# how to sell at craft shows, flea markets, etc



## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

There is a big Backwoods Fest coming up near me. They have hundreds of vendors that come. A man that is from there saw some of my projects and told me that if I brought my stuff to this festival I would sell more than I can make. So, I got an application and it asked for my vendors license #...well I don't have one, I am not a business. So, I got online to see how to get your license and it seems you have to be a business and have a federal employer identification number. I am not a business and don't want to be one anytime soon. I don't want to share my hard earned money with the government yet. Is there anyway for me to get around this? I would also like to be able to sell at other shows, fleas markets, etc…


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## Bogeyguy (Sep 26, 2012)

You can't get around it if your going to sell it yourself. The operator has to have licensed vendors or the tax collectors will shut his show down. Perhaps your friend can sell your goods for you for a fee+taxes.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Shelly here is a great video that will help you.

I think you are talking about is a state Tax Number, most shows require the number on the applications no way getting around that but you can use your own discretion on what you want to submit to the tax office. I'm not sure about your state but in Texas you don't have to have a federal employer number to get a tax number, they are different.

Arts and Crafts Shows


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Terms may vary, but in the states I've vended at the only
thing I needed was a state resale tax number. They
aren't hard to get, but don't say you're doing business
from your home unless you want to get attention from
local agencies with their hands out.

Instead, say you vend at shows or out of your vehicle.


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## coachmancuso (Feb 10, 2013)

If you have some 55 + communities , they all have craft shows around November. The small ones do not ask for a business license. Also check with some of the local church and schools to see if they have any. The big shows are good but also the booth rental is very high. We have a big show locally that the rental is 250.00 for 2 days. You would have to sell a lot of items to make your booth rental back. In times that we are in with the economy the best is to start small. Small shows small item. 15.00 - 25.00 booth rent per day. People will like to spend 10.00 - 25.00 rather then spend 250.00 for a item. We do small shows and we sell pens, bottle stoppers, key chain, band saw boxes , shelving, candle holders , bowls, trinket boxes , magic wine bottle holde4rs, earrings ,picture frames, ect. Also the big shows charge for admission and parking so the people putting on the show make out and they do not care for the vendors at all. Hope this helps some and if you have any other specific questions let me know. Good luck


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I believe in some states you can just use your social security number as a tax ID. Ask a local accountant or lawyer.


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I would like to get my vendors license, but I don't see how you can do it without being a business. Its it possible to get a license without being a businesses? The fee to be a vendor at this festival is 300, but it its a big town by a lake withpeople attending from 25 states so I think I could sell some high priced items. I don't mind paying tax on the items i sell at the shows. I'm just not ready to go through with making myself a business.


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

You may be right Don. The form had a spot for my soc and to other numbers but it doesn't clarify if it just needs one our all 3. I am going to call the auditor tomorrow and check. If I do get it the festival wants pics of stuff I will be selling….so I will have to get busy soon! Lol I know what I wantto sell but its not made yet, I still have 2 months!


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## MyWayChipCarving (Apr 5, 2013)

I agree with Don W, it's worth checking out.


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

I am from a small town and the chance of making money around here is very low. I would have to pretty much give my stuff away. We have a very high unemployment/poverty rate. I see it A LOT in the er.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Michelle,

I believe Blackie and Loren pretty well covered it. They are more interested in a Sales Tax number. If you look on line, you should be able to find out the info you need through your State Dept. of Revenue.

Like the others have stated; the shows are just covering their own butts.

Your State Dept. of Revenue and the IRS have this belief that if you sell your work, you're a business. If you're a business, you need a business liscense and collect and pay taxes.

There's some grey area between being a hobbyiest and a business, but the Dept. of Revenue and the IRS looks at a business as a business and doesn't have much of a sense of humor when and if they ever audit someone.

Not to scare you, but that's why so many hobbyiest don't want to sell their work. You've probably noticed in my book, I talk very serious about acting like a business if you're selling your work.

The Coach may have the best advise for you and that is to stay away from the big shows for now and stay below the radar.

Good luck


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Shelly, you do have to create a business name for an Tax ID number but you can just make one up, you don't have to have a DBA (Doing Business as) for this but you prob should check with your local County Clerk's office to make sure you aren't infringing on someone else that might already be using that name inside of your county, they should have an online data base that you can check, now if you find a name that's not being used and you don't register it and later on down the road someone comes along and registers that very same name with the county clerk, then they can go after you to stop using it and here's another kicker if you are selling items under a registered name that belongs to someone else then they can get all of your profits.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Backwoods Fest cost is $300, goes to the promoter for your booth space and promoting the event.

Your vendors license is extra and comes from the town where event is held. Normally all towns have a vendors ordinance and charge a fee and it is good for a year. Some do offer special event licenses for one time events at reduce fee but, do not count on it.

Your tax ID # comes from the state, some charge an annual fee some do not. All states will come after you if do not collect and send in sales tax. With tax ID#, do not pay sales taxes on things needed for tools, equipment, or supplies for your craft if buy in state.

Federal government wants you to pay taxes on any income you generate from your craft. You have to show a profit for x number of years before they consider you a business, if not just income from a hobby.

Hobby selling can become a paperwork and up-front expense nightmare if you let it. Many of those expenses also deductable, from any income generated from the hobby.

Many Jr. colleges offer adult courses and seminars for entrepreneurs & craft people which will keep you out of trouble. I would look at doing a course or seminar before selling at any venue even though will cost some money up front will save you more than time & money later on.

Lots of crafts people have stopped doing shows because not even making expenses!


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Wildwood you are correct when buying items for your business under a tax ID number you don't have to pay taxes on anything at that time but during the quarter when you have to turn in a profit you do have to play taxes on those items that are not resalable, for instance saw blades, sandpaper, router and drill bits, etc…. when purchase at store you don't have to pay taxes but when that quarter ends you have to pay taxes on those items then but items like glue, hinges, finishes, wood etc… anything that's going to be sold then you don't, it can get complicated it took me a bit to learn and figure things out.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Shelly once you obtain a Tax ID you are able to write a lot of things off come tax time, all of your utilities including your cable bill, equipment, equipment purchased, office supplies, storage such as rooms in your house used for storing your items, shop depreciation, mileage when going to pick up items for your business even vacations in moderation can be written off as a retreat, business trips, seminars, books, software, etc…..


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

Uncle Sam gets too much o our money as it is… Good luck with it all.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Also Slelly, you have mentioned wanting to make furniture (if I remember correctly). Use these shows as a starting point. The reality of small shows is hoping you break even on the weekend and get people knowing you. Look for better shows and continue to push yourself to improve and be good at the bigger shows. I will do the fewest shows this year of the last 4. However, since the ones I do are the biggest ones that I can show my best stuff at, I am also having my best year. Just a thought.


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

Thanks everyone! There is ALOT of useful information in this thread. I knew I could count on you guys to lead me in the right direction. Sounds like I have alot of work to do that doesn't involve woodworking lol. I hate paper work! The thought of tax write offs sounds great, and it sounds like I would be better off paying taxes for non-resellable items when I buy them. I would hate to have to pay instead of get money back come tax time. I could actually go to Ohio University for free since my mom works there, so I may take a class.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Why not just put them on consignment with someone who all ready has a booth at the show? I like flea markets and tag sales but my idea of fun is not sitting under a tent all day telling the same story over and over again.

That came across salty ^. Didn't mean it like that but consigning it might save you some time spent baking in the sun and it'll save you a bit of aggravation trying to set up a tax id number and all that other stuff while allowing you to test the market for your woodworking.


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## yrob (May 26, 2008)

It is also possible to declare on your tax form whatever income you derived from your hobby. 
There is no need to have a business to sell things but then you miss out on the other advantages which are, tax write offs, liability protection (if its a llc) and so on. Many people start off by just declaring their sales as revenues from hobby before they go full bore and create a company. In some states like mine (Virginia) creating a company takes minutes, can be done online and cost relatively little. Just a few forms to downloa or fill online and pay a fee (currently a $100.00 one time fee in Virginia. see as an example: http://www.scc.virginia.gov/clk/dom_llc.aspx )


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Blackie you are entirely correct on state tax ID#'s! That is why recommend looking into seminars or course at local Jr. College.

Surprised no one talked about, quick books, accepting credit cards, and card swipe devices. There are several companies like "Square," which only charge 2.75% per transaction and money is in your account the next day.

Like another poster stated a lot of states let pay and do forms online now which makes life easier. Just starting out worry about state more than fed. If you clear $1,000 this year after expenses and list it on believe line 21 of form 1040 as hobby income Fed will not care. If going to list expenses on forms CE easy better have a record.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

Once you get the , often free, state sales tax number you ARE "a business". (A manufacturer) No big deal. Quarterly you will have to fill out some forms and send in sales tax you collected, again no big deal. You use your sales tax number to apply for tax exempt purchases at your suppliers , again no big deal. When filling out my fed income tax form I put my "business" income on the "other income" part of the IRS form….. NO BIG DEAL. It is really simple to do. Here in Texas, after the first year of the quarterly reports they let me now only do it once a year. The local city may require you pay" personal property tax" on your equipment but that is like $50 a year or so.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

*Chrisstef's* post and comment are also another option if you can find someone that's not going to scalp your earnings and profit, I tried this path but kept running into no profit, sitting under a tent one day out of a month for 7 hours and turning a profit of between $500 - $1500.00 is well worth it to me.

*Bill* is 100% correct you are better off getting a smart phone and getting a card reader, there are several to choose from, there's no charge except the interest they make which is 2.75% myself I use Intuit, it's well worth it and you get more sales. I also use quickbooks Pro just recently purchased and going through the learning curve on using it, and guess what? Since you purchased it for your business yep it's a tax write off. 

*Yrob* also hit a note on an LLC, these don't come cheap and require extra expenses and potential lawyer fees, to obtain an LLC here in the state of Texas 325.00 to register plus extra fees, to obtain a DBA cost is but only $15.00 the difference between the two LLC and DBA is price and liability, LLC if for some reason someone tries to sue you they can only touch company funds a DBA doesn't protect you they can get everything, myself I'm not worried, I only have a DBA and the only liability I have is driving for business reasons but no one knows but me that it's for business.

*Jim* Is also correct and he hit the nail right dead center, it's no big deal, and what the city doesn't know won't hurt them or you


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't see many of my items being something someone could sue me over…unless a chair breaks and they get hurt lol, but I make my stuff stronger than that So I think I would be ok with the DBA. I have thought about trying to get some stores and such to sell some of my items, but haven't came up with an item I could cost effectively split the profit of yet. I actually had an offer from one of the people I buy lumber from. He is his own business and takes things he makes to the flea markets and craft shows. He offered to take some of my stuff to see if it would sell. I am definately going to take him up on this. I have seen the smart phone credit card swipers on TV, seems like it would be pretty easy to do, and a great idea so you don't have to carry a big machine around lol. I sure hope to make over $1000 a year at this, but when tax season comes and I add it all up, I'm sure I'll be a little short It will be a good day if/when I am making enough from wood working to hire an accountant. That would be like being able to do all my nursing duties without the charting lol.


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## moonie (Jun 18, 2010)

Well gays after seeing all the stuff that Shelly going throw wont it be easyer to loud up a U-Hoal and sale out of the back than haveing to go throw all that stuff like Shelly. Like with me I build dresser's or is that not a good idel .


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

David, if you are asking for our/my opinion on this? There's right ways and wrong ways to do things, I think it depends on the individual, your idea might work but the chances of someone actually pulling over to see your goods is very slim I think, especially if you're the only one positioned on the side of the road, not to mention possible trespassing, plus you'd prob have to do it every weekend of the month in order to make any profit which would give you less time in the shop, myself I wouldn't do it.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Edited, Double Post glitch with the forum.


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## moonie (Jun 18, 2010)

Thanks Blackie I see your piont but I never thought about the trespassing.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Michelle,

I've been following your thread and read all the advice everyone has given you on how to get set up to sell some of your woodworking in this up coming show.

You've been given some really good advice, but if you add it all up, you end up with the perfect scenario for failure and disappointment.

90% of the time the reason woodworkers don't make any money selling their woodworking or get disappointed and discouraged trying is pointed out perfectly here on your thread;
• Most woodworkers want to keep it as a hobby (That way it's fun).
• But wants to make money like a business (That's fun)
• But don't want to be a business (That's not fun)
• Just wants to make money (That's fun)
• Too much effort to set up and operate like a professional business (That's not fun)
• Expects the customer to buy from them and complains if they can't get the price they should for their work. 
• Wants to operate like a back-yard, jack-leg, fly-by-night wanna-be, yet gets mad if the customer looks at them and treats them that way.
• Focuses all efforts on their woodworking and has no clue how to price, market and sell their work.
• Or they're outright lazy………let someone else do it for them.

*The smartest thing you could do concerning this up-coming show is "NOT" go as a vendor, but go as an attendee.*

Be honest with yourself; you're not prepared and can't be in the short length of time before the show. If you go to that show like a back-yard, jack-leg, fly-by-night wanna-be vendor; what do you expect to get from the show?

You're going to take a wobbly old card table and throw a table cloth on it, pile some of your work on it and hope everyone that attends the show realizes that you're a craftsman.

The most benefit you can get from that show is to go and look! Look at the vendors, look at how they display their work, look how they work the crowd, look how they act when there is no one at their booth. See what works and why.

Trust me; you will see a lot of them that hate spending the afternoon under a hot tent, hate dealing with people and not making much money and being very discouraged ………..and it will show.

It's far more important to take your time and learn how to start your business right (and you have mentioned that one day you do want to be a business), then jump in and start off on the wrong foot. 
Starting with bad business practices only leads to more bad.

It's hard to make that jump from hobbyist to professional and most woodworkers never do! They end up straddling the fence and that can take all the fun and rewards away from both sides of the fence.

Get your ducks in a row; get the proper licenses, get your sales tax number, get a business name and start setting yourself up as a legitimate business and grow from there.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

I 110% second Huff's latest advice. Trying to go from zero to show ready in 2 months is next to impossible.

Follow Huff's advice in looking at displays, see how they are built, how they get put together and how they are hauled to and from the show. Then use your ideas to make a booth ready for you.

Talk to the vendors at the show, when they don't have customers. Get their opinion of the show, the show's rules and such.

since you have never done a show, try your hand at much smaller shows such as churches and schools. You won't make much money but you will get the experiences of selling (talking to people about you and your product), booth design & setup and the application processes. You should get started NOW for shows during the holiday season.

Don't believe all of the naysayers on here that say you can't make money doing shows. I do make money at shows and do it as my full time job. I know many people who do shows as a full time income and as their only income for their family. You have to put the work into the show to make money from them.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Jim; So glad you chimmed in.

Michelle; if there is anyone that can help you with doing shows and how to get started doing them, I would put my money on the Puzzleman.

I've done a lot of shows in the past 27 years, but I don't have the expertise that Jim does. Follow his lead and you won't go wrong.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

She is not only limited to doing shows under a tent, I do a great deal of sales online through Etsy, a third of my profit comes from online sales on a monthly basis. I posted in my very first post a video that covers most of what John and Jim has stated in their comments though it is lengthy but a great video.

Shelly you've been given a great deal of advise, perhaps to much to take in at once but with all of this that's been given don't let any of it discourage you, take your time move slow and you'll figure it out.

I'm not nearly as seasoned as Jim and John are but they are correct in taking baby steps, I might be an exception as it only took me visiting one show for me to figure out how things worked along with the you tube videos, I've only done 5 shows and already have a good grasp on how things work.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Hello Shelly. I have done some follow up work on the Backwoods Fest. This is a pretty good sized show. They have serious buyers as they are paying $9 each to come in the gate to buy.

I talked to some friends in Ohio who do shows and this is a decent show in their opinion. For a first time show, I think you would be in over your head. Do some smaller shows and get your show booth and procedures down first. You need to know what you are doing when you do this show next year as this is a serious buying crowd.

PS> This show looks interesting. Asked my friends why they didn't tell me about it. Might see you there next year.


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

here is a link that is long but very good on setting up for craft shows, tells the right and wrong way. worth your time.


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## shelly_b (Aug 8, 2012)

That would be really neat to meet you there Puzzleman! I have yet to meet any fellow lumberjocks. Thanks everyone! I suppose you are right, there is no way I could be really prepared for this show. Payton is turning 4 Aug. 8th and I have taken a week off to build her a playground. And a lot of other stuff going on too. Maybe I will try and aim for some holiday shows. I would also like to get some stuff online. I have a family member who sells through ebay and has offered to try to sell some stuff for me. The only thing about that is I have to make it easy to ship….I need to find some easy/quick to make items that people will buy. I really like furniture, but it would be hard to ship. I think that would be better to take to shows, or sell online to people around here. You guys have all been a huge help. Thank you!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I just closed down my custom fishing rod business. I had to have a federal tax number to pay required excise taxes on the rods PLUS I had to collect sales tax for the state of TN. No real big deal. Check on the business license- our county doesn't require one until you reach $4K in sales in one calendar year. I was going to open a separate checking account for my business and was told I needed a business license to open a business account. Decided to use the personal account.
Basically, the requirement is to make sure the governments get their taxes. Can you imagine how much tax would be collected from, say, 300 vendors in a weekend?


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Woodsmithshop *Smitty* I think I had already beaten you to that video, second comment from the top.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Kothead62, Don't imagine all of the sales tax. Imagine all of the SALES to generate that sales tax. That's what I am talking about, SALES. Think of all those people spending $9.00 just to walk in the door to spend even more money. This is a serious shopping crowd. They mean business. This is the kind of crowd that I like. Now the question is whether I can get into the show next year and are my products what they are looking for?

Shelly b, Hope to see you there next year.
As far as products to make for smaller shows, go with lower dollar items. Smaller shows tend to have lower price points. Your turned items looked great. When you make products track your time and expenses. this will help you determine if you are making money. Making profit is what it is all about when making to sell. Check out Huff's blog on determining costs and prices. It is very excellent, straight forward and easy to read. It will help you watch your costs and determine prices.


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## Blackie_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Jim, thanks for pointing that out I need to go check Huffs as well, I still struggle on price labeling my items.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Blackie, once you do the calculations from Huffs blog, look at what your pricing will be. If you think it is too high for your market, brainstorm ways to reduce the amount of time and/or material. Those are the two major ways to make an impact on your pricing. Things like making a quantity of one item at a time. Spreads setup time over all of the items. It also decreases the amount of time involved as you develop faster skills through repetition. Now the thing is that if someone asks how long it takes to make it (a ploy to see how much money you are making on it), use your original time for making just one item.

But whatever you do, don't fudge the calculations except if you change time or materials. To not be true to yourself about your costs will cause you to lose money. The goal is to MAKE profit, not break even.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

But whatever you do, don't fudge the calculations except if you change time or materials. *To not be true to yourself about your costs will cause you to lose money.* The goal is to MAKE profit, not break even.

Not being honest or true to yourself is probably the biggest reason most woodworkers don't make a profit from selling their work.

Either we don't know the true cost of what it cost to build a project or we don't want to know.

Either way; it's a profit killer and eventually a business killer.


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