# Lower cabinet upper bookcase flanking window seat built-in construction questions



## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

My first built-in project for our home.

I am looking at constructing two custom base cabinets that flank either side of the window shown in the pic. The left side would be a 43" wide cabinet, the right side a 44" wide cabinet. There will be 2" of clearance between the edge of the window frame on the right and left so that the shutters can open (wall to left edge of window frame is 47", wall to right edge of window frame is 46"). On top of the cabinet, there would be bookshelves that extend to the 8ft. ceiling, trimmed with crown that wraps around the built-ins. The base cabinets will have flush doors. The depth of the bookshelves would need to be 15" of usable space. The depth of the base cabinet will have 18" of usable space and will hold the bookshelf on its 3/4" thick countertop. This would make the sides of the cabinets have a total depth of 18" + ½" + ¾" face frame or 19.25". I plan on using ½ inch birch ply for the back of the cabs and bookcases, ¾" birch ply for the rest of the sides. In between, underneath the window, would be a window seat with frame molding on the front that would sit flush with the base cabs. Height of window seat is 17.5 inches. The window seat counter top will replace the existing window stool. The window seat would be fixed with perhaps a piano-hinged lid, I'm not sure yet since the window seat will only be about 40" wide. The built-ins will be paint grade, white. I have attached a few photos showing the crown detail I would like at the top, an example of the cabinet bookshelf combo (I like the shaker doors just as in the picture and also the storage underneath the window seat), and my space in the room. I want an actual 2" wide face frame on this project (not 1.5").

For the lower cabinets, my plan was to build a box with a solid ¾" top, bottom and sides and then the ½" back. I would then add a face frame that would reveal 2" all the way around andthen add some bull nose trim or a base cap to the top of it to form the cabinet top. Will a single ¾" thick top be strong enough to hold a 58" high or so upper bookcase? Will the ½" ply back be strong enough to screw into the wall? I will be able to screw through ¾" on a side and the ½" to the back for mounting the base cabs.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

You're not going to want to make the cabinets tight to the walls unless you check to make sure they are plumb square and so on, because if they aren't, you're going to run into problems.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

So how would you construct the back of the cab that hits the wall? Maybe inset the back 1/2 inch panel a 1/2 inch to give the sides 'wings' and then that will allow you to scribe the sides to the wall? Or don't do that and just square and level your box to the wall and then add trim where the side hits the wall? I already am assuming I will need to scribe the side of the face frame that touches the side walls.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Well for one, I don't think a window seat is going to work very well w/ the shutters. If you have the shutters open then sitting in the window seat is going to be awkward and if you close them then you can't see out the window. Maybe it is just me but I would replace them w/ mini blinds or shades. Second, you are going to have to build the cases it so you can scribe them to the wall for final fitting. 1/2 inch plywood is fine for the back but I wouldn't rely on it to attach the whole thing to the wall. Somehow I would incorporate some sort of structural members for screwing the whole thing into the studs in the wall. The cases are going to be heavy, books are heavy, the construction should be beefy to support it all. Have you thought about the shelving? A 47" span for bookshelves is quite long and will have to be thicker that 3/4" plywood or they will sag terribly under the weight of books. I once built a built-in bookcase that had a 44" span and I used pine stair tread for the shelves. Stair tread is about 1" thick and that has worked fine.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I have thought about the shelving. The actual shelves will be approximately 41-42" wide. I was planning on using solid 1×2 banding on the fronts, and from what I've read, that should make them strong enough to have minimal deflection. Am I missing something here?

Regarding the base cabinet. What if I just used 3/4" all the way around, top, bottom and sides? Would that be beefy enough to support a bookshelf?

How do you guys build the back of your cabinets so that it can attach to the wall? I'm thinking you probably build the box and then attach it to the wall and trim out the gaps?


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Good explanation of your plans, noone.

I'll address your structural questions.

In the stock image it looks like the bookshelves stack right on the structure of the cabinets below-so the strength of the top is not an issue.

re: bookshelves: are they adjustable or fixed? Fixed, I think the front lip will keep them from smiling at you, but adjustable, I'd want lips front and back for that distance. All-veneer ply would be stronger than that with MDF substrate under the face veneer.

Your half inch back is unnecessary. Standard practice is 1/4 (or 5.2mm) back material. Attachment to the wall is through a nailer that appears at the top and bottom of the carcase, minimally 2.25 inches, easier if it is 3 or so.

If you want a flush fit to the wall at the window edge, you can rabbet the side of the cabinet there deeper than the 1/4" and scribe that bit of ply away as needed. Simpler designs just apply the back to the sides and then use 1/4×3/4 scribe mould to cover the gap. In that you're doing paint grade, this plan, well caulked, will yield a nearly seamless look and is much easier that scribing the side of the carcase.

I sense that you have the shop skills to execute the casework, but a lot of advance thinking about the installation will be necessary.

Will you sit this on the carpet? How will you deal with the tack strip, the receptacle and the existing base (at the sides)?

One other question: The depth numbers seem large. Bookshelves are typically 10 - 12" deep. Do you collect art, architecture or railroad books? Those need a little more space.

Finally, I sense you are concerned about the cabinet being tight to the wall. It actually takes very little force to pull them there and keep them, provided the base cabinet is sitting firmly on the floor and is true.

Kindly,

Lee


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Regarding the depth of the bookshelves, the wife wants to be able to put certain size Pottery Barn baskets on the upper shelves, so that is why I want the usable shelf depth to be 14".  I was planning on those shelves being 3/4" Birch ply, with 1×2" solid banding on the front. From what I've read, that should be just fine with little to no deflection. No MDF will ever be used on any project in my house…. 

I was only able to find 1/2" birch ply and not 1/4" at the Depot. I saw 1/4" Sandeply, but I didn't like the feel of that compared to the 1/2" birch ply, so I just went with the 1/2" birch ply. And I didn't like that hard board stuff either, at all.

I guess it sounds like it may just be easier to make the entire back out of 3/4" birch ply (it only costs 3 bucks more a sheet than the 1/2"), because I want the interior of the cab to be perfectly flat in the back. Then I can make a 3/4" box and attach that to the wall, then use scribe mold for where it meets the back wall, and then scribe the side of the face frame that hits the side wall. Then caulk. Seems like the way to go for my first cabinet making foray.

I was planning on using 3/4" fins to raise the cabinet up to the height I want it to be so that that the reveal above the 5 1/4" base would be exactly 2". My face frame bottom would extend all the way down past 2", say 3" and then I would just put a 3/4" thick filler strip underneath that to the floor. This way the 5 1/4" base would work nicely. The cabinets will be shimmed and installed on a concrete subfloor. I will be putting wood floor in afterwords and will account for the wood thickness when I build the height of the cabinet. I want the counter top to be at exactly 36" from the wood floor, so that will make my cabinet sides 36" + the height of the wood floor.

Again, is it okay to use a 3/4" thick top only for the top? Will this be strong enough for the upper bookcase? I was planning on having a 3/4" birch ply top screwed and glued in between the sides (i'm using Kreg pocket holes on this project), and would then trim it out with some nice chunky base cap to make the ledge. Then install the bookcase on top.

As for electrical, I will relocate the outlets to the insides of the cabinets. I am also am planning to twist into the electrical up in the attic to have switched upper bookcase lighting as well.

Thoughts?


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I like the fact this is your first project for your home, you have obviously put a lot of planning into it and I hope it goes well for you.
The thickness of the top really doesn't matter - as the load from the top will be transfered from the sides of the top part to the sides of the base cabinet.
One little tip for you is to bevel the inside of the side pieces where they scribe to the wall, it will be much easier to plane into shape.
Is this being painted in the workshop or in situ? If you are installing it already painted, make sure whatever finish is fully dry/cured. Place a sheet of thin card on the top before putting on the top piece to protect the paintwork. Get it ready to fit and slide the card out.
Before you start, make a note of how level the floor is and whether the walls are plumb and corners square - just so you don't have any nasty surprises when you come to fit it. Oh, and if you're using a pencil to mark that final fine scribe line on the job, wrap a bit of masking tape round the pencil to stop it rubbing 'pencil paint' on the wall.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok, my first carcass assembly went pretty well. I measured everything perfectly, all pieces. One side was off by maybe 1/32 - 1/64 in length. That was it. All other pieces were perfectly sized. I glued and screwed everything but the face frame and it seems that everything is not as square as I would have thought it would have been. The top is perfectly square. The bottom, not so much as you can see in the pictures. I spaced the floor out perfectly from the bottom of the side using a jig. When I measure the top surface of the bottom to the inside top edge on both sides, it's exactly the same front to back, top to bottom. Same with the bottom, bottom edge to the bottom of the side that touches the ground. Perfect measurement from front to back and top to bottom.

I'm thinking this may just be the flex of the wood and that the face frame, once installed, will straighten everything out, at least i'm hoping. When I measure diagonally corner to corner, it's off by about 3/16.

I also still need to install support fins across the bottom as well. (and doors)

Comments?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Any comments? Tell me, i'm worrying too much….. I guess I need to check the squareness of my kitchen base cabinets with a framing square for reference…..


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Noone
It looks like you just have your top and bottom butted inside the the sides,even if there screwed together I don't think that's strong enough. I like to have at least a rabbit on top and a dado on the bottom. If you have all your measurements equal when you put the back in assuming your rabbiting the back in that should square the case up.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Hmmm. I was planning on going backless. I figured the nailer on the top would suffice along with the face frame, since i've seen cabinets with that luan crap stapled on the back with only a nailer at the top. Did i figure wrong? I didn't build rabbets into the side panels so I'm not sure what I can do now that it's all glued and screwed.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm a overkill guy,it's just that books are very heavy. I know Ikea and others build book cases the way your doing it so if you feel good about it thats up to you. If you decided to put a back in it you could use a rabbiting bit and make a rabbit around the back edge even when it's together but it would take a little chiseling at the corners.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Will the face frame strengthen and square up the box?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Yes it will how do you plan on attaching the face frame and how wide is the material your using.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I just reread you post it looks like your going with 2" face frames that should help make it stronger. I noticed you have a gap in the middle of your framing square ,that might be from your ply having some bow in it,that could account for your out of square measurement your getting. Have you checked your square to make sure it's square?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

How do I check to make sure my square is square? I sure hope it is, it's brand new and what I used to set up my table saw and check every single one of my pieces used on this cabinet. It's a Johnson stainless steel carpenter square. *edit* I just googled how to check it. I will do it when I get home but i'm pretty sure it's good.

I am using 2" stiles and the rails will be 6 or 7" thick, to accomodate 5 1/4" base on the bottom with a 2" reveal and some trim molding for underneath the counter top.

Speaking of which, I measured the bottom board position within the sides to accommodate a 1 1/2" reveal above the 5 1/4" base, which was my original plan, but I changed my mind to use 2" frames since it looks better IMO. But I forgot to change my measurement up 1/2" for the floor after I made this decision. Oops. I guess my only option is to have an overhang on the bottom of the cabinet where the face frame lip is above the surface of the bottom, or, build 1/2" taller 'fins' for the bottom of the inside cabinet, since you won't see the bottoms of the sides anyways because they will be covered by either a wall or a window seat, or, just make the bottom reveal an 1 1/2".

What is the norm for face frame reveals on cabinets? Do you have an equal reveal on all 4 sides, or smaller reveals on the top and bottom? Remember, I want to attempt to have flush inset doors on this frame.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Ok
How you check a square is you take a piece of wood ,what ever you have and make sure you have a clean edge on the front ,you then place the square on the wood as like you normally would draw a pencil line and the flip the top of the square over face the opposite direction and place on the line. Looking at it it should line up with the pencil mark you made. If you want to draw another line just to be sure. If it does not line up with your first line your square is off or you mis-marked the line.
I'm not sure what your calling a reveal? Is it the space the faceframes hanging over the inside of the cabinet? Or the outside of the cabinet? The measuring mistake is that where the faceframe hangs over the floor?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

correction 
Sorry on the frame checking you flip the bottom that is on the edge of the wood not the top.

This should make it easier






I don't agree with where this person says to put punch marks if your square is out. you should put punch marks at the inside or outside corner of the square not on the short leg.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yeah, that was explained a little confusingly.

The bottom rail is going to be real tall, 6 and 3/4" tall so that the top edge of the bottom rail would sit flush with the top of the floor of the cabinet. This tallness of the bottom rail, allowed me to put a 5 1/4" baseboard on top of it, leaving 1 1/2" of the frame showing.

Except that I changed my mind and now I want to do 2" wide frame showing on all 4 sides of the cabinet. But since I forgot to adjust my measurement, only 1 1/2" of the bottom rail is going to show now, when I want 2" to show.

Should I just leave the top and bottom rail to show 1 1/2" and the stiles be 2 1/2" wide, or raise the cabinet off the ground an extra 1/2"?

What is the standard practice on face frames with inset doors? I'm assuming one always strives for all four sides of the frame to be of equal width.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Hmmmm. I could just do 2" stiles and 1 1/2" rails. I plan on using 1 1/2" banding on the front of the shelves of the upper part anyways. This should work just fine.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If I understand right I would trim the bottom rail maybe even more that the 1/2" since your going to put baseboard over it. The reason being is if the floor is not level even a little bit off you could have the middle of the case touching the floor and you won't be resting on the sides you will be resting on the middle of the faceframe. I hope I said that so it wasn't to confusing .
wider stiles look fine IMO


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yeah, I did plan on making it so that it would be about an inch to a half inch off the cement. I also plan on making the left side of the face frame about an 1/8 inch wider on the left stile and bevel the edge so that I can scribe it to the wall more easily.

Man, I sure hope that is a bow in the plywood sides since it is so tall (35")........ I was so super anal about cutting all the sides perfectly, making sure all edges were square, making sure all pieces were square and identically sizied, etc. I do remember that I was able to take that carpenter square and press it hard to the right and it did square up though, so that's encouraging.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

How did the square check come out.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm still at my day job right now and won't be able to check that until tonight when I get home.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!

My Johnson Carpenter square is NOT square! It failed the test and is off by about what you see in the pics about an 1/8 of an inch!!

Does this happen often?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Geez, nevermind. I think I jumped the gun too quickly. I tested a different (cheaper) square out at Lowes and it passed the test, and I took it back home and it did the same thing on the particular sheet of ply where the Johnson failed and it also failed. Must be the sheet of ply or the leaning angle I had on it….


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I just tested 3 cabinets around different parts of my house for squareness in the same area and they were all off by about what my pic shows, so I guess I am just being too anal.

I'm hoping that my face frame pulls the front together even better because the back is more square.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

It's a problem lot's of people have , I had a student ask me to pick up a framing square at HD for him I checked 8 of them and none of them were square. That's why I always ask my students if their square is square when they are checking their work . 
I didn't see a photo of your square noone.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

I agree with Jim about the rabbets and dadoes. In fact, being that it's a book case, I prefer to dado the shelves into the sides. For me, it just adds another layer of support and/or confidence in the structural aspect of the unit. Great job though. I hope it works out for you.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

The part pictured is just the base cabinet….

I have yet to build the bookcase part yet.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

Oh that's right. Also, did you ever finalize how you were going to attach the unit to the wall? I'm sorry for butting in.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I planned on leveling it with shims and then screwing it in to the back wall through a couple of construction screws in the nailer and a couple of screws through the left upper side.

This first cabinet is the left side where the left side buys against the wall. I planned on having the left side of the face frame about an 1/8" proud and would then scribe that to the side wall. Then use scribe molding on the parts that butt the back wall.

Good plan?


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

i think that should work. i just don't like the seeing the screw heads, unless of course you are going to paint the units. then you can alway countersink the screws, plug them, sand and paint.

also, i'm guessing you are going to scribe around the chair rail and base moulding. the scribing might be tricky so take your time and good luck.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Will construction screws countersink themselves? I thought I read those would. Yes the whole thing will be painted white by me.

The chair rail in this room is going to be removed. The base board where the built in installed will be removed also and transplanted to the front of the cabinet if possible.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

even screws made to countersink like deck screws really don't counter sink them self unless their in a really soft wood.
I would pre-drill and do a slight counter sink before installing screws. Of course you want the screws to go into studs in the wall. you can use screw covers to hide the screw heads. Like these.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=306


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok, so I need to decide on my stile and rail widths.

I bought some 2 1/2" wide poplar and was going to rip it down to 2" wide, but then thought, "hey this looks pretty good!".

How wide do you make your stiles and rails? My plan now is to have 2 1/2" wide stiles on the cabinets and bookcases and 1 1/2" wide rails. But then the 2 1/2" wide stiles on the bookcases will leave 1 3/4" of face frame overhang on the inside of the bookcases, so i'm not sure if I like that.

Should I just make the stiles 2" wide on both the cabinets and the bookcases?

Is it possible to have different stile widths for the cabinets and bookcases, say, 2 1/2" stiles for the cabinets but 2" for the bookcases?

If I doubled up the plywood on the upper bookcase sides, would the cabinet below hold it and not bow?

My plan was to construct the upper bookcase portion 'backless' with just a top and bottom nailer 5" tall between the two sides. I was then going to paint the wall the same color and caulk in the nailers. So I planned on screwing the bookcase into the counter of the cabinet and also nailing it to the back wall through the upper and lower nailer. Is it correct to assume that this will take some of the load off the cabinet???

Thoughts?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Face frames are usually sized in proportion to the project that's being made and it's intended use. The thing you want to consider in a book case is will it make it difficult to take books in and out due to over size face frames. In this case I don't think a 1/2" will make that much difference taking that into consideration it's all a matter of how you feel it looks to you.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Well, if I use a 2 1/2" stile on the book case, that would be about a 1 3/4" inside gap.

What about the weight of the bookcase with doubled up sides (i was thinking two pieces of 3/4 on each side with 3/4" spacers sandwiched between them) on the cabinet? Will the fact that it will be screwed in to the wall through the back nailers and sides and also into the cabinet counter top relieve some of it's weight? I'm concerned about the lower cabinet somehow sagging.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Not sure where your talking about spacers? If your concerned about weight on the lower cabinet you might still consider putting a back in it ,but if the face frame is properly attached that will make it strong too.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

so are you saying the side panels of your base will be 2 1/4" thick? ...meaning 2 sides panels @1 1/2" + the spacers @3/4"?

that seems a bit much, don't you think? it might just make the unit considerably heavier. like jim mentioned, if you secure the faceframes properly, you should be okay. i like to use a half lap joint when building my face frames. i find this to be pretty darn strong.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes, I was referring to 2 1/4" thick sides on the upper bookcase part while the base cabinet had just 3/4" sides. Now I'm thinking I should just stay with the 3/4" sides on the uppers with 2 1/2" stiles. Should look fine I guess. A lot less hassle.

The face frame on the base cabinet will be assembled with kreg pocket screws and screwed onto the front. The face frame on the upper i was just going to nail and glue on. I was planning on screwing the bookcase into the top on the base cabinet and then into the side wall and back wall through the top and bottom nailers.

Good?


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

sounds good and secure. i do use the kreg jig as well. i love that thing. however, i also glue the joints for added strength. i too like the look of a wider face frame…as long as it's in proportion to the rest of the unit.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yeah, I have been gluing and screwing everything as well. Everything seems really sturdy.

I'm still concerned about going backless on everything. Do you think I'll be ok as long as I have nailers on the backsides and everything and the face frames are glued and screwed?

Remember, this will be paint grade and I have caulk and super smooth drywall.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

i think it will be fine. but you can always add a back. perhaps a 1/4 luan ply or something. this can also help square it up.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok, so how do I add a back now that the nailer is already there? Would it be ok to just glue and screw a back right on to the back since I didnt have any rabbets cut into the sides to accept a back? The scribe mold door stop would cover this.

Or how do I use a router to put in rabbets on the sides beneath the top nailer shown in my earlier posted cabinet pic? I'm wondering how I would route a rabbet through the already installed floor of the cabinet.

Or, do I just set a back in between the sides and beneath the nailer and just glue and screw it?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you decide to put a back on your cabinet you can just glue and pin nail it or you can rabbit the back with a rabbiting bit . I assume you have used a router before ? all you have to do is set the depth to a little bit more than the thickness of the back material and route the back inner lip of the top bottom and sides and then chisel any corners that the router could not reach. If you have not used a router much you might want to clamp another thick board to the outside to help balance the router on something at least as thick as a 2×4.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/mkerabbets.html


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Things are coming together slowly, but surely.

The cabinet squared up pretty nicely against the face frame. I took my time with the face frame and got it as square as I could earthly get it. Diagonals of the frame are spot on. 3 corners are perfect. One corner is off by maybe 1/32 across the length of the long side of the framing square. When I put a square piece of scrap plywood in each corner, it doesn't rattle or move, it's nice and tight. I guess I'm good and will know for sure when I get the doors, but I really don't know how it could get any squarer than this.

When I order the doors, how big do I order them? Do I order them tight and plane off the excess? Just order them with 1/16 gap all around the sides?

Also, I did a dry fit on the cabinet and realized that I need to do something with this chair rail. I was thinking of shimming up the cabinet so that the top is even with the top of the chair rail. When I do that, I need to figure out how to blend the small crown that will trim out the 3/4" top with the chair rail. Some kind of corner block? Ideas?

Thanks again for the responses. I sincerely appreciate all the help and great advice I have been receiving on this forum.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Are you going to have inset doors ? How did you attach your face frame ? I don't remeber how you were going to do that ,if they are not attached very well the doors could pull them of. As far as your trim is concerned do a search on you tube under coping , that's what I think might work.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes, inset doors.

I screwed and glued the face frame together and then screwed that to the cabinet body on all four sides. Kreg pocket screws. I didn't glue the face frame on, I just screwed that on.

Strong enough?

I thought coping and some caulk could work.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Sounds good ,that should hold up fine. Do you want inset doors? If you do and you know your opening in your face frame is square then I would order doors to fit exactly to your openings and trim them to fit.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes, the plan was inset doors from the start. Love the way those look. I want euro hinges, I'm assuming I will mount them on the inside if the frame. So many to choose from. I want soft close and keep in mind that a door I. Each pair will be next to a wall. Can you tell me which model hinge to buy? I think you recommended Salice brand?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Inset doors are a lot tougher to fit it will be a good learning experience. euro hinges take a special bit to drill and a special jig or a drill press to drill. I usually use Blum hinges , you buy them according to how wide you want the doors open in degrees such as 90,120 degrees and the clips they connect too vary according to whether your connecting them to the cabinet or the face frame. I don't know if you have a Louis and company in your area but they can be very helpful when ordering hinges,and less expensive. I'm not sure if the sell to the public.From my experience most of the box stores employees don't really know that much about hinges other than if they carry them or not. If you have a good local hardware with good customer service they would be who I'd talk to.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Do you use an edge sander or hand plane to trim your doors down?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you have a edge sander it's easier. if all you have is a plane that will work too. How every you do it you want to take it slow and keep checking the fit. I like to use 1/16"to 1/8" shims all the way around to maintain equal gaps.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

All I have is this. Will this work?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

No that would be all but impossible to use. Do you have a belt sander or plane?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

That is a belt sander pictured. Just without the belt. I'm not sure how I could evenly wear down a door edge with this though. Seems like it would be hard to control pressing a door against a belt sander from the top.

It sounds like i need to buy a hand planer since those are cheaper than edge sanders (relatively speaking).

Wow, i've already spent a small fortune on tools for this project!!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Be careful what plane you buy some of them are not worth having.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

What are your thoughts on this article about fitting doors? I would be using euro hinges, so a lot of this article does not apply to me, but I do like the bit of using a flush bit on a router to shave the doors since I do not own an edge sander or hand planer.

http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/techniques/archive/2009/10/14/how-to-hang-inset-doors.aspx


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Very good Idea sorry I didn't think of it last night .I've done it a lot. You just have to be carefull when you come to end grain so you don't have the corners blow out. You can avoid that buy doing a climb cut(right to left routing) the last couple inches before you get to corners. If you think your dead on square you could still order doors under size just enough for your spacing around the door, you just have to remember that the gap where two doors meet is only half the gap of the rest of the doors on one side. It's all up to you as to how comfortable you feel with a router and how square your face frame is.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

noone did you think about using non-mortise hinges? they would be easier to install compared to the euro hinge. but with the obvious different look.

i also like the idea using a router to take down the edges of the doors. i've done that in the past. if you have a router table, i think it would make life a bit easier as well.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

No, I only want concealed hinges.

I'm thinking I am going to make some plywood doors as test doors to test my routing skills before I try them out on purchased doors. ...... Off to Home Depot to find some laminate counter samples….

What else do I need to hang doors? Can I buy a 35mm bore at Home Depot?


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

ok. i think you can by the bore bit (like a forstner bit) at home depot. they sell them in the same aisle as the hinges. i think it comes with a template as well.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Here's what you need

http://www.amazon.com/Steelex-D1026-35-Millimeter-Hinge-Boring/dp/B0000DD1G3
not necessarily that brand.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Arghhh.

I just checked my frame and it is not square in the top left and bottom right corners. It's off by a 1/16 of an in each of these corners. What now? Should I even attempt to fit doors to this wide opening? It's basically off by a 16th of an inch across 39 and 1/8".


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

the last photo looks more like and 1/8" out ,To bad ,I hate to ask again but is this square,square? the easiest way to go would be to put overlay doors on. If you can't live with that you can try and trim your doors to match.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

you can still do a full overlay door with the hidden euro hinges


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Here's something you might need

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/36174


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok I guess I give up. My out of square cabinet must have thrown the frame out of square when I attached it. The good news is its no worse out of square than any other cabinet in my house.

I guess I need to remove that face frame and put a 1.5 inch frame on?

And start researching full overlay doors…...


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Depending on the kind of doors you select it my not be necessary to remove and start over on you faceframe
Just so you know it takes some practice to get every thing just right on cabinets,so it is not out of the ordinary to have to over come a number of challenges on your first set. Just hang in there. Here's a brief description of different types of cabinet doors.

http://www.kitchens.com/products/cabinets/doors/types.aspx


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I'd like to know where to buy ANY of the doors on this website.

Very nice…...

http://www.houzz.com/full-overlay-cabinet-doors/p/32


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Good question. Many sites are set up for professionals on a whole sale level.

I don't know if you saw this one, it looks like it's set up to order on line.

http://www.patriotcabinet.com/kitchen-cabinet-doors/arch-raised-panel.html


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

have you thought about making your own doors? the first set of doors i ever made were made with just my table saw.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

That could be an option. I'm still wondering if I could fit flush inset doors to the opening and it still look good.

How do I make doors with just my table saw?


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

you could make rails and stiles using a table saw (if you have one) using a tongue and groove joint. then you can use a 1/4 birch plywood or luan panel to fit into the rails and stiles. it's actually not that difficult. if you want to dress up the door even more, you can inlay a strip of moulding around the inside of the door as well as round over the edges with a router or hand plane. i could not find any instructions on this other than what someone did on lumberjocks. here's the link. this is pretty much what i was referring to.

http://lumberjocks.com/patron/blog/12915


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Great link. Thanks for sharing. Looks like I need to go ahead and buy that dado set.

Are you able to buy molding locally that is small enough for use on cabinet doors? My lumber yards here in Jacksonville FL don't sell anything like this.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

That's great you want to make your own doors. If you have a very inexpensive table saw the arbor might not be big enough for a dado blade to fit on,so I would check that before you buy a dado blade.
Just noticed on an earlier post you said your photo was a belt sander I was referring to a hand held one, like this
http://www.amazon.com/Makita-9903-3-Inch-21-Inch-Variable/dp/B000056NOC/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_0


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

they sell very small detailed moulding at homedepot and/or lowes.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

What kind of clamps do I need to buy to assemble doors? 4 pipe type clamps?

I also would like other opinions to see if it is worth trying to fit doors to an opening that is 3/32 not square over 39 1/8" across.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I guess it depends on how many other wood working projects you plan on doing in the future. I possibly have 10 different styles of woodworking clamps. The least expensive coming from Harbor freight and the ones I consider the best clamps out there Jet clamps The HF clamps start as low as $ 10.00 for 30" clamps and the jets in that price range for about $30.00

http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-bar-clamp-96207.html

http://www.amazon.com/Jet-70440-2-Parallel-Clamp-Pack/dp/B000UBF4K0/ref=pd_cp_hi_1

the best value are pipe clamps

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-3-4-quarter-inch-heavy-duty-cast-iron-pipe-clamp-31255.html

For other folks take on clamps you might do a search here on LJs ,the subject has been brought up a good number of times


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

So I do need pipe type clamps to square up the frame when gluing? That was my real question….. Thanks again.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If it's just for squaring up your door yes and know. You usually have to clamp doors up when you make them and if they are out of square you *can* use one clamp across a corner to hold it square until the glue dries. If your trying to clamp the door out of square to match your face frame it may be possible but I've never done it. If you can make the doors the correct size and glue them up fast enough you could place them in the faceframe opening with some wedges the correct size for your gap and let the glue dry and then your doors will match the face frames,but that's a lot of (IFs) and probably a very frustrating thing to try and succeed at with out having the doors fall apart,or gluing the doors or wedges in place.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

I was thinking about maybe making the doors square and then try to fit them to the opening by using a flush router bit to trim them down. I'm just wondering if it would look noticeable that the doors were not perfectly square. That's the ultimate question. Thoughts?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

That should work out as long as you don't get blow out and you measure carefully.


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## FredIV (Nov 9, 2011)

i haven't been around for a while. how did this project turn out?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Still working on it. I have a long way to go. Life is getting in the way. 

The lower cabinets are constructed. That's all i have done. I still need to make doors, the countertops for the cabinets, and the upper bookcases! I have recently switched to painting mode, and after much experimentation, I have ended up buying an Earlex 6900 which I think will get me the furniture grade finish I'm looking for.

I'll update this thread with more questions and pics.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Just finished installing the lower cabinets and caulked them in (last night). One is 3/16 of an inch lower than the other. It doesn't look noticeable though. Right click and click view picture to see the full width.

Long way to go still.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Folks. I need help. I just finished this week pulling the units all apart. I had the upper bookcases on and screwed in. Then I realized that they were off in height by a 1/4 of an inch probably because of the floor. So I'm resetting everything a little more carefully.

Before I rescrew the cabinets to the wall, how do I get these two lower cabinets to be perfectly square to each other with the front and back lining up perfectly of each? It needs to be square so i can insert the window seat, among other obvious reasons. It's drywall so it's not flat. This is really bugging me and I could sure use some experience here.

Thanks again.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Shingle shims and a straightedge from the front of one to the front of the other.

Kindly,

Lee


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Getting ready to install crown at the top of the built ins that will eventually wrap around the entire room. I planned on installing it flush to the side walls and then will cope in the sides of the room.

This is my first time running crown.

Am I correct to assume that I need to start on the side with the lowest part of the ceiling? The right side the ceiling to where the bottom of the crown needs to rest on the right built in is 7 1/2". On the left side, it measures 7 5/8". So it's off by an 1/8" there. In the middle of the run across the built ins, it's 7 3/4". So we're talking a variance of 1/8" to a 1/4".

How do I best handle this?


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Slowly, but surely i'm getting there. I still have to finish the seat, make doors and caulk and paint. This has been quite the first woodworking project starting with zero tools.


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## noone (Mar 6, 2012)

Finished up over a month ago and forgot to post pics so here they are. I still am waiting on the window's plantation shutter and will do flooring and closet after bathroom is remodeled back there.


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