# Let's talk Carvings & Carving Tools of your dreams



## donwilwol

It's been a while since I started a new thread, and since I started down this carving path, let talk hatches and adzes and gouges and hooked knives.


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## donwilwol




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## DLK

So carving tools or carvings of your dreams or both?


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## donwilwol

> So carving tools or carvings of your dreams or both?
> 
> - Combo Prof


Both of course!!


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## Planeman40

I love making my own carving tools. Here is a link to my projects where photos and descriptions of the tools are located. http://lumberjocks.com/Planeman40/projects


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## chrisstef

Whoa planeman. Your shop made chisels are givin me some serious thought to trying that for myself.

I would love a full set of carving chisels like that. Im very tempted.


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## Planeman40

Be prepared for a lot of hand work, grinding, sharpening and polishing. Also, take a look at the wood lathe "duplicator" I made from ShopNotes just to turn the handles. If you are going to do 62 chisels like I did, you are going to want one. Note in my write-up on the Lumberjocks chisel photo pages I reference where to get the ROUGH hand-forged irons. They are from the best forge in a Chinese city renown for centuries as the center of wood carving. My attitude was if the Chinese could carve Rosewood as they love to do, they must be using good chisels as carving Rosewood is about the same as carving a brick. The rough chisel forgings cost me around $150 for all of them.


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## donwilwol

That's amazing planeman. That's very tempting indeed


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## Brit

This could be interesting. Thanks for starting it Don.


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## Brit

I'm currently in the process of finishing the Jailers keys project you can see in the photo below. I started it ages ago and then go bored with it, so it sat on the shelf. It is a bit further forward than the photo shows now. I'm on the last key, so after that there is a bit of work to do on the ring and then some general clean up and it will be complete.


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## Clarkswoodworking

I have more tools then I need
But I love my carving tools most of all 
And more of them then I need too!


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## Clarkswoodworking

Ok
This is what a nice piece of wood can look like with a little carvin










Go Hawks !!!!!!

Or these ?


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## chrisstef

Can anyone recommend a good micro set? The celtic weave i did recently could have really used some lil baby tools. I picked up a stainless steel set from Lee Valley and i bent the first one i used like a taco in under 30 second. I guess ya get what ya pay for, and $15 wasnt nearly enough.


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## ClaudeF

I have a set of Dockyard micro gouges (Sculpture set) that I use all the time. I got them from Woodcraft several years ago.

Very nice stylized birds!

Claude


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## ToddJB

Ew ew ew, I want to play. I haven't used these at all… yet. But I bought this set off craigslist for $35. Yes, I suck.





































And here is a set of chip carvers I made for a swap last year.


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## donwilwol

ok Todd. That's just mean!!


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## chrisstef

Thanks Claude. Ill take a peek at those.

I still hate you for that score Todd. Like, i really hate you.


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## ClaudeF

I'm green with envy, Todd. those Swiss Made average about $35.00US EACH!!!! Nice looking CC knives also!

Claude


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## pontic




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## Lazyman

This is perfect timing for me. I just carved my first reliefs over the last few days. My first attempts were following Mary Mays free lessons. It helps a lot seeing someone do it before you try it. A few fuzzy spots and some chipsouts but not too bad for first attempts if I may say so myself. 









I'm having a hard time finding free templates that are within my begginer skill level. Anyone have any tips for finding some good templates.


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## Dark_Lightning

WOW, some nice carvings and tools in here! Todd's got us all beat on the tool price, I think. Though one of the guys in my carving club used to work for a motion picture studio, and one of the carpenter gave him a whole roll away of carving tools. I think it has every tool Pfeil ever made in it.

I'm only going to buy tools. It's less work that way. I bought a bunch when I sold my '68 Buick Skylark hot rod.

ClaudeF mentioned Dockyard micro tools. I have all of the sets; I bought them right before they dropped off the map. I hear that they are starting up again, but in the meantime, Flexcut is picking up the slack. I have a bunch of their knives,but none of their micro tools.


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## ClaudeF

Lazyman: those are very good! Here's a site that has lots of patterns:

https://www.lsirish.com/tutorials/woodcarving-tutorials/

Claude


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## BroncoBrian

I whittled a point on a stick once with a swiss army knife. Does that count?


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## Lazyman

> Lazyman: those are very good! Here s a site that has lots of patterns:
> 
> https://www.lsirish.com/tutorials/woodcarving-tutorials/
> 
> Claude
> 
> - ClaudeF


Thanks Claude. I will check that site out. I have to say that watching Mary May do it first makes it pretty easy. I highly recommend her free lessons to anyone who wants to try but doesn't know where to start. Her free lessons are pretty good. I am thinking about subscribing for a month to try some of here other lessons. I *am *going to have to get a few more gouges. These were pretty challenging with only the 4 that I got to start with. As expensive as they are, I am actually contemplating getting the set that Planeman40 got and just making handles for them as I need new ones.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Lazyman: those are very good! Here s a site that has lots of patterns:
> 
> https://www.lsirish.com/tutorials/woodcarving-tutorials/
> 
> Claude
> 
> - ClaudeF


I have a few of Lora's books, they are great. One lesson I got from her that was probably unintended, but was a great one- I was slavishly copying the Grape Leaf Green Man in her wood spirits book, and made a mistake. I noticed that the picture of said carving on the cover didn't look exactly like the one inside the book. So, it was really freeing to see that carvings don't always come out like we originally intended. Just so we fix the mistake so nobody can tell, which most people can't, or don't care anyway; they just appreciate that it is done at all. That's a long way from when I was a design engineer and had specialty tools (for instance) that were mass produced and had to have interchangeable parts. Dimensioning and tolerancing flew right out the window when I started carving! 8^D


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## ClaudeF

Here are two other video sites that are really good step-by-step instructions for beginning carvers:

http://blog.mischel.com/gene-messers-carving-videos/

http://blog.mischel.com/arlene-carverswoodshop-carving-videos/


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## Brit

> I whittled a point on a stick once with a swiss army knife. Does that count?
> 
> - BroncoBrian


That made me chuckle but you know what they say Brian, pictures or it didn't happen.


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## Brit

> Can anyone recommend a good micro set? The celtic weave i did recently could have really used some lil baby tools. I picked up a stainless steel set from Lee Valley and i bent the first one i used like a taco in under 30 second. I guess ya get what ya pay for, and $15 wasnt nearly enough.
> 
> - chrisstef


Henry Taylor make some micro chisels Stef and they have retailers in the USA. https://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/micro.html

Two Cherries is another option. https://twocherriesusa.com/category/carving/micro-carving-tools/micro-tools-with-octagon-handle/


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## Brit

In addition to the online carving instruction already mention, I'm a member of https://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/ which contains all of Chris Pye's instruction. I've watched most of them and he is a great teacher with a wealth of experience in the English tradition.


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## Brit

Does anyone else think it is weird that carving is called carving? I say this because what we present as a carving is not what we have actually carved since that wood is on the floor. So when we have finished perhaps we should say "I present to you my uncarving". Then again, maybe I just need to get out more. LOL.


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## chrisstef

When did they legalize over there Andy?


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## Brit

Can I help it if I'm an original thinker Stef? Did Aristotle and Plato have to endure such jests?


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## chrisstef

Im sayin we can get together and throw some Socrates in there too, Brit.

Thanks for the micro links and the tutorial stuff above gents.

Ive got Laura Irish's book on green men. Ive got a tough time seeing depths. The nose i carved looked like it was done with a rock and a screwdriver. I need to get back on the horse and practice some more.


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## Brit

I was wondering if you'd started your green man yet. Definitely on my bucket list too.

I have wasted far too much time pontificating over which carving tools to buy, but I've now decided I'm going with Ashley Iles. Great range to chose from, I can order direct from the company, great value for money and they're made in the UK based on 'The Sheffield List' in the English tradition. I already have the full set of Peter Benson miniature carving chisels made by Ashley Iles and I love them, so now its time to start collecting their bigger brothers. I've also decided that I'm going to buy new so that I can commission them myself.


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## donwilwol

My guy. All htchet work. My wife says it's creepy.


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## ColonelTravis

Don's Creepy Man….

With all due respect, I agree with your wife. 
At the same time, I can't stop looking at it.

I bought a cactus carved in ironwood many years ago. I'd like to replicate that some day. Shouldn't be too hard. A few years ago I met Mary May at Roy Underhill's shop. She was teaching a class there and I happened to be in NC at that time just visiting, didn't know she was teaching a class. But she showed me what they were doing on break, very nice to explain a few things to me. I've signed up on the free part of her website but I think she's worthwhile for the pay side. Wish I lived closer to her school, I would definitely take a class.


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## ColonelTravis

Andy love your key set.
Nathan - you're doing well with those carvings.

Don's creepy man keeps looking at me….


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## Dark_Lightning

OK, I've been thinking about getting some micro scorps for a project I'm working on, but Lee Valley's are unavailable at the moment. Any other sources? A quick googlization didn't turn up much. I hope I don't have to make my own.


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## Brit

I like it Don and I'm sure Slash would buy it.


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## Dark_Lightning

> I like it Don and I m sure Slash would buy it.
> 
> - Brit


lol. I see what you did there. I like it too!


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## donwilwol

Flew back from a week of business meetings. Finding these waiting made it better.


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## donwilwol




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## theoldfart

Don, i'm having trouble getting used to a post from you that doesn't involve vintage rust. 
Nice carving work though. I need to resurrect my fan carving, a lot of good advice on this thread.


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## donwilwol

Kevin did you look at the hatchet? Maybe not vintage, but definitely a restoration. Note I made the handle out of a beech limb.


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## theoldfart

I missed that. Now the world is back in balance! Nice restore and the handle is choice Don.


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## pontic




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## Brit

Nice work Pontic. I loave the bear with the arm in it's mouth.


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## Brit

Don - You won't regret buying that Mora 106. Just strop it little and often and you'll never have to sharpen it.


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## Brit

...as long as you move it away from that axe head.


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## donwilwol

Hoping Kevin feels more at ease now










And Andy too


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## Brit

Much better.


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## theoldfart

Ahhhhh


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## donwilwol




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## theoldfart

Spammer


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## donwilwol

I ran out of patience waiting for my adze to be mad. The gouge process actually didn't take as long as I expected.


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## helluvawreck

Don, thanks for this post. I love to see all of these wonderful tools.


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## Lazyman

Don, do you have to do anything to prevent cracks in the end grain when you hollow a lot like that?


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## donwilwol

This is the first one I've done. I waxed the ends though. Time will tell if it's enough.


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## Lazyman

I've decided that anyone can learn to carve if they have a good teacher. I really cannot say enough good things about Mary May's online carving lessons. I've only taken her free lessons so far and went from not having a clue to being able to take an image I found online and carving it. I can't draw a stick figure but this carving stuff is fun.


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## donwilwol

Mail call!!


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## ksSlim

hatch/scorp is nice. Where from?


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## donwilwol

> hatch/scorp is nice. Where from?
> 
> - ksSlim


http://axessive.com/. He also sells on Amazon, eBay and etsey and got good reviews in all those. It arrived in about a month.


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## Lazyman

Wow, His axes and adzes are fairly inexpensive, though the shipping costs are likely as much the tools themselves.


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## donwilwol

> Wow, His axes and adzes are fairly inexpensive, though the shipping costs are likely as much the tools themselves.
> 
> - Lazyman


My shipping was less than $20.


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## chrisstef

Dude makes some sweet tools yoda.


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## donwilwol




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## donwilwol

trying out the new adze


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## HokieKen

This probably makes me the ***********************************… But I've been really happy with my Whittlin' Jack from Flexcut on vacation this week. It's been my first real attempt to carve anything but I can see hundreds of hours of fun with this little folder in my future


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## donwilwol

I have that "***********************************" knife or something similar in mind. But then I've got a bit of a *********************************** background as well.


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## HokieKen

If I were buying again Don, I'd probably go with the 3-blade version. It would be nice to have the small detail blade too.


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## donwilwol

> If I were buying again Don, I'd probably go with the 3-blade version. It would be nice to have the small detail blade too.
> 
> - HokieKen


good to know!


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## Lazyman

Perfect timing Kenny. One reason I decided to take up carving is because I see it as something I can do that requires minimal tools if we decide to go live someplace cooler than TX for a month next summer. My next stop was looking for a good whittling knife and giving that a try. Thanks.


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## HokieKen

Nathan,

Dave Kelley bought the carving jack and likes it too. I just have some gouges and v-tools I like so didn't see the need. If you wanted a more complete setup in your pocket, it's probably worth a look.


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## Dark_Lightning

I was looking at the carvin' jack and whittlin' jack, and have a question- how do those feel in your hand, anyone who has one? They look like they're kind of clunky with a lot of edges.


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## HokieKen

> I was looking at the carvin jack and whittlin jack, and have a question- how do those feel in your hand, anyone who has one? They look like they re kind of clunky with a lot of edges.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


I had the same concern. After having used my Whittlin' Jack for a good amount of time, if I were to make a carving knife, I'd probably copy the Jack handle.


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## donwilwol

More pictures if interested.
https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-carving-traveling-tool-box.html


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## theoldfart

And you think I'm obsessed about mitre boxes! Sheesh.


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## HokieKen

That's nice Don! Definitely something I need to ponder once I figure out exactly what tool set is my travelling set.


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## donwilwol

> And you think I'm obsessed about mitre boxes! Sheesh.
> 
> - theoldfart


Well yes, but we never suggested you were alone!!


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## Lazyman

Don, do you or are you planning to take those compartments out when you are using subsets of the tools?


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## Clarkswoodworking

I just wish they did not require to be sharpened as I suck at it !


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## donwilwol

> Don, do you or are you planning to take those compartments out when you are using subsets of the tools?
> 
> - Lazyman


I haven't planned that far ahead.


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## donwilwol

How I made it posted on the blog

https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/08/carving-wooden-spoon-lessons-learned.html


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## donwilwol

Ok


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## HokieKen

I spent a good deal of time on vacation trying to make something that at least remotely resembled this:









I figured the caged balls would be the toughest part so I did those first:









Everything was done using only my Whittlin' Jack:









After both balls were loose, I decided to move on and rough out the next hardest part, the chain link. While in the process, I snapped one of the "bars" on the cage :-( Lesson learned… leave the fragile parts for last…









I have to say, the time I spent whittlin' this little doo-dad was relaxing and a lot of fun. I don't really care that I had nothing to show for it. I learned a lot and enjoyed the journey


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## Lazyman

Nail It! ;-)


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## HokieKen

> Nail It! ;-)
> 
> - Lazyman


I thought about gluing it and finishing it up just for the practice but realized I'd just keep doing the same thing because there's nowhere to hold while carving the ends without putting pressure on the cage. I'll just start over and this time leave a little more "beef" on the cage bars and leave the balls attached to the bars until after the rest of the carving is done


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## Lazyman

Sorry Kenny. I couldn't resist.

As I've discovered with first few relief carvings so far, you learn more from mistakes than you do from everything going as planned. Just curious, did you see any tutorials on carving one those? They save me from lots of mistakes and usually keep the frustration levels down. After seeing your target, I may have to try something like that myself.

Unfortunately, after carving every day for a week+, I've used some muscles that I obviously rarely use and now have tendonitis (I think) so am having to take a days off from carving.


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## HokieKen

I got that project from Whittling Handbook by Peter Benson Nathan. The book has a lot of varied projects with some guidance on each. I wouldn't call them tutorials exactly. More like "carve out the balls first then move on to the chain link" than "carve the two balls first by using tool X and making cuts like this…" There are enough pictures to get the idea though and I think the book is worth the price. At least for the Kindle edition.


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## donwilwol




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## theoldfart

Real nice Don. Olive wood by any chance?


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## donwilwol

> Real nice Don. Olive wood by any chance?
> 
> - theoldfart


Sumac


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## Brit

Don - I can't see your pics, but I'm sure they're good.

Ken - Take a look at how I did my caged ball. http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/65202


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## donwilwol

I tried dumping straight from Google. I wish there was one spot that works with everything


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## donwilwol

Last night! Was doing a little face time in the shop


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## chrisstef

Just wingin this so far …










Working the kinks out for possibly a larger one in the future.


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## HokieKen

> Don - I can t see your pics, but I m sure they re good.
> 
> Ken - Take a look at how I did my caged ball. http://lumberjocks.com/Brit/blog/65202
> 
> - Brit


Thanks for the link Andy! After taking a look at yours, I'm a little ashamed that I even posted mine ;-) I like the idea of making the templates to gauge the diameter. I also need to leave the corners beefier like yours. I like that whole spoon design too.


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## HokieKen

Don, that spoon face is wicked lookin'. Very cool!

Stef, pretty badass man!


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## mpounders

Here is a combined carving and tool! I had Rich at Helvie Knives make this one for me with the blade and handle style I wanted, and the handle was unfinished, so I could decorate it as I wished. The pattern is a combination leatherworking/tatoo that I carved/burned/painted to make it mine. It gets a lot of use and showcases some of my designs also.


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## HokieKen

What a gorgeous piece Mike!


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## Lazyman

That's a beautiful knife handle Mike. It really does look like leatherwork in the pictures. 
EDIT: I just looked at some of the other projects Mike has posted. He's done some really impressive and fun carvings. Check them out if you haven't already.

That's a cool face carving on the spoon Don. I'm going to have to try some carvings like that at some point.

I am also looking forward to seeing how you carve that Skull and Wings Chrisstep. I am especially curious to see what kind of detail you put into the feathers.


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## Dark_Lightning

> I was looking at the carvin jack and whittlin jack, and have a question- how do those feel in your hand, anyone who has one? They look like they re kind of clunky with a lot of edges.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> I had the same concern. After having used my Whittlin' Jack for a good amount of time, if I were to make a carving knife, I'd probably copy the Jack handle.
> 
> - HokieKen


Thanks! That's good to know, because as much as I like having all my knives and chisels in one chest, I don't want to take all that gear camping. The carving and/or whittling jacks would be far more convenient.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Here is a combined carving and tool! I had Rich at Helvie Knives make this one for me with the blade and handle style I wanted, and the handle was unfinished, so I could decorate it as I wished. The pattern is a combination leatherworking/tatoo that I carved/burned/painted to make it mine. It gets a lot of use and showcases some of my designs also.
> 
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> - mpounders


That has to be the nicest handle I've ever seen on a knife!


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## Brit

Nice work fellas. You guys have been busy!


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## donwilwol

I can't believe my luck at the flea market today. A hand forged bowl adze, a spoon knife and scorp.










Oh and a $5 cracked bedrock


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## chrisstef

Damn yoda. You carvin magical spoons over there? Thats an amazing haul.


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## donwilwol

> Here is a combined carving and tool! I had Rich at Helvie Knives make this one for me with the blade and handle style I wanted, and the handle was unfinished, so I could decorate it as I wished. The pattern is a combination leatherworking/tatoo that I carved/burned/painted to make it mine. It gets a lot of use and showcases some of my designs also.
> 
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> - mpounders


That knife is ridiculously sweet.


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## HokieKen

Hey Don!
.
.
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. 
You suck… ;-)


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## donwilwol

> Hey Don!
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> You suck… ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


LOL. That made my day. You'd put that in caps if I had out the price in to.


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## donwilwol

Don't hate me


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## HokieKen

> Hey Don!
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> You suck… ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> LOL. That made my day. You d put that in caps if I had out the price in to.
> 
> - Don W


Oops, I read too quickly, I thought it said it was $5 for the lot. Now I see it was $5 for the Bedrock. From your comment, I'd say it wasn't much more for the lot!


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## Lazyman

I never see anything along those lines in my neck of the woods.


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## pontic

Work in progress. Box alder is finicky to carve.


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## donwilwol

Now we're talking Friday night


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## ToddJB

You need to widdle yourself a rocks glass.


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## donwilwol

> You need to widdle yourself a rocks glass.
> 
> - ToddJB


The oil is drying


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## ToddJB

ha. nice


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## HokieKen

That is nice Don! Dang! I see a whittled beer mug in my future )


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## TheFridge

Love me some box alder.

Trying to incorporate some carving elements into my work.


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## HokieKen

Dang, Fridge does it all!


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## TheFridge

Thanks bud  i try to make nice stuff. Occasionally I post it  as in. I pretty much only post the good stuff.

No complaints with the Pfeil starter set I have. Though I can now see how a variety of tools from adzes on down, start to become useful once you start carving. It's like pringles. You can't have just one.


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## DanKrager

You've caught on early, Fridge. Nice stuff. Good luck with the wish list.

DanK


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## TheFridge

If I was todd then that list would be very short. I am still jealous. It's not right. But I am sensitive when it comes to tools.


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## Brit

> Love me some box alder.
> 
> Trying to incorporate some carving elements into my work.
> 
> - TheFridge


Succeeding dude! Nice work.


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## Brit

I like it Don, but tell me - Did you get fed up spooning the Bird Dog down your throat and then decided to carve a mug?


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## donwilwol

Excellent stuff fridge.

Andy, the Bird Dog never touched the spoon. Maybe I'll try a scoop next though.


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## chrisstef

All good tussin is worth spooning into the gullet.

If you find a bottle of Boondocks whiskey, give it a go Yoda.


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## donwilwol

> All good tussin is worth spooning into the gullet.
> 
> If you find a bottle of Boondocks whiskey, give it a go Yoda.
> 
> - chrisstef


Boondocks noted


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## donwilwol




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## donwilwol

A few more lessons learned

https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/08/carving-wooden-spoon-lessoned-learned.html?m=1


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## donwilwol

Looking for a good lunch time work out? Grab a couple of adzes and a chunk of fire wood and have at it.


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## Brit

Exactly how long is your lunchtime Don?

Looks like a lot of fun.


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## MikeB_UK

Well, you got me all fired up to have a go myself.

So, a likely lump of firewood and some blades









Rough out a blank for the handle & drill a hole









Some shaping, and there we have it, a new way to lop a hole in myself









I'll get the others made this week then embarrass myself by attempting a simple relief carving


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## Brit

Well done Mike.


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## donwilwol

> Exactly how long is your lunchtime Don?
> 
> Looks like a lot of fun.
> 
> - Brit


I can rough in a bowl in about an hour, but I've moved some of this setup outside. This is the fasted way to make a huge mess in the shop. Chips fly for 20 feet in all directions. It's actually worse than the lathe, just minus most of the actual dust.


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## DanKrager

I tried a bowl like that with an adze that I spent a LOT of time on to hone a shaving edge and it was an exercise in futility beyond many of the futile efforts I have attempted, including stick welding! That I was using some semi dry locust had nothing to do with it, did it? I gave up and used the stone cutter's hammer fitted with a 15 mm #9 sweep and finished the interior in 15 minutes, with more than half of that being knife finish, which i sanded. Spoon and bowl from same log, very different appearance. Spoon was axed to rough shape and then finished with sloyd type knife and bent spoon knives.









What are you using to hold the bowls under the adze?

DanK


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## Planeman40

Purists disdain anything but hand work. Bowl carving lends itself to power carving these days. I sometimes wonder if Michelangelo would have used power carving if it was available in his day. I feel pretty sure he would have as would most of his contemporaries.


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## donwilwol

carving dry locust? I once had a piece of dry locust take the teeth off my chainsaw.


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## Brit

Yeah. Some woods are not for carving.


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## TheFridge

Thanks for the compliments 

Honey locust has the big reddish thorns?


----------



## donwilwol

> What are you using to hold the bowls under the adze?
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


I hold the bowl because I'm constantly turning it so the chip split out.


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## DanKrager

Honey locust has the giant long thorns that are as hard a steel and sharper than anything else I know about. They will easily puncture a steel belted tractor tire through the tallest part of the tread, which can be 5" of solid rubber. Black locust thorns are not usually that long, but can be up to 3" in my experience. 21 of them were pulled from a tractor tire I was using to mow a pasture, and we've never figured out why only that one tire was affected because I was running over the bushy stuff all afternoon. It still took two days for the tire to go flat.

Why semi dried locust? Because I can, I guess. With sharp tools it really isn't all that bad, being a bit green on the inside yet. I'm sort of looking to find more of that gorgeous black locust that I turned some bowls out of last year.

My adze is too big for the size bowls I'm working on, I've concluded. It did seem like a 3" diameter adze #11 sweep profile would work on this 5×12" bowl. I can't seem to control the things landing zone well enough to have body parts anywhere close. I tried again today with more of a push-shaving action than chopping on an open ended scoop, but quickly gave up. Now my 3 lb carving hatchet is a different story and I can seem to direct that with consistent precision, and it rough shaped 3 more objects of locust in short order. I just don't get it yet. I understand how it can work, but like stick welding, just can't seem to do it yet. I've watched video after video of people doing it, so I know it can be done. I admire their skill.
DanK


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## donwilwol

One of the hardest pieces of information to find was what size adze to buy. I've found smaller is better. These two work great.


----------



## DanKrager

Thank you for confirming my intuition. The adze I have came with an array of new Pfeil scorps of various sizes and at less than $40 apiece with shipping for 5 high end items, I couldn't complain. What you are showing makes a lot of sense and I could see them working well. Must. Try. One.

Or two.

DanK


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## FloridaCracker

I have not done any carving in a wile. Cant say I ever done large scale like what I see here. My carving are small. largest was a squirrel Florida sized. It would hang from a shelf by it front hands. I have somewhere a set of hand carving chisels but mostly I used a Dremel. I wont use any type of folding knife lock blade or not. I am interested in trying a chain saw carving. Also when I say small I made gargoyles for a library book shelf were the gargoyles are only between 2-3 inches tall.


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## donwilwol

Todays lunch break sweat feast


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## HokieKen

Nice Don. Bet that did perc a little perspiration;-)


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## DanKrager

Like.

DanK


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## Brit

Great shape Don. What spalted wood is that?


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## donwilwol

> Great shape Don. What spalted wood is that?
> 
> - Brit


It's beech


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## donwilwol

I had a short lunch break today.


----------



## Lazyman

> Like.
> 
> DanK
> 
> - Dan Krager


LOL. I initially thought "DanK" was you remarking about Kenny's comment about perspiration. Then I noticed you capitalized the K and realized it was your signature.


----------



## chrisstef

What kind of knives do you fellas suggest for spoon carving? A spoon knofe is fairly obvious but what else do I need. Detail knife? Whittling knife? Theres a couple sets on Amazon ive been eyeballing.

Bundle - 3 Items: Morakniv Wood Carving 164 Knife (No Sheath), Morakniv Wood Carving 163 Knife (No Sheath), Morakniv Wood Carving 120 Knife (with Sheath) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QAYTI0I/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_99AJBbBBXYPHA

Or

Wood Carving Tools Set for Spoon Carving 3 Knives in Tools Roll Leather Strop and Polishing Compound Hook Sloyd Detail Knife https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0792BXHBD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Q.AJBb4Z918HN


----------



## chrisstef

Or this

Narex 869800 3-Piece Spoon Carving Set with Double-Edge Hook Knife, Spoon Carving Gouge, Dual Bevel Detail Carving Knife and Limewood Spoon Blank https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BRGQVLV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_JdBJBb7DQRZ68


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## donwilwol

I bought the more 106 and like it for spoons. Stay away from the Beavercraft stuff. You get what you pay for.

All you need beyond the knife is a hook knife or a twca. I bought a forged twca blade off Etsy and really like it.

I can't for the life of me get the Beavercraft Hook knife sharp. It came sharp, but I can't figure out how to sharpen it.

I'll probably eventually buy a hook knife of just another twca and put a short handle on it.


----------



## donwilwol

The twca is from primitivehunter.net


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## donwilwol

You could make your own, https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/?m=1


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## Phil32

Here is my meager supply of carving tools. The ones I use on a current project are in the smaller box. The box is only 7-1/2" x 11," but it holds 21 full size gouges and a couple of knives. The other photo is the chip carving on the top of the smaller toolbox. The larger box is the Pfeil Brienz collection, since modified to hold eight more gouges (in place of the mallet).


----------



## Brit

Lovely tools Phil and nice chip carving too.

Stef - I'm a big fan of the Mora 106 that Don shows. That is a lot of knife for your money and I'd rate it over a lot more expensive offerings. As far as doing the bowl of a spoon, there are three options really. 1) Buy a quality hook knife (I use a Hans Karlsson), 2) Use a shortbent gouge with a suitable sweep, or 3) a TWCA cam as Don Suggested.
Options 1 and 2 are best for eating spoons. Option 3 would be my choice for larger serving spoons and ladles.

Edit: I meant to say that if you use a hook knife you can hold your work in your hand. If you use a shortbent gouge or a TWCA cam, you have the most control if you use the tool with two hands so you would have to find a way to secure your spoon blank while carving the bowl. It is possible to use a shortbent gouge or a TWCA cam with one hand, but you would need to choke up on the tools and keep your fingers well out of the way.


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## donwilwol

I use my TWCA cam just like a hook knife. BUT…I made the handle shorter than is usually on a TWCA cam. You might call it a hybrid. As far as I can tell, the only real difference is the length of the handle. Hook knives come in a variety of bends and shapes, making it impossible for a beginner to even know where to start. Add to that the fact that every reputable blacksmith is usually sold out of EVERYTHING.

Something worth reading 
https://barnthespoon.com/blog/2012/06/twca-cam.html


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## Brit

> Add to that the fact that every reputable blacksmith is usually sold out of EVERYTHING.
> 
> - Don W


Ain't that the truth! I have my money for my Hans Karlsson adze waiting to be spent as soon as I get an email from the UK site that sells them telling me they are back in stock. Early Autumn apparently. I tell you Don, if I'm in a meeting or sitting on the bog when that email lands, I'm jumping straight on that site to buy one before they disappear off the face of the earth again for another year.


----------



## donwilwol

https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/09/making-alaskian-style-flat-adze.html


----------



## chrisstef

I appreciate all the advice fellas. I got some pondering to do.


----------



## HokieKen

Stef, I don't have much experience, and zero with spoon carving, but I will say I got my he Narex starter set of carving knives and was solidly unimpressed. The handles are awkward, they feel flimsy and don't hold an edge at all. My vintage Millers Falls set is light years better. Their spoon knives may be a whole different animal but if it were me, I'd probably go a different direction…


----------



## Lazyman

My wife alerted me to an estate sale today that had I bunch of wood for sale. I picked up a few myrtle turning blanks for a good price but the find of the day were these carving tools. Most of the gouges were $7.50 and the carving knives about half that. And I only got maybe half of the gouges but didn even make a dent in the knives, though there were lots of duplicates of those. Not sure why the guy painted most of his handles orange unless he used them for demos or classes and didn't want them walking away. 









Edit: The remaining tools will be another 25% off tomorrow if any of you are int the Richardson, TX. area tomorrow. There is also a ton of wood. A lot are smaller but there are a few long 8/4-at 50% off those will be a great deal tomorrow.


----------



## chrisstef

Whoa. Thats a friggin haul! ^.

Pulled the trigger on Mora 106, 120 and 164 hook knife. Be here saturday. Ill scoop some cherry and basswood next week and try my hand at a couple spoons while camping 2 weels from today.


----------



## donwilwol

> Whoa. Thats a friggin haul! ^.
> 
> Pulled the trigger on Mora 106, 120 and 164 hook knife. Be here saturday. Ill scoop some cherry and basswood next week and try my hand at a couple spoons while camping 2 weels from today.
> 
> - chrisstef


Excellent.

Great Score Nathan


----------



## HokieKen

Nice grab Nathan!

Good call Stef. I think that's the way I probably woulda gone too based on the advice of Yoda and the fellow with the funny accent ;-)


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## chrisstef

I may regret the small hook knife but well see. Justification to spend more money on a tools (twca) is welcomed if i find i enjoy spoons and stuff.

Ohh, bought cut gloves too. Ill certainly be drinkin during my first spoon. Safety third!


----------



## ToddJB

> Ill certainly be drinkin during my first spoon.
> 
> - chrisstef


Why do you speak as if this hasn't already happened?


----------



## chrisstef

Whoa.

Im slippin.

Your hair elastic is still on the nightstand btw.


----------



## HokieKen

Todd beat me to it! No worries, I was drunk for my first spoon too ;-)


----------



## Andybb

> Ok
> This is what a nice piece of wood can look like with a little carvin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Clarkswoodworking


Holy heck partner! You never showed me those before. Nice work!

P.S. Turn that phone horizontally. ;-)


----------



## donwilwol

Stef, you won't regret the small hook knife, but you'll soon find you'll need a large hook knife, then a medium hook knife, then a medium large hook, then a smaller large hook knife….......and you haven't bought a gouge yet??

Those owls are awesome!!


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## donwilwol

I am beginning to like maple


----------



## Brit

Mmmm…maple. That's an exotic hardwood to us limeys.


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## donwilwol

My first 2 successful hook knives

https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/09/making-my-first-successful-carving.html


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## chrisstef

Yoda gonna have one swole arm after all that adze work.


----------



## HokieKen

Yoda uses the force. No arms required.


----------



## donwilwol

Some days you want to carve a spoon, some days a bowl. Today I decided to carve a *BOWL*


----------



## MikeB_UK

> Mmmm…maple. That s an exotic hardwood to us limeys.
> 
> - Brit


Loads of sycamore near me, y'aint looking hard enough Andy


----------



## pontic




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## donwilwol

I'm out in the dark, whacking on a split piece of birch destine to be a bowl to try this out. It needs a little refinement, a lot more sharpening, handle needs wedging and finish, and the paint isn't dry, but it already works far better than the one I sent back to the "professional" blacksmith. I'll have a blog post when it's ready.


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## Dark_Lightning

I'm working on a carving (coat of arms) that has a lot of undercutting to it. In order to get some practice and knowledge of how much I can hack the wood, I'm making a high relief carving of the "Oak Leaf Motif" in Lora Irish's book. I was looking at tools to get into the base to relieve that area and found the Pfeil undercutting tools at Woodcraft, but they are full size and I want palm sized tools. I'll be getting some tool steel shortly and make some tools. I have expansion space in one drawer of the chest I built, just for something that I could think of later to buy. But it looks like what I want doesn't exist, so make them, I will. Left, right, straight, and likely in a few widths. Don't want to get carried away, though; I'd have to make another chest to hold a bunch. This one doesn't have room for the Henry Taylor chisels, as it is.


----------



## HokieKen

Another masterpiece from yours truly ;-0


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## Dark_Lightning

^ Nice! Congrats to the lucky couple!

I'll be going to get the steel for my chisels Friday the 5th. I'm looking at making the tools so that they fit in a handle, to lower the cost. One handle, many tips. I'm still calling around for availability of the steel, and to see if I can find a handle with a collet for the diameter rod (3/16") that I want to use. One handle probably isn't going to happen, though, from what I'm seeing on line. Maybe I'm just missing it.


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## donwilwol

I decided to carve a knife out of a file to carve a spoon. Which became a salad tosser by no fault of the knife.


----------



## theoldfart

That's an epic journey Don.


----------



## chrisstef

Just reducing drag on the stirring action imo.


----------



## socrbent

Don, Thanks for creating this thread. I've done about a dozen spoons with a Morakniv carving hook. 

























Anyone able to comment on the quality of the deep wood spoon carver and twca cam knives?


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Change of plans, from my post above. Took a drive to Ventura and picked up left skew and straight Pfeil "Drake" undercut chisels. They didn't have the right skew chisel, so that will have to be ordered. Also picked up the small Pfeil Abegglen detail knife. Used my Woodcraft birthday card for 10% off. Got a ride in the country (didn't take the freeway) with my wife, for a nice relaxing day. I decided that buying, heating and bending, tempering and annealing steel in the minimal space I have with no real forming tooling was out of the question. Plus, people in my carving class were making noises about wanting said shapes, and I'm retired; I'm not really interested in making a production run.

I'm still looking for some micro-scorps. I really don't want to have to make them but that may be what it comes down to.


----------



## donwilwol

It's not pretty but working like a charm. It's made from an old power hacksaw blade. I'll clean it up and finish the handle and there is enough hacksaw blade for several more!


----------



## PCDub

Don-can you show a bit of how you made that?


----------



## donwilwol

> Don-can you show a bit of how you made that?
> 
> - PCDub


I plan to make a few more. I'll document it.


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## Brit

Ingenious Don. Bravo!


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## Phil32

Don - You might consider crafting your crooked knife like Kestral - sharpened on both sides with variable curves, so it can be used left or right handed, pull or push:



















These are blades I hafted with handles of curly maple and afromosia.


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## donwilwol

Some trial and error, some mistakes made, but the process is starting to come together. The one on the left was accidentally made left handed but works, the second one worked but the temper was wrong so it snapped in use. I may be able to save it as a smaller knife. The next 3 work very well. Better than the two I've bought. The one in the right was meant to be a scorp but I got a little to aggressive with not enough heat and one leg snapped. It may still work as a hook.


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## donwilwol

> Don - You might consider crafting your crooked knife like Kestral - sharpened on both sides with variable curves, so it can be used left or right handed, pull or push:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are blades I hafted with handles of curly maple and afromosia.
> 
> - Phil32


Nice job! When you say variable curves, does that mean different knives have different curves or something else?


----------



## Phil32

The curvature varies on a single blade and many different crooked blades are offered. The advantage is that a single crooked knife functions as several different sweeps of traditional carving gouges. These are not limited to carving bowls or spoons. They work well for shaping flat or convex surfaces.

These come out of the Pacific Northwest (First Nations) carving tradition. Beginning carvers would start by making their own tools out of salvaged metals (saw blades, car leaf springs). This taught them a lot about the metals and how their tools would be maintained.


----------



## DanKrager

I finally got a round tuit and can cross off one item from my bucket list. A shave horse has been on the wish list for a long time and if I had ever dreamed it would be this simple to get one, I would have done it a long time ago. Should've. Would'ves and should'ves.










And the bonus is it's also a spoon mule.










Both adjustable height because the workbench is. Very portable. All scrap wood.

DanK


----------



## donwilwol

> Don-can you show a bit of how you made that?
> 
> - PCDub


https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/10/making-hook-knives.html


----------



## waho6o9

Nice logo Don


----------



## donwilwol

> Nice logo Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - waho6o9


That's the work of Cpt Paul he does the design.


----------



## PCDub

Thanks!


> Don-can you show a bit of how you made that?
> 
> - PCDub
> 
> https://timetestedtoolswoodcarvings.blogspot.com/2018/10/making-hook-knives.html
> 
> - Don W


----------



## DanKrager

Honey locust. Man this stuff is hard.



















...because it was what I had on hand and this is what I saw in it.

DanK

Edit: these pictures lost a lot of resolution in the transport apparently. They're very crisp locally.


----------



## socrbent

Amazing - Instead id carving I wouldn't have been surprised if you had used a grinder and Dremel tool.  Honey Locust is hard.


----------



## donwilwol

Carving locust. We're you using a rock hammer.


----------



## DanKrager

I have a pneumatic rock hammer (carver style) but I didn't use it. I save that for large bowls. I used a carving knife mostly on the outside and a #9 gouge on the inside rough and a #5 to finish. The gouges would take fairly large chips, but the knife would only produce chips about chain saw size. Just don't have the leverage with a knife that gouges can achieve and still be controllable. The outside cuts also wanted to split away ahead of the cut, so small was good. Didn't do that on inside.

DanK


----------



## Brit

<a>I took a few photos of some of my carving tools for your edification. You can click each one to see them in a higher resolution if you'd like. Just hit your browser back arrow to return here.

<a>Peter Benson mini carving chisels made by Ashley Iles.

<a>

Mora carving knives from L-R 122, 106, 120

<a>

Lee Ferguson detail carving knives

<a>

Assorted carving knives. L-R Pinewood Forge (Del Stubbs) kolrosing knife, Lee Ferguson kolrosing knife, Wayne Barton chip carving knife, 2 x Ron Hock chip carving knives, 4 x Pfeil carving knives.

<a>

Now close your mouths. They're mine I tell you!


----------



## socrbent

These carving chisels featuring Buck Bros., Ashley Iles, and Greenlee were auctioned of last night on EBTH.com for $625. do you have an opinion about whether the buyer got a good deal?


----------



## Brit

I'd say that was a fair price for them.


----------



## donwilwol

Wow both of you?!


----------



## Phil32

As a woodcarver I'd say this collection is over priced. Some of the tools are not used for carving. Most of the mini gouges are of limited use and difficult to maintain. If your true hobby is tool acquisition, this is a start.


----------



## donwilwol

This one came out much better than the last one, although even that one is being used.









..It also ame out of an old file.


----------



## Phil32

I recommend that you consider a longer haft (handle) on your crooked knife. Native Americans developed a long history of crooked knives, which they generally use with a pulling motion. The longer handle provides leverage. This illustration is from a museum in Bar Harbor, Maine:


----------



## donwilwol

I have a few with longer handles


----------



## donwilwol




----------



## Brit

Looks good Don.

I finally finished my Jailer's Keys carving.










Take a look at the following post for the back story…


----------



## DanKrager

Brit, that is awesome! The finish and detail are so convincing! Without seeing the process or hefting it, one would be hard pressed to convince anyone it's wood. What a craftsman!

DanK


----------



## Brit

Much appreciated Dan!


----------



## Phil32

> I took a few photos of some of my carving tools for your edification. You can click each one to see them in a higher resolution if you d like. Just hit your browser back arrow to return here.
> 
> Peter Benson mini carving chisels made by Ashley Iles.
> 
> Mora carving knives from L-R 122, 106, 120
> 
> Lee Ferguson detail carving knives
> 
> Assorted carving knives. L-R Pinewood Forge (Del Stubbs) kolrosing knife, Lee Ferguson kolrosing knife, Wayne Barton chip carving knife, 2 x Ron Hock chip carving knives, 4 x Pfeil carving knives.
> 
> Now close your mouths. They re mine I tell you!
> 
> - Brit


I'm curious about the knives labeled with "pfeil swiss made." To the best I can find, Pfeil does not label their tools with the Pfeil name, only the arrow symbol and the words "Swiss Made." The company catalog I obtained in Brienz, Switzerland does not show these knives or any similar. Woodcraft has an exclusive dealership for Pfeil tools in the U.S. and they don't show these knives either. It would appear that someone is using the name to promote their own products. This would of course be illegal.

I also went back to look at the photo of Pfeil gouges. They do not have factory marks. All of my Pfeil gouges have the arrow logo on the shank in front of the handle.


----------



## ToddJB

Andy, that's quite the collection. Of your Mora's do you find yourself using one more than another?


----------



## Phil32

[/QUOTE]

I also went back to look at the photo of Pfeil gouges. They do not have factory marks. All of my Pfeil gouges have the arrow logo on the shank in front of the handle.

- Phil32
[/QUOTE]

Oops - I looked again and the arrow factory mark is faintly visible.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

One of the gals in my carving class has a set of knives ostensibly made by Pfeil. I'll have to look at those blades again. I think that she was in a group of carvers that attend this class that have gone to Germany more than once for the learning experience. I think she only shows up on Thursday, so I might forget to ask. We'll see.


----------



## Phil32

There are knives marked "swiss made" sold by Woodcraft, and many people would know that refers to Pfeil. They have one chip carving knife marked "Pfeil swiss made," but not others. I have some identical knives marked "Woodcraft." 
The knife that Pfeil includes in their Brienz Collection is more of a bench knife with an octagonal handle. Ironically, it has "PFEIL" stamped into the blade. Knives are somewhat shunned by European carving schools - everything can be done with gouges. So, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pfeil knives are sub-contracted to other tool manufacturers.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Like I say, I'll check out what she has. This is interesting! Whatever comes out of it, her knives are very nicely made. Feel and fit to the hand, they beat Flexcut, in my book. I put CoFlex wraps on my Flexcut knives due to the slippery finish, which was still too slick, even after grinding them with 120 grit sandpaper. The (alleged) Pfeil knives felt good and were not slippery, just like their palm chisels. I'll have an answer soon.


----------



## Brit

> I took a few photos of some of my carving tools for your edification. You can click each one to see them in a higher resolution if you d like. Just hit your browser back arrow to return here.
> 
> Peter Benson mini carving chisels made by Ashley Iles.
> 
> Mora carving knives from L-R 122, 106, 120
> 
> Lee Ferguson detail carving knives
> 
> Assorted carving knives. L-R Pinewood Forge (Del Stubbs) kolrosing knife, Lee Ferguson kolrosing knife, Wayne Barton chip carving knife, 2 x Ron Hock chip carving knives, 4 x Pfeil carving knives.
> 
> Now close your mouths. They re mine I tell you!
> 
> - Brit
> 
> I m curious about the knives labeled with "pfeil swiss made." To the best I can find, Pfeil does not label their tools with the Pfeil name, only the arrow symbol and the words "Swiss Made." The company catalog I obtained in Brienz, Switzerland does not show these knives or any similar. Woodcraft has an exclusive dealership for Pfeil tools in the U.S. and they don t show these knives either. It would appear that someone is using the name to promote their own products. This would of course be illegal.
> 
> I also went back to look at the photo of Pfeil gouges. They do not have factory marks. All of my Pfeil gouges have the arrow logo on the shank in front of the handle.
> 
> - Phil32


Phil - Take a look here: http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/miscellaneous-tools.html


----------



## Brit

> Andy, that s quite the collection. Of your Mora s do you find yourself using one more than another?
> 
> - ToddJB


I bought the 106 (the longest one) first and got very used to handling it before buying the other two, so I naturally reach for that one Todd. If I could only have one, that would be it.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> I took a few photos of some of my carving tools for your edification. You can click each one to see them in a higher resolution if you d like. Just hit your browser back arrow to return here.
> 
> Peter Benson mini carving chisels made by Ashley Iles.
> 
> Mora carving knives from L-R 122, 106, 120
> 
> Lee Ferguson detail carving knives
> 
> Assorted carving knives. L-R Pinewood Forge (Del Stubbs) kolrosing knife, Lee Ferguson kolrosing knife, Wayne Barton chip carving knife, 2 x Ron Hock chip carving knives, 4 x Pfeil carving knives.
> 
> Now close your mouths. They re mine I tell you!
> 
> - Brit
> 
> I m curious about the knives labeled with "pfeil swiss made." To the best I can find, Pfeil does not label their tools with the Pfeil name, only the arrow symbol and the words "Swiss Made." The company catalog I obtained in Brienz, Switzerland does not show these knives or any similar. Woodcraft has an exclusive dealership for Pfeil tools in the U.S. and they don t show these knives either. It would appear that someone is using the name to promote their own products. This would of course be illegal.
> 
> I also went back to look at the photo of Pfeil gouges. They do not have factory marks. All of my Pfeil gouges have the arrow logo on the shank in front of the handle.
> 
> - Phil32
> 
> Phil - Take a look here: http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/miscellaneous-tools.html
> 
> - Brit


Beat me to it! The Schaller and Canard in large and small are exactly what the gal in my carving class has! Too bad I didn't see these before I bought the Flexcut knives. I'll check 'em out, next class.


----------



## Phil32

Thanks Dark Lightning for the clarification. I stand corrected. It is nice to know the Pfeil is changing with the times.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Ain't no thing, Phil. I only learned of them a few weeks ago.


----------



## HokieKen

Dang, this thread kinda petered out eh? Well, allow me to breathe some life into it 

So, after reading through some of Andy's carving exploits with his love spoon and his jailer's keys, I ordered a Mora 106 knife for my upcoming vacation in a couple of weeks. Andy's projects interest me because they are the types of projects I'm drawn to attempting.

And obviously if I use the same knife as Andy, then I'll be able to execute the projects as well as he does. Right? ;-)

But, I'm wondering if I should grab myself a hook knife too. I have an assortment of small gouges, a few detail knives and a couple chip-carving knives. But, if I were to take a notion to carve a spoon, I don't really have anything to accomplish it efficiently.

So, using Andy's spoon that I linked, what are some recommendations for a hook knife to do that spoon with? It doesn't even have to be a specific tool. I'm just clueless. If I were to want to go online and order one now, I would be guessing at size. I'm tempted to just forge myself a couple and try them out. However, it's awfully hard to make a tool and know if you made it well when you don't have an example to compare it to…


----------



## HokieKen

While waiting for suggestions, I decided to have a poke around ebay. This looks like a hell of a bargain. 









If it was free shipping, I would probably grab it. They've sold over 200 so it must be a deal, right?


----------



## ToddJB

Just make sure you don't fall for this scam on Amazon. No way it could be that cheap, if ebay is charging such a fair rate.


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## socrbent

Hmmm - I love my Morakniv hook knife 164. But paid $43 in July 2017. Would never have paid $499.00. But envy the $23.97 prime price.


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## Brit

That $499 seller is having a laugh. He needs to go and sharpen his pencil.

Ken - I use a Hans Karlsson hook knife. I also have a couple of his palm gouges. You can rely on the quality of Hans Karlsson tools and they are ready to go when you receive them. Other renowned makers are:

Ben Orford
Svante Djarv
Robin Wood
Del Stubbs

I have never used a Mora 164, but they are what a lot of people start out with. Might need a bit of honing though to get it working nice.

I would recommend getting a hook knife with a compound curve to the edge which will allow you to make different cuts according to what the bowl of the spoon requires. Some of the above manufacturers will also sell you just the blade (which works out a bit cheaper) so you can fit your own handle.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Andy! Nice looking stuff on those sites. A bit expensive at this stage though since I'm not sure I'll even use it. Fortunately, I'm a decent hand at making stuff sharp so maybe I'll give the Mora a whirl to see if I like it. It's only $499 ;-)


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## HokieKen

I ended up with a Mora 106 and liked it so well, I went out yesterday and got a 120. Between those two and my Whittlin'Jack, I'm enjoying the heck out of whittlin' this week on vacation. In the Smokey Mountains in TN taking in the spring. Here's what I have to show so far. And this is a huge leap forward for me ;-)


----------



## Phil32

Nice, HokieKen -


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## donwilwol

Nice work!


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## Brit

How did I miss that Kenny. Great job sir!


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## HokieKen

Thanks fellas. It started out with a chain and padlock on the bottom like Andy's wedding spoon but things didn't go so well with the chain links :-/ More a problem of poor planning and layout than anything.


----------



## HokieKen

Back home from vacation. Managed to squeeze in a whittlin' for two of the grandkids.


















Mora 106 and 120 have become two must-haves. The Flexcut Whittlin' Jack is an excellent complement to them. The Jack is also great 'cause it goes in the pocket and is always handy when your wife springs shopping on you after dinner ;-)


----------



## Brit

When Hans Karlsson adzes were all the rage, I pontificated so long that they became rare. For the last 2 or 3 years as soon as they make a batch, they are gone within a day. I've been on notification lists for one for ages, but I couldn't wait any longer. I looked for a similar quality adze from Svante Djarv, but they aren't available either anywhere that I could find. Well today I took the decision to buy the following adze from a blacksmith in the Ukraine. It was the last one in stock. Hand forged from 1066 steel with ash handle. If the photos are anything to go by, this will be a fine tool.























































I can't wait.


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## Lazyman

That's a beaut. I would buy one just to show off. Using it would be a bonus.


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## woodcox

Beautiful, Andy. I like the mark.


----------



## Brit

Just blown the tool budget for next month too. In their purchase confirmation email for the adze, they offered 10% off anything else I wanted to purchase with combined postage if I order within 48 hours, so of course I couldn't pass on that. I've also ordered these beauties:

Little straight drawknife




































Long spoon bent chisel


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## donwilwol

looks like your ready to rock Andy


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## Brit

I know right! A couple of weeks ago I was driving through the New Forest National Park and someone had cut up a tree that had fallen across the road. There was a section of tree trunk about 14" in diameter and about 20" long just sitting beside the road. I popped the boot and chucked it in the trunk. It doesn't come much easier than that. LOL. I've got it sealed in a plastic bin liner at the moment, so that was why I went hunting for an adze.

Life is good!


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## Brit

And I got 15% off the last two items, not 10%.


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## Phil32

I realize that Brit now has his adze. For those still looking, I'd recommend Kestrel Tools on Lopez Island, WA. Here's a link: http://www.kestreltool.com/adzes/


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## donwilwol




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## Phil32

A good adze can be a very effective carving tool, especially for shaping a chunk of wood. A few years ago I took a class from a "First Nations" carver in British Columbia. He had made all of his tools as part of his "apprenticeship."










The adze was forged from a piece of auto leaf spring. The crooked knives were made from saw seel. The haft (handle) of the adze was a carefully chosen branch crook of Pacific Yew. Note the steep angle of the blade to haft. We were taught to use this adze while holding the chunk of wood between our legs.










Mostly I used it for hogging out the back of this raven mask:


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## Brit

After buying the adze I posted above (which I still don't have yet), I stumbled on an 'as new' Svante Djarv small adze on ebay.co.uk. Hasn't seen much use. The auction finished at 08:30am this morning, just before I was about to deliver a big presentation at a client site. I was making small talk with theclient and all the time I was looking over their shoulder at clock on the wall. At 08:28 I excused myself and won the auction, then went back in the room and delivered a blinder.

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do right. LOL.

So after a few frustrating years without finding a suitable adze anywhere, I now have two. At least I will have once they both arrive.


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## Phil32

These are the carving tools "of my dreams," and my reality: The smaller box contains the gouges needed for the current project. The larger box contains the rest - Pfeil's "Brienz Collection" in a beechwood box (no longer available).


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## HokieKen

This is far beyond my current capability but I saw it the other day and though it was really unique. If I ever progress to the point that I feel like I'm up to the challenge, I might give it a go 









In other news… I was asking you fellas about hook knives back in March. Well, I've hemmed and hawed over it since then. I had about decided I was just going to make my own after reading about Don's adventures with hacksaw blades on his site. But, I haven't gotten to it and don't see me having time to get to it before our beach trip in August. So, this morning I just broke down and ordered a Mora 164. At least I'll have one to play with…

Also bought a second Flexcut Whittlin' Jack. I was looking for a small detail knife and Flexcut has one I really like. While browsing ebay for one, I stumbled on a the used Jack for a good price. So, now I have 2 whittlin' jacks. My plan is to grind one of the blades down to the size/shape of the detail knife I was after. That will leave me one blade to re-shape when next I decide I need a new one  I really like those Flexcut jack knives )


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## donwilwol

We'll want to see tha wood pecker pretty soon


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## HokieKen

Deal Don! Here ya go:









I'm such a smart ass…


----------



## HokieKen

Well, project "Kenny Jack" is under way!

Step one is to modify the large blade on the Flexcut Whittlin' Jack. The model is the Flexcut Pelican blade:









I obviously had to work with the size and shape of the existing blade but after roughing it out on the bench grinder, I think it's gonna turn into a nice useful blade for the small projects I tackle. I like having a blade that has a curve to it for smooth slicing cuts and wanted something with a slim profile for things like balls in a cage and chain links.

Here's where she sits as of now (shown with the original blade shape underneath):









I'll use some finer abrasives to refine the shape and then stones to grind in the bevels next. Any words of wisdom from experienced eyes are welcomed!


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## HokieKen

After some file work and grinding the bevels in on a oil stone:


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## HokieKen

And so this has begun…









This is a piece off an apple limb that's fairly green. However this Mora knife doesn't seem to be efficient at getting the job done. Bear in mind this is my first attempt at a spoon or at using this knife.

I feel like I need additional leverage. Like using it on the push cut. But not so much for control as sheer force, if that makes sense. However, most of the videos I've seen indicate I should be able to do this on the pull.

My gut says "this bevel is WAY too steep". My brain says "tough $h!+, you'll never get it re-shaped without royally screwing it up sausage fingers".

Any advice from the guys who know what the heck they're doing? I've stropped the edge. It's sharp. And it cuts. But more like a tiny hatchet than a carving knife…

TIA for any feedback!


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## DavePolaschek

Take a look at the hook knife session of the Swedish knife grip sessions. Jögge will show you how it's done.


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## HokieKen

Thanks Dave! That is helpful. Not so much the grip part but the fact that he works it cross-grain. That didn't dawn on me


----------



## woodcox

This is the shape it should be to feel less hatchety, Kenny. I don't think you would ruin it, but it would be a job reshaping it. 








Maybe try some bigger server size bowls with the mora.


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## DavePolaschek

Yeah, Kenny. The thing that helps me from one of his videos isn't always the thing he stresses most, but I learned something from each of those, and now it's just a matter of practicing until it all comes together.

Glad it helped you.


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## Lazyman

Like putting the band aid on before you cut your thumb!


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## HokieKen

Thanks WC. Seeing the two profiles side-by-side like that is definitely helpful!

Yeah, I thought that was an interesting thumb guard too Nathan


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## HokieKen

I finally got around to finishing this re-shaping up. I think it'll be handy to have a radiused blade handy on a pocket jack. Time will tell…









Compared to original shape:


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## Phil32

Take a look at the crooked knives of Kestrel Tools:
http://www.kestreltool.com/the-kestrel-crooked-knife/

Note that the handle is extended out so you get leverage with your thumb. Also, it is sharpened on both edges so you can use either hand or use it in a push or pull mode. This is based on the Pacific NW Native carving tools that were developed over centuries.

Don't try to pull the entire Mora blade through the wood - especially if carving wood like apple. Use part of the tighter curve near the tip.


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## HokieKen

Thanks Phil. I did look at their knives and some other, high-end ones. I went with the Mora because I can't justify spending that much money on a knife that I'm not even sure at this point I'll use very much. I may not even enjoy carving spoons/bowls. And, even if I fall in love with it, at this point, I don't have the experience to know which of those knives to buy if I was buying one. So, I'll experiment in the lower price range then step it up if I see a need


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## Phil32

I agree with your logic. I bought two blades several years ago and hafted them myself. This was after taking a class from a "First Nations" carver who introduced me to his self-made tools of this tradition. I have done some carvings with the crooked knives, but go back to my European type gouges for most work.

Crooked knives put all of the stress on your hand & wrist. There is no way to "assist" them with a mallet as with out traditional gouges.


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## DanKrager

I've been intrigued by the long handled crooked knives that involve one's forearm or shoulder for leverage. Maybe I'll try one some day.

I'm glad that I didn't start with a two edged spoon knife. I found myself crowding the back of the blade to get extra leverage and my thumb sometimes got down on the sharp part. I've learned not to do that, of course, but it helped to cut the injury chances down to minimal with only one sharp edge while learning. Some day, when I grow up, maybe two edges, but I've learned to compensate even by trading hands. Good relief for the strain on one.

DanK


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## HokieKen

I know what you mean Dan. At first, I thought I should get a double-edged model so I could experiment with cuts in both directions. However, after limited use, I find that for me the best method for a smooth, controlled finishing cut is to push using my thumb to apply pressure and guide it. Glad I didn't get a dual bevel. I go through way too many band aids as it is!


----------



## HokieKen

Alright, I hate to ask sharpening questions since everybody does but, I'm going to anyway  Being fairly new to whittling/carving I'm not intimately familiar with the really fine angles, straight edges and flat bevels used on whittling knives. In particular, referring to the small blade on my Flexcut Whittling Jack.









A while back I purchased a second one of these knives with the intent to modify the blade shapes. Well, I felt like the small blade on my original knife had gotten harder to make fine "planing" cuts (not sure of proper terminology but a long cut at a constant, shallow depth) than it had been when new. It seemed extremely sharp but not as fluid as it had once been. Well, long-story-short, in comparing it to the smaller blade on the newer knife I had just purchased, I finally came to the conclusion that over that past couple of years I had rounded the bevels through repeated stropping. This was only evident on the smaller blade but, I use that blade far more than the larger one so it's been stropped a lot more. I decided that the small strop I carry with my carving tools had leather with too much give and that had caused the issue.

So, I made a new strop with a thinner piece of leather. Then I set to flattening the bevels back out. I coated the blade in layout dye and started with a soft Arkansas stone. I ground the bevels ensuring they were flat and maintaining the original bevel angles of ~8.5 degrees per side (17 degree inclusive edge angle). I ground until I rolled a burr up on one side then ground the opposite side until the burr was removed and a new burr rolled up on the opposite side. Then I repeated on a hard Arkansas stone and finally a surgical black Arkansas stone.

After the black Arkansas the wire edge was minimal but perceptible with a fingernail. It was also consistent along the entire edge viewed through a jeweler's loupe. I then stropped with Flexcut gold compound until I could no longer feel a burr on either side with a fingernail. Finally, I stropped with Green chromium compound.

So, I'm not new to sharpening. And this knife is sharp. Really sharp. One stroke and your arm is bald as a baby's butt sharp. I'm not harping on this to toot my own horn but to avoid the inevitable "you just don't understand what sharp really is" comments. Not that such comments have no merit in this case. Just want to make it clear that I really do know what truly sharp means and that this knife is truly sharp. And viewed with my loupe (24X magnification IIRC) it is truly sharp.

And it cuts wonderfully. As good, if not better, than when it was brand new. I have some other Flexcut single knives and the sharpness of the blade I worked up is actually superior to the factory edge on the others. Now I am just tooting my own horn ;-)

"So what's the problem Kenny? You write that big long post to tell us you sharpened a knife and it's sharp? Duh." No, that was just the background. I hesitated to include so much detail but, I find that so often more experienced folks can point out my problem in details I thought were of no consequence….

Problem is, I have to strop way more often than I did before. I have been playing around with some Basswood since re-shaping the bevels on that blade and while it starts out cutting like a dream, it doesn't take long (maybe only 5 minutes of whittling time) before I start to feel the resistance to my cuts increasing. Not only that but, I can feel a wire edge rolled over to one side or the other of the blade if I probe it with a thumbnail. 5 strokes on each side on the strop with green compound and the wire edge is gone. But it consistently comes back in a short time.

I probably wouldn't even notice this if it wasn't for the fact that this is supposed to be my "go-anywhere" carving knife. So I drop it in my pocket and pull it out while the wife is in Walmart or wherever. Obviously, I'm not going to carry a strop in my pocket at all times. I've also paid particular attention and the edge on the larger blade on the same knife which has roughly the same bevel angle lasts considerably longer. Like 4-5 times longer before it needs to be stropped. I also didn't need to strop as often with the smaller blade before I took it to my oil stones.

So, I'm wondering: Did I actually get this blade too sharp? It seems to me that provided the bevel angles are the same that continual refining of the edge shouldn't serve to weaken it. But when viewed under magnification, it is visually obvious that the edge I created is much "better" than the factory edge on the larger blade. However the larger blade performs very well in use and as I said, has a substantially more durable edge. So, should I go back to the hard Arkansas stone and re-grind the bevels?

Any guesses, suggestions or advice is much appreciated!

And as a reward for reading this far, I'll show you what I've been working on with this knife the past couple of days ;-)


----------



## Lazyman

I can't offer any advice but I just bought a Whittlin' jack and I actually read the instructions. It specifically says to only sharpen using a strop or you risk ruining the blade. I know that doesn't help any but I sort of scratched my head wondering just how long you could actually maintain an edge with just a strop. I guess we know the answer.


----------



## HokieKen

I actually think that as long as you don't damage the edge, you can probably maintain it forever with just a strop Nathan. However, can you continually strop it without rounding it over eventually? Don't know. Like I said, my strop was pretty thick and soft. My new one is a much thinner piece of leather on MDF backer so I'm hoping that with the more rigid strop that I won't round the edge over like I did before.

Maybe I'll reach out to Flexcut CS and see what they have to say. I'm sure I'm well out of warranty but maybe they'll have some suggestion. Especially in light of what you read… Congrats on the purchase. I think you'll like that knife. I know I do even with my current issue ;-)


----------



## DanKrager

HK, I did a similar thing with a chip carving knife. It was by far the shallowest angle cutting edge I had, and the new edge cut like a dream, even in hard wood where it held up well. But tight curves were a problem. Then I read that eliminating the flat "micro" bevel by blending it into the long taper of the blade worked even better. Well, on the first cut the edge folded like tinfoil. What I failed to observe in the "suggestion" was that a tiny round at the cutting edge be formed, equivalent to a tiny micro bevel, but not flat. Something like an axe. That gives the ultra thin leading edge a bit more metal beef and durability without affecting sharpness. That tiny curve (barely visible under 10x magnification) gave needed support and allowed tight radius curves to be cut easily and freely. All the cutting action is in the first 0.001" of the edge, the rest is "rubbing" action. A flat bevel leaves the leading edge unsupported in a curve while the tiny convex bevel moves the supporting rub much closer to the bleeding edge. The thickness of the blade at the back of the bevel can be much thinner this way.

It is crucial to realize that is a very high maintenance area. Like painting a house, if you paint before your need it, it never needs painting. Hone on a hard surface with very fine abrasive before you feel the need and consistency will follow you home.

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

Man I love this site! ) Thanks a ton Dan. That makes absolute sense and describes exactly the same issue I'm having with the edge folding after a very short time.

Now, how in the hell am I supposed to create that tiny radius? :-/


----------



## Phil32

Why don't we make the bevel 1 or 2 degrees? Because every cutting edge is a compromise between sharpness and durability. The manufacturer gives recommendations as to the best bevel angle, but you have to find what works for the tools and wood you're using.


----------



## DanKrager

HK, my technique is to sharpen by laying the entire side of the chip knife flat on the stone (actually fine diamond) to keep the original thin profile clear to the edge. Then I take one, MAYBE two strokes backwards lifting the back edge of the blade off the stone an extra 5° or so as I stroke away from the edge. Then a couple strokes each side on a hard surface charged with micro chromium (green stick) starting flat and lifting the back to the 5° at the end of the stroke. In theory, this leaves a 10° cutting edge with convex bevels close to the bleeding edge. Under magnification it seems to come very close to theory, and lets chip carving be fun.

When I read many years ago that axes should be sharpened like this, I switched and found the edge to be just as sharp and much more durable on the axe. As I was writing this it occurred to me that it's similar to the hand plane when you move the chip breaker closer to the bleeding edge for finer cuts.

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Dan! I'll give each side a few back strokes on my black arkansas to make a tiny micro bevel and then strop the sharp corner off and see if I notice any difference.

I assume that when you strop to maintain the edge, you just do so with the entire bevel flat to the surface?


----------



## DanKrager

The object of the game in my shop is to sharpen with the very thin blade flat on the stone until the edge is sharp or very nearly so. Then a rocking back stroke to establish the CONVEX bevel, not a flat one. Then the same slight rocking (5° on each side) when honing on a hard surface, not a leather or other soft surface. The soft surfaces put too much round on the edge effectively dulling it again. On larger cutting edges with a 30° primary bevel, a hard leather can work well enough. I have learned to prefer a hard honing surface for everything sharp. It's very easy to get too much taken off to form the very tiny convex "breaker", either by rocking too far or too many strokes. And if the scratch pattern is about 45° to the edge so much the better. It has given a whole new meaning to sharp here.

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

Alright Dan, let's give it a go! First I coated the bevels with layout dye. And I charged a piece of MDF with green compound.









Starting with the bevel full flat on the strop, I drew it back while raising the back of the blade about 5 degrees at the same time. 2 strokes on this side:









Then 2 on this side:









This doesn't feel right! I'm intentionally rounding over an edge that I worked REALLY hard to get to really close to a zero-radius intersection :-( But, it still looks good under my loupe, it slices paper cleanly with extreme ease and a quick trip across my forearm says it's still a sharp edge ;-)









I decided to forego the stone for now and just use the strop. I'll approach this in baby steps. I'll give it a test run and report back!

Thanks to all for your feedback and especially to you Dan for such a detailed explanation and reasoning accompanied by practical solutions!


----------



## Phil32

Slicing a sheet of paper or shaving hair from your arm doesn't tell you anything about the durability of the edge. When you use that feathery edge on a piece of wood, it breaks down quickly and you find yourself starting over.


----------



## Lazyman

I like the way that you used red layout dye so it will look normal when you cut yourself.


----------



## woodcox

Kenny bleeds chocolate milk.


----------



## DanKrager

I'm pointing out (again) that a thin edge is a high maintenance edge. No one should expect it to be as durable as a 30° cutting edge. The technique I'm describing has shown me that this makes a very thin edge more durable than a flat bevel. And better at tight curves.

Coloring the blade is a good idea for easy visual. LOL Lazyman! Good luck!

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

> Slicing a sheet of paper or shaving hair from your arm doesn t tell you anything about the durability of the edge. When you use that feathery edge on a piece of wood, it breaks down quickly and you find yourself starting over.
> 
> - Phil32


Agree completely Phil. But, I need both. Originally I had both. Which I then unintentionally traded for sharp but not durable. Now, I'm working towards re-introducing the durability by modifying the edge geometry per Dan's advice. I was just testing in those ways to ensure I hadn't inadvertently dubbed the cutting edge.



> Kenny bleeds chocolate milk.
> 
> - woodcox


Only if the grandkids have been around for a while. Otherwise it's beer ;-)

I use layout dye a LOT when I sharpen no matter what I'm sharpening or how I'm sharpening it. I need that visual to let me know that I'm grinding in the right places. Or, as is more often the case, that I'm not grinding in the right places ;-P


----------



## HokieKen

So a while back, I saw this picture of an Ironwood shark:









And for some reason ever since then, I just have to have an Ironwood shark. So, I started by whittling one out of Basswood. Well, I made 3 out of Basswood, but I didn't finish the first 2 so they don't count ;-)

I have roughed out a blank in Walnut to make one next. And I have obtained some Ironwood. I leave on Saturday for vacation for a week and I'm taking my carving stuff with. My first project will be a Walnut shark (just because I want to do something other than Basswood before jumping directly to Ironwood). Was thinking that then I would give it a go in Ironwood if all goes well with the Walnut.

Which brings me to my questions:

I know that Ironwood is bad news for lungs. I wear a respirator anytime I'm working with it and creating dust. But, are there any necessary precautions when carving it? I'm talking about just knives and possibly a gouge or V-tool for details. No sanding or power carving.
Is it practical to "whittle" Ironwood? I know people work it a lot with power carving tools and gouges/chisels with a mallet but what about just with knives? Am I begging for an exercise in frustration?

Appreciate any advice. I have very limited carving experience and very limited experience working with Ironwood in any capacity.


----------



## Brit

Ken - I've never carved Ironwood, but I have carved European beech a few times. The last time was a couple of months ago when I carved a spoon in my hotel room and I can tell you that no matter how sharp your knife is, the amount of force used to push the knife through the wood is far greater than carving basswood (what we call Lime wood). I'm lefthanded and after finishing the spoon, the thumb on my right hand was very sore behind the nail from pushing the back of the knife. The soreness lasted abount a week and a half.

The Janka scale measures the force required to embed a 0.444 inch ball bearing halfway into a sample of wood and for Eropean beech the force required is 6,700 N. The same test on Desert Ironwood requires a force of 14,500N.

What I take from that is that carving Ironwood with a knife is going to be nigh on impossible, but I wish you the best of luck if you attempt it.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Andy. I kinda thought the same but then I see all these great carvings and figure it's gotta be workable. A little further investigation suggests it's a power carving or mallet carving game. One detailed post I found said the carver roughed the piece out with power tools then finishes them with scraper-type tools. She described it as using a tiny hand plane without a sole.

I'm about to saw a piece anyway so I'll take a knife to it and see what I think my chances are…


----------



## HokieKen

Ha! Got that straight real quick…. No Ironwood traveling to the beach with me! Might as well whittle a shark out of Aluminum.

Guess I'll be taking my Dremel tool out to get my Ironwood shark ;-)


----------



## Brit

Wise man.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Might as well whittle a shark out of Aluminum.


Ooh, that sounds cool! Be sure to tell us where you post your aluminum whittling blogs, Kenny!


----------



## HokieKen

They'll be posted in the same place as my Ironwood whittling blogs Dave ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Little fun stuff for the kids so far at the beach this week.


















And, working on a bit more ambitious shark for myself. Walnut "standing in" for Ironwood. Even Walnut ain't a walk in the park after working with Basswood…


----------



## donwilwol

Anybody know anything about Mifer Carving tools?


----------



## Brit

I didn't Don, but I do now. Found this on Woodcentral.com:

"Hi -

They were a Spanish manufacturer that made good chisels, and plane blades. Steel is a chrome vanadium, hardened to Rc 59-61, and they usually had boxwood handles.

When they went bankrupt, the tooling was sold/moved to El Salvador, where a new company continue to make chisels, though not the same style.

I have a a lot of Mifer chisels, and would rate them as really good value. These were not really expensive chisels (cost less than Marples Blue Chip, I beleive) and they were well made.

When we carried them, we had had an arrangement with the factory - we paid an extra 10 cents or so per chisel to get them to "high grade" the boxwood handles for us…. others got the ones with the big knots, or cracks…

Cheers -

Rob"


----------



## Brit

BTW - That is Rob Lee who posted that.


----------



## donwilwol

Thanks Andy. My search didn't bring that up. The Vintage Tool Shoppe has a 12 piece set for $150 I was looking at. Still looking.


----------



## HokieKen

Hey fellas. Haven't done much carving of late but had a gloat and a question for you fellas.

First for my gloat. This isn't a "got a great deal" gloat or a "got a super great and rare tool" gloat. This is a "I have some of Charles Neil's carving tools" gloat 

As most know by now, Charles passed a few days before Christmas. I went to the estate sale since it's only about 100 miles away from here. I picked up several small things but these are relevant to this thread.









I have eyeballed this set for the affordability and because I have been impressed with all the Flexcut knives I've purchased. So when I saw this set at the sale, I didn't hesitate to grab them. I can't say for sure that these were actually Charles' users but I can say that I saw this set (or one just like it) on his bench in one of his Woodcraft videos and they have definitely been used and maintained.

Well, my gloat got a bit long-winded so I'll make another post for my question.


----------



## HokieKen

In another thread some time back, I saw several recommendations to use cereal box cardboard for a strop surface rather than leather. So I saved a Cheerios box (a brand specifically recommended) and glued it to a MDF backer.

I like the rigidity of it but, I am having a fit getting compound to stick to it and getting a consistent coating without a bunch of lumps. 









I am using flexcut gold compound and I've tried rubbing it on dry without good success. Then I heated the compound slightly and it seems to adhere pretty well when applied warm but it's still lumpy in spots and when using it, large spots of the compound seem to peel off in flakes.

Any suggestions?


----------



## Phil32

Your experience with Cheerios cardboard and Flexcut Gold is puzzling. It sounds like the compound is too dry. Since it can last forever it's hard to know how old it is, but it shouldn't need to be heated nor should it flake off. 
I prefer the green (chromium oxide) compound. It rubs onto the cardboard with little effort and doesn't lump. I bought the bar of compound about twenty years ago. At the rate I'm using it up it will last another 200 years.


----------



## MrWolfe

Maybe my compound is a cheap brand… Enkay. They work well but dried out a bit. I just stuck the end of the bar in some laquer thinner for a few second. That totally melted/liquified the outside part of the compound stick and I was able to apply it to some mdf disks I made for my worksharp. I think that might work on your cereal box cardboard. Might be worth a try.
Jon


----------



## ClaudeF

I agree with Phil on this - I use the green compound on cereal box cardboard. Never had a problem with it flaking or lumping. It's an 8 oz bar, and I also have around 200 years or so left. I also use Flexcut Gold on the little Flexcut strop used for the gouges https://www.flexcut.com/home/product/pw12-flexcut-slipstrop It also applies easily with no lumps or other problems.

Claude


----------



## Dark_Lightning

I have three sticks of the Flexcut gold- one came with the standard stropping kit, and one each came with the stropping blocks included with the left hand and right hand scorp sets. Don't tell anyone that I strop my Pfeil palm chisels on them. >.>


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks for the feedback all. I have the Slipstrop too and the gold compound works well for me on it and works fine on leather too. For some reason I just can't get it to adhere to the cardboard well. I do have another stick that I forgot about so I'll see if there's some difference between the two. If not, I'll try a little lacquer thinner. If none of that works, I'll use the green compound. It just simplifies things to keep the gold in my carving kit but carrying another block of compound around ain't the end of the world ;-)


----------



## Picklehead

I know that they say to put some oil on MDF grinder/sharpening wheels before putting the first compound on them, maybe the same will work for cardboard, which is pretty much just thin MDF.


----------



## Lazyman

Seems like applying a liquid directly to the cardboard might cause it to swell a little but since it was cheap, you've got nothing to lose.


----------



## Phil32

It may not have been said before, but we're using the rough (unprinted) side of the cereal box cardboard.


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## HokieKen

I assumed so Phil  But good point, I don't recall anyone specifically saying so.

I thought about a little oil. I add a little mineral oil every now and then to my leather strop just to keep it soft and it creates a nice slurry with the compound that's embedded. I would think that might make the cardboard too soft but, like Nathan says, I'll be out exactly $0 if it doesn't work out.


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## Picklehead

Maybe just a little on a rag, rubbed lightly on the surface?


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## donwilwol

I know some who use the paper grocery bags as well.


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## chrisstef

Id go with frosted flakes box instead. I heard count chocula was the best but its been out of stock for a bit.


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## HokieKen

Good call Stef. They are grrrrrrreat!


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## HokieKen

Was working on a spoon and just got fed up with how much force the Mora hook knife required to hack out ugly chips. So, off to the grinder!

You can see in the before picture that there is basically 3 bevels on this blade:









So I ran my belt grinder at slow speed and ground on the slack belt section to try to get it to a single bevel with a slightly convex shape for strength.









I ended up with a slight hollow in the curve.









But it works MUCH better. I also rounded off the sharp corners on the back edge and worked the inside of the blade with some wet/dry paper on a dowel and then stropped the edge on both sides.









A few quick swipes in Pecan were effective and required much less effort. 









Now that it's cutting well, I'll polish the rest of the blade up some so it will slice more cleanly and I'm considering grinding the sharp tip off the thing. It's not really useful, it pokes me constantly and it makes honing the inside of the blade a PITA. So if you know of a reason I shouldn't grind it back a bit and round it off, please tell me now


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## Brit

Grind that sucker off. I never could see the point of it.


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## HokieKen

See the point of it… I see what you did there ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Careful how you hold a hook knife on your belt grinder or your $20 knife will shred your $10 belt. Grrrrrrr.


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## HokieKen

Oh what a difference a functional blade makes…


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## HokieKen

I finally got around to sanding and oiling that spoon^. I looked back to see when I started it… 6/11/19. So it only takes me a little over 8 months per spoon ;-p I gave it to a girl I work with who spotted the downed wood for me as a thanks.


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## DavePolaschek

Just have to retire, then you'll be able to take a full year per spoon, Kenny!


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## Brit

Picked up a nice user made Dummy Mallet on ebay the other day. The handle is made out of a nice piece of Yew. It weighs about 460grams (just over 16 ounzes). Feels great in the hand.


----------



## John Smith_inFL

Andy - I saw a brass head mallet being used on a boat building forum
and just fell in love with the style !!
I did a little research on how make them and made some for myself.
most people say they are too pretty to use. but, I love mine. Thanks for sharing yours !

here are a few I have made on my old Harbor Freight lathe.










.


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## Brit

Wow John, that's a wonderful collection. I agree they do have a certain appeal. The last thing I need is another addiction though )


----------



## Brit

Sitting here trying to visualize the type of bowl I'm going to carve from this lump of Sycamore (300mm x 300mm x 100mm). Maybe I'll sleep on it.


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## PCDub

> Sitting here trying to visualize the type of bowl I m going to carve from this lump of Sycamore (300mm x 300mm x 100mm). Maybe I ll sleep on it.
> 
> - Brit


Might be a little uncomfortable, but everyone finds inspiration in different ways ;-)


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## HokieKen

Goodun PCDub ))


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## HokieKen

Funny this thread found some life today. I finished my first carving that wasn't Basswood this afternoon. A lil hammerhead in Bradford Pear.


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## Brit

PCDub - Thanks for the laugh. I didn't think that one through did I?

Kenny - That great. You certainly got the shape and feature right.


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## Lazyman

How tuff was the PB to carve Kenny?


----------



## HokieKen

It was really pleasant Nathan. Had to be a little more aware of grain direction than with Basswood to avoid tearing chunks out but otherwise it really wasn't much harder to deal with. It was green though so I'm sure that had a lot to do with it's good attitude.


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## HokieKen

How is Sycamore to carve Andy? I've never worked with it but it is available locally


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## Brit

I'll let you know Kenny. First time for me.


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## Dark_Lightning

A bit off topic, but that cool carving of the hammerhead shark reminded me of this picture. I don't know where the pic was taken, though. It's made of hammer heads.


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## DavePolaschek

The square I just made has some simple surface carving. Nothing fancy, but I used a straight gouge to cut the V lines on the square. It's how you're supposed to carve letters, and I have a pending order for a sign for our house, so not only did I get to procrastinate, I got to practice my carving skills.










Nice shark, Kenny!

John, I don't think you have enough mallets there.

Andy, carve it into a pillow before you sleep on it?

Did you hear about corduroy pillows? They're making headlines!


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## donwilwol

Well done.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> The square I just made has some simple surface carving. Nothing fancy, but I used a straight gouge to cut the V lines on the square. It's how you're supposed to carve letters, and I have a pending order for a sign for our house, so not only did I get to procrastinate, I got to practice my carving skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice shark, Kenny!
> 
> John, I don't think you have enough mallets there.
> 
> Andy, carve it into a pillow before you sleep on it?
> 
> Did you hear about corduroy pillows? They're making headlines!
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Harr! Beats wrinkles, I guess.


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## HokieKen

Finished up another Pear critter.


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## donwilwol

That's a pretty nice turtle. Going with an oceanic theme?


----------



## Lazyman

He's going to whittle an aquarium next.


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## HokieKen

Not on purpose Don  Just the requests I've gotten lately. I have to say that the turtle was a fun one though. My first time putting detail like that in and using a small vee tool. I have some ideas to do a few more of those and have fun with some detailing. I'm pretty much over sharks for a while though ;-)

To continue practicing and learning how to add some detail, I've decided this guy is my next "lunch break project" 









I'm enjoying working with the Bradford Pear so I'll use it for this one too. We'll see how this one works out.

Anyone got recommendations for a good, small vee tool for etching in lines? I have a flexcut palm tool set that works fairly well but it's a little too flexible and the grip's a little too awkward.


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Anyone got recommendations for a good, small vee tool for etching in lines? I have a flexcut palm tool set that works fairly well but it's a little too flexible and the grip's a little too awkward.


You looking for a palm-tool? If not, I like the Iles carving tools I've bought, but they're bigger than palm-tools.


----------



## Brit

Kenny:

Dockyard Tools - http://www.dockyardtoolsusa.com/products.html
or
Peter Benson carving tools made by Ashley Iles - https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TXQQ

I have all the Peter Benson tools and they work well, but I do know that Dockyard Tools also have a great reputation.


----------



## HokieKen

> Anyone got recommendations for a good, small vee tool for etching in lines? I have a flexcut palm tool set that works fairly well but it's a little too flexible and the grip's a little too awkward.
> 
> You looking for a palm-tool? If not, I like the Iles carving tools I've bought, but they're bigger than palm-tools.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


No, I'm not looking for palm tools Dave. I don't particularly like the grip, especially when I'm holding the project by hand instead of in a vise. Which is basically always  I'd probably like to go a little less expensive than Iles until I am sure what I like as far as the angle of the vee and whether it's a swept/bent tool or a straight one.

Speaking of which, I'm thinking a straight tool with a 45 degree vee. Any opinions on what's best for scribing lines/letters/curves?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Straight with a 45 degree V is good.

I've been working on lettercarving lately, and using a straight gouge to cut the two sides of the V is the approved way for making straight lines. That's how I did the numbers on my dovetail marking gauge.










But if you go down that path, you'll need a whole bunch more tools, and I know that may not appeal to the cheap bastard in you. ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Actually a whole bunch more tools appeals to me immensely! Paying for them on the other hand… ;-)

If I decide to do letters to any extent, I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. For now, I just want something to do stuff like the lines in the turtle up there and such.

Those dockyard tools are SMALL Andy! They're in the right price range though  3mm seems smaller than what I think I want but I don't really know, it may be just right. Why don't these retailers just loan me a bunch of tools to try and let me pay for the one I want and send the rest back? ;-) I was thinking around 1/4" (6mm) would be a good general purpose size but again, I just really don't know.


----------



## Brit

How wide are the grooves on the turtles back? I think you might be better with what is known as a veiner.

A good general purpose V-Tool is 3/8" 60 degrees. That is what I use and I know Chris Pye does too. Great for lining in when relief carving. Nothing wrong with going with a 1/4", but if I was only allowed one, I'd go 3/8". What you have to consider is how you want the shadows to look. V-Tools create two straight sides when they cut a channel, whereas gouges from sweep numbers 3 to 8 create an arc of a circle, 3 being the shallowest and 8 being the deepest. Sweeps 3 to 8 will create a circle in wood if you stab them in and slide the cutting edge around the arc you've created, stabbing in again until you arrive back at your starting point. Sweep 9 is known as a U-shaped gouge and is not an arc of a circle as it has parallel sides.

Gouges will create less shadow the lower the sweep number, but all will create more shadow the deeper you make your cut.

There are also tools called veiners which are useful for making tiny lines in animal fur or feathers.

So you have to decide how wide you want the lines to be (that would be the width of the tool) and how deep you want to go (that would be the sweep of the tool if it is a gouge) Same goes for V-Tools really, except it is width, angle and depth of cut.


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## Lazyman

I have a set of Mikisyo Power Grip Carving Tools (mine is a 5 piece set with a case not this 7 piece set) that my SIL gave me almost 30 years ago but didn't really use them much until about a year ago when I started to whittle a little. It has a small V tool as well as a couple of other small chisels that are good for fine detail and they are small enough to be used one handed. They came and still are razor sharp, though 30 years later, YMMV. Both Rocker and Woodcraft carry them but they are more expensive there than Amazon.

Of course you can always just cut at 45° down each side of the cut to make a V with a whittling knife.


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## HokieKen

The lines in the turtle may be 1/16" wide at the most Andy. And I actually think it was a veiner I used for those now that I googled what a veiner is. I'll have to double check when I get a chance. I think a V tool is what I want but maybe a veiner is actually better for cutting in fine details?

For instance, on the Groot carving I'm about to undertake, what would you recommend for making all of the relief cuts to make it look like he's made of bark and vines? Would a v tool or a veiner be more appropriate? And thank you for the detailed explanation of the different shapes for relief cuts!

Nathan - I've seen those Power Grip tools several times when looking at carving tools and the price is always tempting. I'm to a point now though where I've amassed enough tools that I have what I want most of the time and I only use about 25% of the tools that I have. So I'm trying to avoid buying sets of tools, or any tools for that matter, unless I've identified a specific need for it. Like for small details 

*Edit to add*: It was a veiner I used on the turtle. A 1/16" #11 sweep.


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## Brit

How tall will the Groot carving be Kenny?


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## HokieKen

4 inches-ish Andy.


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## Brit

I would do it with what you've got Kenny. If what you've got is about 1/16", that would probably work.


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## HokieKen

Sizewise, I think you're right Andy. I just don't like the feel of that tool. It's this one:









The handle is awkward. If it were just that, I'd re-handle it and roll on. But the bigger issue is that it's just too damn flexible. It's just downright frustrating to try to get a consistent cut with it because I can't hold the angle of incidence constant because the shank is constantly flexing.

I'm thinking maybe I'll pick up the 1.5mm U-gouge from Dockyard. It's about the same size and I'm assuming a U-gouge is the same thing as a veiner? But their's is forged from a round bar and the handle looks much more usable to me. They're very affordable too  The other option I'm pondering is their 2mm V Tool. I would stick with the veiner shape but honestly, I think a V tool would be much easier to keep sharp.


----------



## HokieKen

OR…

You know you have too many tools when you have the tool you're shopping for :-/









This 3/16" V tool from Millers Falls seems to work quite well now that I've honed it and made some test cuts. And it's forged from a solid bar and has a decent handle


----------



## DavePolaschek

So my favorite carving tool of the day is the Gramercy spoon bits. Used a 1" and 5/8" to hog out the bulk of the bowl in this hunk of (seasoned, rock hard) apple that's hoping to become a ladle. Can't think of any other tool that would've given a complete beginner so much progress with minimal danger of cutting all the way through.










Still a lot of work left to be done, but I made more progress in a half hour with the spoon bits than I did in a month with knives.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

It's all about the right tool. One can spend 2 hours with a box end wrench making 1/12 of a turn at a time on the bell housing bolts to remove a transmission, or break down and buy that 24" long extension for your ratchet, with a universal joint socket on the end. If you're not making money on the project, slow is just fine. But if you want to make a living at it, fast is where it's at. I got out of the Navy in '76 and still have that 24" long Snap-On extension. It cost me $24 in '76, and it's paid for itself so many times over that it isn't funny.

HokieKen, I'm digging that workbench. It looks like a really tough essobee!


----------



## HokieKen

She takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin' that's for sure Steven  I'm far from gentle with her.

Just finished up my new carving storage box


----------



## Lazyman

Does (will) it have dividers Kenny?


----------



## HokieKen

I think I'm actually going to opt for Kaizan foam Nathan. It's just so easy and clean and lets you really maximize the space available.


----------



## Brit

Great job on the box Kenny. What is it sitting on? A trampoline? Were you bouncing for joy when you finished it?


----------



## HokieKen

Ha! That's the bed cover on my pickup. And I wasn't bouncing on it. My wife won't let me.


----------



## Brit

Oh I see. You don't get many pickups this side of the pond. They wouldn't fit in any parking spaces.


----------



## HokieKen

How do you haul wood? And fat girls?


----------



## DavePolaschek

They use vans, Kenny, which mean you can also hide the fat girls, rather than having to wear a fake mustache and sunglasses.


----------



## HokieKen

Why would you hide em?!


----------



## DavePolaschek

Those brits are more reserved, I think.


----------



## Brit

LOL. We're all about that bass.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm considering this Chris Pye book to help get a better foundational understanding of carving tools and techniques. Any ayes, nays or alternate recommendations?


----------



## Lazyman

I don't have any advice about The Chris Pye book but if you have not watched Mary May's free carving introduction videos on her website, I highly recommend them. It was enough to get me started and even enough to be able to take an image, convert/transfer it to a piece of basswood and get a decent carving. It's easy to follow along with her video, pause to try what she demonstrated and basically reproduce what she is doing.

EDIT: Here is a link and Here.


----------



## donwilwol

> I don t have any advice about The Chris Pye book but if you have not watched Mary May s free carving introduction videos on her website, I highly recommend them. It was enough to get me started and even enough to be able to take an image, convert/transfer it to a piece of basswood and get a decent carving. It s easy to follow along with her video, pause to try what she demonstrated and basically reproduce what she is doing.
> 
> - Lazyman


I agree.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks guys. I have looked at some of Mary's videos. I would prefer a book because I would like it available offline. It also seemed from the book preview that the projects in Chris' book are more along the lines of my interests. But I'm specifically wanting a book. I prefer an ebook but it's not a deal breaker if it's print.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I've got the Pye book on Lettercarving, and am working through it. It's exactly what I needed. Simple lessons, with lots of exhortations to practice, and tips with how to troubleshoot the most common mistakes people make along the way.

I think he's a great teacher for engineers.

If you're looking for a cheaper copy, isbn.nu does a search across multiple bookstores. Just isbn.nu followed by the 13-digit isbn and it'll find you the cheapest one for sale.


----------



## Brit

Kenny - IMO Chris is an excellent teacher. I've been a member of his https://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/ site for a few years now and he tells you exactly what you need to know without any waffle. As an alternative to the book, you could join his site and pay a monthly subscription for as long as you need, then stop. In one month you can watch a lot of videos. He goes through every type of carving tool there is and how to sharpen and use them. There are also loads of great projects on there covering ornamental carving, relief carving, letter carving, carving in the round. Not trying to put you off buying one of his books, but his site could be an alternative.

Chris's books are very comprehensive. He recently sent me his Lettercaving book as a gift, so if the others are like that, you certainly get your money's worth.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks for the feedback. Like I said, I want something available offline so I think I'll go with that ebook. I've heard lots of good things about Pye's methods and from the preview I liked that it looks to cover a broad range of tools and techniques. I also liked the look of the example projects. I just hope it's laid out such that I can work through it without buying a bunch of tools I may not otherwise need…


----------



## Brit

Chris obviously has a large selection of tools Kenny and will therefore suggest the best tools for each project. However as with most things in woodworking, there are other methods and tools that will get the job done. I recently completed a carving that I could not get all of the recommended tools for because I prefer Ashley Iles carving tools and they've shut their factory due to the virus. You can only buy what they have in stock at the moment. I still managed to get the job done though.


----------



## HokieKen

I'll muddle through I'm sure Andy ;-) I'm really just interested in building a better foundation on the basic techniques so even if I can't complete all the projects, practice makes… mediocrity at least I guess.

While organizing some tools in my new storage solution:









I found I had two complete vintage Millers Falls 106 carving sets.









I'll offer this one up on Ebay I suppose. But thought I'd see if anyone here might be interested in buying it. Or even better, trading some tools for it  If you are, let me know! I'll wait a few days then put it up for auction.


----------



## Brit

For the first three years of being a member, I just watched the videos Kenny. Didn't do any carving. LOL.


----------



## Phil32

This may seem simplistic but woodcarving requires actually putting tool to wood. It is not the purchase of gouges, knives, or power carving machines. It is not watching videos of other woodcarvers. It is not endless experiments with sharpening techniques.

Woodcarving means taking an appropriate tool, a piece of wood, and an idea of what the wood can become. Then, do it!


----------



## HokieKen

I agree fully Phil. And I have done so. I also taught myself how to use a skew chisel on the lathe. It was a long, painful and largely unproductive venture. Then I watched a couple of Alan Batty videos and improved dramatically. I honestly don't naturally have an inclination to reading or watching videos. My "gut" is to grab stuff and start whacking at other stuff and eventually I'll figure it out ;-) I've whacked enough basswood over the past couple of years to know I want to improve though and that I've reached a point where practicing what I've taught myself is only going to help me learn what I already know ;-)

I grabbed the Chris Pye book this morning and read the first bit on my lunch break. So far I'm pleased with his processes and his straightforward and practical presentation. I don't even mind that he plugs his other books and videos constantly, a fella's gotta eat! ;-)


> For the first three years of being a member, I just watched the videos Kenny. Didn t do any carving. LOL.
> 
> - Brit


That would drive me bonkers Andy. It reminds me of my grandkids. One wants to watch streaming video of other people playing a video game *ON THE SAME TV HE COULD BE PLAYING THE SAME VIDEO GAME ON INSTEAD* and the other wants to watch kids outside playing on YouTube rather than going outside and playing. Of course I assume Chris Pye has that British accent that makes everything soothing and interesting so I can understand that better. I still turn on your treatise on saw sharpening when I need to find my center and meditate. Or to turn my wife on ;-)


----------



## Brit

Does she want a signed Photograph Ken?


----------



## HokieKen

Oh I don't let her see the video Andy, just hear it. She thinks the accent's sexy ;-) I'm afraid if she saw you AND heard you she'd leave me for sure!

For our honeymoon we took a cruise to Alaska. We got to know an older couple from somewhere in the English countryside during the trip. To this day anytime I try to tell anyone what a beautiful place Alaska is and how much I enjoyed that trip, it inevitably turns into her talking about how sweet that couple was and how she wishes she could call vacation "holiday" and say "ring you up for chat" instead of I'll call you and pull it off without a british accent  I've tried to do the accent and asked her if I could pass for a local if I were travelling to England. She said "Maybe. If you were travelling to a turkey shoot or a tractor pull over there." I guess you just can't cover up *********************************** with class!


----------



## Brit

> Oh I don t let her see the video Andy, just hear it. She thinks the accent s sexy ;-) I m afraid if she saw you AND heard you she d leave me for sure!
> 
> - HokieKen


Yeah I get that a lot Kenny LOL.


----------



## donwilwol

Marrying up isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trying to not be a *********************************** can be exhausting. Shaving, bathing regularly, not shooting the neighbor's dog, mowing the lawn! Really!


----------



## HokieKen

Amen Don! And instead of "church clothes" and "clothes" you have to have clothes for everything! It's exhausting.


----------



## donwilwol

And like it's my fault I can't find the time to get the brake parts to the truck on blocks in the yard! It's only been there a couple years now. What's the friggin rush. Oh yea, I'm supposed to get a job. Like I'm some essential worker or something!


----------



## Lazyman

The secret is to slowly lower expectations so that when you retire there are no expectations at all. Clothes optional.


----------



## DanKrager

If you want to lower expectations, tuck one pantleg into your sock.

DanK


----------



## Brit

Yeah that would do it Dan.

I'm proud of the fact that I have reached the state whereby my wife no longer asks me what I've been buying now when a parcel arrives with my name on it. She just says "There's a parcel there for you" and I take it down the workshop, unpack it and hide the tools amongst the thousands of other tools I have.

Result!


----------



## HokieKen

If you REALLY want to lower expectations, wear crocs with the socks you tuck your pant leg into Dan ;-)

My wife is very similar Andy. She knows if she asks me "what is that tool for" that I'm gonna tell her so she rarely asks anymore ;-) She doesn't hesitate to ask about the PayPal charges associated with the packages though…. I've never received a parcel. We only get packages here :-(


----------



## HokieKen

> The secret is to slowly lower expectations so that when you retire there are no expectations at all. Clothes optional.
> 
> - Lazyman


She married me Nathan. I figure the bar is probably about as low as it needs to go :-/


----------



## Lazyman

Oh you poor fool. She been try to fix you ever since. The key is getting her to stop trying.


----------



## HokieKen

Well if she stops trying to fix me it either means one of us is dead or she ran off with the British saw sharpening fella.


----------



## Brit

LOL. Got a picture Ken?


----------



## donwilwol

> LOL. Got a picture Ken?
> 
> - Brit


I literally laughed out loud!


----------



## HokieKen

Sure Andy!


----------



## Lazyman

What did you do? Cut off your shirt tail to make a mask?


----------



## HokieKen

Of course not Nathan. I gave my mommy and old shirt and she made a mask for me ;-) Mom has since iterated her mask design to be more comfortable. And she made me a couple different colors for Mother's Day )


----------



## Brit

How do you find wearing a mask all day Kenny?


----------



## Lazyman

Now that is a mother's day tradition I can get behind. Mom giving ME gifts.


----------



## HokieKen

It's not bad Andy. I can close my office door and take it off if it aggravates me. The ones my mom made aren't uncomfortable at all. The paper disposable jobs make me itch though.


----------



## HokieKen

Well that damn Pye fella is already spending my money. Just bought a Pfeil 3/8" double bevel skewed chisel and a Pfeil 1/4" #7 gouge. Based on what I already have and the recommended tool list at the beginning of the book, I should be able to work through it pretty easily without buying anything else. They were used and I got them both with shipping for less than the cost of one of them new so it could be worse ;-)


----------



## HokieKen

Anybody know anything about Schaff Tools? They only do carving tools and the prices sure are attractive and they have great reviews on Amazon. If they sold single tools, I'd have already ordered a couple to test. But they only sell in sets so it costs ~$100 to try em out :-( Still, if they were good tools and I got 4 tools out of the set that I use, it would still be cost effective.


----------



## Brit

Personally I've never heard of them Kenny, but I did find this. Haven't watched it.

https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/woodcarving-tools-technology-sharpening/1150817-review-of-schaaf-carving-tools


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Andy! I'll give it a watch later when I can turn my sound on. I had a read through that thread too. Seems most people are like me and would like to give them a shot but don't want to have to buy a whole set of tools to do so…


----------



## Phil32

If I were looking for carving tools, given the 70+ years I've been carving, I'd be interested in the Schaaf 4-pc Fishtail Set. For relief carving the fishtails are the most versatile gouges. The Schaaf set is less than two of the fishtail gouges I presently use (Pfeil) IMO


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, they kind of hit that sweet spot of being cheap enough to entice but not so cheap as to be dismissed as obvious junk. I am still going to pursue learning with Pfeil/Ashley Iles that I have ordered so that I'll have a better basis for comparison though.


----------



## Brit

I forgot to post this here in case anyone wants to take a look.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> If I were looking for carving tools, given the 70+ years I ve been carving, I d be interested in the Schaaf 4-pc Fishtail Set. For relief carving the fishtails are the most versatile gouges. The Schaaf set is less than two of the fishtail gouges I presently use (Pfeil) IMO
> 
> - Phil32


Oy. I can see where the fishtail shape would help me on the coat of arms I'm currently working on. I have no fishtail gouges. I'd have to hold a Schaaf chisel in my hand before I'd buy other than Pfeil. I'm not convinced by that guy's video. Thicker metal isn't everything, but the big gouges that I have look plenty thick to me. I bought a bunch of O1 tool steel to make some small drakes to get into some areas on this carving. I have enough to make some palm sized fish tail chisels, too. They will go in the big chest. I have limited room in the small one I just made. There is expansion space for a few chisels in it, if I need to take them to the carving club at the senior center. Whenever that opens back up. Looks like I need more than 3/16" and 1/4" rod. I'm making a list of metal that I need for a trip to the metal store, as I also have some metal projects that I want to make. At least they are open for bidness!


----------



## DavePolaschek

I finally finished carving my ladle today. Once I hogged out the bulk of the bowl using the Gramercy spoon bits, I carved the inside of the bowl with a stock Mora 164. Edge was straight from the factory, and not even honed, as I hadn't unpacked my sharpening kit when I started carving. Lots of slicing cuts with it to get through the dry apple wood.


----------



## Brit

Nice work Dave. Are you taking a break from your brace rack?

I spent all day today carving a bowl out of some spalted wood. It fought me all the way and it was starting to not be fun. I don't think I've ever worked with such unaccomodating wood.


----------



## DanKrager

I hear ya, Brit. I've got a cantankerous one on the carving bench now, too. The big adz still removes the wood faster than anything else I have, including the gouge driven by a pneumatic stone hammer. Immabouttogiveup.
Can only swing about 8 blows before I have to rest my hands.
DanK


----------



## DavePolaschek

> Nice work Dave. Are you taking a break from your brace rack?
> 
> I spent all day today carving a bowl out of some spalted wood. It fought me all the way and it was starting to not be fun. I don t think I ve ever worked with such unaccomodating wood.


Yeah, Andy. Sundays are for spending time on "other stuff." I did spend a few minutes in the shop, but most of it was with a couple knives sitting on the portale enjoying the day.

This apple had some spalting in it, plus some hard white deposits that I've seen in other fruitwood. The density variations gave me fits until I figured out how to do slicing cuts with all the various tools. Ditto for the figure in the handle. I had the spokeshave skewed about 80 degrees on the last few cuts smoothing the handle.


----------



## HokieKen

Has anyone used the Flexcut Scorps?

I do more whittling than carving so I'm almost always working on a piece that I hold in one hand and carve with the other. So now I'm trying to add some more detail to my pieces using gouges and v tools but it's hard to control traditional tools or even palm tools with one hand while holding the work in the other. So I'm wondering if maybe Scorps are the answer. I'm thinking about trying out the v tool scorp but as usual, I like to get good advice before I "unclench my wallet cheeks" as my wife says. I googled them looking for thoughts from actual carvers but didn't find much of anything.

Are there any other makers of these type tools? When I search for scorps everything I find other than the Flexcuts are the fully circular spoon-type knives.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

I have the left- and right hand scorps made by Flexcut. They are great on relief carvings when there is some depth but not much room to get a gouge into the details.

They look like these- https://www.woodcraft.com/products/flexcut-scorp-set

And much to my shock they are almost double what I paid a few years ago! Holy Moley!


----------



## HokieKen

Good to know Steven. I have a Flexcut spoon knife:









While I don't like it for spoons necessarily, it does work well for carving out hollow areas without needing two hands. So I basically use it like a really large version of one of those scorps. I like the idea of being able to use a small detail tool like that on the pull cut as well. I think I'll give the v tool a shot.

FYI, Woodcraft is high on the set you linked. I've seen the same set and it's generally around $70. The individual ones look to be around $25 each. So you can buy the individual blades cheaper than WC is selling the set for :-/


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## Dark_Lightning

I take back my previous comment. I went and looked at my spreadsheet that has all the prices for my carving tools, and I paid $100 per set for the scorps…from WC. Guess I should have shopped around.


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## HokieKen

Y'all know how long Pfeil tools are? About 1/2" longer than the storage box I just finished building for them.









There were some sailors blushing outside my shop last night. And no, I can't turn them the other direction, the boxes are square…


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## Lazyman

I was wondering what that rumble was I heard in the east. Diagonal it is then . Perhaps a sort of "magazine" that will stack them vertically on the diagonal that you could slide out when you want one?


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## HokieKen

We'll see Nathan. I'll figure something out. They could go in the bottom box but that makes them less accessible and was not my intention when I picked this design. I'll just have to get some hands on time with them and see if I like the pfeils enough to assume I'll buy more of them. I have a feeling I can whack 1/2" off the end of the handle and not notice that it's gone if that's the case.


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## Lazyman

I suppose you could cut the handles down so that they fit? If you shave off 1/4" and have to skew them slightly, that would be pretty easy to handle with the foam you are using to organize everything.


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## Karda

didn't you need an extra box


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## DanKrager

*HokieKen*, don't beat yourself up over this. Look at it this way. You were "planning ahead" for the palm gouges and measuring accessories you will inevitably have. Build a matching box and the value increases due to a "matched set".

And note that not all Pfeil gouges are created equal.

DanK


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## Karda

I did the same thing, kinda. I re handled one of my spoon knives with a longer handle and not untie the handle was mounted and oiled did I think to check and see if it would fit in the box. It does just barely


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## Dark_Lightning

Bummer. I think that Karda and Dan have the right idea. I'll bet that there is enough wood for you to cut them down. But if you buy a big one with the ferrule at the head (so it doesn't mushroom from repeated mallet strikes) you'll be back to square one.


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## HokieKen

Unfortunately, building a second box isn't ideal since this box is really 5 boxes…









They'll just go on a diagonal for the time being while I get a feel for what tools I need and like. Then I'll think a little more about modifying handles or moving longer tools to the bottom box which is really intended more for carving stock, sharpening stones, a hatchet, and maybe a small adze one day. Or maybe this is a sign that I need to repurpose that box for something else and build another one with different proportions


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Unfortunately, building a second box isn t ideal since this box is really 5 boxes…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They ll just go on a diagonal for the time being while I get a feel for what tools I need and like. Then I ll think a little more about modifying handles or moving longer tools to the bottom box which is really intended more for carving stock, sharpening stones, a hatchet, and maybe a small adze one day. Or maybe this is a sign that I need to repurpose that box for something else and build another one with different proportions
> 
> - HokieKen


HAH! I've had 6 tool chests for my carving tools. Come on, man up and make some more, lol! JK about the "man up". I really have had that many tool chests, though. They've evolved considerably over the last 5 years. It's a crying shame that the long tools don't fit in that beautiful cantilevered box, though. I feel your pain.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Kenny, you just need one of those slide-out expansion units like they put on RVs. You're an engineer, should be a piece of cake!


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## Brit

Just keep that wonderful box the way it is and chalk it up to experience. You'll find something else to put in it. This is the problem we all face when we try to make tool holders to go on the wall too. If we make them for the tools we have now, there won't be room for the tools we will inevitably buy tomorrow. So do you wait until you have all the chisels you'll ever need before hanging them on the wall, or do you leave room for the chisels you'll buy tomorrow, or do you just make the box for what you have now and build another box for future chisels.

I bet tool rools are looking pretty good right now.


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## Lazyman

Spammer flagged


----------



## HokieKen

Don't worry, I won't be modifying that box Andy ;-) I was pondering another idea before I built that may come to be in the future. I'll never be silly enough to assume that I have all of the tools (of any sort) that I'll ever buy but I will wait until I gather some more and see what types of carvings I'm likely to do much of in the future. For the whittling stuff I do now, the cantilevered box is perfect. Everything I need 90% of the time is in the top boxes but I can also carry all the other "stuff" I don't use as often and still only have the one box 

I have read the first few chapters of the Chris Pye book that I bought. I'm a little aggravated that the chapter on "Commisioning Your Carving Tools" is for the most part a lot of truncated information with "buy my other book or join my website if you really want to learn how to do this". I'm fine with him plugging other products in the book but I do feel like a book that I paid for should include information on sharpening the tools that he suggests you use throughout the "step-by-step beginners guide". But I digress…

I say all that to ask this: In the book he says there's a step-by-step guide called "Selecting and Sharpening your V Tool" on his website that may be freely downloaded for a contribution to charity. I could find no mention of it on his site. Any chance anyone has a copy of this or knows where it lives and can link to it?


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## HokieKen

Oh and no Andy, I hate tool rolls for some reason ;-) Never been a fan of them.


----------



## Brit

I'll have a look for that info tonight Kenny. I'm not a fan of tool rolls either, although they are better than just having your tools lying around on your bench. I'm using them at the moment, but I can't wait to get my chisels up on the wall. I think my chisel rack will be the first tool rack I build.


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## Brit

*Kenny* - As a member, you can watch a series of 8 videos on how to sharpen the V-Tool. There is a download for members only, but it is only a short crib sheet which doesn't really mean anything if you haven't watched the videos. I can't see any other downloads anywhere on the site about the V-tool. I even looked on Chris's own site, but couldn't find anything there either.

However, I did a Google search for '*Selecting and Sharpening your V-Tool by Chris Pye*' and found what you are looking for here. https://www.slideshare.net/YomiRodrig/selecting-andsharpeningyourvtool


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## HokieKen

Perfect! Thanks Andy ) That's a lot of stinking information on a single tool…


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## HokieKen

This arrived in the mail yesterday 









Wasn't real sure I wanted them but found a used set on ebay for about 1/2 off the new price. When they arrived, I'm about 90% sure they've never been used  I played around some and I think I'm gonna like 'em. Particularly the v-tool for slicing in details on whittlings. Damn things are kinda awkward to sharpen/strop though, especially the insides.

Finally read through Pye's tome on the v tool Andy, thanks for tracking that down! It's really not as much information as I thought, he's just really thorough on each step and goes through all the steps with a grinder and also with just bench stones. I haven't really had time to devote to going through his book much yet but I am attempting to round up a set of tools and get them in shape per his instructions so that when I do have time to set down and carve, I'll be ready


----------



## Brit

Congrats Kenny. I look forward to seeing what you're able to do with them.


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## Dark_Lightning

> This arrived in the mail yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn t real sure I wanted them but found a used set on ebay for about 1/2 off the new price. When they arrived, I m about 90% sure they ve never been used  I played around some and I think I m gonna like em. Particularly the v-tool for slicing in details on whittlings. Damn things are kinda awkward to sharpen/strop though, especially the insides.
> 
> Finally read through Pye s tome on the v tool Andy, thanks for tracking that down! It s really not as much information as I thought, he s just really thorough on each step and goes through all the steps with a grinder and also with just bench stones. I haven t really had time to devote to going through his book much yet but I am attempting to round up a set of tools and get them in shape per his instructions so that when I do have time to set down and carve, I ll be ready
> 
> - HokieKen


Enjoy 'em! I put that medical wrap tape (that I may have mentioned above but am too lazy to look) on mine. Once you find how handy they are, you'll be buying the left-hand set. I sure wish I had considered eBay, as I might have saved $100. As for sharpening and stropping, I bought a WorkSharp 2000 and use a chunk of cereal box cardboard. Works great. They aren't going to get dull that fast unless you are a prolific carver. I have yet to sharpen mine. #notaprolificcarver


----------



## DavePolaschek

I'm with Steven on the medical wrap tape, but I buy "VetWrap" because it used to be about half the price of the stuff for humans. Heck, I'm just another large mammal. But it's great for improving the grip of things short-term until you get a chance to put on better handles.

Have fun with your sharp bits, Kenny!


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## Brit

Got some new toys from Sweden today. A couple of dog leg gouges and a scorp (inshave).


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## HokieKen

Unique looking stuff Andy. I don't think I've ever seen gouges quite that dog-legged. Who's the maker?

And while I'm here… Anybody have experience with Lamp brand tools that Wood Carver's Supply sells? I see them quite a bit on Ebay and I let a 3 piece lot slide at a great price last night just because I wasn't sure of the quality. I tried to find some hands-on reviews but didn't find much.

I did snatch me a Two Cherries gouge though that I'm waiting on to arrive. I may not have the foggiest idea what I'm doing but at least my tool box will look like I do ;-)

Finally, any recommended online sources for Basswood? I'd like some 12×12-ish flats I can practice on without breaking the bank or getting crappy boards.


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## Brit

Hans Karlsson made them Kenny.


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## Lazyman

I have bought most of my basswood from my local Woodcraft so I don't have an online source for the basswood Kenny but I do know that you need to look for northern basswood and not the southern variety The northern carves much nicer. The southern stuff tends to be sort of stringy. If they don't specifically say it is from northern sources, I would probably assume it is not. The one piece I got that turned out to be the southern was really awful to carve.


----------



## Brit

BTW Kenny, Lamp tools are pretty decent.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Andy. There was a 3 piece lot that were all useful sizes that sold for $40 on ebay last night. I shoulda posed the question earlier.

I am familiar with Karlesson. One day I might know what I'm doing well enough to buy from him…

Nathan - I wonder if I have non-northern Basswood… It carves easily but I just can't seem to get a nice clean polished surface when I work with the grain like I do when I work cross-grain. I'll have to snag a piece from Woodcraft and compare. Thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## Lazyman

That sounds exactly like the problem I was having with the non-Northern BW I had. I actually bought it from a bargain bin at Woodcraft but it was not the normal stuff that mine always carries. It had a brand name stamped on it so looked it up and it was from Georgia IIRC. I know why it was so cheap. I think that the stuff they always carry comes from Michigan or Illinois? BTW, Woodcraft has a sale going on this weekend. Everything is 10 or 15% off (except their high dollar tools that are not on a MFG sponsored sale).


----------



## HokieKen

I'm on attempt number 3 to carve a claw and ball foot but with the ball being free and grasped in the fingers. I think I may be able to see this one through. It's an interesting challenge that teaching me to be more selective in how rapidly I remove material and in working on tight quarters.


----------



## donwilwol

It's taking shape Kenny


----------



## John Smith_inFL

the majority of my gouges are Lamp brand with a few Henry Taylors
and have been very satisfied with them for what I use them for.
for small tight carvings, very sharp "knives" work better than the gouges.
if you are getting grain tear out, your blade might be losing its edge.
your next attempt should nail it !! good work so far.
as a note: I would make the "feet" twice as thick as you have them now.
when I carved my eagle, I looked at hundreds of Bald Eagle Feet photos 
on Google to get the proportions correct. also the Carved Ball & Claw. 
trying to carve them without a reference can lead to frustrations.










.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks fellas! And thanks for the info on references John. I'm just kinda flying blind (which explains why it tool 3 attempts to get this far). I did get the ball done and get the fingers shaped mostly. I have to wait intil I get home to cut the block off and finish the top of the hand and wrist. All in all it's been a fun challenge though.

I'm on a long weekend getaway with the son and grandkids this weekend so I'm currently tasked with a batman and a (nother) unicorn. My dawdles will have to wait ;-)


----------



## Phil32

The ball & claw foot is a real challenge. The roundness of the ball and dimensions of the claw toes must be set well before any cuts to separate them:


----------



## HokieKen

I got a few Mifer tools at a great price so I tolled the dice. Seems like good steel. They need a little work but not a lot to be ready for me to use them poorly ;-)









The Ashley Iles tools I was anticipating getting for Father's Day were a no-show. My son couldn't find them in stock anywhere. Neither can I now :-( Maybe there will be some stock of them by my birthday in August…


----------



## Lazyman

> ( Maybe there will be some stock of them by my birthday in August…
> - HokieKen


Subtle hint.


----------



## Brit

*Kenny* - I believe Ashley Iles had to shut during the lockdown and they furloughed their employees. In the UK, the government agreed to pay 80% of employees wages to prevent mass redundancies from occurring if companies needed to shut down during lockdown. Ashley Iles were still selling what they had in stock through their online site, but as with many small manufacturers of woodworking tools, they are only ever making certain sweeps in certain sizes at any one time. They put those into stock and inform customers who have asked to be emailed when a certain sweep/size comes back into stock and then turn their attention to making other sweeps and sizes. I had to make do without a couple of fishtail gouges when I did my Three Hares carving. I think they are taking orders again now though, so I guess fresh stock should start to filter through to retailers again.


----------



## Brit

Actually I'd better get in quick before Kenny takes them all. Now where's my wallet?


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, I knew they shut down production. When I looked a while back TFWW had the 3/8 V-tool and 1/2" #3 sweep in stock so I told my son I would like either of those. I guess by the time he got around to ordering, they were gone though. Which worked out fine because instead, he bought me a rotary table for my milling machine that cost roughly 4X what those 2 gouges would have cost ;-)

I have some Pfeil, Two Cherries and Mifer tools now that should be sufficient for learning. I was hoping to have a couple of the Ashley Iles as well just so I get a better feel for what I want to buy going forward. Just at first glance, I really like the Two Cherries. We'll see how I feel after a few dances though.


----------



## HokieKen

Was a fun challenge.


----------



## Brit

Does the ball rotate Kenny?


----------



## HokieKen

Yep, the ball is free Andy. That was my main reason for giving this one a go. I was looking at some stuff on Mary May's site and she had this picture:









And said it was the only one she'd ever seen with the ball free of the claw. So I went a-googlin' and couldn't find any others. Figured it would be cool to be #2 ;-p


----------



## Brit

I might try that myself one day.


----------



## HokieKen

It's a fun knife-only challenge if you're so inclined Andy. I used a much wider variety of blades on this than I usually do. Was definitely a good learning project for me.


----------



## DanKrager

HK, those look like mighty fine casters! Expensive, and fragile, but fine.

When I saw you were working on it, I wondered if it would or could indeed be made to work as a caster. With stouter talons and a roller bearing above, it just might.

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

Oh my Dan! How about a lazy susan with a dozen or so claw and ball foot casters? I really love that idea! I can't do it. Doubt I'll ever be able to do it. But I'd probably buy it if I saw it!


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Oh my Dan! How about a lazy susan with a dozen or so claw and ball foot casters? I really love that idea! I can't do it. Doubt I'll ever be able to do it. But I'd probably buy it if I saw it!
> 
> - HokieKen


Hah! Mawnsters on the dining room table! That would be a good Halloween gag. Go ahead, you have time!


----------



## DanKrager

Well, my time has been otherwise used. Part of my streamlining process involves new tills for the hand tool stuff. Here is one…(sorry for the fuzzy picture. Didn't look bad on phone).


















The drawers are near full as planned. The "regular" carving tool drawers have two layers of partitioned shelves
one of which will be kept empty for project specific collections. We'll see how that works.

Yes, they are full extension soft self closing drawers with hand cut dovetails (not shown).

DanK


----------



## John Smith_inFL

Dan - how much trouble would it to take better photos ?
I would really like to see a clear photo of your setup.

.


----------



## DanKrager

It was tight quarters where I was transferring all the stuff. Maybe I can get better ones. Stay tuned.

DanK


----------



## HokieKen

That's a good looking till Dan. Nice work are on top too!


----------



## DanKrager

Do these show what you want to see?



















DanK


----------



## John Smith_inFL

ohhhhhh yeah !! thank you so much for taking the time for the photos.
I have this metal mechanics stand that will suit this project quite well.
now, only to find the time !!
,


----------



## Brit

Wow Dan! Wonderful job sir.


----------



## HokieKen

Well, next week is vacation. We have a cabin rented in the Smoky Mountains and I should get some good carving time  I have my Chris Pye book ready to go and I've spent the last couple evenings preparing.

Sunday, I finally finished putting foam inserts in my carving box.









And I went through the process to "comission" my V tool per Pye's instructions thanks to Andy finding those for me  I only have this 45 degree Mifer. It took some doing to set all the bevels because the thickness of the sides tapers and is ground at a bevel at the top. It also had the apex protruding and the sides leaned back about 25 degrees when I got it. So I ended up grinding about 1/2" off the thing just to get it squared up. I would much prefer to have the Ashley Iles V tool I have my cap set for but still can't find them in stock so I'll hobble through the lessons in the book with what I have for the time being…









I scanned through the book last night at all the lessons and prepared some stock. First I printed out all the patterns. Then I cut up a piece of Basswood for most of the patterns.









I'm really looking forward to lessons on low relief and high relief carvings using the same Koi pattern.









If I can make something that looks even close to that good, I'll be stoked 

That pattern requires a board that is 11" across the grain though and I didn't have any Basswood that was that big. He also specified a 1" thick board for the high relief carving and my only Basswood board is 3/4. But I recently stumbled into a heckuva deal on a truck load of air-dried wood and a portion of it was Mahogany. So, I resawed and planed a nice clear 8/4 board down and glued up a couple of panels to use for the Koi reliefs.









I'm most excited about a pierced relief carving using a modified pattern of that Koi though.









If I can pull that one off, my wife won't be able to stand my big head ;-)

Sorry for the long post… I just have carving on the brain. I keep thinking I'll start a blog series on carving just to keep notes for myself mostly. But it seems I just end up using this thread instead


----------



## HokieKen

Almost forgot… You know how they say Cherry darkens with UV exposure? I'm not sure I believe that ;-)


















I'm gonna have to remember to leave the box open when it's sitting in the shop sometimes…


----------



## Brit

Sounds like you're are gonna have a blast Kenny. That cherry UV exposure made me laugh.

I'm just waiting for the finish to dry on a hand carved tool handle for an external bevel Mocotaugan knife blade I got from Ben Orford recently. I should be able to post it in a couple of days time.


----------



## HokieKen

I'll look forward to seeing that Andy! That blade looks like a handy thing to have around. Had to google it to see what it is.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Leave the tool box open and closed to even it out, and it'll look like a reverse color picture of the marks in a grilled steak! Hmm. Now I want steak for dinner.


----------



## HokieKen

I always want a steak for dinner


----------



## Lazyman

Kenny, do you have florescent lights where you store your carving go-box? They can have a similar effect on cherry.


----------



## HokieKen

I do Nathan but the box would be exposed to natural light much more than the fluorescents at this time of year. I'm not often in the shop past dark in the summer and I prefer to work with just natural light as much as possible. I do have a single light over my workbench I turn on often but it's an LED.


----------



## HokieKen

So, I've learned that I don't have tge skills to effectively sharpen small gouges without some kind of guide or jig when they require significant grinding. I may have to wait until I get home to my Worksharp to get gouges that are really up to par I think. I have spent all my "carving" time trying to get all of the used tools I've bought commissioned. Not complaining though ;-)


----------



## Brit

I hear that Kenny. I took the decision to only buy new carving tools for that very reason. Even new tools can take quite a bit of time to commission.


----------



## Lazyman

Unless you are doing a significant reshaping, I would think that the Worksharp may be too fast? Have you watched Mary May's sharpening video that's part of her free series of introductory lessons? She's not showing any significant reshaping but the technique should be about the same on a coarse stone as it is on a fine one. It's not as easy for me as she makes it look but its obviously not rocket science.


----------



## Brit

Yeah you got to keep your elbows in and lock them and get some hip action going.


----------



## HokieKen

Now you sound like my wife Andy…

My issue is only on small gouges really. On the ones I have (uneven edges or missing corners along with very high angles of attack) I can hold the angle proper for a while but then I'll notice a gradual shift. Probably mostly boredom…

And no, the Worksharp is great for carving tools. I have some other gouges that I use a collar type jig with and it works a trick. I also basically completely reshaped a 5/8" V tool right before we left on this trip and not sure I could have gotten it done even remotely as well without the WS and a honing guide.

I definitely won't need the WS to maintain the edges but it's the bees knees for making them.


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## Dark_Lightning

I have a pile of micro and palm chisels. It's but a few minutes work to hone them. It takes a very light touch, with my large hands. The micro tools I will for certain be building a jig. Even the cereal box cardboard honing disc can make them a wreck in jig time.


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## donwilwol

Did he actually say "get some hip action going"?


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## HokieKen

He's British Don. It's much more cooth with the accent.


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## Brit

Yes he did say that. One must become a pendulum.


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## HokieKen

Grace was never my strong suit Andy. Or even one of my mid-level suits for that matter…


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## HokieKen

At least I'm carving now!


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## Brit

What made you want to carve a deformed horse Kenny? Just kidding!

Took delivery of 9 more chislies today.










Ashley Iles are still out of stock on some others that I want.


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## HokieKen

That's a self-portrait Andy.

I'm jealous of thise chisels! I'd kill to be able to get the V tool I want here in the states.


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## DavePolaschek

What are you after, Kenny? Tools For Working Wood has a lot of the Iles tools in stock.


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## HokieKen

Yeah, but it's the 3/8" V tool I really want and it's still out of stock. I may end up just going with a Pfeil. I would really like to try the Iles one as what would be a main user I think.


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## DavePolaschek

The 45 degree straight 3/8 is in stock.

Looks like the 60 is out of stock, though. I think I have an Iles 3/8 60 degree if I unpack the box that has my carving tools. I could mail it to you and you could replace it when they're back in stock if that would work.


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## HokieKen

I definitely want the 60 degree Dave. I have a 45 degree 5/8 Mifer I'm ising now. It works well for some things but I can see that a 60 degree would be preferrable for a lot of things.

And I appreciate the offer but after this week, carving time will go back to being very minimal so I'll just wait until they get fresh stock. If I change my mind, I'll yell at ya though ). Very generous of ya to look out!


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## DavePolaschek

Okie-doke. My carving time is going to be pretty minimal until the bookcases are done. There is a sign I'm supposed to hand carve: "HOME is where the fart is" so we can hang it next to our front door, but there's much less hurry on that than on the bookcases.

Holler if you need a buddy to hook you up.


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## HokieKen

I'll cross post this from the Workmates thread in case it's of interest to anyone here…



> I inherited this little guy a couple of years ago. Never seen another. Makes a great little travelling vise for carving. Tilts like a drafting table too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> - HokieKen


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## Brit

I forgot to cross post this here for anyone who is interested.


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## HokieKen

Well, I went ahead and ordered my V tool direct from Ashley Iles UK store. With shipping, it wasn't much more than ordering it stateside and since there's no stock here, I should get it faster too


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## Brit

I was just going to offer to buy one for you and send it on Kenny. Glad they had one. When you get it, I'll post some photos of how I commissioned mine by drawing the keel back a bit as Chris Pye suggests. It made a hell of difference.


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## HokieKen

Thanks Andy. I'll be glad to have any help I can get. I commissioned my 45 degree Mifer V tool per his instructions and it works pretty well. But the narrow angle and tapered walls on that tool make it hard to get it "just so". I can get good clean cuts with it but, it has more resistance on deep cuts than I think it should. I'm anxious to get the Ashley Iles with the wider angle and see how it compares.

They do have a warning on their site that "due to high demand some orders may be delayed". So I'm not holding my breath. But I figure it'll come faster ordering direct as long as it doesn't fall overboard somewhere in the Atlantic.


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## Brit

I really like the carver handles on the Iles tools. Never been a big fan of octagonal handles. People say they don't roll off the bench, but none of my tools have ever rolled off my bench so I'm calling that reason bull.


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## DavePolaschek

As long as we still have a postal service to deliver it by the time it makes it across the ocean…


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## HokieKen

I don't have any issues with tools rolling off the bench either Andy. Screws, yes. Tools, not really.

Don't even get me started on the USPS Dave…


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## HokieKen

For those who have done relief carvings, what do you recommend for leveling the background? The book I'm working through recommends a 3/4" #3 sweep. But I'm working on a sign that has a lot of background and I think something larger would save time and give better results. Just wondering if you guys have any specific recommendations. Once you get into larger sizes, the price jumps significantly so I don't really want to "just see if this works" in that price range. So what do you think is a practical "big" gouge? And I assume a #3 is best for final leveling but if you prefer a different sweep, I'd be interested in your perspective


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## Lazyman

CNC. 

How much area are we talking about?


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## HokieKen

I'm thinking about stuff like this Nathan.









That's a 9×11 board and all but the fish is getting lowered about 1/4". For this, it's "water" so getting the background very flat isn't so critical. But for a sign or something, I would want it to appear flat.


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## Phil32

When doing a large relief with a flat background, I prefer to overlay the carved part on a flat board. Otherwise, I like to effect of tool marks showing "this is carved with hand tools."


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## Lazyman

#3/4" #3 sounds about right to me for a lot of background removal but it may not be necessary to completely level the background. Depending upon the content, it may suffice to simply carve enough to leave tool marks. Even on your catfish, you can create the illusion of depth immediately around the the fish but on the rest of the background/water you can often get away with just carving enough to leave tool marks-at least in my limited experience anyway.


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## DanKrager

Sometimes you can enhance the carving with the background texture or create a special effect of emphasis… A large gouge is not easy to use because the power to drive it under control skyrockets geometrically. I agree that a #3 in the 15-18mm range would be a good maximum. For smoother flats, change the sweep to #1 to remove the crests left by the #3. If you want it glass flat, then a Stanley 71 is your friend, but you must consider how to support it. And it's not good for tight spots.










DanK


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## Dark_Lightning

I'm with Phil on the background texture. For me, the whole point of carving is to get that texture. When I want the background relatively smooth on something as big as the fish carving above, I would use a 50 mm #2. You'd need to get a smaller chisel to get into the inside corners, though. For that, I would use a #1 skew, very carefully. Depending on how much clearance you have, you can use a single bevel chisel. You'll have to use a lower angle of approach with a double bevel chisel.


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## HokieKen

Thanks for the feedback all! I have come around ro a 3/4" 3 sweep being big enough. I think I'll keep an eye out for a 1-1.5" flat chisel for times when I want it flatter.

I get leaving the textilure in the background depending on the subject. I generally don't leave tool marks just to make stuff look hand-tooled. If I use hand tools, I still aim for it to look like it was machined. Just a matter of preference.

Dan, I had considered using my router plane to flatten it. In this case, I don't mind it havng some texture but in the future, I'll plan the project to use the router if I want that smooth a background.

Phil, I appreciate the idea of gluing the carving to a flat background board. That would have probably worked for my current project but for some reason, it didn't even occur to me to do it that way…


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## Phil32

One of the obvious drawbacks to gluing the carving blank to a background board is the risk of nicking the background as you do the carving. I have taken to carving the actual pieces on a separate work board, then gluing them (or attaching in other ways) to the background. 
Of the two similar carvings below, the left one was carved fully glued together in the mid-1970's. The right one, with the wood colors reversed, was done in 2015 using the work board approach for the high relief figures.


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## Phil32

One of the obvious drawbacks to gluing the carving blank to a background board is the risk of nicking the background as you do the carving. I have taken to carving the actual pieces on a separate work board, then gluing them (or attaching in other ways) to the background.

Of the two similar carvings below, the left one was carved fully glued together in the mid-1970's. The right one, with the wood colors reversed, was done in 2015 using the work board approach for the high relief figures.


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## HokieKen

Those carvings are fantastic Phil. I'd be happy to be able to achieve something like that using any process!


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## HokieKen

I'm trying to make a list of the carving tools I have to make it easier for me to remember when I look on ebay or at flea markets etc.

Several of the tools I have are Spanish-made Mifer. Best I can tell, they are no longer around. But I can't find a numbering reference for them and the ones I have are numbered 75-79.


















So I'd like to compare them to sweep charts (I assume they would use the European standard rather than Sheffield).

So I went looking and was surprised that I couldn't find a European or Sheffield chart online in a pdf format that is scaled so it prints at true size. Is my google-foo just failing me? Can anyone provide me links to one or both of the charts properly scaled? If not, I can make them by printing and adjusting as needed but I find it hard to believe this doesn't exist…


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## Brit

Kenny - When you say levelling the background, I take it you do mean 'levelling'. I ask because before you can level, you have to 'lower'. Lowering is done with anything from a #6 to #9 of a size suitable for the amount you need to remove. You go across the grain creating parallel troughs. On the second pass you remove the peaks between the troughs. Then you would switch to something like a #3 or #4 and remove the peaks again. You will now be pretty flat, but if you want to be even flatter, Chris Pye worked with Ashley Iles to make some #2 1/2 sweep gouges for levelling the background of relief carvings. As you know #1 are chisels and #2 are skews or corner chisels and normally true gouges start at #3, so the #2 1/2 are even flatter than #3 gouges.

Another option which I went with are made by pfeil. They make a set of grounding gouges called 2a. They come in different widths, but I bought the 3mm, 8mm and 12mm and a 3mm left skew and a 3mm right skew. The skews enable you to get into all those tight corners. I used these on my 'Three Hares' carving and they worked really well. You use them with a high angle grip.


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## Brit

Sheffield List - https://d3h1zj156zzd4j.cloudfront.net/pdf/sheffieldlist.pdf


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## Dark_Lightning

> Kenny - When you say levelling the background, I take it you do mean levelling . I ask because before you can level, you have to lower . Lowering is done with anything from a #6 to #9 of a size suitable for the amount you need to remove. You go across the grain creating parallel troughs. On the second pass you remove the peaks between the troughs. Then you would switch to something like a #3 or #4 and remove the peaks again. You will now be pretty flat, but if you want to be even flatter, Chris Pye worked with Ashley Iles to make some #2 1/2 sweep gouges for levelling the background of relief carvings. As you know #1 are chisels and #2 are skews or corner chisels and normally true gouges start at #3, so the #2 1/2 are even flatter than #3 gouges.
> 
> Another option which I went with are made by pfeil. They make a set of grounding gouges called 2a. They come in different widths, but I bought the 3mm, 8mm and 12mm and a 3mm left skew and a 3mm right skew. The skews enable you to get into all those tight corners. I used these on my Three Hares carving and they worked really well. You use them with a high angle grip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


I guess I should have dug deeper into the Pfiel carving tool offerings! I bought a bunch of O1 tool steel to make exactly what I'm seeing. Well, that and a set of drakes that are smaller than their 05X21, 05X22 and 05X23 chisels. It's easier for me to buy than to make, given the hardening and tempering schedules.


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## HokieKen

Awesome Andy! Wasn't aware of the 2.5 sweeps  I did mean leveling. I have a good handle and some good gouges in various sizes for lowering. And my 3/4" #3 does well for levelling. Just seems like a larger gouge could save time. But then again, I guess if I'm in that big of a hurry I should just use a router ;-)

I'm working on a project now where those 3 mm skews would be mighty handy…


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## Phil32

In the Swiss numbering system the flat skews are #1S (as compared to #2 in the Sheffield or LPB numbering). The Swiss #2's are gouges with a flatter curve than #3's. The straight, full size #2's come in widths from 2mm to 35mm. There are even #2 fishtail gouges 60mm wide. I usually prefer a #3F-16mm or wider for flattening.


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## John Smith_inFL

while going through my signs folder, I found this one that Brit was mentioning.
the background is "lowered" or "recessed" and textured with tool marks.
it was for the US Army 4th Cavalry Regiment and is about 4ft tall, one sided out of poplar wood.
the cannon, sword and bayonet were carved separately and glued on. the rest of the crest was hand carved.










and on the other side of the spectrum, there is the "raised" background.
the brown textured part and tomahawk is carved out of 1.5" redwood and
glued to the separate blue oval piece that is also 1.5" redwood.
the lettering, star and maple leaf were hand routed. (no CNC was involved).
to me, the plain smooth backgrounds just look "empty" of craftsmanship.










.


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## HokieKen

Thank you Phil and John for that information and those examples! I'm really soaking up all the info I can right now. Carving is truly a whole new experience for me. The artistic part of it is very foriegn to a machinist-turned-engineer!

I have discovered a very important, must-have, essential tool for carving very small details in Mohogany…


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## DanKrager

HK, why did you get such a small "tool"? It could wear out getting used so much! LOL. The good news is that as you learn to control the entire cutting stroke and what the grain of your particular piece will tolerate, it gets better. Once again, extreme sharp is your friend.

DanK


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## Brit

Wonderful signs John.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Wonderful signs John.
> 
> - Brit


Indeed they are!

And, Ken- it took me awhile before I could lose my propensity for making the carving exactly like the picture. Having designed a lot of mechanical things that get machined by CNC, it was a change of mindset. What did it for me was fairly early in my carving class where I was slavishly following Lora Irish's Grape Leaf Man tutorial. I broke a piece off and was trying to figure out what to do about it. Then I noticed that the carving on the cover and the carving in the tutorial were noticeably different! I was free!


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## HokieKen

Excellent point Steven. I have taken some liberties with the subject I'm carving to make it more friendly to the tools I have. But, the issues I have with tight spaces just aren't really something I can "fudge" away…


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## Phil32

> For those who have done relief carvings, what do you recommend for leveling the background? The book I m working through recommends a 3/4" #3 sweep. But I m working on a sign that has a lot of background and I think something larger would save time and give better results. Just wondering if you guys have any specific recommendations. Once you get into larger sizes, the price jumps significantly so I don t really want to "just see if this works" in that price range. So what do you think is a practical "big" gouge? And I assume a #3 is best for final leveling but if you prefer a different sweep, I d be interested in your perspective
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> The width of gouge for leveling a background depends on the wood being carved & if you are using a mallet. If you prefer to stick to muscle-powered carving, the gouge is limited to what you can push through the wood. That, of course, depends also on how sharp you keep your tools. I have often used a #3-20mm in basswood. More recently a #3F-16 worked well in black walnut.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Excellent point Steven. I have taken some liberties with the subject I'm carving to make it more friendly to the tools I have. But, the issues I have with tight spaces just aren't really something I can "fudge" away…
> 
> - HokieKen


Indeed. It's why I appreciate the discovery of those 2a chisels. I have always tried to make things as faithfully as possible. The new find will enable me to get into areas that have stymied me, before. I don't care for chip carving, but the ability to cut from three directions leaving a nice, neat vertex at the bottom of the cut is something out of the chip carving realm that I'd really like to master. One can't get in there with sandpaper and make it nice, no matter what. Of course, the experienced carvers are probably rolling their eyes at my naivete…or lack of skill.

The coat of arms I'm carving, I learned from another member that a carving could be cut apart and made in pieces. That probably saved me $500 in tools! I simply hadn't thought of that. Never had that problem with tooling or mechanical ground support equipment. Welding and bolting is easy. :shrug:


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## Phil32

There are some forms of carving that emphasize "this is made in one piece," such as a ball-in-cage, but some of the most notable carvings in history have been carved in pieces such as the intricate floral and naturalist work of Grinling Gibbons in 14th century England or the huge altar piece in the cathedral at Seville. In many cases the actual work was parceled out to apprentices or other master carvers. I'm not talking about large glue-ups. Many of Gibbons' works had to be carved as separate pieces and assembled in layers.


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## Dark_Lightning

Yeah, I started in on a pair of interlocking hearts and realized how little I cared for the work, and the "ball in a cage" carving won't even be made in my NEXT lifetime! LOL. If I did something like that it would be a ball turned on the lathe and a softened cage with the ball stuffed in. People who want to do that have my admiration, though.


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## drsurfrat

OK, I'm new here, but I just gotta share. I carved this when I was a kid (pre 1980). It's from a fir 2×4 left laying around my Dad's shop. I managed to shorten my index finger by a quarter inch while trying to hold the loose ball to carve it. It still makes my stomach turn 40 years later. Still not bad for a 12 year old.


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## HokieKen

I enjoy the ball-in-cage type exercises. I've done a few variations. Most recently a ball-in-claw where the ball is freed but still retained. I like that I can just keep a chunk of wood and a knife in the truck and have it to work on whenever and wherever I find free time 

That's well done drsurfrat  I still haven't done a chain. I've definitely bled on a few (okay ALL) of my carvings but shortening a finger with a knife takes some doing!


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## Brit

drsurfrat - That is amazing, especially for 12 years old. Welcome to LJs. Good to have you around. Here's my ball in a cage effort.


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## Phil32

Yes, many of us have our ball-in-cage beginnings:










I also have a half ball-in-half-a-cage:


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## HokieKen

So I've been working on a relief carving and for the last week or so, I've been fighting with some really tight spaces between letters on part of it. I've gotten it all lined in and now I'm trying to get the background leveled out and cleaned up enough that it looks decent. But, I'm still pretty green and have a pretty limited selection of gouges and they're all straight.

Until I had a duh-huh moment and pulled out the last tools I bought for whittling. These fellas can get down into some tight spots )


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## drsurfrat

O, found another from my past:









I remember using a jewelers screwdriver as a drill and an exacto to carve it.

For something more grown up: I made 2 carving knives from one slojd blade:










I made a short sheepsfoot from the main knife, and ground the leftover to mount into a detail knife.










I shaped the handle of the sheepsfoot to climb way up on the blade so I could get my thumb the most leverage - finesse is not my middle name. The laminated steel is incredibly tough and stays sharp.

Mike (near Boston)


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## Brit

Lovely knives Mike.


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## HokieKen

So in my current project, I've found the need for all kinds of tools that I don't have :-( But, being pretty green, I wasn't sure where the best bang-for-my-buck would be. Instead of ordering a couple of tools from a well-known maker, I decided to buy the 12 piece set from Schaaf Tools.

I'll do a more thorough review later but first-impressions are that I'm very happy with the value these tools present. They have nice, octagonal handles similar to Pfeil and the steel is nice and thick. I will say, these tools are NOWHERE near being ready to use right out of the box though. They're more like a starting point… In fact, I noticed today that they sell this set for $96, or the same set sharpened for $141. So that's one way they keep their costs down. Fine with me! I figured to be re-shaping most, if not all, of them anyway. And I definitely knew I'd be sharpening them.

I had need for a small, fairly deep gouge immediately so I grabbed the 4mm #8 first. I forgot before pics but the edge was a little out of square and it was about as sharp as a butter knife. The bevel angle seemed to be about 40 degrees too. But, the steel is straight and symmetric and thick. So, I ground the tip square, honed in a slight bevel on the inside of the gouge and went to work shaping and honing it. I ended up with a bevel angle around 17 degrees. I took a picture with it next to the 6mm #7 so you can see how the "comissioned" compares to how the tools arrived at my door.









And I know the bevel looks uneven at the back but that's not the fault of the tool. That was me just being sloppy and not paying attention when I was easing the back end of the bevel :-/

So far, the only tool I seen a big problem with is the bent 20mm #7. The bevel is pretty absurdly uneven and the tip is very wavy:


















But I could grind it square and grind in a new bevel and it wouldn't be a problem and I wouldn't loose much of the steel. However (and it's hard to capture it in a photograph) the tool is slightly out of alignment with the handle. Not much but enough that it bothers me. 









So I intend to exchange that one once I take time to look more closely at the rest of the tools to be sure that's the only one that's defective. So I'll get the chance to see if their CS is as good as they say it is too ;-)

Overall though, I don't see how you can expect much more for <$100!


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## Brit

Well done Kenny.

I try not to get too hung up on sharpening anymore. If the tool does what I want it to do, I call it done. I think it is quite hard to get every aspect of sharpening a gouge perfect. I always square the end, but by the time I've finished with the inside and outside bevels it is rarely as straight and square as it was when I started. It doesn't affect my carving though.


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## Brit

I'm itching to do another carving project, but my landscaping project is taking all my time or I'm too exhausted from manual labour to do anything. I actually can't wait for winter when I should have some spare time again.


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## HokieKen

> Well done Kenny.
> 
> I try not to get too hung up on sharpening anymore. If the tool does what I want it to do, I call it done. I think it is quite hard to get every aspect of sharpening a gouge perfect. I always square the end, but by the time I ve finished with the inside and outside bevels it is rarely as straight and square as it was when I started. It doesn t affect my carving though.
> 
> - Brit


Thanks Andy  My biggest issues with re-shaping gouges are trying to get an even edge all the way around. I have taken to shaping them on my Worksharp with a Tormek-style jig. I put my dorky magifying lighted visor on and keep a constant watch on the width of the flat at the end rather than relying on the steel to be of a consistent shape and thickness and on the inside bevel I freehanded with a slip stone to to be even all around. By doing so, I get much better results and keep a lot more of my corners 

Another thing I learned from Chris Pye's instruction, and have since been firmly convinced of, is to drop the bevel angle (which I find is typically 25-35 degrees) down to 15-20 degrees. When I do that, I find I have significantly better control of my cuts and it requires much less force to push the tool through the cut. Of course, there's always a tradeoff… the shallower bevels require more frequent stropping.

I'm not fully convinced that an inside bevel is necessary though. I do hone the inside with a slip stone at an angle of a couple of degrees just to make sure that both sides of my cutting edge are fully polished. I haven't come around to putting a full 5-10 degreee bevel on that side though. Experience may teach me to do so but for now, it's a lot less work not to do it ;-)


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## Phil32

Thanks for the feedback Kenny & Andy. I recently bought the four piece Shaaf fishtail gouge set. In the process of commissioning them for my own use, I found them quite comparable to the Pfeil fishtails I already have.


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## HokieKen

That's great to hear Phil  I have extremely limited carving experience (just a hair north of not a damn bit…) and my tools are all second hand Mifer, Pfeil and Two Cherries. I now have a 6mm #7 in Schaaf and Pfeil. Doing a preliminary comparison between the two, the Schaaf is thicker steel and is a bit heavier. I'm pretty sure the handles are nearly identical. The Pfeil steel is more polished and the handle seems to have a bit more time spent on the finish. I'm looking forward to doing a direct, apples-to-apples comparison between the two when I get the Schaaf commissioned and can better assess the cutting and edge-holding ability of both.

I really hope that Schaaf starts selling tools individually instead of only in larger sets. It would be nice to have a US source for carving tools that are affordable. I'm pretty jealous of Andy's direct access to Ashley Iles across the pond. I paid less to order direct and have it shipped stateside than it would have been to buy the same tool from US sources with shipping. Not to mention nobody in the US had the tool I wanted.

That reminds me, what kind of Holiday did y'all have over there Andy? When I e-mailed to check on the status of my order last week, they said the warehouse was closed until today for holiday. What week long holiday do y'all have in August?


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## Brit

There isn't a week long national holiday in August Kenny. It isn't uncommon for some manufacturing companies to shut down for a week or two during the summer though, so I guess that is what Ashley Iles are doing.

We do have a bank holiday in England on Monday 31st August though and then that's it until Christmas.


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## HokieKen

Well, after 35 days, the eagle finally landed yesterday )


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## Brit

Hoorah!


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## Brit

Now tell me you don't like those carver's pattern handles )


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## HokieKen

They do feel mighty good Andy  Although to be fair, all I've done so far is pull them out of the plastic… I hope to find some time this weekend to shape and sharpen them up and give them a test run. The V tool grind is pretty decent but the grind on the #3 gouge looks worse than most of the Schaaf tools. Which is fine, I figured on shaping them myself anyway.


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## HokieKen

Okay, this is what I made for the beer swap and that swap is finished now so I can post it. My first relief carving and first time painting any kind of wooden project. Thanks to Andy for some advice on how to get into the tight spots!

Here is the carving before I painted. It's done in Mahogany.









Then I put a black base coat over everything.









Then I drybrushed some acrylics over the black.









I would have liked to leave it au natural but I was trying to replicate a sign from the Lord of the Rings.









There were lots of mistakes made and it was a big learning experience. But it was a ton of fun. I'm looking forward to doing more relief carvings and to being able to add another dimension to some of my projects


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## RWE

Very nice. If that was your first relief carving, I think you did very well. I remember that scene, I believe it was in The Hobbit, where they met up at the The Prancing Pony. May have been in one of the trilogy books.

I am planning on trying some chip carving projects. I have accumulated a beginner's set of knives and chisels but I have not sharpened them yet, nor done any beginning patterns. Time is tight right now since I am doing some remodeling work on my house.

Seeing your relief carving has inspired me to get focused on my chip carving prelim activities. I did pick up some Basswood for practice.


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## HokieKen

The Prancing Pony was in the Hobbit and also in the Fellowship of the Ring RWE. Although, I don't think the sign was actually in either movie. The sign comes from a video game based on Tolkien's world.

The great thing about carving is that you can do it in 10 or 15 minute segments as time allows. In fact for me, doing it in small doses prevents rushing or getting lazy


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## Karda

very nice Ken


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## Brit

Well done Ken. That came out Ok didn't it. The lettering looks good.


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## John Smith_inFL

very nicely done, Kenny.
how did you arrive at getting the specs from a picture to a paper pattern ?

.


----------



## PrinterPete

> So carving tools or carvings of your dreams or both?
> 
> - Combo Prof


both


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## PrinterPete

> Thanks for the feedback Kenny & Andy. I recently bought the four piece Shaaf fishtail gouge set. In the process of commissioning them for my own use, I found them quite comparable to the Pfeil fishtails I already have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i like to see it finished, Escher has many drawings and estsen. Also impossible drawings for our eyes.
> b.t.w.
> 
> Is it possible to set a bigger font?
> 
> - Phil32


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## Dark_Lightning

I made the Acanthus leaf earrings that are in the Mary May tutorial of the Fall edition of Woodcarving Illustrated. In the article, she calls for #3 gouges in 3mm and 6mm. I couldn't find anything like that online, so it brings me back to making my own when I need them. I bought some O1 steel for that purpose awhile back, but… has anyone used O1 for carving tools? My starting failure for anything like this is that I don't have a forge to do the annealing, which is done at 1140F. On top of that I don't have a pyrometer. I've seen where inexpensive forges can be made, and if I make a bunch of shapes, I'd eventually recoup the cost of the pyrometer and forge materials.

I ended up with a v-gouge and a detail knife, but I think they would look better if I'd had the right tool(s). I don't think I'll be making any carvings this small again. Too much trouble for these large mitts I have.

So, then the question I need answered is if anyone has a clean picture of the radii for the chisels? I see badly pixelated pictures on line, but when I make a shape I'll want the radius of curvature set to what it is supposed to be.


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## Karda

check on utube for coffee can forges. they are small and easy to make and powered by a plumbers propane torch. i was going to make one but tempering is my challenge


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## donwilwol

Steven, you really don't need a pyrometer. As Karda said, the coffee can forges or other simple forges can be made fairly easily and inexpensively. Annealing and heat treating can be done by watching the color of the steel. Tempering is done at much lower temps and I use a toaster over.

Check out http://zoellerforge.com/coffee.html

I have some post on https://bladesmithing.timetestedtools.net that may help you


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## Dark_Lightning

Thanks, guys! I watched several forge builds on you-tube. I know about the colors, so maybe not having a pyrometer isn't so much of an issue. I have a cooker that can be used dry to the temps needed for tempering. It would appear that getting the radii of curvature is more of an issue, but I will dig them up from somewhere.


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## donwilwol

What do you mean by needing the radii of the chisel? You want it to be the curvature you want to carve, right? Find an old catalog of edge tools and it should have a complete display.


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## Brit

Steven - The curvature of carving gouges is referred to as the 'sweep' and all of the different sizes are collectively known as the 'Sheffield List'. You can download the complete Sheffield List here: https://d3h1zj156zzd4j.cloudfront.net/pdf/sheffieldlist.pdf


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## Phil32

This is utter nonsense! Why would you make your carving tools with a coffee can forge & plumber's torch? The charts on gouge curves are readily available from distributers of the tools. Pfeil (Swiss Made) gouges are sold exclusively by Woodcraft in the U.S. Schaaf Tools are now matching Pfeil gouges for about $12 each.


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## donwilwol

Most of what I do is considered utter nonsense by somebody.


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## Brit

That's utter nonsense Don. :0)


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## HokieKen

Sometimes making tools can be as satisfying as using them. Or more. Nonsense or not ;-)


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## Dark_Lightning

OK, I said radii of curvature, but should have said sweep. I want the tools to be palm size, and to pick one example, a gouge used by Mary May, like I said above, was #3 sweep and 3 mm wide, of which the only example I've seen is in a Pfeil full size. I don't want to use a 9" long chisel on a 1.75" long project. I bought enough O1 tool steel to make a dozen chisels for $9. And I can turn the handles on the lathe, or maybe make a handle such that I can interchange the chisels. I will check out Schaaf Tools' offerings.

And thanks for the list, Brit!


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## Karda

Phil why would you not, and you can make the tool the way you want it. the tool may not be as good as Pfiel but it will work and that is what count. It is very satisfing to do a job with tools you make your self


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## HokieKen

I bought a set of the Schaaf tools Steven. I have only used 3 of them and they required attention before being ready to use. They are of good design and made of quality materials though. For the money, they are an incredible value. The only downside is that you can't buy individual tools, you have to buy them in sets.


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## Dark_Lightning

> I bought a set of the Schaaf tools Steven. I have only used 3 of them and they required attention before being ready to use. They are of good design and made of quality materials though. For the money, they are an incredible value. The only downside is that you can't buy individual tools, you have to buy them in sets.
> 
> - HokieKen


If they had been known to me before I bought a few dozen Pfeil large chisels, I might have gone that way. They don't make any palm tools, which is what I would have preferred for these little pendant earrings. Pfeil only makes the 40 palm tools, and I have those already. I have the Henry Taylor Acorn series, too. I'm thinking of grinding them into submission for other projects. :O


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## DavePolaschek

O1 will make fine carving tools, Steven.

I prefer the full size carving tools, but I picked up a set of the small Shinto carving tools in a sale on woodcraft after I moved and before I unpacked my "real" carving tools. They're not palm tools, but little ones that are meant to be tapped with a small mallet. Came with a set of six in a blister-pack for $40, and the steel is pretty good. If you're set on making your own, cool. If you're looking for a shortcut, you could do worse than those…


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## Dark_Lightning

> O1 will make fine carving tools, Steven.
> 
> I prefer the full size carving tools, but I picked up a set of the small Shinto carving tools in a sale on woodcraft after I moved and before I unpacked my "real" carving tools. They're not palm tools, but little ones that are meant to be tapped with a small mallet. Came with a set of six in a blister-pack for $40, and the steel is pretty good. If you're set on making your own, cool. If you're looking for a shortcut, you could do worse than those…
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


Thanks! I'm not seeing a sweep like what I wanted for my last project, but that's kind of moot, given that it is finished. I'm looking at making my own for two reasons- some of the shapes just can't be found, and then I'm going to drop ca $40+ apiece for them. I'm also running out of space for tool chests, so making them to fit a common handle is becoming a lot more appealing. If I have to, I'll derive the sweep for the tools that I need. A mathematical description of the shape isn't out of my skillset, but I'd prefer to just be given those shapes at this point in my life. I'm up against just buying a tool for a collection, if I only use it once. There's another project I want to start on, but the chisels required that I don't have are going to be about $500. I'll use what I have and make some of the rest, if I can. I used to design tools as part of my employment, but they were machined, for the most part, and didn't require heat treatment. If I do go the route of making my own, I'll probably start a thread about that. It's pretty much out of the scope of this thread, I think. What does everyone think about that?

PS- I know that O1 will work, I've been looking into this for months, on and off.


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## Underdog

> Steven - The curvature of carving gouges is referred to as the sweep and all of the different sizes are collectively known as the Sheffield List . You can download the complete Sheffield List here: https://d3h1zj156zzd4j.cloudfront.net/pdf/sheffieldlist.pdf
> 
> - Brit


 Oh Man! Thanks for that! I've got an odd assortment of gouges that I need to figure out and this will be JUST the thing!


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## Dark_Lightning

To revisit this topic, I finally found what I needed, made by Ashley Iles! No idea why they didn't turn up in all my previous searches. I bought seven tools that I need right now, and got them yesterday. They are very nice! They also have the "same" sort of handles as the Henry Taylor Acorn series chisels that I've had for awhile. Looks like I'll have to adjust the contents of my portable chest drawers to accommodate them all. I may still make some if the need is too strange for the normal manufacturers to make. Not certain what that would be, just yet.


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## HokieKen

I bought a v tool and a gouge from Ashley Iles a few months ago and haven't used them much but so far I like them. I really like the handles. FYI, I ordered directly from AI in England and even after shipping was factored in it was cheaper than ordering from any US reseller that I could find. Not to mention nobody in the US had the tools I wanted in stock. Very good people to deal with.

Got one carving project going for Christmas. Here's a teaser ;-)


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## Lazyman

Ah, the famed winged Christmas skull! ;-)


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## Dark_Lightning

> I bought a v tool and a gouge from Ashley Iles a few months ago and haven't used them much but so far I like them. I really like the handles. FYI, I ordered directly from AI in England and even after shipping was factored in it was cheaper than ordering from any US reseller that I could find. Not to mention nobody in the US had the tools I wanted in stock. Very good people to deal with.
> 
> Got one carving project going for Christmas. Here's a teaser ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - HokieKen


I'll have to check into that. I bought from a reseller here in the US. If you buy 6 or more they knock 10% off. That covered the 2-day shipping, which I didn't actually about. There was one I wanted that was not in stock. Mine were all "block cutters", as they call what we call "palm tools" here in the US. Cool flying skul!


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## Phil32

The so-called Sheffield List is actually the London Pattern Book. There is also the Swiss numbering system which is similar, but they stay with the basic number for the profile or sweep and add a letter to designate shapes like spoon bent, long bent, fishtail, etc. - 3a, 3L, 3F They also make a distinction between Palm Carving Tools and Block Cutters. The Pfeil (Swiss Made) chart is here:

https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/pfeil-tools-chart


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## Phil32

(duplicate entry)


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## HokieKen

Yeah the two charts and overlap can get confusing. I have about a 50/50 mix of Swiss and Sheffield tools. I've printed out the Sheffield chart to scale and taken to writing the Sheffield equivalent sweep on my Swiss pattern tools to avoid buying duplicates or near duplicates.


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## Dark_Lightning

> The so-called Sheffield List is actually the London Pattern Book. There is also the Swiss numbering system which is similar, but they stay with the basic number for the profile or sweep and add a letter to designate shapes like spoon bent, long bent, fishtail, etc. - 3a, 3L, 3F They also make a distinction between Palm Carving Tools and Block Cutters. The Pfeil (Swiss Made) chart is here:
> 
> https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/pfeil-tools-chart
> 
> - Phil32


I have both sets of charts. The Pfeil pics are so fuzzy when blown up that I can't use them. It's a moot point now anyway, since I'm getting the fill-in sizes and sweeps with the Ashley Iles tools- those that the Henry Taylor chisels didn't fill, as distinguished from the Pfeil chisels. I will buy a couple more chisels, but I'm going to wait and see what is needed and can't be circumvented. Otherwise, I'm just going to have a tool collection!


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## Phil32

> Phil why would you not, and you can make the tool the way you want it. the tool may not be as good as Pfiel but it will work and that is what count. It is very satisfying to do a job with tools you make your self
> 
> - Karda


Sorry I missed answering your question, Karda - 
Every carving tool I use has been "commissioned" to my use, so it would be incorrect to put special significance on ones I might make myself. Likewise, carving tools are not limited to a single task. I use the corners of fishtail gouges as skews, and the centers for planing backgrounds or for stop cuts. 
When it comes to forging the basic tool, I know I can never match the expertise Pfeil has achieved over hundreds of years with hundreds of profiles. Why would I brush that aside?
Phil


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## Karda

i can't even remember what I responded to phil


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## HokieKen

Here's something someone here might relate to.

When I started the Christmas Winged Skull carving, I printed out my pattern and taped the top edge to the board and slipped a piece of carbon paper between to transfer my lines to the board.









So I started tracing over the lines with a pencil. Now I have fat fingers and they HATE regular pencils. I normally use a fat mechanical pencil I made for the shop but it was MIA when I was doing this so I had to use a much smaller drafting pencil seen in the picture. Well, I can tell you that by then end of tracing the pattern, my hand HURT! Oh well, at least I was done  So then I flipped the pattern up and pulled the carbon paper out and… my board was blank :-(

But I had successfully transferred the pattern from the front of the paper to the back.









So I calmly, and with a smile, flipped the carbon paper over the proper way and repeated the process. I definitely did not rip the pattern up into small pieces and snap the pencil ;-)


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## Lazyman

Lately, I've been using my CNC machine to transfer my carving patterns to the wood.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Here s something someone here might relate to.
> 
> When I started the Christmas Winged Skull carving, I printed out my pattern and taped the top edge to the board and slipped a piece of carbon paper between to transfer my lines to the board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I started tracing over the lines with a pencil. Now I have fat fingers and they HATE regular pencils. I normally use a fat mechanical pencil I made for the shop but it was MIA when I was doing this so I had to use a much smaller drafting pencil seen in the picture. Well, I can tell you that by then end of tracing the pattern, my hand HURT! Oh well, at least I was done  So then I flipped the pattern up and pulled the carbon paper out and… my board was blank :-(
> 
> But I had successfully transferred the pattern from the front of the paper to the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I calmly, and with a smile, flipped the carbon paper over the proper way and repeated the process. I definitely did not rip the pattern up into small pieces and snap the pencil ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


I'd claim that I've never put the carbon paper upside down but Odin would not be pleased, and I'd be struck by…lightning. I have some burnishing tools that I use for the transfer instead of pencils, as they are smooth and don't tear the paper. I have large hands as well, and it's tough to hold the burnishers for extended periods. I guess I found a lathe project. I can turn some larger handles for them. I'd've set fire to the pattern and the pencil, myself! No anger management issues here!


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## HokieKen

Nathan - cheater ;-p

Steven - Fat fingers and anger issues? It's like looking in the mirror!


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## HokieKen

I finally finshed up most of my other Christmas presents yesterday. So I came to the shop and cleared the bench first thing. Now I'm looking forward to a nice long session with my traditional winged Christmas skull


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## HokieKen

I sure do wish I had learned my lesson about picking patterns with tight spots on the last project…


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## Brit




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## Brit

Thanks for the laugh Kenny.

I like to draw/print my image on thick tracing paper and just glue it to the wood with 3M Photomount spray adhesive, then I just carve through it.


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## HokieKen

Well written Andy ))

There's a nice set of old Marples arving tools on Patrick Leach's list this month that might hold you over ;-) Lots of Pfeils on the list too but he must have overpaid a bit for those…


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## Phil32

> Thanks for the laugh Kenny.
> 
> I like to draw/print my image on thick tracing paper and just glue it to the wood with 3M Photomount spray adhesive, then I just carve through it.
> 
> - Brit


The problem is that carving is a "subtracting" activity. As you progress, you remove your pattern. I print my pattern on regular computer paper. Attach it to the wood with pushpins along one edge & use transfer paper to mark only the major reference lines. When needed, I re-attach the pattern with the pushpins & add new pattern lines.


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## Dark_Lightning

I've been transferring patterns with carbon paper, but use tape to hold the pattern to the blank. Once I get the big chunks gone, it's a pain to trace again. I'm using my mind's eye on the latest project, which is a family coat of arms. I'm looking at the 2D pic and deciding how deep I'm going to dive, and where. It'll be like most things, just a little different from the "actual" picture. That's mostly with the shredded cloak, which is symmetrical in the picture, but who ever came back from a fight in a symmetrical form? 8^)


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## HokieKen

Finally getting around to putting the finishing touches on this. The hooks I ordered before Christmas got lost so the next order just arrived and spurred me to action. Needs another couple coats of oil and some screws and I can kick it off my bench for good.


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## Karda

good work Ken whose man cave does it go in


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## HokieKen

Thanks! It's my son's.


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## keithHG

Basswood is the easiest wood to carve and Chip carving tools, spoon carving gouges, different chisels, wood whittling knives are the tools used in wood carving 
best tools for beginners
BeaverCraft S10-Wood carving Tools Set of 12 Knives
BeaverCraft S01 Spoon Carving Set
Flexcut SK107 wood carving tools
BeaverCraft S13 Spoon Carving Kit
Flexcut KN700 Deluxe Palm & Knife Set


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## Phil32

As implied by the statement at the bottom of my postings, I think we should judge someone's carving tool recommendations by the quality of the carving projects they have posted. How can you know what tools, wood, machines, etc. are BEST if you have produced nothing ?


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## HokieKen

I think keithHG is a spammer that forgot to insert his link Phil. I would take his recommendations with a grain of salt. And then ignore them ;-)


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## MikeB_UK

Hope he's right about the beavercraft knife set though, turned up last week


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## HokieKen

I'll look forward to hearing some legit thoughts on them Mike!


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## RWE

I am researching brands and pricing. I just did the Mary May flower and I did not have enough gouges to do it properly. it is ok, but not post worthy.

I have two Pfiel's that I got from Woodcraft when they had a big sale going on.

I have Pfiel 5/14 Gouge, 16/6 V chisel.

I don't like the Woodcraft prices, but I am not seeing anything much better. Until I get my feet wet and have more experience, I did not want to go crazy (like I did with handsaws, chisels, planes etc.) so I am looking for the most bang for the buck to round out a Mary May beginner set of 6.

Any of you experts have a brand that you like that hits in the $30-40 per tool range? Amazon is better than Woodcraftt on Pfiel prices. I hear a lot of talk about Two Cherries and Ashley Isle (sp), Taylor etc. Are the Flexcut offerings any good? I figure Schaaf is a Pfiel knockoff and is not good.

Any advice is welcom. I started reading the thread and got to post 250 or so and did not see this topic coming up at that point. Did not want to ask a redundant question.


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## Phil32

It takes only a quick glance to see that the Beavercraft knife set has been rushed through production - knife bevels less than half the blade width, handles with poorly shaped edges. 
Please look through my Projects to see if I'm qualified as a woodcarver to make such a judgement.


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## HokieKen

RWE, I bought a set of Schaaf tools and they are quite good. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them at all. Especially when trying to build an initial set of tools and get a better idea of what you really need. They are indeed Pfeil knock-offs and dang good ones. I actually like them better because the steel is a bit thicker. They do require considerable attention to be ready to carve though. They came with a very rough grind. So, if shaping and sharpening isn't your thing, they aren't for you ;-)

I believe my favorite tools so far are Ashley Iles though. I just like the feel of the handle and they seem to hold a keen edge longer than the swiss pattern tools I have. I also have several Flexcut tools and I like them a lot for whittling-type projects but they aren't among my first choices for relief carvings and such. It really depends on what kinds of projects you plan to tackle.


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## MikeB_UK

> I ll look forward to hearing some legit thoughts on them Mike!
> 
> - HokieKen


Legit might be a bit iffy, I have no idea what half of them are for 

Only had time to play with the detail knife so far (The short one, not the weird stiletto thing).
Was sharp when it turned up, so just stropped it a bit, holds an edge well.

In a fit of unprecedented (for me at least) common sense, I figure I'll go a knife at a time and get a feel for them instead of just diving in and bandaging myself up later.
The hook knife looks lethal, so I figure I'll try a spoon next


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## Brit

Nice job on the coat rack Kenny. Looks like you managed to get into all those tight recesses in the end.


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## RWE

Thanks Hokie. There is a carver's club that meets once a month here. I was going to join, then Covid hit. So I am a bit awash about what I might want to try to get good at. I bought two Chip Carving books and may go that direction, but I have been a fan of Mary May since I saw her years ago on The Woodwright Shop. So relief carving may be my thing.

I am awash with small bits of sawmill wood and I plan to try to climb out of the "intermediate" woodworker status that I have lived in for 50 years (started in Elementary school) and advance to "expert" before I kick off. So well done boxes with some chip carving on the lids was my goal. That was all pre-Covid. Unfortunately, I wake up everyday and something else pulls my attention.

I dont' see much on here about chip carving.


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## RWE

When you read Amazon reviews, you never can quite figure out what the true story is about a product. On the Schaaf reviews, it was mentioned that they were quite dull to start with. I can sharpen, so that is not a major issue, but it made me wonder about the metal and the quality.

If a man who carves a winged skull says they are ok, I will buy into it. Nice looking project.


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## HokieKen

I've never done any chip carving but those tools are very specialized and don't really translate to relief carving I don't think. I did mark this 4-part video series on chip carving coasters last year but haven't ever watched it. It looked like a good easy to follow crash course though


----------



## HokieKen

> When you read Amazon reviews, you never can quite figure out what the true story is about a product. On the Schaaf reviews, it was mentioned that they were quite dull to start with. I can sharpen, so that is not a major issue, but it made me wonder about the metal and the quality.
> 
> If a man who carves a winged skull says they are ok, I will buy into it. Nice looking project.
> 
> - RWE


Thanks  The tools require significant attention before you can actually put them to work. For me, that basically comes down to squaring up the ends and re-shaping the bevel to be 15-20 degrees rather than 30-35 that they come with. That's a one-time chore though and they can be maintained with just stropping after that. The winged skull is the first project that I've used Schaaf tools on extensively and I have to say that they seemed to be just as good as the Pfeil tools that I have. I don't see any perceptible difference in the keenness of the edge and didn't feel like they required stropping any more often than Pfeil, Ashley Iles or Two Cherries tools that I have.

I know Phil, who is much more versed than I in carving and tools, also has some of the Schaaf tools and seemed to give them a thumbs-up as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong Phil, I don't mean to put words in your mouth


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## HokieKen

> Nice job on the coat rack Kenny. Looks like you managed to get into all those tight recesses in the end.
> 
> - Brit


Thanks Andy! I was less than thrilled with the tight corners. I just couldn't get them as clean as I really wanted to. I think that's just something that will have to come with experience… It could be the Mahogany to some extent too. I think I'm going to tackle your 3 Hares next because Pye has a free YouTube tutorial on it. I ordered some Basswood for this one to see how much of a difference the wood makes. I have a feeling I'll want to purchase some of the grounding tools he recommends though and won't be able to get them because nobody's making them.


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## RWE

Will check the YouTube link. I have a Moor (Dennis Moor) stab knife, (from memory, used to stab little details) and a Henckels knife, but I will need to expand those tools I am sure if I go the chip carving route. May do a little relief carving and a little chip carving and remain an "intermediate". LOL


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## HokieKen

Jack of all trades and master of none is where I reside too. Not a bad pool to swim in if you ask me ;-p


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## Brit

At least the grounding tools are Pfeil Kenny as they seem to be the most available at the moment.


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## Brit

BTW - I sent that poem I posted above to Ashley Iles and they replied saying "Love the poem. We are not closed, just have long deliveries because we are so busy." Not sure what that means really. All I know is that I've been waiting months for them to make the tools I want and restock them so I can buy them. As soon as they hit the shelves and I get an email, I'll be snapping them up.


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## Karda

I have a srtyi bent gouge and a spoon knife. I don't use them a lot and I carve only occasionally so not really a carver. But the blades hold a good edge, mine were carving sharp out of the box just needed honing. the gouge handle is good but the spoon knife handle was junk so I replaced it. from my experience some of the handles are junk and the tangs on the gouges are rolled instead of cast. probably not the tools for a carver but good for somebody just starting.


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## DavePolaschek

> In a fit of unprecedented (for me at least) common sense, I figure I'll go a knife at a time and get a feel for them instead of just diving in and bandaging myself up later.
> The hook knife looks lethal, so I figure I'll try a spoon next


I have to admit I'm a little disappointed, Mike. ;-)

I agree with Kenny about the Ashley Iles being darned nice. I've got mostly Pfeil carving gouges, and am teaching myself lettercarving at the moment. For a beginner, there are so many different kinds of carving that you really need to figure out what you want to do first, and *then* get the correct tools. Lettercarving is completely different needs than chip-carving is different than Peter Follansbee-style relief carving in oak…


----------



## Karda

I have a srtyi bent gouge and a spoon knife. I don't use them a lot and I carve only occasionally so not really a carver. But the blades hold a good edge, mine were carving sharp out of the box just needed honing. the gouge handle is good but the spoon knife handle was junk so I replaced it. from my experience some of the handles are junk and the tangs on the gouges are rolled instead of cast. probably not the tools for a carver but good for somebody just starting.


----------



## DLK

> I ll look forward to hearing some legit thoughts on them Mike!
> 
> - HokieKen


I bought this spoon carving set to carry with me in the car for camping from Beavercraft and it is really nice.

I think is better than the Mora knives. And for $38.95 here on Amazon prime quite reasonble. I did have to grind the back of the hook knife to get it to work proper, but I had to do that for the Mora hook knife too. It's a pretty standard adjustment. Made in the Ukraine


----------



## Karda

I agree better than the mora spoon knives. My first spoon knife was a Mora and i was very disappointed. I have 2 Mora straight carving knives and I love them. But the spoon knives have such a short bevel with a high ridge that you can't get a good edge and the knife cuts very deep. The only fix, (I got it from a Anne of all trades video) is to grind down the center ridge so you can make a longer shallower bevel that will take a good edge and not dig in. The Sytri is a flat blade with a wide shallow bevel, cuts really nice


----------



## donwilwol

> I ll look forward to hearing some legit thoughts on them Mike!
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> I bought this spoon carving set to carry with me in the car for camping from Beavercraft and it is really nice.
> 
> I think is better than the Mora knives. And for $38.95 here on Amazon prime quite reasonble. I did have to grind the back of the hook knife to get it to work proper, but I had to do that for the Mora hook knife too. It s a pretty standard adjustment. Made in the Ukraine
> 
> - Combo Prof


Have you resharpened yet. The beavercraft I had was absolutely fabulous until I had to sharpen it. I could never get it sharp again no matter what I did


----------



## HokieKen

The Mora hook knives are good after you fix them. I have no clue why they put such an atrocious grind on them from the factory. The steel is good, the sweep is good and I love the oiled Birch handles. But yeah, right out of the box trying to use them is an exercise in frustration.


----------



## HokieKen

> ...
> Have you resharpened yet. The beavercraft I had was absolutely fabulous until I had to sharpen it. I could never get it sharp again no matter what I did
> 
> - Don W


Did you try grinding it back a bit further and trying again Don? I hear tell that sometimes when the final grinding is done on some knives/tools at manufacture, that the steel can be heated enough that it ruins the temper near the surface without sacrificing the immediate edge. I've read this primarily about chisels but don't see why it couldn't apply to knives too. I suspect Beavercraft tools are being ground by a machine at about a dozen per minute so I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. Of course I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't properly hardened at all to begin with either…


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## HokieKen

> At least the grounding tools are Pfeil Kenny as they seem to be the most available at the moment.
> 
> - Brit


For the 3 Hares project, Pye recommends the 2a straight gouges at 3, 8 and 12 mm. And the 2a l/r pair of skews at 3mm. It seems redundant to me to have a straight and the skews all in the same size? At ~$40 a pop, I ain't about to just grab all 5  I can see the utility of the shortbent skews though.

Since you've done the carving, if I were only going to buy two of those tools (bear in mind, I have no other shortbent gouges other than a couple palm tools in a 7 or 8 sweep in the 3/8" neighborhood) would a pair of the skews be your recommendation? And 3mm seems kinda small. Would 5mm be more generally useful?


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## DLK

> I ll look forward to hearing some legit thoughts on them Mike!
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> I bought this spoon carving set to carry with me in the car for camping from Beavercraft and it is really nice.
> 
> I think is better than the Mora knives. And for $38.95 here on Amazon prime quite reasonble. I did have to grind the back of the hook knife to get it to work proper, but I had to do that for the Mora hook knife too. It s a pretty standard adjustment. Made in the Ukraine
> 
> - Combo Prof
> 
> Have you resharpened yet. The beavercraft I had was absolutely fabulous until I had to sharpen it. I could never get it sharp again no matter what I did
> 
> - Don W


Well so far so good. But they are fairly new and have not have had enough of a work out yet for me to need to seriously resharpen yet. I have a couple of projects to finish and then I will try to find some green wood to spoon carve with them.



> The Mora hook knives are good after you fix them. I have no clue why they put such an atrocious grind on them from the factory. The steel is good, the sweep is good and I love the oiled Birch handles. But yeah, right out of the box trying to use them is an exercise in frustration.
> 
> - HokieKen


When I reground the backs I used the benchtop belt sander and worksharp which run much cooler than the grinding wheel. The steel never got hot enough to ruin the temper.


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## controlfreak

The wife and I are thinking about wood carving and she has a birthday coming up. I was thinking about getting some Ashley Iles to get started but there are so many variations. I would like to get maybe six or so to start. I am not really sure if the carving is going to reliefs which is what I think will be my preference or figures which may be hers. It is like I got to start somewhere but can't seem to take the plunge.


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## RWE

I am starting with the Mary May basic set:

6mm vtool
#3 6mm
#3 14 mm
#5 14 mm
#7 6 mm
#7 14 mm

All that I have are the #5 14 and the v chisel so far. I fortunately have a birthday coming up.

Watch a Mary May tutorial on YouTube, she will have a link to her Web site, then explore it and you will find the notes on this "Basic" set.


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## HokieKen

Well if you're wanting AI and her birthday is anytime soon, you better order now… And they don't have much in stock at the moment. I just left their site looking at their shortbent skews and they don't have a single size available to order :-(

This is the "starter set" that Chris Pye recommends in his book that I bought as a crash course.


















It's as good as any list I suppose. It's really hard to pick an initial set without specific projects in mind. Every project will require one or two new tools. If I were going back to square 1, I'd buy this Schaaf set and spend time "commissioning" them as Chris Pye instructs. I like his methodology personally but there are lots of videos and articles from other carvers you can use as well.

That set will get you through a lot of projects. Then save your $ to buy individual tools from Ashley Iles or Pfeil or whoever as your needs arise.


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## Phil32

I agree with HokieKen's conclusion as to a starting point on tool selection. For many projects, you do not want to stall out because you have only one gouge and it doesn't do what you need to do. Likewise, taking the time to "commission" the tools you have. You also should devote time to learning how to use each tool. It is not automatic. Many beginning carvers make the mistake of going immediately to their first project.

*Did you start writing your memoir while in your first typing class?*


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## controlfreak

All good advice. I went ahead and bought the Chris Pye book to get a better feel for this before jumping in. The Schaaf set at $100 looks like the better way forward than spending $400 on a set that may not be utilized fully. Thanks for the guidance.


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## MikeB_UK

Had a play with the Beavercraft hook knife.
First thoughts, bearing in mind I've never used a hook knife before.

Not entirely convinced on the cutting angle, some of that is definitely technique as it got easier as I went on. I'll tweak it as I go I think, probably not a good idea reshaping a bevel when you aren't used to the tool.

A gouge is quicker and easier, but I was surprised how smooth a finish I could get with it on the first attempt.

It's a bloody weird shape to sharpen, think I need to watch some youtube vids.
Any reason why the inside is flat instead of beveled? Feels like I could get a smoother cut taking a bit off the back.

Sharp end should point away from you, who designs these things


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## RWE

Here is my "Not worthy for posting" Mary May flower project done with one gouge (#5 14) and one v-chisel. Not sure if it is a flower or a kid's whirligig. I offer it to show what not having enough gouge sweeps will do for you. Could not refine the center at all.

I am getting the $49 Schaff set of gouges soon and will try to improve on the flower/whirligig.


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## donwilwol

I did try grinding it back. Keep in mind I've made several of the same. It actually has become my template.


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## Karda

one thing I have found is that my spoon knife cuts better cross grain. I was working on a spoon last night, kinda smoothing and balancing the bowl and one side had a high spot, it was a tiny knot with a hard spot around it. My spoon knife cut it like butter. Also it cuts better if I take a shallow cut


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## DavePolaschek

> It's a bloody weird shape to sharpen, think I need to watch some youtube vids.
> Any reason why the inside is flat instead of beveled? Feels like I could get a smoother cut taking a bit off the back.


The outside of hook knives are beveled so it's easier to sharpen on a standard whetstone *and* so that you can adjust the bevel to your working style, but if using it in the traditional way, you're riding the bevel while cutting, similar to when turning with a skew or using a (bevel up) spokeshave, where part of the blade acts as the guide to help control your cut. The inside is flat, and you only touch that with a bit of rouge on a dowel or strop to knock off the wire edge you made while sharpening.

And yeah, they're a lot better cutting across the grain. Jögge Sundqvist's Knife Grip Sessions have one episode on using a hook knife and another two on sharpening that are worth watching.


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## Phil32

My grand-daughter carved this flower with #5-12mm gouge & V-tool when she was nine years old:


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## RWE

Phil: Well I am going to be 69 later this month, but the 9 year old has me beat. In my defense, it was mainly just an attempt to carve something to see if I would enjoy it. I did enjoy it immensely and will expand my gouge choices. I also will do the flower again and try to do better.

Once Covid clears up, I hope to get some pointers from the carvers club here.

Did your granddaughter ever do another carving or was it a one and done thing?


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## HokieKen

It's all about the enjoyment for me RWE. Don't get hung up on comparing your own work to that of more accomplished carvers. That guarantees disappointment. There is a low barrier to entry but an exceptionally steep learning curve. At least in my estimation. Just have fun with it and focus on making each project a little better than the last


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## RWE

Hokie: That is good advice but I come from the tradition of the woodworker or craftsperson that only sees the mistake. I think that is what motivates me. If my mistakes were fatal, I would have been dead a long time ago. I can count two or three things that I have done that I feel any sense of real accomplishment and if I stare at them long enough, I see issues. One day.

It is about the enjoyment of doing.

I did find that carving is like the satisfaction you get in dovetail work, chisels are fun. Gouges may be more fun it seems. Looking forward to doing my second beginner project when those Schaaf gouges get here.


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## Lazyman

For an absolute beginner to relief carving, Mary May's free lessons are an excellent start, IMO. I took my iPad out to the shop and I simply watched her video and paused while I mimicked what she was doing and backed up to watch again if it wasn't working on the first attempt. It made it pretty easy to get a good result on the first attempt. By the 3rd carving lesson I got a result that I wouldn't be embarrassed to include in project and the confidence to take photos I can adapt for carving myself. I highly recommend them for beginners. It requires you to register on her website but I haven't gotten any unsolicited emails so you don't need to worry about getting a bunch of unwanted junk in your inbox.


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## Dark_Lightning

> My grand-daughter carved this flower with #5-12mm gouge & V-tool when she was nine years old:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Phil32


That's pretty nice! I can imagine what fun you had helping her with that. My 3 spawn haven't seen fit to provide me with grandchildren, sad to say. 8^/


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## Brit

> At least the grounding tools are Pfeil Kenny as they seem to be the most available at the moment.
> 
> - Brit
> 
> For the 3 Hares project, Pye recommends the 2a straight gouges at 3, 8 and 12 mm. And the 2a l/r pair of skews at 3mm. It seems redundant to me to have a straight and the skews all in the same size? At ~$40 a pop, I ain t about to just grab all 5  I can see the utility of the shortbent skews though.
> 
> Since you ve done the carving, if I were only going to buy two of those tools (bear in mind, I have no other shortbent gouges other than a couple palm tools in a 7 or 8 sweep in the 3/8" neighborhood) would a pair of the skews be your recommendation? And 3mm seems kinda small. Would 5mm be more generally useful?
> 
> - HokieKen


Sorry for the delay Ken, work is relentless at the moment. I bought all six that he recommends and used them all, but if you wanted to save a bit of money I think you could get by on the three hares carving with the 8mm and the 2a l/r. Make sure you practice using them on some scrap. The aim is to take really fine shavings to level the background using the high angle grip. It also helps if you know which way the grain is running so you don't tear out a chunk accidentally.


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## HokieKen

Thanks Andy. That's kinda the way I was leaning. Just couldn't decide whether the 3mm was a generally useful size. I think it probably is but, it looks like TFWW has the 3/16" 22 and 23 chisels (l/r skewed shortbent) in stock at the moment and the cost is pretty much the same as Pfeil. I'd prefer to have the Ashley Iles but wonder if I'd regret going with a slightly larger size? Decisions decisions….


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## Phil32

Keep in mind that carving gouges can be used in multiple ways. A fishtail can perform like a straight gouge, but also in ways similar to skews. You rarely use the full width of a gouge. The only reason to buy narrow tools is when you have to work in narrow spaces. I have left & right spoonbent #2 skews - never use them. Likewise I never use #1 gouges (chisels) except for stop cutting straight outlines.

It is easy to rationalize why you need fifty Pfeil gouges, but in practice you will use only those you can keep sharp!


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## Dark_Lightning

Lot of truth there; I haven't used the sweeps much. I use my Flexcut scorps to get into the tight spots. I worked as a mechanic for many years, and one really frustrating thing was not having the right tool at the time of need. That is what drove me to buy the Pfeil chisels in the sets.


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## HokieKen

I bought the Schaaf set but otherwise I've been piecing together a set one at a time as specific needs arise. So far I think I've only put 4 or 5 of the 12 Schaafs into service. But I imagine eventually they'll all get called up to active duty.

Yes Phil, I'll need to get into tight spaces and also tight spaces in enclosed recesses. So some small spoonbent skews seem to be the best solution. I intend to have a go at this pattern that Andy did:


That should give you an idea of the spots I'll be attempting to reach.


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## Phil32

This relief carving has a depth of 1/2" to 1" including some narrow slots between the rails. It was done without the use of any spoonbent gouges:


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## HokieKen

Well… there goes that theory.


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## Foghorn

> This relief carving has a depth of 1/2" to 1" including some narrow slots between the rails. It was done without the use of any spoonbent gouges:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Phil32


Very nice Phil!


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## Phil32

HokieKen - As you work with your new Schaaf tools you will discover the length and unique shapes allow you to cut in places you might not imagine. Remember the bevel for carving tools is on the underside - 20 deg. from flat. Focus on what each tool can do - and master that - rather than dreaming about tools to add to your collection.

It's really none of my business, but I want to save you and other carvers from making the mistake I made. I have over fifty Pfeil gouges. I even have the Brienz Collection in the beechwood box with my name engraved on a brass plate. As you can see among my projects (click that word under my Username), I have carved a few. There is no project that required more than six tools. Often less.


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## Foghorn

Not the carving tools of my dreams, although I have some that are in that realm. I have some palm chisels I bought many years ago from Michaels of all places before I got into much carving. They were on sale so it seemed like the right thing to do. Made in Wisconsin by Walnut Hollow. Great steel and really hold an edge. I still use them regularly for guitar making tasks.

A few years back, I saw a Walnut Hollow set on eBay for dirt cheap and advertised as made in USA. I jumped on it. When I got them, they were stamped "Made in China" and were blackened rather than polished steel and were ground very roughly and much cruder than my original set. I received a full refund and was told to keep them so I guess the price was right. It may be decent steel but I haven't bothered getting them into shape yet as I have the original, much higher quality set.

Here's the originals I still use.









And the rough Made in China set I received for free now. The picture on eBay was a closed box and couldn't see what they looked like. Just assumed as they were advertised as made in USA that they were the same. Not. I had to push two of the ferrules back into place for the pictures.


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## RWE

Phil: Based on your remarks above about not needing that many chisels per project, what do you think of this list.

6mm vtool (16 6 Pfeil), #3 6mm, #3 14 mm, #5 14 mm, #7 6 mm, #7 14 mm

I have probably 15 or 20 chisel Chisels, including some English tang chisels that I sharpened to 20 degrees for dovetail work, so I figure I could skate on a #1 gouge for a while.

I am hoping that this will work out to be a decent beginning set. On Amazon, there are $48-$50 subsets of the Schaff chisels that come in the larger collection. So I have the 4 gouge set coming and can add the others over time.

Anything that you see as far as a gap that would be the next tool to buy in this collection? I did look at your projects and I get the feeling that you have some experience. Nice work.


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## HokieKen

So this one's finally in the bag! Finished the Christmas present before Valentines Day at least


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## RWE

I like it but I might be reluctant to hang a coat on it, might be haunted or cursed. A bit menacing.

Fine work.


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## HokieKen

It's a key hanger, intended for his garage where it will live with Mr Harley and Mr Davidson ;-)


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## Foghorn

> It's a key hanger, intended for his garage where it will live with Mr Harley and Mr Davidson ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


Looks very cool for the purpose Ken.


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## RWE

Haunted keys then. My father always told me that you had to be tough to ride a motorcycle. After nearly killing myself 4 or 5 times, I tend to agree, but man they are fun.


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## RWE

I picked this little set of Henckels (Germany) of off Ebay when I first got interested in the notion of carving, probably a year or two back. I am slow to get going it seems.










64 knife

71-7 V chisel

74-8 double bevel chisel

77-6 gouge

I have not done a good job sharpening them, but may give a go again now that I am a bit caught up in this.

Now my question is this. What would they be good for? Each is about 7.5 inches long, except the knife. Would this be chosen for more delicate carving. Are they junk? I thought Henckels was a good brand as a knife company. I am not in love with them, but don't want to break their collective hearts and give up on them.

Should I be in love? Are they worthy of sharpening? What is the crazy number system. I understand now the sweep designator, but the double digit number is a mystery.

What would a serious knowledgeable carver use them for?


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## Phil32

> Phil: Based on your remarks above about not needing that many chisels per project, what do you think of this list.
> 
> 6mm vtool (16 6 Pfeil), #3 6mm, #3 14 mm, #5 14 mm, #7 6 mm, #7 14 mm
> 
> I have probably 15 or 20 chisel Chisels, including some English tang chisels that I sharpened to 20 degrees for dovetail work, so I figure I could skate on a #1 gouge for a while.
> 
> I am hoping that this will work out to be a decent beginning set. On Amazon, there are $48-$50 subsets of the Schaff chisels that come in the larger collection. So I have the 4 gouge set coming and can add the others over time.
> 
> Anything that you see as far as a gap that would be the next tool to buy in this collection? I did look at your projects and I get the feeling that you have some experience. Nice work.
> 
> - RWE


I think you've made a good list for a starting set. That #16 V-tool is the narrowest angle (35 deg) made. I have the 3mm version. The #3's are most used. You might also consider something in the #8, #9. or #11 - probably not over 7mm wide. I also think you will enjoy the four fishtail gouges from Schaaf. (They are not part of the 12-tool set). My wife bought a set for me and I found them quite comparable to the Pfeil fishtails I use a lot. But I soon loaned them to a young woman who asked my help in getting started with relief carving.

Phil (Pfeil)


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## Phil32

RWE - My parents gave me some Henckels and a knife almost identical to those in your photo. This was when I was still a teenager. I still have them, but prefer the full-size Pfeils.


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## RWE

Thanks for the feedback. There was a one or two day sale (local Woodcraft) on the Pfeil chisels, 25 or 35 percent off. Unfortunately the most commonly used ones were gone. A friend picked the 16/6 and 5/14 gouge that I have as the best choices of what they had left.

I was not "getting" the v-chisel. It would not seem to cut as deep as what I would see on videos. So the narrow angle was probably the deal.

Good info, thanks.


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## HokieKen

Just saw this review (if you want to call it that) of Schaaf tools from Lara Irish. First time I've seen them mentioned by a well-known carver. I have no idea what her policies are on endorsing tools but she clearly states that the tools were given to her so take it with a grain of salt…


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## RWE

Not that I don't trust you Hokie, but I did some research on Schaaf after your endorsement. Ran across this fellow

Schaaf tools endorsement

It is a bit long winded, but he came out strongly endorsing the tools. I think he only had around 200 or 300 chisels and had been carving for 50 or 60 years. (working from memory, but if you watch, he will tell you)

He also has one on sharpening with the Schaaf diamond plate, so he may be compromised. I don't think so, but in any event, Schaaf is getting good reviews.


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## HokieKen

I wouldn't expect anyone to make such a purchase based on my recommendation RWE ;-)


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## RWE

Actually I did purchase based on your recommendation, then researched to see if I had jumped the gun. So you sir are a highly esteemed internet influencer, a veritable Kardasian, just not as pretty to look at.


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## Lazyman

I'll bet he just as much junk in the trunk.


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## RWE

I am sorry, but that could have remained unsaid. Not a pretty picture in my mind. LOL


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## drsurfrat

As a friend used to say: "Don't visualize, Dooon't visualize"


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## Lazyman

Just a little negative reinforcement. I just didn't want for you to get distracted thinking about the Kardasians and hurt your self with something sharp.


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## RWE

Actually, I think Hokie should take this as inspiration and use Kim's contours as his next carving subject. The biggest question is what sweep/gouge would work best. He would just have to keep the project hidden from the missus.


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## Lazyman

Just ask the missus to model for it and she'll never suspect a thing.


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## HokieKen

I would make a comment about using a hard wood crotch for the piece. But I'm above that.


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## Lazyman

Probably just some punky spalted wood.


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## MikeB_UK

Kenny - Damn fine job
Phil - that Escher carving is just showing off, awsome :0


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## Phil32

> . . . but in any event, Schaaf is getting good reviews.
> 
> - RWE


I also gave a first-hand assessment at this site:

https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/woodcarving-tools-technology-sharpening/1150817-review-of-schaaf-carving-tools/page4#post1181418


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## controlfreak

I am begging to think the 12 pc Schaaf set will be a good starter set. I think it is $120 with the mallet.


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## HokieKen

I'll add this CF and RWE, if you go to Schaaf's website instead of Amazon, they sell the same chisel sets but already hand sharpened.

I hesitate to point that out to folks because IMO, the first thing to do is learn to shape and sharpen your tools. IMO, the bevels on the Schaafs are too steep so even if they were razor sharp out of the box, the first thing I would have done was take them to the grinder.

But, if you want tools that come ready to cut, the option is there. You have to pay a premium for it and I feel like you're going to end up re-shaping them anyway.


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## RWE

I don't get my new Schaaf gouges till the end of the month, birthday present from my kids.

From all of this good info here it would seem that I need to check the bevel angles, grind them to 20-22.5 degrees and then refine the edges. I have one of those bevel angle checker things.

I turn a bit and have an 8 inch slow speed Rikon grinder with the white wheels, one of which is very fine. I have the Wolverine jig as well. I don't have a Worksharp or any of those water bath high end grinders. Seems to me that if I use a felt tip mark and grind those gouges very lightly and carefully to work the bevel down but always avoiding the edge, that would work.

*A Wolverine jig and a careful touch might work. Any thoughts. Anyone use a Wolverine jig or similar for carving gouges?* Always trying to get my act together and not be too dumb. it is a full time job.


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## Brit

*RWE* - Here's the thing. Commissioning carving tools is somewhat different to commissioning bench chisels or turning tools. Why because you definitely DO NOT want a concave external bevel on your tools. The only way you could use a grinding wheel to sharpen the external bevel on a carving gouge is to hold the tool perpendicular to the outside face of the wheel (in other words approach the wheel from the side) and rotate the tool to ensure you are removing metal from the entire heel of the bevel. A linisher (belt grinder) is far more useful for shaping the external bevel because you can hold the tool in the same plane as the belt or perpendicular to it.

As far as the angle of the external bevel is concerned, most carving tools come from the factory with an angle that is too steep for carving. Now you might ask why that is. I believe it is because the ideal bevel angle for each tool is different for different people and they provide them too steep so you can adjust them to suit you. After all, you can't put metal back can you. My advice would be not to start measuring the bevel with an angle gauge, but rather to adjust the bevel until you can carve comfortably with it.

There are fundamentally two types of grip when it comes to holding carving tools; the high-angle grip and the low-angle grip and most carving tools can be used with either grip to perform different tasks. When you are commissioning a new tool, you generally adjust the angle of the external bevel until it works best for you when you hold it using the low-angle grip. With the low angle grip, one hand wraps around the handle with the blade coming out between your first finger and thumb and the other hand wraps around the area where the ferrule is. With the low angle grip, the heel of the hand nearest the cutting edge rests gently on the surface of the wood to support and steer the tool and the hand holding the handle pushes the tool through the cut. This is much easier to demonstrate than it is to describe, but you want to adjust the external bevel angle so that the cutting edge starts cutting when the heel of the hand nearest the cutting edge is gently resting on the surface of the wood. If the external bevel angle is too steep, that hand has to bend back at the wrist in order for the tool to cut and that will cause fatigue.

I have taken the trouble to add the word 'external' before the word bevel in the above text, because most carvers also add a tiny internal bevel at a very low angle to their *straight* gouges, as this enables you to use the tool upside down as well, meaning you can carve concave and convex surfaces with the same tool and get more bang for you buck. Bent tools do not generally have an inside bevel.

Lastly, the external bevel angle will also be influenced by the type and size of tool and the kind of work you intend to do with it. For example, you wouldn't generally use smaller width straight gouges with a carving mallet (maybe light taps with a dummy mallet), whereas a 1" straight gouge probably would be used with a carving mallet. That being the case, you might opt for a slightly steeper external bevel angle to give you a stronger cutting edge.

These are my thoughts on the subject. Everyone is different and some people might disagree with me and that's fine. In the end, you will find what works for you, I just didn't want you to ruin your tools before you've even started. )


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## RWE

Brit: Many thanks for the content filled reply. I get your point. As it just turned out, I just finished putting a very flat 20 degree bevel on some "English" chisels. I may post on the chisels thread about them and see if you have any insight on some of the makers. It is a set that goes from 1/8 to 1 inch, all different makers.

On those, I had a lot of steel to remove (25 degrees to 20 degrees), so for chisels I have adopted a mini grinder. At a yard sale I found a "drill bit sharpener". The cover is removable and inside is a little 1.5 or 2 inch diameter wheel, very fine, and not very powerful. However I could use it to ease the bevel down. You would see the rows of marks where it cut. Then to the diamonds and flatten again, and again, and again. Rinse and repeat. Anyway, I incrementally got them down and flat across the bevel or at least the last two thirds of the wider ones.

With the carving chisels I see what you mean. The whole bottom bevel needs to be flat with no concave hollow ground relief grind.

I have a decent reciprocating bench belt sander, but one of those long narrow belt sanders (your linisher?) might be the best option I guess.

Trouble is, I have completed one simple poorly executed carving so far. Until I get immersed a bit more, don't want any more major purchases.

I will promise not to destroy the fishtails when I get them and see if I can do a decent carving or two. May spring for a linisher at that point.

I don't think I want to try to sideways grind on a grinder or even my drill sharpener, so the sanding and manual technique will have to do.

I seem to spend more time studying how to do than doing, but I have seen many YouTube videos on how to hold the chisel, so that should not be the issue. If the angle of cut is wrong refine the bevel until you are fully "commissioned". I like the ring of that: "*Commissioned*". Has an air of seriousness to it and sharpening is certainly serious.

Thanks.


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## HokieKen

Seek out Chris Pye's information on commissioning gouges RWE. He goes to great lengths to go through each step of the process using just bench stones and also using a powered grinder. I'll second everything Andy said. I'll add though, that if you need to lower the bevel angle significantly (which you most likely will) you can remove the bulk of the steel using a hollow grinder on a bench grinder and then do the final shaping and flattening on bench stones.

I use my Worksharp with a Tormek type bar and jig. A Wolverine type jig won't work well because the sweep profiles vary with different gouges. So it's a little different than sharpening turning gouges. A belt grinder would be ideal like Andy said. But the side of a grinder wheel will work too. Just be very careful not to let it get hot enough to wreck the temper at the edge.


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## Brit

Yeah, I didn't mention using the side of the wheel because strictly speaking it isn't recommended even though we've all done it.


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## RWE

That influencer is back.

I was supposed to get the Pye book today (USPS failed again). Based on your recommendation I ordered it. I have been going through the Chris Pye slide presentation on V chisels that you linked. Also got the Flexcut SlipStrop Kit that you recommended. This relationship is a lot like dating Kim, getting expensive.

I will check his videos on gouges. I like his teaching methods so far.

Seriously, thanks for all the help.


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## Brit

Well if you like Chris Pye's teaching style (and I agree it is very good), he is offering a 30% discount for new members for the first 3 months.

https://www.woodcarvingworkshops.tv/


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## HokieKen

The second chapter in that book deals with commissioning tools. Between that and the paper on v-tools, you should have all you need


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## HokieKen

Dangit Andy. I was gonna sign up but it costs 24 euros. I only have dollars :-(


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## Phil32

Thanks Brit, for the thorough discussion of commissioning the bevels on new gouges. I find I can do all the modifying I need with just sandpaper, stones, & honing compound on cardboard. My grinder is never used on carving tools.


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## Brit

Kenny when you consider he is a world-renowned carver and the price his pieces fetch (£1400 for a couple of bookends, £5200 for a live edge table) and his extensive experience and knowledge of carving, I'm amazed that membership is so cheap really. I think it is incredible value for money. He has certainly made carving very accessible for me.


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## bobnann

Being a novice carver I'm always making mistakes. I just don't point them out to others. Then it's considered artistic license, freedom of expression!


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## controlfreak

I received Chris Pye's book yesterday. Now I just need to read it.


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## HokieKen

I agree Andy, and I'm seriously considering joining his site. I just don't have time to watch videos and feel like I won't use it much. But for the current price, I might give it a go anyway!


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## RWE

Tracking says my copy will be here today. Now I just need to time warp to my birthday later this month so I can get some new chisels to work with. My choice on the chisels was to go ahead and buy them and try to stealth them in past the wife or do the right thing and tell my kids to get them for my birthday. Now i am in limbo for doing the right thing.

So I guess I will have to be content to read the chapter on commissioning while I wait. Probably not a bad situation.


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## HokieKen

I can't necessarily recommend Sculpture House carving tools as I have never had my hands on one in my life. But, I know they're 1095 steel hardened and tempered to 59-62 Rc and that's enough for me to take a chance on a couple of NOS ones at mountainwoodcarvers. Like I said, I'm not endorsing these tools as being good. But, there's a really good selection at fantastic prices. So I picked up a couple. Just wanted to share in case anyone is looking for something in particular…


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## Phil32

Interesting! It may be the "way to go" for carvers who know how to "commission" their tools. The prices listed for individual tools are probably the forged blanks in their roughest form.


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## HokieKen

Yes Phil, it says in the description that the tools are hand-forged and have a factory-ground edge but come unsharpened.


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## RWE

Phil: I was searching the mountainwoodcarvers site earlier for another v-tool. I have the Pfiel (never can remember how to spell that) 16/6. It seems you cannot buy the Schaaf tools individually, only in sets. What would you or others recommend for a second v-tool, 90 degrees or 60 degrees. If you see a good candidate at a discounted rate on mountainwoodcarves post back the specs/id on it.


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## HokieKen

I have a 45 degree, 5/8" v-tool and a 60 degree 3/8" v-tool RWE. IMO, the 60 degree is more generally versatile and works best for outlining subjects. I think the 3/8" is also right in the sweet spot. You want it large enough that you can make a fairly deep cut but small enough that you can push it through the cut, and control it well, without too much resistance. The 45 degree tool has its uses as well but it don't use it very often at all compared to the 60 degree one. I don't have a 90 degree tool but it strikes me as having very limited use.

I don't see any on the sale page at mountain woodcarvers. The 70 degree may be a good choice but the smallest size it's available in is 16mm which is a little large for my taste.


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## Phil32

Some months ago I compiled info on what V-tools are available from various manufacturers. The most common are the 60 deg. (#12). For palm & intermediate tools it is often the only one offered. Pfeil also makes 90's (#13) in ten widths, 45's (#15) in two widths, and 35's (#16) in two. They also make a 55 deg. (#14) V-tool with a rounded apex in six widths. I don't personally own a 90 deg. tool. I would probably carve a 90 deg. shape with a skew or other gouge. I used a #15- 3mm quite a bit on a recent relief (Escher's "Day & Night") for cutting lines.


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## Phil32

Talking about V-tools, this is the Escher design I am considering for my next carving project:










It looks like it would be ideal for using a V-tool, or several.


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## HokieKen

Wow, that's ambitious Phil. I've no doubt you'll do it well just like the others you've done!


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## MikeB_UK

> Talking about V-tools, this is the Escher design I am considering for my next carving project:
> 
> - Phil32





> Wow, that s ambitious Phil. I ve no doubt you ll do it well just like the others you ve done!
> 
> - HokieKen


For Phil, ambitious is *House of Stairs*, *Drawing Hands* if he wants to stretch himself.

For contrast I've carved a spoon, well, sort of a spoon, possibly a fork. might be a penguin.


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## Phil32

> For Phil, ambitious is *House of Stairs*, *Drawing Hands* if he wants to stretch himself.
> 
> - MikeB_UK


I've already done those MikeB. they're described in my Projects:


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## MikeB_UK

> I ve already done those MikeB. they re described in my Projects:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> - Phil32


Nice touch swapping the pencils for carving tools.


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## Dark_Lightning

Indeed. I thought that was pretty clever, myself.


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## HokieKen

Let the next round of fun and frustration begin…


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## Karda

are you going to be chaing them down the hole. That is going to be a nice carving


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## HokieKen

I'm shooting for anything remotely resembling this Karda:


I have a feeling I'll have a chain of attempts over the next decade or so before I get one I'm happy with. So yeah, I'm going down a rabbit rabbit hole…


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## Brit

You got this Kenny. Just a walk in the park.


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## RWE

Kenny, Brit:

After a lot of YouTube watching and thinking and reading the first half of the Chris Pye book, I commissioned my little set of Henckel tools as an experiment. The Henckel vtool and gouge would not cut into a stick of butter when I started and now they are both serviceable, dare I say "commissioned". I actually like the little vtool.









So having done that, I ordered the Beginners Set of the Schaaf chisels to go with the Fishtail Gouges that I get for my birthday. I will not be lacking in profiles now. So I am all in. I will be sharpening and commissioning tools for the rest of the month and then doing more beginner projects.

Mary May has a symmetrical rosette that I am going to try and then evolve (hopefully) from there.

Thanks to everyone for the good information here.


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## HokieKen

Yep. A walk in the park. Naked in the dark in the February rain maybe. ;-P Good news is, my board is thick enough that I can flip it over and get two shots without buying any more wood


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## HokieKen

That's great RWE  Once you get a couple of tools commissioned and get the hang of what you're going for, it gets a lot less time consuming. I would recommend running through the projects in that book. They are well chosen to teach specific things and do it in a way that you have a result to look at when you're done rather than just a scrap board with a bunch of practice cuts. (Don't get me wrong, practice cuts on a scrap board are useful too…) One of the first projects is the ox IIRC. It's very good for learning to use your v-tools and veiners to do detail work. Enjoy the journey!


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## HokieKen

Also, if you can get a v-tool commissioned, you're 90% there. They are by far the hardest to shape and sharpen IMO…


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## Phil32

RWE - I had mentioned that I have a nearly identical set of Henckels. Here it is:










You'll notice the gouges have a ferrule in addition to the shank bolster. The knife is marked "Woodcraft," but I believe Henckel made similar knives for various marks, including Pfeil and Woodcraft. I have had these since the early 70's.


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## Karda

you can do it Ken try something cheap first, matbe even make a block of wax, practice on what you can throw away


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## RWE

Phil: 
Yes they do look identical. I got the notion to try carving several years back and picked up my Henckels on Ebay. They looked bigger on Ebay, but after sharpening them the work well, just not with a two handed grip like all the experts teach. I guess they were meant for a different purpose, more detailed work perhaps.

*I wanted run this past the experts here. About sharpening/commissioning:*

Pye and Mary May talk about what is in essence a secondary bevel 5 to 10 degrees on the inside edge face of gouges. Pye says get that defined first, then sharpen the outside face bevel and chase away the white line as he terms it. Pye calls it the Inside Bevel (page 26 in his book). May talks about trying to use a gouge upside down to round over domes and states that having the inside bevel makes that doable.

As a chisel and plane iron fellow, that sounds like the worst thing you can do. I am all about full bevels and flattening the back on regular chisels and plane irons. This is like maybe the ruler trick on plane irons where you cheat to get a uniform leading edge.

But I get it. So do all of you folks that have carved a while use the "*Inside Bevel*" on gouges.

I have the Flexcut stropping block with the different profiles coming in today, and I also got a whetstone with profiles, so I don't think it will be as hard to accomplish this as i used to. Just wondering what the norm is for folks that have been doing this awhile.


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## HokieKen

RWE, I think like you… an internal bevel weakens the edge so bad idea! But, I have found that I can put a tiny bevel, more like 1-2 degrees pretty easily and that allows me to use it for shallow cuts but is easier to shape and maintain than a longer bevel. This is from a virtually new carver though so take it for what it's worth. Mr. Pye and Mrs. May both recommend a defined internal bevel so there is definitely something to it. I figure I can add one at any time so all it will cost me is some elbow grease to reshape the external bevel when I do.


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## Phil32

I do not make any effort to create an internal bevel on carving gouges. If I use a slip stone on the inside, it is kept flat to the inside surface. It does not affect using the gouge inverted on a convex shape.


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## Brit

I put a very slight internal bevel on my straight gouges only.

@Kenny - How does adding an internal bevel weaken the edge?. In my opinion it strengthens it.


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## RWE

Well thanks. Now I am really confused. I think I will take the Brit approach to start with and only work the internal bevel on the straight gouges when I do my first sharpening. I have a good slipstone and the new whetstone and strop deals with the profiles, so I will hit the regular gouges a bit. Seems wrong to mess with a fishtail, too pretty.


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## HokieKen

> I put a very slight internal bevel on my straight gouges only.
> 
> @Kenny - How does adding an internal bevel weaken the edge?. In my opinion it strengthens it.
> 
> - Brit


I guess you're right Andy, now that I think about it. My knee-jerk reasoning is that you're leaving less steel to back up the cutting edge. But I guess you're actually strengthening it by putting a bevel on the back side and increasing the included angle.

Still sticking with what I have on the gouges I already have because I don't relish the idea of regrinding them. But maybe I'll try a little more internal bevel on ones I get in the future. Not that I'm likely to buy any more. We all know that we have all the tools we need and probably won't want any additional ones.


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## Dark_Lightning

> I do not make any effort to create an internal bevel on carving gouges. If I use a slip stone on the inside, it is kept flat to the inside surface. It does not affect using the gouge inverted on a convex shape.
> 
> - Phil32


Right. You just have to pay attention to the grain direction so that you don't lever up a chunk.


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## Karda

not being a carver, but I am a wood turner and this discussion is familiar, sound like the which is the best bevel angle for a bowl gouge. The right answer is they all are, it depends on the individual and the kind of work they do. Ken do you have and old gouge, one you don't use and won't miss. Put an internal bevel on that gouge then carve and see how it works. That way you won't have to regrind a good gouge. The right answer her is the same depends on the individual.


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## RWE

I turn and most of the issues with turning bowl gouges seem to revolve around how you were going to use it. You would relieve the outer edge if you were going to go deep in a bowl so as not to catch an edge. You would keep a more 90 degree sweep to the edge if you were using it on a more shallow cut, or on the sides where catches are not as likely. (This is an explanation that I could do better if I turned a bowl beforehand, memory is not as good as it used to be).

What Pye stated in his book (page 26) is that you will want to flip the gouge and it will work better when flipped if you do the inside bevel.

"The flatter the gouge (ie: the lower the number) and the more it will be used upside down, the longer the inner bevel."

I am going go be commissioning about 16 new chisels soon. So I wanted to see how the experts here felt about this notion. *I did not want to go crazy chasing some ideal that no one other than the noted carver Mr. Pye pursued. The whole notion is offensive, but I can see the merit in what he says.* So I am going to pick a couple of straight, low number gouges and give it a try.

Pye acknowledges that many carvers don't use the inner bevel, but seems to assert that it is superior. I guess I will find out soon enough. I figure I will go light and work up to more inner bevel if I like it. As a newbie, it will take me a while to develop enough experience to judge the issue.

But is is a fun discussion.


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## Karda

what i was trying to point out is that the situation is the same I was not trying to compare wood turning gouges with carving gouges, to do that would Ludacris.


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## RWE

I understood your point. Did not mean to appear to dispute it.

It seems that Pye is saying (albeit from a lot of experience) that the inside bevel was all that and once you are as experienced as he is, you would get it and would not want to not have the inside bevel.

It is like the sharpening method to end all sharpening methods for shallow gouges. One Ring to Rule them all, my way or the highway sort of thing.

Whereas the sharpening style in bowl gouges has variety for practical reasons.

In mulling this over, I would not even know if the method was superior (newbie) till I had more time carving, so I am probably just going to go very lightly on one gouge and give it some time. Why knock yourself out for something that you are not experienced enough to appreciate.

Also, the experts here are not strong on the idea. Just light inner bevel seems the consensus.


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## Brit




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## Phil32

As a general rule I would suggest not using advanced carving techniques until your skills are advanced. Just because Chris Pye mentions it in his book is not reason to adopt the practice.


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## HokieKen

This is my main flat gouge for falttening big areas. I was unhappy with the bevel angle during my last project. So I figured while I was correcting that, may as well put a bevel on the inside. That's about a 5 degree bevel there. Not sure how long to make it so it's easily maintained so I'm leaving it like so for the time being.


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## HokieKen

If anyone happens to have a Worksharp with the bar attachment (which was discontinued a couple of years ago), this Tormek small tool jig makes shaping gouges about as simple as it can be. And because tge jig straddles the bar, your rotating the tool with the exact curvature of the particilar sweep 









And yes, I know a lot of people can do the same thing free handed on a piece of brick in their pocket during a sermon in church. I don't go to church so I need all the help I can get.


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## RWE

Hokie: I figure you will figure out how to maintain that secondary. Looks nice. Put up your impressions when using it. I started watching Pye's hare carving video today. Chisels delayed once again by USPS.

* You posted your worksharp post as I was writing this. Great minds. I watched a fellow on Youtube use that jig you show.*

*Anybody use power tools to work the bevels on gouges and chisels*. (There are some on YouTube that do) I have the DMT Duosharp Diamonds in 4 grits, profiled whetstone, profiled strop/compound, regular strop etc. So I can do the hand method. Just want to know if anyone does the initial shaping with power, before refining.

I don't want to spring for a Worksharp or any of those higher end wet grinders. But I had thought of the narrow belt sander with a very fine grit as something that you utilize with care for reducing a bevel before finishing it with hand work. Most of the Harbor Freight tools are pretty pitiful, but I could spring for one of their narrow belt sanders.

There are a lot of similar handheld (some use air) narrow belt sanders that are on the market. I think I could present the tools to the belt on a stationary sander better than I could present a hand held belt sander to the tool. But I could be convinced otherwise if someone uses one and likes the results. (as a matter of fact, I could lock a handheld narrow belt sander into a vice and probably change angles ???)

So, cast your vote.

*Hand sharpening only. I know most say use the strop and compound for maintenance

Stationary Belt Sander would work, narrow belt, fine grit, for first time setup, then hand sharpening

Hand held power narrow belt sander would work, fine grit*

I am about to run out of questions, so hopefully I will fade into the background soon, but there are so many questions when you start out. I hope my carvers club gets started back soon.


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## Dark_Lightning

> If anyone happens to have a Worksharp with the bar attachment (which was discontinued a couple of years ago), this Tormek small tool jig makes shaping gouges about as simple as it can be. And because tge jig straddles the bar, your rotating the tool with the exact curvature of the particilar sweep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I know a lot of people can do the same thing free handed on a piece of brick in their pocket during a sermon in church. I don't go to church so I need all the help I can get.
> 
> - HokieKen


I have a WorkSharp 3000 that I hone my carving tools on (and sharpen the bench chisels). It has a piece of cereal box cardboard loaded with Flexcut gold compound. I don't let them get too dull, so it's a matter of a few seconds to hone them. That's for at home; when I'm at the carving class/club and a tool needs a touch-up, I use the Flexcut gizmo.


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## HokieKen

No go on the stationary belt sander RWE. They run too fast and the short belts get clogged too fast and burn too much. I have a ton of experience using them to deburr machined parts and can say without hesitation that they are a terrible idea for sharpening.

A 1×30 is the minumum size belt I would use. I used that Rikon for years to make and sharpen a lot of tools and knives.









I went through a metric buttload of belts on it but it did the job well. Not fast and not easy but well. Since I got seriius and built a belt grinder about 2 years ago, that guy hasn't been of the wall where you see it. If shipping isn't outrageous, I'd make you a deal better than Harbor Freight. Although honestly, it's probably the same machine with different branding.

My honest opinion though is stick with your diamonds if you're comfortable doing the work manually.
If you had to go to the stones every time the tool got dull, I'd advise another route. But, you only have to do the heavy lifting once unless you drop it or want to adjust something. So I probably wouldn't spend any money just for carving tools.

Although the 1×30 does a good job on knives with a very fine belt and the platen backed off to let it run slack. So if that's of interest, do that one ;-)


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## HokieKen

Steven, I LOVE my Worksharp. But not for honing for some reason. I've never tried honing carving tools but for chisels and plane blades, I tried a leather wheel but just couldn't get as good as soing it by hand for some reason.


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## Karda

do you have a wood lathe wood lathes are quite a lot slower that grinders, i saw a utube one time a guy did about is set up on the lathe for sharpening knives. it would work I bet


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## Foghorn

> If anyone happens to have a Worksharp with the bar attachment (which was discontinued a couple of years ago), this Tormek small tool jig makes shaping gouges about as simple as it can be. And because tge jig straddles the bar, your rotating the tool with the exact curvature of the particilar sweep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I know a lot of people can do the same thing free handed on a piece of brick in their pocket during a sermon in church. I don't go to church so I need all the help I can get.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> I have a WorkSharp 3000 that I hone my carving tools on (and sharpen the bench chisels). It has a piece of cereal box cardboard loaded with Flexcut gold compound. I don t let them get too dull, so it s a matter of a few seconds to hone them. That s for at home; when I m at the carving class/club and a tool needs a touch-up, I use the Flexcut gizmo.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


Looks similar to my Veritas power sharpener. Super easy to sharpen and to do secondary micro bevels. Makes most sharpening of plane blades and chisels very quick and accurate. My final plate is thin cotton on the plate (from an old work shirt minus the tie) with some green compound. Beyond shaving!


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## RWE

I have a lathe and I put a set of three buffing wheels on it to polish plane irons and chisels. I got the bar and wheels from Penn State Industries. The shop is over crowded, have the Rikkon slow speed grinder for lathe tools, Wolverine jig and so on, but no room for a dedicated buffing setup.

But I suppose you could create a disk that you could put on the lathe and spin it and get good results, particularly if you do a surface with strop compound and not sandpaper.

I might look into that. No extra space needed.


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## Phil32

The only time I have used power was reshaping a Pfeil #9-7mm. While doing a vertical, mallet assisted cut in hardwood I broke out an 1/8" chip from the cutting edge. I used a slow speed bench grinder to square off the end, then form the bevel. I finished the bevel and sharpening with sandpapers and cardboard w/compound,


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## Karda

I have a wheel on my lathe I put a piece of PSA sandpaper I use it like a disc sander. it wouldn't take to much to make a tool rest to put on the rails gota look into that. If you make the wheel 1" thick you can put sandpaper on the edge as well I did that with my old grinder


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## RWE

Karda:

I had looked into this many years back, but after your post, I checked back and decided to order it.
" 
"Penn State Industries "Chisel Mate https://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCMPLUS.html

I will use the aluminum plate to either attach PSA paper or mount a wide board on it like you suggested. I like the idea of having a wheel for buffing compound.

I get a nice mirror polish using the buffing wheels on my plane irons so I figure why not make a wheel and coat it with compound for sharpening.


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## Karda

that is a great idea, very versatile let us know how it works out


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## Brit

RWE - I'm essentially a hand tool woodworker because personally, I get more enjoyment out of developing hand tool skills and achieving good results with hand tools than I do out of finishing a project. I don't care how long something might take me to do since I'm not trying to make my living from it. This is just as well because my workshop is only 9ft x 9ft and there is little room for machinery anyway. That said though, we all know how long it takes to commission a new tool or restore a vintage tool if you're doing everything by hand, so a few years ago I did buy a Robert Sorby Pro Edge system which I use just to get the initial bevel angles on my tools. It works well for this purpose and is an extremely well-built machine. Once I have the angle more or less where I want it, I finish sharpening/honing my tools by hand.


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## Brit

"I know a lot of people can do the same thing free handed on a piece of brick in their pocket during a sermon in church."

Kenny - That is hilarious and a tagline worthy quote if ever I heard one. As we sometimes say this side of the pond, "You're as mad as a bag of badgers.". Don't ever change that about yourself.


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## HokieKen

> Looks similar to my Veritas power sharpener. Super easy to sharpen and to do secondary micro bevels. Makes most sharpening of plane blades and chisels very quick and accurate. My final plate is thin cotton on the plate (from an old work shirt minus the tie) with some green compound. Beyond shaving!
> 
> - Foghorn


I've seen the Veritas and it's the same basic machine I think. A slow speed, dry grinder that gives you a flat surface. I probably would have never bought one but the Worksharp popped up on Craigslist one day with every attachment made for the thing, a bunch of extra glass platens and a box of extra abrasives for ~$80 so I figured "what the hell". I sorta figured I'd hate it, flip it, and use the money I made to buy something else. Boy, was I wrong! I consider that thing an absolute necessity in my shop now.



> ...That said though, we all know how long it takes to commission a new tool or restore a vintage tool if you re doing everything by hand, so a few years ago I did buy a Robert Sorby Pro Edge system which I use just to get the initial bevel angles on my tools. It works well for this purpose and is an extremely well-built machine. Once I have the angle more or less where I want it, I finish sharpening/honing my tools by hand.
> 
> 
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> - Brit


That's on my long-term wish list Andy. Probably the best designed power sharpener on the market and exceptionally versatile. The price tag is just a bit much to swallow for me. It would save me some shop space though because I think it could easily replace my bench grinder and Wolverine setup as well as my Worksharp. Hmmm. Might have to give it some more thought actually…

I do also have my 2×72 belt grinder that is VS and reversible. Maybe I should just start working on designing and making some attachments for it…

- Kenny (aka Bag O' Badgers)


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## RWE

Brit: That is a fine looking sharpener. I use the Veritas MK11 jig on my plane irons and chisels, on Diamonds. If I had a Sorby, I could throw that away. I will research one for the heck of it, but I am hoping the lathe add-on disk will give me a Worksharp equivalent surface that will be useful.

You may be the only individual I have heard mention that they have a smaller shop than I do. My shop is about 12 by 14 and packed to the max. I have all the power tools, recently created my first flip top tool stand and may do another. Like you, I have decided to pursue more hand tool work, but sometimes the time element pushes me to use the power equipment. Commissioning gouges may be one of those times.

My shop has one great virtue. Here in the Southeastern US, it has air conditioning and heating. The house I bought has a "sun room" addition and my shop is the basement of the sun room, so I have vents from that. All my woodworking friends are jealous. Fighting the heat and the cold in a shop can be a challenge here, but mostly the heat.


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## Lazyman

I too have a Sorby Proedge that I bought last year when Rockler had them about $100 off. I really prefer using a belt for sharpening my turning tools. When I first started turning I made a belt sander specifically so that I could mimic the Proedge because of the price tag. The Proedge works better overall than my DIY version but I wish that I could slow it down. I got used to a slower belt speed on my DIY belt sander. I just used the proedge for the first time for sharpening a plane iron when I rehabed a vnitage hand plane iron that had a really badly mangled bevel on it. I was really impressed how quickly I got the bevel corrected. It was razor sharp and needed no additional work (other than flattening the back) to take .0001 thick shavings.


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## Brit

I think you should keep your Worksharp Kenny. I would have bought one of those, but you can't buy them in Europe anymore for some reason and the shipping from the US is awful.


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## Lazyman

Oh he'll never get rid of his Worksharp. I am pretty sure that he has it in his will to be buried with it when he dies… along with his Hovarter leg vise.


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## HokieKen

Yeah right. Like I'm ever gonna die.


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## Brit

True. You wear a cape, so you must be immortal.


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## HokieKen

I do love my Worksharp Andy. And will be keeping it for the foreseeable future at a minimum. I do think a belt is a much better design than a rotating disk like the Worksharp. You can get some really uneven heating and it's somewhat limiting on the size of tools you can do. But, it's a boss for what it is. And it's definitely superior to a radial method like a grinder wheel for anything where a hollow grind isn't desireable.

Damn Pfeil tools I ordered from Woodcraft are on back order and the short bent gouges from Mountain Woodcarver's were supposed to be here yesterday but are "in transit to next facility, arriving later than expected" according to USPS. I usually sing the praises of our postal service but they seem to still be functioning like it's December 23…


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## RWE

My new Schaaf tools were supposed to get here yesterday when the Missus was away. Now she is here and they are arriving any minute. Never know when you will get caught. USPS is making my life miserable right now.

On the sharpening front, I am giving major consideration to a CBN wheel on my Rikkon slow speed grinder (Woodcraft special). You have to strip off the cover, at least on one side and mount the wheel. This web site called woodturnerswonders offers a better selection than Amazon and other sources.

So the thought is to add a shop made wheel to my Penn State Industries lathe mounted 3 wheel buffing system, 1.5 inches wide or so. Use it for rougher work. Then get the 350 grit CBN wheel which is also 1.5 inches wide, and includes a side about 1 inch wide for refinement. Will work for lathe tools, bench chisels etc. on the wheel, and on the side for carving tools.

That is the plan. There is no other plan. (right)


----------



## HokieKen

I'm not sure how much use the CBN wheel will be specifically for carving tools RWE but I think it's a sound investment for turning tools regardless. I've been on the fence about CBN wheels for my grinder and my Worksharp for years but never pulled the trigger. I get good results with my white grinder wheels and sandpaper on my WS so I'm hesitant to try anything new. Especially with a fairly hefty price tag…

And FWIW, the first thing I do to a bench grinder is strip the stupid guards off the ends. I find them a PITA and unbelievably unsafe. If I accidentally lay my finger against a running wheel on my grinder with no guards, it may hurt and may bleed but it'll be over in a second. On the other hand if I had a stupid guard on there and the wheel happened to pull my finger in and wedge it against the inside of the guard, I'm stuck standing there until it grinds enough meat off my finger that I can pull it back out. Take those things off there regardless of whether or not you buy the CBN wheel. Plus, with them gone, you can work from behind the grinder and have the wheel rotation away from you.


----------



## RWE

Your point is well taken. However you speak from a position of strength, having a Worksharp. You are up on a different plateau from where I stand. I do not like my white wheels much any more. Outside of lathe tools sharpening I don't use them. I figure the CBN wheel would give me choices for plane irons, bench chisels, lathe tools and using the side for some of the carving tools (1 inch side side surface, which seems to only be available from woodturnerswonders) that I would get more bang for the buck. I have the Wolverine system already. Plus in my shop, space is an issue. I am not decided yet, but highly inclined to try them.

I was called to lunch by the Missus. Decided to take out the trash from the kitchen (I am gifted at that task, probably my best talent), when low and behold the USPS shows up with my Schaaf set while I am outside, no knock on the door to announce my violation of the the rules. What luck.


----------



## HokieKen

Best of luck my friend but, rest assured, she knows. They always know…


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## Brit

Kenny speaks the truth. The RECKONING cometh as sure as night follows day.


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## RWE

Kenny wears a cape and is probably married to Wonder Woman. I don't think he worries. For my part, my wife has walked into my shop with brand new large power tools in prominent display (new drill press) and she never notices. Everything in the shop looks the same to her. I am safe. I just need to keep that nagging guilt ridden voice in my head quiet. Thankfully I am very talented in that regard, rarely hear it. Selective hearing I guess.


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## Phil32

RWE - Hope you find the Schaaf fishtail gouges as nice as the set I bought.


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## RWE

I will not get them until the end of the month. I stealthed the beginners set of 12 into the shop today. I figured I had gotten addicted so I might as well take the plunge and get enough sweeps to tackle most projects. The weird thing is that I could not find a separate V-Chisel except by buying one from WoodCraft, which would have been half the cost of the beginners Schaaf set, so that decided to just go ahead and do the purchase. My kids are buying the fishtails for me. Schaaf needs to offer individual tools, but so far, only sets or partial sets.

Mary May convinced me that the fishtails were the thing to have. Your endorsement added to that assessment.


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## HokieKen

> Kenny wears a cape and is probably married to Wonder Woman. I don t think he worries. ...
> 
> - RWE


I've learned that if I explain, in excruciating detail, what each tool I buy is and what I will use it for that she quits asking about them. And I think she figures if I keep quiet about her spending as much on grandkids as she does then she shouldn't complain about $100 here and there ;-)


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## Brit

I do that too Kenny and I'm amazed at how effective it is.

Recently though, I've been preparing to rekindle one of my hobbies from the 80s which was graphite drawing. I've been buying lots of little odds and sods on amazon and it seems like nearly every day at the moment, there's another parcel for me. Amazingly, the first four days I managed to retrieve the packages undetected (or so I thought) and then on the fifth day, just as I thought I'd got away with it again, the words I've grown to loathe emitted from the room where my wife was working.

"What you been buying now then? More tools? That's five days in a row you've stashed something away thinking I haven't noticed."

Luckily for me, the tools of a graphite artist are few and cost peanuts compared to woodworking tools.


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## Dark_Lightning

My wife knows right when I buy tools, if it's on the Citi Visa card from CostCo, because she has "spyware"- a tracking feature on my card so "we" can track for fraudulent charges. And it's usually on that card because of the rewards. As soon as I make a transaction, she comes out of the home office like some kind of cop, to pull me over for spending. I just tell her it was for an inflatable date or some such, and she goes back to work. Harr… She doesn't complain about what I spend on tools, even though she calls them "toys". They make or save me money in most cases. Well, not the carving tools, anyway. She spends WAY more than I do, anyway, on quilting. I'm trying to get her to reduce the head count on sewing machines, though. She has seven of them.

BoT, I'm still carving on my coat of arms, making decent headway. The bent skews (#2, L&R, 1/4") from Ashley Iles are a welcome addition for getting into some of the nooks and crannies. I may finish it this year.


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## Brit

I wish my wife had a hobby. I tried to get her to start a hobby about three years ago and she picked paper quilling. She bought all the gear and lots of different coloured paper, did it for a week and hasn't touched it since.


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## Foghorn

> Recently though, I ve been preparing to rekindle one of my hobbies from the 80s which was graphite drawing. I ve been buying lots of little odds and sods on amazon and it seems like nearly every day at the moment, there s another parcel for me.
> 
> - Brit


Graphite drawing is cool. This is one an artist in one of Rome's many squares drew for us of our dog. Took him a couple of hours and cost me 100 euros. 24" tall. We were happy!


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## Brit

Very nice. I like the simplicity of the medium and the challenge of rendering objects and textures and living things with just a few pencils.


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## DavePolaschek

Just got three ten-packs of gouge blanks from Mountain Woodcarvers today. Figure I'm pretty well set for life now.


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## Brit

Very nice Dave. You'll have to post some before and after photos.

Phil32 - I meant to say, I'm looking forward to see what you do with that Escher print. You picked a good one there.


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## HokieKen

I was tempted by those Dave. But the already forged and ground ones were so cheap I went with those.


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## DavePolaschek

> I was tempted by those Dave. But the already forged and ground ones were so cheap I went with those.
> 
> - HokieKen


I got a few of those to fill in gaps I had in sweeps, Kenny. Been trying to carve Os and turns out it's a lot easier if you have all the different sweeps you need for the job.

Thanks for linking to their sale when you did, bud.

Andy, it'll be a while. I don't even have my forge set up yet, and have a few other projects ahead of that in the queue, but maybe one of these years I'll have those before and afters for you.


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## controlfreak

The wife and I work together in offices across the hall from one another. She keeps my work and personal email open to help answer and keep up with the flow. As soon as I hit the buy key or win an auction I get "what the fuk is that" from across the hall. I may need a double secret email account and credit card to go with it.


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## DavePolaschek

Huh! This should be interesting: Don Williams is planning to take a look at in-cannel vs. out-cannel gouges and will be converting a couple tools in future blog entries.

I'll try to remember to mention it again when he gets to the individual articles.


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## RWE

The stars, moon and sun are in alignment. The Missus just left to go shopping for the grandbaby and Amazon tracking says that the twice delayed Flexcut profiled stropping block is only 6 stops away. What luck. I feel for all of you fellows that work or live under constant scrutiny with the wife.

I got my Shaaf beginners set yesterday and was able to get 4 of the tools commissioned. The wider gouges will take more time I am sure, but the narrower ones were not too bad. I am hoping that the profiled stropping block will be useful in maintaining the edges.


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## RWE

Oh well. The cosmic forces that affect us woodworkers are now aligned against me. I got my package from Amazon and for the first time in history, after two delays, it was totally empty. The envelope was open at the top. Somewhere a delivery man is driving a truck with a Flexcut profiled strop block bouncing around.

You fellows said the wife knows all. I think she arranged this just to mess with me. Got my refund and will have to reorder and I bet I get caught the second time.


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## HokieKen

LOL RWE! Can't say I've ever got an empty envelope 

Actually, in my experience, the larger gouges are easier because it's easier to follow the profile.


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## HokieKen

Dave, you figuring to forge or just grind those blanks? I decided forging would require yoo many tools -swage blocks or dies - to get good profiles for gouges. That was the reason I didn't grab a few of those blanks for myself.


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## DavePolaschek

Kenny,

I figure I'll just grind a few shallower sweeps to start. They're 3/32-1/8 thick, so there's a little spare metal. For letter-carving, the gaps I had in my sweeps were a #4 and #6, so I bought those, both in 12mm wide. I could use a narrow #2 and #3 (I've got an 18mm #3, but often need something narrower).










This is what the 1/2" blanks look like. With 10 of them, I oughta be able to get a couple users by just grinding.

The 3/4 and inch wide blanks will probably get forging attempts. We'll see what happens. I also have my buddy back in MN who has a forge and makes all sorts of stuff (he's working on a vise, last I heard), so I might ask him for some help.

If you need a couple to play with, let me know and I'll throw them into the next box of stuff I send your way.


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## Karda

how are you going to temper them


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## Phil32

Good luck on forming your tools, Dave. I also find myself moving toward narrower gouges for most of my carving, My favorites are around 7 mm in various profiles. I don't think I'll ever be using that #5 - 35mm.


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## Phil32

> How are you going to temper them?
> 
> - Karda


You could use a bottle torch or a barbeque with a blower (like a hair dryer.) But you have to know your temp colors.


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## Karda

phil you mean like a plumbers torch or map gas


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## DavePolaschek

Thanks, Phil. I like the wider sweeps for some things so far. The longer tall verticals of a 2" tall capital O, for example, seem to be pretty happy with a #3-18, but I'm into the #9 for the top and bottom, and even a 12 is too wide there. But it's easy to make a gouge narrower if I decide that's what I need…

Karda, I've got my little forge (a Hell's Forge single burner) for heat treat and anneal once I get it set up, and I've got a convection toaster oven that I've used for wood stabilizing and hot-browning metal. It gets hot enough for tempering.

But I've also used a little MAPP gas torch for annealing, and heat treating. I anneal brass all the time, and have heated and quenched a chisel that wouldn't hold an edge. It's not perfect, but it went from way too soft to maybe somewhere in the mid-50s before an anneal cycle in the toaster oven. Not bad for a buck at a yard sale, and I figure it's a good one to practice on.


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## HokieKen

Are those blanks hardened or annealed Dave? I couldn't decide from the description.


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## DavePolaschek

They don't seem fully hardened, Kenny. A file bites into them pretty good. But they don't seem fully annealed, either…


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## controlfreak

> phil you mean like a plumbers torch or map gas
> 
> - Karda


Map gas is hotter than propane which is why it is preferred by plumbers if that helps at all.


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## RWE

Got the 5 sweep 20 MM straight gouge commissioned. Using a bevel checker (probably a high degree of inaccurary) it looked like the Schaaf came in at around 27.5 to 30 or 32.5 degree range as shipped.

Taking it down to 22.5 or there abouts was an hour plus activity. Two sessions on the 8 inch Rikon grinder, side of the wheel. I took care to never get to the bevel and just to relieve the sharp bevel of 30 plus down to my final flat at 22.5.

I did the Mary May sway with the gouge locked at my belt and rotating the wrist. I spend most of my high school years hugging the wall at the Friday night dance and waiting for a slow dance to come up so I could invite some high school goddess to dance. I was born with two left feet, so swaying in the workshop did not come easy. At least no one saw me to make fun.

*One questions for the folks that have been carving a while. I assume that the crook neck or bent neck gouges, whatever the proper term would be, just need to be sharp and the shipping bevel angle on those is probably ok, considering that they are to get into tight cavities.
*
Schaaf ships a 3a 10 MM and a 7l 20 mm. The 3 a is a crook and the 7 L is more of a curve. I guess if you know what you are doing and what you are going to use it for, you might adjust, but I have no idea at this time. Will have to grow into the use of those tools.


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## Karda

got a dum no carver question. Why do you call sharpening a new gouge commissioning instead of sharpening


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## RWE

I will give you an dum answer. I think the idea is that you alter the bevel to your style, your desired angle. So in that sense you commission it be used by yourself. Buy a plane or a bench chisel, you just generally sharpen them but don't necessarily alter or thereby commission them.

I am a total newbie, but I have watched a lot of YouTube. Kind of like sleeping in a Holiday Inn last night.


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## Karda

thanks that make sense


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## HokieKen

Yeah, it's a term that just means that you're doing a little more than simply sharpening it Karda. You could also consider altering the handle part of the commissioning process if that's something you do to new tools.

RWE - for me, the bevel angle should be so tgag the angle you hold the tool at is comfortable. For spoon beng gouges. I can see that being fairly high because of how they're held. When in doubt though, I'd just sharpen the bevel that's already ground in until I had a better feel for where I actually want it.


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## drsurfrat

I guess like my confusion about "tuning" planes. Just "a little more than sharpening"


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## Karda

ok


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## Phil32

> *One question for the folks that have been carving a while. I assume that the crook neck or bent neck gouges, whatever the proper term would be, just need to be sharp and the shipping bevel angle on those is probably ok, considering that they are to get into tight cavities.
> *
> - RWE


Here is a link to a discussion of the functional differences between straight, long bent, and spoon bent gouges. It may give you some ideas about "commissioning" these tools for your use.

https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/woodcarving-tools-technology-sharpening/1123060-all-gouges-are-not-the-same


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## RWE

Karda:

If you enjoy bench chisels and handwork you would probably like carving. There are multiple styles/techniques and I started out thinking I would like to do chip carving to ornament small boxes. I have been drawn to relief carving more . On this thread Hokie had recommended Schaaf chisels to me. They are very economical compared to other brands but require "commissioning" since part of the economy is that they ship in a somewhat raw state compared to Pfiel or other brands.

The veterans here make a good case that Chris Pye (check him on YouTube) is a good teacher. Chris is British and I think the term "commission" may have its roots in English woodworking but it seems to be widespread.

I had watched a lady on Roy Underhill's show several times, Mary May. Mary is very Southern and I like that, very chill. Mary got me interested in the whole world of woodcarving, so I owe her some subscription payments out of gratitude.

My plan now is to subscribe to her site for a few months, do some basic projects and after I get my sea legs maybe move to Chris Pye's site.

Check Schaaf on Amazon. You can get 12 tools for $99 or so. If you are set up to sharpen bench chisels now, other than technique for the curved gouges, you will not have much more expense.

There is some similarity to getting good shavings from a plane or doing paring work with bench chisels to what the experience is with carving. You will get addicted.


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## RWE

Good discussion there Phil. Thanks for the link.


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## Karda

Thanks RWE I am kinda playing around with spoon carving, but i have arthritis in both hands. I bought a gouge off ebay I am reshaping. I don't have the strength in my right hand to use a spoon knife that way so I made a longer handle so I can get more power from my left hand. Now i got to find the wood
I also have a struggle with my self. I have a tendency to start a hobby then spend more time watching videos, messing with and making tools and building shop fixtures than I do with the hobby it self. when that is done I move on to something else. The only exception is wood turning, I have been quite steady with that until I ran out of wood and belt broke


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## Phil32

> Phil32 - I meant to say, I m looking forward to see what you do with that Escher print. You picked a good one there.
> 
> - Brit


Thanks, Brit. This will be my 31st carving based on an Escher design. I have discovered it takes a lot of planning for how the Escher woodcut will be interpreted in relief. In this case I start with a square of Black Walnut and glue on the outline of the head cut from basswood or poplar. Then I'll shape the head in relief with normal cheek, nose, forehead and areas of hair before starting the patterns of grooves. It will be somewhat like carving I did of "Bond of Union" in that the heads were shaped fully in relief before applying the Escheresque twist of reducing them to ribbons. Here is a link to that: https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/wood-carving-tutorials/1109604-relief-carving-escher-s-bond-of-union


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## HokieKen

I am working on commissioning my first shortbent gouge, an 8a-10mm Schaaf. It's not as straightforward as straight gouges, that's for sure! The easiest way I've found so far is to just hold it in a high-angle grip at the angle I think would be most comfortable whan actually carving and grinding the bevel just like I would hold it to carve wood. Once the center portion of the sweep is established, I'll grind the sides to match it while maintaining a square edge. That's the plan at least.









Don't know how helpful that is RWE but it's all I have to offer ath this point…


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## Phil32

The #8-10mm has a shape (profile) that is 1/3 of a circle. You should rotate the tool through a 120 deg. arc while keeping the edge square


----------



## RWE

Karda:

I also have a struggle with my self. I have a tendency to start a hobby then spend more time watching videos, messing with and making tools and building shop fixtures than I do with the hobby it self. when that is done I move on to something else. The only exception is wood turning, I have been quite steady with that until I ran out of wood and belt broke

A month ago I was all about dovetailing. This month it is all carving. I class myself as "episodic" in nature. However, being episodic, I have a lot of handsaws, chisels, planes etc. that I did not have before the antique tools episodes washed over me. So I am finally back to making things and not refurbing as much. I have two Christian Beeksvordt Shaker side Tables in Black Walnut that are ready to put together, now for two years or more. I keep waiting till I feel better about my dovetailing. I did one in Cherry quite a while back and it turned out nice, but it preceded the hand tool obsession, so I wanted to do the Walnut tables with a bit more precision. (Also, I lie a bit, I have a Stanley 50 just about finished with a Jappaning job, and just bought an old Bishop saw and just finished sharpening it, but it sounds better in my mind if I act like I am back to woodworking).

On your arthritis, if you have enough strength to wield a carver's mallet, you can do quite a bit of work with light strikes on a mallet in the relief carving medium.

On wood, I bought a long board of Basswood at Woodcraft and cut it into smaller squares for practice, much more economical that way. Mary May said that the craft store Michaels carries natural edge Basswood blanks. I have not checked into that yet.

Hokie: That makes sense. I will wait for my disk attachment for the lathe to arrive and see how that works. Think of it as a sideways Worksharp.


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## Phil32

> . . . Mary May said that the craft store Michaels carries natural edge Basswood blanks. I have not checked into that yet.
> 
> - RWE


Be careful. Some of the craft store live edge basswood blanks are cross cuts intended for pyrography not carving.
You probably don't want to learn carving with end grain.


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## HokieKen

After setting the bevel roughly on the WS, I gave up and pulled out the diamonds and oil stones RWE. The powered sharpener removes too much too fast to suit me on this one. I'd recommend doing the bent gouges the hard way now that I've done one…


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## HokieKen

Also, I can think of no good reason for an internal bevel on a bent gouge luke this one so I didn't put one.


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## Phil32

> Also, I can think of no good reason for an internal bevel on a bent gouge luke this one so I didn't put one.
> 
> - HokieKen


It for when you use the spoon bent gouge inverted - such as scraping gum off of tennis balls.


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## RWE

I figure you are going to need that internal bevel when you turn that bent gouge upside down to carve. LOL

On the straight gouges, using the power seemed to help me, i would still be out there swaying away without using the grinder a bit. I meant to say, I "stayed away from the edge" in the earlier post. I tried to creep up on a flat bevel around 22.5. Using the table on the Wolverine jig, I could pivot the gouge against the side of the white wheel very well. Power grind, diamond plate, power grind, diamond plate to work the bevel back to the edge and then strop. Like bench chisels, that last little bit of white line (as Pye calls it) is hard to finish off because you are bringing down the whole bevel width. I am actually a hair off still, but having eased the approach angle, it is like having a secondary bevel and the gouge cuts very well now. Successive sessions should get me totally down to the edge.


----------



## DLK

We bought a "teardrop"-type trailer in the hopes of getting out for a vacation after our second vaccine shot on March 11. I am putting a collection of tools to bring along for greenwood carving or slojd that I could do at the campsite.
Am I missing anything? What else should I include?


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## DavePolaschek

Don, make sure to have enough paracord or a tie down strap to put a loop over a log that you can hold with a foot - instant holdfast for a makeshift bench, kinda like Grandpa Amu in this shot:


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## Dark_Lightning

> Also, I can think of no good reason for an internal bevel on a bent gouge luke this one so I didn't put one.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> It for when you use the spoon bent gouge inverted - such as scraping gum off of tennis balls.
> 
> - Phil32


lol. I have the Pfeil bent back chisel in my collection, and will likely use it on a future project. Once I finish my coat of arms, on which I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## DLK

Thanks *Dave* good idea on the paracord. I have that Bessey clamp in there to act as for example a spoon carving vise. It will clamp to a picnic table in a couple of ways. I see I forgot to add some card scrapers. Maybe I will include some palm carving tools and a couple of gouges. And I guess a wide bench hook to chop against would not hurt.


----------



## drsurfrat

Perhaps it's just a given, but with that froe, you might want a big ol' saw or at least a felling ax. And a mallet to drive the froe.
Paper/plastic bags for storing incomplete projects?
Gimlet or some kind of hole borer to attach lanyards?


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## Brit

...and a U-Haul trailer for the rest of your workshop contents. )


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## HokieKen

If you're planning to harvest your project wood on-site, you may want to add another hatchet that's more appropriate for roughing out or felling Don. And I can't tell if that's a strop in the roll with your knives or a stone but I'd throw an oil stone or two in there just in case you chip a hatchet or froe and need to grind it out. And bandaids. Lots of bandaids.


----------



## HokieKen

> I figure you are going to need that internal bevel when you turn that bent gouge upside down to carve. LOL
> 
> On the straight gouges, using the power seemed to help me, i would still be out there swaying away without using the grinder a bit. I meant to say, I "stayed away from the edge" in the earlier post. I tried to creep up on a flat bevel around 22.5. Using the table on the Wolverine jig, I could pivot the gouge against the side of the white wheel very well. Power grind, diamond plate, power grind, diamond plate to work the bevel back to the edge and then strop. Like bench chisels, that last little bit of white line (as Pye calls it) is hard to finish off because you are bringing down the whole bevel width. I am actually a hair off still, but having eased the approach angle,* it is like having a secondary bevel and the gouge cuts very well now*. Successive sessions should get me totally down to the edge.
> 
> - RWE


Be careful with having multiple bevels on gouges. Much like turning, when you are making fine cuts you'll rely on "riding the bevel" to keep the cuts planar. For the same reason, be careful about creating convex bevels.


----------



## Brit

If you're going to add an internal bevel, you should only do it on straight gouges, not bent gouges because there is no point.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks for verifying Andy. That was my thinking too and I briefly skimmed Pye's book to see if he mentioned internal bevels on bent gouges and didn't see any recommendation one way or the other. But based on his reasoning for having one in the first place, I decided it wasn't needed. I couldn't see any situation, aside from possible when carving in the round, when one would use a spoon bent gouge upside down…


----------



## DLK

*Mike* Yes i need to include a mallet with the froe. Maybe I will include my docking saw.

And indeed *Kenney* I will include another hatchet (I seem t o have three more). I will include the shingleing hatchet as it doubles as a hammer. I have a limbing axe and a felling axe too. The large tools can just stay with the trailer. I could just leave the froe at home or buy a small froe. The small bearded hatchet that you see is really quite nice for rough it out. That is a strop that was included in the Beavercraft roll and actually behind it are some bandaids (but only three) that Beavercraft thoughtfully included. I have one of the lanskey pucks for the axes, but I don't like it much. I may get something better. Or include an Arkansa stone.

*Andy* I can't tow any more weight so a U-haul is not and option and if it was my wife would put a loom and spinning wheel in it. 

Some good suggest. Particularly bandaids. There is a first aide kit, but I think we should add more bandaids.

I got interested in carving in 1989 and my wife bought me for christmas an x-acto carving set and 12 dozen or so boxes of bandaids …. which I can tell you that you will definitely use all of them if you try carving with x-acto knives. I very soon acquired much better tools.


----------



## DLK

FYI *Andy* I found your rekindling of graphite drawing interesting or amusing. Because of covid entrapment I have taken up learning oil pastels.


----------



## RWE

Hokie:

There used to be a YouTube video of a jig where a fellow hooked up a car windshield wiper motor to a handplane for the purpose of flattening the sole. The motor would pivot an arm that would pick the plane up, drag it along, then slap it down and drag it across a run of sandpaper. It was all done as a joke, and it was funny.

However I believe there is some money to be made on that idea and you Mr. Hokie are just the fellow to pull it off. Get that windshield wiper motor to go in a little more circular motion, add some gears and adjustments to refine the swing arc, and then affix carving gouges to it. You bring that to market and you will put Worksharp and Tormex out of business.

I get what you are saying about flat bevels and no secondary bevel. I just got tired of chasing that bit of perfection. Will give it another go later. It was whisper thin anyway, just a 64th or so.

I will volunteer to test the Hoke Windshield Motor Gouge Sharpening Wonder when you get the beta copy ready.


----------



## HokieKen

I was thinking more like a reciprocating type sharpener. You just set your tool in a holder at the angle you want the bevel then the motor moves a stone back and forth while keeping downward pressure on the tool. Once the motor feels increased resistance on the back stroke, it will know the edge has been reached and will stop automatically. I'm going to give the motor away for free but you'll have to buy a profiled stone for each sweep gouge you have. And a special holder for skews or very short tools. Kinda like giving away the razor and selling the blades ;-)


----------



## RWE

That works for me, but I am going to sell knock off stones and undercut you on the razor blade side.


----------



## HokieKen

If you try to use knockoff stones it flings your tool back at your head.


----------



## RWE

Well I give up. That is one impressive machine.


----------



## HokieKen

They're all impressive in my mind ;-)


----------



## Brit

Necessity is the mother of invention Kenny and when all is said an done, it can't be any worse than this idea.


----------



## Brit

Bowler hat optional of course.


----------



## Ocelot

Hey guys I've never carved anything and was thinking of making a few shoehorns, so I read this thread. Now I understand I need about $2K worth of tools and a few years of practice. I think I'll just wing it with spokeshaves and the oscillating spindle sander for the inside. 

-Paul


----------



## Karda

not realy i would use a straight knife, a spoon knife for the inner curves and the spoke shave


----------



## HokieKen

That's in interesting one Paul. Not sure how I'd go about making a shoe horn… My first inclination would be with a couple of shaves, one flat and one convex. You could certainly do it with a sloyd knife and a hook knife. Think of it like carving a really weird spoon. But, I think you're probably on the right track with the OSS for the inside profile.

I do think I'd probably start with a froe though and rive the blank to use regardless of how I decided to shape it. A shoe horn is gonna get mighty thin so I'd want to start with as strong of a piece as I could.


----------



## Brit

You gotta do what ya gotta do Paul. LOL. You could make a shoe horn with one carving knife and a gouge or if you haven't got a gouge, just wrap some sandpaper around an aerosol can to work the concave bit. A convex spokeshave would work too if you have one. Alternatively, you could buy one like I did.


----------



## Brit

A feel a 'Shoehorns of Your Dreams' thread coming on.


----------



## HokieKen

I feel like the fact that nobody has to ask what a shoehorn is for kinda dates the users of this thread ;-p


----------



## Karda

true


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## Ocelot

Another LJ recently posted a shoehorn, so I was thinking about it.

Also, I've still got the intent to build a Maloof rocker or 2 and I need some practice making curved things before I undertake the arms of a rocker.

So, a few hatchet and hammer handles and shoehorns just so I'll have made something with curves.

Ken, I appreciate the riving suggestion. I was intending to use Jatoba, which is pretty strong and straight-grained. Don't have a fro. Don't want to beat on the back of one of my drawknives. Maybe just use a 2" chisel to split it.

-Paul


----------



## DLK

> I feel like the fact that nobody has to ask what a shoehorn is for kinda dates the users of this thread ;-p
> 
> - HokieKen


But users on this thread need the long handle ones.










And although this one only cost $4.20 the point is to make something. That's the joy.

*Can we make a combination shoe horn and back scratcher?*


----------



## Ocelot

If I could find some like that for $4.20, I'd buy a couple.


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## HokieKen

I don't see why not Don. Bonus points if you can put on your shoe and scratch your back *at the same time*!


----------



## Ocelot

Double post deleted.


----------



## DLK

> If I could find some like that for $4.20, I d buy a couple.
> 
> - Ocelot


Here is a link to them.


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## DavePolaschek

Paul, I'm planning to do a shoehorn or two (the long-handled ones). Probably split them out of a nice straight piece of ash I have, then carve with a sloyd knife and a spokeshave. I like Don's idea of putting a backscratcher on the other end, though…


----------



## HokieKen

I don't know if this is useful to anyone or not but it's the only video I've found of using a powered sharpener for bent gouges so thought I'd post it. You'll have to jump to about 38:30 before he actually starts sharpening. I didn't have sound on so I dunno how useful the stuff prior to that is…

After watching, I went to check out the Tormek jig he uses. HAHAHA! Guess I'll be figuring out an alternative…


----------



## RWE

I watched that one too Hokie. If you figure out an alternative, make two of them. You get a controlled roll with that device and it would take some skill, but seems doable. As long as the device you make doesn't throw the chisel back at you randomly, I would be interested (joke, see prior posts). I assume from your comment, the Tormek jig is pricey!!!!

I am inclined to buy a CBN wheel for my grinder and call it quits on sharpening equipment. I could use if for lathe tools, bench chisels, plane irons and such and if I never use it for carving tools, ok. With that jig, I could set up a post to roll that jig on and maybe use it to get a perfectly flat bevel on certain gouges.

I went through my second round of refining/commissioning the Schaaf beginner set this week. I got the Flexcut SlipStrop in finally and it seemed to make a big difference in the edge.

*I joined the Mary May website and highly recommend it to anyone beginning. You have enough free content to get your feet wet (3 projects, plus sharpening, free) then there are numerous projects after you subscribe (not sure of the number but something like over a hundred). Logical layout and a nice interface for a beginner where you can track your progress and download PDF recaps of major points following the progression.*

What I particularly like is that under the subscription, you can download the instruction video and a PDF with the design. Having the video on a Kindle Fire tablet in the shop is much better. I would not condemn a laptop to time in my shop, so using an IPAD or Fire tablet is great.


----------



## HokieKen

Yep, the Tormek jig is about $120 RWE. So I won't be buying that. I probably won't be buying or making anything. I made out pretty well just freehanding it to lower the bevel on my Worksharp then finishing it up on stones. I don't foresee owning a whole lot of bent tools so I'll just get through the few I have without a jig.

The bent gouges I ordered from Mountain Woodcarvers on 2/12 are finally out for delivery today… Not the fault of Mountain WC, they shipped the same day I ordered. But then the package remained in USPS limbo from 2/14 until today. Grrr.


----------



## RWE

You are the metal worker and I defer to your knowledge in that department. It just occurred to me that the jig might be conjured in wood. I may go back and look at that. A round rasp to cut the groove, a jig knob and threaded insert to lock the chisel. You have the metal post on your Worksharp I believe.

.


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## HokieKen

It could certainly be replicated, either in metal or wood. I just don't see it as being worth the time and effort it would take to make it for my use.


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## RWE

I thought you were were an enthusiast and adventurer. Why climb a mountain? Because it is there.

After working so long on my new set of chisels, I would not dream of using it now either, but one day I might need it for a new one. You can accomplish the same sort of thing with the Wolverine jig. The size of the bevel on a carving tool might be so small that the Wolverine jig would work for roughing in the bevel and then refining it by hand. With an eight inch CBN wheel or regular wheel, I think there would be little curve on a 3/8 inch wide bevel. If there were one, you could refine it off by hand.

I may take the time to see if I could get the Wolverine to set up for a typical straight gouge. Just to see if it could be a possibility. You can be as delicate with that as you want and get a perfect bevel. My lathe tools are all well set up.

*Just thinking this stuff seems to violate the expert woodcarver's rules of conduct, so I will refrain from further discussion unless I actually try it with good results.*


----------



## HokieKen

I wouldn't know about that, you'll have to ask Andy or Phil ;-)


----------



## Phil32

There may be an "ethic" in woodworking, similar to what exists in rock climbing, i.e. you don't drill holes in smooth rock cliffs and bolt your way up a new route. But people do. The first ascent of Fitzroy was done using a Ramset gun.

I have no issues with how you choose to sharpen your tools, but if the end result is a sharp tool in a drawer. . . ?


----------



## RWE

Phil:

Your advice has been very good and welcome. I just threw out that comment to enliven the discussion.

I try to do mostly hand tool woodworking these days, so doing something by hand is my preference. However, spending countless minutes and hours working on bench chisels and plane irons has lead me to find ways to preprocess the shaping of bevels. I use a Veritas Mark II jig to sharpen them to a perfectly flat full bevel, but I do incremental power sharpening to speed the process.

With that mindset, from those tools, and the prospect of hand sharpening a full set of carving tools, I have been exploring the power options and there do not seem to be many.

What I found was that sharpening a full set of carving chisels was not that bad since so many of the gouges and chisels were so narrow. The wider ones took more time and I am still not as good as I want, but serviceable.

The whole power sharpening thing is just out of curiosity with this type of tool. I am a true believer in hand work.


----------



## HokieKen

I enjoy hand tool work too. But I also enjoy power tool work so I don't descriminate. It's just a matter of whatever gets the results I want and brings me the most pleasure. I don't care so much about time since none of this stuff puts food on my table  And I love me some sharp tools. I won't abide a dull one. But there is no pleasure for me in sharpening manually so I'll use whatever I can find with whatever jig I can buy or make to get the job done and get it done quickly so I can get back to using the tool 

I've had my 3 Hares carving sketched on a board just waiting on me to start in on it for better than a week now. But between work, family and other projects, it just hasn't happened. The wife has plans tonight though and my new tools should be delivered this afternoon so I have a feeling that today might be the day 

Plus, it's 65 degrees here today and I rode to work on 2 wheels so I might even slink out of the office an hour or two early ;-p


----------



## RWE

Hopefully you will get time for the hares soon.

Well I lied again, last post. Dang it. I just got the Penn State Industries "Chisel Mate" lathe accessory in the mail. It comes with an aluminum plate, 8 inches diameter and from what I have read, I should use PSA sandpaper, versus the hook/lattice style that ships with it, to get a firmer surface. You mount it to your lathe, set the RPM's low and use the tool rest to hold your tool. The big virtue of that paradigm would be the slow speed that you can set.

May be junk, may be worth fooling with, but now I don't have to be jealous of all the WorkSharp owners.

I will report on it later after I test it a bit. Still liking the idea of a CBN wheel on the grinder which may supersede all other power options.


----------



## HokieKen

> ...but now I don t have to be jealous of all the WorkSharp owners.
> 
> ...
> 
> - RWE


Oh yes you do.

;-p


----------



## RWE

Phil:

My improved Mary May beginner flower. Tools have not be sitting in the drawer. Going to do her Camilia project next, then branch out.

The one on the left with more depth is the second one. Still could do some more refining and will get to that. Having the video in the workshop makes a difference, very helpful.

The first one was a slap dash endeavor to put tools to the wood, working from memory (very impaired memory at this point) and doing a free hand drawing (hand may have been too free?).


----------



## HokieKen

I just paid for the 3 month special on Chris Pye's site. Was looking forward to having access to the full 3 Hare's video. Then after I paid, it said "please allow 48 hours for your account to be manually set up". Grrrrr. What year is this?


----------



## Karda

could somebody post a link for Schaff carving tools I can't find anything


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## HokieKen

Here ya go


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## Karda

thanks Ken


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## RWE

Karda:

I bought my Schaaf tools from Amazon. Might save some shipping if you are a Prime member.


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## Karda

ok thanks


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## Lazyman

BTW, the Sorby version of that Tormek jig is a little cheaper but I am not sure how well it would work the arm on the WorkSharp. You might have to make a mount (Sorby calls it a boss) where the holes are a little closer together but that might be easier than completely fabricating the enter thing from scratch. I seem to remember reading that Tormek actually holds the patent for that jig and licensed it to Sorby for their Proedge. That may be why Worksharp stopped selling the mounting arm.

One of these days I want to make my own Worksharp clone using an old bread maker motor.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> I figure you are going to need that internal bevel when you turn that bent gouge upside down to carve. LOL
> 
> On the straight gouges, using the power seemed to help me, i would still be out there swaying away without using the grinder a bit. I meant to say, I "stayed away from the edge" in the earlier post. I tried to creep up on a flat bevel around 22.5. Using the table on the Wolverine jig, I could pivot the gouge against the side of the white wheel very well. Power grind, diamond plate, power grind, diamond plate to work the bevel back to the edge and then strop. Like bench chisels, that last little bit of white line (as Pye calls it) is hard to finish off because you are bringing down the whole bevel width. I am actually a hair off still, but having eased the approach angle, it is like having a secondary bevel and the gouge cuts very well now. Successive sessions should get me totally down to the edge.
> 
> - RWE


Sharpening tools on the side of a grinding wheel is a no-no. It weakens the wheel, which can come apart at high speeds.


----------



## RWE

Dark_Lightning:

I was aware of the issue, but I hit it so lightly that I don't think I was ever in danger of weakening the wheel. Thanks for the reminder and warning for others that might not know of the issue.

That is one of the reasons the CBN wheels have caught my attention. Woodturnerswonders sells a 4 in1 model CBN wheel that has a 1 inch area on the side of the wheel that you can use for flat bevels, much like a Worksharp wheel, but only an inch wide. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I could use it for many classes of tools and if I ever used it for a carving gouge, it would just be an added benefit. It would be enough just to use for lathe tools.


----------



## HokieKen

> BTW, the Sorby version of that Tormek jig is a little cheaper but I am not sure how well it would work the arm on the WorkSharp. You might have to make a mount (Sorby calls it a boss) where the holes are a little closer together but that might be easier than completely fabricating the enter thing from scratch. I seem to remember reading that Tormek actually holds the patent for that jig and licensed it to Sorby for their Proedge. That may be why Worksharp stopped selling the mounting arm.
> 
> One of these days I want to make my own Worksharp clone using an old bread maker motor.
> 
> - Lazyman


I did read some time back that patent issues were why WS quit making the attachment. I also read that they just weren't selling enough of them. Don't know which is true. The wide blade attachment is much more useful I think though and they quit making that as well so I tend to think people just didn't buy them.

The Sorby jig is still far outside of what I would spend. On the other hand, this Triton jig might be a good starting point to fabricate one. The clamping and pivot portion is what would be a pain to make and that's already there. Just have to make a mount which wouldn't be too difficult. Heck, might even be able to use the Triton just like it is.

Still thinking I'll just freehand it though since I don't foresee buying a bunch of bent gouges in the future and I'm not sure what else I would use that jig for that I don't already have another jig to use.

My two spoon bent gouges from Mountain Woodcarver's arrived yesterday  I forgot to snap pics but they are definitely only rough ground! The tools still have the straw color from the tempering process everywhere except where the edge profile was cleaned up. But I think I got my money's worth  My only beef is really the handles. The smaller 8mm gouge has a really big, beefy handle and the larger 12 mm has a much smaller handle. And the smaller gouge has the handle misaligned. But, I paid for rough tools and that's what I got so I'm okay with it. I think I'll replace the handles anyway. The more I use my Ashley Iles tools, the less I like the ocatagonal handles on the rest of my tools.

I'll shoot some photos when I get around to grinding and commissioning these guys. I got zero shop time last night. It was too dang nice outside yesterday and my granddaughter wanted to go to the park


----------



## RWE

Been laughing at myself since last night. Today is my 69th birthday. For the last week or so I had been obsessing about mounting a sanding wheel on my lathe and how wonderful that would be. I would not have to be jealous of Hokie's WorkSharp and the world would be a much finer place all told.

So I ordered the Penn State Industries lathe accessory for that purpose. I start looking around for lathe parts and guess what i found!










Seems that I had been through this obsession in one of my previous incarnations as a "turner" and lathe enthusiast.

So for those that wondered about how to do a lathe wheel, or two or three, get the Beal tap that matches your lathe's threads









The wheel is easy to mount/unmount. The Beal instructions tell you to cut a hole about a 1/4 smaller than your threads diameter and cut into a section of cross grain wood. I used a two by four section. Glued the two by four to the wheel and then turned the wheel. You use the lathe to tap the threads.










Surprising very stable and no flutter in the wheel. Had the platform mounted about an 1/8 from the disk.

Here is a roughed in carving chisel that I wanted to rework after not liking my first go. Will hand polish the bevel on diamonds next.










Next up is a 1.5 or 2 inch wheel, probably 8 inches in diameter to load with buffing compound.

Moral of this tale. Try to remember previous obsessions. It may help to take notes. Occasionally survey your messy shop to see if there is anything you forgot about. Don't mail order things that don't fit your lathe and that you have to return.


----------



## HokieKen

I've definitely been there before RWE  That gouge looks nice and clean so I guess it worked out in the end!


----------



## Phil32

One of my previous obsessions was to use the *faceplate* that came with the lathe. It is already threaded to fit the spindle and various plywood discs can be attached with screws.


----------



## RWE

I think this might beat the faceplate. No mounting and dismounting of the plywood/particle board and potential alignment problems. Build it, turn it to true it and then it is good.

However a faceplate would definitely work. I keep mine free for bowl blanks.

I originally bought the Beal Tap for some other purpose that I have now forgotten. Some technique for mounting a turning block and not having to drill holes in it or something along those lines. I know I have about a half dozen tapped blocks of two by four to use.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

I wish I had seen this before I bought the Work Sharp. I already had the lathe and made threaded faceplates for it, many years ago. Ah, well.


----------



## HokieKen

Here are some pics of the Sculpture House tools I got from Mountain Woodcarvers.

This shows the state of the metal. There's obviously been no finishing work done to anything but the business end.









This one shows how roughly ground in the bevel is:









Just to reiterate, these tools were listed as being roughly forged and ground requiring extensive sharpening work so I'm not complaining. I got what I expected. And for $10 each, I ain't complaining at all. I haven't sharpened or used the tools yet so I'll reserve judgement on the quality of the steel but first glances seem positive to me.

Then only thing I'm not thrilled with is the handles. Not sure why the one on the smaller gouge is so huge? And you can see that the cutting edge isn't aligned with a flat on the handle on the larger gouge. And you can't really tell from the photo but it's also a bit misaligned axially with the handle. I imagine I'll end up replacing the handles…


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Unless it's camera angle, those tools do not seem to have their cutting edges aligned with the handle "drive" axis. Then again, a skew chisel wouldn't, either. Those chisels look to me like they are intended for mallet work, which would mean that the shape of the handle would only be for rotational control while hammering.


----------



## HokieKen

They're short bent gouges. I don't think you would use a mallet with them, would you?


----------



## Dark_Lightning

How long are they? When I see a chisel like that, they seem to me to be about 12" long or more, and made for mallet work. All my small chisels have small handles (think Pfeil or Ashley Iles palm chisels). The bigger ones that I expect to use a mallet on have handles like yours, though I don't always hammer on them, either. They are either the mid- or large- size Pfeil chisels. Maybe put something next to them for scale? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand.


----------



## HokieKen

Oh yeah, didn't take it as criticism at all  I just wasn't sure you could use a mallet with a shorbent gouge but I could be completely off-base on that. I'll try to remember to take another picture tomorrow with a full size Pfeil for scale.


----------



## Karda

I looked at the mountain wood carvers tools and I think I will order some, it'll be a challenge making the tools workable but the price is right. I have only started spoon carving so need some help choosing. what are the 6 or 8 most versatile or need tools for general carving. I have a 1" gouge and a 3/8 spoon gouge


----------



## HokieKen

What kind of carving Karda? Are you planning to stick with spoons and the like or branch out into other areas? What tools are most useful is highly dependent on what you plan to do with them.

FWIW, for relief carving and the like, I'd go with:

8 or 10 mm skew chisel
10 mm 60 degree v-tool
6 mm no. 3 sweep
12 mm no. 3 sweep 
6 mm no. 6 sweep
12 mm no. 6 sweep
6 mm no. 9 sweep
12 mm no. 9 sweep


----------



## HokieKen

Here's a picture of the short bent gouges with an Ashley Iles gouge and a steel rule for scale.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Thanks for the pic. Yeah, I'd never use a mallet with those, either.


----------



## Karda

thanks Ken I think mostly I will do reliefs until I know something, and spoons but that is mostly covered


----------



## RWE

Karda:

The Schaaf Beginner set, 12 chisels, on Amazon or on their site is a pretty good value at $99. I got it and am getting the $49.00 set of Fishtails from Schaaf (Amazon) to round out the inventory I will use. I believe the chisels that Hokie recommended are in the beginner set or very closely matched ones. The Fishtails are optional of course, but many have recommended them for how you can pare into corners to clean the corners.

I had a couple of Pfiel chisels and the Schaaf chisels are not as near ready to use as the Pfiel's were. However they cost about 1/5 the cost, so I can deal with the sharpening. The v-chisel is still giving me fits, but getting closer.

In case you missed it in earlier posts, most of the long term/veteran carvers have endorsed the Schaaf offerings.


----------



## HokieKen

Yep, I definitely recommend the Schaaf set as well. The only drawback I see to the 12 piece set is that it doesn't include any flat gouges. The flattest sweep is #5. I use my #3 sweeps a whole bunch on reliefs and they tend to be the most versatile for "lining in" subjects that have longer arcs. I might be tempted to get the Schaaf set and a 12mm #3 from Mountain Woodcarvers and run with that. Both will require significant work up front shaping and sharpening but the Schaaf are far more refined overall than the Sculpture House tools from Mountain WC. Much nicer handles on the Schaaf tools too.


----------



## HokieKen

Also, I've said it before and I want to reiterate it again. *I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about*  I'm regurgitating advice I gathered some time back before I dove into carving and have a little bit of experience to back it up. Just don't want my desire to be helpful to be misconstrued as me posing as an expert… Phil, Brit and Dark_Lightning (and I'm sure others here) have far more time, projects and wisdom under their belts than I. When you get down to it, I'm pretty much one, maybe two, steps ahead of you fellas that are just now dipping your toes.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I find the handles on the Mountain Carvers tools ok, but I have huge hands… but yeah, of the three I ordered, one has the flats misaligned with the tool. Maybe they're so big so you can plane the flats on correctly and have a normal handle left?


----------



## Karda

Ken from the work you posted you are many more steps ahead. I was looking through Mary Mays videos and she has only from life carvings. the bust of a lion and a human face. She is good and that is where I will start but I am more interested in people and animals


----------



## Phil32

> I find the handles on the Mountain Carvers tools ok, but I have huge hands… but yeah, of the three I ordered, one has the flats misaligned with the tool. Maybe they're so big so you can plane the flats on correctly and have a normal handle left?
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


I refer you again to this discussion from the WCI site regarding the cutting angle relative to the tool axis. Note especially the final comment from Rick Wiebe about spoon bent gouges. Rick is the authorized agent for Pfeil tools for Canada. Link:https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/woodcarving-tools-technology-sharpening/1123060-all-gouges-are-not-the-same


----------



## Phil32

> Yep, I definitely recommend the Schaaf set as well. The only drawback I see to the 12 piece set is that it doesn t include any flat gouges. The flattest sweep is #5. I use my #3 sweeps a whole bunch on reliefs and they tend to be the most versatile for "lining in" subjects that have longer arcs. I might be tempted to get the Schaaf set and a 12mm #3 from Mountain Woodcarvers and run with that. Both will require significant work up front shaping and sharpening but the Schaaf are far more refined overall than the Sculpture House tools from Mountain WC. Much nicer handles on the Schaaf tools too.
> 
> - HokieKen


Technically the #1 and #1S are the flattest, but I agree with your comment about #3 gouges. I use them more than any other profile. The first Pfeil gouge I bought (in Switzerland, BTW) was a #3-12mm. The only duplicate I have is a #3-12mm. My current relief project is being carved with a #3F-16mm, helped along by a #5F-8mm, a #7-10mm, and a double edged knife.










Phil


----------



## Karda

what is the F after the sweep number


----------



## Dark_Lightning

F is for fishtail. I wish I had known about them more before I started buying chisels. I don't consider the money wasted, as I use what I have, but now I'll have to get some of the fishtails.


----------



## RWE

This is the line up for the fishtail set at $49

FISHTAIL PROFILES - maneuverable in tight spaces for your finer detailing work. Includes: 5F-14mm, 7F-14mm, 7F-6mm, 3F-6mm

So I probably might need a wider #3, this set has a 3F.but only 6mm

F is for fishtail Karda.


----------



## Karda

thanks,


----------



## Karda

can you use a long bent gouge in place of a straight gouge. I want to get this gouge for spoons but was wondering if I could use it for a staight gouge if needed. That way I won't duplicate. can you determine from the picture what the sweep is, they only give width 20MM thanks mike


----------



## DavePolaschek

> I find the handles on the Mountain Carvers tools ok, but I have huge hands… but yeah, of the three I ordered, one has the flats misaligned with the tool. Maybe they're so big so you can plane the flats on correctly and have a normal handle left?
> 
> - Dave Polaschek
> 
> I refer you again to this discussion from the WCI site regarding the cutting angle relative to the tool axis. Note especially the final comment from Rick Wiebe about spoon bent gouges. Rick is the authorized agent for Pfeil tools for Canada.
> 
> - Phil32


I bought a #1-6, #4-12, and #6-14, Phil. No bent in my set. The handle on the #4 looks like it just got twisted, relative to both the #6 and #1. But they were clearance and unsharpened, so I'm not complaining. I figured I'd be doing work on them before I could use them.


----------



## Karda

I found this Schaff set on Amazon I can't tell is there a Vtool it doesn't say high carbon steel is it stainless, I hate stainless.

7 piece set


----------



## HokieKen

I was thinking of the 12 piece set but that 7 piece actually looks like a better standalone set I think. But in either case, they are high carbon steel. And they're well hardened and tempered. They take as good an edge as my Pfeils and seem to hold it just as long.


----------



## RWE

I have the 12 piece beginner set. The other sets were meant to be additive and complimentary to the 12 piece set. I also liked the 7 piece set to begin with, but it does not have a v-tool. The 12 piece set does have a v-tool.

If i stay with the carving thing, the next move for me would be the 7 piece set, but I felt too many voices were saying the fishtails were the way to go, so that is what i got to compliment the 12 tool set.

The problem that I have with Schaaf is that they don't seem to offer the tools individually, but at the prices they sell them for, I guess it makes sense to try to sell sets.


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## Karda

I hear you about the 12 piece set, but I have messing around carving for 30 years and haven't done anything so I don't want to spend 100 buck and put it down in a month. I am an expert in gathering tools and watching videos then making excuses to not do the work. The 7 piece set does have a V tool. I read more and that is where that information is. I guess I am too used to ebays descriptions


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## RWE

I must have misread it. In any case, carving is infectious. My biggest issue is shop time in general. When I get time, it is nice to be able to complete a project. I have about 2 incomplete Shaker tables, 1 incomplete Paul Sellers organizer box and so on.

One of the chief positive points about carving is that you can complete a basic carving in short time period. So maybe it will be the answer for me and I will actually complete something. LOL.

May work for you as well.


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## Karda

yea maybe, I stuck with wood turning longer than anything, limitation have been no wood i got some wood then belt brock now fedex is late with the new belt. Limitation for anything I do is pain. painful to stand to long, i am hoping much of the carving i can do sitting down


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## controlfreak

That's a good question Karda. How many carvers sit while carving or stand?


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## RWE

Most of what I have watched and experienced requires a lot of position change. For that reason standing and the sight angles are probably better. However, if a fellow sat on a high bar stool type of seat and used the mallet to control the cuts, the leverage of position change from standing would not be as necessary.

The mallet gives you power and control.

There are a lot of high end rotating vises that would also give you an easy way to work from one position. I have thought that one could make a decent type of holder with a faceplate from the lathe and a clamped surface that held the faceplate. It is common to glue the work to a backer board using a sheet of paper between the glued surfaces. Also double sided tape is used. So you could screw the faceplate to the backer board. Use some pipe for your vertical piece and figure out some way to lock it. Also there are a lot of less expensive vises that if solid enough, can rotate holding a backer board and the work. You may already have one. You just need to build a jig that can support your backer board in one.

So I think you could do well with something to hold and rotate the work and then use the mallet a lot to provide control and power to your carving. All while siting down.

It just occurred to me that threaded pipe, with a flange on the end would work as a vertical to hold your backer board. You would just need to figure some mechanism to allow you to lock the vertical post and easily unlock it for position change. The platform in my pictures a few series up, for the lathe sanding wheel was made with that technique. One inch pipe with a flange on the end. Don't like using faceplates if I can prevent it.


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## RWE

Ok, this is what we call confessional programing in the IT world. Super easy low end inexpensive way to rotate the carving work.

Assuming you have a bench with 3/4 inch dog holes and if not, drill one, may do one an inch wide. Make a base to use as the backer board for your carvings. You might make it round and size it to the hole so that the edge of the circle lines up with the edge of your bench. Put the flanged pipe in the center but bury the flange into the board so only the pipe protrudes. Put the pipe in a dog hole and rotate the backer board (which should be flush with the benchtop and thereby solid). Use a quick clamp to lock the backer board. Rotate at will.

Use double sided tape and mount your work to the base. Lever it out at the end of the project. This does assume that you are doing relief carvings that have enough wood on the back to lever without damaging the carving.

You want the work to be near the edge of the bench, so you will have to figure the optimum size for your base and the projects you are doing. Most of what I have done so far are small rectangles like 4 or 5 by 6 or so. I may give this a go on my bench. I like sitting on my bar stool type stool.


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## StarBright

Two Cherries gouges.


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## RWE

One last thought on the rotating circle backer board. Use a wooden dowel that matches your dog hole (assuming a circular hole, if not drill one). Cut your circle (or octagonal) or two or three, same or different sizes and screw the dowel to the center of the circular/octagonal backing board. If you own a hold fast, you could use it on the back end of the circle, our of the way of your reach to the project, otherwise, clamp one side that is out of the way of your reach.

If the board lays flat on the bench top, that simple wooden dowel will prevent it from moving and holdfast or clamp will lock it into a stable state.

Easier peasier.


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## DavePolaschek

> Most of what I have watched and experienced requires a lot of position change. For that reason standing and the sight angles are probably better.


As with everything in carving, it depends on what you're doing.

I find the following setup works well for me sitting down. I have a wheeled mechanics stool I use all the time at my bench, so I made a jig that sits on the bench and is held in my face vise.










And from below:










The two small bits of walnut at the top are glued in place, as is everything on the underside, but the sides and bottom can be unscrewed and moved to where I need them for a given piece.

The piece is held by two wooden wedges. I can knock them out and rotate the piece quickly, and between 180 degree rotations there, and moving my stool side-to-side, I've got a pretty good setup for letter-carving.










I use my mallet a lot while lettercarving, then switch to pushing the gouges by hand for the finished surfaces. And I do have to stand up every once in a while, but a lot less than I first thought. More often I find myself removing my glasses (I'm near-sighted, so taking them off means I have to get within about 6 inches to see clearly) and getting up close to the work to see a detail.

The board is tipped up about 20 degrees from horizontal. I might tip it up to about 30, but haven't decided for sure about that. It'll just be a matter of adding another 1×4 pine scrap to the stack.

Your setup will almost certainly be different, but this works for me so far.


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## HokieKen

I'll show y'all my workholding later. But I personally couldn't do much sitting down. If I wanted to sit, I'd look more towards spoons, whittling, carving in the round etc.

First impressions of the Sculpture House bent gouges are good. Even though they are pretty much completely unfinished, it didn't take any longer for me to commission the first one than it does any other gouge.

It was well formed on the end so it was a simple matter to establish a nice even, symmetrical edge. Steel worked like pfeils or Ashley Iles as far as hardness and ability to take an edge. I freehanded with 120-220-400 on my Worksharp stopping well short of a sharp edge then finished it on an X-fine diamond the black arkansas stone and finally stropping. For $10, they probably aren't quite the value that Scaaf tools are but the fact that there's a broad selection and you can buy just the profiles you want makes up for that IMO.

It glides across Basswood like butter  As far as how the edge holds up, I'll have to report back after I get some hands on time with them.


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## Karda

thanks for the suggestions you have given a lot of ideas. RWE could you send some picture of your set up I Have an idea what you are saying but iam more visual, your lathe set I am very interested in. I know sitting is not the best but I don't have much choice, I do asa much standing as I can and sit when I don't have to stand, same with the lathe. Here is a pic of my work bench


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## MikeB_UK

> thanks for the suggestions you have given a lot of ideas. RWE could you send some picture of your set up I Have an idea what you are saying but iam more visual, your lathe set I am very interested in. I know sitting is not the best but I don t have much choice, I do asa much standing as I can and sit when I don t have to stand, same with the lathe. Here is a pic of my work bench
> - Karda


If you can't stand for long would a Roman workbench work for you?


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## Karda

I wasa thinking about that, i may still do that thanks for reminding me


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## RWE

Karda:

The jig I was describing is nothing more than a "twinkle in my eye" right now. After thinking about it more, it will probably be a variation on the same theme as the two jigs shown below.

The right most jig was designed to hold drawer sides or box sides in order to chop out dovetail waste (Paul Sellers technique, just chisels, no coping saw). I did not want to chisel into the bench top. I bought a router bit that cuts a slot for quarter twenty bolt head but is tight enough that the bolt will not rotate. No need for t-track with that. That allows me to quickly set a backer board that matches the length of the side I am cutting so the chopping occurs near me and the bench front. I bought the quick pivot clamp to make the jig easy and fast. Clamp, chop, unclamp, flip chop etc.

The second jig on the left was designed to hold small parts for plowing grooves, particularly box sides.

Both jigs clamp into the end vise, like you have.

For carving, I think you want to be able to rotate the work quickly so that you can use your more dominant stronger hand, so envision a jig like the dovetail chopping jig. The clamp, quick or one like I have on the groove cutting jig, will slide in a track. That would allow you to have multiple and different sized backer circle/hex boards so you could have multiple projects that you could work on.

On your main board, which clamps in the vise and may also have a stop to hang over the front of your bench, very stable then, you cut with a forstner bit a hole that matches some large dowel stock that you pick up at the big box store. Glue or screw the (1/2 or 3/4 inch) dowel section to a round or hexagonal board. Double side stick your "work" to the round/hex board and insert it into the forstner bit hole in your jig. Use your clamp to lock the round/hex board. The quick clamp like I have on the dovetail board would be great, but they can be a little difficult to unclamp. Got that one on Amazon for a decent price.

I am out of the shop for the next week or longer, but I will probably build one when I get more shop time.

Use those principles and conjure up a design. Using a dowel section was my way of trying to ensure that you had some mass attached to the round circular or hex backer board that you taped your work to.


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## Karda

thanks. I have still to find some wood, but haven't ordered the tools yet I'll do that Monday. I was wondering what kind of wood do you use wet or dry. I know green cuts easier but it warps like crazy unless you get quarter sawn


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## RWE

You want basswood. I found mine at Woodcraft. If you do not have a source near you, remember the retailer Michaels. They supposedly carry a lot of hobby/craft stuff and sometimes have basswood blanks.

I bought a 6 or 8 foot long board, fairly economically, planed it and sectioned it for practice pieces. I am cheap, so check your area for sources. May see if you have a local carvers club to advise you on sources.

If you have strength issues with your hands, then basswood is the easiest to carve. The experts can chime in on this, but the grain is so fine the wood is so easy to work, that is all I would consider. I have quite a bit of Black Walnut that I could try, but until I get my seal legs, I am going with basswood.

This is not turning. I would forget green wood. Make something that you are proud of in green wood and a month later it would be checked all up.


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## Karda

how about poplar, i am doing a spoon in dried poplar and it seems to work well


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## MikeB_UK

From a *very* beginner carver.
My take is, like doing anything in wood, you get a feel for it if you use the same woods long enough.

I whittled 2 handles out of lime (basswood) and pink ivory at the same time pretty much cut for (many) cut(s).
Never tried either before and they both had their own issues.
I found the lime softer then I wanted for control and the ivory was like cutting marble, but toward the end I'd adjusted enough that I knew how the cut was going to behave.

Basswood/lime seems to be the carving wood of choice (for whittling at least, rather than relief carving).
I can see why, it carves almost like green wood, with very little grain direction to worry about (in my, admittedly, limited experience).
Air dried carves easier then kiln dried

But, basically, use what you have to hand, as near as I can tell you can carve a spoon out of anything.
Relief carving is probably a bit more complicated, I'll leave that one to the experts


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## Karda

thanks thats good to know as far as i know the only restriction on utensil wood is taste, i have heard that some woods can leave a disagreeable taste. I read in a survival book that pine was frowned on because it can give food a gasoline taste. I wound guess oak may be another


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## Dark_Lightning

OK, here are some gory details of my "vast" space available for carving. The riser I made that I clamp to the carving bench, oblique view, and a "top" view, with (part of) the family coat of arms in progress, and the high chair I sit in while doing most of the carving, when using palm tools. I have arthritis in my feet, so try to spend as little time as possible standing. The "high chair" is on a platform with casters, and set to a height that I can carve while sitting. If I have something that needs to get leaned on, I can move the high chair away and either lean on the chisels or use the mallet that you see in the picture. The bench brush is sitting on my next project, which I may start on before I finish the coat of arms. I try to not get burnt out on one project. I've worked on that carving for well over a year, but not much at a time. It has about 6 pieces that I'll put together at the end.


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## Karda

thanks for telling me about you feet, I was begging to think I am the only person who has that problem I have arthur in feet and a significant amount of necrosis in my left. i like the way you lifted your chair I may try that


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## Dark_Lightning

> thanks for telling me about you feet, I was begging to think I am the only person who has that problem I have arthur in feet and a significant amount of necrosis in my left. i like the way you lifted your chair I may try that
> 
> - Karda


I've had 3 surgeries so far, and am expecting another in March, once the latest Covid surge is reduced in our area. I got cheap casters from Lowes, and the rest is just a plywood plate with some chunks of 2 by 3 drilled for the chair feet. I got the "high chair" from the local Habitat ReStore for some small change. I also have arthritis in my back and hands. I'm dreading the day when I can no longer use my hands, but hopefully I'll be dead, first.

I guess I should point out that I use screws to hold that carving to the red oak plate, and clamp it to the riser. I didn't do anything like drilling a hole and using a dowel as a pivot, like RWE mentioned. That method did not occur to me. It seems like a good method. What I really want is a Zyliss vice like one of the guys in the carving class has. It's an antique from way back, and they are mucho money these days. It's Swiss made, and everything about it announces that engineering and manufacturing talent.

Sad but true, I was whaling away on the coat of arms carving awhile back, undercutting some of it, and ran my #2-50mm chisel into a screw. I'm not going to grind it back, even that 1/32" to clean it up. I'll just use other chisels to clean up those areas. I've bought cars for less than I paid for that gouge. 8'^(

It's been a long day, and I guess I'm all over the place with this post. I'll add that I spent a few hours spreading mulch in the planters in our front yard, just to complete the randomness of this post. 8^D


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## Karda

I built a stool the hight I want the most i got out of it is some scrap 2xs and the knowledge that hight will work. The angles don't match and the legs are not tight. I was supposed to use pocket screws but I don't have that fancy stuff. at least I know what to look for at the used goods stores. yea steel in a carving block is no better than steel in a turning blank, its hard on tools. question, I have some .5" MDF I am going to make a better sanding wheel for my lathe. How do I fasten the face plate the the MDF. I was going to glue it and screw it. I have some maple and a 1" pipe tap. I have made them before but not with MDF


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## Karda

I am looking into a roman work bench, I layed some 2×4s out on milk crates. that might work but legs ia the problem. All the videos I have seen are massive plank tops with big dowels crammed in holes on the bottom I want 2×4 legs how would you go about that


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## Brit

Zyliss vise:


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## DLK

Zyliss vise looks interesting but I also found this article about the lower quality of new ones. So be cautious I guess.


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## RWE

Karda:

I have some .5" MDF I am going to make a better sanding wheel for my lathe. How do I fasten the face plate the the MDF. I was going to glue it and screw it. I have some maple and a 1" pipe tap. I have made them before but not with MDF

I would be hesitant to use .5 MDF for a wheel. Seems that could be a bit fragile. I picked up some .75 inch MDF and plan to glue 2 or 3 together to make a buffing wheel. The wheel in the picture is .75 thick. I just ordered some 10 inch diameter PSA sandpaper and I am going to make some more .75 wheels with finer grits than the one shown.

If you use a face plate that fits your lathe and you laminate 2 half inch MDF pieces into a 1 inch thick wheel, I would think screws would be enough.

In the example I showed earlier, I used a Beal tap to tap threads in a block of flattened 2 by 4. The Beal tap was sized to fit the threads on my lathe head. I glued the threaded block to the MDF wheel. I expect that I used screws as well, but that area is covered by the PSA sandpaper.

I don't follow your comment about the maple and 1 inch pipe thread tap. For the platform that I showed on the previous post (and below), I used a pipe flange on a piece of pipe. I used pipe that fit my lathe's tool rest hole and screwed the platform to the pipe flange.

On the 2.25 (3 laminated .75 inch) inch buffing wheel that I plan to make I will slow the lathe down and put it in reverse so that I can hold the tool I am sharpening/honing on the top for better control. I picked up that idea from videos where folks were using similar setups. I am hoping that the honing wheel will add another level of sharpness to my plane irons and bench chisels. I will probably use a 10 inch diameter so the curvature for a chisel or plane iron bevel will be minimal.

If I am successful and the MDF buffing wheel works well, I am going to have to change my tag line to "In reality, all my tools are sharp".


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## Lazyman

Not sure of the timing relative to the article but it looks to me that Zyliss sold the rights of their design to another company in New Zealand and it is now called the Z-Vise. You can find old and new ones for a lot less on eBay.

I picked up an old one made by Zyliss at a yard sale last year. The box was old and ratty, probably from sitting in a dirty and damp garage or barn, but it looked like it was never used. I like it but rarely dig it out to use it. I've decided to hold on to it because it would be handy to have when traveling because you can basically turn a picnic table for example into a workbench. It has multiple configurations, include one that where you can clamp a board for carving tilted at an angle.

BTW, Kenny bought a benchtop Workmate that I think he said he was going to use for carving:


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## MikeB_UK

> I am looking into a roman work bench, I layed some 2×4s out on milk crates. that might work but legs ia the problem. All the videos I have seen are massive plank tops with big dowels crammed in holes on the bottom I want 2×4 legs how would you go about that
> 
> - Karda


I'd just build it as if it's a short skinny workbench (or a long sawbench).
Basic rectangular frame M&T joints.

Pretty much like this (But longer and thinner).


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## Dark_Lightning

> Zyliss vise:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Brit


Yes, they are nice. The guy in my carving class who has one got it from his father. It is a really nice piece! That's what I'd like. I'm in no hurry to get one; I've been getting by with bench hooks so far.


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## HokieKen

> ...
> 
> BTW, Kenny bought a benchtop Workmate that I think he said he was going to use for carving:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Lazyman


Yep, that's my rig. I initially just thought I'd use it for a travel "workbench" but it's turned into my main workholder for carving. It's just the right height when put on my workbench. I hold it in place with holdfasts or clamp it to a table when I'm travelling. Usually rotating the work in 90 degree increments is good for me but if I do need to rotate to some in between position, it's easy to do so by rotating the whole thing. For me, it checks the 3 main boxes on my list: Solid holding power, ability to rotate/tilt for accessibility, comfortable height for working. YMMV of course…


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## Karda

RWE the pipe tap is to tap the 1" hole in my face plate block the mention of maple is for the face plate and the .5 is not the wheel I will laminate 2 piece. . I heard some where that it is not good to use pine because it can shear off. 
I have a question about your lathe sanding disc. could build a flat platform then make a block cut at the angle of your tool to get a repeatable angle for shaping carving tools


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## HokieKen

This Zyliss Vise has been on my local CL for a bit now. I don't know what the going price is for these things but if that price is decent, you might be able to reach out and negotiate a price and shipping? I would offer to pick up and ship to you but unfortunately it's about a 2.5 hour round trip for me…


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## RWE

*I have a question about your lathe sanding disc. could build a flat platform then make a block cut at the angle of your tool to get a repeatable angle for shaping carving tools.*

When I watched a video on woodturnerswonders they use a jig on the Kodiac grinder platform to set the angle for a side grind (ok with CBN wheel). So I think you could do the same thing with the lathe wheel. It amounts to a 90 degree sideways WorkSharp, so I don't see any reason you could not set up a certain angle on a block of wood and let it guide your tool during the sanding.

I would use that on an initial sanding to set a bevel, but if and when I get the buffing wheel done, I would probably freehand that with the wheel direction reversed (all the CBN systems seem to turn the grinder around and sharpen on the top with the wheel spinning away for you.

The sandpaper on my wheel currently is too coarse to suit me. So, I will keep it for coarse work, but add a couple more wheels with finer sandpaper.

On your lathe, if you don't have a reverse, but have room in your shop, you could stand on the opposite side to sharpen or buff with an MDF wheel. I think the buffing wheel can do a number on an edge, so I will use it sparingly and as controlled as I can. A lot of videos on knife sharpening use an MDF buffing wheel. You just have to be sure not get the angle wrong or you may blunt the edge. Also, if the idea of a thick buffing MDF wheel appeals to you, I plan to use the threaded connection on the head of the lathe and pull in the tail with a cone center to support the wheel.

I get good results with my Veritas MKII honing jig, but I see this as a way to improve the speed at which I can get a correct flat bevel and then use the MKII jig with diamonds to get a polished bevel. After that, touch it to the MDF buffer wheel. That is kind of my plan.


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## HokieKen

For anyone interested, there are a couple of used sets of the 12 piece Schaaf set on Amazon with free shipping. Not a huge discount but could save $10 or so.


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## Karda

I just check and it only show regular priced and not cost listed


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## Phil32

> I just check and it only show regular priced and not cost listed
> 
> - Karda


 It looked to me that the Yellowhammer carving sets were available as used, for a slight discount. These appear to have the exact same profiles as the Schaaf, but with plastic handles.


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## Karda

i saw the yellow hammer the one I looked at were beechwood handle, is that a good set the steel is the same 60 hardness


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## Dark_Lightning

I went out and looked at my Pfeil carving tools this morning, and they all could almost pass for being fishtails, since they are almost all tapered from the cutting edge back to the handle. How many people have these chisels, and who agrees? I will admit that the straight chisels may be an exception.


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## HokieKen

> I just check and it only show regular priced and not cost listed
> 
> - Karda


You have to click on *See All Buying Options* on the right side of the screen. I just looked though and somebody bought the cheapest set yesterday. There's one used set left but it's only $4 cheaper than regular price so I wouldn't fool with it.


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## HokieKen

Regarding the Yellowhammer Set, it may be a perfectly good set. My only holdup is that they are CrV steel. I have had CrV chisels and while they take a pretty decent edge, they don't hold it very well at all. And they were horrible to sharpen. The burr that rolls up holds onto the edge like a starving newborn on the boob. The Yellowhammer may be a whole different animal, there are different alloys that can be classified as CrV. And mine were bench chisels so they took more of a beating than carving tools will. The reviews seem to be pretty favorable so they may be worth a shot?

As an aside, I had a chuckle at the reviewer that gave them one star because he was turning soft pine with them and two of the handles broke


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## MikeB_UK

> Regarding the Yellowhammer Set, it may be a perfectly good set. My only holdup is that they are CrV steel. I have had CrV chisels and while they take a pretty decent edge, they don t hold it very well at all. And they were horrible to sharpen. The burr that rolls up holds onto the edge like a starving newborn on the boob. The Yellowhammer may be a whole different animal, there are different alloys that can be classified as CrV. And mine were bench chisels so they took more of a beating than carving tools will. The reviews seem to be pretty favorable so they may be worth a shot?
> 
> As an aside, I had a chuckle at the reviewer that gave them one star because he was turning soft pine with them and two of the handles broke
> 
> - HokieKen


Which chisels were they?
The CrV that Narex uses takes and holds an edge well, never had an issue sharpening them.


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## HokieKen

These were some old Craftsman ones I had Mike. Probably made in the 80s. Not good chisels at all. I didn't realize Narex used CrV. Like I said, obviously not all CrVs are created equal


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## Karda

well I bit the bullet, I ordered the Yellowhammer set


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## Phil32

We will be interested in your assessment of them, Karda. I had never heard of Yellowhammer carving tools until I saw that advertisement. I was curious about the fact that the profiles listed were identical to Schaaf.


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## Karda

I read the reviews and one guy bought the Schaff set at the same time and he said they are comparable to the schaff the other reviews are good except the guy that used them for woodturning. The one thing I don't like is the black handles


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## Phil32

> I went out and looked at my Pfeil carving tools this morning, and they all could almost pass for being fishtails, since they are almost all tapered from the cutting edge back to the handle. How many people have these chisels, and who agrees? I will admit that the straight chisels may be an exception.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


All carving gouge & chisel shapes have to narrow down to the tang dimension. In the case of Pfeil, it's about 1/4" square. For tools that are that width (or less) at the cutting edge, it's a straight shot. But for fishtails that transition happens within the first 2" from the edge, leaving a distinct corner angle. It gets interesting when you put that fishtail shape on a #9 gouge that forms a half circle.


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## RWE

My mind has gotten into a sharpening cul-de-sac. Anybody on here do CNC? If you do, why don't you make and sell (highly discounted to LJ members) a profile honing board similar to the Flexcut Slipstrop

I am thinking two or three boards with the outside curve and the inside curve for each of the most common Sheffield list profiles. I suppose the precision of the CNC device is limited to the bit size, but if that could be accomplished, I would gladly pay good money for a set of such boards. You might have one board for the V-Chisel, one for the shallow profiles, one for the middle and one for high number profiles.

I know that you can make your own and I may get around to that, but I have not seen anything quite as serious as I am envisioning out on the market. If there is a good product like that please provide a link.


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## Lazyman

There are a couple of other shaped sharpening blocks out there
Here and here


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## RWE

Thanks Nathan. Those are whetstones. I actually have the second one that you linked. Entirely different purpose from what I am looking for. The Flexcut is a board that you apply buffing compound to and use as a strop for the final touch of sharpening. Just like you would strop a bench chisel on a flat strop, I was wanting something like the Flexcut, but that actually went a bit further and had the matching inside/outside profiles for the curved gouges. The Flexcut is good for the V-Chisel inside, but the other profiles for curved gouges are kind of catch as catch can. It is ok, but why not take the concept to the next step.

You can do it yourself by buying different sized dowels and bisecting them and gluing them to a board. I think you could use the gouge that you want to strop and cut the profile. Just seems like somebody would have a full solution but maybe the market is not big enough?

So some of you gung-ho CNC fellows, conjure one up.


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## Lazyman

I have the Flexcut slipstrop but I haven't used it much. They must have targeted them for the small gouges that they sell.

So I assume that you would have to make it from MDF? Any idea what the purple coating is? Is that needed? It wouldn't be that difficult to make them with a CNC if you know what the radii need to be. I seem to recall that different manufacturers use different radii for the same number gouge.


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## HokieKen

Yep, defining the profiles is the problem. If somebody wants to buy me one of each sweep in both the Sheffield and Pfeil charts, I'll do the design ;-)

I find that a flat strop works perfectly for the outside of gouges. And the Flexcut works for all inside bevels. You just have to sweep across the profile as you draw it along. If that makes sense…

In one of the videos on Chris Pye's site, he shows a set of 10 or 12 strops he made that are basically slipstones of various sizes made from wood and covered with leather.

I think if someone were to make such a thing though, that machining it from MDF would work well. It's a fine material and takes honing compound well.


----------



## HokieKen

And each gouge doesn't have a cosistent radius. Most below like #9 I think have a variable radius.


----------



## RWE

Restrict the profiles to Schaaf. I thought the Sheffield list would provide enough info for the profiles. If you made the contour as wide as the widest gouge, then the narrower gouges should work in it. Like Hokie said, MDF would probably work. I think that the Flexcut thing is Basswood. The purple color seems to be some thin kind of flocking that doesn't hold up and is just there for marketing and color in my opinion.

I think the point is that a #3 in one list might be a #2 in another, but they would be closer and hopefully longer than the profiles offered in the Flexcut. Make it 6 inches wide and get it so that if they were not perfect, they would at least be closer than what you get with the Flexcut.

I am thinking the shallower profiles would be where this could be used well, inside and outside bevels, and the V-chisel.

If you can make Violins and Guitars with CNC, surely your could conjure a strop block with graduated hollows and rounds.

Any of you serious veteran carvers have a homemade strop to show. I saw one on a YouTube video years ago, but don't have a link.


----------



## RWE

I will throw out another solution that I have seen and could explore. Mary May and others have used a thick oiled strap of leather and put buffing compound on it. It is thick enough that you can roll it over and create a curve to match the inside bevel of whatever gouge you wish to strop. The way May used it, it was soaked in oil (actually used olive oil) and thereby was pliable, plus the buffing compound seemed to be really embedded. The leather was also thick enough but pliable enough that laying it flat worked well for outside bevel stropping.

I like the Flexcut, just seems it could be done better.


----------



## Phil32

All of the Swiss profiles from #2 to #9 are arc segments of a circle. A #9 is a half circle. An #8 is 1/3 of a circle. etc. But, the radius of the circle is not the same for #9's of different widths. Since I use green compound on cereal cardboard, it is quite easy to improvise a shape for the inside of gouges, or V-tools, or Staehli gouges.


----------



## RWE

Phil:

Are you holding the cereal cardboard in you hand and shaping it that way or is is glued to a profile. It sounds like a similar approach to the oil soaked thick but pliable leather technique.

I will give it a go.

For general information, I got what I felt was a defective gouge from Schaaf in my fishtail set. I sent a message via Amazon's portal and they are sending a replacement set. One gouge would not hold an edge on one side. It had a dimple in the inside bevel. One side of the cutting edge from the dimple maintained the edge and the other side would blunt and fold over once you used it in wood. I chased it 3 or 4 times and could not keep an edge in the one side. Hokie speculated that it may have lost temper during the final grind before shipping.

But good for Schaaf in being responsive.


----------



## HokieKen

That's interesting Phil. I was not aware of that relationship for sweep profiles. But, looking at the chart again, I see it. I also didn't think that the flatter sweeps had a profile that's a constant radius but looking more closely it appears that they do.

As far as profiled strops, if we look at a few of the middle sweeps:









it seems pretty evident that there is no "one strop to rule them all" ;-) Since the radius of the curve and arc length are so different for different sizes of the same sweep. For me, a flat strop does well for all the external bevels on any tool I've run across so far and the Flexcut Slipstrop and a piece of stiff leather I can bend to fit into tighter spots scratches all of my internal itches quite well. Granted, the Slipstrop is not a perfect fit but there is a profile that can be used to get into most tools.

If there are specific profiles you want RWE (or anyone else) just give me sweeps and sizes and I'll gladly make a 3D model for some strops. Then you can probably arrange manufacturing with Nathan using his CNC ;-) I think milling them in MDF would work just fine.


----------



## HokieKen

I didn't find a picture of Chris Pye's strops but this is essentially what he showed:









And in the same forum thread on Mary May's site I found a link to these profiles that Lee Valley sells.


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## RWE

I stand down. I think the idea of an improved Flexcut board has some validity, but after thinking on it, I think the cardboard or leather option will be more universal. The Flexcut board has a decent V-Chisel profile and as you said, you can angle the tool to catch the available profiles. I think I will try Phil's cereal cardboard and also go by a shoe repair shop and pick up a piece of leather.

If I become a "master" carver I will make a profile block to match my favorite, most used gouges.


----------



## RWE

The Lee Valley profiles look interesting. That might be the ticket. Put them in an end vise and coat them.

The Chris Pye equivalent look like the ultimate solution. Leather on a variety of profiles.


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## RWE

Lee Valley has a lapping film that may be useful.

Get the profiles blocks from Lee Valley, make a board with dadoes to hold the boards, use a very fine honing lapping film and that may give me what I was looking for.

Thank you Mr. Hokie.


----------



## HokieKen

That lapping film isn't going to hold up as well as leather and compound RWE. It's more intended for actual sharpening rather than stropping. I have some of the ultra fine 3M lapping paper down as fine as .1 micron and it is really handy to have around. But it's pretty fragile too.


----------



## Lazyman

Not sure what the right term is but it looks like the black leather strop blocks above have the grain (?) side out instead of the split side. Which side do you guys use for your strops?


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## HokieKen

I have two strops, one with the rough side out and one with the smooth side out. I tend to use the rough side more often but don't really have a reason for doing so other than it's a thinner, stiffer leather and I figure it will take longer before it rounds my edges.


----------



## Lazyman

I was curious whether the #7 and below were even subdivision arcs of a circle as Phil noted on the 8 & 9 so I dropped the image Kenny posted above into sketchup and traced a couple of them to see if they would form a complete circle if you Joined them end to end. No dice. In fact the #8 in that diagram didn't work out to be a 1/3 of a circle either. I guess that just follows the fact that there is no real standard.


----------



## HokieKen

That's funny, I did the same thing this morning  I was in fact actually able to fit a circle to all of the profiles though. I think the resolution of the photo probably makes that imprecise though. But, I got 150 degrees between end points of #8 gouges which would be about 42% of a circle. Phil was referring to the Pfeil profiles though and the pic I posted was from the Sheffield list. So it's likely they differ.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> I was curious whether the #7 and below were even subdivision arcs of a circle as Phil noted on the 8 & 9 so I dropped the image Kenny posted above into sketchup and traced a couple of them to see if they would form a complete circle if you Joined them end to end. No dice. In fact the #8 in that diagram didn t work out to be a 1/3 of a circle either. I guess that just follows the fact that there is no real standard.
> 
> - Lazyman


It could be an artifact of the picture, though. You piqued my curiosity, so I went and pasted some #8 sweeps into VISIO. It's as close to a third of a circle as makes no difference, but I'm using the Hirsch sweeps chart.

Looks like Kenny ninja'd me! 8^D


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## HokieKen

You still have Visio? I'm so jealous! We don't have a license for the old version anymore and the new version is utterly worthless for engineering schematics :-(


----------



## Phil32

> I was curious whether the #7 and below were even subdivision arcs of a circle as Phil noted on the 8 & 9 so I dropped the image Kenny posted above into sketchup and traced a couple of them to see if they would form a complete circle if you Joined them end to end. No dice. In fact the #8 in that diagram didn t work out to be a 1/3 of a circle either. I guess that just follows the fact that there is no real standard.
> 
> - Lazyman


It looks to me that the chart Kenny posted is from the London Pattern Book or Sheffield system. My note applies to the Swiss system. With my Pfeil gouges, the #8 is 1/3 of a circle, #7 is 1/4 of a circle, #5 is 1/5 of a circle. Note that in the original Swiss system there were NO #4 or #6 gouges. Printed charts may be approximations. I used the actual gouges to test this concept.


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## Karda

I saw on a video by wood by wright a gouge one he has. This hone is a folded diamond stone one side is a tapered flute the other is the out side radius of a tapered flute that way you can hone the outside bevel and the inside bevel with the same tool. The taper allows you the work many different sweeps with the same tool. He did say it is incredibly expensive. I ll see if I can find the video


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## RWE

Karda: That is a DMT diamond product. I think there are others. Mary May, in a forum said that the grit was too coarse for honing and that she enquired about a finer grit but the response was that the curved surface created an issue with the finer grit, so DMT could not offer one Also, only a little section will match your gouge, so you back and forth over about a half inch section. Not very effective. May did not recommend. It is on Amazon, around $50 or $60.

Mr. Hokie, the web influencer, found the Lee Valley 6 inch long wooden profiles, $17.00. I just ordered some of those. You can make your own, but for $17, that works for me. Look at Lee Valley, search for "lapping" and you will see the hard maple blocks with different profiles. I will put them in dadoes in a holding board and either put leather over them or just put the buffing compound directly on the wood. Lee Valley notes that you can shape them to a particular gouge if you don't get an exact match.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> You still have Visio? I m so jealous! We don t have a license for the old version anymore and the new version is utterly worthless for engineering schematics :-(
> 
> - HokieKen


Yes, I have the Professional version. It has all the GD&T, etc. Though I don't use tolerancing on wood boxes. Unless I'm just winging a build, there is a drawing for a project. They aren't ASME/ANSI correct, though. I leave out the borders and parts lists and things like that. I'm not making tools any more.

I did not know until recently that the gouges were sections of a circle. I guess I will make some chisels now. I'd hate to waste that $20 worth of 01 steel.


----------



## Phil32

Some of you may be interested in a discussion (argument?) we had some time ago on the WCI site regarding the curvature of carving gouges:

https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/general-wood-carving/56722-chisel-question#post916666


----------



## controlfreak

I am here for an argument, no your not…..


----------



## HokieKen

Sadly I'm now piqued and have no choice but to attempt to define some sort of mathematical relationship for different sweeps. Crap.


----------



## RWE

Ok, I finally got my revenge on the great Internet Influencer, Mr. Hokie. Now he will labor under the curse of defining sweeps and struggle with that for the rest of his living days. It makes up for the money flowing out of my wallet for his "influential" suggestions. Revenge is sweet. LOL.


----------



## RWE

For the record, I just got a confirmation email that Schaaf is replacing the Fishtail set that had one defective gouge. So the talk about them having good customer service seems to be true. If any of you were on the fence about shopping with them, that might help you make the decision.


----------



## drsurfrat

> Sadly I m now piqued and have no choice but to attempt to define some sort of mathematical relationship for different sweeps. Crap.
> - HokieKen


Well, since they are (usually) fractions of a circle's arc, any given number should have proportionality between the width and the depth. Chord math.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm hoping it's that simple and that cord length/radius will prove to be consistent.


----------



## Foghorn

> I'm hoping it's that simple and that cord length/radius will prove to be consistent.
> 
> - HokieKen


Don't forget to throw in some radians and semi-arcs into your calculations to make it a bit fancier!


----------



## Phil32

i think your gouge description should include some quantum mechanics or string theory to bring it into the present. 
When the manufacture of hand tools got beyond straight bench chisels of a defined width, all hell broke loose.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

One simply needs to go out to the mechanic's tool chest and find a socket with the same OD as the ID of the gouge. Easy-peasy, since they are all sections of a circle. Except the v-gouges and so forth, of course. Just mike the socket after you find the one that doesn't leak light when the gouge is applied to it, and that's the diameter. Might have to go to Wentworth for some of the radii, though, lol. I have a degree in physics, and I do love my math, but there are times to just get things like these curvatures measured in a simple way.

Aaand after reading the post at the link to WCI by Phil, we're done speculating!

"The sweep number defines what portion of the circle (arc segment) is included. A #9 gouge is a half circle. So a #9-6mm has the arc segment of a circle with a diameter of 6mm. The sweep of a #9-30mm gouge corresponds to a circle with a diameter of 30mm. All lower sweep numbers are smaller segments of a circle."

Mic drop for Phil.


----------



## Foghorn

> i think your gouge description should include some quantum mechanics or string theory to bring it into the present.
> When the manufacture of hand tools got beyond straight bench chisels of a defined width, all hell broke loose.
> 
> - Phil32


Ha! Good advice.


----------



## Lazyman

I think that instead of doing math, I'll just take up chainsaw carving. Hearing protection, eye protection, face shield, steel toe boots, chaps and no math. Yep.


----------



## Karda

you scientists are overthinking this keep it simple do the Mary May folded leather. The leather will conform to the profile of the gouge. You may need a couple different pieces of leather for different sizes but will save a lot of headaches


----------



## DLK

> O Easy-peasy, since they are all sections of a circle.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


No they are sections of a plane that intersects a cylinder at the angle corresponding to the bevel. Hence the profile is an ellipse.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> O Easy-peasy, since they are all sections of a circle.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> No they are sections of a plane that intersects a cylinder at the angle corresponding to the bevel. Hence the profile is an ellipse.
> 
> - Combo Prof


Don't get me started on parabolic cylindrical coordinates, or projective geometry (of which, the last would actually be useful with the cross-sectional shape of the chisels//gouges). 8^D


----------



## drsurfrat

> you scientists are overthinking this [sic] keep it simple do the Mary May folded leather. The leather will conform to the profile of the gouge. You may need a couple different pieces of leather for different sizes but will save a lot of headaches
> - Karda


You are so very right. But there is a masochistic (and annoying) subset of us that enjoy overthinking the math. Then after that, we will take some leather, fold it in half…


----------



## Karda

know I have a brother in law that is an aircraft engineer but i do envy you your ability


----------



## HokieKen

Well, it would appear that the sweeps are defined by the complex mathematical formula of h/w 

I took the scaled Sheffield chart and overlaid a radius on the curve for each sweep for the 6mm, 16mm and 22mm widths. Then I measured the radius of curvature, height, arc length and included angle of each and entered them into an excel sheet. From that data I looked for a relationship.

First, I looked at the included angle for each. This was pretty consistent across different sizes for each sweep. Which makes sense since the angle is determined by the height, radius and chord length.

But what was also consistent, and more accurately measured and replicated, was the ratio of the height of the arc to the chord length (which is also the gouge width). For a #5 sweep, the ratio is .089. For #6 sweep, .144. For #7 sweep, .237. For #8 sweep, .378. And for a #9 sweep, obviously it's .500 since it's a semi-circle.

#3 and #4 sweeps were thrown out as bad data because the resolution of the image of the sweeps I used only had 1 or 2 pixels in height for those sweeps which made it hard to do a good job of overlaying the curves. But, the measurements I did take on the approximated curves, indicate that the ratios would be about .025 and .040 respectively for those sweeps.

As I said, the included angles for each sweep also had a pretty tight spread for different widths. For #5, it's around 40 degrees. For #6, around 64.5. For #7, 101.5. For #8, 148.5. And for #9 obviously 180.

I didn't overlay curves on all of the other sizes but I did overlay on some of them just to do a spot check and see if the h/w ratio relationship held up for each one and it did.

So for my money, that's how the sweeps are defined. At least in the sheffield system. I have never found a swiss pattern chart that was hi-rez enough to be able to duplicate the efforts with it.

At first I didn't see any pattern for the progression of the h/w ratio from one sweep to the next. But then I looked at how the height increases from one sweep to the next for each size. Anybody want to guess???

If you want to take a stab at it, here are the heights for the 16mm width for sweeps 5-9 (dimensions in inches):

.057
.092
.240
.315

*I will also note that the change in height from sweep 8 to sweep 9 does not conform to the pattern*

I'll throw in another hint too. If I were given 16mm gouges with those heights and asked to forge #3 and #4 sweeps, I would give them heights of .022" and .035" respectively.

There are enough nerds in here that this should be spotted pretty quickly ;-)


----------



## drsurfrat

> ... for sweeps 5-9 (dimensions in inches):
> .057
> .092
> .240
> .315
> 
> - HokieKen


 Missing number?
-you missed #7 at 0.149"


----------



## Phil32

> ... for sweeps 5-9 (dimensions in inches):
> .057
> .092
> .240
> .315
> - HokieKen
> 
> Missing number?
> 
> - drsurfrat


The earlier Swiss system had NO #6 gouges.


----------



## HokieKen

> ... for sweeps 5-9 (dimensions in inches):
> .057
> .092
> .240
> .315
> 
> - HokieKen
> Missing number?
> 
> - drsurfrat


Oops. Squeeze a .149 in between .092 and .240


----------



## controlfreak

Think I am going to get a starter set at woodcraft this weekend and then put a wish list together for kids so they can get one for fathers day.


----------



## drsurfrat

Each ratio is the sum of the two previous ratios. Which is also that the depth is the sum of the two previous depths. OK, pseudo-Fibonacci. 
Except, where'd they start? There is a zero (sweep #1) and I can see skipping the first duplicate, but 0.022? It is the ratio at 10 deg, and 1/36th of a circle, but it needs 0.012 added to it to start the sequence.

My brain itches. I think I will go drill a couple holes and cut some wood.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Well, it would appear that the sweeps are defined by the complex mathematical formula of h/w
> 
> I took the scaled Sheffield chart and overlaid a radius on the curve for each sweep for the 6mm, 16mm and 22mm widths. Then I measured the radius of curvature, height, arc length and included angle of each and entered them into an excel sheet. From that data I looked for a relationship.
> 
> First, I looked at the included angle for each. This was pretty consistent across different sizes for each sweep. Which makes sense since the angle is determined by the height, radius and chord length.
> 
> But what was also consistent, and more accurately measured and replicated, was the ratio of the height of the arc to the chord length (which is also the gouge width). For a #5 sweep, the ratio is .089. For #6 sweep, .144. For #7 sweep, .237. For #8 sweep, .378. And for a #9 sweep, obviously it s .500 since it s a semi-circle.
> 
> #3 and #4 sweeps were thrown out as bad data because the resolution of the image of the sweeps I used only had 1 or 2 pixels in height for those sweeps which made it hard to do a good job of overlaying the curves. But, the measurements I did take on the approximated curves, indicate that the ratios would be about .025 and .040 respectively for those sweeps.
> 
> As I said, the included angles for each sweep also had a pretty tight spread for different widths. For #5, it s around 40 degrees. For #6, around 64.5. For #7, 101.5. For #8, 148.5. And for #9 obviously 180.
> 
> I didn t overlay curves on all of the other sizes but I did overlay on some of them just to do a spot check and see if the h/w ratio relationship held up for each one and it did.
> 
> So for my money, that s how the sweeps are defined. At least in the sheffield system. I have never found a swiss pattern chart that was hi-rez enough to be able to duplicate the efforts with it.
> 
> At first I didn t see any pattern for the progression of the h/w ratio from one sweep to the next. But then I looked at how the height increases from one sweep to the next for each size. Anybody want to guess???
> 
> If you want to take a stab at it, here are the heights for the 16mm width for sweeps 5-9 (dimensions in inches):
> 
> .057
> .092
> .240
> .315
> 
> *I will also note that the change in height from sweep 8 to sweep 9 does not conform to the pattern*
> 
> I ll throw in another hint too. If I were given 16mm gouges with those heights and asked to forge #3 and #4 sweeps, I would give them heights of .022" and .035" respectively.
> 
> There are enough nerds in here that this should be spotted pretty quickly ;-)
> 
> - HokieKen


It's a geometric progression. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised about that. I should be out carving some wood, but my garage has no heat and it's cold and raining.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, I had the same itch with figuring out where the origination of the sequence is.

Ha. I completely missed the Fibonacci sequence within the ratios. What I did spot when looking at the heights though is that the height increases from one sweep to the next by a factor of 1.618, the golden ratio. So I guess that should have clued me in to look for the Fibonacci relationship with the ratios.

I have a feeling that the origination for say the #3 sweep was just "meh, that looks about right" by some craftsman way back when. Then some a-hole engineer took his gouge and said… let's math this mother! So, it's likely we'll never find a logical origin of the sequence.

I really wish the the relationship between 8 and 9 sweeps were related by 1.618. Then it would make perfect sense that they started with a semi-circle and worked down to the lower sweeps.

Now I'm gonna drill some holes and cut some wood…


----------



## HokieKen

duplicate…


----------



## HokieKen

I'm sitting in an online training presentation on Failure Probability Density and Distributions. So if you think gouge ratios are nerdy and boring…


----------



## drsurfrat

Kenny - - - look at the series starting with .5 and dividing by 1.618 - it looks very very much like the sweep series if you ignore the #8. Meanwhile enjoy your sigmoids and Gaussians.


----------



## HokieKen

I don't think it does Mike. It fits much better if you throw the #9 out unless I'm misunderstanding?


----------



## drsurfrat

I was comparing the ratio series:


----------



## HokieKen

Ahhh. I thought you were saying skip the 8 and go from 9 to 7. You are correct. It does fill in pretty nicely when you adjust the #8. Damned 8.


----------



## DLK

Sometimes I think the purpose of this site is just to get me spend money. I ordered the Robert Sorby ProEdge Plus Sharpening System through amazon, because woodcraft of Grand rapids didn't have the one the website said they had and I made a special trip up to buy it. Amazon tells me it will be delivered on March 11, which is why it showed up today.










I think I have run out of room for metal work.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Yeah, I had the same itch with figuring out where the origination of the sequence is.
> 
> Ha. I completely missed the Fibonacci sequence within the ratios. What I did spot when looking at the heights though is that the height increases from one sweep to the next by a factor of 1.618, the golden ratio. So I guess that should have clued me in to look for the Fibonacci relationship with the ratios.
> 
> I have a feeling that the origination for say the #3 sweep was just "meh, that looks about right" by some craftsman way back when. Then some a-hole engineer took his gouge and said… let s math this mother! So, it s likely we ll never find a logical origin of the sequence.
> 
> I really wish the the relationship between 8 and 9 sweeps were related by 1.618. Then it would make perfect sense that they started with a semi-circle and worked down to the lower sweeps.
> 
> Now I m gonna drill some holes and cut some wood…
> 
> - HokieKen


I guess if one wanted to figure out how to go from circular (#9 ) to flat (#1) (or vice-versa), a geometric progression would give the least number of sweeps. When one considers that the larger sweeps don't have to go full depth, the vast majority of shapes can be made with the minimum # of gouges. Carving has been going on for quite awhile. I wonder at any mathematical connection of the discovery of the Golden Mean and carving? Carving is a lot older, but at some point some bright boy or girl put some sense in the making of the tools. Just because those people lived a long time ago doesn't make them stupid, that's for sure. Mathematical Archeologists would probably know, or at least provide some interesting speculations.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Speaking of carving, and less of math, I made a sign.




  






I have ten gouges out on my bench, so I guess that's what I used. A #1/6, #1/12, #1/25, #3/15, #4/8, #5/14, #6/8, #7/14, and #9/something. Also a 45 degree V tool that's 3/8" wide. Oh, and a brad awl for dotting the script "i"s

Good to have it done.


----------



## drsurfrat

To beat a dead horse: There should be overlaps of radii between sweeps and widths, right?

Since I have no carving gouges, this is all calculation. The sweep numbers are across the top, the widths are down the left. The table is radiuses for each combination.


----------



## HokieKen

I don't have an extensive enough selection to validate Mike but I could empirically by overlaying radii on the chart and measuring. I'll do that one day… I will say that when I was overlaying the chart yesterday that I did find that the 8 and 9 sweeps for each size I measured appear to have the same radius but from 7 sweep on down, the radius increases significantly from sweep to sweep. Which, like the golden ratio/fibonacci relationship suggests that there is a pattern to the sweeps that breaks down when you transition from 8-9.


----------



## Lazyman

If you think about it, the fact that the pattern doesn't work going from 8 to 9 probably indicates that they in fact did start at the bottom and worked their way up. If you follow the golden ratio progression, the #9 ratio would be about .61, so they just stopped at .5 for a half circle. Had they started at a half circle and worked down, the whole thing might actually be completely logical.

I think we should start our own sweep numbering scheme and see if we can get everyone to switch to it.


----------



## Karda

to change the subject i got my Yellow hammer gouge set today. They are not ready to go. One I think I could get awy with stropping but the other need sharpening some I don't know what to do with, they seem way to thick for the size Here is a pic of the side of the #9 10MMhere is a pic of the gouge and of the profile it don't look like a 9 at the back of the bevel it measures 7/16ths . Also the V tool has to be reprofiled the tips of the wing are way ahead of the point of the keel


----------



## RWE

General question about good woods for carving. I have a friend who is a tree surgeon. One of the wood species I can get is Paulownia. I have some already.

I can get Black Walnut as well. I guess what we have here is soft maple. I can get cedar as well. I have never seen it mentioned.

I would guess that *Paulownia might be the best choice of what I can get locally and for free? Anyone have experience with it? * There is some discussion on the internet about carving it.


----------



## RWE

Mike:

Mary May has a video where she shows how to create a classical spiral shape by taking a narrow gouge and sequentially adding to the cut line with a wider gouge that has the same sweep. I think your chart where you show the relationships (say the yellow colored sweeps) might produce one of those spiral shapes. Same curvature, but getting longer and longer and spiraling out.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> General question about good woods for carving. I have a friend who is a tree surgeon. One of the wood species I can get is Paulownia. I have some already.
> 
> I can get Black Walnut as well. I guess what we have here is soft maple. I can get cedar as well. I have never seen it mentioned.
> 
> I would guess that *Paulownia might be the best choice of what I can get locally and for free? Anyone have experience with it? * There is some discussion on the internet about carving it.
> 
> - RWE


It has a lot of good characteristics.

https://worldpaulownia.com/technical/

If you're getting it for free, you are one lucky dog.


----------



## DLK

The wood database says that Paulownia is used for carving. See this link. Also says it contains silica and so you may have to sharpen often.


----------



## Karda

I just realized something, there are a bunch of videos on how to sharpen gouges but nothing on shaping a profile when all you have is a gouge shape, is there such a thing


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> I just realized something, there are a bunch of videos on how to sharpen gouges but nothing on shaping a profile when all you have is a gouge shape, is there such a thing
> 
> - Karda


That would just be grinding the thing to shape, I think. If this doesn't answer you question, then I didn't understand it.


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## Karda

I probably wasn't clear I usually am not. The shank in back of the bevel is very thick. T he #6 10 mm is 7/16ths the at the back of the bevel that is what I pictured and some of the smaller one are thicker than I think they should be and I am not sure about how I should reshape them


----------



## mpounders

> General question about good woods for carving. I have a friend who is a tree surgeon. One of the wood species I can get is Paulownia. I have some already.
> 
> I can get Black Walnut as well. I guess what we have here is soft maple. I can get cedar as well. I have never seen it mentioned.
> 
> I would guess that *Paulownia might be the best choice of what I can get locally and for free? Anyone have experience with it? * There is some discussion on the internet about carving it.
> 
> I have carved it before and it is not difficult to carve. More figure than basswood, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Someone gave it to me, and I really don't have a source to purchase more. Often, woods with more figure are better suited to stylized carvings, where the figure doesn't compete with or hide the details of the carving. It all depends on what you are wanting to carve and how you will finish it (whether you paint it). You don't see a lot of caricatures carved in any of those, but the paulonia is probably because it isn't available, and the maple is a little hard to carve.
> - RWE


----------



## RWE

Thanks Mike. I am just a beginner, but I am seeing more projects, letter carving, larger relief carvings that will take wider stock than the original basswood board that I picked up at Woodcraft. I will be dabbling and working in the basswood for a while yet, but will try the Paulownia after I get more carving time under my belt.

I do have a lot of smaller boards in Black Walnut, all air dried that I may try as well.

Free is good, but patience is required, cause it is all green when I get it and it can be years on some of it to dry. From what I read about Paulownia, it does dry fast, so that is good.


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## DLK

Carving green wood is possible. See for example this article. Also check out slöjd in wood. 
It of course depends what your plans are. I would suppose relief carving requires wood to be dry, but I am not certain.


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## donwilwol

And if you can get black walnut free, don't turn it down. I don't know that I'd suggest trying to carve it, but it's a great wood. It's used extensively in rifle stocks because it's both beautiful and durable


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## Phil32

With any potential carving wood, it is a good idea to carve something simple to get familiar with how the wood works. These early project should have no purpose other than informing you about its properties. 
You don't have to re-invent the wheel. There is information available about woods that experienced carvers generally choose.


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## RWE

Thanks Don and Phil.

For the record, I am as green as one can get with carving, but I have been woodworking for 40 years or more, and some during childhood. I have several pieces of furniture made with Black Walnut that I obtained from my friend. Stickley Magazine Cabinet (Chris Schwarz plan in Pop. Woodworking) twice, Christian Becksvordt Shaker side table, one in Cherry and two in process in Walnut.

Walnut is my favorite wood, Cherry second. Just did not think Walnut would carve that well. I have had the Paulownia for a couple of years and never attempted anything with it. So somewhere I stumbled over info that Paulownia was good for carving. I just wanted to see if anyone had experience with it. I have enough small Walnut pieces that I can experiment with it.


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## Karda

I have carved spoons out of cherry, maple and poplar they carve ok but I have never carved before so i have nothing else to compare to. They are harder to carve than basswood but they will carve. From my experience I wouldn't go out of my way to carve pine, it splity but you can carve it. If its wood carve it you will learn soon enough if you like it. Same as with wood turning. Do you turn wood when you don't know what is


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## donwilwol

I'm currently finishing a bow with white oak and walnut.


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## RWE

Don W.

With your comment on making a bow in white oak and walnut, I got to thinking about Osage Orange.

I checked the growing range of Osage Orange

I think Oak and Walnut would make a beautiful bow. Please share pictures here or on your site, if you have not done so already.

We do have Osage Orange here and I have a few boards. It can turn a nice brown color with time Not sure if it would work with Walnut, but you could pick some complementary color bow handle and make a great bow with it. I believe it was the favored wood for the Native American Indians to make bows with.

I guess you would have to have a pretty serious log and rive some good runs to make a bow.

I get the sense you like Walnut as much as I do. I particularly like the smell of Walnut.


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## Karda

I just bought a set of gouges and they need to be reshaped and that means the grinder. The gouges don't say high carbon steel they are some new steel, can I water quench them to keep them from over heating


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## RWE

Karda:

Most of the fellows on here recommended hand sharpening/commissioning for gouges. After my first run at it, I would caution you to be very careful about the use of power. I think there is a place for it in the first roughing in the bevel angle that works for you (typically 22.5 or there abouts) and then doing the Mary May technique of locking the arm and moving the body to get a flat bevel on your diamonds or stones.

One miscalculation, one slip up on the grinder and you can make a lot of work getting back to a good edge and curvature.

One newbie to another, sneak up on the desired angle and use power sparingly and only at the beginning. Refine the the shape by hand.

If you need to quench, you are probably getting to aggressive for these tools. I just went through 16 new tools. Many of the smaller sizes did not require much change. The wider gouges take the most work and I would tell you that you need to be careful and patient with those. Whatever you would do for a bench chisel or other flat tool, throw out the window and consider this a new and more cautious adventure.


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## DLK

A bench top belt sander or for example the exotic Sorby proedge will run a lot cooler than a grinding wheel and there is far less chance of damaging the edge, even so frequent quenching is still a good idea.


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## Karda

RWE I don't think you understand, I am referring to the shaping that has to be done before you even think about putting a cutting edge on that require a grinder unless you want to sit for just wasting away metal. example this is my #6 10mm gouge it measures 7/16 at the back of the bevel. What beginner will know how to shape that, I can guess because I have one about that size I got used. I found a video by Alex grobetski on sharpening a spoon gouge he shaped and sharpened a Schaff spoon gouge out of the box. here is a pic of my V tool I have to grind the wings back 3/16 of an inch the get the wing inline with the heel. They will all dig into the wood at to step an angle. that is why I have to grind and that is wrong with what is presented to beginner carvers. The teaching is how to sharpen and skips how to abevel that can be sharpened. I agree the proedge would be great, I have a clunky HF sander that I used on my turning gouges nothing better, I went to a wolverine set up I would rather have the sander


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## RWE

Karda: I figured that you have experience grinding. Most of the gouges that I worked on had very little metal to remove to get the bevel at the correct angle. I believe that the ones you bought had thicker areas. All I was trying to convey was that if you were grinding enough to create heat issues, then to certainly quench, but be very careful when you got to the final shaping which was probably best done by hand.

I am no fan of shaping by hand or removing a big area of metal by hand but these curvatures can be tricky and all I was trying to say was to be cautious. I am going to put on a finer grit PSA disk on the lathe for my next commissioning series. Schaaf sent a full set of the fishtails to replace the set that had one defective gouge. So I am giving a set to a friend and will wind up commissioning two sets.

In any event, enjoy the tools when you get them done. It is a very cool feeling having one of those very sharp gouges slicing through the wood. Very addictive.


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## Karda

I am doing the ones that I will use first, I was looking forward to the V tool but that is goint to take a lot of unnecessary work. I f I could i would return it but I got the gouges from amazon. i wanted to get them from Yellowhammer but they had nothing at all in there carving dept. i finally got my lathe fixted so I can start working on a wheel when I get my blade probably Monday


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## HokieKen

Karda, uou don't need the wings even with the keel . You should set the keel and the wings as 3 individual bevels. That will make your keel significantly longer because the mtal is thicker there. Then you'll just kind of round over the transition between the three bevels. Hopefully that makes some sense. If you look back through the thread, there's a link that Andy posted to a how-to on commissioning a v-tool. Or I'll repost the link later when I'm on my computer and not my phone.


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## donwilwol

> Don W.
> 
> With your comment on making a bow in white oak and walnut, I got to thinking about Osage Orange.
> 
> I checked the growing range of Osage Orange
> 
> I think Oak and Walnut would make a beautiful bow. Please share pictures here or on your site, if you have not done so already.
> 
> We do have Osage Orange here and I have a few boards. It can turn a nice brown color with time Not sure if it would work with Walnut, but you could pick some complementary color bow handle and make a great bow with it. I believe it was the favored wood for the Native American Indians to make bows with.
> 
> I guess you would have to have a pretty serious log and rive some good runs to make a bow.
> 
> I get the sense you like Walnut as much as I do. I particularly like the smell of Walnut.
> 
> - RWE


Here is the bow and build 
https://www.diy.timetestedtools.net/white-oak-with-walnut-backed-reflex-deflex-all-wood-bow/

I will find some osage to work with someday, but buying a stave is expensive. I would like to try it.


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## RWE

Beautiful bow. I used to shoot years back, but my eyesight would probably be an issue now.

I will check with my friend and see if he has any Osage. The various woods come and go, kind of pot luck. Over a fifteen year or so acquaintance we have had two beautifully colored Box Elder trees show up. Only one or two Paulownia trees. Fortunately Walnut, Cherry and Soft Maple are pretty regular. We get a lot of spalted Maple. More exotic species have been Magnolia, Willow, Sycamore, Persimmon (great for plane bodies and I used it for a Paul Sellers Mallet) and others.

Generally, I build two of whatever I am building and give him one, so it propels the relationship. I have more wood however than he has wooden builds, seems I am on the plus side, but I have to keep the drying rack full to keep dry lumber available.


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## donwilwol

I had to change my anchor point so I could shot with my glasses on. I'm just getting comfortable with the new form. I shot compound up to last year, although I haven't shot much for several years.


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## Brit

Great job Don.

P.S. Loving the soundtrack in your workshop. LOL.


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## Karda

ke ni couldn't find that thread, I already ground back the wings hope i didn't screw it up. The wing at this point are almost 1/16th thick. I am working them down to thin enough to put and edge on.


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## HokieKen

Sorry Karda, I forgot :-/

Here's the link.


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## Karda

thanks Ken I take a look


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## RWE

I am back carving again. I have my tools commissioned, with a few that still need a bit of attention. I did order a Hirsch v-tool from Lee Valley. I hope it is not a palm sized tool. No info on the description on their site as far as the dimensions and it looks like a full size tool. Should be here Thursday. I finally got the Schaaf v-tool working, but probably my fault in my sharpening, but not getting great cuts. Will keep working on that, but the Hirsch is kind of like calling in the cavalry to rescue me.

Lee Valley and the two lines they carry were one of the few sources for individual gouges/tools that I could conjure up.

have used Narex bench chisels and I see that they sell a set of carving chisels (Amazon). Narex was always well reviewed in FWW and other sites. I sold my set once I had a good compliment of vintage chisels. Anyone ever try the Narex carving tools. They are a bit pricey compared to Schaaf. I like my Schaaf gouges and chisels, just looking for sources for one outs if I add more.

Doing my third Mary May flower, so that I can do one with a full compliment of tools. Trying for smoother surfaces and cleaner vertical edges. It is kind of relaxing to not have to worry about not having the correct gouge for a project.


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## Karda

RWE chipping away and wood carver supply see individual tool of good quality


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## DLK

*RWE* I have bought individual Hrish tools from Highland Woodworking
which is in Atalanta and you could drive there from Brimingham.


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## HokieKen

Tools for Working Wood sells individual tools as well. And I'm sure you know Woodcraft has Pfeil.


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## RWE

Thanks Karda and Combo. I have visited Highland Woodworking before and I like their store. If you have not subscribed to their newsletter/email that links "Moments with a Master" videos, it is well worth watching the videos they make with master woodworkers.

I am done for a while carving tools, but I will keep those sources in mind.

I assume you like the Hirsch tools? Looking forward to the v-tool.


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## Karda

I don't know what tools I like I haven't got mine sharp yet.I don't know what i am going I don't even profile pictures to guide me from videos I can tell mine are much thicker than they should be. the onl=y tool that has a bevel I wouldn't change is the v tool


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## RWE

I bought two Pfeils at Woodcraft when I planned to get started. It was something like a half price sale and a friend recommended a v-tool (logical for a starter like me) but they only had the very narrow angle one and it makes beautiful tiny little lines. I may have to work on it. So I wanted a 60 degree. Hence the Hirsch.

The Pfeil gouge that I got is great. I did get my Schaaf equivalent sized one into a competitive state so I don't just grab the Pfeil automatically now.

If they ever have another half price sale, I will be there. I stumbled in too late and the choices were picked over.


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## Karda

I only have a ripple pocket book so I will probably check out the master carvers, they are sold next to Lamp so they must be good, not as good but good for the money. I wish Schaff or Yellowhammer sold individual tools


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## RWE

Karda: Don't want to rub salt into your wounds, but I had you in mind to send you the Schaaf fishtail set. I got a full replacement set because one of the originals had a bad edge. However, I kind of mentor a young fellow here in town and I gave them to him this last Sunday. It was with the understanding that if he did not get into the carving thing, to give them back.

Mentor is probably a poor choice of words. He is waiting for a 12 inch wide planner/jointer combo to show up at the end of the year. I will be over at his shop hanging out now. If they come back to me, they are yours.


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## HokieKen

I still haven't removed the first chip or made the first slice on my 3 Hares carving. Been doing 60-80 hour work weeks lately and trying to get caught up on machining jobs I committed to. I had a feeling that as soon as I signed up for Chris Pye's site, any semblance of free time would just go "poof"...

I did commission the short bent gouges I bought from mountain woodcarver's. I have only used them to test the edges after I honed them but they seem like they're more than worth the clearance price for sure. I put two very different angle bevels on them because I'm just not sure what the most comfortable way to hold them will be. I'll just put some time in with them whenever I can and adjust as necessary.

I ordered two small bent skew gouges from Woodcraft back in January in preparation for this project and they're still on backorder. Hopefully they'll show up before I have enough spare time to get to a point that I actually need them on this project…

Karda - what specific tools are you looking for? I have at least a couple of Schaaf tools that I already had a different brand of before I bought that set. So I can probably fix you up with one or two. I'm not sure what sizes I have duplicates of but let me know what you're after and I'll see if I have anything. Also, if you want to send me a tool or two to shape and sharpen for you, I'll be glad to do so and send them back so you have some kind of example in-hand to work off of. I'm far from a pro but I am pretty decent at making tools cut well. At least I think I am…


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## Karda

Thank RWE thats what i would have done


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## Karda

thanks Ken, I was thinking a larger skew the one in my set is 4MM 'm thinkg around a half inch or so, and a 8 or 10mm v tool. Thanks for the sharpening offer can you correct mistake I have already best try to get them sharpened. I think I ground the real thick one back to far but it will work maybe could I send you a gouge and my V tool, I havce started that and am almost to the sharpening edge


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## HokieKen

Sure that's fine Karda. Like I said, I'm pretty swamped at work so I can't guarantee I'll get them turned around overnight but at the worst, I'll get them done the weekend after they get here. And no problem with tools you've already worked on. There's more steel on carving tools than most will use in a lifetime. So even if you waste an inch right out of the gate, you have plenty left ;-)

I know I don't have any skews or v-tools to spare. Sorry.


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## Phil32

I'd like to share some comments about a carving project in progress and what actually happens in practice. This relief started as an idea a little more than a month ago. It was two weeks before the first cuts were made. That's because there is a lot of planning and thought necessary before jumping in with the tools:



















Now it would appear that this design would call for a lot of V-tool work. Not so. The first stage is to shape this head without any grooves. I've been using a #3F-16mm fishtail almost exclusively. Now and then I need a smaller gouge, so I switch to a #3F-6mm or #5F-8mm. I've even used a #7-10mm for rapid removal of wood. During this time I have only touched up the edges *once* - a couple of swipes on 800 grit paper and a couple on compound loaded cardboard. The basswood cuts like butter & doesn't seem to dull the blades at all.

I've reached to point where I'm beginning to define the curvy grooves. The first step is to make a knife cut. Then I widen the groove with one corner of my fishtail. Will I ever use a V-tool? Probably not. There is better control doing each side of the grooves with a skew or fishtail. The background texture in the black walnut - still to be determined - will probably be a random pattern of #5 or #7 gouge scoops. No squiggles. The man's shoulder & coat lapel will be stained to match the walnut background.

So what about the box of carving tools in the photo? Mostly unused, waiting for a new project.


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## Dark_Lightning

Don't let Phil fool you, that box is three layers deep with tools! 8^D I got to see that box and carving last week during a visit. The lid of the box is nicely carved, as well.


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## HokieKen

That's gonna be exceptional Phil. Which is exactly what I would expect! That's cool you two got together! It's always fun to meet up with folks met on this site in my experience


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## controlfreak

I hope to get some time to read Chris Pye's book this coming week with some time off.


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## RWE

I have not gotten more than about 3/5 through it, but Pye is a good writer. It looks like a coffee table book, but as you read, there is a lot of valuable, well expressed information. I was put off by the look of the book, looked too pretty, but it is full of good content.


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## HokieKen

I got the electronic version of Chris' book so it just looks like an iPad to me ;-) It is a very useful book IMO though. Especially the projects he uses to teach different things.

I'm really enjoying watching his videos on his site too. I wish I had time to actually carve while having the videos there in front of me for reference.


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## Phil32

> Don t let Phil fool you, that box is three layers deep with tools! 8^D I got to see that box and carving last week during a visit. The lid of the box is nicely carved, as well.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


I'm pretty sure Dark Lightning was on his way to the local Woodcraft to fill his own tool box!


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## Karda

well you can never have enough tools, I haven't got my new set carving sharp yet i am planning where to get more tools.


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## HokieKen

I've seen project posts of Dark_Lightning's tool chests. They were pretty full to begin with ;-)


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## HokieKen

Just out of curiosity Phil, what prompted you to decide to make the shoulder and lapel from Basswood then stain it to match the background as opposed to making them from Walnut to begin with? This is not a criticism at all, I'm just genuinely interested in the methods that others use and how they arrive at the choices they make.


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## Dark_Lightning

> Don t let Phil fool you, that box is three layers deep with tools! 8^D I got to see that box and carving last week during a visit. The lid of the box is nicely carved, as well.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> I m pretty sure Dark Lightning was on his way to the local Woodcraft to fill his own tool box!
> 
> - Phil32


I got skunked that trip! They didn't have the gouges I was looking for.


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## Phil32

> Just out of curiosity Phil, what prompted you to decide to make the shoulder and lapel from Basswood . . '
> 
> - HokieKen


I viewed the shoulder & lapel as part of the figure, but making it light threw the figure off balance. I had band-sawed the shape out of basswood and glued it on the walnut before I discovered it was not right. It is still a "work in progress". This is based on a woodcut done by Escher in 1920 while a student in Haarlem (Netherlands)


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## DavePolaschek

So I've got a new fave. The Morakniv Pro has been spending a lot of time in my hand. It's nigh indestructible, and was cheap enough that if I lose it, I won't be heartbroken. So I've been carrying it and a piece of wood around when I need to wait in the truck while my sweetie is running errands.

So far, I took a piece of walnut, and cut away everything that didn't look like a bird. It's not quite done, but it's getting there…


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## Karda

mora knives are great I have 2 of the carving knives but don't get the spoon knive In order to get a good cut you have to grind down the center rib to get a low enough angle to get a good cutting edge. I was disappointed when i got mine it had a bevel like a cold chisel


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## Lazyman

Any challenges sharpening the stainless blade of the pro, Dave?


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## DavePolaschek

Not really, Nathan. I've got a pair of friable ceramic stones I bought as part of a kit from Razor Edge Systems which work great on stainless. They're what I use on most of my kitchen knives.

Karda, the spoon knife works okay for me. I just stropped it and started cutting. Watch the spoon knife sections of the Swedish Knife Grip Sessions for the technique.


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## Karda

maybe they changed it but I still haven't got mine so it will carve, I have seen 2 videos on how to modify the mora single edge spoon knife so it will work. Thats been my experience, i bought one from Stryi that is much better


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## Phil32

There is a virtual carving festival this weekend on Vancouver Island in B.C. Those of you interested in Pacific NW native woodcarving may be interested in this FREE event:

https://forum.woodcarvingillustrated.com/forum/woodcarving-illustrated/woodcarving/general-wood-carving/1196231-carving-on-the-edge-festival#post1196263


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## HokieKen

Thanks for the link Phil, that looks like a fun festival to go to. Would be better in person but it looks like it has a lot to offer virtually as well


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## Phil32

Yes, one of the featured carvers is Joshua Prescott. Here is a link to his website in case you missed it:

https://www.joshuaprescott.ca/

Eleven years ago my wife & I attended a class taught by a First Nations carver in Campbell River, B.C. It was very informative in terms of tools, wood, elements of design - very different from the European tradition.


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## Karda

Dave i saw a video last night. Aguy can't remember his name biught on of the new Mora 164, he said it ciut ok but the secondary bevel is too high he ground it out


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## HokieKen

That's what I did too Karda. Major improvement.


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## Karda

I'm still working on mine


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## HokieKen

Wow, this thread petered out! Unfortunately, I haven't had any time to dedicate to carving lately other than a little whittling that I keep in my truck for when the opportunity arises. Which brings me to my question…

I have a couple of dawdles some friends' kids asked for that I've been working on whittling. I have been using Basswood that I've had for quite a while. I don't know if the Basswood was just a different type (Northern vs Southern or something like that) or if it's just gotten too dry but I just can't seem to get a clean surface on these pieces. With/against/across the grain doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. But, I don't have any other stock the appropriate size and don't want to buy anything for these. Plus, I've gotten pretty far along and don't really want to start over.

So, I'm wondering if I soak the stock in BLO or Mineral Oil or something for a couple of days if that would make it easier to get a nice clean surface? Or would it just make it harder to hold… I have the pieces roughed down close to size so I know the oil won't penetrate the full thickness, but it wouldn't need to. I was just curious if anyone else has done this and if it has the desired effect, or any other undesired effects. I don't care about it changing the color of the wood and I won't be painting or dying these so that's not an issue. I likely won't be putting any finish on at all but if I do, it would just be a couple of coats of poly for protection against boogers since they're for little boys ;-p


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## Phil32

The term "dawdles" could cover a wide range of whittled objects, but let's assume it's something you hold in one hand while working on it - something that would appeal to kids.
Basswood can have a lot of variation, even from one part of the country. Some whittlers use a mixture of alcohol and water(50-50) to restore a little moisture. They apply this mixture while carving - no waiting for it to penetrate. I think I just alter my technique, taking smaller shavings from hard basswood.


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## Karda

Ken I read some whee that what you want is northen basswood, the southern is cheaper but not as nice to carve can't remember why


----------



## RWE

Like Ken, I have not had time to do much shop work or carving. Still have a half finished poinsettia on my bench.

I have a friend that passes me band sawn wood. I asked him about basswood and that I thought he did not have any. So he points to a 4" by 6" by 8 foot timber buried in a stack of offcuts near the bandsaw mill. That is basswood i believe, he said. I did not need it, but plan to pick it up one day. So I will give an opinion on Southern Basswood soon.

I had just bought a new basswood board from Woodcraft and did not need more. Whatever variety they sell has been excellent, at least that is my novice opinion.


----------



## HokieKen

I have read the same about Northern and Southern. I don't know which I have but it carves pretty well, it just leaves a lot of broken fibers on the surface that seem to sever more cleanly with other woods including other Basswood.

What I'm carving is a couple of figures Phil. Namely Yoda and baby Yoda. It was an interesting enough request to get me to have a go at it but not interesting enough for me to start anew with different wood at this point… I'll try a spray bottle with some water and alcohol to spritz on the surface. Seems like it might improve the tooled surface with no risk of damaging the wood.

I bought new piece that is teed up for my 3 Hares carving. At the rate I'm going though, it's liable to dry up and blow away before I get that carving completed…


----------



## Phil32

> I asked him about basswood . . . So he points to a 4" by 6" by 8 foot timber buried in a stack of offcuts near the bandsaw mill. That is basswood i believe, he said. . .
> 
> - RWE


My son in Pennsylvania had a similar basswood post which he gave to me. I have used it for various projects going on ten years. It is coarser than the northern basswood I gotten from known sources. If you count the growth rings per inch, the northern would likely have a higher ring count because of a shorter growing season.


----------



## RWE

I figured the northern rings would be tighter and result in a better more consistent grain pattern.

Off subject, but any opinion on this board would be appreciated:

Was given to my friend by a fellow who said it had been laying in a barn floor for years. My friend did not know what it was.










Definitely a birds eye pattern.

After cutting off a 6 inch wide clean run it shows a sap wood/heart wood boundary. The sap section has a greenish patina.









After denatured alcohol you can see how it will finish out a bit better:










I figure it must be a birds eye maple of some sort, but the greenish color of the sapwood is really odd looking. Any thoughts about what it might be?

Will become some continuous grain boxes with some matching wood for a lid I guess.


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## Phil32

I just donated a 2" x 10" x 8' piece of identical wood to a friend. It was heavy & dense!

In answer to your question, my first thought was poplar. Most any tree that sends out sucker shoots near its base will develop curly grain near the base. But hardness may be the decider. Janka Hardness Scale: Poplar: 540 - Maple: 850


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## RWE

Poplar makes sense. It is common here. The pattern is not classic birds eye, but I could not imagine such a large section with the pattern. The kicker here is that board is not heavy or dense. Fairly light. I was thinking just dried out after years, but I like the Poplar theory.

I Googled "birds-eye" and there was only mention of a few species that show birds eye. I know of root burl but had not heard that trees like Poplar can exhibit such grain. As a matter of fact, you do see green streaks in poplar occasionally, so I am voting Poplar. Thanks for the insight.


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## Karda

i have a lenght of basswood a friend gave me, it is very dry and old the end grain is very course. I cut off a piece for a gouge test block, 3" in the grain is still course.

question: does wetting with alcohol water mix work with dry hard woods like walnut or maple


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## Phil32

> question: does wetting with alcohol water mix work with dry hard woods like walnut or maple
> 
> - Karda


I'm presently doing some gouge texturing of some black walnut that's at least 70 years old. Working cross-grain, it's quite dry. I may try for an answer to your question.


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## Lazyman

Sounds like you got some southern basswood Kenny. It can sometimes be a little stringy.

Personally, I would not use DNA for something you are going to be holding in your hands. Ever-clear would be my choice. Better yet, pour yourself a tall glass of scotch or bourbon and use that. It will get the piece a nice golden tone.


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## Karda

question is southern basswood a different specie or is it basswood the grows in the south


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## 1thumb

One of you guys here do this?


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## Karda

now that is an awesome table. It would be nice to know more about it


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## HokieKen

That is a gorgeous table )



> question is southern basswood a different specie or is it basswood the grows in the south
> 
> - Karda


I'm just guessing but I'm pretty sure they're the same species. I have a feeling it's just because of the environment that trees from further north just grow slower than those in the more temperate part of the country. Since they grow slower, it stands to reason that growth rings will be closer together and therefore it'll have tighter grain. Again, this is just a guess, I don't really know for sure.


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## Karda

thanks ken that makes sense


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## Lazyman

Unless someone is commercially growing European Basswood (aka linden), they are probably all the same species of American basswood but there are 3 varieties of the same species that grow in different conditions. The standard tree is mostly a northern variety that usually grows at higher elevations north of about Tennesse. Another variety of the same species is known as Carolina basswood that mostly grows further south at lower elevations than it's northern variety. There is also third variety of American basswood known as white basswood that is distinguished by white on the bottom of its leaves. It is probably one of the southern varieties that has the more stringy texture for carving. My guess is that the shorter growing season further north results in more early wood (or less late wood) making it more dense and better for carving.


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## HokieKen

I posted sometime back (probably a couple of years) about my Flexcut Whittlin' Jack and how fragile the edge was. Thanks to some advice here (mostly from DanK IIRC) I honed a slight convex right at the edge and the edge was much better.

I quit using that knife a whole lot because I have a much larger selection of fixed blade knives now for whittling. But, I took a trip out west last week and packed the folder in my suitcase to use while out there. So I picked up a piece of pine one evening at the Grand Canyon. Granted, it was the hardest pine I've ever encountered. But it was still pine and it was green. In a short time, it had done this to the edge on my knife :-(









It doesn't really show up well but there are some significant rolls in the edge. It basically rendered the blade un-usable for the duration of my trip since all I took was a small leather strop.

This blade has done fine on Basswood and Pear but that Pine just wore it plumb out. I don't know whether to try to change the bevel angle or just treat this blade as extremely delicate. I hate that it's not more robust because it's really convenient to carry for times when carrying a fixed blade(s) isn't practical.

Any suggestions on a folder that has suitable blades for carving/whittling but is a little beefier?


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## Phil32

Every cutting edge is a compromise between sharpness and durability. If you err too much toward sharpness, you end up with a blade that collapses when you switch from basswood to pine. So you need to change the balance toward durability. How do you do that? It may be a function of bevel angle or metal hardness. The manufacturer decided the hardness factor for you, so I'm not suggesting that you play around with a torch or forge. You might consider a beefier bevel or even a secondary bevel. 
When you find the right compromise, don't mess with it.


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## Lazyman

Kenny, you might want to get a set of diamond sharpening cards for your whittling go bag. They are inexpensive and don't take up much room.


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## Phil32

*Re: Basswood, Linden, Lime*
Grinling Gibbons may have brought the practice of carving Linden wood to England in the 17th century. Oak was the more common carving wood in England at the time. But with basswood, the level of detail possible in decorative carving suddenly jumped tremendously. As his fame spread, Gibbons ordered the planting of basswood (Lime) trees along the roadways of Hampton Court Palace. These were not citrus trees, but basswood. Their eventual use was not roadside shade, but decorative carvings. Some of these trees became interior embellishments in the Hampton Court library, subject of "The Lost Carvings" by David Esterly, biographer of Grinling Gibbons


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## Dark_Lightning

I thought, "what the heck", and bought the set of (4) Schaaf "fishtails" for $75, hand-sharpened, as it seemed like a better deal than the $46 and having to finish sharpening and honing them. Given the shape of the fronts on the 14mm sweeps, I should have bought the cheaper ones. I'm having to grind them true on the edge and sharpen and hone them, anyway. The edges were wavy and lop-sided. Also, given the miniscule "taper" on the small ones, I'm hard pressed to call them fishtails. I'll stick to Pfeil from now on- 'tis true that one only gets what one pays for.


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## Phil32

I had better luck with the Schaaf fishtails. They were well shaped and sharp. I was able to commission them to my use within a short time. I have been using Pfeil fishtails a lot and found the Schaafs to be comparable.


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## Foghorn

I have a Warren fishtail gouge that I use a lot when carving archtop plates. Not designed for mallet work but I've been impressed with the steel and edge holding right out of the box. Made in USA!


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## Dark_Lightning

> I had better luck with the Schaaf fishtails. They were well shaped and sharp. I was able to commission them to my use within a short time. I have been using Pfeil fishtails a lot and found the Schaafs to be comparable.
> 
> - Phil32


I bought the set that has the 3F-6, 5F-14, 7F-6 and 7F-14. The 7Fs were the worst for the front edge, and I mean wavy. The 3F-6 and the 7F-6 indeed had, within .5mm, a 6mm front edge, but only had 1mm of "fishtail", and that was back a couple of inches. That's a long skinny fish, where I come from. What kind of taper do you have on yours? Like I say, I can grind them to be "fishier". I'm not trying to bust any chops here, I'm simply curious about other's experiences.

My experience with Pfeil is more in line with what I expect from a machined tool. I designed tools for many years (working in aerospace and defense, where they had better be right) so maybe that is coloring my thinking.


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## RWE

I had problems with the same fishtail set, from Amazon. Schaaf was very forthcoming and sent a replacement set with no requirement that I return the defective set. Only one of the fishtails was defective, so I gifted the others to a young friend of mine to get him started with carving.

I think based on Hokie's input, that the bad gouge had a pit or defective area on one side of the edge and it would never hold an edge.

I have been generally pleased with the Schaaf chisels. Send them a note they will probably replace the set.


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## Dark_Lightning

I can and have repaired carving tools. I'll have these made good in the next couple of days. I just wanted to make people aware. Other people have already commented on how they had to "commission" those tools. Replacing the set, and getting something similar isn't something I'm interested in.


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## RWE

The defect in the metal (call it a bubble or a pitting) would have required removing over a 1/4 to 3/8 or more of the edge. The fishtail was not that pronounced on those gouges anyway, so I would have wound up with a stub.

All of the tools in the replacement set were fine. All I am saying is that you have to give the company some credit. They may have defective tools periodically, but they do well to replace them for you.

I was not happy with my v-chisel, mainly due to my inadequate sharpening skills on the Schaal v-chisel. I went to Lee Valley and bought a Hirsh which is a very nice chisel as shipped. I paid for that quality out of the gate. I suppose it depends on your budget, but Schaaf will get you started and then maybe you can fill in the gaps with a better quality tool. That is my approach.


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## Phil32

> Every cutting edge is a compromise between sharpness and durability. . . When you find the right compromise, don t mess with it.
> 
> - Phil32


Apparently I haven't found the compromise with my current pocket knife. It is an unnamed drop point "hand forged" in China from 440 Stainless. I do not use it for wood carving. It will not hold an edge. It will briefly take an edge that will cut string or package tape, but by the next day it won't cut anything.


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## Dark_Lightning

OK, I "ground" the two 14mm fishtails on a 1k grit wheel and then honed them with the cardboard disk that is on the flip side of that glass disk on my WorkSharp 3000. They came out good enough to use, in my universe. Just to be clear, I still wouldn't buy any more tools from Schaaf. If anyone from the company is watching this, please don't send me anything. I have a better source for what I expect.


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## Karda

I know how you feel, the Yellowhammer set I got are good tools. I expected they would be un sharpened and with only a basic bevel but these bevel were just place holder the tools had way to much steel on they where you hand to machine them down to a point where you can start making a bevel. a skilled carver would know how to do this but not a beginner and this is a beginner set aimed at the unskilled, they should keep that in mind when they make thew tools


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## HokieKen

Sorry to hear about your experience with Schaaf Steven. I've been very pleased with my set even though they do require extensive "commissioning" up front. I don't have any of their fishtails though.

I've been doing a bit of whittling recently as opposed to relief carving. Mostly because I haven't had time to be in the shop much and the weather has been so nice that when I do have down time to kill, I like to be outdoors. I have a project in mind to make a Bighorn Sheep after a recent encounter hiking in the Grand Canyon. I couldn't come up with a pattern I liked though (I'm far from skilled when it comes to drawing and hopeless at carving anything without a pattern) so I bought this book on Amazon. It's geared more to power carving and not really a "beginner" book because it has very little detail on how to do the actual carving. But, after looking through it, I feel like I more than got my money's worth just in the patterns. If you like to carve/whittle animals and want some really nice patterns, I recommend it.


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## HokieKen

Posting to bump this back onto my pulse page ;-)

I'll be heading to the beach week after next so I'm working at getting some carving projects prepped and making sure all of my tools are commissioned. I still have yet to begin my 3 Hares carving so I'm taking it with me. Unfortunately the two Pfeil 2a L/R 3mm gouges I orderd in January are still on backorder :-( So are the 5mm. My choices in stock are 2mm or 8mm and I don't want either. So, I'm just gonna do what I can with what I have and if I need to wait for those to finish the corners I will.

I have commissioned the Sculpture House tools I got several months ago from Mountain Woodcarvers and given them some test runs. I'm extremely happy with them other than some sloppy handles. But for $10 a pop they are well worth the money. They still have a pretty big selection of the tools on their website at the blowout prices. I placed an order today for a 5mm shortbent flat chisel, a 5mm shortbent skew chisel and a 3mm shortbent #3 gouge. Getting into small tight spots effectively has plagued me in my first few reliefs so I'm working towards getting better in that area. They only sell the shortbent skews in one configuration (no left/right hand pairs) so my plan is to grind the 5mm flat chisel to a skew in the opposite direction of the shortbent skew.

I also have a couple of figures in process for some friends' kids that they requested. They're twin boys and one asked for a baby Yoda and one asked for an "old" Yoda. So I've been cutting on those intermittently for a few months now. The bad thing is I can't remember which one wanted which. I sure hope they remember :-/

And I have a pattern for a Bighorn Sheep. I'm gonna prep a blank to take but I doubt I'll be fortunate enough to finish the 3 Hares carving and still have time left to start another project. But hey, it's vacation, a fella can dream, right?


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## Lazyman

I am sure that they will both want whichever one looks the coolest. How about and old Yoda holding a baby Yoda?


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## HokieKen

Oh I'm gonna make them commit to who's getting which before I show them either one ;-) And I like Yoda but I'm pretty sure after these, I'll be done with carving him. Pointy little fingers and toes and long, thin, fragile ears are a PITA.


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## Phil32

Hokie - Most of the skews I have are double beveled, so I don't need left & right. I also bought the Pfeil 2a L/R but find I use the right most. As I've said before, I like the fishtails the best. I rarely have undercuts deep enough to require short bent tools. 
Phil


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## HokieKen

These are short bent skews Phil so I'm assuming they're single bevel. It would be mighty awkward to try to flip it over and use it  I've been considering the Schaaf fishtails based solely on your endorsement. But for the time being I wanted to gather a few smaller tools based on challenges I've encountered in the reliefs I have done so far.


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## Phil32

Yes, those Pfeil 2a gouges are spoon bent skews so they cannot be switched left or right. Remember that gouges are not limited to to cuts matching their width, curvature, etc. For example, if you want to cut a V-groove 2mm wide, you can cut that groove with an 8 mm wide V-tool (or wider). I may use a #3 - 20 mm gouge, but I rarely make a 20 mm cut. You don't have to make long bent cuts with a long bent gouge.


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## HokieKen

Haven't even sliced into the Three Hares. Spent what little carving time I had this week on these dawdles. This is the Basswood I was asking about a while back that seems stringy and dry. It's hard to get good clean surfaces or get any fine detail in.


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## Lazyman

Dank Farrik that's not bad. I have spoken.


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## Dark_Lightning

That might be tupelo, Kenny. Try carving it only in the grain direction to see if that helps. Tupelo takes knives or power tools. I've not seen this with basswood, except if a tool was dull.


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## HokieKen

Maybe it is Tupelo then. Whatever it is, I'm throwing the rest away when I get home. It's extremely frustrating.


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## Dark_Lightning

Yeah, my grape leaf green man was made of tupelo. I gave the remainder of the board to a guy who did power carving.


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## HokieKen

I don't notmally sand my whittles but I think I will these since they are gifts. I was able to smooth the easily accessed areas pretty well but the tighter hard to reach spots are just ugly. I might even break down and paint these since they're for kids.


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## controlfreak

A video by carver Alexander Grabovetskiy that had "work sharp" in it cought my eye because I have a worksharp. Anyway he talked about how he liked it but stopped short of demonstrating any technique. I suspect it was a teaser before subscribing or becoming a member. Not that I oppose that but I am on the free side of Mary May as a starter now. Has anyone seen him using the worksharp in action?


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## HokieKen

I have CF. It was in a Facebook video IIRC. Pretty sure he was using the Tormek bar attachment (no longer available) and Tormek jigs. Which is how I shape and do the commissioning on most of my gouges as well. I think I posted a link to that video in this thread but I couldn't tell you when.

Edit: It was a FB live video he did on April 22 of 2020. It won't play for me now without logging into FB and I don't have a FB account.


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## Lazyman

Not sure if it is the same video you are talking about but at about 45 minutes in you can see him using the Worksharp. The entire video is titled How to sharpen a spoon gouge.


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## HokieKen

I didn't get to take the first shaving from my Three Hares carving all week after hauling my vise to the beach. Partly because I was drinking and riding my motorcycle when I wasn't playing with the grandkids and partly because every table in the house we rented was lightweight and had a glass top.

I was aggravated about it so as soon as I got unloaded after getting home, I made a point to line in a couple of areas so this project is officially launched.


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## HokieKen

I have a tool question…

I was working on my Three Hares a little more last night and using a deep gouge to lower the larger sections. I was using a #9-10mm gouge made by Mifer. But I decided I needed something a little bigger for the biggest section. I didn't have anything in a deep sweep that looked appropriate so I went to my Schaaf tool roll.

I bought the 12 piece Schaaf set last year but have just been commissioning one at a time as needed so 8 or 9 of the tools are still in the roll with the factory grind. One of those tools was a #9-10mm. The same size as the one I had been using. But geeze, it looked so much bigger.

So I got out my caliper and measured the Mifer. Sure enough, 9.86mm across the wings. Then I measured the Schaaf and it was 11.77mm across the wings. So, to my mind that's a 12mm gouge. Am I wrong about that?

I meant to measure some of the other gouges and see if there were similar discrepancies. And I'm not complaining. It's actually fortunate for me because I already had a 10mm gouge in that sweep and the 12mm was a good size for what I needed at the time.

But, my question is: *Is the size of a gouge always the measurement across the wings or is it common for some manufacturers to measure size some other way?* I know there is some slight difference between the #9 profiles in the Sheffield and European charts but AFAIK, that shouldn't have any bearing on how the size is measured and stated.

Since I didn't measure any of the other Schaaf gouges to see, I decided to see if they offered a #9-12mm gouge and maybe I had gotten one that was just mislabeled at manufacture. But, I didn't see a 12mm in that sweep even offered in any of their sets. So I don't think that's the case.


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## Dark_Lightning

No guarantees on the size, that's for sure. I have a pair of Ashley Isles chisels, 2A and 2B. Supposed to be 3/16", but one is almost 1/4".


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## Karda

I was watching a video one time for got who did it but they were a well known wood worker on utube. He had a chisel gripe, American size chisels were metric sized. He use the .5" chisel for measuring and can't because they are metric. at least that what his experience was. you can count on measurement any more, you can't even count on lumber being the size you buy


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## Phil32

I cannot think of a carving process which calls for using the exact width of a gouge. The curvature of most gouges is intended to keep the wings out of the cut to reduce tearing or ragged edges. During roughing stages the removal of wood can be accomplished with many tool shapes. The choice may be a matter of whether or not you're using a mallet. Progressing to modeling or shaping, the sweep begins to be make a difference - but not the width. 
The variation in the exact width of gouges is probably a matter of quality control during manufacture. The final processes are traditionally done by hand on individual gouges. The sweep and width are probably pre-stamped.


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## HokieKen

Thanks Steven. I think I'll pick a few tools from different makers tonight and measure and see how much variation there is. Like I said, in this case it worked to my advantage but, if I already had a 12mm and wanted a 10mm, I would be in touch with Schaaf wanting a replacement or at least an explanation.

Karda, I'm pretty adept at mentally switching back and forth between mm and inches after being a machinist and an engineer. I don't ever trust a stated size on any chisel if the cut I'm making is critical. I always measure for myself.


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## HokieKen

> I cannot think of a carving process which calls for using the exact width of a gouge. The curvature of most gouges is intended to keep the wings out of the cut to reduce tearing or ragged edges. During roughing stages the removal of wood can be accomplished with many tool shapes. The choice may be a matter of whether or not you re using a mallet. Progressing to modeling or shaping, the sweep begins to be make a difference - but not the width.
> The variation in the exact width of gouges is probably a matter of quality control during manufacture. The final processes are traditionally done by hand on individual gouges. The sweep and width are probably pre-stamped.
> 
> - Phil32


I agree completely that the actual width isn't a big deal. However, if I have a 12mm gouge and decide to order a 10mm in the same sweep to compliment it, I'm not going to be very happy if it shows up and is the same size as the one I already have. And yes, I know I could use the 12mm to make a 10mm wide cut. My main purpose for asking the brain trust here is determining whether or not this is something I need to be concerned with when ordering tools online in the future. If I order an 8mm and a 12mm gouge, do I need to worry that when they show up they're both going to measure 10mm wide?


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## Lazyman

Is width actually taken before they put the sweep on it? If so, a deeper sweep would obviously be narrower. So maybe it is the sweep that isn't the same between the 2 chisels you are comparing? I just measured all of my standard gouges which just happen to be Pfeil (or labeled Swiss made anyway) and they are all just slightly smaller than the labeled size. None of mine are very deep sweeps and I don't have any duplicates so I could not test my theory within the single brand even.


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## Phil32

The main reason to have more than one gouge of a specific sweep and width is, when the tool you're working with seems dull, you can say to yourself "maybe the other is still sharp. Now where did I put it?"


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## HokieKen

Best I can tell, the width is the final width across the wings after the sweep is put in Nathan. If you look at a scaled chart of sweeps/sizes, that's how it plays out. At least in the Sheffield list. I don't have a scaled chart of the Pfeil sweeps so I can't say with certainty but, I'm fairly sure it's the same. In any case, a gouge labeled 10mm shouldn't measure just under 12mm I don't think. It seems they would measure just under the stated width by however much the short leg of the bevel angle is on each side. And I'm sure there's probably a tolerance of +/- a mm or so to be expected in any gouges that are forged vs machined.

Edit to add: And I don't think the sweep actually comes into play with the width at all. I think a 10mm gouge should be 10mm across the corners regardless of whether it's a skew, a #3 sweep or a #9 sweep. Width should be constant, only the radius and arc length should vary with sweep profile. At least that's the way I understand it.


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## HokieKen

Okay, ignore my post about tool widths yesterday. I measured some tools last night and everything seemed to be oversized. Then it dawned on me…* the width is across the inside of the wings, not the outside*. Duh. I knew that but when comparing the Mifer and Schaaf, both 10mm, the Schaaf looks so much bigger. And it is because the steel is so much thicker than the thin-walled, forged Mifer gouge.

So ignore my ramblings and postulations. The Schaaf gouge is appropriately sized and labeled…


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## HokieKen

I'm well under way now!


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## controlfreak

Looking good there Kenny, I hope my doughnut turns out that nice!


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## Lazyman

I might have to walk down to Dunkin Donuts this morning.


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## HokieKen

I'm kinda aggravated with myself because I fouled my line in two places.









I can't decide whether to try to modify my pattern to hide the oopsies or just live with them or flip the board over and start anew. I'm tempted to lay the pattern out on the other side and work through each step twice. First on this side to see what I F-up then flip the board over and repeat on the "keeper" side hopefully sans F-ups.


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## DanKrager

Hokie, did it bother you in kindergarten to color outside the lines too? LOL. It bothered me. The more you do this the more you will realize that minor adjustments to "the line" are par for the course. Mary Kay showed a technique that I've used ever since that elevates cutter control to unbelievable levels previously only dreamed about. Between sharpness and taking appropriately sized chips the line following problem all but goes away. The ultimate test of control is to follow a curvy line with a 60° V tool and maintain a constant depth. As I've gotten older, cheaters help me visualize the area just ahead of the cut and help immensely to know what the cutter is doing and about to do given the grain direction, which is more noticeable under magnification.

There's a lot of apparent tear out which indicates dullness, too much chip, or something not optimal. Wood type matters some, but I've learned to seek after crisp cuts all the time so when it matters, it's just a matter of course.

Of course, YMMV, but these work for me.

DanK


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## DanKrager

Another thought. Free and worth as much. After studying the picture for a bit I realized something that should have jumped out at me. The technique I've learned outlines the design using either a veining tool or V chopping cuts with a gouge whose sweep matches the curve. This establishes a smooth side wall and uniform depth to lower the background with whatever technique is appropriate for the area.

It's worth considering sequence when carving. I tend not to plan ahead and find awkwardness with a vengeance!

DanK


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## HokieKen

Yes Dan, I agree on all fronts  This is just the rough-in and lowering stage. So I started by using a v-tool to line in around all the large areas being careful to stay well inside the lines. Then I used a deep gouge to hog out the bulk of the material to just shy of my intended relief depth. Then I went back with a deep gouge and "nibbled" the angled edges down to vertical (but extremely rough) to the same depth as I lowered the rest too. I think this nibbling is what looks like tearout in the photo. That's where I'm at now. The exception being this one section that's obviously more refined:









The only reason that section is smoother is because I was commissioning a new shortbent gouge and was using that area to test my bevel angle and cutting edge.

So my next step will be to "set in" the edges (to use Chris Pye's terminology) which is what I think you're referring to. I'll use gouges that match the curve of my lines to set clean, crisp, vertical walls directly on my pattern lines and to the final depth of relief. Then the next stage will be "levelling" where I'll use shallower gouges to remove all the ridges I have now and lower the entire floor to a clean flat surface at the final depth.

At least that's the plan. I have my doubts as to whether or not it will proceed as well for me as it does for Chris Pye in his video tutorial series I'm following on this project ;-P


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## Phil32

This 3 Hare pattern presents each hare at a different angle to the wood grain, so every edge line is unique. I think your "oopsies" can be avoided by defining your stop cuts carefully and the shaving cuts cleanly. This is similar to the technique Dan Krager is describing, but I would not attempt it with a V-tool.


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## HokieKen

Yeah, those two "oopsies" were nothing other than carelessness. Like I said, the next step should define my side walls. And you're right on with the grain direction. I've gotten in the habit of making a shallow test cut in each section so I can see which way the grain is running in that spot before I go to cutting in earnest.


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## Phil32

With the photos shown, you still have some adjustment in the outer border.


----------



## Brit

> Okay, ignore my post about tool widths yesterday. I measured some tools last night and everything seemed to be oversized. Then it dawned on me…* the width is across the inside of the wings, not the outside*. Duh. I knew that but when comparing the Mifer and Schaaf, both 10mm, the Schaaf looks so much bigger. And it is because the steel is so much thicker than the thin-walled, forged Mifer gouge.
> 
> So ignore my ramblings and postulations. The Schaaf gouge is appropriately sized and labeled…
> 
> - HokieKen


I'm not laughing Kenny, honestly I'm not. ) Perhaps the best way of measuring a true gouge (sweep #3 through #9) on the Sheffield List is to push the tool vertically into a piece of scrap wood and measure the impression it leaves rather than the tool itself.

Great to see you've started the Three Hares Kenny, you're going to love that carving. I've got as far as buying some more Lime to make another one. I found I had to work hard to keep my carving clean as I progressed and that leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask here. Does anyone wear white gloves when carving lighter woods to avoid the transfer of oils from your hands? Chris Pye says he buys white cotton gloves and cuts the fingers off the thumb and first two fingers like this.










Personally I didn't think I would like wearing those loose fitting gloves and the fraying edges of the cut fingers would drive me nuts. However I thought the idea was a good one so I started looking for an alternative and I discovered that cricketers wear fingerless cotton gloves. I'm not talking about the heavy protective gloves they wear when they go in to bat and stupidly stand in front of a hard leather ball travelling towards them at up to 100mph. Obviously they wouldn't do much to assist your carving.










No, I'm talking about the cotton fingerless gloves they wear inside these gloves.




























They seemed ideal, so I bought a few pairs because they're dirt cheap. You can get them on Amazon. I used them when carving my Three Hares project and they worked really well. I didn't even know I was wearing them and they went a long way to keep the surface of the wood free from sweat and the oils from my hands. Obviously they can be washed and used again until they fall apart.

Just curious if anyone else wears gloves when carving lighter coloured wood.


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## HokieKen

I hadn't even thought about that Andy. Those look like they would be pretty comfortable though and keeping Basswood clean while carving is dang near impossible for me. I figure I'll just put some oil on it when I'm done to hide all of the incidental oils that I transfer in the process. I have some gloves similar to those that I wear for bow hunting. I would try using those to see if it helps but they're camouflage and I'm afraid I won't be able to see where I put my hands.


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## Lazyman

I wear cut proof chef's gloves because it seems like I am always nicking my fingers. Cutting the finger tips off would defeat the purpose. Those Pfeil gouges come sharp and ready to use. It keeps the blood as well as the oils from my hands off the wood. I wish the weave was a little finer because they do sometimes snag on any rough spots which can be a little annoying.


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## Dark_Lightning

I don't wear gloves unless I am carving something with high relief and I'd be scraping my hands on it. I just scrub with soap and water if I get the thing filthy. Those gloves are just some work gloves from Lowe's. I do have a Kevlar glove, but it's bulky and stiff, so I usually carve gloveless, and only carve away from my body parts.


----------



## HokieKen

I have some cutproof gloves I bought for whittling because I do find I bleed a lot on those projects. But, I rarely wear them. I have a little scrap of leather that I attach to my thumb with electrical tape and prevents the majority of the injuries. So far, I don't think I've cut myself while carving relief. I almost always have both hands on the tool so that makes it a little safer


----------



## Phil32

Alaskan Yellow Cedar is especially bad at picking up hand oils. I wash my hands with soap to reduce the transfer of hand oils & dirt. Basswood is not nearly as bad.


----------



## Peteybadboy

I am new to carving. I am using a dremel


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## HokieKen

That's pretty cool Petey  Bears are fun subjects to carve. The geometry is pretty simple but they make for interesting and visually appealing projects.


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## MikeB_UK

> I have some cutproof gloves I bought for whittling because I do find I bleed a lot on those projects. But, I rarely wear them. I have a little scrap of leather that I attach to my thumb with electrical tape and prevents the majority of the injuries. So far, I don t think I ve cut myself while carving relief. I almost always have both hands on the tool so that makes it a little safer
> 
> - HokieKen


I got some leather thumb guards with elastic straps on the back with a card scraper once.
Admittedly they were sized for someone with the hands of a 5 year old, but the basic idea was sound and is probably easier than taping it to your thumb each time.


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## Lazyman

I have some of those leather finger and glove guards that I use when whittling though I use the gloves when roughing out the shape. I have used small leather finger guards when sanding small pieces on my belt sander to avoid sanded knuckles.


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## HokieKen

Mine started out the same Mike. It was also sized the same so the elastic lasted about 12 seconds. Rather than try to fix it or ordering a different one, I just used electrical tape. I keep a roll in my carving kit anyway because that and paper towels are my "bandages" for pesky cuts that won't quit bleeding in spots where a band-aid is awkward


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## Lazyman

I bought these thumb guards in 2015 and the elastic is still in good shape.


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## mpounders

I use the Bantex carving tape to wrap my thumb guards. I cut the fingers and thumbs off old gloves. and then use the Bantex to make them fit tightly. I wrap a bit around it to hold it snug to my thumb and then use 2-3 inch strips to cover the end of the thumb guard. Then I finish it up with the Bantex tape to make it as thich as I like. The thumb guard protects your thumb and the Bantex keeps the guard from being cut. You can add more tape as it gets cut up a bit or ripe it all off and start over. It makes it easy to take the thumb guard off and put it back on and offers a lot of cut protection I use the vet wrap adhesive tape sometimes for comfort, but the Bantex tape lasts longer is more re-usable.


----------



## Phil32

I can honestly say I haven't cut myself while carving for at least ten years. Nearly all of my carvings are reliefs that I do with gouges held in both hands and the workpiece clamped down. During this time I have completed dozens of months-long relief projects. I don't use gloves or thumb guards. I pay attention to where each gouge cut could go.

I distinctly remember the last cut (to myself). It was at the 2009 Woodcarver's Rendezvous near Spokane. (Tom Ellis will remember.) I decided to try carving cottonwood bark and was putting the finishing cuts on a Green Man. While holding it in my hand, I made a small cut with a #3-3mm gouge. It slipped and got me in the gap between two fingers of my left hand - a really tough place to apply a band-aid. I survived okay & learned a lesson.


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## Karda

back in the day when I was a certified snot nose kid my father used finger guards like Nathans for trolling with copper. He could pull the copper with out losing a finger


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## Dark_Lightning

What did the "copper" think of that, being trolled?


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## Karda

I don't know I never asked and it never complained, it just followed the boat and from time to time it caught a fish


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## MikeB_UK

Just saw this on ebay - this is just showing off


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## Brit

Hilarious. That would drive me nuts using that gouge.


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## Karda

must be the noise keeps him company, kinda breaks the silence, me I prefer a radio


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## rad457

Have been picking up some Hirsch carving Chisels from L. V. over the years, after watching a couple of Mary May's Videos, tried one of her simple projects, not perfect, but I am actually amazed that it actually looks sort of like what is supposed to Already have a few more chisels on the wish list.


----------



## controlfreak

I am still waiting on three of my starter set carving chisels, ordered by my wife as a Fathers day gift to me. Because it was a gift I don't even know which ones I am missing. I am disappointed in Woodcraft for not revealing that it (the order) would not arrive complete. I have postponed starting my carving because of this but it may be time to just move to another vendor, this is ridiculous.


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## RWE

> Have been picking up some Hirsch carving Chisels from L. V. over the years, after watching a couple of Mary May s Videos, tried one of her simple projects, not perfect, but I am actually amazed that it actually looks sort of like what is supposed to Already have a few more chisels on the wish list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Andre


Looks good.

I have done three of the Mary May flower carving that you show. It is a nice project and each one got a little better. Have not had time recently to do any more carving. Like you, I have been adding some Hirsh chisels to go with Schaaf set that I started with.


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## HokieKen

I decided to take a run at this Hatfield and McCoy chess set:









We went camping ove tge weekend so I took the opportunity to start a couple of the rough-ins.









We'll see if this one ever makes out out of infancy…


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## drsurfrat

whoa, that's 32 carvings. If there's anyone that can get it done, it's you.


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## Karda

you can do it I know you can. What wood are you using


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## HokieKen

LOL. I'm not sure my ADD will make it through doing all those pawns the same Mike. And I'm not sure if I'm up for painting all those either. But for now, the whittling is holding my attention so it'll be what travels with me and what stays in my truck or saddlebags for when I have time to kill.

Using Basswood Karda. At least for now. I may decide to do one set in basswood and the other in Walnut and skip the painting…


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## Brit

That should keep you out of mischief.


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## drsurfrat

You could switch it up and make the pawns simpler, like a shorter version of the tree stump without the moonshine. Then make both bishops the preacher - maybe a snake handler.


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## Karda

I have found the same problem. i have found i don't need to change for very long to re focus. maybe work on one figure for a short period then go to another that requires a different set of techniques, such starting one then moving to another that is closer to finish, just an idea


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## donwilwol

That's jumping in with both feet…....in the deep end! It's going to be a good one too follow!


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## HokieKen

The moonshine jug on the stump is my favorite piece of the lot Mike so I'll keep it ;-) It's not the complexity of the pawns that gives me pause so much as just doing the same thing 8 times for each side. Seems like it'll get boring…. But it's about the "doing" not the "finishing" so if I get bored, I'll just quit  It's not a gift and I play about one game of chess every 5 years so it's not like I need a personal set.


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## Karda

ok


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## drsurfrat

> ...so if I get bored, I'll just quit
> - HokieKen


You say that, but I don't think you can *do* that. 

I, on the other hand, don't mind quitting. Here is a set I turned and carved, shown in the middle of a game teaching my daughter to play. The board is cardboard and Sharpie (notice the fancy red edge), and the box for the pieces says 'Glenlivet'


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## rad457

You can do it Kenny I made 3 trips to the Wet Coast while doing Inside Passage, 1200 km or about 15 hr drive, I used to tell the instructor that I carved my shelf pins on the road, that is what cruise control is for Did one trip on the bike. ( throttle lock ) didn't work as well?

Any opinions on Fishtail gouges, yay or nay?


----------



## Karda

you carved while driving on cruse control hope you carried a good vacuum with you


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## HokieKen

Well Mike, together we've got it done. I have a board I made my granfather a couple of years ago to play checkers. I re-acquired it earlier this year when he passed away. That was really the main reason I decided on a chess set. I've got a board with no pieces.


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## Karda

thats a good reason. do 1 till its done then farm out the painting. My brother in law used to do that, he made crafts and his wife painted


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## rad457

Digging around in the wall cabinet and came across these, forgot I even had them. Very nice to hold, think they will be great for detail work.


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## Brit

Took a saw to two of my Wood is Good urethane mallets today. I have all four of the weights that they make (12, 18, 20 and 30 ounce) and after much consideration, I've decided that I'm going to make the 18 and 20 ounce mallets my main carving mallets. In my opinion, the standard handle is too long for a carving mallet. I also rounded over the bottom edge of the urethane heads so they don't have such a sharp corner.











__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content



















Out of curiosity I weighed the 18 and 20 ounce mallets prior to doctoring them and to my surprise the 18 ounce mallet weighed in at 21.5 ounces and the 20 ounce mallet at 22 ounces. Not sure why I'm sharing that, just thought it was strange.


----------



## MikeB_UK

> Out of curiosity I weighed the 18 and 20 ounce mallets prior to doctoring them and to my surprise the 18 ounce mallet weighed in at 21.5 ounces and the 20 ounce mallet at 22 ounces. Not sure why I m sharing that, just thought it was strange.
> 
> - Brit


Fairly sure hammer weights are just the head - so the extra is the handle.


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## Brit

That would explain it Mike. Thanks.


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## Phil32

The original shape of the mallet handles assumed the user would hold the mallet in a certain way. Most mallet users have discovered multiple ways to give added control or lessen the stress on their mallet hand.


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## Brit

Very true Phil. I'll keep the other two mallet handles the way they are as I'll use the 12oz for chopping dovetails and the 30oz for chopping mortises, both activities where you are standing back somewhat and sighting to see if the respective chisels are vertical.


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## RWE

I am posting this here and on the chisel thread. Any feedback would be appreciated.

I ran across a tool that the vendor described as a "tool handle". I looks like the handle of an egg beater drill. At the tip, it has a twist mechanism and a set of 4 jaws to lock in the chosen bit. The cap of the handle unscrews and there were four tips in total.

However, I was thinking it was a crazy screw driver, but upon inspection, the tips were for wood carving. One gouge, two flat single bevel chisels, and one pointed tools that I guess is intended to be used for ornamentation on carving.

I thought it was cool, but upon consideration, I could not see myself using it. I would not want to have to swap out blades and such.

My guess is that it was meant for a wood carver to have a portable travel tool, store your tips in the handle and off you go. I thought it was too pricey at $30 or so dollars so I passed.

Anyone ever seen such an animal? Maybe they are rare as hen's teeth and worth hundreds?? Probably not, but it was different.

Could not find a brand/trademark.


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## DLK

These are "multi-tools" and were sold with various collection of bits for different purposes, such as carving, leather work, jewelry etc. I own two.


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## HokieKen

I have two Millers Falls versions of those multi-tools. Definitely more of a novelty than actually useful but they are pretty neat IMO. I think that one is a Goodell Pratt version with the winged chuck nut.


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## Dark_Lightning

When I considered forging my own chisels and gouges in some unproduced shapes, I looked for a tool like this to hold them, rather than making a ton of handles. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, as there didn't seem to be many examples. I dropped the self-made tool idea, since I've discovered a lot of what I wanted manufactured by Ashley Isles. But, depending on the size of the chuck, I still may be interested. I was looking for 3/16" and 5/16". I might reconsider my position on making "bits" for a handle like this.


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## DLK

Actually I have found them useful for time to time. Particularly, with the awl, reamer, scribe, and tiny screwdriver bits. I have also used it with a screw extractor bit and a small tap. I'll post what I have tomorrow.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Thinking about it I did make one as a travel one when I was making those dodgy carving tools of mine.
Wenge wasn't the greatest choice of wood for a tool handle, and I can't carve - but other than that it works well.

At least the pin vice sees some use, and that fishtail is great for cleaing out half blind dovetails.


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## RWE

> When I considered forging my own chisels and gouges in some unproduced shapes, I looked for a tool like this to hold them, rather than making a ton of handles. I didn t spend a lot of time on it, as there didn t seem to be many examples. I dropped the self-made tool idea, since I ve discovered a lot of what I wanted manufactured by Ashley Isles. But, depending on the size of the chuck, I still may be interested. I was looking for 3/16" and 5/16". I might reconsider my position on making "bits" for a handle like this.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


I checked Ebay last night. There were listings for "Antique Multi-tool" and one was buy it now for around $20.00. It is the same model that I ran across. Around $5 shipping. I think the chuck would accommodate those sizes but get Bandit to verify that. I just played with it a bit in the Antique Mall and did not note the expansion capability with any specificity, but my impression was that it could expand to 5/16" easily.


----------



## HokieKen

I just have several modern hand chucks that I find more comfortable than the Millers Falls tools I have. The ones I have are similar to this one:









They can be had for around $20 in good shape with a good selection of bits on Ebay if one is patient. I've never really paid much attention to the ones made by other companies.


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## HokieKen

FWIW, here is information I've compiled on all the different "multi-tools" Millers Falls made over the years.


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## RWE

I was interested to see that the #49 had what I thought was a split nut screwdriver. Once i zoomed in, it turns out to be a bicycle tool. I guess the wrench part is for the spokes?

Anyway, it is nice line up of multi-tools. I have always like the Millers Falls egg beater drills and this looks like an interesting sideline/outgrowth of that tool area. Thanks for posting.


----------



## HokieKen

I've never seen the #49 or the #6 out in the wild. And I've never seen a MF branded #600. It was a carry-over from the Goodell-Pratt acquisition and I've seen GP versions but never a Millers Falls one. The #4 and #5 are fairly common and are the two models I own. The #1s pop up from time to time but rarely with all of the bits. I would like to get my hands on a #1 just so I have all 3 of the Cocobolo ones and all of the bits. Apparently they made a #2 which is just a handle like the #4 with no bits and made of maple. But I've never seen one of those either.


----------



## MikeB_UK

Is this a 1?
Looks like the bits are the same, probably a bit spendy though


----------



## HokieKen

Yep that's a #1 Mike. A nice example too and the first one I've seen complete with all the bits. But yeah, the price is a little steep I think. At least on this side of the pond.


----------



## MikeB_UK

I'll try and remember to keep an eye out for a cheapo one.
Not that popular a brand over here so sometimes they sell for not a lot.

As long as I don't look when I've been drinking I should be fine, I am currently the confused owner of an Extensometer that I don't even remember bidding on, at least it was cheap


----------



## DLK

Here are the *three *multi-tools I have collected.











The left one will take a quarter inch shank and I bought a set of modern reamers to fit it.
The middle one is a Miller Falls #1 with its boat load of bits. See the catalog entry Ken above.
The right one is a random one I found rust hunting.


----------



## HokieKen

I'm in the Smoky Mountains with the family this week. In the afternoons I can get outside and finally get back to my 3 Hares project 









But it's been below freezing the past 2 mornings so I move inside on my recently made lap tray for some whittling.









Now if these people would just leave me alone for the rest of the day…


----------



## rad457

You guys get me in so much trouble Another item for the Grangirls to sell off!


----------



## rad457

> You guys get me in so much trouble Another item for the Grangirls to sell off!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Andre


Checked this one out, no name on it, just, Pat. 12.1884 ?


----------



## HokieKen

I'm gaving a hard time with clean, sharp junctures. Again ;-)









I have watched the Chris Pye videos and know how it's supposed to happen. I just can't seem to get the stan cuts that establish the walls and the bottom cuts to meet up properly. Anybody got any "duh-huh" kinda advice for me?


----------



## rad457

I like to watch Mary May for my inspiration Grand Daughter picked up a Floret I had carved in the shop and wanted to Paint it, was shocked at first but thinking now, maybe mix up some Milk paint and let her have at it?


----------



## Brit

Looks like you just need a bit more practice Kenny. It can be a bit fiddly. I think once I was in the ball park, I pared the thinnest shavings off the walls so I didn't apply too much downward pressure and therefore didn't stab into the background too much. Once I was happy with the walls, I used the Pfeil 2a spoon bent gouges to pare whisper thin shavings from the background with a slicing motion whilst resting my hand closest to the business end of the gouge on the surface of the wood. You also need to make sure you working with the grain so as to avoid pulling up a chunk. I think I also used a scalpel to nick some of the shavings off in those tight corners.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Andy. A big part of my problem is not stabbing to a consistent depth when setting in the walls. Then when I do the levelling, I have to go deeper in some spots and then in other spots I'll go errant when trying to clean the juncture and end up chasing my tail. I did make some strides yesterday and got used to making clean up cuts with a small skew instead of flat gouges. That helped in a lot of areas.

My Pfeil 2a's are still on backorder after 15 months but I sure wish I had them now! I have some 3mm short bent #3s that I ground to a pair of skews. But I should have skewed them more. The won't get into the tighter corners.

In any case, it's relaxing and I'm learning a ton  It's not gonna end up being a keeper though I'm pretty sure ;-) It may be shop decor when I'm done.


----------



## HokieKen

Closing out vacation with a fair amount of progress and a free afternoon


----------



## Phil32

Ken - It may be too early to worry about clean, sharp junctures and background smoothness. What shaping will you give the three hares? Will the leg behind the prominent front leg be at the same level? Will the body curve downward to the background? What will be the depth of the circle around the three hares? Do you plan to carve a frame in the square containing the entire design?

I see this design as a relief carving, so the earliest steps are to establish the various levels and the transitions between them. Some of the edges may need to be undercut for emphasis. 
Phil Allin


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Phil. You're exactly right, some areas will be easier to finish after shaping the bodies. For now I'm just focusing on tbe junctures that won't be touched again. At least in theory. I'm following a tutorial by Chris Pye so I'm attempting to replicate his process in the hope of replicating his results to some degree. It's an exercise in learning more than having a finished piece as the ultimate goal. I imagine I'll end up flipping the board and doing another practice project on the back side rather than displaying this one any where…


----------



## rad457

Have been adding to many new chisels, had to expand the storage, left room to add a few more?








Then decided, needed something on the bench for storage.


----------



## HokieKen

Very nice Andre  I like the carved flower on there.


----------



## HokieKen

Got a small clip-on light to add to my lap tray. Now I can sit in my recliner in the dark, have a beer and watch TV and still make some shavings


----------



## Karda

thats a neat tray how do you keep it off the floor


----------



## HokieKen

You mean how do I keep the chips off the floor? That's what the tray is for ;-) It wouldn't work well when roughing something out for me because I tend to send chips flying several feet when I'm hogging off large chunks with a sloyd. But once I get it roughly shaped, the tray contains the chips extremely well for me. I do occasionally find a bunch clinging to my belly when I'm doing really small details and holding the work close so I can see better but otherwise, it's the cat's pajamas 

If anyone else is interested, I got the idea from this article. I modified the size to suit the chairs where I figure I'll be most likely using it and I replaced the bottom and the "belly wall" with hardboard. I also closed up the back end at the sides. It was left open in the design originally so your elbows could rest there but for me the tray sits too low for that and I figured if I left the back open I would regret it because chips would constantly fall out into the chair.


----------



## KelleyCrafts

I built one of those as well and I left the arm rest pieces off and chips do in deed fall through there so I recommend closing those up.


----------



## Karda

no I meant how do you keep from droping the tray on the floor


----------



## Lazyman

I guess the curve of the tray is customized to the curve of the belly.


----------



## ToddJB

Here's something from the HotDeals Thread

I ordered a handful of things



> https://www.northwestpassagetools.com
> 
> 30% off Ukrainian made carving tools by Styrl.
> 
> This site is in Canadian dollars, so the actual price in US dollars is about 53% of the canadian dollar prices you see on the site. If you want to show support for Ukraine, this is a way. You have to use the code "ukraine".
> Ocelot thanks for the link. The website is quirky and you need to be careful which tool you select as the graphic icon does not always correspond to the current link. The best advice is to use the pull down list. I ordered a half dozen carving tools and felt great that, in some way, I am supporting the Ukrainian GDP which is down 53% due to the war.
> 
> I don t carve, but I do collect tools, so I ordered about 1 of each (except a few).
> 
> Their web site is a little bit odd. You have to select the tool form the drop-down list.
> 
> -Paul
> 
> - Ocelot


----------



## HokieKen

I left room for a few beers Nathan ;-)

I saw that Todd. Unfortunately I couldn't really find anything I needed that was in stock. I've read good things about those tools though.


----------



## DLK

> Here s something from the HotDeals Thread
> 
> I ordered a handful of things
> 
> I also order a few. I found the web-site very difficult to use.
> 
> https://www.northwestpassagetools.com
> 
> 30% off Ukrainian made carving tools by Styrl.
> 
> This site is in Canadian dollars, so the actual price in US dollars is about 53% of the canadian dollar prices you see on the site. If you want to show support for Ukraine, this is a way. You have to use the code "ukraine".
> Ocelot thanks for the link. The website is quirky and you need to be careful which tool you select as the graphic icon does not always correspond to the current link. The best advice is to use the pull down list. I ordered a half dozen carving tools and felt great that, in some way, I am supporting the Ukrainian GDP which is down 53% due to the war.
> 
> I don t carve, but I do collect tools, so I ordered about 1 of each (except a few).
> 
> Their web site is a little bit odd. You have to select the tool form the drop-down list.
> 
> -Paul
> 
> - Ocelot
> 
> - ToddJB


I also order a few. I found the web-site very difficult to use.


----------



## HokieKen

Lately I've been on the lookout for quick and easy projects to do from pieces I find outdoors to give the kids. I like spending time outside in the spring so this scratches that itch and lets me make something too 

Here's two I did yesterday while the rain kept me on the patio.


















My googling lead me yo Chris Lubkemann often. Chris advocates for nothing but a Swiss Army knife for whittling. With some modification to blade shape. Well that lead me down a rabbit hole on customizing Swiss Army knives. So I bought a few sacrificial lambs 









and ordered some 1095 steel plate. So I'll be dawdling around with making the "perfect" Swiss Army whittling knife in the near future


----------



## Karda

very nice, simple yet satisfying


----------



## DanKrager

I especially like the chicken, Ken.

DanK


----------



## Foghorn

Love it Ken!


----------



## rad457

All I got is my Bench Bird








Got a little carried away with this one, wife not happy, not happy with the eye's?


----------



## HokieKen

Sounds like you better get started on another one Andre ;-)

Thanks for the comments guys. My oldest grandson just turned 10. The past couple of trips we've been on that I took my carving kit, he was really interested and engaged with putting a blade to a stick and making something. So for his birthday last week, I got him this book:










And this knife:









He's only allowed to whittle (or be in possession of a knife at all) when supervised and I'm usually the only one who supervises him. So I went over last night and spent about an hour helping him find some sticks and prep them for making some knives in the book. It was good fun  And the book has some really interesting projects that I'd never seen or thought of too. I may end up getting an e-version of it for myself  His knife was a little small for my big mitts but it seemed to fit him well. Although, he's 10 so he thinks the 6" tanto he got in the bargain bin at Smoky Mountain Knife Works is more fun to use <rolling_eyes>.


----------



## Lazyman

> Although, he s 10 so he thinks the 6" tanto he got in the bargain bin at Smoky Mountain Knife Works is more fun to use .


The force is strong with this one.


----------



## MikeB_UK

That little swiss army job is my EDC knife.

Looks like the blade has been reground to a wharncliffe from the look on the cover of the book.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, that's the main modification that he suggests for whittling is to grind that blade down to have a flat edge, sharp tip and a convex bevel. I actually just did that to one of my parts knives yesterday:









The one on top is the original blade shape. The bottom is the one I modified. Haven't tried it out yet.


----------



## rad457

Yup, very enjoyable time spent with the Grangirls, even when they cut themselves Hey only one out three?
This is a little knife I made at inside Passage, used one of Krenov's as a model and to do some of the carving of the handle. Handle is Doussie, blade was a 6" fine file, annealed, shaped, tempered, heat treated then sharpened as one of our projects.


----------



## HokieKen

Carving is hard work but I muddle through ;-)


----------



## DanKrager

Like.
DanK


----------



## Brit

Keep on muddlin' Kenny.


----------



## HokieKen

Unfortunately my time at the lake house is over and I'm back to work truly muddlin' today Andy :-( I did make some good progress on the 3 Hares though. I finally got the background where I was mostly happy with it and figured I'd finish cleaning it up as I went with shaping the body. So I finally moved on to doing something different and pretty much completely new to me 









I'm more or less happy with how it's looking except that I'm having a hard time keeping all 3 the same. And when doing the hollow in one of the ears, I lost a big chunk which will require some considerable lowering to hide. But, this is a learning exercise and I'm most assuredly learning. My granddaughter took a good look at it last week and said she wanted it. I told her I would give it to her when I was done. She said "actually, you keep that one and make me one with 3 Unicorns." 

I did come to a couple of conclusions while working last week. First, I fully understand why Chris Pye advocates for a back bevel on gouges. When rounding edges, it's a lifesaver. So I'll be adding one to the few gouges I have that I didn't put one on already.

Second, I don't have enough tools! Surprise, surprise ;-) So I hopped back on Mountain Woodcarvers closeout pages and ordered a smaller skew and a couple of additional sizes of #3 gouges. I have 4 of these Sculpture House tools that I ordered last year and I've used them extensively on this carving and been very happy with them. The handles are kind of clunky and I'll probably either refine them or replace them at some point. But after commissioning the tools and putting them through their paces, I'm very happy with the quality of the steel and the forging. They take a good edge and hold it well with frequent stropping. I'd put them on par with the Pfeil tools I have.


----------



## Brit

She said "actually, you keep that one and make me one with 3 Unicorns." 

That's hilarious Kenny. That reminds me of when I used to do graphite drawings and my daughter was about eight years old. She showed interest in a drawing I did of a hedgehog but wanted one in blue to match the colour of her room.

[IMG alt="09. Hedgehog"]https://live.staticflickr.com/3371/5751907243_992c615f15_z.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Unfortunately my time at the lake house is over and I m back to work truly muddlin today Andy :-( I did make some good progress on the 3 Hares though. I finally got the background where I was mostly happy with it and figured I d finish cleaning it up as I went with shaping the body. So I finally moved on to doing something different and pretty much completely new to me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I m more or less happy with how it s looking except that I m having a hard time keeping all 3 the same. And when doing the hollow in one of the ears, I lost a big chunk which will require some considerable lowering to hide. But, this is a learning exercise and I m most assuredly learning. My granddaughter took a good look at it last week and said she wanted it. I told her I would give it to her when I was done. She said "actually, you keep that one and make me one with 3 Unicorns."
> 
> I did come to a couple of conclusions while working last week. First, I fully understand why Chris Pye advocates for a back bevel on gouges. When rounding edges, it s a lifesaver. So I ll be adding one to the few gouges I have that I didn t put one on already.
> 
> Second, I don t have enough tools! Surprise, surprise ;-) So I hopped back on Mountain Woodcarvers closeout pages and ordered a smaller skew and a couple of additional sizes of #3 gouges. I have 4 of these Sculpture House tools that I ordered last year and I ve used them extensively on this carving and been very happy with them. The handles are kind of clunky and I ll probably either refine them or replace them at some point. But after commissioning the tools and putting them through their paces, I m very happy with the quality of the steel and the forging. They take a good edge and hold it well with frequent stropping. I d put them on par with the Pfeil tools I have.
> 
> - HokieKen


That's coming along nicely!
That back bevel looks like a good idea. Not sure I'd do it to one of my Pfeil gouges on a first effort, though.


----------



## HokieKen

That drawing's great Andy. Your creative well runs deep! I'll take a pink hedgehog to match my room ;-)


----------



## Phil32

HokieKen - It sounds like you ran into one of the challenges of circular carvings: that the approach changes depending on grain direction. Those rabbit ears look the same, but their orientation to the grain changes significantly. We run into that a lot with chip carving plates:

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/398425

I also agree with your choice of #3 gouges. I use them almost exclusively for the projects I do now - especially fishtiails. My smallest is a 3mm; largest 16mm, favorite 6mm (Herring Bros).

Phil


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks Phil. You're absolutely right, I've learned more about grain direction on this carving than on all others I've done combined. I actually had arrows drawn on each section to remind me which way the grain was running.


----------



## Lazyman

Is it too late to add a unicorn horn to each rabbet, Kenny? Don't forget to dye it pink.


----------



## Brit

Yeah grain direction is challenging Kenny. Sometimes you can plan for it and sometimes it takes by surprise. When I did the Three Hares project I changed the eyes in a bid to make it my own. I neglected to think it through properly and order the work accordingly. I started by shaping the eyeball and eyelids to get a bit of shadow under each eye when viewed the way I was going to hang the carving (shown below), then I went on to punch the iris. This was a big mistake. I punched the iris on the bottom hare first where the grain runs horizontally through the eye and I got away with that one. Then I punched the iris of the hare on the left where the grain runs diagonally through the eye and the eye split into two pieces. Luckily, I was able to lift the split piece and stick it back down with superglue. Then I came to do the hare top right and I was crapping myself as to what would happen next.

Since I had kind of got away with the other two eyes and all of the hares had to look the same, I gritted my teeth and hit the punch. The whole of the eye popped out and disappeared into thousands of other tiny shavings on the floor. I tried to make another tiny eye (matching the grain direction) but the wood fibers were so short around the punched hole, it just kept disintegrating in my hand. I believe I tried three times. The first two failed, the third was turning out ok, but I cut myself and bled all over it and ended up chucking that one too. I finally managed to craft a new eye by having the grain of the eye running vertically. I stuck it in and no-one would ever have known if I hadn't fessed up here. LOL.

Of course if I had thought it through better, I would have drawn the eye on the wood and punched the iris before shaping the eye and eyelids. The surrounding grain would then have been supported. In a perverse way though, it is these little challenges that attract me to carving. You really do have to think each bit through carefully and try to think of any potential problems.

[IMG alt="Three Hares Relief Carvin....com/65535/49894557086_aa044189aa_z.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## Phil32

Hey Ken - Notice the leafy rosettes in the corners of Brit's "Three Hares." I hope you planning to use something like that on yours. Also, notice that they're used on the chip carved plate!

Phil


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## HokieKen

Yeah, I try to think those types of things through Andy. I still screw the pooch far more often than I'd like. But it's usually a lesson that sticks


----------



## HokieKen

> Hey Ken - Notice the leafy rosettes in the corners of Brit s "Three Hares." I hope you planning to use something like that on yours. Also, notice that they re used on the chip carved plate!
> 
> Phil
> 
> - Phil32


I definitely did notice those corner embellishments Phil. And I did my layout to allow for something similar. So whenever I finish the hares portion, my next lesson will be in corner flowers


----------



## HokieKen

I'm currently working on a design for carving tools. I've quickly outgrown the storage box I have now both in quantity of tools and in size of tools.

I have a design pretty much done that I think I'm going to go with. I've landed on drawers in a mobile box.









I sized the drawers to hold 20 full size carving tools each. The one place I'm kinda stuck is on how to organize/divided the tools in each drawer. I currently use Kaizan foam but it's not space-efficient and doesn't allow for replacing/relocating tools easily.

So if any of you have good solutions, I'd love to see some pics


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## Dark_Lightning

If you want to reconfigure the spacers, you could try what I've done with dowels, but drill a small hole for each dowel, then place a larger dowel with an end turned to the small diameter. I use a 5/16"- 3/8" strap to mount the dowels. The dowels should be just short of the top edge of the drawer so that they don't rub on the drawer bottom above. That way they won't pop out on transport. I don't swap tools around, I have them set up so that I know where they are. A bit of anal retentivity from when I was a piecework mechanic. Looking for tools is not a money-making past time.


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## Phil32

You might consider the design used by Pfeil in their Brienz Collection several years back - and no longer available. The beechwood box has two levels - one lift-out tray. The spaces are wide enough for any Pfeil gouge - No, it cannot accommodate 50 mm wide tools. The dividers have a "dip" where you would gasp the shank or handle. The spacing of dividers should allow for putting your fingers on both sides of the shank or handle. 
The tool box has a latch and a handle for carrying with one hand. It even came with a brass plate bearing the owner's name. The original had space for a mallet, sharpening stone and honing oil, but I converted that space to handle eight more narrow gouges.


----------



## HokieKen

Thanks guys!

Steven, I agree about a fixed spot being nice. Problem is, I'm building my tool collection a piece at a time as needs arise. So I don't know what I'll add in the future. And it's most convenient to me to have them organized by sweep and then by size within each sweep. So it's necessary to keep it more universal so I can shift things around when a new tool comes home to live. I like the idea of the center divider and having tools opposing each other on both sides. That's my intention. Just can't figure out the best way to keep them separated and easily accessible as well. The strip with dowels is certainly a good starting point though.

Phil, I like that basic idea with the universal dividers that separate both ends of the tools. I feel like it's a little inefficient though compared to alternating the direction of the tools. However that's the cleanest solution and I may just go that route until I have enough tools that I need to pack them in tighter. I've designed my drawers deep enough so that I can have tools facing one another and still have clear access on both sides of all the handles to grab them.


----------



## Karda

could you make a peg board with 1/8 dowels spaced every 1/2 inch


----------



## Lazyman

If the entire case is mobile, Kenny, don't forget handles. Also, you might consider drawers that themselves are sort of self constrained and portable - perhaps hinged so that it opens like a clamshell to display 2 racks of tools.


----------



## HokieKen

> could you make a peg board with 1/8 dowels spaced every 1/2 inch
> 
> - Karda


Something like that might work well.



> If the entire case is mobile, Kenny, don't forget handles. Also, you might consider drawers that themselves are sort of self constrained and portable - perhaps hinged so that it opens like a clamshell to display 2 racks of tools.
> 
> - Lazyman


There will be handles, I just haven't decided on what kind yet. And I did consider making a couple of separate clam-shell type cases with latches on the sides so I could fasten them together for travel and storage. But ultimately I decided on this one because it gives me easy access to all the tools in a smaller footprint on my workbench. Plus I can stack another box on top in the future if I needed too and still have the same footprint.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

I guess in the process of choosing the tools, one could use tool rolls until such time as a final set is procured. In my case, that would be a joke, give that there's never an end to the number tools. ¯\(ツ)/¯


----------



## Karda

tool rolls are a pain


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of tool rolls. I keep my whittling knives in one because it's convenient to carry in the saddlebags on my motorcycle. But in general, I'd rather lug a box around and re-organize it every couple years than use tool rolls.


----------



## Brit

I went through the same thought process recently Kenny thinking about the drawers I'm going to build in my workshop to house my carving tools. In the end, I've decided that I am going to put all the tools in the drawers with the business ends to the front of the drawers so I can easily identify sizes and sweeps and for my full size carving tools, I am just putting a thin mat underneath them without any separators, dowels or anything else. The mini carving tools are the exception though. For those I'm going to use this oak moulding to keep the tools separated.



















When I'm carving at my bench I have a couple of these silicone mats that I put my tools on. The pattern on these particular mats is great for preventing tools from bouncing on the bench and rolling around when using a mallet. They come in a packet of two and I bought 3 packets because I like them so much. One of them now resides in the gas bottle drawer of my outside kitchen to sit the gas bottle on, so I now have 5 in my shop. There's no reason why you couldn't put these in the bottom of a drawer though.










P.S. If you're building drawers to hold your carving tools and plan on buying some bigger Ashley Iles sculpture tools at some point, bear in mind they are longer in length (approx. 30cm)


----------



## rad457

Jus dig out the #45


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## Karda

thats a good answer


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## HokieKen

I would do something like that if this was just in the shop. But I take my carving tools on the road with me quite often so without some sort of dividers, they'll be in the back of my truck fouling one another's edges.


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## DanKrager

My carving tools reside in a drawer in two layers of divided trays. The dividers are loose and can be removed if a tool too large for the compartment is present. A matching spare tray is reserved for a collection of "project carvers" to protect them from abuse and disarray.

So I used some today. And a 45. A museum quality picture frame complete with $50 no glare glass for a picture that granddaughter drew when she was maybe 10 years old. Very "impressionistic" and quite well done, really. She's 23 now and it will be a surprise for her to see hanging on our wall when they visit soon. Not done yet, but picture of finished may appear here.

















DanK


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## Karda

post a picture of the picture


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## HokieKen

I'd definitely like to see the frame and picture when you're done Dan  I like the pea molding.


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## DanKrager

Here is the picture laid out in a dry fit. The "mat" is dark green velvet upon which her artwork rests, pressed between the glass and a 6mm plywood back. She painted all the way to the edge of the paper, so this is what works to preserve the picture. 
I've always intended to make a frame for it like the other grandkids better artwork, but the round tuit kept rolling away. I really didn't like it at first, but it has grown on me over the years and seeing her artistic ability bloom is gratifying. She published her first book by drawing animals and backgrounds ON HER PHONE! She favors the surrealistic style, so I will have the famous artist's first picture. So at this point it gets a museum quality frame.










Dearly wish there was a way to preserve the purple hues in this walnut because they complement so nicely. I think Deft lacquer is the best I can do, but it still tends to be more brown than "purple". 
Note the LED shop lights accidentally lined up perfectly along the left and right edges! LOL.

DanK


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## Karda

awesome I bet you are proud


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## PCDub

> - Dan Krager


Ten years old when she did this?? Incredible talent!


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## HokieKen

That picture is fantastic and the frame fits it beautifully Dan!

If you find the magic bullet for keeping the purple in Walnut, please share! I've tried several WB and OB finishes and even with lacquer or blonde shellac, it seems to change.


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## Brit

Very nice Dan. I want to try some carved mouldings at some point.

I was going to ask what those lines were. It never occurred to me that they were a reflection of your shop lights.


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## Phil32

You might also consider carving a frame as part of your reliefs. It gives you an opportunity to do repeating figures that can't be done on a machine.


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## HokieKen

Next week is vacation so it'll be time to get some carving in  Which means I've got some prep work to do on tools I've acquired over the past few months…


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## Lazyman

Interesting approach: coating them with blood *before *you use them.


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## HokieKen

Saves time Nathan.


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## rad457

> Interesting approach: coating them with blood *before *you use them.
> 
> - Lazyman


Believe it's called a " Blood Quench"


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## HokieKen

.


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## Phil32

Ken - Don't use the ball peen hammer to prepare your gouges for the vacation carving.


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## HokieKen

LOL. How else do you do it Phil ;-)

I got the two small #3s on the left and the skew ready to roll last night. I'll hold off on the big deep sweep Pfeils until I have more time to devote to them. I won't be needing them on this trip anyway.

I think my son and I decided last night that we're probably going to ride our motorcycles to the beach this year. Which means my wife will ride with the grandkids and their mom and everyone's luggage will have to go in their minivan. So if that's the case, I probably won't be taking relief carving anyway :-( My vise and tool box just take up too much room. So I'll probably have to settle for my knife roll and a few blanks. I was hoping to finish up the 3 Hares on this trip but I have a Bighorn Sheep pattern I've been wanting to get started on anyway. And it's worth it to have my bike for the week


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## HokieKen

Beer, peanuts and carving a spoon. Little bit of relaxing this week


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## Lazyman

I don' see any beer…unless the camera is attached to bottom of the glass.


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## Karda

you can't see the beer because he is drinking from it


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## Dark_Lightning

And the peanuts are all still in the shell! I call Hokie pic! 8^D


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## rad457

I think a lot more Beers need to be drunk to fill out the curvature of the Lap table


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## HokieKen

That better?


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## Dark_Lightning

Ha ha, yeah!


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## HokieKen

I bought this Flexcut knife on a bit of a whim last spring. But I'm finding it's darned handy for getting into awkward spots to take slicing cuts


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## RWE

I picked up this odd tool yesterday. When I first saw it, I said to myself that I had never seen anything like it. My first thought was that it might be good to clean fibers out of corners in dovetails. I am not sure if the angles of the sides are acute enough for that.

After i took pictures, I could see what looked like a fine file surface. There is a slight curve at the tip of the tool. The bottom is hollow ground a bit.









So my guess is it was a riffler that was converted to what you see. It has a 4 stamped in the shaft.

I will play with it and see if t has any usefulness. I don't think there is a carving tool like this out there. Anyone ever see a single sided riffler like this? If nothing else, I can commit a slow death by hari-kari with it.


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## HokieKen

That's a bearing scraper RWE. It's used for scraping Babbit bearings during fitment.


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## RWE

> That s a bearing scraper RWE. It s used for scraping Babbit bearings during fitment.
> 
> - HokieKen


Thanks Kenny.

Well I guess it was worth the small investment. I have never heard of a Babbit bearing before. I looked it up on Google and I can see what it is used for. What is curious is why would they have the fine file pattern on the shaft? I guess if you run into a stubborn bump on a babbit bearing you can hit a lick with the file and then go back to scraping.

I suppose the number indicated the curvature so that you can match that to the bearing that you are working on.

You learn something new everyday.

Sorry to all you carvers with this side trip.


----------



## donwilwol

> That s a bearing scraper RWE. It s used for scraping Babbit bearings during fitment.
> 
> - HokieKen
> 
> Thanks Kenny.
> 
> Well I guess it was worth the small investment. I have never heard of a Babbit bearing before. I looked it up on Google and I can see what it is used for. What is curious is why would they have the fine file pattern on the shaft? I guess if you run into a stubborn bump on a babbit bearing you can hit a lick with the file and then go back to scraping.
> 
> I suppose the number indicated the curvature so that you can match that to the bearing that you are working on.
> 
> You learn something new everyday.
> 
> Sorry to all you carvers with this side trip.
> 
> - RWE


That's a bearing scraper made from a file! That's why it has the file [pattern.


----------



## HokieKen

I agree with Don, it looks like someone made that one from an old file. Babbits were once very common on precision machines and there are still folks around that know how to pour and fit them for restoring and repairing older things. I don't know of any commercial uses though so scrapers aren't common. They're cool to have around though. They aren't generally hard enough to scrape hardened steel but you can use them on softer metals in place of a file when you want a better surface and have a smaller target.


----------



## RWE

> That s a bearing scraper made from a file! That s why it has the file [pattern.
> 
> - Don W


Well that puts me back to my modified riffler theory. I figure some mad machinist wearing a cape conjured up this scraper to bedevil me. I suppose you could have a file/riffler with a number stamped on the shaft to indicate the fineness or coarseness of the file.


----------



## Phil32

Both Model T and Model A Ford engines had babbit crankshaft bearings, but they were not fitted by hand. A reaming rod was mounted to the block to precisely align the bearings in one operation. Babbit crankshaft bearings were used in most cars until the mid-50s when insert bearings were developed.


----------



## Phil32

The tool discussed looks somewhat like a Pfeil "Abegglen" knife which has concave and convex edges converging to a point and a 4" shank and shortened octagonal handle. I use a chip carving knife with a blade like that.


----------



## HokieKen

Question time for anyone who uses knives a lot for carving.

I love my Mora 106 sloyd knife and for small details sometimes it's just the thing. I like to hold it like a pencil. But it's just too long to be really comfortable to use like that. However the long slim blade and tip shape is just what the doctor ordered. I have some other Flexcut detail blades but the tip shape just isn't as good and the handles and short blades make them unsuitable for a "pencil grip." I also have a Mora 120 which is a fantastic knife and is of a better size for a comfortable pencil grip but the tip geometry is far less suitable for tiny details.

So basically, something like a 106 that's the length of a 120 (or even a little shorter) is what I'd like. But I haven't really found anything available. I'm considering buying a 106 blade and grinding the business end down shorter and handling it myself to scratch this itch. But thought I'd see if anyone here has a better suggestion first that would be available to buy?


----------



## DavePolaschek

Have you looked at the 122, Ken? There's also the Classic 3 and 2000 blades that are my go-tos for reshaping to meet my needs.


----------



## HokieKen

I actually ordered a 122 the other day Dave. But it still doesn't have the acute point of the 106 so it's not a replacement for it.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Fair enough, Ken. I wasn't sure it it was acute enough, or could easily be made so…

They used to sell another one… don't remember the number, but it's one of the ones that got discontinued in 2018 or so. I'll check my stash of blades and see what I've got. If I've got any others, I'll let you know what I find. But I have something like 20 mora blades, about half of them no longer made, sitting in my stash of "future knives."

My favorite at the moment is a 2000, complete with plastic handle, that I shortened to a little over an inch long, with the point of it almost a right angle. Great for chopping across end-grain into a corner, and beefy enough that I can tap the back of it with a mallet if I've got really tough grain I'm fighting.


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## HokieKen

I've considered reprofiling something else Dave but then I figured that would be silly. The 106 geometry is perfect and they're readily available and inexpensive. I'd still buy something that didn't require grinding or handling if I found it but if I'm modifying it anyway, may as well start with the one that requires the least work.


----------



## DavePolaschek

Yeah. The 105 isn't the "short 106" you're looking for, I'm pretty sure. I thought it was something like the 126… I thought I bought a couple, handled them, and gave them away, but looking back through my projects, they were all either 120s or 106s, so I may not have anything else… but I do remember another blade of theirs that got discontinued after my first order from Sweden.

Edit to add: Just checked. I have 120s, 106s (both laminated and high carbon), Classic 1/0, and Classic 2/0 blades in stock. That's it for the Moras.


----------



## Phil32

Many woodcarvers and whittlers focus their attention on the tips of knife blades. This may be logical for details or incised lines, but there are some cuts that call for using the heels. This requires a tool with a step or corner at the handle end of the cutting edge. The cutting edge is sharpened from tip to heel. The cut is made with a pushing motion and the tip raised above the wood. This probably led to the Abegglen knife. The same cut can be made with a skew gouge.


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Many woodcarvers and whittlers focus their attention on the tips of knife blades. This may be logical for details or incised lines, but there are some cuts that call for using the heels. This requires a tool with a step or corner at the handle end of the cutting edge. The cutting edge is sharpened from tip to heel. The cut is made with a pushing motion and the tip raised above the wood. This probably led to the Abegglen knife. The same cut can be made with a skew gouge.
> 
> - Phil32


I've looked for skewed gouges, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I do have some skew chisels, and bought come fishtail gouges in an attempt to get (sort of) skewed gouges. If some manufacturers make them, I haven't found them.


----------



## HokieKen

Pfeil makes 2a l/r gouges which are shallow skewed gouges Steven. I ordered a l/r pair of 3mm ones in January of 2021. They're STILL on back order at Woodcraft :-(


----------



## HokieKen

Phil, you're right about the full blade geometry being important. However I have several knives already and at this point I'm just looking for something very specific for very specific uses. Namely something long and skinny I can hold like a pencil without accidentally slicing myself


----------



## HokieKen

> Yeah. The 105 isn't the "short 106" you're looking for, I'm pretty sure. I thought it was something like the 126… I thought I bought a couple, handled them, and gave them away, but looking back through my projects, they were all either 120s or 106s, so I may not have anything else… but I do remember another blade of theirs that got discontinued after my first order from Sweden.
> 
> Edit to add: Just checked. I have 120s, 106s (both laminated and high carbon), Classic 1/0, and Classic 2/0 blades in stock. That's it for the Moras.
> 
> - Dave Polaschek


If I don't find something in the next week or so, I'll order a 106 blade. If you want to unload one, I'll buy it from you. But they're readily available online so only if you just want to offload one ;-)


----------



## DavePolaschek

Go ahead and buy from wherever, Ken. If I send one your way, that's just one more I'll have to order from Sweden that much sooner (I generally buy direct, and buy in big enough batches to avoid much shipping penalty).

For skewed gouges, that small company you recommended a year or two ago had them, I think, Ken. I bought a bunch of their gouge blanks for future projects as part of my order. Pretty happy with the blanks. Wish I had more time to play with that sort of thing…


----------



## Dark_Lightning

> Pfeil makes 2a l/r gouges which are shallow skewed gouges Steven. I ordered a l/r pair of 3mm ones in January of 2021. They're STILL on back order at Woodcraft :-(
> 
> - HokieKen


Thanks for the info. I bought some O1 steel and was going to make some, but the heat treating process put me off. That is way back burner if I do end up making some. I'm currently building a gate, and wrenched my (arthritic) back. Everything is on hold, and I can't even get to my carving tools.


----------



## HokieKen

Yeah the clearance tools ai linked did have skewed gouges. I bought a couple and they're good steel but the handles suck and they took quite a bit of grinding to get in useable condition. So I hesitate to recommend those unless somebody is just looking for a rough starting blank.


----------



## Phil32

> I've looked for skewed gouges, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I do have some skew chisels, and bought come fishtail gouges in an attempt to get (sort of) skewed gouges. If some manufacturers make them, I haven t found them.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


Yes, I also use the #1 skews for the "push" cuts. On this relief the curvy lines were first incised with a knife, then the sides of each groove were cut with a #1S/8mm. This required changing the cut direction with each turn of the curve and each side of the groove.

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/393409


----------



## Dark_Lightning

Nice!


----------



## HokieKen

Speak of the devil, this showed up over the weekend:









It took 20 months and it's only one of the two that I ordered but at least the tip is broken…


----------



## Dark_Lightning

8^(

All that waiting for something broken. smh


----------



## HokieKen

I know. And the thing is, it was still in the factory sleeve and had a ton of bubble wrap around it. So it had to have left in that condition. I've waited this long for it though and it still shows "backordered" on Woodcraft's site so there's no chance I'm returning it. I figured I'd be regrinding the bevel anyway since they factory ones are almost always too steep to suit my grip. But it's a bit aggravating to have to grind away 1/8" of steel before it ever takes the first shaving.


----------



## Phil32

That really sucks, Ken. Those spoon bent profiles are especially hard to re-work.


----------



## Lazyman

Maybe you can convince them to send you another one and you can return it when it arrives…or at least get them to send you a new tip. ;-)


----------



## Phil32

Ken - Am I correct that the supplier of your Pfeil 2a/3r gouge has the exclusive dealership for Pfeil tools in the U.S.? As I think about your task of re-working a spoon bent skew gouge, it occurs to me that you may have an easier time if you made it into a *2a/3L* - Yes, switch it to a left skew - It would reduce the amount of metal to be removed.

And, it would almost certainly speed up the delivery of the other one you ordered.


----------



## HokieKen

The other one I ordered is a 2a/3L Phil. So making this one left hand would leave me with 2 left hands…. There are other dealers that sell Pfeil here but since I ordered these, I still haven't ever been able to find them available anywhere else either. Otherwise I woild have ordered them elsewhere and cancelled this order long ago. Unfortunately this is a case of just grinning and bearing it. My only option is to return it and wait goodness-knows-how-long for another one to ship.

Fortunately I do have a Tormek jig tonuse with my Worksharp that I bought specifically for skewed short bent tools and it will shape gouges as well as flats. So it won't be a hige undertaking. It's just disappointing to pay $40 for a tool, wait almost 2 years for it, and then have it arrive unuseable.


----------



## Karda

you should write the company and let them know of your displeasure


----------



## Phil32

Ken - I just thought it would be ironic if you made a left skew, and then got delivery of your order.

Just to keep your hopes up, here's a couple of photos:


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## HokieKen

What's going to be really ironic is when I grind this RH into a LH on accident then have to grind the LH to a RH whenever it does arrive ;-)


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## HokieKen

I mentioned the Sculpture House tools I bought from Mountain Woodcarvers last week. I bought a couple of these #3 short bent gouges from them and ground them to skews last year. If they had better handles and smaller sizes, I'd probably return this Pfeil and order more and just regrind them to skews. The reason for paying $80 for a pair of Pfeils is the higher level of finish and that they come sharp and ready to cut.


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## Lazyman

Except when they don't come sharp and ready to cut. I would send it back with a complaint about waiting 2 years only to receive a defective tool.

EDIT to add: personally I would rather spend the time making a better handle for a a cheap tool than to grind away valuable steel on an expensive one.


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## HokieKen

> you should write the company and let them know of your displeasure
> 
> - Karda


I would if there was anything I expected them to do. But there isn't. Stuff like this happens all the time. I just drew the short straw this go-round. All I can expect Woodcraft to do is offer to replace it when stock comes available or refund it and I have no doubt they would do so. I know I'm whining and griping about it but in truth, I'm not throwing off on Woodcraft or Pfeil. I've bought lots of stuff from WC and I have several Pfeil tools and this is the first issue I've had with either one. Fortunately I have the tools and experience to know how to fix it myself so that's what I'll do and let it slide. But if the left-handed one shows up a year from now in the same condition it'll be a different story ;-)


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## HokieKen

> Except when they don t come sharp and ready to cut. I send it back with a complaint about waiting 2 years only to receive a defective tool.
> 
> EDIT to add: personally I would rather spend the time making a better handle for a a cheap tool than to grind away valuable steel on an expensive one.
> 
> - Lazyman


Issue there is that the Sculpture House tools are little more than forged and hardened blanks. Some have come to me with nothing more than a hint of a bevel and nothing close to a cutting edge. So I can spend 20 minutes fixing this Pfeil or 2-3 hours bringing a Sculpture House to the same condition. And I think the Pfeil steel is superior. The sculpture house steel has been a great value but I don't think it's as good in terms of edge retention as Pfeil or Ashley Iles.


----------



## DavePolaschek

I haven't used my Sculpture House tools extensively enough to say for sure (my most-used from them is a straight 6mm gouge, which was actually in pretty good shape), but I wouldn't argue with Ken's assessment. They're great value, but maybe not the best steel. That said, I have ten blanks from them I'll be commissioning once I get my forge up and running later this year (part of the shop cleaning unburied the forge and refractory and such). I think I have one piece I need to heat treat for the HPOYD Secret Santa, so I either get the forge working or send it off to someone else for heat treat.


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## HokieKen

I can't remember where I read it Dave but I'm pretty sure I found that the Sculpture House tools are straight 1095 carbon steel. And Pfeil is "Swiss Alloy" which from what I can tell is a proprietary chrome vanadium mix. There's definitely something that makes the pfeils take a really sharp edge and retain it superbly with routine stropping. 1095 is basically the same as O1 which is economical and effective but just more of a general use tool steel compared to Pfeil's house blend that's tuned specifically to carving tools. If you were to whack both of them into Ironwood with a mallet a dozen or so times, I suspect the Sculpture House would fare better. But for whispy shavings with handheld pressure, Pfeil gets the edge IME. So there are legit reasons that Pfeil tools are more expensive. Are they worth 4-6X as much though? To me, for an everyday user tool, yes. For something like a shortbent skewed chisel that I use once in a blue moon? Not so much.

And to clarify, I only cite Pfeil vs Sculpture House as an example since they're relevant to the conversation at hand. I also have tools from Ashley Iles, Two Cherries, Flexcut and Schaaf. I would put Flexcut and Schaaf in the same bucket as Sculpture House as far as quality of steel (though the finish and handles on them is far superior to SH) and Ashley Iles in the same camp as Pfeil as far as better steel specific to carving (AI gets the best handle award out of all of them IMHO though).

So just to reiterate, I think the blowout prices at Mountain Woodcarvers on the Sculpture House tools represent a fantastic value as long as one is prepared to spend a good amount of time at the grinder or on stones to bring the tools to useable condition and possible to rehandle them. But if you're looking for a tool with nice fit and finish that you can open up and start making shavings with, I'd look elsewhere and open the wallet a bit wider.


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## DavePolaschek

Dammit, Kenny. You linked to them again, and I ended up "filling in" a bunch of gaps in my carving tools (mostly getting 6mm curves where I only have something bigger) and picking up a few spares for the sizes I use most often (5 and 7, 6 and 12mm).

The Sculpture House handles are… not great, but I find the price pretty good, and yeah, saying they're O-1 or 1095 makes sense. And the Pfeils and Iles tools I have are definitely superior steel, but I don't mind O-1 either. And if I have spares, I can always have a sharp one handy. And this time I paid to have them sharpen them the first time, so we'll see how that goes. I'll report back when they arrive.


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## Brit

That sucks Kenny. I think I would take pics of it with all the packing material and send them to the retailer. They should at the very least give you a big discount, if not refund your money entirely and let you keep the tool since it is no use to them. Worth a try.


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## Dark_Lightning

Bummer. I have about $15 worth of O1 that I bought to make carving tools from, but the prices on the Sculpture House tools is attractive, and I don't have to heat treat anything. I'm not set up for that in any way shape or form that would provide a reliable end product. I may end up buying some of the tools to modify a bit. The $4 sharpening charge makes me think that they'll come like the Schaaf fishtail set I bought did. Two required quite a bit of work. Didn't take that long, but if you sell a tool that is honed and ready to go, and the front edge is 10º off axis, I'd rather do it myself.


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## HokieKen

Steven, I can set you up with a guy that has a really nice heat treat oven for hardening and tempering. He'll do a handful of tools for a very reasonable price. Just shoot me a message if you're interested. Honestly though, the Sculpture House tools will probably still be cheaper overall if they have the sizes/styles you want.


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## Dark_Lightning

I'm honestly not seeing anything I don't have, with the exception of some fishtails and skews. So, if I bought some of their offerings, I'd still have to modify them. I did manage to find some bent skews from Ashley Isles. I may be over-thinking the tools. BUT, when I worked as a mechanic, I was deep into the Snap-On truck "crack" dealer, because not having a tool means making less of a living. I did piece-work for a long time, and time is money. I'll consider your offer, because I'd want the tools that I need to be palm tools. I have a lathe and can make the handles. The Sculpture House tools don't have that kind of a handle…but the prices are great. #conflicted


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## HokieKen

Well Andy appealed to my thrifty side 



> ...hey should at the very least give you a big discount, if not refund your money entirely and let you keep the tool …
> 
> - Brit


I shot off an e-mail to Woodcraft customer service this morning with photos. I anticipate a "return it for a refund or we'll replace it when inventory becomes available" response. But I did try to head that off by saying I would be very disappointed if my only options were doing without the tool I paid for a year and a half ago or waiting indefinitely for another one. So hopefully Andy's optimism will pan out and they'll say "we've refunded your credit card and you can dispose of the tool in whatever manner you see fit." But I ain't holding my breath ;-)

I would be happy too if they said "we have a few left in inventory and just haven't updated the site yet so we'll send out a replacement immediately" 

And if anyone happens to know where there is a 2a/3R available for sale, please let me know! And a 2a/3L too for that matter. I would return this one and cancel the other one in heartbeat if I could get them elsewhere…


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## HokieKen

> ...I did manage to find some bent skews from Ashley Isles….
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


If you're looking at the 22 and 23 sweeps, they are indeed skews but they are not gouges, just flat skew chisels. The 2a sweeps that Pfeil makes are actually shortbent skewed gouges with a #3 sweep. And I was unable to find anyone else that made such an animal when I was shopping. In hindsight, I probably should have just ordered shortbent gouges from AI instead and ground in the skews myself. Which is what I did for a larger (8mm I think) size with Sculpture House tools. I ordered the shortbent #3 gouges and ground them to a skew myself. It was rather difficult until I figured out how to jig them though and I'm not positive my eyes can see good enough to do the same with a 3mm tool…


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## HokieKen

Well Woodcraft is certainly responsive and quick! Initial e-mail was as expected, they would refund my money if I returned the tool but they don't have inventory to replace it. So I sent a response that I needed the tool and asking for a partial refund to assist with the cost to repair the damage. They said they couldn't do that but would send a $25 Woodcraft gift card if I would like. Of course I would like 

*Edit to add:* And I just got a phone call from the CS rep apologizing for the inconvenience. Definitely a big kudos to WC CS.


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## Phil32

> The 2a sweeps that Pfeil makes are actually shortbent skewed gouges with a #3 sweep.
> 
> - HokieKen


Pfeil uses the Swiss numbering system in which a #2 has a shallow curve. It is the London Pattern Book that uses #2 for skews. So the Pfeil Spoon Bent Skew Gouges have a #2 sweep. The left or right skew is designated by the L or R after the second (width) number, as 3R or 3L. According to my old Pfeil catalog, the skew gouges come in nine widths for both left and right, from 1 to 25mm, but only #2 sweep.

For straight edge tools (#1) the Swiss system uses an "S" after the first number to designate skews, but violates the rule for these skew gouges. The lower case "a" after the 2 designates the spoon bent shape.

I have come to the conclusion that main use for these would be for flattening deep relief backgrounds. The fishtails have been adequate for all the reliefs I do. Imagine a shallow curve bent skew gouge in your hands - 25mm wide!


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## Phil32

Here are the tables from the Pfeil catalog that I picked up at Hugglers shop in Brienz, Switzerland in 2001. The color highlights are tools I have. These two skew gouges were purchased online in 2013. My memory is that I intended to buy left & right skews in the same width, but they were not available even then. They were more than $10 cheaper as well. Note the left or right skew designation was shown with lower case letters.


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## Phil32

The Pfeil catalog (of that time) went on to show the 3a to 9a tables - all spoon bent gouges, but none skewed. 
Note: This catalog was published before Pfeil offered any #4 or #6 gouges!


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## Dark_Lightning

> ...I did manage to find some bent skews from Ashley Isles….
> 
> - Dark_Lightning
> 
> If you re looking at the 22 and 23 sweeps, they are indeed skews but they are not gouges, just flat skew chisels. The 2a sweeps that Pfeil makes are actually shortbent skewed gouges with a #3 sweep. And I was unable to find anyone else that made such an animal when I was shopping. In hindsight, I probably should have just ordered shortbent gouges from AI instead and ground in the skews myself. Which is what I did for a larger (8mm I think) size with Sculpture House tools. I ordered the shortbent #3 gouges and ground them to a skew myself. It was rather difficult until I figured out how to jig them though and I m not positive my eyes can see good enough to do the same with a 3mm tool…
> 
> - HokieKen


Mine are IL-BC12X2A and IL-BC12X2B, 3/16 width. Short bent skews.


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## Brit

> And if anyone happens to know where there is a 2a/3R available for sale, please let me know! And a 2a/3L too for that matter. I would return this one and cancel the other one in heartbeat if I could get them elsewhere…
> 
> - HokieKen


I had a really good look around Kenny and I found one place in Europe that both of them at 3mm width and one place that just had the 2a/3R. I was going to buy them and send them on to you because I know what a PITA it is to wait so long for a certain profile to be available, but they didn't even ship to England.


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## HokieKen

I appreciate the effort Andy  But I have the R now and it won't take too much to get it commissioned. Fortunately I have a good jig for skews that also allows for rolling so I should be able to grind this one into shape in short order. And I imagine I can get by with just the right-handed version as long as necessary so I'm not sweating its mate too much. I hope that the fact that I got this one but WC didn't get any other inventory of it means Pfeil is working on filling back orders now and that the other one will follow this one shortly. I don't think I've touched the 3 Hares since May anyway so it's not like lacking these tools is holding up any progress…

I had a look yesterday and Woodcraft has the 2a/2l in stock and I considered ordering it to pair with this one. But I just feel like 2mm is too small. And I have a pair of 8mm shortbent gouges I ground to skews so going larger doesn't make sense. So I'll just hold out for the 3mm.


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## Phil32

The lack of a particular carving tool has never been the reason for not moving forward on a project. It's always something else. It's called *ennui.*


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## HokieKen

Got another carving related package this week. This one's really exciting









A new hook knife from Deepwoods Ventures.


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## KelleyCrafts

I hope you enjoy that hook knife Kenny. I like mine other than the handle is long but I just haven't fixed that yet.

I think Kenny mentioned heat treating earlier. I think I'm the guy he was referring to. I'll do it for free if you don't abuse the privilege. You do need to pay shipping both ways but I don't mind. I have a decent sized oven so I can do many in a single shot.


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## HokieKen

Yep, it was you of whom I spoke Dave  A very generous offer. Far more generous than I would have volunteered on your behalf ;-)


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## Dark_Lightning

Well, now, that's a very generous offer, indeed! Though I don't expect free. Now, you've called my bluff, and I'll have to go shape some iron, lol. I'll get back to this, at some point. I have a lot of other "irons in the fire", like getting some stuff sold so that I can get my new table saw into position and the wiring run. Finally sold my SawStop JSS, but the old Incra router table and fence are still occupying needed space…and there is a partially assembled iron and wood gate in the way, to boot. When I retired, I didn't think that I'd still be this busy. <puts>


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## KelleyCrafts

No hurry Steven, I'm not going anywhere for a long while, the oven too.


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## Dark_Lightning

> No hurry Steven, I'm not going anywhere for a long while, the oven too.
> 
> - KelleyCrafts


Thanks!


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## HokieKen

Any of you carvers do wood burning? I've had this knife that Mike Pounders detailed the handle on

in my favorites and have been looking for the right opportunity to give something similar a go. I have a hook knife and a sloyd that both need handles so now's a good time.

However, I have ZERO woodburning experience. So I figured maybe I'd go ahead and get a burner and start practicing and leave the handles unfinished until I feel confident in having a go at it. Mine will be MUCH simpler than Mike's but I think a burner would be a good thing to have around for adding detail to carvings too.

So I don't need a high-end setup but I also don't want a POS that will just frustrate me. Anybody got a recommendation? I'll ask the site at large later but thought this might be the group to ask first


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## Phil32

Pyrography (woodburning) has some of the same challenges as carving - choosing the right tip for what you plan to do, learning the right heat settings, wood response. Expect a "learning curve." 
I have come to prefer incising the design on the wood, then sealing it and wiping gel stain into the incised lines.


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## HokieKen

I have dabbled with kolrosing Phil but burning would let me keep a smooth surface on the knife handle. And it has the added benefit of being able to produce shading rather than just hard lines.


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## Brit

I tried it once Kenny, but the burning smell put me off. I suppose it would be alright if you did it outside or in a large space, but it was a bit overpowering in my little workshop.


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## HokieKen

You've obviously never smelled my workshop Andy.


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## Phil32

Some of the most successful woodburning I seen in recent years has been *gourds*. I think both of these were offered for sale by street vendors in South America:


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## Karda

well it official, I started carving, again. I am doing a Celtic knot triangle but I think I bit off more than I can carve. Here it is at this point.


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## HokieKen

Best way to learn is to just go at it Karda and don't stop until you're done or it's ruined ;-) I just assume my carvings will end up in the burn pile. Then if it does, I'm not disappointed and if it turns out decent I'm pleasantly surprised. For me it's much more the act of carving that I find fulfilling rather than the finished piece.


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## Dark_Lightning

I've done worse, Karda. Just keep what you want it to look like in your mind's eye…and like Ken says, you can always toss it in the fire. Though I get more satisfaction tossing it in the yard waste recycle barrel where it can at least be turned into mulch by the shredder. Circle of life, and all that, eh? 8^D


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## Karda

ok thanks, I don't have a wood stove any more so it won't go in the fire, guess I have to finish it


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## Phil32

Tell us more about the project, Karda. What is the wood? What are the dimensions, including thickness? It looks like you are using hand tools - gouges. Did you begin with stop cuts? What was the "bite" that was more than you could chew? It appears that your pattern runs off the edge of the wood.


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## Karda

the wood is walnut about 4" x 4" X 1" yes I am using carving tools. Th pattern doesn't quite run off the wood but close, I should have used a larger piece. I outlined with a V tool


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## Phil32

I suggest that you try using a gouge matching the curve of your pattern for deepening the stop cuts. If you have a straight shank, full-size gouge, hold it vertically on the pattern line. Tap with a mallet (or suitable substitute). Go down 1/8 or 1/4" and make angled gouge cuts in the waste wood to the stop cuts. Do not start flattening the background until you reach the maximum depth with your stop cuts. The maximum depth can be at least half the wood thickness. Then begin to work on the slopes where the knot strands go under or over each other. As you begin to round the strands, be sure to undercut them at the bottom. Flattening the background will be the final step.

This example is only 1-1/2" wide:


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## Karda

thanks for the suggestions, I just got a #3 that I can use to out line. I may quit this project, I have made so many mistake I don't know if I can recover


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## Karda

Hi, I just ordered some unhandled tools from mountain wood carvers. I like octagonal handles but I have know idea how to make them. Does anybody know how I could make these on a table saw or band saw thanks


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## Dark_Lightning

Depending on your cash flow situation, maybe just buy octagonal handles. https://www.woodcraft.com/products/pfeil-swiss-made-a-5-8-b-7-8-replacement-handle

You could make a jig that would hold the stock and turn it as each cut is made on the table saw, but that will only get you "straight" octagons. I don't have enough practice on the bandsaw making cuts that would be even with an octagonal handle.

Maybe someone else has a solution.

BTW, I have some gouge shapes that I'm considering making. I happen to like palm tools, so I can make them on a lathe with an offset blank. Of course, that's not what you asked about, so I put this in last.


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## Dark_Lightning

> the wood is walnut about 4" x 4" X 1" yes I am using carving tools. Th pattern doesn t quite run off the wood but close, I should have used a larger piece. I outlined with a V tool
> 
> - Karda


I had another thought about this project. Is it necessary that it be 1" thick? Maybe take the belt sander to it and reduce the thickness? I've made Celtic stuff, but not over about 5/16" or so.


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## Phil32

The commercially available handles have centering marks indicating they are made on a lathe with an indexing head & a jointer-like cutter to cut the eight curved faces. It's probably a fully automated machine in a factory like Pfeil.


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## Karda

I have a lathe the wood and I like to make my own tools. If I can't make an octagon I'll do a plain handle


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## Dark_Lightning

The octagon would only be a feature if you didn't want the tool to roll around on the bench, like the flat spot on palm tool handles does. Make 'em round and have fun carving!


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## Lazyman

I made a couple of hexagonal handles by taking a rounded handle (basically a dowel) and simply using a stationary belt sander to flatten the sides. You can even get a taper by putting a little more pressure on one or both ends, but do the taper after you have all 6 sides flat.

If you want them fairly precise and you have a tilting tool rest on your sander, you can tilt the rest down 30 degrees from 90 to get a nearly perfect angles. The width of each side should be the same as the radius of the dowel to get a nearly perfect hexagon. You can do the rough shaping with the dowel sideways on the tool rest (dropped 30°) sanding cross grain but finish with it lengthwise (sand with the grain) to get a smoother finish and add the tapers if you want them.


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## Karda

ok thanks


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## MikeB_UK

Hi Karda

I just freehanded mine with a plane

Pask made a good jig that looks like it'd be good for a bandsaw


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## DanKrager

Karda, for myself I make octagonal blanks that I turn the ends to make London pattern handles using a copier on the lathe. I have dozens of matching handles now. 









I know the desire to make your own stuff, so you can ignore this offer. I will make as many octagonal London pattern handles as you could reasonably want, say up to 24?. I also have the means to duplicate Pfiel handles in different sizes. Cover the shipping and I will use up some of my thick oak.

If you want weird, I can do any number of sides, like 7 or 9 etc.

Will need data about sockets or tangs. 
DanK


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## Karda

I have seen the Pask video, I was wondering if there was another way. I watched the video with the table saw, can this method be used on small pieces about 1" x 6" or so. Thanks Dan for the offer, I will keep it in mind


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## Ocelot

I'm just reading here and I see that you all are a generous bunch of guys. Makes me smile.

... also makes me want to get in on some of that somehow, but that's just wrong of me. 

I've been buying some Ukrainian-made carving tools in prep for starting to try my hand at it. The Stryi tools I received from Canada seem nice to me, but the sweeps are confusing. I ordered several more tools from a guy on eBay selling under the name "Simon" tools, but shipping (from a country at war) seems to be questionable at best. I've now lowered my estimated probability of ever getting them to 50%.

Since I didn't understand sweep, I took my Stryi tools and a set of metric radius gauges and measured the radii of the cutting edges of all of them. There didn't seem to be a consistent system.

I'll try to post from home those numbers.

I"m very tempted by the unhandled Sculpture house ones. And the 20-pc set could be sharpened for an additional $80, which is pretty much for sure worth it - if they can sharpen unhandled tools.

-Paul


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## Karda

I got a gouge from mountaincarvers, works good, its a Master carver brand. They seem to be a good beginer tool and the price is right. When I got it it was sharp all I had to do was sharpen on my 2000 grit diamond stone then strop I also ordered some sculpture house tools


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## DavePolaschek

I finally got around to opening and using the Sculpture House tools I ordered about a month back. Paid the $4 each to have them sharpen them, and they did a pretty good job. I figure it was worth it to be able to get started without having to commission the eight tools I bought.

There's one curved skew that doesn't seem quite right, but I've never used a curved skew before, so it's possible it's operator error, too…


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## HokieKen

Good on ya Dan, a very generous offer!


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## HokieKen

Paul, sweeps don't have an easily discernable pattern. Some time back in this thread (a year or better) there was discussion and I did an analysis to try to identify relationships. If you can find those posts, they may clarify some things for you. Or they may confuse you further.


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## Ocelot

Ok, for the Stryi tools…

Straight
5/15 r=27mm
7/15 r=17.5mm
7/10 r=6mm
7/5 r=6mm
8/10 r=5.5mm
___
Curved
5/10 r=12.5mn
8/20 r=11.5mm
9/10 r=5mm
9/5 r=2.5mm
9/20 r=9.5mm

R is radius measured on the inside at the cutting edge.
So it seems that #9 gouges are predictable with radius half of the width, but the others… ?


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## Ocelot

I was surprised that for the#7 gouges, the5mm and 10mm have the same radius while the 20mm has a much larger radius.


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## DanKrager

Karda, as with any profile work longer sticks work better on saws and shapers. But on a table saw, yes, those lengths are doable with appropriate safety precautions.

Before I had other means, I made a table saw jig that held any blank up to 30" x 3" on center points (like a lathe). One end had dog points that were on an indexed shaft so I could cut any polygon cross section on a stick, including tapers. I even did it with firewood pieces that had no starting "edge". Something like this would make cutting your "shorts" safe and accurate.










DanK


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## HokieKen

> I was surprised that for the#7 gouges, the5mm and 10mm have the same radius while the 20mm has a much larger radius.
> 
> - Ocelot


Look back in this thread starting at post #985 Paul. There was some discussion on relations between sweeps and it turns out the height/cord ratios can be used to define them. Except for #9. Or #8. Depending on whether you work up or down


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## Ocelot

Nice jig, Dan.

I was thinking of something for the bandsaw that would make radiused "flats". That indexing thingy you have there would help a lot.


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## Karda

ok thanks


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## Phil32

I have found the profiles of Swiss-Made gouges are defined as arc segments of a circle. The #9s are half, #8s are thirds, #7s are fourths, etc. (In the original patterns there were no #6s or #4s.) The #5s are a sixth, #3s are a tenth.
If this pattern is consistent, the #6s are a fifth, and the #4s are an eighth. To find the degrees of arc, divide 360 by the segment number, i.e. for #6: 360 divided by 5 = 72 degrees of arc. Thus, a #7 profile covers 90 degrees of arc for each gouge width.


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## Ocelot

Thanks Phil. That sounds very rational. ( No pun intended)


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## MikeB_UK

This may, or may not, help - not sure if the swiss use different system


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## Phil32

One of the main differences of Pfeil vs. LPB is the #2 tools. In Pfeil they are a gentle curve between straight and #3, but they also make a skewed #2 in a spoon bent form. The left or right skews are marked with a *lower case* "L" or "R" after the width number. Straight Skews are designated #1S (double bevel) or #1Se (single bevel).

*Correction* - The left or right marking for #2 skew gouges is a capital L or R after the width number. Their catalog was incorrect. The tool I have is 2a/8L

In London Pattern Book all the skews are straight edged #2.


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## HokieKen

IIRC, the 3-9 sweeps are the same in both systems. Is that right Phil?


----------



## Phil32

I think you are correct, Ken, but we have to consider the variations possible in manufacturing, The curve is probably established by a forging press, then expert individuals take it through bevel grinding, overall polishing, and honing processes. Does Quality Assurance check the curvature against a chart? Probably not.

It is interesting to think about when the handle is applied because it is the only place where the profile number appears. Wouldn't the expert bevel grinder need to know if he's working on a #7? Wouldn't he (or she) want a handle to hold on to when it gets hot?

I have another *Correction* to my recent post: The other skewed #2 spoon bent gouge I have is marked *2a/12r* - Yes, it's a lower case "r" (and inconsistent with the marking on the left one.)


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## HokieKen

Agreed Phil. There will always be variation between makers and even between tools from the same maker when tools are forged.


----------



## HokieKen

A while back I was complaining that I really like my Mora 106 for detail work and like holding it like a pencil. But that it's too big and awkward. So I ordered a 106 bare blade and took matters into my own hands 

I really like the tip geometry and the cutting edge so I left those parts untouched. I reshaped the rest to suit me. The pencil line is where I traces the original shape before I started.









Then I thinned it up a bit. Again though, didn't grind near the tip or cutting edge.


















Now to figure out a handle shape and size that will suit my meat hooks!


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## DavePolaschek

Looks like a good alteration, Kenny!


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## HokieKen

Mora's version on bottom and my modified one on top.









I think it's gonna scratch my itch


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## Brit

Nice work Ken. You got skills!


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## HokieKen

Thanks Andy!

Here's my new Deepwoods Ventures hook knife I just finished handling too


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## rad457

My Carving project today, found a nice straight grain Ash board. Love that little spoke shave from Lee Valley, has a 
PMV-11 blade that never seems to dull.


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## HokieKen

That looks great Andre! Is that a Kunz spokeshave with a PM-V11 blade you added?


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## rad457

- Lee Valley Tools







www.leevalley.com




Kinda hidden, the little silver one is from Lee Valley. The Kunz has a decent blade, but it's not PMV-11


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