# Any measuring tools with tenths of an inch?



## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

As an engineer i spend my entire day in the world of thousandths of an inch. Now obviously word working isn't that exact but i prefer to work in my native units if possible. Do you guys know if any measuring tools can be bought with tenths of an inch markings like an engineer square? Google has not been my friend but i could not be using the proper terminology. Any ideas?


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

https://www.amazon.com/US-Tape-33-Foot-Engineer-10ths-Standard/dp/B0017JW7VS


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

You don't have some of these in your measuring tool arsenal already?

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/precision-rules-straight-edges-parallels/Precision-Rules#currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&itemsPerPage=24&sortBy=wp/asc

I have 4", 6", 12" and 24 " scales marked both ways, accumulated over the years.


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

As a retired cal lab operator, I have Starrett and Browne and Sharp.


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

I have all the usual tools needed as i have been into woodworking for about 2 years now but all of them are in fractional rule as anything locally I haven't been able to find in tenths. That tape looks good may have to pick that up.

I'd like a square of some kind over a scale for obvious reasons but I figured I'd ask before I just get a scale. I was just wondering if I'm not using the right terminology or something


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## dodahman (Jun 12, 2012)

5R graduations is what you may want….. 5R Graduations: 32nds, 64ths, 10ths, 100ths

http://www.victornet.com/detail/PER-12-5R.html


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Woodworking is an ancient art - most all stock is fractional dimensions. You have precision implications when converting back and forth. 5/16" tolererences to 1/32" while 0.3125" suggests 0.0001" - impossible in wood 0.31" doesn't obviously map to 5/16" and implies .010" tol.









Incra makes incredible rules:









Fractions make it easy to halve and double in your head - a common event in woodworking.

M


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

The problem i see is that the trade size of wood is nice and nominal but in reality its usually shorter. Im sure theres some big long explanation for that but it sure make making things as perfect as possible hard. On top of that is i do all my projects in CAD. I cannot freeball it, just dont have that in me. So i draw everything "perfect" so its nice to be able to then transfer that to the wood to get as close as possible and then tolerances arent as big a factor due to the natural properties of wood.

e.g. 3/4" plywood is actually around .70 so .05 doesn't sound like alot but multiply that by even 3 or 4 times and it adds up. How do traditional woodworkers compensate for that?

But that rule looks nice…


> Woodworking is an ancient art - most all stock is fractional dimensions. You have precision implications when converting back and forth. 5/16" tolererences to 1/32" while 0.3125" suggests 0.0001" - impossible in wood 0.31" doesn t obviously map to 5/16" and implies .010" tol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

Rules like you want are available, but I'll add that I've had an engineering degree for about four decades. I do woodwork in 16ths and 32nds, and can't even imagine doing wood projects in tenths.

Buy your tenth-graduated rules and scales, but since you are an engineer, I know you can learn to use the system of measurement that is most prevalent in your country.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Measurement is the enemy of precision. Putting that aside, I have tapes and rules in tenths.


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

Is there some magic trick that im not privy to? i just dont see how you can end up with something that is square when like in the example i mentioned above 3/4" plywood is actually ~.7. I can see doing it if wood was somewhat close to an actual fractional size but it usually isnt.

Like when im designing a machining part i start with a trade size that is damn near actual size so i can compensate for that. Im not trying to be difficult i just am struggling how to get accuracy while wood working.



> Rules like you want are available, but I ll add that I ve had an engineering degree for about four decades. I do woodwork in 16ths and 32nds, and can t even imagine doing wood projects in tenths.
> 
> Buy your tenth-graduated rules and scales, but since you are an engineer, I know you can learn to use the system of measurement that is most prevalent in your country.
> 
> - jimintx


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

Well, here is the magic, as I see it. And it's just an opinion but one based on empirical data and experience. One of the great things about this hobby is that you can tackle it almost any way you prefer. I can't understand it, but I read that folks in euros do woodwork using the metric system, even (gasp!).

I believe you have revealed part of the the answer to your query when you used that "~" symbol, which means the measurement is approximate.

I know that you will agree that doing work in 16ths and 32nds, and 64ths, is more precise than in 1/10ths.

After all, 45/64" is 0.703", or 22/32" is 0.688". 
Those thicknesses cover the ~0.7" figure, and really they are all the same to me when working in wood.

And you are certainly correct that this play, or slop, in measurement doesn't apply when machining parts out of metal or high performance resins.

There are plenty of digital devices that read out in thousandths, and if you go onto the web, start at Amazon, you can find your desired measuring devices. In less than 30 seconds I located this tape on Amazon:
Komelon 433IEHV High-Visibility Professional Tape Measure both Inch and Engineer Scale Printed 33-feet by 1-Inch, Chrome on Amazon._

Despite me joking above, you could give some thought to going all metric. Lots of rules and tapes available in that system.

And do investigate getting some of the measuring and marking tools from Woodpeckers, which are divine, and pretty, and also pricey.

One other thing that is part of my work processes, is that I just sort of go out and make some cuts and start building. Sometime I might do a rough sketch on a 1/4" quadrille tablet, to sort out what overlaps what, and so forth. I have not ever used any form of CAD, or Sketch Up or other software, and have almost never used any type of plans of cut-lists. You could say that while I got the degree and some decent jobs in the field thereafter, I am more artist than engineer at heart.
.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm not being a smart ass, but woodworking is not machining. All measurement systems are just an arbitrary way of communicating distance. Before the industrial revolution, parts were made one at a time to fit where they were needed and it didn't matter if they were identical. Woodworking predates the industrial revolution and doesn't depend on accuracy. Keep in mind that in woodworking, precision almost always trumps accuracy. So if you are making a dado, it doesn't matter what it is on a specific measurement scale, it only matters that the tongue fits. Similar, if you are making a table, it doesn't matter if the legs are 29", 29.1", 29-1/8", or 74cm; what matters is they are all the same. You might have a hard time with this coming from an engineering background but it's liberating when you embrace it.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*Rock M* is correct, about measurements. 
Now retired, I worked for over 45 years in engineering with mechanical switches, semiconductors, cell phone test systems, laser interferometers, DNA micro-arrays and, through all those years I did woodworking. 
I used a lot of different measurements and worked through the time some U.S. companies moved to the metric system when all prints had to be dual dimensioned.

I use fractional inch, decimal inch, mm, cm, and even architectural rulers (like that shown below), it all depends on what I am doing!

*Just don't change horses, or rulers for that matter, in midstream!*










These are helpful in making scale models of projects.


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## Sarit (Oct 21, 2009)

I usually just configure the CAD software to work in fractions with the precision you desire. I've switched from sketchup to fusion360 (free-ish for inventors) and its more precise and handles displaying in fractional units.

Easier to change the software than the hardware.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

> Measurement is the enemy of precision.
> 
> - Rick M


+1… in spades! But, for some, that concept is heresy.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Just go Metric it's coming anyway.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I posted these pictures of this guitar I built, since I wanted to emphasize the way woodworking measurements can work.
I put planks of maple and walnut on top of each other, taped together with a few strips of doubleback sticky tape.
I ran then through my bandsaw, putting in random cuts that weaved back and forth.
I then reversed every other board, so I came up with a dark/light/dark rotation.
Then, with the raw bandsaw blade cuts, glued them all up to form the two boards that formed the front and back of this guitar. Then I cut the planks in two inch wide strips, to further muddle the pattern. The front is the mirror image of the back, since it was the other board that was created when I flipped every other board.
No measurements, no way to sand the cuts, and if you look closely, there are no gaps in the glueup.
The guitar is currently owned by a man in Colorado.
This demonstrates how wood is way more forgiving than most other mediums that you might want to attach to each other.
I think in terms no tighter than 1/2MM when I measure, or about 18 thousandths of an inch. I can't sharpen my pencil much tighter than that, and my thinnest bandsaw blade is .025, so anything tighter is essentially not worth my time.
This is also why I am not a metalworker…


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Another engineer here. And a machinist prior to getting my degree. The mental shift from designing and making parts in a precision CNC production shop to working with wood in my home shop took a while too ;-p

First, to your question, you probably want to buy scales and combination squares in 3R or 5R increments. Both have 1/10 scales. 3R has 50ths and 5R has 100ths. That being said, I prefer 4R. I work in 1/32" almost all the time with my woodworking. Although there is still always a caliper handy when my brain just won't let it go 

Rick is right though, you're not working for interchangeability of parts typically. So, measurements become secondary to fitting parts to one another.


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

I will try to answer everyone, but first id like to say thanks for all the responses. This group is 100x more responsive that most of the other forums i have been on.

@jimintx I have had the slightest thought of using the metric system as is basically accomplishes the same end result i am looking for by using tenths of an inch. I feel ultimately it would cause more problems than it would solve not only with availability metric marked tools to the fact wood is indeed created in the imperial system.

Yes i see how technically speaking fractional indicators are more precise down to their markings than tenths of an inch is, but the advantage of tenths is when you need a measurement like .33 where then you just mentally split that tenth into 3rds and thats exact enough for even myself.

I applaud you in earnest sir for being able to just go at it "blind" and end up with something thats functional and aesthetically pleasing. unfortunately i have not been given that ability so i need to be able to see it before i even go buy wood. Thats the difference between artist and engineer is that you are using dimensions as a guide to get a finished product vs i use a finished product as a guide to get the dimensions.

@Rick M Very true sir, woodworking is basically what the Native Americans were doing before Columbus was even thought of. But the difference between then and now is we have these nice automated machines that are able to cut to near exacting standards so i dont think it should be as inaccurate as it was in olden days. I understand the "if it works, it works" mentality but like you said its just not the mentality of an engineering background.

@oldnovice For sure i used those a bunch back in college in my hand drawing classes…

@Sarit i have solidworks which is a legit CAD program so i can do almost anything i want, i tried switching units and working in feet and inch but again its just not as intuitive as tenths of a inch. Maybe i just have to try a little harder.

@Tennessee Now that is art, very nice. That is something that lends itself to the imperfect properties of wood. I dont really do anything like that, mostly because i cant. I guess i should have maybe said what kind of projects i usually make to show what context i am thinking of. I have made things like entertainment centers, dvd racks, workbenches, etc. Thats the kind of things where exacting standards are needed.

@HokieKen So youve felt my pain…

I dont want this to sound like im knocking an entire industry as im sure most of you guys have forgotten more about woodworking than i have or may ever learn about woodworking. Its just coming from someone who thoroughly enjoys woodworking…except when something doesnt go together nice and straight.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm also an engineer. I get what you're trying to go after, but you're going at it the opposite way.

Honestly, throw away your measurements. Use one tape measure in the beginning (and make sure you keep the same tape throughout the project) and only use it for rough initial dimensions. After that, forget about measurements. Make batch cuts for all pieces that need to be the same. Fit all pieces to each other rather than a measurement. Use a marking knife instead of a pencil. Mark which edges go against the fence for each board. Use featherboards to hold everything tight to the fence. Your work will drastically improve in fit and finish.

Measurements are arbitrary. It's not machining. Sure you can drop a lot of money on an incra fence, rules that measure down to 1/100th, squares that are hyper accurate, etc. but it's faster, more accurate, and way cheaper to do what I describe above. To check for square, just measure diagonals. Have a shooting board with a plane set up to dead nuts square and shoot every square angle (table saw sled works as well, but isn't quite as precise.


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

Interesting, i may look into making a shooting board…



> I m also an engineer. I get what you re trying to go after, but you re going at it the opposite way.
> 
> Honestly, throw away your measurements. Use one tape measure in the beginning (and make sure you keep the same tape throughout the project) and only use it for rough initial dimensions. After that, forget about measurements. Make batch cuts for all pieces that need to be the same. Fit all pieces to each other rather than a measurement. Use a marking knife instead of a pencil. Mark which edges go against the fence for each board. Use featherboards to hold everything tight to the fence. Your work will drastically improve in fit and finish.
> 
> ...


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Measure with a micrometer.
Mark with chalk.
Cut with an axe.

M


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

I understand this point you made very well: Thats the difference between artist and engineer is that you are using dimensions as a guide to get a finished product vs i use a finished product as a guide to get the dimensions.

Not only do I understand it, I know other people like that, too. And, for the purpose of using the finished product as a guide, I don't think the precision of the measuring that takes place in the shop is important. To look at the screen and judge the aesthetics of the finished product isn't dependent on 2 or 3 significant figure decimal dimensions. To make it all go together, the precision and repeatability of the *cutting* does matter. That comes from practice in the shop, and developing skills and techniques to transfer whatever the measurement is to the material being worked. And to always cut on the correct side of the line.

The core of my comments really, and I think a few others are saying the same thing, is to say simply that no matter how precise and accurate you design on a screen and then measure in the shop, the cutting and milling of the wood material will not match super-precision, and will not be totally repeatable. We have all had to continuously learn methods, and tricks, to get it all to fit together much later in the project than during the initial design phase.

However, if your comfort level is to work within a high precision measuring concept, it certainly shouldn't hurt anything, and with a bit of on-line ordering you can be well equipped with machinist-level measuring devices, so carry on with what works for you.


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## simoncpj (Dec 30, 2016)

As another perfectionist starting out I can offer limited, but similar experience. I started thinking woodworking wasn't that exact, and ended up with a micrometer and feeler gauges because thousandths do matter in both machine setup and joinery. And then I began to learn that no matter how well you mark, cut, etc.,, an angle or joint still needs finishing (could be my current skill level) as wood is dynamic and what looks good to the ruler may not look good to the mating piece of wood.

What I believe now is setup, measuring, marking should be done as carefully and exactingly as I can. This is not because it will make everything go together perfectly, but because it will require less refining to get together well.


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

I appreciate the input sir, i will do some interneting and see if i can pick up any tips. i will keep on with fractions as it seems theres a method to the madness but damn if it doesnt make things a little more complicated when needing "odd" dimensions.



> I understand this point you made very well: Thats the difference between artist and engineer is that you are using dimensions as a guide to get a finished product vs i use a finished product as a guide to get the dimensions.
> 
> Not only do I understand it, I know other people like that, too. And, for the purpose of using the finished product as a guide, I don t think the precision of the measuring that takes place in the shop is important. To look at the screen and judge the aesthetics of the finished product isn t dependent on 2 or 3 significant figure decimal dimensions. To make it all go together, the precision and repeatability of the *cutting* does matter. That comes from practice in the shop, and developing skills and techniques to transfer whatever the measurement is to the material being worked. And to always cut on the correct side of the line.
> 
> ...


You bring up a valid point. Maybe i just have to resign to the fact that something going together with little to no refining is too much for the medium.



> As another perfectionist starting out I can offer limited, but similar experience. I started thinking woodworking wasn t that exact, and ended up with a micrometer and feeler gauges because thousandths do matter in both machine setup and joinery. And then I began to learn that no matter how well you mark, cut, etc.,, an angle or joint still needs finishing (could be my current skill level) as wood is dynamic and what looks good to the ruler may not look good to the mating piece of wood.
> 
> What I believe now is setup, measuring, marking should be done as carefully and exactingly as I can. This is not because it will make everything go together perfectly, but because it will require less refining to get together well.
> 
> - simoncpj


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Browse Instagram for examples of what is possible with "little to no refining." Start with the Fine Woodworking guys and branch out into people they follow.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

As said above, once you let go of measuring, and start using a marking knife and gauge, your joints will be more accurate and fit better and faster. Measuring accurately to high degrees is only needed if every part needs to be the same as in mass production. Of course, I'm thinking more hand tool work with planes and chisels, etc, and that may not appeal to you at all. I think the same thing applies in power tool work, but I'm not familiar with it.


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## Finegrain (May 8, 2015)

I don't think anyone said this yet but an old-fashioned engineer's folding wooden measuring stick has inches/imperial on one side and inches divided into 1/10 on the other side. They're used in civil engineering projects all the time when working with road grades. You can find them at any HD, Lowes, Menards, etc. That being said, though, it's easier to just use metric or get comfortable with fractions. I also have a tendency to want precision but as others already said, woodworking isn't the same as machining


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## PollyB (Aug 2, 2015)

May I suggest a touch of relativity:

https://lostartpress.com/collections/books/products/by-hand-eye-1

Wood is not a stable material; dimensions change. Relative measurement is effective measurement; digital precision is the path to split panels and failed joints.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

Let 'em use what he wants. For me realitive measurements are better, but what makes sense to him is good for him. I can't believe some of you want the correct or chastise him for using what he wants to use. Sheesh, so sad,


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

Ehh its fine, just like any advice, ill take it with a grain of salt. I really didnt mean for people to think i only want to use tenth of inch for every solution. It was more or less for those instances where a fraction isnt the best measurement. I really didnt mean to commit woodworking heresy.



> Let em use what he wants. For me realitive measurements are better, but what makes sense to him is good for him. I can t believe some of you want the correct or chastise him for using what he wants to use. Sheesh, so sad,
> 
> - RobS888


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I thought the replies were measured and sincere.


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## Jimintomahawak (Feb 5, 2017)

I just stop cutting when it fits… Tongue in cheek. I have tools in "tenths" fractional, metric and what the heck just happened it's too short. 
I tend to use decimal most of the time. Comes from working in metric for many years. My daughter is working fractions in school and I can't remember how to do it anymore…. working in 10's is way easier. Working in the metric world for 10 years trains the mind to visualize like we do in eighths, quarters and sixteenths…


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

> I thought the replies were measured and sincere.
> - Rick M


They have been. And I believe Ramm understood that and agrees.

Robb just tends to preach a little bit. For example:



> It s a sawstop, so it is worth it. Don t let your ignorance and prejudice influence you so much.
> - RobS888


.


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## Jimintomahawak (Feb 5, 2017)

What about measurements by hair color?


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## Rammstein1224 (Mar 13, 2017)

@jimintx Yea i get it, like i said its hard coming from my background of exacting dims to less than exact. I have no problem with fractions, i understand how it can be useful, i just need a little more research into exactly how to tackle those oddball instances that seem to happen more often than not.


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## higtron (Jan 26, 2011)

when doing surveying and elevation work in construction every measurement is referred in 1/10s 1/100s of an inch and the tape measures that are used are called engineers tape measures most carpenters have one of these and, a standard tape in they're kit of tools this is what your looking for I believe https://www.amazon.com/Lufkin-PHV1425D-Return-Engineers-25-Feet/dp/B009SKGFCK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1489601945&sr=8-3&keywords=engineers+tape+measure


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Where I work, we dim in fractional units with 1/16" resolution. So when we design (using Solid Works) we enter the decimal equivalents to four digits (i.e. 3/16 is keyed as .1875) to keep things matched up and avoid any round off surprises.

After working with them for a while, you just memorize these.

In my own shop, I have 4R rules that go down to 1/64, but I rarely rarely go beyond 1/32" resolution. Even then, given the limitations of my >50 eyes, I usually stick to the 1/16 scale and think in terms of "fat 1/16ths" or "skinny 1/8ths" and eyeball the finer increments)


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## ihadmail (Dec 29, 2016)

I have one thing to offer up to you for thought.

After getting parts cut perfectly square and to absolute perfect dimensions down to the tenth of an inch, they will still not fit down to the tenths of an inch if there is a delay in assembly.

Pieces I've milled to specific tolerances late in the evening were no longer the appropriate dimensions the next morning. A combination of change in temperature/humidity in my garage shop and the freshly exposed wood being more susceptible to absorption caused wood movement.

I design my items using CAD to exacting tolerances. I then use these designs as a way to calculate needed materials and devise a plan of attack for the project. All measurements/cuts are made in relative terms and on the fly to get to as close to intended as possible.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I thought the replies were measured and sincere.
> 
> - Rick M


Hah, I see what you did there pretty punny.


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## Allegrus (Dec 20, 2016)

Unless you have plans that are in 1/10th" ... why would you need a 1/10th" graduation on a ruler? Perhaps choosing a more appropriate system (metric) would serve you better .. and cost you less.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I have, sitting by my desk, a steel 12" ruler by Starrett. Marked in 10ths, 14ths, 16ths, and even 12ths. Haven't a clue as why all the different markings…....One small area is even marked as 50th of an inch. Let me know where to send it…


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

14ths? Can you post a picture, that sounds interesting.

I have a "shrink ruler" which are apparently common but it's a new thing to me. The internet tells me they were used for cast metal so you'd know the size after it cools and shrinks. It came in a box of random machinist tools.


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

Starrett's #1 graduations had like a bazillion different scales. Odd ones like 1/28, 1/14 etc. The only ones I've ever seen were used for laying out gear teeth. I've never cut gears so I don't recall the reasoning behind the odd scales, just that they were used for that.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Near as I can make out, the model number is..

No. C601

maybe see IF it is still available from Starrett?

Just checked,yes, they still sell this model…[email protected] $69.00 USD


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Apparently, Starrett also sells a 6" version.

The 12" version is now listed as a No. C601-12…..


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## KevinL (Sep 14, 2014)

Funny thing is that there is a lot of difference between a welders & woodwokers tenth and a machinist tenth.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

I am also an engineer, I work in aviation. You would be surprised how many aircraft parts are "match drilled" instead of drilled to precision plans so that parts actually fit together. I am talking parts that have been cut out with a very high precision machine, but like wood as aircraft stressed no two are alike when you are talking parts that support loads.

That said measurements are important because we buy things like drill bits, router bits, saw blades etc that are a certain measurement. It is a lot easier to do the math in your head when you are working with 0.05 vs 1/16

More often than not I only use plans for ideas and just start cutting wood the sizes I want to and figure out how to put it all together after I have everything cut up.


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## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

> I have, sitting by my desk, a steel 12" ruler by Starrett. Marked in 10ths, 14ths, 16ths, and even 12ths. Haven t a clue as why all the different markings…....One small area is even marked as 50th of an inch. Let me know where to send it…
> 
> - bandit571


Now that is a ruler, it can do: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6. 1/7, 1/8, 1/10
It is only missing 1/9, it needs another scale.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Some of those odd scales on the starret rule match up with some standard thread pitches. Other than that no idea what they are used for. Metal often comes in some weird thicknesses such as 0.063".


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

According to Starrett: "1 pattern has 12 different grads., many that are not found on usual rules. This allows the rule to be used for various purposes like laying out and cutting gear teeth (not generally used today)."

For reference, here are all of Starrett's graduation designations and the scales for each. Looks like there are several options for 1/10". Here is the document I got them from.


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