# Help me get the desired look with stain



## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi All-

I'm trying to get a certain look on my mill work/interior door project. Color a side, I like the look of the cabinet doors vs. the piece of base board I'm holding.

The base board looks blotchy and shows too much grain for my liking.

Is this an application or wood choice? How would I go about getting the look of the cabinets?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

It is a combination of wood choice and finishing technique. The molding at the bottom appears to be pine which is a soft wood and is inherently blotchy wood due to the grain structure. The cabinet doors appear to be a hardwood, I really can't tell the species from the photos (could be cherry). The cabinet doors more than likely have been finished with a Lacquer using toners and shaders which are tinted Lacquer overcoats to create the coloring.

You will never match it perfectly but can come close, however, I would suggest that you wash coat the pine as first step with diluted dewaxed shellac or blotch control which you can make yourself or buy which will reduce the blotching.

If you have spray equipment you can then tint Lacquer to an approximate color, then using toner coats and shadeing coats, apply coat after coat till you come close to the end result. It will be experimentation on scrap first.

If you are doing this using a hand method, I would try a Gel Stain, which is then over coat with an appropriate finish such as a Gel varnish.

This going to take some work and experimentation so get plenty of scrap for testing, and make sure you write down the fininshing process that you used for each and then pick the closest one.

I'm sure others will respond with other suggestions.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks for your reply!

The bottom (baseboard) is hemlock, which I think is a soft wood also. I have no clue what the cabinets are because they were just pulled off the net.

I am certainly open to changing wood selection, assuming it is not cost prohibitive. Doing the house in cherry or maple, for example, is out of the question. 

It was suggested to me Alder would be a better choice as it accepts stain better.

I'm happy with the color, just not the look if that makes any sense.

Would it make sense to try a couple different types of wood using the same technique?

I don't have a sprayer, or the space. But can get both with a little enthusiasm. Part of my reason for a wipe on was I'm doing one room at a time so loading up a sprayer to do a few feet of wood work and a door or two seems like a waste. Plus I would think it's harder to get matching results using a spraying vs. a well noted wipe method.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Alder is in the same family as Birch. Dependant on cost, I would try a few different species to include Alder. Red Birch, Cherry, Gum Wood, and Poplar.


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## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

The cabinet doors are probably maple or birch. I'd take the door and the wood of your choice to your local Sherwin Williams paint store and have the match it. Make sure that the test piece is sanded and ready for stain. This will help get a good match.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Two choices to achieve that look. First is to use a pre-stain conditioner like diluted shellac. Then you can stain without blotching. A pre-stain conditioner can be made by mixing 3 parts denatured alcohol to 2 parts Bullseye Sealcoat dewaxed shellac.

The second choice is more difficult… tinting your topcoat. You need spray equipment, and it is difficult to keep the color uniform. I avoid tinting when I can, and reserve that technique for matching a preexisting color.

I would try the pre-stain conditioner on a bunch of sample boards, and experiment with several stains.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks guys…. I guess I should have noted that I have no need to match the color of the cabinets in my first post. I was just using those as an example of the type of finish I'm after. I have a nice wood mirror frame with the same type of finish, and I just installed a new front door ( seen here http://www.homedepot.com/p/Steves-Sons-Craftsman-9-Lite-Stained-Mahogany-Wood-Entry-Door-M3109-6-CT-MJ-4RH/204747310?cm_mmc=Shopping|Base&gclid=CPii18qVocMCFRSFfgodXFIA4A&gclsrc=aw.ds ) that has the same type of finish.

The best way I can describe it is I'm after a stained wood finish without the rustic look.

I'm going to head to the big box store now and see what I can pick up for, as you all suggested, test staining. I will also grab the shellac and denatured alcohol to play with too.

This is fun!! Right now…... lol… Thanks again. Any other suggestions don't hesitate to throw them out there!


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

By the way….. I'm using the min-wax poly shades Bombay mahogany. Not for the two in one step, but for the color. I still plan to spray a coat or two of poly on top.

Does the choice of stain have any affect on the diluted shellac pre-stain treatment method?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

There should be color coded samples at the store, just take the cabinet door

you like and match it up with said sample and it'd be a close match.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

No no no…. 

I'm not after the color. I'm after the look.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

It's going to be tough to get the same look.

Cabinet companies invest a lot in being able to keep colors consistent and even. That starts with bleaching the wood to remove almost all natural color, then finish with a combination of dyes, stains, lacquer (tinted or not), glazes, etc. based on very specific formulas and extensive testing. Hard to match that.

Suggestions would include, use single boards or ones from the same tree as much as possible to keep coloring consistent. Use dyes instead of stains, if you can. These will give a much more even color. For staining, definitely use a sealcoat of some kind and test quite a bit before finishing your project. Finally, get rid of the Polyshades. That Bombay Mahogany color is very nice and I've used it before, but it is nearly impossible to get a good even tone because of how it is building a film as it colors.

Good luck.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

> You will never match it perfectly but can come close, however, I would suggest that you wash coat the pine as first step with diluted dewaxed shellac or blotch control which you can make yourself or buy which will reduce the blotching.
> 
> If you are doing this using a hand method, I would try a Gel Stain, which is then over coat with an appropriate finish such as a Gel varnish.
> 
> ...


Follow the above on the new wood samples that you get. Even try the polyshade product if you like the color. It is quite apparent people who respond do not fully read your information. Make sure you get 
*Bullseye Sealcoat dewaxed shellac* not just shellac.

You can use anything you want over the wash coat. I would suggest you do some reading HERE and HERE. Again, you can use what you have over the wash coat. I realize it is the finish not the color in the original picture of the doors.

Once you use the seal-coat, let it dry sand lightly with 220-380 paper, remove dust with Vac andtack rag. Overcoat withyou poly shades following their directions and see what happens.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

^^ Thx PJ.

I wasn't notified of your post until I logged on just now to give an update, so I didn't use the poly-shades. I suppose I can give it a shot, I have plenty of scrap stock to play with.

I bought red mahogany straight oil based stain. I could not find the de-waxed shellac at home depot, but they did have the minwax pre-stain conditioner so I got it. Is there a big difference between the two???

I had to rule out (if I want the trim to match the doors which IS the goal) some wood types. From what I could find, birch and poplar interior doors don't exist, and anything besides hemlock is expensive.

For example clear alder doors are ~ 800/each. This house just won't support that kind of money for doors. I'll never get my money out of it.

Out of curiosity I grabbed a piece of clear alder and so far I really like the look, but again, it's not an option due to price.

Here's a picture of pre-stain treatment (left) vs. no prestain treatment (right). Very obviously an important step, and a huge improvement. (Thanks!!)

I first sanded lightly with 180, wiped with clean rag, applied pre-stain conditioner, let sit for 5 minutes, wiped with clean rag, apply stain, let sit 5 minutes, wipe stain with clean rag.

The top piece is alder, the rest is hemlock. Bottom piece is the picture from post one, poly shades.










After seeing the second from the top compared with the two below it I came to the conclusion I need to be selective in choosing my pieces since I prefer the smooth look vs. the heavy grain look. This could be a problem with doors but what else can I do??

Anyways…. I went back and got a nice smooth 8ft 1x piece. I currently have four I'm working on. Each one will get a coat from one to four, then two coats of poly.

If I were to invest in a sprayer, what would be the best TYPE of sprayer? Air, HVLP, or??


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

The minwax pre-stain conditioner is a johnny-come -late which I do not use, however others say it is OK, and if you want try something else you can *make your own * prestain conditioner out of Gorilla white wood glue which has been used for years with good results and allot cheaper. Read my blog entry concerning wash coats and at the end it expalins the Glue size/prestain conditioner. Also try letting first coat of the conditioner dry then sand back lightly, then apply the second coat when dry sand back lightly and then apply your stain. You might want to look at my blog article on prep sanding before applying the conditioner.

There should be someone local to you that will run off *poplar trim *or even stock it. The same companies who make the pine molding usually off other woods. You might even google for wood mouldings in your area.

As I have a more of a pro shop I use HVLP much like auto body shops use. You might look into the HVLP units like *Earlex turbine driven *or others like it. There are so many in all price ranges but whichever one, you must be able to get service and accessories like tiips etc and also have it match with what your intent of usage. I do not have one because I do more production work so I bow to others that know more.

It is all a matter of taste. You might also check with your local vocational school as they may have a finishing progam or an auto body program which could do some of the spray work for you at a reasonable price.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Good article on the wash coats. I wonder if I use what I have of the minwax, then switch to the glue type, if I will see a problematic difference. I suppose I could answer that question by making some and using up more scrap! 

I'm headed to read the prep sanding in a few.

The problem with poplar is not the trim, it's the doors/jams. I could buy the poplar boards and rip and route them as needed, but from the few I've asked…... poplar interior doors don't exist.

I know pine doors exist but if I have to go with such a similar to hemlock wood as pine I might as well go to a knotty alder (assuming the knotty alder is far cheaper than the clear?).

I went into a Sherman Williams today while killing some time. They told me how great their stain is compared to Minwax (which I guess is made by Sherman WIlliams), and then told me they've never heard of spraying stain. They told me everyone wipes it, even on large interior doors. Is that true? I'm thinking it's not because my contractor friend, who just built a two million dollar home, suggested I spray it. His cabinet guy sprays all his cabinets. They sprayed the cabinets in our house too. It seemed kind of odd to hear don't spray it. In fact the guys suggested that IF I do spray it to use a pump type sprayer.

They also told me that to spray the clear coat I'd need to use lacquer, and that if I'd never sprayed lacquer before forget about spraying it unless I want my wood to look bad. They said spraying poly was not possible, yet I'm standing in front of a can of spray on minwax.

I know I'm getting a little a head of myself, but what is it? Can I spray poly or not?


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I usually see the kind of results you are looking for with dyes. Not stains.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Let me be blunt, I do not like Sherman Williams or minwax products, nor do I care for any retail Sherman Williams dealer/store as the ones I have dealt with have no clue how to use the products. That being said, their industrial division salesmen that call on me are better.

Wood choice, that choice you have to make to suit your budget and appearance you like or can live with.

Moving on, yes can spray Poly. I do not recommend you spray oil-base polyurethane or any other oil-based varnish. It dries too slowly and you'll have a sticky mess from any overspray. If you do want to spray Poly, thin it enough to get it through the gun properly (somewhere around 30%) and is totally dependent on the Poly type and brand as well as your gun. Use mineral spirits for thinning with oil-based products.

You can spray stain, but, usually only for large surfaces, again messy. Far above I talked about finishing with a Lacquer using toners and shaders which are tinted Lacquer overcoats to create the coloring which does not apply if you are using stain and poly.

As far as pre-stain conditioner use one or the other not both.

As far as stain goes, you make the choice on your sample and come up with a step-by-step application process which ends up with a color you like. Then you apply the poly.

Simply stated, step one is to apply your coats of pre-stain conditioner. After the pre-stain conditionerprocess has dried and sanded, apply your stain. After the stain has dried, apply your finish.

All of this depends on if you are going to apply by hand or use spray equipment when applicable.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with pjones4 first statement above. I always spray stain. Spray it on heavy and wipe off the excess, it comes out even every time!


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I got 4 samples done and I don't like any of them. I actually like the color, I don't like the hemlock grain.

From bottom to top there is one coat, two coats, three coats, then four coats of stain. Each has three coats of spray on poly (minwax poly in a can).

The good thing is I got practice performing a specific set of steps right down to the time the stain sat on the wood before I wiped it.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

So, today I went and got some white Gorilla Glue and an empty gallon can to make some pre-stain conditioner. Got some sandpaper so when I make the wood selection and get busy I will follow the sanding routine above.

I also got some Pine that I will play with.

Home Depot has what they call their clear board, or white board. It's pine, with a lot of knots. That's all they have. No 'clear' or select pine.

Lowes has 'select' pine. Much nicer all around including less knots.

Does anyone know if this 'select' pine vs. 'whiteboard' pine is the same type of thing as 'knotty' alder vs. clear alder in terms of price?

Most of the weight on selection for this project is based on price, then on looks. Clear alder doors were ~ 800.00 each. Not paying that much for the house these are going in.

I'm having a hard time finding websites or local stores that have all the woods (so I can see them) and all the prices so I can see what is feasible.

I thought maybe someone would know about this 'clear' pine vs. 'whiteboard' pine deal.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Make sure it was *Gorilla White Wood Glue *and not the other type which I think they call the Gorilla Original. If you have a Vocational School or High School that has a woodshop program, you might talk with them to see where they get their wood. Usually the companies they buy from have a retail side. Also, you might look for s Woodcraft Store; they may have although they may not be in your area.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks. I'll have to run out and check the glue.

I don't get it…. I can pull up ANYTHING online and price it out. I can't find a selection of prehung doors of any type online or in the store. It's all some giant secret catalog only deal.

WTF? I simply want to see some doors, maybe feel them. Price them. IN other words I'd like to shop for doors. I don't understand why it's such a PITA.

Rant over….


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

How about a local lumber yard vs the big box stores? Where are you located? Maybe someone in your area from L J can point you in a direction.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Portland, OR. ... and …. that would be great!

Here's the Gorilla Glue I got. It does not say original or white, just wood glue.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Yes we have a woodcraft and rockler in town. I got some names of lumber supply shops from a finish carpenter while in Home Depot tonight. But they don't have the doors, and that's what I really need the info on.

If I could find poplar doors, and they were in the price range I'd most certainly do a run of poplar samples.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

That is the correct glue.

Here are a few liks to look at:

http://medallionindustries.com/products/interior_doors.html

http://www.thewooddoorstore.com/

http://www.nwdoorandsupply.com/

http://www.truaxnw.com/decorative_wood_exterior_doors.html

http://www.yellowpages.com/portland-or/interior-wood-doors


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

^^ THANKS!!, will check those out.

I'm starting the pine with the glue sealer.

100>150>sealer>wipe excess>dry. 
Light sand with 220> sealer> wipe wipe excess> hand sand with 320 > clean> stain


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

> ^^ THANKS!!, will check those out.
> 
> I m starting the pine with the glue sealer.
> 
> ...


Make sure you stir up the Pre-stin conditioner/blotch contol mix during the application.
Make sure you let the Pre-stin conditioner/blotch contol dry.
Do Not over sand and break the seal.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks. Since I was only doing small pieces and stirred the mix real well I'm hoping not stirring it during the quick application was not an issue. I did let it dry, and I did sand very lightly both on the 220 and 320 steps. On the 320 step I did ~4 light swipes on each surface.

Here's what I ended up with. I'm pretty happy with how even it came out. Actually, very happy.

The bottom is 'select' pine, and the top is 'white board'. Is the 'white' or 'clear' board sold in Home Depot just a knotty pine, or should I be looking for an actual knotty pine if I want the knotty look?

You can see the difference of how the two take the stain (all boards had the same prep and application process). I much prefer the bottom, which is the select pine. The only reason I will not go with it is if doors are too expensive.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

I think the classification is "whitewood", not white board. It can be of any wood that is white and does not really give you anything to work with as defining exactly which species they are supplying. I think they are trying to use lesser quality woods to make more money without telling me what it really is. That being said, some white colored woods are very unstable meaning they are more prone to twist, cup and warp etc and they really do not what you to know what it is and where it came from. Other than that who really knows?

By the way, the bottm ones look much better.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Since you are in the testing phase, you might try using only one sealer coat. I sand to 220, seal, sand 320, stain. It would save you some steps and time. I've never needed multiple sealer coats. If the sealer doesn't do enough in one coat, I add sealer/reduced water to reduce stain penetration. I usually don't bother removing the sanding dust for the sealer or stain coats - I'm wiping them off, and the dust fills any holes etc. But, I don't sand a lot. The surface is hand planed and just lightly sanded with the 220. If you are starting at 100/120 and working up, the surface should be vacuumed or wiped between grits to remove the larger grits.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I finally found a couple sources for doors. Most local shops want 7-800 for knotty alder or pine with matching jambs, but I found a place up north in Seattle area, and a place online that has the clear pine with matching jambs for between 2 and 300 dollars.

Also found a nice local supply for mill work, or 1x stock.

Going to start the inside window casings next week.

What's a good round over to put on the inside casing and base board? All the stock I'm getting is straight 90* hard edge.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Great, good to hear. Thanks for the update.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Got held up a couple weeks, but finally got all the pieces cut and the head casings built, sanded, and first coat of sealer on them. Hope to install on Sunday.

Couple questions -

What's a good method for wiping on the poly? It seems it's not going to absorb like the stain so wiping would be just like wiping up water off granite.

How many layers of poly are minimum, or is it simply based on the desired look?

I almost bought the mighty mite 4. It was in my cart. But, I decided I'd wait.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

_"How many layers of poly are minimum, or is it simply based on the desired look?"_

Based on how it covers, how much labor you are willing to invest, and the desired finish look determines how many coats.

There is a bit of a learning curve when it comes to wipe on poly. This stuff needs to be put on in multiple thin coats rather than trying to get a finish done in 2-3 coats. I've used cotton flannel, old cotton tee shirts, anything lint free.
Read the directions and do some samples to develop your technique.

Others may have suggestions as well.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Would it go one easier and better in a shorter amount of time if I spray it?

I've got such a small project right now, I could just buy a few spray cans, then buy a HVLP when the doors and base/trim job hits.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Sure, that's an alternative.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

If I use solvent poly I don't spray it. The overspray does not dry before landing and everything the overspray lands on feels like sandpaper. If you spray outside it isn't an issue. I use very fine bristled taklon brushes with poly. Usually thin the 1st coat 25% and subsequent coats ~10% with MS. Solvent poly dries so slowly that it levels out the brush marks. I get a cleaner finish with the right brush vs wiping it on.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I ended up going rattle can polyurethane. I gave 3 coats each an hour a part. Took four 11.5 oz cans. Covered the important stuff in the shop with drop cloths.

I ended up having to give the wood a bit more stain also. It was not matching my sample at all. So I wiped on and off three times each with about a 3-5 min. soak, and each time I wiped on less stain.

I think I should have done the 3rd and 4th coats hours a part, but I don't see any ill effects. ??...

As it is now I'm pretty happy with the finish. It should really settle down by morning…. and hopefully be ready to hang in 48 hours.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Excellent. Glad it worked out for you.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks. And thank for all your guidance!

Should I give it a final wipe with some steel wool? If so, how can I tell if the large bin of steel wool I have is the .200 (or whatever) thickness is it is supposed to be?

There's a bit of roughness from the spray.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Here's some pics. You can see the sample piece in there, and how different it looks. Maybe a different can of stain? More drying time? Or ???


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

You should use 0000 steel wool. It is very, very fine.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

I prefer 600-800 sandpaper, especially Abranet, with a very light touch, no backer at all, by hand. Sometimes a single pass is enough. Sandpaper cuts much better than steel wool or scotchbrite and removes dust nibs and such better. I suggest you try both and which one you like. Steel wool or scotchbrite can be used after the sandpaper to even out sheen if needed or desired.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Ended up with the .0000 steel wool. I was going to give the sandpaper a shot too, but they only had up to 400 at Lowes, and all I have in the shop is the grey sandpaper made for metal finishes.

I'm happy with the end result. Here's a couple pictures. I still need to put the apron on, but you get the idea. One thing I realized in reviewing my prep steps above is that I did not wipe off the excess sealer. Do you think this might be the reason the wood did not take the stain as well as my first sample? IE , one coat vs. three quick coats? I'd much prefer to slop the sealer on and not wipe it. : )


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)




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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

"the reason the wood did not take the stain"

Yes, as the sealer was not as even when you wipe off the excess.

Looks good. If your want to have a little more sheen to finished product, you could give it a coat of Staples clear bowling alley wax which will IMHO give more depth.

Thanks for keeping us posted on your progress.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I'll wipe off the sealer on the aprons. It sure would be nice if that solves that problem of having to wipe on the three coats and work each piece to achieve eveness like I did with this batch of wood vs. just wiping on, letting sit for 3-5 minutes and wiping off.

What's your process for application and buffing out the wax? I'd like to give it a shot.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

PS- You're welcome. I really appreciate the guidance. The least I can do is say thanks and show you some results!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

I use a soft cotton flannel rag to apply the wax trying to put it on as evenly as possible.

Then let it dry and buff it off with clean cotton toweling cloth. Depending on the surface, if the surface is large enough and flat enough, like a table top, I buff it out with a Lamb's wool bonnet auto buffer.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

The color/stain variation is why toner coats are used to even out the color. It is important to let the glue size sealer sit wet on the wood for several minutes (you need to keep working it) to let the more porous areas except the sealer, and then wipe it off. Not wiping it off will lead to more uneven stain absorption. I don't like waxing trim pieces. A lot of extra unneeded work. There are different sheens of poly even in the spray cans to get the sheen desired.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

OK Charles.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

So I got that Fuji mity might 4 stage HVLP spray system….. and I'm ready to put the poly on the aprons.

Any idea how much to thin the minwax oil based poly, and with what?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

You can spray poly successfully by thinning about 15% with VM&P naphtha and applying thin coats. Just be aware of the mess with the overspray which remains sticky for quite a while. Cover everything that you do not want to contaminate.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks.

Any alternative to Naptha in case I can't find locally (and don't want to wait for amazon)?

Will it make more of a mess than poly in a can????

I can't wait to try this new little HVLP setup. !!!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Mineral Spirits, but you will have to adjust the amount you use.

Mineral Spirits and Naphtha
The two most widely used finishing solvents are mineral spirits and naphtha. For our purposes, the principal differences between the two are evaporation rate and oiliness. Naphtha evaporates more quickly than mineral spirits and is "drier," that is, less oily. Mineral spirits is better for thinning oils, varnishes and oil-based paints because it leaves more time for the coating to level after brushing.

"Will it make more of a mess than poly in a can????", yes but only slightly due to more air flow.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Great. Thanks. Turns out a simple search on the internet shows VM&P Naphtha in stock at the local Home Depots.

I may just buy a couple rattle cans for this. Spraying a clear coat out of a new machine for the first time on wood that's supposed to match identically to the wood it's butting up to may not be the best idea.

Still undecided…........


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Not that cleaning the gun is a long process, you would have to clean the gun. For a small job it may be more prudent to go with the rattle cans.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

+1 -


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I can't not use this brand new 'toy'. Plus, I can get a gallon of poly for almost the same price the rattle cans would cost.

Question on cleaning the gun- I have some solvent that was used to clean some stain out of a brush a few times. It's in a gallon can, and it's of course brown because of the brush cleaning.

Is this gallon of solvent of any use to me?

I was thinking run it through the gun back into the gallon to get the poly out, then finish off the cleaning with just enough clean solvent to spray clear out of the gun.

Willl that work or is there a better way to be economical with the solvent?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

You must use solvent which is compatable with the finishing product you are using in the gun. If you run it through the gun back into the gallon to get the poly out it will have a thinning effect on what you have left.

You really should follow the gun cleaning instructions that came with the unit as you really are not going to waste that much thinner.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Let me clarify - I would not run the solvent back into the gallon can of poly, I would run it into the gallon can of brown, but still very useable, solvent I have. Is that what you got from my first post?

That brings up another question though. After thinning out the poly I'm going to use, what do I do with the leftovers? Can I dump it into a quart can for later use?

If Naphtha evaporates is there much good in mixing up a quart at the proper ration/viscosity and saving half the quart for later use?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

You could salvage the old solvent, yes. I misunderstood.

Yes you can dump back into the original gallon what you do not use. You should not have that much left at the end of the job as you become more experienced with spraying. Just remember that you did and over many times of doing that you will not have to thin as much as you did with the original can.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Ok… Ya I figure if I can run the brown solvent through the gun to get the majority of the material out then run a tad bit of clean clear solvent I'll save a bit of solvent. Kind of like a 2 step cleaning process. Run the brown solvent through to get the 'gunk' out, and finish it off with running a bit of clear, clean, solvent through into a rag.

What about mixing up a quart of 'dialed in' poly. Will it remain dial in, or will the Naphtha evaporate an throw off my mixture?

I figure if I can make my mixture and not have it change, then by the time I have enough room in the gallon can of poly I can just add the naphtha and be done.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

You can buy empty gal and qt size cans from a paint store to do that and as long as it is airtight in will last well for several months.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Perfect. That was exactly my plan.

I'm off to the paint store …. ok ok …. home depot.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

Try Varathane's new gel stain line - I put two coats of one color and then one coat of a completely different color - Viola! Perfect color match!


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Well, I got the naphtha and put it in the poly. Between the book and your suggestion I was going to start at 6oz of naphtha to 32oz of poly (about 20%). However, I think my math was wrong the way I did it. I was making the 6oz PART OF the 32oz so it was like this: 6oz naptha 26oz of poly. In any event…... there's no way those numbers would work. It's far to thin if aiming for the viscosity range recommended in the book. Far far too thin.

Book calls for 20-25 seconds through their provided viscosity cup. On the same page the book says a good starting point is add 25% thinner or the products chosen solvent. :-\. Naphtha can calls for starting with 4oz per GALLON.

I started with 4 ounces of naphtha for the quart, and ended up below 10 seconds. lol…. oops. In the end I dumped it all back in the gallon can for a 20 second drip through the viscosity cup. Fun stuff.

Got the first coat on. As you said, definitely sticky and messier than a rattle can. Glad I bought a respirator because it fills the air unlike the rattle can as well.

I'll throw up some pictures when I get the aprons hung. I'm glad I started to play with the gun. Thanks so much for your guidance.

I don't see any ill effects now, at 20 seconds, so unless this doesn't dry right or goes completely sideways on me I'll stick to aiming for a 20 second drip on the poly throughout this project. I don't know if it's me or not, but it seems like it would be hard to judge just how 'dialed' the material is on a clear coat. *shrug*


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

One of the biggest problems is the wide variation in viscosity of the original poly from manufacturer to manufacture.

One of the biggest problems is the wide variation in viscosity of the original poly from manufacturer to manufacture.
The more you use the system; you will be able to tell how far to thin the coatings to spray by sight using the way it drips/runs off a stirring stick. Also depends on the nozzle size and the set up of the gun. The best way is to use the viscosity cup based on the instructions of the gun.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

Is the goal to put it on as thick as possible without spraying issues?

You mention the nozzle size. Of course the book has a guide for the different nozzle sizes as well as the viscosity cup. At first it confused me….. I thought- which tip should I go with for the recommended viscosity.

I came to the conclusion that (we'll use my case for example) the poly should be the recommended viscosity, and I would then swap tips based on those recommendations. For the poly it's a 1.3mm tip for smaller coverage or the 1.8mm for larger coverage areas. Obviously doing 1×4s is the smaller end. I figure the larger end to be doors (in my case)

I can't wait for the day I can do the drip off the end of the stick deal. I'm really digging this finishing thing, and already looking for classes in my area!

I think I got pretty close to the amount and look of the material done with the rattle cans. I used 46 oz for all the trim before (rattle can ounces) and on this round, with the HVLP, I used about 12 ouces, or just past 1/2 a 600cc cup. It's dry now, looks good, feels good. Steel wool should polish it off nicely. I'll be doing that this weekend, then hanging it.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

When you say spraying issues; a few are no runs and no orange peel look. Lighter coats are best so that you do not get runs but do achieve coverage…..in the process you let the previous coat tack up (partial dry) prior to applying the next coat. You will have to experiment with that process until you become proficient, but lighter coats are better to start. Use some scrap cardboard to practice your spraying technique and to adjust your gun settings until you feel confident you can reproduce acceptable results on your project.


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I used the tack up method with the rattle cans, and the sprayer. Three coats 1-1.5 hours of dry time until the tackiness felt right.

They were laying flat, so drips would be a bit hard.

I do have a bit of orange peel when looking in the right light (of course I'm micro analyzing these now  ) so I did some reading on orange peel.

I was left with one question. Can the orange peel occur if the material is thinned properly, but applied to heavily?

The most common cause of orange peel is caused by a product being applied that is too thick. I'm trying to figure out if I applied too much to the surface or if my product is actually too thick.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

Orange peel is a combination of viscosity of material, applied thickness of material and air pressure during the application. However, the more you thin your original coating; you must reduce the application rate so as not to cause runs while watching your tip air pressure. Takes some practice; get some scrap card board and practice.

And yes, "orange peel can occur if the material is thinned properly, but applied to heavily."


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## pdxrealtor (Jan 18, 2015)

I meant to acknowledge your suggestion of getting the scrap wood to practice with. It's next on my list.

I think I have the orange peel, not because the material was too thick, but because I laid it on too thick. Because….. most of the pieces don't have orange peel. Just the one piece that has the casing cap and fillet, which creates a sort of 'trough' for the sprayed material to 'puddle' in.


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