# Winter shop: pole barn (heating question)



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Question….

I have a double wide, double deep, *pole barn/*garage (roughly 20×30 garage). This is my first winter in the shop with all my tools in there. There is zero insulation in it. Insulating the garage is not in the budget at the moment, and and may never be - as this is not a forever home…

I'm wondering your thoughts on heating it when I need to work out there for a day or so. I do not want to heat it all winter long, just when needed. With no insulation, is this even possible? Could I get a 800 sq/ft heater (from the big box store) and heat when needed? I have no experience with this, and would love some input before I buy something I shouldn't! Thanks!

I thought about partitioning off half the building and just heating the back side - cars are parked in the front, shop is in the back. However, I don't want to limit my space in the summer (when the cars will be parked outside, giving me more room).


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## sawdustdad (Dec 23, 2015)

About the only thing that makes sense is a kerosene "torpedo" heater. I've used one in an uninsulated 22×30 foot garage (concrete floor) when I had to work on one of the tractors. It will take the chill off, but it's not really a good solution because they are noisy and smelly. Depending on where you live, it may work for a while. The heaters are not that expensive but you have to haul and deal with kerosene or diesel fuel.

Your tools will rust away unfortunately in an unheated pole barn. I'd try to find a way to insulate the building. Fiberglass batts are not all that expensive.


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## JBrow (Nov 18, 2015)

dakremer,

I second sawdustdad recommendation to insulate. In Iowa, the winters are fairly brutal and you will be lucky to get more heat into the shop than you lose. So the question becomes how to do this with little or no money? My first thought is check for any consignment or second hand building supply stores near you. Habit for Humanity may have a resale store nearby. Also you may find a remodeler or insulating contractor who is willing to give you a call when he is tearing out some insulation.

In your case, a kerosene heater is probably your answer. I have used propane, but went through the propane like crazy. So I switched to kerosene until a couple of years ago. I did not like the order, cleaning up kerosene spills when overfilling the heater, and the odor, and the inconvenience of having to buy the stuff. The kerosene is now gone. A problem to consider with kerosene is that as you burn, moisture is introduced to the shop. It would, I think, be a good idea to ventilate the shop by opening a door for a few minutes every so often to let the moisture out if you heat with kerosene.

Reducing the footprint of the barn makes sense for heating purposes. In order to open the entire length of the barn in the summer, you could install an insulated garage door in the partition wall. Check with garage door companies, explain what you are trying to do, and see if you can talk them out of a used door that they have replaced. You would still have to purchase the hardware (tracks and springs).


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

You really should insulate first. It may not be a forever home, but if you own it, I'd insulate. If you do things properly, it might even add something to the value when you sell.

Also, "not forever" homes have a way of becoming "stayed here a lot longer than expected" homes.

As mentioned, fiber glass batts aren't that expensive.

I took a very quick look at HomeDepot's price on R13 batts. It ws roughly $0.50 per sq ft. Assuming 8 ft high walls, a 20×30 structure has 800 sq ft of wall or $400 of insulation. You have another 600 sq ft of ceiling/roof which is another $300 (through R13 is skimpy for roof insulation).

So you're looking at $700 in insulation. And I would assume if you shopped around a bit you could get something for less.

I think you'd be looking at $400 for a reasonably large kerosene heater plus you then have to buy fuel for it. So while you might spend less this winter, it won't be that much less and I think after two seasons you'd be at a loss.

Of course even if you insulate, you still need to heat it. But you might get by with just an el-cheapo electric heater.

Another thing, if you really, really don't want to spring for insulation, you might consider putting up some plastic sheeting on the framing This would help seal the space and trap some air between the plastic, framing and exterior wall, giving you some added insulation.

Though I don't know how you could run a portable kerosene heater or similar in a closed space and not kill yourself.


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## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

.


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## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

The heat in your shop will rise and escape as quickly as you produce it without insulating. The kerosene cost without insulation would be too costly. If you did add the insulation you could easily use a topedo heater from the box store.

Do you have access to an inexpensive firewood source? A wood burning stove might work for you needs but installation would drive the cost up.


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## HamS (Nov 10, 2011)

Insulate, then install a 30,000 BTU propane vent free heater. will keep it above freezing for very little and bring it to workable temp (60 or so) in less than an hour. I am in central Indiana so is not really cold, but it ain't warm either. when I went to shop last night it was 10 outside and 40 in the shop with just the pilot light on the heater on.

My shop is 24×48 and half is partitioned off. I did not do it, but one of my buddies has 'moveable' walls. They do move, but you don't want to do it often. The walls started out as theater set pieces. he added 2×4 depth, but with 1×4's and put insulation in them. think a 4×8 luan panel with 1×4 studs where the 2×4 would be set on a 2' x 4' base with a brace. these are on nylon slides. He piles stuff(mostly wood scraps) on the base to keep things upright.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

I would think by not insulating, your equipment may be on the way to the rust pile. Just my 2-cents.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I have 2 of the construction heaters. It can't truly heat it, but you can function. I have been in my shop when it was -5° outside.


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## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

This may not work depending on where you are in the world. What I have been using is the "remote heat" solution.

Put simply, I heat my house rather than the shop. I work for about 1/2 hour to 45 min at a time with two hoodies and long underwear.

Then I go back in the house for awhile and thaw out. Then back to the garage.

Recently I added a propane IR heater, which does not warm the shop much at all, but does warm me if I happen to be at the TS or workbench (in other words, it heats what you point it at). Despite not raising the average air temp in the shop appreciably, it does make it more pleasant between thawings to have the heater warming up your derrière.

My limited experience so far supports the wisdom above…no way you're going to put enough heat into that kind of a building to make it warm in there in the winter. Only way would be to fix or replace the building first.

Since I didn't win the lottery either…I'm currently using my "remote heating" technique until I can build my forever shop.


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## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

This is kind of an odd idea, but hit up as many thrift stores and yard sales as you can and buy up all their old blankets and quilts. Hang these on the walls and fashion a ceiling from them using rope for support. If you later move, you'll have plenty of blankets for packing tools/furniture


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

As hotbyte mentions, covering the walls and at the very least the celling. In the past I've setup temporary work spaces using sheet plastic thicker mil the better and used tank top propane heater. It'll at least make comfortable. Oh and fingerless gloves are a must!


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

How high are the ceilings? You are likely to spend as much on fuel as you would on insulation and still not be warm.


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## bkseitz (Oct 24, 2014)

I've a 30×45 steel barn (PacNW). In winter its been a freezer. I originally bought a propane barn heater to get the space usable…wound up getting two to do the job. That was a temporary and expensive fix I was willing to take initially while I started building out my shop. I hit HD for 1" rigid insulation, chip board and husky trackwall. Every few months I complete a section. I've now got a little more than 1/4 of the barn done-the area I've set up shop.

The barn is still cold during the winter as I leech hit from other areas, but 1) it heats up quicker 2) with both heaters running I can work in shirt sleeves instead of a heavy winter jacket and gloves 3) I don't feel a draft from the workshop walls 4) I've cabinets hung to store suppliers, equipment and parts.

Advice start insulating as soon as possible, it will save you money in the long run. If you track the cost of fuel used to heat your barn you see even a modest level of improvement will save you $$$. Heating costs add up quickly


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

almost sounds like people are directly equating cold+heaters = rust. My dad ran a shop out of an uninsulated barn for many years. I still run the equipment and its not rusting away. On equipment rust caused by temperature is because the tool is at or below the dewpoint of the air. This can happen anywhere anytime. uninsulated shops see it more often because they are open to dramatic changes in humidity. They are not usually "tight" and easily follow the humidity variations. In a "heat as needed" shop the humidity is artificially increased from the natural byproducts of combustion Co2 and water. when heated with non-vented type heaters. Wood burners send the water and co2 up the stack but as the shop cools down the equipment still crosses the dewpoint and condensation occurs. Keeping a coat of past wax on the exposed metal parts helps tons! and a shot of wd40 once in a while to the workings helps too.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

So it seems the majority are saying insulate. So my initial question - can you heat up the shop for a day (if I wanted to work out there) without insulating it (with an electric heater)? I'm not looking to heat it all winter long (yet). Just when I need to be out there. Looks like the wife isn't getting her built-ins until I insulate the garage….


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## bkseitz (Oct 24, 2014)

for a 20×30 garage you'll likely take off the chill, but nothing more with a standard 110v electric heater. I tried that with my 2 car garage before (its has an insulated door) and didn't get much better. I later used propane heater to raise the temp and then 110v milk box electric heater to slow the cooling.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

My three car garage is about as big as your pole barn. I spent this past summer insulating it (it already had insulated doors). It hasn't gotten real cold in Chicago yet, but yesterday morning the outside temp was around 0 and my garage was around 33.

I bought a 220V electric garage heater as well. I didn't get a chance to try it yesterday, but in the past I've brought the temp up from 40 to 65 in about an hour. And the heater wasn't even on full.

I already had the 220V outlet for my table saw, so I just switch back and forth depending on how cold I am or if I really need to cut something. Using the electric heat also reduces the relative humidity since there is no H2O vapor released.

The heater cost about $225. Fiberglass insulation and 1/2" OSB for the walls and ceiling ran about $900.


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

Hi, I have a small 20×24 shop, I used blowen insulation, it took 35 bags at $6.79 per bag and for about $250 with tax I am warm as toast. I put 10 inches in the top and heat with one electric forced air heater of 3500 watts at $80 from lowes. Works well and cost little to heat the shop. No $700. You can rent the blower and with a friend or even the wife to help its not a bad job.


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## Bill1974 (Mar 24, 2010)

Fiberglass batts are cheap.

A radiant heater is probably the only option if it's directed at you and where you are working. they will at least heat you and your tools and what you are working on. Your other options are heated clothing.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

> So it seems the majority are saying insulate. So my initial question - can you heat up the shop for a day (if I wanted to work out there) without insulating it (with an electric heater)? I m not looking to heat it all winter long (yet). Just when I need to be out there. Looks like the wife isn t getting her built-ins until I insulate the garage….
> 
> - dakremer


There's too many unknowns to accurately answer that question. Obviously it matters how cold it is outside, but even un-insulated, there are construction details of the building that affect this.

Also, there is almost always some heater somewhere big enough to do the job, but for common 120 V heater, there's no way they would do much in a space that large without insulation. A 240 V would of course give you double that or more depending on the unit and the circuit size. Again, there is no doubt some sort of industrial electric heater that could do it, but would be impractical.

Sounds to me your best bet may be to get an electric radiant heater and point it at yourself while working out there. Maybe even get a few (running on separate electric circuits) and put yourself in the middle of them.

Also, anything you can do to shrink the work space will help. That way whatever heat source you have will be contain in a smaller area and that area will heat up more. Hang old blankets or plastic sheeting to wall things off.

Also, it is no easier to heat it, just because you will only be out there occasionally. This may mean that it is reasonable to use a lot of electricity or fuel occasionally. But a heater large enough to heat it up without any insulation is going to cost a bit.

Also being used as the garage, you have to be careful about heating things up, and then opening the garage door to run to the store and losing some heat. On the other hand, when you come back with a warmed up car, pull that baby in and take advantage of the heat it will give off. However, without insulation, non of this will make much difference.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Im going to try and post some pics of the inside of my (very messy) garage and let you guys see what I'm working with. I took a measurement of the garage, and it is actually 24×36. A big 18' garage door on the front.

Looking at insulation costs - its really not THAT expensive. Of course you have to buy lumber and sheeting to finish off the inside, which adds up….

What are your thoughts on blown-in insulation for the walls?? Doing some very quick math, I could insulate all the walls for under $300 (with blower rental)


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

> Doing some very quick math, I could insulate all the walls for under $300 (with blower rental)


Dak, you will get the best return on your money by insulation the ceiling first, then work your way down the walls. Also, consider the use of a fan to push warm air from the ceiling toward the floor.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I'd insulate the ceiling/roof before the walls. Maybe you could sort of sneak up on this. Do the ceiling proper. And blown insulation for a ceiling is not a bad way to go. Make sure your walls are well sealed by caulking cracks etc.

That may get the space to a point that you can get it warm enough with a reasonable sized heater.

I do agree that when insulating you really do need to factor in the cost of material to cover the insulation. So that is pushing you closer to $1 per sq ft total.

Keep in mind that you are talking about 836 total sq ft of floor area. That's 1/3 of a good size home. So insulating and heating that size space isn't trivial.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I just measured the purlins on the roof, and they are spaced 20" on center. Most fiberglass insulation comes in 15" or 23" OC. I don't think you want to squish 23" to fit because you'll lose R value. So it looks like fiberglass insulation is out. So am I left with either spray foam or blow-in? Knowing next-to nothing about insulating/heating, I'm assuming I have to do something about condensation/moisture?


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I'm not sure the frame spacing on the roof matters becasue you are not necessarily going to want to have your insulation in contact with the roof. It's more common to have a ventilated air space to prevent condensation building up on the underside of the roof.

There are un-ventilated roofs (hot roofs), but I believe these are limited to warmer areas. Assuming you are more northern and have real winters, you probably need to keep that space vented. Though a workshop typically won't generate as much moisture as a home since you presumably wouldn't be cooking or bathing in there. But just breathing puts moisture in the air. And also being your garage, on snowy days, your cars will bring in moisture that will get into the air.

I'm not sure if there is a building technique truly designed to completely block moisture. In fact I've read that often moisture tends to get in from the outside and that vapor barriers my do more harm than good by helping to trap moisture.

I do know that venting the roof will avoid moisture problems and I think that is why it is so common to do it that way.

You may need to create an attic space and build a ceiling, or get on the google and research how to insulate a vaulted ceiling.

I know it sucks to have to readjust your thinking so much. You start out thinking you just need to get some sort of decent space heater and the next thing you know you're looking at a building project.

Something else to consider, going back to your originally idea is perhaps you can rent or borrow a large heater and just see how it works. While it's not the best long term solution, maybe it would be a better fit for you and at least you can try it without buying a heater just to find out it won't do what you want.


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## JeffP (Aug 4, 2014)

Just one last point I would like to make here…

Thank your lucky stars that you have such a large space. It won't be cold forever, and once spring arrives you'll have a much larger space than many of us.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

> Just one last point I would like to make here…
> 
> Thank your lucky stars that you have such a large space. It won t be cold forever, and once spring arrives you ll have a much larger space than many of us.


Its one of the reasons we decided on this house! 24×36 garage! I get half of it in the winter, and all of it during the summer!!


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

It's my understanding that you don't need any vents as long as the whole structure is getting insulated (no attic). If you create a ceiling (with an attic), then you must vent the attic. I could be wrong on this. I also don't know how to stop the tin from sweating inside my shop. I'll have to do some research to make sure I do it right!

I think I'm definitely going to insulate. Not this winter. But I can probably slowly work on it and have it ready by next winter!


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## eflanders (May 2, 2013)

My opinion is that I would use rigid foam insulation for the ceiling and walls. Allow for an air space between the studs / rafters. That will help prevent issues with sweating if air is allowed to flow between them. These are are easy to install but costlier than fiberglass. However I really think it would work better for your situation. You can do a little area at a time. Tape the seams as it really makes a difference. What kind of floor is in this shed? If concrete or dirt, it will hold moisture which adds to condensation / machine rust issues. If the temperature is kept the same, you will not have any rust issues regardless of the floor.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Back in Tennessee I had a 30 X 40 metal building put up. I poured concrete for the floor and used those pink Styrofoam sheets along the walls as insulation. They went 8' up but there was no ceiling (just open rafters) so my insulation was minimal at best. I had 4 ceiling fans to move the air around and during the winter I used a 220V garage heater I found on the internet. Rather then mount it solid to the rafter, I welded together a small roll-around cart to hold it. I put in a 220V outlet and made a 25' extension cord so I could move it around to the areas I was working in. It actually worked quite well. I still use it here in my new shop, same cart, with the extension cord to move it around as needed.
.
.


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## Wondermutt (Jan 21, 2016)

Dak, if you plan on heating it while it is still not insulated, put a couple of these around your shop. It will really help with the condensation build up and will help your tools stay nice and shiney 

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/dri-z-air/4735


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

My experience in an unheated shop is that there are some good advantages to not heating…at least down to 40°. When I do heat to take the edge off of subfreezing temps I use radiant heat focused on my work and tool storage. The biggest advantage here is that the air does not get heated first and drop its water content on my cold tools. The radiant heat warms the tools so water does not condense on them. Heat is not readily lost to air rising out of the comfort zone. It warms me directly and indirectly from the warming work surfaces. I've found that a warm vest is the best garb, and vinyl dotted knitted gloves until the tools warm up. Draw back is that you cannot leave boards exposed very long or you risk warping them. Some of my timber has not seen artificial heat in its 100 year history, so I am very careful not to shock it. Completed winter pieces bound for heated areas get moved through progressively warmer areas, so not to shock the piece. Tried and true practices of my 50+ years woodworking.
DanK


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## Richforever (Mar 19, 2008)

Cutting fiberglass insulation isn't hard. I insulated the garage ceiling and walls then put sheetrock over the insulation. I still need a heater, but it works well if I let heat from the rest of the house go into the garage for a couple hours before working in the garage.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Dan - It can get to -20 or -30 F here in Iowa. Its impossible to work out in my shop in the winter. Its just way too cold. I'm not looking to heat the garage all winter long, 24/7. Just looking to be able to keep it above 32 degrees (and a warmer when needed)


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Fiberglass insulation seems really inexpensive. I just don't want to have vapor problems. Not sure of the best way to insulate to avoid any moisture problems.


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

My experience in an uninsulated and insulated building is that I have moisture problems. I'm in IL so very low temps are no stranger. But when a warm spell with its high humidity sweeps across, that seeps into the building and suddenly (within an hour of the change) all metal object have a film of condensation. Dehumidifiers haven't helped…only the radiant heat has prevented the condensation. It's the only comfortable heat source I've found and it costs only pennies to run for the relatively brief work periods I put in. But those brief periods are enough to warm the tools just enough that they don't condense moisture. It would cost upwards of $10,000 to put a ceiling and insulate my shop. I can buy a many years of radiant heat for that.

I have also stored tools in an enclosed cabinet with a 60 watt bulb as the "heater" and that works well.
Just my $0.02.
DanK


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

My dad was saying i need a heater that heats the tools not the air. That will help with moisture. I also might try those things Wondermutt has suggested.


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## bkseitz (Oct 24, 2014)

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/6858


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## TTF (Sep 13, 2009)

My shop is 20×30 and I heat it with a wood stove. It's a bit of cost and work to install one, but I rally like it. Low cost to use and really makes the space comfortable. That being said, I did insulate my shop. I've been in un-insulated ones with a stove and they seemed OK - but I'm in Oregon, not Iowa (not as cold).

I bought the insulation for my shop off of craigslist. I often see it sold on there, where someone is redoing a building and sells what they are pull out. I also bought my wood stove there. It still costs money, but not thousands of dollars.

Good luck


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## bkseitz (Oct 24, 2014)

@TTF, considering do same in my shop after I finish insulating. Have to go through a bunch of paperwork in Washington State with regard to woodstoves though. Fortunately already have a certified woodstove in house I'll be able to use as we're planning on upgrading the one in the house.


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## tturner (Nov 5, 2012)

Funny. Although you say insulation isn't an option, people still tell you to. I won't. Instead I'll tell you to get an LP torpedo heater. Over 100,000 btus. I know this as I have the same issue so experience is talking here.


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## Makarov (Jun 16, 2013)

I would look at tarps or a large garage like frame tent to put up inside the building it!would reduce your area greatly. Then I would use some kind of heater in there. I dont know where you live but you might have to keep it warm enough long enough for glue to dry.


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## TTF (Sep 13, 2009)

@bkseitz - yup, I had to go through the same paperwork - and two inspections - in Oregon. I was able to buy an EPA approved stove on craigslist for $200, and another $200 for the inspections, and $400 for approved chimney, flue and roof support box (they wouldn't allow used ones). I would think with a metal building, it could be easier.


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## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I haven't noticed any moisture problems in my pole barn last summer (but its not insulated). I have a ridge vent that runs the entire length of the building. Which helps out a lot. I will have to ask around to make sure I have the proper moisture barriers, etc before insulating. Maybe I can convince my wife that I NEED spray foam insulation and just be done with it….


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## DanKrager (Apr 13, 2012)

Dak, I had a garage remodeled into a bedroom couple years ago now. Insulation choices had to be made, so I priced what I thought was the very best…spray foam. If I bought the material and did the labor myself, 640 sq ft would cost me over $3000. I was ready to pull the trigger when I came across a product called NuWool. Its a shredded paper product mixed with borax and very thin glue and is sprayed in like foam. It becomes rigid like Styrofoam. Upon researching it I learned that it has unbeatable sound deadening properties as well as being rodent and bug proof. It forms a tight seal so no further moisture barrier is needed…no leaking around outlets etc. Labor and materials from a contractor installed was $600!!!! The new garage is right next to the bedroom and we cannot hear the garage door opener and only my diesel truck makes a sound that can be heard in the bedroom. The integrated bathroom is so insulated and we cannot hear the toilet flush even when the door is a bit ajar. Highly recommend it.
DanK


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