# Addendum to "You've got to try this"



## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

One of the subject discussed on the "You've got to try this" multiple faceted conversations was a rationale for and against the metric system of measurement.

Here are 2 pictures and a simple question: Which measuring instruments are easier to read?




No prizes, no pressure, just a general question for thought.

You all have a great day.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

mm
no doubt

Dennis


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Roger,
I have a tough time with metric, and not being familar with it also, just give me the other one…...lol.
It's what I've learned, and it's what I know…Took me a long time to realize that a meter is longer than a yard


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## FredG (Apr 11, 2008)

For right handed people the yellow tape measure will be, like many others, upside down in use.
The white one is for left and right handed people. So white wins.
Second picture.
No need for half millimeters. Inches up to a sixteeth. Draw.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

Back in 1959 we were introduced to the metric system for 1 quarter in high school. I never heard much about it until I checked in here and found that everybody else in the world uses it except the good old USA.
The US is quickly becoming a third world nation. Pretty soon everyone will be heading south to Mexico to take advantage of their welfare system or if this global warming thing kicks in, we will be in Canada teaching them to say ******************** Howdy y'all. Sign me up for that socialized medicine. Yee Haa! The south shall rise again!


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Metric has it's place and the use of base 10 (the multiples of ten - 0.001, 0.01, 0.1, 1, 10, 100, 1000 etc.) like our money, is simple to use. The problem is that we are really used to fractions. It's not easy to show 1/8 of a cm, dm, or M ! ;0)
I do like white for a tape measure though.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i can work in either
but don't convert well

so i lay two together
to get the other one


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

Works ok with whiskey bottles I guess… ;0)


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I use English Engineering Units in the shop, simply because of the ubiquity of that style of measuring tools. In the lab, in school, we were all metric. All electromagnetic theory and design I did was metric…until I took the device into the shop to have it made, then it had to be converted to inches. Silly, plus it takes dimensioning and tolerancing to a whole new level. We were spin- balancing a large device at work (4000+ pounds) and the units for the moment of inertia were slug-feet squared. I just looked at the equipment like I'd stepped into the twilight zone for a moment. I was thinking kilogram-meter squared, since all my college edumacation was metric.

I think where the US fell down on the metric system was the canning industry. The people who design cans (seriously) look at height and width to develop a can that looks "right" for the product so contained. For a good example, look at Budweiser cans and then Michelob Ultra cans. The Ultra is a tall skinny can, ostensibly to make people think they'll stay skinny drinking it.

Anyway, for metric conversion back in the day, people cried like little kids because they didn't want to compare 355 mL to 12 ounces, or comparison shop can weights when they are 340 grams Vs 454 grams…since that's 12 oz Vs 16 oz. I say Americans are mathematically lazy. Of course, that's not an isolated trait- the ancient Greeks called the bugs centipedes because they stopped counting at 14- the minimum number of legs for the critter.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

lilredweldingrod:
A lot of truth in what you say - who knows?

Atomjack:
I went through the change to metric in England during the early 70's. Trying to convert some of the formulas and dimensions was a No No. It did not take long for people to make the change and most thought it was easier than they expected. You soon find out that a lot of the Imperial system does not make a lot of sense and is that system is pretty well dying.
There are many examples where the US got stymied to change and a lot of it WAS due to sales strategy and perception.
One thing where people have the wrong concept is that you DO NOT convert dimensions from one system to the other because yoour eyeballs will never be able to read all the decimal points the would be conversions produced.
It is not really a hard thing to get your head around and ignoring it will make us self contained country that uses non conformist measurements, we'll have no world customers.

Jack1:
Give up your gallon of whisky and go for 5 Litres - its more!!!


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## chaim (Mar 10, 2008)

I moved to a metric country so I had to get used to it! After a couple of years I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to stay with the English system?
Perhaps so they can boast "I can add fractions!" 
Seriously, I've heard complaints by shop forman on the pro forums that they can't find workers who can add and use a ruler properly anymore.
I think it's time to move on unless you want to revert and start weighing things in "stone" like an old Scottish girl oh mine told me.
LOL
Chaim


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

Both systems are equally valid. A self invented system would be too so long as you knew equivalents of other systems you might need to translate to.


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## miles125 (Jun 8, 2007)

""Perhaps so they can boast "I can add fractions!""

That's sort of a misnomer. Both systems have fractional parts. You could say two millimeters is one fifth of a centimeter. And one third of a meter is 333.33 millimeters. But both systems need to be calculated to decimal equivalents of any fractions for accuracy in math purposes.


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm old enough to have learnt both systems here in the UK. When I left school I did a 4 year engineering apprenticeship and then worked as a Design Draughtsman where I also used both systems. I'm comfortable with both of them which is just as well as all the best tools are made in the US or Canada. So as well as having to pay the import tax on top of the cost of the tool, I've also got to buy an English set of Allen keys and wrenches etc. to adjust them with. 

In terms of readability, my vote goes to the white tape measure. I hate trying to read steel rules unless they are the satin chrome ones.


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## Justin1110 (Apr 9, 2010)

I've used imperial for ever but after i started trades school this year I had to start using both because half the machinery is imperial and others is metric. so i find they are both easy to read. I rather imperial tape and as for color i don't find it really maters to me.


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## terrilynne (Jun 24, 2010)

#1


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

I think I want mine in chartreuse to match my thong…..


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Sounds like a trick question from someone who grew up with the wrong ruler.


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## Splinterman (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey Red Neck,
You are big a worry Mr….)

Hey Roger,
White, Yellow…Imperial, Metric….Rule or Tape…does not matter…an accurate end result is the desired criteria.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That yellow one with the multi-colors is great. What brand it it? It is by far the easiest to read.


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, I like that yellow one as well.

As far as metric vs. SAE I only use metric when forced to and prefer the American standard but I don't think it will kill me if/when they change over. I will just have to learn the new system and it looks easy enough to do.

The thing that sticks in my mind is I feel no need at all to be like everybody else. This whole "the world must come together" or "Lumberjocks is bringing us all together" is BS to me. I like the way things are and I am capable of choosing who and when I want to come together with others. I don't need that chosen for me just to be politically correct.

What brand is that yellow tape with the red and black? Lee Valley? I want one


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

"only from my cold drunk hand…" ;0) actually I have no problem with metric. Industry just didn't want to tool up and the government let them get away with it. There are some proportion issues that aren't as clear in metric, i.e. the golden rectangle for example, (1: 1+√5∕2 or approximately 1:1.618). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rectangle


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

*Those who like the yellow tape need to visit Harbor Freight * $1.99 will get you the tape measure of your dreams. lol

*Hey Splinterman* - Is that really you? We all heard you were a figment of our imagination and the brainchild of the Degooses' - Lazy Larry and Lazy Susan - she's a real head turner


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

WEIRD!


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

most have a hard time with both

pick one,

if you make a mistake,

blame the other


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

harbor Freight!!??? I'm gonna start to like them )


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

didn't a space robot crash on some planet a few years back because the american engeneers used imperial in their calculations while the brits used metric? oops…

neway, i think i could get used to imperial just like you can get used to the smell of a next door pig farm.
but on most of my machines there are both methods and just by the looks the metric seems more fine and clear.
at eyesight.
the imperial gives me the impression that every number is a calculation, thats everything but an effectrive way of working rapidly and clearly. doesn't appear much more evolved than the roman number system


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Yes, but it keeps you sharp as a tack which is good for long term brain health  Anyone can easily move the decimel point a place or 2 without much thought.

As far as space craft outsourcing of calcualtoins, we should do them inhouse ;-))


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I can work in either system and like both. I can easily convert them back and forth with a calculator. Each one has it's own advantages and *I would not like to be forced* by the government to convert to the metric system.

One thing that really gets on my nerves is when European chisel manufacturers call a 6mm chisel a 1/4 in, an 8mm a 5/16, and a 10mm a 3/8, ect. Some people who don't know metric will order these thinking they are getting a 1/4 in when it's only 6mm, ect.

If you want a 1\4 inch chisel then you want a 1/4 inch chisel - that's common sense.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

I hail back to the days when I was working in a garage specializing in Imported cars. We worked on British, French, German, Italian and Spanish cars, to name but a few.
Very few had fasteners sized by Iimperial standards, many were metric based and a few British cars still used the old Whitworth standards.
We had to have tools in all three systems.
What a PAIN!
However, I took to the Metric standards very quickly and would still be using it in my woodworking shop if my tools weren't scaled in inches and if my supplies came in metric quantities and sizes.
One tool I prize is the electronic caliper which will read in fractional inches, decimal inches or in millimeters.
Even after I set it for, say decimal inches, A measurement can be converted after scaling.
Otherwise trying to convert is madness.
One of the goofiest things I ever heard on this subject was from a guy who said, "Huh! So, if I want an inch of somethin', Ah gotta ask fer twennyfivepointfour millimeters?" 
DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

ddwwb


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

check out this link about a near-disaster of a commercial airlines flight in a new Boeing 767. the section on "Refueling" shows what happens when we're not all on the same page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Conversion is a pointless pursuit of disaster! Use one or the other.


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't think one is easier to read than the other. I am more used to fractional. There is so much metric material and machines in the woodworking industry, I guess we need to get comfortable with both. 1/4" ply is called 1/4" whether it is 5mm or 5.5. Then you can have either a loose fit or a really sloppy fit when you make a 1/4" dado. I've had to buy some metric tooling to avoid issues like these that pop up. The 1/4" ac I have been buying recently is actually 6.5mm making a whole new set of problems. Whatever happened to 7/32"? European manufacturers seem sick of providing us with fractional tooling so whether we like it or not, we need to get comfortable with metric.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Bravo Topamax, that is indeed the key.

Colin: I agree entirely.

Unfortunately the US has an idea that it can invent an American Metric System and not use the official spellings of the unit. The official spellings are there for a good reason, Metre means only one thing while Meter can mean a lot of different things - gas meter, meter out punishment etc., and the Metric separator is a Comma because nothing else is a comma, but point/dot can mean different things: I came to the Point, it's rude to Point, He went to the far Point, what's the Point, I see your Point etc.
The other part of the IS Metric system is to provide rationalization and clarity, thus avoiding mistakes. So another question is why we should "bastardize" the official worldwide SI Metric System to a very "local" version prone to errors?


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## rivergirl (Aug 18, 2010)

I love this! LOLOL I guess the question, "which is easier to read is a bit misleading." One can only actually "read" anything if they are literate in the language. So, the metric ruler really is more visually appealing to me, but most Americans can't really read it with full comprehension. However, I bet after seeing both rulers side by side, most people wish they were literate in, and had reason to utilize that lovely metric ruler.  Nice post !


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

rivergirl:
I'm pretty sure that you would find it very easy going to the Metric System - as will others.

I keep hearing references to the European Metric system, what about Canada, Australia China, Russia, Japan and a hundred other countries which are nowhere near Europe. Don't forget this is truly a functioning world-wide system, and I'm pretty sure the Egyptians don't use Cubits anymore. 
The premise is that if everyone uses the IS Metric system to design and build parts and assemblies, then you should be able to sell them to any other country and know they will fit and not be odd sizes.
Does anyone know how tall that French gift to our nation is - the Statue of Liberty build by the French to metric standards …........ How many metres tall is it? )


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## terrilynne (Jun 24, 2010)

They-tried-to-teach-us-the-metric-system-back-in-the-60s.
I-did-not-get-it-then-and-am-not-about-to-change-now.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Abbot and Topamax:

The tape you like so much is a Cen-Tech, Quick Find, 12' x 3/4" from HF


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## Abbott (May 10, 2009)

Yeah, I piked up a 16' yesterday for $2.99


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## Brit (Aug 14, 2010)

This all goes to show there is a strong case for using story sticks and relative dimensioning.

I'm reminded of a quote by RUMI who said:

*"Beyond right and wrong, there is a field. I will meet you there."*


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