# Why Isn't Sawstop a Bigger Hit?



## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

I'm just catching up on all the woodworking options out there and I just ran across Sawstop. I was astounded. Do you mean that it's possible to keep a table saw from removing fingers accidentally and it isn't required equipment on every saw? How did the airbag people miss this one?

Seriously though, there must be a reason. What is your opinion about Sawstop and would you have one if it didn't cost more?

Thanks,


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I spoke with a Sawstop rep at the woodshow I went to and there is a contractor version coming out in the new year - at a more affordable price. 
I'm sure that the market will take off then. 
There is, of course, the cost of the replacement pieces but I don't think that exceeds the costs of replacing a finger or two.


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## jpw1995 (Aug 19, 2006)

I have no personal experience with the SawStop, but all of the reviews I've read say that it is a top notch saw even if it didn't have the safety feature. I'm a big fan of the riving knife, and if I had the money to spend, I'd get one. Unfortunately it does boil down to the cost. Most hobbyists just don't have that kind of money laying around.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I don't know; too new, too expensive, too exotic. Like a lot of others, I'm waiting and watching. I know of no one who has saved a finger because of this machine. As soon as we hear of some real life experiences it will mean a whole lot more. All I have heard is that it is some way connected to electric charge in flesh? Or moisture? Until I know more, I'll continue to watch. I won't stick my finger there to see if it works. 
Tom


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Sawstop is fantastic technology. The biggest problem with the saw is it's price, and it's intended market. There are many professional shops (according to sawstop) that have them now. If you look at forums like woodnet, there are also a great many hobbyists that are buying them. If you take the safety aspect and put it aside, it's a very well built and well designed cabinet saw for about 1000 more than a Powermatic or General or Unisaw. So the people that aren't buying it, see no value in the safety aspect of it. Sawstop is coming out with a contractors saw version, but again at a price that makes it almost twice as much money as Delta, or General, or Jet. So they are asking people to put a price on safety.

I'll give you a story of an experience of mine from when I was 16. This is more than 2 decades ago, but I'm still pretty lucid. LOL.

I used to rent sailboats. One day, it was VERY windy. Around 40Km/h. Not a day we liked to rent as this is when even experienced sailors will capsize, and when even well tuned boats will break pieces. We had a rental fleet so were not in abundance of either experienced sailors or well tuned boats. So we didn't like to rent in that sort of weather.

A gentleman came to rent a boat. I said that it was very windy and we don't like to send the equipment out in this sort of wind. He said he was very accomplished and wanted to take his girlfriend sailing. We had a 10 minute discussion which didn't convince me that he had much knowledge and this was going to end up as a rescue. Well, my boss, who was just observing, came up and said, "Okay, we'll let you take it out, but there is a 50 dollar rescue fee paid in advance and refunded when you come back."

The guy went away and didn't rent the boat. I used to think it was because he was just a cheapskate, but as I got older I realized, people don't wan't a price put on safety.

If sawstop made a retrofit to the saws people have now, they'd probably sell like pancakes after church. Now, that being said, they sell alot of saws. They are a BMW though, along with Unisaw, General and Powermatic (I know I'm excluding Felder and all the other insanse saws) and many people just want a Ford or a Chevy.

Just my opinion.


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## gbvinc (Aug 6, 2007)

I have looked this saw over twice and watched the 'hot dog' demo each time. In my opinion it is a very well constructed saw with lots of good features (safety and otherwise). I suspect price is the biggest stumbling block for many hobbyists as it isn't inexpensive. But then neither are trips to the ER. If I ever shop for another tablesaw, this one would be at the top of my evaluation list.

Anybody out there actually using one? Fill us in!


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

This has been debated a little bit before here. I'll repost a portion of my comments.

"I looked at the sawstop but the extra cost and the proprietary cartridges required to run it turned me off. I plan on having this saw for 20 years or more. What happens when the electronics either blow or are no longer manufactured for the sawstop. Not something I wanted to have to deal with 10 years down the road. Otherwise the sawstop looks like an excellent saw. If it had some kind of override that would turn it into a regular saw and not need the cartridges or fancy electronics I probably would have gotten it. For that kind of investment I need a simple fix or a guarantee I wouldn't be stuck with a boat anchor."

Safety is fine, but not at the risk of a $3000 boat anchor. I'll stick with using my brain and common sense until there is a enough competition to guarantee parts availability or aftermarket overrides.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Colorado, the saw does have an override. It's a feature that is used for cutting wet wood or conductive metals. You can take in and out of "sawstop" mode with a turn of a key.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Anyone looked at their new contractor saw?


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Tom,

We had that same conversation in here.

I think you, like a lot of people, have a misconception of what the sawstop override does. I understand the override disables the safety feature, allowing conductive material to be cut without triggering the brake, but does NOT allow the saw to be run without a brake cartridge. My understanding, from a bit of research and hands on checking, is that the saw will NOT run without a fully functional, NON FIRED, brand new, ready to go, brake module.

That last part, the non fired cartridge required, is just the rub. When I considered getting a sawstop I figured maybe if the thing ever fired, saving my fingers and all that goodness, I could just run the saw until I got a new cartridge. My understanding is that will not work. The saw is effectively disabled, boat anchor, until you get a new, non fired brake module.

If anyone else knows different show me. We played with one at a distributor and we couldn't get the sucker to run without a factory fresh cartridge.

Again, too much risk of down time and being held captive to a single vendor for a critical part on a what is for me a critical machine.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, the sawstop safety feature looks like an excellent idea. I expect sooner or later the lawyers will get all over it and it will be legislated on all saws.

But in the mean time I have NO interest in being held captive to single vendor for a critical part on a critical machine.

And I have to say the Sawstops marketing offends me. The way Sawstop touts the wonders and benefits and humanitarian goodness of the sawstop safety feature, and then feels justified in adding a thousand dollars to the price of an already expensive saw. And they've patented the cartridge to block out competition that might bring the price to a reasonable level, a level where everyman could afford it. Apparently Sawstop only believes in goodness and safety for the well off.

Not a bad saw, not a bad safety feature, just too much money, too much risk, and too much self righteous attitude.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Wayne,

I've not seen the contractors saw, but the rumor is that it is going to have a huge premium in cost over comparable saws. Cheaper than their cabinet saw, but still out of the league of joe average. Basically you can get their contractors saw for the price of a top of the line cabinet saw from anyone else.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Sorry, climber. I am intimately familiar with the saw, however, I did misunderstand your statement. You can't run the saw without the cartridge, you are correct. I think the cartridges are about 75 samolians. I just called the local dealer and they don't have any in stock, so your fear is well founded.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

If I ran a shop with a lot of turn over or inexperienced users I'd probably pop for a sawstop and keep some backup cartridges. Say like a community work shop or a school / training shop. In that case the probability of a newbie sticking a critical body part into the blade is high enough to warrant the cost and risk of having a sawstop. In a small shop with experienced users I feel the risk is lower and it's hard for me to justify a sawstop.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

I spoke with a sawstop representative who said the contractor saw will be in the $1500 dollar price range. I said, for that kind of money why not enclose it as a hybrid. She said that's coming too. I can see the market for the expensive cabinet saw, but I can't see it for that kind of cost in a contractor saw. Just my personal opinion, of course.

I understand your position, climber. A $3,300 boat anchor sitting there killing productivity in the shop. Especially if it misfired as there are reports that it's prone to do.

I like the idea of them, though. Time will tell. With regards to their patent, I'm not sure any of us would toss that kind of R and D money out there to let another company come in with a less expensive copy product and put us out of business. They can talk all of the humanitarian crap they want, it's just like selling the magic golf club that will take 10 strokes off your game and add 40 yards to your drive. It's just the rhetoric that goes along with trying to sell the thing.

Cheers!


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

I know we're getting a bit sidetracked here.

Tom,

I absolutely agree with you, companies, people, anyone who invests time or money to develop or produce something of value ought to have the right to set the price and try to recover their investment, and even make a few bucks extra too.

And I understand that's what marketing is, use whatever words you can, shamelessly, to get people to part with their money. But, it would be refreshing once in a while to hear a company say, "Look, we've invested a lot of money, we think we have something interesting, we're going to charge a premium in order to recover our investment, and we'd like to make a few bucks too. We hope you buy our product." I still might not buy the product but at least I'd applaud their honesty.

kanpai!


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Hey Climber,

Yes, that would be refreshing. I can remember the look on my daughters face when she was three. She saw a commercial on TV about a toy. She really fell for the pitch. She was impassioned about it. She remained so for more than a week so I bought her the toy. Much to her surprise, but not mine, it really didn't do any of the things that were being enacted in the commercial. She was quite sad. We talked about it a lot. She's 9 now and has a very critical eye for advertising now. She'll comment like, "If you can't swing a golf club, how will THAT one make you a better golfer?" Maybe I'm raising a little pessimist, but I hope I'm raising someone who will be a critical thinker.

Marketing is picking a theme that will strike a chord in people and allow them to more readily and easily part with their money. If you have a good product to boot, then it's even better. However, how many times have we seen movie trailers and the mass marketing of a summer release that ends up being crap. The studio knows it's crap and wants to recover as much as they can in the opening weekend. *shrug* It's capitalism I guess.

Yes, we are a tad sidetracked, but I think the theme of the entire discussion remains true to the original question. This is why it's not a bigger deal. It goes beyond that fact that is a cool safe saw.

Cheers!


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## johnjoiner (Sep 28, 2007)

I've seen a demo of the hotdog simulation on a Sawstop. It was at the University architecture department workshop. When the shop manager got his Sawstop in, one of the first things he did was test it, and he invited a bunch of people to watch.

This was about two years ago, and I'm recalling this from memory. He had the dog on a board - I forget how he kept the hot dog in place. Then he slid the board into the blade really fast, not nice and slow like in the Sawstop videos. You can imagine that the damage was a lot worse than the little nicks you see in the photos and videos. But the hot dog was not completely severed. I remember thinking, "that probably would have gotten to the bone, but not all the way through."

Regarding down-time: I always assumed one would buy an extra cartridge when the saw is purchased so a replacement would be ready in the shop.

If I ever replace my crappy little contractor's saw I think I'll get a Sawstop. Preventing one little "event" on the table saw is worth a lot more than $3000 to me. But I'm finding that I use my band saw more and more, and my table saw less. So I might never replace it.


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

My first take on the marketing side of things was that if these guys had been Japenese, they would have produced a really good hobby level saw that had that safety device on it first. (Because I bet the the newbie user is more concerned about safety.) Then, they would have captured almost all of the hobby market and introduced a slightly more expensive contractor model at the price point of low to middle in that market. (Because those guys are only considering safety when it's not more costly.) Then they would have captured that market and introduced the best cabinet saw you're likely to find at the low end of that market. (Because those guys know what they're doing and aren't likely to be bothered with a safety device unless it's free.) Then, when the whole country is complaining about how we keep shipping our jobs overseas, they would start making them here in Memphis or somewhere so we'd stop complaining as we cut them the next check. Ha, ha. LOL


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

I think that the contractor model has been an afterthought. I feel that they have had some problems with design with the differences in how contractor saws are put together, that have kept them from going into production. Their bandsaw really intrigues me. It is in development.

http://sawstop.com/media/Band_Saw_WMV_High.wmv


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Maybe I'm not on track here - but the sawstop seems to be a good idea and it does work. However, I used to teach beginning woodworking (all machines - still learning the good features of handtools myself) for women's only classes at the local Woodcraft in Fort Worth, and I would always find the safety features of most tools had been taken off and I would have to replace them (if I could find them) before I would start class. Now I can understand the magazines and videos not using the guards for photography clarity but not the at home or at work professionals. Most accidents, in my opinion, are from people not using the proper equipment or the proper work method. It might be quicker to do things without the guards but the fact that you may be able to cut a piece in 10 seconds instead of 20 using the guard on the saw seems to me to not be worth it. (I fully understand there are times that the guards must be removed for particular cuts.)

I know most saw's come with a clunky saw guard and they are not the best-but if you consider the price of a sawstop and the price of a good after market saw guard seems to me the saw guard would be the more sensible buy.

I'm not sure why most hobbiests do not use the guards (or other safety stuff) - why would hobbiests be in a hurry? Professionals maybe - but hobbiests? If we have to hurry as a hobby, it is a hobby or work? Professionals should be using the safety equipment also, especially if they have employees. The legal ramifications of someone getting hurt are huge compared to a few seconds of safety.

I had a lady last week at Rockler tell me that she would get within 1" of the blade before she would consider using a push stick. I can't understand that. I like my digits as I am sure most people do.

I guess I'm saying - why the hubbub about sawstop when most folks don't use the other safety equipment anyway. Why pay more for safety if you don't use what you have?

Just my two cents - may not even be worth that!


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## WaywardHoosier (May 9, 2007)

I currently have a radial arm saw (for 25 years now) BUT when the motor finally dies I will seriously consider a Sawstop table saw. The cost is definetly a consideration for a hobbyist. However, safety should outweigh my decision and I think it will. I have read many reviews and the product is valued as quality. If the prices do come down, this product will be an easier decison to make.

Betsy, we ALL should use safety equipment. I work in heavy industry and have seen horific accidents and I have seen "near misses" because of people taking chances and not using safety equipmnent. All it takes is just one use and on any given day and your life is degraded forever.


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I have an ineresting scar on my right thumb which I got from trying to flick a cut off away from the table saw blade on a ShopSmith. I had shut the saw off but didn't wait long enough. I think about it every time I turn on the table saw. If there was a guard that wasn't absolutely in the way 100% of the time I'd think about it. As to SawStop; maybe if I have to hire help it would lower my worker's comp payments. Probably not in Oregon. Nothing lowers the worker comp payments in Oregon.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I did allot of reading when this saw was still in it's infancy, and the thing that struck me the most was the guy who developed the technology said he brought his idea to some of the major players in the tablesaw industry and none of them were interested. Why you might ask? Well their take on it was that if they started retrofitting these safty devices on their saws that would be like admitting that the tablesaw was a dangerous tool, and it would hurt sales. OK…who dosn't know (regardless of wether you are a woodworker or not) that a table saw is dangerous and using it you assume a certain risk of injury…DUH! It was only then after being rejected by all the big players that he decided to make his own saw. I personally think it is a great idea, and even if they downplay the amount of injury a little in the famous hotdog video, you would still be left with a finger on your hand instead of loosing it. If you have the money to buy the saw then you would probubly have the money to keep a spare replacement cartridge on hand in case you did some hotdog trimming. One bummer is that it ruins your sawblade so when you combine the cost of the cartridge and a new good quality sawblade it could be a little expensive…but hopefully you would never need the spare. All the reviews I have read say the saw is a high quality professional piece of equipment…I just wish it was also affordable. I hate to put a price on my fingers, but I can barely convince the wife I need to upgrade from my BOSCH to a General hybred..As far as the contractor saw goes…if I'm laying out that kind of dough….I want a real saw. I want to upgrade from a contractor saw…not pay more for the same thing I already have.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

perhaps saws should come with the disclaimer that is on our children's hockey sign-up cards. (This is from back in the 80's so I don't know what it says now) It went something like this: I understand that Hockey can be a dangerous sport and injuries may occur including death. I give consent for my child to play hockey.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

If anyone is interested in some backstory, the SawStop is a conspiracy theorists dream come true. It's got heros and villains and secret deals in darkened back rooms. Industry big wigs out to silence heroic underdogs, it's got it all. But I'll let you read some of it for yourself. Here's some links if you got a lot of time to waste….

Inc.com report 2005

NPR Report 2004

Consumer Product Safety Commission 2001 Stationary Power Saws Injuries Report

Sawstops's petition to CPSC to mandate Sawstop Technology part 1

Sawstops's petition to CPSC to mandate Sawstop Technology part 2

Public Comment Response part 1

Public Comment Response part 2

A particularly interesting part of the response comes in part 3…

Public Comment Response part 3

If you got this far and care to read even more just go to the Consumer Product Safety Commission website and do a search on table saw injuries, power saw injuries, table saw injury statistics. You get to read all about the proposals and counter proposals and infighting and lies and backstabbing and well just about as much intrigue as anyone could want.

Enjoy!!


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Well, if I could jam one into my shop, it would be there. I'm not going to stop woodworking, and because of my expensive taste in tools, I'm not going to be able to stop working. Therefore, I like the idea and will probably buy one. It might even happen while the dollar is still favorable. Then we can have some K and T Woodworking Video Productions, starring SawStop. Hopefully nothing unscripted will occur! LOL


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Tom,

You're an affluent guy (looking at all the high end tools in your shop you better be  ), smart, educated, clearly into woodworking, you also seem to have connections and intimate knowledge of Sawstop. You seem like the kind of guy who would be a potential investory / partner in a Sawstop or Sawstop like technology. Just being nosy on my part, but do you have any direct connections with Sawstop, an investor? buddies with a principal? consultant?


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Climber…nope. I'm just a schmuck from rural Alberta. Nothing up my sleeve. I got a private message asking if I had an piece of Dowelmax, a few months ago.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

I was just reading through that info Climber…I was posting at the same time as you and didn't realize you had put that up there. Yup, it does seem like it could be the next Oliver Stone movie, that's for sure.


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm tired of them always using a plain hotdog in their test videos..maybe a few condiments can improve sales


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

That's a good idea…I wonder if the sauerkraut would cause a premature trip?


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Perhaps an analysis that shows a reduction in spatter patterns. Not only do you save the finger, but you have to do less laundry.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Climber,don't believe him! He keeps an armie up his sleevie!

On a more serious note, I think the principal behind the Sawstop is great.
Will I buy one, probably not.
The way I work today has a zero to minus 1 chance of getting my body parts tangled with a tablesaw.
Push sticks. pre cuttting sheet material, cross cut jigs, Grr-ripper, etc etc.
I am still concerned with kickback which I think is much more likely to happen than me running a cuddly part into a blade.
I do wish they could develop a saw with a detachable riving knife so I could still cut the odd dado without dragging out the router.

I often hesitate using the CMS (compound miter saw). when the parts get a bit on the tiny side.

If I had kids and or any novice running equipment in my hobby area that would be a different decision.
I dropped a 70 lb log on my finger a couple of weeks ago but so far no manufacturer has come forward to protect me from my stupidity on that one.

If Sawstop, and it's progeny are what it takes to get wood skills back in the schools then I am behind it 100%.
If they ultimately reduce the accidents from these tools and subsequently reduce the liability insurance for our cabinet shops etc I'm all for it.

P.S. I want somebody to invent a stupid meter that you have to blow in to start up your vehicles. <g>
... And a cell phone that zaps you if your car engine is running.
Bob


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

I recall a statistic heard once in passing, one that I cannot substantiate, but is consistent with my own experience, that the VAST majority, like 90+ percent, of all table saw related injuries are the result of kickback. Injuries from impact from flying material due to kickback and unexpected stock motion drawing a body part into the blade.

If you believe this, and I do, there is an argument that if you want to make saws safer you implement useful kickback control. Put your money and effort where you can do the most good. If you can control kickback you can eliminate a significant portion, most ?? table saw relate injuries, including injuries that draw body parts into the blade.

An argument is that Sawstop like technology is good once a body part is drawn into the blade but preventing a body part from being drawn into the blade in the first place is even better. Way more bang for your buck.

Rarely, I'm sure it happens although I've never heard of it, rarely does an injury occur because a operator just blithely pushed their fingers through the blade, like a hot dog on a board. It's almost always a result of some other unexpected occurrence, usually kickback, causing a finger or hand to contact the blade.

All of the table saw related injuries I've ever heard of, including my own, have been directly a result of kickback.

Betsy asked the question, why do people take the safety equipment off of their saws. Even me, someone who knows the danger, and has been bitten more than once, used to run pretty much exclusively with the guards and splitters removed and tossed under the bench. Why? Well, because most guards and splitters are a complete and total royal PITA.

My latest saw, a PM-2000, has a quick remove riving knife. I've finally found religion. I've always known that a splitter / riving knife is safer, but what a pain in the butt to get a wrench, un bolt it, blah blah blah. On ALL of my old saw I used to just take the splitter off and toss it. Now I can remove or replace the riving knife in under 5 seconds. I'm sure other manufactures have good solutions too, I'm just commenting on the one I have. I'm sold. I never run without the riving knife now, and if it's not in when I want to do a cut that can be done with the knife in place I'll stop, find the knife, and drop it in, I like it that much and it's that easy to swap.

So for me that's part of my new religion, get an easy / quick change riving knife and use it.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Bob,

I just posted before reading your comment, you're looking for a saw with a quick and easy detachable riving knife, take a look at the PM-2000. There are probably other saws with similar solutions but this is the one I have and the sucker works. Easy in, easy out, quick. I really like it. I dont know about other saws but I would put "Quick release riving knife" somewhere near the top of my list if I were looking for a saw.

I wasn't really looking for a quick release riving knife when I bought the PM2000, cause I've always just tossed the splitters on my old saws, but now I have it and I'm sold.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Any opinion on the Biesmeyer quick remove splitter? They are about $180 these days. Been considering it. I hate the factory guard on my saw.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002234A/ref=wl_it_dp/102-7449947-7697720?ie=UTF8&coliid=IG58MRD8BE53I&colid=KFTNH7FTIMSN


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

it's an innovative idea. Bravo for them.
They didn't give up and became entrepreneurs .. Bravo for them for "going for it".

As with any tool, it's up to the buyer to decide whether it works for them. And to make that decision we need information. There sure is a lot of information posted here: knowledge about how injuries happen; different safety features available to prevent injuries; further requirements waiting for someone to invent/create/sell.

Bob.. I think they already have a gadget to blow into and a "fail" locks the ignition. Haven't heard anything about the cell phone zapper though hehe.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for the tip on the PM-2000.
I dont' believe they have a dealer up here yet but I will do some checking now.
I think your thoughts on kickback pretty much mirror my concerns as well.

Most of the hand injuries I am privy to involved a draging a paw back over the blade rather than pushing one into it as many think happens.

Bob


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

wow all you guys with PM-2000s'...I am jealous. I am still saving up for a new drill press so I can set the woodpecker I have in a cage free…


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Bob, apparently there is a dealer in Montreal. I've searched a bit, but can't easily find. WMH Tool Group says use their "Contact Us," page. They don't have one soooooooooo …...


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

Folks,
This is good stuff for sure. (I love the way you get that saw sound now when you click on the link to this topic.) I'm still curious though. In my original question I asked if you would have a Sawstop if it didn't cost more. The second part kind of seems to have gotten lost because of so many strong opinions about the Sawstop. If you care to comment about how you would direct your purchasing dollars if there was no cost difference, I'd still like to know. Kind of like the question at the checkout counter at the Piggly Wiggly "Paper or plastic?"


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Wow, what a debate! I like the Sawstop technology but I'm not runnin' out to buy one. It would be like runnin' out to buy a new Edsel. The technology is there but still not field tested enough. In better terms, their sawstop device might be great but their tablesaw motors might be junk. I think giving it a couple more years, we'll see Sawstop devices become available for our various tools as an aftermarket add-on. Till then, I'll keep my digits away from the blade. That's what push-sticks are for. Which reminds me…I noticed the other day that the business end of my pretty cherry push-stick was mangled. I don't recall ever touching the blade with it.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Tom , I'm looking at the riving knife and it appears to be just a short version of the bald cover on the General.
Wayne:
The Biesmeyer one is only shown on a zero clearance insert so that makes me think it is again not a true riving knife that tracks the blade on angled cuts.

Debbie said:
"Bob.. I think they already have a gadget to blow into and a "fail" locks the ignition. Haven't heard anything about the cell phone zapper though hehe.."

I think you have to pre-load yourself without gadget to get it to work.

The one I'm waiting for is the one that tells you not to pre-load yourself if you can't figure that our without it. <g>

Jim: Apologies for the hi jack.

Bob


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks Bob. I'll check that in their manual. There should be one on the Amazon site.

I think this is turning into a Safety discussion.


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## Drew1House (Mar 18, 2007)

I am selling my Brand New X-5 Unisaw… for essentially $1500 delivered anywhere in the USA in order to purchase a sawstop. My friend who owns the tool store will pay me dollar for dollar what my existing unisaw was purchased for in order to make the move to the Sawstop. He always has cartridges in stock… (lots of them) as he sells better than 40 per month. Hmmmm… Now how come he is selling that many extra cartridges? I am going to buy 3 to 4 of them upfront… If sawstop goes out of business and I only have one left and no more are to be had… turn off the trigger and you have a really nice powermatic level or better saw with a killer riving knife set up. In the mean time… I hurt myself with my drill press this year… stitches cost $500 bucks.. as much as the tool did… if this only lasts a few years… I will be happy with the value of the safety it provided me. Here is the deal… if you cut 3 of your fingers off it is too late. You can look back at this moment and go "I shoulda". An injury like that for most people would only happen one time in their lifetime… However once is more than I am prepared to accept. I am not stupid… I am safe and most of the time if used properly there is not an issue with a table saw… I use the unisaws at the university where I take woodworking courses but I think about it each and every time… "am I being safe" The issue is that the more you work around a machine like this the more complacent you tend to get (has anyone here purchased a new truck… and sworn that this time they would keep it spotless… how much time did it take before that stopped… it just is not human nature for people not to become complacent. However they (the university) has 2 Sawstops coming so soon that will not be an issue either. My friend has sold more than 400 of these saws in the past year and probably 300 have been to schools all over the west. The issue is that the difference in premiums for one year of having this saw versus not will usually pay for the saw. (that says something does'nt it) I really want them to come up with the same mechanism for a shaper and a band saw… they actually have plans for such things but it will be years.


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## Branden (Jan 28, 2007)

We have the SawStop in our community shop in Davis, CA. When teaching beginning woodworkers how to use a table saw, we don't even mention the safety features of SawStop specifically because we don't want people to have a false sense of security with a table saw. Proper technique and knowledge of the potential dangers are very important in using any table saw. For teaching purposes, I stress safety especially when they most likely will not be using a SawStop in any other capacity (unless it is legislated as mentioned above).

It's a fine tool, but price and the need to practice safety supersede any need to have one in my personal shop.


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## oscorner (Aug 7, 2006)

I'd rather one of the European sliding table saws. They have many mandatory safety features. Also, I fear that the SawStop device will just cause people to become less safe, thinking that they are protected from cutting off a digit or two. If you treat your saw with the respect that it deserves you probably won't cut off anything.


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## Drew1House (Mar 18, 2007)

You may be right… I like the sliders but the issue is space. A true slider takes Sooo much room it is not an option for me. Less safe is actually ok because the worst injury you can get with a sawstop may take 3 stitches to fix. The blade brake is only one of the many safety upgrades it has that say my new unisaw does not. I think that Brandens idea is the best out there. Teach people proper table saw safety and get a sawstop. Personally I find myself doing something now and again that after I have done it I go… crap… how come I just did that. I tempt fate being an idiot now and again… if it happens once a year… and 5 years from now it catches up with me… I will be glad I have the sawstop. Don't get me wrong… I like to spend my money on other things as well… Like 4 wheelers or vacations, fixing properties, new appliances, savings etc… I also know that many cannot justify the expense. It is a lot… and it might keep some out of woodworking if this was the only option. For me… I have been blessed and can afford the saw. That being considered I feel I would be stupid not to get one. (I did work construction for years and years with a wobbley dewalt bench top contractors saw (still have been using it)... I have never been hurt by it but have pushed the saw across a garage floor trying to cut a 1 and 1/8th sheet of MDF back 10 years ago when I was dumb and was not thinking… Totally the wrong tool for the job… totally dumb… and I am still here with all my fingers. That however does not excuse things… I was lucky… at some point luck can run out… at that point… Ill have a sawstop.


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## coloradoclimber (Apr 7, 2007)

Jim,

You asked the question,"if you would have a Sawstop if it didn't cost more".

For me you're asking the wrong question. I was considering buying a Sawstop, even though it costs *more*, significantly more.

I purchased a new cabinet saw around a year ago. I knew I wanted a top of the line saw, baring the European models. Delta, Powermatic/Jet, Sawstop, SteelCity. I looked at all of them. I read the reviews, downloaded specs, looked at arbor sizes, motor sizes, where they were manufactured, fit and finish, table size, weight, pretty much everything I could think of. I went to a local distributor, I played with all of the models, up and down, side to side, turn them on, off, this and that.

I would put the Sawstop right up there with any top of the line cabinet saw in it's class. It appears to be a very well made saw. One I would be happy to own, even at a premium price.

EXCEPT……

So I'm gonna beat this dead horse one more time. If there is any way possible, I will NOT let a critical piece of equipment be held hostage to 3 dollars worth of electronics, some plastic, and an aluminum block. And all of that from a single source company with no real history or track record. If the modules were readily available, multi-sourced, and even better fit an industry standard module footprint, I would probably have ended up with the Sawstop. My impression is that it looks like an excellent saw, and the safety system is icing on the cake. But like I keep saying, I'm not willing to risk a $3000 boat anchor.

alla salute!


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## Drew1House (Mar 18, 2007)

For what it is worth… My friend who owns timberline woodworking supply (timberlinetools.com) has sold well over 500 saws for them. Starting about 3 years ago… This year being a banner year for sales of the saws… well that being the case. I asked him about the saws reliability point blank… he has only had one come back for service on the electronics. He says about 50% of the trips of the mechanism are ones where no blood would have been drawn… Mostly people touching the blade as it has almost stopped moving a scrap out of the way or what have you… if the blade is still moving even a tiny bit that thing will go off. Then you are out between $70 and $130 depending on if you have to replace the blade or not. When the saw is not powered and the brake goes off sometimes the blade is fine… sometimes it is fine even when triggered while spinning if you can get the imbedded carbides out of the brake. I have seen countless brakes stuck to blades and have not seen one that has decimated the carbides (Strange) but in many cases I don't see the carbides as they are stuck in the aluminum so maybe sometimes they are all messed up? He sells a lot of spare cartridges… I suspect that many of them are sold to people just like you worried that they will not be available later… I am going to keep several on hand just to make sure they are always available. Several have gone off and saved serious injury… I was standing there last week when a guy walked in with a blade stuck to a brake… it was from his brother in laws saw he was using and he did not know how the saw worked and touched the blade to slow it down… the carbides nicked him as the blade slammed into the saw… he would have been better off with a unisaw… on the other hand 2 weeks ago a guy came in and bought a cartridge and made sure everyone in the store heard about his teenager son's hand not being severed when he did something dumb… I bet out of 30 to 40 sales of cartriges sold 20 are going to people who own saws as spares… the remander are divided evenly between those who accidently set the thing off… and those who were saved by the saw… 7-10 saves per month on 500 saws… actually falls in line with what Sawstop touts as stats for table saw injury if I am calculating correctly…

Drew


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## OutPutter (Jun 23, 2007)

I'll take a stab at the boat anchor issue here. In heavy manufacturing, it is almost mandatory that there are going to be replacement parts as soon as the product is brought to market. This is no exception I would bet. If the company begins to go out of business, it is not going to happen over night. It will be because of slow sales which means that there will be an excess of finished machines waiting to be sold as well as an excess of spare parts. As that scenario unfolds, rational consumers will begin to buy up the critical parts so they don't get caught. That will drive up the aftermarket price of the parts. That will insure that the manufacture of those parts will remain profitable even if the saw itself is not. I'd be willing to bet that even to this day there are sufficient Edsel parts to keep all the Edsels still in service running. That's why I think it's a red herring that owners may get stuck with a boat anchor. On the other hand, when it's my $3K on the line, I'm not likely to be taking much for granted. Then again, what do I know. ;-)

(Officially relinquishing this thread to the better good of the LJs)


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## Drew1House (Mar 18, 2007)

I did find this an hour ago… But it does not have anything to do with the electronics, this is the motor…

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66952

Drew


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Thanx Drew…That confirms some of the fears here and pretty much puts the screws to Sawstop.

They do have a great idea though and I truely think the device should be mandatory in schools and other public workshops. When you think of how anyone could accidentally put their fingers into a blade, getting bumped from behind comes to mind first, followed by inexperience, fatigue and carelessness.

This is also a great forum for the Sawstop Rep to see. Careful consideration of the comments here will produce a better product. The guy that designed it is not nessessarily a woodworker. We are.


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## mot (May 8, 2007)

Dadoo…who makes SawStops motors?


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## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I recently had an opportunity to purchase a Powermatic 66 that was taken out of a high school woodshop. It seems that some kid cut his hand completely off at the wrist on a band saw, and the school board decided under parental pressure to eliminate all power equipment from the woodshop program. I think that Sawstop regardless of the inferior motors could allow power tools to be used in schools again providing a necessary safety net for rookie woodworkers. I remember when I was in high school woodshop only the most experienced seniors were allowed to use the table saw and then it was only with direct instructor supervision.


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## Drew1House (Mar 18, 2007)

I am getting one… a 5 horse… from everything I have heard they have very few problems…. and when they have they are taken care of with lightening speed.

Drew


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Tom: KE TING LTD…Taiwan. I think I get your point but please don't make me look under my Craftsman saw for their manufacturer. The depression would probably kill me.

I went and looked…no tags present. Must've been made in heaven. Ha!

Drew: You'll have to let us know how it works out.


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## rob2 (Nov 27, 2007)

I cut off two fingers back in April on a powermatic. It was in a class doing a cut that I had discuissed with the instructor twice.

My wife "suggested" for her piece of mind that I get a SawStop so she wouldn't worry when I was using the saw in the shop alone. If I had been alone I could have had trouble getting help quickly.

I got the 3hp 220vac single-phase version. I seams to be a very well built saw. And SMOOTH. It is very heavy. Took four neighbors to lift it out of my truck. I also got the 36 in extension. There was a little bit of laminate sticking up. The edge of the laminate wasn't trimmed correctly. I emailed customer service and they sent me a new table in less than a week.

I think the Saw Strop is a wonderful tool. It is pricey but my fingers cost over $140,000 to reattach. Praise God for two wonderful surgeons.


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