# How much time do you spend on the parts they don't see?



## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I have been doing a lot of sanding this afternoon. Some of the areas that I am sanding are where realistically they will never see (underneath in this case). The question goes for sanding and for putting the finish on, do you spend as much time on those areas as the obvious ones? I usually do, am I obsessive?


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I feel the same way Monte…I obsess about every minute detail regardless of if it is seen or not. I always have believed that each and every detail is most important and anything that is not given my complete and total attention would be the weak link in the chain. I can never fault anyone for doing the absolute best that they possibly can. NO shortcuts or cut corners…!


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I learned a long time ago that I'm the only one that sees the faults I made. Since then, I sand the backsides to 150 or 180 while the face gets 220 or 400. Finish for the unseen is a bit iffy. If it's going to see any moisture, like in a kitchen situation or on a an open porch, I'll do a better job.

Anything that is likely to be felt and touched either in passing or in checking it out gets the presidential treatment, (As long as it's a Republican president).


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## johnhutchinson (Dec 9, 2013)

You are obsessive. End of story.


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

If the client is likely to see/feel it, I treat it like the top/face. If not, I sand a couple grits less and apply a couple coats less clear coat.


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## wncguy (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm probably a little O/C too… but Monty, I'd rather get something from someone like you versus those that don't get hung up on details.


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## wncguy (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm probably a little O/C too… but Monty, I'd rather get something from someone like you versus those that don't get hung up on details.


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

A guilt factor of sorts sets in if I skimp on any part of a project. Even if no knows or notices, or cares for that matter, I do. So I too am obsessive


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

do you spend as much time on those areas as the obvious ones?
Yes

I usually do, am I obsessive?
No, you're a professional doing top shelf craftsmanship.

In agreement with the first to comments as well.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok Dallas, that got an out loud laugh.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

That's right Dallas, anything that's going to be seen and touched should be sent to fight an unpopular war based on lies and corruption so a bunch of billionaires can make more money, bought and paid for by the Koch brothers and Halliburton. There is a reason LJ stopped allowing discussion of politics in their forums.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Libya turned in their nuclear weapons, that's called a dividend

the world can live with.


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

You are not obsessive, only a true craftsman. Look at store bought items, turn them over and see what you get. All you are doing is taking complete pride in your work. But then again thing about it, who is going to see it.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Quality is not obsessive rather an obsession? I sometimes over due something. But as bad as I am I have to make an extra effort. And yes I still screw it up. Case in point my recent desk rehab.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I tend to obsess. However if you ever get a chance to see some of the works of the greatest masters of furniture making, you may be surprised. A lot of the priceless pieces the backs are not even planed. It's quite eye opening. They felt if you did not see it it did not matter.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Depends what it is. If it's a piece of furniture that can be moved around and maybe seen, I'll take care with all areas, except the bottom. If it's gonna be attached where the bottom, top and back will never be seen again, I'll not put much effort there. Difference for me Monte is that pretty much everything I do, I charge by the hour and figure they would rather not pay me for something they will never be able to appreciate. Someday maybe I'll do more like you and actually sell stuff, then I'll probably worry more about my product.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

That is determined by the client and how much they want to budget. I can tell some like perfection and others just want something nice without breaking the bank. Those latter clients I save as much as possible on the parts that won't be seen and put all the money towards external appearance and function.

Basically the same as what Firefighter does.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I can see the point when you are saving the customer money. When I contract an item with a customer, I quote a flat price regardless of hours. So the longer it takes me to do the project, the less I make per hour. Guess I will never get rich doing this.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I leave areas rough that are blind as long as they don't affect the function of the piece. Drawer bottoms can be have resaw marks no problem.Even the back of cabinet can be rough.The underside of a table the finish need not be perfect.
I figure my customer will appreciate not paying for unnecessary work.And the sooner I get done the better.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I would like to get to that point Monte. I have not done very many repeat pieces. When I did, the person who I was making them for never came for them. I do usually give people a ballpark that I think the piece will cost. I'm usually pretty close. Everything I do is for friends and friends of friends. I will definitely not get rich doing this.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I don't build for others, but agree with AJ2. Build it right, with good finishes where they belong, and the stands on it's own.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I actually do quote a flat price up front but it's based upon my estimate of how long the project might take to complete. If I intend to sand in hidden locations I will estimate those hours into the quote.


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## AngieO (Jul 9, 2012)

Monte… I think the way you do it is great. It's not obsessive. Just quality work. I do like firefighters answer as well. I just shared today about the job I'm working at. These are very nice pieces and cost a pretty penny. I think the first table I worked on was a $1500 custom order table. Had a rough sawn cherry top and walnut legs and aprons. I sand the bottom of the table to 120. The top gets 120, then 180. The legs are the same. However… on the aprons he has me go to 180 only on the fronts and bottom. The back side of the apron doesn't get sanded at all. The finishing room is not in the shop. It's in a separate building on the 2nd and 3rd floor of the store (yes.. there are actually 3-4 finishing rooms. LOL). I have not been there from start to finish on a project but I'm pretty sure the hidden parts do not get the same finish.


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## scoobydooo9r (Jan 24, 2008)

I usually won't change anything about the finish application in the attempt to control any wood movement that could occur. I'm not sure how scientific it is, but I feel that giving a panel 5 coats on one side and 3 on the other could lead to unequal absorption of moisture. Again, not sure if that is actually true or not, but I don't feel like testing that out on client projects.

Sanding is a different story though. As long as it will absolutely never be seen or touched, then I won't obsess about the sanding job too much.

I generally look at it as if the piece is being bought by a woodworker. If a woodworker would notice a difference, then there's no way I'm going to skimp.

Great topic Monte, really gets you thinking. And great responses from everyone too!


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I guess it depends on the project. Not everything gets the white glove treatment. I don't really look at it as if someone can see it or not but if it needs it or not. I sand but not stain the inside of drawers, I sand but not stain the bottom of a table except for the skirt. 
Pretty much everything gets sanded because I think it looks better.

As far as Obsessive, I would say you probably are but if it doesn't bother you then it doesn't matter.


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## IndianJoe (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm obsessive to some if I'm making something for some one I make it as if I was buying it no short cuts here , I want them to come back not because they my get it less then in a store , but because of the work I put in to it .and when you do good work I find that most will tall a friend about you and you good work that you do .
But yes the bottom of something don't get the 1200 like the top but it will get the 180 lol .
take care my friend Nimkee


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

I sand to 150 or so, but still use the same finishing process. I have to fight my obsessive side, but when it comes to sanding, I'll do anything to stop earlier.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

If it wasn't for sanding, I would quit woodworking.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

All great points here and I'm sure your question has been answered many times over as I agree with others comments, now when it comes to a custom order for a customer, I don't fret over budget if they can't afford my prices then I politely let them know that I understand and please feel free to contact me if they change their mind. I no longer do customer orders though just my own personal reasons, I'd rather build it they way I want and if they like it then they buy it.

Now to the direct question of finishing, as others have stated I think it depends on what it is, the smalls that I and Greg make can be viewed from all angles so even the bottom gets a sanding and finish. I learned a lesson a year or two ago and I make sure not to make that mistake again, their can be no flaws what so ever period in the type of projects that I make, customers can be picky and they'll nick pick the hell out of you on flaws etc…. I lost monies on this deal but it's all about customer service and so I did what I needed to do in order to make the customer happy.

As for as my sanding (finish) goes, I sand all of my boxes to 600 and the bottom to 150.


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Monte,

Don't short yourself. Use Huff's cost projections. If you are not doing better than break even increase the cost to the customer. I don't think I have seen your type of woodworking projects out there? I'm sure your unique style is what attracts and brings them back.

A gun case is much bigger than a Jewelry /valet box as Randy said.

I have seen hand planed surfaces that match sanded finishes. Pine is also a different and more difficult material even though it is more commonly used.

Like others have said the bottom of a table or a drawer and the wall side of a gun cabinet may need less gloss, though not less quality in construction.

Great thread!


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Depends on price and type of woodwork. A rocking chair is much different from a cabinet.
In general, everything gets sanded to 150, finished areas beyond that.
I was earning a living but sanding doesn't pay the bills. No time to be obsessive.


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## hoosier0311 (Nov 8, 2012)

If I am building something for me, I dont get too wrapped around the axel about it, but if the piece is for somebody else or if it is being sold, I treat every surface the same way.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Be careful about choosing when you finish the back/unseen side of furniture.

I found out the hard way, at least with Oak. I was doing a restore on our 100yr old sideboard and re-created a top backsplash and doors on the piece. Had difficult time matching stains. At first I decided to stain and refinish BOTH sides of the newly added backsplash. That is where my problems showed up.

When I finished the backside of the splash, it began bleeding stain out of 3-4 places on the front side of the splash. In my relative inexperience I just started wiping it off, figuring that I had missed something. Then it happened again,... and again,... and again!

I am now screaming to myself WTF? *8-O*

Well as it turned out, oak is famous/infamous for bleeding/weeping stain through capillary action. I had created my own problem by finishing/sealing the backside. Had to take 1/4-sheet sander and sand off finish of the back in the areas that were weeping on the front. Problem solved immediately. No more weeping and the front side dried completely.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Typically , in France, the old pieces of furniture I used to work on, never were finished where they could not be seen.
They were left rough from sawing or from the axe or the herminette


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I have to be honest. All surfaces get the same # of finish coats but the unseen/untouched parts get a lot less sanding.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

You only need to make sure that the finish doesn't cause the project to warp later, due to humidity/weather changes. Just something to think about. My primary work is in small boxes (not that anyone could tell, based on my non-existent gallery), and there the finish has to be uniform, all sides. But I've built case work that has different levels of finish. I built a cabinet for my wife over a year ago (yet to post, or finish, for that matter), and only laid a couple of coats of finish on the "invisible" parts. The rest looks really nice, sanded and finished.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I usually do apply finish to all parts of a project though depending upon construction, not all get the same number of coats. If the project cannot warp due to the way parts are attached, the insides may only get sealer coats if they are not going to be seen or felt.

The undersides of tables get equal coats to the top surface.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

As I don't do this as a business and therefore have no clients ! I just try to do what I feel is right at the time.If I am not too tired then I do bottom and underneath as the top half,I.E.Fully finished. Alistair.


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## srzsrz (Apr 15, 2013)

Personally, I don't bother very much. To me, the purpose of finishing the visible bits is for them to be durable and look good. The purpose of finishing the invisible bits is merely for them to be durable. For instance, at one point I made a beech table top. The top of the table top was sanded to some very high grit (I forget the number) and got several coats of wipe-on poly, with light sandings in between and the whole shebang. The bottom was cleaned up a little with a plane and finished with shellac. I have yet to see anyone crawl under the table to inspect it.

I grew up in a house with quite a few genuine antiques from before the advent of power tools: French-polished mahogany cabinets and the like. Given the enormous amount effort they put into the show faces, it's amazing how shoddy the craftsmen were with things like the backs of cabinets meant to stand against a wall. Often you can still see markings written on them, which is fun because it gives a hint as to where the piece was made, e.g. a French wardrobe had parts marked "dessus" and "dessous".


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

A good book to read that touches this subject .The unknown craftsman.By Yanagi. It's a great insight to beauty,If your not very openminded you may want to pass.
This is also a recommended read by Sam maloof when he was alive.


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## hookfoot (Jan 23, 2013)

I do not consider mysely as O/C, but I do take pride in anything that I make.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I generally sand hidden areas to no more than 150, just so it's not splintery. Depending on the piece, I may or may not go higher than 220 on the visible, touchy surfaces, but I usually go at least that high. I do treat insides and sides of drawers as a visible, touchable surface. I sand my "world famous" mallets to 220. Keepsake boxes and other small items I usually sand to 400 or better. I don't make furniture… yet.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Monte, I've thought before about asking LJ's a similar question in regard to my table tops. They're planed by hand on both top and bottom. But the last couple I've made, I've left the bottom alone after the scrub plane. They're flat overall but still have deep scallops in them. I think it adds some handmade character if one were to look underneath - a signifier that "this piece was handmade".

I'm also a bit obsessive over fasteners even if they're never seen - like the screws that hold the tops down to their sliding brackets; Always brass, slotted screws. I think they look classy and beautiful.

I know personally that when I see a nice antique piece of furniture in a store or something, without exception, I look underneath at the construction, check out the drawers for dovetails, other signs of the joinery. Those details that are "never seen" ARE seen eventually and by the right people if you're in this for anything other than money.

I think the truth is that I build in hopes that future woodworkers and furniture makers will find my work in some antique store somewhere 100 years from now and admire and learn from it it as I do the antiques.

Or at least they'll say "Man that laid-off carpenter must've been out of work for awhile"!!!!


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

As a more direct answer to your question, I skimp an sanding if the part won't be seen. Always at least one coat of finish though.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Monte, you and I have the same disease! I do it because I enjoy the building process and because I want everything to be done RIGHT for its own sake. Is there a forum for woodworker's metal health on this website? Many of us need it.

Planeman


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## jimmyjjohn (Apr 15, 2013)

If the client is likely to see/feel it, I treat it like the top/face.

Thanks
PS4 Modded Controllers


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## matador8 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi Fella,

You all might no this all ready on the finely finish before you coat have you ever sanded with brown paper for your finely finish. You will be surprise how smooth and shiny the timber come up. I use it on all my finishes let me know what you think.

Cheers Graham.


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