# Why do you hate Sawstop



## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

So I have posted a few times here asking about sawstop. I have noticed that there is a group of people out there who seam to have a very strong opinion against it. Before I plop down 2K of my hard earned money on one I want to here from the 'haters' why they don't like sawstop. Please keep it clean and factual.

With that said I also would like to tell you why I want on. I spend about 5-20 hours a week in my shop, I don't do wood working for a living I am in IT and can not do my job if my hands are injured. Between missing work, recovery time and the medical bills I view sawstop as an insurance policy. I do not view it as justification to be less careful in the shop.

Discuss!

-AG


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## jmichaeldesign (Oct 12, 2010)

I worked in my college woodshop where we had two of them. In this setting they were nightmares. Changing blades almost always meant resetting the distance between the blade and brake. I was constantly looking up what the flashing light sequences meant and fixing them. I got really sick of flipping the switch to turn the saw on, only to get an error code instead of a spinning blade.

We had previously had a powermatic and a general which were both 5hp machines. I really missed the ability to rip though 8/4 maple like it was nothing when we went down to the 3hp machines.

That being said they are great saws that are really well thought out. In a one man shop where you are the only one changing blades and other settings I have to believe that you will have few in any problems with it. The riving knife was an option that only sawstop had at the time and it is fantastic. When I have the money to buy a new saw I probably won't buy a sawstop, but I will get a saw with a riving knife. In all reality the sawstop does a great job preventing ever needing its most notable safety feature. A lot of other saw's have followed in its footsteps only leaving out the brake.

A lot of guys will complain that its made in taiwan, but so is the Unisaw at this point.

It is really expensive, but if you can afford it without going hungry you won't regret it.

Plus you're in IT so having a computer in your saw won't piss you off as much as it does the rest of us.


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## wmodavis (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm definately not a fan of SS. Nifty idea, good use of technology etc BUT…

I disagree with the way it is being promoted - through the courts and lawyers (including the inventor).
I think it sends the wrong message about safety and at a pretty high cost to the user. That message is 'you dont have to be so careful we'll protect you'.
Regular old unsafe table saws have been used safely for eons by people who respect a moving blade and don't want to get their blood all over it. 
My unsafe table saw drew a tad of my blood one time but that only served to heightened my respect for what could happen if I let my guard down around that blade. I'd rather have personal vigilence than someone's promise that their high tech instant stop blade can make up for not thinking safety. And what about your other dangerous power tools. Maybe we'll be required to get a SS brand bandsaw or planer, or jig saw, or router, or hammer, or …...


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

In my humble opinion, the Sawstop line of table saws (contractor through cabinet) is the best made and sold to the woodworking community in America today. This includes the quality and workmanship of the metal and cast iron parts in general, its weight, and its fit and finish. If you have the budget this is the brand to buy.


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## twokidsnosleep (Apr 5, 2010)

I got an email ad from saw stop that posted to their web site. There are a number of videos of guys who had accidents and wished they had a saw stop.
The video that freaked me was the dentist who said "my hands are my life, I was being careful" Stuff happens beyond our control and accidents do happen. I want a saw stop as the next saw for me, my fingers and my kids who are getting more into woodworking as they get older.


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## newbiewoodworker (Aug 29, 2010)

I am kinda in the same boat as Bill here. It seems like the inventor is doing more of a "You wouldn't buy my invention, so now, I am going to make this a 'you legally have to' matter.."

Technology can always fail; I don't, personally, want that complacancy, of thinking it can't harm me. If that break fails to trigger, and I didn't exercise the caution, I would with a regular table saw, then I am still going to be injured.

For generations, our fore-fathers used table saws. And they were relatively unharmed.. and, probably a little more recklace. The problem is, people of my generation(the teenagers, to mid-30s) seem to be more involved with getting that new harddrive to spin, than getting that sawblade to spin.
-But its when this newer generation decides "Oh, just because I have never used a table saw, doesn't mean I can't use one to build this [insert project]." Thats when people get hurt.. 
---Not to mention complacancy. I witnessed my shopteacher-a contractor, use his hand as a push block over a dado head. If it kicked, it would have given a new meaning to "Red Raum".. This is another time when people get hurt..

I don't want to sound like the grinch…. or offend anyone.. but Common-sense is the best preventative measure of all.. Most injuries are caused by lack there of, or by complacancy.

If this inventor sees his way, in court, then we may well be facing a monopoly. Since I am pretty certain its copywritten out the gazoo.. And soon, it will be law, to buy only SS Jointers, Planers(if you are dumb enough[not trying to offend anyone here] to stick your hand in a planer, you deserve to lose it… its fully enclosed for a reason…lol), Skil Saws, Bandsaws, Scroll Saws(someone once said "You can cut your finger off with a scroll saw; But you would need to change the blade a couple times"), Drill Presses, Routers, Drills, Nailers, etc… 99% of which are safe enough, if you pay attention… Granted the jointer and skil saw are the only ones that really frighten me… One because the skil saw tried to chew my leg off one day, when it kicked.. And two, because in a jointer..what goes in.. doesnt come out..well.. it does.. as Handburger[lol]...


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I don't hate SawStop, but for the money I would never buy 
a cabinet style saw in the American style where the rip fence
is the major reference for squaring panels. Format style saws
are a better design, imo, and invite less risky behavior.

Furthermore, the more common danger on a tablesaw is kickback,
not flesh amputation by the blade - which is (dare I say?) always 
a result of stupid or complacent work habits.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

AG -

I too found the polarization of the SS camps very interesting when I was doing my research. I have read a lot (LOT) of these discussions, and it seems like it comes down to a few key reasons why some don't like SS:

1) Machisimo
2) Not made in USA like its main price-quality-competitive saw (Unisaw)
3) How Steve Gass went about trying to get companies to adopt his technology before he decided to make the saws himself and specifically the implications for how much control the government should have over our lives (this gets political)

While the discussion is interesting, everyone has to do what's right for them, and you don't have to justify your reasons to anyone. Ultimately, once you have the saw in your shop, it makes sawdust like any other tablesaw, and hopefully you'll never even need to know what makes yours unique.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I am personally one of the "haters" of sawstop. Truth be told though, if you've read some of my responses to other posts concerning the sawstop technology, I don't hate it at all. As a matter of fact, I think it is just about the best invention since sliced bread.
So when am I going to buy one? Two days after never.
It's way out of my price range. 
I like the fact that I'm extra cautious around my Ridgid 3650. That cautiousness also makes me think carefully before I do anything on it. I do see the great potential for carelssness with the sawstop at the same inopportune moment that the technology also decides to take a crap. I prefer shop safety on my own accord as opposed to shop safety by any other remote activated technology. I wish not to get into the argument about sawstop technology doesn't give you the reason to act carelessly. I am perfectly aware of this. I'm not an idiot. Speaking from experience though, I also know that I want at least one of my seven sons to learn woodworking from me. That would be hard of all of them took the same stand as my son that took woodshop at school with a sawstop. After using it at school I can't get through his thick head that this technology doesn't take away a users responsibility to act cautiously. Today's generation thinks technology is the answer to lack of common sense. That is dangerous.
I don't like at all the way the inventor of the sawstop technology has carried out getting said technology on the market. As soon as he realized that manufactorers weren't going to buy his invention, he never considered finding ways to make it more affordable. He just made his own saws, which was fine. Then when a lawsuit came about that made the headlines, and served his purpose well, then he jumped on that bandwagon and helped for the current push to have the sawstop technology mandated in all saws. While the technology is great, I won't buy it anyway if the government is attempting to shove it down our throats. Beyond that, I think anyone who reads up about that case that got this giant ball of wax rolling would agree that any of us could have found better examples of shoddy safety features on saws than to use that joke of a case as a stepping stone. I feel like the use of that case shed a light on all woodworkers as being complete idiots.
So, after stating all this, I will say, if there was any way possible for me to afford a Sawstop, then one would already be sitting in my shop. That brings up the other argument I've had thrown in my face over and over. "Well just think how much your fingers are worth to you versus the cost of the sawstop!" Look, I'm not even going to make the argument of whether the technology is priced fairly or not. I have no idea what goes into making and marketing it. Hell, the man may be going broke selling it for all I know. What I do know is that as much as I love my fingers, I can't put my family in hock up to our eyeballs for several years to buy a saw, and YES, my financial situation is that bad. Therefore, the value versus price argument doesn't hold water with me either. They are simply way out of my price range as they are for most woodworkers I know.


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## Uncle_Salty (Dec 26, 2009)

Great points from both sides. I teach both Middle and High School shop. My shop does NOT have a Saw Stop (at present). I have two Unisaws (a '64 model and a 2002 Model). Both Unisaws have splitters and guards on them. Both saws guards/splitters are removable. Both saws have a wide array of throat inserts, push sticks, miter guages, crosscut sleds, miter sleds, etc.

All that being said, I have to agree that the Saw Stop is a wonderful piece of… technology! The electronic wizardry is amazing.

Now, for my version of the bad news. In my own personal 23 years of teaching, I am the only person in my shop(s) that has had a flesh to blade contact of any sort on the table saw. I was cutting a piece of 1/4" ply to size up a drawer bottom (about 14" x 11"; it was in, what I call, the "no push stick zone!), and, for some reason that I haven't been able to discern (or reproduce, thankfully), the ply kicked back and to the left, dragging my right ring finger over the saw blad on its way. The blade cut vertically through the finger tip, missing the bone, but cutting through the finger nail and the pad of the finger. 6 stitches and half a day of lost work, and I was back in business… with a new appreciation for safety.

I classify all saw mishaps as accidents. Regardless of the severity of injury, or lack thereof. Any time any problem occurs, I make all the students shut down, gather around, and we talk about "what happened and why it happened. We also discuss how to prevent what happened.

Most problems stem from students doing things that can't or shouldn't be done, or by not following proper safety techniques. Things they have been taught, things they know, things they think they can get away with. I remind them that, even though I can't see everything, I can hear almost everything! And the table saw is one unforgiving SOB! It doesn't care what you THINK you can get away with; it simply follows the laws of physics. It is the great equalizer.

I can't disagree with the statement that most saw accidents are from kickbacks. But why these kickbacks occur is the problem that even Saw Stop can't address.

Proper use of guards, splitters, hold downs and pushsticks, as well as proper techniques, will eliminate virtually ALL kickbacks. But techinques are equally important.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

"Hate the game not the player" The technology involved in making Saw Stop what it is is advanced and groundbreaking. Sure you might disagree with the marketing style, or scare tactics as the haters call them..I like to call them a little slice of reality. To stand there and say with impunity that your xx years in woodworking and your safe practices are all you need to keep you from having an accident is pure stupidity. ACCIDENTS are just that..unforeseen elements, or situations that cause unexpected results. Wood moves and expands when you cut it…people loose concentration or get distracted for a millisecond…and that's all it takes to loose a finger. I mean really…how many people that have had bad table saw accidents say they weren't concentrating, or weren't' being careful…that's as brilliant as somebody posting a while back in a similar thread "just don't put your finger near the sharp spiny thing"...pure genius..
I agree that Saw Stop is an expensive safety feature, but the saws are really well built and are just as nice as the top of the line non saw stops in their category. Should the government get involved and mandate the technology….no. Is that person justified in suing Ryobi for not having Saw Stop technology on their saws….ludicrous bull******************** dreamed up by some ambulance chasing lawyers. Thats as brilliant as suing the tobacco companies because you chose to smoke.
My opinion is…if you want one, and can afford it then get one. If you don't then don't. I know that insurance companies are giving commercial woodshops huge breaks on their rates if they upgrade to Saw Stop. I think that all high school woodshops should have nothing but Saw Stops in them….here is a perfect place for that technology..you have inexperienced woodworkers, with young hands that have to last them the rest of their lives..whether you are on board for Saw Stop or not you should see the value in that. As far as for myself…i love my Unisaw….but if I had the money I would sell it and get a 3HP Saw Stop. The way I look at it..I am a safe woodworker, I always use my push sticks and I trust my gut..I f something doesn't feel safe I don't attempt it…..but I feel that the Saw Stop technology is lurking in the background…siting and waiting for that unknown moment..that millisecond of lack of focus..and it will be there to turn a tragic accident into a band aid..or maybe a stich or two…I like those odds.

Also when the inventor of the Saw Stop took his invention to all the major players in the industry, none of them were interested in using it. They all said they didn't want to put that on their saws because it was like admitting that table saws are dangerous and might cause injury. DUH! It was only then that he decided to build his own line of saws.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

I am a fan.. I own one, and would almost be confident to say it will be the last saw I ever buy.. having said that.. some of the opinions about the saw are misguided.

I do not know about the contractor Sawstop as far as pricing, so I can only comment on the cabinet model.

*Price -* They are expensive, but if you are shopping for a proffessional cabinet saw, you are shopping high price range. If you compare proffessional cabinet saws, the Sawstop and the Delta Unisaw are on "almost" the same playing field. *They are both the same price*, so there is no argument there. If you would not buy Sawstop due to cost, then you would not buy a Unisaw because of cost. So pricing should NOT be involved in the discussion. Why shop for a Pinto, yet bitch about the price of Cadillac.

*Safety* "People will not work safe because they will rely on sawstop technology to prevent them from injuries" - The only comment I can make about this, is please take all sharp objects away from all these people, and ensure the lid is tight on the turpentine container.. come on.. seriously ?

*Litigation* - The inventor ( a guy looking to make something to become rich ) went to every major player in the tablesaw business, and offered them the technology he invented, at what was likely a crazy amount of money, ( whole idea of inventing things ) they said "no".. so he took the initiative to built a saw around it. The market went crazy, and because as well as having a doctorate in physics, he is a lawyer.. Gass and two of his lawyer buddies saw great potential with.. litigation. Now the lawyers are doing what lawyers do.. suing & canvasing politics through the courts to make their fortune. Stephen Gass invented one of the greatest safety features for woodworkers ever…and now everyone hates him.. envy ..would likely be a better word.

This, my friends is the only thing that blemishes the Sawstop name… not design flaws, or the lack of user friendly features, but a group of lawyers trying to get a piece of the action on every table saw sold in the world.. I wish I would have thought of it… and so do most of you… but that is for another day.

Some people spend so much time on their soap boxes, that they don't realize the best things in life are at eye level. 
They spend all day long watching television, microwaving lunch, watching the coffee maker, checking their watch for the time, all on appliances they paid for with their hard earned money, that were built offshore, while typing on their computer built in Tiawan, that you should not buy something because it was not forged in Detroit by the blood sweat and tears of Bill Smith, a true American blue collar worker. Give me frigging strength..

Agallant.. if you ask a group of people what they hate… you will spend a life time wrapped up in so much negativity, you will start to see the light grow dim around you… run my friend… run.. before it is too late.

As far as the sawstop haters.. they don't hate the player.. they hate the game…. 
I have not heard one concrete comment about why you should not buy one.. not one comment about flaws, or problems with the actual abilities of a proffessional cabinet saw.. because it is a great saw… all I see is a bunch of people wanting to argue politics.. So don't let that cloud your opinion. Sift through all the hate, discontent & crap, ask yourself how long you want to be a woodworker ?

The tablesaw is by far the most important tool you can purchase for your shop, so spend your money wisely, buy the best saw you possibly can, no matter what brand it is because you don't want to have to do it again in 5 years. I would have bought the Sawstop even if it did not have the safety technolgy, it is that good of a saw.

I am the lover of a great cabinet saw, that just happens to be built by some guys in Taiwan who do one great job of following plans that were designed elsewhere.

Gator


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## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

Count me as a hater for the marketing and cram it down our throats with the governments help angle. The tech in the saw is amazing.

Keep in mind the guy is a patent lawyer, he is just out to make a buck, not make you safer. Only you can make yourself safer.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I have to agree with JBfrom MN. Is the SS guy doing all this legal stuff for free? What charities get his profits (like Paul Newman). I have cut myself with a razor but didn't sue the manufacturer. Any power tool is only as safe as the operator. If one is afraid of an accident with a TS, use a hand saw like the oldtimers did before power tools were invented! The Amish get along quite well with hand tools. BTW, I made my soapbox from scrap lumber.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Impressive collection of strong opinions. From what I've heard, the Sawstop is a very well made TS, safety features aside. I am skeptical about the ability of the saw to save you from a serious injury, despite the videos of hotdogs being pushed through the blade; in real life kickback and your hand slipping into the blade happens in a fraction of a second and I'm not sure that the brake would really be effective. There doesn't seem to be many stories online of people having fingers saved by the Sawstop technology either.


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## RogerBean (Apr 25, 2010)

I don't normally comment on topics like this, but for what it's worth, if you are more comfortable with a SawStop, and can afford it, then you should buy it, use it, and enjoy it. Seems like a really good saw.

For myself, I've used a Unisaw for 25 years, and after throwing away the original fence, have had no problem with kickbacks. The replacement Biesmeyer was good, but I currently use an Incra LS positioner fence. While my shop is conspicuously absent most guards and other safety items, I am of the school that if you're not really comfortable with a particular operation, then don't do it! Use push sticks, and feather boards, and zero clearance inserts. I'm in no way advocating unsafe practices, but this is what seems to work for me. Likewise, I see nothing wrong with a SawStop. Trust your instincts and keep your fingers.
Roger


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I'll add one additional point of concern. I have a friend with a SS. His blade break tripped because of a fluctuation in the electrical power. Of course, that is expensive and a lot of hassle. You must buy a new break and a new blade.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

Go to sawstops website.. they have a testimonial page for T/S accidents with saves…. 
The brake activates in 1/5,000 of a second.. ten times faster than the airbag in a car.. yes.. I drank to koolaide… LOL

I hope I have not offended anyone here, as I am trying to keep it light.. and NON POLITICAL ..

My point is most of the saw bashing has everything to do with politics, and nothing to do with the saw…

I made my soapbox with my sawstop.. and got a sliver using my jointer .. I wonder if Gass is working on jointer & planer technology next.. maybe electric razors… hey.. staplers are crazy dangerous in the wrong hands…. LOL


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I am not too passionate about this debate, but I am interested in some of the details. From the SS website:
"All this happens in about 3-5 milliseconds, or *1/200th of a second*."

Not all hand/blade contacts are slow and steady like Roy Underhill in the video with the chicken leg. I wonder about the cases where the cause of the contact is kickback pulling the hand into the back of the blade. Assume that the blade is 10" and is turning at 3600 RPM. The tips of the blade are going 1,885 inches per second. In the worst case, the hand would also be moving at 1,885 inches per second. In the time that the brake takes to react, the hand would move about 9.4 inches. Suppose that the hand is only moving at 1/10 the speed of the blade. That would still be almost an inch in the 1/200th of a second reaction time.


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## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

Kickback is the reason my thumb needed a few stitches once. I was ripping a small piece, should have done it a different way, the accident was my fault really, but the board road up on the blade and my thumb went in its place. So I would say while they "Record" the injuries as lacerations, the reason for the laceration in the first place was kickback of some kind. How many lacerations would be caused by someone just pushing their digits into the spinning blade? The wood does something that makes the users come into contact with the blade. I may be generalizing the term, but I would think that MOST lacerations are caused by kickback.

Now Gass would have me sue Ridgid saying the Manufacture of the saw was liable for my own stupidity, that is why I am agaisnt it. I live by personal responsibility, I should have found a different way to do what I was attempting. Same holds true for the contractor using the Ryobi saw in the lawsuit IMO, but the jury of idiots thought otherwise.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Brad-Nailor* wrote:

"Also when the inventor of the Saw Stop took his invention to all the major players in the industry, none of them were interested in using it. They all said they didn't want to put that on their saws because it was like admitting that table saws are dangerous and might cause injury. DUH! It was only then that he decided to build his own line of saws.
"

I heard it a little bit differently, from a couple of industry insiders.

Goss wanted something like $700/saw to license his technology to the other TS manufacturers.

They simply couldn't make the numbers work, on paper, with a $700/saw increase in their costs.

I would love to own one. I would only like to own one *more* if he weren't clearly behind so much litigation that seems aimed at nothing but enriching himself. That part does bug me.

But it doesn't surprise me.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

The Internet is replete with love/hate polarizations. 
The opposite of love is not hate, it is *disinterest*.

My professional woodworking is based upon the acquisition of skills, not tools. I designed my business accordingly. While some woodworkers may require a table saw, I have designed my business around other types of wood cutting devices. I also consider safety as a major factor in choosing the tools that will support the skills that I need to do my woodworking. I focus on the flow of skills--> designs--> materials--> tools.

There are many ways to make and use a table saw in a safer manner. The current SawStop technology is only one way. Once free market competition catches up with better ways of making automated wood cutting devices; think beyond the ubiquitous table saw; the SawStop technology will fade as a bump on the road to better ways.


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## Brian024 (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm along the line of the repsonse The Woodwhisper had in one of his videos about the saw stop. He said that if you are using all of the safety features (guard, anti kickback, push stick) and are using common sense, the chance of accident is reduced to almost none.

There have been plenty of times I have read on here and other sites about someone just needing to make a quick cut and they "didn't have time to- set my guard, grab a push stick".


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## khays (Aug 16, 2009)

I would say the saw would help out inexperienced woodworkers more than experienced ones for sure. I have been in the IT field for 19 years and I can agree the technology is there on the SS. Would I buy one, no.

I firmly believe you have to have a great deal of respect for your power tools. Never get too confident and take them for granted. I had a friend, just starting out that thought he knew a lot about the stuff, tried to advise him not to use the rip fence while crosscutting a 2×4. He didn't listen and two days later or so he cut his finger. My point is always use safety like Loren and a few others have said and always have respect for the tools. Soon as that respect goes away is when you are in danger.

It's almost like saying that SS is wanting to push this technology on everyone like Obama wants to make everyone have health insurance. That's another topic to discuss though.


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## FishMontana (Sep 14, 2010)

This thread is really interesting. And I am sure this response will ruffle some feathers.

The part I do not get is why no one asks what the other saw manufacturers were doing. As an engineering student 20 years ago, my fellow students and I could have designed a braking system similar to what SS is using (and that was 20 years ago). Why didn't the saw manufacturers do that? Why do they seem to be so reluctant at making their products more safe? When do we as a buying public hold them more accountable?

Can you imagine if the car industry took the same approach as the saw makers-we will sell you the product but you need to make it safe? We all would be buying cars where we had to tie ourselves to the seats because there would be no seatbelts. I am just hoping the SS flap is a wake-up call to other manufacturers. Safety is important. It does sell. And your buyers do care about it.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Just ask the people with hand injuries what they think ,do they wish they had a SS before their accidentds ?
Who cares if you don't like the inventors approach it's about you and you safety. How much will your doctors fees be if you injure your hand not to mention the pain and possible life long loss of fingers. The're well made saws and should last a life time. Don't wait *BUY IT*


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Exactly, Jim..I would love any Saw Stop hater to find me a victim of a table saw blade contact injury and see if they didn't wish their saw was equipped with that kind of fail safe.

Neil…ya, now that you mention it I do remember the article that I read stated that a few of the manufacturers were interested but couldn't make the numbers work..but the big players, like Delta, General, Powermatic, Jet…didn't want to put them on thier saws for fear of admitting that the saws themselves carried an implied safety risk…like they didn't already!
CharlieL wrote:
The day that I'm forced to buy one, will be the day that I hangup woodworking.
Can somebody please force Woodchuck to buy a Saw Stop…


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

You can survive without one. All you need is some good eyes, common sense, riving knife and your good to go.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

I bought the SawStop for the quality of saw it is and the safety feature was an added bonus. Now SawStop is focusing on another safety feature; dust management ~ and judging from their demo at my local Woodcraft, I'd say they nailed it. With all of that, I'll STILL be super cautious and not take the saw for granted. I'm not going to retire my dust mask, ear protection, safety glasses, push sticks/blocks, feather boards or anything else that makes using the saw much safer.

BTW - There's a certain LJ that pushes his Delta "dust hood" and then complains about SS pushing their technology; hypocrite!!!

Ditto Brad_Nailor


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Okay - my comment about kickback being the most common way to get
hurt on a tablesaw is simply from personal experience. I've had kickback 
happen several times and been hurt by it maybe 3 times.

Admittedly however I've jammed a finger between a fence or something
and mashed it.

I have also bumped and probably dropped a tablesaw on part of my body
while moving it. I have also, no doubt, given myself lots of little ouches 
moving table saw fences, got splinters and bashed my knuckles on table
adjustments.

Come to think of it, I've hurt myself on a table saw dozens of times but never
once did it happen by me bringing my skin in contact with a moving blade.
I've been hurt badly enough to comment on it probably twice and in both
cases it was from being hit in the stomach by a workpiece kicking back.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

@bentlyj - you can disable the safety feature for wet lumber. you can even test the lumber before firing the saw up by touching the blade with the questionable lumber. I've never tripped the brake in the year plus I've been using my SS.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

Instead of looking at the quality of A TABLE SAW ..you guys are arguing the actions and morals of a group of lawyers… and you ( say ) you are willing to pass up owning this saw because of it.. that will show them….. toooo funny…..

There is no premium price for this cabinet saw.. only premium features, and it makes my work in the shop better, I did not buy it because I felt safer using it than using my Delta.. I treat it the same as any saw I have ever used.. with common sense… I bought it because it is a good saw, even if I have to admit my wife says I am much more handsome now that I have it.. (*_^)

Okay.. this is just way more fun than I can handle…I gotta head back to the shop..

Have fun everyone… play nice.

Gator


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Anything that makes our tools safer is a good thing. But in lieu of blade-break technology, I feel pretty good about having my sharkguard/splitter installed, as well as a fence that I know locks down parallel to the blade each time.

But psychology is a powerful thing. I'd love to have it on my Unisaw and I have considered buying a Sawstop just because of that technology. There's no question that it works and I would feel much better about that.

Table saws scare a lot of people. In fact, I've seen several experienced woodworkers find reasons NOT to own a table saw, choosing to use other tools instead…a band saw, circular saw, and router can pretty much make a TS unnecessary. Likewise, I think many of your fringe home-owning, would-be hobbyists choose NOT to buy a table saw because of the fear-factor.

The irony is that Sawstop does not need to drum-up a market…it's already there. What they need is a way to implement that technology to cheaper saws. IMHO, a bench-top model with blade-break technology would sell.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I don't have anything against SawStop … I don't have one, but I'm taking WW classes at a local tech school that has 3 tablesaws in the cabinet shop (an older Northfield, a 90's-vintage UniSaw, and a 2009 SawStop cabinet saw).

I like using the SawStop, but it is a PITA to switch out blades … especially going from a standard 10" rip blade to an 8" dado stack. The blinking lights comment above sure rings true.

The thing I have learned about using all of these tools is that the safe operating procedures must be observed on any machine you use … they can all hurt you, but if you focus on safe operation, think about what you are doing, and respect the tool, you greatly reduce the chance of injury.

I think if I had ample funds (and space) for a new saw at home, I would probably go for a SawStop … I am confident that overcoming any idiosyncrasies would just be a matter of getting used to the saw and operational procedures.

But since I am not flush with cash and am not going to be able to move into a bigger shop any time soon, I'll just have to continue to make do with my Jet JWTS-10.

-Gerry


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

I rather buy a Delta Unisaw that supports some US jobs than jobs oversea.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Steven H: Which is exactly the reason I drive a Toyota.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I am going to invoke the thread killer. Thank you everyone for the input.


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

Woodchuck, you keep saying you could care less, but you keep posting on this and every other SawStop-related thread. Looks to me like you couldn't care more.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

Where's the love CharlieL? give me some credit, I didn't call your "one-year-to-perfect dust hood" a "$2 HVAC fitting".


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## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

Quoted from another post

Can you imagine if the car industry took the same approach as the saw makers-we will sell you the product but you need to make it safe? We all would be buying cars where we had to tie ourselves to the seats because there would be no seatbelts. I am just hoping the SS flap is a wake-up call to other manufacturers. Safety is important. It does sell. And your buyers do care about it.

You are right safety is important, and we as the consumer in a free market, can choose to purchase a SS for the safety feature. However, if Gass gets his way your FREEDOM to choose is taken away. At what point do you say enough is enough??? If the saw is so great, let the free market decide.


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## jdt (Jan 18, 2010)

I guess I am the only one here who has had a finger save by a SawStop. I have written about it in 2 other threads so I won't go into it again. Was I careless? Yes. Was I careless because I have a SawStop? No way. I treat it like it has no safety feature. I just screwed up, that's all, and the only price I paid was a blade because SS replaced the cartridge for free. I am very grateful it worked as advertised.

In case you may be thinking my accident may have been due to inexperience I have owned 4 tables saws over the past 30 years and done a fair amount of woodworking. The only other wound of significance was from a bandsaw many years ago.

Do I care what anyone thinks about it? Not a chance. I bought the saw for two reasons, it is one heck of a saw and the safety feature is a bonus not available anywhere else. Period, end of story.

This is like arguing about motorcycle helmets. There are a great number who fight tooth and nail against any helmet law but will be first in line to get any type of government benefits or government paid medical care when their cracked skull renders them helpless.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

@jmichaeldesign-Actually, the Delta UniSaw is built in Jackson, Tennessee and about 80% of the components Delta uses are made in the USA … my brother-in-law works in the factory in Wisconsin where the tabletop and wings are cast and milled.

-Gerry


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I will not buy it for two reasons, price and the marketing. Pricing the technology too high for others to take was intentional. This is a "control" game. He wants it all and will take everyone down if he can. I think it is much more than than money. I think he just wanted to create the technology and everyone else do the work. Once it came down to doing the work, he wants "pay back" and to shut down all other players.

Wait till he encounters a DOJ attny, filing a monopoly suit. Sometimes it is the principle of the thing.

Who are we going to sue when we get cut by those pesky little chisels and handplanes - after all it is all the chisel manufacturer's fault that we get cut. Is there anyone going to save us from them or should we just outlaw everything that is sharp.


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## croessler (Jun 22, 2007)

Let me put this from a different point of view:

I lost my right index finger in a munitions handling accident while in the military. I was VERY fortunate that they were able to re-attach the finger and make it functional. It took several years before I recovered most of the dexterity in the hand due to nerve damage. I still have zero feeling in that finger….

Due to this I am exceedingly paranoid around my tools. If I were to purchase a new saw I would definitely consider the Saw Stop brand because I do not wish to push my luck and loose a digit again. Does that mean it's the only one I would consider? no… But, it would be in the list.

If you have ever been injured in a similar manner you know my view point…

Regards


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## Dcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I read an article recently in a woodworking magazine that changed my views on SawStop. The article was about a guy who got hired to do some contracting work and part of the job was using a small table saw. This guy had NEVER used one before but his boss showed him how to use it and warned him of the dangers. The article goes on to say that the guy ended up getting his fingers and hand cut badly during a very unsafe attempt at ripping a 2×4. The saw that was being used was a small Ryobi job site saw.

The guy got a lawyer and they went on to sue Ryobi on the basis that Ryobi neglected to use SawStop technology and produced an unsafe saw. They claimed had Ryobi had the SawStop features this would have never happened. The court ended up finding Ryobi more then 60 percent responsible for the injury and this guy was awarded 1 million dollars!

I was really upset after reading the article. I don't feel in any way it was Ryobi's fault. It was lack of experience and safety of the user and or poor teaching from his boss. A few more cases like this could force some of these other companies to change the saws which would make them far more expensive.

I have no problem with SawStop and I am sure its a great saw but to hold other companies up to the same safety standard is a bit much. I have never once come close to cutting my fingers or hand on the TS. I have experienced kickback a few times though and thats far more scary IMO.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

I tinged my finger in the jointer, my fault - not the manufacture's fault. I do understand what you are saying. Let the market determine who wins, not legislation.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

JimT said:
"This is like arguing about motorcycle helmets. There are a great number who fight tooth and nail against any helmet law but will be first in line to get any type of government benefits or government paid medical care when their cracked skull renders them helpless."

What the Hail does THAT have to do with SS or this thread/conversation? Why not take that "finger" you saved and place it a very dark safe place… it may help get you back on subject. BTW, I tried to check out your "LJ woodshop" to see your SS setup, but found nothing….............................................


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The whole thing boils down to accountability. People have to take responsibility of their own actions. If you believe that StopSaw is the tool for you, it doesn't matter - buy it.

But if the inventor of StopSaw is trying to legislatively make his saw the only toy available, I won't give him a dime. I will use my Disstons first.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

What it comes down to is..personal choice..if you like it buy it…if you don't..then don't.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I think it is a great saw for anyone who is not comfortable with their power tools . As for me i grew up with tools all my life so i would never waste the money to buy a expensive saw like Saw stop . 
I have always used cheap table saws and never had a problem . If i do lose a finger that is ok because i still have 9 more ;-))


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## Beeguy (Jun 11, 2008)

lI almost had a $100 because of SS. About a year and a half ago a guy was giving a demo. Before he started he threw a $100 bill on the saw and asked for any volunteers. Most were chuckling and shaking their heads when I stepped forward with my finger out streached. He was faster at grabbing back up the bill than I was.
(This is a true story.)

My logic was if it worked I would have a small nick and $100. If it did not work, I would have a cut finger and who knows how much money after I sued the company. They have already pointed out that you should not be responsible for your actions.

Honestly, if I had the money I would buy one in a heart beat. Quite a few woodworkers I know have missing or funny shaped fingers. This included my dad who taught me by example as to what not to do. From what I have seen these are really well built machines.

I do detest what they are doing in the courts. They are unable to get a larger slice of the saw market for the same reason other saw makers turned them down. The cost drives the price out of the reach of many individuals. Since they can't compete, they are trying to tilt the playing field in their favor. Too bad because it is a really nice saw and safety concept.

But what do I know. I am from PA where our Lawyer-Governor complains because the NFL postphoned a football game because of a blizzard hitting the area. Since he has less than a month in office I suppose he saw the loss of injury related law suits affecting his future income potential.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

Ron, it's an interesting (albeit pointless) hypothetical you pose.

There's no doubt in my mind that if your SS does not fire when it was supposed to and you get injured, you would probably be able to win a lawsuit against SS.

But I wonder what would happen if the SS did not fire while you were demo-ing the saw to a friend and purposely put your finger in the blade to test it? Sure would be a fun case…


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I don't hate SawStop at all….seems like a nice machine with some good technology, but I really hate the communistic attempts to mandate the technology on us. Like many things, it should be a choice.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

To me it's just overblown hype that doesn't address the number one cause of table saw accidents: KICKBACK. I worry more about kickback than I do about losing my focus and cutting off a finger. I also have low regard for a company that is capitalizing on idiot user's accidents to convince the government to require their technology on all table saws.

I've survived lawn darts, lead paint, asbestos, and everything else that the government eventually chose to outlaw to "protect" us so I think I can survive an unintelligent table saw.


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

A lot of opinions. Everyone has one, but who is right?

My advise is to research what you want to buy and buy the one *YOU* want. There is no reason anyone should buy something just because this guy says so or that guy says no. In addition, there is no reason for anyone to berate and belittle another just because he/she chose to do something for himself/herself.

Buy the saw you want and go make some sawdust!


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## Cozmo35 (Feb 1, 2010)

*"IN MY OPINION"*...I think this whole world has become too "careful". We all survived riding in the back seat of the Family station wagon without seat belts. We ate food cooked in lard. We didn't wear helmets when riding bicycles. *Where and when do we take responsibility for our own actions? *Why do we need "laws" (which is only someone else opinion who happens to have some power) to protect us from ourselves? It is VERY hard for me to swallow this kinda (*IMO*) crap. I am a responsible adult and should and will be held accountable for my own actions! "*Come on Man!*"

*"IN MY OPINION"*


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## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

I like simple, I have a 25-30 year old Jet 3 hp cab saw. I figure that the only things that I will have to replace in my lifetime are the belts and bearings. In the last few years, had to replace the computer in a couple of cars, at a couple of thou apiece, and another ABS module, not cheap. Will SS be able to offer the parts over the lifetime of the saw. Yes, I have had one nick on my thumb, but If you can't get parts in a few years, then you are back into a non SS saw, or no saw at all.


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## againstthegrain (Feb 16, 2008)

I wasn't going to reply to this. There seems to be plenty of responses already. But, having read the response from Manitario, I felt rather compelled.

I own the SS 5 horse cabinet saw. I sold my unisaw when I decided to purchase it. I have been working wood for over 18 years. I know how to use a saw. At face value, is it as good as my unisaw was, or any Powermatic I've used? Absolutely! It was a stretch to buy, as I am not a wealthy person. I bought it for piece of mind. Not for me. It was when my daughter came to me and asked if I would start teaching her wood working that I made the decision. Being one of the most dangerous and powerful tools in the shop, I thought, that if there were ever an accident, and I had not spent the money, how would I be able to live with it? I couldn't settle that question in my heart, so I laid out the cash. Now the story . . .

It wasn't my daughter the tripped the brake, it was me, and the story sounds the same as so many others. I was at the end of one of those wonderful 14+ hour days in the shop. I was making a large number of drawers for a dresser. All the fronts, backs and sides where dovetailed, and the dado was cut for the drawer bottom. They all just needed to be trimmed a smidgen for a proper fit.

Now let me say here, this was an accident, and it was all my fault. You see as the day progressed, I was doing what so many of us do and shouldn't. Every time I went to the table saw, the offcuts from that operation went to the right side of the fence. (And had been for days) By the time I was trimming, I had no more room. And I know, it should have been cleaned off. As I was cutting, I was stacking them on the left side of the saw. I was just trying to get done.

So, I had multiple stacks near the left side edge of the saw. I was cutting the last piece, when I noticed that one of the stacks was about to fall off the table, While pushing the drawer side through the saw, I reached over with my left hand to tap the stack back and BANG! Happens real fast. I didn't feel it, but as soon as I heard it I knew what happened. I ran to the bathroom, grabbed a HUGE wad of paper towel and buried my thumb in it, and sat down on a shop stool to catch my breath. My heart was beating faster then a freight train.

As I sat there catching my breath, staring at the saw stop which no longer displayed my forest blade, I thought so many things. "How stupid could you be?" "Should have cleaned off the saw!" But mostly, "Did it work?"

Finally I got the nerve up to look. I walked back to the bathroom, in case I was about to bleed all over the place, and with great fear, removed the paper towel from my thumb. I was shocked. My thumb was cut, barely. The bleeding had stopped, and it didn't need a band aid.

Does it work? Yes!!! A thousand times over Yes!!! Is it a GREAT saw? YES! Does it make me less cautious? NO! It's a cabinet table saw. Who wouldn't be cautious around a powerful table saw? I'm not looking to fan the flames, only share my testimony. I learned many things that night. One of those was I very pleased with the investment I made in that saw, and look at it fondly every time I enter the shop.


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

*Againstthe grain*... my heart sinks everytime I hear these stories… I am glad the saw worked for you.

Gator


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Testify, Anchul! There you have it…an experienced, safety minded wood worker, who lost focus, maybe made a bad judgment call and in a flash..a millisecond, could have lost a thumb….but the Saw Stop technology was there, lurking in the background, waiting for him to make a tiny slip in critical judgment, and functioned perfectly. he might have lost a hundred dollar blade, but what price do you put on fingers? Especially thumbs! You can slag the company all you want for it's "scare" tactics, or the ridiculous lawsuits and attorneys trying to mandate this technology on all saws…but at the end of the day you still have a machine that can PREVENT catastrophic accidents, proven by situations just like Anchul just described. Kudos to you, Anchul for making the decision to get the Saw Stop to protect your daughter…and it ended up saving your thumb!


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Before Gass, the inventor of the finger-saving technology, was forced to find money and build his own brand of tablesaws, he offered his technology to existing tablesaw makers. He wasn't interested in making and selling tablesaws to start with; but the big guys said no to him and the rest is history now. This is a classic penny wise and pound foolish case: now the tablesaw manufacturers have created the worst enemy for themselves, not because of the law suit but because of the booming sales enjoyed by SAWSTOP. My province has now installed only SAWSTOPs in our schools (sales= 1 or 2 x no. of junior and high schools that offer woodworking classes). This is the trend for all other provinces I believe because no schools would want their students to get hurt or worse, them to get sued by parents of injured kids! One SAWSTOP sold means one less sale for the rest of the other big guys who said if the gov`t didn`t mandate it, why would I need it? This was a commercial mistake some would regret for many years to come.

To set the record straight, SAWSTOP owner has nothing to do with the lawsuit, although he might be enjoying the outcome. He doesn't initiate or support financially the lawsuit. Some people seem to have confused his product with the court case.

The argument whether we should have seat belts or not is no longer heard these days. 10 years from now (probably shorter), whether SAWSTOP (or similar technology which is being pushed by all the other tablesaw makers because they couldn't just sit there, waiting to be eliminated) is needed would be a non-question. The SAWSTOP prices have gone down and I expect them to keep on going down.

By the way, some argue that what about other machines that don't have the finger-saving technology? Why bother with the Tablesaw? My response to this is let's do whatever we can and whatever that IS available.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

againstthegrain - Thanks for sharing and confirming why we should mandate the technology for tablesaws as seat belts for vehicles. I am sure if vehicles were offered without seat belts today as a lower price option, some would still buy them and argue that they could take care of themselves! By the way, the costs of injuries from car accidents, woodworking injuries etc. are partially covered by the taxpayers. As long as you pay tax, you are helping pay the guys who injure themselves regardless of the reasons! Is there a choice for us to not to cover those who argue they can take care of themselves? Unfortunately, no.

Did you report it and get the free cartridge from SAWSTOP?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Chuck-Just for the record, Steve Gass was called as an 'expert witness' in the Osorio case, and so he did, technically, play a role in and potentially profit directly from Carlos Osorio's lawsuit.

I don't know what Gass (who is also a lawyer) was paid for his services, but typically an expert witness who is summoned by the plaintiff in a case is paid for their time and expertise. They are not paid for their testimony, but most of the time, they are paid for their time, which includes not only their time on the witness stand, but also the time they spend studying case background, files, evidence, meeting with lawyers, etc. This prep work can involve considerable time at a rather substantial hourly rate.

I have an acquaintance who is both an MD and a JD … he has never practiced medicine or law, but has made a handsome living testifying as an expert witness in personal injury and malpractice lawsuits.

-Gerry


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Thanks Gerry for the additional info. which I wasn't aware of. But my point was to address the wrong impression some posters made that Gass somehow was behind the lawsuit. His role as an expert witness doesn't mean he is pushing his product through the court or legal means as some have implied. After all, he is the ONLY expert on SAWSTOP and we can't prejudge that he did the testimony for personal benefits. The money he received for his expert role was/would be available or given to any other witnesses that might be or have been called upon. Had he supported the injured woodworker financially in anyway, the accusations would have been justified.

For the record, I do not agree with the findings of the judge and the settlement. I am just saying the technology should be adopted like the riving knife (which also increases the cost of a tablesaw but no one seems to bother to say they should have a choice without the riving knife…perhaps kickbacks are more important to them. Me? Both are equally important). As I said in my earlier post, it doesn't have to be the SAWSTOP technology; Oneworld and others are already looking at a finger saving technology that kicks down the whole saw instead of braking on it (so the saw blade can be reused).

More and more cities now make winter tires mandatory; like it or not, if consumers or manufacturers don't take the initiatives to step up to the plate when the technology is available, the gov'ts will - by legal force, after many many more digits lost, perhaps.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

In my opinion using a bench or table saw is not frighteningly difficult to do so long as you sturdy the thing and watch out for the pitfalls ,study it well before switching on if you are a new comer to this line of work.Within a week or so ,working one will be(if your careful) nothing to worry about.You shouldn't use any tool iof your frightened of it.NO macho meaning intended.In fact my new saw was here for a few weeks before I tried it.We can all be careless and that's the problem be relatively careful don't take chances and you will never come to harm saw stop or not.The saw stop is fine if you can't use a saw without worrying better still if it's that bad don't use it at all. I use my large saw with sliding table alone no one else is allowed to go near it or would want to.I am happy personally with it and use it happily and without anxiety any time or day of the week so long as I am not tired or ill .Alistair


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## Lumber2Sawdust (Jul 22, 2010)

I have been considering a purchase of a SawStop myself.

There are a couple of mis-statements in this thread that I wanted to address. I've seen the "hotdog demo". The guy doing the demo reused the same blade for repeated demos. He would cut wood with it. It cut like butter, even after several demos. The point is: you may have to replace your blade, but that is not a given.

The other thing is that during the demo, the demonstrator mentioned that there are a lot if naysayers out there that say if you touch the blade slowly, as in crosscutting and coming into contact with the blade, it will work, but not if you have a case where the contact is fast, like kickback throwing your hand into the blade. Having said that, he then slapped the hotdog down on the blade, hard and fast. The stopped and retracted. The hotdog had a nick, about 1/8" deep in it. Granted, you will bleed, but you won't have to go to the hospital.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

AgainsttheGrain: Thanks for the testimonial!

I have three kids; one almost 27 months old. I am always concerned with my Unisaw that the kids, especially the little one, will push buttons. She did it once before when she was with me in the shop. Thankfully, I keep the blade retracted at all times…and I keep it unplugged when not in use (as with all my equipment).

While I have more faith in myself when using the saw, I don't have faith that, in some way, my kids might figure out a way to get a finger in a moving blade. Don't know how that might happen, but I'd be a fool to think it couldn't happen. No riving knife or blade guard would prevent such a catastrophe.

For this reason, and this reason alone, I'll likely acquire a Sawstop someday. I don't care about politics. I don't care about company ownership. If it works and it's something I feel good about having, I'll buy it.


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## wstokes (Mar 20, 2009)

Lumber2Sawdust is right about speed. When I saw the demo the Woodcraft person pushed the hot dog into the blade very very fast, far faster than I ever would think about feeding even plywood into my table saw blade. The hot dog had a nick only about 1/16" deep. I suspect even the most aggressive wood worker would only need a band-aid, the technology really does work.


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## newbiewoodworker (Aug 29, 2010)

I tend to agree with Cozmo here. It seems everything has become to "sanitized."

-A relative of mine, will not let her daughter ride in the front seat…she is 13 years old….
-Woodworking used to be done by men dressed in ties/button up shirts with approns… no more..
-Admin at school, makes teachers, essentially lock the door, give a warning, then make sure no-one is coming, before anything potentially offending can be said.
-God is considered taboo… You cannot wish someone a Merry Christmas… you must wish them a Happy Holiday.

It seems everything has become sanitized.


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## rbterhune (Jul 31, 2009)

Funny…Deke hit the nail on the head…2nd post.

And I agree with a1Jim…who cares about the inventor's approach? The guy wants to succeed, so why not get his product out there however he can. Also, it's not like the guy wasn't concerned about all of the woodworkers out there…he did conceive and produce a product for protecting said woodworkers.

They also look to be of very good quality…to not buy one because of concerns over becoming complacent is absurd…complacency is in the mind and you shouldn't let your mind think of the saw as a crutch. Hell, I don't want to even think about testing the technology.

Ignorance is curable, stupidity is for life! Don't be stupid.


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## newbiewoodworker (Aug 29, 2010)

Yes rbter… but with that " concern" he put a $5000 price tag… double what a regular saw costs… Now I know, someone will say Finger-Reattachment costs $500,000… but thats why we have insurance… we pay for it anyway…


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

My primary objection to the saw stop is the ultra sleazy methods that the inventor is using to promote his product. Honestly I bet there would be higher usage rates IF the courts were left out of it, and pricing was more in line with comparable saws. (Compare a 3HP SawStop for example to a Grizzly G0690).


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## jsheaney (Jun 25, 2007)

Kickback should be prevented by the riving knife in most situations; anti-kickback pawls in the others. I think the auto-braking and the riving knife combo make the SS an excellent and safe saw.

I am a computer programmer and cut the tendon in my left ring finger with a kitchen knife. I can tell you straight out that you don't want to injure your hand if you're occupation depends on typing. If you can afford it, get the SS. It's a no brainer. Most of this other nonsense about personal responsibility comes from people who have a lifelong relationship with tools like this and/or have some other training in their past; either from Dads, HS shop, trade school, etc. I'm sure you are much more like me and have learned most of what you know about woodworking from the internet and books. You live in a different world from these guys. Ignore all those arguments. They don't apply to you. You don't have the time to develop the experience that they are talking about and they will never understand that.

I have a friend who suggested a technology for dramatically reducing auto accidents. It would be much cheaper than airbags and seat belts. Just mount a large spike in the middle of the steering wheel pointing right at the drivers' chest. He's right of course, but most of us realize that it's a joke.

I'll also add that SS has done nothing wrong. They invented something, patented and shopped it around. No one bit, so they formed a company on their own and now have a business selling their invention. They didn't sue Ryobi. They didn't pass any laws. They aren't forcing anyone to do anything.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

" Newbiewoodworker: Yes rbter… but with that " concern" he put a $5000 price tag… double what a regular saw costs… Now I know, someone will say Finger-Reattachment costs $500,000… but thats why we have insurance… we pay for it anyway…"

The basic SAWSTOP contractor type sells for $2,500 Cdn or so in my city. Sometimes, it's lower if there's a promotion. No one needs to pay $5,000 for the finger saving technology unless one does woodworking for a living and needs the power…in that case, the Sawstop is tax deductible as a business expense (depreciation).

As I see it, the SAWSTOP is a much better form of insurance because I can get to use it, while enjoying its "insurance coverage." Finally, not all fingers can be reattached. There are many many valid reasons for a woodworker not to get a SAWSTOP, but there're no valid reasons for us to hate its technology.

Someone said the blade was reused in the hotdog demo…that blade would not be suitable for cutting wood, because some carbide teeth were damaged. The force might also have caused some deformity to the body of the blade. If you use the sawstop for a living, you'd need to have a spare cartridge and blade around. SAWSTOP will send you a free cartridge if you send them back the activated cartridge/blade (they would perform tests on it to ensure it was triggered off by the human flesh). .

P.S. There is a lot of misinformation in some of the posts found in this thread…over-generalizatons, too..


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I love my stubby fingers???

They look deformed, not normal, stubby, shorter then some of the adjacent fingers and the fingernails on the stubby's look sorta %$#@ up too, like the nails are not where they "SHOULD" be, alien looking thingys.

If I had saw stop, theres no way I could have such fun sticking a stubby up my nostril and looking at some one knowing they think I have three knuckles up my nose…............and watch the expression on their face when I pull out the stubby….................some times they even think the other half of the finger is still up my nose.

I love saw stop.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*agallant* Did you get your answer? One of the reasons I never tried skiing was because I needed to climb ladders to make a living and already had knee issues. Same reason I never rode bulls  Cheap insurance, stay off 'em! Access the risks to your livelihood, take it from there. I could probably get myself declared disabled, but who wants to live in disability? Doesn't pay very well.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Personally, Every time I turn on my old Delta Rockwell saw I look at the blade and think… "Is this the time it will happen?". When this saw goes, I'm not one to change till needed, I will drool at some other saw brands but the safety feature of the saw stop will be a selling point for me. No questions. Wish I had one now. I only hope that I have all my fingers till the old Delta dies and I get one. When a toothed blade hits a finger it does one of two things. It instantly removes it or it hooks the side of the finger flesh and tears the nerves. Either way you loose a finger or have a useless appendage.

Of the couple dozen replies here I wonder which one(s) of us will some day look back at this post with a missing finger and think they could still have 10.

The other saw companies would have seen sales increases if they offered a model or two with the sawstop feature. Even at $700 more in price. I'd love a powermatic with this feature.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

@Craftsman on the Lake - "Is this the time it will happen?". Guess what? I own a SawStop and I still look down at the spinning blade and ask "Is this the time it will happen?". Obviously no one wants to lose a finger or two but I doubt anyone wants to lose a blade and brake that'll set them back ~180 bucks.

So to those that think that people who own SawStops are more relaxed and carefree when they're using the SawStop that couldn't be farther from the truth. BTW- you can still get seriously hurt on a SawStop or any other saw if the piece of lumber you're cutting kicks back into your body. I still use the GRR Gripper when I make certain cuts. Speaking of ~ is the GRR Gripper company also using scare tactics when they're advertising their product? I think not.

Also, unless pricing is different in other areas of the country, a comparable Delta Unisaw is priced nearly the same as the SawStop; I think the SawStop is about a 100bucks more. I live very close to the SawStop headquarters in Oregon so I don't know if our pricing is different than other parts of the country; I seriously doubt it.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"@Craftsman on the Lake - "Is this the time it will happen?". Guess what? I own a SawStop and I still look down at the spinning blade and ask "Is this the time it will happen?". Obviously no one wants to lose a finger or two but I doubt anyone wants to lose a blade and brake that'll set them back ~180 bucks."

-----
No one ever said that the blade wouldn't elicit a pause to think. If it's going to happen it will if one has a sawstop or not. The saws are the sam spinning blades. That changes nothing. But, if it does happen the 180 bucks will be easy to swallow.
Why is it that if someone says they would like the added safety feature then some people think they are going to put wood through with their eyes closed? I have an air bag in my car. So now I don't look where I'm going.

I have a young nephew who's just made a nice platform bed in my shop. He's in his late 20's and has decided that this woodworking thing is doable and he likes it. We talked table saws. I told him to get a sawstop. For the next 50-60 years of woodworking he might be glad he did. If the saw is good then the safety feature is a compelling selling point.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

I totally agree with you Craftsman. I grew up with a very cheap Craftsman saw that my dad owned and the fence was horrific. You had to square it each time you used it; it was that bad. I'm surprised I didn't lose a limb or two. I then bought my own saw; again a relatively cheap jobsite saw (Dewalt). The fence was much better but it was small and it was very difficult to cut larger pieces. Now I have the SawStop and it's heaven but I still "look where I'm going"


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Just to throw this out there--
SS has a setting to override the brake - if you are cutting pressure treated lumber or other wet lumber. So, while this is in "override" and you hit the blade cutting off a finger, is SS liable?


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

@David - Why would they be? I think most if not all SawStop owners are looking at that ruling against Ryobi as disgusting and the court should have never ruled in favor of that guy making a free hand rip cut. What a joke.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

I've seen demos where they compare push sticks and similar shop made devices and how they can 'cause' kick back and then they show the GRR Gripper device and how it helps prevent kick back. It sold me.

woodcraft.com has a video on the comparison. I consider this informational and not a 'scare tactic'


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

tedth66-The reason is this - in Ohio there was a recent case that went to the Ohio Supreme Court. In short, a man injured his eye unboxing a piece of furniture, he was awarded $75,000 to be paid by Lazyboy. It has become a standard that if someone gets hurt, even if it is for no reason, the manufacturer must pay damages. If Gass, the CEO from Saw Stop helps to make a case that any saw injury is the liability of the saw manufacturer, he may be setting the stage for his own problems. Whether the technology is operating or not may be irrelevant.

This could easily become the, "be careful what you ask for, you might get it," situation.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

It takes a special kind of person to sue a company for something that was obviously the fault of their own and NOT the companies. Does that mean that car companies are getting sued left and right in the state of Ohio?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Sure opens a lot of doors to things that shouldn't never have been opened.


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## SPHinTampa (Apr 23, 2008)

Put me the camp of people that will not buy

1. I do not want a device on my saw that will kick out due to fluctuations in electrical current - I live in Tampa, the lightening strike capital of the US and I do not want to be replacing expensive cartridges.

2. I am offended by the company's legal tactics and will not patronize an organization that is trying to create a monopoly. If this technology is mandated then the patent needs to be removed.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety
- Ben Franklin.


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## tedth66 (Sep 1, 2009)

SPHin ~ I'm glad you still have your middle finger to give to SawStop


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## newbiewoodworker (Aug 29, 2010)

For once, Charlie, I agree. It wasn't powertool related, but I had an accident myself earlier this(2010) year:
I was taking out the trash at work. A can hand been thrown away. When I reached down to grab the bottom of the bag, to lift it into the dumpster, my finger apparently caught either a bur on the can, the cover, or something like that.
--I bled like a stuck pig. I still have a scar and a lump, where a good portion of the pad of my finger was litterally shaved off…. Sure, I could have sued my boss, and "Chef's Choice"... but I used this thing called responsibility. It was my fault that I had reached down, rather than just swinging it over. It was my fault that I wasn't wearing a glove or something to protect against injuries like that(they aren't supplied to us)... It wasn't the manufacturer's, for making sharp cans. It wasn't the cook's(even though, comically, I am one of the cooks.. lol) fault for not getting rid of a bur(it kinda was, since they never completely cut off the top, but rather twist it off..)
---But thats what people don't do.. If you injure yourself, by your own poor judgement, it is nobody's fault but your own. So if you cut your hand off, because you didn't guard the saw-blade, with the provided guard.. then thats your fault, and your's alone… The manufacturer shouldn't pay a dime.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I am not understanding the price complaint on Saw Stop - unless that focus is on the contractor version.

Yes the new Unisaw is made back in Tennesee - which is a good reason to support it.
But the Unisaw at Woodcraft - is 3299 with the 52 inch Biesmeyer, and the a new Sawstop PCS 3 horsepower cabinet saw is 2999, and they were including the overarm guard with dust collection as a bonus.

So if I am looking for a cabinet saw…why wouldn't I choose the *CHEAPER SawStop *with finger saving technology over the Delta and use the 300 bucks for a spare cartridge and blade, + take the wife out for a nice dinner and gas up the car?


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Some of the "memes" and opinions I've been reading about SawStop don't line up with what I remember reading months ago. These links seem pretty factual to me. This is a good SawStop history. FWW has good info on the Osorio case. The writer actually read the whole 1100 page transcript. One point that seems to go unnoticed in the Osorio case is the role insurance companies played in it. His employers workers comp. provider was a third party plantif in the suit. -Jack


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Do I have to hate Saw Stop to post? I've had mine for 8 months and I like it just fine. I have avoided using my 8" dado set because I suspect I'll have to make adjustments when I swap between the standard and dado blade breaks - it might be a simple process but I'm not eager to learn it. I can't use my thin-kerf blades since the riving knife is sized for a standard kerf. What I like most about the saw is not unique to Saw Stop - the saw cuts well, the riving knife and blade guard work well, and since they store conveniently on the cabinet and are so simple to change as required for the next cut I actually use them consistently.

I am a big fan of GRRippers - those suckers are shockingly expensive for what are only tricked-out push blocks but I use mine a lot because they make many cuts more simple and more safe - and I get better results. Hardly ever use push sticks anymore.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

How about this for a lawsuit:

With SawStop instigating all this litigation to "require SS technology" in all TS products, shouldn't SS be sued for *failing to supply* RETROFIT SS kits for all existing table saw owners and their saws?

Where's the *SS Retrofit Kit* for my Grizzly? ...for my Delta? ...for my Powermatic? ...for my Craftsman? ...for my __?


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

That's silly, Mike. Stephen Gass isn't suing saw manufacturers, the victims/idiots and their insurance companies are. He only testified, under oath, as a witness. When it was clear the manufacturers wouldn't licence his invention, he petitioned the *Consumer Product Safety Council* to make flesh-sensing technology standard in new table saws. The manufacturers are fighting it. Blaming Gass for Osorio/Ryobi or the liability plight of the other manufacturers is ridiculous. 10 years ago, they bet that it would be cheaper to fight the liability suits than make their saws safer. They are losing that bet and their customers lost a dump truck load of fingers. Stephen Gass is a woodworker with a doctorate in physics who had a great idea. He is also a patent attorney so he knew what his idea was worth and how to protect it. Because he put his money where his mouth is his customers still have few bucket loads of their fingers. If he gave his idea away the big manufacturers would still be sitting on it. The man is a woodworkers hero. -Jack


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

You can debate the legalities, and the patent issues, and the liability question, and argue about taking personal responsibility. But the fact still remains, accidents happen, and when your dealing with high speed carbide cutters near flesh, I for one would feel a little better knowing there was a backup safety system in place for unforeseen occurrences.That is unless your the kind of person that thinks 1. Your experience puts you out of the danger zone 2. your willingness to accept the risk that the saw can injure you, and somehow that will protect you. 3. The company is just brain washing people and scaring people into buying their product. 4. Your unbelievable adherence to safe table saw practices will keep you from ever getting hurt. If that's the case well then…don't ever buy a Saw Stop…


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The reality is this-

I never said that the SS technology wasn't as great as advertised. As SS works out the kinks in their products and they start gaining market share, which they will if the product is sound, the other manufacturers will either license SS technology or develop their own. No one has to pass laws nor should they, to force anyone to use this or other technology. The market will do it anyway. This is the power of a free market society. The idea to use the courts to create your monopoly is tacky, whether as an expert witness or by other means. Make your product, show how good it is, and if it really does that well, it will sell. As HorizontalMike stated, where are the retrofit kits for my Rigid saw. I would like to see it.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Sad, I have a contractor type.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

My wife an I plan to retire sometime in 2012. When that time comes, we will re-locate to be closer to family, and one of the things I am contemplating is selling some of the bigger tools and replacing them with new equipment when I get ready to set up shop in our new digs. That would reduce moving costs a bit, and give an opportunity to upgrade some machinery.

If I decide to sell tools instead of re-locate them, my Jet table saw would be at the top of the list to go, and the list of replacement candidates would certainly include a SawStop.

Not sure what prices and available features will be then (anybody have a crystal ball?), but flesh-sending / safety technology will certainly be attractive to an older (sigh!) woodworker who will likely have his grandsons around the shop on a regular basis for the first time.


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

It seems pathetic to me that so many of the people here have such pathetic judgement, that they value things like perceived safety improvements being MANDATED BY LAW, more highly than they value protection from having their fellow citizens (intellectually challenged or not) determine for them, their positions and decisions on things that they have the right, as well as the responsibility to decide for themselves.

All that aside, contrary to some statements here, there have in fact been people who have stated reasons why they wouldn't want any SawStop table saw. And I agree with many of them. I would never put up with the degree of hassle associated with SawStop's mechanisms.


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## chriswright (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't hate the tool, the marketing is getting a little old. I have to say though, in the litigious society we live in today, if I were to open a woodworking school I would buy a SawStop in an instant just to cover my butt. In an environment where you have inexperienced woodworkers operating tools that they only have a minor understanding of where you can't spend every second watching them to make sure they won't hurt themselves, it just makes sense to have it. But if I were building my own shop for my own use, I'd buy a Delta Unisaw. I feel it's a better built machine with more features that are useful and provide better safety (i.e. a riving knife and blade guard I'd use.


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

I'd just make everybody sign a waiver, and make the school an LLC. There's no way I will ever help support the trend of helping society move toward lower personal responsibility, or toward increased manufacturer liability.

Just look at many of the people posting here. Next thing you know, one of these guys will fall down on the sidewalk and skin his knee. Then he'll jump up, look around and yell "Hey, I know about an invention that can be added to concrete, making it soft & spongy. I'm going to sue this sidewalk contractor for not including it, and the city for not mandating it. Then many like-minded turkeys around the country will start lining up to ratchet up the action.


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## RobWoodCutter (Jul 22, 2009)

I have no comment on to buy or not to buy. but I do have one big question to ask you.

_"Agallant: ", I don't do wood working for a living I am in IT and can not do my job if my hands are injured."_

If your fingers/hands are that important to you, what good is it to buy a sawstop, only to turn around take off a finger or two on a bandsaw or anyone of the other dangerous tools that can be found in a wood working shop.

By the way, I did not go with a sawstop but with a PM2000. If I had gone with a Sawstop, I would still have alot other tools to worry about:

-18" RAS,18" Bandsaw (PM1800),16" jointer,8" jointer,20" planer, 15" molder,drill press, mortiser, 9"x138" Osc. edge sander, belt/disc sander, Ocs. spindle sander, 5 hp shaper, SCMS, etc. None of which contain the sawstop technology.

Rob


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

The on-going discussion led to my recalling a car purchase decision I made years ago: Should I get a car with the ABS function or not (I live in the winter city environment)? The ABS feature cost more money and I took it because I figured the cost was minimal when depreciated over 15 years (I usually change cars after 12 - 15 years so I can get the modern technologies). The ABS feature has been activated two to three dozen times during every winter and I credit that partly for my zero car accident record. Now ABS is pretty much a standard feature in new cars sold in my province and drivers don't have to struggle if they want to pay more.

When my wife got her new car last year, she took the Stability Control Feature as well (which has been made mandatory for all 2011 (or 2012) cars) and boy, that's a technology no one should hate - if you ever live and drive in winter conditions for long. (Studies have shown it drastically reduces roll-over accidents.) Yes, it costs more money but what doesn't? (The riving knives do not come free with the tablesaws!) The control one gets with such system is awesome. Wait, does my wife drive faster or less carefully with her car because of that? NO. She is still the same driver she has been for the past 25 years. Are our cars covered by insurance? Yes. Having the best or most affordable technology doesn't mean you'll let your guard down.


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

At the risk of prolonging a thread of largely mind-numbing nonsense, the bigger issue here is about the rights of American citizens, not about opinions as to whether or not any safety feature is a good or bad idea.

Bringing up examples of how government mandates can sometimes seem to lead to improved products is like saying that the German government hauling off Jews to death camps during WW2 seemed to reduce real estate costs to certain other people who took over their homes. It misses the more important point.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

Great point Rob - why take your blood pressure meds if some other disease for which there isn't a cure will get you?


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## RobWoodCutter (Jul 22, 2009)

The point wasn't to not take your "blood pressure meds" but if your doctors tells you "eating *any* salt, could cause you to end up in the emergency room". Means no salt at all.

He pointed out that "he could not afford any damage to his fingers" because of his job. He did not say "I don't mind a missing finger or two, because i can still do my job, so what is the most safe table saw I can buy, so I can at least reduce the risk based on one tool out of ten"

Sure buy a Sawstop, but don't buy a bandsaw until it comes with a sawstop feature if you can't stand to loose a finger. Accidents happen. Buying the Sawstop may help with the tablesaw work, but how is it going to help if he chooses to put his fingers at risk using a bandsaw?

I also noticed that from my response and most responders here, we did not read his original post very well. He said he only wanted to hear from the Sawstop haters. It seemed an awful lot of Sawstop lovers decided to ignore his question and respond anyway.

Of course, I think this is why SS discussion are being banned on other forum.

If I had posted a similar question "I only want to hear from those that chose not to buy a Sawstop", I would expect 150 responses, most of them from folks that DID BUY ONE AND NOT FROM THE ONES THAT DID NOT BUY ONE. Oh well.

Rob


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

I think Rob's point is well taken. I don't think it's as important as are the issues of responsibility and freedom that are at play in this discussion. But nonetheless, it bears pointing out that there will be many dangerous tools and machines in a well equipped shop (at least there will be for as long as it's possible to obtain them).

Even if you mean to say that every danger should be mitigated against, no matter what its statistical probability is or whether or not the cost of its cure is worthy of wiping out the budget for all other tools (hey, there's another safety idea), the blood pressure med argument is weak. Cutting oneself in the shop can't be reasonably modeled in an analogy by a diagnosed condition.


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm going to try to bow out of this discussion at this point. It always tempts me to address issues surrounding liberty and freedom, responsibility to one's fellow citizens, etc., particularly when they are trampled or ignored by groups of Labrador retrievers barking about whatever ignites their interest-focused sensibilities.

This thread feels like I happened upon a forum about something like rope, its uses, characteristics of various rope material choices, etc. and then found a thread in it concerning using rope to drag people behind cars as torture. When various people post things about whether or not such uses of rope are immoral, they are met by a surprisingly large number of posts by people who want to focus the conversation back onto things like tensile strength, immunity to UV, and cost.

'You can debate the legalities, and the patent issues, and the liability question, and argue about taking personal responsibility. But the fact still remains, (that some rope is better?)

In response to the question of whether I'd be considered a SawStop hater or not, and therefore whether or not my input was ever asked for here, I'd have to say that I'm much more of a SawStop hater than I am a SawStop lover (or liker, or maybe even tolerator). All political and philosophical issues aside (not that I'd ever decide that they should be set aside), I can't stand the idea of having the SawStop brake mechanism on a table saw of mine. I have a good friend who owns a SawStop cabinet saw. He's a professional woodworker, and has no big problem dealing with that mechanism when he changes blades, etc. But he does grumble about it. For me though, it would be awful to have to fight with that thing all the time. I wouldn't keep a SawStop saw, even if someone gave me a free one.

So in a nutshell, I suppose that if you wouldn't mind having that complex mechanism complicating your interactions (and in some cases, making the use of certain jigs, etc. impossible), then maybe the added safety that it can provide might be worthwhile to you. For me, it wouldn't.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

HOOOT! Earlier someone suggests SS marketing is "communistic" and now Nazis and the Holocaust is referenced. I was looking for a reference to Stephen Gass/SawStops' "sleaziness". Was he asking for $700/saw licensing fee? What is he doing to achieve a monopoly? Is he involved in these lawsuits or just a witness? How/why is petitioning the CPSC a bad thing? What, specifically, has SawStop or Gass done that anyone shouldn't be proud of.

I posted links above to the sites where I got my information on SawStop/Gass and Osorio v Ryobi. Please. Please, someone, post a link with a factual, rational *justification* (not interested in the political BS) for the flogging you are giving SawStop and Stephen Gass. -Jack


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## ListWhisperer (Nov 17, 2009)

These last two posts are perfect examples of what it means to be intellectually challenged.

These two would have tried out for the position of court jester in an earlier time.

To algale: Well no, you didn't get it right.

To Irreverent Jack: When someone uses the technique of making an extreme analogy to illustrate a point, it shows a lack of understanding to try to focus attention on the obvious fact that the original point was more subtle.

And just to be (hopefully) more clear, I haven't made ANY points about Steven Gass's or SawStop's "sleaziness." I don't know enough about any of that to feel competent to comment. My statements are all about more general principles.


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## againstthegrain (Feb 16, 2008)

Just a quick note regarding ListWhisperer's comment about the "complex mechanism complicating your interactions (and in some cases, making the use of certain jigs, etc. impossible)".

1. Changing the blade to a 8" dado stack takes approximately three extra minutes to change out the brake. And that is with retrieving the brake from the draw. In the beginning, it may have taken me an additional 7 minutes. Didn't take long to cut that in half. No pun intended. 

2. I am not sure what jigs I can't use with my saw, but I would be curious to hear more detail. As far as I know, which isn't the "end all" in knowledge, but there are no limitations on jigs. I even use a metal aluminum finger joint jig on the saw with the brake engaged.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

I wonder if they put warning labels on the box, would that help?


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh wait they already have done that.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

Rob seemed to be insinuating:

Why spend [lots of] money mitigating a risk when it's one of many similar risks in your shop?

My blood pressure remark gets at the following idea:

What's wrong with mitigating a risk one CAN control, even if there are other similar risks that one CAN'T control?

That being said, I don't have any interest in continuing this discussion. I'm obviously too intellectually challenged…better leave it to the big boys.


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## RobWoodCutter (Jul 22, 2009)

"Rob seemed to be insinuating:
Why spend [lots of] money mitigating a risk when it's one of many similar risks in your shop?"

Not sure where you got this from any of my posts, never mentioned cost as an issue or whether he should or should not buy a Sawstop.

My one and only point was " if you can't afford to have a finger cut off" then you probably should limit yourself to handtools and "a sawstop." Once someone adds the functionality of the sawstop to the other power tools in a normal woodworking shop, then and only then buy them.

:One of the guys I work with cut off his finger…..with an electric 7-1/2" circular saw.
:My uncle worked in a furniture factory in the 1950's and cut the ends of three fingers off without knowing it on a 24" jointer. Repetitive work, pushing board after board over the jointer, his fingers hung over the back of a board too much, when he saw blood everywhere he couldn't figure it out, until he looked at his right hand. He said he never felt a thing the knives were so sharp.

Had the original poster not said " I can't afford to loose a finger", then I would not have even posted to this thread to begin with.

If you are willing to accept the fact that tools are potentially dangerous and you can lose a finger and you are also not willing to give up woodworking with "power tools", and you want to minimize the risk, then yes buy the sawstop.

"What's wrong with mitigating a risk one CAN control, even if there are other similar risks that one CAN'T control?"
I agree, there is nothing wrong with mitigating risk, assuming you are willing to take them to begin with.

Rob


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## jtmek (Aug 20, 2010)

I have read several of these replies stating that our fore fathers have used tablesaws for generations without any serious wrongdoing.!! WTF! The tablesaw accident statistics are extremely high. Every year 10,s of thousands of people lose fingers or are seriously injured. How can anyone possibly say otherwise. Dont fight the new safety features of modern technology. Accidents can and will happen no matter how safe your personal safety practices are. good luck, be safe.
jtmek


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I wonder how many use table saws and never have an accident?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah, look at all the safe drivers out there that have NEVER had an accident. They far out number the folks who do. So why do those who are SAFE, have to pay for those who are NOT? Wait a minute, if I don't drive why do I need car insurance? If I don't TS without a riving knife or splitter, then why do I need a SS?


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

I am a firm believer that people are injured by any power tool because the user does not respect what the tool can do, or use the tool beyond its intended capability. This argument will be around for a long time. Take for instance the argument of Radial Arm Saws versus Compound Miter Saws and how long Craftsman has been giving $100.00 for Radial Arm Saws that did not have a guard because of a law suit?

Is the SawStop argument something new? Nope just a new chapter in a never ending story.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Here is my take - sorry, gotta do it-

As I stated before, I don't mind the technology, I actually like it. What I don't want to see is the inventor trying to create a monopoly through the legal system. He didn't want to make saws, he wanted to license the invention to others.

I think the technology is still in its infancy and what SS has done is a good start. As can be seen by the many posts and in some cases, a little heated.

But I also want to acknowledge that this trade, business, hobby is filled with stuff that is designed to cut, scrape, gouge, carve, and in general remove anything in it way. If that doesn't work, ever have a piece of stressed wood break off and fly accross the room and just miss your face? I have had that happen and that becomes a wake up call on its own. So, am I going to jump into the court system and testify that the lumber mill or yard sold me dangerous material?


> Oh wait, can I sue the tree that it came off of


?

If you are so worried about getting cut or a little blood letting, either get out of woodworking or get a CNC machine - prograam it and let it do everything while you sit in the next room-- but leave the courts out of it. We really don't need a govt agent standing behind us when we make a table. The federal govt was never designed to be everything to all people. The freedoms of choice allows us to determine what is good for us and if that requires taking a risk to succeed, and we choose to take it-it is our choice, the good and the bad.

Lets be intellegent about this. Oh, and by the way, anybody that grew up in the snow belt learned early on how to pump their brakes and I personnally find ABS to be a pain in the backside. I have them but that doesn't mean that I like them. As far as I am concerned, ABS was designed for people that couldn't drive in the first place but getting to work is not the same as a hobby or business that I choose to work. Last I checked, the govt is not mandating that I MUST work wood for a living, if they did, the rules would be much different (probably wouldn't be any safety gear at all - too expensive).

Thanks to all


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

View original
SawStop Bandsaw Prototype 
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3PLwNccpXU


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## rbterhune (Jul 31, 2009)

After reading through most of the 136 replies to this post (so far) I find some of the arguments laughable. In particular, I read the posts where people complain about the extra 5 minutes needed to change blade/brake mechanisms. Tell me…how does a finger (or multiple fingers) equate to 5 minutes of time? I'm sure that if you could put both on a balance, you'd never save enough time on a regular saw (non-SS) to compensate for the 
loss of a digit or two. Geez guys, put things in perspective…please!


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I have done my research. I have ordered my saw, yes it was expensive but the thing being is that I can not find anyone with any complaints about the quality or usability of the saw. The only complaints I have ever heard was about the tactics the company/founder/lawyers used to try to force the technology on the market and of course the price. I suspect that if Saw Stop offered up a $500 contractor saw in the tool isle of Home Depot there would be allot less people complaining about the company.

With that said I do think that the $1,700 price tag of the contractor saw is ridiculous. It is not any nicer than my granite top Rigid that I currently have. It is like paying an extra $1,100 for the break technology (and a better fence)

For the record I went with the 3HP cabinet saw with 36 inch rails. I am pretty sure this will be the last saw I buy. The one thing I don't get is it is every bit as good as the Delta Uni-Saw I was looking at but unlike the contractor saw the cabinate saw is at the same price point as the compitition.

Any of you haters are welcome to come over and stick your finger in the blade 

-AG


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

"What I don't want to see is the inventor trying to create a monopoly through the legal system"

Please David, explain to me how you think Stephen Gass is doing this. Please. He was a witness in a court case brought by an idiot and an insurance company against Ryobi. In 2003, before he was making saws, he petitioned the CPSC to look into adopting " SawStop like" technology into table saw standards. I'm thinking this is how it works. You stand up and tell the truth and if you have something that will save people pain and treasure you promote it. SawStops technology may be the basis for many product liability suits but being a witness doesn't make Gass a party in those suits. To my knowledge Gass is not a party in any product liability suit.

These are some of the links I have read to base my thoughts on this matter. If any SawStop/Gass floggers out there are basing their statements on something other than unsubstantiated, unjustified rumor and gossip *I'd like to know.** Let's see the links.* Please, someone, point out to me a reason all Americans shouldn't be *PROUD* of Stephen Gass and SawStop. -Jack


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Ok, this lawsuit sets a precedence. The article in March that I read, states that there are 50 more cases against many other saw manufacturers. Gass is a lawer and he is very aware of what he was doing, this was not by chance. He, as an expert witness, was doing his "payback" for everybody that did not want to pay his licensing fees on a prototype that took him 2-3 years to get to market and a few more years to perfect - and still working on it.

Now, the chain of events that he has created. with the lawsuit. Everybody that works on a product that has belts, wheels, chains, spokes, fans, blades, or any other moving part - the manufacturer is liable if anybody gets hurt using, servicing, etc…

So, if you are changing the oil in your lawnmower, have it tipped over, and you didn't - for whatever reason - unplug the sparkplug. You move the blade and the darn thing kicks, whacking off the end of a finger. At this point what ever is in the manual is pointless, the precedence is that the manufacturer is responsible. The device is built and designed to cut things off, where does the operator take responsibility for their actions?

This is not a car, talking about seatbelts, it is akin to putting a proximity switch on a car and if it gets within 2 car lengths of anything, the car ejects you from the car so you don't get hurt.

I think the technology is good and getting better. If Gass wasn't a lawyer, and was some inventor or engineer working in his home shop or even the CEO of SawStop, I would have less of a problem, but-being an attorney, he was and is very aware of what he was doing and what his desired results were. In my oppinion, this was "payback" and he wants everybody that didn't blindly take what he was pushing (that was untested and not ready for primetime) - to bleed, if not shutdown. This is what I don't like!

In my opinion, the judge should have told the person that he or she should have bought the SawStop instead of Ryobi and it wasn't Ryobi's fault that he or she wasn't paying attention - case closed !


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## JBfromMN (Oct 19, 2010)

Quote

he petitioned the CPSC to look into adopting " SawStop like" technology into table saw standards.

End Quote

Sounds to me like he is trying to use a government agency to force Table Saw Companies to either adobt his technology in their saws or develop their own. Keep in mind he is/was a Patent Lawyer. He holds the patent for the technology. Any company that even comes close to infringing on his patent will be ran to court. Just speculating here, but it makes sense.

I have stated before I really like the technology that he developed. If he would NOT have gone to the CPSC and pleaded his case to have companies use his technology, then I bet everyone, myself included, would have really different outlook on the guy.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Listwhisperer..
First off, why are you so angry and insulting? People are entitled to their opinions, no matter how stupid you think they are, when you look down the mountain at all of us mortals. Quite frankly, your posts seem to me to be grasping at some really convoluted straws to make some really absurd and assanine analogies…..a thread about rope? Dude, how long did it take you to dream up that pile of s**t. Lets have a look at some of your other gems..

It seems pathetic to me that so many of the people here have such pathetic judgment, that they value things like perceived safety improvements being MANDATED BY LAW, more highly than they value protection from having their fellow citizens (intellectually challenged or not) determine for them, their positions and decisions on things that they have the right, as well as the responsibility to decide for themselves.
Did you write that after you got home from a particularly engaging Tea Party meeting?

I'd just make everybody sign a waiver, and make the school an LLC. There's no way I will ever help support the trend of helping society move toward lower personal responsibility, or toward increased manufacturer liability.
Ya, screw the safety of your students, just worry about covering your ass…

At the risk of prolonging a thread of largely mind-numbing nonsense,
To which you are adding both mind numbing, and nonsense…

Bringing up examples of how government mandates can sometimes seem to lead to improved products is like saying that the German government hauling off Jews to death camps during WW2 seemed to reduce real estate costs to certain other people who took over their homes. It misses the more important point.
WTF????


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Enough already. Time to unwatch this blog


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Will this topic ever go away?


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

It is only 8 days old… give it another week and maybe it will by then.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Brian, do you think it will live that long?
- SY


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

I hope not but stranger things have happened.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

FWIW, and I mentioned it already. I am absolutely disgusted with the business tactics of the inventor. HOWEVER, the saw itself is top notch from what I have seen, and I mean right there with the Unisaw, and Powermatic saws… The blade brake technology is a real hand saver in that case where things just go really wrong. However as it sits right now, I simply can not afford such a saw. If the technology was available in a decent ~$500.00 saw, then I would be far more likely to be able to buy one. As it is, I am working toward, and saving for one. Specifically the 3HP SawStop PCS… Maybe if I won the lotto or something…


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I have the contractors SS, and love it. It was easy to put together, the technical support is fantastic. It does not bog down, it cuts straight and true, it is fairly quiet.

It is safe, accurate and it is a very high quality saw.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Yea..I am with you guys…this topics been beaten up more than a red headed stepchild…Lets just agree to disagree..


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I should have been a lawyer. Paul Harvey had a thing about where lawyers have surpassed doctors in income and one in five lawyers is a bona fide millionaire. The US has more lawyers per capita than any other coungtry except for Germany. Oh well! I'm still not going to buy one! Can't even afford to buy a cheapy cabinet saw.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*CharlieL*: any time somebody brings up the McDonald's coffee lawsuit, I have to wonder if they know *anything* about it:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

I think people hear what they want to hear, and see what they want to see … as long as it tends to fit with what they already believe.

Too often, at least.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I really can see both sides of it.

On one hand, I feel like my non-SS saw is safe if I use it properly and follow all the standard safety procedures.

On the other hand, if money was no object, I'd opt for the added safety of the Sawstop.

On the *third* hand, money* IS *an object. so… I'd better be careful.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

So when will True Temper get sued for not having similar technology for an axe?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Charlie M*,

I wonder if that extra hand of yours makes using a table saw more or less safe. One the one hand, you have more control.

On the other hand, you have five more fingers to worry about!


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I believe a saw stop may save you from nipping your fingers off but who,s to say you don,t chop them off on the mitre saw or the skill saw or the band saw . If they are going to make one saw safe then they should all be designed the same . 
Then no one would be able to afford building anything .
Saw stop is great if you have lots of money to throw around but some of just have to take our chances simply because we can not afford that luxury .


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

General Woodworking Machinery 650R-T50 M2M 10" Left Tilt Table Saw 2999.99
POWERMATIC PM2000 10" Table Saw, Model 1792000K 2899.99
Delta UNISAW Tablesaw, 3 HP, , Model 36-L352 3299 - on sale 2999.99 until Jan 15

Saw Stop PCS 2999

OK Jet and Grizzly have cabinet saws that are much cheaper - But the Saw Stop seems to be right in line with the big boys on price.
Contractor saws have a lot more variety in features and price points but for sure SS is high cost.

So for the cabinet saw crowd - Price is not a decider

Is it that *IF* a Blade Brake system developed by Delta were included on their Unisaw version 2 at the identical 2999 - to the current model, would you still buy the 'Brake Free' version or get the new tech at no additional cost?
Or is it purely a philiosophical debate about Steven Gass' ethics?

This really goes to the original posters question - The Costs are all the same so if it comes down to the GENERAL 650 or the Saw Stop, is there a reason to AVOID the Saw Stop? 'cause I haven't seen anyone claiming the saw is crap or unproven hype. If as i do you have Testosterone raging kids that will use the saw - do you tell them they should have been more careful on the way to the ER -or for an additional "ZERO" dollars do the best to chose the safest tool available?


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Conclusion: If our gov't abolished all the safety requirements on our vehicles (from seat belts to air bags to ABS to SCS, etc.) today, a lot of SS haters would line up to buy the safety-free cheaper cars (say $5,000 less) as soon as they rolled out the production line whether or not they had small family members as passengers, right? RIGHT!!!!!!


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

got to wonder out of those 31000 injuries a year how many of them happen to people not using the correct guards on their saws?


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear world,

I am sorry I asked this question and created the thread that will never die.

Lets just all agree that we have our own preferences, some of us see value in having a saw stop and some don't. One thing I have learned is no one has anything bad to say about the saw it's self just the company/owner etc.

-AG


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A least we now know the answer ;-)) ;-)) Nobody hates stop saw!! ;-))


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## Tim29 (Oct 10, 2009)

I would love to have one but the cost is too much. I know that there is a compelling argument about the doctor bills and the lost work time nevermind the fingers that are either gone or severely damaged. But until they are able to make one a bit more affordable for the average weekend woodworker I am going to stick with my ridgid contractors saw.
On a sidenote, have you ever noticed that when one mentions the words SawStop on LJs it is like throwing a lighted match into a bucket of gasoline? There are some very solid opinions on both sides.


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

It's alright AG. This gave everyone something to talk about.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

benlyj: What do you do when they quit giving you replacement cartridges and start charging 200 dollars each time?

Replacement cartridges are provided FREE to owners if they return the "spent" cartridges that are then examined to confirm the activation was due to human flesh.

What if SS changed it s policy and charged $500 regardless of the cause? Before Gass or his company even considered this as a remote possibility, alternative flesh sensing and finger saving technology would have already been around. He and his folks would be too busy to develop the second generation of SS to compete….


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

"examined to confirm the activation was due to human flesh" 
My question is how do they determine this. Is it reliable? Are they reliable? I liken this to an oil change a while back. The kid rubbed his fingers over my wiper blades and said they were cracked and needed replacing. I told him I would do it myself. They were new! I have never been back.
I don't hate SS, I just won't buy one, even if I could afford it. I didn't sue the knife manufacturer when I cut my finger making a salad. Three stitches and $310! Now, my wife won't let me make the salad, for some reason. I did buy a protective glove at a restaurant supply.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I use Fedora


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

agallant, I wear a Stetson.  lol


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## Beeguy (Jun 11, 2008)

For my day job I work in Product Safety for a large chemical company. I have spent a good part of my career working in Safety. I write those Material Safety Data Sheets and product labels that you all are suppose to read but never do. Years ago we worked really hard to try and give as much good information as possible. Then you had to start writing these thinking that the only person that will read them is the plaintiff attorney. They would look at the latest version of one document and then ask why all documents are not updated to this level. For some of these we have thousands of customers, for others maybe only one or two. But it became evident that you had to treat them all the same, so what evolved in the industry is legally compliant document that is very generic. When you have to manage 30,000+ documents in a variety of languages, and you have to make sure that they are all "equally good" then something has to give. My whole point is that once lawyers get involved everything goes downhill. Not meant to be a slam on lawyers, as they are just doing their job. But it does have an overall negative affect.

I have also learned that no matter how hard you try and prevent accidents sooner or later they happen. The SS may be one way of preventing that. But as I said in an earlier post, I would like one but since this is only a hobby for me, I can't justify the expense. And yes you can argue there is no price on safety. But I have found from experience that the only way to keep someone from getting hurt doing a job (task) 100% of the time is to not let them do it. Once you decide to allow the job it all becomes a risk vs. cost discussion. Your goal is to minimize both sides of the equation. If all it meant was just spend a whole lot of money then I guess I, and many like me, would be out of a job. In order to minimize the risk and keep down the associated costs, you develop procedures to try an eliminate the hazards.

Even though most safety professionals will disagree, I don't think all accidents are preventable 100% of the time, but the huge majority sure are. In most cases when someone gets injured it is usually could have been prevented if they followed procedures and/or used the safety equipment. How many of you wear eye protection all the time in the shop? I have a pair of glasses that are 30 years old that I keep around as a reminder. They have acid etches across the front. I cracked a process line that "according to the gauges" had zero pressure. Had I not been wearing these I would not be seeing very well today. When I watch the home improvement shows and see people working without them I just cringe.

I still think the SS concept is great, and would like to see one in every school where woodworking is taught. But for a large majority of us that can't or won't buy one, it does not mean we will all be counting to less than ten. I own a set of Grrippers. I use them most of the time, but not always. I made a resolution to use them almost always or at least when there is any chance of an accident. I moved them to a location so they will always be accessable. Is this better or equal to the protection offered by SS? No but I have significantly reduced the risk at a fraction of the cost.

I know I would get fired if I did at work, what I do at home. Most of the time the choices I make are dumb and only to save time or because I am lazy. That is the biggest contributor to most accidents. I remember my first boss once saying, "don't ever let me see you do this". Again, all I can say is if you take your time and use the right tool/technique for the job, you will greatly reduce your risk of getting hurt.

Good luck and work safe!


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## rep (Nov 20, 2009)

Very entertaining thread. Since the OP asked for reasons from "haters" I will not post an opinion on the saw, but just a comment on the thread.

I am somewhat amazed at how entrenched some are for their opinions and beliefs - especially ones based on information that is probably untrue or misrepresented. I too believe in standing up for what you believe, but I want to know that what I believe is based on complete, factual information. What is one person's deciding factor, can be absurd reasoning to another (especially without supporting facts). Emotion and passion are not facts. Some are open to (their definition of) reason, and others don't see anything but their own views. The best I can see is agreement to disagree. This in itself is not so unusual in the world, but I wonder why it is such a big deal on most all the SS threads I have read?

I will agree with one poster that it seems the "haters" are focused on Steven Gass' ethics, and not the machine. Maybe "it's the principle of the thing" that is driving the passion?


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

100% real story: Someone showed up at my store (where I moonlight once a week) TODAY with the thumb bandaged like a mummy. When asked, he said he was ripping wood and cut his thumb into the spinning blade!!! He wanted to sell his General 3 HP cabinet tablesaw and asked if his for-sale note could be posted. His asking price for the saw (2 years old) is $2,000 Cdn but he welcomes best offers.

What is he now buying as his replacement saw? The Sawstop.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Knothead 26:

"In addition, the brake cartridges store the electronic data measured during an accident. If you return the activated cartridge to SawStop, we can retrieve that data to learn how the electronics and software performed. Once we verify the activation was due to contact with skin, we will be happy to send you a free replacement cartridge in exchange." 
(Source: http://www.sawstop.com/support/contractor/warranty.php )

Any electronic engineers on the forum to give us some idea on how the verification can be done? Personally, I'll take their word for it because the cartridges don't cost them an arm and a leg and they wouldn't want or need any negative reputation spread by their own customers on such a small point. They've established themselves so well now in the tablesaw market that they have reduced their live "hot dog" demonstrations/appearances.

As for whether one should buy a SS or not, the usual advice goes: Buy the best tools you can afford. If a person can't afford to buy a SS ($2500 Cdn for a contractor saw), so be it. That's a risk that person should be aware of. On the other hand, if one has $2500 and is wondering if he or she should go for a SS or brand X tablesaw for the same price, the choice is easy to make.


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

This happened on a jointer. I was using push blocks and the the board decided to go backwards and took the blocks with it. My left hand came down before the gate closed and hit the blades. So I got to thinking, if I was doing everything by the book and this happened, what could happen on my table saw?

I design interactive insurance forms and type all day. I was lucky that I only lost a week at work. but have to go for hand therapy to get the fingers to not be so sensitive. i can tell when a storm is coming.

Spend a little to put the odds a little more in your favor. It is like an insurance policy, you do't know if you are going to have to collect on it.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

mrg, your post just hit me like a ton of bricks. In another words, it hit home…..... A split second is all it takes. When did this happen? Have you been back in the shop?
- SY


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

This happened back in November. My hand actually looks bettter now than when the bottom picture was taken about 3 weeks ago. I haven't been in my shop but have done sanding helping a friend with his kitchen build. I have enough of a normal feeling in my hand that I may try working in the shop this week. Next weekend wil tell because I am taking a shop class so that should be a good test.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Neil..
Thanks for posting that link to the McDonalds coffee lawsuit. I have heard people (including me!) quoting that case as an example of a frivolous lawsuit for years. The article was fascinating, and now I know all the facts.


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## SPHinTampa (Apr 23, 2008)

Very off topic .. but since I was asked.

Deke, a monopoly because you release a product that everyone has to have … e.g. Ipod or Windows … is one thing.

A monopoly because you legislate it, very different in my mind.


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh no! This topic has been resurrected from the dead…


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## tommyt654 (Dec 16, 2008)

I can afford it but would not buy it because it makes folks lacadaisical when using power tools.The Unisaw has been made in the US for quite sometime now,not Taiwan like the SS. Its not a bad saw but compared to a Unisaw its no better or worse other than the fact its totally unproven and all the stats are being referenced from outdated sources or those from the manufacturer himself. Sooner or later it will fail (all electrics do eventually) and when it does then what! Your right back to where you were before you bought it. Use the best and safest tool made,The one between your ears and you'll never have to worry about being bit by a table saw or any other tool for that matter.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

I am still waiting for the 'I had a table saw accident and hurt myself but am still glad that I did not have a sawstop' thread.


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## againstthegrain (Feb 16, 2008)

I have to "snicker" at that last comment!!


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I have nothing against the saw itself, or the technology, what issue I have is the way that Steve Gass (the inventor of SawStop) misusing copyright and patent, in combination with litigation to advance his product at the cost of the safety and freedom of choice of woodworkers. To have a monopoly on a product that people WANT is one thing, to have a monopoly on a product you are using the force of Government regulation and the courts to FORCE as being the only choice on the market is a completely different animal.


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## brianinpa (Mar 16, 2008)

See JuniorJock, I told this thread would keep on going!


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

You're right Brian…........... but it is kind of entertaining.
- JJ


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

"misusing copyright and patent, in combination with litigation to advance his product at the cost of the safety and freedom of choice of woodworkers"

Please show some links DB, or explain where you get your information, otherwise all these anti-Gass rants are little more than frothy gossip. -Jack


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm petty and shallow. I don't buy Veritas planes because I think they're ugly. I also think the SawStop is ugly. I'm offended by the legal wrangling but there's plenty of that to go around everwhere, not just in woodworking. I have no doubt that the SawStop is an excellent machine, as the Veritas is an excellent plane. Safety aside (which is something I do every day in some way), it just wouldn't give me "that feeling" that a big Powermatic would when I gaze at it from across the shop. Like I said, petty. Shallow. It is what it is.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't hate SawStop. I hate having something forced down my throat. Even more, I hate having something forced down my throat by the Government. I dislike Gass for attempting to us the Government to do his dirty work.

Put it (the SawStop) on the market and let the free market place determine whether it will survive or not.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

From what I understand Sawstop is doing pretty well. No one is requiring their technology and when I bought mine at Wood Craft the guys were telling me that no one was buying anything else, people are buying sawstops. It is a good product. A bit over priced but I was able to justify it by thinking that I was making the copayment upfront.


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## RobWoodCutter (Jul 22, 2009)

From Sawstop website FAQ:

"26. Can I get a serious injury using a SawStop Saw?

ANSWER: In the vast majority of cases, coming in contact with the spinning blade will result in a minor cut. However, if your hand moves into the blade at very high speed, it is possible for you to receive a serious injury. "

Seems that most of injury stories you read on the web say: " it happened in a blink of an eye",

HUH??

Rob


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## rum (Apr 28, 2011)

Don't hate, considered it seriously then ordered a Hammer B3 instead. Reasoning:
- keeps my hands and body more away from the saw altogether, this just seemed safer at all levels. Every "oh crap" moment I've had with a TS was due (one way or another) to kickback so that was a significant concern for me. I believe (having spent a number of years trying to not injure myself and read a ridiculous # of posts when deciding on the new saw) that most of the hand->blade accidents are also kickback related (excepting the occasional foolishness of reaching over the blade to catch or move something).

- has significantly greater capabilities (lesser importance but still a factor).

If SS had a format slider.. well maybe I'd have bought that instead and gotten the best of both worlds. Note the slider hasn't arrived yet so this is still somewhat speculative.

Edit: the B3 definitely is NOT cheaper than the SS either.


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## DougH (Jan 14, 2011)

I think the saw is a good saw and the technology is good. I would probably buy one if i was in the market for a cabinet saw.

I am however; totally against the goverment intervention and the way saw stop is pushing for the intervention. The goverment has there nose in way too much. With the right jury, it seems you can win any law suit. The real issue is how in this great country a jury could have sided with this guy.


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## glassyeyes (Apr 14, 2009)

My, my, this is a lively conversation. Has ANYONE changed their minds, though?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I don't hate SawStop … I have used a SawStop cabinet saw and it is a pretty decent tool. But I am happy with my Jet, and practice good safety measures when I am using it.

If the day comes that I decide to replace it, SawStop is one of the tools I would certainly consider. Maybe by that time there will be other 'flesh-sending' technologies available to choose from.

So to answer 'glassyeyes' question … no, I have not changed my mind.

-Gerry


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## Furnitude (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm sure I will regret commenting on this topic. I will just use a simple analogy. You have two identical cars-one has seatbelts and airbags, the other does not. Which one is empirically safer?


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## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

As many have stated above, MOST of the SAWSTOP bashing is aimed at the inventor … not the machine. I'd love to see a survey of SAWSTOP *OWNERS* to get their respective reviews on the machine. We bought one where I used to work, mainly because it was Maintenance Mechanics who only occasionally used the table saw, and virtually none of them was ever really trained in it's use. We used to have a PM66 and used it to cut mostly LEXAN which provides it's own unique properties … I showed our Plant Manager the SAWSTOP video, and he had us order one on the spot. It's a candy factory, and all of our production line guards were made out of stainless steel and LEXAN. Whenever a guard was needed, the Maintenance guys had to be able to custom make it … after a few kickbacks on the PM66, most of the guys were a bit gun shy about using it … after we got the SAWSTOP *AND* some proper blades for cutting plastics, all went well.

With the price of UNI's climbing as they are, I do believe I just might soon be the proud owner of a SAWSTOP myself. I refuse to let politics and/or dislike of a company's owner get in the way of protecting myself. I believe that is a very childish posture to take. It is a truly wonderful saw to work with … plenty of power … GREAT, FLAT table … great fence … very simple & rugged blade elevation mechanism … good dust collection … perfect finish, inside & out … ALL good reasons why it is a bit more expensive … but worth it.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Well said, Fuzzy.

One of the members of our local turner's club is the sales manager of a fairly good-sized local machinery dealer. They handle a wide range of brands (Delta, Jet, General Intl, etc.) as well as SawStop.

At our club meeting Saturday, we were talking about table saws … he said they sell SawStops like hotcakes. He said they've sold a few Jets, and since the 'new' UniSaw was introduced (seems like about 2 years ago?) they have not sold a single one.

-Gerry


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I actually don't like the saw for aesthetic reasons. I think the inventor is just another shrewd lawyer trying to make a buck by doing what he does best, lawyering. He's probably a scumbag but that's not very novel these days. I may be vain, petty, and superficial but I think the SawStop looks like a black lacquer piano, emblazoned with colorful logos. If it was all grey and industrial looking, devoid of all the makeup, I'd probably buy one.

That, my friends, is how shallow I am.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

I have been thinking about what cabinet tablesaw I want when I get a bigger shop and some money (in a few years) and I'm stuck between the Delta Unisaw and the SawStop. If Delta invents another saftey mechanism like the SawStops, I'll get the Delta hands down.

Al, I'm with you on the apperence. I don't want a saw that is made to look good. I want a saw that is made to work good. I actually perfer the cast iron/industrial look.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

FWIW … I like not only the looks of the Delta UniSaw, but also the fact that it is built in the U.S. Yes, I know, it has some foreign-made parts, but key components (e.g. motors, castings, etc.) are manufactured in plants here in the U.S. I know … my brother-in-law works in a foundry that makes the cast-iron table tops.

-Gerry


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

SawStop looks are a turn off for me as well and that they're made in Taiwan. As far as looks go, a General is what I'd be after and they're made in North America to boot. I just don't know how they compare with the others - performance, features, durability, etc.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't hate SS. It is my choice to use it or not, but I object to it's use being mandated If I cut off a finger, then I'm the one who has to deal with it. At 77, I still have all 10 digits. I think I can afford a finger or two. If I were just starting out, the SS might make more sense. The best insurance is to know your saw and it's dangers and always stay focused around it. It's the same thing with firearms. Both are potentially dangerous Know and respect both and you will prevail.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry for reviving this thread but it seems to be one of the most comprehensive and I don't think the forums need yet another SawStop thread. The reason I'm posting is that I had a Google Alert for SawStop pop up the other day, and I was really excited until I saw that SawStop had filed yet another lawsuit against the rest of the table saw industry. http://www.law360.com/articles/513243/power-tool-makers-accused-of-snubbing-saw-safety-system

Anyway, the general consensus seems to be that SawStop has solidly-designed saws and the technology is very important (though there will always be naysayers who have been fortunate enough not to have cut off a digit…yet). Really the best objective comparison I've found so far has been Woodcraft Magazine's 2009 face-off between the SawStop PCS and the Delta Unisaw. Can anyone confirm whether the SawStop's weakneses in that article have been addressed-in particular, the pine framing for the extension table and the lower-quality fence faces (5-ply with gaps in the plies, and not flat because of overtightening from the factory)? If you're buying the saw for the blade brake, these shouldn't be considered deal-breakers, but they may be an indication of overall fit and finish compared to a comparably-priced saw.

Aside from the fact that I've already decided to buy a SawStop if and when I buy a table saw, it really turns me off when Stephen Gass and his company continue to spend money on lobbying and litigation. When they do this, it makes me think they aren't selling as many saws as they would have us believe, and the company is in danger of going under unless the industry can be forced to license his patents. When you say on one hand, "Safety is our one and only concern," but on the other hand you're suing your competitors for not licensing your technology, there's a clear conflict of interest which just doesn't sit well with many people.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

If you get the pcs be sure the safety guard is the better one. The standard guard on the PCS 1.75 is terrible. You can't raise it and that drives me up a wall. I am going to upgrade to the better guard.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

"practice good safety measures when I am using it." 
That is true with any tool- table saw or screwdriver.
Have you noticed all the safety items on a car? But…......not one penny is spent on making a safe driver.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Here's a link to another article. IMO the power tool manufacturers did conspire against Gass and probably broke the law. -Jack


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Trying to make everything safer so the user can't hurt themselves will make for a truly dull world. +1 to the safer driver comment, some countries you actually have to know how to drive to be allowed, someday that might be the case here too. Before long you won't even have to know how to use a tablesaw, if you get too close to the blade the lane departure system will guide you away and automatically apply the brakes, make sure you're awake and deploy the airbag all at the same time. A new saw will set you back $40,000, but it'll be safe!


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## Kryptic (Nov 8, 2013)

if I were in the medical insurance business, I would hate saw stop, as I would loose 1 cent, for every 200K calls he made using his index finger that cant be lopped off at the joint


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Woodmaster, thanks for the recommendation…now I remember seeing the difference between the two guards and thinking it looked pretty worthless. Thanks for the reminder.

Jack, that's a much better link than the one I posted. I really want to know more about this alternative safety system that the industry giants developed in 2009.

If there were more saw models with advanced safety systems on the market, I think it would be consumer market pressure more than fear of litigation that would force more widespread adoption. If a manufacturer has some models with the safety system and others without it, then it's the consumer's own fault if he/she buys the model without the safety system and cuts off a finger.


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## Kryptic (Nov 8, 2013)

and then are those who think they can stop "stupid"

: ))


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

I am not exactly a hater. I would never own one. My reasons are a little different. I want my 70's PM66 to be the last saw I ever need. it is dependable and always works. with the SS parts and repairs are a concern me. I can get the consumable parts (belts, switches, bearings,or a motor)anywhere. With SS you can only get parts from them. In 30 years will they be there for support??? I would hate to buy a saw and later in life find out you have a very pricey bench.


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## Tim78 (May 6, 2011)

I cannot get parts for a Delta motor from a dust collector nor can I get parts for a less than ten year old Delta table saw. The future is here and I bought it, a Sawstop. I really like the ease of the riving knife change and appreciate the extra millimeter thickness of the metal for the angle iron and tube of the fence. The patents for the Sawstop will be over in twenty years total. All manufactures will be selling one by then. The first saw I see at Rockler and Woodcraft is the Sawstop. I look forward to buying other Sawstop products that have safety built-in. I applaud Dr. Gass for suing the tool manufactures for conspiring to stop his inventions. For the record, I do not work for Sawstop nor own any shares in the company.


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## Kryptic (Nov 8, 2013)

I hate how saw stop pays for itself by avoiding a freshly sawn off finger from dropping on the floor

nasty bastards : )

I have no vested interest in sawstop and nor do i own one yet but I do I wonder how much money it would save healthcare systems, that are over ridden with profits, paid for by pions by rewarding investors with the american view of fiscal impossibilities ?


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

DELETE


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## Kryptic (Nov 8, 2013)

too late agallant ….

cats out of the bag

i dislike sawstop cuz they violate my right to remove my fingers in the manner of my choosing and be damned if yer not gonna pay …. more taxes ? but again I choose not to take sides and let the crowds yield a countable vote, where the majority wins every time.

at some point, I hate the portion of the equation where people tell me what I dont want to hear and retain the right to at some point, leave my mind open for discussion reserving the right to switch sides.


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## nashley (Nov 25, 2014)

"If you don't stick your hand in the blade it won't cut you" 
(This is what my father told me when I was first learning to use a table saw.)

He's been building cabinets for over 25 years, has never used a blade guard or a riving knife and has never had an accident with a power tool. I've only ever seen him use a push stick when cutting widths narrower than his thumb. I learned to use the table saw when I was 12 and have yet to have an accident, either.

You could call it luck but my father has always had a very healthy respect for his power tools.

I'm ok with buying a car with an airbag because there are a lot of drunk and stupid people out there that I have no control over. But, I've yet to see a saw blade that had one too many, veered across the miter slot and collided with my hand.

I'm not trying to boast or say that anyone who has had an accident wanted to stick their hand in the blade. But, I am saying that "If you don't stick your hand in the blade, it won't cut you".


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

The inventor of SawStop did stoke the fires of litigation against table saw companies in their own interest. They might not be 100% to blame but they didn't help the situation either. That litigation is the number 1 reason there are so few table saws left on the market and with Sawstops newish portable table saw I wouldn't be surprised if the smaller ones go the same way as the larger models have.

However after having used a SawStop for some time in 2 different shops I have to say it's a great saw. They didn't just bolt the blade brake onto a crappy 2nd rate saw and depend on the brake to sell it like a lot of companies would have. I would say the saw is as good as anything made today in the 10" small commercial market.

I am disappointed what is happening to the table saw market overall. I am a SawStop convert myself and my next tablesaw will be a SawStop but that doesn't mean I think the technology should be forced on everyone. It should be a choice not a requirement.

As for those that say don't put your fingers in the blade and there is no issue that is over simplifying things. A lot of things can happen to put your hands into the blade that are more than carelessness. Kickback can take your hand in very unpredictable directions and faster than any of us can respond. The school I attended last year had a student cutting a board on end when it tipped over and his hand landed palm first on the blade of the SawStop. He probably could have been doing that safer but I'm sure everyone in that shop that day was happy that saw had a brake on it. You might go your whole life and never have a accident with a table saw but one day of little less attention than normal or one board that doesn't behave like you expect it to and you will pay for the saw's premium 10 times over.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

unwatch

interesting viewpoints


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

The attempted political leverage used by the inventor for personal gain prioritized above the safety of others. This has, as mentioned before, resulted in fewer table saw options thus, fewer potential opportunities for technological advances in safety, ease of operation, durability, longevity, etc. The fewer manufacturers you have offering you a product, the less competition = higher price & improvement stagnation. That's why I hate sawstop.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

Wow I started this thread in 2010 and its back to life. Since then I have owned one, sold it and now have a unisaw. Like anything else in life its a matter of preference. Some people think they are too high prices, others hate the company litigation, some think its unnecessary and others thing its its a huge advancement in technology and safety.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

The longevity of SawStop is not known.. and since they represent less than 1% of the saws sold in the US, I question their ability to stand the test of time and the availability of replacement parts in the future. Too many machines have been relegated to the scrap heap, even from large well known manufacturers, simply because some specialized part is no longer available, particularly electronics. I don't want to buy a machine that in 10 years will be sold for the price of scrap metal because parts are no longer available to fix it, and no other alternatives exist.

There is a reason why the Unisaw, PM66 and other high end cabinet saws are still around and well regarded. For the most part, replacement bearings and belts are about the only things that are required to keep them going. Not so with the SS.

Cheers,
Brad


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

The 10" saws are a little small for the wood I get from a mill. The saw I am using is a 1968 Delta 12/14". With a 14" blade it can cut 5" depth…..but, it can also use 7 1/4" blades. Nice for cutting re-claimed wood. The saw has a changeable sub arbor so about any blade size or hole size can be fitted. Even those old scary shaping heads.
The SS, appears to be strictly limited to a 10" blade, and 8" dado….. Grizzly made some versions of the 12-14"-G5959 was one.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

long live the thread of opinions.

Its really too bad that confidence is silent, and insecurities are loud but sometimes we have to do what is best for our lives, and not the lives of everybody else, thus why the 'unwatch" button doesn't always work on threads that are 5 years old with 25,000 replies. It claims it works but obviously in my case it doesn't.

I dont have a sawstop but if I did I would listen to the music of Leonard Cowen very loud and have people dance around me whilst I played on the saw, knowing I would wake up and still be able to play the piano with all its scales of sound which might explain the organist at our church. Apparently had he a saw-stop, the music would sound better and I don't know but when I watch his face and listen to the music, I kinda think he's deaf too, perhaps he avoided ear plugs, I don't know but I love the look of his happy face when he plays on that relic called an organ : )


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

No real reason. I applaud the SS technology, but I prefer the tried and proven older saw technology. I've driven a car for 60 years and paid for insurance. I never had an accident that involved injury to myself or others. If I didn't have to carry insurance, I wouldn't.


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## Bill7255 (Feb 23, 2012)

Brad, where did you get that 1% of sales. Doesn't sound right.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

JUST STOP. If you want it and can afford it buy it. I don't and probably will never own one, not because I HATE the product, but because I won't spend the money for the hype, and do not feel that I need one. We all have our limits. Really, there is a lot more pressing issues to worry about rather than if someone doesn't like your favorite table saw. Move on.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Brad, where did you get that 1% of sales. Doesn t sound right.


CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission).. from transcripts of meetings (2007) regarding implementing table saw safety features.. prompted by SawStops petition back when it was trying to force it as part of their TS regulations. When asked about sales, they stated that somewhere between 700,000 to 800,000 table saws are sold each year in the US (inclusive). In 2014, Sawstop reported selling it's 50,000th saw since it's first prototype in 2001. That works out to less than 4,000 a year. You can do the math 

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Also noted was that digit amputations from DOORS accounted for about the same amount yearly as do those from table saws, and that DOORS account for about 10 times more accidents in general than table saws. Just saying.


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## screwikea (Feb 1, 2013)

> CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission).. from transcripts of meetings (2007) regarding implementing table saw safety features.. prompted by SawStops petition back when it was trying to force it as part of their TS regulations. When asked about sales, they stated that somewhere between 700,000 to 800,000 table saws are sold each year in the US (inclusive). In 2014, Sawstop reported selling it s 50,000th saw since it s first prototype in 2001. That works out to less than 4,000 a year. You can do the math
> 
> PS: Also noted was that digit amputations from DOORS accounted for about the same amount yearly as do those from table saws, and that DOORS account for about 10 times more accidents in general than table saws. Just saying.


Food for thought:

"SawStop is North America's #1 table saw" is all over their marketing, although I suspect they're referring to their cabinet saws.

As for doors-it's not a correlation that makes sense in this context. Sheer quantity of people using doors daily dwarfs table saw usage. If you were to compare percentage of table saw users and injuries to door users and injuries, I think it's a safe assumption that there's a much larger table saw user injury percentage.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

In installed a new toilet. It has the new type of lid. You need only pull on it and walk away. It falls closed slowly.

I cannot count the times I've treated others' toilets like they were mine and just tugged on the lid, to discover they did not have the slow close feature. Each time, it was noisy and that I had just "put down" the toilet lid was obvious to anyone nearby and outside the room.

Habits are part of human nature and food for thought.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> Wow I started this thread in 2010 and its back to life. Since then I have owned one, sold it and now have a unisaw.
> 
> - agallant


Agallant - - Just curious, what was it that made you sell it and buy a unisaw (assuming you had the 3000 dollar PCS) so roughly equivalent target markets, not a Sawstop contractor moving to a Unisaw.

kind of wondering, what was disagreeable enough to sell it.. I have a unisaw and have used a sawstop, I like the safety idea, but cannot see a big enough 'usability' factor, to justify one over the other.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

[/QUOTE]



> Brad, where did you get that 1% of sales. Doesn t sound right.
> 
> CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission).. from transcripts of meetings (2007) regarding implementing table saw safety features.. prompted by SawStops petition back when it was trying to force it as part of their TS regulations. When asked about sales, they stated that somewhere between 700,000 to 800,000 table saws are sold each year in the US (inclusive). In 2014, Sawstop reported selling it s 50,000th saw since it s first prototype in 2001. That works out to less than 4,000 a year. You can do the math
> 
> ...


Every one uses a door, relatively few use table saws. That is a poor comparison.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

I've got a shirt that says "World's Greatest Dad".. although my neighbor has one also, so both can't be right (yet both CAN be wrong)!! Food for thought 

Cheers,
Brad

And apparently there are some who missed the "Just saying" bit!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> . Sheer quantity of people using doors daily dwarfs table saw usage.
> 
> - screwikea


Bingo - - - just like there are a lot of Automobile injuries and fatalities, because we are in cars ALL the time!


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

The political objection is irrelevant at this point. What's more important: boycotting a greedy, opportunistic, litigious capitalist inventor who doesn't even know you're whining about him; or possibly reducing your chance of a serious injury? I got over it and bought a nice saw that I plan on using for at least the next 30-40 years, or as long as my health permits.

I'm not afraid of an imminent lack of repair parts. If the cartridges or other brake system components become scarce, someone will publish instructions or sell a product to permanently bypass the safety system. Worst-case scenario, I'll start counting how many fingers I might have lost on a non-SawStop saw, and if I decide I'm not accident-prone maybe I'll buy a used Unisaw or PM66!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

surely the cure for stupid isnt on this web site : )

the curse of the broken "Stop Watch" button


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## Bill7255 (Feb 23, 2012)

> Brad, where did you get that 1% of sales. Doesn t sound right.
> 
> CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission).. from transcripts of meetings (2007) regarding implementing table saw safety features.. prompted by SawStops petition back when it was trying to force it as part of their TS regulations. When asked about sales, they stated that somewhere between 700,000 to 800,000 table saws are sold each year in the US (inclusive). In 2014, Sawstop reported selling it s 50,000th saw since it s first prototype in 2001. That works out to less than 4,000 a year. You can do the math
> 
> ...


Ok, but those numbers include all the $200 saws. That said Delta and PM cabinets would be in the same situation. Also first years are very low sales. Also SawStop said they now are the number 1 saw sold.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

funny, those who speak the loudest have the most shallow portfolios


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

" If you would not buy Saw stop due to cost, then you would not buy a Uni-saw because of cost. So pricing should NOT be involved in the discussion." 
Because you can by a used uni-saw all day long for 7-900.
I don't own a SS but I do like the safety feature.wish others had it.
As far as the part in my day they didn't have that,yes they also didn't have seat belts in my time.But I sure like that extra safety,yes you still should treat a SS just like any other that doesn't have that,but I do like the fact that it's there,just like a riving knife and blade guard.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*Ok, but those numbers include all the $200 saws.*

Yup.. the report says they represent about 89% of the sales.

Cheers,
Brad


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

sawstop was his name

its not everyones cup of tea


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## Dan658 (Dec 3, 2014)

> As for doors-it s not a correlation that makes sense in this context. Sheer quantity of people using doors daily dwarfs table saw usage. If you were to compare percentage of table saw users and injuries to door users and injuries, I think it s a safe assumption that there s a much larger table saw user injury percentage.
> 
> - screwikea


That's it! I'm going down to my shop right now to invent the "Doorstop". I'm going to make millions!


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

> Wow I started this thread in 2010 and its back to life. Since then I have owned one, sold it and now have a unisaw.
> 
> - agallant
> 
> ...


I had the 1.75hp Contractor saw. It was not a power issue but rather a value issue. It drove me crazy that it cost as much as a Unisaw (after you add on all of the upgrades). I also found myself constantly worried of tripping the break so I was always turning it off. If I got the 3HP PCS I would have kept it due to it being more on par with the competition price wise. Here is my review from a few years ago if you are interested in reading it.

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2416


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

sometimes a flat tire

isnt what we expected when we signed up for it










"i Stopped" isn't always conducive to finishing the race in first place


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> I had the 1.75hp Contractor saw. It was not a power issue but rather a value issue. It drove me crazy that it cost as much as a Unisaw (after you add on all of the upgrades). I also found myself constantly worried of tripping the break so I was always turning it off. If I got the 3HP PCS I would have kept it due to it being more on par with the competition price wise. Here is my review from a few years ago if you are interested in reading it.
> 
> http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2416
> 
> - agallant


Thanks Agallant.
Initially it just didn't make sense that someone would buy a new sawstop (PCS) and decide that 'enough was enough' sell it for a loss, an buy the new Unisaw instead.
First read had me thinking "really?" what could have been so awful?


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## ElChe (Sep 28, 2014)

I like hotdogs and it angers me that so many hotdogs are sacrificed during demonstrations of the saw stop technology.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't Hate the SS , I have access to one at the local Tech Shop and it is great saw as far as I can tell as long as it is maintained properly (this one needs a serious cleanup done ). The Safety part is again a thing that if your going to use a Table Saw then learn to do it right , go to a class and Read the Manual and may attenion to what your doing and you shouldnt ever need it. Of course if you get Stupid it is nice to have it there.
I just recently bought a used Rockwell Contractor type tablesaw made in 1977 that was very well maintained by the prior Owner and as far as I can tell it works as good as the SS. 
I have been useing tablesaws and other power tools since I was about 10 years old (50 Plus years ago ) and I still have all my fingers due to my Dad and Grandfather Pounding Safety into my head long before I ever touched a power tool of any kind.


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## BryonEvans (Feb 4, 2015)

I take the political thing with a grain of salt. What is more bizarre and almost disturbing to me is that so many people have been convinced that they need a table saw to be a woodworker or a carpenter in the first place. I'm 41, been full time woodworking for the last 9 years, part time for 6 before that and spent at least the previous 12 years doing a lot of carpentry and renovations…. and I have not even touched a table saw (other than to move one out of my way) since I was in high school shop class. Panel saws? Hand-held circular saws? Sure, but a table saw? No and not even when I become too old to lift a full sheet or my belly no longer allows me to lean over the strips I'm cutting off.

The only places, in my opinion, that actually need a table saw are shops that do 8, 16 or 24 hour long shifts of cabinetry runs and pay their employees union $s. Anyone not running a cabinetry business that buys any type of table saw is pretty obviously appeasing some kind of inner issue. If you need more than a bandsaw then a straight edge, some horses or tables and a hand-held circular saw are more than enough. And for those doing odd-ball relief cuts on table saws… really? Get over yourselves. It's as impressive as CNC milling something and then calling it a "carving". You're jerking your own chain and no one else's.

It's probably more annoying to me because I live in an area where 6/10 vehicles on the road are huge 4-door pickup trucks that are always occupied by ONE person, are never hauling anything, have trailer hitches that don't even have scratches on them and most are only used to shuttle ONE guy from his garage to his office or job where he works as a machinist. I see the symptoms of over-compensation every day of the week. To me, blowing $40,000 on a truck that gets 14mpg just so you can feel like a *man* is right up there with spending $2,000+ on a table saw that sucks down 12-15amps of power… +who knows what in extra gadgets for it - so the machine can give you a "perfect" result… just about defines the word pathetic.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Wood workers that need a table saw, what are they thinking???


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have a Sawstop and l feel so bad wasting electricity. I felt bad too driving my SUV through 18 inches of snow…so wasteful to feel like a man.

To each his own. I love my Sawstop and my SUV.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

@BryonEvans, You have no projects posted. I would be interested in seeing your work. I also get accomplishing the same thing as others with less. I tease my friends at the range who have $2,000+ in their rifles that I shoot same size groups with my $500 rig.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> I have a Sawstop and l feel so bad wasting electricity. I felt bad too driving my SUV through 18 inches of snow…so wasteful to feel like a man.


Right on! And while we're going this direction, I hate snowblowers, too. Anyone that can't shovel that 18 inches of snow needs to have their man-card revoked! LOL


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't understand why anyone needs anything beyond an adz and ax…maybe a few chisels. Anyone that admits owning circular saws or panel saws is just jerking their own chain and trying to show how much of a man they think they are.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

This thread is funny. I like the "need" part. As to someone who said you don't "NEED" a Harley, I replied, Madam, need has nothing to do with it. Long live the thread!


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## abie (Jan 28, 2008)

Our wood shop here in a Northern Calif retirement community has 2 saw stops and used them for five years.
Yes they are troublesome when changing blades, however we have had 15 saw stop triggers and only one small nick on the hand.
there are 35 retired people ( supervisors) using the shop Week days, many more on and off over this time frame.
Kick back some times but no injuries..
Speaks highly of the machine and its Function in keeping fingers intact.
NUff said.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I have a question for those that have the machine.

Can it operate with no brake installed?

Asking basically that lets say you don't engage the override, and hit a staple in pressure treated wood and teh brake goes off….but you don't have a spare cartridge.

Are you screwed until a new one comes in? or can you put on a different blade and finish the job in the 'override' mode?


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> As for doors-it s not a correlation that makes sense in this context. Sheer quantity of people using doors daily dwarfs table saw usage. If you were to compare percentage of table saw users and injuries to door users and injuries, I think it s a safe assumption that there s a much larger table saw user injury percentage.
> 
> - screwikea
> 
> ...


hahaha! make sure it's electronic.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

> I have a question for those that have the machine.
> 
> Can it operate with no brake installed?
> 
> ...


Like anything else with a computer controlling it I am sure it can be hacked but unless you want to play around with fooling software its best that you keep an extra break. Don't forget the extra blade too because it will destroy that in the process too. I think the dado break is $89 and the 10 inch blade break is $69. It can add up. $120 for a new WWII blade and $69 for a new break. You just paid $190 for that staple you didn't see in the wood which is why I was always disabling the break which is why I sold the saw.


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## BryonEvans (Feb 4, 2015)

@agallant I'll be posting some projects soon. Many of the photos I have now are of renovation work and projects from years back. My main issue with table saws is like the Stones lyrics about some marketing guy on television saying "Can't be a man cause he doesn't smoke… the same cigarettes as me…". The hype is out of control. Sure, they have uses but I see people who are convinced they need a 5,000 sqft shop and $10,000 of equipment before they can start making things best done on a $500 scroll saw with a footprint of 5 sqft. It's like, >.<


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Based on the Sawstop website, hitting a small staple will not usually trigger the brake. I check my boards especially 2×4s and plywood for staples. I have no idea why they need 1000 staples in 2×4s or plywood. Some wood has plastic staples now.

I have hit staples a couple of times without it triggering. If I am concerned I have a cheap HF metal detector that works well.

The only trigger that I have encountered was the aluminum on my miter gauge…just plain stupidity. The blade and brake are now mounted on the wall near the saw as a reminder.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Redoak, could the blade have been salvaged from your miter gauge mishap?


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> I have a question for those that have the machine.
> 
> Can it operate with no brake installed?
> 
> ...


You need to have the brake in, but it can be bypassed with the key switch on the side. You can test the material prior to cutting and it's as easy as holding the material against the blade and touching the wood with your hand. The indicator light will blink if it would cause a trip (blade not spinning). As to a staple causing it no. There is a vid on you tube with a guy that drives a nail into the end of a 2×4 and cuts through it and it does not trip it.

I keep a spare cartridge on the shelf should a mishap ever occur, but hope it does not. I have more than one TS blade so I could function. If I ever do have a trip (god forbid), I'll take that cost over what the alternative cost will be for an emergency visit, and life changing event which if you listen to victims, is pretty nasty. Hope that answers your question. Take care.


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## Dan658 (Dec 3, 2014)

> I take the political thing with a grain of salt. What is more bizarre and almost disturbing to me is that so many people have been convinced that they need a table saw to be a woodworker or a carpenter in the first place. I m 41, been full time woodworking for the last 9 years, part time for 6 before that and spent at least the previous 12 years doing a lot of carpentry and renovations…. and I have not even touched a table saw (other than to move one out of my way) since I was in high school shop class. Panel saws? Hand-held circular saws? Sure, but a table saw? No and not even when I become too old to lift a full sheet or my belly no longer allows me to lean over the strips I m cutting off.
> 
> The only places, in my opinion, that actually need a table saw are shops that do 8, 16 or 24 hour long shifts of cabinetry runs and pay their employees union $s. Anyone not running a cabinetry business that buys any type of table saw is pretty obviously appeasing some kind of inner issue. If you need more than a bandsaw then a straight edge, some horses or tables and a hand-held circular saw are more than enough. And for those doing odd-ball relief cuts on table saws… really? Get over yourselves. It s as impressive as CNC milling something and then calling it a "carving". You re jerking your own chain and no one else s.
> 
> ...


Welcome?

Do I need a house when I could live in a tent? Do I need a car to get to work when I could just walk? Do I need nice clothes when I could just wear a potato sack? Do I really NEED any "woodworking" tool since I have sharp rocks and sticks in my backyard?


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The question on if the blade could be salvaged is a good one. The blade in my case was a Freud rip blade. I would not use a blade involved in a brake activation unless it was looked at and repaired by someone like Forrest. Since my blade was not expensive I figured the cost to salvage it was more than it was worth. If it had been a Forrest blade I would have had it repaired.

I would never put a damaged or suspected damaged blade in my saw. The carbide could come out like a bullet. Others have expressed different thoughts about what should be done with a blade.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> The question on if the blade could be salvaged is a good one. The blade in my case was a Freud rip blade. I would not use a blade involved in a brake activation unless it was looked at and repaired by someone like Forrest. Since my blade was not expensive I figured the cost to salvage it was more than it was worth. If it had been a Forrest blade I would have had it repaired.
> 
> I would never put a damaged or suspected damaged blade in my saw. The carbide could come out like a bullet. Others have expressed different thoughts about what should be done with a blade.
> 
> - Redoak49


I'm with you on that. I use Forrest blades have since forever. Even with that, don't know If I'd have it fixed or not. Probably, just stick it on the wall as a reminder


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## Domer (Mar 8, 2009)

Well, I am one of the satisfied SawStop owners and users. I have had my saw for around 5 years. I have had a couple of occasions to call customer service. It was not the problem with the saw that prompted the call but as they say it was the nut behind the wheel.

Their customer service is as good as any I have ever used. Their people are knowledgeable, courteous, and take the time to listen to the problem before answering.

It is a great piece of machinery that acts as advertised.

Almost all of the posts I have seen on this site knocking the saw are by people who do not own or use one.

As regards the owner, it tried to sell the technology to the other table saw manufacturers and was turned down by all of them. One of my nephews just cut his hand really bad a couple of months ago on a saw without the technology and his medical costs would have bought a bunch of SawStops.


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## BryonEvans (Feb 4, 2015)

@Dan658 Seems all you need is a clue.


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## Dan658 (Dec 3, 2014)

> The question on if the blade could be salvaged is a good one. The blade in my case was a Freud rip blade. I would not use a blade involved in a brake activation unless it was looked at and repaired by someone like Forrest. Since my blade was not expensive I figured the cost to salvage it was more than it was worth. If it had been a Forrest blade I would have had it repaired.
> 
> I would never put a damaged or suspected damaged blade in my saw. The carbide could come out like a bullet. Others have expressed different thoughts about what should be done with a blade.
> 
> ...


My neighborhood Lee Valley has a bin of blades embedded in the brakes since they do a demonstration every Saturday and almost all of them have loose carbide on them. Some are more obvious than others. I've read online somewhere about some people digging out their blade and reusing it, but high speed carbide tips flying through the air would make me nervous. I know nothing of having blades repaired though. What would something like that cost?

A Forrest blade in a brake is some expensive wall art!


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## Dan658 (Dec 3, 2014)

> @Dan658 Seems all you need is a clue.
> 
> - BryonEvans


Thanks for the tip.


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## Domer (Mar 8, 2009)

I have sent several blades back to Forest that got embedded in the brake and they were able to fix them for not a lot more than the cost of sharpening them.

I do not know about any other brands.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> I have sent several blades back to Forest that got embedded in the brake and they were able to fix them for not a lot more than the cost of sharpening them.
> 
> I do not know about any other brands.
> 
> - Domer


What did that set you back? ($$ wise)


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## jakep_82 (Feb 1, 2012)

> The only places, in my opinion, that actually need a table saw are shops that do 8, 16 or 24 hour long shifts of cabinetry runs and pay their employees union $s. Anyone not running a cabinetry business that buys any type of table saw is pretty obviously appeasing some kind of inner issue.
> - BryonEvans


Is it normal for you to join a forum so you can tell everyone you're right, and they're wrong? I wish the block function on this website also hid posts from that user.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

that would be a tough kettle of fish to shoot out of a barrel, if you could put saws in the bottom of a fish barrel, fill the barrel with fish then shoot the fish in the barrel.

I simply don't understand this silly question of what need over function over so many complex questions could suddenly result in hate, its just a word I dont like. I can assure you, that until AI is here, it doesnt think and looking at my fingers as I type, I know many men who cannot.

********************ty is the man who owns the finger that lies in the sawdust and even worse, when his friends cant find it ?

Its been a long time but just an observation
jakep82

ur funny

but I am rarely wrong

said a wife

never

long live this thread

I have a beaver table saw, its so flippen old Im guessn theres at least a bit of dna stuck in it ? bin in the family for a bit, quite sure my dna is in too. Im not sure but i suspect the same tools are carving out new dna on my grnadsons. At the end of the day, if u want to practice my trade i would advise u buy the saw STOP

or you will

seriously

if yr hearts in it

see bad ********************


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

the poorest people in the world
have much to teach the fat bastard who sat in line at the mcdees
and his date didnt show up


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i mean
seriously ?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

a fkg table saw

cool heads

is where dreams come true


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

cats and saw stop


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

women love cats
sawstop
can save your marriage










its just one finger ?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

sorry

i dont own one

but I am pet friendly : )


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)




----------



## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

And that kids is why you should not drink and post on forums. I did not understand one thing you said…


----------



## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Amen.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

ditto children

go to bed


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

the dogged slope where wife and cat want your throat ?

dog vs cat

yr fingers are worth less ?

?

attached

movies r made of this ********************


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

*I thought I would NEVER add to a thread like this.* BUT.
We had saw stop saws in out college where I worked.
The kid cut his finger on another unisaw that we used as well. "Take the boy out of the bubble and they get sick"I believe the saw stop gave the students attitude that they were invincible, they were less careful.
We had to switch the "SAW STOP " technology OFF when cutting damp lumber. Why pay $2-3 k for something you have to switch off.
All the sately riving guards and guards are nice…..took them off when doing dados and some other cuts that we wanted to show.
MY POINT" you need to teach "safety" not just put in someones face and expect it to be hundred percent!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

forums r mostly made of war









smile


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

they found a recently thawed


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

what post card, nails a coffen shut

what memory keeps the casket open










bartering


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

safety yes ?


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

temperature controlled chess


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## TarHeelz (Sep 13, 2012)

I love my SawStop table saw. (It's solid, accurate, powerful, and easy to use.)

Interestingly, I don't care whether anyone else likes my table saw (or any other tools in my garage).

Odd that LJ cannot get worked up over different brands of oscillating sanders.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> I take the political thing with a grain of salt. What is more bizarre and almost disturbing to me is that so many people have been convinced that they need a table saw to be a woodworker or a carpenter in the first place. I m 41, been full time woodworking for the last 9 years, part time for 6 before that and spent at least the previous 12 years doing a lot of carpentry and renovations…. and I have not even touched a table saw (other than to move one out of my way) since I was in high school shop class. Panel saws? Hand-held circular saws? Sure, but a table saw? No and not even when I become too old to lift a full sheet or my belly no longer allows me to lean over the strips I m cutting off.
> 
> The only places, in my opinion, that actually need a table saw are shops that do 8, 16 or 24 hour long shifts of cabinetry runs and pay their employees union $s. Anyone not running a cabinetry business that buys any type of table saw is pretty obviously appeasing some kind of inner issue. If you need more than a bandsaw then a straight edge, some horses or tables and a hand-held circular saw are more than enough. And for those doing odd-ball relief cuts on table saws… really? Get over yourselves. It s as impressive as CNC milling something and then calling it a "carving". You re jerking your own chain and no one else s.
> 
> ...


Just when ya thought sawstop threads couldn't get any more inane….

BTW.
In my neck of the woods, 7 out of 10 vehicles are pickup trucks. Five would be crew cabs, probably 4 of em diesel's, and on a good day, only 1 or 2 of em have a set of truck nutz hanging from the hitch. Then theirs the bastards that drive dualies!
Betcha all the sonsabitches own a tablesaw also!

Then there's the bitch down the street that be all braggin about the new sewing machine she bought!! *!%[email protected]*%^

She ain't never heard of a thimble or WHAT!?


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## Mcnervy (Nov 25, 2009)

I have yet to hear my fellow woodworkers rant about how disgusted they are at the fact that the makers of every other table saw united to prevent this invention from getting to market, only to protect themselves from legacy lawsuits, and increase internal competition.

Most of the reasons people list for disliking Saw stops inventor, were actions he took after all major table saw companies colluded to prevent him licensing the technology to any of them.

If any of the major manufactures had put our safety as their top priority, Saw stop technology would be in that Brand. It is the greatest power tool safety improvement of all time! The power tool companies should have been fighting over licensing this technology not colluding to prevent it.

Their rational fear was that they had to put this on every saw they made. They knew this idea was so good it was not possible to legally justify not putting it on their cheaper models. They also knew that if one adopted the technology the other companies would be at risk.

What would you do if you had a million dollar, great, beneficial idea and all your potential buyers agreed to hold back this idea?

Would you have the strength perseverance and intensity of will to start a company which would have to compete with the very companies who held you back? I would not. Would you have a chip on your Shoulder after all this? I would.

it is very sad that this wonderful idea is the center of such controversy regardless of how you feel.
Thanks for Reading


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The others did not want to pay loyalties. Same reason the big tobacco companies destroyed the safe cigarette filter by locking it out of the market.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Didn't want to pay royalties AND when they came up with a simpler and better device, Gass modified his patents to be so broad that if they tried to implement it, he would sue and tie them up in the courts for years - something that the CPSC, TPI and Gass all admit in the transcripts. He is a patent lawyer after all. But this is a long debated and tired topic.. nothing to see here people, move along 

Cheers,
Brad


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I take the political thing with a grain of salt. What is more bizarre and almost disturbing to me is that so many people have been convinced that they need a table saw to be a woodworker or a carpenter in the first place. I m 41, been full time woodworking for the last 9 years, part time for 6 before that and spent at least the previous 12 years doing a lot of carpentry and renovations…. and I have not even touched a table saw (other than to move one out of my way) since I was in high school shop class. Panel saws? Hand-held circular saws? Sure, but a table saw? No and not even when I become too old to lift a full sheet or my belly no longer allows me to lean over the strips I m cutting off.
> 
> The only places, in my opinion, that actually need a table saw are shops that do 8, 16 or 24 hour long shifts of cabinetry runs and pay their employees union $s. Anyone not running a cabinetry business that buys any type of table saw is pretty obviously appeasing some kind of inner issue. If you need more than a bandsaw then a straight edge, some horses or tables and a hand-held circular saw are more than enough. And for those doing odd-ball relief cuts on table saws… really? Get over yourselves. It s as impressive as CNC milling something and then calling it a "carving". You re jerking your own chain and no one else s.
> 
> ...


Just some random thoughts

Some people just don't get it.

When was the last time you came out of the woods?

You should become president of the this country, you could use you executive powers to take away our table saws.

I too would like you to post some of your work.

Some of us don't have all day to lolly gag around the shop sharpening our panel saw instead of actually getting some done.

And, what the hell you doing wasting electricity on a computer when you could communicate with a couple tin cans and a string?

I hope your not wasting water by using one of those flush toilets. Toilet paper is also a waste of resources don't you think?

If you're married I hope you don't make you wife walk down to the river and beat your clothes on a rock.

Do you have a dish washer or hot water heater?

Is you time machine stuck in the early 19th century?

Have you ever been in a grocery store and bought that fancy packaged food?

I have plenty more random thoughts but my finger are getting tired.


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## Garbanzolasvegas (Jan 15, 2015)

DUDE! there are more GDAs (Government Disinformation Agents) SOCK PUPPETS on here that YOUTUBE!


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

Tonight I made my investment in a sawstop a good one. With a moment of inattentiveness, I almost took off the tip of my finger. Ten years of woodworking and every project is a TS project. Still have a nasty bleeding gash but I still have the entire finger.


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## TimberMagic (Mar 4, 2015)

> With that said I also would like to tell you why I want on. I spend about 5-20 hours a week in my shop, I don t do wood working for a living I am in IT and can not do my job if my hands are injured. Between missing work, recovery time and the medical bills I view sawstop as an insurance policy. I do not view it as justification to be less careful in the shop.
> 
> Discuss!
> 
> ...


No discussion needed. Ignore the haters and buy the saw to give yourself some comfort that the saw's technology gives you "1 more level of safety". The primary safety measures are for you to be smart in how you use the table saw regardless of it having any blade braking technology-using eye protection, hearing protection, using safety guards and push blocks, etc.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

to the idiot who put his faith to the tool

and thought saw-stop would keep his finger of his hand

has yet to meet the tool that wont listen


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

its too bad so many digits fall into the pitfall of dust

and I pity the person who thinks they can "stupid proof their life"

and sympathize with those those who try, condemned by those who dont : )


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## NicHartman (Apr 5, 2015)

From what I've read and from my experience, a SS saw would be good somewhere where you have cautious workers only. If you bump the side of the blade too hard while it's working, it will go off. There goes your $80 dollar blade (God forbid you have your dado stack in), and the refill cartridge you have to wait to get. I don't believe it should be in high school workshops, not at all. At my shop, we run an early 2000's Jet cabinet saw. No one touches the thing without the shop teacher there, ever. You always use a push stick. However, he doesn't run either a riving knife or a blade guard, something that surprised me personally when I first walked in. I'm getting a bit off topic, but what I'm trying to say is that the SS saws are only worth it in a place that you have no worry of money and don't take many risks. Otherwise, you're gonna be spendin a loooooot of blade and cartridge money.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

conviction

builds bridges

before they blow them up


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

until you loose a finger into the abyss of dust

you shouldn't judge


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

the obvious finger in the dust makes a sudden appearance

that is rarely explained unless its yours

Long Live Saw Stop


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

I want 1/2 hot dog, while I am watching the embedded troll, and girly man parade!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I'd buy one of I could afford it. Don't like the owners tactics. Until I can afford it, this old '74 Rockwell will have to do.


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## LoganBC (Jul 16, 2011)

Its only one less way to get hurt in your shop. If you aren't being safe then sooner or later the miter saw or the band saw or router table or hammer will bite you.

However, innovation and product competition is a good thing. Buy what you like. I hadn't heard about the political side before reading this post.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

I was using a pushstick with my right hand but guiding with my left. I went back down this morning and based on the piece, still don't know how my finger got that close. Should have had room to spare and it definitely didn't slip. Moot point now. Got Grippers for a reason so use it ya dummy.


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## pneufab (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't usually reply to these threads but I did want to comment on something.

There were a few comments on changing the blade distance from the cartridge and what a hassle it is. I thought it would be too, but eventually I found a sweet spot where I never move the cartridge anymore.

I can change between any 10" blade I have and the dado stack and cartridge and not have to touch the yellow allen bolt to move anything. It has been like that for about a year.

Once that was adjusted, it is only a few more seconds to change from a dado stack to a regular blade over my old saw. I just have to add the time to change the cartridge.

Go for the "Sweet spot"


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I have been injured a few times in the shop. I've cut myself with chisels, knifes and various other ways, too. As a newbie I severed the side of my left thumb reaching in. The details are blurry, but clearly I didn't know what I was doing. I got the saw and just started using it. Anything I learned in shop class in HS was in the ozone.

I have been hit with kickbacks 3 times, but nothing severe. Again, an error on my part, but as the posters said, not something a SS would prevent.

I was going to buy a TS today, I probably would consider the SS, but I can't help but wonder why Powermatic, Delta and Jet aren't already on the bandwagon if this is such a great thing.

I can appreciate the technology, so I am no a SS "hater", I just don't think the average hobbyist needs one IF-and that's a big IF-they have had some kind of instruction or studied safety procedures. I view them as more for OSHA regulated businesses and schools. I have a friend who works in a cabinet shop and they have 3 TS's one is a SS. They have to keep at least 2 cartridges on the shelf because for various reasons the brake will go off. I think its got something to do with a type of material they saw or an aluminum fence. Anyway, he said they got it a couple years ago and goes off at least 2-3 X a year. Never once has it been for flesh touching the blade. They hate the saw for the downtime it causes and some of the guys won't even use it because they don't want to be the one on it when it goes bang.

Personally, I think it all boils down to guys who want to get into ww'ing with little to no knowledge of either how to use the saw properly or use it safely. There was a thread here on "kickback" and it was painfully obvious the guy was severely misinformed about his TS.

I've got a question for you all. I haven't bought a TS in over 15 yrs and I'm curious do any of them include an instructional video on proper used and safety precautions? I know the first 2 pages of the manual are full of disclaimers.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I would think that someone with as many injuries and kick backs might be good to consider a Sawstop.

I have been woodworking for more than 40 years and have had no major kickbacks or injuries on any tool. I bought a Sawstop because it was an added safety feature and it is as good a cabinet saw as any made. No I did not get a Sawstop because I am new at woodworking.

Have I read the safety stuff …..yes. do I keep the guards on it most of the time and take them off only when needed.

The great thing about the Sawstop is that you are not forced to buy one and there are a lot of choices. Buy one if you want…Buy something else if you want.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

There are always those who think safety technology is unnecessary. Seat belts and airbags are still oft decried with arguments like 'i've driven for xx years and never had an accident.' or 'I pay good attention and avoid the other bad drivers.' Yet everyone who has had some kind of accident had a first one they weren't expecting, and no one has purposefully decided not to avoid the other driver (they just never saw him or had no choice). People decry insurance - 'my house will never flood/burn down/be hit by a tornado'. They laugh at others who pay for it, at least until they face a major loss themselves. Motorcycle helmets, knee and elbow pads, smoking in bed…the list goes on.

The human mind has a difficult time with risk. The mind is built to identify and work off of patterns. Therefore if you have been doing something and never gotten hurt, your brain subconsciously decides you are unlikely to get hurt doing that thing in the future. If you get hurt all the time doing something (or even get hurt bady one time. Think of the pitcher who threw millions of pitches, but then got hit in the face by a batted ball one time, and becomes too afraid to pitch ever again), your subconscious becomes afraid it will happen again.

Same with this stuff. Good technique will go a long way to avoiding accidents. But the human condition is such that eventually inattentiveness, failure to anticipate a problem, or something will happen and cause an accident. Industry knows this well as they study safety incidents intently (at least good industries do). Craftsmen of all types, with lots of experience, who care about their work, who pay attention, still have accidents at some rate. Though the rate may be lower than those less experienced or those who don't pay attention, a rate still exists.

No one needs a saw stop. But it is not a bad idea to have them. The technology seems quite reliable. False hits are few if people test the material ahead of time. Spare parts can be kept on hand. If you want the extra layer of protection and can afford it, go for it. If not, then don't. Its all about your individual risk evaluation.

-Brian


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

*There were a few comments on changing the blade distance from the cartridge and what a hassle it is. I thought it would be too, but eventually I found a sweet spot where I never move the cartridge anymore.*

Exactly…

The the cases where this doesn't work, there's a simple solution.

Dedicating a few bucks worth of Harbor Freight tools, such as a T handle hex, or a cheap socket hex / extension / short breaker or ratchet makes this a ridiculously easy thing to do. Count the turns in or out you've moved, put them back when the main blade goes back on.

You can even pretend you're giving a stock car a wedge adjustment, if that floats your boat. ;^)


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

To me this all comes down with my pure, unadulterated disdain of government and anyone who tries to have their wares mandated by the government and then the industry regulated by the government. IF that is what SS is doing then screw them. If not then the market will decide. For me i dont want a machine to try to think for me. I like the idea of watching what i am doing and being careful. May I undigit myself one day?-sure, I may and then I will pick my nose with my other hand.

A smart machine will make the operator lax. You may disagree with me. I dont care. That is your prerogative. But i would really hate to see someone get too comfortable with a saw and that the be THE saw that got through quality when it should have been held back.

Guns have safetys and so do saws. But the reducto ad absurdum here, to me, is the concept gun that wont shoot when aimed at the "wrong" person. The shooter should know who the wrong person is. And what if the "wrong" person is actually the right person?
I digress.


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## nkawtg (Dec 22, 2014)

1. The saw is WAY overpriced! Who wants to pay 1400 bucks for a portable jobsite saw?
2. Stephen Gass's lobbying efforts to mandate SawStop technology in California (Stephen Gass is both the the inventor and a patent attorney).


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

A couple of things …

1) Some say the Sawstop could make the user more careless. In my case, that is baloney. If anything, it has made me more safety conscious … I know if I screw up it could cost me a brake and probably a blade. I am more careful now than I ever was with my old Jet saw.

2) The idea that it wastes a lot of time changing blades/brakes is nonsense. I can swap out the brake cartridge and mount a dado stack in about two minutes.

3) Just an observation … it looks to me like most the people who have a problem with a Sawstop have never used one. In a lot of cases, I suspect they have never even laid eyes on one.

4) I understand that a lot of people disapprove of Steve Gass and his efforts to get a federal mandate for his product. I really don't like that either, but I also don't approve of the human rights violations and squalid conditions in places where a lot of the tools and equipment we buy so cheap are made.

I am with Redoak49:


> The great thing about the Sawstop is that you are not forced to buy one and there are a lot of choices. Buy one if you want…Buy something else if you want.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I would think that someone with as many injuries and kick backs might be good to consider a Sawstop.
> - Redoak49


1. Sawstops do one thing: prevent you from getting cut by a spinning blade.

2. They don't stop kickbacks or any injuries related to them. I submit more guys get hurt by kickbacks by far than putting there hand in the blade.

3. 25 years ago there was no such thing as a Sawstop. Part of that incident was me using a crappy saw.

4. That's all it took to teach me a lesson. I have a healthy respect for my saw and I am constantly aware of safety when using it.

5. You're right-if you think you need one get one, if you don't don't.

The misconception is thinking you can't get hurt with a SS, which is simply not true.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> Dedicating a few bucks worth of Harbor Freight tools, such as a T-handle hex …


My Sawstop came supplied with the correct T-handled hex wrench and a magnetic holder … it is right where I need it should the need arise. I check the gap periodically but in almost three years with my saw, I have only had to make an adjustment once and that was when I switched out the stock blade Sawstop provided for one of my Freud blades. No adjustment has ever been required when I switch out a 10" blade/brake for the 8" dado stack and brake.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

I have never used meth but i think i ll pass. One doesnt have to be a full user to form an opinion based on the companies claims, actions etc.

If I say I have a pill that will make you grow hair but you have plenty and dont want any more then you dont need to use it to form the opinion that it isnt for you.



> A couple of things …
> 
> 1) Some say the Sawstop could make the user more careless. In my case, that is baloney. If anything, it has made me more safety conscious … I know if I screw up it could cost me a brake and probably a blade. I am more careful now than I ever was with my old Jet saw.
> 
> ...


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I would think that someone with as many injuries and kick backs might be good to consider a Sawstop.
> - Redoak49


Really?

With all due respect, 40 years of woodworking and not one "major" kickback? 
Maybe you should qualify what "major" means.

1. Sawstops do one thing: prevent you from getting cut by a spinning blade.

2. They don t stop kickbacks or any injuries related to them. I submit more guys get hurt by kickbacks by far than putting there hand in the blade.

3. 25 years ago there was no such thing as a Sawstop. Part of that incident was me using a crappy saw.

4. That s all it took to teach me a lesson. I have a healthy respect for my saw and I am constantly aware of safety when using it.

5. You re right-if you think you need one get one, if you don t don t.

The misconception is thinking you can t get hurt with a SS, which is simply not true.

- Robert Engel
[/QUOTE]


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

Even though I'm an owner of one, I don't approve of his push to get all saws so equipped. At the time I bought mine, Delta was practically OOB, several retailers such as Woodcraft had dropped them. They have since had a resurgence but there was a certain wariness about recommending them. I paid $3000 for mine with the mobile base. The Unisaw is $2500 without a base, so figure $2700 or so apples to apples. It is a well built saw that I paid a 10% premium on to get the safety brake.

My old saw had no riving knife so I had plenty of kickback issues. This saw has a riving knife so I have not had any kickbacks. I have had problems with boards getting jammed between the fence and the knife when that tension gets released.

Make no mistake, this was entirely my doing. I did what I did 1000 times before and based on the pieces I was cutting I still don't see how my finger got that close. I did get cut bad. I got a fairly significant slice that hurts like hell. The difference is it only went halfway through instead of removing the tip of my finger.

You can get hurt anywhere but the TS still holds the honor of the greatest number of significant injuries in the shop. I am willing to bet 95% of those people would start the story with…." I was being careful…"


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Just for clarity, I have never been hit by a kick back nor had one fly out of the saw at me. I have had some small pieces come out. Call me lucky….

I have used s Shopsmith, older Craftsman contractor style, Jet cabinet saw and a Sawstop PCS.

I think that the Sawstop and a couple of the other newer saws have very good blade guards and I use mine as much h as possible. I believe the guards and riving knives do a great deal to prevent kick backs. Again, people can do as they please and either use guards and riving knives or not.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

*My Sawstop came supplied with the correct T-handled hex wrench and a magnetic holder … it is right where I need it should the need arise. I check the gap periodically but in almost three years with my saw, I have only had to make an adjustment once and that was when I switched out the stock blade Sawstop provided for one of my Freud blades. No adjustment has ever been required when I switch out a 10" blade/brake for the 8" dado stack and brake.*

Not all of them included that tool… Most of the ICS examples I've used, including mine, only included a standard "L" hex key. If the current shipments include a better tool, that's great!

Blades that have been resharpened a few times are the only ones that need an adjustment. I don't normally need to touch mine if I'm using blades that still have the factory grind.

I have a blade that's ground with the points all on one side, for dovetail tails, and I use a 1/16" kerf 7 1/4" circular saw blade to slice shop-made banding packs. Both of those require a good 4+ full turns.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The L shaped wrench is a little difficult to use with a blade in the saw.

I went to HF and got a cheap ratchet wrench, extension and hex socket set. This works good for me but Sawstop could have provided something better.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> The L shaped wrench is a little difficult to use with a blade in the saw.
> 
> I went to HF and got a cheap ratchet wrench, extension and hex socket set. This works good for me but Sawstop could have provided something better.
> 
> - Redoak49


I' use my L shaped one on the ICS and use a rare earth magnet to hold it on the end of the table, and can grab it in a sec. Don't see what the problem is with the hex, and I adjust the gap quick and easy and slap it back on the side of the saw. I'll give you a hint though, since I only have to adjust rarely, When adjusted, I put a sharpie line on the bolt so I can quickly align. No more measuring the gap.


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## TarHeelz (Sep 13, 2012)

My SawStop is an extremely high performing table saw with excellent fit, finish, and precision. Further, the company's customer service is unsurpassed in my experience.

My SawStop includes all the modern table saw safety devices found on other machines. It also includes a flesh detecting technology that that no other manufacturer has yet equaled (but they are getting there).

There are a grand total of zero governmental restrictions/regulations imposed upon any woodworker in America created by SawStop or its founder.

This is my table saw. There are many like it, but this one is mine.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

Up for grabs is the other half hot dog, in the troll parade! "There are a grand total of zero governmental restrictions/regulations imposed upon any woodworker in America created by SawStop or its founder" Because the Ahole failed.

It goes much deeper then this. http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/329572/Antitrust+Competition/SawStop+Dismissal+Explained+Opinion+Crosscutting+SawStops+Antitrust+Lawsuit+Released


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

This.

Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.

It could be the best and most solid saw on the market and sold for a crisp Benjamin but this weaseling the state makes me sick. SS is scorched earth to me.

I ll take a old PM or Unisaw any day as long as they dont do the same governmental nonsense.



> Up for grabs is the other half hot dog, in the troll parade! "There are a grand total of zero governmental restrictions/regulations imposed upon any woodworker in America created by SawStop or its founder" Because the Ahole failed.
> 
> - unbob


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

The actual complaint.
http://www.consumerproductmatters.com/files/2014/06/SawStop-v.-Black-Decker-et-al-COMPLAINT-E.D.-Va.1.pdf

Anyone notice that this company does not advertise on woodworking websites? Why bother when any site can be flooded with trolls?
Not a hater, just an observer.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> This.
> 
> Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.
> 
> ...


Is Harley Davidson dead to you?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

lets sue all the other companies so we can create a monopoly until the patent runs outs.

Like the saw, hate the guy.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Is Harley Davidson dead to you?












Granny likes 'em… but I wouldn't buy one (I got a Triumph).

Not sure what you are trying to imply though…

Cheers,
Brad


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

Shucks, I have a 55 K model Harley…...........
Now come on lets get real, comments like " SS Forever" and "SS never took any action toward woodworkers" is just not true, and over the top.
Any one buying any saw at the usual stores, is going to pay at least $200 more for the brake, if they want it or not-If! they had their way in court.
Many people just don't have the money, pricing them out. They ugly reality is, SS would get a piece of every saw then sold in the US….............................................................................................................................. I have looked at the SS at a woodcraft store a few time, even running and cutting once. It appears to be a good saw. I happen to like my saw because of the larger table, and the ability to run any hole size blades from 6" to around 15"-shaping heads. I cant recommend my saw because, it requires close attention to detail or one will get hurt. My view is only this. The SS is probably a really good thing for many. Some just don't like things forced on them-like seat belts on motorcycles…..no kidding it was tried in Cali.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Is Harley Davidson dead to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,714764,714771

Seems HD begged for and got a 45% sliding tariff on bikes that competed with them. It decreased to 10% after 5 years. HD used the state to regulate something instead of letting the market decide. Anyone that wanted a large oil tight motorcycle had to pay a huge premium.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Shucks, I have a 55 K model Harley…...........
> Now come on lets get real, comments like " SS Forever" and "SS never took any action toward woodworkers" is just not true, and over the top.
> Any one buying any saw at the usual stores, is going to pay at least $200 more for the brake, if they want it or not-If! they had their way in court.
> Many people just don t have the money, pricing them out. They ugly reality is, SS would get a piece of every saw then sold in the US….............................................................................................................................. I have looked at the SS at a woodcraft store a few time, even running and cutting once. It appears to be a good saw. I happen to like my saw because of the larger table, and the ability to run any hole size blades from 6" to around 15"-shaping heads. I cant recommend my saw because, it requires close attention to detail or one will get hurt. My view is only this. The SS is probably a really good thing for many. Some just don t like things forced on them-like seat belts on motorcycles…..no kidding it was tried in Cali.
> ...


http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?16,714764,714771
People had to pay a 45% tariff on large displacement motorcycles that didn't leak oil. That was a lot more than $200/saw. More like thousands of dollars per bike.

I'm just curious if the people decrying sawstop, will also decry HD. I'm gonna guess not.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*People had to pay a 45% tariff on large displacement motorcycles that didn't leak oil*

Or just buy American made goods and avoid it (not to mention that many foreign governments subsidized their domestic companies to make up for the tariffs, removing that additional cost to US buyers)... there are thousands of tariffs on imported goods - Cars, motorcycles, auto parts and other manufactured goods, electronics, fruits and vegetables, apparel and textiles, livestock and poultry, ....

And pretty much every one was asked for by the US supplier of those goods, either by petition or lobbying. Import tariffs are way different though than trying to impose a single supplier technology on an industry through regulation.

*I'm just curious if the people decrying sawstop, will also decry HD. I'm gonna guess not.*

Apples and oranges.

Cheers,
Brad


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

This isn't a bike riders site. It's a woodworking site. The dude could make a boatload of cash if A brake ever becomes a requirement. If he's all about safety then why doesn't he offer the technology cheaply? Or drop the lawsuit against Bosch and their technology? Money money money.

And you can't tell me it really costs 1500$ for a job site saw. I just wonder how much their price will drop when the patent expires?


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

Of course its about money. You invent something, you try and get rich selling it. In other countries, you invent something, the government owns it and they get rich off of it. Maybe one is better than the other.

What this really is is proof of the catch flies with honey adage. There are countless products out there where i think "if this were $25, I'd have 3. If it was $30 I'd have two. But it's $50 and I won't pay that." If he had gone in with more reasonable licensing arrangements, he'd have fewer dollars per saw times many more saws. But instead we have what we have.

The PCS saws seem reasonably priced based on what other saws people compare them to here. Maybe a couple hundred extra for the brake system. That price works on $2000 saws, but not on $200 saws.

Various people in various industries are going around to the various government bodies trying to get them to mandate their product, or by defacto create a market for their specialty services. Everyday. This is just an example that hits us close to home.

-Brian


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *People had to pay a 45% tariff on large displacement motorcycles that didn't leak oil*
> 
> Or just buy American made goods and avoid it (not to mention that many foreign governments subsidized their domestic companies to make up for the tariffs, removing that additional cost to US buyers)... there are thousands of tariffs on imported goods - Cars, motorcycles, auto parts and other manufactured goods, electronics, fruits and vegetables, apparel and textiles, livestock and poultry, ....
> 
> ...


Nope, same thing. Someone went to the state to influence the market. I believe the tariffs pushed the price of larger bikes quite high, as intended.

This is exactly the situation he said caused a company to be dead to him.

I see a lack of consistency here.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> This isn t a bike riders site. It s a woodworking site. The dude could make a boatload of cash if A brake ever becomes a requirement. If he s all about safety then why doesn t he offer the technology cheaply? Or drop the lawsuit against Bosch and their technology? Money money money.
> 
> And you can t tell me it really costs 1500$ for a job site saw. I just wonder how much their price will drop when the patent expires?
> 
> - TheFridge


True, but I'm trying to show:
Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.

Probably isn't true at all. Since as Mr. Unix showed a successful market change can be easily justified…if you favor the company. So HD getting uncompetitive protection is ok, but sawstop just by asking for rule changes isn't ok. Not much consistency.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*Nope, same thing.*

Yeah, maybe to you… but getting import tariffs isn't the same thing other than there is a government body in play.

To be closer to the same, it would be more akin to HD trying to get government regulations forcing all motorcycle companies to use their patented technology if they wanted to sell in the US, and threatening legal actions if anyone tried to come up with something similar so they wouldn't have to pay their royalties. With import tariffs, you can still get alternatives to HD without their technology, with regulations forcing the technology on all manufacturers, you couldn't.

We get it… you are a SS cheerleader.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Brian89 (Apr 12, 2015)

I think if your careful with your saw but want the added safety feature why not buy it. Speaking with a guy at a local woodcraft, he triggered the safety feature twice in 18 months but still recommended the saw. I did get the feeling they were overselling the brand and wonder if they get commissions on certain sales


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Of course its about money. You invent something, you try and get rich selling it. *In other countries, you invent something, the government owns it and they get rich off of it. *Maybe one is better than the other.
> 
> -Brian
> - bbasiaga


Generally, the company or group that pays for the research/development owns the patent. In which countries does (other than China) the government take patents?

I'm very much confused by this statement.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *Nope, same thing.*
> 
> Yeah, maybe to you… but getting import tariffs isn t the same thing other than there is a government body in play.
> 
> ...


*Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.*

In this case they are the same. Perhaps the poster meant it differently. You are proving my point that if you favor the company it is ok.

I'm not a cheerleader and I'm not even discussing sawstop, just the blanket condemnation for a company based on what they tried to do when other companies have sought and been granted much larger anti-competitive assistance.

P.S. I do have one and like it and the way the company treats me as a customer. So you can discount my point as being a fanboy, but that really isn't the motivation for my post.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

Now you are on my turf being I am a former Harley Davidson dealer!
This is how it was, some Japanese companies were in fact dumping motorcycles in the US at less then the cost of manufacturing them….Yamaha 650s for one, hurting sales of the HD XL model line.
Harley Davidson filed suit, the US Gov found it was true, and placed a tariff on them.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Well I'm gonna invent a shoe liner that prevents you from twisting your ankle. Then try to charge Nike and all the other shoe manufacturers to use this patent, so that their shoes will cost more than the shoe line I came out with.

Then sue and bitch about all the other shoe manufacturers "not caring about the safety of the shoe wearing public."

Ring a bell?

People like the technology but hate the owner and his tactics.

If he made 50$ off every new saw that used his patent he could still make a killing off of volume and make it safer for the entry level hobbyists who want to start woodworking or piddling around the house and anybody else who wants to buy a different brand with the same technology. If he was really concerned about safety he'd make it as cheap as he can. But he's not. It's an overreaching money grab. Which is fine. But don't feed us this crap about none of the other manufacturers care about "safety". Why would I want to make what is essentially the same saw but have to charge more than they do for the end product?


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## Lasivian (Apr 12, 2015)

At the Wood Technology Center in Seattle we have 18 of them. The only real issue to speak of is that the blade lifting locks keep getting damaged because students do not loosen the lock first and just try to force the wheel. We have started just removing the locks from all the saws except the dedicated dado saws.

We have about one "event" per quarter and just budget for extra cartridges and blades.

Sawstop has always been spot on with their support and replacement parts (However that might be because we have so many of the things)

I have to say showing off a blade with an attached (fired) cartridge to parents of prospective students going on the school tour always impresses them.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> If he made 50$ off every new saw that used his patent …


Does anybody know what kind of royalty or license fee was asking for? Just asking …


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Now you are on my turf being I am a former Harley Davidson dealer!
> This is how it was, some Japanese companies were in fact dumping motorcycles in the US at less then the cost of manufacturing them….Yamaha 650s for one, hurting sales of the HD XL model line.
> Harley Davidson filed suit, the US Gov found it was true, and placed a tariff on them.
> 
> - unbob


That may be true, but what of the larger bikes like the gold wing? The tariff as I remember was *Any* bike over 800cc. Do you believe all imported bikes over 800cc were sold at a loss in 1982 or did HD need protecting?

And really it doesn't matter if it is justified or not. Just that they did it.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

No, but I'd like to know also. I just threw 50$ out there.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Well I m gonna invent a shoe liner that prevents you from twisting your ankle. Then try to charge Nike and all the other shoe manufacturers to use this patent, so that their shoes will cost more than the shoe line I came out with.
> 
> Then sue and bitch about all the other shoe manufacturers "not caring about the safety of the shoe wearing public."
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't ring a bell. A twisted ankle is not even close to what a table saw accident can do. Come up with something as permanent and disfiguring.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*And really it doesn't matter if it is justified or not. Just that they did it.*

Wow… is your world view really that monochromatic?

*A twisted ankle is not even close to what a table saw accident can do.*

Hmmm… that would seem counter to your 'doesen't matter why' statement above. Apparently your monochromatic view is very selective 

Cheers,
Brad


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

The Harley thing was what it was back then.
The SS thing is what it is now.
In these days of zero personal responsibility, you are presented the hot dog saw. For your own good!
Want some real sport-try an industrial grade shaper.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I believe it's called an analogy. Not just anal.

Edit: the name of the post is "why do you hate sawstop?"

So far, the vast majority don't feel they need it -or- they don't like the tactics of the owner (which is all well documented)

Most of what I've seen has absolutely nothing to do with the fact they hate the blade brake, it's the fact that the owner is a douche. Again, well documented. We may not know all the facts but when the question of "why do you hate sawstop" is asked, the political side of it comes up more than people not liking the tech.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> We may not know all the facts but when the question of "why do you hate sawstop" is asked, the political side of it comes up more than people not liking the tech.


Hmmm … maybe the original post should be 'Who do you hate … Sawstop (the company) or Sawstop (the saw)?'


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

> Well I m gonna invent a shoe liner that prevents you from twisting your ankle. Then try to charge Nike and all the other shoe manufacturers to use this patent, so that their shoes will cost more than the shoe line I came out with.
> 
> Then sue and bitch about all the other shoe manufacturers "not caring about the safety of the shoe wearing public."
> 
> ...


I agree with that.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The story about Gass and Sawstop is given in Wikipedia. The facts there are backed up with actual references.

Gass tried to sell the technology initially to other mfg for 3% of the wholesale price of a saw. The other mfg formed the PTI (Power Tool Institute). The other mfg wanted Gass to assume any liability for the saws that the other mfg built. Anyway, Gass could not sell the technology so started building his own saws. What followed was a back and forth between the might of multiple large corporations making equipment and Gass.

As is clear on this thread is that many think Gass is an evil person. However, there is blame to go around as the PTI did everything possible to prevent the technology from being available as they feared the kind of lawsuit for not using the best technology.

The entire story and the "hate Sawstop" movement would make a great movie.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Starts at 3% up to 8% percent if he has his way or it's widely accepted.

They should be able to sell their saws for less than 25% of a cost increase he says. A 20% increase in cost puts the unisaw 50$ more per Amazon.

The very first article in the reference section is a bunch of he said she said crap. It could go either way. Go ahead. Believe a lawyer 100%.

"There may be other systems that could be used to satisfy the proposed standard." Like bosch's? Who is getting sued by sawstop?

Does the PTI have any blame to take? Yep. In my eyes it's simple economics. Why build a saw with the same quality and specs if yours could potentially cost the same or a lot more? I

This whole "champion of safety" is crap and we all know it. Some will buy it and some won't.

Maybe you need protection from yourself. I don't. But if I had the money I'd buy it. If they were equal and a unisaw cost the same as a sawstop id go unisaw all day just because of the owner.

In the end, the market needs to determine what the market wants. He's trying to use his patent for all its worth. Good for him. Doesn't mean everybody has to like it.


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## TarHeelz (Sep 13, 2012)

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies that license mandatory safety devices to other companies, we are going to find ourselves with a smaller selection of cars to buy.

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies run by profit-hungry CEOs, we are going to be holding an empty basket at the checkout line.

SawStop's biggest mistake was picking a fight against far bigger companies before it was even large enough to have a decent Public Relations department.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *And really it doesn't matter if it is justified or not. Just that they did it.*
> 
> Wow… is your world view really that monochromatic?
> 
> ...


I think you are confused. I'm pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.

Find an analogy that matches a table saw accident?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> The Harley thing was what it was back then.
> The SS thing is what it is now.
> In these days of zero personal responsibility, you are presented the hot dog saw. For your own good!
> Want some real sport-try an industrial grade shaper.
> ...


So time is the determinant?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I believe it s called an analogy. Not just anal.
> 
> Edit: the name of the post is "why do you hate sawstop?"
> 
> ...


I don't see that the majority don't want it, not even the majority of posters don't want it. We have to count posters not posts, because some of us have dozens of posts, but just one opinion.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> In the end, the market needs to determine what the market wants. He s trying to use his patent for all its worth. Good for him. Doesn t mean everybody has to like it.
> - TheFridge


Isn't that exactly what happened? The market determined that it is a great saw and the safest you can buy.

You guys are crying over something that was proposed.

If he has a patent and can defend it what is the problem with that?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies that license mandatory safety devices to other companies, we are going to find ourselves with a smaller selection of cars to buy.
> 
> If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies run by profit-hungry CEOs, we are going to be holding an empty basket at the checkout line.
> 
> ...


They seem to be doing ok on their own. And really, it is a better product.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

You really are the bubbly cheerleader aren't you? Well I guess I'm gonna go ahead and drink the koolaid since every one else that buys a new table saw is wrong and shouldn't be entitled to an opinion.

What was the name of this topic again?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I think you are confused. I m pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.


No doubt, companies do it all the time. But you seem to be saying that the motivation behind those actions are meaningless. Taking action to prevent harm or offset unfair practices is much different than taking action for personal gain. Are you seriously claiming otherwise?



> Find an analogy that matches a table saw accident?


Why… the one TheFridge gave is perfectly adequate as was the HD one before it. The severity of the possible result is irrelevant to the point.

Cheers,
Brad


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

Show me your SawStop Tattoo!.....
The SS legal action was thrown out as baseless. That is a fact. There are thousands of products that are dangerous. If worried about them, don't use them.

I did discover that many years ago Japanese industrial grade woodworking machines were somehow shut out of the US market. All I know is there are almost none in the US, but can be found in odd places like South Africa.
I ended up with one that was out of a Boeing casting pattern shop.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I think you are confused. I m pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.
> 
> No doubt, companies do it all the time. But you seem to be saying that the motivation behind those actions are meaningless. Taking action to prevent harm or offset unfair practices is much different than taking action for personal gain. Are you seriously claiming otherwise?
> 
> ...


Not at all, motivation is important, but not for this point:

*Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.*

I don't really care what you guys think about sawstop or HD, just think you should be consistent. I selected the HD example specifically for its iconic value. Almost any successful lobbying would have served. I guess banks are dead cars are dead. Step Back from the love of HD or your hatred of sawstop and you may see.

The "analogies" supplied are in the same category as "life is like a box of chocolates"!


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> You really are the bubbly cheerleader aren t you? Well I guess I m gonna go ahead and drink the koolaid since every one else that buys a new table saw is wrong and shouldn t be entitled to an opinion.
> 
> What was the name of this topic again?
> 
> - TheFridge


Wow! Asking for consistency is cheerleading?


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> We may not know all the facts but when the question of "why do you hate sawstop" is asked, the political side of it comes up more than people not liking the tech.
> 
> - TheFridge


Fridge, I have long been convinced that the political opinions of many (if not most) people are based on their like or dislike of the proponents and opponents of those opinions.

Replace Gass, in this case, with a disabled vet, for example, and a lot of the noise goes away. Or keep Gass in the picture but make him, instead of a lawyer, a former Chrysler union steward, and a lot of the noise goes away.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'd like to address the OP. No. I do not "hate" SawStop, but I don't "like" them either.

I wouldn't spend the extra money on one, because my fingers don't come anywhere near a spinning blade when I use my saw. I think its like HD or Apple computers - its a brand affiliation people make and since they've got more money in it then other brands, they get their hackles up when someone "downs" their product.

Personality/business tactic issues aside, shouldn't the facts come into play somewhere?
Instead of getting emotional, lets be logical.

a. Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww'ers?
I'm sure the hospital ER's keep track of such things. I need to look into it.

b. If 10,000 saws need to be sold to save one careless guys finger, then they have to market the technology based on fear because the ONLY injury it can prevent is flesh touching the blade.

I think the real problem is here are tons of guys with ww'ing machinery and little to no experience that:

a. do not use them on a regular basis.
b. have NEVER watch a video or read anything about safety procedures.
c. try to do things with their machines the are not designed to do.
d. view ww'ing more as recreation than a craft.

For me, the bottom line is the machine manufacturers need to be more responsible in the safety area.
Yeah, theres a couple pages in the front of the manual on safety (and, of course, the disclaimers) but WHO READS THEM? Is it because we don't read directions anyway, or because we have a Y chromosome our brains are wired to run equipment safely??

I all boils down to personal choice, but like a lot of other issues, I don't want something jammed down my throat by the government or anyone else.


----------



## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Does harley get/ got u.s. bailouts or try to mandate something they make to be had on all bikes? if so then yes-scorched earth. Just like GM, Ford and Dodge.



> This.
> 
> Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww'ers?
> I'm sure the hospital ER s keep track of such things. I need to look into it.


Know anyone who works in a hospital ER? My wife was a medical transcriptionist, and had countless notes dictated by ER doctors concerning severed digits and other table saw injuries. Though it is true there are many injuries resulting from kickbacks, the most severe (and most expensive) are from flesh-to-blade contact. Some estimates place the number of severed digits at around -thousand per year in the U.S. The last estimate I saw placed the average cost of medical care after such an accident at about $95-thousand dollars.

Table saw accidents can happen to the best of us.

I'm sure folks on this forum are familiar with Charles Neil. If you are not, Charles is one of the country's premiere woodworking artisans … he has been working in the craft for about 40 years. Pull up some of Charles' Youtube videos and check out his left hand.

Woodturners probably know Sam Angelo, the Wyoming Woodturner. Sam had an accident a few months ago that cost him a couple of finger tips on his left hand.

The stats and anecdotal evidence are out there.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Yes, de-digiting does happen. But should I not be free to be allowed to choose to use this tech?
My problem is regulating the market. If it is only advertising "Hey, we'll save digits is you buy our saw". Thats great. If it is trying to have the market regulated then screw them. I dont necessarily hate the product, I hate the attempt at regulation. The principal is enough to keep me from buying them.



> Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww ers?
> I m sure the hospital ER s keep track of such things. I need to look into it.
> 
> Know anyone who works in a hospital ER? My wife was a medical transcriptionist, and had countless notes dictated by ER doctors concerning severed digits and other table saw injuries. Though it is true there are many injuries resulting from kickbacks, the most severe (and most expensive) are from flesh-to-blade contact. Some estimates place the number of severed digits at around -thousand per year in the U.S. The last estimate I saw placed the average cost of medical care after such an accident at about $95-thousand dollars.
> ...


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.

It's the individuals choice. How it should be.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

The statistics are about 4000 amputations per year from table saw accidents.

Two thirds of table saw accidents happen with the blade guard removed.

Yes, the Sawstop would reduce amputations.

However, if these mfg would design stop bitching about Sawstop and design a good blade guard that people would be less inclined to remove, there would be a huge decrease in injuries.

Sometimes, the simple solution of a better guard is overlooked.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Not at all, motivation is important, but not for this point:
> 
> *Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.*
> 
> I don t really care what you guys think about sawstop or HD, just think you should be consistent. I selected the HD example specifically for its iconic value. Almost any successful lobbying would have served. I guess banks are dead cars are dead. Step Back from the love of HD or your hatred of sawstop and you may see.


Ok, I get it now… and you are correct, I was confused - because you inappropriately have taken the pedantic interpretation of a single line of one post and proceeded to apply it in a blanket fashion (ie: "You Guys" in the above statement) to anyone who disagreed. And while it was fairly disingenuous of you to do so, I should have realized it sooner, so that was my mistake.

Just so you know, I do not love HD, and SS is not dead to me. There are some valid reasons to by a SS… however, there are some valid reasons not to buy one as well - and for me, the owners actions are way down towards the bottom of that list.

Cheers,
Brad


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Does harley get/ got u.s. bailouts or try to mandate something they make to be had on all bikes? if so then yes-scorched earth. Just like GM, Ford and Dodge.
> 
> This.
> 
> ...


Ford got a bailout? When? I think you have unfairly grouped them in with the 2 that did get bailouts.

A bailout is money to save a company, Tariffs are to save a company or industry. Both took/take money out of our pockets (one is somewhat voluntary) HD and banks should be dead to you.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Ok, I get it now… and you are correct, I was confused - because you inappropriately have taken the *pedantic interpretation of a single line of one post and proceeded to apply it in a blanket fashion* (ie: "You Guys" in the above statement) to anyone who disagreed. And while it was fairly disingenuous of you to do so, I should have realized it sooner, so that was my mistake.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


I accept your apology and reject your insult.

The statement was a very broad condemnation that I felt was short sighted and most likely not true.

Now you are insulting me as pedantic and calling me a liar. Thanks for raising the bar against people that disagree with you.

Just for the record, I said I don't care what you feel about Sawstop of HD and I don't. I never applied/questioned the disputed line to anyone except the person that wrote it.

P.S. What is the *"appropriate" non-pedantic interpretation* of:

*Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.*


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> - TheFridge


Makes sense to me.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Ford and dodge went to d.c. and agreed that g.m. should be bailed out (in case they needed the same kind of bailout in the future).
If a co needs a bailout to be saved that is the market telling the co they dont need to be saved. A bailout of this nature is taking stolen funds and giving them to a company after people said they didnt want their product.

Anyone who uses the gvt to point a gun at me to get money (taxes) is dead to me along with any gvt. Banks included. I do not use or support companies who do business this way to the best of my abilities. Those who are funded this way are parasites.



> Does harley get/ got u.s. bailouts or try to mandate something they make to be had on all bikes? if so then yes-scorched earth. Just like GM, Ford and Dodge.
> 
> This.
> 
> ...


----------



## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Yes, de-digiting does happen. But should I not be free to be allowed to choose to use this tech?
> My problem is regulating the market. If it is only advertising "Hey, we ll save digits is you buy our saw". Thats great. If it is trying to have the market regulated then screw them. I dont necessarily hate the product, I hate the attempt at regulation. The principal is enough to keep me from buying them.
> 
> - SirIrb


De-digiting! That is the euphemism of the year (so far).

I can't see the table saw dystopia if sawstop had actually achieved their goal from what 13 years back? Every new saw would have flesh detecting and blade retracting technology. Doesn't sound bad to me, de-digitng would be way down! It would only affect new saws at that point, so people that didn't like it could buy older saws (many LJers seem to prefer that anyway).

As I said before, the market had a decade or more to show its invisible hand and sawstop only just now has a sort of competitor.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Now you are insulting me as pedantic and calling me a liar. Thanks for raising the bar against people that disagree with you.


LOL - I called you a liar?!? I'd ask you to explain how, but I really don't think it would do much good at this point.



> P.S. What is the *"appropriate" non-pedantic interpretation* of….


The interpretation of the statement was not what was inappropriate, it was applying it to a wider group of people than just the single person who made it. I tried to make that clear by giving an example, but apparently you missed it (or chose to ignore it).

Cheers,
Brad


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> - TheFridge


Does it really work that way though?

If you run off the road and rollover and get thrown from your car, are you not going to be treated, "regardless of ability to pay" just like every other illness or injury that shows up at the hospital ER?
So under that law…the Insurance company ducked payment through the fine print.

But the taxpayers then will get the bill when the buggered up driver cannot pay for his care.

We really do not have 'personal responsibility'. The mandatory treatment law (Reagan 1986) was passed banning dumping of patients and denial of care to illegal or the poor, generally a good concept, however:

That opened the door to government being 'enabled' to regulate smoking, helmets for bicycle riders, seatbelts, airbags (we can expect eventually Tablesaws) because if you smash your melon, the rest of the people *have to pay for you*…. so your 'freedom of choice' got limited.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Ford and dodge went to d.c. and agreed that g.m. should be bailed out (in case they needed the same kind of bailout in the future).
> If a co needs a bailout to be saved that is the market telling the co they dont need to be saved. A bailout of this nature is taking stolen funds and giving them to a company after people said they didnt want their product.
> 
> Anyone who uses the gvt to point a gun at me to get money (taxes) is dead to me along with any gvt. Banks included. I do not use or support companies who do business this way to the best of my abilities. Those who are funded this way are parasites.
> ...


Ford took some pretty bitter pills to stay profitable, they sold off most of the other companies they owned.

Don't forget the oil companies that make huge profits, but still take gvt money! So no oil based products for you.

Pharmaceutical companies practically get to write the regulations, so no medicine either.

This is fun, but way off topic now.

Please continue with the sawstop bashing.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Now you are insulting me as pedantic and calling me a liar. Thanks for raising the bar against people that disagree with you.
> 
> LOL - I called you a liar?!? I d ask you to explain how, but I really don t think it would do much good at this point.
> 
> ...


Ok, what does disingenuous mean to you?

Please show me where I applied it to you or anyone but the poster? Perhaps you are looking for (and seeing) insults that aren't really there.

EDIT:

I'm still interested in the non-pedantic interpretation of the statement, please?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> ...


Yeah, mostly!


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

> I think it is a great saw for anyone who is not comfortable with their power tools . As for me i grew up with tools all my life so i would never waste the money to buy a expensive saw like Saw stop .
> I have always used cheap table saws and never had a problem . If i do lose a finger that is ok because i still have 9 more ;-))
> 
> - john


Getting to comfortable with your power tools is dangerous as it leads to compliancy. Plus it's possible to do everything right and still have things go very wrong with a table saw or any power tool for that matter. There was a student at the school I was going to that was running a board on edge though the table saw when it tipped forward and caused his hand to drop onto the saw. Now one might say he should have had a backer board or feather boards but how many people have run wider boards this way before? if this hadn't been a saw stop he wouldn't have just lost a finger but possibly his whole hand. Well I guess you always have the other one right? There is a video of a slo motion kickback on the web that shows the persons hands with push stick getting awful close to the blade as well when the board pulled his hand toward the saw. The point is you can't anticipate everything bad that might happen when your using a power tool. Now maybe you will get lucky and never have a event that causes major injury but never fool yourself into thinking you are doing anything other than gambling with your fingers or possibly worse when you do that. You can reduce that chance of injury though smart tool use and safety practices but you can't eliminate it even with a Saw Stop.

I wasn't a big fan of Saw Stop before I used one at the school and still am not a huge fan of how the creator has tried to litigate his solution into a industry standard but it is a well built solid saw that I would compare favorably to any other cabinet saw on the market today. My next table saw will likely be a Saw Stop not because I am careless in the shop which I am not but because I understand that you can be very careful and do everything right and still have something bad happen. If the Saw Stop was the blade break tech bolted onto a crappy saw I would probably not even consider buying it but they are offering a top quality saw with a innovative safety technology on it for not a unreasonable premium to the price compared to their peers like Delta and Powermatic. When I look at it that way and factor in the value of my fingers to my livelihood it's not a difficult decision to make really.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> That opened the door to government being enabled to regulate smoking, helmets for bicycle riders, seatbelts, airbags (we can expect eventually Tablesaws) because if you smash your melon, the rest of the people *have to pay for you*…. so your freedom of choice got limited.
> 
> - DrDirt
> 
> ...


I think so it will be with table saw injuries…. the fact is that when you show up at the ER with 3 fingers in an ice chest and your hand wrapped in a towel….

They will (at least try) to put your fingers back on.

They won't say - - well this injury is YOUR PROBLEM:
Should have had a riving knife!
or
Should have been more careful
or
Should have bought a Sawstop

so have a nice life…. unless you have a personal fortune.

We invited the government intrusion, with the demand we be taken care of for any/all mistakes we make.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> That opened the door to government being enabled to regulate smoking, helmets for bicycle riders, seatbelts, airbags (we can expect eventually Tablesaws) because if you smash your melon, the rest of the people *have to pay for you*…. so your freedom of choice got limited.
> 
> - DrDirt
> 
> ...


Off topic mostly… have you heard that hands and other body parts can be sewn into a persons abdomen to keep the item alive until it can be sewn back on? Just amazing to me!


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

And that is what a co is supposed to do. But they still said they support GM's bailout because they thought they may be on the receiving end one day.

This is all about trying to get money via circumventing the market. And trying to get regulations passed is a way of doing it.

You missed my line about " I do not use or support companies who do business this way to the best of my abilities." To the best of my abilities means I avoid u.s. automakers among other co's.

So do you just love SS that much or the state? If you love SS that much fine. I am sure it is a good saw. Cutting wood is all I am concerned about. If you have some odd fetish for the state then we will never see eye to eye.



> Ford and dodge went to d.c. and agreed that g.m. should be bailed out (in case they needed the same kind of bailout in the future).
> If a co needs a bailout to be saved that is the market telling the co they dont need to be saved. A bailout of this nature is taking stolen funds and giving them to a company after people said they didnt want their product.
> 
> Anyone who uses the gvt to point a gun at me to get money (taxes) is dead to me along with any gvt. Banks included. I do not use or support companies who do business this way to the best of my abilities. Those who are funded this way are parasites.
> ...


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

*I've got an idea - lets start a thread "Why you hate Festool" then we'll REALLY get it going….*

*LOOK* If you wanna buy a SS because you're scared you're gonna cut your finger off, that's your right.
If you don't mind buying it from a company who's trying to leverage the market, that's your right.

I find it quite ironic that you see the bandsaws, RAS's and miter saws most of you SS guys's shops.

I can't help but say if you got a SS solely out of concern for safety, then be consistent and get rid of your BS, your RAS, and your MS because they're just as dangerous (if not more dangerous) than your TS.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Please show me where I applied it to you or anyone but the poster? Perhaps you are looking for (and seeing) insults that aren't really there.
> 
> I m still interested in the non-pedantic interpretation of the statement, please?


----------



## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Please show me where I applied it to you or anyone but the poster? Perhaps you are looking for (and seeing) insults that aren't really there.
> 
> I m still interested in the non-pedantic interpretation of the statement, please?
> 
> ...


Thanks for conceding the point. Obviously you would have shown it if you could.

So what does disingenuous mean to you?


----------



## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

> Of course its about money. You invent something, you try and get rich selling it. *In other countries, you invent something, the government owns it and they get rich off of it. *Maybe one is better than the other.
> 
> -Brian
> - bbasiaga
> ...


China, Russia, some of the semi dictatorship South American ccountries, and some of southeast asia. Admittedly, some of my info may be dated as in those parts of the world things change fast. Mainly just looking to point out that trying to get rich off a patent doesnt necessarily nake one evil, and that the ability to do so is a good thing.

Steve Jobs and apple tried to sue Android out of existence and/or in to paying a royalty on every touch screen device to protect their ability to make money. They lost and did not seek for the government to mandate Siri in every phone, but it is another example of legal maneuvering to develop or protect a business. Happens daily.

Brian


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> And that is what a co is supposed to do. But they still said they support GM s bailout because they thought they may be on the receiving end one day.
> 
> This is all about trying to get money via circumventing the market. And trying to get regulations passed is a way of doing it.
> 
> ...


In June 2009, GM and Chrysler emerged from bankruptcy. The bailout helped them create 340,000 additional jobs. Even Ford, which did not take a bailout, said it benefited. Without the bailout, the entire industry would have been severely disrupted.

http://useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/auto_bailout.htm

I can't find anything about ford wanting a possible future bailout. I think they would have real concerns about the feeder plants going out of business. Thousands of companies would be seriously affected when the number 1 auto company went bust.

You are concerned with more than cutting wood as evidenced by your posts.

Aren't most fetishes "*Odd*"? All kidding aside, does arguing with you about what a company tried to do, mean I have a fetish?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Of course its about money. You invent something, you try and get rich selling it. *In other countries, you invent something, the government owns it and they get rich off of it. *Maybe one is better than the other.
> 
> -Brian
> - bbasiaga
> ...


They seem to do a lot of suing these days. What is the line about innovate or litigate?


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Who cares about the jobs created? That presumes that the funds stolen from me were justified because they did X. When the market says that there are not enough people who want the product it is a sign that the product does not need to exist or the company needs to pull itself up by its boot straps and figure out how to supply what is demanded.

I really hate the "it created X jobs" argument. Do some research on the piano industry in the early 1900's (I believe). They faced the exact same thing but took no bailout. So something like 20 piano companies went out of business. Did jobs get lost? Yep. Thats the market saying that people didnt want pianos as much as they once did. http://mises.org/library/end-us-piano-industry

Ford going to d.c. with the other 2 seems to make it obvious that they were trying to get cushioned in case they couldnt make it. Otherwise all they would have to do is remain silent and they would remove a competitor.

Yes, I have fetishes too. "The market in leather" is the name for my new book.



> And that is what a co is supposed to do. But they still said they support GM s bailout because they thought they may be on the receiving end one day.
> 
> This is all about trying to get money via circumventing the market. And trying to get regulations passed is a way of doing it.
> 
> ...


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Thanks for conceding the point. Obviously you would have shown it if you could.


Naw… I just realize that it's not worth the effort given your penchant for ignoring previous examples, dismissing analogies based on irrelevant criteria, generalizing statements across a wide spectrum of posters and other behaviour you have so far exhibited. Plus, I have better things to do - like finish up welding a new mobile base for my saw and making some HDPE wheels for it on the lathe.

But if it gives you the warm fuzzies, by all means… run with it 

Cheers,
Brad


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> ...


The point was missed. You are responsible for yourself.


----------



## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Thanks for conceding the point. Obviously you would have shown it if you could.
> 
> Naw… I just realize that it s not worth the effort given your penchant for ignoring previous examples, dismissing analogies based on irrelevant criteria, generalizing statements across a wide spectrum of posters and other behaviour you have so far exhibited. Plus, I have better things to do - like finish up welding a new mobile base for my saw and making some HDPE wheels for it on the lathe.
> 
> ...


Making statements without any basis seems to be your thing. Run away, it took longer to write the above than it would to prove any of your accusations. Are you sure you spelled Unix correctly?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> ...


So to clarify, if I'm hit by another driver in Shreveport even though it is their fault, my insurance and the other drivers insurance won't pay for any of my injuries because I wasn't wearing a seatbelt? So, if I'm pretty mangled and run up a really big hospital bill that I can't pay back, who does pay it?

I feel stupid people need to be protected from themselves. I have to carry car insurance in case someone from VA comes to MD and hits me. We have to carry uninsured and under-insured insurance.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Always be careful when someone says the following: "I feel stupid people need to be protected from themselves."

I dont want to know what you feel. Save feelings for your wife. Tell me what you think.

I think stupid people shouldnt have people ruining their blissfully ignorant fun. Dont bother me and I wont bother you. Remember: everyone is stupid to someone. So that means someone is looking at you just trying to figure out how to pass a law because you do X. What is your vice? Drink, smoke, food, sugar? You a vegan? There is someone who thinks you are stupid and want to save you from you or maybe save the cows from you.



> In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.
> 
> It s the individuals choice. How it should be.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Let's go ahead and strip the 2nd amendment from the constitution and ban sugar while we are at it.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Kitchen knives are bad too. You don't need a knife to eat.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Always be careful when someone says the following: "I feel stupid people need to be protected from themselves."
> 
> I dont want to know what you feel. Save feelings for your wife. Tell me what you think.
> 
> ...


Got it, have a nice day.


----------



## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Let s go ahead and strip the 2nd amendment from the constitution and ban sugar while we are at it.
> 
> - TheFridge


I'm so glad we never go overboard in our posts.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

At least no one pulled Hitler or the Nazi's out during this discourse. I was about to once then said "Just wait a minute, you can just use Mao."


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Kitchen knives are bad too. You don t need a knife to eat.
> 
> - TheFridge


Why do you hate knives? What did they ever do to you?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> At least no one pulled Hitler or the Nazi s out during this discourse. I was about to once then said "Just wait a minute, you can just use Mao."
> 
> - SirIrb


Hmmm, asking for legislation to Mao. Anyway you mentioned Hitler, so we need to shut this down now.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

You're all about protecting people from themselves. You tell me what I can and can't do. Obviously I can't go out and buy a non-sawstop saw. Might as well keep it going.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> The point was missed. You are responsible for yourself.
> 
> - TheFridge


Don't think I missed it… If *I *have an accident cut off a finger, but cannot pay…. YOU and other taxpayers will be forced to cover it.

ergo…. I am really NOT EVER held responsible for my own actions.

*( I agree I should be… but that is not how it works in reality)*

so now…
With the announcement from Bosch with their new jobsite saw with flesh sensing technology, we can expect a new round of pressure to mandate "Safe Saws" this now that it is no longer a monopoly.

And the Sawstop patent will/has expired.

All because somewhere, somebody was hurt/sued/and new regulations put in.

As we all see with government… the Bureaucracy must expand to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> You re all about protecting people from themselves. You tell me what I can and can t do. Obviously I can t go out and buy a non-sawstop saw. Might as well keep it going.


Well, whatever you do, don't bother trying to invent a shoe liner to prevent a twisted ankle and then attempt to force regulations so every shoe manufacturer has to buy it from you. As we all know, that's only OK to do if it prevents something as serious as a table saw accident… and a twisted ankle doesn't even come close 

Cheers,
Brad

PS: Almost finished with the base… got them DC pictures yet? ;-O


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> You re all about protecting people from themselves. You tell me what I can and can t do. Obviously I can t go out and buy a non-sawstop saw. Might as well keep it going.
> 
> - TheFridge


I believe you can buy any saw you want/have the money for. I also believe the saws can be made safer and should be.

Where did I tell you what you can or can't do? I'm starting to suspect what I post doesn't really matter!


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> You re all about protecting people from themselves. You tell me what I can and can t do. Obviously I can t go out and buy a non-sawstop saw. Might as well keep it going.
> 
> Well, whatever you do, don t bother trying to invent a shoe liner to prevent a twisted ankle and then attempt to force regulations so every shoe manufacturer has to buy it from you. As we all know, that s only OK to do if it prevents something as serious as a table saw accident… and a twisted ankle doesn t even come close
> 
> ...


Boy, sure hit a nerve there, perhaps some ice would help.


----------



## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

1


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

"I'm starting to suspect what I post doesn't really matter"

Hey, you finally figured it out.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> "I'm starting to suspect what I post doesn't really matter"
> 
> Hey, you finally figured it out.
> 
> - unbob


I meant the specific verbiage to some people, but I see your point.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

The problem is the tax part, not the personal responsibility part. Remove the taxes. All of them. Always. Dust bin of history. A sad time not to be fondly remembered.

Also, this is a slippery slope. everyone has something they think you should be protected from. That something can always be medical or lead to medical.

Ergo: You should not be allowed to eat red meat because that could increase your chance for heart disease and cause me to foot the bill for your forthcoming heart attack (or some such dribble like that).

Per my first line: change reality to something better (no taxes) and make people be personally responsible by paying for what they screw up i.e. de-digiting.



> The point was missed. You are responsible for yourself.
> 
> - TheFridge
> 
> ...


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> The problem is the tax part, not the personal responsibility part. Remove the taxes. All of them. Always. Dust bin of history. A sad time not to be fondly remembered.
> - SirIrb


Just make a big payment to the IRS?

Perhaps you should increase your withholdings, so it isn't such a big hit.

So, if I'm getting this correct, anything that does (Taxes) or possibly will cost you (sawstop request to change rules) is dead to you?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> PS: Almost finished with the base… got them DC pictures yet? ;-O
> 
> - MrUnix


What DC pictures?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> The problem is the tax part, not the personal responsibility part. Remove the taxes. All of them. Always. Dust bin of history. A sad time not to be fondly remembered.
> 
> Also, this is a slippery slope. everyone has something they think you should be protected from. That something can always be medical or lead to medical.
> 
> ...


I kind of like the idea of police and fire and schools and roads and bridges and potable water….. I am for tax reform and like a fair tax but a "get rid of all taxes" is not desirable.

The slippery slope is the point of my earlier post…we hire busybodies to protect us from ourselves. they are NOT elected, and essentially cannot be fired.

Sure we elect congress and Presidents. and the President appoints Cabinet Secretaries that "run" the EPA, DOE, Ed Dept, Interior, Defense, state.
However all the new regs… NOT voted on by congress, are written by career bureaucrats who will still be ther for the next 20 years writing new regs.
We the People canot fire them.
The Governmetn sadly is NOT us anymore. Just the figureheads change… but the Sierra Clubbers and Green Peace staffers that all work at EPA and DOE keep cranking rules out no matter who is in charge.

So these jokers will write new stricter rules next year and teh year after that and the year after that… because they have nothing else to do.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

taxation can not be defined by anything other than theft. Yes, that is dead to me.


> The problem is the tax part, not the personal responsibility part. Remove the taxes. All of them. Always. Dust bin of history. A sad time not to be fondly remembered.
> - SirIrb
> 
> Just make a big payment to the IRS?
> ...


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Whatever the demand is the market will supply. Kill all taxes. There is no such thing as "fair Tax". when you replace tax with what it really is-theft-then the phrase "fair theft" sounds silly.



> The problem is the tax part, not the personal responsibility part. Remove the taxes. All of them. Always. Dust bin of history. A sad time not to be fondly remembered.
> 
> Also, this is a slippery slope. everyone has something they think you should be protected from. That something can always be medical or lead to medical.
> 
> ...


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> I just don t think the average hobbyist needs one IF-and that s a big IF-they have had some kind of instruction or studied safety procedures.
> 
> .....They hate the saw for the downtime it causes and some of the guys won t even use it because they don t want to be the one on it when it goes bang.


That seems like the opposite logic I would use. Being a hobbyist, having a family, have a job that requires my hands… sounds like the perfect for for a hobby shop. Especially for one with kids around. I figure you pay about $200-$400 for the SS over a similar size/power/quality table saw. That is a small deposit against going to the ER with someones hand in a cooler.

If someone is not using the saw because they don't want to trigger it, they just turn a key and bypass it, or be thankful to be the one who tripped the mechanism, because he is the guy who kept his fingers.

I agree with TheDane on all 4 of his points.

*As a bonus, it is a better saw than most similarly priced saws. Until you have assembled one or really dug into, you could not know that.*

A better fence, more stable table and blade, better riving knife, and fine adjustments holding their position all help against kickback. So a better saw does help. That doesn't mean you cannot get hurt, just means you should be better off and when you really screw up, slip, or react the wrong way, you are less likely to spend the next months rehabbing a surgery.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Whatever the demand is the market will supply. Kill all taxes. There is no such thing as "fair Tax". when you replace tax with what it really is-theft-then the phrase "fair theft" sounds silly.
> 
> - SirIrb


Now that is funny, really about the funniest thing I have read in a while! No taxes and a free market!

I think you have a fetish for the market.

The market will drive into the ditch constantly, take a look at history with the rose colored glasses off, my friend. The invisible hand of the market only feeds itself. Regulations after the great depression slowed the market down and gave us many decades of growth (wars helped, but not so much any more), taking off the regulations drove us into the ditch.

Regulations are written in blood and are needed to help us live as a group. I have an idea, you stop paying taxes and following regulations, but you can't use anything taxes paid for, MMMKay?


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> taxation can not be defined by anything other than theft. Yes, that is dead to me.
> 
> - SirIrb


You can't have your own version of English. We agree to pay the taxes as members of society. I think you will have to give up the internet since Al Gore used taxes to create the internet.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

The idea that sawstop makes you LESS safe because you aren't worried about getting hurt astounds me. Did people stop paying attention to the road when seatbelts got installed in every car? Senseless. In my day job, I have worked in varying levels of depth with process and personnel safety my entire career. Here is how it works.

Layers of Protection. The Swiss Cheese Model.

In every industry, every trade, every business the data is the same. No protection is 100% fail safe. Each has some holes in it - like swiss cheese. Some have more holes than others. But, stack up enough layers of cheese and chances are there is not one hole that makes it all the way through the stack. Therefore, accidents are prevented.

On a table saw, the fence alignment, riving knife, push stick, blade guard, kickback pawls, and operator training/attentiveness are all layers of protection, specifically pre-emptive protections designed to prevent an accident from occurring. Some are better than others, but guess which one has the most holes in its slice? YOU. The person. The operator. The experienced, trained guy. Yes, he has less holes than the inexperienced, untrained, inattentive guy, but he's still got the most holes in our stack of cheese slices. This is true in virtually every industry I have studied. There are a lot of accidents the guard and proper alignment, etc., will stop, but they won't stop all kinds of accidents. It will come down eventually to the kinds of accidents the operator is responsible for stopping, and he is the least complete piece of cheese in the stack.

Since you are already the most likely thing to cause a table saw accident, further inattentiveness on your part is moving your accident likelihood by degrees, not step changes.

Most saws have none of the secondary layers of protection - those designed to reduce the impact of the accident as/after it happens. Sawstop and now the Bosch system are the only two. When you touch the blade, it reduces the severity of the consequences. Just like your seatbelt in the car.

Overall, most table saws have designed out (by adding guards, riving knives, etc) the things the saw itself can do to cause an accident. The remainder rely heavily on the user him/herself to prevent them, and then have no further protection beyond that. With the sawstop and bosch systems, you have added a way to reduce the severity of an accident (touching flesh to blade), and the overall likelihood of a high severity injury is greatly reduced.

As such, even if you decide to no longer pay attention to what you are doing on the saw, the major accident risk is much lower with Sawstop.

As a note, it is interesting how many here don't use the blade guards, riving knives, and pawls designed to prevent the other types of severe incidents (kickbacks, etc.). Choosing instead to rely on themselves (the weakest link) instead.

-Brian


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

bbasiaga….a great post and analysis of safety and accidents. However, you will never convince some people about it. Some will never use a riving knife or a guard as they believe they do not need it. I really hope that they are correct and not one of the 4000 amputations per year.

I worked in a very dangerous environment involving liquid steel at 3000 F, and it was difficult to get people to wear their personal protective equipment. They believed they were good enough and did not need it.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

...making the human ego the biggest hole in the cheese of all…


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

You missed the point again.

But you can let me know what hospital I can go to where the taxpayers will pay my bill. Tired of them showing up in my mailbox.

Lets go ahead and mandate cnc machines for anyone who carves. Knives are dangerous. Cnc machines don't cost that much more than a good set of carving tools.

Edit: if you need the govt to tell you what you can do then go for it. I'm good.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Let s go ahead and strip the 2nd amendment from the constitution and ban sugar while we are at it.
> 
> - TheFridge
> 
> ...


Ok, but I need someone to protect me from myself.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> You missed the point again.
> 
> But you can let me know what hospital I can go to where the taxpayers will pay my bill. Tired of them showing up in my mailbox.
> 
> ...


I can't decide if your posts like this are ad nauseam or ad absurdum, I'm gonna go with ad absurdum for now.

This reminds me of the conservative nuts on tv trying to talk down raising the minimum wage by saying: "...where will it end let's pay them $100/hour" yup definitely absurd.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Let s go ahead and strip the 2nd amendment from the constitution and ban sugar while we are at it.
> 
> - TheFridge
> I m so glad we never go overboard in our posts.
> ...


Yup, always reasonable… Although, I could get behind ending the 2nd amendment, banning sugar is crazy.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Where did I agree to do this? Where is my membership card I agreed to? Dont go all "social contract" on me. that is the dumbest concept. For a contract to be a contract it has to be signed by the parties who agreed to it. My name is not on it.

Free market (Per your previous post) is a market that is-wait for it-free. A regulated market is not-wait for it-free.

War as a boom to the economy is a false bubble. Read the broken window fallacy by Bastiat.

Your concept of Regulations are needed paint with a wide brush. Let me lay it down this way: There is Malum in se and there is Malum prohibita. Malum in se is all that is needed in a society. Malum prohibita is just a bunch of old men with nothing better to do than to write down what they dislike and make it law [Read: drug prohibition, no even better, Liquor prohibition].



> taxation can not be defined by anything other than theft. Yes, that is dead to me.
> 
> - SirIrb
> 
> ...


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Where did I agree to do this? Where is my membership card I agreed to? Dont go all "social contract" on me. that is the dumbest concept. For a contract to be a contract it has to be signed by the parties who agreed to it. My name is not on it.
> 
> Free market (Per your previous post) is a market that is-wait for it-free. A regulated market is not-wait for it-free.
> 
> ...


Soon as you opened the package you agreed… just kidding, if you don't like the way things are set up, try to change them or find a freer place to live. Staying is agreeing to the rules. Grousing about them isn't helping your cause at all.

Plus, if you think a free market is great then look at some history and you will see that free markets lead to the opposite of free, they lead to monopolies. Again history shows this. Any company that can, will increase market share any way they can until they control the market (capitalism is after all the accumulation of capital) then poof your choices are gone. And then you pay what they want to charge.

A free market is lawless correct? Or do you allow some laws? If you allow some then it isn't free. A free market should be called what it is, 100% predatory. What you espouse is a fantasy that doesn't/didn't work. What were the people called that ascended the pinnacle of the free market? Oh yeah Robber Barons, good times, eh?


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## woodplay (Aug 11, 2009)

I have a question about the sawstop price. Other than the blade break, great quality saw manufacturers such as Powermatic, Jet and Delta are 1/2 the cost. Literally. Is that blade break really worth Double the price? I've been doing hobby woodworking for 7 years and I just make sure to take my time, have riving knives, stand in the right position, use the correct push stick or block, make a jig in order to make a cut safely, etc. All the things woodworkers Should be doing but apparently are not. So you might say that yes, your fingers are worth another $1,000. Well ya if you're not careful as I previously stated. But then why not $2,000 or 5,000? I think double the price for a blade break is ridiculous when all you need to do is use the machine and yourself the correct way. To further that point, sawstop has a plethora of videos on their site. Which at first I was happy to see and thought some of these must be about the saw, the trunions, ability to do this or that. No, they were all about instilling fear, which comes across to me as fear mongering. Also you might say, well their customer service is amazing and they just sent me a new cast iron wing and a blade! Well why not?! You just paid 2X the cost of any table saw, so it's very easy for them to justify their cost of sending you these things and to pay for great customer service representatives. Their still making money because of the outrageous price.

Having said that. If I had a shop class with kids, or if my kids wanted to use it, I could justify the cost. Young people have time on their side and they feel invincible. They don't yet have the age/wisdom to fully understand the value doing things the safe right way even if it takes much longer.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

The most popular table saw for years was the Delta Unisaw. They've had a bit of a resurgence. They are currently priced through Rockler for $3000 for a comparable cabinet saw. The same Sawstop is maybe $200 more. Comparable JET is $2500 through Northern Tool so about a $700 difference. Whether its worth it is up to you. We've discussed to death how people haven't had accidents, right up until they have one. I just had a minor one where I was "being careful" yet still nicked my finger. Still not sure how it came in contact with the blade but it did. Would have lost the tip of my finger had it not been for the brake.


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## IHRedRules (May 11, 2014)

> Having said that. If I had a shop class with kids, or if my kids wanted to use it, I could justify the cost. Young people have time on their side and they feel invincible. They don t yet have the age/wisdom to fully understand the value doing things the safe right way even if it takes much longer.
> 
> - Rick


I know 2 older gentlemen (70 or older) that have cut off finger tips within the last 2 years. Both are experienced woodworkers. Whether you agree with sawstop or not is not the issue. The real issue is that accidents can and do happen, even to those that know what they are doing.

I upgraded to SawStop not to guarantee that an accident will be prevented, but to hopefully prevent a more serious injury. I will continue to pay attention and use all safety measures as I used before SawStop.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

> I have a question about the sawstop price. Other than the blade break, great quality saw manufacturers such as Powermatic, Jet and Delta are 1/2 the cost.
> - Rick


The same question could be asked about the Delta and Powermatic saws compared to Grizzly. I can buy a 5HP Grizzly saw for $1400, the Delta is $2900, the Powermatic is $3775 and the Saw Stop is $4400. What makes the Grizzly a $1400 saw and the others so much more?

I do think that Saw Stop ICS saws are priced for more of a premium than their 3HP PCS saws probably because Saw Stop knows commercial companies are going to buy them regardless for insurance reasons. If you compare the prices of a 3HP 52" saw it's $3000 for the Powermatic, $2680 for the Delta, $1500 for the Grizzly, and $3000 for the SawStop PCS. The premium for the blade break on the PCS is a lot less than the ICS models. How much that premium is depends on where in that range of manufactures you rate the Saw Stop. If you rated the Saw Stop PCS on par with a Powermatic PM2000 than the blade break tech is being thrown in for free.

My opinion is the decision on Saw Stop is a personal one unless you run a business than your insurance is probably going to make that decision for you. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer for home woodworkers personally. Either it's worth the extra cost to you or it isn't. Just like there is no right or wrong answer to the question of if Powermatic is worth the premium over Grizzly.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> I have a question about the sawstop price. Other than the blade break, great quality saw manufacturers such as Powermatic, Jet and Delta are 1/2 the cost. Literally. Is that blade break really worth Double the price?
> 
> Having said that. If I had a shop class with kids, or if my kids wanted to use it, I could justify the cost. Young people have time on their side and they feel invincible. They don t yet have the age/wisdom to fully understand the value doing things the safe right way even if it takes much longer.
> 
> - Rick


I think you are comparing apples and oranges. (all prices include shipping (250$)...vs really being "free shipping")

Sawstop PCS 3HP with 52 inch table…. 3249
http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/sawstop-pcs31230-tgp252
Powermatic PM2000 with 50 inch table ….2959
http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/powermatic-1792002k
Delta Unisaw 50 inch (acme tools) 2999
http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/delta-36-l552

Jet Xaacta 50 inch (acme tools) 2449 (on sale)
http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/jet-708675pk

Head to head the 'top line' saws line up pretty close on price.

There are cheaper table saws….but that isn't a fair comparison.

I like your last part of the reasoning best. but many old timers… with tons of experince are missing fingers.

Someone on here made the statement… *"You can have my Sawstop when you pry it from my cold dead fingers… which I will still have"*


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

> I have a question about the sawstop price. Other than the blade break, great quality saw manufacturers such as Powermatic, Jet and Delta are 1/2 the cost.
> - Rick
> 
> The same question could be asked about the Delta and Powermatic saws compared to Grizzly. I can buy a 5HP Grizzly saw for $1400, the Delta is $2900, the Powermatic is $3775 and the Saw Stop is $4400. What makes the Grizzly a $1400 saw and the others so much more?
> ...


As others have said, similarly equipped they are all in the same ball park. I owned a Grizzly 3hp for over 10 years and they are a great saw. I only sold it to upgrade to the 5hp ICS. I would have bought the PCS if It came in 5hp. There are diff between the PCS & ICS though more cast iron, and there are interlocks in the ICS and other diff.

The ICS is the comercial version but they don't price it to just be expensive.

They are however a quality piece of equipment no doubt. They are not everyone's cup of tea for sure, but they are a great saw if you want the safety and quality.


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## woodplay (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys but I still have a very different cost comparison. I'm specifically looking at sawstops least expensive option which is their contractor, 36", cast iron wings and mobile base = $2148 shipped.

Powermatic 64B = $1700 shipped
Jet JPS 10TS = $1350 shipped
Delta 5100 = $1100 shipped

Now while these examples do have slight varying degrees of quality, they're all very good saws for a substantially lower price. Also, I feel that I've made some very nice things with my jet contractors saw and know that it's less about the saw and more about the woodworkers skill. So I believe that it is fair to compare these saws.

Again, I want the sawstop break. Just thinking that they're asking a bit more than they should. But hey, if you're buying, they're selling so I can't fault them for making money. I'm just trying to decide if they get my money.

Additionally it doesn't surprise me that many older and seasoned woodworkers are having accidents. I work at a well known railroad in the US. We keep extremely accurate accident records as safety is our #1 priority. The most accidents occur with our older and most experienced railroaders. The reason being complacency. They've done something so many times that they loose a bit of respect for the danger surrounding them and that's when it happens. I'm not making this up for my arguments sake. It's exhaustively analyzed at my company. The next greatest amount of accidents occur with new hires and the least amount, if any, occur in between.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

When comparing contractor saws the Sawstop is definitely a higher priced alternative. Although Delta is on the comeback trail, retailers tell me parts are still very hard to come by. Everything is backordered for months when they order. So service will be a factor in any decision as well. My local Woodcraft store and our area Lowes stopped selling Delta due to service problems a year or so ago, so I have no more up to date information on them. They have started to advertise again so hopefully they got an infusion of money and are a good option.


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## woodplay (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for that info Jim. I definitely don't want to order from Delta then. Although it's not their first time making a table saw, I'll treat it as such and not become an early adopter.

Now there's probably another place for this question or it's been answered. What's the difference to the woodworking between table mounted and cabinet mounted trunions? I've only had table mounted on my jet contractors saw and I absolutely hated trying to get that perfectly aligned. Also I want it aligned to the miter slot by .001 of an inch. Is that where cabinet mounted trunions shine?


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Cabinet mounted allows you to loosen 3 or 4 bolts holding the table top on and rotate the table to tweak it to the blade. This is the easiest way to get it correct.

Top mounted allows for long nights with Jimmy Beam, cursing etc. You have to loosen 3 bolts and move the whole assembly in respect to the table. When I built professionally and had to check/ tweak the saws (PM66 and PM72) it was quite easy. Ratchet, boom, boom, boom, tweak, measure, tighten.



> Thanks for that info Jim. I definitely don t want to order from Delta then. Although it s not their first time making a table saw, I ll treat it as such and not become an early adopter.
> 
> Now there s probably another place for this question or it s been answered. What s the difference to the woodworking between table mounted and cabinet mounted trunions? I ve only had table mounted on my jet contractors saw and I absolutely hated trying to get that perfectly aligned. Also I want it aligned to the miter slot by .001 of an inch. Is that where cabinet mounted trunions shine?
> 
> - Rick


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> Thanks for the input guys but I still have a very different cost comparison. I m specifically looking at sawstops least expensive option which is their contractor, 36", cast iron wings and mobile base = $2148 shipped.
> 
> - Rick


Hey Rick - a new benchmark for braking is coming …. Bosch makes a contractor/jobsite saw, not in full distribution, that has instead of a blade brake, an 'airbag' type piston that lowers the blade on skin contact without destroying the blade. called the REAXX
http://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-table-saw-gts1041a-preview/14811/
•Includes a 2-shot carriage w/60 second reset time
•MSRP: $1499 (replacement cartridges cost $99 each)

which is close to sawstop's jobsite saw at 1399
http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/sawstop-jss-mca

seems only sawstop has a contractor saw with the blade brake so far


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## sf_hombre (Feb 6, 2015)

Most industrial machine accidents where guards are not present are caused by momentary distraction or a lapse of attention by the operator. That's regrettable-but predictable: we're all human. We can't eliminate mistakes but we can and should lessen the consequences where it is reasonable to do so. The penalty for such mistakes should not be the unnecessary loss of a hand or other serious injury.

And why all the hate because the guy making money from his invention happens to be a lawyer? He is promoting his invention in the most effective way he knows how-as would any inventor/company. All the lobbyists in state capitols and Washington D.C. are trying to get special legislative treatment for their clients. 'Tis the way of the world.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

For jobsite saws, its not just the cost of the brake, its making the saw robust enough to handle the force of the action. A typical saw would implode from the action. I haven't examined the specs but I'm sure the sawstop is significantly heavier than the other saws


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## gkb (Aug 4, 2015)

I would hate to own a Sawstop now because if I owned one I would be using it instead of reading these posts. I can afford one I just have a hard time pulling the trigger. My Powermatic 64a has served my well the last 16 yrs and still works great. Never had an accident with it but that only means that I am lucky and safety aware. Mostly lucky. My luck will probably run out before the next 16 yrs.


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## Dj1225 (Apr 27, 2012)

Buy a sliding table saw and you will have better performance and in a much safer environment. Not only do they preform better most come with a guide that is adjustable to move to where it is aligned with the saw blade to help avoid binding. If you are concerned about safety, there is nothing better. And yes they are expensive, about 20% of the cost of one trip to an emergency room visit.


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## AJonwheels (Dec 10, 2020)

What a lively thread. coming in 5 years after that last post I'm of course late to the party.

First a little about me: I'm a prosthetist, you know the person who makes arms and hands for people who lose them - usually in accidents. . . Thought that might get your attention - even way down here…I'm also a woodworker and now considering a new table saw. Nope, I'm not made of money and yes, I'm a relatively experienced woodworker. I'm also short and the big saws contractors / cabinet saws have always scared the pajeebers out of me. But I think I'm going to take out a second mortgage and buy the sawstop. 
1. My bro makes furniture and when I called for his advice - sawstop
2. I've seen too many hands missing fingers that I had to make a replacement for. I'm good at what I do, but the original equipment is far better
3. a little insurance is a good thing. Yes, accidents happen, but don't you all have car insurance?

Three reasons:

So it's with a deep breath and lord knows a satchel full of money that I'm heading out and getting one of these bad-boys so that at the least, I have insurance.

Over and out folks - thanks for all the back and forth - It did help solidify my thoughts about getting a sawstop.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

Old thread. With a few reservations; in my business (oil and gas), anyone who comes up with a better way to do things safely, freely shares this information. Without getting into a long diatribe, when safety becomes all about money, it irks me. The sawstop saga is a bit disturbing but there are plenty of people and companies to share the blame. The original inventor's approach was more about money than safety IMHO. A better approach likely would have resulted in most current companies offering similar technologies.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Old thread. With a few reservations; in my business (oil and gas), anyone who comes up with a better way to do things safely, freely shares this information. *Without getting into a long diatribe, when safety becomes all about money, it irks me. *The sawstop saga is a bit disturbing but there are plenty of people and companies to share the blame. The original inventor s approach was more about money than safety IMHO. A better approach likely would have resulted in most current companies offering similar technologies.
> 
> - Foghorn


That is a universal Myopic Financial policy; Stopsaw, Takata airbag recall, Boeing 737 MAX, our local gubbermint ignore propane and fire codes. At least not springing for Stopsaw probably won 't be fatal ;-) If I ever buy a new table saw it will be Stopsaw.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Any ideas on when another manufacturer will come out with similar technology that doesn't violate existing patients? The other path is when will the patient expire? I am also surprised that they haven't had the desire to license saw stop to others.


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## JimRochester (Dec 24, 2013)

> Any ideas on when another manufacturer will come out with similar technology that doesn t violate existing patients? The other path is when will the patient expire? I am also surprised that they haven t had the desire to license saw stop to others.
> 
> - controlfreak


They have offered the license however others have said the $$ was exorbitant. That's why the negative reaction.

I like my Sawstop. It saved my fingertip so I know it was worth the money. The man made a product. I can either buy the product or not. I don't see why it's his responsibility to give the technology away.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

If people based all purchases on that companies lawyers/owners actions in an attempt to make/protect money, we would all be walking around naked, homeless, and hungry.


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## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

As a dentist,I would only own a saw stop and no other brand, ever. No offense, but I don't buy into the complacency argument with having extra safety features. It really doesn't make any sense. I would group that argument into the same as "I don't wear seatbelt or have airbags in my car because having those extra safety features would encourage me to drive more recklessly or not pay attention to the road."


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> No offense, but I don't buy into the complacency argument with having extra safety features.


I have never bought into the 'complacency argument' either. If anything, the presence of that safety feature has made me more cautious than I was with my old Jet because I know that one slip-up is going to cost me a trip to a dealer, a cartridge and most likely a blade.

I was talking to another vendor at craft fair this past weekend. He told me he had not been able to do much in the shop for several weeks because of a tablesaw accident. He really messed up the thumb and index finger on his left hand … not completely severed, but still pretty ugly. He said his doctor/hospital bills are still coming in, but so far the total is over $5-thousand dollars. His old saw is listed on Craigslist, and he has a SawStop PCS on order.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I get that they can get a premium for the saw and the prohibitive license fee may just be cover to say that they are making it available to all.

Until something similar comes along I think it would be in my best interest to to move to a Saw Stop saw. I have an employee that amputated the ends of three fingers last month in an accident (planer) at home. Beyond the fact that it was a stupid mistake. He is in a lot of pain, will miss month(s) of work, his fingers and is at $28,000.00 in medical bills. On an ironic note I have a good friend that I related this story to and she said "yeah, that is what my son did too." I would have never believed I could know two people that would insert their fingers into a running planer but here I am.

I have the ability to pay for the saw and can only hope never detonate with my flesh. I won't live foolishly around the blade with any false sense of security. I take all tools very seriously.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> If people based all purchases on that companies lawyers/owners actions in an attempt to make/protect money, we would all be walking around naked, homeless, and hungry.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


We're headed there, involuntarily, pretty quick already and it's about to get much, much worse. Who wants to be told how much red meat they're allowed to eat? Better get ready for it.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

double post


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## Lou6 (Nov 23, 2020)

I have seen them in our HS Woodshop and I can say it is very unreliable. The controller is fussy and it seems as if dust contributes to the electronic malfunctioning of the starter. I personally like the UniSaw.


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