# Discussion on Glues



## gmaffPappy (Nov 2, 2012)

I've been searching for a good thread on Glues, but haven't found one. There are a log, but they're specific to one brand/type. If there's good general thread out there, and I've just missed it, please redirect me. I wasn't sure which forum to put this query into, so I figured, "Glues join things." Maybe this is the place. Let me know if there's a better home for this post.

If not--Let's start the conversation

I'm using a log of 16oz bottles of Titebond Original and II. It's time to get larger volumes to save some $$, but I'm not sure what glues I should get. There are so many types and brands for different uses, and I wanted to find out people's preferences and why, with the hopes of choosing a few good glues for my different situations, and the situations you guys know I'll face, but haven't.

Mostly, I use it for furniture, cabinets, frames…things like that. Normal set times are okay, but there will be times, due to the size and complexity of the builds, it would make sense to get glues with longer set times. I've read several posts that say Titebond Extended actually sets up in about the same time as regular Titebond…..True? Other options?

I've noticed there are colored glues and even some that are florescent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the glue be applied sufficient enough to bond, clamped tight, but not too tight, to squeeze out, let it set 12-24 hours, clean up the excess, and sanded so that no perceivable glue joint is noticeable? Why would it need to be colored (etc.) if it hopefully won't be seen anyways?

I should have a good glue to use when making items for use with food. Anything good in that category?

Should I consider different glues for different woods?

There's a good trick I've seen. When you need to temporarily glue something, you can put Blue Tape on both pieces and then CA glue on one strip of tape and activator on the other. Press the pieces together, and presto! You have two pieces that hold very well, like needed with jigs. Then when you separate them, the tape peals away leaving 0 residue. I live this trick. What are some good CA glues? I guess Activator is Activator. Is there a need to match brands? Which is better, or is CA glue is CA glue, is CA glue?

What am I missing? I'm sure there's a ton on this topic and a book somewhere I would buy with the answers, but book smart is one thing, and it's nothing compared to learning from those with personal experience.

Thanks Guys, and Let the Discussion Begin!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, Big question. I've pretty much always used Titebond II. Started out long ago with Elmers.

You mentioned needing to get a larger quantity. I purchase a gallon of titebond ($17?). The thing is as you pour some off to fill your glue bottle the air space in the jug will let your remaining glue thicken up. A tip that some and I use is to pour the gallon off into soda bottles about the size of your glue bottle. A tightened cap and no air, and the glue stays fresh. You can also squeeze it a bit to get out that last bit of airspace.

Another note: I learned this when I was in Luthier school. Titebond sands. Elmers white glue won't, it just gets shiny. It needs to be scraped off. Not much of a tip but interesting factoid.


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## gmaffPappy (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks for the tip. I didn't know that you couldn't sand Elmer's. Interesting

There's also the big topic of Epoxy. I can't wait to get into filling cavities in some really cool wood with a neat, clear, colored Epoxy fill. I really like the look. I also gather that Epoxy mixed with saw dust makes a good filler. Just sand, don't brush the dust away, and put in some epoxy. It's supposed to look natural in small blemishes/gaps. I'll have to try when my joints aren't perfect. But in that case, what Epoxy is best…..and what should I use to color and fill voids, or is there a difference?


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I tried Elmers Wood Glue and have had no issues (Elmers glue is not sandable for finishing, Elmers Wood glue is sandable for finishing), then tried Gorilla Wood Glue and also had no issues. After ready about the difference of Titebond III, I now get titebond III by the gallon, I also get Titebond Hide Glue in 8 oz, I did try Titebond Extended 16 oz but it was too runny & took along time to cure, I did try Titebond Quick and Thick 8 oz but the glue was hardened inside the bottles before I even opened up the bottle from the store. Titebond rep said the Quick and Thick only has a usage shelf life of only 18 monthes from time of manufacture. With CA adhesive in get the multi packs of the small tubes. I used to keep several Loctite brand Epoxy Syringe Packages on hand, but all six I had, with each one of the tubes hardened up before I took them out of the package. So I switched to Gorilla brand Epoxy Syringe packages…. I do put a date of purchase on all the glue bottles and Epoxy packages now. If you want to get the wood glues in the gallon size or larger, I suggest only if you use it up within one year. You don't know how long it's been setting at the store shelf or warehouse.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I use Titebond II flourescent. Never heard of it? I did a blog post over a year ago about it.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I tried Elmers Wood Glue and have had no issues (Elmers glue is not sandable for finishing, Elmers Wood glue is sandable for finishing),
> - WoodenDreams


That's right. I did specify 'white' glue. At one time, back when I started using it, the choices were pretty much white glue or hide glue. White glue is very good structurally for wood but when you sand it, the wood around the glue area sands faster than the glue. Thus it has to be scraped off if there is excess.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

My glue of choice is Titebond II. As for an epoxy, the only one that has worked flawlessly has been JB Weld. In a test with many other epoxies, including Gorilla, (shown on you tube), JB was the only one that held up to 10x better than any of the others. JB is available in a clear formula and the pro size is 1 pint. That may be OK since epoxy is used sparingly.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

My advice - don't expect glue to make up for a poorly fitted joint.


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## gmaffPappy (Nov 2, 2012)

> I use Titebond II flourescent. Never heard of it? I did a blog post over a year ago about it.
> 
> - Rich


Thanks! This is pretty cool. I'll definitely keep this in mind. I would have missed the glue on the surface also.


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## gmaffPappy (Nov 2, 2012)

> My advice - don t expect glue to make up for a poorly fitted joint.
> 
> - Phil32


Thanks for the advice. I hope I'm not that bad at cutting joints…at least I don't think I am so far. If the joint doesn't fit, it's time to remake the piece and learn from the mistake(s).

I'm designing most of my furniture to break down for moving. Like with Revolutionary and Civil War field furniture, it will look great, but be mobile. So I won't glue most of them. But I know there are times I'll need to do glue. There will always be things like:Kitchen Cabinets, frames, panels, pieces and parts that I won't want to come apart.

Just looking for glue options and more knowledge.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

This is a sticky subject. ;-)

I use TB2 nearly all of the time. For sticking stuff together, I use either Gorilla or JB Weld epoxies. For filling gaps/holes, I use Alumilite Ultra Clear Cast resin and dye it with food coloring when I want color.

Just a thought but, if you're building period furniture, like field furniture, you may want to research what was used in that era. I'm guessing hide glue.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Wow, a generic glue thread! What exactly do you want to know?

Are you sure you searched for existing information?

I've tossed out information on epoxies numerous times, like here:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/293385
https://www.lumberjocks.com/replies/5190263
https://www.lumberjocks.com/replies/4898897

Super glue .vs. epoxy and compatibility issues here:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/303332

There are a ton of threads on super glue, depending on what you want to know?
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/26643

Every adhesive has a purpose, as new adhesives are constantly developed to solve bonding problems.

Examples:
- Poly Vinyl Acetate (PVA) is base for all standard white/yellow wood glue. The different types (I, II, III) are modified to prevent moisture reversion, or to make glue 'waterproof' (As much as wood can be waterproof?)

- UV dye in PVA glues is to help automated UV light inspection systems easily check glue joints, and see if there are errant finger prints before finishing. UV dye in adhesives is very common. Practically all the sealants used by auto factories have dye, it's so robot can see and self adjust glue bead locations.

- Polyurethane is nasty glue for wood for many reasons, but yet it sticks to most anything, except silicone rubber. And you can make it stick to silicone with right surface etch before applications.

- Titebond Extend wood glue has lower solids, and some slow evaporation glycols in to to help slow set speed. It's really useful for big assembles, or folks like me in Arizona trying to glue wood at 100F or less than 10% RH in the shop. It's my primary adhesive 9 months of the year.

- Titebond makes molding & trim PVA that is nothing more than longer length polyvinyl chains and some fine fillers to thicken it up and prevent runs. But it is still a PVA wood glue with same pro/con as any other.

- When it comes to food rated glue, regular white glue is certified as safe for kinds to eat raw (and they do). Type I PVA wood glue is just as safe when wet. Type II and III have some 'unsafe when wet' things inside, but all PVA glues are safe for food contact when dry. Hide glue has been used in kids toys for centuries, so it is another food safe glue.

If you want to know about ALL the types of wood glue, Wiki does a nice job summarizing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_glue

BTW - I am not a glue expert, but I've spent half my work life developing new adhesives, coatings and encapsulants; and the equipment to apply them in production environments. Even have a couple patents in epoxy and polyurethanes formulations. Have also built aerospace composites and done wood working as hobbies for over 35 years. So I might be able to accurately answer some additional technical questions? 
Post them if you like!

Cheers!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I use almost exclusively hide glues, hot and liquid. They have many advantages and very few disadvantages however they have been out-marketed in the modern age and overtaken by "easier to use" pva's. Almost anyone who takes the time to really try hide glues becomes a convert. I know I did.
The debate is too long for a comment here but if you are interested check out this blog series.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/shipwright/blog/series/5437
BTW I'm not a wingnut. This stuff is good!


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## farmfromkansas (Jun 16, 2019)

I buy titebond at Menards by the gallon when they have a sale. The original titebond does not damage by freezing as easily as II and III so can tolerate cooler temps in winter. I like Rockler's glue bottles. The new ones have a larger lid opening, so is easier to fill. Use the caps for the glue so it does not develop a skin in the smaller bottle.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I use almost exclusively hide glues, hot and liquid.
> 
> - shipwright


It was you who got me to try protein glues. Never looked back. I recall the time I glued up a dovetailed drawer only to realize after it dried that I'd forgotten to cut the groove for the bottom in the drawer front. Thank goodness I used hide glue and could reverse it.

For the record: Hide glue fluoresces.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm a fan of hide glues but unless I'm a doing veneer or significant glue up I rarely use hot hide glue. I'm a little afraid to use hide glue for glue blocks on the lathe because I've seen demonstrations about shocking pieces apart but perhaps using a higher gram strength strength it is not a problem. It also seems to take longer to set than PVA. BTW, here is an article on making your own liquid hide glue.

I personally don't like Titebond PVA glues. I have used them twice and had problems both times. First time was TB3 to glue staves for a beer mug and it is the only time I've ever had a glue joint fail. Second time was TB original and the glue thickened in the bottle after only using it once even though the code date says It was less than 9 months old. I've had a gallon jug of Elmer's wood glue for over 5 years now and it still seems to be just as good as the first day i bought it. TB seems to be more slippery than the Elmer's so I've had more problems with joints slipping when clamping. That could be a good thing for tight fitting M&T or dovetails but in that case I prefer liquid hide glue.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

Titebond III , 
The End


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Captainklutz, Do you have any experience using Scotch 2 mil VHB transfer tape? I have been using it in 1/4" wide strips on large scale train models that I make using a combination of metals, plastics and wood. So far the tape has held up well with no separation of the bonded parts. I really like this technology and wonder if there are other similar products that you can recommend. High strength is not needed. I have used cyanoacrylate, JB weld, contact cement and Titebond II where I felt it was the best choice. VHB, cyanoacrylate and contact cement are used where an instant bond is needed. I use yellow glue and epoxy when I want a permanent strong bond. Being a consumer, I have to get my adhesives from local places like, Home Depot or Lowes. I wish I had access to commercial products not available at the big box stores.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Captainklutz, Do you have any experience using Scotch 2 mil VHB transfer tape?
> clip…...
> 
> - MrRon


Yes, I have some VHB experience. Challenge with VHB tape is there are dozens of different formulations based on surface and final bond properties, plus many different configurations of tape thickness. You can get VHB as single adhesive layer on removable carrier, or with 2 different adhesive types on each side of foam based cushioning carrier; and everything in between. Making matters worse, they come up with new formulations all the time. TBH - Need to have PN(s) to discuss details?

3M markets VHB as cure all, but it does have limitations. It is basically a flexible acrylic adhesive that can be formulated to cure like anaerobic CA (no free oxygen), or cure with moisture like urethane. It's weakness, as with all acrylics is they do not like high heat, and will crystallize - which destroys shear strength. 
Another fallacy of VHB is bond strength. VHB tapes have high initial tack, but take 24 hrs to 7 days before they reach maximum strength.

If you are looking for instant grab, multi-surface adhesion. Choices are going to be urethane modified acrylic materials; like VHB or flexiblized cyanoacrylate glues. If instant bond is not a priority, then can explore urethane, epoxies, silicones, and/or compounded versions targeted for special bonding challenges.

For the record, you are not limited to 'home stores' as supplier for adhesives. There are several companies that sell industrial grade adhesives to consumers.

Granger carries a wide variety of 3M and Loctite materials if you are willing/able to dig through various companies application notes to find right one.

Another good source is https://www.ellsworth.com/. Ellsworth is mfg rep or full blown distributor for just about every adhesive mfg you could want? They have large online store. 
If you approach them with professionally courtesy, and buy stuff from them; their applications and sales staff are extremely knowledgeable. They like to solve unique problems for customers as long as it means they sell stuff. 
FWIW - Many of the application development folks I worked with during my career, who are now retired from one of major chemical/adhesive companies; work part or full time for Ellsworth. There is massive amount of experience hidden inside Ellsworth. I used them as part of consulting job a few months ago, and found old friend that works there now. 

Last but not least:
It's hard for anyone to recommend adhesives with out physically seeing the materials, and/or understanding 
processing limitations created by chosen assembly methods, and adhesive curing limitations. If you have specific bonding challenge that is failing, maybe make a new post with lots of pictures and technical information. That or simply call the folks at Ellsworth with same information. 

Cheers!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> - CaptainKlutz


Thanks for the rapid response. I thought VHB was the do all until you set me straight. Like you, I am also an engineer; shipbuilding was my game; now I am retired and playing with trains.


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## gmaffPappy (Nov 2, 2012)

This is great info, Guy's. Thanks for chiming in.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Since I build model trains, I don't think I would have problems with any adhesive I use.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I buy the original TB by the gallon, but struggle to use it up within a few years (but I save so much over the quarts!)

TBII dark for walnut is another favorite, especially with small (6"x6") walnut burl veneers and the inevitable pin holes with squeeze-through.

Epoxy is my go-to for complex finger joint boxes where I need extra time.

I also saw the neat blue tape trick on the Wood Whisper videos, but I'll stick (heh heh) to my reliable DS tape. Any time I buy "super glue", it dries up soon after opening so I can't mentally deal with the waste.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Personally, I am not a fan of epoxy glues for wood bonding. My "go to" glue is usually Titebond, a PVA base glue. For what its worth here is some information.

https://www.rockler.com/learn/understanding-wood-glue/

The most important question most of us ask about a wood glue is, "How strong is it?" The answer may be different than you think. Fine Woodworking magazine recently tested the core group of woodworking glues for strength in holding together a typical open mortise joint and published the results in their August, 2007 issue. Interestingly, epoxy and polyurtethane, two glues with a reputation for being super tough, turned out to be a disappointment in some situations. Others that you might rate as pretty wimpy, like liquid hide glue, held up very well. As it turns out, though, there's a reason why good old yellow PVA wood glue and the more advanced type 1 waterproof glues, like Titebond III, are the glues of choice for so many applications they're inexpensive, easy to use, and in just about every situation, the strongest.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I disagree that strength is the be all and end all. Pretty much all of the glues listed are stronger than the wood being glued.
PVA glues however seal wood against finishes, creep, almost always require clamping pressure, and are not readily reversible.
Animal protein glues do not seal wood against finishes, do not creep, often need no clamps at all, and are always reversible.
I used to use PVAs all the time. Now I almost never do.

Just my opinion I guess.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

Most of my gluing is in assembling cedar boxes and applying inlays. I use Elmer's white glue for this. I buy two gallons a year and have not had any shelf life issues with it. Elmer's white glue dries clear, which I like, but any missed glue on the surface shows up as a cloudy spot on cedar if it is not sanded very well after applied and before finishing. I also mix dust from my sander with white glue to fill in minute cracks or voids. 
I also use liquid hide glue when I cannot access any squeeze out to sand. Clear finish over it does not give that same problem of cloudiness. The clear finish adheres to the hide glue with no visible issues.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Paul, you are right about most of today's glues being stronger than the wood itself. And each glue has its positives and negatives and you select it for the job it needs to do. Years ago when I was building homebuilt aircraft, resorcinol was the specified glue to use as it had the strongest bond, was waterproof, and was not affected by molds, mildew, or any deteriorating influence. I never liked working with the stuff and it had an awful dark reddish color, but it did the job.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> Paul, you are right about most of today s glues being stronger than the wood itself. And each glue has its positives and negatives and you select it for the job it needs to do. Years ago when I was building homebuilt aircraft, resorcinol was the specified glue to use as it had the strongest bond, was waterproof, and was not affected by molds, mildew, or any deteriorating influence. I never liked working with the stuff and it had an awful dark reddish color, but it did the job.
> 
> - Planeman40


I used to use resorcinol glue in my boat building and repair days. It was the only one to use. That was many years ago. I wonder what the glue of choice is today since most boats are fiberglass.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I used to use resorcinol glue in my boat building and repair days. It was the only one to use. That was many years ago. I wonder what the glue of choice is today since most boats are fiberglass.

- MrRon
[/QUOTE]

Epoxies have completely taken over for the formaldehyde based (resorcinol, the UF 109 I grew up with) glues. They are less toxic and more forgiving of less than perfect fits. They also don't require the clamping pressure that the plastic resin glues do.


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