# Is it still a handout dovetail if you use machines



## Jacksdad (Mar 28, 2017)

I'm making a recipe box for my wife for Christmas and I'm dovetailing the sides. When is it not considered hand cut, if you use more machinery than hand saws, or if you use any machinery, I used my scroll to cut the angled lines for the dovetail and I'll chop them out with my chisel, and cut the pins with a handsaw. How do you do it?


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Technically, I'd call yours 100% hand-chopped and maybe 50% hand-cut but not 100% hand-cut. In the end, does it really matter?

I do mine by hand but use Dave Barron's guide for the saw cuts. Some people think that's cheating, which to me, is ridiculous. Pretty much the only people in the world who care about the method are builders. Everyone else just thinks they look good.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided! 
Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
to make it look hand cut?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided!
> Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
> to make it look hand cut?
> 
> - Andre


Does this mean if I use a jointer plugged into an outlet to prep the sock the dovetails can't be called hand cut?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Cutting with a machine (scroll saw) means not hand cut.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided!
> Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
> to make it look hand cut?
> 
> ...


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided!
> Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
> to make it look hand cut?
> 
> ...


That's right, AG. In fact, if you use any tools at all - saws, chisels, etc - they are not technically "hand cut." They are tool cut.

Now, if you want to say, "hey Rich, you're so stupid, no one can cut wood with their hands," I say to you, where does it end? You control the saw and chisel with your hands, so you say they're hand cut. Well, I control the router on my Leigh jig with my hands, so are mine hand cut? Where's does the line get drawn?

Carl Sagan said that if you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

Let the ridiculousness begin…....


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

It's only a handout if someone gives you the dovetail machine :>)


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided!
> Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
> to make it look hand cut?
> 
> ...


Well the terminology needs changing then. instead of "hand cut dovetails" it need to be " dovetails cut my hand guided hand tools".

Rich, you're not stupid very often.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Your wife won't care if you used a scrollsaw, unless she is a Lumberjock, so call it what you like.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Your wife won t care if you used a scrollsaw, unless she is a Lumberjock, so call it what you like.
> 
> - Rick_M


That's pretty much it…..Lonnie Bird built a chest in an article I read a few years back. The carcase was joined by 1/2 blind DTs. He freehanded most of the waste out with a router, then chiseled them to fit…and called them "hand cut". Call it whatever you want, I won't argue.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Here's how I do it:
I use a router template and cut half blind dovetails. I have yet to cut one by hand but appreciate the skill and accuracy of those who do. I have to make some Recipe boxes too and I will use a lock miter bit for the corners.

Cheers, Jim


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

I think it's an issue of using electricity. If the scroll saw was human powered … I'd say yes, hand cut. But like Rick says … Your wife won't care.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I say it has to be with hand tools & by candlelight. LOL


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> I say it has to be with hand tools & by candlelight. LOL
> 
> - rwe2156


I was going to say that, but didn't want to cause a fracas! LOL.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Just call them dovetails.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I say it has to be with hand tools & by candlelight. LOL
> 
> - rwe2156
> 
> ...


I don't think that goes far enough. Did you forge your own chisels from metals you mined yourself? No? Well, that's cheating in my book. How about that saw? Did you buy the Lie-Nielsen off-the-shelf and ready to cut? You did? Again, that's taking shortcuts.

You'll all excuse me now, I have to tend to my smelter.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

On the other hand, how about dialing in the CNC to finish the cuts, and as long as you watched, they're hand cut dovetails. You did all the programming, and were there, and fed the wood, so it's not like the machine did them at all. So in a real sense, every dovetail is hand cut, there is no definition at all. Everything today is relative to what you 'think' anyway, no absolutes.

Glad we solved that problem, now to go oversee some work at the local cabinet shop so I can say I made my new kitchen!


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> On the other hand, how about dialing in the CNC to finish the cuts, and as long as you watched, they re hand cut dovetails. You did all the programming, and were there, and fed the wood, so it s not like the machine did them at all. So in a real sense, every dovetail is hand cut, there is no definition at all. Everything today is relative to what you think anyway, no absolutes.
> 
> Glad we solved that problem, now to go oversee some work at the local cabinet shop so I can say I made my new kitchen!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Touché


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

"Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain't "hand cut"!


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

> Technically if any machine was used in the process, the "hand cut" is voided!
> Heard of a very talented guy who would use a use a router jig but make scribe lines
> to make it look hand cut?
> 
> ...


Hey I didn't make the rules, I disqualified one of my boxes because of the chainsaw used when I cut down the tree and "hand" milled it! ( With my Alaskan Chainsaw Mill )


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Just call them dovetails.
> 
> - bondogaposis


Agree…..............

Personally if I don't care if it's hand cut or not.If I want it, I'll buy it anyway…


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> "Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!
> 
> - Ripper70


So, if we can't claim hand cut because the builder used a CNC, or router, or bandsaw, or scroll saw, or panel saw, or chisel, no one can claim hand cut. Love it! There are decades of misinformation out there that needs to be addressed.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> "Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!
> 
> - Ripper70
> 
> ...


It's the dovetail bible misinterpreted…


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

It's machine people taking exception to galoots that hand-cut dovetails. No mystery / misinterpretation at all. Ever heard of a 'hand saw'? When people say it, do you correct them and say any electric saw or blade with handle is controlled by the human hand and is therefore a hand saw? Or do you say there's no such thing as a hand saw? If someone tells you they ripped a 2×4 by hand, are you confused? If they use 'hand tools', do you have any idea at all what's involved?

Maybe they should be called 'unplugged dovetails.' Yeah, that would add clarity…


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> "Hand cut" means "hand cut". So, if you use anything, other than your fingernails to cut the dovetails, it ain t "hand cut"!
> 
> - Ripper70


These are images of true craftsmen cutting their "hand cut" dovetails with nothing other than their fingernails. Hope I've cleared that up for you. Any questions?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

In my opinion hand cut means hand saw and chisel.
I would still call it hand cut, even if you used a router to hog out all of the material, and just cleaned up ALL the edges with the chisel. As long as the chisel was the last contact with the wood.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> In my opinion hand cut means hand saw and chisel.
> I would still call it hand cut, even if you used a router to hog out all of the material, and just cleaned up ALL the edges with the chisel. As long as the chisel was the last contact with the wood.
> 
> - jbay


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Haven't you heard? We now live in a world of alternative facts. You can call them whatever you want. They will still be the best dovetails ever. Believe me.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Simply machined or not….........


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

Maybe a new term is needed. Such as "hand finished". Implying that most of the wood was removed with a electrically powered machine and the final fit was with chisel and mallet.
I have noticed over time that craftsmen who want it to be clear that the dovetails were "hand cut" make very thin pins that routers and templates can not duplicate. That still leave bandsaws and jig saw cuts but they still need a final fitting.
IMO the strength of the joint is first reason for dovetails and then an attractive appearance no matter how you did it.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

... I thought we kicked this mule to death last winter!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> ... I thought we kicked this mule to death last winter!
> 
> - Ron Aylor


You'd be surprised how many of us missed that. You'd be surprised how many of us older guy forget things. Personally I just skip the threads I do remember.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> ... I thought we kicked this mule to death last winter!
> 
> - Ron Aylor
> You d be surprised how many of us missed that. You d be surprised how many of us older guy forget things. Personally I just skip the threads I do remember.
> ...


Too funny … LOL!

My bride and I are headed to Fairbanks (from Atlanta) mid February in hopes of seeing the northern lights. Are we crazy or what?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Haven t you heard? We now live in a world of alternative facts. You can call them whatever you want. They will still be the best dovetails ever. Believe me.
> 
> - summerfi


Bingo! My Leigh jig dovetails identify as hand cut, and to call them otherwise is a hate crime. Persist in this bigotry and be prepared to hear from the DOJ.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Just call them dovetails.
> 
> - bondogaposis


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I cut the laminate on the bandsaw and finessed with a disk sander. Everyone thinks I cut them by hand because the pins are London pattern.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/99790


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> Bingo! My Leigh jig dovetails identify as hand cut, and to call them otherwise is a hate crime. Persist in this bigotry and be prepared to hear from the DOJ.
> 
> - Rich


We'll need to hear from your Leigh jig dovetails first, of course.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> ... I thought we kicked this mule to death last winter!
> 
> - Ron Aylor
> You d be surprised how many of us missed that. You d be surprised how many of us older guy forget things. Personally I just skip the threads I do remember.
> ...


t take the photos my self. There are some who live down the road from me who take photos of the NL all the time


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> My bride and I are headed to Fairbanks (from Atlanta) mid February in hopes of seeing the northern lights. Are we crazy or what?
> - Ron Aylor





> t take the photos my self. There are some who live down the road from me who take photos of the NL all the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW … I sure hope we see something like that! Thanks!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

The goes with the NL pictures above. I guess we can only put so much in a post. It cut out most of my wording.

Well let me tell you. Anyone going to Fairbanks in mid Feb is certifiably crazy. 
the chances of seeing the Northern lights should be very good. The light have been very active this last year or so.

Here are some recent photo of NL from where I live. I din't take the photos my self. There are some who live down the road from me who take photos of the NL all the time


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> ... Anyone going to Fairbanks in mid Feb is certifiably crazy.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


That's what I thought … but hey, remember I'm the guy who does woodworking by candlelight. LOL!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> ... Anyone going to Fairbanks in mid Feb is certifiably crazy.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> ...


A little North of Fairbanks


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> A little North of Fairbanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please tell me that's not mid February … LOL!

Back to the thread … if you use an ice pick on your dovetails … do you still consider them handcut?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

If you use a router or scrollsaw or bandsaw for dovetails and want to call them hand cut, is reality impacted at all?


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> If you use a router or scrollsaw or bandsaw for dovetails and want to call them hand cut, is reality impacted at all?
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


Schrödinger would say the the machine cut and/or hand cut dovetail exist simultaneously … it's our own realities, or perception there of, that determine which is right …


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Schrödinger also believed he could live with his wife and mistress at the same time, under the same roof. He wasn't right.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The invitations used to read…..Wife and/or Girlfriend…...


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> A little North of Fairbanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thing is malfunctioning, right?


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## mvflaim (Dec 8, 2009)

Yes, no one cares how you cut your dovetails other than other woodworkers. Stop drinking the Kool-aid.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> Yes, no one cares how you cut your dovetails other than other woodworkers. Stop drinking the Kool-aid.
> 
> - mvflaim


What's all the hype with dovetails anyway? What about half-laps, mortise and tenon, and the oft forgotten butt joint? Yeah … what's more manly a butt joint cut by hand or with a machine?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> Schrödinger also believed he could live with his wife and mistress at the same time, under the same roof. He wasn t right.
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I also hear that it is rumored that Schrödinger taught a famous politician about dovetails… ;-)


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

> Schrödinger also believed he could live with his wife and mistress at the same time, under the same roof. He wasn t right.
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop
> 
> I also hear that it is rumored that Schrödinger taught a famous politician about dovetails… ;-)
> ...


Would that be Le Royale w/cheese?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I also hear that it is rumored that Schrödinger taught a famous politician about dovetails… ;-)
> 
> - HorizontalMike


Even more random than usual. And inaccurate.


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

... and they're off!


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

> I also hear that it is rumored that Schrödinger taught a famous politician about dovetails… ;-)
> 
> - HorizontalMike


I don't get it. With Schrödinger dead in 1961, who's the reference?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

All I know is I opened the dovetailed box and the cat was dead :>/


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hand Cut means with a handsaw and chisel… no machines.

there is nothing wrong with machine cutting…. but to use a router, and say they are 'hand cut' is dishonest.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

At my Undergrad Alma Mater - - -


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## RonAylor1760 (Aug 17, 2016)

> At my Undergrad Alma Mater - - -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll make sure to pack long johns … LOL! I'm sure she was back in the truck as soon as she hit ground!


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## kryptix (Oct 12, 2016)

Honestly, I can't be bothered with going full hand cut, I'll almost always at least take out the waste on the table saw or router table. Does cutting the angles with a handsaw make them hand cut? I don't think anyone I ever made something for cared. Think about it, you can free hand the waste for most dove tails on a table saw with a good miter gauge or sled in a few seconds, while it'd take me much longer with a coping saw. Efficiency wins.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> All I know is I opened the dovetailed box and the cat was dead :>/
> 
> - jbay


That reminds me of a story from the '80s about Lexus QA versus Plymouth QA. The story goes that Lexus built their cars so tight that a cat left overnight would suffocate, and pass their QA test. If a cat was left in a Plymouth overnight, and was still there in the morning, the car was deemed tight enough for Plymouth.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

> I also hear that it is rumored that Schrödinger taught a famous politician about dovetails… ;-)
> - HorizontalMike
> 
> I don t get it. With Schrödinger dead in 1961, who s the reference?
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


I heard it was a young 15yr old, shortly before he died… ;-)


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