# There's a lot of skill and craftsmanship @ LJ's, but also a lot of bad taste...



## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

A lot of the projects I see posted look like they took a lot of skill to produce, but also look horrible overall, due to poorly chosen design proportions, style miss-matches, and color color/material mismatches.

It takes more than a well executed design to produce something worthy of praise, in my opinion. The design has to be good too. But when I click into the projects all the comments say *"great job, fantastic, beautiful!"*

Do many woodworkers have bad taste? Or does the LJ's community frown upon criticism?

Here's the thing:

People will be more reluctant to post projects if they fear critical commentary. *But the flip-side is *that I think there are a lot of instances were people are getting positive feedback on things, but would benefit more in the long run from comments on why the look or feel of something is "off."

Thoughts?


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

While I see your point I am not sure a anonymous forum is the best place for helpful criticism. A teachers critical eye can be extremely valuable as a tool to teach students what they did right and what they did wrong however a cynics view who is more interested in creating noise and disruptions (something all to common these days) has no value at all and can act to discourage people from continuing to practice and learn. The last thing any of us should want to do is drive people away from this craft.

We must also always keep in mind that Lumber Jocks is a community of vastly different levels of experience, capabilities, tool sets, motivations, and tastes. I believe that given those differences and the dangers that come with critical writing from anonymous faceless sources that it's better to be supportive and positive in my posts.

Richard


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

If worded properly, I think criticism has it's place. All should be complemented on the fruits of their labor, but remember that just because you don't like the design or what have you that doesn't mean it's bad. Also, if worded as you worded your original post, no, I wouldn't want to hear your criticism.

"John, your work looks horrible all it all, but I know you put a lot of time into it, so… there."

I don't think anything getting complemented looks horrible, remember people have different skill levels. A beginning woodworker would be very proud of something they made that an expert would think looks pretty bad.

I would rethink your wording and be positive in your criticism

"If I made that project I would have tried … or …, but man, you did some fine work."

My two cents.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Taste is very subjective and personal. The Internet is a breeding ground for trolls.any constructive criticism would quickly devolve into flame wars. I don't think what you suggest would be workable.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I get comments on changes I could make to my projects on occasion. I have even agreed once or twice…<grin>


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

I cringe at a lot of stuff I see on here but then I remember a couple of things. First, my original foray into woodworking was to make a crappy magazine rack for the bathroom and a couple of tabouret tables that are about only good for kindling. Those were necessary steps to get me to where I am now able to make heirloom quality furniture. We're all on a journey together. Any criticism at that point might have impeded my growth.

Second, we all have different aesthetics. Keep in mind that there are people in their eighties and eighteen year olds posting projects here. They're going to want to build completely different things. I'm a huge fan of Arts & Crafts furniture. When I see the homes in the background of the pics with the finished pieces in situ, I ASSume the maker is of a certain age and that we have wildly different tastes. That doesn't detract from my appreciation of the skill, effort and execution of their project, I just would never want that in my home.

Since we're on the subject, I do have to choke down making comments where people make really nice furniture out of pine or poplar. It takes the same amount of effort and only a little more money to make the same piece out of oak. Plus the finished product will last 100 years longer. Okay, I feel better now…


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## jdmaher (May 4, 2011)

Momma always told me: "If you can't say something nice, shut your mouth!"

I believe we should just let people be nice whenever they have the inclination. There's no accounting for taste, and maybe the compliment is about features or qualities that someone else just doesn't value as highly.

But I am highly skeptical of "constructive" criticism. Especially in a written medium, it often comes off as just mean. And a bit like an egotistical assertion that the critic has better taste than the artist. I don't believe that's really constructive.

And I'm certain that *I* don't need to burden anyone in the world with *my* subjective judgments. So, *I'll* do what momma told me, except when someone specifically requests my "thoughts".


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I think those who care will ask for feedback, both positive and constructive. Those who don't want it, probably wouldn't listen to it anyway.

I think LJ is an excellent place to share what you've been working on with like-minded individuals. Those of us that see it as a means to learn and improve our own skills are empowered to do so, and those who just want to share are also welcomed to it as well. I don't think it really matters what others think of someone's project, as long as the person who made it is happy with it.

I know I blend styles all the time, because I design by what I like. I also don't sell anything that I make unless it's a commission before hand, so it doesn't really matter if others like the design of it themselves. As long as people can appreciate the effort that goes into it, regardless of skill levels, I think it's significant.

I appreciate good craftsmanship as well as good effort, even if I don't like the design. I'd rather see people getting into woodworking at whatever skill they have. If that means encouragement by fellow woodworkers, even if their execution isn't perfect, then I'm all for it. People will grow and get better at their own pace, and if they don't but enjoy it anyway, that works too.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Well we all heard that of course. Having been subjected to critique in school for my architectural degree, it certainly taught me a lot and helped me build a thicker skin than the one I earned living in NYC  However I think as some others have stated, critiquing aesthetics here isn't the purpose of the forum. It's the means and methods that are paramount and what many come here in search of. For some, just getting things to align properly and stay together is a true accomplishment. Aesthetics are at that point, secondary. I think if someone that has limited skills in woodworking looks at the truly well crafted, well designed works presented here, they'll see something to strive for and mimic if not improve upon.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

I often see projects pretty much ignored that look really good to me, and on the other hand see projects go right to the top of the board with really obvious craftsmanship flaws.

As an observer it is an interesting study of crowd behavior.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

If it needs to be said, I don't propose that we say "that looks horrible!"

I get and respect the differences in ability that come with experience. I tried to make clear (without writing too many words) that its not execution that I'm thinking about, but design.

Yes, aesthetics and good taste can't be evaluated objectively or quantitatively. But that doesn't mean that one can't have a reasonable basis in discussing good taste, or what looks good and what doesn't…

...For instance proportions, or whether it makes sense to have a piece that has a natural edge, and sharp square edges, and also semicircular edges in other places.

I can think of analogs: A Pontiac Aztec, or a guy who wears a striped shirt with a striped tie and striped suit. It just doesn't work.

Overall, I get how sensitive people are to criticism, and for that reason I have held back. But it's an interesting dilemma.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

The biggest problem I have with giving criticism on a project is that you can never be sure if the piece looks off because of proportion or because of the photography (angle, lighting, etc.) Without seeing a piece in person, it's tough to know if the pictures are showing it off accurately.

Usually, if I don't like a project, I just don't comment. There have been a few times that I have posted a question about a design choice to try and understand why something was done a certain way. That way it's not really criticism, but if the person has a perfectly good reason that I do not understand, they can explain. If not, maybe it'll cause them to re-look at the piece and wonder why the question was asked.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I like to take the approach that JayT mentioned as well. Ask questions to gain understanding. It might even make the person realize something in their own answers. I do that at work all the time. I don't necessarily know the code someone is working on, but I know the questions to ask that help them answer their own questions.


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## bbc557ci (Sep 20, 2012)

As said there are different skill levels here. That, and it's none of my business when aesthetics or a persons taste are concerned. I like traditional, and I like quality. If someone asks for an opinion then fine…. critique away. I would not knock another guy's work or project, skill, or lack there of. But on the other hand, I wouldn't praise a piece or project, if praise isn't deserved.


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## DanielP (Mar 21, 2013)

-->>I get and respect the differences in ability that come with experience. I tried to make clear (without writing too many words) that its not execution that I'm thinking about, but design.<<< gargey

Interesting that you say design over execution. Seems like in woodworking execution of nice looking joints and proper finishing is or should be held in higher esteem than design, to me anyway.

Of course for projects that are going to be sold design is important, but the maker will learn that quickly with non-sales.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I've got to agree with Bondo and Jay T. Personally I only comment on the things I like.


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## jesinfla (Apr 15, 2015)

A pat on the back is a much better motivator than a slap on the wrist!


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

double post ignore/delete


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> -->>I get and respect the differences in ability that come with experience. I tried to make clear (without writing too many words) that its not execution that I'm thinking about, but design.<<< gargey
> 
> Interesting that you say design over execution. Seems like in woodworking execution of nice looking joints and proper finishing is or should be held in higher esteem than design, to me anyway.
> - gargey


To further clarify (belabor?) this point: I did not mean to suggest that I am elevating form over function or aesthetics over construction. They are orthogonal. My original post is simply only addressing the composition/aesthetic side.

An interesting part of this is that the design side is independent of the woodworking skillset, to a decent degree, and therefore not necessarily a huge obstacle whether the woodworker is a novice or expert.

You don't have to do a mega triple-blind inverted spliced drawbored dovetail joint to get the proportions right.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

As was said, the skill levels vary among the forum members. And, tastes vary. Often I'll see things in woodworking magazines that are extremely well done, but to me are as ugly as a mud fence. I've made and given away things (turned bowls, for instance) that looked great to me when I made them, but when I see them now, I cringe.

I'm not going to criticize someone's work. If they are happy, I'm happy for them. But in a year or two, or 10, that thing they made may cause them to cringe. I know the feeling. But..that thing may fill them with pride. Happily, I know that feeling too.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Great point. Excellently worded (in case you couldn't tell, that is sarcasm). I find this posting rather odd from someone who hasn't posted any projects yet. If, as you say, all of the comments are "great job, fantastic, beautiful!" and you disagree, has it occurred to you that maybe you are the one with bad taste?

I will be the first to say that my projects are not craftsman worthy or expertly designed. Most have been experimental in nature and attempts to try something new or learn a skill. For many of us, it is about the journey, not the destination, and the journey is more enjoyable when we share-sort of like sharing vacation pictures with friends. If people find it interesting or aesthetically pleasing they click and comment. If not, they don't. If you get few clicks or lots of clicks but no comments, that in itself is a critique and the type that most of us were taught at a young age by their mothers.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I try not to compare my insides to someone else's outside. I'm my mind I do give points for original work even if it's off balance.
It's way too easy to orbit around the work of a Master. And start a habit of karaoke woodworking.
Be original and improve!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I doubt too many here have formal design training.

Personally I find William and Mary furniture designs
unappealing, but they are design classics in the 
old sense. I'm also not as wild about Sam Maloof's
style as some people, it seems a wee bit overdone
to me, but that doesn't mean it isn't very good
design.

Also aesthetic considerations may take something
of a backseat when one is learning how to actually
build things well. If you made a chair you would
probably make something kind of clunky for the
first time out… I'm a few chairs in and experimenting
with more refined lines than the first ones.

It's tempting to overdo things sometimes, like use
a lot of contrasting woods going for a bold look. 
Sometimes such things work well and sometimes
it looks like the builder tried too hard to construct
drama.

In the eye of the beholder, always. The more furniture
you look at the more insightful you'll become about
what works really well for you aesthetically and 
what doesn't.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't post any of my work. I know it is not perfect. I don't try to impress anyone. I just do woodworking for my own personal satisfaction. When I do post, it's to try to help others based on my own experience. I don't build fine furniture. My projects are usually utilitarian or "shop" projects or scale model trains. I have seen some really fine examples of model trucks on LJ, but the trains I build are about 75% metal and not in keeping with an all wood world.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

I hate pallet wood and beetle kill pine. Furniture from it looks like from a Laurel & Hardy where they are living at the dump. If you must use pine, spring for Select, don't use #2 common.

Thank you!

I'm better now.

M


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

WOW….a lot of honesty….

Personally, I consider the source when reading comments. There are a few who offer criticism but never posted a project. I ignore those comments. I try to avoid negative comments and only comment on those I like or appreciate the skill level, or something unique.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

> An interesting part of this is that the design side is independent of the woodworking skillset, to a decent degree, and therefore not necessarily a huge obstacle whether the woodworker is a novice or expert.
> 
> You don t have to do a mega triple-blind inverted spliced drawbored dovetail joint to get the proportions right.
> 
> - gargey


They are partly independent, but design is still largely a learned skill/idea. And in woodworking design skills take a lot longer to learn than most of the technical skills unless you study design intensively. It takes looking at a lot of pieces and making and/or drawing a lot of pieces to learn the design. Long before you have time to learn that you will have a reasonable handle on the technical skills.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Who here knows the 'golden ratio'? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

M


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Great proportions, with a fantastic design element makes for the greatest

project ever discussed:








http://lumberjocks.com/projects/97238#first-new


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

I must be getting better at woodworking. A couple of years ago I was in need of a project, so I decided to make an Irish Hearth Stool in cherry. Wife said we had no place for it, so I said I'd just make it and give it away. My brother said he wanted it (sight unseen). Wasn't perfect, but was pretty good, and when I finished it, my wife wanted it. Too pretty to give away, she said. So I had to make a second one.

Now I'm in the final stages of a child sized rocking chair. When I set up to make it, the wife said "I don't want it, so who is it for"? Well, I said, it's for the next one in the family that turns up pregnant. My brother saw a FB photo of it, and announced that he thought he was pregnant. Well, I doubt it, but said he could have it. And no sooner did I say that, the wife says "you can't give that lovely little rocker away".

So, other than now having to make a second rocker, I'm happy with my present skill level, and the wife now actively wants my projects in her carefully decorated home. It is interesting, however, that she never commits until she sees the first one. I think that's a lack of trust, but I understand, and it's Ok.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> I doubt too many here have formal design training.
> 
> Personally I find William and Mary furniture designs
> unappealing, but they are design classics in the
> ...


I endorse this point of view. I've gone along a similar journey before, but in something other than woodworking.

In terms of woodworking, I've only completed a few simple projects, have been working on another for a few months (not a big deal, I'm just very time poor). But am hoping to apply the principles I learned in my first journey to this one - at earlier stages.


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## simmo (Nov 23, 2008)

No matter what there is always someone better than you at something,
Regardless of your skill and taste there is a an amount of pride instilled in the maker by his or her efforts, a woodwork forum such as this exists as a place to express it, encouragement should be offered, I have sought advice and critique
here, a couple of acerbic remarks from some members can deter participation in the forum.

If you have Nailed it up or Screwed it up, post it.
Chris.


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## TMGStudioFurniture (Feb 27, 2016)

I think it's mighty odd that the OP doesn't have any projects posted, but thinks it's OK to pass judgement on other people's work. Why not just show us examples of your good designs? Lead by example.

I also think it's pretty odd when people think there is really such a thing as 'good design' or not. Good design is purely subjective, what is awful to one person is beautiful to someone else. It's kind of like saying one color is inherently better than another color, and people who like 'blue' are right, people who like 'yellow' are wrong.

A different subject altogether is what takes more skill or time to produce. This is much more objective than just design.

I've learned a lot from watching Antiques Roadshow about what constitutes 'good taste'. I've seen things that require a huge amount of skill to make, that are valued for much less than things that a child could make. They recently valued a vase at $40K or so, that was later identified as someone's high school art project in the 1970's. The 'expert' revised their estimate once that came out.

Here's a link to that 'design expert': http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/05/11/antiques_roadshow_mistakenly_appraised_a_1970s_high_school_art_project_for.html


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

The design comments are correct, in my view. Unfortunately, I'm an engineer with an engineering brain. I can copy something beautiful, but I can't dream it up. My brother, on the other hand, has an artists eye and can dream up all sorts of lovely designs. But his woodworking skills are not so hot.

My present approach to finding woodworking projects is to tell the kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews to send me pictures of what they'd like me to make for them. Most are rather simple, but easy to do, and enjoyable. And they'll be in use long after I'm gone. I like that (not the 'gone' part).


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## 44Dan44 (May 18, 2016)

Newbie with no projects posted yet so my 2 cents should be marked down on sale to what it's really worth…
I've been doing not much recently but looking at people's projects (thanks all for sharing them), my take is this, whether I like the design or look of something is sometimes irrelevant, I look at the work and think about the steps the maker took to get it there, I look at the incredible craftsmanship, it can be so skillful and I look at the piece as a piece of art. It's true different art speaks to different people, some speaks to you, some you say 'my toddler could have painted that'. Fortunately, you choose which art you are hanging on your own walls so take each project as something to learn from and you'll never go wrong, maybe you'd never make the same piece because you don't like the design but that doesn't mean you can't give a kudos to salute the work done to make the piece.
I appreciate every piece I've seen here and couldn't even fathom criticizing someone else's effort, I'd sure love constructive criticism to help make me a better woodworker when I do post a project but I'll be sure to ask for it in advance i.e. "How could I have joined this better" , "why did my corners end up wonky" etc. I'm sure some don't want that at all, they are proud of what they've built with their own hands, AS THEY SHOULD BE.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I look at some projects and think, man, that could have been perfect if they only would have ???
For most of the stuff I have seen my biggest gripe is grain orientation or wood selection. I guess none of that needs to be pointed out, but if somebody did, instead of just saying "great job", maybe their next project would take that into consideration and they would grow as a woodworker.
I hate to see projects that have excellent skills only to be ruined by something as simple as wood selection.
I'll just keep my opinion on projects to myself! Anyway, who's to say my opinion should count anyway, look at my projects, would you listen? :>/
That's my rant!


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> I think it s mighty odd that the OP doesn t have any projects posted, but thinks it s OK to pass judgement on other people s work.


Respectfully, I don't think it's odd at all. I have not suggested that I am producing work any better than anyone else's; were that the case I'd be compelled to back it up.

One can be capable of judging whether a coffee table is coherent in proportions, materials, style, etc without building coffee tables all day.



> Why not just show us examples of your good designs? Lead by example.


Years from now I'd like to be able to have the time to jump headlong into this. I've spent enough $ on tools, that's for sure.

I don't mean to trigger all this defensiveness, and this statement may do so, but being well read on good designs - whether its in styles you like or you don't - is likely to leave you much better equipped to produce appealling work than building stuff is. Anything can be extremely well built and butt-ugly.

I may regret how I used "bad taste" in the title of my original post. Although at least it got read a little bit.


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## smithcreek (May 24, 2016)

I'll be dang sure not to post any projects here.

my first things I built ( just a couple of months ago ) was drawing tables for my grandkids, butt ugly but they love em and couldn't be prouder. I went from that to a jon boat, again kinda ugly but they love it and had a blast paddling it. I know what it is and don't need a soul to tell me anything about my lack of skill, I know it already and admit to it freely but if someone says I tried doing this or that and had good luck with it I would be very appreciative of it, likewise if they schooled me on the proper tool for said task I would take no offence, that's why I am here….. to learn from those who have learned.

taste?? what I like is what I like and what you like is what you like, and I know I am not the only one here who sported a mullet in the 80's, I doubt anyone still does. tastes change over time don't they. some people go goofy for 3 legged tables and chairs, never seen one I liked but if something as simple as that brings someone joy who in [email protected]^^ has the right to bring them down, surely not I.

creek


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Here's a situation to think about:

Mr LJ uses some beautiful wood and spends hours and hours handmaking a piece of furniture, with excellent joinery, and more hours finishing it, and the thing will last a thousand years, and he's happy because he thinks it will be passed down in his family for generations.

But he hasn't paid enough attention to design, and it turns out most people (even his family) don't like the proportions or incoherent styles he used, and soon enough the piece is marginalized to the attic, and years later thrown out.

My point is, design matters.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

> I think it s mighty odd that the OP doesn t have any projects posted, but thinks it s OK to pass judgement on other people s work. Why not just show us examples of your good designs? Lead by example.
> 
> - TMGStudioFurniture


Yup. If you're going to post on the awful designs of posted projects, you better let us see yours.


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## 44Dan44 (May 18, 2016)

> at least it got read a little bit.
> 
> - gargey


Isn't that what trolls hope for?


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I'd like to see some of those trains 


> I don t post any of my work. I know it is not perfect. I don t try to impress anyone. I just do woodworking for my own personal satisfaction. When I do post, it s to try to help others based on my own experience. I don t build fine furniture. My projects are usually utilitarian or "shop" projects or scale model trains. I have seen some really fine examples of model trucks on LJ, but the trains I build are about 75% metal and not in keeping with an all wood world.
> 
> - MrRon


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Gargey, you are the kind of person i cant stand. where are your projects? where are your handcut dovetails? I am sure everyone could do better on their projects in regards to design. Sometimes a simple design is better than an elaborate one. as for criticizing others work, that is something I would only tell them if ask. post some pics , lets see your work.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I understand the OP a lot more after further input from them. I get it, but at the same time, don't care (respectfully). I understand that being well read on a subject gives you much greater insight into the history of where things came from and why.

It is, however, important to also understand that those were also other people's opinions and historical implementations of what "good design" was.

But at the same time, I still agree with others who say "who are you to offer design advise sharing none of your own". Why would someone be inclined to take the opinion of someone who has no reputation of producing good designs? It's a tough one to swallow. The term "armchair expert" comes to mind (not an accusation towards anyone specific, mind you, just looking at it from an outside perspective).


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Just let people who want criticism ask for it when they post their projects.

"Look at my pallet wood gizmo. Do you think I should have used pallet wood or sprung for some nice cherry?"

Otherwise just give him an attaboy and let him keep on keeping on.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have to mention a recent project that was judged to be a great design. My daughter texted me a picture this morning of my grandson with a toy he picked out to play with today. He was sitting in his car seat with it. It was a car I made out of a 2×4. It was cutely made and rolls very well.

Now, I have to admit that he has not made or posted any projects but he is a great judge of design.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Gargey, you are the kind of person i cant stand.
> - DirtyMike


Thanks Mike, nice to meet you.



> Sometimes a simple design is better than an elaborate one.
> - DirtyMike


If you think that I've been calling for more elaborate designs, then you have missed my point entirely.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

> at least it got read a little bit.
> 
> - gargey
> 
> ...


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## bruc101 (Sep 13, 2008)

OP
Personally. I admire and respect the woodworkers on this community be it a beginner to a master craftsman. Woodworkers are like women in a way…there's no two alike but 99% of them think alike.

I enjoy seeing a project come up and it's easy to tell pretty much what their level of woodworking is. The beginners don't need criticism, nor critiquing unless they ask for it other than dropping a small hint to them. A beginner needs praising and encouragement to help build their esteem in woodworking.

I'm not into the Asian influence of furniture, nor Arts & Crafts and Mission but, I have an appreciation for those styles and admire and respect the craftsmen that do and builds the furniture.

I enjoy seeing a beginner show his, or her, first project on the forum. Most of them are proud of their accomplishment and it's for us experienced woodworkers to praise the work and encourage them to move forward and ask for help from us anytime they need or want it.

My two oldest daughters are well seasoned architectural engineers, and now our twin daughters have just graduated college with those same degrees and all manage our family business together. NO 2 of them think alike nor do they design alike but they all work together as a team to produce the end product.

The same goes for our LJ community and I've wonder before, where would we be without our LJ woodworking buddies. 
I'm sure some woodworkers would give up if it wasn't for this community, and others would have to spend big bucks to repair something, but here again. LJ is also a master at solving problems for woodworkers, at no charge.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder…
.
Taste is all in your mouth.
.
And to the OP …
.
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OOPS! Almost forgot …
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## 44Dan44 (May 18, 2016)

> Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder…
> .
> Taste is all in your mouth.
> .
> ...


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Sounds like the concensus view is that a lot of cheerleading and minimal criticism is called for in order to promote an inclusive environment, and to foster growth in the number of woodworkers and forum participants.

Which is just fine. It's an etiquette I'm willing to conform to.

It also comes with trade-offs. I'm not afraid of discussing such massively controversial and sensitive topics (but apparently it turns some people into dicks).


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## 44Dan44 (May 18, 2016)

Some didn't get turned, they already were.

ETA: I should be more clear, I mean you OP


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Not much can be added to this that has not been already said. Except my personal views. I consider myself a wood worker. I work with wood and make projects. Quite a few for myself but some I sell. I look back at some of my early projects and see where I have improved in design, style, finish and joinery. Are all my projects perfect? No way. But with the kind and encouraging comments I receive I continue to do wood work and strive to improve. I have no problem with constructive criticism at all. I have received many of such. If I did no post my projects, I would not get any feed back from anyone. If all I posted was "perfect projects in design and skill" I would probably not have a project on here. I am my harshest judge!

"A lot of the projects I see posted look like they took a lot of skill to produce, but also look horrible overall, due to poorly chosen design proportions, style miss-matches, and color color/material mismatches."

I think the above is quote says a lot about the comments you would make. A bit harsh using "horrible" as a comment. 54 posts in 44 days but no examples of YOUR work. Mine are up for review any time you wish to look. But they are not perfect, just the best I can do at the point in skill I am at.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

This sounds like a thread that DVK ,or whatever name he is using at the moment, would start up…...


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Yeah, I haven't come close to completing anything since I joined. I don't have time to take pictures and upload them, either. I have an infant child and work 60-70 hrs a week.

I continue to be bewildered by why some of you think my woodworking skills or lack thereof have anything to do with the topic at hand.

"Horrible" is a harsh word but obviously not what I would say to describe a person's project. Or at least that was obvious in my head.


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## laketrout36 (Nov 7, 2012)

I've enjoyed the ability to tag someone's project as a favorite. Then I can refer to it quickly at a later date. If I have questions I surely ask that person. If I don't care for a project or topic I move on. For me it comes down to what I want to spend my valuable free time on.

I am grateful for those that have posted their ideas, knowledge, skills, hard learned lessons, projects, do-overs and end results. Thank you.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

I have two children, a full time job with that lovely 'extra time' (no OT, salary) and hobbies and wife volunteering me for projects. Time scheduling is not relevant. I have posted projects. Granted I seriously hope you don't feel the need to judge them because I am aware of many of their short comings, but I am also fairly proud of them as well because they are DONE!

There are people who post and ask for direct feedback, and most of the time those folks are trying for something specific or a new design and are working through that process. However, the vast majority of people are posting what they are working on presently. The skill level varies significantly but that's ok. When I post some of my stuff, I know where most of the mistakes are. I don't need someone pointing them out, I can SEE THEM REALLY CLEARLY. That said, it's what I was at when I posted. It's a nice record of where I am 'now' that I can look back on. From seeing other peoples projects, blogs, etc I can see where I might be at some point, get new ideas or even avoid some issues that poster had.

However, on the subject of feedback…. Let's try this and see how this thread went wrong.

Your base start here was from a negative standpoint. That's a fairly antagonistic start. People in a given community don't necessarily like it when someone comes in and starts out from a negative viewpoint.



> A lot of the projects I see posted look like they took a lot of skill to produce, but also look horrible overall, due to poorly chosen design proportions, style miss-matches, and color color/material mismatches.


Maybe instead, you could have gone with, "I see a lot of projects that look like they were designed by children in crayon". No, never mind. I can't offer a constructive sentence to fix that. Maybe just skip that sentence altogether next time.



> It takes more than a well executed design to produce something worthy of praise, in my opinion. The design has to be good too. But when I click into the projects all the comments say *"great job, fantastic, beautiful!"*


Perhaps, "Bad design should never be encouraged. Encouraging people to post positive comments to things they like, or comments remarking on an individuals project who has been in the community a while and has improved is bad." Nooooo, no… No, never mind. I can't offer a constructive sentence to fix that. Maybe just skip that sentence altogether next time.



> Do many woodworkers have bad taste? Or does the LJ s community frown upon criticism?


WHAT THE HELL! Seriously, welcome to the community. Let's start kicking the dog now? Because so far that's my impression.



> Here s the thing:
> 
> People will be more reluctant to post projects if they fear critical commentary. *But the flip-side is *that I think there are a lot of instances were people are getting positive feedback on things, but would benefit more in the long run from comments on why the look or feel of something is "off."
> 
> ...


Building a community starts with positive constructive goals. Starting from a negative stand point and doubling down…. that doesn't build an open welcoming community. Granted, there are design communities out there that thrive on that sort of thing, but those going in know what they are getting into and why. Your entry here, judging by the thread was sort of a slap in the face.

This community has a wide variety of skill levels. Perhaps instead of your opening post here, you could have gone more with something like this.
"What sort of resources are out there that we can bring to the LJ community to improve awareness of design? How can we build and add this to the LJ community?"

Really, in order to carry this sort of thing out, you also need to be posting projects, answering questions with good answers, participating and develop your own reputation in the community by being helpful, etc. I've improved a lot and see tons of room from improvement and areas where I am lacking in skills, etc. Heck, being on LJ has introduced me to areas I hadn't even known existed and at least pointed me in a direction I needed to learn about to improve.

My own taste has evolved. There are things in the past I have built or see other people make that are perfectly serviceable or really well implemented that I wouldn't do because I am me. This doesn't detract from their value as a project, merely that I would try and do it differently. Many of these projects have one thing in common. They are DONE as opposed to so many of my projects which are not. They are done! Presumably their maker learned something from it. Presumably the project serves a purpose and the recipient is happy. While it will be nice to think of some project of mine being used long after I am gone, it's fine if it is only used for the time it is used.

I have a huge list of favorited projects for me to go look at. Some were for the design, others the idea, some merely for an element of it I thought excellent and still more for the project description, experience and instructions. It's a huge learning resource for me. You can also look at someone else's favorites and maybe find something you like you missed or was posted years ago. It's another cool resource most miss.

Welcome to the community, I see from your post about the scrub plane you learned something value and gained positively from the community as well. Honestly, I don't have a scrub plane. I may try the first suggestion since I have no budget either so I too learned something in that thread. Best of luck here in the future.


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## fuigb (Apr 21, 2010)

> I can think of analogs: A Pontiac Aztec, or a guy who wears a striped shirt with a striped tie and striped suit. It just doesn t work.
> 
> - gargey


Aztec, a design that tested very well with certain demographics and still supports online fan groups. The point: OP is attempting to quantify the subjective, that which cannot be measured objectively, and that is a clear case of stutter-stop logic. If you like something then fine. Don't like? Your prerogative. But to impose an ascetic value as s universal truth…? Please. And mods, I want my two minutes back


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## jeffswildwood (Dec 26, 2012)

Steven (sepeck) well said.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I found the writing in the original post to be awkward and a out of proportion. I did a little editing-for constructive purposes only.

A lot of the projects I see posted look like they [took] *required* [a lot of] skill to produce, but also look [horrible] *awkward* overall, due to poorly chosen [design] proportions, style [miss] *mis*-matches, and color [color/] or material mismatches.

It takes more than a well executed design to produce something worthy of praise, in my opinion [makes no sense given the above comments all about design]. [The design has to be good too.] *Good design, top quality materials, and good craftsmanship are all required for a top-notch project, [. But], but* when I click [into] *on* the projects all the comments say ["great job, fantastic, beautiful!"] *"great job," "fantastic," "beautiful!" when all three elements are not present.*

Do many woodworkers have bad taste? Or [does the LJ's community] *do members of the LJ's community* frown upon criticism?

Here's the [thing] point I'm trying to make:

People [will] *may* be more reluctant to post projects if they fear critical commentary[. But the flip-side is that], but I think there are [a lot of] instances were people are getting positive feedback on [things] *their projects*, but would benefit [more] in the long run from *constructive* comments on [why the look or feel of something is "off."] *how to make their projects better.*

Thoughts?


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## BLarge (Aug 29, 2011)

I have some disaster projects that ugly as sin. Those were 10 years ago. Gotta start somewhere.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

> Do many woodworkers have bad taste? Or does the LJ s community frown upon criticism?
> 
> - gargey


It seems the answer is the latter.

I thought the OP was perfectly appropriate for a forum titled 'Designing Woodworking Projects'.


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## RichCMD (Jan 31, 2013)

My two cents:

1. Praise in public. Criticize in private. If you want to provide a suggestion about what should have been done differently, send a private message.

2. Some of us use pallet wood because we cannot spring for more expensive wood. Others are really more concerned about reusing and recycling than other considerations, and making anything useful from recycled wood is more significant than the fact that it would have looked better if it was made of classier wood.

3. I have learned a lot and gotten great ideas from looking at other projects that others have posted. I enjoy looking at the projects just to see what others are doing.

4. Perhaps a better way to promote better design is to start a forum post or a blog on design. Post some pictures of designs you think are good and explain why they are good.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

There's a little something missing in the replies to this ummm. awkward original post. TIME - it takes time to look at and make comments on projects. There are literally 1,000's of projects posted. I've probably eyeballed most of them. But if I do much more than a short "i like this" or "I like the elegant line of the legs." yada yada …I'd be typing until I'm 1,000 years old - just can't do it (I do have some of the magic sorcerer' stone to spare if you'd like some). I know how busy most of us are - we simply can't type a comment of any sort to every project/post that you read.

When someone takes the time to jot down a "i like the….." makes me feel good. I don't think we are looking for every LJ to view our projects and comment on them but when they do - you can't really go wrong with that. (exceptions of course for the trolls who don't like anything other than being mean.)

As far as I'm concerned if someone new to WW'ing posted that 2×4 that she/he made into a 1×2 that's okay with me. In the same sense, if someone posted something that blows everyone's mind's (i.e Gary K's [RIP] amazing boxes I'm okay with that as well.

Not sure if I made my point very well - hard day at the office is clouding my thinking cap - so forgive me - but it's my two cents and hope it helps in some way to muddy up the internet with more fluff.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

CharlesA,
Great job. Fantastic, beautiful post!


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## DwightC (Apr 10, 2016)

Gotta come to the defense of the OP. And I think whether someone has posted projects is utterly irrelevant-we're talking about woodworking, not combat, guys. Lighten up.

The absence of decent design critiques is a weakness of this website. But I don't think you could effectively moderate critiques on the available bandwidth-it's a deficiency in the medium, not the community. The ad hominem potshots already taken in this thread show that (to me).

I have taken a couple of design courses (one in 3D design, one focused on Furniture Design) and participated in dozens of instructor moderated critiques (on both ends of the process). It's really hard in that controlled setting to keep a critique constructive and honest, on track and supportive. In this one, I'd think it would be impossible.

Cheerleading serves a purpose. Accept it for what it is.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I don't look at member projects much… usually only if 
somebody makes a main forum post about something
I find myself learning from.

I come from an older generation that got started
in woodworking before the internet so what I have
in my mind is mostly professional-style work 
pictured in books and magazines.

I try to encourage people to stick with it
and try things out.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Posting a project is much like making a fine meal as presentation is just as important as the ingredients.

I feel that many of the projects posted may not be exquisitely photographed but then most are hobby woodworkers and not professional photographers.
Most of the time I make positive comments, after all most woodworkers know where they have made mistakes, at least I do.

We as hobby woodworker all strive to create and present our projects as well as the professionals do! Some do and some don't!


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

I'm new to woodworking and haven't posted any projects yet. When I do, I sincerely hope that it gets criticism. I want to get better and improve. I will want your feedback and that's why I'll be posting. If you skip over my project because it's terrible and choose not to comment, because you don't want to hurt my feelings…what's the point of being in the community? You aren't being nice, you're being non confrontational or apathetic. I imagine most people would rather have interaction over their projects than to simply feel ignored.

I only speak for myself. What I want my lumberjocks experience to be is likely different than others. I don't like bullies or mean spirited people. I don't get the impression that the OP intended to be one.


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

I hit the wrong button


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

In the online photography community, it's not uncommon to have a sub-forum where respectful, constructive criticism is welcomed/expected and some forums even have user settings that'll display something along the lines of "C&C [comments & criticism] welcome" either in the signature area or in the profile section under the user's avatar (some users go even further and grant others permission to download their original work, alter it and then re-upload it as a part of the critique process).

If the OP (or a like-minded individual) wanted to start a thread/forum similar in nature on LJ, I would bet that it would get some traction and would be beneficial to the participants. Alternatively, there are a few 'hang out' threads where regulars seem to be comfortable enough with each other to offer and receive C&C in the spirit intended.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> I found the writing in the original post to be awkward and a out of proportion. I did a little editing-for constructive purposes only.
> 
> A lot of the projects I see posted look like they [took] *required* [a lot of] skill to produce, but also look [horrible] *awkward* overall, due to poorly chosen [design] proportions, style [miss] *mis*-matches, and color [color/] or material mismatches.
> 
> ...


Childish!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Guess what, everybody has to start somewhere. Some do it at fifteen and others at sixty-five.

When in high school, around fifty years ago, I got little guidance from the shop teacher. Someone told me my shop project was still on display at the school, with a sign on it saying "If you built this, you've flunked." Ironically, I am, now, a far better woodworker than that shop teacher ever was. I was even invited to a prestigious art show across the waters based on some of my work.

Over the years, I've built a lot of ugly thing, but I've also done some fairly nice things. I find myself, after around fifty years of sawdust making, and a portion of that being my profession, still getting excited about new things I do or discover.

I see people starting out and evolving just as I and many others did. Some of them were very obviously amateurish. Regardless, I, from time to time, take time out to give a pat on the back for effort. Sometimes and afterwards, I even get to see their future posts reflecting the same growth others enjoyed.



> A lot of the projects I see posted look like they took a lot of skill to produce, but also look horrible overall, due to poorly chosen design proportions, style miss-matches, and color color/material mismatches.
> 
> It takes more than a well executed design to produce something worthy of praise, in my opinion. The design has to be good too. But when I click into the projects all the comments say *"great job, fantastic, beautiful!"*
> 
> ...


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Perhaps he was really only try to ask for simple advice, such as:
How and when is it appropriate to give constructive criticism? 
Instead he elevated himself and his opinions above those with whom he disagrees and basically insulted most of us in the process.

Ironically, he answered his own question with his own reaction to to our critique, though he may not have realized it. He's either new to how communities like this react to anyone perceived as a troll or he IS one and gets off on this sort of thing. Either way, we've made our point, he got his answer and he may even have gotten the joy of conflict that he may crave (?). How and how much he enjoys the site is totally up to him. If he does not enjoy people appreciating work he hates, who cares. If he truly turns out to be a troll, we can simply choose not to participate in his game.

He's new to the community and I hope he comes to appreciate what LJ really is a-a place for people who love to share and learn anything woodworking, and by that I do not mean what he wants them to learn. If he really does like woodworking he will stick around. If he doesn't, his loss. We've critiqued his style, how he designed his question and the overall aesthetic of how he thinks so it is probably time to cut Mr Gargey some slack.

BTW, welcome to Lumberjocks gargey!

Clicking the unwatch topic button now.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I posted earlier in the thread. Much earlier. In many cases, what's posted here are "objects" that serve the poster's need and aren't meant for resale. They've gotten thru it to completion, and though they, more than anyone here, understand it's shortcomings and errors, feel a sense of satisfaction in the completion and the purpose it will serve. It's virtually pointless to critique something such as that based on aesthetics as it is serving the purpose for which it was intended. If, on the other hand, the "object" was produced with the intent to sell it or produced on commission, well then that's a different story as the client that commissioned it, has the final say as to whether or not it met their expectations and needs.

LJs is a support group for some odd addictions (to the general non-woodworking public), a place to explore and share ideas, to learn the do's and don'ts and the why's and how's in the nuts and bolts of the craft. It's really not a place to get into concept and execution of design. That's a very different place in a very different setting. IMO

If I click on a project and it either doesn't interest me or I say to myself "what were they thinking", I don't comment. I don't see how that would serve any good purpose here. If they were in a school where that was the focus of their investment, well then they would deserve the critique. That was their purpose in attending - to understand where their abilities lay and how they may enhance them. Silence, sometimes is the harshest criticism.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

It takes a lot of bad designs and poorly-executed projects to achieve mastery of any skill. Good design can be as difficult to learn as actual woodworking. So yes, there are many lousy projects photographed then displayed to the public.

What's key is continuing improvement. The level of critique necessary to help a person with this is difficult to do over the internet. It can be done but would require a great deal of time with back and forth communication. It's also easier to do in a two-person exchange (as in a student/master arrangement). Having too many people critiquing at the same time would blur the lines between objective evaluation and subjective opinion.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Gotta come to the defense of the OP. And I think whether someone has posted projects is utterly irrelevant-
> - DwightC


I disagree and here's why … When a person takes their work public they are opening themselves to criticism. Now some change their mind and delete their projects and go away. But deep down you know that if your work goes public there is a possibility of negative feedback and you are accepting that risk (even if later you change your mind). A person who criticizes without exposing their own work (besides being a turd) is not allowing a context for the criticism. It's not a two way conversation. Not all criticism is useful. If this Gargey person comes and tells me my proportions are wrong or wood selection is poor; I have no context for considering their opinion because their own work is hidden. Now if Gargey had projects I could look and see, 'ah, Gargey is cubist, and only appreciates blockiness.' Or maybe Gargey is a believer of phi and nothing else. Or maybe Gargey is a convert of Walker/Tolpin and hates my table because it's not pecker tall and 5 hands wide, or whatever. Or maybe Gargey has never done anything and he is a mean spirited baboon that hates everything. We don't know.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Me thinks you presume a bit too much, Rick. Some really are proud of work that might be at a level we left years ago. Similarly, while I do pretty well on many things, I see the work of others that belongs in a museum, and pales mine. Should I not post mine then?

Most of us are quite good at criticizing our own work. Still, if learning and proud of what we've designed and put together, were not posting it to collect criticism. As others noted, most are aware of their deficiencies in our abilities and even our equipment. We may just need a pat on the back to coax us on to new heights.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

When my kids were growing up and drawing with crayons, I didn't critique their work - even though mom was green, the dog was blue and the house was tilting sideways. To them, it was a masterpiece.

Cheers,
Brad


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

@gargey
Given your ideas of correct proportions and style are the only correct ones.

Explain Picasso.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

The time it took me to read through this post to this point, and to comment is shop time I'll never get back.
If the same amount of time had been put in actual "productive and constuctive" work in the shop, garage, 
basement or wherever, I could've had my next project preped and laid out. So to the OP please don't come here
with the excuse you don't have time for woodworking because of bla bla reasons.
Just do it!
My point is you seem to have the time to critique you opinion with words but have excuses for the lack of projects
for us to critique.


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## AussieWoodenModels (May 25, 2016)

I have been an woodworker since I left school many years ago, even though I grew up on an Australian Farm, I preferred working with wood instead of driving a tractor in ever decreasing circles pulling some implement !!
I have had my share of mistakes, & projects that have gone horribly wrong during that time.
Nowadays, I still get the occasional disaster even though I try hard not to, as I now have clients Australia-wide, & even in New Zealand as I design & custom Build Wooden Model Big Rigs & Road trains. I have viewed heaps of other peoples workmanship over the years too,- some was top of the class, some dull & boring. Have learnt one thing over the years though,- when viewing someone else's work,- allow for their limitations,- for they may not have the machinery that I have, or maybe are young & starting out, or perhaps they have a disability, or or getting on in years & not as good as they used to be, or perhaps they have no sense of design or design balance, ( applies to numerous other skills besides woodworking !! ).

Roger.


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## Mojo1 (Jan 13, 2011)

I cant criticize because all my projects are worse than what I see here! ,


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks muleskinner, DwightC, WilliamMSP…

The posts I've already made articulate counterpoints to the subsequent posts that I disagree with. I don't feel the need to rehash my arguments.

I believe that some of the people that have said the most mean-spirited and/or defensive things did not fully read or comprehend them. Whatever, it's never been my goal to be friends with everyone.

I think any group benefits from the ability to openly and honestly discuss a subject. If lumberjocks can't stomach the idea that good taste… good design… exist, then it is simply a less useful avenue to me than it might otherwise be.

The idea to start a different thread or forum for this is a good one. Why "Designing Woodworking Projects" isn't the right one is beyond me.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

It seems that the way to get valuable feedback is to show the piece to a trusted fellow woodworker in person. Too much is lost when only posting a few photos.

If ten people say "attaboy" and one questions your design, how do you react to that - especially if there is no way to view the work of that one person?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

What to do? What to do?
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/163410
Do you critique his design and tell him his table is going to break, or do you let him make it, post it, and tell him good job?


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

> Gotta come to the defense of the OP. And I think whether someone has posted projects is utterly irrelevant-we re talking about woodworking, not combat, guys. Lighten up.
> 
> The absence of decent design critiques is a weakness of this website. But I don t think you could effectively moderate critiques on the available bandwidth-it s a deficiency in the medium, not the community. The ad hominem potshots already taken in this thread show that (to me).
> 
> ...


Well said. I don't agree with the original poster for the reasons I posted in the first page of reply's but I also don't agree with the tone this thread has taken since than. It showcases just how dangerous anonymous faceless criticism really is and how difficult it is to give constructive criticism in that environment. Even if you did post constructive negatives about a project others would take those comments and use them as ammunition to devolve every project post into a flame war. My opinion is discussion about design elements belong in a separate non specific discussion about such.



> What to do? What to do?
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/163410
> Do you critique his design and tell him his table is going to break, or do you let him make it, post it, and tell him good job?
> 
> - jbay


I think there is a huge difference between giving design advise on something in the drawing stages when the poster reaches out for such and giving it on a finished piece that is being displayed don't you?


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

^ +2

The original post may not have been well worded, but the basic question is legit. As I read the OP, it translated in my head to: Why do the project posts on Lumberjocks get almost all supportive and positive replies and not much in the way of criticism? It's a fair question from someone new to the site that may have been on other forums that were very negative. Some of the replies since then are extremely harsh and uncalled for.

Another thing to think about. Maybe one of the reasons that comments on many projects are overwhelmingly positive is that the questions, problems and dilemmas have been hashed out on another thread or two already. I know that's the case for me. My last furniture project had progress pics posted in an ongoing thread and I got advice and critiques from the other LJ members that frequent that thread and that I've gotten to know a little bit. When the final project was posted, those same people chimed in with support because they knew the struggles that had been overcome. By the time the project post went up, all the other stuff had already been said.


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## CincyRW (Nov 18, 2013)

Gargey - I understand your question. Personally, I would love constructive feedback about the "design" of my work. I see this as just one element of a successful project - no more or less important than how tight my joints are (but that's my personal view - not some universal truth).

For example, if "Bltinbkyn" (who appears to be an architect, and presumably has formal training and education in principles of design) says "Great work. You may want to consider the playing around with the Golden Ratio or rule of Thirds in your next project." - Awesome! Thats just as important to me (personally) as him telling me to try method X to get tighter fitting tenons. I care about how most of my stuff looks, but others dont…and thats OK too.

I've had no training or education in design. When something looks good to me, I know it, but I don't know "Why" it looks better to me than something else. If somebody is willing to help me understand these "whys", then great! I'll go out on a limb and say that "design" is a blind spot for many of us "hobbyist" woodworkers.

I also understand that design and one's personal taste are 2 distinctly different things. You can not like something, but appreciate its design.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> What to do? What to do?
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/163410
> Do you critique his design and tell him his table is going to break, or do you let him make it, post it, and tell him good job?
> 
> ...


Kind of sorta,
He is not asking for design advice though. 
I'm sure he thinks the design is great. He only wants to know how to attach the leg to his design.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

> What to do? What to do?
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/163410
> Do you critique his design and tell him his table is going to break, or do you let him make it, post it, and tell him good job?
> 
> - jbay


Well, you certainly go with the OP method of sarcastic comments and zero constructive feedback ,thus demonstrating the actual goal and intent of the OP. Given that it is a brand new account, post and the name, I have suspicions that it was created and posted by someone just to be sarcastic or at the very least not constructive at all.

However, that 'example' is not the example the OP was asking about. 
The OP was asking how to comment on in his view 'horrible' projects. 
That was a forum post asking for how to feedback so feel free to suggest alternative joinery since they are asking HOW.

I have see questions in forum posts about design and methodology where there were good discussions. That forum posts first comment wasn't in any way constructive or helpful. If this is an example of what we can look forward to from the OP then I see nothing further to discuss. The OP asked a forum question about scrub planes and it generated a useful discussion where people provided helpful information. The current examples now… not so much.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

If you want to critique. Then critique.

If you want to give them a pat on the back. Then pat.

If you don't want to comment. Then don't.

Pretty simple if you ask me. Or you can just troll.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

That is a valid point. Here are a few possible responses:

(A) That table has all the earmarks of an amateur. It's break because of the poorly designed top and collapse because the legs attached like a grade-schooler built the thing.

(B) If you add an apron around the side, you can use it to further secure the legs, to insure they hold up over years of use. Stress on the legs is, of course, always a problem when we drag furniture from place to place, and that tends to happen, sooner or later.

Once you are sure your support system is sound, you can use a tempered glass top for a smooth surface that doesn't detract from all the work you did. With a bit of planing, the glass can rest on portions of the turning, to inure it is well supported.

(C) Burn the damn thing. I don't like spindle work. It's been done by everyone else too many times.

(D) . . . .



> What to do? What to do?
> http://lumberjocks.com/topics/163410
> Do you critique his design and tell him his table is going to break, or do you let him make it, post it, and tell him good job?
> 
> - jbay


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm taking a break from creating lots wood chips with the Jet planer, working on my pergola, but this topic keeps rising to the top.

I'm not inclined to go back a re-read all of the OPs responses, but I do have a question. Is the OPs issue with aesthetics or means and methods of proper woodworking? They are obviously very different. The possibilities are varied on different levels. A posted WW project could have textbook joinery and the proper use of materials, but be a pretty ugly or uninteresting piece in terms of visual appeal. The exact opposite could also occur.

I think we do see comments on the correct use of materials and joinery on some projects, but generally the opinions aesthetics are not offered. Is this what the OP is looking to discuss? Maybe I missed the point.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

The way I took it was that the OP was merrily asking whether or not critique should be given, 
maybe concerning design more than aesthetics?

My final comment is,
I think you should be able to give any critique you want without getting jumped on by anyone. 
The Poster can do what he wishes with the information given.

Internet requires thick skin, if your feelings are going to get hurt because of what someone else thinks then don't post.

I'm in the camp that no matter what critique is given the poster will evaluate it and grow from it one way or another.

(Unwatch)


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Me thinks you presume a bit too much, Rick. Some really are proud of work that might be at a level we left years ago. Similarly, while I do pretty well on many things, I see the work of others that belongs in a museum, and pales mine. Should I not post mine then?
> 
> Most of us are quite good at criticizing our own work. Still, if learning and proud of what we ve designed and put together, were not posting it to collect criticism. As others noted, most are aware of their deficiencies in our abilities and even our equipment. We may just need a pat on the back to coax us on to new heights.
> 
> - Kelly


I don't feel like my post implied that people shouldn't post their work, I definitely didn't mean to imply that. I have posted things that some people wouldn't want to show off, but to me there is some value in everything. My intended point is that criticism can be valuable but can also be cheap. Cheap criticism is that without risk-criticizing anonymously with or without a display of your own skill set. Another example of cheap criticism is when people ask leading or suggestive questions without postulating anything that can be questioned in turn. And yet another form of cheap criticism is one we see on woodworking forums, questing the safety of an operation-it's sometimes used to detract from the project while not directly criticizing it. On one hand I agree with Gargey that criticism is useful (although it does not need to be negative) but I it needs to be a two way conversation among people who have assumed some risk by making their work public. *TLDR version, anonymous feedback is easily dismissed. *


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## ste6168 (Mar 12, 2015)

All these people criticizing the OP… You are missing the point of this post! It has nothing to do with the OP vs. the skills of anyone else here.

It has everything to do with the fact the responses are in line with the "thanks for participating, here is your trophy" mindset. He is asking why? OP is not asking why all of the projects posted are not perfect, nor why they are posted at all, he is simply wondering why, when a project has clear flaws, why they are not pointed out. I haven't posted any "projects" on here in the project section, but post almost daily to social media, and another forum I frequent. My work in nowhere near the quality of much the stuff I see, but I post to learn, and to share with others. I love when people make comments making suggestions, even more so when I didn't particularly ask. It gives me reason to think, and sometimes reconsider. I enjoy the process, and the end result, even though I know my stuff isn't perfect. Typically I pick out and post the imperfections that I see, I would be happy to hear what others think. Isn't that, really, what you post here for; to get feedback and opinions??

I also agree with many of the others "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "everyone has they're own style" - Yes, very true. OP is also not saying that if the work is not XXX style, that it is bad. He is asking, that when styles are mixed, or the design looks "clunky," or even more simply, color choice isn't great, why no one asks, or points it out.

I don't think its a bad thing to have some critiquing of projects going on. If your feelings get hurt, too bad. I am also the father who didn't think my 4 year old deserved a trophy for running around in circles and picking flowers on the tee-ball field.


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## smithcreek (May 24, 2016)

I could wright pages but I will reign it in:

most of us can swim, few could compete and we know it, don't need to be told.
taste as has been stated over and over is subjective, the guy who's design is getting blasted may love it.
personally I want critique and advice on joints, technique right tool for the job, ECT but I already know my skill level is pre-school and that my tastes are simple. that may change as skill level rises.

maybe I mis-read the OP's intent and if so I apologize profusely but it came off to me as arrogant and egotistical like that kid we all knew in school who always had the best whatever and would spend as much time as you would give him explaining to you why his dime store guitar was far superior to your Les Paul or Martin.

this is a serious question not sarcasm, I live in a rural RURAL area, no high speed net so I just get a few minutes here and there at work to read and from the little I have been here I assumed it was a family of hobbyist, was I mistaken?? 
I like the air here and need much mentoring but at the same time I don't want to be a hindrance or the " not him again " guy.

thanks all.

creek


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

All good points, Rick.


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## ste6168 (Mar 12, 2015)

> this is a serious question not sarcasm, I live in a rural RURAL area, no high speed net so I just get a few minutes here and there at work to read and from the little I have been here I assumed it was a family of hobbyist, was I mistaken??


I would think your assumption is correct. Mostly hobbyists with some professional woodworkers mixed in.

Off topic: While I never could, because I work in Healthcare IT as an interface analyst/PACS coordinator/man of many hats, and am FAR better at writing HL7 code than woodworking, I dream of the thought of living with no (or very limited) connectivity. While I love my job, being basically on-call and connected 24/7, does gets old.


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

> Yeah, I haven t come close to completing anything since I joined. I don t have time to take pictures and upload them, either. I have an infant child and work 60-70 hrs a week.
> ...


You have to time post and respond to comments…

I would propose that the definition for a "good design" is debatable as well. A design might be "good" from a purely utilitarian perspective but look "butt ugly" as some have aptly described. One person may deem a piece that is pleasing to the eye a "good design" thus equivocating design and style. It is much like art, abstract vs obvious. I rather abhor abstract and minimalist art where others appreciate it. It doesn't make them wrong and me right, even though it doesn't "feel" right to me.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> I'm not inclined to go back a re-read all of the OPs responses, but I do have a question. Is the OPs issue with aesthetics or means and methods of proper woodworking?


Not to sound too harsh, but how could I have been more clear? Please do read the OP. I am talking about design choices and aesthetics, not quality of execution or construction.

Both matter, but they are in many cases orthogonal to eachother and can therefore be great or terrible independently of the other.

I also pointed this out at least once subsequently.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> It has everything to do with the fact the responses are in line with the "thanks for participating, here is your trophy" mindset. He is asking why?
> - ste6168


I believe a number of people touched on it above and the 'why' is just human nature. Some want to criticize, some want to nurture, some don't care. Sincere and useful criticism doesn't bother me at all but honestly, most of us here are not qualified to randomly go through projects and criticize the design choices of other people. Even professional designers often disagree on what is, or isn't, good design. Plus, if a person is an amateur, they may only ever build one dining table (as an example). What purpose does it serve for me to criticize that table and make them feel bad about it when they have to live with it for a long time? If they like it and functionally it works for them, how is that not good design? Now if the person is selling tables, and they are flawed, feedback can help them evolve but all feedback has to be approached the right way or the receiver will dismiss it. Which leads me to …

These two questions that were important enough to the OP that he put them separate.
Do many woodworkers have bad taste? Or does the LJ's community frown upon criticism?
Both are loaded questions, a type of cheap criticism I wrote about in the post above yours. The OP criticized the forum without offering anything of himself to validate that criticism. What is his experience that would suggest random criticism is normal, valuable, or desirable?


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Yeah, I haven t come close to completing anything since I joined. I don t have time to take pictures and upload them, either. I have an infant child and work 60-70 hrs a week.
> ...
> 
> You have to time post and respond to comments…
> - Todd


You're right, I should use a 60-second break at work to bust out my workbench and handplanes, instead of LJs. Good call. (Yes I am sarcastic sometimes. Big deal.)

...

Regarding *good taste*, which has come up a few times. Yes, it is *subjective*. But that doesn't mean it is entirely subjective, or random.

The Palace of Versailles; Starry Night by Van Gogh; Fallingwater by FLW; The Eames Lounge Chair & Ottoman; James Bond's Aston Martin (DB4?)...

While these might not be everyone's cup of tea, the vast majority of people can understand and respect their designs, and how they are a *coherent execution of a theme.* I could elaborate, but I'd prefer to get my point across concisely if possible.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I do remember reading somewhere in the thread that you amended your statements somewhere to make it more clear. So please forgive me for missing that.

I feel that aesthetic critique here, may be misplaced. Generally informed critique is done in a more controlled setting and in many cases by people who have the credentials to offer an informed critique. Have you provided an example of exactly the type of design flaws you feel would be worth pointing out and discussing? How about an example that is worthy of praise and exactly why it's deserving of that praise? Should I look for your prior posts on completed projects? Are there any to read?

When I post a remark concerning a completed project, I state why I was praising it. The comments are directly related to the finished product and not a general props for it. But again, I think the thrust of the site is for means and methods of woodworking and not the conceptual design aspects of works. That may deserve it's own sub-forum where people can voluntarily post their completed work for just the type of critical input you feel is necessary.



> I m not inclined to go back a re-read all of the OPs responses, but I do have a question. Is the OPs issue with aesthetics or means and methods of proper woodworking?
> 
> Not to sound too harsh, but how could I have been more clear? Please do read the OP. I am talking about design choices and aesthetics, not quality of execution or construction.
> 
> ...


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## todd1962 (Oct 23, 2013)

> You re right, I should use a 60-second break at work to bust out my workbench and handplanes, instead of LJs. Good call. (Yes I am sarcastic sometimes. Big deal.)


Lol. I have been where you are many times (too much kids and work). I remember when my son was 6 months old, I worked 60+ hrs/week 3rd shift, and was in grad school. I was in my 30s and I ended with the shingles because I was so worn out. A few years ago I was working 50+ hours/week and getting my PhD. Now I just work and do woodworking, but still have periods of excessive hours. Take care of yourself, stress can be a killer.


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> In the online photography community, it s not uncommon to have a sub-forum where respectful, constructive criticism is welcomed/expected and some forums even have user settings that ll display something along the lines of "C&C [comments & criticism] welcome" either in the signature area or in the profile section under the user s avatar (some users go even further and grant others permission to download their original work, alter it and then re-upload it as a part of the critique process).
> 
> If the OP (or a like-minded individual) wanted to start a thread/forum similar in nature on LJ, I would bet that it would get some traction and would be beneficial to the participants. Alternatively, there are a few hang out threads where regulars seem to be comfortable enough with each other to offer and receive C&C in the spirit intended.
> 
> - WillliamMSP


Exactly the same thing I was going to say.

I get the OP's point and also generally agree that the skill of critiquing is a very different skill than executing yet also very valuable. Food critics often can't cook well themselves. Movie critics don't make movies. Art critics usually aren't artists.

Artistic design skill of any sort is often best developed by:
- Having your own work honestly critiqued by a number of people.
- Critiquing the work of others (honestly).

I was "taught" photography by the multitude of critique my photo groups on Flickr back in the day (they still might exist, been years since I logged on), the improvements it led me to was dramatic; I now know how to take awesome photos reliably.

But, there was a special place for that. That sort of commentary isn't really appropriate for the general project area, as comments are by necessity meant to be harsh. A critique my project thread though would be cool and probably would be something I'd participate in quite a bit, the design side of woodworking interests me a lot more than the execution side.

I start all my furniture designs by collecting a bunch of photos of the general idea of what i want to make, then concentrating on critiquing each. Over time the good points that I seek start to distill into a coherent design.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

gargey, usually I do not respond to posts of this type, since the intent always seems to be to elicit a provoked response.

That you have done, in spades.

Let's just say that I find this to be one of the kindest, helpful, forgiving sites on the net, where the members actually try to help each other, through knowledge, elements, encouragement and yes, design. Unlike some other sites, (golf sites come to mind), where people just criticize and belittle people of lesser talent, this site encourages people of all talent levels to try harder, do more, gain knowledge and become better at their hobby/craft/work.

To say that you find some efforts not to your liking is certainly your prerogative. But do us all a favor and keep it to yourself. If you see a project that offends your obvious upper sensitivity of design elements, do us all a favor and let it go.

The person has made an honest effort, has had the courage to post for all the world to see, and certainly that is worth way more than someone like you who comes along and is willing to criticize, but unwilling to join that group.

For that…..you fail.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Tennessee, I think there is some hypocrisy in your post.

Anyway, I noticed the "warm fuzzy" nature of LJ's. I've tried to respect that.

You might notice that I have not put down a single project in this thread, though pointing at some as examples (of for instance, inconsistencies) would make explaining some of my points *much much easier*.

I can think of one instance where I've made a critical comment about a project(1) in its own thread, but I have almost exclusively avoided criticism because I'm not blind and I see the way things are.

That's why I started this thread (in neutral territory, in a design forum). To bring it up, to understand how y'all see it, to see if anyone else see's it my way, and to point out the drawbacks in case anyone doesn't realize what they are. Doesn't that make sense?

(1)For what its worth, in that instance I thought the errors were glaring (both mechanical and stylistic), involved a project that the maker was effusively self-praising, and involved a project that was in my understanding for sale by someone who trademarked his work as from a studio.


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## chiseler (Dec 20, 2015)

I have a lot of time in as a woodworker,probably more than most,and I joined this club with the hope of helping the novice,and learning from those more talented than me,because I still love it.This site is about working with wood,not about architectural standards and proportions,and I too know a thing or two about this since I've been doing this professionally for 38yrs. I think it takes a lot of courage and pride for these folks that are only doing this as a hobby to post their photos,who am I to criticize their piece.Now if they ask for help, then I'll try to be there for them.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

> (1)For what its worth, in that instance I thought the errors were glaring (both mechanical and stylistic), involved a project that the maker was effusively self-praising, and involved a project that was in my understanding for sale by someone who trademarked his work as from a studio.
> 
> - gargey


Dunno, man. I've sold mostly custom work over the years
due to getting egg on my face early on with attempts at 
spec designs. I ended up holding stock that I had to
later throw away or give away. I grew discouraged by
that and, despite the hassles, focused on cabinet jobs
because they could be pre-sold based on drawings, the
demand is extant, and a host of other factors.

The internet environment makes it easier to launch a 
cottage industry type product. Look at all these I-phone
charging cradles and what-not on Kickstarter… or look
at a few like I did and draw your conclusions.

In woodworking it can be real tricky to hit the sweet
spot where you can sell the work, make more than
10 bucks and hour, advance and enjoy the craft,
etc.

People who want to "go pro" have to find this stuff
out in their own way. I was ridiculously naive in my 
early days and blundered like a fool (and still do,
sometimes).

Only the creme-de-la-creme make long, prominent 
careers in design fields. A lot of people dabble and
just because an idea is being marketed like it's the
best thing since sliced bread doesn't mean it's selling
like hotcakes, to mix metaphors.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Loren…you do great work based upon your projects and great blogs. You are welcome to critique me anytime I post something. You have really added a lot to this site.

IMHO people who make comments about projects and have not posted anything should be very careful with their comments.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

thanks, man.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> IMHO people who make comments about projects and have not posted anything should be very careful with their comments.
> - Redoak49


I fail to see how posting (or lack thereof) projects has any relevance.

Cheers,
Brad


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I smell a Shrek.

Who cares in general. If someone wants tie two sticks together and call it art then so what.

You don't have time to post a project but you have time to start a new post whining about things you don't like.

Here's a tip. Don't look. I don't.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

perhaps you might show us some of your own projects
and design works

a picture is worth a thousand words

some give something

some give all

some just talk about it


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## mtenterprises (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm not going to read 116 comments so if I repeat something I'm sorry. Beauty or style or choice of materials, is in the eye of the beholder. And yes it's true it may not look just like YOU might like it but you need to take into consideration, as has been mentioned before, the various skill levels here the tools and materials available. People here, and people in general, are proud of their accomplishments and with each and every project their skill level improves. Another item you should consider is, sometimes the photographic quality, some things might just look a whole lot better in real life. Sorry but I just cannot help myself but now for my constructive criticism: for a person with 61 posts in 45 days, no projects posted, no blogs written where do you get off posting a topic such as this. I'm thinking TROLL! I'm thinking this was a topic best kept to yourself until you post something that you can be proud of that shows off your skills with tools and a camera..


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)




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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)




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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)




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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

You know what they say, "If it weren't for bad taste, I'd have no taste at all." 
On that note, I recently had to eat some crow. I've been a hobbyist woodworker for about 4 years (ever since moving into a home with a space to use), and still consider myself on the fence between beginner and intermediate. What I HAVE done is practice on a lot of joinery techniques, waited longer to buy a few good tools than several cheaper ones that will just "get me by", and learned everything I can about working safely. That said, the glue-up is the last step at which any of my projects look presentable, as I always botch it during the finish portion.
A friend of mine just got into woodworking a little over a year ago. His exerience is even more limited than mine, and he has access to fewer tools. But his projects exceed in both elegance and simplicity, and what's more, finishing is his favorite step. Needless to say, his end results look consistently better than mine, but he's very encouraging in offering up tips and tricks on what works well for him.
I know it's probably been stated above, but I think if criticism were to be offered here, perhaps it would be best to present it in the form of a conversation starting with a question: "Hey, I like x about your project. Interesting choice for y. Have you considered z?"


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Joe, are you trying to tell us to quit patronizing this guy??
Ha!

And for you, gargey…

Hypocrisy
hy·poc·ri·sy
həˈpäkrəsē/
noun
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; 
pretense.

Only hypocrisy I found would be in your statements. Action, not talk is the final definition. I can criticize a professional athlete/craftsman/(name your talent here), but choose not to since THAT would be the definition of hypocrisy. They have lifted themselves to a level above me, whom am I to criticize that level of accomplishment? 
As The Fridge said, "Here's a tip, don't look".

I feel that I can post here since I've posted almost 40 projects, and in most of them opened them up for people to copy if they want, and gave credit to other artists when I copied them.

And for you, Brad - we've tangled once before, and you ended up backing off a little.
But since you are closing in on 4000 posts and seem to have established yourself as knowing in all things mechanical, physical, electrical and in multiple mediums to the point where some of us have wondered how you had all that time to learn all that, maybe it is also time for you to post a project that would show off all of this knowledge.

In my career in manufacturing and continuous improvement, I found two major groups of people: Those who talk about improvement but not much ever happens around them, and those who do it and make change happen for the better.
About time for both of you to show us how its done??
Or maybe The Fridge is right…there is a Shrek here.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

> Let s just say that I find this to be one of the kindest, helpful, forgiving sites on the net, where the members actually try to help each other, through knowledge, elements, encouragement and yes, design.


Any yet 100+ members here attack the OP for voicing an opinion.
Even though his intent was to try and be helpful.

I think he now realizes that most of the more vocal members here don't like criticism, even if it's constructive.
On other forums, I've had people ask for advice, and then complain when they don't like it. So I tend to not say anything if the poster isn't asking for it.

Personally, I welcome all criticism. I just may end up ignoring a lot of it.


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

Maybe you should take the time to read his critique of projects he did post to. They are neither helpful, nor respectful, in most all instances. They are flippant comments that offer nothing of substance regarding the subject project. One does have to wonder what the OPs motivation was for this thread when they have neither shared their own work and have not followed their own belief that simple platitudes or flippant criticisms offer nothing to the project poster or to the LJ community.


> Let s just say that I find this to be one of the kindest, helpful, forgiving sites on the net, where the members actually try to help each other, through knowledge, elements, encouragement and yes, design.
> 
> Any yet 100+ members here attack the OP for voicing an opinion.
> Even though his intent was to try and be helpful.
> ...


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## whiteshoecovers (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm with the OP. I think most people have poor taste and an inability to design well and that's reflected in the projects shared on this site.

but…

I view this as a wood working site and not the place for aesthetic design critique. Besides, following my point above, this isn't the audience you should be asking for aesthetic design advice. I can appreciate an expertly crafted work even if the aesthetic is abysmal, as well as a well constructed utilitarian piece, and that's how I treat projects on this site.

If you want or want to give design advice, I am sure there are much more appropriate forums.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> One does have to wonder what the OPs motivation was for this thread when they have neither shared their own work and have not followed their own belief that simple platitudes or flippant criticisms offer nothing to the project poster or to the LJ community.
> 
> - builtinbkyn


I don't wonder.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

The forum is "Designing Woodworking Projects". If this isn't the place to discuss aesthetics (along with all other aspects of design) where exactly would a guy post?

I'm assuming gargey's 'motivation' was to start a discussion concerning the aesthetic aspects of a wood project. He didn't call anybody out, he didn't hold any particular project up to ridicule, he simply made an observation and offered an opinion.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

Regarding comments on someone's wood creation, I'd comment if I thought it was terrific. But, even "terrific" can vary. A fellow I used to work with had a preteen son that already loved woodworking. I gave the kid a few tools that I didn't need, and showed him a few things to help him along in his hobby. And the kid made me a birdhouse. It was rough and extremely simple, but it was at the top of his present skill level. I did NOT offer constructive criticism, but praised his work and gave him a hug. The birdhouse is now occupied. Everybody is happy.

To me, woodworking is a lot like home decorating. Walk into someone's lime green house that was decorated horribly yet lovingly, and what should you say? Should you say nothing, other than the "Wow" that escaped your lips, and pray they took that as a compliment.

Unless someone specifically asks for your opinion, say something nice or say nothing at all.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> I fail to see how posting (or lack thereof) projects has any relevance.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


What I fail to see, is why anyone believes that random, anonymous critique has any value at all. It's one thing to say critique has value but another to demonstrate it to be true. Have you ever asked for advice about something you knew nothing about and got conflicting answers? There is no way to evaluate the answers without knowing something about the source. I tried once with an electrical related question, I got five guys telling me five different things, all of them claiming to be right because they were an electrician, an electrical engineer, systems mechanic, etc. Turned out, they were all wrong. They claimed to be someone qualified to give advice but apparently were not. Advice and critique are first cousins.

Look at film critics, almost every single one tells you whether they like the film, preference disguised as critique. Ebert was different. Sure he would tell you whether he liked the film but talked about the film in such a way that you could decide on your own whether you might like it. Ebert could provide educated insight into what worked and what didn't; and he could (usually but not always) separate feelings of like or dislike from the objective quality of a thing. Most of us can't do that. Critique from most people is-they like or dislike then try to quantify their preference using terms and phrases that sound objective.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> What I fail to see, is why anyone believes that random, anonymous critique has any value at all.
> 
> - Rick M.


Perfect Example:









First thing I thought when I saw this was WOW, such a nice job, ruined because of grain selection.
Top 2 drawers are completely different than the bottom 2. Unit could have been so much nicer with better selections.

To a lot of other people, they think, and said, it looks great.

If I had brought it up, there probably would have been a big argument over how wrong I was and everybody would have chimed in to say they think it's perfect the way it is.

After the smoke cleared and the builder was working on his next project, there's a good chance that he may choose wood more aesthetically, therefore improving as a woodworker.

If it helped him improve in the long run, then value was taken from the critique.
If not than I was just a dick entitled to my opinion, but the whole discussion of wood selection would have gotten discussed which might have brought value to others reading.


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

> What I fail to see, is why anyone believes that random, anonymous critique has any value at all.
> 
> - Rick M.


If a critique doesn't carry any weight without qualifications of the critic attached, then it's not a very good critique, regardless; good arguments stand on their own merit.

If that doesn't convince you, just trust me - I'm a doctor.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

So do you have something we can look at and criticize?

I for one know there are as many options as backsides and styles as people. I also know that in the 60's to the 70's flaired pants looked dumb until it caught on and then it was worn by everyone and became a fad.

Style is here to day and gone tomorrow and one persons taste is not what another likes.

Now if someone wants and asks for feedback on what they are doing THEN give it otherwise just look and keep going.

I am quite sure if you posted something no matter how perfect you think it is there will be someone who does not like it or will point out some errors of yours.

Now saying this

Some just want to show what they accomplished maybe for the first time, but if we want to improve we ask for critiques and throw out the ones that do not go with what they like and take others and make the changes.


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> What I fail to see, is why anyone believes that random, anonymous critique has any value at all. It s one thing to say critique has value but another to demonstrate it to be true. Have you ever asked for advice about something you knew nothing about and got conflicting answers?


A perfect example of the value was posted above.

The first thing I thought as well when I saw that pic was that the top two and bottom drawers don't match at all, nor do they contrast either. Its very jarring to the eye.

I also think that the top is a shade oversized. A light arc in the bottom stretcher (so its smaller in the center) would add a lot to the design IMHO.

Conflicts are expected when it comes to aesthetics. That isn't a bad thing.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe the OP should set up "shop" on that Furniture Makers thread, and run a "juried panel" there…..


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Joe, are you trying to tell us to quit patronizing this guy??
> Ha!
> 
> And for you, gargey…
> ...


Tennessee,

I was gentle in response to your first post. I'm new, and I'm trying to be nice. But this post of yours is full of idiotic non-sequiturs and grandstanding.

You don't get the subject of the thread. You're not interested in getting the subject of the thread.

You have a career in manufacturing. That's great! You're continuously improving. Holy ******************** that's incredible! You beat Brad at arguing once, and you're reminding everyone of that. Oh my god, awesome!!!

I could care less about macho bull******************** or why you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts because they are sure to continue to be off-topic.

...

Hypocite: Someone who thinks criticism would be un-welcoming but proceeds to acts like an ass toward a newcomer.

...

BY THE WAY, TO THE REST OF YOU:

Still hoping to have some productive back-and-forth on this site. I plan to be at this hobby for a long time. Don't let my loss of patience with Tennessee put you off. I'm pretty open minded, but I do like to speak the truth.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Perfect Example:


It's funny, I had very similar thoughts about this project. And I see it the same way - that's the whole point of this thread - I think it would be a terrible shame if the creator didn't learn something more about composition for his (her?) next one. I didnt say anything because I was cautious, and I started this thread instead.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm in awe of the execution. It's an extremely impressive work.

To the creator: I'm sorry if my criticism is unwelcome. Since it's already been prominently posted here it is tough not to address it now.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> at least it got read a little bit.
> 
> - gargey
> 
> ...


I thought of DKV, Hinge, & 716 when I read the title and I won't be at all surprised if the OP posts in a similar, daily fashion. I bet this account was created within a week or so of 716 being booted, just as 716 was created about when DKV got booted.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

^ I have no way to prove a negative. If I'm not welcome here, I can deal with that. But I think my "behavior" is perfectly reasonable and inoffensive. I haven't criticized anyone except for Tennesse, I think, after he decided to start bullying. To me it's weird that some LJers seem to object to my ideas.

Regarding "it got read." I write for a living. Or maybe I 1/3 write for a living. But even if I didn't, does anyone post something hoping no one will read it? More participation in a discussion is generally a good thing. Lets keep it real…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> If a critique doesn t carry any weight without qualifications of the critic attached, then it s not a very good critique
> WillliamMSP


My rebuttal would be the part you didn't quote, that most critique isn't very good. Even from people with qualifications, critique is mostly preference, culture, and bias wrapped up in a package of objective language. Now add anonymity, open it to the masses, and you end up with reddit. I'm not saying critique isn't useful, just that random, drive-by criticism by people who risk nothing isn't useful. Take my Ebert example above. I know that Ebert was openly biased against some film genres. So when he heavily criticized certain films I knew to take it with a grain of salt, because he didn't like that type of film and often wouldn't pay close attention and would later get details wrong in his reviews. I only know that because Ebert had a body of work that itself was open to critical analysis.



> To a lot of other people, they think, and said, it looks great.
> - jbay


That was part of the point I made above. On the dresser I may have observations you didn't mention, or didn't notice, or wouldn't agree with, so what makes my critique better than yours, or yours better than the next guy? Nothing except context. If I criticize the guy he can look at my work and say, that guy doesn't know ******************** from Shinola. Or maybe he likes what I've done and decides to listen. Ditto for you. Either way, it needs to be presented properly or no one will listen. A year or so ago, someone posted a turned box with a very large finial on top. There was some polite discussion about the scale in proportion to the box and I believe he eventually replaced the finial with a smaller one. [note, I'm not preaching, or don't mean to. I have to remind myself every day of these things.] That said, there is critique and there is critique. If someone cuts their dovetails backwards on a drawer, that is one thing. Grain selection is a bit more subjective. If it's something important, someone will often mention it.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> ^ I have no way to prove a negative. If I m not welcome here, I can deal with that. But I think my "behavior" is perfectly reasonable and inoffensive. I haven t criticized anyone except for Tennesse, I think, after he decided to start bullying. To me it s weird that some LJers seem to object to my ideas.
> 
> Regarding "it got read." I write for a living. Or maybe I 1/3 write for a living. But even if I didn t, does anyone post something hoping no one will read it? More participation in a discussion is generally a good thing. Lets keep it real…
> 
> - gargey


Do you have several web sites?


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Do you have several web sites?
> 
> - RobS888


Not sure exactly what you're asking, but what I do professionally has nothing at all to do with the internet, and is not available for mass consumption.

Non-professionally, I don't participate in any other forums, although I have participated in (an apparently very different) one in the past.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well, just as a "Test Case" for the OP…...I'll do something that he hasn't…









And, to show how better lighting can help a post, this is with the "bad" lighting..









BTW: this Walnut Table made a Daily Top 3, and was given to a local church's pastor as a Christmas gift.

Although there were 20 comments on this post, where was the OP's?


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Bandit are you asking for a critique?

Regarding "Although there were 20 comments on this post, where was the OP's?", I hope you're not suggesting that any of us are expected to view each project posted. That sounds like a job. I'm here for fun and learning.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well, now is your chance to show just what kind of critique you would have put out….

Fun & Learning? Go read a few of the blogs I put out. Just to see if any of them meet your standards of such.


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

Posting those pics and asking for a critique has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

OK, since I have been invited:

I would not have said much of anything if that piece was posted in a "what do you think" type of thread.

1) It doesn't have any glaring flaws. It is generally consistent in theme and proportions.

2) It's not in a style that I love, therefore less likely to elicit a "that's awesome." Only because some have sorely missed this point, I'll state that style that what style is being executed is independent from whether it is well executed.

And I'd leave it at that.

3) If I was singled out and asked "what could be done better," then there are a few things:

a) I'd say the taper to that level of thinness mid-leg is a little off compared to the generally more robust look of the piece overall.

b) Do I see pocket screw holes? Hard to tell. Obviously not as good as if hidden.

4) If I was asked what I would do differently:

a) Elevate the bottom tray 2 inches higher.

b) Put the same beading or camber or whatever you call the edge you have on the top on the bottom tray. OR, have it seated within lower stretchers.

c) Keep the legs much straighter, and probably slightly thinner than the thickest thickness.

d) Have the stretchers that attach to the top (is stretchers the right word) be an inch deeper (i.e. extend an inch further down the leg).

e) Use solid cocobolo throughout (just kidding  ).


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

(b) sorry, didn't use any pocket hole screws, not set up for them, anyway..
(a). Legs are curved, but not tapered. 
Bottom shelf could have had the cove added, would have been a bit more work to blend the shelf into the legs. 
normally, I do not use wide stretchers/aprons. I also tend to cut away a lot of excess wood. Too wide of an apron starts to look ..Clunky.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> Posting those pics and asking for a critique has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.
> 
> - Ger21


Actually it does. It provides a way to show just what the OP would say in a critique..


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> Some didn t get turned, they already were.
> 
> ETA: I should be more clear, I mean you OP
> 
> - 44Dan44


Yep , he had a head start on any of us.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> That was part of the point I made above. On the dresser I may have observations you didn t mention, or didn t notice, or wouldn t agree with, so what makes my critique better than yours, or yours better than the next guy? Nothing except context. If I criticize the guy he can look at my work and say, that guy doesn t know ******************** from Shinola. Or maybe he likes what I ve done and decides to listen. Ditto for you. Either way, it needs to be presented properly or no one will listen.
> 
> - Rick M.


I understand your point, but I also think a person can weigh what is being said and decide for themselves whether it has merit or not. If someone chooses to dismiss critique because of the persons projects or lack of them, then they are shallow and are the ones missing out.

I have quite a bit of experience and have done hundreds of projects. If somebody doesn't want to listen to what I have to say then it's no problem to me. I don't feel I have to prove my worthiness in order to give critique. If anybody does, then they can disregard such critique. Doesn't matter to me one way or another!


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

> My rebuttal would be the part you didn t quote, that most critique isn t very good. Even from people with qualifications, critique is mostly preference, culture, and bias wrapped up in a package of objective language. Now add anonymity, open it to the masses, and you end up with reddit. I m not saying critique isn t useful, just that random, drive-by criticism by people who risk nothing isn t useful. Take my Ebert example above. I know that Ebert was openly biased against some film genres. So when he heavily criticized certain films I knew to take it with a grain of salt, because he didn t like that type of film and often wouldn t pay close attention and would later get details wrong in his reviews. I only know that because Ebert had a body of work that itself was open to critical analysis.
> 
> - Rick M.


Just so I'm clear, the distillation of the conversation so far is:

Point: Anonymous critiques don't have any value.

Counterpoint: Strong arguments can stand on their own merit regardless of origin.

Rebuttal: Yeah, but some arguments aren't very good and others are biased.

If that's a fair summary, I can't say that's a convincing rebuttal. We're not talking about pot shots. We're not talking about advice. We're talking about critique - good critique.

Pot shot: "that sucks, man!" 
Advice: "I would have done it this way instead of that way" 
Critique: "I would have done it this way instead of that way, and this is why…"

We're not disagreeing on pot-shots - there's no value in them. 
We likely agree on advice - it may not be terribly helpful without knowing the reasons behind it. 
When it comes to strong critiques, the reasons behind the advice are explored and the necessary context can be gleaned. If the line of reasoning resonates with the person on the other end of the critique, that's fantastically helpful. If it doesn't resonate, they can either disregard or they can further clarify why their goal is different from that of the critic. Maybe another round ensues or maybe they agree to disagree, but even this is not without value - alternate perspectives have been explored and we're one wrong answer closer to a right answer.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

I remember a thread a few years back titled…" Most Of You Take Crappy Photos". I took that as a challenge to improve.


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

The overwhelming theme appears to be that if you don't have any projects posted then you should keep your mouth shut? Does this go with just critique or is it applicable to offering advice in regards to woodworking? It's a forum. What's the point if conversation doesn't happen?

I still believe this to be true. Most people would rather their project be discussed, flaws included…than to simply get one or two "Great Job" posts and be politely ignored by others. As an adult, it's possible to determine if a critic has any merit in your eyes.

I hope I'm not tangling with anyone that I shouldn't.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Woodweb is the only forum I'm familiar with that
is basically dealing with professional issues.

FWW threads are not bad, but the site has an awkward
interface. So does Woodweb, for that matter.

I mean, get real man. I've been fussing around with
this stuff for 20 years and I learn something new 
every hour I spend at it. To hold less experienced
people to the standards of what I find personally
challenging at this stage in my woodworking career
is just not cool and doesn't help anybody.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> If someone chooses to dismiss critique because of the persons projects or lack of them, then they are shallow and are the ones missing out.
> - jbay


Guess I'm shallow but I've never felt like I was missing out. It goes both ways. TheDane has probably forgot more than I'll ever know about woodturning, and it shows in his project showcase. So if he gives advice, I listen, ditto for many other turners on the forum. Anyway, I'm kind of talked out on this subject. Have a good weekend all.


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

WOW.

Maybe the 'Correct Police' could start some sort of a 'Juried" system to give a 10 or even a 100 point rating on every project posted on LJ. I am sure every Lumber Jock [and Jill] would just LOVE to learn what their project if worth to the rest of the world.

But who is going to be the 'God-Like' judge?

Hope he [or she] has a Cast Iron shell.

Of course, the legit Lumber-Jocks may just leave in droves.

GET A LIFE
Ira


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Do you have several web sites?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


Do you work in furniture design?


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I believe that this Web site was intended to show a project no matter how simple or complex or exceptional or ugly and that the LJ community can choose to say or not say what they want when viewing that post.

The woodworkers on this site have different skill levels, beginning novice to seasoned proffesional, so any comment on a post, project or otherwise, is based solely on that skill level.

When a project is posted the viewers have the choice of making or not making comments which can range from nothing to critcal to praise, after all, how can a beginners improve their work or a professional get praise for their skill.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I agree with oldnovice. We need to encourage everyone to post projects and become more involved in woodworking. A critical comment, even if correct, will serve to discourage new people. The goal of LJ should be to welcome and encourage all woodworkers to continue with their work.

IMHO LJ is not a competition and there is no need to apply fine woodworking standards to most of the projects. For the professional, commercial woodworkers who post here, one can apply whatever standards one wants.


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Gargey,
I am a hack woodworker. It says so in my profile. I will never be a pro, I just enjoy it.

I work in a VERY stressful career, 60-70 hrs of week, and most of my patients don't get cured.

Therefore I woodwork to relax.

When the awesomely talented folks here take time to look at or even post about my work, I am truly grateful.

Maybe you should subscribe to Fine Woodworking to get what you are looking for, if you are not getting it here.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think many of the posts in this thread have made the same point that saying something positive to people who take the time to post is an encouraging thing to do especially for the new woodworker. Am I going to like every project posted ? No, but recognizing the builders effort is important to our online woodworking community. Yes constructive criticism can be done if it's done in a very subtle way ,perhaps in the way of a suggestion or a question such as "how would you think about doing it this way" 
Many of the commissions I have made are terrible designs, in my opinion, some because the customer wants it built that way and some because like many,I'm not a designer I do the best I can.
We all have categories that we need to improve in,some need to use better joinery,some need a better finishing regiments, some need better designs and so on,so let's just enjoy what we and others do and learn from each other.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

Be careful with your first impressions. When I first saw the dresser above My perception and opinion was similar to the Jbay's. I looked at it several time and the longer I looked the more I liked. The drawer fronts show a progression in figure from a fiddleback to an almost burl and the drawer fronts give the impression of being from rough lumber. Without the originators statement on what he was trying to show. I like it.


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

I think that many people are missing the fact that criticism isn't inherently negative/adversarial. Frankly, I think that it's a shame that some of the very talented and experienced woodworkers are dismissing the idea of sharing their knowledge via critique because they don't want to 'hold novices to their standard.' Good critique is teaching, it's passing on knowledge and experience - it's a gift, not a condemnation.

I guess that the problems lie with a) criticism being unwanted and b) the possibility of people being non-constructive dicks.

I think that the easy solution to 'a' is some kind of opt-in - if you'd like honest, thoughtful criticism, simply submit a project to a designated thread.

But how to deal with problem 'b,' the non-helpful contributions? Do we keep the comments contained within that designated thread and let the person that started the thread keep a clean house? Or do we encourage critiques directly in the project comments and let the maker of the project police their own? I guess that, on one hand, one person would have, potentially, a lot of work (unless banning troublemakers from a thread is an easy-peasy thing with this forum) and there's the potential for some confusing cross-talk as multiple projects are discussed simultaneously. On the other hand, encouraging the comments directly on the project page would leave the door open for repeat offenders and/or people not well-versed on the spirit of the feedback. Any opinions?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Old saying: "I may not know Art, but I know what I like…"


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I kind of like the dresser in question myself… but I think
it could overwhelm other furnishings in a room but
given enough space to be in it's kind of cool.

Traditionally a pro with resources would generally
veneer the fronts when making a chest with a fancy-grain
front, but if you consider the tradition of carpenters
building furniture pieces with what was available,
it's kind of saying "it's wood, and it's what I had
on hand".


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

Regarding the "Perfect Example". Have you guys ever used bookmatched/resawn lumber? I've had trouble with grain looking good between 1/4" panels as you cut through the thickness of the wood, the grain meanders, plus the kerf throws everything off a little bit. If this guy made his drawer fronts out of 4/4, it's amazing that he got such nice pairs. There's almost no way he could've gotten 4 drawer fronts out of a single piece of wood.


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## ArlinEastman (May 22, 2011)

Guys

He is voicing is opinion. I do know it had taken me awhile to ask for C&C when I first started and even now forget to ask since I want to get better.

I do think we need to ask for C&C more then we do, but we need to remember unless it is asked for it should not be given.

So to some degree I am glad this came up because I have forgotten to ask and now I will be asking all the time.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Regarding the "Perfect Example". Have you guys ever used bookmatched/resawn lumber? I ve had trouble with grain looking good between 1/4" panels as you cut through the thickness of the wood, the grain meanders, plus the kerf throws everything off a little bit. If this guy made his drawer fronts out of 4/4, it s amazing that he got such nice pairs. There s almost no way he could ve gotten 4 drawer fronts out of a single piece of wood.
> 
> - CaptainSkully


I think you missed my point. It wasn't whether it was right or wrong, or looked good or not. It was about opening up dialect regarding grain direction and aesthetics. Maybe another lumberjock would be able to take away something and learn something for themselves because of the dialect that followed. 
Regarding the dresser and everyone that likes it I have no problem with, it's a great dresser. I just used it as an example because it was a good project the would have been good to open up some dialect on. This goes back to the OP post. If nobody ever says anything, nobody ever has a chance to learn. It's not just about the project it's about eerybody reading the posts as well. 
Just my opinion,


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## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

When I read the op's post the first time, I took it he was a "holier than thou" type feller, but after spending the last 45 minutes reading through this thread, I don't see it that way now. When I got into woodworking, I was still trucking. That's all I'd ever done, & was good at it! My health was giving out, & my Sawbones told me it was time to get out of the truck. That was 20 years ago! So, my loving bride decided I needed a hobby. Never had a hobby before! So, we started investing in woodworking tools. I've Been driving a truck since I was 14! Dad owned 10. If I wasn't working on them, I was driving. I drove up until 4 years ago. I wasn't even 50 yet! My Sawbones told me you're DONE!! In the 20 years of buying iron, & it collecting dust, I had to learn to use all these tools! I'd never been around any of them! So, I started checking out books & taking them with me on the truck to read. Once I read enough I could start fooling w/my tools, damn did I create LOTS of customized firewood!! But, in between trips, I just kept learning & reading. Now, over 20 years later, I'm self-taught, & have most all the tools a woodshop needs. I'm more of a scroll sawyer than anything else, but I can do most anything I want to do. And no, I haven't posted any projects here either because I've always had problems with it. So, I've got a FB page that has all my projects on it under Sawdust Haven. Personally, criticism is always appreciated about my projects, because I know I'm not a pro, but I'm not to shabby at what I do, either. Hawk has asked me to demonstrate for them this year at the Kansas State Fair. That accounts for something, don't it? I kind of feel like this forum has a few that "are experts in their own mind," while the rest of us are just woodworkers. If that makes sense. Part of the whole deal is to learn, create, design, make new friends, & learn from your new friendships. Not be judged on your taste, or ideas. After all, we are woodworkers, and we're all going to have different thoughts & ideas on the same subject. Enjoy the day!


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

> I think that many people are missing the fact that criticism isn t inherently negative/adversarial. Frankly, I think that it s a shame that some of the very talented and experienced woodworkers are dismissing the idea of sharing their knowledge via critique because they don t want to hold novices to their standard. Good critique is teaching, it s passing on knowledge and experience - it s a gift, not a condemnation.
> 
> - WillliamMSP


Well said. I agree completely. The dresser that was shown is a great example. It's obviously a very well made piece, that I find beautiful. I'm so blown away at the craftsmanship that I wouldn't have even considered that it may be visually jarring to some. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the item, but it gives me something to think about.


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## DwightC (Apr 10, 2016)

Wow.

This is a helluva thread. As a newbie, let me offer a couple of observations. First, when a community is challenged, it's response is very revealing. This is true whether the challenge is inadvertent or intentional, by a troll or a well-meaning soul.

(Incidentally, and this is said as a veteran of many internet communities, OP is not a troll. That's demonstrated by the way he has continued to participate in this thread. The people accusing him of that need to either stop the name-calling or spend some time in an environment where they are being trolled. Lumberjocks seems blessedly free of trolling, to me.)

Second, I probably won't be posting any projects in this forum. I can imagine that the encouragement and cheerleading posted projects receive are really important to guys working in isolation and without much real world support. But I am fortunate enough to be participating is a very good two year woodworking program at the local community college and in my area belong to various woodworkers and turners groups. So I get plenty of encouragement and cheerleading (and plenty of critiques, as well-and, incidentally, the critiques are of higher quality in the training program than in the social groups).

Third, I believe there are meaningful differences between good design and bad design, that it's not all a matter of personal taste, to each his own and de gustibus non est disputandum. I'm sorry, but on this website in the last week I've seen (and commented on) a beautifully designed garden bench, and seen (and kept my mouth shut about) about a (c )rude clock that had, in place roman numerals or arabic numbers or other hour markers, letters spelling out F-U-C-K-I-N-'-L-A-T-E). Anybody care to have his granddaughter come out to the shop and correct the spelling on the clock? Defend it as Man Cave humor if you want to, but it's not in the same league as a gorgeous spalted wood bowl that's currently being admired over in Projects. Without spooling off into utter irrelevance, I think there are guys who are so defensive about being 'talked down to' by people who know what they are talking about that they end up rejecting the entire concept of knowledge, and when you go that route, regardless of whether it's paved with good intentions or not, you're on the way to perdition.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

A good subject that I have thought a lot about. Although I frequently crave some honest criticism of my work and advice on how to improve it, nevertheless I do think that positive comments are by far the most encouraging.

Some people are very good at giving constructive criticism while others, in spite of the best intentions, are not. I'm not sure about myself, so while I sometimes try, I mainly try to avoid any negative comments.

Ok, the results might not be so great in many cases, but with time most woodworkers tend to learn more about good design over time just by seeing what others are doing. I have watched so many new woodworkers on this site over the years become quite accomplished in a relatively short amount of time.

Everyone's work deserves some credit, even if it's just for the effort they put into it. I'm not one who wants to award a gold medal to every contestant, but to me the woodworking we share on this site doesn't have to be a competition and we don't have to be contestants. By supporting rather than criticizing each other we all benefit.


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## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

Mr. Dwight, in some ways, you have a valid argument. There are plenty of judgment freaks here, & they are quick to use it, good or bad. The name calling & arguing is a constant issue here. Regardless of the situation, there is always a competition of skill & expertise simply because this is the internet. You have to learn to pick out the ones that know what they're talking about, & those that are just blowing smoke. I'm a veteran of several different wood forums myself. There are a couple I no longer use because of the wannabe experts on them. As far as you not posting any of your projects, that's your choice. As I posted earlier, I haven't posted any either. I'm not afraid of criticism, I'm tired of dealing with the hassles of the site to post them. And you going to a two year woodworking program at a local college is a great beginning, but don't get the idea you're going to come out of school loaded with wisdom without much experience. I'm not able to judge you on your skill level, but I can on your approach. And speaking from experience, before you can master anything, you have to fail at it many times. Many beginners come here looking for answers, & more times than not, get shot out of the saddle because the hotshots here answer their questions with words they have no idea how to comprehend! Telling them they need to buy all these fancy tools to do something. Nonsense! Common sense, thought, & reading to learn to do what they want to do, they can perform most tasks at hand with very few tools, & at a low expense. I know this from experience, because I started the same way, & without the internet. Most get the idea that woodworking is something you can just jump into by investing in fancy iron. It takes several years to acquire a TASTE, LOOKS, PREFERENCE, favorite wood to work with, to learn the equipment, on & on. My apologies for the rant, but in defense of those of us that have worked our way through this "hobby," whether our likes suit the op, or anyone else, except the buyer, in most cases, is the important thing. And again, criticism is good to a point, after that, its insulting. Enjoy the day.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

> I think that many people are missing the fact that criticism isn t inherently negative/adversarial. Frankly, I think that it s a shame that some of the very talented and experienced woodworkers are dismissing the idea of sharing their knowledge via critique because they don t want to hold novices to their standard. Good critique is teaching, it s passing on knowledge and experience - it s a gift, not a condemnation.
> 
> I guess that the problems lie with a) criticism being unwanted and b) the possibility of people being non-constructive dicks.
> 
> ...


I think Bill has hit the nail on the head.
It is safe to say that NONE of us like every project we see in the Project section. Some of us dislike the design, some others the execution or maybe the finish.
On the other hand, it is easy to praise, so when we see something we like, that part is easy to say how well it is built, finished, etc.
Since there is probably no one person who is qualified in every aspect to criticize, and as the old saying goes, opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one, that waters down the ability to ever execute a decent system.

I personally like the balance we have right now. 
If a high quality project is posted, most people know it immediately, and can learn or ask questions of the builder on guidelines, aspects, process, etc. Almost all project posters will respond in kind.
If you post projects and people say little or nothing beyond "good job", it is still satisfying, and no harm done, even if it is just two boards nailed together.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> Do you work in furniture design?
> 
> - RobS888


No, my profession has nothing to do with design or furniture. Design is life-long non-professional interest of mine. I have an engineering degree but do not work in engineering.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Do you work in furniture design?
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


I'm trying to access if there is any reason to give your post any value. I haven't seen anything yet to do so.

Your avocation, should it rise to that level, doesn't confer anything special to your opinion, and lets not forget it is just your opinion. At this point it is no more valuable than mine.

You may have a stack of coffee table books on the furniture you like, but that doesn't make you an expert. I see lot's of furniture here that is awesome and the pieces I like, become a target or goal for me to strive towards. The biggest compliment I can give is to add something to my favorites.

I suspect you want to be able to unload on projects that don't meet your standards. Go ahead, you'll get what you deserve.

I still believe you are DKV and are just poking people in the eye.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Wow.
> 
> Third, I believe there are meaningful differences between good design and bad design, that it s not all a matter of personal taste, to each his own and de gustibus non est disputandum. I m sorry, but on this website in the last week I ve seen (and commented on) a beautifully designed garden bench, and seen (and kept my mouth shut about) about a (c )rude clock that had, in place roman numerals or arabic numbers or other hour markers, letters spelling out F-U-C-K-I-N- -L-A-T-E). Anybody care to have his granddaughter come out to the shop and correct the spelling on the clock? Defend it as Man Cave humor if you want to, but it s not in the same league as a gorgeous spalted wood bowl that s currently being admired over in Projects. Without spooling off into utter irrelevance, I think there are guys who are so defensive about being talked down to *by people who know what they are talking about* that they end up rejecting the entire concept of knowledge, and when you go that route, regardless of whether it s paved with good intentions or not, you re on the way to perdition.
> 
> - DwightC


That is the crux there, does the OP have any demonstrable knowledge? Based on this thread, no.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

here's a design/execution test for you. I just finished this cherry shaker desk, and I ended up screwing up the design in the construction of it. Can you spot the proportion/balance error?


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

On any forum, I take the approach that NOBODY has any knowledge until their posts prove it to me.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> I m trying to access if there is any reason to give your post any value. I haven t seen anything yet to do so.
> 
> Your avocation, should it rise to that level, doesn t confer anything special to your opinion, and lets not forget it is just your opinion. At this point it is no more valuable than mine.
> 
> ...


My inner psychologist thinks you're really afraid of getting punked by DKV (whoever that may be), and therefore refusing to maintain an open mind for fear of accidentally agreeing.

Point of clarification: I never said I was an expert on design or anything else.

If someone starts a "critique my work" thread, I'll participate and y'all can read or ignore my comments as you please.

Obtuse LJ'ers who can't stand the *idea* of criticism need not attend.


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## BigDogBiker (Aug 10, 2009)

I think praise nowadays is like a participation trophy, seems like everybody gets it wether they deserve it or not.

I'll take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism any day… We've gotten soft as a society and people need to toughen up. But that's just me.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> here s a design/execution test for you. I just finished this cherry shaker desk, and I ended up screwing up the design in the construction of it. Can you spot the proportion/balance error?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I (sincerely) am not sure if I understand your post, could you clarify? Are you saying that your final project deviated from your original design due to an error? Or are you being facetious?

Anyway, very nice looking desk. Good job.

Tough camera angle to judge anything about proportions (and only 1 shot), but if I would change anything, it would be a shallower front panel. That's not a flaw, it would just suit my tastes more.

Proportions isn't the first thing that comes to mind. I wonder about the drawers. A slightly larger gap all around each one (well centered) might look better? Some kind of bead or edge would accomplish the same thing visually, but would be less in keeping with Shaker design.

(Why? Because some of the edges are well-defined, and some are tight enough that it looks nearly like a seamless piece of wood, so the amount of "definition" is unbalanced.)

Obligatory P.S. Anyone that assumes that I mean for my thoughts to be taken at gospel is wrong.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I m trying to access if there is any reason to give your post any value. I haven t seen anything yet to do so.
> 
> Your avocation, should it rise to that level, doesn t confer anything special to your opinion, and lets not forget it is just your opinion. At this point it is no more valuable than mine.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## WillliamMSP (Jan 3, 2014)

> Obligatory P.S. Anyone that assumes that I mean for my thoughts to be taken at gospel is wrong.
> 
> - gargey


I wonder how many people actually believe that you're setting yourself up as some kind of authority. Honestly, I think that those insinuating something to that effect are doing so only to justify their distaste with the whole idea.



> here s a design/execution test for you.
> 
> - CharlesA


Nobody is talking about a test - it's not about right and wrong, it's a dialog, an exchange of ideas.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> I wonder how many people actually believe that you re setting yourself up as some kind of authority.
> - WillliamMSP


I can't control what people think, only what I write. I think some people probably think what you've suggested, but it was never my intention to imply that.

Do I think a fair share of LJ projects have needless aesthetic design flaws? Yes. But that's not a pronouncement of authority.



> Nobody is talking about a test - it s not about right and wrong, it s a dialog, an exchange of ideas.
> - WillliamMSP


Agreed.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

*There's a lot of skill and craftsmanship @ LJ's, but also a lot of bad taste…*

Judge thousands of people as having bad taste… you will get criticized, queried, & challenged and justly so. Especially, if it turns out you have nothing to back that "opinion" up.

But he has said he won't criticize unless asked (such a nice gesture on his part!), so it is moot at this point.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

> here s a design/execution test for you. I just finished this cherry shaker desk, and I ended up screwing up the design in the construction of it. Can you spot the proportion/balance error?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The shallowness is dictated by the amount of clearance I need with our office chair-so that's non-negotiable.

B/C I wanted the seamless look of the drawers with the face, I used loose tenons to secure the 3 dividers/spacers. When I glued up the middle one, I mis-read my markings and put in too far to the right. I realized it quickly, but the glue had already had a hold of the 1/4" thick loose tenon and it broke off. I had to make a quick decision on what to do so I put glue on the two pieces of the loose tenon (in the center divider and in the lower rail, and glued it right where it was. That ended up meaning that the left drawer is 5/8" wider than the right and the center divider is not centered by about 5/16" of an inch.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

> The shallowness is dictated by the amount of clearance I need with our office chair-so that s non-negotiable.


In case I was misunderstood, I suggested shallower (less deep) which would actually increase the amount of clearance for a chair.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

> The shallowness is dictated by the amount of clearance I need with our office chair-so that s non-negotiable.
> 
> In case I was misunderstood, I suggested shallower (less deep) which would actually increase the amount of clearance for a chair.
> 
> - gargey


Oh. I made them as deep as I dared for utility.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Judge thousands of people as having bad taste… you will get criticized, queried, & challenged and justly so.
> RobS888
> 
> Yep.
> ...


Ah, the true colors.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> *Do I think a fair share of LJ projects have needless aesthetic design flaws? Yes. But that s not a pronouncement of authority.*
> 
> - gargey


Wow!
Do I have this correct: you have no expertise, but can pronounce a fair share of what has been posted as flawed?

I think you should quite digging.

Unless that is the point.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)




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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

Here's my solution, I say we just post this everytime we don't like something.


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Ha


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

> Ha
> 
> - gargey


There isn't a day that goes by where that Simpsons quote search engine doesn't come in handy.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

There is a wide range of skill levels on any forum. Please respect that.

This thread is now closed.


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