# CNC Routed Salt Box



## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

* Creating the Top*

I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.










Remember this is just a router. Almost all the things that the CNC can do may be done by hand routing, maybe with a template or a fancy router table. But for this project, I picked a couple of things that would be quite difficult without the machine control.

Background: In my mind, there are four types of routing that you can have the machine do.

*Profile*: Cutting on a line. You have it cut on a line, outside of the line, or inside of the line. Different bits can be used to get different effects. These would include a straight bit, a V-bit, and a rounded core box bit. You can also tell the machine how deep to go and whether to go flat horizontal or gradually change the height as it routes.

*Pocket*: Cutting out a pocket (or mortise). Typically here you select a closed drawing and tell the machine how deep to route it out. The two main bits here are the straight bit and the bowl cutting bit with its slightly curved sides. Typically the bit is plunged to a certain depth in the center of the pocket, and then moved about to complete that depth. Lower the depth and repeat.

*Raster*: Cutting out a "3D" design. Typically here the router is started at the upper left hand corner and then move straight to the right using a very small bit. The bit depth is constantly changed as it moves. This is repeated hundreds if not thousands of times until the design appears. It takes a long time, and you need a really nice machine to pull off a nice result.

*V-Carve*: Cutting with a V-bit while gracefully changing the height. This produces basically the same thing as Chip Carving by hand. The design must be carefully chosen to never allow the bit to route too deep. The way it works is the software sees a drawing object (called a closed vector) and will tell the machine to lower the V-bit into the center of it until the depth is such that the sides of the V touch the sides of the closed vector. Then it will instruct the machine to move and raise the bit to keep the V always touching the sides of the vector. A lot of signs are made this way as font characters are closed vectors.

I will cover Profile and Pocketing in another blog. I don't do Raster. And that leaves me with V-Carve for now.

Here is a picture of the objects presented to the software which creates the design. This should be recognizable to someone who has done Chip Carving. I started with a bunch of overlapping circles. I then trimmed the lines (called vectors) until I had what is shown. Next I used layers in the drawing editor to copy certain elements of the design to end up with 4 sets of closed vectors. I then selected all the little parts and stretched them into an oval. Also pictured is the profile of the design and where the drill hole goes.










And here is a video of it being cut. I edited it down to two minutes. It is worth a look, as I think this is the most magical part of a design. Maybe you should hit the mute button, as you probably are not wearing ear protection right now.






Take care,
Steve


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## tierraverde (Dec 1, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Great explanation Steve
Thanks


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Love the video! Thanks for sharing.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


I turn with cnc lathe, your home made machine cuts just as gracefully as any of our fadal mills.

An amazing achivment on so many levels for a home wood work shop. Great Video, I would

have liked to seen it all.


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## leanne (Oct 18, 2011)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


loved the video, look forward to more.


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## Northwest29 (Aug 1, 2011)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Now that's just too cool! Thanks for sharing the video.

Ron


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## blackcherry (Dec 7, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Now Steve this is right out not playing fair 15 yard infraction for not using your hand tools…lol Nice work on the video the CNC cuts like butter…BC


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## CartersWhittling (Jan 29, 2011)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the video.


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## fernandoindia (May 5, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Steve, that's just too cool! Thanks

THough it may it not be rocket science, it is very close to it. Great job


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Great video Steve.

Your CNC cuts through the wood like butter with excellent precision.

Thanks for the video.


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## MShort (Jan 15, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the video Steve… What a great toy (tool) to have !!!!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


OK Steve, it's been suggested several times but I think it's time to abbreviate your signature.

Steve, rocket surgeon …....................... has a certain je ne sais quoi and would look quite appropriate on your posts.
All those in favor say Aye.

Good video


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Brain Scientist… nah… I like Rocket Surgeon… awesome… meaning I am full of AWE… great video too


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


That Video is SO COOL!

Just awesome how it can do that!

Thank you for showing…

How did you define your 3D source?


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## GaryK (Jun 25, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Great looking video!

What kind of wood is that?


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone.

That V-Carve stuff always captivates me. Just when I think it screwed up, it fixes it. Like Steve Jobs said "It's magical". Of course when things go wrong, it can draw all over the place - with a very sharp and scary tool on expensive wood.

That video is 90% of what happens, and it is running at normal speed. Things get slower when I am hogging out a larger design. I guess that is a duh. Also I took the dust vacuum skirt off for the video.

It is Cherry wood. And there is some double sticky 3M tape underneath because I do not have any tabs. If I did not use the tape, the part would take off flying just after the final profile. And then the drill would just drill into the air. Don't ask me how I know.

Steve


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Nicely done Steve. "Ask me how I know…", you crack me up.  I was somewhat surprised to see a climb cut on the outside. The disection of the intermingled patterns makes it seem so simple. Put them all together and it becomes gorgeous. What V bit are you using and where did you get it?


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## BritBoxmaker (Feb 1, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Very impressive, Steve.

I particularly liked the part where the 'V' bit dived full into the leaf shape. A bit of a heart stopper the first time you see it with your work piece under it, I bet! Practise on a scrap is probably a must then.

Thanks for posting. One day, ah one day.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


I want a CNC machine so bad. How awesome is that??? thanks for sharing that!


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Rance - you techno wenie. The V-bit is a Whiteside 90 degree 1/2 inch carbide.

Here is a quote from Ger21 at CNCzone:

*I climb cut when cutting along the edges of solidwood and it's needed to prevent chipping or tearout. 
__
Gerry*

Here is another one:

*There is a rule of thumb for cutting materials. If it is man made Conventional cut (like-plywood-plastic-foam-MDF). If it is natural, climb cut. (like-solid wood-cherry-Walnut-Poplar). *

And it is the default for my CAM, but what do I know? This is not a hand held router…
Steve


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Very, Very Cool Steve!!


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## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Glad to see you put this blog together. 
Who would think you could be captivated by watching a router route?
Now I want one even more.
Thanks for sharing.
Scott


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## kiefer (Feb 5, 2011)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Reading your description of the design process and then watching the video is like a composer creating a new piece of music and then directing a orchestra to bring it to life for everyone,
Great blog and thank you very much for taking the time to put it together .

Kiefer


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


But you weren't cutting along the edge of the board. ;-)

I had to google my own quote to see what I actually said.

Generally, if there is wood on both sides of the bit, then conventional cutting will give you a cleaner cut. But lots of factors come into play. Grain direction and hardness of the wood are the biggest factors.

I disagree with that second quote (which wasn't mine). When cutting rabits (or similar cuts along an edge) then climb cutting is the way to go. In almost all other cases, conventional will be better.

One other thing I noticed. It looks like you had your Z zero set a little too low, or the angle of the bit is a little off from what it's supposed to be.
Or maybe this was your intent, as it gives a little different effect.
Sometimes it's preferable to leave a small flat area between the V carved areas.

Regardless, it came out really good. You need to utilize the CNC more often. Remember, it's just another tool.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve(& Gerry). I'm only a weenie sometimes. I deduce that some experimentation is always wise(as Martyn suggested).


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Hey guys,

Gerry, my biggest fear was that you would see me quoting you. Eh Gads, I got caught  You can google yourself? Now that is cool.

So that particular profile as well as pocket cuts should be conventional? I was under the impression that hardwoods should basically always be climb cut. And the results were pretty OK. I guess I will try the next one with conventional (counter clockwise outside, clockwise inside). Thanks.

Yes my Z was a little to low. You weren't supposed to notice. If you look at the picture of the top at the beginning of this post, it was set correct for that. Also the bevel circle cut has been changed to a spiral so I don't get the nick when the bit first lowers.

And Rance, thanks for the notice. There is so much to control, that I can use all the help I can get.

Steve


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## sedcokid (Jul 19, 2008)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Great project and tremendous video!! Steve that is one outstanding machine!!

Thanks for sharing


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Steve, I heard you are taking orders…..

I'll take two movie reel wheels. Thanks


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## ShopTinker (Oct 27, 2010)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


That is so awesome. I'm amazed at the delicate design. It's so cool that you built this machine.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


That was really fun to watch.
I was all the time thinking ohhh no, but then it danced off and did it perfect.
What bit is that, it runs the same smooth forward and backward?
Thanks,
Mads


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## Diggerjacks (Oct 22, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Hello Spalm

Love the video

Thanks a lot for sharing

A beautiful CNC oh sorry a fantastic Homemade CNC

You are the best


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## Ken90712 (Sep 2, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Steve you the man. Your mind is always coming up with such cool ideas. Do you let it ever sleep? LOL Very cool glad to see your doing good bud! I havent been on here as much being so busy I need to catch up on posts….


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## CNCJoe (Nov 8, 2011)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Awesome work, Steve.
I've followed your build logs over on CNC-Zone, and neat to see that you are still posting.
That CNC Chip Carved box is killer.

Any chance of getting the Vcarve file or the DXF from you to try myself?

Thanks,
Joe


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Hey Joe,
I posted the crv source files over at Vectric in their Gallery. I don't think we can post binary files here.

http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12440

Let me know if this does not work, and I can send them through email.

Steve


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


Great video, Steve! Heck, you don't need a lathe with that machine!! It sure makes it look easy!!


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## rapples (Jul 23, 2014)

SPalm said:


> * Creating the Top*
> 
> I will try to describe how I created the design for the Salt Box, and how I told my homemade CNC to cut it out. Here is a picture of the box, and the top. Let's start with the top.
> 
> ...


I'm looking for ideas for my first ShopBot class project at NextFab and saw this salt box. Would you be willing to share the CAD and/or cutting files?

Thanks in advance!

Richard


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

*New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*

Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.

I ordered some special foam tape from JoeWoodWorker that is intended to hold a vacuum. And since the shopping basket was already open, I threw in a bunch of brass hardware and tubing. Today I drilled a 2" long hole in the side of a HPDE plate and threaded it for a hose coupler. I then drilled a small hole on the top that intersected the long hole from the side. I put some of my new tape on top, and connected the vacuum pump. It worked pretty well, but leaked a little bit when trying to hold wood. So I put some sanding sealer on the blocks, let them dry, and I got much better results.

Here is the new vacuum clamp:









My first attempt at using it did not turn out so well. The foam held the bock down, but it was able to twist some. This really showed up in the routing. So I came up with a board that I could press up against the block. This helped keep the block from twisting quite a bit.

Here is a video about how things went bad. I sped up the video so it is only a minute long (you can only take so much of this). *Watch the silver part of the router bit just under the collet and before the red bit. It seems to grow in length as the routing gets going. The bit slipped.* So now I have a nice profile routed into one side of the HDPE, and two ruined cherry blocks.






Oh well,
Steve


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


OOoooops…

Looks like you stopped just at the right time!

Oh WELL… is right!

Back to the drawing board?

*Old Fashioned Clamp? "L" type clamp?*


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

You are almost there. I never really trusted vacuum hold downs.
how about small mchinist vise you can clamp down?

I must say that your system is cleaner visually.


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## JL7 (Apr 13, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hey Steve - thanks first for sharing that this could happen to you…...the vac clamp is tight but the pressure from that bit is likely just to much…..I know you well enough now, you will overcome…..please keep sharing.

Jeff


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


I guess it was not really the vacuum clamp that failed, but the router bit became loose and slid down, which then let the vacuum out. Ya fix one thing, and another comes up to bite. Arrgh.

Steve


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Who says you can just start a cnc and just walk off? Yeah right. All I gotta say is 1) Eeewwwwwww, and 2) glad nobody got hurt. Thanks for sharing Steve.


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## LoneTreeCreations (May 27, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Pretty cool. I've built a cam type clamp to hold blocks at the bottom. It works ok, but not great,
the cams are made of plastic and work their way loose with the vibration of my router table.
Routing the profile on a small box is a tricky one, I just end up using soft jaws in a vise to 
hold mine now. I make the jaws out of HDPE and I don't worry about the end mill hitting them
on the finish pass. That works the best for me. I'd like to try some vacuum veneering some time soon
with a plastic bag setup. Glad to see you dusted off your router table though. I'm working on
a sea salt box this weekend myself. Keep up the good work.


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## Snookie (Jul 30, 2011)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


This is all beyond me! I am just a simple did it myself girl!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


WOW!

I replayed it and stop-started per mouse click/click… the bit went through the bottom while it was on the left side… hen started to really start moving the blank when getting to right side.

I guess you will have to Route in timed sessions (time-outs) where you can do Safety checks on Tightening bits, etc. (??)


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve: That's really scarry to have a router bit move in the chuck.

Was it oil or just not tight enough. Today, I saw two vacumn hold downs pick up a 2" plank 12' long and 36" wide. Each vacuum pad was about a 12" circle with foam on the outside edge. It picked the board up and moved it from the sawmill to the holding cart. As easy as could be.

The vacuum area that you had should be able to hold 40-50 lbs with ease, however it might want to move as you experienced, requiring the block to keep the movement in check.

Here is a picture of Lee Jesberger holding a piece of wood with a small vacumn clamp.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


I use vacum on my lathe all the time at work, judging by the size of the fiture you were 
probably holding on by a good 500-1000 ft lbs, but it also looks like you had your block
halfway off the vacum plate. Better wach your Z's mister!!!! Look at the bright side, with that
big gouge in your vacum plate your next block of wood might hold better!!!...


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## BritBoxmaker (Feb 1, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Oops indeed. Better luck next time, Steve.


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve;

That could have gone a lot worse. I would walk away from that feeling quite lucky.

Thanks for keeping me incognito, Karson. I wouldn't have recognized me. I take it you were at Hearnes Hardwoods when you saw the vacuum hold downs. I'm sure you guys had great time.

Lee


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## kiefer (Feb 5, 2011)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve I am sure you know all of this
This problem of bits coming loose is generally caused by inserting the bit all the way into the chuck and not pulling it back out a 1/16 ", another problem I have run into is by not cleaning the rust protection off
the shaft on a new bit.
When I install a new bit I clean the chuck out , clean the bit and use a o ring to prevent bottoming out of the bit.
I would not blame the hold down in this case .
Hope the next box goes well !

Kiefer


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


I don't know why the bit came down. It is an old bit that I used to cut all the other boxes, so no grease stuff. I always insert a bit all the way and then pull it out a bit, so it was not that either. So I guess that I did not tighten the collet enough. Or the collet is bad, or the bit is bad (?).

But the vacuum plate worked. And of all times to get a loose bit. At least I filmed it 

Steve


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Wow I didn't see that. Should have read your comments more carefully.
Why it came loose is a good question. Maybe you would have better
results with a standard End Mill. Also look at reducing your chip load.
Reducing your depth of cut by 25%, reducing your feed rate by 25%
from that point you can work your way up. Well you probably already 
thought of all that, hope your next run is a success!!!


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## SASmith (Mar 22, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Bummer.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


That bit *did go through quite an exercise* which could have loosened it just enough to cause the problem.


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Maybe I am stressing the collet too much.

I have been pushing it pretty hard. I had problems in the past with the cherry burning if I went too slow. I just watched the video again, and the first part running at normal speed is really removing quite a bit of wood. My pocket was set to 1/3" deep, 60 ipm (an inch per second), and .2" cutting width. Using a Bosch 2-1/2 hp router set to about 20000 rpm.

It makes my head hurt thinking about all the variables I could change. I guess if I keep the feed rate up, but remove less per pass, it wouldn't stress the router as much and still would not burn the wood. Takes longer though. More time, less stress.

Steve


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## MagDaddy2 (Apr 24, 2008)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve, if not already mentioned, double stick tape (carpet tape). I use double stick tape on most projects for turning. Hold very well and comes off clean when done.
The last time I used a vacuume hold system I was setting up a CNC CMM. Precision is required but not extreme hold pressure. Here I also used, on the occasion, double stick tape but not for hold strength.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


The ipm is good maybe even a little slow at 60 ipm, but the depth of cut .3 is double the depth
that I would attempt with so little horsepower. I think you should be looking at more like a depth
of cut around .150 or .100.


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bob. This is the kind of expert info I really need. And here I thought I had soooo much horsepower 

The default in my CAM is 100 ipm and .125" cut and 40% step over for a 1/2 inch bit. So I think you are on to something. 100 ipm kind of scares me, but I guess I should try it. I will definitely reduce the depth of cut. And speed up the ipm a bit.

Thanks,
Steve


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Most the mill guys I know will run there strait runs 80-100 IPM on the strait,
but when they get to the corners they will slow down 60-80 to interpolate the
corner (say like on aluminum). Speeding up the RPM does not effect the chip
load but will cause chatter after you are going to fast. Increasing your feed
or depth of cut increases your chip load. If the cutting edge has build up 
your going to slow. If the cutting edge is chipped out or malformed your 
feeding to fast.


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## Blake (Oct 17, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Some pretty cool stuff you're doing lately.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


One suggestsion to help the "Twist" issue. Route a dado into your fixture and recess the gasket material.

This way it will still seal the vacuum, but the fixture will provide the mechanical bond. The twist is due to the gasket material flexing under load. Recessing it eliminates that part.

Every slipped bit I have experienced was due to a bad or dirty collet. They tend to glaze over at the end of their life-cycle and they lose strength from the heat cycles. Your bit might be getting too hot due to improper chip loading. At the end of a run, the bit should be warm to touch, but not uncomfortably hot.


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Thanks again everyone.

DS: I have been thinking about the dadoing the foam to lower it a bit. I guess I need to find the sweet spot depth where the foam works but does not get in the way. I also want to be able to move the foam around to match the size of the workpiece. I have a couple hard rubber sticky feet that are thinner than the foam that I am going to try first and scatter them about.

About the collet. That was my first thought too. I have another Bosch router that I can steal the collet from, and I will certainly do that. And not drive the bit so deep.

Steve


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve, I would think about how you want to use your fixture and create "zones" that can be covered when not in use. These extra zones would give you an expandable work area when needed.

I always kept what I called a "2 by 2" fixture handy that I would place on top of my nested spoil board for point to point operations. It was gasketed to accomodate different lengths of solid lumber for milling fluted columns and the like. I kept 1/4" melamine handy to cover the unused zones of this fixture. (2 X 2 referred to the fixtures' zero point referenced from the machine zero point)

Referencing the tooling from the top of the material instead of the bottom will eliminate the depth issues you're having with the salt box lids. Just be sure to "touch off" the tool to the top of each different board before running your code. (All Z-axis points will be negative numbers using this method, so be sure your controller can deal with that.)

Also, you can use high-density weatherstripping available from your local home store rather than any more "specialized" gasket material. It works just fine and costs a lot less. The dado helps it keep shape and prevents any blow-outs from the vacuum pressure.

I keep thinking that someday I will build my own homebrew cnc… I've determined it will be a 4-axis version so I can carve on turnings and such in true 3D. I can always dream. Kudos for taking the plunge and building your own.


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## Phil277 (Jan 15, 2012)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve,

even though you had a problem with your vacuum I know it to be a viable way to hold material in place for CNC cutting. I don't know this from experience only from reading about it on other forums.
I am hoping that you will share some information on the vacuum hold down system you built. What type of pump did you use, what size and type hose etc.? By etc. I mean what are the other components of the system that I don't know enough to ask about.

Thanks in advance,

Phil


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hey Phil,
The redesigned fixture works a charm:
http://lumberjocks.com/SPalm/blog/26580

The pump system I use was with a pump that I found on Craigslist and added a kit from JoeWoodworker.com

This allows control over the pump and monitoring its pressure. I did a multi-part blog series about it. It starts here:
http://lumberjocks.com/SPalm/blog/12484

Let me know if you want me to explain more.
Steve


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve: I was wondering if you use the Vacuum Pressure switch to shut off the pump.

I've heard that if you are using vacuum clamping the pump should not turn off because the amount of time that it takes to start the pump and get back to clamping pressure might allow the piece to move.

I made a switch that turns on and off a socket. One if the socket it hooked up to the vacuum pressure switch, the other one is full time and is not switched. I just broke the contacts that were on the side of the 110 socket.

The switch is used to turn off the power to the socket. That way I don't need to unplug my pump or the cord.

I just move the cord for the pump from the switched plug to the full time plug.


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Hey Karson, that sounds nice. Gotta think about that.

What I have now is two manual valves and some T's mounted on a little board. This allows me to shut off the main and then open a bleeder valve to relieve pressure. So I can keep the pump running and primed.

Steve


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Steve: This is what I've got. I bought some of the parts from JoeWoodworker. The Mac valve, and filter was a couple of the items I got.










To the left is the hose to the Vacuum Pump then the filter and then the Mac val;ve Behind the Mac valve is a container of regular air. When the vacuum pump turns off the mac valve lets regular air into that container and it blocks the vacuum that is on the other side of the valve. The purpose of that is to allow the pump to get running without having to start up with a vacuum already at the pump.

Leaving the Mac valve is my storage tanks, vacuum gauge, vacuum switch. valve to shut off the hose to the vacuum line to the bag. When I start up I turn off the valve turn on the pump and take all of the air out of the two vacuum storage tubes. After I close the bag, I flip the switch and give a good start to getting the bag enpty of air. right now the pump shuts off at around -25 lbs. Since I'm at sea level (+30') I usually have fairly high outside air pressure.

I've found that if a low pressure zone is over the home then the vacuum pump will not shut off and so I've reduced the switch to allow it to shut down. I've had to do that a couple of times but now it seems to have settled in to a normal running cycle.

My switch.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


I bought my Vacuum Switch from Surplus Center However the only ones that they have now is a 3-4" vacuum switch. Not enough for veneer press.


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## brussel (Jun 27, 2015)

SPalm said:


> *New Vacuum Clamp & Ooops*
> 
> Ever have one of those days, where you take one step forward and two steps back? I finally get a day off from work and proceed to walk backwards.
> 
> ...


Awesome work!


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

*Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*

The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.

After thinking about this (and getting suggestions), I changed the way it works. The new concept is to pull the work piece all the way to the flat of the HDPE clamp plate which will supply a flat, level and strong grip. I added dados that are just a bit shallower than the foam is thick. I also drilled a two inch 'well' for the vacuum to grab onto the wood. Yes, she sucks now. Thank you very much.










I still have to seal the bottom of the wooden work piece. I just used sanding sealer which dries pretty fast. With it I can pull 27 inches of Hg and my pump shuts off (I have a vacuum gauge). Without sealing the work piece the best I could pull was 18 inches, the pump never shut off, and I could twist the wood. So I will seal the wood first. But I can deal with this.

So to do a little math, 27 inches of Hg is the same as 13.25 psi of pressure. My small foam outline is 2.5" x 3" = 7.5 square inches. So 13.25 * 7.5 equals 100 pounds of pressure. I plan to add extra dados to be able to increase the total area when using larger work pieces. The foam is able to be reused and moved from dado to dado.

I remember now why I stopped using this CNC. It takes so much time to get everything right. I keep thinking I am close, but maybe this time….
Steve


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## blackcherry (Dec 7, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Set-up set-up set up when will it ever end, it time consuming to say the least Steve. The older I get the more impatient I get and it take more money to get to the end product. But it what make the whole thing worth while in this thing of ours / woodworking…lol best of luck hope this is the answer to your CNC set up delays…BC


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Your actual vacuum area used to calculate holding force would really just be the round pocket area, as there's no vacuum where the wood makes contact with the plastic. At least in theory, there isn't. ;-)


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## LeeJ (Jul 4, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

As always, very impressive. It's amazing that simply sealing the block would increase the vacuum that much.

I had a few Lumberjocks at a picnic a few years back. I was demonstrating the vacuum clamping system I use on my work bench. I was using a piece of ultra lite M.D.F., and attempting to clamp it to the edge of the work bench. Something I do fairly often when edge banding a panel. The piece kept falling on the floor.

I couldn't figure out what the problem was. A few days later it occured to me… it was the ultra lite M.D.F. permiting the vacuum to pull air right thru it. Just not dense enough. A hardwood, or even plywood panel would hold tight enough to drag the bench around.

Every little detail…

For a guy who isn't a rocket surgeon, you do very well.

Lee


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Steve,

Looking good, I added to pictures of the vacum plate I use frequently. It is 13" diameter
the face grooves are about .08 deep when the plate is freshly resurfaced and regrooved. 
I use plastic tubing as a seal, the tubing is held togeather with scotch tape (high tech).
The plastic hub in the center only acts as a centering pin and must be tight enough for
no vacum to leak, about .001 under size to the drilled hole in the center of the work media.
All the vacum pumps we use at work run constantly as the parts are held in place. I don't
think I'd ever want mine to shut off when my work is spinning at 2000 rpm.


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## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone.

Hey Gerry, that has been the question of the day around here. That nasty theory stuff. I too was calculating the clamping pressure by the size of the 2" hole, but I wasn't sure. So I talked to my son who is a mechanical engineer and trained in all this stuff. He said very firmly that it is indeed the size of the foam box.

He said if it was the size of the hole, then you don't need the foam. But if there was is no foam, it doesn't work. The smooth plastic to wood bond will leak until it hits the foam. Even if you get a perfect bond between the wood and plastic, the instant you try to displace the workpiece, the vacuum will leak to the size of the foam box and grab it back down. And according to him, vacuum travels pretty fast.

But what do I know? I plan to add a finger tracks to the pocket for the vacuum to travel around easier.

Steve


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## LoneTreeCreations (May 27, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


CNC is all about the setup. A good setup makes for good parts. I sometimes setup
a job on a HAAS machine at work with 20 tools. Takes hours to setup everything
to maybe machine for a couple minutes to make a one off part. But it's a really
nice one off part. I like the concept, but for me I'd rather clamp the bottom in
a vise at about .300" deep and sacrifice a little of the wood by machining the 
back off. That's how it's done in metal, that's how I do it in wood. Fast and easy baby!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Hey Steve,

I've been sitting here thinking a little about what you're doing… then, I thought of something! REALLY! LOL

Sometime ago, my wife almost had an accident while leaning too far forward on a stool when the front legs slid backwards… and she almost went to the floor…

I got some liquid rubber to dip the tips of the front legs in… to stop it from slipping…

Well, I'm wondering if it would work on your table to increase the vacuum pressure!

I see the table flat (no dados… just the Well)... with of this stuff poured into the middle & evenly spread over all of it… I don't know how many coats it would take… maybe 3 or so…

What do you think?


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve. I was looking at all that setup and wondering if you could use steel hold downs like we used in a milling machine vise. I have a pair I made that are just like the Starret brand and the hold good. They are abou1/4" thick x 3/4" x 6" long they have an angle along the back and then a slight angle on the front edge that is tapered real thin. When you clamp them in a vice they put a tremendous amount of pressure to pull the part down to the parallels in the vice. I thought that might work on the CNC table if you had a pressure devise from the side. I would use mine in the shaper on a 6×6 block of steel and shaving off 1/4" cuts.

That vacuum table looks like it will work pretty good and not mark the part at all!
.................Jim


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## JL7 (Apr 13, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Hey Steve - This is really quite clever, and the sanding sealer trick is interesting - I will have to remember that little tip….

My crude little vac clamp "sucks", but you've actually figured out exactly how much yours sucks….!

Looking forward to seeing the box.

Jeff


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Steve: A great modification. Nice job.


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


It looks like a professional setup Steve.


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## mafe (Dec 10, 2009)

SPalm said:


> *Redesigned Vacuum Clamp*
> 
> The vacuum clamp is now working like a charm. I also tried a new router collet and I was able to route a box with no problems.
> 
> ...


Steve you might not be a I'm no rocket surgeon, but a vacum surgeon instead…
That is so cool, I would love to play with a tool like that, I cant even stop to think of the new ways I could work.
Best thoughts,
Mads


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