# I may have impulse-bought a lathe



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

i was watching an online auction tonight because there was a scroll saw and a few other items in which I was interested. I also noticed that there was a Rockwell lathe up for auction, so I put it on my watch list and threw out a lowball bid of $115. With 7 minutes left to go, someone finally outbid me… but by that time I had become enamored with the idea of winning this lathe for super cheap. End of story is that I bought it for $200, sight unseen. The problem is that, aside from some time on a metal lathe in college, I know nothing about turning.

From what I can tell, I need a faceplate, a tool rest, and some tools in order to start using this thing. Am I missing anything? Is there anything specific I should look for when getting these things? Or any sources I should check out? Thanks guys!

The following is all I know about my recent purchasing frenzy:
"Rockwell Wood Lathe, 10" Swing x 38" Centers, Series #: 46-451, S/N: 1712842, Variable Speed From 340 Rpm to 3200 Rpm, Currently Set Up for 3 Phase Power Operation, but Included is a New 3/4 HP Dayton Motor to Convert it Over to Single Phase Power Operation"


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

1977 model with a reeves drive. You can make your own faceplates if you get an appropriate sized tap. Missing tool rest and banjo and you will need some kind of center for the tailstock. Some turning tools will also be needed, which you can make yourself or buy. The Dayton motor may or may not be a direct replacement depending on frame type and shaft size. Might consider getting a VFD instead and just running it on 240v. I'm sure you will get a lot of suggestions on what and where to get stuff.

Cheers,
Brad


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

what would be the benefit of putting it on a vfd? It already had speed control. Is the reeves drive difficult to use?


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Depends on the motor that's in the thing and if/how easy it might be to swap out with that Dayton. 3 phase motors are much more dependable (no centrifugal switch or capacitor), and with a VFD, you get some added benefits you won't get with a single phase motor. You will also most likely need to rewire for the single phase motor if you swap them, as I doubt the existing starter would be compatible. Just an option to keep in mind.

Cheers,
Brad


----------



## Bill7255 (Feb 23, 2012)

depends on the hp of the 3 phase. 3/4hp will work, but on the small side. One of the benefits of the VDF is you can vary the rpm in addition to the reeves drive. I have a old PM 90 and I went ahead and converted it to a single phase 1 hp. That was because the 3 phase was only 1 hp and I would have lost hp running it. I get by with the 1 hp, but I wish I would have went with 2 hp.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

I also thought that 3/4 hp seemed on the small side. what is the ideal size motor for this size lathe? I think it is actually be a 12" swing rather than the 10" mentioned in the description.

Does anyone know if there is a difference between the 46-450 and the 46-451? I'm finding tons of info on the 450, but almost nothing on the 451. From pictures, they look pretty much identical.


----------



## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

I think you got a very good deal. Heavy cast iron bed good base should be stable. It's always good to keep your options open. Mounting the new motor and rewiring for single phase will probably be cheeper than the vfd. I wouldn't worry about the power. I am running my lathe with a 1/3 HP motor and works fine. Sometimes have to back off the cut a little but that keeps me from taking off too much too fast which is very easy to do. This is a very good lathe to get started with.


----------



## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

I would not worry about the motor situation right now. Finding a tool rest base (banjo) and tool rest probably more important. After market accessories like faceplates and live centers easy to find. Do not see a live center in the tailstock.

If not mistaken that lathe has a 12" swing verus 10" but not sure about gap.

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/turning-and-carving/delta-46-541-lathe-question

Getting a tool rest base not easy but you need that & tool rest before can use the lathe. Tools rest & live center no problem.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-Milwaukee-Rockwell-12-Lathe-Tool-Holder-for-1-Posts-Banjo-CBL-425-1160-/291525565663?hash=item43e0471cdf

Good luck with it.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks for the links Bill! The fine woodworking link answered several of my questions.

$100+ for the banjo hurts. I'll have to look around for that one.


----------



## BobHall (Nov 18, 2014)

Great machine and good price. I'd probably go with the new single phase motor unless you luck into a good deal on a VFD and sell which ever one is left. Here's a link to the Vintage machine site with the manual for your lathe.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3667

You can join WWW.OWWM.ORG (free) for access to their selling list. These parts a common, but not cheap! On that site also you'll find a wealth of information and some really nice "old arn" guys who can explain ANYTHING.

http://OWWM.ORG


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

What is in the box on the pallet under the lathe? Might be some missing parts?

You may already know this, but if you keep the Reeves drive, never move the lever without the motor running. We had one of these in our tech school shop, and one of the students damaged the Reeves system by cranking on the lever while the motor was off.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

In the box is just the 3/4 HP motor that is mentioned in the lot description. I'm holding onto a glimmer of hope that there are a few parts back in that half cabinet behind the pegboard.


----------



## JulianLech (Jan 13, 2011)

$200 is a very good deal. As others mentioned; OWWM.ORG is a good source for finding old parts. Another possibility for a banjo is Harbor Freight Tools. You can buy lathe parts from HF via the internet. With some cleaning and maybe repainting it will be like new.


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Just a WAG, but I wonder if this started out as restoration job that somebody lost interest in?

The tailstock is either been repainted or is off a different lathe (Delta was grey).

It is also possible the included Dayton motor was purchased because 3-phase power wasn't available to the previous owner. Most residential areas don't have 3-phase power available, so installing a single phase motor would make some sense if this lathe was to be used in a home workshop.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Julian, I see that HF sells the lathe tools and live centers (will any live center fit in that tail stock?) but I don't see anything like a tool rest or banjo. Do I need to look for a section dedicated to parts for their machines?


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Gerry, I bet you're right. Pretty sad attempt at a restoration though. The gunk isn't even cleaned off.

I'll be sure to post on owwm. I have an account therethere because most of my equipment qualifies as arn. I just didn't remember seeing much discussion of lathes over there, so I came here first.


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I have a old PM 90 and I went ahead and converted it to a single phase 1 hp. That was because the 3 phase was only 1 hp and I would have lost hp running it.
> - Bill7255


A common misconception about using a VFD is loss of HP… you don't. You will lose about 1/3 HP using a static phase converter, but not a VFD or RPC. In addition, with the VFD, you can actually overdrive the motor giving you a bit more grunt if needed. And the soft start/variable speed features are nice for large pieces where you can start it off really, really slow and ramp up until you start to get vibration (for initial roughing of the piece). About $120 for a 1hp machine, and you can find them even cheaper if you are willing to take your chances on an unknown brand asian import.

If you do go the VFD route, you can mount it where your existing starter is now (you won't need it with the VFD)... and sell the 3-phase starter and the Dayton motor to recover the cost of the VFD… so it could be a no cost solution for you.

Cheers,
Brad


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Ah, I hadn't considered the soft start capability of a vfd. That could definitely be handy. I was thinking I would finally bite the bullet and go for the full RPC. My table saw is currently running through a static converter and I've been wanting to switch to rotary for a while…


----------



## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

If you find out what taper you head stock and tail stock are (#2 morse maybe) you can get centers pretty cheap.


----------



## JulianLech (Jan 13, 2011)

Jon, go to the HF website and look up their lathe. From the lathe page there is a link to the manual. There is a page in the manual that has all the parts numbered and listed. You can order via phone. I ordered a tool rest after checking out a store model to confirm sizes. The live center is probably a #2 morse taper; very common.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I believe VFDs are fairly expensive. If not careful, pretty soon you'll have enough invested that you could have just bought a new variable speed lathe.


----------



## Bundoman (Jan 18, 2014)

I just installed a Teco VFD on my PM90 Powermatic this spring. Mine ran about $115.00 and the install was very easy. My lathe in now running on 115 volt single phase power and is turning a 1 hp three phase motor. I have 3 phase power in my shop and the lathe worked fine that way but the additional soft start and nearly infinite speed adjustment have been a very nice addition to this tool plus if I ever move away from my three phase shop, I am good to go.


----------



## gad5264 (Sep 13, 2007)

I can confess, it is easy to get sucked into being the high bidder, I think it's a pride thing. But look at it this way, I bet more than one of us has spent $200 on alot less worthy piece of equipment.


----------



## daddywoofdawg (Feb 1, 2014)

If you have a welder friend or shop around making a tool rest isn't a big deal.and check the bay.
this guys may have your answers,and I know one of then does have like 6 PM lathes for sale cheap and may have a tool rest for you.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/375083072535895/


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

So on the VFD question… I think I will sell the replacement motor and use the cash towards a VFD. I'm looking at a used VFD, model shown in the attached link. Problem is that I'm not sure it is what I want. Can all VFDs convert 1 phase to 3 phase?

The specs shown on the link say it needs a 3 phase input. Am I looking at the wrong class of converter or something?

http://www.deltaacdrives.com/delta-vfd022m23b-y/


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

I went to the site you linked, and found this one.
Delta Products
AC Drives, VFD-B Series
ITEM # VFD022B21A-3
MFG # VFD022B21A-3
Series VFD-B
Drive, AC, 3Hp *Single Phase 230V Input*

I think it's funny that they only show what power input is needed, but not what the output is. Also, most knowledgeable electricians could tell without hesitation what the requirements are for the use of this VFD.

I was totally confused on which VFD to get for my lathe 5 years ago, so I eventually went with a Hitachi X2002 series from Direct Warehouse. Their ad had pretty much all the answers I needed. The cost was $280. If you know any electrical engineers, get one to help you with making up a remote switch for on/off, forward/reverse, and emergency stop..

Hooking up a VFD is pretty much a simple operation, but you need to know what is required coming in and going out. Delta leaves what's coming out out… ........... Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Weird, I'm showing 3ph input.

ITEM # VFD022M23B-Y
MFG # VFD022M23B-Y
Series VFD-M
Drive, AC, 3Hp, *230V Three Phase Input*

Anyway, I guess I'll keep looking for one that specifically states single phase input.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

If you look at the item/mfg numbers I posted, they are different than the item/mfg numbers you posted. Go to the link you posted, click on it, and scroll until you find the vfd with the numbers I posted. There still isn't an output voltage listed….. Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

You never did say what size that 3-phase motor is (in amps)... but if it's a 1HP or less, you have the option of using either single phase 240v or 120v input. There are VFD's that will accept either single or 3 phase 240v input, and some that will only take 3 phase input (like the one linked above).

Cheers,
Brad

PS: If I'm reading it correctly, that Delta VFD does state it's output.. just in an obscure way. Rated output is 3hp (meaningless) or 10 amps. The one Jerry pointed to is 3hp 11 amps.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Unix, thanks! That is the info that I was looking for. Interesting to know that I could use 120v input with smaller VFDs. I was planning on using 220, but if I can save one of my 220 circuits for something else, I might give it a shot.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Jon, if you're the only person working in your shop, you don't need a separate 220 for each tool, unless you're a darn good at multi tasking. ......... Jerry (in Tucson).


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

The Saga continues…

I didn't want to spend twice as much on tools, faceplates, banjo, etc as I did on the lathe itself. So I was checking classifieds for lathes and asking if people would sell the accessories separately. I found tools here, a chuck there, but no Rockwell banjos, and everything seemed too far of a drive for one item.

Then I found a guy selling a powermatic lathe. I asked him about the tools and he said he had a whole bunch of Rockwell accessories from an old lathe. After talking for a bit he changed his tune and said he wanted to sell it all together with the lathe…

So now I have two lathes with tools and accessories for each and I have yet to turn a single piece. Now I have to figure out which to keep and which to sell. My wife says I have a problem.


----------



## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Going on just what I see in this pic, I'd keep the Powermatic.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

The powermatic is definitely the heavier of the two. I have faceplates and toolrests for each. The only problem with the PM is that the minimum speed is 1000rpm. If I'm roughing something over 5" in diameter, I don't think I want to be anywhere close to that speed. A vfd will only take me so slow without losing all of the torque.


----------



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

You should get full torque with a VFD until you exceed the motors design frequency (60hz), at which time you will begin to lose torque. You will not get full HP until you reach the motors design frequency (60hz) and beyond.










The only consideration when running below design speed is overheating… particularly on TEFC motors, since the fan will not be moving as much air at slower speeds. As long as you don't run it way slow for a very long time, that shouldn't be a problem.

Cheers,
Brad


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Brad, I'll admit that the intro to electrical engineering course was one of my least favorite in college, so I probably forgot/purged a lot of it. I guess i had the relationship backwards. Thanks for the chart, very clear!

In that case, the only real advantage that the Rockwell holds is that I now have two steady rests for it… but I think I'd rather have all the beefiness of the Powermatic.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

^also, if I can avoid it, I would rather not move the powermatic again. Getting it out of the bed of my pickup was quite the process.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Powermatics are more collectable and will fetch a better price.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Oh, and if anyone can help me identify what these things are, I would appreciate it. They came with the pile of accessories, but either don't fit these lathes or are simply unidentifiable to me.

The faceplate seems to be correct diameter for the Rockwell, but is threaded the wrong direction?

The wrench and pulley cover obviously go to a different model of Rockwell, but I have no idea which model.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Jon, that pulley cover looks a lot like if I had one should look like. Hehehe. I would need to see end profiles to know if it is for a DM 1460.

The face plate might be for outboard turning. Mine are threaded both right and left hand, so will go on either end of my spindle.

The wrench looks like one for a Delta Milwaukee Homecraft tool rest.

The 2 things look like they are arbor adapters for buffing wheels, grinding wheels, wood discs or whatever you could use them for. It looks like they should go onto the Delta spindle.

The Morse Taper looks like a #2. I can't tell if the right hand end of it is round or square. If it's round, it could be a JT33 taper, used on a lot of drill chucks. If it is a MT2 JT33, all you need now is a good chuck to match the JT taper. If it's not round, good luck….......... Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Jerry, I think you're right about the pulley cover. I just looked up some pictures of the 1460 and it looks like a match. I'll take another photo from another angle tomorrow. PM me if you want it. A few bucks and shipping will get it to you.

The morse taper thing turns out to be an adapter for the Beall buffing system. I'm missing the "combination adapter" that goes between this part and the buffing wheel. I might not bother getting the other adapter. There was a Jacobs chuck with all of the goodies, so I could just chuck the buffing wheels up with that.


----------



## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

The centers should be standard Morse tapers. Morse tapers are used in both metal and wood lathes. You can purchase them from any major woodworking store or machine supplier, Just Google "Morse taper center" and you will find a world of suppliers. Your lathe most likely takes a #2 size Morse taper. Also, be aware that there are Morse taper adapters for things like a 1/2" drill chuck got your tailstock (drill chucks use a Jacobs taper to mount, so you would buy an adapter with a Morse taper at one end and a Jacobs taper at the other end). Note that these "tapers" come in different standard sizes so you will have to be sure to match the Jacobs taper size to the drill chuck.


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

Jerry, here's the pulley cover from another angle.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Jon, if that diameter at each end is 3 3/4", consider it spoken for. Now, lets dicker in pm's or [email protected] hehehe… Jerry (in Tucson)


----------



## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

I bought a used vfd for the lathe. I can do the wiring, I'm just wondering if I need any of the existing electrical components still on the lathe.

Do I run the 220v power source straight to the vfd and then to the motor? Or do I keep the 3 phase starter on the lathe between my power source and the vfd?

Also, does anyone know the name of the 10-pin cable that connects the remote to the vfd? I need to search up one of those.


----------



## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Jon, the VFD should have it's own on/off switch. My thoughts are to remove the old switch, and wire the motor to the vfd. If you still have the Reeves drive, you will be able to achieve very low speeds for roughing. 
I got the cover on Thursday and it's the proper one. I'll never put it on, because I built one out of wood and a piece of flat steel where I have a magnet and light mounted. Thanks…......... Jerry (in Tucson)


----------

