# How much can I charge for my hourly labor



## Patrickgeddes14 (Nov 27, 2018)

I've decided I need to raise my prices because it's just not worth the time for the prices I've been charging. In my price calculation I basically try for $2-$5 an hour for labor. I enjoy making the furniture but my company offers overtime which is $20+ per hour and it's far less pressure than making stuff in the shop, I'm a Carpenter so our work takes less precision and creativity which is nice sometimes, just show up and go. What does you think is a reasonable rate per hour for me to charge for my furniture efforts. Thanks


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## Snipes (Apr 3, 2012)

At least $40.. anything less handcuffs the rest.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I changed overtime prices when I work hourly. But it depends on what it is. your time might be 3 hrs to do a project mine might be 2hrs.

I would never hire a hobby woodworker on a project hourly.


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## Heyoka (Oct 21, 2018)

My flat fee is $25.00/ hour.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Wow, you guys must not be figuring your overhead. Just supplementing a hobby. I don't know how any professional shop, all things considered like insurance and taxes, can be in business if not generating 90+ an hour.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

What overhead , it's side work…pick and choose…


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

I try to get $20/hr + matls but I'm not dependent on the $$$


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## Patrickgeddes14 (Nov 27, 2018)

Yea that's my situation. I'm in debt so making the most money for my time is important rn. Which is making me think I can do the tables but only for 40plus per hr. The work at my. Company is on the table most the time so I might as well make it so the time spent on furniture is more profitable..


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Yea that s my situation. I m in debt so making the most money for my time is important rn. Which is making me think I can do the tables but only for 40plus per hr. The work at my. Company is on the table most the time so I might as well make it so the time spent on furniture is more profitable..
> 
> - Patrickgeddes14


This is an old topic that's been discussed on multiple forum for the last 20 years. Charging by the hour is a funny thing between woodworkers because of skill levels.

You need to decide if your skill level warrants such a price. Can you not charge a total vs the hour?

We have no ideal what your making


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

I'll give you another perspective. Possibly from your employers point of view.
I just laid off 50% of my staff in the shop. The guys that are still working are the guys that work hard, have good attitudes and work overtime when I need them too, without hesitation. 
The ones that got laid off recently and in the past were the ones who where a pain in the ass to get to work overtime. They always pissed and moaned, or had 'appointments' that they couldn't break….had to feed their grandmas cat…
Not saying your employer rolls this way, but many do.

If I have overtime available, I expect the guys in the shop to work it, not go home and build tables. 
Maybe they could make more money making tables…I don't care.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> I ll give you another perspective. Possibly from your employers point of view.
> I just laid off 50% of my staff in the shop. The guys that are still working are the guys that work hard, have good attitudes and work overtime when I need them too, without hesitation.
> The ones that got laid off recently and in the past were the ones who where a pain in the ass to get to work overtime. They always pissed and moaned, or had appointments that they couldn t break….had to feed their grandmas cat…
> Not saying your employer rolls this way, but many do.
> ...


I always took the overtime In the shop. I worked a lot 11pm's trying to do side work. When the side work exceeded the regular job I made the choice to open my own shop…..

Side work really should be left for weekends. I've seen a lot of guys burning the candle on both ends trying make the big dollar while the company they work suffers with your lack or energy and yawning….


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

I own a manufacturing plant, and have been costing for three decades. There are several general rules of thumb, but for woodworking, I would suggest writing down the wage, add in costs of employees (generally about 135% of wage), for overhead burden, multiply that number by two. Now multiply that number by percentage profit desired and add resultant numbers together. Estimate number of hours to do he job, then multiply by your labor and burden amounts.

Now figure your raw materials, adding that cost to the estimated labor and burden and this will give you your customer estimate.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

There are countless threads here on Ljs about this subject you might check some of those out. So many people base what the charge on an hourly rate for their labor without considering the cost of material, the time and gas it takes to go get material, the cost of rent & utilities in your shop, the cost of tools to purchase you are wearing out a little at a time. the time it takes to design projects. 
You need to develop a shop rate based on many of those on the above list for your own calculation of what to charge, many people stop there and charge by the hour but I also consider what the market will bear. As an example, if someone wants a custom design desk and you use all the above factors and come up with $380 but others are selling similar products online for $850-$1200 you need to adjust your cost perhaps 20% below the lowest price if you are just getting started . The reverse is true too, that many woodworkers considering themself a professional woodworker actually charge less than material, so you can't compare your prices to them and their products if you really want to make money in woodworking (a profit). You have to be prepared for customers to not accept your bid because there are all of these hobbyists that ruin the market place for pros giving their products away to be nice and just want something to do. or customers that want you to beat prices of low-quality furniture from Ikea or Walmart, prices that more times than not that you material what your material would cost you. The public is unaware of the difference in materials, joinery or finish so you have to educate them why your work is worth more. Many times people working out of there garage get lots of customers because of they give things away or sell products at a loss, once you do that those are the only kind of jobs you will get.

https://www.artisticwoodstudio.com/relax


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Now "how much an hour" and "how much for the job" are two different questions. The "hour" figures vary regionally, over time, with inflation, etc. So what the "best" answer is today, may well be wrong tomorrow.

For decent size jobs the old man used to bid 2X materials. This was real close to time + materials answers without having to do all the cipherin'. Since it's a ratio and not an absolute, it absorbs lots of the variables that impact the hourly rate. Material costs tend to track the regional cost of living and this formula automatically compensates for that.

So ultimately you tune the 2X ratio to 2.5X or whatever works best. This also encourages you to work faster since you're being paid by the job and not the hour!

Customers appreciate knowing the fixed cost instead of an endless T+M job.

Bidding using the materials ratio sharpens your estimation skills quickly.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

What's 2x, 3x or 40 times…


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The *materials* (sigh)


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

1


> The *materials* (sigh)
> 
> - Madmark2


Doesn't work… a clueless way to bid


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Really? Have you refigured a T+M job to see? Last kitchen reface job I did was $1250 2X matls and $1285 T+M.

This is how you compute the correct ratio for you. Take the last 10 jobs you did on T+M and total them up along with the materials and then divide it out to get *your* ratio.

Not to mention you get more jobs bidding fixed rate than T+M.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Refacing goes for around $100 -$125 an opening. I did refacing for Blystone cabinets in the 90's.I did refacing in my shop when I had a business and charged $85 an opening.

Look in a kitchen how many doors, how many drawers x $85. This was in 2005…

I'll upload some refacing pictures for you tonight….


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Remember. ...it's a hobby forum UT some of us are or were professionals. Where not guessing prices…


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

What you should charge has been covered above fairly well, I think, so I wont chime in there. I can offer a few tips though from what I have learned as a contractor.

1. Know your market. Is most of your work going to be for lower middle class folks? Are you going to be targeting folks on fixed incomes, like seniors in retirement communties. Will you be doing mostly contract for realtors who want only to be done fast and cheap. Upper middle class neighborhoods? And so on. For example, I would alwys give the widowed senior a break however I could, ie., making up a loss on labor with the offset of what I make on materials, maybe skip a sanding between coats of finish, and the like. I would also chat her up, and she would make me lunch- money saved there.

2. Dont EVER point out slight defects to a client. 99% of people will never notice them. But if you do point out something like that to them, that is all they see whenever they look at it. And when their friends ask, hey who did that work, they will say, ah so and so, but look he kinda messed this up. These "friends" will be your next clients if you are spoken well of. If there are major defects, then you shouldnt be selling that work anyway.

3. Part of your profit can come from the discounts you get on materials. Of course, the more you buy from a distributor, the higher the discount will climb. You pay for the materials at your discount cost, and charge the client what the full cost would be. If you are new to the game, and arent getting much in the way of discount from suppliers, you can find another contractor, maybe one you have worked for in the past, and use their account. All this is standard practice for contractors. Sometimes you can buy "onsale" items and compound savings further with your discount. Of course, you are not going to get these terms at big box outlets.

4. Lots of ways to save time on projects, and thus increase profit margin. Trading off for a more simple joinery method, making jigs to do multiple parts, etc. Most of that will come with experience. But, I bet if you opened a thread here about this topic, many would jump on it.

5. Dont be afraid to lose a contract because you high-balled it. You win some, and you lose some. And be CONFIDENT in your work. People will notice if you arent.

Hope that helps some. Good Luck


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> Hi, I am not sure how far you want to go with your business but I think I can help. I ve owned my own woodworking business since 1994 and have made and average of $12k a month! Now obviously some months are better than others but on average it has been around $12k a month. If you would like to know more I have a website that explains how I started and how I RUN my business. I think you could learn some things from my site. Please check it out ONLY if you are interested in making money using your woodworking talents. I wish you guys all the best of luck.
> Jim Morgan
> www.woodworkingbiz.com
> 
> ...


Thank You, But I'm not interested in buying your book.
Someone may, but this site is about sharing the knowledge, not selling it.

Contact the administration and buy an ad.


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

You tell Em, LRM. Kick butt!


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Great comment Leroy. I try to share as much knowledge as I can at the woodworking club shop and the local woodworking store. The store gives me a $50 gift certificate for a presentation which isn't much when you count prep time and materials. But I would do it without compensation just because of the people you reach and the compliments you get for sharing.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thank You, But I m not interested in buying your book.
> Someone may, but this site is about sharing the knowledge, not selling it.
> 
> Contact the administration and buy an ad.
> ...


I say we give him a chance, LeeRoy. Let him post his tax returns for the past ten years, and if that $12K per month is real (and from woodworking only) I'll definitely buy the book. Without that I'm not going to assume anyone's claims of income from woodworking are accurate.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Ted's relatives sell books?


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

you know that song by James Brown ~ Papa's Got A Brand New Bag ??

this is TED's new gig ~ I got 12,000 plans for you !!

.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I have a simple way. After I price the cost of materials I decide how much do I want to make and how much does the wood shop need to make. I don't make kitchen cabinets but I do the occasional Fish tank stand.
I usually do ok because I have very little over head.

Good Luck


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Madmark is right - consider the difference between charging by the hour vs the job.

When I started, I charged by the hour, and was lucky to get ten or fifteen. As a friend pointed out, the real money comes when you bid.

People will not pay $35.00 an hour, but will pay $75.00, IF you charge by the job.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

Most seem to forget (overhead), the cost of tools and supplies. Sand paper, hardware, adhesive or epoxy costs, and tool replacement. Most just eat those costs. I have a set price plus extras on each project I normally do. On restorations I quote on paper a minimum and a maximum quote to customer. Sometimes you end up with more work than anticipated, once you have apart (hidden problems until you have it apart). I also don't give a time of completion, when it's done it's done. Need it quick, I refuse the work. I don't want daily phone calls (is it done yet).

If you start charging too little, you'll find out, cheap is what your reputation is. This also reflects your quality of work. If you donate your work all the time, this will be what's expected from you with customers. Don't be afraid to give up work if they don't want to pay your price. There is a market for quality and people are willing to pay for quality. Join a local woodworking club. Woodworker like sharing knowledge if not BS.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm old and retired now, but way back in the late 1960's and 1970's I used my building abilities to do part time work on the side of my regular job to make money to build my shop. I began by building props and sets for a company that produced television ads for ad agencies. After a while I received a telephone call from a very large architectural firm and developer wanting to know if I would take a look at a 60 ft. mobile they had designed. Nobody could build it light enough for it to move in the ambient air. Fortunately my old model airplane skills and knowledge came into play and I was able to do the project successfully. I found they had called the filming studio to find out who they were using and got my name. For a long time I did occasional projects for both companies until a divorce lost me my home and shop (but NOT my machines and tools!). I got another home eventually and reestablished my shop, but I never took on any more projects as I had a top grade shop with light industrial woodworking machines and a metal lathe and mill, oxy-acetelyne, MIG and TIG welding, etc.

I say all of this as the key is finding a situation that will pay top dollar for excellent work. It isn't easy, but it is out there. The mom and pop type of clients will never pay enough to make it worthwhile. I was just lucky to have the ability and skills and fell into it. I never made it my prime business, always a sideline to my regular job. And yes, I had many sleepless nights but I always recuperated when it was finished.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 this topic has been beat to death in many other threads!

+1 Overhead costs are THE major issue.
Attempting to run ANY mfg business as sole proprietor makes it nearly impossible to compete with larger commercial operations with many employees.

+1 The ONLY way to make a decent living as INDIVIDUAL doing wood working is to find a niche. 
Must make products where you can charge much more than competition to cover non-value added time losses, or be able to create tooling that allows more efficient production rates of very specific items with high demand. Another reason discussing proper individual labor rates is useless!

There is tremendous amount of competition in wood working industry. Too many beginners attempt to start working wood for profit, without realizing the cost of overhead/non-value added labor. If you don't understand the above business issues, get off the forums and read some books on running a business and definition of overhead or non-value added labor. Can also enroll in community college to learn how to run a business. it is not skill many are given at birth. lol

I have met many commercial wood workers in my travels. The only companies making money in USA are the ones who own the company with an army of folks making the exact same thing all the time using dedicated tooling to increase productivity. If/when business crashes, and they can't pay off the loans that helped them build a big operation, they go bankrupt. Happens at least once a year here in AZ, based on the equipment auctions? The folks working for these companies make less than $25/hr and will never get rich on working wood.
The only international wood working companies I've seen making money are ones where labor costs are less than $3/hr. This is huge problem, as it allows Walmart to show people that wood working is cheap labor and not a skill worth decent money. This is another reason, the sole proprietor needs to find a niche.

YMMV


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

I charge by the project, not by the hour, and I've been in woodworking most of my life.

In my area the clientele will mostly refuse any paid hourly work. unless they hire someone to do some hourly work for them.

You charge by the project, sometimes you make a decent profit, sometimes you don't. To many variables in woodworking that either make or break your profits in woodworking.

Again as some have already stated, your skill level goes a long way in how a person charges. I live in a high dollar area and people expect to pay high dollar for experience and quality work. We've been in business since 1946, experienced, skilled, known for quality work, people pay us high dollar for our work, and expect high dollar work from us.

And in cabinetry and furniture, remember,people are price shopping…Ikea is their go to place for cabinetry and furniture. They get tired of it, toss it, and go by something else at a price we can't compete with, and don't try.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

What ever the traffic will bear in your area. Area can make a huge difference. You're not going to get New York City prices in rural West Virginia. No easy or set answers. You have to figure out what people will pay and adjust accordingly or don't do the work. Over the years I missed out on lot of work because people think I should beat Home Depot prices. I can't.

Most people around here what a price and won't pay hourly.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/the-states-where-workers-get-paid-the-lowest-wages.html/


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

An up front rule in establishing the price of your work is, NEVER compete with mass production. The RARE exception would be when the customer is willing to pay well beyond what the mass produced item cost.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

At under ten an hour, you are a non-profit.

Said another way, just insert what others said about masks, sandpaper, electric, glue, poly and paint, stain, equipment purchase, maintenance, repairs and upgrades. . . .


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm almost embarrassed to admit that the few projects that I've taken on, they've varied from 60 to 180 bucks an hour. They are few and far between, though, which is OK by me- I'm retired and someone else can find those sales if they want to make a big profit. I've mentioned a couple of examples in the past, but got gaff from some people. It's like the American-made clothespin industry. It's out there, and not many people are taking advantage of the opportunity. I'll say it here and now- the US craftsman can go and make products that beat the Chinese, but they'ed better get off their butts and do it. And not with Chinese-made materials. Heed my words- there is going to be a resurgence in the purchase of US-made products. The coronavirus is going to have deep repercussions.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I m almost embarrassed to admit that the few projects that I ve taken on, they ve varied from 60 to 180 bucks an hour.


I don't charge by the hour either. I do mostly cabinetry and have a cafeteria plan where carcasses are X dollars per foot, drawers are $Y each, panel doors are $Z a square foot, etc, etc. Then I add in supplies like lacquer at a multiple of cost.

So I wind up making a large hourly amount considering how quickly I can produce these items. Like you though, I don't work 40 hours per week.


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

Back when I was a painting contractor I did the same, used a formula for the various tasks, plus materials, plus time spent driving, even time spent making the estimate, added all together, and that was your cost. X amount per square meter for rolling, X amount for mudding and taping, etc,. And I always added a plus 20% clause in case of unforeseen circumstances, which are par for the course in that business.

Now, I dont use any formula and I dont keep track of anything. I just look at it when it´s done and say, this is going to be this much, period. Fortunately, my clients are wealthy, and if they want something they buy it, regardless of cost.

If i get a comission on an install, I use the formula method. But this "formula" is something that developes with experience, or is passed on by someone who is experienced.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

While we are on this subject I thought I would throw in a "formula" I arrived at for estimating the time to do a project. I would estimate the time and then double it. It was amazing how accurate this was when the project was finished!!!


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Comes down to how fast ones hour of labor is…..


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> While we are on this subject I thought I would throw in a "formula" I arrived at for estimating the time to do a project. I would estimate the time and then double it. It was amazing how accurate this was when the project was finished!!!
> 
> - Planeman40


Compared to what?


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

..............


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Ultimately, the customer decides what your labor is worth. If you don't charge enough, then you are cheating yourself. If you charge too much, you will never sell anything. I sometimes sell stuff for material costs because making things is my recreation and all I want in return is to recover expenses. On the other hand, I sell carved trivets and coasters at a very high hourly rate because I spent the time and money to buy a CNC router and put a lot of original design time into the products. My point is there is no good answer to your question. It depends on your circumstances.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

When I opened my shop around 2005 I had previously worked for the shops around the area…It was easy to sit down and figure a foot price and then a break down on costs,etc. I ran it till about 2017 when I shut it down.

I'm getting ready to open the doors again if I can start feeling better…


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

when I was making handcrafted dimensional wood signs, I made one for 
a new lawyer in town. about 2'x3', one sided, carved with some gold leaf.
I delivered it a couple of weeks later, got my check for $650.00.
on my way out the door, he asks how long it took to make such a beautiful
sign. I said, ohhhhh, about 3 hours. he went ballistic !! very loudly saying
that was over $200.00 an hour !!!
then, still ranting, "I am a Bar Certified, college educated Attorney" and I only
make $75.00 an hour !! . . . . and I calmly replied . . . 
yeah, that's all I made when I was a lawyer, too.

so, when you finally realize what your skill and talents are worth, and you get good at it,
you should charge accordingly and be consistent in your prices. don't jump all over the
board with prices. only you can determine what you are worth - not us.
all the best, Patrick - hope you find your niche soon and start making some real money.

.

(oh, the lawyer thing is just a joke ~ but very relevant).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As to how many of us made a living making sawdust, quite a few, I believe, and the things they built were as varied as there are tools in a 50 year old Tool Time Tim shop.

To me, woodworking ranged from the crude to the fine. That means I'd refinish a fence one day, frame a room the next, then build a bookshelf, set of cabinets, picture frame, art pedestal or other item the next.


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## RobbyJoe (Mar 30, 2020)

It feels to me like you should charge a flat rate for a piece, on top of whatever materials will cost. If I were a client, I'd want to know how much a piece would cost before I commit to having it built. There are so many variables in hourly charges. How efficient is the woodworker? How experienced? A craftsman who has made dozens of tables and has the techniques down pat will probably work much faster than someone who doesn't build furniture full time. What might take me 3 hours to accomplish, you might be able to do in 90 minutes. Would your table be worth less because you spent less time on it? If your goal is to maximize your income, take the work OT every time. The paycheck is guaranteed, and you further your usefulness at your main source of income. Especially with where our economy appears to be headed for the next few years.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

My personal thoughts have always been that if I can't make at least minimum wage then there is not reason to "do it for the money". I did heard a guy say one time that it's better to give your work away then undervalue yourself by selling it cheaper than you should. 
All that being said the guy in the video below has the same luck I do


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> My personal thoughts have always been that if I can't make at least minimum wage then there is not reason to "do it for the money". I did heard a guy say one time that it's better to give your work away then undervalue yourself by selling it cheaper than you should.
> All that being said the guy in the video below has the same luck I do
> 
> 
> ...


It amazing how many people are like that. (The buyer)


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I'll respond again, with an example of what I went through with a wainscot job. I was asked to provide a design and time required for said wainscot at the client's house. I spent an entire day drawing on the walls with chalk with the client, trying to come up with an acceptable concept. I got lunch in the deal, and that was it. I never bothered to follow up, because I could see where it was headed. I got called later for making a keyboard support for her kid to roll in and out of his desk. She wanted to come and look at what I did on my computer desk. I'm not going to go through all those hoops for an $8 paycheck, so I didn't pursue that request. You have to look carefully at what you will provide Vs what the client expects. They can be miles (and thousands of dollars) apart.


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