# Another Amateur Looking To Go Pro



## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi Everyone,
I am fairly new to the forum, but have been doing carpentry/Woodworking as a hobby for about 6 years. Over the past 2.5 years or so I have become increasingly interested in this as full time gig. I have sold a few pieces, and have done a couple of commissions, but my plan initially wouldn't be to strike out on my own. Ideally I'd like to be doing custom furniture, but am aware of how hard it is to start independently and good opportunities in established shops are few and far between. Instead I thought I could work up to being a cabinet maker, and then potentially do occasional pieces for commissions.

I currently have a fulltime gig doing marketing, so this would be a fairly sizable step down financially, but other than my student loans (working to get them paid before making the leap) I don't have a lot of set costs, and unlike most 27 year olds, I don't drink, so no excessive bar/restaurant tabs to reign in. Also, I grew up in my father's body shop and doing landscaping, so I am no stranger to hard work and am prepared to start small.

*My questions is, once my finances are in order, what is the best way to go about doing this? And what types of experience/skills/tools would help me achieve this in say a 3 year window? Also, what should I expect from a pay standpoint? (I live in New England if that matters). 
*

Also, I have about 6 years doing digital marketing, so I will plan to continue doing some of the contract work I have done to help pay the bills.


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## paratrooper34 (Apr 27, 2010)

I can't offer anything but good luck. I wish I could do what are doing and hope you can find success in doing it.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Develop a nice looking furniture portfolio and sell
to rich people.

In addition to being not very well paid, custom 
furniture is competitive. You'll need hot designs
of your own or serious reproduction chops. I
would avoid going after Sam Maloof as a lot of
people are doing that.

I would recommend keeping your current career
and bypassing opening a shop specializing in plywood
casework. If you want to do furniture and fine
work, don't do kitchens if you can avoid it. It's
a trap!

If you want to work for somebody else, consider
timber framing.


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## 01ntrain (Jun 21, 2015)

Well, the experience with digital marketing will help you, for sure. You're your own built-in web-designer, which is what's going to get your work out there for the general public to see. Wish I had those skills….I screwed the pooch when I split with an ex, years ago. She was a big-time web designer in these parts.


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

New England is a good area for this. Lenox, stockbridge and areas where those rich folks live is where I would start. Also, you have the tourist coming from Boston and NY whom you can expose to your products. I used to live there 30 years ago so, things may have changed. For sure, the best plan is transition from one job to another; think of it as your new part-time job until the demand makes it full-time. You need the income from your primary job to support your endeavor.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Build, build and build more. Get set up to run stuff in bulk. Every time you sell 10X more your production costs need to be cut in half. Get finished inventory ready to sell.

Listen to customer feedback.

M


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I recall quite some time back another LJ mentioned that he had begun to do retail business out of his workshop. He had previously been covered under his homeowners insurance. He found out as a result of going into the retail area he was required to purchase a business insurance policy as his home owners wouldn't cover his tools and shop.

Something to consider.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

It's been a while since someone asked this question.Good luck.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> It s been a while since someone asked this question.Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FANTASTIC vid for those who want to venture as a "professional woodworker" thank you for the enlightenment.


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## Gaffneylumber (Feb 18, 2016)

I used to work in a cabinet shop and I can say what used to be fun turns old fast when you are constantly building boxes. Not to mention there is always a time crunch. This generation wants everything built now. It takes a lot of tools that have to be set up to optimize efficiency. I can imagine there will be some high startup costs. Good luck though!


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Best way to start is to determine your product/niche. With your marketing background, this should be doable. Once you've got that figured out, calculate the ideal outlay of capital required to make it succeed and also calculate the minimum needed (I mean bare-bones minimum) to get things rolling. You'll want to launch the idea with the minimum outlay to test the market before committing.

If you have to build the first products with a handsaw and chisel do it. Work massive over-time to get the jobs done fast enough to eke out a profit. Once you know sales are happening it's time to start spending money on acquiring better equipment. Read books on lean manufacturing to get a sense of how big tasks can be done well on small budgets.

I do recommend heavily focusing on a niche. Being good at all things is too expensive and too time-consuming. You want to pull this off in a three year window so you need to keep your goals realistic. You aren't going to get a shop equipped to build conference tables in three years. You won't get a name as a fine, custom furniture-maker in three years. You won't even be able to get the needed skills in three years.

With good coaching and 40-60 hours of work per week, you can become a skilled (but not a master) furniture-maker in 3-5 years or master a narrow, specialized niche in the same time.


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## Tabletop (May 9, 2016)

Here is what I did…
Worked for nearly 15 years just building for friends and family. Then when I wanted to go full time I made a bunch of "smalls" and hit the local festivals. I then sent my wife and a few of her friends to several small town "boutique" stores. Many small towns in the south are renovating their downtown areas and opening new privately owned stores They would ask about real wood furniture and if they had any Nashwood furniture. They independently would visit these stores and the last one to visit a particular store would just happen to have my card. For every store that carried my furniture they each would receive $100. This resulted in 6 stores carrying my furniture. The only problem is I was selling at discounted prices so they had room to markup. However, this grew my reputation and has led me to customers willing to pay for quality products. Will I ever be financially rich, No, but I'm happy and not having to sell a kidney.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

> It s been a while since someone asked this question.Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow this video cuts right to it. I too want to go into woodworking full time, I have run the numbers against my skill and capabilities every which way I can, and I just can't seem to make the numbers work for me in my stage of life, so I stay in hobby mode with the goal of selling enough stuff to take a vacation once a year, and completely fund my tool addiction. It works for me…

But don't let anyone tell you that you can't make it work. You can make a living doing anything if you're committed to it. Just be realistic on what your financial goals are. I once read an article about a guy who makes a living teaching people how to play croquet, yes croquet. That convinced me anything is possible.

Good luck.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Build your portfolio while you still have money coming in from your current job. Keeping your job while you do that will help you buy materials and tools to hone your skills and designs and start getting some recognition for what you do. You need to find a look, technique, style or niche that sets you apart in your target market so that you can charge enough to do more than just get by. To be more than just another carpenter or cabinet maker (nothing wrong with that if that is what you want to do), you have to be seen as an artist and craftsman so that you are competing for top dollar, not just appealing to people deciding whether to buy from Ikea or you.

My 2 cents.


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hey Nathan,
Your two cents are appreciated. Seems like this is the consensus, spend more time in the shop working on skills and efficiency and find something unique and focus on that.

Thanks for the advice



> Build your portfolio while you still have money coming in from your current job. Keeping your job while you do that will help you buy materials and tools to hone your skills and designs and start getting some recognition for what you do. You need to find a look, technique, style or niche that sets you apart in your target market so that you can charge enough to do more than just get by. To be more than just another carpenter or cabinet maker (nothing wrong with that if that is what you want to do), you have to be seen as an artist and craftsman so that you are competing for top dollar, not just appealing to people deciding whether to buy from Ikea or you.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> - Lazyman


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

becikeja,
Thanks for the insights! I think the financial aspect of it will be as critical as the skills/marketing. I'm fairly young right now and have been able to keep a relatively small nut (compared to some friends of mine in the same work) but I think getting down and figuring out ways to cut out waste and lower my living costs will be just as important as getting top dollar for my work.



> It s been a while since someone asked this question.Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hey Tabletop,
That's some really solid advice. I think patience and persistence is going to be the deciding factor in whether I can make this work in the future. May take me longer than planned, but hopefully I'll get there eventually.



> Here is what I did…
> Worked for nearly 15 years just building for friends and family. Then when I wanted to go full time I made a bunch of "smalls" and hit the local festivals. I then sent my wife and a few of her friends to several small town "boutique" stores. Many small towns in the south are renovating their downtown areas and opening new privately owned stores They would ask about real wood furniture and if they had any Nashwood furniture. They independently would visit these stores and the last one to visit a particular store would just happen to have my card. For every store that carried my furniture they each would receive $100. This resulted in 6 stores carrying my furniture. The only problem is I was selling at discounted prices so they had room to markup. However, this grew my reputation and has led me to customers willing to pay for quality products. Will I ever be financially rich, No, but I m happy and not having to sell a kidney.
> 
> - Tabletop


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hey Jaaune,
That's exactly what I'm looking for! It seems like my timeline is a little short and the reality probably won't be nearly as linear as my plan was, so thanks for outlining that.

As for next steps, my immediate goal is still the same, keep working at it and focus on improving both skills and efficiency.

As for tool upgrades, I already have many basic entry level power tools (contractors saw, 6in jointer, 12in planer, couple different sanders, 14in bandsaw). My next buy is definitely tablesaw, but any ideas on how to go about deciding what's needed beyond that? I know that's an ambiguous question, but how did you go about deciding what you would upgrade next?

Thanks again for your time, and seems like you specialize in liturgical items and I really liked the Sedgebrook Chapel Altar you have on your site.



> Best way to start is to determine your product/niche. With your marketing background, this should be doable. Once you ve got that figured out, calculate the ideal outlay of capital required to make it succeed and also calculate the minimum needed (I mean bare-bones minimum) to get things rolling. You ll want to launch the idea with the minimum outlay to test the market before committing.
> 
> If you have to build the first products with a handsaw and chisel do it. Work massive over-time to get the jobs done fast enough to eke out a profit. Once you know sales are happening it s time to start spending money on acquiring better equipment. Read books on lean manufacturing to get a sense of how big tasks can be done well on small budgets.
> 
> ...


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

The next tool you need (throughout your career) will be dictated by your work and what you're hoping to be able to do or are currently doing and need to do better or more efficiently. Many folks on this site have their workshops pictured and you can get an idea of what everyone has and what they need by the projects those same people have posted. IMHO a good table saw is the cornerstone of any shop.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You might consider investing time and a little money
in learning veneering. One thing that is easy to
observe at craft shows is that marquetry work
gets more buyer attention than solid wood 
furniture. This is pretty subjective, but just for
the same reason that luthiers are well-advised to
learn pearl inlay skills, the furniture maker who
wants to stand out should examine decorative 
techniques.

These days you can buy the parts for french 
tables and things like that and put them together
relatively cheaply. The parts come pre-sanded.
It's the finishing that sells such work. If you can
become good at faux and gilding and things like
that it will be a way to make your work stand out.

I'm just being honest here. You're still young enough
that you can really make a go of it if you go in a
promising direction. Simply becoming good at 
executing the geometry of common furniture pieces
is not enough to get paid well for the work.

Another interesting option is to become skilled at
repairing old chairs. Buy several and fix them up
and then you'll have proof of your being a good
chair doctor. Offer pickup and delivery because
it's rich little old ladies who want their full sets
of chairs tuned up, not burly guys with their own
trucks to bring them to you.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

While I wish you the best with your endeavor, I can only think about what another person told me about a custom furniture business: "the best way to make a small fortune at woodworking is to start with a large one". I know some fellows who seem to do well in larger cities (well-to-do clientele) but getting established is a time consuming and lengthy process. Still, best to you!


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Best advise I can give would be to land a job (even part time) at a custom cabinet shop for a year or 2.

Being there and seeing how an operation works would be a big advantage at helping you guide your business.

You will also learn a lot of commercial techniques that will be a big help instead of going to school on your own.
School lessons on your own aren't cheap, and believe me, you will be paying for schooling along your path.

Sometimes the best way to learn is after you have done something wrong.


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

OK, I'll say it. Don't give up your day job. Enjoy your hobby. Make stuff for friends, family and maybe an occasional side job for money. Unless, of course, you want to be continually worried about where your next meal is coming from. Only the very rare person makes a decent living as a custom woodworker.

On the other hand, you CAN make money working wood if you focus on high-end commercial and business accounts-think receptionist/office building lobby desks, restaurant bars, mansion wainscotting/paneling, other commercial/architecture work. Lawyers offices, doctors offices, etc. I have a close friend of many years who has done just this. But it's hard work, and long days.


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## MNgary (Oct 13, 2011)

Do you want to do fine furniture (for emtional reasons) or are you wanting to be self-employed and woodworking happens to be a means to the end? If the latter, study European style cabinets and think plastic laminate nursing stations in hospitals, assisted living complexes, and medical clinics. T hey are usually custom designed by an architect and, therefore, can be an interesting build.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Those are AWI premium grade. You'd need a $40k
edgebander to bid those jobs, plus a CNC or a 10'
sliding table saw and a construction boring machine,
etc.

Shops that do that stuff do make money it's true.
They also do recording and editing studio interiors,
etc. Some do wood millwork too.

For awhile there was so much of that work going around
that carpenters could get a basic edgebander that
would barely do 3mm and bid those jobs, but that 
was before the crash.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

DON'T QUITE YOUR DAY JOB!!!

Much better to work 60-80 hours a week, but at least have half that time result in steady pay. The time to quit your day job, or better still reduce hours, is when you can make more money by quitting your job and spending all your energy on the new business.

Also, when you approach it like a business and start accounting for your tooling, wear and tear, shop space, etc. You'll likely be surprised how little you are making. As it is now, your day job is likely subsidizing your woodworking and masking much of the cost of the items you have sold.

I too, think that video nails it.

I'm a big fan of evolution, natural selection, whatever you want to call it. Rather then bet the farm on a product you choose and then hope to sell, better to do many different things as custom jobs, and see what customers have interest in. You mentioned you have already sold some things. This is where I would start from. Assuming those customers are happy, try to develop what has already worked for you.

I know a lot of the comments, mine included, are discouraging. Be excited about the idea, but you're much more likely to succeed if you are realistic.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Just one note to add since I didn't see it mentioned.

You said you have been doing commissions. Do note that your Homeowners insurance will not insure your tools against theft, if they are part of a business. So if you work out of your house, and someone breaks into your garage and swipes your stuff - - they won't replace it.

Irrespective of 'going pro'... you are using your stuff for your "business" already so it may be time to chat with your broker.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't think anyone should leave a job that pays the bills and take up Cabinet making.
The only cab guy I know was practically born into his trade.And he is very grumpy.
Trying to make a living sell solid woodworking is very difficult.It takes a lot of effort and time to build a voice that represents good woodworking.
Work that's honest and affordable.
Then it's still like sitting on the side of the road and trying to sell buggy whips to cars as they drive by.


Aj


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

> As for tool upgrades, I already have many basic entry level power tools (contractors saw, 6in jointer, 12in planer, couple different sanders, 14in bandsaw). My next buy is definitely tablesaw, but any ideas on how to go about deciding what s needed beyond that? I know that s an ambiguous question, but how did you go about deciding what you would upgrade next?
> 
> Thanks again for your time, and seems like you specialize in liturgical items and I really liked the Sedgebrook Chapel Altar you have on your site.
> 
> - mision56


The secret to buying new tools is simple (but still takes people a long time to learn). Just go into your shop and start building stuff. As you build things, figure out how long it takes to perform tasks, determine where all the time is going and acquire new tools or fixtures that will eliminate the biggest chunks of wasted time.

One important thing to understand is that most of the time, your money should not all get dumped into exciting tools such as shiny, new tablesaws and planers. I spend maybe an hour a week standing at my table saw so why should I spend $4,000 on a top-of-the-line cabinet saw then slap together a 2×4 workbench where I'll spend 50% of my workday? My tablesaw is a Grizzly contractor saw that I got as a gift 13 years ago and my workbench is a dead-flat, 5'x8' aluminum honeycomb vacuum pressing table that probably cost $2,000 new and I picked up for $200 on Craigslist. Best $200 I ever spent.

I suggested reading up on lean manufacturing earlier and to be more precise, what I'm recommending is that you learn the concepts of "value" and "value stream". Most woodworkers are starving because they fail at those concepts. "Value" is what the customer wants and will pay for and everything else is "waste" (like that 10 minutes you spent looking for a pencil). "Value stream" is the combination of all processes used to get from raw materials to marketable goods. If you understand how to analyze this (whether mentally or on paper) you'll quickly learn to see where all your time is going. You might think a new table saw is the money-maker because it will cut your sawing time in half. But usually you'll find that your time is used getting materials to the saw and cutting machining time in half isn't all that critical.

----------------------------------------------------

Regarding my work, that Remmert Studios site is where I spent my first ten years as a pro. I built most of the stuff there but the designs were done by the boss. When I went independent (Altare Design) I opted to stay with the church furniture market but also went for more traditional styles to differentiate myself from my old employer. I still advertise his company for him.

So my niche is church furniture and it works because those jobs are group-funded. You can chose to work for rich people, corporations or group-funded projects. Get 100 people together to contribute $100 to a project and you've got a $10,000 budget to work with.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Being unique as well as good. Having backup income is very wise. The sooner you become an anul perfectionist the better. Because it's custom built, remember that you are creating something with every piece and your name and reputation are attached to it. You must self-promote while trying to be humble. YOU MUST COMMUNICATE WELL WITH CUSTOMERS (and non-customers).

Welcome to Lumberjocks


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

AJ2- you said it best, with that Video and your quote: "Then it's still like sitting on the side of the road and trying to sell buggy whips to cars as they drive by. " Instead of sitting by the side of the road- 2016 it is: EBay, Etsy, craft shows and YouTube, for us mere mortals. Then there are my favorites Wendell Castle, Andrew Pitts, WoodWhisper and may we not leave out Charles Neil, who have risen to the top. And then there is me- recently I created and produced 3 CNC carvings see photo-








Each carving took 20 hours of "machine time" ($50×20 = 1,000) just to carve it, yet alone with design and … costs. Now all I have to do is sell it! Regardless, of your "product" and I don't care how beautiful, functional it is- "Why would someone want it? " MARKETING!!!!


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I think what Loren said has a lot of reality in it. I've also given this some thought. I think the work you do depends a lot on the area you live.

For example, if you live in a historic town or there is a substantial historic district in your town, you might have an opportunity for antique reproductions and repairs.

If your in suburbia with many young families, you maybe doing a lot of built ins, bars and cabinet work. Young couples don't usually have the financial chops to commission a $2-3K piece of furniture, but they will spend $10K on new kitchen cabs.

Of course, getting known is the biggest factor and you have a leg up on that with your tech ability.

I think displaying pieces at local art or farmers markets is also a way to get exposure. So what Mad Mark said is also a good idea, that is, to have several pieces you can transport easily for display.

I wish you the best of luck. You are young and energetic and I say go for it!!

(But don't quit your day job just yet ;-)


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I …..produced 3 CNC carvings see photo-
> - Desert_Woodworker


Yes, the CNC machine rarely gets the credit it deserves.


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Haha, won't be filing the two weeks notice just yet . Being self taught I don't have many opportunities to get strong feedback on next steps and goal setting, but this conversation has certainly helped.

Thanks 


> I think what Loren said has a lot of reality in it. I ve also given this some thought. I think the work you do depends a lot on the area you live.
> 
> For example, if you live in a historic town or there is a substantial historic district in your town, you might have an opportunity for antique reproductions and repairs.
> 
> ...


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## Johnny_Yuma (Nov 29, 2009)

If you're skilled enough to start your own business you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job in a wood shop. Do that!!
Let someone else pay while you learn and make mistakes for a few years. Make connections, learn the industry, find suppliers and pay attention to how long it takes you to make everything! Keep records of what you do everyday!
Meanwhile make smalls, start an Etsy page and make enough product to have a second listings page on Etsy. Keep doing that while you build a portfolio.

Once you are working 20 plus hours a week on your own jobs (on top of your woodworking day job) then you should start putting all the pieces together to go on your own.
Don't forget to hire an accountant, get your LLC and become sales tax exempt. You will also need a rider to cover your tools and some purchasers will require that you're insured as well.

Minimizing your personal expenses is huge too! Get rid of as many bills as possible

Good luck, it's a rough, uphill journey.


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## Johnny_Yuma (Nov 29, 2009)

One more thing….
Learn everything you can about finishing! People don't care what kind of joinery you use. They only care how the finish product looks.
I think it was Charles Neil that said a woodworker is only as good as their finishing skills.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Hello Everyone.

I started out 14 years ago being a full time woodworker. I started out doing art and craft shows around the country. I am talking about driving up to 12 - 14 hours to do a weekend show. I didn't do just any show buy ones with high quality and high customer counts (Did a lot of stinkers early on but learned quickly which ones were good). Struggled to get by for several years living hand to mouth. Invested in doing wholesale trade shows and cold calling on potential vendors for my products.

I now employ 11 people and make a profit. It wasn't and still isn't easy but I love what I do so it is not work but rather a labor of love.

As mentioned above, invest wisely in tooling. Make sure that the payoff will result in labor savings and/or time savings. Invest in learning about lean production. Realize that you may work in wood but basically it will be a small factory that works in wood. Read, study, watch videos and take tours of production techniques.


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## JoustraWoodworking (Oct 28, 2016)

You have to read "the Quitter" (Closing the gab between your day job and your dream job. (I am on Chapter 2 and really like it)
Amazon Link

Pay off that debt, start slow and see what happens. Best thing I can suggest is to adjust your hours at your current job, 7am to 4pm then hit the shop!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Get a subscription to Woodshop News or
Cabinetmaker+FDM, they are trade journals
and almost every month each features a 
profile of a large shop and a small shop,
both making it work.


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## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

Just remember, everyone will love your work… until they are asked to pay for it!


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

No better words than what you just said…..


> Just remember, everyone will love your work… until they are asked to pay for it!
> 
> - tncraftsman


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## GnarlyErik (Jul 22, 2012)

Best career advice ever given to me was: "Learn your business on the other guy's dime." In other words, find yourself a PAYING job doing what you like, even if it's starting a the very bottom. If you have talent and pay attention, you will learn many things which will help you later, and any mistakes you make along the way are covered by your employer. Just try for a job doing the type of thing you want to do on your own if possible.

Your employer should recognize your potential and reward you accordingly, so the income will help offset the income cut from your current job.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> Just remember, everyone will love your work… until they are asked to pay for it!
> 
> - tncraftsman


I can relate to this. I produce electronic test equipment and software is involved. I get customers asking for some feature they just must have, it's critical. It might even be a good idea, so I say we'll consider adding it, but don't expect to see it until the next software upgrade in 6-12 months. But if they want it sooner, they can pay engineering time for it.

Never, not one time has the customer every been willing to pay for the "must have" feature. Amazing how it's critically important when they think they can get it for free, not so important when they have to pay for it.


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

> Just remember, everyone will love your work… until they are asked to pay for it!
> 
> - tncraftsman
> 
> ...


Clin,
This takes me back to my time as a low-voltage tradesman. People got used to pushing us around with last minute changes (had a PM that practically gave stuff away), until we got a new fire alarm project manager. Once he started responding to their demands with "We'll be happy to do it, as soon as you submit a change order," that critical last-minute nonsense dropped off dramatically.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Dec 29, 2016)

Quite a few pessimists on here, it is definitely possible to earn a decent living if you know what you're doing. I'll post a longer reply over the weekend, but there are 3 major factors that come into play:

1. The actual quality of your product/woodworking skills
2. Understanding how to run a successful business
3. Maximizing your efficiency at #'s 1 and 2

Here's a good article to read in the meantime:

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2009/10/01/making-money-built-ins/#more-1


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