# My rails and stiles just won't fit!



## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

My latest project is new kitchen cabinets for our house. I've run into some difficulty and I'm stuck. I just can't seem to get the rails and stiles to fit snugly no matter how many shims I add to my router bit. I contacted the seller of the bit and he sent me a smaller bearing, saying that should fix the problem. It didn't. Before we get into the less than helpful- "just buy an expensive bit", I want to make sure it's not me who's messing up this joint.
Could anyone help me troubleshoot? I'm in a holding pattern and can't move forward until I get this worked out. I've done a thorough amount of research online as well, and just can't seem to make it tight.

Bit and Table:



























The Joints: Rails are on the right, Stiles on the left, new smaller bearing
No shims:









4 shim on rail bit, Zero on Stile:









4 shim on Rail, 2 on Stile:









Larger original bearing and 1 shim on rail, 2 on stile:









I have pictures of all the combinations of shims on rail and stile I've made, but these are the ones that are the tightest, and even these are super loose.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I really prefer the two bit sets. Less adjustments to make, which simplifies things.

Either there is some magic combination of shims, or the bit is defective.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Even with an expensive 2 piece set, stiles and rails are no peach to set up. I just finished up my first foray with them and the most important thing I noticed was stock prep. All pieces need to be exactly the same thickness and dead flat. If it wanders the least bit on your router table it becomes noticeable. My stock was .03 different and it showed. Lots of hand plane work to even them out.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Take all the shims out.

Measure to the top of the undercutter, s/b .125" (1/8"), when inverted the underside should be .625" (5/8") assuming exactly .750" (3/4") stock.

Stock thickness variations around .750" will double the error. Shims should not be needed on new sets. Shims magnify gaps. More shims = more gap.

Set your bits with a DRO.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

> the most important thing I noticed was stock prep. All pieces need to be exactly the same thickness and dead flat. I
> 
> - chrisstef


+1.

#1 rule to follow, even if the pieces were planed a day in advance I would still run them through the planer prior to routing just to make sure they're still the same (exact) thickness.


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> Even with an expensive 2 piece set, stiles and rails are no peach to set up. I just finished up my first foray with them and the most important thing I noticed was stock prep. All pieces need to be exactly the same thickness and dead flat. If it wanders the least bit on your router table it becomes noticeable. My stock was .03 different and it showed. Lots of hand plane work to even them out.
> 
> - chrisstef


Firstly, Chrisstef, your pantry doors have me drooling. Gah, they're gorgeous! Secondly, should I be doing anything more than just holding the wood side by side and seeing that they're the same height? The pictured stuff is mdf because I was sick of wasting my good wood just to find a perfect fit before routing the real stuff. This is such a pain- I'm so close to being done with this set of cabinets, and this has me dead in my tracks!


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> Take all the shims out.
> 
> Measure to the top of the undercutter, s/b .125" (1/8"), when inverted the underside should be .625" (5/8") assuming exactly .750" (3/4") stock.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice, MadMark, thank you. Headed to HF to get a DRO and I'll check the settings.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment. MDF should be dead flat and the same thickness but, if it were me, id do like Mark and use a set of veneer calipers. Cheapo's can be had at harbor freight for a song. Ken echoed my initial thought after I had routed all my stiles and rails …. run it through the planer immediately before routing. They're finicky little bits and every minute error is magnified in the final product. You need machinist precision for these puppies to produce top quality.

Put on some good calming tunes and keep tinkering, you'll get it eventually.


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## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

I made lots of firewood before I was able to get tongue/groove rail/stile sets that I was happy with. Two things that made a difference. A digital depth meter.

http://www.amazon.com/iGAGING-DIGITAL-MULTI-GAUGE-WOODWORKERS-WELDERS/dp/B0032OG42O?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00

And this two piece router set.

http://www.amazon.com/1-3-Dia-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

Feather boards are used both top and side while passing the pieces over the bits to maintain spacing.

Practice and test cuts are key. Expect to burn wood while figuring out what works for you.


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> Measure to the top of the undercutter, s/b .125" (1/8"), when inverted the underside should be .625" (5/8") assuming exactly .750" (3/4") stock.
> - MadMark


MadMark, I got a digital caliper but I'm confused on your directions. s/b mean should be? Measuring to top of undercutter from table base? By inverted you mean… Sorry if these are newb q's, but I am new to this. Thanks!


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The inversion is when you change from rail to stile. The cutters change sequence on the shaft. The tongue and groove are flat and easiy to measure. Your stock is .750, the undercut is .125. When you restack the cutters and cut upside down, that edge needs to be at 5/8 or .625 (.750 - .125 = .625). This should match your setups to just a couple thou.

M


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## wuddoc (Mar 21, 2008)

In addition you may want to consider feather boards as Skatefriday suggests. The slightest change in pressure (variable) against the wood during machining changes the geometry. Feather boards reduce that variable by creating consistent pressure.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Brittany - Couple of things I have learned and have spent a few dollars to find out. Router tables, routers, and bits have a whole bunch of variables - all of which do not work in your favor.

I have a good router (3+ HP) for the table. It is heavy, variable speed, soft start and isn't fazed by much that I put to it. Smaller ones will not give you the kind of results that you want for this work.

The table that I bought is one of many that are out the and it sits on a cabinet that I made - when doing any routing with wood up to 30 lbs., it does not move - except the top where the router bit comes out. When you push a piece of wood through the bit, you also push down - can't help it, it is gonna happen. This is where feather boards come in - once set, it applies the same pressure in that direction all of the time on boards that are the same thickness. I make my own but the store bought ones work well also. You want to set these just in front of the bit - 1/8" or so.

Router bits - this is a topic all in itself. I have used the bits that you change and the pairs of bits. I have used bits made from here and there and most companies make bits that are great. Door bits are an animal all of their own - so I have found. To fit together it takes time. When I cut rails and stiles for 4 doors, I make the rails and stiles for 5 doors. One of the spare rails and stiles are for mistakes that you make on the production doors (a production shop does things a little differently), the other one is setup and cut to 6" lengths. I have to say at this point, I have decided that I have invested in Freud bits for all of the panel doors that I make - cabinet and entry. They have been very accurate and extremely sharp - they cut everything that gets in their way and they do it well.

When you cut end grain for the rails - always put another board (cull) against the right side of the board. You want to router into that cull or you will splinter the crap out of it and kick it back (which can hurt). I use a 6" wide piece to do this to help keep the primary piece cutting straight through the opening.

When you rip the profile with the grain, watch the direction of the grain, if it catches against the grain, it will chip it out. Once you do this a couple of times you will understand what I am saying.

I usually run the end grain cuts first - that's a me thing, center the profile on the culls that you made. Once this is set, using you table saw, cut the ones you don't like off the culls - or this could get very confusing. Once set, do all of the cuts on the culls and rail ends. Set the door rails away from where you are working, just work with the culls for now.

Remove the bit and put in the other profile. Using one of the culls, set the height as close to the other profile that you can and run one of the stile culls through the bit and match up to the rail culls. Align the height up and down as required. After you have set the height to match the culls, take the new cull to the door rails that you have cut and test the fit. If they match up, you are clear to run one of the production stiles - then test the fit. If this fits, run the rest of the stiles.

Here is the biggest problem that folks have - running the profile for the rails. Many times they get the board upside down - very easy to do. Using the rail cull, cut the profile and fit to the stiles. Once you have this set, stack all of the rails the same way and cut them.

If the bits do not match each others' profiles - take them back and get a refund. I hope that I am not confusing you more.

Good luck


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

SoCalWoodGal,

Looking at the large bearing with shims photo, it appears that the rail is slightly thicker than the stile. Perhaps to aid in trouble shooting and saving some hardwood, a few test strips of ¾" thick MDF ripped from the same sheet would eliminate any variability in stock thickness. I would think this set up is a one-time effort. Once the joint is dialed in to a nice fit, the MDF stile and rail components can be cut and saved as references for future set-ups, with the proper shimming of each stack written on the MDF.

Fine tuning the stile cutter stack is straight forward. With no shims, the groove is moved as close to the profile cutter as it can ever be. Shimming the stile cutter has only one effect; to move the location of the groove away from the profile cutter. Since the profile cutter is presumably bottomed out on the router bit shank, its position remains fixed relative to the router table surface. Since the slot cutter height is fixed, altering the height of the groove is not possible.

The cope stack (rails) is more complex because the "show" face on the work piece is not referenced against the router table, but is up when cutting the cope. The minimum height of the tongue is determined by the height of the bearing. The smaller bearing (I assume the height of the bearing) will produce a narrower tongue than the original large bearing. No matter the bearing, shimming between the profile cutter and the slot cutter can only increase the height of the tongue. Unfortunately, if the only manipulation of the shims on the cope cutter is to add or remove shims between the slot and the profile cutter, the joint will never close. This is because that as shims are added or removed, the distance of the profile cutter from the router table is also changed by the amount of the shims added or removed between the profile and slot cutters. The slot cutter, bottomed out on the router bit shaft, remains fixed relative to table. This may explain why the tongue always rests on the lower face of the grooves in all of your photos and shimming the rail stack introduces the gap in the profile fit, no matter the configuration of shims used.

Assuming this has been the method of shimming the cope stack, better fitting joints could perhaps be achieved by first adding a stack of the shims below the slot cutter (so the slot cutter bottoms out on a stack of shims). The slot cutter is added to the stack (set on top of the shim stack), followed by the bearing and then the profile cutter completes the stack. The distance of the profile cutter from the router table is adjusted by setting the router height adjustment so that the profiles of the rail and stile form a nice fitting joint without regard to the alignment or fit of the tongue and groove. In order to perfect the fit of the tongue and groove, shims are added or removed from between the slot cutter and the profile bit. The same number (thickness) of shims are also added or removed from under the slot cutter. When these lower-most shims (below the slot cutter) are added or removed, the distance of the profile cutter from the router table is returned to its previous position. By doing this, the profiles or the stile and rail will remain a nice fit, and the only adjustment is to the tongue.


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## KellyB (Mar 1, 2015)

Have you considered using a coping sled? The store-bought ones are a bit pricey, but I find the ability to hold both pieces in precisely the same orientation is important.

+1 for stock prep.

I'm not a fine woodworker by any means, but with the Freud two-bit set, i have been quite successful, to my surprise. It does take a good deal of fiddling, and I also use the digital gauge mentioned by skatefriday.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

A coping sled works but they drive me crazy. If you router into them they get messed up. They want you to have one for every profile and that makes them expensive and space consuming. For me, I have 2 trash cans of culls to use.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

I have a two bit set from Grizzly. Took me a while to get it set right for the first batch of doors I made. So, thinking for the future, I used some scrap Poplar and routed set-up pieces for future use. Next time I did a bunch of cabinet doors, set-up was very easy. Of course, as said earlier, wood thickness has to be the same as the set-up pieces and consistently so.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I don't have one of these but I just read the Woodsmith (Issue#183) article about using them. You can buy access to their back issues here: Woodsmithlibrary.com. It is a great reference and I search it all the time for tips and designs. You can search their back issues for free but you'll have to buy access to see most of the articles. 
Here are the highlights of their article. 
- Everything must be perfectly flat and straight and a consistent thickness as close to 3/4" as possible. Make some test pieces of the same stock to hone in your setup. 
- When setting the height of the bit, shoot for the narrow shoulder on the coped edge to be about 3/32" thick. Find this setting using your test pieces. If you use a sled, don't forget to account for that in your setup. 
- When setting up the fence, put a straight edge on the fence and align the bearing against it. 
- Cut profiles on the ends of the rails first with a backer board to reduce tear out. A coping sled or miter gauge with auxiliary fence can be helpful to keep everything under control and square to the fence.
- When setting up the stile bit, the slot cutter part of the bit should be aligned with the tenon on the end of the rail. You should be able to eyeball this (according to WS) and also tell whether the narrow shoulder mentioned above lines up with the part of the bit that cuts the shoulder. This may be where you have to adjust the shims to get everything to line up. The tenon that is left by the gap made by the bearing and shim must be the same width as the cutter.










There is more information in the article if you can find someone with a copy or digital access. One thing that they did say is that the 1-bit reversible bits are a bit fussy because of the shims and so the cost savings come with the loss of ease use.

One other thing that I noticed is that the 1-bit reversible setup in your pictures above is upside down compared to the pictures in their setup where they used a 2-bit system. In their setup, they always cut with the outside face against the table which might make setup easier if that is possible with your reversible bit. If you think about it, you want your reference point to be the part you see.

Hope this helps.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I do it exactly as shown above ^. A router lift makes dialing that easy.

Seems to me your problem may be the bits. So long as the tongue cutter of the stile bit matches the gap in the rail set, then the only variable should be bit height. You can use a micrometer to check this, but the proof will be in the test cuts.

FYI, I use a one piece Whiteside bit which works great for me.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

SCWG, I use two bits for making doors. They are set up with both rail and stile face down. Since I have all doors sanded on a wide belt sander after assembling them,* same thickness is not an issue* because I am indexing off of one surface, always the face. It helps, but is not critical, as long as you set up the bits properly. Fences and feather boards are a must, both face and edge. The feathers are there to help with twisted or bowed wood. If you do use twisted wood, unless you know how to correct and make your doors flat in the clamps, they will be twisted when removed from said clamps. Bowed wood isn't too much of a factor as it's not really seen unless it's a big bow.

Looking at your router bit, here is what I see. The groove for the stiles and rails can only be 1/4" wide. The bit will not allow any other size. So, that's the size you have to work with. The bearing should give you a 1/4" tongue without shims on the rail set up. Put your bit together with the bearing in between both cutters for making rails. If you don't have the fancy dancy tools available to measure the the gap between the two cutters, use a 1/4" drill bit. That should be the correct spacing for the rail tongue. Run a piece to see if it's 1/4". If you need a thicker tongue, then use the shims provided to achieve the 1/4" tongue. That's all you need to do.

When routing the rail ends, I usually get tearout on both ends, so what I do is cut my rails at least 1/2" wider than what I need. If I'm making 2 1/4" stiles and rails, I cut my rails at least 5" wide, and after the rail ends are detailed, I saw off one bad edge on all rails, and then split them to 2 1/4" to clean them up. I then route all stiles and rails with the stile bit for all pieces *face* down.

After looking at the pictures of your samples, I'm a little concerned with the terrible saw marks on the ends of that MDF. It looks like something is terribly wrong with your saw or the blade you were using. ............. Jerry (in Tucson)


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

In the pictures, the stile profile is cutting the groove too close to the top, making the pattern profile too narrow.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

The detail should be on the bottom when cutting, and the groove cutter should be at the top. ............. Jerry (in Tucson)


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

Unfortunately in tinkering last night the router broke loose from the insert plate so today will be spent making a new one. Sigh. Always problem solving, right? After that, I will attempt your excellent suggestions, everyone. Thank you for chiming in!


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

SoCalWoodGal,

I share Lazyman's observation that your rail cutter stack is inverted when compared to a matched cope and stick set. But in the case of your reversible router bit set, I do not believe it can be reversed. I assumed based on the yellow color of your cutters, that you are using a WoodTec reversible set. Their diagram for a reversible cope and stick set show the cope (rail) stack as pictured above.

I doubt that simply dropping the profile cutter to the bottom of the stack, with the roller bearing, and then the slot cutter setting atop the stack will produce the coped joint you are after. Flipping the cutters over and installing on the shaft set up the cutters for a rotation opposite to that produced by the router in the router table. Using the cutters in this flipped orientation would probably produce a bad cut at best and could be dangerous.

And you are right, at least in my experience; if its not one thing, it is another.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

One other thing. Make sure the router spindle is exactly 90 degrees to the router table in all directions. If not the bit will wobble and not cut correctly.


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> The slot cutter, bottomed out on the router bit shaft, remains fixed relative to table. This may explain why the tongue always rests on the lower face of the grooves in all of your photos and shimming the rail stack introduces the gap in the profile fit, no matter the configuration of shims used.
> 
> Assuming this has been the method of shimming the cope stack, better fitting joints could perhaps be achieved by first adding a stack of the shims below the slot cutter (so the slot cutter bottoms out on a stack of shims). The slot cutter is added to the stack (set on top of the shim stack), followed by the bearing and then the profile cutter completes the stack. The distance of the profile cutter from the router table is adjusted by setting the router height adjustment so that the profiles of the rail and stile form a nice fitting joint without regard to the alignment or fit of the tongue and groove. In order to perfect the fit of the tongue and groove, shims are added or removed from between the slot cutter and the profile bit. The same number (thickness) of shims are also added or removed from under the slot cutter. When these lower-most shims (below the slot cutter) are added or removed, the distance of the profile cutter from the router table is returned to its previous position. By doing this, the profiles or the stile and rail will remain a nice fit, and the only adjustment is to the tongue.
> 
> - JBrow


JBrow,
I'm a little confused by this- wouldn't adding shims below the slot cutter have the same effect as raising the bit height?


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> SoCalWoodGal,
> 
> I doubt that simply dropping the profile cutter to the bottom of the stack, with the roller bearing, and then the slot cutter setting atop the stack will produce the coped joint you are after. Flipping the cutters over and installing on the shaft set up the cutters for a rotation opposite to that produced by the router in the router table. Using the cutters in this flipped orientation would probably produce a bad cut at best and could be dangerous.
> - JBrow


Correct,
This type of reversible bit isn't capable of this configuration. From the site I got the bit from:

Classical Raised Panel
Cutter Diameter 1-5/8" 
Cut Depth 0.958" 
Bearing Diameter 5/8" 
Total Length 3.125"


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

Bear with me, here comes some numbers and comparisons.

I did another run with no shims, but with featherboards.

measurement of the tongue on the rail was .244 
measurement of the slot on the stile was .285
Noticeable gap. 









With 2 shims added to the rail cut, the tongue increased to .252 
Noticeable gap.









measurement of the 
large bearing: .274 thick
small bearing: .235 thick

measurement of the tooth thickness on each of the 3 blades on slot cutter:
.252 (2) and one at .248 Could be user error, but seems strange to me that one was a little smaller.

So, as you can see the numbers don't match. I set the bit as close to the .125 and .625 suggested by MadMark.

I tried the small bearing on just the rail, not the stile, reasoning that what I needed was a fatter profile cut. No shims. Still a gap.









If I set the bit alone by the cuts to see what is going on visually, I see that the slot in the stile is too big, and the tongue and profile in the rail is not big enough. What is causing the difference?





































I think it's possible that the circled part is cutting too much off, adding to the too large of a gap on the stile.


















Since there's nothing between the profile and slot cutter for the stile, that seems to be the only thing accounting for the width. Thoughts?


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

This is why I switched to hand tools.










Seriously, good luck. I know this is frustrating.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

You're missing a washer (not a shim) in between. Did you notice where the washers were originally? I noticed three on top of your first rig & that is just wrong.

The slot cutter is your reference edge. Its location is the same but inverted so what was up from the bottom is now down from the top. .125" in from the outer surface.

M


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## jar944 (Jun 19, 2014)

> measurement of the tongue on the rail was .244
> measurement of the slot on the stile was .285
> measurement of the tooth thickness on each of the 3 blades on slot cutter:
> .252 (2) and one at .248 Could be user error, but seems strange to me that one was a little smaller.
> ...


Your measurements indicate the router is not 90 Degrees to the table. And bit off 90 degrees swings the cutter out of plane and does exactly what you have there.. a narrow tongue and a wide groove.

If the slot cutter is .252 the groove has to be within a couple thousands, unless the shaft is bent, or the router is off 90 degrees.

It's actually even a common problem on the "little" 400lb delta HD shapers.

If you can't get it to work, and you want it done now you can always just use jack miters and floating or integral tenons. Cope and stick is faster, unless it isnt..


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

SoCalWoodGal,

I am glad that you apparently got the router re-mounted.

While working on this reply, Madmark posted his observation that has a lot of appeal to me. I suspect he has found your problem, simply an improperly stacked set of cutters. I personally believe that there is a high likelihood that the original roller bearing with the cutters stacked as designed by the manufacturer will produce good results. But if I am wrong and continued adjusting of the stacks is required, then here is my elaboration of my earlier post.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have no experience with reversible cop and stick cutters. I use matched sets of cope and stick cutters. My recommendations flow from an analysis of this problem and from observations made from your photos and my suspicion that you shimmed about every way possible except perhaps as I suggest.

Based on almost all your photos, as shims are added between the slot cutter and the profile cutter, the gap between the stile and rail profile widens. At the same time, the bottom face of the tongue on the rail consistently rests against the bottom of the groove in the stile no matter what you do. Also, the stile is cut with the "show face" down while the rail cut is made with the "show" face up.

When I add all these observations together, I conclude that when the rail cutter is adjusted by only adding or removing shims between the slot and the profile cutters, the distance of the profile cutter from the router table changes. For example, suppose the profiles of the rail and stile cutters match perfectly with no shims. However, the fit of the tongue into the groove is not just right. Therefore 3 @ .020" shims are added between the slot cutter and the profile cutter on the rail stack. The height of the tongue on the rail will increase by 3 x .020" = .060". Maybe this is a good fit of the tongue, but now the profiles no longer fit perfectly; a gap has emerged. The reason is that while the 3 added shims increased the thickness of the tongue on the rail, these shims also raised the profile cutter by 3 x .020". This is because the added shims also raised the profile cutter off the router table by .060".

Now suppose the no shim rail cutter is stacked with 6

```
.020” shims below the slot cutter.  The slot cutter, roller bearing, and profile cutter are added to the stack on top of the 6 shims.  The router bit height is adjusted down so that the profile cutter in this stack fits snuggly with the stile profile.  However, just as before, the tongue does not quite fit.  Therefore 3
```
 .020" shims are added between the slot cutter and the profile cutter. Just as before, the thickness of the tongue is increased and profile cutter is also raised off the router table by 3 X .020". But if 3 shims below the slot cutter are removed, the overall height of the stack is reduced by .060". This returns the profile cutter to the position where it will continue to fit snuggly against the stile profile. The added 060" distance between the slot cutter and profile cutter is maintained. The slot cutter is lowered by .060", which allows the tongue to set a little lower than before while the profiles maintain the snug fit.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

*Edit: Looks like you got two other long replies while i was crafting mine but I will leave it in case there is something useful. My most useful advice might be the last sentence*

I'll start by saying again that I don't have one of these but here is the my theory based upon the design of this bit set.

One thing that occurs to me is that it matters whether you put the shim on the top or the bottom of the bearing. Did you play around with that? When cutting the stile, it seems to me that the shims should only go between the slot and cove cutters to make adjustments. When cutting the rail ends, putting the shim between the bearing and the cove cutter increases the inside shoulder of the "cove slot" (for lack of a better term?) and between the bearing and the slot cutter decreases it (the net thickness of shims is what is required to get the thickness of the tongue to match the grove in the stile).

What really matters regarding the width of the slot cutter is the *actual *width of the slot it cuts in the stile. You have to adjust shims when cutting the ends of the rail so that the tongue is the same width as the groove it cuts in the stile. Thats because with the carbide tips not be the same width it is possilbe they might also not attached at the same level. Hopefully, you are able to shim the bearing for cutting the rail so that the distance from the top of the slot cutter to the bottom of the cove cutter (marked by the red lines in this pic) is the same as the width the slot cutter actually cuts








If you cannot get those cutting edge corners to match, there is no reason to proceed with the cut. Make sure you use the highest slot cutter tooth and the lowest cove cutter tooth (who knows, different size edges on the cove teeth could be another source of error?)

So if you cut the ends of the rails first and use it to line up the slot cutter with the tongue of the rail (with this bit set you obviously have to invert the rail from the way it was cut to do this), the inner edges of the rail have to lineup with the inner edges of the bit (red circles), this time using the lowest tooth on the slot cutter and highest tooth on the cove cutter. If without shims, you cannot get them close enough, it could be that you should have put (more of?) the shims between the slot cutter and the bearing when cutting the rails.










With all of these variables, you can see why you are having so much trouble with this, not to mention why so many prefer a 2-bit matched set. Frankly, if you can get your money back, I would do that and buy one of those.


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## mandatory66 (Jul 26, 2012)

Infinity coping sled keeps everything locked down & stable. Once you have the bits set right,some trial & error and you will have perfect fit & the sled does not get eaten by the bit. A little expensive but will make your day.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> Your measurements indicate the router is not 90 Degrees to the table. And bit off 90 degrees swings the cutter out of plane and does exactly what you have there.. a narrow tongue and a wide groove.
> 
> If the slot cutter is .252 the groove has to be within a couple thousands, unless the shaft is bent, or the router is off 90 degrees.
> 
> - jar944


JBar944. I think that it is more likely that the carbide teeth on the slot cutter are not all at the same height (in addition to the one tooth that is smaller than the others) so the distance between the highest edge and the lowest edge equals the .285 slot width that results. If that is the case, I would say this is more evidence that the set is defective and should just be returned.

This could be tested, I suppose, by adjusting the fence so that the board hits the bit at a different angle to see if you get a different result with same bit setup and height.


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## jar944 (Jun 19, 2014)

> JBar944. I think that it is more likely that the carbide teeth on the slot cutter are not all at the same height (in addition to the one tooth that is smaller than the others) so the distance between the highest edge and the lowest edge equals the .285 slot width that results. If that is the case, I would say this is more evidence that the set is defective and should just be returned.
> 
> This could be tested, I suppose, by adjusting the fence so that the board hits the bit at a different angle to see if you get a different result with same bit setup and height.
> 
> - Lazyman


If the teeth are offset by that much, the bit is defective and should be returned. .030" over sized would not work well for a plywood flat panel.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

The above covers the possible issues pretty thoroughly. I'll just add one thing…

I'm wondering if your router mount is rigid enough to make cuts this precisely. The lexan in the OP appears to be 1/4" which isn't very beefy. If you used the same material when you re-made it, you could be getting flex in the plate itself. This would have the same affect as the router not being perpendicular to the table just that you may not notice because it may be square when it's at rest and not under load. Try grabbing the bit and pulling it and see if your plate flexes or the bit moves. If there's any "slop" in the alignment or rigidity, you're probably never going to get consistently good, repeatable results.

Just my $.02, I wish you the best of luck!


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

One question to ask is how much money should go into matching bit sets, routers and other accessories to build cabinet doors? It is possible to buy high quality, unfinished (but sanded) cabinet doors for roughly $15 per square foot from a company like Walzcraft. The average woodworker will have to fork over $5-$7 per square foot in materials to make a door in-house plus related tooling costs.

Building doors on budget tools is a very time-consuming process.

To reinforce what Hokieken is saying…

If you really want to do the doors yourself, start from the ground up. The fact that your router plate broke is an indication of a weak foundation. That router needs to have a tight spindle and it needs to be mounted solidly to the table at a perfect 90 degree orientation. The router table needs to be dead flat otherwise boards will move up and down as they are passed through the cut. The fence must be flat and be clamped firmly in place with no flex or movement. Only then will feather boards be useful.

Router bit sets for doors require some hefty cutting so your machine need to be solid. What's holding that Lexan plate down to the table? It looks like it will vibrate up and down during a heavy cut and mess up the profiles.

Once you're positive the equipment is not the issue, then it's time to resume doing test cuts.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> One question to ask is how much money should go into matching bit sets, routers and other accessories to build cabinet doors? It is possible to buy high quality, unfinished (but sanded) cabinet doors for roughly $15 per square foot from a company like Walzcraft. The average woodworker will have to fork over $5 per square foot in materials to make a door in-house plus related tooling costs.
> 
> Building doors on budget tools is a very time-consuming process.
> ...
> - JAAune


JAAune, Sometimes its about journey not the destination. Ha, that's why it's called Lumberjocks and not Shoppingjocks. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

SoCalWoodGal, HokieKen and JAAune make a good point. If the router plate flexes due to vibration or stress, you might expect exactly the variability you are seeing. if you can flex the mounting plate by hand (while it's not running of course), that can be another source of error. I would double check the squareness as Jar944 suggested by chucking a 1/4" drill bit into the router (make sure it is straight first by rolling the bit on a flat surface) and sitting a square next to it on 2 or 3 sides. Then try flexing the router by pressing against the router body in different directions or even applying downward pressure on one side the mounting plate. If you can see the tip of the drill bit move at all relative to the square, your mounting plate probably needs beefing up. Note that the square has to be on the table not the mounting plate for the flex test so you might have to use a board to bridge across the plate if your square isn't large enought.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I hate routers and router tables.I use a basic set up only as a last resort.Or if I don't mind see my work being destroyed by the whirling high speed cutter.I think the op should find a differant joint or maybe someone can send her a proven bit set that works.
For god sake does anyone really believe they can figure it out from a thousand miles away.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> For god sake does anyone really believe they can figure it out from a thousand miles away.
> 
> - Aj2


Definitely not. But I'm 2k miles away from CA so I should be able to. ;P


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

> I think 2k is the cut off point for Esp.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

Seems a waste of time to troubleshoot a marginal router bit. Take it out of the router, walk to the trash can, and toss it in. Then order a two piece set from Grizzly. Set it up on scrap wood till you get it right. Save those scraps for future setups. Make doors easily from then on. That's the way I do it, and have done it for years. With the set-up pieces, I can be in action, and with great accuracy, very quickly.

I truly hate having to spend quality time (workshop time) dealing with frustrating issues like that router bit. And if you ever get the darn thing set up and working, what happens the next time you want to use that bit? I'd dread making doors.

Replace that bit.


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

Thanks again, everyone for chiming in. I checked the plate and there isn't any flex. Seems to be pretty solid. After trying every possible variation and adding feather boards in, I finally threw in the towel and purchased a two bit set from Rockler and their set up jig piece. Fingers crossed this will solve the problem. 
I know that the tendency is to throw money at a problem, but a poor carpenter blames her tools. So I try every possible avenue first to make sure it's not my own inability that is stunting my progress. I feel as though I did so in this situation. Now, if this new bit doesn't work out, it's back to the drawing board. Thank you again everyone, I'll post my results when the bit gets in.


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## Nubsnstubs (Aug 30, 2013)

Smart move. Are you going to show the results from the new bits?

One thing I did with mine just above the collet I engraved on the shank which bit made the rails, and the other stiles. I use two porter cable routers with two locations on the same table. Also made two different fences with feathers and dust collection. It takes about 10 minutes and I'm making stiles and rails. Both your bits should set up with the face of the parts down on the table surface….......... Good luck…. Jerry (in Tucson)


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

IMO you're doing the right thing. I was suspect on the bit set right from the start.

I will reiterate my preference for Whiteside bits. If you ever get the chance try one the are the best bits out there.
I used a one piece WS rail/stile bit for an big hickory kitchen. I was very concerned the bit would hold up in such hard wood.

The cuts were as good on the last board as the first.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I hope Woodgal's new bit set does the job. Just want to mention that Grizzly also has one-piece stile and rail bits. All you have to do is crank the bit up or down for the appropriate cut. Haven't used them, so I can't judge how good they are. I have used their re-configurable stacked bits successfully. Beyond the usual fiddling at set up time, I didn't suffer any of the issues the OP is having.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

I bought a CMT three piece raised panel cabinet door cutter set from Sommerfield Tools several years back and have made many doors and other projects of all different varieties with it. It is a great set but it will only take you so far unless you mill your stock straight and flat and to a uniform thickness first. You also need a router table that is dead flat, with a straight fence with a some sort of zero clearance inserts etc. to prevent tear out, while backing up your cuts with a follower piece of scrap; and a variable speed router motor beefy enough to spin these wood hogging bits (think 3 1/4 hp). Whiteside, Freud, Eagle America and CMT make good sets just to name a few with panel raising bits ( get one with a backcutter if possible) and coping and profile cutters. Most of these sets come ready to cut with no need to add shims, if set up right. Cabinet doors can be relatively easy to make, but you have to be ready to have the right equipment to prep your stock and do the actual cutting. *There are no short cuts.* Once you make a door through trial and error, keep sample cut stock for future setups, it will get you there a whole lot faster after that. A real luxury is having two router tables so that you can cut all cope and stick profiles at the same time. When you get done, you will be amazed at what you have accomplished if done right. But like with all other projects, the results you will get out depend on how hard you are willing to work for it, using the right tools for the job. Hey! if it were easy, everybody would be a woodworker.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Some very good advice given -I have made many a bad one before doing the following

1. Use a good router bit set….I use Whiteside

2. Mill all of your stock to the exact same thickness

3. Use a jig to securely hold stock so you get repeatable cuts.

4. When doing the ends, build a solid jig with solid hold downs.

5. Take your time doing the set up as small changes make the difference between a great joint and a bad one.

6. Use a good router table and plate to avoid any movement.

Good Luck


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

With the very common ability nowadays to mill our own stock to 5/8", I see no reason to use a back cutter on the panel-unless you like the look. Typically, the old time factory doors panels were 5/8". Why would we want to work with 3/4" stock when we don't have to? I haven't used a panel cutter with a back cutter on it, but it's not hard to imagine that the added level of complication would lead to screw ups from time to time. You can't work your way to the finished cut by raising the bit, but would have to approach it by moving the fence laterally (I mean front to back), which of course could be done.

Maybe there's something here I'm not seeing. Someone enlighten me, please.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

The back cutter actually simplifies joinery. Without it, one has to be absolutely certain that the 5/8" panels are exactly 5/8" thick otherwise they may not fit perfectly into the matching groove. By cutting from the front and the back, any variation of thickness is rendered a non-issue. An 11/16" thick panel will fit just as well as a 13/16" panel so long as some material is removed from both faces.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

You don't have to use a back cutter bit. It is your choice. I prefer one as my choice, and recommend it as my opinion. This forum and woodworking in general is about choices and advice and recommendations. I prefer not to spend the extra time milling door panels to 5/8", when there is a perfectly easy method available to avoid doing so. Others may choose to do so. If you do, knock yourself out. Have fun and work safely!


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## Jbower500 (Aug 29, 2008)

Hold downs and feather boards are very important for this operation to be registered correctly. Because the boards are placed face down the overage should be on the back of the boards not the face. Downward pressure plus pressure toward the fence along the full length of each board is most important.


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

I'm sure you were all waiting with bated breath, : ) so drumroll please:

The new bits did do a tighter joint. Still not perfect, but tight enough. 









This was a 2 bit system, so there was no shimming involved. I did buy the set up jig piece to eliminate any self-error on the part of settings. 



























With the tighter gap, my panel wasn't flush to the inside so I had to shave down the edges in order to make the rails and stiles come together. But it worked. All is painted, assembled, and best of all, finally installed in the kitchen. Now, onto the next! Thank you everyone for all your help! Glad to be a part of this community!




























Oh yes, this cabinet will now be the coffee station, with all the syrups in the pull out! I love it!


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

> I know that the tendency is to throw money at a problem, but a poor carpenter blames her tools.
> 
> - SoCalWoodGal


An old saying in the finish carpentry trades goes "A little putty, a little paint, makes a carpenter what he aint" 

Glad it worked out with the new set, the more you use them the more you'll get it figured out.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Nice work SoCal, came out very nice! Now if we can just teach you what coffee's supposed to taste like… ;P


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

haha! Oh, I know, believe me, I know:









This is what is on the counter above the syrups. Those are for cappuccino's and specialty drinks. : )


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

That cabinet of your turned out really nice. I'm certain that your next project will be even better and more to your satisfaction. It's all part of the learning curve. Keep fighting the good fight.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Happy Happy.

Glad you got if figured out.

Very nice work, too!!


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks good.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Nice work SoCal, came out very nice! Now if we can just teach you what coffee s supposed to taste like… ;P
> 
> - HokieKen


Burn…


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

The money that they paid for that coffe rig would get a whole bunch of toys. Almost bought it myself when it was on sale but could not justify it.

You did a great job on the cabinet.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

SoCalWoodGal,

The coffee cabinet looks really good! The finish is impeccable. I really like the multi-stepped treatment on the slide-out shelf panel, a detail you probably could not find of the store bought stuff.

The gap I observed in the photo of the coped rail and stile joint is typical, and tends to close a little when clamping pressure is applied. My understanding is that the gap in the joinery is intended as a space for glue. I am not sure I buy that explanation.

I was confused by the statement

...With the tighter gap, my panel wasn't flush to the inside so I had to shave down the edges in order to make the rails and stiles come together…

If this refers to the faces where the rail and stile joint comes together, where the face of the rail or stile is proud of the other face, this is typical. This problem is a function of the thickness of the rail and stile stock and the care with which the cope and stick bit heights were set. In my experience, when all is perfect even after several test cuts, some flushing up the joints is always needed.

On the other hand, if the coped end was a hair long, perhaps the bearing on the long rail and stile cut was not fully engaged, making the cut slightly shallow. Also if the bearing on the coped cut was not fully engaged, the coped cut could be too shallow. A coping sled with clamps to hold the stock during the cope cut can help.

In any event, you produced a great looking project with the typical amount of aggravation. An thanks for the update.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

> haha! Oh, I know, believe me, I know:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG I love you

The syrups are an even greater abomination now. ;P


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> The money that they paid for that coffe rig would get a whole bunch of toys. Almost bought it myself when it was on sale but could not justify it.
> 
> You did a great job on the cabinet.
> 
> - dbray45


Right? These superautomatics are outrageous. But each morning (ok, and afternoon and evening) my palate says thank you, it was worth it! My suggestions:
1. Get it refurbished. It's half the price.
2. Have a bunch of money on your credit card rewards to redeem.
3. Book an enormous acting gig that pays you a silly amount of money.
Worked for me : )


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## SoCalWoodGal (May 22, 2016)

> The coffee cabinet looks really good! The finish is impeccable. I really like the multi-stepped treatment on the slide-out shelf panel, a detail you probably could not find of the store bought stuff.


What does multi-stepped treatment mean?



> The gap I observed in the photo of the coped rail and stile joint is typical, and tends to close a little when clamping pressure is applied. My understanding is that the gap in the joinery is intended as a space for glue. I am not sure I buy that explanation.


Me either. I suppose I was really wanting a nice tight joint that held on its own, but was made even stronger with glue. 


> I was confused by the statement
> 
> ...With the tighter gap, my panel wasn't flush to the inside so I had to shave down the edges in order to make the rails and stiles come together…


The tongue cut on the panel thickened up after painting and the gap on the rail and stile was thinner than the old bit, which was what I measured the panel with originally when I cut it, and wouldn't allow the panel to rest the full depth of the gap in the rail and stile. So I sanded down the tongue on the panel to make it fit. Hope that made sense.

Thanks everyone! I'm enjoying it so far and have started on the wine cabinet/cookbook shelf wall cabinet.


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