# Not What I Expected



## lew

Thanks for an honest review. It is refreshing.


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## richgreer

Thank you for the review. It seems like Black and Decker has a strategy for their brand names. All sorts of tools are appearing at Lowes with the Porter Cable brand. These are tools that Porter Cable did not use to make. It is as if Porter Cable is their brand for sales at stores like Lowes and, from what I have seen lately, they are not very high quality tools.

The Delta brand has essentially disappeared from Lowes. Is the Delta brand going to serve another segment of the market? Probably.

The Black and Decker brand is not used much at all (that I can see). They also have a brand called "Firestorm" that they are using for some real low cost items.

Hard to keep up.


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## srdesign

Thanks for the review it is sad to see a brand such as porter cable going down the tubes I use to be in the carpentery buisness and they were the for runners of the buisness and one of the best.


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## Chip

Ted, I bought this saw a while back and how you put up with it as long as you did is beyond me. The blade changing is so frustrating it's ridiculous. I only use it now to hog out wood from inside areas but it's useless for delicate work. You were being kind giving it 2 stars.


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## dbhost

Funny you should mention the older Firestorm line… I have a Firestorm miter saw, and aside from it being a fixed CMS (non slider), it has been a VERY accurate, and reliable saw that has put up with TONS of abuse… Far better than I expect from B&D… But I also have the misfortune of owning a Firestorm plunge router. Miserable piece of junk…

In all honesty, with my experiences tool wise, I have had MUCH better luck with Harbor Freight's house branded tools than with anything that comes from B&D except of course their coffee pots…


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## Blondewood

It's very sad about Delta and PC. I'm a hobby ww and those brands were perfect for me. Reasonably priced, reliable, good tech support, etc. All around they were perfect for users like myself. It's a big loss.


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## ic3ss

Bummer, and I had my eye on this same saw at Lowes. I ended up finding a Delta SS350 with about a week of use on it for $50. Being my first scroll saw, I went with that. So far it's been a smooth runner, only issue is that it won't take pinned blades. I'll be in the market again if I get to a point that it's not meeting my needs, but for now it's a good saw.


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## a1Jim

Sounds like a cut below


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## ic3ss

Well isn't that pretty much the trend of most of the tool industry, outsourcing manufacturing in china? When I was building my shed this summer, I found myself at Lowes more wandering the tool isles and noticing how few tools sported the Made in USA label. American manufacturing built up names like Porter Cable, Delta, DeWalt, and Black and Decker. Now they're all made over seas. Coincidense that these are all owned by Stanley? I think not.


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## RussInMichigan

I'm looking to move out of my garage for the winter(-10 or worse in Michigan Januarys is not fun) and I've been looking at scroll saws to keep me occupied. What do I look for? Any recommendations? I've been wanting to do some inlay work. Any scroll saws better for that application?


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## TedAGTG

Russ,
My experience says the finer the detail, the more important low vibration is. That was one quality the Porter Cable saw had going for it (at least the first one I picked up). After I returned the PC to Lowes, I began searching in ernest for the next saw. I really didn't have the money but the Excalibur EX-21 was going to be "the one". The local woodworker's store has them with stand for - gulp - $739.00. I had been looking at a couple RBI Hawks on eBay but couldn't work out the shipping. The RBI 220VS goes for $350.00 to $600.00 used and $1200.00 new. I met a turner at an art show who had an RBI that was his father's and he wasn't really into scrolling so I ended up buying that at a very fair price. I would recommend a Dewalt DW788 or a used RBI. Measure twice, cut once. Good cutting!


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## RussInMichigan

Thanks TedAGTG,

I'd be in the $500.00 range for a scroll saw purchase. I see the youtube videos of scroll saw masters doing some amazing things and I want to get a couple hundred hours experience getting a feel for it so I can better appreciate the skills they have, and, then too, begin thinking in scroll-saw-ese.


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## stevenhsieh

I'm curious how many hours did you use the scroll on a day?

Buying "Brands name" is a mistake, for example Porter Cable, Delta, Dewalt ,Powermatic, Jet tools quality has slipped in recent years


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## Howie

I've been looking at this saw for a month or so. I'm not a scroller(yet!) but after reading the reviews in a wood mag I thought this may be the place to start. After reading your review, I think it's the place to start-somewhere else<g>.
Thanks for the write up.


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## dbray45

Black and Decker, as the story goes, moved their Maryland manufacturing to Mexico. They moved their managers to Mexico, let the machinists and line employees go and when the managers trained the new staff in Mexico, let the managers go. The Dewalt line was the original B&D "Professional" line of tools. I have been told that they have let those products slide as well. I have a few of the older Dewalt tools that have worked well but they are not the precision tools either. When a retailer that sells them told me the other day, "if its yellow and black, throw it back," is the response, its not good.


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## lanwater

I just got a dewalt dw788 The noise is very low and vibration minimum.
toolplus.com has a special on them now.


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## Jack_T

I also have the Dewalt dw788. I just completed a project for halloween. 12 adjustable skeletons (I posted it as a project). I did interior cuts, exterior cuts, and stacked cuts. I performed like a champ. I love the saw. It had very low vibration and easy blade changes.


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## TedAGTG

Hi Steven H, 
For all of August and 2 weeks in September, I sawed 4-6 hours a day M-F and at least 10 hours a day Sat and Sun. I know it sounds obsessive - it was! I was trying to build up inventory for a couple craft / art shows in Sept/Oct, plus after 3 years of slogging along on my Craftsman, I really did appreciate the lower vibration of the Porter Cable (the first one). The coolest end to this sad saw story just happened yesterday; I decided that I was deep enough into scrolling that it was time to stop messing around and get a quality saw. I met a wood turner at a local show earlier this month who mentioned that he had an RBI Hawk saw he didn't use. I picked it up yesterday. This is my mid life crisis tool - the equivalent of a Corvette. That cuts wood. And doesn't vibrate. This will be good. Now I have to remodel the bathroom in our master bedroom to score some points with my much better half. I doubt I'll get a ton of time on the new saw for a while. But it's still a happy ending.


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## woodbutcher

TedAGTG,
I'm very sorry to hear of your experience. I have used the very same saw for quite sometime now and have nothing but great things to say about it. In fact with a shop that also has an RBI Hawk and a Dremel Scroll station saw in it, this is my go to saw. While I use it primarily for cutting puzzles out of 1/4" Baltic birch I have used it for some fretwork and even use it on 1 1/2" oak from time to time with the proper blades of course. It is so much easier to twist one knob on top of the blade holder to release and secure the blade on this saw while doing fretwork for me than using the tools to do the same thing on the RBI Hawk, which is an older version of course.My saw has remained trouble free and is very smooth with no real discernable vibration and has been put to the test for quite sometime. I have been amazed that so little money could buy so much convienence and ease of use. My rating for this saw has to be at least 4 and 1/2 stars, the other 1/2 star being omitted only because it is 16" cut capacity opposed to 21" which I would prefer on some of the larger puzzle designs.

Sincerely,
Ken McGinnis


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## TedAGTG

Ken, 
I am glad to hear you were able to get a good one. As I stated in the original post, I liked a lot of the features the saw had. What really drove me crazy was the lack of quality in the three I owned. It was the inconsistancy of workmanship and lack of service on Porter Cable's part that really put me off. I communicated all these concerns to them first. Their reply was to tell me to contact Rexon. My response was that the saw had Porter Cable on it and that they should own up to the problems. It would seem that they should have contacted Rexon, not me. Lowes really did all they could, their service was great. By the way, your work is beautiful!! Thanks for weighing in!


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## sgood

Because of the web site I run I get thousands of emails every year about scrollers experiences with different brands of scroll saws. Unfortunately Ted's experience is not that uncommon. It's also not uncommon to hear a comment like that from Ken that they have a good experience with the same model. The Porter Cable saw sold a Lowes is a good example. I have people tell me it's total junk and others that say they love it. The bad thing is I get those comments on just about every scroll saw sold. After you take account of the fact that some just have not learned the proper setup and use of the tool you still have many people that truly are having major issues. Ted seems to have given the PC every chance to preform well but it did not go well for him. The problem is quality control from the factory and poor handling during shipping. Some of these saws take a terrible beating before the get to the show room. That's not good for a tool that needs to be able to track a pattern line that is 1/64 of a inch thick. It's also apparent that the the build quality from saw to saw can vary a great deal in some brands. One theory I have is that the quality problems run through batches. That's why taking the saw back often gets another one that is just as bad. The stores get a batch of saws that all were built the same run and they all have problems.

When you realize what it takes to design, manufacture and support a precision tool like a scroll saw you are never going to get consistent quality for the price of these tools. Even the mid priced DeWalt has quality control issues sometimes and it sells for nearly $500. Think about it, you can spend $250 for a high quality dovetail hand saw. As consumers we want the highest quality for the best price. It's a tough line to to stay on.

On the positive side these lower priced tools are an entry point for most scrollers. Without them 90% of people would never even enter the hobby. I have also seen some great work come off these entry level saws. I would bet that most purchasers of high end scroll saw are upgrading from one of these saws.

Ted I'm glad you found a saw you like. Bushton Manufacturing purchased the line of RBI Hawk saws last year. I have met the new owners and they seem eager to continue making a quality saw. I think you will get a lot of good use from the Hawk.


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## Howie

I just got off the phone and am supposed to go look at a DeWalt 788-20" type 1 with stand and foot control tomorrow morning. $250.00…is that good??
(saturday)


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## smw6442

i bought one of the Porter-Cable scroll saws and i took it back after a couple of days..cutting on it was like using a jack hammer..i bought it as a back up when my DeWalt DW788 went down and waiting for parts for it…i'm looking to get the ex 21 some day soon…steve


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## TedAGTG

Howie,
Tomorrow sounds like your lucky day. Best of luck.


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## Howie

Ted, I appreciate your above posts. My wife told me if I wanted that saw(PC) to buy it. Based on what I have been reading lately I decided to shy away from it. Hopefully this saw(Dewalt) is everything the guy says it is. He has a picture on CL. Guess I'll find out tomorrow morning.


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## Howie

Well I bought it! Nice saw,quiet hums right along and I think the price was right. Now…the guy has another one too just like it. Extremely nice guy and his wife is a carver. She showed my wife and I some of her work and believe me, it's gorgeous. The detail is amazing.(carved Santa Claus with a sack full of toys on his back)
Here is a heads up. The guy buys and sells a lot of different tools and he has bandsaws,DP's,sanders,table saws
jointer and much more. He lives in Hudson Florida and if anyone is interested send me a message and I will give you his phone number. He has stuff on CL but does not do business by email.


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## SCOTSMAN

I bought an expensive top of the line Delta Scrollsaw (fret saw as they are also called here)here in Scotland and had t remendous trouble changing or holding the blade the book was next to unseless. Anyway I persevered and with the help of an elderly friend Fred we worked out not to undo the knobs too much and rely more on the flip lever still not great but eventually it works.Sorry to hear you had the same trouble.Now porter cable, delta, that's disappearing delta ,and black and decker, dewalt , are all owwned by band d . Alistair


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## SteveMI

Ted - You are going to be pleased with the DW788.

I bought a Dremel scroll saw 12 years ago and it had less than two hours on it until this last summer. After a whole lot of re-engineering it to get it aligned without looseness it cut over 200 animal puzzles in the past 5 months from 1" thick stock. My thought is that it was built before the real cost cutting took place and still had some level of quality in the components, just some poor design choices.

Last month the dremel started making more mechanical noises than I wanted to hear or try to analyze any more. So I bought a used Dewalt 788 based on a lot of online comments at scroll saw sites. My 788 is from a era when production transitioned from Canada to China and needed some work that is well documented on the internet. If you hear knocking at higher speed, search the net - the fixes aren't that hard.

Bottom line is that I can now cut significantly faster with far less errors on the 788 than I ever could on the Dremel on its best days.

Steve.


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## TedAGTG

Hi Steve,
I actually ended up with an rbi Hawk 220 Ultra. It was made in 1995 and has been very well cared for. I had a chance this weekend to saw for a couple hours on it and I am amazed at the smoothness and power of the saw. Blade tension is so important with thick wood. I know the DW788 is a great saw. I have done a couple year's worth of research and scheming to get one. It didn't happen mainly because I didn't want to spend the money for a new one and several recent reviews and blogs have noted the inconsistancy in quality with the "move", plus I'm on a personal boycott of Dewalt, Porter Cable, Delta Stanley etc. I'm sure you are enjoying your DW788 as much as I am the Hawk. After 3 years with my Craftsman 18" saw, it seems like heaven - Ahh, perspective….nothing beats it.


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## Howie

Started playing with my "new" toy today and I think I'm going to like it. Even the wife is impressed. I think I got a good buy.


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## SteveMI

"Even the wife is impressed."

That is the best start!

Steve.


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## Howie

Well my joy with the 788 was short lived. I got along fine with it for a week or so and then the motor burned up.
(type 1 saw) Now like everything else Dewalt sells you want a motor you go buy a Dewalt motor…only 214.00 to replace it.
I really liked this saw but against others suggestions I have bought a new PC. Cheaper than the DW motor and I have a warranty. I went to two places to get the DW motor reconditioned and they told me the same thing, they just junk them.
So far I've only used the PC a little and it may be slightly underpowered but then I never expected to cut 2 " oak.
I haven't been into scrolling very long so time will tell.


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## TedAGTG

Howie,
I am very sorry to hear that the motor went south. It's probably too late but did you check eBay to see if anyone had a saw to part out? I wish you the best luck with the Porter Cable. The actual performance of the saw - the first one I bought - was pretty good. It was the manufacturing quality that finally caused me to return it and get the Hawk. The Hawk is very good. I did a Cherry box for a paying customer (the best kind) with the Hawk. I am posting some pics on my site.


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## Howie

Thanks for the reply Ted. 
No I didn't check on ebay. I just figured I'm already out 250.00 so I couldn't see putting another 214.00 in it. I would almost have the price of a new one (499.00) and still have a used saw. If I bought another used motor I might be in the same boat a little farther down the road. I don't blame the guy that sold it to me, I think he was up front with me. You never know, I could have used the saw for ten years and never had a problem. I'll give the PC a try and see what happens. Like I said I haven't been into scrolling very long so if it turns out to be something I get a lot of use out of, I'll look at up grading.
Thanks again


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## smoke

I HAD the same saw. bought it through LOWES with the extended warrenty thinking, if anything goes wrong with it, bring it back and get a new one. well, it needed repairs within one year and LOWES said that it's still under manufactures warranty, it will have to go through them. so i shipped it to them and they said 4-6 weeks. about 8 weeks into it, i called them up and inquired about it. well, apparently porter cable bought some overseas company and put PC's name on it. the piece that i needed was on back order for another month. i didn't buy a quality saw for no reason, neither did i expect that i would be out of a saw for over 2 months. they sent out a check for me to be reimbursed, but that doesn't help the time i could have spent on it. never again porter cable.


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## Howie

So far the one I bought is holding up. I will admit I don't use it that much but it is handy.
Not the saw the 788 was but it will get me by.


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## 9FINGERTIM

i guess youre playing russian roulette buying any power tools these days you read the reviews and one perso0n buys a tool and its wonderful and another persons same tool is junk you read that some sears tools are junk and then you read that some are the same as the expensive makes, you read that harbor frieght tools are junk and some other person (me included) thinks they are the best for the money.grizzleys wonderfull vs grizzley sucks. one person says somebodys customer service is wonderful and the next guy has a terrible experience with them. i know all the reviews are consistant with the experinces of the writers.but what gets me is the inconsistacies in quallity of service and products from the companies (who may or may not.( who knows) be the manufacturers of the tools ) sombodys gonna have to go to china or wherever to kick some serious butt.Meanwhile half of my power tools are 35 years old or older and im gonna keep buying every old one I see at yard sales. I think the guys who buy the very old tools on the vintage tools site have the right idea!


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