# Jointer/Planer combo machine.



## Dadinthegarage (Apr 17, 2021)

Good Morning,

This is a question, if I am posting in an inappropriate section, please let me know and I will repost appropriately.

I started woodworking few years ago and mostly bought used tools to see if this was something I would enjoy… and I LOVE IT! I think it is time to upgrade..

Currently, I have a dewalt 12" (734) planer and Inca 343.190 (second owner) 10" J/P combo and I am thinking of an upgrade. It makes sense to me to buy the widest I can afford… go big or go home right?!

My shop is in a two car garage and so space is a bit limited. I would be able to make space by selling off the the planer and J/p for the new machine. I have come across three brands of 16" J/P combo, and have looked into the specs. Things that I am looking at is the HP, spiral cuter head, table length, you know the important stuff. My issue is that I am not too familiar with the brands, so I'm looking for some advice from those of you who are well versed or experienced than I am to give me an idea of which one would be a good choice. Thank you in advance!

1. Scorpion CWI - 16JP1604HC 16" J/P : 4 HP motor, ~65" long bed. I don't see that the beds can be extended. Cheapest @ ~ 5000 USD

2. Minimax 16" J/P FS41CX : Longer bed at ~70". I have heard of this brand, but I don't see if the beds are extendible, no optional accessories @ ~ 7000 USD

3. Hammer A3 - 41 16" : I feel like this is a grown up toy!!! It has a mortiser attachment (I thought the Minimax has that option, but I don't see that for the above model) and bed extensions. I'll have to give up my first born, but it is hard not to purchase one of the options just because. Base price is ~ 7000 USD, I'm sure the options will add to it.

I would really appreciate thoughts on this. If you have something else to consider, please mention that as well. Thanks again!

Dad


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I use the bed extension on my Knapp JP. That's all I can say other than it's the same size as you're looking at.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Wood and Shop of all places has a nice You Tube video on a 16" Hammer model they recently Purchased. It looks kind of funny in the middle of several handmade Moravian workbenches.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

I've been really satisfied with my 12" jet. It has the helical head and is on a mobile base. That's a must have in a small garage workspace.


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## Dadinthegarage (Apr 17, 2021)

I saw that. All the reviews are pretty much the same. I was looking at the manual of the Hammer 16" and it says the operating temperature is between 10 degrees C to 40 C, which translates to 50 F to about 110 F or so. I live in Minnesota, and my garage is not as heated as I would like. There is no way I would be able to use the machine for half the year if that is the case. I have not seen such temperature limitations with my other machines.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Is there a gearbox on that machine? Maybe the lube can be changed to one with a lower temp rating or a wider range?


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

That is on the warm side (50 F) for some shops. Even if you have heat turned up when you need it, it would take hours to warm up all that steel. I wonder if it throws off some of the settings from matching the display or as stated above its a lube issue. Good catch though, I would have bought and wondered "what's wrong" after the fact.


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

Hi, Dad. I was in your shoes about 8 years ago. I had an Inca 570 10 1/4" Jointer/Planer that I had owned for years. It was a great little machine and I built a lot of furniture with it. But it was a little under-powered and the feed was getting starting to give me trouble. I had the opportunity to buy a slightly used Hammer A3-31 12" J/P for a great price. I jumped on it and it has been one of the best machine buys I've made. The Hammer is a very powerful machine and does a great job. Mine is the older straight-knife model. I would love to have the spiral cutter block, but I'm sticking with what I've got. Mine has the dial indicator accessory for the planer handwheel. If you decide to go with the Hammer, I highly recommend this accessory. It makes repeatable thicknessing a breeze. The shorter infeed and outfeed tables are not really a problem. I got used to them with the little Inca, and the Hammer, as short as it is, is a good step up from the Inca. Hammer's detachable table extensions are a big help. I have one that I leave attached to the planer outfeed bracket beneath the jointer table where it is out-of the way. I can easily move it to extend the jointer table when I need the extra length. A 16" machine would be nice, but a) I don't have room for one, and b) I haven't run into much that my 12" machine can't handle, so I don't think I could justify the significant additional expense for 4 more inches of capacity. I am not familiar with the two other machines you mentioned, but I can vouch for the Hammer. It is a fine machine.


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## Dadinthegarage (Apr 17, 2021)

Thank you for that detailed reply MPython!

I was reading the manual I found online and interestingly I saw that the operating temperature for the machine is 10 - 40 Celsius? That will be a deal breaker for me since I live in Minnesota and my makeshift garage workshop is much to be desired for as far as temperature regulation goes.

Curious to know what your setup is and if you've run into temperature issues.

Thanks again!


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

> Thank you for that detailed reply MPython!
> ....
> 
> Curious to know what your setup is and if you ve run into temperature issues.
> ...


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## mdhills (Mar 12, 2011)

This review captures some of the pain of a J/P, but he does finish with liking it overall:





Note that he kept his lunchbox planer so that he wasn't dependent on switching configurations every time he needed planing, unless he needed the extra width.

Matt


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

I probably need to wait an hour or so before I respond to the video "review" cited by mdhills above, but I'll dive right in. Some people look for things to complain about. The reviewer is obviously one of those people. His complaint about the height adjustment locking mechanism is trivial. Most high quality planers, whether they are combo machines or stand alone ones, have the capability to lock the planer bed. It secures the the adjustment against creep to guarantee a consistent thickness. Yes, it's an extra step, but the time it takes to perform it is trivial. My Hammer A3 31 has the same mechanism. I don't bother to lock the bed except on the final pass. I do it as a precaution because in the 8 years I've had my machine I don't recall the adjustment slipping, even when unlocked. I seldom have issues with snipe. If I do, the snipe is eliminated on the final finishing pass. Change-over from the jointing function to the planer function is an issue inherent in combination machines. If you are irritated by the need to change the configuration of the machine between operations, don't buy a combination jointer planer. Complaining about it is silly. Yes, it's a bother, but the time to change my Hammer A3 31 from one configuration to the other is about a minute and a half - a small price to pay for the capability to efficiently dress and dimension 12" rough-sawn stock in my small workshop. His issue with the clearance required at the back of the machine for the blade guard may be critical in his small space, but he, admittedly, should have researched that before he shelled out 8 Grand for the machine. His biggest complaint is that his jointer beds were not coplanar, a problem he caused himself because he didn't read the operator's manual. I agree with him that the process of adjusting the beds back into coplanarity is fiddly, but so is the process of adjusting every other woodworking machine I've ever worked on. All in all, I found it tedious to listen to this guy's whining. Hammer makes a world class machine. Their jointer/planers are among the best I've ever had the pleasure to use and I'm proud to own one. 
End of rant.


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## MagicalMichael (Dec 26, 2016)

I have similar but more specific questions about the Scorpion 12" jointer/planer. I see that this machine has five rows of cutters with 60 all told but a very fast feed rate of 23 ft/min. The jet on the other hand has a four row set up with 56 cutters and a much slower 12 ft/min. Neither set of specs gives anything like cuts/min which might help to understand how I might expect each tp perform, especially on wild grain. The slower feed rate should be a big advantage, but maybe not.

Second, nobody talks about dust collection. I currently have a Jet HH 8" jointer and it does a poor job on dust collection, especially throwing out a lot of dust through the motor pulley hole in the back. That maybe inevitable with a dovetail design but not with a parrallegram

I would appreciate learning about others experience with cut quality and dust collection on these machines.

Michael


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Michael, I have a Scorpion 12" and cut quality IMHO is fantastic, dust collection is fine as in really no dust but in the planner mode there is some chips left on the bed if the stock is not that wide? Machine is okay for hobby use but can be bogged down if you take too big of a bite! You can disengage the auto feed and push through manually if desired, have never attempted this yet.
By the way I am using a 1.5 hp general D.C. run through a Veritas cyclone separator pulling about 1200 cfm at the machine.


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## MagicalMichael (Dec 26, 2016)

Thanks Andre, that's helpful.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that's truly the case, it is also over priced.

DitG - I can't see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain't gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you're resawing your own wood that's very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

Never heard of Scorpion, and *I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer*. If that's truly the case, it is also over priced

Correct and most likely true, but at less than half the cost it completes the same job to a standard that is acceptable to me and within my Pay Scale!


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

DOsen't look to be half the price to me? Look to be about $2k less or just under 30%.

Which is overpiriced (to me at least) given its provenance.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that s truly the case, it is also over priced.
> 
> DitG - I can t see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain t gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.
> 
> - xedos


I have a 16-inch jointer/planer for 20 years now. If I ever need a new one I'm going for the 20 inch.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

> Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that s truly the case, it is also over priced.
> 
> DitG - I can t see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain t gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.
> 
> ...


are you working in a two car garage and with a limited/modest budget ?


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## MagicalMichael (Dec 26, 2016)

The Scorpion reviews on line & Youtube are quite positive. I am interested in the 12' version and for what it's worth Jet & Ricon are also made in Asia, along with the lower end Hammer. It runs about $400 less than Jet and shipping is much less too. my biggest concern is moving a 465lb machine off of the pallet. How have others accomplished this/

FWIW I think this machine will do a better job of dust collection than my Jet 8' Jointer and make consideably less noise than my dewalt thickness planer.

Michael


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that s truly the case, it is also over priced.
> 
> DitG - I can t see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain t gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.
> 
> ...


Actually I was speaking of the practically of a 16 over 12 and nothing to do with space or cost. Of course as always it depends on what you build too. When I make cabinet door panels I prep the stock oversize. I then glue up the panels to the width need plus a bit for trimming and squaring. When I glue up the panels I get edges close as I can, but I don't waste time with calls, biscuit or anything for alignment. 
When the panels are dry I face joint them ( up to 16 wide) and run them through the planer. I get perfectly flat glued up panels, don't have to mess around with miss-aligned panels I see many speak of. 
For me a 16 or 20 inches wide Jointer/planer is very practical. There is no rule that says you can't glue 2or 3 board together and them face joint them and run them though the planer.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

> Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that s truly the case, it is also over priced.
> 
> DitG - I can t see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain t gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.
> 
> ...


Sure, but the OP started this thread with :

"My shop is in a two car garage and so space is a bit limited. I would be able to make space by selling off the the planer and J/p for the new machine."

plus - an implied budget of 5-$8k

Your comments , while valid don't really sync in terms of the op's space or budget. Esecially when talking about 20" models.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Never heard of Scorpion, and I suspect it is made in Asia, and is no where near the same quality or precesion of SCMI or Hammer. If that s truly the case, it is also over priced.
> 
> DitG - I can t see this endeavour saving you any space at the end of the day. Better machine with more capacity ? Absolutely, but it ain t gonna give you more room in your garage. 16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.
> 
> ...


Again, I am addressing your statement. Not anything to do with space or cost. 
*
16" is nice, but how many times have you needed or wanted more than your current 10" ? Unless you re resawing your own wood that s very large, I cannot see any practical advantage to a 16" over a 12" when buying wood locally at retail.*

I find it practical. I use the 16 with all the time and I don't think there are any 16 inch boards in Alaska.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

My question was directed to Dad who has limited space. I couldn't care less about your needs and preferences in a large setup or door making operation.

I doubt he does either.

Not saying your opinions aren't valid, but that they aren't really apropos to the original question.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> My question was directed to Dad who has limited space. I couldn't care less about your needs and preferences in a large setup or door making operation.
> 
> I doubt he does either.
> 
> ...


Let him speak for himself. All I'm doing is pointing out some Practical advantage of wide jointers. He and he alone has to decide what works for his work, budget and room. More information is better that less.


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## Dadinthegarage (Apr 17, 2021)

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the feedback and input. I'm not sure if there is a set jointer width that would be standard. Find the biggest I can fit in my garage, better it is  Go big or go home right?!

Currently, I have a 10 1/4" Inca J/P which works great, but there have been times I wished I had something wider for a 12" board or so on. Based on my shop layout and space the current machines take, I think it will shave some space, but we'll have to see.

Honestly, I can't speak for the quality of one machine over the other. I see there are both good and bad reviews about every brand. I've come to realize that each brand has it's dedicated followers, so you just have do due diligence.

One thing I would add, and honestly I don't know how true it is. I asked the Hammer rep about the machine manual stating not to operate below certain temperature, she didn't really answer the question but said that it should be fine. I live in MN, so temperature in my shop can be an issue from time to time. That is the big reason why I am going with minimax. I asked the SCM rep about this and he said that Hammer uses a 3 phase motor and some phase converter to tone it down to one phase and they cut corners on that. Those motors can't work well in cold, and he explained something about the rating of the motor which the SCM was a better one. I mean, I don't know much about motors and all to say if he is accurate or not and this is coming from a competitor rep, so I would take it with a grain of salt.

Unfortunately, since everything is back ordered these days, I was told that if I ordered now, it won't come until November/December. I have a lukewarm garage and don't want to be putting the machine together in the frigid cold. So I'll wait until the end of the year to purchase one so it comes in the spring time, if by the year end I am still enthusiastic about buying one.

Apart from the operational issues of Hammer in the cold, the other reason I went with SCM is that a lot of accessories that are standard with the Minimax; the mobility base, cleaning supples, blades, etc. are something you have to purchase additionally with Hammer. I don't know, I think for a machine at that price, it should include everything, but that's just me.

Thank you all for chiming in!

Dad


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I had an Inca for a number of years before getting my current J/P. It's a nice, accurate machine with self setting knives. I got to a point I wanted longer beds and a bit more robust so sold it and with the Felder Ad 741. Which SCM are you looking at. I assume they have more than one model?

I do miss that Tersa head.


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