# Should hobbyist pricing undercut the professionals or not?



## Njner (Sep 13, 2016)

Wanting to get some thoughts on pricing. I'm not looking for a typical time and materials formula. I'm having an ethical quandary.

I'm a relatively inexperienced hobbyist woodworker. I started about 22 years ago, but with some very extended pauses in between due to lack of shop space availability. I'm working on getting my shop set back up and would also like to sell some projects with the goal to minimize my losses on my hobby. Making a profit would be great, but it's not the objective. The objective is to get to practice my hobby without breaking the bank. And having the additional funds would allow me to do more projects. You know, the actual hobby part of it!

I believe in paying for/earning my experience and education either through formal channels or reduced profits/wages. But with the reduced prices on a sold piece, I feel like it could unfairly take market share and profits from a more experienced professional woodworker who relies on the craft to make a living.

And just as detrimental to professionals livelihood is selling inferior goods at full pop and polluting a consumer's trust in craftsmen if the item fails in some way. I see this all the time on the Facebook marketplace, where people are putting crap out there just to make a buck. There's not a warning label on the post saying they are inexperienced when in many cases they clearly are.

My dilemma is that I don't feel it's proper for someone with only a few months or years to price their projects at the same level as someone with drastically more experience. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to undercut them either.

I know there are both pros and hobbyists here and would like to get a take from both sides.


----------



## TravisH (Feb 6, 2013)

Price it for what you want and can get. Let buyers decided what is fair, ethical, etc..


----------



## 987Ron (Apr 9, 2020)

Does not matter if you are learning or not, the quality of the work is the thing to consider along with what you feel is fair and ethical as stated by Travisti. The market you are selling in will also determine pricing.
Good fortune with the venture.


----------



## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

What woodworking market are you considering competing with?


----------



## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Price it for what you want and can get. Let buyers decided what is fair, ethical, etc..
> 
> - TravisH


Yep. They'll decide with their wallets. I never try to compete with commercial options since my work is far superior. If someone wants a top-quality piece, they'll have to pay my price. I never bid low just to get the job.

As for the ethics of taking work from pros who do it for a living, that's one of the things they deal with. It's not my problem if a customer chooses me over them. They're not doing it because I undercut them. My prices are quite high, often higher than theirs.


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I think it's great that you want to consider the ethics of possibly undercutting a professional woodworker Njner.
As a so-called pro myself, no matter what you decide hobbyists will always be out there who will undercut pros prices because they want to or just don't know any better. 
Over the years I have customers come to me saying their neighbor will build their project for less than I pay for the materials, in my experience many want-to-be pros sell for less than their cost of the material. Why? because they don't need to make a profit and they want to show what they can build and be a nice guy/gal. This zero profit or building at a loss makes it impossible for a pro to compete if they wish to compete in the first place. 
Let your product speak for you by itself and price it so you can make money, you can't determine how you're affecting others and their businesses unless you know a specific business that your prices affect negatively then let your conscience be your guide.


----------



## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Don't worry about what other people are charging. Focus on your own costs and desired profit margin.

Chances are if you spend much time working for slim margins you'll get burned out pretty quick and will either raise prices or quit accepting jobs.

It's also unlikely you'll take much business away from professionals. People that can afford it pay extra to buy from an established pro with a good reputation. Branding works.

Don't be surprised if the pros undercut you. Try competing with Walzcraft on selling cabinet doors and see how well that goes.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I worked for many shops. I worked for a good shop that was one one of two shops that charged the least for cabinets. I took his pricing when I opened my shop…

If your slow you can't charge double. You need to find out what going rates are…


----------



## mitch_56 (Feb 7, 2017)

This becomes a billion word essay on free markets showing why the OP is….a nice person, concerned about fraud and fairness, but ultimately wrong, because it is a free market, and the OP does not have complete knowledge, and value comes from the buyer, not the seller.

TravisH has it right. Even if you make a Shaker piece which is inferior to one made by Christian Becksvoort in the eyes of every woodworker on this forum, a buyer might still prefer something about your piece to one made by a master like CB. That's the buyer's right, and it's not for you to say the buyer is wrong. To do so is pure vanity.

OP sounds like a nice person, who will deal honestly with buyers. That's all anyone can ask of you. Worrying about causing problems for "pros" sounds like an ego run amok. A pro is going to be far more skilled than you, have a far longer history in the industry than you, be far more productive than you, have a far greater range of skills than you, provide support such as consultations, installation, repairs years after the fact, have recommendations from past clients, be able to reproduce past pieces, will build pieces they don't enjoy building, etc, etc. If you truly can compete with a pro, you're probably not a hobbyist, and 99% of all buyers will easily be able to discern the difference between a real pro and a hobbyist.

In fact, as an ethical hobbyist, I'll bet the OP will be cautious of allowing a stray buyer, who is clearly in need of the services of a professional, from buying from the OP by accident.


----------



## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't think it matters if it was made by a jr. high shop student or a 50 year woodworking veteran. It's the end result and the finished product someone is buying. What would matter to me is the complexity of the joinery, the fit and finish, and the quality of the materials that went in to it. I know this contradicts my first sentence but I would also consider the maker and their reputation and willingness to stand behind the work if/when something does goes wrong. Let's say that it's a laser engraved Christmas ornament made out of a single piece of wood, not much could go wrong. On the other hand it could be a large farmhouse table with breadboard ends - lot's of opportunities for eventual failures.


----------



## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

If a professional or production shop is worried about a hobbyist banging out a couple pieces a year, they have serious problems.

I make furniture full time and couldn't care less if a hobbyist "steals" one or two pieces. In the end those people were probably never my customer anyway.

I actually give advice/help hobbyist from time to time. You never know when you might need them or the opposite.


----------



## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

After a few pieces sold you probably won't be undercutting anyone, you'll want due compensation for the aggravation of dealing with customers and the time put into each piece. And if you're cheap, friends and family will line up to take advantage.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I don't care abut a hobby woodworker except when they ruin a job and we get called to repair their mistakes. A lot of times the home owner doesnt have money to fix the repairs. Sometimes there major. You do the best you can to make things work and move on to the next one.


----------



## Njner (Sep 13, 2016)

Thanks again it's been enlightening. I especially appreciated the pro perspective. I've had this thought in the back of my mind for a while and it was fun to get your thoughts.

I believe in free-market setting prices but I also believe it comes with some ethical and moral responsibilities beyond simply "caveat emptor". Even Friedman constrained free-market ideology with ethical behavior.

"There is one and only one social responsibility of business - to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits *so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception or fraud*." 
-Milton Friedman


----------



## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Consider that the "pro" woodworker is (or should be) selling a Rolls Royce and pricing accordingly. A Hobbyist is selling a Chevy and also should be pricing accordingly. Some buyers will love the styling of the Chevy over the Rolls and pay up. It's all based on reputation and if the Rolls falls in quality, the price they can command will also slide. It really comes down to the discrimination of the buyer and their perceived value. There will always be a market for Rolls, even if there are a lot more Chevys being produced.

The wonders of a market based economy 8^)


----------



## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

As as hobbyist, you might be willing to do a one-time custom job that a pro would not want to take on. There is value in this as well.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I think the OP summed it up well

"The objective is to get to practice my hobby without breaking the bank. And having the additional funds would allow me to do more projects. You know, the actual hobby part of it!"

So get what you can to offset the cost of materials or even make some money above that. In the end, between material cost and what I perceive will be a very low hourly rate don't worry about it and let the chips fall where they may. Unless you hire several people to pound out work you aren't even a blip on the radar. Of course if you do hire staff you won't undercut anyone. I fantasize that I will one day be so good that people commission me to build fine pieces. In reality I am an old guy having a new fun hobby and measure success by the skills I am learning.


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

When people buy something, they expect descent if not perfect quality no matter what they pay.

So you will find out that you will have to be making things to a higher quality or your client will complain. 
This means because of your inexperience you will be putting in more time than a professional until you learn more. But you won't be able to charge for all that time to be competitive. This is your sacrifice to learn.

You should always charge what the product is worth no matter your time. 
Just because you are inexperienced doesn't mean you should charge less, as long as you are supplying the same product as anyone else would supply.

Bottom line is don't worry about undercutting a pro, but worry more about charging what something is worth. Try not to leave money on the table.
When I first started, I would do the same thing (charge low) because of my inexperience. But when building the product I put in all the extra time trying to make it perfect. The result was a nice product that I didn't get paid enough for.

So in summery, build it to customers expectations, 
and charge as much as it would cost if they had to buy it somewhere else. 
If they can't get it anywhere else for less, than there is no reason for you to go lower.


----------



## Newbie17 (Feb 20, 2017)

> After a few pieces sold you probably won t be undercutting anyone, you ll want due compensation for the aggravation of dealing with customers and the time put into each piece. And if you re cheap, friends and family will line up to take advantage.
> 
> - Woodknack


This. Once the demand goes up, you'll raise the prices more and more until you find the sweet spot where the projects are sold as you make them and there isn't a 5 year backlog of pre-orders.


----------



## bigJohninvegas (May 25, 2014)

So I am more of a hobbyist woodworker, and I too struggled early on pricing my work.
I also have professional woodworker friends, and not only are they not at all worried about me taking there work. Most are so busy they welcome it. And give me any help/advice they can to make sure I do it right. 
My skill level has improved over the years, and most things I can handle and do a real professional job.
But I am honest with my customer. When I am asked to do a job that maybe I can do well, but my friend that is a pro will do it much better. I will tell them just that. And also I won't be able to do it much cheaper. 
There is also plenty of projects that I am just not interested in doing. #1 real popular right now, river tables. 
I am still working 40+ hours a week, and don't get a lot of shop time. So most projects I accept are smaller. 
Send the big stuff to my friends. 


> And if you re cheap, friends and family will line up to take advantage.
> 
> - Woodknack


This is so true, and I experience it first had all the time. 
Don't get me wrong, I willingly do friends and family pricing. Can't tell you how much I have given away, or sold at cost. and enjoyed all of it. but then they say hey, your good. How about building me this, and then get upset when I say ok it will cost this. 
And we all have the guy who wants you to make something, and when you prepare a fair quote they answer with I can buy it for half that at the furniture store, or the other guy will do it for lumber cost plus $100. 
All I can say to them is you should go buy it then.



> Consider that the "pro" woodworker is (or should be) selling a Rolls Royce and pricing accordingly. A Hobbyist is selling a Chevy and also should be pricing accordingly. Some buyers will love the styling of the Chevy over the Rolls and pay up. I
> - splintergroup


I love it, I am at the point where I build a fair amount of Rolls Royce's, still more Chevys though. And there have been my share of VW's too, lol. 
And you will be amazed while most of the VW's go into the burn barrel. Many will gladly buy it. But I have never tried to pass the Chevy off as a rolls.



> Wanting to get some thoughts on pricing. I m not looking for a typical time and materials formula. I m having an ethical quandary.
> 
> My dilemma is that I don t feel it s proper for someone with only a few months or years to price their projects at the same level as someone with drastically more experience. But at the same time, I wouldn t want to undercut them either.
> 
> ...


Like I had said above, my pro friends are not worried about being under cut. Remember they are selling Rolls Royce's. 
I try to be fair, but have sold to low plenty. I spend a lot of time at the Lathe. This year has been a year of Kitchen gadgets for me. Pepper Mills, Coffee Scoops, and handles for everything. And a few non kitchen things too. A table lamp was my favorite. 
So you give the 1st couple Pepper Mills away at half what you see them sell for on Etsy, or at a craft show because maybe they were not shaped the best, or you didn't like the finish. And you used free wood that you got around town. Then after you made a few, and started buying good turning blanks that add to the cost. Your Chevys turned into Rolls Royce quality. Good luck raising the price. So be careful with the starting out price.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

It's interesting to see how pricing and parts and labor don't match up. When I was a Cub Scout leader, there was a design for a bird house that the boys could build. I bought cedar fence pickets and made the components, which didn't take too long with a RAS. After that, I tried to sell some of them at a craft fair, for $6. I had $1.10 in materials, and I made 32 of them in an hour. I sold one at the craft fair, and my brother-in-law said that he'd never make those bird houses, because the one I managed to sell, I had a long conversation with the buyer about whether a bird could live or lay eggs in it! Then, one of the secretaries where I worked had a daughter who owned a boutique. She bought all of those birdhouses for $6 a pop and the daughter sold them for $12! At $1.10 per bird house, I made $4.90 each. Making 32 in an hour, (I timed it) meant that I was making $4.90X32=$156.8 per hour just by walking out to the garage and cutting some wood and then nailing it together. Of course, I could only make them twice a year, as that was the demand. If I could have had a distribution scheme, etc., there could have been real money in it. One needs a way to distribute a product like that, and I had no inclination, really, as I was working as an engineer at the time. If anyone sees a way to take this to a profitable enterprise, have at it. It's just like the US-made clothespin industry.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I think it's important a new woodworker be consistent with his prices. The reason is you would not want your customers finding something you made for someone else costs less. 
Nobody like to feel they were taken. 
So be consistent. 
Let excellence be your normal. 
Good luck


----------



## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I try to charge the going rate for the things I sell. One of my woodworking club members sells his stuff for way less than I do. His stuff is really inferior to what myself and others sell. I try to help give him advice every now and then. He just doesn't have an eye for detail and finish which is hard to teach.


----------



## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

This is a common thing - thinking we can sell things or get commissions to pay for or justify machines. Making a hobby into a business isn't always a good thing and ww'ing in particular. For ever guy like CWW there are a thousand who wish they could build furniture for a living.

That said, it's a difficulty but not impossible undertaking. I've thought about it when I retire, but not for money, just to have a more interesting purpose. I think you have to figure out marketing based on your demographics, and work on a website and Facebook page. General exposure helps, too like displaying your work at an art or farmers market. I know a couple guys who bought a sawmill and built a business selling rustic furniture just on Facebook.

But first, you need a portfolio. People need to see what you can do. Get to work building a few pieces that your marketing research indicates might be in demand.

I can tell you this, to compete with commercial cabinet shops, you're talking a whole 'nther game machine and shop wise. I worked a little in a cab shop so I've seen the process. With cabs you'll have to get into spray painting - a huge leaning curve. If you farm out painting you've lost all your profit. But you can do one off custom cabs or built ins, large tables, etc. I know a couple guys working out if their home shops doing this and making a living, but it's feast or famine. The other issue with cabs is installation.

You never know till you try, at $50/hr + material x 20% it might be tough to get work.


----------



## avsmusic1 (Jul 10, 2016)

I think there is enough pro feedback here that you're conscience is clean

Id dive in and see if there is even enough reason for to be concerned. If you get 6mo in and are churning things out in such a way that you feel it's time to circle back to this then fair enough


----------



## Cnes (Aug 17, 2018)

Maybe pricing items just to keep your hobby afloat will be enough, to cover materials and save for fancy tools that are more enjoyable to work with


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The question is: Can you do work that is as good as or better than what a professional can do? If the answer is yes, then charge what it's worth.


----------



## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

I looked at your 2 projects that you have posted and they seem fine. I would suggest charging a price that is fair to both you and the customer. Preferably a price that is good enough for you to make it again and again because if you make it nice and the price is good that will likely get around and someone/s else will want you to make them one too and even if it's a year later they won't want to pay double just because your "more experienced" now. Don't worry what others charge, stuff is only worth what folks will pay anyway


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I say let the market dictate what is fair to both you and the customer. Me, I am not really up to quality gift phase let alone commissioned work.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> The question is: Can you do work that is as good as or better than what a professional can do? If the answer is yes, then charge what it s worth.
> 
> - MrRon


Who tells you your work is the same or better?

Over all the years on the forums, I found most hobby woodworkers take three times as long as professionals and think they should get paid more because of it…

Most don't pay taxes on the work, carry insurance, no overhead,

Non of the pros I've worked with ovef the last 37 were youtube trained..


----------



## MikeJ70 (Jul 18, 2018)

I think it's a fair question, but truthfully do you really think as an inexperienced hobbyist you are competing with a pro? It's a tough business to get into, especially part-time. I think if you are just making things for family and friends, charge what ever price you think is fair to both you and the person you are making it for. If yours are like mine, they are not going to a professional wood worker to have their furniture made. They are going to the big box stores or local furniture store so that is who you are competing with.

If you are making craft type items like the ones in your projects and selling them online or at a craft show then charge what ever price you can. If they sell out quickly then the next-go-round charge more. If they don't sell then you need to lower your price or find something the public is willing to buy.

If you are wanting to take on commissions for larger items like tables, chairs or cabinets, then you are entering into a different realm. How are you going to market yourself or are you going to just rely on word of mouth? How are your sales skills? Are you prepared to put in the time to design the piece, figure out a materials list and cost and then add in your labor, present it to the client and get denied because they can't believe that it would cost that much? You will also have to deal with deadlines. If you are also working a full time job, it can be very difficult to deliver on time. Speaking from experience here.

I am not trying to discourage you. Just make sure you think this through and be selective on what and how much you take on. The last thing you want is for it to turn into a job and become a burden instead of a hobby.

Good Luck,


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I keep seeing insurance as a component of overhead. I you are working in someone's home they may or should want you to have insurance. If you are just dropping an item off then not so much. If you employ anyone, oh God you need lots of insurance. If you are banging out items to sell or commissioned pieces yourself or with a family member in the backyard shop you won't likely sue yourself. You are either no overhead or full overhead and going from one to the other is difficult and expensive. Enjoy the no overhead while you can but no longer than that.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

As soon as your looking to make a profit, it's a job.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

And a job without profit is a donation.


----------



## 1thumb (Jun 30, 2012)

Why wouldn't you get paid as much as you can? Don't undercut yourself


----------



## bobfromsanluis (Jul 23, 2016)

One of my underlying beliefs is about customer perception; sure, there are plenty of people who gladly pay for the cheapest thing that suits their needs without consideration of all of the factors that go into pricing, but I am firmly convinced that most people shy away from a product or service that is priced too low, fearing that it is somehow inferior, the old adage "you get what you pay for" being the driver in that equation. As your skill increases, as you refine your product (and whoa to anyone starting out that thinks their product cannot be improved), and as your productivity increases, like was suggested before, you will find the "sweet spot" of having your product priced so you make a profit, but don't have it sit around not selling for long periods of time. Having had my own retail store for some years, having product not sell but taking up shelf space does you no favors. Scouting out the markets in your area, comparing the craftsmanship of other producers to your own should help you in determining the pricing of your own wares. I also like the story of a famous artist being cajoled into drawing a portrait (if I'm remembering the story correctly)- he sketched out the drawing pretty quickly and presented it to the subject and put a price on it- the "customer" was taken aback at the quoted price and mentioned how it didn't seem to take the artist much time to produce it, the artist replied that he had a lifetime of training and painting/drawing, and that is how he arrived at his pricing. Very few of us can demand a top dollar for our products, but selling yourself too cheaply does you as much harm in the long run as one might fear they are doing in competing with seasoned pros. Be confident in your work, and allow your pricing to reflect that confidence. Above all, enjoy the crafting, if you're not enjoying yourself, you're just working at a job you probably don't enjoy.


----------



## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

If you find a niche, charge for what it'll bear. With my Hope Chests and Aromatic Cedar Chests, I go for quality, not quick and cheap. I'm higher priced verses the local furniture stores and other area woodworkers. Only offering one style for each. There is a market for quality.

With my urns, I'm higher priced and a different version then what the funeral homes can get the through a whole distributor. But I offer the urns on consignment, give free delivery in a fifty mile radius, and monthly billing with sales. Giving me a advantage.

With the other woodworking projects and restorations I get. I sorta wished I wouldn't get them. They get in the way of the type of woodworking projects I'd like to do. It helps you to know what others charge and the type of work they do (quality wise and type). The free market allows you to charge your price and not worry, if you don't get a sale. If your cheap, you get a reputation of cheap (cheap price and cheap quality). This becomes your reputation and then it's difficult to change your reputation.


----------



## OzarkSawdust (Dec 14, 2018)

I had the same thoughts when I started scroll saw work. I didn't think I was good enough to sell pieces…then to sell pieces more than the wood cost. A friend turned me into a "Puzzle Zombie" and after a couple of months I decided I would try selling some ( to thin the heard mostly) at the craft shows in the Rio Grande Valley where we normally winter in our 5th wheel. I priced them $5 less than he gets for them in a high tourist area of Carolina Beach Boardwalk in NC. My customers consisted of us old retired folk "Winter Texans" at RV park craft shows with tons of other stuff for sale. I started with puzzle animals, and they went over very well. I also made some crosses and started a couple of portraits. Due to the heavy virus in the valley and all the shows being cancelled for the season we stayed in MO this winter, but if things are better next season I'll raise my prices a little. I have more experience and produce a better product now.

I now consider myself a Scroll Saw Artist as I've progressed in scope and quality, and won 2 first places and a 2nd place on work I showed at the fair last Aug. When I see someone post their work on line I enlarge the photo and look at the details. In my little corner of the woodworking world I see that I do much better work than a lot of folks…but there are a lot of folks that are way better than I! That gives me confidence that I'm progressing in my craft, and a goal to become better. When I receive complements from those I consider to be masters I'm inspired to learn more and keep working on my craft. Now I'm branching out on my woodworking so I'm at the bottom of the heap compared to the type of work most of you do here…but I will get better!

I' rambled on for way too long…but I can't tell you "do this and charge that" . I can only convey my own journey and maybe provide you with questions and situations to ask yourself. As for what to charge I can say this…right now is the least you'll pay for an Ozark Sawdust original…

You can see some of my work at : ozarksawdust.com


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

So you want to be a furniture/cabinet maker.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

It is what it is and always will be.

As long as there are woodworkers, shade tree mechanics and so on, there will always be those offering alternatives to what the professionals offer. That even applies to legal matters. The simple of it is, if it were not so, many would get nothing (help or product). As noted, that even includes "purchasing justice" (generally, it is a purchased thing (it IS a business)).

While it is true many lacking expertise damage others, it is also true many professionals do too. The law books make that fact, abundantly, clear. However, it is also true many who could not afford the services of those who seek permission to work from government are well served by those who do not run a business.

On that other side of the coin, fifty years ago, I made very nice and very unique mirrors and things. I sweated getting even fifty bucks for one. I should have been getting a few or even four hundred. No professional competed with me.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

And as many alternatives go there will be crappy work offered at professional prices.

Some can and some can't.

As I've stated before , we as professionals have fixed many jobs done by so called amateur pros….


----------



## 75c (Jan 23, 2021)

Not sure I want to live in a country where everyone goes to work they all make the same amount the state owns all the real estate. There are two classes of people the extremely Rich and everyone else. . And they have purges ever once in awhile. I was never a fan of Stalinist Russia.

Let free enterprise rule.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

True, but that requires confidence, which, often, comes with time.

When I started out, I sold mirrors for about $45.00, but the should have sold for a few hundred. In time, I came to understand the worth of the things I made was as much or more than those others made.


----------



## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I'd pick a professional everytime.Amatuers tend to overpriced their work…

Customers think they get more for less, in most cases they get less for more…


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

There are also two types of consumers, one will pay for top quality and the other will take on some risk to save a buck or two. The struggling amature can fill that void and probably needs the education of hard knocks too. The market will figure all this out and correct for it.

I can remember my first business. I was making $10.00 an hour at the time and thought I knew everything. I mistakenly thought that if I charged $25 an hour I would be making twice as much. I failed and went back to a national company and learned how the entire market worked in my field. I went back into the same type business in 1994 and never looked back.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm a amateur woodworking in truest sense. I do it for the love working with my hands and wood.
And it's true my work is so expensive nobody can afford it . So I don't worry about selling 
My last craft show I heard couples discuss my work a few declaring they could make my offering at home for less.
The American sprit was alive and well. This was probably 10 years ago give or take.


----------



## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm pretty good at wood working. Not a pro, because I don't make a living at it. One carving tool chest I built, one of the other carvers said that if I ever wanted to sell it, to let him know. I was feeling generous, and told him $400. He looked like I had kicked his puppy. You go to Gerstner or Woodcraft, they sell the red oak KIT for more than that. So, I told him to buy a kit, instead, and build it. Whenever people in the class ask about a chest, I tell them that it depends on what exactly they want, but go look at the Gerstner line for expected cost. I can make a "cheap" Baltic Birch chest for less money in components than Harbor Freight gets for that "dandy" little red oak made-in-China thing they sell, but just barely. And theirs is already built!


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Regarding puppies and people kicking them: It's amazing people think their wages in their forty to one hundred twenty thousand a year jobs are reasonable, though they only have to show up and provide labor, but not the building, utilities, tools and equipment, job solicitation, material acquisition, design work, advertising and so on, but think even a hobbyist handling all the things above isn't worth even thirty-five an hour.

I'm no longer a pro. I work for fun now. Still, I have thousands of dollars in equipment and tools in an eighteen hundred square foot, heated and cooled shop. Though I give good deals, if I enjoy a job (challenge, etc.) or like the person I'm dealing with, things I sell reflects the cost of ALL my tools and equipment, just like a business would do when pricing their products.

Reminds me of a guy who asked me to help him with something related to what I used to do for a living, before returning to sawdust making, since I had in the past. My response was simple - would he drop everything in his life to help me? He admitted he wouldn't, and knew the answer to his question without me saying anything more on the matter.

So all the above should go for people hiring pro's or amateur alike.


----------



## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

> Regarding puppies and people kicking them: It s amazing people think their wages in their forty to one hundred twenty thousand a year jobs are reasonable, though they only have to show up and provide labor, but not the building, utilities, tools and equipment, job solicitation, material acquisition, design work, advertising and so on, but think even a hobbyist handling all the things above isn t worth even thirty-five an hour.
> 
> - Kelly


It surprises me that you make the case for the hobbyist getting not $35/hr for their skills but conclude that people making $120K/yr are essentially over paid. I spent 4 years in college, and have been an engineer for 32 years. As a Sr. Project manager, my currrent responsibility is roughly $60MM of a $300MM project. I'm responsible for all aspects, from design, to costs, to schedule, everything. I don't remember the last time I worked less than 50 hours/week. Yes, I am well compensated, but projects of this size aren't something that you can manage a week after graduating from and on-line course.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

It surprises me you put words in my mouth that were not in my post. Guess that wasn't covered in your education.

By the way, you are not the only one here who worked in engineering (NUWES, NTS), put in fifty and more hours a week, or were well compensated for work you did.

I, like millions of others, was just an employee, before I became self employed. Before running a business, I never spent a dime on other than my own transportation to get to work. It was all just "profit" and taxes.

Someone self employed, even hobbyists, has to cover all the expenses you and I didn't have to worry about, when working for someone else. Every hobbyist, just like a full time business, has to invest in their own shops, tools and equipment.

A measly thirty-five an hour is nothing, when one considers what some of the hobbyist have invested in making you an end table, shelf, turning, carving or what have you. My goal was, no less than four hundred a day, without employees. I didn't always make that, but did often enough, and not one customer complained. Why would it offend you so much?

Then there is the comedy of it all: Many an individual with a degree would balk at paying me even thirty-five an hour in wages, but had no qualms about paying me eighty an hour, as long as I bid the job.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I once ran a crew of 25 guys and half of them could speak English. Try and top that


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

[can't]


----------



## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I once ran a crew of 25 guys and half of them could speak English. Try and top that
> 
> - Aj2


So you were a foreman?


----------



## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> I once ran a crew of 25 guys and half of them could speak English. Try and top that
> 
> - Aj2
> 
> ...


----------



## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

Not sure what we are topping?
Size of crew, more than half to speak english, less?

All we know for sure is that roofing is known to the state of California to cause cancer.


----------



## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

and breathing, and. . . .


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

One problem is; pros can buy their lumber/supplies/tools much cheaper than amateurs can. If your work is as good as a pros, then you would need to charge more than the pro. But on the other hand, the pro has overhead costs that factor into the final cost. It would appear the pros cost and the amateurs cost would cancel each other out. Bottom line; charge whatever you think is fair.


----------



## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

Pros being able to buy materials cheaper than amateurs is not universally true.

That trade only price discounts have narrowed or closed with the explosion of the internet and expansion of the marketplace in general.

On a recent job of ours replacing an expensive recycling center from Europe , our factory supply chain exporter was more expensive than our preferred domestic/local hardware distributor. By around 40%. And Wayfair was cheaper than them by around 20%. Which was a real problem for us on several levels.


----------



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

By "pro", that is to mean someone who is self employed who has to provide his own tools, materials, utilities, etc. An amateur is also self employed, provides his own tools, materials, utilities, etc. There is another "pro" or at least calls himself a pro. He works for someone and is paid a wage. He uses tools provided by his employer which is usually set up to provide a certain operation as in assembly line production;(kitchen cabinets for example). For the sake of discussion, we must only consider the first 2. I have seen work by an amateur that is as good or better than that of a pro. Likewise, I see work of so called "pros" that should be enough to take away his license to practice. I can only describe a "pro" as someone who does woodworking for a living and doesn't rely on mass production tools or methods to weave his art. Based on this, "pro" is simply a title bestowed on someone who does it for a living. The amateur doesn't rely on his craft to make a living; therefore, I would deem "pro" and "amateur" as distinctively different and I would place more emphasis on the craftsmanship of the amateur, there being good and bad. amateurs. I have done work for others, but I would never consider myself a pro. I make for myself and myself only. When someone wants me to make something for them, I don't know what to charge them. I usually charge enough to cover materials and utilities and maybe a little extra to buy a new tool. I may have gotten off track a bit. When I say "amateur", I really mean "hobbyist"


----------

