# Scrollsaw vs laser - is scrollsaw doomed?



## Skiedra

I visited one large city fair this last weekend. There were quite a few people selling plywood creations - from wooden lamps to stands for earings and things like that.

Apparently all of them were laser cut. Given that lasers provide accuracy, speed of production and general convienence, is regul srollsaw doomed? The only thing is for laser cutters to become cheaper… what do you think?


----------



## wbrisett

With a bigger shop I could see a CNC router, or CNC laser in my shop, I don't see scroll saws going away. Part of scrollsawing or even working with wood in general is for relaxation. You don't get that same thing from punching buttons on a computer. Heck, I get to do that enough all day long. 

Something else to think about, while I would say a majority of woodworkers today use power tools for most things, there are those who still use nothing but hand tools. Those people have skills that I simply can't math with my shop full of power tools.


----------



## wiswood2

There is not much woodworking skill with laser cutting. all you have to know is how to set it up, a lot of art shows here are not letting laser cut products in their shows. A laser would not work on the things I make. 
Chuck


----------



## jeffswildwood

I too became a victim of power tools. Lately I began using hand tools. Trying things like box joints and even bought my first plane. I found that there is an art and a skill in the old ways that take a long time to learn. I'm trying but have a long way to go.


----------



## helluvawreck

There is no way that scroll saws are going away. Not all woodworkers are into mass production work. Don't get me wrong, laser machines have their place and I am even considering one.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


----------



## TheCook

Scroll saws are totally doomed. I haven't used mine since I got access to a laser.


----------



## woodworkerforchrist

Well heres my 2 cents. I dont think scrollsaws will ever be doomed for the hobbist. I really enjoy it and wouldnt enjoy cutting on a cnc or laser. Also cnc's and laser's are very expensive. As far as making items to sell yes a cnc or laser is much faster and easier and you could sell more for less…the scrollsaw cant compete with that. But many people still appreciate hand cut items that are each unique. And again a scrollsaw is fun and a way to express creativity and you dont get that from a computerized machine. I will always be a scrollsawer


----------



## Skiedra

Scrollsaw is definetly a tool for relaxation


----------



## crashn

Got my shapeoko (small format cnc) in the box on the doorstep. Cant wait to get home and start setting it up. 249 for the kit, i had motors and electronics. A 800mw laser is 100 bucks on ebay, so that is in my near future.


----------



## madts

The tools you guys are talking about are for relaxation. Prop engines went away for jets. Most hand tools went away for electric. We are left with the way we want to ply our hobby/ work. 
Be happy with the way you do it and make yourself proud. I have done it both ways and enjoy both.


----------



## Finn

I do not know….can a CNC machine do inlay work? Fretwork…sure but I do not do fretwork.


----------



## muleskinner

Yep, scrollsaws are doomed to go the way of chisels, hand planes and back saws.


----------



## Redoak49

I do not think the scroll saw is doomed at all. Yes, you can make some things faster with a CNC or laser. However, for things like Intarsia or one of a kind projects, the scroll saw will be there.

I have often wondered about the general attitude toward the CNC or laser. I am certain that they have their place for some folks but not me and I do not begrudge those who use them.

There are some who believe that woodworking should be with hand tools. I like the hand tools and the feel that they provide. Unfortunately, arthritis prevents me from using them very much.

I am not doing woodworking to make money. I do it because it represents a challenge and the journey is an important part for me. I started with a scroll saw about a year ago and have been doing Intarsia and some puzzles which you could not do on a CNC or Laser.

The great thing about woodworking is that one can do it any way that makes them happy.


----------



## oldnovice

Even though I believe in advancing technology I do not believe that the laser will replace the scroll saw!

A scroll saw can almost cut any thickness while a laser need more power to cut thicker material and in some cases the dark edges are undesirable!

It comes down to the same argument about CNC routers replacing hand carving; they both exist and will exist and neither will replace the other.

Let's advance to the 3D printers that are printing with wood resin will they replace carving? I sincerely doubt it!

I think Dave has it right in #11 "Yep, scrollsaws are doomed to go the way of chisels, hand planes and back saws."


----------



## scrollsaw

When I go to a craft shows and see laser work I show them my scrollsaw work they look at me and say laser cut and I say no cut it out on a scrollsaw by hand.Then I say I am a Artiest not a machine operator.


----------



## DaleM

I believe that a laser that can cut any real thickness of wood will always be too expensive in my lifetime to replace a scrollsaw for the average hobbiest so in my opinion there is no way it will replace it. Besides that, there is the fun and relaxation factor along with the satisfaction of making something with a tool where your hand/eye coordination is what gets the job done and you can't replace that with a CNC machine.


----------



## LokisTyro

CNC's do great flawless work, which in my opinion is their failing. It can never be a masterpiece. A traditional worker can look at a piece seeing things that no machine will ever see in the near future, and give it life and soul, and mess-ups!

One day there will be more scrollers than there are today as there are more blacksmiths now than there were back in the day. More people, that many more traditionalists.

It's possible that they may become rare here in the U.S. but meanwhile other countries will be using them, and likely the ones we used to own.


----------



## scrollgirl

Hi there! I put my two cents in on the subject in my blog this morning. I didn't want to post a lengthy reply here, but you can imagine I had a lot to say about it. In short, I think that there is room for both the CNC machines AND the scroll saw in our woodworking shops. Each has their pluses and their limitations and I do think that both are useful for different reasons.

Great post! I truly enjoyed seeing the opinions from both sides. 

Sheila


----------



## sweetsaw

I think scroll saws are coming back and are here to stay.


----------



## nancyann

I think both the lasers and scroll saws will have room for each other. The scroll saw doesn't have to have a program inserted to cut out what I want to cut. It allows me to be the artist and if I desire to, make what I'm cutting a little more unique. I really don't know much about lasers, but for me the scroll saw is more of a challenge for me and my art.


----------



## GWhit

For those that think CNC is the next step, consider the next step in competition after that…... "Made in China"


----------



## revwarguy

Personally, I think there are a lot of misinformation going around about this, like:

1. "There is little or no "craftsmanship" in using a CNC." I built my CNC router, and I have used it for many projects which I just couldn't or wouldn't have done without it. There is a LOT of time and effort that goes into making things this way, and it has it's own kind of craft in its use, well known to anyone who's actually used one. When a hand tool enthusiast looks at a project he appreciates all the techniques and effort that went into it by using those tools, and "sees the craftsmanship." Believe me, when a CNC guy looks at a CNC project, he does exactly the same thing.

I see this as the same argument that still goes on between hand and power tool woodworkers. A scroll saw is a power tool. I guess some coping saw users look down on the scroll saw users as some kind of mere "machine operator?" I think most folks are ok with both coping and scroll saws in their shop, like I am. I am also ok with a CNC machine in there, too.

2. "CNC's are only good for mass production." They are certainly attractive to a business for that reason, but I use mine all the time and I only do one-off kind of work, not counting repeating a pattern for effect, like shown here, which is a good example of where I would not have even considered doing all that carving without a CNC. They can do things with such precision that I just wouldn't even think of using hand tools to attempt it. An example of that is here. Also, lots of CNC folks are doing inlay work with them.

3. "Lasers will always be expensive." This is most probably untrue, and here's why. There needs to be very little force applied when moving the laser since it doesn't bear down on the material like a router does. This means that the same light weight mechanics that are used in printers can be used, and look where printers are. They practically give away printers that can move a print head with such precision to squirt ink to make your high res photos in just order to sell the ink. Also, gas lasers are now a bit expensive, but diode lasers are cheap, can be mass produced with little raw materials and are constantly improving in power. When they make a 30 watt diode laser then the price of a laser could easily be in the range of where cheap printers are today. A 100 watt one will cut dimensional lumber. My money says its just a matter of time, and not much of that.

4. "CNC results will always be too perfect." There are already many techniques to reproduce a "hand carved" random gouging effect for carved backgrounds. Actually, computers are pretty darn good at random and you can achieve crude looking results with one if that is what you want, believe me. In the above toolchest example, I could have easily changed each of the drawer front patterns to be unique by moving a few of the vectors around for each drawer, but I am not sure what that would have proved. Uniformity or uniqueness is just one of the dimensions that the designer varies to create his project - ideally, it should have less to do with the tool being chosen than with the end effect being sought.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this. None of this says anything bad about doing scroll saw work, but I don't believe there is anything bad about doing CNC work, either. I have many hand tools in my shop, many power tools, including a scroll saw which I don't hesitate to use, and a few computer controlled tools. They are all just means to an end, and that end is what we all strive to attain and appreciate. Also, I get the same kind of pleasure out of doing the computer set-up work and watching the CNC machine make a cut that I get out of moving the wood across the scroll table, or pushing a plane across the edge of a board.


----------



## oldnovice

I don't believe that any woodworking tool has ever been obsoleted by the introduction of a new tool. The tool drawer of a woodworker just keeps expanding … probably just as fast as the universe!

Some woodworkers, for whatever reason, draw a line as to how they want to expand their collection of tools and that why this is such an interesting profession/hobby/pastime … (pick the one that fits) ... diversity of characters, tools, skills, results, project, capabilities … etc.

I am sure that many of US have bought the "next best thing" only to have it end up on the proverbial shelf.


----------



## JGM0658

They can do things with such precision that I just wouldn't even think of using hand tools to attempt it. An example of that is here.

Here you go, precision without CNC.


----------



## helluvawreck

Come on, Jorge. Don't put this article up!. I'll have to ponder all over again the question of just how in the world somebody manages to do this kind of work. :-|

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


----------



## revwarguy

Here you go, precision without CNC

That is really cool, Jorge. My hat is off to that guy!

Just wanted to point out that I wasn't saying that kind of precision wasn't possible without a CNC, just that for myself, I wouldn't consider a project like the one you've shown manually since that kind of mastery would be an end unto itself. A CNC allows me to consider doing many more things than I would otherwise decide against.

I am sure that many of US have bought the "next best thing" only to have it end up on the proverbial shelf.

Absolutely. New doesn't necessarily mean good, just as it doesn't necessarily mean bad.


----------



## HorizontalMike

"...I don't believe that any woodworking tool has ever been obsoleted by the introduction of a new tool. ..."

Well maybe the 'Rock' hammer… *;-)*


----------



## oldnovice

OK Mike, I'll give you that one … and there are probably a few more it that category.

But I am not old enough to ever have had a "rock" hammer!


----------



## LokisTyro

How I think of CNC is like this; A piece is programmed, that's the art, then carved by a machine, much like a book is written and then printed by a machine, the written word/thought is the art. The book or wooden project becomes "proof" of the art.

What I said here and earlier wasn't intended to take anything away from people who use CNCs. Scrollsaws and CNCs alike have their advantages and disadvantages. Both of them have the ability for an artist to do what they enjoy and express themselves creatively using different processes. That said, I am biased towards my personal preference and my comments reflect that, for the most part.


----------



## TheCook

Both CNC routers and scrollsaws are terrible to listen to. Lasers are quiet and don't produce a pile of sawdust. I'd still rather make a wooden box with a hand saw than a laser but it's pretty incredible to be able to laser cut some gears out of a scrap of acrylic to make a spirograph for my kid.


----------



## JAAune

For a hobbyist, this question is pointless. There are people out there who build entire rooms of furniture entirely from handtools. Almost none of them earn a living doing so but that isn't their motivation in the first place.

Professionals on the other hand, always have to keep a sharp eye out for how new technology might impact their markets. Things like CNC machines haven't replaced hand-carving but they have reduced the need for hand-carvings and thus have claimed a significant portion of the decorative carvings market. Some niche markets however, still remain strongly in the camp of hand-carvers. Professional carvers either need to get into one of those niche markets or invest in CNC technology.

If someone is making a living doing scrollsaw work then yes, they'll need to determine whether or not their type if work is more suited for laser production. I know I'd not care to try earning my living creating simple Christmas ornaments by stack cutting them on a scrollsaw. I do however, like using a scrollsaw to do odd tasks such as cutting the waste out of handcut dovetails or putting a quick profile on the corner of a piece of trim.


----------



## MyWayChipCarving

One of my first shows I set up at, a gentlemen came up and picked up one of my scrollsawn snowflake ornaments. He carefully looked it over, looked at me and said "laser cut?". I said thank you but no, they were cut by hand on a scrollsaw. He sat the ornament down and gave me a look of "yeah right" as he walked away.

I thought it was a nice compliment anyway.


----------



## atouchofoz

I agree with Oldnovice, The dark edges are distracting to the projects I do. I have two scroll saws and would like another one. (Some women have many sewing machines. I prefer scroll saws!) Suzanne


----------



## sawdust703

I tend to disagree. I've been scrolling a number of years. Never attempted to try to make a living at it, nor judged the folks that are. I think the scroll saw is here to stay, folks. Yes, I get those folks that ask if my work is CNC work. I just say thank you, but no. My work is all done on scroll saws. The look you get in response to that is undeniable. The questions begin. What's a scroll saw? How do you get your work to look so beautiful w/o computerized help? How long does it take to make this or that? On & on. Every scroll sawyer is unique in their own way. Same as CNC, I'm quite sure. I have created everything from wolves to combines cutting wheat on my saws, and watching the pattern come to life, so to speak, is one of the best parts of it for me. And it's relaxing, & addictive. I don't see punching a program into a computer as being to relaxing, or addictive either. Every wood worker has their own opinion. I'll just keep scrolling.


----------



## bruc101

I don't ever see a laser or any kind of cnc replacing a scrollsaw, chisels, planes, backsaws. Hand tools have been around for generations and power tools almost that long, lasers and cnc haven't.

I have a friend, and neighbor a few miles away that is a retired software developer and owned his own company. When he retired he came straight to me and asked me to help himself set up a woodworking shop. So, we head out to Atlanta one day to do some tool shopping.

The first things he bought was the big Dewalt scrollsaw, a Jet mini lath and bed extensions, a Jet 16×32 sander, Jet table saw, Jet dust collector, had already ordered the Griz Extreme band saw with all accessories plus more accessories he bought in Atlanta. He also bought a Jet model ros. We came home that day with one of our box trucks looking like a woodworking shop on the inside with just about anything he wanted and thought he would need.

It took us a couple of days to get his shop set up and running to more or less do scrolling. He went to my daughters office and had a towel with him acting like he was crying and needed anything they had he could use to scroll with as far as wood. He told them their dad had cost him a lot of money in Atlanta and he was broke and couldn't buy any wood. No doubt their laughter could be heard all over this valley. He left them with plenty of wood and thin plywood to scroll 12 hours a day for a year it seems like.

He told me a few months ago he decided to do a local craft fair. A guy next to him was selling laser cut crafts and he was selling scrollsaw art. He sold out and had taken a lot of orders for portraits, the guy next to him hardly sold anything. He said he heard one lady ask the other guy if his trinkets were made in China.

We use cnc in our business due the nature of the business but have no laser. They have their place in woodworking. My friend being a software developer could have written programs for one with ease. He told me as long as he could remember he wanted to be a scroller. His cousin tried to get him to buy a Carvewright…he laughed at him and told him there is no craftsmanship in a cnc and he wanted to be a craftsman not a cnc operator.


----------



## Bluepine38

What I am trying to visualize is a laser cutter that looks like a scroll saw, with the blade being replaced by
a laser. Would they need to invent a SAWSTOP mechanism for the laser to prevent trimmed fingers, or
could we trust woodworkers to be careful. Scollsaws like my Dewalt come with a small blower to keep 
the cutting lines clear, so the addition of a larger air supply would be part of the fidly bits neccesary to get
the smoke away and prevent burning. The scroll saw is easier on my hands than the coping saw, the 
laser with no vibration might be even easier on my arthritic hands, would that make me less of an artist?
I guess I will wait and see. Woodcarvers are not regarded as less an artist for using Foredom wood carving
tools, and in the future we may see less wood wasted when trees are cut into lumber with lasers instead
of saws. Makes you wonder.


----------



## ArlinEastman

> With a bigger shop I could see a CNC router, or CNC laser in my shop, I don t see scroll saws going away. Part of scrollsawing or even working with wood in general is for relaxation. You don t get that same thing from punching buttons on a computer. Heck, I get to do that enough all day long.
> 
> Something else to think about, while I would say a majority of woodworkers today use power tools for most things, there are those who still use nothing but hand tools. Those people have skills that I simply can t math with my shop full of power tools.
> 
> - wbrisett


What he said.


----------



## Finn

> When I go to a craft shows and see laser work I show them my scrollsaw work they look at me and say laser cut and I say no cut it out on a scrollsaw by hand…..............."
> - scrollsaw


I get shoppers that refuse to believe I do not use a laser nor a CNC machine to do my inlays. I can cut many of my inlays in ten minutes or less. The total item (box) takes me three hours to make. If a CNC could cut the inlay cutting time (the fun part) in 1/2 it would save me about five minutes. Oh wait, It would take that long to tell the computer to cut what I need. I do not see how a cut can be made much faster than I do with my scroll saw on 3/4" stock and not burn the wood. Maybe it can. I have a woodworking friend that bought a CNC cutter and has spent months trying to learn to make it work well. I wonder how that is going for him.


----------



## MrRon

I don't believe scroll saws will ever go away. Laser machines are very expensive and I can't see them coming down to a price amateur woodworkers can afford. Even CNC and 3D printing is very expensive and out of reach for all but the richest hobbyists. It is not a tool for the true craftsman, the guy/gal who enjoys creating with his/her own two hands.


----------



## sawdust703

+5 Mr. Ron!!! I see you finally put up a post that ain't centered around you!!! Great job!! I fully agree w/you, Sir! The scroll sawyer is an outstanding breed, IMHO! We are a woodworker, artist, & a perfectionist with visionary capabilities to make our project, or yours, however you care to look at it, come to life. And when the project is completed, it has feelings, heart & soul put into it that a machine will never be able to. To a client, that is worth more than what a computer can put out.


----------

