# Shed Workshop Insulation & Heating



## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

After 2 years of struggling with no real shop space, I'm about to have a 20' x 14' wooden shed completed in my back yard. I chose to hire someone for the shed build, and by next week it will be finished. Now I need to figure out how to heat it for the winter, and I am having a heck of time deciding what the best option would be. It's 2×4 framing 16 o.c., with T1-11 siding. The roof is a peaked with a ridge vent running the length of 20', and the height of the shed at the peak is 13'. I won't have a gas line near my shed, but there is electricity, and I'll have a switch box with some breakers to run a 220 outlet and a few 110 outlets, plus lighting. Because of this, I thought electric heating options would be the best to consider. I actually made a bit of an impulse purchase yesterday at a big box store, and bought a in-wall a/c & heater unit, (17,100 heating BTUs) of the type you see in a hotel room. It was over $1,100, and now I'm starting to think that I could have found a lower cost option. I already have a good 8,000 BTU window a/c that I could use in the summer (I'll have 4 large windows), so the heat is really what I'm concerned about. I want to have heat that can be controlled with a thermostat so I can keep the heat at at least 60 degrees all the time. I'll probably be in the shed/shop about 10 - 12 hours a day, and I want to be totally comfortable throughout the cold Pennsylvania winters. (I know 10 - 12 hours a day sounds like a lot, but it won't all be spent woodworking.) I would really appreciate some advice on what kind of insulation to use on the walls (I was planning on rolls of R-13, covered by ply-wood panels for walls), as well as what I should do for roof insulation. I'll have a loft at each end of the shed, so there won't be a ceiling. How can I add insulation to the roof? Can those green styrofoam-type sheets of insulation be used? And how do you attach insulation to a roof? I don't think I could nail it because I'd probably poke holes through the roof. And then there's the floor. The floors are being made from really good quality T&G plywood that will be sealed. Should there be insulation attached attached under the flooring? If so, what type of insulation is used for that? And finally, I would really appreciate any advice on what type of heater would work to keep my shop climate controlled in a safe, effective manner. This is my first post on LJ, but I've been reading these forums for a couple of years now because I always learn so much from the vast base of knowledge within. I will be very grateful for advice and suggestions. Thank you.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

Insulating is the most important thing to do. With the 2×4 framing obviously insulating the walls with R13 batts is trivial and apparently your all set for that. I assume this same 2×4 framing supports the roof.

I'm not a building expert, but I think given that you have a ridge vent, you'd want to keep a space between the roof sheathing for airflow to pull moisture away. This of course requires venting at the soffits (if there are any).

Assuming the 2×4 framing supports the roof, you could use rigid insulation nailed to the 2×4 framing, leaving a space between the insulation and the roof sheathing created by the framing. If that space can be vented at the bottom, I think you'd have a great setup.

If venting isn't a possibility, or even needed, plug the ridge vent, put batting between the framing and perhaps still add some rigid insulation to increase the R value beyond R13.

I know nothing about insulating your type of floor. But you will want to insulate it. While it needs to be insulated, I'm sure there are concerns about moisture coming up from the ground. So I do think there is a right and wrong way to go here. I would think mostly don't have anything touch the ground. Of course you can build up insulation on the inside with plywood over rigid foam.

As to your actual heater and AC, unless the heater is a heat pump, it's all the same thing when using electricity. As to the AC, you'd want to compare the efficiency of the window unit you own vs the one you just bought. My guess is what you just bought is more efficient, but it still might take a long time for it to pay off.

But since you don't have a heater yet, obviously some of that cost is necessary anyway. But that space isn't all that large. If you get it well insulated, you could probably heat it with a common space heater. Though I'm sure your winters are pretty demanding, so perhaps that isn't enough. Windows are a real load. A single window can lose as much heat as an entire wall. So consider storm windows for the winter, or go old school with stapling plastic across the windows. Anything to improve them for the winter. Even properly sized piece of foam insulation you can stuff in the windows. will do wonders, even if a bit crude. Certain kinds of window film can help as well.

Don't forget, power tools and shop lights put out some heat. My shop vac is seems to think it is a part time space heater and you are also quite a heat source. Point being, you might find you don't need all that much more heat while you're in there working given that it is a modest size space.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Clin. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a detailed reply. I've been having anxiety since this work started and am feeling really overwhelmed. I've been a homeowner for 3 years now, but this is the first time I've ever dealt with a major home renovation type of project (My complicated 30' x 32' deck is also getting all new deck boards, railings, etc. and of course there were issues - $$$- once the old boards came up) And this isn't a typical hired-contractor job. I hired someone I know with deck and shed building experience to handle the labor aspect, but I took partial general contracting responsibilities as far as design, selecting and purchasing all the materials (with some guidance from my builder), arranging for all the necessary items, like dumpster rental, arranging for an electrician to handle the electrical necessities (another thing I just found out is insufficient, and is going to be more $$$ to correct), etc. I planned to finish up the build myself by installing the insulation and wall paneling (I plan to use 1/4" or maybe 1/2" plywood for interior walls to cover up the R-13 fiberglass insulation, but maybe there's a better option?). I plan on running the electrical outlets and lighting myself too, as I'll already have the breaker box on the wall and ready to go.

I'm finding out my builder doesn't have much knowledge when it comes to structures that are going to be occupied. He's a deck, fence, and shed guy - and I mean sheds that are used as simple storage sheds. When it comes down to it, what I need is more of a little house than an actual shed. I've been waiting 3 years to get a proper woodworking shop, and I want a shop that will last for many decades. I also want a shop I can work comfortably in all year round. I figure since I'm already making such a significant investment, I should go the extra mile. I don't want a shop that necessitates wearing a jacket and working with chilled fingers in January, but I don't think my builder quite gets how important these things are. I was hoping he could at least give me advice about the proper way to handle insulation, etc., but it turns out that that is another thing I'm going to be responsible for figuring out myself.

To answer your questions about soffit vents - Yes, there will be soffit vents. I had a ridge vent in my plans, but as I was researching today, I learned about the soffit vents and about keeping an inch of air flow between the roof and insulation. I ordered the soffit vents that will run the full length of the eaves to be delivered with all the rest of the building materials that will be arriving tomorrow - well, actually today (it's 2 a.m.).

Do you think it would be possible to get enough R value from the rigid insulation you referred to for the roof? I was researching info about insulating cathedral ceilings (essentially that's what I'll have), and I now know that the airflow is very important. I think your idea of nailing the sheet insulation to the 2×4 rafters would be the best way to go if it will provide enough protection. I do have a question though - Do you think the highly flammable the nature of the rigid foam insulation would be a problem if left exposed? If it's nailed to the rafters, it will be the ceiling above my head. I read something where someone said to cover it with something non-flammable. What would fit the bill for my application?

As far as the floor and potential moisture, what my builder is doing is putting a moisture barrier down under the flooring. But what I've read today is that insulation is absolutely necessary. Apparently the foam board can be placed in between the joists, under the floor boards. It's a bit labor intensive from what I saw online. I read that it's best to nail furring strips to the joists so the insulation sheet has a ledge to sit on and be nailed to. I'm trying to figure out if a barrier of some sort should go on top of the insulation, between it and the floor.

Thanks again for the reply, Clin. I'd be grateful for any further suggestions from you and any other members who have any helpful advice.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

Depending on how cold your winters get, if they are above a low temperature of 5 degrees consider a heat pump. They are efficient for both heating and cooling.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

For the floor you need to put down a vapor barrier below the insulation You want to prevent the moisture from the ground from coming up into insulation. If you are going to use the rigid foam board furring strips to support the insulation would be best. you do not want a barrier on top of the insulation.

The purpose of the vapor barrier is to prevent moisture from condensing in the insulation. In a heated space warm air travels through the walls cools and condenses out moisture in the insulation so the vapor barrier goes between the heated area and the insulation. Floors have more moisture in the ground than the air so that moisture travels up into the floor joists and etc providing an area conducive to insects etc The vapor barrier under the joists prevents that moisture travel. heated air rises so you don't have to much moisture from inside going down into the insulation from the heated space above.

I read your post again/ You don't say what size your rafter are and spacing. My shop had 2×6 rafters so I went with R-19 fiberglass it conforms to the vent material I ran between the roof and insulation.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

Sam,

Since you're going to be set to ventilate the roof, I think this is going to be easy for you. There are sheet materials just for maintaining this space. Used mostly in attics so insulation can be blown in, but not touch the roof sheathing.

I think these may be called roof vent baffles. I think these add a bit of R value as well.

Since your framing is 2×4, and you can't even fit R13 in the space and still have a ventilation space, I'd actually just and furring strips to the exiting roof framing to making it deeper.

You could add on 2"x2" (actually 1.5" x 1.5"), but given the vent space, you might want to go to a 2×3 or full 2×4. Then you could probably get R19 batting between them.

Then just finish off the roof as you would the walls with something like plywood or OSB. Plywood is nice because it is strong and you can easily screw stuff to if for mounting.

Don't forget to seal the building as much as possible. Air infiltration is a big deal in terms of heating.

As mentioned, I'm sure having a vapor barrier in the floor is a good idea. You don't want ground moisture to get in. But recently I was looking into vapor barriers in general, and it seems the opinions are changing.

For example, the standard way of having the vapor barrier, insulation, then siding is clearly good for keeping inside moisture from migrating through the insulation and condensing or even freezing on the inside of the siding. But apparently some research has shown that most of the moisture in walls actually gets in from the outside. And that NOT having an inside vapor barrier gives this moisture a way out.

In other words the vapor barrier might create more problems then it cures. The other impression I got, was that there is no best way, only what is best most of the time for your area. Big difference between Florida and North Dakota. So I would seek out local information. Local building codes can go a long way to giving you guidance.

Also, in most places what you are building is really just that a building, and not just a shed. So a permit might be needed and then building codes apply. It sounds like you are not getting a permit and perhaps don't need it.

In the end, a little extra effort now to figure out what is best, will go a long way to ensuring many years of use. And of course that's one reason you're here at LJ asking questions. None of this is rocket surgery, and it generally is pretty easy to do things right, you just need to know what the right way is.

I'm already talking outside my pay grade here, so please take anything I say as food for thought and not specific advice on exactly what to do.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. I've gained a lot of insight, along with some specific direction for my own research. Clin, your info has been very informative. I found the changing opinions on vapor barriers that you mentioned, and after reading a few different sources, I think I need to focus on the best option for colder climates (zone 5 to be exact).

To Johnstoneb: I'm intending the roof to be 2×4 rafters. I already got the materials delivered, but now, with recently gained knowledge, I'm considering buying the necessary 2×6 rafters and changing the plan. I don't think it would be an issue to ask my builder to use 2×6 for the rafters instead of 2×4. Would there be any additional work required at this point if I switched to 2×6? I can't think of a reason why there would be, but I obviously didn't plan this properly from the start.

New Question: I read today that certain brands/types of XPS rigid foam board can act as a vapor barrier as well. That if installed with a tight friction fit between the floor joists, with furring strips attached to the joists underneath the foam boards to prevent them falling out if the friction fit loosens over time, that the XPS boards will be all the vapor barrier needed. And that the foam is also treated so it will repel insects and critters. Is this true? If not, what should I use as a moisture/vapor barrier under the foam boards in the floor? And how is a vapor barrier attached? Does it stretch across the bottom of the entire floor, meaning that the entire floor structure has to be flipped over after the vapor barrier is attached so that it is underneath the foam boards? And will the space of air between the foam boards and a vapor barrier be ok? Originally, before my builder fully grasped that I wanted this structure to be more of a little house than a shed, when he didn't realize that I wanted the floor to be insulated, he said he was going to seal the bottom of the plywood flooring to prevent moisture. He convinced me that this was better than using exterior plywood as flooring. I instead purchased really nice 3/4" T&G plywood so I could just leave them as bare plywood floors inside my shop. Now that I'm going to be using the foam board between the floor joists, and possibly a vapor barrier under them as well, is there any need to coat the underside of my plywood floors with any type of sealant?

For the walls, the plan was to simply install T1-11 siding to the studs. I was then going to use the fiberglass rolls of the pink insulation between the 16" O.C. studs, then use plywood panels as walls ( so I can hang tools, etc on the walls. Now I'm wondering if I should use some type of house-wrap under the T1-11 siding. And maybe using only foam boards for wall insulation between the studs. That would leave me enough space for a 3 inch thick layer of foam board. I know it's more expensive, but at this point I'd rather spend the money now to get what's best for my needs. If the walls do need some kind of house-wrap product, what kind? And in what order do these things get layered? Should there be air gaps between anything?

Again, thank you guys for your replies. I promise all my postings on LJ won't be never ending onslaughts of questions. I'm just really worried about getting my shop built correctly. This shop is a long time dream of mine about to come true, and I would hate to have turned into a nightmare instead. I'm a man of modest means and I really only have this one chance to make sure this gets done right. Once I'm in there, I can actually focus on woodworking. This building structures stuff is very different from building simple furniture.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I think you're going to be really underinsulated if you want to keep that building at 60 AFFORDABLY.

First, ditch the ridge vent. Ridge vents are designed to be used with soffit vents to keep a roof deck cold so you don't get heat melting the snow and causing ice dams. Unless you put soffit vents in and leave an air space between those rafters the ridge vent is useless. (google 'cold roof deck')

You really need R19 in the walls and R38 in the ceiling if you want to stay comfortable in the northeast. 2X4 rafters (WAY undersized structurally) don't give you much. The only foam that gives you a vapor barrier is the closed cell foil faced stuff. Pink boards are open cell foam and not very efficient.

As far as you rafters I'd go with 2X8 rafters if you don't want your roof to deflect under a snowload. Is there a ridge beam supported by the gable walls and maybe one pole in the middle? You're building a structure you want to last. I have to ask if you're just winging this or of you bought a set of plans, which would be money well spent. At the very least go buy a book that has building codes in it.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I find a wood burning stove quite quaint in a woodshop.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

For some reason I thought this shed was already built. Didn't realize it wasn't. I agree with dhazwelton. It really isn't that much more expensive to increase the size of the framing. 2×6 walls (R19) and larger for the roof to increase the insulation there.

I wouldn't be surprised that it would be less expensive to increase the size of the framing and then use standard fiberglass batting, then to stay with smaller framing and use more expensive insulation.

Seems to me you need to take a step back on this. You really are constructing a small building and should approach it that way, rather then as a conversion of a shed to a shop space. You're making a large investment here, and might as well do it right.

If I were you'd I'd start asking around. Someone you know has friend who has a friend type thing. I would think an experienced local builder or architect, could probably cover most of this in 20 minutes. Do this …, do this .. do this ….

I would think your shed guy would know others in the building trade and could get you the help you need.

Or just bite the bullet and find an architect or builder like you would any other professional and see what they say.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks again for the replies. I think I need to clarify a few things though from my initial post: I'm not winging this by myself. I hired a contractor/builder with the deal that I would purchase the materials myself and he would provide all the necessary knowledge and labor - even helping me to select the proper building materials. Included in the job is also a large deck that is getting all new deck boards, steps, and a bench running the full length of the railing. I already paid a lot of money. ($14,000 and counting total cost so far.) This project is going on right now as I am writing this. The old, deteriorating shed was demolished this past Monday, the rest of the demolition was finished up Thursday, All the materials I purchased were delivered on a big flat bed truck from the big box store on Friday (yesterday). The site of the structure has already been marked with string and stakes, my deck has no deck boards, and I have a 20 yard dumpster on the curb in front of my house that is filled to the rim from the demolition. The builder and his worker (his son) are going to be back early Monday morning to continue work. And while this man and his son are experienced fence, deck, and shed builders, I'm realizing that this is more of a residential structure. I did explain all this to the builder - exactly what I wanted - but I'm now coming to see that his advice has not been of the caliber I had expected. So this is why I am having anxiety and trying to figure this out quickly. I have no time. I have no one to consult locally, and the work is progressing daily. Whatever I am going to do as far as changing the building materials, I need to do it FAST. This structure is going up, and will be completed by the end of this upcoming week, by Nov 21. Of course I can buy new 2×6 or 2×8 roof rafters and have my builder pick them up in his truck, or maybe even get them delivered if it can be done in time (I can't fit it in my car), but I know my guy is not going to be willing to take back lumber that has already been delivered. Even though he assured me that once he was done, I would have no problem finishing out the structure with insulation, etc, by. myself But apparently building basics sheds & decks doesn't mean you know how to build a structure appropriate for occupancy.

I'm totally willing to take a hit on the 2×4s already sitting in my back yard that are intended for the roof. I'm already in so far financially, and I want this to turn out right. I can purchase the 2×6 or 2×8s, and I'll just have left over 2×4s. But if I could at least leave the walls at 2×4, that would be a help, even if it meant more expensive insulation.

And as far as the ridge vent needing soffit vents - I did do my research on that. It was after work had already begun, but I did find out the hot roof and cold roof info. And yes, there are going to be soffit vents, along with the ridge vents. I clarified that with my builder yesterday.

So could I get away with leaving the walls at 2×4? And if so, could I still use 2×8 on the roof, or should I limit it to 2×6. My plan at this point is to leave an air gap between the roof and 2" thick XPS rigid insulation cut to fit between the rafters and then sealed with canned foam insulation or tape (although tape seems a bad idea to me). Then another layer of 2 inch XPS rigid foam in full sheets, attached to the roof rafters. But if I upgrade to 2×6, or 2×8, perhaps I could use fiberglass insulation, and then cover that with the 2" XPS foam boards attached to the rafters. Would standard fiberglass insulation still leave me an air gap for the air to flow from the ridge vent to the soffit vents?

I just need to figure this out within the next 48 hours definitively so I can get what I need in time. I appreciate the advice from all.

I attached a photo of the site in it's current state. I just took this pic Friday. You can see the deck boards have already been removed, and to the left, out of view, a big section of my fence has been removed as well because it was on top of the deck boards. The blue circle is there because I was showing an electrician where the current wiring comes up out of the ground. There was a smaller shed on that site that was torn down on Monday. If you can zoom in, you can see the yellow string where the new building is going to be. It's going to be larger than the old one, and part of it is going to be on top of that little pond you can see above the retaining wall at rear of deck. That pond is going to be filled in Monday morning, and the holes will be dug for the 6×6 posts. They will be over 36" down in concrete footings, below the frostline.

I have "before" pics, but they're on my phone. I will add them too though. And I'll add photos as the progress continues in case anyone's interested. I really appreciate the advice, so I will at least post some pics to to show how I'm using that advice as the project progresses each day. No work Sat or Sun, but by Monday evening there will be more visible progress and I'll post updated pics of it. Thanks again.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Well, they build houses down south with 2×4 walls, but bear in mind they usually have intersecting walls to add rigidity. A lot depends on the pitch of the roof and how it will be framed. If he plans on building trusses with the 2×4s for the ceiling that would be a different story. If he just plans on the roof joists sitting on the side wall and having them extend up to a ridge beam you will definitely have problems and the first heavy wet snowstorm could be disastrous. There should also be some type of horizontal members tying the two outside walls together so they don't spread outward letting your roof sag. I see you have a pool and it looks like you live in a residential area. Did you get a permit for this? Will it be inspected? Again, are there any building plans you can look at? All those Amish shed places build fairly large structures only with 2×4s but they use truss construction and none are ever that wide as the have to go over the road.


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## Pezking7p (Nov 17, 2013)

The big box store will always take back the 2×4's, you just have to get them there. Do the insulation right. Put in as much as you can afford, and seal the heck out of the Windows, doors, and walls, that way heating and cooling will be easy and CHEAP.

As for the builders, ask them to take a day or two off. It's your building, not theirs. Don't get stuck with something you don't want because of their advice and timeline.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Boy, reading all this, I think you have to step back a bit and slow these guys down. They are probably wanting to finish as many jobs as possible as soon as possible since their workload will slow down appreciably in a month or so, when the snow really hits.

This guy, as far as I can see, is not knowledgeable in buildings beyond the "shed" stage. That means thinner walls, unheated areas, improper moisture retention.

Lumber can always be returned if not used.

One thing I'd want to know is this: Do you live in the Southern half of PA where snowfall might be 25" a year and temps are actually moderate, or are you in the Northern half, where you can see 70" of snow with temps that can go below freezing and just stay there for three-four weeks on end? Huge difference in stud size, insulation considerations, and to be honest, heatpumps just don't work worth a hoot at 5'. They just run and run. 
Your location means everything here. And this is an occupied space, a building…not a shed. He needs to think in those terms.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

You could use the extra 2×4s to turn the 2×4 walls into 2×8 walls. I don't think it would add any structural strength but would widen the walls so you could fit R-19 insulation in.

If you want the best insulation, and can afford it, spray (Styrofoam) insulation is considered the best. It will get into all cracks. You would have to run your electric first or use thin wall conduit so you could pull wire latter.

As for returning extra materials, if your contractor will not do it you could go to U-Hall and rent a pickup truck for a day. I have done this to pickup hardwoods or sheet goods that don't fit in my van.

How are you building this without a building permit? I would have thought that the building department would have asked many of these questions. Also, you may have to get permission to make changes if you are going the permit route.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thank you for the replies. Dhazelton brought up an interesting point about roof trusses that I hadn't previously mentioned due to my own ignorance of the difference. The builder told at the beginning of all this that YES, he was going to build roof trusses from the 2×4s. And he said he was building the roof with a 4/12 pitch. The walls will be 8' high. What does this mean as far as the rafter size issue that's been discussed? Does that mean the 2×4's would be sufficient if the purpose is to construct roof trusses? I haven't mentioned trusses earlier in this thread because it didn't occur to me - I just called it "a roof". But I did send a text to my builder today asking him to call me if he was stopping at the store before starting work here tomorrow morning. I had intended to ask him to purchase 2×6s or 2×8s for the roof, but if the fact that roof trusses are being built changes this necessity, perhaps I should leave it alone? Or should I tell him I want a rafter roof instead? Almost all the materials for the job have already been delivered, but there are still a few things he said he was going to pick up from the store himself. Since I'm funding the purchase, I can ask to add some lumber that will fit in his truck. But maybe trusses would be better? Whether he calls from the store, or whether he comes here to work first, I am going to have a discussion about the roof and the walls. And as far as asking him to take a few days off, that's not really an option. I chose to only have them work Mon - Fri, and we made an agreement that the project would proceed daily, weather permitting. And this week is supposed to be really nice, Sun and temps in the 60's. But I do have the days I need to make any changes because the deck is being done first. A few repairs and a few posts have to go into the ground for that, and then the deck boards, and the built-in benches, followed by putting the section of fence back in place at the side of the deck. I specifically asked the builder to do the deck first because I want the fence back in place as soon as possible.
Specifically: Why would a builder want to build trusses for the roof of my building instead of a traditional rafter roof?
And secondly: Would it be in my best interest to request that a traditional rafter roof be built? 
3rd: If so, would a traditional rafter roof be any more, or any less, labor intensive?

I was about to ask what the difference is between trusses and a roof, but I just looked it up instead. Now I understand the difference, but it leads to new questions.

To answer other questions I was asked: I live in southwest PA (suburbs, 15 miles north of Pittsburgh), where the snowfall is less than the northern part of the state.

As for the roof pitch/slope, I know the the plan is for it to be 4/12. And the walls will go all the way to 8'. My builder said he's doing it this way to provide me the maximum space in the loft areas I requested at each end of the building. The lofts floors will be about 7' high, and I'll have about 4-1/2 or 5' of space under the roof. Not enough to stand up straight, but plenty of room for storage.

As far as building permits: I stopped in at my township office before any work started and spoke to the woman who handles everything in their entire office - from building permits to water bills. It's a very small township. In fact, this woman is the only person I've ever seen or spoken to at my township office in the 3 years that I've lived here - and I've been there a few times. There are a couple of elected officials, but I've never seen them. So I asked this woman (who is always pleasant and helpful) about how I could get a permit for my deck and building project. I was told, because the structure was non-residential and under 1000 sq. ft., that a building permit was NOT required. Instead, they have something called a Zoning Permit, which has to do with distance from property lines. But because I was tearing down an already existing shed structure, and building on the same spot, this township employee advised me to save my $40 and "just go ahead and build it". I also asked about a permit to have a 20 yard dumpster on my street for 7 days (no driveway, just on-street parking), and to this she answered that there have never been any issues on my street with dumpsters, and that I really didn't need that permit either. I was concerned because I see the police patrolling my street sometimes, but the township woman told me that unless someone calls in a complaint, the police won't bother with it. And she was right - they've ignored it for a week so far. But I did talk to all my neighbors before hand - the neighbors on the left and right, and to the neighbors behind the fence in the pic I posted. I also talked to my neighbors across the street (in the front of the house, not seen in photo), and they've been super helpful with leaving space for me to park since my 2 spaces are occupied by the dumpster. I'm lucky to live on a really quiet, dead end-street where all the neighbors know each other and are helpful and respectful of each other. My neighbors behind the fence where the workshop is being built often spend time in their back yard, and before any work started, I asked them if there were any days they would prefer to have peace and quite. I also asked them if they cared what height I built the workshop to, if they cared if it was a bit higher than my gazebo that's seen to the right of the building site (They said they didn't care, but I doubt they'd be happy if I built one of those 2 story shed structures that would loom over their backyard. But because I respect them, I wouldn't do something like that.) I think all of these reasons are why there is no issue about a zoning permit. But it's not as if I want to build something sub-par that would be a danger or risk to anyone. I want a structure that is of quality construction. For example, even though this builder would do the electrical wiring, I chose to hire a licensed electrician to handle all of that. Sorry for the long explanation, but I thought this permit issue deserved a complete answer because I don't agree with cutting corners and/or risking safety when constructing a building of any type, official permit or not.

Spray foam insulation was mentioned for the walls if I was willing to spend more. I've realized now that I'd rather invest more now, and save $$ in the long-run, so I've abandoned the idea of trying to keep costs down. Now that I've already spent so much, I just want to spend however much more is necessary to get this finished right. If spray foam in the walls would be best, I'd like to know. Would spray foam give me enough R-value in 2×4 walls? The only reason I'd like to keep the walls at 2×4 is to avoid lose more interior space.

I also was wondering if I need some kind of house-wrap or similar? For a structure like I need, that I'm going to be spending many hours in, what is the order that the walls are assembled as far as insulation & moisture barrier/wrap, and any air gaps if needed. In what order are these things layered? I found so many different opinions when searching.

The bottom line is this: At this point I am willing to spend more money than I had planned because I was not fully informed at that time. I have a few days to get the materials, and I'm even going to tell my builder that I'm willing to pay him more if it is more labor intensive. I think he is operating with the assumption that I am unwilling to pay more than originally agreed, yet I keep wanting more than originally discussed. I don't want to be taken advantage of, but neither do I want to take advantage of this man (who I met because he is the father of a guy I've worked with for years). Tomorrow morning, hopefully in person, I am going to have a talk with this builder. I am going to tell him in no uncertain terms, that this building is not to be thought of as a shed, but as a structure for full-time human occupancy, like a mini-house.

Thanks again for all the replies. I'll post pics as the project proceeds this week.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

As far as the roof trusses go I would think it would take him longer to build trusses on site than to frame it conventionally but I'm not there and not him so I can't judge. You can see from this pic that it's fairly common to build scissor trusses from 2×4s.










As far as house wrap goes, I don't know what you plan on using for siding. House wrap is a pretty new invention and if your building is well insulated it probably isn't necessary. Especially as your building is in sort of a little mini compound and probably won't get much direct wind.

To get the most R value in a 2×4 wall you would use closed cell spray foam. I did that on my attic roof deck. It was $6,000 a number of years ago for a two inch layer. Using more than a couple of inches of closed cell foam is a waste as it is a totally impervious layer with no open channels for air to infiltrate and it becomes an issue of diminshing returns above that thickness. Some people do what is called 'flash and batt', a layer of closed cell foam and then a layer of fiberglass without a vapor barrier. The problem with that is the closed cell foam becomes the vapor barrier but it's on the wrong side of the wall. Unless you plan on adding 2×2s on the face of all your studs save your money and buy R13 for the walls - trying to pack R19 meant for a 2×6 wall makes it less effective. You could put unfaced R13 in the walls and then add a layer of foil faced foam board, but they are pricey. As long as you button it up tight with no air gaps, THAT is more important to your comfort than R13 vs R19. I'd concentrate on superinsulating the ceiling over the walls anyway. Keep us updated.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Sam,

We build 2×4 walls all the time in my area, but that means R13 insulation, which may not be enough for you. If you add insulation panels, its probably cheaper to take the 2×4's back and get 2×6's. Yes, you want it, but how important is it to insulate a shop like a house? It can get very expensive.

2×4 trusses are fine, too as long as they are build properly. My only question is the 4/12 pitch. -I'm from Florida, so I don't know.

Personally, I would use 2×6 rafter/ridge beam construction for the roof because I like the lofted ceiling.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

Sam,

If the roof is actually being made with trusses that will result in a flat ceiling or lower framing of the trusses (like dhazelton's pic) with essentially an attic space, then you can insulate like any typical pitched roof home. You would attach batting to the bottom of the trusses. The insulation can be much thicker than the framing.

The entire attic space is then vented via soffit or gable vents, and ridge or other roof vents. Just make sure there is still open airflow from the soffits into the space.

In this way you can buy very thick insulation, 10" thick or maybe more. Even lay or blow more on top from inside the attic space.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

If you have a Lowes nearby you can buy cellulose insulation and they will loan you the machine to blow it in. It's the same R value as fiberglass and you could really pile it on if you put panels on the ceiling and leave yourself an attic door to get up there. Would make the soffitt vents and ridge vent unnecessary as well. That stuff is super cheap, it does compress after a while but that's okay - you could add more if you have a door up there.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Would make the soffitt vents and ridge vent unnecessary as well.
> - dhazelton


Why would blown in insulation eliminate the need for venting?


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Not about the type of insulation, but if you put in a ceiling and the insulation is all on that level the roof deck should stay fairly cold, and in a climate that doesn't get a lot of snow buildup I wouldn't worry about ice damming. Yes, vents are cheap enough to do….Trusses 16 on center makes using that space a moot point.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

> If you have a Lowes nearby you can buy cellulose insulation and they will loan you the machine to blow it in. It s the same R value as fiberglass and you could really pile it on if you put panels on the ceiling and leave yourself an attic door to get up there. Would make the soffitt vents and ridge vent unnecessary as well. That stuff is super cheap, it does compress after a while but that s okay - you could add more if you have a door up there.
> 
> - dhazelton


I vaguely recall reading that over time blown in insulation settles which decreases the R factor.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Not about the type of insulation, but if you put in a ceiling and the insulation is all on that level the roof deck should stay fairly cold, and in a climate that doesn t get a lot of snow buildup I wouldn t worry about ice damming. Yes, vents are cheap enough to do….Trusses 16 on center makes using that space a moot point.
> 
> - dhazelton


While ice dams may be an issue, venting is most commonly done to prevent condensation developing on the cold roof. The ventilation removes the moisture. Additionally, it can reduce the temperature in the space in the summer, resulting in less cooling load.

It does depend on the conditions. For example, in a dry climate or a warm enough climate, you can have a hot roof (no ventilation). I happen to have that on my house.

I would think it is both cold and wet enough in the OP's location (Pennsylvania?) where ventilation would be recommended.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I was talking about insulating a flat ceiling. Gable vents will do more to reduce temps in the attic space if the ceiling is insulated.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> I was talking about insulating a flat ceiling. Gable vents will do more to reduce temps in the attic space if the ceiling is insulated.
> 
> - dhazelton


I thought you were saying no venting, but I guess you were just referring to the type of venting. I.E., go with a gable vents and don't bother with soffit or ridge vents.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

All the info I have gotten on this thread has been extremely helpful. I'm sorry I didn't update the progress the last few days, but I've been super busy with juggling my work so I can maintain an income, and dealing with this project. I've spent a lot of time researching and reading lately. I did do research before all this started, but apparently not enough, so now I'm trying to do research on the fly because decisions have to be made. But the progress has continued, and I have some updated photos of where things stand as of today, compared to the photo I took and posted on 11/15.

...But I also have some new issues and questions (electrical problems now) that I hope you guys can help me out with again. 

First though, I'll tell you my decision for insulation…. a decision I was able to finally make because of the advice I received right here.

Dhazelton and Clin: You guys both have taken so much time to give me info, and I used that info to do a bit of further research, which allowed to finally come up with a plan very different from what I first envisioned and explained days ago.

I had explained my intention to have some loft space under the roof, but that is no longer going to happen. I was a bit disappointed because I really wanted that storage space, but in the end I think I'll be better off without it. The reason being because I am going to have a ceiling instead. Since roof trusses are going to be used, and because it will be a small area anyway with a 4/12 pitched roof, I am going to use that area to insulate above the ceiling. Dhazelton mentioned he had spray foam above his ceiling when explaining about spray foam insulation for my walls, and Clin suggested that attic residential-type insulation of a standard kind (not spray foam) may be a good idea for me. This info ultimately led me to my choice. And this way I'll be able to get more a more economical form of standard insualtion, and there will be plenty of room to put in as much as I need. And the whole structure is definitely going to be sealed up tight. Dhazelton mention that sealing it up tight is the most important aspect of the insulation. When I talked to my builder the following day, he said the same thing. I didn't actually ask him directly, but when I asked him about his ideas for the insulation, he told me that I'll be okay because he's going to seal it up tightly. He told me that I would be much better off closing the under-roof space off with a ceiling; that doing so would provide me more comfort and better energy efficiency.

(I did say in an earlier post that I was not going to worry too much about finding lower cost methods, but that was before today when an electrician told me that what I though would be a fairly simple job is actually going to be $6000.)

So the floor is getting 2" thick extruded polystyrene foam board insulation cut to fit between the joists, and the floor going down over it is 23/32" sanded pine plywood (I got nicer stuff because I plan to leave it bare). I was going to use 4" of the foam board insulation (2 layers), but my builder convinced me that as long as it's sealed properly that the 2" will be sufficient. In the walls I am simply going to do the R-13 (with everything sealed tightly) and the ceiling will have lots of insulation above it in the "attic". Then the walls and ceiling will be 7/16" OSB.

I felt really good about all this until this afternoon when an electrician told me how much it would cost to run wiring up to my workshop. I though it wouldn;t be that difficult because my main breaker box panel is on the rear wall of my house, on the ground level (I don't have a basement). I thought the wire could just be run from there up to my shop, about 45 feet away. Since it runs under a deck the entire way (the lower deck is attached to the wall of my house directly under where the main breaker box is) except for the last 3 feet or so, where it has to come up at the retaining wall at rear of deck. My shop will be on the other side of the retaining wall, but only about a foot back from it. I thought this would make it a bit simpler to run the wire, but apparently it's not. The electrician said it doesn;t have to be buried under ground, but it has to run the entire length in PVC conduit that runs through the joists of the deck. And to make matters worse, the main breaker box panel should be upgraded from a 100 to 200 amp. I know that's not cheap, but in my case it's very complicated because I need a new disconnect. I was told that the line coming into my house (in the front, on the totally opposite corner of the house from my breaker box) is not adequate, and that it needs to be upgraded, and then pulled into the attic, dragged across the attic, and then down to the box in my laundry room. Just to have my house panel upgraded to 200 amp will be, this guy said, $3500. He did say that he could run the 100 amp sub-feed line from my house to my workshop and hook it up to my exsisting 100 amp main breaker box without upgrading to 200 amp, but it wouldn't be a good permanent solution. He said I could do the upgrade in the spring, because I told him that right now $6000 was too much for me to spend all at once. (Just the running of new wire from house and installation of new sub-panel in workshop was $2500) Then, after he left I had an idea. I thought maybe I could run that wire myself without hooking anything up. I thought I could just have the line ready to go at both ends so an electrician can hook it up without running any wire at all because that part would already be done.

I called this electrician back and he told me that I could do that part of the job, and that it would reduce my costs significantly, but that it had to be done just right or he wouldn't be able to hook it up when he arrived, and he would have to charge me a fee if he had to leave without working. He explained exactly where and how to place the wire, but now I'm in need of advice about this situation.

Does 100 amp sub-feed wire need to be in conduit if run above ground under a deck? It will be running along side of the above ground pool under the deck, does that matter?

I was told I have to run the PVC conduit through holes drilled in the deck floor joists. Would it be okay to attach it to the joists in a way that doesn't involve drilling holes through them?

It's so late right now, so I'm going to leave it at this. Hopefully I'll get some good tips and advice, as usual.

Here are some pics:

Pic 1: newly built steps from the back patio portion of deck (lower deck) where the back door of my house is. They lead up to the upper deck at pool level.










Pic 2: Under deck. You can see the new reinforcement joist boards. This deck was in pretty bad shape, and the guy who built it over 20 years ago didn't do very good quality work.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

More pics. I couldn't fit any more than 2 in my previous post.

Pic 1: This is right after the deck boards had all been installed on Wed 11/17., but before the building was started.










Pic 2: This is where things stand as of Friday 11/20.










I have more pics of close-ups, but it's 4 am. I think I'll wait till tomorrow to post more. In meantime, any tips on my questions from the previous post would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I ran my whole barn off a 60 A subfeed for 25 years without a problem.
That includes a 3HP ts and planer, a 2HP bandsaw and DC and a small air compressor and 20 8 foot flourescent lights.

My opinion (and I hate electrical threads) you need to look at exactly what machines you plan on having.
100A seems like overkill to me for a small shop.

That being said, I recently had an entire new 200A service put to my barn for $4000 and I never lifted a finger except to write the check.

Depends on where geographically, but $6K seems pretty high to me.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I think you have a very, very expensive electrician. I understand Pennsylvania can be be tricky with inspections and such, (heck of a revenue stream for them), but that is just too high.

I recently had my 100 amp service upgraded to 200 amp.

Included was a new line from the pole, new weatherhead popped through my roof, new locking outdoor panel for the meter and sub takeoffs, 2" conduit to now two panels in the house, correct wire run to both panels, (both conduit runs together were total about 28 feet), one original panel left but completely rewired with new neutral bars added, new breakers everywhere, inspected and finished, $2400. Took them a day and a half and they left me a box of five 20 amp breakers for future runs if needed.
They made one mistake and had to come back since the inspector caught it, obviously no extra charge.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Sounds like your insulation plan is the way to go.

As far as electric if you are only going to run a couple of woodworking tools and some efficient lights you could probably get by with a 60 amp panel run to the garage. Most houses today have 200 amp panels and it probably is a good time to upgrade. We have no idea how full your present box is, especially as it looks like you run a pool pump as well. But add your electric heater and AC onto that pool pump and suddenly you're blowing breakers. I don't know the reasoning behind having to run the wire through holes in the joists. It could probably just be run under them and affixed with hangers, you just have to be sure no one uses the conduit like a clothesline.

Yes, your feeder line should be in conduit even if you bury it (so no one puts a shovel into it), but plastic conduit is cheap. In the area where you do bury it you should also put red caution tape just under the ground surface so when someone decides to dig they will know what lies below. I would also run a telephone line in the conduit while you do it, just to have it there in case you want a phone extension or DSL out there in the future.

Your electrician is expensive - get a couple of more estimates.

As far as the deck work - why did he make your steps so the risers run to the top of the treads? Aesthetically it's sloppy and it just looks like he doesn't know how to build a set of stairs. And for the deck joists and cross blocks, no joist hangers required?


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree that 60 A would be fine. But at the same time, 100 A sub-panel is the same effort and just some larger wire.

Upgrade to 200 A service makes sense.

As far as running the wire, I'm not an electrician and am not familiar with the NEC as it applies to running a line like you need.

But one thing I'm confident of, is the line has to be secured so it can't move. Buried or in a conduit that is itself attached to something. I can't see why the conduit would have to be run through the deck joists. But I can see that it would have to be attached to it. After all, it's quite common to run conduit on the sides of structures. It's just anchored to the structure. typically with brackets.

But again, I'm not familiar with code. I'd just ask the electrician if it would be okay. It's actually pretty cool he's giving you any advise at all since you're essentially trying to get around having him do the work. But maybe he's busy enough and doesn't feel like crawling around in the dirt under a deck in the middle of November.

Concerning losing the loft storage you were anticipating, if it made sense given the trusses, what about adding an access door to the "attic' from the outside at he gable end. Again depending on the trusses, you might be able to have some decking in the space. Then you would have some storage for boards and other long materials you can slide in an out through the access door.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

The line going to your shop has to be in conduit if it is above ground. It can be run under the joists if there is clearance. It doesn't need to go thru. If the wire is direct bury it doesn't need to be in conduit underground.
I personally would go with conduit all the way to shop. When burying electrical you have specific depths you must meet. You don't want somebody digging into it because it is too shallow or deeper than they expect.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

As Dan suggested, don't scrimp around windows and doors.

I worked with a handyman who promoted himself as an expert and caring for his customers. In my opinion, he was anything but. I helped him install a window and, since it was his job, we did it his way. He didn't even pack insulation in the cracks between the window and the framing and only relied on caulk to seal the window.

When done, we could carry on a conversation, comfortably, through the closed and secured window. My own, on the other hand, do not allow ANY air movement, even though I installed them on a forty year old house with nothing more than tar paper vapor barrier. If there is no air movement, the only sound that can get through is from the movement of the walls.

I used the tape sold for sealing around windows, and the non-expanding foam (to avoid pressure on the window that could compromise the seal or make it hard to close.

Sound is rarefaction and compressions of air waves. Stop the air waves and you stop sound. As such, Tyvek is an excellent investment, as is taping every rip and joint [using Tyvek appropriate tape].

In an area where electric isn't cheap, moisture, air and temperature barriers will pay for themselves in comfort and cost savings. Too, sealing and insulating will, obviously, cut down on noise escaping from the shop.



> The big box store will always take back the 2×4 s, you just have to get them there. Do the insulation right. Put in as much as you can afford, and seal the heck out of the Windows, doors, and walls, that way heating and cooling will be easy and CHEAP.
> 
> As for the builders, ask them to take a day or two off. It s your building, not theirs. Don t get stuck with something you don t want because of their advice and timeline.
> 
> - Pezking7p


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

After reading some of the comments since my last post, I've decided that I definitely am going to get a few more estimates from electricians. The electrician who gave me the high estimate was referred to me by the real estate agent from whom I purchased my house, but he was just one name on a list of a dozen she e-mailed me. He does seem to be qualified, and as Clin said, it is cool that he gave me very detailed instructions on how to run the wire so he could hook it up at both ends. But I do think it has more to do with the fact that he doesn't want to crawl around the dirt on a cold December day. He's busy enough that he could "maybe squeeze me in" before Christmas, or else in January. (I don't really want to wait that long to get into my new shop.) When I inquired about doing the "labor intensive" part of the job, the first thing told me was that I would have to make sure it was done exactly right, to code, or else he would have to leave when he arrived to do the connections. He told me that if he had to leave because I had made a mistake in the code, that I would be charged a $150 fee. I hesitated and said that it was just an idea, and that it would probably be better to let him do the whole thing, but then he basically encouraged me by telling me that I could do it, I just had to follow his instructions exactly. He told me what parts and how many of each I would need to run the PVC conduit, where exactly certain elbows had to go, where LBs were needed, etc. I think he has enough business that he will still be plenty busy without taking a job that involves spending a cold day crouching under a deck in the dirt, but if the line where already run, then he could just take it into the house on one end, and into the workshop on the other. But even so, I'm concerned that this man's rates are just too high, regardless of the scope of work. I'll see what some others have to say, although I am going to run the 220 line and conduit myself, so it will be ready for whoever does the hook-up. That will definitely eliminate some cost.

Since the last pics I posted the other day, work has been progressing. I'll include updated photos in this post. On Saturday my builder had a different helper with him, his brother who was a roofer for years. Now it seems like the plan for the roof has changed once again. Although if an experienced roofer recommended a something different than the planned trusses, I'm fine with it. I know the roof framing is now 2×6 for one thing. And also, when the walls were finished being framed, the builder ran a 20' long board right where the peak of the roof will be. You can see in one of my photos the framing member that is sticking up above the walls. By the end of today, they had added the same thing to the opposite wall, and connected them at the very top with a 20' long 2×6. I can look at that and see that the slope is not going to be 4/12 like I was told, it's going to be steeper, more like 6/12 or maybe 8/12. That makes the peak of the building a bit higher, but it will probably be much better for rain and snow. I can only imagine a board like this being run the length of the peak if they are planning to simply frame the roof traditionally with rafters. But, as Clin suggested, this will be a good place to store lumber if I add an access door. I'm just going to do it later, on my own, after I have my shop up and running.

As Dhazelton pointed out, it does seem like the deck joists are lacking joist hangers. I'm not sure why he chose to attach them without joist hangers. I did purchase the number of joist hangers the builder requested at the start of this project, but when he found that the deck needed more structural repairs that he originally thought, I guess he decided he could forgo the joist hangers. I'm not really pleased with this, but it's an awkward situation because this builder is the father of a guy I've worked with for years. (Another lesson learned - don't hire your friend's family members). The steps were another issue brought up. I don't know exactly why he built them like that. The old steps were built in the same design and footprint (only they had no structural support and were literally falling apart and collapsing), and the builder told me that the best thing to do would be to build the same design and size of stairs because there was a big void under them. Since I didn't want to replace the deck boards of the lower part of the deck (back patio of my house), I agreed to this. But I was told by the builder that while the steps would be in the same footprint and shape, that he would build them properly, both structurally and cosmetically. You can't see it in the photos I took, but the top step is actually a bit lop-sided, as in not level. I almost made a big fuss about it, but I decided to simply let it go. I'm paying a very reasonable fee to this man, he's my co-worker's father, and I'd rather just move on and let him concentrate on the workshop build. I decided that I will rebuild the steps myself in the spring and make them really nice. I came to this decision after quite a bit of thought, and in the end, simply decided that the steps weren't a big enough issue to sour my relationship with this builder - especially when he still has so much work left to do.

Anyway, here are some pics of the last couple days of construction. And as always, I am always open to suggestions and advice. I really appreciate all the LJ members who have been so generous in sharing their time and knowledge.

Below photos are the progress as of 1 p.m. Monday 11/23. By the end of the day the walls were all framed and the peak of the roof was established, as I explained above.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

I would think that 2×6 is not enough for roof joists, but this calculator tells me slightly otherwise:

http://www.pole-barn.info/roof-rafter-calculations.html

I'm still a little concerned that the outer walls may spread allowing the ridge to sag if you don't use a truss or frame a ceiling in.

I don't see any framing for windows. I'd have something on the south side so you get some sunshine and ventilation in there. As far as the steps are concerned you could always skin them with a new tread that's nicely mitered later, but that changes your rise on the first and last step and would feel odd. These guys aren't fine carpenters obviously, but it would not have taken any more time to do it right. Soldier on.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

id suggest having some collar ties on the rafters to keep walls from pushing out with any snow/ice loads. check codes, but they might be able to be higher than wall heigth to be accepable and give ya more headroom


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Not halfway through the first cup yet and distracted by the first snow, but I thought I saw mention of a deck. If it ties to the shop, spend some time making sure it's done right. I see more decks tied straight to building structures without drainage or other means of protecting the structure than I could shake a 2x at.

Take a few minutes out and review suggested techniques to make sure your building flashes and seals the tie, and spaces it for drainage. Otherwise, that's a lot of money to beat on for the convenience of a deck.

These things apply to stairs too, of course.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh, one other detail - make sure that door is wide enough to get your equipment in and projects out. A french door might have been nice. Plan a gradual ramp up to it.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

> Oh, one other detail - make sure that door is wide enough to get your equipment in and projects out. A french door might have been nice. Plan a gradual ramp up to it.
> 
> - dhazelton


I definitely agree that a french door would have been nice. Before I went to select a door and windows, I asked the builder if it would be a problem to choose a double door. He told me I should get a pre-hung steel door, but that I should avoid the double doors because, he said, they would cause me problems down the road. He told me to get a 36" exterior door. So that's what I did. I think I'll be able to get everything through the door way, but I should have thought about projects coming out, and the fact that I may want to buy a big cabinet saw in the future that is larger than the doorway. I suppose if I build a large project that's too big for the door, I'll have to do my final assembly outside. I have that big gazebo which will be right outside the door to my shop, so I guess I could build a outdoor workbench/assembly table to keep out there. I did get windows though. I know you can't see the framing for them, but that's because the builder told me he was going to get the walls up and then frame the windows in afterwards, wherever I want them. I got a good deal on 2 brand new double-hung windows that are pretty large at 36" x 60". I plan to put them on the 20' wall facing my house, which is south facing. I also got a smaller double-hung window to put on the same 14' wall as the door. The door also has a large window in it. If anyone has another idea for window placement, please let me know.

The roof is finished being framed now, and the builder assured me that this roof will be totally sufficient to support snow loads without sagging. I guess we'll see. As far as a ramp to the door, I'll be building that myself afterwards. 
I've been assured that the building will be "under roof" by end of the day tomorrow before rain is expected, and the rest will be finished on Thursday. Thursday also happens to be Thanksgiving, but my builder asked my if I minded if they worked, and I told them it was fine with me. Of course there will still be more work to be done, but nothing else can happen till the electric is wired. I plan to run the line over the holiday weekend so I can get an electrician to hook it up, but as I get one scheduled, I'm okay with waiting a week or so. I think my family (human and furry) need a break from workmen traipsing all over the place and everything that goes along with a construction project. After 18 straight days of that, a week long break before the electrician comes will probably be for the best. And then when my builder comes back to do the insulation and interior walls it'll only be a couple days of work. Not to go off topic too much, but all this construction work has probably stressed out my cats more than anyone. My backyard is totally enclosed with a 6 foot fence, topped with a "cat safe fence". It's hard to see in photos because it's made of mesh, but it really does work to prevent the cats from escaping the yard. The cats can climb the fence, but when they reach the top the can't go over because the mesh is angled inward by the brackets that support it. So the backyard is the cats' "territory". They're used to going in and out at will, but if it's not freezing cold, they prefer to spend most of their time outside. With this project going on, they've been stuck inside most of the time. For a week a fence section was down so they couldn't go out at all, and now they can only go out for a little bit in the evenings, after the day's work is done. And every evening that they go outside, they run to inspect the new atrocities that have been committed to their territory. Anyone who knows cats understands how they hate change of any kind, especially when it involves their areas being messed with. But I digress….

To reply to Kelly's comment about decks, I can say that fortunately the deck is not attached to my shop in any way. It does attach to the house, but at a much lower level, only 6 inches above ground. Still, I'm going to check to see how it is attached to my house after reading your post.

I have some new pics I took at 4:30 p.m. today (yesterday now) of the completed roof framing. Now that the framing is complete, please let me know if there are any issues I should be aware of. I know there where comments about the roof being structurally sound enough, and that is definitely a concern, and I would appreciate further comments after seeing the completed framing.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

So they DID frame for a ceiling. Good - the walls won't spread and the ridge won't sag. AND you can get R38 up there. Coming along nicely.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree, roof framing looks fine. And you can load up that ceiling with as much insulation as you could ever want.

Note how the roof framing forms a triangle. That's what you want to see. Triangles are inherently very stable structures. With triangles, given the fixed length of the three sides, you can only get that one specific triangle and the set of angles it has. This contrasts with a rectangle;e made up of four sides. That can rack and be square or a wide range of parallelograms.

Of course, when it comes to framing, all that stability assumes the framing stays in one plane and can't twist or buckle. But that's prevented by having it tied to the tops of the walls and and ridge. The main thing is the roof sheathing that ties them altogether.

I still vote for the double door. Aside from moving stuff in and out, you may find it helpful to open the doors when working with long boards. For example, allowing you to position your table saw nearer the doors.

Even if you don't put that in now, you could still have them frame for it now (including the proper header to carry the weight over the door. That way down the road, you could just pull out you single door, cut the exiting framing back to the rough opening for the double door and not have to add any new framing.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On doors, a thirty-six inch (3-0) is standard, but I wanted to be able to run things through with relative ease. As such, I built my own forty-eight incher using ridged foam. I beefed up the areas where the four hinges and handles or locks would go. The large door is nice for moving large things in and out.

You can buy metal for the exterior at any sheet metal shop and they will even bend the ends to your dimensions.

I like my doors to be bassackwards. That is, they open to the outside, with the hinges exposed to thieves and the weather. The reason is simple - the harder they kick it, the more they close it.

Having the hinges exposed is not a concern. Even if the pins are removed, the door will not come off. This is accomplished by simply leaving one screw out of the top and bottom hinges and, instead, inserting a nail that's left protruding enough if extends through the other side of the hinge, when the door is closed. Now, even with the pins gone, the door will not come out.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Remember, there are two ceilings. One can be used for storage and one can't. Generally, you could store empty boxes and things, but that is the limit of most ceilings for storage.

You are well past the stage of being able to convert your ceiling to storage, but it can be beefed up for light use.

Most of us grew up with the method of sistering beams to crank up support. A simple, on line search will reveal even better ways of more than doubling the load capacity of a given 2x. For example, sistering a 2×4 with even a 2×8 may only increase it's load bearing capacity a few hundred pounds, but adding thin, 1/8" strips of iron 1-1/2" wide and as long as the span can take weight capacity up multiple times.

The reason the thin strips of metal work so good is, the metal doesn't stretch.

The only draw back is, you have to work harder to attach sheetrock and other things to the ceilings.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Another note- No matter what someone might say about wrapping the building, do it. You need to stop air movement and state of the art wraps do it best. They will cut down on both heat transfers and sound into or out of the shop.

Even patching holes and rips in the wrap, and tying it to door and window flashing can completely change how moisture and heat behave with regard to your building. If little holes and rips can make that big a difference, the wrap itself, obviously, will make a huge difference.


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## csa3057 (Nov 11, 2015)

Kelly mentioned wrapping the building, and this is something I had thought about, and actually asked my builder about, at the start of this project. He assured me that the building would be sealed up tight, but we never bought housewrap. How labor intensive is wrapping a building? Could I buy it at a big box store first thing in the morning, or would it need to be special ordered?

I think they are trying to finish up the job tomorrow (today). I have pics from the end of work today to show the progress. All that's left is to finish shingling the roof, and to install the the pre-hung door, 1 more window, and the through-the-wall heater/AC. And the T1-11 siding needs to go up too. I guess the house wrap would have to go on now, before any further work is done? I'm doubtful they can actually finish what's left to do in just one more day, even without the housewrap. So if it's not too time consuming to actually wrap the house, I could ask them to do it. Any more info/opinions on this subject would be appreciated.

I think Clin's idea about a possibly adding a larger door in the future seems like a good plan. I'm going to discuss making the necessary adjustments first thing in the morning.

After this part of the job is completed, nothing else can happen till the electric is hooked up. I'm going to run the 100 amp sub-feed line myself, as discussed in a few earlier posts. I won't be hooking anything up, just making sure 100' of line is there between the house and workshop. I'm running the line under the deck in PVC conduit, but I don't know what size wire to get. I was going to order the 100 amp sub feed line, but it appears that you can buy 100 amp sub-feed line in varying gauges. Is there a certain number I need for my purposes? There's going to be a sub-panel in my workshop, and it's going to be running a 30 amp heater/AC on a 220 line, as well as a few few 110 outlets and lights. I know I may have to upgrade my house service, but for now I'm just going to run my shop from my 100 amp house service. In the spring, before it's time to use the house AC and pool pump, I'm going to upgrade to 200 amp service. But that will at least give me a few months to put a dent in this debt I've just incurred. But for now, I really want to get into my shop and do some woodworking. If anyone knows specifically what kind of 100 amp sub-feed line would be appropriate for what I'm trying to accomplish, I would really appreciate the info.

Photo below is the most up-to-date progress, as of 4:30 pm on Thanksgiving day.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

House wrap goes over plywood sheathing. But your sheathing is actually your siding so you wouldn't put it up. But seriously, your little enclave must be really well sheltered from hard wind. I wouldn't worry about not having it. If you put vinyl up at a later date you could put it on then. It's super easy to do, easier with two people, just goes on with a slap tacker or regular stapler. I never understood the science behind it, people are religious about taping every seam and then they puncture it with thousands of holes from installing siding…It's plastic and the holes aren't really self sealing like that rubber roof membrane….

As far as what gauge wire it depends on the total length, heavier gauge if long run. I don't know the rules so I'd ask the electrician what he wants. You can never go too heavy, but too small a gauge and the wire heats up due to resistance.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

House wrap is pretty much that standard and I would definitely do it. 
Trouble is, if you buy a whole roll you'll have a ton left over. I would just give it to them.

Too late now (well not really) but I would have pressed about the double door. You may regret only having 3 feet of access. There is no problem with them other than a PITA to install sometimes (maybe that's why he steered you away?) They are pretty pricey, too, but I've found a couple of them on CL from remodels for a fraction of the cost.

Looking good definitely glad to see those 2×6 rafters.
In a small shop like this, I would leave the ceiling high or lofted, which mean just install some collar ties a couple feet below the peak.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The housewrap can be bought at a big box. The last role I used did an entire house with only a little left over. That was about a couple hundred linear feet. You can get roles of different lengths and heights. Buy the tape too, for rips, tears, windows and doors.

The wrap on my shop is over the 2x's, and the T-111 (plywood sheathing) over the top of that. It is installed with the writing to the outdoors, because it is designed to allow moisture out, but not in.

The first wrap I did sold me on it. Without insulation or rock on, it well sealed to window and doors and all rips and holes taped, and with the siding on, the house was unbelievably on its way to being sound proof.

Wrap serves two purposes, one is to act as a moisture barrier. The other, a barrier to air movement. Tar paper did a good job of keeping moisture at bay, but there were a lot of joints that needed to be tended before it could be said to stop air movement.

Supposedly, SOME sidings can do what wraps do. I can't say yea or nay to that, for want on knowledge and experience. What I can say is, I have never seen a caulk joint hold up without maintenance, so, in time, gaps at butt joints would allow leaks. For example, Hardy plank needs a backer behind every butt joint and enough gap, for expansion and contraction, filled with a GOOD elastomeric caulk.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On electric, and from years in electronics and a few in electrical, I'm with dhazelton - you can't go too big, aside the fact you may not be able to cram it into main panel breaker.

Most electricians I've met are fans of doing little more than needed. For example, the one who looked at my relatively new, Square D 100 amp panel didn't think I needed to upgrade. I pointed out to him, I'm running, per readings:

15 amps for the main dust collector
7 amps for the cabinet saw
15 amps for lighting
5 amps for sound

42 amps

Now add a buddy in the shop

9 amps for the small collector
7 amps for the miter

16 amps

Then there is:

- I have to charge drill and impact batteries.
- I may run a laptop or desk top there too.
- Since my garage is on the end of the shop, the panel may have to power a car battery charger, or engine heater, while two people are inside making saw dust.
- While a couple of us are playing with sharp spinning things inside, a steamer may be running outside.

Obviously, it would be wise for me to presume an additional consumption of power for things not yet thought of, and that might be. For now, lets assume fifteen amps. That's, roughly, 72 amps leaving me a margin of LESS than twenty-eight amps.

Assuming I should only use around 80% of the capacity, rather than the full 100 amps, I have eighty amps available, so the margin would be in the area of 8 amps.

That 8 amps, give or take, has to power my furnace and heat pump, which rely on 40 and 60 amp breakers.

In the end, it's far cheaper to go up a size on the cable so I don't have to replace it, in the future.

Just a little food for thought.


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