# The Philosopher's Corner



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Would a cabinetmaker in 1850 use a router or tablesaw, if we could go back in time and give him one? Is it fair to assume that the Chippendale chairmaker of 1793 kept his toolchest filled with the latest and greatest gadgets of the day? Though I fancy the notion of going off the grid as much as possible, a recurring thought keeps hitting me: did the woodworker of 1900 dream of being the woodworker of 1800? Does refitting your shop with antique tools really reflect the mindset of woodworkers of a century ago? Or were they just as excited over a newly developed tool then, like the gadget-hounds of today? Suddenly, I realize that there is more to consider when backscaling the technological level of my shop. Have you had any moments when you've pondered this, perhaps when considering a change of direction in your own shop? I'd like to know.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

My position has always been that if the woodworkers of the 1800 and 1900 really liked what they had, we wouldn't have what we have now. I'm pretty confident that they looked forward to new gadgets an labor saving devices. They were an ingenious bunch so I'm betting they got just as excited about innovation as we do.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The 1850 craftsman would think he'd died and gone to heaven to see the woodworking equipment of today. Then he'd realise he was actually in hell after he discovered he now made less money than a clerical person who shuffled paper in a cubicle all day.


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## rhett (May 11, 2008)

I can't imagine why anyone given the chance wouldn't want to be faster and more consistent with less work. Its funny how having a large stable of handplanes and tools makes one appear more skilled, even though most never use them. There is definatley a specialized set of skills required to be proficient with only handtools, skills which are mostly obsolete. Choosing the "neanderthal path", as I have heard it stated, with todays technology is more of a nod to woodworkers past and another way for people to challenge themselves. Personally I am results driven, so I try to get from point A to point B without all the sightseeing and backroads. Get in and get done. I would also like to think our woodworking forefathers would have made use of plywood had it been available.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Rhett summed it up pretty well. If you enjoy the challenge of doing things the way our ancestors did them, more power to you. (Unintentional pun). However, I agree that people who work wood for a living will always look for a quicker and easier way to do something, so I'm quite sure those old timers would welcome today's power tools with open arms.

Just because something was done the "traditional" way doesn't automatically make it better. In the old days, craftsman used dovetails as a strictly utilitarian joint. Based on the glues and fasteners available to them at the time, it was the best way to go. Their dovetails were often pretty rough, and were concealed by moldings. Today, we look at hand cut dovetails as a challenge, and show them off proudly as a mark of fine craftsmanship. But that was not their original purpose.


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## kiwi1969 (Dec 22, 2008)

If i,m making one piece it,s often faster to do some things by hand, if i,m makung 10 it,s a machine every time. Sometimes it,s just quicker to round over a rail with a plane than set up a router. All my donkey work is done by machine and all my mortise and tenons are done with machine and finished by hand, all my dovetails are done by hand. There is no right answer, but i,m sure the shakers would have had plenty of router stations, just look at their chair making workshops.


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## gbvinc (Aug 6, 2007)

I think they would have snagged the modern goodies in a heartbeat! I just keep enough hand tools around to keep plugging away if the power goes out, or I am feeling a bit luddite.

Great question.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Furniture makers of the past were businessmen and they would use the most efficient technology to get the project done.

There will always be various opinions and philosophies on what tools to use. What craftsman use will be a personal matter of philosophy and efficiency. Each will have to find what suits their needs and/or fills their soul.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I was born on an all muscle power farm, we moved to mechanization as fast as it could be afforded. I'm 100% sure, they would have and did.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I have little doubt that most of them were businessmen and would climb all over any technology that improved their productivity - although possibly not as quickly as we do.

In those days, labor was relatively inexpensive compared to technology so they could add people at a realtively low cost which let them be more productive without buying new machinery. These days it's the labor that costs more than the technolongy.


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## NathanAllen (Oct 16, 2009)

We have a name for people like you around here…

We call them Amish.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I drilled a hole with rock and a stick…just to try it like my ancestors did. my fingers really hurt bad for a while, but …. hey, I'm s [email protected]*?er >grin< ... sometimes …


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Just fall into it!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't doubt for a second that they would jump on new technology in a new york minute as long as they could see how things worked better, including using new materials like plywood and modern glue. 
On the other hand I've seen Roy Underhill do some operations quicker with some sharp 18Th century tools quicker than it would take to change router bits takes now.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I think woodworkers in 1850, or any other year, used the best tools and technology they had available at the time.

Modern woodworkers, however, have an advantage in that we can use the tools and techniques of by-gone eras as well as the stuff we have today.

So the trick is to select and use the best tool for the job at hand.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

In Indiana, going up route 27 from my old home town of Richmond, there's a large Amish community centered around Berne, Geneva, and Portland. They have developed a very complex relationship with the modern world. If you think all of their furniture is made with hand planed boards, and hide glued hand made dovetails and tennons, you would likely be surprised. Even their ancestors would likely disapprove of many of their "modern" working methods.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Jim, funny you mentioned Roy. He used to come on here a hour or so before Norm. I used to think how often Roy would or could grab a tool and whisk, wisk, having the job done before Norm could get the specialty tool set up )


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I know That's really cool. I met Roy in Portland about a year ago . He is just like he is on PBS a real character but a great guy. They always shoot with out editing on the woodwright so that's why you will hear him say" oh well you get the idea" when it doesn't come out perfect.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I knew they shot the program non-stop no editing. He is a real talent in more ways than just woodworking. I have always wondered how many practice runs it took to get the timing just perfect to fit the 20 some minute spot??


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the terrific replies! Though I haven't really been focusing on this future goal I have of reducing my dependency on electrical devices, I have come to a few conclusions. One LJ posted a thread about an antique 'Melhuish' combination woodworker's chest/workbench listed on eBay, and I've been thinking about building one similar to it. But, as I stood there yesterday, with a pile of bits and braces, gimlets, and ancient rosewood squares, I realized maybe I shouldn't be shooting for a Roy Underhill shop after all. I do have a book about Hutterite life, and they begrudgingly do use AC power, but always by biodiesel, wind or water, never connecting to the grid. I'm just mostly tired of cleaning that fine dust off of every surface in the shop, perhaps it is sandpaper in all its configurations that is the bane of shop life? Hmmm, no more power sanding? Can it be done? Would that mean more careful attention to the types of projects I take on in the future? Aha, maybe only using tools that generate shavings, not fine dust? At one time my only table saw was this horrible old 1940's craftsman 8" junker and I used to face the cuts with a few strokes of a plane. That was the type of woodworking I found most gratifying, and that feeling went away with the cosmoline-soaked rags when I bought my serious saw. Sorry for rambling on a bit, I guess that now that I'm older, a bit long in the tooth, I know I'll never do any customer stuff anymore, and there are just so many decisions about making my workshop reflect where I am in life. Thanks again for sharing your insights here! I know I am not alone….


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Here's a link to that woodworker's bench/cabinet. I should be able to downsize my stuff to fit everything I need into such a unit…. and perhaps let it dictate to me what the scope of future projects shall be.

Check it out: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MELHUISH-%22The-Exonian%22-Work-Bench-&-Tool-Cabinet-RARE_W0QQitemZ280424556289QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091118?IMSfp=TL091118176004r38222


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

After reading this thread, I'm left a little baffled. For me, the real question is would access to today's power tools have improved the work of earlier furniture makers. It's not a question of whether the old guys could have worked faster, it's would their furniture construction or designs been better. I think the answer is no. From what I see the furniture that came out of small hand tool oriented shops of the past is significantly better than what I see coming out of most small custom shops today. Even the designs were better or, at least, the maker was making the tools produce what he envisioned rather than letting machine tooling dictate mediocre design and construction decisions.

Let's face it, we're running out of landfill space and it's time to start using resources to their maximum. You know, a well made piece of furniture contains a lot of carbon. We can use a piece of furniture for a couple years and then burn it, putting much of that carbon into the air or we can make something that will last for hundreds of years and remove all that carbon from the equation.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

A good point, lwllms. let's not forget, though, that what we see of early furniture makers' work are the pieces that were built to survive. Therefore, the pieces that were built like crap 20 to 200 years ago, are mostly gone. So all we see is the good stuff.
We have to remember that ANY tree grown on earth consumes carbon, then releases a like amount of carbon when it dies, whether burned, made into furniture, (whether junky or heirloom quality) or left to rot on the forest floor. It's zero-gain. Have you ever assessed the technological level of your shop, lwllms? I'm curious to know what drove your decisions when you outfitted your shop. Sounds like you would like to become less dependent on the 'grid' too! You've stated the best case for minimizing energy consumption in the manufacture of woodenware, to be sure.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I'll look at it a different way. Whenever I handle a milk jug I always have this fleeting thought.

In the day when it was an event to have finished a wooden stave bucket that didn't leak to haul water from the well, or produce a clay gourd to hold some household item. What would a person of this time have done for this empty milk jug and cover I have in my hand and am about to crush and put into the recycle bin?

I think that craftsman of old were still on the 'time is money' or at least on the farm, 'time is a 16 hr day' that they would have marveled at the time saved and accuracy more easily acquired with the use of modern tools.

Now, I'm waiting for a laser cutter. You know, a micro thin beam that can be mounted or hand held and easily cut a clean miter or resaw a 16" log. Wouldn't you want one?


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## JimmyNate (Mar 24, 2009)

Laser cutter…sold with accompanying surgeon to put your arm back on.

Gadgets are great. We can work faster, cleaner, more accurately and in some ways safer than we did before.

On the other hand, we tend to get distracted by all of our gadgets. I think most woodworkers design their projects around their gadgets, unaware that whole categories of design are pushed aside before they begin. Example: Why carve decorative detail into an edge when I could just slap an ogee bit in the router? Actually that's not even the question…the real question doesn't even consider carving…just what router bit should I use?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

For some reason that reminds me of an article I saw in one of my dad's farm magazines 20 years ago. It told how it took something like 2 man hours to produce a bushel of wheat when it was cut with scythe and threshed with a fail. It progressed up through the reaper, threshing machine, early combines to the 30 foot headers on modern combines. At eth time, I think it took about 2 man seconds to produce a bushel of wheat and was predicting that to be competitive in the 21st century a farmer would have to produce 2 bushels a man second. I don't know if they made it, looks like the same thing in wood working. How many finished cabinet doors per hour compared to then?


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Well said, Craftsman!
Hmm…good point, in a way I hadn't really looked at it. There really is no artisanship involved in milling a log (yeah, the sawyers will not agree with me on that) but that is the kind of work indeed where best technology and tools should rule the day. A co-worker of mine wants to buy an aqueous abrasive-jet CNC cutting machine, and they are fascinating! Immediately I started wondering about potential woodworking applications for one of these rigs. Indeed, the job-shop opportunities are huge, especially in metal fabrications. But then, I am reminded of a newspaper story profiling this couple who moved to Maine, Yarmouth I believe, where they retired early and well from Manhattan. The wife, with her free time, wanted to make afghans, and other crocheted woolens, so hubby went out and bought a $250,000 robotic knitting machine for her, and had an addition built onto their home for it. I was appalled, I mean, apparently she wanted to make some crafty items to sell at shows, and blow every other handcrafter right out of the water. This wasn't handcrafts, it's heavy industry!
So, for the purpose of discussion here, I guess we must make a distinction: If you're going commercial, by all means, go for the capital equipment. If you're making for the craft shows, or for family and friends, like I am, seek out the most gratifying methods and tools. I guess what I'm seeking is that perfect balance between hand-crafting and not taking years to finish a project! I have dovetail jigs, but I can't feel any pride in the finished joints, nor can I even claim ownership, for example. But I can now make handcut dovetails that stand scrutiny by others. I just want to spend quality time, getting into my zone, for the pleasure of making things with my own two hands as much as possible, for family and friends. Nice too, when my kitty visits me in my shop, which is only when there's no machines running. Life is good.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Topamax, thanks for a great analogy!
Again, at the risk of incurring the wrath of farmers though, there is no element of craft to harvesting wheat. Once in the elevator, nobody cares whether it was threshed by a million-dollar McCormack, or by hand. So, where artisanship is not a factor, by all means, buy the thresher! But we all know the difference between Mom's apple turnovers and some glutinous monstrosity from 7-11! The artisanship is simply downstream.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A friend of mine told me he wanted to learn to make dovetail joints and I did too. We both learned how. I use a saw and chisel. Dave told me he learned to do it to, but with a jig and router ;-))


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

JimmyNate: well-said, about reaching for those router bits!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I will differ with you on whether there is artisanship in cutting anyting with a scythe. The result may not be art, but the act certainly is. My granddad would take a swipe across the lawn to check the condition of his scythe blade. I've never seen anyone else do it)


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Ok, Topamax, I knew I was going to pay for that one. 
My grandfather never used anything but a scythe to cut the grass, and the results rivaled what any mower could do. I'd suggest, though, that grain harvested by hand is of no better quality than machine-harvested, when in the case of whether and when to mechanize an operation.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

There is only one problem with that woodworker's bench/cabinet and the processes and procedures that go with it. Repetitive activity such as wood working takes a terrible toll on one's joints over a career. A friend of mine made Kentucky style long rifles for 25 yrs or so. He did over 500 mostly by hand. By the time he retired, his hands were giving him a terrible time with arthritis. All the trades that work on ladders over head all day everyday have the same problems with knees and shoulders. The nostalgia and getting off the grid may be an admirable goal, but in reality, there is a price for every thing. No free rides.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

As I said, artisianship is in the act. Just as fly caught fish vs, net or spinner baits )


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Right again, Topamax!
There's a great article in the current FWW mag about hand-cut mortise and tenons versus machine-made. Two craftsmen squared off, each going their own route. The machined tenons took 33 minutes versus 129 for the handcut. Myself, if I knew I'd never see the project after it was sold, I'll reach for the power tools. Otherwise, I'd put my heart into it.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I'll never sell any woodworking other than to get rid of it and recoup material cost, so labor as a commodity doesn't matter to me. I used to shoot a lot of muzzleloading matches. Precussion locks are faster, more reliable and much easier to shoot than flintlocks. Especially here in Water World!! aka, Western WA. Of course, I used flint One day a fellow shooter ask me if it was true that I had said, "It is more important to shot flint than to win matches."? I told him of course it is ) There were 2 or 3 of us who shot flintlocks. We hald our own. One month we finished 1, 2, 3 in teh aggegae against all precussion lock rifles ) ) )


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I've never been, but I'm sure it would be a great experience to hunt white-tail with a muzzle loader. I know some states have a special advanced season just for them. But then your fly-fishing vs baitspinner analogy comes to mind. Though, a salmon caught on a fly has GOT to taste better, somehow! I'd never clued in before on the analogies between our woodworking choices, and other facets of life! Come to think of it, the muzzle-loader guys I've known would be the ones most likely to reach for the hand tools in the shop. Is it hard-wired or something?


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd like to think that … given the chance to get a PM 66 or 2000 table saw … they'd have jumped at it.

But I'm pretty sure that they'd have been totally baffled as to where to plug it in.

Just my $0.02.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Niel, I was going to comment they would have to wait for Westinghouse and the grid to use them, glad you went ahead with it )

poopiekat, we have special season in WA. I have been told PA's are for flintlock only, not sure if they still are or not. I took a 350# black bear with my .54 flinter. I wanted to go grizz hunting in Alaska or BC, but after I asw how tough big black bears are, I decided it best to leave the 1000# grizz alone )


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeah, the black bears are scary. I recall a state trooper telling me he and his partner had to check on an elderly person who was snowed in. His partner saw a black bear coming and took 2 shots at it , both of which bounced off the bear's skull and into the trees. This trooper took it down with one lethal shot in the neck. He knew from experience where to aim. 
Oh, and who would be smart enough to travel back in time with a table saw, yet dumb enough to not remember to bring an existentialism cord from the present? guffaw, guffaw…..


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I think the driving force behind technology is not only to make things easier, but also to make more things. If it takes us 4 weeks to make the fabled chest using hand tools only, working 12 hrs. a day, 6 days a week, then at the end of that period we have one chest. Add in advancements in tool technology and you are making 5-6 chests in that same time period. The quality could be similar depending on the wood artist, but you get my drift.

I think there are some real world comparisons, one which comes to mind is Ford and Rolls Royce. Ford pumps out millions of vehicles, Rolls pumps out 'merely' thousands because much of them are hand crafted. Will a Rolls Royce last longer than a Ford? Maybe. Depends on the owner, the climate, etc. And is a rolls Royce worth 2-3 times the price of a Ford? Again, depends. Status, statement, ego all add in to the equation. But, if you look at it from a practical side, they both do the exact same thing: getting people from point A to point B. Yes, the Rolls will probably be more comfortable to ride in, etc., but again, that is subjective.

Fascinating thread and fascinating comments! Thank you all.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The driving force has always been to make a buck )


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