# Need your opinion on board widths



## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Hey everyone. I've been woodworking for about 8 years now, without pause. However this is my first post here. So, hello.

Over the last few years I've been asked and referred to so many people to make farm tables. I've mainly been working with 6/4 RQSWO. In an effort to save some money, and my back, I want to switch over to flat sawn 4/4 white oak for the tops. However, now I'm afraid to glue up flat sawn boards this wide!

Lumber info
A lot of the boards are roughly 9 to 10" wide. They are 12' long. Boards came to me nice and dry, and my shop is 35% humidity and 72 degrees and they've been sitting for 3 weeks. Skip planed thus far to 15/16". The skip plane pretty much took em right down, since they were real flat.

Project info
Table top will be 6' long by 36" wide. Home made table buttons fixing table top to aprons. Apron to leg is mortise and tenon.

So…Should I cut these boards in half to 4.5" each and flip every other? Or just glue em up at 9"?

Additional side note. Since it's 4/4, I'm considering making the top extra long and wide, and cutting 1.5" of all sides and flipping the cut off underneath and laminating to the permitter to make it appear as though it's 1.5" Thick top. Would doing this help stabilize wide boards from cupping? The way I see it, for example, if the top was going to cup up, the 1.5" strip I cut off from the ends and glue underneath it would want to crown (cup down), essentially opposing forces. Or is this crazy talk?

What would you do?


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Well you won't get a definitive answer. There a lot of people on both sides of the fence. I've always went with the best grain and color match. I never rip and flip. I wouldn't want a table that looked like a zebra stripes. JMHO


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Well, first of all, if I'd been woodworking for 8 years without pause, I'd take a break. Grab a bite to eat and get some sleep.

I agree with AlaskaGuy that a bunch of narrow strips might be a bit noisy looking, but it depends on the grain. I'd leave them wide personally. Neither way is right or wrong though.

One thing about a wide panel is that you'll hear most people say to alternate the growth rings. They read it somewhere or learned it in shop class, and indeed, I still see that in print quite often.

Think about it though, would you rather have one long arc if it bows, or a washboard? I follow Tage Frid's advice and orient all of the growth rings curving up (assuming it's flat sawn - ignore this if it's quarter or rift sawn). The idea is that the panel will bow up in the middle and can be pulled flat easily. It also puts the heartwood up top where you want it.

Here is Tage Frid's comment from the Spring 1976 issue of Fine Woodworking:

"Another thing most books tell you is to alternate the wood to compensate for the cupping caused by shrinkage. This would be fine if you wanted to design a washboard. But if you want to use your wood, for example, for a tabletop, it will take a lot of screws to hold it down, plus every second board will usually have a lot of sapwood, especially today with the shortage and high cost of wood, where every piece must be used. But, if we don't alternate the wood, it will work together and form an arch that will be very easy to hold down with a few screws. Also, we will have the center of the wood facing up, meaning less sapwood, better color, harder and usually fewer knots."










BTW, even with quartersawn wood, there is a right way and a wrong way to orient the boards:


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I forgot to add. It's perfectly OK to flip you photos.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

My personal experience is WO is very stable once dry. I glue up full sized boards like you have without any further warping. The edging idea seems like it could do no harm.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Always arrange the boards for the best look. I think your question about cutting off the ends and edges and flipping them over to beef up the top is a cosmetic move.
I'm my mind it will not add any stiffness or anti warping powers to the top.
It will most like add a small book match edge and possibly a witness line that will catch the eye. The corner where the end grain and long grain meet will be interesting and require skill.
If in fact that's what your thinking.
Not saying you should try never know where this type of thinking will lead us. Curiosity and unexpected surprises are a big boost for creativity.
Do keep all the grain flow in one direction. No cross grain 
Good luck


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

> .......So…Should I cut these boards in half to 4.5" each and flip every other? Or just glue em up at 9"?
> - HenryJames


Welcome to LJ!!! Yes absolutely cut them and flip every other board. When you say "flip" I think you mean to crown every other board. The people that brag about gluing up panels with wide boards are not going to be around when it warps or bows and the end user is saying "what now??" If the end user is you then ask them what they are going to do for you if it don't work…....generally the end of the conversation.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

I'd have no problem gluing them up as-is. They sound like they're very stable, and you've done everything right so far in terms of milling them.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> .......So…Should I cut these boards in half to 4.5" each and flip every other? Or just glue em up at 9"?
> - HenryJames
> 
> Welcome to LJ!!! Yes absolutely cut them and flip every other board. When you say "flip" I think you mean to crown every other board. The people that brag about gluing up panels with wide boards are not going to be around when it warps or bows and the end user is saying "what now??" If the end user is you then ask them what they are going to do for you if it don t work…....generally the end of the conversation.
> ...


So you know more than Tage Frid? I'm very impressed, considering he was one of the greatest furniture designers, builders and teachers of the 20th century. Maybe you could use one of your project posts as an example to prove your point. Oh wait, you don't have any.

Your "what are they going to do for you" comment is real cutesy, but if you get good advice and follow it accurately it'll never come to that. Of course, if they follow your bad advice, all bets are off. What are you going to do for them then?


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## msinc (Jan 8, 2017)

Bad advice???? Okay. let me go ahead and amend my post….glue them up. do not cut them down, and make sure you have all the end grain laying the same way so every board is crowned up {or down} just make certain they are all the same way so it's sure to bow. Forget about gluing them to stay together and not warp…make sure they "look good" and just do it. You will not be long figuring out which is the "Bad" advice. Best of luck…you are going to need it if you do it this way!!!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Bad advice???? Okay. let me go ahead and amend my post….glue them up. do not cut them down, and make sure you have all the end grain laying the same way so every board is crowned up {or down} just make certain they are all the same way so it s sure to bow. Forget about gluing them to stay together and not warp…make sure they "look good" and just do it. You will not be long figuring out which is the "Bad" advice. Best of luck…you are going to need it if you do it this way!!!
> 
> - msinc


Did you read post #2? Google Tage Frid and tell me you know more than he does. Frankly, with no projects and no blog posts, I don't think your credentials hold much water anyway. But I'm sure that won't stop you from pretending to be an expert, because you just know.

P.S. I do actually build things that way, they look beautiful and sell for a lot of money and my customers love them. Feel free to look at my projects to see a small sampling of my work, then show some of yours. Until then, it's just all hot air.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

Henry,

Welcome to LJ! Glad you are here. Your material looks great.

I am with Splinter and Jonah. That is tight grain and high-quality material. You should be upset if they move much at all. It is not a deck, so don't get caught up treating it like redwood or crappy pine. Glue them up and make sure you get the direction and order marked so you do not flip one last minute. Look forward to seeing this finished.

Rich/msinc - can you two please hug and make up now?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich/msinc - can you two please hug and make up now?
> 
> - BroncoBrian


I like you so I'm going to let that one slide 

I see you have the Oneway Multi-Gauge in your profile photo. What an awesome tool. I use mine all the time.


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## Jeremymcon (Jul 16, 2016)

I'd glue them up wide. Your base is sturdy, and you're fastening it down to help keep it from warping.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

> Rich/msinc - can you two please hug and make up now?
> 
> - BroncoBrian
> 
> ...


I like you too Rich. Don't want you passing on us from a heart attack too soon!

That Oneway Multi-gauge is excellent! Setting blades, tables, check the bandsaw split, and other needs are as reliable as it gets.

But you cannot ignore the bottle of Lagavulin in that image!


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

Hugs? And I'm not included?

For shame…

I glue it whichever way is prettier.


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## lumbering_on (Jan 21, 2017)

Nobody wins an argument about board width.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Nobody wins an argument about board width.
> 
> - lumbering_on


There is no argument. My way is right.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Tell the truth, would you rip it and flip it?


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Wow, this is a feisty group! I think I'm going to like it here. Haha. I'll glue them up full width, and post some project updates along the way. Thanks for all of the replies!


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I've heard professional woodworkers argue for both rip and flip and argue that it doesn't matter. Essentially means that there is no right answer and that we're in the realm of personal opinion and experience. I think that the look of the "rip and flip" is ugly and unnecessary; that's why breadboard ends were invented so that you didn't have to worry as much about cupping if you leave the boards wide.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> - Rich


That diagram really isn't correct is it? If you run a board cupped side up through tables saw, the blade wouldn't be parallel to the cup. It would be more like a series of speed bumps. I do agree largely with the overall idea.

If the board comes to me flat, I use it. If it's noticeable cupped, I cut it down. Seems to work for me.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Are you planning on using bread boards?

I personally would laminate up material for 1.5" thick bread boards and cut a full width tenon on the ends of the glued up top with a router.

Then you can double up with narrow strips on the long side edges to match the bread board thickness for the thick look you're after.

But that's just me….

And OBTW, comparing this table top build to a wide plank live edge table is, IMO, apples to oranges.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> That diagram really isn't correct is it? If you run a board cupped side up through tables saw, the blade wouldn't be parallel to the cup. It would be more like a series of speed bumps. I do agree largely with the overall idea.
> 
> If the board comes to me flat, I use it. If it's noticeable cupped, I cut it down. Seems to work for me.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


The article was about wood movement. He's just trying to illustrate the effects. That was issue #2 of Fine Woodworking in 1976 and they obviously hadn't gotten their graphics systems up to speed yet.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

> Nobody wins an argument about board width.
> 
> - lumbering_on


or bacon being better than sausage.


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## BroncoBrian (Jan 14, 2013)

Hang on Tom, are you saying bacon IS or IS NOT better than sausage? This is stressing me out…


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't mess with bacon lovers….........or Alder lovers….......JMHO


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## JohnMcClure (Aug 24, 2016)

Alaskaguy,
Did you by chance use a sliding dovetail underneath to hold the top flat with the bearers beneath?
I have been mulling over a wide slab table like that for a while, and have been burned by cupping before. The sliding dovetailed legs seem like an insurance policy against it.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Alaskaguy,
> Did you by chance use a sliding dovetail underneath to hold the top flat with the bearers beneath?
> I have been mulling over a wide slab table like that for a while, and have been burned by cupping before. The sliding dovetailed legs seem like an insurance policy against it.
> 
> - JohnMcClure


Sorry for the confusion. I guess I should have put a note in that post with the photo. That was a photo I found online. I did not build that table. So the answer is "I don't know".


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> Are you planning on using bread boards?
> 
> I personally would laminate up material for 1.5" thick bread boards and cut a full width tenon on the ends of the glued up top with a router.
> 
> ...


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

> Hang on Tom, are you saying bacon IS or IS NOT better than sausage? This is stressing me out…
> 
> - BroncoBrian


most definately bacon is better. there are no other meats.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

-- comments deleted by the author--

Well, I had some comments here, then I remembered that someone once said that "Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."

So, my opinion;
Definitely Bacon.
Rip - nearly always.
Account for wood movement - ALWAYS.

I will stand down now.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

The only reason I have seen to rip before glue up is to rip that smidge off one side so you can joint them. Otherwise ripping into the board is only needed if it is an entirely pithed out board that is going to split if you don't rip out the weak pith, or a board with some kind of fault that otherwise makes it unusable.

Based on your pics, that isn't the case, so joint one edge, doesn't look like you will need to face joint, so Plane it to whatever you want it to be. If you like that thickness, rip and edge, joint it or however to get it smooth enough to glue up. Arrange them all ways for the best grain/color match, and get busy with the glue, and clamps. Cauls are your call.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Just an update. Glued up the wide board widths nice and flat. Sanding and first coat of finish on underside of table (hence all the sapwood). Can't wait to see the topside with its first coat.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Oh. And thank goodness for HVLP sprayers.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Don t mess with bacon lovers….........or Alder lovers….......JMHO
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Damn skippy


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

HenryJames,

Looks good. Thanks for the feed back. Is that finish wet or are you using a gloss finish?


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> - HenryJames


Whaddya got goin' on there, Henry? Interesting. Are those PVC rings being used to prevent contact of the pipe clamps to the areas of glue squeeze out? If so, that's a great idea!


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## DustyM (May 16, 2016)

> - HenryJames
> 
> Whaddya got goin on there, Henry? Interesting. Are those PVC rings being used to prevent contact of the pipe clamps to the areas of glue squeeze out? If so, that s a great idea!
> 
> - Ripper70


I was just thinking the same thing! I need to do this, as I always forget how bad my pipe clamps can stick to or even stain my glue up. Pretty neat and economical solution!

And btw, that sure is one attractive top!


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

> Hang on Tom, are you saying bacon IS or IS NOT better than sausage? This is stressing me out…
> 
> - BroncoBrian
> 
> ...


My wife and I just made some sausage… with *bacon in it*! So, how's that!?
7.5lb venison, 3lb bacon, 2lb lean pork, half bag of "old something-or-other link sausage spice", grind, stuff, cook, serve, eat.

As for the table, I have never made one, although I have a lot of wide boards so am interested in the process. Thanks for the discussion.

Unfortunately, the photo is on my phone … which is broken now … and may never yield up it's contents.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Hang on Tom, are you saying bacon IS or IS NOT better than sausage? This is stressing me out…
> 
> - BroncoBrian
> 
> ...


Sounds like great sausage except you forgot the 3/4 cup Alder dust spice,

What is the difference between bacon and pork?


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> HenryJames,
> 
> Looks good. Thanks for the feed back. Is that finish wet or are you using a gloss finish?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Oh, it's just wet still. Arm R seal satin finish.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> - HenryJames
> 
> Whaddya got goin on there, Henry? Interesting. Are those PVC rings being used to prevent contact of the pipe clamps to the areas of glue squeeze out? If so, that s a great idea!
> 
> - Ripper70


You got it. I was fed up with the black glue stains. Plus the pvc rings raise the 4/4 lumber a touch, putting it more in line with the center of the clamp creating a little more even pressure I found. Just be careful cutting the pvc on a chop saw! I cut pvc all of the time to length, but with the pieces this small, I had a few fliers that caught a tooth blade.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

I figure for completion sake I'll keep updating until I'm done. 14mm x 140mm apron to leg tenons. Might pin them with oak dowels through leg. Not sure if I should bother though. And second coat of finish on the top. Still wet! Will be satin when dry. Knot holes filled with epoxy and transtint.


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

First off, Welcome! I've not worked with white oak so keep that in mind. Your glue up pictures look very nice!

In my experience working with red oak and other species is that wide panels will warp down the road if: The wood hasn't thoroughly dried after sawing, planing, etc.. So I rough mill my planks and let them dry/stabilize for awhile before gluing. Then depending on what look the customer wants, I orient the grain accordingly as I lay out my glue up. That grain orientation and the plank thickness determines whether breadboard ends are a good idea.

I've got red oak furniture that is 1-100+ years old that has split on the end grain even when built correctly. Oak end grain can be fickle as can hickory.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

BTW HeneryJames, now that you have glued up the top you know to keep it (the top) in such a manor it gets air flow on all sides. Don't lay it flat on something that blocks air to one side of the top.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I've found that you always, always, have to straighten and flatten boards before use. Otherwise the build can get very interesting. 
That said, My jointer is 6" wide max. So I don't bother to look for wide boards. Narrower ones also can be a bit more forgiving when glued up.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> BTW HeneryJames, now that you have glued up the top you know to keep it (the top) in such a manor it gets air flow on all sides. Don t lay it flat on something that blocks air to one side of the top.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Oh man, I learned this the hard way once. I glued up 3 desk tops and left them flat on my assembly table for 5 days. I came back and they looked like barrels. This was before I had a climate controlled shop and it was summer around 75% humidity. I keep table tops on 2×8's that are on turned on edge now, while I finish them.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> I ve found that you always, always, have to straighten and flatten boards before use. Otherwise the build can get very interesting.
> That said, My jointer is 6" wide max. So I don t bother to look for wide boards. Narrower ones also can be a bit more forgiving when glued up.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


This is where I differ. Many,Many tables later, I still don't own a Jointer. I want an excuse to buy one, but I can't justify it. I buy wide boards that are 12' or longer in length and always get lots of flat material. I built two 8' torsion box assembly tables that are deadflat over the 4×8 surface. So I reference board flatness on those. I choose boards that are reasonably flat, and use a festool domino for the glueups. No cauls needed. Always have ended up with flat tops. Boards that are real messed up get turned into smaller projects.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Well, she's done. Thanks for all the advice.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Turned out great. Much better looking than rip and flip IMHO


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## jmos (Nov 30, 2011)

Looks great. Much better, IMHO, than narrow width boards.

If you have it well secured to the base, and have properly allowed for expansion/contraction across the width, you should be golden.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Great looking table. The wide boards really make it look fantastic. Nice job!


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

Thanks. How many z-clips would you typically use? I made slots for 21 of them. 
Thing is, the store that just started commissioning them for me, asked I only put in a few of of the z-clips for now, so the top can be removed and put back on by the buyer to facilitate transporting it. So I only put 4 of them on. I'm wondering if the top will move real quickly with only having 4 clips, one z-clip at each corner, for a week or two until it sells?


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Looking good Henry nice classic design. Sometimes you just can't beat the classics


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

Henry, first it looks great! unless the legs come off I'm not sure how taking the top off will make it easier to transport. As the builder I'd put them all in place, that way the holes are there and alls well when it leaves your hands. I'd definitely want a couple on each end to fight any potential cupping.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

So I find taking the top off helps because it's an old farmhouse with tiny little doorways. The tops are so heavy compared to the bases. It is just real awkward swinging/maneuvering the legs through the doors with the heavy top attached. I also like to plan for the lowest common denominator, and am afraid people will literally hold it only by its legs while it's tipped on its side and their Carrying it. There are 3" deep mortises In apron, but still. Doesn't sound good. Do you tighten the zclips down snug, or back off the screw a touch so you can wiggle them slightly?










Now I'm getting real daring!


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Definitely tighten your table top fasteners. Trust me they will move with the wood I've seen plenty get too loose over the years. 
So I always start tight


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## EricTwice (Dec 9, 2016)

There are loads of theory on this subject, but in practice I find it doesn't matter. (I line in Virginia and have worked wood professionally for 40 years)

If the wood has been dried properly it will not have a lot of internal stress. White oak is pretty stable. Joint it flat before you plane it. Make sure your pieces fit together. If you can't hold them together with your hands rejoint the edges. Your job is removing stress not adding it. lay out the pieces for the top and arrange them so they look their best, then glue it up.

don't waste time over thinking it.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I think Henry has the table done already. He asking about separating the pieces for the customer to handle.
I don't mind being wrong so feel free to correct me Henry.
It's nice to have a Proper Woodworker sharing Eric. Your post was spot on correct except you forgot to encourage us to layup the boards for harmony. A good lookin table starts with a good looking top.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

> I think Henry has the table done already. He asking about separating the pieces for the customer to handle.
> I don't mind being wrong so feel free to correct me Henry.
> It's nice to have a Proper Woodworker sharing Eric. Your post was spot on correct except you forgot to encourage us to layup the boards for harmony. A good lookin table starts with a good looking top.
> 
> - Aj2


Yes, table is done and was asking about customer handling and removing top. Although it's nice to hear another in favor of leaving the boards wide. As my next top only has 4 boards total! I'll take your advice then and tighten the z-clips down. Thanks.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

You never know what a top will do till you get it moved inside and give it a few months. It can look good today but you might get a call ….. I've had it happen.

Doubt that will happen in this case.

Long story short, I would probably have gone with a thick BB end and thick aprons to hold it flat as possible.

But I can see you're a pro what do I know…..............LOL

Send us a follow up pic after its been through the winter. I'd be interested to see if anything happened.


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

The good things is my shop is heated and currently at 25% MC in the North East. Lumber was in the shop for 3-4 weeks before starting to use it here.
I'm actually biasing the Z-clips for more expansion then contraction at this point. Can't imagine many homes are <25>t quit my day job!


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## HenryJames (Nov 5, 2018)

The good things is my shop is heated and currently at 25% MC in the North East. Lumber was in the shop for 3-4 weeks before starting to use it here.
I'm actually biasing the Z-clips for more expansion then contraction at this point. Can't imagine many homes are less than 25% ?
Unfortunately I won't have a pic, because it's being sold.

And…Definitely NOT a pro. I cure cancer for a living. This is a hobby I started a few years ago to satisfy my inner neanderthal, and hopefully an early retirement option in 20 years or so. Wife and I would love to run a small business some day when we're done having kids and they are off in college and the bills are all paid. But until then, won't quit my day job!


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