# Bowl direction for rootballs?



## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Anyone here who can give a little guidance for turning a rootball and suggest the best orientation to use? My FIL had a medium sized Red Cedar come down in his yard a few months ago, and said if I'd cut it up for disposal, I could have all I wanted. I wound up with some really nice pieces to turn, and also grabbed the rootball which was pulled up intact:










I've since trimmed it down to a manageable size that I can mount on the lathe, but I'm not sure which way I should go about it. I had thought about cutting it in half lengthwise and getting two bowls out of it, but I'm thinking that they may wind up being really shallow due to the wild bark inclusions - so I'm leaning towards a larger end grain bowl out of the whole chunk. I've never worked with a rootball, so I'm not sure which way I should orient it for the most spectacular grain effects from the roots, and having a hard time wrapping my head around it. Hoping someone here who has more experience could lend a hand, not just for this particular piece, but for rootballs in general. Here is a picture of my piece rough cut and ready to go, and what I see as my two choices for where to place the foot:










Cheers,
Brad


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

Brad-

I'll start by saying that I don't have a definitive answer to your question, but since nobody has replied I'll offer this suggestion. Since your two options both use the same centerline, why not chuck it up between centers and start to clean up the blank? That will give you a better idea of what the grain is doing and if you are not happy with the way you have it chucked, you can always flip it around.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

I agree with Tung oil, mounting between centers would give you a better idea of what your working with especially if leaning toward an end grain bowl.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Brad, if you have'nt already split it along the pith, do so. Then you can tell how much you are going to remove to get a bowl without those contours that might appear shown in the first picture. You can have the option from going from bark to pith, or vice versa. "..."........ Jerry (in Tucson)


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

I like Jerry's suggestion too!

Good luck with it which ever way you go!


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Ok, I'm not seeing how I could split it along the pith. At the root end of the chunk, there is no one single pith, but a bunch of them where each root branched off - but I guess you are suggesting splitting it in half lengthwise like I mentioned in my original post. If I did that, I'm afraid that they would wind up being too shallow… and that the unique patterns formed at the roots would be somewhat lost.

I guess I will go ahead and mount it between centers - and maybe use Jerrys chuck plate contraption initially ;-)

After thinking about it for a while, it seems like the best pattern can be preserved by having the roots down at the base of the bowl (foot), but the inclusions and voids between the roots may cause problems going that route. If the opposite is done, with the roots facing upwards at the top of the bowl, the foot shouldn't be a problem, but I'm thinking most of the wild grain patterns would be lost. Ugggh.

I've tried looking at some videos and other instructional stuff on the web, but none seem to address orientation - just preparation and technique. I can kind of understand, as each one would be unique - but was kind of hoping that someone who has turned a few rootballs could give some tips based on experience.

Cheers,
Brad


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

After sitting and staring at this thing for a few months, trying to figure out how to just mount the thing, I finally got around to giving it an initial turning. I made a really spectacular bowl from a smaller section I got off the trunk section just above the root ball that looks like 'dancing flames' (wife absolutely loves it!), and now have finally got a rough blank from the root ball itself. I took the advice of just chucking it between centers and getting it somewhat balanced and rounded as can be seen below. Problem is that this thing is riddled with voids, cracks and some punk that I'm not sure can be overcome. I have started to try filling some of the areas with epoxy, but they seem like bottomless pits, and many wind up flowing out the other side and/or where i would have never expected it to.

I'm not sure if it's worth the effort or can even be salvaged. Due to it's length, I'm tempted to cut it in half and try making two bowls out of it, but the voids and cracks are not really in the right spots - so no matter what I do, I'm afraid there will be huge sections missing regardless. The patterns are gorgeous and I would love to make something with it, but I also don't want to waste a bunch of expensive epoxy, time and effort just to have the thing blow apart on me. What do you guys think? When do you say enough is enough and toss it into the fire pit?

Here is a quick shot of what I got at the moment:










Cheers,
Brad

BTW: I did use Jerrys chuck plate initially, which worked great for this piece and its extremely uneven ends. Not sure how I would have done it with just a drive center. Thanks Jerry!


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

It is quite a challenge. 
With all the rot and voids I see I would toss it and spend my time on something else. But then I'm not as creative as some people with these things.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Probably the best option is to do a resin poor/pressure set process to fill everything then make what you want.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Well, there is surprisingly little rot - it's mostly solid wood where there is wood. It's the voids and hidden interior pathways formed by the roots that is really causing the problems. I've been trying to plug up the leaks by doing relatively small pours and hopping that eventually it will clog most of them up, catching any escaping epoxy with tape when I spot it. It seems to be working, as I'm getting less and less seepage each pour. I would love to do a complete pour and pressure set, but I don't currently have the setup to do it.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

> After sitting and staring at this thing for a few months, trying to figure out how to just mount the thing, I finally got around to givin
> Brad
> 
> BTW: I did use Jerrys chuck plate initially, which worked great for this piece and its extremely uneven ends. Not sure how I would have done it with just a drive center. Thanks Jerry!
> ...


Well, shucks, Brad, aren't you happy that you finally got a chuck? Since inventing the Chuck Plate, I've never had any mounting failures until I turned some Texas Ebony. did 3 pieces in the last month, and had real problems. It didn't want to stay between centers while making the tenon.

When you do get this done, I believe it will be a gorgeous bowl. They don't have to be deep. Shallow is good. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> When you do get this done, I believe it will be a gorgeous bowl. They don t have to be deep. Shallow is good. ............ Jerry (in Tucson)
> - Nubsnstubs


I have no doubt you are right Jerry! I have dumped a ton of epoxy into this thing and still have a lot of voids, but I think they will work out in the end. This stuff is amazing - the grain pattern and colors are absolutely incredible. I have not turned Cedar before, and I read that it dulls tools quickly - boy does it! I have my PM45 out on the covered patio and usually work on it during sunlight hours, but the last few days, I've been turning after the sun sets. Last night I was absolutely amazed when I started seeing the random spark come off the tool! I heard that it has silica or something in the wood, which might explain it - but it sure was neat to see!

I decided to cut it in half though, as the full length would have been really hard to hollow out given my tools. Plus, one half just sort of screamed out it's shape, while the other one is FULL of voids and pockets, so I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to handle it. I've got both rounded and prepped to go, and am trying to decide if I need to give it a bit more epoxy before doing the big one. There are still some serious voids near what would be the bowl wall. It's also riddled with interior voids, and some have even been packed with dirt from long ago before the tree grew around it. No telling what I may run into once I start dishing it out:










That picture doesn't really do a good job conveying the colors and patterns in there, but you can see how they are riddled with voids and what my wife calls 'nooks and crannies'! These should turn out really interesting. As for the color spectrum in there, here is a bowl in progress of finishing that came from the section just above the root piece. I have never seen such an amazing grain pattern or color palette as this stuff has. I even did a google search for cedar bowl images and didn't see anything even close to what I'm finding - and this picture does not do it very much justice - it is so much more vivid in real life that it's hard to explain with just words:










If the root ball bowls turn out even a half as amazing as that one, I'll be one very happy camper!

Cheers,
Brad


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

That finished piece has some gorgeous colors to it, Brad. If it was close to this root ball you're currently working, I'm pretty sure it will be as beautiful.

You don't have to be filling it with epoxy just yet. Wait until you are near 3/4" thick walls. After it's hogged to that point, make a plug to fit the inside and then pour your epoxy. What are you going to do about containing the epoxy on the OD? ............. Jerry (in Tucson)


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> You don't have to be filling it with epoxy just yet. Wait until you are near 3/4" thick walls. After it s hogged to that point, make a plug to fit the inside and then pour your epoxy. What are you going to do about containing the epoxy on the OD? ............. Jerry (in Tucson)
> - Nubsnstubs


Well, the epoxy is also partly structural as there are a lot of cracks and fissures in there from where the individual roots were (or in some cases, were not!). I'm pretty sure that without much of the structure the epoxy gives, the thing will just blow apart because of the lack of integrity in those areas. It's also much easier to do when the blank is just a cylinder, since the epoxy wants to self level, and trying to fill voids and cracks that are on a curved or sloping portion is a major PITA to do.

As for containing it - lots of blue painters tape  I can usually get it pretty well contained - but it's those hidden paths that get me. You can be pouring and pouring and wondering where it's all going, only to discover it leaking out on the backside a foot and a half away! Fun stuff!

Cheers,
Brad


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Dangnabit.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

That's my kind of problem, Brad. It's not a failure yet. Save those pieces. I have to go now, but will PM you on the easy fix later this afternoon. ....... Jerry (in Tucson)


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> That s my kind of problem, Brad. It s not a failure yet. Save those pieces. I have to go now, but will PM you on the easy fix later this afternoon. ....... Jerry (in Tucson)
> - Nubsnstubs


After all the time and epoxy I have sunk into that piece, I wasn't about to give up on it just yet! Fortunately, I found all of the pieces, so more epoxy and microfibers put it back together. I've pretty much used up the last of my epoxy though. I'm actually kind of glad about that as I've had it sitting around for about 10 years now, and the hardener hasn't just darkened like they say it would, but it's turned a dark brown that looks black when applied on the cedar. I have some new stuff on order and should be here by next week.

Anyway, because of the old hardener, it's created what looks like a Frankenbowl!! I think it will actually add some character to the piece, and I will certainly have a story to tell about it when people ask! Here it is all glued back and ready to continue turning:










Cheers,
Brad


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

Brad,
Been following your thread about this trunk/bowl. I can really add almost nothing, except…
When I turn a piece with knot/voids/bark inclusions/cracks, I do so in this sequence.
1] add epoxy any time it looks as if it may be prudent or benificial
2] work exclusively on the exterior thru the sanding step to at least 180 grit
3] tightly wrap the wood with 'shrink-wrap. 10 or more tight wraps
4] proceed to complete interior work

The shrink wrap trick [idea stolen from another] has saved me many piece.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> 3] tightly wrap the wood with 'shrink-wrap. 10 or more tight wraps
> [...]
> The shrink wrap trick [idea stolen from another] has saved me many piece.
> - rustfever


That right there would have certainly saved the piece from exploding like it did! I've also seen it done by wrapping with duct tape. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. But I still have the larger of the two pieces that I haven't started working yet - which is the root end and full of a lot more defects, voids and inclusions than the one that exploded, so I certainly will do so on that one!

Also, as I mentioned to Jerry, I re-learned a few lessons with this incident. First off, I kind of saw it coming and was telling myself that I should stop and address many of the hidden defects that were starting to show themselves as I turned down the walls. But I wanted to get to about 3/4" thick before doing so, which was my first mistake, and I should have listened to that voice inside my head. I made it to about 1". Secondly, I was turning it WAY to fast. I should not have been going any faster than around 1200 rpm, but I had it cranked up to at least 2600 rpm.

Cheers,
Brad


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Forgot to follow up with this… I wound up using the trunk end (not root end) as the base because there wasn't really anything solid to mount to on the root side - just lots of voids and twisted bits. I imagine that it will be that way 9 out of 10 times just due to the nature of roots 

I wound up getting 4 bowls out of that trunk, all about 7-8" in diameter, and ranging in height from approx. 3" up to around 6". Amazingly beautiful wood, so I left the designs fairly plain so the inclusions and wood coloration would provide the most visual impact.










Cheers,
Brad


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