# Table saw suit nets $1.5 million verdict



## GlenGuarino (Feb 23, 2010)

I just read this article in my Woodshop News newsletter about a jury awarding $1.5 million to someone injured while using a table saw. It has a far reaching effect on companies, small businesses and schools using a non-SawStop machine.

Here is a link to the article
http://www.woodshopnews.com/component/content/article/125-april-2010-3rd/498908-table-saw-suit-nets-15-million-verdict

Glen


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## Wolffarmer (Jul 14, 2009)

Injured six fingers. If he was using the saw any where near correctly how did he get 6 fingers into the blade??


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

From what I have read on other threads on this site and elsewhere-
It sounds like he was kneeling on the ground - leaning over the saw-blade at maximum height - guard off.
In short-violating pretty much every safety precaution that I am sure was clearly printed in the saw's manual and SHOULD have been clearly explained to him before he was allowed to touch the saw.

If anyone was at fault here (other than the user himself) it was his employer who was neligent in training and supervision. BUT-- I guess they figured Ryobi had deeper pockets.


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## rep (Nov 20, 2009)

Hard to imagine what the jurors could have heard or been told that would make them (all?) think that Ryobi was at fault here? Kinda makes me less confident in the jury system.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

This is old news but everytime I see it I am shocked and angered by how far our society has gone towards blaming everyone else for someone's accident or for someone's own mistakes. This guy should have known better (He is solely responsible for his own acts)....For one….. no one is forcing him to do something that he feels is dangerous - just don't do it (if you get hurt it is you who are at fault - unless the machine comes apart or blows up…something of this nature). If an employer allows the situation to be dangerous as in this case then the employer is also contributing to the problem (contributory negligence). To allow an award against the tool manufacturer as in this case…sets extremely bad precedent. Danger is inherant in these types of tools (there is no way currently to make them absolutely safe). The tool did not cause the accident in this case (there was no negligent manufacturing or design - the machine didn't blow up or come apart) - the operator caused the accident by being unsafe… how can we be assigning the manufacturer blame when the user is negligent and the purchasing (employer) company contributes? Now it seems that they are to blame for not paying Saw Stop for their technology…why not blame the purchaser for not buying a Saw Stop? Pretty soon no one can make these tools because there really is no way to make them absolutely safe or to shoulder the liability for everyone's mistakes….No wonder all the manufacturing is leaving the US….why take responsiblity and liability for negligence you can't control or even foresee? These stupid juries that feel the manufacturer has bigger pockets are not considering the fact that all of us pay in this result - the companies pass on the cost to us (making the equipment out of range for hobbyists or individuals) or they go out of business and leave us fewer choices (if any) or they move their operations overseas where they have some shield from suit happy consumers…..Anyway, end of Rant.


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

Whether ya like it or not, tablesaws are going to get safer. We can debate the stupidity of the user to no end, but the fact remains that stupid people, reasonable people with stupid lapses, and very intelligent people all will continue to suffer injuries at the tablesaw. There will be lawsuits - some ridiculous and some slightly less ridiculous.

The more interesting question to me is…will companies be able to come up with an equivalent safety mechanism that doesn't infringe on Sawstop's patents, or will everyone be forced to license Sawstop technology or be forced out of the market?


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm definitely not against saws being made safer.
If a saw with SawStop style technology is available in my budget range when my current saw dies-I will definitely buy it.

I'm against this concept that we are all helpless victims of the big wicked manufacturers and retailers etc.
Nothing is ever 'my' fault. If I burn myself spilling coffee in my lap-or I get fat from eating too many burgers - or if I cut my fingers on a sawblade because-it was never my fault-- someone did that to poor helpless me and they have to be punished.

Come to think of it-that's not a bad philosophy after all-
I notice no where on these shoes or in shoe store is there a sign warning me to keep my laces tied or I might trip. So-if I leave them untied long enough-I should be able to sprain an ankle - and retire comfortably on the settlement.


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## fr8train (Dec 26, 2008)

I got into an argument with a guy when seat belt laws went draconian a while back…. I told him that there would be no end to the Nanny Whiney Whimpy State….. he argued with me, and tried to give me his Libertarian credentials….. he was wrong, and I was right….. I hate being right about stuff like this.

The list goes on….. I can imagine Congress "coming down hard" on these evil tool-producers…. Can't you hear the Three Stooges in speech after speech (Pelosi, Reid and aboma…. I can't even say his name without building up with gas!)?

Well, I hate to say it, but the new Socialized medicine will put restrictions on ALL of our toys….. (no health-care for you, sir…. you didn't follow gov't prescribed rules for operating that piece of equipment…. and you took off the gov't mandated safety devices….) Not to mention that this is a profitable extortion that these clowns have yet to hit… 1.5 million is chump change to the real thieves.

Sorry gentlemen, let's get back to cutting wood (while we still have trees that are allowed for this purpose!)

Bless You MyFathersSon and good luck with your plan…. I would just ask that you wait until the gov't takes over the shoe industry in this country….. then I will support you fully!


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

MyFathersSon - great idea! Lets get all of us together and file a class action multi million lawsuit…look out adidas….LOL

Pretty soon there will be so many safety precautions and signs on everything that you won't be able to see the product name. Look at the TV commercials for medicines….4 hours of side effects and cautions…makes you start thinking that the orginal problem is a walk in the park compared to the side effects of the drugs.

I was in my dentists office the other day and had to sign a document notifying me of all the stuff they might stick in my mouth…guess some shyster has figured out a way to sue over this.

Our education system is really failing us…People comming out of school are so dumb we need to warn them not to do stupid things that common sense dictates. Ok Mr. Phd - do you see that spinning metal thing on the saw? Well don't touch it, ok? You might get a booboo.


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## olddutchman (Aug 17, 2007)

Here We go again! I am sorry, it seems that the nut case that should not use power tools, because He, or Shes not qualified, gets a tub of money. The process is nuts also!!!


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## BreakingBoardom (Dec 18, 2009)

*live4ever*, it's not that anybody here is really against saws getting safer (cause I'm sure we'd all be ok with that), but with that comes a cost. Some (or most) of us can't afford Sawstops and we'd hate to have all saws mandate this technology and drive prices up. What drives most people crazy about this story is he sued a company for his own stupidity and lack of awareness. Now the way I see it, this accident can be directed related to the auto industry. I'm sure many more people die in auto accidents than from table saws yet we don't see this kind of stuff happening. This lawsuit would be like a man suing Honda after falling asleep and crashing his 1988 Accord and then saying it's their fault because they don't have luxury safety features that wake you up when you fall asleep (Like some high end, maybe Mercedes??, cars have). It's just ridiculous to think think the jury could side with this delusional man. I really hope this case is overturned.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

"Pretty soon there will be so many safety precautions and signs on everything that you won't be able to see the product name. " 
Reggie-
My current favorite example is one I have found on the back of several of these fold out sunshades made to cover your windshield while the car is parked--
*"Do not operate vehicle with sunscreen in place."*
I kid you not-look close next time I bet its there on yours too.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

I think the technology behind the SawStop is amazing-have since I first heard of it and at that time I greatly admired them. And really want to keep feeling that way.
I hope their r&d people can continue to refine the technology and bring the price point down to a level that it can reasonably be included on DIY and hobbyist level saws where it would seem to be the greatest value.
I hope that other companies would be motivated by the successes of SawStop to come up with their own variations.

What I don't like-and what I hope I am misreading-is the impression that SawStop is attempting to pressure the industry through government mandates and courtroom grandstanding-to do for them what they have failed to do on the open market.
I applaud the CPSC for thier comments that whatever regulation is written -it will not be written specifically to financially benefit a single company.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

I have seen some of those warnings on the sunscreens…Isn't it rediculous?....but the reason that it is there is due to some idiot actually doing this…and then suing because he/she was not warned. There are endless examples of these silly warnings.

I, being a safety nut, would never disagree about making something safer….but get real here….if you are stupid enough to try driving with the windshield shade in place…then I think that, like in nature, the world is better off without you. Any jury, that awards damages in this kind of case, also needs extermination….I just can't get my mind around rewarding stupidity?


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## live4ever (Feb 27, 2010)

I think it's easy to be critical of the jury, but I'm pretty sure if faced with a similar case, all of you might make a similar determination. Why? There are three things that are very very likely given the outcome of the case.

1) Via the legal process of "discovery," the plaintiff's attorney got access to documents of the saw company's cost-benefit analysis for including safety technology. As you might imagine, these facts were probably presented at a board meeting or something similar. Now, as you can also imagine, the company likely decided that the safety technology (Sawstop or otherwise) was too expensive to implement, and would hurt their bottom-line by x dollars. However, when a member of the general public is presented with the cold, hard numbers of how the saw company would lose x dollars of profit on every saw sale versus the man in front of them who lost his fingers, they are not likely to side with the company. I wouldn't be so quick to judge the jury - juries are, after all, made up of people just like you with access to all of the facts and information of the case. If a jury of twelve didn't hang on a case like this, there's more than common sense at work here. There was obviously some very damaging (read: distasteful) evidence presented and my hunch is it had to do with the economics of excluding the safety technology. The numbers probably ended up being like "SS technology would cause us to lose $4 of profit per saw." That's an easy sell for the plaintiff's attorney. "I'm sure Mr. X gladly would have paid $4 more for his saw to have kept his fingers." Bam. The technology would not at all cause the saws to be priced at what you guys think they'd be (i.e., Sawstop levels), and I'm pretty sure the evidence showed that for the jury to rule how it did.

2) The lawyers/representatives for the saw company were probably distasteful to the jury. If they were too cold, blunt, and crass, it becomes easier to rule against them. These types of things have huge impacts on trials. If you have ever served on a jury, you probably can understand this. When a person gets hurt, and your defense is to blame them for their own injury, it tends not to sit well with the general public. That's just the way it is.

3) In these types of cases, responsibility is often assigned. Unless we see the court documents, we don't know if that happened in this case. But it's entirely possible that the judge ruled that "40% of this was your fault, injured finger guy, and 60% was the company's fault." The award is then adjusted accordingly. So what I'm saying is, even though he got a lot of money, it's not necessary that he was blameless. Of course, we don't have a way of knowing without access to the full court report.


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## reggiek (Jun 12, 2009)

I've heard the same arguments Live4ever. But the logic falls down when you apply it the other way….why didn't he buy a sawstop if the extra money would not have been a problem? Why didn't he buy a sawstop in the first place? And if he is due money because he was hurt…then why isn't everyone due money that buys a saw without the sawstop technology?

As for the financial decision, you are probably correct (companies have to make these kinds of decisions all the time), but again we have to consider that this is a free market system. You have a choice to not put yourself at risk - just don't buy the product….if all saws were required to provide complete safety then no one could afford to make them…there would be no competition and the product would probably never improve…why do R&D when you might get sued out of business for adding something that might make another danger not to mention you are probably spending a fortune to make the machines in the first place and heck…everytime you make a new development everyone else will have to follow suit…soon saws would all be the same price.

Now consumers have to make this decision between safety and risk all the time. There are folks that jump out of Planes…and their are folks like us that use saws…there are folks that choose to sit on their couches all day…..I would say that no one should be allowed to do dangerous things because of the inherant possiblity they may get hurt or killed…or else society would have to pay them everytime they get hurt.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

Why am I suddenly having flashbacks to a classic Henry Fonda/Jack Klugman movie 

Live4 -
You do an excellent job of making your case--
But I'm not convinced.
But no-I don't blame the jury-I blame the judge who didn't throw this case out for lack of merit.
Niether Ryobi nor any other saw manufacturer I know of (except maybe SawStop) makes ANY CLAIM that this is a totally safe tool. On the contrary they warn you over and over ad nauseum that it is a HAZARDOUS tool and you CAN be hurt or even killed. I think it was my little DIY model Delta that even came with PLACARDS I was advised to post in my shop warning of these dangers.
I'm sorry-but even if Ryobi could have added the SawStop technology without losing a cent-
Even if they would have made MORE profit by adding it. And they chose not to -
What happened to this man-or to me - was not Ryobi's fault.
The saw performed as advertised - the man would likeyl not have been injured if he had used it properly.
And if he was doing the best he could-and the wood slipped or whatever-- and he got hurt - it would have been an unfortunate-- accident.
And no-I am not claiming to be a perfect user-I have scars to prove otherwise-but they were all MY fault.
If this man's employer failed to warn him of these dangers-then THERE would have been a legitimate suit.
But not as profitable.
I will be curious to see the first lawsuit brought by someone who is injured when SawStops technology fails.
THAT will be a legitimate claim against the manufacturer.

Reggie-
You forget-
Those people who "choose to sit on their couches all day" are in danger of obesity which can lead to a variety of deadly illnesses.
HEY---
There's another one-
All us chubby out of shape folks with bad hearts (yes that describes me) need to SUE LAZYBOY because they didnt include technology in their chairs that forces us to get up and move ever so often--


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## JohnStevens (Apr 21, 2010)

Let's also remember that when this accident happened, SS only had one version of the saw available. The 650 industrial saw. No way a flooring company is going to cart this giant around. Could you imagine lugging around a Powermatic 66 from site to site? Granted, years before SS folks were roaming the manufacturing world looking for a taker and no one stepped up.

One other thing to remember is that it would cost upwards of $500-$600 to add the SS type of technology to each saw. That's 5 times the cost of the POS Ryobi he was using. Could you imagine a bench top table saw costing $800? I bet it would be hard to sell…


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## sparky52 (Feb 17, 2010)

Just goes to prove you can still get 12 idiots on a jury.
I'll bet they all voted for Obama.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, hopefully it will be overturned by a higher court.


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## GlenGuarino (Feb 23, 2010)

I hope this gets overturned for many reasons. The people to blame are the lawyers for the passed 45 years. They have caused us to take so many really stupid costly measures that soon are dropped or modified but not before they have cost all of us a lot of money.

With this being said the companies have also been to blame. Many years ago the companies took off the table saw raving knifes to save 5.00 dollars a saw. The results were 100,000 plus people getting injured. Recently the manufactures have started to put them back on only after the government made it impossible for injured people to sue them with old claims. I can't help but feel outraged that they were allowed to remove a proven safety device just to save some money.

The car safety improvements, I have been very supportive with. Both my parents were killed in a accident. Recently my son was in accident. When the Emts saw the car they took out the body bag. Thank God he was not hurt and walked away from it. Due to the safety improvements that the manufactures were force to develop.

I am also saddened by the way some people try to make everything that happens Obama's Fault. I'm a independent, But I find it very sad that people forget the mess that Bush and Chaney got us into.


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## hawke777 (Mar 1, 2010)

I would certainly throw in and say that this needs to go up to a higher court where someone with some sense throws it out. It pains me to think that some guy with no safety sense will land a new country-wide ruling that would eventually cause inexpensive jobsite saws to cease to exist… which of course would spread to circular saws and other spinning and sawing blade tools once it gets a leg inside the door.


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## ConcordCarpenter (May 8, 2010)

Rediculious!! the guy lives about 20 miles from me. I was actually was so mad I posted on my blog about it.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

if you read over at FWW…. apparently he wasn't using the splitter, blade guard, *OR THE FENCE*


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## Bradford (Dec 8, 2007)

Crap, Crap, Crap….The guy didn't speak a word of english, used the saw absolutely wrong, was probably here illegally, working for a company that looks the other way. Who the hell puts a bench top saw on the ground, removes all the safety features, raise the blade all the way up, leans over it, and pushes a 3/8 inch board across it with both hands in the line of the blade? No contractor in the USA would ever do that. It's just stupid that the legal system here does so much to help A**holes like this, but turns there back on the real citizens of this country. The lawyer, the idiot and everyone on the jury should be dropped into an alligator pit. Thanks for posting this forum.


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## Massoger (May 13, 2010)

Ahhh…the kindergarten rules strike again! Make the rules to prevent the stupid people from getting themselves hurt…so the intelligent ones suffer. When will everyone learn that, like children, we must learn from our mistakes. Stick a fork in a toaster once, you will never do it again! Cut your hand severely on a table saw…I'm betting you start using the proper safety precautions. Case in point…I cut my fingers on a table saw…luckily it was minor (as minor as it can be when flesh meets a 40 toothed carbide blade spinning at 5,000 rpm)...but I was doing it all wrong. For the past 13 years, I use a bigger, more powerful saw and no accidents…because I do it right!! Simple lesson…no need for lawyers and courts!

The seatbelt law is also a silly thing to me. I wear mine, 100% of the time…but I think it's absurd that you can get a ticket for NOT wearing it. I am doing harm to no one else if I choose not to wear my seat belt. On the same token, as a motorcycle rider in TX, there is no helmet law. SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT…I HAVE to wear my seatbelt or you will make me pay you money….BUT I can ride 70mph on the freeway without a helmet on and you are ok with that?? Anyone else see the stupidity in that??

Enough with the lawsuits..if you get hurt because of your own stupidity, suck it up and shut it up! Save the laws and the courts for the poeple who truly get hurt due to someone elses neglect!!


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## chipndrill (Apr 16, 2010)

I didnt have the chance to read all of your comments and legitiment rants. Now its my turn. SawStop is a nice saw. Well Built. But way too many liability safety features. I hear if you do cut the hotdog in two or if you are cutting wet wood, it will shut down. And at times you will cut green wood. Home Depot has all kinds of Green 2 bys. You will have to turn that safety feature off or Replacement of the module is pricey. And if want dados, you need a an additional. Now does SawStop make a Router….or a Jointer, ect? I doubt it. If you dont know simple shop rules and SawStop will save your sweet A**, you take for granted the other machines will save you also. It just takes your focus off the real safety measures.


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