# Advice on building Kitchen Cabinets - New Member



## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

Hello all,

I am a new member and this is my first post. My home was severly damaged by Hurricane Michael last October and I have been working diligently to repair my hoe. I have the home to the stage where I need to start planning on building the replacement cabinets. I have never built any cabinets, so I am looking for advice anywhere I can find it. I have a series of questions that I would like to ask, but first, I will give soem details as to what I want to build.

I need to make a lower and upper row of cabinets for the kitchen, as well as an Island. I will also need cabinets for both bathrooms. Some of the upper cabinets for kitchen will have inset glass doors. All cabinets sitting on floor will have granite place as hard surface top.

1. Any advice on where to purchase lumbar for this project? I assume that I cant walk into home depot and pick up the lumbar that will be needed.

2. What type of lumbar should I use? Oak? Pine? Cherry? Maple? etc? Any pros and cons would be appreciated.

3. I have the old cabinets so I have measurements already in place, and will be using the same dimensions to fill the same footprints.

4. Most of the cabinets I have looked at, are wood framed with a sort of particle board backing. Is this normal? Should I use this type backing(Decking) or should I look for cabinet grade sheets of wood?

I have many more questions, but this will be a great start. Thank you!


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

The first thing you need to do is go to cabinetplanner.com and purchase the software. It will allow you to lay out your kitchen and generate all the cut lists you need for your cabinets.

The cabinets I built are all 3/4 oak plywood carcasses with 3/4 solid oak face frames, 5 piece raised panel doors doors and slab drawer fronts. Drawer boxes can be made of 1/2 inch poplar or 1/2 inch baltic birch plywood. I have had no luck routing dovetails in plywood so box joints were my choice. If you use solid hardwood you can dovetail the drawer boxes. Drawer bottoms are 1/4" plywood - birch is a good choice.

You can use any wood you want for the face frames. Also any plywood for the boxes will work but 3/4 is probably the best choice.

The cabinetplanner.com software will help you design and understand the construction of the cabinets a lot. I do not have any interest in the company or software other than using it for my first cabinet project and have been using it ever since. It will pay for itself in wood savings with the optimized cut lists and eliminating errors.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

The box store cabinets use MDF but that fives you very minimal savings. I would definitely use plywood for the boxes and solid wood panels for the exposed ends where appearance matters.

For the doors you can go with many options. 5 piece doors with flat panels (bead board, solid wood, plywood or raised panels or you can go with solid slab doors. Drawer fronts are normally solid wood with maybe a routed edge to match the doors. There are router bits for cutting the doors before glue-up.

To assemble the boxes consider pocket screws. There are easy to use and give you good results. No glue is necessary for the boxes. I normally use a screw every 8-10 inches with is 5-6 screws on each joint.

Shelves can be adjustable and Kreg makes a shelf pin drilling jig that works great. Also they make jigs for installing the hardware like knobs, pulls and drawer slides. Kreg is a great resource for cabinet tools, clamps and jigs.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

On the face frames if you make individual boxes and individual face frames they make special screws to connect the frames together. There is a clamp that will clamp one face frame to the next for installation. They give you drill guides and then the screws are installed in the drilled holes.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

There are many options on hinges and Kreg has jigs to help drill if you want the concealed hinges.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

I had a guy from Arkansas that does custom cabinetry and fine woodworking and is also a spokesperson for Kreg Tools. You can easily find him on the Kreg Tool videos. He was a mentor for me when I was building my cabinets. I guess I am sorry of passing along the favor here as best I can. If you need to talk in person feel free to PM me your number and we can talk.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

before starting on building, i would take time to compare costs between what it would take to make your own versus what you could get ready made cabinets for.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

Prefinished plywood boxes, screwed together with wood screws. Personally would skip the pocket holes on the boxes.

If you don't have an understanding of frameless, I would go face frame.

Consider subbing out doors and drawer fronts if you don't have the proper machinery to make them.

I just use 1×6 pine, pocket holed together with melamine bottoms for drawer boxes. I would highly recommend Blum tandems for slides and there hinges as well.

Choice of wood is up to you. Just remember a kitchen gets abused. Softer wood doesn't hold up as well.

Good luck.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> before starting on building, i would take time to compare costs between what it would take to make your own versus what you could get ready made cabinets for.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


What I usually do is look for the scratch and dent premade cabinets at the big box stores, and/or at habitat for humanity ReStore. Then I make the minor repairs and touch up or paint and they are good as new for cheaper than I could build them for and WAY less time.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> before starting on building, i would take time to compare costs between what it would take to make your own versus what you could get ready made cabinets for.
> 
> - BlasterStumps


+1 Compare prices.

Been down the build your own home cabinet path twice. Both times the materials cost (wood, hardware, stain, top coat AND installation); was within 10-15% of ordering factory made, installed cabinets. Even if you order cabinets from someone who uses high end plywood boxes (no MDF), and dovetail drawers; the savings was only 20% with DIY.
Considering it takes a lot of man hours to produce craftsman quality cabinets for an entire home, I decided it was better to hire a professional than spend a month in wood shop making everything. Wife was happier with decision also. Kitchen went from empty to functional in 3 days.

PS - Be sure to read up on installation of natural stone countertops. They require lot of extra prep work and installation time. Granite usually adds several week delay between base cabinet installation, and final step of installing and adjusting all doors, to get ready for use. On last house we built, granite supplier was back logged due building boom; and it took them 7 weeks from measure the space in beggining to finished installation.

Best Luck.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

I just did a calculation on a 30 inch base with one drawer and two doors using oak plywood and oak face, doors & drawers and $30 for hardware. Of course if you use Blum you are going to spend much more than $30 but compared to the big box store cabinets it should be close. Rough estimate for materials from Home Depot in Virginia is $135. Cabinet from Home Depot is $185 and that is MDF and encapsulated panels. Very cheaply built.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

This is from HGTV.Com "Pricing wise, they're listed in order-stock cabinets are cheapest, at around $60 to $200 per linear foot, semi-custom cabinets will run you around $100 to $650 per linear foot, and custom cabinets usually cost between $500 and $1,200 per linear foot."

If you want quality cabinets, the satisfaction of knowing you built them yourself and are willing to invest many man hours in them then building yourself is a great option. If you want to go from zero to finished in a few days or weeks (with new counter top) then hiring a professional company is probably the way to go. Quality custom cabinets are very expensive and you can save a lot of $ by building them yourself.

Get a quote having someone else build them and see where it takes you.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

You should tackle an infrequently use bathroom as your first cabinet project, not a kitchen. You will quickly find that cabinets take up a lot of space so you will need a lot of room to build a kitchen worth of cabinets in a home workshop.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> You should tackle an infrequently use bathroom as your first cabinet project, not a kitchen. You will quickly find that cabinets take up a lot of space so you will need a lot of room to build a kitchen worth of cabinets in a home workshop.
> 
> - TungOil


I built a 22 unit large kitchen in half of a 1&1/2 car garage. You just need to do it in sections. You can stage the completed cabinets and finish them in the kitchen. That is what we did. Now my shop is dedicated 18×22. That was my first cabinet project and it turned out great. Built and installed in 5 stages.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Rough estimate for materials from Home Depot in Virginia is $135. Cabinet from Home Depot is $185 and that is MDF and encapsulated panels. Very cheaply built.
> - MikeDilday


Yes, boxes can be made cheaper than bought. 
Especially if you want oak, which is about cheapest wood for cabinets. 
But your cost comparison missed: labor, stain, top coat, sand paper, router bits for raised panel doors, saw blades, transportation cost of lumber delivery, and buying or making all trim molding? What about cost of tools if OP needs bigger/better tools to process 20 sheets for plywood and several hundred bdft of hardwood for all the boxes? Does he have the space to make/store parts, and assemblies before installation?

My point: Kitchen cabinet cost analysis is always cheaper comparing just one box. 

Another issue for new wood worker building kitchen cabinetry is equipment and skills. 
Making one box with no dead line and infinite labor is easy. Any newbie can do it with circular saw and some hand tools. 
Making several dozen cabinets from scratch using quality materials, quality construction, and doing it on a schedule to complete a home is something completely different.

YMMV


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I built the cabinets for our kitchen using big box ply. That ran thirty a sheet.

The lower cabinets could be ply or MDO but I like the idea of plywood and dados for the uppers. I get paranoid thinking of the pound upon pound of glass they'll hold.

Since my walls were bare, I took advantage of the fact and opened them to run power for under-cabinet lights and two outlet circuits [in addition to the fridge and dishwasher circuits]. Too, I installed horizontal 2x's for the upper cabinets to mount on.

Because every over fridge cabinet in the world gets hidden by shtuff, I build my over-fridge cabinet the same size as the top of the fridge and installed a 30" lazy Susan in it. We LOVE it. It makes the whole thing usable. Too, because the cabinet is wider, than deep, several inches to one side work as large pan storage.

To solve the wasted blind corner problem, one lower has a Susan with pan and breadboard storage on each side, meaning I only lose a bout one foot of space. For the other side, I have a pull out cabinet which, when pulled out, reveals two LARGE drawers for those rarely used things.

The exhaust cabinet has a door and panel so works as hidden storage.

My wife wanted to go with painted cabinets, so poplar for the door frames and faces was fair game.

In the end, there is no way the price of commercial garbage [or better] could have got close in price to what it cost me just for materials. Generally, cabinets like our would run ten or more. We have less than a couple into them.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Good grief. Talk about a low signal to noise ratio. Wraypau, you got good advice from BlasterStumps, TungOil and SMP. Ignore the rest. Mike, take a sedative and get some sleep. One well thought out post is all it takes, not twenty. There s a lot more to concealed hinges, like Blum, than buying the Kreg drilling jig, and that s just the beginning of your bad advice.
> 
> Wraypau, you re clearly not a woodworker. If you have tools and want to tackle the job yourself, listen to TungOil. A bathroom vanity is much more approachable than a kitchen full of cabinets.
> 
> ...


The more I read this thread the more I decided to stay out of it. lol


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

After buying our kitchen cabinets, I found I could buy the tools and machines and do it better myself. And I bought custom, all plywood and oak from a local cabinet shop. My brushed on finish is better than their spray, and I matched the wood in glue ups, not random mix of different colored pieces. Twenty five years later, home built by a total beginner holding up much better. Half the above sounds like a big box commercial, not a woodworking site. If you have the time, and the old cabinets to copy, go for it. The satisfaction can not be priced. Just accept you will have some errors, and don't be too hard on yourself.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Good grief. Talk about a low signal to noise ratio. Wraypau, you got good advice from BlasterStumps, TungOil and SMP. Ignore the rest. Mike, take a sedative and get some sleep. One well thought out post is all it takes, not twenty. There s a lot more to concealed hinges, like Blum, than buying the Kreg drilling jig, and that s just the beginning of your bad advice.
> 
> Wraypau, you re clearly not a woodworker. If you have tools and want to tackle the job yourself, listen to TungOil. A bathroom vanity is much more approachable than a kitchen full of cabinets.
> 
> ...


Why do you criticize me so much Rich?


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Rough estimate for materials from Home Depot in Virginia is $135. Cabinet from Home Depot is $185 and that is MDF and encapsulated panels. Very cheaply built.
> - MikeDilday
> 
> Yes, boxes can be made cheaper than bought.
> ...


I am not in a position to give an entire quote on kitchen cabinets for the guy. If you consider the quality of the cabinets then that makes a big difference.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Rich is an engineer. That explains it.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Hello all,
> 
> I am a new member and this is my first post. My home was severly damaged by Hurricane Michael last October and I have been working diligently to repair my hoe. I have the home to the stage where I need to start planning on building the replacement cabinets. I have never built any cabinets, so I am looking for advice anywhere I can find it. I have a series of questions that I would like to ask, but first, I will give soem details as to what I want to build.
> 
> ...


Before this thread spins completely out of control, it would be helpful if you told us what your experience level is and what tools you have available to work with.

Where is your home located? I'm assuming southeast US, where you should have easy access to materials. If you are in Costa Rica, that's a different story.

Are you living in the house? Living through a kitchen renovation is no fun. It puts tremendous time pressure on you to complete, which can be hard if you have a job, kids, etc.

To you specific questions:

1) seek out a hardwood dealer in you area to purchase your lumber. Big box stores sell poor quality material which will frustrate you as a beginner and the problem is you will not no any different.

2) material choice is up to you based on taste and budget. Kitchen cabinets get a lot of use, so steer clear of softwoods like pine and softer Hardwoods like poplar as they just don't hold up. Cherry has traditionally been a very popular choice for decades. It is a beautiful wood, works well and is durable. Oak will be very strong and is less expensive so that may be a good choice. Walnut has gained in popularity again in the past year, but it tells to be trendy and finishes dark.

That all assumes you are staining. If you prefer painted, I suggest soft maple over poplar, it's harder, more durable and takes paint well.

3) assuming you are happy with the current layout, its good that you have the old cabinets to work from, that will make this much easier. You can focus on the construction without having the worry about all the rest- measuring properly (it's not a straightforward as it might seem on the surface), layout and design, etc.

Come back to us before you start your installation. That's where it will get interesting.

4) you will get a lot of answers on this. Bottom line is that top quality cabinets are made from cabinet grade plywood. End of story. I strongly recommend using prefinished 3/4" birch or maple ply for your carcasses. It will save you a lot of work when it comes time to finish them.

What you haven't thought of yet-

1) if you are using the old drawer slides, hinges, etc. you can build the cabinets exactly the same. If not, be sure you purchase and understand the hardware you plan to use before you cut any material. Blum slides are excellent, but require that you design drawers and boxes correctly to fit.

2) corner cabinets can be tricky. If you have one plan carefully.

3) plan to finish all of your cabinets at the same time if you want them to match.

4) many small cabinet shops outsource doors and drawers. Consider purchasing doors and drawers from a suppler like Conestoga. There are many others. Making raised panel doors well takes experience and a lot of expensive tooling.

5) I would recommend you get these books before you start -

Udo Schmidt "Building KitchenCabinets" and Bob Lang "The Complete Kitchen Cabinetmaker"

6) I stick with my original comment- start with a vanity to see if this is something you really want to take on. A kitchen is not a trivial project, even for an experienced pro. It can be done DIY, but know what you are getting into before you take it on.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

When figuring the cost of tooling, remember, many or most of us are not one shot hobbyists or pro's, so the tools will continue to have value. For example on the extreme end, my airless only gets used every three to five years now days, but I save a hundred a day over renting one when I do use it, and don't have to rush the job to get it back, or pay for another day.

On interiors and using pre-finished ply, that would cut a lot of work out, but look inside cabinets painted with white paint versus clear finish over wood. In every set I've painted, it's made a night and day difference. It's almost like adding a light to the inside.

If you do paint the interior, go with an oil base paint to avoid the usual problem of items sticking to the surface.

On plywood, I mention big box ply (fake 3/4) because you aren't going to find it cheaper than at Home Depot at $30.00 a sheet (birch face). Too, when it's all said and done, no one will know if you used MDO or particle board, and any 3/4" product will support your granite. Of course, I'm a fan of the strength of the ply when it comes to uppers with dados.

The advice and questions above were very good. For example, if you are living in the home during renovations, it would take some planning, such as finishing the sink area first so you can use it, even if only temporarily, until the granite is in and you can install an under-mount sink.

Still, it is REALLY worth it to take advantage of bare walls to install three way lighting controls, under counter lights that jump past the sink, task lights over the stove and sink, separate circuits for the fridge and dishwasher, if not already in.

You don't have to rip all the rock out for the electrical. Just strips big enough to install the lines. Then dump new strips back in and mud and sand them. They're going to be hidden, so do't have to be pretty-fied.

Food for thought on under-cabinet lighting: I planned for the usual halogen, but ran across LED strips at Lightingwill.com for ten each. All the electric was already in and the cabinets up when LED's dropped.

I wanted control of the cabinet lights at the switch bank for the overheads (three-way), but ran into the problem of what to do with the transformer. You can't hide it in a wall and you cannot dim through the cheap ones (only via the output). After a bit of digging, I found a magnetic transformer I could dim through (i.e., reduce the input voltage to reduce the output voltage) and mounted it out of sight, in a corner, under the upper cabinets.

The under-cabinet lights cost about $200,00, but have been going strong for five or more years. We rarely turn on the overhead lights, since the dimmable LED's (set back about 1-1/2" from the front edge, so they just reach the edge of the counter surfaces) light the counters so well.

In the end, the start to finish did take a couple months, but that included a broom closet and adding an interior attic access, taking down a [non-load bearing] wall to enlarge the, otherwise, tiny kitchen, getting rid of two sliding doors and making all the lowers, except the Susans, of course, sliding drawers.

In the end, a $60,000.00 remodel cost a fraction of that. Just the design work, alone, would have cost a few thousand. As to time, mine would have been spent in the shop on the table/band saw, lathe or other tool anyway, so….


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

Assuming you don't have the tools, just go buy cabinets.

Sure you could build them with box store mdf and poplar, but by the time you tool up and learn then actually complete a full kitchens worth you would be far ahead to just buy them.

There is a old saying "you can't beat a man at his game"


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

Well, I don't know if the OP is coming back, but one thing I would suggest is get a shipping container - 20" ought to do it - that you can use for a temporary storage while doing the job. You can rent them. They will deliver and pick up. When you build something that you're not ready to install (boxes, drawers, doors - whatever), put it out of your shop in the container. When materials come in that you are not ready to use, put it in the container. When you are done, send it on it's way. That solves your storage problem for a kitchen full of cabinets during the build process. I once visited a cabinet shop that did it that way. One container per job. When it was ready to install, a huge fork lift put the container on the truck or trailer and off it went to the job site.


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

This thread brings back some fond memories for me. When we built our house back in 89/90, we decided not to buy ready made or custom cabinets. After all, I had a Shopsmith and a Makita worm-drive saw. And besides, any danged fool can cut wood right? LMAO . It was only two years later and wallah we had all the cabinets in the kitchen. : ) I think I spent an entire $500 on materials and hardware to get them done. That was including the countertops with a Formica like surface I put down. WOW, what a beaut! I think it was Angle Gabriel Blue. LOL. The cabinets were MDF and some plywood. I made the drawers and shelves from 1/2" melamine. We still have the same cabinets today after about 29 years. Only we updated the countertop, sink, garbage disposer and dishwasher. Would I make my own kitchen cabinets today if I had to do it over again…NO!


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

but would, still, know nothing about building cabinets, and would not have a reason to come to sites like this.

If you buy the cabinets, you are either buying custom [having them made], or you are buying them off a shelf. The former will allow you to fit the cabinets to your kitchen and to use every last inch of space, but not so the ones off the shelf, which are the only ones that could compete in price, and would still be particleboard versus plywood.



> Assuming you don t have the tools, just go buy cabinets.
> 
> Sure you could build them with box store mdf and poplar, but by the time you tool up and learn then actually complete a full kitchens worth you would be far ahead to just buy them.
> 
> ...


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> but would, still, know nothing about building cabinets, and would not have a reason to come to sites like this.
> 
> If you buy the cabinets, you are either buying custom [having them made], or you are buying them off a shelf. The former will allow you to fit the cabinets to your kitchen and to use every last inch of space, but not so the ones off the shelf, which are the only ones that could compete in price, and would still be particleboard versus plywood.
> 
> ...


Sure, if he came here to learn a new hobby. However it reads like he came here because he needed cabinets.

Want a hobby build kitchen cabinets.

Just want kitchen cabinets, buy them.

Want cabinets that are beaded, inset, thick as passage doors, going from floor to ceiling with custom sticking, custom moulding, and custom features (think library ladder)

And you have or are willing to buy all tooling and machinery necessary, then build them, because in that case it might be cheaper.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

So much negativity here. If I would have seen this advice 25 years ago, I would not have built my first cabinets, and would have missed out on a great, satisfying hobby. Cabinets, furniture, decorations, turning. If you can invest in some tools, which can be used, and have the time, start with a bathroom, and go from there.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> So much negativity here. If I would have seen this advice 25 years ago, I would not have built my first cabinets, and would have missed out on a great, satisfying hobby. Cabinets, furniture, decorations, turning. If you can invest in some tools, which can be used, and have the time, start with a bathroom, and go from there.
> 
> - ibewjon


I agree. Some of the guys on here are running the new guys away from the hobby. I love my hobby, love to learn new things and I love helping guys get started and learn. A very rewarding activity for this 61 year old.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm still waiting for the OP to come back. TungOil posed an excellent set of questions that, unless answered, make continuing to participate in this thread pointless.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

My cabinets have lazy Suzans, beadboard, floor to ceiling storage and so on. To build them, all I used was:

1) A table saw
2) A mortise and tenon jig for the table saw
3) A router
4) A router table
5) A miter box
6) Drill press
7) Sanders

Standard and simple stuff.



> Want cabinets that are beaded, inset, thick as passage doors, going from floor to ceiling with custom sticking, custom moulding, and custom features (think library ladder)
> 
> And you have or are willing to buy all tooling and machinery necessary, then build them, because in that case it might be cheaper.
> 
> - Jared_S


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> My cabinets have lazy Suzans, beadboard, floor to ceiling storage and so on. To build them, all I used was:
> 
> 1) A table saw
> 2) A mortise and tenon jig for the table saw
> ...


My point wasn't about tools needed for custom cabinets, it was that if custom enough it might make sense.

You could build them with a hand saw and chisels if you wanted… i wouldn't personally


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

I believe I have it all covered on what I used to build my cabinets. Also CabinetPlanner.com if that is considered a tool.

1) A table saw
2) Kreg Pocket Screw Hole Jig
3) Miscellaneous Jigs for installing hardware
4) A router table with Jessum MastR Lift II and Router
5) Dewalt Sliding Miter Saw
6) Hand Drill and Dewalt Driver
7) Sanders
8) Dewalt 6 1/2" Circular Saw for cutting panels
9) Rail and Stile Router bit set
10) Dewalt biscuit joiner
11) Bessey parallel clamps

I guess the debate on whether it is worth it or not is driven by your passion for the hobby. For me, I love making sawdust and the challenge and satisfaction that comes with it. My wife and family love the things I make for her. If you see it as a job then maybe you measure the cost including labor. If you are passionate and looking forward to your next job then maybe you don't worry about the cost.


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## sammyboy (Apr 17, 2019)

You can make the cabinet boxes and frames by yourself. There are stores or shops specialize in making/selling cabinet doors. You could be better off directly buying from them; this may end up saving you money and time.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

No way I'm building cabinets, cabinet doors and face frames without ruff cut lumber, prefinished plywood and a jointer and planer. I didn't start out that way but that where experience took me.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

wow no wonder the op hasn't come back,i guess he didn't realize what he was in for.and another one bites the wood dust-LOL.


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## jerkylips (May 13, 2011)

> Hello all,
> 
> I am a new member and this is my first post. My home was severly damaged by Hurricane Michael last October and I have been working diligently to repair my hoe. I have the home to the stage where I need to start planning on building the replacement cabinets. I have never built any cabinets, so I am looking for advice anywhere I can find it. I have a series of questions that I would like to ask, but first, I will give soem details as to what I want to build.
> 
> ...


One thing not asked/mentioned that I saw. You said that you're doing this because of hurricane damage. Is insurance involved? You will likely have a much harder time being reimbursed for your own work if you're not a licensed contractor.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

My experience was with vehicles. They reimbursed me to get me back to what I had, which is what I pay insurance for, and it was up to me as to how I spent the money. Drove the old Fairmont, with a dent to the rear quarter panel, for ten or so years, before I sold it.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

The OP is a self-described beginner. Building a Kitchen for a first project is a huge mistake IMHO.

My first project was 40+ years ago and was a simple magazine-rack-type thing - and I managed to muck it up a bit.

Several decades later, I am all tooled up and building crazy-nice kitchens for high-paying clients.

There is a lot of mileage between those two points.

My advice to the OP? 
Build a cutting board first. 
Buy your cabinets from a pro.

There is no way I would want "beginning woodworker me" building my kitchen cabinets.

You can build your kitchen next time.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> The OP is a self-described beginner. Building a Kitchen for a first project is a huge mistake IMHO.
> 
> My first project was 40+ years ago and was a simple magazine-rack-type thing - and I managed to muck it up a bit.
> 
> ...


good advise,not a rookie project.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

Seems Elvis has left the building…....

But if he's listening, I would not recommend this if you've never made cabs before.

If money is an issue, buy cheap ones now and when you get restored down the line you can take on a cabinet build.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Cabinets are easy. Just time consuming. Some of you are making it seem like they are super complicated when they aren't. It's a box. 3 panels, 3 braces, a back panel, and some edge banding is all you need for a simple frameless cabinet. Pocket holes are strong and once Drawers are just a smaller box that fits inside. I'm building mine right now and the hardest thing is just dealing with the sheer number of parts and amount of space they take up. Once you can handle that it's fine. Set up for repetitive cuts and batch everything out.

OP: If you are still here and don't have the capability of taking a month to build cabinets and the space to store it, look into Ikea cabs. That's about as cheap as you can get for decent cabinets and they come flat packed ready to assemble. Also, I was just down in Panama City last week. The damage from the hurricane is still crazy to see. It looked really bad down there. Good luck with everything.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Cabinets are easy. Just time consuming. Some of you are making it seem like they are super complicated when they aren t. It s a box. 3 panels, 3 braces, a back panel, and some edge banding is all you need for a simple frameless cabinet. Pocket holes are strong and once Drawers are just a smaller box that fits inside. I m building mine right now and the hardest thing is just dealing with the sheer number of parts and amount of space they take up. Once you can handle that it s fine. Set up for repetitive cuts and batch everything out.
> 
> OP: If you are still here and don t have the capability of taking a month to build cabinets and the space to store it, look into Ikea cabs. That s about as cheap as you can get for decent cabinets and they come flat packed ready to assemble. Also, I was just down in Panama City last week. The damage from the hurricane is still crazy to see. It looked really bad down there. Good luck with everything.
> 
> - jmartel


Just like me. My first project was kitchen cabinets with face frames, raised panels, 23 units, dovetail drawers, pull out shelves, large island, hanging cabinets over the bar with glass doors, wine refrigerator. It took a lot of research to understand the construction. Cabinet planner software really put things into perspective and gave me precise panel cut lists for everything. Time consuming but rewarding and saves me a ton of money. High quality and they look great. With the right mentor and a little research it is not difficult at all.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Exactly the points I made above. Cabinets are just boxes, not Chippendale furniture. I don't understand the negativity. My first cabinet project, and real woodworking project, other than high school woodshop, was four pieces of cabinets for our bathroom, including countertops with oak edges. Twenty five years ago, and my brushed on finish is perfect, as compared to what I bought from a cabinet shop for our kitchen. I thought this site was to help, not discourage.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

For those who say building cabinets for a first project is a big mistake, I've been in a lot of homes for remodel projects and such and several of them had homeowner built cabinets.

As long as the uppers will stay on the wall and support a load of dishes, it's fair game.

Lower cabinets are FAR less critical. Since they are resting on the floor, you could make them from 1/2" particle and still not sweat them holding up to granite tops.

I just dropped by a guys house [literally] yesterday and the cabinets he made are, well, interesting. It's obvious one of the lowers needs shims, because it drops about 1/4". The uppers were all butt joints, and a couple where showing the edge of the ply at the sides, rather than the ceiling. Too, the wood across the back was about 1-1/2" strip and may not have been glued. STILL, every last one of these things could be overcome and hidden.

All the guy needed was, some direction. From that, and thanks to his mistakes, his abilities grew.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

> Cabinets are just boxes, not Chippendale furniture.
> - ibewjon





> As long as the uppers will stay on the wall and support a load of dishes, it s fair game.
> - Kelly


Cabinets ARE easy… for me, and others with even a spec of experience. If you are not particular and want "just boxes" that don't fall off the wall, be my guest - have fun with it - learn about it.

Perhaps I am a bit more choosy about my cabinets. In the area I work in, cabinets actually ARE more like furniture than just boxes.

Apparently our opinions are worlds apart. 
My kitchens are the ones on the magazine covers you buy in the grocery store.

But, I am not saying he has to do something like that, just, I for one, wouldn't trust my "beginner" self to do it.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

As long as the uppers will stay on the wall? You gotta hang your first cabinet at some point.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

I thought this site was to help, not discourage.-ibewjon***

hard to help someone that doesn't even bother to respond to people that are trying to help him,kinda rude if you ask me.lots of participation here except the guy that wanted it!


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Maybe he got scared off.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

This is all very interesting to me, I'm taking a 5 day cabinet class next week.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> * I thought this site was to help, not discourage.-ibewjon*
> 
> hard to help someone that doesn t even bother to respond to people that are trying to help him,kinda rude if you ask me.lots of participation here except the guy that wanted it!
> 
> - pottz


I hate to be pointed but …

The senior woodworkers who should be HELPING are the rude people here. The OP posted on 4-28 at 1:59 am and within 3 hours this thread went hostile especially to the guys trying to help. Rich criticizing ideas and telling people they don't know what they are doing as if he is the best woodworker on the planet. If we don't try to help the newbies this forum is going to get a bad reputation. You can't blame this on the OP. If anything we ran him off. We must improve our social skills.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

i agree mike sometimes these threads get heated but everyone has a right to their opinion.some including myself felt he was probably getting in over his head and would be better off buying cabinets.some though like tungoil asked some important questions that would help the guy but no response.the help was here if he wanted it,i mean your on a public forum and not everyone is gonna agree on a given topic.if you cant take a little heat this probably isn't a place youll hang around long.i always try and help the newbies or anyone the best i can but i dont always agree just for the sake of being agreeable.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

I know there are a lot of ideas and a lot of "I wouldn't do it that way". But you can present your ideas without insulting others who are trying to help. The worst is posting that some people don't know what they are talking about and others do, endorsing some and insulting others. If this is the way these threads are going to go I will look elsewhere for my info. I don't mind someone pointing out problems with my approach or presenting ideas that they think would work better but don't belittle or insult me in the process. Do it with respect.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

..


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I know there are a lot of ideas and a lot of "I wouldn t do it that way". But you can present your ideas without insulting others who are trying to help. The worst is posting that some people don t know what they are talking about and others do, endorsing some and insulting others. If this is the way these threads are going to go I will look elsewhere for my info. I don t mind someone pointing out problems with my approach or presenting ideas that they think would work better but don t belittle or insult me in the process. Do it with respect.
> 
> - MikeDilday


+1 no need to insult anyone mike.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Blocking Rich as we speak.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

No better yet just block Lumberjocks.com on my router and add it to my junk email list. This is not a motivating forum.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Cabinets are easy. Just time consuming. Some of you are making it seem like they are super complicated when they aren t. It s a box. 3 panels, 3 braces, a back panel, and some edge banding is all you need for a simple frameless cabinet. Pocket holes are strong and once Drawers are just a smaller box that fits inside. I m building mine right now and the hardest thing is just dealing with the sheer number of parts and amount of space they take up. Once you can handle that it s fine. Set up for repetitive cuts and batch everything out.
> 
> OP: If you are still here and don t have the capability of taking a month to build cabinets and the space to store it, look into Ikea cabs. That s about as cheap as you can get for decent cabinets and they come flat packed ready to assemble. Also, I was just down in Panama City last week. The damage from the hurricane is still crazy to see. It looked really bad down there. Good luck with everything.
> 
> - jmartel


Easy is relative and really depends on end goals, expectations and experience. The op could be beyond happy with cabinets that just manage to stick on the wall and not fall off.. or expect a flawless automotive quality white finish on furniture grade inset cabinets with beaded face frames and integral feet

Id argue getting perfectly square euro cabs with edge banding to look good is far more difficult than overlay doors with face frames.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I am just finishing up my kitchen cabinets out of quartersawn red oak. I used 3/4 Baltic Birch plywood for the lower boxes and 1/2" oak plywood for the upper cabinets. I have router sets for the cabinet doors and a set for the boxes. Also watch sommerfeld videos on cabinetmaking he uses his equipment that he sales but informative videos.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Easy is relative and really depends on end goals, expectations and experience. The op could be beyond happy with cabinets that just manage to stick on the wall and not fall off.. or expect a flawless automotive quality white finish on furniture grade inset cabinets with beaded face frames and integral feet

Id argue getting perfectly square euro cabs with edge banding to look good is far more difficult than overlay doors with face frames.

- Jared_S
[/QUOTE]
*Thanks for posting that and I agree with you. Anyone that says that (especially) to a beginner is doing that beginner a disservice.

Hell go over the the woodweb professional cabinet making forum and read some post. Even long time pros get stumped now and then.
*


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Are you even aware that sounds like the most arrogant crap spouted in this thread?

It appears you're holding yourself out as the lone, unique expert who, right from the start, built perfect cabinets, and that the simple boxes, to which you affix the equivalent of facades, are the things of which national magazines speak.

Here is a hint, or two, that seem to have escaped you in your accomplishments as being among the most accomplished cabinet makers of all times:

- A box, mounted to the wall and caulked and painted, can be built any of several different ways and, it often occurs, YOU will never know if they are Rolls Royce or VW, unless you pull them off the wall.

NOTE: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I have to chose between interiors that are clear coated natural wood or ones that are caulked and oil painted , I will, ALWAYS take the latter. This is based on the wisdom of years.

- If a box less strutually sound than another stays on a wall for one hundred years, it is not a failure or anything less than your [self renowned] works of [invisible] art.

- Your presumptions can paint you an idiot, an arrogant ass or similar and, if one of those was your goal, you may have been successful.

- If you really think yourself so much more impressive than others you allege to lack your standards [for the LIMITED things you do], take a bit of time and spend it trying to imitate the works of others, including mine, and see if others, using your standards, would be no less justified than you to mock you.

It remains, if the cabinets the OP built will stay on the wall, he can put any damn face on them he wants. The face works as an aesthetic, with minimal function, aside from keeping the dust out.



> Cabinets are just boxes, not Chippendale furniture.
> - ibewjon
> 
> As long as the uppers will stay on the wall and support a load of dishes, it s fair game.
> ...


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Deleted


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

WOODMASTER! Those are going to be beautiful, when installed.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

One of the GREAT things about woodworking is, a ways in, you can just look at a project and will know how to build it.

Once Woodmasters boxes are done, everything else is just pretty and dust resistance.

Copying him is just a matter of applying simple techniques. Of course, to get his results, it must be done carefully.

In the end, and after the boxes are done, it's as simple or hard as we want it to be. Of course, as seen in his example, simple can be beautiful.

Now, as to what's not seen: Are the joints going to be mortise and tenon (the route I went), laps or will the project just rely on the plywood centers resting on rabbits. In the end, as I pointed out above, much of the details will never be seen.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

P.S. The OP left the thread and it's ours now.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

Wow, wasn't expecting some name calling and negativity in my first post. Just curious, how do you know I am not an woodworker? Maybe I am an natural. Maybe I just built a 4000 sqft house with me, myself, and my dog. Just because I state I have never made cabinets, doesn't mean I can't work wood.



> Good grief. Talk about a low signal to noise ratio. Wraypau, you got good advice from BlasterStumps, TungOil and SMP. Ignore the rest. Mike, take a sedative and get some sleep. One well thought out post is all it takes, not twenty. There s a lot more to concealed hinges, like Blum, than buying the Kreg drilling jig, and that s just the beginning of your bad advice.
> 
> Wraypau, you re clearly not a woodworker. If you have tools and want to tackle the job yourself, listen to TungOil. A bathroom vanity is much more approachable than a kitchen full of cabinets.
> 
> ...


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> Before this thread spins completely out of control, it would be helpful if you told us what your experience level is and what tools you have available to work with.
> 
> Where is your home located? I'm assuming southeast US, where you should have easy access to materials. If you are in Costa Rica, that's a different story.
> 
> ...


Thanks tungoil. I will give you a little background, I am 36, electrical engineer with a passion to build things.shoeracks, deer stands, jewerly boxes, elegant bird houses, my 4109 sqft house, etc..I recently installed the windows and am now laying the hardwood, plan to start cabinets next week.

As for tool, I have a table saw, miter saw, extending miter saw, lots of miter bits, fortunately thou, wife wants real simple doors like the drawers will be 1 piece with some time of mitered edge.

I have the existing cabinets so my measurement should work flawlessly,and appliances fall right back into the holes as intended.

I could just pay this guy like 10grand and have my cabinets in 2 weeks, but my wife and mom said I couldnt do it, like it was over my head, probably wanted me to slow down since I have but the whole house after hurricane. Either way, I am going to do it better than what I would have gotten with the 10k. It might take me a month, but they will be exactly how I want them. I am the type person if I cut a board 1/16" to short, I am getting another board and making it right it's the engineering me I will take pictures and share as I go, it's great to see all the responses. Thank You everyone,I expected this board to be dead, but found a high active forum. I hope to stay around d after my project and potentially help others down the road. If any of you have electrical issues, I'm your huckleberry.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

*Wow, wasn't expecting some name calling and negativity in my first post. Just curious, how do you know I am not an woodworker? Maybe I am an natural. Maybe I just built a 4000 sqft house with me, myself, and my dog. Just because I state I have never made cabinets, doesn't mean I can't work wood.*

Good grief we are not mind readers. Your original post was way lacking in information. You didn't mention any experience you have, you didn't mention what tools you have, you didn't mention if you have a shop or a space to work in. Quite frankly your post made you sound like a rookie. You don't even know what kind of wood you like.

Good information get better answers than no information.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Wow, wasn t expecting some name calling and negativity in my first post. Just curious, how do you know I am not an woodworker? Maybe I am an natural. Maybe I just built a 4000 sqft house with me, myself, and my dog. Just because I state I have never made cabinets, doesn t mean I can t work wood.
> 
> - Wraypau


Good one. Have fun.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Sorry your first post went south. Good luck with the cabinets and I hope they turn out great.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

Wraypau, please forgive me for highjacking your thread for a moment.

Reminders On Our Conduct In This Community

1. If you have a problem with someone take off the boards. The rest of us don't want to hear it.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/42535

2. When a member asks a question, the odds are very good that there will be a wide range of answers, some of which may be the complete opposite of what you believe. When we see a post (in the responses) that we don't agree with, it is not up to us to prove why their response is right or wrong, or why we think our response it better.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/129337

I don't know how many more different ways I can say this. The bickering simply has to stop. We are all either part of the problem or we are part of the solution. It doesn't matter who said what. We can CHOOSE not to respond to the nonsense, report (flag) it, and then simply scroll past it all. If we engage in the bickering we are absolutely part of the issue.


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## RobS888 (May 7, 2013)

> I am just finishing up my kitchen cabinets out of quartersawn red oak. I used 3/4 Baltic Birch plywood for the lower boxes and 1/2" oak plywood for the upper cabinets. I have router sets for the cabinet doors and a set for the boxes. Also watch sommerfeld videos on cabinetmaking he uses his equipment that he sales but informative videos.
> 
> - Woodmaster1


Those look great to me! I'll check out his videos.


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## hkmiller (Mar 6, 2018)

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Kitchen-Cabinets-Tauntons-Expert/dp/1561584703/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=22KKMXVTSPJM0&keywords=building+cabinets&qid=1556819435&s=gateway&sprefix=building+ca&sr=8-5


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

looks like were headed for another thread shut down,cricket is patient but only to a point guys.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Rich is an engineer. That explains it.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


Old novice, Rich, OP and everyone else on this thread. I apologize for the comments I made and wish I could take them back. I am normally a pretty helpful and calm guy but some of the comments on this post just got me worked up. I will heed the moderator comments and do better going forward.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Old novice, Rich, OP and everyone else on this thread. I apologize for the comments I made and wish I could take them back.
> 
> - MikeDilday


No apology necessary, Mike. I realize my bedside manner is a bit abrasive at times. However, if you read my posts, I think you'll see that I go to great lengths to help members who ask for it.


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## Cricket (Jan 15, 2014)

> looks like were headed for another thread shut down,cricket is patient but only to a point guys.
> 
> - pottz


Nope. I am not gonna shut down the thread this time, but anyone unable to adhere to the following will lose access to the community. Enough is enough. Seriously.

Reminders On Our Conduct In This Community

1. If you have a problem with someone take off the boards. The rest of us don't want to hear it.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/42535

2. When a member asks a question, the odds are very good that there will be a wide range of answers, some of which may be the complete opposite of what you believe. When we see a post (in the responses) that we don't agree with, it is not up to us to prove why their response is right or wrong, or why we think our response it better.
https://www.lumberjocks.com/CricketW/blog/129337

I don't know how many more different ways I can say this. The bickering simply has to stop. We are all either part of the problem or we are part of the solution. It doesn't matter who said what. We can CHOOSE not to respond to the nonsense, report (flag) it, and then simply scroll past it all. If we engage in the bickering we are absolutely part of the issue.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday


Love my Incra box joint jig. As far as the dovetail jig goes for cutting half blind, I use a Leigh, but I think the process is the same as the PC, with the tail board mounted vertically in front and the pin board horizontal going to the back. The trick to avoiding tear out on the front board (tails) is to do a climb cut, right to left, all the way across the board before going in to complete the cuts. Just run the router across and let the template guide skim across the fingers of the jig.. It severs the top veneer layer, and because it's a climb cut, it does it cleanly so that the rest of the cutting doesn't tear out the veneer.

I do still have issues with the tails themselves chipping a little bit, but they don't show once it's glued up.

And finally, when you do get the inevitable bit of tear out for whatever reason in baltic birch, Timbermate's Maple/Beech/Pine color filler blends almost perfectly.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Thanks will give it a try


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Thanks tungoil. I will give you a little background, I am 36, electrical engineer with a passion to build things.shoeracks, deer stands, jewerly boxes, elegant bird houses, my 4109 sqft house, etc..I recently installed the windows and am now laying the hardwood, plan to start cabinets next week.
> 
> As for tool, I have a table saw, miter saw, extending miter saw, lots of miter bits, fortunately thou, wife wants real simple doors like the drawers will be 1 piece with some time of mitered edge.
> 
> ...


It's good that you are an engineer. I too am an engineer, as is probably 1/3 of the forum membership. We all seem to be cut from the same board, as it were. I've been Woodworking for most of my life. My father ran a custom Woodworking shop when I was younger. I was always there helping out and learning. I have probably built and installed in excess of 100 kitchens and bathrooms in my day, so I have a little experience in this space ;-).

So will you be living in the house during this renovation? Is you table saw a contractor saw, or a full size cabinet saw?

Your tool list is missing a way to easily cross cut plywood. Consider a track saw for that task. You can also make a simple shooting board to use with a circular saw. Avoid a cross cut sled for the TS, they are too cumbersome for making the 24" cross cuts needed for base cabinets.

You will need a good cordless drill as well to drive the million screws you will go through. I've been using an impact driver lately with good success to drive screws, but you will still need the drill.

If you want to include adjustable shelves, you should buy or build a shelf pin hole drilling jig. I have the Rockler jig, it works good enough. The supplied drill bit can leave a rough edge. If I were starting again I'd build one that utilizes a plunge router for cleaner holes.

Are your existing cabinets frameless or face frame? Are you planning to go painted or stain/clear finish?

Flat panel doors with simple edging are well within a beginners DIY capability. Consider iron on edge banding, it's easy to install with a household iron and available in all popular woods. .

One of the keys to good cabinet construction is maintaining absolute squareness in your cuts and working to highly accurate. cut lengths. I strive for +/- 1/64 on my cuts (seriously) because it makes everything go together so much easier.

How do you plan to apply finish to your cabinets?

When you get to installation, be sure to check back in. Installing cabinets properly is an art. It helps to think of the installed cabinets as an assembly that you put together perfectly straight and square, floating slightly above the floor and in front of the wall. You shim the whole assembly under and behind as necessary to be able to screw it to the walls. Your cabinets must be plumb and level without any racking or you will have trouble with doors and drawers, and possibly counter tops as well.

I still stick with my suggestion that you tackle a vanity first to get your feet wet with cabinetry. You will learn a lot from that one cabinet that you can apply to making the kitchen. Basic cabinets are not hard to build once you understand how they go together, but to start with a kitchen is really taking on a large project.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Regarding having the existing cabinets to look to, keep in mind, if your cabinets were built for the old fridges, new ones are taller and wider, so don't forget to look into that when planning your cabinets.

I thought I did, then we went for an even bigger monster. I had to pull the over-fridge cabinet I'd built and replace it with a significantly larger one. Had the fridge been in the middle of a cabinet run, that would have made for a real challenge (e.g., cutting back lower and uppers, making new drawers, . . . ).


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday


I thought I'd follow up on this with a couple of photos. I wasn't sure how well I described the process in my post above, so this should help.

First, here is the underside of the jig after the right-to-left climb cut. It's clean because the bit is spinning into the surface, and not lifting it out like it would on a regular cut. The undulations are from the bushing bumping along the jig fingers. This is not a precise cut - just a quick pass to sever those fibers.










Here is another image of the board after that cut. Again, note how clean the cut is, and because the fibers are severed, they will not tear out when the tails are finally cut.










Finally, here is the finished tail board. Note I still get some chipping on the round faces of the tails from the plywood delaminating, but it's minor and is hidden inside the joint, so the finished joint is fine. There will be a little final clean up to this board before gluing.










P.S. Notice that I'm taking the time to help you solve your dovetail in plywood problem even though you have me blocked. It would be petty of me not to.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


thanks for posting this rich ive had the same issue myself.this is what lumber jocks is all about.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


Thanks Rich. The photos helped a lot.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> To solve the wasted blind corner problem, one lower has a Susan with pan and breadboard storage on each side, meaning I only lose a bout one foot of space. For the other side, I have a pull out cabinet which, when pulled out, reveals two LARGE drawers for those rarely used things.
> 
> The exhaust cabinet has a door and panel so works as hidden storage.
> 
> - Kelly


Do you have any pictures of this. I like this idea.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> * I thought this site was to help, not discourage.-ibewjon*
> 
> hard to help someone that doesn t even bother to respond to people that are trying to help him,kinda rude if you ask me.lots of participation here except the guy that wanted it!
> 
> - pottz


Sorry for the delayed response. I have installed a LVP floor for my kitchen, dining, living, foyer, laundry, 2 halls, pantry, and 3 closets. Then I put the 1/4 round, putty, sanded, caulked, and touch up paint. I then proceeded to build a fireplace mantel. I have to finish the crown on the mantle and install, then I will be back to the cabinet project.

I am amazed that this forum is so active. I can certainly see how some feel there is some negativity in the responses. However, I am thick skinned, and can also see it as a hard truth. I wouldn't say that I am new to woodworking, but I am new to building cabinets. I have never built any cabinets, and am about to tackle a big project, which will take significant time and sweat equity. I am sure they wont be perfect, but they will be better than what I get from a box store, or one of the scalping contractors here in Florida taking advantage of hurricane victims. I have built lots of things out of wood, a house, sheds, fishing rod racks, shipping boxes, shelves, bences, bird/dog houses, etc. I haven't bought any tools to build cabinets yet, but I have lots of tools already from my other adventures. As for tools, I have the following:

Bosch 12" miter saw
Bosch 12" sliding miter saw
Kobalt 10" Table saw, portable, but plan to build a workbench around it
Several drills
Drill press
Jigsaw
Oscillating saw
cope saw
about 5 sanders, mouse, belt, orbitals, etc.
Kobalt Router with multiple bit set, will go onto the workbench I plan to build.
Pocket hole jig
Lots of clamps

Plan to buy
A lot more clamps
hidden hinge boring jig
Shelf hole jig
Drawer slide mounting jig

I reckon my original post was intended for a few things.

1. Is this an active forum to get a woodworking question answered. Kind of obvious now.
2. Where are the best places to get material, do I just run to local lumbar yard, Home Depot/Lowes, etc. 
3. Learn about new materials, like I never heard of melamine. 
4. Get new ideas, maybe figure out exactly what I am about to build.
5. Learn some new things, and learn from other's past mistakes.
6. Make some new friends. I am an active forum poster for college athletics team, lawn site, fishing site, and now woodworking site.

Thanks again to everyone who replied, rather it was helpful or not, encouraging or hard truth, THANK YOU. I would have posted sooner and more, but I have been extremely busy, like going to real job at 5 AM, then working at house until 1030-midnight, every freaking day. I think when I am done with all of this, I will build me a casket, because I am going to need a long rest.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Wraypau, here are some photos of the blind corners solutions:




























This blind spot (with drawers), now, has a cart with a maple top (bowling ally type, which, eventually, will be converted to a real butcher block). I'll try to remember to shoot a photo later. It added three drawers, which, in our small kitchen, went a long ways to improving it's storage capacity.

The cart pulls out easily. I went with all swiveling casters. I'll be adding guides at the bottom so, over time, moving the cart in and out will not beat it or the other cabinets up.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

hey glad to hear from you,i didn't mean to be harsh it just seemed like you walked out on us when many were trying to help.i can understand your situation and when more help is needed just ask and it will come as you can see.good luck with your project.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

We also had a problem at the door.

My wife wanted curtains and a rod mounted on the wall, above it. I'd added a small pantry with a phone stations (phone plug, outlet), which left only about 1-1/2" between the cabinet and door. Because the The rod prohibited you from opening the upper cabinet door, it had to be shortened. This meant the upper shelf was all but unusable.

To solve the problem, my wife suggested I play with some of my rare earth magnets I seem to be starting a collection of on the shop door. This was the end solution, which gets used often.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> Thanks tungoil. I will give you a little background, I am 36, electrical engineer with a passion to build things.shoeracks, deer stands, jewerly boxes, elegant bird houses, my 4109 sqft house, etc..I recently installed the windows and am now laying the hardwood, plan to start cabinets next week.
> 
> As for tool, I have a table saw, miter saw, extending miter saw, lots of miter bits, fortunately thou, wife wants real simple doors like the drawers will be 1 piece with some time of mitered edge.
> 
> ...


My table saw is a portable Kobalt 10" saw. I have never heard of a track saw. I like the idea of it, I use to do something similar, as I would take a 6ft level, and clamp it down, then slide skill saw down aluminum level side. I just google a track saw, and man-oh-man, Im going to get me one of these… TODAY! 
lol, and my wife says I have everything. Thanks, this is exactly why I signed up for this forum.

I plan on getting the shelf jig. Good advice.
Existing cabinets are faced, and that's how I plan to build the new ones. I am unsure what the wife wants regarding paint or staining. I think she is going to go with similar to what we previously had, glazed off white, antique looking.

How do you measure 1/64? Do you use calipers? Advice on how to get better measuring device other than metal tape. Never seen calipers much longer than 12".

I think she wants the simple shaker style doors. Nice for me, as I won't have to do all that routing, which I have little experience with.

I will definitely check back in on installation tips, because whoever framed my house, was as high as the rockies.

Plan to do the vanities first. Good advice though. If they challenge my patience and mental fortitude, then I will hire out for kitchen.

thanks for the sound advice.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> Wraypau, here are some photos of the blind corners solutions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a really great idea. I will definitely incorporate this into my cabinets.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> So much negativity here. If I would have seen this advice 25 years ago, I would not have built my first cabinets, and would have missed out on a great, satisfying hobby. Cabinets, furniture, decorations, turning. If you can invest in some tools, which can be used, and have the time, start with a bathroom, and go from there.
> 
> - ibewjon
> 
> ...


I definitely have a negative attitude toward this project. As the OP stated, he is a beginner and never built a cabinet before. That said, he has a long learning curve ahead of him where many mistakes will be made, and they will not be cheap mistakes. He could end up spending more money redoing cabinets and fixing mistakes. As dirty Harry once said, "you gotta know you limitations". I hate to be negative, but I feel this is too big a project for a beginner to tackle. I have been doing woodworking for 50 years and not one of my projects has been 100% perfect. I have made some goofs, some visible and some invisible; now I have learned how to cover up my mistakes. I do commend him for wanting to tackle such a big project, but maybe he should try to get some experience on smaller projects before tackling the big one. There are just too many things to go wrong. Now if he can afford the money for the materials and tools needed, then go for it.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

More negativity… Live, make mistakes, and learn. If we all had never tried something new, like walking, we would all still be crawling around the house. I am sure glad this forum didn't exist 25 years ago when my first project after high school shop was our bathroom vanity and other cabinets. I would have never tried, and would have missed out on a great hobby. No, they were not perfect, but still in use every day. And if I don't mention the defects, no one except a woodworker ever notice.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

if it wern't for mistakes the dyson vacuum would never had been invented,it took 5127 tries before he got it right,so in essence the faster we make mistakes the faster we learn to do something right.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes! My comments are negative, but the OP asked for advise and advise is not always positive. It is better to point out the pitfalls in advance so a judgement can be made whether to go ahead with the project or not. I really want him to succeed and enjoy woodworking. I hope you read *all *the comments and didn't just jump in at the end.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> How do you measure 1/64? Do you use calipers? Advice on how to get better measuring device other than metal tape. Never seen calipers much longer than 12".
> 
> - Wraypau


With these:










For sheet goods you can't measure to 1/64" of course, but you can for dados, face frame parts, etc. my point is strive to be dead on the mark, being off a smidge is fine, maybe even 1/32", but not a 1/16".


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> How do you measure 1/64? Do you use calipers? Advice on how to get better measuring device other than metal tape. Never seen calipers much longer than 12".
> 
> - Wraypau
> 
> ...


You never measure except to get an initial cut After that, use stop blocks to ensure that the associated pieces are exactly the same. If you measure and mark for every cut, you're going to create a mess. Errors will compound and in the end nothing will fit right.

Since the discussion is about cabinets, here's what I mean. Let's say you're building a face frame with two openings for cabinet doors. You either have calculated or measured the height you're going for. You need two outer stiles, and stiles run the full height, so you set a stop block for that length, and make both cuts. You've only used the tape measure once-to set the stop block. What you have are two boards that are exactly the same length. There should be nowhere near 1/64" difference between them. They'll be the same down to a few thousandths.

For your rails, again calculate the length which will be the width of the face frame minus the sum of the stile widths. Again, set your stop and make both cuts. Assuming your saw is set square you now have two rails and two stiles that when glued up square will be perfect with rails parallel to one another and stiles parallel.

For the center stile, don't just measure and cut. Instead, cut it just long of what you've calculated (stile length minus the sum of the rail widths). Do your dry fitting and eyeball how much too long that stile is and trim just a hair off. Check it for fit and keep trimming until it's perfect.

Almost every piece of a cabinet works this way. The exact dimension isn't critical. Yeah get it down to a sixteenth or so, but what is critical is that opposing pieces are the same. Door rails and stiles, drawer box front and back and the sides. That's how you get things square.

Also use guide sticks and blocks. For example, when you are mounting your drawer runners inside a cabinet, don't measure front and back and try to get them equal. Cut a block of wood so that you can rest the runner on it while you screw it to the carcass. That way it's perfectly parallel and at the right height. Use that same block to attach the runner on the other side of the carcass. Now you have them perfectly aligned and at the same height. If it's a bank of drawers, keep cutting blocks as you stack up the runners. If two or three of the drawers are the same height, you can use the same block to space them.

In fact, you can build an entire kitchen of cabinets without a single tape measure or ruler if you know what you're doing. You lay it all out on story sticks and poles and use those marks to set your cuts and position your units and you're done.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday


I took the time to post twice to help you. Once with a description and next with photos to back it up.

Pretty sad that when I looked at your post about exterior carriage doors I couldn't reply because you still have me blocked. Says a lot about character, or lack thereof.

Next time you cut a perfect set of tails using plywood in your jig, think about who got you there.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


PM sent.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> So Rich you said you can dovetail plywood. I am using a Porter Cable dovetail jig on 1/2" Baltic Birch and am getting a LOT of splintering. Is there a secret you can share? I have resorted to box joints on the table saw using an Incra box joint jig and that seems to work ok.
> 
> - MikeDilday
> 
> ...


I guess we know who the bigger man is here! sad……….


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I guess we know who the bigger man is here! sad……….
> 
> - pottz


No, Mike and I talked. All is good.


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## rcs47 (Oct 31, 2009)

I've built many cabinets working in my Dad's cabinet shop in the '70s. Here are a few thoughts about making your own cabinets:

-Don't buy materials you want to use as part of your exterior finished cabinets from Home Depot or Lowes. Find a real lumber yard, a hardwood lumber yard. Make calls to see who has the best prices. You will find real yards 4/4 S3S ("four quarter" surfaced three sides - top, bottom, plus one straight edge - typically 13/16" thick) lumber will be substantially lower than Lowes or HD (cut to specific widths and sanded to ¾" thick). They will be talking $/board ft. Their plywood will be better quality, and you will not go through the veneer by looking at wrong.

-Wood choices are a personal thing. I've used red oak, ash, walnut, and quarter sawn white oak for projects in the house. I used maple for a few shop cabinets (still unfinished). Ash & oak are easy to stain. When you've decided on one or two wood types, go to the lumber yard you've identified and pick up a few small pieces (cut offs if they have any). Go through the finishing steps you plan to finish the cabinets. You might like maple or cherry but there are too many steps to get a great finish. Red oak looks good, but it is redder than you'd like. Maybe ash is a better choice. It has a similar grain pattern without the red undertone.

-Building your own cabinets will allow you to minimize the number of pieces. If you have a "U" shaped kitchen, you have three pieces, vs. multiple 36" boxes. The same for the upper cabinets.

-If you have a "U" shaped kitchen, do not make a wall-to-wall cabinet. You want the bottom of the "U" slide into one of the sides (that has gone into the bottom of the "U" wall). It will make your installation life easier.










-After you build a cabinet box, cut and layout your face frame materials on the box to make sure they fit before you drill screw holes. Mark/number the pieces so you know how they go back together.

Note - We built the faces on the boxes using dowels. You will be building the face off the box using screws and want to make sure it fits before you screw it together. The errors in the shops using screws when I was building cabinets were faces not fitting boxes.

I'm sure you have seen scribing cabinets to the wall. If you plan to do that, you need to build for that purpose with face frame and panel overhang. You can see in the image below the face frame overhang and the finished end panel overhang. You would push this upper cabinet into place. Set a compass to the largest gap on the face, then trace the line wall line. Then go to the finished wall, set the widest gap and repeat the process. Take down the cabinet and cut or sand to the line. Put the cabinet back up to see if you need to make any adjustments. The more you do, the less you need to make adjustments.










Note - I would still make the 1" face overhang on the ends that butt into walls but I would use trim to cover gaps.

-I would overlay the drawer faces and doors. If you inset drawers/doors and the house moves, then you will need to adjust the clearances to allow them to open/close again. Euro hinges will allow for easy adjustment on the doors, but drawers are harder.

-Make drawer boxes and install them in the cabinets, then attach the drawer faces.

-If you are using raised panel doors, I would suggest ordering the doors instead of trying to buy the tools and making the doors.

-If you are installing a dishwasher, install the flooring into the opening. Otherwise, you will need to lift it every time you need to pull it out.

-Build 42" tall uppers, not 30"

-If you have a floor-to-ceiling oven cabinet, you will need a removable toe kick to stand the cabinet up in an 8' room.

-We used the pie cut Lazy Susan for the corner cabinets. Rockler has a new corner solution that I would consider if I was building for myself:

https://www.rockler.com/blind-corner-wire-pullouts-rev-a-shelf-5psp-series

Good luck!


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> I guess we know who the bigger man is here! sad……….
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


Yes we did. All is good.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I guess we know who the bigger man is here! sad……….
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


great now we can all get back to what we love,sharing our love of woodworking.peace guys.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Often the savings is in quality and satisfaction. Generally hard to make cabinets for less than you can get them from Home Depot. Often a big challenge is space for all the carcases as it comes together.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Often the savings is in quality and satisfaction. Generally hard to make cabinets for less than you can get them from Home Depot. Often a big challenge is space for all the carcases as it comes together.
> 
> - DrDirt


True about the carcasses. Lots of areas of the house will become warehouse space until you're done. Assuming you're replacing cabinets that need to be available for use during construction, that is. If it's an empty space you're building for, they can go in as you complete them.

However, I strongly disagree about the cost. A 24" face-only unit (no side panel) is 6 bd-ft of hardwood. Call it 8 to account for waste. That, and a half-sheet of plywood is all you need besides some lesser cost items like the screw strip for attaching to the wall. Throw in some Blum Euro hardware and you're still well under $120 or so. Anything you buy pre-made for that amount is going to be stapled pressboard. A bank of drawers will be slightly more, but you're getting premium hardwood and Blum undermount soft close runners.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> Throw in some Blum Euro hardware and you re still well under $120 or so. Anything you buy pre-made for that amount is going to be stapled pressboard. A bank of drawers will be slightly more, but you re getting premium hardwood and Blum undermount soft close runners.
> 
> - Rich


Agree Rich - - that is where I say quality is an issue for the savings - - as you mention what you get at Depot is not as good as what you would make.…
But for someone new to woodworking to figure they can "beat the big box at making cabinets"... is sketchy.

The OP makes no mention of their skill level.. so maybe just the average Joe with a Dewalt Contractor saw and little experience… even using great materials may not end up with square cabinets, with runners that don't bind and an odd finish, under the guise of saving money. Just looking at the OP questions on 'what material to use' and "is particle board in commercial cabinets common" tell me he is new to all this… and will spend a lot on tools/spray guns/ clamps and hardware items we take for granted having decades of accumulated crapola in our shops to draw from.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> But for someone new to woodworking to figure they can "beat the big box at making cabinets"... is sketchy.
> 
> - DrDirt


You're right. I guess I wasn't considering that the waste factor might go from 25% to 300% or more for a novice. That would be expensive. Then there's those little things you and I take for granted like accurate measurements, squareness, etc.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Going negative again. I thought we were beyond that. Here are pictures of my first cabinets 25 years ago, and my only experience was a year of high school shop.


















Feel free to point out defects, I know there are plenty. Plywood, no fiber or MDF in boxes.. Solid oak for face frames, panels, and exposed sides of boxes. Used every day. Sorry, med cabinet needs a quarter turn, handle is on the left. Also built vanity with drawers, and counter top, no pictures posted. Not bragging here, just saying a beginner can do this, just don't rush.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Going negative again. I thought we were beyond that. Here are pictures of my first cabinets 25 years ago, and my only experience was a year of high school shop.


















Feel free to point out defects, I know there are plenty. Plywood, no fiber or MDF in boxes.. Solid oak for face frames, panels, and exposed sides of boxes. Used every day.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Going negative again.
> 
> - ibewjon


Expressing concern is not going negative. Anyone who's a self-professed novice should be made aware of the potential pitfalls of tackling a job this big. No one's saying not to do it.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

Cabinets are easy peasy. One of my first woodworking projects was a complete kitchen and it turned out real nice. Having a good understanding of the construction helps. The design is probably the most intimidating part. A good cabinet planner application with optimized cut layouts is very beneficial. The assembly is the easy part. Understanding all the tools needed takes a little research, especially if you are doing raised panels. My kitchen has about 23 units and two raised panels that are 8-10 feet long above and below the bar cabinet.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

that was for starters.









I used 3/4 cherry veneer furniture grade plywood. 86 dollars a sheet if you buy so many. 250 for a 150' roll of thick 2" iron on cherry veneer tape, 200 dollars and 160 bft of cherry 288 dollars.

These are just part of the build. Plywood is the way to go.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

Anybody know what type of router bit this Cabinet door was made from? Also, how did they paint to get the hazey looking cream color, yet still leave the wood grain visibly? Is this some sort of staining?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Corners are mitered, so I would guess rails and stiles may have been made with a molder in long lengths, then cut slot for panels, miter and assemble.


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## Wraypau (Feb 28, 2019)

> Corners are mitered, so I would guess rails and stiles may have been made with a molder in long lengths, then cut slot for panels, miter and assemble.
> 
> - ibewjon


thats what I was thinking, it looks like they routed down each of the long sides of the stile trim. I am interested in making a few more cabinets door to match, but cannot find the correct router bit.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Corners are mitered, so I would guess rails and stiles may have been made with a molder in long lengths, then cut slot for panels, miter and assemble.
> 
> - ibewjon
> 
> ...


You are not going to find a router bit to match, you possibly can find a combination or router bits that will get you close with enough effort and mutiple passes. You will have to approach it like hand work.

Alternatively buy a moulder and have a custom knife ground to match. You can get a new shop fox for about $1600. Williams and hussey would be another option at about $2500.

Custom knives would be another $200 or so.

The hazy color is a tinted top coat, similar to a toner.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Just got my W&H molder for $700. Like new. Custom blades about $150 for a set. The deals are out there. Or find a local shop to make it for you. There is a molder on eBay in miss or Louisiana, but it is over priced. Build the boxes, saving doors till last.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You can probably get a couple beading bits, and run the material through on edge. Three passes per piece.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Just got my W&H molder for $700. Like new. Custom blades about $150 for a set. The deals are out there. Or find a local shop to make it for you. There is a molder on eBay in miss or Louisiana, but it is over priced. Build the boxes, saving doors till last.
> 
> - ibewjon





> You can probably get a couple beading bits, and run the material through on edge. Three passes per piece.
> 
> - ibewjon


Sure, with unlimited time you can find deals. I paid less than $400 each for the two williams and husseys that I have, but if the op wants to start working, deal hunting isnt the best way to get done fast.

Honestly just ordering doors to the correct size and profile will be faster and cheaper.

As for the profile, they look like typical mitered doors with a center radius (not a flat) ts-mc1 would be a example.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

> Honestly just ordering doors to the correct size and profile will be faster and cheaper.
> 
> - Jared_S


+1, just order the doors, it will take a lot of the difficult work out of the project for you. Especially since you are painting, no worries about the door manufacturer selecting nice grain, sapwood, etc.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

He can be looking while building boxes.


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## PPBart (Nov 12, 2018)

I also agree with the concerns about excessive negativity!

I've built countless cabinets-including several full kitchens-as a DIY'er over the past 50(+) yrs. When confronted with a problem I didn't know how to resolve, I would research books/magazines, talk with other woodworkers, etc. With the resources available to beginners today (e.g., YouTube) it's relatively easy to see and understand what to do for a successful build. For the OP, I would suggest starting with the smaller pieces, such a bath vanities and wall cabinets. He said he has the original kitchen cabinets (and I assume he intends to rebuild to the same design?), so he has an upfront advantage right there.

Someone mentioned a lazy susan-I put one (first time installation) in the corner base cabinet of our condo. It worked out so well I decided to use the same concept for the upper cabinet in that corner-bifold hinges on the corner doors eliminated that annoying "black hole" in the corner!


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