# sub panel questions



## CudaDude (Jan 30, 2012)

Hope I put this in the right section. My FIL pretty much wired this in for me. He's an old school electrician and may not be up to code. I've got 3 wires coming from the main panel (black, red, white). I'm trying to figure out the white and ground. The white comes from the main panel neutral buss and goes to what you see in the pic and that's all. Does this provide ground also?

Another question is outlets that I install in the garage. If the sub panel is correct where do I put the neutral and ground going to the wall outlets?

BTW the small white is going out to a 220v

Specifics: Installed last Dec. 60a breaker at the main service panel going to the sub which has 4 slots for breakers but he told me to get the thin breakers so I could have up to 8 circuits, 2 of which are dedicated to the 220. No ground rods and from what I've gathered browsing the web there's no ground from the main panel either.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Gary, Your ground and neutral need to be separate beyond the main panel. A ground needs to come from there to a ground buss attached to the panel. The neutral buss needs to have the copper bonding jumper attached to the panel removed. You should have the installation inspected.

In the sub-panel, the outlets neutral and ground go to separate places. To the same in the main panel.

That small white wire on the neutral buss has to go to 110. It can't be 220.

Good luck.


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## 1yeldud1 (Jan 26, 2010)

I believe you are to have a ground rod where the wire comes off the city's pole and another one at the meter base. My next door neighbor lost their brick house to an electrical fire that originated in the wiring between the main panel and the sub panel - only a 16 inch run of wire but it cost them a $100,000.00 house - are the black and red wire coming off a breaker in the main box or are the wired directly into where the main lug wires connect to the main breaker box - please be careful


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## 1yeldud1 (Jan 26, 2010)

topamaxsurvivor am I correct as to the ground ?


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## bbrewer (Dec 28, 2012)

I think topamaxsurvivor is correct that subfeed panel needs to be grounded with a separate ground wire to the main panel the power comes from, not grounded separately.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Looks to me, and I have had a few beers, like the 3rd from the bottom is bonding ground to neutral.
Ground to neutral must only be bonded at one point, that is in the main box. 
It is not legal, (as far as I know), to bond ground and neutral anywhere else.


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## 1yeldud1 (Jan 26, 2010)

bbrewer -I was talking about the actual ground rods at the pole and the meter base - sorry for the confusion


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## CudaDude (Jan 30, 2012)

TopamaxSurvivor, This panel only has 1 buss. Do I need to add another buss that's directly attached to the panel, or should I get a different panel that has 2 separate busses(1 neut, 1 grnd.)? I'm positive that the small white gose to the ground screw on a 220 outlet.

1yeldud1, Yes it's going to a 60a breaker in the main panel.


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## CudaDude (Jan 30, 2012)

FWIW the neutral and ground are at separate busses in the main panel. That means they're NOT bonded, correct?

Out of curiosity. Is this setup wrong, or just not to current code? Reason being is, I am down to the wire on a Birthday gift I need to get built for my daughter and I need to get power to some outlets I installed. Can I temporarily leave it as is?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*CudaDude,*You need to have a buss like this attached to the panel with machine screws, not sheet metal screws. When you remove the bonding jumper, the existing neutral buss will be isolated form ground.

*1yeldud1* Probably, depending on where you are. In WA, the power company has a ground rod at the pole. The main panel has 2 at least 6 feet apart.

Ground and neutral are always separate after being bonded at the main service panel or disconnect.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

CudaDude, The neutral and ground are supposed to be bonded at the service disconnect. Sounds like you may have another location outside that panel or they just look separate to you.

The sub-panel is not to code and therefore not correct.

You should get an electrician to verify the installation and make corrections as necessary.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

BTW, your main panel may have a ground buss separate form the neutrals. If the bonding is correct, that may be legal in the main panel.

Nothing in this life is simple! Especially electricity ;-)


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## CudaDude (Jan 30, 2012)

TopamaxSurvivor, I took another look at the main panel and the neut and grd are bonded there. This was a very cheap sub panel, probably why it only has one buss. Thanks so much for the info.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Lots of the small panels require adding a grounding kit if used as a subpanel. UR Welcome. ;-)


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

I have a sub panel in my shop and I wired it myself according to NEC. Ground and Neutral go back to the main panel. In the sub panel ground bar and neutral bar are not connected, but there is a ground rod dedicated for my shop. I had mine inspected and it passed all inspection. If you have any doubt get an electrician. Generally, you also need a permit for this type of work,


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh yeah Survivor is right. You have to purchase the ground kit separately for the subpanel. I recall doing that now. Please be careful when wiring ground/neutral. Your life may depend on it…


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Topamax is right on with this sh!t.

Latest NEC specs 4-wire from the main panel for any sub-panel.: 2 hots, Neutral and GND. Neutral is only tied to GND at the main panel. You have to run separate bus-bars for neutral and GND at the sub-panel.

Now, as for using it the way it is: up until about 2011, this was allowed by the NEC (3-wire out to subpanel, Neutral bonded to GND but you must have a solid GND at subpanel - drive a GND stake). Older installations are grandfathered in. So use it the way it is for now and change it when you get a chance.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Close EE, but…...... I believe you are thinking of sub panels in a *separate* building. There have been changes there, but it has been longer than that. I'm not sure when, but probably in the 90's. Sub panels in the *same* building have always had to have them separate. Darn keeps growing ;-( It is at least 2x what it was when I was an apprentice.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

I rewired my garage last summer - spent way too long with the 2011 NEC handbook looking at this. Near as I can tell, the separate wiring (2 hots, neutral and a separate GND) applies for a sub-panel no matter whether a detached building or not. The only place they want Neutral and GND bounded is at the main panel.

In a detached building, they get really anal about good earth GND. To the point where it just about requires a GND stake now.

My garage was detached so my comments may be tailored to that. As always, don't take my word for it - look at the NEC Handbook yourself. You can find the pdf to download on the Web. And, yeah, it is big! It gets bigger every time they release a new one!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is the way it it now. Big changes in the separate building grounding over the years. Every once in a while an inspector will comment about the way something is installed that they do not have the jurisdiction to write a correction. They aren't old enough to remember that was the code back then.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

I was required to have a separate ground rod for my detached garage. Did it myself with a fence post driver. 8 foot rod.


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## Holbs (Nov 4, 2012)

let me add in some of my experience (code or not).

i am 95% finished with my electrical remodel of a 2car attached garage. 
i installed a 60amp fuse at the main panel, ran 6/3 (red,black,white + bare ground) 20' to my sub-panel which resides inside the garage. you need 6/3 for 60amps. 
ONLY at the main service panel are the white & bare wires bonded together.
red/black goto sub panel center lugs. 
the white wire of the 6/3 goes to it's own bar that is NOT connected (or bonded) to anything else. 
the bare wire of the 6/3 goes to it's own bar that is NOT connected (or bonded) to anything else.
my square D homeline 100 amp service panel did not come with a 2nd bare wire bar (i had to buy separately).
i did not need a dedicated ground rod due to the main service panel and sub-panel being in the same structure already. however, if it was a detached garage, code around here (nationwide?) states to have it's own ground rod installed.
your 220v 20amp run: should be at least a 10/2. do not need a 10/3 as you will not have any 110v material being used on wood working machinery like you would with an oven clock or such. any higher amps, i think you should look into 8gauge or 6gauge (beyond my scope as i do not arc welding or anything over 20amps).
outlets in garage: for 110v circuits, the first outlet in a circuit in a garage setting MUST be GFCI. the #2 and downwind outlets can be standard on the same circuit. 220v do not need GFCI.

i pulled a permit to start this project. it has been inspected by fellow electricians and city inspector (which does not say much according to some posts i've read about relying on electrician friends or inspectors…but it will make my house insurance folk happy).

take a look at my sub-panel in my "Garage Remodel #5: 98% ready to call for 1st inspection" blog posting to see if any of that looks similar to what you have going on.

i am going thru the same procedure about installing my reznor udap natural gas heater. it's fun to play by the rules because you learn what to do and what not to do


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