# Flattery or Forgery



## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I started my own business and have already run into the whole, "can you do this item cheaper?" question from customers? 90% of my work will be sitting there in the shop cutting and forming pieces for what I want to make and hoping they sell. I don't want to make more than one unless it's a set, and even then I never write down build plans. It's just how I operate. I work in my head, however I came across a design from a customer of a piece that she wants "knocked off." I know I can do it, and I know I can do it better, and for less. This piece I don't feel so bad about, but I don't think I'd take a job making a Greg Klassen river table knock off. I love those tables and have actually had plans drawn up with my dad from when I was young to build something like that, but I don't think I'd ever just undercut him and sell a knock off for a grand compared to his five grand.

Sorry to ramble on, but what is everyone else's opinion on this? I work a 9-5 and don't live off of my woodworking so I have the luxury of saying no I won't do something, and already have for various reasons. At what point is it ok to imitate work as a form of flattery compared to forging the work for a quick buck?


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## Timberwerks (Sep 29, 2009)

I've already seen knock offs of his work. You pretty much have to expect that when you post the same thing over & over on Facebook etc. In my mind it's now overdone. Me, I'd pass. I want to be recognized for my work not someone else's.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah, I've seen a few. I HOPE someone copies my stuff. It means it was awesome lol. However as a builder, whether paid of not, I am in it for being creative and not so much to make a million. If it happens somewhere in the process then I'm fine with it, but I guess my complaint is that when someone comes to me asking me to knock off an artist work for less money it means they value my work as a lesser or cheaper product. Now if he's behind and I can knock one out in a week or two and the person wants to pay me 5 G's, bring it on. I will make it my own product at that point.

Now the Pottery Barn and other stores that I know all woodworkers or anyone who's seen a saw has been asked to knock off, I could care less about their profit. Hell before I talked my wife into letting me use savings to reinvest in tools after the tornado, she paid a local place 3K for a 6ft rustic table and chairs. I wanted to die when I came home and saw that price tag.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Now the Pottery Barn and other stores that I know all woodworkers or anyone who s seen a saw has been asked to knock off, I could care less about their profit. Hell before I talked my wife into letting me use savings to reinvest in tools after the tornado, *she paid a local place 3K for a 6ft rustic table and chairs. I wanted to die when I came home and saw that price tag.*
> - PhillipRCW


Phillip , when the wife buys it you Never Look at the Price Tag! But she will always look at yours for new tools. 
And I agree that makeing a Knock off of the cheap stuff is Ok with me because I would want it to last longer.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah I can make and sell a nice farmhouse table for like $700 bucks for what the local place charged me 3k for. and that's including the bench and using reclaimed wood from the expensive vendor here.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Since you do not live off your wood working, as you said you can do as you please. It seems that this is pretty troubling to you. Unless you have some other compelling reason to do the work, I would not do it. From your post, it seems like it bothers you and always will if you do it.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I think if the knock-offs are one-offs and it's clear that they're knock-offs because they have your mark and you're giving proper credit, it's fine. If you're making a batch of knock-offs and selling them as originals or as your own design without giving proper credit for your inspiration, then that's crossing the line.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

And I know everything is imitated at some point, just trying to determine what others thoughts are on this imaginary line. I could knock out some "river tables" like nobodies business right now. I have 50 slabs at least in the garage waiting for something like that. Not to mention another 9000 lbs worth to cut up at the saw mill. But I want to do my own thing with it for the most part. There's a few items I've seen other jocks build here that I can't wait to give it a shot, but if it were something they were making a living off of (like a unique design) then I wouldn't promote it through my business.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Yeah I can make and sell a nice farmhouse table for like $700 bucks for what the local place charged me 3k for. and that s including the bench and using reclaimed wood from the expensive vendor here.
> 
> - PhillipRCW


Yep I have seen Lots of those on this site and most of them cost way less than 3 grand , and the people who made them are in most cases more than willing to give you plans or help in the design and build cycle of it if you ask or they have posted a full build review many times.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I've told everyone of my customers so far if they want to learn please come over and I'll show them. That's how I learned was getting in there and just having to do it hands on.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Its a priclkly pear to do an exact copy, I wouldn't but doesn't mean its bad. What's the harm in going to Wal-Mart and seeing something there and copying it. I don't know you have to do your own moral check in this realm. I wouldnt care if someone copied my stuff but not really the same thing, right. If it is some corporate made piece I say go for it. Anything else you might say no to it, . I dont make anything thats not custom/paid for already now, so I don't just make stuff to show.

As far as Greg Klaussens stuff, it aint that unique, I woukd copy his stuff in a heart beat. All he has done is added glass to a table.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

From the perspective of a buyer, if I'm buying a high-end piece of furniture and I'm willing and able to pay the price, then I'm buying the name and the story, not just the piece. If I buy a knock-off, then obviously I don't care about having the genuine article and maybe I can't even afford it in the first place. I was never a potential customer to the designer. If I'm a poser and buying the piece in hopes to impress my high-class friends, they may be able to tell that I bought a knock-off and I'll never hear the end of it. Or maybe the knock-off is good enough that all my friends want one and end up buying the genuine piece from the original designer…after all, I did tell them it was a Greg Klassen original.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

> Its a priclkly pear to do an exact copy, I wouldn t but doesn t mean its bad. What s the harm in going to Wal-Mart and seeing something there and copying it.
> - wseand


Ha, the harm in copying Walmart is that everyone will see that you charge more than Walmart for crappy particle board furniture!

(I know you probably meant building the same design out of better materials, but I thought it was worth a chuckle.)


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

I'd tell them to buy the original if they like it. If they want me to build it, I'll charge more since I have to put time into making drawings and setting up machines to make a single item.

Beware of customers that walk into your place to shop from a competitor's catalog. If they don't want to pay someone else for their labor, they sure aren't going to pay you.


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## changeoffocus (Dec 21, 2013)

+1 on Jajune post, 
and beware of a customer who tells money is "no object" , he's not going to pay you.


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## Woodendeavor (Apr 7, 2011)

I personally do not know if I could build a river table cheaper due to the shaping of the glass. He is using real glass not plexi and I have spent a few hours grinding on glass before to know that I would not be able to do that for cheaper


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Custom glass shop here in town does the complicated patterns for about $200 bucks. Smoother patterns for $120. I've already priced it. I'm building one for me either way lol. I just don't know about trying to duplicate the tables for customers.


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## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

You making it as your interpretation of a design is still you.you didn't invent the farmhouse table,but you may have made one.unless they are asking you to make a exact copy nail for nail,your not copying it,your interpenetrating another design.I would think they are just asking for something that looks or works like that;whatever that maybe.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Tell the customer it would cost $3,000 instead of one and see how you both feel. If she accepts sneak some of your own accents in there.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

$3,000 would go quite a way with any conversation right now. My wife is due in March. I see what y'all are talking about with the interpretation of it. I agree with what you're saying. I think I just get frustrated with some people asking for high end pieces and thinking I should build it a lot cheaper because they don't want to pay for high end.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I make a living doing this and personally, I have to pay bills, so I don't care what I'm making or how anybody else feels about it. I put my price on it whether it's cheaper or more. If they want to pay what I'm asking, I do the job and feed the family. 
I might think differently if I were going to make multiples of it, then I probably wouldn't do it.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I hope not to do the same piece twice anyways. Luckily I have a few shops that told me to be creative and they'll buy pretty much anything. Couple artsy stores that sell crazy stuff too. I know I have free reign there lol.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

> Its a priclkly pear to do an exact copy, I wouldn t but doesn t mean its bad. What s the harm in going to Wal-Mart and seeing something there and copying it.
> - wseand
> 
> Ha, the harm in copying Walmart is that everyone will see that you charge more than Walmart for crappy particle board furniture!
> ...


I meant I'm cheep and its about the only place I shop anymore. If the only sold Exotics, Hardwoods, and Moonshine. I would never leave.

Bill


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Aren't we all though. I just stocked an entire shop and I'm pretty sure I had a mini stroke at check out. I agree though on the Walmart add ons. If woodcraft or home depot starts selling alcohol I'm so screwed. Lol.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

yawning at both question and answers

newbie thoughts
newbie answers


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> Aren t we all though. I just stocked an entire shop and I m pretty sure I had a mini stroke at check out. I agree though on the Walmart add ons. If woodcraft or home depot starts selling alcohol I m so screwed. Lol.
> 
> - PhillipRCW


The "Borg" where I'm at, Bauhaus, has a little bar/cafe. And I take the bus or walk, so no problem with driving under the influence. It's surprising how much a guy can carry for a few miles, if it's lashed together, and with a couple of beers for fuel.

As far a copying designs, I think the final word is always going to belong to the guy being copied. But I'm pretty sure most guys would rather be credited for inspiration rather than directly copied. People who want to be copied can sell plans and then it's win all the way around.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

To give you an idea of how I feel about it, I just turned down a well-paying full-time job working as a manager and a salesman at a custom furniture place that sells high quality knock offs. It just didn't feel right. Sneaking around in showrooms and stealing dimensions… come on man. Everyone in the interior design trade says that it is pretty much unavoidable and everyone does it. That said, I didn't feel great about the knock off thing. I did make a table for my in laws based out of an article in FWW. I actually called the company and asked if I could put it on my website. The said that they would rather I not do that, and so I didn't. I would rather make stuff I want to make or at least make stuff that clients come up with themselves. This whole "build me this for cheaper" thing is not for me.

If you have a steady job, don't start making stuff you don't want to make just for money. You already work 40 hours a week. Don't turn your hobby into work. Having fun is the most important thing if this isn't your occupation. Don't ruin it for yourself for a few measly bucks.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Having worked in the furniture industry for about five years, I can definitely say that everyone knocks off everyone. 
When I lived in Shanghai, it seemed like we would get a fabric out there, and just weeks later it would show up on someone else's lineup. Same thing with wood color, leg designs, on and on. I worked for the company that made the first "cuddler", a chair and a half, so two people could cuddle on a big chair and watch TV. One year later everyone had one, and they saturated the market and the chair died out. And so it goes…

Truth be told, there is very little out there that is actually new and totally unseen in the wooden or upholstered furniture industry.

Now that I build guitars, I cannot tell you how many times people come to me with designs of multi-thousand dollar guitars and ask if I can build that for $700. I say yes, but it will always have my signature items on it, like my wooden pickguards, my finishes, my neck styles, etc. Some get offed and leave, but more often than not, I get a build where I end up building a guitar that "sort of" looks like that expensive one they pictured, but is actually a unique Tsunami Guitar, which is what I build.
I know two guys who do actual guitar dead-on knockoffs - one has his cease and desist letter from Fender and now builds violins and cellos, and the other is still at it. I won't go there, not because I hate knocking off a design that has already been knocked off hundreds of times, but because I thought of something that is slightly different and that is what I like to build.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

> yawning at both question and answers
> 
> newbie thoughts
> newbie answers
> ...


Sorry to bore you Moron, maybe you coukd enlighten us or just keep your thoughts to youself.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

> yawning at both question and answers
> 
> newbie thoughts
> newbie answers
> ...


I tend to ignore stuff like that. Just want's attention.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like doing it. I know I can be creative enough on my own to make good money. And I know at some point we all copy something from everyone. You find something creative and try to do your own. I get that part. I just don't like being asked to do the straight knock offs for less than a 1/3 the cost. I just used Greg Klassen because it's an artist I knew off the top of my head. I love the work, but it astounds me that he is charging 5K plus for a coffee table, and the worse part is that he's getting so many orders he's backlogged like crazy. I may have to charge more for my artistic concrete tables with wood and metal inlays and see what happens.


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## yank (Feb 1, 2007)

> I ve already seen knock offs of his work. You pretty much have to expect that when you post the same thing over & over on Facebook etc. In my mind it s now overdone. Me, I d pass. I want to be recognized for my work not someone else s.
> 
> - Timberwerks


I totally agree with you.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Phillip,
I get caught up in the moment and can't resist. You have to feed your beast or it will feed on you.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Good artists borrow, great artists steal.

So what if some one borrows your idea, your design. With websites like Pinterest, Houzz, what designer, architect, engineer, craftsman, doesnt take the ideas form others, and use it for themselves. its been going on for thousands of years, be it a bottle of moonshine, a garden path, a bread recipe, or a wooden piece of furniture like a Muskoka chair.

If some one copies my work, I take it as a compliment, otherwise I loose, defeated by my own ego


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I have copied many furniture designs for customers.Especially one shop in particular that deserves to have there stuff copied for a lower price and higher quality they rip people off.When you have a high overhead monthly I could care less who designed it I gotta pay the bills.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Moron,
Now you've gone to far, stealing Moonshine recipe, that'll get you hung.










But if I could make Midnight, Apple Pie, I would in a heart beat

Look at all the people that make Maloof chairs. Greg's ego out weighs his pay check so I wouldn't have any problem copying his wotk. Once you believe your stuff or any other persons stuff is better than anyone elses you have lost the reason we do this. Do the best you can and that is good enough for me.

Sell your stuff for what you think it is worth and tell the cheep asses to take a hike and move on.

Bill


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

A bunch of people make Maloof chairs but Maloof could get $20,000 per chair and everyone else struggles to get $5,000. Making 100% exact copies usually puts a person at a financial disadvantage right off the bat. There's a set upper price cap and people will only pay you if you undercut it.

That's why I usually throw a curve ball at people and quote higher prices.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Mallof had presidents for customers go figure. I bet he didn't have people come to his shop and ask if he could do it for cheeper.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey Phillip,
Did you click on every tag when you started this thread. Too funny.

Bill


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

The interesting question is: how did Maloof get presidents for customers? He created chairs that were desirable and functional with a recognizable aesthetic that people perceived as having a unique and identifiable style.

The Maloof style is associated with the name of the man who developed it. There's not much interest amongst collectors and arts patrons in purchasing knock-offs created by John Doe.

Before anyone will pay a premium price, people have to associate your work with your own name.


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

We work hard to make my projects pleasing to the eye and carefully constructed so they last a long time. Part of the pleasure of woodworking is in the joinery and part in the uniqueness and creativity of design even when large elements are borrowed from elsewhere. If I am creating something for someone else it is my hope that they are appreciative of those elements.

When asked to do something only because it will save someone money by copying someone else's creativity for less I have no interest. There is no way we can compete anyway with big box stores importing their furniture from China on the backs of low cost labor. When doing paid projects, do you really want to do highly skilled work using machines that are costly to buy and maintain in return for minimum wage?


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I totally agree if you paint a Michael Angelo its certainly not worth the same. Obviously, the originality isn't there, also he's dead. I think people put far to much into a name and less into the craftmanship. I can guarantee someone on here can make the grade when it comes to making a Maloof style chair, Should it be worth less just because the name is not attached to it? If I walked into a store and there were two identical chairs one Sam's and one Jacob's, they look the same but one is 4 times the price then guess which one I am going to buy. I don't know the difference so I dont care, right. Most likely not too many people are going to start their own business making Sam Maloof style chairs, so no big harm in copying one or two for a client. Don't sell it as a Maloof original and I don't think any big harm, you probably arent going to make 20 Gs for it though. People make Green and Green furniture all the time. If you can make the style cheeper and better then Ethan Allen is selling it for then go for it.

All I am saying is don't steal someones name, since idealy no two pieces of furniture ever come out the same, you are really just copying a style. If it is totally unique or too exact then maybe you should question the ethics. I probably copy styles all the time, most likely by mistake. I do not get caught up in my own artistry, and anyone who does is in it for the wrong reason. Dont take it to seriously because there is always someone out there better then you. I can hit a tank with a 155 howitzer10 miles away better then most, but there is one or two better then me.

This is a capitalistic society I make stuff for cheaper then can be bought in a reputable store all the time. I made two solid oak tables, roughly 52 by 26 for 500 bucs. Cheeper then in the store and hopefully better and to the customer's satifaction. Dont get caught up n thinking that making something for cheeper is bad, if it is profitable for you and it is better quality then go for it. Stores over price their furniture all the time, waiting for a sale isnt any differnt then having it made for cheeper. A store isnt going to go out of business because I made a table for someone cheeper, maybe they should've just bought it from me. I dont have the overhead stores do so in reality it should be cheeper for me to make. And for gods sake dont think you are worth 40 bucs and hour just because you are a craftsman. As long as you make more then the cost of materials then you did great. I have cahrged double the cost of materials and I still come out cheeper then most stores.

I got lost somewhere in there hopfully it made sense. I dont know, woukd I ever do an exact copy, probably not, something similar yes? I decide if it is a style or an original/unique piece and then I decide from there. Do I really make enough furniture for it to matter to me or anyone esle probably not?

Have a greay holiday season eveeyone,

Bill


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## newwoodbutcher (Aug 6, 2010)

As a self employed guy myself (not woodworking), I find the following to be very helpful. During the first conversation with the still prospect: Truly custom, hand crafted (insert product or service here) is not cheap, it comes at a premium. However The value is there for you to see. Sure you may filter out some business withy this approach but the cheep buyer wouldn't be a good customer for you after all. 
Just my opinion.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

wseand yeah, pretty much hit every tag. I wanted a wide variety of responses from this post to compare opinions. I do agree with a lot of the post. I can definitely see the side of people who do imitate. I know I do too, and I hope someone imitates me at some point too. However I was just a little turned off by a customer asking me to duplicate someone else's work for a cheaper cost. I used Greg Klassen just as an example of a popular name right now. I have no problem knocking off store product lines, but I also try to sway them to a more custom piece anyways. I can normally do those cheaper and quicker since I'm creating and not comparing to images.

I am doing a job for an interior designer who wants a knock off of an $1100 table that I'm doing for $200. In this case the original table is insanely priced. I'ts made from MDF and a small frame underneath. I'm at $100 in supplies without paint and she's advertising for me to all of her customers. I have no problem doing something for her like this. Plus I will have another piece to add to the portfolio, so I can't complain on this one.


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## leafherder (Jan 20, 2013)

Let's start with clarifying the questions:

What is forgery? Forgery is not just making something that looks like the work of someone else - it is actually trying to defraud the purchaser by making them believe the piece is by someone else by making the copy resemble the original so closely that even an expert could be fooled. As long as you do something to change the copy so that it cannot be confused with the original it is not forgery. This could be as simple as signing your name on the piece with a date of construction - or it could be by making the piece out of materials that were never used by the original creator (like carving a copy of Michelangelo's David out of American Black Walnut), or making the piece better than the original (a solid oak bookcase with hand cut dovetail joinery instead of the particle board with veneer held together by screws purchased from the big box store).

What is a knock-off? An inferior copy of an original, something that superficially resembles the original but will only fool the untrained eye, and generally sold at a much lower price. I bought a knock-off cashmere scarf for $10 that looks like it could be a designer scarf that sells for $250 - the difference is that mine does not have a designer label and is obviously lighter weight than the original - the seller made no attempt to fool anyone. If you want to avoid charges of copyright infringement you can change the design slightly (screws instead of dovetails, fixed shelves instead of adjustable).

What is flattery? Making the customer aware that your work was influenced by the work of a great artist - again sign the work with your name and the date and include a statement like "from an original design by _".

I hope this helps (my Master's Degree in Museum Studies has to be good for something). 

Happy Holidays!


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Very good explanation.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

> I am doing a job for an interior designer who wants a knock off of an $1100 table that I m doing for $200. In this case the original table is insanely priced. I ts made from MDF and a small frame underneath. I m at $100 in supplies without paint and she s advertising for me to all of her customers. I have no problem doing something for her like this. Plus I will have another piece to add to the portfolio, so I can t complain on this one.
> - PhillipRCW


Unless you know for a fact that it's not the case, the interior designer is probably still charging the client $1,100 and just needs you to build it for cheap so she can get a mark up. There's nothing wrong with this since the designer does need to earn a living but you probably aren't saving the customer any money and unlike the interior designer, you aren't earning a living wage from your work. Referrals are good, but not if they all end up being referrals for copies of low-cost knock-offs.

When just getting started you'll have to work for lower prices but in the future, you're going to need a lot more money than that if you intend to get a reasonable return for time invested. Also, running an actual business means additional costs.

On top of the $100, there's still paint and gasoline. After that, you're looking at self-employment tax of 15.3% of the profit plus income tax. When you sell direct to the end-user there's also sales tax. Don't forget overhead either. At a small scale like yours, it won't be much but cutters dull, tools break, electric bills add up and glue and sandpaper supplies dwindle. That comes out of your pocket and likely adds another $5 to the costs.

Actual take-home pay will likely end up around $63. If you want $10 an hour that table needs to be done in 6 hours including design, materials acquisition and delivery.

If you end up in the black it's a good start. Just be aware that your ultimate goal should be set much higher.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

It's for her personal use at home. Honestly I'm figuring high on most of my stuff. This is a family friend and she's advertising for me without advertising the cost. Good deal all around for me.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I add supplies to every build like shop sup plies in a garage. 5% up to $25 max.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

As long as you're aware of the costs, you should be fine. Self-employment and sales taxes are the ones that tend to catch newcomers by surprise. That and the inevitable tool breakdowns that occur mid-job.

And yes, if you do a low-cost favor for a friend, hiding the price from regular customers is a good thing.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Some pretty agreeable and disagreeable comments in this thread…..this one made me laugh though.


> And for gods sake dont think you are worth 40 bucs and hour just because you are a craftsman.
> 
> Bill
> 
> - wseand


I don't think I'm worth 40 an hour….more like 60 minimum and quite likely 80 depending on what it is you want me to build.

You want me to build a $4000.00 dollar chair that you saw in a magazine while sitting in the doctors office waiting room? Sure….I'll give you the sale price…..$3990.00. Fifty percent up front.

It doesn't matter to me if the original is/was a piece of crap….why would I want to build it and do a better job and charge less? Are they going to go buy the lesser quality piece for the same price as the better quality piece?
If so….have a nice day. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

OP made a comment about building an insanely priced $1100.00 dollar table for $200.00(and doing a better build). The only thing insane about that is building it for $200.00 
The logic there is lost on me.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah luckily I've worked for a bank for a few years and heard other smal business owners talk about that. Plus I have a great accountant to help with everything.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Tom I'm taking a gamble on having my business being spread to thousands of people who are already looking for higher end items. If it pays off then great. If not I won't do it again.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

I could charge more then spend money advertising to random people or I could get it shared to a local clientele with cash in hand.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> It s for her personal use at home. Honestly I m figuring high on most of my stuff. This is a family friend and she s advertising for me without advertising the cost. Good deal all around for me.
> 
> - PhillipRCW


You posted as I was typing….I'm slow. lol!

This makes a little more sense.


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

$1,100 table for $200? How many hours do you expect to put in? What is the cost of your machinery? What do you pay to heat your shop? Did you include the cost (and time) of the finish, glue, sandpaper, blades etc? What do you figure your time is worth per hour?


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

It's MDF and some 2×4's a set of leveling feet , and primer. She's painting it. Machinery was expensive which is why I'm taking a gamble on her advertising paying off. It's about 3 hours of work. New sandpaper and glue is in with the supplies. I could sell it for $350 and make them all week long. It's a simple table that I'll use the jigsaw for then do some finish sanding. For the most part. 
Shop is in the garage. I'm in shorts and flip flops working. I like the cold.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

And honestly I enjoy doing this stuff and it's not my primary income so I could care less what others think of my level of profit. I'm still caring for my family and meeting their needs. This is just play money.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Tony,
I have no idea what you make, but most ethical people charge what something is worth not what they can get out of a customer. If I can make something for cheeper because that is what I think it is worth then I will. I can build tables for cheeper then most companies charge, and if someone wants to pay me to do that then better for them and me. $40/hr was an arbitrary amount. For most on this site its a hobby or a way to make extra bucs to pay bills or buy more tools. Some have companies and some go to craft shows. Glad you got a chuckle though, that's what Im here for, to amuse arrogant people like yourself.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Glad you got a chuckle though, that s what Im here for, to amuse arrogant people like yourself.
> 
> - wseand


I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you Bill.(and won't)
If disagreeing with you on majority of what you've posted on this subject is seen as arrogant in your, or anyone else's eyes, so be it.
My time is my own, and I'll charge what I see fit in proportion to what the market will bear. In my world, market determines worth, not you. Unethical in your eye's apparently. Again, so be it.

Have a great Christmas.


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Hourly rate isn't something I think you can attach properly to woodworking. I can knock out a nice farmhouse table pretty quick. The market rate is between 700-3000 for those tables. Even the low end is high on hourly rate considering the minimal cost for supplies.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I have a simple response to anyone that might question a quote on cost (which I have never had that experience). Simply say "I'm worth every penny and a nickle more".


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## PhillipRCW (Dec 9, 2014)

Very well said. I have no problem charging what I think is right and fair. And yes I may value some of my pieces higher than others, but that's my piece for me to sale and no one else. As far as anyone complaining because I charged too little, again, my business. I didn't say I expect everyone else to agree or to charge the same, and it's not something I do on a normal basis.


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## leafherder (Jan 20, 2013)

On the topic of what to charge for your work, you might enjoy this true story from great American artist James MacNeil Whistler (you may remember his painting "Whistler's Mother").

The artist was once asked how long it took him to paint a picture and replied "a few hours". He was then asked how he could charge that much for such a small amount of time. His response: "It is not the few hours - it is the lifetime of experience that went into those few hours".

(OK maybe not those exact words but you get the idea). 
Have a great holiday. an even better weekend and a fantastic 2015.


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