# Refurbished Planes vs. New



## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Full disclosure: I have a tool jones, the major reason I have a woodworking shop is so I have an excuse to buy and refurbish old chisels, saws, and planes but I'm not a collector and I have no problem with frankenplanes, chisels with my turned handles or saws with polished saw plates and replacement handles. I like to return a tool to prime working condition and then use it.

That said, with the introduction by Woodcraft of the V3 Woodriver planes there is almost no reason to refurbish a old plane to get a user other than the joy of returning an old tool to usable condition. An example: A few weeks ago I picked up a Stanley 603 (a #3 Bedrock) off eBay, by the time it made it to my shop I had $60+ USDs in it. It is a nice plane but to make it a good user, as good as a new Woodriver #3, it needs a Hock iron and chip breaker, that is a little over $70 USDs. Now I have $130+ USDs invested, not including the time I will need to spend cleaning and fretting the plane. For $125 USDs plus tax I can buy a new #3 Woodriver, it already has a good iron and chip breaker and unless you are unlucky about all it needs to go to work is taking it apart, cleaning the oil off, adjusting the torque on the screws (the factory has some gorillas working on assembly), and a quick hone of the iron.

When all that was available were LN and LV at close to $300 to $500 USDs a pop, refurbishing users made sense….now it is just a work of love.


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## hhhopks (Nov 22, 2011)

I have good luck with the blades that came with the planes. Yes, it needs cleaning and sharpening. I guess I just don't understand what all the fuss about on upgrading the blades. I am too cheap to upgrade the blades.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Nothing wrong with original iron, in fact usually very high quality steel, just a little thin but will take and hold a very good edge. I prefer thicker irons and chip breakers and was trying to make a apple to apple comparison, not a apple to lime one.

What ever works, Lee Trevino could beat most golfers while playing with an empty Coke bottle and I'm sure empty Coke bottles cost a lot less than a set of Pings .


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

"it needs a Hock iron and chipbreaker"

Unless it was pitted beyond recovery or you're a Hock stockholder, old planes don't need upgraded irons. Just my .02. Sorry it's harsh sounding, not meant that way at all … It's a good post / topic. Does everyone think they do? Then maybe I'm out of touch…


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I wouldnt/dont replace the iron unless forced to, due to pitting or shortness. However, you can get a #3 Pinnacle/IBC iron from woodcraft for less than $30. I have both a WR #5 and Bedrock 605s, while I am no expert…i will say they are actually quite similar. But I am somewhat a sucker for the "cool" factor of the vintage stanley, and restoring is enjoyable. However, it takes away from sawdust time. So I think I agree with your train of thought.


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## BrandonW (Apr 27, 2010)

I have a full fleet of vintage planes-and one new Stanley "Sweetheart" 62. Only on a few of them have I added a newer, thicker blade. I love the way they perform with a new blade, but as others have pointed out, it's not always necessary. While the Woodriver planes don't necessarily speak to me, I do think their advantage is that they are made of ductile iron and will not break due to a fall, so they have that going for them.


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough….While I change iron and chip breaker on most of my refurbished planes, mostly for the improved chip breaker, it isn't necessary to have a working plane. What I was trying to do is make an apple to apple comparison, to refurbish the 603 to be as close to the #3 as possible. I think my premise stands, if you refurbish a plane to like condition it will be a labor of love, not a means of gaining a cheaper working plane.

I think it holds true for true for Bedrock planes and while I don't know enough about Clifton planes to know it they are bedrock type or Bailey type, for Bailey type planes vs. LVs there can be some savings but even there it is mostly an enjoyment of working on the tool.

I'm guilty, there is almost always some hunk of iron undergoing refurbishing in my tool room. As Jessica Rabbit would say, "I'm just drawn that way".


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

"but to make it a good user, as good as a new Woodriver #3"

Sorry, Bubba, but we're at that awkward internet stage where we have to ageee to disagree. I haven't a WR plane in my till (although I've tested one) but have to insist I have good users. . The WR I tried had a tote design I found physically objectionable, so for those I'd guess I'd insist on a new wood set for them to be good users.

Again, good topic. And argument between hand tool users is bad kama. Know that I consider myself middle of the road re: spending money to get performance, and hardware of any ilk, even Four Square and Hercules, can be made to perform without 3rd party hardware…


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I think the stock blades on many of the older planes are very good, and shouldn't need an upgrade to hold their own against a Woodriver plane's stock blade.


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

I have hand me down Stanley's that are over 100 years old and they work just fine. I would not know what to do with a new hand plane


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## rockindavan (Mar 8, 2011)

I refurbished an old Stanley #4 and there is definitely more chatter then I would like with the original blade. Haven't gotten around to replacing it but for comparisons sake, the thicker blade will make a considerable difference.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I have to agree with Smitty. I'll take a refubed 603 over a WR anyday.

rockindavan, I've also refurb'ed many #4s. If you have chatter, there is something else wrong besides the blade. Make sure the frog is flat, and everthing else is tuned. A stock Stanley blade will not chatter. Thats not to say buying a thicker blade won't fix the issue, and its also not saying that its not the only way to fix the issue, but I'm just saying something else is wrong and you may have the same issue with the thicker blade.

I'm not knocking the windrivers. I'd just take a Bedrock if all else was equal.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

The WoodRiver's have added a well made alternative for the people who do not have the funds to purchase a LV, LN, and just do not like working on older planes. I went with restoring 3 old Stanley's which will put the cost near what 3 WoodRiver's would cost after adding Hock blades. I am enjoying the process of restoring the Stanley's, and I am learning a little troubleshooting along the way. A previous owner really "jacked up" (excuse the pun) my #5 Bailey, and it took a lot of time to work out the frog seating area. The little things that I have learned in the restoring process will always be with me, and that in itself makes it worth while. I can see where you are coming from Bubba, but the idea of "value" doesnt always come from the cost of things.

Some things I have learned over the past 5-6 weeks:

1. The older Stanley blades seem to cut just as well as a new "Hock".
2. Most chatter that I have experienced was do to improper setup, or from the frog not be seated correctly.
3. Getting .0000000001 shavings doesnt make me a better woodworker.
4. The totes are very important. If they are uncomfortable…..you probably wont use that plane very much.
5. I have learned 25 different ways of how NOT to sharpen blades.
6. I have learned 2 different ways of sharpening that do work for me.
7. Sharpening "freehand". It was worth the frustration and 500 hundred sheets of paper. J/K
8. Hock blades are easier to sharpen "freehand" due to a larger bevel surface.
9. Parts are cheaper for old Stanleys. It is worth buying junk planes for parts if the price is right.
10. A2 vs. 01…... I could care less. They both have thier pro's and cons.
11. Scary sharp vs. Stones. Toss up. I just bought new stones this weekend. They seem to be easier to use while sharpening freehand. Stones take up little room in the shop. Stones are easy to gouge if you are not carefull.

I have had alot of fun with these old Stanley's over the past month. The tips and ideas that I have recieved from alot of you LJ's have been greatly appreciated. I could have been just as happy purchasing the new WR, LN, LV planes, but it would have taken me a couple of years to learn what I have in the past 5-6 weeks. Thanks guys.

V/R….... John


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## BubbaIBA (Nov 23, 2011)

ShipWreck,

You learn a lot working with older Stanley's and refurbishing old tools is my major reason for having a woodworking shop. Your 11 points brought a smile, so very true. It is amazing how some tools have been abused and how much work it is to correct, the "ruler trick" or something simular on irons is most common, another is bad rust removal while getting the tool tarted up for eBay photos.

At this time I have the 603 that started this thread, a couple of type 11 and 12 Bailey #3s, a type 14 Bailey #4, and a couple of post WWII #4s (not a clue how I ended up with 'em, for the most part I try not to buy post WWII) and three bare soles looking for parts, along with a dozen or so chisels and a couple of backsaws in my refurbish que.

Refurbishing is great, it can teach new skills along with history and in the end you may have a very good working tool but it is not a way to save money on your tools in the long run.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

John, that's a great list. I like the way you put that together.

Bubba, I believe refurbishing is a great way to save money on tools in the long run. You need to be able to buy the tools right, acquire the right equipment, and like to do it, but I've saved loads of money. You also need to be able to buy tools as you find them, not so much when you need them.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

John, I too love that list!

I did some checking in my shop book and on line. The five bench planes in the Woodriver line run $575 via Woodcraft. I have those five (two as C models, not available as WR) and haven't spent a dime to refurb as they're ready-to-work, 20s-era Stanley SWs and spent $262.50. And they're (at the very least) comparable to WRs in quality.

Someone willing and able to do refurbs spends considerably less than that, I think. FWIW.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I must be REAL Cheap. I've walked around to buy old planes, even went into harbor freight for one. I also get to re-hab those oldplanes. A Stanley Bailey #8c @ $25. A Defiance #3 (post WWII) that was inherited ( $0.00) Stanley Liberty bell #129 ( re-habbed twice, so far) also an inherited item. Still have my little #110 Block Plane that I bought whenit was new, in the early 60s.

I have also refurbbed a Great Neck #1 ( stanley size: #4) into a decent user. used a Buck Brothers iron to rehab it, @ $3 each. Have had that one since the 80s. Bought a ready-to-use Jack Plane awhile ago. Still looking at a Stanley #26 that is sitting in a store, downtown. $30?? Not yet.

I also have a thing for old handsaws, lately, but that's another topic…..


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Bandit, you are an inspiration!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Everybody knows you have to hone and polish the chipbreaker 
to get the best cuts, right?

Usually the chipbreakers on old planes need some work for the
plane to work well for fine cuts.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Very good reminder. Yes, they're typically in need of a polish and even some bending to get the leading edge into full contact with the iron, across the entire iron.


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## jeffl (May 3, 2009)

I don't consider the Wood River a affordable alternative to Lie Nielson it's a blatant knockoff . I won't buy one and I used to walk through Woodcraft every time I passed. Now I only go to get a bandsaw blade here and there. I was lucky enough to go to The Woodwrights School and after spending the day there I came home and sharpened my worst broken handled wooden plane and it worked perfectly . I still have a lot to learn but that little hands on went a long way .


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Jeff, The LN's are a knock off that uses Stanley's basic Bedrock designs from the old days. I find no fault with Lie Nielson for using Stanley's Bedrock basic design. Take a pic of the #5 from WR and LN and then compare them to a Stanley BedRock. I think you will see what I am talking about. Stanley's design is pretty much the industry standard. I love the quality of Lie Nielsons, *and they are just flat out nice to look at.*


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Loren…. Yep. I put a negative grind on the backside of the chip breaker leading edge. They are mating the blades really nice now. I forgot where I read about the negative angle, but it made sense to me and I tried it.


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## jeffl (May 3, 2009)

Shipwreck , I know Stanley ( actually Bailey) set the industry standard and had plenty of knockoffs to deal with in their day. But LN took it to a new level in our day and one famous woodworker who made a nice living pushing LN after he left them he designed the Wood River , blade and all. He said it in a class I took . I think it's dishonest now and back then . I have the option not to support that now.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Jeff, I fully understand and appreciate your point of view. My thinking is…....The more people who can get into hand tool woodworking ,* the better!* I could care less what these "gurus" on TV or classrooms preach. They all go for the money, and will pimp what ever tool that will put a paycheck in thier pockets. I do not find fault with that until they start pimping tools that people dont really need. Being that there is no patent on the Bedrock design, that famous woodworker you mentioned commited no foul.

My local WoodCraft store cannot keep the WR planes on the shelf. If that means there are more people joining the hand tool hobby….....thats a good thing for all of us.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I seem to like these guys:









along with their bigger relatives









And the newest member of the "family"









And a cheapie ($8)









that cleaned up nicely









The MOST I've paid for a plane is $25, and most of mine are well below THAT. One just has to LEARN how to use what they have.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Nice fleet Bandit


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## jeffl (May 3, 2009)

Shipwreck on that point , the sheer joy in sharpening , tuning , and using hand tools I agree. They are often more efficient and safer . Folks need to remember that those .000000001" shavings are the part you throw away: )


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