# Face shield when using the table saw



## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Sorry if this has been talked about before (I looked and couldn't find any threads).

After the kickback issues I had a few weeks back with my table saw, I've decided that I have to not only make sure the safety features of the saw itself are up to snuff but that I wear the appropriate safety gear. I've purchased a heavy-duty, padded shop apron and would like to get a face shield. Would the shield below offer adequate protection should a piece of wood kickback from my table saw and fly at my face?

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B001VXXUWK/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I3VJGEIREYMKH7&colid=6CACM77KAKVL&psc=1










Uvex Bionic Face Shield

Thanks!


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

I did not refer to the specs that they claim the face shield meets, but I did notice that they indicate that it must be worn with safety glasses or goggles. It sounds like you cannot count on the face shield alone to protect your eyes.

Note added later: Well, I decided to look up the ANSI standard and I do not understand why they would require safety glasses under the shield. Seems like wearing a belt and suspenders at the same time.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

from personal experience, I now concentrate on PREVENTING kickbacks.
I no longer cut anything smaller than my arm freehand - I will use the sled for those.

I would look for something with a marriage of a hockey mask, major league catchers mask,
lumberjack chainsaw helmet, football helmet, etc etc etc - LOL yeah, a little overkill - - - 








but, to shield the eyes, nose and throat from flying lumber is critical.
damage to the hands, arms and torso is easier to work around than a banged up face.
[been there - done that - and got the eyepatch to prove it]


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

I just wear safety glasses


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Per OSHA, face shields are not intended to protect from impacts, just chips, dust, and the like. Safety glasses or goggles are primary protection for your eyes.

I imagine something intended to protect your face from impacts would look more like catchers mask.

The face shield you referenced would probably help if a small cut off got airborne and hit your face, but wouldn't do a lot of good if it were a good size piece moving at high speed. Having said that, I don't see it would be likely to hurt wearing it.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

A lot of turners use that model and are happy with it. I have one (I'm a wanna-be turner) and like it a lot…but as mentioned, you have safety glasses under it.


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

I have this exact mask and use it for weed eating. Have been thinking of getting another for the shop. I can't answer your question but if you wear glasses like I do, this mask will not fog up on you.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

My take: I had a radial arm saw cutting with the grain along the fence get caught, and the piece went through the wall of my shop when it kicked back.

I don't know about you, but I cannot imagine a safety shield that would stop a piece of hardwood that will go through plaster, insulation, and T111 siding on one hit. And since the radial arm saw blade is turning about the same RPM as a tablesaw, seems to me that your face shield would not do the job.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Tradesmen who ran shapers in the old days
would wear lead-line aprons. The old heads
could throw knives.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I'm just guessing, but I suspect the additional requirement for eye protection under may be due to the size of the face shield. Something can break it, and it would potentially have more and larger fragments. Also, it might be that being larger it is more prone to being shattered than the much smaller lenses of goggles or safety glasses.

Also, to reduce weight, I would expect the plastic to be thinner than typical safety glasses and goggles. Again, just speculation on my part. If they say it should be worn with safety glass, I'd take them at their word.

One thing is certain, it would reduce if not completely prevent injury. I've seen John's photos, and you're not wrong to be concerned about this.


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## Hermit (Oct 9, 2014)

They do claim they are rated ansi z87+ which was tested for high velocity impact. https://blog.safetyglassesusa.com/what-does-ansi-z87-1-2010-certified-mean/
Scroll down for the description of the "+". Video also shows the testing method.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

> They do claim they are rated ansi z87+ which was tested for high velocity impact. https://blog.safetyglassesusa.com/what-does-ansi-z87-1-2010-certified-mean/
> Scroll down for the description of the "+". Video also shows the testing method.
> 
> - Hermit


Yep, That's why I wonder why they specify wearing safety glasses or goggles with the face shield? Not trying to be a pedant, but I do not understand how the manufacturer can list their product as meeting the ANSI standards for impact and then claim that the user requires additional protection. I would have thought that the standard was designed to protect against an impact. Clin rightly points out the issue of the size of the protecting screen area on how well a barrier can protect, but the bottom line remains. The manufacturer claims that the face shield meets the ANSI specs. Either it will or it won't survive a major force blow. Should I also wear goggles? Perhaps industrial rated safety glasses underneath? Maybe a layer of chain link fence to,deflect the big chunks?

Sounds like the folks in the lawyer's suite writing boilerplate to cover the corporate a$$.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks for the responses so far. I will def wear safety glasses underneath. Better safe than sorry.



> from personal experience, I now concentrate on PREVENTING kickbacks.
> I no longer cut anything smaller than my arm freehand - I will use the sled for those.
> 
> I would look for something with a marriage of a hockey mask, major league catchers mask,
> ...


 John - your story has def effected me and is one of the reasons I want face protection.



> They do claim they are rated ansi z87+ which was tested for high velocity impact. https://blog.safetyglassesusa.com/what-does-ansi-z87-1-2010-certified-mean/
> Scroll down for the description of the "+". Video also shows the testing method.
> 
> - Hermit


 Hermit, thanks so much for sharing this. Very interested.


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## woodworm1962 (Feb 15, 2018)

I think you have over looked another very important and vital area of the male human body my friend!


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## IantheTinker (Jan 19, 2018)

There will always be something else you COULD put on to protect yourself in any given situation. However, at some point it gets excessive, and even dangerous, to have so much safety equipment. The best thing you can do is to be mindful and educated, as well as wear protective equipment (within reason). Most kickbacks are caused by the user making a mistake, which is bound to happen at some point, even to the most experienced. That is when protective equipment plays its role. Like I said though, the most important aspects of safety are mindfulness and education. I hope I made myself clear, I feel like I rambled, lol.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

If the purpose of the padded apron and face shield is to protect against your next kickback then you're approaching this all wrong. You've already assumed you will have another kickback. As stated in post #14, mindfulness and education are the most important aspects of preventing kickback. After my first (and only) kickback I bought a Grrripper. Haven't had another kickback in 15 years. Spend your money wisely.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> from personal experience, I now concentrate on PREVENTING kickbacks.
> I no longer cut anything smaller than my arm freehand - I will use the sled for those.
> 
> I would look for something with a marriage of a hockey mask, major league catchers mask,
> ...


John, with your track record, if I may, I recommend this headgear for you.








And maybe a good idea to follow up with some further protection as well, (just don't wear the gloves)


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

jbay you left one thing out


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Wow… I usually just wear flip-flops, shorts and a t-shirt, even when doing stuff like turning on the lathe. Only time I've been sorry is when I was welding and some sparklies hit my toes :-O

Cheers,
Brad


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Same here Brad, but I do wear my safety glasses- and I hear Norm everytime.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Maybe I'll buy the face shield and take a swing at it with a baseball bat. If it stands up to a straight hit from a bat, surely it would withstand a kickback, yes?


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

> I think you have over looked another very important and vital area of the male human body my friend!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL. I actually haven't forgotten about that! The apron I bought is long enough that it will cover the good stuff. Although maybe I'll sew in a crotch pocket to hold a plate of bulletproof kevlar, just to be safe.


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## woodworm1962 (Feb 15, 2018)

I got very lucky and not injured being fast, not safe and stupid on my table saw a few years ago.

I was mounting some doors into a kitchen cabinet I made. A rustic monster. The top doors were pine styles and rails but instead of any kind of panel they wanted RUSTED 1/4 mess wire sort of like chicken wire in them.

One of the doors needed just a smidge shaved off one side I set my fence but didnt use any feather boards, push stick or glasses or helmet.

I Pushed it through then let it go to get a better grab on it. The damn think rode up on the blade. then blade cut half way sawed through that rail. then grabbed that WIRE then fired it back right at my head!

I Literally tilted my head flat to the left just in the nick of time for the door to go spinning frizbee style right over my head, Punched through my garage door and landed next to my car in the back lot.

KNOCK WOOD!


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## woodworm1962 (Feb 15, 2018)

This guy


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

If I were you, I would invest in a set of *anti-kickback pawls *if your saw does not already have them. *Your saw should also have some sort of riving knife or splitter*. I have worked on lots of tablesaws without them and kickbacks were fairly common on them especially with rookie operators or if the wood was damp &/or warped. For safety reasons I think it is totally foolish to not use them for all rip cut operations.


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

You could also look into lacrosse helmets if you really wanted to get something with that much protection.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> Maybe I ll buy the face shield and take a swing at it with a baseball bat. If it stands up to a straight hit from a bat, surely it would withstand a kickback, yes?


First, the helmet must be secured in a manner similar to the way it'd be while wearing it. If you just set it on top of a table and whack it with a bat, that's not the same. When it's on your head, your head and body will provide a resistant force to the kickback or bat. That significantly increases the forces applied to the mask/helmet vs. if it's unsecured when it is struck.

Also, the design of many impact protection devices allows that device to deform and become damaged when impacted. Sort of sacrificing itself for the benefit of its wearer. Thus, applying your baseball bat test to the mask could render it useless in protecting against another impact.

I believe the linear velocity of the teeth on a table-saw is around 200mph. Obviously, not all of that energy is transferred to a board during a kickback, but it's possible that a kick-backed board may be moving at triple-digit speeds. Can you swing a baseball bat at 100mph?

Probably best to leave the testing to the experts referenced by Hermit


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

This bomb squad suit should do the trick:


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Article on bat speed.

Those face shields are made of polycarbonate (Lexan or similar) and will not break. They will, however deform so that if hit hard enough, whatever is hitting them will hit you too.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Rough crowd here mustango, but you have to admit some of the responses are funny 

I have the face shield you linked. I use it when working on my lathe. Thankfully it hasn't been tested  I wear safety goggles when running the cabinet saw.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I use the Uvex with both lathe and TS. No probs with either. Good shield, and you can buy peel-off film to protect the clear surface from scratches.
Bill


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

> Rough crowd here mustango, but you have to admit some of the responses are funny
> 
> I have the face shield you linked. I use it when working on my lathe. Thankfully it hasn t been tested  I wear safety goggles when running the cabinet saw.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


It is a rough crowd


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

> I use the Uvex with both lathe and TS. No probs with either. Good shield, and you can buy peel-off film to protect the clear surface from scratches.
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White


Thanks for the info! Very helpful.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

> Article on bat speed.
> 
> Those face shields are made of polycarbonate (Lexan or similar) and will not break. They will, however deform so that if hit hard enough, whatever is hitting them will hit you too.
> 
> - Ocelot


Thanks for the info!


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

@john Hobbs - I'll put the face shield on a watermelon or a pumpkin before I take a baseball bat to it.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

Why has nobody mentioned the most important thing, never stand in the plane of the spinning blade???

A face shield like that will protect against small chips from a wider range of angles than simple safety glasses will, and protect more of the face, but won't offer much protection against impact from a fast moving heavy projectile (like the 2×4 that kicks back while you're ripping it).


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## IantheTinker (Jan 19, 2018)

> Why has nobody mentioned the most important thing, never stand in the plane of the spinning blade???
> 
> A face shield like that will protect against small chips from a wider range of angles than simple safety glasses will, and protect more of the face, but won t offer much protection against impact from a fast moving heavy projectile (like the 2×4 that kicks back while you re ripping it).
> 
> - MalcolmLaurel


Good point, don't stand in the same path as the blade. I really do believe, and have already commented, that safety practices are the most essential aspect of preventing injury. You can only wear so much gear until it actually becomes a hindrance. Plus safety gear can make one a bit careless. I don the safety glasses, hearing protection, and lung protection (depending on how many cuts I make) when I use the table saw. Other than those things, I rely upon proper safety practices.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Yes, obviously, safety practices are the most important factor. No where in my post did I say anything about wearing safety gear so that I could be LESS safe while operating my table saw. Obviously, I'm going to do everything I can to be as safe as possible. Of course I'm going try and stay out of the plane of the spinning blade. I don't think that wanting to wear some extra protection would mean that I'm "approaching this all wrong" or that I've "already assumed" I "will have another kickback". Wearing a padded apron and face shield does not seem like too much nor does it seem like it would be a hindrance nor would it make me careless or less mindful. If anything, by putting on the few pieces of safety gear it will remind me to slow down, think things through, and be mindful, careful, and safe. Honestly, I don't think I will have another kickback - I've figured out what I was doing wrong (using a saw that had a misaligned blade) and I've corrected that. The main reason I'm using the extra safety gear is to make me feel better going back to the table saw after experiencing a kickback. It's really more for my piece of mind.

Sorry if I seem rude or overly sensitive. I really appreciate the replies from members who are actually trying to answer my initial question about the Uvex Face Shield. And honestly, I've enjoyed almost all of the responses, whether they were helpful or not. But, I just wanted to briefly address this idea that my plan to wear a couple of extra pieces of safety gear is somehow a bad idea.

FYI - I got the Uvex in the mail yesterday. It seems like it will offer a good amount of protection. A replacement shield is only $20 (for the anti-fog version) so I may take a baseball bat to the one I just got to see how it holds up. I understand that a board coming off a table saw will most likely be moving faster than I can swing a bat, but still… if the face shield stands up to the bat, that will be impressive. If I do decide to test, I will report back.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

El-Mustango
I tried to figure out what happened when I got hurt and one of the things that
I can be certain of is that I was about 18-20" to the left of the anticipated firing line.
so I am thinking that the smaller the chunk of wood, the easier it will be to become
pinched between the fence and the blade and be hurled out sideways quite a bit.
a longer straight board would probably come straight back from the blade.
of course, my issue came from using the saw without the splitter or kickback pawls. that was my bad. 
I use a sled now and am still very nervous around all machines with sharp moving parts.
good luck to you and be alert always !!

Edit: yes, you are very correct: 
"a board coming off a table saw will most likely be moving faster than I can swing a bat" 
but - put that as: it will MOST DEFINITELY be moving faster than you can swing a bat !!

.


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## caboxmaker (May 3, 2017)

el, I'm pretty sure (almost certain) that if you pay attention to the rules of using a tablesaw and use a grrripper you'll never have a kickback. Do you own a grrripper? Have you researched them?


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## alanealane (Oct 1, 2007)

I think this topic may be a bit saturated with advice (and some pretty good wit) but it seems to be quite sound advice to have a splitter installed, and anti-kickback pawls if possible (board buddies might work). Combined with a proper stance to be out of the firing line and the face shield plus safety glasses, you should be relatively safe from face impacts. Make sure you are aware of the condition of the piece you're cutting…does it have warps or bows or a non-straight edge against the table or fence? Or is it a moist piece? If so take the necessary measures to give yourself a stable non wobbly workpiece. Featherboards can be good at times and even a power feeder might help although that's very expensive. I have yet to buy a set of grr-rippers but it seems like a wise investment.

And I love the uvex bionic by the way. Combined with a comfy low profile dust mask (like the RZ Mask) you should be good. There's always risk with power tools. Just be as aware as possible. The only way I could say to totally prevent chance of kickback would be to copy Roy Underhill and use hand saws


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## IantheTinker (Jan 19, 2018)

Something you might want to consider if you test the face shield is that most wood you are cutting is going to have corners, but a baseball bat won't. That might skew the results of your test since the bat will be a more blunt impact. Perhaps using a 2×4 or something of the like will prove to be a more useful tool in your test?

Best wishes, and I hope the number of responses, and opinions, you have received isn't too overwhelming.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Sorry if I seem rude or overly sensitive. I really appreciate the replies from members who are actually trying to answer my initial question about the Uvex Face Shield. And honestly, I ve enjoyed almost all of the responses, whether they were helpful or not. But, I just wanted to briefly address this idea that my plan to wear a couple of extra pieces of safety gear is somehow a bad idea.
> 
> - el_mustango


Sorry, yes my post was a bit facetious.

Seriously, it's important that you're comfortable, relaxed and alert. 
It's not always the kicked back piece hitting you.

I was cutting a small piece, just as John S, although the material was lexan it doesn't matter. 
The piece kicked back out of the saw and my left hand thrust down into the blade. Mangled a few fingers.

Morel of the story is that anything can happen, 
Knowing and feeling your material, being aware of signs that something is starting to happen and knowing what to do when it does is the foremost experience you need to have. 
Protection is secondary, but is also necessary, just don't stop learning the rest of the experience.


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## bndawgs (Oct 21, 2016)

I'm pretty sure the company you bought the face shield from has already done extensive impact research on it. Before you try to hit it with a baseball bat, I would reach out to them for some info on their testing. Unless of course you just want to do it for fun and don't mind spending money on another one.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

I will def be using the grr-ripper and a splitter. unfortunately my general international is too old to have a riving knife, although I will eventually invest in an aftermarket riving knife. Until then, I am using the MJ SPLITTER SteelPro by MICROJIG with a zero clearance throat plate.


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> @john Hobbs - I'll put the face shield on a watermelon or a pumpkin before I take a baseball bat to it.
> 
> 
> 
> - el_mustango


Now we're talking! Must see the video, or it didn't happen!

Better yet - Go down to the local high school and borrow their Jugs machine (machine that throws baseballs and footballs). Aim it at your face-shielded watermelon, crank it up to 11 and send some 2×4's through it! <cue>


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

> @john Hobbs - I'll put the face shield on a watermelon or a pumpkin before I take a baseball bat to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or do like this guy: YouTube Link


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

That first face shield has no chin strap or anything. Any legit chunk of wood would through the shield into your face and bash you all the same.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> @john Hobbs - I'll put the face shield on a watermelon or a pumpkin before I take a baseball bat to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That isn't technically kickback, but the point can be taken that the energy can still be delivered to a piece of wood.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Splitters and good push shoes (NOT STICKS) aside, it is amazing how little there really is out there to keep our faces safe. Not just on the table saw, but also on the lathe.

I have been eyeballing the chain saw type face shields like John posted pictures of because all the plastic crap out there is, well, crap.

How hard would it be to build a face shield with 1/4" polycarbonate and replaceable 1/8" covers to deal with scratches? For that matter, the wire grid wouldn't be that big a deal to add to it.

That said, since I started using push shoes, over forty years ago, I haven't had an honest kick back, though I have had to knee the power switch several times. When I added a splitter, the number of times I had to knee the switch went to almost zero. There were still times I had a 2x press so hard on the splitter I had to apply at least forty pounds, or more, pressure to keep the board moving. When that happened, as often as not, you could hear the board warning you to stop.

A note: I've owned a cabinet saw since about 75. It and other tools capable of doing me harm always scared me too much to put my fingers near the flesh eating part. Too, the idea of kickbacks is ALWAYS on my mind. From that, I always thought push sticks were, marginally, better than fingers.

All the push stick does is help you keep your fingers away. It does nothing to stop the blade at the back of the throat from lifting the board and starting a kick back. For that reason, I designed shoe like push sticks long before the Net was around, or magazines promoted them. I figured, if I can hold more of the board, I can keep more control of it.

Grippers are fine, but they're expensive and it hurts to chew them up. They are based on push shoes like the ones I use, some of which are wide and some of which are narrow, but all of which are as long or longer than the gripper. Many of mine are even taller. I keep them all where I can grab them, even if I forget to do so at the start of a cut.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I have the shield you posted. It offers about the same protection as a Harbor Freight shield.



> Sorry if this has been talked about before (I looked and couldn t find any threads).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

All he did was take a shortcut to the same end. It had the same effect.



> That isn t technically kickback, but the point can be taken that the energy can still be delivered to a piece of wood.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


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## Jon_H (Jun 21, 2016)

That's funny right there:



> That isn t technically kickback..
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


"A rose by any other name…"

It was offered in the context of humorous banter on how to effectively test the OP's faceshield. Simply an amusing way of accelerating a hunk of dead tree to a velocity roughly approximating that achieved during an actual kickback, for the purposes of *simulating* a kickback so as to observe the potential effects of a actual kickback upon an actual faceshield.

So you are technically correct, that isn't technically kickback. It may technically be not funny as well 

Legal Disclaimer - no baseball bats, watermelons or Jugs machines were harmed during the composition of this post. The same cannot be said for the pumpkins.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Just saw a photo of Murphy testing "the" bullet proof vest. It suggests where "Murphy's Law" came from.



> That s funny right there:
> 
> That isn t technically kickback..
> 
> ...


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I did admit that the point was made. I have a very literal bent to my life. You humor mileage may vary.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I have that mask, and wear either goggles, or my safety glasses under it. Very comfortable to wear, and if I had to get hit in the face I would hope to have my goggles, and that face shield in place as opposed to just grinning.

That said if you are having kickback, there is a checklist for that a LOT more important than what you are wearing on your head, see below

Absolute must that you maintain your TS in proper alignment. Miter slots to blade, and to fence. Toe in of the fence toward the blade, or improper alignment of the blade to the slots will/can cause kickback if you are pinching the wood between the blade, and the fence. Likewise a splitter/pawls/riving knife/or table mounted splitter are a necessity, preferably an entire guard. After the board goes through the blade the splitter et al is between the sides of the cut, and keep the board from pinching closed on the blade. Both of those factors are causes of kickback.

Kickback is EASY to eliminate, it is never a stroke of luck, it is a planned use of protective measures to keep kickback from ever happening again. Kickback is not fun, it could be fatal, it is almost always injurious. Stop kickback.


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## el_mustango (Oct 26, 2017)

Jon Hobbs - I will document it on video when I take a baseball bat (or 2×2) to it. That video you linked was pretty wild!

Kelly - thanks for sharing. I do have the grr-ripper and a good push shoe like you recommend. I was using the push shoe when I experienced the kickback, which is prob why I still have all my fingers.

Again, for those of you showing up late to the game, I have the blade aligned within 0.001 of the miter slots and the fence. Zero clearance throat plate with splitter has been installed. grr-riper or push "shoe" will be used. I'm really just looking for some extra protection.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

A little imagination and one could suspend, from the ceiling, a 3/8" poly shield about 3' long and "about" 20" wide (just wide enough to cover our front, but not interfere with reaching [comfortably] around). It'd be a fun experiment.

If it had just a little bow to it, it would deflect even better.

It might have Velcro on the end of 1/8" bungie to make it track you, or its position might be to move you out of the line of fire (John's story aside).


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