# Observations



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Big Fish Small Pond*

I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.

Many years ago, in my formative years I wanted to be a musician. In my local area I was actually pretty good and had a bit of a reputation. Based on my interests, I went to a specialized school that would allow me to take college level music courses while still in high school. I thought I was pretty hot stuff.

Until I got there.

When I arrived, I found that the music department had a full symphony orchestra, 3 wind bands, 2 stringed orchestras, 4 choirs and a variety of specialized performance groups. After my audition, I found myself placed somewhere in the third level band. This small pond fish had just arrived in the big waters; what an eye opener.

It was probably one of the most educational experiences of my life. To realize that there is always somebody better was a valuable lesson.

Among my circle of acquaintances, I am quite the woodworker. Of course none of my friends actually do any woodworking so the pond is quite small. Once again I was a big fish in a small pond. When I first came across LumberJocks I was intimidated by what I saw and equated it with my high school music experience.

I was right.

This small pond fish had ventured into the big waters once again. The difference here is that the big fish don't flaunt their bigness. Instead, they generally behave themselves as older siblings rather than superior species. The folks here are aware of their skills and proudly display them (as they should), but do not let their advanced knowlege become a status symbol.

I am enjoying my time here and learning skills and attitudes that can only do me good. If I behave and pay attention, I'm looking forward to the time when I too can be a "mediocre woodworker."


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Amen Russell. I understand the big fish little fish scenario. Among my friends I am a really good woodworker and I get lots of praise and encouragement. But in reality I am just a hacker - I do ok, but I'm definetly a little fish. I came to Lumberjocks from other forums with hopes that I would find less egos and more help to improve my little fish syndrome. And I have! This is the best forum for help, information, encouragement, fun and friends. I know that I have already improved my woodworking by the tips and information I have gained here.

Every Lumberjock should stand up and pat themselves on their backs--and the rest of us should give the others a virtual pat on the back. We really are good people here.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


i had a great laugh on your story , it reminded me of the time years ago a woodworking friend and i decided we would each build a project to enter in the rienbeck woodworking show ( its a juried show ) all our friends were looking at these projects and showering us with praise . by the time we got our projects in the truck and headed for new york we were puffed up like bullfrogs. so we get there and go in to see what we needed to do next and started looking at the other projects already there our egos were hit with a giant wrecking ball. long story short we decided to just leave our stuff in the truck and enjoy looking at some REAL woodworking !


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Good points about the general feel of Lumberjocks.com. There are some amazing talents that are well beyond the skill, talent and capabilities that I will ever possess, yet they are helpful, willing to teach, friendly and informative. It's a "check you ego at the door," sort of site. Nice post.


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## David (Jan 26, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Russell -

What an incredible sentiment to share. I agree with you whole heatedly. Lumberjocks is indeed a very special site. It is amazing to me that I can communicate with an awesome bunch of very talented woodworkers that so generously share their time and talent without making you feel intimidated.

David


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Your stories remind me of the time in 1972 when I thought I was ready for the big time in the Cowboy Art field. I stopped in to visit with Johnny Hampton at his gallery in Scottsdale, Arizona. Johnny was one of the founding members of the Cowboy Artists of America. He was pretty kind to a cowboy from Wyoming who THOUGHT he could paint. He made a statement that I've always remembered, "The cowboys call us artists but the artists call us cowboys." I hauled most of my stuff back to the hills but gained some insight and a couple good stories from one of the greats.

Russel, I think we all share your sentiments. the reason we are here is to learn. We learn as much from the beginners as the pros. I just studied videos with David, trim work with MrTrim and countless other learning experiences without spending a dime or leaving my chair. This is truly one of the great sites on the web and the reason is all of you who share and contribute to this community. Thank you one and all.


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## saddlesore (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. I'm a newbie here, but I've been made to feel welcome and encouraged by the folks here much more than any other woodworking site or forum I've visited. You guys (and gals) are terrific.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Russell. But do you realize that we have almost 2000 fish in this pond? It's been an excellent place for info and tips, and ideas. You learn something new everyday. Everywhere.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


I really enjoy the LJ group. Everyone seems to be very genuine and I enjoy that. I am very passionate about what I do and love sharing it. And I love sharing in the trials and triumphs of other woodworkers. I have learned quite a bit from the group here and appreciate everyone.


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## cajunpen (Apr 9, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


I am in agreement with everyone. LJ is a group like no other on the internet - at least that I've found. We have some of the best craftsman in the world visiting this forum, and I have never seen one of them do or say anything that was not helpful to the readers. The techniques and tips shared on LJ is invaluable, I don't know of anywhere in the world that you could come to one place and meet with other people with like interest/passion about woodworking. We have a very unique opportunity to hone our craft here. Thanks to everyone, as Thomas says we can learn from everyone that contributes.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Great writeup Russel. You hit it right on the mark. We all need to humble ourselves sometimes, or someone else will for us.


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## DustyNewt (Oct 29, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Big Fish Small Pond*
> 
> I just read Dennis' entry about the Western Design Conference he went to (yeah I know I'm behind) where he described himself as a "mediocre woodworker" and that statement struck me as representative of LumberJocks.
> 
> ...


Very well written article. When I visit websites or go to a show, I see fantastic work that my mind immediately tells me, "Forget about it, you could never do something like that." I am ready to give away all my tools and take up cooking or something. Then, I see a small detail, or a posting on LJ, and I say "Well, THAT was how it was done. I can do that." One thing leads to another and before I know it people look at a piece I did and say, "I could never do that." Everything is relative to how receptive your mind is. One step in front of the other gets you there. Thanks for the post.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Even the Bad is Good*

I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).

In my travels, I have read numerous entries about the value of LumberJocks. The testimonials to it's unique ability to combine professional and amateur seem never ending. The enumeration of benefits received and friendships found goes on and on.

Oddly enough, I seem to be missing all the negative stuff. There are comments about disagreements and mentions of topics that caused discomfort, but I have yet to find them. There was some intensity about whether or not donors should be recognized, but that was pretty mild and subsided rather quickly.

The only real negative I found was a complaint that there was too much praise on the site. That struck me as terribly fascinating in that the biggest complaint I could find was that people here were just too darn nice. The mind boggles.

So, this is just an observation, but I feel compelled to ask, "Is there any dirt?" What's the skinny on all this niceness? How is it that over 2000 people from all walks of life, with varying skill levels from all around the globe get along so well?

Are you people hiding something from me?


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


We all are closet bad-guys and gals. But no one likes a loudmouth, snob, bore, so in order to be loved, we leave the closet door closed while we are on the computer.

Besides that who wants to be working on a power woodworking machine when they are mad. That is not the place to unwind.

It the place to cool out, chill out, pass out and not pout. Except USCJeff who has insomnia at 2:00 Am and decides on a "sit out" on a foam brush filled with "Not so green stripper" so he can strip before going back into the house.


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## RobS (Aug 11, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Ha! Obviously you haven't ventured over to our evil sister site "LumberJerks"! No, Just kidding.. I don't see much negativity here either. Good observation, Russell.


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## TheKiltedWoodworker (Dec 21, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Russel,

I started off my Lumberjocks experience (almost a year ago, actually…) with a bang with this blog entry on Constructive Criticism.

Personally, a part of me actually agrees with the comment that the amount of praise is a little excessive, but not really for the same reason. I just think it is highly disproportionate to the amount of helpful feedback people get on their projects.

I honestly don't want to rehash the "Constructive Criticism" topic all over again. Having an art degree, and having gone through peer review sessions every week in every applied art class, it is something I'm used to receiving. Most people don't have that experience, so I don't expect them to be used to it.

And the whole discussion started getting silly with some people wanting to indicate whether or not they wanted constructive criticism by putting something on their project entry to indicate thus… It just got more and more diluted to the point that I didn't care anymore.

So I post a few projects here and there, but mostly I do it for fun and not with the intent of receiving much feedback I can learn from.

It doesn't really bother me, though; it's just the way this site is. I've learned to approach my own works with a critical view enough so that I'm really my own worst critic, anyway.

That said, I was pleased to take note of Karson offering some comments about Charlie's diamond-top box in a recent project entry.


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## Chip (Mar 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


When we keep topics wood related (well, except for festool and sawstop anyway ;-) this site and the people on it are the best.

I just really dislike anything that gets political, religious, etc. There are so many differences out there about so many of our individual beliefs and tastes. Woodworking seems to be the glue that holds us all together through all of these other disagreements, which is why I love woodworking, and this site.

I would think it unfortunate (especially in an election year) if people start bringing those sorts of things on LJ's. I, for one, sure hope politics stays off of here this coming year. Just my opinion.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


(this was posted 54 minutes ago-see?? I'm not ALWAYS on here!!)

I think one factor in the "niceness" of the site is the characteristics of individuals who have a hobby/business with a craft that uses their hands, their hearts, and their minds…. woodworkers (and I'm sure gardeners as well, as we will discover with the new site) "care", they know how to be patient and to out-think a problem.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Dirt!!! That is what GardenTenders is all about! If you want dirt check them out.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Well, MsDebbie it's nice to know that I can sneak one by you once in a while.

LOL Dennis … while I'm here, the wife is over with the 'Tenders digging up the dirt.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


"Be careful of the words you speak, keep 'em soft and sweet. Ya never know from day to day which ones ya'll hav'ta eat."

I think most of us are cognizant of where a small criticism will help and where it will harm. If I felt that I should really critique Ethan's work I would do it in a private message, if he requested it. I don't come here to listen to controversial conversation. I come here to have fun and relax(genuine chopper).


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I think it comes down to the fact that we have all lost our pencils at one time or another, have had no idea what we are doing, have this great idea and no where to put it, no one right there to say "look what I did" who would care--- we need other LJs!

I also think that we all recognize that I may say something one way and have been thinking in a slightly different way than it came out in the typewritten word. I had no intention of being harsh or mean, I'm just not as good at putting into writing what I'm thinking. A lot of us are like that. If we all recognize that and realize that then we can all play well together. There is also the point that you can't put inflection into a typewritten page and you can't see my body language over the net and you have to take that into account when you read someone's post. I type for a living and when I transcribe a tape I can't transcribe the inflections of my bosses voice - if I could I'd make a lot more money!

I'm glad LJs is here. Of all the sites on the net that I've been to this is by far the best as far as people and posts. Not a lot of rules which ruins some forums. I think Martin has done a bang up job!


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I found this to be an interesting blog as I have thought about this situation myself. I had to take a read on Ethan's blog.

I am not *"The Authority"* although I think that I am good at what I do (sounds conceited but not). I am at my level because others were generous with information as well as constructive and corrective criticism. I am my own worst critic so I was never offended. I am a business so I have to be relatively harsh with myself to make progress.

There is quite a variety of skill level and talent at LJ and I really enjoy that. I gave some "constructive criticism" one time and I felt horrible about it. Since then I have made comments in private and it seems to be well received, just as it was intended. I also have been asked in private for a hard critique and I will oblige. But in general my comments are not hard critique and are pretty positive.

Am I lying when I comment on projects? No, I can see the skill level that individuals are at and I see them making progress. I am not going to crush an individual's pride in what they have done. They are very aware of the shortcomings in their projects as I am in mine. Anyone can be a critical ass.

I can see that the LJ members are encouraged and challenged by the community to be more creative and improve craftsmanship. I am sure that I may encourage some, challenge others, and put a few off. That is unavoidable, but I am considerate of others in my remarks.

How do I critique? Really I have to set aside personal taste, for instance I don't like the Rococo style. But I can tell if it is well executed and well balanced. Balance, proportion, and execution or craftsmanship are the things that I look at for a hard critique.

I have had a desire to share, teach, and encourage. LJ has provided a great venue for me to do this. It's amazing to me how much I have learned and the balance of perspective that it has given me. I felt like this is the direction I needed to go for personal growth. I am thankful for the people here.

For all the harsh, dog-eat-dog, and fraudulent behavior on the internet I am impressed with the behavior of the LJ members.


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## dalec (Oct 3, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I agree with Chip. The reason LJ is such a great site is that everyone stays on topic which is woodworking. We don't stray into things better discussed elsewhere. I always fine everyone to be helpful, thoughtful, caring and dedicated to making each of us better woodworkers.

Dalec


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## Calgirl (Sep 26, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Ah, come on! Let's face it Lumberjocks….we're just wonderful, caring chips off the old log, who love the wood and nature. Some of us are creative, some just slog along, but all Lumberjocks have pith that is rich in compassion and sharing.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Got Pith?


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Todd, are you trying to make a pithy comment?


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


What of it? Are you trying to pith me off?


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Nope, nope wouldn't wanna do that.


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## toddc (Mar 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Whoa! This is just gettin' ugly.

Russel - Was that whole exchange negative enough?


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Todd, if I wasn't laughing so hard I guess it would be negative enough. It has become obvious that most of the folks here are amateurs when it comes to negativity. My day job is in the financial sector so I don't often encounter people who don't have a hidden adgenda. This place continues to impress me.

Now, I had to look up "pith" because I didn't know what it meant and this is what I found, "a usually continuous central strand of spongy tissue in the stems of most vascular plants …" Not quite sure what Calgirl means there …

The responses here have been just another demonstration of the type of folks here. Add to this Karson asking if anyone is going to the wood show in Dubai, USCJeff taking stripping way too seriously and pretty much anything Tom/Mot or Mot/Tom may say and you see a collection of people who take their wood seriously, but not themselves. I like this place and I'll probably say it again in the future.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


pith: the core… soaking up all that there is to offer… providing… yah.. I like the analogy.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I like yours better MsDebbie. I'd much rather be soaking up all that there is to offer than a strand of spongy tissue.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I have a thought - nothing profound. Most other sites you can post your comments, ideas, questions, even photos of your projects, but they are really impersonal. LumberJocks has a personal touch. Right from the start people welcome new members, you get a message from Martin offering personal assistance if needed, you have the option to have "buddies". You are encouraged to make friends. At other sites, if someone disagrees, it's easy enough to call a stranger a stupid moron and the flaming begins. Here, if someone disagrees, it's a friend and people are more likely to have a conversation with a friend to try to understand their differences.


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


--I would say that there is no-bad,
and that all only serves to high-light,
the more of what is good….

....and therefore as you say, "*even the bad is good*"! Kind of like how are you looking at that glass of water….half-full or half empty?

Open opinions give well-come invitations to try and understand that even though I may dis-agree with what you are saying, I will defend your right to say your opinion and in this way come to understand that, though your opinion differs from mine….I need not take your opinion as a personal attack upon my-self.

And yes I have been around here for some-time now and I still remember when this site was small and even when Ethan came aboard and that blog he did on 'constructive criticism', which is a fine piece of writing, ( by the way Ethan I miss your writing and dialog around here). Sometimes I don't offer opinions on a lot of what is being written now, since I much watch my time and then a lot of what is offered up is just a re-hashing of what has all-ready been covered in the past. Nothing wrong with this, it's just I don't have the time to keep re-writing my opinions every couple of months on the same subject. And so yes, after saying all that, I do take the time to read what is being posted and welcome more LJ'ers to keep on blogging, writing and posting those great wood projects!

And yes, this is only my two cents worth of opinion here….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank


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## jockmike2 (Oct 10, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Like Deb and Frank and some of you others, I'm so glad to have seen this thing grow, from what it was to what it is, and I can assure you it has'nt changed much. The core of this website has remained stable, caring, sharing, supportive and striving just like it was when I first set foot or hand in here. I am proud of the fact I'm part of this group, I've learned so much not only about woodworking but about the goodhearted core people of the country that I know is still out there. If you listen to the news every day you would thing we, and Canada are falling apart. I'll tell you what, Canada can join Michigan any day they want to or visa versa. Heh! We are not that far apart in our thinking, we all want the same basic things, familys, jobs. caring loving freindships. Thats whats its all about. Wow what a bunch of crap coming out of my sewer. I'll shut up. mike


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## EGA (Dec 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Think you about said it all and pretty well described my way of commenting on the topic I fully concur!!!
May the new year of 2008 even be better and let the sawdust fly. Semper Fi !!


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


All the hothead know-it-alls in woodworking get weeded out by discovering that a pieces of wood and machinery dont lend themselves well to those unwilling to learn PATIENCE.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


This has been one of the most fascinating and entertaining blogs to read! You are all so poetic and Philosophical!

I think it is good to periodically remind ourselves to be honest and sincere with our comments. I really like it when someone gives real constructive criticism on one of my projects because it usually sparks some very interesting discussion, or even debate. The we all learn even more from the whole process.

Thanks for the interesting post, Russel!


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I will admit to one thing. I try to post a comment on every project, because I believe the creator deserves that courtesy.

I can appreciate the amount of effort that goes into a project. I'm not into woodburning or what ever the technical term is called, so I'm not going to say I don't like it, just because I don't create items like that. We all have areas of specialty, Boxes, Rustic Furniture, Toys, Jigs, Mission. I can appreciate the effort and congratulate the successful completion of the project. If I have something that I'd do differently, I might suggest it in my comments especially if It's a point of constructive criticism. like make the grain match in the piece, try to make is symmetric, I realize that design techniques sometimes cause us to make things different than others would do like 5 legs on a chair.

I wouldn't say, "Man you screwed up, You put five legs on that chair. Should only have 4." But I might ask why in the world would you do that.

Making a comment is my option. As of now there are 211 reads of this blog and 26 comments, 27 with mine. Not saying anything is an option.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


"there are 211 reads of this blog and 26 comments, 27 with mine. Not saying anything is an option." That's an excellent point Karson, I read as many blogs, projects and forum entries that I can, but I don't comment on all of them. Sometimes everything has already been said and all I can add is "Me too" and that often doesn't seem to do justice. Personally, I'm pleased with the number of times people look at what I post whether they comment or not (though I admit I really like comments).

There are just so many quality projects here and a multitude of valuable posts that it's difficult to keep up. I find myself using the word beautiful more than I'd ever thought I could, yet that seems to be the only word appropriate at times. I'm not at the point where I am qualified to really critique, but I know the effort I put into my projects and I can fully appreciate the effort made by others. The fact that people here recognize, appreciate and acknowledge the work of others is the best part of LumberJocks.


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


There are just so many quality projects here and a multitude of valuable posts that it's difficult to keep up. I find myself using the word beautiful more than I'd ever thought I could, yet that seems to be the only word appropriate at times. I'm not at the point where I am qualified to really critique, but I know the effort I put into my projects and I can fully appreciate the effort made by others. The fact that people here recognize, appreciate and acknowledge the work of others is the best part of LumberJocks.

That sums up how I feel just about perfectly. I am awed by the output of the members. I am OK with some of the stuff I do, but there is a high standard here that I simply cannot meet.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


I try to read everything-I never know where I'll find information for the eMag (see??? It really is research). But sometimes I get pages and pages and pages behind. To catch up I often have to avoid comments on entries… other times I really want to acknowledge the submission but only have a limited amount of time so a quick "awesome" or whatever is what I'll post.
Other times, (like right now) I can be a little more wordy. 
I agree with Karson, that everyone deserves my attention - they posted it for people to see. I want to acknowledge their creations.


----------



## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Even the Bad is Good*
> 
> I cannot say enough good about LumberJocks, and apparently, I'm not alone. I periodically like to see who's online and go wandering through their projects and blogs (is MsDebbie ever offline?).
> 
> ...


Just to add to what I said earlier:

I try to read every project and most of the blogs. The ones that I choose to comment on are the ones that make some kind of connection with me personally.

Karson used the example of woodburning, which he is not "into," but he still tries to make a comment because he can still appreciate the effort that went into it. Since I don't have time to comment on every project I will comment on those which I can *most* relate to or appreciate. My example would be if someone posted a knitting project on LumberJocks: although I can appreciate the effort and artistic ability, I would be less likely to comment unless I was especially moved by the piece.

Since I am spilling my guts here, I guess I'd better offer a disclaimer: If your project has a comment from me I really meant it, even if it is only one word long. But don't assume that if you don't see my comment that I don't appreciate what went in to creating it, either. I do miss things, and sometimes (like Russel mentioned) it seems that all has been said.

And another thing, there have been entire blogs written about short comments or praise. But I have noticed that some of my shortest comments ("WOW," etc…) are on some of the project which I am the MOST impressed with. Sometimes I am just so impressed that I don't know what else to say.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*A Real Challenge*

Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.

I am quite the novice at this woodworking thing and I'm pretty pleased with my progress, and even more so with what I'm learning to do and appreciate. As it turns out, I am learning a craft, a skill. And in the process I am learning to recognize and appreciate the skill in the work of others. A few years back I could not have known how difficult and beautiful simplicity can be. It's a different world being surrounded by skilled artisans who are more than willing to share their skills through demonstration and encouragement.

Now the "Not Just Any Box" and "Muti-purposed 2×4" challenge is my first attempt at being judged. I don't expect to actually win anything, but the challenge to actually "compete" was quite daunting. So, I mustered my elementary skills and creativity and stumbled right on in. The process is it's own reward.

Of course seeing some of the other entries let me know that my place was solidly in the background. Yet, I was okay with that. I know full well that I am not ready for prime time. And still I have received more positive encouragement than I could have imagined. (Have I mentioned that I love this place?)

Now, as the challenge moves forward, I find that my patience is wearing a bit thin. First, those that post teasers are driving my crazy! I have minimal imagination so sometimes I hurt myself trying to figure out what you folks are building. I fully expect to be impressed, but I'm getting tired of waiting. Hurry up already!

And, the waiting causes another problem. Looking at the currently posted entries I'm having a difficult time deciding how to vote. If there are too many more entries, I'm pretty sure my head will explode and I won't be able to vote. That would be a real downer. This is almost worse than waiting for Santa.

All seriousness aside, I appreciate the time that's taken to show what's being made and the process involved. As I said, I've learned alot from the multitude of blogs, projects and forums. I'm eager to see the results, so on with the show.


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


Please don't let your head explode, and have patience .

As for lacking skill, everybody lacks some skill and that's why we keep at it, to get better.

Keep at it!


----------



## MikeLingenfelter (Feb 19, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


I've often been told, you will not succeed if you don't put yourself out there. We are often harder on ourselves than other are.

I do agree that it's going to be hard picking the top few, when there are so many nice entries.


----------



## rpmurphy509 (Nov 6, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


What a wonderful read. I sympathize with you Russel, going through the same feelings.

I am amazed again and again with some of these (most actually) entries.
Looking forward to seeing all of them completed and posted so I can be
amazed all over again.


----------



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


Russel . . . sorry if I have cause you any grief with Project X. (hehehehehehehe)

I have made a couple of hints in my blog . . . actually I said what I was making in one of them. You just gotta find it . . . :-D

The past few days have been crazzzzzzzy with snow. I have been spending way to much time shovelling snow and not wwing. Gonna finish of Project X this weekend.


----------



## RAH (Oct 14, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


It also amazes me what people are making from a 2 X 4. I was given a table recently, particle board veneer top however the legs are 2" x 2" x 24", I stand there and stare at them.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


Russel, you'd look funny with yer head exploded. Not a pretty thought. Please maintain. We like you as you is.


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


Hey, it's all over in less than a week now. I am quite prepared to be severely humbled by the entries.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


I hear you…. I enter these challenges for my own personal challenge and obviously not to "win".

And as for the voting. Thank goodness we get a week; it's going to take that long to decide!!!


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *A Real Challenge*
> 
> Okay, once more, with feeling … I love this place. However, it does try my patience at times. The most recent challenge is a perfect example.
> 
> ...


MsDebbie, I'm glad I entered when I did. If I had waited I would have been way too intimidated to even try. The entries just keep getting better and better. The work here is impressive and not an arrogant ego to be found.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Growing Pains*

HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!

I have been a member here at LumberJocks for a bit more than 6 months and the membership has effectively doubled since I joined. When I joined, the goal was to get to 2000 members by year end. We kinda left that one in the dust.

I tried to make it a point to look at all the projects and read all the posts. I love to read and like looking at pictures. At one time I thought I couldn't get enough to read ... I was wrong. What I found it that there are not enough hours in the day to keep up. Particularly if I bother to go to work.

I also found that I was spending less time in the shop while spending more time reading about shops. Too much theory and not enough practice makes a rather stagnant Russel. So I decided to get off my ever increasing behind and get out and work some wood.

For those that might be interested, over the last two weekends I have spent approximately 24 hours in my shop. During that time, I have turned on my power tools for less than 4 hours. I have spent my time sanding, gluing, chiseling and sawing. My it's been quiet lately.

But back to the point, by going out to the shop, I've spent less time here on LumberJocks. And while I was gone the place exploded. There are so many new projects to look at. Additionally, there are blogs and forum topics to catch up on. The volume is overwhelming.

The good in all this is that the quality of the site has not diminished with the additions. Of course, that makes falling behind all the worse. So, I plug away keeping up as much as possible. But I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something.

Now, having said all that, the real question is what to do? Some folks can continue as they always have and not be swayed by the changes. An admirable quality that I wish I had … I never could get into the whole Zen thing. I, on the other hand, have an underlying fear that I'm going to miss something really cool.

So, am I overly obsessive? Can one be overly obsessive? How does one quench the never ending thirst? Of course, the question is rhetorical, but it seemed worth the ask.


----------



## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


well all i do is just read the front page. i look at the newest stuff on the page. that works for me. if something is really amazing then you will most likely hear of it or someone will mention to you. trying to keep up with everything will just give you a lot of stress.


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


subscribe to the print version, and try to keep up before bed, waiting for the bus, and while you're… um… otherwise occupied and in desperate need of reading material. 

I've gone from being on top of every project to so far behind it doesn't even matter anymore - too bad about the Zen thing (we're born on the wrong side of the globe for that one)


----------



## RobH (Apr 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I try to dedicate one night or so a week (and then only a couple of hours) to getting caught up on things here. I look a little every day, and if something strikes me I comment on it. Sometimes I just look in passing and wait a couple of days before posting anything.

I love this place because of how easy it is to post projects, blogs, etc. It is much easier here than on other forums. In fact, now when I post a project on another forum I just throw a link in to the site here. Much easier to do it once in good form than to do it two or three times.

As far as keeping up, I just do not try. It really is a lot, especially with 2 kids, a wife, a job, and always two or three projects going. A lot of information being provided here. I hope it never goes away.


----------



## naperville (Jan 28, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


In the words of Mario Andretti… "If you are comfortable, you are not going fast enough."


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


Hi Russell,

I know where you are coming from. With all the posts that are coming in each day it is difficult to keep up with them and do other things. This site is only going to continue to grow so it will reach a point where we simply are going to have to be selective about what we look at and comment on. I think that Debbie summarized it pretty well in one of her responses to reaching her 10000th post. She said that at one time she read everything- all the posts as well as the comments. However she simply cannot keep up anymore. With this many members I don't think that any of us can and find time for other activities.

We can only do our best and enjoy the benefits of the site as we can work it into our schedules.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I can't keep track…just gave up. The first project I ever posted hardly got any comments…like two in six months…now look at this place…crazy.


----------



## HallTree (Feb 1, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I have only been a member for less than a month and I already feel the way you do. I am retired and have the time, but I will have to cut back on the time I am on this site. I really enjoy keeping up, but I have other interest. Besides, I have been married for 47 years and I don't want to mess that up. it's like my friend, Tom, said the other day, "I think I am going to get a divorce". "why in the world would you want to do that" I said. He said "my wife has not spoke to me in six months". I said "Tom, you might want to give that a lot of thought, a woman like that is hard to come by".


----------



## RAH (Oct 14, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I can't keep up anymore, lap top helps sitting in front of the TV. So many new names and faces, that much more knowledge to glean from this site. It gets better everyday.


----------



## ShannonRogers (Jan 11, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I was daunted the day I showed up here. Still, I never run out of something to read!


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


Hang in there, Russel, the best is yet to come.


----------



## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


I hear ya Russell! I think one of the nicest parts of Lumberjocks is the buddy system. Once I know that someone consistently blows my socks off with their work or their wit, then it's buddy list for them. Then at least I can keep up with their postings. But what if I miss the next newly appearing genius-jock!. I guess checking the pulse for bumped projects/blogs/forum postings will have to do.


----------



## 2 (Feb 26, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


And now I feel guilty lol 

As Tom said "the best is yet to come".. I'm working on few features that will make it possible to not miss the stuff that interests you most. At the moment we have the pulse and buddy system.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


Well folks it's always nice to know I'm not alone (misery loves company). This place is worth the time. And, I don't know if this is a blessing or payback, but the Mrs. has gotten just as addicted to GardenTenders. She used to frequently ask what I was doing (reading LJ) and mildly mention that I was a bit distracted during conversations. Now, she's regularly on GT while I'm on LJ ... we don't see each other much anymore. ;-)


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


hahah *Russel*, just wait until GT is as active as LJ-and this spring, wow - what to do? Plant the gardens or read about what others are doing?? haha

My biggest smile came from the wise words of our *TeenageWoodworker*. I think he has life all figured out and can give us all lessons on woodworking AND on life!! 
It's not work getting stressed about.

Personally, I've had to adjust my strategy several times in the past few months. As I stated before, up until December I read every post and every comment (the benefits of working at my computer all day) AND the necessity of keeping up to date so i get the best of the best for the eMag each month.

Well, once that Bandsaw prize was announced, that was the end of reading every single thing. I wasn't getting my other computer work done. 
So then I suggested the "never checked" option on the Pulse (and Martin quickly obliged.. thank you thank you) and I tried just to look at these items. Well, something was missing - I enjoy the back and forth banter of discussions that happen in the comments. And, the "never checked" list was sometimes way too long to get through in a day.

Then, I decided to try the buddy list and I added some of my favourite woodworkers to my buddy list so I would be sure not to miss their postings. Well, that wasn't working either because every day we are getting about 10 new members and when I look at everyone's projects and read their blogs I want to add them all to the buddy list.

Where am I today? Here's my current, almost working, strategy:
1. check any new messages on my postings (using the Pulse)
2. check any new messages on my buddies' postings (using the Pulse)
3. go through the "never checked" postings by anyone… working through that, throughout the day. (this is a must for the eMag so I can't let that get piled up)
4. check for "new comments" on old postings-anything that has over 4 comments must be interesting so I check those out if I have time.
5. if I've time to spare I'll click on the rest of the comments one at a time.

Phew.. my eyes are sore already and I haven't gotten past #3 yet.

and as for commenting.. sometimes I do.. and sometimes I don't.. all depends on how pressed for time I am.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Growing Pains*
> 
> HELP ! I've fallen and I can't catch up!
> 
> ...


Wow Deb, I think I'd have a hard time just keeping up with your steps! I am a big fan of the Pulse button and that's how I determine what to read . . . but by the time I get to page 3, page 1 has changed dramatically. Oh the joys of too much stuff.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*What's in a Name*

Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."

Now this is simply my observation, but I've seen it often enough for it to make an impression. The question is, "Why is that?" Does "art" mandate non-traditional? If utility is the objective of a piece, can it still be "art?"

This second question is the result of viewing many beautiful art pieces that seem terribly impractical and it would appear that their purpose is to look pretty. Nothing wrong with pretty, but it frequently is separated from utility.

But back to the original question. It seems to me that an artist would need to be an accomplished craftsman. Can someone be an accomplished craftsman without being an artist? Is there really a difference between the two?

Oh the dangers of an idle mind …


----------



## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


I've always thought that art was in the design and craft was in the execution.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


You know you are an artist when you spend weeks on a project…a little carving…lots of thinking….redesigning…to create a masterpiece and the first time you go to move it the leg breaks in half…but darn it it looked good!


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


I think they are one in the same. It all comes down to the person looking/using the piece.


----------



## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Russel,

Dan hit it squarely on the head. So I'll expand on it a bit. There is indeed a difference in artist and the craftsman. But first, let's use the term artisan for craftsman. The difference is that the artist is a "creator" while the artisan is a highly accomplished craftsman. Thomas Chippendale was an artist AND an artisan, he created his pieces from the stew of his skill set, experience and cognition. He used other artisans to help him realize his fantastic works of "useful" as well as decorative art in order to make a living and at the same time, elevate the world of furniture design. So you can argue that the artist is *the *designer and as such he is the point of origin for the work of art.

For another example of "useful" art, we can use the example of wooden boat building. The guy who designs it is the artist as he "created" it in his mind *first*. It might be derivative as boats are nothing new and ultimately it is the differences incorporated in the finished work that push out on the envelope of what we think of as merely a boat and instead elevates our sensibilities to place it in the canon of "art." Without an artist's guiding vision the beautiful boat would simply not exist.

Now, without the artisan, the artist though brilliant at design might not have the actual skill set to build said beautiful boat. For the artist's vision to reach fruition, he needs the artisan and his skill set. The artisan is the practical guy in the room. His impetus is to build and accomplish what the designer intends with all its problems and prospects. Problems with a design are usually handled as feedback from the artisan, the guy getting dirty actually doing the "work" of art.

So in short, the artist creates while the artisan *realizes* what the artist has created. In many of the arts, the artist/artisan relationship is a symbiotic one and sometimes hard to distinguish especially when the two inhabit the same person. Now if you're wondering "what" art is then you'll have to steep yourself in the stuff to come away with a satisfying answer. Ultimately it's like what one of our Supreme Court justices said when asked about defining what pornography is, "I'm not sure how to define it BUT I know it when I see it."

I hope this sheds a smidgen of light on the subject.

always,
J.C.


----------



## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Russel, I do answer this in my blog. We work with our hands, so to ourselves we are "craftsmen". To the layman we are "artists". To some artists we are "artists". *BUT* seldom does our stuff hang on a wall … aah, the true sign of an artist…..... If it has function …. *IT MIGHT NOT BE ART ???* I'm soooo confused…...

*THAT DIDN'T HELP … huh*


----------



## eklectic (Jan 30, 2008)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


*Hi Russel*
Can someone be an accomplished craftsman without being an artist? Is there really a difference between the two?

You can know the techniques,copy from the plans and enjoy to see something grow by your own hand: that is the craftsman.

The artist is the one that not only knows the techniques, but dreams of what he will do with this technique and how he will use that technique to reach his goal. And his goal is definitely not a copy!

An artist will have a vision that is different from the craftsman! And if the two are within the same person, so much the better!


----------



## brianm (Feb 16, 2008)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Craftsman may refer to:


A master craftsman is an artisan who practices a handicraft or trade (profession) (the term craftswoman is also used and a craftman's work exhibits craftsmanship; the shop is a craftsmanshop)

An artisan, also called a craftsman,[1] is a skilled manual worker who uses tools and machinery in a particular craft.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the older broad meanings of the term "artist,"


A learned person or Master of Arts (now rather obsolete)
One who pursues a practical science, traditionally medicine, astrology, alchemy, chemistry (also obsolete)
A follower of a pursuit in which skill comes by study or practice - the opposite of a theorist
A follower of a manual art, such as a mechanic - partly obsolete
One who makes their craft a fine art
One who cultivates one of the fine arts - traditionally the arts presided over by the muses - now the dominant usage

Bottom line you can call yourself anything that makes you feel good.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Most interesting comments folks. I'm fascinated by how each of us sees things.

Dennis, I laughed hard when I read, "but darn it looked good." There have been a few times in my experience where function and fashion were in conflict.

Odie, your assistance was … well … it was your assistance. ;-)

And Brian, you said, "you can call yourself anything that makes you feel good" and I'll tell you, I tried calling myself Harrison Ford, and while I felt better, it really didn't change much of anything.

Good stuff folks.


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## Frank (Nov 19, 2006)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Hello Russel;
--hmmm, kinda of like asking whats in your name or my name….?

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title:-Romeo, doff thy name;
And for that name, which is no part of thee,Take all myself."

*Romeo and Juliet, II, ii (47-49)*

Thinking about this here and so I'll just add a thought. You have asked or implied that, "*If utility is the objective of a piece….*" and so I will ask a question? If one talks about artist-art and craftsman-craft….where and why, how, did the word 'utility' enter in? Do wood projects have to 'fit in' and be user friendly at being utility?

It would seem that you are comparing 'contemporary woodworks' with 'traditional woodworks' and this is leaving out so much of what woodworking is all about.

I don't usually make 'utility' woodworks, but there's no-thing wrong if one wants to. I have never found much money in the selling of woodworks that fit into the utility category of woodworking. I call my wood pieces by name and this has nothing to do with 'pretty', but folks will pay high end money….'crazy money' to have 'one of a kind' pieces of 'wood art'.

When a customer connects with a table or bench that I have created, they have a one of a kind. Most of these pieces will go into private libraries and rooms in their homes and offices, where they become a matter of viewing for individuals with taste-full eyesight. When I name a wood piece….that piece becomes a work of art by the one who created the piece. What good is a piece of art that has no-name….and therefore no-character? I name my wood pieces as characters of 'wood art' and yes this not so much as to separate them from 'utility' woodworks, but to market them for high end work.

As one famous artist once told me; " Frank, that piece of sculpture is you….when some-one buys your art, they're not only buying the wood sculpture, but their buying your name along with it…." Yes, there is a lot in a name and in naming my 'wood art', I also expect to make a good sale. After all, some of the benches and tables will never be sat upon, and no-ones going to put a cup of coffee on a table that costs some …...... of dollars…., (at least thats what they tell me before and afterwards) but they will and do enjoy the wood all the same.

Well just some thoughts I'm throwing out here….and yes, only my 'two cents' worth….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank 
RusticWoodArt

email is:
[email protected]


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Frank, whenever you have something to say on a subject it always has a melody all it's own. And there's always something worth reading.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Russel, I just figured why not getting this…. You speak of melody … that's it! Your not reading mine to the melody from the TV commercial, "There ain't no gugs on me …...". You'll get now I'm sure of that, cuz yer smart. (with tongue way in cheek … we have fun huh?)


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Great. Now I'll have that tune in my head all day.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


i believe that an artist is more someone who does something that really no people have done before and kind of has their own style. an artist is also a craftsman but a craftsman is someone who knows the craft well be more follows the craft doing reproductions or pieces that have already been done or the style has already been establishes. to make the pass from a craftsman to an artist in my opinion is to start to do something with your own style that is out of the ordinary. a good contrast i think is Norm Abram as a craftsman as he knows woodworking well with David Marks as an artist as he really goes by his own style and really out of the ordinary pieces. i hope that makes sense!


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## AdMarkGuy (Jan 1, 2008)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


I think today most people view the terms as interchangeable . . . An artist pursues his craft; a craftsman hopes to develop art.

However, I think a craftsman creates a drawing (blueprint, plan) and builds from that engineering. This sometimes results in Art. Crafts in most cases are functional, and use becomes objective, its artist value is subjective.

An artist creates not from an engineering but from the mind and his emotions, it is always art -many times bad art, still art. Most times art is not functional, and in most cases it is subjective to the beholder, its use becomes objective.

Now the meat: The true definitions were created in the Middle Ages and defined how much people were taxed. While, the Roman Empire and even the Egypt and Babylon civilizations had both - The real definitive answer comes from the Middle Ages and the Feudal System - a craftsman (furniture builder, blacksmith, glass blower) was taxed as the working class. While, artists held a higher position in society, and in fact were not taxed - Many times their work was done gratis for the church and Feudal lords, primarily for exhibition and statements of the upper class wealth and power. Paintings, sculture, music were developed this way.

During the "dark ages" the arts died - Many artists were impoverished and tried to develop a craft that resembled their art.

Later the terms started to co-mingle and be used as interchangeable labels. An artist may pursue his craft and a craftsman hopes to develop art.

Today much of the craft of certain periods is considered period art and is pursued by craftsmen. Wood, pottery, even jewlery fit this type of constant. Frank Lloyd Wright prime example, art, craft or business ??

One thing to notice: NOT much has changed when it comes to taxes!

PS: During the Chinese dynasties these terms took on a very different meaning -


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *What's in a Name*
> 
> Just a little musing here; nothing of consequence; merely a curiosity. It seems that those that create contemporary woodworks are often referred to as "artists" while those that create more traditional works are considered "craftsmen."
> 
> ...


Now that's cool, a history lesson. A little musing reveals some pretty interesting stuff.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*The Value of a Pro*

For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.

A while ago, I had a conversation with a friend who was considering home-schooling. He believed that because he and his wife had college educations they were more than qualified to teach academic subjects through high school. My response was to tell him the story of my own, misguided, attempt to equate myself to the pros based on slightly related experience.

I had been in a couple bands in high school and even took extended course work in music theory. While performing with a community choir, I had the opportunity to perform with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra-- that was cool. However, when we got to rehearsal, I found that the pros are expected to know, not learn. The conductor went through the score and said, "At measure 127 I want a slight increase in the horn section, okay, let's hear it." We did about 10 measures and then it was on to the next piece. We never went through the whole program. It was assumed that we knew and to go through it in detail was a waste of time.

Here on LumberJocks, there has been a bit of conversation about what pros do, or should do. For the most part, I've tried to keep my nose clean (and it has been hard), since I ain't no pro. How the pros use the site is not my call, but one for Martin and those he looks to for input. And, until the pros start telling me I'm not welcome here, I'll hang around because you can't do better than learning from a pro.

The professional has authority to say things that I cannot say. I do things that work for me and some of those things are good and some of those things are less than desirable. However, I have no real risk. I have no reputation and what I do is for my enjoyment and education. The pros on the other hand have not only their reputation, but their livelihood on the line. The result of this situation is an awareness of consequences that I need not concern myself with. An experienced professional wil typically encounter more situations and oddities than any hobbyist. Unless they're stupid and arrogant, this gives the pros a distinct advantage and an acquired wisdom that deserves deference on my part.

The professionals on LumberJocks add a legitimacy to the site that does not exist in hobby forums. The professionals provide wisdom that can only be had by engaging risk. The professionals speak with authority that most of us can only dream of. I, for one, appreciate the pros.


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## trifern (Feb 1, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Nicely said Russel. I enjoy having the pros around too. I certainly need as much help as I can get.


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Russel, I'd like to share a story.
In the town where I grew up there was a low clearance railroad trestle over Main Street. One day a pulp wood truck, stacked a little higher than it should have been, came down Main St. and got itself stuck under that railroad trestle. Well, this was a big to-do in our little town, since nothing much ever happened there. They had the Mayor, the Fire Chief, Police Chief, Public Works Supervisor, Railroad Maintenance Supervisor, and just about anybody else that thought they might have an educated idea on how to get this truck out assembled there. They talked about jacking the trestle up or cutting a section out. They tried to figure out how they could get some of the load off the truck and move it out. This went on for about an hour. About that time a young boy on a bicycle came riding by. He stopped and watched for about a minute, while everyone was scratching their heads. He waited for a lull in the conversation and said " Let the air out of the tires." Then he rode off. All the "educated folks looked at each other, with their red faces, wondering why they hadn't thought of that.
So the moral of the story is: No matter who you are, nobody is to insignificant to have an opinion not 
worth listening to.


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## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


I know I will never have the competence of a pro. I have a desire to attain the highest level I can as a hobbiest, and this site continues to be head, shoulders, armpits and waistlines above any other site. The pros here are willing to observe, comment, and suggest on any topic. Good post Russel.


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## manilaboy (Aug 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


I'd like to think that's what the pro's in Lumberjocks are. Real pro's. One who takes the time to teach everything he has learned over the years. One who is willing to impart his knowledge to others and he himself enjoys and takes great satisfaction and pride in doing so. One who will answer any question no matter how insignificant or trivial you might think it is. One who does not look down on anybody because in his heart he knows he had gone through the same path. He was also an apprentice once. He also had a mentor before him. That's my pro.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, Russel, you make some good points, and I agree with some of them, but agree to disagree with some as well.

"Until the pros start telling me I'm not welcome here…" First of all, I don't want anybody to think that this website is or ever was designed *just* for "Pros." Lumberjocks is a community of people interested in discussing, learning, teaching, or just exploring woodworking as an art form, hobby, vocation, passion, or necessary skill. (Just had to make that clear in case any newcomers read your post.)

The main point I disagree with is the automatic assumption that pro woodworkers always know more than "amateur" woodworkers. I have encountered many instances to the contrary. What does it mean to be a professional woodworker? Well, it means that you must make a profit from your work. And how do you make a profit? Well, in my opinion you must at least be either very good, or very efficient (or both).

Now the funny thing about being efficient, is that a lot of "professional woodworkers" that I have come across have defaulted to the very efficient category by learning a trade, figuring out what works (or what the market demands) and sticking to it.

Do I really need a disclaimer here to point out that I am not talking about all pro woodworkers? Well I guess I'd better include it anyway… I'm not talking about all pro woodworkers. There are a lot of pro woodworkers who I know personally who are extraordinary craftsman and are truly an inspiration to me… I will always look up to them. (And besides, if you are a pro woodworker on Lumberjocks, I immediately have immense respect for you. So if you are reading this, you can't get mad at me.)

But what I am talking about are the thousands of run-of-the-mill Big Box store cabinet factory workers, carpenters, Ikea-like furniture makers, and such all across the world who make a great living as a "professional woodworker" but don't know the difference between a dado and a dovetail, and couldn't cut one with a handsaw to save their lives… because the don't have to.

The hobbiest, on the other hand, does woodworking because he/she is passionate about it. And for many, that means reading every single piece of literature including books, magazines, movies, journals, catalogs, and websites. It means constantly craving information to no end.

I once (actually several times) visited a cabinet shop because I was so enamored by the thought of a professional woodworker. But I left in such disappointment. It was so different than my world of woodworking. The shop was dirty and unorganized. His shop was filled with expensive and apparently abused machinery. With his young assistant helping, he ran a router around a large arc of mahogany to profile the edge. As it reached the apex, the grain clearly switched directions. I felt myself start to ask… but he was the pro. He knew what he was doing. He had been doing this for thirty years. I was the kid, and I was going to learn what it was all about…. Well that mahogany exploded as it caught the router bit in a climb cut. He spent a few moments cursing and then muttered that maybe it was time that I left.

He was the professional. He had built a successful and profitable business from his trade. There was no reason for him to spend long hours into the night reading books and magazines and blogging on Lumberjocks. He got the job done and got paid.

You said yourself that "I have no real risk. I have no reputation and what I do is for my enjoyment and education." This is exactly what empowers you. Pro's may not have (or take) the opportunity to take a risk and learn something, or try something different. A lot of the time they have to stick to what they know is quick and profitable, which is very limiting.

Now I know I am getting controversial. Please refer again to my above disclaimer. As far as putting the "pro" on a pedestal, some are and some aren't. You just can't assume that because they make money doing something, that they have more authority on the subject than the passionate "amateur."

By the way, Translated from its French origin to the English "lover of", the term "amateur" reflects a *voluntary motivation to work as a result of personal passion for a particular activity.* (Wikipedia)


----------



## jwlegal (Apr 9, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


I guess you guys have covered both ends of the topic. What I think each of you is saying is that you welcome someone to the site that is human. Someone who does not think himself better than others yet knows his ability and is willing to share his knowledge. Someone who does not think himself less than others because he seeks a knowledge and understanding that others have already gained. 
Both willing to seek and share. Both desiring to improve ….one by helping someone else and in the process gaining fresh knowledge and insight….the other by being helped and reaching toward a goal of self improvement as well as gaining skill and ability.

I haven't been on this site long but have quickly learned that the comments are always positive, always aimed at helping and improving. Sure some times making a point may be a little, "controversial." But the point being made is not a personal attack, but rather a thought provoking observation hoping that all consider their own personal goals with, perhaps, a little somber reflection to insure we are all headed in the right direction.

Thank each of you for the postings, projects, comments, and time taken to share. It is so rare to find an individual willing to share, much less a web site filled with individuals with similar goals willing to share the ups and the downs in reaching toward making something using hard work, study, sharing, the level of ability attained at that time and the wood that God provided for us to use. Wonder what ever came of the carpender that was chosen to raise, and teach, Jesus. That task had to be given to a woodworker!


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts guys, though I think I should clarify something. I didn't mean to imply that pros were necessarily more skilled and smarter than hobbyists, just more credible. For example, if Bob builds something 10 times and Tom builds something once, the reasonable conclusion is that Bob has a better idea of what's involved than Tom. If I had to choose who to believe, I choose Bob. He may be wrong, but the odds are against it.

And, I think many of the pros here have said that the priority of the professional is making a living. And to make a living, you'll either need a really big market where you can run away from your mistakes, or you need to be competent enough to be asked to do it again. Efficiency and quality do not have to be mutually exclusive. Keeping the two in balance is the mark of a successful pro. To my understanding, if you emphasize one over the other, and you are either a starving artist, or just starving.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Can anyone explain to me why folks join a forum such as this and the first thing they do is ask a technical question regarding purchase of tools and equipment and then qualify the potential answers by putting very low budget in place.
Most of us realize that it just can't be done with the bottom end junk out there yet we are constantly asked to evaluate it.

Where would most of us get that experience?

Would it help to have a "recommended list"?
Would they bother to look at it or just burn up more bandwidth anyway?
Would a newby section take some of the burden off the forum?

Think about 4300 members and over 200,000 responses.

Bob


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Bob, I think the one work answer to your question would be "newbie". Some folks don't really want to get into something by investing a lot of money in it, then find out it's not their bag. Maybe when you first started making furniture or whatever, you bought exotic wood from Tasmania, but I started out making stuff out of pine and poplar, then moved up to flat sawn wood, then finally to the more expensive wood. There's a learning curve for most people and some aren't willing to pay much to find out what's involved until they know they will make it around. I used to run into the "Trust Fund Babies" up in Maine, that figured if you threw enough money at the hobby you would become a world renown furniture maker, accepted and loved by all. I found that they could buy friends that could get them some connections, but some of their work was much to write home about.
People don't like to admit that they don't have a clue about how to start something, so that's where the waffling comes in. If we're here to help, then either don't waste your time answering their post or have a little patience with them.
Ok, I'm off my soap box.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Hi Tenontrim:
I agree with what you are saying.
That does not, however make those of us already committed to the craft experts on the latest entry level tools and equipment.
Generally our first experiences were several years ago and not even relative to the question.
Suffice it to say that if anybody goes to a website and or a physical store with a calculator in hand they can quickly qualify themselves for this hobby or craft or profession.
I'm not suggesting that newbies should not ask questions before taking up this sport but asking questions about questionable junk that's cheap doesn't really get the answers they are looking for either.

I guess I don't want to respond when my answer is boxed in by a ridiculous budget.

Bob


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## tenontim (Feb 24, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


I hear you, Bob. It amazes me too, when someone gets 10 or 12 good answers to a question, and one from left field that almost doesn't even qualify as valid, and they say they are going with the odd ball. Sometimes, even though it can be dangerous, the only way people learn is by their mistakes. Oh, well. That's why they have the "Darwin Award" every year.


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## jjohn (Mar 26, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


We here are all examples of wood workers from no knowledge to experts, and the questions asked would naturally range from no clue, to I already know everything and don't have to ask any questions. Because of such a mixture the inexperienced to "Pro's" The pro's must remember that the inexperienced will in fact ask questions that are sometimes off based. That is probably what intrigues me most about Lj's. It's the first forum I have ever belonged to that you don't have to fear asking one of those questions because the rest are all nice enough and wise enough to understand and simple try to help. And by the way…some of the most beauitful carvings I have ever seen were cut from and old cheap pocket knife.


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## odie (Nov 20, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Russel, Thank You and sorry it took me so long to find this. I couldn't agree more with most of everything that has been said here. Blake, I hope I'm not in that category just knocking "them" out to sell. Although it feels that way sometimes.

About me … I worked for "Ma Bell" for more than thirty years, and most of it in Truckee (23 years). It was miserable sometimes at 6000' or higher in 20 feet of snow, but I loved it. I was considered one of the best at what I did (cable splicing) and even taught it for awhile. The politics of that got to me after awhile and I went back to the tools. Since the age of 10 I have been a woodworker and grabbed every trick, idea, or tool I could find. Some of the guys at work would buy my jewelry boxes at cost from me, at Christmas, for their wives. That gave me an Idea for when I retired … WORK FOR ME and not someone else … and woodworking chose ME. The phone company made that decision for me two years earlier than I planned with a "golden handshake". That was five years ago, and I've never looked back.

Now I am faced with those "politics" again. In fact they almost drove me away from LumberJocks. But, I love to share my knowledge, and some think too much. "He uses his web site for profit here." NO HE DOESN'T … he uses it for two reasons. I designed it and I'm proud of it. It also helps you get to know me.

Since I have been here some of you so called "amateurs" have put me to shame with your talent. I just happen to have a knack for using a certain jig. I'm here for "FUN" and this serious crap is starting to get to me. That's why my comments are ending. This is a six day old blog, so what I wrote will not be read much … thank God.

OH *jjohn* there really is no such thing as a stupid question … honest.


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## unknownwoodworker (Apr 5, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


I keep running into you Odie. Thanks I kind of like that.


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## acanthuscarver (Mar 27, 2008)

Russel said:


> *The Value of a Pro*
> 
> For about 5 years I made my living fixing computer systems for businesses who's owner's nephew knew something about computers. More often than not, my task was to take the work of a hobbyist and revise it for a professional environment. Contrary to what many believe, there is a vast difference between a professional computer person and a person who fiddles with their home system. Home and work are two different worlds.
> 
> ...


Russell,

From a pro, thank you for your blog post. I made the same points in a conversation I had with Adam Cherubini a couple of months ago. His response was "that's not fair". I fully understand his point that an amateur may have tons of ability and talent but the reality of the situation is I've had a lot more "practice". Does that mean I think there is no way an amateur can carve a ball and claw foot as well as me? No. In fact, I'm sure there are those that can do it better. Does it mean that an amateur should "expect" he can do it as consistently and expeditiously as I can? The chances are, he or she can't. It's not a matter of a pro being dramatically more talented, it's a function of repetition. Does that make the observation you and I share 'unfair' as Adam thought? I don't think so. I've seen immensely talented amateurs but they lack the ability to "produce" an object in a fashion where their quality is at their peak while also being able to make a living doing it. It's purely a matter of practicing with a deadline. Nothing hones your skills more than having to keep your quality level at the highest possible level while doing in a timely manner so you can pay the rent. This is exactly what you discovered in your orchestra analogy.

As a pro, I'm here because woodworking is my passion. I also am passionate about teaching others how to become the best they can be. Here, and in the classes I teach, I see people with massive desire, talent and skills. Using my ball and claw foot analogy, an amateur may be passionate and have the ability to turn out a single foot but what happens when he moves to the second or third? Can I help that person get a better result by telling them about the little tips and tricks I learned or developed over the years of carving hundreds of ball and claw feet? You bet I can. I've seen it happen in person in my classes. People who have never carved anything before leaving my shop with beautiful cabriole legs. The likes of which I would be happy to put into a piece of furniture for one of my clients.

Which brings me to the reputation part of things. Every day I put myself and my reputation on the line. I do it with every commission, every class and every single Lumberjocks post. And as long as you "amateurs" aren't telling me I'm not welcome here anymore, I'll keep doing it…gladly.

Odie, I know this is an older post but I'm with you brother.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*I Need More Time*

Douglas Bordner posted his first marquetry project and it was not only impressive, but motivational.

The second pen-turners swap is under way and I am enjoying watching it as much as the first one.

Intarsia, veneering, bending, carving, bowls, spindles … All fascinating stuff. I have never done any of it. But I'd like to and Doug's marquetry just reminded me of all the skills and techniques that I still have to learn. And brings me to just one more reason to continue to come to this site.

Since being here I've been introduced to so many different things that can be done with wood. I've seen projects that run the gamut of skill and interest. I have been shown so many things that I want to try and so many skills that I'd like to add to my short list that I have been forced to realize that even with Daylight Saving Time, there are not enough hours in the day to do what I want to do.

Now I've been told that if I lower my expectations, my satisfaction will increase dramatically. I'm not buying it.

So, the point of this particular ramble is to tip my hat to the LumberJocks here who continue to present skills, techniques and ideas that keep me moving forward in my woodworking development.

Oh yeah, there's a lot of really good jokes here too.


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## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *I Need More Time*
> 
> Douglas Bordner posted his first marquetry project and it was not only impressive, but motivational.
> 
> ...


I echo you my friend.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *I Need More Time*
> 
> Douglas Bordner posted his first marquetry project and it was not only impressive, but motivational.
> 
> ...


All going points Russell. It's hard to see all this talent and not want to inch your own skills up a bit.


----------



## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Russel said:


> *I Need More Time*
> 
> Douglas Bordner posted his first marquetry project and it was not only impressive, but motivational.
> 
> ...


And don't forget all the folks who produce and post incredible videos to help us inch (or centimetre up here in the great white north  ) up our skills. WHat's that quote…something to the effect 'a man's reach should exceed his grasp else what's a heaven for'... maybe works for woodworking as well. My apologies for not remembering who said this.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*

How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?

And then there are the prizes. I realized as I was entering my project that I didn't even know what I was competing for. When the challenge was announced I didn't pay attention to the prize list. Why bother if I wasn't going to win? Yet, since I did enter I figured that I should probably see what I was competing for and if it was something that I could even use in my shop (Yeah all tools are good tools, but some I simply don't use).

It occurred to me that if I wasn't the only one who didn't expect to win, then I probably wasn't the only one who didn't know what the prizes were. Then I had to ask myself, "Self, why are you competing if winning isn't in the picture?" After all, the purpose of a competition is to determine a winner. And, if it's clear that won't be you, why bother?

And the answer is, "Because."

Because in my time here there is a certain peer pressure, a certain temptation. Those whose skills exceed mine are constantly pressuring me to be better. Some overtly, but most with expert subtlety. You know the line, they say things like, "Great job," or "You're getting better," or other such encouragements that lead you down the path of improvement. You mention your mistakes and they take it in stride telling you that next time it will be even better, all the while convincing you that you can acquire the skills necessary. There are quite a few "pushers" here who addict you to quality and improvement.

And then come the challenges. You see the challenge and as a result of all the positive talk, you believe you can do it. You believe that you can participate and meet the requirements of the challenge. You know your skills do not match the masters, but you believe you can accomplish the task set before you.

As it turns out, that's the best part of these challenges; the opportunity to exercise your new found skill and confidence. The objective (for me at least) is not necessarily to win, but to compete honorably. To be able to do what has been asked of you. The prizes are for someone else, but the challenge is for all.

So while I don't expect to win, I've had the opportunity to participate. I've entered because I wanted to show me that I had progressed. It's actually a pretty good feeling.


----------



## AlNavas (Oct 16, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Russell,

It is wonderful to know you have progressed - and the good feeling that goes with it. Neil Lamens, of Furnitology Productions fame, believes that the BEST thing we can do to get better is to "...build, build, build…" I think you are saying the same thing!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


doesn't it feel great to complete a project for the challenges presented here?

Entering says, "See? I took up the challenge and I did it."

Soon after I first joined I was challenged to enter the Thorsen Table Challenge.. Yah, me.. build a table .. when I was just learning about.. well-everything!! But I did take the challenge. And I did make a table. And I do love my table. Did I "win"? You bet I did-I won my own personal challenge to try, to do, to learn and to participate. 
At that point I decided that I would participate in all the challenges because it would force me to try something new, and to do better than "good enough".

Nice blog Russel. Thank you


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


*Thanks for sharing your thoughts Russel!*

Its like that old saying.

*Winning isn't everything!*


----------



## KevinHuber (Jul 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Russel, I couldn't have said it better. I still don't know what the prizes are. I may have to go back to the front page and just find out though. Like you, it is not about winning for me as much as participating.


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Right on, Russel. I've entered the contest, but not to win. To be honest, I don't even have any idea what the prizes are - I was just pumped to have an entry!


----------



## lazyfiremaninTN (Jul 30, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


I am putting the finishing touches on a serving tray for the contest. The reason I will be entering, is because I needed to challeng myself. I would not have been motivated enough on my own to make something like that and I think I had to call Greg 15-20 times, down from my usual 30-40 times….LOL.

I truely hope that I win, however, I didn't enter for the prizes (god knows that I'll never use them for thier intended use) but for the self-gratification that "I DID IT".


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


The agreement here validates my appreciation of this site and the people here. The goal is not superiority of one over another, but accomplishment of all. The fact that the people here want to better themselves and others makes this place truly unique.


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## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


I too enjoy the challenge to build something a little out of my reach thereby building my skill set.

However . . . I would also love to have the router bit set to help build my selection.

Good observation Russel.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Well, I certainly wouldn't refuse a prize. ;-)


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


I have been here 400 days as of today. I have seen people's skills growing as time goes by, myself included.

As Zuki says "I too enjoy the challenge to build something a little out of my reach". That's what I try to do.
I do that by trying things that I have never done before.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


I think it an opportunity for people to show ideas of similar subjects , kinda like mingling the ideas and sharing our work with others who can appreciate it more then the average joe could.

oh yeah … and dont forget to vote for me  lol

But most than all it's the *PARTICIPATION* that counts. Being a part of something with everyone. Keeping this community alive and rockin'!


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Thanks Russel. Well put.
I totally agree. Almost all of my woodworking is just because. It's a love, a hobby, a fun way to spend time. Thanks again for putting it in writing.

Steve


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## manilaboy (Aug 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


The Olympics will be on in a few days. It's nice to see that the olympic spirit has not died down. At least here in Lumberjocks.

"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

I am still having goose bumps whenever I read that paragraph. I think I should throw in my junk into that contest. LOL


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## 2 (Feb 26, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


*LumberJocks Olympics Spirit* - that's exactly what you can feel here, manilaboy.
Well said everybody.. and nice encouragement to keep improving the Awards!


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Summer Challenge - Why? - Just Because*
> 
> How many of us *expect* to win these challenges? Based on what I've read here, that's hard to tell. But, also based on what I've read here, there are many that expect to *not win*, myself included. That observation struck me as interesting; why enter if you won't win?
> 
> ...


Russell: A fitting series of staements that show the true spirit of LumberJocks. Not that I can do something better than you but that I can do something better than I've ever done it before.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*The Spirit of LumberJocks*

It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.

Today I had the opportunity to share a meal with Marc and Nicole Spagnuolo.

It was nothing like I expected.

With Marc being an internet celebrity and Nicole being a national beauty, I was at first surprised that they would be willing to meet and spend time with a silly old man. This surprise was seeded by the fact that last time I made the trip from Detroit to Phoenix they were conveniently "out of town." Nevertheless, through constant badgering and basic begging they consented to meet at a neutral and public location.

I expected them to be cordial and polite. I expected conversations about the weather and travel. My expectations were met. Then things got interesting.

As it turns out, the Spanuolo's are cordial and polite, AND downright friendly, pleasant, easy to talk to and quite interesting. After asking to meet Marc, I had second thoughts figuring he might be busy this holiday season and my personal request was a bit of an intrusion. Yet, Marc and Nicole said something along the lines of, "Hey, how 'bout we meet up for lunch?"

Conversation covered pretty much anything, and it was fun and intelligent. The time went beyond cordial and polite to friendly and personal (not too personal, just enough). As time went on I enjoyed their company more and the encounter became my best experience in Phoenix, second only to spending time with my kids and grandkids.

Today I had the opportunity to meet Marc and Nicole Spagnuolo and it was nothing like I expected … It was worlds better.


----------



## NicoleSpag (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


awe shucks Russell you made me blush  It was really great meeting you too and I'm really glad you asked us again! (I wonder where we were the first time you came through town) Hope you have a great new year and thank you so much for lunch!!!


----------



## thewoodwhisperer (Dec 11, 2006)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


I have to say, I was really hoping I would be considered the "national beauty" Damn…. 

It was a great lunch with some great company. Thanks again Russel. Keep the wood chips flyin' my friend!


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


Russel Glad you got to meet up with a couple of LumberJocks. I wonder if that qualifies as a picnic.


----------



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


Russel . . . even though you have strayed far from home, you have not stayed far from LJs. 

Karson. . . I would vote yes. Any time more than 2 LJs meet and there is some sort of food involved should be considered a picnic.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


Karson, BBQ was involved, so unless a game of horse shoes is required I'm pretty sure this could fall under the picnic category.

Zuki, with LJs all over the world, it difficult to anywhere without finding one. It's been said before and worth saying again, the sun never sets on LumberJocks.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


Yay! :^D


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


Well then. Maybe the last LJ picnic of the current year.

I'm meeting Greg3G on Friday at a woodworking show along with a few other people. So maybe we'll be the first picnic of the new year.

Of course I ended today with a Christmas meal with 6 lumberjocks. All in the family of course.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Russel said:


> *The Spirit of LumberJocks*
> 
> It's been said by others at various time and diverse places, that the folks on LumberJocks are the best to be found on the internet. Here's my take on that.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail head on Russel, when you said LJs are a great bunch of people.

*A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!* *<(;0)#*


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Odds and Ends*

The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.

First, let me say that hand tool work is hard. I'm making a few tables and thought it was a good opportunity to practice flattening the tops using my planes. And, when all was said and done, they were definitely better than when I've relied on my power sanders. HOWEVER, when I was done, my arms and shoulders were quite sore. Apparently planes don't cut through wood as easily as it looks; they require someone to push them. And the repetitive pushing causes a bit of a strain on the old muscles. So while the result is desirable, it's a lot of work.

Second, hand sanding has become very theraputic for me. I find I enjoy the simplicity of it and the rhythm that accompanies the process. Well, at least until my hand cramps up. Still I've found that as I sand, I get a hint of when I'm ready to move to the next grit by the sound the sandpaper produces as it moves across the wood. As the wood begins approaches the point where it's time to change, the pitch of the abrasive get a little bit higher and a little bit softer. It's almost as if the wood is saying, "I'm ready for the next step."

Finally, have you ever wondered what you look like to someone else while you're working? While cleaning out some mortises with a chisel a picture of my grandfather working at his bench came to mind. I wondered if people saw me working would they think of a meticulous older man fiddling with a part to get it to fit just right? Or, would they just see me hunched over tapping a chisel into a piece of wood? I'd like to think of myself as that meticulous fella, but sometimes I think I'm just some guy pounding on wood.

So as it turns out, this whole woodworking experience is more than just making stuff, but an opportunity to let the mind wander a bit.


----------



## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


Russell - I very much understand your musings. There is something about feeling the wood right under your hand that is very relaxing and enjoyable.

I too have wondered what I would look like to someone watching me. I prefer to think I'm the meticulous one to be admired for working with her hands. But I don't ever ask so as to not bust my own bubble.


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


So as it turns out, this whole woodworking experience is more than just making stuff, but an opportunity to let the mind wander a bit.

Very profound my friend.


----------



## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


Do you think that Michaelangelo mused as he worked hundreds of hours using hand tools and sanding and chipping away….......did he know the perfection of his work or did he know every little flaw that in his work, because he knew that perfection doesn't really exist?
As you move into the zone of no thought and just being with your work, seeming like it's hardly even you doing the work, but the work is being done thru you…....the tools, the wood and you all become one. How could you ask for more peace, when you criticizing mind takes a rest and lets you just love your work, that's why we keep coming back for more….....................yoda


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more. While most people find sanding tedious, as you said in this post it is a time when you do not need to mentally focus on the task and can use the time to "let your mind wander"- in a vein similar to mowing the grass (which I also enjoy, by the way). With sanding you can get immediate feedback on your efforts. Basically you are taking rough wood and transforming it into a piece that feels "smooth as glass". Which reminds me I had planned on sanding a cabinet top today. Thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


More great inspiration from Russel. Thanks, buddy.


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


Russel: Last night as I was sitting at me Table Saw/Work surface I was using a 1/4" chisel and cleaning out mortise holes in preparation of glueing in some ebony plugs. I was thinking - "This is nice, This is quiet."

Then it was back to the power sander to make more pegs. "Dust Mask, Ear Protection, Loud screaming of the power tools" then back to quiet.


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Karson, there is something to be said for the quiet.


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Odds and Ends*
> 
> The last few days in the shop have provided opportunity for some self-observation. My power tools have been ignored while I do some assembly and finishing. And since a piece of sandpaper in my hand to typically pretty safe my mind has been kinda watching me do things.
> 
> ...


every body shhhhhhhhh quiet please


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Does It Really Matter?*

I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.

It may be me, but lately it seems that there have been a number of posts saying that people should be stopped. People should be stopped from posting so many projects. People should be stopped from making so many comments. People should be stopped from greetings newcomers. People should be stopped from commenting on older projects. People should be stopped from posting jokes.

After reading these things I wonder why some folks feel it is so important to stop other folks. I won't deny that I am at time bothered by some of the postings. But hey, it's not my place to police other people who are operating within the rules. And, it takes no time and minimal effort to skip right past those posts that I have no interest in.

Perhaps I am far enough out of the ordinary that I am not affected by the fact the world doesn't conform to my desires. Possibly my life is empty enough that I welcome any input into the abyss. Or, possibly I'm old enough to accept that sometimes I will be inconvenienced. And, surprisingly enough, I will also inconvenience others (if you're reading this, sorry for the inconvenience).

I can honestly say that in my time on LumberJocks, I have never been harmed in any way. I have had to click the 'Next Page' a few times more than I might like, but it certainly didn't hurt me any.

Now, granted, my ego has been smacked a couple times. But, truth be told, it probably really needed it. So, I find it difficult to find any fault in people who might use this site different than I do. After all, the absence of my perfection is on full display.

I guess this is another of those posts about how the site is used, and I guess my real question is, if there is no harm or hardship created, and only very minor inconvenience, does it really matter?


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


well said. This has always been a friendly neighborhood kinda place.


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


and I love it too!


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


we need more inclusion, less rules.
If we help each other, we all win.

Happy Independence Day everyone! - even if you aren't in the US… nothing wrong with celebrating a little independence!


----------



## dhg (Mar 27, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I wasn't inconvenienced Russel, I agree with you. As far as i'm concerned people can post what ever they want. i'll check the thread out and if i'm not interested, it's "move along son, nothing here, move along".

are some of these threads a waste of my time? maybe, but what i get out of this forum much out weighs reading some threads that don't interest me. and just maybe,i might get something out of them.

rich

ps. Russel, let me know the next time you make it up to you lumber guy, maybe i'll hook up with you.


----------



## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Amen,
I think that formatting options given to Martin are fine. He'll either think that their doable or not. And having telemarketers removed is fine too. But, other than that, if people follow the guidelines for posting then the inconvenience is not important. It's as if clicking the mouse to move on to something else was a major inconvenience.


----------



## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Good post.


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


thank you russel :
its thinking ( and expressing ) like this ,
that makes the difference to me .
i love woodworking !
i love knowing people that are interesting .
i've had enough control .
i want more freedom.
i greet some one politely , and get to know them ,
based on who they are , not how they admire me .
woodworking is the marketplace ,
people are the goods ,
sharing is the point


----------



## Ottis (Apr 17, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


*Russel*, good post and well said !!


----------



## bigdave (May 29, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


WELL said. Inclusion and tolerance is what this country is all about. Great post on such an important date as we in the USA celebrate freedom. I'm brand new to this site and loving it. But I do know how to click next!

As for my use of the word "tolerance".* Please* don't mistake it for the seemingly politically correct term being used by the most *IN*-tolerant group of folks . . . . . . . . . nope . . . . . I digress . . . . not the right forum. (Slapping hands as they type!)

Happy 4th of July citizens of the United States of America!!


----------



## OCG (May 17, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Good post, what we don't like is only a click away
Happy Independence Day to all you fine people


----------



## shangrila (Apr 5, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Well said!!!


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Russel, this is a good post. I have always agreed with the philosophy that you are presenting here. Whether it be comments or projects I do not have any problem with the number of posts that any one individual adds, as long as it meets the posting criteria. In general the new members, when they first arrive, will have a backlog of projects to be posted. Let them post. They are enthusiastic about showing their work and sharing these projects with the rest of us.

As Scott said this is an open and friendly place. Let's keep it that way.

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## bamasawduster (Jul 23, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I just posted this on the other page and I'll include it here:

I'm kind of a newbie, since I'm still 20 days short of a year, so I leave decisions like this to the ones who have made this site what it is. I have on a couple of occasions been guilty of posting 3 or 4 projects in a day. Just seems like I get around to shooting them a few at a time, not that I planned it that way.

Here's my two cents worth: I really like this site just as it is. Try to find another site with this much expertise available to answer questions, point out areas for improvement and in general, just encourage one another. No site is perfect, including LJs, but it's by far the best location on the web and I applaud all of you who have made it that way.

To each and every one of you, have a great Fourth. To each of you who have served our country, thanks for making it possible.


----------



## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Well said.
Now, let's hope those who want to limit what others do take the hint.

Lee


----------



## jimc (Mar 6, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Great post, Russel. There is enough control in my life, I certainly don't need it in a forum to which I belong for its enjoyment and knowledge value. Too many "I know what's best for you and by God, you're going to do it" people out there already!

Jim


----------



## Built2Last (Nov 17, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Great post!!!!!!!!!!! It never ceases to amaze me how people can join a site that is better than free,(you don't have to pay for being a member and don't have to buy anything so to me that's better than free) and then complain about it because they don't have a sense of humor and I guess they think everyone else shouldn't. They only make one item a year and think everyone else should only make one (or maybe they make more but are ashamed of them). I could go on and on but you get the idea. Come on people and quit your bitching!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BroDave (Dec 16, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


"People should be stopped from greetings newcomers. People should be stopped from commenting on older projects."

Russel, that wasn't the point or the intent, let me clarify.

No one wants to stop people from welcoming new members, fact is that is one of the nicest things about LJ.
The issue is why welcome someone who has been here for a month or more or that has been here longer than you have, "you" being in the generic sense.

It is like welcoming a new in-law to the family a month after they have arrived. If you didn't welcome them to start with they aren't going to feel any more welcome with a belated greeting.

As for commenting on older posts that isn't the point at all.
Commenting on someones project isn't a problem no matter how long ago it was posted.
The problem comes when someone dredges up an old post that simply asked a question, and received an answer. I have seen this on a post that was 785 days old, really what was the point? Or someone posted about a sale months ago and now someone replies to say the link is dead, is there another link.
Seriously now, that sort of thing would not happen if people would simply look at the date of the original post.

It isn't a matter of being inconvenienced on occasion, the problem is being inconvenienced every day by the same people that force everyone to wade through pages of nonsense just to see if anything new has been posted. I couldn't care less how many posts someone makes or how many jokes are told( I like that, corn pone and all) all I'm saying is, if you are going to welcome month old members then how about doing it via PM and keep from cluttering up the front page.

I don't want to sound crass nor disrespectful but I don't think that is too much to ask of the few serial greeters to be considerate of the other 10,000 members and look at the date someone joined and use the PM feature to welcome them if they have been here more than a week.


----------



## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I commented on the other post that this one was directed at, and I will tell you, I'm fine with people posting humor and posting every project they make if that's what they want to do, but if there is a way to do it that would work better for other members too, then great. Even though it is a free site, there is no harm in asking, and if Martin has time, he can work on it. Or not. That's up to him. I do believe in the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but if there is an obviously better way, then I'm also for change. I see a lot of comments that make me think some people are against change no matter how much sense it makes, or just to spite those who asked for the change. It was really hard not to single out some people that posted here because their comments here look just like their comments on the coffee lounge forum topic, not wanting to change even if it didn't affect them.


----------



## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Read and look at the ones you want, ignore the ones you don't want. Easy.


----------



## bowyer (Feb 6, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Well stated point of view!! Inconvenience is part of life as well as change. How we deal with it is the important thing. Rick


----------



## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I could not of said it any better myself. Thank you Russell!

God Bless
tom


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


people should be stopped if they live in Aphganistan,Nigeria, Congo, Pakistan, Euphoqueastandingmanogram and come free

but here

everyone counts


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


some threads sound like women

and most wome suck at this trade

not all women

just most


----------



## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


and for all you bible thumpers out there

Joseph was the carpenter

Mary was the mother

and Jesus….........knew who the %$#@ was who


----------



## manilaboy (Aug 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Very intelligent post Russel!

Somebody beat me to it. Tolerance is the word. This is a free and open site. Almost anything goes so long as it is related to woodworking and within the boundaries set by the posting rules. Change is Obama's battlecry. I am all for it. But change to accomodate the whim of a particular person or group. No way! Better to leave it the way it is.

This is a "one size fits all" site. If you find it too loose, go find your own tailor.

Rico


----------



## rikkor (Oct 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


You said it much better than I ever could.


----------



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


Yup . . . you said it Russel.


----------



## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I agree Russel I,m still pretty new here about two months our more but that is one of the raise I joined because of the people here and the fact that were all adults here and we act that way.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


You said it brother. Live and let live is my philosophy.


----------



## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Does It Really Matter?*
> 
> I am a fan of LumberJocks. Particularly in it's current form, because it has pretty much been this way since I joined. That was a little more than 9,000 members ago and not quite two years.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*An Inconvenient Idea*

Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.

However, it is what some might call bittersweet.

Generally, each trip is about two weeks. It's long enough to spend quality time with the offspring, but not so long that we become a major bother to them. This is the sweet part.

Yet, these trips also represent about two weeks where I do not have to go to work and have no significant obligations. AND MY SHOP IS ACROSS THE COUNTRY! This would be the bitter part.

Naturally, since I have so much time on my hands, I spend a fair amount of it reading LumberJocks, catching up on other websites and watching tutorial videos.

And I get ideas.

When I get ideas, I want to fiddle with them a bit and experiment. AND MY SHOP IS ACROSS THE COUNTRY!

I could always avoid places like LumberJocks ... Not! So, I find myself making all kinds of notes about things I was to try and things I want to build and end up with an idea backlog. This is the inconvenient part.

I actually have nothing significant to say other than I have too many ideas. And, if you folks wouldn't mind, would you please stop giving me more while I'm on vacation?

Thanks.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


...just one more idea. Check out Ethel. Posted by popsHuckster in projects. You could take your shop with you!


----------



## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


i will start posting dumb things ,
this way you don't have to pay any attention to them .

i don't know if this will help much though ,

as most of my ideas are pretty dumb to begin with (LOL) !


----------



## Kjuly (May 28, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Russel,
No ideas here….
It snowed all day yesterday and the high temperature was 20 degrees.
Bring some sunshine when you head back this way.
Keith


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


why don´t you just build a second shop in Arizona and duble your tool´s 
voila no more trouble with the backlog 

happy new year to you and your´s

Dennis from Denmark


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Just pack it up and move to Arizona. Phoenix is a nice city anyway…


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Stop by Wy-Mont on your way home. We promise not to give you any ideas. Our kids just left and we could use some company.


----------



## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


I have so many Ideas I can't get to them quick enough, and then I get sidetracked and so I don't finish projects on time… oh well.. will be posting a new… for me…. idea soon.


----------



## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Ahh, just wait a few more years. Those idea's won't be a problem. You'll forget them right after you think them up! lol


----------



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


That's the problem with having to much time on your hands.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Too many ideas and not enough hours in a lifetime to get them all done


----------



## scrappy (Jan 3, 2009)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


If you get too lonely for the smell of sawdust, you can allways stop by my place in glendale. I need to clean my shop and you could keep the sawdust. haha

Seriously, Stop by or give a call anytime. Would love the company.

Scrappy


----------



## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

Russel said:


> *An Inconvenient Idea*
> 
> Ever since my kids moved across the country three years ago, the Mrs and I have been making semi-annual trips from Royal Oak, Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona. I honestly enjoy seeing my children and, the fact that there are grandkids with them only makes the trips better.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the woodwhisperer in AZ


----------



## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Non-Woodworkers*

I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.

I recently got a slab of wood from fellow LJ BlueStingRayBoots and finally took it out to the shop to see what it looked like. After I planed off some of the saw marks some really georgeous grain appeared. It was worlds better than I expected.

So I told the wife about it and we started talking about what I should make with it. Her response was classic. She said, "How about something like this, only pretty."

Now, she was pointing at a stool that I made very early on that was less than pretty, but the words were just too funny.

Now, the Mrs. is very supportive of my work, but sometimes, she has a way with words.


----------



## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


I have conversations like that with my wife all the time… the other night we were discussing table designs (in the future I'd like to make us a dining room table), and I showed her a picture of a table that had breadboard ends. She said she didn't like the way they looked, and when I started trying to explain that they serve an important purpose her eyes glazed over before the first sentence was out of my mouth…

Needless to say, the table I build will NOT have breadboard ends…


----------



## Zuki (Mar 28, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


LOL


----------



## woodchic (Mar 17, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


Ok…............ so us women tend to be on the more visual side of the project, instead of the technical part. I have to admit, even though I can build some things, when asked why I made my vanity the way that I did…............I said beause I thought it was pretty, and I got laughed at…........see they didn't realize I designed it and built it…..............I did the technical stuff in my mind and on paper, but vocally I tend to be a woman, I say it as I see it, and build it like I want it…..............................BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY.

AKA…....................Woodchic


----------



## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


Most of my builds are for looks, and I'm a guy! LOL


----------



## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


I hear you. I pulled curly cherry the other night for a mirror that my wife "commissioned". It had some of the nicest curl that I have had the chance to work with. I showed the wood to her after wiping it down with mineral spirits to highlight the grain and all I got was, "That is nice". To tell the truth I don't think she had a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned the curl.


----------



## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


My wife is the same way


----------



## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


I think that is why LJs is so addicting. Complete waste of breath for me to try to explain what I do to those I spend the most time with. I work as a computer systems analyst and I gave up trying to explain my job and my day to everyone. So what do I do? I pick up a hobby so that I have another thing I can't talk about 

Thanks for the observation,

David


----------



## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


Does your wife have my wife's cell #?? ;0)


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


So, did you build her a pretty one ?


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


My wife usually says: "What year?"

Lee


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


Ya gotta love 'em!! We were talking about a neighbor who was less than likable one time. Carleen made the following comment, " I never knew what white trash meant until I met you." I can only hope she was referring to the term.


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## scrappy (Jan 3, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


My wife keeps giving me a hard time. Now when we are out driveing she catches herself looking at trees and wondering what kind of grain it would have.haha

I think I got her hooked.

Scrappy


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## jerusalemcarpentress (Feb 8, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


I agree with Robin-being in the unique position of being women and woodworkers, i think we can both totally relate to calling something 'pretty', but we also understand why we get laughed at for it. But guys-you must admit, the bottom line is, we all (male or female) are drawn to something primarily because we find it pretty. It's just a succinct way of putting it!!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


great story
now my question is - why do you love the new wood? Oh-because it is pretty!! I get it 

And why is the new stool requested.. hmm maybe because the first stool was with "plain" wood and this wood is .hmmm pretty.

yup.. pretty clear to me 
hahaha 
gotta love it


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


In defense of the Mrs. the stool she was pointing to was one of my first, made from Home Depot pine with wood putty filling in the screw holes. Certainly not my best. But the implication that I should make something "pretty" for a change was just too funny to pass up.

She has been nothing but supportive, but sometimes her phrasing is entertaining. This is not the first time she's made me laugh out loud. When I started moving away from making traditional furniture she told me, "I really trying hard to like your stuff."

Needless to say, it's always an adventure getting her reaction.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


hehe  
Definitely supportive! lol


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## DocK16 (Mar 18, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


TA that's a Hoot!!!! (white trash) My wife was just telling me last week she was watching news special about a soldier who had lost his leg when he stepped on an IUD. (no disrespect to our brave ones in arms but it took awhile to stop laughing.)


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## Kristoffer (Aug 5, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


I can REALLY see her saying that!!! Out of everything that happened yesterday, between picking up the wood, playing in the shop and talking woodworking with you… I think that the few minutes when your wife came out was one of the best parts of the day. She seems like a great woman, you're a lucky guy.
Thanks again for the lumber!!!!!!!


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

Russel said:


> *Non-Woodworkers*
> 
> I just had to share this with you folks because I just can't stop laughing.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kris. It was definitely a good time talking with you.

Now, concerning the Mrs. let's just keep those thoughts to yourself. She reads these things and after what you said, there's going to be no living with her. ;-) I see reminders in the future about "how lucky I am" ... LOL.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

*Final*

I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.

I have nothing but thanks for Martin and his work here and folks who made this place what it is.

When I was a kid we had a taunt that went, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." It was meant to remind us that words can be ignored and by themselves they do no damage. An adult understands that.

Unfortunately, LumberJocks has been flooded with children who whine and cry if somebody says something they don't like. They cannot handle people who think or act differently then they do and therefore look for way to stop people from being individuals.

We now have a "Block User" option where we don't have to be adults. With this new feature, we can block someone from commenting on anything we post. We can say all kinds of bad things about them and they have no recourse. We now have the ability to silence differences and disagreements.

How silly is that?

LumberJocks is not what I joined nearly 3 years ago and, unfortunately, it's not a place that's particularly fun to be anymore. It's sad that the children have come in and have no respect and therefore, Martin has to childproof the site. I don't think I'll spend much time here anymore.

And, just so I don't have to put up with the whiners, I've blocked those who said that they agreed with the whole blocking nonsense.


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## spanky46 (Feb 12, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


Totally agree!


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## Rustic (Jul 21, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


It is a sad day when you have to add a block button to a websiite of MATURE adults.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


Russell
You have been here Muuuch longer than I have but as far as the blocking thing is concerned you must not have had individuals contacting you 20 -30 times a day like I have and others, I know in the past that have been asked to stop sending you PMs that won't stop. I'm sorry to disagree with you on this subject and hope if you stop posting for a while you will be back soon and share your thoughts and projects at a future date.


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## twokidsnosleep (Apr 5, 2010)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


This website is amazing and I have learned so much here in a short time.
It is very addictive to scroll though the projects and the roll the dice feature.
LJ'ers as a whole are far more welcoming and friendly than the 'professionals' on a dental site I now only visit sparingly. It has had a block user function for a long time and even had a few lawsuits threatened and members restricted from posting via threat from legal action.
LJ'ers have it good


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## SuperDave (Apr 4, 2010)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


i think LJ's is the best site ive came across and i think that the blocking button is only for the smacktards that seem to get in to every forum based site not for the mature adults.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


i under stand , my friend .
your growth in wood working ,
and your innovative designs ,
are something i will surely miss ,
i hope you come and visit soon .


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## Eagle1 (Jan 4, 2010)

Russel said:


> *Final*
> 
> I have to say that in my time on LumberJocks I have learned things that I never imagined. The access to knowledge is the most remarkable feature here. Additionally, there have been quite a few folks I've interacted with who have become as good a friend as cyberspace will allow.
> 
> ...


The short time I've been here, I remember those days Skarp. When I first started using computers. All we had was amber and green monitors. Any games I played were only text games, nothing like what they have now. Nor do we have the programs that we have now with being able to use Sketchup. I still prefer to use the old paper thing, and go for it piece by piece, until I like it.

You will be missed..


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