# Copyright on end grain cutting board design?



## cajfiddle (Dec 18, 2015)

Hey all, I assume this is the right forum to post this question….so I was browsing etsy for some inspiration earlier on a few boards I need to make as wedding gifts and came across this particular page:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/170225455/large-signature-black-walnut-end-grain?ref=shop_home_active_22

The guy does beautiful work and I commend him on his ability but I'm curious to a claim he makes: "My signature design of Black Walnut Bricks is copyrighted and the one and only true original." Is it indeed possible to copyright what I always assumed was just one of many designs out there or is he just going for a bit of poetic license to move more boards?


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

If you originate a design it is considered copy right. It is his burden of prove it however. Personally, if I want to copy someone's work, I ask permission first.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

That particular pattern IMHO is derived from the "subway" tile pattern that is in use all over the place. I seem to recall seeing the same pattern in another members post of their cutting board, so I doubt that the etsy person could sustain his claim. But it would be an expensive fight to be in.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

The guy is blowing smoke… the running bond pattern has been used for thousands of years and there is nothing unique about it, or his use of it.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

No comments to add on the copyright issue, but I have a question regarding the construction of his board. I can't be certain from the pictures, but it looks to me like he has a series of end grain "bricks" with end grain "mortar" on the short ends of the bricks but long grain strips of "mortar" running the length of the board. Does that look to be the case to anyone else? I can't see anything that suggests that the long "mortar" strips are actually end grain oriented. I would certainly be worried about all of those cross grain glue joints even if I had "copyrighted" my own "personal" take on a cutting board pattern that has been in existence for decades and replicated in hundreds of individual versions over that time frame. Oops, I guess I made a comment on the copyright issue after all. Perhaps the long pieces are somehow constructed with end grain stock, but I sure can't see it in the pictures on the website. Maybe I need a better monitor.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

It's generally bad form to directly copy things from other people's stores and sell them. Taking inspiration and creating a unique spin-off is a different matter. It's possible a court of law would take the case seriously if someone copied the design to the last detail: wood species, dimensions, pattern and all.

Copyright laws don't affect those just looking to do something for personal use. You can create all the Batman artwork you want for your own home. Just don't try to sell it.

He's doing a good job marketing if he's selling boards for those prices.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

cajfiddle,

I am not any attorney. Only a trademark, patent, and copyright attorney can definitively answer your question.

I think there may be limitations of the protections afforded by a copyright. There is something called "Fair Use", with a whole bunch of case law. A wood butcher seeking to make a couple of wedding gifts for friends or family for no compensation may fall under this exception, but I do not know. An attorney could answer this question, and I doubt it would be very costly, if you would be charged at all.

It appears to me that the design and construction is not very complex. It looks like a modified checker board to me, simply two alternating woods, one light in color and one dark in color. Had someone objected to the copyright when it was being considered, it may not have been granted (so I believe). Altering the appearance and the materials so that the cutting boards do not violate the copyright is another option. However, I do not know to what extent alterations would need to be made.

If you do not wish to contact an attorney, the only other option is to do research yourself. You can find more than I suspect you can tolerate about copyrights, including copyright searches, at:

http://copyright.gov/

Good luck with the wedding gifts.


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## conifur (Apr 1, 2015)

If not out on the internet how will he know? Go and make them, worst thing is a cease and dissist order.


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## woodworkerguyca (Jul 17, 2015)

(not a lawer)
Copyright applies to printed material. Patents applies to functional, physical items. If he isn't claiming patent, he isn't claiming anything.
In this case there is nothing novel so a patent would stand up in court either.
As for the etiquette aspect, I don't sell my work so I have no idea, but (as others have mentioned) if this is a design of ancient origin, you can look for prior examples to "copy".
In the end literally everything ever made is a remix of stuff people made before.
Do some research, get inspired, do things the way it makes sense to you. That's all anyone else has done.
....IMHO


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## UncannyValleyWoods (Apr 18, 2013)

I know this guy….let's just say he has a very healthy ego….


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Well, thats one more for IP.

The whole concept is stupid.

Steve
Who has multiple patients gained by the company he worked for. And still thinks its stupid.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Yeah, and there is a guy up in Utah that claims to have the trademark on the hidden drawer in bandsaw jewelry boxes. He said it, doesn't make it so. This cutting board fellow is trying to make his units stand out for his high prices.

He cannot copyright a design if it has already been used in other mediums. He is certainly not the very first person to use this tile, or running bond design.
All he did was take the standard tile design used in tens of thousands of homes, businesses and subways, and apply it to a cutting board. That design has been in the public domain forever.

I start making sawdust and don't worry about it.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Here is how he justifies his "Copyright". Directly from his Etsy site shop description:

Many years ago, I wanted to make a cutting board as a gift for a family member. It went over so well that I was encouraged to start selling a few. Well, here we are today and my wood works have gotten more attention than I could have ever imagined, even 'as seen on the FOOD Network' recently. I enjoy this type of wood working and have received awards in art shows, fairs and contests. An eye for detail matters to us and If you are looking for the best, our shop specifically specializes in high quality butcher block carts, lazy Susans, wedding favors, island tops, tables and counter tops along *with my signature piece, the "Black Brick End Grain Cutting Board". I created that design some number of years ago, when I scoured the internet searching for such a board and could not find one anywhere - Magnolia Place Woodworks is the birthplace.* More unique originals to come soon! One last thing that is very important to us at the shop: for every board or cart purchased from Magnolia Place Woodworks, we are planting trees!

So he went on the Internet, could not find one, and claims he is the first? How hard did he look? Did he file any paperwork? Apparently not - just decided to claim it when he built it.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Copyrights do NOT just apply to printed matter as some asserted above. They apply to stylistic components and ideas as well (when I worked in advertising I had to sign a paper agreeing to the fact that my company owned all of my ideas and technically I couldn't even use it in my own portfolio - nice, huh?). If you build a Stickley style chair and call it a Stickley chair the folks who own that name will come after you.

That said, you can make cutting boards in a running bond pattern all day long. Just don't copy what he did to the down to the fraction and then advertise it.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/interviews/imitation-illegal


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

From the description and all that, sounds like he got online, found one made from cherry and maple and decided to make one from walnut and maple and called it his design. If you're giving them as gifts, wouldn't think twice about making it. Heck i probably wouldn't think twice about making and selling them as I'm sure there are tons of people out there who do. I can't believe people actually pay those prices for his cutting boards.

Now something like this I could see being your own design and something totally unique, not bricks. 
http://mtmwood.com/en/3d.php?product_id=1191


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> So he went on the Internet, could not find one, and claims he is the first? How hard did he look? Did he file any paperwork? Apparently not - just decided to claim it when he built it.
> 
> - Tennessee


This. I highly doubt that "I googled it a bunch and didn't find it" legally qualifies him as the original creator and owner of the design. If you made the same thing, and called it the exact same "signature series black brick blah blah blah" cutting board as him, he may have recourse, but I'm guessing it would not be that hard to find a similar board, created prior to this dude.

Seems to be this is a case of a salesman with an ego. If he's selling boards, good for him, but if he honestly thinks he holds a legal right to black walnut and maple brick-style cutting boards, he's probably a bit delusional.


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## aksarben1010 (Mar 15, 2012)

LOL, but everything on the internet is true.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I have seen companies here sue because people copy theyre stuff. In the end it comes down to who has the best lawyer and more money.


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## pmayer (Jan 3, 2010)

Kazooman, you raise an interesting point. My feeling is that the mortar strips should be oriented in the same direction as the "bricks", and therefore I build these boards that way. I've seen people do this both ways, but it seems that over time that a cross grain joint of this size could cause problems, especially in a project that sees such dramatic exposure to moisture as this.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

Every single original piece of artwork or even furniture is technically copyrighted. You don't have to file or do anything.



> What is a copyright?
> 
> In the US, copyright is a form of protection grounded in the US Constitution for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright protects, for example, literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as paintings, sculptures, poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works. With exception, copyright protection exists from the moment of creation and lasts until 70 years after the death of the creator.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

All advice I give on LJ is henceforth copyrighted. Redistribution of said advice without my written permission will result in a visit from my lawyer in the form of a cease and desist letter.

If I say "Nice job on that _" No one else can use the words "Nice job on that__" unless the order of said words has been altered.

Now, yall go have fun. And dont tell anyone "yall go have fun" without my permission.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

All advice I give on LJ is henceforth copyrighted. Redistribution of said advice without my written permission will result in a visit from my lawyer in the form of a cease and desist letter.

If I say "Nice job on that " No one else can use the words "Nice job on that_" unless the order of said words has been altered.

Now, yall go have fun. And dont tell anyone "yall go have fun" without my permission.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

"Every single original piece of artwork or even furniture is technically copyrighted. You don't have to file or do anything."

What I was told do years ago IF you anted to copyright something was to send a copy of it to yourself registered mail and don't open it. If you ever have to go to court you have proof.


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

I think this is an interesting discussion as to what originates a "unique" idea. As many have stated, laying wood in that pattern is not original. I don't think this would hold much water in court and as such, it is kind of crazy to even put on your etsy page.. bloated ego i suppose. There are sooooo many nearly identical items for sale everywhere including etsy.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

He's full of ********************….

Even if he wasn't….he'll be tied up in court for a while.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=brick+pattern+cutting+board&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2-dvcxLnKAhUS8GMKHYEeAgQQsAQIIg&biw=1247&bih=602


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

+1 Tony above.
Aside from your post here, it would be very hard for him to prove that you "stole" it from him or anyone else. It is such a plain, simple, geometric pattern that anyone may have dreamed it up themselves. Is he going to copywright the circle next? ... or the square?


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> +1 Tony above.
> Aside from your post here, it would be very hard for him to prove that you "stole" it from him or anyone else. It is such a plain, simple, geometric pattern that anyone may have dreamed it up themselves. Is he going to copywright the circle next? ... or the square?
> 
> - shipwright


You'd be best to stop posting here and go build another boat…word has it he's working on copyrighting that, too.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

ChuckV
I am Mr. SirIrb's Attorney and need your real name so I can file papers in your local court. We intend to take you to said court over infringement of his spoken words. He told you that his very speech had been copyrighted and you ignored him.

any and all of the above has been copyrighted and replication of the above is punishable by flogging in your town square via a copyrighted cutting board. You do have a town square, dont you?



> All advice I give on LJ is henceforth copyrighted. Redistribution of said advice without my written permission will result in a visit from my lawyer in the form of a cease and desist letter.
> 
> If I say "Nice job on that " No one else can use the words "Nice job on that_" unless the order of said words has been altered.
> 
> ...


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> ChuckV
> I am Mr. SirIrb s Attorney and need your real name so I can file papers in your local court. We intend to take you to said court over infringement of his spoken words. He told you that his very speech had been copyrighted and you ignored him.
> 
> any and all of the above has been copyrighted and replication of the above is punishable by flogging in your town square via a copyrighted cutting board. You do have a town square, don't you?
> - SirIrb


 Mr. SirIrb,

My real name is SirIrb. My legal team will be in contact with you later today to "kindly request" that you cease and desist all infringement of my copyrighted name.


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## bearkatwood (Aug 19, 2015)

Copywriting pertains to writing hence the name. If he wants his design protected he needs to have a design patent. I am currently working on the same process. I have thought that my work was copy-written in the past just because I said so and made it, but you need to have it patented.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Not funny. This is a legal affair. And I will find you by any means necessary.
TheRealSirIrb-Hence the name over there <<<<----><<<<--->


> ChuckV
> I am Mr. SirIrb s Attorney and need your real name so I can file papers in your local court. We intend to take you to said court over infringement of his spoken words. He told you that his very speech had been copyrighted and you ignored him.
> 
> any and all of the above has been copyrighted and replication of the above is punishable by flogging in your town square via a copyrighted cutting board. You do have a town square, don t you?
> ...


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> ... This is a *legal affair* ....
> 
> - SirIrb


Is there no end to your infringement?


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## zandz (Feb 23, 2014)

I just happened to see this post and found it pretty funny. 
I'm a professional woodworker and have been one for a decade. When I was new I did lots of craft shows, local markets, trade shows. 
I found that the people doing wooden weaved baskets got into this copyright thing a lot. They would throw fits over someone coping their design and make all kinds of threats. 
Or the other hand I and 99% of the woodworkers I've met have all been willing to share how they create things. With woodworking the skill in making the item is much more important than knowing how. 
I think it would be Ludacris to claim you have a copyright on a design of some wooden project. People have been using wooden cutting boards for so long that most of the designs would fall into the public domain. Even then I think it would be hard to prove in court. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the money it would cost someone to go after a copier. 
After looking it up some I think its hard to copyright something made from wood for a useful purpose. A cutting board couldn't be copyrighted now. You don't copyright items that are 'useful'. You file patents for those items. The only way to copyright a wooden item would be on looks. And the decorative parts would have to be quite substantial and stand alone. Copyrights are really for artistic or literary items. If I created Mr. Cutting Board Knife Man and used his image on a cutting board I could copyright that. Anyone using Mr. Cutting Board Kinfe Man on their cutting boards would be liable. 
I'm sure there are some lawyers that would take up cutting board copyright issues, but only if they could make money.


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## PCDub (Sep 24, 2017)

> Aside from your post here, it would be very hard for him to prove that you "stole" it from him or anyone else. It is such a plain, simple, geometric pattern that anyone may have dreamed it up themselves. Is he going to copywright the circle next? ... or the square?
> 
> - shipwright


Hey, Ohio State University got a legal trademark for the word "*The*"......


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Well someone must have gotten to the guy. Not only is the item not there, but the shop is unavailable too…










In woodturning circles this particular horse has trotted up numerous times and they've just about beat that dead horse to death.
I always thought it was a little silly for people to demonstrate their work in in symposiums, club meetings, Youtube videos, and books, but then get bent out of shape because everyone copied them, and cry copyright violation - as if they could make it stick.

Just use good sense, have a little humility, and give credit where credit is due. Don't be an object lesson.


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## mrg (Mar 10, 2010)

copyright
kŏp′ē-rīt″
noun
The legal right granted to an author, composer, playwright, publisher, or distributor to exclusive publication, production, sale, or distribution of a literary, musical, dramatic, or artistic work.
Exclusive right to multiply and to dispose of copies of an intellectual production (Drone); the right which the law affords for protecting the produce of man's intellectual industry from being made use of by others without adequate recompense to him (Broom and Hadley).
The right of an author or his assignee, under statute, to print and publish his literary or artistic work, exclusively of all other persons. This right may be had in maps, charts, engravings, plays, and musical compositions, as well as in books.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

You can re-jigger your business model to reflect the harsh realities of competing with the den of thieves that exists in the handcraft market and everywhere else.


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## recycle1943 (Dec 16, 2013)

copyright ? My bowls are a unique item and unlike anything else on the net. I suppose I could get a copyright on them but there's no reason to. The process from start to finish is quite the chore and difficult to duplicate in exact form because of the measurement tolerances.
I've shown several people how to make them but only one has completed the task because it is so labor intensive. Business wise, I probably lose money on every sale because of the labor involved and I've made and sold over 300 of them. 
But, I'm having more fun than any retired individual is legally allowed to have.


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