# Any Union guys out there?



## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

While I enjoy working as a bench carpenter in a custom shop, the cash is…less than ideal.

Wondering how many guys here do the 7-3:30 M-Fas a union carpenter and then do fine woodworking in their spare time.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm not a union carpenter i'm a union ironworker and do some woodworking when I can


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Not a union carpenter but was a member of the ADA before retiring. They were a very helpful organization.
Never guaranteed a certain wage but they had a usual and customary fee book.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Damn, wish I had a big ole box of popcorn for this thread! In 1975, I was forced to join Local 69 of the Teamsters. Lasted about 8 months." Details piss me off way too much" I'll just say, my next Union will be with God, all other will die trying. I had a very lucrative career for 40 years AU, doing what I chose to do for the money I chose to accept. Off my box now!


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

What is a union ? Is it the same thing that took almost all earned money from my kids when they were in the middle school. They had a class at school called "work experience" and were required to work some time for local businesses after school hours. Mine unfortunately picked Vons not knowing what it was. They were asked to forfeit their first whole paycheck for the benefits of the union as "some joining fee", and after that every pay period the union took most of what they earned as naturally they did not make much. The union "adult" managers told them to not expect any benefits, including normal pay untill they work there 6 months or so. The school program lasted 3 months.
There was absolutely no consideration for the age and the circumstances. Money is above all.
Now I fight these "unions" as much as I can. When the landlord of the building where I worked hired some workers to repair the roof the "union" of roof workers ? started picketing the building demanding that the job should be given to them. I harassed and ridiculed them until they left.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

Cool story, bro.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Union sheet metal worker who does wood work for fun and therapy.

Carloz why would you let your kids have a job in middle school after school that would make them 12-14 years old?
You have a good story but it's kind of like someone saying a guy named carloz stole my car so every carloz must be the same. There are good and bad unions and good and bad points to unions. Most peoples jobs wouldn't be as safe,have the hours they do or the rights that they have if it wasn't for union labor. Most forget what jobs and worker rights were before unions. Like papdan and the teamsters he found out it wasn't for him which is fine he paid dues and learned a lesson I would assume it was a cheap lesson compared to most that we learn. But let's say unions didn't push for safety or workers rights. Would papdan have been able to do what he did for a living when it was based on laws passed and pushed for by unions. im sure he could have but not at the same pay or at the same frequency. I'm not saying unions are without flaw because they are flawed and need a revamp. Like with anything where money is involved there is corruption. Wether it's gas,tech,charity,church,government etc there will be corruption and downfalls to them along with some good. 
I graduated from college had my own business and then joined a union when I moved back to where I am at now. I will say that the education I received in the union was better then what I receive at college and was a lot cheaper. But it was sheet metal so it delt with a lot of geometry and math based items along with safety. The classes were accredited and transferable to most colleges in the area. And to get a degree after you needed three extra classes that the sheet metal school didn't offer. Public speaking, English course and a history of labor course. I thought was odd that they didn't teach history of labor but looking on it now it shows that they wanted us to have a unbiased opinion on the subject. Anyways that's my rant and could careless on if you are a union member or not but don't group everyone in the same group because that will be the downfall of society.

Papadan I will be on your side of the river next week if you want to meet up for lunch at J Gumbos on Frankfort send me a pm.

Mcfly what skills did you learn as a apprentice that have helped you out in your hobby woodworking?


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> Mcfly what skills did you learn as a apprentice that have helped you out in your hobby woodworking?
> 
> - diverlloyd


I'm not an apprentice yet. I work in a private custom shop for piss poor pay and am looking at getting into my local union. Theres a basic knowledge test next month. I'm thinking of signing up to see how I do.


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## maverik (Dec 30, 2015)

I've been an IBEW member for 30+ years, do woodworking for enjoyment, and the occasional profit LOL


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Mcfly study up on your math.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> What is a union ? Is it the same thing that took almost all earned money from my kids when they were in the middle school. They had a class at school called "work experience" and were required to work some time for local businesses after school hours. Mine unfortunately picked Vons not knowing what it was. They were asked to forfeit their first whole paycheck for the benefits of the union as "some joining fee", and after that every pay period the union took most of what they earned as naturally they did not make much. The union "adult" managers told them to not expect any benefits, including normal pay untill they work there 6 months or so. The school program lasted 3 months.
> There was absolutely no consideration for the age and the circumstances. Money is above all.
> Now I fight these "unions" as much as I can. When the landlord of the building where I worked hired some workers to repair the roof the "union" of roof workers ? started picketing the building demanding that the job should be given to them. I harassed and ridiculed them until they left.
> 
> - Carloz


I am guessing Vons is a grocery store, I worked at Kroger as my first job and had the exact same experience. I worked 15 hrs a week and lost an entire paycheck every 4 weeks to union dues and initiation fees. Now my dad was an rep for the AFL-CIO and got on that union for stealing from kids.

Unions have the purposes, don't get me wrong but they have lost their way and sold out their members for political power and money in the last 30 years or so.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

Should't this have been an off-topic post?


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

Let's step back. Painting almost any organization with a broad brush is foolish.

A Union is an organization of workers formed to protect the rights and interests of its members. In reality it depends. Some do a better job of it then others, some don't. Again, they are all a bit different. Some are better at it then others and some industries are more challenging for unions to negotiate in.

I used to be in a trade union (Plumbers and Pipe fitters) as a laborer, then I turned out as an apprentice when a slot open up and I passed the test. As a laborer I got a wage, insurance (as long as I worked 9 months of the year) and some other stuff. As an apprentice, I took a pay cut initially, but still got insurance and required classes twice a week plus access to the labs to practice skills. Again, there were additional benefits. My dues paid for these benefits. Some went to the insurance, some to office staff which I assure you, they didn't make all that much. others went to pay for my training and there was a required minimum journeyman/apprentice ratio and they expected journeyman to train us as well in the field. I have relatives in this union still or retired, they have pensions. My brother in law was injured with a broken knee and off work, he got disability through the union and reduced health insurance payments.

I was in a different union, it was a subset of AFL-CIO or something, I can't remember. It was more poorly funded and run. That said, when my employer decided to suddenly fire me so they could hire someone from their church (true story btw, very uncool) they did mange to successfully challenge the rules violation, get me my job back and the two weeks back pay. After which, I gave notice because ultimately no way I was going to win that situation.

3rd story. I work in yet a different industry. I am not in a union I am in IT and somehow considered 'management'. That's fine, a huge chunk of the employees are in a union. Every time that the union 'losses benefits' or the company shifts costs to the employees during contract negotiations, there is a direct correlation on how much us non union employees are suddenly paying. Negotiated less holiday days? Now I have less. Negotiated pay more for insurance, now I am paying more for insurance. Odd that eh? I'm not even in the union.

I want to note something specific about unions. There are elections. You voted in the person who ran the union. If you and others felt they did a bad job, you could vote them out. They are an organization of people and are run as well as the participation of it's members. We made more then non union labor.

Each and every industry and the unions in them are different. Some good, some bad. All complicated by a variety of factors. Ultimately, unions are a very capitalistic thing. A pool of labor that negotiates terms of work.


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## MrSmith670 (Jan 26, 2014)

^well said


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> I ve been an IBEW member for 30+ years, do woodworking for enjoyment, and the occasional profit LOL
> 
> - Lee


Got a brother and a brotherin law in IBEW. They do well for themselves


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> Mcfly study up on your math.
> 
> - diverlloyd


Agreed. I just noted that no calculators are permitted for the test. Guess I better go brush up on that high school math.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> What is a union ? Is it the same thing that took almost all earned money from my kids when they were in the middle school. They had a class at school called "work experience" and were required to work some time for local businesses after school hours. Mine unfortunately picked Vons not knowing what it was. They were asked to forfeit their first whole paycheck for the benefits of the union as "some joining fee", and after that every pay period the union took most of what they earned as naturally they did not make much. The union "adult" managers told them to not expect any benefits, including normal pay untill they work there 6 months or so. The school program lasted 3 months.
> There was absolutely no consideration for the age and the circumstances. Money is above all.
> Now I fight these "unions" as much as I can. When the landlord of the building where I worked hired some workers to repair the roof the "union" of roof workers ? started picketing the building demanding that the job should be given to them. I harassed and ridiculed them until they left.
> 
> ...





> What is a union ? Is it the same thing that took almost all earned money from my kids when they were in the middle school. They had a class at school called "work experience" and were required to work some time for local businesses after school hours. Mine unfortunately picked Vons not knowing what it was. They were asked to forfeit their first whole paycheck for the benefits of the union as "some joining fee", and after that every pay period the union took most of what they earned as naturally they did not make much. The union "adult" managers told them to not expect any benefits, including normal pay untill they work there 6 months or so. The school program lasted 3 months.
> There was absolutely no consideration for the age and the circumstances. Money is above all.
> Now I fight these "unions" as much as I can. When the landlord of the building where I worked hired some workers to repair the roof the "union" of roof workers ? started picketing the building demanding that the job should be given to them. I harassed and ridiculed them until they left.
> 
> ...


I'm going in eyes open and knowing full well that i will be expected to "pay my dues" in more ways than one. And I'm ok with that.

In my case, I'm 3 years in at a private shop making 300% less than a journeyman's wage. If I jump into the union, I take a pay cut the first year. Second year, I will be making $5/hr more than I am now with incremental raises each year thereafter until I get my card.

I will also get a pension plan, which is nonexistent in my current shop - I don't consider a 401k where the employer doesnt match a thin dime a "plan".

Health insurance is WAY better (thanks, obama) and I will have a collective bargaining agreement to keep my wages up.

The main purpose of my post was to talk to some guys already in the union to see how they balance work work and enjoyable work.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Nevermind then


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

FYI, where I am from, a scab is someone who crosses the picket line during a strike. Nothing else qualifies.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

*


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

If you are not in a union, and have any of these things:

1. A good wage.
2. Safe working conditions.
3. A 40 hour work week.
4. Assurance of "due process" when a boss wants to discipline you.
5. Employer provided health insurance.
6. Vacation time and sick leave.
7. A pension.
8. Protection against wage theft, speed-ups, and off-the-clock uncompensated labor (like, for example, if you are a 
Walmart employee).
8. Ability to bargain with your employer regarding any of the above . . . . . .

. . . . .where do you think those things came from? If you think they are due to the generosity, benevolence, fair-mindedness, and kindness of your employer, you are living in a fools' paradise. Union people, beginning with the old IWW, fought for decades to gain those things. They often got bloodied and killed when strikebreakers, including the police and national guard, came after them, invariably on the side of (guess who?) the employer.

I still don't see what this has to do with wood working. But, okay, I'll now shut up and go sit down in the corner, properly chastized.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

I am also a Union Sheet Metal worker, retired. My pension is about 98% of what a journeyman got at the time I retired in 2000. They have excellent training for apprentices and it is free to them. I now make sawdust about 30-40 hours a week. Sell most all I make.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> I still don t see what this has to do with wood working. But, okay, I ll now shut up and go sit down in the corner, properly chastized.
> 
> - runswithscissors


I got nothin. Mods, if it needs to be moved, let's shuffle it out of this section to wherever it is acceptable for me to ask questions about carpenter / cabinetmaker unions. Seems there's some vitriol out there about unions both for and against.


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

people make it out to be that union dues take half of your pay but it is not even close to that. You think the non union contractors don't take money away from their workers? My dues are tiny compared to what I get paid. The safety is way better on a union job compared to non union. I have been on jobs where we were the only union workers on the job. There was no safety. That's why non union construction workers had way more deaths on the job than the union jobs


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> people make it out to be that union dues take half of your pay but it is not even close to that. You think the non union contractors don t take money away from their workers? My dues are tiny compared to what I get paid. The safety is way better on a union job compared to non union. I have been on jobs where we were the only union workers on the job. There was no safety. That s why non union construction workers had way more deaths on the job than the union jobs
> 
> - corelz125


My brother inlaw is an IBEW guy working at a refinery. Safety is TOP priority there to such an extent that the refinery actually fired the only guy in the whole COUNTRYwho could fix a particular machine because he scrambled out on an I-beam without a harness on to take a better look atwhat was broken. Safety really is first in the unions. Which is part of the reason i wanna get into one


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> people make it out to be that union dues take half of your pay but it is not even close to that. You think the non union contractors don t take money away from their workers? My dues are tiny compared to what I get paid. The safety is way better on a union job compared to non union. I have been on jobs where we were the only union workers on the job. There was no safety. That s why non union construction workers had way more deaths on the job than the union jobs
> 
> - corelz125


For a full time employee union dues are a very small amount, however to a kid making $5/hr for 15 hrs/week they were brutal. If I remember correctly my dads dues were $20/month when he was in the AFGWU, which were actually less than mine in the UFCW.


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## cabmaker (Sep 16, 2010)

Former member here…....carpenters and joiners local 1822 fort worth, texas


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## corelz125 (Sep 23, 2015)

As a kid i worked in a ufcw supermarket also worked at a pharmacy chain pay sucked in both jobs but at least the supermarket sundays were over time forgot if it was time and half or time and a quarter.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Lots of Union fans here with their stories of glory, mostly the old and retired. Unions were created back in the 20s-30s to improve work conditions, pay scales, training, and safety. Even though the unions were crooked money hungry thieves, they did manage to accomplish the goal of helping the American workers. Fast forward to the late 70s early 80s. The American Manufacturers have been taught to take care of their people. Since 90, there has been very little need for any employee unions. Those unions are getting obese on their take. And they have done very little to help and in a lot of situations they hurt the emplyees significantly. As our generantins die off, there will be no future generation to to praise the unions. I had one short stint as a union member and that wasn't right. Since the mid 70s I have worked in every industry and every type on manufacturing facility there is. The unions now have to send barkers into employment at the target companies. They get into the employee friendships and convince them as to how the union will give them multiple benefits with Double the pay and triple the vacation time. The greatest insurance atm no costs. Then comes the reps and the votes and the union is in. As part of the deal the company turns the pension plan over to the union, the union drops the medical insurance and after the new union employees get passed their 90 day trial periods their benefits can begin, All the single s get fully paid medical, but the families have to pay the difference in the plans. They slowly find out the insurance has deductables and high co pays. Older employees that have been there 30 + years decide not to start over and apply for their pension, what pension they have only worked there for 5 months. Every employee in that plant was starting over as day one employees. The employees even rioted against the *COMPANY* acusing them of stealing their retirement. These people let the union lie to them and show them false documents about what they would do for them. This happened in a manufacturing plant in KY. I know every employee, manager,and janitor by fisrt name. I installed the the original cranes in this plant before they put the roof on it. That was 4 10 ton and 4 20 ton top running 60' span cranesIn the years since I added a 15 and 30 ton stacker cranes and 2 150 ton 100'span cranes that we had to take part of the roof back off for. Until my "retirement" in 20013, Nobody but myself and my helpers ever touched a crane in that plant. They are all Mannesmann Demag . I know of the facts of thses same tactics and results 5 times in KY, 3 times in Indiana, and 2 in Ohio. All of which were friends of mine that these "unions" Fuked over totally. I can write this with documentation for proof, they even tried to force our company to join their union to be able to continue doing business with them. Yes I have the documentation from the federal judge that stopped that ******************** cold. What's kinda funny is none of this has anything to do with the rage I would have started with the information mention in my first post of the thread.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Unions made their mark in history and helped millions of Americans to a better life. Unions have outlived their usefulness now and should be disbanded. JMHO


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Unions made their mark in history and helped millions of Americans to a better life. Unions have outlived their usefulness now and should be disbanded. JMHO
> 
> - papadan


How have they outlived their usefulness??

I didn't read your lengthily post above because it looks like a bunch of words all crammed together, single spaced and no paragraphs. To damn hard to read with old eyes.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

I've worked in union and non-union shops. There's pros and cons of both, it really depends more on the local org than anything so make sure you know what you're getting into there. The biggest gripe I've got with them is that they make it impossible to remove the inevitable turd that's in every punch bowl. My wife had a guy in the UAW throw a 18V battery at her a few years back. He got sent home for an afternoon with pay and was back the next day. If he wasn't in the union he'd have been fired on the spot. I've been less than impressed with them since that happened.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I'll add to what others have stated about the importance of math, for example, if you were making 100% less than a journeyman, you would be making exactly zero, 300% less and you'd be paying your employer. The math isn't really all that difficult but for many if it isn't used regularly, it's easily forgotten. Like the GMAT (only much easier) you can expect a lot of algebra and other basic math, there's only so much that can be expected without a calculator so you're almost certainty safe from having to do any differential equations.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> I ve worked in union and non-union shops. There s pros and cons of both, it really depends more on the local org than anything so make sure you know what you re getting into there. The biggest gripe I ve got with them is that they make it impossible to remove the inevitable turd that s in every punch bowl. My wife had a guy in the UAW throw a 18V battery at her a few years back. He got sent home for an afternoon with pay and was back the next day. If he wasn t in the union he d have been fired on the spot. I ve been less than impressed with them since that happened.
> 
> - mramseyISU


Toss anything more than a polite compliment at my wife and a guy will miss more than a few days while his jaw, arm and legs heal up.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> I ll add to what others have stated about the importance of math, for example, if you were making 100% less than a journeyman, you would be making exactly zero, 300% less and you d be paying your employer. The math isn t really all that difficult but for many if it isn t used regularly, it s easily forgotten. Like the GMAT (only much easier) you can expect a lot of algebra and other basic math, there s only so much that can be expected without a calculator so you re almost certainty safe from having to do any differential equations.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


 Well thank God for that. Differentials aint my cup of meat


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Union wages must have a high value product in order to support the pay rates. Unlike automobile manufacturing, most woodworking is fairly low value for the amount of labor involved. If the pay scale exceeds the value of the labor that an individual can provide, then they are out of luck. This is just an unfortunate fact. I come from a small town that is economically dominated by the cabinet making industry. In fact, the biggest shop there used to be and maybe still is the largest cabinet shop East of the Mississippi river. Competition in the industry is fierce. If their labor cost goes up too much, they will just shut down. A union in that circumstance would do nothing for the pay scale. It might, however put 2000+ people out of a job.


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## them700project (Aug 12, 2015)

Im a union plumber/pipefitter. From what I remember my test was easy with some common sense. Basic math(add/subtract/mult/divide) Read a tape, add/subtract fractions. common sense safety. I think the test more or less tells them if you are more capable of using a hammer or being a hammer


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> Im a union plumber/pipefitter. From what I remember my test was easy with some common sense. Basic math(add/subtract/mult/divide) Read a tape, add/subtract fractions. common sense safety. I think the test more or less tells them if you are more capable of using a hammer or being a hammer
> 
> - them700project


Thanks


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> Union wages must have a high value product in order to support the pay rates. Unlike automobile manufacturing, most woodworking is fairly low value for the amount of labor involved. If the pay scale exceeds the value of the labor that an individual can provide, then they are out of luck. This is just an unfortunate fact. I come from a small town that is economically dominated by the cabinet making industry. In fact, the biggest shop there used to be and maybe still is the largest cabinet shop East of the Mississippi river. Competition in the industry is fierce. If their labor cost goes up too much, they will just shut down. A union in that circumstance would do nothing for the pay scale. It might, however put 2000+ people out of a job.
> 
> - ArtMann


Not likely I'll run into that problem. I live just outside a major metro area, so the wages are likely to remain steady even if the type of work changes a lot.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Mcfly the tests are there to see how much you know. So when you start school they know who to put in what classes and what needs to be gone over first. The better you do the higher you go on the list to start next. But that isn't the only thing that factors into it. Experience,military service and the interview factor into it. Just do your best at the above and you have no worries.

Art unions don't need high value items to pay wages. Most jobs compete against non union labor making the same products. So if it costs a union shop say $75 a man hour for costs,overhead and profit and they are competitive on the same product a nonunion shop must be charging around the same also. So does the non union shop have the same overhead as a union shop with labor costs being less or do they charge the same to keep the rest as profit. Bid jobs are a even better example of that considering that all the factors should be the same minus labor costs. By the math union shops should never win a bid job but they do because the non unions shops bid higher then them. So if everything is the same that would mean the union company is making less profit. Now the upside for something like that is if they job needs done in a certain time frame that is very quick. A union shop can call the hall and say I need 25 workers. Those guys have been trained the same so they are ready to work. A non union shop would have a tough time filling 25 trained workers that would be ready to go at such short notice.

papadan that sucks for those guys in your posts. Like is said when money is involved corruption will be there. Wonder what the incentive was for their company to go union? Unlike most unionized countries the USA it is the companies final decision to be union or not,even if the employees vote for it doesn't mean that it will be a union shop. But its unions like you mention that are the true bad apples that spoil the bunch.

Ramsey that wouldn't fly in my union we have a zero tollerence to violence and not being safe. That guy would have been canned and not for rehire. I have seen it happen 4 or 5 times in the last 10 years I was working. 3 of those were guys who worked there for years and was at the top of being the go to guys. The guy who did that should have been fired on the spot. Things like that are written into our contracts and should be upheld.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

There are more to Union that pay scale. If your have ever worked for hi wages for assholes you will know that I mean.


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> There are more to Union that pay scale. If your have ever worked for hi wages for assholes you will know that I mean.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


It helps if you enjoy the work.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> There are more to Union that pay scale. If your have ever worked for hi wages for assholes you will know that I mean.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


I've worked for assholes for low wages at Kroger. My assistant manager was eventually fired for striking a cashier.


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## maverik (Dec 30, 2015)

> I am also a Union Sheet Metal worker, retired. My pension is about 98% of what a journeyman got at the time I retired in 2000. They have excellent training for apprentices and it is free to them. I now make sawdust about 30-40 hours a week. Sell most all I make.
> 
> - Jim Finn


I'm with ya brother, three more years and I'll be doing the same thing, just thinking about it brings a smile to my face, LOL


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## PineSucks (Aug 3, 2015)

> I am also a Union Sheet Metal worker, retired. My pension is about 98% of what a journeyman got at the time I retired in 2000. They have excellent training for apprentices and it is free to them. I now make sawdust about 30-40 hours a week. Sell most all I make.
> 
> - Jim Finn
> 
> ...


Lucky dogs!


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

> I ll add to what others have stated about the importance of math, for example, if you were making 100% less than a journeyman, you would be making exactly zero, 300% less and you d be paying your employer. The math isn t really all that difficult but for many if it isn t used regularly, it s easily forgotten. Like the GMAT (only much easier) you can expect a lot of algebra and other basic math, there s only so much that can be expected without a calculator so you re almost certainty safe from having to do any differential equations.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


Get real Yeti, nobody is using those numbers in context, just examples "Journeyman makes a lot more than me" 


> Union wages must have a high value product in order to support the pay rates. Unlike automobile manufacturing, most woodworking is fairly low value for the amount of labor involved. If the pay scale exceeds the value of the labor that an individual can provide, then they are out of luck. This is just an unfortunate fact. I come from a small town that is economically dominated by the cabinet making industry. In fact, the biggest shop there used to be and maybe still is the largest cabinet shop East of the Mississippi river. Competition in the industry is fierce. If their labor cost goes up too much, they will just shut down. A union in that circumstance would do nothing for the pay scale. It might, however put 2000+ people out of a job.
> 
> - ArtMann


Well stated ArtMann, Auto industry is up there on pay and benefits, most people build those cars don't realize how many thousands of people are working for $10 bucks and hour or less with few benefits making all the little pieces and parts of their cars Unions wiggle into these companies and because of product cost and value, they can't get them anymore pay or benefits, BUT they sure as hell take their money for the unions services. EDIT: The main players in my story above are an example of this. Those employees averaged $20 an hour, 3weeks vacation, company owned medical that covered their families too for $15 a week, with no copay or deductables. They live in a small town without much in the way of inflation. This is a international company that allowes the individual plants to set their own pay and benefit structure based on their location and economy. The Union promised them the moon and cost them their underwear. That plant build frames for Ford trucks thru the F350 line, Th3y build all the frames for the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Ky, and They are the only manufacturer in the world of the Corvette sub frame/body assembly. Takes very little to find who I am referring to, but I can't name names by law.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

> Unions made their mark in history and helped millions of Americans to a better life. Unions have outlived their usefulness now and should be disbanded. JMHO
> 
> - papadan
> 
> ...


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