# New/old vs old/new... or battle of the golds... WARNING



## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

OK, this post is entirely for amusement. If you do not have a sense of humor do not read it. I laughed the whole time. There may be words that trigger people. I would have no idea why, and that is not the intent.. but I just don't get some things… so… it's comedy, sarcasm, and amusement… 
Enjoy my "review"!









In one corner we have a much praised powermatic jointer. It was a friends dads. I got it, and decided to give it a tuneup… In the other corner, we have my grandpas 195? craftsman (king seeley) jointer. It came to my house in the mid 70's. It had seen little use before my place. I have used it almost 6 times in the 50 years I have been alive.

Powermatic: My buddies dad bought it when he was well into his 80's. He was scared of it, and it has seen way more waxing and cleaning than run time. After a move or two, unknown condition originally, it needed a tuneup. So, I adjusted the tables, touched up the knives, replaced the dry rotted belt. It is a 110 volt machine. It cuts good. Straight, level, square, etc. The many threads about table sag had me concerned… it just needed a turnup, adjustment, and make it right.

Craftsman… it was my grandpas. It has sentimental value. Nothing else. The knives had a big groove in them. My dad did that in the late 70's. Almost no use since. It had a dry rotted belt, cord, motor was wired for 110, and those knives dad always bitched about. 
So, I washed, painted, wired for 220, put on new power switch, replaced belt, and ordered a shelix head. (this is the first one they have made for this oild jointer model) I am from machinist world, so high speed steel blades belong in the 70's. Carbide is 2000 ad and newer. The paint was in excellent shape, but ugly. The table had slight surface rust… slight… not 1950 tractor rust.

So, since they both are running… let's compare a 75 year old machine to a 20 year old machine. It is funny..
I will evaluate the best based on extremely important characteristics of the machines…. and of course, I will declare a winner…

Value.. well, the powermatic is a 1200 dollar machine. No carbide head. the craftsman was probably 50 to 100 bucks. The shelix head added a couple of dollars.. paint, primer, belt, cleaning… Still well under the 1200 dollar mark. The craftsman is clearly less expensive. You will have to find your own dead grandpa to get one, though. Clearly the winner on value is the craftsman. I don't know how to appraise a dead old guy.

Looks… well, the powermatic has a nice base cabinet. It is a horrific color. Mustard is good for one thing… mustard… that's it. The craftsman could have easily taken this class… but it is.. guess what??? UGLY too. It is as if both fighters wantedd to be ugly. The gold is very close (although not quite as ugly) as the original gold. Sadly, in the looks department, there are no winners. Only losers.. all of us, that have to look at those obamanations… we all lose…


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Noise, vibration, overall smoothness of operation. 
Well, the powermatic has a standard 3 blade head. It is loud, it vibrates, the belt is older. It also has a dust collection area, I assume that does something. The craftsman is smooth, quiet, so quiet in fact, I forgot to turn it off while I was goofing around. Did not even know it was on… So, the winner is POWERMATIC. We are wood men… not some sophisticated wimp! I want noise, I want vibrations, I want chatter…I want to know I can take my fingers off in a split second. Category goes to POWERMATIC! (yes, a joke, the craftsman is unbelievable smooth)
Depth of cut/ stall/ etc….
Well, the 3 blade cutter is a gnarling, vibrating, loud, hot mess… so I snuk up on 1/4". It did not big… it was just a 2×4 stud. I did not hesitate wqith the craftsman… cranked it down and let it eat. Went through a knot with the craftsman…. that is where the craftsman lost again. Instead of pitching the knot at my head at 100 mmillion miles an hour, it cut right through it… loss craftsman…


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Lastly, weight, ease of use, overall quality, and what will still be running in 50 years. Well, the powermatic is on wheels. It is easier to roll away and put back in the corner. The fence is honestly way better on the PM… but the fence is about it. Dust collection… I'm not doing anything in my kitchen… I use it, blow the stuff out the door… but obviously the craftsman has nothing. 
Overall, with the shelix head, the craftsman beats the PM hands down, in every way.. but is anyone surprised? It has a new head… it is also 75 years old.. that means it was built by men, with pride, to last.
The pm… built by ?? with $$ in mind, to fail to be replaced in 10 years. It ain't the old pm.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

I guess really 65… if it was from mid 50's… I can't add. 
Stay tuned… I will compare grandpas hand plane to my pm100!


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I get it, and did think it was funny. Interesting as well….just don't compare anything to the Craftsman tools of today!


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## wildwoodbybrianjohns (Aug 22, 2019)

Highly amusing, and the funniest bit was- "obamanation!"


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

My first jointer was a craftsman with fixed outfeed table. I hated it . Used the machine up to the day the knives flew out and destroyed the head and gibs.
Adding a insert head to what I've called a boat anchor take some sand. Good Job.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

> You will have to find your own dead grandpa to get one, though


Nearly spit my coffee on the screen on this one. Great read…I find the Craftsman slightly less ugly. Something about the PM color just bugs me. Don't get me wrong I'd proudly have either in my shop but still the PM mustard yellow is just rough on the eyes to me.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

> My first jointer was a craftsman with fixed outfeed table. I hated it . Used the machine up to the day the knives flew out and destroyed the head and gibs.
> Adding a insert head to what I've called a boat anchor take some sand. Good Job.
> 
> - Aj2


That must have been an earlier version. This one has 3 leveling jacks. Cuts like a dream. Zero snipe. It is truly awesome.
This is the 103.20660. Part 82 is one of the jacks, the other two are right at the rear of the cutter. The shelix guy and the guy I ordered it from both told me it was non adjustable. I had to send them a pic of the manual and a photo.
Couldn't get manual… here are the jacks, or where they go.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

If I was reading correctly, many had issues with the pm table sagging. That might have been the longer tables… but it took some cleaning, gib adjustment, etc. The craftsman was quick. 
Pic of craftsman before I touched it. 









(oops, had started on the table)


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

OH… Safety… I forgot the safety category. One of the most important. 
Well, the PM has a guard very similar to the craftsman. The craftsman clearly shows it's character by the exposed belt, little cutterhead guard, and it only had a toggle switch on the motor originally… yes, mounted on the motor.. right next to the belt.. so 
CRAFTSMAN WINNER. …. I'm a man… I don't need all my fingers. Safety is for wimps and people that can't count to 10 without their fingers.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

> You will have to find your own dead grandpa to get one, though
> 
> Nearly spit my coffee on the screen on this one. Great read…I find the Craftsman slightly less ugly. Something about the PM color just bugs me. Don t get me wrong I d proudly have either in my shop but still the PM mustard yellow is just rough on the eyes to me.
> 
> - sansoo22


I chuckled and hoped no one would be offended. We all end up dead. He was a good man. He led a good life… he is still dead. One does not diminish the other. 
I also agree on slightly less ugly… but only slightly.. when I rebuild a machine (an overused term), I strip it to the bones, use epoxy automotive primer, then usually a single stage urethane paint. Regular automotive stuff. It will outlast me, easily. Pretty easy to spray.. at least I am getting better, and I don't have to work on it every time I want to use it. 
The pm100 I am working on here and there is the green color, thankfully. It already has got a table mill, slides or whatever milled, and quick primer of most parts. I think it will be show quality smooth, though.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

That's still a fixed outfeed table. I know about the adjustments under the table.
To me the jointer with the longest flattest table wins. Straight knives with a adjustable outfeed.
Powermatics are screamers they spin faster then the deltas. 
Your post reads like your having tons of fun. Thumbs up here.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I read through and just have one thing to say.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

Very well done, and entertaining….thanks for taking the time!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

Maybe I misunderstood fixed out feed table… I assumed that meant, not adjustable, cast in place, as is… by fixed, you mean it does not readily raise and lower via a crank, like the PM..
Hmmm.. See, I wasn't lying.. I am no woodworker. What purpose, or why would one want an adjustable outfeed? I just made outfeed in the same plane as infeed, and top of cutter same… that is zero. Lower infeed, cutter doesn't lower, cuts, board slides on outfeed…
When I saw the PM outfeed was on the big gib/ slide deal I thought that was idiotic… of course the table will sag… I am about to learn something.
Also, used 6 times in my 50 years might have been a lie.. it might have been less. It was in the basement of the house I was born, raised, bought and just recently sold since 74 or 75. I was born in 68. I have walked past it a time or two!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

> Very well done, and entertaining….thanks for taking the time!
> 
> - moke


Glad folks are enjoying it.
I am not on here to make enemies.. I have had health issues all m life… tried to kill me a couple times, wish it would have a couple more.. it happens… I just laugh at stuff. It is my way of minimizing the crappy… laugh… 
I have been around the trades, country guy, always dabbled here and there, but me wood is far more of a challenge than .0001", yes, ten thousandth of an inch in metal. To me, metal is easy, welding, fab, … easy…
Wood… whew!


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

I have his table saw.. .a craftsman 113.27520, which seems to be one of the old ones that are liked. Both went to my dad, now me. I have non kids, so you guys better keep an eye on the obits… The auction will have some nice stuff. 









I added a router table to the end, built the stand one day, primed it, decided I hated the solid top, open extension, solitd router table, so moved extension to left side, cut up stand, stand back together but shortened, and added the vega fence, wixey readout. 









I am just doing little stuff… or trying to do little stuff. In all honesty, I guess I am a fab guy. I like ripping apart the machines, making as good or better than new, then if I want to use it, there it is. 
Oh, didn't like vega fence brackets, wixey brackets tabbed on, etc. So, I made 4 new brackets for the front rail that hold rail, and readout, all closer together, more rigid.
I am a metal guy… HA


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> Maybe I misunderstood fixed out feed table… I assumed that meant, not adjustable, cast in place, as is… by fixed, you mean it does not readily raise and lower via a crank, like the PM..
> Hmmm.. See, I wasn t lying.. I am no woodworker. What purpose, or why would one want an adjustable outfeed? I just made outfeed in the same plane as infeed, and top of cutter same… that is zero. Lower infeed, cutter doesn t lower, cuts, board slides on outfeed…
> When I saw the PM outfeed was on the big gib/ slide deal I thought that was idiotic… of course the table will sag… I am about to learn something.
> Also, used 6 times in my 50 years might have been a lie.. it might have been less. It was in the basement of the house I was born, raised, bought and just recently sold since 74 or 75. I was born in 68. I have walked past it a time or two!
> ...


For your machine adjusting the outfeed is probably never going to be a issue. It's a takes a lot to wear down the carbide inserts and if you were to nick one badly you could just rotate it.
On a knife machine I set all the knives the same then adjust the outfeed for a flat cut. If I get a lot of nicks I might raise the outfeed a tiny bit. 
Good Luck be careful


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I bought a Craftsman King Seeley lathe in Powergold, circa 1957, the previous owner hated it. I took it apart and it was full of casting flash jamming up the works. And the tailstock either been assembled wrong from the factory or had been taken apart and assembled wrong. No wonder he hated it. I filed the ways, removed all the flash, put it together correctly, and it ran like a scalded dog. But I'll stick with modern lathes, much better built.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

> I bought a Craftsman King Seeley lathe in Powergold, circa 1957, the previous owner hated it. I took it apart and it was full of casting flash jamming up the works. And the tailstock either been assembled wrong from the factory or had been taken apart and assembled wrong. No wonder he hated it. I filed the ways, removed all the flash, put it together correctly, and it ran like a scalded dog. But I ll stick with modern lathes, much better built.
> 
> - Woodknack


Was "powergold" what they called their color in the day? I used a dry film lubricant on the gibs and threads on this jointer. The dry film lube is from race engine world. Similar to the spray can stuff, but 100 times better. Slicker, adheres better, etc. The table raises and lowers so smooth, it feels like it is worn out… you know what I mean? There is zero slop, it is only smooth, but it turns that easy. Unbelievable.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> I am a metal guy… HA
> 
> - wagspe208


and a very talented one judging from the frame work under that saw!


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## Underdog (Oct 29, 2012)

Thanks for the laugh.

Nearly guffawed at the appraisal quip. Didn't want to wake the wife, so kept it to a chuckle.

Plus one on the ugly Powermatic color. Why would anyone pick such an ugly color?

Dust collection! Safety! What concepts! Machinery manufacturers should consider them… Maybe. If PM were as proud of their dust collection as they are of their paint, maybe they'd revolutionize DC pickups.


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## sansoo22 (May 7, 2019)

Nice work on the stand for the table saw. I often envy you metal workers. Metal shop was one of my favorite classes some 20 yrs ago in high school. My boss is a metal guy and gave me a set of Purox torches, tips, gauges, lines, etc that his dad had owned. Some of the tips are still brand new. I just moved a few months ago so still working on shop setup but im planning a spot to keep an acetylene oxy cart.


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## wagspe208 (Jan 26, 2019)

For me, metal is easy. Well, easy now anyway. The mills, lathes, etc all read in .0001". If you mess up, weld it back up (depending). Welding, it is either right, to hot, to cold, etc., adjust. 
Wood… whew.. this grain, that grain, this stain, that poly… whole new ball game.


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