# Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them



## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

*Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*

Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.

Dowels made on a lathe or with a router jig take a lot of set-up time. With this method you only have to prepare the stock, do a little carving on each end and in about 30 seconds you have a nice long dowel. If you like that idea and want to learn how you can make them, read on.

This is the dowel maker. A piece of mild steel with holes for various sized dowels drilled through at 45 degree angles. This leaves a cutting edge on the top and the bottom. When the top becomes dull just flip it over and use the fresh edge on the other side.

I drilled the large holes by starting with a much smaller bit. I drilled in a little at 90 degrees to give a dimple for the bit to start the 45 degree hole so it wouldn't slip. I then used progressively larger bits up to the final sizes. It takes more time, but you get a better and less stressful result. I did the same with the small sizes except I began with one size small than the final size. The drill should be set a slower speed and you should use a little oil as you go.

Take your time with the drilling. This dowel iron will last a long time. I've been using mine for about 8 years now, and I still haven't had to use the bottom "fresh edges". I don't use it a whole lot though.

*Click on photos to enlarge*
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Here is the dowel maker mounted in my tail vise and ready to use.

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The dowel stock is cut square to the same dimension as the diameter of the dowel you want to make. Here you see it prepared to fit into the chuck of my hand drill. The ends are just quickly whittled with a knife. Try to keep the tenon centered as good as you can.

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This end of the dowel stock is tapered to fit into dowel maker hole. Try to keep it centered as well.

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Chucked up and ready to go.

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Just getting started.

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Almost finished

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My target size was 13mm. The calipers show 13.6mm. After a little sanding it came down to 13mm.

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Here is the finished dowel.

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I made some more dowels in 8mm size for my little project. Note that I have cut a littlel "v" channel on each. This is so excess glue can escape. I just hold the dowel in one hand and use short bladed knife to make the two cuts needed to form the channel. A safer way is to hold them in you vise while you do the cutting.

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Here is how I used them. As you can see I have drilled a hole on the side not too far from the end and glued my 13mm dowel into it on the back face of the workpiece, and I have drilled a screw hole from the end of the board and through the dowel. This was done to avoid screwing into end grain which would not have held the screw well. I have used the 8mm dowels on the end of the board instead of a mortise. This piece will be used as a stretcher. The "joint" I pictured here is very strong and durable and I don't doubt it is just as strong as a mortise or nearly so when assembled. This is a great way to make a good joint with only a hand drill, some dowels and screws.

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This blog is to show folks with a limited range of tools how they can still make a good joint that can also be taken apart for flat packing.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of the drill to spin the timber through the dowel hole..


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


great idea and blog , mike .
take another steel bar and using the same drill bit ,
as the 45 deg. holes ,
drill 90 deg. thru it .
dimple the edge with a punch into the bored hole in a couple of places ,
bang your dowel (with a hammer ) thru it too ,
and it will cut the grooves for you !


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


great toturial mike
thank´s for sharing
and if you had another stealbar
drill 90 deg. thru it
and punch the dowel
thrugh it and will come
out right on 13mm


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys. Great idea David, thanks for the tip. It makes me think of just drilling the different sized holes in a piece of hard wood and then drilling small holes on the edge and then driving nails in just enough so the point will make the grooves. Same principal, less work.

Thanks to Dennis too. That is also a very good suggestion.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


i did that , mike .

the nail or screw tip makes the wood part ,
then close again ,
as it doesn't 'cut ' it .
you need to ' chisel ' it out .
maybe a screw , then back it out and ' sharpen ' ,
the point or flatten it ,
then drive it back in .

let us know how that works .


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## blockhead (May 5, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great blog Mike. And thank you David for your tips as well.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thanks Brad, and thanks for for the sharpening suggestion David. I'll give it a try.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


I've always use a doweling plate and a wooden mallet.
The Whack-a-Peg technique takes seconds to make a dowel.

Here's a good one: Lie-Nielsen


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


I tried the 90 degree holes first Randy and I found it was a bit hard to make a long dowel that way. Of course they can be cut shorter, but then the process takes longer. I honestly don't know which way is best, but I've been making my dowels this way for some time and It seems pretty efficient to me. I guess the best system is the one you like the best.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Great blog Mike. This sounds very useful

Thanks for sharing with us


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


thanks mike..this was a good one..i like being as self sufficient as possible also…and there have been several times ive needed a dowel piece in a different wood..thanks


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Mike:

Here's a dowel cutter that a friend of mine uses.

Lee Valley


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## Loucarb (Dec 19, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Great blog. Thanks for sharing.


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## dustbunny (May 18, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


NO WAY !! This is totally awesome !!
Simple- even I could do it, and I will.
I wanted some walnut dowel, I turned it on the lathe.
This is a great alternative.

Lisa


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Great blog Mike. Good ol' Yankee ingenuity at work


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## TJ65 (Jan 19, 2010)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


great idea I will have to keep it as a favorite so i can refer back to it when I need yo make one.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thanks mike


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


thank you from from too Mike. 
(Have you ever tried with a piece of branch?-just curious)


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


I have seen those dowel cutters from Lee Valley before Randy. They are really great. Especially usefull to chair makers. If I were making a lot of dowels I would surely buy some of those, but it isn't too often I need dowels, so I'm sticking to my present method. I love to make stuff with shop-made tools when it's practical.


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## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Mike, this is a great idea that I never would have thought of so thanks for posting. Are you running the stock through the hole at an angle also? that is the way it looks in the pictures.


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## JonathanG (Jan 18, 2010)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Excellent blog Mike. Thanks for sharing and taking the time to do this.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


*Antonio* I haven't tried it with a branch, but there aren't any straight branches in our area where the wind blows almost constantly.

*Tim* Yes, the workpiece goes through at the angle drilled. It's really fun to see it so quickly spin into a nice smooth dowel.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


this is fantastic - thanks for the post!


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


o.k. mike ,

now tell me how to drill a 45 deg, hole in a piece of steel ,
without the drill bending over or breaking ?


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## LakelandDave (Dec 25, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Great blog, Mike! I share David's curiosity about 45 deg drilling without skidding.


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## lumberdustjohn (Sep 24, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


This is simple enough to try.
Thanks for the tip.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Mario, I have tried that with the pliers, but you can't believe how fast I can put that little "v" groove in my dowels with a chip carving knife and the dowel held in my hand. I don't recommend this method for others as I'm sure at least one person would cut off their hand, so the pliers is certainly a good alternative.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


*Mike*

Thanks for posting this. I'm sorry I didn't answer sooner, but I've been kind of busy.

If you use bed angle steel it will cut better yet, because they're made made with high carbon steel.

You have to have good bits for this, like Cobalt, because it's so hard.


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## Jason34 (Oct 17, 2008)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Outstanding idea.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Glad you liked it Autumn and Jason.


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## EMVarona (Aug 21, 2010)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Yes! I've been scouting around for a simple way to make dowels and this is it. Thanks a lot for the ideaa.


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## phtaylor36 (Jun 13, 2011)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


What a great idea. Thanks Mike!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


I definitely need to make a few of these. Thanks for the great idea.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thats new to me, love the idea.
Have to try and make me one of these one day.
Hope you are fine my frind and making sawdust again.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mads. I am ok and in the shop as much as possible. Don't worry, plenty of sawdust, but not much else! I hope all is well for you too.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


;-) yes thank you, busy but wonderful, so happy for my new apartment and allmost fully tere now, all is in it´s place and I love living here.
Look forward to get more time for sawdust soon.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Brilliant .. I am totally making one of those. thank you.


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## PAlvarado (Mar 18, 2015)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this detailed and useful post Mike. Simple and effective. I like it. If you ever do manage to dull both cutting sides running a mill file flat across the surface should renew your keen cutting edge. A little time and elbow grease is all it'll cost. If feeling short on patience or elbow grease holding the plate flat on a belt sander should produce similar results. Btw, running your drill in reverse will yield two more cutting edges per hole. Just a thought for future reference. Cheers from Texas. Paul


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Glad you found it useful and thanks for the sharpening tips.


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## NotaJock (May 23, 2015)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Howdy,
Just wanted to say "Thanks". 
I needed some doweling out of avocado so made a version of your jiig.
Works great. Much better than having to turn 1/4" or 5/16" dowels without a follow rest.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Glad you found it useful Mike. I got this idea from a FWW tips book back in 1996 garnered from readers tips over the years. I liked it so much that I wanted to pass it along so the idea wouldn't be forgotten.


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## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


Hey *stef'*, got directed here by one of your links…

Looks like you haven't paid your Photobucket extortion! May need to upload direct here at LJ.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...


*LBD* So right. I decided not to pay the extortion and just forget about the 360 photos which were used in my various blogs. Not happy about it though. I hope the words will be enough for those who are interested in this blog.


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## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

stefang said:


> *Shop Made Dowels The Easy Way & Two Useful Ways to Use Them*
> 
> Why make dowels when you can buy them cheap? Well, you can't buy dowels in every kind of wood. Also you might be working on a project and you don't want to take the time to go to the store to get them, or maybe you like to be self sufficient like me.
> 
> ...





> *LBD* So right. I decided not to pay the extortion and just forget about the 360 photos which were used in my various blogs. Not happy about it though. I hope the words will be enough for those who are interested in this blog.
> 
> - stefang


C'mon… cheapskate, pay up… My Photobucket shares will be appreciative.

May I take the liberty and suggest, if you are not a member, DROPBOX (hope the link works)... It is free, at the moments and gives you 250M of storage… spruik for new members and you get an extra 250m/recruit. Hey it's not a sure fire fix, but an option… I do appreciate that sooner or later they will exhaust the free space… I did bang a lifelong 2T storage for $250 at pCloud... a tad cheaper than PB. (that link may be my private one… surf!).
If you do, keep track of your quota to avoid OOPSIES.

While Photobucket's stand does not surprise me… hell, there's no such thing as free lunches… their extortion attitude should be criminallised.


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