# Taking a turn



## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ok… so far you guys have helped me with making decisions on starting woodworking. Which tools to buy. Advice on what was supposed to be my first woodworking project (building a workstation out of my PM2000)....

Things have taken a turn. I all of a sudden realized that making my saw on wheels and rolling it up and down a ramp was a terrible idea. I also took another turn in my personally life and have decided that I'm not moving. Sooooooooo…. it turns out my first project is building a workshop. I had to share!!! I'm also still in the planning stages of the rest of it.










I just spent my weekend getting this going. Didn't quite finish the entire floating floor as I would have hoped. Honestly. I've NEVER built anything before. It's nothing special, but I'm proud of it. And I learned today that it is possible for your pain to hurt. Lol…

I'm going out of town next weekend but I will get started on the next stage in two weeks and I'm still a little vague on how I should go about the next stage. The building will be 16×24. I'm honestly thinking about building my trusses before my walls so I can streamline getting a roof on ASAP with the next upper layers not being treated wood. Thoughts?

I have other questions too!


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

from a building standpoint; there are so many questions.
what part of the world are you in ?
are the main joist/supports pressure treated?
how are the joists attached to the footers ?
do you have to have a permit to build a structure ?
the list of questions here are endless.
(but it is looking great so far).



















.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Ummmm are those 4×4s and 2×4s?? 
I applaud you for getting after it but please do some studying on basic framing. Floor joists should be 2×6 minimum, 2×4s can't handle the load. 
Are you doing this without a permit? If so are you in any sort of neighborhood? You can bank on somebody raining in your parade if the local building department catches wind. 
Good luck with it! One day at a time


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I don't need a permit where I live. (Chattanooga TN "area") The only thing the commissioners office told me was that I needed an electrical inspection once it was wired.

And yes. All lumber for floating floor is pretreated. The skids, the joists, and the plywood going on top of that. I'm not done with the framing either. I'm going to put 14.5 inch brackets staggered amongst 3 rows in between the 16 inch center. And you may think I'm nuts, but I used 2×4x16 pretreated lumber for the 24" skids. I used 6 carriage bolts on on each beam to hold 3 rows of lumber staggering the 16" and 8" boards to make it 24" across. I then also used 3 inch exterior deck screws along the beams for added support. I also am making the outside frame doubled. I was thinking that would add support far the walls that will sit on the outer frame.

As for the floor joist, yes. I used 2×4 instead of 2×6. With the brackets, the support should suffice I would hope. Let me know if I'm utterly retarded. I've never done anything like this before

I also have not attached the joists to the footers yet. Is there a preferred method? I've only been at it for two days. I didn't quite get as far as I wanted. Doing it solo with three little ones running around means I'll have to top of stage one throughout the work week.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Buy the trusses, don't try to make them. They will be properly engineered and assembled. You don't want the roof coming down on your head. And they can buy lumber cheaper than you, cut pieces with less waste, and assemble with jigs. It is worth the extra cost.


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

on your next trip to the Big Box Store, look in the book section
for a book on Building Sheds & Buildings.
building a structure of this magnitude with zero experience and plans
can lead you down a path of frustration you may not be able to get out of.
the book will cover just about anything you NEED to know to build a structure.
the first shop I built back in 1980 was about 24×30'. I built most of it alone,
including the roof trusses. I had a book to reference. (but I had a poured concrete slab).
it can be done if you take your time and have some sort of visual plans to go by.

.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm a jack of many trades and a master of none. But I can say that my one true strength is the ability to learn with a decent level of detail through self teaching. I definitely am putting a level of meticulous planning into what I am doing before I do it. I can't stand flying blind.

Are trusses truly better to buy preassembled? I was honestly thinking about building all my trusses next since they are easily moved and stored. I found what seems to be a sturdy, yet simple, design that I can make a quick template on my subfloor with random wood waste. That way when my walls go up, I can immediately do the trusses. I'll take a look at prebuilt ones.

I also have not completely decided on which direction I'm going on the door. Should I go to a salvage place and buy a big "normal door"?? Should I build a double door? Does either have pros and cons to n regards to keeping the building climate controlled?


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Your stick built trusses will be about as good as your foundation, and that's not saying much… We hate to see resources wasted, and the direction you're headed it won't be long before this "shop" has to be rebuilt. Get a book to reference. Salvage your 2×4s for the walls.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

+1 on the 2×4 floor, I just don't think that is a sound foundation. While you still have time I would repurpose the studs for, well studs. I would also place some metal over each support block to act as a barrier to termites. You are very low to the ground there and I would Probably use treated wood anywhere below the plywood. I would also decide if you ever want to add heat or air now so you have an opportunity to insulate while building.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I spoke to a few on site shed building contractors about my flooring design with the 2×4 (which everything is pretreated). Apparently when they took out the consideration for relative building codes on their area, they seemed to all say that the strength integrity with using 2×4s at 16' center with brackets every 3-4 feet should be alright. In addition, using the pretreated 3/4 plywood will also add strength integrity to the floor. From what I'm hearing from those who do on site shed building, I should be fine. I do appreciate the advise and concerns. It was enough to make me dig at it a little more, but I think I'll continue the floor as planned.

And most definitely… I will add more insulation now. That part honestly slipped my mind. Much easier to do that now than later.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

How is it anchored to mother earth? Is it just sitting on blocks, or anchored to poured piers? The wind can get under a raised structure like that, and move it enough for doors and windows not to work, or even more damage. And yes, sheds are built with 2×4 floors, but not being used for heavy cast iron machines like table saws and anything else in your future as the hobby expands. Run electrical under the floor for the table saw, along with dust collection duct. You want to minimize tripping hazzards.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Tellme
I'm a 30+ year contractor and yes 2×4 sub-deck is not the norm but by cutting the spans down 3-4" OC you should be fine ,you don't have to build or buy trusses you can stick frame it starting with a built-up ridge beam ,it's more time consuming and a little bit of a challenge for you to cut the properer angle and birds mouth but once you get one you will have a pattern for both sides assuming you get your ridge beam centered properly. All said and done if it were me I would use factory trusses just for the convenience and speed, The cost in my area for factory-made trusses is probably about 25-35% more than the material to stick build it so it depends on what your budget will take and if you want to gain the experience of building your own or stick building. 
You mentioned you were not sure which way you want the door to swing, if you have it swing in you will be using up space but that is the most typical way have exterior doors swing. If you haven't covered your floor yet you might think about running wiring for your table saw so you don't have to run a cord overhead or across the floor,usually I would suggest you run some ducting for dust collection too,but your floor is too close to the ground for that. 
It was suggested you get a book from the box store about how to build your shop but I've many of the books written about woodworking and construction can be way off base because the many of the people write them have not actually done what their writing about. I think if this old house has a video on the subject Tommy Silva is one the best carpenter/contractors out there that really knows what he's talking about.
Good luck with your build, your welcome to PM me if you feel I can help with questions.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm totally going to build my trusses. Just not quite clear on every detail yet. But I'm thinking a simple rafter design with the birds mouth and ridge beam. I'm thinking 3 inch pitch with 4 inch overhang. I suppose after the course of this thread I should go with 2×6 for the rafters. Lol. Little vague on where I should put the OC (considering either 16 or 24).... I am planning to have a second 2×4 along the top of the walls to distribute the weight where centering the rafters in line with the wall joists isn't so detrimental. My original plan for my walls is 2×4x8 nontreated on 16 OC.

Thoughts?


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I'd strongly recommend 9 or 10ft walls, You'll thank me soon enough


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It depends on the snow load and type of roofing you have in mind,but if in doubt go 16" on center 2×6, if you don't have much snow go with what's called 4n 12 pitch, a 4" of drop for every foot of run. there are a couple of videos out there on how to build trusses , here's one.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

This video is better.


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## AndyJ1s (Jan 26, 2019)

2×4s on 16 inch centers with ~5 foot spans might be okay for a 12×12 garden shed.

I wouldn't trust it for a 16×24 foot building, housing heavy machines, lumber, benches etc. It may not fail, but it will be awful spongy, and no longer flat when you have your machinery, benches, and lumber in there.

So the builders of garden sheds said you should be OK with 2×4 joists on 16" centers, spanning 3 to 4 foot between beams. But it looks like yours are spanning closer to 5 feet between beams. Thus, the joist spans are 125% over even builders of garden sheds standards. Therefore, you also have fewer than specified beams to support those overloaded joists. And they appear to be spanning a similarly long 5 feet?

I'm also concerned that you don't have footings directly under the rim joists at ends of the floor joists. Therefore, the walls will be transferring the entire weight of walls and roof (in other words, most of the weight of the structure), to the cantilevered ends of those 2×4 floor joists, back to the beams and footings. Again, this is probably OK for a garden shed with less than half the square footage of your building, but this ain't no garden shed.

How are the tripled 2×4 beams anchored to the footings, into the ground? A 16×24' building can catch a lot of wind. I hope there is more than gravity holding it down, or at least on top of its footings.

How deep is your frost line, and do the footings exceed that depth?

You need more than "the support should suffice I would hope" to ensure the integrity of the building, and the safety of its contents and occupants.

Keep us posted!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I haven't added the staggered brackets between the joist yet. Yes. The beams are 4 feet apart.

No. The brackets that I will place between the joists are not installed yet. It will naturally have a staggered pattern.

A1 Jim has already walked me through my issue with anchoring my floor into "Mother Earth"… so there is a solution that will be implemented for that. With that solution also solves the concern with the elevated framing edge bearing the weight of the walls. Those will have notched 4×4s supporting it concreted in 2 feet into the ground.

Everyone here is awesome and the input is being taken into account. We almost never see snow here… and what do you mean by "where's the frost line?"

Keep it coming guys. I love this place. Lol


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I doubt that this would pass code in my city for a deck much less a building of that size. If you try to lookup maximum spans for floor joists, I will be willing to bet that you won't find any specs for 2×4's because no one does that on anything but a garden shed, which this isn't. Also, I've never seen a pier and beam foundation that didn't have piers and beams under/along the outside where the wall (and the roof) is going to be transferring all of its weight. Just google images of pier and beam foundations and you will see what I mean. You are basically going to be putting your walls and roof on a short diving board.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ok. After some digging and consideration of what everyone was saying here, I am making some adjustments on floor before proceeding.

1) I am placing a 5th beam so that the ends of my floor frame will sit directly on the beam at the ends to support the weight of the roof and walls. That also puts my beams 4 feet intervals

2) I am raising my structure another 4 inches by placing another concrete block on all of my pads. This will get my low end off the ground.

3) My frost line is considered 12 inches deep. So I am placing 4×4s concreted in at each end of all beams I am doing 6 feet apart on the front and back support beams and 8 feet apart on the 3 middle beams. The area I live in has very mild winters and snow is a very rare commodity.

4) I am also placing a moisture barrier under my floor frame. And just below my 3/4 plywood… and sorry. I am keeping the 2×4 design. The brackets I put in really added strength and I believe that will be ok.

Any other thoughts? I should have this all completed before the weekend once my buddy brings his tractor and auger attachment over.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I'm totally going to build my trusses. Just not quite clear on every detail yet. But I'm thinking a simple rafter design with the birds mouth and ridge beam. I'm thinking 3 inch pitch with 4 inch overhang. I suppose after the course of this thread I should go with 2×6 for the rafters. Lol. Little vague on where I should put the OC (considering either 16 or 24).... I am planning to have a second 2×4 along the top of the walls to distribute the weight where centering the rafters in line with the wall joists isn't so detrimental. My original plan for my walls is 2×4x8 nontreated on 16 OC.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> - TellMePlease


Roof support isn't a kind of whatever thing, it's science, especially if you live where the snow flies. Snow load on a roof of poor design is a collapsed building. If you lack the experience to go right at it. I would always suggest you contact the local for such things, and turn over all or part of the construction.

If that won't work, definitely go with trusses, and still go to the local lumberyard with truss making capability, and if nothing else purchase one Gable end, and one truss they suggest you use for the size building you are making. Once you have the "layout" you can reproduce them. Only if you make exact copies will they work though, slight changes will at bare minimum give you a wonky looking roof, at worst an unsafe one.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I don't have snow where I live. I am going for the 2×6 on 16 OC with 1/2 ply. I will line them up with the wall joists. Also going for the 4/12 pitch. I spoke to one of my buddies with years of construction experience who said everything you all have. I won't cut corners.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

you're saying wall joists, do you mean studs? 
so let me get this straight, your screen name is tellmeplease, you ask for advice, get it, don't like it so continue with most of your original plan. 
I have no idea what you think 4×4s and an auger are going to contribute to your design.
And to top it off (literally) you're going to build trusses out of 2×6s to go over your 2×4 floor?
The 2×6s should be the floor structure and use the 2×4s for trusses.

Good luck with it, I wish you the best


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

This whole thing sounds like a comedy. When you get done, you are going to flip the building over so you have a solid floor? With properly engineered and built trusses, 2×4's are used for trusses. With a high wall on one side, you could use a shed roof and not need trusses.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Cool. 2×4s it is for trusses. Maybe the idea of buying one as a template to copy is a good way to go.

And what am I missing? I thought many of the concerns was with the strength of the foundation and it being anchored. So I'm digging post holes to concrete in 4×4 posts below the frost line placed at 4 foot intervals with beams placed under the outer frame on each long side of the building (so no overhang) in order to help support the weight of the structure.

I kept the idea of the 2×4s because the damage is done and this is on a budget. I already cut the braces between the joists. So I am working with using the 2×4s as the floor frame. Thats really the only thing that I've not changed. Is that really killing everything about what's coming next for this?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

2×4 for PROPERLY DESIGNED TRUSSES. with tight fitting joints and properly installed fasteners. Not plates and roofing nails.


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## AndyJ1s (Jan 26, 2019)

> snip…
> 
> We almost never see snow here… and what do you mean by "where's the frost line?"
> 
> ...


The "frost line" is the bottom of the depth of soil that freezes and thaws with the seasons. Depending on climate, it could be anywhere from the surface (tropical climates that never freeze) to 8 feet or more in northern climates. It does not necessarily have to do with snowfall, but how cold it gets for extended periods, over many years (e.g. the life of buildings).

Soil expands and contracts when it freezes, by varying amounts based on moisture content. If your footings don't extend to below the frost line, they will heave and subside in winter and summer. And the footings nearer the perimeter will (eventually) have more moisture than the center ones, which will cause the floor structure to no longer be flat, and if frost heave is excessive, can structurally damage the building.

The frost line is also typically below where the moisture content varies substantially with seasons. So heaving and subsiding with the seasons due to moisture, regardless of temperature, is also minimized.

A local foundation company can tell you how deep the frost line is for your area. This is one of those things for which municipal inspections check that really do matter. Just because you are outside their jurisdiction does not mean they cannot provide meaningful advice, if they are willing. Buying lunch for an inspector can yield a lot of helpful information, even if you don't "have to" follow it.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

> snip…
> 
> We almost never see snow here… and what do you mean by "where's the frost line?"
> 
> ...


I looked that up. It's 12 inches down where I live


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm not meaning this mean but it sounds like you've made up your mind to do this YOUR way…. which may work but you've got enough guys that know what they are talking about throwing up red flags and I don't think you are listening. You can do it your way and I suspect it will work… for a while. After bugs, pressure and age get to your floor joists they will bend and bow. The floor with b uneven and it will be a costly and very time consuming repair. I'm a tightwad and I've had to learn the hard way to try to do things correctly once instead of going back and redoing the work later on. I speak from experience when I tell you that it'll cost you much more time and money later than to redesign and over build now. I personally recommend you pull the floor up and pour a concrete slab and use the former joists as wall studs, providing you don't want to do that then put more runners under the floor so the span is 2 ft instead of 4ft and go around and put a bunch of supports all along the outside edge. 
I also recommend researching and building your own trusses and doing 10ft walls if working from heights doesn't bother u
On the up side anything you do will b better than this guy: https://www.thehulltruth.com/dockside-chat/502934-worst-diy-shed-ever-built.html


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

Your building is only going to be as strong as your weakest link, unfortunately in your case your weakest link is the base holding everything else up. Engineered truss rafters distribute the entire roof load to the outer walls. The design isn't to look cool or to provide storage. They follow a specific mathematical formula. The rafters are heavy in themselves, now add OSB or plywood roofing, then felt paper, then shingles. You get the picture, your roof now weighs a LOT! Then it rains and you add more wight, that rain freezes, or it turns to snow. Now your rafters are holding up a few tons of weight. Don't forget this is now transferred down to your 2×4 base on the outer walls which will probably give out well before your roof caves in. My brother is the general manager for a truss plant and my sister-in-law is a truss engineer so I know a little about trusses. I also built over 100 houses in my day. Just because it doesn't have to get inspected or meet codes, doesn't give you a license to be careless. Throwing away a few hundred dollars now converting your floor system over to walls or even trusses will seem really cheap compared to throwing away tens of thousands of dollars later when everything gets scrapped. Adding electricity, plumbing, and a climate control system may change the classification of this shed to a dwelling.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Chattanooga TN only gets 2'' of snow per year. If budget is tight I'd build my own. I have build my own but not 16 wide. Mine were only 9' and have had 30 '' of snow on them.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ok. If I give in and build the floor frame out of 2×6 pretreated wood… can I salvage my beams and what I was going to do for anchors? Or do I have to start from scratch there too?


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Buy the trusses, don t try to make them. They will be properly engineered and assembled. You don t want the roof coming down on your head. And they can buy lumber cheaper than you, cut pieces with less waste, and assemble with jigs. It is worth the extra cost.
> 
> - ibewjon


Here in Maine we can get a bad snow load sometimes. You have to have a steep pitch to have an open concept to be safe…. But it you use factory made trusses you can span a large area with with a standeard 5/12 pitch. My house is made that way. The more weight you put on them the more they compress and drive the load to the walls.

Ditto on that floor too. Even when building an 8'-12' shed you use 2×6's. I've never seen a 2×4 floor before.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I think you can re-purpose almost 100% of your materials, except the nails. Take it apart carefully. Don't forget that you will have projects down the road to use these materials on also. If you used 2×4's for blocking to hold the floor joists a uniform distance apart I don't see why you couldn't use them with 2×6 joists. As for the rafters, I don't see why you can't build them yourself. Just have a professional engineer provide the design. Build a pattern on the floor and trace lines with a Sharpie (or use a chalk line). Screw down scraps of wood at strategic places like corners and intersections to aid in repeatability efficiency. When building rafters I personally find it better to use pieces of plywood cut to the correct size and shape and glued and nailed in place for connectors instead of the hammer in place metal plates with the teeth on them. As someone stated above it's likely that you can buy them pre-built for less money than you can make them for. I'm glad to see that you are reconsidering the 2×4 joists. I think that we have all learned this the hard way; cheaper up front is almost always more expensive in the end.

One other thing to note - I built an 8' x 12' shed about 4 years ago to get some things out of my shop that are seldom used. I did like you did and just raised it up of the ground and didn't put any gravel or materials for moisture control and drainage underneath it (and I live in a semi-dry area with low humidity in TX). I used 3/4 T & G OSB flooring and even sealed the underside before I put it down. After 2 years the floor was spongy and had mold coming through it from underneath. I had sealed the base up tight to keep rodents and critters out. I ended up placing vents all around in the base and that solved the issue by allowing it to breath. Of course I had to replace a large chunk of the floor first. The worst part was that I knew better! Make sure you have airflow underneath to keep it dry. Good luck. Keep posting pictures of your progress and keep asking questions.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

So do I need to rethink my beams as well? Think since I'm using 2×6 for floor joists that 4 beams will suffice? Think I should use my 4×4s still as anchor post? Or do I need to redo the whole thing?

And Im thinking the same for blocking the 2×6 floor. The 2×4 frame I have can literally be cut in half long ways to produce a 8ft high wall. So there. I have two of my 16ft long walls frames completed and one of the walls that go beside the front door done. LOL.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Whatever you do with the beams, I would make sure the outside beams and piers are directly under where the wall will rest. That's where all of the weight from walls and roof will sit and it has to be rock solid and anchored to the ground so you want the weight transfer straight down into the piers.

If it was mine, I would not simply cut your 16' 2×4s in half. I would want the walls 9 or 10 feet high to have just a little extra headroom. If you still plan to make your own trusses, save them for that.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

My math says if you'd use concrete and do 5inches thick then you'd have just under 6 yards of concrete. I'm not sure about your area but that amounts to under $700 on my area… along with another few hundred for someone to pour and finish it (providing u do the prep work). How much are u spending on treated 2×6s? If it's even close I highly suggest concrete.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Sorry. Already bought the 2×6s… should I opt in or out for for the face mount joist hangers? Or the 4inch deck screws will do?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ok. So I think I've decided to roll with the QuikTubes, thinking 10 inch diameter. There was this one guy who did it like this: 



But I'm not banking on that being good enough. If it is, that would save quite a bit…. It also seems that 3 beams is enough to support a building of that size spacing the piers in 6ft intervals, but I have a few questions.

First, do these concrete piers need to have a post above them to connect at a 90 degree angle to the beams? Or is it alright to place the beams directly on the pier?

Next, What wood to concrete anchoring should I use? I am trying to cut costs as much as possible now more than ever considering the set back. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Simpson-Strong-Tie-4-in-x-4-in-G90-Galvanized-Wood-to-Wood-Cap/1002707316 
I was considering these since it accommodates the post or beam. I seen these get put into the concrete before it hardened. This suffice? Cheaper way?

Third, will be 3 2×4s be sufficient enough for this project? If so, I'm considering running all 4 beams and doing 8 ft between piers on the middle two since they will not be bearing the weight of roof and ceiling. Or is mandatory to 4×4 or 6×6 beams?


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

well, you said right from the git-go that you are a novice at woodworking.
so, we can't hold that against you.

my very personal advice is to get a set of plans drawn up and signed off
by a licensed engineer, builder, architect, or who ever you can find that
can keep you safe in your build and protect your finances to keep you from
going bust by having to tear the structure down and start all over.
take the time and effort you have invested and put it in a bucket and chalk it up to experience.
assemble all the wood into a pile and cover it with a tarp so you can use it later on.
you are floundering and close to drowning - this is a life ring - grab it.

all the best and hope you make sound financial decisions.

.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

There are pieces of steel designed to be placed in the wet concrete when you pour piers. The wood framing cannects to these. Ask for them at a big box stores, such as home depot or Lowe's. I don't think Menards is in your area yet.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Even with pressure treated beams, it is generally best to not have the wood sitting directly on the concrete piers, though it is often done. Concrete can wick moisture up into the wood which can tend to make the wood rot a little faster. Checkout the various Simpson's strong tie wood to concrete base anchors or something similar.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I chose to use this. Can I turn them to use the beams and skip the post? Other thing I my beams are 4.5 inches thick with the three boards together. Don't see one that has those measurements


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I assume you mean can you just rest the beam on the strong tie instead of attaching a post with a beam resting on it? I don't see why not.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

> I assume you mean can you just rest the beam on the strong tie instead of attaching a post with a beam resting on it? I don t see why not.
> 
> - Lazyman


Yup. That's exactly what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Thank everyone for their help. This is quite the learning experience. I'm not one to give up so easily. Moving forward, I'm just going to run any ideas of materials, plans, and whatnots by everyone here before I act.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> I chose to use this. Can I turn them to use the beams and skip the post? Other thing I my beams are 4.5 inches thick with the three boards together. Don't see one that has those measurements
> 
> - TellMePlease


Not sure what your question is, but, if you are using concrete poured in Sonotubes, you would embed the bottom end of the Simpson ties, into the concrete. Care will need to be taken, to make sure the bearing end of each tie, is level to the others.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Well… the flipping auger wouldn't go deeper than 9 inches in a couple of spots and 4 inches in others. Lame.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

I think you need to make the auger go deeper…


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Lol. This sucks.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Yup. He drilled for a hour in one spot trying to get the auger deep enough to catch. Only made it 8 inches and then tried a few more spots. No go.

My idea now is just to make a cinder block foundation, drive some rebars 6-12 inches (however far they will go) every other block and fill them with concrete. I will either just run them straight down each beam, or maybe around the perimeter where the walls bare weight and just use the all the other concrete pads to support the middle beams. I'm honestly about over it and couldn't care less whether that's good enough or not. I'm ready to move on


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

What's the problem with the auger? Is it the auger or the ground? I have a buddy that has an auger like that mounted on the 3 point mechanism but it just uses gravity and not a hydraulics to push it down. We put up about 400 feet of fence at his place and I honestly thought it would have been easier to drill the holes by hand. It needs downward pressure to get it started but then it also needs to be free to auger into the soil. If there is anything holding it back (upward) it just spins and will never get a good bite. Aren't these sort of projects fun? I would hire a contractor to put in the foundation or a concrete slab.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

If hitting solid rock, rent a hammer drill with a large, say 1" bit. Drill deep holes, and use epoxy or hydraulic cement to anchor re bar into rock. Pour piers over rebar.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Maybe I'll just anchor it like they do with mobile homes. Slab to pricey in my area. And contractors are so busy that I can't get most to even call me back.

And yes… believe it or not this is kinda fun. Just starting to get frustrating. I'm ready to get going. I live in a mobile home. Honestly, if I get winds strong enough to blow down this workshop… that will be the least of my problems.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Is there a lot of rock in the top soil or a really shallow soil profile? I wonder if the cutters on the auger were dull? I've read that running too fast can be a problem too.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Well.. I just had a concrete referral call me back. If I do the prep and frame work for the slab and all they got to do is pour and level it… $1500. Considering at that point I don't have to insulate or frame a floor, that sounds reasonable to me.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Does that include the redi mix? Or is that labor to pour and finish, no material included?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

That includes the concrete. I just got to remove organic, level, and build the frame.

If I'm missing something, let me know


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

C'mon man 
If you're going to do that, after this whole debacle of a thread I hope you've learned to spend a little time on research.
A slab is not just concrete on the ground, you'll need to dig footers around the perimeter and propery install rebar and rewire. Then you'll have something to be proud of.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Well… I was going to dig out the outsides to be a lower trench and try either 1 ft or 1.5 ft rebar into the ground around the border. Don't know how far down they will go. I do know that concrete pads have footers too. Just might not get to the frost line considering the soil.

I still don't know what remix is

Also to mention, I just landed this and am still looking into it. I am at work and just spoke to a concrete guy a few hours ago. I did vaguely hear him mentioning something about metal included.


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

you don't drive rebar in the ground you dig the footer around the perimeter and the rebar runs around the trench as you call it. It sits on little stands called chairs, they hold it up off the bottom. All the steel gets tied together with wire. The guy who will pour it will probably tell you what you need to do. Do your own homework too but listen to him


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Most definitely. He has been the most reasonable guy I spoke to about doing this. Everyone else (whenever I could get an answer back) was 2500-3500 to do this. So that's why I didn't do this to begin with. I told him that I would be sending him pics and calling him woth where I'm at before he comes over to make sure it's good.

He did say a 4in should do, but any more than that and I would just pay additional concrete. I'm thinking about 5 inch… but the footers need to be accounted for as well, correct?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

These?









And FYI: this Forum is my research go to.

I was telling my kids to clean up their mess the other day and grinding my teeth as I watched them do the craziest annoying things to get it done. It was frustrating. Then it dawned on me….

I'm pretty sure I do that to many of you.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

REDI MIX. Concrete that is delivered in a mixing truck ready to pour. Not the stuff that comes dry in a bag.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Yeah… he supplies that


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Yes those are chairs, they used to have bent wire one but maybe not anymore 
Absolutely no reason to go thicker than 4"


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Is wire mesh a must?

My concrete guy also told me gravel not too important… I could lay a little if I wanted. Should I go for that as well?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ok. When I first spoke with my concrete guy, I told him that I needed a slab foundation for a 16×24 outdoor workshop I was building. I told him I wouldn't mind forming it and he quoted me for 5 tons of cement and finish (4.75 needed for simple slab odor 16×24 dimensions) Later when I called him asking about footers he said he thought I only wanted a slab and that what I was mentioning was for a house foundation. He said it's all about how far I want to take it and gave me instructions to do what I brought up which included running two #4 rebars around a 12' wide 6' deep (which I now know I need to curve the corners and overlap 18'-24' between rebars). But again, I initially told him my plans and he assumed I just wanted floating slab.

My neighbor just came over today as I was cleaning up my failures, salvaging my lumber, and loading up my returns of material for refunds. I told him what I was doing and asked him if he could help me bend the rebars for the footers since he is a metal worker in his garage. he seemed to know a lot about this and the soil for my area (which I will send you a pic of a dig hole tomorrow fix). He said I don't need footers. For what I'm doing. He said that if anything, buy some top soil and compact it to lay a pad as my grade raised a about 3 inches to make sure I don't have any water issues. Said I could do all gravel but dirt is cheaper, then 2 inches of gravel compacted, and then Build a simple 4" frame sitting on my gravel with using mesh and I won't have any problems since our soil is so full of chert, and movement and expansion aren't as much of an issue. He said that only if I was putting tractor, cars, etc would this even be an issue. Apparently the same concrete contractor I am getting to do the job is also a friend of his. He actually said his name before I did. I tried calling the contractor today but no luck reaching him.

I also then started researching this on the internet and many places seemed to state that buildings 400 square feet or under do not require footings (even by the "code until 2003 and still is that way in some places") my building will be 384 square feet.

Thoughts?


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

now you can sit at your desk (kitchen table) and draft up a design
for the building structure itself. you still need sill plate anchors for
when the slab is poured. strongly suggest many sticks of #5 rebar & 6" mesh
where you think you will ever have a double door. you never know when/if
you will make a rollup garage door to drive vehicles through. you can add reinforcement
now with very little cost vs later - after the slab is poured.
there is still so much to take into consideration before you pour a slab of any kind.
(my shop slab was 6" thick with 12" deep footers on compacted red clay & 1" gravel 
and it still cracked 2 years later).
looking forward to following your journey in this project. (slow down - take a breath).
again - wishing you all the luck in the world !!

.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

You may sell the place some day, or decide you want to put a tractor or something in it at one point. I would plan for the future instead of today.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

The first rule of concrete it that it cracks. The mesh and rebar keep the cracks from separating. Another rule is that topsoil makes a terrible base for concrete. It is soft and does not stay compacted, causing the concrete to sink unevenly. As it sinks, the mesh will bend, allowing the concrete to sink further. You must use compacted stone for a base. I have seen compacted sand for a base, and believe it or not, the ants carry it out from under the concrete, causing more failures.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Ive got remesh sheets lined up with 6×6 grid I've already lined up crush and run for gravel and will compact both the topsoil and gravel before pouring. I've also got 22 anchor bolts with hook at the bottom. My frame will be 8ft and 16ft 2×4 on the long side and simply a 16 ft on the short sides. So I figured I need 22 bolts. (16ft walls where I plan to put bolts @: 1, 5.5, 10, 15 foot marks so they are within one foot from the end of the stud. Then centered the rest within 5 ft intervals. On the 24ft walls. Using same intervals on back wall with no door on the 16 ft. Then figured I'd place a bolt at the 17, 20, and 23 mark for the 8ft 2×4 finishing the wall. For the side with door… figure each side of door will be approximately 10ft. So: 1, 5, 9 ft marks on each side from the ends. Single plate on the floor pretreated and double plate on the top. 2×4x10 for studs. R13 for the insulation. 1/2 OSB for interior walls (probably will wait time insulate and put up interior walls after roof). Going to co cheap 3/8 T1-11 paneling for exterior for now (can change down the road.

That sufficient design for the walls? Only thing I may change is back wall using 12ft studs if I desire to go with single slope roof


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Topsoil is bad advice! If I were you, the bare minimum I would do, would be to remove the topsoil, go rent a platform tamp & packdown to subsoil, then bring in some 2RC gravel, tamp again, form and pour. The slab will still crack, even with mesh! So, get some zip strips to get some controlled cracks.

This is a large slab, and you need to have a qualified person help you plan. From the bit you posted from the cement finisher, you might wan to have him review your site and help you formulate your plans. But RUN from anyone that says place topsoil for fill. Also, the rebar needs bent cold and not heated with a torch (that removes the strength).


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

When you say zip strips, do you mean controlled joints? Where you place a straight line on the cement to control cracks?

Also… what about expansion joint strips to place under my walls. This a good idea?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Hmmm.

2×8 7/16 inch OSB is $17

2×4 7/16 inch OSB is $5.50

Any reason not to go for 4 ft plywood? I could use on roof and interior walls?


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Zip strips will give you a controlled crack. Most redi-mix suppliers also supply these, and you'll want one 1-1/2" wide (your cement finisher should also know what these are and if he doesn't RUN).

I do not know what you are referring to about expansion joint strips, can you clarify?

I would strongly emphasize that you need someone that is familiar with concrete pad construction to visit in person and help you. Some of us here have done this professionally (I have), yet I don't comprehend some of what you are stating. This might be nothing more than using the wrong word/description, but I don't want to see you spend hard earned dollars and then have to rebuild/redo!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

The expansion joints I'm talking of are used for either the concrete edge against another edge (like concrete laid next to brick wall) or you use between where the wall frame (the plate that uses the anchor bolts) meets the slab. The "zip strips" I've heard of as control joints. It's simply a line put in the slab (in my case right down the middle) that has to be 1/4 of the thickness of the slab which my slab will be 4"


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## Peteybadboy (Jan 23, 2013)

This reminds me of me when I was just married. 27. I build a deck off the 2nd floor by reading a book. It's still there because I over engineered . My advice, if you want it, listen to these guys, you have great help here. Build it strong so I will last.

My father is an engineer, so he told me about soil, freeze and thaw, snow load, water (is a killer btw) . I read every post, you are getting great advice.

Please send progress pics.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I do think everyone's advise is sound. I've taken apart everything I have done, stacked and sorted it. I wil do 10ft walls instead of 8ft. I have salvaged my 16ft 2×4s and am saving them for my roof. My lack of knowledge and experience in this has cost me more time and money than I care to think about. Even so I plan to move forward. There is a very real concern right now with the forecast of cost on this. To be quite frank, with the money lost and the project now being substantially more than originally anticipated, if the concrete guy says that it should be fine without the footers, I'm probably going to skip them. $500 additional cost for the footers on top of the $500 wasted and the additional $1000 cost to do a slab relative to my original stupid plan. it's becoming a bit more than i was ready to do at this time. I've also even considered shrinking the plan to a smaller space as to lower the material costs. However at this point, it almost doesn't seem to have a good trade off. Not to mention the $4k I just dropped on the woodworking tools to get going.

I plan on the zip strips, 2 inch CR compacted, and mesh. If he says I do need the footers, then I will simply get it done and cover my salvaged lumber in plastic and finish when the time allows. I do understand the importance of durability, but this was initially intended for me to simply have a place to begin a hobby.

All and all this has been a very big learning experience and I appreciate the time and advice everyone has given me.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Well. I just spoke to concrete guy. We went over all of my questions. All and all. Do the footers. In some ways he can save me some material costs. Considering everything, the footers now only add $200 bucks roughly. So I'm doing the footers.

Everything is cleaned up in my yard, my slab prep is clear. The materials were just ordered. Next time I post will be when I have the form finished. Thanks to all.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Without making an engineered truss I am not sure 2×4 rafters are going to be enough for a roof.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I can say that after this foundation, it seems the roof is my next big planning stage. I honestly don't know which direction I am going. I'm open to suggestions or ideas. Of course simplicity and costs are the key factors I want to go for.

Guess it would be nice to have my game plan plenty of time beforehand so I don't stall anymore like this

I was thinking about this:


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I used engineered I-Beams for a shop I built my dad. 
I made the front wall taller and sloped the roof down at the back.
But you could still run a ridge beam. Thing is they're engineered for the loads you need.
Not that expensive, compared to labor of building your own trusses.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I looked. I don't see the beams available in my area. I did find this though:

https://myoutdoorplans.com/shed/16x24-gable-shed-roof-plans/

Says 24" OC. This work?


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Unless you have someone that has framed a roof/cut out rafters or knows how to build trusses, you're better off going to your local lumber yard, tell them the size of the building, pitch desired and use, and they dan design/build your trusses. You might be surprised how inexpensive trusses are, and you can handle the install.

Spacing is determined by code, which is determined by use (at least in PA). Speaking of which, have you obtained a building permit? If not, you should inquire if you need one (municipal government, where you live, will tell you).


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Where I live the only thing that is required for me to do is have an electrical inspection after it's wired. And yes.. I spoke up the ladder in the office to make sure I was being told correctly. It would appear their only code here is Get R Done and don't let it catch fire.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

As you are learning, when you hire a professional, you are paying for labor, but you are also getting the knowledge and experience to do it once, do it right, and not do it over. The shed style roof, one angle, allows for a simple design, and less cutting. You would not be able to use the I joists pictured above because the lower edge can not be cut to form a birdsmouth to sit on the wall. You will need standard 2 x lumber, sized for the span. If you undersize it, the roof will sag. Purchased trusses may be the least expensive option.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I am prospecting trusses in my area now.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> You would not be able to use the I joists pictured above because the lower edge can not be cut to form a birdsmouth to sit on the wall.
> 
> - ibewjon


I cut full length wedges out of a 2×6 that sat on the top plate.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Wedges would work


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

This truss designer plug-in for Sketchup is pretty cool. It is not an engineering tool, you will still need some help verifying that the trusses are strong enough, but a pretty cool tool for laying them out. The 30 day trial might be enough to layout the relatively simple ones needed for your workshop.

EDIT: This Truss designer on the Medeek website might be even better. It will supposedly do snow and wind analysis. It haven't read the disclaimers but it is probably better than just winging it.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

My hands hurt. Lol 3/4 done. Getting there.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Now I just got to remove turf and level before laying gravel


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Thank god my wife helped.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

You are going to remove the turf and any organic matter, before you place the gravel? If not, it will rot/decay under the slab, cause hollows and the cracks & settling of portions of the concrete.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I said that above. Next is to remove turf. That will get done tomorrow. You can see spots where we got a jump start


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Roots also.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Yup


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Weeeee!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

So I was going to get started on grabbing some gravel. There's two close by hardware stores. The one open doesn't have Crusher Run, but it has 1/2 inch lime stone. It's also cheaper. So my questions are this:

1) can I use this for grading for my slab? Does it compact?

2) could I even use a mix of both? Maybe use the limestone to level out my base? And then use a level of crusher run over it?

3) or should I just be patient and use all Crusher run?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Nevermind. I'll just use all Crusher run.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Call your redi-mix supplier: many of them supply sub-base material and deliver it in their trucks. Drive right up to the slab and pour it out of the truck, making it easy-peasy. Here in PA, gravel bought that way is the cheapest, as well as easiest on your back.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

As weird as this is… my ace hardware sells crusher run by the scoop for $23.99. It is equivalent to 3/4 ton. I have to pick it up myself

The local gravel supplier sells crusher run for $43 on ton and delivery is $75 for whatever I order. Riddle me that Batman!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I do have a question though considering this is my first rodeo. How do I go about this next part. Should I go ahead and run a string level? Or maybe get first few loads of gravel and eyeball it mostly. Then run a string and fill in the last spots? Can someone walk me through it?


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

We want you to have a dependable shop to build something from wood! Your concrete guy should be telling you this stuff or just doing it for you bud. You'll pay peanuts compared to what you get!


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> I do have a question though considering this is my first rodeo. How do I go about this next part. Should I go ahead and run a string level? Or maybe get first few loads of gravel and eyeball it mostly. Then run a string and fill in the last spots? Can someone walk me through it?
> 
> - TellMePlease


You level the outside forms and run a string from side to side. If you want a 5" slab, then fill to within 4", run your tamper and the gravel will cmpress an inch. For a tamper, go to your local tool rental store and rent a platform (plate) tamper and not a jumping jack.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Tada!!!!

Renting the plate compactor tomorrow


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

There. Tuesday concrete guy coming to pour. I'm hyped.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I'm no concrete guy, in fact I have never actually poured a slab (helped level a few)
shouldn't the wire mesh be off the ground, so that when you pour it sits in the middle of the slab?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Cocrete guy said don't worry about buying the seats. He said they will float it and the rebar when they pour


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

You're light on the mesh, and the rebar should be tie-wired to the mesh. Don't depend on your cement finisher - get some bricks, crack them in half and place under the mesh to hold it up. And addmore mesh!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Light on the mesh? I don't have it all spread out. I do have ties…. but (12) 4×7 sheets should have it covered? Please inform me what I am missing. I'm not that bright with stuff like this….

And doesn't the rebar go into the footer? I didn't think I was supposed to tie it to mesh… I also have 2 Inch concrete pads I could place at intervals to hold up the mesh if you think I need to


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Mesh should be from form to form, starting about 2" in from the form. Overlap mesh one square and wire together so it doesn't move. Crack the 2×2 pads into small parts - you don't want anything larger than half a brick. How much rebar do you have? If only enough for the perimeter, then place it there.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

> Mesh should be from form to form, starting about 2" in from the form. Overlap mesh one square and wire together so it doesn t move. Crack the 2×2 pads into small parts - you don t want anything larger than half a brick. How much rebar do you have? If only enough for the perimeter, then place it there.
> 
> - AMZ


Gotcha. These pads are 2×4x8. So I suppose I could get quite a few pieces from the 4 I got. I will need two more sheets of mesh… and I got 8-20" rebar and 2-10" Rebar to account for the overlap. Enough for the perimeter. Thanks! I also got my anchors. If I need anything else, let me know


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> Mesh should be from form to form, starting about 2" in from the form. Overlap mesh one square and wire together so it doesn t move. Crack the 2×2 pads into small parts - you don t want anything larger than half a brick. How much rebar do you have? If only enough for the perimeter, then place it there.
> 
> Also, check with the cement finisher to make sure he is finishing the concrete to what you want: floated, broomed or whatever (this is a personal decision for you, discuss with him a day before the pour, so he is prepared). Also ask him if he will gave helpers to place and level the concrete or if that is your responsibility.
> 
> ...


Are you placing the anchors in the concrete? If so post a picture of the anchor - you want to make sure the anchor type is for a concrete slab.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)




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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> - TellMePlease


You're good with those.


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

How far down I put them?


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Woot woot. Thanks to all!


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

Looking good! Don't be bashful to ask opinions!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

I bought more mesh. Tied them together. Apparently I accidentally made a 5' slab instead of 4…. the only thing I really didn't like, I feel like they could have floated mesh a little better. But it's done.

I also see the point of seats. They float it and then step on it to work the mud… doesn't that just push it back down? But again…. it's done.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> I bought more mesh. Tied them together. Apparently I accidentally made a 5' slab instead of 4…. the only thing I really didn't like, I feel like they could have floated mesh a little better. But it's done.
> 
> I also see the point of seats. They float it and then step on it to work the mud… doesn't that just push it back down? But again…. it's done.
> 
> - TellMePlease


Exactly why you place it on seats/broken bricks. Cement finishers do not like it raised, as it makes it difficult to walk on while pouring. Good cement finishers have a hook with them and pull the mesh up as they go, but you don't want to take chances when you're in this deep!


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

You guys have been more than great. Every bit of advice whether it's what I wanted to hear or not, whether I followed it or not, helped me get to this today. It may not be perfect…but!!!!....

Anything has got to be better than


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## TellMePlease (Jun 26, 2020)

Coming along


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)




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