# CNC compared to Handmade



## JasonLoasching

I am Jason Loasching, a college student attending Texas A&M University-Commerce. I am tasked with writing an ethnography for my English 1302 class led by Mr. Radzinski. I chose to do mine over woodworking. I want to ask you one final question. You don't have to answer but I would appreciate it if you would.

• How does using CNC machines differ from doing hand crafted woodworks?


----------



## SMP

One looks like a robot made it. One looks like a skilled craftsman made it.


----------



## DevinT

Don't forget about Shaper Origin, which is a handheld CNC machine that gives you the best of both Worlds. I personally own one and use it a lot. My projects start by hand, get shaped by Origin, and then are finished by hand.

I find that Shaper overlaps with hand crafting very well. Unlike traditional, gantry-style CNC, if I need to make an adjustment on-the-fly, I can make it right there on the router's touch-screen and not suffer any downtime having to rewrite G code.

If a material is not cooperating, I can likewise adjust on-the-fly without risking a robot completely destroying my project, the stock, or worse, itself.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

> One looks like a robot made it. One looks like a skilled craftsman made it.
> 
> - SMP


Excellent description I would like to add one will have sprit and one will have none.


----------



## tvrgeek

Agree. Hand crafted has just a slightly different look. Can't say it is imperfection as some can be incredible, but it is identifiable. How the grain shows through when scraped instead of sanded maybe. A vague immeasurable, but more "human." Maybe it is the little tell-tale scribes from laying out the dovetails. Maybe the fit of a tenon that was carefully back-beveled and trimmed. Maybe in the design where edges are eased "just right" and curves are more complex. For more ornate work ( not my thing) with carvings, no CNC can match the look of a good carver.

Now one can always rough stuff CNC and then finalize and fit by hand.


----------



## 987Ron

Agree with Aj2 and SMP. CNC could not replicate a 1700's Pennsylvania Spice Chest or a Chippendale piece of furniture. Hand cut dove tails and such are individual and not perfect, thereby character evolves.


----------



## CWWoodworking

Depends on what functions your talking about.

A lot of joinery will look no different nor will it function differently. CNC usually does it faster and more repeatable.

With things like carving, most like the imperfections of it.


----------



## paulLumberJock

I think CNC stuff is fine. When people say "By hand" do they mean no electricity.. like a molding plane?
Or does "By hand" mean you can use a table saw, hand guided router, etc?
Because there's really no difference in appearance between a CNC made thing and a tablesaw/hand router.

Most people can not tell the difference between mdf and solid wood, so of course they can't tell the difference between a table top that was hand planed or ran through a power planer and sanded. or flattened wtih a CNC and then sanded..

How does it differ? When you use a CNC, you spend a lot of time on CAD drawing the part and on CAM generating the tool paths. Then you have to be careful to do all the prep work correctly (homing the axis, making sure the wood to be cut is secure).. Then you push the button, and if you didn't make a mistake , it comes out perfect.

By hand? Well, it's just a different kind of skill. You have to make sure the board is against the table saw fence as you push it through.. "By hand" is actually more dangerous, so you have to be careful. "By hand" can sometimes be more enjoyable as a hobbyist. It all depends. When I make dovetailed drawers, I put them in the CNC and they come out perfect in minutes. so I love that. Other people really enjoy cutting dovetails by hand and have invested a lot of time in that skill and are proud of their results. They would not enjoy cutting them on CNC.

It's all personal perference, really. I hope that helps.


----------



## splintergroup

Still plenty of "hand" work involved with most CNC productions. Assembly/finish can often be as complex or greater than the stock cut out. Of course there are plenty of CNC products that just are not realistic to do by hand (cue up the Duck's puzzles).

Items with complex curves in large quantities comes to mind. Some people like the tedium, others just want to be as efficient as possible.

It's all part of the world of flexible manufacturing. Consider the humble automobile. Still done by hand for small quantity productions of exotics, but when there is lots of identical parts in quantity, CNC/automation is hard to dismiss.


----------



## Loren

CNC and other computerized machinery has made competing with large cabinet outfits difficult. Some places employ cheap labor and produce cheap cabinets. There are always shops cropping up in any big city that will try to bang out these sorts of kitchens. Some places use CNC and melamine to produce low to high end European style cabinetry, which you can do without a CNC machine too.

High end clients will pay for one-of-a-kind work. They may not care if CNC was employed but high end work often shows hand work.

It's a big topic.


----------



## metolius

I might think of it like music.

Musicians use the tools they need to make the music that's inside their head. For some it has to come from a computer. Others abhor it.

The rhythmic precision and pitch / tone perfection might be perfect for a purpose, or maybe it will lack a needed feeling and leave the tones flat faced and mechanical.

I think computer controlled machining has a place is in mass production and precision specialties like wooden gears and screws.

Some crafts can really be eye catching with the precise repetition that CNC can deliver on a big scale. 
Yet, much CNC work is flat and mechanical, without human engagement.

Anyhow, my office desk came from IKEA , woodworking's king of CNC production.


----------



## Jerroni

CNC requires the design upfront, usually with exact dimensioning, and hand-crafted work is adaptive, with options to adjust a part to fit or desired grain pattern. Hand work can be done without digitized plans. However, CNC cuts can be performed with high-quality craftsmanship. CNC parts can also be made oversized, so they can be shaved down to precise fits. Similarly, hand-crafted work can be batched in such a way to be more productive than CNC. CNC productivity shines for standardized, plywood and panel stock, with CNC saws and automated material handling. But, one of the main assumptions for CNC is that the stock is prepared to meet starting specifications.

The other aspect of hand-crafted work, the craftsperson usually gets smarter and more productive with time, and can apply the learning to other, related work. I suppose AI is coming to woodworking eventually - but most of us love woodworking because of that kind of learning, and how our imaginations are inspired by forms in nature, the wood, and stories of our pals.


----------



## drsurfrat

> ... an ethnography for my English 1302 class …
> 
> • How does using CNC machines differ from doing hand crafted woodworks?
> 
> - JasonLoasching


It seems you want a personal (cultural) description instead of technical. metolius hits it exactly right to me. Some of us like the *process* of making almost everything by hand, others of us like to get to the finished *product* most efficiently. Socially, there seems to be greater value in high quality-hand made, but there is also appreciation for the latest, novel technical advances, in this case CNC.

I had to look it up.
"Ethnography: The scientific description of the customs of individual peoples and cultures." - Oxford Dictionary on lexico.com


----------



## MadMark

There is such a thing as a price vs volume graph. There are two opposite operating points. High volume/low cost and low volume/high cost.

CNC (which I've used extensively and love) is the high volume/low cost tooling. The CNC is optimally used performing gang runs of small items (think a dozen routers in a grid on a *large* gantry). Smaller scale units can route multiple MDF panels at once. Economies of scale apply. The tooling is run by relatively unskilled operator. Long runs of identical items are the rule of the day. The NRE (Non Recurring Engineering) is spread over a large run.

CNC shops often have large staffs specialized in certain operations. Operations occur in parallel.

This is like swimming with sharks because anyone with the same rig and gcode can duplicate the work *exactly* and it becomes a race to the bottom on price and quality.

Hand work is done in a shop without dedicated tooling. One or two skilled operators (usually a journeyman and an apprentice/helper) do all operations sequentially and individually. Jigs are set up and torn down as needed. The operators are generalists and can operate every tool in the shop both hand and power. Production runs are generally under a dozen and many different items are crafted. Many items are "one off's", fully burdened for all NRE costs. Production time is variable, it takes the time that it takes. End pricing is wildly variable from item to item.

No matter what the economic conditions are *someone* has $$$ for quality work. If you have the skills, you can operate at the high dollar/low volume realm.

Most of us operate somewhere between these two limits. Not perfect work but good enough at the volume and price point.


----------



## kelvancra

I call BS on the claim "looks like a robot made it vs …."

There are crafts people out there, past and present, who take/took time to make their work look perfect, and pull it off. Too, MANY CNC products were duplicated off original works in, seemingly, in infinite numbers.

I am thankful for CNC. People who could afford to pay a workman for his hire can enjoy things they, otherwise, could not enjoy.

A friend has a CNC and using it is an art in itself.


----------



## becikeja

Your entire paper can be wrapped up in one word. SKILL
That's it. Both don't require much to dabble. But both require a great deal to master.


----------



## bobnann

Two idea from above posts.. First was the mention of the word " manufacturing ". I'm looking at a simple keepsake box I manufactured as I type. Mitered corner with splines, inset top, etc. Nothing too crazy. 
Second concept mentioned above was "economy of scale". Would it have made sense for me to invest in a CNC machine to make this simple keepsake box? Of course not. Now if was manufacturing 5000 boxes?
The tipping point, from a business perspective, is somewhere in between. Programming and using CNC is an art form in itself. I find fascinating. And it takes a lot knowledge and time to make it work properly.
But the analogy I use is the simple copy machine. Draw your ideas on a sheet of paper, insert into machine and hit print. The machine will duplicate the drawing over and over. However the idea on that sheet was "handcrafted " if you will. Hand crafted will always (thankfully) have it's place in our world.


----------



## rwe2156

"You didn't build that".......


----------



## rad457

One is Craftsmanship and the other Production. 
Just read a quote by James Krenov calling Sam Maloff a Router Jockey, made me smile.


----------



## DS

> • How does using CNC machines differ from doing hand crafted woodworks?
> 
> - JasonLoasching


Jason you will find that on this forums there are generally two camps when it comes to CNC Woodworking.
1. Buy a predefined highly detailed graphic file and press the start button an voila'! You are an "artist."
2. A CNC is only useful To make high volumes of the same item over and over and over again.

Thus far, those are the opinions I see above. (Generalizing a bit here, I know)

I consider myself of a third, less popular opinion.
First, I am a highly skilled woodworker with 35 years of professional experience. I only began using a CNC in the last 23 years.

The first CNC machine I bought was for a custom cabinet shop who was trying to increase production.
Although the level of creativity was above average, we didn't really try to step outside the box much.

All programs were use once and throw the code away. Because our design software was highly automated (parametric) nearly all of the mundane operations were removed from the forefront of the work and happened automatically in the background. Joinery and the like largely took care of themselves and the designer is left free to consider the larger view of the project and the more creative aspects rather than the mundane.

I look at CNC as an accelerator of my creative process. I don't use a CNC to do the hand carving of a large piece, but I do use it to remove the bulk of the waste material in the blocking stage. 
Blocking a large carving is time consuming and boring work. The CNC relieves me of that tedium and lets me jump over it directly to the fun parts.

Largely, we currently use a CNC to handle copious volumes of case goods, (also tedious and boring work) but every so often we use it to handle very creative projects that would normally be out of reach without a CNC.

Most folks here, (not all), on this hobby forum fail to see a CNC as a way to increase their craftsmanship, but rather choose to be threatened by, or try diminish the value of, a CNC in the process of fine woodworking.

My opinion is that, in the right hands, a CNC will amplify the creative process that is woodworking.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

I can usually spot work from a shop that's all machinery. Esp cnc machinery it's too perfect lacks the natural beauty of the imperfections of the hand and eye.
This imperfect character isn't something cnc can create.
Here's a example.








Ebony with silver inlays. Not my work


----------



## kelvancra

1) A key, touched on above, remains the machine does not do it all.

- Someone milled and dried the wood.

- Someone selected the wood.

- Someone roughed in the wood.

2) Like the one Aj posted, merely that it was CNC'd didn't make it ugly.

3) Like the oak barrel staves I saw at a friends, some of the work was his, some was via his CNC router. The combo remains beautiful.

4) CNC is just an evolution in woodwork and machine work. If you want all hand crafted, toss the table saw, miter, router and so on. Hell, chew your way to a finished product.

All around us are copies of the Mona Lisa, or some other piece of art. Only the hypocrite would set his/her coffee down on a mass produced end table/kitchen table, then whine because someone had the money to buy a CNC and took the HOURS AND HOURS to learn to run it to make a one or two time project, before moving to the next one.

I have zero qualms about admitting my drawing of Mona looks akin to a four year olds stick woman. As such, I need all the help I can get. For me, that starts with an opaque projector, or a toner copier.

When I grow up, I want both a CNC router and a laser.


----------



## MadMark

We had $2500 CNC for making holes in 19" alum equipment panels using PC 693 router head and solid carbide single spur bits. Cut tons of alum on slow feed with coolant mist.

Had it automated to the point where you'ld draw a panel in AutoCAD, run the magic software, load a blank & kick off the machine, and drink coffee until the part was done. Sketch to finished part in minutes.


----------



## EarlS

To my way of thinking, a "CNC" is a specific operation (computer numerical control), if you will. However, the concept of CNC is reproducibility. When I made multiple sets of built in closets, I set up a router, table saw, dovetail jig, or whatever operation and ran multiple pieces through it to provide many identical pieces. Handcrafting implies that you are making a unique item. If you handcraft 2 items, they may be very similar, but technically, they are not identical.

Carving a design is considered handmade. While the same design can also be performed on a CNC machine it is not considered handmade. The difference is that the CNC version makes the same identical thing over and over with little or no human involvement (the machine does all of the thinking) while the hand carved design requires a person to do most of the thinking.


----------



## DS

Technically, the machine does *Zero* thinking. 
It runs the code that a thinking person (usually a woodworker) created for it.

If you give the machine bad code, you get bad parts. 
The machine doesn't think, "I wonder if he really meant to do something else" and fix it for you.

Maybe one day, our great grand kids will have that AI-CNC to do that. 
For now, the humans still do all the thinking.


----------



## LeeRoyMan

Not one thing against cnc machines.
If I could justify one for what I do I wouldn't hesitate.

That being said.

Two eagle carvings exactly the same.
One by hand and one by cnc. You can pick the one you want.
Which do you choose and why?


----------



## DS

> Not one thing against cnc machines.
> If I could justify one for what I do I wouldn t hesitate.
> 
> That being said.
> 
> Two eagle carvings exactly the same.
> One by hand and one by cnc. You can pick the one you want.
> Which do you choose and why?
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


Three Eagles carvings side by side.
One carved by hand, one by CNC and the third carved by hand after a lot of heavy lifting by the CNC.

The all hand carved costs $500
The CNC made one costs $45
The CNC assisted, but still hand carved costs $250

Oh and in the same time period to make one fully hand carved eagle, he could make three or four partially hand carved eagles, or, twenty fully CNC carved ones.

The artist makes the least money for his time doing the single hand carved unit.

The CNC assisted, but still hand carved eagle is indistinguishable from the fully hand carved one.
The fully CNC carved one, well, isn't.

Now which one?


----------



## LeeRoyMan

I think the hand carved with the cnc assist. Depending on how much hand carving there is.
(The fully hand carved one was made specifically for a client and sold for 4,500.00) 

But what I was reaching for was more about perceived value. 
2 of the exact same things but different values only because someone knows one was by hand and the other not.

Their both exactly the same, if you didn't know the method that it was made, would one be worth any more than the other.


----------



## MadMark

But they're never *exactly* the same. They might be *close* but the hand work will show for all but the simplest objects.

Also, there are things you can make by hand that CNC cannot. Undercutting, for one, sharp inside corners for another.

CNC contour work will often require detailed hand sanding. So right off the device the differences are obvious.

Straight or curved thru cuts or cuts at a single height (edging) you can't tell if it's done CNC, hand router or router plane. Customer perceived difference - cost.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

I think for me I was influenced by some pottery I saw in a museum made by Indians hundreds of years ago.
It was just marvelous the painting the size the texture.
Good Art is like a good camp fire just cannot stop staring at it.
That's when I decided to let my work show the road from my head to my heart to my hands. It's a long road for sure.
Good Luck


----------



## Sark

CNC & 3D printers open up a world of exciting possibilities of doing something that would almost or completely be impossible in any other way. And that's intriguing if your work is more arts and crafts oriented, or purely artistic. I've seen in the magazines some incredible pieces that could only be done with clever automation.

In order to reach that type of productivity, how much of your life do you want to devote to learning the machine and programming or do you prefer working with your tools in a way that you're familiar? Same distinction with 3D printers…how much of your day do you want to devote to learning and understanding and using the new toy, versus doing something else?


----------



## LeeRoyMan

> But they re never *exactly* the same. They might be *close* but the hand work will show for all but the simplest objects.
> 
> Also, there are things you can make by hand that CNC cannot. Undercutting, for one, sharp inside corners for another.
> 
> CNC contour work will often require detailed hand sanding. So right off the device the differences are obvious.
> 
> Straight or curved thru cuts or cuts at a single height (edging) you can t tell if it s done CNC, hand router or router plane. Customer perceived difference - cost.
> 
> - Madmark2


Sorry Mark,
I thought it was a given that this was a hypothetical comparison. 
In which, yes they would both be exactly identical.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> • How does using CNC machines differ from doing hand crafted woodworks?
> 
> - JasonLoasching
> 
> Jason you will find that on this forums there are generally two camps when it comes to CNC Woodworking.
> 1. Buy a predefined highly detailed graphic file and press the start button an voila'! You are an "artist."
> 2. A CNC is only useful To make high volumes of the same item over and over and over again.
> 
> Thus far, those are the opinions I see above. (Generalizing a bit here, I know)
> 
> I consider myself of a third, less popular opinion.
> First, I am a highly skilled woodworker with 35 years of professional experience. I only began using a CNC in the last 23 years.
> 
> The first CNC machine I bought was for a custom cabinet shop who was trying to increase production.
> Although the level of creativity was above average, we didn't really try to step outside the box much.
> 
> All programs were use once and throw the code away. Because our design software was highly automated (parametric) nearly all of the mundane operations were removed from the forefront of the work and happened automatically in the background. Joinery and the like largely took care of themselves and the designer is left free to consider the larger view of the project and the more creative aspects rather than the mundane.
> 
> I look at CNC as an accelerator of my creative process. I don't use a CNC to do the hand carving of a large piece, but I do use it to remove the bulk of the waste material in the blocking stage.
> Blocking a large carving is time consuming and boring work. The CNC relieves me of that tedium and lets me jump over it directly to the fun parts.
> 
> Largely, we currently use a CNC to handle copious volumes of case goods, (also tedious and boring work) but every so often we use it to handle very creative projects that would normally be out of reach without a CNC.
> 
> Most folks here, (not all), on this hobby forum fail to see a CNC as a way to increase their craftsmanship, but rather choose to be threatened by, or try diminish the value of, a CNC in the process of fine woodworking.
> 
> My opinion is that, in the right hands, a CNC will amplify the creative process that is woodworking.
> 
> - DS


I'm with you on removing large amounts of waste on a carving via machine. It's damned tedious by hand, and my current carving is about 20" X 20", all chopped by hand except for where some of the through parts got taken out via drill and scroll saw. I like hand carving for the quiet, introspective nature of it. It's also one of a kind, so no CNC for that. A rough out would have been nice, though. I designed tools as part of my job, and CNC is the only way to make a production run.


----------



## kelvancra

It should be obvious, from the posts here, and the fact should be obvious from post elsewhere too, there are those of us who love wood and toys as much as making something of wood. As such, many are not in the all or nothing camps.

Heck, we could jump to plywood versus wood and say, those amazing cabinets and things Lumberjocks build using it just aren't anything to write home about because 75% of the project was someone else's work that looked almost exactly like millions of other pieces of their work.

Of course, exception is, here, made for big box 2x's and such, which can be anything from 1-3/8" x 3-3/8" to . . . .


----------



## JasonLoasching

Id like to thank everyone of you who shared and gave me feedback though this process. You have been so helpful and I cant thank you enough. I'm going to try to contribute more than I take from now on and make it worth your while. But thank you again for taking the time.


----------



## MadMark

Let us know your grade


----------



## MrRon

I think of CNC as being able to make multiple items, all identical in every way, while hand made being one off and no two being identical.


----------



## John Smith_inFL

*CNC vs Hand Made vs Hand Crafted*

and after the chips are all cleaned up, a lot of the CNC operators "that I know" have no clue how to finish their project other than spray a clear coat of rattle can lacquer on it and call it done.
personally, I like to throw a little color on my projects - not just all bare wood with clear coats.


----------



## Redoak49

I really appreciate the hand carved pieces and the skill that it requires. I know that CNC is not going away and here to stay.. I would like people to identify the method that they use.

I understand that it takes education to learn to code and run a CNC but just not the same to me. It is just not the end point of a project but how you got there for me.


----------



## JasonLoasching

> Let us know your grade
> 
> - Madmark2


will do


----------



## DS

I know we've hashed this out ad nauseum, but, the perceived value issue has been sticking in my craw a bit.

There is a critical difference between price and cost when it relates to perceived value.
Cost is what you pay to produce the item and price is what you sell it for. 
Perceived value is the perceived inherent worth of an item by the client.
In all cases the perceived value should be equal to, or greater than, the price to the client.

Even if there were a perceived value difference in a CNC assisted, or, "hybrid" manufacturing approach, (and my experience tells me 99.9% of clients don't care how you made it), the real value to the woodworker is the margin from which he is paid for his efforts. Or, the difference between the price and his cost.

Obviously, this becomes a numbers game.
If the perceived value is diminished some by his methods, (inherently lowering his price), he really only needs his methods to reduce his costs by the amount of the diminished value. 
Oftentimes, if not most times, with the CNC assist, his costs diminish by double or triple the amount of any diminished perceived value, if any loss of value exists at all.

My $0.02999


----------



## MrRon

The bottom line is: What is the customer willing to pay. This could also be extended to a painting. Who would buy a copy of a Rembrant and who would buy an original Rembrandt? If you are a connoisseur of art, you would buy the original, but if an ordinary person, the copy would be good enough. A fine furniture expert would probably want the hand crafted piece over the CNC made piece. The average person on the other hand would prefer the CNC made piece. I personally would take into consideration the manual labor that went into a piece of fine furniture. The CNC piece would not have any "art" associated with it. If I had a mansion, I would want the best artisian made piece available. In a 1200 sf tract house, the CNC piece would be good.


----------



## darthford

Depends on your definition of CNC. If hand made takes on 5 axis CNC hand made loses that contest big time.

CNC inlay work


----------



## DS

> The CNC piece would not have any "art" associated with it.
> 
> - MrRon


This is a misconception that I completely disagree with.

Is there CNC work that completely lacks art? Yes, of course.
Is there hand work that completely lacks art? Also true.

Art and CNC work are not mutually exclusive.

Truth is, CNC work can be extremely artistic when wielded by an artist.

Also true: hand made is not automatically art.

Fine furniture is made with CNC machines everyday.


----------



## Treefarmer

I'm a little late to the conversation but I have a different perspective. I do work in lots of ways…from all hand tools to CNC. Much of what I've done lately mixes the two. I have to laugh at the idea that CNC removes the soul. Design is design….if all someone uses a CNC for is to produce the work of others I can agree….but that's not what a craftsman uses a CNC for. It's a force multiplier for me…just like a router or table saw or any other tool you might use. I have the unique advantage of entering into the CNC world late….1 year ago…but have 30+ years of CAD and 15 of 3D modelling under my belt. And a lifetime of woodworking….I retired and bought a CNC. I only wish I'd been smart enough to do it 10 years ago.

I can be carving a whale with a chainsaw in the morning and designing a mobula ray in blender at night. the next day while I'm hand carving a manta ray or building the frame of the table or whatever…my machine is cutting the coral reef I designed along with the mobula rays. Every revolution in tools has it's naysayers….their comments become less relevant over time.


----------



## Treefarmer

Yeah….no art here.


----------



## JackDuren

> I call BS on the claim "looks like a robot made it vs …."
> 
> There are crafts people out there, past and present, who take/took time to make their work look perfect, and pull it off. Too, MANY CNC products were duplicated off original works in, seemingly, in infinite numbers.
> 
> I am thankful for CNC. People who could afford to pay a workman for his hire can enjoy things they, otherwise, could not enjoy.
> 
> A friend has a CNC and using it is an art in itself.
> 
> - Kelly


Weve had CNC operators for $12 an hour. No art, just labor. The guy in the air conditioned office cant build anything either but is payed to do the layouts and is payed for his college education.

Knowing how to create the drawings and transfer files is the main skill…


----------



## darthford

> Knowing how to create the drawings and transfer files is the main skill…
> 
> - JackDuren


You are forgetting the CAM side of CAD/CAM - machine fixturing, tooling, roughing vs finishing, 4th and 5th axis, live tooling heads, feeds and speeds, etc.

And you can combine hand crafted and CNC. Look at the vents in this guitar amp cabinet, crafted on a $250k Mori Seiki CNC lathe out of bar stock.


----------



## MadMark

We had a small CNC that we used to make drilled alum panels on a "wood" CNC. It had a PC 693 router head on it.

We did drawings in AutoCAD and with a few simple conventions were able to directly convert DXF files into CNC Gcode. This allowed a lower skilled operator to load the machine, kick off the selected cut file, start the coolant flow and router and walk away for however long the cut file said it would run.

CNC is a tool like any other. It can be used as part of a manufacturing process or it can be the process all by itself.

What CNC suffers from is the same problem that cubic zirconia has vs diamonds - perfection! The results are all the same with no imperfections that define real vs artificial. Real diamonds have small flaws, occlusions, and other defects found in nature. CNC is perfect and repeatable, hand work is not. Its the tiny imperfections that reflect the hand work.


----------



## Bryan_M

This is a hot button question. I'll answer it thusly…. Most CNC is hand finished anyway. Back in the day the master craftsman would have an apprentice remove the bulk of the material and do repetitive tasks. What does it matter if the wood is removed by a robot or a human? If you asked the wood I don't think it would care. Whoever does the final work is what matters, and that is where the real craftsmanship is and will determine the quality of the product. The CNC is fantastic for repetitive multiples of a single product. It's not necessarily faster for one off products. I use CNC, waterjet, wood and metal lasers, and plasma CNC. With all of them, the finish work is where the time is best spent and that is almost always done by hand by a human.


----------



## robscastle

OMG poor Jason will regret asking the question!
A bit like Fords and Holdens!


----------



## MrRon

As to the difference in cost of a hand made item vs a CNC made item, you have to factor in the cost of the CNC machine and the value of CAD training, all of which adds up to a lot of money. To say a hand made item is worth more than a CNC made item, must take into account the costs involved with CNC. A sculpture of Venus De Milo could be duplicated exactly using modern day scanning software and transferred to a CNC machine (something which is regularly done to preserve antiquities for museums) but only the original would be priceless. Before CNC, a work of art was valuable because it was a "one off" and irreplaceable. Does an exact copy (forgery) make it less valuable than the original? I suspect that carbon dating would be the only way to distinguish between a copy and an original.


----------



## robscastle

And the beat goes on.






The animal fur "lovers" theme song!


----------



## Ryan_cao

(1) High degree of automation improves processing efficiency.

(2) The consistency of the processed parts is high. Due to the high positioning accuracy and repeat positioning accuracy of the CNC machine tool, the direct difference of the processed parts is small, reducing human error.


----------



## Underdog

> One looks like a robot made it. One looks like a skilled craftsman made it.
> 
> - SMP


With apologies to SMP…

Whatever you do, don't make the mistake of making this so binary. There's a wide array of craftsmen represented here and they are NOT monolithic. These craftsmen range from those who use only hand tools and centuries old techniques, to people who employ power tools and hand tools, to teams of people who specialize in design, finishing, assembly, CAD/CAM work to make custom kitchens and multi-million dollar commercial projects.

This is not an either/or binary situation.


----------



## Woodnmetal

X3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Madmark2,

We did drawings in AutoCAD and with a few simple conventions were able to directly convert DXF files into CNC Gcode.
--------------------------------------------.
Perhaps Im not understanding the word conventions in this statement. ( That could be confusing to most..) Perhaps you meant " simple clicks from a mouse" ?
This leads me to a couple questions if you don't mind…

Did your software provider/s, NOT provide you with any Translators ( CAD side of things) or Post processor (CAM side of things) with the machine you purchased?

Gary


----------



## MadMark

What "software provider"? We got Mach3. Fin.

Wrote our own dxf/gcode converter. Didn't take long as I was fluent in dxf and passingly familiar with gcode.

We had a "drill" layer that drove the gcode. Only what was on that layer convered. We had completed drawings that would automagically update the CNC.

Worked great and tailored to our specific needs.


----------



## Woodnmetal

OK,
I'm not familiar with the MACH3. Fin, so this is good information for me…

So you converted from, DWG-DXF-NC in MACH3. Fin, creating all the translators, G-code post processor yourself.
Not a simple "save as"?

Gary


----------



## DS

In the "good old days" circa 2000 A.D. this dwg to dxf to gcode method was considered state of the art.

The main problem is the conversion was time consuming for the computer technology of the time.
There was actually a conversion program called second shift, because a decent household of cabinets might take 10 to12 hours of processing time to make gcode.
So you would start it just before going home for the night, then, come in the next morning to see if it had any errors.

I got around this back then by running 2 or more computers 24/7, practically.

Nowadays, the dxf layer is skipped entirely and modern programs can create gcode directly from the CAD.
It sometimes can take 1 or 2 minutes to do it this way, but, it at least doesn't take all night.


----------



## bigblockyeti

One requires a knowlege of how to use tools another requires knowledge of how to push buttons and move a mouse.


----------



## Ocelot

A computer *is* a tool.


----------



## Ocelot

I don't have a CNC machine.

I was recently looking at a series of videos on the building of a display cabinet by Andrew Pitts, who used to post on LJ.

It was a custom one-off piece built to fit in a particular place in a client's home.

Andrew starts with logs, which he mills and dries himself (and a bit of ply for the back, which he venered).

CNC is just one of the tools in his very well equipped shop. (That was his old shop. He has moved and has a smaller one now.) He did everything from sawing the logs and drying the lumber to venering, to hand carving cabinet door pulls to CNC. CNC was used to make the feet of the cabinet and 2 parts with continually varying radius which also were doweled in between two shelves.

Look on YouTube under Andrew Pitts, furnituremaker. (excuse my spelling)

Beginning

Legs

Other CNC parts.


----------



## oldnovice

There is one aspect about this topic that *no one* touched on and it is why I have a CNC.
I have RA, reumatiod arthritis, and cannot hold my hand tools as well as once could, my joints are easily stressed by vibration, and the CNC reduces much of that pain.
My CNC allows me cut parts, just like I used to do on my other tools, and complete the project with much stress on my joints.

The *handmade versus CNC made argument falls apart* as with any woodworking project is only complete when the wood is properly stained, dyed, varnished, or lacquered, and I have yet to find a CNC capable of that task.

You can make a true handmade project but if the varnish has runs/drips or the stain is blotchy the project will definitely look handmade and the same holds true for a complete (if the is such a thing) CNC cut project.

That's my opinion but I could be wrong!


----------



## MrRon

A hand made item will usually, if not always show a defect. A defect could be purposely programed into a CNC that would give the appearance of a "hand made" defect. A CNC is a tool and should be regarded the same as a hand operated tool. Both require skill and depend on the quality of the material used and the worker's ability. Wood has it's own characteristics that can factor into the CNC vs hand outcome.


----------



## bigblockyeti

> A computer *is* a tool.
> 
> - Ocelot


So is a comb, also for a different job much like the computer.


----------



## Ocelot

BBY, I don't understand your point.

A computer is a very flexible tool, or rather computers in general are a very flexible family of tools.


----------



## Woodnmetal

@ Madmark2 and DS,

Designing/programming in layers aside here,

I, J, K, M,S,T, G-code programming, that's the simple part in 2D, with all your holes on 1 layer, geometry on another etc. I get it…
A simple drilling/tapping canned cycle was G81 X1.0 Y1.0 Z- .25 R.1, F10. for spotting, then G83 for pecking, just add the Q.5 for pecking depth or leave as G81 and go to the bottom of the hole. 
G84 for tapping…

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how you guys pulled off creating all these ext. converters lol.

Any design software that I have used since 1989, I could write/save it as DWG, DXF, IGES, .XT you name it, I never had to create the conversion data.

Good thing, because I would have had a heck of a lot more holes in my 3D surfaces and corrupt 2D files haha.

I won't even get into the post processor at this point, that may be another day lol.

Seriously, You guys are brilliant !!

Cheers,
Gary


----------



## bigblockyeti

> BBY, I don t understand your point.
> 
> A computer is a very flexible tool, or rather computers in general are a very flexible family of tools.
> 
> - Ocelot


The user of a comb isn't a woodworker, nor is the user of a computer in a cnc application.


----------



## Underdog

> The user of a comb isn t a woodworker, nor is the user of a computer in a cnc application.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


Depends on the person. Like I said before, this isn't a binary situation.


----------



## MadMark

We rolled our own. Ran on a LAMP server that managed the files and conversions. For the panels we were making the conversion was seconds. Save the DXF to the LAN share, fire the converter, and go load the panel and cut the part. We had a 0,0 block, a urhc block and a specs block on the magic layer that told the g-coder the bit dia etc. Mach3 would give us a to-the-second completion time so you could load the blank, load the code, turn on the coolant (no flood/mist control solenoids), kick on the PC 693 and let it cut aluminum panels.

The converter knew lines, donuts, circles, and solids. Amazing what you can make with just those primitives. Tricky part was ordering lines as it would cut in drawing order. Arranging objects, mirroring, etc could cut in a strange order. You have to make parting cuts last by drawing them last.

We also grabbed the parts list and quantities off the drawing and bounced it off the inventory database to get assembly costs. Which tied into the ordering system. It was a pretty cool EDM system.

The CNC was easy enough to run, the fab girls could do it.


----------



## SMP

> BBY, I don t understand your point.
> 
> A computer is a very flexible tool, or rather computers in general are a very flexible family of tools.
> 
> - Ocelot
> 
> The user of a comb isn t a woodworker, nor is the user of a computer in a cnc application.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


As a guy who was a certified machine tool operator decades ago working with early CNCs and mills, i have done just about everything with wood and metal at some point and agree with this. When a machine is in control, i consider myself a machinist. i have machined many engine blocks and cylinder heads etc via CNC. When I am in control of a tool and working on wood i consider myself a woodworker.. When i am in a hurry to get something done for a customer i consider myself a tradesman. When I take my time and complete something to the best of my abilities until I am completely satisfied with the end result, i consider myself a craftsman. When I use ONLY hand tools I consider that hand-tool woodworking. All that said I am strongly considering getting a Shaper Origin, lol. I don't really care what the label. some people seem to get offended like one is derogatory lol.


----------



## Woodnmetal

I think I'm understanding the process now, quite different from what I'm accustomed to in CNC metal machining.

Let me see if I actually do haha,

So MACH3 is essentially an Autocad/Inventor CAD/CAM system. Creating CAD file's in a DWG format, as you save your geometry , the software saves it to the lamp server as a DXF file. At that point the DXF file gets shared/saved as NC code, then hit the go button???

Therefore,
The lamp server is the layer management controlling the XYZ movements, since the geometry you created is stacked on the lamp server. The lamp server splits the geometry into Z slices. Then it creates its own cutter path. 
Your CNC home position is saved on one of the layers with the tool diameter of choice. You touch your tool off your Zero block on the table which is saved on a layer. So you wouldn't need an H offset value since its not tool changing I suppose.

So unless all of your 2D line geometry wasn't on a single layer with no holes, pockets above or below your top of stock. You really couldn't select any geometry since the software would converted any more than I layer into a solid. At that point it would consider it 3D and go into autopilot starting at the highest point stepping down in Z depths
Mirror imaging is always a problem with me as well with generated G-code. 
After mirroring….I had to re-select my chains and reverse the order, then regenerate the tool paths I created in 2D,
3D much easier, Just re-select my boundary, select my solid, the hit regenerate. After Tool path is calculated, post , send to machine via ethernet cable.

My software posted out cycle times, however, if I had tons of rapid movements on a complex 3D shape. The time was not correct to due to the rapids. Just posted out the machining time.

Pretty good software really. If all layers are on, you really can't crash anything. Just let it run knowing it has full capabilities of modelling itself around the geometry you created including the extra stock box you created around the part.


----------



## DS

@Woodnmetal
Mach3 is 'merely' a software version of a CNC controller.
On industrial machines the controller is usually a dedicated piece of hardware.

The job of the controller remains the same: interpret the g-code instructions into specific motor movements that will create the geometry specified. That's the only task it does.

No cad, no dxfs - just moving motors, actuating pneumatics, turning on/off relays for motors, cooling pumps, whatever else the machine needs to do to execute the g-code. That's the primary job of the controller.

Mach3 is what takes over once the start button is pressed.


----------



## MadMark

Everything is saved on LAMP server and processed in .PHP.

Engineer draws drawing at their workstation. Drawing .DWG files have a "drill" layer and several reference blocks for origin, limits, and converter instructions as to bit size, max thickness, etc. Completed drawing (.DWG) is "released" to server.

.DWG is exported as .DXF onto server.

Server ID'S newer file than matching .CNC (g-code) file and runs to create new g-code file automagically.

Engineer visualizes tool path of g-code on Mach3 running w/o hardware on local workstation and verifies cut path. Changes get made to drawing & cycle repeats until tool path is right.

At CNC cell fab tech loads blank panel into fixture, verifies x/y/z zero, loads g-code file into live Mach3 system, kicks router and cooling mist on and starts Mach3.

We cut lots of aluminum panels with what was nominally a wood CNC system. We used slow feeds and single spur solid carbide spiral upcut bits. The PC router was single speed.

The mister was air powered with lemonade-looking biosafe lube/coolant. We had to replace the MDF bed with HDPE since the water-based lube/coolant would destroy the MDF in short order.

Fab tech goes on doing other things until job completes. Completed pieces is washed, dried, tagged & fed into fab line.

Operator would clean and reloaded fresh blank and make as many copies as needed. Zero doesn't need reset between parts.

AutoCAD DWG DXF .PHP G-code Mach3 part

Multiple engineers could create and test tool path files independently for execution at a single CNC cell. Cell has high utilization from multiple engineers

The .DXF files were scanned for the parts list, revision, Engineer, title, release date, etc. and info logged in database and parts list verified against inventory and new items flagged and updated into ordering system.

You could tell the system what assembly you wanted to build and it would check part inventory and order, by vendor, what was needed to build said item. Saved a huge amount of time, and hence $$$, in design, fab, inventory, ordering, and production. End-to-end productivity gains from a single CNC cell and Engineering Data Management system.


----------



## Treefarmer

This has been beat to death but so many misguided and uninformed comments here.

One of these is hand carved, the other designed in Blender and cut on my CNC. It took less time for me to create the hand carved one than to design, model, and cut the digital version. The difference is I'll be able to slightly modify and change sizes on the digital and create 7 of them for the wall installation for our guest room.

The design process in my head is identical….to the misinformed that think there is no soul, no art….sorry but you just don't have a clue. There's plenty of soulless copying in the CNC world…but for anyone that enjoys the process of design…it's just another tool.


----------



## Phil32

Here is a hand made wooden object. Tell me how you would make in on a CNC machine. Warning: every triangle has a different orientation to the x, y, z axes of your machine.


----------



## DS

There are two common ways to make that object on a CNC.

The first method is probably the most denigrated one and that is raster carving.
A 3D scan of the sample object is made and a small bull nosed bit cuts a raster scan moving the bit up and down as it travels line by line until it is finished.
The result will need significant touch up to look right.

The more proper way is not all that unlike the hand processes.
First you use large tools to block out the general shape of the object.
Then you use a flat bottom tool to begin inserting different work planes in each of the basket weave spaces.(a 5th axis wrist aggregate tool head would be needed for the complex angles here)

Then I would use a v grooving bit and vector carve each of the triangles (this is where vcarve pro gets its name from - CNC routers are really good at 'chip carving' using the vcarve method.)

A small detailing bit to touch up the corners and basket details and it is completed.

Don't get me wrong, this is a challenging piece to program. It might take me a week or more.
But I would program it to cut the same processes in the same sequences I might do with my gouges.

This would need the least touch up, run the fastest cycle times and have the best results.

If done properly, the end result would be difficult to distinguish between the original sample and the hundreds of CNC made copies.

FYI, the carving houses that are considered the best in the industry use similar techniques. They employ master carvers to prototype and program for the parts they manufacture.

https://enkebolldesigns.com/pages/gallery

https://artforeveryday.com/design-gallery/


----------

