# Gouges/tools without breaking the bank.



## weedeater64 (May 15, 2018)

Anyone familiar with the Record Power or the Schaaf 12 piece sets?

Good?

Bad?

Ugly?

I saw an old post here about getting rough forged Chinese irons and doing the finishing yourself, including making handles. Are those irons still available?

Any other suggestions for getting some gouges without having to sell body parts?


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

If you want to experiment with carving chisels then you're just going to have to buy and try.
If you want to start the long road of woodcarving for pleasure start buying the pfeil tools one at a time if you cannot afford the full set.
They are so nice I wish I would have started with them. All one needs to keep them sharp is a cloth buffer

Good Luck


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

I am an 87-year-old relief carver, and currently have a fairly extensive set of Pfeil (Swiss Made) gouges. I rarely need or use more that three to six tools during any relief project. I recently bought the Schaaf fishtail set of four gouges and tested them as I would use my present tools. They measure up quite well - and are about 1/4 the cost of Pfeil gouges. However, Schaaf tools are limited to what you see in the available sets. Pfeil has perhaps 200 profiles. I use fishtail gouges very often, so the Schaaf purchase made sense. Do you know what you're going to carve? When considering anyone's advice about tools, be sure to check out their projects by clicking the link by their avatar (photo).


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The Schaff carving gouge tools look great. I wouldn't mind having a few. 
I didn't see any palm tools like Pfeils. Do you know if they sell palm tools Phil.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I just recently bought the 12-piece Schaaf set. So far, they are proving to be an excellent value. But, like Phil said, you are limited to what they offer in sets and can't just buy the tools you need. They are also FAR from ready-to-use out of the package. Each one I have used required completely reshaping the cutting edge and a lot of refinement. That's not a problem for me but if it is for you, it's something to consider. They do offer the same set that I bought that is hand sharpened on their website. Might be worth an extra $40 if that's not something you want to do.

I will say that for a good selection of tools to get started, I would highly recommend the Schaaf set. I hope they will offer more tools in the future. They don't have any palm tools at present AJ. They are a US company FWIW although the tools are made in China.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

> The Schaff carving gouge tools look great. Do you know if they sell palm tools Phil.
> 
> - Aj2


I haven't seen any, Aj2. I would expect their market share would have to expand before they offer a wider selection including palm tools.

Phil


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

I want to correct a number I gave about Pfeil tools - they have over 300 profiles in their full size line. That includes variations in the shape of tool shafts. For example, you can get a #5-12mm or #7-14mm in either straight, long bent, spoon bent, or fishtail. This is based on a catalog I picked up in Switzerland some years ago. It doesn't include any #6 gouges or Abegglen knives. Woodcraft is the exclusive dealer for Pfeil tools in the USA, so if you want to look at them, hold them in your hands, buy just the ones you need, you'll have to go into one of their stores. You can buy them online, of course. The catalog lists only 8 palm tools (14 if you count block cutters) and 20 intermediate size gouges.


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## MikeB_UK (Jul 27, 2015)

> I saw an old post here about getting rough forged Chinese irons and doing the finishing yourself, including making handles. Are those irons still available?
> - weedeater64


search ebay for
"62pcs ASSORTED LOT WOOD CARVING TOOLS"

You will be doing a LOT of grinding, rough forged is an accurate description


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm the one who posted about the Chinese rough irons. Sadly, these are no longer available to my knowledge. However, I am convinced these are the same irons now with handles. Can't be sure though. "www.woodcarverssupply.com/Mastercarver-Hand-Forged/departments/138/"


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I just checked ebay, entered the title u posted and it showed 5 different sets


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Appears to be quite the difference in price for the 12 roll of Schaff tools on Amazon. I believe it's the same set, though I didn't pour over the details.

https://www.amazon.com/SCHAAF-Full-Size-Carving-Tools/dp/B06XBLNRNM

Amazon set includes

#1 Straight Chisel 8mm, 
#1 Skew Chisel 8mm, 
#5 Gouge 8mm, 
#5 Gouge 20mm, 
#7 Gouge 6mm, 
#7 Gouge 14mm, 
#7 Heavy Bent Gouge 20mm, 
#8 Gouge 4mm, 
#8 Spoon Gouge 10mm, 
#9 Gouge 10mm, 
#11 Veiner 3mm, 
#12 V Parting Tool 6mm.

Schaff website includes

#1 Straight Chisel 8mm, 
#1 Skew Chisel 8mm, 
#5 Gouge 8mm, 
#5 Gouge 20mm, 
#7 Gouge 6mm, 
#7 Gouge 14mm, 
#7 Heavy Bent Gouge 20mm, 
#8 Gouge 4mm, 
#8 Spoon Gouge 10mm, 
#9 Gouge 10mm, 
#11 Veiner 3mm, 
#12 V Parting Tool 6mm


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I am thinking that I will want to go quality from the get go so I am thinking I will get some Pfeil carving tools. The first think that hits me is palm or straight handles. Any ideas which way to go?


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> Appears to be quite the difference in price for the 12 roll of Schaff tools on Amazon. I believe it s the same set, though I didn t pour over the details.
> 
> ...
> 
> - therealSteveN


The same set is on both sites and is the same price on both. I think you may have been looking at the "premium" set on Schaaf that is $141? It's the same set but the tools are hand sharpened before shipping.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

> I am thinking that I will want to go quality from the get go so I am thinking I will get some Pfeil carving tools. The first think that hits me is palm or straight handles. Any ideas which way to go?
> 
> - controlfreak


As noted earlier in this discussion, Pfeil offers a very limited number of palm tools - eight, or 14 if you count block cutters. They offer about 400 variations of full-size, "straight handled" tools. But that is not the way to choose your carving tools. The tools you need are based on what you carve - that is, unless you have a tool fetish.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> The tools you need are based on what you carve - that is, unless you have a tool fetish.
> 
> - Phil32


Well, I do like tools. This sounds like "I need to start carving to figure out the tools I need" type thing. Kind of like the workbench I am building and see another bench utilized in every step. I think at this point I am in the market for a starter set to get my feet wet and gain some knowledge. After I read the book I just bought and doing a few exercises I may opt for some paid content that will recommend some types of gouges needed in addition to what I start with to get into fetish mode. I missed that the palm style is somewhat limited. Phil, your knowledge of carving is always appreciated.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

Even the "Make something" idea can be carried to an extreme. The walls in our home have enough woodcarvings - - really! So some are put away to make room for new stuff. Isn't that similar to putting that newly sharpened tool in a drawer? 
Always do what gives you satisfaction. When it no longer satisfies, quit it.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Phil so true. As I walk around the house and elsewhere all I see are carvings now. They fascinate me and make me wonder, can I do that?


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Well, I do like tools. This sounds like "I need to start carving to figure out the tools I need" type thing. Kind of like the workbench I am building and see another bench utilized in every step. I think at this point I am in the market for a starter set to get my feet wet and gain some knowledge. After I read the book I just bought and doing a few exercises I may opt for some paid content that will recommend some types of gouges needed in addition to what I start with to get into fetish mode. I missed that the palm style is somewhat limited. Phil, your knowledge of carving is always appreciated.
> 
> - controlfreak


The Record Power set sometimes goes on sale at Rockler for around $120 and comes with a DVD.

I have been enjoying the Mary May content and the paid options are pretty reasonable and she recommends which tools and materials to get for the various projects.

https://www.marymaycarving.com/carvingschool/getting-started-preview/#

I also found Joel's blog helpful when he was starting to learn to carve:
https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/359/Choosing%20a%20Set%20of%20Carving%20Tools


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> Appears to be quite the difference in price for the 12 roll of Schaff tools on Amazon. I believe it s the same set, though I didn t pour over the details.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Ahhhh missed that hand sharpened part. Thanks.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I have been enjoying the Mary May content and the paid options are pretty reasonable and she recommends which tools and materials to get for the various projects.
> 
> https://www.marymaycarving.com/carvingschool/getting-started-preview/#
> 
> ...


Mary May is truly a National treasure. She can break down a wonderful piece to a few easy processes, and has the ability to convey them to pretty much anyone with great ease. Incredible teacher.

Joel Moskowitz is a guy that most who have met him want him to be cloned so you can have your own personal Joel. Anyone who is interested in learning about handtools would do well to get hooked into his blog. Plus he is entirely approachable. Actually I find most woodworkers are.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/joel


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Mary May is truly a National treasure. She can break down a wonderful piece to a few easy processes, and has the ability to convey them to pretty much anyone with great ease. Incredible teacher.
> 
> Joel Moskowitz is a guy that most who have met him want him to be cloned so you can have your own personal Joel. Anyone who is interested in learning about handtools would do well to get hooked into his blog. Plus he is entirely approachable. Actually I find most woodworkers are.
> 
> ...


Fully agree, which is why I choose to put my money towards supporting people like this. Can i find tools cheaper on Amazon than I could at Tools For Working Wood? Probably. But would I rather give money to a guy with $200 billion dollars, or a fellow woodworker?


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## ClaudeF (Sep 22, 2013)

I bought one of these sets about 20 years ago. https://www.flexcut.com/home/product/fr310-beginners-palm-set I still use all five tools today. I carve mostly 3D figures (in the round) such as small animals, Santas, etc., from 4 inches to 12 inches. Later on, I bought several full size Pfiel gouges and use them at times also - depends on what I'm carving. I don't do much relief carving like Phil does, so I don't own any fishtail gouges.

As he mentioned, it depends on what type of carving you want to do… Having said all t hat, I don't recommend buying the Flexcut knives. The bevel is quite wide and that makes it difficult to push through the wood. Look for a knife that has a flat grind from cutting edge to the spine. Here's a little comparison for you: 









The thinner the blade, the easier it cuts. My modified Flexcut is one that I had a pro grind the bevel flat from cutting edge to spine. Works much better now.

Claude


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> I want to correct a number I gave about Pfeil tools - they have over 300 profiles in their full size line. That includes variations in the shape of tool shafts. For example, you can get a #5-12mm or #7-14mm in either straight, long bent, spoon bent, or fishtail. This is based on a catalog I picked up in Switzerland some years ago. It doesn t include any #6 gouges or Abegglen knives. Woodcraft is the exclusive dealer for Pfeil tools in the USA, so if you want to look at them, hold them in your hands, buy just the ones you need, you ll have to go into one of their stores. You can buy them online, of course. The catalog lists only 8 palm tools (14 if you count block cutters) and 20 intermediate size gouges.
> 
> - Phil32


Not sure I understand about the palm tools. I have 6 different sets made by Pfeil, which totals out at 40 chisels.
They are listed as A6, A8, B6, B8, C6 and D6 at Woodcraft. They also have the A6 and B6 sold as a set of 12.

As far as not breaking the bank, I've spent 20 years buying my carving tools, so over that time, no porcelain pigs were slaughtered. It did help that I sold my hot rod Buick, and was encouraged by my wife to spend some of it on carving tools. There was about $600 spent on that spree, which was a lot less than what I sold the car for, sadly.


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

Dark Lightning - When I list the individual profiles of the Pfeil palm tool sets sold by Woodcraft, I find a lot of overlap. There appear to be only 17 profiles. Some of the "new" ones are 0.5 or 1mm wide. $34 for one skinny palm tool is pretty pricey!
Likewise, I was involved in old cars (Model A Fords) before getting enmeshed in carving tools.

Phil


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> Dark Lightning - When I list the individual profiles of the Pfeil palm tool sets sold by Woodcraft, I find a lot of overlap. There appear to be only 17 profiles. Some of the "new" ones are 0.5 or 1mm wide. $34 for one skinny palm tool is pretty pricey!
> Likewise, I was involved in old cars (Model A Fords) before getting enmeshed in carving tools.
> 
> Phil
> ...


You're quite right about that, Phil. I didn't realize it until I was pretty much all in. The skinny ones do find use though, in small areas.


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## Karda (Nov 19, 2016)

I just bough the Yellowhammer 12 piece set from amazon, i was told here that it the same as the Schaff 12 piece set. i don't have other tools to judge it against but the tools are well made and they feel good in the hand. But they need some reshaping to get them to the point you can sharpen them. From working with them the steel is good and they take a good edge. i let you know how they work when I get them where that will cut good. being a beginner with limited sharpening skills i wouldn't recommend this set to a beginner unless they can reshape and sharpen them or are willing to learn, they will have to learn any way so i would get it


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