# Dries too fast



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

What was the humidity like? Do you think that may have played a role in it drying so fast?


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## GR8HUNTER (Jun 13, 2016)

wondering if you would use a retarder if that would work :<)))))


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## duckmilk (Oct 10, 2014)

Would it be possible to spray it or would that create more problems?


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## EarlS (Dec 21, 2011)

Duck - according to the instructions it can be sprayed though I wonder if it would dry even faster since the HVLP sprayer air is hot.

Tony - I thought about getting something to slow the cure time down but I would like to think they considered the drying time when the formula was developed.

Nathan - it was 65 deg in my shop. It shouldn't have dried so fast. My recollection of the MinWax version was that it was slower drying but it really raised the grain even though I used sealer which this did not do. I also recall trying the General Finishes version and not liking it because it raised the grain quite a lot as well as taking a lot more coats to build up a finish.

I'm going to stick with my Arm-R-Seal and Seal-A-Cell. I'm much more in favor of oil based finishes than water based ones.


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

Re the use of sealers, here's an interesting article I got yesterday that sheds light on them. Flexner is a credible source, and I follow his advice religiously.

The only thing I use is shellac to isolate layers of stains/finish.

On the subject of shellac. I recently picked up a small can of Zinnzer orange shellac at Roclkers. When I opened it, it was very cloudy and there was a dark brown residue around the edge of the rim, plus a gell material. There was no date on the can. Read the instructions , which said not to use if more than 3 years past the date stamped. OK, where's the date?

Borrowed a quart can from a neighbor and it was the same, no date.

Zinnzer is now owned by Rustoleum. I called the help line and the lady swore there were dates and implied that I was just too dumb to find them. Asked me to email photos of tops and bottoms, which I did. She immediately offered a refund.

I explained that I spent my life in manufacturing, and that the ability to trace a product is absolutely critical - especially if the company is sued. suggested that somebody's head shoud roll and that their product stewardship people get involved. Told her that they should be able to track a can to a a production line, to the exact minute it was canned, then to a retained sample in their archive, , and then track every component back to a vendor, who could track their production and retained samples. Told her I had done this many times in defense of suits and that it is critical in winning or losing.

I think I scared her, which was my intent. That is inexcusable. Sorry for the rant…....


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Sounds like Rustoleum screwed up. Both of the cans I have purchased have a date code printed on the lid. Of course that does you no good if you don't know how to decode it. It's not hard if you know the code but why use a code when the label says not to use beyond a certain time frame.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Sorry to read about about your product challenge.

Haven't seen or used this stuff. May have to grab a can for some testing?

1) Brush marks:
Have NEVER seen a WB finish applied by brush straight from can that could be touched up 'while wet', without leaving brush marks. WB finishes cross link via oxygen exposure, and create films just like oil based varnish, only faster. IME - Need to thin WB finishes, and/or spray for best results. 
Varathane floor finishes have longest 'open' time I have seen, where you can touch up a spot. But only get a couple extra minutes. You can not finish a project and then go back and touch up without leaving marks, like oil based finish allows. Most of time it is best to leave runs alone and remove with NIB file and buff out when dry.

The low average 5-20% humidity in my unconditioned Arizona shop makes any quick drying finish a challenge. Need to use all kinds of delay dry/cure tricks for finishing. Most WB mfg sell a retarder that is 20-40% polypropylene glycol and water. Even when applying WB on 70° & 30% RH winter day, need to use retarder and thin it down. WB mfg recommend using water as thinner. I find 50/50 Isopropyl alcohol and water is better thinner in warm weather, as evaporation rate for alcohol 1/2 that of water.

2) Shellac as sealer:
While shellac is universal finish, and works as barrier on top of stain/dye; it is not recommended by mfg under WB finishes designed to pass KCMA requirements. Shellac will dissolve in presence of alcohol. All finish films are permeable, and if alcohol gets underneath the top coat, shellac will discolor and/or lose adhesion (leaving permanent white glass rings). Mfg recommend and sell vinyl sealers to replace shellac as they won't dissolve due alcohol; and these sealers are required for meeting KCMA tests. The latest versions are really easy to sand, and make OK clear grain filler too; just wish they were as cheap as shellac.

3) Armor grade WB coating technology:
Several overseas mfg have released tough armor grade WB coatings recently. Armor grade wood coatings have been available in EU for ~5 years now. Renner was one of the first to introduce tough wood coatings. 
These new armor tough coatings are PITA to sand .

The toughness is achieved with unique mix of flexibility and surface hardness thanks to new resins, AND hard clear fillers. Many coatings are using aluminum oxide (think garnet sandpaper) as filler to make then tougher. Need to use hardest abrasives, and usually drop one grit size from normal to break resinous surface open for easier sanding.as they sand like concrete.

These new resins and fillers are same as those used on WB automotive clear coats, which might help you understand how tough they need to be? Generally once these clear coatings cure/dry (24-72 hrs); need to use silicon carbide or ceramic abrasives and/or wet sanding to remove runs/drips; as they laugh at normal sand paper (even the popular 'gold' grades).

Welcome to latest high tech polymer science in wood coatings, created by need to be environmentally friendly!

Best Luck.


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

Oops, left off the link to Flexner's article

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/flexner-on-finishing-woodworking-blogs/flexner-on-finishing-sealers-what-are-they/?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=105914024&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9KxsQBv25ocXKpKjKbXIUuroA_sGi7udbZ4k-GiBkF1kS9Q1mM3a7YzSnHXB2H2g28mYVAd4x-U_RdRXfuhPLGGHn3ITK4IRvOLvGG7F-SusNUoa8&utm_content=105839944&utm_source=hs_email



> Re the use of sealers, here s an interesting article I got yesterday that sheds light on them. Flexner is a credible source, and I follow his advice religiously.
> 
> The only thing I use is shellac to isolate layers of stains/finish.
> 
> ...


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

When I built my wife's new kitchen cabinets I used Watco Natural Danish oil to bring out the grain of the red oak. I contacted Charles Neil and on his recommendation I sprayed a 1lb cut of shellac prior to spraying a WB semigloss finish.
After the first coat I was really worried there would the need for a lot of touch up sanding. The finish had a ripple look to it. The next morning it was smooth as glass.

I bought several color test packs of shellac flakes from the Shellac Shack. I mixed my own Shellac and went to town.
From what I understand Zinnzer shellac is a 3lb cut and has a shelf life of a 3 years. I mix only what I need for a job 
and avoid the waste.


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