# Expensive Hand Planes



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I come to this subject in, virtually, total ignorance. I confess that I am a power tool guy. I occasionally use a hand saw or a some chisels and I often sand by hand. Otherwise, I use power tools and I don't know much about established hand tools and hand tool techniques.

However, my interest in learning more is insatiable and I think learning more about hand tools would be a good thing.

It seems like in the world of hand tools, hand planes are held in a special reverence. It looks like you can buy reasonably good hand planes in the $50 - $80 range and better ones for around $100. However, there are hand planes on the market for $300 to over $500. The basic structure is always the same. It seems like the most important element is the iron and they are replaceable.

Out of total ignorance let me ask - What is it that makes a $500 plane worth that much more than a $100 plane?

As an FYI - I just bought (for the heck of it) a used Stanley 5 1/4 jack plane on e-bay for less than $35 (including shipping). It looks to be in like new condition. I sharpened the iron and it seems to work great. What would be different if I spent 15 times more.


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

I ask that same question to myself all the time. I use the older planes that I pick up at flea markets and antique stores for about $10. I go through and restore them the best that I can and they work great. I'm not sure why I would need to spend $200 on a new one.

I'm interested to see what others think.


----------



## MedicKen (Dec 2, 2008)

Handplanes are no different than any other tool, you are mostly paying for the name. A lie-nielsen will be more expensive due to they are hand made, with exception of the casting and machining. The older planes, stanley, record, etc are not the same quality as today, they are far superior and will command a higher price. The age and condition of a vintage plane, as well as rarity, will also dictate price. All of my planes are Stanley and in the 1940-50 vintage and have new Hock blades and chippers. I wouldn't trade them for a lie-nielsen if given the chance, I don't see the point.


----------



## BertFlores58 (May 26, 2010)

Hi Rich,
Actually there is really big money involved in plane making. Take a look on this link ... there are more much expensive than this site.

Honestly, the most important parts of the plane are the blade and sole. May it be a wooden body, an infill, or a metal casted body… the blade must be really sharp and stay sharp. As you mentioned why it becomes so expensive…. The manufacturers or makers earns the quality making the cost high… same like making a jewelry box or any project that is made by a good boxmaker. I have my own handmade plane and it is very far from anywhere I can buy. It is customized as per my grip and the blade is hardened the way I want it. The material used is also important.

But to my disappointment … in some hardwares… you can find a terrible and useless plane that even for a dollar it is not worth…. Buyers will be fooled… But on same store you have another brand nicely sealed and 100 times worth.

I can conclude that buying handtools will be same in buying power tools… You need to have right specs of your need, the quality of makers product (there should be a little research) and most important accuracy of the functionalities. I denounce cost and price as one of the criteria for any tools… though this determines the budget.


----------



## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Functionally, no difference in my opinion either. But I'm a power tool guy too.  I'd suggest making your own Rich. You'd learn more about the plane that way.


----------



## docholladay (Jan 9, 2010)

Rich, the main thing you pay for when purchasing a Lie Nielsen or a Veritas plan is labor and perhaps a few more subtle improvements such as thicker iron, better fitting chip breaker, etc. When I say labor I mean that they have already done a lot of the tuning or the word Galoots like is "Fettling" of the plane. This involves things like flattening the sole of the plane, flattening the back of the iron, flattening the frog to blade mating surface, fitting the chip breaker to the iron and items such as this. A Lie Nielsen is ready to go right out of the box with nothing to do but to hone the iron just a bit. As for the 5 1/4, that is a good plane to have. It can be set for a heavy cut and used for fast stock removal and yet you can close up the mouth and set it for a fine cut and use it for smoothing work. The 5 series of Stanleys are the real workhorses of the shop. Next you will probably want to get a smoother which would be a 3 or 4 size. I like the number 3 although the number 4 is more common. Then you will possibly want to get a long jointer plane. Of course, no shop, power tool or otherwise is complete without a good low angle block plane. For this one, I personally think that it is well worth the $100-$125 for a high quality plane. Those 4 planes will handle 90 % of the work of hand planing. Anything beyond that is getting into either profiling (I personally still do this with a router) or joinery (shoulder and rabbet planes). I do use shoulder and rabbet planes some. In Stanley world, lean toward the Bailey or even more preferably the Bed Rock series planes. Stay away from the HandyMan planes. They were pretty cheeply made. The Bailey planes are pretty easy to come by. Bed Rocks are more rare (they were made in the late 1800's), but they are the most desirable both by collectors and users. They have thicker heavier castings and thicker more stable blades. Millers Falls & Fulton also made some very nice planes. Also, although a little trickier to learn to adjust and set up, I really love wooden planes. There is something about wood sliding on wood that just simply produces the best surface on the wood. You can see many fine examples of user made wooden smoothing planes right here on LJ's. The key with a wooden plane is to start with a good iron(blade). IM me if you have any specific questions. I don't claim to be an expert, but I have tuned up a few stanley planes with good success.

Doc


----------



## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

I would like to hear from some people who actually own a few or even one LN plane. I have one and it is in a word, amazing. What's interesting is that all the comments above are from non LN plane owners. I say LN because in the plane world you're looking at the best out there still selling new. I also have owned non LN planes and they virtually sucked comparatively. I'm not even sure why but like I say lets let the LN owners say because for me they are well worth the extra money… Can't knock em till you try em. This is not to say that the others are not good or can't be good. It's a learning process getting to know what is quality and what is not. You should do whatever makes you happy because if you are truly going to pursue learning about something you will find the road that leads you where you want to be.


----------



## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

I own quite a few LN planes and many older Japanese planes with laminated steel blades. There is a considerable difference in the feel and cut. I especially like the magnesium bronze planes in that they are heavier than steel ones and they have a natural lubricant in them. They glide over the wood differently. The blades are thicker and of higher grade materials. I also own some regular Stanley planes. They do get used once in a while. I suggest you go to a woodworking show sometime where LN has a display and try them out. As for the $1,000 and up planes. I have tried a couple of them and they are works of art. The feel is amazing. Again, it has to do with everything being in perfect tune. 
I remember while at a local woodworking show spending about an hour with well known craftsman Yeung Chan. We spent quite a while talking about hand planes. He was gracious enough to allow me to try almost every plane and tool he had with him at the show. I was particularly impressed with his small bronze low angle plane that he made himself. He did a great job on the design because it has a very good feel and cuts crisp and smooth. He also made all of the other tools in his case. They are quite comfortable.

Here is a link to his site. The tools are in the photo.

http://www.crfinefurniture.com/1pages/grads/chan/chanliltools.html


----------



## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

Rich,

DochHolladay hit it well. LN, Veritas, etc manufacture their planes to higher tolerances and quality which saves you time spent getting the plane to perform properly. Soles are flat and don't require lapping, frogs and their mating surfaces are ground precisely and don't require fitting, the blades are thicker than standard issue Stanley, Record, etc. They are also flat on the non-bevel side and although not quite sharp enough for use, only require a micro-bevel out of the box. I have a LN plane and mine came exactly as described. Took it out of the box, inspected it, and only had to work the blade before use. I polished the back and put a micro bevel on it and put it to work. Big time saver for sure as anyone who has ever lapped a jack plane sole will tell you. I don't think you pay for the "name" per se, you pay for the work that went into manfacturing the tool by that company.

The 5 1/4 plane you purchased is probably from the time when Stanley manfactured their planes with quality in mind. And it was taken care of during it's lifetime. What would be the difference if you spent 15 times more? In performance: NONE. Most of my planes are old Records and they are just as good as any others out there once they were tuned and set up properly. A new LN or Veritas would have saved time on that process, but would not perform any better than my old ones once they were ready to work.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I was told a few days ago that Stanleys made before WWII have brass screws in the knob. After WWII, they were steel. Is that true?


----------



## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Rich - I have several good quality older planes (Record, Bailey, Millers Falls), but haven't yet made the plunge to the modern high end LN or Veritas planes. The planes I have seem to suit my needs pretty well. That's not saying I wouldn't appreciate better planes, but I'm just not there yet. Like any tool, setup and cutters dictate the end performance. I do know that planes like the LN basically come ready to use out of the box, or close to it…they also hold their value really well.

TmaxSurvivor - I don't think that statement's true in absolute terms. Some things may have started to get cheapened post war in some of the Stanley planes, and there may be some post war Stanley planes that had steel knob screws, but some also had brass screws well into 1960's. Like many brands, Stanley had a couple of different lines that had different quality levels. Rexmill.com/Type Study


----------



## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

Topamax, I have three Stanley hand planes, two from before WWII. Both of those have brass screws in the knobs. This picture shows the No.7 from 1880's and one from the 40's or 50's i believe, the other pre WWII one isn't in this shot but is brass. But you can clearly see its brass screws in these two knobs.










Rich, I'm not positive as I only own old Stanley hand planes, but from what I've heard, the difference is really about the state that it comes in brand new. The newer cheaper planes might not have a perfectly flat sole or 90 degree sides, or the mouth and frog might need some filing to get it flat whereas the LN's and other high ends are basically pre-tuned. I could be wrong though but thats what I've heard about the difference between cheap and expensive planes. I would love to try an LN though, maybe at the next woodworking show in Indy I'll get a chance since LN brings them for trying out


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm so impressed. So many of you were willing to take the time to provide some excellent information and I really appreciate it.

I just bought The Handplane Book by Garrett Hack and I am going to spend some quality time reading about tuning and using handplanes.

Thank you again.


----------



## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

Excellent book! The Christopher Schwarz one is really good too.

There are some very good videos too on tuning them on youtube and FWW online (some are free for non members).


----------



## Rileysdad (Jun 4, 2009)

Rich, one of the posts here advises you to build your own plane and I think that's good advise. I did it and I have a much better understanding of what the difference is between a rough tool and a precision instrument. I built a 13" Krenov style plane which will take the slightest whisper of wood from an edge and leave the face of a board almost glossy. Way better than any of my Stanley/Baileys.

The book Making and Mastering Wood Planes by Davis Finck is a great book if you're thinking of building one.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I think building my own plane is a good idea. I've seen a few hand made planes and often thought "I could do that".


----------



## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

as mentioned, high quality planes mechanics work better, have less stutter, higher tolerances which allows the plane to work more efficiently and better. the materials are higher quality as well. not only the blade (which can always be replaced/upgraded)- but more importantly the frog assembly, the sole, and the body.

its like comparing a Honda Civic, and a BMW M5. both will get you from point A to point B, but the materials, construction, heftiness, smoothness of the ride will all be very different.


----------



## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

Great analogy purplev.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Purplev provides a good analogy and I appreciate it. However, I'll take the analogy a little further.

I once (before moving to Iowa) owned a $50,000 Mercedes E-320. I had a friend who had a $35,000 Buick. Feature for feature they were very similar cars. However, I had no trouble justifying the extra I paid for my M-B. The M-B costs approximately 40% more than the comparable Buick.

In the world of handplanes the premium brands are costing as much as 5 times more than their mid-level counterparts.


----------



## spclPatrolGroup (Jun 23, 2010)

I dont think anyoen mentioned this, but brass planes cost more than cast iron, due to just the material cost, and have the advantage of being easier to lap and flatten if you are going to use one a lot. I like veritas planes, it seems they are a good balance of performance\price.


----------



## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

This probably sounds silly, but it is worth something to me to support a great local company like LN - not to mention the thrill that I get every time that I use one of their tools.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

I see it this way , a little like purplev if it just to get from A to B once a month its okay with a Civic
and if I have to do it every day I proppely wuold have a mittelclass stationwagon 
but if I have to make my money in it (as I do) I would deffently go after a Mercedes-Benz or
simular price , I know the expencive car wont make more money day in and day out
but I wuoldn´t be cripled after a few years and I wuold have a better health every day

and then we have the women/man who see it as a hobby to have the car they drive in
and theese people don´t look at the costbenefit its more emotionel

and then you have those people who just have too much, ....well let them buy Karl Holtey planes


----------



## ChrisForthofer (Jan 1, 2010)

I own no hand planes but I think its like most anything we buy in life or in this hobby. Barring the outright junk, a well setup contractors saw will do nearly everything a high end cabinet saw will do from a cutting standpoint. The ease of adjustment, better ability to collect dust, more repeatable and some would argue better results come with the cabinet saw where as the contractors saw just gets the job done with a little more fussing along the way. Think of it this way, Volkswagon or Porche, both will get you there, one will do it with just a little more style and speed.

Chris.


----------



## woodspark (May 8, 2010)

A great rhykenology discussion! Glad you are taking an interest Rich! I see you have bought the Handplane book. I think you have already started the slide down the slippery slope! Enjoy! Might be that not to far in the distant future, you become an owner of a LN plane….;^)


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Div - You scare me because you might be right.

The next time I am at a woodworking show I am not going to just walk by the LN booth. In the mean time, I need to get some real experience with my more modest plane. Otherwise, I could not appreciate how much better an LN is.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Rich I think I can scare you even more with this
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/10061

before you know it you have build one of theese and sold the electric powered …...LOL

Dennis


----------



## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Rich, Have you ever used a Harbor Freight wrench and then used a Snap-on, or other high end wrench.
They both are "basically" the same thing, aren't they? That's pretty much the difference in hand tools.
The question becomes, what is a tool worth in *your* hands. With planes particularly, are you willing to spend a great deal of time tuning them, or do you want them ready to go out of the box. I have done both.
While it is very rewarding to take a piece of junk to a new level. I believe it will never be equal to a really quality tool. I have a $50 Anant that tuned up well and a $300 Clifton. The two don't come close in performance. Guess which one I reach for. If you have not experienced both ends of the spectrum, you might never really understand the difference. There is something about the way great tools feel in your hands, as well as how they perform the task. That's why I mentioned wrenches. Most people would understand the difference there.

The best way to make the choice is to actually try both and see for yourself. Unfortunately that's easier said than done.

All that said, I also have some really expensive planes. Are they really worth the cost difference? Probably not to most people, but I have never regretted those purchases. My attitude about my work goes to another level with those tools. Do I do a better job? In all honesty, I can't say that I do, but it sure is a joy to make the journey.

This question frequently comes up, and there is no right or wrong answer. It seems we all form our own opinions based on our personal experiences--Or maybe even just our pocket books. I think we all can justify whichever side we're on, and make a case for it.

By the way Rich, don't you have some Festool?
Need I say more?


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Kent - Yes, I have some festools and I knew that someone might bring that up. I also own 2 BMW motorcycles and, in the past, I have owned Mercedes-Benz cars (no more since I now live in Iowa). I appreciate quality.

I'm a good candidate for buying a high quality plane, but I am starting at ground zero. I'm not going to step up to a LN until I really understand what I am doing. I owned several lessor motorcycles before buying my first beemer and I owned many lessor cars before buying my first M-B.


----------



## TwangyOne (Apr 21, 2009)

Hey Rich, I'm by no means an expert at this either, but I have restored 3 old Stanleys myself. I saw a show in Indy by a Graham Blackburn, he's got 3 or 4 hand tool books on the market, and he explained that one big feature was the ability to adjust the opening without taking the plane apart. I know the old Stanley Bedrocks had the same feature, and thus another reason why those cost more. Basically from the back of the plane you could adjust the mouth opening I believe, just by turning a screw or two rather than take the blade off several times to set the gap. Just my 2 cents, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm off on the details. Personally, I love restoring an old tool to new glory, and then using that tool to continue the legacy.


----------



## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

Good luck with your new plane Rich, and that book will serve you well. Keep in mind that your jack plane is a workhorse. It doesn't need to be supper flat. Flat just in front of the mouth and such that it doesn't rock when you place it on a truly flat surface. (save the super flat for the smoothing planes) It was meant to take appreciable thickness shavings. If it had a soul it would bristle at the thought of someone using it to take transparently thin shavings with it. Camber the iron a wee bit and let it do its job of flattening a wood surface.


----------



## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

@Jim yes you are right about the bedrocks. The adjustment is a little easier and the machining of how the frog attaches to the bed is a more solid foundation.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

You guys (and gals) are great. Thank you so much for your excellent advice and insight.

Now - another dumb question. I've assumed that a jointer plane is intended perform the function of a power jointer. One of the primary functions of a jointer is to provide an excellent edge for gluing up some boards.

How does one know that they are getting a perfect (or close to perfect) 90 degree edge on a board when using jointer plane?


----------



## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

You can tell if you are getting a perfect 90 degree edge by checking it with a good square. It's really that simple, and that complicated.


----------



## UncleHank (Jan 13, 2010)

The difference… chances are very good that I will never own a $1,000+ plane.

Seriously, I'll take a year doing nothing with my spare time to learn the ins and outs of planes and spend $1,000 messing up good hardwood attempting to build my own, than spend a good chunk of a paycheck on such a simple machine.

At the very least I would learn a whole lot my way.


----------



## tdv (Dec 29, 2009)

Rich how are you doing, I have a collection of the required arnoury a low angle block / apron plane (Lie nielson bronze version)bought for me as a birthgay gift & it's great expensive for what it is but great. I have bought over the years a stanley rebate plane a circumference plane shoulder plane etc. you get the picture & they are all a standard issue Stanley or Record my Jointer plane is a Silverline (Cheap eastern brand) that looks like a stanley. I have done a little bit of flattening & squaring work on them all & honed the irons & I get shavings that are easily cut & you can read a magazine print through. Although I love my little lie nielson I get just as much pleasure using my other planes that cut so well & I get the satisfaction of knowing I made it work & I learnt how from places like Fine woodworking The Wood Whisperer & Lumberjocks. 
Best
Trevor


----------



## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

I have a decent collection of old hand planes, and love using them. I have tuned them to the best of my ability and they perform well. I recently decided to see if I would enjoy using a $350 plane any more than these, so I picked up a LN #4. I can say with full confidence that I like using the LN better than my old bedrocks, etc. I don't know that the advantages are worth the price differential, but man, that is a sweet plane. I put it through some tests, and wrote about the experience here if you care to take a gander: http://www.wwgoa.com/articles/product-reviews/lie-nielsen-bronze-no-4-bench-plane/


----------



## swirt (Apr 6, 2010)

"Now - another dumb question. I've assumed that a jointer plane is intended perform the function of a power jointer. One of the primary functions of a jointer is to provide an excellent edge for gluing up some boards."

No the power jointer is intended to perform the function of the jointer plane 

Like others have said, a tri-square will show you the way. A pair of winding sticks help too.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Swirt - Good point. The jointer plane did come first (by several hundred years).


----------



## uffitze (Apr 23, 2010)

Try a couple of thousand years Rich.

About making that edge square, remember that you can clamp the two boards your are joining together, and joint … that way a few degrees off of 90 doesn't matter … still want to have them straight though.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info I guess it is safe to say the brass knob screws are a bit higher quality, eh?


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Paul, I read your article. I sorry to say you may have nudged me over the edge )


----------



## BigTiny (Jun 29, 2010)

What models of beemers do you own? I'm a Goldwing pilot myself, an '84 Aspencade. To get back on topic, nobody seems to have touched yet on the TYPES of planes, regardless of maker. You wouldn't want to go trail riding on my 'wing, and a trip across the continent on a scrambler will buy your chiropractor a new 'cedes.
What do you want to DO with a plane? If all you're going to do is trim the occasional tenon to fit, any old Stanley or si,ilar will do. However, if you want to do some serious work with it, the type(s) of work will have as much to do with your choice as the brand. The best made, most expensive bench plane in the world (and they can run over $5,000 each!) won't do you any good if you need a rabbbet plane and vice versa.


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

BigTiny - I bought one of the first K1200LT sold (a '99) and I still have it. I also own a '77 R100/7. That was the first liter bike BMW made. I'm only the second owner on the '77. The original owner and I have both taken meticulous care of this bike and, except for some paint fading, it is in near perfect condition. I sold my '95 Aspencade when I bought the K1200LT.


----------



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

John Steffen, i just picked up on your comment. I own several $1,000 planes. They are for sale and that is the price. No buyers yet )


----------



## toolchap (May 28, 2010)

Perhaps I am late but I am going to add my tuppence. Handtools to me are so personal that it defies the normal use of adjectives.

To shake the boat a touch here I must mention Karl Holtey, whose planes sell for around 2000-7000 pounds sterling. Now I will probably never own one for a number of reasons, most importantly that I would prefer to build my own version of precisely what I needed. Also at that price, the percentage improvement in performance is not proportional to the price difference. Many of you have spoken so much sense here and the common factor is what you need from a tool. I admire LN and veritas for re-entering the market with some good quality planes in the Stanley style to answer those who needed the great designs in a newer more attractive form…again personal to their taste.

I have an aquaintance who was trained in the UK under Makepeace and did a show with him once. Basically it was the retuning and sharpening of a plane and the one he chose was a 5 1/2. During the course of two days, he took the plane and probably in the space of about 8 hours, turned it into an instrument that humbled belt sanders in speed of smoothing a top and was an absolute pleasure to use. Whisper whistling shavings and crisp finishes in some of our problematic woods. Point here is that he did not go for appearance. The chap left much of the pock marks and dirt on the plane and concentrated on its dynamics.

Perhaps a long answer which in essence is this: Any stable casting, regardless of price, is the basis of a good plane. There is enough literature out there and enough shouting about what to do and how to do it.

The crux of price comes in the custom handbuilt, a luxury not many of us can afford. I choose to build exactly what I want and in fairness cannot say that any outperform any other planes because I handmade them carefully and used great materials. They just give me incredible pleasure to look at, hold and work with. That is a feeling no money can buy…..


----------



## Lochlainn1066 (Oct 18, 2010)

My advice to anyone starting with hand planes is to buy a good used Stanley. A #5 can be had for as little as $15 or so. Take it apart, clean it, restore it, then learn to sharpen it and fettle it. It will take a while.

There's no reason to buy a new plane if you aren't sure you are going to get into hand planes. A restored Stanley is much more affordable and very nearly as good as a new LN.

Good discussion!


----------



## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Since I started this topic 6 months ago I have learned a lot about hand planes and I now own several and I have even made one.

I was able to buy a like-new used LN at a reasonable price (by LN standards) but most of my purchases have been old Stanleys. I did manage to buy a "new" Record. It's at least 30 years old but it was still in the original packaging.

I'm very busy now on a major church project but when I get the chance, I want to clean up and tune up my four #4s and compare them head-to-head. They are my LN, Bedrock, Bailey and Record. They look very similar and they all have the same weight, bulk and feel but only the LN is tuned and sharp so, currently, that is the only one I use.


----------



## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

One good thing about buying lie nielson's or veritas is that you can pretty much sell them for almost what you got buying them new. Not a profitable investment but you will get your value I believe.


----------

