# Who Would EVER Measure in Thousandths?



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

I just wanted to get a little input from other lumberjocks on this idea. My partner in the shop and I have a friend who is primarily a metal worker. Not your run of the mill metal worker mind you, he builds the most amazing things, like a spectacular rifle from a D5 cat axle, or a pickup truck from scratch. To say I have respect for this mans opinion is an understatement. …Anyhow, he was in the shop a few weeks ago and chastised us for working in imperial rule, that is to say 1/16", 1/64" and so-on. He vehemently thrust decimal upon us. In fact he made me recite the decimal equivalents for ½", ¼" and 1/8" on the spot! His point was, if you're trying to be accurate, 1/64" tells you nothing, but if your 15 thousandths off, well that has meaning.

I scoffed at measuring wood in thousandths, to much variability, set up and every tool I have is in an empirical form in one sort or another. My joints have always been pretty tight, close as I could get them. But, as I said I have a great deal of respect for this man and if he tells me something is a good idea…well. So I went to Lowes, bought myself a empirical calculator, (you know the one that lets you type in 1/8th inch and then will convert it to .125 inches or vise-versa), and ordered a 6 inch digital caliper from Lee Valley, I was going to give this idea a go. Admittedly, I have ALWAYS been first to lambaste people who preached "thousandths" when dealing with wood working, but as I said…the man has my respect,…and, some one month later, I am here to tell you I am a convert!

Measuring to the thousandth has improved my fits on joints exponentially, (and I tell you, with enough time and lumber, I could come up with pretty good joints before. For example, my current project is a set of Morris chairs using through tenons. As I cut some tenons today, I worked until a final check with my spiffy Lee Valley calipers and see they are .4907 inches for a ½ inch (sorry), I mean a .5000 inch mortise! Sorry if I blow that out of proportion, but for me that is ti-eght! And I didn't even have to check the fit, I knew it would fine.

Now, I find myself thinking about the cuts I have to make in terms of thousandths, and as a consequence, my overall work is WAY more tight. So my forum subject is, "…anyone else doing this?…and if you are, why didn't YOU tell me about it!"

Food for thought -

Schroeder


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

I had a teacher (fine furniture) married to a carpenter. She got him to be more precise than is required, but said we shouldn't worry about going beyond 32 or 64ths… what with wood movement and all, perhaps taking out the breathing room isn't that good an idea.

That said, I did work on stair spindles in metric friday and found it easier, but I still don't quite think that the tolerances required in precision machinery is neccessary in a coffeetable. My friends parents had a table that was either convex or concave at differing points of the year, only at equilibrium around the equinoxes.

But, if it works for you, I'm not going to tell you not to do it. You can still say half inch though… we know that 1/2, .5 and .500000 are all the same thing.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

*WARNING: THIS RESPONSE WRITTEN WITH TONGUE IN CHEEK - DON'T BE OFFENDED.*

You guys just need to know that the rest of the world, yes, the entire rest of the world just sits back and shakes their heads at this kind of discussion. Imagine anything more ridiculous than expressing the Imperial system in decimal fractions? If you start with a flawed premise, you end up with a flawed result.

No amount of flab-gab is going to change real life, Mates, but the true decimal system is known as the Metric System. It's simple (I know - because it works for me) easy to learn and requires no mathematics other than adding and subtracting.

So, to respond to your question, "Who Would EVER Measure in Thousandths?"; I work in .03937" = 1mm. Can you see how much easier Metric is in this simple example? *LOL*


----------



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

okay, ya gotta point there!


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

I have placed a Wixley digital scale on my thickness planer. When it is on for 11/64 it shows the 11/64 and the thousands.

But when I was making a cradle and I need a couple of additional pieces of cherry. I put the dial caliper on it and it stated that it was .705 Thou. I planed the wood to .705 thou and you wouldn't know that it had been planed a week later. It was exactly the same thickness.

Yes I do use Thousands in my woodworking.

Sorry Don but I think you were the first to tell me that you had printed my Fraction of an inch, Decimal and Millimeter conversion chart. :>)


----------



## Corndog (Feb 8, 2007)

Hi guys. I'm new.
Us guitar makers measure in thousandths all the time.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

*Quote Karson:* "Sorry Don but I think you were the first to tell me that you had printed my Fraction of an inch, Decimal and Millimeter conversion chart."

As I said Karson, "No amount of flab-gab is going to change real life, Mates…" I prefer to use Metric, but I do live in the real world. Everything I purchase out of the US is Imperial, so I have to work with it, and decimal fractions are easier to use than whole fractions. LOL


----------



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

The more I think about it Don, if a Draft would come in a liter instead of a pint, I may go metric!


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

Schroeder, the following is a quote from this web site. Worth a visit.

"Australians consume four times as much beer per year than any other nation. Alcohol content is high - nearly 8 percent in some cases - and it is served in three sizes:
• 10 ounces, called a "middie" in NSW or a "pot" in Queensland and Victoria.
• 15 ounces, called a "schooner." 
• In Victoria they don't sell schooners, but do sell pints (20 oz). Some beers are in draught form (on tap) and others can be purchased only as a stubbie (bottle) or tinnie (can). (Aussies shorten a lot of words eg BBQ is a Barbie). It is called a tinnie because it used to be made from tin, but today has followed the trend in being made from aluminum. "

(I think the ounces bit is a translation for the US market.)


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

metric is simpler 
and weight is much simpler (all in grams instead of pounds and ounces)
and temperature much simpler (0 freeze / 100 boil)
but I still think in inches, and pounds, and fehrenheit
and I talk in .. hmmm what would you call this:
Weight: I would like to buy 6 slices of meat
Temperature: it's hotter than blazes outside and yikes.. the humidity!
Length: it's about this long (indicating length with fingers and arms)

And so, how do I measure down in the shop? hahaha oh I should let Rick answer this one for you lol…. here's an exact quote of my measuring: "3 1/4 inches plus a little line".


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

Measuring in thousandths is like sanding 1500 grit sand paper. Great slapping together a guitar, but could be a little much doing a kitchen. I start cussing in my shop and the wood all swells .0002 thousandths from the added humidity.


----------



## Obi (Oct 19, 2006)

Well if you all would just make it perfect, no one will ever notice.

And what's a guy to do? The sell the tape measures in 32ths of an inch. Thats what i bought, thats what i got, thats what I use.

See what rebelling will get you? You get to make up your own measuing system


----------



## Corndog (Feb 8, 2007)

I was just talkin' about fret,bridge and nut placement. Those parts are critical.
Set up too. String hieght at the nut ect. You could probably just breath on a piece of wood and get it to move a thou or 2.


----------



## Obi (Oct 19, 2006)

Hey Corndog,
Ever scallop your frets?


----------



## Corndog (Feb 8, 2007)

No never!!!Scalloping fret boards was a horribly bad joke from the '80's.
I've seen some so-called "luthiers" scallop the board down to the truss rod.
IMHO it serves no purpose. Some will argue better access for bending stgings, forces a lighter touch…BUNK I say. That old guitar you scalloped 20 years ago may have been worth more today if you had left it alone. Non- invasive modifications are fine[ pick-up swaps, new tuners ect] but messing with the board…..naw.

...but that's just me.


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

I did a carving of my wifes profile once. I never measure anything while carving, but a couple of thousandths of an inch on a small carving can make the difference on a persons face. If you remove to much you can't put it back, so it looks like someone else. I'll have to show this on a project posting.


----------



## Dollarbill (Jan 26, 2007)

For the last four years I have been spending my summers in Beautiful Downtown Russia. Anytime I want to confuse my friends over there, I just hand them my American tape measure and let them try to figure out our screwed up American measureing system. Thats always good for a few hours of laughs. They are ahead of us in a few ways.

Paka


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Everything we buy nowadays, comes from Metric countries, maybe that could be why they don't want to buy our stuff. It doesn't fit into their Metric world.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

In college they figured us cabinet makers needed to learn metrics. So they went out and found the worst teacher (PHD) I ever had. I do well in math and she had me all kitty wompass. The other poor students where just pulling their hair out. We had these two page answers to problems like how to convert .05 meters to 5 centimeters. She would yell at the kids. It was crazy. I looked forward to metrics now it just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I think I suffer some PTSD from the experience. We should have changed to metrics 50 years ago.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

*Quote Dick:* "Everything we buy nowadays, comes from Metric countries, maybe that could be why they don't want to buy our stuff. It doesn't fit into their Metric world."

Yes. You know the problems a US mechanic has with a European car - reverse that for the entire rest of the world. When a US made car drives into an Aussie shop the owner is shown the way out.

*Quote dennis mitchell:* "In college they figured us cabinet makers needed to learn metrics. So they went out and found the worst teacher (PHD) I ever had."

Good college - bad teacher. If you can't teach someone how to divide or multiply by ten you are not a teacher.


----------



## Corndog (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm confused. You guys are all talkin' metric….
I thought this discussion was about thousandths of an INCH. As far as I know, that's imperial measurment not metric.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

Hey, Corndog, it's called hijacking! *LOL*


----------



## Corndog (Feb 8, 2007)

LOL!!! Fair enough!!! I'm REALLY guilty of that on my local music board.
"Thread de-railed!!!"


----------



## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

The USA was going to switch to Metric quite a few years ago, I don't remember what year. That must been *Hijacked* also.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

Actually, Dick, it was Thomas Jefferson, in 1790, who proposed a decimal system even before the Metric System was formalized.

If you would like to read a long and unfortunately unproductive history of the US metric considerations, read this.


----------



## scottb (Jul 21, 2006)

So when our teachers told us that we'd be learning metric soon, so lets get ready for it… they're just repeating what their teachers (and thier teachers before them) said?

Looking back on the birth of the nation, I'm surprised that with all the British things we gave up in declaring our independence, that we share a common system of measure.


----------



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

geez, now you guys have me doing it to even on my own thread - Back in the days when I worked for a lumber mill, we had to convert all the empirical measurements to metric for all government orders - we never changed the actual size of the lumber - just how we just bid and recorded the tally using the metric system. I still haven't figured out that one! Ahhh….but I digress, ...carry on


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Dick:

We switched to metric. When was the last time you bought a 1/2 Gal bottle of Coke. I notice we are now getting Metric Ice Cream. They do that to give you a smaller package for the same price.

The Milk industry is still Gal. Except for Ice Cream


----------



## decoustudio (May 4, 2006)

You are all right, metric is simplier. But, I just don't have a "feel" for it.

I use a digital caliper, and when I started this, it greatly improved my work. It doesn't take as long as trying to figure out whether I am going to read on "this" side, or "that" side of the tape measure mark, and is a lot more accurate. What I really need is a caliper that runs out about 8 feet in length!

I do what Karson described in planing boards every day, works great, although I don't have the measuring instrument on the machine, so I have to run a board, and take a measurement by hand, adjust, run a board, take a measurement, etc.

I couldn't read the dial caliper correctly every time, so I switched to digital and use a calculator and a printed spreadsheet with fractions and decimal points laid out so I can convert them back and forth.

Switching to metric would be great and much more efficient, but it just doesn't feel right yet for me. I have considered it seriously, but I seem to always go back to what feels right. Habits are hard to break for sure.

I would like to see that rifle if your friend will let you post a photo in a blog or something.


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

Marc, remember, typing didn't feel right to you, but I bet you don't give it a second thought now.


----------



## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

So this one's kinda for Don, and is meant to be similarly tongue-in-cheek…

I'm a USAnian, but most of my tools have adjustments in metric (German engineering). Succumbing to the inevitable, I went out the other day searching for a good fine-grained metric ruler, and found that the finest gradations on the things in my local hardware store were in millimeters.

Not too surprising, I don't really have any woodworking shops locally, most of these places cater to builders working with wet fir who think that a sixteenth is overkill, but that got me to thinking: A millimeter is nowhere near accurate enough. Half a millimeter is getting to the right range, but a quarter millimeter is almost too much, as now we're down under a hundredth of an inch, a resolution that, with some good filtering, is almost good enough to print photographs at.

Whereas a 64th of an inch is just about a perfect small graduation for the naked eye.

Sure, I can pull out the old vernier calipers and get a hundredth of a mm, and I'm starting to do that more often, but the big failure with metric is that by pulling arbitrary numbers out of the air rather than starting from scales which evolved to mean something to real human beings, they aren't really all that usable on human scales. And by using base 10, rather than something logical like base 2 (ie: 1/2, 1/4, etc), the system not only makes its leaps too big, but is ill suited for the computer age.

I'll adopt the metric system because that's what the world is going to, but given the issues with computerization of base 10 systems, it seems like the metric system is really a dated last-century scheme.

Whereas the imperial system is one for the ages.

Or, as others have said, why should we give up something God gave the English for something invented by a Frenchman?

Although most of this is probably just that I'm a computer geek first and foremost, base 2 is my first numbering system and base 10 feels like a grade school affectation.


----------



## oscorner (Aug 7, 2006)

It looks like we've waisted a lifetime trying to convert to metric and where did it get us? Right here, still talking about whether or not it is a better system. I think that metric would be easier because it does away with figuring the fractions, but I haven't been able to convert. The best I've been able to do is to remember that a 14mm socket=9/16"; 13mm=1/2" or there about and 11mm=7/16". I must agree with, Dan, a 64th of an inch is just about a perfect small graduation for the naked eye.


----------



## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

in case anyone doesn't get the Woodworker's Journal Ezine, (current issue February 2007), here is a quote from Rob Johnstone, the editor:

In recent weeks, there have been various reports of oversized rodents poking their beady-eyed heads out of their respective holes in the ground with the goal of predicting the end of winter. While I am generally in favor of traditions, this one seems a bit silly to me. Especially when there is a much more accurate means of determining the depth of winter and the likely onset of spring. I am, of course, speaking of the woodshop winter metric system (WWMS for short). Note to reader: this should not be confused with "The Metric" system that for some reason strikes irrational fear into every fraction-fond American woodworker.

how fitting that not only he is speaking of spring (as in Frank's latest blog) but also of the debate we are currently having regarding the metric system!!


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I just found myself having to add a 3% catalyst to the my varnish so I convert everything to liters. Find the 3%. Then convert everything back to gallons and teaspoons. I don't see what the problem is. Cups, gallons, pints, quarts, teaspoons, tablespoons. What is 3% of 2/3 of a cup expressed in teaspoons?(to the nearest 1000th)


----------



## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Dennis:

if you use 3.003% catalyst does that make the varnish brittle or stay sticky on your wood.

Karson


----------



## Don (Dec 18, 2006)

I think this thread is getting a little old, but here's the most comprehensive converter of all types of measurements I've ever seen. To get the conversion factor you require, just type '1' into the measure you want to convert. Or, type the measurement you know into the table to learn how it converts to the measurement you want.


----------



## Billp (Nov 25, 2006)

One time I had a job where we worked in Millionths, that's so small we had to use light to measure it.


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, I worked in a shop with alot of high end equipment. The accuracy on some of these machines was with the thousandths, however, in order to use them, you had to be able to convert to thousandths from fractions, which was kind of a pain really. And of course the calipers measured in thousandths, and I was held to an extremely small margine of error, of which I never saw anyone else in the entire shop which employed approximately 50 people held to that same exacting standard.

PS. It's far easier to observe a 64th on a tape than it is to see .0125.


----------



## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I think it is great that you are talking about wood working projects that are to be built to within thousandths of an inch. A very commendable goal but after you have purchased all the calipers, dial gauges and precision rulers who will need to give some thought to other equipment. What is the runout on your best saw blade. How much wobble in the quill on your drill press. Is there any slop in the miter track. Just how accurate is the compass on your miter gauge. How well can you see the markings on that steel rule - the one marked in 64ths.

Accurate to 1/64th of an inch, hmmmm .015625" - that's more accurate than I'll ever need.


----------



## americancanuck (Apr 4, 2011)

I rarely use a tape measure for anything any more. Everything is done with relative measure. It doesn't matter whether you call a peice of a project an inch or a miilmeter or a smidgen as long as any 2 peices are the same. when I do need to use some sort of numerical measure I always convert everything to base 10. therefore I do measure everything in 10's, 100's, or 1000's. The math is sooo much easier. When I worked as a machinist (35 years of that) most of my tolerances were at 4 decimal places. In my wood working I find that for the most part 2 decimal places is sufficent.
All in all as I said earlier it makes no diference what you call your base unit (in the US it's the inch) as long as when you divide it you split it into parts that are divisiable by ten.


----------



## petemohr (Dec 11, 2009)

Lets end all this petty bickering and all of us rally around *"The BOB"*

*The Argument:
*
The Metric system excels at smaller measurement while Feet and Inches are better suited to larger. Because of these innate characteristics I have always used both, often in awkward combination. The Metric system's only real asset is the particular size of the millimeter. This happens to be an ideal "small" unit of measure. Smaller than a 1/16" and larger than a 1/32", it can be distinguished easily without reading glasses while at the same time is fine enough to be a basic increment of woodworking precision.
In every other respect the Metric system is inadequate. There can be no rational argument in favor of a system that divides and multiplies by tens. It is perhaps not surprising that we break the day into 24 hours rather than 20, the hour into 60 minutes rather than 100 and so on. By the same token we divide the circle into 360 degrees rather than 100 or 1000. It is because the basic building block of twelve is vastly more versatile than ten, whose capacity for easy division by five and multiplication by ten is a talent I cannot remember ever having needed in 25 years of woodworking.

Feet and Inches supply a manageable series of larger increments. Feet and Inches break up what in the Metric system tend to be long easily corrupted numbers into readily recalled chunks. For example a Metric length of 2286mm equals 7 feet 6 inches. While 2286 might easily become 2268 in our fallible memories, it is hard to not notice 7 feet 6 inches becoming 6 feet 7 inches. The inspired division of the foot into 12 inches rather than 10 allows easy division into halves, thirds and quarters.

The great failing of Feet and Inches is the multitude of unsatisfactory fractions that make addition, subtraction and division an exercise in mental agility and provide ample opportunity for error. Nobody can quickly and reliably add 11 7/16" and 4 5/32" then divide the result by two, let alone three.

With our new rulers all these issues become a thing of the past and we find a system that combines the best of both of the old without any of their failings. This is achieved by employing the 1/24" as the basic increment. The 1/24" is a useful increment in a number of ways. Like the foot, which can be easily divided into halves, thirds, quarters, sixths and twelfths, an inch made up of 1/24th's can be divided into halves, thirds, quarters, sixths, eights, and twelfths (try that with the metric system). The 1/24" is very close in size to the millimeter and so has the same natural advantage as an ideal small unit. These rulers allow us to take advantage of the largely forgotten 1/24" and elevate it to its rightful place as a core unit of measurement.

pete


----------



## b2rtch (Jan 20, 2010)

Me at work!
In fact I use 1/10 of a thousand of an inch and also 1/10of thousand of a gram.
This a part of my job.


----------



## ScottN (Jan 24, 2011)

My main job is I'm a foreman for a road construction company. It was about 10-15 years ago The state plans were made in metric. The surveying that was done on the job was in tenths scale. And all the workers on the job were caring fractional tape measures. What a pain in the ass that was. I spent most of my time converting measurements.

I agree..I think metric would be the way to go. Tenths and metric are the same measuring principles.


----------



## ryansworkshop (Dec 2, 2011)

At work I have used three different units of measurements. Imperial, Engineers and Metric.

The blueprints are as followed. The site work in Engineers (.0812 equals 1"). Than the foundation building lines are in Imperial (feet, inches and fractions of). All the details are in metric.

Most US gov't blueprints are in metric. I remember when this change occurred. We all had Starrett Digital tapes. You would measure the length and push a button and it would convert from Imperial to Metric. Worked well for about a day. Got wet, cold, etc.

There is a time and place for all types of measurements.

Doing a lot of survey and large layout work, we used degrees, minutes and seconds, then decimal degrees. Now the Recon Survey pad does all the math, we just put the Stylus to the pad.


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Pounds, Shillings and Ounces?

Stone? How many stone are you?

Can you fathom fathom? Samuel Clemens could.

How about the venerable Danish inch (2.61cm as opposed to 2.54cm for our system)

nautical mile

There are about as many different measuring systems as there are cultures. Probably more.

It doesn't matter what you call it, if you measure once and cut twice it's still gonna be too short!


----------



## Sanman (Dec 12, 2011)

LOL, do you cut the line or leave the line? What's the width of your line?


----------



## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Ahhhhh, yes.

Precision (and/or accuracy) in woodworking.

I'm gonna' make popcorn-353.226 GRAMS of popcorn, to be exact


----------



## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

It's not that hard to use metric and English because it is easy to convert back and forth. Sometimes being accurate to 1/64 is appropriate and other times being accurate to 1/32 is appropriate and there are occasions where you need to use thousandths of an inch. Metric has a lot of advantages but so does the English system. Why not learn it all and use whichever one suits at a given time.

helluvawreck

https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Wow cr1, you ressurrected a nearly five year old thread! (Bored lately?)

Somehow this thread got hijacked to a conversation about metrics, when it started out as a question about working in thousanths of inches.

When I set up my first CNC machine there was a bug in the CAM software with a setting for the minimum resolution. The options were Imperical to 1/64", Thousanths to 0.001" and Metric to 0.1mm.
If you set the minimum resolution to 1/64" and attempted to drill adjustable shelf holes every 32mm, they would never align properly from the left panel to the right due to rounding errors.

No one wanted to work in metric, so the answer was to work in thousanths. The software eventually was fixed, but working in thousanths really improved the quality of the jobs. We had to account for tolerances of the materials and even thicknesses of the adhesives, but it was all accounted for. The typical "creep" in a run of cabinets was virtually eliminated because panel sizes were acurate and rounding errors ceased. Melamine was 0.762 instead of 3/4". That 0.012 times two end panels per cabinet times the number of cabinets in a run could add up significantly. Flush inset cabinetry became easier as a result too, since the fit and finish was well within acceptable tolerances.

The end result was that building the cabinets became easier as the errors were eliminated. The quality was also at an all time high at the same time. Turned out to be a good thing.

Aim small, miss small.


----------



## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

And then there was the famous "Whitworth" british system. Wow! That was a real brain twister.
I do metals in decimals, woodworking in fractions, food in pounds, and fuel in gallons. Having said that, I used a go-no go metric caliper when turning. Talk about a mixed up shop….............
Bill


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

cr1: 'Twas not a commentary on the validity of the topic or thread, just, that it seems to me it would take a lot of time/effort to re-discover it after such a long time buried amid the 1 million+ postings on here.


----------



## saucer (May 1, 2010)

At the end of the day does it really matter which system you use as long as you are happy with it… Life is to short..


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

At work, English units, mechanical engineering hasn't changed much. Some of our stuff is to single digit tenths of a thousandth. Wood working, it all depends. As has been stated, in a lot of cases, 1/32 is good enough. On things like boxes with sliding lids, I measure and sneak up on the slider size. No point in staring at a scale for a single part. But when you've got a lot of pieces to make, get the numbers right, make a jig and then feed in the stock. That might take thousandths in the set up.


----------



## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

Well, If you have a series of holes, or dadoes, or whatever, to put in a long board, being "off" by 1/32" on each one will stack up pretty quickly so the overall dimension from the 1st one to the last one could create problems.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Did Cr1 just use angstrom in a sentence, lol?  I think that if I was measuring things in thousandths, I'd probably switch to that silly metric system If you've got a machinist mentality, you'd cringe in my shop. I've got vintage tools that will get me "close". If you've got the kind of mind that is rewarded for these kinds of tolerances, then by all means go for it! I can totally relate to how that would be very personally rewarding to an engineering type. To be honest, I'm surprised I can put aside my analytical side to just enjoy my sloppy woodworking
.
All that rambling aside, I think that whatever gives you the most personal satisfaction in the shop, that's the methods to strive for. Good luck!


----------



## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

I use thousands because that's what my dial caliper reads in. 

Oh, and my scales, tape measure and most of my other measuring tools also reads in decimal.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Gary, my manual Vernier measures in inches and it makes my brain hurt. I think I'd need an Elmo with a digital readout before I could embrace the thousandth, lol


----------



## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

There is a blurb in the appliance industry (Father was an engineer for about 38 years)- blueprints have the instructions in fine print: Hammer to Fit, Paint to Match. With that, never mind tolerances.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

didn´t you ask for thousands of a mm 
I just ordred a stone that I was promissed to be in 2 thousand of a MM over the intire lenght (1 meter) acurate I think thats flat enoff …. to be used as a sharpening base … 

but as a handtool user its easy just to introduce the workpiece to the wood or use story stick 
you don´t make 20 of the same cut right after each other or planing them as you do if your shop
is setup with electronkillerdevices

Dennis


----------



## jm82435 (Feb 26, 2008)

me


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

This debate about the virtues and downfalls between the Metric System and other "Odd Ball" systems is a continual joke as far as I am concerned. For heavens sake, the Metric System is the only way to go and we will then be in step with the rest of the world (except Liberia), we will all be "talking the same language".
The Imperial System's units came from dubious origins, the length of a shoe, distance from nose to outstretched fingertip, etc., and a multitude of units with a certain category; inches, poles, perch, fathom, league, grain, stone, hundredweight, gill, hogshead, tun, furlong, chain, troy ounce, ounce, Rod, ........ and so many more idiotic ancient units. Even in the Imperial System there are units that are different; Ton = 2000lbs: Ton =2240 lbs (these are called long tons and short tons), Barrel of liquid=44gallons:Barrel of liquid-40 gallons -

With the Metric System there is ONE concise unit of measurement in each category, to which, you can add, subtract, multiply or divide by 10 to increase or decrease the unit's value …....... what could be simpler?????

You will note the the "Legal" system of weights and measures in the USA *IS* the Metric System, so why don't we use it?


> ?


?
Maybe woodworking lends itself to lessor degrees of required accuracy and old fashioned units can be used - (although it's a while since I saw "cubits" used) but I am sure the future is Metric.

Admission: Yes I do use BOTH systems mainly because products in the US are still produced in antique units of measurement, but I get to thinking, who ever else in the world would want to purchase something overseas that is not compatible with their measurement system?????


----------



## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Regarding metric: a millimeter is too big, 1/10 millimeter is too small. So you use fractions of millimeters which is supposed to be avoided with the metric system.

Regarding decimals: If I build something 11½" it doesn't become more accurate if I call it 11.5000". Building accurately to any dimension means building accurately, not using the correct measurement system.


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Roger, just a point of inquiry, if the Imperial system came from 'dubious origins', then you are saying that the metric system came from divine sources?

--- Just askin'


----------



## cooperedpatterns (Sep 27, 2008)

This thread has really hit a musical not with LJs If we all step back and evaluate our environment we use many diffrent measuring systems for temperature theres mabe 5+ diffrent scales of measuring, for measuring distance we use 5+ different scales, for time luckily we use only 2+ but there might be more, for electronics and electricity there is 4+ or more, for weight ?I don't know, then we have degrees there are several measuring systems for that (? then you ask is 0 degrees vertical or horizontal). No matter what system you use if you do not understand it, you will not be able to use it to full advantage. In conclusion use what ever is comfortable for you, There is nothing wrong with being as precise or accurate as possible, if it requires that you learn a new measuring system, learn it, your performance will change for the best.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

Dallas … is it now I light the candle and ask upstairs …. ,-P
I´m not sure the boss will let me sleep indoors the next week if I ask her that question :-(


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Roger, I resist your silly metric system, with common sensical units and all. The fact that it's based on exponentials and easily mathmatically manipulated. Silliness!!!  I like Texas units…ounces. As in 60 oz porterhouse.


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I will have to say that above there was a statement about the Australian pints being 20 oz. No so in the USA. 16 here. I almost like the Texas myself since I only live 60 *MILES* from the border. Yep, *MILES*. The advantage of using the decimal system is it breaks the measurements downs smaller than 1/16ths of an inch. Many tape measures stop there. Some go to 1/32nds. 1/64 of an inch is difficult to read when it is painted on a rule in mass production. The metric has the same problem. It is down to millimeters and pretty well stops there. It is easy to convert but for those that are well versed in math inches are easily broken down into thousandths. 
I have an Industrial Arts major. In those studies I once heard a couple of our instructors talking about the students they worked with. They said you could tell the students that took the woodworking courses first and those that took the machine shop classes first. Then the machine shop students went into the wood shop they were still trying to hold their cuts to a plus/minus .002". This is impossible in the wood shop so don't jump on me and tell me you do it daily. I do occasionally and I will tell you it is pure accident when it happens and I never know it. The woodworkers go to the machine shop and say that is less than 1/32" so it will work. I have found later in life that the really good finish carpenters were once machinists. We have a lot of machine shops in my part of the world. The people that began as framing carpenters and try to do finish work need 5/8" caulk when they finish. I like .001" measurements and think if the rest of the world want to buy quality they will learn it. Just takes a little math and memorization. I can work the metric too but I find that often the tolerances held by those people is not as good.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

The BOB makes complete sense to me. That, Pete, is an Excellent Post. Until it catches on, though, it's only imperial to the 16th for this hobbiest. And that's when I have to measure something / collect dimensions.


----------



## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Grandpa,

"I can work the metric too but I find that often the tolerances held by *those *people is not as good."

do you refer to the metric people or to the people brought up as carpenters?

If it is about metric people, I can not understand such a statement.
There is no such a thing as one tolerance fits all.
Tolerances must be adapted to the function, reliability of the system, target production price, etc

for those unfamiliar with the notion of tolerance see :
http://www.mitcalc.com/doc/tolerances/help/en/tolerancestxt.htm

For those of you that have learn to use the imperial system it must be a great fun. 
As far as I am concerned, I have a clear mental picture of 1/2 or 1/4; 
1/8 is quite difficult [except for an apple pie…where I prefer 1/6 ;-)) ]
and I have no idea what would be 1/16, 1/32 or 1/64 of any length being it one inch, one foot, one meter or my own arm.


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

the metric system at least in the US stops with a mm. .001" is 1/4 the thickness of a sheet of copy paper. No we don't measure .001 with a Stanley tape measure. The decimal system is easy to use with inches and is just as easy as the metric system. Why are you wanting us to duplicate something we already have that is just as good if not better. When I went to Canada a few years ago I found that they still converted everything to inches and feet in Western Canada.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dallas:
The metre (meter in the US), symbol m, is the base unit of length in the International System of Units (SI). Originally intended to be one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole (at sea level), its definition has been periodically refined to reflect growing knowledge of metrology. Since 1983, it is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum in 1 ⁄ 299,792,458 of a second.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Bertha, Al, your resistance is futile, you will be Metricated.*


----------



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Use imperial, use metric, use a mark on a bit of wood. There is no right or wrong. One thing that is clever about the metric system is it's all based on water - a ton of pure water has a volume of 1 cubic metre, 1,000,000 grams in a tone, 1,000,000 cubic centimetres in a cubic metre, etc, etc. (unless my science teacher lied). Just thought I'd throw that out there to anyone who is interested.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

The metre (meter) is the only unit of length in the metric systems. mm = millimeter, um= micrometre. Now you see why the US spelling of metre - meter only causes problems because "meter" describes and instrument.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

cr1:
Yeah and attorneys are a dime a dozen …...........oops that should be a dime (10 cents) for 10 in Metric …..... Hey just think you're more valuable in Metric.


----------



## The_Dude (Feb 2, 2011)

renners

You have that backwards. Take a cubic meter and fill it with water and you have a ton.

Roger Clark aka Rex has it correct about the basic measurement unit in the metric system. It was first used in France before 1800. But a meter back then and now are different and has been changes more then once over time. One day they might even nail it down and not change it anymore. Until then a meter is what they say it is.


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Roger, That still makes the metric system an approximation. Sea level isn't the same from sea to shining sea. The earth isn't the same size in any given direction at any given time, (just like wood swells and shrinks).

Until you have a base line that is immutable, you have no basis to say that one is better or worse than another

So, the bottom line is that the metric system, like the imperial system is a construct of the imagination.


----------



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

Holy crap - I just realized all this is "debating" is over a post I did ~ 1800 days ago? - I can't even remember what I had for breakfast, but I think all I was saying is that I try and be as precise as I can. Especially for a big project….start square, finish square… Seems like there was some Mortise & Tenon involved and the perfect fit came in an epiphany - 
Schroeder


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dallas,
Actually the Foot was the length of a Roman Soldiers foot sandal and the yard was the distance from the Kings nose to his outstretched arm's fingertip. In both cases it depended on whose body the measurements were taken from.


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Roger, I agree completely. Any and all systems of measurement, or numbers for that matter, are nothing more than a convenient method of expressing a value


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dallas, the whole point really is that the metric system is easier to learn and use, the description words are chosen carefully so as not to be ever misconstrued e.g. *Metre*/Meter, point/dot/*comma*. The system is meant to be rational and standardized to make life easier, more efficient and accurate. Once you have learned the Metric System you will understand how archaic the Imperial/Standard System really is.
I went through the change in England around 1970 and today folks younger than me only use the Metric system there. Heck we have been using it partially here for years …....35mm film, 1Ltr drinks, milligrams of meds, millilitres of meds ….even our money is metric ….etc., so why not go all the way? and be inline with every other country in the world - except Liberia?

For some reason there seems to be a fear factor among the populous about progress, when you think we should be on top of it all.


----------



## The_Dude (Feb 2, 2011)

1 inch or 25.4 mm are the same thing.

As long as you use what you are used to, one way is exactly as good as the other.

That said , I kind of prefer a metric hammer, but I also like an imperial slotted screwdriver.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Most folks here won't budge an inch, but other folks in the world won't budge a mm.


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I have no problem using the metric system, and will do so as the need arises. I also have no problem using the imperial system and do use it as the need arises.
My point is that your assertion, *The system is meant to be rational and standardized to make life easier, more efficient and accurate*, is a fallacy. 
Both systems are equally accurate and both are equally inaccurate because both stem from some arbitrary point that cannot be defined with accuracy. 
Using the argument that it must be better because the rest of the world uses it is an empty argument. By that argument, because more people live in hoses built from wood, all the people that live in geodesic domes must be wrong.


----------



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Roger sez: " *Since 1983, it is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum in 1 ⁄ 299,792,458 of a second.* " 
Does anybody really care how fast light travels in a vacuum? I mean, with all the dust and dirt swirling around inside, is it necessary to see what's going on inside one? Does light travel faster in a Dyson Ball?


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Ah well, Dallas the bottom line is that it would be much more preferable if everyone used the same system, but I guess that would go against the me, me ,me system 
It does not matter a Tinker's Cuss what we personally use for measuring, but for world trade, industries and Medicine it does matter.
Most people here live in houses built with 2×4's, but they don't measure 2"x4" do they?, but if you go purchase something like a cedar 2×4, it measures 2"x4"


> ?


 Confusing???

More confusion? I just went into the kitchen and picked up a box of cereal, at the bottom of the box it reads (verbatim) NET WT. 20 OZ. (1LB.4OZ.) (567g) .......3 different units!!!!
Usually STANDARD metric packs are 150g, 250g, 500g, 750g and 1Kg ….......simple. Not a fallacy.


----------



## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Metric is coming!
Metric is coming!


----------



## Chipy (Apr 20, 2011)

I have on a few occasions for got my tape and only realized it when I got to a job site.I have installed a whole sets of cabinets with dead reckoning and story sticks.So I think in a pinch you can get by without English or Metric!


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have no arguement against using metric. It's fine if you grew up using it all your life. Like language, Imperial is my native tongue. You can learn another language (metric), but how fluent do you think you would become? I grew up using it and have all the decimal equivalents in my head. I don't have to consult a chart. You can do this if you grew up with it. I can also work in metrics, but can't visualize a metric distance. I always have to convert it to Imperial so I can visualize it. Try this to see what I mean: Without using a scale, draw a line on paper 1/2" (.500") long and draw a line 13mm long. Now measure it with a scale and see how close you came.
As for working wood in the Imperial system, I do it all the time. I'm also a machinist, so the decimal system is second nature. All my tools are Imperial and very expensive. I'm not about to go out and buy metric tools.
When I work wood; if it is soft wood, I work no closer than a 1/32". For hard woods, I use decimals. In fact, I machine hard woods on my metalworking machines. I know wood will change dimensionally with humidity, but if I work in thousands, the difference is much smaller than if I were working in fractions.
It all boils down to whatever you are comfortable with is what you should be using.


----------



## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Dallas,

The (metric) international system *is* rational.

1) you don't need to use "arbitrary" factors to give relationship between physical entities
(the factor is always 1 or justified by theory like the number pi )

(force) 1 Newton = 1 kg X 1 m/ s²
(energy) 1 Joule = 1Newton X 1m
(power) 1 Watt = 1Joule/ 1 s = 1 Volt X 1A
(pressure) 1Pascal = 1 Newton/ 1 m²

and so on.

what is the relation between 1 lbf, 1 ounce, 1foot and 1 s²?

What is the relation between 1 HP, 1 BTU and 1 s?

2) the decimal system avoids the introduction of other factors like 12 or 20

3) You could have constructed a rational system starting from another arbitrary length, like the ft,
but it has not been done.

Now it is too late; the world is metric.

I understand it is always difficult to change.
In 2001 we had to abandon our old Belgian franc for the Euro [1 EUR= 40.3399 BEF]; I still convert from time to time, especially for big amounts. I must confess I only use 40 to have an idea of the amount. Although those 0.3399 can be quite significant when multiplied by a big number.


----------



## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I live and work in the United States. Imperial (SAE) measurements are used extensively still to this day in most industries. The migration to metric has been slow and tedious, but is getting there. Most of my measuing and marking devices measure in both Imperial and Metric sizes. I am fair enough with math that I convert decimal to fractional in my head so no worries, there. Mind you, I don't bother with any increment smaller than .015625" as wood movement within a piece makes worrying about much smaller pointless. Now mind you, that number you see above, is just a tiny bit over 15 thousandths of an inch. Or in other terms, 1/64"...


----------



## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Sylvain, I think you misunderstand my point.

I don't have a problem with metrics, I also don't have a problem with imperial measurement, or for that matter imperial gallons as opposed to US gallons. I use to use Metric/Imperial almost everyday of the week working on diesel engines in boats, trucks, buses, generators, compressors and other industrial equipment.

My point is that no mater what form of measurement you use, whether it's base 10, base 12, base 37, or base 9, the beginning of each is arbitrary.

As far as I can tell the only real beginning of any measurement system is base 2.

With base 2 you can have a zero (0) or a one (1). Either you have a complete circuit (1) or you don't (0). On (1) or off (0). Light (1) or dark (0). Distance (1) No Distance (0).

I'm not a mathematician but I have a degree in computer science and from that bit of learning have learned that everything can be described in base 2. From weight to length to volume to force to music to DNA to any other human idea.
Every other base is an adaptation of base 2. Every system of measurement, (as far as I know), can be described in base 2.

So, with all the previous arguments, mine, yours, and others included, it all boils down to the only way to describe an idea accurately would be in base 2.

Is metric easier to use? In my opinion, yes… in some cases. The same with the Imperial system, or with the Danish or Finnish system or the Roman system. 
Some systems describe an idea better than others. Others are cumbersome. 
Take Avoirdupois …. 16 ounces to the pound. Then there is Troy…. 12 ounces to the pound.
Each thought their method was the best, most have gone by the wayside when something different came along. Different cultures, different times, different needs.

We can go on and on about the advantages or disadvantages of each for a particular measurement, but unless we all agree on a lowest common denominator, we will all be wrong by just a smidge.

By the way, Imperial measurement and US measurement are not exactly the same. The US system is set up from the English system of measurement pre 1824. the Imperial system of measurement is set up from post 1959.


----------



## BigYin (Oct 14, 2011)

And I still use furlongs (220 yards). Chains (22 yards). Rods (5 1/2 yards) as measurements of distance,
I use letter and number size drills (because I have some). 
Weights of people and large animals are in stones (14 pounds to the stone) becuse I am English.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi BigYin,

Wow, you gotta be an Olde English Geordie - with a good memory. Ever used a Perch? 
Cheers mate


----------



## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I see it both ways. Being 4-5 thousands off on the thickness of a tenon can affect the fit.
Yet it annoys me when router companies advertise "accurate to 1/128". You can only be hat accurate if you can see it. 
The one place I believe all woodworkers should use a feeler gauge, and be withing 1-2 thousands is setting up the jointer. The smallest error here is multiplied over multiple passes. But the feeler gauge solves that problem.


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

They were telling me that everything was eventually going to be converted to metric soon when I was in grade school 28 or so years ago…. They told me in my science classes in middle school that at the rate people were polluting the environment, the earth would be dead in FIVE years… This was ummm 20 some odd years ago.
In Pre-calculus, they taught me that the teachers before them had all lied, and in fact you can divide 0 (nothing for you old timers)

Teachers don't always tell the truth, or are not educated to it.

We'll go on using what we use because way too many people use it, I mean a 100 meter football game?
How many Kilometer signs do you see them putting up with that nice new roadwork? Are they renumbering the state/county roads in your area to reflect what kilometer rather than what mile marker they are at?

Nope, it ain't happening sorry guys. Oh, and in case you missed it, the earth ain't dead yet either.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I use metric at work. To resist feeling like I'm "working", I use inches at home 
Roger, do English blokes make locker room jokes in centimeters? Or in my case, meters.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Al, I don't know much about locker room jokes in England, but I imagine a great deal of pride can be had when mentioning your's is 150 and not 6. if you get my meaning?


----------



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

milimeters? huh I didn't say that

They can make fun of our measuring system in England all they want, we got it from them in the first place.
At least our monetary system makes sense :X.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^lol, 0.30 meters is more my speed, Rog. Roger doesn't know about locker room humor in England. Right. And I'm Margaret Thatcher


----------



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Roger, don't you mean 225?


----------



## BigYin (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi Roger
40 poles = 1 furlong
4 poles = 1 chain
5.5 yards = 1 pole
1 rod = 1 pole = 1 perch


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi there "Iron Laddie"


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

renners:
There ya go …....bragging again.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

BigYin,

And they all lived very happily, a long time ago….......The End. 

What about a tun and a hogshead?... every self respecting Geordiee, uses Newcastle Brown.


----------



## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

I've always wondered if, in Toronto, they say:

"Baseball. It's a game of centimeters".


----------



## BigYin (Oct 14, 2011)

Roger
Hey Tex, Howdya know so much about Geordies, even if this one drinks Malt scotch not neukie brown.

pin = 4.5 gallons = 1 pin
firkin = 9 gallons = 2 pins = 1 firkin
kilderkin = 18 gallons = 2 firkins = 1 kilderkin
barrel = 36 gallons = 2 kilderkins = 1 barrel
puncheon = 72 gallons = 2 barrels = 1 puncheon
tun = 216 gallons = 3 puncheons = 1 tun
hogshead = 54 gallons = 6 firkins = 1 hogshead
butt = 108 gallons = 2 hogshead = 1 butt
2 butts = 1 ton (or tun)


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

6 Newcastle browns = 1 Roger
6 Sam Smith's Old Taddy Porters = 1 Bertha


----------



## jeth (Aug 18, 2010)

ooh, why did you have to bring up Samuel Smiths… now i could murder a proper beer


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Well BigYin, you certainly knows your booze measurements . but what else would you expect from a Geordie.

FYI: I was born in Hertfordshire and raised in Essex and Suffolk, so I'm a Brit marooned in Texas since 1977.
Don't know an awful lot about "northerners" , but I know Geordies are argumentative buggers with a few New Castle Browns inside them.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

jeth,
Want me to send you a pint or a Liter?


----------



## dannelson (Nov 28, 2011)

I take it that no one prior to my post has a cnc. we work in thousandths alot hundredths is more like it though.


----------



## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Jeth, that was an aweful thing I did. You know what's worse?










Making you look at an oatmeal stout!!!! That's just not fair. I went to the Sam Smith's brewery and had a "museum ale"; possibly the best ever. While I'm hurting your feelings:


----------



## BigYin (Oct 14, 2011)

Roger
Argumentative ? who ? US ??
I suppose it comes from us always being right and having to explain to others why they are wrong,
Hey Ho, its a cross we have to bear….


----------



## Kelby (Oct 19, 2011)

I went the opposite direction of most: I grew up using the metric system, and went to Imperial when I moved (back) to the states in my late teens. I prefer Imperial for the things I need to measure.

1) You have to begin by recognizing that BOTH systems are based on arbitrary measurements that, in all likelihood, have no connection to anything you will ever use. Roger, you are correct that the yard derived from something like someone's armspan, which is useless to us. But the meter's correlation to the diameter of the earth is equally irrelevant to anything you or I will ever measure. Unless you're a physicist or geologist (or the guy whose armspan started it all), both systems start with a distance/weight/volume that has no connection to anything most of us will ever measure.

2) Having grown up with the metric system, and having kids grow up with the Imperial system, I can tell you with certainty that neither is more difficult to learn than the other. Yes, multiplying and divding by ten is easier. But we spent a lot of time in school learning the difference between kilo, deci, milli, micro, nano, pico, etc. It's really not any more difficult to remember that there are 12 inches in a yard and 16 ounces in a pound. It takes about the same amount of effort for kids to learn either one.

3) The only meaningful difference between the systems in the real world is whether you prefer to (a) easily be able multiply and divide by 10, but not so much other numbers that aren't multiples of 10, or (b) easily be able to multiply and divide by 2 and 3, but not so much other numbers that aren't multiples of 2 and 3.
The answer to that question depends on what you do. If you sit in a lab, or you're dealing with extremely precise measurements, or you're dealing with things that are really huge or really tiny, then 10 makes more sense. Scientists and accountants love 10. But there are many other settings where it is much more important to cut things in half, or in thirds, or in quarters. In construction and architecture, those divisions have much more meaning than tenths. And it is much easier to make those divisions if you deal in units that are divisible by 12 than if you are dealing in units that divide by 10.

In woodworking, we have both. When I design a table or an armoire, I need to multiply by 2, 3, and 4 (never by 10). When I cut mortises and tenons, I need very precise measurements. For me, what works well is to use the imperial system and use fractions when my tolerances are within 1/32 of an inch or so, but decimals and thousandths of an inch when my tolerances need to be tighter than that (eg., joints).

If your work is more conducive to the metric system, good for you. But for woodworking, it's nice to have a system in which it is easy to keep dividing by 2.


----------



## jeth (Aug 18, 2010)

Al, don't worry man, you weren't to know.. One of the disadvantages of being another "ex pat" ..I sure do miss my ale  But then, mango season is on it's way and I can get "exotic" (exotic once it leaves here anyway) hardwoods at about 50 cents a BF, not all bad! Corona just isn't the samehough TBH Negra Modelo or Bohemia aren't bad tipples, a bit fizzy like…

Roger, make it a keg at least, not really worth the bother otherwise.

Either of you ever sampled Theakstons Old Peculiar, now that's a killer ale! (Or porter to be precise) First thing I thought of when I saw that Sam Smiths Oatmeal, so dark, mmmm….


----------



## Chipy (Apr 20, 2011)

Bertha please Stop with the REAL beer pics, drool,drool,I love that Sam Smith's and the Sierra Nevada, drip, drool drool ,drip! AWE dang it now I shor t ed ou t my key Bo ard!!!


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The question of metric vs imperial is really a question of marketing in the U.S. We cater to people from all over the world by putting metric measurements on all our products. This is done to attract the buyer who uses metrics as a first language. You won't see imperial measurements on products anywhere else on the earth.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

MrRon, I believe the only other country that still uses the old Imperial System is Liberia. Do you think we can earn a lot by making Liberia "most favored nation" for exports? ............ me neither.


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

MrRon, but having said that, Liberia does use an awful amount of 7.62mm stuff.


----------



## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

its becourse its so good to straighten stuff with …. you better duck … Roger … LOL


----------



## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

Furlongs in a fortnight. I love it. I also like it when I buy half inch plywood and it tells me it is 7/16 inch formerly 1/2 inch. Makes me wonder why we bother with anything


----------



## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

It's threads like this one that is one of the many reasons why I stay on LJ's, and why my wife laughs at me. 
Having grown up using the metric system, I think it is far easier to use a base 10 system for any scientific measurements or calculations. For ww though, fractions are a lot easier than trying to squint and count millimeters…


----------



## tom427cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Years ago when I was starting out working with wood I worked for an outfit that produced reproduction Queen Anne chairs. And oh how I laughed(to myself) when all of their measurements were in thousands of an inch. Fast forward 10-15 years and the trusty tape measure just wasn't quite accurate enough. Today I use a tape when I have the opportunity to be a carpenter and do carpenter stuff. In the shop cutting and fitting pieces together my measuring device of choice is a dial caliper.For a number of years I produced small clocks.All the pieces were pre-finished and final assembly was done in one step.22 pieces and the tolerances were +0 and -.005.These pieces were all exoctics-no softwoods. The end result was twofold first I found that in time my set-up time was almost the same and secondly and most important there were no gaps in any of the joints. 
I suppose if .015"- 1/64" is an acceptable tolerance then I should by more stock in Plastic Wood Filler.(lol)
Whether it is rods,chainlenghts,inches,feet,kilos,or nanometers IMO it makes no difference as long as you are comfortable with the system you use.
Just my .02
tom


----------



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Tom, I fully agree that individuals should use whatever type of measurements they feel comfortable with, but as a nation I believe we need to embrace the metric system, it's the future.


----------



## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

The answer to your question : Me …simply because thats the way I have always done it.


----------



## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

...or you could use a chain = 66 feet or 22 yards or 100 links (see the metric creeping in here?) and there are 10 chains in a furlong and 80 chains in a mile. An acre of British countryside is measured in 10 square chains… are you still awake..?


----------



## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

This kind of reminds me of Military Precision. You measure with a micrometer (calibrated in thousandths of course), mark with a crayon, and then cut it with the axe. It makes operfect sense to the military mind.


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I am curious, since the OP, (Schroeder), checked back in to this thread, if he TODAY uses fractions of inches, thousanths of Inches, or Metric.

Surely he's had time to make his choice and put something into practice for the last five years.

What system are you currently using Schroeder? Did you change since the original post? And why?


----------



## schroeder (Feb 8, 2007)

fractions for quick measure….thousandths when I measure for a fit - M&T, bread board, shoulders, etc… It's just become second nature now - just easier math for me. But even when I measure in fractions I think in thousandths - I measure an 1/8 I think "'okay thats 125 thousandths" though, really I don't get to excited about any set method to tell you the truth…hell, a lota times i measure by "feel"

Schroeder


----------



## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

I rember a drawing of John Browning, working in his shop in Utah. He was demonstrating a dimension that he wanted to a worker by using his first finger and thumb. The worker was shown inserting a caliper between the thumb and forefinger. Some people, perhaps few, are inately precise.


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

For those of you who are challenged by thousands of an inch, you can get digital calipers that read in fractional units. Much easier than trying to mark off 64's from a scale rule.


----------



## startreking (Jan 4, 2012)

Today I used my caliper to square up my fence, Holy crap the natural position of rear end is 1/4 off. No wonder I couldn't make a straight cut to save my life so to speak. At this point I'm happy with being .02 off on my measurements. I suspect when I sand the daylights out of them they should be almost spot on the mark. I can no longer feel the difference when I stack "identical" pieces. So hopefully no more 1/8" off anymore.


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

why?

because they like loose joints?

I had a timber framer help me with my house and he undersized all of his mortices, while I cut mine to exactly match the tennons.

After 12 years, guess whose joints are too tight to too slip in a piece of paper and whose make nice condominiums for spiders?

I think that some guys (often with machinist type experience) who attempt to "machine" wood to .001" show a lack of appreciation for the old craftsman's addage "wood moves"

Others just find adding and subtracting decimel easier than fractions… which is fine, as long as you realize how the limitaions of your equipment affect the significance of those three and four place decimals.


----------



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Well, I measured to the thousandths as I set my shop-built horizontal mortising machine to do long dados and rabbits.

In doing so:

++ I found out quickly that I had to adjust the T-Track sliders to make them run parallel during the long slide in front of the router bit.

++ Thousandths made it easier for me to center my 1/4in dados in my 3/4in frame stock.

++ I learned that my router lilt/adjuster will NEVER be trusted without running "test" scrap first.

++ I learned that dados (1/4in bit this time) themselves will vary in width all DEPENDING on how fast/deep you feed your horizontal mortiser. Slower is much more accurate.

YES, all wood moves over time. IMO, measuring to the thousandths saves time and accuracy during WW machine setup. Changes in humidity will mess with you regardless… ;-)


----------



## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

The tolerance on a Komo Innova or Mach I machine is +/- 0.0001" (One ten thousanth of an inch). They have an entire science for material tolerances that goes into each machine they make. Onsrud, SCMI and others have similar programs. A plywood or Melamine part toterance of 5 thousanths is 50 times looser than one of those machines is capable of, so why not get acurate parts that fit if you're using one of those machines?

Assembly is a breeze when everything fits right. After I set up that first machine, there was no more need to ever adjust a drawer guide-they just fit right everytime after that. (I was little upset when Blum Tandems got the rear adjuster because it introduced the potential for an error that I previously didn't have.)


----------



## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm not the most experienced guy in the shop, yet I know that setting up a machine to .001" and cutting a part to .001 are two different cats.

Even the slightest tear, fuzz or hairy edge, relief of internal stress, slipping in the fixture, etc… will put the part off (unpredictably) by several thousandths.

I deal with fractional and decimal all day long at work and am comfortable with either in the shop (I've long ago memorized the decimal equivalents of fractions down to the 1/16). But measuring with a caliper to three digits, or dialing in a DRO to three digits, does not imply cutting a part to the same precision.

None the less…. working in thousandths does act to "magnify the power of your glasses" and put you into a more precise world…. allowing the potential for tighter tolerances.


----------

