# Mitt Romney making good points about President Obama



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Mitt Romney making good points about President Obama

*

I think he brought some very clear and important points about our current President.

Everyone should watch this *before* election day.


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## lumberdog (Jun 15, 2009)

And president Obama made some good point about him.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah Barry does point out that Romney is a member of the 1%.

Of course so is Obama - even excluding his book deals since the president's official salary is 400K and ~350K is solidly 1%.
But Barry will tell you how he is just some humble guy from Chicago working the south side to help people.
Not that He and Michelle are raking in the dough.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I prefer logic and reason to lies and recriminations.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Whether you like Romney *or not*, the points made about Obama, HANDS DOWN, wins the Prize!

If you are happy with what Obama* has done*, you will be Happier if he gets re-elected!
... and you must find out what planet you're living on…

If you are NOT happy with what Obama *has done*, you will be MORE UnHappy if he gets re-elected!
... and wish you were on another planet!

If you are not happy with what Obama has done, *someone ELSE must be Elected to replace Obama* and his administration in order to SAVE our country for our Children & Grandchildren; *otherwise,* they will have it a whole lot WORSE than WE had it growing up in the Greatest Nation on earth…. *and they will wish they were on another planet.*

*IMHO…*


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Politics seems to bring out the lies and recriminations, and makes it pretty hard to find the logic and reason.

Most of what I hear about the deficit, debt, and economy strikes me as fear mongering. I'm not an economist, but I heard an interview of Simon Peter (co-author, White House Burning) who is, and he made a lot of sense to me. His primary point is that we need to decide what functions we want the federal government to perform, and then provide the appropriate level of revenue to fund those functions. The major component of the deficits over the past several years he said was due to revenue reductions, which is what happens when there is a recession. Increasing debt during recessions is exactly the right thing to do, he said, as is paying down debt (as opposed to cutting taxes) when times are good.

I think Democrats generally like to spend too much money on too many entitlements, but what they've done since Obama took office strikes me as far less scary than my impression of the Republican proposals lately. Those seem to be a lot of eliminating taxes while increasing military spending, and that strikes me as far more fiscally irresponsible.

My preference would be to cut military spending, eliminate the Bush era tax cuts completely, and tax capital gains as ordinary income.

Let's also take a hard look at all the realities of entitlements. It would be horribly expensive to guarentee every individual, no matter how personally irresponsible they have been, a comfortable retirement and/or all the health care services that they might want. So let's all get comfortable that, regarding Social Security for example, we are talking about at what point we are willing to kick little old ladies to the curb because they've run out of money. And with health care, at what point are we willing to let people die because they cannot afford health care services that might extend their lives. I have no question that we, as a society, can come up with a social safety net that is both humane and affordable, provided we look clearly and realistically at all of the issues involved.

If a Republican wanted to get my vote they would have gotten behind the Simpson-Bowles proposal, or come up with an alternative that was equally serious and honest. From what I have heard I am left to expect that Republicans are going to want to cut taxes regardless of what it does to the country, and that strikes me as far more irresponsible than anyting Obama has done (so far).


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Hope Obama goes in again, nobody want to loose a good man


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Greg:

If you don't believe how much trouble our Nation is in (as well as the rest of the world.. Greece, Spain, Europe, etc.) *you have NOT been paying attention!*

If you don't know how much money this administration has poured down a Rat Hole, *you have NOT been paying attention!
*

IMHO, if Obama has it for FOUR more years, *we will end up in a position worse than GREECE, etc….*
...primarily because the ONLY way Obama thinks he knows how to solve the Problem(s) is to SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, on more illogical boondoggles *resulting in our Nation really going Bankrupt!*

*It is THAT SERIOUS… *

This is the most important time of our entire History!

Obama must be replaced… BY ANYONE! *ANYONE, with half a brain would be better *& would probably turn our Nation around. (IMHO, Pelosi, etc. have no brains at all!)


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Joe:

When I have been paying attention these past few years I have heard a great deal of hysteria, blatent lies, and misinformation. With the upcoming presidential election I'm confident this is going to get worse.

Simon Peter is an economist talking about economics, so I'm inclined to place a somewhat high regard on his assesments because of his expertise, because of the history and data he cites, and because what he says sounds logical to me. Have a listen to his interview. As I recall, he also thinks the situation is pretty serious, but his recommended course of action is quite different than what you suggest.

Tell you what. His book is only $14 at Amazon. If you want to convince me, how about we both read it to provide a common base line to work from, and then we can discuss current economics further?


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Vote out all incumbents this year. Even if it's the local dogcatcher.
I'm voting for Alfred E. Newman.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

GergD:

*Do me a favor…*

*1. * Make a list of *everything Obama has done to improve our Nation.*

*2. * In column two, enter the total Cost he spent on it, to the nearest Billion or Trillion.

*3.* In column three, enter Yes / No to answer the question: "Did it work?".

*4. * Total it up… count the Yes's and No's…

*How good did he do?

Do you think he will do better in the Next four years?*

If Simon Peter has been trying to tutor President Obama on What and What Not to do, he has not helped at all.

I thought there was going to be an Audio interview to listen to Simon… if so, I couldn't find it.

I'm not going buy his book for $14 to possibly help an Obama election… If I can't get the basic information from the Internet, too bad. Just a general outline is all I need…

I do know that Obama has no Clue of what to do or How to do it… NONE whatsoever… All he can do is Speak well… with a Teleprompter… and blatantly lie.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I was ready to pull the trigger on that book, Greg. But, my wife needed the $14.00 to fill the gas weed eater. 
I agree with your tax recommendations….as far as they go. 
I would take it MUCH farther and set a single tax rate for every tax payer regardless of their source of income. In addition, I would eliminate ALL deductions for individuals. I would also totally eliminate corporate taxes. Corporations, as the tax system is currently structured, are merely tax collectors. They pass their tax burden on to their customers, in their pricing. 
Drastic cuts to military spending is short sighted. A better source of cuts, IMO, would be to eliminate all subsidies to corporations and cease all federal government loans and grants to business start ups.
Further, there exists so many redundant federal programs and departments that eliminating those overlaps would probably pay the interest on the debt for a couple days.
These concepts might seem simplistic to some, but I'm just a simple guy.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Gene: alas but such a pipe dream. You know the politicians are not going to do anything to upset their gravy train.
Good idea though.


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

...yep, I miss President Reagan and $.89/gal. gas.

Several unpaid Military conflicts later and the Wall Street up and comers, Banks with great imginative loans, and Corporations putting Bottum Lines and Stockholders ahead of their employees and products, and jobs going north, south, east, and west of our boarders, what man under his own power, can back that truck up?

Several administrations have tried to pull back the reigns on that mustang. Too much going on, too fast.
Arguing back and forth across the aisle hasn't worked well for decades.

My Mother would have sent those political and corporate big wigs to there rooms and told them not to come out till they got their differences settled.

So I think my Mom should be President, she raised 3 girls and 3 boys and brought it all in under budget.

...just sayin'


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

The biggest problem I have with these things is the focus that the commentaries have on the opponent. I personally do not feel that any of the presidents came into the White House with the intention of "destroying the country." All had ideas on what the problem is and what can be done to fix it. If the problem was solely one specific leader then peace and prosperity would surround that leader's term. Obviously, that isn't the case. I don't care what one opponent thinks about another. What I care about is what one is intending to do about the problem and what they perceive the problem to be. And I don't want to just hear the promise of prosperity. Show me the map you have on how we are going to get there.

David


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I love the fact that with your post I get two adds promoting the reelection of President Obama. Thanks Joe for your effort.









@ Greg: I find, that I don't talk about economics with republicons, it's like science and they don't receive it well. I agree that the conversation is framed in a manner where asking the proper questions, Like where do we raise revenue to reduce our deficit spending? is greeted with accusations that you are not paying attention or other accusatory rhetoric. John Adams had it right, we must be on guard against the tyranny of the one, the few and the many. We have unlimited wants and limited means. But the greatest thing about this country is the people, and we the people united can do anything, but divided and hating we can do nothing.

Joe if I do want to know what Romney is going to say, I will just go to the drudge report or tune into fox. That way I will know in advance what his talking points will be. But thanks for posting the video link.

The Senator Lieberman said it best, "Mame(addressing the lady holding a sign with the president depicted as a Nazi) I would rather debate that table.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

How hard is it to understand a $15+ trillion deficit? I don' t need a book to tell me how toxic that is.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Joe how many people vote for the man or the parties?
I would say that 85% are voting for their party and not for the man.


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

Well that was enlightening.

Tomarrow let's discuss Religion.

Not! ...just kidding. 

Have a Great evening LumberJocks. - Len


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

David, I'm with you! *It's Show Me Time!*

The ONLY thing I want to hear from ANY candidate is:

*What they intend to DO… When?... Why? ... and HOW? ...*

I don't give a Rat's Ass about any BS about one candidate against another candidate…

It's now Show Me Time… *Candidate vs Fixing our Nation!
... and have some type of Binding Contract with America that it's NOT just a bunch of Lies…
... but, a Good Faith Plan of attack & victory!* (How that can happen is probably a Dream!)


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

@Mel Like where do we raise revenue to reduce our deficit spending?

When do we cut *spending* to reduce our deficit *spending*?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Joe….....Obama will never tell us his true intentions.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

I just wrote the following letter to my Elected Officials; Congress & President the other day…

=============== Start ==================

Well, we have a problem…
We want to spend MORE money than we HAVE!
(oops, we have been doing that Big Time for years!) *We just like to Spend 
MONEY!*

*It's that simple… Really Simple!*

*STOP SPENDING MONEY* for any & ALL New Areas / Problems… NO matter how 
important they are!

*How can we DO THAT?*

*If Something is SUPER important and MUST Happen:*

*1. * Find areas of Old Spending that are no longer needed or not needed at 
their present levels of spending… and CUT them to get money to pay for 
it!

*2. *Pay for the NEW Important item with the funds FREED by step #1.

*3. * DO NOT SPEND ANY NEW MONEY… NO MATTER WHAT!

*There is waste galore in ALL of your Spending areas..*. ALL of the various 
areas BOOST their Budget requests probably knowing they will not get 100% 
of what they want… but a raise is better than nothing. *NONE of their 
Budget is based on what they REALLY NEED… it's only to Satisfy What THEY 
WANT!* Big Difference!

*DoD programs and Contracts can be CUT / Reduced!* Cost Plus Percentage is 
a farse… Increase / inflate the Costs, get the Percentage, and make out 
like Bandits!

Make it known that things are changing and we expect EVERYONE to take a 
CUT to help our Country… *The Gravy Train has reached it's destination!*

*DO NOT Raise Taxes!* Doing so will reduce the total income. Bad for the 
Economy.

*REMOVE Regulations and Red Tape that is Strangling all kinds of Business! *
Let the FREE Markets FLOW! Will increase income without raising taxes. 
Pay OFF OLD Debt with that money!

*Stop Spending New Money… replace the NEW spending by Cutting Old 
Spending!

It's THAT Simple!*

All you have to do is have the GUTS to do it!

Thank you very much!

Sincerely,

=============== End ==================


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
The Truth comes Out! He will have more Flexibility in 2nd term than he has NOW?!
*

Well… I don't like it at all…

(of course, I don't like anything he does… it's like that old Reagan Joke… He's always Screwing UP!)


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

As long as the Republicans control the Congress Obama will be in constant turmoil. He can't do much of anything w/o congress. Here lies the problem. The whole damn bunch can't get along so it makes no difference who is in the WH. The solution is to vote them all out and start over.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Howie… You're right.*..BUT, Obama has managed to get his people spread out to get other things DONE that He wants to do that does NOT need the approval of Congress… Atty. Gen., Sec. State, Dir. of Homeland Security, and the Czars, etc. etc…. ALL of which are doing a lot to literally DESTROY America. It's unbelievable of the damage they have done and what they're continuing to do! * IT MUST STOP!!*


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Joe,

Your post #19 gives me hope that we have some common ground. I would like candidates to present meaningful descriptions of their positions and intentions.

But we probably have very different ideas of what makes up "meaningful descriptions". Romney's speech was mostly a collection of characterizations of Obama, and most of those were unsubstantiated.

For example, I heard an economist on the radio yesterday state that historically, recessions caused by financial crises have slow, tentative recoveries. The current recovery, he said, was caused by a financial crises and is following the historical trend. So if Mit or you want to convince me that Obama messed up the recovery, frame it with accepted economic theory that makes clear the preferred fiscal policy. The economy is a complicated beast. My understanding of it is not very sophisticated and yours doesn't seem much deeper.

I'm sure I've heard several economists point out that during a recession, increasing the federal deficit helps the economy recover faster while cutting the federal deficit drives the recession deeper and delays the recovery. At least Paul Krugman and Simon Peter. Their description of how the economy works and what fiscal policy will work best during the recovery sounds a lot more sensible to me. Deficits and debt aren't good things, but better than the alternative in a recession.

So my best guess is that Obama's handling of the economy might have been flawed, but was probably not horrible. I've got nothing good to say about his "cash for clunkers" and related programs, however, even though they got me $1200 back on my new A/C system that year.

By contrast, it is my understanding that Krugman at the time (and all the time since) was extremely critical of the Bush tax cuts because they would increase the deficit during an economic expansion - exactly the time when reducing deficits and debt is best. Even I thought they were stupid, although they reduced my taxes a grand or two.

In the end I guess we get what we deserve. I don't think either one of us has a sufficient grasp of economics to make a truly informed opinion on the relative economic implications of the Obama and Romney positions. But come November we'll still cast our votes and believe that we know what we're doing.

Happy Easter tomorrow!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Do we really need more corporate welfare and tax cuts for the 1%? Maybe there will be further consolidation where less than 100 people own more than half of the assets in the US?

I have seen 2 big economic set backs in the construction industry in my lifetime. The first was in the early 80's. the work volume recovered but the price structure never did. The second was in 2008. The price structure dropped further with more and more illegal aliens living in the projects they are building. Just how much further down can we go? Every one living in cardboard huts around the plants? This is common in Mexico! China builds the workers high rise dorms for there free market slaves. Biggest problem with that is suicide by jumping off the top floor ;-((


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

Joe,I agree with what you are saying but….the problem is the next person will appoint his/her puppets and it starts all over again.
BTW,I did not vote for Obama. Not because I didn't like him, I didn't like his wife but that's another story all by itself.
Vote them all out!!!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*First of All, you cannot change just ONE thing to fix the economy…

Your AC, where you saved $1,200, probably helped stimulate China more than it did us! A JOKE!*

This idea of Spending & Spending MORE than ALL Presidents COMBINED in History CANNOT BE GOOD for ANYTHING! He didn't WISELY spend it! He poured it down a rat hole! We have NOTHING to show for it except a huge DEBT & a few millionaires (maybe billionaires!) that just stuck their money in a foreign bank!

Saying that spending like a drunken sailor, without doing anything else, will IMPROVE a recession is pure BS.

*Let's look at it like a human body.*..
... it has blood, vessels to carry it, and a heart to circulate it… as well as nerves to report to the brain how everything is doing. Of course, it's more complicated than that…

Temperature Normal? Not 106?
Any Circulation? Body limbs numb?
Blood pressure Too High / Low?
Blood too thick / thin?
Heart pumping good?
Valid information reaching the brain? Nerve problems?
Veins & Arteries clear for good transportation?

More than ONE thing must be done to make the body feel better so it can happily Function!

*
=============================

Our Nation is Seriously Sick.

*

Temperature is over 100 and RISING!

The Economy on Stimulus

The blood circulation is VERY LOW because the heart is getting tired of pumping… the arteries & veins are clogged with ridiculous Rules, Regulations, taxation, licenses, red tape, & MORE Red Tape.
Businesses were not able to Function and have gone bankrupt resulting a very High Unemployment Rate… there is NO REASON for them to try again! Obama says one thing and just ADDS more crap into the arteries to slow it more!

*Rules & Regulations:*

*The EPA is probably the worst offender*... they are doing more harm than good because their employees are NOT qualified to do the work they're supposed to do. They are running out of ideas on how to keep our Water & Air clean and are grabbing at straws for anything they can think of… Like banning the use of certain Lawn mowers, trimmers, etc. to burning wood, etc. in a home Fireplace! (when their cars driven to enforce such laws would pollute more than what was outlawed!) They have had their day… It's time to either shut'em down or reorganize them educating them to do the job right. Lighten up on ridiculous restrictions to UNCLOG many arteries.

*ObamaCare, with it's huge unknown demand on businesses MUST be repealed and trashed! * No New Business will startup as long as it looming in the background shoving unwarranted insurance restrictions on them at unknown costs. Arteries are plugged very well with huge bunch of plaque in them! Existing businesses are getting numb hanging on to a small breath.

*The IRS and current tax code needs to really be abolished* and replaced with something simpler.

Small Business under Current Tax Code

*Energy… OIL… Natural Gas.*

It's time to acknowledge what we have and what we don't have & what has to be done to get what we need.

*It's a fact that we have Natural Gas.*.. a lot of it… 
If every vehicle in our nation was running on Natural Gas instead of Oil derivatives, we would NOT be as dependent on Oil as we are now… Providing an immediate Price Rebate to the Seller for making the conversions, would be one way to get it happening ASAP. Most of the infrastructure is already in place and would not be difficult to expand upon. A very FAST way to reduce our dependency on OIL. And make sure WE USE OUR NG instead of exporting it!

*And a host of other things can also be done.*

I'm getting very tired of trying to explain all of this *to deaf ears…
*
In short, Obama has NO CLUE of what to do and How to do it!

*Our next President and Administration Must be changed to New Leadership…

To SAVE our Nation!*

*Have a nice Easter / Passover!*


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I contend that Obame knows precisely what he is doing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Looks like you guys still want more of the reforms of the last 30 years that destroyed the middle class, allows anybody including foreigners to dump billions into our elections and has turned Congress into a bunch of whores lower than common street walkers.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"I contend that Obame knows precisely what he is doing."

*
Very well could be… He's playing his appointees like a Violin!

That's why he must be stopped!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

WE have an American version of the Taliban ;-) http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2012/04/03/sen-olympia-snowe-back-to-the-1950s/?utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=PIMail:%20Local&utm_campaign=PIMail:%20Local


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)




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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Joe,

I'm listening to you and I'm not deaf. The videos with the little girl are inflammatory noise devoid of substance and not worth viewing. The economy is nothing like the human body, so using one as an analogy for the other isn't very meaningful.

We do agree that my $1200 A/C tax credit was stupid. I put it in a local credit union, not an offshore bank, but it didn't stimulate the economy. Neither did extending the Bush tax cuts for me. Neither did suspending the payroll tax. These just changed the balances in my bank accounts and didn't affect my spending at all.

My guess is that the tax changes the Republicans are clamoring for would put even more money in the bank accounts of the wealthiest individuals. My guess is that Obama's stimulus on the spending side was an awful lot smaller than the Republican-proposed changes on the revenue side. While I'll agree with you that the Democrats want to spend more than we can afford, the Republicans want to reduce tax revenues more than we can afford. I'll vote for a candidate of either party that will focus on fiscal responsibility. Until that happens, I'm going to vote for what I believe to be the least worst. And what the Republican party is currently pushing sounds much worse to me than Obama's record. I can understand people seeing things different on this. But I don't have much regard for the "anyone but Obama" crowd.

Personally, I would prefer we end the tradition of getting health care insurance through employment.


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## joebloe (Feb 13, 2012)

ANY BODY BUT OBAMER 2012 !!!!!!!!!!!! VOTE THEM ALL OUT 2012!!!!!!!!!


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*@Greg…... Personally, I would prefer we end the tradition of getting health care insurance through employment.
*

Just curious, what would this solve?


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

@RockyTopScott, OK I will give it a try, (Even though I feel it's like talking to a table). The idea at the very bottom of health insurance is that you spread the risk and everyone pools the money. Just the basic idea of insurance. With health insurance in the US the biggest pool you can get is everybody. If everyone is in the pool then everyone pays the smallest amount. The overhead cost of government insurance is about two percent. The overhead cost of for profit insurance is thirty percent. There are thirty-four developed countries in the world and in only one is it legal to make a profit on health insurance.








The map shows the countries that don't provide universal health care in gray. We have some nice company, don't we?
So back to your basic question, "What would it solve?" For starters business in the US would not have to compete with business off shore that don't have to pay for their employees health insurance directly. Maybe we could stop spending sixteen percent of our GDP on health care and get it down to the same level as other developed nations.
We have the largest single country GDP in the world, and we spend a greater percentage of that on health care than any other nation, while not covering everyone.

I just know I am wasting my breath, because in the next few responses I will get told about how all the right wingnuts distrust the guberment. Then they will tell me they know a guy/person who hates the healthcare in Canada/UK/France/Germany. But just in case you wanted an answer, there it is. Well at least a couple of reasons, there are more.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Greg,*

OK, you're ALL for Obama as the next President.

I ask you… *WHY?!*

I am NOT for OBama as the next president…

... because I want our great Nation Fixed and Saved from further oblivion.
... I do not want to witness the Final Flush of the toilet that he is controlling!


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Besides all this nonsense of not wanting our Great Nation flushed away, what is it specifically that you want from a president that you are not getting from Obama?

You've made a lot of posts about fiscal responsibility and yet the Republicans have a horrible record in that regard, according to a recent paper they spent about 28% more than Democrats from 1967-2006, when comparing a Democrat controlled congress vs Republican controlled.

Higher employment… neither congress nor the president can employ more people without spending tax payer money, the only people who can do that are the capitalists. The reasons for unemployment aren't a secret… offshore outsourcing, manufacturing moved overseas, and increased automation are just a few… the government can't fix this for you. Sure, they could abolish the minimum wage and deregulate all the industries, turning our workplace conditions back 150 years and we can all roast marshmallows when Lake Erie catches fire again. As it is, every waterway in my state has advisories to limit eating fish and in some areas fishing or swimming is forbidden.

Gas prices - I'm not going to base my vote on the price of gas, it's idiotic. Awhile back, one my my family posted some nonsense about remember the price of gas when you vote in November. I asked her if the price of gas falls come November if she would change her vote-still haven't gotten a reply on that one.

That said, I voted for Obama because the Republican choice was terrible (I will never consider anyone who would have Palin for a running mate), not because I'm an Obama fan. In fact, I don't really like him that much but he has been a good president. Romney is the least detestable GOP candidate but he's weak and flip flops too often, even the Republicans don't like him, his chances of being elected are not very good.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

i'm getting pretty old and i have voted for a long time in presidential elections only 3 won.one was Nixon he got booted out, he said he would get us out of Vietnam and being in the military at the time seemed like the right thing to do.and Clinton he wasn't a bad president left office with a surplus and a smaller government than any other president , then Obama the jury's still out on him he came into office that was left on the brink of collapse by the president before him hes not been that bad but then all you can compare him to is Bush and the mess he left him he would make anyone look good Obama what he has had to deal with coming out of the gate has done a good job Romney is pretty much bought and paid for by special interest groups.if you are getting your information from FOX new you are being deceived that is the most untrustworthy new channel there is.if you don't think so i'll take a wager i'll watch FOX news and you watch any other news 'let say msnbc their perrty much to the left and at the end of a month ill give you 100 bucks for every lie you can prove and you give me the same for every one fox tells you,ll be broke in no time


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

wormil:

You have not been keeping yourself informed about what Obama and his Appointees have been doing!

A book could be written on the subject!

I have done this time & time again… and you want me to repeat myself again!

I will try to make a list, post to my website, and just start giving everyone a Link to it!

Many things are so obvious it's pathetic.

Later…


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I thought this was a woodworking forum!!!


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Joe, I posted specifics and you didn't. I asked for specifics and you haven't answered. I can understand not wanting to repeat yourself but you did start the conversation.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)

This is in Real Time. It'll probably be to small to read by the time Amazon downsizes it to get it on here. The Middle Number, US Total Debt, and the Interest on Your Debt was spinning so fast it was almost impossibble to read it.

I have NO Desire to enter into a Discussion as to "Who's The Best". Thank You.
=========================================================================









=========================================================================

*Some Clarity because it's so Small.*

US Total Debt: $57,271,604,444,418.00

Total Debt Per Us Citizen: $180,784.00

Total Debt Per Family: $691,004.00

Total Personal Debt: $15,962,056,528,918.00

Total Personal Debt Per US Citizen: $50,944.00

Unfunded Liability Per US Taxpayer: $1,044,188.00

Bear In Mind these figures are already about 20 Minutes Old, so the Top figure has now increased by a Few Hundred Million.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

*@Jeepturner. The overhead cost of for profit insurance is thirty percent.*

Source?.....or did you just make this up to support your position?


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## SteviePete (May 10, 2009)

I got lost this morning. Ended up on Gasbagjocks.com? Go figger. Off Topic? I'll go sweep the shop.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

*That said, I voted for Obama because the Republican choice was terrible (I will never consider anyone who would have Palin for a running mate)_*

I suspect that was true of a lot of people. If McCain won, we were just one heartbeat away from having that loose cannon as president.
I voted for Ralph Nader. Wasted vote? Not really. At least I voted. Lots of people b**** about the politicians but then you find out they didn't even vote.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

*I thought this was a woodworking forum!!!*

Why do I have to look at a pop up advertising Mooshell if it's a woodworking forum?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

If you have the "vision" to look at ALL the information that's out there about Obama, you need to watch this.
THE OBAMA DECEPTION It goes FAR DEEPER than Obama. He's just a "front man". Hand picked.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The pure simple fact of the matter is that both the Democrats and the Republicans are responsible for our huge debt and big government. They both just contribute to the problems in different ways and I don't see it changing any time soon because neither party is interested in doing anything serious about the debt and other problems that we face - they just want to get reelected and kick the can down the road.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Rocky - My employer already holds my paycheck over my head. I think that is enough. I'd prefer my health insurance, like my house and car insurance, be outside the scope of my relationship with my employer. But if I loose my job, or decide to strike out on my own, I'm afraid I would not be able to keep my health insurance except for a limited time. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I thought that insurance is way more expensive for a familiy as an individual plan than when obtained through say a large employer (counting both the employee plus employer contributions).

I'd also prefer that most routine health care services be paid out-of-pocket and limit insurance to major medical. But health care providers seem to offer competative prices only to large insurance networks and gouge individuals, based on the huge adjustments to the service price I see when my insurance pays our claims.

I'm not a big fan of Obamacare. But I'm more put off by the alternatives pushed by Republicans. Why not socialize basic, low cost heath care? Like the system in the UK - they cover everyone but not everything. If people want to buy insurance that covers additional stuff, or providers that cost more than market rate, great. Socialized medicine has its challenges certainly, but it is not a great evil. I'd support a free-market solution that was, on balance, no worse. Obamacare could have ended up being a lot better, I think, except we let the fear mongers and other self-interests dominate the debate and formulation. For example, the whole "death panel" lie was pushed by people that knew this was a lie in a cynical - and successful - attempt to subvert the public discussion.

Oops. I really wanted to stay focused on economic issues.

Joe - I can respect a lot of reasons for not liking Obama as president. But I hear a lot of overstating his negatives and understating his positives. I'd prefer to use a balanced view of his performance as "the bar" and look for someone better than that. I'm going to try and focus on substance and try ignoring the marketing hype of both sides. If Romney was running as an independent, I'd be very interested in him. But the Republican Party's infatuations with Bachmann, Perry, Gingrich, and Santorum make me want to have nothing to do with anyone they choose.

BTW, the price of gas is the last thing anyone should consider when choosing a president. Don't we all know that gas prices are inflated by Big Oil and Futures Speculators? <grin> It seems to me that Econ 101 provides a clear explaination for the current high gas prices - supply and demand.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Greg, you are correct in your assumption that coverage is more expensive as an individual purchaser as opposed to employer based. On average employers pay about 50% - 70% of the cost of health insurance for employees…where do you plan to recoup that contribution they make?

You said "I'd also prefer that most routine health care services be paid out-of-pocket and limit insurance to major medical"...this is exactly what a High Deductible/HSA plan does which was part of the Medicare Moderinization Act passed by Bush in 2003. YOu should ask your employer to consider this.

As a side note if you work for an employer with more than say 300 employees, your employer self-insures the health plan…they don't purchase insurance, so the coverage details are determined by your employer.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*wormi:*

C'mon! I told you what I was going to do…

You will see it when I'm done…

*Now, get OFF your fricken High Horse!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

How many of you have really watched that video, *"The Obama Deception"*, from Start to Finish with an Open mind?!

If you have started to watch it and then STOPPED because you thought "It's just more Scare Tactics", you are missing the boat… you are hiding your head in the sand… you are missing the Forrest for the Trees… and, as a result, you are falling into their trap… like sheep or cattle being herded to slaughter!

As I watched that video, many of the thoughts I have had suddenly became very clear an understandable!

I remember way back when Greenspan was bad mouthing the Internet and the Stocks that were going up in the frenzy and warning about it… and when it looked like his warnings were landing on deaf ears, he took further action, that IMHO, purposely caused the POPPING of that bubble and caused the stock market to tumble like we have never seen it before… I remember posting on a Financial forum that I thought Greenspan purposely trashed the stock market… and shortly thereafter Greenspan starts talking about resigning… Things cooled down & he didn't resign… a few months went by… other problems started to happen… and I mentioned AGAIN that I thought Greenspan purposely trashed the market & the economy… This time he stated that he would resign (getting out of the hot kitchen) and he did it… He resigned. To me, that action confirmed that he did what I had thought all along… Now, that I see that he was also a member of that elite billionaire group, I have no doubt about it! That Video has uncovered the horrible truth of what has been happening and IS happening in our world right now.

That video, *"The Obama Deception"*, is true… and we should all do what we can do to STOP it (if there is anything we can do!).

After watching it… *and seeing how election fraud is also part of the main scheme of things, I wonder that even if we ALL rose up and voted against this Fraudulent President, would our votes really be counted?! Is it already TOO LATE to stop it?! That is my biggest worry right now…*

All we can do is try…

*Keep an open mind and watch that Video all the way through… be prepared to pause it once in a while to take a break… it is 1 hr 53 min.s long!
*

Bob, thank you for posting the link to it!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

One of the things that I'm really concerned about is that many of you will vote for Obama just because you like his so-called ObamaCare insurance plan & would like to see it happen… maybe you have some other reasons too… All of which are really very superficial and will end up doing more DAMAGE to our country.

*
Facts About Obama that I do not like:

*

*Watch this video! The Obama Deception

*


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

@RTS 
http://www.pnhp.org/publications/nejmadmin.pdf

In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States,
or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration
accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States
and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance
program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers
was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers'
administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

I didn't spend much time, but I thought that a report in the The New England journal of Medicine might not get your "The media is too liberal" hackles up. I know it is ten years old but the profits of the big insurers area going up every year.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The Journal is a very respected and reputable publication.

I read the pdf article and was unable to find the 30% overhead cost at for profit carriers you mentioned in post #38 so I presume you did make it up to support your ideology.

You are correct about one thing, you didn't spend much time on it.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

RTS and apparently you didn't read it or you don't understand that administration cost is overhead. But that's alright I don't like debating the table. You can and will presume what ever you want.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Now, get OFF your fricken High Horse!

No high horse, just participating in the conversation. What may be obvious to you, is not obvious to everyone. Perhaps you are enlightened and I am misinformed as you suggest, or maybe it's the other way around. No way to find out without being specific is there?

Facts About Obama that I do not like:

I asked what you want but aren't getting. I don't like being rude but when you start out with birther and czar nonsense I can't take you seriously. The list also lacks specifics, just throws around vague accusations. It shows you haven't challenged or developed your own beliefs and are accepting silly talking points as fact.

Watch this video! The Obama Deception

I'm already familiar with NEW WORLD ORDER conspiracy theories.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

According to conservative think tank, The Heritage Foundation, private healthcare administration costs 2X more than Medicare administration. According to The New England Journal of Medicine, private costs about 3.25X more than Medicare. More here, with citations:

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004083


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*wormi:*

I'm convinced that ANYTHING I say, True or False, you would not agree with in any way.

I want everything that Obama is NOT doing that he SHOULD be doing…
... so far, he has not done ONE GOOD thing… NOT ONE!
I do want to discontinue his DisService in office and let someone with a little more know-how have a chance at it.

So, with that, I will not waste anymore time with you!

You vote will be OFFSET by MY vote… guaranteed!


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

Joe you have the right to believe any thing you want and too vote and promote any body you want and if somebody say you cant i'll be side you and help in a fight to protect that i'm not afraid of a good fight.i know that my freedom and yours didn't come from no potiticans,no Democrats,no Republicanism no party at all it from the one in service ones that die defending it in many wars some that was political more than others.its your right but i don,t see it and my head is not stuck in the sand.whats wrong with everybody having insurance i like it tax me some more if it can happen.i don't waste my time watching others finding i find my own facts .and if somebody don't like me because i don't support Romney and believe he trying to piss down my neck and tell me its raining that's my right and i think if somebody wanted to take that right away from me you and other on here would be there by my side too.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Insurance & taxes is Peanuts compared to my point…

The future of our Nation is more important than insurance, taxes, etc…

Obama will kill our Nation… I do not want that.

It's that simple.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If everything he tried to do hadn't been stopped by the threat of filibuster in the Senate and the Gutless Harry Reid not calling their bluff, things could be a lot different. 100% buy American in the stimulus program would have been a big one!


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

Joe, Obama cant kill a nation.by the way i have seen the Obama deception show seen it many years ago then it was aim at someone else Ho they changed the names a bit and added some current event but the same show and its wicked.the word would be maybe better used sound bits .r B.S. but the word wicked came to mind. that word came about from the word wick a twisted fiber for candles but when truth and lies become twisted it becomes wicked i believe it caused many people to be burned at stake in one era of time.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A vote for Romney is a vote for more Wall Street thievery and "0" law enforcement on that front. Too bad Eric Holder convinced Obummer to bail out instead of breakup and prosecute ;-(( Would you expect anything else from a corporate attorney general? None of these clowns would make a pimple on the ass of any of the founding fathers.


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

Joe, hate doesn't become you, please quit watching Fox news.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Go Joe Go


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Oh boy, a two hour Alex Jones video. I'm afraid I don't have the bandwidth (and wouldn't waste the time if I did) to watch but I'm guessing from what I know of Jones that we're treated to ominous tales of how Obama is secretly in cahoots with sinister forces. He'll take away our guns and reduce us to slaves of our one world government overlords. Maybe next Joe, you'll post the one where he explains G. W. Bush's complicity in the 9/11 attacks. After that we can hear how LBJ conspired with the Israelis to sink the USS Liberty. Later he can fill us in on how the Chinese are using their "total control of the weather" to promote the global warming myth. I only hope there is enough time to watch them all before FEMA sends me off to a internment camp that they've built at the direction of the Bilderbergs or the FreeMasons or the Illuminati or whoever in the hell is behind the New World Order.

Seriously, this kind of bunkum is a detriment to the conservative movement. It just enforces the idea that the base is a bunch of irrational, angry, paranoid whackjobs who are easy prey for every grifter clever enough to tap their fears with half truths, bull******************** and lunacy. Alex Jones' stuff makes Glenn Beck's chalkboard look like the Federalist Papers. If you're getting emails from somebody linking to this stuff you'd be better off adding them to your spam filter. Sign up for a Scientology mailing list, their stuff is more imaginative and just as credible.

"One of the biggest problems with the world today is that we have large groups of people who will accept whatever they hear on the grapevine, just because it suits their worldview - not because it is actually true or because they have evidence to support it. The really striking thing is that it would not take much effort to establish validity in most of these cases … but people prefer reassurance to research."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Rocky - I would expect to pay the entire cost of my health insurance, just like I pay for the total cost of my car and home insurance.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*eddie:* Obama's full Administration and Others Can, are doing it as we speak, and will continue to do it until it's DEAD!

*tomd:* I do not Hate anyone… I don't LIKE Obama and his Administration Ruling our Nation… I DO NOT WATCH FOX NEWS either!

*=====================================================*

*Can someone answer just one simple question?*

*Why *has Obama spent millions of dollars to *HIDE & keep secret,* his real birth certificate and education records, when any other president in history would have been proud to disclose such things and make Landmarks out what they could?

*WHY?*

I would like to know a legitimate answer to that simple question!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
I'll bet all of you that are FOR Obama also think there is NOT any Voter Fraud in our Country!

*


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

wormi:

Okay, Joey.

I'm convinced that ANYTHING I say, True or False, you would not agree with in any way.

When I enter a conversation like this it isn't to hear echos of my thoughts but to understand why others believe as they do and to test myself and them to see if we can articulate those reasons.

So, with that, I will not waste anymore time with you!

Is it wasted time simply because I don't seem to agree or because I asked for specifics? Five minutes of effort will prove that all birther conspiracy theories are baseless and yet you waste time on that.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Jeepturner…are you one of those liberals that confuses health insurance with health care administration?

Read your own pdf again, it is not talking about for profit health insurance being at 31%.

It says clearly 11.7%, not 30% for private insurers.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Santorum Quits

*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*wormi*

*
Have you actually WATCHED this Video?
... and you refuse to think otherwise?!

*

Your mind is closed… is made up… I'm tired banging my head… for nothing…!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I can't understand why anyone wants to continue the policies that have destroyed the middle class and shipped all the good jobs overseas? Except for maybe a few billionaires that have never worked a day in their lives and could care less about living in a 3rd world country.


----------



## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

*Joe* i know there is fraud in elections,and politics is as crooked as a dogs leg ,like bush was really elected .im glad to hear that you don.t use fox news . i have read many of your views and can tell by them you,re not uneducated in matters actually you seem to be patroitic ,we just dont agree on issues,

*RockyTopScott* I am for insurance the public option would have been good.i see you like the letter to Colossians me to very up lifting i also like 1:12 thur1:18 sometime i forget these verses thanks for haveing it on your do dad thing by your name i had to look it up and read it and just kept on reading it its a great letter full of truth


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*eddie:*

My Main issue is:

*I want our Nation Saved and Obama will not do it!*
That is my ONLY real issue…

Once that is handled, the rest falls into place.

*You don't agree with that?*
In other words, you like Obama and what he (and his Admin, et al) are doing to our Nation?!


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## MuseumQuality (Mar 27, 2012)

Joe, if you are going to blast people for already having their mind made up, shouldn't you also keep an open mind? I'm sorry you feel like you are "banging your head for nothing," but I don't see it that way. Either you are trying to participate with someone in an exchange of ideas or you are just trying to make someone think your way.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

Belgium didn't think this would happen to them

*
I'll give you one guess what Pres. Obama thinks of this…
... it's coming to our Nation…
... they are working on it very hard…

If you don't know what Sharia Law is… be prepared to learn about the worst vicious Law in the World.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

eddie:

*Atty. Gen. Holder wants (and is trying) to relax Voter control…*
... I wonder why…

They (the current Administration) are so obviously crooked, it's pathetic!


----------



## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

Joe, i love our nation and don't like a lot i see,a president and his administration which is a lot considering his cabinet and others are a round 3,500 people weld a big stick.but you see they are not all powerful to bring or kill a nation.and to me Holder is just a idiot i liked the other guy that the congress wouldn't approve can;t remember the name thou.but they don't control a fate of a country even we the people cant do that,Hay Joe who ever gets in there it was always in control and allowed them there was one.i don't like some of the ones in there but had and have to live with it i don't loose any sleep over it i know who is in control and it aint me.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

eddie…

I have News for you… *They ARE doing it*... as we speak…

... you would NOT believe it…

A book could be written on what they're doing & how they're doing it…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

It doesn't really matter who you vote for unless you are in a swing state. It is the 20% of independents in the middle in the swing states who make the decision.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

*Joe* 
your right i don't believe it,they have written books on it i quit reading them a long time ago.do you think that they are in control they aint and never will be.

*TopamaxSurvivor* i think it dose matter to vote i agree that some times it can swing things one way r the other like Nader helped give Florida to g.bush but like i told Joe he got in there and had to live with it.he just wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer but one time he was on tv on some show r something and he had me LOL he has a sense of humor he was asked if he thought dose everybody disliked him he laughs and said no he was up in Canada and everyone was waving to him and they were using all their fingers now that was funny and he knew it was.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Let the light shine bright Joe, let it shine.

I wonder what the libs will do when Obama has the US military under UN control and they start firing on US citizens?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I know it matters and I always do, but it will not change the fact that OR, WA and CA will be in Obama's column in the electoral college.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*I wonder what the libs will do when Obama has the US military under UN control and they start firing on US citizens?*
Probably bow towards the east since they are anti-gun and can't shoot back ;-((


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*eddie:*

Thank you… I'm not a bit surprised… Someday, I hope you WILL be surprised… End of conversation.

*RockyTopScott:*

I wonder what the libs will do when Obama has the US military under UN control and they start firing on US citizens?

Everyone already KNOWS about that little maneuver they are working on… *But, they don't believe it!*
... what a pity… what a shame… We ARE trying!! LOL

*TopamaxSurvivor:*

You're probably right on all counts… But, we can still TRY to get people to see the light and the TRUE scary stuff that they are working on…

I hope I don't *see *it happen… It scares the crap out of me just thinking about what our kids & grandkids will be facing & hope they make it OK.

I don't understand how people can be so blind… Maybe they just don't care… "It can't happen to me" syndrome!

*Hint:* DO NOT give up your guns…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Obama Thinks Free Market Capitalism is Social Darwinism

*
A recent example of Obama happenings…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

In order to have a free market system you have to have competition. WE have advanced far beyond a free market into the final cannibalistic monopoly stages. In the last 30 years the consolidation has ended any form of competition in the consumer markets. Gillette dictates the price of razor blades. Verizon and AT&T dictate wireless prices. Rockefeller's Standard Oil is reuniting. There is very little real news put out by the broadcasters anymore. They are all owned by a few conglomerates. You really need at least 30 or 40 players to have domestic competition.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

You said, "If I can't get the basic information from the Internet, too bad. Just a general outline is all I need…"

As we all know, everything you read hear or see on the internet is *TRUE*!!

Saying that Obama and Romney are both millionaires is like saying Ford and Ferrari are both cars! Obama's worth according to his tax returns is less than $18 million while Romney's estimated worth, *since has yet to disclose it publicly*, is ~$250 million! Not that I hold his wealth against him, I just would like to know what he is hiding!

From reading a number of these posts it is obvious that the main problem is not taxes, spening, jobs, or govenment agencies; it is a lack of education and the ability to absorb and/or understand facts when they are properly presented!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

ObamaCare Explodes Deficit!

Listen to the First minute and 15 seconds!

Now, you actually SEE & Hear Obama speaking about his ObamaCare Plan… That is a TRUE FACT!

Did you believe what he said when he said it on 9-9-09?

What has happened since then?

This is ONLY ONE of his serious blunders… He has blundered on EVERY thing he has attempted!

What do you think he will do in the Next 4 years if he is re-elected?

I, personally, don't think the odds are very good and I DO NOT want to take that chance!

Obama must be replaced…. Anyone, except Pelosi & Reid, could do a much better job!!

*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
State Dept Barred Customs Officials from Inspecting Muslim Brotherhood Delegation
*

Why are we inspecting anyone?

If we DO NOT search an organization that is suspect of Terrorist action, why search anyone at all?!
... it's THAT type of people we are looking to Inspect & Search BEFORE coming into our country!

*This action is part of THE Administration that is causing so many problems! It's a FACT… Not a made-up dream!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Forbes to Newsmax: An Obama Win Will Lead to New Recession

*

This is a Fact… Not a made-up dream…

I, personally, think it's a Depression… not a recession…


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Barack Obama, Professor of Unconstitutional Law#!

*

A very interesting factual discussion…


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

the truth is fellas that we can all sit here and bash this guy and that guy, talk about whos wrong whos right, whos white, whos black …. its money that runs this country, money that will never get out of the elitists hands. They can lobby, bribe, grease them all from the top to the bottom. Us laymen will never weild that kind of power, therefore, shy of a revolution things will remain the same. I honestly respect all the individuals in this thread but i cant stand the bickering .. cant you see this right vs left, r vs. d simply pits us against ourselves. Rise up and rally around a common cause fellas.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*chrisstef*

*shy of a revolution things will remain the same.*

I think you're right…

Everyone must get educated so they can SEE what is going on… and take action to help.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) selling $1.00 books on jihad and destruction of the West

*

Another scary thing that is happening…

... and, with so much help from our current Administration, looks like they will succeed!


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
GOP: Obama's 'Flexibility' Remark Shows He's a Flip-Flopper

*

So… what *WILL* he do if he's re-elected?


----------



## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

joe - i feel that its hard to educate people through propoganda (im not saying that you're simply posting propoganda materials). I just dont know what to believe out there any more, i think the majority of our news sources have an agenda of their own and cannot provide us with unbiased news. Theres always a spin one way or another, its sad.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Joe, you are correct on education. Unfortunately, most of the pulp that is promoted here does not fall under that category. Obviously the intent by either party is not to educate otherwise it would not be presented via the methods they are. If a person is not in agreement, they are insulted and considered either stupid or uneducated. In my life, I have met many whose views do not match my own. However, most whom I consider friends can lay out their rationale and while we disagree, both of us walk away with respect for each other and oftentimes with new food for thought that causes us to challenge and re-evaluate our beliefs.

I am often asked why I visit these threads if I find the bickering and name calling offensive. I look at them as a form of pulse in which I can gauge the health of the nation. In places like this, citizens get together and discuss their viewpoints on the policies and leaders of the day. The more widespread the irrationality of our discussions, the more concerned I get for the state of our country. I do not often agree with the leaders in our country, but I do not believe any of them walk through the doors of the White House to intentionally destroy the nation. I think most of the problems revolve around short term decision making without a clear vision on what long term catastrophes will occur based on that short sightedness.

What saddens me the most is the blind hatred that has risen to the surface. Media that promotes itself as "news" has turned into entertainment. The promotion of hate mongering and conspiracy theorists have made more than an excellent income. Instead of questioning the incomes of our leaders, maybe we should start questioning the incomes of those that make their living from hatred and whose incomes would suddenly declined if all of us could meet and have rational conversations, share ideas, and move in a direction based on that mutual understanding.

If racism didn't exist, who would have to change careers and find another means with which to earn a living? If facts were demanded before sensationalism, who would be forced to look for a more honest job? America rises and falls based on the qualities of its citizens. If you look at any national tragedy that we have encountered, the root cause has always been its citizens, the choices we make, the voices we tend to follow. I look at the hatred that we maintain and I have to ask how can anything good come of this, no matter who is in the White House. As long as we maintain this course, this country will not recover.

We have only existed for less than 300 years as a nation. Look at the ruins of Egypt, of Greece, of Rome. All these nations had their glory day, many of them that lasted for over a millennium, and they have met disastrous fates. Those that fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

David


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

This Presidential campaign (adding up what is spent by all of the candidates) will cost billions of dollars.

Who gets that money? The same people who give you the TV "news". I'd call that a serious conflict of interest. There's money in stirring the pot 24×7…


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

If you thought The Obama Deception was telling, this will really open your eyes. It goes all the way back to Jimmy Carter. The Conressional hearing testimony will make your head explode!!!! Why aren't these people IN JAIL???? Because they are the NWO insiders. They mention the CFTC chairwoman Brooksleigh Borne, she was a gal pal of Hillary Clinton. They were college classmates. Bill Clinton put her in that position. Those in charge of the Federal Reserve are UP TO THEIR NECKS in this SCAM on the American people.

Fall of the Republic>


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

+1 on David Craig's post #104


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

+2 on 104!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Gingrich to Newsmax... an interesting interview.

*

This is a real conversation with Newt Gingrich…

Anyone saying that this is Non-educational, Non-factual, and is against this, I DO NOT understand…
The only thing I can surmise is they really don't care what happens in the upcoming election and will be perfectly happy with any outcome. Maybe you think it's BS…. (I don't)

... that mindset will be the reason for our downfall…

Rome & other countries have fallen… there is nothing that says we CANNOT fall too… it is very possible for us to fall & fall very hard. I truly think we are on the brink of Falling… just like Rome, Greece, etc. I would like to think that I am trying to get the word out there that will get a few people on the band wagon to jump in and help STOPPING our Fall from happening.

Now, let's see… who, in Rome, thought there was nothing wrong and merely partied and played his fiddle… only to wake up TOO LATE to find his country GONE! That is History… Most people know about it… Most people know that the same thing can still happen… even today… The biggest problem, as I see it, is to convince enough other people that it IS in FACT happening while we are playing our Fiddles, and we if we don't wake up in time to do something about it, it will be TOO LATE.

Now, if you choose to ignore what I'm saying & presenting, I can only say that "I've tried."... and I hope the day does NOT come where I can say "I told you so!"... when it's too late.

It was brought up about the money it takes to advertise an election campaign… Yes it does… The Media (Corporations in the business of making money) will gladly sell air time to anyone that wants to pay for it… That is what they are there for. That's the way it right now. I do believe that the playing field should be leveled a little to prevent an election from "Being Bought" as the result of smothering the air waves, spending an enormous amount of money on election campaign Ads. ... but, that, unfortunately, is not the way it is… Therefore, we have to do our best to recognize pure BS from an honest attempt to inform the public… Not an easy thing to do… but, it can be done… and I am trying to do just that.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
John Conyers on Reading the Healthcare Bill

*

I found this FUNNY and educational… (from another thread)

We should have some Standards on how Bills are written, in plain English, and in a way that they can be read by ALL members of Congress before voting on it… and VOTING shall NOT happen until all of them HAVE READ & UNDERSTAND it! More & more, it looks like Bills are purposely made long and drawn out just so they CAN be ram rodded through without any REAL meaningful vote! Just the fact that everyone could NOT read & understand the bill by the time it was to be voted upon, should have been cause enough to NOT even VOTE for it… let alone PASS it! Also, I wonder how many "Under the Table" Deals were made just to buy votes… increasing our National Debt! (which should NOT be allowed).


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

+3 on 104


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you David, for post 104. I think you have a logical mind and it doesn't appear to be filled with political propaganda or ill will. I do think that your reasoning, and point may be lost on some though. 
I don't think that our country is in an unrecoverable abyss at this point. I think that we as a nation can overcome our shortcomings and build a better country. It will not happen with fear, or hate, it will happen when we learn again that we as a people are in this together and profits should not come in front of prosperity. It will happen when we let our leaders make choices with sound judgement and good science. We must embrace our future and deny those power who wish us to return to our past.


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## oskarman (Jan 28, 2012)

Joe,

i appreciate your passion and i share your concern for this great country, but if you think that Romney (or any other Republican) is any better than Obama (or any other Democrat) or vice versa, i got oceanfront property in Nebraska to sell you. Romney and Obama and all the rest of the politicians play one group off against the other and then while we're all distracted arguing with each other, the politicians (of both parties) all rob us blind. it's like Huey Long said many, many years ago….the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is one of them skins you from the neck down and the other skins you from the ankle up.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oskarman*

OK, you going to vote for Obama? Put your vote where your mouth is!

If that's really how you feel about it… Fine… I tried…

I truly feel that there is NO Democrat that I know of that could be a good President today.
Our President, the Administration, and Congress MUST change.

(and I am NOT saying that Romney is the one to do it! I really think Newt could do a better job of it.)

I agree we can recover from what is ahead of us… BUT, I also think that it's very critical that we Get Started in 2012 with the next main election… If we don't, I feel that we are at a very high risk that we go beyond the point of no-return during the next four years!

If you think I'm wrong an you think you're right (based on things you haven't mentioned here), go ahead & vote for Obama… find out the Hard way.

It will NOT be my fault you screwed up…


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
US sues to lower prices of e-book best-sellers
*

When I read this, I thought 
"The Government is suing a business because of having Prices TOO HIGH"!??

I'd like to know how they think they have a right to do that!

It's non of their fricken business!!

Why don't they spend a little time enforcing Border Control across our Southern Calif. & Arizona border!
... they choose to make a smoke screen… a diversionary tactic…??
Just another lame example of how our administration is really BAD & must go!


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## oskarman (Jan 28, 2012)

Joe,

did you actually read my post? please identify anything in my post that indicates or even suggests that i'm voting for or support Obama. i made it pretty clear that in my opinion ALL politicians are crooks, the only difference between them is the way in which they screw us over. unfortunately, your response to my post demonstrates my point as to one of the primary methods that politicians employ to maintain power and enrich themselves. you're so angry about a particular politician and/or political party that your ability to read and reason has been severely diminished, which is precisely what politicians want. they want you arguing with me so that neither one of us are paying attention when they all rob us blind.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sure, you didn't say Obama was your man…

So, why are you arguing?!

OH CRAP…

No sir… I am reasoning perfectly well… I know what Obama & His administration has done (for what has been made public) and what He is planning on doing… I see the writing on the wall… If you would really study, you would see it too.

I see it very clearly…

... sorry you don't…


----------



## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

I too agree with David. We are being played like a fiddle. The divisive tactics are deliberate. Keep the populace "off balance" so that their focus will be drawn away from the real issues. Pit Republican against Democrat, Conservative against Liberal, black against white. The media is up to their necks in this process. Where are the TRUE journalists Like Ed Morrow, Walter Cronkike, and we just lost the last, Mike Wallace? Now we're left with just a bunch of carnival barkers.

WE THE PEOPLE have the duty to take back our Republic from those who want to strip us of our sovereignty, and our rights under the Constitution. Be they foreign or domestic. But sitting on the sidelines won't get it done. Holding our elected representatives feet to the fire to obey their oath of office and remind them CONSTANTLY who it is they serve. No more free passes. This starts at the local level. How many have gone to town council meeting? Or a school board meeting? How many write or e-mail their legislators? The premise "Think globally, act locally" has merit. Don't fall for their silver tongued rhetoric. Investigate. Seek truth. It's out there, but it takes WORK. We have trusted these "servants of the people" far to long. It's time they found out who their REAL bosses are, US!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Under our Constitution?!

Obama doesn't care about our Constitution… That's part of the problem!
(if he can't use it, he figures out a way to go around it… or just does what he wants anyway!)

*
I write (e-mail) my legislators quite often... You can too...=
*
I hope that link works for you…


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## oskarman (Jan 28, 2012)

Joe,

i'm really sorry that you are either unwilling or unable to read and comprehend what i actually wrote and respond thereto. unfortunately, such is all too common these days. you apparently find more enjoyment in responding with screeds against non-existent strawmen arguments as opposed to engaging in thoughtful and nuanced discussion. that's too bad, but far be it from me to interfere with what (judging from your numerous posts) appears to be your primary mode of entertainment. enjoy!


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

Joe, go back and read what Oskar said. He's absolutely right. We are screwed no matter who is elected. They keep us fighting about petty bull******************** so no one notices. They all promise to do something for one group, and something else for another. Whoever convinces the most idiots to vote for them, gets to be the leaderfor a while. It doesn't really matter which one, they are all buddies, they just act like they hate each other. If they actually fixed anything, we wouldn't think we needed them anymore, and there goes the gravy train. It's better for all politicians if they can keep us fighting with each other.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

The left/right, black/white, this/that is all an illusion or diversion to keep us from seeing what is going on behind the curtain.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*RandyM68*

*We are screwed no matter who is elected. *

*Does that mean we're to crawl up and Take It without a fight?*

My point is very Simple:

*Obama and His administration MUST GO!* ... or we will get screwed WORSE! LOL


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

If Obama & Co get the boot as well as the "reformation" of the Senate with some new freshman senators with fiscal responsibility, we may be able to stem the tide. If this does go down the first step is to hit the "delete button" on every piece of legislation, executive order, and anything else Obama did. Then *AUDIT THE FEDERAL RESERVE* and if illegal activities are discovered, *JAIL ALL OF THOSE INVOLVED*. If I had the reigns I'd go after the Bilderbergs and brand them an "Economic Terrorist Organization". Disband the Council on Foreign Relations and the Tri Lateral Commission. They are agencies of a "Shadow Government".

In short, *ANYTHING* that has compromised Constitutional authority by presidents, lawmakers past and present must be dealt with. That includes repealling Dodd-Frank and reinstate Glass-Steagall. There is where camel's nose was allowed to go under the tent flap. Pull all that money back from the banks that *ROBBED* the American people. If they fail, let them file chapter 11 or be taken over by the FDIC.

We need those in positions of power to know that *"THE GIANT IS AWAKE, AND HE'S PISSED!"*


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

No, Joe, I'm going to squawk as loud as I can about the New World Order, and Obama's birth certificate. Several people have tried to tell you that you are not convincing anyone by saying the same thing over and over. I vote Republican, but you are even turning me off. I'm sure you're not converting any Democrats. Anyone with any sense knows that rich people have always run the world. The only candidates still in the running are the ones that they want. They will destroy anyone else who tries to run, and the winner will just be a figure head that does whatever they tell him. The president doesn't actually control anything, the rich do. You can squeal all you want about it not being fair, but you won't change anything. You'll just give yourself a stroke.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

Chicken!

*


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## MuseumQuality (Mar 27, 2012)

Joe, after reading your posts I cannot agree with you enough! Obama is obviously trying to run our country into the ground! However, I was left wondering "Why would he do this?" Then I started doing some more research, and *I discovered the truth*! It all makes sense! Why didn't he want to provide a birth certificate? Why is he trying to ruin our country? Because he is a reptilian overlord and he is trying to take their biggest opponent (USA) out of the picture! If you can look at that link and tell me you don't believe, then I can only say I tried to warn you. It is so obvious, I don't know how I didn't see it before. If you think this is a joke, don't blame me when you are bowing down to our reptilian overlords! I tried to tell you… And don't believe these naysayers, they are either sheeple or reptilians themselves.


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## ashahidan (Dec 1, 2009)

I think USA is wasting too much money making wars and and interfering in with other nations instead of 
looking deeper into the welfare of its citizens. There are millions of homeless people in the country. The amount of money spent on making and carrying out endless wars and forcing other nation to adopt your kind of democracy should have been spent on making life much easier for US citizens.
You will forever be in deficit…...I am happy to be in a country where I do not have to pay for health services . 
And I think many of you dislike Obama (and couldn't see anything good in him ) for the simple reason that you are so used to having presidents who are white .


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
What's Obama's Supreme Game?

*
... just a commentary…


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

@ ashahidan said "And I think many of you dislike Obama (and couldn't see anything good in him ) for the simple reason that you are so used to having presidents who are white."

A completely ridiculous statement.

I would love to have Alan Keyes, or Thomas Sowell or Allen West as my president….and oh my oh my, they are all black.

It is all about priniciple, not color…unless of course you think like a liberal.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*MuseumQuality*
PM sent… I think he's hiding something… and he's obviously very incompetent to be our President.

*ashahidan*:

The COLOR of skin has no bearing on it, with me!
Personally, I think *Herman Cain* (a black man) would make a Super GREAT president… but Romney (probably) took care of him! There are other black men, as RockTop mentioned, that could do a good job too!

I agree with you about the USA butting into the business of other countries! We should live and Let Live and leave them alone unless there is a DIRECT threat to our security.

I can see helping other countries when acts of God events like earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. happen.

If we helped our own people, like we help other countries, we would have a happier nation. 
(I also think that other nations would be happier too!)

We (USA) do not want to defend ourselves by protecting our borders… which, I feel, is very strange!

Right now, and in the past, if anyone was in dire need of medical attention, for the most part, they receive it pro-bono!

Medical care obtained by purchasing Medical Insurance does work in our country and such a choice, when I was younger, was the way I liked it. Unfortunately, the cost has shot up dramatically as the result malpractice suits being abused forcing premiums to be increased on the Doctors Malpractice Insurance premiums and excessive running of unneeded tests just to appear to be playing it safe (to avoid suits), etc. etc. being made. Before all of that abuse, our insurance premiums were at very comfortable - realistic levels. It should be Cleaned up to get it back to normal!
*... and we DO NOT need anything like ObamaCare to do it.*

*Now, as for current matters go…* I have watched and paid attention to what has been going on in our government. I am not happy with it. I do not want it for four more years!

*If you are happy with it and want four MORE years, which will be worse than the first four, by all means re-elect President Obama!*

If you think Obama is competent to be our President for four more years, *VOTE for him!*

If you don't know what is wrong with him, *I'm not going to tell you! That's your problem!*

*There… You HAPPY!

GO FOR IT!
*

... just don't cry on MY shoulder when the time comes for me to say *"I told you so!"*


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

US sues to lower prices of e-book best-sellers

When I read this, I thought 
"The Government is suing a business because of having Prices TOO HIGH"!??

I'd like to know how they think they have a right to do that!

It's non of their fricken business!!

I'm curious if you actually read that link? Because not only does it explain why they are suing (hint: not because prices are too high) but it also explains how it is their "fricken business". The problem is not the book prices but price fixing which speaks to the point made another poster about the lack of true competition. Are you opposed to competition? Opposed to free markets? This lawsuit is to protect free markets not dictate prices. The headline, which is probably all you read, is terribly misleading and speaks to another point that has been made about mass media and sensationalism. You've said several times that you've tried to show us the truth but this example calls into question if you are really trying or just seeking attention.


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## ashahidan (Dec 1, 2009)

Dear Rocky TopScott.

You are an exception. I hope all Americans should have a similar opinioni but then anybody can have his own 
opinion. 
My brother-in-law (a former judge and is an African American) ) in Ohio never thought that Obama could never be president.

Anyway there would never be a 100% perfect President .


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I do not personally know of any of my conservative friends that would hesitate to vote based on principle regardless of the color of the candidate.

Thomas Sowell is a brilliant man ….here is just one of his insightful quotes:

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."

*Sowell also said, "It is bad enough that so many people believe things without any evidence. What is worse is that some people have no conception of evidence and regard facts as just someone else's opinion."*

Somewhat ironic.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Since I live here in Silicon Valley the suit was a top story in our San Jose Mercury new. Apparently Apple convinced some suppliers to charge Amazon higher prices for ebooks which sounds a lot like price fixing and that is why the feds are involved.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

If you break down the theory behind every governmental system, most are quite sound on paper. The main reason why they fail, is they forget about human nature


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## BruceCM (Apr 3, 2012)

Someone once said that he who has the camera charisma and the best sound bites will win the elction and will be the least qualified to hold the office.

The liberal message has always been three pronged:
1. You are miserable
2. Someone else is responsible for your misery
3. The government will save you

Obama delivers this message repeatedly and with panash.

GW Bush gave us great fiscal policy but failed to even try to reduce governement spending…an unpardonable sin.

Romney has, at best, mediocre cameral charisma and politicing is not natural for him. What he has is business sucess and a proven ability to work with oposition to get results.

I'm independent. I don't care what the political part affiliation is. I care about results.

Romney currently seems the better choice.

BruceM


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

There is a phenomenon in America which has come about through Christianity and politics mixing. People actually believe that in order to be religious, they must embrace this theocratic leaning they've been force fed; that somehow America has gotten away from God, and it's those liberals fault.

The way I see it, not being involved in either politics or religion, is that liberals want to move forward, to fix problems with new ideas, whereas conservatives think the reason we have problems is because we left the old ways behind. This accounts for their fear of science and intellectualism; they distrust new ideas. If a man is ignorant, he is fearful because we tend to fear what we don't know. Unfortunately the world is full of unknowns, and we can't shun progress because of fear.

So perhaps if liberals slowed down with the progressive ideas and conservatives worked through the fear of new ideas, we might become one nation again, because the way we're going now is a road to another civil war.

Be skeptical of everything, and use critical thinking.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I would like to know what are these radical new ideas that liberals are pushing because if they slow down anymore, we'll soon be back in the early 1900's with separate water fountains and women having to ask permission to buy groceries. It really isn't fear of new ideas, it is the fears of an aging generation that seeks return to a mythical time when everything was right in the world (when they were children). The world hasn't gotten worse, it's just that people get older everyday and realize how screwed up the world is. Rather than face reality, they retreat to hear echos of their own fears and the rhetoric of politicians and political pundits who prey on those fears with promises of a return to the 'good 'ol days'. Deep down they know it isn't true and that makes them angry and bitter. The various social issues that get paraded up and down the news aren't going to save or ruin our country, but the divisiveness fueled by the right wing media, inattention to our infrastructure, inattention to our future energy needs, inattention to our environment, unnecessary warfare draining the tax coffers and distracting from real issues, bailing out private debts with public money (not new BTW, Andrew Jackson campaigned against the same thing), lack of job growth, all these will bring our country down.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Why is it ironic Wormil?

Is a record not evidence of a factual thing?


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Wormi, +1. I tried to say much the same in another thread but a bottle of gin got in my way.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
After WH meeting with Islamo-gangster

*

... yes… the current Administration is sick… and needs to be replaced…

IMHO!


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

Joe,

While I admire your passion, I think you really have no clue how well socialized medicine (and, for that matter, other socialized services) work in other countries.

I can speak from the experience of family members who lived in a country where there are no penalties for getting sick beside the sickness itself. My sister was successfully treated for cancer at one of the finest hospitals in the world, didn't lose her job (despite the toll of the treatment and lost days), didn't lose her savings and, as an added benefit, had access to other living-related benefits that made it easier to get to treatment, such as getting her apartment cleaned when she was too weak to do so, among other things. She was born in Sweden and moved to the US when she was 6. She went back as an adult and lived there for five years before coming back to the US (for personal reasons). Some 25 years later, the cancer returned. By way of contrast, her experience with our vaunted health care system left her broke (in debt actually) and in need of extraordinary support from her family.

The beauty of the Swedish system is that everyone is entitled to care. One of my sister's childhood playmates was Benny Anderson (founder and leader of the band ABBA). She received no less care than he would be entitled to despite the fact that she was not the multimillionaire that her childhood playmate became. Yes, Swedes pay a lot in taxes to support this system. But it is a choice they make willingly and even conservative Swedish politicians (such as one of our family friends who was mayor of his city) would never think of of abandoning the social programs as they understand how it improves lives for everyone. Swedes have a word for it: lagom which means 'enough' in the sense that everyone must have enough to live a decent life.

So, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I know from real experience that you are wrong about some things.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*bunkie:*

Are you familiar with the ObamaCare bill… how it works & how it will be paid for?

I don't think what you are describing is anywhere close to it… is it?


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

What is the income tax rate in Sweden bunkie?


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
Why Democrat vs. Republican is the Wrong Way to Look at the 2012 Election

*
Some interesting Food for Thought…


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

Joe,

No, I haven't read the bill. And, I do think there are serious issues with it.

However, I was not addressing the bill. I was referring to your comments about socialized medicine, in general. Specifically, the quoting of people who make blanket statements that are proveably false. I continue to believe that, given the right sort of approach, socialized medicine has many tangible advantages over our fragmented, unequal system and, again, I make the case that condemning it with claims that "it never works" is a debating tactic with absolutely no value.

Societies make choices. Swedish society has different priorities than those of the United States. But I will tell you this: your chances of hanging on to your wealth in the face of serious illness are much better in Sweden than they are here in the U.S. I have direct family experience with the benefits of socialized medicine. Do you?

With that, I've made the point I wanted to make and will say no more on the subject.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Anytime the governement passes a law that requires you to do something, over time you lose some of your freedoms.

It is government that should have limits placed on it, not it's citizens.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

bunkie et al:

*
Reagan Vs. Obama - Social Economics 101

*


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
A Tribute to Thomas Jefferson

Happy Birthday!
*

... sure wish he was still around… He is so missed…


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*
"the Obama Administration has issued a statement that it is getting E-Verify ready to handle a big expansion. "

*

... I wonder if there is going to be a huge Amnesty Play just ahead of the Election so they can vote for… guess who?!

... Without the approval of Congress?!

We shall see… * Looks like the writing is on the wall… IMHO*

If this is for REAL, it should have happened Years ago… Why did he wait so long?!

I wonder why the Republicans are blocking it? Very interesting!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The Ds want illegal votes and the Rs want cheap labor. Both are screwing you and us; U.S. ;-((


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Top…
*
Both are screwing you and us
*

Isn't "you" included in "us"? LOL

Thank you!


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

This is a Wood working site.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yep, there are 11 other forums for woodworking.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I just have a question for bunkie -
You mentioned the great care in Sweden, and how expensive it was here in the US 25 years later.

(1) After all the toils on the body from surgery and Chemo - - - how different is a person PHYSICALLY when 25 years later they have a relapse? Considering cost/level of care and outcomes…the 30 year old on Chemo is very different than the 55 year old relapse patient.

(2) You description of sweden's system for the ABBA member doesn't state whether EVERYONE gets TERRIFIC CARE, of if EVERYONE gets EQUALLY POOR/Rationed care after a 2 year wait. The concept that income/wealth is not a factor in quality of care doesn't really seperate the two possible realities.

Are the stories like these below all BS? Also anybody hear of the Canadian Jarvic heart? Latest british Aids treatment? Once it is a government system - I worry about where innovation will come from. We can complain about big Pharma, but they employ all those PHD's doing drug discovery. Most of the socialized systems buy and dispense the US discoveries… what does everyone do when research dries up? That is to me where the For profit comes in - - they use profits (only some of it I know) to do more research.

Personally I think we have an EXPENSIVE system - but that it allows the USA and France, to have similar life expectancies - even though we are a bunch of 300 pound slobs on rascal electric scooters….getting Tubby to live til age 86 is much harder than the French woman that walks to the market daily and rides their bikes.

So (3) is our system expensive because we need SO MUCH care? or because every procedure is really more expensive? Do 5 stitches or a broken arm actually COST MORE TO PROVIDE in the USA than Canada - - not the fact that the patient is paying.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

DrDirt +++++ HIP HIP Hooray! +++++ Good going!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Joe, That was a special annotation to make sure you knew you were included in us (U.S.) being screwed by the Rs ans well as the Ds ;-))


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

DrDirt,

As I said, I've said what I'm going to say on the subject. Especially when you make confusing arguments as in what does 25 years have to do with the cost of care? Or is "it's included in Sweden, in the US it can bankrupt you" so hard to understand? And why is "you don't have to be rich like Benny Anderson to get the care you need" an unfathomable concept? My sister didn't have to wait, so that's an empty argument as well. I can't speak for every hospital in Sweden, so I won't try. And finally, I can't speak for Canada, so why bring it up to me?

If you want to really argue (as opposed to make noise), you'll have to do better than that. Instead of making blanket statements based upon fear, I chose to share a real experience. But, again, I've said what I'm going to say. I posted my sister's experience to make a point. If you choose to ignore it, well, there's nothing I can say that will change it.

And, finally, I sincerely hope you never have to lose everything you have just because you get sick. No one should be treated that way in an advanced society.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

This is wood working guys.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

madts
What is it you don't get. This is a "non-shop" topic. It has nothing to do with woodworking. Why are you looking here rather than the wood working topics.
Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to read this? Or are you just trying to get noticed as the "white knight" of civility.
And you call me crazy? Look in the mirror.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Jim C,

You came down a little hard on a newbe.
He did not call you crazy and his appearance was not and never should be in question!

Unless there was some precedent for the strength of this post!!!!!!


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

oldnovice, I will have to stand up for Jim on this one. madts had dropped a number of comments on other forum topics that were slamming to Jim. I do not support aggressive response but have to believe madts should hold his own ground on this one. He did bring it.

David


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Why is it ironic Wormil?

Is a record not evidence of a factual thing?

The first irony is that you took his word for it, used only a quote to make a point.

Consider the 2nd irony a homework assignment, is his quote true?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Reagan Vs. Obama - Social Economics 101

*Illustrates the failure of critical thinking…* In your example, everyone passes. Now let's use the same idea except substitute capitalism…

The whole ABCDF grade system is totally ridiculous when applied to things like wealth or prosperity, since an F comprises 50 percent of all possible grades.

Say this class has 100 students so a total of 10000 points will be given.

If you follow the current wealth distribution in the us http://motherjones.com/politics/201...ica-chart-graph

1 student will have 3460 points
9 students will have 3850 points to share, so 427.7 points on average
90 students will have 2690 points to share, so 29.8 points on average

*If you have trouble with this, here is another breakdown:*

To get a more apt example, you need to limit the amount of possible points available to the entire class. We'll set the student number at 100 for simplicity and the limit at 7,000 points per test so that if it was evenly distributed among all 100 students everyone would get a C on each 100 point test. Let's assume that the distribution of all points follows the current U.S. distribution of income. Here's how we end up:

Top 20: 4,137 points, average grade: A+ (206 points out of 100)
Second 20: 1,323 points, average grade: D (66 points out of 100)
Third 20: 812 points, average grade: F (41 points out of 100)
Fourth 20: 497 points, average grade: F (25 points out of 100)
Bottom 20: 245 points, average grade: F (12 points out of 100)

3/5ths fail, 4/5ths in most colleges where a D is a failing grade. (Like my college)


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I will use liberal logic to respond Wormil. Since you do not believe what Mr. Sowell says (take his word for it) I can only assume you are a racist because he is black.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Dr.Dirt, nice video but the words are meaningless without context and they only described what they felt or time waited not the whole process. I waited 5 hours once to get stitches in a US ER, that's a long time gone. A local resident is currently mostly incapacitated because it took 12 hours for a local hospital to bother diagnosing his stroke, he went in with partial paralysis, but because the MRI took too long to get the results back, it took them more then 4 hours to actually schedule the MRI, they sent him home with extra strength tylenol and told him it was from a migraine. Canada's health care isn't as bad as that video makes it out to be, you want a scary one just spend one day at a local hospital here in the states.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Hold on derosa.

Those who would have the U.S. government play a larger role in healthcare like to point to Canada as an example the United States should follow. Their argument, in sum, is that healthcare there is of high quality, is readily available and, because of generous government subsidies, much cheaper. In fact, most Americans know little about the inner workings of the Canadian system other than the anecdotal evidence provided by both sides of the debate. A look at the hard data, however, suggests there is more support for the arguments put forward by the critics of the Canadian system than by those who see it as a model for the United States.

Working off data compiled by The Fraser Institute, a Canadian think tank, the GOP staff of the congressional Joint Economic Committee assembled this chart to show in visual terms how long Canadian patients have to wait to receive essential healthcare services:


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Bunkie,

You said, "And, finally, I sincerely hope you never have to lose everything you have just because you get sick. No one should be treated that way in an advanced society."

That's what it is all about, *advanced societies* make choices and if we are going to move *forward* we need to make this decision as a society. At one time we, the U.S., were the world leaders in nearly every aspect of modern societies around the world. We have lost that leadership …. and I don't mean just within the last 4 years.


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

Can't disagree with your statement oldnovice.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*wormi:*

Looks like you are NOT in favor of a fair way of grading?!

In order to have a fair way of grading, like on a curve, as determined by a simple scientific experiment, marbles being dropped into the middle of a maze of pins, (and you know how they are arranged!) various percentages will land in the middle & gradually spread out to the edges… Take each half and average them…
You will get a distribution of what should be A's, B's, etc.

Now, if you think everyone (in their minds) that deserves an "A", should GET an "A", but ends up with a score in the outer edge receiving an "F", I suggest that you move to a place where you will find it… OTHERWISE, live with it and acknowledge it's presence. This assuming that everyone was in the same Class receiving the exact amount of instruction.

That's the way it is… A logical, fair way of assigning grades for the various scores. LOL

So, where are you going to go to find Your definition of a fair way of doing it? LOL


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Reading the responses, I don't think everyone is quite understanding the point that Wormil was trying to make. While I understand differences of opinion I, for one, find it very frustrating when responses are an effort to muddy a statement, rather than challenge it.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Am I missing some marbles?

I thought that grading on a curve was done by statistical methods not empirical data!

Which means that there are as many "A" as "F" grades (2% each), as "B" as "D" (14% each) etc. And the majority, 68% would be "C" which would complete the shape Bell curve.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*

*I think *if you perform the experiment that I mentioned, you would get your *"Bell Shaped curve / Pattern".*..
... but, if you were *"missing some of your marbles"*, the experiment would not be very accurate. *LOL*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*From an email I recently received…*

There are actually two messages here. The first is very interesting, but the second is absolutely astounding-and explains a lot.

A recent "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization.

*Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis: *

U.S. 65%

England 46%

Canada 42%

*Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months: *

U.S. 93%

England 15%

Canada 43%

*Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months: *

U.S. 90%

England 15%

Canada 43%

*Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month: *

U.S. 77%

England 40%

Canada 43%

*Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people: *

U.S. 71

England 14

Canada 18

*Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in "excellent health": *

U.S. 12%

England 2%

Canada 6%

And now for the last statistic:

*National Health Insurance? *

U.S. NO

England YES

Canada YES

*Check this last set of statistics!!

The percentage of each past president's cabinet who had worked in the private business sector prior to their appointment to the cabinet. * You know what the private business sector is a real-life business, not a government job. Here are the percentages.

T. Roosevelt…................. 38%

Taft…............................... 40%

Wilson …........................ 52%

Harding…........................ 49%

Coolidge…...................... 48%

Hoover…......................... 42%

F. Roosevelt…................ 50%

Truman…........................ 50%

Eisenhower…............. .... 57%

Kennedy…...................... 30%

Johnson…....................... 47%

Nixon…........................... 53%

Ford…............................. 42%

Carter….......................... 32%

Reagan…........................ 56%

GH Bush…...................... 51%

Clinton …....................... 39%

GW Bush…..................... 55%

Obama…........................... 8%

*This helps to explain the incompetence of this administration: only 8% of them have ever worked in private business!

That's right! Only eight percent--the least, by far, of the last 19 presidents! And these people are trying to tell our big corporations how to run their business?

How can the president of a major nation and society, the one with the most successful economic system in world history, stand and talk about business when he's never worked for one? Or about jobs when he has never really had one? And when it's the same for 92% of his senior staff and closest advisers? They've spent most of their time in academia, government and/or non-profit jobs or as "community organizers." They should have been in an employment line. 
*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

I like those health care stats! However, there is *NOTHING* that precludes we cannot maintain this degree of health care under "Obama care", or whatever other name you want to call it. In fact, if everyone were to participate then the costs should be lower.

I would like to see the similar stats from Massachusetts where Romney's original version of "Obama care" is in use (after all, if I am not mistaking,"Obama care" was originally a Republican initiative).

If those stats in Massachusetts fall off the level of other countries, or decline from the U.S. averages, then I will have to agree that this health care plan should be revoked.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*
First of all, ObamaCare is probably no where close to what MA has…
It is an abomination… does more harm than good…. small (all) businesses STILL are NOT clear as to how much it will cost them! That's one of the major things that is STOPPING new businesses from starting… in fact, they are going OUT OF BUSINESS because of it! They do not want to be a part of it…

It is a BOONDOGGLE…

The health care problem should be handled in some other way… NOT with ObamaCare.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

I hate to burst your bubble but just a five minute survey of the ever trustworthy internet says that they are more same than different and the differences disappear as Obamacare ages (similar to what occurred in Mass and it is called Romneycare thanks to Tim Pawlenty who coined Obamacare).


Even in Mass, businesses with more than 11 employees *MUST* comply or face penalties.
In Mass, there is now 98% insurance coverage
I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone with facts.

Below are just three of the internet links I found. Believe, there are *many* more. There are even sites that are biased towards one or the other ….. *imagine that!*

Boston Globe
American Spectator
isellerfinance

But, if the Supreme Court strikes down Obamacare, this argument is immaterial !


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

Oldnovice, there you go again, obfuscating the discussion with facts.

The 8% figure for Obama's cabinet takes even less time to fact check. In fact, I did it in my head.


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

Does anyone want an entity that cannot even deliver our mail without going "in the red" running our healthcare system? I have said all along that healthcare managed by the government should be left up *TO THE STATES*, NOT the feds. Their bureaucracy is just plain OUT OF CONTROL. Deal with those that do not have healthcare insurance and leave the rest TF alone!!! Reform Medicaid, allow competition across state lines to purchase insurance, and TORTE REFORM!!!!! That last bit isn't even addressed in "Obamacare". Why? To many LAWYERS writing the laws.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

The USPS in an entity that is *NOT* supported by taxes it is self standing.
I found this out as in one of my former position for an automation company I worked very closely with the USPS to automate mail handling systems.


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## pcott (Jul 7, 2009)

Btw the Fraser institute is not a Canadian think tank, it is an extreme right wing Canadian think tank. A lot of Canadians pay it no mind whatsoever.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*

Watch Herman Cain LIVE right now...  (4-15-12 3:15 pm Pacific)

They will be on tomorrow, Monday 4-16-12, also when they Walk on the Capital in Washington DC.

*


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Herman Cain is so passé. Why would anybody want to watch him?


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

You can watch *Cain* if you are *able*! In my house I would have a *mutiny* on my hands because of his philandering!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, his program, apparently for today, is over…
They had Audio problems with the loudspeaker being used for the crowd…

*Oldnovice…* you missed him…* Did you like JFK?*


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm always puzzled about the heat the USPS gets. How much does UPS or Fedex charge to pick up a document at my house and deliver it three days later 3000 miles away at my brother's door? Until they can do it for under a buck I'm willing to subsidize the USPS a few dollars a year.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

The USPS, like any other government run operation, really doesn't care about "making a profit" or being efficient like the Private Sector must do… They do not have a Stimulus to cut costs, have reasonable Pension & Vacation policies, etc. It's probably the latter that is the main reason they have to keep increasing Postage Rates, to get more money for the Labor related costs!

This is another Can of Worms…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Biggest problem with USPS is the Rs wanting to destroy the biggest public employee union. They are trying by requiring billions to be put n trust to fund 75 years of employee benefits for employees that haven't even been born yet. Just one of a multitude of reasons I quit the [email protected]@rds and will probably never go back. It is highly unlikely they will re-civilize in my lifetime.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

The USPS is *NOT* government run! It is a *independent agency provided by our government and explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.*

If you don't believe me, check it out on Wikipedia!

The USPS does an outstanding job and I believe that most of us rely on them more than we do any other government agency or, for that matter, many private entities. Shudder the thought that they were like the DMV!

Although I may sound like a USPS employee, I have never been employed by the USPS! I just worked very closely on the automation initiatives about 20 years ago and I understand their operation and what they do to insure you get your mail (and not a bomb) or anything else harmful.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*
OK, THEY ARE A NOT A PRIVATELY OWNED COMPANY… NOT EVEN A CORPORATION!

Do they ever file an Income Tax return?

Do they produce a Profit & Loss and Balance Sheet for their BOOKS?

They are as close to being Government run as they can get! Split some more hairs!

*You didn't answer my question:
Did you like JFK??? <= = = = = = = = =*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, I have always liked the man and the presidents. He had some faults but *who* doesn't! I still remember it like it was yesterday when JFK was assassinated. I had just left my last class in junior college and was in my car on the way to work at the radio TV shop. Sitting in my car the radio was playing solemn organ music and I said to myself "what going on?" as I always listened to WLS and this is not their genre of music. It wasn't very long before the news broke in with the announcement that JFK had been shot.

The saddest things about that were the fact that he was dead and so was his dream for us and U.S.. I feel that most men, and probably women too, who aspire to be president have an image of this country and how they can make it better for every American.

It is truly a shame that this presidents was assassinated and others are politically assassinated before they can fulfill their dream.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Joe: Are you getting this from ALEC (Google it), because your numbers are completely bogus? ALEC makes up stuff to try to convince normal people of lies. You know the phrase " bull ******************** baffles brains". That's what ALEC is all about.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Yes Joe, you know the only place to get your info should be moveon.org

Ignore the trolls Joe, just flat out ignore them.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*who aspire to be president have an image of this country and how they can make it better for every American*

I do not beleive they all do. The last 30 years has destroyed the post WWII way of life we enjoyed, We are rapidly being put back into 19th century conditions. It is a political idealogy that has been pursued ;-(


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

TopamaxSurvivor,

There you go breaking my idealistic view of those who want to be president!

I guess I really would have to agree with you to some extent. After the Civil War there was a lot of incompetence from the presidents on down to congress. I think the first president following the CW that, IMO, had some vision of not only the U.S. but also the world was Wilson (even thought his efforts were too early for the world at that time).

But post WWII is, IMO, not our fault or for that matter the presidents who were in office. The world got a lot "smaller" and the rest of the world wanted want we had/have at that time. You must remember the first "made in Japan imports" and how crappy they were. Look at them today (even though they all all made in China or similar places) but their quality is *world quality*. Even today, what do people around the world want …. they want U.S. products even if they are not made here. From jeans to coke to cigarettes to Harley bikes, you name it they want it. Even in Iran jeans are worth their weight in oil.

IMO we need to understand that things are only going to change faster and if you don't believe me just wait a few months. Yes, months. It used to be decades, then years, now months.

Hans


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Oldnovice:*

*You said this about Herman Cain:*
You can watch Cain if you are able! In my house I would have a mutiny on my hands* because of his philandering!*

*I asked you if you like JFK… and you replied:*
Yes, I have always liked the man and the presidents. *He had some faults but who doesn't! *I still remember it like it was yesterday when JFK was assassinated. I had just left my last class in junior college and was in my car on the way to work at the radio TV shop. Sitting in my car the radio was playing solemn organ music and I said to myself "what going on?" as I always listened to WLS and this is not their genre of music. It wasn't very long before the news broke in with the announcement that JFK had been shot.

The saddest things about that were the fact that he was dead and so was his dream for us and U.S.. I feel that most men, and probably women too, who aspire to be president have an image of this country and how they can make it better for every American.

It is truly a shame that this presidents was assassinated and others are politically assassinated before they can fulfill their dream.

*And I say to you:*
Sir, JFK's history of womanizing, that was very well known before his election, didn't make any difference to you at that time did it?! Yet you make a big deal out of Herman Cain's "philandering" that would be dwarfed by what JFK did! I do agree that JFK was one of the BEST presidents we have ever had… He put his personal feelings aside and planned & tried to do what he thought was truly best for our Country… Something that is very hard to find in current times… *EXCEPT… Herman Cain is one of that type of people. * He truly cares about US and wants to help as much as he can! Most people that have been publicly assassinated by the Media & forced to suspend their campaigns, would have disappeared from public life and moved on to other things… *NOT Herman Cain*... He is STILL fighting to bring his message of Solutions to the People running for Congress and to America… *Why?
Because he is dedicated to do so and KNOWS how important it is at this time in our History.*

*oldnovice:*
Sounds you're retired from the USPS collecting a BIG FAT pension for hardly working for it… fitting your work time in and around your Vacation Time… which is very far out of step with the real working world.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Topamaxsurvivor,*

The requirement for the pensionn trust fund is a Congressional requirement of this agency. From Wikipedia:

The Role of Congress Of related significance is the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA), which obligates the USPS to prefund 75-years worth of future health care benefit payments to retirees within a ten-year time span - a requirement to which no other government organization is subject.

*Joe,*

If I "split enough hairs" could I get my all of my hair back? *LOL*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*madts:*

*Joe: Are you getting this from ALEC (Google it),*

At the beginning of that bunch of statistics I said
*"From an email I recently received…"*

*And that is TRUE… I did not get it from any other source at all!

I did NOT lie about it…*

If you disagree with what I have just said and If we were Face to Face, I would pay no attention to our age differences… and do what I felt I had to do… and if everything went well, you would not feel very good. LOL


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is the source of USPS current deficit. With any reasonable requirements, they would be profitable.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hans, In 1980, we were the world's creditor and manufacturer of quality products. Today were the world's debtor and importer of junk. It all started with the end of policies put in place to prevent another Great Depression. We now have the 2 Great Depression largely thanks to Reaganomics and Greenspan. If we had fair trade instead of free access to our markets, it would not be like this.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Joe,*

JFK may have been a womanizer/philanderer but in those days it was a lot harder to prove and "gossip" was rampant. I was too young for Eisenhowers first election (and brand new to the U.S.) but in school we obviuosly followed his second election as a class project.
But for the JFK election I was getting close to voting age so i followed his campaign very closely and never really heard a word about what we know now. And, it really doesn't matter now because he was a great president in spite of these faults. There was also the "Camelot aura" that seemed to be pervasive about JFK and his family, almost story book like!

That is why I said what I did in my previous post about JFK and hindsight is always 20/20!


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Topamaxsurvivor,*

You are correct. The congressional requirements on the USPS are *outrageous*.

One of the biggest issues is outsourcing and the fact that John McCain (and his pro-big business cohorts) added provisions for tax breaks for companies that outsource. This provision meant that a tax paying U.S. resident is now unemployed, is no longer paying an income tax, is probably collecting unemployment, probably cannot afford health care, may default on his house, and the company gets a tax break along with lower employment costs and no benifits to cover. *This makes a lot of nonsense!*

*IMO, that is where the dilemma we are in today started.* If you look at this logically, with a timeline, it makes sense.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

@Joe That's the way it is… A logical, fair way of assigning grades for the various scores. LOL

So, where are you going to go to find Your definition of a fair way of doing it? LOL

Are you arguing that we should redistribute wealth in the US according to a bell curve? Just so we're on the same page… you do understand that all three examples are using grades as a metaphor for wealth.

@ Rocky I will use liberal logic to respond Wormil. Since you do not believe what Mr. Sowell says (take his word for it) I can only assume you are a racist because he is black.

To me this means one of two things, either you did fact check and realized Sowell's first statement was wrong and won't admit it; or two, you were too lazy to fact check and proved the second quote by Sowell as correct.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I think Joe as some very good ideas. Starting tomorrow I going to start running my house hold budget just like the government does.

I'm going to spend, spend, spend and borrow all I possibly can. I'm going to get everything I always wanted. Just wait until you guys see my new shop and tools. I'm going to vacation at the most expensive places in the world(often). When I realize I'm have trouble paying my bills I going to get a printing press and that will keep me going for a while. When people wise up that my money is no good I'll put the burden on all of you and you kids to foot the bills.

All of government has plenty of blame for the mess you and I are in but the buck starts at the top and there is no way I'll be voting for our top con man. The top con man is living a life of luxury while others and hurting badly for reasons they didn't contribute to.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

Herman Cain was a chairman of the Federal Reserve in Kansas City. That indicates that he is influenced.

Herman Cain is also one of thirteen U.S. business members who belong to the powerful North American Competitive Council.The council is part of the Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP) that was established by the American, Canadian and Mexican government at the June 2006 Trilaterial meeting in Cancun, Mexico.

Did you here (and wonder) about the ex-judge commentator that recently got fired for asking basically what if the difference between the D's and R's is so nothing but something to entertain the masses while the real work continues unabated regardless of party in power ?

IMO Eisenhower and Kennedy were the last two true American Presidents. They both were the last ones that tried to warn what is really happening (big picture). And yes, one a Democrat and the other a Republican. So what ?


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

David

+100


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

Jefferson was referred to above. IMHO, if Thomas Jefferson and the other founders could somehow see from their graves the gigantic, bloated, debt-ridden, government that BOTH the Republicans and Democrats have given us they would absolutely roll over in their graves. At *1.3 TRILLION* annual deficits and *MANY TRILLIONS* more in unfunded liabilities staring us in the face the best either the Republicans or Democrats can muster is to kick the can down the road knowing that we stare complete financial disaster in our face unless we act to drastically reduce our debt. Running the 'printing presses' will not divert disaster - all it will do is devalue our fiat currency further and reap a whirlwind of inflation. Piling more debt on top of debt when one of our main problems is debt is a maniacal solution that surely must have been concocted in Hell itself and if we keep doing it we will surely have Hell to pay for it - especially future generations (our children and grandchildren).

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

As a result of Ross Perot NOT being elected and being ignored about the Giant Sucking Sound, we lost the Major part of our Manufacturing here at home.

That was the REAL start of our CURRENT problems.

Ross Perot was correct!

... and He can say *"I told you so!"*


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Joe,

You said That was the REAL start of our CURRENT problems.

And, if you saw my post above you will see that I am 100% in agreement with you. *Mark this on the calendar 'cause it doesn't happen very often!*

Outsourcing and the resulting consequences is the root of our employment problem!

I want to *amplify* that a little bit.

Outsourcing is like cutting our own throats but my real fear goes beyond the obvious (loss of jobs, taxes, underemployment cost etc.). When we transplant a factory we are essentially giving away hard earned/learned technology which can be and has been copied. We cannot recover that learning *and we are giving it away*. How far do you would they have gotten without our help.

Some of our technology is restricted and cannot be outsourced but recently there was a case where a subcontractor outsourced part of the night vision technology to China. Now China has night vision that is better than ours. I am sure there are other cases like this that we haven't heard about because they are embarrassing to the companies and the feds. That is what scares me and should scare you too!

In my last job I was asked to be on a committee to outsource some of our products to Malaysia. I and one of my colleagues declined to work on this effort. I was told, in a private meeting, that I had no choice since I knew the product processes. My colleague went on a four week vacation and I never did find out if he was told the same thing because there was a downturn in the market for these products and the effort was cancelled.

One bright point, a double edged one, is that the cost of fuel has caused some of the bigger items, i.e. furniture and the like to be partially pulled back to the U.S.. Furniture parts are now made overseas and shipped back for assembly in the states. I am sure that there are some other products that fall into this category too.

*I need to stop because this gets me too riled up!*


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*oldnovice:*

I saw no mention of Ross Perot…

Closing down factories and getting things done in foreign countries *was the start.*.. and it was a *Giant Sucking Sound… and it STILL SUCKS.* Ross Perot was correct! I knew he was correct at the time! It was very obvious to me… a dummy like me! Why didn't the rest of the Nation SEE IT?! What is their excuse now?!

... then to add to it, the Government in all of it's fricken Wisdom, made it harder for those businesses left behind to really DO ANY BUSINESS… like punishing them for NOT going foreign!

... Obama says he will remove regulations that are strangling businesses… BUT he just keeps ADDING MORE!

*Our current Administration, President, and congress MUST BE REPLACED ASAP!*


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## pcott (Jul 7, 2009)

And yet most of this outsourcing was started during republican presidencies, was it not? While republicans cheered? You are not making sense to me, as I am sure any republican president will do more of the same.
BTW in my opinion, anyone who believes Romney won't do more of the same is delusional. I fear for the middle class in America, and Canada.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I think we are all back at square one.

Taxation without representation…...the politicians in DC are not representing us at all…they are in a power and money grab all for themselves…...every last one of them.

They all think they are divine royalty and that all of us are their subjects.

Short of another revolution or an organized effort to secede, they will continue to walk all over us.

Sooner or later the citizens of this country will be at war with each other and it is a shame because We, the people, are not the problem and should not be the target, it should be the blood-suckers in DC.

If we don't band together and focus on removing the cancer that is the establishment in DC, the entire country will die. It is happening before our eyes.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Paul,*

*Amen and good night!*


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