# Where to spend the money???



## nakmuay (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi guys, sorry if this topic has been done before but my attempts at searching for something along the same lines failed badly.

I have a back ground in aircraft structures, but I've always wanted to be a bit more creative so i've finally saved enough money to set up a small furniture making workshop. Having a back ground in metal rather than wood, so I was wondering where I should spent some money for the high end tools, and where I could cut corners on the lower end brand tools.

My research points towards table saws and planes as 100% worth the high end price, but what about things like routers and bits, miter saws, chisels, jointers, etc.
Thanks guys


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

It depends a good deal the sort of furniture you intend to make. Perhaps you might want to find some pictures on the internet of what you intend to do now and what you want to do in the future? Some types of work require specialized tools that are hard to find used and if that's the case, you'll want to put the money there.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm buying all good tools used (at least what's appropriate/available). I wouldn't consider buying "lower end". I don't own anything with the name Ryobi on it and only buy Craftsman if it's at least 40-50 years old. Take the money saved on buying used tools and buy even more stuff. I'm kind of wonder what kind of budget you have. A lot of folks come around here and only want to spend a few hundred. I myself am not sitting on a lump of cash, but I just have a large monthly budget that goes toward tools.

I guess it depends if you want to be a production shop or just a hobby shop. The equipment comes in all sizes. What I may consider a "good" contractor saw, may only fit in a hobby show, or as a spare machine in a production shop.

I think when it comes to table saws (excluding the SawStop technology), you aren't going to find anything better new today than you would if you purchased a $300 50 year old Unisaw off the back of someone's truck, or even a Powermatic. Also note, the new Taiwanese and Chinese brands are knocking out some good products. I know someone who owns a brand name and orders equipment from time-to-time and the stuff he has in stock is great…and looks just like everyone's else's because it comes out of the same factory.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Welcome to the fun. That is a really broad topic, but I'll try to keep things brief.

First off, I always advise people to buy their large power tools (jointer, tablesaw, planer, bandsaw, etc.) used for the best bang for the buck. There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying new, but you can save some bucks and get some good old quality machinery if you hang around craigslist for a while. If you want to read it, here is a blog I wrote on the topic - Why I buy used power tools. This goes for many used hand tools as well such as chisels and especially handplanes of all sorts. Buying new will save you some hassle, but used will save you money. In the end it is up to you when it comes to how to approach it.

As far as where you can cut corners… that is a tough question to answer. Basically, you get what you pay for. There are some really junky tools that simply suck. Those are never worth it. There are a lot of midrange tools that can be made to do a lot of good quality work and are relatively price friendly. Then, there are great tools that make woodworking expensive, fun, easy, and give you excellent results, oh and expensive. Did I mention expensive? But some of those awesome tools are worth it.

I'll give you a breakdown of my shop and how I would rate the tools. 1 being junky and cheap with bad results, 10 being amazing with stellar results and on the pricier side. This is really unscientific, but here it goes.

Tablesaw - Delta 3 HP unisaw, used (9)
Jointer - Jet 6", used (8)
Planer - Delta 2 HP 13" planer, used (7)
Bandsaw - Powermatic 2 HP 20", used (9)
Drill press - Crappy hand me down , new in box (4)
Router - Makita 3 HP, used a lot (7)
Square - starrett , new (10)
Chisels - Faithfull , new (6)
Bench Planes - Stanley and Millers falls w/ aftermarket blades, used (9)
Block plane - Lie Nielsen, new (10)

Without going much father, that is the basic jist. I shoot for a 7 or 8 on average, as that allows me to make what I want to make to the standards I want, which are pretty high. I think you'll find a lot of LJ's are probably in the same boat.

One thing to think about is that a great tool in one place can make up for a bad tool in another place. For instance, if your tablesaw (5) cuts straight, but burns everything, you can just plane everything smooth with a good plane (9). If your bandsaw is a little junky (3) and doesn't cut than cleanly, you can just smooth the curves with a good spokeshave (8) and some sandpaper.

Hope that helps. Hard question to answer on paper.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

The whole "lifetime purchase" thing with table
saws or any machinery is silly to me. Your needs
will evolve if you persevere with the craft.

Some people are breaking down sheet goods 
and making finish dimension cuts using track
saws with rubber strips to prevent chipping. 
The "table" systems for doing this have reached
some maturity.

A fine band saw is a nice thing though. Something
with an 18" or larger throat is a convenience 
in making furniture. It can cut tenons and dovetails
too.

Slot mortisers are useful. Some can be had as
attachments to jointer/planer combos. I prefer
separates but if you're going to spend on a 
high-tech cutterhead a combo starts to save
money as well as space… in addition to the 
mortiser.

Some higher-end chisels hold a sharp edge longer.
Some just look impressive. High carbon steel
generally outperforms the chrome vanadium 
steel found in many lower priced chisels, though
with inferior rust resistance so high carbon requires
more care. These days you can buy vintage 
millwright's chisels on ebay one at a time and some
of them are very good chisels. Vintage Japanese
chisels can be bought the same way, pretty
cheap.


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

I would advise you consider carefully your methods of work and the types of things you will be doing before you go out and buy a lot of tools as they will determine what is important to you. For instance if you are planning on making a living at this and want to compete with other furniture shops you are going to need mass production tools like large jointers, planners, table saws, etc. If you are going more the custom artisan orders route you will want more hand tools with fewer large power tools. As for where to spend your money I believe quality is never a bad choice but if I'm going to buy bargain I will do it in places that see little use or are easily replaced every few years. Stuff I expect to outlive me I don't mind spending a little more upfront for a better experience across the tools life.


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## Big_T (Sep 7, 2014)

> My research points towards table saws and planes as 100% worth the high end price, but what about things like routers and bits, miter saws, chisels, jointers, etc.
> Thanks guys
> 
> - nakmuay


I too am new to this realm and am following the responses. We currently have a DeWalt sliding miter saw we picked up at Lowes for 50% off the floor model, but my wife likes the artisan aspect of woodworking. So we are looking for a discounted router, table saw and scroll saw.


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## nakmuay (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for the insight fellas. It's kind of the answer I expected, but it's great to hear it confirmed.
I plan on making a small hobby shop but sell what I make. My aim is to make solid basic mission style furniture, but may be add some reclaimed wood and a little metalwork.
I don't expect I'll be at a level to make a living at this anytime soon but I'm looking to invest a $4-5k and treat it at a hobby and a second job.
Interesting point by TheWoodenOyster about maybe using higher end tools to clean up the work of the slightly ruffer tools, I never thought of that. By the way, when I say lower end tool I mean more mid range than low end. Lie Nielson/Veritas as opposed Stanley/Craftsmen, not Walmart junk.

Are their any tools you guys wouldn't recommend buying second hand? I would presume measuring equipment? Chisels?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Mission furniture incorporates quarter-sawn veneers
on legs and things like that. You'll either want
a bandsaw that can cut those nicely or some
sort of sanding setup to compensate for a band
saw that doesn't.

Crosscutting may involve 4" thick legs so a
10" table saw won't do it. You'll be looking at
a 12" miter saw or some other saw with
similar capacity.

Also grain direction in the style is important in
nicer pieces so the general approach is to
lay out parts on boards according to grain
and color preference, then band saw them
out, joint, then plane them on edge to parallel.

Jointer, planer, hollow chisel mortiser, band saw,
drill press. Most any table saw will do for
when it's needed for things like tenon shoulders.

It's difficult to go wrong with second hand tools. 
You may get a tool you can't use once in awhile
but the money saved makes the tool capital
go much further.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

Even measuring equipment can be found second hand it you have the patience to look for it. I've had a hard time finding the CORRECT saw blades second hand. I've found lots of saw blades, but I've only come up with a few that meet my needs. But usually, I purchase new whatever I can't find in a timely manner on the used market. I usually purchase power hand tools new. New drill, new orbital sander. I was unable to find used ones that had the same features as the new ones.


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## buildingmonkey (Mar 1, 2014)

Some areas, those areas where the woodworking industry was located, have a lot more used equipment than others, my area has only been settled since 1860, and there were hardly any trees here, hence not much old woodworking equipment. I went to a lumberyard sale 40 years ago, they had some old machinery that ran off a single shaft power system, down the peak of the building, and they tightened flat belts to make different machines run. But there are NO old woodworking machines for sale here, only on craigslist do I see maybe 2 cabinet table saws for sale a year. So if you are in an area like mine, might as well give up and buy new. Although once you spend the money, there will be an auction with a shop full of Grizzly tools come up.


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## joshuam39 (Aug 13, 2014)

The Lumberjocks review section is an excellent resource. You have , for the most part, experienced woodworkers giving unbiased real world reviews. Reviews cover low to high end and new to old equipment. I'm always looking for that tool that is affordable but highly rated. I also figure if I outgrow a tool, or it doesn't meet expectations, it's not the end of the world.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

really is a personal question….

What's your project interest? what's your budget? how much floor space? Do you want a power tool shop or do you want to be a hand tool guru?

These are key questions… that will drive the decision making process


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> Mission furniture incorporates quarter-sawn veneers
> on legs and things like that. You ll either want
> a bandsaw that can cut those nicely or some
> sort of sanding setup to compensate for a band
> ...


I don't really agree with that.

You can do everything with a table saw, drill, chisels, and a jigsaw.

You can make legs on the tablesaw that do not need veneer. 45 deg cuts on each edge, put 4 together and laminate with a square piece in the middle. Even easier if you add splines.

Crosscutting can be done on the tablesaw in 2 steps with a stop block. You can also use a hand saw with a vertical guide.

Hollow chisel mortiser? I wouldn't really put this as a requirement. It's time saver, but you can do just fine with a drill press and a chisel.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Everyone's preferences and objectives are different, so consider what you'll be doing. I build mostly household furniture from dimensional lumber, using only occasional sheet goods. My major tool preferences are as follows:

1. *Table saw* (full size, belt drive, with an induction motor)
2. Router in a router table (variable speed with "1/2 shanks)
3. Planer (bigger is usually better, but a portable works well for most hobbyists in this case)
4. Jointer (bigger is better again, but I'd avoid the portables if possible)

- Bandsaw, Drill Press, Sander, and Dust Collection in whatever order makes sense to you.

You'll want a good flat work surface. You'll need lots of other "stuff" too, but I'd advise spending the vast majority of your budget and time procuring the major tools. Smaller stuff makes great gifts for friends and relatives, and much of it can usually be picked up with discretionary funds….big chunks of cash are much harder to come by in my house!


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## DGunn (Feb 14, 2008)

I suggest do this: Find your first project. Study it a little. Find the materials source. Then plan the process.

*Lumber prep and milling*

Mill rough lumber-Need a planer and jointer/or hand planes. I joint by hand and use the planer for getting to final thickness.

Dust collection-you want a dust collector with your planer and jointer. I use a single 1-1/2HP Jet DC on my planer, table saw and bandsaw.

Lumber now milled, how to cut to width and length- table saw is your best best.

Cut profiles and joints-table saw, router with router table are two best options here. But don't rule out learning hand tools. A good hand saw and some chisels can cut a wide variety of joints.

Drilling holes-do you want a drill press, or would a good cordless drill be ok for now?

*Assembly*

Again, a drill and impact driver are useful here

Don't forget clamps, clamps, and probably a couple of more clamps

*Finishing*

Sanding-a good orbital sander is a good start here. Hand planes take some learning, but you can get a good smoothing plane and eliminate a lot of sanding.

Do you want to wipe and brush on your finishes, or spray it on? This would be some trial and error. If I was doing a lot of mission style furniture, I would pre-finish a lot of parts, or invest in a spray system. The Earlax is a good option here.

*Other "nice to have" items*

A bandsaw
A miter saw
Some more clamps 

There are lots of reviews for these items here and on the internet. Do some homework and continue to ask questions. And be on the lookout for good used tools in your area. If you need advice, ask it here. Once you have narrowed down some specific needs and tools, we can provide better answers.

Thanks,
dlg


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## DGunn (Feb 14, 2008)

One other thing, the shop. Take a look around of some of the shops posted here. That will help you visualize what you would like to have and how you would like to set up your shop.

Click here to check out my shop. I could probably duplicate if for $5k. And there is probably very little out there in the woodworking world that I could not build with the tools I have.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Pretty much everything I could think of has already been covered here with several different options for you. The power tools are going to do most of your work for you (unless you want to go the total hand tool route) so don't skimp to much there with New or Old. But also don't forget the hand tools either, you are going to need some chisels and a plane or two somewhere along the route and a bad set is just going to ruin your day when you need them, not saying you need to spend $1000 on them but don't go the $25 way either and also a way to sharpen the chisels as well as plane blades.
And as said above Don't forget clamps, clamps, and probably a couple of more clamps. Which reminds me I got to buy some more clamps as I see my local HD has a sale on them this weekend.


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## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

The main thing to remember…....TOOLS do not make the craftsman…...get over the " I won't buy xxx brand because I would rather spend three times the money for xxx brand"......They are probably made in the same facility. No need in spending thousands of dollars on a name, then a few months or years you decide to put it on CL and wonder why people won't pay retail for a "only used it a few times" tool.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> The main thing to remember…....TOOLS do not make the craftsman…...get over the " I won t buy xxx brand because I would rather spend three times the money for xxx brand"......They are probably made in the same facility. No need in spending thousands of dollars on a name, then a few months or years you decide to put it on CL and wonder why people won t pay retail for a "only used it a few times" tool.
> 
> - upinflames


I have to agree with this whole heartedly , I spent about $100 on my chisels and most likely could not do any better work with them if I had spent $1000. Tools are a lot like Cars in a way , it dosen't matter how much you spend on the car if you don't know how to Drive it.


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## nakmuay (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks guys, lots of great stuff to think about.
The general consensus seams to be go second hand where possible, buy tools as my skills grow, GOOD table saw, eventually I plan on incorporating brasswork so a good band saw is on the list, budget for nice hand tools, and search trough those review.

Sorry to keep adding extra questions to the tread but I was wondering if any of you guys run compressors?
I have alot of good quality air tools from my job (bluepoint, desoutter, etc), and i notice that I can get similar quality air tool for the same price as electric. I a fan of the longevity of air tools over electric, my 3/8 pistol desouter is 20 years old and and still runs like new.
Other than noise and trailing air lines are there any major pros and cons from using air tools where possible in a wood shop?


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that you need to keep a little cash in reserve for accessories-e.g a better saw blade than comes standard from the mfg, sandpaper, sharpening paraphernalia, ear protection, stock for your projects, finishing supplies, etc. None are big bucks individually, but collectively…...

Also, I don't think enough attention has been given to dust collection if you are going the power tool route. IMO you will need a good shop vac and a true dust collector. If you choose to get a stationary system, you might spend an equal amount for ducting and fittings.

I would add a drum sander and a router table to the nice to have list as well.

Good luck and keep us posted with your progress.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I too am one who really likes used tools, especially stationary tools like planers, shapers, jointers, and table saws. But be aware that a TS made before the riving knife mandate likely won't have one. Even though I used table saws sans guard and riving knife for nearly 60 years, I now regard the riving knife as an essential safety accessory (still have no use for most guards, though). Generally, riving knives cannot be put on older TSs, though a lot of people are happy with splitters instead.

That being said, I did develop a true riving knife for my 1991 Unisaw, and did a blog a while back on it. BUT I'm not ready to start marketing/manufacturing, and will probably only do a very small run of them when I do start. Google "riving knife" to get some insight as to their importance. The riving knife mandate kicked in January 2008; existing saws could continue to be sold up until Jan of 2014, so it's something to be aware of if you decide to go the used TS route.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

> ...Generally, riving knives cannot be put on older TSs, though a lot of people are happy with splitters instead….
> 
> runswithscissors


While I agree that a good splitter can be very effective, it's worth mentioning that Bob Ross' "BORK" is an aftermarket riving knife that can be retrofitted to several older pre-riving knife saws. It's a viable option for folks who want more than just a splitter on an older saw.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

How much is "the" money?

And what kind of furniture?

Furniture to sell, or for your own use?

Do you have a shop space or do you plan to build?

If you have a space, how big is it?

All these questions need to be answered.

Overall, buying used is good advice for saving money and if you have the time to spend refurbishing equipment.
For some of us, building the shop and equipment and jigs is the majority of the fun.

On the other hand, if you are wanting to build a business for producing furniture to sell, time spent puttering around looking for deals and rebuilding equipment might not make sense.

Other than SawStop, I would not want any table saw that does not have a riving knife or a slider. There are not many out there on the used market, unless you look into European machines.

My shop equipment and materials and tools and supplies ran about $10,000.

I spent 5% of my budget on a table saw. Wish I had spent 15%.
- minimum of a 1-1/2 hp, cast iron, Grizzly or similar.

I wish I had spent 10% of my budget on a band saw.
- minimum of a 16", 1-1/2 hp.

I have a cheapo planer, wish I had gotten a good one, like a Dewalt DW 735. Thats another 7% or so.

I have a nice jointer and got it really cheap due to model year closeout. Spent $150 on a brand new Rikon 6".
- if I had not gotten this deal, I could live without a jointer, by using table saw jig and/or hand plane.
- this would be a good machine to try to find used.
- a good used Stanley #7 or #8 jointer plane might run you about $75.

A good drill press needs to have at least a 3 1/4" stroke and be able to slow down to 200 RPM. I like the larger Harbor Freight machine for about $350. If you have money to burn Delta, Powermatic and Jet all make $1000 machines that are super nice.

I like Porter Cable routers because they are like the defacto standard. Everybody makes acessories to fit PC routers.
- Cheap router bits are a waste of time.
- One exception is to get a big set and when you wear out the ones you use often, then replace those with premium bits from Whiteside or similar.
- I'm building my own router table as an add-on for my table saw. 
- I think I will build my own router lift as well. But I am one of those guys who loves building equipment.

I have the Harbor Freight 2hp dust collector and am very happy with it.
I plan to add a shop air filter to remove the fine dust.

So, up to this point you have spent about four to five grand.

Now it gets really expensive.
Portable hand tools. Circular saw, jig saw, random orbit sander, drills, bits, impact driver, belt sander, angle grinder.
Small power tools, 8" low speed grinder with white wheels, sharpening stones and acessories, honing guide.
12" disk sander, 6" x 48" belt sander, 
Hand planes, Work bench, Hand saws, Saw bench, Chisels
Quality measuring tools, squares, angle guage, levels, rigid steel rules, dividers, calipers, 
Clamps, clamps, and more cllamps.
Kreg Jig for pocket screw joinery.
Screw drivers, hardware, screws, etc.

It's not hard at all for this stuff to cost as much or more than the big tools.
You could get carried away with hand planes and spend more on them than a table saw, for instance.

Don't waste money on cheap planes, or gimicky tools like biscuit joiner, or things like the Rockwell blade runner.

One other point to consider. Some of the most famous wood workers only worked with a big band saw and hand tools.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

For an air compressor, I use a 20 gallon belt driven 220v Craftsman that says 5hp, but it's really just a tad more than 2 to 2.5 hp. It puts out 9 cfm at 90psi. I'd really advocate that you get something at least in the range of 3hp, 30 gallon for any shop. Anything smaller will run out of air if you do any sanding. I would like to upgrade some day, and would also like to try one of those newer air orbital sanders….Ingersoll Rand has a nice one. I purchase my air compressor used from a tool dealer for $100 a couple years ago. I've purchased many air compressors in the past year just for the motors, in the $25-40 range. If you purchase a used one, do make sure that they are set to the correct pressure, the pressure relief valve works, and they are wired correct, and that they have a dedicated outlet. For the last point, you never know when the air compressor will turn on, you can't be using the branch circuit for something else when you are using just about all the current available to START the compressor. Wherever you setup shop, make sure you have access to an electrical panel with a few circuits available.

It you want to work on the jobsite, you can pick up an Emglo (multiple brands put different named on them) wheelbarrow type compressor used for $250 or less.

Direct drive oilless compressors are annoyingly loud and not as reliable. Avoid them unless you need something ultra portable. My father had a 20 gallon "5hp" dual voltage Craftsman which was direct drive. I regret buying it…I'm grad it still at his house.

I just started to setup my woodshop at my new house and would like to install better filtration and a hardline across the ceiling with a couple taps for a coil hose. Right now I just drag pcv hoses around. I use it more for mechanics than for woodworking, but use the air gun and nail guns only for woodworking right now. I think I've used a rotary wrasp a few times.

Oh, and most Harbor Freight air tools actually work and are dirt cheep. It must be hard to mess up a knock-off air tool. It's about the only thing I will advocate purchasing at that store. All my air tools except for nail guns are Harbor Freight (I don't really trust the nail guns since they are more of an investment than everything else).


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## Big_T (Sep 7, 2014)

> For an air compressor….. I just started to setup my woodshop at my new house and would like to install better filtration and a hardline across the ceiling with a couple taps for a coil hose. Right now I just drag pcv hoses around. I use it more for mechanics than for woodworking, but use the air gun and nail guns only for woodworking right now.
> 
> - nicksmurf111


I like your idea of running hose tap lines and good filtration. BTW I have a 60 gal compressor for fixing my truck but if I could use it for wood projects then that would be a two-fer. I also have a 15 amp 230v line for the compressor and tools if needed. Is there anything other than a sander that I should look for in wood work?

My wood projects will include a pergola, window arbors, flat file cabinet, office drawers/cabinets and wife's rustic artisan hobby. My budget is flexible but I know the tools will never be used commercially, so I don't want to spend $10,000 on gear that might go on CL in a couple years. Space is limited to 9×20' and tools must be portable whenever possible. Any ideas ?

Does anyone also have thoughts on:
1…. Kreg jig vs mortise/tenon joinery?
2…. Bosch 4100dg vs Delta 36-725 hybrid?

Sorry for thread hi jack but a similar theme.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

> Is there anything other than a sander that I should look for in wood work?
> 
> - Travis


Brad nailers, finish nailers, blow gun to quickly clean fences on tools that collect dust. If you want to use an air powered sander for woodworking, then you'd need a good dryer too. But electric sanders work well, so why bother?

If you buy nailers used, do test them, or get a receipt. I mistakenly bought a broken Porter Cable finish nailer, as-is at a gas station, that cost me $50 (driver) to repair. The tip of the driver was broken off.


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## Victor07 (Sep 15, 2014)

I generally agree with what Dig wrote. At the end of the day, one has to work as part of a plan which can't be changed in the middle. Like everything else in life, we have to plan our finances before we dive in. Can't work in doscovery mode after spending cash.

Vic


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## Scott_C (Oct 13, 2012)

Here's another approach:

If your new to the hobby, see if your local community college has some woodworking classes. You will learn the basics of how to safely use a lot of different machinery and get a better sense for what's involved in creating a given piece of furniture. You will likely work with higher end tools (i.e. cabinet saw) and will have some perspective on what deserves more of your budget and where corners can be cut.

I'll echo the recommendation for used tools, but make sure they are in good condition, reconditioning tools can be a real bummer if it eats up all your shop time and potentially your budget if you have to buy a lot of replacement parts. I got burned badly on my first table saw purchase, and was rewarded by patience and selectivity with my second.

My list would start with tablesaw, planer, jointer, dust collection, and then maybe a bandsaw. But accessories and hand tools are also extremely important and often over looked.

Also, clamps, never enough clamps. So many clamps….


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## Big_T (Sep 7, 2014)

> Also, clamps, never enough clamps. So many clamps….
> 
> - Scott C.


Hmmm… Where have I seen this before?


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