# Need advice on best way to secure legs on kitchen table



## 12point

Im an amateur at best woodworker. Ive only made adirondack chairs but my wife has asked me to make her a dining room table. I have some really nice 1 5/8" white oak lumber. I have the table top together. Its roughlyroughly 28 square feet. I was looking at the table legs at lowes and home depot and noticed some had a threaded bolt out of the top and some have a pre drilled hole. I kinda like the idea of the table legs having a threaded bolt coming out the top. It seems that would be secure along with added support but ultimately I wanted to get advice on here for the strongest way to fasten the legs since this is a very heavy top. Thanks


----------



## GrandpaLen

brantley,

Normally the legs would fasten to the apron - or - the apron would be attached by mortise and tenons to the legs.

The Table Top would then be fastened to the apron with special fasteners which allow for the seasonal movement of the wooden table top.

Wrok Safely and have Fun. - Grandpa Len


----------



## CueballRosendaul

I second Len, you'll want some kind of skirt board around the bottom of the table top. They make simple figure 8 fasteners, or you could use pocket screws (good excuse to buy a Kreg jig) since the top is pretty thick. The skirt board not only gives you a fastening surface for the legs, but also makes them more stable and strong. Imagine pushing the table across the floor and how much stress you'd be putting on the legs and fasteners. Crawl under a couple tables and you'll get a better sense for it.

A simple system for attaching the legs to the apron is with a metal bracket. Check out this page: https://www.adamswoodproducts.com/configure.asp?cat=24


----------



## pintodeluxe

For simple tables, I like aprons that attach to the legs directly with dowels, mortise and tenons, or pocket hole screws. For additional support you can install a corner brace with lag bolt into the leg. The corner brace can be pre-fab metal, or made from wood. The brace and lag bolt are invisible from the top of table.

Best of luck


----------



## JTuretsky

you have interesting dimensions for the table brantley, 28 square feet leaves alot for the imagination, 2' x 14' could be an interesting table. but perhaps u mean 4' x 7'.

I agree with the above posts calling for an apron or skirt.

A single bolt coming from the top of the leg would seem to be appropriate to attack a stick to a flate surface but ignores a few key elements. One such would be "racking", your massive (white oak @ 1 5/8 is pretty heavy) is going to sway with the wind if you just bolt 4 legs straight into it. Would the "added support" you speak of in your post would be hinting at aprons?

Aprons function to keep your surface flat over time and also to keep your legs together and prevent the racking ( a good wide apron could potentially negate the need for stretchers closer to the bottom of the legs, but keep in mind a dining room table gets a lot of use)

As has been mentioned above, you must be aware of fastening these components to the table surface and you should be aware of the woods movement over time across its grain, (i.e don't accidentally lock the wood in by putting two or more screws on a short end of the table through your apron)

Other options for dining room table are trestle style tables, very sturdy indeed for dining tables. http://www.michaelhoywoodworking.com/resources/trestle.jpg

Pictures would certainly help!


----------



## 12point

Jacob you are correct . The table is 4×7. Yea I do plan on having an apron just not real sure on the layout of it as im not real satisfied with the stability of the table top now…so I want to do something underneath that will make this solid. I do have a kreg mini pocket hole jig but it didnt do much other than join the boards together. (for the top)


----------



## WDHLT15

Mortise and tenon the leg to the apron, then peg using glue with a through-dowel. Then on the inside, attach 45 degree corner blocks using the pocket screws to attach the corner blocks to the aprons.


----------



## bondogaposis

Another option to the above good advice would be to make this a trestle table. Something like this one.


----------



## 12point

Thanks for the tips everyone. I have looked at the trestle style tables and im wanting to go a different route. I like the more traditional tables with 4 legs on the corners.


----------



## markone

How thick is your top? Thicker tops generally look nice with thicker legs. 3/4" top? Maybe 2 3/4" legs would look balanced. 1" top? Maybe 3 1/2" legs. 1 1/4" top? Maybe 4 or 4 1/2" legs. You have a large, weighty top. It will definitely need aprons. As mentioned above, mortise and tenon joinery is best and plenty strong enough.

Here is a page of table base designs that I've used before as a jumping off point projects. Good luck with yours. 
http://www.tablelegs.com/BaseKits/DiningTableBaseKits.aspx


----------



## Grandpa

Use hange screws to attach the legs to the apron. This way you can remove the legs for miging the table. As you have already noticed a piece of white oak that is 28 sq ft by 1 5/8 thick is heavy. Add legs and the weight comes pretty wuickly up to more than one or 2 people can manage. Most of the other methods make the legs permenant.


----------



## 12point

Guys, what kind of wood should i use for the aprons? would 2×4 be ok? I want to say our table now has 1×6 and i can barely get my legs under it. ( im 6' 3" )


----------



## Mosquito

2×4 would be more than ok. On my coffee table, end table, and a sewing table I'm working on now, I used 1×4 for the coffee table and sewing table, and 1×3 for the end table.

I used mortise and tenon with pocket hole screws for the coffee table (the M&T joints turned out loose, so I screwed them together) and I just screwed the legs into the apron from the inside on my end table.

For the sewing table, I did sliding M&T joints for the legs and apron, and then table leg brackets on the inside, which many have suggested. I wanted to make it easy to move, so the legs slide onto the the tenons, and then a bolt goes through the corner bracket, and into a threaded insert in the legs. I wish I had a picture of it as described, but the best I have for now is this for the sliding M&T joints between legs and apron.


----------



## REL

Brantley, you remind me of myself when I started. I'm still a somewhat "newer" woodworker with a lot of expensive equipment. However, I have built a lot of tables during the past 5-6 years.

1-The guys are right recommending Classic Designs by Matthew Burak. His catalog has a bunch of table leg designs to view and/or buy. I have purchased a couple of sets for my first two ventures. (They came out beautiful.)

2- Go with the metal brackets and side mounted screws/bolts; easy to remove. This will allow you to move the table more easily from room to room. The size is 4×7. That's big table. You can use a biscuit cutter/maker to help align the legs with the apron.

3-The apron should be proportioned to the structure. Your size table, would require at least 4" wide. One inch thick should be enough. If you hit your knees, make the legs longer. However, keep in mind the height of the chairs and other family members.

4-I like pocket holes to attach the top. Do allow for wood movement. I also like the metal brackets fitted in an apron grove (Rockler).

Good luck and have fun. Finishing is the real work!


----------



## 12point

Just an update. I have the legs and part of the apron assembled. Its coming along nicely. I have a few more pieces of the apron to put on and some corner braces.

Is there anything i could put under the table legs if the table is not completely level? Ive seen them before but not sure where ic an get them. You can screw them out to raise or lower the piece.

Does anybody know a good way to install these hangar bolts? i had a time installing them them on the table legs. I am going to try and put them on the corner braces. Never used them before and not sure the best way to drive them into the wood with nothing to secure the drill too?


----------



## REL

Brantley, Rockler has leg adjustable inserts. I've seen adequate ones at Home Depot. They should be available at your local hardware store.

Just noticed your comment on the hanger bolts. You need to drill holes into the legs. Drill on the "right angle" corner of each leg at the correct height for the metal or wood bracket hole. You can buy a corner support for the leg at Harbor Freight (about $5.00), or make one from pieces of wood to hold angle correctly for drilling. Drill press is helpful, but not necessary.

Let's see some pictures.


----------



## DrDirt

I like mosquito's tennon - when i did my 4 leg dining table, I actually made a sliding dovetail, so that the leg would anchor, but I added corner blocks: This has kept the joints from loosening after years of bumping into the table, and and people pushing on it to scoot back chairs.


----------



## MarkwithaK

I'm currently building a new kitchen table and I decided to use loose tenons to attach the legs and aprons.


----------



## REL

Brantley, DrDirt's picture using lag bolts is even easier than what I have been describing to you. The legs would also be easy to remove.


----------



## 12point

REL , would lag bolts provide the same amount of strength and stability as that of anchor bolts?

What is the best way to put in anchor bolts? Maybe im missing something but where do you attach on to the bolt to put it in if everthing is threaded?


----------



## REL

Brantley, I believe the lag bolts will be equal to anchor bolts.

However to install an anchor bolt which I like better: Using a drill press with a right angle jig to hold the leg in place is the easiest. You can do it with a hand held drill if necessary. I'm assuming the top of the legs are shaped as a square. You did/will recess the apron about a 1/4" in from the legs, right?

The anchor bolts have two different types of tread, one for the wood leg side and the other treaded to accept a nut. You will need to install two nuts and use a wench to screw the bolt into the wood leg.

Sorry too lazy to take pictures.


----------



## 12point

REL. You are right. Top of legs are sqiare and I do have the apron recessed off of table legs. The anchor bolts are 3" that I have. I tried putting a nit on the threaded end and it worked but I need it to go in the wood past that point or get some longer anchor bolts I guess. 3" is as big as I have found though.I


----------



## REL

Brantley, By nit you meant nut, right? You need two screws tight together to hold fast where positioned to screw into the wood corner. They do make 3 1/2 hanger bolts. By the way that's what we really mean not anchor bolts. I hope wwe are speaking about hanger bolts?


----------



## 12point

REL . Yeas I mean hanger bolts. I dont know why anchor bolts are on my mind. I did get them all in. I ended up tightening the chuck on my electric drill on them hard and driving them in with that. Workwd great. The table is really solid. Ihope my corner braces are big enough. I got them as wide as I could so where I could still get the hanger bolt through them. Im going to have to wait until next weekend before I can turn the table over and see how level it is. A buddy of mine is coming down to hunt for the weekend. This table is wayyy too heavy fofr me to flip it over mysel


----------



## 12point

I will post some pictures when I get further along


----------



## Milo

God in Heaven, whatever you do, DON'T use biscuits!

I know some of you are laughing right now, but believe me, back in my furniture repair days, I DID see it done, and the table was frick'n HUGE.

And the guy wondered why his table broke…


----------



## REL

Milo, the biscuits are used to align the apron only! Obviously, Brantley's table 4' by 7' at 1 1/2" thick is heavy. I'm sure we all understood that fact.

I used the biscuit idea out of one of the woodworking books that I own and it made assembly easy on one of the tables I built. The legs of that table are held together by a metal bracket with hanger bolts and rest on the table top. My son uses it for his 20 gallon fish tank.

Brantley, I often don't call the right thing by the right name. The only important thing is we are on the same page.


----------



## woodworkingprincipal

Check out trestle tables. Interesting option for table legs….......


----------



## Milo

REL,

The person I met ONLY used biscuits!


----------



## REL

Milo, I knew where you were coming from. I just wanted to clarify my use of biscuits for this application, and of course, I agree with you using biscuits for support on any table is not a good idea. However, they help with aligning the aprons for a perfect fit. Loose tenons also work and with better support!

Since Brantley will need to take off the legs to move his table around. Brackets with bolts was the only sensible way for him to go.


----------



## Randy_ATX

Yes I know this thread is a few years old. 

I was searching attaching legs to tabletop. I'm getting ready to build my first table: top, aprons, legs, but I want to make the legs removable in case they need to be removed for moving through a door/hall/etc..

I am leaning toward the aprons M&T into the legs, but with no glue or dowels, so that I can remove the legs. I would also add the corner brace as in post #16 above. I had read another post somewhere (not this thread) not to use both M&T and corner brackets.

My question - will what I want to do be the best way, or is there something flawed with my planning?

Thanks


----------



## JADobson

I'd be curious as to why you think you need to make your legs removable. Most table tops are 29"-30" and should fit easily down a regular sized hall or door way. Unless you are building a particularly tall table you should be fine. If you really think they need to be removable, IKEA (I know, I know, I'm sorry) has bolt on legs that are actually fairly sturdy.


----------



## Randy_ATX

James you may be right. Maybe I'm over thinking this - it is my first table.


----------



## JADobson

Don't worry about it. I'm in the middle of my first table as well. I noticed that Lee Valley also has the bolt on legs.


----------



## firefighterontheside

I don't think you'd be able to use mortise and tenon plus furniture/hanger bolts unless you make everything so that it comes apart including taking the aprons off the top. What I have done on two tables is to put a corner brace connecting the aprons and put two bolts on each leg that go thru the brace.


----------

