# Take the LJ Integrity Pledge



## PG_Zac (Feb 14, 2009)

PoopieKat has a thread going about Plagiarism, and I think Kunk raised a good point - *We can only control ourselves*, and suggested that we take a pledge.

With respect Kunk, I think that idea needs its own Forum topic, so I have taken your idea and modified it a bit, and post it here. If we (LJ's) keep adding to the pledge, then this post will always be visible on the LJ main page.
.
.

*The LumberJocks Integrity Pledge*

All work and ideas that I post on this site will either be my own work, or be clearly labelled as the work of another, or labelled as inspired by another. I will not present the work of someone else as my own.

If I use pictures, descriptions and any form of original work as a point of reference, I will get permission, where possible, and always give the originator credit for their work.

'
If you agree, just post your approval as a new comment.
.


----------



## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Lew


----------



## Eagle1 (Jan 4, 2010)

I second that..


----------



## hazbro (Mar 19, 2010)

sounds good to me. but the "inspired by another" is got a lot of gray area. like i saw a picture in fine woodworking and the technical detailed with it and applied it to something completely different. I would consider this original. and my kitchen cabinets I consider 100% original, even though they are standard 24" base with full overlay blah blah blah.

If I tried to duplicate a fellow LJ'ers work and gave it a twist of my own, I would consider this "inspired by".


----------



## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

I agree. Wholeheartedly.


----------



## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I will take that pledge with pride.


----------



## sphere (Feb 6, 2010)

I agree.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i'm in .


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

"Why should I give you a sample of my DNA when I'm not accused of any crime?"


----------



## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

Do I have to hold one hand up? Maybe right hand up left hand on a piece of 1/4 sawn white oak while you recite it?


----------



## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

That is a most reasonable approach.
I agree with enthusiasm.
Ellen


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

I agree as well.


----------



## SouthpawCA (Jul 19, 2009)

I agree


----------



## RvK (Nov 22, 2009)

works for me,
im allergic to the drama that accompanies trying to screw other people over.


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I second that emotion.

[grew up in Motown…..]


----------



## dfletcher (Jan 14, 2010)

Sure, count me in


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I'm good with this.


----------



## mikedrums (Feb 1, 2010)

Personally, I'm not into pledges. Actions speak louder than words and I'll let mine speak for me.

As to "inspired by another," I agree with hazbro that it's a very grey area. In fact, I'd go so far as to say (as I did in that other thread) that none of us is original. We have a long, endless list of others' work that has inspired us.

I don't claim to have any original ideas and know enough to realize that even if I *think* it's original to me, someone, somewhere else, thought of it, too.

Unless you're straight up copying another person's work, down to the design and details, I just don't see the need for giving credit. I think it's totally up the individual person to decide if they want to credit someone for an idea. If you want to say, "I made this because I was so inspired by so-and-so's thingamajig. Thanks to so-and-so for giving me the idea," that's totally up to you.

Is that polite. Yes. Is it necessary, no. Someone recently credited me for the idea for his sacrificial fence clamps. You know, I thought it was nice, but I wouldn't give it a second thought if he never said anything. 1, because I stole the idea from Rockler and 2, because who care… my ego's intact enough to survive it. 

I certainly don't think we should think less of someone for not giving credit for "inspiration."


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I sure don't need a pledge to know these things and I think everyone pretty much follows this already. There is also a verse tugging at my memory..

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

(The verse is used courtesy of Qohelet son of David).


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

There are 29,000+ projects exhibited in Lumberjocks.
Should we examine each one before posting a project of our own, lest we be accused of not giving credit where credit is due? It's a slippery slope, and it starts with a pledge. 
By the way, this whole 'pledge' concept has nothing whatsoever to do with some pirate stealing our project postings. And it certainly isn't going to do anything to prevent piracy.


----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

What is the big deal the ones he takes the name of the LJ is still posted so cedit to the LJ!


----------



## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Yep, yep, and yep…..


----------



## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Yep


----------



## jstegall (Oct 9, 2008)

I agree.


----------



## davidpettinger (Aug 21, 2009)

In!


----------



## bobtom (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm in


----------



## Brian024 (Feb 2, 2009)

I agree


----------



## rsmith71 (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm in. I know I'm inspired by what I see. I whole-heartedly admit to copying another's idea. But anything I make is mine and different from that which inspired it. I doubt I could begin to remember where every idea came from that I wanted to try myself. But that's not even in the same ballpark as copying a pic of someone else's work and passing it off as your own on another site. That is theft IMHO.


----------



## paperbender1965 (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree.


----------



## manumurf (Mar 4, 2010)

A box is a box. You make it your way and it is *your *box design. Just because it has a top a bottom and 4 sides (or maybe three or seven) and some hinges, you don't need to credit the guy who made the first box.
Just be honest. Besides, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, or so I have heard.

I'm in. I would not have it any other way.


----------



## widdle (Mar 10, 2010)

I totally agree..but am inspired on a daily basis by the craftsmanship and creativity on here..was always bothered when i was framing..when i would here homeowners say they just built a 10,000sq. ft. pad in malibu..and not ever mention all the different tradesman ,architects engineers..Drove me nuts..


----------



## Bureaucrat (May 26, 2008)

My pledge is to my God and my Country. Both decry theft. That is good enough for me!


----------



## Bob42 (Jan 9, 2008)

I am in also.

I thought that was how we were supposed to operate!!


----------



## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

My momma taught me integrity a long time ago and it has held all these many years. So I guess I'm in by default.


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Bureaucrat summed up what I wanted to say quite well.


----------



## Branum (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm in.


----------



## BarbS (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm in. This is a 'given.' Shouldn't even be necessary.


----------



## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

So pledged, I guess… but I don't really see what the fuss is about…
I'm thinking of how long the list would be, if I gave credit to everyone involved in one of my Projects!! How about the guy who invented the Twist Drill or the Hammer?... Or the Shaker Woman credited with inventing the Table Saw?... or…?
How about giving some credit to the Creator, who made us creative in the first place and who created the Wood, for us to use in our creations?! 
We learn from others our whole lives and pass on what we've learned to yet others… and so it goes…
If some Clown is out there claiming to have made our projects, there's not much new there either. Liars and cheats have been around as long as I can remember… and are usually discovered, some later, some sooner…
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the guy gets an order for one of our projects… and has to make it himself!! ;-)


----------



## bigike (May 25, 2009)

yea i'm in, i hate copycaters that don't give credit where credits due. Keep it 100.


----------



## PawPawTex (Mar 16, 2010)

Yeppers. I'm in.


----------



## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm in and I agree with Bureaucrat.


----------



## FirehouseWoodworking (Jun 9, 2009)

So it be said; so it be done!

I am reminded of the Honor Code of my old, gray Alma Mater: " A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do."


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

Some people make their living off of their designs. The design and all the work that went into refining it is theirs. Sadly, there is nothing to protect a furniture designer from being ripped off. All one can do is ask that others act honorably and give credit. It's easy to take this lightly, but imagine putting all of that work in to something, and then it shows up in the album of some well-meaning woodworker who forgot where he saw the picture and now blithely accepts compliments for his or her piece.

I think it is beneficial not only to other designers and makers, but to the community, if we take the time to reference our work. It not only gives credit, but it shares our methods and pathways, which are far more important than our products. Give a man a desk? Or teach him how to make it?

Eli


----------



## PG_Zac (Feb 14, 2009)

When I posted this, I fully expected the majority of LJ's to agree. From my time on this site I have come to see that LJ's are (generally) respectful, honest, decent folk.

In hindsight, I agree with the many that have stated that being inspired by by others should not need acknowledgement as we are all inspired by some (or many) of the projects we see here, or out in the real world. I think that the "Inspired by" label should be applied when someone makes a close reproduction, like the "Andy" box, or the "Maloof" chair. Other than close copies, I agree that it would be crazy to try to list all the sources of inspiration.

It is *good *to be a part of this virtual community of caring, respectful, like minded folk.

Thank you all.


----------



## azwoodman (Feb 22, 2009)

Agreed! People with integrity are becoming more scarce since dishonesty is so easy to fall into these days. I think it's extremely important to be honest in everything we do. That way you only have to remember one version of the story you've told, THE TRUTH!


----------



## buffalo689 (Mar 2, 2010)

ABSOLUTELY …


----------



## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

I assume honesty as the default position of all LJ'ers. Easier to count the dishonest by their show of hands.


----------



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Amen.


----------



## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

I agree as far as not claiming someone else's' work as our own, but if, for instance, I make a cutting board, the list of LJs to whom I should credit for inspiration would be endless, the same with boxes, and many other things, without trying to complicate things, I think just plain simple HONESTY is the best policy.
just my two cents worth.
I apologize if I have repeated what someone else has said in this post, I did not read all of them, as much as I would like to, I don't have the time, and there are so many.


----------



## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

Of course!
Integrity is becoming as rare as common sense.


----------



## nmkidd (Sep 18, 2009)

What they said…....ditto


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Right on, Miles125. This is why a 'pledge' is disturbing to me. I see absolutely no reason why we should spit on our own inherent trust in each other here in the Lumberjocks forum. This is about an outsider, a thief who stole our project postings and put them on his own site, without permission or compensation. This has NOTHING to do with our own sense of integrity as LJ members. By the way… is this pledge retro-active? That would be interesting…then.. And then, what IF someone comes forward with a complaint about a copy -cat? We could have a tribunal, composed of LJ members to form a panel, to judge each complaint from members who think their design was copied without attribution from other members who posted a similar project afterward. Then, on the basis of their findings, go to arbitration to calculate a monetary figure that could be awarded to the aggrieved party. Then, of course, this panel should be compensated for their impartial efforts. It's a slippery slope, this bureaucratic nonsense, but once it gets its foot in the door, watch out!!
You know…I was quite happy participating in the forums, but a few chuckle-heads kept haranguing me about not posting any projects. So I posted some…and now these projects have been selected for piracy to another site. What are those people going to do for ME now?


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

Slippery slope is a fallacy. To me this isn't about distrust, it's bigger than that. It's acknowledging every level of woodworking. You don't need to say "He built a cutting board and it made me want to." But you should say "he used a particular design that inspired mine." It rewards the innovators and the inquisitive. If someone questions you about the design, it becomes a dead end. You can just say "I liked it." If you point a fan to the creator, they can provide more insight into the piece.

Giving credit also raises the level of conversation. It provides a more professional and secure environment to discuss our work if we take the extra moment to jot down a name when we snag a picture.

Eli


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Shall we have a sing-a-long next?


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Maybe Lumberjocks merit badges to.


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree


----------



## mikedrums (Feb 1, 2010)

I'd like to repeat something…..

Actions speak louder than words. 
To those who have implied that *not* signing this pledge shows a lack of integrity, I respectfully but adamantly take issue with that.

I'm not saying one way is better than another way, but some of us were raise to let our actions speak for us and not pledge and promise to do things. Politicians pledge all the live long day and we all know where that leads.

When I grew up I saw men who promised and pledged and I saw men who *did.* The men who pledged were looked high upon in public circles and the market square…. and it faded. The men who *did* were respected in private and relied upon when it mattered and could always be counted on. Those were the men I aspired to be….. I don't always, but I try.

I don't want to be the "look at me" guy who talks it, I want to be the "count on me" guy who walks it.

I *am not* insinuating that anyone in here who signed this pledge has any lack of integrity at all. That is not my point in writing this. I'm merely giving some background as to my perspective on this matter.

Mike


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

This whole thing is a joke right ?


----------



## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

But that seems to be what you are saying Mike. Your words speak loud and clear. I am not signing my name to this because I feel it is childish and unnecessary


----------



## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

I also agree…..but not to the pledge part. I feel that I have integrity and character, I also feel that most LJ's have those traits….I believe that is part of the woodworking culture. I agree with poopiekat that it is beyond wrong for someone to steal anothers project and to claim it as their own. I cannot think of a project that I have made that was not "inspired" by someone….and I find no fault nor wrong doing in that. I believe that there was a post the other day in which a man builds Maloof inspired rockers and a LJ said that he was a copy cat….maybe, maybe not…. but I do know with certainty that I cannot build a Maloof inspired rocker and quite frankly I doubt if half of us could…...
Just my two cents worth


----------



## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

I'm in. I saw this coming with the first post made. It was a walnut coffee table, stolen from Northwest Technical Institute. Right Karson? He had a different handle then, his handle was Randy and he was copying Hank Holzer's work.


----------



## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

I agree with both sides.To me not signing a pledge does not mean a lack of integrity And there are a lot of gray areas not mentioned. If I am following a formal plan that I bought, was in a magazine or got over the web for free do I need to list this. I would not think so. When I built my work bench I looked at several, on line, and read several articles off line I then built what I wanted to my own specifications, was I influenced by all those designs, of course I was sometimes it was negative influence, would I list ? if someone lacks the integrity to post someone else's work they probably would also cheat on a pledge. personally I have to answer to myself and that is, or should be the highest authority for each of us.


----------



## rob2 (Nov 27, 2007)

This is like teaching a pig to sing, wastes your time and annoys the pig. Those with integrity don't need a pledge, those without won't even read this. Merit badges, gotta love that guy!!

I'm going back to my garage.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*Merit badges, gotta love that guy!!* Yeah, that was a good one

I am also thinking about maybe having a secret handshake


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Badges??? We don,t need no stinking badges )


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

LOL!


----------



## BOB67CAM (Dec 28, 2009)

im in, however 1 major issue with this scenario is yea all of us will be for it, but anyonw ele that wanders thru will not, its like taking guns away from lawful citizens, and only the outlaws will have the guns
the point is the guy that started this whole deal is most likely not a LJ.com member anyways so if thats the case hes not going to take the pledge, and if he did how fae would u beleive it and do you really think it would make any difference?
if you want real protection, get a sidearm, if u want yer pics safe, use watermarks and in all actuality if LJ.com would join this it would be another 10 min fix to make all pics watermarked to save all you guys n gals from worrieing about plagerism of pics


----------



## Seer (Jun 5, 2008)

Good enough for me I agree


----------



## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

If you break the sacred LJ oath of integrity you have to have slats of wood pushed under your fingernails..but not just any wood…the slats must have alternating stripes of purple heart and quilted maple…and you have to make them before they get shoved under your fingernails….that will teach ya..


----------



## Woodripper (Mar 22, 2010)

But once you make those slats to push under your fingernails you must credit Brad_Nailor with inspiring you


----------



## 2 (Feb 26, 2006)

Well, I'd just second what shopguryl said:

"Do any of you ever wonder why some of the best woodworkers like 
Lee Jesberger or Dennis Zongker
never get involved with this stupid stuff?

Do any of you think that either one of them should have to come on here and take a pledge?

*Think about it.*"

And one more thing.. this is already included in the posting rules so when you post any project you agree to this:

You are responsible for following the copyright rules. Don't post photos/content by others without consent/credit given.


----------



## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm in. Although I'd love to have the skill to copy a Maloof or Nakashima and many LJs, too.


----------



## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

*"Do any of you ever wonder why some of the best woodworkers like
Lee Jesberger or Dennis Zongker
never get involved with this stupid stuff?*

They are to busy building stuff to dabble in this silliness….


----------



## PG_Zac (Feb 14, 2009)

I have to say that I am extremely chuffed to see such a great response.

Even *most *who have expressed their reasons for NOT agreeing to the pledge have done so with expressions of their integrity. Good for you guys too.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Well *Zac* I for one am chuffed to see that you didn't take any of the jests personally, I was a bit worried you would. However I wouldn't be able to resist a decoder ring, if I could get a ring I would take the oath.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

well abbot ,
i think you can get a decoder ring ,

at that guy Hugh Chapman site .


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah *David*, but would it be a real Lumberjocks decoder ring or a cheap imitation?


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

it is probably one that poopiecat made .


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)




----------



## PG_Zac (Feb 14, 2009)

Hey *Abbott *- it would be too easy to let this degrade into a flame war, and few people want that. I wasn't sure about the intention behind your comments, so I rather just let them ride. I'm glad to know it was jest and not jab.

*David *- I don't think you could get a decoder ring at Hugh's site - no LJ has made one for stealing yet


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*David - I don't think you could get a decoder ring at Hugh's site - no LJ has made one for stealing yet *

Hehe


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i guess we will just have to muddle along ,

with

*TRUTH , JUSTICE , AND THE LUMBERJOCK WAY !*


----------



## getneds (Mar 18, 2009)

i posted some info to martin about not being able to right click pictures. There is some very simple code that will disable that. I think it's pretty lame that they take pictures and claim it as thier own work. I mean you can basically start a cabinet shop with pictures of someone elses stuff. These clowns stealing pictures have no skills, and need to out shine someone. Maybe they built a flower box here, anmd a business card holder there, maybe even door stopper…... If you need to take someone elses work and claim them as your own your a schmuck.

Taking ideas is different. If I inspire someone its a compliment, if they dont give me credit thats fine. All things I know are a little bit from every woodworker I have ever known. If I thanked them for every project i built using their ideas the'd block my number. It's the styling that makes each piece unique.(eg. Band saw boxes)

There must be a million bandsaw boxes in existence. Each has their own touch. If the inventor of the band saw box got a letter of thanks for each new box built, he'd move.

Imitation is a compliment, just as in music.


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Oh come on! That means I have to throw out all those plans of every body else's projects &*(%#@:".
All right if you insist LOL
That means David and Larry and Rob and Todd and Bob and Charles and Randy and James and 16000 other people can't post their great stuff and tempt me!


----------



## dannymac (Feb 21, 2010)

works for me


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

I think not being able to right click pictures would be a real detriment to this website and likely a traffic/money loser for Martin. I can give you a couple reasons as to why I feel that way;

1. I found this website about a year ago by Google searching the term "Dust Collection". After some research and looking over and joining a few other sites I ended up making this one my home. Because of the sites layout, community and projects including in a *BIG* way the photos. I also copied (from this site), printed and hung up in my shop a photo of the Thein unit I built. Now the unit I built turned out nothing like the photo, as a matter of fact my unit looks nothing like the other 50 or so units I have viewed on the web including a dozen or more from Lumberjocks. But it sure was convenient to reference that photo a couple of times during the my build. (I can post the two photos, the one I referenced from this site and snap some pictures of the DC unit I built tomorrow if anyone is interested in seeing them).

Does this mean the pledge is wasted on me? (Oh darn)

2. I recently posted a project I built for my wife. A small bright utility shelf for her sewing room. I stole the idea for it from a photo I copied (from this site), printed and stuck to the back of my shop tool box with a magnet. I didn't credit the guy who posted the photo and I sure don't know who's project it was. I also don't feel one bit unethical about the process or my build. Because like everything else I build my project is my own. I will dig up the photos of the projects for you to compare…be right back…










OK, here is the photo of the shelf I referenced from this website (I don't know who posted it but I liked it).










My shelf project

Here is what I built. I don't see any unethical or thievery going on there. I built it with the same procedure I have been using for twenty five years. My wife and I are always prowling the second hand stores and antique shops (and me new construction/remodels). If I see something I like or that I think is useful I take a mental note of it or in this day and age my wife snaps a photo (s) of it with our phone. I take them home and hang toss them in a file or hang them in my shop for later reference.

If in the future if I see somebody on this website has built a project like mine, similar or exact I would find enjoyment in that. I do understand that copying some work exactly may cause professional problems for some folks and I would be 100% willing to listen thier view on the subject. I also believe Catman is getting a raw deal from that other website.

I certainly know enough that if I built something I see here and someone gets upset because they think I borrowed from them, if I did I would be happy to post something acknowledging that. If I didn't then there is nothing that needs to be done.

The main point being that the photos and write-ups in the projects section here are as valuable to me as the discussion in the forums. The combination of which makes this website incredibly useful which in turn provides Martin with whatever it is that he is trying to accomplish here. So far (to me) Martin seems like a pretty sharp and nice fellow and I have no doubt he knows what he is doing. I believe adding the code to not be able to copy photos would be a huge blow to this websites usefulness.


----------



## mikethetermite (Jun 16, 2009)

Sounds good


----------



## Mogebier (Feb 4, 2010)

You guys can pledge all you want, but to me it's like asking my 5 year-old to just play nice.
No thanks.
I posted my items. I'm not going to say they are mine, it's just inferred that they are. I am proud of my personal integrity. I say what I believe, and don't beat around the bush, if you haven't noticed 
I have a MAJOR issue with this little line in your statement: "...or labelled as inspired by another…" 
Everything you ever do. Everything you ever think. Every action you take. Every idea in your head. Every aspect of your life is influenced and inspired by another, so this is really meaningless.
There is no nice way to say this, and I do not imply anything mean, or want to start any arguments, or start a flame-war, and I do not want any hurt feelings - Some of the people on this site really REALLY need to get out more. Especially go around the Internet and see how the rest of it reacts and thinks of things. A lot of reactions to this whole problem of plagiarism etc is solely rooted in the 1950's. Not saying that you are not entitled to your ideas, because you are. I'm not saying that what the guy did wasn't wrong, because it is. But some of you have to realize that it is 2010 now. Everything is public. EVERYTHING. You have the choice as to how much, on occasion. The only way we control the outward flow if information is when we all do 2 things: 1. We stop using the Internet. 2. We Die.


----------



## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

My woodworking is like my fishing. I know what I've done and don't need to claim an untruth I will forget I told 5 mins. later.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Brilliant post *Mog!*


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

Abbott,

I'm interested in your reaction to my earlier posts. I'm trying to learn my way around design and it's frankly terrifying to post my ideas online. I put them up because I trust people, and because I want to share my experience in trying to create something unique and identifiable. The attitude of "imitation is flattery" is not the message i get from the design world. From a builder's perspective, the piece is everything. It doesn't matter if someone tacks your photo on the wall because you have the piece of furniture. For a designer, the concept is critical. You can put as much work into the drawing as the building. Someone using that design without crediting you is like someone stealing a piece of furniture from your shop. Hours and hours of your time are lost when that image is separated from your name.

I think the pledge is silly, too, but it touches on a broader point. I realize individual cases don't mean much, but one of the first projects I found on this site was a very close copy of a Carlo Molino desk. It had some changes in styling, but the exact silhouette. Some asked where the maker got the idea and he made no mention of the Molino desk. Later, it came out that this was a university project, making even less likely that the original was never mentioned. If this is the attitude towards a world famous designer, you can see how it makes the site seem unwelcoming to a neophyte.

Given the speed at which information is disseminated, it's important that we support each other's work. It's scary to open your sketchbook to the community, but hearing that the community doesn't respect your work, what's the point?

Eli


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

oops. Carlo Mollino


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*Eli,*

I read the post you addressed to me then I went back and read your other two posts, then I read this one again.

I don't take this stuff as seriously as some do and I certainly don't take it as seriously as you do. As a matter of fact I just try to keep a spring in my step and a smile on my face and sail through life the best I can. I visit this website daily for two main reasons…woodwork and fun. I know others visit the website for different reasons then I do.

I don't measure myself or my wallet on my woodworking talent or experience, some do and others have to. I also don't bow down to some folks attitudes (not referring to you) around here that because they are talented woodworkers other users of this website better be wary of them and their friends. I don't worry about it, so it's no big deal to me. When I build a piece of furniture it is for myself, a family member or friend. It only has to be as good as I want it to be which is functional. Hell, I think it would be great if someone found something I built to be interesting enough to duplicate for themselves.

I also believe this website is for the hobbyist as much as it is for the professional. If a guy or gal is worried about their designs then I would say don't post them here. I would think a professional worried about his designs would post them to a more secure place such as their own website where they controlled the environment with code and copyrights. I hope I don't see the atmosphere of this website ruined by professional woodworkers who are not willing to provide a secure environment for their web presence themselves. To me that would mean that some visitors to this site would lose much of the value of visiting here. If some professionals may be trying to use this website for exposing their work to the public free of charge and have worries while doing so, it could ruin the site for the hobbyists. So I would hope to see folks that have worries about posting their projects here not make inconveniences for those of us who don't worry about posting our projects.


----------



## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

I think you have said it best Autumn, now lets all go to the shop and get busy and do our best to make something that we can be proud of. it is late, so i will start in the morning. I bet mine will be better than yours,na,na,na, just trying to add some humor guys, and gals.


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Can someone direct me to a project posted recently with attribution to an earlier project now? I mean, outside of obvious Shaker or Maloof references. Who's living up to their pledge….anybody? C'mon…you swore to it! Bahhh


----------



## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

So, what patent attorney will take this one on? I made a raised panel bed head. You know there are a bunch of them. I liked them as opposed to sleigh or flat. Whom do I give credit to? I make raised panel cabinets exactly like the ones in the stores. Heck the router bits come in sets that everyone uses. They will look alike. whose toes will be stepped on in that instance? I vow to give credit to someone who has a unique idea and I use it in my work.


----------



## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Poopiekat

Check out my Chesset

Reference to Gary

Sorry


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

DaddyZ:
Congratulations on your project, and integrity!
but… but…you never took the pledge!!! Which proves my point in a round-about way. We are all inherently honest, though vulnerable as recent events have shown. My participation in this thread has mostly been about the need to draw the line between honest inspiration versus outright theft of our project entries from the Lumberjock site, and posted as if they belong to an alleged thieving webmaster pirate.


----------



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

My Pledge to everyone hear.

As a LumberJock, anything I post is a fair game sharing. If you like what I've posted and desire to copy it literally or take some aspect of it into your design, feel free to do so. My own pieces are copies of or they may resemble some pieces I have seen over the past many years.

My belief is that nothing in this craft is absolutely new and unique anymore. I would bet every piece has a traceable provenance to many other pieces. This is a good and comforting thing in my opinion.
Even Silya's wonderful design has reflections of many other pieces. I found his beautiful chair's look and leg design reminiscent of Charles Limberts work which owes his designs to a William Morris's influence.

Ref. The Arts and Crafts Movement by Robyn Langley Sommer pg. 22


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"If you think that some sort of fascist ideology will improve the safety and security of Lumberjock members, then the cure is worse than the disease. "

?

This isn't a legal contract, folks.

Nobody has to have it evaluated by their attorney or accountant for legal and/or tax sufficiency/implications.

It was an idea … made with the best of intentions … and whose spirit I agree with.

I thank those who have already commented about the direction the tone has taken, on this one, by the minority of posters.

Personally, I don't see any harm in reminding one's young children to "be nice," or reminding ourselves and each other to be ethical.

Incidentally, I happen to like pie. Actually, I happen to love it-especially cherry pie with a scoop of French vanilla right smack dab on the top of it.

Yum.

As you were….


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I agree to live my life and conduct myself in such a manner with integrity and honesty. ... and not steal anyone elses ******************** .. lol


----------



## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

So Sorry ! Guess I am not good enough to be one of the boys! Pledges went out back in boy scouts 20+ years ago!!


----------



## jspelbring (Oct 3, 2006)

Meh.


----------



## JAGWAH (Dec 15, 2009)

Ez ok DaddyZ, vie wiel come get you when ist time. Vie know where iet es you lieve! 8)


----------



## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Bless you! just don't leave me behind, I promise to do better


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

This isn't about policing the site and fascism and ruining fun. It's about respect. It would be nice to know that we all respect each other enough not to steal each other's ideas. I realize that most of us don't rely on this to make money, but some of us do. I may come up with something really unique, but without confidence in this community, I'd be forced to either share my new experience, and give it up, or try to make money off it, and become the secretive, elitist woodworker. Do you want to encourage people to share knowledge or not? It will never be 100% effective, but if you know there are a few thousand lumberjocks watching your back, it sure helps.

Eli


----------



## Elaine (Jun 24, 2008)

I'll pledge to the best of my ability


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

1. I agree with what Martin said. Why do we have to go any further than that? I will NOT be doing so.

As someone mentioned above I have met all to many Righteous Hypocrites who would …..well you get the point.

2. *Abbott:* I have a Confession to make. I "Stole" your shelf as above!! NO! NO! Not the Hot Apple Pie!!

BUT! It's* NOT *built yet and what I will be building from YOUR *"Nice Wife Shelf"* will be Lengthened somewhat, 3/4" Ply, no Drawers, just the open space to use as a ….....

*"Small Power Tool Holder"* i.e. everything that is presently laying on a shelf, on top of each other with all the Cords Tangled Up.

*SHELF:* A slot for the Skil Saw Blade and Shield, a hole for the Sabre Saw Blade & Router, a Groove for the Power Drill, flat for the Belt Sander and ROS and a couple of others. Dividers accordingly under each tool to coil up the Power Cords.

When it's done, I might even post it as a *"FINISHED Woodworking Project". *May I have your Permission to do so?

Rick

PS: The Secret Handshake? Carefull on that Topic. Never know who might be reading this ….LIKE ME!! ...LOL…

Rick


----------



## CryptKeeper (Apr 28, 2010)

Personally, I think it would be really difficult to find anything that is truly unique on LJ's.

For example, before I joined LJ I built a couple of Craftsman style doors, who do I give credit to?

A quick Google indicates that the Craftsman movement was started by architect Augustus Pugin; do I give credit to him or do I give credit to designer William Morris? Or, to the Egyptians that invented doors some 4000+ years ago?

The one thing I can guarantee you is that you will not find a door anywhere that is identical to the doors I made - it is literally impossible (keyword identical). I would challenge anyone to replicate someones work "exactly" based on the information posted on this site. And with that, I believe in some part every project posted is inspired by someone else's work.


----------



## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

part of the reason why people visit this site, if not the only reason, is to find inspiration by looking at what others do. it's a give and take thing, subscribed members can post their things for others to see, thus knowing they somewhat abandon all rights to it. some give more ideas than they recieve, and others don't subscribe or never share and do nothing but take. but thats how it is with everything.
all you can do is hope for some credit, but once you post something then it belongs to everybody who sees it.

as cryptkeeper mentioned, you would need to credit millions of people for every single thing you do, all the people who made it possible to do that thing. from the guy who invented the wheel, to everybody who works at the company that made the keyboard you are typing on.
i'ts been 1000's of years since nothing totally new has ever been created by someone, who didn't need any ideas or tools created by anyone else to make his creation. intelectual property is a shamefull invention, but we need it for our society to function.


----------



## allthunbs (May 29, 2010)

I'm going to have to be a stick in the mud here. I have seen plagiarism from several angles. I have had my work plagiarized and published only to not have sufficient capital to carry on a cross border law suit that would have taken millions of dollars and years to enforce. Even copyright is no assurance if your idea is valuable enough. Look at Deforest Crosley. RCA ridiculed him in court and he spent every penny he ever made trying to enforce his patent. His granddaughter (I think) finally won the lawsuit. In case you don't know who Deforest Crosley is, think the forerunner of the transistor. It was his product (the vacuum tube) that created the field of study (electronics) that created the transistor. His granddaughter got peanuts compared to the wealth that concept generated.

Now, for the other side of the coin. In several of my various "careers" I have had the opportunity to work with graphics artists (commercial artists.) These are very imaginative people who create things every day. I oft wondered how they could come up with such marvelous ideas and with such precision. I got an offer from an artist to redesign my logo. I agreed, honoured that he would be willing to take the time and make the effort, and indeed it was an effort. It took months of hard work. He took my existing logo, modified the elements, added a stock character and voila, he won the American Corporate Identity Award with it. There was nothing original in the logo. It was assembled from stock bits and pieces but the end result was definitely original and beautiful. I cannot diminish the work that went into it nor my appreciation of the effort he made.

So, when you say "don't plagiarize" what do you really mean? I see a beautiful table. I take that concept and make a front porch out of it, that alone looks pretty but out of place. Add some plants and it fits beautifully. Did I plagiarize? or, did I take an idea and make it my own? No matter how hard and fast the rules, be prepared to break them or "adjust" at your whim.


----------



## brianbagley (Dec 12, 2009)

Hate to break it to you, but everything is inspired by something or someone else, so what is the point of this?


----------



## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I am inspired by what i don,t see


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

My pledge:


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

INTEGRITY ,
YOU EITHER HAVE IT ,
OR YOU DON'T .

i have seen posts here , 
that credited the gift 
from someone that led to the new work .

i have also seen 'new work' ,
that was obviously 'borrowed' ,
from others work here ,
with no thanks or mention .

i must not be alone ,
as those posts disappear quickly !

i stay ,
i learn so much from you all ,
thanks for the inspiration ,
and the help .

have a good 'memorial' ,
and bless all those honored on this day !


----------



## Eli (Mar 3, 2010)

I'd have to credit too many people, so I won't credit any. Is that the argument you folks are making? Do you truly believe that you should credit the person who made the wheel and the keyboard? Or are you just trying to mock the discussion rather than engage in it?

Eli


----------



## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

Eli, i think nobody here is going to say that they don't need to give credit. it's a matter of politeness.
i recently saw a box project that i liked so much that i made a similar box, i mentioned that i got the idea from someone elses project. i didn't mention the username of the person who gave me the idea, maybe i should have looked up through the project to find his name. but then again that person didn't invent that box or add anything to the design, if i give him credit for it, will the original creator be happy that someone else gets credit for his work?

i used to be a level designer for a pc game, at a moment i was generally concidered in the game community to be the the best level designer for that game in the world. i had others not just take my ideas, with or without credit/permission, but just copy paste entire parts of my work into their levels. things on wich i worked for months, visted the actual places etc… obviously i was moderately happy about people just copy pasting my work, but i couldn't have been more proud whenever i saw someone else make something inspired out of my methods. as i was an official level designer, people rarely thought it was neccesary to give credit because it was my job to do that.

giving credit is a matter of politeness, having people use your ideas means that they like what you do, i really hope someone will some day get inspiration from a project of mine. if i get credit then that is a little plus.


----------



## allthunbs (May 29, 2010)

Eli, I don't think that is the issue. I'm wondering at what point does an idea become "my own?" I'm using a concept in use since Roman times, copied by someone else, and I get an inspiration from his work. Do I owe him a royalty or the Romans? Or, does this concept of "public domain" come into play? Bad English but you get the idea-I hope.


----------



## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

*Roger:*

You nailed it Buddie! I LOVE that Statue and it's symbolism. Had a little one when I was a Child, have been looking for a Good Size Bronze one for a while now.

Thanks, and your right the time to *Grow Roses is now!! *I'll PM you a little later, on my way out right now.

Keep On, Keeping On!!

Rick


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick,

Yes it is an appropriate symbol which I try to follow.
You are welcome to PM me at any time as well as anyone else who wants to about anything.

Everyone have a nice long weekend.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

*2. Abbott: I have a Confession to make. I "Stole" your shelf as above!! NO! NO! Not the Hot Apple Pie!!

BUT! It's NOT built yet and what I will be building from YOUR "Nice Wife Shelf" will be Lengthened somewhat, 3/4" Ply, no Drawers, just the open space to use as a ……..

"Small Power Tool Holder" i.e. everything that is presently laying on a shelf, on top of each other with all the Cords Tangled Up.*

__

That's nice *Rick* and a good idea about the power tool shelf as well. I have a larger one I built about 20 years ago with drawers and doors instead of an open shelf, it still works fine and we have it hung on the wall in our room.


----------



## deeman (Dec 19, 2009)

I agree


----------



## CryptKeeper (Apr 28, 2010)

Eli, 
I personally am not mocking this discussion I believe intellectual property is very important but my question is what qualifies as an original creation? Everything I have ever built was inspired by someone or something else but none have ever been an exact copy.

I did craft shows for several years and I can't tell you how many times I saw someone who honestly thought their project was an original creation and I knew my father or grandfather had built something extremely similar long before they were born.

I've also read on various woodworking forums where someone tried to claim the end grain cutting board was his idea and started sending cease and desist orders out. The individual not only tried to claim the pattern he tried to claim that the end grain cutting board was his idea. For the record the pattern he tried to claim was apparently a popular high school wood shop plan from the 50's - my mom still has the one her brother made for her.


----------

