# Classic debate: lacquer vs. polyurethane



## thedudeabides (Oct 20, 2009)

I remember my old woodshop teacher saying "Ninety percent of amateurs use poly, and 90% of pros use lacquer." I personally prefer lacquer myself, even though it is a bit temperamental to work with, but this seems like a timeless debate. Are the pros still gravitating to lacquer, or is the field leveling?


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## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

I am using lacquer for my interior products now, I can get 3 coats on in a day, and it is self healing, The poly that I was using I was only able to get a coat on once a day.


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## Beginningwoodworker (May 5, 2008)

I use poly, because I have never try lacquer.


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

Chalk another one up for lacquer, as Pete_Jud said the drying time is great and I like spraying more than brushing… way faster.


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## KB1 (Oct 7, 2009)

I live in Florida, the humidity state. Lacquer fogging can be a problem here. Then there is the VOC / flammability problem. Catalyzed finishes stink to high heaven also. I use almost exclusively a product called Crystalac, available thru Mc Feeleys.com. It's waterbased, low voc, recoat in 1 hr, sands easily without loading your paper, and is more resistant to chemicals than lacquer. Try it you'll like it.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I used to be a "poly guy" but in the last few months I have been using lacquer more. It dries much faster and I can get 3 coats on in a day. However, it stinks and my workshop is in the basement. I prefer to use lacquer when it is warm enough (and dry enough) to take the piece outside to do the finishing.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

Pro's use lacquer because it's faster, and time is money. Also, pro's are more likely to have a spray both, which is almost mandatory to spray lacquer.

There are also catalized lacquers available that ar just as durable as poly, without the yellowing.


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## bigike (May 25, 2009)

i think poly is slower to build and you don't get the same clear shine as lacquer i have some that you have to brush on (lacquer) but have yet to try it i've been going with the arm-a-seal gloss this stuuf works fast building and the shine is clear like glass.


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## thedudeabides (Oct 20, 2009)

"Pro's use lacquer because it's faster, and time is money. Also, pro's are more likely to have a spray booth, which is almost mandatory to spray lacquer."

I guess that's been at the heart of the debate for me, if they're just using it to save time. I've got a booth and tend to loath putting anything on by brush, but poly can be sprayed just as easily.

Are pros really just using it for time reasons, or are they seeing something in the final product that looks superior to a poly finish?


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I use poly, but if I am in a hurry, I use Minwax Polycrylic. It's water based so clean up is easy, it dries just like poly, but in only takes about 2 hours to dry and recoat. It is also milky white when applying so you can see where you have painted it on. I really like it and it seems very hard and looks great. The only thing negative about it is its expensive and it cant be used on floors.


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## davidpettinger (Aug 21, 2009)

Lacquer, enough said. Lacquer likes to fog during temperature changes, so don't spray around sunset or sunrise. Spray at high sun. Ventilation eliminates VOC. Once she hardenes, minimum VOC. Humidity causes fogging during drop in temp. changes. Used for years, poly is too slow, at least for me.


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## Kailua_Woodman (Mar 29, 2010)

In my experience there's just too much that can go wrong with poly, and the extended drying time only compounds the opportunity for error.

Lacquer is much easier to work with, and (for the record) I actually do most of my spraying outside - in the shade, of course.

I still think that every good woodworker should take the time to learn how to work with BOTH. It really helps to understand the different properties of these materials in terms of preparation, application, and bonding, and that knowledge can apply to other similar materials.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I think Kailua has got it right. There is a place for both poly and lacquer. Furthermore, there is also a place for hand rubbed, apply with a brush and spray on. It just takes a while to figure out what works best in each situation. I'm still trying to figure that out. Rub on poly (that I apply with a foam brush) is my default option but I am routinely experimenting with other approaches.


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

I have used lacquer almost exclusively for about 40 years. I realize I only look about 30, LOL, but I started young. I am a professional and it* is *about time. I have always had a stand alone shop, but I would not spray lacquer if I had a shop in my garage. My gas heater and water heater are in my garage so I have pilot lights going. Laquer (solvent based) is highly flammable and will explode. I knew a painter years ago that died in one of those explosions. You can get high easily without proper ventilation, ( I am saying this in a very negative way--You do not want to do this!!!!!!!!!!!) and according to anyone who knows me, brain damage as well.

Charles Neil has a thread going now about water based lacquer, which could change all that. I am planning to give it a try. Sounds like Poly is a good choice for hobbiests where time is not so much of an issue. As already stated, you can spray just about any finish.

These theads are great for learning about anything woodworking related. You get a lot of different perspectives which really make your own choices a lot easier. I didn't have this when I was new at the craft, but I did have several great mentors. The problem was, they all used what I use now which makes it a little harder for me to open up to all the fantastic new products coming out these days. Be open to making changes--when it's beneficial to do so.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

If you care more about end result than time spent finishing, poly is a better option. Poly is a superior finish in almost every way (abrasion, water, chemicals, UV, VOC). The looks? ... Well, its very subjective. I started to use poly a while ago and will never go back to that flammable POISON (lacquer). Lately I was using water based poly, which is even better: you can do three coats in one day.
P.S. Never had problems with brush marks using poly. But again I'm not doing it for living, so I take my time.


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## itsmic (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi All
I can't compliment enough the great comments on this site, they cover all the aspects of a question, I recently bought some Min-wax brush on lacquer, and really did not know what I was getting into, tried to use it with some disastrous results, streaks, brush marks, and some globing, don't get me wrong, nothing against the product, I take full blame for my poor results. I should have turned to Lumber jocks before my purchase, it would have saved me some trouble, and time. I make mostly small decorative boxes, and for my purposes the poly gives a more controllable finish ( I just do a box or two at a time, so setting up for spraying is not practical), I keep the project perfectly level and do just one side at a time, to get a mirror finish after the third coat, yes, time consuming, and the yellow tint of the poly, similar to the tint of natural stain, it brings out the best in some woods. Poly or Lacquer, I say as stated by some, it is dependent on the project, personal requirements, taste, and a number of other factors. Make the research on what your particular needs and tastes are, and then make the choice for each project. Keep working and sharing It's Mic Woodworker


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Personally I prefer poly mainly for it's durability and the fact that it can withstand sanding and polishing with rubbing compound real well to give a wonderful smooth surface. I brush it on as I feel I have more control that way. I have been using oil based, but I plan to try using water based poly because it's faster and easier to clean up as already mentioned. The poly I use also has UV protection so it can withstand a lot of sunlight.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

I have used both and use poly more so than lacquer. A lot depends on the project and what it will be used for. I guess what it comes down to is what will be the durability issue needed. If I am refinishing a piece I would want it to be lacquer over poly, because poly is a hard finish.


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## Taigert (Nov 20, 2007)

One of the things about being a "Pro" is the amount of exposure to toxic VOC's. I have now put my health first and foremost when deciding what to work with. I only wish I thought more about it when I was younger before doing the damage to my lungs.

I spray 90% of the time and have been getting great results with the water based products such as Polycrylic. Its fast and looks great, and the customers are happy.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

And 90% of the pro's use particle board…......

Just because the pro's use it does not mean its the best choice for your heirloom, or some other project. As has been repeatedly said, time and materials are money. Lacquer is fast, which has much to do with why it's so common in professional construction projects. I use it on some projects solely for that reason.

I have a credenza I picked up to avoid sitting on the floor to type this message. It looks beautiful (or did), but a fingernail will remove the lacquer finish. Keep in mind, "pro's" built this (of course, other pro's built things we envy too and finished them with other types of lacquer or some other finish). The same finish on a picture frame would be fine, since it wouldn't be subject to any real degree of wear.

Poly can be a nightmare for professionals. It adds significant time to jobs, such as for sanding between coats when [mandatory] re-coat schedules are missed, waiting for the finish to cure, and dealing with messy spray operations.

In the end, I like high quality finishes, even if they are more work. That may or may not include lacquer, depending on the type of lacquer and the project.


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## MyFathersSon (Apr 30, 2009)

Just a practical observation in support of many of the comments made -
I support my woodworking habit doing tech support for a librarary.
They recently bought a new desk/counter for the reference area.
Bought from an office furniture vendor-so assumably built by "pro's" 
GORGEOUS piece of furnture-cherry - I assume a mix of solid and veneer.
Not sure what the finish is- It looks GREAT-BUT 
It scratches if you stare at it hard.
The librarians are paranoid to sit anything on it. 
There are vinyl pads and lace doilies (yes you read right) under everything.
After having spent well over a thousand dollars for this unit (it's BIG) they are about to spend several hundred more getting custom glass tops made.
I'm not sure which confuses me more-why someone would put such an easily scratched surface on something they know is subject to heavy use--- 
OR-why people who know something is going to be used heavily would buy something so easily damaged.
MORAL--
Choose the right finish based on the needs of the project.
SECONDARY MORAL-
Purchase the right product for your needs


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## Stevinmarin (Dec 24, 2009)

I agree completely. There are so many different finish options available because they each have their purpose. I have switched most of my finishing from poly to lacquer because it is just a lot easier to work with and I get impatient with poly. Don't get me wrong, I've obtained beautiful finishes with poly, but it can literally take a week or two.

I'm also a big fan of applying simple oil finishes…but on picture frames or things that won't be abused by drink spills or scratches.


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## Sean (Jul 2, 2008)

I haven't used lacquer yet! I'd like to…I started out using Poly but I really got tired of the plastic feel it gives…I really like the texture of the wood. Lately most of the indoor projects I made I finished in Danish oil or tung oil.
I will try out lacquer soon.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Since I don't do woodworking for a living, time is not that big of a factor for me. I gravitate toward wipe-on poly … I just like the end result.

I have used Minwax Polycrylic on the last couple of projects, and the advantages pointed out by SnowyRiver are sure worth considering.

My shop is in the attached garage, and the last time I used lacquer inside, SWMBO had a fit about the smell even though I had the ventilation system (18' garage door) open while I was applying it.


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## Wahine_Woodworker (Feb 8, 2011)

As for brushing on… I started rolling it on with a paint roller and the job gets done much faster and without brushmarks


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

You all should check out Targetcoatings.com. They make a water based lacquer that is really good. I just finish spraying the first gallon and it does really good. No smell at all, recoat in 30 minutes, sand after 60 minutes. Full burn in with every coat. Great service

Les


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Les-Thanks for the tip on Target Coatings!

Any idea what the pot life on it is?

-Gerry


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

Gerry,
I would have to check for sure, but I believe it is a year. I use the EM 6000 with a 5% water reduction.

Les


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

I forgot to tell they have a great WB shellac as well.

Les


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Les-I called them, and you are correct … pot life is one year.

My order will be here just about the time I am ready to fire up the Earlex!

-Gerry


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

Thats great, I think you will enjoy working with it. Let me know what you think. It really rubs out nice.

Les


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I guess that I'm just too much a purist. I use wiping varnish, shellac, lacquer, but the poly is only for table tops and such. Finishing is such an art in itself. I just don't like the polycrapithane.
Bill


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## mrtoasty (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess it to each his own, I don't like varnish because it is such a mess to spray. That sticky stuff gets on everything. The new water base varnishes are ok, but just take to long to dry.

Poly has its place in the system. It is a great starter finish for people new to wood working.


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## skreck (Jul 27, 2010)

Saw a YouTube by Askwoodman and he swears by Waterlox. Anybody else ever work with it


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## Wahine_Woodworker (Feb 8, 2011)

We recently switched over to finishing our guitars with the WB Target Coatings and haven't looked back. It really brings out the beauty in to wood and It buffs out so much easier and doesnt seem to clog the sandpaper nearly as much. We are spraying seven coats, sanding up to 800 between coats 4 and 5 then wet sanding and then buffing with a polishing compound to achieve a beautiful mirror finish, and it is literally half the work. and it is nearly the same price as the NC lacquer


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## FreeThinkerTX (Jan 13, 2012)

Forgive me for interloping, but I'm just a homeowner with a question: Is lacquer enough on my stained wood cabinets in the bathroom, or should I coat the "finger-touchable" surfaces with polyurethane? My dad tells me that the lacquer alone won't stop fingerprints / finger wear from showing in a few years. My painter tells me lacquer is enough.

Help?

Michele in Dallas

P.S. I currently do not have any pulls on the cabinets. I assume those will help. But do I need them if I add a couple coats of poly?


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## BentheViking (May 19, 2011)

I've been wondering the same thing.

For awhile I was always intimidated by laquer thinking I needed to spray it on, but on my last big project (The Rocking Alligator) I was under a major time crunch and turned to the LJ forum for some advice. I was suggested to do the Deft brush on laquer. I am forever changed. Love how quick it dried and that you didn't need to sand between coats.

Someday I may experiment with other types of finish (shellac, BLO, wax) I just hate the finishing aspect of woodworking and would much rather spend my time cutting and milling. Again also am a bit intimidated by foreign processes.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Actually it's about 50/50 between lacquer and conversion varnish in larger shops. I prefer lacquer as it's far more forgiving, less prep work, and with the nitrocelulose lacquers it's far more durable than what you normally get out of the vinyl. You can get three coats on in a day, but if you get runs in your final coat you can still sand out and get 2 more coats on in a day, in worst case scenarios (some things are just a nightmare to spray).

(Edited in)
If your lacquer is "blushing" then you need to buy an additive called lacquer retarder, it will slow the drying process and allow the humidity to escape, being in Alabama and on the coast I have alot of the same conditions as you.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

It's a component is pretty much all. I have to keep telling my suppliers I can't stand pre-cat, because they keep trying to get me to buy it lol. I've had nightmares with pre-catalyzed lacquer, and prefer to mix it myself basically.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't have a dedicated space for finishing, so for the most part, I use lacquer just to get the job finished fast and free up the workshop again. I have used waterborne and solvent borne lacquers, I find the acid catalysed lacquers are more forgiving and give a better finish. They also give a better depth of colour than the waterborne finishes. 
I also spray w/b acrylic varnish on occasion if I want to achieve a 'soaped' effect finish.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I second and third and fourth the statement "Pros use lacquer because its cost effective".

It's quick, it can go on perfect, dries fast. With an automotive positive pressure booth, you can fill the booth, spray, crank up the heat and push out several big projects in one day

That said, lacquers are not developed equally so you can pay 50 bucks for 5 gallons or 300 bucks for 5 gallons. You can buy pre-cat lacquer or post cat lacquer, water based, nitro cellulose based……..the options are almost limitless. There are lacquers out there that are totally impervious to water, almost impossible to scratch, you can even spill some acids on them……..and flawless. They make a totally "dry" look lacquer right up to super high gloss, they can be tinted and are available in any combination and permutation of colour. Fast, efficient and durable.

On the downside and there are many reasons. Combustable, explosive. Long term exposure to fumes cause serious and permanent neurological disorders, toxic waste bi-products, temperature and humidity sensitive, requires a huge investment into air delivery, dehumidification systems, fire suppression systems, air filtration and explosion proof lighting systems, liquid containment storage and application equipment to name a few.

nuff said


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## FreeThinkerTX (Jan 13, 2012)

So, as an average homeowner whose new bathroom cabinets were just sprayed with tinted lacquer, am I protected fairly well from water and fingerprint stains? Or should I apply a coat of polyurethane on top of the tinted lacquer?

I get that lacquer is preferred by pros because of cost and a quicker drying time, but which one is better for long-term wear and protection? In other words, which one would you professionals use in your own bathroom-a bathroom shared with a clumsy spouse and small children-to best protect the wood and its finish?

Thanks,
Michele


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## Painter_joe (Feb 2, 2012)

Conversion varnish is great especially for cabinets but is a pain to work with if you don't use on a regular basis. What I have done in the past on my son's crib actually, was purchased a precat Laquer and added an additional hardener. I couldn't get a scratch from normal wear & tear tests.. water based poly in a bathroom may get white spots from humidity also…


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

ya


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## EdwardP (Jul 13, 2011)

Has anyone tried heating the EM6000 water based lacquer to about 90 degrees instead of thinning? I'm getting ready to spray 33 new raised panel doors and would like not to screw up! Is it durable enough for cabinet doors? Can the water based lacquer be sprayed with a cheapo Harbor Freight 6CFM spray gun?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Ed-- I have used EM6000 on tables and cabinets and have seen no problems. I have an Earlex HV5000, and didn't need to thin the EM6000 at all … used it straight out of the can.

-Gerry


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## skipj (Mar 6, 2012)

I use em6000 a lot, just sprayed a cabinet the day before. Iuse a cheap hvlp spray gun with a 1.4 tip.
I also do not thin and get very good results. If you go to finishingzone.com they offer a monthly discount
code for 20% off, for me buying 2 gal. it pays for shipping.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm purely a hobby guy… and have only used oil and water based poly, that I brush.

Because my shop is in the basement, I have to be very carefull about fumigating the family….

I'll second Wayne's shout out for Minwax Polyacrlilic….. easy to apply, dries fast and hard, sands well, not to difficult to get a great finish.

Now that I have power in my pole barn, I'm thinking of setting up a cardboard booth (to keep the dust away) and trying out my cheapo sprayer….


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm somewhat confused about this discussion.
Lacquer and Poly have different uses, they are not interchangable. It's not a choice of which to use, just because you like one over the other. It's a choice of what the project calls for.
Lacquer is always an in the house finish, never outside at all. Poly goes both ways. However, while lacquer is quick and gives general protection, poly is slower and gives better protection from moisture. 
Lacquer is always repairable, poly is not.
To end this I would say, switch to waterborne. It's easier and tougher than solvent finishes. Everyone can finish with waterborne.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Lacquer is simply not as duarble, it wears and scratches easily and even the alcohol from mixed drinks will strip it. No, for everyday wear, poly (even water-based) is better. For the ultimate in durability, oil-based poly. I have projects that are 30 years old, been trashed to the point that I took them outside and hosed them down, that still look good with oil-based poly. You simply will never do that with lacquer.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

@EEngineer…What experience do you have using solvent lacquer? I'm guessing not much. The majority of my projects, dating back to the early '80s, are finished with lacquer, and they still look like they were done yesterday. There's nothing wrong with either oil or waterborne poly, but there's no difference in the durability when compared with lacquer of the same vintage. All-in-all, lacquer is the friendliest finish.


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## EdwardP (Jul 13, 2011)

I have very little experience with Lacquer but I have decided to go with Deft spray lacquer or comparable type. I will spray everthing outside my shop since I don't have a booth and hope for good weather and few bugs. I bought a gallon of prestain to try to pull out the grain better but will use no stain on the cherry. Someone suggessed that I put the doors out in the direct sunlight for a few hours to darken the grain?
Moron, what type lacquer do you recommend?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Becker Acroma


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Deft is a great product that sprays great! Go for it!


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## EdwardP (Jul 13, 2011)

Thanks Moron!


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## LepelstatCrafts (Jan 16, 2011)

lacquer


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Years ago everything I used was good old varnish or poly, sometimes shellac if I got really adventurous. Now I cringe if I have to use it. Straight lacquer for me, and in all honesty, although I know it's environmentally friendly, I have not seen the same deep beautiful results in any water based product that you get with normal lacquer and shellac. Maybe I should pop for a quart of this Target stuff.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Poly on your front door, lacquer on everthing else.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Not much to add, but I switched to waterbornes (crystalac) simply because I spray indoors.
No complaints, and I see no need to switch to solvent based for whatever reason.


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## bowtie18 (Apr 30, 2012)

Okay, I've skimmed over all of these responses and I think I have something in mind but I'll ask anyways. I have a set of living room tables that are solid wood (for the most part) and they have been stained. I'm working one table at a time and I'm on the first one. I've sanded the stain off and just applied my first coat of new stain. I want a sealer that will be durable and somewhat water resistant as these are going to be heavily used in the living room. I want to prevent scuffs, scrapes, and water damage as much as possible. I don't really care so much if the appearance is shiny or not because I'm going for more of a rustic look. 
From what I've read so far it seems that Poly would be the best to use to hold up in the long run. Any suggestions on one or the other? And if so which brand/type would you recommend? Oh and I am definitely a beginner here so keep that in mind. I also think with the humidity here and lack of having much place to spray that lacquer is probably not a good idea but I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!


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## Martyroc (Feb 1, 2012)

I use both depending on the project, I just started using a wipe on Poly and in the future I will make my own. I figured for the first time before I start mixing myself I should see what the fuss is all about. Not only the project but also how I feel at the time or in the case of my daughter we started using water based stains and water based poly, only because she is 8 and I don't want here breathing all that stuff in, plus as she puts it, "that stinks, I don't want to help anymore" 
Lacquer is great since it sprays well and I can usually re-coat in 30-45 minutes, water based poly 45-hour brushed on and Spar urethane, about 3 hours or more depending on humidity. So if I need a project completed quicker I have my go to finishes.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

I use both I also use shellac and I like all three and some times I use oil and wax and that is all. I use what is best for the project. I don't like to be in a box of this is all that works I despise routine things and I love to mix it up. I love Sam Maloof danish oil and then wax and a good polish job it does not look like a fake buildup on the wood.It lets the wood live and I like how it looks and feels. But I will also use what ever the customer wants they are the boss.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Consider a waterborne poly floor finish. It's easy to apply, durable, dries quickly, and soap & water cleanup. I've been playing with one called Bona Mega that is available through flooring distributore. I have also used Varathane with success. If it's tough enough to walk on, it's tough enough for furniture.


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## StudioRay (Jan 10, 2014)

Hi All,

Although I'm a musician by trade, I apprenticed for many, many years with an cabinet maker and woodworking is my hobby. It seems to me that there are some fundamental real differences that many people are overlooking.

Polyurethane, especially oil-based, will add more of a yellow/orange color/hue to your finish, whereas lacquer is much more clear, adding hardly any color. Sometimes the added color of a poly is desirable, and sometimes not.

And although I cannot speak for the many new water-based polyurethane products that have come out lately, I can add this experience:

About 10 years ago I had 2 work tables that I had built out of the same wood stock. Out of curiosity, I finished one with Minwax oil-based poly, and one with Minwax water-based. They have served side-by-side over the years and taught me a lot about the differences between the two products.

As expected, the oil poly gave much more of a deeper color to the table which I liked. However what I didn't expect, was how much more worse for the wear the water poly is after all these years. Especially after more than one person told me that the water poly was "just as good" as the oil.

The water poly's finish is much duller now than the oil, and has a gazillion spots on it where I spilled a drop of turpentine or alcohol or acetone or almost anything else - even WATER. Yup, I noticed once that when a water spill was left to stand for a long time, that the finish started to soften and dull under the spot. After all that, it was no more water poly for me! It's just not worth it. However maybe now some of the newer products are better than that.

Cheers,
Ray


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I "grew up" using lacquer. It is good and I like it. Most people like to work with it because it is fairly easy and it is fast. You can spray another coat in short order. If you want durability, then go with oil based Polyurethane. It is the toughest on the market but it can't be recoated in just a couple of hours. The reason the professionals use lacquer is they can finish a kitchen is a day after they mask it off. Poly, well just not so. Poly is still tougher though.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I use either one depending on the piece I am finishing and what I want to achieve with the finish.

A large piece of furniture I will probably use poly as I don't have the spray equipment for lacquer.
For a small piece, intended for desk top or table top, possibly art like I will use Deft lacquer from a rattle can.


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## MalcolmLaurel (Dec 15, 2013)

Forgive me for what might be a stupid question, but why no mention of shellac in this discussion? I realize it's not good for table tops where one might spill an alcoholic drink, but it's easy to work with, dries fast, and is easily repairable.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*MalcolmLaurel*, you're correct I do use that too for toys!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Re "Ninety percent of amateurs use poly, and 90% of pros use lacquer." I would hope that statement to be more of an observation than an indicator of the quality of either finish, or the quality of work either produced.

There are a lot of "pros" producing garbage, then finishing it with lacquer. They are pros based on nothing more than they get paid for their work. On the other hand, there is a lot of amateur work, some on display in museums, exampling remarkable quality that only a rare few pro's "might" duplicate. Much of it is finished in poly, hardening or non-hardening oil, wax or shellac.

Then we can talk about floors. Would you want a floor finished in lacquer, or a good poly?

The primary reason I use lacquer is, it's well suited to commercial applications where durability, such as for holding up against foot traffic, is not the primary concern, or where penetration is not needed. It's clear, can be tinted, sprays easily, builds good and doesn't require a lot of work between coats.

_
An aside: That someone was or is a wood shop teacher impresses me no more than meeting meeting a wood working hobbyist. Many are just parrots of what they think they know. Some are just filling a spot and would rather be elsewhere. Only a few carry the passion needed to be a good teacher.

I had a quarter of wood shop in high school. The kindest thing I could say about my shop teacher is, he was an intelligent idiot of another kind." He had little value, as a shop teacher. People like me [and most his students] interfered with him teaching his more favored students. I produced one project from that class and left it behind. I was told, years later, it still sat on a shelf and had a sign on it, which read "IF YOU DID THIS YOU FLUNKED."

Though my heart was in it, my ignorance won. It is no small irony that: my knowledge of woodworking far dwarfs my only shop teacher's; I own a shop with far better tools and equipment than were available to me in that school shop; and I was invited to an art show in France based on the work I had done.

Add to the forgoing, my father remarried while I was over seas in the sixties. I inherited a step family from it and one of the boys came to live with me while my dad was sick. He needed a high school wood project, so we designed a horizontal cabinet with an etched glass front for his Winchester 30-30. The shop teacher insisted the four sides be made, a dado be made in them, the glass insert as it was assembled, then cut the door off the front, to guarantee it mated with the cabinet.

I argued the door needed to be rabbited, to allow the glass to be removed, in event it ever broke. In the end, the "wise" teacher won and convinced my step brother to do it his way. My step brother broke the etched glass (an elk stepping over a log, with forest and mountains in the back ground, and a small note to the Winchester contents) bringing it home on the bus.

Finally, we could discuss ex father in law, who, also was a shop teacher and held that role for years. Talking with him made it obvious he had a long ways to go to be at the level of someone who takes the hobby seriously, or makes their living creating saw dust.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I use the right finish for the application - Pro vs Amateur is a loose term. To me a "pro" is someone working in a spray booth for 8 hours a day shooting lacquer for 12.00/hr.

Poly gets a bad reputation because people don't know how to use it correctly. I see the same old myths getting thrown around as gospel truth in almost every thread. For example here is a quick and dirty coffee table I made for my kids media/play room finished with Minwax semi-gloss. The base is pine which should never be stained or finished IMO so it got some milk paint.










I broke just about every "rule" to poly with this finish

1 - I shook the hell out of the can
2 - I thinned it
3 - I used a foam brush
4 - I wiped the brush on the edge of the container
5 - I didn't sand anything. This as 6 coats of poly and no piece of abrasive - sandpaper, steel wool, scotchbrite pads, etc ever touched this finish unitl I rubbed out the last coat.

The reason it looks so nice is I took my time and finished it properly. I pore filled with timbermate first, made sure my sanding was perfect by wiping with mineral spirits, gave the poly ample time between coats to set up, I stopped messing with it so it will self level properly without runs and sags. All I did to rub it out was rub it down with some #0000 steel wool dipped in furniture paste wax.

It took about 7 days to finish this - but if you want poly (or any finish) done properly, you have to follow the correct finishing schedule. Many think poly is a super fast finish - it's not at all


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Lumberjoe, sorry, but your technique had me chuckling, as I pictured my own occasional methods.

I've been known to break a few rules too. For example, the bush goes into a coffee can [with thinner], then gets forgotten. When it comes time to clean it, out of the gel it comes and, after running it up and down a cyclone fences a few times, it's ready to go (uh, yeah).

To be honest, I've done that numerous times, such as when loading a piece of wood with thinned poly. When done, you could use the finish to sand the next project. However, after running over it with 600 and oil or water for lubrication, then moving to finer material (e.g., pumice, rotten stone, plastic polish) with my PC random orbit (set to "2"), it looks like a sprayed finish.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

A few people touched upon it but I'll repeat it.

Comparisons between lacquer and polyurethane mean very little until you start talking about specific products. There are many varieties of lacquer and many versions of polyurethane and not all of them perform the same. Many of the precat lacquers have similar durability to off-the-shelf polyurethanes. I suspect most of the post-cats will outperform almost all of the name brand poly finishes at the big box stores in every durability test. The professional 2 part polyurethanes will be even more durable than those postcats.

There is one major benefit that conventional lacquers and precats offer and that is ease of repair. Once a standard polyurethane finish does get a major scratch there's seldom an easy way to fix it. Lacquers can usually be buffed out or simply re-coated.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

JAAUne - also vertical surfaces. I'm not sure if there is a better finish than solvent lacquer for vertical surfaces.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I've only used the per-catalysed finishes a couple times and that was stepping in on someone else's job, to assist. My question would be, how much flex do they have compared to poly? A wood floor on centers has some flex and I wonder if it tolerates movement?

I know they use poly finishes on high end nautical applications, but like floor poly, the formula is altered from what you'd use on a picture frame. When there is going to be flex in the wood from moisture gain, they add more hardening oil (polymerized tung oil on the high end product), which softens the finish, reducing durability, but increasing flexibility. Of course, there is the addition of ultra violet protectants ([reflecting) too.

Since lacquer is 100% a surface coat, when the surface breeches, water can get in and the finish will hold it there, negatively impacting both material protected and the remainder of the finish. The same can happen with oil, but it can be thinned to penetrate, before adding a final coat. So, even if the surface coat breeches, it may be limited to the breech. No?

You are mistaken about the buffing of polys. Buffing is, exactly, how I get a spray quality finish using a brush. Of course, as far as re-coating goes, you are, pretty much, dead on. I've done touch ups by masking and careful touch up, but to call it a pain is an understatement.

None of this is to say lacquer is a fools errand. Like most things, there is no one good solution for everything. Said another way, I won't be painting any of my vehicles with it any time soon.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

@ Lumberjoe

There are other finishes just as good or better for vertical surfaces but they are professional finishes formulated specifically for spray application. I've used some conversion varnishes with excellent vertical cling. But yes, you are right that lacquers are much better suited to this task than any brushing polys from the home improvement centers.

@kelvancra

I've buffed polyurethanes too but it's a different animal. You can buff the final coat to get a nice finish. The catch is that few (if any at all) poly type finishes burn into underlying coats of finish. Typically buffing through the top layer will result in a visible seam between the different layers of finish. Very ugly. If the finish gets scratched deeply enough to go through the top layer, you can't buff it out.

Lacquers effectively create a single thick coating instead of many thin ones. As long as a scratch doesn't get into the wood or stain layer, you can buff it out to look like new.

Regarding flex, that will vary a lot based upon the product in question. Catalyzed finishes are generally harder than the non-catalyzed versions. However, there are 2-part products out there specifically formulated for boats and I suspect those are softer and more flexible than the stuff cabinet-makers use.


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

About 30 years ago there was a scientific study of all the available wood finishes at that time to determine which was the best (the need for speed of a production shop was not a consideration). poly, lacquer, shellac, tung oil, linseed oil, etc. The winner was…a combination of 1 part poly 2 parts Tung or Linseed oil applied by sanding it into the finish with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper thus filling the wood pores with bits of wood, poly, and oil. I finished a black walnut coffee table with this method back then that's still going strong today. You won't get a wet glass like finish with this method but the grain pops nicely and while messy its pretty much idiot proof which back then was an advantage in my case.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

JAAune, I've never had a problem with blowing though to another layer, but have seen poly coats chip off, of their own accord, when not applied right, so I don't know what I've been doing wrong all these forty years.









I am quite serious when I say I polish poly to a smooth surface.

To be fair, I used to buy my two party epoxy in [two] five gallon buckets and used it for ten years before I finally got the company's directions. It was only after that I learned I could not do what I had been doing for all those years - apply epoxy to a vertical surface.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

You didn't do anything wrong with the poly. You just misinterpreted my post. A proper buffing job on new finish shouldn't cut through the final coat into the underlying layers and that's why it's possible to buff out polyurethane finishes to a mirror gloss. It is possible for inexperienced people to get over-zealous with the buffing and go too deep but that's caused by a bad buffing job and not the polyurethane.

Now take that table top and put a deep scratch in it with a steak knife. Chances are the scratch cannot be buffed out to an invisible repair because the lines from the layers will start showing as the scratch is sanded out. That's the trade off between lacquers and polyurethane. Polyurethane is usually harder to damage but harder to repair. Nitrocellulose lacquer and precat lacquer tend to be less tough but can be easily repaired.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Varnish isn't necessarily tougher as the stuff varies *a lot* by brand with some brands having little durability. There are studies that prove this and a long time ago I linked to one in another thread but didn't save the url. Finding the toughest possible finish is important if you're mass producing furniture and especially selling to the Walmart crowd but if you aren't abusing your furniture then any of the film finishes are fine. I have end tables finished in shellac that have held up fine after a decade other than when a tipsy guest spilled whiskey on it but then shellac is about 100x easier to repair than poly. I even used shellac as a floor finish in one room while my wife used varnish in another, guess which held up better? If you guess varnish you'd be wrong.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Regarding shellac as a finish, I worked on the oldest Queen Ann in Olympia, Washington. The house was almost entirely made of cedar. That included the floors, which were finished in amber shellac. Needless to say, cedar is not the hardest flooring material. Still, that eighty-plus year old house was doing just fine.

When I had to add about sixteen square feet of cedar to the floor and finish, matching the shellac required nothing more than going to the big box and picking up a can of Bulls Eye.

Though the house had been neglected the last four decades, the floors were still in surprising shape. The shellac had made it easy for the home owner to tend their own maintenance up to that point. That, likely, would not have happened with lacquer or poly.

That brings up a point: No finish is maintenance free. Because of that, we, sometimes, need to take into consideration the ease of maintenance. For example, a wood fence will last if painted, but even painting is too much for many homeowners. However, slopping a little non-hardening oil on is a breeze and, if done aggressively, will stop cracking and splitting, since the oil replaces lost moisture and swells the wood. Something paint and every other surface coat cannot do.


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## RickyBobby571 (Aug 24, 2015)

I have been applying lacquer and polyurethane over 40 years. If you have the luxury to have a spray booth you would never spray lacquer again. Polyurethane, difficult to apply agreed, but the quality is far better. Just for thought…have you ever looked at a boat that was finished with lacquer? How about a beautiful hardwood floor? Always use polyurethane if you want it to last!


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Lacquer. For production it can not be beat. For sniffing it can not be…wait, what was the question?

I dislike poly due, mainly, to drying time. As previously stated, 3+ coats in a day for lacquer. If you are in a good hot summer climate you can exceeded that. If you do not know how to spray then stick to poly.

Exterior doors: Spar Varnish. There, poly gets its saving grace.


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## DJames (Jan 8, 2018)

For the past day or so I have been finishing a couple pieces in my shop. Finishing is to me a relaxing affair; it's the only time I play music in the shop; I don't need to concentrate to finish. I noticed a disturbance in the force, so to speak, and it took the relaxing out of my finishing and prompted this writing.

The offending sentence; "Ninety percent of amateurs use poly, and 90% of pros use lacquer." It was attributed to the writers' former shop teacher. The implication being that lacquer is somehow a better, more professional finish. Utter nonsense disguised as sage advice. By intentionally misinterpreting statistics to sound knowledgeable and witty we discourage others and demean our beloved woodworking.

Forty something years ago I was a carpenter/novice cabinetmaker. I was just beginning to experiment making furniture. As I got better at furniture I naturally wanted to be better at finishing than just poly and a paint brush. So, I talked to the soon to be "names" in the business. (Many of whom have names you know, for that matter many of you would know my name too.)

I read everything I could find, spoke to the specialized wood working suppliers and read some of the more anal-retentive wood working publications. (I've written for a few of them too.) I learned about lacquer(s), shellac, and oil finishes both canned and custom.

A customer owned a couple of my pieces and a couple by another wood worker I knew and was somewhat in awe of. I was delivering a piece and he showed me a table built by the other wood worker. He'd owned the piece for four years and had to "re-nourish" the finish every year. Very long story short, buyers of quality furniture are a fairly close-knit community and they talk. Turns out that several names I knew used finishes that required "re-nourishment" frequently.

Lacquer crazes allowing whatever is on the table to reach the wood, making the finish haze (even humidity will allow hazing). It also rings; a haze caused by a wet glass. It chips fairly easily and despite the YouTube videos to the contrary is very difficult to repair unless you or your customer is only looking at the repair on screen.
The more esoteric oil finishes, one-part turpentine, one-part varnish, eye of newt and then properly warmed to 83.7 degrees and applied in a swirling pattern by virginal nymphs then buffed out using some absurdly overpriced wax, gathered from the hives of free range pomegranate orchard kept bees. Kept me in business until I was booked for commissions averaging a year in advance. I sanded them out and polyurethaned over them. In those days you could still buy a matte (flat) polyurethane. I got really good with a brush, I practiced, experimented and sanded out more than one screw up.

The bottom line is this; polyurethane is a near perfect finish (near being the operative word). If you practice. Three or four light coats are much better than trying to go heavy. It doesn't dry as fast as lacquer. I've done very large built in units both commercial and residential and hundreds of individual gallery and custom pieces. Fast is never the issue, time management certainly, planning absolutely, but fast never.

For those of you learning (all of us I hope) try stuff see what works and feels right for what you do. Don't be pulled in by ignorant statements presenting themselves as wisdom. I have to concentrate when I build so I don't listen to music while I'm working. But finishing is like dancing, I feel it so I get to listen.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Way to go James posting on a old thread. Poly looks like plastic so I guess your says you like plastic.


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## DJames (Jan 8, 2018)

Aj, it only looks like plastic if you let it. Your inference that I "like plastic' tells me much more about you and your woodworking abilities than you likely intended. Good luck to you.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Forty + years ago when I started teaching industrial arts the students like to use deft but not because of the looks. The vapor smell is what they liked, so poly quickly became the finished they used


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

There you have it, DJames, discussing finishes:

1) Is no longer appropriate;
2) All old threads are to be forever ignored;
3) It's better to sift through hundreds of new threads than look for existing threads; and/or,
4) (fill in your favorite here)

The foregoing critical facts aside, I'd add that I use it all. Right at the moment, I have a couple cans of lacquer sitting on a work table to coat turnings I'll drop in an electroplating bath. It's quick, dirty and simple.

But so is the shellac sitting on another table. I never have to clean the brush. I just drop it in a container full of alcohol. That makes it a great thing for quick finishes on turnings not intended for plating.

I have a mix over at the lathe, with eye of newt and mummified virgin elephant eye lashes. It finalizes on the lathe.

Meanwhile, the kitchen table I refinished for a farmer has seven coats of poly that were wet sanded and buffed. The table and chairs look like they were sprayed and they'll be good for a couple more decades of hard use.


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## indian105 (Jul 30, 2018)

Lacquer is magical. I use foam brushes to apply. The ones that say "don't use with lacquer". One coat and throw away. Sand with fine paper, tac cloth, first coat with the grain. 2 hours later, new foam brush and second coat. Don't forget lacquer must be stirred thoroughly before each use. ESPECIALLY the semi and satin finish types. Now on to the third coat and after plenty of dry time, a good going over with 220 grit paper and your quarter sheet sander. Third coat, fourth coat and again, a very light sanding with 220. Two more coats (with or against grain doesn't matter at this point and again a very, very light sanding with 220. Try to get the finish even and dull with no shine spots. One more coat and let dry overnight. Get the orbital sander out and start with 300+ grit paper and spray the surface with Windex or other glass cleaner diluted half with water. Wipe off residue and move to 800 grit paper (light touch). Wipe again and move to 2000 grit paper for polishing. If you can get a better finish (that deep and with that luster), let me know how. P.S. Ever touch up with Poly? You can with lacquer.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

While touch up with lacquer trumps poly, I've got the results you describe using poly with a brush.

I apply about seven coats of poly per directions. If I have to sand between coats, I use 3-M pads because I don't want to reduce mil coat coverage, but do want to scuff the surface.

When seven coats are on and dry, I sand with 400 using a pad sander and water or oil.

When the surface is opaque and smooth, I buff with oil or water and pumice stone.

Next, I use rotten stone and oil or water for a buff step.

For the final buff, I go to plastic polish, like McGuires. Swirl Mark Remover from Mothers will do too.

When done, the finish looks like it was sprayed on.

_
NOTE: To make a slurry of pumice or rottenstone, either water or mineral oil will work, but the oil does not dry like water does.


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## bold1 (May 5, 2013)

Just my two cents. I've used shellac, lacquer, and poly. I'm no expert on any of them. But what I am using now for most of my projects is Zar exterior oil based fast dry, right off the shelve. Most of my work gets used and the exterior poly seems to hold up better than anything else I've tried, whether inside of out. Brush on, it has about a 4 hour dry time. It's not cheap. A quart runs close to $20 here, and unless I take haz mat classes, I can't buy it in larger containers( although I can buy as many quarts as I want! Stupid laws).


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## enazle (May 18, 2018)

I never use Poly. I will use conversion varnish or Pre-cat. The longer stuff sits before it flashes off the more stuff settles on it. That's why we always used fast drying finishes.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

and then there is the, "I have to match the amber tint of the existing finish" thing. Might be rough if we used ONLY finish B.


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