# Shelf w/ no underneath support -- screw directly into studs



## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

In my numerous Google searches, I kept getting directly here because apparently you guys store quite a lot of heavy wood in your garages and need shelving. I was hoping I might take advantage of some of your expertise since I have a shelf I would like to build to support heavy weight, in this case a fish tank.

Basically, I want to make my best effort to support a shelf in my family room so that it can hold a fish tank, total weight around 500 pounds. I have one of those wall nooks where someone once thought a TV would go, but is now largely useless. I want to put a fish tank there. The dimensions are 52" wide x 30.5" high x 26" depth. I removed the 1/4" plywood shelf to reveal 2×4 frame screwed (3" screws) to studs on three sides. The 2×4 frame does not have anything supporting it from underneath (in the pics below, that is some cement board about 7/8" down to insulate from the fireplace). There are 2×4 studs running on 3 sides, but obviously not the front side.

The fish tanks dimensions are 48" wide by 13" deep, so basically it will sit across the entirely of the width, but will only go half-way back. Unfortunately I want to place the fish tank towards the front.

MY QUESTION: What is the best way to shore this up so that it will support the 500 pounds of weight? I was planning on using Simpson Strong-Ties to strengthen the framing. I was also going to add some 2×4 cross sections. I would think the point of potential failure though is connecting the frame to the studs. I was planning on using 3/8" lag screws and washers (pre-drill the holes to avoid splitting) everywhere I can to better attach the framing to the existing studs.

Anything else I can do? Everything inside the nook will be obscured when I am done (plan on putting picture molding around the entire thing, with a board for access too). Thanks in advance for any help.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

It seems you have thought it out fairly well. Take the total weight and divide by the number of studs and it will give you an idea of how much each fastener will have to support (don't use cheap lag bolts). You could skin the 2×4 frame top and bottom with plywood effectively creating a torsion box to better distribute the weight and strengthen the frame. Seems safe assuming you have enough studs so that each lag screw isn't overburdened. Tank maintenance might be a pain in the rear.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks Rick! Do you think 3/4" maple plywood on top would work? One other question, does doubling up the 2×4s (side to side) help at all?


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## Richforever (Mar 19, 2008)

If there is nothing under the 2×4 frame to support it, can you stick a vertical pipe or 2×4 underneath the 2×4 frame to give it support? If the fireplace is underneath, you should be able to shim under the 2×4 frame to give it support above the cement board.

Good luck.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I have no major suggestions, but attaching 2×4's with pocket holes/screws is remarkably strong.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks Rich. So it isn't a major foul to have the cement board partially supporting? I wouldn't see why not, but just wasn't sure why the builders set the 2×4s just off the cement board when it seems like it would have been easier to have it rest on it.


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## WibblyPig (Jun 8, 2009)

What kind of tank - freshwater? A few thoughts off the top of my head:

While you have everything open, I would move that outlet to the top so you can use it for your lights and filter. Also, take out all the drywall and replace it with cement board because it is going to get MOIST in there and even greenboard will mold. Paint the cement board black and you won't have to worry about the background.

As long as you're moving the outlet, add a second outlet so you'll be covered for lights, heater, filter. If it's a FOWLR you can also add a powerhead to give you more current.

Use nails and not screws - screws are great for holding things but don't have the shear strength to support that kind of weight. If you lag into each stud and throw in a couple of nails it should be plenty of support. Use a piece of 3/4" B/C plywood over the 2×4s and spar varnish or shellac it to keep water from getting to the plywood. (Yes, shellac works fine - I had a 65 gallon reef and all the oak around it was shellaced - I spilled gallons of water on it over the years with no problems).

I assume you'll have a hinged door at the top for access. Either seal everything REALLY well inside there, put a little computer fan in for circulation or put a glass cover over the top (which will affect your PAR but isn't an issue if you're not doing a planted tank or a reef).

I wouldn't count on using the cement board for support - you don't know what it's attached to or how - it's probably just a few screws holding it in and it's acting as fireproofing.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I suspect the cement board and 2×4s being separated is a code issue since it is a fireplace, I would keep them separate.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks WibblyPig! I hadn't even thought about the moisture but that is a great point. Would moisture be a problem even with a cover on the tank? I've already changed over the outlet to GFCI, but raising it would not be a problem if I'm ripping out the drywall anyway. And yes, I do plan to have a door on a hinge. The tank is a 55 gallon and I plan on having fresh water fish, no live plants. The depth of the tank is only 13". I'd probably go bigger, but I want to be somewhat reasonable about weight, especially since it is over a fireplace.

My biggest concern is that the heavy weight will be on the front half (front 13" of 26" depth) of the side not supported by studs.

Is there any value to doubling up the studs? I will certainly add more front to back support but I was wondering if there is anything else I should be doing.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Do you use the fireplace? Do you like boiled fish?


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

The fire place gets used, but sparingly. Regardless, I've put a digital temp. gauge above the fire place and let the fireplace run for a couple of hours (the most it ever runs) and the temp. only went up a couple of degrees.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Bumping up to 2×6's would benefit because it will allow more fasteners but I don't believe putting a 2nd board inside the first will help much if at all.


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## WibblyPig (Jun 8, 2009)

If you have the space, I would probably take out all of the 2×4s and replace them with 2×6s. Put a double header on the front nailed and glued with a piece of plywood between the two 2x's. Then use joist hangers to hold everything in place.

You'll be fine with single 2×6s around the 3 walls. Adding "studs" every 16" o.c. isn't really necessary but it won't hurt. Lag and nail as stated above and you should be fine. The load is distributed evenly around the perimeter - look at the frame of the tank - all of the load is on the plastic rim around the perimeter, not the glass. As long as you're securely anchored at the corners, the tank won't be going anyplace. Don't forget the plywood - on second thought instead of B/C use CDX though I'd still seal it. Put down some 1/4" foam to absorb any ridges in the plywood and you'll be golden.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

OK, on the advice here (thanks WibblyPig), I've ripped out the 2×4 frame and will build a similar frame out of 2×6s. If this thing fails, I want to know I did the best I could do short of ripping out the entire thing. I will double up the front of the 2×6s. I'll do it, but what is the purpose of the plywood in between the double-uped 2×6s? Does it give it a better bond?

I may just backer board the ceiling unless you think humidity is going to get that high in there even with a cover on the tank. If I do backerboard, can I put the backerboard right over the drywall, or do I have to remove the drywall first?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm pretty sure he meant put the plywood atop the 2×6's, to set the tank on.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

Put 1/2 inch plywood between the two 2×6s and plenty of glue and nails. The result will bea laminated beam just like those used to span openings in rooms to support the load above it. Plenty strong.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks MT_Stringer. That makes sense and I will do. Someone recommended to me that I use ledger board fasteners instead of lag screws (FastenMaster LedgerLok 3-5/8 in. Coarse Steel Hex-Head Ledger Board Fasteners). Reviews of them seem phenomenal and there is no pre-drilling. Anyone use these and have any problems with them? Any reason I wouldn't use them instead of lag screws?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

If you have the space, I would probably take out all of the 2×4s and replace them with 2×6s. Put a double header on the front nailed and glued with a piece of plywood between the two 2x's. Then use joist hangers to hold everything in place.

I agree, I think that is the best idea to beef up the construction to support the weight.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks again everyone. To clarify one thing, when doubling up the header, is that the end closest to me, or furthest to me (the part tied into the wall) or should I double up both ends? Thanks!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Lots of good instructions .if you want to overkill it even more you can add metal connectors at the corners plus joist hangers.
I too would be concerned about the moisture in the nitch and on the wall above the area the tank will be placed

http://www.rakuten.com/prod/simpson-strong-tie-framing-angle-pack-of-25/257648146.html

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-2-in-x-6-in-Double-Shear-Hanger-LUS26/100374889?N=aqxb#.UrRVXdJDtRg


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks Jim. I did plan on using Simpson strong ties in the corner. For both the angles and the hangers, do I still nail in the face 2×4s in addition to the hanger nails or does that impact the integrity of the wood if I do that too? Sorry for all of my ignorance.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey buddy. I was looking through the new forums and was like this looks familiar. I saw you last night on home refurbers. Welcome to lumberjocks. These guys are awesome. I've built supports for fish tanks before in my construction business. Even though 500 lbs sounds like a lot. In the big scheme of things it's not really. Think about a roof or a deck with snow load. Or for that matter a big fat guy sitting on your bar stool. Being that you can get support on three sides of that nook I would definitely recommend fasten master ledger lock bolts. They meet all the codes for attaching a deck ledger to a house. To carry the weight of a deck. They go in without predrilling and are actually cheaper than lags. Here's a link to their site. 
http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/ledgerlok-ledger-board-fastener.html
I promise you'll have no problems. After that a double header in the front and fill in the blanks 16" OC. 3/4" ply top and some pretty trim. Good luck


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey buddy. I was looking through the new forums and was like this looks familiar. I saw you last night on home refurbers. Welcome to lumberjocks. These guys are awesome.

I've built supports for fish tanks before in my construction business. I'm a third generation contractor and Even though 500 lbs sounds like a lot. In the big scheme of things it's not really. Think about a roof or a deck with snow load. Or for that matter a big fat guy sitting on your bar stool. Being that you can get support on three sides of that nook I would definitely recommend fasten master ledger lock bolts. They meet all the codes for attaching a deck ledger to a house. To carry the weight of a deck. They go in without predrilling and are actually cheaper than lags. Here's a link to their site. 
http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/ledgerlok-ledger-board-fastener.html
I promise you'll have no problems. After that a double header in the front and fill in the blanks 16" OC. 3/4" ply top and some pretty trim. Good luck


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

ZMonet
It's unnecessary to nail the cross members if your going to use hangers but the corners should have nails.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks again everyone. I'll post pictures as I progress. I plan on building the frame, attaching to the existing studs (using the fastenmasters Vertigo recommends), cover the frame with 3/4" maple (stain with shelac)remove the existing drywall in the nook (3 sides, plus ceiling) and use Hardiboard to re-cover what was drywalled. Then the moment of truth.

I'm eager to get started and hope to do that tomorrow after getting materials tonight. In building the frame, I have 1.5" Simpson nails. I assume I can use those for the Simpson angles/hangers. Can I use those for just nailing the rest of the frame too? What do I use for the front headerboard (two 2×6s with a 1/2" of plywood sandwiched in between)? Do I use 5" nails or something else?

Thanks again.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

3" deck screws are fine. Screw double 2×6 together. You don't need the plywood. Then if your gonna use tecos (joist hangers) just toenail the joists in through the hangers with 10d nails or the strong tie screws. That thing is gonna hold a Mack truck when your done


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Like this









Those ones that get toe bailed in need to be 3"


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

The only thing I have to add is how tall is the fish tank? Water weigh's about 62 pounds per cubit foot. At 48" wide and 13" deep the height can't be more than 1.8' to get to 500 pounds just for the water alone.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks Vertigo. What do you, or anyone else, suggest to use for the ends of the frame where I don't use the hanger? I would think it would need to be at least 5" since I'm going through two 2×6s into another 2×6, or do I nail one first and then nail it to the second?

Also, could someone confirm whether I should double-up the portion being screwed to the wall studs, or the portion that is being screwed to the mantel? Right now I think it is the mantel side, but I want to confirm.

ChuckC-My understanding is that water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. Add in 60 pounds of rocks and the rest of the aquarium equipment and you're probably right that I'm closer to 600 than 500. All the more reason I need to get this right.

I removed the drywall in the nook tonight, so I'm pretty much all in at this point. At least I'll be able to butt wood against wood (as opposed to wood against drywall). I'll put the Hardieboard in once I have the frame in.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Two of these 








They're about 30cents a pop at HD


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks again. I really need to know though, does the side with the two butted 2×4s go against the studs or the open section (non-supported side)? Done with cleaning out the drywall and am going to start on the frame today. Thanks!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi ZMonet
Like Greg said you may think that 600lbs is a lot but with your short spane you really don't have to worry to much about you structure as long as you have a good solid connection to the walls and use simpson connectors on your frame,IMO as a contractor of more than 25 years there's no reason to double up any of the ends ,if you want to double up the front side it won't hurt ,just nail or screw one to the ends of the side 2×4s and put the other one inside the frame nailed or screwed to the outside 2×4 plus the same connectors Greg and I have already suggested.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for the assurance a1Jim. If I'm using the L50Z ties in the corners, how do I lag into the studs? It seems like the L50s block my getting a straight shot into the studs in the corners, which I would think is where most of the weight is going to be supported.

Attaching some pics for better clarity.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

When in doubt, add more nails or screws!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks photos help.
If your going to use lags don't go to large. 1/4"- 3/8Max just prill drill the new wood at an angle so the Lags go into the existing studs as to get a good hold,stay away from the top and bottom at least an inch of your new wood so that the new wood won't crack. It's best when you drill that the lags just slip through the new wood but make a good solid contact into the existing studs, you can pre-drill for them to but the drill should not be any larger the half the diameter of the lags your using.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks! So it is acceptable to put the lags in at an angle? Sorry for the questions, but I don't want to screw this up.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

That's fine,I would also have a washer on the lags for a little more support. I've notice some of my new helpers tend to over tighten lags so the strip out ,so just get them down tight an don't get carried away with over tighting .


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks for keeping us posted it's coming out good


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for the support. A couple more questions:

(1) How many lags+washers/fastenmasters should I be looking to get into each stud?

(2) Does the 3/4" wood placed on top of the frame for the shelf have to be one piece or can I split it at a joist? My guess is that I want one solid piece to evenly distribute weight but wanted to check.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

How many lags depends on their size if you use 1/4" two, if 3/8" one and just one washer per Lag.You can use more than one piece of ply as long as each piece is supported on it's edges.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Got it. Last question. I have a span now of 56". Not including the outer supports of the frame, how many inner supports should I put in? I don't mind overkill, just want to make sure I don't put too few. Right now I was planning on four supports (6 with the ends). Is that too few?

Thanks again. Hope to have the majority of this done today.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

four sounds good an overkill it should be 14" OC


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm making good progress. I need to buy some additional hangers to finish the supports and then buy the plywood for the shelf. Two questions on that:

(1) Should I guy with 1/2" or 3/4" plywood?;

(2) Once I put the plywood on, should I then cover that with the Hardie backerboard as well (I have already covered the other walls)? That would mean the fish tank would sit on the concrete board. Not sure if that is an issue or not, but it would seem to give it better water protection than shelac and since the shelf won't be seen, aesthetic is not an issue.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

With 14" spans your fine with 1/2" if you want to over-kill it use 3/4 ".you can use hardy board or pressure treated plywood.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Glad to hear it's going well. Looking forward to seeing the finished product


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Everything is going well and, structurally, I think everything is very sound. Thanks for everyone's help on that, particularly Vertigo and a1Jim. My entire family loves the semi-finished product. I've attached some pictures below, which really don't even do justice to the finished product.

Note that if I were to finish it out as is, the 1/8th" plywood door would have been painted white to match the rest of the molding. However, I now think the piano hinged door takes away too much of the beauty of the tank, that the ratio of wood hinged door to tank is too high. I'm now thinking of finishing out the picture frame molding, framing out just the tank and trying to do a hinged door, painted the same color as the wall, above the molding.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to achieve this? Would an access panel be better than a hinged door? In short, I have two needs that may require two different solutions:

(1) Daily feeding of the fish that just requires minimal access, such as putting the top picture frame molding on a hinge; and

(2) Monthly/Periodic access to clean the two filters (I'm over-filtering)-requires about 6-8" high and the width of the tank.

Your continued help in finishing this out is very appreciated.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Looking good,If a hinge is already installed it is not really visible in the photos. 1/8th ply seems a bit to thin to be long lasting. 1/4" would be a little more sturdy. I would think about putting some small trim to frame around the edges to give it a more finished look,like the photos. If you think your hinge is unsightly you could just put some blocks behind the panel and ad some velcro to them and the back of your panel.
I would also be concerned about trapping all that moisture with a closed panel ,it seems like it should have a vent in it. something like #3 photo


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks a1Jim. Would the molding prevent the hinged door from moving? This is my first experience with using piano hinges and I had great difficulty not having the door bind on the drywall/molding around it.

On the moisture issue, do you think that is still an issue even though I am using cement board throughout the enclosure?

Here is the latest picture of the tank with the tank framed out. I think this looks much better, regardless of what solution I come up with for access from above.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It sounded like you were unhappy with your hinge set up and after thinking about it I think if it were me I would just have a loose panel connected with magnetic catches like the ones used on cabinet doors and have it look like photo #2 but with the center having vents like in photo #3 of my previous post.If you decide to stay with using hinges and trim you can use thin molding and or install the trim away from the edges enough so it does not bind.
Even though you have constructed the space to withstand moisture you still don't want to develop mold on the top of the opening.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Looks very good you did a great job. You can always do a recessed panel where the panel slides to the sides or hinges in.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for all of the advice. My wife prefers a door that goes flush with the wall so I think I will attempt that. The dimensions of the opening are roughly 7" high by 46" long. My plan is to make a cabinet door that opens on the left side (7" part) by cleaning up the opening and framing it out (behind the drywall). Then, I will construct a door frame and, if I can find the material, use the metal venting a1Jim suggested. I'll try and find a door pull that is functional but not too visible. I'll also use the magnetic furniture stops a1Jim suggested. The whole thing will be painted the color of the drywall surrounding it. Two questions:

(1) what type of cabinet hinges do I need? It looks like I need frameless inset hinges, but is there anything else that would work too to do what I describe?

(2) With such a long span (46"), do you think this is possible? I'm concerned about the door sagging, but maybe it will be so light (having been made of venting and wood frame) that this won't be an issue?

Anything else I am missing and/or is there an easier way?

Thanks!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you are going to hinge the panel then you should hinge it from the top not the side.thats way to long length wise If you have a solid connection on the top use cup hinges,they are strong and adjustable.
If your going to make a new framed door make sure you you have some strong joinery like half lap or open tenon joinery.




























here's the metal

http://www.homedepot.com/b/N-5yc1v/Ntk-Extended/Ntt-perforated+metal?otn=true&wxsOverride=true


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for the link on the metal! Also, are these cup hinges suitable: http://www.amazon.com/Blum-33-3600-Compact-Opening-10-Pack/dp/B005I5KO30/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1388424872&sr=8-5&keywords=cup+hinges

How many cup hinges do you think I should use?

Is there any other alternative you can recommend to join the framed door? I don't have the equipment to make the pieces you have pictured.

Sorry for all the questions, but I want to get this right and I'm feeling like I'm starting to get in over my head.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Two hinges are fine. Have you done dowel joinery before? If not what kind of joinery have you done?










It will take a jig and or dowel centers

Here's the jig

http://www.amazon.com/Task-07300TK-Premium-Doweling-Jig/dp/B000K9PL14/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1388426546&sr=1-3&keywords=doweling+jig

and the centers

http://www.amazon.com/Silverline-Dowel-Centre-Point-8pce/dp/B000T9UCCI


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks! I have limited experience with dowel joinery but that looks doable.

Can you recommend some hinges? I'm getting confused what will work for me. I want something that will allow me to inset, not overlay.

OK, I'm done with the questions and will place the order after I get your feedback on the hinges. Thanks again!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Here's a video about how to install cup hinges,the rest of the video does not really pertain to what your doing.
I like Blum brand hinges they come in a variety of degrees they open,the clips are usally sold seperatly,you need to make sure you get the cabinet mount clips not face frame mount clips.

These might work even though their not blum brand

http://www.amazon.com/European-Cabinet-Concealed-Close-Overlay/dp/B004QW0NLE/ref=sr_1_49?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1388430012&sr=1-49&keywords=blum+hinges+for+cabinets

If you can buy them locally they should be able to make sure you have the right clips for the job.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks again. For the clips you link to, they say they are for half-overlay. I think what I'm trying to figure out is whether it matters for my application whether they are half overlay/full overlay or inset. It seems like I can set the hinge where I want to get the depth I want. If so, would these at Home Depot work? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-1-3-8-in-European-110-Degree-Full-Overlay-Hinge-1-Pair-HC11SFC-NP-C5/100128843#

Also, if you have that link to the video on installing hinges you referenced that might be very helpful.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Those hinges don't have the correct clip they need to connect to the top of your opening not a face frame,look at the link below you can see the difference of how the hinges connect to a cabinet.
Here's a link for inset hinges, if you scroll down they offer a 35 mm forstner bit also,you will need that to drill the hole for the cup part of the hinge.


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks! I get what you're talking about now. I ordered everything and will get the wood/metal materials in ready to try taking on this job.

Have a great New Year!


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

OK, finally got around to building everything out. Unfortunately the metal piece I got from Home Depot wasn't wide enough for the size of the door and I needed to butt the seam. I think I'm going to live with it for the time being. The only things left to do are caulk/paint it and put some sort of knob on it to make opening it easier. On the paint, I'm not sure if I'll keep the access panel door and trim white and the metal the same, to paint the access panel and trim the same color as the drywall (to obscure it more), or keep the trim white and paint just the access panel door (metal and trim) the color of the drywall. Any thoughts there? Also, any suggestions on the door knob (where to put it, what to use, etc.)? I'm likely looking to keep the door knob as obscured as possible.

Thanks again for everyone's help, particularly a1Jim and Vertigo. I'm really happy with how it came out regardless of these little finishes.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I would stay with white, and two very small white knobs. perhaps on the bottom rail 6-8"from each of the bottom corners.


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## TheGermanJoiner (Dec 1, 2013)

Looks good buddy


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## ZMonet (Dec 18, 2013)

Just wanted to provide an update, about two years later. The fish tank still stands and, thankfully, I haven't had any problems. Access is a little difficult and, at 5'8", I need to use a small step stool to reach up and feed the fish or do any maintenance, but overall I love the tank. Would I do it again? In a second. Thanks for everyone's help-really appreciate it.

Here are the final pics.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Look good.


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