# I want to build a traditional wood window - handtool



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Looking for some help here and advise.
1) I am not 100% hand tool but getting there. That said I am not opposed to using table saw, band saw or drill press.
2) I don't have room for and may never build a router table so a hand held router probably won't work for me, maybe.
3) I do have lots of planes including a Stanley No. 45 that has a sash blade that I am willing to bet has never been used.
4) I have a copy of "Doormaking and Window Making (lost art press) but it is a difficult read.

I like to embark on projects that are beyond my current skill level. It forces me to learn and grow my skills. I live in a historic district and a neighbor has a rotted window in need of replacement. I plan on using pine for the wood and can get the dimensions on site and the opening frame is still good. I guess I am looking for more detail on how to hand cut the joints at the corners of the frames. Another issue is while I can use the Stanley 45 to plough the molding reveal and rebate to receive the glass I don't know how to get the same profile to go into the end of the mating piece. Any help or ideas will be accepted.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Not the answer you're looking for, but I was able to repair a century old window sash by scavenging parts from another (spare / removed) one to replace the rot on the 'good' one. Some careful cleanup and dis-assembly, along with a few cuts and a bit of rasp work and I was there.

All that said, Roy Underhill had a segment on his show where he used planes to make sash… might search out and watch that piece.


----------



## jacww (Aug 23, 2015)

This may not fit your timeline but thought you might be interested.

Roy teaches a 2 day window joinery class at his school in Pittsboro, NC (about 4 hours drive from Spartanburg). Unfortunately it is not on the calendar for the rest of the year. He will post the class schedule for 2022 in early to mid December. Some classes fill up FAST.

All classes at the school are hand tools only.

Here is a link to the class description:
https://www.woodwrightschool.com/special-roy-classes/window-joinery-with-roy-underhill-2020-wlww8

I've taken several classes there (only one from Roy). They are great fun but hard work!

TonyC


----------



## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

> ... I plan on using pine for the wood and can get the dimensions on site and the opening frame is still good….
> - controlfreak


A picture of the original might have given viewers an impression of what you are contemplating. A glass pane with a frame, much like a picture, I can comprehend with hand tools…. however, if you want to get adventurous like a sash window with profiled frames, you may need to invest in some electron destroying machinery…

Another thing that sounds out of place to me is *pine*... great for inside furniture and cabinets, however, might be a tad wrong choice for outside unless it was treated pine and even then I would reconsider…

I'm no builder so that was my immediate thoughts.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

In the eastern parts of the country white pine was traditionally used from what I have read. A picture of the rotten window won't help with my project. The original windows were removed and discarded in the mid seventies and replaced with aluminum spring loaded tracks and new windows. I will need to determine next if I stay with the aluminum tracks or go back to the old pullies and weights. The pullies were removed so I will need to see if I can fine a source.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> This may not fit your timeline but thought you might be interested.
> 
> Roy teaches a 2 day window joinery class at his school in Pittsboro, NC (about 4 hours drive from Spartanburg). Unfortunately it is not on the calendar for the rest of the year. He will post the class schedule for 2022 in early to mid December. Some classes fill up FAST.
> 
> ...


It has been a problem finding classes with Covid. The class length is perfect and well within striking distance but I doubt my friend will want to wait that long. He has the old window propped in the hole because he is afraid a sheet of plywood will attract the preservation police. I think I will need to keep studying and researching and to a "trial by fire" on this.

What had me a bit freaked out was how the windows I have seen have finger style joint that I couldn't make with hand tools. As I have been reading the traditional joint was a hunched tenon and mortice which I can do. The learning continues.


----------



## LittleBlackDuck (Feb 26, 2016)

> In the eastern parts of the country white pine was traditionally used from what I have read….
> - controlfreak


Sorry for the *misinfo*, looks like the pine I use and what you propose are different.


----------



## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

https://www.houseofantiquehardware.com/sash-window-pulleys-zinc-plated?utm_source=froog&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=gdf&partner=froog&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwp64mvXE8wIV2B-tBh2LCA4jEAQYASABEgLm7PD_BwE

https://www.ebay.com/b/Antique-Cast-Iron-Window-Weights/63520/bn_97472184

in remodeling biz, whilst not a whole lot of older windows have survived in Az. we do make repairs in what they call the Historical district. we use here what is called a sugar pine, to me its just clear white pine. 
good luck, 
when a youngster going to school in south bend, worked for a company installing Zylers and new sash, it was the rage in the early 70s. i must done hundreds if not thousands of replacments, had a biz selling the weights for boat anchors for the st. joe river fisher ment. lol
rj in az


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

You might want to find an old Stanley #55 manual. While it obviously has some cutters that are not even usable by the 45, IIRC, it does have a good section on how to achieve different profiles using various cutter combinations. Someone in Mos' combination plane forum thread may have a link to one or even have done one before.

If you do plan to use pine, look for some with very tight grain. This should improve its workability and longevity. Some nice old growth would be ideal but is may be hard to find these days.

EDIT to add: you may have already done the requisite web searches but here is a tutorial that might be helpful.


----------



## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

You might find this guy's videos interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/c/JimSear/videos


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Good find there Knockonit, thank you. The window has those trap doors to service the weights so as long as the frames weren't removed along with the weights, normally they just let them fall into the frame. I am leaning toward a complete renovation back to the original design. The aluminum spring loaded tracks require a 3/4" channel to be cut down both styles and that will weaken the joints. So I now have a plan.


----------



## ac0rn (Jan 31, 2020)

You may also find the needed parts at a Habitat for Humanity thrift and re-use store.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Right now the biggest hurdle is finding some acceptable wood. I will need to remeasure this weekend but I think I am going to need 8/4 stock to make 1 3/4" styles and rails, a little more for the meeting rails. I wanted to use clear white pine and found some on a lumber yard price sheet but they said they are out. I am trying to use a softwood to work but not so soft it is prone to decay, Any ideas?


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Douglas fir is fairly durable as long as you can get some with tight growth rings.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I don't see much Douglas Fir on the east coast, it isn't even on the lumber yard stock list. :-( 
Here is their list.








I have never worked Alder and have no idea about how it weathers.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Doug fir is a little hard to find here in DFW too but HD and Lowes do carry 4×4's which I have resawn for various uses. I select the finest grain ones I can find.

I have not used Alder but I don't think it is considered durable though might be okay as long it is maintained properly. I don't really see much on the list that would be easily worked with a moulding or plow plane and good for external use. I suppose any of them could be worked but I would probably check other sources for the white pine, Doug fir or maybe white cedar. The cedar would probably have the best durability.


----------



## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

You might look into getting a sash fillister plane - just to be authentic.

Moseley and Son (england) made a bunch of them. I have one that came from a carpenter in New Jersey who must have made a bunch of windows all the same based on the wear on the plane.

Other than that, I have no idea what you are up against.

I think mine was put together incorrectly in the ebay photos below from when I bought it.

-Paul


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I am hoping I can get my Stanley 45 to do the job but I had a little trouble on my first attempt. Plan on trying to get it dialed in this weekend.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Doug fir is a little hard to find here in DFW too but HD and Lowes do carry 4×4 s which I have resawn for various uses. I select the finest grain ones I can find.
> 
> - Lazyman


Good call on the Douglas fir 4×4 posts, I need to double check on the bottom rail size, it's gonna be close but it may work. It's cheap, I can get it and it won't cost much to screw up.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Look for 4×4s that don't have the center or pith running through them. I prefer ones where the grain sort of runs diagonally between 2 corners when looked at on the end.


----------



## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

Very nice tutorial pointed to by Lazyman in Comment #8.

But what about the outside edges to limit draft and water stagnation at the bottom?


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Since I had never actually tried making a window sash with my 45 (actually a Record 405), I broke out my sash cutter and tried it on a piece of SYP I had laying around. It took quite a bite of fiddling with the adjustments to get a decent profile but it finally worked. You want to make sure that you get some nice straight grain. Not sure that I would want to make an entire window with one of these and I didn't even try to to do any of the joinery cuts required.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Very nice tutorial pointed to by Lazyman in Comment #8.
> 
> But what about the outside edges to limit draft and water stagnation at the bottom?
> 
> - Sylvain


I have seen that tutorial and it is very good. I also have the book appears on his bench "Doormaking and Window-Making" from Lost Art Press. A difficult read mostly because people wrote differently 100 years ago. It also assumes my skill level is beyond where it is. I wake up at 4:30 am and read it daily to pick up the nuances.

From what I have gathered a groove is to be placed on the bottom edge of the bottom sash to inhibit or break the capillary action a strait edge would have. The fit of the window to the frame, the fit of the meeting rail and the parting beads is what has worked for over 100 years so that is what it will be for draft seal. The frame is mostly intact (except for the parting beads) and has a slope to shed water.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Since I had never actually tried making a window sash with my 45 (actually a Record 405), I broke out my sash cutter and tried it on a piece of SYP I had laying around. It took quite a bite of fiddling with the adjustments to get a decent profile but it finally worked. You want to make sure that you get some nice straight grain. Not sure that I would want to make an entire window with one of these and I didn't even try to to do any of the joinery cuts required.
> 
> - Lazyman


I had some trouble with the 45 but did some more fiddling this morning and got what I call better but I will need to refine that. For the fun of it I am bidding on some very old sash planes too.

The book "Doormaking and Window-Making" from Lost Art Press the author is carful to make sure the reader is aware of the grain direction before taking the plane to the wood. This far in I am just glad this is a one over one window.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Well I just barely won a A.HOWLAND & Co. N.Y. Screw arm Sash plane: 1870, I hope it works out. Someone else tried to get me at the last second but missed my max bit by a dollar. Should be fun to tinker with.


----------



## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The videos that I've seen that use wooden sash planes seem to go much smoother than my attempts with the 45.

Are you going to make muntins for divided light too? I assume those require a different cutter profile than what came with my my 45.


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Nathan, this thank goodness is just a one over one window muntins would give me a fit with the sticking board and such.


----------



## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

Sash planes are skewed, no? That would make things go a lot easier than a 45 for any sort of big profile. If you're going to use a 45, take little bites. The cut needs to be light, and the skate needs to ride in the deepest part of the cut (which isn't easy for some profiles).

I got a bit of a course on window construction when rehabbing the piano windows in my place in Minneaoplis. If I had stayed there, I might have eventually rebuild the other two piano windows in the house, but getting the profiles right for the muntins would have been a challenging bit, for sure.

It's a good project to tackle, CF, but you're probably going to have a lot of opportunities to learn along the way. But a sticking board is a pretty easy thing and something you need for nearly any moulding. I have a "nice" sticking board made out of 3/4 white oak, but that's 8' long, so when I need a shorter one, or one for a special purpose, I knock one together from scraps quickly. They don't need to be fancy, they just need to hold the work and not get in the way.

I would probably use poplar. It's easy to work, fairly lightweight, and while it's not especially weather-resistant, that's what a good coat of paint is for. And did I mention poplar is easy to work?


----------



## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I like easy!


----------

