# Curved arbor patio cover



## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Challenge of the day…seeking ideas on how to build an arbor like structure over a curved patio that is shaped like a grand piano. I have a roof line on one end to start the timbers but will have to rely on posts and stringers for the outside curve. Any ideas?







!http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2740/4120338277_768715f174.jpg(curved patio)

Also, if this is not the right place to ask this question do any of you have suggestions as to where else to post this type of query? I have already posted to HomeRefurbers. Thanks.


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## ehegwer (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm thinking two circular arbors instead of one more square/rectangular one, but then my designs always lean towards the modern.


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## tallpaul (Feb 12, 2008)

Maybe think about octagonal rather than circular? Hexagon? Pentagon?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

How about an elliptical cloud?


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Okay, but how do you frame the curve? I can envision following the curve of the patio now, but I'm concerned that the curve will force me into so many posts it will feel like a jail inside. I would like to keep the posts at a minimum, maybe six or seven and figure out a way to build strength and a curved silhouette into the roof (which will remain rafters only like an arbor). Maybe a lintel assembly with rafters extending beyond to establish the curve?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Beth
Is this patio cover for shade or is it to be water proof.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Build the frame for support and let the curve be a façade.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

This is an interesting question. It really depends on what the property owners want. For me, I would consider an arbor that is not conntected to the home. Start about 5 ft from the existing structure and create an arbor that follows the outline of the patio - stopping about 5 ft from the building on the other side. I would make the arbor about 5 - 7 ft wide and explore interesting ways to place the cross pieces on the top (something radial). -- on the other hand, if the property owners are not interested then never mind!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It will be a lot easier to stablize with a connection to the home. A free standing pole structure will require a lot of cross bracing to stand up to the wind.


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## jlsmith5963 (Mar 26, 2009)

If it would be acceptable to have only the top 2×2 members to be cut so the mimic the curve, then you could do the following:
Build a right angled structural post and beam system that would support the 2×2 top members, as is typical and then add the cross members running parallel to the wall with the door. Then add a top layer of 2×2 members that run perpendicular to the wall with the door and end at the edge of the patio curve. In order to get the 2×2s cut correctly lay them out directly on the patio adjusting their spacing so it gives you the desired visual effect . Then trim each 2×2 to whatever length the patio is at its location. Once they have all been trimmed mount them on top the cross members using the same spacing. This design would have no actual curved cuts yet the 2×2 as a group would make a strong visual curve that matches the curve of the patio.

If you need a clearer description let me know, I could probably whip it up in Sketchup.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

a1Jim, the homeowners (and my) vision is for shade, not full enclosure. Also, for what it is worth, the back of the house faces west. I have 15 feet from the main house to the western edge of the patio and from the northern facing part of the house that projects further west, there is 16 feet of patio before the patio begins its curve another 6 feet to the sidewalk. I would like to leave as much of this area clear as possible for furniture placement. And yes, the wind does come sweeping o'er the plain, just like in the song. This is Oklahoma, after all, so stability is important.

jlsmith, I'm intrigued by your idea. What I have not yet visualized is how to stabilize the posts as they will have to be anchored into the existing concrete somehow. I need something solid at their tops to hold them in place. If you are a Sketchup wiz, your assistance would be very helpful to me.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Beth
I think I would add a 4×6 beam at the house supported by 4×4s up close to the house about as long or longer than the roof line were the door is plus having three 4×4 post about 2 feet in from the out side radius of the patio ,this would form a kind of a open "L" shape towards the out side edge with 4×6 headers forming that L shape. then some 2×6 or 2×8 rafters running from the house towards the outside L were it can cantilever over the L shape up to 2 feet towards the outside edge of the patio and be trimmed to mimic the radius on the patio. These joist would be closer together at the house than towards the out side edge to kind of a fan shape as you look up from the patio. On top of the joist you can place bamboo shade material,2×2 strips running across the joist or a pvc material like Sun Tuff.


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## jlsmith5963 (Mar 26, 2009)

Maybe I am missing something, lets do a visual check. In you mind does the construction of the arbor look something like this? 









If it does I am not sure why you are concerned about attaching it to the slab (if there is strong enough wind to move this thing then you have bigger problems then the arbor moving). But there is nothing stopping you from drilling some holes in the slab and epoxying in some threaded rod that you can use to bolt down typical base connectors that the columns can be attached to, of course you will want to trim out the columns to hide the connectors. So let me know if I don't understand. (Btw I am an architect)


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

jlsmith5983; If you think weight alone will hold the posts, so much the better for me. I revisited the site today and decided I can get by with five posts on the outside edge, spanned 4'-5' apart, and positioned to follow the outside curve without cutting it off with too much angle. The upper structure could then be similar to the picture posted above with it being more fan shaped than rectangular.

a1Jim; Unseen in the original photo is another door situated in the corner where the house projects out 6'. This door makes post placement impossible in that area. So your suggestion to place a beam there becomes problematic. That issue poses finding a good way to attach the upper structure to the roof without 1) blocking drainage to the gutters or compromising the integrity of the shingles.

Any more ideas? I'm taking them all in and bringing this together with your help.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Beth
Still not a problem just have your post back close to the corner of the house and let the 4×6 cantilever.
With this kind load you can get away with close to 3' of cantilever. In the last 20 years I've built 200 or more patio covers and even more decks. One suggestion was given about connecting the 4×4 post vertical supports to the top of the patio surface, would never fly in my area, our code wants a minimum of 12" x12" X 18" deep around our post.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

just a silly thought have you ever considered laminating 6mm wpb ply to the thickness you want then rap it in oak or what ever finish you are after…. industrial scale i know but a possibility i have seen this done before they used epoxy to laminate the boards together very strong and looked stunning when finished


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

The door in the projection has only 6" of clearance from the corner. The overhang projects 2' from the main house and 1' from the projection. This structure is what is primarily blocking the placement of a post in that corner. If I clear both overhangs, the post would be blocking the door. 
There is also a sidewalk at the other end which would also be blocked by placing posts.

Positioning the posts and beam 4' away from the house might work. I'll have to go back and give that idea an onsite visual to see if it impedes the doors.

a1Jim; What is your take on securing the posts to the patio? Can they just sit on the slab and let the weight of the structure hold them in place?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Beth 
What I was suggesting is to have the post were the wall ends not the roof and have the 4×6 high enough so the bottom of the 4×6 is not any lower than the gutters bottom edge. and of course there would not be a direct connection to the house.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

a1Jim; The wall ends at 6' which is probably further away than I need to be. I see what you are saying, however, and that visualization will make my life much easier. I'm going to try and draw this out in SketchUp. I'll post it if I'm successful. (I'm not a proficient SketchUp user yet, but know I'm going to need to become one to keep up with the times.) Thanks.

Do you have any insight on whether I need to tie the posts to the slab?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you have the 4×6 top beam go past the post & corner by 3' (cantilever) would that help what you have in mind? If that's not far enough out you can increase the size of the beam to 4×8 and cantilever up to 4'. 
I know what you mean about Sketch up, I wish DaveR lived next door he's The great Sketch up guy.
I always want to explain my self with a drawing but can't do it as well as I like because of the lack of Sketch up skills.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

I think I can get by with 4×6 beams cantilevered up to 3' to get them closer to the gutter. I'll double them so they will sandwich the posts, then run additional 2×2's ( or whatever dimension ends up having the best look) on top parallel to the house projection to establish the curved visual. These can extend past the beams to draw me visually closer to the house.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I missed that second part of the question,That's what I was talking about in my earlier post "One suggestion was given about connecting the 4×4 post vertical supports to the top of the patio surface, this would never fly in my area, our code wants a minimum of 12" x12" X 18" deep around our post." I'm talking about cutting a hole in the concrete and post hole digging down at least 18" and having the hole be 12"x 12" square. a surface mounted system with you post on top will tend to fall over or be subject to lift in high winds.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Would a masonry blade on a circular saw do the trick or would I need to rent a concrete saw? And what about mismatched colors, texture and seam lines on the fill?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Your talking about having the rafters run from the house towards the outside edge of the patio with 2×2s
on top running parallel to the house.
The concrete you can use a regular circular saw with a Carborundum blade . I would make the cut out 16'x16'
if you are going to have a 12"x12" hole to give you more area to dig the hole. After you cut the square it would be best to rent a small jackhammer they weigh about 45lbs. Your not going to be able to make the new concrete match the old, but if you cut it out nice and neat it won't look bad when poor and finish the new concrete.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

I'm thinking the rafters should run parallel to the roof line with the 2×2s perpendicular so they can create the curve on the outside edge.
I have a 1" hammer drill which will probably do the jackhammer work. If I use treated wood, do I need to add extra sealant to the underground portion that will be sitting in concrete?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you do that then the beams and post have to run long ways That means more vertical post and beams given the span your covering. You can cut the rafters to follow the shape of the patio also if you run from front to back with the rafters. You also have to consider the size of your rafters depending on the span between supports no matter which way you go with the rafters.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

I see your point. The run from the house to the patio edge is less than the width of the patio. If I start the posts 4' from the house, and use a 2' cantilever on the end next to the house, that leaves a maximum span of 9'. Running the other direction would make the span longer. Do you think two posts will suffice as rafter supports if I use 2×6's? The only load they need to carry are the 2×2's. I'd like to use 5 rafters fanned to fill the space (spaced from 3' to 4'). That would require ten posts total. Yikes. The other consideration is does that leave enough clear space for patio furniture? (Thinking out loud here. Bear with me.) That thought is what drove me to the roof connection thinking in the first place.
Maybe six posts carrying three rafters are enough if I use a double layer roof like jlsmith5963's picture? Those look like 2×8's under 2×6's under 2×2's.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Beth
I would go with more joist say 2' oc and less 4×4 uprights say up to 5' apart if using 4×6 beams and up to 8'apart if using 4×8' beams. Rafter spans up to 9'6" can be 2×6" rafters more than 9'6" up to 11'6 can be 2×8s hopefully your spans are not greater than that. If you have codes check them in your area I know Texas has none and it seemed the city I lived in ,in OK. had none. If that's the case you can fudge a little on those span numbers I gave you.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Thanks Jim. I'll fly this one by you when I get it drawn up. Much appreciation for your help.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

I've come up with a design for the pergola. Does anyone know how to upload SketchUp docs to Lumberjocks?


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Here is my preliminary design. I have not run it past the client yet.
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=136c94098e9a9d55a3515bf6fc8a1044


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Sorry Beth, but the screen says,"

You have requested a model or a collection that does not exist."


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Beth
I see the sketch but it's so small it's hard to see much other the overall look.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks bentlyj
Looks good Beth. Are those beams running down the middle? if so what size are they ? what size rafters are you using ? and what is the span of the rafters? what size post and what kind of material are they? How are you going to connect the beams? around the perimeter.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Tht's it, I don't have shetchup. From the address, I didn't think I would have to dn load it )


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

The posts are 6×6. The next layer (from the bottom up) which I will call beams are 2×8's, followed by 2×6 joists, 16" on center, and a 2×2 top layer. The joists are butted together at the center to make the overall span of 20 feet more manageable. I will anchor the posts to the concrete by whichever means the building department requires (either sinking the posts below grade or using topside post anchors attached with wedge anchors). No decision on material yet. I haven't searched price, availability or "best choice" yet. The beams will be connected to the posts using threaded galvanized hex head anchors on the straight sections and screwed with Timberlock fasteners on the angles.

p.s. This was my first time using SketchUp. What an adventure that was! I'm still tinkering with the house behind the Pergola, learning as I go.

p.p.s. Any suggestions on what to charge for labor to build this thing?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Beth
I would suggest pressure treated post for you 6×6 and some Simpson metal fasteners to connect your out side perimeter rafters , 20ft is a long span if there are no supports to break up that span. I'm sure if you go down to your building department they will tell you what the want


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

The maximum span from front to back is only 12 feet, so I'm hoping the 2×8's are big enough. The 20 foot span runs from side to side, and those joists are on top of the 2×8's. If this all passes muster (or if not) I'll post the results just in case someone else reading this decides to build one like it.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Forgot to say great sketch up drawing. Good luck on your project beth. Be careful out there.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

I have updated the SketchUp drawing of the pergola, expanding it to better fit the patio space. My SketchUp skill set improves daily, which will be evident if you look at the revised project. The client has approved the design. I'm working on the pricing now to see if I am willing to put it together within the client's preferred budget. Any good sources for treated lumber or cedar that can be delivered to my door? The big box treated lumber is quite green and would have to age for a while before I could paint it. I would prefer to use cedar and not have to paint at all, but the price point is considerably higher.
Sorry for the long delay between my last post. I was working a remodel project in another state and then spent some R&R traveling.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=3c3373a7b23a41c9a3515bf6fc8a1044&prevstart=0


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

a1Jim…...............if I were you I would send Beth an invoice for the design and Beth can put on a percentage and hand that off to the client….....(grin) (smile)

I am perplexed at how a client with such a nice home would even consider giving such a project to a novice yet we all start somewhere?..................and thank God for that eh!

From what I read

you cant draw and sketch up programming is "iffy"

you know little about spans,loads, bearings and in general…........the building code

you dont where to buy lumber?...............I'll stop there.

no wonder Mike Holmes is busy. If this was for a friend, for family, for yourself, I might not be shaking my head so much. maybe offer the design for $$$$............and then contract out the rest?.......thats what most designers do !


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I say the above with good intent, there is nothing like a law suit to settle inexperience and there is nothing uglier then being at the loosing end of one.


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## rrdesigns (Sep 4, 2009)

Roman, first of all, I am no rookie. I have been a successful full time remodeler for 14 years. Have I built hundreds of pergolas? No. It is not my specialty. Am I capable of building one? Yes. And yes I am knowledgeable about spans and loads and building codes. Did I choose to throw this project into an LJ forum to potentially get insights from more experienced woodworkers in this particular area of design and construction? Yes. That is the reason these forums exist. And the constructive suggestions that I received from the other contributing LJ members did help me to formulate my design for this project. To these members, I say thank you very much. I will do the same when my expertise and experiences can be appropriately shared. As to the value in your comments? Not so much.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Sorry, I checked out your extensive projects, did a little perusal of your expertise and almost forgot who was talking too. I am dumbfounded as I sit in awe.

But I am still curious as to why you ask these questions if you already knew the answers and you being a fulltime "remodeler" (what ever that new word is?) for the past 14 years and having built hundreds of pergolas (after building 50 pergolas,unless they are a disaster, I doubt any one on this forum would have more experience then you?) perhaps you could post a dozen or so pics of them ?..........I for one, would love to see them.

Cheers


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