# need work bench help



## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, i have a work table built of angle iron and plywood. I can't build another one because one end houses my wood lathe. i can't have a good vice because of the angle iron frame. Is there a way to add a short extension to the table that would support a vice. I would like to have a wood vice on one corner and a machinist vice on the other, not big one but not little. thanks mike.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You have a vice: Woodworking. If you need to add a vise, just buy more of the same steel the bench is framed with and add an extension. The holes will line up so add what you have room for. Either two more legs, or angled braces to the existing legs.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

here is my vice a piece of junk, also i have knoiw idea where to get metal like that. besides the metal frame is why I can't mount a vice on that table


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Mike - if you don't use the machinist's vice often, you can 
make a base for it and store it out of the way when it is not used.
(the vice I use the most is on a small table outside in the carport).



















.

my Box Stores carry the slotted angle iron in the hardware section in the metal bin.










.


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## Mr_Pink (May 20, 2017)

Depending on what you intend to use a vice for, you could make a removable vice that sits on top of the bench, like a Moxon vice.


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## Axis39 (Jul 3, 2019)

Why can't you just bolt or screw wood to the outside of the metal legs? Just put washers on that are larger than the holes in the metal.

You could build whatever you wanted on the end….


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Take the top off and build another longer top.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The first thing I would do is make the top of your bench larger and thicker. If you have at least 2 inch overhang, it opens up all kinds of options because you can clamp things to the top, including a moxon vise or even a a machinist's vise. mounted on a board. Check out this topic for some ideas for building a vise you can mount on top of your bench. Of course this all assumes that your bench is heavy and stable enough for the sort of work that you use a vise for. If the bench moves or sways, it might be better to start by building a new bench that will also be a better base for vises.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

As Ibewjon 1st suggestion:
what about making something like this (not necessarily with a leg vise).
It is bolted to an existing table.

And for the machinist vice as John Smith suggest


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the suggestions, gives me a lot of ideas. I like Sylvains it what I am looking for but small 2' x 3'. I would love a top like that but I don't have the need clamps or a planer to smooth the top


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Laminating and flattening a bench-top might seems intimidating but just do it. I had practically no experience with a bench plane when I made my workbench. After a lot of procrastination, I have done it. It is not that difficult.
If you have no experience with hand tools, look at the videos of Paul Sellers.
In particular the workbench ones.
The bench-top making

If you have no clamps, you can glue two boards using screws as clamps. When the glue is dry, remove the screws, glue another board and screw it and so on. Repeat the process until you have the desired width. 
Don't spend too much time trying to get a perfect flat top. It will probably move a little bit the first year (depending of the dryness of the wood used.) Perfect your planing skills on other boards during that year.

Screws as clamp in this video
 starting at about 13'.

To avoid chopping mortises for the legs, use the technique shown here. 
last picture
and here first picture.
also explained here although the wedges are not mandatory.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Work bench tops and butcher block cabinet tops are available at the big boxes and woodcraft and tickler. In oak and maple. Get the proper size and attach it to the top of your bench with the needed overhang all around. Just another option.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have built many benches and never worried about getting it perfectly flat. To me, a bench will be pounded on, screws and nails driven into. If you want a flat surface for assembly jobs, that is a different story. A bench is not a piece of furniture; it takes a beating. There are benches that cost high 3 figure prices. Why anyone would want to have such a bench is beyond me. It's like a new car and the first scratch it gets. A bench will get it's share of scratches and worse if it is being used. Typically, I will build a bench and it will last for 10 or more years. When it's all torn up, I will either replace the top or build a new one.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

i watched the screws for clamps video thats the way I'll go.Is skid wood good for bench tops. This one will be a 2×3 foot add on to the bench pictured could i use skid rails for the top, or would 2×4s be better thanks


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't know what "perfectly" flat would be for a workbench. 
Seeing what Bandit571 was able to build with his "one afternoon workbench" helped me stopping procrastination about making a workbench. This bandit571 workbench has been flattened initially. I don't think it has been re-flattened ever since.

And many Paul Sellers blogs show a well beaten top. Nice blog about this subject.

That being said, verifying if something rocks on the workbench top gives a quick indication if the piece is (probably) twisted or not. "probably" because the indication will never be better than the bench-top quality. For better measure I use winding sticks.
I don't know how really flat my bench-top is. I just used winding sticks and an inexpensive (cheap?) 1 m long aluminium rule to feel if it it was dragging equally everywhere without "helicoptering".

To answer Karda's question.
Skid wood would be perfectly OK; I made my workbench with recycled wood. 
You will have to eliminate the high spots and to smooth the faces which will receive the glue before gluing.
(see "The bench-top making" link here-above). Skid wood being thin than 2X4, it means a little more work to achieve the same bench-top depth. (but you can use shorter screws as clamp).

Note that a one foot depth workbench-top is enough for most of the work and your existing table will provide additional support if needed. Having a wider bench-top is of course a matter of personal preference.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

what I am looking for is about 16" x 36" with a vice on one end. i have found some utubes that make a similar bench, however they are bench top benches. How would i put legs under a bench like this, I could bolt 2 legs to my iron bench frame for stability. here are 2 link to videos making what i think I want. This is a Lumberjocks project and about the size I need but how to attach it to the metal legs, I am a crapy designer

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/106379


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

for the laminated legs in a laminated top, see the links here-above

under "To avoid chopping mortises for the legs, ..."

design (great word) :


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the diagram that helps, I was thinking legs bolted to iron I like your idea better. I dug out a table i made that would make a good base. should I bolt this to iron. Top is 18"x34" what do you think thanks


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I am not sure this would work better than your actual set-up…

Until you need something better, countersink the bolts which maintain the beam to the table (place the nuts underside) and plane the top of the beam to have a more or less smooth surface.

You might think this is a joke but then look at what this guy is able to make on board of a ship with just a piece of 4X4 in a machinist vice as a workbench.

You, at least, have a woodworking vise. 
If necessary add packing to get the top of the woodworking-vise's wooden-jaw flush with the top of the planed beam.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, i oopsed, when I measured the distance from the front of the table and found it to short for the vice screw I was wrong. I do have room to mount the vice to my table. But how, the table is 2 pieces of .75 plywood. I can shim down the vice flush with the top, but the top of the vice has a curved edge not flat. i don't want to build out the front to much because it is a tight passage as it is


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Smooth your beam, glue it under the plywood-top and reinforce it with countersunk screws.










for more instructions, look here:
https://paulsellers.com/2016/06/bench-vise-part-ii/ (skip the apron cutting part)
https://paulsellers.com/2016/06/vises-part-iii/

Make sure all the screws don't interfere one with the other.
Vise metal jaw 4mm below the top is a minimum which, on a wooden top, allow subsequent flattening, it is not a maximum. (mine is about 8 mm below).
Flattening is not applicable to your plywood top but the metal jaw must be below to ensure you will not hit it with your plane. (idem for the countersunk screws).


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the instructions, i tried to mount the vice ans it won't square, the castings are not square also to mount it the face screws would be right between the 2 pieces of plywood. I added a piece under the table to lower the jaws to flush with the table top and the screws went right in the seam. I went back to what i had. I am looking for a better vice, one I can mount right. This little thing isn't worth the effort thank for all your help it will come in handy next vice thanks Mike


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok I have to make a decision I have been considering a laminated extension as sylvain described. another way would be to top the bench top with 2xs and extend it over the end of the bench and put legs on the end. The new top would start at the partition, I won't need to touch the lathe end. I will also put a wood vice on one side and dog holes in the bench. Here are pics of the full bench and the end. What kind of problems should i anticipate. This is the biggest project I have ever done


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Now we have a better picture.
I would take a hack saw and shorten the metal bench at the partition. This would leave space for an independent workbench.
I see you have a band-saw, so you could make the plywood version of a Paul Sellers workbench if you hesitate to make a solid wood one. Of course you would have to adapt the workbench length to the space available.

The advantage is: if you have to work on a piece wider than the workbench depth, you can move the lathe and/or the workbench to avoid your piece being restricted by the lathe partition.

Believe me, one doesn't need much experience or skill to make a functional PS workbench (and it doesn't need to look pretty).


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

when I took the other pictures i wasn't even considering a work bench only a vice. The bench can to mind when I videos on utube on how to make small bench tops with a vice. I pulled out the small bench pictured to use for a base, the table top is solid so I will leave that alone. question is do I want to laminate 2×4s or lay 2×6s flat. Flat will give me more room for a vice but will it be as stable for using a hand plane. The distance from the top of the small bench to thew table top is 4.25", thew 2×4 top will be 3" thick, I can gain some if I remove the plywood from the small table. Thats my clearance for my vice. I wan't the two table to be fairly even.


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

I "think" if you mounted a vise chop against your table, the face portion and the moving parts would exist below your metal work. You would need to build up the underside of the table top to be the right thickness for the vise mount.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

A laminated 2 X 4 top is self-supporting (will not sag significantly).
If you want the top of the workbench at the same height as the metal-legged table, just glue and screw a 1.25" thick board (assuming a 3" thick work-top) as bearer (under the bench-top) at each end of the small bench/base.

Although I don't know how you will mount the vise because you base build is different than mine. You might have to suppress the front rail (or put it lower).

I would suppress the existing top and adapt the bearers thickness as necessary.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Just going to add my 2 cents and that is follow everything Sylvain has said. Flattening a laminated top isn't nearly as hard as it seems. I did mine last year out of Douglas fir with a #4 and #5 stanley off ebay. Within that year i learned the 2 planes I used weren't tuned properly. Now i know how to restore and tune planes. I put that knowledge to work re-flattening the top last week. I made a couple winding sticks out of some 3/4 birch ply and ensured they were parallel with a caliper. Spray painted one red and the other black for a nice contrast.

Because I didnt know about the mortise technique Sylvain linked to i put a couple plywood strips across my legs to mount the top. I used 1/4 in lag bolts with a fender washer. The trick was drilling a 1/2 hole in the plywood to allow the top to move with seasonal changes. After a year i've had no joints fail and its never been in a climate controlled space.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

sansoo I want to use that small bench pictured for the legs, it already made and its stable. My biggest challenge that I can see is bolting to the existing table the bolts are in the way kind. also the existing top don't come even with the iron so i am need to fill that gap and create an even surface to bolt to. here is the picture of the gap


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Just a wild thought but what about a tool well between the 2 benchs? I have one attached to the side of my laminate top bench. It could be used to hold the 2 benches together. Its a heck of a lot easier to bolt thru it to the metal table and it can be sized in whatever configuration you need. If the bolts of the metal table are in the way just cut some dados or use a forstner bit to create some recesses.

Here is a pick of my top with its tool well if it helps give you any ideas.








I have a removable caddy to hold bench dogs and other things in mine if it looks funny. That comes out and both wells are completely open or i have more support for larger sheet goods.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thats an idea, I'll have to look into it thanks


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

If your base is stable, why would you want to bolt it to the table?


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I want to use the bench for planing and I will use the vice for wood carving. Although the bench is stable it is not that heavy


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi,, I am getting more settled on the bench I want, I will be laminating 2×4s to make the top, 18" x about 30". I will eventually put vice on the end. I want to mortise on an end cap for the vice . In order to get clearance for the vice I may have to take the legs off the bench and shorten them. Where to put the vice, do I center it and have chops the full width of the top or do I put it on the corner and have smaller chops. I'll use my circular saw for making the tenon on the end for the end cap how do i get this square and plumb so the vice is level in all directions Thanks Mike


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

One generally put the vise 
- on the long side;
- between the legs;
- near the left leg (near the right leg if you are a lefty).

I don't see what you want to do with an end-cap.
Level? Look at how Paul Sellers is working, generally his work piece is askew in the vice.
Depending on what you intend to carve, level might be irrelevant and a carving vise might be more appropriate.

For carving you might want a workbench higher than a joinery bench.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, i have a 37" bench and that would be nice, however i am stuck with what I have. Also most wood carving I will do I will be sitting. I would plane from the sitting position if I could. Standing is not fun for me so i sit when i can. a side bench vice is not an option. I wanted to put a cap piece on to screw the vice into, I assume a vice would not hold that well in end grain, also it is a smooth level surface.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

In a vise, there are normally four holes to be used for four lag bolts screwed to the underside of the bench-top. It is strong enough; as the bottom of the lamination is no end grain.
The two holes in the rear jaw are normally used to fix the rear wooden face-plate

Now on the Paul Sellers workbench it is mounted differently. Because of the apron it is only possible to use 2 lag-bolts. To compensate for this, the two hole in the rear jaw are also used to secure the vise to the apron; while the face plate is screwed to the apron on each side of the rear jaw.

As you don't have an apron you can perfectly mount the vise normally at the end of the lamination. An end-cap will not make it stronger (on the contrary IMHO).


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks, I won't do an end cap, that save a lot of headaches. I'll screw just the bottom.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi, i finished may table. i want to have it slightly above the existing table for an out feed table for my table saw. I will use 2×4 feet question how do I fasten the feet to the table and to the frame it rests on. i might need the end cap anyway depends on the kind of vice I get


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Congratulations for your new bench-top.
Now you have a good surface to make the rest of the workbench.
Clamp it temporarily to the existing frame and make a good base.

You could first make two leg-frames inspired by what is described here

The bench-top is simply screwed from below to the horizontal boards on top of the leg-frames.

But for the end where you intend to put the vise, look at the end of the post under
"Alternative tenon detail options you might want."

Then you will have to decide if you want aprons like the Paul Sellers workbench or if you want to connect the two leg-frames by rails.

Of course you would have to adapt the dimension to your particular needs and to the material available.
e.g. you might not be able to make 4" wide tenons if your 2X4 are not really 4" wide
Paul Sellers has used two laminated 2X4 to make the feet but for your small workbench it is probably overkill.

If you look at the first picture here, you will see there is no end-cap where the vise is mounted.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

for some vices I can use the bench for a jaw but there are some that need an apron to mount to. I don't know what kind I am going to get. reasonably priced vices are not easy to come by and then there is high shipping. iam concentrating on the table now. I want what is pictured only the feet won't be as high. the easy way would be to lag them from the top but I don't want to do that if I don't have to


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

The aprons on Paul Sellers benches is not there for the vise but to counteract longitudinal raking.
The leg-frames are wedged in dadoes in the aprons.

Other options are:
- legs mortised in the bench-top and a low rail at the font and at the back (and only the low rails on the leg-frames);
- four rails (two on the front, two on the back;
- a rail made of a wide board (one on the front and one on the back) approximately at mid height tightened with bed bolts to the leg-frames (Nordic style workbench base);
- two large plywood panels;
- two rails on the front and a large plywood panel on the back (so you can still store things under);
- ?

Bolting the top from above is ok if one counterbore in such a way that the bolt heads are well below the surface and one doesn't risk hitting them with a tool or if one has to flatten it again. Your bench-top is thick enough for this. One can always put a wooden plug on top of the bolt heads.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks you have given some good options. Right now though before I do much else I am going to have to figure out a way to square the ends


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

squaring the ends: here


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

also first 2'.30" here 
starting square on the edge and then continuing along the line on the face.

Although on the workbench-top video, he intentionally started a little askew to keep the "knifewall" as a reference for planning.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

i was hoping to not have to use a hand saw but I did. I did better than I thought but still couldn't make it square. I have watched the videos and followed the instructions still can't cut square. I even screwed up the knife wall. The end is plane able though. The other end i can do with a plane. Here is a pic of the top before I squared the end. I have a couple places where the 2xs didn't come together, they glued well the top is open. What would you suggest I fill them with they aren't deep


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Does this opening shows on the other side?
If not and if it seems solid, just flip it.

Otherwise:
- cut along the glue line with a rip saw;
- take a very shallow pass with a plane, just enough to remove the saw marks;
- glue again.
Try to align perfectly the end, otherwise you will have to plane them again.

Cutting between two boards is a technique used to mate two boards nearly perfectly without jointing them. I is used in traditional boat building.
see 2nd and 3rd picture here.
see also 4th picture here.
Those boats are not glued but nailed. The wood will swell and make the joint watertight.
So they don't plane after sawing.

The bottom doesn't need to be perfectly flat but you must ensure the the zones where it will sit on the base are flat and twist-free (otherwise the workbench might rock because the twisting will be transmitted to the base).
Hone your skills on the bottom before flattening the top.

Squaring the ends should be the last operation after flattening and squaring the edges to the reference (top) surface. 
Use the best squared end to mount your vise, the other one is not critical.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks for the saw tip I'll try that, I forgot to check the bottom for twist, I plan that but just to flatten a couple boards The top is as flat as I need it. I did better than I thought I could considering the plane, I probably haven't set as well as it should be. I'm still not sure how i want to mount the top. I will have to be able to dis assemble it when I mount the vice. I don't want to build a new frame but I may have to. Thank Mike


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I guess I have to build a new frame. i clamped the top on the frame to flatten the bottom and the frame is shaken all over it will not make a stable bench. I have one problem i flattened most of the bottom bit the outer 2 pieces are about 3/16ths lower than the rest. Is there a way to work with those 2 low boards or do I have to flatten the rest of the top down to meet them. The board with the clamps and the one next to it are the ones.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

With 10 out of 12 "2X" level, there is enough surface to attach the top to a base.
Just don't screw the base to the top through those two board to avoid any twisting effect.

However, if needed with your base, where the top will come in contact with the base, you can glue a shim on those two boards and plane it flush with the other boards.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok thanks, I am going to rebuild the frame using half lap joints and screw the frame to the bottom thanks mike


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Go the extra mile of mortise and tenons.
IMHO They are stronger.

And not that difficult to do.





to understand how the chisel works, study this video


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Hi I watched the videos, he makes it look so easy but I am notorious for not being accurate neither am I confident that I can cut them accurately. i saw a video where a work bench was made with all half lap joints. I can do that. Using what i have i can add an other 2x on the out side of each leg. I will put side stringers on as well as end ones. the bench will also be bolted to the iron frame of the main bench. here is a pic of how it will look, except the legs will be longer. The only problem I can see is how to mount or make a vice.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

On the side where you intend to mount the vise, put your rail lower in such a way that there is space between the top and the rail for the vise mechanism. (Assuming a face vise).


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

the way I have pictured I will end up rebuilding the frame with my original Idea of using feet to get my height i think will work out. I will add size to thew legs by adding an other 2×4 to the legs, that will also create the mortise for the stringers. the feet will be 2.5" high. To prevent movement I will block the feet and possibly screw into the feet through the blocks. I drew a rough diagram that might help. That will be simpler and also give me the clearance for a vise thanks mike


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

The space needed for the vise mut take into account the length of the screw and guide rods.
If you rebuild your base, you can put the rail where you intend to put the vise low enough.

About the bench height, if you want to reuse the same legs,
what about simply adding blocks under the existing legs.

have a look at the feet of bandit571 workbench:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/89659

look at 3rd or 4th picture


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I figured that when I put a vise in I would need to drill the foot to accept it. I was thinking raising the hight like bandit did but discounted it because of the end grain connection, would that be stable enough. That would solve a lot of problems. I just thought, I can put another cross piece under the 2x that I have to cut a way for the vise, that will add support. Thanks Mike


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

"I figured that when I put a vise in I would need to drill the foot to accept it." 
For a leg vise, yes. for a face vise, no.

"end grain connection" 
If you have a rail at ground level as in your present base, you can screw the additional block in it and it is not an end grain connection.
Now Bandit571 seems perfectly happy with his bench which has seen a hell lot of use. 
I guess he used very long screws in the end grain. 
Furthermore, if you bolt this base to the existing metal table, it will see much less effort then the Bandit571 's one.

If possible, un-mount the "offending" rail and reuse it lower enough to mount the vise.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I re mounted the end stringers on the bottom of the legs for feet. To increase the height to the level needed I added another layer, that worked. I can't take out the end piece that will interfere with a vice, it is between the side rails. I am going to screw on and another 2x under the existing one for additional support. In a previous post you told me an end cap would be counter productive. I planed to use the table end for the inner chop of the vise. I have seen some on utube do this, how does this workout


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

I think I don't understand your question.
I can only refer to the last sentence to comment #39 here-above
The vise is simply mounted with lag bolts (from under) to the workbench-top.
Add some packing if necessary to get the vise jaws a few mm (1/8 to 1/4 ") below the workbench-top.

assuming a vise like this *one*:
check *fig. 2* here
the vise is mounted with 4 lag screws.

except that the vise doesn't need to be flush if you adopt Paul selles way of woodworking.
Just skip "bench-top is routed to accept rear jaw"


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok thanks


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hmmmmm…









Been well used..









Was getting a high spot…planed it flat….


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I finaly got the new bench done, its not pretty but it works. I didn't build a new frame but I did put feet under the legs to get my height. I also added a 2nd layer of 2×4s to the legs to create a mortise for the side stringers. No vise yet. i bolted the back stringers to the iron frame of My table, I can't move it. i do have one question. The table is bolted to the other with 4 .1/4 inch bolts is that sufficient or should i go to 5/16ths. Thanks everybody for your input, and for being patient with me as i worked though getting it done


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

congratulations


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

thanks your help was a great help thank you


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

Me again, I built myself into a corner. I want a vise but have not figured out how to do it with a top as thick as mine. I can mortise out the apron but it is a 2×4 and i will lose most of the strength of that side. I have seen some videos that show hold fasts are more versatile and work better than a vise, but i still want a vise. Any Ideas how I can do this, I may have to make my own thanks Mike


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

comment #53 here above


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

ok thanks


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