# Building a workshop: am I in over my head?



## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

About a year and a half ago I moved from an apartment to a house with a garage. "This is great!", I thought. "I can have a proper workshop! I won't have to lug my table saw out to the deck every time I want to use it!" And indeed it is very nice to be able to work in the garage…but as is the way of things, I still don't have enough space. I have to work around the laundry, the dry-food shelves, the bike storage, etc. I suspect that I will never have enough room. 

Anyway, I thought it'd be a good idea to build a shed in the back yard and work out of there instead (there's a shed there already, but it's old and too small and has no power and etc.). That way I could have exactly the workspace I want and the garage would be freed up for whatever we need to stick in it. But I have no idea how to get started on this project and exactly how much work it'd be. Thus far all of my projects have been fairly small things-cutting boards, building blocks, shelves, picture frames, that kind of thing. So while I have a decent amount of experience I'm hardly an expert.

All the plans I've found online seem like they'd be way too small. 8'x10'? You can barely even move boards around in that! I find myself thinking big, like 12'x16' or maybe bigger…but I have no idea what's realistic, especially since I'd be doing basically all the work myself. And my yard doesn't have drivable access, so I'd have to carry all the lumber back there by hand. Generally, I want enough space to set up a proper workbench; room to stow my larger power tools (router table, planer, etc.), lumber storage, and of course floor space. I'd need power; water would also be nice (but I could probably handle that by running a hose out), and insulation would also be welcome.

So basically I'd appreciate any advice y'all'd care to give me, and if there's any "general introduction" guides, or especially plans for larger sheds, I'd love to see them. Thanks!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

It will be less expensive to build a storage shed than to build a workshop. If your garage is big enough for your shop once all the crap is gone, then you are probably better off doing that. Just make sure that if you have a wife and kids that they understand that the garage is your "shop."


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## Woodendeavor (Apr 7, 2011)

If you want to build something small I would suggest calling your local permit office and see if there is a maximum size building you can put up without a permit. I know where I live I can build a 200 sqft building with out a permit. What ever you do don't call it a work shop, call it storage when you talk to the permit office.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

well I would be happy to help you through the process so the first thing is you need to get in touch with your city government they will advise you of the code for building such a shop and if it is legal to do it in the first place. dont skip this as I know lots of guys who tried to skip this step and got burned had to tear down their new shop and then had to pay a large fine. in my city the largest shed i can build without a permit was 12×16 and so that is what I BUILT.

i THINK THIS IS THE FIRST STEP IN YOUR JOURNEY

So after step on you will have to develop a working plan i drew mine up on paper the one thing different about my shed is it was to house all the stuff from the three car garage. I was able to get this done it had a few drawbacks like a freak wind storm that knocked the building to the ground the day before it was to be sided. So we re built it the second time i used hurricane straps to anchor the shed to the foundation.

a few oter ruls may make you change your plan in my city you can not run power to out buildings pretty crazy but if they catch you breaking rules they will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

so instead of me building a huge workshop in the yard i BUILT A SMALL SHED THE COST 1500 TO BUILD AND 300 TO ROOF I also was able to empty 99% of the crap in the Garage so i can have my shop. the advantages for me were better power access and more comfort as most of the shop is insulated and soon it all will be. also the easy access for delivering wood sheet goods are the worst to lug around the property to the back yard this made the 3 car shop a winner in my case. it would not work with out a nice water tight shed.


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## TeamTurpin (Oct 3, 2012)

Derakon, I've built a 12' X 16' workshop in my backyard and I love it. Check out the photos to see what can be done in a micro-shop.

http://www.teamturpin.org/house/shop.htm


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## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

TeamTurpin,

I just checked out your shop pictures. Looks like a great little setup. And those drop down tool cabinets are freakin' *genius.*


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I dunno…but for a hobbyist, you can start with the fact that you will be dealing largely with 8' sticks so if you can position a table saw dead center you are dealing with 16' plus wiggle room unless you have a door or window where you can get by with a shorter span. width is up to you but I think 16' would be enough. Standard construction would dictate keeping the dimensions in multiples of 4' unless you go with steel (multiples of 3' I think unless you like to cut metal).

Electrical probably best to take-off from the house (we have a pretty stiff monthly standard meter charge here making a separate meter pretty expensive). I ran 100amp to mine but most of that is "future". I have 3 20a 120v circuits in 3/4" EMT, 15amp for lighting and 2 240v runs…60amp would probably be enough since rarely will you use more than 1 tool at a time. Water??? I put in a line from the house but haven't livened it up yet and really don't need it much.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the response, all!

Cosmicsniper: the problem is that the other stuff that is stored in the garage really doesn't have a better place to be. I don't want our dry food to be far away from the kitchen as it would be if it was in a backyard shed; ditto the laundry. Bicycles I guess could go back there, but that's really about it.

Woodendeavour / thedude50: great call on contacting the government to check what's legal. I definitely don't want an illegal structure here!

TeamTurpin: nice workshop! There's a lot of clever ideas here. I'm amused that 12'x16' is a small workshop for you-it'd be pretty big for me! Unfortunately I suspect I'm not likely to find any barn builders in my area though-we're very suburban (San Francisco Bay Area).

teejk: thanks for the advice. I admit water was more of a "would be nice to have" type of thing. Easiest would probably be to just run a hose out; it's not like I need proper drainage or anything. Electrical coming off the main house was definitely what I had in mind-the fusebox has lots of room for additions.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I started off similar to you; I had a small garage that I used to make small things, eg. cutting boards etc. The garage also doubled as storage space for a lot of stuff. As my interest in woodworking expanded, my tool collection also began to expand…if you are just starting out in ww and are going to grow in what you make, you'll want to arrange to have space for a larger collection of tools, eg. router table, dust collector, possibly a bandsaw and a jointer, planer etc. As well, you'll probably want to consider some room for wood storage. 
Unless you have a bunch of money to spend on building a new shop, running electricity to it etc. it might be easier to find a solution to using your current garage and building a small storage shed for the "non-woodworking" stuff you have in it right now. 
FYI: my first "shop" was 12×24 (shared with bikes etc.) and my current shop is 17×31 which is my own space. First shop was too small, current one is just right, for now…


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Put another shed in the yard and put all the 
bikes and stuff in that.

A small work space is fine if you aren't collecting
machinery. Hand tool purists and Festool fanatics
find ways to work in very compact spaces.

Still, the easiest solution in my opinion is to 
banish everything you can which is not related
to woodworking from the garage. Build cabinets
for your dry foods and consolidate the laundry
area.


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

I've been in the remodeling business for years and Wood and Dude are absolutely right. Find out what your local building codes are. These can be a lot more complex than most people imagine. Some issues include ground cover, set backs, use etc. Some towns have different zones and you may have the required set back on one side of the street, but your neighbor across the street may not or may be in a dreaded "historical district." The best thing is to find out what you can build where you live without inspection or permit. This is a wild card. In some communities its very limited in rural areas usually its pretty easy. Most inspectors will be happy yo go over what your going build and would rather advise before hand than have to condemn something later on. If you end up building, drop me line and I would be glad to give advice.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

definitely check with your town about building permits…I think here it's 100 sq ft (hard to believe they would bother aint it?) but some places will make your life miserable without it…I was the 4th owner of house in NY where somebody finished the basement without permits…it cost me $10m to bring it up to code (today's code btw, not when it was built) before I could sell.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

teejk, I'm hoping you meant $10k and not $10m. LOL


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Any chance there's room enough behind the garage that you could just "expand" it? Perhaps by adding to the depth of what's already there you could put a doorway between and then decide which half is best for your shop. You might end up with the addition and half the existing garage for your shop, or possibly the garage and half the addition for the new shop area, and still leave room for the bikes/food/Christmas storage/whatever. And the permitting for an addition rather than a new structure might be easier to deal with the city


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

As a contractor of 25 years ,I agree about checking on the code but I would do it in a general way not giving your name or address ,just the area or town. Make sure your property is in the cities codes ,if not it may be covered by the county who may have different codes than your city.Some of things new builders forget to check is what are called set backs,these are required distances from the front,rear and sides of your property that you must not build on,as an example in my area you must 20ft from the front 5ft from the sides and 10ft from the rear property lines.If your property is not very large you might not be able to build want you want do to these restrictions. For a new builder I would recommend hiring experienced people to do the concrete and framing and maybe the roof depending on you physical status. The rest will go much more quickly once those parts are done by pros. During this time of year you should find someone who will work very reasonably get at least 3 bids if not more and make sure they are licensed and insured .


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I built a 24×30 shop in SLC Utah. 
The shop itself was around $23 000.00 ( the slab, the walls and the roof).
3 years later I have spent roughly 40 000. 00 + in the shop and I am still going.
This is never ending.
I write that not to show off but just to tell you that ti can get expensive


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

bert…it can get expensive but so can that waitress at the diner. you still have the shop. I never tallied it up because I built the shop at the same time as the house but I'm guessing I have $35,000 in a 30×56 (30×40 heated) steel building.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

live4ever…used to be that the "little m" stood for 000, BIG M was 000,000. maybe things have changed. I never got used to the "k" thing.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I am about 2 hours and a half away and would be happy to come upn and help you build the shop big advantage is i have all the pro tools needed to frame the structure and I will be happy to do everything except the roof I dont do roofs any more PM me if your serious and if you want the help I dont work for beer but dr pepper and some gas money and you have all the help you need to have a shop.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

thedude50, this is nice of you. 
I agree with you : I do not work for beer but for good wine.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

It took me a while to get used to the "K" thing too, teejk. I've worked in the commercial printing industry just about all my life and I can still remember using the "M" for 1,000. So, there is no right or wrong…...


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

thedude50: many thanks for the offer! I'm still very much in the "feasibility study" period, but if I do follow through, then assistance and advice from a more experienced woodworker would be wonderful.

I just measured my current "shop"-the garage is 10' wide (but I lose a couple feet of useful space due to shelving, the laundry, the furnace, etc.) and 20' long. It also doesn't have any kind of ceiling storage and the walls are cluttered with pipes and wires so I can't really install cabinets on them-it was a fair bit of work just to find usable open space to put pegboard on. Practically speaking I probably have about 120-150 square feet of usable space.

b2rtch: what were the major expenses for your workshop? That's much larger (~3x) than I would be able to manage on my lot, of course, but even $10k would seem like an awful lot to me for a workshop…perhaps I'm being unrealistic? You got a concrete slab foundation; I suppose a fair amount of money could be saved by using those concrete "feet" instead, at the cost of potential instability / unevenness down the road…

joein10asee: I did think about just expanding the garage, but I don't think it's really practical. It'd be extending alongside a kit-job sunroom that a previous owner installed, and that thing's mostly made out of glass and aluminum. I don't really want to deal with figuring out how to safely merge it into the rest of the building.

Loren: working on the cabinets.  Unfortunately there's only room for two more and one of them is pre-emptively spoken for (I'll be displacing another one by installing a dishwasher). Figuring out how to squeeze more storage space out of the downstairs of the house is a tricky business.

Again, thanks for the advice, everyone! It's very helpful.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

My dad wanted a small shop in an even smaller town in WA state. He only worked small projects by this time, and said a 10X16 shop would do. The local building inspector came by (about 16 years old, it appeared), and wanted to hassle us, but we were under code limits with our size, so sent him away. We put it on concrete piers, put down a plywood floor, did 2X4 framing on 2 foot centers, used T1-11 for the siding, and did a tinted plastic roof. Very minimal, admittedly. We did it in one weekend, just the 2 of us. Of course he couldn't put any heavy iron in there (he was down to a benchtop saw by that time), but it served him adequately for several years. Since he paid for materials, I don't know what it cost.

If you are budget challenged, check out used building materials. A bit more work, but you can save a lot.


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

A common alternative to concrete slabs are pier and pallet foundations. Basically you build pallets or frames out of 4×4 or 6×6 material and they set on concrete piers that are setting on a bed of compatible gravel.

This is known as building on the ground and is permittable up to a certain size of building depending on the zoning. Its much less costlier than pouring a slab foundation.

Wood floors can carry all the weight you would need as long as the floor frame is built close enough on centers and is sitting on a sturdy pallet frame.

What I did was purchased a few books on diy building of sheds and outdoor structures. Building a shed is not rocket science but it is a lot of work. The rafters gave me the most problem but that was because I had an odd slope angle and had to work between angles. Use some kind of standard rise and run. It will simply things quite a bit.

Everyones needs are different but I wouldn't build one less than 12 ft. wide if I do it again. Actually 14 ft.wide would probably be an ideal minimum imo. This gives you room for benches on either side with room inbetween for tools or assembly tables.

Better to build a little bigger than building too small .

You may at some time in the future want to extend a gravel drive out to the shed. Either way I would also suggest you have swing out doors on one end to faciliate moving large items into and out of the shop.

Good luck.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

building anything that will enrich your future

no matter what perceived thought others might persuade you otherwise

is a "win win"


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## FeralVermonter (Jan 1, 2013)

Just my two cents, here: cast the net wide, and don't let yourself get locked into one approach or another. Insulation, for example… Sure, it's nice, but my shop is an uninsulated garage out in balmy Vermont-gets damned cold in there. But rather than worry about insulating the walls, the ceiling, the slab floor, I just put on another pair of socks, and a hat, some fingerless gloves, another layer of polar fleece… you get the idea. When I need to paint or glue (impossible in the cold) I find a corner in the dining room, or basement. Only one day so far this winter that it just hasn't been workable. Not ideal, no… but then again, no real shop is ideal. And you need to realize this, really absorb it: just as soon as you hammer in the last nail on your "ideal" shop, you're gonna think of what you could have done better. So in your design process, leave the "ideals" for later: first ask yourself, what do you really need-then tuck in what bells and whistles you can fit later.

Just a few ideas to throw in the mix: one of those popup hangar things? (A friend of mine grew up in one, in TX). Or, since you're in SanFran, how about a yurt? I have friends who live in them and quite like them-one who does wood sculpture in his. Or you could build just a floor and a roof on posts, with a cabinet to lock up your tools-I have friends who mill wood all winter long under such structures. In my "long-term wish-list projects" book I've been doodling up a shop made of two shipping containers. This is not to say that any of the ideas I've listed here are good ones, but maybe they'll inspire…

Also-does it freeze in SanFran? My understanding is that you don't need much of foundation in areas where it doesn't freeze, but I'd run that theory by somebody who actually knows what they're talking about.

Oh, and one last thing: if you're able to merge the sunroom with your shop, I doubt you'll need to worry much about insulation or heat. Every winter, I throw a combination of old storm windows and plastic sheets over our back porch. Despite the concrete slab still exposed to the elements, and all the holes in the porch letting in the cold, it can get well over a 100 degrees in there on a sunny day: we open the door, and for most of the day we don't need to run the furnace. Warms up quite a bit even on lightly cloudy days.

I guess what I'm really suggesting is this: throw out your plans for one day, and approach the problem all over again. Don't use any of the ideas you've come up with so far. Might be futile, but you might get an "a-ha" moment out of it… Lots of ways to skin a cat.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I got in contact with the local government to find out what the codes are. The limit for un-permitted buildings is 120 square feet with no electricity or plumbing! So basically anything useful would have to have a permit. Phooey. Also the eaves have to be 18" from the property line, which is less distance than I'd thought; I guess they mostly just don't want e.g. rainwater from my building dripping on my neighbor.

Assuming I did get a permit…the backyard lot is about 50' wide, and plenty long. If I did put in a shed I could eat up 20' of width without really causing any trouble, I think.

FeralVermonter: popup hangar? I'd love to see what you're talking about, but Google's no help.

It doesn't freeze in San Francisco, but we do get the occasional earthquake, and where I live it does get very foggy. I'd rather have a fully-enclosed workspace for the fog if nothing else, since otherwise water would be everywhere.

RonInOhio: care to recommend any books to read?


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## TeamTurpin (Oct 3, 2012)

Sounds like a 9'X12" shed with a long, fat extension cord would negate your need for a permit. That would be tempting.


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## rickf16 (Aug 5, 2008)

I built a 10×12 shed/shop. I have to remove the yard equipment just to start woodworking. I laid out the floor and the wife came out, stood on it and said I should go 4 more feet to the west. Didn't to save money. This is the "rare" time I should have listen to her. What ever you decide on, add about 20% more space. I cannot even cut a full sheet of plywood


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## FeralVermonter (Jan 1, 2013)

Took me a while to track down what I was talking about, but apparently it's actually called a quonset hut.

I was just throwing out ideas, tell you the truth. My shop budget currently runs in the double digits, and honestly I've been broke most of my life, so I'm sort of a modern example of that old Vermont tradition of "making do." Looking at the crazy outlier possibilities never hurts, sometimes inspires, and every once in a while, it really helps. But there's a reason that accepted wisdom is accepted: it's tried and true. It shouldn't be ignored. But we also can't buy ourselves out of every problem. Me, I usually can't pull something off at all unless there's some crazy, cheap way to do it. One solution to building a new shop is to hire a good contractor to do it for you, and that's a great solution, if you can find a good contractor willing to take on your project and if you have the money to do it. (After all, a good way to do woodworking would be to hire a good woodworker… right?) But even in that scenario, if you really want a good shop, you'll still need to make educated decisions about all sorts of things. Now, while I hardly know anything about fine woodworking, I do know a thing or two about construction (that's all: no expert, but I've put a couple of years in). It's pretty amazing stuff, once you really start to delve into it. An art of its own, especially when you look beyond the cookie-cutter approaches that characterize so much of modern building. Earlier, you mentioned that 10K would seem a bit steep, but asked if that was unrealistic. That depends. If you're talking about hiring a contractor, I'd say so. But if you wanted to spend a year learning about building, and doing much of the work by yourself and with friends (and, in particular, finding ways to scrounge and salvage and otherwise replace store-bought supplies)... at the end of the year you'd have a beautiful shop that you knew inside and out, you'd have a whole heap of knowledge and new skills, and you might just come in under 10K.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I know what you mean about buying yourself out of situations vs. doing it yourself. When I bought the house it was a bit of a fixer-upper; I've done a lot myself but sometimes I've just thrown money at a contractor when the job needed to be done fast (e.g. refinishing the stairs after removing old carpeting) or just wasn't any fun (installing new flooring-one room's worth of that and I was done!).

I'd definitely prefer doing it myself over hiring someone else to do it, not just for cost reasons but also because that way I get to learn new skills so that next time I need to build something I'll be all set to go. My dad's house has a bunch of improvements that he did himself-he had to get the experience to do that from somewhere! Of course I'd be kind of leaping off the deep end by starting with a major structure instead of something smaller that doesn't need to withstand storms and earthquakes.

rickf16: ouch! You have my sympathies.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm in Petaluma, in the north SF Bay, and in the fall of 2011 and spring of 2012 built a 270 sq.ft. workshop with a living roof in our back yard. Except for pouring the foundation, I did all the work (with the help of my dad and a few friends). And I've got opinions!

First off, I'm going to totally disagree with Woodendeavor's comment: Tell the city right up-front it's a workshop. I tried to do the "it's a shed" thing, and because of that we got into a couple of go-rounds and last-minute changes because they thought I was trying to BS 'em on what the final product was. Especially since I went for a lot of insulation (for sound-proofing). The end-result of this was about $3,000 extra, including a little bit of scrambling to make sure that my building was Title 24 compliant and my shop now having better heating and air conditioning than the house. But I think if I'd been up-front with them I'd have at least not had to scramble on some of that, and may have been able to get around the climate control.

You mention that the eaves need to be 18" from the property lines, but check the rest of your setbacks. My wall setbacks were 5' from the rear and 4' from the sides, at that point eave distance doesn't matter.

Right now, go to your local lumberyard and buy a bunch of long 2×4s (2×4x12 or so?) and put up some story sticks. We had decided on paper that we could handle a 24' wide shop with 10' high walls. We put that up in story sticks and realized it would leave the rest of the back yard unusable, so we scaled it back to what we have now. It also gave us a chance to go by the neighbors and say "hey, would a building like that be an eyesore to y'all?", and turned in to one of the neighbors who's a landscaping contractor giving me a great deal on doing the foundation/slab pour.

Don't fear the permit process. The planning department just wants to make sure that you're building within their parameters. The building department is looking to protect future inhabitants of the building, and is just a good second set of eyes on your work. Yes, there are some annoyances of having to conform to some of the sillier codes (I have a landing in front of my shop door that I may end up removing, the aforementioned Title 24 issues), but they also caught at least one potential goof.

You can draw your own plans. I had to get an engineer's signature and calculations on my shop plans, but only because I've designed for a roof loading of 120lbs/sq.ft with that living roof. In the Bay Area you can design for 10lbs/sq.ft., and your county probably has prescriptive numbers for rafters and ceiling joists for standard roof loadings. So unless you're doing something funky with sound-proofing (like I did), wall studs on 16" centers, prescribed ceiling loads, 3/8" wall sheathing, a little time with the online wood beam calculators to figure the size of your door and window headers, and there you have it.

The other good thing about having drawn your own plans is that you know where all the nails go.

If you want to go super cheap, consider a steel awning structure, although that may be harder to wire, and you won't get climate control.

And, yes, if you swing the nail-gun yourself you can totally do something like this for under $10k.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Don't forget that homeowners association thing if you are unfortunate enough to have one. You seem to have much nicer set-back requirements than I did (no part of any structure, including eaves, extending closer than 63' from the center of the road or 50' from the back or 25' from the sides…and this is in the middle of no-where but Wisconsin is known as being "progressive" meaning people get their spot and then legislate everybody else out).

Have you considered a pre-fab garden shed? Might be a quick way to start. Then I guess "stuff" could happen over time (like electrical for instance..not condoning of course since that would be wrong).


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## toddbeaulieu (Mar 5, 2010)

I am here to tell you that nothing is too much for you to undertake if you put your mind to it, research it, take it one step at a time and are willing to put the effort into it.

I have accomplished many things in the past three years after moving out of the city that I never thought I could do.

It may take you a while. You may have to start with an empty shell and spend two years filling it in, but you can do it!


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## toddbeaulieu (Mar 5, 2010)

ps: I did some sneaky stuff with permitting and it weighs on me daily. I got away with it … so far, but I'd love to come clean.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the detailed and very motivating response, Dan! The blog will also be a great read later; it's always nice when people go into detail about their projects. Your workshop looks nice!

Sounds like I should go speak with the city in more detail. I'm not really interested in having dodgy additions to the house; I like it well enough but I'm probably not going to be living here ten years down the road (it's a classic "starter home"), and any additions that aren't really up to code would make selling it harder. I'd rather improve the value of the house than lower it. 

Good call on putting something temporary up to give me an idea of how much space the workshop would take up, too. I admit I don't really use the yard much myself, but again-no sense rendering it unusable since future owners might be bigger gardeners than I am, or just want more lawn for kids to run around on. The only tricky bit with getting 2×4s is that I can't fit more than about 8' of lumber in my Civic…I suppose if there were some safe way to secure boards to a roof rack I could expand my carrying capacity significantly though. It occurs to me that if I put a pipe clamp on a board, then I could probably secure the clamp to the rack…anyway, the point isn't the 2×4s, it's setting up some temporary structure so I can get a feel for what the final structure would be like, and I can do that with shorter pieces I have lying around, I'm sure.

Climate control isn't an issue where I live-Pacifica is very foggy in the summers so we hardly ever crack 90 degrees (32°C for people using sane units), and we have the classic mild Bay Area winter. So while I use the furnace a bit in the winter, I have no need of air conditioning. In the workshop I could get by with just a coat-it's what I do in the garage right now.

Fortunately I am not burdened by a homeowners association. I avoided them like the plague when house-shopping. Pay an extra $50-400/month so an organization can tell me what I can't do with my house? No thanks!

Annoyingly, I've had a heck of a time finding actual numbers for the setbacks, foundation requirements, etc. I'm sure that information is somewhere, I just can't find it!

Again, thanks for all the advice and recommendations, everyone!


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

todd…it's a trade-off…

no permits for "stuff" can often come down to removing the structure…so many of these guys are powerless at home so they make up for it at the office (my opinion only). the owner is never in a good bargaining position in those cases.

so if I wanted to do a "creeping" structure, I would make sure it wouldn't kill me to remove it…again this is only in the theoretical plane (wink/wink).


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

*RonInOhio: "care to recommend any books to read?" *

@Derakon

I picked up two.

This one is pretty good.










And another which I will add to this post when I find it .

Basically you can find a number of these kind of books at the library or 
your local Home Center.

Its usually good to look at a few as some books are obviously better written and illustrated
than others.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

this is why my shed is the size i told you about no permit required I have a mondo extension cord going to the shed it works fine for everything i need but thats why the shop is the entire garage.

I have some racks ill ship you a set if you pay for the freight the freight is something like 15 - 20 dollars the rack lets you carry lumber on the side of your car I used to own the company that sold these in the usa.

I went with wood floors and used 4×8 inch PT skids as the foundation they lay right on the ground. Also you will want to use hurricane straps on anything you build as your in earthquake central I added the straps after the freak windstorm ripped the shed down from that day on any thing i build I strap it is not expensive and it saves a ******************** load of effort that can be gone in a wind gust of 90 mph

PM me your address if you want me to send you the lumber rack for your car.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

RonInOhio: thanks; I'll check it out. I should also just check the library to see what books they have.

thedude50: looking forward to trying the rack out.  What's a "PT skid"? And thanks for the advice about hurricane straps. Generally it pays to overbuild. 

I've had no luck so far finding Pacifica's building codes (they keep just cross-referencing with other building codes and never actually stating the number I want), but it seems like 5' would be a safe assumption as far as setbacks are concerned. So I marked off 21' from the corner of the lot with a couple of plywood boards (thus marking a hypothetical 16'x16' workshop), and then took some photos:










This shed was here when I moved in, and it's in pretty bad shape. Storms make it lose roofing, and I'm getting tired of replacing it for a structure I'm not that fond of to begin with. The first step in any new-workshop project would be to junk this one.





































I think, from these shots, I wouldn't want to go further out from the side of the lot, but this distance isn't unreasonable. And I could make it longer (i.e. further from the back of the lot); I don't think it'd be a big deal if the workshop ate up the space currently taken by that big spiny-leaf plant, whatever it's called. There's still plenty of room for lawn; all I'd be removing would be the irregularly-shaped bits anyway (I tend to think of lawns in the functional sense, i.e. can kids play games on them?, so large rectangles are best).


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Two things: First, that shed probably doesn't conform to your setbacks, but…

Second: Just send your city's planning department an email. Or call 'em up. Say "I want to build a workshop/accessory structure in my back yard, what are the restrictions?". They'll save you any amount of searching on the web.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm bored!

http://www.cityofpacifica.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=2500

I think you have to start with "zoning" (usually tied to code/building depts but doesn't look like it in your case).

So make the call and ask for the "zoning department" and ask about set-backs for a large garden shed (you being from that part of CA, if you promise to grow pot in the nude they'll tell you to build where ever you want…just kidding there).


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Dude! Mow the lawn!


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## jap (Oct 10, 2012)

^ to busy building projects


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

The way I see it, the grass'll just die off in a few months when it dries out again anyway.  I'm only one guy maintaining this place; I'm focusing on improvements that'll stay improved after I've finished them.

Anyway, I got in touch with the Pacifica planning department. They can't help me with plans (I'm guessing a legal requirement) but they did point me to the right place in the building code for setbacks and the like. teejk, you were right-it was in the code under Zoning, then "Projections into Yards". Very intuitive.

The setback requirement actually is 18" from the back and side of the lot-actually I think I'd want more space than that just so I can maneuver around the building! Otherwise how am I supposed to e.g. fix the fence? There's also a bunch of restrictions that I'm not going to run into-less than 600 square feet (ha!), less than 40% of the lot can be developed, less than 12' tall, etc.

I guess what I really need to do now is start educating myself on what all goes into making a building, start looking for plans that suit my needs (or that I can crib off of to make a plan that does), etc. Lots of learning still to be done…


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Cool, so now you can draw a picture of your lot with the appropriate dimensions, draw front and side views of your shop, and figure out how high you want it. Take story sticks out, mock that up, see how much it dominates. Also, if you find you want to go higher than that that 12', in my city (Petaluma), that's not peak, on a typical sloped roof that's half-way up the slope. But if you don't want to go higher, that's even easier.

Your site drawings are for the planning department, and they generally need to show setback (I gave myself 6" more than I was required, just in case…), square footage, and height. Once you get the stamp from them you'll go over to the building department.

Sonoma County has some basic prescriptive framing numbers and details (PDF) you can probably use to flesh out your drawings. The American Wood Council maximum span calculator for joists and rafters is also something you may end up referring back to often, especially if you want a big door opening.

The things that weren't obvious to me were:


Spacing of the earthquake anchors that get cast into the foundation. Draw these out carefully on your forms before you pour; my concrete contractor said "we'll just toss 'em in there", but that gave me a little bit of a hiccup when some of them fell under studs. I had more of that than you will 'cause I had really close stud spacing. You have to have 'em every N feet, and then within some number of inches of the ends of sill plates.
Number and type of nails in all the joints. Remember to use galvanized nails everywhere there's treated wood (ie: your sill plates). You'll want to know how many nails in the top and bottom of each stud, and where you sister studs (ie: the corners), how far between nails vertically. For any sheathing, you'll want to know the spacing between nails on the edges, and along studs in the middle. I think I used 4" and 12". I should really scan my plans and put 'em online.
Speaking of galvanized, if you use an aluminum flashing layer under the treated sill plates to keep bugs from climbing your foundation, you'll want to put a layer of foam over that. Or used galvanized flashing (more expensive).
If you're going to do any sort of finish inside (ie: drywall), ask up-front about whether you'll need to be Title 24 compliant. Because of my insulation and such, I read up on the law, made myself a spreadsheet, and still had to submit plans to an online service and pay 'em $135 or so. The city would have been better off going with my calculations as that service found numbers that made my space more efficient than I thought it'd be, but oh well. And so far I'm totally happy with my LG Art Cool heat pump that I spec'd out for my Title 24 stuff. And if you do need Title 24 compliance, get your windows spec'd early, they can be freakin' expensive.
They make studs in 96" inch lengths, but also in like 93" or some such, which lets you use a 4×8 foot sheet of sheathing and have nail coverage on the top and sill plates.
It's much nicer to run Romex in the walls than THHN through conduit, which is an argument for drywall.

My wall assembly, which is total overkill and was based on "oh, South Florida uses this technique, and northern Alberta uses that technique, let's incorporate them both", is ferrocement siding over a strip of furring to give an air gap, house wrap, 5/8" firebreak exterior rated drywall, sheathing, studs with faced fiberglass insulation, and then interior 5/8" air gap. Anything within 5' of the property line had to be a 1 hour fire wall, I believe based on the staggered studs and the ANSI documents I lifted the wall assembly from that that's at least a 2 hour fire wall.

You might be able to use T111 (plywood or OSB with a grooved siding-like look on one side) for a single layer sheathing+exterior wall face for a non-habitable building. That'd make your wall assembly much easier.

I'll see if I can scan my plans, at least the parts I drew and own (ie: not the engineering drawings or the truss drawings, but those don't matter for you because your building will have a roof many tons lighter than my design load) and put 'em up.

Books I like: Taunton Press's Code Check, specifically Code Check Complete and their books for California, and Rex Cauldwell's


> Wiring A House


, you'll see Cauldwell cited a lot.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

ok…glad I could help on that zoning thing (it's all tied into a single office here but even there I felt like Mr. Douglas from Green Acres at times…I had to hold while he switched hats).

Ok…so you are starting out on the planning process.

You do have a very nice back yard. Do you plan on staying there for awhile? If not, then consider what a large shop will do to your resale value. If you plan on staying there for a bit, then consider what else you might someday wish you had used the space for (like a dog or kids). I'm not trying to tell you to down-size, just things to consider. You have the climate that would allow for a smaller shop if you incorporate doors for the occasional long rip operation (and yeah I know it's cold there today but I'll trade…down to zero F tonight here).


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## RonInOhio (Jul 23, 2010)

Pretty soon one is going to need a legal team to help them decipher all the building code rules. Geesh. Glad I didn't have to bother with that crap. Important to know your zoning regulations regardless.

I understand the importance of regulating and zoning . But some localities take it a little too far imo.

My advice would be to get your setback details, a permit if one is necessary . And build a shed.
Don't let the particulars drive you nuts. Yes, some preliminary research will save you some
head-aches and do-overs down the road.
But its not as difficult as some make it out to be.

Keep it simple, ask questions. Do some homework.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Ron…it sometimes comes down to somebody getting in and then changing the rules to prevent others from doing the same. And then there is the $$$ thing (building permit for our 2,700 sq ft house was $1,800). And not to totally downplay it, there are also safety/environmental issues involved (I've been in buildings where I wished they handed out hardhats at the door).

We were supposed to have moved to uniform building codes years ago but they require state/local adoption…e.g. some places are up to date on the electrical code, some are still on the last code or the version behind that.

IMHO many current code requirements are overkill (moving towards uniform I guess but hurricane anchors in Wisconsin???) But I guess uniform is better in that it allows contractors to work across state lines…if we ever get to that point of course.


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## Alongiron (Jan 10, 2011)

My workshop is 16×24 and is the best thing that I ever built. I did not really have any plans…just kinda built it as I went. I did make sure that I had a 100 amp service brought in, insulated it very well, and planned out the electrical boxes well. Take a look at it on my home page and feel free to ask me about anything. I probably spent $2500 dollars doing it myself and could not be more happy with it. Life is to short…go for it!


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Wow, that's a big help, Dan! Thanks! I still don't have a good feel for exactly how nice the walls will be. It's tempting to plan to make them be fully insulated with drywall and the like, but that would be a lot more work. On the flipside, having a workshop that could be efficiently heated would be nice. Absolutely not a requirement given the local climate (daytime temperatures rarely drop into the 40's), but nice.

Regarding your specific points, I have a few questions:


Why does galvanization go with treated wood? Is the assumption just that wood that is treated will be exposed to water, and thus nongalvanized nails would rust?


Likewise, why the foam for an aluminum sill flashing-to keep the aluminum from contacting the wood? As I understand it, aluminum shouldn't be vulnerable to water damage, anyway…


If I understand your 93" stud statement correctly, the idea is that the 4'x8' sheet would go over the studs and the sill/top plates all in one go?

I'd love to see your plans. This is one of those things where once I see a proper example I'll have a much better understanding of everything, I think.

teejk: this is definitely a "starter home", so I expect I'll move on eventually. But I don't have any plans to do so; I'm quite happy to stay here until some external pressure comes up, and in the meantime I'm enjoying making improvements. I expect that a nice workshop/studio would be an asset to the house anyway. It might not improve the sale price of the home as much as I'd spend on building it, but I'll be getting use out of the workshop myself, plus the experience of building it.

There's plenty of space in the back yard that isn't currently "used", as I see it. One entire side is basically gone to the weeds (and/or covered by the existing shed); that's where I'd site the workshop. The lawn, most of the back edge of the lot, and the nicer side would all be left intact, so I don't think the backyard would feel crowded. I've taken care of dogs here and they have enough room to chase balls and so on.

RonInOhio: that's exactly what I'm doing, and you all are being amazingly helpful! I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again: this is a great community. 

Alongiron: that's a nice workshop! And knowing the size is helpful-it looks like 16×24 gave you plenty of room to set everything out so it's not cluttered and you still have room to work on projects. Regarding the workshop, did you pour the slab yourself? My research on concrete slabs seems to indicate that you could easily spend $2500 just on the slab itself…my thinking at the moment is that I'd do all the excavating and laying out the rebar and so on, and hire help only for the actual concrete pouring.


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## toddbeaulieu (Mar 5, 2010)

A few random, misc comments, based on my experience.

I built a shed and found it to be frustrating getting anything out of the town beforehand. I couldn't even get a "hot list" of what the inspector would be looking for no. They could only answer specific questions. There was absolutely no available material for the non-pro. You either know it, or you don't.

Luckily, my small shed was under the radar of the inspector. They came to inspect it.

I have an attached 22×22 post and beam barn that I've dumped HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of hours into over the past three years. That is my still evolving workshop. When I started it was the most inhospitable work environment. My Wife came out last weekend and said "Wow … it's warmer out here than in the house!".

I installed 2×6 framing between the posts/beam structure. New wiring, INSULATION and rough sawn 12" pine boards for inner walls. The loft is not insulated, but I through two layers of 2" rigid foam down on the floors up there until I'm ready (read: cash flow) to renovate upstairs. I think wood is more appropriate for a shed/workshop than drywall. I can hang anything I want anywhere! Studs? Who needs 'em when you're screwing into 5/4 ship-lapped boards?

I could manage the shed on my own, but the barn was a different story. That required considerable consultation from a kick-butt neighbor that is super smart and savvy to the code, as well as books and online forums.

Good luck.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Okay, my scanner and I weren't getting along, but here are some low res but hopefully readable scans of my workshop plans, with some notes.

The reason for galvanized metal touching the treated wood has to do with electrolysis. Apparently the acid in the wood sets up many metals as one node of a battery, especially since the thing on the other side of that aluminum is the base of the concrete, and the electric current dissolves the metal in no time.

And, yes, the 93" (or whatever size it ends up being) is exactly that: What you'd cut your 96" studs down to so you could hit the top and bottom with the sheathing. You can buy 10' plywood, but it's more expensive.

On the slab, note that my slab has a lot of concrete in it because of those grade beam thickened edges. I know I paid $600 for a contractor and his assistant to do the pour, another $350-500 for the concrete pump and operator, and circa $1400 for the concrete delivered, two truckloads (one full load and like a yard and a half).


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I forgot that you guys have to deal with termites as well as earthquakes so maybe this is N/A to you.

My shop is 2×6 "ladder framed" panels (treated lumber bottom plate, standard lumber for the top plate, vertical ends and horizontal members 2' on center. You can get standard insulation to fill the cavity and they bang together quickly.

The "stud" length to build an 8 foot wall is 92 5/8" so when you add the top and bottom plates you theoretically get to 95 5/8". 3/8" sounds like a lot of gap to get to 8' but it will most likely not be that big (bottom and top plates are rarely exactly 1 1/2" thick) and the shortness let's you swing a panel into an existing floor/ceiling structure.

Whatever you do, plan your framing to ensure you do not exceed standard lengths/widths of finishing materials. You can always cut, but you'll kick yourself if you goof up and have to add 1-3" strips of siding or drywall to finish.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Expanding on Teejk's comment: I used some thicker (I forget the exact dimension) treated lumber for my sill plate, so that my wall sheathing has an inch or so of treated lumber clear of the aluminum flashing bug shield. The 4×8 sheathing is aligned to the top of the first top plate, not the bottom of the sill plate.

And I used doubled top-plates, made the junctions at the corners easier, and let me get away with shorter lumber (stagger the joints). I forget all the details, I think I was going to try to do without, found some code which strongly suggested it, and figured that was easier than trying to convince the building inspector it was okay because my trusses all landed directly on studs.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the plans, Dan! It's very helpful to see the kinds of things I'll be asked to produce. I think I could probably do all of this in a 3D modeling program so I'd be easily able to generate different views, not to mention plan out board sizes, quantity of cement, etc. I don't really have a feel for how to go about designing plans for the actual workshop yet (i.e. which boards go where, how to make certain the roof is properly supported, etc.) but I guess that's what reading the literature is for.

It does sound like it'd be nice to have the interior walls be 1×12s or something similar so you could just hang your cabinets, etc. wherever you want without worrying about finding studs. Of course that'd have implications for fire worthiness, cost, and presumably insulation to a degree.

And yeah, it definitely sounds like a good idea to make certain that as much as possible the components won't have to be re-sized after purchase. Putting up a single 4'x8' sheet of drywall or plywood or the like is easy; cutting a specifically-sized strip off of a sheet so you can patch a hole is much less pleasant.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I started out trying to draw this in various different CAD programs, always came back to graph paper and a pencil.

For hanging stuff, I put up a french cleat around the top of my shop. Just ripped an angle on a bunch of boards (actually used some of the boards that made up the pallet my siding was delivered on) and fixed it up all the way around. When I need to hang something I cut a piece of wood at an angle, screw my cabinet or shelf or whatever to it, and slip it over the cleat rail.

And, yeah: 16" or 24" centers, make your parts come out even, if you have to accumulate error put it on one side or the other (ie: a mistake we made was putting error in the middle which meant having to rip a sheet of 4×8 ply down the middle, and then a slightly bigger than 24" piece of plywood to fill the gap; had we put it on one end we'd have only had to make one rip).


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

team turpin, do you have more info on that under-table router surround? I'm planning a similar setup, just to the left of my left table saw wing, with a router lift. It will mount on my fence rails. I have a set of legs on the fence rails to hold the weight.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I downloaded SketchUp and gave it a shot. So far I appreciate its snap-to-line and measurement abilities, but I really miss the ability to just grab a vertex in a mesh and move it around like I can in Blender.

Anyway, made a basic map of the layout of the back yard, along with a hypothetical workshop:










The 16'x16' box is the sun room, basically the furthest extent of the house into the yard area. I could make the workshop longer, but then it starts getting really close to the house. The code calls for a minimum separation of 5' between the house and "accessory buildings", so 9' should be safe. I could also make the shop wider (e.g. 24'x16'), but that starts cutting into the lawn a bit much, I think, and it's not clear I'd need _that_ much room.

I ordered a copy of How to Build Small Barns & Outbuildings, since it had good reviews, and it arrived today. It actually has plans for a 24'x16' workshop, but the walls are made of concrete blocks, and I don't think that'd be especially wise here in earthquake country. Alas! I'm sure I'll get plenty of mileage out of the book anyway; there's a lot of basic knowledge gaps that I need to fill in.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

9' is a totally reasonable separation, but put up some story sticks and see. If those drawings for the 24×16 workshop are studs on 16" centers, you could probably drop 16" fairly easily, end up with something that was 22'8", and.,.

Well, let's just say that in the context of being inside the workshop, you'll never say "wow, I wish this workshop were just a little smaller".

And on your drawing, you may want to label things, like the house, and more specifically, where the electrical service comes into the house and how you're going to get that electrical service to the shop, including, if you're going with buried electrical, what sidewalks/patios you're going to have to cut slots in, and what gas and sewer lines you'll have to avoid. And if you're going with overhead electrical (go with buried, really), what trees you need to work around.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I just realized that I got my dimensions mentally flipped on the size of the shed. The map is accurate, but for some reason I thought it was wider than it was long (i.e. 20'x16' instead of 16'x20'). If I were to make it wider, it'd be 20'x20', not 24'x16'. And you're right, I could drop 16" off of a dimension.

Good call on the labels, electrical, and sidewalks; that diagram certainly isn't done. For reference, the right-hand side of the house has the garage, which is where the electricity hooks in. There's a decent-sized slab that'd need to be cut through to lay new buried line, unfortunately.

I guess I'd better work on finding out where buried utility lines are…


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## toddbeaulieu (Mar 5, 2010)

"I guess I'd better work on finding out where buried utility lines are…"

This was a bit of a challenge for me. I don't know if you have the same facility as I have, but Dig Safe's website clearly spells out that they don't cater to homeowners who simply want to learn the lay of their land … utility-wise. They wanted me to mark where I wanted to dig and would then tell me if that was ok or not (and mark the utilities in that general area). In the end I was able to not mark anything and they did indeed come and mark all my utilities, even on opposite sides of the yard. Knowing where things are is somewhat helpful!

The gas guy apparently had no sense of humor, because he could have placed a flag in the wheel barrow filled with dirt sitting over the line. I had started before deciding to call. I was digging by hand, which is legal anyway.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

You can take a good guess on utilities: Find your meters, at a first guess assume that any buried utilities go pretty much straight out to the sidewalk, dodging any runs underneath the house or original structures. I did find a sewer line that nobody marked that I still don't know who it ties to, but I dug my trenches by hand.

But, yeah, take a good guess, mark out what you'd like to have happen, call USA-NORTH, and let them take their best guess too.

Don't fear cutting slabs: I rented a walk-behind concrete saw. Wasn't cheap, I think it cost me $140 or so for three hours ($90 rental time, $35 fee for blade usage), but 40 minutes later I had all the lines scored out. The one thing I should have done is cross-scored the bits I was going to lift out more; don't think you're going to lift out big pieces of slab intact and put 'em back later.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

dunno about California but here we have "diggers hotline". the utilities come out, find and mark their lines. they need a few days notice. it's FREE. when you dig and they goofed, they fix it. dig without calling them, YOU pay (and the fees are "stiff"...the old $2,000 hammer story).


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Just 'cause I wasn't completely clear in that last message, the "digger's hotline" that teejk mentions is, for Northern California (and a number of other places), http://www.usanorth.org/


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Yeah, I googled "Dig Safe California" and turned up a directory listing that had how to find the corresponding hotline for your state, which in turn directed me to USA North. And yeah, they don't charge. They probably figure, if they charge then people won't pay them and just dig anyway, and then they have broken utility lines on their hands, which is not only expensive but also dangerous.

I note they want you to start digging within a month of laying out the lines, but I can't imagine how that would make a difference. Oh well.

Later today I'll measure and map out the garage including the breaker box, at which point I'll have a pretty good idea of how the lines would need to run. I think I can just run a conduit along the garage wall, and don't need to go underground until I get to the back. Heck, maybe the conduit could run along the sun room too, in which case the only trench needed would be between there and the workshop. That'd save a lot of digging and concrete-cutting.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

In my state they should send someone to check your property within a week. If they goof they pay. There is no charge. I believe the utility companies pay for this service so they are not accidently disconnected. You have to dig within 2 weeks or they are released from the liability. I called twice and the phone company never showed. I talked to a repairman on the road in front of my house about this. He went ballistic. He said they took this work from the Phone company employees and outsourced it to a private concern. They don't show up and just run a neww line if they have to take the hit. They make money doing this. They don't care about your service. He said call a supervisor RIGHT NOW!!


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

derakon…the "no charge" is actually driven from the utility side…you clip a cable or wire in your yard, you might take out several neighbors as well (I'd advise you to skip the block party for a few years if that happens). And hard as it is to believe, they are worried about your safety too! So they provide the service to try to avoid the whole "lose-lose" problem.

I don't know about today but a few years ago I think the cost of patching a fiber optic cable was $1,000 or more.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I was at the local lumber yard one day and heard a horror story about a man that was replacing a fence post for his privacy fence. The utility easement was behind the back yard between the lots. He pulled the old post and was cleaning the hole with some hand type post hole diggers when he clipped the fiber optic bundle. $3,000!! At least that is what he told them. That was about 10 or more years ago.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

grandpa…when I said $1,000 for a fiber optic patch I was thinking about a much higher number but erred on the low side lest I got on more ignore lists.

call before you dig" rules might actually be mandated. I've had to call them several times as I finished out the new house…they show up in a few days…and quite frankly I don't feel bad because they ran the most serpentine underground line I have ever seen (and yes I paid dearly by the foot for the initial installation) so calling them I call a "rebate". They use a "wand" and can locate lines within a very narrow band. Marking paint (probably explains the 30 day rule mentioned above) and a few flags, 15 minutes later they are gone and any mistakes become their problem.

not related to underground but a friend works for an electrical utility…an outage was reported and a crew was dispatched…lack of patience led the homeowner to close the pole gate switch (most people don't know what they are nor should they) using his aluminum pool cleaning pole…RIP…


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah, do not feel at all sorry about calling the USA North people. Multiple times, if necessary. This is what they do, and everyone involved would much rather you call and follow procedure than say "Just this once it doesn't really matter…"

Because the world is littered with the remnants of the disasters that happened when well intentioned people thought they were being more efficient in saying "just this once it doesn't really matter…". 99.9% you get away with it, but…


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I went back and updated the map a bit. Some further thoughts:


It seems like I ought to be able to run power from the breaker box along the outside of the garage, and the outside of the sun room, and only go underground for the 9' run to the workshop. Is that realistic? If not, I'll have to cut through a rather sizable concrete slab that's to the right of the sun room. 
On that note, the only concrete between the back face of the sun room and the workshop site is a 4'-wide sidewalk. Would it be remotely possible to dig out the trench under the sidewalk from the sides, thus avoiding having to cut the sidewalk? I imagine digging would be rather tricky, as would filling back in afterwards, so this may not be reasonable.
Nine feet seems a lot shorter "in person" than it looked on the map.  I planted a stake at the bottom-left corner of where the workshop would be and took a couple photos. It should still be workable but there'll be a bit of a "tunnel" effect for a bit where the sidewalk passes between the workshop and the sun room.

Dan, I'm guessing the "story sticks" you've been talking about were just thin 8' or 10' boards for marking the rough dimensions of a building? The only definition I could find for "story stick" was a piece of guide wood to help you make consistent cuts, but that doesn't really seem to make sense here.

I'll be giving USA North a call today. It'll probably take me the better part of a month just to clear the area for excavation, since I need to take down the old shed (and find room for the boards I'm storing in it!), but I don't think that'll be a huge issue, especially if, as I hope, there isn't much of anything in the way of utility lines to worry about. Better safe than sorry of course!


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

interesting discussion (especially that "jetting", which is described as "messy"):

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/404678-conduit-under-slabs.html

local code will prevail and your earthquakes may dictate your options.

I would personally try anything to avoid cutting the slab…if it doesn't look like a "patch" when you finish it, I think it's only a matter of time before it does.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah, in this context by "story stick" I mean a bunch of long 2×4s used to provide an outline of the building so that you can better experience what the building's impact on the site will be. That is probably not the right term, I know a bunch of other contexts and meanings for the phrase, but it's the term my contractor backyard neighbor used to describe it when he said "yeah, I was wondering why those turned up in your yard…".


I don't remember code for outside on the side of the building conduit off the top of my head, but I think you can figure out which kind of conduit to run along the outside of the house if you want to avoid burying it.


There are depth restrictions about running buried lines too shallow, but to run irrigation lines I have dug holes on either side of the concrete, put a hose fitting on the end of a pipe, and pushed the pipe through the dirt while the water dug away the holes. This is a bit challenging if, like me, you live at the bottom of a hill and the groundwater isn't all that deep…


And, yes, 9' is not very wide… And you'd be amazed at what a difference 2' can make in building feel…


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Bleh, called USA North and the requirement apparently is that digging start within 14 days of the utility companies coming out to mark the lines! I won't be ready to dig until I clear the surface obstructions anyway; that's gonna take long enough that basically I can't find out what the obstructions are until I've already committed a lot of effort. I was hoping to plan out basically everything in advance of starting the work so there wouldn't be any surprises partway through, but I guess that's sunk. Unless, I guess, I have them come out, do a very small amount of digging, and then go back to planning again…though that seems a bit against the spirit of the thing. I have to wonder why they have that rule in the first place.

Thanks for the advice about "jetting" a tunnel through. Seems like it ought to be worth a shot; worst case it doesn't work and I have to cut the pavement anyway. Fortunately I live on a hill so I shouldn't have any trouble with running into groundwater.

I guess I should stop by Home Depot and pick up some 2×6's-I'll need them anyway for setting up the foundation pour, eventually. Though pretty soon I suspect I'm going to start running into problems with where to store all the materials I own / am buying-the old shed is where I've been keeping my boards, and it's gonna get torn down!


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

On USA North: You know where the utilities enter the house, right? You're looking for water, sewer, gas and electric.


Electric is probably overhead. You can see where that comes from the pole to the mast on the house, and down to your main panel.
Gas will have an external meter at the side of the house. In my case it's just around the back corner, and the gas line runs along the back wall 'til it gets past the foundation, then runs straight out to the street.
Water will likely run from the meter, embedded in an access hatch in the sidewalk that you can easily find, and a shut-off by the foundation where it goes into the house.
Sewer often runs under the driveway. If you have little metal round access ports in your driveway, look there. The sewer will run through the foundation into your crawl space, so you can find the other side of it under the house.

At that point you pretty much know where everything is. And even with my super heavy building I didn't have to go more than 24" down for my foundation, most major utilities are deeper than that. And if you dig by hand you'll be pretty safe on finding things before you damage them anyway.

And, yeah, we rented a storage unit to put my wood stash in during the build.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Derakon…I think the 14 day requirement is because they primarily use marking paint. Around here it lasts forever but if you are mowing lawn, you can see their point. Rest assured that if your backyard is clear on day one, it will be clear on day fifteen but then again they will use day fourteen as the limit if they goofed.

Utilities are generally granted easements across anybody's property to service other properties…be careful in assuming that your service stops at your meters.

Anyway, you have a lot of work to do before they come out and you seem to know where your shop is going to sit (it's gonna be a beauty BTW and looks like you'll still have a nice backyard where you want to put it)...don't let the utility tail wag the shop dog.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I went and picked up some 8' 2×6s on the way home so I could mark out the perimeter of the slab…at which point I realized that something had gone horribly awry when I was measuring the yard. Somehow I thought it was 9' shorter than it actually was! So a 20'x16' slab would actually be a full 18' away from the house, and I could upsize it to 24'x16' and still not feel crowded. I updated my yard map to suit.

I do find it entertaining that functionally I'd be putting a two-car garage in the back yard, where there's no vehicle access. Oh well!

My neighbor has done extensive renovations to his house and yard, and he recommended a guy he'd worked with in the past. Said guy came out and looked at the site and said $2880 to excavate, set up, and pour, which actually seems like a pretty dang good price to me-the concrete alone would be a decent portion of that. And if I want to dig down 6-8" to make room for the slab on my own, well, that's a lot of earthmoving…so I'm seriously considering just throwing money at that problem. But as you said, teejk, there's no telling if there might be a major utility line under my property, so I won't be doing any digging until I've cleared things with the utilities.


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## OldBoatMan (Sep 29, 2011)

Your first step should be to check your local building codes. Try making an appointment with an inspector and explain what you would like to do. Most inspectors will give you a few pointers about permit requirements, neighborhood notification requirements, foundation requirements and out building size restrictions, set-back requirements and percent coverage restrictions.

You might specifically ask whether you need a permit from city or county planning and zoning commissions.

You might also take a look through your abstract to see if there are any deed restrictions affecting your plans.

Your local big box lumber store may sell "kits" that include plans and materials. The plans will help you through the the permitting process. Be careful in selecting plans. If you decide that you need 2×6 exterior walls for insulation purposes, be sure that the plan you purchase is designed for 2×6 studs and printed showing 2×6 construction.

The biggest decisions you will have to make and that require thought about your specific location are insulation, heating, cooling, electrical service, gas service and plumbing.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

you are into the "loop" phase!

I don't know your local code what with earthquakes and such. Generally though once the slab is ready for pour, dig and set a scrap of pvc pipe at a 45 angle for water line at the form if you think you might want it someday (they'll pour and finish around it)...beats hacking into the slab at a later date…you'll have a "tube" from inside to outside.

Electric you can do the same but you'll most likely be using pvc sweeps and LB's on both sides of the building and can pretty much set it wherever you decide later without needing to come through the slab.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

If you've already committed to the 9' gap there and then discovered an extra 9', maybe give yourself an extra 4' and go 24'x16'?

I didn't run a sewer/water conduit 'cause my town has a $16k impact fee for an inlaw unit that I was trying to avoid…

And, yeah $2880 with excavation for the slab sounds like a deal.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Dan…I was suggesting the PVC pipe solely as a means of preserving an entrance hole for future use. If it never gets used, at least it's there. Probably a piece of 3 or 4" sch 40, maybe 3' long. Set at an angle (top on the inside) leaving maybe 6" above the finished floor. if and when he wants it, will require a little digging to find the outside.


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## WoodTom (Jan 19, 2013)

If you have the $, and have the room in the yard build a dedicated "Shed". And that is what you want to call it, a shed, won't fall under guidlines for power, water, insulation ect. Find out how big you can build it and build it that size. You will always want more room down the road. I built this:










12×25, 12' tall with 12' x12' overhang and I wish I had a finishing room. Before I built it I asked the same questions you did and in the end I decided that I wanted to remove the work area from the house because of; saw dust, fumes, saw dust, noise, saw dust, dragging chips and shavings in for the cat to eat (and wife to glare over), saw dust and lasr but not least; saw dust. If you can, build it and they will come….in the house saw dust free!


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

teejk, yeah, my reluctance to do that is a big part of why I disagree with WoodTom's "call it a shed" suggestion: I should have been better early-on about communicating with the city and figuring out just how far I could go without triggering the impact fees.

If you know ahead of time how far that is then, yes, definitely lay out what you might need later for water and sewer.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Given the size limitations on unpermitted buildings (120 square feet, "shed" or no), there's simply no way I can pretend that the workshop I actually want to build doesn't require me to go through the permitting process. That said, your "shed" looks quite nice, WoodTom.  And yeah, not tracking sawdust into the house all the time will be a definite plus.

Putting a pipe through for ease of access is definitely a possible idea. It's not like it'd get in the way if it just ended inside the wall.

Regarding that $2880 guy, I've come to realize he's almost certainly unlicensed. I'll be soliciting quotes from other contractors who are more on the up-and-up; if nothing else they'd probably have a lot more experience working with the government inspectors!


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Derakon…the pipe will certainly not be in the way (cut it flush with the floor if you want to). If you know a plumber he might have a scrap piece he'll give you. There might be a day where you'll be glad you thought ahead (save the cost of renting a jackhammer and patching the floor). Set it at an angle because future water will likely use a coil of 1" continuous plastic tubing and it will need a "sweep" to get into the building. Length of the pipe will be dictated by how far you have to bury the water line.

As for the permit process, realize municipalities are scratching for $$$$. Go "cowboy" on them and get caught and you will not like the result (and because you could have done it right and didn't, you essentially are at their mercy). A real tough guy might even insist you remove the structure. My last house (I was the 4th owner) was a nightmare to sell because of things done before I bought it. Unfortunately enforcement became a priority for the town and I was left holding the bag.


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## WoodTom (Jan 19, 2013)

Oh don't get me wrong, it was permitted and inspected (5 times, Florida Wind codes), I even had to have a set of plans drawn up and signed off by an engineer ($350.00) and stamped. The building is rated and inspected for 125 mph winds. I called it a shed because all that was required for a shed was the building. Of course I added all the rest after the finals and the City has no problem with that. It was the initial added expense and engineering and inspections that calling it a shed avoided. I doesn't fall under any other codes; electrical, insulation, lighting, HVAC and so forth. Each one would have it own set of rules and engineering. I was able to customize everything else how I wanted it set up, not the way my City's building code said that I had to. After slab pre-pour inspection the chase tubes just happened to show up where the sole plates would be! imagine that! Left the about 2" below finished floor height and opened them up after final inspection. What? Cable, phone, water, sewer and 4" tube for 200amps? Gee how did they get there? But anyway you build yours, I definately would go through all the permitting process's required, any other way is just not worth it. As teejk said, don't get left holding the bag on an un-permitted/inspected building. Besides you might want to think about insurance once you have totaled up all expenses, including tools. I can and have insurance because it was planned, permitted and inspected. It's just that I carry a small rider for the building and contents. The shed business is just to avoid all the nonsense that your City rules will want you to do. Another thing is that (at least in my area) calling your project a workshop or shop might raise an eyebrow and invoke a question of zoning; a shop in a residential area? So anyway you look at it build it proper, but ask about the rules regarding building a"Shed" verses a "Workshop", you might be suprised…...
Just sayin….


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I've contacted USA North and have a ticket with them, so within the next few days the utility companies will be stopping by to mark where I have to be careful when digging. I've also planted flags in the yard to mark out the slab perimeter and the electrical trench. In the process I discovered that there's an awful lot of rock fill in the area I'll be digging out. Probably not re-usable as gravel bedding for the slab (the rocks are too big), but it should at least be comparatively easy to remove.

I've also been reading through that book I mentioned, How to Build Small Barns & Outbuildings. It's been very helpful for filling in holes in what I know. It's also helped hammer in some sense of scale-for example, I can't exactly expect to be raising the roof framework on my own! I might possibly be able to raise the wall segments on my own if I do them in segments, i.e. make an 8'-long bit of wall, raise it, prop it in place, raise another bit of wall, tie it to the first, prop it, etc. But doing a 16' or 24'-long wall in one go is also out of the question.

Let's assume a 16'x24' workshop, with 8'-high walls rising to 10' in the middle (so a rise of 2' over 8' of horizontal, i.e. a 25% grade). The limit on height for outbuildings here is 12', so that gives me plenty of leeway code-wise; the wall height should also be convenient to work with, and the grade on the roof isn't so excessive as to be unpleasant to work on. I could get more volume by building to 12' with 10' walls and a gambreled roof, but that seems like significantly more effort and materials for relatively little usable space gain.

I'm going to want windows on the southern wall (the wall with the door) and on the western wall (facing the yard). Opening these would allow for a good crossbreeze for ventilation. I'd also like to have a (not necessarily openable) skylight but I don't know how feasible / expensive that would be. I generally prefer natural lighting whenever possible and a skylight would be the only way to get morning sun into the building, because the eastern side is too close to the fence for normal windows to accomplish much.

The foundation slab, assuming I'm reading Pacifica's "You Can Do It" pamphlet correctly, needs to have a 6" thick foundation wall with a 12" wide footing which has to go 12" below undisturbed ground, i.e. a 12"-deep trench. I'm not entirely certain how that changes since I'm using a concrete slab instead of a perimeter wall-seems like I ought to be able to just go with 4" thick and a 12"-deep wall, but it doesn't say. In any case, that's gonna be a lot of digging, but (as long as it doesn't keep raining) I'm sure I can handle it.

The foundation itself should be a layer of 6mil plastic, a layer of gravel, and then the slab. Not too complicated; in any event I'll be hiring contractors for the actual pour so all that I need to worry about implementation-wise is ensuring that the excavation is the right depth.

16" spacing between studs seems reasonable. I don't recall reading anywhere what the frequency of anchor bolts should be, but as I understand it, the main thing to watch out for is that the bolts don't land where a stud should be. I think I can leave the rafters at 24" spacing; it'll make the building more open and the ceiling space more usable. It's not like the roof will have to take heavy loads; all we have around here is rain and fog.

Any advice for drawing up plans? Should I do everything in SketchUp? I'm more used to Blender but it's probably less suited to architectural drawings. Or should I try to find premade plans that fit my needs? I'm a little leery of buying plans sight-unseen, and it's not clear to me what the difference is between a $20 set of plans and a $200 set. I'll want to have the plans done and approved before the pour, of course, so that the placement of the anchor bolts is correct.

What about the electrical trench? Should I just assume that the electrical cable will poke through the wall at some point and wiring can be laid out once the house is done? Or should it go through the slab?


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

3 people had no problem putting up my 19' walls, even with the 12" stud spacing. The big thing with putting up walls is that you want at least two people: one to hold the wall, the other to tack the bracing home. Doing it yourself is a pain. Probably doable, but worth asking someone for help.

Here's a guy quoting the 2006 IRC on anchor bolt spacing, less than 6' on centers, no more than 12" from the ends of any sill plate. In practice: 4' spacing, 6" from the ends. Note that this is over and above any required earthquake anchors (you may not need any, I did).

A good portion of your slab may want to be above grade. I dug my 18" wide 2' deep foundation trenches myself, so I scoff at your 12"x12" excavation.

I like your windows, and if you don't have to get Title 24 compliance, and you can almost always find a cheap skylight at your local reclaimed building parts place.
Yes on 24" spacing on your rafters.

If you want more of a slope on your roof, double-check your height limits: In my town, the height of a simple peaked roof is calculated as midway between the eaves and the peak (different for other shaped roofs).

If you are going to need Title 24 compliance, put a layer of foam under your slab for insulation. That'll do wonders for your score.

And I'd just draw it with pencil on graph paper.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

You guys have some funny rules! My 56'x30' shop used engineered trusses 8' OC! Mine is steel clad exterior and interior hence horizontal "ladder framing" to allow for fasteners 24" OC (not 16"). It was built in 8' panels so easy for 2 guys.

I have 10' walls with a 4/12 pitch (minimum for shingles I think) so I think that's out of the question for you on a 16' wide building with a 12' limit at the ridge (4" rise for every 12" run…16' means 8' to center which means 32" higher at the ridge excluding height above grade on your floor and thickness of your roofing). So you are probably stuck with 8' walls. 9' would seem to work but you'll waste a lot of material doing it.

I have a "floating slab" floor with a very shallow footing even in the "land of frost" (we're celebrating today because it got to 15F).

You are correct on spacing of the "J-bolts". Critical to place them in the pour where you can put a washer and nut on them…not possible if a vertical member is there!

Electrical here is usually done with LB's on the sidewall…no need to plan ahead for it in your pour.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

teejk has a point re roof slope: make it steep enough that you don't have wicking back up underneath the shingles. 2' over 8' is a 3 in 12 roof, if you need to get to 4 in 12 you'd need to go 2'8". Also, remember that you want the siding 8" off grade, so IMHO it doesn't make sense to put the sills any lower than 8" up.

<a href="http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el807.pdf">This Structural Board Association "understanding OSB" guide says ¾" OSB can be used across a 4' span, if you want wider spaced rafters. That's a Canadian publication, so you'd want to verify those numbers for California and the roof loading you're intending to use, but if that more open ceiling appeals, we're likely to have a much lower roof loading than the Hosers do (no snow).


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm all for making the roofing as easy to install as possible, so long of course as it's still structurally sound. If I can get away with 4' rafters, then all the better.

I'll be speaking with the "building department" tomorrow (Pacifica has an engineer that they share part-time with other local cities, who comprises the entirety of said department), so I'm compiling a list of questions to ask. Currently:


Generally asking about earthquake safety
Verify anchor bolt placement-what you said about 4', 6" from edge makes sense, Dan, but better to verify.
Check on rafter spacing requirements / load requirements.
Check on roof grade requirements, as well as where the "top" and "bottom" of the building (for measuring maximum height) are marked.
Verify slab requirements-I'm assuming at the moment that a 4" slab that has a 12"-wide, 12"-deep perimeter is sufficient, but best to be certain.

Guess I'd better start making those building plans, too.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Point out that you're going to wire the space. If you run Romex and close the walls, will you need to be Title 24 compliant? Can you get away without that if you run conduit?

Really, Title 24 is the biggie. Roof loading and rafter spacing you can figure out yourself or from AWC or similar publications. The other questions are all good, but if you have to make it energy efficient it changes a lot of things.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

pretty good checklist Derakon…start there and post back!


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

I love talking with friendly knowledgeable people. The Pacifica building department is one such.  So, I got some answers!

1) Earthquake safety: this just boils down to having a 12"-thick foundation wall. The slab itself needs to be 6" above grade, so since I want a 4" slab, I have to dig a 10"-deep trench around the perimeter. I'll also need to take off the top 2" or so of the rest of the area to make room for the plastic/sand/gravel that will lie under the concrete.

Additionally, there needs to be rebar top and bottom in the trench, but I was planning on that anyway.

2) Anchor bolts are as Dan said-4' apart, 6" from the ends.

3) I asked about the rafters. He thought that going 4' apart with OSB or some other structural siding might work, but it'd probably be more failure-prone than having more closely-spaced rafters, so we'd be sacrificing the longevity of the structure.

His suggestion, if I wanted to have more usable ceiling space, was to have a stronger ridge beam that the rafters would connect to, and then to eliminate the ceiling joists. That way I could have a vaulted ceiling-completely open. But he admitted that the ridge beam might be tricky to set up, and it might require a central post to support the ceiling. I think this is worth investigating, though-if I can eliminate the ceiling joists then it doesn't matter how closely-spaced the rafters are since they won't be taking up any "usable" space.

Additionally he suggested speccing the sill plates as if they were a second story so they could support a floor-thus enabling a potential loft space. I'm not certain how usable that would be in practice, but it's something I can mock up in the plans and think about. I think I'm more likely to be interested in ceiling cabinets that either would slide down or could be reached with a ladder.

4) Title 24 requirements only kick in if I want the building to be climate-controlled, i.e. heated (no need for air conditioning where I live). As long as I don't add a heater, I can make the structure as (un)insulated and (in)efficient as I like and they won't care. In the interests of simplifying my life, I'll settle for just putting a coat on if I get cold. This is also something that I can work on after the fact-I can start with unfinished interior walls, and add insulation and drywall later if I decide I want it.

5) I'm required to have at least one 36"-wide door as an emergency exit, and I can go as wide as 48" before needing to switch to double doors.

6) For electrical supply, I should add a sub-panel that feeds off the main panel. Apparently the smallest panels you can get are 60 amps. I'll need to check what my main is capable of handling. This is all stuff that I don't really know much about and that I'm leery of experimenting with on my own, so likely I'll just hire a contractor here.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Awesome!

#1&2: Yay for prescriptive code making it easy for ya!

#3: I've seen enough buildings with sagging roof-lines that I kinda like ceiling joists to keep the walls from spreading and the center of the roof from sagging. With a ridge beam maybe you could get away with joists every 4' and rafters every 2'? And ceiling joists can be useful for attaching storage options…

#4: You win! They made me do it because I insulated, even though I planned on not having heating.

#5: I did a sliding door and went big and wide, but a 48' door sounds big enough to get projects in and out, while being easier to lock.

#6: The drop to your house is probably 200A. Your panel could be as low as 60A. Go look at the breakers or fuses on the input feed and see!

I also wanted to mention: I forget where the numbers kick-in, I think it's a combination of number of circuits and current feed to the sub-panel, but they did for me and I needed a cut-off for the feed at my shop, too. Not just at my main breaker panel end. The cheapest way for me to do this was to just have 100A breakers on both ends: In my main panel, feeding the cable that runs through buried conduit to my shop, and at my shop panel, the cable feeds backwards in to the breakers there.

And don't fear the electrical. I mean, hire a contractor if you want to (I did to manage the new main panel in my house, primarily because I wanted someone experienced to interface with PG&E), but electrical isn't that hard to do yourself. The only real surprise I had when researching this was just how freakin' hard the circuit breaker bolts are supposed to be tightened down, I used a torque wrench and ran them all the way to spec. But, really, between Code Complete and the Rex Cauldwell book you can look at how to run it, and do so.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks for the electrical advice, Dan. I suspect a lot of my nervousness about the electrical system comes from not really understanding circuits and what can kill you. Fortunately I can put this off until later; heck, it sounds like the electrical system doesn't even have to be started until after everything else is done. So I can focus on learning what I need about construction techniques, and worry about learning about electrical utilities later.

Regarding the roof, it does seem like a 24' ridge beam that's rigid enough to not need support in the middle would be a serious chunk of wood, doesn't it? I really would like to have a vaulted ceiling if possible, though; I'm a tall guy, and my house doesn't have any really open space where I can stretch out without running into the ceiling.

I found out about Glulam, which claims to be usable as an engineered ridge beam and can be "100 feet and longer"-no word on how long it can be without having support in the middle though. Nor on how expensive it'd be, but a forum post elsewhere says that steel would be cheaper! So perhaps a steel I-beam would do the trick. In either case I'd surely need a crane to lift it into place…which is a good indication of why people usually don't go for vaulted ceilings, I guess. Hmm.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

So pulling numbers completely out of my butt: Let's say your roof is 10 lbs/sq.ft. dead load, and because you're in Northern California you're gonna completely blow off the live load (this is not an unreasonable number for dead load, you might have to add something in for live load for wind, because I did the living roof these numbers are so ridiculously low for me that I can't even consider 'em).

You're essentially supporting half the roof span in the center, so that's 8', which means every foot of that roof beam is going to have to support 80 lbs.

I'm too lazy to go calculate the whole modulus of elasticity thing by hand from the American Wood Council span tables, so I just go to the American Wood Council Maximum Span Calculator, select Southern Doug Fir "select structural", l/240 deflection limits, 2x12. Because the calculator doesn't go high enough to give me 80 lbs/sq.ft dead load (ie: joists at 12" spacing with a floor loaded at 80 lbs would give you the 80 lbs/linear foot that we're trying to simulate here), we put in 20 dead load and 60 live load, and see that we can get to 20'3". Let's screw with the numbers and approximate two of 'em side-by-side, which means each would get half the load, and we're at 26½' for a 4×12.

Not impossible. You'd want to check with what they'll let you get away with in terms of live and dead load for your roof. You'd also have a hell of a time insulating that roof, or would have to think about it a bit, as you can't just use rolled fiberglass; that has to be vented above it.

A Glulam board could probably do it in less material, I just couldn't figure out how to get any dealers of 'em near me to start the speculative discussion on how I'd calculate what I needed. And I had way higher roof loading than you.

Getting it into place… build your wall assembly, no coverings, and your peaks on your ends. Nail a 2×6 up just beside the peak on both ends. Slide the beam in through the wall assembly, use a block and tackle on that 2×6 on one end to lift it, push it up that direction until the other end clears the other wall, use a block and tackle on the other wall, and voila!

I didn't price out 4×10 sheathing, just that it was more expensive per square foot than 4×8, but another option would be to make the walls higher… And my original plan for the roof was to use 1×6 tongue and groove decking with a home-made rafter-joist truss assembly on 4' centers. I think that would have been sexy as all get-out, and I convinced myself that I could make it support the 120 lbs/sq.ft. I needed, and the engineer's only concern (aside from the price for him to double-check the calcs on it and the fact that it'd be one more thing we had to convince the city of) was that the 2 3/8" bolts I was planning on using to tie the 2×6 joist to the 2×8 doubled rafters wouldn't be able to hold the spreading load at the shallow roof angle I wanted on the joist.

So play with that span calculator and whatever you can find for loading for various roof sheathing options, you may be able to come up with something with wider joist spacing that works for you…


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Oh, if you think about trigonometry a little bit you can think about how trusses work: How basically your roof load is causing a downward pressure of 1/2 the load at the peak, and that's causing a spreading force that's 1/2 the span over the rise times that downward pressure.

If your rafters can handle the additional load of some of that joist action, you can move the joist further up the rafters: It doesn't have to be at the top of the wall. So maybe you move up to 2×6 rafters and put your joists to keep the spreading controlled up a foot.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Thinking about it some more, I suspect that I'd be happy with 4' joists. You're right that it'd give you something to hook onto-open volume isn't so useful compared to volume that has a framework in it. Maybe if the joists are 2×6 instead of 2×4 then I won't need to space them so close together.

The utilities companies came by, marked the water main (out in front of the house), and…that's it. So I'm clear to start tearing the back yard up. Well, except that first I need to deconstruct the shed out back. It's a bit of a shame to take it down-it's solidly-constructed. But it's simply too small to be useful, and some of the wood is pretty thoroughly rotted. Still, most of the 2×4s ought to be re-usable for something. Maybe I can make some deck furniture out of them or something.

I'm also working on modeling the plans for the workshop. So far they're still pretty preliminary, but at the very least I have the studs marked.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

Great news that your building department is trying to help and not hinder…they get a lot of bad press in some places. I had some issues with my last house (NY) over some things that I didn't create and were missed in all the real estate transfers that happened before I bought it. Even though they knew that and said as much to my face, they were total A****les to deal with. When I built here a few years ago, my inspector was a very trusted resource (but I had advance warning not to lie to him).

You have enough structural advice from Dan. I will say on door size though figure out what machines you might want to add in the future and check the dimensions. I'd be leery of too much glass (it is a workshop and "stuff happens").

Electrical can wait…you can probably get by with a 60a breaker in your main panel (requires 2 slots since you'll be taking 240v out to your subpanel) but check the cost of going to a 100a. Realize that very rarely will you be running several tools at the same time (other than lighting, probably a dust collector and the tool you are working with). If you are afraid of it (I'm not) then your "sparky" should know what to do.

I have a question in my head on my own shop about sub-panels that is confusing and will post back if I get an answer (the question deals with the requirement to have a "cut-off" at the sub yet they say not to use a "main" panel…in my simple way of thinking, would seem that a "main" panel would be the "cut-off"). I'll post back.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Good call on the glass. It's a balancing act between having enough natural light and not being at risk of things breaking. But I think two sets of wall windows is a bare minimum-if nothing else, I need a crossbreeze for ventilation. A skylight or two should help without creating a significant risk of breakage.

Regarding the door, I can't think of any tools that could possibly have two dimensions larger than 48" that you wouldn't want to disassemble for transport anyway. In fact I'd almost certainly be fine with a 36" door, but the extra foot should make maneuvering bulky projects easier.

I just spent several minutes searching for online door sellers that aren't garage door sellers and have simple, basic doors that you can search by dimension; I'm not having much luck there. But it occurs to me that I ought to be able to make my own door. I certainly won't be short on dimensional lumber and plywood. So I can just put whatever size seems reasonable into the plans I'm drawing up, and if I can't find that exact size later, oh well.

Edited to add:

Here's some shots of the plans I'm working on. The first shot is a top-down view showing the sole plates, studs, and the framing for the door and two windows. The second shot is of the "front" of the workshop (with the door and one window). Apologies for the odd rendering; I need to figure out how to tell Blender to not shade objects. I'm not entirely certain how to handle corners properly, but I figure more studs is better than fewer. Windows are 40"x55" based on one I saw on Home Depot's website.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah, the other reason to put in windows is a second egress. Because I'm paranoid that way.

Our county "waste transfer station" (where they sort it to send it to recycling or a dump) has a used building materials area where they'll sell you a door for $10-$20. If you have such a place, you can probably find two solid frame and panel doors that you can cut down to 24" wide. If not, then, yeah, a bit of plywood, a frame, and there you go.

On your plans, the first thing that leaps out is that your corner detail should show how you're going to attach the interior wallboard to the studs there. The way you have it now I think you'd need to use wallboard clips. Unless you're going to skip the wallboard and use conduit for your electrical?

And if you can align things on your faces so that you've got even 16" stud centers, you'll be happier…


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

As I said, I'm unclear on how to handle the corners. Right now they're just marked as two adjacent 2×4s; I figured I'd need something in the corner to attach paneling to on the outside. I could put in some extra studs so that any interior finishing would have something to attach to on its ends. It seems like extra studs rarely hurt except in price, and a few extra 2×4s is not going to break the bank.

(Oh, I should note that the wide rectangular ribbon that all the studs are placed on in the top-down view is the 2×6 sole plate, in case that wasn't clear)

Neat idea on the waste handling center; I'll have to see if there's anything like that around here. I'm in the San Francisco area, so I suspect that anything useful is probably already pretty well picked-over, but given that a new 4' door would cost a couple hundred bucks easy, it must be worth checking out.

The spacing on the studs is 16" OC. It just looks uneven because of the jack studs for the door/windows, and in the corners because I forced placing studs right on the corner.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm about as far north of SF as you are south (well, maybe just a little further), so you may be surprised. Further, up in Santa Rosa we have a Habitate for Humanity ReStore. Or it may be an excuse to come up and spend a day hanging out in wine country…

For corner framing details, check out the "Insulated Corner"/"California Corner" on the very bottom of the Performance Walls - Advantages of Advanced Framing page. There's a two-stud assembly that works with clips on the drywall, but at about two bucks for a stud (plus the nails), the three stud solution seems reasonable to me. For all the reasons you mention.


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## Derakon (Jun 19, 2012)

Okay, I have to admit I'm not entirely clear on the best way to go about demolishing the old shed. Searching online the general advice is "start with the roof", well, this roof is seriously solidly built:



















Whoever nailed the plywood onto the roof used a lot of nails, which have all rusted enough to be very difficult to remove while still effectively holding the plywood down. I'm also not especially comfortable trying to work while standing on a roof that I'm attempting to destroy.

It seems like I ought to be able to remove the siding, unbolt the top sill plate, and just slide the entire roof off whole, but I'm not clear on how that could be safely done. Alternately perhaps two of the walls could be taken out and then the shed could be convinced to collapse in a safe direction. I have no vehicle access and the shed is about 18" away from the fence in two directions (plenty of open space in the other two directions though).

Of course I could hire someone to demolish it for me and haul away the debris, but in the interests of keeping costs down I'd like to do it myself. I'm just not sure what the best approach is here. My relevant tools are a jigsaw, a prybar, and a 5-pound rubber mallet (biggest hammer I have); of course I can buy more tools but they need to be the right ones.

This is getting somewhat far from Lumberjocks' normal purview, I'm afraid…


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I would put on my hearing and eye protection, grab my 22 oz framing hammer (or maybe something bigger), go inside the shed, and beat the crap out of the roof along the edges of those trusses. Bet the plywood will pop right up.

But I'd also take out those shelves and the other interior bits, just to make it easy to swing a big-ass hammer.

And, yeah, maybe a bit afield for LumberJocks. I read the sister-site HomeRefurbers, but there's more traffic over here…


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