# "Copying" Other LJs Work...Stealing? Rude? Okay? Just Give Credit?...



## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Question for my fellow LJs…

How do you feel about copying another LJs work?

I'm not talking about "inspired by". I'm talking about seeing a project, adding it to your "favorites" and eventually making one as just like it as you can based on the pictures, discription and your skills.

I'm also not talking about just another box, cutting board, etc. I'm talking about a creative idea, such as the design of a lamp, the design of a table or box, etc. While not necessarily unique in that you've never seen a box before, but rather the design is original, original enough that you can pinpoint where/who the design came from.

How about if you know the fellow LJ sells the said item?

Personally…I think the fact that we post our projects (let alone the ability to "favorite") opens them up to copying. Arguably invites others to copy. However, I personally would not want a fellow LJ to copy one of my ideas, post it to LJs and NOT give credit to where they got the idea.

What do you think?


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## chrisstef (Mar 3, 2010)

i think its all in perspective, for me, being a novice at best woodworker, if someone were to copy something ive done i would be flattered. Now on the other hand lets say i was a woodworker whom does this for a living. If my works were copied and sold in that sense id be angry.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I pretty much agree with you. If I post a non-copyrighted design on a public internet forum, I'm pretty much giving up my rights to it as far as I'm concerned. If another LJ copies it and sells it…. well, if I was going to have a problem with that, I shouldn't have posted it in the first place.

I'd probably be at least a little annoyed, though, if someone copied my project and then posted it here as though it were their original design.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the fair thing to do in the case of any original design is to ask the creator/maker/whatever for their thoughts and permission on using it. Some people are fine as long as you ask and, of course, give credit. Some don't even want credit. It all depends on the person.

As a modern furniture junkie, I have watched some of the manufacturers and designers go after knock-offs in a very determined fashion. Some would like no less than suing knock-off makers out of business to insure it never happens again.

While the person may not care or ever find out that you copied them, you open yourself to the possibility that something may come of it or someone may notice and give warning to others of your practices. It's best just to ask the person first before it ever comes to that.

That's my opinion.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

have had my work copied and I have copied others… no big deal… nice to be acknowledged and equally important to acknowledge the origins of the work…


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

I posted my answer to your question in my thread…....


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## HalDougherty (Jul 15, 2009)

I'd be flattered if someone copied my work. Most of my work is a derivative copy… My main tool is a gunstock duplicator. I've got a Fajen catalog from the 1960's and one of his designs was advertized in his catalog as the most copied stock on the market.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

It seems to me, that every once in a while, an idea gets hot and gets copied all over the place.

When I was designing high-end custom kitchens, I would see some of my work pop up in the local trade mags-usually by the builder I did the job for who was advertising his services. For me it was flattering, but, by the same token, by him advertising it, inevitably, many copies and derivitives would turn up shortly afterwards.

I think it is unavaoidable. Even I've been asked to copy, or use inspiriation, from existing designs in new works.

The only time I felt wronged was when some of my work was attributed to a builder who later opened his own shop and advertised the piece I did for him as one of his own pieces. (He even had the nerve to put my work on the cover of his shop brochures.)

Usually, a hot idea has a lifespan - Sometimes weeks, months, or a few years. The classic hot ideas have a lifespan of decades and centuries. I wouldn't mind if some of my work obtained such notariety and recognition, but, that really isn't why I do this work.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I'd be pretty danged proud to have something copied.
Let's see…....What about all the rockers that have been inspired by? (Maloof.)
(Krenov.)
There's another guy named Underhill who has led me to build some stuff after his show.
Now IKEA? That's another issue.
Bill


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I get lots of people copying some of my work but it usually cost them $ 10.00 per plan . I would have a problem if they were building them to sell . Thankfully they do give me credit for being the designer .


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

I agree with what Larry said. I, myself have many, many favorites of LJ's projects, because that's what "favorites" mean. Projects that I look at, and like well enough to "copy", (I would never "copy" exactly), I would call these/this "inspired", or be sure to mention whom, and or where the original idea came from, unless it was my own. You've gotta give credit, where credit is due, and that's common sense rule. At least that' how I was taught. I also agree with what chrisstef said.


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## Durnik150 (Apr 22, 2009)

I think when one posts pictures and descriptions of projects online they are opening themselves up to being copied. However, that does not mean that the person who created that object shouldn't get credit, they should.

I think it would only be polite to say that a cutting board was in the fashion of Degoose or a box was the design of Ventura.

I know that in Ventura's books she goes as far as to state that her designs are hers and that no one has the right to use them to make money. I'm not sure how well it would hold up in court but it would surely be the ultimate in rude to take credit for something that was obviously someone elses unique design.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

I get ideas from other things I see and incorporate what I like into my projects. When I'm thinking of making something I look all around, books, furniture stores, where ever. Like right now, I'm getting closer to finally building that work bench I've always wanted and bought a bunch of books and magazines and picking out what I like. And keeping an eye out for what others have done here. When I post something I've done it is in hopes that others will learn or see something they like in them and do the same thing.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Ecc 1:9:
*What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.*

To have the arrogance to think that you are the first person to come up with an idea seems to me to be a great folly.

At what point does it become plagiarism to put some sticks together so the ends of vertical sticks are on the ground and there is a place that is horizontal to place your behind?

When does that same piece become a table instead of a chair?

If you are speaking of different ways of making an item, ask yourself this: did you invent a new way of cutting the wood you made the project with? Did you invent a new router bit to make a profile that was never seen before?

Good luck with being angry that someone did the same thing you did. Did they do it better? did they let you make it and steal your work by calling it their own?


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## MoshupTrail (Aug 11, 2011)

I would always give credit. If the poster is selling the item and posts it, I don't have a problem making ONE. If you post it, you're giving that much up. I'd give a credit and a URL link. But I wouldn't make more than one without the originator's permission.


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## angrybird (Mar 23, 2012)

i guess people should give credit where its due, but on other hand , if people want to copy to sell, they should make it there own by changing what ever they copy to fit their own taste and skill. just my two cents


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## foneman (Mar 11, 2007)

If you don't want anyone copying your work, DON'T POST IT!!!


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you're missing the point Dallas. Original design is sometimes very easy to recognize and has nothing to do with being the inventor of the materials or process for building it (but sometimes it does). In generalization, no one is going to say they are the inventor of the chair. But, one could say they were the inventor of a particular style… say for instance (since I like modern furniture), Harry Bertoia's wire chairs (up for some debate) or the Eames plywood furniture. You can see those and instantly tell when someone has or is trying to knock them off. No, they did not invent the chair, but they did invent a style of chair (also manufacturing techniques and a few other things).

As a designer myself, I do care when someone takes my ideas and passes them off as their own. I'm not really mad that they copied me; I'm mad because they are taking credit for something they did not do. Now, if we came up with the same idea or design in complete vacuums, then I have no reason be angry and, in fact, I'd actually want to talk to that person to see if they came up with that the same way I did.

*There is nothing new under the sun*

I beg to differ indeed.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

Dallas you couldn,t be more wrong !! Some of us do actually create things that have never been done before . What is so arrogant about that ?


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Human nature being what it is, if it is in the public's eye, someone will copy and claim it ;-( The risk you take.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I wouldnt have any problems with someone copying something I did. I dont really care if they make it and sell it either. Wonder how many of us go into an anitque store or furniture store and take measurments of a piece, or take pictures with our cell phone for later projects? Norm used to do this all the time for the New Yankee Workshop. I generally post things here to give people a glimps at what I have done, and maybe give them some ideas for use themselves.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Often we all come up with something we think is or may be new but it is a more of less simple idea. How likely is it that we actually invented it.
In the last year I have been on both ends of this situation and neither involved any copying. Both involved two different people coming up with similar ideas.

In one case I posted a hinge making process that I hadn't seen before only to discover that Yorkshire Stewart had posted something very similar and using the same central principle long before me. It is a simple common sense idea and I expect it has been independently "invented" many times.

In the other case I posted a "reversible box" a couple of weeks before BritBboxmaker posted a very similar idea. I know for a fact that this also was a simple case of parallel thinking.

Given the number of clever and talented people posting here, this is often going to be the case when plagiarism is suspected. As stated more than once already….. Nothing new under the sun.

Personally I encourage people to my ideas.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Doss and John, I'm not saying that you shouldn't receive credit for what you have done, my point is that 'designing', 'innovation' and 'original work' are much overused euphemisms for plagiarizing some other work long forgotten.
Just because you put a curve with "X" radius next to a straight line which is next to a live edge does not make it original.

Who invented electricity? Edison or Tesla? Edit: (This was said tongue in cheek for those without a sense of humor).
Who invented the telephone?
Did Fredrick Remington invent the style he painted with?
What about George Nakashima? Did he invent 'Sustainable Furniture'?
Did Henry Studley invent the piano? or the work bench or the tool chest?

Again, there is nothing new under the sun


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

BTW, just for the record… electricity was discovered, not invented.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

I understand what Dallas is saying. Most everything is a variation of something before it. to say a certain design is unique or the first of its kind would be impossible. Who really knows what has come out of every shop since the dawn of the craft?

If you were to "copy" a design, I think you should give credit. For the most part it would not bother me to have my work copied. I see how it could offend others, and I can respect that too. As long as we are not talking production runs, it shouldnt be too big a problem.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Again, there is nothing new under the sun

I believe everyone, at some point in thier life, should do something that was previously thought impossible.
In my lifetime, I have done three things which were "impossible". Technically boring, but new and never done before. This innovation happens thousands of times each and everyday.

To say it has all been done already and nothing is new, is to stick your head in the sand and ignore reality.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

All of my designs are copyrighted and that's an attempt to keep potential customers from shopping my plas around to the competition.

If I post a picture of something I built and someone wants to copy it, they're free to do so. The picture only shows parts of it. The devil is in the details. - lol


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

DS251, see my edit,LOL.

Up until 1945 or so, it was generally thought impossible to split the atom, however, it's been happening for billions of years, (or at least 6000 if you are of the fundamentalist persuasion).

Marconi did not invent wireless communication…. it was done with flags and lights and smoke and mirrors centuries before he thought of it.

As Shane says: Everything is a variation on something else.

People here make spoons and boxes and chess sets and shelves and tables and in my case, Texas Lonestars. None of them are new, although the execution and form are unique to each piece. That isn't to say that they are original designs, just variations on a theme.

And by the way, I never in my life said anything was impossible…. I may have thought it, but I never said it. I believe that with enough fortitude, ambition and innate talent anything is possible.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

imitation is the purist form of flattery.


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## carver (Nov 4, 2010)

bottom line for me is to always try and leave ego out of the equation…..end result…....who cares , who cares.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Dallas, I guess we just don't see it the same way… though your response definitely toned down from your original statement (not a bad thing… it helped clarify a little more).

As *DS251* says (or quotes), "To say it has all been done already and nothing is new, is to stick your head in the sand and ignore reality." , is exactly how I think. As an engineer, we are constantly thinking of new ways to do something, new things to make, and new possibilities. To say they have been done is only true in the most vague, general manner in which you can interpret them.

When people tell me that nothing can be new, I quickly realize how fortunate I am to think the way I do and how sad it is for them to be in such a small little box. It's almost as if some people don't realize what happens outside of their small area of knowledge.

Dallas, don't take that as an insult because that is not what it is meant to be. It's just a statement on how differently the two of us think about things.

Hmm… euphemisms… I would agree that maybe innovation can be misconstrued in that manner, but designing and original work usually vary further in terms of usage.

Once again, it comes down to how you define what you are doing that is new. If you're designing a whole new original chair from the combination of lines and curves and surfaces, I would say you can't go as far as to name your new creation a flarnk (I just made that up) instead of a chair and define anything with the same general shape/proportions as a flarnk and expect everyone to agree; but you could say it was a new chair design that you created… and that's all I'm saying.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Marconi did not invent wireless communication* Without Tesla's American patents, Marconi probably would not have invented wireless communication ;-)


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Doss, no insult perceived or intended.

In my opinion, (and it's only my opinion), we have entered into an adult discussion. In such a case there can be no insults either way as long as both parties continue to exchange ideas amicably. 
This is how consensus is achieved.

Interestingly, the subject of design vs variation is something that has been discussed in courts throughout the world for centuries.

Ive worked with and around engineers for much of my life, most of my family have engineering degrees of one flavor or another. I'm the black sheep of the crowd with only a degree in computer science.


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## DIYaholic (Jan 28, 2011)

DY,
You have hit upon a great topic!!! Everyone has their opinion on this subject. Give credit, ask permission for sales pieces. If copyrighted, that's that.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

It almost makes me wonder whether …. there's any benefit … for those who feel strongly (one way or the other) in putting some sort of note in their signature line OR just on their LJ's home page.

For example:

I'd be honored if you wanted to copy my work, or ….
Please do me the courtesy of asking permission to copy my work, or
Feel free to copy my work, but I'd be grateful for the acknowledgement, when you post your project.

I'm perfectly happy honoring people's wishes. Maybe it's just a matter of those who feel strongly … letting those wishes be known.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Picasso said it best and its not a theory, its a fact. Take a design, take the engineering, take the hours and hours of effort spent from some poor soul…………….and "tweek" it.

Those who who take forever to borrow, will never compete against those that steal it.

If anyone wants to "steal" what I have done………

do it, I would be flattered.

as a footnote. It should be a craftsmans duty, to teach what they know, otherwise all the knowledge and wisdom they gain, is buried and rots in a grave……………..and whata waste of time that would be.

"copyrights" r BS…………..patents are what you want.


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## Philzoel (Dec 26, 2011)

At woodworking shows where people sell there wares for profit the woodworkers are very tight with there help. They are not friendly either. I'm not sure that is good idea. Seems to me open door is good for everyone. If I can make one I'm not going to buy one.

Hobby guys like me and you love to share.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

who the %$#@ would have the time to run around and copyright ideas other then a multinational, billion dollar company………….

I could see pursuing a logo and put a copyright on that as that ensures the stamp you pound and burn into a piece is protected (somewhat?)……..

but nice piece of wood, the idea, the moment you realize you are onto something that is working…… share it

Why wouldn't you, unless your a totally uneducated idiot, why wouldn't you share it ?

its fuc$ing wood, not a car, not an engine, not an algorithm

its an art

the original retains its worth

and history repeats


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## gumper (Jan 12, 2012)

For your own use… I would take it as a compliment.

For profit… cut me in.


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

I like to take the base of an idea and change it to a different use or shape.
As an infant you take what your senses tell your brain and put the pieces together. Then you will use your brain and same senses to express the things you have learned.
Every idea has a base or recipe that help make it. Imagination and your reasoning help develop it.
I use this site to get ideas and make to my needs and tastes. I ask questions here to learn from others that know better and have been down the same road.
I hope I offend none along the way.
I am here to learn and enjoy good company.
And anyone can use anything of mine anyway.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

good luck with the cut

bahaha

ya right


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## dkirtley (Mar 11, 2010)

It really depends on the intent, on the behalf of the originator of the idea and the copier. For personal consumption, it is meaningless. The only time copyright, patent, and trademark, have any meaning is in the context of trade. Even then, the protection is only as good as the lawyers you can afford. If someone is going to copy a work, it doesn't take too much variation to make it slip past what can be considered infringement.

When someone says that they made a Maloof chair, it doesn't mean that they made an exact duplicate of a piece of work of Sam Maloof, they mean that they incorporated some of the same style features. It would take some very unique style features that would hold up as being distinctive enough to merit these protections. When talking about stylistic elements, we many times speak in code. It is a mater of brevity among people that are familiar with a body of work.

Just to complicate matters, what happens if I want a Shaker table? As far as I know, there are no Shaker communities making them any more so all of the current designs are a copy. Who owns the rights? Is copying an abandoned design fair game?


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

I have very poor design cababilities but I can usually copy someone else's and really enjoy figuring out how they did it. I ALWAYS try to credit the person I copied it from. I see this as one of the primary benefits of belonging to this site. In my profession it is considered unethical to have 'trade secrets' and this has likely colored my thinking. If anyone is offended by my copying their projects, send me a pm and I will publically apologize and cease and desist. I would be flattered if anyone ever copied any of my projects.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

when I post it copy it…... Please. The reason I post photos is to inspire others.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

For the most part give credit where it is due, all else is fair game. Since people for the most part aren't posting blueprints any copy is an imperfect copy to begin with, copiers are just going for their interpretation of what they are seeing that they like. They may not even be getting the right proportions. If you don't want it copied in any way then don't bother posting it or someone is bound to appreciate it enough to want to make their own and when it comes to wood this is a forum of producers, creators, designers and tinkerers, not buyers for the most part.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

If anyone wants to copy any of my projects, they must be insane.


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## marchbrown (Mar 30, 2012)

im new to this site but will say this a few years ago i had a chair in fine woodwrking magazine. a member of this site tried to recreate it. he did give me credit for it and i found it flattering that someone would try. { in my opinion he missed the mark]. if its something for your own injoyment and you dont plan on selling them i say go for it .but its more fun and enjoyable to design something yourself.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Dallas, interestingly enough, I'm a software engineer (an actual software engineer from an accredited school). You're definitely more of the open source mindset than I am. I do subscribe to that way of coding myself, but there are times when we have to protect what we have created for our competitive advantage… business is such a nasty thing at times.

My whole idea is that you should give credit where it is due. Don't just steal and idea and claim it as your own. Sure, if you "tweak" it enough or use it only as a base or inspiration, then you can claim what you've done; but, just copying someone's work and claiming it's your's is just wrong.

David Kirtley is right as far as I see it. In the context of business, there is a different mindset. But as a community, it's nice for us to share what we've done with others.

Woodworking is difficult enough that great designs alone are not the only impressive part of the process. Show me a work of any great woodworker and if I can copy it, I won't be ashamed to say it was someone else's design and process. I'll still be proud that I was able to construct such a great piece on my own.

Ideas/design/building/finishing … all of these are something you can be proud of just make sure you give credit where it is due.

And Rex, I laughed when I read your comment b/c that's what I'm thinking almost all the time.


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

is there anything that done that hasn,t been done before?i,m with you REX that was funny


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I think when people post a project that is finished, they should probably expect that other individuals are going to have their own go of the project if it is well liked. I guess where I think a little restraint should be practiced is when someone is posting blogs on the progress of the work they designed and are still working on. I think it isn't an ethical concern as much as a question of good taste. If someone is 2/3s through the design and headache and someone else grabs the idea and beats them to the project post, I think it is kind of tacky to steal the original designer's thunder. Again, not a question of legalities, just a showing of respect to the designer.

David


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Anyone would be annoyed if someone exactly copied their original work and passed it off as their own, that's obvious.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

After more than 20 years of writing software for a large software company, I can only hope that we are more of a sharing community.  I understand that business is warfare, but the patent process has been twisted into a perverse version of its original intent. I have my name on some patents. I really don't understand why a corporate lawyer choose these particular algorithms and not others. I guess they try to predict what will do the most damage to others and provide for the most successful future law suits.

We are even told to be careful of what patents we look at online in our own time, lest we be accused of hunting for ideas to "steal".


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

WOW! I didn't really expect some many responses! Thanks!

As you might have guessed the question is of particular concern to me. A fellow LJ has posted several samples of a military style shadow box that I have favorited several times as I thought they were very cool. The design is in my opinion very unique and if you have seen this LJs work you would recognize where the idea came from. If you follow any of my other posts you may know that I am a Air Force officer. I have a senior NCO retiring who has severed with me for over 10 years. I wanted to make a shadow box for her. I contacted said LJ to see if they could make one for me and they said yes, but the price was about four times higher than I had in my very very small units budget. Not that the price wasn't unreasonable, in fact if was very reasonable, just outside my budget. So, knowing I had these shadow boxes favorited and such, I decided to make one myself. While mine will not be "perfectly identical" to those made by this other LJ, it will be close enough that I think its closer than "inspired by". It is turning out well…maybe not as "perfect" as I'd have hoped but better than I feared. Well enough that once it is presented I suspect I will be asked to make more. If I am asked to make more I will do it for a fee of not much more than expenses.

Given the feed back, I will post it when done, and give FULL CREDIT to the LJ that inspired it.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I try to learn at least one new thing every day and I am always the first to make note and give a shout out to the ones who inspire my meager attempts.

Even though I don't see eye to eye with Doss or others, I do understand the use of copyrights and patents.

Much of the hardware I have designed is patented and copyrighted and some of it uses proprietary software that is also protected, however, it's my feeling that if I don't want it copied, I don't put it and the schematics on line on a public forum for all the world to see.

This woodworking forum is a place for craftsmen and newbies alike to show off what they can, will and have done. Most are looking for some kind of acceptance and acknowledgement of their skills or looking for tools to learn with. (Tools as in skills, not necessarily wood/metal/plastic items).

Rob, I think you are providing a wonderful service for the NCO.

To everyone else, I apologize if I seemed to have come across as abrasive. As Doss surmised, I am a believer in open source and have done my share for Source Forge, Firefox and Linux over the years. I have also worked on projects for proprietary manufacturers that cannot be disclosed.
Jeez, I even ran a computer repair business for about 3 years and sold my knowledge to the consumer who could have saved time and money by looking up the problem online and finding the fix. (There's your freebie for the day)!


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Hey Rob,

I'm with the group that says that if you don't want it copied then don't post it.
I agree that credit where credit is due.
Reading your last response it's pretty easy to see what project and who you were talking about.
The only surprise to me is that you had sticker shock.
The man has a link to his Etsy store on his home page, it's pretty easy to find out what the cost is.

I guess it just feels to me that you are looking for "redemption" or something from everyone else on here. lol

If you plan to copy it then do it. But don't pussyfoot around looking for everyone else to tell you it's all right to copy something that someone else came up with and is making money at.

Mike.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I post here for the sole purpose of sharing. I believe its what makes this site great. Why would you post here otherwise? I copy lots of idea's. I will often post that right in that project's comments.


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Mike,
Thanks for the bluntness…honest…I mean it…I think you are right about the "redemption" thing…

I did not have sticker shock….I might have had sticker hope when I inquired, but I did not have sticker shock (my bosses did, but I figured it would be in the range quoted). While I am essentially a "hobbiest" I do on occasion make commissioned pieces so I am very aware of not only cost of materials but also the time associated with what appears to be a "simple" project.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

The patent office uses a criteria to determine if an idea is new or innovative. It is called the non-obviousness test.

Before a solution to a particular problem exists, the answer is not obvious. But after the solution is put forward, of course, the answer seems obvious. One could say, that solution is obvious, why should he get a patent for that? But the solution was NOT obvious until the solution was put forward. Thus the non-obviousness of the idea.

Also, I subscribe to the theory that there are only two ways to gain knowledge in this world. 1) You can draw from the existing base of knowledge from others. Books, Videos, LJ's, magazines, etc. or, 2) You can devise an experiment and try for yourself.

Most who say it's all been done before really never have tried the second method.

Personally, I LOVE the second method. This is why the third violin I ever made was Paduak. To my knowledge, it had never been done before and I wanted to see if the stunning tonal qualities of Paduak would enhance the lower registers that seemed to be lacking in the traditional Euro Maple violins.

The result was amazing! Did I invent a violin? No. It had been done before. In fact, I used a published pattern to make my violin molds.

As far as I know, Paduak had not been used to make a violin before. As far as I know, the sound of my Paduak violin is unique in this world. It's kinda cool actually.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

If somebody liked my ideas enough to want to copy them I'd be flattered, and somewhat shocked… I would certainly expect attribution as the source of the idea as I try dilligently to give credit where credit is due when I use someone else's ideas… It's just the decent thing to do…


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

dbhost - thanks for the statement. That was more of what I was thinking of, decency, not really the strictly legal aspect. I personnally have no issue, as others have mentioned, of going "oohh I really like how he did that curve, shape, top, joint, contrast, etc" or in essentially copying a DP table, or a workbench, as I do a piece of artistic nature. Admittedly, I don't know why I think of them differently. It can certainly be argued there is no difference in effort, skill, etc required to design and build a DP table verses a very unique, artistic box. I guess the difference (as I think someone else said) is in how I look at how or why I post. If its a jig, workbench, DP table, etc it is more to help others achieve the same results without the learning curve that maybe I wnet through….helping others in the craft. If its more of a piece of "art" (and know I don't have a black-and-white answer for when its becomes more art than functional) I'm probably posting it more to show-off.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

If I copy something someone has made, its because its something I like and want for myself. For me woodworking is a hobby so I'm not likely to copy to sell.
On the other hand if someone wants to copy my work for sale, then more power to them. 
If I felt strongly enough about a project I made, and was concerned about copying. I would have it copyrighted before I posted it.
As for another LJ'er copying my work and posting it as a project without giving credit to my design, to me its just another project someone has done. Hopefully his/her skill level is better than mine.


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## Philzoel (Dec 26, 2011)

It IS NOT illegal to copy anything for personal use. Copy away. What's the problem?


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Because doing the "right thing" isn't always about the law.


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## Philzoel (Dec 26, 2011)

Your right of course, but I am not worried much about dummies any more. If they copy me great!


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

Great Discussion Rob!
It seems obvious to me that, once shared, an idea is no longer my own.
I have no problem with that.
As I've written before, a candle loses none of its flame by lighting another candle…
With that having been said, I've had two (at least) very specific techniques "borrowed" here on Lumberjocks and got no mention or thanks at all…
It was by a couple of "Valued and Respected Members" of our community too!
I was surprised… confused… and more than a little frosted.
But the lesson was not lost on me, it was just another reminder that people are not always the way they seem… especially on the internet…


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Hope that wasn't me, Mike. Nah, I'm not "valued and respected". LOL


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

No Andy, it wasn't you Amigo… it happened before you joined…
The hardest part, was reading everybody congratulating the "Borrowers" on their "Great Idea"... That took serious forbearance…


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Well I posted the project in question, giving full credit to Pat Cavanaugh for the design, even sent him a PM.

Maybe I did want some redemption…but it really was a bit of an ethical dilemma for me. As I've said, you don't have an ethical dilemma choosing between right and wrong, you have it when choosing between shades of gray. On one had I felt like you all pretty much have said…if its posted to a open forum then its up for imitating but I wanted credit to be given where it was due. Thank''s for the help.

Thanks Pat for the idea.

Oh yeah…here it is http://lumberjocks.com/projects/64150


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## JoeButler (Mar 11, 2008)

Sorry…I'm late to the dance! LOL Very interesting discussion!! And something I have been wondering about lately. I have absolutely NO creative design abilities at all! But I can follow a set of plans and produce something. Everything I have ever built has been from other people's plans. (I guess that opens up another discussion…am I a real woodworker if I can only build from other peoples plans?)

If I buy plans, say from Woodcraft/Rocker or in any of the multiple woodworking magazines I purchase each month, what are my options? Can I only build just one? What if I take it into work, show it off and someone wants to buy it? Can I sell it legally without breaking any laws? What if 10 people want one?

My wife turns pens and sometimes sells them. Is she breaking the law? I'm sure that every pen that she makes has been made before by hundreds, if not thousands, of pen turners. Does she have to try and trace down the first person to make that particular pen and give credit?

I kinda understand what Dallas is saying. In the thousands(?) of years that ******************** sapiens have been creating things in wood, are there really any things that haven't been make before? A box is (usually) six sided. A bed, 4 posts and a place to lay your body. A chair, 4 legs (usually) and a seat. The trim details/woods used will differ, but the basic construction is the same.

DS251, at first glance, I found your Paduak violin a good example of something that maybe had never been done before. But I have to wonder that in all the centuries that voilins have been produced, that violin makers haven't tried every wood available in search of that perfect sound? It seems strange that no one has ever thought of using Paduak before you? No offense meant…just a question in my mind.

Today's workworkers seem such a pale comparison to what I understand the woodworkers of a hundred plus years ago to be. (My opinion only! Sorry if it offends anyone!!) As another poster pointed out, knowledge not passed on dies and rots in the grave. So much knowledge appears to be lost. (Based on a few magazines asking "What this mystery tool is?") Not many of us can dedicate a lifetime perfecting our craft.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I agree with Don W. Elvis Presley was asked how he felt about people imitating him. He said it was the greates compliment he could have received. If you don't want someone to use or even sell your idea then get a copyright or patent and brand it as such. Sell them yourself and don't post them. I suppose it really couldn't bother you if the rest of us copied something and used them in our shops or in our homes. What you don't know can't upset you. When you find out ….well, that can't happen. If I post it then I have intended to either flatter you or upset you. I do think you should give credit for the design to the right person. don't claim that for yourself.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Joe, you may be right that someone has built a Padauk violin before. Traditionally, though, violinmakers have used the best tonewoods available to them. e.g. The American Fiddle was based on European patterns, (with minor changes), but were commonly built with woods available on the American Plains. (Often, Pine was used)
We currently live in a time where we have exotic woods available to us from all around the world.

When I set out to build a violin, I first thought to see if I could build one of any decent quality at all. 
Then I began studying how they are traditionally built and how they can be analyzed with modern technology and I sought to make improvements to what I perceived were deficiencies.

I surmised that Padauk, which rings like a bell when tapped and has similar densities and weight as European Maple, could be substituted with improved sound quality as a result.

The experiement was extremely successful, but not without its drawbacks and challenges.

If someone else were to make a Padauk violin, it would not bother me in the least. I claim no ownership of this technique and I freely shared my experience here on LJ's. 
On the other hand, If someone got ahold of my actual instruments and claimed they made them, I would have a serious problem.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Years ago I was an engineering student at a big ten college and took a course in automotive engineering taught by one of the all time top engine designers of the day, F. Gibson Butler. He was a key player in the developement of the first succesful OHV V-8 … the Oldsmobile 350 Rocket. At the twilight of his carreer he led the design team for the first succesful American 16 valve, 4 cyl. engine…. the Quad Four

He said something that forever stuck with me…. and I paraphrase….

"If you ever have a truely new idea and invent something that is purely original, you will be one of a very few people in human history to do so. 99.9% of new ideas and inventions are simply a new twist on an existing idea."

Basically, much of what we call "invention" today is really "innovation"

I find it quite interesting to look at the historical arguments that the founding fathers and framers of the US constitution had concerning whether or not the government should have the power to issue patents. Nearly half of them were against it, and their reasons are quite interesting.

The total disfunction and abuse of the patent system today bears testimony to their misgivings.

That said, I have a secret ambition to invent and patent some nifty wiz-bang gizmo b4 I die.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

Issac Newton - "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants…"


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

David, A great quote and so true about lots of areas of life.


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## freighttrain (Mar 21, 2011)

i think if you post it on the web site it is asking it to be copied but i agree one should give credit where credit is due. it is just the right thing to do to thank some one for their help and acknowledge them for there accomplishments.i do remember in high schiool physics we were taught nothing is ever created or destroyed only the arrangement of atoms is changed!but as you can tell by my spelling i wasnt paying alot of attension in school lol. i love this site because everyone here helps each other learn woodworking and i think thats what we all love anyways.thanks for all the info you all put on here i learn something every time i look on here .


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## IndianJoe (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm new at wood working but been a wood caver a long tine and when some one copy's one of my works it makes me fell good that they like my work that much to try to make one that looks like mine and if there's looks nicer then that make me mad "No LOL " it's just make me want to work a little harder to mike mine batter then there's 
And I thank that is what made me a good wood caver and I know there are batter cavers then me .
And ant that how we all got started we seen some one work and wanted to make one I know that is why I like "LJ" is to get to look at others work and mybe just mabe get to make something that looks good.
And even the first wood work can not make box to look like there first box two pace's of wood never look the same just close.

P.s I hope my wording is right I have a hard time with reading and spelling and copy my work it make's me fill good and if your looks nicer so be it .


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

I thought idea behind these wood working forums was to share information, ideas, and methods. If one isn't willing to do that what's the point of being here?


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Yes, I think that is exactly the point.

If you post a project on here, or even blog about how you made it, don't be surprised that your sharing has enabled and emboldened someone else to attempt to make something similar.

By sharing it in a public forum you are putting it in the public domain and forfeiting any proprietary rights you may have to the information.

There are many things which I've made as commission pieces for designers who have copyrighted thier designs. Those items will not be shared on this forum since they are proprietary and I do not own the rights to them.


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## gavinzagreb (Jan 19, 2012)

Certainly I have copied the look of some things for my own projects, but I have never made an exact copy, and always give credit where credit is due.
I like the sharing nature of this site and have only seen a few instances where people have gotten upset by others making a copy of their project.
Having said that, recently I came up with an idea for a product that many people on Lj's make, but I have searched this site and google and can't find any example of it being done before. Amazing really because it is kind of obvious considering how many versions of this same product have been produced.
I really want to sell original stuff, but I also want to share the idea to an extent because I think a lot of people could have some fun with it. When I make it, I'll post it, but probably politely ask that it doesn't get copied exactly. Not that I could or would take any action if it was copied.

I notice there are some people on this site that do woodworking for a living who don't actually post any of the products they make, which is fair enough I guess if you are trying to protect your income.


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## robbiethewood (Apr 3, 2012)

if anyone copies any of my work i sure hope the make it better than i did


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## DamnYankee (May 21, 2011)

Gavinzagreg - I've noticed that as well - that the professional woodworkers (particularly well known ones like Marc Spaganolli aka wood whisperer) - have very little if any projects posted.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

By sharing it in a public forum you are putting it in the public domain and forfeiting any proprietary rights you may have to the information. DS251

That by itself is not true.

*gavinzagreb*, if you don't want anyone to copy it, you could always protect yourself with a design patent (relatively cheap as far as the patenting process goes) and, to some extent, a copyright.

The problem with patents is that you have to be willing and financially backed enough to fight the infringement.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Doss, you are correct. My assumption is that people are putting projects in the public domain without the benefit/protection of a copyright or patent.

If it is placed into the public domain prior to having those protections, you would forfeit the right to protect it later as it is already in the public domain.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I was just clearing it up *DS251*. Thanks for acknowledging. The problem that arises from that would be that people start thinking they can just copy if it's in a public forum which could get them into legal trouble.

The point is (at least for me), "Always assume that the work you are looking at is protected in some manner and ask permission to use it [if you are making a copy or something very similar]."

I say very similar, but mean the same. Some people will change the finish or materials and say that's different enough even though the item looks exactly the same.

I am always on the safe side of using other's work. Usually all I take from other people's works are finishing tips and techniques. That's where this community helps me a lot. I can read about how to do things or ask questions about certain things and everyone is glad to help.

I have had some of my stuff used before and it infuriated me (photography). I put a simple line in my gallery that said I am more than happy to send you a high-res copy of my work for free if you just ask for it and do not use my work unless I give permission. A group I did free freelance stuff for then used my work in an event poster as the main image without asking or giving credit. That will make your blood boil.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Now, all that said, Deisgn Patents are notoriously easy to defeat. There is a percentage number of differences that must be made to qualitfy as a different design and it is quite frankly a bit weak.

In most professional circles a design patent is nearly useless and is looked at as a point of pride as much as anything else. It is rarely enforced since the actual percentage of changes is a bit subjective to discern.

I've seen companies sue each other only to see them merge prior to completion of the suit. I've seen products become unavailable due to infringement claims, when the patent holder's product is inferior and not suitable for the same purpose as the loser of the battle. (A great inconvenience to anyone relying on that product as no replacement can, nor will be had.)


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Eh you can try to copy me, chances are though, I may have unconsciously copied someone else, who umm unconsciously copied someone else. Yes I have my known influences, but at the same time I have a style all my own, which um is probably just a cross of some other styles….

Now if you are building something for yourself, it's probably cool, if they sell them, and you are building them to sell them, then that comes down to trade marks and patent laws…


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*DS251*, I agree with you on how easy they are to defeat. I know all too well the problems with patents [in general]. You have to be willing to challenge [sue] someone for "stealing" your work. That alone can be reason enough to not even bother.

I work in technology (software engineer) and I know we don't patent a lot of our items (hardware and software) simply because the field moves too fast and suing everyone is too expensive. If we were a huge company (think Apple, Microsoft, or Google), then it would work out well for us b/c we could just bury companies in paperwork or lengthy trials that would burn up too much cash.

Patents (as I see them) are for those who have the disposable income to protect them or those that want to sell their ideas to someone else in order to make money.


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## Dwain (Nov 1, 2007)

People! This is a woodworking site. People SHARE. As has been said, if you don't want it copied, with or without proper recognition, then don't post it. Period. I have copied others, and have given them credit, and thanks! I have never copied to sell. That crosses a line. All of this stuff about copyrights and patents is crap. If you are thinking of getting a copyright or a patent, you should forget about posting things here.

For me, I save things I like and occasionally, I build them for personal use. If I build something that is fantastic enough to post here (I haven't yet, but I hope to), then I will give all credit for design to the person I took it from, heck, I would even link to the original idea. (I see that a log with jigs and fixtures).

What it boils down to is this, if you think it's wrong, don't do it. IF you aren't sure, don't take credit for it, and if it isn't your idea…never…never make money off of it.

Just my two cents. I'm ever thankful for Lumberjocks.


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## Everett1 (Jun 18, 2011)

I say it's fine, as it still requires the sweat to make it


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Wow! We have patent attorneys!


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

*Dwain*, you're missing the point on why DS251 and I are talking about these things. It has a lot to do with the general purpose of this thread and earlier posts. We're not talking about patents and copyrights as a way to discourage people; we're just making sure people are aware of the things that are out there that can be a possible problem for those that are copying or those that want to protect their work.

I agree that if you don't want it copied, don't share. I also agree that the purpose for sharing is to inspire, provide a plan, or just to plain show off and that you should do it for any of these reasons any time you see fit.

What I don't want to do is advise someone that it's okay to just copy and do whatever with it. It's not. That could step someone into some deep trouble with the "FREE LEGAL ADVICE" they received in this Lumberjocks thread. 

I went over this with another member recently that was selling copied versions of woodworking books under the thought they they were just charging money for the media (CD) and time it took to burn and ship the book. In other words, they thought if they just gave the book away for free they were good to go. That is not the case.

I'm not saying I'm an expert in law, but I deal with enough of this kind of stuff daily to know the pitfalls that advice on the internet can lead you into.


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