# Stanley Bedrock vs. Lie-Nelson



## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

So, as a handplane novice (and a woodworker novice) and recently inspired by Garrett Hack's handplane book, I was thinking about investing in a good smoothing plane. Curiously though, the #604 Stanley Bedrock planes on Ebay are more expensive than a new Lie-Nelson #4 smoother. Other than the nostalgia, and the potential appreciation in value of an antique Bedrock, why would someone choose one of these Stanley planes over a well made LN?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

No other reason than collector value. The L-N are every bit as good
in most respects and superior in some.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I have both a Stanley Bedrock #604 and a Lie Nielsen #4. My Bedrock is quite old. It has the curved sides where newer Bedrocks have the squared sides like my Lie Nielsen.

My Bedrock needs a good tune up and the iron needs sharpening so a good head-to-head comparison is not possible at this time. The only thing I can say for certain is that the LN is heavier and, in my opinion, that is a good thing.


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

If you listen to Paul Sellers ( http://lumberjocks.com/topics/27774 ) and I can't think of one good reason not too (he's forgotten more about planes than I'll ever know), a well tuned Stanley Bailey # 4 is every bit as good as either the Bedrock or the LN and the SB # 4 1/2 is even better. At least that's my take on his comments.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

I happen to prefer Bedrock style planes and so that is what I buy. I have LNs and Stanley Bedrocks as well as older Stanleys. I would agree that you can take a pre-ww2 Stanley and tune it so that it will peform very well and also do it without the use of premium blades (another of Paul's pet peves). But there is something really nice about the quality and machining of a LN plane. In addition to these factors, I feel there may be an edge from a resale perspective. You should be able to get your money out of the LN/Bedrock planes in the future.

Going the Stanley (or similar quality old plane) route will cost you less money in the long run. But you will need to know what planes to select, how to identify issues with them, and how to resolve the issues. You will also need to be able to sharpen your plane blades and have an approprate bench to use them effectively.


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## saddletramp (Mar 6, 2011)

Wayne, I only mentioned Paul's views on the subject because I felt that it might be more cost effective for Rob, as a novice, to start out with a Bailey. I, as a novice, am well aware that you also, along with Mads, Bertha, Don, Div, ad infinitum are eminently more qulified than I to dispense info re: hand planes. I just wanted to point Rob to an expert opinion on a less expensive first plane.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

At even (or close) money, I'd buy a LN, but for $30-$50 you can often get a pretty nice Bailey. If you want a mint plane that's nearly ready to roll out of the box, LN is a great choice if you don't mind spending the money.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Bob, I agree with you. I'm not sure if we (crew listed above) are more qualified, but certinly are more likely to open up and share our opinions. It depends on where you want to jump in. Some people may want premium stuff, like a new golfer who buys the best clubs on the day he shows up for his first lesson. Not a big issue if you have the money and are sure your going to follow-through on learning to golf. However, many times you you struggle and give up the items falling to disuse. You then end up taking a loss on the clubs. IMO it would pay off to read a few more books on handplanes and watch a few of Chris Schwarz, Rob Cosman (dude irritates me for some unknown reason) or David Charlesworth's videos. I also belive Paul is going to teach some handplane classes in the US. Sounded like he has an interesting cirriculum where you get an ebay plane in a box and go through setting it up beginning with opening the box.

With the less expensive planes you have to know what your looking for. If you get a bad quality plane or a plane with an issue, you could likely be turned off and think that planes do not work. One advantage of a quality new plane such as a Veritas or LN is the plane will be pretty much ready to go out of the box.

On the planes, consider a 4 1/2 or 604 1/2 for a smoother. 5 for doing roughing and 7 or 7 jointer for flattening boards. There are also arguments for considering a low angle jack plane such as the LN 62 or the veritas equivalent. They are pretty versitile and you can use them for a variety of tasks. Somewhere along the line you will want to get an adjustable low angle block plane as well.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm not an expert either, but I was in the same situation as you and this was my thinking:

Did I really want to spend $200-$300 on a LN plane as a novice, when many experienced hand-planers on Lumberjocks were saying that a well-tuned Bailey #4 would do the job nearly or totally as well? What if I decided after a while that using a plane really wasn't my cup of tea?

It's only been a few months, and I've already got a nice little starter collection of Stanley Baileys in various sizes. For $20-$40 each, and some time cleaning and sharpening, I've got planes that not only work beautifully, but are great conversation pieces as well.

I'll probably buy some expensive new planes some day, but I'm thoroughly convinced that getting some old planes was the right way for me to get started.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

you guys make some good points about getting Bailey planes. I have my eye on a few on Ebay; I'm just wary about what I'm getting; I've read through Paul Seller's posts (which are awesome); and maybe just need to take the plunge.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Look for a Stanley plane with a 1910 patent date, either single or along with two 1902 patent dates on it. Look to ensure the plane has all parts, the blade is still long, there are not cracks or serious pitting. Broken handles and knobs can be repaired. Check the mouth of the plane to ensure there are not any chips or other issues.

Something similar to this type 11, though we had a discussion about why you would want to avoid corriguated sole planes this morning. Note how the photos show all key details of the plane. The plane can be dirty and not as clean as this one. But it shows you the kind of plane to look for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Type-11-Stanley-Bailey-No-4C-SMOOTH-PLANE-/150620101685?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2311a85c35


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Rob - If you expand your list of potential brands to include names like Millers Falls, Record, Sargent VBM, Union, Winchester, and Keen Kutter, you'll increase you chances of getting a great plane at a great price. It's always a matter of preference, but I've come to prefer some of the Record and Millers Falls planes. I'm no expert either, but did put together some info about picking old planes that might be helpful.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Knotscott, my thinking on recommendation for limiting the search type 11 to type 13 ish Bailey was tying to easily get a quality plane. One you have handled and worked with a quality plane, it is easier to find quality planes from other manufactures.

Rob, one key factor is how much research you want to do before buying your first plane. As Knotscott points out there are lots of good options if you know what your looking for. But takes some knowledge.

To augement Knotscott, stay away from Dunlap, Fulton, Handyman, 50's and later planes of any brand…


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

thanks for the advice guys. I pulled the trigger and bought a Stanley Bailey #4, type 12, and a Millers Falls 90 B off of Ebay last night. Shipping was more than the plane price! Both need a bit of rust work, but the mouth seems to be in good shape on both, and no visible cracks or repairs to the body. I guess it is kind of a rite of passage to buy an old plane and restore it. Next plane I'm in the hunt for will be a good block plane with an adjustable mouth…


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Way to go. Stanley #65 for the win on block planes….. This is one I got for $25 or $30 in an antique mall…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

so I tend to listen to these guys, but this is one topic there is not a concenses on. There are more threads than you can poke a stick at with this question. My take is this, if you are new to woodworking or hand planing, a stanley will work, if you want better (better being a subjective term meaning more expensive) and like shiney go LN, if your not into shiney and new, go bedrock. I'm a stanley guy, but its about dollars. I can buy 4 #4's for the price of a broken bedrock.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have tools in two different sides of the country. The fancy 
planes are all in one place, but I can do good work in the other
with the ragtag group of old Bailey's I've got there.

My secret: I know how to tune planes and sharpen irons - and
I'm doubled-up on the trusty old Makita wet wheel waterstone
sharpener.

I'd recommend investing in good sharpening gear early on. A 
lot of the frustrations of hand tools are greatly reduced if
you have the tools to make the irons truly sharp.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Wayne; what about a Stanley 9 1/2 block plane?


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

They are good planes. It is a standard angle plane (25 deg). Many people (myself included) prefer a low angle plane (12.5 deg) such as a 60 1/2 or a 65. On these you want to try to get an older one. There are ton's of recent ones out there.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Congrats on the acquisition. The Bailey #4 type 12 should make for a nice plane. The MF 90B is approximately the same size as the Bailey #4. You'll probably enjoy the restoration…a couple of hours can yield a dramatic change. You'll learn a lot, and it is indeed a rite of passage.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Let us know how your thoughts when you get these. I don't have an LN, but just bought my first bedrock 604.


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## Spotcheck (Jun 26, 2011)

FWIW - I have no vested interest in this guy - but I am a very happy customer. I do not have the skills nor the patience to properly tune up a plane

There is a fella that goes by tablesawtom. He routinely posts planes for sale on the woodnet forum. He gets em, and rehabs them - but only ones that are in good shape to begin with. All the parts and pieces are in good shape. He grinds the soles virtually dead flat, and the sides are gound virtually dead square to the sole. Many of them he cleans up completely - including rehab to the japanning. He also will grind your planes.

I recently got a Keen Kutter K7C from him. It's not the KK edition - its the real deal K. The first one I got from him was a Stanley #7 T11 which, incredibly, the post office was able to break - a clean break at the mouth. He worked diligently to get the problem all taken care of - at which time he had decided to move off some of his hoard of Keen Kutter corrugateds, so I upgraded.

It's on the wall beside a bunch of LN planes. I wanted a big plane, but don't have enough need to spend the bucks on a new LN - this one is great.


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## rogfos (Jan 22, 2017)

I have some stanley bedrock planes . Has anyone tried to use a lie nielsen frog on a stanley bedrock ? Or could it be modified some to fit ? It would be nice to have a high angle frog for the bedrock .


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Knotscott hit on a prime point. The resto will teach you more about the plane's workings than just buying a high end item.
Bill


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## rogfos (Jan 22, 2017)

The bedrocks are great planes . I use the old stanley blades . I also have a replacement Hock and Veritas blade . They are thicker and seem to hold an edge longer . The Hock is o1 steel the Veritas is the pm v11 . I enjoy cleaning and tuning up the old planes . I like the ones with broken knobs and totes . Then you can make your own . This does take away some of the value if that is what you want .


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I started out with a Stanley 60 1/2 then discovered a L.N. 102 and started collecting a bunch of working Stanleys and a few L.N.s.
After learning how to tune and sharpen, started to replace all my Irons with the Veritas PMV-11 replacements from Lee Valley. So now added a few new Veritas Planes and have decided that the only way for myself is the Veritas with PMV-11 blades! That said there are a few special planes that are and will be favorites.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I am not a hand tool expert by no means. Further, I am not a tool guy to have tools, so for me i want it to work and work well. The old ones work great but I got to say after getting my first LN, boy never looked back. I've got a good stable of them now and don't regret the investment. They will be spot on out of the box and if you ever want to sell one, they keep their value. Just bought my son his first couple for christmas this past year.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

I think you made the right choice. By the old Stanley, clean it up, tune it up and get it working nicely. Then, and only then, make the decision on what to get next. Heck, buy and old bedrock, then by a LN or Veritas. See what you think. I bought a bunch (3,4,4.5,5,6,7) type 11 corrugated Stanley planes. I am very happy with them. I will be purchasing a new Veritas medium shoulder plane, as well as a LN 62 low angle jack with multiple irons to fill the holes in. This is what worked for me, your mileage may vary…


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

Not much difference between the two in my eyes, honestly. LN is simply an improved version of the bedrocks. If Stanley still cared about quality the same way they used to, I'm sure the Bedrocks they'd be making now would be just as good.


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## BulldogLouisiana (Apr 12, 2015)

A lumberjock is so fast they can leap 6 years lickety click.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

Every old plane you get and get it to your liking you will learn something new. Once you get one usually you want more and more


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

It's interesting seeing this thread come back to life after 6 years… I got and rehabed two very nice #4 Stanley Baileys of early 1900 vintage, used them for awhile but eventually started using a bevel up LV jack plane for almost everything. Being able to adjust the mouth easily and change attack angle by simply swapping out plane irons just made it so convenient to use…I got great results from the vintage planes but you have to spend the time setting them up perfectly; perfect mouth opening, perfect chipbreaker setting etc. I found the LV plane much more forgiving and easier to set. 
Still mostly use the bevel up jack for everything but also have a standard, bevel down LV #4; great plane too, I find it a lot easier to use than the vintage planes, mainly because I can play around with the mouth opening easily and much quicker find the sweet spot setting. Still have a number of restored Stanley planes but they are mostly relegated to the collection shelf rather than the daily use shelf.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

Manitario made a good point, in that the LN and Veritas planes don't need any work prior to using, whereas the older planes will. I have a mix of old and new planes, the oldest being my grandfather's #3 and the newest is a Veritas LA #4. Also in the mix is a bronze LN #4 and a new, plastic handle, Stanley Bailey #4, and an old Stanley Bailey 4 1/2 (and others). My point is that when I put a new Hock blade in the various Baileys, and tuned them up a bit, they all work just fine. The 4 1/2 took a lot of tuning, but I finally got it up to speed.

The first one I reach for if I want best results is the Veritas Low Angle smoother. The LN bronze is my next favorite.


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