# Hand Plane Resto question...when is "Good Enough" Good enough?



## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

Still working on my Union hand plane. I've de-rusted everything and waxed it to keep it from rusting again.

Today, I wanted to Have a go at checking for flatness, so I took some 120 grit aluminum oxide grinding cloth and clamped it to the cast iron table of my table saw.

Following is the result of about 5 minutes on the sole and about 3 minutes on each side.




























I'm going to go at it a little bit longer, but as you can see, the sole looks pretty good except for a small area at the mouth and a narrow strip at the heel.

The sides, though, are a little rougher. They feel okay and when you put a straightedge on them, they look pretty good, but the sanding tells the true story.

At what point is it good enough? Should I keep going until all three sides are perfectly flat (I apologize if it's hard to see clearly…the lighting wasn't cooperating)?


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Looks good enough to me. In a perfect world, you want the area in front of the mouth perfectly flat but if you're <.001" that's close enough.

Give 'er a go and see how she works.


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## Sludgeguy (Jan 24, 2018)

Sides are fine. I'd work a little more to clean up the throat area but would not worry about the back. I polish down to 600 grit but l think a lot of folks stop at 320. Throw some paste wax on it an finish the restoration and you'll have a nice plane.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Good enough is in the eye of the beholder. Some want the plane to work, others want a showpiece. Only you can decide where you want to be on the continuum. For me, I like a rust free and protected user, so that means sanding to 220 on the sides and sole and at least 75% japanning. If there is less japanning than that, I'll refinish. Others do more or less and none are wrong if the plane works in the end.

For a user:

Sides are not important to be perfectly flat, unless you plan to use the plane on a shooting board. If the corrosion, is gone, you've done enough. If you want them to be shiny and smooth, you'll have more work to do.

Sole ideally needs to be co-planar at the toe, heel and front of the mouth for perfect results. Now that depends on the intended use of the plane. For smoothers, it's essential. For jointers, a bit less so and for a jack or fore plane that does rough work, not usually a major concern.

On that plane, I would work the sole some more to try and reduce the low spot in front of the mouth.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

As you grind away on each face, remember that it's important for the sides to be square to the sole. If they're not, you can't use it in operations where it rides on the side, like a shooting board.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It depends on the plane, flatness is more critical on a smoother than a jointer. If you can joint a board to your satisfaction, then it is good enough.


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## RobbieB (Oct 14, 2017)

I have read that when sanding you should have the plane assembled and the blade retracted. The sole is flexible enough to deform slightly as the lever cap locks down, flexing the sole out of true. The longer the plane the more important this effect can be.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> I have read that when sanding you should have the plane assembled and the blade retracted. The sole is flexible enough to deform slightly as the lever cap locks down, flexing the sole out of true. The longer the plane the more important this effect can be.
> 
> - RobbieB


I can verify that this is fact, having personally tested it a few times. Not always the case, each plane can be a bit different depending how various surfaces mate.

As for when to stop, it depends. The heel of that sole is fine. If it was a jack the mouth is ok, for a jointer I want the full surface of the mouth flat, since I use mine when flattening glue ups. The sides - really doesnt matter if it wont be used for shooting. I just use scotchbright to get an even finish. For shooting use, as long as the plane doesnt rock the side is fine. The sides do not have to be a perfect 90*, the skew lever will make the blade edge perp to the sole. I stop at 120 grit for using. Higher grits are for show. A little use and the sole is scratched up.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> For shooting use, as long as the plane doesnt rock the side is fine. The sides do not have to be a perfect 90*, the skew lever will make the blade edge perp to the sole.
> 
> - OSU55


There is no way you can shoot the end of a board square if the sole of the plane isn't square to the side that's riding on the shooting board. You could change the skew to account for the error in the angle between the side and sole, but that kind of defeats the purpose and would require delegating the plane to shooting only.

The idea is to have the blade parallel to the sole so it takes even shavings and then when it's turned 90º on its side, you get a perfectly square cut.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

You can decide when enough is enough, based on the plane's purpose. I personally wouldn't mess with the sides of bench planes unless they're shooters. Sides of planes are also important / should be square to the sole on shoulder planes or rabbet planes. For a jointer, the sole looks great.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> There is no way you can shoot the end of a board square if the sole of the plane isn t square to the side that s riding on the shooting board. You could change the skew to account for the error in the angle between the side and sole, but that kind of defeats the purpose and would require delegating the plane to shooting only.
> 
> The idea is to have the blade parallel to the sole so it takes even shavings and then when it s turned 90º on its side, you get a perfectly square cut.
> 
> - Rich


We will just have to agree to disagree. There are tools called squares that are used to check perp of edges. Any plane can be set at any time to provide a perp edge. A plane doesnt have to be relegated to just shooting board use after having the skew adjusted. That can be how you would do it, but others can benefit from a different perspective.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> We will just have to agree to disagree. There are tools called squares that are used to check perp of edges. Any plane can be set at any time to provide a perp edge. A plane doesnt have to be relegated to just shooting board use after having the skew adjusted. That can be how you would do it, but others can benefit from a different perspective.
> 
> - OSU55


Agreeing to disagree is for opinions. This is a fact. A plane whose side is not square to its sole will not shoot square. I know there are tools called squares and you can check that the sole is perpendicular to the shooting board. Guess what? If it is square that means the side is square and the whole argument is moot.

Your skew argument doesn't hold water either. That's not an opinion - it's a fact. If the skew is adjusted correctly, it takes even shavings. I never said a plane needed to be a shoot only plane if it's square.

Anyway, it's time to stop beating this dead horse. You have a right to be wrong, and I support that.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Sorry Rich but OSU55 wins this one. The lateral adjust lever skews the angle of the cutting edge. So, if your side is at 89 degrees to the sole of the plane and you adjust the lateral to make the cutting edge at 1 degree to the sole, you end up with the iron at a 90 degree angle to the side of the plane.

As to which way is the better approach, that's up to the user.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Sorry Rich but OSU55 wins this one. The lateral adjust lever skews the angle of the cutting edge. So, if your side is at 89 degrees to the sole of the plane and you adjust the lateral to make the cutting edge at 1 degree to the sole, you end up with the iron at a 90 degree angle to the side of the plane.
> 
> As to which way is the better approach, that s up to the user.
> 
> - HokieKen


Yes, I said that back in my post #8, but if you do that, then the blade is skewed and if you try to use it to plane, it will take uneven shavings. That was my point about the plane being dedicated to shooting. Of course you can adjust the blade skew back and forth between planing and shooting, but that's kind of dumb. Why not have a plane that's square and be able to use it either way without screwing around?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Sorry Rich but OSU55 wins this one. The lateral adjust lever skews the angle of the cutting edge. So, if your side is at 89 degrees to the sole of the plane and you adjust the lateral to make the cutting edge at 1 degree to the sole, you end up with the iron at a 90 degree angle to the side of the plane.
> 
> As to which way is the better approach, that s up to the user.
> 
> - HokieKen


Yes, I said that back in my post #8, but if you do that, then the blade is skewed and if you try to use it to plane, it will take uneven shavings. That was my point about the plane being dedicated to shooting. Of course you can adjust the blade skew back and forth between planing and shooting, but that s kind of dumb. Why not have a plane that's square and be able to use it either way without screwing around?

That's the point of shooting. You don't have to be screwing around with squares and adjustments. You've got a plane body that's machined square and if you adjust the blade to take even shavings, it's guaranteed to cut square on a shooting board. If you go sanding away freehand, that goes away.

- Rich


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## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

Thank you all very much for your help. Sometimes, being a noob, I feel like I might ask too many questions…so I certainly appreciate all y'all's patience.

Regarding squaring the sides to the bottom, I've been checking periodically and everything looks a-ok. In any case, I got rid of the low spot in front of the mouth and left it at that and I didn't work on the sides anymore after posting the pics.

Since I'm new to the world of hand planes, using a shooting board is far enough in the future for me that, when I'm ready to do that, I'll get a good, heavy, high quality low angle plane for that.

Now, all that's left is touching up the japanning (which is actually in surprisingly good shape, considering what the plane looked like when I got it) and cleaning off any residual surface corrosion with some extremely fine grit cloth r scouring pad. Then I'll make new wood bits for it, and we're good to go.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

10-4 Rich. My misunderstanding. FWIW, I'm in agreement that if you're going to use a plane for both purposes that it makes sense to square the side.



> Thank you all very much for your help. Sometimes, being a noob, I feel like I might ask too many questions…so I certainly appreciate all y all s patience.
> ...
> 
> - CRAIGCLICK


If you don't know the answer, then it's a question that needs asking ;-) You'll find lots of people here love to share their knowledge and experience.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> 10-4 Rich. My misunderstanding. FWIW, I m in agreement that if you re going to use a plane for both purposes that it makes sense to square the side.
> 
> - HokieKen


No worry. My wording along the way could have been a little clearer.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Thank you all very much for your help. Sometimes, being a noob, I feel like I might ask too many questions…so I certainly appreciate all y all s patience.
> 
> - CRAIGCLICK


I think you're asking good questions. No need to hold back.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

As with all internet search, trust and verify. You've got some good info in this thread, and some not so good info.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> There is no way you can shoot the end of a board square if the sole of the plane isn t square to the side that s riding on the shooting board. You could change the skew to account for the error in the angle between the side and sole, but that kind of defeats the purpose and would require delegating the plane to shooting only.
> 
> - Rich





> Agreeing to disagree is for opinions. This is a fact. A plane whose side is not square to its sole will not shoot square. I know there are tools called squares and you can check that the sole is perpendicular to the shooting board. Guess what? If it is square that means the side is square and the whole argument is moot.
> 
> Your skew argument doesn t hold water either. That s not an opinion - it s a fact. If the skew is adjusted correctly, it takes even shavings. I never said a plane needed to be a shoot only plane if it s square.
> 
> ...


Then your facts are wrong, plain and simple. You actually contradict yourself in the 1st quote. My original statement stands as fact:



> For shooting use, as long as the plane doesnt rock the side is fine. The sides do not have to be a perfect 90*, the skew lever will make the blade edge perp to the sole.
> 
> - OSU55


Though the last word should be "side" and not "sole".



> Sorry Rich but OSU55 wins this one. The lateral adjust lever skews the angle of the cutting edge. So, if your side is at 89 degrees to the sole of the plane and you adjust the lateral to make the cutting edge at 1 degree to the sole, you end up with the iron at a 90 degree angle to the side of the plane.
> 
> As to which way is the better approach, that s up to the user.
> 
> ...


You then contradict yourself again, saying the blade can be skewed to shoot, but then effort has to be expended to make the blade edge parallel to the sole for face work - oh the pain of pushing that lever! Take a chill pill Rich.

Just so a noobie reading this doesn't get incorrect info, the side and sole do not have to be 90.000° for the plane to be used as a shooter. Skewing the blade will correct for minor misalignment. The skew lever is also use in case the blade edge is not perfectly 90° to the side, and is not placed on the frog perfectly, etc. etc.

Yes, a plane with perfectly perpendicular sides vs sole is best, but don't fret if your refurbed plane isn't perfect, and don't spend a bunch of time trying to make it perfect.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

OSU55, I got you. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions. When we got to the BOTTOM of the disagreement, we found out Rich's OPINION was that it makes more sense to have a plane with sides that are square to the sole. Doesn't matter as the OP doesn't plan on using this on a shooting board.

I would suggest getting it where you want it. Personally, I like to make sure the heel, toe and all around the mouth are flat and co-planer, regardless of what type of plane I am using. It's a personal thing though and isn't necessary for jacks and sometimes for jointers. Just like I don't like any kind of hard finish for totes and knobs. I just like BLO and maybe some wax. Feels better… to me. That's the point. Do what you like.

Good luck with your resto!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Take a chill pill Rich.


Wow. For a someone I thought was a good guy and respected, you sure turned out to be anything but.

I'll stand by my original statement too:



> You have a right to be wrong, and I support that.


The whole idea behind shooting is that the plane is dead square. If you think you can tinker around with the skew on a blade that's protruding a few thousandths of an inch and get it perfect, go for it. I have better ways to spend my time. I can't imagine any real woodworker who would want to waste their time like that, but you do. That tells me a lot.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

By the way, what are you doing about the japanning? I am currently restoring a Type 11 #7 Stanley jointer and the japanning was so bad I sand blasted it off and applied three coats of Rustoleum satin black. Just curious on what you plane to do.

Thanks again!


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## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

> By the way, what are you doing about the japanning? I am currently restoring a Type 11 #7 Stanley jointer and the japanning was so bad I sand blasted it off and applied three coats of Rustoleum satin black. Just curious on what you plane to do.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> - Dwain


Well, the japanning on my plane is in relatively good shape…it probably has a good 80-85% of the original japanning. I was going to take some mineral spirits or similar stuff to the base spots to remove any residual oil or wax and just use brush-type automotive touch-up paint and see how that looks. Of course, if anyone has done that with horrible results…I'd love to know.

Here's a pic.









Incidentally…does anyone know the size and thread count of the lever cap screw on this plane? I need to get a tap and die to chase the threads on both.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Incidentally…does anyone know the size and thread count of the lever cap screw on this plane? I need to get a tap and die to chase the threads on both.
> 
> - CRAIGCLICK


9/32-24… not a common thread size.


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## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

> Incidentally…does anyone know the size and thread count of the lever cap screw on this plane? I need to get a tap and die to chase the threads on both.
> 
> - CRAIGCLICK
> 
> ...


Thank you. I figured it was a 24…but none of my existing taps corresponded to the diameter.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

I am working on a 1942 Sargent 418, which is equivalent t ok a Stanley No 6 right now. Have defrosted it, but I'm mainly going to leave it there. I had to grind the blade to get rid of some pitting and I wanted to put a heavy camber on so I can use this for roughing. Aside from that, the only reason I will lap the sole is to get some tarnish off, and only that because it seems to want to discolor the wood as it passes across.

Brian


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

I am sure these handplanes were pretty flat when new around 100yrs ago. Since they had to make them light enough for practical use, if the soles were 5/8" thick they would have stayed flatter from internal stress when they were cast.
Flattening the sole using sand paper on a flat surface is not lapping or even close-It is still sanding..

If you can get the sole of a plane better the .002" error overall, that's good. The problem is when sanding is, the paper stretches and rides up.
The bad areas will be along the edges where they roll up, and also the mouth.

We use lapping in the hydraulics machine shop on valve plates in hydrostatic transmissions, and at times on interfaces on the cast iron case. We have variious machines such as the Crane lappmaster.

A good field trick when the proper machines are not available, or to small… is to use a spray gasket dressing on the back of wet/dry paper, then attatch them to a thick glass or preferaby granite plate-giving the sheets about 1/8" space between them….use plenty of water.

It would be ideal if, enough sheets of paper are laid out, to be able to rotate the part at every 1/4 turn, and make a figuer 8 motion…..a Sharpy pen is handy to mark the sole to see the low spots.
I would go with 200 grit, should be able to hold .001" with some care.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> Wow. For a someone I thought was a good guy and respected, you sure turned out to be anything but.
> 
> - Rich


We finally agree on something! I did not realize you would not allow fact to get in the way of opinion but the force to be right is strong with you.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

St James bay tools may have some taps I think?


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

The best place I've found for oddball tap is Victornet.com


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## texrjoe (May 5, 2018)

I just joined lumberjocks today and found this site very interesting. I have 2 old planes I bought at a garage sale- one is an old Stanley, rusted pretty bad and the other is a 18" wooden box plane. I am going to do some research on them before I start to reclaim them and so I certainly have enjoyed reading all of these comments. Thank you


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

Joe this might help you tune them up.. I like to use Evaporust to get the rust off, and scotchbright and steel wool.


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## CRAIGCLICK (Mar 14, 2018)

> I just joined lumberjocks today and found this site very interesting. I have 2 old planes I bought at a garage sale- one is an old Stanley, rusted pretty bad and the other is a 18" wooden box plane. I am going to do some research on them before I start to reclaim them and so I certainly have enjoyed reading all of these comments. Thank you
> 
> - texrjoe


I used the electrolysis nethod to derust mine. It worked very well.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

I've used both methods, electrolysis and Evaporust. Seems like I remember something about electrolysis leaving the metal grey-ish. Evaporust hasn't done that. Both methods work quite well for getting rid of rust. 
Mike


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

http://www.timetestedtools.net/2016/02/27/hand-plane-restoration-by-the-no-soak-method/


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Sort like Don W. I've been using a brass wire wheel on my grinder. It makes very quick work of rust removal. Leaves no residue or any other mess.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I usually wire wheel it the figure it out from there. For most I leave the patina.


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