# First Lathe - New or Old?



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

(Thanks in advance for reading my novella I wrote here, and apologize in advance for any tedium!)

I went in a HF store for the first time a few days ago and picked up the 5 speed midi lathe (the jet clone). Before opening the box, I checked my local cList for chucks and other attachments, and found a 1938 Sears Dunlap lathe for about what I paid for the Harbor Freight Lathe (with coupon).

A couple things: the Sears is obviously very serviceable with the motor separated and easily replaced, or maybe even changed to a flywheel and treadle. Also, it has last 75 years so far, it should last another 75, right? the HF, not so much.

My concern is the size - it is like 40" long, and one of the things I like about the Midi is that I might be able to take it outside on warm days. Also, I don't plan to do anything longer than 18", but would rather do bowls (if I go up in size). Also, I like that it's already at my house… And even if the guy delivers the large Dunlap, I am not sure how I would get it into my basement.

Here is a link to the ad, and I can't pick it up, but he said he'd deliver it for the modest price of gasoline.

The other option is to return the 5 speed midi 65345 and buy the HF 34706 Jet Clone everyone raves about (they are both jet clones)

I am told the Dunlap takes a #1 morse taper, and has 3/4"x16TPI on the headstock. And to tilt my hand to save time (I've been reading lots and watching every youtube video I can find for weeks now) I admit I don't know what a morse taper does (I know what it looks like…) or what the difference between #1 vs #2, and what the threading means on the spindle, because a morse taper can go in the headstock, does the threaded portion come out? I am ignorant on a few things here and it's hindering my ability to make the informed decision.

My budget for the lathe itself is under 200 so I could get either HF lathe or this used sears. I'd like to hear any and all thoughts!


----------



## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Heck…a lathe is a lathe, I bought mine when I was 14 yrs. old….it is now 69 yrs. old & I still use it . I think there is a picture in my projects of a spinning wheel made with this late. I use 5 step pulleys for speed changes instead of electronic baloney.

Lee


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

I agree, but some are more serviceable (and some are different sizes…)

If I keep the one I got, I have to at least build a stand for it, that will cost probably as much as the difference between the 5 speed midi and the 33" one with legs.

I guess these old lathes pop up all the time, but why wait to upgrade to that if I can get it for the same price (and it includes a faceplate and some other small bits).

The real question is: would it really be an upgrade? Or should I keep the midi and make pens and chess pieces and bowls and small candlesticks?


----------



## Gshepherd (May 16, 2012)

The difference between a #1 Morse taper and a #2 is basically the length and the "section" of the taper. Think of a long, tapered rod that starts at a point and gets larger in diameter the farther down the rod you go. You could cut a section out of any place along that rod and have the same taper. Both the #1 and 2 have the same taper per inch, but the #1 starts a bit closer to the "pointy end" of our imaginary rod. Also #1 is about 2 1/8 long and the #2 will be 2 9/16 long…..

I would just get keep the HF 65345… A Midi lathe is handy to have around for the smaller projects…. If the Dunlap was in my neighborhood I would buy it just because I love the old equipment…

So if your looking at a bigger lathe just get the other HF one….. The size of the bowl you will be able to do will be determined by the distance between the headstock spindle to the lathe bed unless your lathe has the ability to swivel the head. Hope your not more confused….


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm much less confused, thank you - also I think that means you could get a #1 chuck permanently stuck in a #2 lathe but if I have a #1 taper and buy a #2 chuck it just won't go in? Either way, I'll always be careful of that.

The issue with the size is mainly that if I keep the midi I don't have anything to put it on, and a stand would cost $50 I'm guessing. The larger lathe is $50 more expensive (and also has a larger motor and lever speed control instead of belts, and might be able to reverse? Or could mount something on the back of the headstock like a 20" bowl? I don't really know what I'm talking about now… it said "reversible head" on the larger HF lathe…) If this means I *can* turn a large bowl, then this could be worth the switch. The only thing is people report the motor gets hot, maybe that's why it's cheaper than a JET…

btw, I also like old tools, worked in my father's machine shop as a boy a few times, that place smells like home to me. That was in my grandparents house, and my grandmother just died so it's all going to estate sale and the house being demolished for new construction. I'd like to build my own version with 1940s sears tools someday… I am picking up a 1950 sears scroll saw today for $20 with a stand and a lamp locally. Now I can return the HF one I just bought for $90. I'm going to wait to see if I am taking back the midi so I only have one trip though. The scroll saw was an impulse purchase, but now I want one because I feel like I can make some $$ doing little custom name projects at fairs and such.


----------



## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Not sure why you bought a HF mini lathe, but would stay with that until think need a bigger lathe. Essentially get some experience turning before start looking for a better deal.

You have not told us what other accessories and tools you have now. Hope you have room in your budget for them.

Both HF lathes you mention can go back to the store before 30 day for replacement or money back. You have an opportunity to buy a protection plan.

That Sears model is where is as is, if you break it, finding parts and paying shipping might prove very costly! Yes, that Sears lathe is an excellent first lathe too because it comes with some tools! Cannot tell about quality of those tools from pictures.

Like the song says, "have to make up your mind pick up on one and leave the others behind." Good luck with it!


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

It's not mini, it's midi (10" swing) and I can *almost* carry it up the stairs by myself to take it outside on sunny days (it has no handles, so my wife helped me carry it into the basement).

I have chisels and it came with a small faceplate, drive spur and live center. I plan to get a bench grinder for sharpening (or maybe belt sander for "scary sharp" machine…), a drill chuck for the tailstock, and maybe a pen mandrel to help me pay myself back for the investment.

The return is 90 days, btw. I will know within the first 90 days if it is the one for me. The only thing that's not great so far is the belt changing. I am not sure how to keep proper tension on the belt while I'm tightening the holding screw. The larger HF lathe has a lever for speed control, not sure if that's moving a belt like a bicycle shifter, or what, but VS DC would be nice. Can't be too picky in my price range, of course!


----------



## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't know the particulars of these lathes. Although for pens I have the smaller type similar to the harbour feight but mine is the little delta.I find it great for small stuff and it is very smooth and accurate.I would however offer you this advice wood lathes generally don't break down during their lifetime, and if needed bearing changes are usually easy enough other than that or real damage from a fall etc .I would advise you therefore not to buy new but good condition used * hopefully with a load of tools and a chuck at an all in one price* usually well below new price.
Buying the accessories will be the thing that usually floors you or any other buyer of woodturning lathes. It can get out of hand, once you add it all up.If you find someone who has taken up the hobby spent out a lot of money buying all the gear bit by bit and then either not liked turning in the long run, or not having the time any more and advertises it in one package to get it all out of his woodshop.Then you step in like a knight in shining High speed steel armour and buy the lot at a reasonable or even great price and this is what is definitely do-able it has been a formula I have advised many people to do.Like any hobby people buy get all the goodies (whether it is woodturning,photography, golfing,etc etc,) that pertain to the hobby, and end up losing heart or have no real flare for it.I really wish you well Kindest regards Alistair


----------



## TerryDowning (Aug 8, 2012)

I have a 1939 Dunlap it's a good little lathe 9" swing x 45" bed.

I got mine for free missing a motor and in need some cleaning so I was not in the same boat that you are. Fortunately, I had an appropriate sized motor available so I got into mine very cheap.

The Dunlap does use MT#1 (which is the smallest size) in both head and tail stock. 
MT#2 will not fit in MT#1, MT#1 tapers will not lock into place on a MT#2 They are NOT interchangeable. You can get MT#1 to MT#2 adapters though.

The travel on the tail stock (The distance the tail stock moves when you turn the wheel) is only a couple of inches so drilling is not very convenient but this can be worked around.

Headstock Threads are another way of attaching accessories like face plates and scroll chucks. The threading on the Dunlap does use a 3/4" x 16 TPI Threading fortunately this is fairly common for small lathes so adapters are readily available.

Mine has the oilite bronze bushings which do require regular oiling. If the bearings on the one in the ad have been changed and replaced with new bearings (Fairly common) then no big deal. The oillite bearings can be a bear to adjust and if they are too worn then replacing may become an issue if adjusted incorrectly they can also get very hot!

Things to consider when getting in to turning. The tools and accessories can be as expensive or even more expensive than the lathe itself (depending on how creative you are) and can take some time to get a collection going. The machine is actually the least expensive part. (Until you move up to the monster big or high end lathes)

Only you can determine your priorities and desires.

FWIW I like my old machine. It does everything I ask of it.

I also have a 1955 Shopsmith Mark V which has a 16" x 34" lathe with a 3/4 HP motor and ranges in speed from 700 to 3500 or so.

The Robust American Beauty is on my long term dream list.

Like when I win the lottery kind of dream ya know?


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

I think I will keep the one I got. #1, it fit down my stairs, so there's that. #2, if I outgrow it, then GOOD! (and I'll have learned a lesson.) #3, I have been looking at pole lathe turning a lot lately, so I think I will be ok with a minimum of attachments. If windsor chairs (and bowls of that era) are fine without fancy chucks, then so will I be.

Ok ok, maybe a drill chuck for the tailstock for making pens (cheaper than a drill press…) and also for starting cuts for goblets and bowls (easier than making that first cut, I'd imagine, we'll see.)

I am going to price out materials for building a bench for it, and that could very well be the deciding factor. If a stand will put the cost higher than the 34706 with legs and reversible head, then I'll exchange it. Otherwise, I'll keep it and love it like a red headed step brother.


----------



## turnkey47 (Jan 12, 2011)

just got my new issue of wood magazine and there is a coupon for the hf 34706 lathe at a cost of $199!!!!!!


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

that's cheaper than sale + 25% off… I might have to find a copy… That's only like $30 more than I paid with tax…

I know they don't resell for much, but nobody in my area (philly suburbs) seems to not want theirs. I've been checking for a couple of months. I would be thrilled to buy a used HF crap lathe for $40, but oh well.

That 34706 is 175lbs though (and I read people do things like attach plywood to the legs to make them stronger/heavier… seems like it should rather be on a bench at that point, no?)

Either way, I still have like 85 days left to return the one I got, who knows, maybe I'll outgrow it by then. Once I build a bench/stand, I plan to try to work on it full time (~3-5hrs/day). I'll post an update when I get it set up.


----------



## shampeon (Jun 3, 2012)

The HF lathe you have is a decent lathe. It's compatible with the Jet and the other PSI/Rockler clones for extension beds, etc. The MT2 taper and spindle size means it's easy to find accessories. If you don't have the space for a big lathe and don't need to turn large bowls, it will do just fine.

I've got that model, and I have no complaints about its performance.


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

The 10×18 is compatible with the extension bed for the jet 10×14? I didn't expect that. I'm actually quite happy with the fit and finish, and if there was anything I'd change about it, it would be the speed change system and install a fan on the motor.

I might see about making an alteration so the motor doesn't get covered in chips/dust as well. As it is, it looks like dust will cover the cooling vents. Not sure where to install a cooling fan, though.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

If you want to do bowls, get the 12" lathe. Unless you are very careful about cutting out your bowl blanks (or make segmented bowls) you'll lose 2-3 inches just turning it round. Also variable speed is really, really, nice to have.

The old Dunlop is probably a decent lathe but only buy it for love of old machines. I have a '58 King Seeley and would trade it in a heartbeat for that old Dunlop. A correction to Terry's post above-#0 is the smallest Morse taper although uncommon but I do have an old lathe with a #0 taper.


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm not concerned with rounding rough blanks with axe or spokeshave, but the 12" doesn't have variable speed, it's a lever with (5?) stops. Does that move a belt like a bike chain? Or is that considered VS?

Btw, just set up my new 1951 Sears scroll saw and I love how the motor is hinged under the stand so the belt tensioned by the weight of the motor. Ever seen this done with a lathe? That would make speed changes much easier - and there could even be pinned stops along the stand to keep the speed steady…


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Oops, you are correct, it is not variable speed.

re: hinged motor. My '58 Craftsman is set up that way. You can look at my blog posts if you want to see it. Only I converted mine to variable speed so moving the belt is unnecessary.


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

I didn't realize the spindle came through the other side - you could make a 12" disc to put on the outbound, but not with the control panel there. Looks like you got a score for $50 and a little elbow grease.

I like the idea of the motor not being "inside" the lathe body - I'm sure I could alter this one, but with that much trouble, I should just buy a different one. Plus, if I had the motor under, I could pull the belt off and run it to a bench grinder on the other side…

You can't put a grinding wheel on a lathe for sharpening chisels, can you? I'm trying to think of a good reason why not…


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Once I get around to buying a left hand tap I'll mount a sanding disc on the outboard side. They make work arbors for old Craftsman lathes that will hold a grinding disc and other accessories. Don't know if you can get them in MT2. You can also mount sanding drums.


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

DustyCellist-The 12" HF lathe with the lever has what is known as a 'Reeves Drive'.

Essentially, it is a split pulley system where the sheeves on the pulleys widen, changing diameter so the speed changes.

Reeves drive systems have been around for years, and can be quite serviceable. Just keep them properly lubricated, use a good quality supple belt, and never move the lever unless the motor is running.


----------



## jstegall (Oct 9, 2008)

In reverse order, I had an old Delta/Rockwell that used that same hinged motor and it did make changing belts fast and easy. It was sitting on a huge homemade table when I bought it so that may not have been original. I cannot speak to how the lever set-up works but the only similar tool setup I ever ran across was just used to lift the motor to change belts. That is probably not what you have.


----------



## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

Just get it over with right up front. Order the biggest lathe on the planet. You really might want to hollow out a telephone pole someday, plan ahead. Just a joke - don't shoot.

Read this : Lots of good advice and nobody trying to sell you something. http://nealaddy.org/node/39

If I understand, you already have a lathe. Use it until you outgrow it. I wouldn't put too much more $ into either of the 2 you mentioned, ( That old Dunlap is pretty sweet!) but they will spin wood. Maybe turning isn't for you, or maybe you love it and then can decide what you want in a lathe.

My advise is buy used. Older stuff was made with quality that you won't find in similar priced new stuff. I'm not saying you can't buy new good quality tools, I'm saying they are not cheap. Buy old , but don't buy obsolete . Do some research, find out what's good and what's crap.


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Just for clarification … the Harbor Freight 12'' x 33-3/8'' Wood Lathe with Reversible Head (Item #: 34706) uses a Reeves Drive system … it does not require moving the motor to change belt positions.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Aren't Reeves drives a true variable speed? The HF 12" lists 10 speeds.


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Rick M. -I'm going by what the manual for the HF lathe shows …









The illustration clearly shows a Reeves drive … not sure what the 10 speeds is about.


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

Might look into getting some garage space to put together some full size tools. I'm looking at stands and even the HF stand (for a full size or extension bed) costs more than the difference in price between the mini and full size.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Gerry, hopefully it didn't sound like I was arguing, just asking. I haven't used a Reeves drive since HS and that has been several decades.


----------



## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Rick-No problem … it is a legitimate question. You are correct … Reeves drives are CVD (continuously variable drives). My wife's Dodge Caliber has a CVD, and if you look up the history of the Reeves system, it was originally designed for use in automobiles a hundred or so years ago.

Just a WAG, but it is possible the manufacturer puts stops or detents on the lever mechanism to give the user some tactile feedback on the approximate speed the spindle is turning at. That would be helpful if you needed to be running in a specific RPM range. Without that, you would just be guessing at the speed.

This is just a personal opinion on my part, but I don't think this lathe (the HF 34706) would be a suitable lathe for spindles and smaller work like pens, bottle stoppers, etc. The maximum speed is 2400rpm, which IMHO is too slow to get decent quality finish cuts on spindles and smaller turnings. For bowls, platters, etc. 2400rpm is OK.

The Harbor Freight mini and midi lathes run faster (3200rpm), but still aren't up to the speed you can achieve with a Delta or Jet midi.

Is speed important? Depends on your individual preferences and what you are turning. When I am doing pens, the faster I can run the better/happier I am.


----------



## TerryDowning (Aug 8, 2012)

If you only have 1 lathe, a wide speed range is definitely a plus.

I agree with spindles fast = good, the narrower the spindle the faster I go.

Bowls, slower is more better especially on large diameters.


----------



## DustyCellist (Mar 19, 2014)

Thanks all - I'm keeping the small one for now, hopefully my work warrants a better one soon (I don't wish it to be a poor tool, but rather that my skills grow quickly.) Now to build a stand for it! (and carry handles like the Delta has? hmm…)


----------



## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

"Heck…a lathe is a lathe, I bought mine when I was 14 yrs. old….it is now 69 yrs. old & I still use it ."

I bought my lathe when I was in my mid-twenties and I'm now 73. Its a 12" cast iron Delta lathe from the 1940s and its still looks like new and is running strong. The good old cast iron stuff lasts!

What to look for in a lathe is . . . .

Does it have a #2 Morse taper(or larger) headstock and tailstock? The reason for this is #2 Morse Taper (MT2) is the standard for many attachments.

Is it capable of turning on the OUTSIDE of the headstock? For large bowls and other work that are larger than your normal lathe capacity, this is how you handle it. The headstock spindle needs to be threaded at both ends (a Morse taper at both ends is an extra plus). You can mount face plates and chucks on the outside of the spindle to hold the work and rig up a floor resting tool rest out of threaded iron plumbing pipe. I have turned work as large as 28" this way and know of a fellow who turned a large "pie crust" table this way prior to carving the scollops.

If the lathe is very heavy, bowl turning shouldn't be a problem. If it is a light lathe, mount it to a sturdy bench and/or weight it down with sand bags. When beginning to turn large diameter work, the work is always out of balance until you can pare it down. The lathe will shake mightily, sometimes walking across the floor. And be sure to turn at LOW speeds!

Personally, I like the old iron. For the hobbyist, you get much better equipment for the price of so so brand new equipment. "Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice!"

Planeman


----------

