# Need advice on installing T&G cedar inside



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

My beach vacation is over and I am back home working on my summer projects. My big summer project for the third year in a row is a room addition for a hot tub and I could sure use some expert advice from carpenter type LJs! I am at the stage now of finishing out the interior by adding cedar tongue and groove horizontally on the walls. I have a couple of issues and questions on how to best go about it.

(1) The longest boards I can get are 16' long, but my longest wall is 23'.
How would you join the ends to make the 16' boards cover 23'? Should I just butt them end to end, overlap with 45º bevels, route them with a T&G bit, or something else?

(2) This is probably more of an esthetic issue than a skill, but I would again appreciate the advice of someone who has experience. How would you line up the end joints on the boards? Should they be randomly staggered, a bricklayer pattern, evenly lined up in one or two places on the wall, or a seam down the center?

If it matters, the wall in question used to be an exterior wall of poured concrete. It has styrofoam about 2" thick over the concrete, and I have attached 1"x2" boards vertically every foot or so for nailing the T&G.

(3) While I am asking questions, what kind of finish (or do I need a finish?) would you use on cedar T&G to best deal with occasional steam from a hot tub? I have plenty of windows and skylights to vent the moisture so I don't expect it will be constantly damp in there. I'll add a dehumidifier if it seems necessary.

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mary Anne, I have no experience actually doing this, but the way I've usually seen it done is with butt joints, randomly spaced.

I think I would leave it unfinished.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks, Charlie. I appreciate your input. I am probably guilty of overthinking this project and making up too many options. I just want to do it 'right', you know?

I would still love to hear from anyone who has done this before.

Thanks!


----------



## Gary (Jul 24, 2006)

My shop is vertical board and batten cypress; I'm residing my home the same.
I use 45 degree miters where the ends meet with random spacing-don't want to create a straight line
which someone's eye would be drawn to-with the upper board over the lower one.

The tongue and groove floors in our home are T&G on the ends too; it's more work but worth it IMHO.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks a lot, Gary. Do you feel the 45º miters make the joint blend better than a butt joint?
Maybe I'll give that a try with a dab of Tite Bond III and a couple pin nails.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I have done a few hundred siding jobs…butt joints on interior walls will work just fine. No one has ever asked for or spec'ed 45 degree butt joints.


----------



## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

I did my cabin at the lake with tongue and groove cedar. Since you are doing a room that is going to have a hot tub there will be a lot more moisture than normal. I would 45 degree the end joints. Randomly stagger all joints, do not put a finish on cedar, let it breathe. Also try to blind nail eveything. Exposed nail heads will go black from humidity.


----------



## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey Mary Anne,
If it were me doing this for you I would be using but joints. The tongue and groove will help hold the butt joints together combined with staggering the joints. 
You could miter the ends if you want but its not necessary for this application. Tongue and groove on the ends is not necessary for a wall as it is for a floor, unless you plan to make a V groove joint to accent the joint.


----------



## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

I am planning to do the ceiling of our living room in T and G cedar in the next couple of weeks, and plan T and G ing the ends as well. Good luck.


----------



## Ken90712 (Sep 2, 2009)

I have to go with the butt joints a well, as long as they are square they will form a tight joint supported by the T & G. Also the advice on the hidden nails is very important and will give it a first class look to boot. Have fun and good luck! Can't wait to see the pics!


----------



## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Definately butt joints, but chamfer the ends the same as the sides. You can do this with a router, or more quickly with a miter saw (a SCMS makes it easy). I second the hidden nails, nail on an angle through the tongue. As for finish, that's up to you, but be aware the cedar will gray without one. I'm going to try to put a picture in here, wish me luck


From Abraham jobs


----------



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i would go with a butt joint mary ann..ive done my whole house with antique southern heart pine and a tight butt joint looks just great…try not to have any nails heads exposed and the will also get very hot if someone leans against them while sitting in there….also you should leave the wood unsealed…these rooms will need maintenance and if it were me i would just lightly sand them every once in awhile and apply some cedar oil to the wood…it helps the wood to not get dry rot…adds that nice cedar smell back into the room and keeps the wood looking like cedar should look…would love to see the room when your done….so pictures please…grizzman, p.s..the easiest way to lightly sand these is with a sanding pole…and hand rubbing the oil onto the wood wont take long at all..you can use a paint brush or even a short nap roller…just a few ideas…


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

*Hey, guys,*

Thanks for all the hints, tips, and opinions. FWIW, on the walls I have already finished -normal wood framing, insulation, and green board- the nails are hidden in the tongues. Leaving exposed nails is out of the question for my tastes. I am going for a rustic look, and the cedar achieves that; exposed nails just look like bad craftsmanship to me.

I am only running into this issue on one wall in the area between the top of the doors and where the cathedral ceiling slants back far enough to use the 16' boards. (I should post some pics.)

*Tom1*,
I attached the furring strips with 3 1/2" Tapcons through the styrofoam into the concrete. They are solid.

*Gregn* and *ken90712*,
Good point about the T&G holding it together and supporting the joint. I guess it will come down to whether I want to hide the joints or accentuate them. I was thinking the 45º miters or butt joints might blend in better, but the chamfer to match the T&G may be the better way. It looks classy on *nailbanger2's* ceiling. To do something that looks intentional often looks superior to trying hide it. I'm going to experiment with both methods.

*grizzman*,
If it comes out looking as nice as the pics I've seen of your place, I will be happy. I haven't made my final decision yet, but I am thinking I will probably do an oil based sealer to keep the cedar color but avoid that extra maintenance.

Maybe I will do a blog with pictures of what I have done already. Anyway, thanks again, fellas; I really appreciate your feedback and help.


----------



## Gary (Jul 24, 2006)

Mary Ann, I see now there's one difference between our jobs: interior vs. exterior.
You asked, "Do you feel the 45º miters make the joint blend better than a butt joint?" 
I believe outside it's more important-don't want a place water can easily creep through.
That's the primary reason I chose a 45º miter on the board ends.
Hard to say if you would require it inside.
Moreover, it might be easier to get good looking butt joints than miters.


----------



## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks, MaryAnne, I didn't know if you'd be able to see them. For some reason, all the pics of ceilings I've done don't show the joints too well. BTW, could you please keep your pets under control? I had to pick up trash again this morning. Little bandits !


----------



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

question here mary ann…is the ceiling in this room flat or slanted…if its flat…you could get condensation drips …if at all possible a slanted ceiling is better…2 inch rise for every foot…just thought i would throw that into the mix…is there any chance you would post some pictures of this project..i would like to see how its looking and then the finished shots…..


----------



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

oh yea…your pet there must be a fast little guy…he was in my back yard last night…looked like he had a sign…will work for food…lol…you better start kicking in some more grub…


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Here are some pics to give you guys a better idea of what I am doing. The room is shaped like an octagon sliced in half. The hot tub will go on the long wall that I am working on now. I'll have to joint the boards in the area above the doors and part way up the ceiling. As I noted above, the furring strips are attached with 3 1/2" Tapcons through the styrofoam into the concrete. There is OSB behind the Tyvek. This was originally an outside wall sided with Hardie Board. -Door on the left leads to my shop. 










The boxed in area (for my shower vent) above the door in this next pic is going to be another headache. The wall and door was supposed to be set back so the wall would be continuous… that was the point I finally fired everyone and took over the job myself.









This is one of the walls I have already completed. The verticals in the corners are there because I found out too late that the GC I hired was not capable of figuring the angles for the walls. Every wall is a different odd angle and too many angles to fight to put in the siding. This way, I was able to make butt joints up to pieces I ripped to fit the angles. Now I wish I would have thought to chamfer the edges; it would have looked better.


----------



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

well that's certainly a good size job to handle..its looking great..your cedar is beautiful…i love the knotty wood..and cedar is one of my favorites…great job and have fun doing the rest of it…wish i lived closer..would love to lend a hand….grizzman


----------



## rimfire7891 (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Mary Anne

Depending on what length mix you have I would not try and have random joints. You will have some line up and some not. I would suggest you use on long piece from one end a short piece and one long piece from the other end and a short piece. If you have pieces of equal length alternate between the the long/short short long alternations. Then repeat the three courses again. I feel a deliberate pattern looks better than a random pattern that is not truly random. The other thing to keep in mind is that you are very close to the ceiling when you are installing it and will tend to see every fault. Once you are on the floor, doing your regular thing you won't look up much other than the odd glance. Your guests won't notice it other than to give you compliments. You won't get any negative comments because most people won't have a clue how to do any better.
The knots in the cedar are random and will disguise any pattern you create with the *butt* joints.

Thanks jb


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

*Grizzman*,
Yeah, it would be nice if you were closer and could lend a hand. It would be nice to see your friendly face.

But the good news is all the help I get here from LJs all over when I get stuck. You guys are golden!

*tom1*
Thanks for checking on my methods rather than assuming I am clueless.  Underestimating me and my knowledge of the trades was the fatal flaw for the GC. I am an unskilled contractor's worst nightmare. Anyway, the Tapcons are solid and that siding is going nowhere. I wouldn't say I am shooting for high end, just quality craftsmanship.

I've solved my contractor problem by firing them all and putting all permits in my name except electrical. I lucked in to a fabulous electrician! Even though I am not licensed in this state, with my experience, the inspector has no problem with me handling the plumbing and HVAC. When I need extra hands, I hire guys with absolutely no experience in the trades and pay them a fair wage… they are happy to earn, learn, and do it my way. It is taking me forever to get it done this way, but it was taking the contractors forever to screw things up.

Thanks, *rimfire7891*. Good point about the knots helping to disguise things, too. Also good point about my guests not noticing anything but the overall feel. Wish I could say the same about myself. LOL

I'll be butting boards again tomorrow and put up some pics if I get to that point in the wall. Wish me luck!!!


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't know where you live, *Tom*, but there are places here in The South where the rules of Real World don't apply. Some places you only have to pay the fee for a GC license… no test, no experience necessary. Blue prints for a small job like this… not necessary for permit.

The thing that hurts is that I did draw up complete plans that included all measurements and angles. I found out too late he wasn't capable of dealing with the "unusual" angles, and he was not a big enough man to admit it. We got nose to nose and toe to toe with him trying to lay the blame everywhere on everyone else. In the end, I have to say it is my fault for not being here on the job, on his butt, checking every step of the way. You think someone comes highly recommended and you pay them to do a job means they'll do the job you pay for… in my dreams. I should have known better.

Oh well, it's looking good now. I can't keep crying about it.


----------



## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Looks to me like you are doing just fine on your own, keep up the good work.


----------



## akillian (Sep 18, 2010)

If it where me, I would but them together and add t&g to the ends. This will also help keep it tight. Just make sure you stager the seems.


----------



## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i think putting t and g on the ends is over kill on a wall…the horizontal tand g will be very sufficient …as this is what you have already done on your existing walls…its truly a beautiful room..one that i would have a hard time leaving…..so is there going to be a steam room in this room also or is this going to be where just a hot tub is going to be…....


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I love the smell of cedar in the morning.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

It is taking longer than anticipated since I had to move a short portion of wall to correct yet another of the GC foul ups. It was either move the wall or have a 1" offset. I just wanted to give y'all an update that I should have the wall covered this afternoon. I went with staggered butt joints. Although I like the idea of chamfering the ends, I decided I wanted it to blend as much as possible. I I think it is looking pretty good.

Yeah, *tom1*, it sucks not being able to expect a professional job from a contractor when I, a pooped out old plumber, can do better on my own. I've had my fight, legal and otherwise, with the contractor (and won) and I have moved on. Oh, it's not high school kids, btw… I don't have that much patience. LOL I have a good, hard-working guy who was in need of a job helping me out.

*grizzman*,
No steam room planned… yet. But you never know.  We'll see what happens after I get this one finished. This is going to be so convenient having this room right next to my shop. I will be able to take a shower and a soak in the tub before coming upstairs. The winter view will be gorgeous and I know I will be spending a lot of time here. It is going to be heavenly just not having to tramp through the snow to get to my shop.

Thanks again, everyone. Barring any other unforeseen difficulties, I'll upload some more pics this evening. Meanwhile… back to work!


----------



## PBthecat (Jan 18, 2010)

If you're interested http://www.finlandiasauna.com has some good information on building saunas…


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Progress! 


















If everything goes according to plan (don't laugh!) I should be moving the tub into the room by the end of next week. I'll have to work around it to do the ceiling, but the important thing to me is to get it in there before the snow starts falling. I do not want to spend another winter soaking in the garage.


----------



## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Looking good, MaryAnne. I agree, I think the butt joints look fine without the chamfers. I actually had to magnify the pics to see them. Keep it going!


----------

