# Metric vs. English: Which do you use?



## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Here in the U.S., we are still stuck in the English system of measurement - inches, pounds, etc. - while seemingly the rest of the world uses the much easier, and more logical, metric system (the U.S. officically adopted the metric system with the Metric Conversion Act of 1975). Which do you use?

I admit, I'm still stuck in the English, just due to habit, I suspect, but am thinking about forcing myself into metric. You might be able to subtract 7 3/16" from 22 7/8", but I sure can't, at least not without the help of a calculator. Contrast that to 1051 MM minus 752 MM, which is 299 MM !

As you know, part of successful woodworking is not making dumb measuring mistakes! I would think going metric would be less prone to error.

Thoughts?


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## Thuan (Dec 12, 2007)

I use inches for overall dimension becuase I can picture how long a foot is, and I use dimensional lumbers. My chisel set is metric, so when it comes to detail, i don't measure, I butt, mark with a sharp pencil, then cut. or use a marking gauge. I've given up on fractions past 1/16th.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

I use inches. I just think in thousands of an inch never in fractions.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Ever since becoming a nurse I've found that the metric system is easier than previously believed. Math, measurements, conversions all come easy. But unfortunately, being an American means I'm stuck on inches! I'm just used to it I guess. And I go to the 32's.


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

I use inches here in the states and when I am abroad I use metric.

I find inches to be simple based on the 1/16" kerf on a table saw blade. Base all cuts and dimensions on that, and english system makes sense


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## sbryan55 (Dec 8, 2007)

I am comfortable with either system. In my working life I was a chemist and everything revolved around metric measurements. With me in the shop it just depends on the situation as to what measurement system I will use.


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## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

I grew up in Canada when it was imperial. Canada changed to metric when I was in my teens and I quickly grabbed hold of it. But any job I got I had to use imperial, after all, all the material was still produced in inches and feet, and that's just what everybody used. On my own I tried to use metric as much as possible. Everything I built in my own businesses was done in metric.

Unfortunately, I moved to the US ~11 years ago and ended up being like a alcoholic locked in a liquor store. Old habits die hard. I'm looking forward to moving back to Canada where things are now produced (at least somewhat) in metric. It's sooooo much easier to calculate.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

The metric system is the tool of the devil! You go with what your used to and feet and inches are what I'm used too! Although I was thinking of going with another measuring format but the conversion is killing me..anyone know how many inches in a cubit?


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

I keep telling every to use the Bobsrule measuring system, best of both worlds!


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## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

I use inches when building a cabinet and metric when using the 32mm system. A lot of the hardware is going to metric.

God Bless
tom


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

David http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=1+cubit+in+inches&btnG=Google+Search

It is a dilemma for sure. The metric system is so much simpler to do calculations but I still *think* in feet and inches.

We should have started teaching the metric system in the schools back in '75 and let the kids get used to thinking in metric. Instead we now have TWO systems to deal with, and the metric sure isn't going to go away. We should have pulled the plug on the imperial system years ago (IMHO) people wont change until forced to, unfortunately


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

I use inches. I guess that thats what i've always used my whole life so i'm used to it now


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

I use inches divided into 10th's, 100th's, 1000th's, etc. Seems like the best of both worlds, easier to calculate and more precise than fractions.


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

Like a number of the respondents, I visualise most stuff in imperial but work mainly in metric.

Most rules here have metric on one edge & imperial on the other, so when finding the half-way point I find myself glancing at both measures to see which is the easiest mental calculation.

When asking for, say, an eight foot length of 4" x 2" (never 100×50!) at a particular local timber supplier, he reminds us that they're "*metric feet*"!! Meaning 300mm, and therefore you'll be an inch and a half short!


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## offseid (Jan 16, 2008)

During a similar thread recently, I first heard about Bobsrule (as sIKE mentioned above). I have to say, it sounds like a solid way of doing layout. I'm really considering buying one and giving it a spin.


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

Blake,

Do you have a rule that will measure 1/8" in a decimal? I know they exist but mostofusdon'thaveone


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## wooddon (Jul 11, 2007)

I like Bob's. But will most likely use fractions


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## againstthegrain (Feb 16, 2008)

I always used inches . . . until, I began my Festool habit. As I read more, about people using the equipment, I started using metric. I am still very new at it, but it is making sense. And it makes layout easier, once you get over the learning curve. I am currently looking for layout tools that are marked in inches and MM.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

I use metric when ever I can if the plans I am working from are not metric then I use the "inch and a little under or over method". Which side of the pencil line do you cut on? I sometimes use bobsrule but find it to much to keep up with all 3. I have found that I am getting away from trying to get it perfect with a machine and now I use hand tools and my eye to fit and cut pieces for a project after the machine cut and enjoy wood working much more since doing so. Most important though I have noticed a mark improvement in the quality and tolerance's of my work since I made the change I also cut down the time I spend on set ups for machines. It turns out it does not take as long to build something and it comes out better with less stress.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

After hearing about Bob's Rule, I bought a tape and ruler to see how it worked out. Theoretically, it's a good idea, but this old dog is havin' a difficult time learnin' a new trick. They talked about converting to metric in the U.S. when I was a kid back in the 60's and I'm sure someday they'll do it. For now though everything is inches and feet with the odd cubit thrown in for good measure.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

i use both systems and find metric easy for small things and imp. better for large things . i also have and use bobs rule and it is the best of both worlds unless your working with blueprints or premeasured plans .


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I agree with you, MrTrim; metric for smaller projects, Imperial for larger. I checked out Bob's Rule, and didn't really see it as being for me. Good for him for being creative though.

However, in defense of metric, some of the respondents noted that using 3' 4 1/4" is more comfortable than the metric equivalent of 1,040 mm. However, in real practice you would say 1.04 meters in the metric. Just a thought.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

pashley - 40.25 is just as simple, especially if you are already using imperial. If you use a tape measure it's
right there in inches. I'm not defending imperial but if you are used to it why change you whole way of
thinking unless you need it other things, like work.

Decimal inches is base 10 like the metric system. It's just based on the inch and not the meter.
10.50" is easier than 10 1/2" which is easier than 226.7mm.

Just my opinon.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I am ambivalent when it comes to measurement. 
I like metric for weights and volumes and have been trained in that area for chemical formulations.
In our U.S. dominated measurement world it is much easier to work with the prevailing tools (feet inches yards).
The cross over here in Canada has been protracted and annnoying in that we have to be able to work in both systems and the units are imperfect relative to the real world articles.

Let me give you an example:
Metric divides liquids into litres then half liters then quarter litres etc. (1000cc , 500cc, 250cc) this makes costing merely a quick flip in your head to determine how much you are paying for a product.

*Not here in Canada however.* 
We have 228ml cans, 480ml bottles and the list goes on.
I'm working with a lot plan today and the original size was 80' x 110'
It's now 24.38 metres by 33.53 meters. 
Oh joy, that's a lot better!

This is typical of our bureaucracy here that does everything half assed.

Bob


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Bob - Good thing you don't have to worry about weights and volumes too much in woodworking.

Bureaucracy is the same everywhere.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Gary, I picked up a can of nitrocellulose the the other day and it said 3.73 liters.
The instructions suggested it would cover 480 sq feet. <vbg>

Bob


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Bob - That's why I said "too much"


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm in the process of switching over to metric, like "againstthegrain" Festool is my impetus, but the paucity of good metric tools here in the U.S. means I've committed to, for instance, pay $50 for a tape measure if an online acquaintance can manage to get a shipment of them through customs. And I'm going to have to spend similar amounts on a high end Starrett combo square and some other fancy tools.

My one issue with metric is that tenths is a ridiculous way to measure, .1 millimeters is too small to be useful in woodworking. And metric doesn't really happen on human scales, even a quarter of a millimeter is a little tiny, and half a millimeter is just a little large, although it'll do in a pinch, whereas 1/64" is just about right as a size you can both see and cut to.

So I'm starting to develop and use more "story stick" sorts of techniques, and using glazier points and utility knife blades stuck in my wood for marking.

The good news is that most plywood these days is really in mm, not fractions of inches, so like it or not we're already metric there…


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Beal is offering a fractional caliper for those who would remain with the Kings appendages for measurement. <g>

Bob


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Dan - 50 bucks for a metric tape?? Ouch! Have you taken a look at FastCap? They have metric and metric/imperial tapes in the $10 range.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

I use both but prefer metric particularly for drawing & calculations.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I use feet more then inches but i,m too old to switch to metric now . I hate building small .lol


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## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

It's too bad our ancestors used their fingers for counting. Thus the base 10 counting system was born. 12 is by far more easily divisible. It's unfortunate it would be so difficult to convert our minds to using base 12 instead of base 10. It would eventually make things a whole lot easier. It would offer the best of both worlds.


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## RonE (Apr 2, 2008)

I use both, depending on what I'm working on. Using Festool's products, one needs to use metric. Coming from a Science background, I've used both, and do the math in my head if need be. Otherwise I keep a chart that I can glance at if the the head does'nt work…


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## RonE (Apr 2, 2008)

I use both, depending on what I'm working on. Using Festool's products, one needs to use metric. Coming from a Science background, I've used both, and do the math in my head if need be. Otherwise I keep a chart that I can glance at if the the head does'nt work…


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, yeah, I've got the dual marking FastCap, and it's fine, but the dual marking means I'm constantly trying to switch sides to read on the metric side, and it's got wonderful extension, but that means the tape is cupped so far that I can't get it close enough to the surface to use it accurately.

However, numerous Europeans have raved about the Talmeter tapes
, and every time I've paid a lot for a tool I've discovered things that I didn't previously know to look for that differentiate that tool from others, so I figured what the heck. So if this group order thing comes through, I've got one of each of those coming.


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## shiney5757 (Jan 28, 2008)

An engineer said to a carpenter, "I have to be within 1000th of an inch".
carpenter replied "Thats all right for you, but i have to be spot-on".

I use both measurments.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I use Inches… BUT, I think using Metric *in woodworking* would be a lot easier!


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Dan - you raise two valid points about the FastCap tapes.

I don't use dual marking scales because I always get them mixed up. I usually take measurements from the left and mark them from the right, so having the same scale on both sides of the tape is important. I have a tape that is fractional inches on one side and decimal inches on the other. I almost never use it because I'm too easy to confuse! FastCap does offer a metric tape that reads metric on both sides.

Too much cup in a tape can be really frustrating, especially when you are trying to get very accurate measurements. Holding the tape so that the scale is down against the workpiece works often … but not always. FastCap does offer a flat-back dual-marking tape that takes care of this problem.

However, as far as I can tell, they don't offer a flat-back all-metric tape! Darn! Maybe they will come out with one soon.


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## beaver1 (May 2, 2008)

greetings all, brand spanking new to the site. looking forward to interacting…i am a 45 year old male who recently up and left the hospitality biz and went back to school full time to become, of all things, a cabinetmaker. i am sure i will be searching through this site alot! i am living and studying in ontario, canada, and am being taught both methods of measurement. we built standard cabinets using feet and inches, and we built european cabinets (the 32mm system) using metric of course. growing up, my family lived in europe so i was taught in the metric system, but came back to north america where we used both. ( although canada is mainly on the metric system, we still have some funky numbers out there, so really we are sort of on a "impectric" system. way easier to add and subtract in metric, but something the way an 1/8 or a 1/16 sound that make it more alluring…its all good…my biggest question is this…

why does america still insist on using phillips head screws or in some cases, gasp, flat head or slotted screws? why has not the robertson become "the" screw and screwdriver? would love to hear some feedback on this, but if you've never used a robertson, use one first and then comment.

all the best!

jw


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## fredf (Mar 29, 2008)

I use Robertson (square drive to the un initiated) The story I heard was that the R didn't catch on because in the early days the power screwdrivers broke the screws. the phillips cammed out protecting the screws. . .
working with stainless deck screws I have had R heads strip. ... but never on a regular screw. I hate to think what a phillips tip would do with SS!

fyi the depot has combo head deck screws, the square head stainless. McFeeleys has a good selection of robertsons http://www.mcfeelys.com/find-a-fastener.aspx?selection=true&head=Any&material=Any&recess=Square


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## jjohn (Mar 26, 2008)

I worked a guy years ago, and never could get him to understand fractions. We used tape measuring to do all our work, whether wood or block or forming a driveway. Anyway…i wonder if he would have understood metrics easier? But, I couldn't have taught him…Only understand inches and feet. (I do know that a 12 metric wretch and my 1/2" keeps me grabbing the wrong one all the time).


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

I use the old standard american measurement. Seem to work fine by me.


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## johnb (Mar 31, 2008)

Even though I am Canadian, and the metric system is "official" up here in the cold north, I mainly use inches when woodworking. Probably because I am of a certain age, and missed learning the metric system in school. My kids and grandkids all use metric with ease.

I also find inches easier to use on a ruler and get lost trying to count all those mm's on the metric side of the rule.

Have fun

John


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Its curious that we, historically, encouraged the French to leave and we adopted the French measuring system and our neighbours to the south, historically, encouraged the British to leave yet adopted their measuring system… history is weird sometime.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

Mark - I think there is a difference south of the border. We have used the British system before we were the
USA.

So did Canada until 1970.

I thought you still had a pocket of French there? Don't they call it Quebec?


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## sjdickey (Jan 1, 2008)

I heard today that the only countries in the world NOT using metric are the United States, Myanmar, and Liberia. Other than my not knowing how far, long, deep, or heavy somehting is…why shouldnt we get on the wagon and switch?

If I remember correctly the U.S. was supposed to switch to metric by 1986, but we were never serious about teaching it to our kids in schools, thus is has not happened yet.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

I had heard that the industries balked at having to re machine all their production equipment. a lot of which still had several years life left.
The auto industry was one of the biggest industries along with the aircraft industry. I would require not only re tooling but rewriting all of the technical manuals.
As a result, the rest of the world took a giant stride forward and America now stuggles with product lines that are a tough sell outside the States.

Bob


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## Kipster (Feb 15, 2008)

Haven't been able to kick the Inches abd foot habit. To old to bother anymore.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

hmmm Quebec, yeah I've heard of it  Yes officially we are a bilingual country… I was making the observation a little bit in jest. I like the metric system but use both in my shop…maybe that is why nothing comes out square  A number of years back we had a very large flood here and I was with the team tasked to translate between the various response agencies systems of measurement…coast guard used lat long, army used grid references, federal govm't types used UTM (metric) maps and on and on…no body knew where anybody else was until we did the translations. Lots of fun with different measuring systems.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

We all know that the metric system is certainly more user-friendly…but..
The deal-buster is that we will never get away from those impossible conversion formulas! I mean, if I went totally metric, I'd still have to do conversions to calculate, for example, whether one 4X8 sheet of veneer plywood would be enough for an all-metric project I was billing out…


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## thetimberkid (Apr 5, 2008)

I use both, it depends what I am working out.

Callum


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Don't convert, calculate what a 4 X 8 sheet is once and use that derived value instead of the traditional 4×8. Once you have converted you need never go back to the Imperial system. That seems to be the stumbling block for many people, the converting back and forth, just do it once and don't look back. We still have to deal with lumber yards that use the Imperial system but if the consumers demand a change to Metric they will change.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I am bilingual, doesnt much matter as I can use both. I must admit that I lean towards the imperial system but my tape measures are in both as are most of my incremental measurements on the tools.

metric is perfect for dividing. Getting 7 equall spaces over 73 7/16ths using 3/8" plywood…........way easier in metric.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

I never thought this would be such a popular topic!


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