# Questions on Guitar Finishing



## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I finally broke down and ordered an unfinished ES335-style kit guitar I've been looking at for a while.










There is an abundance of sometimes contradictory information out there, and some questions come to mind. Any thoughts on transtint vs. analine dyes? This will be my first time using either. Since the guitar has plastic binding, I'm wondering if one type of dye is better than the other for not causing discoloration. Here is an idea of the finish I'll be going for:










I plan on spraying lacquer. I have a spray gun, but I'm leaning towards rattle-can just because of the PITA factor of setting up and cleaning the gun for the multiple coats that will be necessary. Any thoughts on that?

And lastly, does anyone have any favorite how-to sites? Like I said, there is a ton of info out there, so I was hoping to draw on my fellow jocks' experience to narrow it down.

Thanks!


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

With the plastic ABS binding you shouldn't have a problem with the dye bothering the plastic. ABS and PVC are essentially non-porous for our purposes so the dye can't penetrate.

If you have the ability to spray, (and are any good at it), you will be much happier with the finish. 
I recommend using Nitro lacquer, it is more true to the original finish of the ES-335. It also has a better finish tone than the other types, although that could just be my personal preference.

On another note, what kind of pickups, tuners, and bridge does your have?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm a far cry from an expert, but when it came time to finish the guitars I've made, I researched and asked the same questions you're asking…. the overwhelming (adamant) choice from the seasoned veterans was nitrocellulose lacquer, though some liked poly. A lacquer rattle can produced good results for me. Good luck, and please follow up with the final result!


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Charlie:
I recently built a guitar with this burst on it, sprayed on. It was a transtint Behlen Sea Blue. I needed to air brush it on to achieve the burst pattern. 
Usually the only part of my guitars that are sprayed anymore is the headstock. That is because of the wooden raised logo which makes it almost impossible to put on a wipe-on coat. Sprayed with lacquer instead, easy and fast. I wipe on Tru-Oil the rest of the guitar, including the backside of the neck, and the fretboard also gets one or two coats then buffed to help fill and harden the rosewood.

FYI, I moved away from sprayed on nitro lacquer almost three years ago, after complaints on wear problems, especially on the area where the right arm comes over and picking area. I don't have that problem anymore.

When I went to spray the transtint which I had put on the headstock, the spray lacquer lifted it right off the wood. Tried both Deft and Valspar. Both failed. Had to start over. Then I put on a wipe on coat of Tru-Oil, and it stayed perfectly as shown in the pics. Ended up doing the whole guitar with Tru-Oil. To get around the raised logo, I had to use Q-tips to apply thin coats of Tru-Oil so I didn't have ugly buildup.

I also think you should think in terms of coloring this guitar without the binding. Although it is plastic, it is somewhat porous, and will take on some of the color. I hope you can remove it and put it on after coloring, before lacquering or coating with Tru-Oil.

Other chemicals and brands may blend well together, but this is my recent experience.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Dallas's answer probably is all you need.

If you get into more ambitious builds you'll certainly
encounter situations where fillers and perhaps dyes
get where you don't want them. I use razor blades
to scrape until I get the crispest lines and cleanest
colors I can manage. When working with ebony 
binding for example the dust from sanding the binding
can get into the spruce top and this I scrape out.
This happens around rosettes too.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks, Guys.

Paul: Great looking guitar!

Dallas: All I know for sure about the hardware is that it supposedly includes Grover tuners. It's an inexpensive kit, so I'm sure the humbucker pickups are cheap. I'm not really expecting to have a Gibson ES-335 when I'm done.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

Pickups can make a huge difference in the sound, and might be worthy of an upgrade. Most stock pickups in a kit are pretty lifeless and make it sound like a million other cheap guitar clones. The right aftermarket pickups can give it life, and a unique and interesting sound. I was amazed at the difference when we ditched my son's China strat pickups.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

*Charlie,* Knotscott is right. Cheap pickups equal cheap sound.
I bought a pair of Alnico '57 re-issue pickups from eBay. I would have liked to use more expensive, but these changed the sound for the better by 1000%
If you have a multimeter, ohm out your pickups. YOu will be looking for 8.6 - 8.9 Kiloohms on the bridge, and 7.7 - 8.9 on the neck.

If the tuners are Grovers, they will say so on the back and be either 14:1 or 18:1 turns per revolution exactly, not 18.005 or 13.995 or anything else. They are very accurate.

It may not be a Gibson, but if the neck is straight and you have it set up right it will be a joy to play and give years of troublefree use.

Whatever finish you use, make sure you waste some practicing for several days on scrap. I can't stress this enough. The thin veneer on top of the monkey wood or bass wood or whatever they got from the supplier that day has a tendency to affect how much the dye and the finish is drawn into the wood.

I so far built 4 solid body guitars and 2 arch top hollow bodies. Most came out well. A couple went into the burn pile.
I am working on one now for my son. It is part of my blogs. It started out as a solid body epi clone. I burned everything but the neck and the headstock. I was surprised those pieces were so well built.
Everything else is either hand built or was excellent quality that I got from eBay cheap.
When I get the whole thing together, I will finish my blog on it and maybe even show burning the original body.
The new body is old mahogany that has been recycled from an old Carnegie library that was built 100 years ago or so.

(Edit), ohm out the pots. make sure they are a smooth transition through the full range and in the range of 500K ohms.


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## cajunpen (Apr 9, 2007)

Wow, all that tech talk about pickups is waaaayyyy above my Pay Grade. Good luck with your project Charlie - wish I could add more to this.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, folks.

Bill, if it doesn't work out, I can always go pay your son a visit at the shop.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Charlie:
If you do decide to upgrade the pickups, GFS, otherwise known as Guitarfetish, sells great pickups, and they have OEM pickups that most people believe really are made by Duncan. The OEM units can be bought for $34 a pair, are a matched set at 10K Ohms for the neck, and 14K Ohms for the bridge. They are four wire plus a ground, and obviously use the Seymour Duncan wiring system. I've used a number of them in my guitars, and they simply rock.
Here's the link: http://www.guitarfetish.com/Chrome-Humbuckers-Matched-Pair-Overwound-BLOWOUT_p_160.html

Also, not that many people know that GFS signed a pickup contract with Armstrong a few years back, so a lot of the GFS pickups are actually Kent Armstrongs.

If you have Grovers, as you look at the back of the tuner it will have a raised GROVER in the upper body, as Dallas indicated. Great tuner for the most part, but they do make a cheaper OEM model that most people don't realize is a bit cheaper and you can't tell the difference. Early on in my builds I used a couple sets of these, and they don't hold tune anywhere as well as the real Grovers. If you do have 18:1 tuners, they are the better ones. The cheaper models only come in 14:1. Actually, have not seen a set in a while, but I know they put them on guitars like Samicks, some Epiphones, etc. 
Overall, things look pretty nice. Where did you score the kit?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Man I dont know squat about building guitars, but I can finish, be glad to help if I can, Post here or send me a PM


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up on the pickups, Paul. I've been watching kits on eBay, and this one looked a little better than most that I see on there. It's a bit of a crap shoot, but what the heck…

Charles: Thanks for the offer of help. You are the finishing man for sure, so I'll keep you in mind when I get started!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

pm if I can help ya Charlie, no issue


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Okay, Guys, here's where I am now. I decided to make my base color coat by mixing TransTint dye with Danish oil. In a small sample batch., I achieved just the color I was originally looking for. However, when I started adding dye to a full pint of oil, I could never get back to that same shade. It was just too light. On a lark, I decided to mix in some black oil-based enamel I happened to have on hand, and ended up with something that I wiped on sort of like a glaze. As I said, the color is not what I originally intended, but I still think it will look good once the high gloss finish goes on.

Now my question: I'm going to spray with Deft rattle-can lacquer. Would it be a good idea to spray a seal coat of clear shellac before I spray the lacquer? I'm just a bit concerned how the lacquer might react with my chemistry-experiment finish. For the record, I did try spraying some lacquer on a sample piece with no ill effects, but I'm thinking the shellac might still be a good precaution. What say you all?

Here is the guitar with the color coat applied:


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

DON'T USE DEFT! It never fully hardens like a "real" nitro lacquer will. I have done a guitar or two in it and have sworn it off forever. Even after curing for a couple months, leaving it on a textured surface would deform it. If you insist on spray canning it, either get a preval sprayer with something like Sherwin-Williams Hi-Bild, or cough up the cash for something like Behlen's, Mohawk, or Reranch nitro in a can. The total cost difference to the project might be upwards of $20, but it will result in a much better finish.

As for sealer, vinyl sanding sealer is good stuff. The Deft sanding sealer will work well for you. Just don't use the Deft lacquer. Please. Just don't.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up, Brian. I never considered there would be a big difference in brands. I don't mind paying more for a product that will give better results. I actually own a sprayer, but I've never taken the time to get real comfortable with it, and I'm a bit intimidated by the thought of the whole thinning and spraying process with lacquer.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Charlie, I French Polish all my instruments and furniture. I used to squirt lacquer pre 2005, but now prefer working with low toxic shellac.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

If you have the ability to spray I would go with a pre-cat lacquer or even a water base, and rub it out . Either will give you a quicker build and a more durable finish, Sherwin Williams, makes a high build pre-cat lacquer 
I am fond of, as well they have a water base product Called Kem Aqua Plus. The issue will be if your store has it or will get it. However any reputable pre cat or water base will be about the same.

I agree with Ripthorn , Deft is a much softer finish, it makes for a gorgeous finish, on items that will not see hard use. 
If I were doing this 
I would get me a quart of a good precat, and spray the thing, you could get 2 possibly 3 coats on in one day, then because lacquers shrink back, I would let it dry over night or even a day or 2 and then do a final coat. If it looks good, your done, if you want more sheen you can rub it to a super high gloss oir whatever. However one of my quick tricks is to use the higher solids quart or gallon lacquer to get a build up and get it sanded back with some 600 to a smooth surface, then using the thinner and quick drying rattle can, I just go over it a time or 2 to restore the sheen and call it done. 
BTW, as to cleaning the gun, I leave lacquer in my guns all day and often over night, (not post cat) , and then just clean the air cap and end of the nozzle with some lacquer thinner before reusing, having a soft bristle brass toothbrush to hit the tip helps as well. Lacquer is one of those finishes that can be dissolved by the thinner pretty easily, so breaking down and do a full clean between each coat is not needed, Water base is a little different, it is not easily dissolved , so cleaning it if its going to be left sit for any period of time is needed. if its just between coats, drape a wet cloth or use a sponge and rubber band to cover the nozzle.

Rattle cans with exception to deft are all about the same, its nitrocellous lacquer, nothing fancy, the issue is they are usually very low solids and it wil take numerous coats to get a good build, sanding sealer can be used, but its basically finish with some sterates in it so it sands easier, Vinyl sealer is much tougher.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

I have used the Emtech EM6000 and it is okay, though when wetsanding, any residue left standing for more than several seconds will begin to eat back into itself. After doing 4 or 5 guitars with it, I decided to call it quits and went to nitro. I don't love nitro, but it's cheap and readily available. I would love to try something that requires fewer coats, but am too cheap/lazy.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks, guys. You've given me plenty to think about.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

tell ya what, you could get a super nice finish on this with some Arm R seal or better yet Some System Three marine spar varnish. Its expensive but does a super job and both are quite durable .


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Charles, are you talking about spraying or wiping? Because at this point I'm considering just sticking with what I know, which is wiping. As this is for my personal use, I'm really not concerned about the amount of time and effort. I just want to get the best-looking gloss finish I can get.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

wiping, it would do great , a little slower, but would make a really nice finish


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## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

If you want it to really be a " WOW " finish, go with some Birchwood Casey Tru Oil gunstock finish. I bet you would fall in love with this stuff.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I hope you guys are still watching this topic. The guitar is coming along pretty well, but now I have a wiring dilemma. There are no instructions, and I've never wired an electric guitar. The pots, three-way switch, and jack are all wired together, and I just need to connect the two pickups. What I can't figure out is which are the tone pots and which are the volume pots, or can it be done either way? If anyone can give me some guidance based on the photo, it would be much appreciated! The gray wire is the neck pickup, and the black wire is the bridge pickup. Each pickup had a red and white wire soldered together, a black and a bare soldered together, and a single yellow wire.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hey Charlie, there are a lot of different ways to hook them up. It also depends on how many wires you have coming from your pickups and who made them.With the S-D's I tie red/white together, black goes to outside terminal on the tone pot, green/bare go to a blob of solder on the back of the pot which is ground.

I also have an old set of Gibson PAF's that had to be wired completely differently.

A lot of it just depends on what sound and action you want from your guitar.

Seymore-Duncan has a number of different ways illustrated, so does Gibson.

Good luck.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks, I've looked up quite a few diagrams, but none seem to have the same color combination of wires I'm dealing with. Guess I'll have to wing it.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Contact whoever sold you the kit and see if they have the wiring diagram.

If not, try different methods using alligator clip jumpers.

It looks like yous are set up to have R/W together, B/W to ground and yellow to the outside left as viewed from the back.

Trying different hook ups won't hurt anything, we are talking about millivolts here. There is no power going to the pickups, it creates electrical signal from the string vibrating across the heads of the pickup.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I found this. It might help you decide which is what.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks! I don't know why I hadn't thought of the alligator clip solution. That should make things pretty simple.
DUH!!! (slaps self on forehead)


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Outstanding!

Looking at your set up, I don't see any capacitors. Did the kit come with any? If not I can send you a pair. Just do some research and figure out what will sound the best for the style you like, and I'll send you a few sets in that range.

Personally, I built a Varitone with six sets of different value caps, that way I can get tones like B.B. King's Lucille all the way up through the western twang of cowboy music, the whiny tones of a lap steel, a Strat or a Gibson SG, all from my SG Epiphone.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Charlie:
The pots with the little green caps are the tone pots. They should have one half of the cap soldered to the center position of the pot, and one half soldered to one terminal on the volume pot.

Leave the red and white wire on the pickups hooked together, since you don't plan on splitting the two coils in the humbuckers. The black will most likely be your ground of the pickup, and the yellow the hot. The black will have to be connected to the grounding circuit that is all around the wiring, (just look for the soldered wires on the back of the pots).

Aw, heck… Here's a simple diagram that will get you home…


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks, Paul. You are exactly correct about the setup. I figured it out last night using test leads, and got everything installed.

I'm actually playing through my Marshall ASD50 acoustic amp. It gives a nice, warm, jazzy tone I like, but between the various controls on the guitar and the amp, I can tweak a pretty wide range of sounds out of it. Dallas, thanks for the offer of the capacitors, but right now I'm happy with what I'm getting. I still need to play with my setup a bit to get the action just the way I want it, but I'm a pretty happy camper so far.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Outstanding, Charlie.

In your setup schedule try tightening and loosening the truss an eighth of a turn either way after each way after each adjustment. 
Check with your tuner all the way up to at least the twelfth fret, (I usually go up as far as I can).

Lifting and lowering each side of each pickup can also make a big difference.

Also watch your stops at the bottom. If the twelfth fret isn't right on with the tuner, lengthen or shorten each tuner, but I'm sure you already know this.

Have fun with that thing and send me some audio recordings!


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## oltexasboy1 (Sep 25, 2013)

One piece of advise, if as you say you have never built a guitar, closely check the fret bars, and if they are not very smooth get a fret file and slick them up before putting it all together. There are a lot of luthier supply stores on the net.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Yup, Yup, *oltexasboy1* is exactly right. rough frets with no radius will fight you all the time.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I read a tip that suggested checking intonation by comparing the 12th fret harmonic to the 12th fret actually held down. Once you get those notes the same by adjusting your scale length with the tune-o-matic bridge, you should be good. I'm pretty close to there right now. Action on my first three strings is still a little high at the nut, so I need to do a little filing, I think.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Okay, I just put up a quick and dirty YouTube to give an idea of how it sounds. On the first song, I just recorded a solo over some music I had recorded earlier. The second part is just playing around with some different sounds.


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