# Bent the tool



## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

OK, question for you turnings here. Did you ever have a lathe gouge catch and bend? This happened to cheap HF tools, so I am hoping a decent HSS set would be better, and easier to sharpen. I haven't seen any other threads on line with bent tools. The lathe had a segmented block on it, that was somewhat rounded by a band saw, made up of cherry and beech. My wife intends to create a bowl with it. The speed was set to 1500, although the unit does have one slower speed of 950. Any advice?


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

Full Face Shield!!! ;^)

Being a newbie myself….
I'm pretty much useless, regarding this inquiry!!!

Glad your better half wasn't hurt!!!
She wasn't hurt, was she….
You failed to include that tidbit!!!

Oh, I just had a thought…..
What gouge was she using?
A "Spindle Roughing Gouge" has a very thin tang, when compared to a bowl gouge. That tang would be/is the weak link. A "Spindle Roughing Gouge", should NEVER be used for face plate/bowl turning.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

It is possible this is the problem: A "Spindle Roughing Gouge" has a very thin tang, when compared to a bowl gouge. That tang would be/is the weak link. A "Spindle Roughing Gouge", should NEVER be used for face plate/bowl turning.

I have a couple of cheaper brand chisels but never had any issues, but you could have had one that had a defect in the steel. Impressed with a demo soon after I got my lathe I started to buy, (one at a time at this price point) higher end chisels. They do work well but I have two sets of chisels mid grade and they have never given me issues.

Glad to hear the wife was not hurt.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks Randy. Nope, she wasn't hurt. She was wearing her full face shield … while I helped out by trying to get the thing round - without a face shield. It was a spindle gouge that I was using, which I guess is not the right tool. But I was only trying to round it, not carve out the inside. PSI has a set of Benjamin's Best bowl gouges. Would that be appropriate for turning the outside of the bowl blank? I'm also looking at the 8 piece set, but that would be back to the spindle tools. So many questions …


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Woodbutcher, they are definitely cheap tools. I purchased them to see how my wife would enjoy turning. She really likes it, so a good set will be a worthwhile investment. Thanks for the reply.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

I have the "Benjamin's Best" 8 piece set. It does come with one bowl gouge.
I haven't tried any bowl or face plate turning yet, so can't really offer any input.
You've heard it said….
The lathe is the inexpensive part of the turning addiction!!! ;^)

Remember, there is always Craigslist….


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Craig's List … about worthless around here, although I have gotten lucky a couple times. I'll take a close look at the 8 piece. I didn't realize it had a bowl gouge. I gave her one bowl gouge, a 3/8th Benjamin's Best, but we haven't used it. The tool needs to be cutting the end grain on the block, which I hope is OK.

Thanks for the feedback. Time to call it a night.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

The end grain is a tougher cut, just what the bowl gouge's larger tang is designed for.
The bowl gouge in the 8 piece set is different than the one sold seperately, but I don know that the "3/8" dimension is different.


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## JayCop (Sep 26, 2011)

Never use a spindle gouge or spindle roughing gouge on faceplate work. Use the slower speed for faceplate work no need to spin it at 1500rpm. Keep your tools sharp. When turning a bowl I often sharping a few times depending on the piece. I had purchased the set of Benjamin's myself and find them to be good.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks for the input JayCop. I definitely won't be using a spindle gouge for this again. I'll also slow it down further, although I can only go to 950.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

I checked the PSI website….
The 8 piece set comes with a 1/2" bowl gouge & it is on sale!!!
The one you have is the 3/8", so you won't end up with a duplicate.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

And it's been ordered as of a few minutes ago. Thanks Randy. I also ordered a 5/8ths gouge, just in case I run into a problem with the 1/2".

Now I have to make that jig to keep them sharp.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

Chris,
I've got a few links, that may come in handy.
If you want them, PM me your email and I'll send them to you.

??? Have you ordered the grinder yet?


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

I'll get my email right over to you. Thanks!

Grinder was ordered last night, HSS tools this morning, along with a pen kit. I'm waiting to ensure my wife has everything she needs before I order any more tools for myself. I think I'm getting close. It's pretty cool watching her enjoy the lathe.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Depending upon size of lathe & bowls you turn either a 3/8" or ½" bowl gouge is all you need. Would rather you buy two of the same size gouge and put a fingernail grind on one and side grind on the other.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LX210.html?prodpage=1LX

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LX220.html?prodpage=1LX

Easier to learn technique with one gouge regardless of type grind on it than three different sizes.

Yes, PSI bowl gouge set priced reasonable but would still recommend a single size gouge starting out.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LX298.html?prodpage=1LX

Sharpening
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bowl+gouge+sharpening&sm=1


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks, Bill. I'll set aside the one gouge until the wife gets comfortable with one of the others. I realize the 5/8 gouge was somewhat unnecessary, but it will encourage her in learning how to turn.

I'll watch the sharpening videos with extreme interest. I can sharpen a chisel or plane iron just fine, but the lathe tools seem to be unique.


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## RolfBe (Jun 7, 2013)

If you continue to get deeper and deeper into the wood turning a really good sharpening system is a must. 
I for one am not skilled enough to manually do a fingernail grind on a bowl gauge. The Oneway Wolverine system with the additional Varigrind attachment will make the whole process much easier and repeatable. 
I have over time assembled the same system as what Steve uses in this video 



 . For me it has made the whole turning experience much more enjoyable.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks, RolfBe. I can't afford those sharpening jigs, but it is clear I need a decent grinder, which I ordered last night. I'll have to make a sharpening jig while waiting for the grinder to arrive. I'll also be watching every sharpening video folks are sharing with me.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

A bowl gouge is required even when only rounding the outside of the bowl. 
Don't feel bad. I had to learn this lesson the hard way as well. Be glad it bent. I had one break and go flying across the shop. Flying cutting tools is never a good thing. 
Also, learning to sharpen is an absolute must. Trying to turn a bowl with a dull tool is an accident waiting to happen. 
The reason for the bowl tool can only be understood by thinking about the nature of face turning. It doesn't matter if you're working inside or out, with each revolution of the wood the tool has to cut with the grain, across the grain, with the grain, and across the grain again. Now figure how many revolutions you're spinning a minute, multiplied by the measurement around the bowl, and realize that you're usually cutting a mile or two if material a minute. Without the thicker tang a bowl gouge offers, one catch and something has to give. Without the deeper flute a bowl gouge offers ejecting chips faster, a catch is inevitable.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I know you have read my recent blog about making your own oland tools. I find the oland tools less scary to use for a beginning turner, cheaper if you make them yourself. 
I still encourage learning to use a bowl gouge, but it is food for thought. 
I have turned a couple of bowls using nothing more than an oland tool and a good scraper. I prefer my gouge, but I done it just to see how it would turn out.


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Lathe tool bent while roughing a bowl blank? 2 things come to mind - too much tool hanging over the rest - 1500 rpm is way too high for roughing a bowl blank. Add those to using the wrong tool.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

William, I'll take a look at the Oland tools. I figure on making them down the road, following your video. My biggest mistakes seem to be using the wrong tool (I thought a every gouge was good for making a block round), spinning too fast, and not having it sharp enough. After reading Randy's thread about how sharp is sharp, I think the gouge was not very sharp at all. 
Hairy, I'll definitely take your advice and move the belt to the slowest speed. I'll also wait to try again until I am comfortable with the edge on the tool.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I wasn't planning on making a video. 
The two part blog I just done on making tools has plenty of photos though.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Yeah, sorry William. I've been running around at work today and was typing without thinking through the sentence. However, there are enough pictures that I can clearly see what you've done to make the tool. It's a great blog.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

It isn't really the tools that are the problem. If you understand the turning process, you can use cheap gouges up to the limit of their capability without getting a catch. They work fine for small bowls. Good quality, stronger gouges are needed for larger work. They can also catch badly if used wrongly, but are unlikely to bend or break. They probably won't be any easier to sharpen though. Read the books, watch the videos, if possible take lessons, and learn how the gouge should be presented to the wood. Start with very small bowls and learn to walk before you run. Use softer timber for practice, keep the rest close to the wood, keep the speed low and the gouge sharp, make open, shallow bowls not deep ones, and use fairly short bevels. I like a small, shallow spindle gouge for small bowls, but it has to be ground for the purpose. And yes, always wear a face shield just in case!


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Ah ha! There's were I went wrong Terry, I don't know what I'm doing … grin. And yes, that is quite true. I appreciate the advice. I'm actually trying to learn so I can help my wife learn. I haven't seen any turning classes around here, but that is a great suggestion. She is planning on parting the wood into two pieces, making one bowl about 2" deep and another that would be between 2 and 2 1/2" deep. Thanks for the advice. The wood will stay where it is until the grinder gets here and I can get the tools sharp. She has a full face mask to keep her safer while turning. I'm also watching as many videos as possible. How close should the rest be to the wood? It is only about 1/2" away while she is turning. Thanks.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Never had one bend on something that was pre-rounded on the band saw.
I am wondering if the tool rest was too far away - because I have a Benjamins Best set, and when I am turning there is only ~1/2 inch or less gap between the tool rest and the work piece, it is not possible for a wood catch to ever have the leverage to bend the last 1/2 inch of a gouge.

Back the rest away, and sure you can bend that, or your skew as well.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

1/2 inch or more is fine, 2-3 inches will be more difficult. That's when you need a rigid gouge with a longer handle.

Is there a particular reason to part the bowl? That itself could be tricky with short tools. I would suggest making bowls of about 4 inches diameter and 1 inch or so deep at first, possibly using green timber. She will learn a lot from that and soon get the hang of it and get more ambitious.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Terry and Erfurt, I just double checked the rest and it's actually about an inch away.

Terry, she originally wanted to make a much fancier bowl. She is rather ambitious. I tried the one bowl gouge and it cuts much, much easier. However, I think it still needs to be sharper. It's a Benjamin's Best right out of the package. She wants to part the blank, which is made of 1" square x 7" long pieces of cherry and beech, because she doesn't want a really deep bowl. The bock is 6*7" thick.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

It's good to be ambitious! Is the block being turned on the end grain or the side? The technique will be different for each. Could it be sawn in two rather than parting in the lathe? Could she not come back to this blank after making some easier practice pieces? The first bowl someone makes is always worth keeping, but is not likely to be very good. She will do better for that block when she knows what she is doing.

The main difference between the gouges is likely to be the length of the bevel. You can't do much bowl work with a long bevel spindle gouge because the bevel can't rub on the wood. It's not safe if you don't understand it.

I still think a small shallow bowl in cherry or similar would be best to begin. When you get a feel for the cutting action you will enjoy the turning more, though it may be less exciting!

One way to tell if the gouge is sharp is to see if the edge catches on your thumbnail or slides over it.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Terry, it's end grain. I'll post a couple pictures. I'll mention the idea of trying a simpler piece, perhaps something made of a single block of wood. The squared didn't glue up as flush as I hoped, which may also be part of the problem. I have some cherry, but I don't think it is more than 1" thick. She also has pen blanks on the way.



















Beginning shape


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I would not use Jumbo Jaws (Cole Jaws) to rough in a piece … especially one this big.

Either use a face plate, a spur center, or turn a tenon and use a chuck.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks Gerry. I'll see what can be done to change the mounting to the lathe.


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## Bill7255 (Feb 23, 2012)

Gerry you are so right. Jumbo jaws are not for roughing. Regarding bending a tool I did bend a Benjamin Best bowl gouge. Like everyone says it was operator error learning to use the gouge. The BB are good tools although not Sorbys or Henry Taylor. I also have the HF with the red handles that are suppose to be better than the current offering. They are fine for what they are and I do use them.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

The Sorby's are way out of my price range, even to purchase for my wife. I am quite certain it's operator error. I want to learn from this and make it a one time mistake. I also have a bowl chuck, but it only goes to 4 or 6 inches. What is considered a large bowl for turning? I wasn't thinking this would be considered big.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

You don't need a chuck the size of your bowl … you turn a tenon (or mortise) on the blank and use the chuck's jaws to hold the work.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Ah, got it. On another note, the local woodworking association has a wood turners night multiple times a month. I think I will try to get my wife involved in it. I'll be sending in the paperwork for a family membership tomorrow.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

That is a great idea! I was going to suggest you look for an AAW (American Assn of Woodturners) affiliate in your area. I highly recommend AAW … http://woodturner.org/community/index.htm


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Gerry, that's the one. It was recommended to me by Dave (Sikrap) and I just haven't gotten around to it. I'll bypass stuff for myself, but less so for my wife.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks, all, for taking the time to reply. I appreciate every comment. Sherry will continue to learn. She has agreed to set aside the blank and start with something smaller and easier. It is great to see her enthusiasm.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

As well as the chuck problem, a block that deep will be difficult to hollow on a basic lathe. There will be a lot of vibration without tailstock support and it won't be fun.

That block looks like what I referred to as side grain, which is probably best to practice on. The grain runs from side to side of the block and you will see the end grain on the side of the bowl.

You could do worse than start with 'found' timber. A 4 inch length from a fresh tree branch of say 4-5 inches diameter can be split in half. Split off some of the round part of the 'D' shape and chop off the bark. Saw off the corners and you have a turning blank that will make a nice first bowl. Mount it on a small faceplate or turn a tenon on the flat face for a chuck. A faceplate gives the most secure hold, which is important for a beginner, particularly when moving on to larger pieces. Turn the walls quite thin, no more than say 3/8 inch, to reduce the chance of it splitting when it dries. Small branches make good spindle blanks too and wet wood is great to turn.

Expect to sharpen the gouge more than once for each bowl made.

I have lots of turning information on my website.

Terry


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Terry, I've got a sizable patch of woods in back of the house, though not enough to hunt on. I'm sure I can find something there or, if not too seasoned, grab a piece of mulberry out of the wood pike,

Unfortunately the link sends me to an LJ "page not found."

Sherry will also try to get into a turning class at NWA. I really want her to enjoy the lathe, so I greatly appreciate all the help.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Chris, lathe more of a spindle lathe lowest speed too high for inexperience turner to turn a bowl.

Wait for the pen blanks and try turning some pens and other spindle trpe turnings.

The jaw set in your chuck primarily used for revere turning, not very safe once tailstock support removed. You glued up to many blocks, to turn safely. Cut the blank in half.

Once you cut the blank in half. Recommend removing that jaw set, turn or drill a hole with forstner bit so standard jaws fir a recess and chuck jaws hold the wood in expansion mode. JMHO, prefer a recess over tenon for this type turning but either will work. Set the lathe at slowest speed before attempt bowl turning.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

Sorry about the bad link. This one seems to work.

my website

Some good advice given in other comments. I agree that 950rpm is fast for a block this size on a basic lathe. It's by no means a large bowl, just on the big side for existing equipment and skill level. Your lathe should have no trouble with small blanks. Mulberry is great for turning but not so common where I am unfortunately. It doesn't have to be fresh. If there are no cracks or soft areas in the blank it will be fine. If it comes from the firewood pile you may have to cut off the ends to get rid of cracks.

Terry


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Bill, sounds good. Funny thing is I hadn't planned to learn to turn, but my wife enjoys working together and wants help. Therefore I am in very new territory. I'll cut the block in half on the band saw and have her give it another go after the HSS tools and grinder arrive.

We are stuck with the speeds, for now. I didn't know if she would take to the lathe, so I purchased a very affordable one. I'm thinking the next model up would have been good, buy oh well. It will be a future upgrade some years from now.

Terry, yes, the new link works. Thanks! I'll search under the snow for a small piece of mulberry. I cut the tree down before thinking about using anything from the yard for woodworking. Now I wish I had it sawn into boards. Live and learn.

Terry,


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

OK, based on the advice I received, I decided to call HF, where I purchased the lathe. They will give 100% return as the large was purchased less than 90 days ago. I'll get my wife the heavier model at HF, which has good reviews. She is good with it, so I think she will have an easier time learning on it. It has slower speeds, as well as more speeds; 600 - 2400.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's input. I am clueless when it comes to lathe work.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

Chris,
You WERE clueless….
You have learned many a lesson, already!!!

All new adventures have a learning curve, that is what makes it fun & challenging!!!

Carry on….


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks, Randy … now I know enough to be dangerous - grin.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

OK, I have taken all of your recommendations very seriously. This is, after all, for my wife. So, the lathe has been exchanged for a better model. It's a Jet clone from Harbor Freight, the 34706. It is not top of the line, and the lowest speed is 600 rpm,which I hope is low eenough, but it is affordable and has great reviews. I was able to get full credit for the other lathe.










It's a huge step up.

Thanks, all, for taking the time to reply. And Terry, nice website. If you were in the east coast of the States, I'd look into lessons for the wife.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

Ya gotta love it, when you upgrade!!!

Good thing you made a sturdy bench….
Looks good on there!!!


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks Chris. I'm a long way from you.

That lathe looks good and it will take a while before she outgrows it, but you need to raise it up a little to let the shavings clear! 600rpm is still fast but OK if the blanks are reasonably balanced. Now you have to get the tool sharpening sorted out.

Terry


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

Congrats on the upgrade. 
Raise it a little off the workbench with some spaces. 
You just need enough room to get your hands under the lathe bed. 
You'll need to be able to clear shavings from under the bed. 
Also, the tool rest and tail stock assembly has a nut under it. You adjust how tightly they grip the bed by turning those nuts. So you'll need to able to turn them. 
I know she can learn to turn anything on this lathe. I know because I have the exact same lathe.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks, William. I'm taking Terry and your recommendation and putting a 1" think block of ash under the mounting holes. I'll add a second block if it's too short to get my hand under it. You've been a great help in getting Sherry started in her turning.


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## TerryV (Jun 30, 2012)

If the height allows it, you could put some blocks under the bench too. If possible make it so you can get your toes under that cross rail so you can stand close to the work .


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Face shields are effective.


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## lightcs1776 (Nov 14, 2013)

Terry, unfortunately the lathe would end up too high if I add blocks. I did move the new lathe close to the edge, where the last one was about three inches away from the edge.

Waho, Thanks. I was clearly informed that I was "required" to get a face shield for her, by folks here on LJ. So, like a good husband, I made sure she has both a full face shield and a woodworking apron.


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