# Toy box lid....question for those with experience



## Razorburne (Jul 7, 2014)

Hey guys. I'm in the process of building a toy box for my little girl - so far I have the entire bottom portion completed and the project is going along very well. The lid is my next step. It will be made out of dimensional pine boards that I will join together with pocket hole joinery on the underside and fill in with flush-cut pine plugs. I planned on adding 2-3 cleats on the underside of the lid for added strength/support.

So the first question: is there anything special I should know about adding the cleats, or is it as simple as countersink/boring holes and attaching the cleats?

2nd question: I plan on using a piano hinge and two spring-loaded lid supports to ensure no little fingers get pinched/crushed by a falling lid. The lid supports come in different pound ratings which you calculate to determine what size you need. Part of the calculation requires you know the weight of your lid. This might be a very stupid question, but without a scale in my home, how would I go about determining the weight of the lid? Is there a trick or do I really need to find a scale somewhere and weighing it?

Thanks for helping out a noob!


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Razorburne,

I'm building a blanket/hope chest right now, which is basically the same thing as a toy box. Just fancier. My plans that I'm following calls for screwing the cleats in with countersunk holes. No glue, as the wide panel top will expand and contract based on the seasons, and glue joints would break and cause problems.

As far as your second question, Pine's density is 22-37 lbs/cubic feet. So to figure out your lid weight, you would calculate it like this. Assuming your measurements are in inches, you also need to convert to cubic feet by dividing by 1728 (12 to the third power):

Weight = Length x Width x thickness x Density/1728.

So, if your lid is 22"x45"x3/4", then your weight would be 10-16 lbs depending on density. You then divide it by half the width in inches to find the rating needed. If it's clear with no knots, I would assume closer to the lower end.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

You need to know what it is made out of and the square feet or square inches with the thickness. Then check on the net for pounds per sqft or sqin of the material. That's how I calculate most of the metal sculptures I make. Or you could just wing it since the moisture content would need to be in the calculations to. I would just wing it. If you need something laying around that has a known weight for you to compare a US gallon of water is a tad over 8 1/3 pounds if memory serves me right which is less then a imperial gallon. Useless knowledge my not be so useless. Like I said I would just wing it close to what you think the weight is and I think most of the hinges have a little adjustment to them.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

You beat me to it Martel


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm an engineer. I do weight estimates for a living.


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind, if you get the lid supports for a heavier weight, it will put some serious strain on the top, and may even break it. I had to return the first set I bought when I built my dayghter's toy box, because I guessed at weight and figured, "bigger must be better."


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## Razorburne (Jul 7, 2014)

Wow! Thanks for such quick responses you guys.

@ jmartel-> thanks for so much detail. That's exactly the info I think I would need. 
One further question: is there a general dimension used for a lid cleat (1×4, 2×2, etc)?

@super cubber-> thanks for the heads up on the lid supports. At first I thought bigger would be better but after second thought i realized 1. The lid may not close if the support is too strong relative to the lid weight and if it did close, it may only be under significant strain and cause problems as you suggested. That's why I wanted to make sure to closely approximate the lid weight. That way I don't overdue it with too strong if supports or underestimate and get something that will not hold.


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## Razorburne (Jul 7, 2014)

I was planning on going with the lid supports from Rockler - not the real expensive torsion hinge and lid support in one, but rather the less expensive lid support and pair it with a piano hinge that would run the length of the entire piece


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Concerning the cleats: generally it's not a good idea just to screw them to the top. The problem is that you then have wood in cross-grain orientation and as the top tries to expand and contract seasonally it won't be able to because of the cleats and it can (will) crack eventually. You're using pine, which is relatively stable, and depending on how wide the top is you might get away with it, but I wouldn't try if it were me.
The solution is to drill elongated holes in the cleats (sort of a little slot) for the screws.


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## j1212t (Dec 7, 2013)

For a relatively short piece like you probably have I might not worry about elongating the holes - just because elongating holes by a 1/8 or 1/4 might be somewhat of a pain.

If it was me I would just make the holes 1/8 or 3/16 bigger than the screws (depending on your screw head size), so you will effectively have some play built in and with pine I would think that is enough.


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## Razorburne (Jul 7, 2014)

@Jake-> so you are saying to screw the cleats down tight but to make the countersink hole a tad bigger than I normally would?


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Razorburne,

He's saying that for the holes you are drilling into the cleats, make it a larger diameter than the screw. That way there's some room for the screw to move around in there when the top expands and contracts.


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

[edit - Sorry, he asked for those with experience.  ]


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## Razorburne (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks everyone. I think I got it. I appreciate all of your help


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## gcfaman (Jan 3, 2019)

One other safety feature you may want to consider is to cut 1/2 inch section out of part of the top rail, leaving a space between the top and the top rail at the front. Leave the full height at the ends close to the rail. No specific dimension for the amount to cut out, start at the center and work to the sides. Cut where they are most likely to lift/ close.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

For the weight - if you have a bathroom scale, weigh yourself and then weigh again holding the lid. I've done thus when I needed my dog's weight. Seems better than guessing….


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

Not mentioned is that , as a safety feature, there should be plenty of air gap when the lid is closed. Children often get inside toy boxes, close it, and go to sleep. Without adequate air they can suffocate! I make mine like this:


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