# Should I attach my French cleats to a block wall, or make a frame first?



## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

I just bought a house, and my wife says the basement is mine! It's a little smaller than my last shop, so I need to get a little more organized than I was at the last place. I want to install a French cleat system on the wall, but the old block walls are crazy hard! I can drill a hole with a borrowed hammer drill, but it's a lot of work.

I've been going back and forth as to whether I should attach the cleats directly to the wall, or whether I should attach some 2×3 or 2×4 framing to the block wall, maybe cover it with plywood or tongue and groove, and then attach the cleat system to that with just wood screws? I plan to hang a decent sized tool cabinet on the cleats, so there may be some weight on them.

The basement is semi finished, has a drop ceiling (that I might remove), painted walls and floors, so I'd like to keep it looking decent.


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## jutsFL (Nov 1, 2018)

Id frame it out. Personally wouldnt want to put holes in my perfectly good blocks. Plus, if you plan it all first for the shop, you can run essentials behind the framing as well.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I really struggle with popping holes in perfectly sound block walls, or even poured concrete walls. I'd much prefer to build a stud wall inside the perimeter. Into that stud wall you can run electric, plumbing, and insulate it to make it all warmer.

As they say though, your house, your rules.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

I think I'd still have to attach the stud wall to my block wall though, right? do you think that if I just run a few anchors into the block at the top of the frame they'll support the weight of the tools hanging on the wall? Or… Maybe if I do remove the drop ceiling I could attach the stud walls into some exposed floor joist or something…


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Buy or rent a roto hammer and use a SDS bit if you are fastening to concrete.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

If you don't mind holes in your concrete wall, use a Hilti nail gun. I think they rent them at HD.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

Huh. Who knew they made nail guns for concrete?

Is there a chance that I could cause a structural problem or leaks with drilling holes in the block? I know the basement was recently sealed because it was getting a little water during heavy rains…


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I think I d still have to attach the stud wall to my block wall though, right? do you think that if I just run a few anchors into the block at the top of the frame they ll support the weight of the tools hanging on the wall? Or… Maybe if I do remove the drop ceiling I could attach the stud walls into some exposed floor joist or something…
> 
> - Jeremymcon


If you run a plate across the top of the wall, you can go into the stringers of the ground floor ceiling above you. I have less qualms about drilling, into a floor, but to make sure you don't end poorly after 5 years or so, lay down treated lumber for that portion of the wall build. For drilling the floors, Hilti drill at the local rental place. They work, they have the bits that will cause the least amount of problems. You can use SS anchors through the floor itself that expand on tightening them. That wall won't go anywhere. If you are worried about water intrusion, you can foam them closed when you set the wall. Foam into the hole, bolt into foam, and foam cap on top. 47 basement jobs, no call backs.

I always had good luck with RedHeads Actually married one


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I say it depends on whether you need to add any power outlets on that wall. If you need more power do a full stud wall. If not you could do 1X4 furring strips or 2×4 laid on its side if you want more wood for the plywood and cleats to thread into. The furring you will still need to anchor to the wall, the studs you can hit at the top and bottom plates. You should probably use treated lumber rated for direct contact with concrete so it can handle the moisture.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

I don't need to add outlets - I'm only planning to do a 6 or 8 foot section of cleat wall, and I have outlets on other sections of the wall. I don't really want/need to cover the entire wall with the cleat system - don't have that much stuff!

I'm starting to lean toward the 2×4's on their side just because it'll be easier to make changes later on if I decide to move my cleats around or if I ever need to replace a cleat. Good tip on the treated lumber! I wouldn't have though of that but I suppose it could get moldy if the wall let's some moisture through.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

DON'T use a nail gun. Drill the wall. Use expanding sleeve anchors in block, or drop ins in concrete. If you want to change things, with nails that is hard and alot of damage. If you anchor above outside ground level, there will be no leaks.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> Huh. Who knew they made nail guns for concrete?
> 
> Is there a chance that I could cause a structural problem or leaks with drilling holes in the block? I know the basement was recently sealed because it was getting a little water during heavy rains…
> 
> - Jeremymcon


There are a variety of nail specs and powder charges for any task. I've used them to attach 2"x4" studs to solid concrete with ease. I've never had satisfactory results trying to get wall anchors to hold as well and the amount of time and work saved makes the Hilti gun a worthwhile consideration. Much smaller holes left behind as well.


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## DBDesigns (May 29, 2018)

Jeremy,
I am currently in the exact same situation as you. My new shop is actually a little bigger than the last one but I still need to organize it to fit everything. My block walls are actually pretty brittle. Therefore, I am using lead anchors and lags to secure boards to the walls. ( Be glad yours are nice and firm.)

Two things; First, you are not going to damage block foundation walls by penetrating them with relatively small holes. You wont get leaks or cracks from that. In fact, it is a long term carpentry practice to fasten wood to concrete walls.

Second, If the block is not crazy hard, you can actually use a framing-nailer and regular framing nails to fasten 2×4s to the block. BTW, if you haven't figured this out yet, the blocks are hollow with 1.5" thick walls so you will drill through if you are in the right spot. Some people drill through and then use toggle bolts to secure the boards but I think this is a hassle. Don't overlook Tapcon screws either. Obviously there are a lot of solutions. A good hardware store can steer you towards some excellent solutions. 
Also, Home Depot sells a Remington concrete nailer for about $40. It uses 22 caliber loads and drives single nails out of the end. Use hearing protection because it is loud in a confined space. Again, this is old technology. It works just like a Hilti but it is consumer grade and way cheaper.

If the block is brittle, you may need to rely on a hammer drill like me. BTW, you will need one for other stuff in your basement so you might as well bite the bullet and buy a decent hammer drill. I bought a Dewalt 20V battery hammer drill and it has already paid for itself.

As far as wiring, you can surface mount conduit or Smurf tube and save on framing a wall. It is really just a matter of what your plans are and how you are most comfortable.

Check out Essential Craftsman on this subject and many others; 



. (This guy's a pro.)

I would love to hear more about your progress on the new shop since I am dealing with some of the same challenges.
Good luck


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

My shop is small. I didn't want to reduce the shop area by the thickness of a framed wall, so I have attached all of my cabinets, etc., directly to the concrete walls with French cleats. In the beginning, I fastened them with lead anchors, but in recent years I've used Tapcons, and they hold just fine, plus they don't require large holes like lead anchors. If you have concrete walls, an SDS rotary hammer would be a good investment. I started with a hammer drill and struggled with it on poured concrete. I bought the low-end Bosch SDS Bulldog rotary hammer and I have used it a ton around the shop and the house. It is hands down better and easier than a hammer drill. My basement shop has poured concrete and concrete block walls. I've drilled many holes in both and I've never had a problem with structural integrity of the concrete or any water leaks.


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## Mike_in_STL (Dec 8, 2016)

Treat it like framing out a basement. Pressure treated bases for your walls, standard 2×4 construction for the rest of the wall.

Use a powder actuated pin/nail driver and the appropriate pin/nail. I'm framing out my basement and have been using the yellow .22 caliber powder actuated driver to set all my bases and the concrete in my house was poured in 1967. Concrete continues to get harder as it ages. My concrete is REALLY hard and the driver buries 2 1/2 inch pins.

Put blocking in the ceiling/floor joists above you if the wall runs parallel to the direction of the joists. Blocking is wood between the joists to give your wall something to anchor to.

It's a little more work, but the end result will likely provide more options than just anchoring to the concrete blocks.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Sleeve anchors hold well in block, drop in anchors set with the proper tool hold heavy loads in concrete. Never any problems if you clean out the hole. I have installed thousands of these anchors on the job. Most engineers do not allow powder actuated anchors due to the damage they cause to the concrete or block. Lead anchors require an expensive set for use in hollow block.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

My block isn't hollow… House was built in 1900, and the block is crazy hard! I actually hit a couple spots that I couldn't get the hammer drill through. I do see mortar lines through the paint, so I'm sure it's some sort of block, but whatever they used back then was pretty hard. The more I think about it the more I think framing a shallow stud wall is going to be the way to go. I do have my dust collector attached to the block with tapcons, and I'll still need to attach a lumber rack to another wall, but I think for my tool wall I'm going to frame it out. I'd end up drilling way fewer holes in the block that way, I think.

Why is everybody recommending anchors as opposed to tapcons? I was going to use tapcons for my lumber rack - they say they can hold like 1000lbs, each, and since my wall is solid the threads are biting for the full 1 1/2" depth of the hole. Should be looking at some other sort of anchor for my lumber rack?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

My home was built in 1915. The same hard block, but not solid, just a much smaller void than modern block. In a word, tap con style anchors suck. Sorry, but I hate them. They strip, break, or don't go in all the way. For your walls, I would use sleeve anchors. 1/4" hole, tighten with screwdriver. And removable if needed. Just my experience. Different head styles and lengths available.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I used Tapcons when I redid the front porch….Both to attach joists to the concrete slab, and where the treated deck boards went across the slab. As long as you clean the dust out of the hole, and the bit is the correct length, no problem. They even sell the correct bit with the Tapcons. I needed a hammer drill to drill the holes, went to Harbor Freight, paid less than $20 for their "Warrior" brand hammer drill….works fine drill in concrete….sucks using it to drive screws.

Did a lot of concrete work, mainly foundations and other form work….went through tapcons by the pound. Used the "Red-Head" anchors…for some things….Hilti makes an epoxy gun….you drill a hole, fill it from the gun, and stab a rebar into the hole, BEFORE the epoxy hardened. Again, you had to blow ALL the dust out of the hole, or the stuff won't hold in the hole…but, it held onto the dust great.

Can't help on basement walls, too much…mine are Field Stone, with a Rich Mortar Parge….House is 100+ years old.


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## TEK73 (Mar 15, 2019)

I'm also in the same situation.
My plan is to use a plywood sheet as backing to mount all the cleats on. Then the plywood sheet will be fastened to the wall with a few sturdy bolts. Guess I might frame the plywood sheet for extra stability as well as to make it look better.
Depends a bit on the thickness of the plywood sheet.

@BigRedKnothead has posted a project about something simular
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/89950


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> I'm also in the same situation.
> My plan is to use a plywood sheet as backing to mount all the cleats on. Then the plywood sheet will be fastened to the wall with a few sturdy bolts. Guess I might frame the plywood sheet for extra stability as well as to make it look better.
> Depends a bit on the thickness of the plywood sheet.
> 
> ...


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