# A switch is a switch, right?



## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

A switch is a switch, right? Made this a thread so it was not buried in another topic. 
This is what I gleaned, so those who are real electricians, please correct.

Spec, consumer, contractor, residential grade. (good) The 98 cent wonders. Should never be used for anything. Why they are even legal I do not know. 
Commercial grade. (prefered) The cheapest device I would use for just a light. Larger contacts, better cace materials. Buck ninety-eight. 
Industrial grade. (best) Much heavier built. Usually a full back support strap. Several bucks. 
Inductive load rated. A feature, Even heavier contacts. May be commercial or industrial rated. A few dollars more.

Seems Home Despot labels good, prefered, and best as the labels. Better than crap, OK, and good I guess.

The same ratings for outlets with the additional:
Hospital grade. High reliability and certified low leakage. green dot. 
Audio grade. Total BS, just a cheap switch or outlet repackaged at 10 to 100 times the price for the audiophile hysteria.
Tamper resistant, lighted, locking etc. Features, not a grade. 
Orange isolated ground outlets. For low electrical noise, computer rooms, studios etc. Usually wired in thin-wall where the safety ground is not connected to the ground prong to reduce ground-loop noise problems.
GFI, in various reliability grades. Recessed, twist-lock, and other form factor features.

Switches Rated for 15A or 20A or 30A. 
Outlets prong configuration defines their current ratings, 15 through 30A. 
As was pointed out, 40 and 50 amp outlets are for dryers or stoves where you would never plug or unplug something that is on, should only plug with breaker off
Certified for US, Canada, or both
Rated for copper only, or cu/al

Inductive rated. High starting load. Basically heavier contacts. Maybe alloy differences. 
Manual motor start. Heavier yet, no protection. Toggle or various push button formats. 
Manual motor start with sacrificial protection ( slow blow fuse, AKA " melting" link)
Manual motor start, resetting bimetallic controlled
Manual motor start, electronic control
Magnetic switch Heavy like manual motor start, no protection. Fle-bay has them from about $12.
Magnetic switch, resetting bimetallic. Bigger than a regular junction box I think. 
Magnetic switch, electronic protection. These are the ones that cost hundreds of dollars. Magnetic switches can also be built for remote control low voltage switching.
Big knife "safety disconnect" switches. Can be very high amps. From what I see, 30A up. Bigger than 120A sometimes are oil bath, vacuum, other non-arc technologies.

Then we have explosion proof, marine, weather resistant, and water and oil proof.

My house has spec grade switches and outlets. I have had two switches fail and several outlets are loose. I am working my way through upgrading them. I only use the side screw or the back screw clamping termination types. The stick-in sharp edge connection does not seem very reliable to me. I want surface area and force, not point contact.

I also use several of the wonderful pico remote switches. I can turn on my carport and breezeway lights from my car ( dark where I live). Put switches where I need the without pulling wire, and in one case a 5-way switch. They are NOT Alexa configured. I found both mechanical and electronic inductive rated timer switches. ( Air cleaner I have run for an hour after I leave the shop). I got a nifty multi-capacitor switch for ceiling fan that was pull chain for speed to make it on the wall.

Switch is just a switch. Right.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

You missed a few.

Dad used to, go get the switch,
Then there were the twins, get it?

I'm not a real electrician, so I can only comment on other types of switches I have experience with.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes, there are many types and grades of receptacles and switches. Disconnects with no fuses, disconnects with fuses. 30 amp, 60, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1200….. Really cheap compared to higher grade, are just a pay me now or pay again later when the cheaper version fails. Tamper proof receptacles are not required in a shop, but gfi receptacles are. And the same for cord caps, many different grades. And if you are assembling a drop cord from scratch, there is a male end of the cord and a female end so wires do not need to be crossed in the cord caps.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Then there are the typical electrical boxes, plastic, metal, etc. The plastic boxes that allow the outlet/switch mounting screws to be pushed in instead of being screwed are the lowest of the low. Not much more exciting then pulling a tight fitting plug out of a socket and having the entire socket come out of the box.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

They only required GFI on my outside outlets. Not the inside. As I had GFI outlets outside both doors, they said I did not need them on the outlets within 6 feet inside. Codes vary. I dis like GFI outlets as they have made them so cheap as to be unreliable. But then there was the one out in by a professional back in Maryland. Kept tripping. I went to fix it and found a pinched wire. Outlet did exactly what it was supposed to do. Ham-fisted electrician.

I have beat up on a few "professionals". Well, I have hired some very good ones too.

Did I miss anything relevant to our shops?

My drop cords are affixed to the strain relief in the box cover. I did not find braided wire strain relief locally but as my drops are attached to my dust collector drop pipe, they thought that served the purpose. Someday I'll change that. It is proper cord with the internal fiber strain relief. I guess one could look at the direction of the twist so not to have to swap leads, but as my drop is 220 single phase, no neutral, no difference. I'll remember that next time I do one. Had not thought about it.

Yea, caps do range from absolute crap to good. Price does not necessarily track.

No plastic boxes in my shop. All steel. BX cable. When I did my garage, I used thin wall EMT for experience as I had not dealt with it before. Surprisingly not very hard. What I did not like is putting in a junction box to transition to romex for the run through the attic to the sub-panel. I get why you can't run romex through the conduit, but what would be wrong with stripping the jacket and then just a clamp on the exit? Not good in this county as I asked.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

You need to actually look at how the outlet/switch is constructed. I don't go by the name our good better best

Here is an example. IMO, 'backstabbing' should be avoided. I spend the money to buy a device that uses the 'screw and clamp' type connection. You insert the stripped wire and when you tighten the screw, a small metal plate clamps the wire in place


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

If you look at the Leviton site, you will see their "residential", "comercial", and "industrial" are exactly what you are talking about. As I said, to not confuse the homeowner, they are labeled "good", "prefered", and "best" at Home Depot. You can't cut one apart in the store to look inside and unless you are really good, can't tell the different types pf plastic. What good the good ones are for I do not know. I would never put one in my house. The ones you want wil have a full metal strap around the back supporting it.

Your pictures are if outlets. There are similar differences in the switches. The point if this thread is to help us pick the appropriate devices for our shops while we have the attention of a couple of real electricians. I look at them from my industrial manufacturing failure analysis view, that is not the same as from an electrician and code view.

FOr instance, do you know why the above pictures woudl be up-side-down in a commercial site and in some cases, in a residential? Well some idiot did not put the screw in a metal face plate and the plate dropped shorting a not fully inserted plug. With the ground on top, it hits the ground lug first. Safer.

I already mentioned I would never use the "backstabbing" terminal. Only hook the wire around the screw like the good old days, or the plate clamp behind the screw which allows more wires. 4 if the box is big enough so branching without an additional junction box.

I have had two rather expensive buss bars fall apart recently. I am going to go back to the shop and replace my duplex outlets with quads that will eliminate a couple. Where I need even more, I can gang a second box and have four devices all bolted together. I might even slip in one with the USB charging ports. I put one in the house and it is quite handy.


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## AndyJ1s (Jan 26, 2019)

Re: Isolated ground outlets

See https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=353.0

"An isolated ground receptacle has a grounding terminal that has no contact with the receptacle mounting strap or yoke. When installed against a grounded metal box, the receptacle mounting strap is grounded. The receptacle's isolated ground terminal is then connected to an additional insulated grounding conductor that is installed as a separate grounding path for the reduction of electrical noise on the sensitive electronic equipment plugged into the receptacle. See 250.146(D)."

Keys are that the ground prong socket is not tied to the box through the outlet. The ground contact must be wired using a separate, INSULATED conductor (not the bare copper conductor in 12/2 or 14/2 romex).

Isolated ground outlets are orange, or display an orange triangle symbol. Do not use orange outlets unless they are wired with isolated ground.

Isolated ground outlets are often used in hospitals in patient care spaces.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Yes, there are many types and grades of receptacles and switches. Disconnects with no fuses, disconnects with fuses. 30 amp, 60, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1200….. Really cheap compared to higher grade, are just a pay me now or pay again later when the cheaper version fails.* Tamper proof receptacles are not required in a shop*, but gfi receptacles are. And the same for cord caps, many different grades. And if you are assembling a drop cord from scratch, there is a male end of the cord and a female end so wires do not need to be crossed in the cord caps.
> 
> - ibewjon


They are now, in VA. At least in a detached shop. We ran a subpanel to my son's garage last year and used GFCI as the first outlet in each circuit then put outlets that weren't tamper proof in the rest of the boxes. Inspector made him change them all out to tamper proof and call him back out to pass it. He said it was a recent change to local code at the time.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

So the green dot outlets are just low leakage and good where you are constantly plugging and unplugging? Low fatigue and good tight grip? Sounds like what we wound want for the convenience outlet over out bench. They are about the same price as industrial grade.

THis would make my outlet expansion easier:
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-21254-HW-Industrial-Receptacle-Grounding/dp/B003AUD3BU/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=hospital+grad+outlet&qid=1584646618&sr=8-8

Ordered a few. Sweet.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Why change from pipe to rope? Just pipe it all the way. Hospital grade has more tension on the plug preventing pull out. There is a plug in tester to see how much force is needed for plug removal. I have slot of these in my home from hospital remodel jobs. Could never be reused in the hospital. Even used, it is harder to pull a plug out than a new cheapie. Buy a better gfi receptacle. Most inspectors around me consider a garage at grade, and rewire all gfi receptacles


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Ah, Amazon has hospital grade GFI. Stronger, but is the circuit more reliable? Or do they all have the came chip in them?

Why change? Once back in the attic, much cheaper and more significant, much easier to run in existing structure where getting access is difficult. So I learned and when I did the shop ( existing pole barn) I just ran BX as I could snake it where pipe would be hard. I'm sure you have tricks I am without.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Just a few tricks. I piped the house I live in, built in 1915, without tearing out plaster or walls, just some small holes in outside walls while replacing siding. Also added high velocity air conditioning ducts, ( fished through the walls from second floor attic to the basement) and fully insulated the walls. But not a weekend job!


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

A switch is a device designed to serve a purpose.

Just because that purpose doesn't align with OP undocumented requirements, makes a switch bad?
Spec grade switches are fine when life expectancy is < 10 years, and/or < 100 insertion cycles in a lifetime.
I would not use them in anything I build, but they sell millions of them per year.

BTW:
How can you post a 'tip' on switches and not know what makes each one different and why the exist? Why not post example PN's as part of the tip? How about sharing your actual knowledge on differences in design rating for number of insertions, overload ratings, or isolation values as part of this tip? You mention motor switches with nothing more than guesses on differences, How is this a useful tip? Why not clarify the differences between NEMA and IEC motor starters?

Thanks for reinforcing you can only believe half of what is posted on the internet.

PS - Latest NEC codes require GFCI protected outlets in all garages, and AFCI protection for all indoor outlets (when 20A or less). Tamper proof is also 100% required for any indoor outlets (< 20A). 100% use of AFCI/Tamper proof is relatively new in NEC codes. Adoption of electrical codes varies significantly across America. Canada, EU, and all other countries of world have different requirements too. (this is international forum) So YMMV.

Always seek local professional help with dealing with electricity. 
Be safe, not sorry.

#not watching


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

"How is this a useful tip? Why not clarify the differences between NEMA and IEC motor starters?"

Please do. That is why I asked for the professionals out there to correct what I have found.

It would be interesting to see the differences in the codes for the EU as the news here implies they are code-happy. No idea if it is true. I know we ran into conflicting issues in a US military facility in Japan and whose code was in force. I wonder if the Duchy of Grand Fenwick has updated their code from knob and tube?

In any case, I was able to order the proper switch to control my 3 HP compressor when I move it. It cost me all of $6 more. The 30A DPST switch at the local store is not inductive load rated.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Multiple sets of information. Both the switch and the enclosure.

https://www.c3controls.com/blog/nema-vs-iec-motor-controls/
FOr those who do not follow links:

Comparing NEMA vs IEC
When choosing between NEMA vs IEC, there are some key differences to note.

IEC-rated equipment is less expensive than NEMA-rated ones.
NEMA ratings are more versatile, designed to apply to many different applications.
NEMA caters to large-sized devices in North American Markets only.
IEC ratings are for more compact devices in the global market.
IEC ratings react faster to overloads while NEMA ratings withstand short circuits.
IEC devices are safe to the user, while NEMA devices require safety covers.

https://amprodmfg.com/nema-vs-iec-classifications/

https://www.canarysystems.com/nsupport/canary_an4.pdf


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Wow! basic electrical equipment 101. Lots of info to consider.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*" Well some idiot did not put the screw in a metal face plate and the plate dropped shorting a not fully inserted plug."*

Wow, if I take nothing else away from this thread, this little bit of info answers a big question I've always wondered about. Good stuff!


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> *" Well some idiot did not put the screw in a metal face plate and the plate dropped shorting a not fully inserted plug."*
> 
> Wow, if I take nothing else away from this thread, this little bit of info answers a big question I ve always wondered about. Good stuff!
> 
> - poopiekat


I was given an example by an electrician (back in the 80's) that it was in case a paper clip slid off the back of an office desk and happen to fall onto a partially inserted plug.

Either way, I'm still annoyed by equipment with plugs (usually the flush with the wall types) that are completely useless when the outlet is "inverted"


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Though long argued, I know of no code provision that requires ground up or down on a receptacle. It is refered to as a "design issue".


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> Though long argued, I know of no code provision that requires ground up or down on a receptacle. It is refered to as a "design issue".
> 
> - ibewjon


 Agreed! At that time, the electrician was told it was a new requirement, but later it changed to being optional.
I still do it, mainly because I hate having a mix in the house 8^) I do miss the look of micro-pigs poking their way through the wall with the non-inverted outlets…


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, it was written into our Federal data center requirements. I can see it being optional as it is permissible to install an outlet sideways. I also notice, all my GFI outlets are labeled with the ground up for the text "test" and "reset"

I have flush plugs that go both ways and some diagonally. So I will continue to install ground up even though in my house, I think the only two plugs that are grounded are the fridge and washer. Ironic now most houses have three prong outlets, devices to use them are rare.

What I want to know, is what is in the box from MCS, 30 A single phase motor starter that costs $4900 when I see others with the same apparent spec that are $650. ( full remotable, magnetic switch, electronic protection etc. Nema enclosure ) Neither do I need on my table saw, but curious. I just need some of the cheap big paddle magnetic switches.

Here is one for you. My router has electronic controls and does not turn on for darn near a second. In that time, it is drawing only a tiny current. Will a magnetic switch work with just a press, or would one have to hold the button until it started? Just a switch, no protection. 15A when running.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

The magnetic switch or starters will pull in and close the contacts with no wires attached to the output terminals. The contactor is independent of the line / load current path. Post MCS motor starter picture, it may be explosion proof for hazardous locations.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

I thought about E-P. Nope. 
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/10601367

Good on the switch as I would like a big paddle switch for my router table. I am using a regular toggle and it is inconvenient. I would like one in "knee range" I assume the cheap ones are line voltage solenoids. They are only a buck or so more than the simple PB switches, so must be pretty junky.

Just checked my leftovers. Bummer, I have half a roll of 12/3 BX but I need 10/3. I had to get the 12 even though it was just for 3-way lights as that was all HD had. Different connectors, different sleeves. Different clamps. $$$$$

While shut in, I tested and proved DC braking does work to some extent on a single phase motor, so next is to build a workable circuit. It does not "lock up" as much as some of the videos suggest, but if it could take a 45 second run down to a 5 second, that would be significant. I have a suspicion they were cheating and using a much higher voltage than the equivalent RMS. current. What I do not know is what happens when the motor spins down and the contacts for the start winding close. More braking?

The trick is to have the brake circuit turn itself off after stopping. I can use a big cap to supply relay current that turns the main supply on, so when AC comes off the cap discharges eventually dropping the power to the 9V or whatever supply.


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## John_ (Sep 23, 2013)

> FOr instance, do you know why the above pictures woudl be up-side-down in a commercial site and in some cases, in a residential
> 
> - tvrgeek





> "How is this a useful tip? Why not clarify the differences between NEMA and IEC motor starters?"
> 
> - tvrgeek


note to self - don't get involved in any of his threads again….


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## redlee (Apr 11, 2016)

Well Son of a Switch , you learn something every day.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

John_ , You are ascribing a comment to me that was from Captain Klutz. Just saying.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

As I wake up early, I spend my coffee time every day researching something. I make notes and file it away as I can't remember that many details, but I know what I may need to know and where to find it. Been doing a lot of woodwork related research as I am on hold waiting on parts for my Triumph.

Old habit. When I was working, it took an hour or two a day keeping up with my programers. It took that much to stay only one step behind them, so I could defend their choices to upper management. Both when it went well and when it did not. Agile development can take some fast footwork occasionally. The effort is well worth it.

A member provided a great link in another thread on brands of chisels and gouges. Something else I need to understand as the gouges I have are crap. That kind of help is valuable so I don't buy more crap.

Some folks already know everything. I know I don't. A day without learning is a wasted day.



> Well Son of a Switch , you learn something every day.
> 
> - Richard Lee


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

My grandfather's DeWalt RAS from the 50's had a braking system. I remember a control box maybe 10×10, and vacuum tubes in it. Sadly, the saw was in a flood and scrapped. I have two of the saws, but no braking on either. As for that starter, it is either solid gold, or a typo in the price. I don't see anything to justify the price.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Tubes in a box. Sounds like DC braking. But I never heard of an induction motor on a RAS. Too big, but I have not heard of everything! My Delta chop saw I just sold had braking, but as it was a brush motor, it was just a relay shorting the brushes. Stopped in about two seconds.

Yea, maybe the copy editor is off a decimal point.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I like your thoughts about DC braking, they do take a looooong time to spin down. You won't find many (any) cap that can charge up and hold AC. As an alternative there are time delay relays. I have several old ones that have a vacuum diaphragm that can be dialed in for a delay of 5-200 seconds (instant on/delayed off). Electronic versions are probably even easier to source.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

It was the old green DeWalt with the burgundy knobs.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Cap is to hold the small DC charge for the relay coil that is supplying power to the DC supply. Hook it up as self energizing, when the charge dissipates, the coil drops. The DC supply needs to be pretty robust, if not very precise. My band saw equivalent turned out to be about 9V @ 6A. I think I can cheat a little on the current as long as I time out soon enough.

Yes, caps do not hold an AC charge by definition. (one of my degrees is in electronics)


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Residential vs inductive load rated switches:


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