# Too soon for customers?



## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

When is it "too soon" to take on paying customers?

I don't ask for myself. I've been building furniture as a hobby for about 15 years. I occasionally build something for friends and family, and at most ask them to pay for the materials. If I do build a project for money, I prefer to build something I like and then put it up for sale. No commissioned pieces, that's just my preference as a hobbyist.

But I routinely see people asking VERY NEWBIE questions on woodworking forums (which is great by the way), but as I read further into their question I find they are building this project for a paying customer. If I paid someone to build a piece of furniture, and then found out they did not really know how to do it, I might be a little upset.

So my question for you is, when is it too soon for customers? Is it ok to learn your craft on someone else's dime? Please give advice in the spririt of helping new woodworkers avoid the pitfall of jumping into commissioned work before they are ready. It might save them a lot of headache and heartache, not to mention their reputation.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

You are either going to learn on someone else's dime or on your own. If you have money and time to go to a good woodworking school, then great, do it. When you come out, you still won't be ready for customers. You'll have woodworking skills, but no customer/pricing/business skills. If you wait to have kids until you're ready, you'll never have kids.
My entire life I've had coworkers ask me, "How did you get that job?" or "Why did Sam get that job?". The answer has always been the same. I educate myself, I work towards the goal of that position and most important I say "Yes" when asked if I can do something.
My Fathers favorite thing to say was, "Just do it!" and he was right.


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

I'll give my .02
I think even a relatively new woodworker can make some projects for profit, but they need to be beginner projects. a birdhouse? a box?
But if someone wants to commission you to build a piece of furniture, you should own the proper tools for the job and have experience with each skill that project will require. One of the hard things about being a newbie is that you really don't know what you don't know. Practice on your own projects and only take on paying jobs for things you really have experience with. I think this will keep you and the customer both happy.

What do you think?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)




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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

There are perceived liability responsibilities when a consumer receives a product whether it is purchased or gifted.

You can be your own worst enemy if you 'get in over your head' with an ill conceived project/product.

A good example would be making cutting boards from pallet lumber which you have no idea what contaminates may have come in contact with that pallet. Pallet lumber may work well for a furniture piece with a good, cured, film coating and never present a problem.

When strength and safety enter the equation, every man/woman must know their limitations.

Work Safely and have Fun. - Grandpa Len.


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

Loren, that video is absolutely hilarious


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I don't think I'd be too upset if someone was doing something for me and they were in over their head if they recognized the problem in time to keep the quality, cost and time until completed under control. Sometimes things happen, even to someone with much tenure, that can't be avoided. The journey is less important than the outcome in my opinion.


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

^ +1 @ Loren,
That's what we're talking about here.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

To build a few projects and then put them up for sale is one thing ,build to order which requires holding inventories,proper tools,etc,(not to mention lots of experience),,is something totally different.

Most of us can probably sell a lot of stuff we make ,that should be a start for hobby woodworkers but there's a huge gap between a hobby woodworker who sells what he/she builds to break even and a seasoned professional who makes a living out of it,I never let the encouraging words of few close friends and relatives to blur that gap.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

My first built in was a commissioned piece. I had made some laundry cabinets for a lady, she pushed me into doing the built in. In my head I said"I've done mantels, and cabinets, so what the heck why not." I was very upfront about how I felt. The price I gave her was very reflective of my knowledge. Two weeks later she had a very nice built in(unfinished). She wanted to paint it herself. I told her $1750, she handed me an envelope with $2k in it. I tried to give her back the difference, she wasn't having it. I believe if you have the basic skills The sky's the limit. Just be upfront with the customer and go with it. There are many jobs I have done that were 1 off first time evolutions. There is always a level of "did I do that right", and right or wrong are in the eye of the beholder. As to the question of asking on here for help. This is the reason I hate typing. Things don't always come out as you intended. A person may have a direction they are going and start second guessing themselves. So they go to a place they can trust for great advice. Not always do not know what they are doing, just a little gun shy on the "right way to go about it".


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

I have learned on the job. The important thing is to be honest with the customer, and don't expect to make big bucks on a learning project. First off, everything is going to take longer and some things will have to be done over. Secondly, the customer is not going to pay a novice what they would for an expert-part of the pay is the gained experience.

Just be honest with the customer and let them decide if they want to go that route or find someone who is more experienced.


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

Shawn, sounds like that worked out really well! I'm sure you did a great job. It also sounds like you had some experience before hand. Built-ins are not a far leap from cabinets.

I was thinking more about the guy who says "I just assembled my tablesaw last night. Not sure how to put the blade on, but I was just hired to build a set of kitchen cabinets".


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

That video was funny, never watched that show before. If you're learning something new in a build for someone i believe that's fine, but if something goes wrong you don't just say you were learning, I'd figure out how to fix it. Wouldn't want to sell something that has flaws in it, would def fix it or start over, would rather lose a little money on a first time deal as long as it's good and the person likes it, then you could have good word of mouth and the next time you'll know what to do and what not to do on it. Anything that I've made (which isn't much yet), the first time is always practicing and is for myself. Of course even if you are really good at most things mistakes can still happen.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I definitely did jobs where I didn't make as much money
as I was expecting to because I messed something up
and had to do it over.

One time I quoted a bunch of full-sized mahogany doors
based on the price my favorite lumber supplier (with
the lowest prices in town, by a lot)... but guess what?

They never had the material in stock. I was sitting
on my hands hoping for them to get it in and finally
I had to buy it elsewhere at something like 25% more.


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## CoachSchroeder (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm weary of selling things because woodworking is something I do for me- not something I'd like to do for other people necessarily…

But, post a few pictures of a coffee table you slapped together on your social media accounts and presto. People think I can remodel their kitchen. I even got my 1st "can you make this $1,500 pottery barn media console for me? I want it to look exactly like the 1 in this picture"

So, Squaretree, I think some responsibility lies with the consumer too. Just because I made a nice bird feeder doesn't mean I can make quality custom furniture. But is it my job to tell them that or theirs? You wouldn't shop for clothes at Walmart if you were looking for high fashion…


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## Gixxerjoe04 (Jan 31, 2014)

My problem is my fiance sees me making stuff then is like i can make anything and wants me to make something for her or her friend wants something. Much rather make stuff at my own pace and work out all the kinks before making something for someone else, be it a friend or someone i don't know.  Have to tell her not to tell people I'll make them something because i still have a lot to learn and don't want to make something crappy.


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## shawnmasterson (Jan 24, 2013)

squaretree- at that time in life I had the building blocks, and was still deciding where to go. I know the guy you are talking about. My drywall finisher talked me into letting him hang a basement for me. I ordered the DW and I was there when it was delivered. My taper/"hanger" showed up as the delivery guy was leaving. He had a helper with him and quite a few bags of new tools. New knives, screwguns, a square, and a rotozip. He had no clue. I watched from a distance and I had to stop him to school him on what he was doing wrong and why it was wrong. In the end he picked it up fast, and his price was definitely a learners price. Now I use him for all my taping and hanging, and he still cuts me and awesome price.


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## CoachSchroeder (Jan 3, 2014)

@Gixxerjoe04 +1

but replace "fiance" with "wife" and "friends" with "sister in law" and/or "wife's family"


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

There is a huge gap between woodworking as a hobby and being paid by a customer to do woodworking professionally.

It's important to be honest with a customer about your experience as a woodworker. When I first started as a business, I had very little experience other then high school wood shop, so every project was a new learning experience, (but then again, don't we try to learn something new in every project we do?).

I always made it clear that if they didn't like my work when I finished their project, then I would not make them take it or pay for it.

Even though it's important to be honest with your customer, it's just as important to be honest with yourself. Don't be afraid to take on new projects, but also don't be afraid to gracefully back away from a project if it's over your head.

I've taken on many projects over the years that really challenged my skills and spent many hours of "unpaid" labor learning how to do certain things.

My business grew as I grew as a woodworker.

BTW; over the years, I've seen a lot of projects done by hobbyist and wonder why they don't sell some of their work, and I've seen a lot of so called "professionals" and wonder how they have the nerve to charge for their shoddy work!


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Loren…I think I saw that furniture maker at the Woodlands Art Festival this past weekend.


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## ToddThompson (Mar 18, 2014)

I am one of those newbie's that you guys are talking about here. infact, the only experience that I have is 
you tube an this forum. lol however after being apart of a room addition for my daughter an then stripping an refinishing a bedroom suit for my wife I kinda got the bug so I wanted to make my wife something for Christmas so after weeks of videos I jumped on a inlay project an all I hade was some 15 year old yard sell tools that I had never used before they were just laying around the shop an old router, an a scroll saw an a old sander to make a long story short I took my chain saw an cut about 2 each slab off a piece of oak log an then cut a heart out of bass wood on scroll saw an that was inlayed in the slab then I bought a clock kit with a swinging pental to make room for the clock I did different inlay in the heart then cut about a 5 each circle out of pine then drilled a hole in the center for the clock an also put the numbers on the top.the moral to the story is this after working on this thing a couple of hours every day for 34 days it turned out pretty darn good however lol I sprayed some urethane on 2 days before Christmas an all that work turned to junk!!! so devastated I presented to her Christmas morning an promised I would fix it (well) she would not hear of it she loves it the way it is an forbids me to touch it an every night when I go in I have to see this huge mistake lol so no there is no way I would take on a paying job even though since then I have spent about 7500 hundred dollars in table saw, jointers, planner, bandsaw, etc.
love this site an thanks to all


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

Welcome Todd! It sounds like you put together quite a shop full of tools. 
In my opinion, you are doing it the right way. Learn on your own projects.


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## woodchuckerNJ (Dec 4, 2013)

Don't believe everything you read. I'll bet some say they are doing it for a customer, but that customer is themselves. Someone recently had told me that the customer requested it that way, but then began to say that they made it this way because they felt that…. and I went…. what… in other words BS.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I think it's okay to take on projects that push your skills-if you have skills and basic knowledge to build on. But a few times I've seen people ask how to build a table (for a customer) without knowledge of even the basic joinery involved.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Rick M,

Exactly! That's when a woodworker (hobbyist or professional) needs to be honest with themselves. If you don't have even the basic knowledge or skills,then it's not the time to be charging customers.

Loren's video is a good example! Lol


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

@Loren, too true, but my experience comes from auto repair. I've seen "parts changers" just throw parts at the vehicle until it's fixed. I grew up poor enough that if I wanted a car, I had to buy it, maintain it, pay for the insurance, etc. I've always been a stickler for determining the real problem before buying parts that I could barely afford. According to the California Bureau of Automotive Repair, fully half the repairs made on motor vehicles are unnecessary. That's the untrained doing the work, on your dime. I had a problem with a PC about 18 years ago. It made a buzzing noise on start up after I installed a new mother board (Pentium 200, WOW!). It took me awhile to figure out that I had installed the 3.5 diskette drive cable connector one pin off, which pretty much fried it. I would rather be sure that I have isolated the problem than just throw the part at it (which is what one of my fellow coworkers suggested), even though it took me longer to diagnose the problem than the part cost.

BoT, I would recommend that whatever skills are required for a project for sale be sound before bidding, making and selling. To me, it is stealing their money if I claim I can build it but don't have the skill set. If you built something for sale, and it was already done, this point is moot- you've proved your skill.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

Tough question for me because I did pretty much learn on the customers dime. I had worked assembling boxes for a production shop for a couple of years but that was all the experience I had. Never built anything other than a box with a face frame. When I started doing things for people, they were small items like coffee tables, chess boards and the like. I always did what I considered a fair to good job with them. But as I grew as a woodworker, I took on whatever they asked me whether I knew how to do it or not. I figured if I didn't know how to do it I would learn. And did. I always was a natural (I think) woodworking came easy to me. 
I don't think I would have taken on a home theater room or a custom library, but doing jobs that I thought I could handle as I grew is how I got the experience I have today.
So my answer would be if you have the tools and think you can deliver what the client wants then go for it, but know your limitations before diving into something you can't handle.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

@Dark_Lightning, I'll address this because it's important to
understand:

Woodworking is marketing hell because people don't really
need it.

It's not that different from being a jeweler I suppose except
the factor that a jeweler will crash without a financing 
deal with a bank and a woodworker can't get the said
deal. In short, custom woodworking is for upwardly
mobile clients only. There are funny pockets in the
market and so forth but it the end, if you're good and
you want to make a living, it's all about selling to the 
affluent. Car repairs, roof repairs and sewer repairs
are a different class of service.

Boom.

I say this not because I want to offend (I don't) or 
because I want to tell people woodworking is a
tough business (what business is not?), but because
the learning curve is steep and conditions enormously
variable. Figuring out what you can make and
sell profitably is a fencing match with the marketplace.


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

I'd say one more factor to consider is longevity. Case in point, one of the first tables I ever built (for myself) turned out great. I think a customer would have been very happy with it…..when it was new. But because I didn't understand how to properly attach the top to the base, the top developed a split in the first couple years of use. Another early piece I did had a joint fail because it was undersized and not glued properly. But it looked great for a while. These are lessons I learned and then applied to later projects.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I admit to learning as I go. In the beginning I didn't charge very much for it because I didn't feel my skill level warranted fine furniture prices. As my skills have improved and the quality of my products have improved, I feel much more comfortable charging for the products.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

One thing worth mentioning here is the often times a client will see some mass produced item in a catalog, want the same thing custom made to specific dimensions, and expect it to cost about the same as the mass produced item. Don't ever fall into that trap. Custom work can cost double, tripple or more. Sometimes, just the materials can cost more than the catalog item. Custom work is expensive!


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## FellingStudio (Oct 17, 2013)

Considering that a good reputation is very important, it is too soon to take on paying customers if …

- You don't have a good understanding of the basics of the craft. (The most important things here being understanding joinery techniques, understanding how wood moves, and finishing.)
- You don't know how to fix your mistakes.
- You don't at least think about liability issues.

Furthermore, it might be too soon to take customers if …

- You haven't developed your own design aesthetic. (Ie. you don't have a look.)
- You don't have time to devote to perfecting each piece that you make.
- You don't have the first clue about how to come up with an appropriate price.
- You don't have an appetite for risk and/or you don't have a backup or second income.

Now, having said that, I don't think that there is any profession in which there is no on the job learning. Schooling and/or apprenticeship is just the start.


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## squaretree (Feb 5, 2014)

Well said, Jesse.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Ive spent 20+ years learning on the customers dime, and I'll do it again….and again….and again. No choice in the matter really if the company is to grow. 
There are no forums, or schools that offer Bat$*!t crazy stair and railing designs 101.

I can't tell you how many times I've wandered out of our showroom muttering to myself….sweet mother of Christ….I have no clue how I'm gonna pull this one off…..


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

"I can't tell you how many times I've wandered out of our showroom muttering to myself….sweet mother of Christ….I have no clue how I'm gonna pull this one off….."

The whole reason I still love doing custom cabinetry…for the challenge! The harder to figure out the better.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

I have a great and relevant analogy to espouse (I know this is a woodworking forum, not a music forum but please indulge me and try not to puke);

When I was 12 years old, my Dad taught me how to play a C chord, F chord and G chord on the guitar and the song "Red River Valley". At that point, I should have been writing songs, putting a band together, booking gigs and looking for a record deal. Instead, I spent the next 25 years, "perfecting my craft".

The Ramones only played 3 chords (mostly) and changed the world.

I've been a carpenter/woodworker for a living for 15 years. Everyday I have to ask questions, learn something new, figure something out for the first time. The day I know everything is the day I'll quit.


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## wood2woodknot (Dec 30, 2012)

Gixxerjoe04,

Much rather make stuff at my own pace and work out all the kinks before making something for someone else …l have a lot to learn and don't want to make something crappy.
_

Agree whole heartedly.

-ajh


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

I come on here sometimes asking "newbie" questions. But usually, truth be told, I know what the answer is or could figure it out relatively easily.

Maybe it's about knowing where your "comfort zone" is but also accepting that to keep the craft exciting, you must push those limits, to a degree that's safe but also challenging.

After all, we're not brain surgeons here (I'm not anyway). Nobody dies when we screw up. We just do it over till we get it right.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Scott Barringer - I couldn't agree more. Expand your horizons and always be learning - by doing.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I believe that just about every person that ever applied for a job with us implied that they had experience with woodworking. One of the most common woodworking machines is a pencil sharpener. Well, most people have used a pencil sharpener.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

That Portlandia video was hilarious.

That is the kind of project i see, while the creator talks about that "horrible" crapola Ikea stuff, and how their project will last generations so is worth big bucks. Yet you can see the gaps from photos taken from a tree across the street..


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