# i just shake my head and say "hmmmmmm"



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

With a look of loss and disappointment.

I have a current potential customer, i thought 90% sure i made the kitchen sale. It was one of those feelings that "we just clicked" and i am primed to close the deal. Ready to rock on a new and exciting kitchen job.

Then Sunday night they call, i am anticipating great news. They send me to one of those "cabinet direct" sites where they will ship you a 10 X 10 kitchen for like 1700.00 and free shipping. By the way, these really are nice people and this post is not meant to be any negative reflection on them. So they proceeded to drop the question, would i be willing to install those cabinets for them if they decided to buy them and also they asked my true opinion on these cabinets. Being a openly honest guy, and in this case, not much of a salesman, i responded that i have never used those cabinets and could not provide advice one way or another, which is true. I could only tell them what i could read on the site, which obviously was only positive things. I did point out that the prices listed are suspicious because those prices are typically what we have to pay for materials alone.

At this time they are still not decided that i know of.

Then today, i visit another family to provide a bid, and the husband is telling me how impressed ge was with the ikea design and cabinets they offered and especially for the asking price of their cabinets. He stated he did not care what the cabinets were made of as long as they looked nice and were "priced" right.

This past couple of days just left me wondering.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Then of course i get a call from a guy today wanting a 6' vanity and a 2' linen closet. I tell him 1200 - 1600 and he is ready to get started. He says he is ready to get rid of some cheap vanity that is falling apart in his bathroom that he regrets ever buying a few years ago.


----------



## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

I just got a new job from a long time customer (and friend) who bought a condo a couple of years ago. She had me build several pieces for her (dining room table, room divider, entertainment center, home office), but cheaped out on her bedroom. She bought a three piece dresser set and started complaining about it within a week. I just smiled and said "Told ya".

I'm doing some other small jobs for her and she told me that she wants me to build her some new bedroom furniture.

Sometimes, you just gotta wait them out. - lol


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Yep I installed some knock together boxes from China. I won't even call them cabinets. Then they put granite tops on them. Not once, or even twice, but three times for two different outfits. Too many houses are built as investments and not enough built as homes.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah i will wait them out, i do think i will make the sale. The one reason is they want to do this right and they express that they do not want to have regrets.

I am planning a meeting with them armed with some selling points in our favor. The boxes listed are 1/2" and butt jointed and so i anticipate they will have squaring issues that might affect reveals between doors and drawer faces giving a "cheap quality" appearance. I will also adv them my opinion that the cheaper line may deteriate and leave them with multiple kitchen repairs and back in the kitchen renovation market again sooner then they hope.


----------



## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Sadly, sometimes the good guy doesn't win. Brought in to provide a painting bid, I recently opened a client's mind with my suggestions on how to improve her master and guest bathrooms . She loved my ideas but wanted to bounce them off her interior decorator before making her final decisions. Enter the decorator, with her own carpenter in tow. Next thing you know, the carpenter gets the rebuild using my ideas. I get to follow his work with paint. Oh boy. And to add insult to injury, on my way out the door, the client's husband says "You come highly recommended to us. And we really love the work you show on your website". Go figure.

As to your original post, what most potential clients don't realize is that the reason those cabinets are so inexpensive is that they are nothing more than particle board with the thinnest veneer skin imaginable attached to their faces. The first time they get scratched, or wet, they get a rude awakening.


----------



## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's some armament: "A cabinet is only as good as its moving parts-hinges and drawer slides. We're seeing a lot of imported hardware these days, and it just doesn't hold up, and that's why I don't use it."

If they try to pin you down on installing the low grade stuff, consider something like this:

"A bad installation job can make a good cabinet worse. A great installation job will not improve a substandard cabinet. I would really like to be of help to you, but I want my name to be attached to the products I make and install, not on my efforts to install others' work."

And then there's always the John Ruskin quotes:

"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."

And:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better." 
- John Ruskin

Just a couple of suggestions. Comments welcomed!

Kindly,

Lee


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Cheep melamine is not thermally fused, for one - which you folks
probably know but the client may not. It also has more crumble-ability
to the particleboard underneath than some of the better melamine,
which is really pretty robust if you use it right.

If you're sweating over these jobs, you're not doing enough marketing. 
A relatively fixed percentage of people will pay for quality and value -
I learned to plan on not closing the majority of deals a long time
ago, just the good ones. Put enough leads in your sales funnel and
you'll close enough good deals to keep you busy.

I don't mean to downplay the disapointment of losing a kitchen job - 
but if they're thinking they like melamine it's almost always because
they are pinching pennies and you're on thin ice anyway and they'll
be looking at big-box options, slicing and dicing bids, weighing trust
factors and scratching their heads at how a mail-order outfit can undercut
a local shop by such a big margin.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Great comments Lee. I love the quotes.

And Loren, your comments are welcome and wise. I agree. We really just opened shop full time 13 months ago and so i truley have a long learning curve ahead, especially with regard to marketing. So far we have struggled by with CL.

But through word of mouth we got on with a owner builder working with help u build. They loved our work and wrote a testimonial and encouraged help u build to add us to their contractors list which they just did last week free of charge.

And, we are getting ready to sign with BBB. But that will cost us 525.00 so i hope we get something for that investment. I think one upside to BBB is here in San Antonio we will only be the 5th shop listed for S.A. area. I think that gives us better then good odds.

So Loren, do you have any advice about joining BBB.


----------



## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I haven't checked them out, but I just heard an ad today for Cabinets Direct. They claimed solid wood construction, dovetail joinery at drawer fronts and backs, Automatic closing, under mounted glides. For this they said top and bottoms cabinets for about $995 per 10 ft.

Is this possible? What's the catch?


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I am really not sure, it is the same as i read with my customer. The one thing i am confident is the quality will be lacking.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I would say don't.

The BBB is a for-profit scheme and I believe the recruiters are basically
commissioned salespeople selling memberships. I don't know the
whole scoop on the BBB, but I'd say your five hundred bucks
is better invested in other ways. That said, the effectiveness of BBB 
and Chamber of Commerce marketing will vary from place to place.

A few ways to get talking to the right people, if you have a few bucks
to spend on marketing - are using direct mail to contact designers and
architects, and flyering affluent neighborhoods door to door.

Craigslist is free so keep using it, but it does not target the mass-affluent 
market you should be going after.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You can't beat the bad guys for overlay doors and drawer fronts - 
but they can't beat a small shop for doing nice inset face frame
work.

That said, cabinets are more a commodity today than they have
ever been, so you need to find ways to expand what you offer
if you don't want to be constantly busted-up by clients price-shopping
your stuff against big retailers. What those mail order shops can't
deliver is artful installation - and I'd recommend you don't install 
work from other shops, but if you do, mark it up to do it right since
the customer slashed your profit by sourcing the cabinets elsewhere.

You've got to take a stand in your market on price. It isn't always 
easy, but nobody really wants to get the cheapest guy to do the
work…except the people who can only afford the cheapest work.


----------



## rusty2010 (May 26, 2011)

My advice is to listen to Loren. The BBB is a waste of money. Nobody uses them as a referral. I own a design/build company. We installed and purchased about 80 to 100 kitchens. Two of my customers insisted on an private cabinet maker. The results where negative and I'm being kind to them. We buy either Kraftmaid or Medallion cabinets. I been to several shops and seen many cabinets built by individuals and none compares to these except one shop here locally. Your in a competative and demanding business. I'm not saying give up or your work is bad. What I am saying is to set yourself apart from others by design, service and great detail to the customers needs. Emphasize your unique designs and custom craftmanship, offer them something no one else has. It's worked for me. Good luck


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Some great advice has been given. I especially like Lee's suggestion about refusing to do the install of the cheap cabinets because you don't want your name associated with that kind of product. It might cost you the install, but it might also be convincing enough to have them rethink their position.

I have to disagree with Loren and Rusty about the BBB. Maybe it varies by region, but here in South Louisiana, most people I know, myself included, wont hire a company without a satisfactory or better BBB rating.


----------



## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I think that Rusty has a good plan. Spend your time and billable hours on what sets you apart. Such as custom work, service, planning and installation. More people will be impressed with the design and layout of the kitchen.

When most people visit someone's home, they do not look inside the cabinets to see what kind of construction or what kind of closers are used. Many companies can build cabinets that all look similar but you can be different by working with the customer to find out their needs, plans and special needs. Take all of this information, add your product knowledge, stir in some vision for their future needs and come up with a plan that will impress them and their friends. Again, I don't think their friends will look inside the cabinets to see the construction. They will be impressed with the floor plan, the bells and whistles and the convenience factors that you designed in. That is what can lead to referrals.

I am not suggesting that you stop making custom cabinets. I am suggesting that you also include pre-made cabinets in your product offerings to add in a wider price range to capture sales from the people who don't quite as much money as other customers.

By expanding your price offerings and services, you have a larger pool of potential customers.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I think the bbb thing might be depending on how your area works. In San Antonio, there are probably more then 100 shops but only 4 listed with bbb. I got some confidence up and called one of the shops listed and the guy told me bbb is really good to him because customers find him through their bbb site and said he will always renew. So we will see.

Along with that i plan to send out a bi fold flyer to builders, home designers and architects. I am sure those folks will not mind seeing that we are.refistered with the bbb. The bbb does provide accountibility to the contractor so i would think that would be a benefit to the customer.


----------



## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

One thing that really bugs me about the 'offshore' aspect to manufacturing is how a lot of our entrepreneurs are falling for it. Shows like 'Sharks' Tank' (in the U.S.) and 'Dragon's Den' (in Canada) keep bringing on small business people with great ideas. Then, a lot of the time, when it comes to crunching numbers, the hosts (rich people) ask the business person what they want the investment money for.
Then, small business person says "Oh, I want to find a company in China to produce my invention, so I can get rich selling it to my fellow countrymen"... So, where does said business person expect us poor slobs who can't find a job to find the money to buy this offshore crap??
It really pisses me off (can I say that on here?)...


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Wood smith, i could not have said it better myself. I hate it myself.


----------



## jonnytranscend (Jun 13, 2011)

Over the years I have had that happen many times. I basically do not warranty anything i don't build but will sometimes install them. When people see my work in person they generally go with my cabs though.


----------



## woody57 (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe you should build a small sample cabinet. Then buy one of those cheap ones from the big box store and compare the two. Most people will understand the difference when they are side by side like that. Just a thought.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

That's not a bad suggestion Emmett.

However, construction on factory made cabinets is not bad. The
parts are accurately cut, drawer construction adequate and so 
forth.

The stock cabinets are seldom available in fine dimensional increments, 
and are often too short for tall people, who you can sell jobs to by 
saying "I notice you're a bit taller than average - have you ever felt 
like you were stooping in most kitchens?"

Tall folks prefer about 38" counter height in my experience. Most
standard cabs are about 34.5" with toe kick, with 1.5" allowed for
counter thickness.

One other major thing you can do is offer the frames and panel made
from different, contrasting species. This will drive certain clients mad
with desire and leave others unimpressed.


----------



## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

..or you could take both cabinets and drop them from about 4 feet off the floor. I'm guessing the 'factory' one will shatter like glass…


----------



## rusty2010 (May 26, 2011)

Jerry,
MarkRhodes is a fellow LJ. Take a look at what he does. It may help to inspire you to different avenues


----------



## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Maybe my experience as a consumer provides some ideas.

I bought my house new from the builder 20 years ago. Raised 3 girls.
Kitchen and bathroom cabinets were all site-made from plywood and finished with "spar varnish".
Shelves are solid pine boards. Although the materials were durable, construction and hardware are low-grade; kinda ugly but mechanically sound.

The cabinet under the sink has on a couple of occasions had standing water on the bottom for at least a couple of days at a time. For a while I had a roof leak running into an upper cabinet. Things happen. Not a problem for plywood & pine; would other materials survive?

The finish on the lower cabinets near the sink is mostly gone. Wet hands drip water.

Most of the lower cabinets show skuffs and dings. This looks worse on some materials and styles than on others.

In a lot of cases I suspect the lifetime of the cabinet comes to an end because the homeowner wants a new style or the cabinets are just too beat up to look nice. Usually refinishing or refacing is nearly as expensive as replacing, so the only practical choices are paint (ugly) or replace (expensive). It would be really cool if the cabinets were designed such that it was cost-effective to replace the doors, drawer fronts, face frames, and visible side panels while the cabinet boxes and countertops remained in-place.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah i can sure understand the budger thing. Not being to afford something thqt may be a need does not.feel good. To buy a custom high quality set of kitchen cabinets, it is much like going to a new car lot, and many times without the backing of a financial loan. So like with vehicles, we need to begin a savings account in advance in order to save enough to afford what we need.

Of course this is so so so much easier to write about then to actually do.

I will say that in the past i have offered a financing deal we would do privately within our company with 50% down and monthly payments.


----------



## Wood_smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Greg,
That's why I like the concealed hinge doors that mount on the cabinets, not as traditional as face frames, but by just replacing the doors, you can change the look quite a bit. They only part left to deal with is the cabinet sides at the end of the row. A piece of veneer finished the same as the new doors, and you can really change the look for a lot less.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Just my take. I'm in business to make "money"….."profit" and personally I would never walk away from a paycheque. In fact, when I know folks are on a budget, I suggest buying the cheap crap……..why should zi loose out on an install contract because of what……"My ego?". I learned to dump the ego BS a long time ago.

If I'm too busy with custom stuff, then I find a guy and sub contract it out to him, and make a few bucks on his back………..

First rule of business. You HAVE too make more money then you spend.

I once installed some cheap crap into what I would call a mansion. In the end, I got every stick of work on the interior of that home,…..timber framing, boat house kitchen and murphy beds, the furniture, the kitchen (old one ripped out)…….some serious renos………..all because I installed some junk.one of dozens of personal experiences in "What to do" when ego and pride raise their ugly head.

I think its a good idea to take pride and swallow it as gracefully as possible, I think its a good idea to take lost opportunities and turn them into good fortune………sometimes in business, the bigger picture is hard to see.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Correction. just last week I walked away from a large contract as I instantly knew that whoever built the house, was not a carpenter, who ever made the footing and piers was not experienced at all. The whole place looked like a "liability" nightmare, and for that reason alone…………I walked. Certain exceptions apply.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

if you do take the job installing……….dont sulk, dont slander the product and make the install as "Quality" as possible. You might even suggest ways to "beef up" the product, so they get there money out of it……….little things can go along, long way.


----------



## TMcG (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't know if this is ironic, humorous or both but I wasn't logged in when I first read your post and the ad directly underneath was "Cheap Kitchen Cabinets"

Sometimes you just gotta laugh !


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

That is internet marketing at its best…

As far as installing cheap cabinets, i did the saleman thing, tried to give my pitxh against going the cheap cabinets route, did it honorably and respectfully. Then followed up with call, left voicemail. Then a email, then one last call and left voicemail, this was last week sometime. I tried but you dont win them all.

And personally i agree with Loren, there is a fixed percentage of population that will pay for quality, i just need to ensure that i keep enough leads in my "funnel" to ensure that i keep the shop busy. That is the trick and the one learning curve that i find myself on right now and i am currently working on increasing the leads.

I have some ideas, and i am taking action. One thing that i think is that i cannot put all my eggs into one basket, while i do get a lot of leads from cl, i will be looking for other avenues of leads also.

So ideally a year or so from now i might be getting a steady supply of leads from about 6 or 7 different types of sources, which should fill my days just submitting bids daily.

This week has been very upbeat because i have about 6 bids for good sized jobs, and statistically speaking i have a good chance to land one or more of these bids from this week. So i will stay positive.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Like the title says…….."I just shake my head"


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

To expound more,

Right now we get leads from:

word of mouth. This starts to get more frequent as time goes on, sort of like a large train taking off. With other types of businesses, multiple customers served daily and word of mouth becomes more powerfyl, with us, one to two customers per month. Hmmmm, takes some time to build steady word of mouth.

CL gives us a ton. Of course mostly budget minded and most with tight budgets.

Walk in. We are in a extremely small town 30 miles south of San Antonio but right on the main highway. On the way to the coast for most folks.

My future game plan for more leads:

BBB. Mixed feelings here. So i felt it might be regional, good in some areas, bad in others. So there are only 5 cab shops listed as accredited in SA. I grew some nuts and called one of them, they told me they never miss a annual dues, states BBB has been great for him and his business. Statea people find him through the site, and contact him, and he says they are some of the easiest sales because of the BBB accredidation. So i bought the membership. We will just see how it goes this year.

We were just added to Help U Build list. We were told by the HUB rep that it is free because charging would be a conflict of interest. So you get on the list by recommendation and stay on the list by doing good work. we were just added two weeks ago, so we will just wait and see how that works.

Then this past week we have been also advertising free on Kijiji. We will see how that works.

This week i also put together a really nice, full color, tri fold 8.5×11 flyer. I used both sides to put together a information packed sales pitch flyer. This next week, i will dress in my Sunday best duds, map out some of the higher ends of town where i plan to stop in and speak with home designers and residential architects. Hopefully i will make some good impressions. I will alao try to meet with some builders also. That venture will probably take me the better part of two weeks to make the rounds and make a ton of contacts.

Then obviously as we do good work, other trades see that, especially high end general contractors for high end custom homes, and maybe we will get fortunate enough to get added to one or two of their list through recommendation/referral.

And then finally i have considered looking into a service such as Service Magic, but more as a supplimental lead service to add a few extra leads herw and there.

Well that is the plan, now for the execution.

Thanks everyone for all of the great comments.


----------



## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

You guys are into cabinets and furniture, I turned a couple years ago into guitars. Not everybody likes my designs, but I have to agree completely with Loren, marketing, marketing, marketing. The other biggee is the word of mouth you don't hear had better be full of value. In other words, when a customer does talk about your work, make sure it's in the positive. Statistics show that although only about 30 to 50% of your satisfied customers will actually go out of their way to promote your good work, about 70% of your dissatisfied customers will make a point of saying something.
We all compete against the Asians. I lived in Shanghai for 16 months and have maybe a softer view of them. They are just trying to live like us. But we are innovators, they are copycats. The Japanese are improvers, but we invent. Put something new and exciting into your work, market it, and go to town. Don't necessarily reinvent the wheel, but give it something that most others don't.


----------



## CarlFisher (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't have anything to directly add to comparing your cabinets to the prefab, but I will offer this as reference.

The Project Triangle. aka. Pick 2.

This is a direct pull from Wikipedia and does a good job of explaining the triangle. This can be applied to so many things in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_triangle

"You are given the options of Fast, Good and Cheap, and told to pick any two. Here Fast refers to the time required to deliver the product, Good is the quality of the final product, and Cheap refers to the total cost of designing and building the product. This triangle reflects the fact that the three properties of a project are interrelated, and it is not possible to optimize all three - one will always suffer. In other words you have three options:

Design something quickly and to a high standard, but then it will not be cheap.
Design something quickly and cheaply, but it will not be of high quality.
Design something with high quality and cheaply, but it will take a long time."


----------



## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

When I had my own business, I did walk away from some work because it would be too much of a problem. When I decided that I needed the revenue more - well, lets say that I no longer have the company. You make decisions, sometimes they work for you, sometimes not.


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Don't ever run down the competition to try to make yourself look better. That dog won't hunt. Tell them the positive on your work. I have a general contractor friend that told me it took him a long time to come to this thinking but sometimes it was better if he didn't get the job. That could be where you are. Like Moron said about walking from his job the other day. Some jobs are not for you. Kepp the quality up and treat people right. Never run the competition down. When people tell me about some junk I begin to tune them out.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

Carl, i read your post and when i sen the "cheap with quality, but it will take longer" i really had a hard time envisioning cheap and quality going together. But actually if i sold a customer a 20,000.00 kitchen, layed my workers all off, because they will not work for free, and built the entire kitchen myself, which is how i used to do it when i first started, and then agreed to wave my own labor or a reduced labor, the customer would recieve high quality for cheap and would have to wait longer while a hungry craftsman built the kitchen for them because without labor pay i would be very hungry while working. Just an idea.

And i agree that i should not talk down to competition but home depot, ikea and some outfit in another country paying slave labor in poor conditions in order to provide a priduct for nickles in the name of making a sale at the expense of workers sacrifice is not my competition. Other custom cabinet shops that manufacture here in the US are our competition.


----------



## CarlFisher (Aug 16, 2011)

That's a perfect way of looking at it.

You as a business owner have the ability to decide which of those 3 you are willing to fulfill based on your needs and the customers needs. If the above scenario is what it takes, then I would likely pass on the job and find other means, unless you have spare time and have enough paying jobs to cover your labor costs, and time is not a factor, then maybe its an option. At the end of the day, your name is associated with the end product and you should only accept work for which you are willing to have that association.

If after a polite explanation of this to the customer they still want quality and cheap or fast and cheap, perhaps it's time to let the customer move on.


----------

