# Why are we still not using the metric system in the USA?



## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

I've hated the american system of measurement ever since I learned the metric system in junior high school some 30 years ago when I was told that the US had plans to officially convert to Metric. That obviously never happened. The current project I'm working on has dimensions down to an accuracy of 1/64 of an inch making it particularly easy to screw things up. I swear the number one cause for mistakes in my shop is misscalulations due to the stupidity of a system based on fractions. It would be so much easier if it were in Metric. The only reason I don't just use it myself is because then I would have to use both systems and be converting all the time since materials and nearly everything else I ever buy for the shop is in american and I'd probobly make even more mistakes as a result. I'm mostly just venting here but I'm curious if anyone else is just as frustrated as I am with this completly stupid measurement system? Or know any tricks to making it easier to deal with (besides a calulator which I use but really doesn't help that much)?


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

We did convert to metric. ALMOST. Now we get to deal with metric and Imperial measurments. Then when I drive acrooss the St. Claire river I can buy fuel in US gallons.
Use a tape measure with USA markings.Biggest mistakes are conversions. 
I once watched an old carpenter measure a wall, walk to the lumber he needed to cut, he never rolled up his tape measure, he marked the piece he needed and started cutting. When I walked over to watch him cut, I noticed his tape measure was so worn out it had no numbers anymore,, all he did was transfer the distance he needed. He could have used a string and it would have given him the size he needed.


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

I use Fastcap tape measures that have both scales on it.


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

I wonder if anyone makes a decimal imperial ruler or measuring tape? It seems this would address your not wanting to work in both SI and imperial and resolve the fractions issue…I know you can get decimal inch digital calipers.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

The Starrett Digitape converts imperial to metric and vise versa. It also
does inches in 100s, which goes well with dial caliper measurements.

In guitar making I've learned to think in metric in small increments and
10ths of an inch.

It may seem ridiculous, but I basically think in three systems when I do
woodworking, but I work to "relative accuracy" which mean when you
make a mortise you measure it with a caliper or whatever, but you
ignore the measurement and use the measuring tool to make the tenon
to fit. This is the way they did it in biblical times too, with story sticks
and "thumb widths" (which I use too, in rougher work). When you
work to relative accuracy more you learn to make parts to fit together
regardless of the math - it's about relationships and proportions and what
looks good to your design sensibilities.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

Problem is that have have talked to other woodworkers from other countries who ask the exact question as use, only in reverse. I don't think it is an issue of which system is used. I think it boils down to an issue of not having a universal system worldwide when some of us get plans from sources all over the world. I just had a bear of a time with measurement conversion on the flip flop of what you have had problems with. I had plans with metric measurement, all the way down to the 2mm and 4mm slots in parts that had to go inside of each other. Well, it throws you a curve ball when you cut those patterns with 4mm slots and 1/4" plywood (or 1/8" if I'd been able to even get that) has to go into that slot.
I have no preference one way or the other. I can use both. I just wish that the world would get on the same page and use one or the other.
Dangit!
I just remembered. If they choose the American system, the project I just finished would have still given me problems. It was drawn from a seventeenth century plan that used metric. If they'd choose metric, I have plans that were drawn in the nineteenth century using inches. 
Looks like the great measurement compromise still wouldn't solve all my problems. So I guess I'll stay out of this discussion like I usually do every time it pops up (and it does from time to time).


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm a Canadian, and was born late enough last century to have grown up using the metric system. However, I use the Imperial system for all my woodworking. For rough measurements, I find the imperial system a lot easier. It is simpler to look at a tape measure and see the fractions, rather than to have to count out the millimeters. I can see 7/8" a lot quicker than squinting to see if something is 7mm or 8mm. I agree though, for accuracy, the metric system is superior, really, anything less than 1/8" I start having to scratch my head. When I measure stuff with my digital caliper, I often get strange fractions eg. 17/64 which is really frustrating because I can't quickly "see" the measurement in my head.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

The other thing I want to add is a big "amen" after reading William's post. Well put. Sure gets tiring having to have 2 sets of wrenches, allen keys, sockets etc.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I have been around scientific types all my life, so both systems of measurement are pretty natural to me. I tend to convert fractional sizes to decimal in my head, now converting those SAE decimals to metric is a bit more calculation intensive, but not a big deal…

I know that most manufacturing industries that are still in the U.S. have for the most part converted. Now I have had to deal with both U.S. manufactured machines, as well as foreign manufactured machines that have had fasteners and threads in both systems of measurement…

I think due to the history, and the LARGE amounts of existing structures and systems, things like dimensional lumber, and plumbing fittings are going to be the inch system for years to come…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow, don't get me started. lol
Of course the Metric System is a far more superior measurement system. It's linear and other measurements can be used in the appropriate large units, small units and micro units - all of which are translatable up and down.
Working in 2 systems is not the way to go, "there can be only one". The US and Liberia are committed to be the last hold outs using a very antiquated system whose measurement origins are from noses, fingers, feet - all without any relationship to each other. When Liberia goes modern, the US will become a large island using a non world standard measuring system.
But it is strange that even though the US public decries being asked to use the metric system, they allow for it to be used in Airplane and Space engineering, medicine, electronics, new autos etc. -the list goes on. Do you know of anyone who over the past 4 decades that has ever purchased an 1-3/8 (1.779") roll of camera film? - me neither, it's 35mm.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Well said Rob, those are exactly my headaches. I know how big 7/8 or 1/4 is but I need a calulator to figure out that 17/64 is just a hair over 1/4. But a number like 0.26 is really easy to tell that it's a hair over .25. And having to own 2 sets of tools and then trying to figure out which set I need depending on which machine I'm trying to work on drives me up a fricken wall…


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

As for the "two sets of tools" problem, you are a lucky dog if all you have to do is figure out which set to use on which machine. I done mechanic work for thirteen years. On cars and truck from american companies made after about the mid-eighties, it was easy to tell which set your needed to work on them, BOTH!
Seriously, it was always a major frustration. It even got to the ridiculous point that us mechanics just had to learn which metric sizes were close to the SAE measurements and hope the bolt wasn't so tight that you stripped it out by using the wrong tool. For example, 1/2" and 13mm bolts can usually be take out with either size tool. I've replaced alternators for example. The long pivot bolt through the top of the part was a 1/2" bolt with a 13mm nut on the backside. Who would even make a 13mm nut to fit a 1/2" bolt? WHY?! The bolt on the bottom that held the tension would be a 15mm. There were four wires held on the back by smaller nuts, 5/16", 8mm, and two 10mms. Can you say ridiculous?
By the way, my example isn't a joke. That is a perfect, real world example of an alternator on a vehicle. It drives mechanics crazy.
On another note you may find interesting though about tools, guys, the tools confusion technique of automakers went way beyond SAE vs. metric. In the nineties they really started using torx fasteners in odd places, and in very odd sizes. Then on top of that they added some with the "safety" feature of the little round tip in the middle that made mechanics have to rush out and buy a whole new set of tools for. Then (Ford especially) got bad about using what I call reverse torx. This was nuts and bolt heads that had twelve point sides instead of the typical six. This required you to use twelve point sockets or twelve point box end wrenches. To make it more difficult, they installed some of those (somehow) in places that you couldn't fit a typical box end wrench withougt first grinding some "meat" off of them to fit between the top of the fastener and whatevever else was in the way. Of course, every time they done this, FoMoCo sold their "special tool" for getting to that exact accessory. The special tool cost so much though that you came out cheaper buying several extra sets of tools just so that you could modifiy them for specific tasks. I still have tools that have been grinded on, heated and bent to funny shapes, hacked off real short, and extended by welding pipe in between two cut end of the same wrench, all for special purpose wrenches that usually served the purpose of doing one single job on one single make and model of vehicle.
Don, you brought it up, the two sets of tools thing, but before I climb down off my soapbox, I'll throw in one more for you just for fun.
In 1962, International made a 152 slant four engine for their scout trucks. Every bolt on it was allen head.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

William; I've done a lot of work on cars as well, and the lack of standardization in the auto industry, or as you put it even in one car is frustrating. I've rounded my share of bolt heads using metric because the other bolts were metric, except in one…
Torx…another excuse to have to buy another set of sockets, and screwdrivers.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Listening to all those mechanical stories ! Now I understand why the mechanics used to scream when I drove my VW beetle into the shop back in the 70's. He sold me the used car, threw in a set of open end Metric wrenches and metric sockets.
TODAY I joke about my "Cresent wrench" being Metric, or the "pipe wrench" being left handed . No joking about the "Vise Grips" ! lol
Luckily our 4×8 sheets of plywood are still around. Metric thickness tough, messes up the dado set.


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

ahh conservative americans, don't like change hehe. 
change is never easy, but sometimes you better just bite the nail.
lucky for me we switched to metric in europe 200 years ago, at least the whole usa has the same outdated system. before metric every country or even city had it's own silly system.

guess you could compare it to when we switched to the euro 9 years ago, givng up your own currency and it's history is not easy. you need to learn the value of money again, but now that we adapted life is so much more easy. especially for me because half my customers are dutch.
can you imagine 15 countries getting together and agreeing to change their monetary system, while 1 country has been trying to change it's measuring system since the 19th century!


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't care if it's metric or imperial, I just wish we were working with one system worldwide. Since the metric system appears to be the future for the US and it is well established in the rest of the world - let's get there faster.

I have 2 complete sets of wrenches and 2 sets of drill bits. I recently had to get an adaptor to handle router bits with an 8 mm shaft. I thought the post supporting the tool rest on my lathe was 1" in diameter and I ordered a new one. Only after I got it did I realize that the post is 25 mm. You cannot put a 1" post in a 25 mm hole.

Compared to most other industries, I think carpentry and woodworking are two of the slowest to make the transition.


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## TheHarr (Sep 16, 2008)

We were almost on the metric system during the Carter administration. As I recall, the bill was passed during the Carter administration and was to be signed into law (?) the following year by the next newly elected president, Ronald Regan. Regan didn't feel it was necessary to convert over to metric and so he did not sign it. I'm not 100% clear about the legislative aspects of these events, but I do remember regreting this while watching the news.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Well the metric system was invented by communist to over throw our way of life.

It was invented by a guy named Howcanipissboboff,on June 6th, 1961. Everyone

should write there Congressman, and insist that any use of the Metric system be

repealed!!! LOL…


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## smgaines (Sep 24, 2010)

There really isn't a reason why you couldn't use metric if you wanted to. Just buy a metric tape, plans and go to it. I think either system is fine. The metric system does make more sense however if you think of how much money it would cost to change the US over to the metric system I don't think we'll be seeing that anytime soon. Maybe that will be in the next stimulus bill.


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## reberly (Jan 14, 2011)

We don't even use the system the Brits gave us correctly. If we did we would be weighed in slugs and stones.  I wish converting over would be as easy as just a new measuring tape, but then my sawmill scale, my tablesaw scale, my shaper scale, and my planer scale would all be wrong too not including need SAE and Metric tools for the next 100 years after we switch. I wonder if we would be able to make more money as an economy if we did switch. If I lived overseas and knew I might have to buy all new tools if I bought an American built machine, I would think twice.
Rich


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

May I quote the US Laws?

*1866*
The use of the metric system made legal in the United States by the Metric Act of 1866 (Public Law 39-183). This law made it unlawful to refuse to trade or deal in metric quantities.

*1875*
The Convention of the Metre signed on 20 May 1875 in Paris by 17 nations, including the United States. The Meter Convention, often called the Treaty of the Meter in the United States, provided for improved metric weights and measures and the establishment of the General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) devoted to international agreement on matters of weights and measures. To recognize this anniversary, 20 May is now World Metrology Day, as found on the Metric events and anniversaries page.

*1916*
The Metric Association formed as a non-profit organization advocating adoption of the metric system in U.S. commerce and education. The organizational name started as the American Metric Association and was changed to the U.S. Metric Association (USMA) in 1974.

*1971*
The U.S. Metric Study resulted in a Report to the Congress: A Metric America, A Decision Whose Time Has Come. The 13-volume report concluded that the U.S. should, indeed, "go metric" deliberately and carefully through a coordinated national program, and establish a target date 10 years ahead, by which time the U.S. would be predominately metric.

*1974*
The Education Amendments of 1974 (Public Law 92-380) encouraged educational agencies and institutions to prepare students to use the metric system of measurement as part of the regular educational program.
The initials "U.S." were added to the Metric Assocation name by the Board of Directors. The organization is now known as the "U.S. Metric Association, Inc." with the initialism "USMA".

*1975*
The Metric Conversion Act of 1975 (Public Law 94-168) passed by Congress. The Metric Act established the U.S. Metric Board to coordinate and plan the increasing use and voluntary conversion to the metric system. However, the Metric Act was devoid of any target dates for metric conversion.

*1979*
The Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) requires wine producers and importers to switch to metric bottles in seven standard [liter and milliliter] sizes.

*1980*
The Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) requires distilled spirits (hard liquor) bottles to conform to the volume of one of six standard metric [liter and milliliter] sizes.

There's a whole lotta Outlaws in the US that could get landed behind bars …..... 25mm dia…of course!


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## devann (Jan 11, 2011)

I have to agree with Loren above about his "three systems". I work with wood the same way and it's the easiest way to get a good fit.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Since I've got a lot of European tools, my shop uses both, and I've tried to go metric. Here's what's stopped me (and, yes, most of these are just variants of the first):


Familiarity with Imperial units.
My body doesn't match anything metric. My span is 6 feet, or 1.82 meters. I can eyeball an inch from my thumb. A centimeter isn't close to anything I've got on me.
Fractions work better than decimal for specifying accuracy. 
Millimeters are either too small (landscaping) or too big (woodworking) to be useful. Love my Talmeters, but I use 'em mostly as story sticks.
Working with other people: "Can you find me a board that's about 4 feet?" vs "Can you find me a board that's about one and a quarter meters?", and, whoops, I'm into fractions, so "Hey, I need a board that's a bit over twelve hundred millimeters"... and, we're back to Imperial units.

Besides, why should we give up something God gave the English for something invented by a Frenchman?

Of course the real question is: When specifying sh*tloads, do you use Metric or Imperial ones?


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## bigike (May 25, 2009)

I just want to learn how to the fractions on calculator and then learn how to read and use the metric system in my shop. I'm still having a hard time with the fractions, I stink at math anyway.


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

Both systems are completely arbitrary. You can do accurate measurement with either. The biggest impediment for converting to metric is the fact that you cannot easily go to the store and buy metric measured things. Ever looked for metric bolts? They are over in the bin that costs 10 times as much.

We also have a lot of fake metric items. You get 1220×2440 mm plywood. What size is that? It is the same size as the 4' x 8' ply but if you call it 1220×2440 it is metric. You get garbage like 25.4 mm tubing. It is the same 1" size as it was pre-metric but given in mm so now it is metric. Thanks a lot. You get this a lot on bike parts.

As long as we can't get things in real metric sizes, we don't have any real incentive to convert to metric measure. We miss out on the advantages and are left with more complex calculations.

I am going to go back to the kitchen and get another 355 ml Diet Coke.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Well said, *Dan Lyke*.

Something that always makes me laugh … Europeans like to laugh at Americans because we choose to use the "harder" Imperial system, and they like to laugh at Americans because most of us choose to use "easier" automatic transmission cars.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

More excerpts concerning US Metric measurements.

Significant Dates In U.S. Metric History
1791 - "Jefferson Report." Thomas Jefferson described England's weight and measures standards to Congress "on the supposition that the present measures are to be retained," and also outlined a decimal system of weights and measures of Jefferson's conception.

1821 - "Adams Report." John Quincy Adams recommended to Congress that they act to bring about uniformity in weights and measures, and described France's young Metric System as a praiseworthy attempt at uniformity.

1866 - "Law of 1866." Congress made use of the Metric System legally permissible throughout the United States.

1875 - "Treaty of the Meter." On May 20, the United States entered into a treaty with 17 powers establishing the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, and providing for its administration.

1890 - The United States officially received Metre No. 27 and Kilogram No. 20.

1893 - "The Mendenhall Order." The Secretary of the Treasury announced that the International metre and kilogram would be regarded as fundamental standards by the Office of Standard Weights and Measures (which became the National Bureau of Standards in 1901).

1902 - A bill brought before the Congress to make the Metric System mandatory within the Federal Government was defeated.

1957 - In September, a committee of the Organization of American States proposed that the Metric System be adopted throughout the Western Hemisphere.

1959 - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and the United States adopted common standards for the inch-pound system in metric terms. One inch was made equivalent to 2.54 centimetres and 1 pound was made equivalent to 0.453 592 37 kilograms. (The Coast and Geodetic Survey, which had used a slightly different conversion factor previously, retained their established relationship of 1 inch equaling 2.540.005 centimetres because of the extensive revisions which would be necessary to their charts and measurement records. The resulting foot based on this retained conversion is known as the U.S. Survey foot).

1965 - On May 24, the British Board of Trade announced that the government consider it desirable to adopt metric units in the United Kingdom, with a target date for conversion of 10 years.

1968 - An Act providing for a 3-year program to determine the impact of increasing use of the metric system on the United States was passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

1969 - New Zealand began an eight-year conversion to metric units.

1970 - Australia announced plans for a 10-year change over to SI metric measurement.

1970 - Canada announced its commitment to metric conversion.

1971 - The comprehensive report on the U.S. Metric study titled A Metric America: A Decision Whose Time Has Come is released.

1973 - The American National Standards Institute established the American National Metric Council with offices in Washington, D.C.

1974 - Congress passed the first official legislation concerning conversion to the metric system as part of Public Law 93-380, to extend and amend the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965. Under section 403 of this Act entitled, "Education for the Use of the Metric System of Measurement", it states "the metric system of measurement will have increased use in the United States, and as such, the metric system will become the dominant system of weights and measures in the United States."

1975 - Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act.

1976 - The U.S. Metric Board is appointed.

_ If you purchase some lumber, say a 2×4 and it suggests it's a 2"x4" size… but it is not, it's 3-1/2" x 1-1/2", so the question is: When is an inch not an inch? Confused?


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

It's really simple. Don't measure. 
Use story sticks. 
Miles? Forget miles, how long does it take to get there?
Milk is bought in gal.s, qt.s etc. I still just use enough to get my corn flakes soggy.
Scotch comes in fractions of a liter. How much do I need to cover the ice? I don't know or care. 
I buy gasoline by the gallon. Doesn't matter which system is used, it's still too damned high!


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## mark88 (Jun 8, 2009)

heres a question: if a mile is greater than a kilometer, than why is one degree ferinheit smaller than one degree celcius? does that make any sense at all? confuses me. why cant we all be on one system baffles me. im from canadia lol so everything is metric with the rest of the world, when is the u.s gonna join? but to tell you the truth i honestly prefer inches over cm anyday, unless it gets very precise.


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## lwllms (Jun 1, 2009)

You know, there's a lot more involved than just the markings on a rule. For instance look at building the most basic structure. On the footing you start building the foundation with 8" X 8" X 16" block. On top of the block you lay a plate that's 8" wide by some increment of 16" long. Floor joists are set on 12" or 16" centers depending on their dimension and planned load. Decking or subfloor is laid in 4' X 8' sheet goods. 8' high walls are constructed and sheeted with 4' X 8' sheeting on the outside and finished inside with 4' X 8' or 4' X 12' sheetrock. What's the metric measurement of an 8 X 8 X 16 block, a 4' X 8' sheet of material, a stud that works with 16" centers and gives a height that works with 4' X 8' sheet goods?

What's the metric equivalent of 16". There are hundreds of millions of structures in this country built on the 16" standard and materials for remodeling or repair need to be available. Appliances, plumbing fixtures and a lot of other things are designed to work within this system. I know some people struggle with math concepts involving fractions but try someday to do a remodel or build cabinets with 5' X 5' (it's not five feet but it's labeled that here) baltic birch ply from European suppliers for a lesson in the waste caused by changing just one component of the whole related system.

That Baltic birch play won't even fit in your truck properly. Will a pick-up with 5' between the wheel wells require wider highways? Probably and who's going to pay and why? All so you don't have to learn a few basic math principles involving fractions?

I don't understand what you're doing if you're trying to mark and layout woodworking projects down to 64th's of an inch. Use thousandths but only to fine tune things like the fit of a tenon in a mortise and you certainly don't need to mark or layout in such fine dimensions.


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## saucer (May 1, 2010)

People if this all you have to worry about in life is what system of mesurment to use you are sad. Use the one you want and quit bitching about it….


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## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

Here's a good question. If the U.S. goes entirely to metric, do we have to move our steering wheels to the right side of our vehicles also?


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Ya know the greatest thing about switching to metric is that the numbers get bigger….

"Why yes", Dan said coyly, "that is nearly 20 centimeters. Thank you for noticing."


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Who thinks the metric is somehow immune to translating into decimal equivalents for math purposes? Just divide 1000 millimeters into 67 equal spaces and you'll discover the answer.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Wow, this is a whole lot more info than I expected…

Saucer: You can't just use the one you want in this country. I want to use metric but my router bits are all ized in imperial, the lumber store sells 3/4" plywood and 4/4" hardwood, my routers take 1/2 " shafts, my tabe saw blades are 10" with a 1/8" or 3/32" kerf, etc. etc. etc. If I use metric then I have to use both which makes everything even more difficult.

Miles125: no one thinks that, it's what I do. The point is that I have to do that and it requires a calculator which increases the chance of mistakes and it sucks.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

More seriously, to lwllms point, is: which threads am I going to standardize on? This manifests itself in two ways:

1. Precision in thread-driven tools. One of the reasons I'm headed towards Metric is that my hand-held router fine-depth and fence offset adjusters are metric threads, "go 2.54 turns out" isn't a reasonable measurement. On the other hand, my router lift and mill are threaded with Imperial unit rods.
2. Tapped holes and threaded rods. What size rod do I need to run a 4mm thread die on to it? What size hole do I drill to tap with a 4mm thread?


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""I swear the number one cause for mistakes in my shop is misscalulations due to the stupidity of a system based on fractions. It would be so much easier if it were in Metric."" 
Don

My point is they both have to be calculated in fractions, which for math purposes we do in decimal equivalents. Which is fractions. One is no more advantageous than the other.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Legislation + Mathematics = Indiana House Bill #246


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

One of the reasons manf. did not go to metric back during the Carter years is because, at that time , any metric hardware cost a lot more then the old style. Manufacturers refused to be gouged by our forign "friends" so they did not switch. It all came down to $ back then. I am not sure if that is still the case.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*How about a bit of confusion: Linear measurement. Notice there is only ONE base unit, the Meter in the metric system.*

120 fathoms (exactly).

1 cable's length------------ 720 feet (exactly).
219 meters.

1 centimeter (cm)----------- 0.393 7 inch.

1 chain (ch)-------------- 66 feet (exactly).
(Gunter's or surveyors) 
20.1168 meters

1 decimeter (dm)------------ 3.937 inches.

1 dekameter (dam)----------- 32.808 feet.

1 fathom---------------- 6 feet (exactly).
1.828 8 meters.

1 foot (ft)-------------- 0.304 8 meter (exactly).
1 furlong (fur)------------ 660 feet (exactly).
1/8 U.S. statute mile (exactly).
201.168 meters.

10 chains (surveyors) (exactly).

[1 hand]---------------- 4 inches.

1 inch (in)-------------- 2.54 centimeters (exactly).

1 kilometer (km)------------ 0.621 mile.

1 league (land)------------ 3 U.S. statute miles (exactly).
4.828 kilometers.

1 link (li) (Gunter's or surveyors)-- 0.66 foot (exactly).
0.201 168 meter.

1 meter (m)-------------- 39.37 inches.
1.094 yards.

1 micrometer-------------- 0.001 millimeter (exactly).
0.000 039 37 inch.

1 mil----------------- 0.001 inch (exactly).
0.025 4 millimeter (exactly).

1 mile (mi) (U.S. statute)11----- 5280 feet survey (exactly).
1.609 kilometers.

1 mile (mi) (international)------ 5280 feet international (exactly).

1 mile (mi) (international nautical)12 1.852 kilometers (exactly).
1.151 survey miles.

1 millimeter (mm)----------- 0.039 37 inch.

1 nanometer (nm)----------- 0.001 micrometer (exactly).
0.000 000 039 37 inch.
1 Point (typography)---------- 1/72 inch (approximately).
0.351 millimeter.

0.013 837 inch (exactly).

1 rod (rd), pole, or perch------- 16 1/2 feet (exactly).
5.029 2 meters.

1 yard (yd)-------------- 0.914 4 meter (exactly).

UNITS OF AREA

1 acre13-------------- 43 560 square feet (exactly).
0.405 hectare.

1 are--------------- 119.599 square yards.
0.025 acre.

1 hectare------------- 2.471 acre.

[1 square (building)]-------- 100 square feet.

1 square centimeter (cm2)------ 0.155 square inch.

1 square decimeter (dm2)------ 15.500 square inches.

1 square foot (ft2)--------- 929.030 square centimeters.

1 square inch (in2)--------- 6.451 6 square centimeters (exactly).

1 square kilometer (km2)------ 247.104 acre.
0.386 square mile.

1 square meter (m2)--------- 1.196 square yards.
10.764 square feet.

1 square mile (mi2)--------- 258.999 hectares.

1 square millimeter (mm2)------ 0.002 square inch.

1 square rod (rd2), sq pole, or sq perch------------ 25.293 square meters.

1 square yard (yd2)--------- 0.836 square meter.

*Some more:

UNITS OF CAPACITY OR VOLUME*

1 barrel (bbl), liquid--------- 31 to 42 gallons.14

1 barrel (bbl), standard for fruits, 7056 cubic inches.
vegetables, and other dry------ 105 dry quarts.
commodities, except cranberries 3.281 bushels, struck measure.
1 barrel (bbl), standard, cranberry-- 86 45/64 dry quarts.
2.709 bushels, struck measure.

5 826 cubic inches.

1 bushel (bu) (U.S.) struck measure-- 2150.42 cubic inches (exactly).
35.239 liters.

[1 bushel, heaped (U.S.)]------- 2 747.715 cubic inches.
1.278 bushels, struck measure.15

[1 bushel (bu) (British Imperial) 1.032 U.S. bushels, struck measure
(struck measure)]----------- 2219.36 cubic inches.

1 cord (cd) (firewood)--------- 128 cubic feet (exactly).

1 cubic centimeter (cm3)-------- 0.061 cubic inch.

1 cubic decimeter (dm3)------- 61.024 cubic inches.

1 cubic foot (ft3)----------- 7.481 gallons.
28.316 cubic decimeters.
1 cubic inch (in3)------------ 4.433 fluid drams.
16.387 cubic centimeters.

0.554 fluid ounce.

1 cubic meter (m3)----------- 1.308 cubic yards.

1 cubic yard (yd3)----------- 0.765 cubic meter.
1 cup, measuring------------ 237 milliliters.
1/2 liquid pint (exactly).

8 fluid ounces (exactly).

1 dekaliter (daL)----------- 2.642 gallons.
1.135 pecks.
1 dram, fluid (or liquid) (fl dr 0.226 cubic inch.
or f) (U.S.)------------ 3.697 milliliters.
1.041 British fluid drachms.
[1 drachm, fluid (fl dr) (British)]-- 0.217 cubic inch.
3.552 milliliters.
1 gallon (gal) (U.S.)--------- 3.785 liters.
0.833 British gallon.
128 U.S. fluid ounces (exact-ly).
[1 gallon (gal) (British Imperial)]-- 1.201 U.S. gallons.
4.546 liters.
160 British fluid ounces (exactly).
1 gill (gi)-------------- 4 fluid ounces (exactly).
0.118 liter.

7.219 cubic inches.

1 hectoliter (hL)----------- 26.418 gallons.
2.838 bushels.
1 liter (1 cubic decimeter exactly)-- 0.908 dry quart.
61.025 cubic inches
1 milliliter (mL)----------- 16.231 minims.
0.061 cubic inch.

0.271 fluid dram.

1 ounce, fluid (or liquid) (fl oz 1.805 cubic inches.
or f)(U.S.)------------- 29.573 milliliters.
1.041 British fluid ounces.-
[1 ounce, fluid (fl oz) (British)]--- 1.734 cubic inches.
28.412 milliliters.

0.961 U.S. fluid ounce.

1 peck (pk)-------------- 8.810 liters.

1 pint (pt), dry----------- 33.600 cubic inches.
- 0.551 liter.

1 pint (pt), liquid---------- 28.875 cubic inches exactly.
0.473 liter.
1 quart (qt), dry (U.S.)-------- 1.101 liters.
0.969 British quart.
1 quart (qt), liquid (U.S.)------ 0.946 liter.
0.833 British quart.
[1 quart (qt) (British)]-------- 1.032 U.S. dry quarts.
1.201 U.S. liquid quarts.
1 tablespoon, measuring-------- 15 milliliters.
4 fluid drams.
1/2 fluid ounce (exactly).
1 teaspoon, measuring--------- 5 milliliters.
1-1/3 fluid drams.16
1 water ton (English)--------- 224 British Imperial gallons.
(exactly).

270.91 U.S. gallons.

UNITS OF MASS

1 assay ton17 (AT)---------- 29.167 grams.

1 carat©-------------- 200 milligrams (exactly).
3.086 grains.

1 dram apothecaries (dr ap or )-- 60 grains (exactly).
3.888 grams.

1 dram avoirdupois (dr avdp)----- 27-11/32 (= 27.344) grains.
1.777 grams.

1 gamma -------------- 1 microgram (exactly).

1 grain---------------- 64.798 91 milligrams (exactly).

1 gram (g)--------------- 15.432 grains.
0.035 ounce, avoirdupois.

1 hundredweight, gross or long18 112 pounds (exactly).
(gross cwt)------------- 50.802 kilograms.

1 hundredweight, gross or short 100 pounds (exactly).
(cwt or net cwt)----------- 45.359 kilograms.

1 kilogram (kg)------------ 2.205 pounds.

1 microgram (ug) [the Greek letter mu 
in combination with the letter g]-- 0.000 001 gram (exactly).

1 milligram (mg)------------ 0.015 grain.
1 ounce, avoirdupois (oz avdp)----- 0.911 troy or apothecaries ounce.
28.350 grams.

437.5 grains (exactly).

1 ounce, troy or apothecaries 480 grains (exactly).
(oz t or oz ap or )-------- 1.097 avoirdupois ounces.
31.103 grams.

1 pennyweight (dwt)--------- 1.555 grams.

1 point---------------- 0.01 carat.
2 milligrams.
1 pound, avoirdupois (lb avdp)----- 1.215 troy or apothecaries pounds.
453.592 37 grams (exactly).

7000 grains (exactly).

1 pound, troy or apothecaries 5760 grains (exactly).
(lb t or lb ap)----------- 0.823 avoirdupois pound.
373.242 grams.

1 scruple (s ap or )-------- 20 grains (exactly).
1.296 grams.
1 ton, gross or long19--------- 1.12 net tons (exactly).
1.016 metric tons.
1 ton, metric (t)----------- 0.984 gross ton.
1.102 net tons.
1 ton, net or short---------- 0.893 gross ton.
0.907 metric ton.

*Can you see that the metric system has far less marring units that don't even relate to each other?*


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Roger*,

That is a megagram of units!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Yes Chuck - that's the Big Picture*. Too many get all get het up on Gallons, fractions and cubic inches ….... but that's only a very small part of needing a universal, accurate and simple measurement system in place. Using the old units forever will only isolate us damage our chances for exporting goods.
Kennedy said it - *"Do what is good for your Country"*, not what an old fashioned measurement system can do for you--- or something like that.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the lesson in Geography - who would ever have known that? Maybe we should call ourselves "Backwoods America"? and wave our Chinese made US Flags !!!!!!


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

At one time a rod was determined by lining up the left feet of the first 15 men coming out of church.

I often wondered if the Catholic rod was longer or shorter than the Lutheran rod of the Methodist rod.


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## saucer (May 1, 2010)

For those that want to use the metric system they do make metric router bits, saw blades etc so go buy them and then you can use that system all the time. As for the lumber if you cant convert 3/4 to metric then get a different hobby. I can go to my shop and build anything in either system, all you have to do is slow down and thing about what you are doing. I wonder if they had this problem 200 years ago in New England. I bet they used alot of story sticks in there day. I still havn't found a tape measure that was used in 1811.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rich:
I'm not really sure about those religious Rods but I'm pretty sure the Catholic Rod has it's tip covered and the Jewish Rod has a piece cut off the end. Lengths vary. Anyone have any additional info?


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I work in aerospace, I deal with standards everyday, and I know that the cost of forcing an industry to change to a different set of standards would be prohibitive. Reagan did the right thing to not force the US industry to accept a different standard. The standards that we all work to, is our choice and my industry chooses not to use the metric system, not because one standard is "Better" than the other, but because the cost would be too much, to switch. I don't think people understand how costly it is to create standard, such as a bolt, a nut, or a washer, and when you multiply that cost again by the millions of standards that would need to be changed, it's a huge thing.
I know I uses the word standard to describe the measuring system, and those things we build with them.

On a personal note, I like fractions when working with wood. Maybe it's because that is what I have always used. At work, I work in thousandths of inches, sometimes in millimeters. It's all good, as long as I know what it is before I start working.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jeepturner:
I really do appreciate and understand what you are saying, but just for one moment consider how much money we are losing and will lose by NOT embracing the worldwide measuring units? We are not investing in the future, we (corporations) are just wringing out the last penny of a dying horse, soon we won't have anything to sell internationally measured and manufactured in a defunct system.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Don't forget that 1 board foot = 0.00235973722 cubic meters.

Next time you go to HD, ask where the construction grade 0.0508 by 0.1016s are - even though we all know that they are really 0.0381 by 0.0889s.

You know what they say, "Give them 0.0254 meters and they will take 1,609.344 meters."


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Roger, I see certain segments changing over to the metric, but we wouldn't be competitive if we choose to spend our resources retooling everything. It really makes no difference to my customers what kind of thread is on the bolt that holds something together as long as the machine I sell him is competitively priced and makes the customer money.
Some of the standards that I work with were written in the thirties, and the widgets that we make to those standards are still doing the function they were made for. 
Change is inevitable, and as new standards are released you have to judge the benefits of one system to the next. 
The reason we are loosing our manufacturing base has nothing to do with the way we measure things. Yes US corporate thinking, or lack thereof does have an affect on our manufacturing base. 
My products are spread around the world, and I have never had a customer complain about the way we define our product.


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## saucer (May 1, 2010)

Since the world is coming to an end because the USA is not using the Metric system, i am going to the shop and be productive and build something. Hope my planer knows the difference between inches and mm.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""Metric makes much more sense because it is already decimal."" 
GarageWoodworks

Say what? Fractions of an inch are no different than millimeters being a fraction of a centimeter or meter. They are both fractions. And they both have to be calculated using decimal equivalents. If you mutiply 4.54 millimeters by 100, you get a totally different and amazingly wrong answer if you choose to stick only in whole millimeters (like using 4 or 5 millimeters instead of 4.54 in my example) thinking they don't have to be broken down further. They do. Just like inches do.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Garagewoodworks: I guess you said it all in the last line. The USA, Liberia and Myanmar constitutes of
*365,000,000,000 as opposed to the rest at 6.800,000,000,000,000*
We are on the losing side.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I just want to learn how to the fractions on calculator and then learn how to read and use the metric system in my shop. I'm still having a hard time with the fractions, I stink at math anyway.

When in the usa I asked a friend of mine to buy for me a metric//imperial calculator with easy changing from one to the other flick of a switch.I bought it because I had just bought the american made incra dovetail jig which is useless by the way for dovetails at least t6hats what I have found.Alistair


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Garage, 16/64ths is the largest, drill. And for what it's worth the US does not force an arbitrary standard on it's business. It is a free market. When it becomes profitable to change the businesses will.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Ps forgot to addd ,metric is the best way we in the uk changed from imperial to metric which is much easier to use.Alistair


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

GarageWoodworks….Fractions (like 3/8") are for laypersons. Skilled woodworkers know decimal equivalents of fractions by heart. Because that is the way you can easily perform math with them.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jeeepturner:
I'm a retired Mechanical Engineering Designer and you'd think an old fart like me would want to keep the "measurement Status Quo", but I don't. I want my grandchildren and country to be able to "survive" in the future. We isolate ourselves and go nowhere, thinking only of today.
I understand why people are scared of the metric system and won't "move and inch" off the old system, but I'll hold my ground and won't give in a mm.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Roger, I don't mind working in mm. It sure would employ a bunch of ME's to force the change over, Maybe that's why you want it, hehe. Just joking no offense intended. 
I don't think we are isolated because of the imperial measurements we use to build our products. Our products are all over the world. The buying choices of the American consumer will have more impact than the way we define our products.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jeepturner:
Yeah our products are all over the world ….....BUT going back to WWII aftermath, US made goods were the only ones available, so every country had no choice but to import from the US. They were the glory years, but nobody was smart enough to realize that the gravy train would not last forever, especially if the exported equipment was in a "foreign" measurement system. Of course their industries came back after 15 or so years and produced goods to their consolidated system, tooling was made for the future - not the past with a goal of being able to supply the largest market as well as the home market.
To this end here in the US, we would sooner commit suicide than embracing the World's system. We WILL suffer if we don't.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

GarageWoodworks:
Yeah and even the British don't use it anymore …... lol


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I use both and it's not that difficult to convert from one to the other. I really don't have a problem with either one. Back when we made cabinets we used the 32mm system on a lot of cabinets and all of our panel processing equipment was European and metric. The metric system is fine and for some things it's easier. However, the English system is fine also. Back in engineering school we'd just jump back and forth. Another way to go about it is just think in thousands of an inch. I'll tell you one thing that gripes my ass though. I get real mad when a metric manufacturer calls a 6mm chisel a 1/4" chisel because there's a big difference. Hey, when I want a 1/4" chisel I want a quarter inch chisel and when I want a 6mm chisel I want a 6mm chisel.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

No. And I've never had a fluid ounce injection either.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

On the "base 10 vs base 2" debate: I'm a computer geek. I spend a good bit of my life dealing with base 2 and hating base 10. For instance, in the stock way that computers deal with decimal numbers adding .1 together 100 times gives you 9.99999999999998, not 10.

I'll bet that in a century or so the kids will be complaining that this base 10 stuff is antiquated and it'd be nice to go to a system which used fractions based on powers of 2.

I'm tellin' ya: As computers become more pervasive and we adapt to them more strongly, Imperial units will prevail once again.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Sorry Dan, they are all zeros and ones to me.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

If only we had eight fingers like most cartoon characters, our technology would be far ahead of where we are today.

(I mean born with eight fingers - woodworking accidents do not count!)


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

But Chuck, WE DO have only 8 fingers, the other two are thumbs. Any chance there is a toxic waste dump near you?


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Good point Roger - I should have said "digits".

But we do have a polydactyl cat.


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## Boneski (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm born and bred in Australia under the metric system.
Imagine the shock when I got a job in the oilfield and found that everything was measured in inches, feet, gallons, barrels and pounds! Another oddity is that SOME of our stuff is measured in tenths of an inch, for the purpose of measuring these units we have special tape measures.
It's been a steep learning curve but for the record, I use both metric and imperial units in the workshop, although mainly metric.


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## rogerw (Jan 14, 2011)

Well if you knew anything about digital electronics you would know that it is also based on the "half" system, i.e., 2,4,8,16,32,64,128, etc. Do you think this was by accident? Does this mean that this too will have to conform to someone else's way of thinking someday?

I was taught fractional, use fractional, and prefer fractional. Why should i have to learn something new at this point in my life? Teach the newer generation your way, sell them the tools, and melt mine down after I die.

If I need metric, I'll go get my mechanic tools that have been forced on me and head out to the driveway.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Miles125:
Your right that they both require "fractions" but in Metric they are always a factor of 10. In imperial every level of granularity is a different factor. It's much easier to see the difference between something like .75 and .765 than it is to see the difference bewteen 3/4 and 49/64. Also, with 20+ years experience I'm pretty sure I qualify as a "skilled" woodworker but I don't have all the decimal equivillants memorized. I'm sure it would help if I did but I can barely remember my own birthdate any more.

Garageworks:
Great example. I can figure that out with pencil and paper (maybe in my head if I've had enough coffee) but I do have to "figure" it out. If they were in metric it would obvious, no figuring required.

Dixie:
Reading a tape measure isn't the issue, we can all do that just fine. The issues are with calculations. And it's really impossile to rationally argue that the imperial system is easier for calculations. The reason many of us want to use Metric is because it's a better tool. Who the heck doesn't want a better tool?

Mel:
The initial cost of changing would undoubtedly be high but the long term cost of not changing is much higher. Not signing that act was one of the stupidest things Reagan ever did.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Amen to all that Don - on the money


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

GarageWoodworks:
Computers do to use base 2 because it's superior (for computers which are based on transistors which are essentially just on/off switches.) It's got nothing to do with convenience. And "base 2" is not the same thing as a fractional system based on halfs like our stupid imperial system.


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Maybe we should just use this style of math, it's about as rational as the imperial system:


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

GarageWoodworks:
I did watch it. I don't see how it shows that base 10 is superior. He's showing how binary math works.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)




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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

GarageWoodworks:
The reason they are cheap is because they are simple. And it's not just about the electronics, it's also about the software development. Some of the earlist computers were built in base 10 and they switched to binary pretty quick due to the simplicity and efficiency of both the hardware and the software. That simplicity and efficiency is exactly what makes it superior. Neither that article or video make any statements about base 10 being superior. The video just shows how much simpler binary is and the article just says that base 2 is simpler and base 10 would be more expensive and then explains how binary works.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

On the superiority of one system over another, with base 10 on my 10 fingers, I can count to 10. With base 2, I can count all the way to 1023.


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## Tim_456 (Jul 22, 2008)

Forcing everyone using the same measurement system is like forcing everyone to speak the same language. Different words mean the same thing, different measurement scales measure the same distance.

Anyway, for me metric is good when converting from smaller to larger units but there is no benefit when making one measurement and if anything, the imperial measurement gives you the additional division by 3 that the metric system does not.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Dan - now I see it.*
So using the base 10 you will need the fingers of 2-1/2 hands and for 2 base you'll need 255-3/4 hands.
But where do all the thumbs go? or is this an example when the thumb does not rule?

Thanks for the clarification bud, I'll rest easier tonight. )


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## beckerswoodworks (Dec 26, 2009)

Great point Dan!

Tim, since when is a 1/3" supported in the Imperial system? 1/3 of a foot may work but you can't do it in inches and thats the level of granularity where most of the problems are. And this is why the metric system would have been base 12 if it were up to me.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Roger, yeah, of course you've gotta have a pretty big shop to have all the combinations of fractional hands, but with enough tablesaws and enough woodworkers you can accomplish anything…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Good show Dan, had a great time today, Thanks y'all.


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## CantBurn (Aug 30, 2010)

I'll tell you why, because my forefathers fought against tyranny for the freedom to make the decision to use inches and fractions, cups and gallons. I'm just kidding.

It's really because researchers found that if we converted systems, it would cause all of our computer systems to crash and create a disaster known as Y2Kilo. This disaster would send the carpentry trade back to a time when humans lived in stone houses in a place called "Bedrock". Wait..that's not right either.

I don't actually know. But I do know that anywhere there is a project I have built, if you check around, you can find fractions and solutions written everywhere.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

OK Father Roger, I repent. I accept your over whelming argument. Henceforth from today, I will use only metric units. I will no longer use Imperialist non perfect measuring units and devices. I shall destroy all imperfect Starrett tools and all other over priced, no-comprehensible measuring devices. I will be a metric man from this day forward.
Where's the Holy Water? I gotta gargle after this whopper.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Rand, it looks like it's waaaaaay past your bedtime.


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## steliart (Jan 15, 2011)

For me things are even more confused. As a designer I love to CAD my furniture or jigs and fixtures. The problem is which system do I use for mesuring. Imperial is so confusing because it translates on softwares in fractions and decimals. Even the convrsions are not accurate. So if I want 10mm it goes as 25/64 but this is also wrong because 10mm=0.3937 and 25/64=0.3906 and even if we forget about that 25/64+25/64=35/32 to 10+10=20 or just say 1+1=2cm… so for accurency mast use metric, and when you give them a plan in metric they say don't you have that in inches, so you need two set of plans.
Lumber and wood are called in inches but they are mesured in mm. Don't you make the mistake I did at my begining I ordered 2×4 hoping that I will get at least 10×5cm, nope I got 95×45mm so everything was short.
So by the time you wait for the system to change, it's either you use a story stick to mesure and be more accurate or just get a new inexspensive metric tape.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't get it! If you prefer metric - use it. If you don't switch back and forth, there isn't a whole lot to learn. Metric in the wood shop is simple. Even I can do it!


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## hooky (Apr 25, 2009)

Steliart you have just described why the hubble telescope didnt work

as it was a joint venture and parts made in europe and america the conversions beween measuring systems wernt accurate enough for the fine measuremeants

Hooky


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## steliart (Jan 15, 2011)

Hooky you are correct but at least they went back and fix that hubble problem 
As far as I am concerned when it comes to building from plans I will use a measuring tape that the plan asks for (inches or mm). When designing one I will go for metric because for me personally 1+1=2 is simpler. Why the US is still in impreial, I have no answer for it and maybe the complications to change to metric are far more complicated that we think and as other friends pointed out here. 
Bottom line is… to use whatever works best for you and dismiss nothing because we still gonna need that undersize 3/4 router bit for plywood.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

So I have just a minute before I have to leave for work. Yes back to the world of making money, and I will be dealing in .001". The US does not mandate to it's industry what kind of measuring system they will use. When it becomes profitable to change over certain industries will. Some new ones that have started up already have. The question was, Why do we use the imperial system instead of the "superior" metric. I think the question has been answered, even if some don't like the answer, it will still remain the same.

For what it's worth, the US using the imperial measurements is *not* going to lead to the end of the world.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

To be serious, since I joined LJ I have learned how many people use the metric system and when they are giving dimensions, I've had to learn and familiarize myself with this system in order to visualize sizes. I have found it is very simple to learn once you get past the initial fear of it. This should be an interesting learning experience.


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## matt5 (Jan 12, 2011)

I use the inches and fractions because I cant find a metric tape measure with inches on it…..and then there are nautical miles ….not metric, not really standard….

(have I been a member long enough to crack jokes??)


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

In my day job, I measure things by the thousandths of an inch, .001", or sometimes smaller. When first employed I thought a ¼" was close enough, but now if I am .002" off I have to rework. Ok, fractions, since I use hundredths or thousandths of an inch to measure and then see that something is called out as 23/64ths then I just divide 64 into 23 and get 0.359. Working this way I can use the larger measurements of fractions for general woodworking and the smaller thousandths measurements for tighter tolerances.


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

matt5, yes to your question and just an FYI for the sake of what the heck…
A nautical mile is based on the circumference of the planet Earth. If you were to cut the Earth in half at the equator, you could pick up one of the halves and look at the equator as a circle. You could divide that circle into 360 degrees. You could then divide a degree into 60 minutes. A minute of arc on the planet Earth is 1 nautical mile. This unit of measurement is used by all nations for air and sea travel.


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## steliart (Jan 15, 2011)

We can huff and buff all we want, the fact remains, metric is easier and more accurate.

As for tapes try this ones I am sure everyone can affort one.






If your measuring way works for you then fine, but if you have metric or imperial plans that you have difficulty to recalculate, then this calculator may come useful to you.
1+1=2 it's easier than ¼ + ¼= ½ and lets not try to excuse the reason of why you still work with any of the two systems.

Question: Which is the best wine in the world?

Answer: The one I like best!


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## donjohn24 (Oct 15, 2010)

Talking about metric versus Imperial measurements reminds me of the story about a Scandinavian country that decided to switch from driving on the left - like the UK - to driving on the right.
As it was going to be very expensive to change road layouts, signage, etc. over all the country in one go, they decided to do it in stages!


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## daltxguy (Sep 7, 2007)

Believe it or not even the US is already 99% metric - they have to be to deal with anyone else in the world. Look at the labels of anything on a store shelf in the US and it's always in both units. It's only the main visible measurements and the everyday language which remain as US measures only.
It's bollocks to use the excuse that it is too expensive to switch over - most business already have out of necessity to do business.

In woodworking, since the imperial measures have previously established standards which are likely to be with us forever, pretty much both units have to be used no matter where you are. I use a mix of both, depending on which is easier for what I am working on. I have a tape measure with both units on it.

There is no better or worse in measurement - because they all measure the same thing, just different units. It's not speaking the same language that's make it painful.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I worry about the day that the Department of Transportation replaces the speed limit signs that say 65 with ones that say 105.


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## MShort (Jan 15, 2009)

This thread is quite the education-- Historically, Mathmatically and politically all in one place… Alot of good information here. Thanks for for all of the commentary.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

Go ahead and use the metric system if you like. No one is telling you to use another. Simply convert one to the other just as those that do not like metric do when they encounter it. Not a big deal.


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## matt5 (Jan 12, 2011)

As long as we are discussing mertic system, does it bother anyone when you ask someone how much an item weighs and they respond in kilograms? My dog food bag says 17.5 pounds (7.94 kg) one is weight the other is mass. Maybe I have to much free time on my hands.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

matt5:
Oops, sorry both of those measures are actual weight definitions.
Think of it, if you get enough full dog food bags you could end up with a TON.
Now would that be a short TON, a Long Ton or a Metric TON?


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## CaptainSkully (Aug 28, 2008)

I infinitely prefer the metric system, being a Mechanical Engineer, but I think the English system provides most of the content for our pathetic Public School System. If we didn't have to spend years learning how many teaspoons are in a tablespoon, tablespoons per cup, cups per pint, pints in a quart, quarts in a gallon, inches per foot, feet per mile, and God help us fractions, then we could be doing calculus when we're eight years old, while our brains can still absorb stuff like that. Enough said, I'm going to go watch American Idol instead of reading, but first I'd like to buy a vowel in the form of a question.


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## matt5 (Jan 12, 2011)

No not really. The bag of food weighs 17.5 pounds here on earth, but that same bag will weigh less on the moon, but it still has a mass of 7.95 KG, no matter where it is. The metric unit for force is the Newton, not the kg. but I guess it dosent really matter.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

matt5:
Everything weighs less on the the Moon compared to mother Earth, that's the gravity of the situation.
Actually I have a Catahoula which I feed local foods of this planet, I have no idea what I would feed a Moon Dog. lol

Great fun Matt, have a great day.


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## matt5 (Jan 12, 2011)

I guess moon pies…..Cheers.


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## drfunk (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm in the US. Started kindergarten in '79 - ended with an MS Physics in '00 - Metric system all throughout. In '01 I went to work for a major aerospace manufacturer - all Imperial everywhere. So Imperial in fact, they use Rankine's to measure temperature.

My personal opinion is that because of the US philosophy of "regulated business is bad - mmkay!", the Federal Gov. is loathe to tell major manufacturers to change their tooling and retrain their workforces. Also, as we found out later when Stalin was cloning the B-29, having our own measurement system can give us a tactical advantage when another country is trying to steal our technology.

It's all about the $$$.


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## BobG (Apr 17, 2010)

And then there is the neighboring countries that were building a limited access highway. The problem came in where the road met. One country was a "Drive on the right side, The other was a drive on the left".

Not a problem to the engineers, they just did an over-under and lo - and - behold you were driving on the opposite side without realizing it.

Safe exchange until this 80 year old man suddenly discovered he was on the wrong side of the road and crossed the median! He had completely missed the posted warning signs along the last 3 miles of highway.

Which is right Metric or Imperial! right side or Left!??

As far as metric goes to each his own. I can when necessary do the conversion but my preferred method is Imperial. All my tools are setup for decimal!

That story about the road actually happened, I forget which 2 countries it was, but you could google it to find out.


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## Eric_S (Aug 26, 2009)

Could you imagine how much it would cost to convert all mile markers and speed limit signs throughout the US to metric? That alone would be in the billions probably with labor. Then add in all all the odometers and everything on every single vehicle/train/airplane etc and that just adds to it. Now factor in the education requirement to focus on metric. Now add in having to recalibrate every single manufacturing machine. I dont know if you realize how difficult and lengthy of a process this would be. Perhaps they could say something along the lines of "have all things converted to metric by 2050 and then we'll make it the official measurement of the us".


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Eric-s,
It's already been on the US law books for over 100 years, but never actually done.
But what an opportunity to have full employment to make the change, and "to boot" we get to join the rest of the world's measurement system. Good for exports?
We should have done it a long while ago, just too many whiners and pussy cats to make it happen for the good of the country.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The big advantage of the imperial system is keeping us mentally sharp. Not much to moving a decimel point over, but when you have 17/64 and to add to 5/16 it separates the men from the boys ;-))


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## BobG (Apr 17, 2010)

Eric you are right on the ""Money""!!

Roger, several years ago when I was working full time the government decided to try to re-institute the law with financial help to industries that had less than 40 employees. The company I was with made several changes to equipment and measuring instruments. They always broke! We had more call backs because of incorrect sizes and measurements. We just had to revert back to Imperial not a chance with metric. Don't get me wrong I'm not dissing the system it does work! Logistically it is just very involved trying to convert.

You are right we are going to have to get in line with the rest of the world if we wish to continue to compete!

I learned to do the conversion on paper, but for the life of me I cannot do it now. too many years have past.


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## donjohn24 (Oct 15, 2010)

Topomax - when I was a child we would be given arithmetic problems such as 'what is the total cost of three and three-quarter yards of curtain material, priced at three and elevenpence three-farthings per yard.' At least you had dollars and cents.


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## steliart (Jan 15, 2011)

I have been watching closely this topic from the start and I have noticed that the majority prefers metric, so as a gallup it looks that metric should have been more popular at least in the woodworking community, but it's not. Instead of waiting for the US Gov. to change system (good luck) you can start small, make your plans also in metric, post them or sell plans in metric for woodworkers, so that it starts becoming more accepted and popular, and when the companies realize that things are moving in that direction or by popular demand is that direction they will turn slowly as well. In Europe wood is nomnal in imperial but it measures in metric.
So I am curious, if tomorrow someone posts a nice interesting and tempting woodworking plan for FREE to download in two versions, metric and imperial, I wonder wich one will get the most downloads from our US friends.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

After responding to this post way back in the beginning, I kind of forgot about it. Now, reading through the next 120 posts, I think that this is pretty much the best thread ever on LJ's. Hilarious at times, informative (I'm looking at you Roger Clark…amazing set of historical facts on US metric system legislation), and probably for the first time on LJ's, over 100 posts and no flame wars yet.


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## Uncle_Salty (Dec 26, 2009)

I am an advocate of measuring… as I teach measuring to middle schoolers and high schoolers! We might spend a 5 or 6 hours on the English system, and some of the kids "get it." Of course, we spend about 2 hours on the Metric system, and the kids "get it" right away.

Then I break the bad news and tell 'em that we are still using the English system and they are stuck with it!

The Metric system, is arbitrary… to a point. The "meter's" origin, is as follows: Specifically, one ten-millionth of the distance from the North Pole to the equator, along the meridian running near Dunkirk in France.

A little more scientifically repeatable than, say… the length of Charlemagne's foot or the King of Englands distance for the tip of his nose to the end of his middle finger (two reported methods of the the English linear measuring sytem), thus the term "Ruler."

I also make my students do several drafing assignments in Metric. They have Metric scales, but many want to convert to English. I really don't care…

But the Metric System is easier!

Too bad my wood supplier, and the rest of the United States Woodworking industry doesn't simply change over!

BTW… the Metric System was invented long before Karl Marx, the credited founder of Industrial age Communism, was even a twinkle in his daddy's eye!


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

If God had ment for us AMERICANS to use metric measurements he would speak French. My God! what have I said!

Now! There's a good old American logical reason for 'ya. "chuckle chuckle"

Pop


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Don Johnson* That is over the top!! )

I agree the bottomline is the expense of conversion. The conversion is the down fall of most. If people just start using in rather than tryhing to make a conversion in ther minds to see nhbow far a kilometer or a meter is, it would be quite simple. When the average cashier hands you back your change when you give them a 20 and 58 cents for a $19.42 bill, You can see what society as a whole is up against.

I think most distinguished mechanical and trades people would love to go metric, but the average guy that shows up for a paycheck doesn't want to be bothered with the effort to make the change.


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## volpeveneers (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't know if it's just me. I'm having the hardest time using metric. How many kilograms are in a 2×4


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

*volpeveneers* - 
It depends - are you using Fahrenheit or Centigrade?


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

For woodworkers, I don't think either system is superior to the other. It is a matter of what you are accustomed to and how accurate your tools are to measure for fit of parts. I used the English system because I was raised and trained on it. I can work in the metric system but not any more accurately than with English. I was a tool maker and worked in thousandths and ten thousandths of an inch when necessary. Never worked on anything requiring millionths of and inch . I naturally convert fractions to decimals in my head and I'm working in a system based on 10 - only parts of an inch rather than a meter . Now I use a digital caliper from HF and work in thousandths even for wood. This fit me fine with it and I'm sticking with it for the rest of time that I have.
If one likes metric, that's okay too…..........HF calipers have a Metric to English conversion button on them!!!!!!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The HF calipers would be worth it just for the Metric to English conversion button when migraines are on ;-)


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## steliart (Jan 15, 2011)

Been good in calculating in the English system that only prooves that you are good at it. This does not mean that the system is easier. The point here is for an easier system to benefit everyone. Personally when I have a plan that's in inches, I simply get my imperial measuring tape and work on it as I would do with a metric tape, but that is not enough, just take a good look of the incompatibility between US and the rest of the countries that uses metric. Imagine the market benefits and the open market with so many millions of potential customers in the other countries if US had metric.


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## Roger491127 (Feb 2, 2011)

I was 17 in september 1967 when Sweden changed to driving on the right side of the road. I had already been hitchhiking around in Europe since I was 15 so I was used to changing over at the border to Sweden. On the last day we drove on the left side I hitchhiked down from the north of Sweden to Göteborg to get a job on a ship. I arrived to Göteborg 10 minutes before all traffic in Sweden was stopped and 100 000's of volunteers started removing the black plastic from the new traffic signs and covered the old traffic signs with black plastic.

At four o'clock Sunday morning taxis were allowed to start driving again, and later during the Sunday or Monday morning all cars were allowed to "carefully drive over to the right side of the road and start driving according to the new traffic rules".

For at least four weeks after the change there were thousands of girls, age 17-20, dressed in yellow vests, working as traffic guides in the city. They stood at the road side with their arms stretched out, stopping pedestrians from crossing the street, then in the middle of the road stopping the cars and waving the pedestrians to cross the road, etc.. And for some strange reason they were all very beautiful and smiled nicely all the time.

If we had waited until today it would have costed us at least a hundred times more.

The inch was changed a long time ago to conform to the metric system, now it is exactly 25.400 000 000 .. mm.

The metric system is a lot easier to learn and use, not only when it comes to addition, subtraction, multiplying and dividing but because most scientific units are harmonized to avoid the need for conversion factors as far as possible.

Luckily you US-Americans have already adopted the metric system in most scientific fields, like the electronics field, so 1 Volt is exactly 1 Ohm times 1 Ampere. Imagine if your formula for these dimensions was non-metric, so the formula would look like this, 1 Velt = 2.5432 Ehms times 2680.43 million Ampres.

That would make electronics a lot more complicated, wouldn't it?

That's why you should stop using your few remaining non-metric units, like gallons, feet, inches, etc..

By the way, the photo beside this text was scanned from my seaman's book and retouched to remove the stamp which covered part of the photo. The photo was made a week after I arrived to Göteborg in September 1967. I only own two photos of myself, the other is from my first passport from 1965.


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## Bluepine38 (Dec 14, 2009)

If you worked on Land Rovers and a few other English vehicles back when they were changing over, you 
need inch measurement sockets, metric, and British Standard or Whitworth sockets and wrenches. Three
different sets, and you made sure you remembered where each bolt you took out came from and that you
did not lose any. They are standardized now, but England had a few problems back when also. Pity the 
poor heavy equipment mechanics that need sockets and wrenches to fit small to large bolts, their tool boxes
look like a small truck.


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

I don't have the time to read 141 replies so if this has been said already, sorry.

Skip fractions and use inch decimal. Much easier to add and use.
No different than using the metric system except it's based in inches and not meters.
Everything else is exactly the same.

The metric system is better but the US is stuck using the old system so may as well use a simple version of it.

I use a dial caliper for things under 6" and a 24" scale in 10ths and 100ths for over 6".

For longer distances I found a decimal tape measure. I reviewed it  here

You can get more accuracy than a 1/64" scale.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion which I am sure has helped explain the virtues of the metric system. The main thrust is that the Imperial system is way out of date and confusing as many units have no physical relationship to each other. Learning the Imperial system should be looked at as an old fashioned way of doing things and that now (and for many years) a better, coherent and easier system is now in use throughout the rest of the world. Personally I went through the change to metric in the early 70's, yes we bitched about it but honestly it proved to be such a better and understandable system to use on everything. Being I learned the Imperial system way back when, I can easily work in either systems, BUT I know for sure which one is better.
The US, being the metric holdout is damaging itself by not "getting with the program" and joining the rest of the world. Consider our imported tool and accessories, can you imagine how long foreign manufacturers are going to keep "tooling up" to manufacture goods for the US Imperial market? Look at your own equipment and accessories, look where they are made, do you understand that a premium has not been added to the cost of these items for "custom" sizing for the US non world standard system? If we want to export product don't you think we would have a better chance of that if the products were made in sizes that matched the importing countries system? ****
Most arguments regarding staying on the Imperial system are ludicrous, or a fear factor and are not helping our country at all. The changeover can be done easier than the fear factor suggests, I have been there and done it. I'm almost 70 years old, so age has no place in this discussion, anyone can do it, and I may add, with surprising ease.
It's time to move forward and make things simpler in life and not hang on to obsolete notions that it is good to be out of step with the rest of the world.


You are now seeing "undersized" plywood being sold. It's NOT undersized, its metric. I guess the manufacturer is not prepared to change his tooling to make "odd ball" Imperial sizes - nobody else in the world would buy them. - Food for thought?


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Roger, I back the Metric system, every inch of the way…


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jusfine:
I'll turn a blind ear to that one.


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## RandyMorter (Jan 13, 2011)

Just a comment from another American trying to cope…

I picked up this Casio calculator other day to help me out. I haven't used it in my little shop yet (I haven't done anything out there since I got it), but I think it'll help.

You can enter a fraction just as a fraction (e.g. 3/4), subtract another fraction (e.g. 3/8) and divide the result by 2. (Yeah, that's a simple example.) The result is displayed as a fraction BUT by pressing a single key you can toggle it back and forth between a fraction or a decimal (I think you can convert to metric too but I don't use metric in my sawdust manufacturing).

Also, you can just enter a decimal value and hit the same "convert" key to see the equivalent fraction.

It looks pretty cool, but again I haven't used it. I have 2 calipers, one that displays in fractions as well as decimal and metric. But I have similar issues mentioned above - if it reads out 78/128, it's not easy to see what size of bit or fence adjustment you have to make. If I convert that to decimal it is more clear.


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

ive tried using metric and i just cant get it. every time i do try i always end up trying to convert it to inches so i can figure out the actual measurement. i mean in my head i know exactly what 3/16 looks like but i have no idea what 4.7625 mm looks like


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Mike Gager:
I understand what you mean. Just try not to convert units from one system to another because will get confused as one will give you really "funny" number.
If you really need to have some sort of reference from Imperial to metric in your head, then try this.
The numbers are not exact conversions in this example. 
If you think of 1" = 25mm as a base, then it is not difficult to roughly conclude that 1/2" = 12.5 mm, 1/4'=just over 6mm, 3/4"=about 20mm, 3/8"=about 10mm. From there on you can "see" that 2"=about 50mm, 3"=about 75mm, 4"=about 100mm, 6"=about 150mm …......... that gives you an estimate.
As far as weight goes: 1lb is roughly = 450grams (or 0.450 Kilograms), 2lb roughly = 900grams (or 0.900 Kg).
For liquid, 1 pint= roughly 5 milliliters (or 1/2 liter), 1 quart = roughly 950ml -(almost 1000ml which is 1liter)--so a gallon must be around 4 liters.
Just having a rough translation in your head like the above during the changeover might help, but if you can just "think metric" and ignore the Imperial measurements it is so much easier and quicker. But any way you get to it does not matter, what really matters is getting there.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I hear you Mike, and I have the same issue. I don't think it would take to long for your minds eye to adjust. 
I get a sense from this that some folks want the US government to step in and force business to use the metric system because it is "easier". I must reiterate what has been said before. Our legislature has passed more than one law encouraging but not requiring business to switch over to metric. Business will not do it because of the cost. You can postulate theories on how it is costing business, now and in the future to not switch, but business look at the cost they can calculate to switch and make up their own plan. 
I know the industry that I work in would fall off the map, if the government, or public opinion forced it to switch to metric. There are times during my work when I deal with a specification in metric, but it isn't the norm. 
Industry isn't sticking to the system to make it hard on those who maintain our products, they are making a calculated decision to continue measuring their products with the tools at hand.

When I left the Air Force I could look at a quarter twenty bolt and KNOW what it was, how long it was and what kind of wrench I would need to turn it. When I took a job installing elevators in high rise construction, where most of the bolts were three quarter or larger, I had to measure everything. Every bolt looked huge. I couldn't tell one bolt from the next. About three months into that work it was like I turned a corner, and once again I could look at a bolt or a hole and KNOW what kind of tool I would need to wrench or drill. After I was laid off from that job I went back to working on air planes, I was once again at a loss when looking at a fastener. They all just looked small. It took another three months for my minds eye to adjust and once again I can look a a 5/32 fastener and recognize what it is. If the industry decided to splurge and change all their standards, I would adjust to that also.

I do not see it happening in my career, and I do expect to keep working in this field for the rest of my career. I sure would not want the change over to be forced by a well meaning government push. Then I would probably have to find alternate employment, because we wouldn't be making products.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I actually suspect that we'll find large portions of southern China are using Imperial units, and that'll spread further. Who's their major market, after all?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Dan Lyke:
You are probably right Dan, those areas in China where we shipped our Imperial machinery to by our corporations that sent jobs (and machines to do them) overseas.
What is a major market? Yes the US imports a load of "cheap" goods, but does not always pay for them, hence we are the worlds largest debtor. It won't be long before no manufacturer will be willing to supply us with Imperial items, after all would you go on sending goods to a country that does not pay you? They will figure out that exporting to a bunch of smaller market that pay their bills is a better way to go.
FYI: The largest market right now is the EU, not the US.
Hope we get our act together before it's too late.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Hmm, I've been busy and haven't been around here much, so I've missed this enlightening discussion. I used to spin balance spacecraft. The first time I did it, I discovered that the units used were "Slug-Feet squared". Having a degree in Physics, in which all we ever used were the SI units (metric, to the uninformed), I sat there looking at "Slug-Feet" for awhile until I dragged out my Machinery's Handbook and made sense out of it. "Newton-Meters squared" makes a ton more sense. 

Metric doesn't get on in this country for the simple reason that filth like the "Jerry Springer Show" on TV and Howard Stern on the radio are considered salable "entertainment" in the US. Until people get more ambitious than watching tripe like that, we're going down, one centimeter at a time.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

I just want to say thanks to Roger and the Pro-metric faction here. When this started it was a bit of a joke to me, but the further the discussion went, the more interesting it got. I dug out my old trusty French tape measure with metrics and imperial measurements and began learning to visualize the metric distances for the measurements that I've been exposed to here on Lumberjocks.

I see others that are or were having the same problem of being able to visualize the distance. Example; when Tom O'Donnell was speaking of his template routing, I had no idea what a 40mm router guide even looked like. I bought a Hitachi router and the router guides for it and began my learning curve toward metrics.

This thread had really encouraged me to step out and begin using metrics and actually converting my shop to a metric shop. As my router bits need replacing, my 1/2 inch straight bit will be replaced with a 12mm or a 13 mm depending on which assists me in the proper sized dado for plywood, etc. I have already purchased a set of metric bits and and am now committed to this change over in my life to using the metric system.

Really, as far as the wood worker is concerned (as I see it) is the fear of the unknown. And the the complicated processes we were exposed to in school. I have found the process of addition taught when I was in school, is 180 degrees out. I add left to right instead of right to left. It is much easier to do this in your head than to old way. I multiply by 10's in my head and round off at the same time and don't care how big the number. Just a method I figured out on my own that works for me. Some can use this method to figure faster in their head than you do on a calculator. Once you try the metric system, you will kick yourself for not seeing how easy it is and the simplicity will amaze you.

Don't fight it, try it. Mikey did and he likes it. Rand


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Attaboy Rand,
I actually knew some fellow who found it hard to visualize metric sizes, so he came up with a really good idea to familiarize himself of what metric linear measurements looked like.
He put small sticky labels on everyday items like; width of a door, height of a door, measurements of rooms and garage, and much smaller everyday items that you would look at, but now with some additional information - the metric size on a small label. He said it worked like a charm for him, its a good idea don't you think?


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh Roger, thank you for the atta boy. lol

Anything that is based on the KISS principle is a winner in my book.


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