# Pocket Hole Question



## wholesalestunna (Nov 4, 2018)

Okay, I know a lot of people hate pocket holes for a lot of really good reasons but there's definately a time and a place for them. Can you help me understand when the proper time and place for them is? I understand that with the wood swelling and shrinking you don't want to use them for breadboard ends, but what about just the vertical slats making up a regular table top without breadboards? Would the wood shrink and swell causing that to split or would it just kind of move with the wood? Also what about attatching the top to the frame of the table? Thanks


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

I'm not sure by what you mean by the "vertical slats making up a regular table top". If by that you mean using pocket screws to edge joint boards for a top glue-up, don't bother: a joint-ready edge holds just fine with glue, and pocket screws don't really offer anything in that scenario. If you are referring to attaching the aprons to the legs, than pocket screws are shunned in favor of more traditional and sturdier methods (mortise and tenon, floating tenons, etc).

As for attaching the table top to the aprons, you generally want to attach it in such a way that the fasteners do not restrict wood movement. To this end, many of us use things like figure 8 fasteners, L-clips, or any number of other methods that allow the top to move. If you want to read a little more on this, I found this link: http://www.craftsmanspace.com/knowledge/17-ways-to-fasten-a-tabletop.html

Hope that helps, and let me know if I misread anything.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I do use them frequently for face frames or in conjunction with Dominoes or biscuits for connecting exposed cabinet sides.

But I will comment that your post brings to mind many ways pocket screws are inferior and can get you in trouble.

The two applications you refer to are both ill-advised use because in the first case pocket screws are meant to joint wood at 90° angles, not parallel grain. Plus, it is unnecessary and can lead to error in a panel glue up, as pocket screws will move the wood unless clamped.

As well with attaching the top to an apron or frame. With the grain no issue, but across the width, there is no allowance for movement. Clips or other methods are used to attach tops.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i agree with dustin on this,the only thing i use pocket screws for is when im making face frames for cabinets,makes assembly fast and easy,dont need clamps.but there are many other uses.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I have resisted the urge to buy a pocket hole jig ever since they first came out. I was starting to think that maybe I should give it a try, but the cost has gone way up, so I think I will skip it. I've never really found a situation where pocket holes would solve a joinery problem. Traditional joint making is the best way to go.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

but what about just the vertical slats making up a regular table top without breadboards?

Most table tops are horizontal, what do you mean by vertical slats?

Pocket screws definitely have a place, no. 1 is face frames. I use them all of the time for shop jigs and even cabinets for the shop. I will also use them in furniture construction in non-structural situations.


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## jutsFL (Nov 1, 2018)

> I m not sure by what you mean by the "vertical slats making up a regular table top". If by that you mean using pocket screws to edge joint boards for a top glue-up, don t bother: a joint-ready edge holds just fine with glue, and pocket screws don t really offer anything in that scenario. If you are referring to attaching the aprons to the legs, than pocket screws are shunned in favor of more traditional and sturdier methods (mortise and tenon, floating tenons, etc).
> 
> As for attaching the table top to the aprons, you generally want to attach it in such a way that the fasteners do not restrict wood movement. To this end, many of us use things like figure 8 fasteners, L-clips, or any number of other methods that allow the top to move. If you want to read a little more on this, I found this link: http://www.craftsmanspace.com/knowledge/17-ways-to-fasten-a-tabletop.html
> 
> ...


Agreed. 
Top with just panel glue up is more than sturdy. The aprons to the top, try a quick search on z clips or figure 8 clips. Pocket screws for aprons to legs, perfect spot for them IMO - in fact, all hidden butt joints are perfect pocket screw spots…that is, depending on how snooty of a woodworker you are


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

Just finished a large drawer out of plywood put together with butt joints, glue and pocket hole screws. Love it. Probably could park my F150 on that drawer and it wouldn't give. Also used pocket hole screws on the frame of a cabinet and really liked them in that build as well.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Pocket hole is my preferred method. Are there down falls to it? Sure. Just like any method.

Strength, speed and quality, should be measured appropriately.

Pocket hole allow me to be competitive with a lot of people. Ymmv.


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## lumbering_on (Jan 21, 2017)

I was leery of using pocket hole screws for years, but I decided to give it a try because time was becoming an important consideration for me. After trying them, they really do have some advantages as well as disadvantages. The big advantage is time. Apart from just driving screws straight into the wood, they are easily the fastest way to create a joint out there. It's also very easy to mate the two ends, although there are times it's harder, but those are times I don't use pocket holes. Contrary to popular belief, they are quite sturdy joints and allow for limited movement of wood, but never use them in a table top. Just go to any decent furniture store and you'll find pocket hole joinery in most non-upholstered items; there's a reason for that.

Of course, there is a tendency for some to go overboard with pocket hole screws. The biggest issue with them is the fact they're screws, which means they are rather unsightly. Any time they're not hidden you'll see them plain as day, and filling the holes doesn't hide them, despite what some argue. It's also hard to argue that if you're making heirloom quality furniture for yourself that using screws doesn't' exactly fit the bill.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

I tried using pocket screws on a table top once. ONCE!

Anyway, it didn't work out too well. Unless you have things clamped REALLY well, the pocket screws will move the work around on you. It works very well on face frames because you can easily throw many clamps onto a joint to make sure everything stays aligned as you drive in the screw.

In the middle of a table it gets hard because, depending on the size of the boards you're using, you might not be able to get a clamp to keep the board flush with the one next to it. I ended up using a belt sander to flatten the top of that table.

Cauls might work. But with all of the clamps and cauls you'd need, you might as well just glue it up.

I don't make face frames very often, but I use my pocket screws for making plywood drawers. I put the pockets in the front and back facing out (so you can't see them when you look into the drawer) and screw them into the sides. The front pocket screws are covered by the drawer face and no one will ever see the back pockets. And since the force of opening the drawer is perpendicular to the screws, they tend to hold pretty well.


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## wholesalestunna (Nov 4, 2018)

Hey guys, thanks for the advice. Sorry my original post wasn't very clear… I don't know why I typed vertical slats. I meant the boards on the table top between the breadboard ends… Vertical definitely isn't the word to describe that! I picked up some clamps this morning so I am going to try to start gluing my table tops for future builds. I didn't realize the glue was as strong as it was. Thanks for the great info!


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## aravenel (Nov 24, 2017)

Cabinetry. Face frames, the boxes themselves, even drawers as noted. Pocket screws makes it quick, easy, and plenty strong. And unless you are a glutton for punishment who really gets a kick out of making big plywood boxes, most time I'm doing a cabinet I just want it done-I don't want to spend all day fine tuning rabbets and messing with getting a bunch of heavy clamps just right while waiting for the glue to dry.

Many ways to build cabinets, but for my time, pocket screws are the way I go most of the time.

The other place I use them a fair amount is in knocking together mockups. If I'm trying to test designs for a project, can't beat the speed of pocket screws, and I'm not worried about long term durability anyways.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

+1 with Aravenel…


> Cabinetry. Face frames, the boxes themselves, even drawers as noted. Pocket screws makes it quick, easy, and plenty strong. And unless you are a glutton for punishment who really gets a kick out of making big plywood boxes, most time I m doing a cabinet I just want it done-I don t want to spend all day fine tuning rabbets and messing with getting a bunch of heavy clamps just right while waiting for the glue to dry.


quick, easy and strong…....just be careful to hide the "pockets" underneath or in the back!


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## wholesalestunna (Nov 4, 2018)

So another question for table top. Is biscuits an effective means of joinery for table tops to allow the wood to move properly if the top is then attached to the table frame by using figure 8 fasteners?


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I see where using pocket holes for joints has a place, especially for production shops. I have the Kreg K4 jig and a assortment of Kreg screws, if I do decide to use pocket holes. I've only used it once in the last year, and that was to test it out on some scrap pieces. I still use the other methods instead (tenons, biscuits, locking miter and dowels).


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So another question for table top. Is biscuits an effective means of joinery for table tops to allow the wood to move properly if the top is then attached to the table frame by using figure 8 fasteners?
> 
> - wholesalestunna


for table tops i use bisquits basically to keep the boards aligned for glue up not for strenght then fasten the top to the base with figure 8 fasteners or another method that will allow for wood movement.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

old style screw pocket:

https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/a-george-i-walnut-side-table-%E2%80%93-part-four/

done with a gouge, I guess.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

As pottz said, biscuits are primarily for alignment so that the glue up of the top stays (mostly) aligned while clamping. For you original question about using pocket screws, the only reason I might conisider using them as you described is if I didn't have enough clamps for the length of the top I am gluing up and didn't want to spend the money for a 1 time project. Even then you still need some clamps along the entire length using the pocket screws in between the clamps to apply a little extra clamping force.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I forgot to mention about attaching the top to the aprons… You have several options but pocket holes are not one of them. This article from Woodcraft explains it pretty well. Note that if you use the figure 8 clips,t they should be slightly angled relative to the side aprons so that they can more easily pivot with the wood movement.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

Yep you do have to consider movement, unless it's a plywood top.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

I agree, in theory, pockets shouldn't be used across grain

With that said, almost all of the major table companies I dealt with over a 20 yr period in the furniture business did just that.

I don't recall one single problem.

In fact, out of a bunch of solid wood furniture companies, all of them ignored this "rule" one way or another.

But I still use clips.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> I agree, in theory, pockets shouldn't be used across grain
> 
> With that said, almost all of the major table companies I dealt with over a 20 yr period in the furniture business did just that.
> 
> ...


Not too many furniture companies around that don't use veneered particleboard, MDF or at least plywood for their table tops which would not have nearly the problems with wood movement that a glued up slab would have. In my experience, if you see that they simply screwed (and/or glued) the top to the aprons somehow, that is a pretty good sign that it's not a real solid wood top under the veneer.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

No veneers. Solid wood products only.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> old style screw pocket:
> 
> https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/a-george-i-walnut-side-table-%E2%80%93-part-four/
> 
> ...


Now that's a project I would be proud of.


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## tubaforewilly (Jul 13, 2016)

I adore my Kreg jig…...and my dovetail saw…..

I use them both on just about every project. You know….something old….something new


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