# Grumbles from the shop



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Shaking my head...we'll never learn*

I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".

My sister bought a 12 year old one down in Nevada. In 12 years the outside trim was falling off. All the windows failed. The roof leaked and needed replaced. The dry wall was cracking. This was all just normal wear and tear. I've done a bit of work in them before and am shocked at how cheap these things are. I'm really shocked that people keep buying them. They are not that inexpensive.

In my part of the country it is illegal to build on many pieces of property, but you can put up one of these fancy trailer homes. Sometimes I think the government is really out to screw us. They sure want to control every little detail.

I put a spiritual value on the craftsmanship of my work. When I build something. I'm building for families and generations. Today I saw my work go to help tear down America. We buy crap and the worst the economy gets the more crappy crap we buy. It's not because it is cheaper. My cabinet bid was cheaper that the guy who was getting his cheap prefabs from HomeDespot. We have quit buying from small family size companies. That is what has driven them out of business. Not that Walmart is cheaper. We swallowed the lies.

The average American would never consider buying from a local furniture builder. That means that the local furniture builder has stopped trying to build affordable furniture. I see stuff imported from Asia, built by guys making $2.50 a day, selling for more than i would charge. I've seen the look of contempt from folks who could not believe that it would take me 4 weeks to build a piece of furniture.

I might just sound like a bitter old man. Would you believe I'm a very lucky guy. I'm one of the few that get to live the real American dream. Not the Donald Trump I'll f the next guy till I'm filth rich dream. When did ethics quit being part of business? No I'm talking about working to live, not living to work. We idolize the entrepreneurial spirit, but crush the reality of it. Maybe this has turned into a political rant, so I'll shut up and go dream some new furniture designs that will never get sold.


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## mrsawdust (Aug 19, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


please don't shut up. you do not want to be part of the silent majority, do you? they, along with political correctness are a big part of the ruination of this great country!
mike


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## Larry (Nov 14, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Dennis (Grumpy) - you have visiting too many stores in our area - come to think of it - I am not sure we even have a real furniture store here. Its too bad your not closer to Sun Valley and Jackson Hole - although I am sure you have sold some of your projects in those areas. The type of furniture you build has a real attribute for those areas. Its just too bad we have become a throw away society.


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## scribe (Feb 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I agree with the last comment. How what we hold sacred has degenerated in standards, honesty, quality. Nobody seems to care about their appearance or their work ethic. Scribe


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


"Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. ".....You always crack me up , Buddy ! Glad to see that your sense of humor hasn't gone down the drain : ) I lost my job 3 months ago in a small custom cabinet and millwork shop due to the economy.Still looking for another one : ( Chin up , my friend , and keep smiling through the pain : )


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I coudn't agree more. furniture and homes have both degraded in quality to the disposable level.
the only thing i can think to do about it is educate everyone who will listen of it's downfalls. and educate ourselves about how to do it properly. one day people will want quality again.
we just have to show them the option.
so keep ranting.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Preach it, Brother!


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## Huckleberry (Nov 7, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


About a year ago I was looking at new houses, or should I say my wife was and I was drug around through it all. Any how we were in this one house and the agent tells us that all of the bathroom and kitchen cabinets are from Ikea. This stuff was hideous and the builder was actually proud of what he did. My question for the builder was about warranties on the cabinets and such his reply was none at all. So had I not know the difference and bit at this I would be doing a whole renovation on a house that I bought new within 3 to 5 years. I should have taken pictures of that stuff it was awful stuff. But I guess that is what most people are into the good ole throw away stuff.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


education, education, education.
People just don't know - as you say "we believe the lies". We don't know what a "real" piece of furniture costs to be made. 
I'm hoping that the one silver lining of our economic crisis is that we move away from the disposable mentality and start purchasing "for keeps". When we get back to that philosophy then we will want to invest in quality rather than something to look good until our taste changes.


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## scarpenter002 (Sep 16, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Amen.


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## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


wow, what stirred you and I up. Did you see my blog from yesterday?

In our area it is just the opposite, you can't put a trailer house on a property. One stubborn guy about 6 miles west of me put his trailer house down and refused to remove it. So, finally submitting to the law, he put a huge barn around it. Gotta love the rebels among us.

Hang in there Dennis, if we all make it through this chapter in America, there might be some changes, until our Grandkids do just what we did, and it will all start over again.

M


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I have said it before and now you hear people like glee beck saying it. Revolution could happen again (but we keep acting like sheep), we need to stand up and be heard. Tell people to stop believing the lies, don't be quite, the other team sure is not quite about their beliefs. You need to stand up and be counted, vote with your dollars and get other to do the same. STOP voting the same crooks into office.. I could go on for a few pages but I'll stop there.


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## ShawnAllen (Dec 11, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Well, I almost bought into the BB stuff but on my bathroom reno the work we're doing is intended to last and look good too (1/2 bath to full bath/laundry). We had a local cabinet maker build a couple hatch doors, upper cabinet and lower countertop and bins for ~1150.00. Seemed kinda steep, but installed there is no way anyone will ever mistake these for anything but the custom work they are. And so of course had to go back to the same shop for a matching vanity, and got a deal on that b/c I had to wait for ~8 months on it.

The previous owner couldn't believe we'd do "all that work just for the two of you" - hrmmph! I actually NEED that 2nd bath 

There are a few of us around who prefer to NOT go the mass route.


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I feel your pain Dennis. I notice a lot of places around here selling furniture (not just Ikea) that is cheaper than I can buy the materials to make the same thing for someone. If it was simply a matter of the labor costs being different I could accept that. But when the total product costs less than my materials, it explains why no one is buying from local furniture makers. Of course the items will probably not last as long, but they are cheaper.

Hang in there Dennis. One day people may come around and begin paying for quality and not just price.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


seems the "all about money" crowd are presently watching their millions and billions of net worth turn into the chump change they call "my paycheque".

Even some of the "wealthy" put in the cheapest crap referred to as "high end cabinetry" which is nothing more then future landfill ….fill. Doors are stapled together, finished with auto NGR, the 100 grit sanding marks make the colours allover the map. Cheap 3/8" melamine gables dadoed into solid edges held with hotmelt and staples…....................it astounds me how even the brightest minds fall for the lure of "junk"...............and whats worse, they expect that the junk should be equall in quality to that made by a talented craftsmen so the parts are sent back to the manufacturer which in turn makes even those companies "squeel" like a stuck cat.

Going into furntiure big box stores and asking the salesperson if the product is "solid wood", then listening to the "speach" about the care and quality, select grains etc and knowing the whole while that the piece of furniture comes from a plastic injection mold and also knowing that the salesman really does think he/she is telling the truth.

I sometimes think that if you want to make a living at this trade you must always keep in mind…........"Its a paycheque" and do what you must to feed your family….......sad indeed but reality all the same


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Dennis,
I am surprised to hear this. I thought one of the selling points of these things is that my manufacturing in a factory, quality control could be much higher and there could be tighter tolerances. Also, they claimed that they could have people that really knew what they were doing because they focused on a specific aspect of construction. I wonder if I'm misunderstanding, if there are variances in quality among different builders, or it I just bought into the marketing.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I liken it to "people" some look awesome until you remove the make-up


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Some anecdotes …
People ask me if I do cabinets in new construction or mostly remodels. I tell them most of the cabinets I do are in houses 3-5 years old when the original junk cabinets start to fail.

I can't tell you how many times I bid cabinets in new construction only to have the homeowner or GC say, "I can get them cheaper at Home Depot." And I always say, "If you are happy with the style and quality that you can get from stock cabinets, then I think you should go that route."

In order to save a buck, our society has accepted that we will have to replace things every 3-5 years. I have done bids to replace failed furniture, only to have the person say, "but that's four times what I paid for this one." And I say, "yes, but if keep buying it at that price, you'll have to buy another one every 5 or 6 years. If you buy from me, you'll give it to your grandkids."

I could go on and on …

But I also have clients who say, "Wow, that's more than I expected … but I recognize quality when I see it … where do I sign?" There are still some out there, and I guess all we can do is try to educate the rest.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


HokieMojo, The walls in the home I installed cabinets in were 3/8 of an inch out in 24 inches. the curtain rods where plastic. Yes their selling point is "quality". I was in Lowes the other day and over heard the cabinet saleslady talk about the Conversion Varnish finish and how the local shops could not use it. She really believed it. It is a great industrial finish…that is why I use it. 
Here is a big difference. A guy in a factory cuts twenty boards at once. I take one board select the side I want and cut out the defects. That is REAL quality control. We have become OK with salespeople being unethical. That is what has caused this economic break down.


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


buyer beware i suppose. Thanks for the response. I never would have guessed.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Hear, hear.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Dennis: I'm glad that I'm retired and don't have to worry about trying to keep or find a job. I just ahve to worry about living on a fixed income, that I don't have any control over.

Good luck to you buddy. Keep making the crap if that's what they want, and thats all they want to pay for. At least it will put soup and bread on the table, until things get better.


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## cpollock (Jan 19, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Hi Dennis, 
Great observation. I just finished making cabinets for my kitchen… took 3 years, thought it would never get done! Many times I wondered if I was nuts, and should just buy the ready-made stuff. But everytime I looked at the usual fare at HD or Lowes, I just couldn't ever see installing that low quality stuff. The contrast between what a craftsman builds (even a bad one like me) versus the mass-produced commercial product is like night and day. But it takes time, and that's often the driving issue in a project.
Clif


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


That is one of the real sad things about these trailers. People buying them because they don't want to wait 2 months for a real builder. A $100,000.00+ investment and they can't wait 2 months for a real house. How can we be so stupid.
Hay Karson my cabinets are not crap but they are affordable. 5/8 Melamine box construction, solid wood doors, drawers, and face frames. Professional finish. I use domestic sheet goods. No hot melt. I'd put them up against just about any factory cabinet for durability. I sleep well at night.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Hi Dennis;

Tell us how you really feel. LOL I, along with many others here face the same look you described when giving a client a price for something.

I often hesitate in quoting some projects, due to the numbers. And often, someone is more than willing to build some junk for half the price, and the client thinks I must be a thief. They often don't see, or I should say don't want to see a difference. The part that really gets me though, is when they ask if I want to match the price.

I would rather burn my bra! (if I had one). I don't know where that came from, but I'll leave it in to see if anyone catches it.

This has been an ongoing struggle to woodworkers for many years now. Kresnov, was very disturbed about this very topic in one of his books, and in fact was the reason he wrote that book. His decision, as to what to do about it, was to continue building quality pieces, in hopes that sooner or later, people will wake up.

One more thing, after carrying Melamine around, of course you sleep well.

Lee


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Dennis we all have seen your work and know you don't build crap, long way from it. your stuff is beautiful, most of it belongs in a gallery. We just live in a throw away society, and the kids going on to college now days expect to get a 6 figure job as soon as they get out of school.


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Hi Lee , Deferring to Sienfeld , I believe you would be burning you BRO or Manssiere , depending on whose side you were on . LOL Thanks for the humor !


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Yes Lee now if some very bright guy could come up with someway to help that out…some sort of fancy in-feed table maybe!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


just goes to show you-you really don't know who you are chatting with when online!


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## BIGSKY (Jan 23, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


ITS NOT JUST CABINET MAKERS ITS ALL CRAFTSMEN IN THE USA


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


That is the truth BIGSKY. How many jobs have we sent overseas that use to be done by American craftsmen. Yes they can do it cheaper in India, China, and Mexico. But by the same logic the government has poured billions into agriculture. I really don't believe in government subsidies, but maybe they could find a better simpler tax plan for the guy who only employs 2 people. The skills are traditionally passed down journeyman to apprentice, but if it takes days out of a persons work year to figure out all the different reports and deal with the bureaucracies just to keep one fellow working. Those skills will not be passed down. How many folks just get taught a few tricks and let lose rather than get to work with masters of a trade and really learn the art.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Hey Dennis;

That's an excellent idea. You should work on it!

You'll probably be rich in no time.

You know, there's another point where I often hear the price is too high. That too me, is somewhat shortsighted for number of reasons. I don't actually make the price. It's a combination of cost of goods plus, soft costs, and a profit. (someday)

One, I could get them made at a much lower price overseas, and sell them by the boatload. Or as my accountant suggested, build them to last for five years, so they're consumable. Not in my nature to do that. I'm more likely to try and make it last beyond the expected fifty year life span OF THE USER, not the product!

Or considering how much time and effort is saved, and with time being money, it would seem like a good addition to any shop. The increase in safety and accuracy would be enough for me to buy it.

One of the worst chores for me was to cut heavy sheet goods. Had I found any product to do what mine does, I would gladly have paid several hundred dollars for it, without giving it a second thought. After a short amount of use, it pays for itself, and from then on is making me money.

In my humble opinion, the whole world is back asswords. LOL

Or may I just have Drain Bamage.

Lee


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Well so many shops have tried to solve the problem by buying a $20,000.00 sliding table saw. How expensive is your product then? I figured out how many kitchens I would need to do to justify a line boring machine. If I had 10 employees and we did nothing but kitchens a boring machine would pay for it self. We out think our selves. An elegant solution is simple like the ezee-feed. I'm not yet sold on soft close technology…frankly I always thought those little plastic bumpers did a pretty good job.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


the expensive tools-another flaw in our society in recent years. The need to buy the biggest, best, more efficient machine. I had this debate with people, recently, regarding farmers and their zillion dollar tractors. I was told that farmers have to buy the big machines because it saves them time in the fields and saves on fuel. Alas, in the end, the farmers can't make ends meet. (There are lots of factors with farmers (who by the way grow our FOOD)-same as the stories for LumberJocks) but I think that a common problem with all businesses is the investment in the tools that we are told that we "need".

I was thinking about this discussion yesterday and about the need to educate. I pictured the woodworkers uniting to create a major ad campaign that talked about saving the planet by buying for life rather than the disposal society.. that compared the price of one handmade piece to the cost of a "cheaper" piece.. and compared the two pieces re: quality. Then in the bottom of the ad there were local craftsman's contact information. Anyway. that was my vision.

Keep making sawdust everyone!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


Dennis

I bought a 20,000 dollar saw but I didnt pay 20 grand, having said that I would have paid 20 grand had the "deal" not been dropped in my lap. The saw almost eliminates the need for a jointer, allows the "squaring of a sheet of plywood, allows one man to handle 5' x 10' sheets of material instead of two men, enables one to cut fancy veneer and melamines without chipping…........no more cabinets, door parts etc., out of square, no more returned parts due to chipping, hairline joints on large panels so contrary to what you are implying, the big expensive tool makes you more competitive, not more expensive.

I could say the same for an edgebander and a thickness sander. Had my bride had a little courage we would have bought both these tools years ago by cashing in a few mutaul funds and investments. (as it sits now the mutaul funds, RRSPs and investments arent worth much more then the deposit you pay on a case of beer) Putting a piece of 7/8" x 1 3/4" x 96' hardwood to the edge of an exposed gable would have taken seconds…..not hours. Sanding cabinet doors on a stroke sander is risky business and an average kitchen takes almost a week….....a thickness sander takes an hour. Doing the math its a…........ no brainer. The volume of work you can do in a month grows exponentially as do the profits. I dont have these two toys but I want them. Lucky me as I can use a friends toys for cheap.

Conversely a friend bought a CNC point to point router to the tune of about 50 grand just before the economic bubble popped. Plus the CAD programming, plus the training. I was at their shop just this week and watched three guys discuss what one guy should be doing. The panel on a floor to ceiling cabinet that houses two built in ovens wasnt CNC'd correctly. It took three guys almost 3 hours to find how to fix it. The panel was brought back to the CNC programmer for corrections and all decided that a new MDF panel was needed…......................means another CNC program, another sheet of MDF, another operation on the CNC and these owners scream about not making money…...............no %$#&2ing wonder. They entirely missed the fact that one guy could pick one sheet up and cut it out on the saw, mark the cutouts for ovens and cut the cut outs manually in a fraction of the time that CNC could do it. I'm not saying that CNC doesnt have a place becuase it does but the CNC cannot replace "common sense".

The soft close technology is expensive but…...............its some sweeeeet. Especially ina house full of pubescent teenage girls.

Cheers


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


MsDebbie re farmers.

They all swear they are poor…..................I beg to differ.

On smaller farms I have to agree that buying a brand new 150,000 dollar tractor is just plain stupid. A field yields so many bushels of product that pays a given price per bushel. If one acre yields 1,000 bushels and each bushel pays 10 dollars….................its a fixed 10,000 dollar gross income. Whether you use a new 150,000 dollar tractor or a used 10,000 dollar tractor the end gross income doesnt change whether you get your crop off in a day, or five days. I wonder how many farmers passed basic arithmatic. I can understand why HUGE farms need big equipment as the crop will rot if you dont get it off the field.

I am always curious as to some local farmers who scream "no money" who run to the grocery store instead of planting a garden


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


true. 
I live in "farm country" where there are lots of small farmers as well as the mega-farmers so that's where my discussion came from.

You are right-big business needs the big machines to get the job done. Or I think they do, anyway. .. maybe I'm still buying into the lies.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I guess what I am saying is that its not "black and white"....."Night and Day" decisions. A "BIG" tool can make you sink as fast as it can make you swim and visa versa. Too many companies keep all their profits, spend too little on R and D, dont invest in new technologies when times are good and do the blame game when times are tough


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


right.. THINK people.. think


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


I do understand good machinery. Every time I'm running my 3 inch belt sander I keep thinking of a wide belt…heck even 4" belt sander would help. Maybe one day I'll get a drum sander. But I would have to expand my shop. Same with a nice edgebander. I sure would love to have more than one shaper for doors. A spray booth is needed to. To do kitchens "right" I'd really need a few employees. I've watched a lot of these local shops getting swallowed up by debt. Today I'm feeling really blessed to have such a simple shop. ( I'd love a wide belt! )


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Shaking my head...we'll never learn*
> 
> I spent the day installing cabinets, I built, in a manufactured home. Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. Actually it was a sales office. They were busy. I guess the depression is driving folks to these "bargains".
> 
> ...


*To do kitchens "right" I'd really need a few employees.* Dennis, I am a one man band and as much as I would love to hire an apprentice or a journeyman I refrain from it as it opens up pandoras box…......the govt walks in ie workmans compensation, pension and UIC contributions, health care contributions, vacation pay and on and on and on. So its just me building project after project and if something goes wrong then I can only blame me.

I too see many shops right now swimming in seas of endless debt, some closing their doors,.......it's kinda sad. I left a company because the partner and I were never on the same page. he did buy the CNC and I am pretty sure its gonna sink the boat, not because he bought it, but because how its used and whos using it.

I occasionally do consulting work for big companies who are implimenting or expanding their kitchen department. After much hoopla on buying sliding TS, CNC etc they took my advice and farmed it all out. Why become a wolf when you can hire the whole pack and let them spend themselves into the ground.

Growing up in a fundemental Christian Home I was taught that everything is black or white…..........50 years later I have learned that life has a lot of "grey" in it.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Support your local cabinet maker*

One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I know the frustration first hand


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## oldskoolmodder (Apr 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I have a slight problem sometimes when friends and family brag about how much they spent at a big box store, instead of asking me if I'd like to offer a bid for whatever they need done.

I even have extended family out in Jarrod Zion Murphree's (Eagle Nest, NM.) neighborhood that spent a ton of money on Hickory cabinets in the kitchen at Home Depot. When I found out how much and how long it took to get the cabinets, 4-5 months lead time, I smiled (on the outside) and told him, I could have made them to his specs, and delivered and installed them (1000+ miles) and saved him money. (on the inside I was cursing him for wasting his money and not offering me a chance). He's been building this house for 2 years, while living in Manhattan, NY. and thinks because he HAD the money he should spend it all. Now the house won't be complete until at least late summer, because he's run out of money form over spending at big box stores.


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## buffalosean (Feb 15, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I've recently purchaced older hand tools from two different guys who inherited them for their fathers. they told me there fathers were cabinet makers who, started losing business, and ended up doing trim carpentry and rough framing. 
I find it amusing that many people think everything at home depot and lowes are the cheapest….. funny I've purchaced tools, material, and hardware cheaper from other places. I avoid going to the big giants unless it is an emergency.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Its a sad story thats being repeated across this country for a long time now..giant conglomerates pushing the smaller competition out. What the average home buyer doesn't understand that there is a measurable quality difference between your cabinets and the big boxes…even when you are bidding apples to apples. I don't care what you are buying at the big box..it is always in some way inferior to the similar product you can find elsewhere. That is how they get there profit margin..partly from mass quantity buying but also because they negotiate with the manufacturers to meet a certain price point and then they agree to move a certain quantity at that price…and to meet that price point manufacturers cut corners and use inferior materiels..plain and simple. Dennis I feel bad for guys like you and my friends and former employers that own cabinet shops here in CT that are taking it on the chin thanks to the big boxes. People are getting a product of lesser quality, and not saving any money in the process…


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


My advice is to make up a little homemade print out / or … that compares your features and competitive prices to Lowes. 
Hand it to your next potential customer before they have a chance to get away.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


that's a great idea Dan! Give the comparison.. they go to the stores and get a quote and come back as a believer!


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Ditto what Dan said. But you know, Dennis, sometimes it's a catch 22. I've had people not buy a piece of my furniture because the price wasn't high enough. I would've had no problem adjusting that, but sometimes I think high end stuff is a "status thing". I've had plenty of folks come by for an estimate on a custom built piece, and see something I've got made, that they just paid way too much for at a Stickley showroom, and say they wished they had waited. Rest assured though, there are plenty of people still around that know the value of handcrafted furniture, case goods, and cabinets. And they know that it doesn't come from the "Big Box" stores.
Keep the faith, Brother. They'll find you.


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## gbvinc (Aug 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Dan hit the nail on the head. Perception is everything in sales. If you have a price/quality comparison at hand and the same info committed to memory, you stand a good chance of turning a few heads your way. Just looking around in our market, I am surprised at how much the big boxes have slipped the prices up.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I have a toy shop(tool shop) just up the road from me and i only buy from him second hand i have never brought new tools i like to think that a better craftsman than me once used the tools that i now own and one day someone will feel the same as me so big stores never see my money LOL…........ as for trying to get people to change thier buying ways forget it they all like to think that they got abargin instore but never understand that the price is high in the first place and they think because its handmade its going to cost an arm and leg so my friend all i can say is keep trying …........

andy


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Dennis:

Don't waste another minute in complaining about the "new economy" - unless you are trying to host a pity party.

Here's my chant: "They (insert Walmart, Lowe's, HomeDepot etc.) can't compete with me."

Do what they can't do.
Do it better and charge accordingly.
More importantly, pursue the kinds of clients that won't do business them.

The artisans that I network with have proven that there still is, and perhaps more than ever, remains quality-seeking clients. Find them and give them the quality and pampering they want.

Rise to the opportunity and do what it takes.
After all, you are a member of the best - a LumberJock!

Get busy…


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## SawDustnSplinters (Jan 18, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


It Is funny I have customers who do not balk at a price and some who do. I tend to take it on the chin alot and just wait for the next appreciative customer to come along. There are clients who are extremely knowledgeable about woods, grain, figure, joinery, etc and I do not have to tell them anything. Then there are those that ask what wood is in every piece. I have got to where I can tell by the look in a customers eyes that they know quality and then there are those that have that "deer in the headlights" look. It is funny I remember at the last show some other vendors and I were talking and I mentioned I was going to make a wood sign for my booth that says something like, "IKEA we ain't", or "IKEA not spoken here"...or "You better call your better half and get permission before I tell you the price…hehe. Hang in there my friend..


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## kiwi1969 (Dec 22, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Don,t forget the word "convenience" . Most people like to see what they,re getting in the flesh before purchasing. you walk in, you see it, you lay down your cash and you walk out. Then it turns up at your house and someone else does the hard work for you. Simple.
Don,t know what marketing or promo stuff you have, but maybe a change of tactic would be in order? Can people get to you easily? can they see what you do? I,m just guessing at your set up so these are just my thoughts.
Maybe I could set up a factory here in asia for you if you really want to compete!


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## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I found that true as well, I had someone look at some birds I had made that i was selling for $4.00 a pair. They said to my face that they could find them cheaper elsewhere. I told them no you can't. These are hand made. So I told him to go ahead. People just don't understand.


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## Woodchuck1957 (Feb 4, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I learned my lesson at Menards when I priced out boards for a 6 ft cedar fence in the back yard. The 1" X 8" X 6ft boards were half the price at the local well established lumber yard, the boards I didn't like they exchanged with no problem. The same can be said for antique furniture, I've restored alot of it mostly for us and my sister, a few for other people, and they got a deal because I didn't want to be looked at like I was robbing them. Some people think antique furniture is junk. Well if you go by what Antiques Road Show preaches by leaveing the original finish on it, in most cases it probably is junk until it's restored. If we are talking a museum piece that is in good condition, by all means leave it alone, but most pieces aren't. I find it odd that people are willing to buy imported furniture at a fairly steep price, but won't spend the money to have an American made piece that is solid hardwood. Antique furniture restorers in this town have dried up, at one time there were around a half a dozen of them, now I'm not sure if you find a bussiness that does it anymore. I guess in all fairness though, I have bought some imported furniture that were solid hardwood cheaper than the materials would of cost me, but I know what to look for, I don't think the majority of the public has a clue about what is veneered and what is solid, they just know it looks good.


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## BethMartin (Feb 24, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Hiring a cabinetmaker is intimidating. I imagine a lot of people are afraid to ask because they assume that they can't afford it and would be wasting your time asking you to come by and give a quote. I know that I think that way. That's why I do a lot of work myself! Definitely do as previous posters have suggested - price out a setup purchased from the big box stores and have your price for a comparable setup and say why yours is better. The more information you can give out without a person asking, the better! If you have a website, put your comparision up there. (if you don't have a website, definitely get one.) I would love it if people not only showed pictures of their work, but also were upfront about how much that you charged for it. If you don't give me any chance to "assume" anything, I won't!


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## lightweightladylefty (Mar 27, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I fully understand what you are saying. I had previously thought that I couldn't afford custom cabinets. Then my siblings all built new homes with custom cabinets that cost half of what the big box stores charge. When we were ready to remodel our kitchen, we got prices from Menard's and two custom cabinetmakers. One custom place was twice the price of Menard's but the other cabinetmaker's price was comparable to Menard's except I got what I wanted and didn't have to compromise on my design (and his price included installation). The more expensive custom shop wasn't willing to make what I wanted. They had their own ideas. Ultimately I ended up making my own island (which I'll post some day) because the assembly was so detailed, but we didn't have room in our tiny shop to make all the kitchen and dining cabinets.

I would have liked a detailed comparison so I could have known if I could afford custom cabinets when I remodeled a previous kitchen. I never even asked because I was certain I couldn't afford them. After all, the big cabinet companies offer 50%, 75% and more off their "retail" prices. Custom cabinetmakers just give the "real" price to begin with!


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## JohnGray (Oct 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


You are now experiencing working with the Great American Public.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


From what i can gather, places like Lowes and Home dep are very clever at making their product look affordable up front….That is until you decide you actually want doors, glass in glass doors, drawers, a finish, rollouts, decent slides, hardware, delivery, counter tops, installation, old cabinets removed, old cabinets hauled off…..We all know the speil. The sticker price in the showroom is just there to put forth a perception of savings.

This is the same dynamic that makes people drive 20 miles to get gas 3 cents cheaper, without any thought to the higher priced cup of coffee they buy while there negates any monies saved at all.


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I think we all may have created this perception of costing more. When the economy was good I am sure you balked at people that wanted to price your "exclusive hand built custom made" cabinets <grin> , and rightfully so. When work is plentiful we should be paid more, there are only so many hours in a day and my free time (not sure about yours  is valuable.

So change tactics now, post comparisons, create a simple easy to make (insert whatever item here) cabinet that competes with HomeD so you can show customers you are less expensive and tell your friends that times being what they are, we are all making things for less now (and happy to). Times will not always be hard (God please let that be true) so we really want to keep the idea that our time is more valuable and while we are worth more for all the great work.

It is Sunday and I need more coffee, good luck and keep on swinging


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I've seen many cabinet shops claim they do "high end"...........only in thir dreams.

Theres a saying….........."if you cant beat em, join em", I occasionally buy kitchens. Built, finished, assembled, wrapped and delivered to my door, for less money then I could even buy just the materials….............mark them up, and re-sell them. Theres probably more profit doing this, then making them.

Cheers


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Hi Dennis;

So true, especially if the client wants something "custom", like a 29" cabinet, instead of a 28" and a 1" filler strip.

If only people would just ask!

I recently installed a floor in a new kitchen. The kitchen was done by sears. I was installing a custom kitchen for a neighbor, and was told they would be asking me for an estimate, but they ended just going with the sears proposal. I know they now regret that speedy decision, as they weren't happy with the results.

And, as you well know, the quality of the cabinets are not equal to that of custom cabinets.

I can say they did get less than expected, and they, nor I was not overly impressed with the workmanship.

Oh well, live and learn.

Lee


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


I'm not a professional Cabinetmaker and I sure don't envy you guys that are. 
It's tough demanding , unforgiving and filled with tiny things to trip you up.

I am a business guy however and I will suggest this to you:

Get the most outrageous business card you can find. 
Raised script , embossed gold and find print.
The kind and English Duke might hand out.
Dont put a picture of tables on it!

Don't tell them what you can do until they have told you what they want. 
They will most likely tell you what the other estimates contain at this point.

Ask if they have received a measured drawing of the job. ( tells you how far along they are to committing)
***Get a copy for your notes.
From this interview, try to list a bill of materials and present them with a similar bill at the same price with a list of options beside it. ( do not leave a copy of this estimate with them unless they show interest in your proposal.)
At this juncture present your portfolio and leave them a brochure. 
Tell them if they are interested in pursuing the job with you that you can accommodate it in 1,2 3 weeks for and estimated completion of 3, 4, 5 weeks.
What I am building here guys is you image of a competent guy who is helpful yet dosen't not beg the sale.
Most folks recognize this and those that dont weed out early on pricing.
Most important is the estimate. All things not quoted on the estimate are "extras" 
Make your estimate as accurate as possible and don't include things not asked for.

Try it once.

Bob


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


Hi Bob,

Well said.

Lee


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Support your local cabinet maker*
> 
> One more time someone told me I was too expensive so they got their cabinets at Lowes. Did they ask me for my price…No! They just assumed. The reality is every time I've bid against Lowes and apples were apples my bid was cheaper. I guess we can get brain washed. I've even seen that prejudice here at Lumberjocks. Yes most shops have gone after a high end clientele. It might even be hard to find a local cabinet maker who would do "low end" work. We even have a tendency to believe we can't compete. I know I've been surprised at how much cheaper I am than these big box stores. Then again I don't have that high over head. Heck I wont even charge you $50.00 to measure your kitchen.


As I sit here drinking my sleepy time tea I thought of an idea for you-all ....

I bet a lot of NBA players and staff like hand made furniture or a nice box oar-something.

Might be a good place to mail some brochures or write a email or letter.

Try twittering SHAQ, I think he has a public site. Ask him what to do.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Etsy update*

I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat. 
Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


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## gbvinc (Aug 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Interesting to know.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I wonder how other lumberjocks are doing on Etsy. Anybody want to fess up on their sales volumes via Etsy? Worth it, or should we all stick to sales flyers in the laundromat?


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## gizmodyne (Mar 15, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Hi Dennis.

Not one to miss out on griping, but here are some thoughts or suggestions.

I looked at your projects and you have awesome things for sale. I like the baskets in particular. Then I looked through some of the top sellers for someone who sells wood objects.

Here is one for example http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=22517563

They are writing not just a basic description of the item, but a story. That is how most catalogs work.

I know it would add more time to your work, but writing a story of the object might attract sales.

Example: The buffalo cutting boards.

Someone who buys a buffalo shaped cutting board is probably into the west, Native Americans, Log cabins, etc.

Sell them on the romance of the buffalo and the lost frontier. A little history of this rapidly vanishing great animal, formerly a fixture in the American West. Get them to imagine the board in the kitchen of their cabin, or as perfect for a steak bbQ. (Just brainstorming here).

Then tell how you made the board. This board is created by a time intensive process that includes …..yada, yada. The inlays are created from X rare wood. I applied a hand rubbed food safe finish. Such and such.

Also perfect as a gift or can be hung as art.

Marc Decou does a good job letting readers of his ETSY page know who he is by writing in first person.

If writing is not your thing have a friend write it for you. Pick up some catalogs at furniture stores and see how they describe their stuff. Here is a random potterbarn tray with a one sentence description that sells the piece: http://www.potterybarn.com/products/p12595/index.cfm?pkey=cbaskets-trays

Carry on. You have great products.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


That is good info, John. If I can refine my presentation to a point where I actually can sell my stuff then this experiment will be a success. To bad I can't complain my way to success. Maybe I need a radio show…


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


I completely agree with John.

People are buying a piece of "you" when they buy from an artist or a piece of where you are from. The back story is important.

People from Ohio are intrigued by my stories of Montana and they are all true. I really hike and climb the mountains. They buy my work and then point to it telling everyone, "That guy from Montana made this! He climbs mountains, and hikes in the wilderness…."

I call this the "Montana Mystique" and it helps sales. Play the Idaho or western mystique for what you can. Many artists I know make lots of sales to Japan and Germany. These countries are mystified and intrigued by the "wild west" and it's culture.


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


As with any venture it usually takes a long time to build up a clientele and then a following. If you do what you enjoy then success is just a by product. If you really want to make money get a gov job at a mint <girn>

Good luck with sales. It is hard to make money turning wood into anything useful other than BTUs (mostly kidding - remember if you are not laughing your not living)


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Dennis, I set up an Etsy store for about 6 months and had two sales. I tried the "Showcase" with no luck and came to the conclusion that Etsy is probably good for procesing sales transactions, but is not the place to actually sell anything. It was my impression that unless people are looking for exactly what you're selling, there little chance that they'll find you. Fortunately, the things I make are not my current livelihood (maybe someday), so I emptied my "store" and had better luck at small craft shows.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Dennis - your gloomy sense of humor is priceless.

Marc DeCou seems to be doing pretty well with a LumberJocks/Etsy arrangement. You might spend some time looking at his presentation, and then adapt it to fit your products and personality.


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## darryl (Jul 22, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Dennis, I've got to agree with the comments above. I think you need to sell yourself as much (if not more) than the items you have posted. Not to hop on the overhyped "green" marketing theme, but I think you should talk about your interest in working with natural materials and inspirations that bring you to create your baskets and coat rack.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


You might also look at some craft and decorating magazines and catalogs and look for "catch words" that are currently being used that you can use in your descriptions. A couple of years ago I was doing some "rustic" cabinets, and now I'm doing some "knotty" cabinets that are basically the same thing. The popular terminology changes as much or more than the styles do.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


I love stories! I think that is a great tip. 
Looking forward to reading what you come up with


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


I have an etsy store too and haven't sold anything. People have favorited some items but nothing sells. I have jewelry and woodwork on there. I think the major problem is that there are so many people on there trying to sell things. There's a guy that sales $5 items. How can you make something for $5? An hours worth of work should be minimum wage + materials at the very minimum. I have and never will understand how there could be tables for sale for $49 when the labor alone would cost twice as much. So what's my thought on etsy? It's just another time waister. Even if you sell something it's at a price to cheap to make a profit. If you want to keep it though I'm sure marketing plays a significant role. You can't just set up an account and expect people to buy. Nobody knows your store exists there, and with the thousands of other stores it would be by chance that someone stumbles across you. And that person is not looking for what you are selling. So you need to market. When you market your etsy store you are also marketing etsy. This gives the buyer the chance to purchase a similar product from someone else there. So you need to know your competitions prices and charge similarly. Your presentation needs to speak volumes of your work and personality. If you go to church say so and make a deal out of it. People will buy from someone they trust and everyone trusts people who attend church. You need to keep the buyers interest when they arrive at your store. If it looks simple or boring they will leave. So you need to "fruit" it up and make it appealing. Add a link to your store EVERYWHERE you post, whether its here or somewhere like myspace or facebook. If you want traffic get a myspace and facebook account just to advertise your etsy store. Post an item for sale on craigslist every few days and at the bottom of the description write "please see my other work at blah blah etsy.com. It's all about getting eyes to your site. As for me, my pessimistic whiny lazy attitude keeps me from doing anything so I just complain. Definitely not the attitude to have in this economy. HHMMM if I know that why won't I change…...off to think about it. Good luck.


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## majeagle1 (Oct 29, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Good Post Dennis…........ I'll jump right on with you, at least for now. I have an etsy site and have only sold 5 item in 3 months….................. however, having said that, and read the above comments to your post, there is alot of good info/tips here. I agree that marketing is probably the key and as well how you word your presentation of your item for sale. ( I need to work on that ). So I have some to do's on this now and am hoping for better results. I only have about 6 items out there now, will probably add a few more in a week or so. The price is right so I'll hang in there for now. I haven't done any craft shows before so I may try that avenue now that the weather is getting good. 
To add another aspect onto this, what does anybody think of EBAY? Even though their fees are outrageous!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Fees! That will be a whole other grumble! I've done a few shows. (with results about equal to etsy's) The fees for a booth were $$$.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Hi Dennis,
I was thinking maybe you should have an outdoorsy, or natural background of your images on Etsy.

Maybe setting on a big boulder, or some river rock. If you have photoshop maybe you could use that beautiful sky for a background.

I wasted 3 months trying to sell my old bandsaw on craigslist, & finally put an ad in our local shopper.

I sold it the first day the shopper was delivered to the doorsteps.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


I'm seeing a "theme" develop. 
Creating the image of who you are and what you do through the stories and the backgrounds - all backdrops to your products. Great tips. I'm getting excited to see what is next!


----------



## BassBully (Mar 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Dennis,

I'm somewhat skeptical of Etsy as well and no offense to the other suggestions here but are these suggestions proven to work?

The reason why I'm skeptical of Etsy is that there are so many listings that one person's product easily becomes drowned out by the rest of the noise. I have a woodcarving listed on Etsy with only 27 views. I originally had it priced at $45 but lowered it to $25 as a test. No luck. I have a personalized message about the product like others have suggested and it's tagged pretty well too. I'm not saying that my carving is so good that it should sell; however, with only 27 views after several months listed; that says to me that something's wrong.

I once searched for carvings in order to compare my carvings to others in order to find a price point. There were 600 pages and nine items per page. That's 5400 items to compete with. Way too many. I figured, no matter how well I decorate my page, who's going to look through 600 pages of carvings and if they did, what are the odds that they'd like mine? If they created better navigational tools, it might help.

So, I'm thinking about creating my own website. I'm fortunate enough to be an Application Developer and have the know-how to get it started. I figure that I can personalize it how I want and will have greater control over the site and it's contents. Although I will have one site amongst millions on the web, it won't be shuffled amongst 3,000 Etsy listings.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


BassBully - can we get a link to the listing??


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## MortyNTenon (Apr 19, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


I think you need to give it time. My mom has been selling scrapbooking items on etsy. She started out just like you with not much happening, after a couple things finally sold, word got out about her products and now somedays she can't keep up with demand.

Tim


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Why don't you try this new site called Woodshoppers.com.

It's fairly new, & there shouldn't be much competition.

It's run by krum, one of our members.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


That sounds like a winner Dick.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


Any luck yet on Etsy?


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Etsy update*
> 
> I'm going to throw a pity party and you are all invited. When I get some good news I'll pass that along to. (First I'll have to get my taxes out of the way). It has been three months that I've been running this Etsy shop. I know some artisans have done OK. I'm pretty sure if I dedicated the time and energy I would have had better results. First off the price is great. The time to setup shop and download photos is significant. I figure when all is said and done I've got 1/2 hour per project. At a shop rate of $35.00 and hour….I'm not getting paid for my time. By the way this was just an experiment. I didn't expect to make much. Call it market research. Testing to see if my baskets or cutting boards would sell. The answer is no. Not a single sale. I've checked out the stats on a cutting board, 27 views. In the same time frame the one I had on lumberjocks got 495 views. 75% of the visits I got on my etsy site where from lumberjocks. My conclusion is that, once again we have more hype than substance. I would have been better off photocopying a flyer and posting it in the local Laundromat.
> Just so you know I'm really getting a kick out of being a grouchy pessimist. It warms my heart.


No luck yet. I took a few projects down just to give them away.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Splinters*

I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


my experience is that … elm splinters sting the absolute most. After the first elm splinter, you always remember to avoid getting another.


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## FlWoodRat (Sep 12, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Hmmm, good reason to wear work gloves?


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


ouch…i have had a few in my days…and at 39 i discovered I may need the goggles soon…I am moving small print out a little further these days…

I cant imagine how bad it will be when I am your age…crap…this is depressing.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


phew.. silver linings!!


----------



## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Know what you mean. I've got those WalMart reading glasses all over the house and the shop. I've got the 3x power ones with the tweezers.


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## Larry (Nov 14, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Hey Dennis - I think it was Harbor Freight that had a pair of tweezers that have a magnifying glass attached - that may help - other wise - if a little bit of the splinter is showing - use "Super Glue" let it dry - then lift it off and the splinter comes out - Super Glue - like duct tape - is a fix all - works great on paper cuts, blisters, small scrapes, stings like heck, but takes the hurt away, is a temporary band aid - and all is well after. Bye the Bye is it blowing out North of Town - ??


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Dang Dennis I was hopping to get uplifted today coming from the bedroom, my wife brought me some coffee, so picture me in my pajamas and robe and slippers dragging a bag of youknowwhat between my legs out to plop down in my chair in front of the computer expecting a great day listening to all you guys just telling me about all the money you're making working away in your dusty little shops all over the world. Squinty little eyes peeking thru bushy eyebrows and bushy beards happy as little birdys in piles of dung in winter. What do I hear, You of all people Dennis whining about splinters. Heck, I used to bust my thumb every day. No kidding. It is now permanetly blue er dark brown well kinda brackish colored. Anyway, the guys at work even made me a thumb blocker they called it, from the top of a litre bottle of pop. They just cut it off at the very end so I could stick my thumb in it and it would'nt get broke any more. Do you know what plastic does in winter when it gets real cold. It shatters just like glass. You guessed it, the very first blow, I shattered that sucker into a gazillion pieces, most of which stuck in my thumb. Splinters? Naw that wasn't the worst thing. Well I'm gonna drag er go back and lay down. It don't hurt as much. Sorry bout your splinters Pal, but sometimes you know you should thank your lucky stars you don't have idiots for buddys.


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## darryl (Jul 22, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


seems like jockmike just put everything into perspective for us! haha!!
thanks Mike, hope you are feeling better.

and Dennis, splinters can be an almighty b*tch sometimes!


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Gosh, Dennis, I haven't gotten a splinter for 2 weeks. It's almost pleasant. Now I'm watching our for horse shoe nails and horns. Here's looking at ya!!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Ya Mike come to think of it i might have a few of those idiot buddies. Buddy.


----------



## oldskoolmodder (Apr 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


The worst splinter I can remember having was from 1/4" luan. I never did get it out, no matter how much I tried pulling it out or poking a needle in, or as a last resort, using an exacto knife to slice the skin. I probably just pushed it in more. It hurt for a few weeks and I'm assuming it was just "eaten" by my body at some point. I found out I'm no surgeon.

May explain a few things about me, come to think of it.


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Second the silver lining from Sister Debbie over in the amen corner! Can I get a witness!

If you don't already have some, a pair of Uncle Bill's tweezers work great if you can get a bead on the sucker.


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## wooleywoodsmith (Mar 14, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


ahhh Dennis you should just let it fester until it works its way out. Yeah I know that doesn't work eather. And at 39 I too have all the magnifiying glasses around the house, it was real uguly when I went to the eye dr and had him perscribe me a pair of safty glasses for the shop. The tweezers with the magnifier attached are a blessing


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## RAH (Oct 14, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


The best thing about getting a splinter is when you pull it out, Oh what a feeling.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


That looks like some pretty good tweezers Doug.

This isn't related to wood, but Years ago, over 50 years ago, I was rebuilding diesel engine cylinder heads.

I used a wire brush wheel to clean the carbon off of the valves.

I developed a bump between my knuckles that kept getting larger..

There was no pain, just a bump that looked like another knuckle.

One day, I notice a black dot on the top of the bump. It was a piece of wire starting to poke through the skin.

I pulled out a 1/2" long piece wire with a tweezers, & in a few days the bump disappeared.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


I keep a proper medical kit in my studio and a smaller one that I carry when out in the woods gathering materials. My kit is based upon my experiences with the military (Medical Corp, 101st Airborne) and in various jungles around the world. To that I add some home-brew medicines.

I'll add thorns to this list, since they seem to seek me out when I'm in the woods. Black locust and wild briar are plentiful in this part of Kentucky. I love to use black locust wood and their thorns love to embed themselves in my flesh. Good tweezers and a native poultice made from sassafras leaves, spice bush and goose grease seems to help when modern medicine offers nothing better. My grandparents "injunuity" is priceless knowledge.

Lumber is a many splintered thing…


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


I tried planting a Black Locust once, but it winter killed in our cold climate.

I'm glad it died, because I don't like thorns.


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Dick:

Black locust is plentiful around here. It is very hard and rot resistant. It's popular for building fences that will outlast their makers.

I like to use it in rustic creations because of its colorful and wild grain. Although it is hard to work with, the results are worth the effort.

And like its thorns, black locust can produce some very nasty splinters.
Local natives have used it to make bows and darts for rivercane blow pipes.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Randy,
I guess I won't be able to make any poison darts then. <O}#


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Once when I was at the Frank Miller Lumber Co. the salesman told be that he gets splinters from just walking past a stack of Wenge.


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## getneds (Mar 18, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


When I'm rough cutting and milling my material i use the rubber coated gloves from Home Cheapo the blue or yellow. They fit nice and tight and actually help a LOT when it comes to splinters. I hate those monday morning splinters around 6:15 AM, yeah you know. The one that gets in the crease of your finger at the second knuckle…...
I know they say gloves are a danger but I feel it's the loose "work"gloves that can cause a threat. These are a tight fitting, no hanging parts glove. I'm no salesman but I am a happier typer at night because of them….

Splinter on


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


Splinters, splinters, what would us woodworkers do without them? I don't think I have a week go by that I don't have one or more of them b___'s to deal with. That's just part of woodworking my friends. I don't mean this in a bad way, just part of the job.


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## i82much (Feb 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Splinters*
> 
> I am pretty immune to the little buggers. I figure I can dig a splinter out with a Phillips screwdriver while running 4X8's through the table saw. These days I'm having to use those special magnifying goggles just to see them. For some reason they are making them smaller these days. I think it has something to do with global warming. The other day I got the worst of my career. It wasn't that big. Big ones are easy. This was a skinny little oak splinter about 3/8's long. Somehow it managed to slide along the top of my finger nail and just disappear. Ouch it was worst than a paper cut and totally invisible. I wasn't even sure it was a splinter. I've had them before under my finger nail…and I know why they call that torture. This one was just evil. I just sat there staring at my red finger with my magic glasses wondering if I've lost my mind. Where could it be? After digging for an hour or so (ok maybe just a minute) I did mange to locate it. An hour (felt like it anyway) after that I manage to get it out with tweezers. I can't help but be damn grateful it's a splinter getting under my skin and not some power hungry greedy incompetent boss with an inferiority complex and anger issues. Ya I LOVE my life!


awhile back I was working on something and didnt have the time to search for all the splinters I got.
After I was done staining, I noticed that the splinters were stained also.
Sure made it easy to get out


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Taxes!*

Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half. 
Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
So I guess you need to know living on half my income is making me damn grateful! Yep all you poor suckers doing that work produce consume dance. You have my sympathy. Let me tell you about my typical day. When I get out of bed…guess what no alarm clock! First I visit with the dogs, my wife, and all my buddies on Lumberjock. Take the nice stroll out to the shop and work for an hour…maybe two. Check the mail..maybe do lunch. Then back to the shop. I really try to get my full four hours in a day. On a good day I do my best piddling. Piddle on the house. Maybe piddle in the garden. Some days I piddle in the shop. The last few days I've been doing some carving on a bed for the gallery which shows my furniture. 
Ya taxes suck, so I figure maybe I'll just quit making so much Damn money. Life is too short!
Then again with my hectic schedule I still haven't found time to go fishing! I'm going to have to fix that.


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## bluchz (Mar 1, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Taxes Schmaxes, go fishing and let the wife worry about them lol.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Whats needed is a new word. Incentivate. As in "I sure need incentivating before i get busy innovating".


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


That's what I like about you Dennis,

You don't seem greedy, & you're enjoying your life to the fullest.

*"JUST PIDDLING"*


----------



## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Looks like you live the life I aspire to . Someday I'll get there!


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## spanky46 (Feb 12, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Life is hell isn't it! haha
Happy for you!


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Hi Dennis;

Why did you tell everyone how tough we have it.

Now everyone's going to want to stop doing the nine to five thing.

Well, I have a lot more to say about this, but it's almost 2:30. Time for my nap.

But, now I'll probably toss and turn for minutes. I hate that!

Well written! Keep up the struggle!

Lee


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## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


miles had it dead on i think….but yeah, i agree it's not what you're making it's what you make out of it. I don't make much right now, but i don't waste much either…and usually what i do spend it on holds most of its value or I make money off in the end, i guess i should be glad i never put that money in stocks right? just wondering, what are the rest of you guys doing in planning of higher taxes/inflation in upcoming years?


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


I've watched enough Antique Road Show to know my stuffs gonna be more valuable after i'm dead. I'm thinking the government should go ahead and pay me that increased value while i'm alive. Sort of like a reverse mortgage on my after death earnings.`Or they could just pay me not to do woodwork, like they pay farmers not to plant.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


...pay me not to work…that just might work. It sure worked for AIG/CityBank/GM/Congress. I'd have to live with the half million lid on my wages and that would be almost unbearable!


----------



## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Thanks for the laughter , Dennis : )


----------



## baller (Nov 14, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


lol dennis….sure i disagree with a lot of what's going on, but if you're saying that we should cap all "executive" pay why would anyone spend the big bucks on the education needed to reach those levels of income (for the most part)? or should we just ditch the whole college thing, it's all a scam right? lol you could relate it to woodworking in that the value of your work will most likely be much higher if you were say, one of maloof's or marks' apprentices rather than a cabinet maker at home depot which would have made you much more money in the short run, but a lot less in the long haul….is this making sense to anyone other than myself? lol


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


No I don't think we need to cap their pay, or bail out their companies. Let them suffer the consequences of their behavior… but you are right to f&^! things up as bad as they did you do need a college degree.


----------



## patshwigar (Jun 6, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


*go fishing dennis. go fishing. *


----------



## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Hey Dennis:

Nap is my favorite four-letter word.

Whoops, I means *NAPS*.


----------



## BIGSKY (Jan 23, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


MAKES ME WANT TO MOVE BACK TO MONTANA AND JUST DO WOOD


----------



## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


I never nap during the day, it messes up my 10 hour overnight sleep. Thats why I need compensation, and disability, wait, I'm already getting that. Maybe like the bird in the cowpie I should keep my tweeter shut.


----------



## FJDIII (Dec 20, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Live simple, stupid, I love it Dennis! Simple enough to be happy and not stupid enough to get caught in the rat race that everyone tries to convince us we have to participate in. Your buddy is my hero as well! Enjoy your piddling and one day I hope to join your hectic schedule.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


isn't it interesting to find out how many "need" things we can live without!


----------



## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


"Ya taxes suck, so I figure maybe I'll just quit making so much Damn money. Life is too short!"

True words. I quit my $150,000 a year job a few weeks ago. I am tired of paying taxes and working at a job that gives nothing but $ in return. I'll be 50 in June and I have that house in the woods with no stress and while I may miss having lots of $$ I wont miss any of the BS. Life is good  Do what you enjoy, don't let TV tell you that you have to have all the other things. Friends family and a respect for all, that is all I need/want (and some good food/wine now and again). A job that supports this gov (?), not in my future. I am working to create a big garden now


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Too many people actually believe they're getting a tax cut. A tax cut is simply slight of hand…"Hey, look over here" while they raise taxes on every business ordinary Americans buy goods and services from. I'm more disgusted with Americans who cant figure this simple scam out than i am with the govt that implements it.

Just think of it as the govt outsourcing taxes to businesses. And all the idiots see is how wonderful it is to have a tax cut.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


reminds me of the time I did income tax returns for a living. 
People would be mad because they weren't getting any money back-"you don't get back money if you didn't put any in-and you have to put MORE in during the year that what you needed to. That's how you get money back"... many people expected free money coming their way.
I was also threatened. A gentleman said to me, "Someone should shoot you for taking people's money like this." I just helped you out be filling out your return for you-I don't write the tax laws…

oh and I can't forget the time that a gentleman refused to let me do his tax return because I was stupid - why was I stupid? Because I picked up the pencil in my left hand. Yes, left-handed people are too stupid to complete a tax return.

Sorry to get off track… back to woodworking


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Left handed!
That explains a lot….


----------



## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


There are a lot of great trout streams in Idaho. Gather up the waders and fly rod and GO. Springtime is happening!


----------



## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


I have not fished in 25 years, I think it is time to pick up a rod and spoil a child 

Me being the child


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Taxes!*
> 
> Yep that time of year. Folks are having tea parties. The economy going south. I get to see my year end, bottom line, financial worth. I don't think it will impress anyone. It sure made me wonder. This self employment gig has cut my income in half.
> Maybe I need to tell you about one of my heroes. I have this buddy. Plays a mean guitar. He also is a craftsman. Does some very nice, high end, upholstery work in an 8 X 12 shop. A few years ago he was telling me how he "just gets by" on ten thousand a year. Poverty right? Yet he has a beautiful house in the mountains. Which he built himself..no mortgage. It is next to this great little trout stream. He has a few horses. Every few months he travels across the US to play music. Last year he traded a building a deck for a trip to Italy. His life is beautifully abundant.
> ...


Humm…trout, bass, or sturgeon? I might have to make three trips!


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*The world is her litterbox*

A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.








She use to be scared of every thing. People, noise, dogs…now days she has no fear. I figured out that she has lost her eye sight and her hearing. She is getting along in years. She does a great Stevie Wonder impersonation where she climbs up on something high and moves her head back and forth. Just like Stevie. Most of the time I take a break and get on LumberJocks she is sitting on my shoulders, supervising. I figured it was time you guys got to meet her. So folks meet my cat, Squeak. Shop forecat.


----------



## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


where is the cat? Just kidding Squeak…nice to meet you!


----------



## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


By the way…i dont have a shop cat or dog…just a shop dummy…me.


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


This is one far out cat .


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Dennis!

You're the creator of the first cat, dust collector.

You should get a patent on this.<(;O}#


----------



## patshwigar (Jun 6, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


*lol. looks like my cat from h ell. my cats and dogs. sleep near me they get covered in wood chips. lol then they run thunthe house and scatter them. all over.

cute cat.*


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


I would have to say at least deaf!

That's one interesting cat.


----------



## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Really Neat.

I imagine you have to be extra careful- covered with saw dust like that, you might not see her and trip over her- or worse, step on her!


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Looks like my shop. But my visiting cat keeps herself a little cleaner.

I'll have to get a picture of Kattie Kitty.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


It's amazing that these critters are oblivious to the dangers that are obvious to us; trusting us to make sure they don't get hurt. They become part of our lives and we let them, then pretend to be annoyed. It's clear the Squeak is quite confident in her position and knows that you're a kind man underneath the Grumbles.


----------



## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


you sure you didn't leave a prescription bottle open, or maybe some medicinal brownies unattended?
My dog will sleep by my tablesaw, or on the lawn when i am mowing it, but he is just lazy, not blind or deaf.
never seen a cat do that though. it must really enjoy your company.
thanks for the post


----------



## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Hi Dennis;

I thought the dogs were bad. When I use a router, they'll stand there watching, and blinking.

Stupid dogs!

Lee


----------



## tmblweed0429 (May 2, 2009)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


I heard a story where a guy was sawing at his table saw and his dog jumped up on him, pushing his hand into the blade. I hope your cat doesn't cause an accident. He sounds pretty cool though. I can't believe how comfortable he is laying among that sawdust. Really amazing. By the way, try using Nature's Miracle on the carpet, it will eliminate any stains or odors.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Before she lost all her sight she would jump up on the table saw and walk right towards the moving blade. I do have to keep an eye on her.


----------



## Miket (Jan 27, 2008)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Very strange acting cat.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


aaaaaaaaaaw sitting on your shoulder. 
I'm glad I got to meet her!! Big squeeze to Squeak!


----------



## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Cute


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


I found Squeak dead this morning. She was 17. I need to go clean her sawdust piles one last time…I'll miss her.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


oh Dennis  
I'm so sorry. 
17 .
Still…..


----------



## Max (Sep 13, 2006)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


Dennis, I am truly sorry to hear of the loss. You become so attached to the little critters…


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *The world is her litterbox*
> 
> A few years back my cat decided to get untrained. She started crapping behind the furniture. It was pretty strange. The solution was to move her to the shop where she has access to plenty of sawdust. So I get to share my shop with cat crap. Wonderful. This cat loves to ride on my shoulders. She will sit up there while I'm cutting 4X8's or at the miter saw and just purr away. She will also stand right under your feet or try to climb your legs while at the saw! This picture is her sleeping while I'm running the table saw.
> 
> ...


That is an unfortunate loss. 17 years is a long time and them critters make themselves part of the family. I am most sorry.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Another gallery done gone*

Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


----------



## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


I would say that you are lucky if you got your pieces back from the gallery.

I know plenty of artists that had galleries close on them and their artwork ended up in the gallery owner's mcmansion after the store closed. The gallery owners never let the artists know they were closing and their pieces were never recovered.

I know and personally share the same frustrations as you do when it comes to construction budgets and the cheap decisions that are made. I have done a lot of repairs and upgrades on commercial cabinets exactly on the items that you mention; hinges and drawer glides.

Right now I am really excited to have an abundance of work and I will focus on making hay while the sun shines.


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Dennis: I'm glad you can recover your projects. And I hope that the work contuinues. Give them your business card when they want to repair the cabinets.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


I hope that one of the changes in our society, that will come from this economic stress, is that people will learn to buy quality and for endurance rather than the quick fix and replaceable.

Just like the "100 mile diet" and eating organic has taken a strong hold on our society, perhaps, with a little education people will again start buying for permanence. Now.. how do we create this educational trend?

(and I too am glad that you got your work back from the gallery)


----------



## woodnut (Apr 22, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Dennis, I am a small one man shop. I will ususally get a couple big jobs during a year. I do this part time so I do have something to fall back on, but I put a bid in a couple weeks ago for 30' of upper and lower cabinets and a serving bar that was 28' long. I was alittle higher on my bid, but was going to get the job, then a cabinet dealer ( premade stuff) dropped his bid $2,500 dollars. So no doubt he got the job.This also has me scratching my head. How can he aford to drop his price that much and still make money. I know that he is not saleing custom cabinets, but still $2,500.00 dollars is a lot to be able to give up. How much was he going to make before he dropped his price? I know that I could not do it.


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


A few years ago I worked at the largest air conditioning plant in the world. With nearly 2 million in mfg space it had 16 assembly lines. In its hay day it employed thousands of people. As a supplier quality manager I remember an incident that has stuck with me. A buyer found a better price on sheet metal screws in China. The price difference in volume was was only .004 cheaper per screw,with a very high usage the annual savings was 52 thousand bucks.

A couple years later the factory was moved to Mexico and closed. The average hourly rate in the US plant was probably 15 bucks an hour. The workers in Mexico made about 3 bucks or so. An Mexican engineer made around a thousand a month. Plant managers in Mexico made about 40k a year.

Change… a little off topic … but another grumble


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


It all started in the 80s with bust the union and the good paying jobs going away. In the 90s totally free trade took more. We are the only country in teh world with wide open borders. They benefit the large corps who are killing their own market. It is finally catching up with them. Today the economy based on credit is failing. Too bad it will have to get worse before the process starts it's cycle all over again.

Glad to hear you didn't loose your work to a dishonest gallery owner.


----------



## kiwi1969 (Dec 22, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Hey Dennis, if all the companies you worked for are closed and all the galleries you supply are closed, maybe it,s you. You,re a jinx!


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Hey Dennis
I'm sorry about the gallery but glad about you getting your furniture back. I have only made about 10% of what I made last year at this time. I'm grateful to have that much it's better than ZIP.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Yep kiwi…I know I'm a jinx. The furniture work I do is VERY non marketable.


----------



## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Dennis - I just bid a kitchen in a 6000 square foot custom home - 79 linear feet of hickory cabinets. Only two bids were submitted for the kitchen, mine and stock cabinets from a lumber yard. The lumber yard bid was less than half my bid. Oops!

I always wonder why, with the word "custom" in the name of my business, people think I might have better prices than companies who build thousands of identical cabinets out of junk materials.

People's comments about not getting furniture back from galleries makes me want to suggest that you get an acceptance document from the gallery for each piece, stating that they accept responsibility for the piece and it will be returned to you or you will receive a payment of $XX.

Hang in there Dennis. You do beautiful work. I know people who know your work. Have you thought about an online gallery/cooperative like Northwest Fine Woodworking? I don't know if they are accepting members, but there are sure to be others - or maybe you (we) could get a group together to start a similar cooperative …


----------



## larrysch (May 30, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Dennis - Sorry that your sources are closing down - I am afraid that is going to happen more often than not. Its seems that we have become a throw away society - buy it - use it - and then throw it away. Very sad indeed. For our area - I see that the Dairy Industry is also going belly up around here. The paper stated that almost 80% of the dairy herds are going to be destroyed - that mean that most of the Hispanic work force will be out of work, all the folks that depend on the dairy industry will be hurting and that mean - it is going to effect all of us. I sure hope you find some more sources for the sales of your furniture and your projects.


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Who is John Galt????


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


it can only get worse before it gets better

which in the end

gets better

hang in there dude!!!!


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Your dilemma reminds me of something I read quite a few years ago.

This shoe manufacturer was bragging about how much money he was going to make,

because of getting his shoes made in China. He had closed all of his factories in the USA.

Someone asked him who was going to buy his shoes if nobody was working in the USA.

I think the people in the USA have had just about all they can take.


----------



## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


I'm sorry Dennis, you do make beautiful and unique furniture. I guess selling stuff on etsy and working for the man are your only options for the time being or coming up with a better mousetrap. You still have valuable talent I think you are going to find a way to make it. Just like guys like Mark D. You guys have too many personal skills to fold up and quit. I'm behind you all the way.m


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


It looks like the NW Fine Woodworkers is an excellent site to show your creations.


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## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


I am glad that you are getting your furniture back Dennis, but it is sad that another business is closing. At this rate, the only businesses that will be left open are the big box stores in each category. And since they work on the self help model, they will not employ that many people. What will the thousands of other people do? And like other have said, how will they buy what is being sold?

I would like to think eventually people will turn back to quality, but with the economic problems now I am afraid they will look even harder for those "bargains". At what point does price no longer become the deciding factor? I am not sure we are there yet. Most of the retailers have been reporting declines, except for Walmart. Time will only tell.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


It is a sad commentary that a great number of people no longer want a better mousetrap, or a prettier mousetrap. All that they want is a cheaper mousetrap. Quality is a buzz-word that adverisers use to make people feel better about their purchase.

Ford used to use the slogan, "Quality is Job #1" and I doubt many believed them, knowing that quality was actually job #7 or 8 … and sometimes didn't even make it on the list.

It's difficult to teach quality to people because it's an acquired taste and requires patience and understanding. Classical music really is better than poplar music, but you need to know what to look for to appreciate it, and that takes knowledge. Too many folks don't have time for that anymore so they just want stuff.

Dennis, there is a definite loss to society in general when quality and beauty become rare. At times it can be downright depressing.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


I wonder how badly affected the rich people are. It seems that the working classes cannot and have never been able to afford to buy hand made bespoke quality furniture.The rich will always be able to do so without blinking. However the vast majority of people in the middle who are neither rich nor poor, like us for example are dfinitely putting buying quality stuff of for a while . I see it here in the uk. Hand made furniture has been a luxury long before this cash crisis and still quality hand made furniture was always seen by the masses as a rip off sometimes uneducated cries and phrases like " what a thousand pounds why I could get ten in Ikea for that" .The good craftsmen sigh and say yes but how long will they be around will they become heirloom pieces to be used with pride in three or four hundred years. I have never been able to understand this people do get ripped off and they have always been wary but they were beginning to realise that waiting saving for a good piece was always best. I say you were lucky also to get your stuff back I know people who have lost big time sorry for rant good luck Alistair


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


The problem I see is the march towards subsistence level wages and the end of the middle class. You notice in teh economic recovery talk out of DC, there is not talk about CEO's making multi-million dollar salaries, but here is a lot of talk about the UAW giving , giving, giving, to match the work for less states in the south where Honda and Toyota located. Health care and pensions cost money. If you're struggling to find food, who's looking for hand made furniture? There aren't enough rich out there to support the economy.


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## mtkate (Apr 18, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Back to Debbie's "how do you educate" comment. This web site is a fantastic educator. To appreciate the value of fine craftmanship (or craftswomanship) there is nothing like trying it out yourself and screwing it up.

There will always be a market for high end items (so they say) - and you need to find ways to make sure your products become seen. Get them in an online gallery. If I had disposable cash, I would have bought several items from Darrell Peart whose work I had never seen before starting to visit Lumberjocks.


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## stratiA (Feb 26, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


Wow this blog has brought out a wave of emotions. Sadness, frustration and all out anger in others. Mostly it seems focused upon our sad state of the economy. I have not been spared as well. I have worked in the food industry all my life. I have owned a small business myself. In 2003 at the end of the internet boom, I purchased a restaurant. I overpaid at the time thinking I had enough saved up to survive any bump. What I got was this economy and my descent into near bankruptcy. Even though I have a fairly strong resume, I haven't found a decent job in three years. I have channeled my depression into working wood. I am still very new and have little disposable income to put into it. I view it more as a creative outlet. My wife however thinks I have potential. She has encouraged me to build more and possibly make a few bucks. I feel continual frustration in explaining to her that in this economy its not likely with price of wood etc that its worthwhile. Who can afford anything anymore.
sorry for my long drawn out post. It feels good to vent. 
And Dennis I will pass along the *only* advice I have received. Keep plugging away.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Another gallery done gone*
> 
> Tomorrow I set out to pick up my furniture from another store that has closed up. In the ten years I've been building furniture I've had my furniture in four different galleries. All of which have shut their doors. One of them more than once. This one lasted a year. The hard part is knowing how much heart the owners of these stores have invested. Let alone money and time. I see this and I know the American dream has died. What is the average? One out of ten small businesses survive? How old is that statistic? I think of all the construction companies I've worked for that have gone belly up. One out of ten would be generous. What I find interesting is every time this subject comes up it is assumed something was wrong with the business owners. Not with the system. These where good hard working Americans. "let them sell prefab crap at Target" Is that what we have become? I've been working on a large medical building with around 300+ cabinets in it. They who charge $10,000.00 a day, opted for the $1.50 non brand hinges from Taiwan as opposed to the $3.00 known brand. A savings of $450.00. I expect the hinges to fail within five years. Did I say the hinge plates got back ordered and the only place they have them is Taiwan. Capitalism based on low bid will fail. The American dream is already just that…only a dream.


mtkate's statement makes my point about where we have descended into since the 80's. No disposable income. This modern society was built on good paying manufacturing jobs with a disposable income, not service industry, minimum wage jobs without any benefits. I have been wondering how long this could last for the last 20 yrs, Now we know. They say unemployment is under 10%, but they don't count the under-employed working for peanuts while looking for work, those whose unemployment benes have run out, or the over 50 gang who are screwed if they loose their job after 50 or 55. I've only known 1 who ever returned to the work force at his former capacity


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Hanging it up*

Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


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## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


dennis…I am sorry…you are an amazing craftsman and I love your work…I KNOW things would be different if the economy had any improvement…but I know you cant make a decision like this without lots of thought…

keep us posted…what are the next steps?


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


I hate to hear this Dennis. Maybe taking shelter with a job "workin' for the man" for the short term is a good idea in economic times like these. I hope you don't have to sell off equipment and such. Your work is certainly not too weird - it's beautiful, unique and well-crafted. I have always hoped that you would find your patron.


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## darryl (Jul 22, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


I'm sorry to hear that you feel it's come to this.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


You have tremendous package of talent.

link that might spark an idea for you

http://lumberjocks.com/DanWalters/blog/1432

http://lumberjocks.com/DanWalters/blog/2339









have you tried making a music stand and selling on ebay ? if you could use up your shorts and sell one a week on ebay, it might pay a few bills…. I think there is a market for high end music stands on ebay … send me pm if you want to duscuss


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## Julian (Sep 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Sory to hear it, but I feel for you. You're not the only one in the boat.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Hate to hear it Dennis. Your work is always so good. Hope something works out in your favor.


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## mtnwild (Sep 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


That's unfortunate. I've known three incredible wood craftsmen that had plenty of ups and downs. It's a hard business to stay consistent with well paying clients.

You never fail until you give up.

Best of luck…...............


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dude -


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


pm me

maybe i can help you?


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis - I hate to hear this. You do beautiful work.


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis, sorry to hear about this but keep up your spirit. You have lots of talent and lots of us are going through hards times. It bound to change sooner than later I hope.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis: My prayers are with you. I know you are working on some cabinets with some junk hardware. I hope that it keeps you busy until people start knocking you door down for your skills and workmanship.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


i visited your website and really like your sofa table and lodge furniture. in todays global economy there is always a market. the problem is finding it, at the right time and place. wish i had some advise that would help you. as a side note i watched a couple of youtube videos of Spirit Williams, a lady wood carver. she mentioned she is still making a living doing relief wood carving. i wondered just what kind of living she was making. at the end of one of her videos she said she kept track of her time doing about half administrative work to run a business and the rest actually hands on carving. she said it came out to about $10/hour with no benefits. but she said she was very happy and quite content. man, for the quality work she displayed, i was floored.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


For me wood working is nothing more then a glorious hobby. I have always been afraid to make it on my own and admire anyone who is brave enough to try. Wish I had an answer…. I can only offer my sincere encouragement to hold to your craft, keep your chin up, make some thoughtful adjustments and go with the flow.
...


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## kolwdwrkr (Jul 27, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Custom woodworking is a tough business and a lot of people are shutting their doors. It's been said, you are definitely not alone. I shut down quite some time ago and have been looking for work since. I've got nothing, and have been very worried. I've decided to take a stand. I don't deserve to fail. I lost my home, wife, etc. I won't put up with losing my business. So I'm taking a stand and am struggling to get back into it. Giving a few bids here and there, planning on doing the work from my garage. It's tough, but I'm sick of waiting for someone to pick me up and carry me. I've done it on my own since I started working 16 years ago (I'm only 30 and have been through the ringer). You need to take a stand too. Forget the galleries. They take your hard earned money anyway. Hit the streets, post ads in towns that you know will accept your work, hunker down and make yourself known. Use lumberjocks and other sites to network. You can make a come back.

You will never get rich or have a lot of money in this business, especially with custom unless you invent something, become production based, etc. Like I said, woodworking is a difficult business to make a living. But you are making a living doing what you love. And if it's not working out, change careers. But don't lose it as a hobby.

Good luck to you, and to everyone in this situation.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


your work isn't "too weird"-it is STUNNING and continues to be "my favourite".

I, too, wish I had the answer for you re: how to make it a viable business. As said before, I think that the market for your work is there, it's just finding it. In the meantime, well, I guess that is where you stand right now. There are still bills to be paid.

Whatever direction your path takes you at this point I hope that your artistry remains part of your life. You have been given a gift and you owe it to yourself and the world to use it.

Continued best wishes.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Ouch. I can understand your disappointment and the thought of putting things away, if only for a while. It's difficult to put yourself into something and walk away empty. Yet, based on the work you posted here and your site, it is who you are and I firmly believe you'll continue to do it in one way or another. Like many here, I would gladly help if I could, but as a hobbyist, I don't know anything. Hopefully, when you've worked through this, you'll find the outlet you need for your work.


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis, this makes me very sad. I had great hopes that you could carry on. there is nothing wrong in your work. Your skills are some of the best. I think I understand .


----------



## BIGSKY (Jan 23, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


SORRY TO HEAR YOU ARE GIVING IT UP. BUT WITH THE INTERNET NOWDAYS I THINK WITH RIGHT MARKETING YOU MAY MAKE MONEY. LIKE DAN SAYS TURN TO EBAY AND OTHER SITES. THERE ALWAYS A MARKET FOR CUSTOM WORK. PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS LIKE YOUR WORK.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


dennis : in 45 years , i have given up all hope 3 times , and decided to do something else .
but what ?
the only thing i know is building ! 
once i decided to become a computer repair man ,since i speak spanish , i figured that i could work the latin american circuit . you know , sit by the pool in some fancy hotel and wait for part #rj 527549 and hang out with the secratary's that needed me to fix their computers . then take out my screwdriver and replace the part and move on to new lady's in computer trouble , all at some corporations expence !
well i called ibm , and found out that they wanted me to go to their school , from 9 to 5 , 5 days a week ,for 3 years,
at a cost to me of $ 8,000.00 a year !
so i sucked it up and went down the street and got a job framing houses for $ 10.00 an hour . at least i was eating !

your talent is a gift from God , it's not a job , it is your lifes work !

i feel that if i don't use it , then He might give it to someone else .

i have never sold 1 single thing in my carrer(?) in the gallery circuit, and have had honorary shows at 
bank of america world headquarters , and the california redwood association , and many others .
i have also been featured in Design magazine and restaurant trade mags. and in the sanfrancisco newspaper,
and t.v. . all to no avail .

ours is a tough calling , but you got to soldier on , for your own good !

i have made maybe 500 art boxes in my time , and sold maybe 25 of them !
the rest i give away so that i can be free to make new and better ones , if i shut off the tap , the water stops !

sell shoes in the mall , if you have to , but keep your gift alive .
things will turn again , and you will be redemed (?) !

we all feel your pain and confusion , and togethere , WE at least CARE , and so do YOU !


----------



## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Never let go of a dream…


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## JimF (May 20, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


"Tough times never last, but tough people do." Robert H Schuller

See if you can find this book. About 20 years ago my wife bought it to help me through some rough spots. It helped me a lot. Change what you must, but don't give up.


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## Mx329 (Feb 19, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Sorry to hear that boss. But don't just give up like that. Like Kindlingmaker said, never let go of a dream. Your talent is a gift from God. Use it and explore and push your limits.


----------



## Max (Sep 13, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis,

Your designs and furniture do have a market I am sure of it. Have you tried any places in Jackson Hole Wyo.? If not placing your items somewhere over there maybe some sort of fliers. There is a great deal of money in that market and your style I would think would do well. Also another thought, Candy Hicks does the juniper tables and lamps might be a source of information for you to tap into for any suggestions. They seem to be doing OK with there ventures and I am sure would share any ideas they may have. We all must make decisions sometimes based on necessity but don't let your gift of woodworking go unused.


----------



## Max (Sep 13, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Are you still going to do Kitchen cabinets?


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Thanks everyone. No the dream won't die. I'll die wanting and trying to do something creative. Yes I have tried Jackson Hole and Sun Valley….and the internet…and the art shows.
Something I heard that stuck with me is creation comes out of destruction. Maybe I'll go back to painting wildlife.


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Yes ! use your art skills … life is a game. Roll a Yatzee !!!


----------



## jhatcher (Jun 12, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


"Maybe I'll go back to painting wildlife." I could never get the deer to hold still while I pour paint on 'em

Sorry to hear about you situation, I know I have "Closed Shop" many times, then I get that "itch" and just can't stay out of the shop. I think you will try again. We all do.

Jeremy


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Jeremy…you really need to try the new paint ball guns. They work pretty good, unless you want to paint fish. Then you have to catch em!


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


I like the way you think dennis. 
...


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma, & we wish you all of the success in whatever you decide to do.

I was thinking this morning, after looking at your website, that maybe you could try selling

unassembled log furniture. You could put your Logman tenon maker to work for you.

I think a lot of people would like to tell their friends that they built the chair, or whatever,

they assembled that they did it themselves.

It would be much easier to ship the parts, than the whole chair.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


That is an idea, Dick. The sad part is I could charge just as much as I do for a finished piece!


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


There are places online charging as much unfinished log furniture as I do for finished log furniture….go figure.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis,
Some people will pay more for something they say they built it themselves, even if they didn't.


----------



## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Dennis I really hate hearing this news!I was looking forward to seeing you at the Western Design.I definitly would not call your work wierd I think you have a great style.I have almost given up on many occasions but stuck thru and at this point glad I hung in there but,only you can make that choice.I wish you the best but hope you will reconsider it would be a shame to lose your talent in the woodworking community


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Ya Scott I was really looking forward to meeting you there. The designers at the show have just not been interested in my brand of rustic. One ray of hope would have kept me going, but I'm just not seeing it. Your work should do well. I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Did you find your paint brushes ?


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Hanging it up*
> 
> Ya I've done had it. Guess I'll see if Thos will give me a job herding tourist. Today I turned down a chance to do the Western Design Conference. After doing shows, galleries, etsy and a web site with very little luck I'm plum out of energy. (and money) When I started I knew of 12 different galleries that had regional furniture. Now I only know 3. Two are owned by furniture builders and the other one won't even return my calls. I can't even blame it on the economy. I think it is more a change in taste and how people shop. Then again my furniture could just be too weird! This has been something I've been trying on and off for 15 years now. My heart is heavy.


Brushes I could find. Tubes of paint require a trip into the big city.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*

Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.

I haven't grumbled for a long time, because this economy thing hit me square in the gut. One of the few Americans who avoided a mortgage and credit cards it just felt like I was paying for your mistakes. I knew the nature of construction when I started decades ago. I thought I was prepared. It is amazing how fast all my savings dried up when there was absolutely no work. Now things seem to be picking up.

Actually I'm pretty jazzed about this kitchen. A true custom job. Inset doors, soft close under mount slides, actual panels on the side walls instead of 1/4 inch skins. I'd forgotten how much fun cabinets could be.

So enjoy your turkeys all you nine to fivers. I'll be stuck in the shop. Happy ThanksGrumbling!


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


well done … gotta make money to keep after the bills,... Happy Holidays


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


You go dude. Optimism compounds like interest.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


isn't life fascinating. You just wanted to build custom, build quality-and here you are doing just that!!! Life is good!! 

Congratulations.


----------



## matt1970 (Mar 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Wow…that is SERIOUSLY the best part of my Thanksgiving day…seeing this post…you truly deserve to grumble once in a while but it is soooo nice to hear you with some good news…I hope this job leads to another and another and just keep them rolling along…

Happy Thanksgiving my friend!


----------



## jbertelson (Sep 26, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Best grumble I have heard all day….....thanks for the grumble (-:

I'll go to bed feeling good…......


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Always interesting to get your perspective on things. And, it's always appreciated. Happy Thanksgiving Dennis, whenever you get to celebrate it.


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Nice to see you working and grumbling Dennis. Happy Holidays.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


*We're happy for you Dennis.

We're a day late, but "HAPPY BLACK FRIDAY".*


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Another day above sod is a good day. Pleased to hear that your stop-gap gig has it's pleasant aspects. High-five, Brother.


----------



## gagewestern (Mar 24, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


your right working on holidays isnt to bad if its for your self good luck with the job


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Way to go Buddy. I'm sooo happy for you. It's just good hearing from you, but getting good news is way cool. Happy Holidays to you and the Sig. Other. Mike


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


working is good ,

being happy is priceless !

glad you are getting some of both .


----------



## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear things are picking up.


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Dennis Congratulations on the work. I hope that your recovery deepens and that work will continuously be found.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Way to go Dennis glad your on the up swing again


----------



## OhValleyWoodandWool (Nov 9, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Happy ThanksGrumblings Day!*
> 
> Ya I had to work today! Finely got a job and the contractor screws me on the schedule. But damn it was nice to play behind the saw. Grumbling done right has to start with the knowledge that I've got it made. One of the few independent Americans left. I get to do what my skills and talent direct me towards rather than deal with the legal/corporate/bureaucratic, anything for the mighty dollar, world of business the rest of America gets to suffer with. I sometimes grumble about how many people have lost their farms and businesses. Their independence. Their chunk of the true American dream. Which isn't money Damn It! It is the right to work for yourself, or to work with dignity. To be a craftsman and not just another body on the job.
> 
> ...


Yup - you're living the dream and I'm jealous. Keep it up for the rest of us poor corporate slobs!!!!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Louis L'Amour*

"There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker. 
Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


dennis i certainly agree with what your saying…after time..the tools just fit..and we know how they work without trying to figure them out…and then there is the wood…......to me …wood was and is a living thing..and i know when i work the wood…....i can feel a connection that is just there…....well what you said are good words..and good thoughts…......grizzman


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


my favourite author!

it is like a photographer-it doesn't matter what type of camera a photographer artist has in his/her hands - beautiful creations will take place. "It" is that something that cannot be taught, it can only be felt.

Thank you for words of wisdom Dennis.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


You hit it on the head buddy. I realized that, trying to teach turning to Dave and Rick. I thought, "I can't teach these guys how to hold a chisel or avoid a snag, or when to stop turning because the wood is too hot and starts cracking. Endless hours of things I've learned on my own through years of turning on my own, with questions to guys like you, Karson, Dick Cain, Mark DeCou, Frank, Aussie Don. Guys that have done these things for years and know the character of wood and the stresses you can and can't put on them. I never had a private teacher, but I did have a wealth of knowledge I could turn to in a second and get a right answer. That's how I learned to woodwork and turn. With help from you Old Farts, and I say that with the kindest and gentleness of meaning. I thank all off you from my soul, mike


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


*AHH!! *

*The Love of Natures Wood.* What else can anyone say.


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## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


well written. I didn't know that Louis was a woodworker. Fun to learn that.

You wrote this just in time to stress me out completely while preparing for my casket building class I'll teach in 2011, more currenlty with scrimshaw art class I'm leading in just three weeks. Thanks so much!

I'm working with a teen now building an electric guitar together, usually one evening a week. It takes so long for him to do what comes natural and quickly for me, both in the thought process, and in the action. He asks a simple question, and my mind races through years of practicing and mistakes in a few seconds as I make a decision about what tool to use, and how to do something he wants to try. Without that huge head-computer file of information, I can't do it quickly.

I've read a lot in magazines and books, have about 20 feet of shelves full, but I can't remember much of what I've read. But, I do remember most of what I've done, at least at this point in my life. I'm already to the point though, that I go through my computer files of photos, and I discover things I've built that I had forgotten about. It's sort of scary, and fun at the same time.

This teen is a talented guy, and will make a great artisan some day if he sticks with it and endures the long hours of sitting on a stool making mistakes, and cutting his skin, and learning from it all. I can't teach him those things, only can help guide him in principles.

For instance, he will get a great idea of what he wants to do, and then when I explain what it will take to accomplish it, he can easily talk himself out of the effort. So, principally, I tell him to do what he wants to do, and not worry about the effort, the material cost, or what he must practice on before he does it. Not to shirk back from fear or intimidation. He won't improve by doing what he can currently do.

I can give him that guidance, but the shop-stool hours, he'll have to put in himself over his lifetime. He'll have to learn on his own the type of things you can't read about in a magazine article or book.

And, I enjoy listening to him play riffs on his guitar, and hearing him talk about the wide open horizon that is his bright future. I've enjoyed the time together so much, that during his Spring Break he didn't have time to come down to my shop, so I had to write him and ask if he'd forgotten about me.

I need what he has, and he wants what I can teach. If I had to do it all over again, I'd switch places with him, and start all over. But, I wouldn't want to take that from him. I've enjoyed working with him, and being energized with youth and vision.

I taught him knife making a couple of years back, and I'm sure he's sold more knives than I have since. Gotta love how God does things.

Good to hear from you again Dennis,
m


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


one of the things i teach my students ,
you don't really know your work ,
until your hands know it .
your mind and your heart can understand it ,
in many different ways ,
but until your hands have it ,
it is all just theory and experimenting .

another thing i do ,
is to ' clean ' my hands in sawdust ,
before i start to work .
this puts me in the same frame as the wood ,
and keeps me from just powering over it ,
and doing it ' my way ' .
( it also keeps my paw prints off of the work ,
so i don't have to sand off the grease later ) .

thanks for the post , Dennis ,
i didn't know that about L'Amour either .

nice .


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


Louis could "SEE". I have been able to teach students to "DO" but I cannot teach them to "SEE". I also cannot teach them to "Feel". I don't like to teach anymore. It takes too long to remember where it all began.


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## Bearpie (Feb 19, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Louis L'Amour*
> 
> "There is a knowledge in the muscles of a workman that goes beyond the mind, a skill that lies in the flesh and the fiber, and my hands and my heart held a love of the wood…" Louis L'Amour. Words of a great wordworker.
> Trying to teach woodworking to a beginner really brings this home. No matter how smart, or talented, it just takes time to learn how to hold a chisel, or run a belt sander. This is something no hobbyist can know. He might build to a higher standard (and they often do) but a professional has to work with out thought. Intuitive woodworking….


Louis L'Amour was a man of many talents, skills and had a very great knowledge of many many different things. He has experienced all that he has written about which is why he wrote so well and with so much feeling. I really miss him and his works although I have never met him he is my friend and I knew him well and loved him too. His books are worth reading and you have to listen for the wisdom in his books. There are bits and pieces of them in every book. If you just read them you are missing a lot so you have to think as you read. There are a few of his books that I read once a year and I am amazed that each time I reread his books I find something new that I seem to have missed the previous times I read them.

Erwin Jacksonville, Fl


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Buy American?*

Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


If Americans would *make* and *buy* quality then…


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## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


Hang in there buddy. I was mowing this afternoon, and thought, "I haven't talked with Dennis for awhile, I wonder how he's doing….?"

m


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## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


I try to buy American when I can,but sometimes you haven't a choice,my wife gets made when we're in the store and I pick something up and say out loud cheap foreign s##t.Then she'll walk away and pretend she doesn't know me.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


I'm with you, Dennis. I think some people believe that "buy American" means where they buy it, instead of where it was made. People complain about lousy quality and then buy replacement items of the same quality because it's the lowest price.

And I get so mad when I see furniture made out of MDF with kraft paper veneer and a label that says "solid wood". You can't compete with that.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


I don't have a popular opinion on this, but i do believe in being as "green" as one can (which is thankfully avoiding being marginalized as a catch phrase) ... the "Green" and "buy American" seem to overlap a lot, and the problems of both are similar. It is hard to get local resources, when the locals either can't afford, don't know how to make, or have no interest in producing local resources.

We are just coming out of three decades of corporation focus.. where we can earn more than we work for.. and given our economic state.. more than they far deserve. Avoiding politics… and heading to psych… a lot of people want to be millionaires. We are so blessed in this country, we can do and be most anything, we have abundant resources. What we need are more people waking up that we can make our local Made in America ideologue a reality again.. just not based on greed and gluttony and laziness. And then there is getting people out there to love what we .. us woodworkers… carvers…artisans… trades people…what we love and respect.. and work hard for.. as quality.

I live in a city, but travel to the country to get resources… so I worry and think a out this a lot.. including using felled city trees and recycled furniture parts. And I thank goodness that we are understanding the damage of plastic i the world… So there's my bit… sorry for the rant.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


Yes green and buy American are very much intertwined. China doesn't have a very good environmental reputation. Not the best at human rights either.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


Lots of people in this and foreign countries buy American; businesses, banks, politicians - to name a few.


----------



## rdlaurance (Mar 28, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


Dennis, as one of your (now) foreign LJ buddies, I agree 100% in the buy local concept and as EPJ so succinctly stated 'being green'. A case in point here in Sweden…

....with this trivia question…. What is the single most largest export of this nordic country? (answer below). If you answered SAAB cars or the _SAAB Gripen jetfighter… you would be mistaken. ABBA? No they're pretty much retired and passé. IKEA? ha ha …NOT! That company's name is almost synonymous for third-world labor. How about our (Sweden's) beloved Husqvarna lawnmowers? Sadly, they are made in America (where (here) it is considered… 'quality labor is cheap'). Though I own one of these quality lawn tractors (thank you folks in N.Carolina), I say sadly because if the workers that made them were paid our labor scale the American workers would be doing much better economically. And sadly because those could have been good paying jobs given to Swedish people. And also sadly in that the petrochemicals used in transporting all the products back and forth across the expanse of the globe (in search of the cheapest labor/materials-yielding greater corporate profits) has literally made us all even more reliant on this petrochemical industry to sustain our lives. And now that we are on the down-sloping side of the petroleum 'bell-curve', a greater addiction to the commodity is what we (individually) should be trying to curb and break. It only means the ultimate survival of the species. So far the dinosaurs and cockroaches have proven to be a more successful group of all the earths inhabitants. Do we have a chance?

My personal feeling is that now is the time that education systems need to begin teaching these and the next generations where food comes from and how to grow it. Why are there so many millions unemployed with no jobs in sight? Technology's natural consequences are to save labor (highest expense of production) so inevitably as we progress, jobs of production become even less in demand. Add to that a burgeoning world population and the problem is compounded exponentially. And the bottom line is that all these people still need to eat. If we took a turn back to the pre-industrial revolution, broke up some of the expansive corporate farms and portions of the population returned to and started to 'work the land' again with greater techno/biological methods, being paid for what the value of their labors are truly worth, many wrongs in this modern era world would begin to diminish. Sure, reverting back to this may be intwined with a multitude of problems, but are the multi-millions of hungry (and starving) unemployed people not a problem also? There will always be problems…. and solutions come in many guises.

If you guessed that Sweden's number one export is BANANAS, you would be correct. Go Figure! Gothenberg, Sweden is where all the bananas are received (from the tropics) and most are then sold and transported on to all the other Nordic (3) and Baltic countries (7). Consider this… how 'green' is the marketing of green bananas to the top of the world? And the biggest laugh I get in the stores is seeing special 'ecological' bananas for sale! Too bad one cannot taste all the petroleum that they are laced with just to get here…. lol

I inevitably walk on by and purchase the locally grown/harvested apples at the roadside stand on my way home, leastwise until my new planted apple trees are producing greater quantities.

Just my thoughts, just saying!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


A few companies seem to be weathering the storm and still produce decent quality tools.
Feel free to add more.

Barr Specialty Tools
Bridge City Tool Works
Incra Precision Tools
Lie Nielsen Toolworks USA
Lumber Jack Tools
Noden Adjust-A-Bench
Shopsmith
U.J. Ramelson Co. Inc
Woodpecker Woodworking Precision Tools
Woodworkers Tool Works


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Buy American?*
> 
> Just got another buy American (insert Local for my foreign buddies) Email from someone I know who just buys the cheapest crap. I figure if half the folks who believe in "Buy American", bought American, one quarter of the time, and an eighth of the time it was of decent quality, woodworking would pay a good wage and I'd have a real job!


Bananas! I'm hoping my new apple trees survive their first winter. Good luck Rick.

Gene, The key work is "few".


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Politics Religion and Woodworking*

We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.

I guess politics and woodworking has such a special meaning to me because I made my living in my shop. It is one of the few professions left that an individual could make a living at. I see my profession dying and I'm to keep mum because we can't have a civil discourse. A sorry state of affairs. If we just deal with the mechanics we trivialize our craft.

Maybe if we are really good…someday…woodworking will draw us closer together. After all I've yet to hear about a galoot strapping a bomb around his waist and blowing up a HomeDespot just cause they sell power tools.

Now I'll go read the posting rules….


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## JohnnyW (Feb 7, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


....and even if a galoot was planning to blow up Home Depot, he might change his mind if he could vent his frustration on here and learn something about the opposite viewpoint at the same time…..

Grumble On!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


and now if we could just learn how to have discussions and debate without personal attacks on our fellow members.

There is a Native story that tells of people sitting around a fire. To get the full picture of what the fire looks like we have to gather everyone's perspective and add it to our own. From our own experience we only get a sliver of the truth.


----------



## schloemoe (May 10, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I'm not afraid to talk about God or Politics take you'r pick just don't try to make me think that they are the same thing. A lot of politcal people would have you beleive they are God. I do think of wood working as a kind of spiritual thing or maybe a better term is therapy.I can lock myself in my shop and it's just me and the wood I know that sounds really simplestic but thats the way it works for me. After about an hour of refining and shaping wood into something beautiful I see things in different light .[for a short time anyway]


----------



## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I feel like the last buggy-whip maker down the street from the Model-T factory thinking, "This new car fad, will surely die out and people will be back to buying my whips…..."

Being the "Last Man Standing" is not a bad marketing strategy though, if a guy can hang on that long.

Hang in there Dennis,
m


----------



## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I do remember those early days of Lumberjocks, the God and Politics and Woodworking stuff, and I remember spending a lot more time writing back then. Of course, it seemed like we all mostly agreed with each other then, or at least we were all respectful of each other.

Something changed as the group started to grow from a few handfuls of people to a bigger audience. It was bound to happen, but I do miss the early days.

Thanks for the flash back down memory lane,
m


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts, Dennis.

I agree with you that woodworking is (or at least can be) a spiritual experience. It's too bad that so many people don't understand the difference between religion and spirituality. I find it fascinating to listen to other people talk about how they relate to the God of their understanding, or at least about how they view their own place in the pecking order of the universe. Even atheists can be spiritual (but you knew that).

I wonder why such an important topic can't be discussed without it always degenerating into name-calling and acrimony? Well, I guess if I had the answer to that one, there would be no more wars or terrorists in the world.


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I had a spritual experience a few weeks back by dropping a very heavy corner of a cabinet directly onto the cuticle of my big toe which sent an instant feeling of being in the pit of hell itself. Two hours later I drilled a hole through the nail and it instantly felt like I was in pergatory.


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


There is a bit of irony in politicians almost single handedly decimating the industry we all talk about and love, but it would be too impolite and divisive to talk about them. And if they made the felling of trees illegal in the states tomorrow, we'd all be presenting sketchup drawings of what we'd like to build if we were given permission by our masters, but to one day only own a tree.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Not everyone is interested in celebrating diversity and the knowledge and wisdom it brings. I enjoy talking about almost anything, but somehow there are always the people that can't understand most people mean well and only few are bad tempered. Those "few" are the balance nature needs to keep the rest of us on the right track of open mindedness and progressive thought for a better future. I have found the golden rule can only be a personal morality, few people treat others the way they would like to be treated.. even fewer know what that truly means. No one can be forced into enlightenment, but so many people believe they can bash what they do not agree with as if that EVER changes a persons mind. The difficulty really is about disparity in experience, knowledge, and intelligence. We are taught to fear mistakes, fear ignorance, and fear change… without community reflection, self awareness, and empathy no one can grow or adapt. The inability to change is death… and for anyone who understands art and craft.. the beginning of creation starts with an act of destruction. It means more than the words.. it is the antithesis of conservative and traditional thought. OOops …. politics. That is why people fight.. they want to ignore change.. ignore differences, because they do not want them… and when confronted with aggression.. we all fall back into our animalistic defenses.

Woodworking is VERY spiritual for me.. but already I have been received with "I don't remember your religious affiliation being asked for your profile." So I am a Druid.. I truly enjoy nature and find peace and wisdom in it.. but that is enough to bring on the anger.. even here on LJs.. even though it is the REASON I do woodworking and BASIS of passion I bring to my knowledge and experience. "It is the sign of intelligence to entertain an idea or concept without taking it personal" ~ Socrates.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Dennis:
I don't think people join LJs to vent their personal religious or political preferences, it's their interest in woodworking.
Religion is a deeply personal thing of which there are many different organized versions. Unfortunately religious discussions often turn to bitter crusades against rival beliefs and religions. I like to "see" all religions as a path to the creator, each has its own rules of membership and beliefs. Look at it as wood, not just one species, but many different species from all over the world with each its own color/grain.
In many ways politics share the very same organized problems that religion has. Party line "parrot" uttering and bashing people with other views just identifies some as mindless sheep. Personally I prefer to make up my own mind and not join any organized "club", after all, my vote is personal and private. 
There are things where politics, in my opinion, defy the electorate's wishes and through threats and personal "gifts" don't represent the people anymore.
Case in point: Healthcare; The majority voted for Universal Healthcare, but when persued for implimenting, was hit by polititions undermining the people's vote. Fingers were pointed to other systems used in countries of the civilized world, some not so good, some good and some excellent. There is no record of citizens of foreign health care services chomping at the bit to change to the US system - anyone know why? US politics has checks and ballances in place, but someone needs to tell them it is NOT Cheques and Ballances at a Bank.

I am not against anyone speaking about religion or politics in a posting, but be careful, religion and politics have been the many causes of wars.
Ljs is for a spritual connection via the material we have chosen as our passion and we try to inject this in everything we make.

Sorry about the HC issue,it is very dear to my heart.

Now go and have a nice day.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


EPJartisan,
Cool man, rock on.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


yes if it wasn't for health insurance my life would be much much better. Right now it is the single largest payment out of our household.. above the cars and the house combined. The health care industry is raping us! I could afford to hire actual full-time people in my shop and if we had universal healthcare. I'd rather my money go to someplace I can vote for or against, than some greedy guy who suddenly won't cover me because he looses profit. We lost control of our government because of greedy monopolies.

Also I'd say wars are really about fear and greed, basic human animal emotions and instincts. War must omit logic and reason.. all is fair in love and war. Hmm also … an addendum to my earlier post.. Socrates was put to death for his philosophy.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


EPJartisan, so why not have universal woodwork? Some people can't afford nice woodwork because you take home evil profits every week. Stop the gouging and profiteering that keeps nice woodwork out of the reach of so many deserving folks


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Dennis
You have been here much longer than myself and I feel your pain. I'm a firm believer in God and have my own political beliefs, even though I've been here half the time you have , I have seen some of the nastiest ,full blown hateful drag out post regarding both subjects. Although we live in a free society there are a few members here who will berate and belittle others for there religious and political beliefs . These kind of post have caused many to leave LJs and have caused long term discord. So even though I hold fast to my God and still practice my own political views I feel it's much better to stick to woodworking and keep our LJ community a kinder happier neighborhood.


----------



## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


miles125, 
I don't really understand your meaning. I don't take profit.. unless you mean this in a general "you." I work a second job to pay bills. The studio runs itself.. most of the time. But I agree quality woodwork should be affordable by most people… I would still prefer teaching others to make their own quality woodwork rather than purchasing it. THAT is universal woodwork… love of the process not the material item.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


A1Jim,
I know what you are saying. Good post Jim.
Everyone should know I'm part of the kinda kinder LJ community and definatly a paid up member of the happier neighborhood.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I'm a "big picture" kind of guy. I like to step back and look at the bottom line. And the bottom line as I see it is that we all just want to be happy.

Everybody has their own ideas about how to achieve that goal. These ideas encompass a myriad of different religious and political viewpoints. But if we could always remember that we're all looking for the same result, maybe we could better tolerate the differences in our approaches to getting there.


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Charlie, but there is a bigger picture to your big picture. Namely, none of us have a right to be happy at the expense of future generations footing the bill.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


mmmmm Charlie, I think you'd make many happy if you were a "big pitcher guy".

PS: Charlie, that gift from your wonderful holiday has not arrived yet. Do you think you may have sent it to Grizz by mistake?


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Roger, I sent you a wonderful sample of Caribbean seawater, but it must have evaporated somewhere over Texas. 

Miles: I didn't say everybody's path to happiness was a good one. Some people want immediate self-gratification at the expense of others. But I've found out the hard way that it just doesn't work in the long run. As for the specific issue you are referring to, it's a perfect example of what I meant about different paths to the same goal. I think we would all like to see everyone have affordable health care. But when we start talking about why it got so expensive in the first place and how to fix the problem, people are* miles* apart (pun intended).


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


This type of issue became an issue when political parties started affiliating themselves with religious groups. It got us into either an accepting or defensive position regarding making religion part of the conversation when before that it was just another topic in the conversation. Some people feel that if you vote a certain way it's almost like voting on a religious preference. It shouldn't be that way.


----------



## DerekL (Aug 18, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Craftsman, it could equally be argued that it ran the other way as well - it all started when religious groups started affiliating themselves with political factions. And really, no matter which way you phrase it, it goes back over a thousand years. It isn't something new, though has gained more prominence in the US starting back in the 1960's.

Nor is the recent rise in evangelical behavior (where certain religions feel the need to constantly preach wherever they are) really new, it's a cycle the US seems to go through every fifty to eighty years.

But really, I think Roger has it right - folks are on LJ to talk about woodworking, not politics or religion. I keep my mention of my other hobbies to a minimum (that is when they impinge on my woodworking) for the same reason - those discussions simply don't belong here.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


As little as I know about woodworking (I'm here to learn !), I know even less about politics and religion.

So … even if it goes that way … I got nothin'


----------



## woodcrafter47 (Nov 24, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Religion and spirituality,and faith,I take FAITH .forsaking all I take HIM.,that's the difference of religion and spirituality . Lets make sawdust guys .


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hi dennis,
I'm going to address this to you though it's not personal just too many other people to specify. I agree with you that it should be possible to discuss anything including religion and politics and their relationship to woodworking. I've read all these posts and I'm struck by how many of us agree that we should all be free to advocate without creating adversarial exchanges. I'm also struck by the lack of awareness of intolerance shown by some of the posts. For example, anyone who wants "universal healthcare" is advocating intolerance to achieve the goal because there will always be some who don't want it. It's like saying I want "universal walnut". But we can't debate the pros and cons here even though next time someone has an accident in the shop, healthcare will be a big part of their life, and ours. I recommend that we all hesitate the next time we choose to advocate in public and ask ourselves "do I have a right to tell anyone else what they *must *do and if so, who gives me that right?"

Regards,


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hi Outputter,
I'm the one who favors Universal Healthcare. Other nations have it and ALSO a choice to have private health insurance if preferred. Why should Universal Healthcare in the US be confined to the Military, Politicians and Goverment Workers ONLY? Does it mean that Farmers, Factory Workers, Truck Drivers, Welders, Shopkeepers, Engineers etc etc etc are second class citizens and their productivity is irevolent for the US to sustain itself?
What happened to the notion of equality in the USA?
I can only relate to the millions of citizens who are bled dry or banrupted by horrendous medical bills that are nothing short of loan shark bills. These citizens and the others that just cannot afford to pay health insurance premiums suffer a great deal, some are finiancially ruined and some cannot get medical help.
This is only my opnion folks and I am not trying to make my opinion anything else than "something to think about" 
I'm retired, I get SS and medicare plus I have private insurance as well. This week I had a hormone capsule inserted in my arm, it is the size of a 3/8" long by 1/8" dia. No aneasthetic was used, just made a slit with a scalpel, pop the capsule in and put a small piece of tape over the cut, took all of 5 minutes. The cost was $16,000.00 !!!!! Yes it's covered by Medicare, but even so I think it was a ripoff.
I would like to see Univeral Healthcare as an Option and let those who don't want it to carry on as they are, after all Uiversal Healthcare was overwhelmingly requested by the electorate.

I do agree that there should be a section in LJs where people can talkabout anything under the sun as long as not overbearing, rude or insulting - act like Gentlemen!
What brings us all to this site is the material we work with and the products we use it for, and that is the main reason we are all here. All LJs are my "Buddies in Wood". I respect them all, even if I don't agree with them, but when it comes to woodworking, there are noo better guys to have around.

Regards to ALL


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I already told you why Roger. You have no right to decide what I, or anyone else has in the way of insurance for health or anything else. Do you? Is so, who gave you the right?

PS - I can relate to your health problems. My wife and I are frequent customers at our local hospital. ;-)


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Jim, my libertarian side agrees with you in principle…. no one should be forced to buy insurance if they don't want to. However, the only way to be consistent is to say that those who opt not to buy insurance should be left to die if they can't come up with the cash to pay for their own care. Realistically, that's just not going to happen.

What's been happening up till now is that the uninsured get expensive emergency treatment, and the rest of us end up paying the bill in the long run by way of higher health care costs and insurance premiums.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


...isn't this fun!


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


OutPutter,
I think you may have read my posting wrong, I don't make decisions for others, nor do I intend to, but I do have the right to voice my opinion (it's called free speech), by the authority of the US Constitution. I thought I had made that perfectly clear when I wrote the sentence: *"This is only my opnion folks and I am not trying to make my opinion anything else than "something to think about" *

Whatever anyone's opinion may be, I think most people understand that pricing in medicine is tantamount to fraud, where "running interference" entities look at it as a "cash cow". Charlie "I think" is right to bring up the notion that insureds have the misfortune to pay for uninsured's treatments.

I do wholeheartedly agree that nobody has the right to make decisions for anyone else, but does not mean you should be gagged from your own personal view on anything. That is why there is no "cast in stone" rule that in woodworking you should only use Oak and not any other wood. We all make an independent decisions to use wood other than Oak and what is affordable and available.
On LJs you can ask a for suggestions of woods to use, methods of fabricating and finishing. There will be different suggestions, you may use one or more or none of them and if you think of all the non wood postings on LJs the same way as the "Woodworking" posting you can find LJs who fit more closely to your world.
LJs is really just a big family talking "shop" and also chatting about all sort of things at the dinner table.

Anyway, yes Dennis it sort of fun, but where respect for fellow LJs exists.

May you day be splinter free and the sawdust pile up. ))


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


This is fun. I'm going to pretend we're still just discussing how we should be able to discuss politics instead of actually discussing politics untill someone gets us shut down. Hehehe.

Charlie - You, my friend, have not a principle if you make it of none effect the minute you see a problem. If you start forcing other people to do what you want for insurance money, you will end up doing it for any other reason and therefore you don't really believe you don't have the right to do it. Now do you? Or don't you?

Roger - My fault for not being clear enough. I was accusing (in the best sense - not to cause hard feelings) you of being intolerant because you are for "UNIVERSAL" health care. Universal means everyone gets covered. The only way to cover everyone is to force them. Forcing them is the same as saying "I have the right to make other people do what I want". What gives you this right? (That's what I asked you. Not, who gives you the right to voice your opinion. I concede you have the right to voice your opinion else I would be a hypocrite.)

Now, since I've addressed Charlie and Roger about the right to "force" insurance on others, I will go a little further and tell them the real solution to rising health care costs. First let's be clear. The cost of insurance for health care is not a problem unless the underlying cost of health care is rising. Therefore, I'm only talking about health care, not the insurance.

The first thing wrong with health care costs is the same thing Charlie complained about in a sense. When you go the hospital, the cost of a room is basically set by insurance companies and the government (through Medi***). Since those costs are artificially low, the hospital will charge more for the aspirin, $8 a pill last I checked. It doesn't stop there. When Roger had a simple surgery to insert a dowel into his arm, that cost is influenced by a lot of things that have nothing to do with the cost to the doctor or hospital. So, to get a fair cost for the things you "buy" at the hospital, you have to get rid of insurance and government interference. As soon as people have to fork over $8 for an aspirin, the cost of the aspirin will go down, trust me. That doesn't mean other costs won't rise to their natural level because they will. But, the outcome will be that absent interference, prices will be forced to be competitive and therefore rational.

But, how does that bring down the cost of health care? Well, first off, nobody has to pay for everybody that works in the insurance industry, no salary, no profits, no nothing. Second, There is no paperwork nightmare anymore because doctors and hospitals will be forced to itemize in a way the customer can understand. Third, competition on a level playing field always brings down prices, always, period, no exceptions. Fourth, there will be no unnecessary "stuff" to pay for because the customer will not allow those businesses that charge for unnecessary stuff to have their business. Anyway, you get the idea.

The solution I've offered doesn't force anyone to do anything. If the government will stay out of price control and insurance is outlawed, the problems will simply disappear.

Other solutions are available on request.

Best,


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


OutPutter, Yes, I agree that this is fun and I like hearing other comments and views, to me it gives you insight and other valid points you might want to consider - a learning experience.

My *personal view* on healthcare is focused on coverage for *every American Citizen* by any means, including universal. My heart goes out to those in dire need of healthcare and my concern goes out to those who receive "free" healthcare coming out of other people's pockets.
I agree with you about costs and how they are arrived at, no many other industries have the luxury of being able to inflate their price of goods and get away with it - although I have heard of high priced hammers and commodes that taxpayers purchase. I was watching a program only the other night which probed hospital charges for services and items, the *lowest* markup was around 400%.
Only today I had a cast removed from my leg and a surgical boot fitted. The invoice cost of the boot was $314 and I later checked the price of the same boot on Amazon and found it to be less than $50 - delivered !

Another thought I would like to say involves happiness in working. Most people would love to have a job doing something they really liked to do or a passion. Sadly there are so many people unhappy in their work because they only took the job for the benefits - Medical Ins, housing etc, so their level of job satisfaction is low. You would be surprised how many join the military for the family med insurance, housing and family programs. I support and admire ALL our military personnel, but wonder sometimes if all of them really like the military or just see it as a way to survive.

Jim, you really do not say anything to cause me hard feelings, it is a healthy exchange of situations and ideas between people who have a high level of respect for honest thoughts.

Regards.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply Roger. You're really giving me some shivers over hear because I broke my leg over two years ago and it took two surgeries to fix it and I'm there with you. Anyway, you haven't answered my question yet.

What right do you have to force everyone to have health insurance?

And, here's another one.

Why not force everyone to have shopping insurance?
(Shopping insurance is what you get to cover you in case something in the kitchen breaks.)


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Jim, first let me state up front that I am not in favor of the plan that congress recently passed. I very much understand your point about not wanting to be forced to have insurance. I have no problem with that, as long as you don't expect a penny of my taxes to help foot the bill when you get sick or injured.

But the government forces things on us all the time. They take our tax money and use it to provide services (you know… like the bull services the cow.) We don't get to opt out of certain services and get a tax refund in return.

But getting back to insurance, I think there are a couple of things you are not considering. For one, even if you took all the profit margin out of health care, it is still going to be expensive when you have a serious illness or major accident. The average person could not afford a two month stay in the hospital, even if costs were 80% lower than they are now. The purpose of insurance is to pool resources to cover each other's catastrophes. I paid my homeowner's insurance for years without a claim, but when Katrina hit I got back more than I had ever paid in.

Second, it's not just profit margin that makes health care so expensive. Insurance companies pay out an average of 85 to 90 cents in claims for every dollar they collect in premiums. The rest has to cover all their administrative expenses. What's left is a lower profit margin that most other types of major corporations have.

So why the high cost of health care? Lawsuits for one. Every time someone sues a doctor or hospital, the costs of legal defense gets passed on to you and me. Providing care to the uninsured, as I mentioned before, is also a big factor driving costs higher.

I do agree with you that we would be better off with a non-profit system. But instead of letting it be every-man-for-himself-and-damn-the-folks-who-just-can't-afford-it, I'd prefer to see a system where everyone pays withholding tax, just like social security, and government uses that money to run clinics and hospitals that any citizen can go to with no additional charge. If everyone was paying their share into the system, I don't think the cost would be that high for any of us as individuals.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Charlie,
Just because you can does not give you the right. You keep jumping over the rights of others to accomplish your desires. Why do you do that? Make a case for you having the right to take my insurance money to pay your hospital bills. Concentrate on what gives you the right.

BTW, I didn't advocate a non-profit system. Just one that, using your insurance numbers, is automatically lower by 10-15% because of no insurance companies. Just think for a moment about your comment about not being able to afford health care. If I didn't have insurance benefits from my employer, I bet it would lower their cost by over $1000 per month. When was the last time you got a $1000/month raise? Me neither. Now, being a rational consumer, I could save at least $400 of that (lol) for future medical costs. Even if I didn't, I could pay off a bill of many thousands in just a few years. In the meantime, it would change my lifestyle to have $1000/month at my disposal. Think about how much your life would change if you had the money instead of giving it to an insurance company.

Don't forget, concentrate on where you got the right to take my money.

Best,


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I repeat myself:

Jim, first let me state up front that I am not in favor of the plan that congress recently passed. I very much understand your point about not wanting to be forced to have insurance. I have no problem with that, as long as you don't expect a penny of my taxes to help foot the bill when you get sick or injured.

My point was that, regardless of our principles, in the real world we always have things forced upon us, like it or not. We live in a representative democracy. We elect out congress, and then we have to live with the laws they pass. If we all had the freedom to exercise our rights and have no decisions forced on us, we would be living in anarchy.

Let me pose this question to you, Jim, and then I'm going to bed. 

Even if you and I would be able to save enough money to take care of our own health care, what about the poor and the unemployed? Are you willing to say "tough luck for them" and just let them die when they get sick? If you are, that's fine… I respect your opinion. All I'm saying is that if you want things to be a certain way, you have to be willing to live with the consequences. Because the minute we start giving away health care to the poor and the unemployed, your cost and mine will go up, and we won't be able to afford to fend for ourselves without insurance anymore.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Repeating yourself is a sure sign we're not communicating Charlie. I'm trying to get you to justify your opinion on the subject by starting with the basics. You can be one of the people who accept the destruction of private property rights by the government "because they do it every day" or you can be one of the people who question where the right to take my money comes from. We don't have to live with the laws just because we elected them. We can change the laws by electing others. First you have to decide if taking my money is right or not though. Make the case or admit it, you think you're entitled to take my money because you're secretly a *COMMUNIST!!!!*


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Jim, Sorry to hear about your broken leg problem, you have got to know how tiresome it is being immobilized with a leg break. I did mine 11 weeks ago and went through "tries" with casts, and finally last week with surgery. Basically I have been in a reclining chair with my leg elevated for 11 weeks - boring and a sore ass.
Now to the answers for your questions:

What right do you have to force everyone to have health insurance?
I don't have any right to force anyone to do anything, but I sure would like to see the same military, polititions and goverment employees benefits offered to all the other US citizens as well.

Why not force everyone to have shopping insurance?
That's not wanted as guarantees come with shopping purchases.

Anyway Jim, this has been an interesting exchange, very informative and thought provoking, and I welcome talking with you again on any subject.
So here we are putting the world to order over the dining table, each in our own way but now its back to woodworking where we are all buddies. There will be more meals at this table, no doubt.

Regards, Be Safe )))))


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I don't see it as an argument to be won or lost, Jim. I'm just discussing different points of view. I can argue either side of the health care issue, because I think there are pros and cons on both sides.

For thousands of years, governments have been taking people's money through taxation, and spending it as they see fit. If you believe that government and taxes should not exist, that makes you, by definition, an anarchist. But if you do believe government and laws are necessary, then *you* are the one giving *them* the right to make you buy insurance. The problem with democracy is that sometimes we don't personally agree with the decisions made by our fellow voters and the politicians they elect. I did *not* vote for our current president. But because my fellow citizens elected him, and because I believe in democracy, I have to live with what he does.

So when you ask what gives one person a right to force another person to buy insurance, the short answer is "Democracy"! (Not Communism)

And speaking of not answering questions, you never answered mine:

Are you okay with unemployed and poor people dying because they can't afford to pay for treatment when they get sick?

I'm not trying to make you seem cold hearted, Jim, I'm just reiterating the point that if you want things to be a certain way, you must be prepared to live with all the consequences.

Now that we have failed to solve all the world's problems, let's go make some sawdust.!


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Charlie,
So what's the flavor of sawdust for today? Just being nosey !


----------



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Why we should eliminate discussion of religion and politics in woodworking is plainly evident here in this post alone. Woodworking can easily be talked about spiritually but broadly with no specific dogma only. There are lots of great writers and poets that have done so.

But frankly politics don't belong in a woodworking discussion. Because even if it is woodworking related it always breaksdown and leaps from reason to hyperbole.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


*JAGWAH*:

I tend to use a HAMMER in my left hand, but a screwdriver in my right.

Would that tend to indicate that I'm liberal, conservative, independent, or … just confused ?

I need to know.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I am creating a *liberal* amount of cedar sawdust milling some rough cut lumber for a picnic table.
It smells *heavenly*!!


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Rough cut lumber tends to be cheaper. Seems a fiscally conservative approach


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hi Jagwah,
Your post is appreciated, and yes religion and politics get some people really mad and abusive. But we are lucky enough to have some people who are more "adult" and considerate than others, and can share a thought without a declaration of war. So politics and religion are topics that some cannot handle in a rational and pleasant way, so we ban the topics because belligerent cannot control themselves - pity.

Hypothetical questions:
If the government instigated a 400% tax increase on lumber, would our post be about Wood or Politics?

If a religious group changed the Cross (crucifix) to an X of certain dimensions in Oak, would our post be about Wood or Religion?

I do understand and appreciate the obvious Politics and Religion restrictions, but I also believe in free speech in an appropriate section for those wishing to voice thoughts and personal goals. If wood related info is all that you are interested in, then simply, you just avoid unrelated sections.

Jagwah, no bad feelings or criticism of your post is intended here, we are all individuals who can live in Harmony.

All the Best


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


NBeener,
The answer to the Hammer/Screwdriver question is simple - communist. 
You hammer everyone into submission, then screw them. )


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Roger…That makes my local building inspectors communist.


----------



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hah! *NBeener*, Roger Clark called it, commie!

But *Roger* when you say,"we are all individuals who can live in Harmony," it makes me laugh.

Your all right it should be opened up to free speech about any subject. Anybody want to see my BOOBIES?


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


That's a nice pair of boobies, JAG. You should have held those suckers up when you posed in your skirt.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


No, no, no.

I simply MUST disagree.

I said hammer … screwdriver.

Communist would be hammer … sickle.

Try again.

:-D


----------



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Thank you Charlie. Boobies like these are not easy to handle.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I can see from here those man boobies are going to cause this to get nasty.








Charlie: Your question assumes they will die poor and lonely if they can't afford insurance. You know as well as I do that poor people get health care when they need it. As for the democracy argument, you seem to be forgetting we have a constitution. The rules have already been agreed on. Implied in my question is, given our constitution, what gives you the right… And, don't play with the "argue both sides thing either". Tell me what Charlie would say if he was telling me what Charlie really believes. I can argue both sides in the shower.

Now, I'm going to finish laughing about all the other comments. This is so much fun. As long as that bunch that always ruins a good discussion doesn't find us, I don't think Martin will notice.
Shhhhh, don't tell them…


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


And for the other confused folks out there, please don't worry, this is just the audience warm up group for SNL.
Just wait, NBeener will do his Sarah Palin take off, and you'll hear music by Pope and the Penguins and Jag doing his take on Zeus and Charlie as Robin Hood of Sherwood Forest (notice the mention of WOOD connection).
Sit back folks and *enjoy*. ))


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


NBeener,
Fiscally conservative, but it is taxing on my health to do the extra work.

JAGWAH,
If I had boobies like that, I'd be showing them off, too.

Roger,
*"We are all individuals who can live in harmony."*
I commend your optimism.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hey Mary Ann,
Yeah I'm an optimist all right, that's what comes from being married to a pessimist !!


----------



## Misesfan (Mar 12, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Taking a break from the shop to read this post - interesting how a post twists and turns sometimes.

In my opinion, politics and religion affects us all to a greater extent than most realize. Why do prices for our tools always increase? How does a man not using a rip fence on a table saw successfully sue the tool company for negligence? Why does oak, arguably the most numerous tree in our nation, literally outnumbering the population of the US, cost so dang much?

And as far a health care is concerned, the only mechanism that guarantees higher quality and lower prices is competition. How does establishing a government monopoly over a market able to increase quality and lower costs? It cannot - thus the quality of health care will be lower with higher prices. It is inevitable. Then government will further expand to fix these problems, and so on and so on…


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Hey Jim,
There ain't no flies on me, just the marks where they have been.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Jim, you said:

*"You know as well as I do that poor people get health care when they need it."*

Now you are finally getting my point! Who is paying for the care poor people get? You and me, Jim. Along with paying for the care of people who were not responsible enough to have their own insurance or savings.

All I'm asking is that if I have to pay for somebody else's health care anyway, that they find a more equitable way to make everybody contribute.

Maybe you and I are responsible enough to take care of our own health care, Jim. But I have known a lot of people who *could* have afforded insurance, or *could* have saved on their own, but *didn't*. When those people get sick, and receive treatment they can't pay for, the rest of us foot the bill by way of inflated costs.

So yes, I would rather see a system where those people were forced to contribute their fair share, than a system where they skate on my nickel.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Charlie, what you're really saying is, if I have to pay, then everyone else should pay too. Typical "other people's money" mentality.

Everyone else pays a higher price at the Walmart because of shoplifters. Why not require shopping insurance so that everybody that doesn't shop at Walmart has to pay anyway? I'll tell you why. Because our constitution doesn't allow the government to prescribe health care, *a product, not a right*, be bought with insurance, no matter what you say. Get with the *real *solution. Get rid of insurance and bring the price down as far as it's possible in a free trade economy instead of one with prices set by the government.

Stop defending unconstitutional methods of problem solving. You can get what you want - high quality, cheap as possible - health care without resorting to unconstitutional methods. *At least try *before you start taking other people's money.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I gotta love it, Jim.

I'm sitting here telling you I hate paying for freeloaders who aren't willing to pay their own share. Last I checked, this was a pretty staunch conservative point of view.

Heck, I don't care if you disagree with my opinions, but to start insinuating I'm some kind of liberal? Them's fightin' words!!!


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


You're just confused Charlie. Lookie here:
1) People who don't have insurance but pay for their health care
2) People who have insurance and pay their left over charges
3) People who don't pay for what ever reason

Now which group(s) will pay more for health care with mandatory insurance?
Group 1
Which group(s) will pay less for health care with mandatory insurance?
Group 2

You may think you're helping group 3 but, their cost for health care will be unaffected. You're just taking away someonelse's money for no good reason. Everyone knows health care costs will not be lowered by mandatory insurance. Even inusrance costs will not be lowered.

Now what right do you have you … you… *liberal*







you….? hehehe
Remember, I've answered your questions. You owe me an answer. What right do you have?


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


OK folks, it seems we are down to 2 sparring partners left in this post, and wouldn't you know it would be the Interstate 10 duet. Jim has been in denial that the Oilers left Houston and Charlie still won't let the Saints Bowl win fade away. This pair are always last to leave the bar and always want the last "say". If you think their posts here are boring then you should read some of their posts on seafood, particularly Shrimp.
So folks go get some rest and if you have nothing much to do tomorrow, check in again, it'll still be going.
PS I am not telling anyone they MUST get some rest, it's just a suggestion.
G'night all.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Jim, it's okay… we just disagree on some basic assumptions here. Heck. I've been wrong before and I may be wrong this time. But as to the three groups you mention, this is how I see it:

Group 1) This group only exists as long as nothing really serious happens to them, or they are Bill Gates rich. The average guy like you and me can't pay for a heart transplant, or 3 months in the hospital recovering from a brain injury. So the hospital has to write off much of the cost, which means prices go up for the rest of us.

Group 2) This group will stay pretty much the same in the beginning, but their costs should eventually go down once everyone is paying into the system and hospitals don't have to eat as much bad debt.

Group 3) The poor people are going to get some level of care regardless. I don't have a problem with some of my tax dollars helping out people who are truly in need through no fault of their own.

You can forget about groups 2 and 3, because the point you and I are really in disagreement about is group 1. So here goes my compromise. I hope we can agree on it. *I will fully support your constitutional right to not buy health insurance, as long as you would be willing to sign a document stating that you understand you will be refused any treatment for which you are unable to pay in full, either in cash from personal savings or with a private loan.* (Don't tell me you'll pay the debt to the hospital in monthly installments, because they need the money now, or else they will raise prices to cover it.)

Whaddya say, Jim.. can we both accept those terms?


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I can't believe it. We do agree on something. Let's go slow though so we don't get all confusticated again. 
The people who don't pay are in group 3. It's not a matter of opinion since I made it up. Don't confuse them with group 1. Group 1 can pay by definition whether it's because they saved, were rich, or never got sick. All the non payers for whatever reason and in whatever amount go in group 3. And yes, you may move from one group to another at different times.

Now, when you look at it, without trying to redefine the groups, I think you agree with my questions.
Now which group(s) will pay more for health care with mandatory insurance? Group 1
Which group(s) will pay less for health care with mandatory insurance? Group 2

Next:
1) We agree that mandatory insurance will probably take from Group 1 and give to Group 2.
2) You don't mind paying for Group 3 if it's from higher taxes but you do mind if it's from higher inusrance premiums (because the hospital raises the prices because of bad debt) and especially if Group 1's money isn't taken from them.
3) You're willing to compromise on a pricipal and take from Group 1 so you can give to Group 2 even if it's unconstitutional.

What I don't get is 2 above. Why become a communist just so you can lower Group 2's cost? Is other people's money grating on you so much you just can't let it alone? Why not just be happy with what you have and figure out your own method of lowering your health care cost without taking from someone else? You choose to pay higher premiums. They're not forced on you, are they? Remember, we have a constitution (and don't forget, you have yet to admit you have no right to take my money). Finally, your compromise is another example of how you disrespect constitutional rights. You are willing to take away my right to not buy insurance if I agree to give up my right to treatment. Sorry, I want all my rights, period. How about this compromise? You can have my money when I decide to join Group 2 and not a minute sooner and as punishment for trying to take my rights, you will give up your right to Wipe On Poly for the rest of your natural days.

PS - Please don't try to muddy the waters again by changing up the groups. I made it up. I have a right to make it up like I want, don't I?

PSS - How do you like my new flame thrower?


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


So the bottom line is that you don't want to buy insurance. I'm fine with that.

But you still want to get treatment when you run out of money. Which means the hospital will have to eat your bill, which means they will raise prices, which means my health care costs will go up.

You're willing to take a risk because someone else is covering your backside. You want to have your cake (the freedom to not buy insurance) and eat it too (still get treated if you can't afford to pay). That's not upholding the constitution, Jim… that's being a cheapskate.

I'll bet you sneak into your neighbors' yards at night and steal their trees so you can have free wood for your projects. 









Back at you. ;-)


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


We diverge again. You are confusing the groups I made up. Group 1 pays their bills. Group 3 doesn't. Try to focus on the post with this in mind. If you forget, you end up with the last thing you posted and it doesn't apply. Except for the neighbor's trees but that's another subject.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


...My favorite Walnut tree too…


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Good morning fellow LJs.
Welcome to the continuing saga of "As my stomach Turns".
This week our 2 heroes, Jim the Oiler and Cajun Charlie continue on their quest to become this site's next lobotomy candidate, while Dennis explains the virtue of his patented Belly Button Cleansing and Beautification Kit.
Guest appearances by Neil (I've got my Own Button) Beener will be made during his sanatorium breaks.
Yours truly will be spending week with a leg in the air and dreaming about working in the shop.
So folks, when you take a break, check in to see the latest antics of our heroes.
Y'all have a super shop day and be careful and have fun.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Roger, we were all having a nice time discussing Dennis' original post until you came along and laid the smelly turd of healthcare right smack in the middle of the forum. Now you want to stick you hands in your pockets and look around whistling like you are some sort of casual observer at a WWF event. lol!


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


*MOI*


> ? Charlie


. Heaven forbid that I would stoop to such evil things.

he he


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


God and Religion

who owns a wife here?

every wonder why soldiers die?

health Care, smealth care

all of it is immaterial when tears are shed over a grave of a soul we loved for words left unsaid and deeds undone…...no bitter a tear was ever shed

cheers 2 bushmeat and pens


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Normally I'd just declare victory and celebrate but, I'm still in need of a little more fun. So, here goes.

Let's say everybody has to buy insurance. It costs $12,000/year.
For the person making $48K/year that's 25% of their salary.
For the person making $480K/year that's 2.5% of their salary.
For the person making $4.8Million/year that's .25% of their salary.

Now, all three people get really sick and the bill turns out to be $1Million. Still, all three have only paid $12K for the year. Is it obvious how redistribution of wealth is working against all the other poor slobs making $48K? They're subsidising the rich people's premiums for insurance. Should we have a more progressive insurance premium system so that the people who can afford to pay for their own health care (not health insurance) aren't allowed to have insurance?

Trust me when I warn you. I'm not that smart. Some of these redistributors have already figured this out. It will happen as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow (that is to say that the only circumstance under which it will not happen is if the sun stops coming up). What gives them the right? Charlie, and everyone else that compromised on constitutional rights.

Have a nice day,


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


...and then we have those who only make $12,000 a year.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


dennis, ..........yes and they are likely to be woodworkers with their chips down.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Outputter

You just demonstrated why talking about politics and religion often turns into war… when someone makes it about *winning*.

What victory did you achieve, exactly, that is worth celebrating? Do you think you changed anyone else's view on the issue? You made up the groups, the numbers, and the scenarios, (that do not reflect the real world) and applied your logic to it. How could you lose? LOL


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Mary Anne,

I was talkiing about Charlie. My victory was that I got the last word and if you know Charlie, that's a big victory. There's never a chance of changing Charlie's mind and even if he changed it, he wouldn't let me know. lol We were just having fun and you overheard us. Unfortunately *you *have demonstrated why it's hard to have these kinds of conversations. We were being civil to each other (as we always are). Since we know how to interpret each other's typing from experience, we don't take offense to claims about winning and losing and being a communist or anything. I hope you won't take offense when you overhear us either.

If you really want to join the debate, I'd love to respond to your points about scenarios and the real world and such. Just let me know which scenarios you didn't like.

Best,


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Actually, Jim, your last post about the cost of insurance is one I agree with. I think way back in one of my early comments in this thread, I said I favored a payroll deduction that would work like social security, where everyone paid a small percentage of their income. In return, everyone would have health care at no additional cost. That way, everyone would be contributing, but only in proportion to their income.

Now , please reply so you can have the last word. I've got no desire to spoil your "victory".


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


You've missed the point. It's not possible to equalize the premiums by payroll deduction. The rich people don't get a paycheck. But really when you think about it, wouldn't it be better to just let the rich people pay for their health care without using insurance? That way, the *poor *folks *can't *subsidize their insurance.

I'm not done with you yet but, I'll let you know when I'm ready to declare final victory.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


"I'd prefer to see a system where everyone pays withholding tax, just like social security," 
Translation: *From each according to his ability.*

"and government uses that money to run clinics and hospitals that any citizen can go to with no additional charge." 
Translation: *To each according to his need.*

Translation summary: Let's use *communism*, capitalism is a failure.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Nah, communism doesn't work, because people are just too greedy. Not that capitalism doesn't bring out THAT trait. I'll have to say that the answer has yet to be found, due to the demands and expectations of the population. As soon as shows like "American Idol" cease to be topics of conversation in the workplace (and EXIST), we might have a chance. As a general observation, I say people seem to spend more time on entertainment than what needs to be done. The general population should come here and find out what good can result from the use of their brains and their own two hands.

To address your original post, Dennis, I think that people confuse "spiritual" with an appreciation of beauty. Just because a person finds something appealing doesn't mean (to me) that there is some sort of "spirit" living in it. But that's me.

Meaning? It's in the eye of the beholder, and if you look around here, it's all over the map.

To address your last sentence-

...my solution for getting the runaround on a warranty claim at Big Orange was not to buy from them. The amount of money I spen(t) in there was enormous. I didn't buy there for years, but the real solution was to do what one of my neighbors did- found the regional office and complained. They GAVE him the wood that he complained about AND a refund. I guess I just don't live right. I'd have solved my problem and they'd have gotten more of my money, as opposed to the guys down the street.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I consider the act of creation to be very spiritual.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Spirituality is where you seek it.


----------



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Charlie: Unless you seek it within yourself.
Atom: Are you really expecting a system that can't be abused to show up? Really?


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Luke might disagree with you, Jim:

Luke 17:21 (King James Version)

*Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.*


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand if you think the "kingdom of God" is equivalent to "spirituality".


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Besides, you still owe me.
;-)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


But I thought spirituality was authentically brewed in Scotland. ????
mmmm time for another pill.


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## alba (Jul 31, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Oops!
Everything I make falls into a religious category.
Even a hermit cant avoid politics, I've tried. Although I never discuss them.

Right livelihood is my only aim and that is between myself & myself.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

dennis said:


> *Politics Religion and Woodworking*
> 
> We use to talk about God and Politics here at LumberJocks. We had no need for a rule excluding it. From my point of view woodworking is a spiritual experience. The very nature of it. The heart of a tree. The finest examples of the art of woodworking are found in religious buildings around the world. I don't see how we can really talk about woodworking and not talk about the deep meaning it has in so many peoples lives.
> 
> ...


Blargh. Just jumping backwards slightly to read a previous bit in your blog here.

To EVERYONE: just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean that it is wise or prudent to go around shouting out anything and everything you feel/believe/think. In fact, there's a quote out there about the amount of speaking you do being relational to how much you reveal of your idiocy.

Secondarily, like my freedom of speech exercise, most laws and regulations are meant to be a compromise between freedom and simply society working, and everyone kind of getting along with each other. Without the freedom, there's no spontaneity, no creativity, and life's just not fun; without the laws, there's no order, nobody thinking of their neighbor (or neighborhood), and like an engine missing its grease, society grinds to a halt.

The first part of discussing politics is understanding what and why it is…


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*

Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years. 
All is not lost I dragged out my dewalt. You know "key less" chucks mark the end of civilization. I don't know how many times I've watched a key less chuck spin around a stuck drill bit. So I tighten it, it spins again. Nothing would work. My dad rants about how worthless key less chucks are, but I know people who swear they have never had a problem. Really! They must live in a different universe. We change a design to save "how" many seconds changing a bit. Three maybe four, or if you are like me three or four hours, because I'm guaranteed to lose the key. My brain kinks in and I see it clear as day. New Improved a key less chuck. The root of all evil. Think about it. My father has some old metal case craftsman tools from the 70's that still work. If you think that fancy portacable belt sander will be running in 2050 you have been breathing too many lacquer fumes. Those tools use to be made here at home. That's right American made quality tools. But no, we needed key less chucks. Lose you life savings in the tech bust…yep key less chucks. Have your daughter in a meth rehab? Lose your house to the housing bubble? Climate change, antibiotic resistant microorganisms, government deficits, terrorism, Charlie Sheen…yep all caused by key less chucks.
You might thing I'm just channeling the spirit of chicken little, but let me tell you about the height of western culture. It just happens to be the solution to my assembly issue. The 9 volt makita drill. I still have the original. It still works. Put the drill bit in and "walawww" top bar hive assembled! I don't know if that was the chicken or the egg of our down fall, but that drill made every corded drill obsolete. I now own 6 of them. But even their days are numbered. The dark cloud on the horizon was the batteries. When I grabbed my trusted makita the last of the fancy new batteries bit the dust. Those new grey things where suppose to be the cats meow. I have six drills cause It was cheaper to buy a drill with two batteries than just two batteries. That alone is a harbinger of the end times. Wouldn't it make more sense to sell two batteries cheaper than two batteries, a drill and a charger? So today I have six drills and three batteries. The batteries are the old black ones that outlasted makitas "new improved" grey slugs. Well, hell in a hand basket, I'll take my tongue out of my cheek, just enough to say "You know we really are screwed. It's not just my life that has gone to the dogs, but my whole country's." Yep I'll go post my new top bar hive before the Lumberjock police get me for doing politics. Maybe next time I'll drag God out of the cellar!


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Good grumble Dennis - you had me reading all the way to the end. I still have my old "obsolete" Craftsman corded drill. It won't die.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


I still have my old corded Rockwell 1/2" drill/hammer drill that has outlasted my others. I think I'm done with cordless tools in the shop as well as keyless chucks that my carpel tunnel hands have a hard time dealing with.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Dennisd; very profound writing. It's always great to hear some one speaking the truth.

(Not with a forked tongue )

My prayers are with you. I'll bring out God out of the cellar.


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## Mickit (Feb 6, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Dennis, the only cure I've found for them dadgummed keyless chucks, are those infernal hex shank"no spin' bits A match made in Heaven…or elsewhere


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## spunwood (Aug 20, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Reminds me of trying to figure out why hot dogs come in different numbers than hot dog buns.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Dennis, the more I read the more I understand and sympathize. You are so right about the batteries/charger/drill 
being cheaper than buying two batteries. I've quit buying DeWalt drills for that very reason.
Now here's a thought…ever think about trying to market your hive boxes on the net? The only thing I know about bees is that's where honey comes from and they sting so it's just a thought.
Good luck.


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Things are tough. I can sympathize with you . Had to sell the power tools to cover some medical bills . Still have my 25 yr old craftsman corded drill and it works great . Last winter I was living in my car and sleeping in the wal-mart parking lot. Sometimes we just have to adapt to circumstances and do the best we can . I hope things turn around for you real soon. There is no god of explanations , but there is always Hope…..always….Hang in there…....things are never as bad as as you think they are going to be . I Like your attitude about the Bee hive …. We do what we can, while we can , with what we have at hand , and hope for brighter days….peace.
....moment


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## therightside (Jun 18, 2011)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Well said, Moment.


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


I can't believe you've given up your beautiful rustic artwork. You must have a serious condition to limit you to a couple hours of work a day. You have my sympathy, or empathy, as you will. I still try like hell to get out there and do something with whatever I can find. Sometimes it's wood out of the burn pile. I'm with Karson, I'll drag God out of the cellar, he gave you too much talent to let it go to waste. If you are depressed, I can understand. Sometimes it takes all my effort to just leave the house, or get out 0f the house. Keep your chin up and express your talent, even if you just paint,


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

dennis said:


> *Woodworkers spark the end of western civilization*
> 
> Not many grumbles from the shop these days. It seems that when a contractor orders a kitchen he expects a completion date. Go figure. Health issues have limited my work day to an hour or two a day. So projects are few and far between. Unfortunately so are paychecks. The woodworking withdrawals set in bad so I started a project just for me. I raised bees in my younger days and wanted to get a hive again, but they cost some bucks, so when I found out about top-bar hives I knew I could get a hive for nothing. Right in my price range.
> So I'm out in the shop feeding the wood bug, the addiction, the passion, the beast, first I have to organize the place. A year of opening the shop just to shove crap in sure makes for a disorganized mess. You know I just might have a touch of depression. Sure as ******************** didn't feel like my spirit gave a damn about woodwork. Ya know! Days later I fine the table saw. I torn down a small shed so I have some wood. (note that thing about paychecks, being broke sucks) Parts are cut and ready for assembly. My last year working I bought one of those cool little 9 volt ion drill things from home despot with the matching flash light. The batteries are dead. Well they will work in the flash light, but forget turning a screw. Man. I use to really like that drill and it died within two years.
> ...


Very powerful stuff. I feel impotent to help. Do you have a doctor that you trust? One that understands how your limitations are affecting your enjoyment of life? I hope you do, if not, PM me and I'll see if I can help.


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