# Spend money on a dovetail jig or learn to do them by hand?



## JohnnyBoy1981

I want to build a few small keepsake boxes and music boxes with decorative joinery. I doubt I'll ever build a bunch of drawers or what have you. I was looking at the Porter Cable jigs vs. trying to learn how to do them by hand. I'd also like to do box joints as well, and I've built a few cheap jigs for my router table to try and make that work. I've had poor to middling results so far.

Is it worth it to buy the Porter Cable jig for this kind of use? I already own a PC 690LR router and template/guide bits.

Price aside, I feel like I'm cheating by not learning to do this by hand.

Thoughts?


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## KelleyCrafts

I would think if they are "keepsake" for your family or close friends they might mean more to do it by hand?

I think it's worth learning and they are fun to do. That's just me though. I'm a hybrid woodworker though and enjoy hand tool use more than power tool use but don't have time for al hand tools.

Each to their own though, I don't judge either way.


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## Loren

If you have a band saw you can use that.
It's the easiest way for a beginner to make 
dovetails that look hand cut, imo. A couple
of simple jigs and a 1/8" blade for cutting
out the waste are all that are required.

Cutting them by hand is less difficult than
you might think, but it does require practice
and some skill with sharpening chisels to
make clean-looking joints.


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## Holbs

I have not yet bought any dovetail jig for my router, nor the magnetic saw blade alignment tool that helps with cutting dovetails. I've done about 50 by hand and although not perfect for any project, I could see the progression of getting better. Why no jig? Personal preference. For I know when the time comes (soon) to make hand tool cabinet or some project with class, I want blood sweat & tears to go into the project including cursing & dignity so will go hand tools for dovetails.


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## waho6o9

Frank Klaus starts around the 19 minute mark and gives an excellent demonstration on making

dovetails by hand.

Enjoy the journey!


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## RichT

+1 on anything you can learn from Frank Klausz.

I think you definitely should learn to cut them by hand. It's a fundamental skill that every woodworker should have, and will teach you a great deal about using marking and cutting tools.

Just as I use power tools for other things in my shop, I use a jig for everyday cutting of dovetails. I bought a Leigh D4 about 15 or 20 years ago and it's a great jig. As far as the less expensive fixed jigs go, unless you're doing drawer boxes that are at even height increments, they aren't very useful, since you can't adjust the fingers for proper pin and tail alignment, nor can you do any sort of decorative spacing patterns.

So, if the question is to learn to do them by hand or buy an inexpensive fixed jig, I say do it by hand for sure.


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## bondogaposis

Setting up a jig for a small amount of dovetails will take longer than cutting them by hand. A dovetail jig is only efficient if you have a large quantity to do. Learn to cut them by hand, it is satisfying and rewarding.


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## TheFridge

Ditto.


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## onoitsmatt

Someone on a similar thread here on LJs suggested taking 2 boards. Cut tails in one, pins in the other. Fit the joint. Admire your mediocrity.

Then the next day, cut those off about an inch below the joint. Cut new pins and tails. Repeat each day for a week to ten days. Note how much better your last dovetails are than your first.

Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Thanks for all the responses. Something inside me felt like getting a jig wasn't the way for me to go to be satisfied with the results, even if they aren't magazine-cover perfect looking. I'll need to scrounge up some scrap and get to practicing.

Curious: are dovetail and box joints viable on plywood? I have a bunch of 3/4" plywood scrap laying about that might make for good practice pieces.

Thanks!


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## RichT

> Curious: are dovetail and box joints viable on plywood? I have a bunch of 3/4" plywood scrap laying about that might make for good practice pieces.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


I do dovetails in plywood on a jig for shop furniture all the time. It wouldn't be easy by hand though because of the chip-out. Same thing with box joints. Like Matt said, use some hardwood. Even something inexpensive like poplar or alder would work.


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## AlaskaGuy

Personal preference says plywood dovetails look like do do to me. I don't like seeing the layers.


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## TheFridge

Box joints definitely viable. William Ng has a video about making a simple jig for box joints.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Read the post above by Mat "Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too." 
I say- I have cut them by "hand" saw (traditional), Leigh dovetail jig and the CNC. A fine hand cut dovetail, will shine on your craftsmanship or it will look like "dog do-do".


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## AlaskaGuy

> Setting up a jig for a small amount of dovetails will take longer than cutting them by hand. A dovetail jig is only efficient if you have a large quantity to do. Learn to cut them by hand, it is satisfying and rewarding.
> 
> - bondogaposis


I agree with you 110%......but time to a lot of hobbyist means nothing.


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## Loren

I cut plenty of practice dovetails in pine
while I was learning. They got to be pretty
clean. One has to be extra careful when
chiseling the end grain in pine though
so it's not really a time saver.

I still have some of those pine shop boxes
I made, plywood bottoms nailed on. Hardwood
is probably better for practicing if you have
it on hand. Cutting plywood with hand
saws will dull them due to the hard glue in it.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Fridge as a catcher to a pitcher, let me help you, give this guy a link--
https://wnwoodworkingschool.com/make-an-accurate-box-joint-jig-simple-fast/


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## crmitchell

At one point I had 3 jigs, the Porter Cable, a Craftsman16" and a very old Leigh. Got rid of the latter 2. I tried the recommended practice of cutting by hand for a month. Now I do all by hand and love the result. My greatest challenges were the hanging tool cabinet using 7/8" maple with case and doors dovetailed; and half-blind ones on drawers. Careful layout and very sharp chisels. I finally sprang for a set of really good chisels and it made a lot of difference.

Give it a shot! There is nothing like seeing them go together perfectly.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Someone on a similar thread here on LJs suggested taking 2 boards. Cut tails in one, pins in the other. Fit the joint. Admire your mediocrity.
> 
> Then the next day, cut those off about an inch below the joint. Cut new pins and tails. Repeat each day for a week to ten days. Note how much better your last dovetails are than your first.
> 
> Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too.
> 
> - onoitsmatt


I think you must have posted this the moment I posted my question about using plywood! On hand, I've got a few planks of red oak, and several more of yellow poplar. I'll make some practice dovetails tomorrow and further tune up my plywood box joint jig I made last week for my router table.


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## TheFridge

DW, you're a sweetheart. Temperamental like a woman at times. But still a sweetheart.


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## bonesbr549

Well here's my take. I have the Leigh jig, and if you have a dresser or a lot to do, they speed production. If you only have a few hand cut is actually faster.

If you are starting and want to do it well quick. I'd suggest a dozuki, and David Baron's guide. Works great and you will be cutting like a pro. Liegh Valley has them now. I had to order from his website and waite for it to come across the pond.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/david-barron-magnetic-dovetail-saw-guide.aspx

Youtube his guide and watch.


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## Redoak49

I use a Leigh jig and set up is quick. I have done ones by hand but unless you do them frequently and practice they are tough to do.

But everyone can do it the way that makes them happy.


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## RichT

> I use a Leigh jig and set up is quick. I have done ones by hand but unless you do them frequently and practice they are tough to do.
> 
> But everyone can do it the way that makes them happy.
> 
> - Redoak49


Well said. About 99% of the dovetails I do are half-blind. The Leigh jig requires only one bit depth setting for both pins and tails, so I have a setup board for each bit that I can simply bottom out the bit on and be within one test board of getting it perfect.


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## msinc

I asked this same question when I first got on this forum and got pretty much the same bunch of answers…all of them good advice. Here is my take on dovetails from a beginners point of view: unless you have like a dozen or so boxes all the same size to do then it's probably best to just do them by hand. Jigs take some time to set up and again, unless you are doing several boxes all with the same set up the jig doesn't really do much for you. Once you have done a few you can be half way done with one side in the time it takes to set up a jig. 
I would definitely suggest you buy the best dovetail saw and have very sharp chisels just to help make things easy. The number one thing is to take your time.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I asked this same question when I first got on this forum and got pretty much the same bunch of answers…all of them good advice. Here is my take on dovetails from a beginners point of view: unless you have like a dozen or so boxes all the same size to do then it s probably best to just do them by hand. Jigs take some time to set up and again, unless you are doing several boxes all with the same set up the jig doesn t really do much for you. Once you have done a few you can be half way done with one side in the time it takes to set up a jig.
> I would definitely suggest you buy the best dovetail saw and have very sharp chisels just to help make things easy. The number one thing is to take your time.
> 
> - msinc


Thanks! I've been honing my chisels. I have an inexpensive push cut dovetail saw and a pull cut Dozuki saw. I find the latter, though cheap as well, cuts much faster. I tried practicing today on some yellow poplar, but I kept splitting the wood when chiseling out the waste (hence the need to hone my chisels).


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## AlaskaGuy

Lee Valley tools now has a Japanese Rip-Tooth Dozuki for dovetails. If I read correctly this is relatively new. I the past they have all been crosscut design and they still worked very well. they come with a hefty price tag of 99.00 and when there too dull to be useful you buy an new one.


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## mojapitt

I am all about the jig. But time is not a convenience I have.


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## RichT

The Gyokucho 372 is a reasonably priced saw, especially considering its quality. It's even recommended by David Barron, who has his own line of magnetic dovetail saw guides. I have the same saw and recommend it as well, although my endorsement doesn't carry the same weight as his. 

His videos on youtube are very informative too.


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## MT_Stringer

I bought the Porter Cable jig to cut dovetails in our kitchen cabinet drawers. At this stage of the game, I don't have the time to hand cut them, and honestly, I didn't want any part of it. But, that is just me.

Now, about that jig. I watched videos and read the instructions over and over. It can be mind boggling. But I made practice cuts again and again until I got it right. The set up is very important. It doesn't take much of a flub to get the joints off so the sides and ends of a drawer don't line up. However, I did get better.

And then it dawned on me…I am making drawers for my kitchen. Why do I need to make the dovetails for the rear? No one will ever see back there, and it would cut down on production time. OK. And that is what I did. The drawers were constructed out of 5/8 hard maple that I glued up and planed down. My sweetie loves her kitchen, and the breakfast buffet we built to gain experience and practice before tackling the kitchen.

Note: I forgot to mention that I cut half blind dovetails and not through dovetails. Set up was easier and I only needed to use one router and not change bits.

Good luck with the dovetails.
Mike


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## JayT

I have the David Barron magnetic guide that RichTaylor mentioned and love it. Really shortens the learning curve when hand cutting dovetails and helps you get good results quickly. I did a review of the guide here


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## AlaskaGuy

> The Gyokucho 372 is a reasonably priced saw, especially considering its quality. It s even recommended by David Barron, who has his own line of magnetic dovetail saw guides. I have the same saw and recommend it as well, although my endorsement doesn t carry the same weight as his.
> 
> His videos on youtube are very informative too.
> 
> - RichTaylor


Yep, I watched his video just a couple night's ago. I been using the Gyokucho-s 405 for a long time. Not for dovetails but general shop use. I can buy them locally for 42.00 and not mess with ordering and paying shipping.

I would agree they are good saws.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Just sayin' Why do we need dovetail drawers? Days of yesterday, drawers didn't have "mechanical" drawer slides to prevent structural failure of the drawer. Observe the previous photos above- I see these dovetails jointed drawers, riding on mechanical drawer slides. No brainer as to why the drawer box will not fail. Look at the attached image- no mechanical fasteners and in this case it would be beneficial to dovetail a drawer.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I made a couple of attempts at dovetail joints on some scrap yellow poplar and some red oak. I watched the aforementioned Frank Klausz video and here are my findings:

1. My Buck Bros. chisels that I thought were sharp were simply laughed at by the red oak. I was pretty happy with how sharp I had honed those things, but the oak was unimpressed.

2. Possibly due to the dull chisels, I would often create splits when hammering near a pin edge. The split usually extended down past the marker scratch I made at the start of the process, following the wood fiber direction.

3. I found that, in the hardwood at least, it was easier to do the pin board by hand, and do the tail section on my little bandsaw. The bandsaw helped me keep better control of the cuts, and Klausz mentioned in his video the trails require more precision than the pins. I feel like I'm cheating using the bandsaw for some reason. Like I need to do all work either entirely unplugged or entirely with a router and jig.

4. I need more practice.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?


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## AlaskaGuy

> Just sayin' Why do we need dovetail drawers? Days of yesterday, drawers didn't have "mechanical" drawer slides to prevent structural failure of the drawer. Observe the previous photos above- I see these dovetails jointed drawers, riding on mechanical drawer slides. No brainer as to why the drawer box will not fail. Look at the attached image- no mechanical fasteners and in this case it would be beneficial to dovetail a drawer.
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> - Desert_Woodworker


We don't need them but many people what them. For some reason, is seems to fascinate non woodworkers. They think its some kind of magical joint made by a magical woodworker. Don't as me why.

Looks wise I prefer the look of box joints much more that most dovetails. The only dovetails that I really are the one that pins come down to almost nothing at the point.

All my shop drawers are box joints.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Maybe at some point. I just started practicing them today so I don't have much to share.


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## AlaskaGuy

> Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker
> 
> Maybe at some point. I just started practicing them today so I don t have much to share.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


The sooner you start sharing the more progress well see. Or take photos of all work and post several at a time every now and then.


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## Desert_Woodworker

John there are a lot of experienced people here that will work with you- if you give us some visual progress. Otherwise, this will turn from helping John to a forum on dovetails.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Alright, then. I'll post some pics tomorrow.


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## RichT

OK. Dovetails. There are a lot of options, like drawer lock joints, that render them pretty much obsolete in today's world of adhesives.

But, it's a sign of craftsmanship. I don't care if you cut them by hand, or with a jig, they are beautiful, and the first thing I look at when I pull out a drawer.


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## Unknowncraftsman

I think it's good for a new woodworker to learn how to cut Dts by hand.They can be very challageing keep you on your game.But if your not interested in mastering hand tools then a Router and jig is probably the way to go.
It not only take patience but good eyes and lots of free time without pressure.
I enjoy the challenge.


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## TheFridge

Red oak sucks to dovetail by hand as far as I'm concerned. I hate red oak. Sorry :/

Coping or fret saw on the tails helps. Don't take more than 1/16 and definitely less when you get close to baseline. Don't wanna compress fibers. On half bind pins, don't try to take out too much at one time.


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## johnstoneb

Red oak is not easy to dovetail. It splits easily. As Fridge says when getting close to the line slow down and don't take off a lot. The fret or coping saw take out a lot of the waste quickly.
I did my first dovetails in soft wood and it is easier to work with than red oak. Maple makes for nice dovetails when learning.


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## BLarge

Good responses here. A bit of an alternative option, buy the jig, cut your boxes and sell it for a slight discount on Craigslist… it's like renting the jig from Home Depot, you're out some some money but you get the work done faster/ easier but you are not stuck with the full priced jig long-term.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Here's some pics of my DT attempt on Red Oak yesterday:


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## JohnnyBoy1981

And here's some on yellow poplar that I did today. The spacing isn't symmetrical; I was focusing on the technique.

*I love how some pics are fine and others are upside down even though I did nothing differently! I'm just going to delete the upside down pics.


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## AlaskaGuy




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## helluvawreck

If you have a good attitude and determination it is not that difficult to cut dovetails by hand. You need to get a few tools of reasonable quality and a book or good magazine or internet article about cutting dovetails. The article will have a list of required tools as well as instructions and technique. A good article will also explain a little about the necessity of having reasonable quality tools and knowing the care and how to maintain and sharpen the tools. If you will spend a couple or three days on how to do it and make a few practice corners you will pick it up quicker than you think. This is better than buying a jig and using a router. I can do it both ways but unless you are going to make a lot of dovetails I would stick to cutting them by hand. The tools that you will be using are used on lots of standard woodworking jobs anyways so you need these tools for other things. After you learn then practice every now and then.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## mitch_56

It's much, much faster with a jig (such as the Leigh or perhaps any other) than cutting by hand, unless you are Frank Klausz. Even for a single drawer, once you are used to the jig, the jig is much faster than even a skilled hand dovetailer (again, except Frank, who is the exception that proves the rule, imo).

I felt that perhaps a single drawer would be faster by hand, but I was wrong. Check out this video: two editors from a woodworking magazine, in direct competition, one with a jig, one by hand:






The guy using the jig finished his every single one of his 4 drawers before the "by hand" guy finished a single drawer. Makes a statement.

And if you are cutting a chest of drawers with 6 drawers, or a kitchen with drawers everywhere? Forget about it, you'll save tons of time.

Having said that, I've never used my jig "in anger", which I got as a gift. I did a coupla practice sets, and put it away. Too much noise and dust for me, but if you don't mind dealing with those things, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the method or the results.


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## Desert_Woodworker

John, Great progress . If you want heirloom dovetails you will need to cut by hand, for I do not know of any jig or machine that can cut something like this- stay with it.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I've read that it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but after only a few days my $16 pushcut dovetail saw keeps binding mid cut. My $12 marking tool doesn't make a nice straight scribe across the wood. It's needle is dull and the device doesn't stay locked in place. I guess you can't cheap out on somethings.

I'm going to step away from this for today. I'll revisit it tomorrow.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> John, Great progress . If you want heirloom dovetails you will need to cut by hand, for I do not know of any jig or machine that can cut something like this- stay with it.
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> - Desert_Woodworker


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## AlaskaGuy

> John, Great progress . If you want heirloom dovetails you will need to cut by hand, for I do not know of any jig or machine that can cut something like this- stay with it.
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> - Desert_Woodworker


Those are the kind of dovetail I like.


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## TheFridge

I found marking dovetails took a lot longer in the beginner than the step that counts. Cutting them. So I practiced almost every night for a couple weeks on a piece of scrap like this and alternating cuts on the left and right side of the line.










Good enough cut










Excellent cut for me. Can still barely see the line and once i clean it up it'll be on the money.










Close enough. I could pare to fit but it'll have the tendency to follow the grain at times and tearout a bigger chip or shaving than wanted if not careful.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I found marking dovetails took a lot longer in the beginner than the step that counts. Cutting them. So I practiced almost every night for a couple weeks on a piece of scrap like this and alternating cuts on the left and right side of the line.
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> - TheFridge


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Hey Fridge,
Thanks for taking the time to take these pics!


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## TheFridge

No problem.

I'm a huge fan of narrow pins myself.


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## chrisstef

Fridge nailed what used to get me all boogered up; cutting to the inside or outside of your mark. Id tend to cut right on my line and always left gaps. One day i shook the idiot out of my head … thickness of my saw plate was the gap.

Another thing easily overlooked is flat and square lumber. Super super important.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Then I think I'm going to spend some time in the coming days cutting kerfs on alternating sides of lines. I need that practice. I also stopped by my local woodworking store and bought what I hope is a higher quality saw.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Here's my first bit of practice sawing lines with my new dovetail saw. Don't worry: I won't bore you all with daily pics of me trying to cut straight lines!


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## johnstoneb

You have marked and cut your dovetails backwards. I have done that before. The way you cut them the tail board has no mechanical connection to the pin board.

Fine Woodworking had a very good article on marking and cutting dovetails. It actually was what finally convinced me that I could learn to cut dovetails. I can't find the article now but it was 2-3 years ago.

I use a japanese dozuki saw It's easy to start on the pull stroke. Others use a western style saw just practice.

Don't buy a jig until you know how too mark and cut by hand. It makes setting up the jig much easier. You will also find it's easier and faster to cut by hand unless you have a ton of the same kind to cut.

Get something beside that red oak to practice on. I actually started on pine then went to maple. When I did finally cut some in Red Oak I talked bad to it a lot and had to fill in a lot of chip out.


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## JohnnyBoy1981




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## Desert_Woodworker

Great effort John!!!!!


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Great effort John!!!!!
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Thanks!


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> You have marked and cut your dovetails backwards. I have done that before. The way you cut them the tail board has no mechanical connection to the pin board.
> 
> Fine Woodworking had a very good article on marking and cutting dovetails. It actually was what finally convinced me that I could learn to cut dovetails. I can t find the article now but it was 2-3 years ago.
> 
> I use a japanese dozuki saw It s easy to start on the pull stroke. Others use a western style saw just practice.
> 
> Don t buy a jig until you know how too mark and cut by hand. It makes setting up the jig much easier. You will also find it s easier and faster to cut by hand unless you have a ton of the same kind to cut.
> 
> Get something beside that red oak to practice on. I actually started on pine then went to maple. When I did finally cut some in Red Oak I talked bad to it a lot and had to fill in a lot of chip out.
> 
> - johnstoneb


Yeah, I noticed it was backwards too after I cut them. That's why it got 're-purposed' for practicing lines 

And to paraphrase 'Anchorman': Red oak…was a bad choice. The yellow poplar is what I have on hand and messing with it has cut down my swearing by quite a lot as compared to the oak. I'm sure I have some scrap pine around here someplace I can use for practice; I save all my decent-sized scrap woods in a 35 lbs garbage can in my garage.


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## pintodeluxe

I like the Akeda jig. It seems to make perfect dovetails every time. Through DT's are especially easy to cut with it.
The Leigh isn't bad either.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Keep practicing, the payoff is so worth it.


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## RichT

> John, Great progress . If you want heirloom dovetails you will need to cut by hand, for I do not know of any jig or machine that can cut something like this- stay with it.
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> - Desert_Woodworker


That's a copyrighted photo from the Philadelphia Woodworks website, where they are offering classes on cutting dovetails for a fee. You also might want to pay particular attention to Rule #2 of Lumberjocks.

While you didn't claim that those were dovetails you cut, if you're going to upload photos from another site, you should give credit to them, particularly when they are in the business of teaching woodworking and that photo was on their page for the class they teach on dovetails. As such, it is advertising for their school, and therefore has a monetary value to them.


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## tonyennis

I would learn to cut them by hand, if for no other reason that then you won't have to listen to a router.

In the process, you'll probably lean a lot about stock preparation, sharpening, and layout.


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## Desert_Woodworker

To others the Taylor person is a troll that I have blocked from my poostings. Now wait and see on how he will respond….
If any other people are currious- I used a photo from Pintrest to make a point. The only thing I care about is that John is trying hard and getting some good advice on hand cut dovetails.


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## AlaskaGuy

> To others the Taylor person is a troll that I have blocked from my poostings. Now wait and see on how he will respond….
> If any other people are curious- I used a photo from Pintrest to make a point. The only thing I care about is that John is trying hard and getting some good advice on hand cut dovetails.
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


I wouldn't worry about it. I did a Google picture search on that image and found page after page with that photo on many different sites. I've been on these forums for years and many people do the same thing to make a point. I's not like you're trying to make money by using the photo. Google, Pinterest and a bunch of other big companies routinely collect picture off the the internet and use them.

Hell do a a Google search "bonnet top highboy" and you'll find an image of me standing next to my version of a Bonnet top Highboy that I built 20 years ago. Nobody ask me if they could use that photo. Same thing with my Boodwood Kitchen…it's out there on the net without my permission.

It use to be and may still be that the term of service on a lot of forums said anything you upload to their site they could use it as the saw fit.

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZituujVtgXRGQLKtvwtACNpBffBulEGAkzOV8H2FM-iL5A4jV1Txt_1BaRT9xB5D2FRDtaB5pDIGPIQ5dWhPJ7AUGAoOEuHSx5_1MfWl-2yYg9x8nO0zILSNmDfOpVJBn00Oj1mcZWgT3o3YSth2egmdkZ1GUO-t9yDJl76320V7MtdxXgF_10wDYa-3XETzezdz1HhK2UbyRf3czacVhhj5HjvtX70PaPvn9pwb7kxNC5HjwU93_1ll0u8zm_1lK2lhE_1ZmeSnQDGZZKXKWUXP1Ypw9sz76V-z2wHfIyndrRbwvwgebIvZnBW67Q82XVH8iBQWW0I-TbrYFwepvp1RMaKxvjFYmyXg

Rich just likes to stir a bit. I would pay him no mind.

LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC AND HELP JOHNNY OUT.


----------



## johnstoneb

Practice pays when learning dovetails. Always mark your waste and cut on the waste side of the line. It can be very frustrating when you have finished your cuts and find you cut a couple on the wrong side.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

Here's a bit more of an update: I did the pins side by hand (I wish I had bought a more expensive dozuki saw over the weekend and not the Veritas push saw; the latter is difficult to get a cut started with). I cheated on the tails and used my Ryobi band saw. Final fit and finish is still tricky: the boards don't seat all the way into one another:


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

Wrong try again.Your pin board and tails are backwards.


----------



## TheFridge

Yeah he's right 

If you mark your baseline with a marking gauge, your chisel will sit in that line. As long as you take it easy and pare from the baseline you're good. Don't use a mallet. It can compress the fibers behind the line.

With your saw, draw backwards first. The first couple forward strokes should only have the weight of the saw or less. Otherwise it might jump. Only get down on it once it's established.

If it was easy everyone would be doing it. It requires practice. One you get there it'll be like riding a bike. You might get rusty after a long break but it'll come back quick.

Keep at em.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

While you are backwards I believe I see some improvement in you sawing.


----------



## onoitsmatt

I applaud your effort. I have fixed your dovetail (poorly) below. Your boards should fit together this way:










You're cuts are looking better.

+1 on what Fridge said. Use the pull stroke to get started and very little downward force on the push stroke (I even lift the saw a tad to reduce downward pressure sometimes if the saw teeth are a little grabby).


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

Crap in a hat!! Lol!
That's embarrassing. I ran back to the garage and recut some new trails on the bandsaw plus created a quick reminder for myself. It fits better than before (go figure), but getting them seated together nice and flush is tricky, especially trying to get tge bottom space between the tails nice and flat.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> While you are backwards I believe I see some improvement in you sawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I've been doing 'drills' every day.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


----------



## smitdog

Watching your progress on this is great fun, I can see the improvement already! I have never tried dovetails before as I've only built simple rabbit style joints so far but it's something I definitely want to learn. It's cool to see your attempts and then read all the tips from everyone. Can't wait to try some out myself!


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

> Watching your progress on this is great fun, I can see the improvement already! I have never tried dovetails before as I ve only built simple rabbit style joints so far but it s something I definitely want to learn. It s cool to see your attempts and then read all the tips from everyone. Can t wait to try some out myself!
> 
> - smitdog


Thanks! It's becoming more enjoyable as I've been working on them. I need to keep up the practice though.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Looks like great progress John. Pictures are improving. Also, I am enjoying the encouragement and help that you are getting from the Jocks (nice job fellows)


----------



## TaySC

> Watching your progress on this is great fun, I can see the improvement already! I have never tried dovetails before as I ve only built simple rabbit style joints so far but it s something I definitely want to learn. It s cool to see your attempts and then read all the tips from everyone. Can t wait to try some out myself!
> 
> - smitdog


This.

Come late fall, when I'm spending more time in my garage, I plan on practicing as well. Watching this thread gives me an idea of what I will be getting myself into.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Tay and others, I hope that you stay interested the "art" of a fine hand cut dovetails. This is an aspect of my woodworking that I did not accomplish- remember to post your attempts here. Best to you.
For those who are interested- Zilch on my attempts for the Hand Cut, switched to Mechanical; i.e. Incra and the router table and finally to Leigh. Today, I do not use dovetails in my box construction(s). BUT!!! If you are making a keepsake project- It is the hand cut dovetail with those "narrow" cut that cannot be replicated!
"Go Jonny Boy"
Alaska, Here is an example of one of my first mechanical attempts 1994- Go ahead and Google it 









This was the fan fare in 1994 (AD) The point being it was "fancy" or a fad in woodworking, may still be. Then look at the picture that I posted above- It pales in comparison to a hand cut dovetail, as you know.


----------



## Kirk650

I use a jig for some boxes, but when it really matters I grab the good chisels and all the things I use for hand cut dovetails and get after it. I still do a few practice dovetails to get back in the mindset and to be sure I'm still doing it right. I got rid of my push-cut saws, and went to pull cut saws. Thinner kerf and it just seems easier to make good cuts. And I have a couple of work lights I use. Really good lighting matters, though maybe it wouldn't if I was younger.

Practice practice practice. And keep the chisels sharp.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

> Tay and others, I hope that you stay interested the "art" of a fine hand cut dovetails. This is an aspect of my woodworking that I did not accomplish- remember to post your attempts here. Best to you.
> For those who are interested- Zilch on my attempts for the Hand Cut, switched to Mechanical; i.e. Incra and the router table and finally to Leigh. Today, I do not use dovetails in my box construction(s). BUT!!! If you are making a keepsake project- It is the hand cut dovetail with those "narrow" cut that cannot be replicated!
> "Go Jonny Boy"
> Alaska, Here is an example of one of my first mechanical attempts 1994- Go ahead and Google it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was the fan fare in 1994 (AD) The point being it was "fancy" or a fad in woodworking, may still be. Then look at the picture that I posted above- It pales in comparison to a hand cut dovetail, as you know.
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Why would I want to Google it??


----------



## AlaskaGuy

Desert_Woodworker

Disregard my last post "Why would I want to Google it?? I though you were addressing me but then I realized it someone else you were addressing.


----------



## rwe2156

No, a craftsman can't blame their tools-if hes' using quality tools.

By the same token, trying to learn a skill with inferior tools leads to frustration and you blaming yourself when it may not be all your fault.

Now, specific to what you're doing, the 2 biggest factors are 1) accurate marking and 2) learning to saw straight and perpendicular.

When you mark out the tails or pins, be sure you are LEAVING the pencil line.

There are many videos on cutting dovetails I recommend watching them and seeing which technique you like, stick with it and give it a go.

I would also stay away from hardwood like oak. Most drawers are constructed of softer wood like pine or poplar anyway.

My suggestion is to buy these chisels, a mallet and a good saw.

And BTW guys, posting pics of your exquisite joinery doesn't serve a helpful purpose to a newbie.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

rew I like the way you space your sentences making your thoughts easy to read.

And that's a nice set of chisels you have .


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Alaska, No I don't want to start up with anybody. I was trying to make a joke about your very kind response to me about how you googled my first pic.  Which is fine and we all have a right to check and verify, but my current pic was taken last night and my thoughts to you were meant to be lighthearted. Oh well.
RWE- Question- In my experience with learning woodworking there are some "pictures" involved. This forum is choosing between mechanical and hand cut dovetails. The 1st pic was to show fine craftsmanship of a handcut version versus my second pic the Incra mechanical version and concluding with hand cuts winning hands down. 
I would like to see what type of pictures would be helpful to a newbie?


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

> No, a craftsman can t blame their tools-if hes using quality tools.
> 
> By the same token, trying to learn a skill with inferior tools leads to frustration and you blaming yourself when it may not be all your fault.
> 
> Now, specific to what you re doing, the 2 biggest factors are 1) accurate marking and 2) learning to saw straight and perpendicular.
> 
> When you mark out the tails or pins, be sure you are LEAVING the pencil line.
> 
> There are many videos on cutting dovetails I recommend watching them and seeing which technique you like, stick with it and give it a go.
> 
> I would also stay away from hardwood like oak. Most drawers are constructed of softer wood like pine or poplar anyway.
> 
> My suggestion is to buy these chisels, a mallet and a good saw.
> 
> And BTW guys, posting pics of your exquisite joinery doesn t serve a helpful purpose to a newbie.
> 
> - rwe2156


 What kind of mallet is best to use? I have a beech woodworking mallet from England I've been using. I've seen the round mallets both with and without a doft covering. Some people seem to use ball pein hammers which seems odd to me.


----------



## Loren

I use a ball pein hammer. That's because
my chopping chisels have rings on the
ends for use with a hammer. Hammers
will ruin the handles of un-hooped chisels.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

> I use a ball pein hammer. That s because
> my chopping chisels have rings on the
> ends for use with a hammer. Hammers
> will ruin the handles of un-hooped chisels.
> 
> - Loren


My current Home Depot Buck Bros. chisels have a metal cap on the end. I don't know if my all beech hammer should be used with them, but it hasnt been damaged. I was using a claw hammer but it was too heavy.


----------



## Smitty_Cabinetshop

Johnny, mallets are about feel. Now, there is conventional wisdom, such as, don't hit hornbeam socket chisels with steel. But otherwise, weight and even design (round vs. square, face angles, etc) boil down to this: Can you focus on the work at the end of the chisel and less on being able to swing the mallet with accuracy?

Potential issues: Do you have to hit extra hard because the mallet itself might be lacking mass? Getting tired quickly? Too many glancing blows?


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## iminmyshop

You can easily cut the tails on the table saw. For the pins I use the magnetic dovetail guides from David Barron which work really well for me. They are reasonably priced. He has a good educational video demonstrating their use http://davidbarronfurniture.blogspot.com/2012/02/hand-cut-dovetails-made-easy.html

The commerical jigs work fine but most limit you to the fat dovetails beause of the router bit selection. To make the fine, nice looking, skinny ones you have to do it by hand. Many also don't let you do variably spaced dovetails.


----------



## TaySC

Has anyone here tried these?

http://www.katzmoseswoodworking.com/new-products/

If so, are they worth the $35?


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## AlaskaGuy

What ever you do don't buy a round mallet. If you do you'll spend the rest of your life picking it up of the floor. DAMHIKT


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## TheFridge

If you don't have a combo square (or square period), marking knife, or marking gauge you should acquire them very soon.

A chisel will sit in your knife lines. That's what makes the baseline (what you call the bottom) nice and clean.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Fridge and others- I agree that a very helpful way to to scribe a cutting line is with a marking knife as suggested. 
If I am not mistaken Stumpy Nubs has a video on making your own "homemade marking kives. 
Then we have Tays question as to the product that he posted- many after market devices- god or bad? Many.
We as woodworkers are attemptimg to achieve results that pleases us. In Woodworking you succeed or fail or in some cases just get by. Great advice fellow Jocks


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I did by a cheap marking gauge that only succeeded in tearing up the wood fiber in a jagged line no matter how gently I scribbed it or held the workpiece against the gauge's 'fence' (?). I have a Veritas model on the way. I don't have a marking knife per se, but I do have an Xacto knife floating about somewhere. I have two combination squares that have been very helpful with other projects. They are Empire I believe.

I did buy a 24oz. non-marring dead blow hammer this evening. I thought perhaps the weight transference of the interior shot might make chiseling out the waste from the dovetails more efficient. I only messed with it a bit, and I'm not sure I like it. It's easy to focus on the chisel and not worry about the hammer missing the handle and hitting me (unlike my small 7 oz claw hammer). It's also slightly quieter than the claw hammer out my beechwood hammer.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Go John Go 
Alaska- don't you have an axe up there-? you do make a good point!


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## RichT

> I don t have a marking knife per se, but I do have an Xacto knife floating about somewhere.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


An X-Acto knife will work just fine. That alone will improve your results versus marking with a pencil.

Like Fridge said, you can use the cut the knife makes to fit the chisel into without having to try to align it visually to a pencil mark. Watch Frank Klausz sometime, he makes a slight impression along the knife mark with his chisel (bevel towards the waste side) and then comes in from the waste side at an angle to scoop out some of the wood. What this does is gives you a perfect "kerf" to start your saw cut in, and automatically aligns your saw blade to the waste side of the mark.


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## AlaskaGuy

Rich is right, An X-Acto knife will work just fine. I use one quite often in my shop.


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## AlaskaGuy

For Johnny, a fine woodworking video on marking knives.

If you don't want to watch the whole test jump to 8:07 mark and see the Xacto knife

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2008/04/01/tool-review-video-marking-knives


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## Slider20

Good luck with them. I made some pretty basic ones by hand just to try it out.

Although I see many successful hand cut dovetails, I don't have the patience or interest to perfect the craft. I just use a router with a jig.

In general I don't like overly complicated handwork.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> For Johnny, a fine woodworking video on marking knives.
> 
> If you don t want to watch the whole test jump to 8:07 mark and see the Xacto knife
> 
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/2008/04/01/tool-review-video-marking-knives
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


I watched the video, and realized I had that Flexcut chip carving knife he tried out. It's a great knife but the X-Acto has a slimmer body and can can get into tighter spaces better than the Flexcut.


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## Unknowncraftsman

My favorite marking knife has specific shape to the tip it's not real pointy.The tip is relaxed and sweep back this helps to get a line marked without it digging into the fibers.The first pass is also very lite.
I can share a pic tommorrw is anyone is interested.
Also I'm a self proclaimed Dovetail master 

Johnny boy you should try lots of different knifes see what works best for you.


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## RichT

> Also I m a self proclaimed Dovetail master
> 
> - Aj2


Game on! Show us your stuff.


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## AlaskaGuy

> Also I m a self proclaimed Dovetail master
> 
> - Aj2
> 
> Game on! Show us your stuff.
> 
> - RichTaylor


Take a look in his gallery.


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## AlaskaGuy

> My favorite marking knife has specific shape to the tip it s not real pointy.The tip is relaxed and sweep back this helps to get a line marked without it digging into the fibers.The first pass is also very lite.
> I can share a pic tommorrw is anyone is interested.
> Also I m a self proclaimed Dovetail master
> 
> Johnny boy you should try lots of different knifes see what works best for you.
> 
> - Aj2


Silly boy, we always like pictures.


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## waho6o9

Sounds good Aj2


----------



## RichT

> Take a look in his gallery.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


He does beautiful work for sure. So do you, AG. I'm constantly amazed at the number of really talented members here. It reminds me how much there is to learn.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

I watched the video, and realized I had that Flexcut chip carving knife he tried out. It's a great knife but the X-Acto has a slimmer body and can can get into tighter spaces better than the Flexcut.

Any opinions on that 24 oz dead blow hammer for chisel work? Too much hammer for the task? The all beech joiner's mallet I have seems too light.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

I would find a smaller hammer.
Here's a shot of my favorite marking knives.One is a Hock marking knife and the other just carving knife with a very specific shape on the tip.


















I also have a set of Japanese left and right but they are for very soft woods.I don't use them very often


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## pontic

Hand cut them like the rest of us plebeians do.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Aj2- Great pics on the knives- and the advice that you offer. I never looked at your projects until the above post by Alaska Guy- Aj2 is the "dovetail Meister" (Meister? from the Game of Thrones") 
Here is another example of a mechanical dovetail- this time with an image of a CNC product vs the Incra jig that I posted previously- I have the same thoughts "fad and fancy" 
Go Johny Boy Go


----------



## AlaskaGuy

> Aj2- Great pics on the knives- and the advice that you offer. I never looked at your projects until the above post by Alaska Guy- Aj2 is the "dovetail Meister" (Meister? from the Game of Thrones")
> Here is another example of a mechanical dovetail- this time with an image of a CNC product vs the Incra jig that I posted previously- I have the same thoughts "fad and fancy"
> Go Johny Boy Go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker
> Personally I wouldn't give you two cent for those CNC made dovetails. It's has nothing to do with being made on a CNN.
> It's all about how they look. Those look way to busy for my taste. The white dots are ridiculous and narrow end of the pin is too wide. I'll pass on those. I doubt very much posting all these fancy machine dovetail is a lot of help for Johnny.


----------



## Unknowncraftsman

Thanks for nickname  that's a interesting joint for some reason it reminds me of middle eastern decor?
Since i am also a woodcarver I try to combine sculpture with tradional woodworks.
Macassar Ebony Valet thru dovetailed.A very challenging piece to make.I spend almost two months only working on it when I was in the right mood.


----------



## Desert_Woodworker

Meister AJ2 good stuff

Alaska- I posted that photo and stated "fad and fancy" - Think of it as the Devil tempting Johnny Boy- to give up, or show others the "mechanical" - which pale in comparison …..


----------



## RichT

> Aj2- Great pics on the knives- and the advice that you offer. I never looked at your projects until the above post by Alaska Guy- Aj2 is the "dovetail Meister" (Meister? from the Game of Thrones")
> Here is another example of a mechanical dovetail- this time with an image of a CNC product vs the Incra jig that I posted previously- I have the same thoughts "fad and fancy"
> Go Johny Boy Go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Did you make that?


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

Here's this weekend's dovetail drill:

1. The pins are becoming easier to cut with practice, although my kerf often veers when trying to do the tails by hand. Scoring with an X-Acto is helpful.

2. Even when using my better marking gauge, I find it difficult to cut a clean bottom or lower flat part with either the pins or trails. I have to do a lot of clean up with files, a copy saw and sometimes a bandsaw. This usually leads to too much material removal.

3. I think part of the problem is that a lot of my practice stock is pretty thick, so I'm going to try to practice on wood that's no more than 3/4" or so.

Despite this stuff, I'm happy with where things are moving!


----------



## RichT

Huge progress, JB. Really impressive in such a short amount of time. I mean that too. I agree about the 3/4" stock.

Edit: You can get some help on the clean and square bottoms by clamping a guide block to the top of the board, lined up with your cut line, to hold your chisel flat against as you pare out the waste. It'll help you keep it vertical and straight.


----------



## RichT

Duplicate post. Doh! When will I learn to look before I hit save?


----------



## AlaskaGuy

Wow, what an improvement from day one! That's what I call progress. You're on your way.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

Thanks guys! I appreciate the positive feedback! (And I honestly mean that!) I'm happy with my progress, but will make a few changes from here on out that will hopefully keep me headed in the right direction.

Rich, I'm going to try that guide block. I've been gouging with my chisels a bit, so that may be the answer.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

Every body is different so the may not work for you…or maybe it will. Make a conscious effort to know where you elbow is when you're sawing and keep it in close to your body. I know that helps me when I'm try to saw accurately.


----------



## TheFridge

I stand to the side. The saw pretty much goes across my body.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

Life got in the way of my practicing my cuts. I made this practice bit Friday evening. I'm still seeing some of the same issues, but using a thinner slab of wood and an X-Acto knife mated things easier.

Chiseling is a technique that I haven't grasped.
According to one video I watched, the top of the chisel goes just above the scored line, with the bevel facing the bulk of the waste material. Hitting the chisel wilk cause it to shift back into that scored line. So from then on, do I chisel straight down? 
It seems like that causes a lot of stress on the wood, and I've been getting cracks during chiseling. I circled it in one of my pictures.

Also, I may not be scoring the tails correctly because I always have a pin or two (usually on an end) that needs to be filed to remove excess wood.

Precision is obviously paramount in nearly every step of this process!


----------



## TaySC

> Chiseling is a technique that I haven t grasped.
> According to one video I watched, the top of the chisel goes just above the scored line, with the bevel facing the bulk of the waste material. Hitting the chisel wilk cause it to shift back into that scored line. So from then on, do I chisel straight down?
> It seems like that causes a lot of stress on the wood, and I ve been getting cracks during chiseling. I circled it in one of my pictures.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


JB, you encouraged me to tinker with finger joints for the first time and I had the same issue when it came to chiseling. I was using some cheap soft wood and too large of a chisel probably, but I also found an issue with the wood cracking a little.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

I'm using some cheap softwood also. It works ok except for the aforementioned issues. I was trying red oak at first, but it might as well have been adamantium!


----------



## TaySC

I just got my new saw a few days back and had to test it out. Now I need to get some smaller (and better) chisels as well.

I love the way the saw cuts nice clean straight lines, but until I get some good chiselw, the clean out is all but impossible.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

> I just got my new saw a few days back and had to test it out. Now I need to get some smaller (and better) chisels as well.
> 
> I love the way the saw cuts nice clean straight lines, but until I get some good chiselw, the clean out is all but impossible.
> 
> - TaySC


What saw did you get?


----------



## Loren

Hardwoods will take the detail better. If enough
of the waste is removed on the bevel side,
the chisel won t move back and can be registered
in the line. Also take very gentle cuts at the
outside where it's so sensitive to bruising. Once
you're down into the cut 1/8" or so you can 
hit the chisel harder.


----------



## TaySC

> What saw did you get?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Alaska, I got one of the Japanese saws that I had seen mentioned a good bit. Not sure where it rates in the grand scheme of things.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JW19U8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## TaySC

> Hardwoods will take the detail better. If enough
> of the waste is removed on the bevel side,
> the chisel won t move back and can be registered
> in the line. Also take very gentle cuts at the
> outside where it s so sensitive to bruising. Once
> you re down into the cut 1/8" or so you can
> hit the chisel harder.
> 
> - Loren


I definitely need to get some hardwood to start practicing on.

The softwood was all I had on hand and I figured it was better than nothing for the time being. I did realize that my chisel set just isn't going to cut it though.


----------



## AlaskaGuy

> What saw did you get?
> 
> - AlaskaGuy
> 
> From everything I've read that a good saw.
> Alaska, I got one of the Japanese saws that I had seen mentioned a good bit. Not sure where it rates in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JW19U8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> - TaySC


----------



## RichT

> Alaska, I got one of the Japanese saws that I had seen mentioned a good bit. Not sure where it rates in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> - TaySC


I have that saw. I recommended it earlier in this thread, and it's a great choice.


----------



## JohnnyBoy1981

> Hardwoods will take the detail better. If enough
> of the waste is removed on the bevel side,
> the chisel won t move back and can be registered
> in the line. Also take very gentle cuts at the
> outside where it s so sensitive to bruising. Once
> you re down into the cut 1/8" or so you can
> hit the chisel harder.
> 
> - Loren


 So how should I begin debulking the waste with a chisel then? Should I start at just above the score line like I have been, then chisel up and away from that line, taking small chunks away from the waste portion with gentle taps? 
Also, the chisels that I use are from Home Depot and Lowe's. They do ok in softwood but not in hard. If I were to upgrade chisels, what type of metal and other characteristics should I look for?


----------



## TaySC

In one of the threads in saw some people recommending two cherries, so I have been looking at their chisels. They are a little expensive, so I may just get one or two of the smaller ones to see how I like them.

https://twocherriesusa.com/product/bevel-edge-chisel/

Like you, I'm wondering what others people would recommend, especially for the tedious chore of cleaning out box joints or dovetails.


----------



## RichT

> In one of the threads in saw some people recommending two cherries, so I have been looking at their chisels. They are a little expensive, so I may just get one or two of the smaller ones to see how I like them.
> 
> https://twocherriesusa.com/product/bevel-edge-chisel/
> 
> Like you, I m wondering what others people would recommend, especially for the tedious chore of cleaning out box joints or dovetails.
> 
> - TaySC


You can remove most of the waste with a coping saw or fret saw. The Knew Concepts fret saw is awesome, but really expensive. You can get a decent Olson coping saw for under $15. With it, you can clear out the bulk of the material, and then pare with your chisel up to your marks.

The difference between a coping saw and a fret saw is that the coping saw connects to the posts on the ends of the blade, and the blade is thicker. A fret saw clamps the blade, and the blade is extremely fine. You can make 90º turns in your cut. With a coping saw you'll need to make several passes, one diagonally from the top of one side of your waste zone to the bottom of the other. You can then cut almost straight across the bottom, and make one more pass to get it pretty clean.

For decent quality at a reasonable price I went with the 8 piece imperial Narex chisel set. It's about $105 right now on Amazon. Their 4 piece set would do you just fine and it's half that price.


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## TheFridge

Cheap or expensive. Chisels have to be sharp. Especially in softwoods which tend to tearout fibers.

Try asking a local cabinet shop for offcut. usually anything you can take off their hands will help them. Down here it's mainly poplar and cypress with a little maple and oak thrown in.

I would suggest watching as many videos on dovetailing as you can.

Keep it going bud. Work on cleaning the baseline up.


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## CL810

Watch David Barrons's videos on your tube.


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## Loren

> Hardwoods will take the detail better. If enough
> of the waste is removed on the bevel side,
> the chisel won t move back and can be registered
> in the line. Also take very gentle cuts at the
> outside where it s so sensitive to bruising. Once
> you re down into the cut 1/8" or so you can
> hit the chisel harder.
> 
> - Loren
> 
> So how should I begin debulking the waste with a chisel then? Should I start at just above the score line like I have been, then chisel up and away from that line, taking small chunks away from the waste portion with gentle taps?
> Also, the chisels that I use are from Home Depot and Lowe s. They do ok in softwood but not in hard. If I were to upgrade chisels, what type of metal and other characteristics should I look for?
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


I saw out the waste with a coping saw and
then pair back to less than 1/8" from the
line. Then, chop very lightly in the line
so the chisel doesn't move back, flip the
chisel over and pair out perhaps 1/16" of
waste. It's delicate at first near the face
of the board where it is so sensitive to 
bruising. With softer woods especially it
takes a careful touch. After the first cut
chop down a little deeper and repeat the
pairing cut to get the waste out. With
less than an 1/8" of material in the way 
you pairing cut can be made from the end
of the waste.

I've tried the method of setting the chisel
forward of the line and trying to predict
how far back it will move, but I found 
getting a really clean, even line from joint
to joint was difficult that way. Of that approach
though I can certainly say it is faster and
the joints will be just as strong. If you're
looking for a really refined aesthetic though
I think a more careful and slow approach 
works better.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I saw out the waste with a coping saw and
> then pair back to less than 1/8" from the
> line. Then, chop very lightly in the line
> so the chisel doesn t move back, flip the
> chisel over and pair out perhaps 1/16" of
> waste. It s delicate at first near the face
> of the board where it is so sensitive to
> bruising. With softer woods especially it
> takes a careful touch. After the first cut
> chop down a little deeper and repeat the
> pairing cut to get the waste out. With
> less than an 1/8" of material in the way
> you pairing cut can be made from the end
> of the waste.
> 
> I ve tried the method of setting the chisel
> forward of the line and trying to predict
> how far back it will move, but I found
> getting a really clean, even line from joint
> to joint was difficult that way. Of that approach
> though I can certainly say it is faster and
> the joints will be just as strong. If you re
> looking for a really refined aesthetic though
> I think a more careful and slow approach
> works better.
> 
> - Loren


I'll try this technique then.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Has anybody tried the David Barron aluminum and magnetic dovetail guides? They're expensive, but I wonder if it would help with proper saw alignment.

It does nothing for my keeping a clean, even bottom on the tailboard. A lot of that just requires practice.

One other question: I'd read that one the tail board is complete (and assuming the pin board is made), any cuts or alterations to get the two to fit together should ONLY be done on the pins NOT the tail. Why is this?


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## RichT

Take a look at post #29 right here in your own thread. JayT posted a link to a review he did of it.

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3849


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## Loren

> One other question: I d read that one the tail board is complete (and assuming the pin board is made), any cuts or alterations to get the two to fit together should ONLY be done on the pins NOT the tail. Why is this?
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


I think the pins are just easier to shave the way
you want them due to the grain orientation.


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## JayT

I have one of David Barron's guides and use it quite a bit. It does help with saw alignment, as well as allowing you to spend a lot less time marking. There a link for the review I did toward the top of the thread, but here it is again if you didn't catch it the first time. While I can now use a saw well enough to not need the guide to get straight cuts, the time savings is still totally worth it. Starting out, having that extra help on the alignment allowed me to get better results and not get overly frustrated with my progress.

I'm one of the Neanderthals that chisels out waste instead of using a fret or coping saw. My process is to first mark the baseline with a marking gauge that has a blade so that it cuts the fibers instead of tearing like those that have a pin. The first chisel cut is made about 1/8in above the baseline on each side of the board. This one doesn't have to be very deep, just one firm whack with the mallet on a sharp chisel gets it deep enough. Then the board is flipped up and the first bit of waste is split out from the end of the board with a chisel.

For the next cut, the chisel is dropped right into the baseline and a cut is made straight down. Since there is very little material left, the bevel of the chisel pushes it out instead of the wood pushing the chisel back. The remaining waste in the center of the board helps support to prevent blowout. If done correctly, this will establish a very nice, clean edge for your dovetails. The next cut is made with a slight undercut of 1-2 degrees. This allows the dovetail to fit easily and the end grain doesn't help with strength, the glue just needs to go on the sides of the pins and tails. Board is flipped up and another piece of waste is split off.

Repeat the undercut strikes and splitting off waste until you are clear through the thickness and then clean up the corners (these are a frequent culprit for dovetails not fitting well).

Nothing wrong with sawing out the waste if you want to go that route-I'll be getting a Knew Concepts saw at some point. Just know that it is possible to get good, tight dovetails by chiseling out the waste, as well.


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## CL810

I have Barron's dovetail jig (1:6) and it is a great help.

A paring jig, which you can make, will greatly help with the shoulders.









As to the question of adjustments being made to the pins, you typically have a knife line at the top of your pins which makes it easier to set your chisel to. General rule is: saw to pencil lines, chisel to knife lines.


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## TaySC

> You can remove most of the waste with a coping saw or fret saw. The Knew Concepts fret saw is awesome, but really expensive. You can get a decent Olson coping saw for under $15. With it, you can clear out the bulk of the material, and then pare with your chisel up to your marks.
> 
> The difference between a coping saw and a fret saw is that the coping saw connects to the posts on the ends of the blade, and the blade is thicker. A fret saw clamps the blade, and the blade is extremely fine. You can make 90º turns in your cut. With a coping saw you ll need to make several passes, one diagonally from the top of one side of your waste zone to the bottom of the other. You can then cut almost straight across the bottom, and make one more pass to get it pretty clean.
> 
> For decent quality at a reasonable price I went with the 8 piece imperial Narex chisel set. It s about $105 right now on Amazon. Their 4 piece set would do you just fine and it s half that price.
> 
> - RichTaylor


That 4 piece set looks pretty good for my current needs. That's going to be my next order since I recently got the Japanese saw, a coping saw, marking knife and marking gauge. The chisels I have might be decent if I sharpened them, but I hate not having one smaller than 1/2".


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> You can remove most of the waste with a coping saw or fret saw. The Knew Concepts fret saw is awesome, but really expensive. You can get a decent Olson coping saw for under $15. With it, you can clear out the bulk of the material, and then pare with your chisel up to your marks.
> 
> The difference between a coping saw and a fret saw is that the coping saw connects to the posts on the ends of the blade, and the blade is thicker. A fret saw clamps the blade, and the blade is extremely fine. You can make 90º turns in your cut. With a coping saw you ll need to make several passes, one diagonally from the top of one side of your waste zone to the bottom of the other. You can then cut almost straight across the bottom, and make one more pass to get it pretty clean.
> 
> For decent quality at a reasonable price I went with the 8 piece imperial Narex chisel set. It s about $105 right now on Amazon. Their 4 piece set would do you just fine and it s half that price.
> 
> - RichTaylor
> 
> That 4 piece set looks pretty good for my current needs. That s going to be my next order since I recently got the Japanese saw, a coping saw, marking knife and marking gauge. The chisels I have might be decent if I sharpened them, but I hate not having one smaller than 1/2".
> 
> - TaySC


Since starting making dovetails, I've used a 1/4" chisel the most, especially at the the base of the tails and the narrow portion of the pins. It's also the most difficult for me to sharpen with my Worksharp, since it tends to rotate a bit on the machine's ramp. I've skewed the flat edge of that chisel quite a bit!


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## RichT

> Since starting making dovetails, I ve used a 1/4" chisel the most, especially at the the base of the tails and the narrow portion of the pins. It s also the most difficult for me to sharpen with my Worksharp, since it tends to rotate a bit on the machine s ramp. I ve skewed the flat edge of that chisel quite a bit!
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


You'll struggle to make a clean, straight line with a chisel that narrow. You might do well to settle on a standard pin and tail spacing of 1/2", that way a single strike from a 1/2" chisel will give you a clean line to start paring from. Without a dovetail chisel, you'll need to go down to a smaller size for that, since bench chisels usually have flat sides, but it's the edge that shows, a little roughness inside the joint won't be seen.

On the back side of the pin boards you'll need a smaller chisel as well. Basically, use the largest chisel that fits in the space and you'll get cleaner cuts.


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## TheFridge

Ditto


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## Unknowncraftsman

Your chisel work will go better if you invest in some wood that saws and chops easy.
That pine is horrible to chop clean or pare.
I recommend popler and walnut.Or soft maple and walnut.
If you really want feel like a pro buy some nice Honduras mahogany and make a simple box for you shop.
I think you might find your chisel are plenty sharp when you change your wood.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Hmm. Betraying my ignorance here but I didn't know there was a specialized dovetail chisel. I thought any chisel would do. I can see why people opt for the jigs!
Anyway, would something like this be more appropriate?

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/narex-dovetail-chisels.aspx


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## torus

I got this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GPC74ZQ


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## Loren

Dovetail chisels are only something you'll
need if you're doing really fine pins. I suppose
they are a convenience but I have got by fine 
without them. I do have skew chisels though.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I got this:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GPC74ZQ
> 
> - torus


The Narex chisels have been recommended on this thread before.


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## TheFridge

Yeah they're solid.

Like Loren said. Unless you're doing narrow pin you can make it work.


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## RichT

> I got this:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GPC74ZQ
> 
> - torus
> 
> The Narex chisels have been recommended on this thread before.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


I only mentioned the dovetail chisels because bench chisels have straight sides. Sorry to confuse the issue. You don't need them, although if you did a lot of dovetails, you could pare out a 1/2" tail with a 1/2" chisel.

As far as the link above goes, I'd recommend the imperial sized set. 12mm is really close to 1/2", but not exactly. Unless you work in metric, stick with imperial.


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## ColonelTravis

> Alaska, I got one of the Japanese saws that I had seen mentioned a good bit. Not sure where it rates in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JW19U8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> - TaySC


Got this a few months ago, don't use my L-N dovetail saw any more. Almost feel like a traitor saying that because L-N hasn't let me down with anything ever. Actually, it's not that they let me down, it's for some damn inexplicable reason I do better with the 372. Cannot explain it. It's an amazing saw. Maybe it's just the way I myself am constructed that it works better that way. No clue. All other tools I own are Western style.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I'll probably forgoe the specialized chisels for now. Money is tight. I'd rather buy a thinnish plank of yellow poplar and just practice on that.

I did breakdown and buy a David Barron 1:6 magnetic dovetail guide though. That will be my last bit of woodworking kit for a while.

Here are a couple pics of my most recent effort in pine. I had mostly used a 1/4" chisel, so now I'll swap to a 1/2". Just looking at it, I still have the same issues as before: the pins don't sit down flush with the tails. The two boards still form a 90 degree angle in profile, but something isn't getting cut flush out cleaned up or something.

BTW: I wasn't paying attention, and started to saw into one of the tails. I shot some glue in the kerf to minimize compression of the tail when I fit everything together.


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## TaySC

Glue and sawdust….. LOL

Looking better JB. Are you good at the box/finger joints? Or did you just start with the dovetail joints first?


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Glue and sawdust….. LOL
> 
> Looking better JB. Are you good at the box/finger joints? Or did you just start with the dovetail joints first?
> 
> - TaySC


I actually started trying to make box joints with a homemade jig for my router table. I had mixed results. It would be easier on my table saw, but it won't take a dado stack.

I thought maybe I'd try manual dovetails since the process didn't rely on me buying additional machines (although I do like finger joints and find them attractive).


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## TheFridge

I'll have to take a pic of how I do the baseline. Not much to it.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I ll have to take a pic of how I do the baseline. Not much to it.
> 
> - TheFridge


It seems like it should be pretty straightforward. I think it's mostly a matter of needing practice, but obviously I'm making the same mistakes over and over.


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## TheFridge

Practice makes perfect. If it was easy everyone would do it.

Check a local cabinet shop for scraps. They'll probably give you more 3/4 poplar scraps than you could use in a year.

Chiseling to the line is a valuable skill you can use elsewhere. I have a 2×2x2 cube of ebony I use sometimes to put up against the back of my chisel to keep it 90.

Are you using a pencil? Do you have a marking gauge?


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I was using a mechanical pencil then switched to an X-Acto knife. I purchased a Veritas circular marking gauge a couple weeks back after my cheap pin one left ratty, uneven lines. I love that Veritas gague!

I think my problems come from cutting and chiseling mostly. Getting the tails and pin sides nicely and smoothly cut is trying. And then chiseling out the bottoms and not gouging them is tough. Sometimes even using a coping or bandsaw is tricky because I'll overshoot and cut past my marked line, or I'll cut too far in on the sides of tails leaving them too fat. And fixing those causes me to lop off too much.


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## TheFridge

Don't cut to the line when cutting out waste. Leave about 1/16 or whatever you feel comfortable doing as long as you don't go past. Use your marking gauge for your baseline so your chisel can sit in it. Make sure you clean your corners well as it looks like that's part of the reason your pins and tails won't sit flat.


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## Loren

> I think my problems come from cutting and chiseling mostly. Getting the tails and pin sides nicely and smoothly cut is trying. And then chiseling out the bottoms and not gouging them is tough. Sometimes even using a coping or bandsaw is tricky because I ll overshoot and cut past my marked line, or I ll cut too far in on the sides of tails leaving them too fat. And fixing those causes me to lop off too much.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


Once the geometry at the entry is established,
you can try angling the chisel outward as you 
work towards the center, making a pointed 
shape. Then shave the sides of the shape
down to make a pyramid shape. Then pare
off the pyramid from the center until the entire
area is pared flat.

You can discourage yourself from cutting too
deep with the saw by clamping a piece of
tough wood like oak to the piece at the line.
The additional resistance of the second piece
of wood will get your attention.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I've been watching some videos about dovetail joints, and I came across this one. I'm going to try it tonight. It's very straightforward and he makes the joints like I make coffee in the mornings! It's impressive! I thought I'd share for anybody interested:

"Quick and Easy Dovetails":


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## RichT

> I ve been watching some videos about dovetail joints, and I came across this one. I m going to try it tonight. It s very straightforward and he makes the joints like I make coffee in the mornings! It s impressive! I thought I d share for anybody interested:
> 
> "Quick and Easy Dovetails":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


His chisel tip marking gauge is a nifty hack. I'd have never thought of that. I saw an episode of Rough Cut (S01E02) where Tommy visited a shop and the guy used the flat side of the chisel to mark the dovetail widths. Just rolled it back and forth on the edge of the board. Quick and dirty, but they came out great.


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## TaySC

I saw a similar video the other day and was facinated by how easy they make it look.

I've come to the realization that before I can do box joints or dovetails, I have to first get all the things needed to sharpen chisels and practice that. I tried sharpening one on the grinding wheel yesterday and I just made it worse.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

I received and used my David Barron dovetail guide in a 1:6 angle on some new poplar planks. I also incorporated a few of the techniques from the previous video I linked.

Even excluding the end pins I accidentally cut off (a reminder to mark my waste), these are easily the best looking and most solid fitting dovetails I've made so far!

I'm not trying to overtly endorse the Barron jig, but it works as advertised. I'm also a little reluctant to keep using it because I don't want it to be a permenant crutch. But the results are still impressive to me:


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## TaySC

Looking better JB.

Marking the waste is definitely worthwhile. ... LOL


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## JayT

You are making good progress on the dovetails.



> I m also a little reluctant to keep using it because I don t want it to be a permenant crutch.
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


Speaking from experience, it won't be. Last Christmas I made some dovetailed boxes with angled sides, so the Barron jig couldn't be used and they came out just fine. I still use the jig on 90 degree joints because of speed.

On your earlier attempts, I agree with Fridge that one reason for the gap on the baseline looks like a result of not cleaning out the corners good enough. That's a very common issue. A skew chisel helps with getting into those areas. You don't need to spend a lot of money for one, either. Find a sed 1/4 or 3/8 chisel or two at a yard sale or such and grind the skew. I see old Stanley's all the time for a buck or two. I've also used a knife to get into those corners.

The suggestion of cabinet shops for practice lumber is a good one, too. I raid the dumpster of a cabinet shop (with permission) that is on my way to work every so often to get small pieces of lumber and plywood for jigs, small parts or other purposes.

Edit: I'm pretty sure I've got a couple old 1/4" chisels laying around the shop. PM me your address and I'll send them to you. I'll even grind the skew if you need me to.


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## AlaskaGuy

Every time you post everything looks cleaner/better. Good progress.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Looking better JB.
> 
> Marking the waste is definitely worthwhile. ... LOL
> 
> - TaySC


HaHa! I'm usually good about that, but skipped it this afternoon for some reason. Lesson learned!


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Every time you post everything looks cleaner/better. Good progress.
> 
> - AlaskaGuy


Thanks! I'm starting to see some of the things I need to look out for in my technique and wood that have been brought up here. The YouTube videos help also. I've also discovered that sometimes, you can't go cheap on tools. Especially some hand tools, it seems!


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## Manitario

I hate cutting dovetails. It's the most tedious thing I do in the workshop and my results consistently are less than stellar. However, some of my projects just seem to look better with dovetails, especially half blind dovetails. So, I continue to cut dovetails by hand. I have a simple jig to cut through dovetails, which I'll use on projects occasionally, but I really don't like the uniform, equal width, equally spaced look of router jig cut dovetails. So, until I can afford a Leigh or Omini jig dovetail system, I'll keep cutting them by hand.

The upside is that dovetails really expose all of your handtool weaknessess; getting good results with cutting dovetails forces you to learn how to use and sharpen a chisel properly, use a handsaw, lay out accurately, and start with square, straight stock. This will make all of your woodworking better.

Like everything in woodworking, you'll find an enormous amount of highly opinionated advice on how to learn to cut dovetails. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter how you cut them; for every famous woodworker has a different way of doing them and they all seem to get good results; eg. Sellers, Klausz, Schwartz, David Barron, Becksvoort, Gochnour, Underhill etc. Pick a system and get good at cutting and chiseling to a line and you'll get good results whether you learn tails first/pins first/cut a shoulder on the tailboard/cut the waste out/chisel the waste out/use a fishtail/skew chisel/Japanese saw/Western saw/cut while playing smooth jazz or classic rock.


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## verdesardog

I have a Leigh D40 and complete bit set that I'm not using much any more. It is for sale, send me a PM. Maybe around $400?


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> I have a Leigh D40 and complete bit set that I m not using much any more. It is for sale, send me a PM. Maybe around $400?
> 
> - verdesardog


No thanks, but I appreciate it. I'm determined to do this by hand now!


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Say you just finished cutting the tails on a board. How do you guys and gals accurately line up the soon to be pin board to score it?

Most videos, the user has a woodworking table with a vise that allows one board to be set flush with the table, and the other board is just laid on the table without issue.

I haven't built a woodworking table yet, and just have an old machinest vise.

Any suggestions (aside from building a table, that is)?


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## Loren

I cut the tails first, like you apparently do.

One limitation of doing that is the pin board
is very awkward to mark unless it is held
perpendicular beneath the tail board. If
you cut the pins first the pin board can be
held over the tail board with one hand
and marked with the other.

All you need to mark the pins from the tails
is a right-angle jig of some sort. A
drawer type box will do, perhaps even 
a milk crate.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

Here's another update. Several pics here. I'm really happy with the way they have turned out. I was able to get them together without a mallet, and they are actually difficult to separate despite a few gaps. I also found a really easy fix to my problem of lining up the cut tails to mark my pins: My old B&D Workmate! I just put some folded up #400 grit sandpaper on the tail board to level it a bit and get on with it!










Here's some better pics of the 'showy edge' of the joinery:



























I took people's advice here and got a small set of Narex chisels. They came to me very sharp, and I like the slimmer handles compared to my Buck Bros from Home Depot. I thought I had been working with sharp chisels. I was mistaken! The Narex made chopping and paring much easier, but I still dropped below my score line, and now there's some daylight visible. Despite that, I'm surprised at how locked in the pins and tails are!









Wish I had more time to practice this stuff!


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## TaySC

Looks great JB!

I also just ordered those same chisels that some recommended and they should be here in a few days as I was having a time getting my Kobalt chisels to even sharpen properly.


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## JohnnyBoy1981

> Looks great JB!
> 
> I also just ordered those same chisels that some recommended and they should be here in a few days as I was having a time getting my Kobalt chisels to even sharpen properly.
> 
> - TaySC


Thanks!
I have a single 1/4" Kobalt chisel and the handle on it is huge compared to the Narex. I don't have big bear paws for hands so the smaller handles make the Narex easier to handle. I can feel when the chisel is in the scored line more easily with these.

The only advice I have is that the Narex come with a thick, clear coating on the iron. I soaked it in lacquer thinner, and tried scraping it off with a razor blade. Don't bother.

Someone on this forum said to just start using them and it will wear off almost immediately at the business end. They were right! Even with the coating mine were sharp enough to chop away at these latest dovetails, and the coating came right off.


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## bandit571

Used a few jigs over the years…started seeing them as nothing but a crutch….been hand cutting dovetails AND box joints ever since..

Poplar is very good to practice on. I have also done a lot of pine ones, too.


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