# How can I tell if a gouge is for carving or turning?



## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Not able to find out, via multiple on-line searches if my new-to-me 1 3/4" gouge is for carving(would be OK) or turning(what I bought it for). Does it even matter? It was re handled by previous owner. 
Pics:
(Modeled by hubby)




































Thanks, in advance, for your help.


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

Id certainly think a tool that large would be for turning. The gouges (2 of em) that I use for carving are chisel sized. You'll love that butcher steel, its some of my favorite out there.


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## ksSlim (Jun 27, 2010)

All of my carving gouges are of thinner material than the lathe tools.
I notice that the gouge is apparently ground "out channel" (backside of the arc).
If the material is thick enough it could see some lathe time, but consider where it will ride the tool rest.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Yes… Turning tools seem to always have longer handles… while Carving tools tend to be much shorter & designed to be use with a mallet.

How the curvature, etc. of the Cutting ends compare, I don't know.


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## SierraRick (Sep 2, 2014)

Looks like a spindle roughing gouge to me.


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## SierraRick (Sep 2, 2014)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.workshopheaven.com%2Ftools%2FAshleyIlesRoughingGouge32mm.html&ei=_eDsVIe5BoqrogT5voGADA&bvm=bv.86956481,d.cGU&psig=AFQjCNFSKZA98VZHOassFQQCnn3PvjIyrg&ust=1424896618441424


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

The previous owner rehandled the tool, is why I questioned it. Not saying he did it wrong or tried to pull one over on me…I just did not want to do anything unsafe. 
Any hints on sharpening would also be appreciated. It's in dire need! I have a slow speed wet grinder as well as a bench grinder, no jigs, yet.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

After I got my crappy lathe I was surprised to see how many turning tools looked like the size of baseball bats. For my gouges I got the Wolverine jig, which works great. It was so frustrating trying to sharpen them without it. I could do it but they didn't come out as great as with the jig. I know plenty of people have built a jig because the Wolverine ain't cheap.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Early 19th century. Could also be a timber framing gouge.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/huk/Butcher/history/hReview/02-History-Butcher.asp

edit; after looking at it again and reading a little about the Butcher Bros., I suspect it is a wood carving gouge. You should ask the wood carving guys what they think.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Good score Cindy! What does the cutting edge look like?


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

More than likely a roughing gouge. The previous owner put on a larger handle to get better control when roughing. Those out of balanced logs are tough with a small handle.


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## Grumpymike (Jan 23, 2012)

Yep I agree with the spindle roughing gouge group … Handles that long tell you that it is a lathe tool … should have a 40 to 45 degree grind, (I set mine at 42-1/2 degrees as that is optimum between 40 and 45)
Good find on that tool.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I am an avid Butcher collector. You will find the steel to be of very high quality.
I have one that is very similar, but with a much shorter handle. Kinda looks as if the tool would do multiple jobs depending on the handle.
Wanna sell it?
Bill


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Looks like a roughing gouge for turning to me.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

JMHO but it may be a spindle gouge. I suspect a carving gouge with the handle changed.
Beware of the very small/weak tang and do not use for bowls at all. IF a spindle gouge it is probably a "continental gouge" common in Europe. The largest continental I could find was a Sorby at 35mm and an Ashley Iles at 1-1/4 so the one you have would be very large indeed.
Packard does carry some continental gouges but not in that large.
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=tools-srby-congou
or the Sorby
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/sorby_sgouges.htm

The amount of tang exposed makes me think it is for carving as this would be a long weak point for turning.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Carving gouges all have a shoulder on the tang. This is what allows you to hit them with a mallet without driving the handle further onto the tang with each wack. If you hit that gouge with a mallet it would eventually split the handle. This means that, while carving gouges can be used on the lathe, you generally should not use lathe tools to carve with.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

After re-looking I do see a German spindle gouge at Packard in 1 1/4 width which they say can be used for roughing (but not on faceplate work). Packards tools are made by Hamlet in the UK. But again note that the tang does not extend much past the end of the handle. Then again maybe the wrong size hole was drilled to accept the tang?

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pkrd-gsg


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

That's a puzzle, Candy.

I've never seen a spindle gouge nearly 2" wide…a quick google search showed mostly less than 1" just now. My Henry Taylor roughing gouge is only 1" which seems huge on my lil lathe, but has a larger tang than what you've shown.

Could be a massive wood chisel someone has re-purposed into a lathe tool? Judging from the known quality of the Brand name, I'd use it on the lathe for roughing. Sure would like to see less tang sticking out of that handle, though! Maybe a good project for you? Another handle?


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## SierraRick (Sep 2, 2014)

Terry,
Here you go.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-Gouge/D3807


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## baldric (Dec 13, 2014)

Its a lathe roughing gouge ,I have one made in the good ole us of A made by Greenleigh, I love using it!


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. In response to some of your questions/statements…

ksSlim, if I correctly understand roughing out a spindle, it is mostly the tip of the tool, or just behind it, that would ride the rest…yes?

"Early 19th century. Could also be a timber framing gouge." Rick, that would be cool, too. I had considered posting in the chisel thread…

Waho, the overall shape is like the spindle gouge you posted, but with an asymmetrical grind closer to the detail gouge.

















Would you think the asymmetry was purposeful?

Mike, my eyeball estimate is that it's about a 45 degree angle. I remeasured the width and, from outside edge to outside edge, it is actually 2" wide









Bill, I'd like to sharpen it up and take it for a spin. You can always PM an offer.

Lee, I'm guessing you mean 'small' relative to the overall size of the tool? The tang, at the smallest exposed portion, is 1/2" by 3/8". Short of removing it from the handle, or an X-ray, is there a way to guestimate how much is embedded into the handle? I am able to poke a sliver of bamboo skewer down 2 5/8" into the hole along the back of the tang and 4" along the front. 
Terry, I first saw one this size in a YouTube video by Alex Harris (go to the 1:49 mark to see his gouge). 
Rick, that Shop Fox looks pretty close to what I have. 
Baldric, do you have a link for Greenleigh? I couldn't find a USA version.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

At 2 5/8 deep that should be plenty of the tang in the handle.
In your video the roughing gouge looks more like the "spindle roughing gouge" which is the first pic in Waho609's post; a deeper flute and straight end, almost like a pipe cut in half.

Yours is also a spindle gouge (and a monster of one  ) as show at 15:45 mark in this video. Much broader with a flatter flute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQSfAxuL8g#t=1061


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

I'd guess a large roughing gouge for turning as well.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

> Terry,
> Here you go.
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-Gouge/D3807
> ...


Wow, that's massive! I don't think I could lift a log large enough for that gouge!


yeah, that fingernail shape on the tip is ground on a spindle gouge.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

well im tending to think it was probably a timber framing tool, i would be very leary to use it on a lathe with the exposed tang, there is to much exposed and i can see a bad accident happening with that tang, just my humble opinion , i dont want to see you get hurt, it sure is a mighty fine tool,


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Candy, the asymmetry is not intentional, just something that can happen when you sharpen without a jig especially if you aren't practiced.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Initially thought was looking at old carbon steel continental gouge until someone mentioned wrought iron!

http://www.fine-tools.com/T303327.jpg

For those that do not know Bob Stockdale gouge originally a modified carving marble tool until Gerry Glaser started making them for him and woodturning community.

http://www.glaserhitec.com/shop/shopping/916-bob-stocksdale-gouge-15v/

Suggest making a new tool handle before using that tool for better control. You want as much of that tang inside the handle as possible.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

ColonelTravis, I'm looking into the Wolverine and the Blackhawk.
Thanks for the video, Lee. Kinda scary watching the guy turn that knotty chunk! OK, showing my ignorance as a new turner here, what's the difference between a spindle roughing gouge and a spindle gouge?
Thanks for your concern, Grizz. I think I'll see how difficult it is to remove the current handle and replace it. Still would like to know what the original looked like.
Rick, that's kinda what I was thinking, but like I said, I'm new to turning.
Bill, thanks for the links and handle suggestion.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

Newbie turner, soooo….
A "spindle roughing gouge" is just that….
A beast for roughing an unbalanced, odd shaped hunk of wood, into a balanced cylinder.
A spindle gouge, could also be called a detail gouge….
For cutting the finer details…. on a spindle.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

So, generally, a spindle gouge is smaller?


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

That and it could have swept back wings….
There are a variety of different grinds…
What grind you choose…. is more personal preference.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

Oh what a tangled web woodturning tool manufacturers weave. Not really.

There are two main types of gouges; Spindle Gouges and Bowl Gouges.
In spindle gouges it can get a little murky. With current production there are basically, Spindle Roughing gouges (however they can be used for a lot more), Spindle gouges (standard), Detail Spindle gouges, Shallow Detail Spindle gouges, and of course the Continental and German style Spindle gouges.
If you bought a new "set" you would probably get a Spindle gouge and a Spindle Roughing gouge.

Here is link to Thompson Tools which has some good pics for comparison.
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/tooltype.asp?TYPE=SD
If you click on the Spindle, Detail Spindle, and Shallow Detail you will see that for any size a different amount of steel has been removed: Spindle 50%, Detail 33%, and Shallow Detail 20%

It really isn't that bad, other than the Roughing it mostly comes down to the depth of the flute and the type of tang (almost all are a continuation of the straight steel bar). So yes to your question, a spindle gouge is typically smaller than a spindle roughing gouge. If you are turning a cove it is restricted a lot by the size of the gouge. A 1/2" spindle gouge can turn a 1/2" cove or anything larger, your 2" gouge could turn a 2" or larger. Hope that makes sense, you can't put a 2" peg in a 1/2" hole.

Bowl gouges are easier but there are more variation in the type of grind.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)




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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> what s the difference between a spindle roughing gouge and a spindle gouge?
> - CFrye


http://lumberjocks.com/replies/1219681

Beside the obvious shape, the sharpening angle may be different.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Candy... is your brain slightly overloaded?*


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

I know what you mean. 
For now you should just consider two types of spindle gouges; the standard and the roughing. Probably 95%+ will be one of these. Just be aware deviations are out there. The one you show is so "odd" from todays norm that it is hard to classify it as the type of tool (carving vs turning) much less a specific use.
You've got a dandy.
Most of the time….
The standard spindle gouge will be made from round bar for the entire length with the flute milled in it.
The roughing will be made from flat stock and look about like half a pipe and in almost all cases be formed (bent) with a flat tang.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

OK, I've slept on it (the info, not the gouge). Seems a little clearer today. Thanks again to you all that have taken the time to answer my questions. Lumberjocks are the best. I'll keep you all updated.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Here are three continental pattern spindle gouges. One in the middle an old Sears tool, the other two are HF red handle tools given to me with broken handles. I added new handles and sharpen them with 35 to 45 degree bevels. Most US turners that own a continental pattern gouge use it as a roughing gouge because that is how they are listed in tool sets.

I use mine as both roughing gouge and long sweeping curves on lamps and vases. With touch up at the grinder can get an off the tool finish using one of these for final cuts. My tools very inexpensive but you can pay a lot for a good gouge!

A very famous woodturner now deceased use nothing but a large continental spindle gouge to make his famous candle sticks!


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

^Learning about gouges, myself!  Thanks for starting this, Candy!

My 'roughing' gouge doesn't have that continental grind…use it for rounding square stock and hogging off material quickly. My 1/2" spindle gouge has that shape shown above…I use it for details, but really rely on carbide for finishing.

Bill, what grit grinding stone do you use? Mine is around 80, and I suck at leaving a finish right off the chisel. Have a vintage set of Craftsman chisels ($25 off eBay), and get the best finish from the skew. on spindles. All my bowls and plane knobs require tons of sanding.


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## LateNightOwl (Aug 13, 2009)

I haven't posted on here in forever, but I am concerned for your safety as an inexperienced turner.

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't believe that is a roughing gouge. The first thing to notice is the grind. Do a simple Google image search for "roughing gouge" and you will notice that roughing gouges are straight across at the end-they are not swept back at all. This is so the tool can be rolled giving you a straight, supported cutting edge all the way across. A roughing gouge is meant *only* for roughing out spindle stock into a cylindrical shape-moving straight across. Never for any shaping beyond a taper. A spindle gouge, with the swept back ears, on the other hand, is used for shaping. You can more safely move it into your piece without the ears catching. That is the difference between the two and why they are shaped differently.

What you have looks more suited to carving to me, but it could be an old style lathe tool or someone did a weird grind on it. In any case, it needs some work (a new handle that buries the tang at the very least) before you consider putting it into use on a lathe.

The most important thing is to please, please be safe! Get some experience under your belt before you poke that thing at a piece of spinning wood. Get your hands on some tools that you KNOW are properly made and ground for use on a lathe and get comfortable with them first. Then *you* will have the experience to know if this tool would be safe.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> Get your hands on some tools that you KNOW are properly made and ground for use on a lathe and get comfortable with them first.


Amen.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

> Get your hands on some tools that you KNOW are properly made and ground for use on a lathe and get comfortable with them first.
> 
> Amen.
> 
> - TheDane


A recurring theme, Candy.
All your LJ buddies are concerned for you.

You've dug up an incredible tool…but one that needs to be saved for later, IMO. Surely re-purposed by someone with years of experience. And, possibly, taking shortcuts (the exposed tang).


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

I agree with others to save that tool for later.
I also agree with Wildwood that not all roughing gouges are the same as most sold in most US stores now.
Here is a short intro to a Richard Raffan video. Note the shape of the "roughing" gouge he uses… it is only in seconds 17 to 22 I believe.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Thank you all for your concern. Weather you realize it or not, you all are enabling this procrastinator. 
Lee, I couldn't really get a good look at that particular tool in the video. I could watch a turner like Richard Raffan over and over again.


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## upchuck (Nov 3, 2013)

CandyF-
I know less then squat about turning. But it seems like you are getting some good advise on safety issues.


> I think I ll see how difficult it is to remove the current handle and replace it. Still would like to know what the original looked like.
> - CFrye


I do know how to remove handles from tools and it is as easy as falling out of a tree.
Get a dowel 2" or so longer than the exposed part of the steel. Rest one end of the dowel (or stick or whatever) on the handle where the steel protrudes with the rest of the dowel in the "u" channel of the gouge. Point the handle in a safe direction (sofa, bed, or something soft). Hold tool steel and dowel in one hand and whack exposed top of dowel with a mallet (or scrap of wood or what have you but not with metal faced hammer!).
Handle will fly off. It may take two whacks depending on how vigorous the first one is.
chuck


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I have tried researching woodturning tools of long ago but there just isn't much info. My suspicion is that since all gouges were forged back then, there may not have been much difference between turning and bench gouges.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Appreciate the tip, Chuck. Will give it a try. 
Thanks for looking, Rick.


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## davegutz (Oct 16, 2012)

I cannot tell how experienced you are with turning….don't want to talk down to you! You asked about sharpening. For turning tools I use a simple bench grinder with a special handle rest and I think it's common practice. Turning tools need to be sharpened frequently and the quality of the edge does not have to be very good except for the skews depending on your style. I don't bother to debur (except for the skews which I polish). I am careful not to grind too hot. The extreme thickness of turning tools make it hard to get them too hot.

The handle rest is very handy. This is the idea: http://www.badgerwoodworks.com/articles-and-information/lathe-tool-sharpening-jig/


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Dave, that seems like a very do-able rig! I may have everything needed already. Now if the weather will just warm up on the days when I'm off work! Thanks for sharing. 
And the turnings (2) on my projects page are exactly half of my completed projects. Can't get much newer as a turner!


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

German & Continental pattern spindle gouges still made and sold today. Not sure will still find a 2" continental gouge sold by any tool vendor today. This gouge is largest can find and difference between German, continental, spindle gouges very slight.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=packard&Product_Code=100194&Category_Code

Many inexpensive tool set will contain ½", ¾" or 1" continental pattern spindle gouge. These sizes will serve the average turner well as a roughing gouge or finish turning.

Larger size German or continental spindle gouges used by turners still doing large architectural & furniture turnings. Bodgers making their own tools from car springs often forge gouges and skew chisels on the large size.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Thanks, Bill. Rick posted a link to this 2" Shop Fox gouge earlier.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

> I have tried researching woodturning tools of long ago but there just isn t much info. My suspicion is that since all gouges were forged back then, there may not have been much difference between turning and bench gouges.
> - Rick M.


There really is quite a bit…. and a lot for free download if interested.
This one, The Principles and Practice of Hand or Simple Turning (by Holtzappffel published 1881) gives a pretty details discussion and pic of tools on page 258. He also explains what (to me) is now called the Raffan cut of hollowing small vessels starting on page 281. And of course problems still plaguing turners today such as orbiting objects from scroll chucks 
http://www.archive.org/stream/turningmechanica04holtuoft#page/n7/mode/2up


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> There really is quite a bit…. and a lot for free download if interested.
> This one, The Principles and Practice of Hand or Simple Turning (by Holtzappffel published 1881) gives a pretty details discussion and pic of tools on page 258. He also explains what (to me) is now called the Raffan cut of hollowing small vessels starting on page 281. And of course problems still plaguing turners today such as orbiting objects from scroll chucks
> http://www.archive.org/stream/turningmechanica04holtuoft#page/n7/mode/2up
> 
> - LeeMills


Outstanding, thank you. I read quite a bit, will have to finish up later.


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## terryR (Jan 30, 2012)

Yes, awesome link! Thanks!
Will have to search for that book…


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

I went to a Lathe Tool Sharpening class at our local WoodCraft store and took the Butcher gouge with me. The instructor said it was definitely a spindle gouge for turning. It is a little less asymmetrical now. I de-handled it after I got home using Upchuck's whack-it-with-a-stick method described above. One whack was all it took! Thanks, Chuck!




































Still need some grinding, but much better! Now, with what do I want to make a handle? Suggestions on handle length will be appreciated.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

I would go with about a 12" handle. With most spindle tools you tuck the handle under your forearm instead of against your side like a bowl gouge.


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Sure glad you found out what it was… 

That handle should be a piece of cake for you!


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## upchuck (Nov 3, 2013)

CFrye-
Believe it or not but "whacking things with a stick" is not patented nor trademarked nor is it protected by copyright. I'm pretty sure that people have been whacking things with sticks since sticks were invented. I make no claim for originality.
As for a new handle…If you want to replace the one that came with the tool with a copy of the original then old
Butcher catalogs might give you an idea of how they were shaped. But many old turning tools were sold without handles. Hey, turners can turn their own handles, right? 
Rather then try to duplicate what might have been provided by the maker why don't you turn your own to the shape that feels right for your hands. If you use others turning tools pay attention to the ones that feel best in your hands and copy that or copy a blend of the other tools.
Good Luck.
chuck


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Lee the handle that was on it was 12" and seemed kind of short. I've been reading Turning and Mechanical Manipulation you linked to (thanks, again, for that). I need to do more research on the use of it. Please post some of your projects or a link to where they can be seen!

Joe, appreciate your confidence!

Chuck, patented or not, just wanted to give due credit, my friend. Maybe make two handles. One original-ish and one to match all my other tools…when I decide what they're all gonna look like.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Apparently there was a behind the scenes disagreement with my opinion the asymmetry was unintentional. I have learned that people sometimes grind asymmetrically on purpose as in this video by Jake Gevorgian. 





I would not assume every asymmetrical grind was intentional, but this grind was very even and I am convinced it was intentional. All is good, there are no hard feelings. But I encourage everyone that if you have a different perspective or different opinion to jump in and say, 'hey, it could be this other way …' I am not afraid to admit there are people who know more than me.


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## CFrye (May 13, 2013)

Thanks for that link, Rick! That is a really asymmetrical grind in that video!


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