# Gripper push block system on textured surfaces



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

I have a Skilsaw 3410-02 with a heavily textured cast-aluminum top. Does anyone have experience with using a Gripper push block on this kind of surface? I am thinking it will not glide well, possibly be binding. I don't want to invest in such an expensive system if it won't work on this kind of table saw top.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Put some wax on the top.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Put some wax on the top.
> 
> - CharlesA


Thanks for the suggestion, Charles. I've been reluctant to wax the top because of it's sandpaper-like surface texture. I was hoping more for first-hand experience in how the Gripper system works on this kind of surface.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Something doesn't make sense here. The pebbled surface is supposed to make it easier to slide things on it-it should not be sandpaper-like. A sticky surface is dangerous on a table saw.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Something doesn t make sense here. The pebbled surface is supposed to make it easier to slide things on it-it should not be sandpaper-like. A sticky surface is dangerous on a table saw.
> 
> - CharlesA


Here are two close-ups of the textured top of the table saw. Note two things: 1) the contrast in smoothness between the painted metal blade insert and the adjoining top, and; 2) The depth of the embossed company branding (on either side of the blade) that add drag and potential other issues, especially with the roughness of the surface.



















I kid you not: it takes some force to slide a 2×4 through the blade on this table. How does it feel on the finger tips? Like 120 sandpaper.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

If it takes effort to slide wood on your table, wax it whether you use a grr-ripper or not.

Most of us use some kind of lubricant/wax on our cast iron TS tables.


----------



## IHRedRules (May 11, 2014)

Immediately stop what you are doing an go buy a better table saw. It is not worth losing appendages/limbs because of a cheap saw that has an unsafe top on it. If it is new, contact customer service. That top looks like a multi-million dollar pay day for folks that donated a few fingers to their cause. No, grippers won't work with that, probably only make it worse, as you may put more down pressure on the piece you are cutting, making it that much harder to push.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> If it takes effort to slide wood on your table, wax it whether you use a grr-ripper or not.
> 
> Most of us use some kind of lubricant/wax on our cast iron TS tables.
> 
> - CharlesA


I am aware that wax is used. I just know from experience that wax won't be enough on a surface as rough as this one has. I'm tempted to dry sanding and polishing. Once I do I will have to keep on top of maintaining the bare aluminum. My worry in taking paper and compound to this is keeping the top relatively flat. I'm better off building a new saw around this, making the top out of quality plywood. It would also solve the zero-insert issue this model has. Then I can wax the top, like everyone else does.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

If wax isn't enough, then I'd follow Red's suggestion.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Immediately stop what you are doing an go buy a better table saw. It is not worth losing appendages/limbs because of a cheap saw that has an unsafe top on it. If it is new, contact customer service. That top looks like a multi-million dollar pay day for folks that donated a few fingers to their cause. No, grippers won t work with that, probably only make it worse, as you may put more down pressure on the piece you are cutting, making it that much harder to push.
> 
> - IHRedRules


I agree with your assessment on the Gripper. I asked just in case someone has luck with it. As far as going out and getting a new saw, that will happen someday, probably a used hybrid or small cabinet saw that's in good shape. Until then, I have work to do. I'm a relative novice to woodworking, but a seasoned user of machinery from several different venues. I am more cautious than most in using tools, especially power tools, which is why I haven't done a lot on this saw to this point. I think it's time to build a new saw from this one and get past all the safety issues and irregularities once and for all.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Btw, I wouldn't build a saw around that universal motor. You can sell that babe and find a used craftsman 113 for near the same cost. Then you're at least starting from cast irrelevant n top, available ZCIs, etc.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Btw, I wouldn t build a saw around that universal motor. You can sell that babe and find a used craftsman 113 for near the same cost. Then you re at least starting from cast irrelevant n top, available ZCIs, etc.
> 
> - CharlesA


In theory, you're correct. In my reality, I will run out of time first. I live in the middle of nowhere. Deals in my area are slim pickings and there isn't the funds to buy new again. Besides, what fun I would have in making something. It's in my nature.


----------



## retfr8flyr (Oct 30, 2013)

If you are stuck with that saw then I would try a and sand the table surface to get it smoother. As stated the last thing you want on a table say is for the surface to not allow things to slide easily. You could take a ROS and go over the top until you get it smooth, then use steel and get it smoother and then wax it well. I don't care how safety cautious you are, a sticking table top is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

You have a few choices here:
1- get a 40-80 grid sharpening stone, but some oil om the surface and work out those pits. If you don't have a stone, protect the electrical with plastic or remove the top and use a concrete cap or block with water.

2- Grinder with a grinding sand paper; start with 40 and work your way up. Be careful, those sand papers can eat the top faster than you think


----------



## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

I would send those picture to the manufacturer and ask, "WTF??"


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

contact cement a pc of laminate over the top. Far easier than any of the other solutions.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and expertise. I realize you guys don't know me, so you can't know what I can or cannot do. Of course, that doesn't change the worthiness or value of your expertise to me-I asked because I wanted to hear it.

When I spoke of my cautious experience, I think some assumed that meant I could safely work on anything, safe or not, because of it. That's not what I meant. I have hated using this saw since the beginning, my past experience in mechanics and repair giving me insight into the inadequacies of the machine. Everything that matters on this saw was out of wack, doesn't want to work well or doesn't have a chance in a prayer of being as precise as I would demand of it. Still, I have already made some changes that make this several times safer than when I got it and for the time being it is the only table saw I will have. The top is the last hurdle. Everything else I have managed a fix or dealt with so it's safe enough to get good results. And even if I found a good deal on a used hybrid with a cast iron table, I would still build a 'new' saw out of this Skil. Why? Because that's who I am. Right now, It's a matter of time and money.

I have a cut-sheet oscilating sander that I thought wouldn't be too aggressive in the innitial sanding phase. This weekend I'll take a whack at this and see how it turns out. I'll post my results. Thanks again, everyone.


----------



## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Maybe make something like this^


----------



## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

Waho, the table saw doesn't run standard mitre slides, when I read "Pebbled surface" i looked it up and I'm not sure how Techno got the saw but it's hard to believe anyone would buy the saw unless it was such a cheap deal and a TS was needed desperately for some sot of job.

Techno, i'd suggest soem of the aps that will watch craigslist for you and get rid of that saw ASAP


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

Alright…I couldn't let this sit until tomorrow. Once I get into a project I am a bulldog until I've accomplished something. So here's what I have done so far:

-Sanded dry with 150, then 220 on my cut-sheet oscillating sander - light pressure.

-Wet sanded 320 using a 3 1/2" x 5" piece of 2" x 4". I used eye glasses cleaning solution, which is a mixture of detergent and alcohol to lube the process and clean up afterward.

Here are the pics. Be aware that the feel of the surface is much smoother than the close-ups would suggest:



















I would prefer to continue on and polish down to aluminum paste, but as I take off more material I will also start to sharper the engraved edges. This is smooth enough to wax and 'as-is' allows a small piece of lumber to ride across the table better than ever before. I can stop here, wax and see how it works.


----------



## retfr8flyr (Oct 30, 2013)

That looks much smoother and with a good coat of wax things should slide fairly well. I still can't believe they make something with a top like that.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> That looks much smoother and with a good coat of wax things should slide fairly well. I still can t believe they make something with a top like that.
> 
> - retfr8flyr


It actually is and I'm hoping we're right in thinking it's ready for a good waxing after I wash it down with denatured alcohol tomorrow. When I looked at it earlier this evening I was amazed at how uneven the top must have been to come up with so many high spots. If I could fill in the embossed area with an epoxy or metal filler and knew it would stick, I would do so and continue to bring it down to bare metal, polish it out and make sure it was dead flat. Maybe another time. Or maybe this is good enough to work. This weekend I will build a heavy wood base for it that will have individually adjustable feet and dust collection below.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

I decided this morning I would go down to 400 grit wet before waxing. Before that, I clamped the base of the saw atop my B&D Workmate and leveled the saw top. Using a straight edge to check my work, I spent a little time sanding down the high spots-quite a few on this cheap aluminum top. It's not cast-iron true, but I think good enough for the work I can do on the saw at this point in my woodworking. Then I cleaned it up and applied a coat of The Original Formula HC Johnson Wax. Now a rough two-by-four skates out of control and off the back end of the saw with just a little push. If you're interested, a blog entry and pictures of the finished top will be added within the hour.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, everyone. I'm smiling again.


----------



## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm sure it'll slide better than before,Just be careful using that benchtop table saw,the are notoriously flimsy and can tip over due to their light weight.I had one just like it.


----------



## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Good job "upgrading" the top. Selling that saw with a textured top seems incredibly irresponsible of Skil.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> I m sure it ll slide better than before,Just be careful using that benchtop table saw,the are notoriously flimsy and can tip over due to their light weight.I had one just like it.
> 
> - distrbd


It amazes me at how flimsy the body is. My next step in refurbing this piece of junk is to make a heavy wooden base for it. I want it a couple of inches shorter than the foldable base offers (I'm a little guy) and I need dust collection for when it goes into the dungeon. Once it's mounted and leveled with the adjustable feet coming in next week, it will be stable enough.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Good job "upgrading" the top. Selling that saw with a textured top seems incredibly irresponsible of Skil.
> 
> - Rob


Thank you! The quality of this saw is not much better than that of HF's. When I bough it, it was all I could afford. Several months went by before I got a chance to use it. Had I done so right after buying it, I would have returned it and saved up for a good used model. I own two other Skil power tools that work okay, but this one has soured me on the company. I won't buy another product from them ever again.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

On a surface with that much "tooth", I would consider trying to simply wipe on a few coats of poly. I did that on a bandsaw table once to keep it from rusting while it was in storage, and it held up for years after being put into use.

Nothing to lose.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> On a surface with that much "tooth", I would consider trying to simply wipe on a few coats of poly. I did that on a bandsaw table once to keep it from rusting while it was in storage, and it held up for years after being put into use.
> 
> Nothing to lose.
> 
> - Fuzzy


Thanks for the suggestion, Fuzzy. An interesting one, at that. However, I have already dealt with the problem. Having sanded the finish off and trued up the top, it is so slick now that I have difficulty keeping stock straight on the table, especially when using the miter sled. Night and day difference.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

It's indisputable that your table to is your enemy, as it sat. I MUST be smoothed down.

You can use a pad sander, a random orbit sander or a grinder to smooth the surface. As others mentioned, use some baby oil or something to lubricate and go for it.

It's going to get messy, but not as messy as if you continue using the table as it is.

I have a cabinet saw and use my variable speed angle grinder and granite polish pads to buff it out. When done, it is mirror smooth and shinny. Boards slide across it easily. The pretty finish goes away when I apply a protective finish to it, but slick and a protected top are more important than pretty.

If your grinder or sander are not variable, I'd start at about 120 grit. Better to take too little off than to much, when testing the waters. If the 120 isn't aggressive enough, drop to a heavier grit, then work back up.

I'd have no qualms about taking it down to 800 grit.

In the end, you have a defective table saw, or the manufacturer should be out of business.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> It s indisputable that your table to is your enemy, as it sat. I MUST be smoothed down.
> 
> You can use a pad sander, a random orbit sander or a grinder to smooth the surface. As others mentioned, use some baby oil or something to lubricate and go for it.
> 
> ...


No argument about the saw being an enemy. I already took steps to smooth out the top's ridiculous finish and went so far as to level the surface as far as I thought I could go without compromising its integrity. After waxing it's now so smooth wood skates on it.

I think Skil's desire to sell an entry-level contractor's saw has turned into a true piece of crap that is barely safe to use. I have done so much to this saw that anyone having used it before I did would not believe how it operates now. Once I get the base built I won't be complaining about it anymore. I hope.


----------



## misterbig (Oct 22, 2013)

My ridgid portable saw had that exact textured top and I just used minwax paste wax and it was slick as hell. When I was purchasing my saw the most if not all the portable saw have that cast aluminium top with texture feeling.


----------



## one1inamill (Dec 11, 2011)

Paul;
I see you are not too far from me. if you are interested as soon as I get the Elec. (220) run to my shop I am sure we can make a deal on my 120 volt Delta 10" contractor saw. if you wan something new and not too much money you can always go to Harbor Freight in Vestal. also check out online adds for used equipment. 
I wouldn't use that saw. you can buy inexpensive straight edges for sheet goods.


----------



## one1inamill (Dec 11, 2011)

on taking a second look of the photos it looks like someone painted the surface with non-skid paint just by the way some is wearing off. use a grinder with a sanding pad then random orbit sander to finish. then some type of coating to keep it sliding easily


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> My ridgid portable saw had that exact textured top and I just used minwax paste wax and it was slick as hell. When I was purchasing my saw the most if not all the portable saw have that cast aluminium top with texture feeling.
> 
> - misterbig


Sorry for the tardy reply! The end of the year got busy. 

It was more than textured paint. I think it was powder coat finish with an abrasive element that probably wasn't meant to be this aggressive. I could have used the top as sandpaper. That's how large and rough the granules were. Wax, at that point, wouldn't have worked. Now resolved.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Paul;
> I see you are not too far from me. if you are interested as soon as I get the Elec. (220) run to my shop I am sure we can make a deal on my 120 volt Delta 10" contractor saw. if you wan something new and not too much money you can always go to Harbor Freight in Vestal. also check out online adds for used equipment.
> I wouldn t use that saw. you can buy inexpensive straight edges for sheet goods.
> 
> - one1inamill


Where are you located? Your profile doesn't give any indication.

I have seen the Harbor Freight models. The one on display had a top so uneven and warped it turned me off completely.

Give me the model of your Delta and if it is better than what I have now (after all the work I have put into it) and you are close enough, we can talk about it. Always looking for bargains.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

I know most don't read through a long list of comments when responding to posts, so let me recap what has happened and where I am at with this table saw:

First off, the only thing left to do right now is fine tune the settings and finish making the base.

- I received an analog dial indicator for Christmas, so I can finally see if it is possible to bring the blade in-line better than 1/32". 
- Since sanding down the top and waxing, I have a smooth, easy working top. 
- Flatness across the top is not perfect, but for now it will work for my needs. 
- The fence is predictable and locks down nicely. I check measurements at front and back of blade before a cut and nudge it when necessary. 
- Miter slots are still not perfect. By using painter's tape on the bottom and one side of the metal runner I was able to get a snug glide through both slots. A little binding in one spot on each slot, but there doesn't seem to be any movement from side to side so I am letting it be for now.
- The top portion of the base is done, including sawdust tray and extraction port. I need to frame out the base now and mount both wheels and levelers to be complete.

Referring back to the pictures, the faded spots on the top are bare aluminum, while the other areas are the powder coat that has been sanded smooth. This was the result of sanding to make a smooth, somewhat flat top. A couple of coats of paste wax have left a slick top that has held up well to use.

I have seen some amazingly accurate table saws made with less than what I have here. The top and it's miter slots are really the major concerns. Assuming I don't find something else to replace it (and the Delta 10" needing an arbor bearing may end up doing just that), I may build larger base with a new top and extensions, using the guts from this. I'm in no hurry for this. The urgency is getting to the point where I can start making the things I need and have planned to make. We're getting there.


----------



## one1inamill (Dec 11, 2011)

Paul I am just south of Elmira. I don't remember what model I have but it is better than the same type they make today. I purchased it in the early 90's and it has served me well but I had a great deal on a 3hp General showroom model. but I have to get 220 Elec. to my shop before I can use it.
it takes me about an hour to get to Binghamton if that helps.


----------



## retired_guru (Sep 5, 2014)

> Paul I am just south of Elmira. I don t remember what model I have but it is better than the same type they make today. I purchased it in the early 90 s and it has served me well but I had a great deal on a 3hp General showroom model. but I have to get 220 Elec. to my shop before I can use it.
> it takes me about an hour to get to Binghamton if that helps.
> 
> - one1inamill


I had a chance at an old Delta Hybrid over the summer. It had a heavy gauge steel body and legs with a cast iron top. I couldn't see any affordable way to get it home by myself. Wasn't sure I would know how to dismantle it even if I could get it down there. Part of my problem is that I can't put a heavy hybrid or cabinet in my dungeon workshop even if it was given to me. Complications: that's the best way to put it for now, in this forum. Before I could consider your old Delta, I would need to look up the model and see what it looks like, what it's made of (weight), and if I can get some directions on dismantling. If we get to talking about it, we should communicate via email and phone. Meanwhile, if you would be so kind as to look up what the model is, I would appreciate it. Even if it will take one or more months before you get 220v running, I would have to something to plan for while I wait. Thanks. 

By the way, Binghamton is an hour away from me. Elmira is two hours.


----------

