# prices



## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

I want to know if I am to low on my prices for my furniture or sould I go higher. Here are my prices for my beds.

Twin/twin $814
twin/full $836
full/full $868
twin loft $704
full loft $736
xl twin loft $725
twin bed $536
full bed $547
queen bed $557
king bed $568

These prices for if I make them out of pine. Let me know if you guys would charge more for them. These prices I have include material, hardware, labor and delivery. I know prices will vary a little depending on what part of the country you are in but I just wanted to get a idea if I was charging enough. Here are some of the pictures of them.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

And all of my beds are mission style to. Here is another picture.


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

depends, if you are getting enough orders or not.
if not, then it may be to expensive or your not getting enough publicity.
if you have trouble keeping up with new orders, then you could be to cheap and you can increase your prices.
you can also see what the others charge, like stores and such. try to be better either in price or in quality


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

You say that you've included "material, hardware, labor and delivery."

Have you marked up your materials and hardware?

And where is overhead: electricity, insurance, saw blade sharpening, heat, sandpaper, internet, glue, phone?

And finally, most important, where is profit? Is there money in every sale to assure that your business will grow and thrive, and that you'll be able to buy the great bandsaw deal you see on CL tomorrow?

These are numbers that only you can specify, but they need to be there for your business to be robust and for your spirit to soar when you open the door in the morning and turn on the lights.

Kindly,

Lee


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't want to be a bearer of bad news but I will share my honest opinion with you.

You are trying to compete with factory produced products. I'm sure you do a very good job and you could demonstrate how your product is better than theirs but it will be a tough sale. Factories have such an advantage with the machinery, their ability to buy material in large quantities and their production line approach. Their cost of production will be much lower than yours and that gives them an advantage that is very hard to overcome.

IMO - The job of an independent woodworker is to make products that the customer cannot buy elsewhere - custom products that they cannot buy in a store.

Recently I encountered a situation where 2 plant stands were needed. They were to look alike in virtually all regards but one needed to be 16" tall and the other was to be 22" tall. That's a custom job and one could not buy plant stands that fit this criteria at a conventional store or catalog. That's where an independent woodworker has an advantage.

Just my opinion.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

I agree with rich.

As for your prices, they seem to be ok with what I'd pay, but I have a sneaking suspicion you could tack on another $100-150 and be more in the ball park of what you should charge.

Also, I'd start looking to see what you can do about switching from pine (stereotypically considered a cheap wood) for cherry or oak (oak and walnut aren't that much more expensive compared to exotics, but people sometimes have this feeling like it's worth 3-5x the price over pine. Cherry is more in line with mission than walnut.) and work on a few stains.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I too agree with what Rich said. I'm also interested in how many of these you are selling per month.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Only you can decide if your prices are right. How much do you get to keep from your work? Is that amount worth the effort you put into it?


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

What is key in Rich's response, is you must be able to answer why not just buy a commercial piece. Is it workmanship, design, a "buy Local" vibe in the community etc. Really it is as Greedo said… are you booked with orders? 
In your first picture (the unpainted version)- it looks as though the steps on the ladder are either screwed or nailed together two fasteners per side. 
Why pay 814 for that versus:









For 299 at Sams Club?
I bought a sams club bunk bed 11 years ago now and the two boys are still jumping on it. It isn't 'fine'furniture but be prepared to defend your product - as the big box stuff is NOT all particle board crap. In my set it is all solid oak (mostly laminated) but still solid and staying straight.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Ungh….

I don't blame you for buying at Sam's club Dr.Dirt, and you're absolutely right,but this sort of thing really irks me about society these days. Everyone's out for themselves, and it seems like a race to the bottom. On the one hand you have some people who think their products are so amazing they overcharge by an arm and a leg, and on the other hand, you have people like walmart, so desperate to make up in volume they either cut corners, (though apparently my bookcase and your table are not made at the same factory  ) hire slave labor, or simply mechanize till the point where nobody can compete. And customers are no better. They want hand made, high value materials (not "good" materials, just really expensive ones), customer service, delivery, lifetime warrantees, free repairs, and a low price (with massive discounts on top of that).

When is anything going to be "good enough" or to be happy being paid "enough" or willing to pay someone "enough".... Hell, in general it just sounds like people aren't saying "enough" yet!

I still think staining would help you with pricing it better, and partially because painted furniture rarely looks good (maybe only 10% of the time, the other 90% it looks cheap), and a bit more design work, but I still say prices are reasonable. You should be able to defend it.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for all of the replies, and all of the opions. Just to answer some of your questions Lee I have marked up my materials and hardware. And I have included all the other things that you have mentioned. Like electricty, insurence, saw blades, sand paper, heat, glue, internet, and everything else.
And Rich I am starting to do more custom orders and I am starting to make other furniture to.
Bob I could charge about $100-$150 more. And I do already offer hardwoods. I offer maple, ash, cherry, and oak. The loft bed in the one picture that isn't finished in any color is maple. And I will post a few pictures of my beds that I have done in maple that are stained.
And rance I right now I usually make about 2 to 3 a month depending on what month it is. 
Sawkerf I usually make enough on them. I don't really tell people the amount I really make I don't even tell my family only my wife knows. I hope you guys understand. 
And Drdirt I agree with you not all beds in stores are crap. And sams club has better furniture than walmart even though they are pretty much the same company. I would buy anything at sams club before I would buy it at walmart. I was looking at furniture in walmart this last week end and some of there furniture like the small tables and coffee tables don't look very sturdy. Don't take me the wrong way all stores aren't like that. And Drdirt I am curious on the bed you bougt 11 years ago what was used to attach the bed rails to the ends (head board and foot board).
That and where I live there is a lot of amish and people just drowl over there furniture even though guys like us make the very same thing but people think if it's amish made it is special. And I have decided to start making livingroom, office, and bedroom furniture. And I am thinking of making outdoor furniture like picnic tables and adironic chairs and other things. And I live in a area where the economy took a huge crap where everything went bad. And people in my area still aren't buying expensive things. It's getting better but not that good though. And you wouldn't believe how many people call me and tell me they bought a bunk bed and it didn't last for there kids. Thats when I usually ask them where they bought there beds.

And to ask you guys a question where you live how much do people pay for furniture. And I can tell you my number 1 problem is a lot of people don't know that I make furniture. And that is one thing I am working on doing is getting my name out there. And everything I do sell I usually deliver it a half and hour to a hour away from me. Not to many people in the town I live in has bought from me.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I hear ya. Advertising seems to be the biggest hurdle. Thanks for the explanations. Hey, maybe you should wear an Amish hat.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I was actually shopping for bunkbeds not too long ago. The production models I looked at were around your prices. The handmade one's were about 25-50% more expensive. The "rustic" log ones were multiples of your price. I ended up just building my own, although not as nice as yours.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

My problem is I don't know a lot of the advertising part of the business and thats where it hurts me. And I have had a lot of people tell me just to say my furniture is amish made. And if anyone wants to see the beds that I make go to my home page. And Bertha I would of done what you did and make my own why buy a piece of furniture that you could make yourself and it would save you money and you know it was built right.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Well, I'm not so sure about "built right" but I built it anyway  If I were to begin selling stuff seriously, I bet the advertising part would suck all the fun out of it. I don't envy you having to worry about it. A cheap website with some good pictures and a lot of focus on the "handmade" part might help out. If you don't have one yet (and you may), that'd be where I put my first few hundred bucks.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Another thing you may want to look into for customers in your local area are built-in bunk beds. This might get 100% more return for 20% more cost. If you are good with trim, it is something to consider.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I forgot to vent. I get irritated with the false "Amish made" claims that you see every once in a while. In my area, there is one Amish made supplier…and it's real….and the work is oh so fabulous. They made a gigantic cherry secretary that I seriously almost dropped $10K on. If my fiance' wasn't with me, I probably would have.

I guess my point is, your stuff is hand made. It deserves to be priced accordingly.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Nate22, I understand you on the marketing thing. I started my business because I liked making puzzles and working in wood. After many years, I have realized that the most important job in the shop is marketing and making sales. I have taught my people how to do it like I did it. In fact, some of them have upped the ante and do it better than what I was doing. Now I devote my time to marketing , sales and designing of new products.

By the way, another free marketing tool is to put your website into your signature. Like I did.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Bob the Fish -
I had the same (or worse of a struggle on this) here I have a shop - so "cost of Custom" wasn't even on the boards. I needed beds, and when I looked at what I bought Oak mission style but with a curved top to the head and foot board, for at that time i think 297…I had to face the concept that i could not get the materials for under 300 dollars, and then i looked at the joinery - and found that they really weren't cutting corners, nor was it just put together with staples.
For example the ladder had dados run in the rails for each of the steps to sit in and were then put together with wood screws.
I had to look at that and decided that I could assemble this in an hour for less than my cost of materials and it has been going strong for a decade..
That is unfortunately what the market has become - - so as a furniture maker - - how do you really market against these produts? The pressed paper and vinyl "grain" Sauder packages are easy - but there are now a lot of cheap mass produced things that are pretty decent.

Nate - the bed rails are held in with two bed bolts on the end of each rail with a barrel nut inside that is tightened using a allen key.
I'll shoot you a photo. We don't have them as bunks any more but as a pair of twin beds.
Conversely I did make my daughters bed
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/11845
as well as my youngest's race car bed and other furniture pieces.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

I was just curious on how yours was put together Drdirt. I thought thats what it would be put together with. See I don't even use bed bolts I use a bed bracket which I will put a picture on here for you to see. And thats one reason my beds are more. My bed brackets for a set of 4 is $27. But my biggest thing is marketing and selling my furniture.


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## nate22 (Jul 12, 2010)

Here is the bed brackets that I use.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Let me offer some advice for anyone thinking about going into a woodworking business. One of the biggest rip-offs in the furniture world today is what companies are charging for church furniture. A pulpit that I could make for $300 in material and less than 40 hours of labor would sell from a retailer for $3,000 to $4,000. The same can be said about chairs, communion tables, baptismal fonts, etc.

If you can present a church an idea that compliments the overall design of their church, so much the better.

We just did a major renovation of our church sanctuary. I volunteered my time to make a number of pieces for the church and I arranged for woodworking friend to do some other pieces. My friend is a very high level craftsman and he did a great job, charged based on his standard formula and still sold the church furniture for much less than the conventional retailers.

I'm old and tired and I have no ambition for or interest in starting a business. Nonetheless, if I wanted to make some money in woodworking, custom built church furniture is what I would do. Of course, the challenge is getting well known and getting the good jobs, but there are ways to pursue that.


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Honestly, Dr. Dirt, I don't know much about how to fight the downward suck.

I figure if I see something someone overcharges for, I'll undercharge to cut them them down to something reasonable. If I see copies of something the store I work at sells, I'll find a way to market my stuff better (and if I did make it, I'd do it with some other option or details THEY don't just to make a point about being better).

The customers… Well, some days you may be desperate for a sale, but damn them and their "discounts", there's principle and principles are sometimes more important.

As for how they got that cost, I'm sure to believe it's from deals from mills on the supplies and cheap labor on assembly lines. I just don't like it. People are quick to forget that when the consumer puts pressure on lowering costs, it means the business must pay less to SOMEONE, and that in turn means SOMEONE ELSE get's paid less, and eventually it goes back to the employee either being paid next to nothing, or not being employeed at all. Everything's kinda cyclical.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

"I figure if I see something someone overcharges for, I'll undercharge to cut them them down to something reasonable."

Bob, By doing this aren't you helping with everyone thinking that they can get it for less????


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I figure what an item would be worth for ME to build it, given my overhead, cost of lumber, the time it will take me, and how hungry I am at the moment. I also often tell them they can probably find it higher or lower elsewhere. If they want it cheaper, they can go to Ikea or Walmart. I would rarely discount a project if the client complained. If you have to discount it, then I'd say you are in the wrong market(clientel), or you have too much competition with what the discount stores can offer.

Note to self: Never make up an estimate on an empty stomach.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

The secret for the custom woodworker is in clever design that's always a step ahead of what's common and reproducable in the mass marketplace. Make that bunkbed unlike anything anyone's ever seen, then price the value of your uniqueness and abilities instead of focusing on formulas that involve the mere sum of parts and labor your end product consist of.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Rich, regarding ecclesiastical furniture, I agree, and would add that the local guy also has the edge because this stuff usually ends up being pretty big and therefore costly to ship.

Once you get started with a church that is particular about its appointments, you also have the potential of being a downstream regular because you know the colors and understand the design elements.

That said, there is another caution peculiar to this particular market: Very often you will be working with a committee, and that's quite a different critter from dealing with a single decision maker.

In one case I designed a pulpit, rather an elaborate hexagonal thing with three sides absent, and, with approval of the design, I built a full size model with cardboard and packaging tape. I met with the committee in the sanctuary (usually a much larger room than we're used to building for; pay attention) and gave them each a utility knife.

Changes were made, and I incorporated every one into the construction, and there hasn't been a mutter of disapproval in the intervening 30 some years.

Kindly,

Lee


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Miles, that's very good thinking.

On a less original level, but still interesting:

What if, "free of charge," every buyer got one name engraved on the headboard? There's something you won't get from a catalog or furniture store.

All it would cost you, Nate, is a set of router templates.

You'll soon be known as "the guy that put the fun back in funiture."

Kindly,

Lee


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## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Lee - Very clever approach.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

My opinion/philosophy is that miles125 hit the nail on the head by saying to make something unique and not easily mass produced. Let the people wanting something traditional and generic go to the mass produced outlets and make their purchases….Being uniquw works for me…


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

Puzzleman, I posted this yesterday: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/27575

The problem with overcharging like that is that it makes people distrustful of their seller. And it also makes other sellers think they can get away with it…

Just because I might not care much for constant price lowering, doesn't mean that I just always side with higher prices.

Back on topic (sorry for my derailment there), I like the idea of customized via name routering for free. I think it's a great way to stand out.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""Very often you will be working with a committee, and that's quite a different critter from dealing with a single decision maker."" 
Lee Barker

I bet Frank Lloyd Wright himself struggled with this problem. A commitee that is certain a good compromise between ice cream and a tuna sandwich is tuna ice cream.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

Lee - Thank you for your comments on church furniture. On two recent pieces that I did for a church, I made plywood and 2×4 versions of the communion rail and the communion table. Those plywood configurations were actually left in place for a Sunday morning service so, in addition to the design committee, everyone in the congregation could opine on the design.

Also, with the posts that I used for the communion rail, I actually made 3 designs (these were out of oak) for the design committee to vote on.

These steps can save a lot of grief down the road.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

@Nate & others that sell bunk beds… How do you handle the issue of the matterss? Do they come with a mattress or do you recommend a supplier?

This is really a good discussion.


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## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

interesting topic, but like it or not the rules of business don't matter when you work for yourself making furniture. You can't compete with the lower end, so you need a niche or custom work in the higher end. You have to price your time and not sell yourself too cheap. When I build fun things myself, I price out the cost as if I might make it to sell. Most thing come out higher than I would pay to buy it, except I value my own things to tell people I made all this. That doesn't happen for things sold, it is just money for time and if it isn't enough money, than don't waste the time, find a different line or say no to the work. 
So I would price them as if each was custom, material plus hours times shop rate, if you sell them at shows or do deliveries, you need to add in this cost plus overhead of 20%. If this puts the bed price out of range, then it might not be a good project. I like making wooden spoons as gifts, the material is scraps, but the labor makes them $40 spoons which is a tough sale. My dad bought a 200 year old tiger maple dresser, and I might not be able to beat that price either to match it. On the other hand, any custom built ins, especially commercial work, has shop time $60-90 range and easy to under bid a larger firm.
So keep an open product line and price your shop time, let the customers decide if they want custom work or Ikea or Sams Club.


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