# The morality of buying wood



## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I've been thinking about something for a while and I was curious to see what opinion's you guys might have.

The store where I get my lumber (Crosscut Hardwoods in Portland, OR) recently put out some Gabon ebony for sale. It's small, irregularly shaped pieces. It's also $136 a board foot. Needless to say I won't be getting any.

And that got me thinking: Are there species of wood we shouldn't buy? On ethical/environmental grounds? Are there woods you simply won't buy because of sustainability concerns?

Even I could afford the ebony I'm not sure I'd buy it. Because my understanding (which could easily be flawed) is that ebony trees are in danger of being annihilated. I don't think there are any plantations for ebony either, as there are for teak.

I think I'd take the same stance for lignum vitae and maybe Indian rosewood.

So… thoughts?


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## laketrout36 (Nov 7, 2012)

One way I've limited my use of some species of wood have been to only use very small pieces for an accent and not large pieces. Actually I've gotten to the point of using predominantly local woods. Looking for not so frequent sources of wood can turn out to be very fulfilling. One friend was getting rid of some Cherry that he had cut and air dried but no longer needed.

If there was (and maybe there currently is) a company that was creating sustainable select specie regrowth plantations that might spur more interest from me. But at this point I don't have much need for rare species.

Also, has anyone else noticed the large increase in price for some exotic woods? Ten years ago I bought Cocobolo to make a shelf for awards and other display momentos. That shelf at the time cost me $70. It's approximately 18" x 36" in size. Those dimensions today with the grain pattern is hundreds of dollars more. And to me that increase no longer makes that wood an option. Just my opinion and experience.

Thanks for reading.


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

Unless you are actually cutting the tree, the wood would go into something. The tree has already been cut. However, there are some woods that should not be used for purposes other than their'natural' use. My example is rosewood. It should be used inluthurie but is too valuable as a tone wood to use in furniture. I can can also see validity to other opinions though, after all who determines what the natural use is?


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

Not only is it 'Immoral' but very very illegal to log, cut, transport, trade, purchase, use or even posses some woods. Martin [or was it Gibson] Guitar was fined heavily for the purchase, use, and possession of some woods, WITHOUT HAVE THE PROPER DOCUMENT TRAIL!

An international agreement between governments was formed in 1973, called the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species, or CITES for short. CITES has three different levels of protection for species, known as Appendices.

If you were to 'Google' CITES you would be able to find the list of protected species.

Ebony is listed as one of the species that is so protected.


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## jbald (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm no treehugger but deforestation statistics are staggering and not only bad news for the lumber business but not particularly good for the birds and bees either. "Experts estimate that we are losing 137 plant, animal and insect species every single day due to rainforest deforestation."

If this number doesn't take your breath away, consider this…20 percent of the world oxygen is produced in the Amazon Rainforest and…("In the time it takes to read this, an area of Brazil's rain forest larger than 200 football fields will have been destroyed." http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/habitats/last-of-amazon/)

Just ask any native Rapa Nui (Easter Island) inhabitant about the negative aspects of deforestation. (Don't bother though , I doubt you'll find any real indigenous native or trees either).

Now shall we talk about global fisheries?


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I have reservations about buying anything from Crosscuts in Portland (because of price). 
I substitute walnut for ebony. It looks just as nice. 
In general I try to source my lumber locally. A tree still needs to be cut down, but at least it isn't shipped across the country. 
Also, there are local sawyers that focus on trees from storm damage. The trees are already down, and will be sold for firewood if not sold for lumber. I can't stand to see white oak advertised as fire wood.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

BTW, the Martin and Gibson case was a rip off. Martin sure had all the documents, and so did Gibson.
Those companies are not stupid. And why did the feds go in with armed agents?
I really get torqued when I see developers clear cut and burn for home sites.
Exotics are just that, and it does a huge injustice to a specie when land is cleared for sugar cane.
We woodworkers can only vote with our dollars, and we must keep that in mind.
Same thing with elephant ivory. Go figure. There must be a market….............................
Whewwwww. I feel much better now that I'm gonna turn some stupid walnut that would be sold to gun stock makers. BUT WAIT!!!! Gun stocks are really cool, and I have one.
Bill


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Crosscut has the best prices in Seattle other than on craigslist. Funny that Portland is so high. Ebony is still $135/bdft here though. Can't say I have ever worked with it (and at that price ever will). If you are just using it for small accents, you can try using old Piano keys. The black keys are ebony and can be bought fairly cheaply on ebay.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I have sworn off all Mahogany and its African cousins except for places where I really need it (I just built a piece to match our Mahogany bedroom furniture). I've read about what's going on with Mahogany in South America and I've seen the deforestation in Africa first hand.

So, I've decided that I will use only domestic, local wood whenever feasible. I live in Louisville, and I have three sawmills within 50 miles, with a choice of 35 varieties. I figure I can deal with that 95% of the time.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Gibson got raided because they were vocally criticiseing the anti-business practices of the "anointed one". They had all the paper trail they were supposed to have for "sustainably harvested" rose wood. The fed acted like they were raiding a meth lab and siezed valuable lumber and all their computers, only to sit on the whole lot for over a year without pressing charges. Gibson was coerced into cutting a deal, because it was cheaper than a prolonged court case.

No different than sicking the IRS on conservative leaning non-profits.

Facism in the making…. so much for the promised transparent government…. Thank God for Edward Snowden! Now even liberal media outlets have woken up.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Heavy on the politics there, Matt.


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## BHolcombe (Sep 19, 2012)

The dramatically increasing price of Gaboon and Macassar ebony should be a detractor enough for many. How often do you see it used in production furniture or other goods?

That being said, I've moved from using exotics regularly to using them quite sparingly for the reasons mentioned above in addition to price.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

The "except for small accent pieces" is the kind of hypocritical rationale that leads to extinction. Nyuk nyuk

I say, if it's available and you can afford it and want it, if you don't take it somebody else will.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

HamS said …Unless you are actually cutting the tree, the wood would go into something. The tree has already been cut.
Clint Searl said… I say, if it's available and you can afford it and want it, if you don't take it somebody else will.

With respect, that's a fallacious argument.

By *using* the wood, even if it's already been cut and is sitting in the local shop, you create the demand, and so the next tree gets cut…. until there are none left.
You buy it from the shop, the shopkeeper sees stock levels falling, so he orders more from his supplier, who orders more from his, and … well, now you can hear the sound of another endangered tree falling, and yes, *you* are responsible for that as a *direct result* of you buying that piece of wood.
If no-one ever bought the ebony (for example), they would pretty soon stop felling the trees.
It would help if places like The Wood Database moved their "Sustainability" section to the top, rather than burying it within sections saying how wonderful it is!


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I am with Charles. Live in Arkansas and have plenty of local wood to choose from. No need to create demand for "exotic" wood that does not even help the people in those regions.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

A few months ago Shannon Rogers wrote about not apologizing for using wood- opened up a much needed debate on the subject: 
www.renaissancewoodworker.com/stop-apologizing-for-using-wood/
The most credible action I've seen has been taken by Bob Taylor (Taylor Guitars) he talks about ebony in a youtube vid:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCGvfsBoFY.
Back to buying or not buying- I would love to get a hold of old stock Cuban Mahogany, quarter sawn Brazilian Rosewood and real Madagascan Paudauk and Ebony. That's my pipe dream. I have Braz Rosewood in my older acoustic guitar and did buy small boxes of cutoffs of Pink Ivory and Snakewood back in the 70's and got Cocobolo fingerboards for $5 per rough board before it went CITES. The price has doubled to tripled for those same pieces. CITES is just the guideline and the Lacey Act is really the teeth in this country.Under the Lacey Act you have to prove when and where every part of say a guitar came from. Right down to the bone saddles and Mother of Pearl inlay. That's where the Elliot Ness actions were allowed in the Gibson raids and why Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top won't be touring with his $5,000,000 Les Paul anytime soon: www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/cross-the-border-lose-your-bentley-the-lacey-act-applies-to-automobiles-too.
The problem isn't one of supply and demand in the South American rain forests -a lot of slash and burn is happening for subsistence farming by locals. It's just cheaper and faster to burn Rosewood stumps than to get the necessary papers to allow harvest of a few of them . Rosewood was cut about 4 to 6 feet up to avoid that wild compression wood at the ground level. That is what you're seeing these days and is totally legal. Most of the new farmland is used for supplying huge multinational companies with products (ever heard of MacDonald's?).I've read that certain countries are buying up huge quantities of tropicals because they know how short the supply will get.(Won't name countries because I haven't seen any articles with any veracity)
The term "exotic" is such a subjective thing. Osage Orange, Fiddle-back Hard Maple, Hornbeam, Sassafras, Koa and Mesquite are some of what I think of as exotics in my part of the world. What I used to burn as firewood in Humboldt Co. i.e. Redwood, Bay Myrtle, Madrone and Manzanita may be considered exotic to someone on the East Coast.
BTW- I think it's more moral to buy than to steal wood.(Trying to keep on topic, y'all!)


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Being born and raised Catholic, I can safely say there is nothing immoral about buying wood.

Thinking about anything that would cause me to get wood, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Shannon Rogers made some interesting points. If he's right that buying African Mahogany, let's say, promotes sustainability, then I'm all for it. I'm going to want more than just this one blog post to convince me of that. But I'm open. And I love the look of Mahogany.

However, since I started down this path, I have become increasingly pleased with the idea of using wood from my area. And since I have such a great supply, I'm sticking with that whenever possible. And since it I have better selection of varieties and the cost is lower, it's a win-win-win. Here's a list of species and costs from my closest sawmill: http://bonesteelmillandmolding.com/pb/wp_192dac55/wp_192dac55.html


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Many of the top " stand alone " luthiers have built guitars from " inferior " woods that sound and play as well as a guitar built from proper tone wood. These don't go into production because they are hard to sell. The point being, how the wood is manipulated is more important than the wood. The same can apply to furniture, design and workmanship should transcend the material.


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## bannerpond1 (Mar 15, 2013)

A couple of thoughts:

1. Your actions alone will have no effect whatsoever on the hardwood forests being deforested, any more than our emission controls stop the pollution from India, Brazil, and China. As a matter of ethics, I would not buy the rosewood or the ebony.

2. As a matter of wise spending, I would not pay such outrageous prices for those woods. Unless you have a client who demands it for his own ego, using exotic woods seems frivolous. I've been using spalted hickory and maple and cherry crotch from my own property. I have it milled locally, so I support the sawyer and get the wood sawn exactly the way I want it. That includes quartersawing. I recently bartered for three BIG sycamore logs and had them QS. It resembles lacewood when you do that.

My belief is that there is plenty of wood to be had without spending your dollars on exotic woods. Here's a photo of the QS cherry which was dying on my property:

P.S. Anyone who says, "Thank God for Edward Snowden" is not the patriot he thinks himself to be. It does not require a traitor to right a wrong.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

CharlesA- There's a lot of "genuine" Mahogany (Macrophylla sp) grown on plantations in Fiji,Bangladesh, Indonesia and India. The quality is not even close to the original Cuban that went extinct (for commercial logging) in the late 1800's. I have a plank of Honduran that was I was given and it probably was bought in the 1960's. It is a beautiful plank- straight grained and though seasonally it sat in a barrel that had 3 inches of water, it dried with no twist or checks- the most stable wood I've ever seen. The Mahogany (genuine) these days from the plantations seems a pale version of the Honduran. Not as tight and coarser than the Honduran. Needs more filling and is stringier. That said, I agree about needing more than one blog- he did start a ruckus with his comments, though. But the Bob Taylor video was the eye opener for me. Taylor's right when he said that guitarists need to get used to the look of something other than jet black Ebony. His point is if you go exotic, go fair wage. We do it with fair trade coffee, fruit and other products. It'll just cost more. A company that's doing it right is "Forgotten Woods, LLC" Bottom line is that it's all wood, whether local or imported. 
And Texcaster- you're absolutely right. The manipulation of name seems important. Luthiers had trouble convincing the public that Khaya or Sapele sounds great as a guitar back- until they called it "African Mahogany". Then they took off.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

"P.S. Anyone who says, "Thank God for Edward Snowden" is not the patriot he thinks himself to be. It does not require a traitor to right a wrong." 
He did the right thing IMHO. I grew up in a police state and my brother was tortured for possessing a wrong book. I have nothing to hide some say; but what if later on you have a book to hide, or went on the wrong website, or?


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

aloha, by manipulation, I meant the skill involved to make ordinary timber perform like " master grade ". That's why they do it, to showcase their skill, usually just a one off. Stradivarius sometimes had to use timber that wouldn't even get a look in these days. But yes a name change can work wonders with marketing.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Beautiful wood Dale….

I personally selectively logged and milled the lumber for my efficiently designed timber frame home off of the property, and the lot remains wooded 20 years later. So I personally won't pay any attention to someone looking down their nose at me buying 0.25 BF of Ebony to accent an A&C coffee table, while they park their SUV in the three car garage of their stick framed McMansion in subdivision that was clear cut to speed up construction.

Old fashion Yankee values of being a good steward of God's green earth and not being wasteful are the real solution. While trendy "green" ethics espoused by yuppies yapping on their latest cell phone, made from cadmium strip mined in Angola, are soooo hypercritical.

As for my previous post, yeah I did drift into hyper-political mode…. But the Gibson incident was IMO, a huge abuse of power and deliberate denial of due process, so typical of our new "Patriot Act" nanny state. Many, many incidents of the DEP and ATF doing likewise…. Make raid, seize assets, freeze bank accounts, and then never press charges… No charges, no trial, no trial, no due process.

As for the Patriot comment… I'll compare my record of 8.5 years of honorable military service to any arm chair patriots out there.

Just remember, one man's patriot is another man's traitor…. As can be exemplified by this short list of men who were either kicked out of power, had a bounty put on their head or both….

Martin Luther
Wyliam Tyndale
John Adams
George Washington
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill
Etc…


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Just an anecdote that is more on topic.

I have a friend who gave up his construction biz due to back problems and took up volunteer development work. He was supervising the construction of an orphanage and medical clinic in Belize, where he used donated dollars from the US to hire local labor (which bolsters the local economy). The crew that did the concrete work used rough sawn 2×12x20' planks of mahogany to form the footings :^0

As noted earlier, much clear cutting in South America is by subsistence farmers. But further elaboration is needed here. In some cases these people, through need, greed or ignorance have depleted the land through poor farming practices, so they have to cut clear new fields. But often, they are driven off their land by the hired thugs of the local cattle bosses. The South American beef industry has been booming for decades now. So I would submit for consideration that you might damage the rain Forrest more by eating your next hamburger, than by buying that new guitar.

None of these global issues are as simple as they seem.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Texcaster, you're so right. BTW- do you fiddle or play violin? Or both? Your avatar looks like a fiddler!

Matt, that's the realities of the Lacey Act. Probably didn't help that Gibson sold some of the guitars while the investigation was going on. Also, rainforest soil is thin and not fertile, so slash and burn adds elements to the soil for crops but is used up in two years, so a new field is started. I think the cattle industry is probably 100x more responsible for the loss of the rain forests than woodworkers. Add corrupt local and national officials…..Sorry, gotta get off my soapbox-it's dinner time!


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

I really don't have anything to add to this topic, but I was glad to read the thread


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I'm glad to see this hasn't degenerated into LJs sniping at each other.

The point about hardwood forest being clear cut for agriculture is a good one. That doesn't have anything to do with the woodworker but it destroys a lot of forest. And alohafromberkeley is right about rain forest soil. Even in the medium term turning rain forest into agricultural land doesn't pan out. But if you're starving to death in an impoverished area…

I do think that demand over here influences logging in the tropics. At least for some species.

I'd like to see plantations for woods like ebony and lignum vitae. Better plantation wood than no wood at all.

I can see, however, why someone wouldn't want to start a plantation for ebony or lignum vitae. I believe the trees take 60 plus years to reach any kind of harvestable size. And until you cut and milled that first plantation tree you wouldn't know what kind of quality of wood (and therefore selling price) you would be getting. Not getting a return on your investment for 60 years is going to be a difficult business model.

What I would like to see is some of the environmental non-profits buy up acres in the tropics and plant endangered trees. They might end up selling some of the wood in 60 years or they might not. But at least it would be preserved. And the non-profits would (presumably) not be under the same pressures a business would be.

But what about veneer? Veneer can make a log go a lot farther than using solid wood, yes?

I think people got the idea but just in case: I'm not passing judgment on anyone. I've got my opinion but it's just that: my opinion. I'm not interested in shoving my ideas down anyone else's throat.


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## GJP60 (Jan 12, 2010)

Living in New England I try to use local hardwoods. I buy much of my lumber from a flooring mill in SW Massachusetts. As a turner I get lots of wood that homeowners are trying to unload. I also try to use recycled lumber, nut removing nails is a tough job. I realize rain forests are being cut for farms and homes, not just for the wood, but I don't want to contribute to the problem. When I lived in Seattle and hiked on the Olympic Peninsula I was saddened by the clear cut mountainsides. 
Cheers 
Glen


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks for starting an important topic,Purrmaster, I would've been sorely disappointed if it did get ugly. Ebony and Lignum takes over a hundred years to get to harvestable size. Mahogany grows quickly, but like any forest managed for quick growth harvest, the end product isn't high quality. In Hawai'i, people are trying to replant Acacia Koa for cutting in 60 years.Big problem is cows love Koa shoots. They figured out that no cows = Koa trees. There are movements to replant native species. In Africa, specifically, The African Blackwood Conservation Project is bring back hope that the Mpingo (aka Blackwood) will be brought back by education and conservation. It's been growing (no pun intended) since it's inception in 1996. Bob Taylor in his video talks about how they have to cut down 20 trees to get two that are black enough to sell, the other 18 are left on the ground. His company now buys every tree and pays the workers the same amount for every tree.

There are non profits and Non GMO for profits that are in just about every country in the world. Some have a greater success rate than others. There is a Cocobolo plantation in Mexico. I've mention Hawai'i and Africa. It is an idea that needs everyone's support and help. I think it was Goby Walnut that would send Walnut seedlings to you just for the asking. Johnny Walnut Seed!

Veneer is the best idea for affordable exotics and domestics.Veneer really got a bad reputation in the 50's by being used on cheap furniture.Veneer can make that special wood go farther, but the thing is that veneer logs are few and far between-I think I remember someone saying a good day is finding one veneer quality log in 50 or so. But, I love veneer and have spent more $ on it than on solid wood. You can get a bigger variety of awesome figures on a smaller budget.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Yes, you're right, ebony and lignum vitae do take even longer than 60 years. It's going to be hard to get someone to start a plantation that will probably not pay off until they are dead. Maybe a non-profit co-op could start such a plantation. The primary purpose of said plantation would be preservation. Sales in a century would just be a bonus.

I've heard the same about ebony. They chop down all the ebony trees to find one that has the color and figure wanted. I can't help but think that's a terrible shame and must be driven, at least in part, by Western demand.

Wasn't teak nearly wiped out before teak plantations came about? What's odd to me is that even with the plantations teak is hideously expensive. Not as bad as ebony, but pretty steep.

I wonder what the conservation status of purpleheart is. It seems to be reasonably priced (for an exotic import) and widely available. I would have thought the unique coloration would have led to over harvesting of purpleheart.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Teak takes along time to harvest in the wild. Here's why- A tree is selected and then the bark is peeled off about four feet high at a width of 2 or 3 feet wide around the whole tree. The tree is then left to die. In two or three years the loggers come back and if the tree has lost enough moisture then is cut. It may be cut and left in on the ground for another year or so (nothings gonna eat it and it won't rot). At the point that it's determined to have lost enough moisture it's then cut into logs. This is where elephants come in to play. They drag the logs to the nearest river and there men put bolts in the log and chains are attached to keep them together. If the teak is too wet it will sink to the bottom and be lost. I wonder how many people lost their lives in this sort of operation. I haven't seen much plantation teak yet, but I think prices should dip if the plantings were successful. As to Purpleheart, I don't think it's even on CITES schedule 3 as yet. All the Dalbergias i.e. Brazilian RW, Kingwood, Cocobolo, Tulipwood, Mpingo (African Blackwood) are on the list. The thing about CITES is that individual countries have to ask for formal protection. Sometimes as in the case of Madagascar, the country is looted of their forests and when they can't squeeze another buck then they ask for protection. Not all governments are corrupt- unfortunately I can't say the same about government officials. If you're interested, CITES has a website and they list all fauna and flora under protection (just google "CITES").


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## CalgaryGeoff (Aug 10, 2011)

Wow, ebony is like $225 a bf here in Calgary at the Windsor plywood store. Tempting to change the price sticker with ash and find the newest/greenest associate to ring me through. My hobby of wood working and meager quantity of wood does not impact the planet at all. So I will purchase wood species I want, if possible and available, as long as it's being sold legally and above board. I'm certainly not going to purchase or participate in any illegal wood trafficking or encourage anyone to do so.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

aloha, I'm a fiddler ( pretty average but working on it ) and I like N. American fiddle music. There are almost more styles than I can count. The fiddle was a folk instrument before it became a classical violin. The fiddle is for toe tapping and dance while the violin is performance music. Pretty big divide.


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

I was at Portland Crosscut Hardwoods the other day and noticed they ruined an entire stack of nice Mahogany, their giant ceiling warehouse heater was blasting right on it and it was all warped 2-3 inches.

That said a couple thoughts…

Do gooders have killed untold thousands of acres of trees in the US by running around stamping out every fire nature starts. Used to be mother nature would start a fire on a regular basis and burn off the dry forest floor material, the burns were regular enough that they were low intensity and it didn't hurt the trees. This also kept the bugs in check. Now because we run around stamping out all the fires this let so much dry material build up that when it does burn it burns so hot it kills the trees.

I have no issue consuming trees in woodworking. Obviously I would not use a protected species but as someone who owns acreage trust me plants and trees are very aggressive species. Absent humans it wouldn't take long for the earth to be overgrown.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm on the same page with Willie (pintodeluxe) only I use Wenge in the place of ebony when it comes to contrast and most all of my projects are from local dead trees that I cut via chainsaw or find on curb side waiting for landfill.

I find this thread very rewarding with a great deal of information that I never knew anything about, a great topic, thanks for posting Purrmaster.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Oh man, I think I would have cried to see that that stack of mahogany. I go to Crosscut because it's the only "retail" lumber location I can find. I went to Moxon once. I got lucky because it was slow and one of the guys showed me around and picked out some choice boards for me. A really nice board of jarrah among them. The problem is that the Moxon guys really only sell pallets of wood. And since everything is on pallets getting just a couple of boards would be difficult. And probably annoy the staff.

But I digress.

I agree that one woodworker using a little ebony isn't going to be a problem. But multiply that by thousands of woodworkers using a little ebony and you've got a problem.

I read, on the Wood Database I think, that most of the teak available currently *is* plantation teak. But the difficultly of getting the teak to market you described would certainly explain the high cost.

Why do they kill the tree and then leave it to dry? Wouldn't it be faster and easier to kiln dry the teak? Or does kiln drying screw it up somehow? I know that some woods are rarely kiln dried because it leads to excessive warping and checking.

Thanks for the info folks. I know a lot more now, which is great.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

A couple of notes from my grip to Ghana this summer. You know what they use for telephone/utility poles in Ghana? Teak. They grow it in groves/plantations, and plant the trees fairly close to each other. The teak grows straight up with minimal branches. They cut the tree down, cut off the branches, and you have a telephone pole that is rot/insect resistant. Looks like this:









I also have a nice piece of ebony I picked up. I was at the craft market and watched this young man carving curios with a chisel and a big black mallet. I wasn't so interested in his carvings. I asked if he'd make me a mallet. Works great:


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Purrmaster, I was describing the traditional wild harvest of Teak in India, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and Burma (Myanmar). It sinks until the sap dries out so that's where the lag time comes in . There is probably a technology shift to on-site kilns, but I have a feeling that the forests are still rural and no doubt that elephants are still used the way we use tractors. I have never seen any old growth sticks of Teak that warped- that's why it's called "God's gift to boat builders". Actually lost a 1×1 piece of teak in my garden- found it 4 years later in my rose bed, and with a good rinsing and brushing it looks good as new. I agree that most teak is probably plantation grown. A lot of the Teak I see on a lot of wood sites come from salvage operations because the stuff never rots. Google "salvaged Teak" - a lot of sites come up. A good visual site is Cook Woods in Oregon (not only for Teak but has decent info and pics of many exotics). They claim to source stump wood, which has to be from old growth forests.The same holds true for Brazilian Rosewood. There was a time when people wouldn't touch stumps because of the wildly irregular grain and some folks used to call it the "devilwood" and claimed they saw images of demons in some of the lumber.
Bill, love fiddle music (not a classical guy), used to play a lot of guitar in the Norcal Woods with people named Banjo John, Fiddler Tim, Fiddler Carole, Guitar Dave( so as to not confuse them with Crazy Dave or Bananas John). 
Charles, do you know what kind of footing they use in Ghana? Or do they just dig a big hole? The mallet looks like a grain pounder (reminds me of poi pounders).


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## BustedClock (Jun 30, 2011)

For some reason, saw-mills are thin on the ground in the Denver area. So are hardwoods. I like using local woods, but pretty much all the hardwoods are urban, and in relatively short supply, for relatively high prices. AS a consequence, my definition of local hardwood has expanded to, "grown in the USA." Nevertheless, transportation is still a significant cost factor.

As for commercial value leading to preservation, I think that's probably true in a general macro-economics sense, but depends a great deal on the cost of "farming" the relevant item. Elephants reproduce and grow slowly, eat a LOT while they grow, and there's no real market for anything other than the ivory. So, ivory is extremely valuable (and illegal), and that value leads to poaching. A lot of hardwoods present the same sorts of problems. They require a great deal of land, and take a long time to grow-though propagation is relatively quick and abundant. Nevertheless, the time to maturity leads to forced-growth practices, in turn leading to poor quality. Species like ebony suffer from the additional problem that most of the tree has little value. Ebony comes from the old heartwood; most of the tree goes to waste.

So, while some exotic species are very valuable, the incentives aren't there to create sustainable alternate sources.

More or less.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Much of the deforestation of the tropical rainforest is for agricultural purposes, those trees can either be sold and used if there is a market or burned place. Burning immediately releases carbon into the atmosphere, whereas if that wood is made into useful objects, that carbon can be stored for many more years. That is not say that illegal poaching doesn't take place on especially valuable trees, however if you buy your wood from reputable source you will be doing more good than harm. The hope is that eventually the market will catch up to the supply so that these forests can generate more revenue as sustainably managed forests rather than cattle farms.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I have a sack of piano Ivory that I can't use because of cites. If I came to the US with Ivory or Pearl inlay in an instrument, without papers, I could forfeit my instrument. For people like Billy Gibbons, an instrument passport is now available. http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/ivory-instruments-get-passports-20130314-2g1nj.html

Besides the cites laws, I'm not using piano Ivory because I think I will be judged very harshly in the not to distant future if I do. Anyone can say " it's Piano Ivory. "


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Bondo, I have friends that bought property on the Olympic Peninsula and before they could move in someone had poached the Big Leaf Maple trees on the roadside. Poaching trees is really not limited to third world countries. Hawai'i also has a huge poaching problem with Koa, Kamani and Monkeypods being filched. I've also heard first hand stories of shots being fired over Redwood burls in NorCal.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Not being able to use old ebony piano keys seems a little extreme. I would have no problem buying recycled/reclaimed ebony. In fact I would think that reclaimed exotic wood would be an ecological boon. It would displace some of the freshly harvested ebony.

This shows my naiveté but I'm surprised one could get away with poaching Koa in Hawaii, since it's within the United States. I would think there were would be federal/state controls on its sale.

Since relations with Burma and the rest of the world seem to be thawing I wonder if we'll see more wood from Burma become available. I believe the US had economic sanctions on Burma that probably limited the lumber trade. I'm pretty sure that gem stones from Burma have been embargoed for quite some time.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for someone with lots of money and patience to start some plantations in Burma.

I can't help but think that in many cases plantations are the answer. I know plantation lumber isn't as good as old growth lumber. But I think if you don't make preserving trees economically viable then it won't happen.

Look at buffalo in the US. Buffalo were nearly wiped out by hunting. Now we have buffalo ranches. Is it a shame most of the wild buffalo are gone? Yes, but if it wasn't for the ranches there might not be any buffalo at all. At least we can access buffalo meat and the species is still around.

Maybe Bill Gates should buy a small tropical country and just plant trees everywhere.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Purrmaster, piano IVORY.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I guess I'll be the contrarian and say that I really don't have any moral objections. I'm not out scouring the internet for Brazilian Rosewood, but I really enjoy working with imported and exotic woods. I probably have 25 to 30 species in my shop right now and only 3 are domestic maple, cherry, black walnut - actually Koa is technically domestic, right? That includes genuine lignum vitae and Indian Rosewood.

Yes it's true that demand dictates supply and as long as someone is buying it, others will look to supply it.

I wonder why the topic of morality never comes up when discussing tool purchases? Almost everything made now comes form China. Forget the whole "they took our jobs" argument for a moment. Realize your tools are made by horribly underpaid and overworked people in deplorable conditions. Hell, even the clothes on your back are made with slave labor - probably made by one of the 1100 people that got killed when the condemned factory they were forced to show up to work in or have a months pay withheld collapsed.

I just find it funny that we are concerned with the extinction of a plant species but immune to the human condition. The answer no one wants to hear is it is easy *not* to pay $100.00+/bf for wood you don't need, but not so easy to insist reform and fare wages for almost everything because prices would rise drastically - and that has a real impact.

Anyway time go get off my soap box and have a bowl of chocolate ice cream. Chocolate by the way is a major source of slave labor and human trafficking.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

Yeah, Hawai'i is part of the US and has really tight limits and hard to get licenses for legit Koa harvest. The problem is that the price is so high that you can always sell "backdoor" to craftspeople who won't ask questions. People who've traveled in Hawai'i know there's a lot of open land once you leave the tourist beaches, easy to poach with a chain saw and four wheel drive. If you're old enough, you may remember the sugar panic of 1974 when sugar prices skyrocketed and supplies plummeted. I was at a window table at a restaurant when a car parked in front of the place. Out jumped a guy who hotfooted it down the alley 3 times, each time hefting a 50lb. sack of sugar. I saw him with a fistful of cash and a big grin. Can't tell me the owner didn't know that it was stolen goods. Same with Koa, I don't think there is DNA analysis yet to answer:Where does it come from? Is it legal? And can you prove it? That sorta comes full circle to what lumberjoe touched on- there are no jobs and if you know where there's a fallen tree in the forest up the road, you can have a thousand bucks for a night's work. Locals look the other way everywhere there's subsistence poaching. That doesn't make it legal or moral, only understandable. But, going further afield, most of our computers, cell phones, ipods and gadgets that add enjoyment to our lives come from places where there really is no alternative. I'm not being an apologist, but I think it maybe preferable to starving. People in this country also have to deal with real hunger on a day to day basis. (Thanks for the loan of the soapbox, joe!)


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

once a tree is felled it can not be put back in the ground and brought to life, look up inspiration oak.. local story, guy didn't want to have his yard turned into a park, so he girdled the tree. Truth be told, it was not the biggest live oak…. Same for cows, once they've been to the butcher, you can't put it back into the pasture. It is more of a crime to let these things go to wast, than it is to make use of them. Just down the road, someone felled a whole pecan orchard to, beautiful wood. It will probably be left to rot, halled to the dump, or burned, truelly sad.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

charles that is the way the plant long leaf yellow pine (southern yellow pine) in these parts, I much prefer the loblolly or short leaf (heart pine), which takes forever to grow, and typically when I get it, I have had to pull a lot of nails out of it, but it's far less comon and not really grown on vast tracts of land stretching for miles.


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## Loco (Aug 11, 2013)

I just walk through MY forests and harvest as needed. I get the permits required.The fines are enormous if you don't. The survey, permits and tagging are free. All logs at all sawmills must have documents.Even if a storm or earthquake takes it down , MINAE must come and look and issue the paper work so you can process it.No biggie.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

The Aboriginal perspective is .. the land doesn't belong to us, we belong to the land.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I hope governments would shut down any logging of trees that could cause the extinction of a species. That being said, money has a way of winning most battles.

I buy very little wood. Most of what I cut is standing dead. If I do take a live tree, it's because the owner was taking it down anyway.

The more expensive the wood, the less likely I would buy it.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

I think this is a very very misunderstood subject.

Trees are a renewable resource. By buying lumber you bring value to forests. When lands with forests have value they are preserved as forests (by replanting, etc). Deforestation occurs when the value of alternative uses exceeds the value of the lumber, pulp etc that can be extracted from trees over the life cycle.

In fact, there is no overall deforestation in North America over recent decades; in fact the amount of forest land has increased a little. Worldwide the total deforestation rate is very low.

Loss of habitat for animals arises from permanent deforestation (loss of forest lands), not the logging / replanting cycle. There is actually far far more biodiversity in a 5 year old clear cut then there is in a mature forest.

So in the most general terms, buying and using a renewable resource such as wood, is a very good thing for forests and the environment (as its uses displace the alternatives (e.g. plastics) which are mostly from non-renewables.

The same argument can hold true for exotic woods in developing countries, but in some cases local conditions give rise to other economic / moral issues regarding trade in those specific woods.

So from an environmental viewpoint you should feel very good about your woodworking and purchases of wood.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Excellent points made.

You are absolutely right about purchasing manufactured goods. And that's not something I think about when I buy tools. Perhaps I should start doing so. Conditions in overseas factory are in far too many cases slave labor. And that is a moral crime.

I'd like to throw out the "I don't have any choice" argument about buying goods made in China and thereabouts. But I'm not sure I can defend that stance with facts. There are a lot of goods that simply are not produced in places with labor standards. But there are often substitutes. Even for power tools.

But it *is* interesting that when it comes to China most Americans (that I've talked to anyway) are mostly angry about jobs being sent overseas, rather than feeling sympathetic for the overseas slave labor. Perhaps because we feel we are in competition with them?

And you're right about people in third world countries. They don't have the luxury of worrying about over harvesting. They have to bring in some money or they'll starve. Which is why my concerns usually concentrate on demand as the problem.

I'll bare one of my pet peeves here as an example: Ivory (no, not your piano keys sir). Elephant populations are already way down. But there's been a sharp increase in elephant poaching. And why? As the wealth of China has grown so has the market for luxury goods there. And there's a serious demand for ivory. If Chinese demand dried up there would be less elephant killing. I would never, no what the circumstances, buy ivory (unless I was absolutely sure it was very old, reclaimed ivory). I've asked other people that and no one I know would buy ivory no matter what the price.

Trees are a renewable resource; if you let them renew themselves. But over harvesting can annihilate a species. Especially for trees like ebony where they take a century to grow. Same kind of thing with whales. You can kill whales faster than they can replace the losses. Whereas I don't think most people worry too much about wiping ants off the face of the Earth.

I have also seen news reports that say forests are bouncing back nicely in the US. From what I read this was largely due to improved farming. An acre of farmland has much better yields than it did 50 years ago. So some farmland that was formerly being cultivated has now been left for the forests to take back. I fear, however, that is not happening in places like South America and Africa. I have few worries when buying domestic timber.

My concern for trees like ebony/lignum vitae/etc isn't so much that I'm concerned about biodiversity or the loss of a species. What concerns me is that in 100 years there may be no ebony trees left. Future generations will never have the chance to get ebony, no matter the price, because it's gone.

My understanding is that Cuban mahogany was badly over harvested. To the point where it almost doesn't exist anymore. If my grandparents generation had been more careful about not over logging Cuban mahogany I might be able to get some to work with today. Perhaps even a reasonable price.

I don't think I'll ever get to work with ebony in my lifetime. Because of the cost But I'd like my little cousins to be able to, someday.

It's funny…. since I started woodworking, whenever I look at a tree now I think: "Potential lumber." A tree is no longer a plant, it's a source of boards.

Geez, I do carry on, don't I?


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Maniac Matt -

Gibson got raided because they were vocally criticiseing the anti-business practices of the "anointed one". No different than sicking the IRS on conservative leaning non-profits. Facism in the making….

I hate this kind of stupid talk. Like Fascism wasn't a goal of previous conservative administrations, also. Like conservatives would do anything different if they are in power!!

Do a little research…

But Nixon appears to have targeted a wider range of "enemy" groups for tax audits, including antiwar groups (and the churches and other nonprofits that sheltered them), civil rights groups, reporters, and prominent Democrats.

Moreover, as a result of Watergate investigation (1973-4) and, especially, the disclosure of White House tapes, many of these activities became public. The tapes provided a direct line of accountability from the IRS to the Oval Office that was often missing in previous administrations.

Nixon is unambiguous: He directs aides to use the IRS to get back at political enemies. In a taped conversation on Sept. 8, 1971, Nixon tells his chief domestic policy adviser, John Ehrlichman, to direct the IRS to audit potential Democratic rivals, including Sens. Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, and Edmund Muskie of Maine.

"Are we going after their tax returns? I … you know what I mean? There's a lot of gold in them thar hills," Nixon said.

And this…

In a throwback to the Nixon era, the Bush administration appears to have targeted the All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, Calif., for criticism of President Bush on the eve of the 2004 election. In a case that drew congressional attention, the IRS threatened to revoke the church's tax-exempt status after the Rev. George Regas, the rector at the time, told the congregation that Jesus would have called the Bush doctrine of preemptive war "a failed doctrine."

The Bush IRS also went after the NAACP in 2004, after then-chairman Julian Bond criticized Mr. Bush for being the first president to fail to address the group's annual convention and called for his ouster. In its audit notice, the IRA said those statements constituted "improper political activity" for a group claiming nonprofit status. In a rare move, the NAACP went public with its complaints that the audit was politically motivated. After a two-year battle, the IRS dropped its case, and the NAACP kept its status.

But that is all OK, isn't it? IIOKIYAR!!

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Matthew 7:3


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

EEngineer,
You are absolutely correct! +1,000,000,000,000,000…........


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## JohnnyStrawberry (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm glad I can't contribute to the politics part of the thread…
Great thread with excellent points made.
I was really tempted at the lumber yard… But I strongly tend towards local wood. Those species should satisfy all I need.
Why not try steaming some wood? (Ask your sawmill.)
This way opens up a whole new world of pretty lumber.
It also makes wood more stable.
For example steamed black locust is actually pretty much comparable to mahogany. Black locust is very sustainable, too.
Willow gets reddish, ash gets darker too, and so forth and so on.
If some of you are from a sawmill you can experiment with it. Walnut is often steamed in the US so the infrastructure is given.


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## Furnitude (Oct 18, 2008)

My simplistic take on the topic is that I only use domestic wood, and of that, I use as much locally sourced stuff as I can. My brother had to have a large maple cut down a few years ago (threatening his house). With my help, he had it cut into boards and stacked in a barn. It's beautiful stuff and will take me years to go through. The things I make with it have special meaning to the people I make things for. Anyway, I think domestic hardwoods offer an incredible palette. Mesquite is quite dense and beautiful. The figure range in maple alone is more than enough to stretch my creativity. I just don't see a need to use ebony, rosewood, mahogany, etc.


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## Thalweg (Jan 27, 2009)

I have no problem with domestic lumber. The forests in North America are largely well managed. Obviously there are isolated problems in some places, but they are generally localized issues that can and should be managed locally. However, some of the foreign exotics cause me some concern. As a hydrologist and erosion control specialist I see issues that haven't really been addressed in this thread. If you look downstream of the areas of the Amazon rain forest in South America that have been deforested you will see massive amounts of sediment in the rivers. This is seen as highly turbid water and sand bars. It is directly attributable to the deforestation because the same conditions aren't present upstream of the areas. These characteristics can be seen in Google Earth. As previously discussed, the tropical soils are very fragile. The topsoil is typically shallow, and once removed can take hundreds or thousands of years to regenerate. The subsoil is typically infertile and little will grow on it. It is primarily the fertile topsoil that we see in the rivers.

I understand that not all of the deforestation is a result of timber harvest. It actually would be better if it was because when logging, the slash and debris is usually left on the surface. This provides some protection to the soil. The erosion is usually much worse on areas that have been burnt. I also understand that many of the people doing the deforestation are just trying to make a living. But making a living today without proper forest management will make it harder to make a living down the road. I know that not all of the exotic lumber is coming from these areas, but I don't know which ones are or aren't. So I personally try to avoid working with wood that I don't know the source of.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

+1!!!!- EEngineer


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## 7Footer (Jan 24, 2013)

Gawd, here we go with the politics again. I'm not even going to give an opinion on this.

Purrmaster - Check out Hardwood industries, they have fair prices and they are a local company, their main location is in Sherwood and they have a decent selection (probably not as much in stock as Crosscut) of both local wood and exotics, and they always have some specials going. Great company and nice people to work with. Towards the back of the building is the will call area and where all the stock is, and anyone can buy.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Have you ever looked at Google Earth?

There are a *lot* of trees on this planet!!!

Other than simply removing them to use the land for something else, or using them for fuel, it would be nearly impossible for the all the people on earth to use up all the trees.

In the part of the world I live in, any place that is not regularly mowed grows trees.

I don't see anything remotely immoral about using any piece of wood to make something of lasting value. However, we should all comply with whatever law is in force in our particular jurisdiction.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Being renewable and being renewed are not the same. I get the feeling that some folks are looking for a justification not to think about real world concerns or maybe they think it won't be a problem until after they're dead and so it's not their problem.

it would be nearly impossible for the all the people on earth to use up all the trees.

We don't have to use all the trees to do serious ecological damage. And really the point of this discussion is about using up certain species of trees so they are no longer available; practically that has already happened.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

While I do not know the motivations behind the Gibson raid I do think it is complete horse crap. When I first read about it a year or so ago it was my understanding that if that exact same wood was turned into finished fret boards in India then it would not have been illegal. It was absolutely about India not getting enough of a cut of the money and had nothing to do with preservation.

Some of the international treaties we have entered in are absolutely crazy. If you go overseas with a laptop and you are suspected of having pirated music on it then it can be confiscated unless you have proof on you that you paid for said music.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Went back and found the original charges, I was incorrect about India, not sure where I got India from. Madagascar has a law about exporting unfinished ebony and this is what made the ebony illegal. The point being that the Lacey act is only applicable in the US if a foreign law has been broken, meaning Gibson was being charged with not complying with Madagascar law.

It should be noted that this was the very first time the Lacey act was used to charge any entity with anything since it was expanded to include plants.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*"...It should be noted that this was the very first time the Lacey act was used to charge any entity with anything since it was expanded to include plants…."*

HUH? And THAT (enforcing the law) makes it wrong?


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm no expert on the Gibson case, but from Patcollins' description, it sounds to me like they were clearly guilty. How it all played out may be a different matter. The. US certainly counts on other countries to respect our import/export and attendant laws.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I avoid buying any wood not harvested in N. America. I am skeptical of the "ethical" and "sustainable" claims of a lot of the wood harvested overseas and I just can't justify using it for a hobby. Just because it is legal to buy certain woods doesn't mean it is right.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

I should amplify that I'm not very concerned about domestic lumber. I don't think red oak is going to be wiped out anytime soon. I suppose an exception would be Koa. I'd love to get my hands on some but I'm willing to forego it in order to give the species some breathing room.

I think it's great that so many people are using local wood. You keep your money in your local community and there's more transparency about where the wood comes from.

It's great to hear Thalweg's perspective and expertise. I'm aware that clearing away local vegetation can cause serious erosion issues but I never even considered the impact it would have in a slash and burn context. It makes perfect sense. The water becomes more turbid and polluted. The fish in the rivers/lakes/streams/etc may die off as a result. Which is probably an important source of food for the locals. I suppose the effect would be similar to what happened in the Dustbowl (the prairie grasses were plowed under for crops, erosion ensued, and so on).

I'm not worried that humanity is going to cut down all the trees. Just cut down all the trees of certain species. Thus our descendants never get to work with it.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I am not entirely why we have a law that says that other countries laws must be enforced by us, even if the other country doesn't enforce it in their own country.

When members of the current cabinet (Tim Geithner) break our own laws because they don't know them how can we be expected to know the laws of other countries?

When governments come across huge quantities of poached ivory why do they burn it? To me it would make more sense to for them to sell it and use the proceeds to protect elephants. It might even drive the demand for it far enough down to make it not worth poaching elephants.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

Over the past year it's getting more difficult and expensive to obtain quality Birdseye Maple, at least from where I'm living.

Birdseye being a domestic product and not having seen anyone mention it as endangered, I wonder if it is more plentiful in eastern U.S?

If it is I might rent a Uhaul and come out that way. LOL

DanP


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Ocelot, very true of our fair state, tons of trees everywhere. I know you guys don't have the 80 ft tall yellow pines up there, but I always know I'm close to home when I start seeing them.

As for the politics, as long as you believe only one party is guilty of things, you will miss what the other party is doing. Democrats tell you to look at republicans, and vice versa, but then I can't ever remember Republicans using the IRS, or NSA against any party that did not hold to their views, even the loony ones.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Are more trees in the world than leaves on any one tree?*

Yes, but at least two trees have the same number of leaves and no tree can have zero leaves!

What does this have to do with politics … "absolutely nuthin" ... what does this have to do with the morality of buying species that are not maintained or this being driven to obsolesence … nothing … it is just a logical problem and solution to the forum topic on *TREES!*


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Daniel bird'seye maple is not a species, but rather a grain figure that can be found in maple, usually in a spot where the tree has produced a very high number of small branches. Most of the things like curly maple, burled maple, are from different parts, or from diseased trees. I get a lot of figured maple, not highly figured, but figured, it can either be the softer southern maple, or hard rock, but it will show up in less figured patterns through out a tree. There is a really good part in the book "Old Furniture" by Nancy A. Smith, about the subject of figured woods, where they come from and what causes them to occur.


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## alohafromberkeley (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm outta here (oldnovice you're so right!)- sorry the flaming is just too hot for my tastes, Thanks Purrmaster for starting an intelligent and thoughtful debate….glad to see so many really important points covered. It was really a learning process and a great conversation…..Wes


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

Lets get real here,why would anyone in their right mind think they needed to invade Gibson with assault weapons and a Swat team. Did they expect return fire? This incident appears to be gross Government excess. Does anyone remember Kent State? We are protecting the forests but who is protecting OUR rights. Just had to say something.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

For some reason I suddenly feel compelled to tell the story of the biggest "environmentalist" I have ever known…

SO when I was a younger apprentice, the boss hired a new carpenter, who claimed to be a master carpenter, but we won't go there for now (spent an entire year going back and repairing or fixing his mistakes). This guy loved to talk about protecting the environment and would ask questions like why can't our life styles not endanger the environment. He even planned earth day events. But one day, after a good long while in which I had been doing shop work, I was told to go help so-n-so with something, can't even remember what now, over on the job site. Well I arrived, probably with a new stack of trim. Underneath his chop saw table was stacked all the way a massive stack of drops, of the same baseboard. Well, I notice he needs a really short piece of trim, so rather than reaching down where he had at least 20 drops that would fit the piece needed, Mr Environmentalist goes over and grabs a new 16 foor long piece of base board, and proceeds to cut the eight inch or whatever piece he needed out of it. His credibility was lost with me forever…...

Now, here's the thing. It's one thing to talk about environmentalism. But when it gets down to it, are you conserving? Throwing out only pieces that can not be re-used? Sure It's hard to keep the space, but I use plywood drops from one cabinet job to fill in pieces I need from the next to keep from cutting up more sheets for small pieces. (particularly when it doesn't matter if I"m using the same plywood), I save drops over a foot in length and 3/4 by 3/4 wide. the pieces smaller than this often make it home to my fire place. Practically no wood I use goes to the dump! Now I'm not a massive environmentalist, but I do believe in conservation fo resources, if not just for economic reasons, but the fact that something gave up it's llife, it's best not to waste it. I guess that comes from the native american view on the environment, I dunno.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

TCC, there are alot of morons like that. 20 years ago when I worked in a grocery store meat section some hippy dogooder came in putting stickers on the meat that said "Warning this package contains dead animals" while wearing leather Nike shoes.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

The facts of the cases are listed in the agreement between Gibson and the US Government which can be found on their website here:
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-Comments-on-Department-of-Justice-Settlemen.aspx

*The short version is Gibson was guilty of knowingly buying Madagascar ebony.*
-Gibson purchased Madagascar ebony from a German company known to sell illegal ebony. The German company falsified documents when shipping the ebony to the US. The German company was seized by authorities there and subsequently Gibson was raided and their ebony seized. Gibson tried to claim the ebony was legal because it is a "finished product" which is important in determining legality. Evidence was uncovered that Gibson knew fingerboards were not considered "finished product". Internal memos showed that Gibson knew the German company was selling ebony that was probably illegal.

There was a separate issue of Gibson buying illegal wood from India but apparently the laws there were not well defined and the government agreed to drop the issue until India gets things sorted out.

And to those wondering why we are enforcing other countries laws, it's called treaties. Basically we want things from them and they want things from us so countries make agreements like corporations make contracts.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Sorry EE…

You're criticism is based on the incorrect assumption that anyone who opposes Obama is 
(1.) for Bush, 
(2.) is a Republican and 
(3.) is a conservative.

I'm sad whenever I see people who obviously have working brains, accept the status quo. of the two party system, and the myth that there is really any difference between the two parties. They've all "devolved" into elitist statist who's #1 goal is to preserve the power and wealth of themselves and their buds. Fascism has made great strides in the US since Nixon's day, under both the Blues and the Reds. This is clearly evidenced by Atty. General Holder's inability to clearly state that drone strikes on American soil (i.e. govenrment assasinations without due process of law) are and will always be illegal.

For whatever reason, Gibson got hosed. If you doubt that, why weren't they charged after the raid. Nope… they were coerced into settlement after the Feds dragged their heals and obstructed all their attempts to sue for the recovery of their property.

As for the Lacey Act…. how is it going to protect Rose Wood, when it allows the importation of Rose Wood fret boards that are already fabricated into a finished components overseas, without any certification of the woods source. It will just push production off shore and kill more American jobs.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Sorry Matt, but it is my interpretation that EE was pointing out your polarized assumption that everything is the fault of the Democrats and the current President. EE, clearly indicated that both parties do as you accuse, and you DID NOT,... until now.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Gibson got hosed.

That's what happens when you break the law. Actually they got off very easy.


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## Purrmaster (Sep 1, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it impossible to tell what kind of figure you'll have on your maple until you actually run it through the sawmill?

But if we can predict what will cause figured maple it leaves one to wonder if we can try to replicate those conditions in a maple plantation (assuming there are any). Someone could make some good money raising maples that would largely produce figured grain.

I haven't been able to afford birdseye maple but I've gotten some curly maple and it does look pretty cool. Even with non-exciting grain I still like maple.

I do worry that ash will soon become unavailable because of the emerald ash borer.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Eh you can get an idea, but who wants to disease their plants to try to make them come out the way they want them to?


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

http://boohttp://books.google.com/books?id=VfuWr1KxrGYC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=birdseye+maple+ukraine&source=bl&ots=qUeMbNyeGZ&sig=4bCzG04KjT41e9_lQcWbqVz6k2s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DQeiUtKdA8bmoASOn4L4BA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=birdseye%20maple%20ukraine&f=falseks.google.com/books?id=VfuWr1KxrGYC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=birdseye+maple+ukraine&source=bl&ots=qUeMbNyeGZ&sig=4bCzG04KjT41e9_lQcWbqVz6k2s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DQeiUtKdA8bmoASOn4L4BA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=birdseye%20maple%20ukraine&f=false

There is way too much money involved not to have it being studied. And not surprisingly, little information about it in the last few years.

This could be the biggest manipulation since the Hunt Brothers cornered the silver market!

DanP


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