# Vintage squares for those who want the best they can afford.



## tierraverde

So what did you pay?
I found a NEW Starrett for $59.00 at Amazon.
And I don't want any feedback from the people who who buy the total junk at the big box stores.


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## DIYaholic

I tend to purchase tools/machines because I need them (when I say need them, I mean I need them NOW, ASAP, STAT). I try to purchase the right tool for the job, while anticipating future needs. This generally means buying the best I can afford (at the time) at a reasonable price. Unfortunately, I don't always know what is best or reasonable (or it simply is not an option at the moment) so I end up with something that is either less than optimal or way more than I will ever need. So be it, that is life! Occasionally, I actually have time to anticipate, research and evaluate a tool/machine. This where LJs (amongst other sites) comes into play (I mean to the rescue)! Reading the reviews and comments from the "Informed" goes a long way to finalizing any purchase decision.

So, with all that being said, I blame everyone else in the world for any of my feeble tool purchases! Lol.


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## AttainableApex

how long did it take you to find it on ebay, if they have another maybe…
i have a 12in and a 6in but i hate my 12in, its…. um…. from …. the big box store.


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## tierraverde

Attainable
My point exactly. I made the same mistake.
Let me guess.
Hard to read due to glare and skimpy graduations.
Thumb nut is hard to tighten to stop slippage, then even harder to loosen, once tightened.
I used to have Starretts and Lufkins, but gave my machinists tools away to my aspiring apprentice nephew. I regret that decision.


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## StumpyNubs

JimC- I paid 15 bucks for it, plus another seven for priority mail shipping. I was looking for as good a square as i could get for around $30-40 and so a Starrett was out of the question. Even the vintage ones go for $60-80+.

Attainable- I used to use an Empire combination square from a box store. It worked reasonable well but after reading a Fine Woodworking review about combination squares I decided I would try and get a premium one if I could find it at the right price. Measuring and layout tools are one area where you want the best you can afford. There IS a difference, and it's much more obvious than I expected.


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## brtech

I got my Starrett 12" with both the square head and the protractor head for $40 + $7 shipping off ebay.

Wonderful tool. So much nicer than the cheapie I was using.


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## StumpyNubs

brtech- WOW, I've never seen a Starrett go for that cheap! Great deal for you!


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## brtech

This is it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=120666069193&si=W5QaRHibZy2b6fF0E0THnudp3Cg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3AOU%3AUS%3A1123#ht_5123wt_1138

You have to be patient. I use a "snipe" service, usually Gixen, which is free. I load up bids in Gixen for each of the available items that are equivalent, and put in my maximum bid, which takes into account what was included (I bid a bit more for this one, because it had the protractor head), age, condition and shipping charge. I come back every few days and see if there are any more items listed. Gixen will do a last second bid, and will only "win" one of a set of items in a "group", so although I might be bidding on 8-10 combination squares listed at any one time, if any of my bids wins, Gixen will stop.

On something like a 12" Starrett combo square, where there are always 6 or more listed, eventually, I'll win one if I offer something reasonable. I'm working on a 4" double square now, and have lost out on maybe 10 listings, but it's okay. Eventually, I'll win one.


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## StumpyNubs

AHHHHHH! A sniper! Ebay sellers HATE you! Snipers cost sellers TONS of money!

Nice square though… It's a hundred dollar square for sure… hope that ebay seller can afford to let it go so cheap!


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## StumpyNubs

I'm not saying that *I* hate snipers, I've learned that if you list an item as an auction you have to be prepared to accept whatever you get.

But the reason most sellers hate snipers is because they ruin the point of an auction. In an auction a low starting bid like a dollar is set to encourage bidding. Then as others bid, the original bidders are encouraged to raise their own bids. They build off one another and the excitement of the whole thing brings the seller the best price. When bidders don't put their bid in until the very last second, it ruins the whole process and the seller loses big time! I know most people say, who cares about the seller, but some guys are just trying to make a living…

With all due respect Cessna (and I *do *respect your opinion) Saying "a seller who sells an item for less than he needs is clueless" is not really true. If a seller sets the opening bid higher than a few bucks he can't compete with the other sellers who have a 99 cent starting bid. It's all about getting those initial bidders because most people stick with the first auction they bid on. And it's a proven fact that auctions with a reserve price turn 75% of bidders off.

As someone who makes a living on ebay, I don't deny buyers their right to use whatever strategy they like to get their best price. As a seller I just adapt to the reality of sniping and sell my items with fixed prices rather than in an auction. But that came from thousands of sales worth of experience. Most sellers who are just trying to put food on the table don't have that experience and so sinping kills them.

I don't do it for that reason, but that's just me. I respect the right of others to do it if they like.


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## wseand

I never measure anything with an adjustable square. Why would you want to. I believe that the only thing any square should be used for is marking. Tape measure and/or ruler are the only thing I use to measure with. If I need the marking to be accurate then I use a fixed, if it doesn't matter then I use an adjustable.


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## StumpyNubs

Actually, an adjustable square is an amazingly versatile tool with many uses most people never thought of. It goes way beyond measuring. From setting a router bit height to checking a table saw blade or fence to see if it's parallel to the miter slots, marking lines along the edge of a board from one end to the other with precision… You should check out some of the articles Fine Woodworking and other journals have on them. I was surprised myself to learn all you can do with one!


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## wseand

Will do Stumpy, thanks. I am amazed every day on the little things you never think about. It usually takes a dumb question like mine to get the juices flowing.


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## swirt

I have this same Millers Falls combination square. It has a nice feel to it. Unfortunately the ruler on mine is bent. Unfortunately that pretty much makes it unreliable for any kind of marking. I keep hoping to stumble upon a replacement ruler that will fit, but haven't yet.


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## StumpyNubs

Cessna- While it is true that some ebayers don't have a huge investment, and therefore should not expect an equal return to what retail operations get, this isn't always the case. When you start talking about ebay businesses rather than hobby sellers, everything changes. I run three ebay stores and while I don't have a brick and mortar lease, I do have the added expense that comes from a house big big enough to accommodate the business, and about a thousand dollars a month in ebay and other fees to pay that I would not have with a regular store. I also have to keep several hundred auctions going at any given time, so there is a significant inventory to keep as well. Plus I have to deal with much the same issues any business owner does, from public relations to advertising to liability. Add to that a massive amount of packaging and shipping and you can see why an ebay or other internet business is just as expensive and labor intensive as a brick and mortar, and why it requires the same profit margins as any other retail operation.

I think it is a mistake to assume that sites like ebay are just a secondary marketplace that real business just use to get rid of their unsellables.

The reason why I don't personally hate snipers is because I understand that any market is made up by the seller who is going to do whatever he can to make the highest profit possible, and the buyer who is going to do whatever he can to get the lowest price possible. It's the nature of business and a seller is wasting his time if he complains about it rather than adapting his business model accordingly.

However I also realize that most sellers are not businesses, and they don't have the ability to adapt. Those are the sellers I speak of when I say snipers hurt them. While, as you said, an auction goes to the highest bidder regardless of if he's an early bidder or a sniper, that ignores the true nature of ebay buyers. The typical buyer sees what he wants, puts in a low bid hoping he can get a great deal, and watches that item to see if he's out bid. Along comes another guy like him, who puts in a slightly higher bid to get what he considers a good deal, and that forces the first bidder to raise his a bit. As more bids are placed buyers tend to raise their price to a level higher than they ever would have bid in the first place because auctions excite people and cause them to compete against each other. That's the formula that has made auctions a popular type of sale for hundreds of years.

The problem is that traditional auctions keep going until all bids are exhausted and the absolute highest price is reached, while ebay ends auctions at a set time weather all the bids are cast or not. If a bidder comes in at the last second and snipes the item, the seller has to let it go for, not the maximum bid of all the bidders but just the maximum amount that sniper was willing to pay. The other bidders have no chance to raise theirs.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if every bidders just put in their absolute highest bid to begin with, but they never do. That's the nature of auction bidders, they start low hoping to get it cheap, and are forced to reconsider their "highest bid" when someone out bids them. One way some sites (like Amazon.com) have gotten around the problem is by extending the length of the auction is someone casts a bid in the last minute.

I have owned both brick and a mortar store and internet stores. They are two vastly different models, but one thing remains the same. The buyer loves a deal, and the seller wants him to be happy. But if a seller can't get his best price, he can't stay in business.

Thoase are just my thoughts, but they are also based on a great deal of personal experience.


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## StumpyNubs

Your business is larger, but not all that different. For example, my family (started by my grand parents) owns a regular brick and mortar hardware store. When the building still had a mortgage it cost something like $500 a month, plus another $500 or so in utilities and insurance. That is what I was comparing to the $1000/mo in ebay fees. Employee salaries depend on the size of the business, but weather an employee is working in the hardware or packaging products for one of my ebay stores, they still make wages. I know some large ebay stores that have many employees, hundreds of thousands of dollars in payroll and millions in sales every year. Again, a comparable situation to a large retail store on main street. Our family hardware store has an inventory to buy and maintain. Most ebay stores also have an inventory as well, some with many thousands of items. We even have to take an annual inventory for the IRS, just like a regular store.

Basically what I am saying is the only difference between an ebay store and a brick and mortar store is I don't have to worry about a slip and fall in my stores. But I do have to worry about fire, flood, etc.

We just exist in two different worlds. But a virtual store on the internet and a brick and mortar store downtown are more alike than you know.

Yes, people do sell ebay businesses. An ebay business has a carefully built reputation, name recognition and branding among it customer base, fixtures and equipment in the home office (or rented office for some), warehouse space for inventory, sometimes business vehicles etc depending on size. It's all very much like a regular store, and is just as sellable. The difference is (unless you own an office or warehouse space from which you run it) there is not real estate involved.

You may not have heard of any ebay stores being sold, but it shouldn't surprise you since many other internet business have been sold for very high prices.

I'm enjoying the discussion. Don't worry about offending me with your point of view. I can stick up for myself… 

BTW- What is the DAK Catalog?


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## Bertha

I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I've got a Starrett that I use to check my vintage squares and I PROUDLY use a combo square from a big box store. I partially jest, as I really only use it to transfer measurements. A tiny adjustable story stick if you will. Other than that, my big box combo square is terribly off square. I could probably peen it, etc. but it's not worth it. I have some vintage squares that are 100 years old & a dead match to my Starrett. Like someone else here said, if it's flat, then it's flat. I feel that anyone who's interested in precision owes it to themselves to have at least one nice fixed rule and a square. It's $100 or so that you'll never regret.


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## StumpyNubs

Oh yes. He's the guy who started the business in the 60's and went bankrupt in the 90's when his line of credit fell through. Then he traveled for a couple of years before buying his name back and starting a new DAK. I always thought his story was strange because he said he was profitable but the banks weren't interested anymore. I wonder how profitable it was if after 30 years he was still relying on a line of credit to stay afloat?

Anyway, it's a great site, very informative for tech-geeks.


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## StumpyNubs

Garage- Are you serious? You mean I have to buy a new $100+ Starrett just so I can get a certification of squareness? Tell you what. Send me any square you want, a cheapie or a good one. I'll draw a line with it and tell you if it's square for free. I'll even make you a certificate if you like…

Sorry, didn't mean to make fun of you (too much) but I know it's square because it makes marks that are exactly perpendicular to the edge. I don't need anyone to certify what I can see. (Filp it around and if the blade still lines up you know it's right)

Of course, if I was making some sort of machine with tolerances of less than a thousandth of an inch I may want a certification to be sure it is "perfect". But this is woodworking and for thousands of years people made beautiful things with crude hand tools. Absolute perfection to a ultra-fine degree is neither needed nor achievable with wood. I do have a ultra-accurate small machinist square, but in woodworking if a square is so accurate that you can't detect any error in your shop, it's "perfect" enough.

By the way, I watch your Podcast from time to time. Keep up the good work!


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## AZMac

I always use a Starrett square. a good square is the back bone to a good square project. 
good hardwood is not cheap, and I don't need wast money with cheap tools. 
AZMac


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## StumpyNubs

Garage- you didn't read my post. I was explaining that "perfect" is a reletive term. There are different levels of perfection. Perfection to the standards of what can be detected with the naked eye is "perfect" for woodworking.

Not good enough for your shop? Better hope your wood doesn't expand or contract or move with moisture like everybody else's since you are trying to measure and mark on a micro level! Do you sand? I bet your surfaces aren't perfectly flat to your ultra-exacting specifications then. Do any hand cutting on that "Perfect" line? Even a well tuned table saw won't cut as square you are demanding because there is always a human factor, plus a minute flex in the end of the fence or a hair's worth of give in the cross cut. Are you machining your wood with precision, computer controlled tools like a machine shop?

Come on! Be realistic!

And AZMac- I am NOT talking about buying cheap tools. I am talking about getting good USED tools for cheap. A Miller's Fall's square is NOT a cheap tool. If you got your Starrett cheaply would that make it a cheap tool? Not at all.


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## Bertha

I've got both. If I needed thousandths of an inch precision in my shop, I'd go into mtealworking. For me, I'll use a reaonably attractive Starrett for important stuff and a beautiful, charming, glory of a vintage just because I like it in my hand & it draws relatively straight lines. It's all quite personal, I think. To wit,

Starrett 6 " precision rule for $22.00. Superaccurate. Good looking:









Preston ivory rule for $150.00. Very inaccurate. Glorious:


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## StumpyNubs

This debate really has nothing to do with this review. I think Starrett is great. I was just pointing out that there used to be other premium brands of the same quality. Miller's falls used to be nearly as good, if not equal to Starrett. But now the only place to get them is used like on ebay. So, if you can't afford a new Starrett, you can often buy a used one, or one of the other premium brands used and save a ton of cash.

HOWEVER- the debate about how precise woodworking needs to be in an interesting one. So I moved it to it's proper place, the Lumber jocks Forum. I hope you'll join me there to continue the discussion: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/25606


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## Bertha

You've got a good point and I'm guilty of going way off topic. On topic, however, I think the older Miller's Falls squares are drop dead gorgeous and more than precise enough for my regular needs.


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## StumpyNubs

Garage- I understand your point. But that would mean the only square worth buying is a brand new Starrett which is certified square? (I understand they will calibrate older Starretts for a fee). I find it hard to believe that the other top brands of the past (like Millers Falls, etc) aren't good enough just because they haven't been "certified" by Starrett. And I think if it is precise beyond what I can detect, it's as precise as any woodworking project will ever demand.


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## Bertha

^Wow, those are nice. Thanks for posting that. A solid square must feel great in the hand and these are beautifully finished. I hesitate to guess at the cost of the 6".


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## StumpyNubs

Garage- Again, you are talking about 10,000th of an inch. Yes, if my line was off on each piece by 1/10" it will add up. But errors a thousand times smaller will not be even detectable, and human error will surpass that even if every tool and machine were precise to such a level.


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## StumpyNubs

Can you lay out a segmented table top's angles with a combination square? I agree that many segments require more precision. But I argue that 1/1,000th of an inch or even a degree is not a tolerance in the realm of woodworking.


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## gatosailor

I work at a nuclear plant and the tool room is a Starrett fantasy land. Bottom line is that if we rebuild a feed pump or one of our safety-related injection pumps, they better work and the cost of Starrett precision is worth it. Woodworking?... No so much.

My Dad was a Brown & Sharpe machinist for many years and I have a lot of his old measuring tools, some more than 100 years old. He gave me a Starrett mag base that had a stripped knurled knob. It was breathtaking what Starrett gets for one of these bases today. The knob alone cost a fortune.

Brown & Sharpe tools were made in Rhode Island, are commonly available used, and have always had a reputation for quality. They are a good choice if you need quality measuring instruments.


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## wreker

Thanks for the review Stumpy, now I don't feel so bad about my swanson combination square, although I didn't know to do the line and flip test. I'll try that soon.


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## unbob

I just found a #1200. Really a good tool, the rule says chromed-easy to read.
Note, Starrett rules are too thick cant be used.


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