# Heating up the garage with a natural gas furnace fed by a refillable tank



## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi guys

I need to keep warm a one car garage (no car in it) that I use as workshop.
I have tried to use the propane gas tanks we have for our barbecue but it is not really usable as the air circulation is not great and you start feeling uncomfortable after a while (it feels like the air is not breathable anymore)

I am not sure if there is any way to do it safely using the above method. If you know of any solution please give me some pointers, where and what I should read about it

The other option I am exploring is the natural gas heating, one of the options that I am considering is having a small natural gas furnace and a natural gas tank to feed it, if there is such solution. I am interested in your experience with this solution if you could share it

thanks

Edit: I am reading that kerosene is an option -not sure what difference would it make (kerosene vs propane I mean) but if it is less smelly and it consumes less oxygen I would consider it


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm sure there are regulations regarding open flame devices in enclosed spaces, especially if the garage is attached to the house. An electric heater may be a better solution. More insulation would help.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

> I m sure there are regulations regarding open flame devices in enclosed spaces, especially if the garage is attached to the house. An electric heater may be a better solution. More insulation would help.
> 
> - MrRon


Adding more insulation would take from the already too small space in the garage
The electric heater is slow … I would spend only the afternoons, evenings or weekends working in that space


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

It sounds like you were using a ventless LP heater? I've never heard of anyone using bottled NG for heat. But I can assure you a vented gas furnace on LP works just like a NG furnace, and no smell or other problems. My last 2 shop and the current one was (is) heated with an LP furnace, the first 2 were direct vented (draw outside air for combustion) and the current is not. The are great sources of heat, the downside being (for mine) was the forced air…it does blow dust around. If you had a ventless heater before, it's their nature to have some odor, and generate moisture that stays in the room. This was always a problem for me, though a good many folks use them and claim no problems. I suggest you look for a vented LP furnace. They come in various configurations, I had a small wall furnace (made to fit between the studs,) and the last 2 were the ceiling hanger type.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

Yes it was ventless
By "LP vented furnace" you mean one like this one 
https://propanedepot.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Martin-MDV-Installation-Manual-2018.pdf
So this will take propan as fuel ?


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## P89DC (Oct 1, 2017)

I have been using a 15kBTU propane "sunflower" heater in my one car garage on cold days. I open the window to ~24 square inches and run it wide open for around an hour to get the temperature over 60F. There are some fumes but it's what you get with un-vented propane. I run a box fan to circulated the air and prevent stratification of the heated air.

My buddy is running a vented natural gas heater in his three car garage and it works great.

I insulated my garage with r19/vapor barrier insulation and drywall. This winter I'm going to try an electric space heater set to ~60F with a fan running to see if I can keep it warm without too much expense. I have an insulation blanket hanging over the door. That makes a big difference in thermal loss and draftiness.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Yes it was ventless
> By "LP vented furnace" you mean one like this one
> https://propanedepot.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Martin-MDV-Installation-Manual-2018.pdf
> So this will take propan as fuel ?
> ...


Well, that's not the type I was referring to, but it would work. It is vented. They are made for nat gas and LP, you need to buy the one you want since they are not convertible. But it has an exhaust, that would solve the smell and moisture problem. I was referring to a style like this one, or maybe this one. Both styles are available from several manufacturers, and the prices will vary from supplier to supplier. These types can be converted from nat gas to LP and back, if that's important to you.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Ive got a house I heat by burning a natural gas stove (its supplied by the city not bottled though) I bassically figured if ok to cook a giant thanksgiving dinner all day on it its probably ok for this as well. I got a 4 in 1 gas meter, it checks for carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, anything explosive and oxygen content, just to be comfy about it and its totally fine, so I would say you can safely burn natural gas indoors with very little ventilation. I do not know however when you can get natural gas in bottles, have bout bullet heaters, they burn diesel, kerosene, and maybe alcohol. alcohol is pretty clean burning.


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## mike02719 (Jan 13, 2008)

My shop is 12×26 and it has been heated by a direct vented natural gas wall heater with a blower which is an option and well worth the money. These come in a propane version. Empire is the brand. If installed according to code, they pose no health or fire risks. As for comfort, my shop warms up in minutes even on the coldest days here in New England. Performance of these units are best with proper location of the thermostat. This is critical.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

One of the products of any combustion (burner, heater, furnace) is carbon monoxide. It is odorless and will KILL YOU. It must be vented to the outside. You cannot safely use a barbeque, fire pit, or unvented heater in a closed space!


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

Let me answer your question regarding natural gas. It is not possible to have a tank at your home that will hold liquid natural gas. That requires an extremely strong pressure vessel that keeps the gas at -260 degrees F. The only choice is propane unless you have public natural gas service nearby.


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## squazo (Nov 23, 2013)

Id say if you had a completely air tight building the carbon monoxide levels could build up to lethal levels but with a regular building as well as when you open a door you've got enough ventilation to be safe, that and the fact theat most gas burning appliances now a days are almost 100 percent efficient, but for sure get a CO detector its like 20 bucks and could save your life.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I use a bigmaxx natural gas heater and it keeps the 30×33 shop at 68 degrees in the cold weather. It cost me about $120 a year to heat.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

I was suggested this guy
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/25000-btu-natural-gas-workshop-radiant-heater/p/5530800

Can't understand how it works without venting…I guess it is like a stove ..it consumes oxigen from the garage and a minimal air draft must be secured


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## TDSpade (Oct 14, 2011)

This is all you need for a small space.

https://www.ecomfort.com/Williams-3509621A/p100046.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwoebsBRCHARIsAC3JP0JBPm8yfkFnhl-dYrQlkm2bIb3arZsZa4HVvTQKIr22FMpqs_dN7IkaAjx6EALw_wcB

35,000 btu, will fit between 2×4's, will stick out some, but still some what of a space saver. You will have to vent through the roof with this model. Have a propane company set 120 gallon tank outside against the wall or what local code will allow. You have to be 3 feet from windows, doors,etc. Drill a small hole in the wall and run a short line straight the furnace. Small tanks will freeze up and are a pain to keep changing out.

Empire makes a direct vent (straight out of the wall exhaust and intake) in a 24,000 btu.

https://www.totalhomesupply.com/empire-comfort-systems-dv-25-sg-25-000-btu-direct-vent-wall-furnace/p/empire-dv25sg


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

With a mini split AC / heat pump I use nice, clean, safe electricity to cool my 16×22 shop for less than 25 cents a day, and heat it in northern Illinois for about 50 cents a day. It stays at 60 degrees. It is a 28 seer cooling, and a 14 for heating. Yes it cost about $1200 plus install, but it is cheap to run . And the shop is warm when I get home. Add the internet card, and you can turn the temp up before you head home. And no CO, no tanks, no smell, no CO detector, no danger. There are compressed ( not liguid) natural gas vehicles, but you must run the compressor for several hours to fill the tank. Ceiling insulation is the most important, and won't take up your shop space.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

Can I get the heat pump only and not the AC unit? 
I don't understand why is more economical to run a heat pump and not than a 


> This is all you need for a small space.
> 
> https://www.ecomfort.com/Williams-3509621A/p100046.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwoebsBRCHARIsAC3JP0JBPm8yfkFnhl-dYrQlkm2bIb3arZsZa4HVvTQKIr22FMpqs_dN7IkaAjx6EALw_wcB
> 
> ...


yeah but with the bigger tank then you need to find a solution to have it refilled
not sure how popular that service is in a big city
All I am trying to avoid here is running pipes and having to drill big holes in the walls or roof for venting


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

> With a mini split AC / heat pump I use nice, clean, safe electricity to cool my 16×22 shop for less than 25 cents a day, and heat it in northern Illinois for about 50 cents a day. It stays at 60 degrees. It is a 28 seer cooling, and a 14 for heating. Yes it cost about $1200 plus install, but it is cheap to run . And the shop is warm when I get home. Add the internet card, and you can turn the temp up before you head home. And no CO, no tanks, no smell, no CO detector, no danger. There are compressed ( not liguid) natural gas vehicles, but you must run the compressor for several hours to fill the tank. Ceiling insulation is the most important, and won t take up your shop space.
> 
> - ibewjon


Can I buy only the pump?
My garage is cooler in the summer actually (has no windows, just a door) and I do not work a lot during the summer, it is a hobby I find time for mostly during the winter


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

It's a heat pump….they do both things. If you want heat only, consider a resistance heater.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

The heat pump I have is more economical than resistance heat. That is what I had. The resistance heat just burns electricity:. Mine was 4 kw, and it used 4 kwh per hour. The heat pump runs a small compressor outside and a small fan inside. It pulls heat out of the air down to 14 degrees BELOW zero. I shut mine off at 10 below because I didn't want to push it. Older heat pumps only worked down to 32 or a little lower and had resistance backup heat. This has no built in backup heating. Being an electrician, I have hour meters and kwh meters on both units and I can monitor power usage. I am not a believer of ads, I needed to prove it. The 50 cents the the heat pump costs to run all day only runs the resistance heater about 1 hour. Yes, it is AC and heat pump, but the AC in the summer keeps my humidity down to where my tools don't rust. It cost me less than $20 to keep my shop cool for the last four months.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

thanks guys
It seems that I will either have to find a solution to get a gas line in my garage or stick with the propane ones and take care of proper ventilation. 
So far I have used the cheap burners you install on the tank directly and they cause temporary eye issues and smell 
Mr Heater has some portable units with very good reviews , my garage is only 12'x22'


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

If you stay with a ventless heater, you will have the same results with natural gas that you have with LP (if you run a gas line). It's not the fuel causing your problem, it's the type of heater.


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

Yes but I guess since natural gas is safe to burn in your kitchen (I have never seen a warning not to run your stove for more than X hours) I guess burning NG has a smaller impact on the quality of the air in the room


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I have read that gas stoves and ovens are not vented because of the low but output of the burners, and the length of time the burners are on


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## MiniMe (Apr 5, 2018)

there are dishes you cook in the oven for like 4h ..this is more that I would work in my garage after work


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

But look at the size of the oven. About 8 cubic feet? And your garage is about 2000 cubic feet. I know you are not heating it to 350. The non vented gas heaters also fill the space with water vapor, ( rusty tools ).and many have a low oxygen or high co2 detector built in to shut them off. An electric resistance heater is definitely cheapest to buy and install, but not cheapest to operate. Pay now or later. There are now internet controlled thermostats so you can turn it on ahead of time.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Yes but I guess since natural gas is safe to burn in your kitchen (I have never seen a warning not to run your stove for more than X hours) I guess burning NG has a smaller impact on the quality of the air in the room
> 
> - MiniMe


Not true, many of those same stoves are fired by LP. We have an LP gas cooktop in our own kitchen, it's just fine. Don't forget many kitchens has a vent to exhaust the heat/odors. But some don't and they still get by just fine (with LP and NG).


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Something to keep in mind is that there is a big difference between heating vis a heat exchanger and an open flame when it come to applying a finish. The paint, stain, laqueur etc. is pulled into and combusted by the flame. In higher concentrations this can have explosive consequences. Another is the byproducts of combustion, Paint with any oil based product with a gas kitchen stove or kerosene heater going you will quickly realize just how toxic it is. Within about ten minutes you will decide its time to leave or open some doors and windows. I have been using a ceramic type heater on top of a LP gas tank last year to bring the shop up to temperature and with open door, uninsulated building never gave CO a thought. Now that I have just added power I am looking into a mini split. I really want to get away from an open flame. Thinking about boards falling over at times, CO and the large space it needs it is just not worth it. I am getting started on insulation and that will only make CO a bigger issue.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> there are dishes you cook in the oven for like 4h ..this is more that I would work in my garage after work
> 
> - MiniMe


Not that many, typically the burners aren't going that long. But I'm outa here, best of luck without whatever choice you make.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> there are dishes you cook in the oven for like 4h ..this is more that I would work in my garage after work
> 
> - MiniMe
> 
> ...


This reminds me of the first digital CO detector I ever bought decades ago. I had a natural gas cooktop and plugged it in the kitchen outlet. I watched in shock as the numbers kept going up. I was thinking my God, I am killing my family as the number kept rising. In my mind I was thinking heating (also gas) failure. Well dinner was almost ready and my wife shut off the four top burners she was using. Ten minutes later the readout was back to zero and all were safe. CO detection is a logarithmic calculation based on concentration and time of concentration. So the time involved with all four burner raging was not enough to generate an alarm with CO in double digits but a lower amount over a day or days would generate an alarm. This is likely why the warning on stoves is "do not use to heat with" When a gas stove is used to cook over four hours or more once the chamber has reached temperature it is probably off more than it is on generating CO. Now don't ask me how natural gas unvented heaters work but they are very handy in ice storms when the power is out.


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