# Making cabinet doors



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I've started previous threads on my kitchen remodel. However I wanted to get some of your opinions….

I am making mission style cabinet doors to upgrade our kitchen. They will be painted white. The accuracy and repeatability of my table saw makes this process super slow.

I'm wondering instead of doing the tongue and groove - which is hard on my table saw, if dowels would be sufficient to hold the rails and styles? I'm using 1/4 MDF for the panel - If I glued that in as well, that would add extra strength.

Thoughts?


----------



## Garbanzolasvegas (Jan 15, 2015)

You could half lap them. and if you needed a groove for the panel you could router it out


----------



## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Half lap sounds like a great idea! Does away with any gaps a doweled joint might show


----------



## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Dak, you don't have a router table?


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm still trying to get over this statement.

"I'm wondering instead of doing the tongue and groove - which is *hard on my table saw*"

I thought that's what table saws were for. 
I would 100% rather use a table saw over using a router. (it's just me)

Sounds like you would be better off just outsourcing them.


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I have a router, but no router table at this moment.


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

"its hard on my table saw" because my table saw isn't very accurate or repeatable. So I'm not getting nicely fitting tongues and grooves. I CAN, it just takes a while, making sure the saw is still setup correctly, etc

These are paint grade - just wondering if dowels are appropriate for cabinet doors, or not….


----------



## SPalm (Oct 9, 2007)

Is it the tenon that is hard on your saw? It seems like you are going to do a groove for the mdf, you could just use a floating tenon - i.e. a little thin piece of wood where the style meets the rail. I would not make the floating tenons out of mdf.

Steve


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

its not hard on my saw….its just hard to do on my table saw because of the inaccuracy of it…..

just thinking I could save a lot of time if dowels would create just as strong of a joint - especially if I glue in the MDF panels


----------



## mnguy (Feb 4, 2009)

How are you planning on capturing the MDF panel if you don't make a groove in the rails and stiles? When I have made cope and stick cabinet doors, I have always used veneered MDF and glued it into the groove. I have had good luck with this technique.

I agree that a half lap could be a good solution - more glue area than a short tenon on the rails.

When you say "hard on your saw" and mention set up and accuracy challenges, are you saying you can't run a dado set? If so, it would be harder to do grooves, but not that hard - two passes with a standard kerf blade gets you to 1/4" groove.


----------



## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

I would think that dowels would be strong enough to hold the doors together. I'd be more inclined to do half laps for the extra strength but your accuracy issues with the tablesaw might work against you for those.
You'll still need to make a groove in the rails and stiles, like mnguy says. And I wouldn't glut the panels in. MDF expands and contracts - less than solid wood across its width but more across its length and it could (worse case) break the joints or (more likely) open up gaps in the joints.
I hope you have dust collection or wear a mask - MDF dust is miserable stuff and gets everywhere.


----------



## Broglea (Dec 9, 2009)

Just take the time to make a quick and dirty router table and fence. Probably will take you less the 2 hrs to do it. That will make the job go quicker and be more accurate.


----------



## PaulMaurer (Feb 22, 2014)

Id do it on the TS, but suggest what ever method you think easiest for you. Since they are getting painted you can fill any discrepancies and no one will ever have to know.


----------



## wbrisett (Dec 21, 2011)

This really is where you should look into a router table. It doesn't have to be fancy. I made all of my cabinet doors on a portable router table. The key is getting the right bits for the things. Watch this video. I think it may have you change your mind about how you should make your cabinet doors.


----------



## joey502 (Mar 30, 2014)

I would not use your table saw if you feel like accuracy is an issue. I saw you were looking into a new one and I think that is a great plan for future projects. With that said you need a solution that meets you needs now.

I make panel doors on my router table, it is accurate and repeatable. My suggestion is look into a router table for the router you already own. A good router table lift combo is capable of and excels at so many things around the shop.

Lastly, I have to respectfully disagree with Paul. I think any shop project is an opportunity to develop your skills for future projects. If you use the "no one will notice" approach to these cabinet doors then you are missing out on an opportunity to learn successful methods for making this type of joint. Your desire to make these painted doors accurately and to the standard you expect from yourself will make your next project that much better.


----------



## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

As a new cabinet maker, I spent two months trying pretty much 
everything to get acceptable shaker style panel doors out of my
table saw. In the end I had a large pile of expensive firewood.

I finally broke down and bought a freud two piece tongue and groove
router bit and that was the key. Once I got the spacing dialed in
I was able to make some pretty nice doors.


----------



## hotbyte (Apr 3, 2010)

Are you setting up saw and cutting in batches without moving fence, stop blocks, etc? For example, cut all grooves in a batch, cut all tenon shoulder cuts in a batch, etc.

If so, is something moving between cuts?


----------



## ric53 (Mar 29, 2014)

Why are you using MDF? It swells.


----------



## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

Hard to beat the results of a rail and stile cutter in a router table. Worth the time to rig up a table and purchase the bits or stacked bit .


----------



## cracknpop (Dec 20, 2011)

Couple thoughts…

1. Could you make jigs/sled for your current TS instead of relying on the fence for accuracy?

2. Could use pocket hole joinery for rail/stiles, rabbit for the panel, silicone panel in instead of glue. Probably not the best choice but will get the job done, be strong enough, and allow for the mdf to expand/contract. Hopefully you have an accurate miter saw or TS sled.

3. I like the router table ideas already suggested. My first router table was a piece of mdf with hole in middle to fit the bit I wanted to use and bolted router directly to bottom of mdf. Fence was mdf on a piece of angle iron and hand clamps to secure in position. Actually worked well and a buddy still has it.

4. You are painting them. Don't recall if you mentioned what wood will be used for rail/stiles. Is your TS adequate to make them with tongue and groove, or half lapped, and then fill any gaps before painting? Others may cringe to hear that I have used auto body filler which dries fast, sands easy, and flexible enough to move with the wood.

The above thoughts would not fly in a professional cabinet shop. But they are a way to accomplish what you want with what you have on hand (or can easily/economically get your hands on).

If your wife is like mine, she will ask for a different design or style long before the mdf will swell or the joinery begins to fail. I like to make my wife happy. When she asks, "Do you think you can make this for me?" I typically reply, "Sure, but that would require (insert new tool here)." LOL


----------



## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Can never understand why guys and gals feel the need to attack. The person is asking a question as they are obviously new and need assistance not to argue someone's hang up on using a certain way of building doors.

That said you have to find a happy medium with what you have to build with and the style of door you choose. I personally couldn't think it would be easier than to use a router table and rail and stile bits. A table can be found dirt cheap on Craigslist or can be simply made with a hole drilled in a piece of scrap wood. Th fence again could deb made out of the same.

You could also use miter corner doors that would only need a biscuit and you could duct the groove for the panel with your saw. You could also use the dowels in the corners.

Woodworking is not cheap. Guys always swear they can make it cheaper an that is great if you have the tools already. To buy the equipment needed you will be over the cost of buying the doors made. If you are doing it to just get it done vs the pride of making your own buy the doors. There is also the learning curve that will create a scrap pile larger then you would think.

Barker door is so cheap and quick I have the set up to make doors but use them at times as they knock them out and with the mass production they have they honestly have better quality.

Good luck


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

Sorry guys - I have not been responding lately. Lots of things going through my head.

I made a test door the other night (using the table saw) and it turned out pretty decent. However, it took me forever because of the inaccuracies and lack of repeatability of my table saw. (blade won't stay exactly at 90 degrees, saw blade height changes). It seems like its too much trouble.

I like the router idea - I have a decent router, and it'd be no trouble building a table.

I really appreciate Woodie's last post. Barkerdoor is something I'm seriously considering now. It seems I can get them made through them for only a $1-2 more than what I can make each door myself. I might go this option!


----------



## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

When I made my doors my wife was out of town. I thought I could produce the doors, sand back the existing face frames and interiors in the five days she was gone. All of that did get done but there was no finish (paint) on any of it. The doors were built in two days (17). The sanding face frames in a day the interiors in two days. Then she came home. All of the kitchen was in the living room. There was sanding debris EVERYWHERE. I spent the next five days painting all of it and a day and a half hanging the doors and installing handles. I had already made the drawers and installed them. That would have added another two days to the project.
All that said there was immense satisfaction when it was finished. I found the drawer installation and painting to be the most challenging. 
With the table saw you are using, given its limitations, I would buy the doors. Accuracy in ripping and cross cutting is essential. 90 degree cross cuts can not be over stated. 
Good luck in what ever path you embark.
Have you even considered the hardware; hinges and handles? THAT was an adventure in itself. NOT installing them. Picking them out as the wife was involved in that.


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

we have the door/drawer pulls picked out already.

Where do you guys source your hinges from? pros/cons/prices?


----------



## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

I'd second the pocket screw idea somebody threw out there. Get yourself that $40 kreg set, a couple extra boxes of screws and paint grade plugs. That would be a quick way of making doors short of screwing around making a router table. Of course that being said it's really nice to have a router table. I made mine out of some scrap sheathing and 2×4 lumber. I bought a throat plate and some t-track with the hardware and probably had less than $100 in it when I was done.


----------



## dakremer (Dec 8, 2009)

I think if I went that route, Id use dowels instead - I have a really nice/accurate doweling jig.


----------



## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

I just cut down some cabinets to accommodate a larger fridge and the addition of a microwave. I would have DIY, but the doors were very custom and raw cherry. The hinges that came out of the old doors went right into the new ones I had made up.. They are an older style Blum hinge that weren't super easy to install. Drill out a big pocket for the hinge and two little holes for the nylon dowels.. take care not to burn through the door face


----------



## HornedWoodwork (Jan 28, 2015)

The answer is yes dowels will provide the strength you need to hold your doors together, you could also try splines which are pretty easy to do, you can cut them before or after glue up, since you are painting it really doesn't matter which way you go. I assume you are going to use a rabbet cutting bit to create the recess for the MDF after glue up? or do you plan to trap the panel in a groove? If you are going to trap it, glue only about 1/4 of the board at the center of board, you can glue the entire thing in but it will shirnk and swell and may crack your paint if the board releases from one side but not the other. Dropping in a rabbet cut after assembly limits your choice, you'll have to glue the entire edge, so I'd stick with a trapped panel.


----------



## Dutchy (Jun 18, 2012)

In the past I have done it with lamello

But maybe this is an idea http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsitesc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bittongue_groove.html


----------



## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

> we have the door/drawer pulls picked out already.
> 
> Where do you guys source your hinges from? pros/cons/prices?
> 
> - dakremer


I get my hinges from Siggia Hardware in Los Angeles. They have mail order.
In any case you want to buy from the people that supply the trade. Like
Wood Whisperer says, "If it has a barcode on it, expect to pay double."


----------



## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Tongue and groove isn't that strong unless the groove is deep. Dowels are probably about as good but floating tenons would be much better (make a jig for the hand held router).

A door supplier like the one I use sells assembled, pre-sanded oak doors for about $13 a square foot. It's an option if building kitchen doors isn't something you're looking forward to doing.

Custom Service Hardware is a pretty good place to buy hinges. My other source is Baer Supply but whether or not they'll sell in small quantity direct to a consumer is something I don't know.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

As I glance at Barker doors, it appears to me the prices are extremely high. However the west coast might have higher cost. The solutions I have on a past thread provided with using www.taylorcraftdoor.com (Taylor Texas) would be far less expensive than the quoted prices in Barker doors website.



> I really appreciate Woodie s last post. Barkerdoor is something I m seriously considering now. It seems I can get them made through them for only a $1-2 more than what I can make each door myself. I might go this option!
> 
> - dakremer


If this statement is true that Barker's price is only about $1-2 more than it would cost you to DIY the doors, then I assure you Taylor's price would end up being significantly lower than what you could build them yourself.

I buy Taylor Craft a lot as well. They are excellent quality doors and come sanded to 220. The only thing required upon receiving the doors would be to stain and lacquer.

Even if Taylor Craft Door is not your choice, JAAune mentions that his source builds Oak doors at 13.00 SF. I believe that is a very fair market price for that species.


----------



## Garbanzolasvegas (Jan 15, 2015)

Half laps


----------



## goochs (Jan 13, 2015)

I used kreg pocket holes and my router table for the grooves for the panel. Fasted doors I ever made and once your set up it works like an assembly line. I built a corner cabinet that way completel in an afternoon.


----------

