# Anyone try upgrading their HF DC impeller?



## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

The Harbor Freight 2HP Dust Collector has a 10" impeller. By most accounts this is too small for a 2HP system leaving usable HP off the table. I'd like to know if anyone has successfully done the upgrade and if they did, what part# did they use.

I've done a lot of searching, but haven't seen any part numbers of successful upgrades.

On the thien forum, one person tried using Grizzly's impeller part# P1028Z2010 and it was so heavy, the motor couldn't bring it up to speed fast enough to prevent it from tripping the breaker.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

on a well designed DC the impeller and blower housing are matched. The impeller is not in the center. It is offset to cause more of a spiral effect. If you go to Bill Pentz's website he has a further more scientific explanation.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

You are proposing something impossible.
Any one of the major components that make up the HF dust collector, if purchased saparately, would cost as much as you paid for the entire collector.
It would be like going to the auto parts store and buying a car, piece at a time. It would cost over $100,000.
And, what's the point?
If you were to be phenomenally lucky and find an impellor that fit the motor shaft, and fit in the housing, and was larger in diameter, and you could afford it, I will gurantee that it will overload the motor under some operating situations. 
Then when your motor fries what you going to do?


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi Shawn, crank49

"on a well designed DC" you are right. The problem is the HF DC is by many accounts not well designed. They are usually cheap ripoff of other DC designs. The impeller is way undersized for a 2HP motor. But being cheap also, makes them an attractive option for tinkering with. The going price for replacement impellers from grizzly and delta that I think might work are [$110-$136] and $82 respectively. 
If you look at sites like ereplacementparts.com, you'll see that the same impeller is often sold as a replacement for several DC models despite having different HP motors. Also most induction motors within the same HP range tend to have the same shaft diameter to fit within a NEMA standard.

I actually have another 2hp 240V motor that I got off of craigslist in case this one blows.

Update: I found this while I was writing this post:

…As Alan stated the impeller is smaller than most, measuring 9.75", but the 12" impeller from a Rikon 60-200 DC is a perfect and easy direct fit replacement. It was $60 + shipping when I got mine.

I got this from comment #13
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?186964-Dust-Collector-One-6-quot-Intake-VS-Two-4-quot-Intakes


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Sarit, I would think a 12" impeller would overwhelm that motor. Most 2 HP blowers come with the 12", but the HF is more like a 1.5 HP, and those are usually sold with 11" impellers. Not trying to dissuade you from any plans, but give it careful consideration. I dod remember a guy who increased his impeller. Years ago some of the forums had a member with the screen name "Dizzy". Dizzy was a talented metalworker/welder as well as a skilled woodworker. He took a Jet 1100 impeller and welded an extension on each vane (1/2" more, I think). Then carefully checked for imbalance (none) and motor overload (also none). Regardless, good luck with your quest….but if it were me, starting with a more capable unit would be a lot easier.


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## MR_Cole (Jun 1, 2012)

That forum is saying that all or the HF impellers are backwards!


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Some fans are designed with forward inclined vanes and some are straight or backward inclined. Can't say they are made incorrectly unless you know what the original design was. The angle has a great deal to do with the volume v.s. pressure curves and also the capacity to run in different temperatures without overloading.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, HF's use forward-inclined fans whereas most use backward inclined or just straight radial fans. Forward inclines provide more flow at the expense of more HP and noise, but quickly lose their flow as pressure increases which makes them bad candidates if you plan to add things like cyclones or thein baffles and/or a duct network.

I'm not trying to do the impossible here, I just heard somewhere that someone actually did it. It was a simple drop in replacement and since I'll be monitoring the amp draw I think there's little to worry about. If it was any more work than that, then I would forget about it.

I'm hoping that someone who's actually tried it, could chime in here to let us know about their experiences.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

There is a lot to consider to be sure! what is the operating current draw of the present motor without any ducting either to or from the fan? I don't believe the fan blade from grizzley was to heavy. it was trying to move to much air with the given power. the current is directly effected by the volume of air that it is moving and Inversely effected by pressure. it takes less current to run a plugged fan than it does to run an open one.different fan styles have different effects on pressure, volume and staying clean.
what part of performance are you hoping to make better? higher pressure(suction) or more volume. other things that change are the opening size and style. with the same fan housing and blade more air can be moved if there is a properly shaped inlet rather than a blunt square edge. also the amount of clearance between the fan blades and the entrance side of the housing is important. is the existing blade set to far back from the inlet surface. You may have seen where someone got lucky and found a "drop in upgrade" if you have please be sure to report your findings.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

The starting (0 rpm) current of any motor is going to be the highest current that it will ever see. It will almost always exceed the rated amp capacity of the amps on the motor plate. Also on 1 phase motors there is an extra starting coil that gets power until the centrifugal switch turns it off. 
From my reading of the posts, I don't believe they ever got the fan up to full operating speed such that the centrifugal switch would engage.

UPDATE: Someone on the other forum answered my question:
Hello, I have a HF DC with the Rikon 12" impeller installed. If you contact Rikon service you can order it, the model of their DC is the 60-200 and the part reference is #22. This easily slipped right onto the motor shaft.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=470.15


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## mantwi (Mar 17, 2013)

Here's a link to a 5 video tutorial on a Thien separator that will increase performance without modifying the machine itself. I have built a cyclone before using plans in an old issue of Wood magazine and this will be a much easier build. It looks so simple it's hard to believe it will actually work but seeing is believing.


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## Alan72 (Oct 31, 2012)

!https://storage.googleapis.com/aws-s3-lumberjocks-com/mm3umm8.jr
I ordered the impeller from Rikon and recieved it last Friday. This is what I got when I opened the box the impeller is setup counter clockwise. The harbor freight DC impeller spins clockwise so I have to send it back. The one thing that is true is that it does fit in the DC but spins the wrong way, that's sinks!


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

No, the direction is the same, just the shape of the blades are different. The rikon is designed with the more popular backward-inclined fan blade design whereas the HF is using a forward-inclined design.

Just look at Rikon's photo. The shape of the housing dictates which direction the impeller should spin. Since the housing is the same as the HF's, then it spins in the same direction.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Backward inclined impellers have a wider tollerance for loading.
They trade a little volume capacity for stability.

The forward inclined impellers, like HF uses, get a little more air flow from a given horse power motor but can more easily be overloaded.

Overload situations to be careful of with forward inclined impellers, like HF, are running without a bag, opening up the inlet to let more air in, running on a cold day.


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## Alan72 (Oct 31, 2012)

I was wrong about the impeller! Sarit was right, I'm glad I didn't send it back yet, I put on this past weekend. It took me a while because I didn't realize I needed a puller to get the impeller off. I got the puller and the impeller was off within 30sec. Put the Rikon impeller on and turned it on. Big difference with suction, the hum of the dust collector is slightly louder and the start up of the impeller takes a second longer to bring up to full speed. I want to thank Sarit for making me realize that I was wrong about the impeller.


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## boardmaker (Mar 8, 2011)

Wondering how much the new implellor costs? If you don't feel like posting it, would you message it to me. I'm interested possibly.


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## TomB19 (Jan 4, 2013)

Alan72, did you get a current draw rating from before and after the impeller swap? That would be interesting to see.


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## gmc (Jun 30, 2012)

Alan72, you have done a great job by not giving up. I have the same DC and have been watching closely. I would be interested to know the performance gain in your opinion, and weather or not you think the time and money spent were worth it. It is a great DC for us DIY who can't justify spending the big bucks on dust collection, I would feel different if I did this for a living.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm so happy you were able to use the impeller, Alan72.

Yeah, the HF DC is one of those purchases that you can keep tinkering and upgrading. The simplest way of seeing how your changes affects the performance of the whole DC system IMO is to use one of these:









http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-on-digital-multimeter-95683.html

so you can measure the amp draw. Higher amp draw means more CFM. I think that's what TomB19 is getting at.


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## RogerInColorado (Jan 18, 2013)

Alan72: I have read that people ordering the Rikon impeller had to provide a serial number of the machine it was going to be used on. I heard this most recently less than a month ago. Did you have to provide a serial number?


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## Alan72 (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry I been working the last few days and haven't had a chance to respond. The impeller cost $60.00 wth shippiing, and another $6.00 for the puller.
I was lucky, when you call Rikon to order make sure you don't try to order it with guy, he told me that he didn't want to be liable for selling the impeller if something goes wrong. I think that just BS, I called around 1300 EST and spoke to a young lady that help me order the part.
I dont' have the equipment to measure the amp output from one another, and I really don't wan't to spend the extra money to find out. It does take longer to bring up to full speed with the new Impeller. The suction from the collector has improved greatly! So far I'am very pleased with the upgrade and if you can manage to get the impeller I believe you would be just as happy with the increase performance of the DC.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

it is very stupid not to check the amps. if you are drawing at peak or higher then you will burn up the motor. when I built mine I had the intake cut out to 9" and watched the amps, they were 8 amps over. I covered the intake a little at a time and the amps started to come down. I reconfigured the intake so the amps were at 3 amps over it ended up being 7". The reason I left them high is that once the cyclone and piping were added to the mix the amps were under the FLA rating on the motor. A DC blower draws its peek amps in it's most open configuration.


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## Alan72 (Oct 31, 2012)

I was looking through some of my old posted comments and I figured I would give an update too how well the Rikon impeller was doing. The HF dust collector is still running without any issues, I know the DC is drawing more amps at start up. I didn't measure it yet but I did burn through 3 remote starters that I got from Home Depot. I did upgrade the dust collector to a Super Dust Deputy and have been getting good result . I use this DC at least 3-4 wk (emptying a 30 gallon drum of saw dust weekly) and still it keeps on running. For me I believe it was a good upgrade except for the burning out the 3 remote starts.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi Alan,

Nice to see that your DC is working well.


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

Alan, I'm wondering if this system will work with a 2" hose system? Have you tried it at this smaller level? I have been in the process of converting mine to a canister collector but my work requires the use of 2'' hoses. Does anyone know if this may work? Perhaps I will need to leave a "Y" open at the top to draw air in both a 2" line and a 4" vent?


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Usually 2" hoses are for shop vacs since they have the static pressure necessary to overcome the resistance in a 2" hose. DC's provide lots of CFM, but only if you have very low resistance ductwork which is why they are always 4+ in in diameter.


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

It would be very awkward for me to use 4" hoses. My intent is to use the system with floor sanding equipment. The dustless systems that are out there use either 2" or 2.5". I've tried a few, not happy as they either clog the hepa filter, have too small of a bag or are just too damn big…( like 2 55 gallon drums pust motor and blower.)
However since my last post I am looking at the leaf blowers as a idea that could be used. Air flow, even mulching fan blades on some. Although, that would not be needed as I plan on having the filters before the motor. This would also reduce the weight of the unit by quite a few pounds. Granted leaf blowers are a tad on the load side, but so is a drum sander with a 12 grit paper.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Have you considered using a dust deputy on top of the 55 gal drum and then piped to a high performance shopvac? The dust deputy will separate most of the dust before it hits the HEPA filter. I'm actually using one now to vac all the drywall dust and I haven't had to clean the filter after a day of sanding joint compound. Also there are some convertible shopvac/ leaf blowers out there that can be modified to work with the dust deputy so that everything is contained in the same unit.


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## onesojourner (Sep 13, 2013)

I would like to know how this goes. The harbor freight 2hp (and I doubt that, probably more like 1.5hp) did absolutely terrible in the reviews I've seen. At what point is is more cost effective to just get a grizzly or a jet?


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

This whole DC issue is makin' my head hurt.
If ya buy/have a HF DC, use good bags, good hoses, it will do what it is intended.
Those who want to take a $200.00 +_ DC and turn it into a $500.00 DC could be better served if they just bought a better in the first place.
Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
Mine, with good bags, keeps my shop clean.
How many more hours are we gonna spend on this issue?
Bill


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Well I got my HF DC for $139 with one of those coupons in the diy magazines. If I upgrade the impeller for $60 then I should get Rikon like performance for about half the cost. You can then add a .5 micron filter cartridge for $115. Add a thien baffle or pentz homemade cyclone and you will have a pretty high performance system for not a lot of cash.

The best part is that you need not put all the cash up front. Just upgrade as your needs and budget require.


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## Alan72 (Oct 31, 2012)

My first dust collector was a Delta 1 hr with a filter. It worked great, I kept hearing a lot of good things about the HF DC. I bought mine used for $80.00 put a Rikon impeller $60.00, new filter bag $40.00 and a Super Dust deputy $180.00 and another $50.00 for hoses. Sold the Delta and have no regrets. In fact, writing this I realized that my SDD cost more than the DC and Impeller upgrade. I like the HF Dc so much if the motor burns out I would buy a new one and just change out the impeller.


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

I haven't look at a dust deputy system..(yet), how ever my 20" U.F.O. from U.S. Sanders cutting with 80 and 100 grit screens produces a vast amount of very fine dust. Much like sheet rock dust but lighter. This is where I found a unprotected hepa filter to clog. I have purchased a workforce blower/vvac at a very nice price.(display model with parts that I didn't need, missing). It's rated at some 340 cfm, which if true is better than Oneida"s Cobra system at 240 cfm. So now it's time to cut some drums and add some inlets and things like that. Will be posting how this goes but it will not be all done today, that's for sure.


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

Just look at the dust deputy. I did look at it before, it just wasn't worth remembering I guess. My drum sander & belsander well, either one would fill it in 15 minutes or so. Which is why I didn't give that system much thought, The Oneida cobra also needs a second "stage " added to it when running machines like the American floor crafter. Something about relieving air from the machine's own fan system. Or somthing to that effect. Another reason that a higher cfm motor might be a better system.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

> I would like to know how this goes. The harbor freight 2hp (and I doubt that, probably more like 1.5hp) did absolutely terrible in the reviews I ve seen. At what point is is more cost effective to just get a grizzly or a jet?
> 
> - onesojourner


The performance on the HF unit greatly increases with the addtion of a Wynn Environmental Filter. These charts are pretty useless once improvements are made to offset the use of a Thien or comparable dust separator.


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## buildingmonkey (Mar 1, 2014)

Is that a 12" impeller? Read another thread somewhere where someone put a Jet 12" impeller in their HF DC.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi Paullhf,

Comparing cfm isn't a really useful metric by itself. Its sort of like how they use HP to compare vacuum motors. Or comparing gas engines by how much torque is produced. In this case CFM is often measured in free air with no hoses attached. To get a real idea of performance you need a fan curve chart that shows CFM vs static pressure.

About the dust deputy, you can purchase just the top portion and mount it to any container, even a 55g drum.

The Oneida Cobra seems like a great solution for your use case. The internal filter cleaner and RRP compliance are big plusses. If you go with the WorX you will still need some sort of cyclonic separator and HEPA filter which might not be easy to retrofit.

Another alternative is something like a Festool Cleantex + Dust Deputy Ultimate









It really depends on what your budget is and how much dust the sander produces. Remember w/ the cyclone you can fill the entire collection tank/bucket up to the brim, unlike a traditional shop vac that clogs the filter with just an inch of dust.


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

Sarit. I've been working on my dust collector these last few days, on and off. CFM's really aren't the best way to judge because you don't know where or how a company comes up with it's "magic" number, I know this. But it's a starting point. Like I said it was their numbers. As for the deputy, I am sure it will work for most people very well.But it is the smaller brother of Oneida"s Cobra. A good machine, lotsa people like them too 
But from a lay man's point of view, and still a few days off from a true test under live fire and real working conditions, I think I might be on track here. With a three inch inlet (and the machine on), there seems to be a greater suction than I was expecting. With fifty feet of 2''hose, I have no problem ingesting large stones over 1 1/2'' off the ground.
I do not have a means of measuring cfm or static pressure however this idea of mine does suck in a very good way. As for why starting with a three inch inlet, well that's what the motor came with. I did reserve a option to run with two 2'' lines as it might be useful in the "field". I am still in trials with the best filter-collection phase. I have three filter combo's in mind that should work either in a 2 stage or maybe 3 stage system. But I will not know until I put it through it's "sea trials" and to see how it preforms under fire in the real world. 
But regardless how it works out, I've had fun with this project. If it works then I will be very happy. If it doesn't then I'll bite the bullet, buy something that I don't really like until I and either buy a working system I like or Frankenstein something else that will work better. Either way next posting should be in a few days/week or so…


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## paullhf (Aug 9, 2014)

Well folks, here is my version of a dust collector. Currently, I'm using a 5 micron bag/ 3 micron hepa can filters in it. Perhaps a bit loud, then again so is a drum sander, router or a lot of other toys. I can see the need for a few changes to make it easier to move about and to empty. However, it works. Works rather well in fact. I have had no problems with it keeping up with my tools, even with a edger hooked up to one hose a a Clark Floor Crafter running off a 2nd. I may rebuild this one or just build a version with the upgrades I have in mind. Who knows, maybe even give it a decent paint job. The bottom line is this system does a fine job even with 50 feet of 2.5" line attached to 30 more feet of 1.5" going to a 9" vacuum "foot". Yes, with all that line there is a lot of loss in suction, but I had to try it out to see how it would work.


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## Rockiesfan (Nov 8, 2014)

I realize this is an older thread but wanted to add my two cents. I just replaced the impeller on my HF unit with the Rikon impeller. Before the change, I measured 9.1 amps with 2 gates open (most I will ever have). With the Rikon impeller I measure 10.3 amps with 2 gates. Startup current was 25 amps plus with either impeller (DC is on a dedicated 20 A circuit and breaker has never tripped). I should add that I have the Wynn nano canister filter and a Thein trash can separator in the system. Besides the increased current draw as an indication of increased flow, I also have one of those home made manometers using 1/4" poly tubing and a piece of copper tubing that goes in the duct main line. I did before and after measurements with the manometer as well and am getting 5/8" more travel on the water column than I had with the stock HF impeller. With just one gate open now the water column moves 1 3/4" from the rest position, which is also a considerable increase from the HF impeller. As I believe others have mentioned, the spin up and spin down take a bit longer and the unit does sound like a small jet engine now but there is no doubt I am moving more air. I see no down side to this conversion other than the cost. Rikon now gets $100 for the impeller with $15 for shipping. And the rep did ask for the serial # but when I explained to him all the investigation and careful measurements that have been done by people on this site and others, his only warning was that I could not return the unit. But for me, since I have a sensitivity to some wood dusts, the cost is worth it.


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## ThaddeusJ (Dec 14, 2015)

Does anyone have the Rikon part number to order?


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## Rockiesfan (Nov 8, 2014)

Thaddeus,
I don't remember that I gave Rikon a part number when I ordered mine, but I copied this info from a post above by Sarit:

"UPDATE: Someone on the other forum answered my question:
Hello, I have a HF DC with the Rikon 12" impeller installed. If you contact Rikon service you can order it, the model of their DC is the 60-200 and the part reference is #22. This easily slipped right onto the motor shaft."

Also, I have been running this impeller now for over a year and have encountered no problems. There was an opinion earlier that this swap could cause the motor to overheat and burn up but I measured current draw under various number of gates being opened and current was well within allowable range. I should note that I also use the Wynn nano canister filter, which allows a lot more air to flow through the system without causing any back pressure, so I suppose that could account for the current draw staying in range.


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

Putting a random impeller on your dust collector is exactly the same as putting some random wheels on your car. There is a small chance it will work but in most cases you are screwing up your equipment.


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## Rockiesfan (Nov 8, 2014)

716, while your comment taken at face value is true, you must not have read my posts on this, starting just 4 above this one. I did before and after measurements of pressure and current draw and everything was acceptable. I have been using the Rikon impeller for over a year and it works well, much better than the stock HF (and nothing got screwed up). I'm more than satisfied with my "random impeller".


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> This whole DC issue is makin my head hurt.
> If ya buy/have a HF DC, use good bags, good hoses, it will do what it is intended.
> Those who want to take a $200.00 +_ DC and turn it into a $500.00 DC could be better served if they just bought a better in the first place.
> - Bill White


I heard this so many times but not a single time it was proven by facts. Folks here bought their HF DC for under $140. Wynn 35A274BLOL filter costs $115, which brings the total price to under $255.
Now show me *any *brand name canister 2.0HP filter for that price.


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> This whole DC issue is makin my head hurt.
> If ya buy/have a HF DC, use good bags, good hoses, it will do what it is intended.
> Those who want to take a $200.00 +_ DC and turn it into a $500.00 DC could be better served if they just bought a better in the first place.
> - Bill White
> ...


Actually, what has been studied and shown is that it's not really a 2hp dust collector. More in the range of 1.5hp so not really comparing apples to apples.
Also, looking up the fan cruve charts, as posted in this thread previously, it's at the bottom of performance in comparison to the other brands.

Now, if that's acceptable because of the price to people, then that's their choice but what Bill said is true, if you buy this and expect it to act like something much more expensive by doing some upgrades here and there, it's just not going to happen.


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> I heard this so many times but not a single time it was proven by facts. Folks here bought their HF DC for under $140. Wynn 35A274BLOL filter costs $115, which brings the total price to under $255.
> Now show me *any *brand name canister 2.0HP filter for that price.
> - 716
> 
> ...


Exactly !!!
You as all other HF bashers come with all kinds of lame excuses as to "it is not a real 2HP only 1.5HP" (Do you really thinks that a large company would risk sticking a 2HP label on a 1.5HP motor in this lawyers infested country ?), "it is at the bottom … ", "It is green color" , "yada yada yada". 
Anything but: "Here is a Powermatic dust collector with a canister. It moves more air than HF and it costs less than $255"


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## AZWoody (Jan 18, 2015)

> I heard this so many times but not a single time it was proven by facts. Folks here bought their HF DC for under $140. Wynn 35A274BLOL filter costs $115, which brings the total price to under $255.
> Now show me *any *brand name canister 2.0HP filter for that price.
> - 716
> 
> ...


I'm not a harbor freight basher actually. I have 2 of the HF dust collectors and have actually used them in a real setting and tried some of the modifications mentioned on this website.
You might want to know what you're talking about before going on a little rant. I have many Harbor Freight tools in my shop. In fact, for the price, the Harbor Freight dust collector is a great tool but there's a caveat. It will not do the same job as their competitors at the same hp rating. It will beat their pants off in price, but not performance.

As with all tools, there are some that will rate better and others that won't. That has nothing to do with paint color. There's always going to be winners and losers in performance. Usually, but not always, cost is a factor in determining that.

As for labels, tools have been playing fast and loose with the hp rules for a long time. Take a look at routers. I have a Triton labeled at 3.25 hp. I don't believe for one second I'm getting that. Have you looked at the amp ratings of other routers? The numbers just don't add up. Same as the HF unit. I pulled 12 amps on my tests with them.

Another reason they are less efficient than the other units of the supposed same hp rating is the impeller size. You might want to look at the title of this thread. The impeller of the HF unit is undersized compared to what the other brands have inside of them. I even have a larger impeller sitting on my shop that I bought to upgrade until I decided to just bite the bullet and purchase a 5hp system and quit tinkering and stop trying to make the HF setup something it just is not.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> (Do you really thinks that a large company would risk sticking a 2HP label on a 1.5HP motor in this lawyers infested country


I could probably be labelled an "HF basher" but I have to agree with 716 here.

I don't think they can get away with it.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

There's a lot of misconception of what the HP rating of a DC means and how it actually relates to its performance and its motor.

First of all lets make sure we all understand how the induction motors on these DC's work. A typical motor is rated at 3600 rpm and some HP and/or amp rating. That 3600 rpm is an important rating. That means that the motor just loves to spin at that speed and will do everything in its power to spin at that speed (this all has to do with how the motor works with your 60hz AC power). When under no load. the motor will rev up to 3600 rpm and just stay there with little current draw. 
So what happens when you add a little load? 
As you might expect the motor rpms will start to dip below that 3600 rating, but at the same time the motor starts drawing more current and increasing its torque as if its trying to get back to that 3600 rpm speed it so loves. What's interesting is that even at maximum load the the rpms are reduced by only 5% from no-load rpm rating. 
So now what happens if we try to overload the motor? 
Well the only thing it can do is to keep increasing its current draw
until it either can get the rpms up or draw so much current that the wires inside overheat and trip some kind of protection or just melt through. 
If they all spin at 3600 rpm what's the difference between a 1.5 HP motor and a 150 HP motor? 
Essentially, the amount of current they *can* draw (and subsequent torque that it produces). Bear in mind the amount of current that it *will* draw is dependent entirely on the load. If I give a 150 HP motor just 1 HP of work to do, how much power will the motor produce? .... just 1 HP.

Now let's relate this back to DC's. The load that a DC places on it's motor is directly dependent on the size of the impeller and the static pressure of the whole system. If you take a whole DC system and replace just the motor with another 3600 rpm motor, you get exactly the same output so long as the motor can handle that load. Remember, the motor will not turn any faster (+/- 5%) so obviously it can't produce any more or less cfm.
The only way to get more cfm w/ a 3600 rpm motor is to either reduce the static pressure or increase the size of the impeller.

So now let's take a 3600 rpm motor and stick an undersized impeller on it. Measuring only the cfm, can you now make any guess as to the HP rating of the motor? ... No. Its analogous to measuring the HP of a Ferrari engine by the top speed the car goes in 1st gear. And that's exactly what some people are doing when they look at the HF cfm output and try to guesstimate the HP of its motor. If anyone really wants to know the HP rating of the motor, then they need to load it up until the thermal protection kicks in, then back it off until it doesn't.

Is it financially worthwhile to make these mods instead of buying a system that already has the right properties? I think it depends on what properties you want and what you can manage to buy used. If you want to have .5 micron or less filtration, then you can't avoid going to Wynn Environmental and getting their filters or one of their distributors like clearvue (which is more like buying the parts separately). So if you're planning to toss the bag anyways, the question then becomes how can I get the most motor and impeller for the lowest price. For me, getting the HF DC housing and motor for $139 using a coupon was the cheapest. Adding another $100 for the impeller still makes it one of the cheapest options available.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

> Do you really thinks that a large company would risk sticking a 2HP label on a 1.5HP motor in this lawyers infested country ?


Why not, they put 6HP stickers on shop vacs.


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> There s a lot of misconception of what the HP rating of a DC means and how it actually relates to its performance and its motor.
> 
> First of all lets make sure we all understand how the induction motors on these DC s work. A typical motor is rated at 3600 rpm and some HP and/or amp rating. That 3600 rpm is an important rating. That means that the motor just loves to spin at that speed and will do everything in its power to spin at that speed (this all has to do with how the motor works with your 60hz AC power). When under no load. the motor will rev up to 3600 rpm and just stay there with little current draw.
> So what happens when you add a little load?
> ...


The motor power is not measured on the dust collector. A motor is a separate thing that often (always ?) is produced by a different company in volumes much higher than the production volume of dust collectors. So the same motor is used in different machinery.

There is a standard how to measure motor output power. It is a stand with some kind of a brake usually electromagnetic of hydraulic. A motor is set on the stand in a way that the only point of contact is the brake and some support on the other end of the motor, usually a cone that goes into a center hole in the shaft. There is also an arm of certified length connected perpendicular to the motor axis. The other end of the arm rests on again certified scale.
During the motor test they turn on the motor and apply brakes to the point they get to the designed output power. It is easy to do as the power s a direct outcome of toque ( which is measured by the scale) and the motor speed. Induction motor speed depends very little on the load, which is handy. Contrary to the statement in the post above it never runs at 3600 rpm on a 60Hz circuit. The reason is that the rotor must receive electric energy from somewhere to maintain its magnetic field and it receives it from the stator by running slower than the rotating electromagnetic field of the stator. The latter ( stator electromagnetic field does rotate at exatly 3600 rpm). This interaction is much more complex than it looks. It takes to solve about 800 equations to calculate these fields.

Once they achieve the nominal power they measure electric current ( those 15A you see on the label) and the temperature. If the motor is overpowered it must work harder to achieve the same torque (power) so it starts drawing more current and as the result starts overheating. The working temperature of the motor is limited by the copper winding insulation, most general use motors these days use category "F" insulation which is 155C. Once the motor goes beyond that it is not allowed to be manufactured.
This procedure is followed not only at the manufacturing plant but also in the shops that repair the motors.

So it is very easy to catch someone on misrepresenting the specifications of a motor.

Source: Designing induction motors at a motor plant for 15 years .


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> Why not, they put 6HP stickers on shop vacs.
> - Ger21


It is a peak power not the constant power, whatever it means.


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## jakep_82 (Feb 1, 2012)

> So it is very easy to catch someone on misrepresenting the specifications of a motor.


Unless there is a regulatory agency actually testing imported motors, I don't see how they could get caught.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

The most power you will ever theoretically get out of a piece of equipment that operates on 115V on a 15A circuit is 2.3 hp and that assumes the piece of equipment is 100% efficient, which it is not.


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> The most power you will ever theoretically get out of a piece of equipment that operates on 115V on a 15A circuit is 2.3 hp and that assumes the piece of equipment is 100% efficient, which it is not.
> - patcollins


The manual says it is 20A. There is a suspicious word "peak" which I assume is applied to the current not the power.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> The manual says it is 20A. There is a suspicious word "peak" which I assume is applied to the current not the power.
> - 716


1HP = ~746 watts at 100% efficiency - which is impossible 

Here are some good tables to reference current vs HP from engineeringtoolbox.com :

Electrical Motors - Hp and Amps

Electrical Motor - Full Load Current


Cheers,
Brad


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> The most power you will ever theoretically get out of a piece of equipment that operates on 115V on a 15A circuit is 2.3 hp and that assumes the piece of equipment is 100% efficient, which it is not.
> - patcollins
> 
> The manual says it is 20A. There is a suspicious word "peak" which I assume is applied to the current not the power.
> ...


So 3.0 HP, most standard outlets are on a 15 amp circuit though and the breaker will pop after a couple seconds of exceeding 15A.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

716,

I think you misunderstood the point of my comment. My point was that when woodworkers say "Hey that's really a 1.5 HP DC" and another says "Your wrong the motor plate on it says 2 HP", this causes much confusion. Manufacturers created this confusion by marketing their DC's using HP numbers which only represented the HP rating of the motor not the actual performance of the DC itself. Then when people tried comparing DC's from one manufacturer to another, they needed a way to group them into classes and since everybody was using HP in their product descriptions that became the way to classify them.

So when someone says the "HF DC is really a 1.5 HP DC", what are they saying?
- I think the original author of that statement meant that the HF DC's performance falls in the range/class of DC's that typically have 1.5 HP motors. It does NOT mean that the HF DC's motor is a 1.5 HP motor (as some on this thread seemed to believe).

Also pointing out irrelevant inaccuracies in my intentionally simplified explanation of induction motors does not help this discussion in any way. If the inaccuracies would have changed the conclusion drawn, then yes its important to point them out, but I feel you're just doing it to take a cheap jab at my credibility.


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## Rhinoc (Aug 13, 2014)

Can anyone help me with an HF DC problem. For some unknown (at least to me) reason, the inlet is blowing AND sucking air at the same time. It's like 50% of the inlet is sucking in while the other half is blowing out. I would think that's impossible but then I remembered it's a HF.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

Rhinoc,

You'd probably do better starting a new topic in general, you might get more looks as many people won't wade through this thread with all the old posts to see your question.

But your initial thoughts are right, it can't actually be flowing air in both directions through the inlet during normal operation. But you could have a clog or some type of blockage either inside the inlet or inside the actual blower housing which could be redirecting some air flow. Look inside the inlet and remove the outlet hose and look down in the the blower housing.

Mike


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## TheFalconJetDriver (Aug 20, 2017)

Mike,

I am guessing but I think Rhinoc is yanking someone's chain. However your answer is the most plausible it is really happening the way he states.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

Just to follow up and for anyone else who might see this later, Rhinoc started a new thread and this was his final post:



> gmakra nailed it. When I installed the vent, I used a dryer vent. It had a screen on it to keep critters out. And the screen was enough to clog up the flow of air. I removed it and it now works fine. Thanks for all the help.


Though I'll take credit for pointing out it was probably a blockage 2 days before the other guy. 

Mike


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## Jc2470 (Dec 5, 2017)

Hp rating on power tools / shopvacs is startup hp, it isnt true hp. As for the hf it is a 1.5 at best but as sarif said it doesnt really matter. 1.5 hp is usually the biggest u will ever get on a 110v, some might go to 1 3/4 hp but that is kinda rare. No matter what dont exceed a continuous load over 80% of ur circuit breaker, if u do it will burn it prematurely, upgrade it if u are over 80%.

As for the other guys, that make the statement that if u want a good performing dust collector buy one, that upgrading and modding doesnt make it as good, couldnt be more wrong. A cheap car can be modded and upgraded to beat a lamborghini without that super high price tag.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

I'm neither a HF fan nor hater, some items are good and some are not, so you have to do your homework. But one thing that gets me is the whole "the HF DC motor is really 1.5HP, not 2 HP". I actually did some testing on my HF setup and have copied in the info from the other thread below.

My findings were that the HF motor is 2HP (baed on electrical current draw) at max load (most air movement), *BUT*, in the stock config, the system is choked down (less air flow) so that actual power demand on the motor is lower and the motor only draws current to deliver about 1.5 HP of work.

So if you want to say the HF DC has the equivalent performance of a good 1.5HP collector then I won't argue, but saying the motor is "really" a 1.5 HP motor is not helping anyone.

-From the other thread-
I'll contradict what some other say slightly on the HF dust collector being 1.5 HP. Like the OP, I'm looking to upgrade my DC system. I currently have the HF system with an upgraded felt filter bag and spent about an hour taking current draw measurements this weekend on my setup. I'll cover what I found below and obviously amp draw is not CFM, but they are related so I consider this qualitative testing.

It's important to remember that the performance of the system is subject to 3 basic things:
1. The size of the motor - how much total work can be put into the system
2. The size of the impeller - how efficiently that work can be converted to air movement
3. The system losses - generally friction losses on both the intake and exhaust side.

So let's start with the motor, here are two scenarios (the numbers are rounded a bit to make it easy):
A. My system completely assembled with the 5" to 4" splitter, one blast gate open with 10 ft of 4" line draws about 9.9 amps at 115V for 1100 watts, so 1.5 HP in, so call it roughly 1 1/4 HP at the impeller with losses? This is with a seasoned felt filter bag which I did beat out a bit prior to the test. 
B. Disconnect the motor exhaust hose from the filter pan and let it blow straight, leaving the 10 ft of 4" hose on the intake and the system draw about 13.3 amps at at 112V for 1500 watts, right at 1.9 HP, so maybe 1.5 HP at the impeller.

So from this basic testing, the motor is definitely capable of delivering approximately 2HP of work and assuming the motor ratings are ok, can do so without burning out. But, the complete system is only capable of delivering about 1.25 HP of effective power in stock configuration. So the system performs like a quality 1.5 HP DC system, but the motor itself is not 1.5 HP.

I then followed up with a few additional tests
A. Exhaust hose not connected to pan, both 4" blast gates open, 10 ft of hose on the one side
B. Same as A, except no hose and both gates open.
C. Exhaust hose not connected to pan, 5" to 4" inlet splitter removed, essentially just the blower and outlet hose.
D. Exhaust hose removed, plastic rectangular to round adapter left on the blower outlet, 5" inlet splitter removed.

All four of these tests basically produced between 13 and 13.6 amps at about the same voltage, So my conclusion is that this is the practical limit for this impeller/motor combination. I also did a few additional tests were I put different bends in the exhaust hose (180 deg, 90 deg) and different bends in the 10 ft 4" hose. None of those made much difference overall as with the 10 ft hose with a complete 360 turn and the exhaust hose bent in a 180 degree bend, I only got the amp draw down to about 12.7 amps.

So basically my testing says to me that I should focus on two areas, improving the air flow on the exhaust side and getting more of the available power into the system in the restricted condition.

For the first part, the biggest bang for the buck on the HF collector is to improve the flow on the exhaust side. Switching to a Wynn filter with it's much larger surface area would be an obvious improvement and a bolt on solution.

If someone was definitely going to add a cyclone style separator (SDD or other) I would also consider simply doubling the filter bags and using an additional filter bag in place of the plastic collection bag. This would essentially double your surface area. Now there are potential downsides to this if your cyclone doesn't work all that well, but might be a good option. I may consider ordering a replacement filter bag just to be able to see the effect on the amp draw.

To get more power into the system, this is where swapping to the Rikon impeller might be good. The larger impeller should essentially 'demand' more power from the motor which it should be able to provide. There have been a few posts showing the impeller change resulted in 10-15% higher current draw with everything else being the same.

Hopefully these number help and maybe other guys who have made some measurements can chime in. From some of the other posts, it seems like 9 to 9.5 amps is pretty typical for the stock HF unit.

Mike


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## WoodWiz1 (Aug 3, 2018)

I was told by rikon that the impellers are available in limited stock on their parts website.
https://www.rikonparts.com/product/60-200


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## j2dawson (Feb 14, 2016)

Apparently the impellers are still available as I ordered one yesterday.


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## SweetTea (Aug 5, 2016)

So the Rikon impeller is $99? I might have to order one to try out. If it works ok then I will order another one for my other HF collector. Does anyone know if the Rikon comes with the key? Or will the stock Harbor Freight key work?

Also, with regards to improving the exhaust performance..would having the exhaust hose piped outside using a 5" hose with no filter be the tip top way to improve exhaust performance? How much improvement over stock would adding a much taller upper filter bag
and converting the plastic bag into a filter bag add?


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

> Also, with regards to improving the exhaust performance..would having the exhaust hose piped outside using a 5" hose with no filter be the tip top way to improve exhaust performance? How much improvement over stock would adding a much taller upper filter bag
> and converting the plastic bag into a filter bag add?


Piping the exhaust outside with the fewest bends possible will almost always yield the best performance. You will have to make sure that any makeup air isn't the result of backdrafting any fuel burning appliances like a gas water heater. Otherwise you could be filling you workshop with deadly carbon monoxide. Also note that any makeup air is not likely to be conditioned so if you are exhausting conditioned shop air your cost to maintain the same conditions will go up. Adding more filter area will also improve performance, but you still need to clean the filters from time to time. You can cobble together a diy manometer to give you a sense of how clogged the filters are and then you only need to clean once it gets to a certain point.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Today I installed the Rikon impeller on my HF dust collector. It took me about 45 minutes and was an easy change. Hardest part was lifting the heavy motor/ blower unit off the top of my super dust deputy. I can tell the difference in the startup, it cranks up slower. Before the startup amp spike was about 70A, now it's about 75A and the spike last longer. I was holding my breath waiting to see if the breaker was going to trip (20A breaker), but it didn't. Running amps before was about 9.5A, now it's 10.8A. This is with a 4" 10ft hose connected with nothing attached to the hose. Without any scientific measurements I can tell there is a fairly good increase in the suction. I guess the increased suction was worth $117. It was one of those things I did because I could, not because I really needed too.


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## Lasor1 (Dec 31, 2018)

Hey there knowing this is an older thread has anyone had good luck with the impeller upgrades?


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## Rockiesfan (Nov 8, 2014)

Lasor1
I'm one of the guys who has done the impeller upgrade. Just go back to comment #39 to see my results. There are some others as well. Also comments #41 and 43.


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## Mike_D_S (May 3, 2012)

Lasor1,

From perusing the forums, a lot of people have had good luck using the rikon impeller in the HF setup.

But you might want to think it over. In my case, Jet 1.5HP collectors with filter canisters show up semi-regularly on CL for about $300. So when I balanced the $75 I could get selling the HF collector with the $125 for the new impeller and my time to install I decided to just wait and go with a used Jet.

Mike


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

I wouldn't ignore the hassle of going through 2 CL transactions (one to sell and one to buy). IMHO the hassle of dealing with ppl on CL (who are frequently flaky) is worth about $100 per transaction to me. All things being equal, I would prefer to spend my time tinkering/modding my DC than spending the equivalent time working with buyers/sellers, figuring out times to meet, haggling, scheduling my day around appointments, etc.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I have a Delta DCwith a burned up motor. I may either swap the delta impeller into the HF or maybe put the HF motor on the delta. We'll see.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Is the Rikon 60-200 the *only* DC with a drop-in replacement impeller for the HF? I find it a little surprising given these things are usually OEM purchased and used by several manufacturers (think 14" bandsaws, etc).


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