# Going to buy a CNC Router - I Need to know what I need to know!



## Marleywoodie

We've got a small "Mom & Pop" commercial wood shop. Mostly we build raised bed garden kits, which is obviously pretty seasonal (depending on where you live  )

We're considering getting a CNC Router table to take on some new types of projects we have in mind, including sign making and table top inlay and such.

We have several purpose built custom fixed table routers in the shop, and we'd like some versatility.

The Axiom Pro+ AR8 looks like good machine from what I've read so far.

I know something like this should start a lively debate from which I hope to learn much.

What do I need to know and what do I need to look out for?

Thanks!


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## DS

Where to begin?

Let's start with the work you want to do and will the machine accomplish that.
This machine has 3 sizes 24×24, 24×36 and 24×48. 
The 3hp (2.2KW) spindle has a basic ER20 collet and no ATC - meaning manual tool changes.

So, while this can make your signs okay, it is not suited very well for any kind of volume production, as the operator involvement is relatively high and maximum sizes are limited. (For an example, we run a 4' x 12' table with a 25hp ATC spindle to produce custom cabinetry, processing about 10 to 12 sheets of plywood an hour - really no comparison)

Next is this little gem I found on the website for this router;

*Software sold separately*

While the prices for this machine that I saw ranged around $7k, the software can run $1200 for Aspire and even more for others. 
I run a program called Cabinetvision, which, for a full advanced CAD/CAM setup can range around $35k.

Which software you go with will make an immense difference in the ultimate functionality of your machine.

CNC machines run g-code (or some variant of g-code). These are simple X, Y, Z coordinates that tell the machine how to move. It is very much like plotting graphs like you did in high school algebra class. 
The machine is basically dumb. If you have bad g-code, you get bad tool movements.

So, the job becomes about generating good g-code the most efficient method possible.

Generating g-code can be done in a multitude of ways with a multitude of different software. There are even some folks using Excel spreed sheets generating g-code.

The nice thing about more advanced software is that the design and the manufacturing steps (CAD, CAM) are closely integrated making the process quick and painless.

Ultimately, you have to decide if the better machine and the better software makes you more productive and more able to accomplish your goals.

If your goal is high volume signage, a more expensive initial investment, will actually cost many times less in the long run than if you bought a lesser machine and lesser software.

This is just a beginning of a fairly intense journey. 
Best of luck to you.


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## JohnMcClure

I use Vectric V-carve software (great for signmaking, gets the job done for lots of other tasks). It is below $1000, and in my experience has been very straightforward to use.
I first bought a Shapeoko 3 and had great results for very low startup cost; bear in mind the working area is smaller than the expensive machines. I recently upgraded to an Axiom machine and am very impressed, worth it for me, but I spent 7x as much money to get it; there's no way that would have been my first machine, as I didn't know what I was getting into!
It wouldn't hurt to get a small, cheap, used CNC router to play around with; like DS said, it's all in the Gcode, so if you get good results with a small cheap CNC, you'll know what features you need in a bigger, more powerful, more precise machine, and then you can shop in earnest.
If you're in the Houston area you can come by and see what the Axiom can do (Or the Shapeoko, until it sells).


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## ArtMann

I have a Camaster Stinger with a 24 X 36 work surface. I have turned down sign work many times because the maximum working width of the machine is only 24 inches. I can overcome the 36 inch limitation by using precision indexing but I can do nothing about the 24 inches. If I had it to do over, I would buy at least a 4 by 4 foot machine.

I use Vectric Vcarve Pro to do some of my design work and all the G-Code generation. I found the software to be fairly easy to learn and quite versatile.


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## Marleywoodie

This is all great information and food for thought. I did wonder about whether the 24"x48" was sufficient (especially for signs). The software is another item all together. I guess I assumed it would come with the machine, so, clearly another layer to explore. Keep it coming boys & girls, this in great stuff!

The thought(s) about starting smaller are well founded, however we are in a situation (a good one) where we kind of have to make the decision soon.


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## Ger21

If you are buying it for a business, don't go smaller than 4×4.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> I have a Camaster Stinger with a 24 X 36 work surface. I have turned down sign work many times because the maximum working width of the machine is only 24 inches. I can overcome the 36 inch limitation by using precision indexing but I can do nothing about the 24 inches. If I had it to do over, I would buy at least a 4 by 4 foot machine.
> 
> I use Vectric Vcarve Pro to do some of my design work and all the G-Code generation. I found the software to be fairly easy to learn and quite versatile.
> - ArtMann


+1


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## Marleywoodie

Any recommendations for for 4×4(+) machines?


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## Mahdeew

I have been looking at shopBot.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Any recommendations for for 4×4(+) machines?
> 
> - Marleywoodie


https://lagunatools.com/cnc/swift-series/swift-cnc-router-4-x-4-3hp/


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## Marleywoodie

> I have been looking at shopBot.
> 
> - mahdee


Nice, but YIKES on the prices! I'm sure they're worth it, but their smallest one is about 3x what I hoped to spend!


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## Underdog

The machine is well worth the research and money involved. Consider also that you'll need a company that gives good support and doesn't leave you hanging when things inevitably go wrong.

That said, that's just the start of the expenses. You also must buy:

Software to run it. That includes a post if you buy something like Aspire, Carveco (formerly ArtCAM), Rhino, EnRoute, etc. (Don't forget you're gonna need support for this too.)

Tooling to cut material with. If you do any kind of volume, you'll be spending a bit of money on tooling and resharpening.

Dust collection. Best get something good w/ plenty of volume. Plan it out so you don't have to do so much work emptying bags, or cleaning up messes when it fills up and backs up into the DC itself.

If your router needs a clean/dry supply of air don't forget to include a drier AND condensate drain with your air compressor.

Seems like there was something else….

Good luck. It's a great investment that usually pays off.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> I have been looking at shopBot.
> 
> - mahdee
> 
> Nice, but YIKES on the prices! I m sure they re worth it, but their smallest one is about 3x what I hoped to spend!
> 
> - Marleywoodie


*Laguna*


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## Marleywoodie

Thanks for all the great info and food for thought. I'm talking to Laguna about some options. I'll keep updating this for advice.


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## Desert_Woodworker

The Laguna model uses a HHC (hand held controller) You will not need to have a PC to operate your machine.
At 1st I was apprehensive but once you understand it - It works great. HHC has been around for years.
2nd it uses a water cooled spindle, which enables it to run for long periods of time. I have made 22 continuous hour cuttings without stopping- and the bit was warm, not hot to the touch.
Fantastic customer service from my experiences with my machine.
Best of luck to you.


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## DS

+1 All good points to consider



> The machine is well worth the research and money involved. Consider also that you ll need a company that gives good support and doesn t leave you hanging when things inevitably go wrong.
> 
> That said, that s just the start of the expenses. You also must buy:
> 
> Software to run it. That includes a post if you buy something like Aspire, Carveco (formerly ArtCAM), Rhino, EnRoute, etc. (Don t forget you re gonna need support for this too.)
> 
> Tooling to cut material with. If you do any kind of volume, you ll be spending a bit of money on tooling and resharpening.
> 
> Dust collection. Best get something good w/ plenty of volume. Plan it out so you don t have to do so much work emptying bags, or cleaning up messes when it fills up and backs up into the DC itself.
> 
> If your router needs a clean/dry supply of air don t forget to include a drier AND condensate drain with your air compressor.
> 
> Seems like there was something else….
> 
> Good luck. It s a great investment that usually pays off.
> 
> - Underdog


P.S. There will always be something else… count on it.


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## Marleywoodie

Starting to wonder if we really need 4×4. Big format signage would certainly not be our forte, and things like table tops & such can be pieced together….I'm liking the Laguna IQ 24×36. It turns out a friend (not local) has one fro his guitar business and he speaks highly of both the machine and the company support.

https://lagunatools.com/cnc/iq-series/iq-24-36-cnc/


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## Desert_Woodworker

This is the model that I have. Fantastic machine since 2014 no problems…
You are limited to 24"width but length- you use "tiling"


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## DS

I have never heard someone say "I wish we had a smaller CNC machine".
But I have sure heard the opposite many many times.

Only you can actually evaluate your present needs.
If it turns out to be a good thing, you will likely expand into something bigger at another time.

In the business I am in, (Kitchen Cabinets), the cost is fairly easily validated. Our recent purchase has already paid for itself a couple of times over just in the few months we've had it running. 
Of course, YMMV.



> Starting to wonder if we really need 4×4. Big format signage would certainly not be our forte, and things like table tops & such can be pieced together….I m liking the Laguna IQ 24×36. It turns out a friend (not local) has one fro his guitar business and he speaks highly of both the machine and the company support.
> 
> https://lagunatools.com/cnc/iq-series/iq-24-36-cnc/
> 
> - Marleywoodie


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## DS

From another related thread;
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/235553



> *"If you need a machine and don't buy it, you ultimately find that you have paid for it, but don't have it." *
> Henry Ford
> 
> The key is, IMHO, to really know your business, and to tailor the machine specs to your needs…. with a little room to grow.
> 
> - Mainiac Matt


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## Josh1

Hi I just signed up to this its great.Thought id let you know I do a bit of sighns and chest that type of stuff used to have a cnc shark 24 by 24 that worked great but like other guys said too small!! I now have a laguna 4 by 4 with vacum table very nice worth the money! I use V carve pro very easy to learn if you do like I did . I really had no clue what I was getting into. Dint even know how to get the machine going for a year that is the shark. vectric has a lot of good tutorials on there software that's were I learned pretty much everything. Good luck! its lots of fun!


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## Underdog

I thought of one other thing. 
Training; you'll want it, and need it even more. That includes learning the software, learning tooling, learning to set up the machining, and learning how to run the machine.

It's not usually a thing you learn all in one weekend.


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## oldnovice

I have a Shopbot Buddy PRS Alpha with 2.2 hp spindle and a 24" × 48" ×5" cutting envelope.
This model can be expanded to 40" × 99" × 5" with extensions to the Y axis.

I am pleased with this machine and I use the PartWorks software that came with the Shopbot. The PartWorks software is good for beginners and has shown me what I really want from any additional software I may buy in the future.

My son has used my Shopbot but he uses Fusion 360 for his work on the CNC. Fusion 360 has an adaptive cutting method that reduces the cutting time to about a quarter of what PartWorks provides. He is a CNC machinist, by proffession, and compares the Fusion 360 CAM capabilities favorably with others he has usec.

Fusion 360 is free for students and hobbyist, it's a very good CAD program with a built in CAM package *so maybe I need to learn how to use Fusion 360 as opposed to buying another program.*


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## Marleywoodie

Thanks for reinforcing this, I was coming to that conclusion myself, the confirmation is very useful.



> I thought of one other thing.
> Training; you ll want it, and need it even more. That includes learning the software, learning tooling, learning to set up the machining, and learning how to run the machine.
> 
> It s not usually a thing you learn all in one weekend.
> 
> - Underdog


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