# Winky-Lift Router Lift by Winky's Woodworking LLC



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Looks good… Yes, I think you can Review your own product…
... I do think that you owe LumberJocks something for allowing you to advertise your product… Just my opinion…
... That's between you and LumberJocks…

You have done a very nice job making the Lift…

Thank you for sharing…

Have a good one!


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

You might be right Joe. Hopefully if this is the case they simply inform me )


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## NormG (Mar 5, 2010)

Great device, hope it proves fruitful for all


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Advertising. Belongs in trade and swap, not reviews, IMO.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Interesting device- Here are my "observations"

The attachment clamps for the motor. It is foreseeable that the ends of the band "protrude" into the area of where a person uses his hands to change bits, thereby causing an injury. (An Ouchy! or law suit)

Router plate- I see a hole in the table top, this I assume is for the router bit to protrude. If so, when lifting and changing bits, is the hole centered to the bit, after lowering the top repeatedly?

Insert rings- All that I see, is a "one size" hole in the table top. Most router lifts have a variation of insert ring diameters, to accommodate the different size router bits. Example, you start with a .25" straight bit then you switch to a large raised panel bit- One size does not fit all.

Chain drive concerns- Yes from the videos, it moves like a Swiss watch. I would like to see it demonstrated with "saw dust" that can easily drop and deposit on the chain, causing resistance in the motion or "clogging.

Router fence- I see that you have a simple lumber fence with dust collection. How can this design secure a fence system, such as Incra's, to the table top and "repeatedly" be moved securely without becoming dislodged? 









Again, an interesting device. As they say on "Shark Tank" - I'm out


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Rick, great idea but I don't see Trades and Swaps???


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Desert_Woodworker,

Thanks for your input. It's good to hear, good or bad.

Let me address these one at a time. First, the chain drive. Admittedly wood chips could clog the chain but in never seems to happen. I haven't used this particular router table much yet but I did build another one with a similar design and it has never a problem (see my projects). In fact, the chain drive is much less prone to problem than the Exacta lift I used to have. It had a timing belt drive that clogged frequently, which is in fact why I went with the chain drive. Dust doesn't seem to clog a chain drive (maybe the chip size is small enough?). The other table with the same drive system has been in used over a year now (probably hundreds of hours!) with no sign of sawdust in the chain, it simply is not a problem. With the timing belt very fine dust build up would be a major problem.

The table insert. Again I learned with the experience with my first lift top table and even the Exacta lift. I made a plastic insert for the last table but I have never had to change it or remove it. The only time this might be an issue is if I enlarge the hole a panel raising bit. With all other bits the clearances remain minimal. The maximum most people use is maybe 1 1/2" and a smaller bit it in a hole this size are most often not an issue. Personally I don't like the panel bits but if a person wants to use them they can make an insert for the table. I mean after all, this is a DIY project and doing so would not be that difficult.

The band clamps. I'm not at all concerned with changing the bits and getting cut. You are nowhere near the clamps while changing a bit. HOWEVER, there is some concern about this happening when you make a height adjustment with the hand crank. And thanks for the nudge on this topic. I meant to bring this up in the instructions I put with the lift. If you install the clamps right this is not an issue but I do need to mention this in the instructions.

Fence. The fence I designed works perfectly and is very secure but if a person want to install something like and Incra it would be very easy to do. This is why the fence is covered in a separate video, it's up to the builder as to which fence they want to use. There is something to be said for keeping things simple. Personally I have no problem making small accurate adjustments with this fence design. And again, compared to the Exacta lift fence mine is fantastic!

The only thing I really miss a little on this table is a miter slot in the table… which of course would be an easy DIY addition. My last table had the ideal set up in this regard.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Never mind Rick, I found the Trade and Swap. And thanks!


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Mork- thanks for the reply. It is obivous that a lot effort went into this design best to you and others who are trying to improve "woodworking".


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Interesting. It wouldn't be hard to fabricate a dust cover or shroud for the chain drive mechanism.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

For sure the lift is not perfect but ultimately it is better than most on the market, at least in some respects. Quite honestly the chain is not a problem, or at least I have never had a problem with saw dust in the chain. With that said, you are correct, simply putting a wood barrier above the chain might work. If you made the barrier full width it would seal the area a little better and you could put a dust collection port in the back and split the dust collection between the bottom and fence.

The biggest plus to this design is it works with a lift top design which makes changing bit very easy and quick and way easier than any other router lift on the market. The only real negative I see besides the fact that it doesn't have a pretty paint job is that it takes time to remove and install the router.

This design really needs a dedicated router. I never remove mine.


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> Advertising. Belongs in trade and swap, not reviews, IMO.
> 
> - Rick M.


Totally agree you should not review your own product here in the review section

and for the $219 that is a stupid investment. just spend that kind of money on a "Triton TRA001 3-1/4 HP Dual Mode Precision Plunge Router" it already has a great built in lift and more power then most people will ever need

I do not get paid by Triton and Triton has never given me anything but with my years of use the Triton is the best router for the money for the router table


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

playingwithmywood - Apparently you missed my reply to Ricks polite comment. I totally agree, I should have put this in a different area.

And… I'm sure your Triton router with the built in lift is quite nice but calling my Lift "a stupid investment" is not really a fair evaluation, and in my opinion uncalled for.

I'm not going to try and argue the positive aspects of my lift other than to say that the two investments are not really comparable and what something is worth is a mater of perspective.

I am offering a competently unique product that is not large scale mass production. This in itself doesn't make it worth more but it's unique function does, at least to some. If I could lower the price I would certainly do so.


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> I m not going to try and argue the positive aspects of my lift other than to say that the two investments are not really comparable and what something is worth is a mater of perspective.
> 
> - Mork


If you cannot defend you product maybe you should not be selling it

I was trying to give new users here a heads up that this might not be a very good idea for the cost vs return and function

and if you cannot explain why your lift is better than say the Triton 3hp router then people should not part with their money and purchase your item

Here's the thing someone owns a 2 hp router and wants to mount it to a table ok you device works to mount the router but for about the same investment they could have a more powerful router with a lift like device built in

and if someone does not own a router and wants one for the table then totally skip your lift cause they would still have to buy a router so for the new person with limited knowledge here I think from my own free will not being paid by anyone that the Triton 3 hp is the best bet for the router table

I will not say you created a need where there is not a problem but you built something different but at the same time it seems to have no real advantage over other things for sale in the market and then you will not defend your item so it does kind of prove my point


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Sorry, I defended my product quite well in the review, apparently you did not read what I wrote. The advantage of this design is very clear. I'm sure the Triton is a good router especially if you need a plunge router or need the extra power for huge bits. The fact is, I can't remember a time when my 2 hp wasn't enough or when I actually needed a plunge router. Again, I am not trying to bash your router. Simply put, it comes down to what you need or desire and not what is "stupid".

One question? Can you change the bit in your router without removing the router from the base?


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> One question? Can you change the bit in your router without removing the router from the base?


yes one of the other advantages of the Triton is the Spindle Lock that allows for one tool bit changes and from above the table with a offset wrench. This allows you to easily change bits without changing the height of the router for when you are using matched set bits

Look into the Sommerfeld's Tools for Wood videos using their router bits and their matched height bits





triton video


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

I think the spindle lock is fantastic! Otherwise the lift top router table design is much easier. No raising the height and resetting and no moving the fence out of the way. Everything stays set. Oh… and if you have jigs set up (like hold downs or guides) they don't have to be removed to access the hole to adjust the height.

Again, the Triton router is very nice but a lift top router design offers some huge advantages.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Just watched the second video, for some reason it didn't load before. That's a cool jig for setting the height but i actually do the same by saving a test cut. Still a nice piece to have.

But… I stand by what I said before. Indeed there are improvements I could make to the table like perhaps a table insert and a indexing fence but overall your videos highlight the advantages of a lift top table.

I found it interesting that the guy used a push block rather than the miter slot. I do the same which is exactly why I didn't put a slot in my table.

Spindle lock… dang, I wish my router had one but honestly there are other routers that have this feature, my Porter Cable does not. Still with the easy access of a lift top using two wrenches is really quite easy.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

I think that's its a solid "invention" Mork and, imo, review away. If it needs to be moved the moderators will do so. Don't let people sway you from advertising your product. I'm certain a lot of trial and error work was put into your design and if people spent as much energy belittling another person's best effort they would be well ahead of the game in many facets. FWIW, I prefer this design over the clunkiness of my Frued router and table where I need to move the fence to raise and lower the bit. (Probably why it was on sale and I got it as cheap as I did lol)


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks Chrisstef,

Yes I agree. I searched for answers as to "whether or not I should post my lift here" and never found any. So I figured the same. If it's in the wrong area the moderator will let me know. Certainly a lot of work went into this lift. I made a few designs I really wasn't happy with and then decided to make the leap and have the slide plates cut with a water jet. My original intent was to try and sell it for around $100 but I soon realized this was way out of line. I sure wish I could make that happen, I'm sure the lifts would sell much better in this price range. I don't think people realize how much mass production can reduce price, I sure didn't! The Dri-plane Sleeve bearing (the best with wood dust) alone are $13 bucks… slide plates $24, and on and on… It adds up super quick.

With that said, the lift is priced in the middle range of most lifts and the function far exceeds any lift on the market. A lift top table, regardless of who's table design or lift you use is hands down the best way to go!

And I most definitely agree! Constructive criticism is not a bad thing at all and in fact offers me two opportunities. One, to defend my product and two, to improve it! What I have experience here is beyond constructive criticism. You see enough of this kind of behavior on other social networks. I've always thought woodworkers had the same desire as myself, to help and encourage each others with their hobby. To be certain, making money took second place in this little business adventure. If profits were number one I'd be investing in rental property or the stock market.

But thanks again for your positive comments. I really do feel this is an exceptional product even if it doesn't have a colorful anodized finish and flashy packaging. It's solid and functional.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

You have a good product there. Maybe you should approach "Shark Tank" and see if they will promote it. Being a small start-up, it is hard to justify the cost because the public doesn't know if you will be around in a year or two if the device needs repair or replacement. If I have a Dewalt tool, I am confident that 5 years from now, I will be able to get replacement parts, but there is no guarantee with your product. I think a better approach would be to see if you can sell your idea to a big name tool company and get royalties; a patent would be good to have.

I don't mean to discourage you, but you are a small fish in a big ocean. Without a large backing, the best idea in the world will get swallowed up by those with the power and money. One suggestion I have is to produce plans to make the device and sell them for a few dollars; a much more realistic money maker in my opinion with much less risk. I do machining and have the skill and machinery to make a device similar to yours. I could build one for myself, but I would not be interested in selling them to others.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks for the input Ron and I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. I looked at a patent… man that's a crazy adventure. It all came down to this, nobody can patent my idea and stop me from selling or even selling my idea although, without the patent others can make and sell my idea without buying it. But here's the bad part. Any one can buy a product like this from China. Say Rockler wants to sell this lift and I have the patent. Now Rockler can not legally own a company in China and sell my lift but they CAN buy from a Chinese company and sell the lift. I'm not saying a patent is worthless but they really don't offer the protection that they used to. And the cheapest possible patent is about $3500 unless it is questioned and then you have to go to court and defend it. Costs go through the roof after that. Then there is that troubling statistic. Most patents are worthless because they were not worded correctly. Hiring a patent lawyer helps but no guarantees. I called a lawyer… $250 per hour and the first hour is only a consultation. In the 5 minute conversation i had with this lawyer he told me that we would discus what could and could not be patented and that we would work on the actual patent later. He estimated a fee of at least $1200 at bare minimum.

Of course I knew going into this little adventure that it would not be easy but what prompted me to try was the fact that there was NO lift on the market that mounted in the cabinet. You are right about the name brand protection. For the most part they stand behind their products. With that said, this is not a complex device with switches and electronics to go bad… pretty simple concept really… But, some may not see it like I do.

I thought about selling plans… and perhaps a few would sell but honestly not many have a metal lathe or access to a water jet for cutting the slide plates or a mill for drilling the top and bottom plates. Of course it could be done without water jet but there is some pretty extreme accuracy needed to make a parallel bar slide so that it doesn't bind. .002 or .003 out of parallel and the .0005 clearance in the sleeve bearings are gone and it won't slide.

I think you are right but I also think two other factors are at play here.

1) Cost - People see this as simple and unrefined… no paint, no color, etc. They equate this with value… at least most do. If it was price at $79 I think people would buy it… of course I can't even make them for $79… not even close!

2) Band clamps. They see this is a less desirable way of holding the router.

Of course these perceptions is just that, a perception but I can also relate to them. I honestly did not like the band clamps myself and thought about alternatives for quite some time. Than after failing to improve on the idea I tried them and wow… They work fantastic! Next to wire ties worm drive band clamps are the best invention ever! )

I may try and lower my price… although I don't want to get into tons of work and make 2 bucks an hour. I think I might get it down below $200 which might help. Getting away from eBay and 12-14% fees would also help I might give my own web site a shot… although ebay has viewers and getting viewers via google ads adds cost too.

Oh well… I haven't lost my home yet - Ha… I'm kidding, there is a big investment here but nothing life altering.

Of course I could lower my price 30% if I invest and make 100 lifts at a time… Ha, not ready for that kind of risk yet. I'll stick with 20 lifts… if I can sell 1 or 2 a week for a while I might make the leap!


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

keep working on it so far nothing special enough about it to buy but heck put it up on kickstarter or the like and prove me wrong…. In reality I do not see the benefit and I would not trade any of the 6 routers in my shop for your break through…

And oh you might think this is negative but I am just trying to get people to think

maybe you could work a deal with dowelmax that have that tilting router table kits that seems kind of worthless on its own but maybe with you lift and their top you could have a winner


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Ron- I agree with you on wanting a company who is around, for future parts. I have a router lift from JessUm, a known existing router lift company. Both Power Matic and Jet used this optional lift. The problem they had was/is with the rubber belt and crank up/down mechanism- (this is a known poor design failure) I contacted JessUm, very polite, they understood the failure and offered to sell me replacement parts, BUT at over $150 plus shipping for a product that was hardly used. JessUm should have reduced the costs to their customers who have a defective product! Should anyone want to know how I jury rigged it, send me a PM. Products like JessUm and others, who have defective and ill designed parts/mechanism, seem to fail after warranty. Some manufactures help others some don't, like JessUm did to me. 
To me Mork's lift looks as solid as a car engine crankshaft. It is not foreseeable that his will fail and should it be defective you'll know when it arrives. I say this, because Mork's lift does not use Poly parts and rubber belt's like JessUm. 
Best to you and Mork


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Not a bad design . Very rugged and simple.

But I disagree with this:
The biggest plus to this design is it works with a lift top design which makes changing bit very easy and quick and way easier than any other router lift on the market.

For the last 7 or 8 years I have used a Quicklift 420 router lift from Woodpecker. You insert a handle, turn it 90 degrees to disengage the lift threads and pull the router chuck up above the table. Two wrenches to install a new bit and then then the same handle will lower the router to approximate cutting height. No tilt-top and way easier than bit changes on your system.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Woodpecker, I just like their Quicklift router lifts! If you haven't used one, you really do not know what you are missing.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks… and you are correct. It's too simple in function to have any significant failure. Yep, your Jessum lift is the same one I had sold under the Exacta (Jet) name. I didn't have problems with the belt stretching but I did have it clog with dust. I had a lot of problem with the height changing. It had a rubber washer under a lock nut on the threads. If you tighten the nut it created resistance so you don't loose your setting. The problem I had was that when you tighten this nut tight enough to stop movement you had a hard time making any adjustment. I never contacted them but I suspect they would do nothing. It would require significant change to fix.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

EEngineer, thanks for the complement, simplicity is usually better if it accomplished the objectives. Interesting, I haven't seen the Quicklift router lift!

It sounds like your lift has addressed one inconvenience inherent in most router lift designs. Cranking the lift all the way up to access the chuck is not very convenient.

I suspect you still have to move your fence out of the way and move hold downs, guides or jigs to access the adjustment hole to raise the bit. I've never seen your lift so perhaps they have addressed second issue.

These two factors really make my lift shine. Obviously many cases moving the fence is no big deal but sometimes it's a big plus to be able to leave it set. I have a pair of tongue an groove bits I can swap out and never touch the fence. If I could convince the bit manufacturers to make the shanks the same length I wouldn't have to adjust the height either. It's the same with guided bits, as long as the guide bearing is the same diameter you never have to adjust the fence.

My lift isn't perfect. If you only have one router and need to utilize your table router as a hand-held router then my lift is not very convenient. I recommend having a dedicated router for the table. Plus the table itself, although not difficult to build is significantly more work than simply cutting a hole in a table top.

I guess it's all about trade offs and how you utilize your router. For what I do the lift top is far more convenient than any other design. I will have to say that the Quicklift did well addressing one inconvenience!

Thanks for commenting, it's always good to have different perspective.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

EEngineer. I checked out the Quick Lift. Very impressive! I especially like the motor mounting method. Well thought out. Although, like mine its a little time consuming to install and remove the router… which is not a problem as far as I'm concerned. There were some things I didn't like… locking with the little hex key is not so convenient although i suspect this adds drag so you could still make an adjustment if you didn't get it too tight. And like all other table top mounting lifts, accessing any function through the top and having to move the fence to change a bit is a negative.

I suspect I'd buy this lift over others if I didn't have the cabinet mount lift. The model with the side adjustment would be a little nicer I think. One question… dose the little thumb wheel get moved if you don't lock things down? From the videos it looks like this could happen fairly easy.

I think the biggest "perceived" negative of my lift is the worm drive clamps. In reality they work incredibly well but if the perception is bad people won't buy. Maybe I need to consider something like the Quick lift. Quite honestly I made a overhead router about 12 years ago that had something very similar but it would be hard to apply to my current lift. FYI - I prefer a router table over the overhead router anyway. It was nice to see the cut but indexing the cut from the opposite side of the wood caused a lot of problems. The slightest variation in wood thickness made thing ugly. Thanks for posting your comments!


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> . If I could convince the bit manufacturers to make the shanks the same length I wouldn t have to adjust the height either.
> - Mork


Hey someone already does this http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/why-our-tool-sets-are-best and others do also I think some MLCS and some Infinity are matched for height also on some of there products

the key is using


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

MLCS has sure come up with what looks like a winner…

This is interesting!


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Mork -
its a little time consuming to install and remove the router… which is not a problem as far as I'm concerned
Me, neither. I have an old Craftsman that I use for any hand routing and I have never removed the DeWalt router from the table since I built it.

locking with the little hex key is not so convenient although i suspect this adds drag so you could still make an adjustment if you didn't get it too tight. 
The unit you were probably looking at is the new, improved (translate: more expensive) PRL V2. They no longer make the 420, which I have. My 420 has a constant "drag" built-in. I have not had a problem with the bit height creeping while cutting, but I have heard of others that did. That may be why Woodpecker made it adjustable in the newest model.

I especially like the motor mounting method. Well thought out.
Unsurprisingly, the motor mount has been through the most evolution on the Woodpecker lifts. The mounting on the V2 is considerably different than on my 420 but I have never had any problems with mine.

And like all other table top mounting lifts, accessing any function through the top and having to move the fence to change a bit is a negative.
I haven't found it too troublesome. By the time I get to a bit change, the setup is changing anyway. There are times, however… 

Understand, I am not picking on your design. If yours had been available when I acquired my router table I might well have ended up with it just due to cost. I paid more for the lift than I had into the router AND table! (special circumstances - read about it here )

If I could convince the bit manufacturers to make the shanks the same length I wouldn t have to adjust the height either.
I don't believe that would really fix the issue. Due to the design of router collets, you don't want to bottom the bit in the collet. This can mechanically lock the bit and make it impossible to remove even after the collet is loosened. You need to "lift" the bit slightly to make sure it is not bottomed in the collet. "Slightly" = variable. I have heard of people dropping O-rings into the bottom of the collet to prevent this but what makes that work provides a few thousandths of variability.


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes., I agree. MLCS has a lot of winners.

EEngineer: Yes, I never bottom my bit in the chuck although there was a time I never worried about it. I never had a bit come loose. I'd have to give it a try if I had bits with matching shaft length. I wonder how many people lift the bit? It's not a topic that comes up in daily conversation but my high school shop teacher and you are the only people that I've ever heard say this (although it does sound logical).


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## Mork (Oct 20, 2010)

DesertWoodworker>"To me Mork's lift looks as solid as a car engine crankshaft. It is not foreseeable that his will fail and should it be defective you'll know when it arrives. I say this, because Mork's lift does not use Poly parts and rubber belt's like JessUm.
Best to you and Mork"

Thanks, DesertWoodworker. And you are right… solid steel and some brass sleeve bearing. Not much to go wrong really.


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> Yes., I agree. MLCS has a lot of winners.
> 
> EEngineer: Yes, I never bottom my bit in the chuck although there was a time I never worried about it. I never had a bit come loose. I d have to give it a try if I had bits with matching shaft length. I wonder how many people lift the bit? It s not a topic that comes up in daily conversation but my high school shop teacher and you are the only people that I ve ever heard say this (although it does sound logical).
> 
> - Mork


its simple put the rubber grommet in all of your routers and then never think about it again. it is a simple solution that they have proven for years to work http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/why-our-tool-sets-are-best


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

has a good demo on O-rings and router bits. Remember to remove your O-ring after each cutting or it my "melt" into the collet


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## playingwithmywood (Jan 10, 2014)

> has a good demo on O-rings and router bits. Remember to remove your O-ring after each cutting or it my "melt" into the collet
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


very interesting with the little bits and heat transfer to the o-ring

with the 1/2 shank bits I have never seen this happen using the wire grommet that sommerfeld includes with their bit sets


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