# Keep Me From Burning Down My Shop - HaHa



## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

Ok, here is what I have going on. I am putting electrical outlets back into my shop after the drywall and insulation was installed. I found out there were two 20 amp breakers for my shop.

*After investigating: *
1. I see there is a single 12/3 with ground (black, red, white, green) running to the shop. (Two hots, neutral, ground) right?
2. I have a red wire running out of one breaker and a black running out of the other.
3. It looks like they used the (red, white, green) for one circuit, and (black, white, green) for the other. 
4. I left the garage door wired to the (red, white, green) and also installed a flourescent light fixture (got three more to do) on this circuit as well. 
5. I installed a single wall outlet on the (black, white, green).
6. I noticed when I turn on the circuit *ON* (black, white, green) and leave the (red, white, green) *OFF* it behaves accordingly. 
7. When I turn the (red, white, green) *ON*, and the other *OFF*, the (black, white, green) circuit also has power.

What could I have possibly done wrong? I put my multi-meter to everything and I'm pulling 124v from black to ground, red to ground, and also on the wall outlet 124v from black to white. (My house has always read 124v 'ish since we moved in)

I disconnected the opener and lights from the (red, white, green) circuit and they both still read 'hot' when the one circuit is turned off. I measured this from the first splice in my shop where is enters the structure from the house feed. Argh! I keep the breakers to the shop turned off unless I'm in there working, for fear of burning it down. I only started wiring the lights yesterday.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

On 220 circuits. The red and black are hot leads. if you only use one with the common then you get 110V across the red and black you have 220 V

Your OK on what you found. You have two 124V circuits using 1/2 of the red/black pairing.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

So, it's ok that when one circuit is turned on both of them are hot? But when switched oppositely one of them is not hot? I'm just making sure this is OK.

Thanks guys. Wow, I actually have 20amp 220 out there. Hahahaha, what is that good for? Not much, I suspect!


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

My 2 cents, if I were you I would contact a licensed electrician.


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

Sounds like the breaker is bad and won't shut off. I'd try to swap the breaker.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

When I turn them both off, all the power is off in the shop.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I have the same config in my garage shop I think. There is a feed from my panel that is 220 Romex (red, black white and green). At the panel the red and black are on separate 20 amp 110 breakers and on the shop side the red and black (green and white) are separated on two duplex outlets giving me two separate 110 20 amp circuits on one wire. This works out pretty nicely for me so I can run my dust collection on one side and the power tool on the other. Be careful my friend…electricity bites…I have allot of contractor friends and I always call my electrician buddy whenever I do anything more dangerous than changing an outlet or a switch!


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## wdkits1 (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Matt
1 Check to see that the hots from the panel (black and red) are on different legs ( one breaker above the other ).
If they are then you do have 220 out in the shop.Check this with a meter at the first j box.

2 If you don't have 220 between the red and black that means that both circuits are on the same leg which will put double the load on the neutral which is not a good thing.

3 If you do have 220 then what you have to look for is a loose or broken neutral which would cause a backfeed from one circuit to the other when one circuit is off.


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

Sounds like you got the neutral hooked up wrong on one of the two circuts.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

Matt, Check the green to a ground like a water pipe or a metal box that is hooked to true ground and let me know if you get ANY voltage at all. Measuring from red to black you will mot likely get 220 it they are coming from two different lugs. If they are the same circuit you will measure "0" or real close to it. It sound like you have looped the hot leg back to the same source some how, or a loose or broken ground.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

I have disconnected things all the way back to the house. With the lines disconnected at the box (about 3 feet from my panel), I checked for voltage in the red and black about 1 foot from the breakers. When the breaker with the black wire is on I get power only to the black circuit. when I turn it off and turn on the breaker with the red wire, I get voltage in both circuits. Strange. They aren't hooked to anything at this point. That stuff was installed that way when I bought the place 18 months ago. Nothing is looped that I can see. That is unless they did it on purpose. Looks like they used lots of 12/3 and shared the wire all over my house to save some money or time or both or something.

I'm really close to having someone pull both 20 amp breakers, install a 60 amp breaker and fishing a 6 gauge out to the shop. Argh!


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

If I was there, I would jump in with both feet and you and I would fix this. But since I am not there, I am going to wait, watch and listen for the outcome.

Be careful, this is a situation where you can get bit real well.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

My detached garage/shop was wired similarly. I decided to have a breaker panel put in, and split the circuits there. If I remember correctly the power from the house going to the shop was two 20 amp breakers on a red, black, white, and ground. We were able to replace those with a 30 amp dual pole breaker ( 240V ) An electrician did the job. Glad I had it done. Now I have three 240V circuits ( Contractors's saw, dust collector, air compressor and , or an edge sander ) and three 120V circuits in the shop. I'm a firm believer in a dedicated 120V or 240V circuit for table saws.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

Bingo, Disconnect both red and black from the breaker and check for continuity from black to red going away from the panel if you read a closed ckt you have them touching somewhere in which case I would not recommend using that ckt at all just run a new line using the old 12 gage wire to pull the #6 gage and use plenty of lube.. If you do go with a 60 amp and a 60 am box don't forget you really have 120AMP capacity.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

Give us a reality check.

1. ou disconnected The red and black wires three feet from the CB. In other words the only place this piece of 12/3 goes is from the CBs to a point 3 feet away and they are open circuited at that point.

2. With black CB on and red CB off you have voltage on the black wire and no voltage on the red wire.
With the black CB off and red CB on you have voltage on both the black and red wires.

If that is true then:

With both CB breakers off do you have voltage on either wire? If you do it sounds like a defective black CB.

Verify by moving the black wire to a different breaker on the same side of the panel and see what you get.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

1. True

2. True

I've got a spare breaker in my panel I can hook it to and check it when I get home tomorrow evening. I've been making sure to turn off both breakers when I'm not out there for safety until I get this sorted out.

Sandhill. Hmmm, 120 amps out there. Tempting!

Thanks guys. Keep the ideas. Coming!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

#1 did you ever measure 220 between the red and black at any point? #2 If you are dealing with an open neutral at some point with 220 on the hots, yoiu can burn a lot of stuff up. The light load will burn up when teh heavy load come on the other circuit. I hate to see 3 conductor circuits in residential installations. Too many people with just enough knowledge to cause a lot of trouble. #3 If you are using a digital meter, yo umay not have what it says. An old fashoned analog meter or a "wiggie" is what you want in this type of situation for trouble shooting.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

I didn't measure for 220 across the red/black. I did, however, measure 120v on each individual circuit when they were in each configuration. i.e. Both on, black on.

That's why I'm here asking questions. Believe me, even though I know my configuration is the same as when I started this work, I'm not hooking up the big tools until I get answers. I also have sent a note to a guy I know who is a licensed electrician. He replied last night and asked me what I was experiencing. I just shot the details to him a few minutes ago.

Very frustrating. It's headed down the road toward running a bigger wire (even if it's not as big as a #6) and putting in a sub panel. Even if it's only 30/40 amps for now. I've got the room in my main panel to upgrade and if I need to dig later, then that's all that I'll need to do.

This is fun stuff guys! Not.

Thanks for everything, however.


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## wdkits1 (Mar 21, 2009)

Matt 
From someone who's been doing electrical work for 30 years I would suggest that it's time to get someone in there that knows what he's doing to find out what is going on. Loose neutrals, bad breakers and crossed hots can all lead to serious problems when you start putting large loads on these circuits. Hire a pro to straighten things out.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for everything guys. Probably a good call at this point. The only other detail I may have left out is these breakers are those little 1/2 height breakers (which I, personally, do not care for). At least, I don't want these little breakers feeding my shop.

Probably a good time to get my electrician friend out to fish a 6/3 and install a subpanel. 

You guys have been awesome (and very patient!)

Thanks again!


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## marcb (May 5, 2008)

Yeah at this point you may just want to go with your No 6 wire plan. Just remove the 12 and install the 6. I would fish the tape through fist to make sure you can do it, otherwise you'll need to trench.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

One more question. If both the red and the black are both using the same ground and neutral all the way back to the panel, would that allow the voltage to cross back over to the other wire? Just a thought.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Ya..time to call in a pro..i would go with your plan to pull in the 6/3 and do a sub panel. Call an electrician…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Matt, It could if you have an open neutral connection or a 220 volt load on the circuit. It sounds to me like you probably have both the red and black on the same phase on the 2 peanut breakers. FYI, the half size breakers were outlawed 20 or 25 years ago due to all the trouble they caused. They are legal if part of the original installation prior to the code change.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

So being on a half height breaker and right next to each other, they are on a single phase? Is this correct? I'll have to check when I get home. Seems like they might be on different ones, however based on their positioning. Arrgh! hahahaha

As for the half height breakers, this house wasn't even built 20 years ago. It's in Illinois, by the way.

If I install a 60amp 240v breaker, I'll have to move some of the other circuits to these little breakers to make room for the big one. I have several 20amp circuits that have only 3 (very unused) wall outlets.

P.S. I left a message for a couple of electricians that I was told would also do some 'side work' so there's hope for me yet!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

In most panels the phases alternate down both sides. Full sized breaker #1 is top left on phase A Black, #2 is top left on phase A, #3 is the next one on the left on phase B Red, #4 is the second one on the right on phase B and so on down for single phase. Just add phase C Blue for three pahse. If the red and black are on the same peanut with 2 handles, they are on the same phase. I don't know how many times I found this over the years but a bunch.

I may be wrong about the time of the code change eliminating the peanut breakers, but it was quite a while back. I found them installed after they were no longer legal. Lots of things can happen after the inspection, if there is one. Not only does everything start to run together after 40 years, but the mind starts running it all together too ) That adds up to an expotential rate of aging!! An aquaintance of mine built a commercial auto repair shop. They went with cheapeest is best. When I saw it, they used the smallest panels they could buy full of peanut breakers. I don't believe they were ever legal for commercial use, residential only, but I could be wrong on that on.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

For some reason the edit button doesn't seem to work.

The previous should read;"#2 is top RIGHT on phase A," not:"#2 is top LEFT on phase A,"


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

Ok, I have an electrician coming to the house tomorrow to look at it and give me a bid. Yay!


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## JimmyNate (Mar 24, 2009)

Good plan hiring a professional. I would like to know what ballpark that bid is in if you don't mind sharing. I may need to look into doing this myself.


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

I hope it ain't too high! I can do all the electrical stuff once the subpanel is installed in the garage. I just need the 60A breaker installed, wire fished, subpanel installed. It will need an electrode too. If he can keep it down in the several hundreds, I'll be happy!


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

No plug. It's just a junction box. The thing is, I got the same readings where the 12/3 leaves the house as well. There's only 3 or 4 feet of wire between that box and the breakers. Nice! Don't you guys love wiring?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I always have loved it) Don't know what I'd do if it weren't for electricity!! Did you ever take the meter and check red to black with both breakers on? Is the meter digital?


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## JMatt (Mar 2, 2009)

Holy crap! I fixed it. I went back with my trusty meter and unhooked everything. I then started hooking everything back up and running back and forth from the shop flipping breakers. When I got to the light switch I found an improperly wired pig tail. Once I fixed that I now have two perfectly functioning circuits in the shop.

I'm still having the guy bid the upgrade tomorrow. However, if he comes in high, I now have the option to wait a month or two. I have lifted such a load off my mind. Whenever something like this happens my brain works over time trying to find the solution. My fault.

Thanks again guys! I learned so much in this thread. Sorry to have put you through it. If you're ever around St. Louis, I'll buy you a cold Schlaffley's. (or 6!)

Cheers,


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

Red and Black wired together in the outlet box?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You still need 220 between the black and red or your neutral will be overloaded with the current from 2 circuits.


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## CharleyL (Mar 10, 2009)

TopamaxSurvivor is correct, and to get 240 volts between the red and black you need to connect these two wires to different breakers, not to the same peanut. These breakers need to be on different poles of the panel. When you get this done correctly you should find that there is 240-250 volts between the red and black leads, and 120-125 volts between the red lead and neutral, and 120-125 volts between the black lead and neutral. This will give you two 120-125 volt circuits, but it should not be used for 240-250 volt loads unless you hook the red and black wires in the panel to a 2 pole breaker that has a common trip handle to cut off power to both circuits at once. Without changing to this type of breaker there is a danger of voltage being present to ground after one breaker has tripped. This could be very dangerous.

CharleyL


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