# Woodworking during Biblical Times



## ShannonRogers (Jan 11, 2008)

I am trying to help out my mother-in-law with her Sunday school class. She is doing a lesson on Jesus as a child working with his earthly father as a carpenter. I am cutting and prepping parts so that the kids can assemble a small stool using only tenons and wedges. I wanted to augment this with some background info on the tools and techniques of the time so I can weave a story into the lesson. Any thoughts out there on what kind of stuff was built and how way back in Roman and pre Roman times?


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## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

Check with Chris Swartz and Adam Cheribini at Popular Woodworking. It seems Chris duplicated a Roman plane from the time of Christ. It wasn't much different from A Krenov plane. I'm sure chisels and saws were pretty similar as well.


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## woodbutcher (Dec 29, 2006)

ShannonRogers,
Sorry that I'm unable to help with any historical information for your Sunday School Class-however I will share with you the fact that I just left another wood working site and requested that all information I had previously provided them be removed as well.My avatar seemed to violate the policies on their site.

Sincerely,
Ken McGinnis


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Ken, can't you just tell them it's a photo of your favorite carpenter?


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

The only thing that I could present is that furniture was for the wealthy. The common people probably sat on the floor and ate there. There were few workers of wood and the wood was probably used mostly for fires.

So I would think a rustic chair, probably of half logs or boards with the wain of the edge still present. Todays milled lumber would probably not be available.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

Back in '77 my family and I stood in line for five hours to see the King Tut exhibit in Washington D.C. Once inside I marveled at the craftsmanship in metal and wood. Obviously there were fine craftsmen as far back as 1200 BC.

An exquisite carrying chest, with poles that slid out from the bottom for two man carry caught my eye. I then realized that the chest I was looking at could have been made by the same craftsmen, or craft school, that made the Arc of the Covenant.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Google it


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## woodbutcher (Dec 29, 2006)

CharlieM1958,
I'm not sure what difference it would make to people who are this scared of art. The Avatar appeared on their site just as it appears here-untitled-My father who is now deceased painted this oil on canvas many years ago. The only thing I can imagine is that my father was capable of causing fear in the minds of Politicaly Correct Atheists simply by using a brush to create an idea he had. Surely this conceptualized painting of a man that my father created from his own mind cannot appear to be a definitive offense to all who view it! I maybe wrong-but i do not see displayed anywhere on this canvas-Prejudice,Race, or Religon-any of these offenses would have to be created and live only in the mind of the viewer. I can only feel sorry for people who have chosen to live in a fear filled world of their own choosing.
It sure is tough, living with any of ones own convictions,today in a world full of non-directional alarmists. Only goes to show that sheep will invariably follow the easiest path available to them. Take care my Friend and TY for your suggestion.

Sincerely,
Ken McGinnis


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

Hello Shannon. It's a question that I find fascinating. I can remember at Sunday School as a child, wanting to know more of that aspect of Joseph and Son. It seemed like such a big gap in the story after the birth!
There's a summary of the little bit of research that I did here:



So you see that recognisable planes did exist during Jesus Christ's lifetime, but in Joseph's workshop?..


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## gizmodyne (Mar 15, 2007)

This painting by Millais is titled Christ in the House of His Parents [Christ in the Carpenter's Shop]








I saw it at the Tate Gallery in London two years ago. It might be an interesting visual for the lesson as several tools are visible. Can't verify accuracy though. Source Page at: http://www.rossettiarchive.org/docs/op36.rap.html

Good luck.

John


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## ShannonRogers (Jan 11, 2008)

Great stuf guys! Yorkie, I agree that most of the tools we know today existed in some form during this time period with the Romans, but the Romans especially the army engineers that did most of the building had money backing them. I think in the much more pastoral setting of Nazareth and even considering the Jews were mostly nomadic at the time that something more akin to Karson's comment (sitting on the floor or rough log furniture) would be accurate. Some of my internet research has yielded some specifics that put the techniques closer to what we think of as Asian woodworking (saws cut on pull stroke) as there either wasn't a bench or a very low trestle was used. The cutting edges were flint or in rare cases bronze (expensive) but often housed in a frame or bow saw like we see on the wall in the painting above. I'm not sure about the Nicholson style bench though. Regardless this is a fascinating topic that merits more consideration.


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## Texasgaloot (Apr 8, 2008)

I can't hardly resist this one! I'll be watching it with a lot of interest!

Ken: their loss is our gain, and for certain! You're welcome here! Let me publicly thank you for being man enough to honor your father by being proud of his work!

John, Shannon, & all… I'm worse than a loose canon when it comes to art history, but I've seen enough iconography (in seminary, etc.) to say "Hey… that looks familiar!" I know nothing of Millais beyond what can be learned by following John's link for the painting source, which ultimately is that he completed this work abouit 160 years ago, not during the Renaissance which this painting reminds me of. Rembrant in particular would give his subjects special poses and such to imbue meaning to the painting, and the first thing I noticed was the position of the Christ-child's left hand. After that I noticed that it was his mother holding him (I'm a really quick study) something that doesn't seem like raw logic in the middle of a workshop in the middle of the day… I can't really tell accurately what sort of tool it is laying in the middle of the workpiece, but it looks metallic, and yes, the bench gives one pause, as does the Western features of the idealize faces, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that I think this is a wonderful work of art, and I in no means intend to put it down. My point is this: since there is at least one bit of symbolism at work here, we might consider that there is probably a lot more lurking and therefore we might approach the historical value of our subject with a questioning eye.
I love this thread! I hope there are a lot more LJ's out there that can contribute! Thanks for starting it, Shannon!


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## DerekL (Aug 18, 2008)

Gizmo - you can't really use older paintings as references for ancient times, as the painters generally included details they saw around them (like the 18th century workbench) not details they'd researched. When they weren't doing that, they were concentrating on (as TexasGaloot correctly points out) adhering to iconography - that is, including the details that tradition said Must Be There rather than reflecting reality.

Karson - Keep in mind that then, as now, there were graduations of affluence. The very poorest might sit on the floor, but move up the ladder and you'll find rough benches etc., with the quality of the work and the material rising with the status and the affluence of the owner. It's nothing like today where 80% of the population shops at the same relatively limited selection of big box stores.

Shannon - yes, some Jews then were nomadic. Others were confirmed city dwellers.


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## gizmodyne (Mar 15, 2007)

Another interesting link: Woodworking in the Roman Empire 
http://books.google.com/books?id=DDh5yOgfnuoC#reviews_anchor


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## dlux (Dec 31, 2008)

I will be very interested to hear what you find!


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

Here are a couple links I've found… I don't know how accurate it is… so, take it at face value… hope that helps.

http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/pictures/Furniture.htm

http://www.biblesociety.com.au/pdf/Enc%20sample.pdf


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2008)

Ken,
How could your avatar violate policy???

BTW: your father was an excellent artist.


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## ShannonRogers (Jan 11, 2008)

Thank you all for your input. Here is a link to my blog/podcast I just posted my latest podcast with the results of my research and a step by step build of my little biblical stool.


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## SteveKorz (Mar 25, 2008)

Dave R-

That is very interesting…. Thanks for taking the time to research and post it.

Steve


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I doubt that style of vise was in use in Biblical times. That looks
like a 16th century painting and it was common for painters to
dress saints in common fashions of the painter's own time, and
show common household items familiar to viewers. Sometimes
Biblical scenes get to looking pretty strange when the chararcters
are dressed in Renaissance garb, but that's what spoke to the
local audience the best, so that's what the artist used.

Just as I once thought my parents inhabited a black and white world
when they were children (all the old TV shows and movies
were, after all, in black and white) - illiterate people of past
centuries would have had a hard time imagining times and places
where people dressed differently or lived differently. We take
a lot for granted because we have so much media showing us
recreations of the past.

I ran across a picture of a statue of St. Joseph a while. It showed
him with a leg vise, a square, a plumb bob, and a compass.

Leg vises can be made pretty primitively without a tap and die or
need to carve a screw. In biblical times much woodworking was
done with the axe, chisel, and adze. Today most of us aren't
very skilled with an axe or and adze but the carpenters of old
would be very skillful in the use of these basic tools.


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## Sawdust2 (Mar 18, 2007)

I find woodbutcher's comment very illuminating.

It wasn't that long ago that a bunch of religious minded members had someone else's art removed and another's credo removed because it was not Christian.

How unChristian like that was.

If you expect others to be tolerant of your beliefs it requires an equal tolerance on your part.

Tolerance is woefully lacking on this site.

Lee


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## woodbutcher (Dec 29, 2006)

Sawdust2,
I'm unaware of any past issues involving editing at this site, so I'll refrain from commenting on that.Deletion of my untitled Avatar on another site, however required an assumption on some one elses' behalf, that it could be offensive. I simply believe he created the only offensive thing that the Avatar could represent in his own mind. I hope that you've not erroneously concluded that I am an intolerant person because I've advocated tolerance in my case.
I like your little comment on project pieces! I'm just curious, how many smaller projects must I create before arriving at an actual full size one? May all your future pieces be of intended size.

Sincerely,
Ken McGinnis


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

What an exceptionally fine podcast you prepared for us Shannon. Thank you!


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## ShannonRogers (Jan 11, 2008)

Yorkshire, you're just happy because I used your handplane as an example. Glad you enjoyed it!


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## Waldschrat (Dec 29, 2008)

Alright everyone settle down! I have the answer to the original question and a very definitiv one at that
I am currently studying art, furniture and architechtual history, I have actually a text book next to me with some pictures to augment what my answer is…

... So there was furniture… actually a variety of it. Ok the people in the "sklaven" class probably did not have much but the important thing here is correctness, so thats point one.

Do not underestimate the romans! They actually had wood turners, joiners carpenters, shipwrites, and carvers not to mention a veneer was used as well as many very valubale woods used and imported in from africa. (in although much earlier, there were tribes and "kingdoms" that were located along the Nile, who shipped a number of Ebony tree trunks every year as tributes to theEgyptians! )

They had a number of furniture types as i said, Chairs, Coffee Table like pieces, Cabinets with doors and hinges, in fact they have dug some out of Pompei that date from around 50 AD. Three legged tables with very ornate leg carvings of wood as well as metal often with animal like legs or feet carved.

The second point I would like to make to the original question, relating to earlier furniture, Well, as one other had said already, the Egyptians were masters at already so we are talking 3000 to about 300 BC. The Greeks were also there too with their style of furniture and art ca. 700 til ca. 150 BC, as well as the Romans, the Egyptians and Greeks had furniture as I have stated but what is interesting is that one can follow how the Western style of furniture evolved from the Egyptians to the the Romans (speaking of dates heres for Rome ca 500 BC til ca. 500 AD and 1450 for the Eastern Roman Empire). The Egyptians started the cool trend of putting carved animal like feet on their chairs and tables this is characteristish but even more specific, or a specialty of Egyptian furniture is that the feet are alway facing forward (there may exist exceptions, but I am totally unaware of them). The greeks Borrowed this and made it a bit different, namely the feet are no longer facing one direction but sometimes outward and some times inward. The Greeks were at one time great workers of wood, if fact some here may have heard of the "Klismos) a light very curved and masterly built chair. Although they used Trunks mainly for storage furniture was also there in the pre Roman, pre Christ times as well and highly devolped at that and probably as 8iowa would also attest to.

It is an interesting theory, if not fact that the Greeks devoloped there famous columns based on tree stems, which the temples were originally made of. If fact if you look at the Tryglyphon (the part ontop of the Architrav which sits directly on top of the columns) there are what is called Tryglyphe carved into the the Tryglyphon(made of marble or other stone), which are to represent the endgrain of beams of wood used in the earliest temples built in Greece.

Now it is a question of how devolped were the peoples of the Roman provences…. that is where my knowledge ends on this subject thread. The Hebrew peoples and the rest of the middle east is not exactly known for their vast and lush forested areas so I can only imagine simple not wood intensive furniture would be the rule more than the exception… thenagain there are the famous Cedars of Lebanon.


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## YorkshireStewart (Sep 20, 2007)

Ah yes, I did just notice that Shannon!. Thanks!


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

Very entertaining and thought provoking thread. I find myself fascinated with the thought of Joseph and Jesus's relationship as father and son…

Joseph: Jesus, go clean your room or I swear it will be your last supper!
Jesus: You can't tell me what to do! YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!!!

All blasphemy aside, wood working must predate time by at least a small amount. Obviously someone had to invent the table before someone used it to write on. Maybe not, but you could have a chicken and egg argument with that one.

I would conjecture that if you were rich enough to have a home, then furniture came on a needs basis. Much of it would have been handed down through families (if not officially willed that way) but if you needed a table, you put four legs down and threw a relatively flat log on top. If you could afford (and how would we know the cost to income ratio of such a transaction at that point in history) to buy a chair, then you were lucky. Otherwise, you didn't pay your cable bill for a few months and saved up for it, right???

~DB

P.S./F.Y.I.: Just so I don't get totally flamed I should mention that the above was intended as humor. I'm actually a devoted Christian who leads a weekly devotional service at my church. I just also happen to have a very sick sense of humor. I just pray every day that God does too!


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## pokieone (Jun 29, 2008)

Oh DannyBoy, God said that He forgets our sins. Better hope He forgets this one! OK, if you're Catholic, say many Hail Mary's and whip yourself with your Rosary. If not Catholic, be creative in your punishment.


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## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

I really am amazed sometimes, when I get the feeling that people think that in the times of Christ, they couldn't do much with wood or that what they did was crude.. 500 years before Christ, King Soloman built the Temple. There were masons, who worked the stone and woodworkers who carved the cedars of Lebenon and guilded them with gold. Yes, there were the poor people who had crude furniture, but don't think that King Herod had junk for furniture, only the best.
Some people try to say that there wasn't wood workers at the time of Christ, that He must have been a stone worker…....ridiculous, or I hope Peter's stone boat could float.
I'm sure the artisans of old could do work quite equal to ours, maybe not as fast, because we have power tools, but I bet you'd be amazed at their ingenuity for using non (electric) power tools.
Do recall, they still are trying to figure out how the pyramids and places like Machu Pichu were built…..yoda


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

You might rethink your whole lesson plan.

I also posted this on another blog. Looking at a History channel special on the life of Jesus awhile back they looked at old scrolls and correctly translated the word that we take to mean carpenter. It seems that the correct profession of Joseph and Jesus was 'builder'. A builder in those days was a mason. All the poorer parts of the cities were made of loosely laid stones much like you see in the ruins of the area today. The builder job was considered a very lowly profession. If Joseph had been a carpenter he would have been a very rich man. There was little wood to be had and only the wealthy could afford the rare metal tools. A carpenter usually made furniture for the wealthy of the day. The commoners used stone tables and seating. It all seems to fit as if the Holy family had been carpenters they would have be wealthy and lived in a richer part of town with the aristocracy of the day. All the references you see today of Jesus with a hammer and wood are mistakes propagated by centuries of art and incorrect assumptions.


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## woodyoda (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't believe there were any carpenters as we know them today…..If the Bible had meant a mason, don't you think they would have used the same word for mason, that they used in the time of Solomon. It says " 
they had masons and clever craftsman of wood, who built with the cedars of lebannon…....
Jesus may have been a builder (and whatever they meant by that), but if He was a mason, they would have said so. I guess, the question is builder of what? It doesn't say houses, could have been olive boxes…..who knows? When I get there, Ill ask Him and let you know…....................................................................yoda


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## DerekL (Aug 18, 2008)

Daniel - the History Channel's reliability factor is… not so great. I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt, a cubit or two on a side.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Jesus was said to be of the house of David - there's this story about
the family having to go to Galilee and having no place to stay -
but that's because the inns were full, not because they had
no money to pay - if memory serves

Just because JK went into teaching and political action doesn't
make his family poor. It's reasonable to guess he got some 
traction and credibility as a rabbi from being a descendent of
the house of David.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

"If the Bible had meant a mason, don't you think they would have used the same word for mason, that they used in the time of Solomon. It says "

Actually the bible was in hebrew and the versions of the bible we have today were translated from the greek versions, so the word 'mason' is probably not applicable. The word that translates to builder in the greek version was a mason. A builder is the word for rock layer. Just like the picture above of the modern woodworking bench being used by craftsmen of the time leads people to think that they actually used something like this. The visuals in our minds from writings and art through the ages greatly impact how we perceive these things. From art, we each of us even thinks we know what Jesus looks like. And it's a westsern view. Art has painted him looking like a 14th century european. In Africa he's black.

Hey, I'm a christian. I'm not trying to refute christianity. But there's nothing wrong with getting a few historical facts straight if that's possible!


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## DannyBoy (Oct 26, 2007)

As blasphemous as it sounds, one shouldn't take the bible too literally. As Daniel said above, it is a translation. In many times the current bibles out there are translations of translations. Consider taking a carving of wood and sticking it on a copy machine to get copy of what it looks like, then copy that copy. There is a ton of detail lost in the "translation" that you can't fit.

The story of Jesus was not even settled upon by the "Church" until 300 years later when Constantine decided that Rome would no longer persecute Christians. In that 300 years their were nearly as many different Christian religions. What we know as the bible was actually just a summary of the religious stories that were circulating at that time. Even with the thought that the Book was written by divine inspiration, who are we to assume that the whole story is there?

Anyway, that is outside the point. I would take a closer look at whether Jesus actually was a "builder" or was the son of a "builder" which is what some stories seem to suggest.

~DB


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## woodworker59 (May 16, 2012)

I wish I was here when this thread got started… there are sooooooo many things I would like to say.. oh well… Papa


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

As of August 8 , 2012 , LJ rules state that discussions of religion and politics is banned and previous
threads containing them should not be 'bumped " .


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

.-.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

And yet you "bumped" it twice again yourself,... didn't you?


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## Bogeyguy (Sep 26, 2012)

> ?Jesus needed tools


?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

Joe , when you said " twice again " .......well…........"twice again " equals 4 times ,not 2 .


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I first had "twice" in parenthesis, but it looked odd. Shoulda left it that way.

And yet you "bumped" it again yourself,... (twice)... didn't you? 

How's that?


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## S4S (Jan 22, 2011)

That's sounds more better to my eyes !


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