# Education in America - Republicans and the Poor



## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

It is no surprise that education springs to the front of issues every time another election cycle comes up in America. The propaganda flies and folks start complaining about their teachers back in high school. Of course it is always THAT teacher's fault that Bubba didn't learn, didn't do homework, didn't attend school, etc. nor end becoming President or a millionaire, or some such story. It is never the students fault, never the parent's fault, but always the school's fault or the government's fault. How convenient, and how incorrect…

Do you ever wonder why the GOP always wants to cut education funding and the Democrats are always trying to expand education funding? The proof is in the pudding and an educated populace tends to vote more progressive (Democrat). So if you ever wondered why the GOP wants to cut funding for public education, now you know. Sure, the GOP will try to sell "state's rights" and corporate "charter schools" as a better alternative. Test scores prove them wrong. But if the GOP can confuse the issue then funding suffers and more importantly education suffers. Poorly informed voters are republican's best friend.

*BOTTOM LINE: The GOP is threatened by an educated public that can vote.*

Some things to consider:

*House GOP Seeks to Cut Aid for Literacy, STEM Education*
By Erik Robelen on February 13, 2011 8:33 PM
Republican leaders in the House have released a proposal to eliminate funding for a variety of federal education programs, including ones focused on adolescent literacy, math and science education, and teaching U.S. history.

*Proof Progressive States Are Better Educated Than Right Wing States*
++ From 2007-8 article-The author "...wanted to know how right wing red states fared against progressive blue states in this year's Morgan Quitno Smart State rankings. Which group of states has a better record of education on the whole, right wing or progressive? The results are very clear:

Average progressive blue state Smart State ranking: 19
Average right wing red state Smart State ranking: 29.19

*Republicans and the Poor*
Ezra Klein writes today about Republican Party priorities:
I'm not saying that congressional Republicans don't care about poor people.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't say that, but whatever. Onward:

But they really care about rich people. So far, the policy agenda they've pushed has been a mixture of very expensive tax cuts for the very wealthy and very deep cuts to a lot of programs that focus on the very poor…

....Now they've moved onto deficit reduction, or at least spending cuts, and their priorities in the 2011 budget are telling. Their cuts are coming from non-defense discretionary spending. That's a category of spending, as you can see here, that tends to focus on services to the poor, the jobless and children. Among other cuts, they've proposed slicing more than $1 billion off Head Start, $1.1 billion off the Public Housing Capital Fund, $752 million from the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children, or WIC, and $5.7 billion from Pell Grants. I could, of course, go on. Democrats have tried to widen the cuts out to other categories so their impact falls less heavily on the disadvantaged, but so far, Republicans have refused. If we're going to cut spending, we're going to do it on the backs of the poor.

In other words, congressional Republicans don't care about poor people…

*GOP now defining itself on education*
When it came to education, former (Mississippi) Gov. Haley Barbour got to the political precipice and stepped back.

Barbour, like most Mississippi governors, certainly understood the importance of education to the state's economic and social health. Unlike most of the governors before him, however, it never appeared to be a passionate priority. Politically, public education supporters are a strong force, however, and he abided them.

However, when it got to specific acts, his proposals to reduce education funding - in a state among the lowest in public education support - were met with strong opposition, to the point his solid Republican legislative support began to falter.

When it became clear that he was getting defined as hostile to public education, he would back down.

*The zeal of the new Republican leadership in the House and Senate to take dramatic actions on education early on is taking them - and perceptions of the GOP - to that precipice again.*

The charter school debate going on in the Legislature is a sea change step. It is more than jut about charter schools. While charter schools could be a positive part of the education mix, the radical approaches being pushed by GOP leaders are potentially harmful on several levels.

The idea that top state policy makers are taking a position that parents must go around the educational leadership of the state and their local communities for educational improvement is troubling. (Remember when the creation of the state lay Board of Education was a heralded reform?)

*What is more troubling is a growing perception of hostility to public education by state GOP leaders. This is coupled with the even greater problem of Gov. Phil Bryant's proposed budget that calls for education cuts. Then there are the truly looney political pandering proposals regarding such things as school prayer and telling teachers how to teach history to protect students from nasty liberal ideas.*


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

Well, unfortunately it doesn't really fall down to party lines. There is enough blame on both sides of the aisle.

The fact is that schools have plenty of money. They just spend it on the wrong things.

The biggest money goes to transportation. How have we developed to the point where a child is unable to cross the street? Why is it the school district's responsibility to transport every student regardless of how far they live? I am not talking about rural districts. Nothing to be done about that. If the traffic is not obeying the law around school zones, give them tickets or take away their licenses. Hey, confiscate the cars and give the auction proceeds to the schools. People will catch on pretty quickly.

We have hordes of mystery administrators in all the districts. We are full of program directors, facilitators, assistant administrator for this and that. We have in Texas, last time I looked over 1200 school districts. (Don't even get me started on the school boards and their interesting spending…) Each with their little kingdom of assistant superintendent for this and that. Chapter I, Title whatever, Bilingual, Elementary Curriculum, Secondary Curriculum, Technology: the list of directors goes on and on. Oh, and now add Chief of Police positions as well. There are districts that have as many of these administrators as they do teachers.

I don't mind feeding the kids. That is really minor compared to the other stuff and at least it goes to the students.

The other real problem is that as long as we have the current mentality here in the U.S., we will never have our children achieve as well as most of the rest of the world. The main difference is that somehow, here in the U.S. it has become the sole responsibility of the teacher that students learn. Everywhere else the responsibility is on the students. In these other countries, if you don't want an academic path, they offer a trade path. If they don't want to be in school at all, there is the door.

We have marginalized all of the students that wish to pursue a non-academic path. We have taken out almost all of the programs for any trades. Those that are left have been turned into the dumping ground for special education so their test scores don't count against the school. Then the students that have no desire for an academic track are just there killing time and getting into trouble as idle children do. When it escalates into things that would be classified as felonies in the real world, they just sweep it under the carpet because they don't want to be in the news.

There are many more problems that this but honestly, few of them are related to the teachers. Yes, some are better than others. Take some of the money saved and increase teacher salaries. Make it a career where you don't have to take vows of poverty when you go in. Make it where they are not having to be there from 7am to 7pm with all the nonsense of playground duty and bus duty, after school tutoring, coaching extra curricular activities just to be able to pick up some money to make up for all the out of pocket spending they get stuck with in the classroom. Make it a job that people want rather than a job of last resort.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I have to agree with both Mike and David. The rational of the republicans has always been to cut education as its not needed since they are the smart ones that run the country.

To add fuel to the misspent fire mentioned by *David*. The head of the San Clara school district was just hired at a salary of $299,500 with a $12,000 car allowance and some trivial perks for another $20,000 towards his retirement credits. This is good news as the previous superintendent was getting $332,600!

How many textbooks and computers can two thirds of that salary buy? The rational in this case is that to get results we need highly qualified people. These "people" never see the kids!!!!

In the end we will all pay for cutting education! What makes so difficult to compete with the Japanese, Chinese, and Taiwanese in technical and scientific areas is the fact that they prize education (sometimes to highly leading to suicides in Japan) above all. Germany is not far behind and they also have a lot of technical schools for those that do not/cannot go to a University.

If we want to maintain our technical edge, if we haven't lost it yet, we need to focus on education. Perhaps we need to think outside the box and come up with a better way to teach!

Just for the heck of it take a look at this web site: Kahn

This started almost as a whim and now nearly every topic is covered. I am not saying that this is the answer but overcrowded class rooms are apparently not working very well either and, it doesn't require a superintendent jut a bunch of IT guys.


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

God, won't the election ever get here…..............


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## fussy (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike,

I have to agree with all of you so far. Having two daughters who are teachers (both with Masters and 4.0 in grad school, both with rank one, one with national board certification and the other working on it), and a wife who has taught in public schools for 25 years, and having had as teachers every female in my family for 3 generations, I can tell you that the roots of our educational malaise are deep and varied.

Begin with overpaid beuracrats and political lackeys using the schools as a spoils source for money. How about the parents who worry more about their baby's feelings and sense of self worth than their ability to compete for and hold a job. And yes, the right wing has been trying to kill education for 50 or 60 years. Go back to Spiro T. Agnew's trivialization of "pointy-headed liberal acadamicians".

You're absolutely right, Mike, that an ignorant populace is easy to manipulate. Just watch the poor ignorant schmucks jump up in rage and do the GOP's dirty work for them and make sure taxes on the rich and mega corps stay low or dissapear. Watch them howl in fury until they have absolutely nothing and the rich have it all.

Schools in this country are in trouble, but the teachers are not at fault, although many have given up in frustration and are simply trying to survive until they can retire.

For an intriguing example of what dedicated teachers can do when the system works WITH THEM, check this article: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

Steve


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

There are countries that spend 5 dollars for every 10 that we spend and thier kids are kicking ass. The politicians love to stand at the podium and tell you that they will improve our schools with XXXXXX amount of money, because they know most of us are too busy or too lazy to see what the problems really are.

Enrollment is up by 9% since 1970, while school employment has risen over 90%. A good many of these positions have nothing to do with teaching our children. This graph was prepared by Andrew J. Coulson and is widely regarded as accurate. We have almost 10 times more school employees and our kids are performing worse than in 1970.

My question is: Why are home schooled children out performing public school children? If money was the actual problem, then home school kids should fare far worse.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Shipwreck:Why are home schooled children out performing public school children? *

Simple answer is THEY ARE NOT. But that does not stop the Republican propaganda machine from making you want to believe that they are.

Homeschoolers that I have personally known and dealt with, in both public and charter school environments, are a sad lot on average. The main reason for these parents to homeschool is because they become outraged when the school fails to "parent" their child like THEY want, or because they do not want THEIR child disciplined by the school, amoung other things. Don't EVEN get me talking about bringing some individual's peronal religion into the school and expecting the teachers to cater to THAT to the detrement of other students!

These cast-offs flowed into my (not mine personally, but the one I administered) charter school in droves, with attitudes and academic deficits that were/are staggering. Just what do you do with a 17-18 year old boy that barely performs at the 7th grade level… put him next to YOUR 13yr old daughter in the 7th grade classroom? Yeah, sure… (NOT!). And I saw this particular kind of student come through the doors frequently. The better funded, larger schools and school districts actively drive this type of student away from "their" schools and into the streets. THAT is just one of many issues that could/would be solved with better parenting and extended parental responsibilities.

You mention that employment in education has expanded at a disproportionate rate. I AGREE completely.

1. Let's stop requiring schools to "parent" these kids. Change the laws and make parents take their little joy of discontent(child) to work with them when they misbehave at school. And yes, enforce this with truancy officers and parent citations.

2. Quit wasting all the Billion$ on sports and athletics. Think of all the money that is spent on bumper sticker parents who never attend their own child's events yet want bragging rights around the water cooler or tail-gate. All that money spent on football, for example, just so a couple of dozen privately held professional football teams can have a large pool of wannabes to fill just ~600 professional player positions in the entire country! The same can be said for basketball, tennis, swimming, etc. Privately held businesses profiting from public school funds.

I could go on, but for now think about this…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

OldNovice,
Kahn Academy-I did catch this last evening. What a breath of fresh air to see the Internet used as it was designed, for free information sharing/education. I only fear that some greedy entity will incorporate this concept and again, fail to serve the poor and those in most need of education.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

David,
I have always advocated for vocational training/education. I believe that the demise of this can be attributed to the rampent number of lawsuits from parents who were in denial that their own child may have diminished academic abilities and would be better suited in a particular trade. Many trades pay better than professional positions that require college degrees. Parents hate branding and/or ability testing. I personally think they all live in Garrison Keeler's Lake Wobegon,

"...Welcome to Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average…"


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I enjoyed the Kahn Academy story. He's a local boy who graduated from the same high school as my wife.

As to your original point, I'll just say that most politicians, regardless of party, don't want the public to be educated about the inner workings of government. :-(

If you think the democratic party has pristine motives because it is always calling for more money to be spent of good causes like education, I think you are being a little naive. The republicans try to get votes by playing to peoples fear, ignorance, and prejudices. The democrats try to get votes by giving stuff away.

Different schtick…. same motive.


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with Mike's comment above, and in both of these education threads I don't see enough about the parents role. I know it is terribly non-PC to say, but kids do well when their parents value education and support the kids at home. Teachers are terribly important, but can only do so much. This is one of the great fallacies with standardized student testing to evaluate teacher performance; if your teaching kids who don't care, from families who don't care, and communities that don't care, your trying to piss up a rope. More money won't change that. Better teachers will help a small amount, but not nearly enough.

I'm fortunate enough to have my kids in a district (in NJ) that spends well below the State average per pupil (~$11k vs ~$16k) but has terrific test scores, very low drop out rates, and 90+% of kids go to 4 year colleges. Why, because the whole community values education, parents are very involved, and kids are expected to learn. It's not acceptable to do poorly (versus when I was a kid and the smart kids used to get beat up every day for showing up the other kids.)

I think teachers should be paid well; I have no issues with NJ teacher pay rates, which are very good. But just throwing more money at schools isn't an answer. And yes, I believe this applies to both inner cities and rural schools, this is not just an inner city (read Black and Latino) problem.

Just imagine, if we, as a Nation, placed just half as much emphasis on academic performance as we do on athletics! What a wonderful world that would be.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Charley,
No niavity about the Dems, but I do believe that in today's political climate the GOP is/are "...trying to piss up a rope…" as John says above, when trying to drive educational policy, IMO.

FWIW, I know what it is like to work in an affluent school. I worked in the 8th largest school district in Texas for a decade, before moving to several other much smaller one HS districts and even into an inner-city charter school setting. I do have to say that the larger districts were much more cold-hearted in how they served poorer students than they were with squeeky rich parents. This ALWAYS upset me, especially since at any point in time only 25% of the population have kids enrolled in schools across the nation. The rest of the "public" abdicate any and all interest in the educational system.

I too would add a word of caution about being niave just because the proverbial you may live in an affluent school district. Unserved/underserved students are everyones problem, no matter where they currently reside. Those kids are only a short bus ride away from interacting with all others (be it positive or negative). I did not always feel that way, not until having run a school geared upon serving such needy students.

It all does go back to what John says about "whole community values education". The only issue I have with that is/are the tall fortress walls built around the edge of such school districts.

The only reason for having ~1,200 school district (in Texas for example) is to destabilize the teachers'/educators' voting block. Heaven forbid that educators might organize and vote for REAL educational reform… Keep them poorly paid and throw them some political scraps once in a while to win votes (and I am talking about BOTH parties here).


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

I couldn't agree more that poor education is everyone's problem. If you don't want to talk about the equality issues in providing everyone a good education so they can reach their full potential, just imagine the cost savings to taxpayers in providing a good education versus more police, more prisons, more unemployment/welfare/supplemental support. Education is an investment in our future, not a cost.

My main point about parental responsibility is that we need to do more to try to hold the parents accountable and encourage them to support their kids. I don't claim to know the best way to do this, but I think it starts with getting in the parents faces and making it clear that they are at least as much to blame, if not more, than the schools. I'd be curious to know if there has been much research into providing support/training to parents and the impact on kids. As long as parents see schools as babysitters and surrogate parents, those districts are doomed.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Education is over-rated. We're destined for anarchy anyway.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

John,
It is no secret that Texas likes their "for-profit" private prisons. It plays right into their Republican run State government. Texas GOP would lock every dissenting voice up if they could. And they would do it, not for any sense of justice, but just for the profit motive. Hell, a Pennsilvania judge was even found guilty of stacking the juvinelle prison system with kids into a 'private' prison that the judge apparently had a financial interest in.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Noun 1. dissenting opinion - an opinion that disagrees *
I have one of these
Like I said, education is over-rated.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

fixed it. MY opinion is that my spell check does not work on my laptop.

I also understand, as you have stated elsewhere, that being a republican does not MAKE/CAUSE stupidity. On the other hand the converse… No, wait… I can't say that that is my opinion when in fact it was scientific research fact/findings. *;-)*

V


> V
> Bertha
> home | projects | blog
> 9230 posts in 426 days
> ...


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Mike, I'd like to suggest that you've dealt with people (students and parents) who have failed at home schooling. I bet most started failing in public school first. My point is that successful homeschoolers have nothing to do with public school administrators. Looking into what makes home schooling work could be part of the solution to the problems listed above. -Jack


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jack,
That is probably true, though home schooling is such a miniscule part of the overall educational picture/landscape. I know that home schooling can work, however, IMO that model can not really be scaled up to really make a nationwide difference, particularly in the poorer populations. Great for the rich/affluent.


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

Mike:

There are problems with both privatized and public run institutions. In the public, the profit is a lot harder to track down than in the privatized. It is usually in the form of payoff jobs and sweet contracts that would make Halliburton blush. The 1200 school districts have nothing to do with breaking teachers voting blocks. In the majority of places, the school district is by far the largest segment of the economy. Last place I taught, the 2nd largest employer had about 300 employees. The largest was the school district with nearly 3000. That is why the most heavily contested elections are the school boards. Control the school district and you control a huge segment of the jobs and spending for the community. That is tremendous political clout and rife with corruption and abuse.

In education, there is quality in both private and publicly run schools at all levels. There are also losers in both categories. Private or public is not a useful metric. Having been in the military, how would you compare the government run VA hospital or privately run hospitals? If they are following the same guidelines, it shouldn't make any difference whether they are public or private. Do you think that they provide a similar level of care?

As to the prisons, I can see one definite advantage to privately run facilities. They don't have the almost boundless immunity from prosecution that the state has. But in this case it doesn't really add to the dialog. The role of schools is clearly defined but the role of the penal system is a bit more vague. We have really mixed public attitudes as to what the penal system should do. Some think it should punish, some think it should rehabilitate, and all that ends up happening is warehousing people that then cannot integrate back into society.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

Mike,

You may have a problem. Like the Wall Street Journal, you might consider not identifying the Republican Party as the GOP. It seems FAUX News and hate radio talk shows have failed to inform their minions that "GOP' stands for Grand Old Party which is another name for the Republican Party. The indoctrinated are just not going to get their talking points right if you don't specifically say "Republican Party."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/03/politics/main531460.shtml


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*V



V
Bertha
home | projects | blog
9230 posts in 426 days #29 posted 3 hours ago

they see me trollin … they hatin
lol

Republicans made my kids stupid, lol.

Click to expand...

*


> I fail to see what point repeating my post serves, but if we must. They can read the original material. Original material, like that found in a peer reviewed journal. They generally come pre-spell-checked for you. As a scientist yourself, I'm surprised at what you qualify as scientific investigation. Do they Daubert expert witnesses in astronomy? Might want to check on that.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Al, With the alphabet you've got after your name, tell us what you think is is over-rated. IMO a high school diploma is over rated and should be replaced with a national GED. Any one should be able to sit for this GED test at 13 or 14 years of age.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

There has been many people that have tried to come up with something that the federal Dept of Education has accomplished and nobody has come up with something that did something positive but still cost us billions. Give that money to the states and shut down the federal part - my point of view.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^I agree with you, Jack. I think we should emphasize the trades and prepare students to "DO" something, whatever it is. I just happened to pick a job that requires a lot of years and money (translated a lot of letters). Not sure how that really happened because I was electrical engineering all the way when I started college. No smarter now than if I had. If I had known that I could work my way into professional engineering, I wouldn't have gone to college. We see a lot of young folks graduating from college and even postgrad schools that aren't really prepared to "do" anything! They wax poetic over $7 coffees and "occupy" their time. Shop and home economics are long gone from most curricula. I went the long way to have what was called a "guaranteed job" back in the day, lol. Back when what you did meant as much as your paycheck; remember those days? Truth is, I just didn't have the guts to strike it out on my own in the trades. Nothing more than that, Jack.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Al - totally agree
Education is 9/10 how it is presented, if teachers cannot present it in a way the students understand, it is worthless. At the same time, what education you have is 100% what you do with it. Currently our society is all about what is given and not what we do with it. I have known very well educated people on welfare because they can't do something or other and NEED help. With a GED, when I became unemployed, I started a company and paid my bills for over a decade until I closed the company. Education doesn't have to be the greatest, what you do with what you have is what matters.

As you go, you WILL learn more


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

For what it is worth Mike. I could care less what the democrats or republicans say on any issue. Both parties are filled with corruption and, being led by special interests. Any person in thier right mind would never follow either party…........... IMHO.

I believe you are wrong in saying that home schooled children are worse off than publicly schooled children for a multitude of reasons. You may have been exposed to some lunk heads, but overall…...home school children perform way better on SAT's and other exams.

1. They are not exposed to school violence.
2. They do not miss school because teachers are on strike.
3. More control over outside influences.
4. Flexibility of subjects
5. Curriculum that Complements Your Faith or Values.
6. Students with medical needs.
7. Parental involvment
8. Inadequate educational standards
9. They done waste time with traveling to and from school.
10. The school does not have to parent the children.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Wow, I go out and spend half a day in the shop and now need to catch up.

*David: …Last place I taught, the 2nd largest employer had about 300 employees. The largest was the school district with nearly 3000… *

This is exactly my point David. Taken at a State level, the teacher/educator block scares the crap out of all politiians and THAT is why all the State governments want and DO keep this voting block divided. Teachers/educators outnumber all other employers groups. "Independent School Districts" are anything but independent.

*David: …how would you compare the government run VA hospital or privately run hospitals?*

Well, nearly 10 years ago I hit a deer on my bike. The local ambulance picked me up, but did NOT want to drive all the way to San Antonio(~40mi.) and begged the local "private" hospital to let them tyake me there (~30mi.) I was in no shape to choose one of the other. I was taken to the local "private" hospital and they bounced me in less than one hour to San Antonio (NOW ~50mi. away). Reason given, they said they could not intubate me (this is nothing more than shoving a tube down my airway if I stop breathing. This was the friggin' emergency room of this 'private' hospital.

Now I had to be transported AGAIN by these same EMTs all the additional 50mi. down an Interstate that was under heavy repair. All the top paving had been removed and ALL bridges had 2-3in. 'bumps' where the missing pavement matched up to the bridge. I had five broken ribs and was almost knocked off the gurney several times when they sped(yes sped) over these bumps. For obvious reasons, I will NEVER forget this 'private' hospital experience.

*David: …As to the prisons, I can see one definite advantage to privately run facilities. They don't have the almost boundless immunity from prosecution that the state has…*

They are only advantage when you have such folks like West Virginia Forensic Medical Examiner/Profession Prosecution Witness Fred Zane sent hundreds to over a thousand(s) to jail in Bexar Couty Texas WITH FALSE TESTIMONY. I lived under this back in the '70-80s. Fred Zane had done this same kind of professional falsehood back in West Virginia before he came to Texas. Ask Al(Bertha), he has that same kind of job as Fred Zane and Al even does this in that same State of West Virginia.

Plus, look up the judge from PA that was getting kickback $$$$ for filling up a privately run Juvenile Detention Center.

BTW, Texas has more people in jail than any other state in America, and America outranks any other country in the WORLD. Talk about a Prison State. And down here you don't have to be guilty, just get a crooked County Medical Examiner/Witness to 'tweak' the evidence for you.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

ShipWreck:

*1. They are not exposed to school violence.*

Oh yes they are. They are legally allowed to go out for school sports. I have already had to deal with this one in particular.

*2. They do not miss school because teachers are on strike.*

NO, their parents just never get around to doing any teaching and then bitch at the kid for not DOING their homework.

*3. More control over outside influences.*

Not any more than any other parent. That is unless you plan on keeping them locked in a room, but that is not legal.

*4. Flexibility of subjects*
Not true. There are State mandated requirements that MUST be met. You can add stuff, but you CANNOT take away.

*5. Curriculum that Complements Your Faith or Values.*

Only as an 'added' subject AFTER you meet ALL of the State mandated requirements. That also means State Achievement Tests.*

6. Students with medical needs.*

No different than what is done in schools across the nation.

*7. Parental involvment*

Only when they choose to be involved. Parents could become involved with their childs education WHILE THE CHILD IS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS AS WELL. I have had parents pull students out of school determined to 'home school' their child, only to return them to the public school a couple of weeks/months later with even BIGGER educational deficits than the student had before they left. Many are then failed and must repeat the grade.

*8. Inadequate educational standards*
Don't know where you are going with this one. The State mandates the 'educational standards'. They are NOT something you make up on your own.

*9. They done waste time with traveling to and from school.*

No, ... just waiting on Mom or Dad to come home from work so the child will have an at-home teacher. This is one of the biggest failings of parents. They do not understand what they are getting into when they go storming out of the school demanding to home school their little darling.

*10. The school does not have to parent the children.*

Unless, they expect the school to let their child play/engage in school sports. Then it becomes a nightmare of potential bullying and related socialization headaches (on both sides).


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

*Clint Searl: "...Take your limp wristed whining somewhere else…"*

Clint, take YOUR Homophobia over to David Grime's and RandyM68's thread. It is NOT welcome here.

Welcome to being blocked for such an attitude. By By Now…


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Facts are facts Mike. Public schools are failing. Private, and home school kids are excelling. All you have to do is follow your nose with a little research and find the truth for yourself.

Have fun with your demo vs. repub campaign.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

*Ask Al(Bertha), he has that same kind of job as Fred Zane and Al even does this in that same State of West Virginia.
*

Do me a favor, Mike, don't bring me into your garbage unless you know what you're talking about. Zane was a toxicologist; I'm a physician. 
. 
And you'll see what he does here with his word smithing:
.
Take this:
*done this same kind of professional falsehood *
.
and add:
*Al even does this in that same State *
.
To suggest that I participate in stating falsehoods. Which would mean I lied under oath. Which is an attack on my professionalism. Which is slander. You're treading on thin ice, Mike.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Shipwreck, having served these same kids, I know better. Sure, a few places will excel, but the vast majority of home/private schooling FAILS and fails miserably. The problem is the profit motive that skims much needed funding from where it is needed.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Al,
After having discussed this very matter (Zane) with me at another time, you are now saying that this kind of thing doesn't exist? That it was never brought to your attention during your training?(you had told me that it WAS brought up and emphasized).

Don't go get bent out of shape about this, unless that is your sole purpose to do so. I thought you could explain the ethics issues that Fred Zane's conduct presents going forward. But if all you want to do is flap your wings and NOT help explain, then be my guest Al, and flap away…


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

The issue I see with my school district here in Wa. has nothing to do with either party, but does have to do with people being people. I can't remember talking to any of the teachers, when I asked what their goal in teaching was, that administration didn't come up. How many principles does one high school need? I would much rather had my children taught by someone who wanted to teach, there just are not enough of them to go around.
As far as home schooling, I don't have the credentials for it. The math my daughters doing now in advance placement algebra is way beyond me. Kinda made me feel bad until we had to find her a tutor due to extended illness. Her math teacher must be something special, cause they can't find a replacement.
I am overall happy with the school district that I live in. 
I agree Mike that the focus on tearing down our education system is designed to retard the pursuit of educating young minds. I think the tribal leaders in Afghanistan practice the same philosophy.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Your intention was quite clear, Mike. When did I claim that an ethical breach doesn't exist? My problem is with your claim that I was engaged in said breach (see above). That is slanderous. No one asked me to explain anything, so how can I be guilty of NOT helping? You like referring to a previous post, then using the expression, "going forward", as if some arbitrary turning point was reached. Your arguments are temporally disjointed. The allegation that you're engaged in an argument with yourself is not without merit. I don't get the avian reference. I'm sure it's funny, though.

I'm beginning to see why many people consider you so extremely toxic, Mike. You're engaged in a bizarre electronic adult version of "I know you are but what am I?" It's really quite interesting but more in a disturbing way than an entertaining one. I'm kind of over the novelty of it.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I had just given you an opportunity to explain Fred Zane, and all you are doing is going postal on me. Wow, just wow…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

JeepTurner SAID: "...I agree Mike that the focus on tearing down our education system is designed to retard the pursuit of educating young minds. I think the tribal leaders in Afghanistan practice the same philosophy…"

Somehow, I would not doubt at all that other nations practice tight control over their respective educational systems. Knowledge is power, and those who control knowledge also control power.

Funny you should mention that you are happy with your schoold district. Poll after poll will show that this is a very common preception of those polled. Everyone is happy with their own district but exhibit concerns about schools elsewhere. I think a lot of this is a result of how much the media can bias all of us, not only about educational matters, but other political matters as well. Kind of a Big Brother thing, if you ask me…

UPDATE:
You asked how many administrators does a school need? The answer soley depends on how well behaved the student body is. An average work load for administrators is one administrator for each 500-700 students. Not a light load, but a good average. Now imagine just the one-percenters going off on any given day. That is 5-7 students that can take anywhere from 15min to over an hour of your time EACH (calling parents, assigning detention, escorting to detention, or waiting on parents in case of suspension, etc.).


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

It isn't always about who scores better in school but how theur school also prepares them for the rest of the world. Although homeschooled children do seem to do better grades wise msnbc just ran an article on a recent study; it showed that homeschool children do more poorly in college education and real world success. Private schools followed by catholic then public schools had higher rates of success past homeschoolers. It didn't surprise me at all since every homeschool kid I ever met was socially inept and unable to deal with people or fast moving situations.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Russ = +10

This has been my experience with home schoolers who would enter schools I administered (mostly small 1-2 HS sized districts). Coping skills do require social interaction to perfect, and without that socializing opportunity these students do suffer.

It is never an either or situation that all home schooling is good/bad. When we are talking about the entire student population of the country, than 'averages' become very important. One or two shining examples are not enough to justify altering the entire landscape of education across America. Home schooling does have its place, though I doubt that that place is serving the poor.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Mike the question of, "How may administrators does a school need?" was rhetorical. The point I was trying to illustrate is the problems I see in school are the same problems I see in manufacturing. All those teachers I have dealt with have this goal of becoming administrators. I have never met one that said something like this, "I became a teacher because I want to teach. I want to develop the minds of these youngsters to become critical independent thinkers." 
I don't think it's a problem with our schools, it's a problem of our culture. It's a culture where you are judged not by the way you live your life, but by the amount of wealth you have accumulated. People associate management with success, and that's where they want to go. 
I don't think the public school system is bad, although there are some where poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, and crime make it almost impossible for students to focus of the task of getting an education. 
One large education system seems to get a ton of support from both sides of the aisle, that's our penal system. 2.8 million students and growing every day.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm thinking you have student athletes wanting to play, but flunking out -saying they are homeschooling? In my case the law seems to say homeschooled kids can participate in sports and music programs. When I inquired about it, an administrator got back to me with a 'clarification' that it was not allowed. Most teachers I've had contact with are great, principal and administrators - not so much. After four kids and 18 years homeschooling, we found public school involvement over-rated. If the local school system gave me $70K to educate my kids I might think differently. -Jack

Russ, I'd appreciate a link. Personal experience and my links above don't agree with you. -Jack


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Mel,
I understand your point, however the same could be said about everyone who became a 'stockboy'. How many became stockboys just because they wanted to be a stockboy for the rest of their life?

To tell you the truth, once I made administrator status, it was only a couple of years before I was reminded just how 'nice' being a classroom teacher really was. But one needs to experience such things to make those decisions for ones self. I would never want to tell someone else that they should be completely satisfied at a particular position/level in their career.


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

I come to Lumberjocks to spend some enjoyable time reading and discussing things that interest me. Flamewars do not fit my definition of enjoyable and my tolerance for them faded years ago. Life is too short. Time for me to go out into the garage and make something.

I am looking forward to talking to *all* of you about woodworking. As far as I am concerned, the off topic stuff no longer exists and will not be read.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

You need help, Mike. David, I'll catch you in another thread about woodworking.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

You are right Al. I asked for your help and you went postal. That was not exactly helpful.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

*"but the vast majority of home/private schooling FAILS and fails miserably"*

Thank you, Mike, for showing exactly how incomplete your knowledge is of this subject. Heaven forbid a family should choose an alternative education method and get better results than a left-backed, inadequate public education system.

Sorry, Mike, you've got me seeing red on this one.

Here's some research for you


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Dan, I'm thinking the* problems facing public education* are never going to be addressed if people describe them as being caused by the left or the right. Everyone will agree that it's inadequate. I don't think pouring more money into the system is the answer but neither is burning it down. The public education system should be fixed. Everybody is and should be responsible. -Jack


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Part of the problem with education is that it doesn't prepare students for life in the 21st Century. When public education first took hold, it was to the benefit of the industrialists who needed employees with a better understanding of math & science than they were getting on the farm. Education reflected this with a focus on math and English but very little on practical life skills like how to manage money. Manufacturing in America has declined and what's left is dumbed down through machines or specific to the job; most new jobs are in the service sector and you don't need much education for that so public education is less important to the 'Haves' who no longer want to pay for it and we are seeing the effect of that across the nation. Recently one of the major cities in the midwest took $4 million out of the school budget to bribe a local company not to move their headquarters. The company stayed but promptly laid off 2000 workers.

But we have a new problem… in the 19th and early 20th centuries communication and media were slow, the public didn't have much effect on policy and it was left to more educated minds but now every Tom, Dick and Harry have a strong opinion on everything from genetics to climate change without the education to know what they don't know. Politicians have used this ignorance to whip up opposition to things like alternative fuels which would be hugely beneficial to America. What we need is to define the skills that will be needed going forward. Algebra is great but few people use any beyond the very basics, but developing creativity, teaching the importance of a healthy diet/lifestyle, developing critical thinking, and preparing for a productive and gainful vocation are all more important to the decades ahead.


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## eccentrictinkerer (Feb 9, 2010)

Here in Minneapolis we spend $13,454 per pupil in our schools. Average class size for second grade is 25. That's $336,350 for one classroom.

Let's say we pay the teacher $100,000 a year in wages and benefits (not unusual here).

Then we'll pay $100,000 a year for rent, heat, lights, administrative overhead, etc. for each classroom. (That's a total of $10 million/year for my granddaughter's school with 570 students).

OK, $100 grand to the teacher, $100 grand for overhead, where's the last $136,350 go?

My grandkids get great educations and their schools are great, but most of the schools in the district are way below national average test scores.

We are not getting our money's worth. The district headquarters is full of high buck administrator's shuffling papers.

Minnesota schools are owned and run by the "Education Minnesota" union who have a strangle hold on 
on every aspect of kid's education and our wallets.

Change can't come soon enough. But, it won't. See "EducationMinnesota" above.

Source


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

We are not getting our money's worth.

Sounds like it. Our local school district serves 4X the number of students at just over half the cost per student with half the drop out rate. But then we have about half as many schools so your extra money is probably going toward facilities.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Another problem with education, quoted from a physics forum:

I'm a high school physics teacher, but unfortunately I do not have a lot of experience with physics outside of a few courses I took in university - none of which dealt with relativity or quantum physics.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The overhead for school systems well exceeds that figure for a lot of reasons. The fed and states have so many regulations and requirements that go beyond common sense, like keeping various databases for at least 14 years and they are not archived off. Everybody from the local to federal govts have their fingers in that till, making the politics even more crazy.


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

In my humble opinion… public schools fail because they are too big and politics take over… and if you have read any other of my posts… when there are too many people they fight like rats over money, religion, and social issues. Race, parents, God, quality, funding, blah blah blah. Chicken or the egg… who started this mess?

Smaller classrooms, personal attention, and secure environment… this is what I had in my public school of 400 kids and it was great. Private school offer this and what homeschool aspires to give … but it is not the fault of "public schools" it is the parents, the funding, and the politicians fighting over ideological issues and money….and out of it all the Kids learn hate, anger, apathy, and selfishness…. who's fault it that? Some parents are religious and don;t want sex education… many kids NEED sex ed because no one else is there to do it? Bullying is NOT a value, and hard to stop in large schools. A vicious circle of pointing fingers and avoiding solutions, and fighting over crap. I don't agree with Private schools because they are class-level exclusive creating a serious and damaging cultural divide.. one that NO one can avoid … being threatened by crime, unwanted babies to care for, and stupid human mistakes that end in pain and even death of our own loved ones .. and I do not agree with home schooling because no single person can know it all, and books are inadequate without worldly reflection, and kids need socializing to be productive with other citizens and it inherently teaches that you do not have to adjust for the sake of community. Not all home schooling is bad, but it depends on the parents. The "I'll do what I want" mentality is in ALL TEENAGERS. I have no kids and will not have kids, so my opinion is rather mute… but I still must live in a world where these kids will be making decisions that affect us all. No man is an island.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Eric-
Homeschoolers who are unsocialized are far in the minority now.. When my parents started homeschooling, there was one small support group. By the time I graduated, that one group had over 200 families and 3 other groups had split off from it. Every Friday, we had 'group lessons', where many families would meet and parents would teach classes.. Everything from archery to chemistry (taught by a dad who was a chemist at Kodak). In addition to that, we had some awesome sports teams that were consistently tops among private schools in the area. We even participated in state and national tournaments. Throw in a healthy dash of Boy Scouts (my brother and I are both Eagle) and you have some very unsocialized people ^_^. Our experience wasn't unique.. it was quite the norm for our group. I do owe the success we had on the group.. My mom was an English teacher, so we needed a little support in the math department.

Anyways, if I were to be jealous of a public school, it would be yours


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

Wow.. see now that kinda of educational system sounds awesome. Thanks for the insight, Dan …and now I must go do some more research on this… awesome. I love being wrong, LOL… and I like finding out new ways people make community.


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