# Is it Art? Or bland tasteless CNC carving?



## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

After seeing some comments here about CNC carving, I just couldn't help myself and had to ask this question:

Is this door art, or bland tasteless CNC carving? It took me a couple of weeks to design, tweak, apply toolpaths, run trials, then re-design, tweak some more, and finally output and wait 6 hours while this carved out. Then it had to be assembled, sanded and finished.
Now you can ask me for some of these doors for accent pieces, and I custom fit them to your project.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

The door is solid Cherry, with several coats of sealer, glaze and lacquer. It's 16" x 21".

The geometric design was inspired by a door I saw in Wayne Bartons' book on chipcarving, but the rest of the design is entirely mine. All the other elements of this door were created by me, from scratch in ArtCAM pro, and then carved out on a KOMO CNC router.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Underdog,

I don't care what anyone else thinks about your door or how it was done, all I can say is it's gorgeous and I can see there was a lot of talent involved creating it.

Thanks for sharing!


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

It is not the tool, but rather, the vision, with which art is made.


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## bullhead1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Very nice. I like the your design. I can't wait to here the responses on this from those that have dovetail jigs, incra fences, router lifts, mortis and tenon machines, and the list goes on. I look at the cnc router as another woodworking tool but I am kind of biased (wink wink!).


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Narrow minded and foolish is how I would describe anyone who says CNC doesn't have a place in woodworking. That door is really quite extraordinary. Those who expect that kind of work to be hand carved by a bespectacled, apron wearing artisan probably wouldn't want to have to pay for it. We live in a mass production society. Everyone's got more because mass production means they can afford more. It's no different to the cars we drive being assembled by robots. 
And anyone who chimes in with 'but it took six hours and all the time to programme it' should be thinking of the time savings on the hundredth panel or thousandth panel.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You know, copy carving machines have been around for
probably 100 years and a lot of 20th century production
carving on furniture was done on these machines - 
Ethan Allen lines and so forth. People seen to like it
and not mind or even be aware of how it was done
with a machine.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I indeed think it is art and cnc is just another paint brush.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Beautiful work!

I am curious about how you finish the piece after the CNC routing. That has to have a major impact on the final result and figures into the "art" aspect of the project. The subtle changes in shading in the background and on the features of the acorns and leaves can't result from flooding the piece with finish. If you were to give the piece fresh from the CNC machine to ten WJs you would get ten different results. How do you treat you projects?


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

No, machine produced so it can't be art, now if only I could afford one of these non-art producing machines I could make some really sweet looking non-art myself.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

+5 to *Loren*s response. So the original is done in a computer, takes the same vision, and the idea that carvings haven't been mass reproduced for ages should soften anyone's feelings about cnc…


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the positive responses. I do believe it makes my point with no further explanation..

But never let it be said I didn't beat a dead horse to death.

I was talking to my wife about this a while ago, and she and I agree that it's the mind behind the work that makes it art or not. She said she's seen pieces carved by hand that weren't art, and I agree. I've seen work done by machine that was beautiful and work done by hand that was awful and vice versa.

I'm obviously of the opinion that a CNC router is just another tool in the hand of the craftsman or artist.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Russ,

If you give me a sketch I can make your dream come to life… For a price. :-D


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## CplSteel (Jun 22, 2012)

Sure its art, and it is original, but it is not unique because you can always duplicate it (even if you don't). Like a print versus an original painting, it takes something off but that doesn't mean it's not art.

Now, is it good art… that is up to you and who cares what anyone else thinks.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Not only is it craftsmanship but it's double craftsmanship. The time you spent programming the cnc and the effort to assemble the door is indeed an art. Some of us know how to make very nice solid wood cabinet doors. Some know how to use a cnc machine. You, my friend have combined the two. All I can say is "Wow".

Speaking of renners assembly line you could spend all day producing panels for others and selling them. If you can take a picture and produce what the client wants you have a business for high end carpenters.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

The question is misleading, as you are comparing two different sets of skills. CNC requires computer knowledge, doing it by hand requires carving knowledge. You spent the time at the computer, your counter part would spend it at the workbench.

So in that vein I will throw a few questions back at you, what are you, a computer wizard or a woodworker? Could you do this by hand? I believe that people who object to CNC are those who would be able to do this by hand. For a purist, doing something like this on the computer somehow misses the art of woodworking.

The problem I see is that in a way people who use CNC become defensive, as it appears (at least to me) that you are in this camp. You wrote:

It took me a couple of weeks to design, tweak, apply toolpaths, run trials, then re-design, tweak some more, and finally output and wait 6 hours while this carved out.

The two weeks for design are meaningless, as you would have spent the same amount of time regardless of how you made the piece, the same goes for re design and running trials. Tool paths and "tweaking" would be the equivalent of sharpening carving chisels, knives and rasps. 6 hours waiting for the machine to finish? Do you have any idea how long it would have taken to do this by hand? I am betting 6 hours would not have covered even 1/4 of the door.

There is a quote in the army officer's manual "Do not let them put you in the defensive, do not explain yourself". I think this applies very well to your door. Had you asked the question without stating it was made with a CNC, you would have gotten a million OOhhhs and Aahhhs….

Now to answer your question, is it art? I do not know, I love the carving, do not like the door as a whole. I would have used a more Asian motif, maybe the panel being held by sticks from the rails and stiles, with a soji screen at the back. But that is me, overall I think it is a tasteful piece.


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## PittsburghTim (Jan 16, 2012)

I would agree that creating this piece from scratch definitely qualifies as art. I think that many see the ads for some of the CNC router setups and it causes them to form the impression that it's not woodworking or art. Many of the ads show how you can use preprogrammed designs or simply scan images to create beautiful objects. To me, what you did here, creating the design and drawing it on the computer is the artistic part.

I do not think that not all woodworking is art. Copying a simple plan for a napkin holder from Wood magazine is not art. It is woodworking. It can be satisfying. We all try to get something from woodworking. For some, it's the pride of making something with our own hands. For some it's a way to express one's artistic creativity. We should not look down on anyone who is enjoying the hobby by making simple items by hand. If they are enjoying it, why should anyone put them down. On the other hand, how many times have we all heard people say that they could build fine furniture if they had Norm Abrams workshop? That sells his talents short.

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post. Again, very nice.


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## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

I believe that there is difference between machine made and hand made. 
Something that might be difficult or even impossible to explain but there is a difference. 
You work is beautiful but it looks machine made.
May be it is just too perfect.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

In my opinion, for what that is worth, whether you had the tool in your hand or a machine held the tool it is still your work and well worth the effort.

*Anyone would be proud to own this piece!*


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## Momcanfixit (Sep 19, 2012)

If a person imagines a beautiful piece of music in his or her mind and is able to produce it by using a computer, it's still music. Of course it's different than banging out scales and practicing the piano for 20 years, but music nonetheless.

A quilter knows the time it takes to hand stitch a quilt and is quick to point out a machine quilted product, but there is still value in the beauty created with the fabric.

(I'm on a roll)

From the Oxford dictionary:

Definition of art
noun
1 [mass noun] the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power:
the art of the Renaissance

works produced by human creative skill and imagination:
his collection of modern art
[as modifier]:
an art critic
creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture:
she's good at art

****

So, my opinion is that it is art, in every sense of the word.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Whether done by hand or with a machine, there's nothing tasteless about that door. It's your creation and it's a beautiful piece of work.

To the larger question - most people don't preclude photography, film or architecture (to name a few forms off the top of my head) from art simply because the product was produced by machines. The art is in the vision.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

CNC is part of woodworking. The only thing that annoys me is occasionally someone will post something done on the CNC and claim it as hand carved. It takes talent to program the machines as well. By the way, great work.

Most of us would be glad to have one to at least play with.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

First of all they are gorgeous and look to be well done. However, I think that you could have hand carved them in less time if you had the skill. But instead of acquiring that skill you were sitting in front of a computer for weeks. Now you can mass produce them until they become cliche. Sorry, but I'm too old fashioned to think of computer work as skill. Just my take.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I love this kind of accent stuff. And I have also purchased machine carved and embossed appliques on different projects.

I do not carve, yet I love to support those who do. Long live the "Underdog" *;-)*


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

First of all thank you all for your candid and provocative responses. It provides much food for thought…

I do have to stand on the side as those who state as Monte Pittman did, that the art is in the vision. I'm not saying that the time spent on the computer or with the machine is not a skill. But I cannot agree with those who seem to say that the computer skill is the only skill on display here.

Much of that two weeks in design was in sketching, pondering, looking at various leaves, acorns, layouts… I must have done at least five different layouts. When I mentioned "tweaking" it wasn't all about the toolpathing. It was about how it looked. I drew vectors by hand on a tablet until they looked right. l sculpted those leaves and acorns and twigs, essentially by hand, albeit on screen, until they looked like those things to me. I pondered whether a leaf be shaped this way or that way?

That's where the art is. Will it become cliche? Perhaps. I doubt it. There aren't many who would pay $900 for a door… Because I'm not about to ask any less for it.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

As for being defensive Jorge, I concede the point. However, I will also point out that the post was not merely to defend the use of a CNC in the creative act. I find that the logic of those who object to art as something that can be made with a CNC Router use a similar logic to those who objected to the use of a camera. So, it is something of a provocation as well. I want people to think whether use of a computer or a machine as a tool in art actually diminishes the creative act.


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

We went through exactly the same debate when music synthesizers came out. They were a geeky toy at first. They sounded phony and lifeless. Now they are just one more instrument for a musician to chose from with as much nuance as a traditional instrument. No better and no worse. Now CNC is becoming it's own medium as well.

People probably had the same debate when we moved from flint knapping to metal tools.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I find that the logic of those who object to art as something that can be made with a CNC Router use a similar logic to those who objected to the use of a camera.

Funny you would mention camera, I quit photography around 5 years ago because of the invasive nature of digital work. To me taking 10000 shots, then sitting in front of the computer selecting the right one and then working on it with photoshop was not photography but computer work. Aside from the romanticism of working on the darkroom, to me it was a diminishing knowledge of photography which was converting into photoshop knowledge. Things like composition, "seeing" the light, adjusting the exposure to change the "feel" of the photograph were being lost or exchanged for photoshop "filters".

Thankfully, woodworking does not rely on Kodak to make the materials we work with. I doubt digital output will replace manual work with wood as digital replaced traditional photography. In that vein I have less of an emotional "investment" as I did with photography. I believe that in the woodworking world both can co exist. On the other hand, I can see where in the not so distant future CNC machines will become obsolete against 3D printers.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

"It depends on what the meaning of 'is'... is. 
Is it ART? 
I say yes. 
There is the ART of woodworking, and the ART of CNC.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

There is an entire career path called graphic artist. Much, if not most of the work graphic artists do is on the computer. Everything from animations to bill boards to other works of art. The art part of using a CNC is the design part. The CNC simply replaces the printer or plotter for producing the finished produt. Now what I do with my CNC isn't art because I have not got good enough yet to create my own computer designs like this.


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## WillAdams (Dec 8, 2012)

As a graphic designer with a BFA from an arts college who has just finished his first upgrade on a just-assembled hobby / kit CNC machine and has spent a fair bit of time puzzling over G-code recently, and who did a fair bit of carving when he was much younger….

Space
to
provide
a
warning
of
severe,
possibly
brutal,
but
I
believe,
and
hope
to
be
meant
and
taken
as,
constructive
criticism.

- the difference in proportion between the leaves and acorns in the center circle (smaller) and the ones in the field (larger) isn't working for me and smacks of the easy resizing technology affords
- the perfect mirroring / rotation / duplication of natural organic elements in each quadrant feels forced and un-natural and again, evokes the easy-out of duplicating and using menu options
- the inability of a 3-axis CNC machine to undercut (w/o tool changes) results in perpendicular edges which don't afford the strong shadow lines of undercuts made by hand-carving
- the center portion of the design being well-confined to its boundaries, but the outer portions being allowed to break out feels like an odd inversion of importance, made worse by the center elements (which should be central) being smaller
- the lobes on the inner quatrefoil over-lapping the containing circle results in a heavy, clotted appearance approaching the intersection and a correspondingly weak area at the over-lap-- look at Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction by George Bain for more on this

If it were an art piece intended as a send-up / parody of craftsmanship it would be witty, but as it is, it's the sort of thing William Morris dreaded, unless one views it as the modern version of naïve folk art, though arguably it might be taken as an interesting exemplar of David Pye's contrast between the craftsmanship of risk versus the craftsmanship of certainty.

William


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

It is art in design, but sorry, it's just not the same as carving it by hand to carve it on a computer screen…
However, did you really post this as an add? I mean you can make these for accent pieces for our projects? How come I'm the only one who picked up on that. If it's an add, just say it is, don't start a controversy over nothing.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Jeeezzz William, no one likes a know it all… 

Nice dissection of the work. After you pointed it out I saw how one side is just the mirror image of the other…..Although I still like the panel, for some reason I was disappointed.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Scotsman9, I'll take Angelina Jolie over Jessica Rabbit any time….


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

William…. Wow.

Awesome display of artistic analysis there. The arts and graphics noob is astounded. I see what you've written, and understand it. Well done.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Well the way one can tell a hand carving from a cnc is the flaws. rotarty bits such as in cncs do not make over cuts, gouges and tears. So I leave a couple when I'm carving even though I could fix them and perfect the carving. Just a way one can tell, it's the minor imperfections.


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

My humble opinion, I hope no one takes it as an insult: the "art" here is in the design, I guess…not so much on the work itself. Not sure why there would be such a novel concept or controversy here. It's not about CNC…

When an architect designs a great, original-looking, functional, masterpiece of a building: is he the artist or is it the construction workers, or maybe his studio employees/apprentices who made, or helped make the model, or the structural engineering firm that designed the skeleton and asked the architect to tweak this or that to make it work, the employee sitting on the computer punching the final numbers for it? Let's say that architect designed carved sculptural details, classical or art-nouveau or whatever, and he had to hire sculptors that work the particular material it's made of. Is the architect the artist, or are the sculptors the artists? My humble opinion: The artist who did the design is the architect. The craftsmen and/or artists who did the work are the sculptors. The CNC is the craftsman. The designer is the artist. Which brings us back to the age-old controversy: craftsman vs. artist? Check out an interview with Steve Latta on YouTube on his opinion on the subject.

I need to go to bed….


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

for some laughs, and thought:


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

I can totaly understand your defensive posturing. I turn wood on a converted wood lathe. If a customer wants four of them the same I can set up and run them faster than most chisle turmners, because I use a template. I can also run a hundred peices ready to finish faster than most print to press CNC companys. I have been told I am not turning. It is a beautiful door. I would have to dissagree with those who "purposley" leave a mistake in order for people to know it is done by hand! I would also have to disagree with perfect symetry being a tel tale sign. I would bet that you could fool the greater majority of people by using a "v" shaped cutter to put the detail in the leaves. so that it is more crisp on the edges and not …washed out. At any rate I would be happy to sport that door if even for a feature door in an ensamble. There are hand carvers out there that fetch a lot of money for their work but othjer carvers know them as hacks.
www.konstantinospapadakis.com
This is a friend of mine not sure how he would take to CNC LOL. We did a lot of his case goods and turned items if it wasnt right he didnt fix it he started over!


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Putting on my thick skin suit…

First of all. NO. This is not an add [sic]. Don't attribute motivation where there is none.

I was provoked by this thread in which CNC carving was discussed, denigrated and defended: 
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/9011

My contention is the the CNC router is just a tool doing the bidding of the craftsman/designer/artist.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Now several other points about Art have been discussed which I find very interesting and thought provoking.

Several have alluded to these points about what makes or does not make, Art.

So I'll ask these questions so as to blatantly make a point.

Does the fact that a object have handcrafted mistakes make it art?
Does the fact that an object is handcrafted and not machine made make it art?
Does the fact that an object is not mass produced make it art?
Does the fact that an object has not become mainstream or popular or not cliche make it art?

If being machine made precludes an object being art, then perhaps we should all go back to using our hands, fingernails, and teeth… so as to become purists.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Underdog, it is bland and a waste! 
Please, send me 12 of your "bland" art works for my kitchen!
They look great.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

And now I come to William's comments.

THANK YOU!

I've never had the means to go back to school and study art, and so I've been creating in a sort of vacuum… So yes, you might consider it to be a sort of naive folk art…

I take most of what you said as a constructive criticism, and see now how I could improve this a great deal. I've wished so many times I had either the training to see this sort of thing, or a friend to give just the sort of evaluation you gave. I can't thank you enough for that honest appraisal. A music teacher of my brother's often said that she never gave criticism of a work unless she thought the student worthy of it. I thank you for that respect.

Indeed I went back to Wayne Barton's book and saw that his geometric design did make the interior circle "central" as it should be. I'll be studying this subject further…

I am unfamiliar with any of the men you mentioned…

Could you expound on David Pye's comment? And give reference works of these men I should check out?


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Underdog I hope I did not come across as being negative at all. If it came across that way I deeply apologize as it was not my intent!


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## WoodenFrog (Jun 4, 2010)

ART!!! Wonderful work!!


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

REO,
Not at all. Comments much appreciated.


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## WillAdams (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm glad my comments were taken in the spirit they were intended.

To review your questions:

>Does the fact that a object have handcrafted mistakes make it art?

No, nor does an object having the flawless perfection of a machined surface.

>Does the fact that an object is handcrafted and not machine made make it art?

No.

A laborer works with his hands,
A craftsman works with his hands and his mind,
An artist works with his hands and his mind and his heart.

>Does the fact that an object is not mass produced make it art?

No.

>Does the fact that an object has not become mainstream or popular or not cliche make it art?

No. We already had that discussion w/ Andy Warhol.

It's the craftsman, not the tool. In a recent book review, What Our Lettering Needs, which I wrote for TUGboat, I mentioned a photograph in the book of a piece done by Prof. Hermann Zapf (famous calligrapher and type and book designer) showing an alphabet which he'd designed, a precursor to Zapfino (see http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb24-2/tb77adams.pdf if you're not familiar w/ it) w/ the pen he'd used for it laid across it-- a 49¢ red Bic ballpoint.

The fascination people have w/ tools is reminiscent of the old Masters running around, sniffing each others' canvases trying to figure out how the paint was mixed.

William Morris was a founder of the arts and crafts movement-- look up the Kelmscott edition of the works of Geoffrey Chaucer
George Bain was an art teacher whose work on Celtic design, Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction was a seminal piece of revelation / rediscovery-- contrast it w/ Owen Jones' work The Grammar of Ornament, a wretched bit of Victorian ignorance
David Pye wrote an entire book, The Nature and Art of Workmanship, examining craftsmanship and the consequences of machine production (that's a vast simplification)

Your local library should have all of the above (the Kelmscott in facsimile, originals are incredibly valuable, and I'm still kicking myself for not buying a different Morris work when I had the chance, or at least a book on the Arts & Crafts movement), or be able to get them on inter-library loan. There should also be other works-- pick out a few, read them, think about them, and decide whether or no the author is correct, and/or if their conclusions are applicable to your work.

The George Bain book is available in a very affordable Dover reproduction and is black and white, so doesn't suffer from the poor reproduction books w/ halftones often do and I can't recommend it highly enough if you're interested in such geometric designs. Aidan Meehan has continued this research and his books are quite good as well (but last I checked, didn't have lay-flat bindings which detracts from their utility).

William


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's beautiful and it is art. However, it is not as valuable as a hand carved door. You are now set up to produce these in quantity even though slightly different in size and there is not a thing in the world wrong with this.

You now have a valuable product that you can market but you will enjoy and benefit from economies of scale and as long as you watch your machine and set it up correctly with sharp cutters you can work nearby on something else so long as you keep an eye on it. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

If a professional carver set up to make 12 pairs of these doors for a rich man's library cabinets he would also be paid for what he did but he would get more money for the doors because there is a difference between a hand carving and a machine carving. There are details on a hand carving that you cannot duplicate with a machine. No two of the hand carved doors will be exactly alike if examined in detail. However, this does not detract from their value but adds to their value.

As more and more CNC machines are sold the value of what is produced will drop because it is just the nature of a free market and competition. This is in no way criticising what you do because the door you are showing here is a beautiful product and you have added a lot of value to the door with the carving that you have done and it took a lot of skill to develop this product.

As a matter of fact I am seriously thinking of adding a CNC and a laser engraving machine to my own shop so that I can generate some income to my part time retirement.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## HillbillyShooter (Feb 15, 2012)

For what it's worth, I agree with DS251's observation that, in essence, art is the vision and whatever tools the artist uses to accomplish that vision are only secondary. Remember, tools have evolved with mankind. Never let the lack of a "formal" education intimidate you by those adhering to a pedantic dogma. My observation in life has been that a number of my most successful acquaintances never finished college (and, yes, I did, having received a broad, formal education). So, IMHO, yes, your work is art, the greatness (or lack thereof) being judged by time.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I am in no way an expert in art or CNC programming. But, I think that what you created is beautiful.

It seems to me that your question, "Is this door art, or bland tasteless CNC carving?", sets up a false dichotomy. There is plenty of space between these two extremes.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

it is definitely art. there are many tools out there to produce art, none better than the other as long as the artist produces something with it.

gorgeous doors. nice design. I could care less what tool was used to make it when looking at it.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Does the fact that a object have handcrafted mistakes make it art?
Does the fact that an object is handcrafted and not machine made make it art?
Does the fact that an object is not mass produced make it art?
Does the fact that an object has not become mainstream or popular or not cliche make it art?

To me the answer it is NO to all your questions. Art is like porn, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. 

This was a raging argument in photography before the demise of Kodak, clearly for economic reasons digital "won." After endless discussions and flame wars this is what I gathered form them:

As I said no one except those involved in the field give a damn about how it was made. This is true about photography as well as woodworking. The most important thing is, are YOU happy with your work and what you are doing? Is what you are doing driving you to become better at it?

In other words, is what you are doing pleasing you? Those who make things (art or not) and strive to please others are never successful, you have to do it because YOU enjoy it! So don't fret buddy, who cares if some some think is art and some don't?


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Jorge, Despite the shortcomings of my design, I'm still happy with it, and enjoy this process of creation. Does that mean I won't try to improve it? No. I'll take valid suggestions to heart and make it better.

And to all of you who suggest that CNC routing has it's limitations. Of course it does. It's NOT handcarved and never will be. All artist craftsmen work within limitations. Their tools have limitations. Their skills have limitations. Their medium has limitations. A skew chisel is not a gouge. Plastic is not wood. A carver is not necessarily an artist.

One must always acknowledge the limitations and work within them. That's just a given. But that STILL doesn't disqualify an object from being art.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

A CNC machine is anothert type od chisel, a little bit bigger!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*10 4 underdog*

Your statements are truer than you realize and applicable to other facets of life!


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

A CNC machine is anothert type of chisel, a little bit bigger!

The problem with technology is, people forget it is a "way" or medium to reach, express, build or make an "end", and they make the means the end.

A simple pencil is in some degree "technology". If someone has a hard time at the drafting table, hardly is going to make it with CAD.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Many skills and creative thinking went into this piece ,it is art and a most beautiful door and design.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, and it is also an add… because you said…
"Now you can ask me for some of these doors for accent pieces, and I custom fit them to your project"

Not a lame high school teachers discussion of what art is or is not. Someone peeing on his own blood in public can be considered art, now most of us know it isn't, but see the thing is the term art is subjective, it is a term that can be used to describe many things, and therefore has little meaning at all. One person can say "this is art" and another one say "this is not art" and who is to say which one is correct.

Now if my telling you how to tell the differences offends you, ummm sorry most people wouldn't spot the flaws in hand carved pieces unless they knew what they were looking for, so yeah, leaving the minor imperfections for someone to say yes this is a real hand carved piece makes perfect sense… But then I guess you are way on the defensive and want controversy rather than discussion, because controversy will sell more pieces.


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## Moai (Feb 9, 2009)

look, you have already 12 different reactions here….......trully this is ART!


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

This should be posted under "Sweating for bucks through woodworking".


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

TCCabinetmaker and MrRon,
I think you should take the resulting discussion at face value, and conclude that your presumption of my motivation is incorrect.


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## Millo (Jan 19, 2010)

this is the vid w/ Steve Latta I mentioned. Notice the question around 4:14….he brings up some interesting concepts into the discussion.


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## NedB (Aug 21, 2008)

Digital age woodworking, shows you have skill both at woodworking and computers. Artistic medium enhanced by a modern tool.

Art indeed, and handsome!


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Millo,
I don't see a link for that vid…

This looks like the one:


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Nice Door, Looks Great !!!

Art ? In the eye of the beholder.

Even Most Handcarvers use a machine to prepare thier Work( TS to get to the right size, BS to get the approx shape, Dremmel to get the sanding in just the right place, etc..). I do not know many who go out & fell the tree by Handtools to Carve with.

Not Saying they are not out there…


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Id like to throw two cents in and maybe someone will agree with me….......or im just gonna piss everyone off…..I think its art…..and I think its downright awesome…..Id like cabinet doors in my kitchen like this…...but I dont think its craftsmanship…...I think that title is reserved for those items made by someones physical hands…..taking an idea (which is underdogs) to the design (which underdog created) then using your hands to actually make it…...i think craftsmanship is a package deal….Think of it this way…......if someone with ZERO woodworking experience but who was an AWESOME computer programmer made this piece (which is very possible) would we call him an artist? Probably…...but would we call him a craftsman? probably not IMHO….............Now before you all yell at me remember I said I LIKE THE DOOR and I think it is ART


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

Art is in the eye of the beholder, as we say, so everyone will have their point of view. For me, this is the result of a machine applying a design to a medium without human intervention on the wood carving part itself, and so for me it's not woodworking. You can go to a store and see mass produced furniture that will have carvings made in factories by machines. Those designs have all been created by people on computers or on paper beforehand, so it's not much different (no offense intended). Do we see those as art or craftsmanship? It's wood, but not woodworking as we define it in this kind of forum, where we are usually interested in wood craftsmanship.

Now if you're building a door and the carving is only a small part of it, probably different, but it is what it is, independently from the art discussion. I don't think this kind of work has anything to do with preliminary dimensioning of wood using machines as is required in almost all forms of woodworking. Even when you're using a router to cut a groove, you've measured, marked, taken care of grain direction and blowouts, pushed the wood in yourself, you're not pushing a button and coming back later to see the result after a cup of coffee. Felling the tree is not really relevant. You only have to look at the work of actual hand carvers who post on this site to see how much hand work and skill is involved.

Anyway, my 2 cents and worth that much.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

The problem, as I see it, with that opinion, is that it reveals the lack of knowledge about the "programming" of a CNC router.

It isn't all "programming" and then just pushing a button. The wood, like any other woodworking project, must be selected and prepared. The toolpathing must take into account what material is being used and what direction the grain is going. The correct bits must be selected.

In addition, the "programming" needs as much craftsmanship as any sculptor with a chisel and a mallet. (At least in this instance. If it were just a cut and paste operation, or extrusion tool, instead of actual sculpting, I wouldn't argue this.) When I said I hand sculpted those leaves, that's exactly what I did. I freehanded and massaged many of those forms by hand, even if it was onscreen. I had to take material away, and add material to that relief until it looked just so…. So I would argue that it takes a certain amount of craftsmanship to create something like this. You can't just dismiss it as plastic programming. I won't allow it. :-D


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

It's definitely art. Is it (the carving, only) a demonstration of craftsmanship? No.

bondogaposis:
Sorry, but I'm too old fashioned to think of computer work as skill. Just my take.

Really? You obviously never used CAD and CAM software. It takes a lot of skill to produce something like this.

Edit: I created this with my CNC router. Does this alone make me a great woodworker? No. I couldn't carve it to save my life. BUT, it took me a long time to get the image right, toolpaths correct, and a LOT of samples. I think there is some skill with that.


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

It may need work and programming "crasftmanship". It simply is not "woodworking craftsmanship", and respectfully, it has nothing to do with the skills needed to use a chisel and a mallet.

By the way, I am a developer myself, and I build applications. It takes a lot of skill and expertise to do the things I do, but the skills I use in my workshop have nothing in common with that obviously, aside from attention to detail.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

I use a complicated autoCAD program to design and draw the timber frame homes we make. I understand fully that there is a ton of artistic input done by the draftsman…..I am the one who designs our frames…......but to say that there is a high level of craftsmanship involved is horse baloney…...I create the frames by adding "material" and taking "material" away on my program too…..then I shuffle my butt out to the shop and take what I "created" on my program….and with my own hands and the hands of my employees we bring that design to life and actually make what I drew. I don't mean any disrespect at all but "selecting and preparing" the wood, selecting the right bits…..and toolpathing the grain or however you put it…..is not craftsmanship…..neither is what I do if I draw a frame and have a CNC cut it out for me…...We are giving you the ART part…..it is art…..but to cross over to craftsmanship you gotta put down the keyboard and pick up a chisel…....IMHO


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

So it's not woodworking even if the machine is cutting wood? And you designed the program to be cut in wood?

So basically you're only a woodworker if you pick up a tool and apply it to the wood? Do you start excluding those who exclusively use power tools then?


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

The piece is amazing. I love it. I'd do a whole room with those if I could afford it. 
Art and artists come in many varieties. I've always contended that CNC routers turn out a finished product much like a computer program. It shows the art of design and programming and all the things that go into that, but it does not nor do I ever think it will show a person as a woodworker. The machine does too much. Im speaking in general terms, not just about you.

Now before I get all these angry responses that are sure to follow, let me add that people thought TS, MS, routers, sander, BS and just about anything you plug in to be taking the 'woodworking' out of woodworking. And it did to a point. However having a machine make a straight cut for you and having a machine do the entire piece is very different in my mind.

Imagine if they had a machine that would cut, size, and assemble a blanket chest and all you had to do is program a machine. Anyone could do that if they learned programming. The chest would be great, but the method of making it was totally automated.

I do see CNC as a great way to add decorative pieces to hand made work that otherwise would lead you out of your skill set, not many woodworkers are carvers these days. I feel if I had one, I'd be leaving the woodworking behind though. Just not for me.


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

Underdog, I think you may be mixing things up a bit.

You wouldn't be able to build a piece of furniture or complex joinery with your CNC machine. If the kind of woodworking we are interested in is that, then the point is moot. People who use machines and power tools by hand would be able to do that, with varying degrees of craftsmanship in my opinion…

And furniture that would come out of factories entirely built by machines…noone here would say that it is craftsmanship, or even woodworking actually, regardless of how much time was spent in the design of those machines.

If we limit it to carving, then the answer is yes, you are only a wood carver if you actually take your chisels to the wood (I'm not one myself, and I wish I was, and yet would not be interested in doing it with a machine). In your case, your CNC machine is the carver, not you, even if you've spent time figuring out the programming and making the designs. Designer, yes, not a wood carver.

But you probably got more than you wanted in all these answers. Your original question was "is it art". I don't think that matters really. If someone likes it and wants to have it on their door or wall, it is art to them. It does look nice.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Well underdog there is the crux of the matter. looking at a piece of wood there are several types of people Those who think anyone can do it. those who think anyone with the right equipment can do it. Those who understand that learning to operate the right tool or equipment may take some skill. Are one teir. The next tier begin to appreciate the skill involved in a small way. They have tried with the wrong equipment and failed so they realize that not anyone can do it. Some have spent lots of money on tools and equipment to do it and found they cant even figure out how to run the equipment so they realize that there is some skill involved so they are offended. Others can get results but they are not proficient at it so when it comes easy to someone else they are offended. Some have machine envy either because they cant afford the equipment or because they cant run the equipment if they could afford it and they know it. You have tried several times to offer some understanding of the skill that it does take, and to explain that it is not the mere push of a button to create this. I have used several drafting programs from freeware to Autocad, Solid works and Catia. I consider myself fairly adept at it but I marvel at the real masters. I learned CNC back in the '80's when coordinates had to be entered in all three axis and many machines were considered 2 1/2 axis machines. Todays machines are commonly 3,4,and 5 axis machines, some can be more than that. conversational programing keeps it with in the possibility of human understanding. I think that some will never understand the level of engagement that it takes to move an idea to a medium even with a CNC based piece of equipment. I just wanted to commend you on your accomplishment again. Don't sweat the naysayers they will die in, or for their rut. Its just two ends short of a grave anyway.


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

REO, slice it anyway you want, no matter how much skill it takes to design and setup a CNC machine, or level of engagement, it's simply not woodworking craftsmanship and never will be. Whichever one you are more interested in, you are talking about different lines of work. I see the same things in my day job.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

I have to apologize here…........while I didnt read ALL the posts before my original one…..Im pretty sure Im the one who started the craftsmanship debate. Underdog asked if it is ART…....yes Underdog….it IS art…...but to answer your question…..........................................."* So basically you're only a woodworker if you pick up a tool and apply it to the wood? Do you start excluding those who exclusively use power tools then?*..........YES….you are only a woodworker if you are physically making something out of wood with your own two hands and NO I would not exclude those who use power tools…..not until a circular saw takes directions and cuts the wood while the carpenter is in the other room. But again….nice doors I think they are awesome….............To give you an idea of where I'm coming from I attached a pic of the last house i did for someone a few weeks ago….....I think I attached the picture right….if I did…..thats a house I designed and hand cut…..there are no nails or metal fasteners holding any of it together…..all joinery and oak pegs. I dont want to come across as a tool, but the word "craftsman" carrys a lot of meaning to me. but again…....awesome doors


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow Bob, what can I say, that is awesome work..


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks Jorge….......


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I was thinking of going with hammer beams in my design, but men, those suspended King posts look absolutely great…..


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

IT IS ART…. computer art.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Jorge…...that arched truss design is very popular and almost as strong as a straight collar tie design…..the hammer beam is one of my favorites but you have to get the geometry/proportions right or over time it will spread apart…..I know a guy who can help  lol


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## LeChuck (Jan 6, 2010)

Bob, if I could build a structure like that, I would certainly be able to call myself a craftsman.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I think it ultimately boils down to craftsmanship. The CNC machines present us with a new dimension is all. We either guide tools with our body and minds, or now, just our minds. The CNC has taken his body out of the equation to a large degree with regard to woodworking. However craftsmanship is referring to things done by hand and these days especially made by hand. 
I don't mean to demean the skill it took to do this. I think it's amazing. whether its woodworking in the classical sense or not is a personal opinion though. Perhaps another discipline is more appropriate.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

There are elements of both art and science involved with this very nice door carving. I'm envious of the tools at your disposal, Underdog. However, I'm in WillAdams' and Jorge's camp.

I don't think it's an accomplishment to the same degree of something handcrafted…and for me, that seems to be where the true artist can see this work and then come away somewhat underwhelmed. Many people have graphic arts skills…and how that is "outputted" depends on the medium…which is, in this case, wood. I see this as a product of graphical arts, with a technical skillset that has to be considered impressive, albeit not altogether totally artistic. There are great artists in the graphical arts community, but I don't think people can make that determination with one work. In other words, CREATING ART and BEING AN ARTIST are two distinctively different things. The latter can only be determined with exposure and time.

In much the same way, I've had many of the same discussions with people in the Astrophotography community. I stop short of calling myself an artist, even though many artistic decisions and processes go into my work.

Ultimately, we may be artists, but I think that's determined by those who see our work. In the case of CNC carving, I see art, but not in the classic sense from the hands of a true artist. I think the word we might be looking for is "artisan," a term which probably arose from guys like us sitting around debating the same kinds of things.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

BTW, I mention the above because I think when people post such questions they aren't really seeking validation for their work, but rather validation of themselves as an artist. You created some really cool art with this CNC carving, but I don't know how much of an artist you really are.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks LeChuck


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Lechuck, ANY particular joint, inlay or other operation you want to expand on that CAN NOT be done on a CNC machine. For a fact I can assure you that copys includeing overcuts undercuts, multilayer etc can be duplicated on a CNC provided one wants to change the cutters and put the time into it. one craftsman holds a tool one way, the next another. craftsmanship is not represented by the tools or by the person but by the product. I can give good expensive tools to a five year pold and ask tham to build a bench. what I get back most likely wont be a bench and the best use of the tools either. I can give a craftsman junk tools and ask for a bench and I will get a quality peice of furniture. Some people are naturals some will always be wannabes. if you work with wood you are a "wood worker" a poor one or a great one but still a woodworker. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder so is art. what some are calling art today I call repulsive and offensive trash. Whats worse is that it meant to be. art by definition is suposed to be aestheticaly pleasing whitch this panel is! An artist by definition is one who practices a fine skill. I would have to say that it took a fine skill to make that machine do this! A craftsman is one who practices a particular trade. I think often the emphasis is placed on manual dexterity like a jewler, but there are bricklayers and paperhangers and wall painters that perform every day that are craftsmen(people) too. I kind of have the same thing bugging me with turning. I found a better way. Others dont have it, so they say I am not a turner. go back to spring poles and treadle lathes then. Crafts and Arts are going to move on either way. The consumer will ultimately decide what is acceptable. For every door you sell ring a bell to remind you that your product was chosen over all the alternatives out there.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

I was going to ask… if a man who designs in CAD, (although I would opine that ArtCAM, Rhino, or VcarvePro as are not strictly drafting programs as I would AutoCAD, AlphaCAM. or MasterCAM), outputs to CAM, selects and prepares the wood, runs the router, then sands, finishes, and assembles the final product, is NOT a woodworker, then…

....what?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I think that if some one masters CNC and can make a program to replace hands

or if hands can beat CNC

its a race where the thin red line is hard to argue

I can argue either side and dont see a winner.

CNC is much like a carving knife

It is only as good as the mind that controls it


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

to see both craftsman and the tangled BS and beauty that goes with CNC, where trades, engineers, and architects combine and ying and yang are out of sync ?

its almost comical where relief is rare and humour ever rarer but there are those who "get it"

there will always be the "ketchup" line


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Part of the art of woodworking is making a mistake and overcoming it. The thought that I have about a hand carved piece is how amazing people are to do so much awesome, tedious work without any perceived screw-ups.

Thats not an issue when programming a CNC…and I believe takes a big part of the amazement away from the work. Great art has to be produced through some type of risk, IMO. The reward becomes greater.

I know this because I've crumbled up a lot of paper and made a bunch of firewood in my day.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Great art has to be produced through some type of risk, IMO.

Very well put cosmic, I really like this sentence.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

how do we measure reward ?

aside from our personal lives

purely through a profit margin ?

risk is an inherent part of life


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

i might add

its well worth it


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## NatalieM (Jan 6, 2013)

Thats not an issue when programming a CNC

Cosmic, my husband programs CNC machines for metal working and let me tell you. Battling mistakes making adjustments and finally producing something amazing are very much a part of the cnc process and for a woodworker produces a great deal of firewood indeed.

Jorge, Let me chime in by saying, those doors, your design there, that is art. However, I find that many cnc owners seem to produce a lot of very cheesy stuff. It's as though they buy the machine hoping it will make up for the fact that they have no imagination, or sense of design. The art is in the design. An architect never builds the building he designs, but the finished product is his glory.

Great work Underdog! It's beautiful.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Art is always in the eyes of the beholder. Only posterity has the right to point out our mistakes*. -Len Wein

How many believe that all of Thomas Kinkade's work came from his own hands? Guess again! And he is just one example of "students" creating art in the form and direction of the master. Is it any less art?


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Is it any less art?

In the case of Kinkade it was never art, even when he painted them, cliched boring stuff, he had good technique though….


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Jorge G.* in this case I have to agree with you as I never liked his "paintings of light." 
The light properties are in fact a version of old world Christmas ornaments.

In Missoula Montana there are some very physically challenged students, most of which cannot hold a pencil let alone a painting tool, who are creating real works of art. They use computers with whatever input tools they can manage (one holds a stylus in her mouth) and printed on a large format plotter for their shows. These shows are open to the public, very well attended, and gaining in popularity. My brother has a couple of pieces prominently displayed in his home.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Underdog…..everything is getting mixed up here. What you made is pretty unanimously (in this forum) considered art. Your design is great, the piece is great, your skill with the computer design is great. I think what the argument turned to is if this piece is a display of woodworking craftsmanship, IMO and in the opinions more than a few guys here it is not. Im not belittleing the skill it took to design this, but picking a piece of wood out, loading tools up and letting a cnc cut the wood is not skilled woodworking…...technically the piece could have been plastic, metal, styrofoam….whatever…...if you have a strong design background you really dont even need to know too much about wood…...let alone how to carve it or use hand tools. In response to your question, *I was going to ask… if a man who designs in CAD, (although I would opine that ArtCAM, Rhino, or VcarvePro as are not strictly drafting programs as I would AutoCAD, AlphaCAM. or MasterCAM), outputs to CAM, selects and prepares the wood, runs the router, then sands, finishes, and assembles the final product, is NOT a woodworker, then…

....what?* If I buy a piece of unfnished furniture from IKEA, put it together, sand it and stain it…...am I a woodworker? Now…...before anyone gets all fired up…..I know there is more to what underdog does than what I just used as an example as far as the designing of the piece goes…...BUT assembling something a machine cut, sanding it and staining it does not make one a craftsman…......there is like arguing religion…..bith sides will argue until rapture about whos right. Ill end again with…Its a great piece and I like it


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

This…....I meant "this is lke arguing religion" sorry


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

*Wow* what a fun and intellectual thread…. only wish I had the time to get through the whole thing. I may have to print it out to read the whole thing… So I may be a little off, or repetitive, or saying what some of the suggested authors are saying.

*2 cents*: In art school I was often put off by the idea that an object is art if the artist considers it such. The *Major* distinction between art and craft, is that art REQUIRES an audience. (look at the words them self. A craftsman, the suffix describes an expert in, or person employed at craft, an Artist: someone who makes, not expert, or One who follows a particular ideology, doctrine, belief system or theory…. or to make the distinction further, belongs or operates in the context of a group defined activity.) In that context it cannot be self defined. Craft becomes art the moment it acquires a critic, or critique, either by intention, as an artist, or accident, as outside, or "folk" art. In that regard quality can be defined by mass communicative markers. By quantity of audience, or by price/value in the market place.

So by my definition these CNC doors are most definitely art. And +1 on the OLD SCHOOL formal critique (both sides) Takes me back to the art school days.


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## TimberFramerBob (Feb 18, 2013)

Joey…..Who is John Galt? nice


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

This is a great string.

I am an artist. Art in my opinion, is about communication. It is a archetype for expressing the human experience.. that same as war or love is about human experience. Art communicates either the process or methodology, the spirit of labor, the beauty of product, the empathic connection or the concept translated from the artists mind and given to the targeted audience. It communicates for the one who made it.

Your question "is this art?"I personally know what you are really asking is.. "what does this thing I have made say about me?" That, my friend, makes you an artist if at least for this moment. It is the exploration of yourself within your chosen material and methodology to express something you feel. You question it and that is self expression.

So, IMO the real question this.. "what do these doors mean to you?"
Is it a means to money? Or a marveling at a faster means to make your imaginings real? Did the making of the door comes from your soul or did it change you in some way? .... or is it the fear to think something you have worked so hard on actually worth the praise you feel?.... And do those doors perfectly reflect what you feel? Then it is Art.

It's Art when it communicates, represents, and means something.
Or look in side and admit these doors are only a craft of a product without meaning… 
Enjoy it, but admit it if it's true.. it really doesn't mean anything beyond appreciation.. then it is Craft… and craft is what we all do and love.

Let's face it.. the industrial revolution splintered the artisan into a hierarchy….craft, design, and art… each have a different use in the market and focus for the artisan. The three can work in union or excel separately.

Craft is about makes things of quality, Design makes things for purpose, But… Art is for the purpose of communication… be that communication a memorial bust of a president, a guy peeing on a canvas in a public park, or architecturally opulent carved doors. Art communicates, represents, and means something.

It is in this way, anyone can make a piece of art, but for the same reasons not everyone can be an artist… the artist is most specific to expressing communication… and not all artists can produce fine craft. The career of every artist depends on "What is art…" and is not taken lightly by the individual nor the culture of man.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

*EPJ* I like what you have to say, but would like to say more about this "Let's face it.. the industrial revolution splintered the artisan into a hierarchy….craft, design, and art…" IMO craft design and art have all been separate long before the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution was caused by innovations in the CRAFT of manufacturing. The hierarchy exists because Art, with its "purpose as a form of communication", is intrinsically human. To the extent each connects to the soul of human communication, or the shared human experience, (Jung might describe this as soul) there sits its place in the hierarchy. There is the art of craft, but craft is not always art. There is the art of design, but design is not always art. There is the craft of manufacturing, but manufactured things, are not always craft work, and so on. Music is artful, because its purpose is close to art, but art is not always musical (Music sits above art because there are components of music that are universally understood, more intrinsically even than language, or art) Incidentally *TimberBob* I put religion and art on the same rung, and it is evidenced by how much art has used religion, and religion has used art, for each owns purpose. I would even argue that the two are married, and may even be feminine and masculine (or yin and yang if you are of the PC persuasion) versions of the same "language" (I will leave it up to the chorus to decide which is which. Most importantly to me is how *EPJ* sites the common experience, using language as your vehicle, in your definition of art. A craftsman can be humanly fulfilled, having created something in a vacuum, that only the craftsman knows about, however and artist will not feel the same if their creations are never seen. It is important that some objects cross this boundary on there own, and by there own ability to communicate in a human way become art, regardless of the intentions of their creator.

That said, *EPJ* , I wonder why, after you fairly nicely point out art is form of communication, you chose it to be Reflexive. As in "what does this thing I have made say about me?" and not Suggestive as in "it means nothing to me, but I want it to say this!" Or expressive "as in hear this about me" Or poetic "speech for the sake of speech" or "it exists because I want it to speak to you, but I don't speak your language. or other ideas. etc.??


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*This thread is getting deep!*

In my opinion, the following, is one of the most important points:

"A craftsman can be humanly fulfilled, having created something in a vacuum, that only the craftsman knows about, however and artist will not feel the same if their creations are never seen. It is important that some objects cross this boundary on there own, and by there own ability to communicate in a human way become art, regardless of the intentions of their creator." -- joeyinsouthaustin


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Geez folk! Why is the stench of urine so strong? Ya'll are out of control already, pissin' all over each other and such. Why do you diss the very nature of woodworkers who produce a product for sale? You aren't good enough 'cause yew din't make it like I did… It ain't yose' 'cause you used som-body else's talent on part of it… yada, yada, yada….

Are you folks even listening to yourself? How could any of you expect to sell ANYTHING if you treat others products as you do? Lighten up already…

As for me, I will support someone else's carving, be it machine or otherwise, if I can conceptualize how it can best fit into what I want in a final product. That is if it doesn't stink like urine…


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## JR_Dog (Jan 18, 2012)

Interesting post; I'll admit the thought has crossed my mind when I see random adds for CNC's, like hmm how hard is it to let a machine carve designs for you, but what I like about this post is I'm always game for learning how to respect things I know nothing about. Thanks for detailing everything that you still have do to get to a beautiful finished product like your doors and accent pieces; they are truly works of art.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Cosmic Sniper says: 
"Thats not an issue when programming a CNC…and I believe takes a big part of the amazement away from the work. Great art has to be produced through some type of risk, IMO. The reward becomes greater."

I couldn't agree more. Ever run the risk of crashing a $75 router bit into the bed of a $120,000 router, and wrecking an $18,000 spindle?

There's your risk. ;-)


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Hey Mike,

Don't sweat it. It's been a great thread. I appreciate everyone's thoughtful posts, even, and maybe especially even, those who disagree with me.

I posted this to challenge those who may not have considered that good work , and maybe even art, can be created on a CNC router. I posted this to be provoke thought, and it did.

Thanks to all of you for considering this subject and posting such challenging and thoughtful ideas. I will be ruminating over these things for some time to come.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ever run the risk of crashing a $75 router bit into the bed of a $120,000 router, and wrecking an $18,000 spindle?

I am thinking Cosmic meant an emotional risk, not a financial one.


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

It gets pretty emotional when you crash one… :-D


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

LOL…..


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

The emotional reward is just as great whether it is done by chisel, a hand held router, a Dremel, chain saw, CNC, LASER, or whatever other tool is used because you know what you put in to get the results you envisioned and when those results don't meet you expectations the disappointment is just as great.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)




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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Underdog:
"It gets pretty emotional when you crash one"

Yes it does….

But sometimes it gets emotional before you've even made the first cut….my heart was racing the first time the operator fired this baby up @ 17 000 rpm's


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## hobby1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Hi,

I realized this is an old thread, but maybe this could be helpful too.

The inner panel has artistic qualities, the door frame around it shows woodworking craftsmanship qualities, (proper fittieng joints, grain direction, and assembly, ect..) as a whole….
it is a very nice woodworking project, not an art piece, but a very well woodworking endeavor, where you incorporated an artistic piece into your door frame, and the result is a good woodworking craftsmanship project.

The artisitic quality of this woodworking project, is your design of the inner workpiece, however the actual results of the inner workpiece, was not from your craftsmanship woodworking talents,

At the same rate someone who applied handson carving of the innerpiece, would then be able to elevate the signature of the workpiece as a whole to a work of art, mainly because of the carving standing out as the woodworking talent more than just the door frame construction, the whole workpiece would be the display of the wood carvers work, rather than just a door.

It really makes sense if you really think about it.

I mean this only as a constructive criticism, and it is just my honest opinion, please note the project as a whole shows excellent woodworking crafsmanship.


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