# Bench top/contractor saw vs. Cabinet saws



## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

Since I have been a member here there have been a lot of discussions about table saw safety. Recently I read an article on this subject (for the life of me I can't find it now) that had some very interesting statistics.

The article was based on accident statistics, which were broken down into categories of the type saws involved in the accidents.

Not surprisingly the most dangerous were the light weight bench top models and the new light weight contractor style saws.

A very, very, distant third was the old style contractor saw. You know the type, the ones that took two men and a boy to move and all three ended up with hernia's.

And even farther down the line, I believe it was some where between 8-10 percent were the cabinet saws. It was stated that part of the reason these numbers could possibly be lower, was the people using these saws tended to be working in professional capacities and had better training and better maintained equipment.

But the two biggest contributors listed, besides human error, were weight and stability or I should say lack of. Neither of which bench top saws or the new lightweight contractor saws have.

The article did factor in the the use of splitters, riving knives and the sawstop. Surprisingly the numbers were not effected very much over all when these were used. I will say this, the stats they used started in the 60's,
and though they did account for the number of woodworkers increasing over the years, I don't believe the saw stop has been around long enough for a completely fair evaluation.

The heavier the saw was, the lower the number of accidents. Easy to understand, heavy = more stability and less vibration.

The bottom line was stability and vibration, these two appear to be the biggest contributors to table saw accidents.

I didn't need to read the article to find this out, over the years I've seen it first hand. But I never really thought about the stats involved.

Here are just a few contributors to accidents or near misses I've witnessed over the years

Light weight saws with flimsy legs
Bench top saw not anchored properly
Under powered saws 
Saws with too small of a foot print that always wanted to tip over

Lot to be said for almost 600 lbs of Unisaw or Powermatic.


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

Darn I almost forgot the biggest contributor IMO of all, DULL BLADES!


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

Boy Scot, I appreciate your time on this post, however you left out the single biggest contributor : Lack of experiance


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Where did you read this Scot? The article not accurate. You can get hurt just as quickly on a 700 lb. tablesaw as you can with 50 lb. saw. Anyone can work just as safely with a Ridgid/Dewalt/Bosch portable as they could with a heavier saw.

Here is a report from the National Product Safety Commission from 2011.

http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr12/tablesawANPR.html


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Is there a question, or a statement?
I have a Grizz 0444Z with cast wings. Heavy as can be, accurate to a fault, and it works for everything I've thrown at it. I still (as of today) have all my fingers. I also use every safety feature available.
IMO, money and design can't cure stupid.
I've hurt myself more with a hammer.
Bill


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

All the article was addressing was statistics on which type of saws had the most accidents and the root cause. It did not say there were no accidents on the heavier cabinet saws, just fewer. The point of the article was that heavier well made saws are safer but not fail safe.


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

You're right Cabmaker, I kind of glossed over that one.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I seriously doubt the assertion that Riving Knives haven't had an effect on table saw safety. Maybe none on blade contact accidents, but overall safety such as kickback, I highly doubt it… Having said that, yes more mass means the saw is more stable. Which would matter if you are ripping say an 8' long 6" wide 4/4 piece of oak, but maybe not so much if that board is 18" long…

Wobbly legs on a table saw IMHO are inexcusable. Although certain bench top class saws are far better than others, overall, they leave a bit to be desired…

There is a GOOD reason a lot of guys that own bench top, and contractor type saws end up building a table saw workstation around the saw. I've seen it done with a wide variety of everything from Powermatic contractor saws, all the way down to a lowly Skil bench top saw. (No joke, a guy on another board build a nice workstation for his red Skil table saw, and added a fence that probably cost more than the saw!).

I think the biggest contributor is pushing a machine beyond its capacity… Cross cutting plywood on a benchtop saw is just asking to have digits removed you know?


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

dbhost, I agree with what you say. The article was mainly geared towards pointing out the instability of small light weight machines using statitistical data starting in the 60's. I don't see how the numbers can not be skewed against riving knives, spliters and other safety devices since those have only recently been added as standard items on a lot saws. Splitters didn't become standard until the late seventies/early 80's and riving knives are still not standard on all saws. So I can see where they would say that they were basically a non issue in their study.
Again the study was more about how weight and stability affect the safety of table saws, with mentions of power (HP) and experience levels.
I'm not presenting an argument for or against any one saw or another. I just thought it was interesting at how much the numbers changed as the weight and stability of the saw went up.

Common sense should tell us that would be the way it is. I look at it as a reminder for all of us to be careful because lightweight or heavyweight, they can all bite.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Totally agreed…


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Scot, not much to add to the article other than I wish I had a cabinet saw, but your sig line is 1 billion% truth.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

It uses the incorrect terminology, a contractor saw is not the little popup saw on wheels. A contractor saw has a big cast iron top, motor hangs out the back, and it will run of 115V (in the US).

They probably mean jobsite saws when they say contractor saw.


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## BruceCM (Apr 3, 2012)

I suspect the difference between the injury rate on the inexpensive protables and the cabinet saws has to do with the experience and expertise of those using them. That is to say, those new to woodworking usually don't start out with a cabinet saw 

BruceM


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Scott? Do you have a link this this article you are talking about?


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

Shipwreck I've been trying to find it, I thought I had it book marked, but haven't been able to locate it.


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

Pat, I agree with you to a certain extent, when you say contractor saw, what you said is what I think of. However, there are companies out there making cheap light weight saws with aluminum tops and trunnions and slapping "10" professional contractor saw" stickers on them and selling them as such.

But again, the bottom line was that the heavier the saw, the more stable it tended to be and less accidents tended to happen.

And I did distinguish between contractor saws and bench top saws, which the stats in the article showed a substantial difference in the number of accidents between those two.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A lot of amputation happens to pros. You notice this
when you meet them and shake hands. If you've worked on
jobsites and seen some of the stupid things guys do to 
save a little time you wouldn't be surprised.

The careful amateur can avoid injury. Ironically there's a
lot of ignorance and/or contempt for safe work habits
among pros, some of whom have never cracked a book
on cabinetmaking and have major holes in their 
intellectual understanding of the craft.

Really the cult of the table saw and the availability of
inexpensive small table saws is not such a good 
combination for finger safety. There's a lot to go
wrong with table saw cuts and safety with the tool
is anything but intuitive.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

I have not read the article that Scott has been refering to, but I think whoever put the statistics together left out a very important piece of information. For every stationary saw in use on any given day, there are probably 100 portables in use at the same time. I would love to see how the author compiled his percentages.

*Loren: * You said it! I see idiots ever day on job sites operating portable saws in a very dangerous manner. I was on a job site for a bank this week and I walked past a trim carpenter operating a Bosch portable set up on 4 empty drywall buckets. My all time favorate was a portable set up on a wheelbarrow.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

*ship*

could it have been this guy


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

And those guys are supposed to be professionals! Unfortunatly, I have seen the same type stupidity on just about every job site I have been on. It makes me wonder if they think that just because they are using a small TS that the dangers are not there.

I'm still looking for that article. I'm sure with my poor memory and not being an author that I wasn't able to convey all the info clearly and accuratly.


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## MoPower (Feb 6, 2009)

I guess you could say he's using his head.


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Love the pic…............ lmao.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

I do think the lack of quality and stability of these low priced saws tend to increase the injury level. They scare me.

Loren said it quite well. The attitude about safety from some pros astounds me. I've seen reports where it's claimed the pros are most likely to get hurt. This is due to the amount of time spent using the saw, the fact that time is money, so lets hurry, and the lack of respect, or fear they have for the machine. One actually told me he considered fingers were expendable, and fully expected to lose a couple.

You can believe, before I hire anybody, I take a quick look at their hands. If they're missing parts, I'm not too likely to want them around. I have no desire to witness any shop accidents, nor do I want the insurance increase.

Lee


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Cheaply made portables like Skil, B&D, Ryobi etc. etc. etc…...........*scare me.* I will not use them for any reason.

The Bosch, Dewalt, and Ridgid are in a much different class of portables. They are made extremely well and have bette rip fences than alot of stationary saws. My Ridgid R4510 is one of the best buys I ever made with tools. There are alot of people in the Bosch camp that can say the same thing.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

*EVERY table saw *will cut fingers OFF.(Yes even the Sawstop, use the overide switch to cut damp lumber).
In my mind the accidents that do happen are caused by TIME & Money. Get it done FAST ! This is making a piece of equipment do something it was not designed to do. *Not* making the TIME to set up a portable saw on something solid to work with makes me angry. If your doing woodwork and *DO NOT *have patience….you might want to re-think and get another hobby. When I went to cabinet school the SAME fellow cut his thumb in 1/2 and planed his little finger OFF the first year, he had no patience, would not listen to advice from anyone !
I have used portable jobsite saws, I did not like them because I was more comfortable with the Table Saw I had in my shop. The FEAR of using a tool will also add to the danger, if you are thingking the tooth of a spinning blade is going to fly off, you are NOT concentrating on what you need to do to make the saw work safely (example standing off to far to one side to avoid that "Tooth Flying off, and not feeding the lunber into saw properly)
Eveyone has a different opinion on what they think is safe, just becaue you see somone doing it, don't try it yourself if you are NOT comfortable. BETTER YET don't do something just because your fellow worker says "WE DO IT THAT WAY ALL THE TIME "


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## Oldelm (Jun 11, 2012)

I have owned several TS's over the years including a 3 HP unisaw and have cut several thousand feet of material. I have had a few instances with TS's that I remember well. I guess I can be considered lucky that no serious injury resulted. Because of space constraints I now have a Dewalt 744. I like the saw and it serves me well. I have equipped it with the Dewalt out feed and side supports, a Shark Guard, shop made cut off sled, shop made feather boards, shop made push sticks,an Incra 1000SE and a shop made tenon jig. I can't slam 50 sheets of 3/4 ply thru it in an hour but it will do what I need to do. All that said it will injure you just like a unisaw will or for that mater a circular saw, or a cut off saw or a radial arm. If your a lion tamer you don't turn your back on little one anymore than the big one. Please think about what you are trying to accomplish and try to do it safely and include all the other things, like shop clutter or slippery floors or shoes or any of the other things that will make it easy for the lion to get you. Before it is said I fully realize that the accessories for my 744 cost as much as the saw, and I say it's my $ and my digets and my comfort level.
Jim, Missouri


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