# how are cabinets attached to walls?



## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

I know this probably sounds like a dumb question, but I've really looked around and never seen the answer to this. If I were to build a simple plywood shelf/cabinet I'd like to know the best way to attach it to a wall. Please read the brief summary below to understand what I really mean here.

If I were to build a hanging shelf/cabinet, I'd probably use two sides connected by 3 shelves.
Bottom - Set into a dado
Middle - Also a dado
Top - Rests in a rabbet

Then to make it strong, I'd add a back made of plywood too. Depending on the width of the cabinet, I may or may not add dados to the back to prevent sagging. I could also drive screws through the back of the plywood into the shelves instead (or in addition to the dado).

Now for the question. I'm thinking the best way to hang these is to utilize a french cleat system. I guess that the 1/2 of the cleat that gets attached to the wall can just be attached with screws into the studs.

- What about the other 1/2 that gets attached to the cabinet? 
- Do those just go through the plywood and into the cleat? Ussually cleats are only 3/4" thick so I can't imagine there would be a lot of holding power in such a short screw. 
- Is there any other mechanical joint that I should consider when implementing a cleat on a cabinet? 
- How much does the position of the cleat matter? 
- Should I try to use more than one cleat or is one sufficient as long as I use a similar thickness of material at the bottom to keep the cabinet plumb?

Sorry for such elementary questions but I've never hung cabinets before and I don't want them to come crashing down and hit someone or something.

Thanks for your help everyone!


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

there's an image on this page that shows the french cleat installation and hiding. there's also a link on the bottom for a full pdf about hanging cabinets on walls if you're a FWW member.

you could use a 1/2'' back instead of the 1/4''. that would give you more holding power - esp. if you plan on hanging it on the wall. whether you use french cleats, or drive screws through your cabinet into the wall studs.


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## LONGHAIR (Dec 16, 2007)

I generally do it by recessing the back into the sides/top/bottom much the way I would a drawer bottom. Then add the cleat in the resulting space. This eliminates the need for adding something to keep it flat agaisnt the wall. You can pocket-screw the cleat in from the back and nothing shows from the outside.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm sure you will get responses from folks who know more than me about hanging cabinets, but here is a clue for you: Go look at your kitchen cabinets, and those of a few friends or relatives, and see what is holding them up. You'll be surprised at how little it seems to be.

In other words, I think you're over-thinking it. Your French cleat idea would work fine, but even that might be overkill depending on what you plan to store in the cabinets.

From your description, I would put some screws through the plywood back into the shelves (even if you do use dadoes). Then I would simply hang it on the wall by driving screws through the plywood back into the studs. Depending on the cabinet width, you'll probably be spanning two studs, and two or three screws in each stud would be plenty.

I know it sounds funny, but my understanding is that once you have that cabinet tight against the wall, friction is actually doing a lot of the work.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Aw, just use some cheap picture hangers with small nails in the drywall. Just don't put anything in the cabinets. LOL
Seriously, I like the french cleat if you're hanging cabinets in the garage or workshop. They're strong, easy to remove if your storage needs change, and the easiest one-person, no propping hanging method.
Just my opinion and choice.


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## BreakingBoardom (Dec 18, 2009)

Seems like everyone has been mentioning the french cleat. It's a pretty good route to go. It's fairly simple, strong, and gives you some options in case you need to remove it easily for any reason or whatnot. If that doesn't suit your needs, you can always just screw into the studs.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

There is a metal cleat you can buy that works like a wooden French cleat. (Z clip) Thinner so it needs less space in back.
Metal Cleat
Most kitchen cabs are just screwed into the studs in back with a couple screws through the face frame into the adjoining face frame.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

ancient chinese secret!


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I guess my main concern was the idea that the cleat will probably attach to the plywood back but that the plywood would probably only be nailed in place and that might be a weak link. It sounds like if I use screws instead, that shouldn't cause a problem.

The reason for my concern is that I want this to be large enough to hold shop tools (circular saw, cheap craftsman router table with router, drills, jigsaws, cans of finish, routers, etc.). All this stuff will be heavy/clunky, so the cabinet will probably be about 20 inches deep and will have to support a lot of weight. I'll probably make two of them that will be about 48" across to minimize costs and maximize storage.

I want the cabinets to hang in my garage so I can store large tools underneath them (jointer, tablesaw, my future router table, etc). A third small cabinet will probably hang above my planned workbench. That one is particularly import and because it would be terrible if it fell while I was using a powertool on the bench or something like that.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Purp, the photo you included was particularly beneficial.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Sounds like there is going to be a lot of weight in that cabinet.
I would use no less than 1/2" plywood backing that is glued and screwed to the frame, and instead of the cleat method, use at least 3" decking screws with washers through the plywood backing, into the wall studs. Construct the width of it so the ends cover the wall studs. As an example, if it's going to be 48" wide, construct it to be 50" wide so you can screw it on the wall and be able to hit the centerlines of the studs at either end. Screw every corner and on the centerlines of all the studs it covers.
Just my opinion.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Another advantage to french cleats is that you don't need to hunt for studs that you have to hit from inside the cabinet, you connect the cleat to the wall and level the cleat. You just have to make sure the cleats have good solid connections so glue and screw the cleats on the cabinets back and in the rabbit.


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

My understanding is that with a flat-backed cabinet, most of the holding power comes from static friction between the back of the cabinet and the wall, so the screws are really only there to keep the two surfaces in close contact.

On cleat-based systems, it's the cleat that's doing the holding, so you're relying far more on the shear strength of the individual screws and the strength of the attachment between the cleat and the cabinet itself.

I hope that helps…!


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

My understanding is that with a flat-backed cabinet, most of the holding power comes from static friction between the back of the cabinet and the wall, so the screws are really only there to keep the two surfaces in close contact.

On cleat-based systems, it's the cleat that's doing the holding, so you're relying far more on the shear strength of the individual screws and the strength of the attachment between the cleat and the cabinet itself.

I hope that helps…!


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

thiel,

I have read about the static theory before, but I don't necessarily agree. That would mean only one or two small screws would be sufficient to hold a cabinet with heavy objects ? Or am I missing something ?


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

Yep… that's exactly what I mean. When you consider how much you can load in a cabinet, yet how easily you can bend/shear a screw, it's clear that there are other forces at work.

I'm sure many of us have held an entire sheet of sheetrock up on a wall using only one hand (while reaching for the screw gun). Same principle at work.

Not saying the screws don't contribute something, but (IMO) the lion's share of the work is done by friction….


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

A couple of options. But typically Cabinets are either installed on French Cleats, or simply screwed through to the studs. I like cleat installations as they tend to be more flexible…


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

If you decide against the Zclips, I would certainly go with Jim Ceriale's suggestion. Even if you use cleats, a 1/2" back glued and screwed would be advisable.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Simply find out where the beams are in the walls then screw 2 planks or pieces of timber into each beam accross beams I.e 2 per run of cabinets then screw these pieces of wood to the walls in parallel fashion then screw the cabinets to the planks or whatever you call them in the good old USA all should be fine.I did this with my cabinets 4 years a go and the will hold up fort knockers .


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

I think my plan is to try and incorporate all of these ideas. Some say Friction is the key to a good hold. Others say it is the shear strength of the cleats. I've been thinking that the best way to go might be to try and incorporate both.

What do you guys think of this idea? I'm going to make the back out of 3 pieces of 3/4" plywood that will run horizontally. Each piece will have a 6 inch gap between them. I'll cut the bottom edge of the top two pieces on a 45 degree bevel. This will allow the back to act as both a large flat surface that will create friction against a wall and will also allow the cleats to interlock directly with the cleats.

The only real drawback that I can think of is that this will involve more cuts and more measurement. I really was hoping to keep this as simple as possible since this is not really a project I want to spend significant shop time on. If people are still watching this thread, I'd really love to hear feedback on my idea. I suspect people will say it is overkill, and if enough people do, I'll probably revert back to the original cleat idea. I also want to stick with cleats because I think it could become a useful storage device for other items down the road.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I'll avoid specific names in my thank you's since I think they were all pretty good (except you mics_54 - haha).


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

It might be overkill, but it's still a good plan. Considering you are going to make these pretty deep, and potentially put some heavy stuff in them, you'll sleep better at night knowing they are going to stay put.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

you forgot carbon bonding


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

It'll be stout, thats for sure. Hadn't realized you might want to change them out for other systems. In that case, your plan seems like a good one.

Don't be knocking mics_54, now. If he told you the secret, it wouldn't be a secret, any longer. And, he'd have to kill you! )


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I think it's an overkill, and probably based on your/our inability to measure how much weight can screws/cleats support

I did the same thin you are thinking of doing with my handtool cabinet you can see theres a french cleat on the top, and another on the bottom - both are 3/4" plywood. this cabinet is heavy as hell, and carries in it today waaaaaay more than it did when I posted the first blog on it (hand planes, chisels, marking gauges, squares, cutters, bits….you name it it's there). to take it off, I have to take all the drawers out, take all the planes off, uninstall the doors, and even then, the cabinet is not a light feather.

aligning the 2 cleats for installation on the wall is a nightmare!!!! and because of that - I do believe that only 1 cleat really carries the weight of the whole cabinet, and not both (even a 1/16" gap in one cleat means that it's not supporting the weight of the cabinet).

on another note - I have kitchen cabinets installed in the garage for misc stuff (drills, routers, etc which are quite heavy) - these are simply screwed to the studs with some 3" drywall screws through their masonite backs… I was surprised too…

but it really boils down to what you wanna do


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

double sided sticky tape?


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## bherman (Oct 14, 2009)

A simpler approach (and one that is used quite often on kitchen-type cabinets) is to use a 3/4" thick board across the back inside the cabinet, at the top - maybe 2-3" wide, then drive your screws through that into the studs. Kitchen cabs have to be designed to hold alot of weight so this should work fine.


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

Agree with PurpLev - it's going to be very difficult to impossible to ensure you get even weight distribution between 2 cleats. Here's an alternative that will be just as strong: stay with the multiple piece plywood back, but only have the top piece mate with a wall-mounted cleat. After you hang the cabinet on this cleat, drive screws through the other 2 pieces of back, into the studs. The weight of the cabinet will be borne by the cleat and its screws alone, but the weight of everything you put in the cabinet will be carried by all of the screws. I tend to like this way for heavy stuff.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Just screw it to the wall. If not comfortable with that then use a whole box of screws.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Time tested methods include Cleats and screws threw the back. Cabinets have hung on the walls for decades using one of these two ways and I've done both and have cabinets hanging on the walls for twenty plus years using both methods. some of the things addressed here are things Static pressure ,Not going to happen try using static pressure just to hold a 1/4" cabinet back on a wall no way unless your wall is magnetic and you cabinet back is metal (sorry Theil) Folks worrying about screws being strong enough no worry the cabinets are hanging in a way it's sheer weight on the screw so unless your using small brass screws or are not connected to a stud or your back is not secured property or is to thin you will not have problems with 2 - 4 deck screws hold a mass amount of weight. Just don't test it by loading the cabinets full with concrete blocks , I really know someone who did that, The bottom feel out of his cabinet and the back was still stuck to the wall.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm vindicated. LOL


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## thiel (May 21, 2009)

No apologies necessary Jim… a 1/4 back would flex easily and break the surface contact. For direct screwing to the wall (which, to me, means its mostly being held up by friction) I'd pretty much always use 3/4 in plywood.

I'm no contractor…. I mention the friction thing more as a discussion point than a piece of advice!


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Listen to a1Jim, He doesn't "screw" around. Ben Herman also. That's the way I've been installing cabs for 20 years. Never had one come down yet.


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Listen to a1Jim, He doesn't "screw" around. Ben Herman also. That's the way I've been installing cabs for 20 years. Never had one come down yet. I just did a little looking around the net and found this:





I know it is a different thing, but when installing engineer required bracing in roof trusses that were just too high for me to reach, I would simply put 2- 12 penny nails in a 2×4 and climb on top of that . I weighed 230 lbs. at the time.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Most well made cabs have a "screw stick"-a horizontal rail- at the top and bottom of the cabinet. Using quality pan head screws into studs will suffice. Don't use dry wall screws.
Bill


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Most everyone suggests screwing through the back in one way or another, But, if this is going to be a moveable/exchangeable unit, then cleats are the best way. As noted by Purplev, one will do the trick.
I'd still use 1/2-5/8 ply in the back to hold the cleat.


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## DirtyDan64 (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm assuming these boxes are for your shop, since the reference is made on the amount of tools ect to be stored. If your shop walls are covered with Strand bd. you have half the battle won. Are these boxes made with Frames or to be frameless ?

If there made using frames construction and 1/4" back material be sure to have an additional 1/4" behind the first 1/4" back so that when you screw the box to the wall you have full contact with the back of the box and the wall, and depending on the size (length) of the box you shouldn't need more than 6 screws in say a 48" wall cabinet.

If your using frameless construction here you should us 1/2" backing and agin shouldn't need more than 6 screws max per box being hung.

I've installed 100's of custom kitchens and the key to any installation is to have the boxes tight to the wall and all adjoining boxes are screwed to one another which once there all up on the wall becomes one unit, it will also help if you have or incorporate into the design of your boxes for the shop to have a full height cabinet one one or both ends from floor to ceiling to give you even more stability with your installation. Don't over think something so simple but if you think you'll be changing or needing to change the layout of your boxes later say a year from now you may want to incorporate a type of french cleat system and make all your boxes modular in different width's so you can change them around form one wall to the other or from one end to the middle and so on. 
I know several guys who have used this type of system to make life easier later on when they upgrade machinery, or other issues arise it's simple to make changes and room when and if necessary.


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## JasonIndy (Dec 29, 2008)

FWIW, we just installed cabinets in our kitchen. The old ones were attached with 3" construction screws and washers like Jim had mentioned earlier, and that's how the new ones went in.

I've seen plans for the sliding cleat concept, and I think that's better for a workshop simply because installation seems just as easy and you can move things around. Either way as long as your screwing/nailing into the studs I would think you'd be fine.


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