# Sooo, my table saw is apparently electrified now for some reason…



## Scott375 (8 mo ago)

I've been using a Rigid T2412 1 contractor table saw for maybe 12 years and bought it used, so who knows how old it really is. I've never had any problems with it until this evening after a freshly picked cuticle on the back of my finger contacted the cast iron table. If felt like a splinter had bit me there so of course I rubbed it out and performed the same action to see if it would hurt again. Well it did, and after a few repeats I realized I was getting a mild, though still painful, electrical shock.

I did the same finger test on several other bare metal parts with the same result. I know it's electrical because when I unplug the saw I don't get shocked anymore. The saw is NOT running when I get zapped, just plugged in. I tried a different extension cord. No joy. I pulled apart the switch in the front and it looked good - nothing blackened, touching, or otherwise out of place.

I thought I found the issue when I pulled the cover plate off the motor housing where the electrical connections are and found it to be pretty full of fine sawdust. I thought maybe this would somehow allow some juice to leak out if moist enough with ambient humidity. I know, a long shot. That wasn't the problem either.

There's not much else to this saw so far as electrics go so I'm stumped. I have no idea how long this problem has been around and like I said I only noticed it by accident - it's not like I'm continuously being shocked all the time.

Am I missing simple thing to check somewhere? Maybe it's fine to continue using as is?


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Wear rubber soled shoes when operating the saw 

If the electrical box on the motor was packed with sawdust, motor probably is as well. Good time to open it up and clean it out. Otherwise, just trace wires from electrical outlet to motor looking for any frayed, loose or otherwise compromised wires or connectors.

Cheers,
Brad


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Your problem is a good example of a reason to use ground fault receptacles in the shop. If you are in a basement, a garage, our outside it is required. As stated, you will need to do a complete exam, piece by piece. Clean all dust from the motor, switch box, and the saw. The contact point may be difficult to spot. Do you have a volt / ohm meter? I doesn't need to be an expensive meter, but may help you track the problem.


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## xedos (Apr 25, 2020)

You are acting like a ground rod, so you should trace the whole path for a loose or nonexistent ground connection. Wiring diagram is prob. on the Depot's and/or Ridgid's website

Start at the receptacle and test it first. If ok , start looking at the saw itself. Is the box metal ? Is it grounded ? Is it bonded to the saw's frame too ?

Same procedure w/ motor. All metal parts need to be connected together by ground and that needs to lead back to your panel via the receptacle.

handy :
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/206212329


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

I think you have two problems.
1. Saw is not properly grounded. If it was you would not feel a shock. You should install a GFI outlets or circuit breakers which would automatically trip if a fault like this occurs. Could save your life.
2. Saw has a partial short which could be caused by saw dust, insulation breakdown in motor windings, etc.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Even if the saw is properly grounded, there may not be enough current flow to trip the breaker. That is the reason for a GFI. Some breakers were not designed to trip on a ground or short circuit, only on over current. GE residential breakers were called welders because you could hold the circuit conductor to a ground, and not trip the breaker, only weld with it.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I would not use GFCI breakers on a machine, definitely not arc fault breakers.

Check the switch wiring and motor for a loose ground, check the plug and receptacle.

Basically, follow what xedos said, but I would start with the machine.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

*Robert:* Bad advice! GFCI/arc fault is normally REQUIRED wherever there is a conc floor (garage/basement/patio) for *exactly* this reason. Ask ibewjon if you don't believe me.

Run your fingers over every inch of wire. Something is rubbing and just about wearing thru. You'll feel an indented area where the insulation has been trapped/pinched/pressed/chafed.

You saw frame isn't grounded. Have you checked the ground connection on the outlet? Use an ohm meter and check for ground continuity with the BREAKER OFF but the saw plugged in.

Ground your car jumper cables to a metal cold water pipe and clamp onto the saw frame and see what melts. Leave it in place and turn the saw on and see if THAT trips the breaker.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 Check and trace your wiring.

I had a similar problem on TS2424. Don't remember all details, other than there are two problems.
Was a PITA to trace down. Primary issue was pinched and shorting wires inside a cheap plastic wire grommet for sheet metal pass through. GFCI would not trip as the black and white wires were reversed somewhere.

Best Luck.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Yeah, first step is to check the ground prong on the cord. People that don't know any better will snap them off if faced with a non grounded outlet. Check both motor wire compartment and its connection up to and including the switch. You may need to invest in a meter. If that is too much to invest buy a pigtail and give the neutral side a known ground or neutral and touch the hot (black) to the saw top. When it lights up, the brighter it is the more it will get your attention. More than likely it is in the motor or switch but get it corrected.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Robert, I don't know your experience level here, but "DO NO USE A GFI is TERRIBLE and DANGEROUS advice." As I stated above, GFI protection is REQUIRED by the NEC in this case, be it in a basement or a garage. That $10 item can save your life. There is NO reason to not use a ground fault of some type, be it breaker, receptacle, or the type that plugs into a cord.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I used GFI in my shop even with a wood floor. You never know when a drop cord will extend out the door of my small shop. Arc fault breakers I have no use for. Code required them when I updated the kitchen and the microwave tripped it all the time so it went bye bye. Local college had convenience outlets in the hall but were connected to dorm room circuits. The crew vacuuming the halls wood trip them one bye one, probably by just moving the cord while the switch still on. The kids were pissed coming back after a break to find the mini fridge contents getting ripe.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Arc fault serve a completely different function than GFI. Poor design put hall receptacle on sleeping area breaker. Arc fault is to prevent fires when someone runs a cord under a rug, which can be expected in a dorm room. First time in code, arc faults were required in bedrooms and any circuit passing through a bedroom.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Question one: NO do not use until it is fixed. 
Suggestion: GFI yes, but Arc Fault? Arc from the inertia switch may trip it.

On to the fault: As you say you get shocked when the saw is off, ( something several here failed to read) be sure the plug and outlet is correctly polarized. Look at the cord and the switch. When off, no power should get past the switch, so any issue in the motor should not show up if you are correctly polarized. Even if your safety ground is open. I don't remember if the cord went to the motor junction box and then back up through the switch, or to the switch first. If I remember, they could be wired 110 or 220 so the switch must be a double pole.

As a side note, that is one of the old Emerson saws that does not have a riving knife. I had one. Way too dangerous. Maybe now is an excuse to buy a much safer saw. One with a riving knife. My Ridgid almost got me several times and I HAD THE BLADE GUARD INSTALLED. At the very minimum, be sure you use a splitter right behind the blade on the plate. The splitter from the back is too far back and too high off the table. Otherwise, it was a great saw. Newer versions I see complaints about the fence. Mine was rock solid. ( I run a 3 HP Harvey now)


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## Scott375 (8 mo ago)

Thanks for all the quick replies and great information guys, much appreciated. Given your combined input, I offer the following update.

I have one of those plugin outlet testers with the three lights and I test good for ground with that. As an added measure I also tested with my multi meter and got 119V across hot and neutral and also 119 across hot and ground. The outlet I'm on is GFCI protected. My grounding prong on the saw power cord is solid and has good continuity with the ground in the switch box. I thought about just continuing to wear my crocs and ignore the problem but I tend to lean more towards self-preservation which means fixing the problem or <gulp> buying a new saw.

With the multi meter in continuity test mode I confirmed that both grounding lugs in the switch box had continuity with the frame. I also confirmed the ground in the motor housing had continuity with the frame and that neither hot nor neutral in the motor housing had continuity with the frame. If there was a broken wire somewhere in the motor that was contacting the casing wouldn't I have had continuity between the motor housing hot lead and the frame?

I'm also thinking this may be an issue with neutral touching ground somewhere because if it was the hot leg the GFCI should trip and the saw wouldn't power up. Right?

I ran my fingers around the wires I had access to within the switchbox and motor housing and none had any indication of being worn, much less to the point of exposing metal. The only place I can't get to is inside the motor itself. Is it ok or advisable to take out those long bolts that go end to end in order to expose whatever is in there to my air hose and prying eyes? Even if I found something in there would it be anything I could replace/fix?

In case some didn't notice this from my original post, I'm getting the jolt when the saw is plugged in but NOT running. I did another test this evening where I touched the back of my finger to the table while in crocs and I got no shock. I take off a croc and touch my bare foot to the floor and then I get the 120v tingle.

I also took apart the switch and while there was a small amount of fine dust stuck to the old lub inside the contacts weren't melted or seriously worn so far as I could tell. After putting the switch back together the saw works but also still has the hot table when the saw isn't running.

Any more thoughts?


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## Phil32 (Aug 31, 2018)

In your original post you mentioned plugging the power cord into *an extension cord* (which was presumably plugged into the outlet. You should also verify that the extension cord has a ground wire properly connected and is rated for the electrical load of the saw.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Any more thoughts? - Scott375


 Remove the plastic grommet or wire strain relief where the wire passes through sheet metal. On my TS2424; the wires were pinched and shorted INSIDE the crimped plastic. Didn't find the problem until I gave up troubleshooting and decided to completely rewire the TS. Found the short when I removed the strain relief. The fix as easy. Cut off a few inches of pinched cord, and re-wired the connections to switch. 








Update, here is a better picture. Item #9 on parts list pinched wires:









The majority of the TS2424 wiring is isolated from metal as shipped to customer. You ground the frame by attaching the switch housing, and bolting the motor in place.

YMMV


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## BlasterStumps (Mar 13, 2017)

You checked the outlet but could it be possible someone reversed polarity on the cord either at the plug or where it connects to the switch? Does that model saw have a plastic housing?


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I had a 14 inch powermatic bandsaw that I used to get a little static type shock. It would come and go I did check everything and figured it was from the dust collector hose.
Good Luck finding yours.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

> In case some didn't notice this from my original post, I'm getting the jolt when the saw is plugged in but NOT running. I did another test this evening where I touched the back of my finger to the table while in crocs and I got no shock. *I take off a croc and touch my bare foot to the floor and then I get the 120v tingle.*
> 
> - Scott375


I suggest you use your multimeter and not your body as the voltage tester.

Does this happen when it is running too? If not, that may help isolate where the problem is.

Also, if you have not pushed the test button on your GFCI, now would be a good time. I had one go bad once. It seems to me that if it was working correctly, it should have tripped. I have also had one trip because water got into an outdoor receptacle with nothing else plugged into that circuit. On second thought, even if it tests okay. I would replace it. It should trip every time you get a tingle. They are supposed to trip with as little as 5 mA leakage. I don't know if it is true but I read that the useful life of a GFCI is about 10 years?


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## JohnDon (Mar 14, 2015)

+1 on using your multimeter, not your body- i.e. measure the voltage between saw and floor. Also, could a bad motor capacitor be the cause?


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Did you try the jumper cables to short it out?


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## sunnybob (Oct 12, 2021)

Cable restraining clamps (known mostly as gland nuts, can cause this problem by being done up too tight. This crushes the wires so badly that voltage leaks through the insulation even when it isnt broken. There are no obvious signs from the outside.

You dont need to disconnect any wires (except the mains from the wall), just find each security nut, undo it, and slide the cable along an inch or two. If you find a crushed area that is blackened, theres youre problem. You would have to replace that length of cable, dont think by releasing the pressure the cable is now good.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

If this has suddenly occurred, owned it 12 years, just now posting about it? Either something changed the wiring. Mouse chewed a wire, or something so it still had electric, but it was actin up. Then I'm thinking about what does the maker put on them all, to give some clearance? Look at the legs, and see if it still has good rubber feets. They degrade, if the tools gets moved they get worn, but on older stuff it is a thing. Wet floor, concrete, and dirt are both kinda wet, no rubber footsie, and ya might get that tingling.

Something happened to make it happen. Solve that, and the fix is in.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

When testing continuity between ground, hot and neutral with the saw unplugged make sure the switch is in the on position. I am really surprised that if the device has a good ground bond it is not tripping the breaker.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Glad to hear you are on a GFI. And yes, they do go bad. Many of the new GFI receptacles self test, and lock off if bad. You definitely have a tiny leak. If the problem is gone when the switch is on, I would replace the switch.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The switch is usually what I test first with electrical issues. Since this happens with the switch off, it has to be either the switch/switch housing or a point where the cord is connected to the saw prior to the switch. If there are any points prior to the switch housing where the cord is attached to the saw, remove those before these tests and inspect the wire at that location for damage. Then check that there is no continuity (unplugged of course) between in and out terminals when off. If no when in off position, then test between all the terminals on both sides of the switch and the body of the saw both switched on and off. If yes, separate the switch or switch housing from the saw so that the only the wires are connecting the switch to the saw and retest continuity between terminals and body.

One more thought…does the saw have a thermal breaker of some kind? Look at that carefully to make sure that it looks okay, especially if it tripped lately. I do not remember if they are usually before or after the switch but if it is before, that could be another source of leakage.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

I would remove the switch from the box. Tape up any exposed contacts, then plug in saw and see if the problem remains when the switch is out of the box and turned off.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

> *Robert:* Bad advice! GFCI/arc fault is normally REQUIRED wherever there is a conc floor (garage/basement/patio) for *exactly* this reason. Ask ibewjon if you don t believe me.
> 
> Run your fingers over every inch of wire. Something is rubbing and just about wearing thru. You ll feel an indented area where the insulation has been trapped/pinched/pressed/chafed.
> 
> ...


Well, try running your miter or any saw on an arc fault circuit and let me know how that works for you, mate.

GFCI is used in wet environments kitchens, bathrooms or outdoor outlets. You don't see them throughout a house, so why would you use them in a shop?

All this poster indicates is caused by improper grounding,


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

GFCI IS REQUIRED IN UNFINISHED BASEMENTS, GARAGES, WORKSHOPS, AND MANY OTHER PLACES. Look at the NEC, and learn the requirements before blasting off with bad, possibly fatal advice. You still didn't post your electrical training and experience, so I will list mine for you. For myself, it is over 44 years in electrical construction, and a NEC update class every three years when the new code comes out. Again, GFCI is required in this case, and it is installed as noted by op. And another note, when a house is wired with old romex and no ground, a receptacle is replaced with a GFCI and marked ' no equipment grounding conductor'.. throughout the entire house, not just the kitchen and bathroom.. Also, large commercial and industrial services have ground fault protection at the incoming service, also not just in wet areas.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> ... why would you use them (GFCI) in a shop? - Robert


Hmm…..
ibewjon beat me to it…

*GFCI has been an NEC code requirement in any basement, garage, or workshop, 
for any 125v 15/20A outlet; since 2008.
PLUS;
NEC code for 2020 requires GFCI on ALL 125v/240v outlets in any dwelling unit.*

As reference, here is an industry magazine article detailing the 2020 change

So if you attempt to add a circuit or sub-panel in your home shop, and local AHJ issuing building permits follows NEC 2020 code; you be required to have GFCI on ALL your new circuits.

BTW - It takes most building authorities 1-3 years to review, allow public comments, and begin adapting; new NEC codes. Hence, the ramifications of the NEC 2020 GFCI change to all 240v outlets is just now filtering into home work shops. My insider sources tell me; all motor driven appliance industries are actively testing and making changes to accommodate the 240v GCFI requirement. Inverter driven appliances have most issues and are reported as causing frequent false trips due reflected inverter noise. This area is something to watch if you like or refurbish old tools. :-(0)

PS - ARC fault is different protection type than GFCI. 
As of NEC 2017 Section 210.12, ARC Fault protection is (only) required in: 
Kitchens, Family Rooms, Dining Rooms, Living Rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Bedrooms, Sun Rooms, Recreation Rooms, Closets, Hallways, Laundry Areas, or Similar Rooms or Areas.

YMMV as your local codes may be different….


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

lol, fun stuff, i still wouldn't put a gfi on my shop, there is one in the head and one on the outside outlets at ground level, and well, an arc fault breaker is a menace, if the load is anywhere near the breakers max, it pops, we deal with this constantly in the commercial kitchens, and bars, eateries ,ect. typically you can't have more than one pc of bar equipment or kitchen equipment on more than one 15 or 20 amp arc fault, they pop constantly, its the start ups on the machines that create the issue, at least that was how explained to me by electrical engineer on a couple jobs.

again, my whole shop is on 20 amp outlets , no gfis other than noted , and gonna stay that way
Rj inaz


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> again, my whole shop is on 20 amp outlets , no gfis other than noted , and gonna stay that way
> - Knockonit


LOL back at you.. 
Do not need GFCI outlets unless your building meets the definition of occupied dwelling:
quote from NEC 2020 - (but your AHJ may be different)

a dwelling unit is a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking and sanitation. 
Your home is a dwelling unit as well as Hotels, Hospitals, Dormitories, Barracks, Assisted Living Facilities and Apartment Buildings.

The 'sleeping and cooking' details are most common detail to define a dwelling. If you don't have a sleeping area and/or kitchen area in your detached shop; likely do not need GFCI outlets. 
But will need GFCI in a detached shop if used in a commercial business with employee's due other rules.

Many AHJ consider a building with bath and/or shower in a bathroom, or a washer/dryer laundry hookup; a 'potential' occupied dwelling. Which is why the two detached home shops I built, had only two sinks and toilet on the drawings. 

The definition of occupied dwelling is significant detail in discussion of property taxes as well.

Cheers!


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

Sunny had a good thought. Problem has to be BEFORE the switch.

FWIW, a voltmeter using less than a volt will not show up higher voltage leakage which seems to be the OP's problem. We used to test with 500 volts.

A GFI measures the difference between the current hot and neutral, or current on the ground leg. Small leakage may be felt, but not enough to trip a GFI. And as noted, GFI outlets go bad. I had several fail which is why I replaced my breakers with GFI breakers. More reliable.

BTW Captain, what did I do to tick you off?


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Lightning bolts like to eat GFCI outlets too. Also note if you place the GFCI in the first outlet fed by the breaker the remainder that follow are protected too.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

So….IS the Tablesaw fixed, yet?

used to have a different sort of "Extension cord"....on the job sites….when we ran a generator (Honda) we'd either plug this item in at the GEN.'s 120 outlets….or, out on the end of the 50' extension cords to the saws and drills.

Item was about 2' long…male plug and a 3 way female plug…with a GFCI in-between.

BTW: 90% of the jobs I worked at, I was doing the Concrete Form work. From the digging of the footers up. Rebar Crew, setting forms, stripping forms, and "placing " the concrete…..

We'd also install the "Mouse Holes" for the Plumbers and Electricians to run their stuff through the concrete walls…Simply duct tape both ends of a PVC pipe of the required diameter….We'd also add a chunk of wood inside the pipe….so we could attach the Mouse Holes to the inside of the forms….can time to strip the forms off, a couple screws to free the form from the hole. You'd still see the duct tape in the wall…..IF we had the time, we'd remove the tape. Usually just left it there.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

BTW, I have read that simple passive inline surge protectors can sometimes prevent tools like miter saws from tripping an AFCI breaker. Also newer breakers work better and are less prone to nuisance tripping so if you get a lot of trips, upgrading to a new breaker might at least reduce the issue.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> Lightning bolts like to eat GFCI outlets too. Also note if you place the GFCI in the first outlet fed by the breaker the remainder that follow are protected too.
> 
> - controlfreak


A whole house suppressor is always a good idea. Kind of surprised they are not code.
I had not thought about a line filter to mask an arc fault breaker. But then, it would probably mask an actual fault too. I have heard they are better than they used to be, but I don't have any.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Whole house surge protection is now required by the NEC. Also now required is to have a main disconnect outside, either in the meter socket, or in a separate enclosure. This is for emergency shut off in case of fire or other emergency.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Whole house surge protection is now required by the NEC. Also now required is to have a main disconnect outside, either in the meter socket, or in a separate enclosure. This is for emergency shut off in case of fire or other emergency.
> 
> - ibewjon


The old emergency shutoff was the fire dept. pulling the meter.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Nowadays with solar installs being more common pulling the meter DOESN'T mean there isn't still power. Hell, pulling the meter makes the gennie kick on!


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

It has gotten much more complicated.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Solar inverters are NEC required to have protection from "islanding". Basically if the grid is not detected, they shut off.

Now for generators, that could be a real poser for the FD when they yank the meter and all the lights remain on 8^)


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Doesn't automatic solar shutdown on loss of grid defeat the purpose of HAVING solar? To keep you running when all else goes out?

*ibewjon* What happens to "power wall" systems in a house fire? Can you even put one out once they start cooking off? I've heard reports of Tesla car batteries launching D cell sized flaming batteries with no way to stop it other than waiting for it to burn itself out.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Yes, kinda ironic.

Actually that is for the grid tie systems where there is no battery storage.

You really need batteries as a buffer if you plan on being "off grid". Of course batteries and their maintenance/cost really put a damper on any ideas of saving money.

The transfer switch requirements are a bit more complex with battery systems since they can send excess power back to the grid when it is "hot", but they have to isolate when there is no utility power. Could really upset a poleman trying to restore power if everyone was backfeeding.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Soooo….does all of this info help the OP fix his tablesaw tingles…..or, are we too busy splitting hairs, again…hmmmm..

Problem….when the house one lives in, is sometimes older than the "CODEBOOK".....(Mine is 125 yrs old, btw..) not much help, is it..to sit there and quote from the latest Codes…


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

Agreed Bandit, just us ninnies chatting at the table until the OP returns with his latest test results. We are a weak and ill-mannered bunch 8^)

You have knob&tube wiring?


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Bandit, we have to entertain ourselves until the newbie OP decides to check in again to give us an update. Either that or our crotchety old banter scared him off.


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> Whole house surge protection is now required by the NEC. Also now required is to have a main disconnect outside, either in the meter socket, or in a separate enclosure. This is for emergency shut off in case of fire or other emergency.
> 
> - ibewjon


Super. My last read of the full code was several issues ago. I only looked at the few involving my shop sub-panel a couple years ago. Only real change was needing two ground rods.

My last house was circa '62. This one circa 92. Sure, grandfathered, but I think reading the code and seeing what was updated and why is worthwhile. Some upgrades are easy and cheap. Some not. I was able to bring both houses within one or two small issues to current code. I might note, neither house should have passed inspection for the year it was built!

Hopefully Scott375 finds his fault, but I stillhink he should use this as an excuse to get a safer saw. One with a riving knife.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

A Riving Knife is NOT a requirement for a safer saw….when, unless you are only doing rips on that saw, it is basically USELESS for most of the rest of the cuts being done….where the blade does NOT rise above the board….where dado is being cut….where a groove is being made…cross-cuts? Not really needed..

Op's saw is quite good enough, once the voltage leak is corrected…no "need to do an IMMEDIATE upgrade!"....









Milling tenons, as my saw can not use a dado set…fence is used as a stop block…









YMMV…of course….


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

For the fire department to pull a meter, they now need arc flash suit, hot gloves, and hood. The solar panels should have an outdoor disconnect before entering the house. I am still going with a bad switch that is making a new contact point when turned off.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> For the fire department to pull a meter, they now need arc flash suit, hot gloves, and hood. The solar panels should have an outdoor disconnect before entering the house.
> 
> - ibewjon


Jesh, I would pull a meter without a thought. To put all that on it's a wonder they could save the chimney.

I have an over 100 year old house. It was rewired to get the knob & tube out but that was back when all romex was white. Didn't put near enough outlets in. Moved the kitchen back then and moved it again a couple of years ago. So some parts are more code than others. While on code (and waiting for OP to give an update) I put a subpanel on my shop and grounded it. I thought I saw a youtube saying that a sub panel should not be grounded. Sounds like we have some knowledgeable people here. At least if it is not supposed to be grounded, ungrounding is easy. It does have a ground wire coming from the meter base.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

Subpanels should be grounded but the neutral and ground in the subpanel should not be *bonded *like they are in the main panel. I just had a friend who is a retired electrician help me put a new subpanel in my shop last week…

... So now I am an expert 

EDIT: I just read your question again and am a little confused…is the "subpanel" fed from the main panel or from a meter?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Correct, neutral and earth ground do not re bond in a sub panel.. you need a properly sized ground from the main panel AND a ground rod in second building bonded to the panel enclosure. No ground rod needed if in same building.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

For further info, a service is only GROUNDED ONCE. But two ground rods are required to avoid testing the ground rod to earth connection. The additional rod is cheaper than the test. All further "grounding" is actually BONDING of non current carrying objects to the existing ground to eliminate potential voltage between different objects.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Mark:. We recently had a fire in a town 20 miles away in a wharehose filled with lithium batteries. After having part of town evacuated for a week, the fire was smothered with dry portland cement from a redi mix plant. None of the foam or other solutions worked. The owner was storing the batteries in an old wharehose with a leaky roof. See:. Morris Illinois battery fire


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Chemical Hazmat Placard reads 4/4/4/No W


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah, water and lithium is not a good mix. Or sodium or magnesium for that matter. So the guy with the batteries didn't understand that part. Small detail


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Is the saw problem corrected?


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## StevoWevo (Jul 21, 2021)

Been a while since I've been on here. I would be looking at any wire where it passes through a strain relief as already mentioned. A little vibration and a little dry rot on the the insulation and there ya go. Don't over look the capacitor covers. They are probably due for a little blast of compressed air cleaning anyway. Good luck, stay safe


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

> For further info, a service is only GROUNDED ONCE. But two ground rods are required to avoid testing the ground rod to earth connection. The additional rod is cheaper than the test. All further "grounding" is actually BONDING of non current carrying objects to the existing ground to eliminate potential voltage between different objects.
> 
> - ibewjon


OK. What the inspector looked for, so whatever the reasoning, 2 were required.

Riving knife: 
a 90% improvement IMHO. No, it is not a SawStop replacement. Both my close calls were ripping with OEM splitter and guard in place. If I were to pick a next most important, I would put on a locking type nut and back EMF braking to reduce the spin down time. Many accidents are from impatience.

Kick backs are very uncommon for non-through cuts. Possible of course. Not clamping small pieces a most common reason, but that is miss-use, not design.



> A Riving Knife is NOT a requirement for a safer saw….when, unless you are only doing rips on that saw, it is basically USELESS for most of the rest of the cuts being done….where the blade does NOT rise above the board….where dado is being cut….where a groove is being made…cross-cuts? Not really needed..
> 
> Op s saw is quite good enough, once the voltage leak is corrected…no "need to do an IMMEDIATE upgrade!"....
> 
> ...


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Subpanels should be grounded but the neutral and ground in the subpanel should not be *bonded *like they are in the main panel. I just had a friend who is a retired electrician help me put a new subpanel in my shop last week…
> 
> ... So now I am an expert
> 
> ...


Need look and see if I bonded the neutral and ground in sub panel but yeah that was it. I moved the meter base to get it out of the way of a future screen porch. So now the new meter has some breakers to feed the subpanel and other add on projects like future garage while also going to the main breaker panel for the house. Two ground rods were used.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

So, way off the saw problem, but if your new meter socket has breakers, that is where neutral is bonded to ground. So now you need a separate grounding conductor to each panel, as well as the neutral conductor, and no bonding screw in either panel, only in the meter socket / panel combination.


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## Scott375 (8 mo ago)

Wow, this thread sure took some twists and turns in the last week or so. You guys are great with all the feedback and I'm grateful for the time spent so far in helping me think through my electrified ground problem.

The problem (which is that I get the 120V tickle when I touch a wet finger cut to my saw's table top) still exists. Sorry for not posting an update in so long - I was waiting for a new switch.

Here's where I'm at now:

- The saw has a new switch.
- The motor has been completely disconnected and is not a part of this problem. I know this because with the motor disconnected the problem still exists.
- I tried plugging the saw into three different circuits in my house - two with GCFI and one without. With each outlet, the problem exists.
- I tried a couple of different extension cords. Problem still exists.
- I terminated a 12GA extension cord I had and use it to replace the cord that was on the saw. The problem still exists.
- I don't find any faults in any tested outlets in the home when using one of those tree light plug-in testers.
- No other electrical issues are known to exist in the house.

*What I think I'm looking at is somehow the ground in my house is getting electrified. I really hope there's another possibility but I can't think of one. Can any of you? Maybe an open neutral somewhere important?*

Is there a multimeter test I can do to determine whether my house has an electrified ground? I got lucky with discovering the table saw problem with a relatively low intensity buzz to the back of a finger but I'm not willing to go poking fingers everywhere.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

If the ground is hot, when you test the voltage between neutral and ground it seems like you might see a voltage. I do not think you should ever see a voltage between neutral and ground (unless there is a problem). BTW, did you ever measure the voltage from the body of the saw with your multi-meter to see what kind of voltage you are actually seeing? I assume that you tested the GFCI?

One other thought…was this saw ever converted from 220v to 120v? I am wondering if the ground and neutral got reversed when they switched it over? I think that could have the affect of potentially electrifying the body of the saw. I guess it could have happened when just replacing the cord too. I would also check 220v outlets and make sure that they didn't hook up a neutral instead of ground. For example if someone converted a 4 prong 220v outlet to a 3 prong outlet, they could have used the neutral wire instead of the ground wire.

Perhaps if you post a picture of how the wires from the cord are attached to the switch someone will spot something.

One more aside…I noticed that the GFCI I got from Lowes a couple of weeks ago actually has a warning light that indicates when the end of its useful life has been reached (I actually read the instructions to figure out why it has 2 LEDs).


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You could list your general location. Maybe someone is close enough to take another look at your saw. New GFCI receptacles self test and lock out upon failure. Open the ground where it leaves the saw. Test for voltage to the house ground.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Here s where I m at now: - Scott375


Hmm, Don't see something on list I expected?

Did you remove the strain relief's (red circle below) and cut out the wire inside the crimp area? 









The defect I found was created by very thin insulation on the wires inside the orange outer insulator. Over time the plastic cold flows due excess pressure, and results in leakage. The failure is HIDING, and will only be found with destructive analysis, by cutting open the insulation in the crimp area.

Fix is simple: cut 6-8inches of wire off each lead feeding the switch panel to remove the crimped area, strip wire and crimp on new wire ends. Reconnect the switch and grounds.

YMMV


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

This reminds me of a time that a friend had a water heater in the basement next to the beer fridge. It was dark and he could see an arc in the skin of the water heater. If you put your ear to it (the heater) you could hear it. I am a master with a meter but as hard as we tried we could not isolate the breaker that was causing it. He had family that were in the electrical business. They found a flood light on a separate panel on the second floor was shorting to aluminum siding that must have been touching a plumbing pipe somewhere else. My point is it can get complicated, may be time for a "good" electrician.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Or when a house had electrified aluminum siding and the cable tv coax was melting. The siding installer had sided over the entrance cable for the service. The nail had hit a hot, but slipped between the loose braid shield wire used for neutral. The only ground the power could find was through the shield player of the coax.


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## Scott375 (8 mo ago)

Lazyman - There's effectively no voltage between ground and neutral, which I thought was good until I realized that it's probably because they're at the same potential. And I say that because then I measure voltage between the ground wire on my extension cord and the drop of spit I put on my garage floor to enhance conductivity, I get 2V. I get the same 2V when I measure between neutral and spit on floor. Interestingly, when I measure between ground and my saw frame I get 4V, which doesn't make much sense because the saw is mounted on plastic feet and shouldn't have any conductivity with the floor at all.

Ibewjon - I'm in North Wilkesboro, NC and am open to someone checking things out if they have the time.

CaptainKlutz - Sorry, forgot to mention that I (a week or so ago) took your previous advice about the strain nuts potentially causing the problem and removed them in order to strip back the sheathing to check things out. The wires are fine and show no evidence of damage. To further eliminate the old cords I completely removed them from the environment by making my own power cord that goes only to the switch (not the motor). The motor wires are tied off and hanging in the air.

Controlfreak - Is there any test you know of with a multi meter to determine how much voltage is getting into my ground wire? I of course can't measure between hot and ground because that'll always give 120V. Maybe between neutral and ground like Lazyman suggests? If the problem is a hot wire that has somehow made a connection to a ground wire what would a "good" electrician do that I can't? Not being snarky here - I'm honestly curious what options are available that don't involve checking every one of the thousands of drywall screws I've put in this house in the last six years.

I have a 40+ year old water heater so maybe I'll disconnect that beast to eliminate it from the pool of potential issues. There are a few old outlets here and there but for the most part I've replaced all switches and outlets in this place.

Thoughts anyone or am I pretty much just left with trying to find where in this place I have a hot touching a ground OR neutral?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

The water heater is a good place to check . And being able to read voltage to the floor shows that concrete is indeed a grounded surface and the reason for GFI receptacles in a garage or shop. NC is to far for me, you should have been asking this three years ago when I was there! If you were a reasonable distance from me I would be glad to come over and help. Unplug the saw, check voltage from the house ground to the wet spot on the garage floor. If there is voltage, the house may be the problem, not the saw.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

hire an electrician or tech and have them resolve, unless this is a mission of sorts. lol. 
somethings just can't be resolved without skils, economically or timely
rj in az


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

xedos said:


> You are acting like a ground rod, so you should trace the whole path for a loose or nonexistent ground connection. Wiring diagram is prob. on the Depot's and/or Ridgid's website
> 
> Start at the receptacle and test it first. If ok , start looking at the saw itself. Is the box metal ? Is it grounded ? Is it bonded to the saw's frame too ?
> 
> ...




Agree that the receptacle tester is a good start. EVERYBODY should have one of these. Test every outlet in the house. 

If you have not used one, it tells whether the receptacle is wired correctly, and if not, what the problem is.

When killing power by pulling breaker, I plug it in near where I am working and leave it until finished, not that naybody other than me would touch a breaker. .


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## Hammerthumb (Dec 28, 2012)

I agree with Ibewjon. Unplug and check house ground to concrete. If any voltage is noted, start turning off other breakers feeding the house to see if one of them eliminates the voltage. The problem may stem from another area.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

With the new cord on the saw, disconnect the the wires from the switch, leaving only the ground connected to the saw. Then check for voltage from the saw to the floor. If there is still voltage, the house is the source of the problem.


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## crmitchell (Jan 13, 2013)

ibewjon said:


> Or when a house had electrified aluminum siding and the cable tv coax was melting. The siding installer had sided over the entrance cable for the service. The nail had hit a hot, but slipped between the loose braid shield wire used for neutral. The only ground the power could find was through the shield player of the coax.



Standing on aluminum stepladder while painting the soffit, wearing shorts so knees were in contact with the ladder. Touched the aluminum floodlight fixture with my hand and got lit up. Found the hot wire insulation had been cut through where it went into the fixture and in contact with the fixture (older house built with 2 wire system). 


Back in the 60's I got into ham radio in high school. We teenagers built our own transmitters from junk color TV parts. I was still using Morse code at the time. This particular transmitter was a work in progress, and I had not finished the keying circuitry and was using cathode keying. This puts the full voltage of the final amplifier tube on the Morse code key; in this case, 450V DC; really not the best idea, but hey, we were young. 

Middle of the night one night I was playing around. The receiver and transmitter were elevated about 6" above the small desk to give room for the key and forearm underneath. I was looking underneath with one hand on a knob on the transmitter above and my chin touched the top of the code key - 450 V through the chin to the hand. That smarted; fortunately it was DC.


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## gerald.polmateer (23 d ago)

I had a case like that one time and we noticed that the connection between cords opened up enough to let a weed get in between the connection. Once we took the weed out and closed the connection everything was fine. A few years ago I came across and article about using breakers that had a delay trip desgined for motors. Otherwise I could never use a motor in the shop without tripping a GFCI. The only way I prevented that was to use a long cord. Of course everyone knows what that does to the power at the motor.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

The long cord's impedance resists the inrush current. Try tying a knot in the cord to form a one turn inductor as an inrush snubber


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