# Health Insurance



## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

I watched a video called 'Sicko' yesterday. It's a documentary about the American health system done by a US resident that had health issues. The picture he painted about the health system was pretty bleak. People being turned away & refused treatment because they had no insurance cover & insurance companies going to great lengths to discredit claims.
Is this a true situation or is it greatly exaggerated?. Has anyone seen this Doco.?


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

I have worked in Healthcare for 25 years. It is both true and exaggerated.

1. Yes, Health insurance companies go to lengths to keep from paying claims.

2. Yes people get turned away because they can't pay. Then they get really sick and ultimately get treated. The treatment isn't free, the institution passes the cost on to people who can pay.

3. People are driven into poverty by tragic illnesses. My father in law was a (very) small business owner. He could not afford health insurance. His wife caught pneumonia and ultimately died. He was left with a $200,000 hospital bill for a 4 week stay in an intensive care ward. His only choice was bankruptcy.

Is it as bad as the movie portrays? Probably not. But we could do better.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Scott is right, Grumpy. We have major problems, but probably not so bad as that movie shows.

The problem as I see it is that insurance has gotten so expensive that many working people can't or won't pay for it. Then when they get injured or seriously ill, they do end up getting treatment, and that makes the price go up for those who *are* paying.

As much as I distrust the government to manage anything properly, IMO we need a system where every working person pays in through an automatic deduction from their pay, just like social security. If everyone payed into the system, there would be enough to cover everyone's care.


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

Right now I pay 25 percent of my income for health insurance. I need to because of my health problems. 4 weeks ago I had my 5th heart procedure. My meds are outrageous in cost, but ins covers most with co-pays. 
I am one of the lucky ones, because a lot of my costs are covered. My last procedure, 28 hours in the hospital, for one stent, 11,000 dollars. Thats without costs from 2 specialists that have not come in yet.
Could our system be better, absolutely. Is it going to get there? Not with the politicians in this country.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks Chico & Charlie. We have a system down here that a lot of people complain about but at least if you are really sick ithe hospital will cost you nothing but you still pay your local GP or dentist. It does come out of everybody's income tax though. The trick is to go in as a public patient if you can & the cost is nil. 
If you want non essential treatment like cosmetic surgery or dental work you have to pay for it. If you want to choose the best specialist yourself for a heart operation or get in front of the waiting list you pay for it.
My wife & I have private health insurance to avoid the risks of not being treated ASAP. I am not denigrating the public health system over here but like anywhere if you want quick service you pay for it.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Jim, sorry to hear your plight. 25% of your income, that really sucks.


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## Praki (Jun 17, 2007)

Yeah, I saw that documentary. Michael Moore exaggerates to draw attention which makes it easy for the skeptical to dismiss it. It is also hard for people to really understand where the health system in our country really stands. I have heard, anecdote of course, of better and broader coverage in European countries. But, I have seen quite a few people put up with significant health problems for lack of coverage.

We definitely need improvements in healthcare. People going bankrupt for health care shouldn't be happening in the richest country in the world.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

$1253.00 a month. No Dentist. No Eye Coverage. On a retired income.

Lew


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Praki & Lew, looks like we all have some issues with health systems.


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## lazyfiremaninTN (Jul 30, 2007)

Working Pre-Hospital and having worked in the E.R. and a Doctor's office, I can say that the health care system is most definately broken. I have seen people think that the E.R. is used for primary care and the Primary Care Doctors send patients to the E.R. for things that they just don't want to deal with.

Another reason that people use the E.R. for primary care is that there is a law that says that any person that comes to the E.R. is subject to a medical screening and treatment for life threating emergencies, regaurdless of race, religion, creed, color, or ability to pay.

Peoples opions of what EMS is for is so screwed up its sad. I can share stories that will make you laugh and cry, like the time that I was called out at 2 am for "my left testicle is bigger than my right", when asked how long this had been going on and he said 3-4 months. I asked how much he had to drink and he said about a case.

I was called out for a "tick bite" and when we got there I found out the tick bite was 2 weeks old and he thought he has "Q fever". I asked where he had heard of "Q" fever and he said that he read it in a book. I asked him if he had been to Africa lately, and he advised me that he had never been out of the state (he was in his 40's). He was rather shocked to learn that "Q" fever is an Africa bush disease…..by the way he had about a 12 pack to drink if not more.

These are just 2 stories of the hundreds if not thousands that are taking place everyday in the U.S. health care system.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Interesting stories Adrian. Never a dull moment in your job.


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

Adrian hit the nail on the head when he said "people use the E.R. for primary care is that there is a law that says that any person that comes to the E.R. is subject to a medical screening and treatment for life threating emergencies, regaurdless of race, religion, creed, color, or ability to pay". Physicians offices often send to the E.R. not only because they just don't want to deal with it, they send them because the person has no insurance and can't afford to pay for the treatment. So people end up in the Emergency room simply because it ends up being their only choice.


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## Radish (Apr 11, 2007)

I think the system is as Adrian said…broken. Docs having to add unnecessary tests so that visits are covered under 'Diagnostic Related Groupings", insurance company nurses and bean counters practicing medicine in pre-certifying hospitalization or denying same before a M.D. has even seen the patient. Cures that take place miraculously on the day your insurance for that visit run out. New mothers and babies discharged before either are ready to assume activities of daily living. Ninety percent of vital signs and bedside care handled by unlicensed health care workers (two weeks of medical terminology classes and knowing which end to stick the thermometer in does not give a person the tools to provide safe or adequate care). It's a mess. I don't know what the answer is, but it does seem a shame that the US, one of the world's richest nations, doesn't have better provisions for the care of it's citizens or it's soldiers.

Micheal Moore does play loose with some of the facts and over-dramatizes, but if it shines a light and causes discussion to ensue then I think he has done his job.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

Hi all,

As has been said, it is very expensive to have, and inconvenient to use.

But in spite of that, with the cost of a medical treatment being what it is, it's almost a necessity to put up with it if you can afford it.

I almost think of it as a monthly payment plan, for the pleasure of getting sick anytime I want.

Not having studied the situation I don't have any answers on how to fix it, but I do know if the government gets involved, we're screwed.

Lee


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

The high cost of health care can be summed up in two words- Government; Lawyers


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

I seen the movie and it had(has) me ready to jump the pond. You don't want to be sick in the US. Hopefully our next president fixes the system. If you haven't seen the movie it should be must see. The part that got me is everyone in the movie had insurance. very sad.

The poorest person in France will love longer then the richest in the US on average.

"Not having studied the situation I don't have any answers on how to fix it, but I do know if the government gets involved, we're screwed."

I'm not sure. It is working overseas. The doctors actually get bonuses on how healthy there patients are. They get bonuses for lowering blood pressure and getting you to stop smoking to mention a few. The doctors don't make as much but they are not hurting either. Plus they actually care how you feel. The system we have now is so bad I see no other option. The problem is taxes would go up and no one is every cool with that. I can understand your feelings to. That is why we have looked at moving overseas. This country won't fix the problem if it means more taxes. Seems crazy that people would rather die at a younger age then pay more taxes. But when our government waste so much of our money it is hard to give them more to play with.


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

Calling 'Sicko' a documentary is like calling a butcher a master carpenter. Sure they both cut things but .. I'll stop there. 
How about calling it a doc-U-drama


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

If our government leaders had to have the same types of insurance as the people, you would see fast and furious changes being made. The problem being is that our leaders vote for their health care and get the best coverage that the ciitizens can afford. Our leaders pay nothing towards their health care. 
Politicians= foxes in charge of the hen house.


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## bhack (Mar 19, 2008)

Please keep the goverment out it. Please no involuntary contribution. It will go to the General Fund and be a mess like Social Security.

Seems like all programs run by the government is full of fraud. The Free Market may be an answer. I don't know. Just keep congress out of it. Most of them are lawyers not economist.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

It seems like in this country, when things get real bad, our only salvation is the government.

I don't think you'll ever see those * millionaire insurance executives *give up their wealth,

& share it with us poor underlings.

The American Medical association fought real hard against Medicare,

but you don't see too many poor Doctors, because of it.

Although I think most doctors deserve every penny they earn.

What would our Senior citizens be doing now, without Medicare?

This problem has been dragging our country down for many years now.

*If not our Government, which is supposed to be us!

Who else is going to help?*


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

Ben Franklin said that we need a revolution every 200 years, because all governments become stale and corrupt after 200 years.

How long has it been?


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

*I think our present society is smart enough to fix our problems.

We just have to elect someone who really cares about us, & not themselves.*


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

...my mom broke her leg it cost us $15,000.00 for one hours work before she even showed up at the hospital. That is just the EMTs. Whom I'm sure did not get more than $25.00 an hour. The system is stale and corrupt!!!!


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

I'm a nurse and I work for a medium sized, small city, "privately owned' hospital. We refuse no one. Even the guy I just discharged who came in dehydrated and covered with lice. No one.

The biggest problem in our healthcare system today is the insurance companies. They make the rules and if you don't follow them to the letter, they won't pay. They decide what meds you'll take…Oh! You thought it was the doctors job to prescribe meds??? The doctors get their prescriptions over-ridden daily by the insurance companies! "I want Lunesta"...but *Nooo! You haven't tried Sonata yet!* "But Sonata is weak crap…I want Lunesta". *NOOOO! You have to try Ambein first!* "But, I don't want Ambein…It's a narcotic". *Well then you'll have to pay for the Lunesta yourself!*

Lunesta and Ambein cost the same. One's a narcotic, the other isn't. Ambein when mixed with painkillers causes people to do weird stuff…like go for a midnite drive in the nude!

Insurance companies get a cut of the meds they allow. Mine doesn't allow Lunesta. Oh and when I asked to "talk with those that make the decisions" they said *NOOOO! WE CAN'T ALLOW THAT!*

It's BS. I'm just a little woodworker. All I can do is vote and watch what happens.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Dadoo, those decision-makers might have medical degrees in some cases, but they are still just *bean counters*.

I know an older lady who recently became concerned with belly swelling. A standard exam and blood workup showed nothing, so her doctor wanted an MRI. The insurance company refused to pay. Luckily she could affort to foot the bill on her own, and it turned out to be lymphoma!


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Whew, I think I started something here Jocks. 
Dadoo, that is incredible that insurance companies decide on the medication. 
Maybe a lumberjock should stand for President & fix the health system. Someone like Odie. LOL
So many of you work in the industry & see the problems. It must be frustrating that you can't do anything about it.
Thanks for filling in the gaps. Like a lot of you I thought the doco was over the top but as you point out there are a lot of truths in it.


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## Sir_Robert (Feb 17, 2008)

It's expensive (that's due to greed and capitalism gone amuck) but still better than Canada with their socialized medicine. If you're really sick in Canada, you're better off coming to the US to have surgery and paying out of pocket. Otherwise, you get in line for tests, you then get in line for doctors and surgery schedules, then you're automatically put in line for the undertaker because you're dead before you're treated.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

We have socialized medicine here in CA, it's called County Hospitals, they are horrible, illegals and poor people need somewhere to go, I would rather take my chances on a witch DR than go to one Really!
I don't like to pay but would rather pay than go to one of those places.

PS. I am afraid Josh is right!!


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

Barb was at our doctor on Tuesday, & he showed her a letter from our insurance co.

doctor that had viewed her medical records, but has never seen her in person.

He told our doctor that she should change one of her medications to a cheaper one ,

& also told him she should take this one medication,

every other day instead of once a day.

Our doctor scoffed at it, & said he'll keep on

doing what has been working for her.

*I thought I had a pretty good plan, up until last Tuesday*


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Dick , You have a good DR, some would just go along!
Always know what med you are taking and why, and ALWAYS check with a GOOD Pharmacist if you are taking more than one, My mother almost died from drug reactions from 3 different DR's.
A good Pharmacist knows alot more about medications than most DR's, 
Dr's have Pharmicutical Co's pushing drugs and giving free samples scratching at there doors every day.


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## Miket (Jan 27, 2008)

Let's hear from some one from the UK and Canada where they have "free healthcare".

The movie Sicko picks and chooses extreems to get his pre-concieved notions across ignoring all else.

Moore does that with every film he has made. EVERY single one is a distortion of the facts.

Nothing is perfect and it needs a lot of work.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help" Scares me more than anything. Universal health care
by the government is a joke. You want someone as clueless as the government rationing out health care?


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Like I said, I really hate the thought of a government run system. But I'm also tired of this crazy system we've got now where some of us pay more because others can't or don't want to pay anything. I don't have a problem with helping out the poor, but what kills me is the working people who pay 0% of their income for health care, yet still get emergency care when they need it because the law says they can't be turned away. I have an ex- sister-in-law who made six figures selling real estate one year, but had no health insurance because she thought she'd rather take her chances.

I like the freedom of privatized health care, but anyone who is not covered by private insurance should be subject to a mandatory withholding tax to pay for that emergency coverage the law mandates.


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## daveintexas (Oct 15, 2007)

I have been shopping for insurance for my wife and I and its not cheap. But, as was said earlier, you cant afford to be without it.
For those of you who want the government to manage our health care, let me tell you this little story.
My wife manages a small coffee shop cafe, there is a waitress there that has three children all from different men. The oldest got sick and she took him to the ER, the nurse/admitter there asked if she had insurance, the waitress said no. The nurse asked if the child was of mexican decent? She said no, but the youngest of her three, his father is spanish, the nurse said ok, we will put all three children on a government plan and you wont have to pay anything for their care. Now this is the same waitress that because of "Earned Income Credit", she gets back more money on her tax return, then she payed in. (Not including the so called stimulis check they sent out).AND has the nerve to brag to everyone about her new tattoo that she got with her tax money. So do you really want the government totally incharge of the heath care system ???

Off of my soap box now.


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

"they come to the USA for the best medical care in the world."

The states ranked 37th according to the World health Organization.

"but I gladly pay five hundred and seventy nine dollars a month for health care considering the alternatives."

570×12 months = 6948×50 years= $347,400

That is a lot of money to pay out over 50 years.

You are actually paying more a month for health insurance then I pay for my house.


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay, obviously I've been away too long. I thought this was a *WOODWORKING *website. Geez! But, since the string is predicated on one of my favorite [wink-wink] docudrama queen's films, I guess I've two pennies to throw down too.

First, as has been mentioned, Mr. Moore is NOT a documentarian, he is an unabashed *PROVOCATEUR*! He has more in common with Joseph Goebbels than say Ken Burns who is a *genuine *documentarian. That being cleared up, let's move along. The *REAL *bad guys in all of this are the insurance companies [easy answer], the healthcare system of for-profit hospitals and the American worker him/herself. That's right folks, "We have met the enemy and they are us!"

The insurance industry screwed and tattoed us all years ago by "divide and conquer" tactics. Insurance is regulated on a state by state basis. This is an advantage for the insurance industry *NOT *the states. The industry understood a long time ago that for them to maintain one of the most impressive profit models in history that if ever they had to take-it-on-the-nose in some states they could easily make up the difference on the rest. Therefore we do not *NEED *the govt to take care of us in any other way than to take on the insurance industry and regulate them at the *FEDERAL *level. This however will *NOT *take place as the insurance industry *IS *the most powerful lobby in D.C. All others are amateurs when compared to them.

For-Profit hospitals *should *be ILLEGAL! It's a moral conundrum and it shouldn't be. No one should profit off the suffering of others. This is a fundamental aspect that again should be dealt with and will most likely *NEVER *change as their lobby isn't likely to go along with it either.

Now, the "they are us" statement means this. We Americans have become a "what about us" society that is enamored with entitlements and other socialized govt programs. We take pride in our individualism yet at the same time we keep grumbling for more! A big part of the problem with the system as it stands today is that the govt is already dispensing *HALF *of all healthcare dollars spent in the U.S. Medicare and Medicaid are the culprits and *ANYONE *who wants socialized medicine in this country needs to triangulate all of this info before signing away their right to choose. There are more holes in these two delivery systems than any amount of duct tape and plumber's putty can ever plug thanks to a cumbersome system of codification and redundancies put in place to prevent fraud. If you think the govt could do a better job then please by all means check the record of the VA or any other govt run hospital before you decide. i doubt ANY of you'll take what you find and say to yourself, "Yepper, that's for me, break me off a piece of that!" I don't think so.

Now, what qualifications does jcees have to make such a tirade? I hold an insurance license [not active], my wife is a veteran healthcare professional and I have a brother with many lifelong health problems that lives with us. I am 51 years old and I pay $325 per month for 100% coverage past my deductible [yes it's high] and no one in my immediate family has ever received substandard healthcare because *I* won't allow it! I have personally fired two doctors in my life and won't hesitate to do it again if I believe that I am in *ANY *way getting short sheeted with regards to me or my family's health. The bottom line in this is that *EVERYONE *has to be their own best advocate. Your health is ultimately *YOUR *responsibility.

Now I've just hit the high spots, there are more and deeper issues with all three of the problem areas I defined but this response has already gotten out of hand. It's 5am and I have to wake up in few minutes to make the coffee and get ready for work. [dang it]

Granted, the system needs fixing *BUT *socialized medicine in this country will only squish the middle class harder as we are the ones that foot the bill for everything already. The poor have it made [except for being poor] in this country and the rich… well… Where do you think Michael Moore's net worth puts him? Just a thought.

always,
J.C.

P.S. Don't get me started on the welfare system.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*Sorry, I'm not buying into yet ANOTHER government entitlement program* that will bankrupt the next generation, as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security have done to New York State. Yet another step towards socialism.

If you don't earn a check, we'll give you one.
If you don't have a home, we'll subsidize one.
If you didn't plan for your retirement income, we'll give you one.
If you chose to have babies out of wedlock, stay home, we'll give you more money for each one you have.
If you lose your job, we'll send you a check.
If you bought a bigger house than you could have possibly afforded, and your lending bank collapses, we'll rescue you.

On, and on and on.

More and more and more social programs that serve only to keep people dependent on the government - and not on them selves.

General Motors pays out over a *billion* dollars a year - for the healthcare of no longer productive employees. Stupid on their part. They should have never promised people that.

Is healthcare wildly expensive? Oh yes, it is - but I really don't want the government (the rest of us) paying even more for the healthcare of others. Sorry.


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## RobH2 (May 11, 2008)

In response to Miket who asked for a Canadian opinion… I did see the movie and it made me appreciate our healthcare more. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "free" however. As far as I understand we pay a heck of a lot more taxes here in Canada than do those in the States. So in the back of my mind I'm aware of the fact that I'm forking out cash for everyone that doesn't take care of themselves and uses the system unnecessarilly. I think we should have a hybrid system that makes people who smoke, for example, pay for any related illnesses which they need treatment for.


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## toyguy (Nov 23, 2007)

Access to health care is a *right *for everyone, not just the rich.

Yes up here in Canada there is some issues. The ER has become a place where people go instead of the family Dr., mainly because of a doctor shortage. (a lot of the doctors trained here go south for the big bucks)
Yes there is sometimes waits, but nothing like you guys in the US seem to think. If you need it right away, you will get it. Need out weighs first to come…...

Up here in the great white north, we do pay a lot more taxes than our southern friends. That is health care related. The system is not perfect, but I would not want to be with-out it. Are we socialist? Maybe we are. But as I see it, health care is a right to everyone. Not just someone that can afford it. Dealing with insurance companies scares the crap out of me.

I don't think anyone takes Michael Moore to serious,... in any of his movies….... but there is always some basis of fact.


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## BigCM (Mar 13, 2008)

Skimming through this thread, I feel very lucky to live in Canada. I have not had much experience with health care, but I have had a major operation, along with regular check-ups, and it is/was covered by the goverment/taxes. I would hate to think where I would(n't?) be right now without the system. Yes, dental and GP aren't covered by the goverment/taxes, but insurance is $2/day for both.

The reality is there are probably some restrictions, costs, downfalls etc. but in my rosy teenage world I don't know/care about them. Yet.


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

"Is healthcare wildly expensive? Oh yes, it is - but I really don't want the government (the rest of us) paying even more for the healthcare of others. Sorry."

Are you sure you would end up paying more? There is two groups to look at here. There is those with no insurance and free insurance who pay nothing, and there is a group of people that pay for insurance. The second group is already covering for the other group. To me the question is who do you want charging you? I would rather take my chances on something different then the current setup. It may fail, but would it be no worse then what we have now. The stats don't lie. We are not very healthy as a group.


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## ChicoWoodnut (Dec 15, 2007)

I for one am glad that we don't live in a society where you could get sick and die because you can't afford to pay for Healthcare. I would like to keep it that way too. The only way I can think of to do that is to have everyone share in the cost.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

...but we do live in a society where you can get sick and die because you can't affort health care.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

It seems kind of foolish that when people get* really *sick, and the care gets *really* expensive, they can get it. But people with no insurance can rarely get good routine care and health maintenance that would have prevented the big expense later.

It's like telling people, "Well, if you can't afford regular oil changes for your car, you'll just have to do without. But don't worry…if you engine blows up we'll pay for the total overhaul."


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Let's do the math

We have over 4 Million illegals here in California. This does not include their illegal anchor babies, which adds hundreds of thousands more to the total. We have had over 85 emergency rooms close in the past 12 years because of these invaders. With the closing of so many emergency rooms and the addition of more illegals entering our state we have even more pressure put on the rest of the emergency rooms. As time goes on, we will see a dramatic rise in the number of emergency room closures and the eventual failure of our health system. This state spends and extreme amount of TAX dollars on these and other socialist programs to ensure that the Illegals get treated for anything and everything. We have a huge deficit ( over 18 Billion and rising ). What is the mantra from our great legislature? Let's just raise the taxes higher. Granted, this is just one of the major problems with the rising cost of health care in this country, but it is one of that has a simple solution. Force the illegals to leave. It is very Simple to understand why the health and other systems are broken with these outrageous numbers of illegals. 
The drug companies are able to extend their patents for many more years on their most expensive drugs and this adds a tremendous amount to the high cost of drugs. Also, if our universities and colleges are helping in the study of new drugs, we MUST have huge reductions in the price of those particular drugs because tax dollars were used to research and develop them. 
Lawyers. What can I say. John Edwards is despised by the people from his own state because of the costs put on the backs of the people from his lawsuits against the medical profession. He made his fortune this way. 
One more important reason is that, here in California, the great legislature passed a law many years ago forcing all health insurers accept HIV positive people. That is a major drain on the system.
Enough for now. I think you get the drift. 
Just my 2 cts worth. With inflation I should say 5 cts.


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Dennis, you are correct, people do indeed die but not because they can't afford it. In this country it's more likely that the person won't seek help before it's too late. Too many folks of meager or no means are easily intimidated out of asking the proper questions. They just plain give up before finding a healthcare provider that will take them. But people die needlessly in EVERY healthcare system. And it is a direct result of human activity. Wherever two or more are gathered, there will be a committee meeting the second Thursday of every month at the nearest IHOP. If it were only that easy.

So shall we dance a little closer to the welfare state? Would you make us all servants to a different and more sinister machine? Would your share in the benefits be more than offset by the amount you are forced to pay? What kind of doctors will we engender with that sort of system? Not everyone in a lab coat is altruistic. Would the state foster innovation? Check out how your govt is doing in other areas before you give them anything else to muck up.

I believe that the essential question is, HOW do we proceed? Do we adopt a Euro-socialist model and thereby abdicate our personal responsibility for the comfort and assurances of the state? Do we DEMAND reforms? Regulate insurance companies? Nationalize drug companies? Amputate ambulance chasers? Garrote greedy stockholders? Set term limits for *ALL *offices of govt? Exile Smokers? How do we affect positive outcomes for the illiterate, the illegal immigrant with no command of English? How much are we willing to fork over of our hard earned $$$ every week regardless of whether we want to or not?

Marx my words, the socialist model will punish as many as it helps. Think not? Check the VA's peacetime record. That's when things deteriorate. NEVER during wartime. Check with a wounded vet two years after peace ensues. See how his benefits are holding up before you toss the ballast out with the bilge.

always,
J.C.


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

JC here is what intimidates me. I walk into a doctors office and it cost me $175.00 for 10 minutes. This is just to talk to a nurse. That is $1050.00 an hour. This is a nonprofit hospital. I'm a sick guy with a sick family. To get insurance I'd have to pay more that I make a month. (Heart Condition) So I kinda take this personal. I hear all the socialist/capitalist republican/democratic finger pointing and I just tend to think this is part of the problem. When I watch my wife suffer because I can't afford the medication I get very pissed off. I really don't care what you think about socialism THIS SYSTEM HERE IS BROKEN AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT IT!


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I haven't read all of the discussions posted here but I'll just add my 2cents 
Although our healthcare system needs a few tweaks here and there (some of them bigger than others) overall I am so glad that we have what we have. 
I don't seek medical help very often but when I need it, it is there and I won't be broke the rest of my life because of an illness.

I do believe that people (in our western society) need to look at how they use the health care. People going for help because of sniffles really cause trouble in so many ways. We take the care for granted and thus abuse it. 
The medical people also need to look at how they use it. 
My uncle, who is 86 years old is in the hospital for something and while in there they've ran a bundle of tests to see if he has osteoporosis. Um.. he's 86. He already needs a walker. Do we really need to spend all that $$$ on these tests?

Anyway…. health care: everyone deserves health care. Everyone. 
And just because you "deserve" it doesn't mean you should abuse it. We need to start "toughing up" a bit and letting our body do some work on its own before we seek intervention.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

All I have to say is Live better work union!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As to all others that just want to kick the poor into the gutter, well don't cry when they are crawing into your bedroom window at night!!!!!!!!
I am sorry but I HAVE COMPASSION for my fellow man, whatever race religon or AGI !!
MsDebbieP "*everyone deserves health care"* YES they do!!!, We have enough problems on this planet, enough to worry about, with a little comon sense we could at least eliminate that one.
O & B 08.


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## herc (Jul 14, 2008)

The US health care system is the worst there is…that is, except for all the rest. We are not a socialist country and able bodied people should work to earn money to purchase goods and services including insurance.

Can you think of one example of government services that are provided efficiently and economically?

Me either.

Denny bell

http://www.bellforestproducts.com/


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## CelticDreamer (May 24, 2008)

Personally, I think the lawyers are to blame. Your doctor made a mistake? Well, we'll just sue him/her into oblivion, and when we're finished with them, we'll take on the hospital, the insurance company and anybody else that gets in our cross-hairs. Yes, accidents happen and the patient should be taken care of, but not for the millions that the lawyers are asking for. How many doctors have we lost due to the high cost of malpractice insurance? Medical treatment is a crapshoot - has been since the beginning of time - so learn to deal with it. People get sick and die, it's mother nature's way of controlling the population.


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## JimKing201 (Aug 18, 2008)

I agree with pashley…......he gave some of the best examples. 
With those bits of information you can make up your own mind on whats wrong.

When the health industry can charge for a one or two *hour* visit what takes me *months*, or over a *year* to earn, THAT is the problem. I recently had minor surgery and it figured out that the procedure cost ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNRED FIFTY TWO times more than what I make. Perspective….. multiply your yearly wages times that amout and see what you come up with! Is their time really worth that much???
And its all legal!!!

Assume for a minute that insurance is totally out of the picture. Now look at what your medical bills would be. Who could afford it??

I get a little excited that I have to work and pay for my medical expenses, and for others expenses who have never been gainfully employed in their life. And NO, this is not an exception either as some of you may think. One of the worst people I know has *never* worked, has 4 children from 3 fathers, one died from sids(both those parents are convicted drug users and dealers…hmmm), one child has serious gastronomic problems which led to hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses,(mother was still a drug user), and when our government paid for her to leave the state to get medical help/surgery, and many surgerys later with a $900 bill for the mom to be paid, SHE BITCHED!! She figured that the government screwed her over, and 'How can they expect me to pay that?' THATS EXACTLY WHAT SHE SAID, AND MEANT IT!!! Guess who shes voting for president. We held a benefit for the childs expenses. She bought a car and one of the Dads bought a new gold necklace and a cell phone.

Bottom line----The whole medical industry; the doctors, insurance companies, hospitols, lawyers, etc.,
LEGALISED, ORGANISED CRIME!! Doesnt our government have laws against that?????

Okay, I'm done now. Think wood, think wood, think wood. There, I'm okay now!!! 

Revolution? I'll be on the front line.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

lol, thats awsome celtic ! medical treatment is a crapshoot ! i near fell of my chair laughing ! what came to mind was a guy near here a few years ago who needed a foot amputated , sure enough the dr. promply cut off the wrong foot . the way i see it he had some really good odds going in after all he only had 2 feet . i think that makes it right at 50- 50 . that would make it at the worst 2 amputations at the very most ( which is what he ended up with ) . suppose it was a finger he needed taken off , he could end up rolling the dice as much as 9 times ! lol as a follow up to the story you should have seen the smile on the guys face when he came wheeling out of the courtroom in his wheelchair after being awarded 250 thousand dollars ! now im confident this old black guy couldnt count all the way to 250.000 especially since he only had fingers to work with ! as for the dr. well he lost his job at tampa hospital he went to rolling the dice at another hospital somewhere here in fl. and i might add he made another bad roll there as well when he had two women in a room and prescribed ones meds to the other and near killed her ! where that dr. is now i have no idea but i have no problem wishing hes in your town and not mine ! i prefer a good dr. over a lucky one ! lol however your original statement is true obscene lawsuits are a huge problem .


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## Sac (Jun 14, 2008)

Great subject Grumpy. Alot of good responses here. Locally the ER will accept anyone with or without the ability to pay. There are private hospitals that can turn you away if you can't prove the ability to pay but I am not aware of any within 50 miles of here.

Michael Moore the reality junkie that hypes his stories to get an audience. I watched maybe 10 minutes of one of his so called documentaries and turned the channel. He loves to play on peoples ignorance. Sorry just my 2 cents worth.


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## jcees (Dec 31, 2007)

Dennis, I feel you, brother! And what you're talking about is *ALSO *an abuse perpetrated by the insurance companies. Ratings run counter to the impetus of insurance [to spread the cost of the few over the many]. Rather it is a mechanism by which they *insure profits* and unfortunately at the expense of folks who need it most. The system is flawed on *ALL *levels BUT it isn't necessarily broken. The fact that the system exists at all is a miracle of civilization. Canada is a nation of only 33 million people. The U.S. has over 300 million give or take a few million undocumented aliens. Knowing this, here's my Twelve Step Program for reforming our present healthcare system.

*Understanding that any meaningful reform has to be systemic. *

1. Eliminate for-profit hospitals and hospital corporations. Hospitals should be like franchises of *"the system"* and not profit centers.
2. Eliminate medical malpractice lawsuits except for the most egregious examples. [this would eliminate the ambulance chasers and the 1-800-ASK-GARYs and maybe all those damn billboards]
3. Start an MIB to identify and eliminate *bad *healthcare professionals especially doctors who can move about the country leaving bodies in every state. The insurance companies fully fund and support the current MIB in order to keep patient fraud in check. [this one should surely be a *duh*].
4. Restrict insurance companies from denying claims. Put the burden of proof on them in order to deny a claim and that they should pay *ALL * legitimate claims within 30 days. [no more instant denials and recovery is their burden]
5. Make healthcare and necessary related services 100% tax deductible regardless of income [another *duh* that's overdue]
6. Eliminate Medicare and reform Medicaid. Transition those on Medicare back into the marketplace to expand the pool of payers and thereby lower premiums overall. This might be the most impossible one to do as we know what happens when an "entitlement" is threatened… [i.e. govt jobs]
7. Establish uniformity of care and procedures across the country. A test or procedure should cost the same *ANYWHERE* it is offered. [another *duh*]
8. RE-Establish the patient/doctor relationship with regards to payment. Everyone should be able to talk $$$ with their Doc. Also, make the doc's remuneration public, the clinic's fees posted and the hospital's like a menu. [I'll take the tri-plex IV, please. That way you won't have to stick me AGAIN AND AGAIN, oh, and I'll bring my own aspirin, thank you.]
9. Eliminate the disparities between private, institutional and insurer fees for service. [this is one of the more egregious aspects of our present system and should already be illegal]
10. Punish abusers, especially repeat offenders of the system. [make accountable; individual and corporate] Also, take care of illegals but send the bill to their native land. Make this a part of any and all trade agreements [and add the cost of collections too].
11. With the money regained via the elimination of Medicare, establish mobile wellness and diagnostic clinics. If buses can be converted to Blood-Mobiles and Book-Mobiles why not Care-Mobiles specifically for the hinterlands? 
12. Make *EVERYONE *accountable for their own health. If we're going to eliminate insurer "ratings" we have to allow the insurer to at least arbitrate claims that are questionable. Again, the burden is shifted to the insurer, but a patient must understand that their health is their responsibility [if they smoke or otherwise engage in dangerous activities then their deductibles should be adjusted accordingly, you gotta pay if you wanna play]

This is my short list. It addresses everyone involved in healthcare and is still by no means a comprehensive one. It's just the most obvious I can identify being married to a provider, the brother of a sickly man and a late-in-life asthma sufferer [never been a smoker]. I know what it's like to be denied coverage BUT I've never accepted being denied treatment. My body is the only one I came with so I have to do right by it while I'm in it. That reminds me, I really should lose a few pounds. Hmmmm…..


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Wow this did stir the possum. I guess it's true to say there are lots of issues with heath systems as pointed out by Michael Moore but somewhat exaggerated. An interesting topic & thanks for the input. I think I won't grumble so much about the health system down under.


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2016.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers' earnings since 2000.

One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious.

Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.18 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.

The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

I only see the health problem in this country getting worse. Look at the youth. They look more like mushrooms then kids. Hospitals and doctors are only part of the problem. We need to also look at all the crap we allow kids to graze on.

My oldest is a 6th grader. They actually have pop machines in the school for these kids. Everyone knows this is wrong, but the schools make a pretty penny off these machines so they don't care. They have also dropped gym to save money. Our kids are getting fat and our schools add pop to there diet and remove any physical activity. Not very smart if you ask me.


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## CelticDreamer (May 24, 2008)

mrtrim, you point out the obvious tradgedy of amputating the wrong appendage, and that's fine. I agree with you that the patient needs compensating and the doctor needs punishment. What I'm trying to point out is the person who goes to the doctor with an illness that comes with some basic symptoms and the doctor puts him/her through 21 tests and still can't decide what's wrong. Those lab tests aren't cheap and so many of them give a result that could be any one of a number of illnesses. Well, it could be this, so we'll give you this medicine, but if it doesn't help we'll try something else. Perhaps crapshoot wasn't the best of words - maybe medicine is not always an exact science would be better? I do stand by my original statement the the lawers are to blame!


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

celtic , im a guy who can find humor in a heart attack , and was not dixcounting your comment . your choice of wording just hit my funny bone ! lol i cant agree that lawyers are to blame . but they certainly share in it .
how about the judges and juries ? theres plenty of blame to go around . i read thru this thread and see fingers pointed at just about everyone from people like myself and dennis because we cant afford health ins. to micheal moore to dr.s hospitals and ins. cos just about everyone except where it belongs , ourselves .
until we standup as a people and and in great numbers and demand something better we wont get it .
some believe they can votr thier way to a better system . i dont think so . i do think the system will change in the next couple years and everyone will have health ins. from what i see on the news they are already trying out a new idea in massachusetts . it seems ins. is now mandatory and everyone has to have it . my guess is that thats exactly what we will soon see as healthcare reform . my thoughts are this premiums in mass. will likely go down . because everyone is buying it ?? no because the ins. co. will consider it an investment to lower rates there . theres nothing they would like more than for ins. to become mandatory acroos the country . how many times does it have to be proven to us that the words mandatory and cheaper do not work with each other . a lot of people are bashing moores film , i have not seen it and never heard of it until last week . i was surfing the channels looking for somethig to watch that wouldnt make me barf , that can be a challenge at times , suddenly theres moores face . im thinking whatever this is could be interesting because this guy stirs up more ******************** than a pig farmer . turns out it opra . along with him she had others that i cant positively identify as i missed the introductions . from what i gathered one woman was representing the healthins. industry and was clearly there to dicount moore and in my view failed miserably . another guy was from germany and had moved from there to canada . i guess his purpose was to give input on social healthcare . his veiw on canadas system was about the same as ms. deb has posted . if you need a bandaid youll likley be waiting . if you have a heart attack youll get immediate care . there was a woman dr. there whos job for quite a while was working for an ins. co reviewing claims and aproving or deneying . she had quit the job as eventully it made her physically ill thinking about some of the care she had to deny to people that she knew in her heart as a dr. that they really should have . at the end of the show opra ask moore what his point of the film was . his answer was pretty much the same as *jacees *is saying , do we as a people want our healthcare decided on a profit and loss viewpoint ? his example was this what if your house was on fire and you called the fire dept and they said gee whizz your all the way across town . that may sound a little over the top but look at it this way , the police are already starting to demand payment inn some cases such as the run away bride in atlanta why cant the fire dept charge you if they have to come to put a fire out ? is this in our future ? as a taxpayer all my life ive paid ive paid my share for fire service . my house has never caught fire so why should i pay as much as the guy down the street that has had 3 fires at his house in the last six years, because he smokes in bed ? so my point is the issue is very complex and the govt. cant solve it , after all they cant even solve the simple problems .

my personal veiw on healthcare is this ,
ive worked my entire life and paid my taxes
im a war veteran who has fought and bled for my country
ive done very little time in prison lol 
whever times have been good ive given to various charities ( mostly fallen fire and police ) and red cross ect.
that said i cant find any way possible ive ever been a burden on our system 
in my view i help pay healthcare for the following ,
some of the wealthiest americans , 
most of the poorest americans,
all of the active military ,
an exploding no. of ex military ( since health care is gotten so high a lot of vets are turning to the v a )
all the in carcerated prisoners 
illeagle aliens 
thats the top of my head list . i somehow cant feel selfish to think i should have healthcare for myself .
thank you my friends and if you read all this you need a hobby ! lol have a great day


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## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm originally from Canada (definitely moving back for retirement!) and have experience with Canadian health care in both BC and Ontario. It can be pretty bad in Ontario. My brother died from hospital neglect and my sister probably would have if my niece (with a *very* strong personality) hadn't been working in the same hospital. In BC, on the other hand, I have seen none of these problems. The difference? In Ontario everything is free. In BC, there is a $35/month/family charge (at least there was 15 years ago). That seems to be just enough to make a BIG difference.

As far as the cost of health care goes here in the US, even though you have to pay over $1000/hr to see a Dr, you'd be surprised at how little the Dr's make. All the money goes to liability insurance. The problem has as much to do with the screwed up legal system as the greedy and corrupt medical system. Since I've moved here I've come to the conclusion that the US is the only country in the world where you can get paid for your own stupidity. Like the lady who had a corporation and worked out of her own house. She was too lazy to change the light bulb to the basement, broke her leg falling down the stairs, sued herself and won!

My own recent experience: About 3 months ago I screwed up my knees. The Dr said I needed 6 weeks of PT. At the end of 2 weeks I was starting to get quite a bit better, but then the insurance company decided I only needed 2 weeks, so they cut me off. Within a week I was almost as bad as when I started. It's now been ~3 months and I haven't been able to do much more than putter in my shop since it happened - because of the insurance company.

I agree that the Sicko movie exaggerates things some. But the bottom line is, it's all true.

Thankfully, I don't get sick as often as I used to. Up until about 2 years ago I was to the Dr. or in the hospital 2 or 3 times a year for one thing or another. Now… arthritis, psoriasis, depression, ADHD, numbing nerve problem in both elbows, all gone. Tremors, cholesterol, insomnia, brain fog, bad memory, all substantially reduced and steadily improving. 2 years ago I started studying nutrition and found I can cure all those so called "incurable" conditions simply by eating the right food. I used to be on 4 prescriptions (yes I had the same fights with the insurance company about that too) to take care of my "incurable" conditions, now I take none.

Here's the solution to the health care problem: *Don't get sick!!* Not possible you say? I recommend every one watch a video called "*Food Matters*". You can get it at FoodMatters.tv. You can watch it online for $5 (if you have broadband) or you can get the DVD for $30 (I have nothing to do with these people, I was just impressed with the vid). I highly, *highly, HIGHLY* recommend this video. I can't stress that enough. Trust me, this will be the best thing you have ever done for your self or your family. The video touches on a multitude of health topics and and how to use simple food to heal yourself. Believe me, it's easy, 100% safe (unlike all the drugs being pushed on us) and well worth it.


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

WOW, Grumpy… You've sure stirred the pot… lol.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

well korz, if thats all you got to offer here go away !! lol after all your just one of those barnacles on the good ship TAXPAYER !!! lol i know what your thinking steve and dont worry im never gonna drive thru your town . youd have more tickets pinned to me than a chinese laundry ! lol


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

MrTrim… I thought you were in rehab? They must've kicked you out early due to lack of coverage… lol.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

acually steve while in rehab i picked up some new skills and i now have more free time !


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

LOL!!!


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Firstly I do not believe that there is a single industrial nation in the world that could not provide their citizens with good health care. The problem for the most part is that section in the Governments' budgets called General Revenue. It' s true purpose is a political slush fund with every elected politician that does not owe favors hence a pet project that gets paid out of general revenue.
Someone mentioned smoking(of course) except Governments are just as addicted to the tax revenue as the smoker is to nicotine. Far as I know….no Provincial Government in Canada has legislated that tobacco tax be assigned to health care….instead it goes into general revenue. Someone mentioned "fat kids". Stop pumping hormones into beef & pork to fatten those animals up quicker because you are what you eat. Remember when 12 year old girls looked 12 years old instead of 20 & it was a rare 16 or 17 year old boy that took a size 13 shoe & was big enough to be a linebacker in the NFL ? I didn't have a full beard to shave until I was 21 !
Ohhh wellll.

Lee


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

mrtrim, I have a story about Beggars signs.
Juan and Jose begged on the street every day,
Juan would come back with $10's $20's $100"s stuffed in his can.
Jose would have change and some $1's.
Jose thinking Juan had a better spot said , share the wealth let's trade places for a while, surprisingly Juan said no problem, 2 days later the same thing, chump cange for Jose and Juan, well stuffed can, Juan even had a new car and owned his home clear, all his kids were going to a fine University.
Jose said finally are you selling drugs, Juan said NO! Then what is the secret?
Juan said no secret what are YOU doing wrong, let me see your sign, it said 
"HELP PLEASE I have 6 Kids lost my job and my wife is sick we are all hungry, God Bless!
Juan said My sign says HELP PLEASE I need to get back to Mexico and all I need is $100


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

lol thx for peeing in my cornflakes ski ! and if you should run into JAUN you tell that turd im comeing to gat my 100.00 back !! lol


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Oh Man he got you TOO!!!!!


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

LOL… Dude, that's funny…


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## CaptnA (Dec 17, 2007)

Geez miss a few days and I'm outta the loop!
Like so many I hate a lot of things about this country. Like most I'm staying here. No where I'd rather be!
We pay out the yang for insurance. I've had to use it- too many times.
LOML had a cancer incident. 11 doctors later not visits, 11 different doctors -she finally had surgery. 
Not one of those doctors could tell you a thing about her. They don't seem to care, and they obviously don't read medical records. How do I know this? I'm not as medically ignorant as I come across. I've been in the fire service and pre-hospital EMS system since 1974. I really do know a few things.
For instance when a patient is allergic to sulfa drugs, you don't prescribe them medications with Sulfa in them. You don't treat body parts that were previously removed surgically. What a revelation! I could go on, but won't (no thanks needed lol) The doctor actually asked me if they knew beforehand. I told him that only the people that read her charts/records and asked pertinent questions and listened to the answers would have that information. It seemed he wa snot one of those. I DID show him three places on her chart/record where the information was written in RED BRIGHT LARGE LETTERS.
So many months later, after the surgery - we still have not had one report on her condition. No pathology report. No call to schedule a follow up. The cash cow must have dried up.
The point is this. I am medically more informed than the average patient. Good for us. I am NOT intimidated by the letters MD or DO behind a name. I am not afraid to stand up and get in a doctor's face and ask questions and make medical demands based on current medical information and standards. I WILL get on the phone with insurance companies, doctor's offices, pharmacies or who ever and do everything to see that me and my family receive the best medical treatment necessary. That's why anytime anyone in my family has a medical issue I seem to get involved - at their request/insistence.
Good medical care is indeed available in this country. Mistakes happen. There are ways to minimize these. Communication is a huge part of it. The patient is responsible for assuring they get it. 
We tend to leave it to the medical professionals. They won't/can't do it all. For all the reasons listed above and many many more. I know a lot of medical prefessionals. Doctors, nurses, XRay techs, pharmacists etc. Each and every one of them is human and as such are subject to human mistakes and all the stresses that affect of all. 
Want a good laugh? Try to talk to someone about a concept called a medical advocate. Someone whose job is to watch out for YOUR best medical interest. NO insurance company is going to pay for it. Plain and simple. When LOML had a workers comp issue the ins co. sent a 'medical advocate' to her appointments with her. Sadly and obviously she was not there for LOML's best medical interest - she was there to protect the insurance company's interests. She truly didn't like me being there. too bad for her. I had one interest and it seriously and routinely seemed to conflict with her interest. I won. She lost. She quit coming to the appointments. Always something, isn't it? 
What an enigma. Something as important as our health left to persons who have no interest in our best interest ( with sadly few exceptions). 
We can't afford health care. And we can't afford not to have it. we can't afford insurance and we can't afford not to have it. 
I wish I knew more about Canada's system. My limited knowledge comes from a few friends from Canada. 
They have health care but it can take a long time to get in to see a dr because as I understand everyone goes to the dr and often. There are only so many doctors and many of them go to other places to make a decent living wage. Again this is as told to me. 
I've seen the health clinics and such here. Overwhelmed and over used. Good people that seem to soon have their ideals of helping those in need shattered by the reality of people using the system to meet their desires and disregarding their needs. Warm bed, clean sheets, hot meal, personal attention, it goes on and on. 
Its a circle. It all depends upon and is brought down by so many other things.

I'd LOVE to see anyone in the political world do ONE step towards true medical care reform. 
I can't believe it will ever happen. too much money at stake. Too many political implications Too many lobbyists. Too many lawyers. 
The billions (more?) of dollars at stake DO outweigh any sense of right and wrong it seems.
Sigh so it goes on and on and we truly pay for it in so many many ways….
Even the 'film makers' are making money off the sad realities of the state of medical care here.
God bless America.


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## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

*IT SEEMS LAWYERS HAVE TAKEN A BIT OF A BEATING IN THIS THREAD SO MAYBE THIS STORY WILL HELP REDEEM THEM *
A local United Way office realized that the organization had never received a donation from the town's most successful lawyer. The person in charge of contributions called him to persuade him to contribute.

"Our research shows that out of a yearly income of at least $500,000, you give not a penny to charity. Wouldn't you like to give back to the community in some way?"

The lawyer mulled this over for a moment and replied, "First, did your research also show that my mother is dying after a long illness, and has medical bills that are several times her annual income?"

Embarrassed, the United Way rep mumbled, "Um … no."

The lawyer interrupts, "or that my brother, a disabled veteran, is blind and confined to a wheelchair?"

The stricken United Way rep began to stammer out an apology, but was interrupted again.

"or that my sister's husband died in a traffic accident," the lawyer's voice rising in indignation, "leaving her penniless with three children?!"

The humiliated United Way rep, completely beaten, said simply, "I had no idea…"

On a roll, the lawyer cut him off once again, "So if I don't give any money to them, why should I give any to you?"

*OR NOT !! LOL*


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

*He sounds like a real family man! * (o>


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Thats a good one Trim but sad if true.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

Canada has a no pay system subsidized heavily by taxation
In recent years consecutive governments have slashed healthcare education enrolements and increased immigration.
The unfortunate result now is that we have too few healthcare providers and many new immigrants comming to Canada are driving taxis waiting for the government of the day to test and apporove thier skills to practice here.
As several have mentioned it is the politics that screws everybody over.

I would still take this flawed system over anything offered in the U.S.
*
I can't imagine having to turn over my life savings after serving my country for a lifetime!*

Bob


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hold on there, Bob #2!!
I'm a US citizen living in Canada. One of my first healthcare experiences here was watching my father-in-law die of toxic shock in a ward hallway because no beds were available and no kidney dialysis unit could be found to save his life.
Having had heart procedures in both the US and Canada, I'd take the US system any day. At least the nurses scrub their hands, change latex gloves and discard lancets after one use in the US.
Canada gutted its military system and switched spending from defense to subsidized healthcare back in the 60's. In the words of Mark Steyn, Canada healthcare is supported on the backs of US taxpayers, who of course will protect Canada from aggressive nations.
Heaven help us all if America scrapped its military in favor of free healthcare.


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

I responded earlier about 28 hours in the hospital to have 1 stent put in my heart. The hospital cost was 11,000 dollars. 
Well, today the bills came in for the 2 specialists that did the work. The first doc that did the mapping of my heart, 1 hour of work, 7,000 dollars. The second specialist, that placed the stent, 5,700 dollars for about 25 minutes work. Plus they had 3 more docs come in to see the pictures and agree with them to put a stent in, 500 per doc. For a grand total of 14,200 dollar for a couple of hours of work. Remember, thats doctors alone. The real total is over 35,000 for 28 hours in the hospital. You would think they were pro athletes getting that kind of money. This is one reason the system is not as good as it could be.


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

JimB, that is a heavy cost. Lets hope it's all worthwhile in the end.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

JimB,
That was a heavy cost BUT your ticker is working!
I can't blame the DR's, they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and about 15 of the best years of thier life before they start making big bucks. They have alot of liability and responsibility SO if they are good it's worth every penny! I want the highest paid DR's working on ME!
I will skimp on a Aisian Bandsaw, but will stick with top of the line Dr's
I DO have a problem with the big insurance companies, They used to be non profit orgs. (blue cross) when I started working.
Pharmacutical Co's have alot of liability and research cost but I think they are gouging a bit.
But I always have had excellent health insurance where I have worked so I don't feel the bite like some.


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## itsme_timd (Nov 29, 2007)

If I repeat what someone else has said, I apologize… I read many of the posts but not all of them - this is obviously a popular topic!

1st - The "documentary" Sicko. I've not seen this one but have seen other Michael Moore films, I've also seen films on the Michael Moore does his "documentaries". He really, really exaggerates issues in his films and misleads the people he uses as examples. Again, I haven't seen Sicko but I know Michael Moore!

2nd - US Healthcare. We ain't perfect here, for sure. There are definitely extreme cases of people not getting treated because of the cost, lack of insurance, etc. and people that are run around in the system. but there are also the cases where a sick child (my stepson) is giving world class treatment, surgery by one of the most respected pediatric surgeons in the US, we were provided lodging and meals, as well as an at-home nurse. With our insurance we paid a total of $3,000.00 out of pocket for a saga that went on for 6-months. God bless the USA! ;-)

I've also heard of the waiting lists in Canada and stories of people chartering buses to the US to get treatment that they would have to wait for at home. Now, I'm sure the show I saw exaggerated the issues and used people that specifically addressed what they were trying to shine a light on, but I'm sure that is an issue.

Every system (group, government, country, etc.) has its ups and downs, its great points and its not-so-great points. Our medical system is flawed, for sure, but I'm sure Mr. Moore makes it out to be much worse thant it is.


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## itsme_timd (Nov 29, 2007)

Oh yeah, I meant to say…

Grumpy, sincere thanks for asking us about this. I think that shows the broad reach of LJ and I'm glad you asked rather than just taking the film as gospel!


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

Nothing against Canada, but we shouldn't be comparing our system to theirs. We ranked 37th and they rank 30th. Being better then Canada doesn't give us a good health care system. We can do better. France, Italy, Spain, and Japan are the models we need to be looking at. Our main problem is 44 millions people in the states have no insurance. We can all agree that is to many.

As a country we spend more on health care then anyone else. How can this be when we have 44 million people not covered?


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Hold on Poopiecat: Heck you think the USA would step in & protect Canada ? It's more likely that the USA would invade Canada to "protect us" to say nothing of protecting American Corporate investments. You guess which would be the main concern based on historical fact.
Hey Bob2: Not all of Canada has a no pay medical system. British Columbia as well as Alberta levy annual fees for medicare & both Provincial systems stink due to politics.
Nobody has complained about the drug company huge profits. Have you bought a lousy bottle of asprins lately to get some idea of what these corporations are costing health care systems.
And why are we so darned determined to increase lifetimes ? I'm in my late 70's & I can tell you that aging sucks despite being relatively healthy. With the envirionment going down the tubes, the corporate greed that has been demonstrated to be prevailent, the cruelty to fellow man that can be found every day in our newspapers heck, I be glad to go when my time comes & wave bye bye to the mess I'm leaving behind.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Seems like quite a bit of beating up on corporations for their "corporate greed". Being a conservative, I have to take exception with this.

When you say "corporate greed", what you are really saying is "I don't like how much money they are making - it's too much". *Might I point out the purpose of a business is to make a profit for it's owner(s)?* A business, to survive, must grow and protect profits.

These large corporations are often in the portfolios of many retirees (or working people), and thus, their stock price affects your wealth as well.

For you people out there that want to tax the hell out of these companies, because of their "corporate greed" - you are essentially lowering their profit - and they are simply going to rasie prices further to compnesate for that lost profit, and may get out of the business all together. Only a very few companies make vaccines now; why? Because of massive lawsuits, usually baseless. Why bother?

"Corporate greed" is the motivation behind bringing products and services to the marketplace. If there was no greed, there would not be much of a push to get into a business, would their? Putting up millions of dollars on research and development for a product, is a crap-shoot. Companies should be rewarded with a profit for doing so.

Here in the US, we have the Democrats crying to tax the "windfall profits" of oil companies, because they are making record profits - right now. Who the hell are they to say "You make TOO much money, so we're taking some."? Huh? Isn't that the point of business? That's not to say businesses can price gouge - say, charging double for gas during a hurricane; but let them make money that pays for people's jobs and benefits.

Regarding insurance companies, and denial of claims. My brother-in-law is a pharmacist, and he approves or denies claims made by doctors. They might want to try drug X for an off-label use on a condition. It's up to him to decide whether the company will pay for that or not. People talk as if these insurance companies should never challenge a treatment, procedure or drug. Shouldn't they? Should they just be a medical ATM? I understand that sometimes they won't cover perfectly legitimate treatments, drugs or procedures - but they also have appeal processes in place for such complaints.

Let me say, I see plenty of things I don't understand in healthcare, with the wild prices people charge for procedures or services. Anecdote: I had my throat looked at, and the ENT doc used this scope that goes up my nose and down my throat. My insurance is charged something like $200 for the use of that equipment - which is not a nuclear-ion-magnetic-resonance machine! The thing probably costs a couple of grand. So that thing is paid for in a month - at the most; the rest is gravy for the doc. Another thing - eyeglasses. Ever pay for them? You're looking at $300 bucks or so, and often paid for by insurance. I pay cash for mine - about $50, thru a website, 39dollareyeglasses.com. The deal is, I am paying for it - so I looked for the best deal. When people use insurance, no one cares about the cost - not even the evil insurance companies. My aforementioned brother-in-law said "What are we going to do, deny them the drug?" when I asked him about very expensive, yet appropriate drugs, for a patient. See what I mean? So they approve the claim, must raise their rates, and/or cutback on other claims, to make a decent profit.

I put some weight on the drug companies, with their high-paid and highly-prevelant sales reps, huge ad budgets, and high drug prices. Yes, I would like them more closely looked at. I'd also like the rates doctors charged looked at, as well as the other insurance leeches, like ambulettes, scooter stores, and the like.

I don't pretend to be an expert in this area - I'm not. But I don't think this "corporate greed" term is being well used.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Corporate greed is exactly what is inferred by the term & not to be construed as conservatism. Corporate greed is running up share prices through fraudulent accounting & in essence share holders & employees are the ones who suffer. Conservatism on the other hand is the belief that there is no such thing as being your brother's keeper. In both cases a concience is sadly lacking.

Lee


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Lee I agree, Big Corps have got the conservates believing thier BS
"Corp GREED" No crime in making money untill you care ONLY about profit and DO NOT care about your Employees or the working masses or your *Country*
That about covers 99% of large Corps in the USA.
Even if they have an office in the Bahamas to hide from Uncle SAM and call theirselves American!!


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## CelticDreamer (May 24, 2008)

"Corporate greed" is the motivation behind bringing products and services to the marketplace. If there was no greed, there would not be much of a push to get into a business, would their? Putting up millions of dollars on research and development for a product, is a crap-shoot. Companies should be rewarded with a profit for doing so.

Didn't I see that word "crapshoot" somewhere else in this thread….?


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Obviously this is a hot potato.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Pashley and Celtic are correct. There's plenty of laws on the books regulating finance, tax statutes, environmental responsibility, etc. Anyone who manages to get beyond all that and make money, more power to them.
This "Corporate Greed" arguement doesn't hold water anymore, it did only in the days when Finance, Labor, and Environmental reserves were exploited. There's just too much regulation on the books preventing that from happening anymore. Imagine Carnegie's steel-mill smokestacks belching now as they did in the 1920's!!!!
Has anyone ever purchased, for example, a Delta Tools product and paid the Manufacturer's List Price? Of course not; you paid the lowest price possible, made possible by a retailer's 'corporate greed'. 
I'd be dead now, if not for technical innovation by a few, ahem, greedy medical device technology (and pharmacological) corporations.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Well Poopiekat: Just hope North America never gets into a shooting match with China. Suddenly all that off shoring of manufacturing will come home to roost because not only was the manufacturing sent there…so was the technology. Now then lets really take conservatism to task. All those CEO's skimming off the top literally hundreds of millions in stock options. Very few of them worth it. If they were they would start their own company. Most got there by being in the right place at the right time and instead of smart…sly. And there is a difference. You think your paying the "global price" when you fill up at the pump? Those 500 commodity traders on the Exxon Mobile payroll would roll in the aisles laughing to hear you say it. Funny how every time the "global price" goes up ….so does corporate oil company profits. It's now at the point where the economies of North America is at risk .More so in the U.S. than Canada.
And what's with this carbon credits companies are busy buying & trading ? What a joke….none of it actually reduces polution….so where's the money going ?
I remember when Allan Greespans' name was said with reverence…..just remember that it was on his watch
that sub prime mortgages came into being & look what's happening now. Your tax dollars are propping up the mortgage insurers. Nope…making profits does not excuse a lack of morality.

Lee


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

WOW HOT TOPIC, Grumpy got a full mailbox!
Poopiaecat "There's just too much regulation and laws" 
Yea and who's following or enforcing them !!! Congress tries to but just gets a BIG middle finger from
President Cheney and Vice President Rove, they got a Chimp for distraction and do whatever they want for their Corporate Masters!!!! 
Lee I hope China never calls us on the Trillons we owe!!
Funny we had a surplus 7 some years ago!


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

Yeah, *mski,* we had a tax surplus. Doesn't that kinda mean you are taxing too much? Yes, quite.

*LeeinEdmonton* - you're confusing greed with motivation and corruption. I'm not advocating corporations do illegal activities, of course. Those that do, should be punished. But it seems you believe that corporations should just barely make a profit, giving away their products or services at just above cost, and/or paying each employee 10X what they are worth. If a company did that, any down times or "hiccups" they experienced would wipe them out. I recall a story done on Ford or GM, in which a worker would screw on a radiator cap on a pickup truck, get in, drive it around a corner to the next assembly line worker, hop out, go back…and repeat. They were getting $50 an hour to do that! That's insane. That person was worth $15 an hour, max. Now an auto mechanic, that's about what they get, $15 an hour, but they deserve $25.

Look at GM - a quintessential American company. Last year, I heard that every car they produce has more money in employee benefits, than in steel. In fact, they pay over *one Billion dollars* a year for medical insurance/expenses for retired employees and their families! This are people no longer making money for the company, and are strictly a liability. This was an extremely bad decision to extend benefits to these retirees - made decades ago, I'm sure, and done to avoid a crippling union strike. Now, they have their backs up against the wall in the auto market, and the are still liable for these benefits. Corporate Greed?

You can complain about Exxon making too much money, but you need to yell at the top of your lungs at the other entity that gets even more money per gallon than Exxon - and here, that's the State of New York. Yes, the tax we pay on gas is a percentage of the price - so the higher gas goes, the more NYS makes - and at no cost! Straight profit. Record profits for Exxon? Wonder why? They make 10% on what they pay for oil - so if they pay $100 for a barrel, they are making more than they would at $50 a barrel. Also, Exxon *pays more in taxes than it earns after taxes* - about $19 billion more over the last four years. Not to mention the huge money they have to pay for exploration and getting that oil from the ground to the marketplace. Maybe, they should just make $1000 after taxes?

Again, I'm not advocating price gouging, or gains by illegal means; what I am advocating is companies making a good profit - that will come back to us all in tax revenue, increased portfolio values, and jobs.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

I never paid hardly anything to the tax man, I don't make $200,000 +
And if you do make that much and are complaining all I have to say is WAAA WAAAA


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*mski,* so, if you make a lot of money, say $250k or more, it's ok for the government to take half, but if you make $35k the government shouldn't take any, right? That's the typical jealousy factor you see in class warfare, a favorite democratic tool. I thought liberals were obsessed with fairness; that everyone must be treated equally? Not when it comes to someone making more money though, right? Punish them for earning their money!


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

Exxon/Mobil as we speak, are making 1,500 dollars PROFIT per SECOND. Thats after all costs. Does a business deserve to make a profit, heck yes. Does the american public deserve to be raped like this? No way.
BTW, that figure has been well published and proven.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Pashley: Sorry but nowhere did I say or intend to imply that Corporations should just barely make a profit.
mski Your right…last time I heard their investments in the U.S. was 7 trillion U.S. dollars. The withdrawal of those funds would make the sub-prime mortgage fiasco look like peanuts. Again….it happened on Greenspan's watch.
I have a "ton" of relatives in the U.S. & I feel uneasy for them. Just like us in Canada, they have nobody to vote for. However, at least they have a limit on the time a jerk can be President whereas we have to put up with our "jerk" (Prime Minister)forever.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*JimB*, exactly how much do you think they should make, per second? Can the public not go to other vendors for the oil? Are we really being "raped" , paying about an average of $3.68 per gallon of regular, while in Europe, they average *$8.70 a gallon*, USD - that would be about $156 to fill up your 18 gallon tank.

$1500 bucks profit per second - man that's a lot of cash; aren't you glad we have an American company making that kind of money, increasing retiree portfolios, providing good-paying jobs and benefits?

I'm sure you are!


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

Ok, I can't stand it any longer. Our whole economy is based on oil and gasoline is just part of what is produced from oil. Some of the other things made from oil are:

Ammonia, Anesthetics, Antihistamines, Artificial limbs, Artificial Turf, Antiseptics, Aspirin, Auto Parts, Awnings, Balloons, Ballpoint pens, Bandages, Beach Umbrellas, Boats, Cameras, Candles, Car Battery Cases, Carpets, Caulking, Combs, Cortisones, Cosmetics, Crayons, Credit Cards, Curtains, Deodorants, Detergents, Dice, Disposable Diapers, Dolls, Dyes, Eye Glasses, Electrical Wiring Insulation, Faucet Washers, Fishing Rods, Fishing Line, Fishing Lures, Food Preservatives, Food Packaging, Garden Hose, Glue, Hair Coloring, Hair Curlers, Hand Lotion, Hearing Aids, Heart Valves, Ink, Insect Repellant, Insecticides, Linoleum, Lip Stick, Milk Jugs, Nail Polish, Oil Filters, Panty Hose, Perfume, Petroleum Jelly, Rubber Cement, Rubbing Alcohol, Shampoo, Shaving Cream, Shoes, Toothpaste, Trash Bags, Upholstery, Vitamin Capsules, Water Pipes, and Yarn. (and yes, I just googled that)
This is a list of just some of the products made from oil. Nearly everything in our lives is made from oil, made by machinery and systems dependent on oil, and transported by oil as either gas or diesel fuel.

That being said, if you just take gasoline, the "evil oil companies" are making from 8 to 10 cents per gallon. Depending on what state you live in, the government, both federal and state are taxing each gallon anywhere from 40 to 60 cents. Now I ask, who the hell is the villain here?

Those of you who buy into the extreme liberal, left wing talking points that demonize the oil companies are being led like sheep to the slaughter. (By the way, Lenin used the same language wilst overthrowing the Czars in the beginnings of communism in Russia.) Oh, they say, we're going to impose a windfall profits tax. Oh, says Barack Obama, we're going to double the capital gains tax. I've got news for you, any taxes imposed on any big business is just going to be passed on down to the comsumer. Do the math! This country was founded on free enterprise. Jeeze, there's nothing wrong with making money! Have you ever gotten a job from a poor person?

Have you paid any attention to Russia and China lately? Gee, the Russians have claimed the North Pole to drill for oil and China is drilling 50 miles off our coast. Russia has also cut capital gains. I can't under stand what some of our bass-ackwards polititians are thinking. Al Gore and Barack thinking they can wean us off oil is absolutely the bigges pile of BS I've ever heard. It ain't going to happen. (Believe me, I'm not just talking about Democrats, there are plenty of Republicans on my sh*t list too including Lindsey Graham who represents my senate district.) I'm ready to load up the torches and pitchforks and head to Washington.

I know this thread was about health care, so let me say that the last time I checked, people were clawing and scratching to get INTO this country not vice-versa. I've got health care because I've made some of the right educational and life style choices. Is it expensive? Hell yes and I'm not rich either. Anything is possible here in the US, just ask some of the Mexicans now driving Escalades and Z-71's after coming into this country with just their shirts on their backs. And, by the way, Michael Moore is just a fat bastard with an agenda.

Pashley: Right On!!!!!!

There, I feel better now and, I've got on my asbestos underwear so flame away. Now, I think I'll get back to clinging to my guns and religion and bone up on some more antipathy!!!! Have a nice day!


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Pashley, If I made $ 200,000+ I would gladly pay more, but I'm not greedy.
I do have a problem HOW they spend my tax dollars!


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

Pashley, this is not Europe. You may think its fine that a company can gouge the people like this, but a lot of americans dont. Not when the top echelon of management gets millions of dollars in pay. The natural gas company in my area also made record profits last year. Their pricing is controlled by a state commission, which they went to so they could raise their prices and make more profits. Alot of people here cannot drive their cars to work because the jobs they have to work at, dont pay that kind of money. Heating homes is another matter. To lots of americans its, eat or heat. That is reality my friend. My wife and I struggle everyday to pay bills, like lots of people. The first bill we pay is health insurance, because of my medical problems. My little s-10 pickup hasnt moved in over a month, why? The cost of gas. You drive thru my city and there isnt a single block that does not have a home for sale, most of which are sheriff sales because of the mortgage mess. But the people at the top got their profits and walked away with a lot on cash in their pocket.
Yes there are lots of problems, most of ours start in our elected officials not allowing us to drill for oil in our own country, while we become more reliant on foreign oil. Just look at the money Iraq has made from the sale of their oil.
Cedar, one note. Check the news, illegal aliens are returning to their country of origin in record numbers because of our economy.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*mski*: You'd be surprised at how "glad" you'd be to let the government take $100k of your hard earned money. If you are so happy to pay those kind of rates, I'll challenge you to send in 48% of your income now. I mean, you don't want people to think you're greedy, and keep that, do you? LOL.

*JimB:* I'm quite aware this is not Europe; the USA is much better. LOL.
Look, I don't like the cost of gas anymore than you do. I'm far from well-off. I wince to put gas in my tank. I want to see cheap, clean energy in abundance, for everybody. But the reality is this: our economy is driven on oil, figuratively and literally. You cut down that oil supply significantly, and the depression the 1920's will look like good times. And we won't just suffer, but the rest of the world will too, so dependent on our economy that they are.

So you have a problem with executives making mult-millions of dollars while you can't fill your tank. Ok, what should we do? Pay these immensely talented people $100k, and expect them to stay on board? They get that because the board of directors ok'd it. As businessmen and woman, they realize that kind of management talent has a price - and it's worth paying. How about Steve Jobs, the CEO of Apple computer? What if you were the board of Apple and felt that since not everyone can afford an Apple computer, and Steve's pulling down $50 mil a year, you're going to fire him, and put in a guy that will do the job (you think) for $2 million. Great job. You essentially destroyed Apple. Jobs IS Apple - the drive, the vision, the make-it-happen guy. But hey, you lowered the priced of that Mac Computer from $1200 to $1195.

Regarding the mortgage mess - what do you think is going on? Those mean companies are somehow screwing the home owners? Jacking up rates or something? No. What happened was these people were allowed to buy more home than they could possibly afford on their income. Now, when they have job troubles, they can't make their payment. In California, I understand you need not even prove you had a job to secure a mortgage, in some cases. That's a regulatory issue - and probably a bank one as well.

Look, I'm sorry you are having a hard time with bills; I know what that is like. I have been *very poor *before - so poor, I was living in a single-room state-sponsored housing with child molesters and other losers. I hated it, but it was a catalyst for me to go back to college, and make a little more of myself. Did I envy people with money at those times? Sure, but that attitude didn't get me far; so tried to become more like them, do what they do, and I did get out of that rut. What can I say, you have to provide for yourself; no one got rich living off hand-outs.

*CedarFreakCarl: *Thanks, I think we are on the same page.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

JimB: The news I read says its the crackdown on illegals by the I.N.S. that's causing the decrease although I'm sure economy is affecting it somewhat. But, you couldn't tell it where I live. My only point was that most anyone can make it in America. The key is not to sit on your a$$ and wait for the government to take care of you. I'm not directing this comment specifically at you, but rather at the "entitlement mentality" class in general. I don't want the same government taking care of me that has bankrupted social security.

Mski: Here's the breakdown straight from the government on who pays what in federal taxes. The first column is percentage of wage earners, the second is adjusted gross income and the third column is percentage of total federal taxes paid.

Top 1% $388,806 39.89%
Top 5% $153,542 60.14%
Top 10% $108,904 70.79%
Top 25% $64,702 86.27%
Top 50% $31,987 97.01%
Bot 50% <$31,987 2.99%

It looks like to me that if you make $200,000, you're already screwed. If these taxes get any higher, it'll just boil down to a transfer of wealth which is what most democrats and liberals are after. The hell with free enterprise, it's Marxism at it's finest. Welcome to Barackamerica!


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Somehow I don't think us peasants are gonna solve this. Makes me think of a fundamental truth in the words of Henry Ford ie: The workers in my plant have to earn enough to afford the product made here. Too bad
big Corporations don't feel this way….they simply don't care.
And as far as menial work & it's worth is concerned, I happened to ask my dentist one time that if I could wave a magic wand & make the guy who picks up his garbage once a week & his family physician disappear…which one would he miss first ? Yup….the garbage man. Even the most menial job is worth a living wage…otherwise do it yourself.

Lee


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## JimB (Oct 14, 2007)

cedarfreakcarl
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-22-immigration-leaving_N.htm
PHOENIX, Arizona (AP)-Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.
It says both, flagging economy and crackdowns.

I agree with you about sitting on your butt waiting for a handout. But what about the person, who works a job they love, put their heart and sole into it. Management comes along and says well we have to lay you off, your job just got shipped to China. 30 years of work, poof, gone, 
Top5E,
I agree 100 percent about the politicians. The problem there is most of the are lawyers and are great at playing the system. Term limits would be the answer, now we all know that isnt happening.

pashley. 
all I am going to address is this quote, "What happened was these people were allowed to buy more home than they could possibly afford on their income" 
My question is who "allowed" them to get in over their heads? Oh yes the mortgage company squeezing out every penny they could. They could not say no, for profits, the bottom line.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

"livingwage" - what exactly does that mean? If you are conservative like me, it's "more than they are worth, because corporations need to help fund welfare" - which is just what that would be, *LeeinEdmonton*

You guys don't seem to understand, if you pay somebody working at McDonalds $16 an hour, instead of $7, it might seem like a good idea, but that cost is going to get passed on to consumers - and that includes the poor, who will end up paying $6 for a hamburger, instead of 79 cents. 
*
JimB* who allowed them to get in over their heads? Good question. It's my understanding that the liberal mindset did - trying to get even the poorest people into owning their own homes, whether or not they could afford it. Can't just let people that work and have a sound fiscal basis for owning a home get one! Heck no - it's got to be a completely level playing field - regardless of whether or not you can pay for it. THAT's part of the trouble, to be sure.

This liberal madness regarding total equality for everyone at all times is insane! When my six year old plays soccer - at the end of the year, EVERYBODY gets a trophy! In the schools, don't post the names of kids that are excelling - it might make the others who don't work as hard FEEL bad. We must welcome the cross-dressing 59 year old man as our kid's first grade teacher - we don't want him to FEEL bad. We can't call it Christmas, we don't want anyone to FEEL bad about being left out - and on and on and on. Who said you're entitled to not have your feelings hurt in life? Isn't that what forces us to change, to try harder? As someone with a psych background, the answer is assuredly "yes". If more people were meant to felt ashamed and uncomfortable, you'd find more people acting better, and doing better for themselves.


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## Rxmpo (Feb 23, 2008)

Pashly- I too live in NY and I could not agree more with what you have said.

Price gouging??? In NYC, the most taxed state in the US, it costs $8 for a pack of cigarettes, as of June 3rd after adding an additional $1.25 tax to generate 1.3 billion in additional "revenue". Don't you love when the tax man calls taking more money out of your pocket "revenue!" Thank God I don't smoke.

I am a pharmacist and I live the healthcare system everyday. Let me first say that "healthcare" is such an incredibly complex system which varies widely from state to state, that I laugh (nervously) every time I hear these candidates even discuss the idea of "National Health Insurance." It is a pipe dream that they are trying to sell the American people without telling you the bottom line. The cost! Think Medicaid on a national level and if that doesn't make you lose sleep at night, then you have never had someone try to pay for their cigarettes with their Medicaid "credit card." Compliments of the state that makes it "optional" for Medicaid patients to pay their co-pays.

Careful what you wish for…


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Taxes, who mentioned that nasty word.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

You know, *Grumpy,* I'm a conservative, but I don't mind paying taxes - when I know they are going to good use. That might be in defense of the country, or exploring new energy technologies. A bridge, or helping a guy that just got into a bad accident.

But man, there is so much of it just being flushed down the toilet!


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## Josh (Aug 14, 2007)

IM0 the problem is conservatives and liberals. I'm tired of people choosing a side. You may as well join the bloods or crips. I'm sorry but guys like pashley are the problem with our country. They have picked a side and will die defending there turf. It is silly. We need to round up all the Dems and Republicans and ship them off somewhere. Then the rest of us can sit down and figure out how to fix this mess. Once we get ******************** straight we could bring them all back. Neither side is helping much. The only thing we get out of them is the blame game.

The way we have things set up now it is just one group bagging on the other. It is so lame. People can't heat there houses, afford health care, pay for college, or any of the other basic things we need to survive in the global market. Instead of fixing the problems everyone just yells louder then the next guy. This stuff is played out.

pashey nothing against you. you are just the loudest on the site. hopefully you understand i'm not taking a personal attack on you as a person. My problem is the I'm a conservative or liberal crap. We are all americans and that is were the dividing should stop.

I'm also for all the kids getting trophies. There is a lot of kids out there that will never have success with sports. Most stop playing these sports at a very young age. (under 10) It hurts no one for them to get a trophy even though they weren't blessed with the talent to earn one. Most are to young to understand what is going on and most leagues are set up to be teaching leagues, not win at all cost leagues. The trophy gives everyone that taste of winning and just might bring one or two kids back to the league that were ready to quit. Once they hit preteens they stop with the everyone getting trophy's. The kids understand what they are playing for then. Makes since to me.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Pashley: So the guy at McDonalds' aint worth $16 an hour ? Fine…you have a choice. Namely, go home & make the hamburger yourself because nobody more than yourself knows better what your time is worth.

Now lets look at Warren Buffet named as the richest man in the world supposedly worth about $40 billion. Obviously very clever analyist & knows what he is doing. However, he is only clever at what he is doing. He is well past most people's retirement age yet the fool doesn't know when to call it a day. 
That's the same problem with large Corporations, they don't reconize when they have reached the acme of profits & that it is time to concentrate on quality improvement without an accompaning jack up of prices. Sort of putting back what they have taken out.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*Josh* no offense taken, and I actually agree with you! However, you should know that many of my positions actually do reach out to the other side. My feeling is, to make a convincing point on any topic, you have to acknowledge that the other guy's view on the topic does have some merit; you can't just dismiss the opponent completely and always.

Take global warming, for instance. Die-hard libs will say we are definitely creating it, and America basically needs to shut down it's economy to help out. Die-hard conservatives will say we aren't causing it, and we need to mine more coal and drill for more oil. I hold a middle of the road position. Maybe global warming is caused by man; I'm not sure. But using energy more efficiently, and looking for cleaner and cheaper technologies can only be a win-win situation. I'd love for every US home to have it's own fuel cell, geo-thermal, wind or solar power, thereby reducing dependence on foreign oil, and reducing pollution. Not to mention saving the homeowner money. I want a plug-in car! I'm tired of messy, smelly gas. I would like to think that liberal environmentalists would feel that they could work with me on this issue. THEN we could get stuff done.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

Pashley you are such a double talker!!!!! But whats new with your kind!!
I said if I MADE $200,00+ I would be happy to pay more!!!!!! NOT what I make now.

PS.
If you do not think humans are making this planet uninhabitable* for* humans, global warming or not, well , you my friend are blind!!!


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

JimB: Most of the people who live in my neck of the woods who were employed by the textile industry were offered schooling when their jobs were outsourced elsewhere. I did have a friend who was a sewing machine mechanic when his job was shipped out. He was offered paid schooling so he could get into another profession. He didn't take advantage of it and suffered for several years because of it because all he wanted to do was work on sewing machines. There was a happy ending though. When Select Comfort (the bed manufacturers ) moved into the area he got a job and is doing quite well now. He was lucky. I don't know what your situation is, but if my job were outsourced, I'd do something else. That's just me. Thanks for the link to the USA Today article.

I'm about weary of talking about all this, although some good points are made on both sides of these multiple arguments. To me, some of the wisest words ever spoken by someone in our times were those of Ronald Reagan. I know some people on this forum probably didn't like him, but he sure straightened out Jimmy Carters mess in the two terms he was in office. Here's a few of my favorites:

The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them away.

The government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book.

Thomas Jefferson once said, 'We should never judge a president by his age, only by his works.' And ever since he told me that, I stopped worrying. lol.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*CedarFreakCarl* those are great quotes.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

*CedarFreakCarl,* you also reminded me….when I lost my job here in Rochester at Kodak (they moved my group to South Carolina), they gave me something like a month's severance pay (I'd only been there 4 years), and two weeks of free re-training at any local school - I had chosen a school that taught computer-based courses, and mine was Flash. Those courses came up to about $2k, as I recall. I thought that was a pretty darn good severance package.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

That does sound like a great deal and it's good you took advantage of it. My sister in law just got laid off in Michigan and is getting a similar severance package. While she's taking advantage of it, I know quite a few that didn't. I guess the words carpe diem ring true in this case for sure. Have a good one….Carl.


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## RusticElements (Mar 14, 2008)

*This thread was originally about health care, so…*

pashley: I don't know, I think probably paying McDonald's workers $16/hr, or more, would probably be a good idea. It would put the crap that McDonald's sells out of their price range and they would be forced to actually eat real food. Healthy poor people that no longer need the health insurance they can't afford. What a concept!!!!

The problem with this health insurance/medical care issues thing comes, to a great degree, from the potential and current profits made by the medical industry in general. Drug companies, insurance companies, research companies and others are all guilty of this. Companies are in business to make money. A thoroughly justifiable concept. However, you can be guaranteed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the upper echelons of these companies have absolutely no interest in your health. At least as far as you and I being healthy goes. They can't make any money off of healthy people. Which is their one and only focus of interest. Outrages insurance and medical costs will continue as long as the system stays as it is.

Only profitable medical solutions are pursued while non-profitable ones that are already known, and actually work better than what they are researching and now providing (the evidence is overwhelming on this) are not only ignored, but suppressed.

Seems unlikely, right? Well, did you know that atherosclerosis and other heart/artery diseases, said by the medical community to be incurable and only somewhat treatable, are routinely cured by chelation therapy, a completely save and inexpensive treatment. Did you know that for cancer, chemo, radiation and surgery all have a 3% cure rate (don't confuse this with the cancer industry's 5 yr. "survival" rate), and alternative treatments, which are, BTW, easy, cheap and 100% safe - NO side effects, have a 90% cure rate? These cancer treatments are illegal in this country (although nobody can find a legitimate reason as to why, other than cutting into the drug companys' profits) so the tens of thousands of people who have been cured with these have had to go to Mexico and other countries for the treatment.

The list goes on and on. Clearly, medical insurance and medical treatment costs are going to remain out of control until these people are controlled and held accountable for their actions.

*And now back to our [seemingly] regularly scheduled programming…*

I forget who in this thread mentioned they thought the oil companies made a justifiable profit. But think of it this way. When a barrel of oil was ~$20/barrel (not that long ago) the oil companies made a pretty darn good profit. even when they had mega expenses like exploration and drilling. Now, there is no more exploration because all the oil reserves on the planet are known, and there is very little drilling left to do. So their expenses have dropped dramatically yet the price of oil is over 5X what it was. So are oil companies really making justifiable profits? Or are they raping the entire planetary economy that has come to depend on them?

And why can they get away with this?

According to most experts on the subject, the world will run out of oil around the year 2037. The most conservative estimates place that date at only 2050 (REF). Yes people, we are running out of oil, and VERY soon. So it comes down to supply and demand. That's the way the world, or at least the democratic world, works. And so it should be. But does that really justify the action of a single industry in literally crippling whole economies? It really comes down to a moral dilemma. On one hand, the only way our society can function as it is (or at least as it is supposed to be). The right to start a business and make a profit must be maintained, and taking advantage of supply and demand is part of that. On the other hand, there has to be limits placed on how much a company or industry can take advantage of a situation when the welfare of the general public is at stake (most countrys have this for at least most industries). On another hand (you didn't know I had 3 hands, did you ), the excessively high price of oil is causing and will further cause a reduction in the public's overall abuse of this resource (over consumption) as well as spur further research into alternative energies.

So, are the oil companies' profits overly excessive? Absolutely! Are they justified in making these excessive profits? Absolutely not!! None the less, I'm all for it. Of the 3 views mentioned above, I hold with the third. As mentioned many times during this thread, the problem lies with where the government uses our hard eared tax dollars. If they spent our taxes on energy research instead of achieving world oil dominance (if you really believe the Iraq war is about terrorism, I've got this great bridge I can sell you!!), the odds are extremely high that we would by now, or at least very soon, have multiple alternative forms of energy and our dependence on oil would be a minute fraction of what it is now.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

So, are the oil companies' profits overly excessive? Absolutely! Are they justified in making these excessive profits? Absolutely not!!

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think they should make?


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## itsme_timd (Nov 29, 2007)

RusticElements-> I think you read the website you're referencing incorrectly. The chart it links to states that oil production will PEAK around 2037, not that we will run out of oil. I thought that sounded strange - if we were less than 30 years away from depleting the world's oil supply we'd be hearing a lot more noise about it. This chart shows us pumping oil through at least 2125.

Grumpy-> My apologies for posting OT in your thread, but I really like to make sure information is presented accurately. Someone would read the post above and take it as gospel! One of the downfalls of this marvelous internet… ;-)


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## Grumpy (Nov 9, 2007)

Tim, no problem this end. It just goes to show how passionate things can get.


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## CedarFreakCarl (Apr 21, 2007)

Ok, the NY Times and other liberal news rags have a bad habit of floating out the raw numbers from profits that the oil companies make. Sure, Exxon Mobil made 40.6 billion in 2007. Sounds like a big number, and it is. However, when you boil it down to a percentage of revenues which is what the actual profit was, it's a measly 7.6 percent. That ain't much in my book and it just shows the "class warfare" that the liberals and democrats and even some republicans are perpetuating in this election year. Frankly it just burns me up that "making a profit" is being portrayed as a bad thing. More profits=more jobs=a better economy! It's called a clue…........look into it.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

How about a profundity applied to Corporate profits ? Namely, little piggies get fed, grown hogs get sent to a slaughter house. I suspect that a few financial executives involved in sub-prime mortgage debacle, if they haven't run for cover by now will wish they did when they find themselves in a holding pen with their prime view being the meat packing plant next door.
Funny how Capitalists furiously defend profits when times are good but if conditions sour, they start screaming for Government help. When they do….should we call these same guys Socialists ?

Lee


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## RAH (Oct 14, 2007)

Are oil company profits distributed to the share holders? If so how many of you have mutual funds, 401K's and stocks in oil companies? Teach them a lesson and take your money out, invest in companies that are developing alternative energy. I do not want to benefit from excessive profits.

$16.00 an hour for a McDonald employee! They would be on the unemployment line in no time because no one could afford the hamburger. Unless we all got a raise and raised the price of the product we are producing.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

If you look at the big picture you will notice that it is the globalist corporations and banks who are getting OUR tax dollars to bail them out. These really have their roots in wealth redistribution. The root cause here in the USA is that we have had a policy, set in place by franklin roosevelt. here is a cronology. These rule changes, set in motion the mass lending and credit debacle that is occurring now. These things take years to finally merge and show their ugly selves. Socialism masking itself as capitalism is the real problem. Re-Distribution of wealth is not a good ideology. Neither is unfettered capitalism.

Our health care system is broken in a very similar manner. The government has made an incredible number of rules and regulations that are based on socialistic principles.

I know this first hand, because of the years spent living and traveling outside the USA in socialist countries.

Let's also always remember that attorneys are a great tool to accomplish these socialist desires.

There is a whole lot of finger pointing going on in the world of politics this week. For those of you who would rather stay in the dark, stop reading. I would never want to upset your political party's talking points and ruin your day. But for those who just enjoy history or want to understand how or why we got to this point in financial chaos:

1938 Roosevelt got through a democratically controlled congress Fannie Mae.

1970 Freddie Mac was created by democrats in congress 57-43 Senate and 234-192 House.

1977 the Community Reinvestment Act was passed by the democratic congress (61-39 Senate and 292-143 House) and signed into law by Jimmy Carter. It encourage banks and mortgage lenders to loan money for housing to people who would not otherwise qualify (with Freddie and Fannie backing same by taking the paper).

1995 President Clinton signed the executive order mandating lenders expand their lending for mortgages to sub-prime borrowers (that means people who would not qualify under any criteria in a sane world). Failure to do so would result in the lending institution not having access to federal funds or the quasi governmental Fannie and Freddie.

1999 Republican Senator Phil Gramm pushed through congress deregulation laws (Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act) removing Depression era laws separating banking, insurance and brokerage activities. (a really stupid move…Black Cloud's opinion)The vote in the Senate was 98-1-1. McCain was the one who did not vote, another republican was the lone no vote. Biden and Harry Reid, who are now saying it's all Bush's fault, voted for the bill. Even Obama this week places the blamed on Gramm, but fails to mention that his running mate voted for it, and Clinton signed it into law.

2003 President Bush tried to get congress to amend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac rules to disallow loans to people who would not qualify under normal lending institution rules for making loans.
In other words, rescind the Clinton Executive order which had by now become the rules of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
The democrats in the Senate (48) used the threat of filibuster to kill the bill (got to have that magic 60 in the Senate to stop a filibuster).

2006 Greenspan testified before congress that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were both a house of cards and needed a lot more oversight and controls in case this country found itself in a recession in the future. That duty falls to the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs. Democrat Chris Dodd is Chairman. He wasn't thrilled with Greenspan's advice, because he was the number one campaign money receiver from Fannie and Freddie over the years. Obama was number 2, and he raked his largess in two years.

Now Dodd is saying he may go for the 700 billion, but he wants more oversight, which he had in the first place, but doesn't want to point his finger at himself for not doing his job, even when told there was a big problem.

Every single piece of legislation the republicans have put up to regulate the financial industry since 2000 has been killed in the senate by democrats.

95% of the homeowners are paying their monthly mortgage payments. It's those 5% that are facing foreclosure that will cost the taxpayers a trillion or so if the bailout goes through.

But when the politicians start pointing fingers, watch closely. Note that they are nowhere near a mirror.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Irrespective of whose fault it is, from what I have seen on TV whole residential districts are boarded up & under foreclosure signage. Can any one of you imagine being the first to buy one of those houses ? Where does the affected municipalities get their property taxes or are they just going to say nothing and let them accrue to the eventual surprise of someone actually preparing to purchase one ? How many sales do you think will go through if thats the case ? Where did the people go that lost their homes when the sub-prime expired & they could not manage the higher interest rates being applied ? For those in such a situation why not put them back into their homes & extend the sub-prime interest duration ? At least the municipalities get their needed taxes & the sub prime rate at compound interest would still generate a profit over & above what banks can borrow money at(simple interest)....& the calamity is spread out over a longer time to allow the financial community to develop an approach that is more than the little guy plugging the leak in the ******************** with his finger.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

Many of those communities that have large numbers of homes empty are from greedy speculators who thought they would ride the gravy train and make a pile of money on it. The communities where this type of outrageous growth was occurring were too happy to accommodate these investors. They then increased their spending and were just happy campers. Low income folks should NEVER have gone for a home loan in the first place. It is GREED at all levels of income that got us all into this mess. The financial socialists started this and it got out of hand. I really don't have much sympathy for those who invested unwisely. They were sure having a party with all of the equity lines of credit. Spend, Spend, Spend was the mantra. Unfortunately we al have to pay for the hedonistic party that ensued. It was like sharks in a feeding frenzy. These local governments were drunk with all of the new property taxes coming in. They just didn't have any common sense to take it slowly and carefully. They increased spending and projects at an outrageous level and now are crying the blues. Now, all I see is elephant tears and such crap. Let's face it, America has been on a downward spiral for many decades with uncontrolled regulations on businesses and excessive government programs.

With the wonderful " messiah" obama at the helm, we will see even more debt and businesses leaving the country. The dumbing down of America has been successfully accomplished.

Welcome to the world and life of Socialism. Get used to it because it is unfortunately here to stay.

I know these things because I have lived amongst these systems of government outside the USA and we are headed down the same disgusting path.

I will put the blame on all who participated in this debacle. The biggest and best solution is to make sure all of the existing house of representatives are not re-elected in November. Kick them ALL out to send the unmistakable message that we are as mad as hell and are not going to take it any longer.

That won't happen, so get used to Socialism because it is going to be forced upon us next year.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Say what you want John…the problem exists & carping on whose fault it is, is not going to correct it. It's like the guy who insists that he has the right of way until he is dead right. If the pooh-bahs in power all do the same thing your looking at world wide depression & the last depression of the 1930's was only broken by WW11 where countries spent themselves out of the depression killing each other.
I remember my older brothers-in-laws mentioning that the first pair of sturdy boots he ever got was when he joined the army. The other brother-in-law remembering being awed by the fact that when he joined up he got 3 meals a day. I also recall seeing a displaced couple after the war standing in the supermarket crying at the sight of all the food. I also recall the account of a guy who owned two houses. Lived in one & rented out the other. The City continued to assess taxes as though the depression did not exist because they needed the money to provide municipal services. He sold the rental house….& got the price of 2 loaves of bread for it ! We can blame everyone until we find ourselves sitting on the curb with the rest of our neighbors because we cannot afford our houses, paid for or not…..but we sure will know who to blame.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

The financial institutions, government bodies, and millions of people decided it they were going to have a global party and the party has ended.

For example: obama's plan to allow bankruptcy courts to start arbitrarily renegotiate loans and reduce home prices to a level of what an individual might be able to afford is a VERY bad idea. The market will NOT support this. You will not have anyone interested in investing in anything if this happens. The banks will not make loans if they know the risk is this high. What sane lender would? The markets would see a complete and total collapse. It sound like a good idea, but the ramifications would be extreme. 
Markets like stability. We MUST reduce the size of all levels of government. Entitlements are the root cause of the problem. If you offer healthy greens of ice cream to a child, which will they choose? Ice cream, of course. The child will become spoiled and society will have long term problems when millions of these brats grow up to be older children. This is what has happened.

Solutions:
Reduce the size of government immediately!!! Reduce entitlements immediately!!!! Encourage personal responsibility!!!! Shut down all mosques. Muslims have declared war on western civilization. We did not declare war on them. Start building nuclear reactors at a fast track pace. We MUST become energy independent!!! Remove all communists from our colleges and universities. Communists should never be allowed to operate in a free society. Bring back industrial arts to our schools. We must have true manufacturing in order to be a secure nation and have good paying middleclass jobs. Place dress codes. Bring back discipline in the schools. Get rid of the government unions. They are way too powerful!!!! They are interested only in gaining more for their union members!!! They do not care about us, the people. (The state of California is a perfect example. This state has increased revenue, in the last 5 years, 40%. They have increased spending 44%. This is an abuse that has been going on for many years. The unions control the legislature. They get what they want and thumb their noses at the taxpayer.) Delclare martial law in the areas of the country where thaere is very high crime and lots of drug dealing. This is a cancer that must be stopped. Raise all import taxes to the same level as these other countries are charging us. The main reason we are in such deep debt is because of our tremendous trade inbalance ( 4 times more annually than what we are spending on the war efforts. That comes to over a trillion dollars of debt in 3 to 4 years. Get rid of Nafta and pull out from the WTO. Kick the UN out of the USA. They hate us!!! Remove all illegals. They are a tremendous drain on our resources. (They were getting many of these fannie mae loans, choke out and close OUR emergency rooms, and currently account for appr. 25% of the people in our prisons). Only about 2% to 4% who enter actually go to work on farms. Revoke the citizenship of any naturalized citizen who is involved in criminal activity. (They swore an oath to uphold OUR laws). We must bring back a Joe McCarthy type of mentality to this nation.

The bottom line is that the one world order types and the communists are working together to destroy this nation and they are doing a very good job of doing just that.

This is just a start. By implementing these things, we would be able to show true leadership to the world and begin rebuilding this country into a jewel that would outshine any and all other nations. We are supposed to be an example of what is good about humanity. By following the ways of the dictatorships, despots, socialist & communist nations and their horrible ideologies, ( like what we are now doing is why we are in this position).

A small government and very large and vibrant middle class is the only long term solution for this planet.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

What is it Ogopogo said ??? We has seen the enemy & he is us.

Lee


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

You Got it.

One more note on this subject about the financial problems. 
Obama and his team are spouting out that it is bush's mismanagement of the financial sector that has gotten us into this mess. That is a bald face lie. The GOP has tried for many years to put back the regulations requiring lenders return to the sane times of having 20% down payments and all many other necessary safeguards for loans. The Dems voted straight down party lines against any and all changes to the lose and dangerous practices of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Dems are the main culprits. They wanted any person who was low income have the same opportunity as middle class and higher people. This socialism has brought us to our knees. 
Is anyone going to tell me that Bush is now at fault for the financial messes that are now occurring in Europe? This is a global problem. Please, don't get me wrong. The GOP is also not my favorite group of people. I consider myself more of an independent American. I am only trying to correct these lies that are being thrown around in order to pass the buck onto another political party.


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