to glue up a top. I have used biscuits to help align the boards for the top even those aren't really necessary.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Thanks Bruce. That seems to be the consensus, but you think it was a bad glue up?


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## d38 (Sep 6, 2017)

With the screws out, see if a local cabinet shop has a drum sander wide enough for it. 
Depending on their fee, it might be worth it.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Scott, I don't think I replied to you properly. I tried to pull the screws, no such luck, I think because they are glued in too.

Looking more at it, I think I could hand plane it down, if you all think that would be do-able. Certainly easier and cheaper to buy a hand plane than to rebuild this thing!

I still suspect something about how the screws were driven, but I also did not use cauls, and not nearly enough clamps. Next time I will do that, but I am hopeful that hand planing will fix this thing.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Hand plane. Alder is easy to plane.

Planes sold at hardware store are typically
an inferior grade of tool that may be frustrating
to use in making furniture. If you'd rather buy
a good one do some research.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

It could be that the edge(s) of your boards are not perfectly perpendicular to the face.



> ...but the yard I buy from can make the boards S3S, which is about as good as I can do. I do have a table saw, so could use that.
> 
> - newCOlumber


Boards have 4 S's, so how are you squaring up the 4th side? Table saw? If your yard's S3S job is slightly off, or your squaring of the 4th side isn't accurate (is your blade perfectly perpendicular to the table?), things will get wonky. Even a very tiny variation on each board will add-up when you start edge-gluing them together. All of those slight imperfections start adding up. Coopers purposely do this to the extreme to make round barrels out of "square" boards.

Remedies listed by other jocks above will help you correct this project. For your next project, double-check that your supplier's S3S job is accurate and make sure your technique for squaring the 4th side is also accurate.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Jon I used my table saw. I will check the squaring next time, it is possible it isn't perfect. I think I have learned quite a bit from this discussion, and will hand-plane the top (or try to!)

This begs another question. I can get S4S boards but only 3/4" thick. Obviously I don't have to worry about milling those myself, but how would you get a 1.5" thick top? Just stack boards and glue the faces? Would you use different sized boards for each layer? There is some appeal there versus working with more raw wood but this has bothered me.

EDIT: It appears this is something pretty common. I think I would get, say, 1×6 boards, cut in half (2 4' sections) and laminate the faces, then edge glue the larger pieces. I think the joints would disappear well with sanding (it appeared to on that top I made), but now I am concerned about my ability to mill the wood and buying S4S could be a better option in the future.

I do want to thank everyone for the tips, I really enjoy learning!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Jon I used my table saw. I will check the squaring next time, it is possible it isn t perfect. I think I have learned quite a bit from this discussion, and will hand-plane the top (or try to!)
> 
> - newCOlumber


Alternate the faces when you cut them so that any error is compensated for by the adjoining board. If your saw is at 89.9º, then by alternating them, you'll have a 90.1º board glued to it and a perfect 180º joint. Same goes for the jointer. Hand tool guys do the same thing by clamping the boards face-to-face when they plane the edges. It gives them a wider surface to support the plane, but it also compensates for their angle being slightly off.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Newc you just were over your head. Theres a lot of skill and experience that's need to make a flat table top.
You have to know your wood and your tools or machines. No one can teach you this with words.
Try simpler projects.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

I am open to suggestions. I thought I was doing a simple project, now trying to salvage it so I don't need to re-do the whole top.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> Jon I used my table saw. I will check the squaring next time, it is possible it isn t perfect. I think I have learned quite a bit from this discussion, and will hand-plane the top (or try to!)


Groovy. Rich has good advice. Keep in mind that a lot of people like to alternate the grain pattern on boards to help minimize cupping and warping in the future. That could work with, or against, alternating boards to even out the milling imperfections. Plan ahead accordingly 



> This begs another question. I can get S4S boards but only 3/4" thick.


One caveat to S4S, and even S3S to an extent - there's no guarantee that your board is flat. It may have been flat when the yard milled it, but has since cupped or warped. If it's already at 3/4" thick, then you either have to live with the warping or plane it flat and live with it being less than 3/4" thick.



> Obviously I don t have to worry about milling those myself, but how would you get a 1.5" thick top? Just stack boards and glue the faces? Would you use different sized boards for each layer? There is some appeal there versus working with more raw wood but this has bothered me.
> 
> - newCOlumber


Those are reasonable ways to make thicker tops. With pluses and minuses to each. If you only want 1.5" thick for aesthetic purposes, you could make a 3/4" top and band it with boards that are 1.5" wide. You could even make the field out of plywood which can be less expensive than solid wood. This is a very popular technique for bookshelves.


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## newCOlumber (Mar 9, 2018)

Rich's advice made a ton of sense, thanks!

Good point about the warping. I have found the S4S at this yard to be pretty high quality. I have used their boards for crown molding risers on our kitchen cabinets and another project and found them to be good quality. I know they can warp over time but that could happen no matter what.

Doing the shelves with plywood and then banded in real wood is how I did shelves in a closet a couple years ago. I didn't rip the wood down since I didn't own a table saw then, nor did I sand it, but I do like that technique. I am thinking that is the fastest and least error prone way to fix this situation. I have a couple other tables in mind for the future that I don't think would call for a top this thick, but would use aprons, so I am more comfortable using S4S stock for those projects (or plywood, if it is cheaper). Even the glue-up in S4S, I feel better about knowing what I should have done on this one.

Jon, you've been a treasure trove of information, and gotten me excited to fix this and move on to something else.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Well the alternating ring subject is one that gets debated quite often on here. I like to lay out the boards for the best appearance, and ignore the direction of the rings.

Tage Frid is totally against the alternating rings. He says that's great if you want a washboard, but that orienting them all in the same direction makes a board that's easier to manage.

*Tage Frid on Alternating Rings*

Another thing most books tell you is to alternate the wood to compensate for the cupping caused by shrinkage. This would be fine if you wanted to design a washboard. But if you want to use your wood, for example, for a tabletop, it will take a lot of screws to hold it down, plus every second board will usually have a lot of sapwood, especially today with the shortage and high cost of wood, where every piece must be used. But, if we don't alternate the wood, it will work together and form an arch that will be very easy to hold down with a few screws. Also, we will have the center of the wood facing up, meaning less sapwood, better color, harder and usually fewer knots.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

EDIT - I rethought the new thought I had placed here, but now I think perhaps I thought wrong


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> Jon, you ve been a treasure trove of information, and gotten me excited to fix this and move on to something else.
> 
> - newCOlumber


Yeah! Glad to help!


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I use lots of pocket screws but I would never use them in this situation. They do pull slightly and in this case the effect is cumulative. As someone already said, neither screws nor dowels nor anything else is necessary for strength. If you destructively test a proper glue up, it will almost never break at the glue joint.


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## AxkMan (Jan 20, 2018)

Hand planing makes sense since you can't get the screws off. If you could detach it, you would lie it on a large flat service and clamp down everywhere. This helps sometimes to unwarp (sometimes easy enough) but really depends on how large an area. You could try to flip it and setup a clamping system if you want to try that. You need a completely flat service and a few weeks.

Planing is the tried and true method.


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