# PROBLEMS WITH GENERAL FINISHES GEL STAIN????



## SKlaus

Hey everyone! I know this is a strange topic being that General finishes is pretty much foolproof. But I wanted to get someone elses opinion and advice. I had a run in with General finishes "candlelight" gel stain, and it took me some time to fix which perplexed me because I've had such good luck with General finish products ( and I think most people have)... So about the project

55" X 19 " 4/4 poplar table top for a desk. sanded to 220. Sealed with 1 1/2 lb cut sealcoat (Dewaxed) tinted with transtint golden brown. sprayed the seal coat. let it dry about 1 1/2 hours. light sanding with 320 grit to knock down the nibs…

So I applied the gel stain liberaly using a rag. and wiped off. As I was pushing to product around to cover some of the inconsistencies of poplar, I noticed that it was pulling itself off of the wood!! The more I played with it, the more it pulled up!! It dried super fast. If I didnt push it to where I wanted it in less than 30 seconds, It would already become tacky and pull up. 1st round was a no go… to many areas that it had come loose with big patches that looked like it didnt even have any stain at all… sanded it back down using 220… sealed again with 1 1/2lb cut sealcoat with no tint… Same thing happened… I ended up having to wait for it to dry, and then go over it again with a darker stain in order to cover all the areas it was pulling up from.

I am pretty sure it wasnt just the blotchiness off poplar because I sealed the heck out of it, and thats why I used Gel Stain…

I didnt take pictures (dumy me…)

I live in South Florida… Jupiter specifically… Working out of a 2 car garage. temperature at 90+ degrees and humidity near 100%...

could that be a factor? Any ideas, anyone? User error or environmental? did I over seal it?

Help please…????


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## DrDirt

Only thing I can imagine is that the sealcoat was really heavy, so you had a more sealed surface.

WHen I spray Bulls Eye Shellac - to seal it is diluted 50:50 with alcohol.
especially when I am spraying something like a chair with lots of nooks and corners where finish may want to pool.

It is not an issue generally, but if (as you are doing) I am wanting to apply gel stain as a glaze - the variation in the sealed surface is a PITA.

You did the sand down and spray a thinner coat - - but it didn't solve, so I realy don't know.
Two guys that I feel really really are great with finishes (sure there are more) are Charles Neil and Mitch Kohanek.

Charles is on this site periodically - Mitch Kohanek is in Minnesota below is an interview he gave.
I took a week long class from him 3 years ago.


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## SKlaus

Thanks! I sealed the first time at a 1 1/2 lb cut. I guess it's possible that I oversealed. But the way the stain was laying down, it wasn't blotchy, so I think the seal was ok. But I just had tremendous issues with moving the product around. I ended up having to lay it down 6" or so at a time across the peice before I wiped it off because it would dey so fast… And I couldn't overlap because if I did… It would would pull up the area that I just put down at the edges… Very peculiar…. I ended up getting a result I can live with by chasing the first coat with a 2nd of a darker gel stain to blend… It worked in this case but it makes color matching impossible… I will look for the gentlemen you mentioned and reach out to them…. I think I might also write to general finishes themselves and see what they say… Thanks again!!


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## Lumber2Sawdust

I had the same problem that you did using a General Finishes stain last week. It wasn't gel stain but I had similar results.

I used GF pre-stain conditioner then applied stain. It seemed to have a very short window trying to wipe it off, as the instructions say. It also came of in layers sometimes to where almost nothing was left. It was a disastrous project for me. Thanks to Charles Neil's response to my post on LJs I was able to get it all cleaned off, using water and a scotch bright pad.

I live in Colorado and it was 90+ degrees and about 5% humidity (no joke) so I was thinking it was drying too fast, too.

This was my first time using GF products. I tried it because everybody loves it. After removing all of the stain I put on a product that I see a lot of people complain about: minwax Polyshades. Love it or hate it, it worked a LOT better for me on this project.

Good luck with your project


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## cutworm

I'd give their tech support a call. Those guys have seen nearly every problem you can have. I like their paint but never used their stains.


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## tturner

Been there and done that on a nearly perfect book case i made for my daughter. Once you wipe it off, it takes all the color with it! I love General Finishes' products, but I will never buy that stuff again. I even called them and they said, yep, sorry it happens. If you look at my page here you will read where I had the exact same thing happen to me. Live and learn and learn to search Lumberjocks before trying anything new that relates to woodworking!


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## teejk

Just my opinion but I think any gel stains are more like paint than stain. I only use them in spots where I want a one time application that will not be noticed.

As for working with poplar, I finished my interior house trim with it without any sealer (including the fireplace mantle). MinWax stains, followed by water based poly. The "green" streaks stain up darker than the rest of the board but nothing "offensive" at all…in fact the variation is so subtle that it can makes for a very pretty finished product. The only downside is that you really don't get a clue as to what it is going to look like until you get stain on it!!!


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## pintodeluxe

Well I have had this problem with General gel stain alone, so it is no surprise to me that you encountered it over a sealcoat. Gel stain just behaves that way. It is streaky, and difficult to get a uniform color. Some call it an advantage because you can continue to adjust the color, and you are not "stuck" with it.
For myself, I like a heavy bodied liquid stain that evens out the tones in wood and unifies the project. I use stains high is solid content, and low in dye content such as Rodda, Varathane, and Cabot.
I also try to avoid using a sealcoat. I accomplish this by largely avoiding cherry and poplar. 
Here are some of my sample boards, including gel stains. 
http://lumberjocks.com/pintodeluxe/blog/35559
Good luck with your project!


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## SKlaus

Thanks so much ya'll!! At least I don't feel alone… I know poplar is blotch prone and can be difficult to work with in the color area… I'm gonna try old masters gel stain on a sample just to see if the characteristics are different. I have some general stains water based stain (red and yellow can not blue) that has just a slightly thinner consistency than the gel and goes on like a dream… Maybe I'll stick to that… Hopefully old masters works… Some of you mentioned NOT using sealcoat… But I have used stain on raw poplar and it looks very different, and in my opinion not appealing to me… Is there another way to seal it? Sanding sealer?


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## finishingfun

I have never really found gel stains to be of good quality and results. I have had good results with blotch prone wood by spraying a mist coat of water and acetone 50/50, evenly applied before stain application. It. Opens the grain and allows for more even colouring. Dont apply the water mix to heavily as it will pop to much grain and draw the stain in deeply causing it to go darker than you may wish.


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## JonBikeRacer

I just had a similar experience with a table top. The gel was drying quickly, and it made the entire table look blotchy and uneven. Luckily, I was able to fix it by following the instructions on the can, with one exception…

The only detail not stated in the instructions is that the gel needs to be applied liberally (they are not kidding about this) to the entire work area, and quickly wiped off, before the gel can begin to dry. If you are working with a large surface, like I was, it helps to have more than one clean cloth to wipe off the excess.

I hope this helps.

Jon


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## ravensrock

This post has me nervous now. I'm just getting ready to start a similar process (dye, Sealcoat, GF gel stain, topped with Arm-R-Seal) on some red oak nesting tables I built for my wife. I tried it on a test piece and it came out nice. Now I'm wondering if it will be more difficult on the larger project itself. Might have to rethink my finishing plan.


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## ChefHDAN

I had a problem with it drying faster than I could get it wiped off here, http://lumberjocks.com/topics/63778 but was able to fix it with mineral spirits, I didn't seal anything beforehand though, so I'm not sure what effect that may have with the gel stain, I was using GF Candlestick oil stain


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## SKlaus

Raven, In retrospect I agree with chef Dan. I think thinning 10% or less with mineral spirits or just sprinkling a bit on the surface while the gel is coating would really help to increase the open working time…. Just be extra careful to seal really well lest you end up with a darker color than u wanted. Don't be worried. Give it a shot!!


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## OggieOglethorpe

I think Sealcoat sanded to 320 is far too smooth to put any pigment product on, much less a gel stain…

What did GF tech support say?


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## pjones46

Could also be the Stoddard solvent and naptha content in the gel stain alomg with the Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light causing the problem


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## Cadena

I used Java gel stain general. but can any one tell me if I can apply a sealer or barniz to it please. because I did today and the doors have some bubbles on it. how can i repair it or fix it. i need help as soon as possible


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## Cadena

> Could also be the Stoddard solvent and naptha content in the gel stain alomg with the Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light causing the problem
> 
> - pjones46


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## evilbadger

I have also had trouble with the GF gel stains. I am in the Orlando area so weather conditions are similar. My project was hard maple and I used the Java gel stain after sanding the project down a couple times and starting over I found out most of the trouble was my own fault. The gel stain might look and feel dry but you have to wait a full 24 to 48 hours before applying the second coat or it will lift right off.


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