# My table saw has no riving knife/ splitter,no blade guard.



## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

After reading Ocelot's thread(kickback incident on table saw) and gfadvm's (Andy's) post(#22) I started wondering how many of us are still using a table saw without a guard or a splitter?
I see all these table saw accidents with gory pictures and the most common advice to the injured operator usually is,:" get a sawstop and save the rest of your fingers",or "invest in an aftermarket blade guard and riving knife/splitter".
I admit I don't use my table saw as often as I could because of not having these basic safety features BUT, I found out I don't always have to use a table saw as my first" go to" tool to do most of the cuts.there are other ways around using it.

I have invested on a few other cutting tools ,tools like circular saw with a shopmade track,straight edge clamps,bandsaw,jigsaw,etc. but still there are times that I must use a table saw,those times I rehearse the cut with the saw off a couple of times,then very carefully do the cut using my push stick,make sure every move that I make during and after the cut is a calculated/ deliberate one :








Of course I would love to own a sawstop or even a batter TS with all these safety features but if I eliminate the number one cause of table saw accidents(operator error) I think I can go on using my good old table saw.
There's nothing more demoralizing or deflating than shop accident for me,I know I had a minor mishap last year with my router (My fault),but I'm not sure a blade guard is the answer.
A splitter,maybe.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

I ll throw my self under the bus. I dont and wont have either. In my mind they distract from the cut and make things harder to see. Not to mention a false sense of security. I have never used a knife or guard for any prolonged period of time. One of the first thing I did to my Dewalt 12" chop saw was remove the guard because I kept using my thumb to keep the darn thing out of the way.

Still have all 10 digits. I am sure there are guys with knives and guards cant say that. Its called paying attention. If I get too scared I ll take up knitting as a safer hobby.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I've never been much of a fan of most stock blade guard assemblies and splitters/riving knives, but I usually had at least a riving knife in place (or splitter if that's what I had). My current riving knife is a "BORK" that's retrofit to my 2008 Shop Fox W1677….since the BORK blade guard (BBG) is small and allows me to see the work piece, so that's usually in place too. Even before I had the BORK, I had a custom made splitter in place for my Cman 22124 hybrid.

At a minimum, I'd suggest folks use at least some sort of splitter/knife. Splitters like the Microjig work well, are affordable, and don't get in the way. It's pretty easy to make a basic fixed splitter too.

*BORK:*









*Microjig:*


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I do not have any of those items in place either. The blade guard holds no interest to me, looks like it would block site lines and be in the way of certain cuts. However, upgrading to a saw with a riving knife seems logical. Is there a reason not have a riving knife? Kickback seems to be more frequent than blade to skin contact.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Not using a splitter or a riving knife is asking for trouble, IMO. Only time my splitter comes off is for non-through cuts or when I use my crosscut sled.


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## DavidTTU (Dec 3, 2013)

I have to admit that I do not currently use either as well. I have been looking at the microjig splitter and will most likely install that on my zero clearance insert soon. Because of not having a splitter, I keep a wedge near by. I wedge any long rip that seems to want to close in on the blade. I am very careful doing this, but it does not feel safe and I dont like that.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Nodda for me, 30 years and have only cut off 3 fingers and a thumb in 4 accidents, so I really don't see the need for any of those. LOL

J/K about the fingers and accidents. Still have all 10.

I believe in the "operator error theory".

Experience is the thing that keeps you safe. 
Knowing what your cutting and expecting what can happen as you cut, and being prepared for it if it happens.
Again experience is the key. I can't remember the last time I have had a kickback.

I think the biggest reason for kickbacks is that people let go of the wood at the first sign of anything going on, and they don't push the wood completely past the blade before letting go.

When something happens, wood vibrating or shuttering or hitting knots, I have learned to pause for a millisecond and determine what has happened before just letting go.

If you don't let go and keep pushing how does the pc kickback? 
Unlike Ocelot's mistake of pushing the off cut into the blade, (just a careless mistake).


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

TS gets used when possible. Blade guards and anti-kickback pawls are a PITA, and are immediately removed. Since using a TS with a riving knife, I won't use a saw without one. Wood just has a way of sometimes releasing stresses the wrong way when ripped, and a riving knife deals with it very well. Knife stays in place even with a sled. Not a single kickback with the riving knife while several occurred without one. Now, a knife won't completely protect idiots, but dothey need protecting….......something about survival of the fittest


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

In the past I have had a legit reason where a splitter would not work. Raised panels for the ends of cabinets. We would cut a 45 degree where the toe kick would tie in. Well the saw tilts only one way then you have to actually have two guys, one on the operator side and another on the saw in front of the blade. The guy on the saw would feed the raised panel backwards towards the guy in the operator location. Very, very, very slowly.

Sure, this was rare. Happened once a month.

Does this negate having a splitter? No. But old dawgs and new tricks and all that. I grew up on old saws and if I got one with a splitter I may use it but I wont go out of my way to get one.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Ken
I've found that having a guard has not been an option for me given that there are so many operations that the guard gets in the way and putting on and taking off a guard is just to time consuming and difficult. As far as an aftermarket splitter or riving knife I've never installed one either. I feel both riving knives and guards have their place and I would encourage those who are willing to take the time to install and or install and remove guards to use them.
An important point to be made is if you're using a table saw without a guard or riving knives is to always stand to the side of the path of any possible kick back when sawing.
I would strongly recommend purchasing a Saw Stop if your budget will allow it,so far my own budget will not allow it,but I have used them at the high school where I teach my adult woodworking class and they are fine saws,plus the fact of their safety features.
Unlike Sirirb I would never use a chop saw without a guard


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

The most dangerous thing while cutting on a table saw. is ANOTHER PERSON involved, thinking they are helping, pulling the wrong side of the board I am cutting, offering opinions of what I am doing wrong while I am trying to concentrate on what I am doing. 
I am comfortable with the saw I use. I know my limits on it. HAving someone walk in the door 1/2 way through a cut is dangerous.
My wife once came out to shop and insdtead of talking she FLICKED the lights on and off to get my attention. WE HAD A TALK about that, I explained how dangerous that really was. She meant well, things turned out okay, BUT it could have been a disaster.
Whether I use a riving knive or blade guard is my business.
Today I will buy still buy a table saw without those attachments.
Today I will NEVER buy another radial arm saw…......I thought they were dangerous.
Its all about OUR comfort zone. Don't use it if it feels wrong.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

I agree with the radial arm. Hate them. Guard or no. I just hate them.

Due to the circumstances involved with my previously mentioned cut involving 2 people, it was safer to have 2 guys do it who had done it before and who had worked together doing it before. But i agree with you that 99.9% of the time (then, when I did it professionally) it was all me on the saw. Now I dont have a choice, I am solo.

I hated that guard on my chop saw. It was really bad.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Sorry Jim, not singling you out, but I have heard this so many times from so many different people. 
I have to disagree with standing to the side. (This could actually lead to a kickback)

You have to stand wherever you are comfortable making the cut you are making. 
You should not jeopardize the operation trying to contort your body to the side, just in case you have a kickback that shouldn't happen in the first place.

This is just my opinion, 
I'm not going to tell anyone how they should do it, but it doesn't work for me. 
I don't have kickbacks so I stand where I need to.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> I hated that guard on my chop saw. It was really bad.
> 
> - SirIrb


LOL, I have a 15" Hitachi chop saw, guard is long gone. Safety is in the head, you have to use your head.

Love my 16" radial arm saw (I keep that guard on) Set up for cross cutting 25" width capacity..


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Kickback can happen outside of user error, no? If the internal stress of the board dictates the kerf begins to close beyond the blade, that can happen in a millisecond and you got issues? I could be wrong here. I know sometimes you can feel the wood become harder to push as the kerf slowly closes. But, it would also seem that it is subject to a quick change in stress as well.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Iwud4u
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I've made standing to one side for close to 30 years and can not understand how this can create kickback,I've never found it that difficult to do.
We all have to do what we think is best for us.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I don't use any guards. Not to mention that I'm not paying for an old unisaw splitter. Never had a problem. I use a push shoe. That's about it.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Kickback can happen outside of user error, no? If the internal stress of the board dictates the kerf begins to close beyond the blade, that can happen in a millisecond and you got issues? I could be wrong here. I know sometimes you can feel the wood become harder to push as the kerf slowly closes. But, it would also seem that it is subject to a quick change in stress as well.
> 
> - ShaneA


Internal stress can happen at any time. 
I have had it happen several times, sometimes bad enough that it will try to stall the blade, but my experience is that I have held the board down firm enough to turn the saw off.

I've never had stress relive so fast that it throws the board out of the saw.

The biggest part of being safe is having your hands in a proper place when something happens.

It's easy enough to recognize when the kerf is closing up, I guess having experience to deal with it goes a long way compared to someone that doesn't. 


> Iwud4u
> We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I ve made standing to one side for close to 30 years and can not understand how this can create kickback,I ve never found it that difficult to do.
> We all have to do what we think is best for us.
> 
> - a1Jim


Jim, I understand, 90% of the time I am to the side of the blade anyway, but there are many times when I need to be right in front of the blade, watching the kerf or whatnot, and I don't give it a second thought that I need to move my body. To me it's just more important to stand wherever I am comfortable and not have to give it a second thought.

My theory on how this can create kick back is that a person may not have 30 years of experience and while making a particular cut may feel the need to stand to the side altering the position and flow of their hands as they push the material through, therefore could create a different direction of the pressure being applied to the fence.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Iwud
I agree with you in that no matter what approach you take,that the experience you have makes a difference,but for my money people with less experience is all the more reason to stay out of the path of possible Kickbacks.It's just different viewpoints as to what you're focusing on when addressing this subject.To be honest I'm sure that there have been times I didn't stand clear of possible kickbacks, but in general that's my goal,so all said and done the only difference in our use of table saws is that you stand clear 90% of the time and maybe I stand clear 96% of the time.
As long as we both know that our approach works for us and that we both are safe in the use of our technique.


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## Lee77 (Feb 15, 2015)

Another one with no guard or splitter. About 10 years, moderate use, with still 10 fingers. Had one small piece kick out on me, but I was/always, standing a bit to the side of the cut. So it hit the wall, not me. Would like to get one of the aftermarket splitters in the near future.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

I find the blade guard, on any table saw, to be totally useless and is usually the first thing removed. The only time it actually seems like worth having is if it's being used for dust collection.

Cheers,
Brad


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## HarveyM (Nov 11, 2012)

I use them- riving knife & guards, nowadays most often featherboards too.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have been using a table saw for more than 30 years and have at least 10 fingers.

I work safe 99.99999999% of the time and always aware of safety.

I never use a guard as it is not convenient and can not see well.

I do not use a riving knife because it gets in the way.

65% of table saw accidents seen in emergency room involved no riving knife.

66% of table saw accidents seen in emergency room involved no blade guard.

Good Luck to those who choose to never use a guard or riving knife. I really hope you do not become a statistic.

It is absolutely everyone's personal business and how you use a table saw in your home. I would not want to be a business owner who allowed or condoned not using the safety the safety equipment. The liability could become an issue.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Redoak
I'm a business owner,but I'm a one-man shop.If I had employees I'd get a SawStop for sure. I think if you were to poll small shop owners most of them do not use guards and unless they have a newer saw most of them do not have a rivings knife either. I'm not one of those guys that says it will never happen to them,I know there's risk in using table saws even SawStops.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> It is absolutely everyone s personal business and how you use a table saw in your home. I would not want to be a business owner who allowed or condoned not using the safety the safety equipment. The liability could become an issue.


Another 'statistic'... it has been reported that about 95% of TS accidents are home/hobbyist users. Only 5% are professional woodworkers. While not precise, those numbers are consistent with the data provided by the CPSC where location numbers are concerned; 87% are listed as 'owners household', with 'borrowed' and 'rented' filling in the rest… 4.9% is listed as 'other'. Professionals who do it day in and day out have less incidents, while weekend warriors have significantly more… and given the lack of training, experience and types of saws used (the majority being bench top machines), that makes sense.

http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118311/statsaws.pdf

Cheers,
Brad


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I didn't use the stock guards on my first 2 table saws since they seemed to be more dangerous than nothing. I did, however, install a snap in splitter (2nd saw) and used it all the time on through cuts. Eventually I installed an overblade guard (more for DC than anything else) and have used it ever since. I recently switched to a saw with a riving knife, and use that same overblade guard. It always seemed to me (years ago) that those lousy factory guards were just a nod to be able to say we provided a guard; kind of a legal CYA.


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

I bought a blade guard for my saw. I put it on made one cut and tossed it. It made me so uncomfortable I nearly crapped myself. About the only time I use a splitter is ripping 2x material. Luckily my saw will trip a breaker I have between the saw and the main breaker. It has not happened often but when some material starts to bog the saw KEEP Going and let the breaker trip.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*It always seemed to me (years ago) that those lousy factory guards were just a nod to be able to say we provided a guard; kind of a legal CYA.*

My thoughts exactly.

Cheers,
Brad


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Though I often question stats from the parasites. I see no reason why they would fudge these numbers. I didnt even think about rented saws. Man, that is worst than armature/ hobbyist. That is someone saying "Hey, i have an idea. I could make a _this weekend and….".

Whats worse than a pro or amature doing something they know is pushing the razors edge?-someone who is pushing it and doesnt know they are.

That is asking for trouble. Were I in the rental business I think it would be troublesom to rent a table saw.


> I didn t use the stock guards on my first 2 table saws since they seemed to be more dangerous than nothing. I did, however, install a snap in splitter (2nd saw) and used it all the time on through cuts. Eventually I installed an overblade guard (more for DC than anything else) and have used it ever since. I recently switched to a saw with a riving knife, and use that same overblade guard. It always seemed to me (years ago) that those lousy factory guards were just a nod to be able to say we provided a guard; kind of a legal CYA.
> 
> - Fred Hargis


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

I didn't use the guard/splitter on my old Delta contractor saw mainly because it was such a pain in the butt to remove and install. I have all ten fingers, but did grind a bit off the tip of one while making some cove molding. Neither safety device could be used for that operation.

Changing the guard or knife on my SawStop cabinet saw is so easy I haven't gone without one or the other since I got it. Flip up a lever, drop in the knife, flip the lever back and that's it.

I had two kickbacks with the old saw, both my fault. One shot the off cut piece past me well across my basement shop. Only later, when I heard running water, did I realize that it had hit a 4" PVC drain pipe and shattered about a foot of it to pieces. That was at least 20' from the saw.

Might as well finish the cove molding story: I was being super careful, wearing safety goggles and good ear protection. I was using a shop vac to remove the sawdust that accumulates on the table when you are making a cove between each pass. I flipped off the saw and flipped on the vac and was sweeping up the sawdust when I learned that the saw was not off. I couldn't hear it over the shop vac and through the ear muffs. Fortunately the blade wasn't out of the table very much and I just grazed it with the tip of one finger.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

> Is there a reason not have a riving knife?
> 
> - ShaneA


Every time I read a thread like this I dig out the splitter, install it, and then use it for a while until I get frustrated to the point where I remove it and throw it back where I found it.

The problem is it seems to squeeze the wood and bind. It seemed like no fine adjustment would make it work smoothly. Then I finally realized that the splitter is too wide for most of my blades and that's what's causing the binding.

In my active shop, it's just too troublesome to continually mount and dismount the splitter depending on the blade and the type of cut. It's less troublesome to pay attention and to use good technique.


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## HarveyM (Nov 11, 2012)

I think that survey only covers consumers. not the pros (*Consumer *Product Safety Commission).
and 68% of the accidents (in the survey) were with cabinet saws, with only 10.5% bench tops.

If I read OHSA stats correctly 69 pros were seriously injured in the same time period; 42 using unguarded/raised guards


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*I think that survey only covers consumers. not the pros*

Maybe, but I don't think so.. in the report, it claims it is based on hospital data, so the source of injury should not matter:



> survey of stationary saw-related injuries that occurred between January 1, 2007, and December 31, 2008, and which were treated in one of the hospital emergency departments in the CPSC's National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS).


Now, OHSA I imagine, is based solely on workplace injuries given the nature of what they do.

Cheers,
Brad


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I do have a big RED off switch that I can hit easily with my left knee when the wood starts to pinch my blade. I DO consider this a worthwhile safety item. I even installed one on my big bandsaw.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

I don't have either on my saw, I left the cover and anti kickback pawls off the day I assembled it. I won't say I'm too smart or cautious to have an accident although I am both, (smart enough to know I'm not too smart … it's not possible). I Never had or used a riving knife and no one I ever worked for or around had any of the afore mentioned on their TSs.

I do occasionally use a wedge when ripping questionable lumber, the last time I had a kick back was in the early 80s when sizing shingles for some fancy sidewalling, hurt like a sumbatch, summer, no shirt, right in the belly button, nice red 1/2"X 5" rectangle. I would have preferred road rash.

As some probably already pointed out from their own experiences; 
1. Distraction is the main culprit it encompasses all the junk that can go wrong, fingers kick back, gloves, sleeves, hair, unbalanced tool.
2. Malfunctioning tools encompasses misaligned fences, dull blades, loose throat plates, loose blades, bad wiring.
3. External interference; all the things that can happen that the operator has no control over, Pettybone running over the TS, lumber dump gone wrong, bands snap and oh man!


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

i find my stationary belt sander to be more dangerous than my table saw. maybe im just more careful with the saw but that belt sander is always eating the tips of my fingers off


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## Diver165 (Mar 10, 2015)

Kick backs just don't randomly happen. It's been my experience that if you get a kick back you did something wrong. You're putting the saw or work piece in a bind. Ether you're not securing the work piece or feeding too fast.

The only kickback I've ever had happen to me was on my dad's radial arm saw. And it was because the work piece was not held securely as it went into the blade (I was ripping…enough said).

As for blade guards… Yes my TS has no guard. My fence has a few scars too. I still have no intention of putting my guard on. I honestly don't even know where it is. My Ridgid miter saw has its guard on. But it doesn't get in the way


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## Mahdeew (Jul 24, 2013)

When I purchase a table saw, the first thing that goes in the trash is the guard and the splitter.


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't get what the big deal is about using a splitter. I made one out of a piece of 1/8 Oak, bolted it right in back of the blade using the same bolt that used to hold the the blade guard on. I do not use the guard as it just gets in the way. I have seen the splitter save me problems with tension that was in the wood while making a cut a few times. My saw is a 2004 unisaw and the splitter stays on even with my sled. (no need to remove it) I do remove the splitter for dadoes and it takes about 30 seconds to remove. Using Board Buddies and a featherboard with the splitter while ripping gives me an excellent sense of control. A 3×1.5×1/8 inch piece of Oak for a splitter is cheap safe guard. Anyone who uses their saw with no safeguards is inviting trouble and it will come.


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## emart (Mar 16, 2011)

I do not use guards or a riving knife on my table saw. mostly because I have no idea where I could find one that would fit my ancient saw. All the rest of my machines have their guards in place however because there isn't any operation that would require removing them. The only thing missing is the lower guard on my radial saw which protects you from hitting the side of the sawblade. the upper guard is still in place however


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I find the blade guard, on any table saw, to be totally useless and is usually the first thing removed. The only time it actually seems like worth having is if it s being used for dust collection.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


My sentiments exactly.

I went commando for 15 years…...then one day had a kickback incident 1/4" plywood drawer bottom hit me in the groin and actually broke the skin. Wonder why my BVD's were stuck to my skin when I tried to take them off…...

That caused me to install the Microjig. I like it. Easy to just pull out for a groove.

Use a push block anytime I'm 4" or closer to the blade.

They are great for pushing thin stock or making narrow rips.

Have push sticks but only use them to hold stock against the fence, not passing wood through the blade.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

For all the discussion about blade brakes, it is amazing that someone has not built or invented a good guard.

I have a Sawstop PCS and you can not see the cut line on your board thru the guard. It is very good for dust collection but not visibility.

People can invent complicated brake systems but not good guards….Why


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

Using a table saw is like getting married, think before you act or you could pay for it the rest of your life!!!


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I do have a big RED off switch that I can hit easily with my left knee when the wood starts to pinch my blade. I DO consider this a worthwhile safety item. I even installed one on my big bandsaw.
> 
> - gfadvm


Excellent point.

Which brings up another point: with experience you can sense when a cut is going bad and shut down rather than try to pursue the cut. I think forcing through the cut is when inexperienced people get in the most trouble.

And another point:

On the low powered machines, you know when the motor slows down you need to pay attention.

But on a 5 HP cabinet saw, things can be binding and all you can go by is the resistance to the cut, which is a variable thing depending on the kind of wood your dealing with.

Somewhere I saw a guy made a knee operated rig to turn off switch with pvc pipe.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Guys -

People get hurt WITH guards in place.

People don't get hurt WITHOUT guards for 30, 40 years.

I think its obvious the explanation lies in experience and common sense.
Its also about looking at a piece of wood before you cut it (loose knots, warp, etc), knowing about blade height, not using dull blades, making sure your outfeed table is clear, etc etc. B

We've all been there/done that/got the T Shirt.

Just a couple weeks ago cut through an undetected loose knot in a board. Sounded like a shotgun going off scared the $%^& out of me. I shut the machine down, sat on my stool and had to get my wits together before continuing.

Which brings up the point that when we don't respect the machine like we should, we're headed for trouble.

What bothers me is guys like Ocelot, who think they understand their machines (but don't). That's when woodworking becomes a dangerous hobby.

Ultimately we are all responsible for our own safety.

I'm curious if any of the manufacturers include a safety video?


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

Just today I read that Bosch has released their new skin sensing technology in a saw called Reaxx that not only prevents flesh contact with the blade, but doesn't destroy the blade or brake. 
It is in the same price range as the Sawstop, but not wrecking the blade and brake could make all the difference in the cost.
For now, its only available as a jobsite saw.

Don


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Supply and demand. The majority of demand would come from experienced users. I would think that big shops dont use guards because they suck, not by design but by their existence. The less stuff separating a cabinet or furniture shop employee from the blade/work the better. So if these guys start to want and demand better guards (wont happen) the market will get better guards.

Things can get so safe they are dangerous. That is where we are now. Knives, splitters, guards-they cause an unnatural division between the operator and the work.

Also, as has been previously stated above, the majority of accidents happen with weekend warriors not pros. 95% of possible demand is lost right there due to the experience a pro has with a saw.

As long as the gvt stays out of bed with this issue the better we will all be. As soon as some congressman's kid looses a digit we are hosed and will have so much safety equipment on saws we cant afford them. And it will all be done with the crowd screaming "Its for the children". You can get any bill passed if its for the kids.

The reason I like no guards is comparable to driving safely: If you want to drive safer then install a 6" spike on all airbags. Trust me, people will drive safer. Same with the saw. Without all the safety equipment we can see the danger and have no false sense of security. "Yep, if I get my pointy thingy in the spinny thingy it will come off."



> For all the discussion about blade brakes, it is amazing that someone has not built or invented a good guard.
> 
> I have a Sawstop PCS and you can not see the cut line on your board thru the guard. It is very good for dust collection but not visibility.
> 
> ...


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## spcbike (Dec 30, 2012)

I don't use any of them. I can't remember a single time in my life where I couldn't tell in advance where something funky was about to happen if I didn't stop what I was doing. I would say that the closest calls for an accident have happened when ripping with a skill saw, and even then I new in plenty of time but chose to continue.


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## Florida_Jim (Jul 10, 2010)

When I was young and immortal I disdained guards and such, and was proud that I didn't use one.
I'm lucky I still have all my fingers. Now that I'm old I figure that the odd's are going against me. I've become very cautious. I use both a guard and Riving knife whenever possible. 
As for a radial arm saw, it's no more dangerous than careless use of a table saw. Most people critical of them, don't own one. I've used them all my life, and and currently have a 1956 vintage Dewalt MBF. I wouldn't be without one.


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## Rayne (Mar 9, 2014)

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do some people think the riving knife just gets in the way? I can kind of see splitters, but the riving knife? My riving knife has two settings; one for through cuts and one for non-through cuts. It never gets in the way and I've never had a kickback incident, but it also helps that I'm using the grrripper since it holds your piece on both sides of the blade. For smaller cuts, the riving knife and the open space on the open side of the blade prevents any kick back. I even use the riving knife on my crosscut sled with no issues.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

> l. A 3×1.5×1/8 inch piece of Oak for a splitter is cheap safe guard. Anyone who uses their saw with no safeguards is inviting trouble and it will come.
> 
> - mandatory66


I sincerely hope you continue using your saw with all its safeguards.if it has worked for you so far ,there's no reason for you to change your ways.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't use the blade guard, but the riving knife has personally save me from injury. I was ripping a piece of lumber and it started to get hard to push. I tried to pull it off and couldn't, so I stopped the saw. I had to get a wood block and hammer and coax it off that way. Turns out the piece of wood I was cutting had some kind of stress in it. The off cut side of the board (i'd made it about 12" in the the cut) was bending itself back towards the cut side with great force. It closed the 1/8" kerf left by the blade. Would have made a great clamp. The grain was straight, though a little closer together on that side of the board, there were no knots, nothing to indicate stress there. Without the riving knife in place, this gap would have closed around the blade, and that thing would have come right back towards me. Scary deal. The riving knife is never in the way for what I do, so I leave it there all the time. Great safety feature IMO.

Experience may save a lot of folks, but the problem is you need to survive long enough to get some. That is why new rock climbers use ropes, and experienced (or crazy) ones can free climb. The ropes benefit everyone, but experience can sort of substitute for their safety factor because you are more easily able to identify and avoid risks. At least, until there is a risk you misjudge or don't see.

-Brian


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't fight with the guard… just hucked it.

I do however use a splitter from microjig. I just pull it out and lay it on top of the fence when I need to, no bolts, no removing the throat plate.

It is only useful for 90 degree cuts, as of course it doesn't tilt.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I have a question for everybody using their splitter, or riving knife. 
In a situation where stress closes the kerf, does it pull the piece your cutting away from the fence?


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Possible it could, odds are it'll throw it up and back. As it is forced back, it can be pushed against the fence at an angle, once that occurs you have 2 points on the blade in contact with the mat.

Umpteen yrs ago I made an oak wedge I keep nearby if the mat I'm cutting have mental grain and or my cut is close to the knot because I'm removing it from the field I use the wedge to keep the board open. It works for me and can't buy one cheaper than free.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I'm not picturing how this can happen. Need a bit more explanation here.

Ideally a splitter should keep the wood between the blade and fence so this shouldn't happen.

I can't speak for riving knives, but my Microjig definitely keeps the wood against the fence, until after its passed the splitter.

Some versions have a second splitter behind the first that detaches and stays in the kerf in the case of a closing kerf.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

As long as the government stays out of it?


> ?


?? That is an interesting comment ….as it is already involved and has been for quite awhile.

Try looking at OSHA 29 CFR 1910.213© (1) and (d) (1) which requires guards and spreader behind the blade.

It matters little if you agree or not. If you have a business, you may want to read them and the guard requirements. If an employee is injured and the employer has removed the guards….guess what could happen???

I worked in an industry where there was significant OSHA involvement if there was an accident and missing guards were always noted. It did not matter who took them off.

Arguing with OSHA was not an option.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> I m not picturing how this can happen. Need a bit more explanation here.
> 
> Ideally a splitter should keep the wood between the blade and fence so this shouldn t happen.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to figure out, since I don't use them, if the kerf is closing and the splitter/riving knife keeps the wood tight between the fence and splitter/riving knife, then does the offcut pc bind against the splitter/riving knife?

Wouldn't this try to pull the cut pc away from the fence as the wood proceeds forward, or does it just get hard to push? 
I understand that the wood doesn't bind on the back of the blade but it will still bind on the splitter/riving knife wouldn't it? 
What happens and what do you do?
Or is this just a dumb question?


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## emart (Mar 16, 2011)

> When I was young and immortal I disdained guards and such, and was proud that I didn t use one.
> I m lucky I still have all my fingers. Now that I m old I figure that the odd s are going against me. I ve become very cautious. I use both a guard and Riving knife whenever possible.
> As for a radial arm saw, it s no more dangerous than careless use of a table saw. Most people critical of them, don t own one. I ve used them all my life, and and currently have a 1956 vintage Dewalt MBF. I wouldn t be without one.
> 
> - Florida_Jim


I think i am in the minority for people my age since most people I know have not even heard of radial saws but I was lucky to use a nice vintage one in high school.

Honestly I consider small tablesaws a lot more dangerous especially when I an cutting long pieces of wood because unless you have an outfeed table it's difficult to control large pieces on a small saw. I did use the guards on the table saw in my high school shop class back in the day. it was a big ancient cabinet saw with a guard that worked very well. It is unfortunate that I have not encountered a guard as good as that one.

Ideally I would have two table saws so that one would just be for ripping so i could leave a guard/splitter on it most of the time and have another one just fur cutting large panels so I wouldn't have to deal with removing the guards.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

The last time it happened to me, the off cut pinched on the riving knife and it got really hard to push. (See above) But since the riving knife is as wide as the blade, the blade still had a spot to spin. Without the riving knife, I'm sure the wood would have closed up on the back of the blade, and my work piece would have been flipped up and back towards me at about 150mph (the speed of the blade tips which someone calculated in another post).

What I did was try to pull the piece back off the blade, but couldn't as the wood was clamping down too hard on the riving knife. So I killed the power.

-Brian


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Yikes, I would never attempt to pull wood off of a spinning blade. That's asking for a kickback. Kerf closing or not. Stop feeding and hit the stop button with your leg.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Thanks Brian


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> I have a question for everybody using their splitter, or riving knife.
> In a situation where stress closes the kerf, does it pull the piece your cutting away from the fence?
> 
> - Iwud4u


no it doesn't what happens is the board becomes hard to push becuase it is "pinched" closed on the splitter, the Splitter is as wide as the blade, which prevents the back of the blade from grabbing the piece and launching it.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> I m trying to figure out, since I don t use them, if the kerf is closing and the splitter/riving knife keeps the wood tight between the fence and splitter/riving knife, then does the offcut pc bind against the splitter/riving knife?


Yes, if the kerf is closing it will be on the off cut side. There should not be increased pressure against the fence unless the board is warped already (in which case its not for the TS). BUT, depending on how far you are through the cut, you can have binding against the fence because the distant end of the board it pushing against the other side. Am I making any sense?

This problem really doesn't happen to this degree, except in a board with really wild internal stresses due to its grain directions.



> Wouldn t this try to pull the cut pc away from the fence as the wood proceeds forward, or does it just get hard to push?


Just gets hard to push. So whats actually happening is the off cut side of the board is trying to push the keeper piece along its length after it passes the riving knife.



> I understand that the wood doesn t bind on the back of the blade but it will still bind on the splitter/riving knife wouldn t it


Yes



> What happens and what do you do?
> Or is this just a dumb question?


No its not a dumb question.

What you do is abort the cut by turning the machine off and hold the wood right where it is. 
Then put on your thinking cap and imagine what's going to happen if you proceed with the cut.

The best way to handle this situation is precut the wood with a bandsaw or jigsaw maybe 1/2" wider and then re-rip. Then the offcut will have enough flexibility not to bind the cut.

Also remember if the off cut is warping so will the keeper piece, so sneak up on the final dimensions by cutting it wide and remilling but most of the time a board this bad is for the firewood bin.

- Iwud4u
[/QUOTE]


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

The riving knife has to be narrower than the kerf of the blade otherwise the mat would bump up against it and stop forward motion while in contact with the blade. Considering the variety of blade kerf widths offered today one would be required to have a number of RKs to accommodate the blades.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

I don't have either on my saw. I kinda feel out of place though…....trying to determine the value of extra fingers and no thumbs…....everyone said they still had ten fingers, I only have eight but at least I have thumbs!  as for internal stress pinching: the stress is in both pieces but demonstrates in the narrow piece regardless of whether the keeper or offcuts. we used to order 8/4 in thousand B/F lots and cut blanks for turning runs. we got some pretty wild stuff. we weren't concerned with the finish of the cut so we had a blade with wide carbide tips. it is possible to simulate this by ofsetting one appropriate tooth slightly to the left side and the right side of the tooth line. I have a couple cheap blades set up lust for this I keep around. the wood closing on the back of the blade is just re-cut out of the way. I did have a piece get stuck on a guard support a couple time on other saws. If the support/ riving knife wouldn't have been there it wouldn't have gotten stuck at all. Maintaining control of the work piece is most important. My advise is never to shut off the saw with material not clear of the blade. I realize that there are some odd cuts that don't allow this. any time you release either keeper or cutoff to shut off the saw and leave it to itself it has a better opportunity to find trouble. I dont like push sticks! there is no control you cant push a piece across the table in a defined track with one and if you use two sooner or later what you are cutting becomes two pieces to herd with one stick on each. very dangerous IMHO.

I have to question the 150 MPH figure that is only 220 f/second. A 10" blade rim depending on belting and motor speed ranges between approximately 900 and 1700 f/second about the same as 22 cal rimfire. fast enough to chamfer the corner of a 3×4x1/1/2" rock maple block 3/4" and knock a hole in a cinder block twenty five feet away!(don't ask, I was young and the set up was ignorant!)


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

It's a personal choice to use or not use a guard, etc. The answer right for one may not be good for another.

Many people still choose to wear no seat belts in farming communities. And everyone lives with the consequences of whatever choices they make. For these poor folks, the consequences were painful to say the least:

1 tablesaw injury every 9 minutes
10 tablesaw amputations every day

Source: US Consumer Products Safety Commission, as quoted in SawStop sales brochures.

Chuck


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> The riving knife has to be narrower than the kerf of the blade otherwise the mat would bump up against it and stop forward motion while in contact with the blade. Considering the variety of blade kerf widths offered today one would be required to have a number of RKs to accommodate the blades.
> 
> - Ghidrah


Most of the riving knives I have seen are the full 1/8th but the leading edge of the knife… pardon the pun is shaped to a knife edge, so that it doesn't; bump as you pushthrough. You will struggle if you forget to change the knife/splitter when you go to a thin kerf ripping blade ….(not that I have experienced it, but I HEAR that kind of sucks, powering down the saw 9 inches into the cut. ;-P


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

I am using a 7 1/2hp 12-14" saw. I use the guard when I can, or a splitter installed in the front guard mount.
What I am curious about is the need to watch the blade cutting, or cut line. For me, the line to watch is the board against the fence.
Standing aside, not a good idea to be in front of the blade or board on bigger saws.


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

I have a Kity table-saw with a factory fitted riving knife.
It also is fitted with an adjustable sliding rip fence which can be set for smaller or thinner material.
Perhaps in part this has ensured I have had no real issues with kickback.
Recently I was in the States and had my 1st try on a Delta contractors Table Saw.
It was an excellent machine, but I did feel at times when ripping some tension as the material was nipped between blade and fence, which could potentially have been a kickback.
This may well have been my technique as I was unfamiliar with this saw.
However, I suggested to my host perhaps he should think about making a simple false fence to go over the factory fence when dealing with shorter stock.
Not sure if this will totally eliminate kickbacks, but may help to reduce the possibility.
+1 with *unbob*.
I was always taught the critical point to watch when cutting was on the fence in line with the leading edge of the saw.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

Is that a pm72? I saw my old boss take 1/8th off his thumb on a 72.

I still wont have guards or knives/splitters. Old Dawg. I may change when I chop a finger and am down to 10 (From Mississippi).



> I am using a 7 1/2hp 12-14" saw. I use the guard when I can, or a splitter installed in the front guard mount.
> What I am curious about is the need to watch the blade cutting, or cut line. For me, the line to watch is the board against the fence.
> Standing aside, not a good idea to be in front of the blade or board on bigger saws.
> 
> - unbob


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

I have a Sawstop, and it is never used without either the blade guard or riving knife in place. There is one exception … a specialized sled and zero clearance insert with an off-cut ramp I use for cutting segments for turning projects.

Swapping them is no big deal (takes less than a minute). I have never had a problem with either of the Sawstop guards or riving knife getting in the way.

I set each cut up carefully, and use Allan (AskWoodman) Little's two push-stick method on most cuts along with magnetic featherboards.

I'm with *unbob* ... I figure that once the teeth hit the wood, there isn't anything I can do to correct the cut anyway. That's why I focus on setting up the saw for the cut.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I am using a 7 1/2hp 12-14" saw. I use the guard when I can, or a splitter installed in the front guard mount.
> What I am curious about is the need to watch the blade cutting, or cut line. For me, the line to watch is the board against the fence.
> Standing aside, not a good idea to be in front of the blade or board on bigger saws.
> 
> - unbob


I was wondering about watching it as well, perhaps focusing on the cut line increases their caution. I see the leading inch of the blade contacting the wood on my sawstop and that seems indicative enough of what is happening to me.

Also, I can't understand throwing out the riving knife or any safety device without giving it a try for a few weeks.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

I have to question the 150 MPH figure that is only 220 f/second. A 10" blade rim depending on belting and motor speed ranges between approximately 900 and 1700 f/second…

I had to work this out restoring two old Craftsman table saws.

There was a 2 1/2" pulley on the arbor. Craftsman recommended a 2 1/2" pulley on a 3450 RPM motor and a 5" pulley on a 1750 RPM motor so the final blade speed for a 10" blade was 3450 RPM.

3450 RPM => 57.5 rps

circumference = pi X d = 31.415 in for a 10" blade

linear speed = 31.415 in/rev X 57.5 revs/sec = 1800 in/sec => 30 ft/sec

The maximum speed on my Diablo 10" saw blade is clearly marked as 7000 RPM.

At 7000 RPM, the linear speed is still only 60 ft/sec

Is there something wrong with my math?


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> I am using a 7 1/2hp 12-14" saw. I use the guard when I can, or a splitter installed in the front guard mount.
> What I am curious about is the need to watch the blade cutting, or cut line. For me, the line to watch is the board against the fence.
> Standing aside, not a good idea to be in front of the blade or board on bigger saws.
> 
> - unbob


Of course keeping it against the fence is priority, but that has come naturally. 
I don't stare at my pc of wood against the fence, my technique for cutting keeps it tight, along with a few glances to keep it in check.
I don't just watch the cut, I watch everything. The fence, the cut, the pc of wood at the top of the cut, (the kerf opening or closing) it's really not just about one thing, it's being focused on the whole operation.

I watch the wood coming into the blade (the cut) so that when I see knots or hard spots I am able to adjust my speed to account for it. 
Sometimes I make stop cuts when making a notch, you have to watch the cut for that and have to stand where you can see it.

I really hope you all are not just focused on keeping the wood against the fence, there's more to it than that.


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## Anselth (Apr 19, 2012)

My craftsman tablesaw had no riving knife and no guard when I bought it. When I inherited my dad's BT3100, it had both but he'd installed a zero clearance insert and I've never bothered to modify it to mount them. I stand to the side whenever I make cuts, and actually have the saw set up so I can't stand behind the portion between the blade and the fence (my GWI table is set up as an infeed table). However, if I can find or make pawls for my GWI, I might get rid of the BT altogether and use the GWI for all my ripping. I already use a circular saw and straightedge for breaking down sheet goods.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I have to question the 150 MPH figure that is only 220 f/second. A 10" blade rim depending on belting and motor speed ranges between approximately 900 and 1700 f/second…
> 
> I had to work this out restoring two old Craftsman table saws.
> 
> ...


When I divide 1800 in/sec by 12 in/ft I get 150 ft/sec, not 30. 1800/12 =150.

150×3600 = 540,000 feet per hour or about 100 mph.

I had a small cutoff vibrate back into the blade once. It disappeared from my sight and embedded itself in the garage door insulation. So 100 mph seems about right.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

If the arbor is spinning at 3450 RPM, and you have a 10" blade, that works out to 9028 SFPM at the blade tips, or 541,680 SFPH. That is 102.59 MPH.

Cheers,
Brad

http://vintagemachinery.org/math/sfpm.aspx
http://www.checkyourmath.com/convert/speed/per_hour/feet_per_hour_mph.php


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Assuming an object, (.75"X6"X12" section of white pine at 20% moisture) actually attains the velocity of 102mph, (as previously calc'd by another LJ member) said object carries 521 foot pounds on impact. Spread that out over an impacting profile of 4.5", (.75X6) you have just over 115 lbs/linear inch. A profile of 72", (6X12") 7.236lbs/sq. inch


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

*My table saw has no riving knife/ splitter,no blade guard.*

Between my home shop shop and my work place shop I use 4 different table saws without guards or knife/ splitter. Until recent years not many even knew that a knife/ splitter here in the US.

I don't worry about it and just keep on cutting.


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## Racer2007 (Jan 13, 2011)

> When I was young and immortal I disdained guards and such, and was proud that I didn t use one.
> I m lucky I still have all my fingers. Now that I m old I figure that the odd s are going against me. I ve become very cautious. I use both a guard and Riving knife whenever possible.
> As for a radial arm saw, it s no more dangerous than careless use of a table saw. Most people critical of them, don t own one. I ve used them all my life, and and currently have a 1956 vintage Dewalt MBF. I wouldn t be without one.
> 
> - Florida_Jim


I want that 1956 vintage Dewalt MBF when your ready to get rid of it , I love those things. I don't understand the Fear assigned to the RAS by people since they are just oversized Mitersaws , but then some may not understand my Fear of a Lathe.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*Between my home shop shop and my work place shop I use 4 different table saws without guards or knife/ splitter. Until recent years not many even knew that a knife/ splitter here in the US.*

I bought a Unisaw from a guy who had used it for years. When we went to take the blade off so I could transport it, I noticed it had the pop-up splitter/pawls installed… He was amazed and said he never knew it was there 

Cheers,
Brad

PS: They were in like new condition and looked like they had never been used, ever, in the 30+ years the saw had been around.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I wonder who installed those, it didn't come from the factory that way.


> *Between my home shop shop and my work place shop I use 4 different table saws without guards or knife/ splitter. Until recent years not many even knew that a knife/ splitter here in the US.*
> 
> I bought a Unisaw from a guy who had used it for years. When we went to take the blade off so I could transport it, I noticed it had the pop-up splitter/pawls installed… He was amazed and said he never knew it was there
> 
> ...


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*I wonder who installed those, it didn't come from the factory that way.*

Probably did actually… or at least there is a good possibility that it did. The pop-up splitter/pawls (they called it the "Disappearing splitter and anti-kickback fingers") comes with the Uniguard. However, at some point in time, this particular saw had the Biesemeyer commercial overarm guard installed along with the commercial fence, so they probably just left it there (or didn't know about it) when they did the swap.

Cheers,
Brad


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> I have a Sawstop, and it is never used without either the blade guard or riving knife in place. There is one exception
> 
> I set each cut up carefully, and use Allan (AskWoodman) Little s two push-stick method on most cuts along with magnetic featherboards.
> 
> ...


All setups should be done and checked before the switch is turned on. Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut? Our focus should be on the stock, push stick and the saw fence and that is it! The SawStop dust guard and under the table dust collection extract 99% of the saw dust and should be used whenever possible apart for the safety reasons. Check my project on the shop-made guard for the cross cut sled. I can find no better dust guard in the market than the SawStop guard, not even the UK crown guards.

Chuck


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

You are right! I divided by 60 again, rather than 12! Didn't seem right.

Still a far cry from 900 to 1700 ft/sec, tho.

That's what I get for calcing before I have my coffee in the morning


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut?
> Chuck
> 
> - ChuckM


I know why I like to, but it makes me wonder then, why is everyone that I see clear plastic?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> *I wonder who installed those, it didn't come from the factory that way.*
> 
> Probably did actually… or at least there is a good possibility that it did. The pop-up splitter/pawls (they called it the "Disappearing splitter and anti-kickback fingers") comes with the Uniguard. However, at some point in time, this particular saw had the Biesemeyer commercial overarm guard installed along with the commercial fence, so they probably just left it there (or didn t know about it) when they did the swap.
> 
> ...


Maybe I mis-understanding the word "pop up"'

I have UN-crated and set up two unisaws and the only thing that came with was this"


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*I have UN-crated and set up two unisaws and the only thing that came with was this"*

The Uniguard is optional.. if you didn't order one with the Uni, then you wouldn't get one 

It attaches to the rear trunnion (so it works when tilted also) and slides up and down… and there is a slot in the rear of the table insert for it to come up through. To use it, you just pull it up and it locks in place. When you are doing something that it would interfere with, you just pop it down out of the way. No tools or anything needed and is designed to be used with the overarm guard. Takes about 2 seconds to raise or lower..

Cheers,
Brad


























PS: You can buy one separately and install it stand-alone as well.
Here is one on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/DELTA-34-868-Bracket-Splitter-Assembly/dp/B0007SXGQ0


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut?
> Chuck
> 
> - ChuckM
> ...


Then affecting your sight isn't the problem is it?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> *I have UN-crated and set up two unisaws and the only thing that came with was this"*
> 
> The Uniguard is optional.. if you didn t order one with the Uni, then you wouldn t get one
> 
> ...


I guess technically could you call that a splitter but a splitter or riving knife to be most effective it need very close to the blade. Does the upright piece have the same width as the saw blade?










Then there's is the I don't know what I'm talking about.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*I guess technically could you call that a splitter*

LOL - well, it is Delta calling it a splitter, so you would need to take it up with them 

Cheers,
Brad


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

lol Ok EE I hit the wrong key …...or I was trying to account for the extra digits everyone else uses lol. thanks to those who showed the work though. It led me to my mistake. Regardless it is moving fast and is dangerous!


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I like to see thru the guard to double or triple check my cut….

Today, I put the guard back on my Sawstop to see why I had not been using it. There is no good reason FOR ME not using it. I had no problems doing cross cuts or rips. It did do a better job at keeping the dust down. I am going to keep it on now.

The only issue I had is with some narrow rips where I use a Gripper to control the cut and will take the guard off for it. I timed it and it takes about 30 seconds to swap it for the riving knife.

This thread has helped me find what makes sense and works for me. To each his own…..


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut?
> Chuck
> 
> - ChuckM
> ...


In the UK, many crown guards are colored, like this http://www.dbkeighley.co.uk/masters/w650_saw.htm

When we make a cut, we set the fence in the position and push the stock thru. Seeing the stock hitting the saw blade or not doesn't matter, does it? If I blindfolded myself and used a push stick to rip piece, should it come out just fine? Once all the settings are done (cutting depth, width, angle, etc.), why do we need to see thru the guard, that is my question? Am I missing something here, because I have never needed to do so. When I cut a 4×8 on my TS, my eyes are on the fence to ensure the edge runs tight to the fence.

Chuck


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut?
> Chuck
> 
> - ChuckM
> ...


Affecting my sight of what? I already have all the settings done. It is like using an automatic feeder to run a stock through. When we run a stock thru the thickness planer, we don't need to see the cutters, do we? I really am not sure why ripping or crosscutting a stock requires the sighting of the spinning blade. I cam not saying you can't do that, but what benefits does it bring? Again, I am assuming you have verified the saw's settings before turning on its power.

I have been using the SawStop for 6 months + now and the only time I need to take the guard off is when ripping thin strips in which case I need to swap to a riving knife without the dust guard/shroud. Of course, the SawStop safety system remains in action at all times.

Chuck


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> I like to see thru the guard to double or triple check my cut….
> 
> Today, I put the guard back on my Sawstop to see why I had not been using it. There is no good reason FOR ME not using it. I had no problems doing cross cuts or rips. It did do a better job at keeping the dust down. I am going to keep it on now.
> 
> ...


I assume your guard is not the one used with the overarm dust collection. The guard must be used if the overarm dust collection is to be engaged. I strongly recommend any SawStop owners upgrade theirs with an overarm dust collection as it significantly extracts dust at source. While the factory 99% dust collection performance is possible under the ideal situation (large capacity dust collector used), my day-to-day use with a Festool dust extractor points to a 95%+ performance, depending on the thickness of the stock and type of wood. That is better than the Kapex mitre saw dust collection performance (at 91%).

The SawStop overarm dust collection is the best among the various overarm collection systems that I have tried, in terms of effectiveness and ease of use. Unlike the usual overarm tubes which you may need to move away from or closer to the fence when cutting stocks of different widths, the SawStop overarm dust feature requires no adjustments.

ChuckM


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

My gaurds are like condoms. They never get used. Not to mention I don't have any.


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## zipzit (Mar 21, 2015)

Best safety thing I did on my table saw was make a really big shutoff panel out of scrap plywood.










And no the bike rack doesn't stay there when working on wood.










The instant the cut is complete, my left knee pushes the panel to shut things down.

There was one pleasant surprise on the splitter / guard for this saw. When I got the saw (used) it was missing a few critical parts for mounting the splitter / safety guard. The prices for these safety related parts was dirt cheap. All the parts were in stock. Kudo's to Jet for that support


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> If the arbor is spinning at 3450 RPM, and you have a 10" blade, that works out to 9028 SFPM at the blade tips, or 541,680 SFPH. That is 102.59 MPH.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


I'm just a dummy with a college edumacation, but aren't you guys forgetting something - the mass of the object?

Doesn't matter what the angular velocity or whatever is, the heavier it is, the slower it goes, right?


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

the piece of wood that "shot" off the saw for me had three perfect teeth marks where it left the blade. It got up to full speed of the blade on a 3 hp saw. The crushed corner was on the opposite side. It had not been cut off. the hole in the cell of the cinder block wasn't calculated it was actual! It woulda hurt any part of me that had been in the way to stop it! Back then My dad did the math lol he was in small arms repair in the service and equated the velocity to that of a .22. At the time he must have forgotten to convert from inches to feet as well.
The parts for my guard have been gone for many years. originally the guards were removed because they got in the way for some particular cuts and laziness kept them from being reinstalled. At work I use the guard because its there and the job has been planned to make the cuts with it in place. A good functional guard is a good thing and does aid in dust collection. They can lead to overconfidence. Although I don't see a good application for kickback pawls on a table saw. Not that they don't prevent kickbacks but relying on them leads to leaving work in contact with the blade rather than clearing the work area. Most guards because of their size make it hard to reach around to retrieve a cut piece for another cut without moving around the saw. As some have said safety starts in between the ears. Might I add: and can be enhanced by the equipment. Poorly designed guards can be dangerous as well. I have seen many cheap guards on expensive saws with chunks missing because the guard has been forced over into contact with the blade, took a piece of plastic out of a coworkers face from one that blew up when this happened. There are far more pros than cons to using guards and splitters. On rare occasions there are cuts that cannot be performed with them in place AND on some of THOSE occasions the cuts should not be made any way (use of a skill saw may be a better choice). For all comfortable with the guards, splitters and devises you use without incident AND those who have used the TS without the use of mechanical safety GOOD DEAL! My hope is that regardless of style of safety that all of you will remain injury free.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

"A good functional guard is a good thing and does aid in dust collection. They can lead to overconfidence."

I tend to think those who do not use any guard are the overconfident group, not the other way round. A car with a better safety rating (ABS, airbags, etc.) doesn't make a driver over-confident behind the steering wheel, does it? I have seen this kind of thinking all the time and it doesn't hold water when we are talking about our body parts. When SawStop first came out, people were saying the system would encourage users to be less careful but after 10 years (and 50,000 saws sold), no one could prove that kind of argument anymore. It has saved numerous fingers though including those that happened in high schools where students were involved.

I welcome the Bosch new safety effort though we need to know the details to see how reliable it is. One thing that I like the SawStop's approach is that it WILL cost money ($80 + the cost of the sawblade which could be another $150) if you activate the cartridge. That is a consequence, in this case, money. Now the SawStop does make you think hard about safety, not the opposite. SawStop is not a free licence to act like a monkey in the shop.

"For all comfortable with the guards, splitters and devises you use without incident AND those who have used the TS without the use of mechanical safety GOOD DEAL! My hope is that regardless of style of safety that all of you will remain injury free."

Let's hope so. But the odds is against the latter group based on safety records available to us.

ChuckM


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> Why would anyone need to see thru a saw guard when making a cut?
> Chuck
> 
> - ChuckM
> ...


It seemed that visibility was an issue, so if the guards are mostly clear then visibility isn't the reason the guards aren't used.


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## ic3ss (Oct 19, 2010)

> Kickback can happen outside of user error, no? If the internal stress of the board dictates the kerf begins to close beyond the blade, that can happen in a millisecond and you got issues?
> - ShaneA


This is why a riving knife is a great feature, I mean a real riving knife and not a splitter.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*This is why a riving knife is a great feature, I mean a real riving knife and not a splitter.*

Honest question here… how is a riving knife significantly different than a splitter in it's function, aside from the obvious fact of how it's attached and moves up/down with the blade?

Cheers,
Brad


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

A riving knife changes with the angle of the blade in bevel cuts while shop-made splitters installed on the inserts can't. Riving knives thrive on making non-through crosscuts.

ChuckM


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

> If the arbor is spinning at 3450 RPM, and you have a 10" blade, that works out to 9028 SFPM at the blade tips, or 541,680 SFPH. That is 102.59 MPH.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brad
> ...


When it leaves contact with the blade, it will be moving at the speed of the blade teeth. This is true regardless of the mass/size unless the piece is so large and heavy it bogs down the motor and slows the blade. In which case it is still moving at the speed of the blade, just slower.

Once it leaves the blade, its mass/size would cause it to slow down faster than a smaller part.

Think about it like falling down on the treadmill. Once you are on the belt, you are moving at the speed of the belt. Regardless of your size, unless you are so heavy the motor can't turn the belt with you on it. Once you leave contact with the belt, you might slow down faster than a smaller person in the same predicament.

-Brian


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> A riving knife changes with the angle of the blade in bevel cuts while shop-made splitters installed on the inserts can t. Riving knives thrive on making non-through crosscuts.


A splitter also changes with the angle of the blade for bevel cuts (and I wasn't taking about shop made insert type splitters). Also, there is little danger of kickback on crosscuts, and a non-through cut has no real danger of having the kerf close against the blade, so any type of splitter/riving knife is pretty useless in that situation as well, unless I'm missing something that isn't all that obvious.

Cheers,
Brad


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

It seemed that visibility was an issue, so if the guards are mostly clear then visibility isn t the reason the guards aren t used.

- RobS888
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you didn't seem to explain why visibility would be needed during making a cut. Under what kinds of cuts or conditions do we need to see thru the guard? In most cases, with the sawdust spilling out (unless you have a very good overarm tube), the sighting of inside the guard is reduced anyway. Would someone please explain once and for all why we need to be able to see through a guard to make a cut? I have read thru this thread but couldn't find the answer.

To set a cut, we can lift the guard up and do all the setups, but once set, we just make the cut with the guard down regardless of whether or not we can see thru the guard. Right? Wrong?

ChuckM


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> A riving knife changes with the angle of the blade in bevel cuts while shop-made splitters installed on the inserts can t. Riving knives thrive on making non-through crosscuts.
> 
> A splitter also changes with the angle of the blade for bevel cuts (and I wasn t taking about shop made insert type splitters). Also, there is little danger of kickback on crosscuts, and a non-through cut has no real danger of having the kerf close against the blade, so any type of splitter/riving knife is pretty useless in that situation as well, unless I m missing something that isn t all that obvious.
> 
> ...


You are right that a riving knife doesn't make the cross cuts safer or less; I was referring to the benefit of the riving knife vs a splitter that needs to be removed before a non-thru cut can be made. New saws are required to be sold with a riving knife and one benefit of a riving knife is of course it is easy to remove it-in most (all?) cases without using a tool. In one brand, you can remove the riving knife without removing the insert plate, if I remember correctly.

ChuckM


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*I was referring to the benefit of the riving knife vs a splitter that needs to be removed before a non-thru cut can be made.*

But that wasn't my question.. which was how is a riving knife significantly different than a splitter in function (that is, to prevent the kerf from closing). They both perform the same function… just one is generally more convenient (although I've already pointed out that the Uniguard has a 'disappearing' splitter that is as easy or even easier to use).

Cheers,
Brad

PS: And that brings up another question… if a riving knife simply follows the blade (up/down/angled) in it's kerf, why would you even want to remove it?


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Would someone please explain once and for all why we need to be able to see through a guard to make a cut? I have read thru this thread but couldn t find the answer.
> 
> - ChuckM


Post #74 explains my reasoning. 
I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion on how to operate *their* equipment.
If you want your guard on, put it on!

EDIT: It's definitely in the way when cutting freehand


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

PS: And that brings up another question… if a riving knife simply follows the blade (up/down/angled) in it s kerf, why would you even want to remove it?

- MrUnix
[/QUOTE]

To use the overarm dust collection, a different riving knife is used. Two different riving knives come with the saw (if the overarm option is taken). Also, if I remember correctly, the riving knife is removed when using the dado cutters (need to double check on this with the SawStop manual though).

ChuckM


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> Would someone please explain once and for all why we need to be able to see through a guard to make a cut? I have read thru this thread but couldn t find the answer.
> 
> - ChuckM
> 
> ...


Just reread it. Now I am clear: it is one woodworker's way of making cuts. I thought there was a safety reason why we had to look thru the guard in order to complete a cut. Thanks.

ChuckM


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

LOL it is funny that these threads always end up bowing to a sawstop line of thinking. Unfortunately not everyone can own a sawstop or cares or wants to. some because of the attitude that sawstop and many of their owners have have caused people to run the other way. I am not the only one who has stated , believes or has experience with guards creating an attitude of overconfidence. the ONLY place in the many possibilities that sawstop has an advantage is direct contact with skin. that advantage is negated when someone forgets to re arm the devise after cutting wet wood and metal. SS is no better about kickbacks or pinching, or getting hair or loose clothing caught. could it actually be worse because of the expense of nuisance trips with wet material?


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> ... that advantage is negated when someone forgets to re-arm the devise after cutting wet wood and metal.


Actually, the system is re-armed every time you shut the paddle switch off. The only way you could forget to re-arm it is to leave the motor running.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

"Actually, the system is re-armed every time you shut the paddle switch off. The only way you could forget to re-arm it is to leave the motor running."

+1

The misunderstanding of how SawStop works is always there, especially from those who don't own a SawStop. No one needs to use a SawStop to practise safe woodworking. I have had my 10 fingers before I owned the SawStop. But the SawStop is in no way encouraging unsafer practice nor does it instil overconfidence as some (again non-SawStop users) allege. Some people overthink when they look at SawStop.

One day when all saws are equipped with the flesh-detecting technology (SawStop, Bosch, and other late comers), would that make future woodworkers overconfident? I don't think so.

ChuckM


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*But the SawStop is in no way encouraging unsafer practice nor does it instil overconfidence as some (again non-SawStop users) allege. *

It's not SS in particular… however it is a well known and documented psychological phenomenon that occurs in many situations when the individual perceives less danger due to an external safety mechanism or other device. To say that it no way encourages such behaviour in a blanket statement like that ignores the facts that prove otherwise.

Just saying.

Cheers,
Brad


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

Found this photo of the really large guard on my late 60s Delta 12"-14".
I do use this when I can, It actually is easy to attach and remove.

The guard, with the factory throat plate controls dust good. With a zero clearance plate….not so good.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> It seemed that visibility was an issue, so if the guards are mostly clear then visibility isn t the reason the guards aren t used.
> 
> - RobS888
> 
> ...


I think you should re-read the comments, you're confusing my comments with someone else. I never take off the guard unless it is absolutely necessary for thin pieces or non through cuts. As I said before, on my sawstop I can see the first inch of the cut and that is fine for me.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

> *But the SawStop is in no way encouraging unsafer practice nor does it instil overconfidence as some (again non-SawStop users) allege. *
> 
> It s not SS in particular… however it is a well known and documented psychological phenomenon that occurs in many situations when the individual perceives less danger due to an external safety mechanism or other device. To say that it no way encourages such behaviour in a blanket statement like that ignores the facts that prove otherwise.
> 
> ...


Totally disagree on this as safety bodies around the world are created to improve safety for us, not to instill overconfidence. By your reasoning, eye protection, etc are all bad. When we fly, we want all safety features an airplane can give us and pilots don't feel overconfident because of improvements in safety. The so-called documented psychological studies, if any, don't prove that we are worse with better safety features. That is against logic. The discussion on this aspect now comes to an end for me, I must conclude.

ChuckM


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

"I think you should re-read the comments, you're confusing my comments with someone else. I never take off the guard unless it is absolutely necessary for thin pieces or non through cuts. As I said before, on my sawstop I can see the first inch of the cut and that is fine for me."

Sorry I must have read the other comment. I just can't understand why someone says the guard should be removed because of the sighting problem.

ChuckM


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*Totally disagree…*

LOL - no doubt.. but just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Try doing a google on risk compensation, and you might find some useful info.

*By your reasoning, eye protection, etc are all bad.*

Strange turn of events there 

Cheers,
Brad


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Chuck you are constantly trying to draw an analogy that you hope distracts the reader from the real discussion. Your comment about pilots and overconfidence took me a while to recover from. fell off the chair tears in the eyes bluring vision and everything else that goes with a good belly laugh. I am a pilot. I have friends that are or have been pilots for several of the major airlines and one of my closest friends just retired from being a simtech for Delta. One of the most frequent shortfalls of the pilots is their reliance on the equipment causing them to lose their edge for unique situations. This not from me but from trainers and observation and incident analysis. You are correct I am not familiar with SS tech. I did get the rundown from a coworker who stopped by today and read through the comments.He said that it was worse for him because it did reset each start up. He had owned a SS and got rid of it because of nuisance trips.

I usually avoid these threads because as I said previously they become a soapbox for saw stop and the OP's thoughts get pushed out of the way. this one sucked me in. I should have kept my mouth shut and stayed i the shop LOL

My apologies to Dstrbd for being a part of the derailment.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

Not necessary REO, It's all good ,I kind of expected all the posts about sawstop ,it is almost unavoidable when we talk about table saw accidents,TS safety.

In my opinion safety features are only good if the aim for their design was to preserve the operator not to to protect the manufacturers from lawsuits.
There are a couple of well designed over arm blade guard/riving knife on the market that I might consider,but I know for a fact that having them on my my table saw will not change the way I operate the saw,which is with extreme caution.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

If you fear the tool you're likely setting yourself up for an accident. I've been in the construction trade for over 30yrs. The majority of the accidents I came across while framing came from newbs to the trade who were afraid of the tool or what and where they were doing it. 90% of the pneumatics saw and fall injuries came from ignorance and fear of and the inability to get past it. Respect isn't fear, it's in knowing the animal and how it acts/reacts.

I got nothing against SS or any Co providing a brake that will when it's supposed to and not brake when it isn't. My wife loves her electric windows, mirrors, seat, and door locks. It went back in the shop 3 times over a 2 yr period, for the driver's window, one in the back seat and the mirrors not working. It's grand when it works and not when it doesn't.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> "I think you should re-read the comments, you're confusing my comments with someone else. I never take off the guard unless it is absolutely necessary for thin pieces or non through cuts. As I said before, on my sawstop I can see the first inch of the cut and that is fine for me."
> 
> Sorry I must have read the other comment. I just can t understand why someone says the guard should be removed because of the sighting problem.
> 
> ...


No problem, and I totally agree.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

Hi Ya'll:

1. I have no fear of the Table Saw.

2. The Blade Guard is a Pain. I want to clearly see what's going on with the cut.

3. The Riving Knife is Absolutely Required. It keeps the wood separated after the cut. It can't close in on the Blade and Kick Back.

4. It just seems natural for me to stand to the Left Hand Side of the Blade as I always have. I believe it gives me a better view of ALL that is going on. It also keeps me out of the way if there is a Kickback. However I've never had one happen. (I'm also Left Handed) An exception would be a Full, or Long Length of Plywood being Ripped when you have to start cutting, say, 3 or 4 feet from the saw.

5. I have 2 Short Push sticks that I made, They are about 6" long and notched appropriately. The ones they give you with the Saw are, in my opinion are Useless. One of mine is used to push the wood straight through the saw. The other one is used at an angle on the back corner of the wood, (if a short piece and necessary ….IE Fingers to close to the BLADE.) It's Diagonally opposite the Front edge of the wood to keep the front edge tight to the Fence as it's going through.

If it's a "Wide Cut", say 4"/6" minimum on both sides of the Blade, I don't use them at all.

I've never had an accident on a Table Saw. BUT! I have Total Respect for what might happen. and Total Concentration when I'm on there.

That's it I guess. Happy Sawing Everyone.

Rick


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I mark pieces and cut by sight a bunch. I'd use a riving knife all the time if it had one though.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> *This is why a riving knife is a great feature, I mean a real riving knife and not a splitter.*
> 
> Honest question here… how is a riving knife significantly different than a splitter in it s function, aside from the obvious fact of how it s attached and moves up/down with the blade?
> 
> ...


Brad, I know you know the answer, but I'll add my take:

I am not that familiar with riving knives. Do you have to use a 1/8 blade?

With the Micro Jig, I know you have to order different kit for thin kerf.
----
Properly made, a true splitter should be the same thickness as the cut.

This does 2 things: 
1) keeps the kerf open beyond the blade
2) holds the keeper piece against the fence beyond the blade (featherboard effect)

For grooves, in 1 second you just pull the insert out and your ready.

The std equip pieces of junk they call a splitter are a failure because they don't do either 1 or 2.
Instead, they have antikickback cawls.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Just a few days after I installed my homemade riving knife on my Unisaw, I was ripping a rough piece of oak. It was reasonably straight and flat, however. As the wood passed a few inches beyond the knife, suddenly it became hard to push. I shut 'er down right away. I had to pry the wood off the riving knife. In answer to Iwud4u, no, I don't think the riving knife forces the wood against the fence, if that's what you are asking.

The knife works so seamlessly that almost any kind of cut can be made without it interfering.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I'd like one simply because I wouldn't have to worry as much about the work piece hitting the back of the blade and messing it up.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I made my riving knife for a TK blade out of 14 gauge steel. Fits perfectly-no drag, no slop. For a full kerf blade, probably 1/8" plate, but I'm not sure whether that's 10 or 12 gauge. Again, I'd cut a short kerf in a piece of wood and take that along with me to the steel yard to find the right gauge.

The riving knife differs from the splitter in that it hugs the back of the blade regardless of blade elevation or tilt. Very little chance of your wood contacting the back teeth as they rise out of the table and creating a kickback.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I have a question for everybody using their splitter, or riving knife.
> In a situation where stress closes the kerf, does it pull the piece your cutting away from the fence?
> 
> - Iwud4u


Had you been raised and trained in Europe you wouldn't even have asked that question. Take a look at this video starting at the 1:00 minute mark. The fence and the riving knife don't come into play at the same time. A little later in the video he rip some thin strip without the usual paraphernalia many use here.






*Just for the record I stand to the left most of the time. *
This guy didn't stand to the left










*Digging around the net I found this:*

What is the difference between a riving knife and a splitter? A splitter is attached to the carriage assembly behind the blade. The carriage assembly on U.S. table saws does not rise and fall with the blade. Two problems arise with this arrangement. A splitter is designed to be very close to the back of the blade when the blade is raised to its full height. The distance between the back of the blade and the splitter increases as it is lowered. The usual working height for cutting 4/4 stock leaves about a 2″ gap between the blade and the splitter. This unprotected gap isn't ideal, but it is still better than no splitter. The second issue is that a splitter stands above the top of the saw blade thereby forming a barrier when making non-through cuts. Therefore the splitter, along with the rest of the device, needs to be removed from the saw when performing non-through cuts.

In contrast to the splitter, a riving knife is attached to the arbor assembly so it moves along with the saw blade. This means that once the riving knife is adjusted close to the blade, it always stays in this same relationship. Typically, a European riving knife can be adjusted in its closeness to the back of the blade and also in relationship to the blade height. When the riving knife is adjusted the least amount below the top of the blade, it is not an impediment for non-through cutting.

The first industrial table saws made in the U.S. had riving knives. American table saws are just beginning to come back to using a riving knife. A Standards Technical Panel at Underwriters Laboratory, one I have been a member of for a number of years, recently passed a proposal for new safety regulations for the table saw. The new regulations specify that, starting in 2008, all newly designed table saws will incorporate a riving knife in the design of the saw. Additionally, after 2014, the regulations require a riving knife on all table saws of the designs currently being manufactured. In both cases the riving knife is required to be below the top of the blade.


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## jinkyjock (Feb 2, 2014)

*Alaska Guy*,
thank you for posting this video.
Pictures explain this process far better than words.
A riving-knife in conjunction with an adjustable fence is definitely safer.
This chap certainly has all the tools, even small people to tidy up any mess.
Cheers, Jinky (James).


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> *Alaska Guy*,
> thank you for posting this video.
> Pictures explain this process far better than words.
> A riving-knife in conjunction with an adjustable fence is definitely safer.
> ...


Your welcome. This is why all the saws both at my shop and my work pace have uni-fences on them.

BTW in Europe table saw accidents are way below what we have in the US. I've use nothing but uni-fence since I was 26 years old. I'm 71 now, you can do the math if you like. Slide it back for ripping and forward cross cutting, and lay it on it's side for thin rips and bevel cuts.

It's beyond me why the quit making them. Just a another strike against the new Delta company IMO.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> Just a few days after I installed my homemade riving knife on my Unisaw, I was ripping a rough piece of oak.
> 
> - runswithscissors


Unjointed/unflat wood on a TS = looking for a problem.

Your mistake was not using a bandsaw to cut rough stock.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Just a few days after I installed my homemade riving knife on my Unisaw, I was ripping a rough piece of oak.
> 
> - runswithscissors
> Unjointed/unflat wood on a TS = looking for a problem.
> ...


+1 
A warped board or a board with uneven edges can be difficult to control when ripping or crosscutting. Such boards are likely to rock during a cut. When that happens, the wood binds against the side of the blade. At best, you end up with a rough edge that isn't square. At worst, you get kickback or ejection.

Flat, square stock is a must

Before you make any tablesaw cuts, check that the face surfaces of the board are flat. Also, any edge that will meet the rip fence or the miter gauge must be straight. If the flat surface or straight edge is missing, the stock needs to be handplaned or jointed.


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## ChuckM (May 12, 2008)

Flat, square stock is a must
A warped board or a board with uneven edges can be difficult to control when ripping or crosscutting. Such boards are likely to rock during a cut. When that happens, the wood binds against the side of the blade. At best, you end up with a rough edge that isn't square. At worst, you get kickback or ejection.

Before you make any tablesaw cuts, check that the face surfaces of the board are flat. Also, any edge that will meet the rip fence or the miter gauge must be straight. If the flat surface or straight edge is missing, the stock needs to be handplaned or jointed.

- AlaskaGuy
[/QUOTE]

Your post reminds me of this: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/table-saw-safety-why-the-british-think-were-crazy

Dado cutters are also a no-no in the UK.

ChuckM


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

"Why the British think were crazy", LOL maybe they are right.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Y'all that rip only flat, jointed, finished lumber need to come visit when I'm straight edging a big live edge slab that is not flat at all. There is a safe way to do this on the tablesaw. Attach it to a long board with a known straight edge to run against the fence and hold it from rocking.


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## Patch2020 (Jan 1, 2015)

I have been woodworking for over 30 years and have never used a guard or splitter on a table saw. Many of the cuts I make would make me uncomfortable with a guard on. I had an uncle who would never use a saw without a guard, do whatever makes you comfortable. The only serious kickback I have ever had was on an old craftsman saw with direct drive, and that one hurt when I took a piece of 3 1/2" x 28" x 5/4" red oak to the ribs. I was 16 when that happened. Now I use only table saws with belt drive so that the saw stalls when the blade gets pinched. I have to go slower with some cuts instead of forcing the wood but that is what I am comfortable with.

When it comes to where to stand, same thing; do what makes you comfortable. I stand where I need to be to make the best cut and be as safe as possible. On most cuts I tend to stand in front of the blade, hence the broke ribs years ago. When I get to the end of a cut that I am wary of, I turn my body and present as small a profile as possible. I don't like standing to the side because I don't feel I have as much control over the piece of wood.

While we are at it, I am not a big fan of push sticks either. They have their place and I use them at times, but I know some people who want to use one when cuts get below 10"(exaggeration). When I was younger and dumber I would rip 1" wide pieces without a push stick (see why I don't use guards), now I limit it to 1 1/4".


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## plantdude (Oct 22, 2017)

I had a kickback using my brothers table saw without a splitter. The board shot back and hit the door behind me putting a dent in the door. I was standing to the side of the cut so I didn't get hit. I just bought an old Craftsman table saw that is in great shape but it was missing the splitter/blade guard. I have not been able to find that part since it is discontinued so I made my own splitter out of some sheet steel. Now I need to make a blade guard. It is always better to be safe than sorry.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Been using my cabinet saw for decades. The last one with an aftermarket (Merlin) splitter and it in no way distracts from the cut. In fact, I was just cutting a 2x and it kept the kerf from closing, which, as you know is the start of a kickback.

I only use the blade guard when cutting wider boards.

I ALWAYS use push shoes and they work in conjunction with the splitter to cut kickbacks to manageable.



> After reading Ocelot s thread(kickback incident on table saw) and gfadvm s (Andy s) post(#22) I started wondering how many of us are still using a table saw without a guard or a splitter?
> I see all these table saw accidents with gory pictures and the most common advice to the injured operator usually is,:" get a sawstop and save the rest of your fingers",or "invest in an aftermarket blade guard and riving knife/splitter".
> I admit I don t use my table saw as often as I could because of not having these basic safety features BUT, I found out I don t always have to use a table saw as my first" go to" tool to do most of the cuts.there are other ways around using it.
> 
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Gotta go with what Brad said. My splitter has proven worth its weight in gold since I bought it. Before it, I had to knee the switch off several times, while holding onto the wood I was cutting [for dear life]. With the splitter, I can power through in most instances. A few times, it took a LOT of extra pushing, suggesting things could have gone south pretty easy. A riving knife would not have changed any of that.



> *This is why a riving knife is a great feature, I mean a real riving knife and not a splitter.*
> 
> Honest question here… how is a riving knife significantly different than a splitter in it s function, aside from the obvious fact of how it s attached and moves up/down with the blade?
> 
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

The irony of the web page is, in spite of the good advice, a crap push stick being used. It doesn't do nearly enough to hold the wood to the table. I abandoned that type about thirty or forty years ago and use only push shoes that not only push, but hold the wood down farther in, toward the blade.



> Flat, square stock is a must
> A warped board or a board with uneven edges can be difficult to control when ripping or crosscutting. Such boards are likely to rock during a cut. When that happens, the wood binds against the side of the blade. At best, you end up with a rough edge that isn't square. At worst, you get kickback or ejection.
> 
> Before you make any tablesaw cuts, check that the face surfaces of the board are flat. Also, any edge that will meet the rip fence or the miter gauge must be straight. If the flat surface or straight edge is missing, the stock needs to be handplaned or jointed.
> ...


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Sorry, Patch, but all I can say is, holy cow!

First, if you depended on the belts on my saw to save you from a serious injury, you'd be out of luck.

That aside, I cannot fathom any reason to not use push shoes. Especially on narrow stock. They keep my hands well above the blade, hold the wood down and push it through the blade.

Finally, until I used a splitter, I didn't know how nice it was having one.



> I have been woodworking for over 30 years and have never used a guard or splitter on a table saw. Many of the cuts I make would make me uncomfortable with a guard on. I had an uncle who would never use a saw without a guard, do whatever makes you comfortable. The only serious kickback I have ever had was on an old craftsman saw with direct drive, and that one hurt when I took a piece of 3 1/2" x 28" x 5/4" red oak to the ribs. I was 16 when that happened. Now I use only table saws with belt drive so that the saw stalls when the blade gets pinched. I have to go slower with some cuts instead of forcing the wood but that is what I am comfortable with.
> 
> When it comes to where to stand, same thing; do what makes you comfortable. I stand where I need to be to make the best cut and be as safe as possible. On most cuts I tend to stand in front of the blade, hence the broke ribs years ago. When I get to the end of a cut that I am wary of, I turn my body and present as small a profile as possible. I don t like standing to the side because I don t feel I have as much control over the piece of wood.
> 
> ...


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

The only safety device that came with my saw I use is the riving knife. After having more than one piece fired back at me while trimming it up on my TS with a rip fence.

The last one just missed my head and went clean through my garage door out onto the driveway. I was very lucky.

Also I got a pair of these things called SAW BUDDIES I think. SEE PIC.










Now while seeing these in action in pics and video they seem like a miracle. I git them mounted and up and running and they looked great.. They also are ratcheted. You can only go forward with them.

BUT you cant get to your wood to push it through. BUT great in theory…

PS… KNOCK WOOD!


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I also found this a needed tool. SEE PIC….










When I first saw this CLOWNISHLY HUGE ORANGE thing I was like what the hell I will never use it but. its good for a laugh!

I use it every time I turn my saw on!!!! Its is 3/4 wide so you can use to to push anything through to that width. My saw has a strange habit of the piece rise off the table a little if they are small and light after they get past the blade. This pushes them down.

I need a new one there is a lot of missing ORANGE PLASTIC off it theses days. ALSO comes wit ha V SHADED insert so you can push at a 45 degree on the edge of a piece !

I ALWAYS stand on the left. WHO STANDS right behind the piece?? WHO DOES THAT?


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Same thing happened to me. Wife always knocks now. 
I too have used a saw (Jet 10"xacta saw) without blade guard or riving knife. I use the gripper for thin cuts and push sticks and other safety things. I work with a lot of seasoned air dried cherry and case curing is common so I get a lot of board pinch. I either use a wedge or flip and cut.
Realizing that when the operator and the saw get into a fight the saw will always win is a good realization


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I've had a set of these for near on twenty years. I only use them when I want to ramp up the chances of a dead on cut. When I do use them, I use a follower piece to push the wood through, rather than a push shoe.

Since these 1) hold the wood down, 2) hold the wood against the fence; and, 3) stop the wood from kicking back, all I need is the push piece on the table.

I liked mine enough I added another fence to my Unifence (thanks to a Lumberjock for directing me to it) capable of taking jigs and things.



> The only safety device that came with my saw I use is the riving knife. After having more than one piece fired back at me while trimming it up on my TS with a rip fence.
> 
> The last one just missed my head and went clean through my garage door out onto the driveway. I was very lucky.
> 
> ...


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

I previously avoided using the riving knife on my Delta 36-725. The only blade I had was a Freud combo blade, and it was too thin a kerf to use safely with the riving knife (tried sanding it thinner, got nowhere fast). After using the combo blade to rip some 2×2 maple turning stock to make lathe tool handles, and feeling it fight me the whole time, I decided the riving knife was no longer a luxury I could afford not to use.

Of course now, I have a Freud ripping blade. Even though it too is thin kerf, it's thick enough to use with the riving knife without any problems. It's performance is much better on ripping, so I always use it for rip cuts. The only time I don't use my riving knife now is when using the other blade and my sled for cross cuts, in which case it's a moot point.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

You can easily make a thin kerf RK out of 14 gauge mild steel. Another option is to make one out of an old saw blade. It is not a problem for the RK to be thinner than the kerf.


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## 30yearluthier (Nov 18, 2018)

I'm new to LumberJocks, so I apologize if I step outside the norms and etiquette of the community here, and if anyone chooses to be offended by any of my comments, I will say in advance, "I hear you, and I understand, and now you really need to get over it, let I go, and move on with your life, and I'll move on with mine. I have my opinion and you have yours. Great."

I've been reading the comments here, looking for an answer to a question that may not have a good answer, so I'll just respond to what I've been reading.

I've read more than a few comments that state someone's perceptions and opinions, some well informed and some not so much, and present them as facts, absolute truths, and as a reasoned and supported conclusion, when the statement is really just an assumption, that may be completely unrelated to what was stated previously.

I will also say that I've read comments that were honest attempts to help further the conversation, comments that were opinions based on an individual's own experiences. and stated as just that, and I've observed that although there is some derisiveness and momentary lapses in respect or basic common courtesy (maybe?), but for the most part, the conversation is conducted with a higher level of mutual respect and decency than I've come across on most internet chats and comment strings (one reason why I rarely even bother with reading, participating,, or commenting on them). I'm pleased to see the comments are overwhelmingly staying away from wild accusations, personal insults, taunting, or attempts at threats and/or intimidation.

My view on the safety issue is that just as we can't make a blanket statement that people inherently choose less safe behaviors in the presence of safety equipment, barriers, and warnings, you can't make blanket statements that these devices which are intended for or designed with the intent of improved safety, and their mere presence, lead people to choose more safe behaviors. People are individuals and choose behaviors on the basis of a wide range of influences and intellectual and emotional cues. The specific things that an individual chooses to place importance on, and chooses to react to, are just as varied as the chosen reactions.

I tend to be far more conscious of my safety and the safety of others when there are more safety devices, safety equipment, and posted warnings and proceedures regarding safety. I've worked in several industries in my life, on a variety of jobsite types, and I've been a grunt level unskilled laborer, a semi-skilled tradesman in construction, a highly skilled and educated technician, supervisor, and project manager in cutting edge biotech, a entry level button-pushing machine operator, machine set-up, leadman, programmer, process engineer, process engineering manager, and production manager at senior management level, so I've seen quite a bit from multiple perspectives.

You can lead a person to knowledge but sometimes you can't make them think. Some people are more predisposed to being cautious or concerned with personal and/or overall safety, some people are not. Some are willing to take risks that are managed that would make others sick and nervous at even the thought of those choices, and some are willing to choose behaviors and actions that do involve clear and observeable risk and danger, behaviors and actions that the accumulated data overwhelmingly supports the view that they do present increased risk and danger. And how we choose to react to learning of or personally witnessing these choices is widely varied as well.

I have worked in more than one company, as an entry level employee and as a senior management team level manager, where the person who chose the actions and behaviors most prone to elevated danger and risk was the safety manager/coordinator. The only consistency in outcome between these two men was that they are both no longer alive. One, as the direct result of workplace behavioral choices that the evidence overwhelmingly supports the elevated dangers involved, and the other was shot by his wife for having repeatedly being sexually involved with other women during the marriage. He now is an accountant.

And single.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

The original poster posted this question 3 years 8 months ago. He's probably not following this thread any longer. You may want to PM your advice to him to make sure he gets it. However it looks like his last post was 07-16-2017 01:14 PM .
Hard to tell if he's still around or not.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> I m new to LumberJocks, so I apologize if I step outside the norms and etiquette of the community here, and if anyone chooses to be offended by any of my comments, I will say in advance, "I hear you, and I understand, and now you really need to get over it, let I go, and move on with your life, and I ll move on with mine. I have my opinion and you have yours. Great."
> 
> - 30yearluthier


I've been at woodworking for the past 50+ years and never relied on safety devices to keep me safe. For one, safety devices have been devised by machine tool manufacturers to satisfy insurance requirements. They often make it less safe by shielding the spinning blade from sight. Everyone tries to capitalize on "safety" issues by "inventing" ways to enhance safety. Another thing is, I feel safety devices lull the user into thinking the safety device will protect them 100%, thereby making the user less attentive to what he is doing. I do not rely on safety devices to keep me safe. I rely on my own good judgement, experience, common sense and attentiveness to keep me safe. It is not necessary for me to spell out the rules of safety. That is a matter of common sense.

When you buy a new tool, it usually has several pages of warnings and cautions accompanying the tool. The tool maker is assuming you the consumer has not an inkling of safety measures. They are assuming you do not have any common sense. Working with power tools is no different from shooting a gun; they both require common sense.

Having an accident, hopefully not a serious one is the best way to attain a better understanding of safety. Like the child who sticks his finger in the light socket, once and never again.

Although this is an old thread, the need for safety never gets old. I would not want to convince anyone to abandon any of their safety devices. THESE COMMENTS ARE MINE ALONE AND NOT TO BE TAKEN AS GOSPEL.


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