# Breadboard ends help needed



## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

I am making a table from 7/8" thick spalted maple with a border of 1 3/8" rustic maple. The rustic maple is used to make the top appear thicker. I planned to put breadboard ends on the tabletop, but have an issue.
The table is supposed to be 60" long and I planned to have two 6" wide breadboard ends to make the table complete. The spalted maple is already cut 48" long and the two breadboard ends are 6" each, giving me the 60" needed. 
Unfortunately I didn't take into account the loss of the spalted length when I make the tenon. If I use 2" tenons on each end my table will shrink by 4" and I'll have a 56" long table. The breadboards are already cut too. 
Of course I can make new ends that compensate for the loss of the spalted maple tenon length, but that wastes wood and it kills me to have part of the spalted wood hidden inside a breadboard mortise.
What is the minimum length of tenon I can safely use to make the top. The width is 42" total. 
Is there any other way to make this top and preserve the maximum spalted material 
This is a gift so the quality of construction is the most important.
See photos for an idea of what I am dealing with. The breadboard is just sitting next to the top for the photo. 
Thanks for your input!
John


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Having never made breadboard ends, you'll have to take this idea and file it in the folder you wish. Can you do a floating tenon type of connection?


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Hello dominos and nailbanger with the win!


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Rather than cutting a tenon on the end of the top, how about cutting a slot and installing a spline (or a series of slots and splines? Sort of like biscuit joinery, but deeper grooves and wider splines for more strength and ability to keep the top flat. I would orient the grain of the spline to match that of the table top to minimize any potential problems with wood movement. Actually, if you could use some of the spalled maple you shouldn't have any issues.

Must be a winner of an idea, since two others posted comparable solutions while I was (slowly) typing!


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

I think floating tenons are your way out here. Something like 4" tenons with a spline in between would essentially create the same structure as a traditional BB end without losing length.


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

+1 for floating tenons.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

A breadboard end is a cap to prevent the rapid exchange of moisture through end grain. Unless it's relatively massive and on a proportionally short table, it has very little if any mechanical restriction of cupping. So the tenons must be long enough to have a little meat on the outside of the dowels, but that's all they need.

But, if you think about the mechanics of it, you don't want extremely wide breadboard ends hanging off of short thin tenons, because you'll have too much leverage at the end and run the danger of snapping the tenons off, or leveraging the ends off of their tenons.

Floating tenons are a great solution- glued into the top, and of course pegged, not glued, into the breadboard.

I don't see how dominos have enough room, that is, they're not wide enough, to allow for the elongated dowel/peg hole to be wide enough. IMO, something like, say, five or six tenons roughly the size and proportion of a poker deck (but thinner vertically, of course, considering the thinness of your top) would be best. A board of maple that wide is going to move so you need room to elongated your dowel holes.


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

OK guys it appears that a floating tenon may be my salvation. Thanks for your ideas
Questions: 
1. How deep into the spalted maple top do you make the slot?
2. assuming I use a "biscuit" cut from the same maple and oriented the same direction I assume that I would glue in these "biscuits. Correct?
3. How deep in the breadboard do I cut the slot?
4. I assume that I only glue just the center biscuit in the breadboard and pin the rest with elongated holes just as if I was doing a solid mortised and tenon. Correct? 
5. Considering the spalted maple top is 7/8" thick, what thickness would you make the slots and biscuits?
Thanks again guys!
John


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Great point bobro. The Domino has several settings for width

and different settings for depth, if I understand you correctly.


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks Guys, I understand what your saying about the need for material. I don't have a domino machine and unless I win the lottery I won't have one to do this job. 
I am concerned about only having 7/8" material thickness. If I cut a 1/4" slot that leaves me only 5/16"" thickness of table top supporting the biscuit. Is that ok?
In order to get a deep hole I see buying a up- cutting spiral bit of 1/4" diameter. This bit Freud 75-102 will cut 1" deep. Is this deep enough or should I chisel deeper and if do how much deeper. (don't have a mortise machine either dang it!
Thanks,
John


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

> OK guys it appears that a floating tenon may be my salvation. Thanks for your ideas
> Questions:
> 1. How deep into the spalted maple top do you make the slot?
> 2. assuming I use a "biscuit" cut from the same maple and oriented the same direction I assume that I would glue in these "biscuits. Correct?
> ...


Maybe Steve Rowes' excellent tutorial may shed some light:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/making-a-breadboard-end-with-the-domino/msg365913/?topicseen#msg365913


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

Didn't realize the domino had different widths, waho609, that's cool.

Personally I'd want the tenons good and wide- if you look at a traditional breadboard end, it's kind of a toss up as to whether you might call it a row of tenons, or one long tongue with gaps in it.

Michigander, the rule of thumb is thirds, but I think you want to favor the thickness of the tenon a bit here, so, 5/16". Because it will be glued into the top, you're basically recreating solid wood, so the tenons will be plenty strong.

And say 2 1/2" inches into either side, for a 5 inch tenon, oriented as you describe. That would be overkill on edge to edge floating tenons, but the glue in that case is stronger than the wood, whereas here you need a mechanical attachment. The elongated holes, in all the tenons except the center one, as you describe, should allow easily half an inch on either side of the dowel. 19th century stuff I've taken apart in salvage allows for about an inch per foot of width ( +/- 1/2" either way), kind of hard to argue with stuff that's still in perfect shape 130 years later.

Oh- Kazooman's idea of a short-grain spline between the tenons is great because of aesthetic considertions (decades later you might get a visual gap between the top and end). These wouldn't have to be more than 1/2" into both top and end, and of course like the tenons, glued into the top and not into the end.

Basically you're recreating the tenon/tongue part of a traditional breadboard end, with floating elements. It'll be great.


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

> Great point bobro. The Domino has several settings for width
> 
> and different settings for depth, if I understand you correctly.
> 
> - waho6o9


Yes, the Domino can cut a wide slot, but how do you cut a-say 1" wide-slotted hole for a dowel into the Domino without cutting the Domino in two?

I would use something like a 3" wide tenon-2" at a minimum


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks Bobro for the detailed explanation! 
If as you say I need a 5" total tenon, that means I need to cut a 2-1/2" deep groove to accept the floating tenon. Without a mortise machine how would I cut such a deep slot. I see Sorby makes 5/16" wide mortise chisel. I have a 1/4" chisel. Is that thick enough or should I buy the Sorby?
It looks like I have a lot of chopping ahead of me. Did I mention there are 2 benches that also need breadboards? ;~)
Thanks,
John


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

Michigander, others may disagree but I prefer a chisel narrower than the mortise. It might take a touch longer but I never have to resort to such shenanigans as clamping blocks about the edges for vertical reference, so, heh.

If you look at the profile of a typical breadboard end, it looks like a tongue and groove. You might call this an "open" breadboard. But if you think about what you're doing here, recreating the tenons/tongue with floating tenons, you'll see that you can't do this without looking like crap. So you need a "closed" breadboard end.

Had a little downtime in the shop this morning so instead of bopping over to the neighboring bar for a quick beer, I sawed and chopped out the tenons/tongue of a "closed" breadboard end on a cherry board.



So you can see the basic proportions of the thing. The mortises on the end piece need to be wider than each extended tenon; I'll go something like 1/4" on either side of the tenon on this one (the board is only about 11" wide).

Your work is harder because of the mortises. Because you're gluing grain to grain with the same kind of wood in the top, you could go with 2" into the top and 2 1/2" into the end, IMO. It's not hard, just take your time.

Oh- learned the hard way. If you're chopping a mortise into the end grain of a thin board, sandwich the thing between some pine boards, because the mechanical advantage (leverage) you get with a chisel is a lot more than might appear, and it's easy to crack the board on either side of the mortise. Until the tenon goes in, then the thing as a whole is extremely stong.


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## michelletwo (Feb 22, 2010)

do you have a dowel jig? that is a last resort ..can you afford the beadlock at rockler's? I call it the poor woman's domino.


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

Bobro, you are the man! Thanks so much for taking your time to not only address my questions but to build a mock up of my project is over the top. This helps immensely. I have never chopped a mortise before and my 1/4" mortise chisel is so far unused, but you give me confidence to get in the basement and start practicing. I understand your point about closed breadboards. That will make the breadboard look good from the side. When you made the long mortise in the end grain did you chop all of it or did you use a router? 
Enough questions for now, I'll get in my shop and see what happens!
I'll report later.
Bobro, you are a great example of the reason I so much enjoy this website! Thanks again for your help!
Best Regards,
John


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

Well Bobro, I practiced making mortises on some scrap cherry which worked out OK. However when I used spalted maple cutoff from the table top I found the material cracked very easily even though I used back up boards to support the walls. I even chiseled a border to start the mortise using a regular chisel, like how you define a dovetail. I've come to the conclusion I can't make a mortise in the spalted maple. It has hard and soft spots and I'm concerned about the overall durability of the table. So I am resigned to making a traditional tenon on the end of the spalted maple and giving up the length and making the breadboard longer so that I keep the 60" length. Using a traditional tenon, do you think I can safely use a 2" tenon length instead of a 2-1/2" like bobro you suggested? Here is a picture showing the breakout. 
Sorry for being such a pain on this project. I've learned there is a reason folks don't use spalted maple for large projects. 
One last question, I've heard that spalted maple can be "stabilized" using a "CR" glue. Does it make sense to do this to the tenons to strengthen them? Do you just brush CR glue on the wood surfaces?
Thanks for your input guys!
John


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

If you are having that much trouble with cutting the mortise, it doesn't bode well for the strength of the tenons if you cut them on the end of the top.

It occurred to me that your spalted maple is 7/8 and you are wrapping the entire perimeter with 1 3/8 maple. One way to provide extra strength and to attach the end pieces might be from the underside. You could make a 1/2" deep rabbit (or several) in the stock for the end piece and use 1/2" stock to join it to the table top. You would need to employ the usual precautions about cross grain situations and wood expansion, just as in the case for the tenons. Not a traditional way to join the pieces, but it could work and would not show.

Don't give up on keeping the full length of your spalted maple just yet. I am certain that someone will.come up with a solution.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

Spalted maple looks wonderful, awful to work with though. No real ideas on how to get you out of this fix, mostly what others have suggested.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

Well, Michigander, you can file my previous advice under "epic fail"! Your picture clearly shows that the approach I was recommending is not suitable for the spalted maple you are using. Even if you could make a clean mortise, the wood itself would be a weak point.

There is a solution: rip the spalted board into two, or four if necesary, boards narrow enough to fit into a bandsaw. Resaw and glue in bookmatches on both sides of 3/4" marine ply. This will be extremely strong and stable, let you attach the ends in any way you please, and let you lash the whole thing down to the aprons without worrying about movement. As all sides and ends are covered, it will be indistinguishable from bookmatched solid wood throughout. You'll get something like 1/8 - 3/16 maple on either side of the plywood, for an inch plus total.

For your earlier questions, I'm doing all hand tools- once in a while I drag an extension chord from the house to the unpowered shop to run an electric drill or table lamp, but that's it.


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## CypressAndPine (Jun 14, 2013)

Maybe I'm out of line here, but is it possible to put the tenon on the breadboard and the mortise on the table. I've never seen it before, but I can't think why it wouldn't work. It would also definitely make it one-of-a-kind.

Regards,
Jacob


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

If I understand a what you are suggesting correctly, you are thinking about tenons like those shown in Bobro's picture above, but on the edge of the breadboard. That would be very weak due to the direction of the grain. That's why several suggested floating tenons with the grain running perpendicular to the joint.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

An expensive all-wood solution which would leave the top as a single piece, without ripping it into narrower pieces, would be to make a giant 3-ply out of it with normal maple. The middle layer would be boards going crosswise. This gives a top over 2 1/2" inches thick.

This is just a theoretical possibility, because unlike the laminate I suggested earlier, which I know from experience to be stable and strong, I've never made such a giant thick plywood. Gluelam framing timber, which you'll see made of three thick boards, is in the form of beams, not sheets.

Personally I would not risk this unless I could find someone who's done it successfully.


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

Rather than spend money on marine plywood, buy instead a few new spalted maple boards that are 5" longer than the current 48" length top. I would then rip the top in 3 places and glue in the 3 pieces of 7/8" spalted maple giving me enough material to make 3 strong tenons. The tenons would be 5/8" thick. I made a sketch which I hope clears up what I propose.
In doing this I only need to buy one more board of spalted maple that is say 10" wide by about 53" long net. 
Do you guy think this would be a good fix?
I really appreciate all of your suggestions and help. As the spalted material is VERY expensive I'm trying to keep my cost down and still do a job that will last 100 years!
Thanks!
John

I have thought about this all day and bobro's idea of ripping the table and adding plywood gave me an idea.


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## Michigander (Oct 11, 2011)

I have thought about this all day and bobro's idea of ripping the table and adding plywood gave me an idea.
Rather than spend money on marine plywood, buy instead a few new spalted maple boards that are 5" longer than the current 48" length top. I would then rip the top in 3 places and glue in the 3 pieces of 7/8" spalted maple giving me enough material to make 3 strong tenons. The tenons would be 5/8" thick. I made a sketch which I hope clears up what I propose.
In doing this I only need to buy one more board of spalted maple that is say 10" wide by about 53" long net. 
Do you guy think this would be a good fix?
I really appreciate all of your suggestions and help. As the spalted material is VERY expensive I'm trying to keep my cost down and still do a job that will last 100 years!
Thanks!
John


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## SuperCubber (Feb 23, 2012)

That's sounds like the best idea yet! Do you plan on leaving a shallow shoulder on the main table top? I think that would be a good idea.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

That looks like a good solution. No one's mentioned the simple solution of laminating straight maple underneath the spalted, which would be hidden by the edgings. This would be strong, but I'd be leery of this because it seems to me that there's no way spalted wood is going to move in tandem with straight wood, and a table that wide would therefore want to cup, breadboard ends willy nilly.

Anyone here tried such a thing?


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

> That looks like a good solution. No one s mentioned the simple solution of laminating straight maple underneath the spalted, which would be hidden by the edgings.
> 
> - bobro


See my post above.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> That looks like a good solution. No one s mentioned the simple solution of laminating straight maple underneath the spalted, which would be hidden by the edgings.
> 
> - bobro
> 
> ...


Oh, sorry- I meant laminating the underside of the entire table top with straight maple. of equal or greater thickness, is that what you meant? I think they make spalted flooring like that, but that's thin and narrow stuff, not some great honking table top.


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Hey Bobro, Nope, not the entire length and there's the confusion. I was thinking of just a few shorter pieces attached to the underside of the spalted top. Perhaps 5" on the top side and 2 1/2" into the breadboard. Using the same stock would be beneficial to try to match the expansion. These would need to be attached to the breadboard end in a way to allow for the movement of the top. The problem I see with this is that the joint between the top and breadboard would be 7/8" deep and any downward pressure on the breadboard would tend to open the joint. This would need some sort of reinforcement to prevent that from happening and then we are right back where we started!

The spalted top looks really nice in the pictures. It would be great to find a way to preserve it entirely.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

> Hey Bobro, Nope, not the entire length and there s the confusion. I was thinking of just a few shorter pieces attached to the underside of the spalted top. Perhaps 5" on the top side and 2 1/2" into the breadboard. Using the same stock would be beneficial to try to match the expansion. These would need to be attached to the breadboard end in a way to allow for the movement of the top. The problem I see with this is that the joint between the top and breadboard would be 7/8" deep and any downward pressure on the breadboard would tend to open the joint. This would need some sort of reinforcement to prevent that from happening and then we are right back where we started!
> 
> The spalted top looks really nice in the pictures. It would be great to find a way to preserve it entirely.
> 
> - Kazooman


Yip. A very wide breadboard is like a powerful lever, if someone sits on the edge.


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