# What wood to use for French Cleat System?



## mlindegarde

I'm planning to more or less cover one wall of my shop with french cleat strips. I like the flexibility that the system offers. Is there a type of wood I should or should not use?

I've seen some people using 3/4 plywood, some using 3/4 pine, and some using maple. Pine strikes me as a softer wood, so I'm not sure it's the best choice. On the other hand, 3/4'' x 3'' x 8' is readily available. 3/4'' Birch plywood is stable; however, I don't like that 3/4'' plywood is 23/32'' and usually has voids in it. I think Maple is harder than Pine; however, it isn't something readily available to me in a usable form (I don't have a thickness planer or jointer).

I'm beginning to think that in reality just about any wood could work. While I'm not planning on hanging dumbbells from the wall, I'd don't want to have to worry about my cabinets falling off of the wall.

Thanks in advance for any input.


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## Rick Dennington

Use any wood you want to…..the choice is yours….it all will work…..Sounds like you've pretty well convinced yourself…...


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## toddc

Don't over analyze the situation. It all works.

I have used several different types of wood and plywood materials over the years as a contractor and it all works just the same.

I don't particularly like the whole concept of the "modular french cleat system." I just screw cabinets and holders straight to the wall. I can fill the holes & touch up paint as necessary if I choose to move anything, but the reality is, there is usually a limitation on what can go where.

Cabinets logically fit in a specific area, clamps hang in a certain area, and so on…

I will admit that I have made changes to the layout in my shop, but the french cleat system would not have done me any good or have had any added benefit.


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## a1Jim

I think poplar would be a good choice.


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## redryder

You don't want to use 3/4 inch plywood because it has voids in it or Pine because it is soft?? If you screwed either to the wall sufficiently, you could probably hang your work bench from it. I suggest that you do not really know what a french cleat is….................


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## craftsman on the lake

My cleat system is only for a wall that has hanging tools, not cabinets. I find that 1/2" plywood works quite well. No need to spend any more. A sheet of ply can make your cleat strips for the wall and have plenty left for the hangers.


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## NiteWalker

Plywood would be my choice.

It would hold just fine.

I like the french cleat system for hanging cabinets, but not a whole wall system. Just MHO.


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## mlindegarde

@Todd A. Clippinger
Given that I'm new to wood working, I don't really know what tools I'll use most frequently, what layout I'll like for the shop, etc… For these reasons I'm going with the easy to modify approach. I can see why you may not care for the french cleat approach.

@redryder
I do indeed know what a french cleat is: it is not the world's most complicated concept. The void issue is strictly an aesthetic concern. In regards to the softness of Pine: I don't know if it matters or not, thus the question.

As someone completely new to wood working, the problem I have is that wood choices usually are not explained. I have a copy of Wood Magazine where Maple is the wood of choice but no reason is given for the choice. Why was Maple chosen over Pine? Personal preference? Is there an advantage to the harder wood? Does Maple move less with humidity?

What I didn't want to do is pick a wood, cover my wall with it (no, I don't mean cover every inch, likely a total of four rows) and discover that there is a reason I shouldn't have chosen Birch plywood, pine, etc…

@everyone
Thanks for the constructive (and not-so-constructive) feedback. I see that material choice doesn't really matter that much in this case.


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## mlindegarde

@NiteWalker
It's pretty likely that by the time I'm done with my shop cabinets will span the width of the wall. In reality, the french cleat will pretty much just end up being used to hold up cabinets. In the mean time, I intend to use some of the smaller scraps to make holders for various tools / clamps.

Perhaps I should have asked the question this way, "What wood do you use for your french cleats and why?"


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## davidroberts

Since you are asking for advice, I'm going to give you the best advice I got when my bench grinder cabinet fell off a cleat to the floor with a mighty crash. The grinder and wheels, and even the cabinet are fine. But my ego was bruised up a bit. A 1×4 fine cleat is fine, no big deal in that regard. Here's the first part of the advice. Screw a 2×4 to the wall and parallel to the bottom of the cabinet. The weight of the cabinet is supported by the 2×4. The cleat just hold the cabinet firm to the wall. Here's the rest of this wonderful advice. Put a couple of three good screws through the back of the cabinet and into studs. Yeah, I had the same reaction…


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## mlindegarde

@davidroberts
Thanks for the story. Common sense suggests that at some point you need more than just a cleat to support the weight of whatever it is you're putting on the wall. I'd like to do what I can to not find that point the hard way.


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## toddc

I woke up this morning and the first thing that entered my mind was that my response may have come across crass or dismissive to your ideas. So first I offer my sincere apology if I did.

I will expand a little more on the information. In my experience, strength is not so much an issue for the materials, they all work adequately.

If some of the cleat will still be seen, then you may want to choose something that looks good and ages well. If it is exposed to potential impact for some reason (maybe you stack something against it) then you might consider something hard like maple.

I would not use pine simply because I do not care for the way it handles in milling and it is uber-soft. I would choose poplar. It is actually very inexpensive and I prefer the way it handles in milling. It is the go-to wood for inexpensive paint grade/stain grade material.

If you want to use plywood, I would choose baltic birch over other types of plywood because it has more laminations and this makes it a bit more dense. The exposed edges are also more attractive if it will be visible anywhere.

If you are going to be hanging heavy items, then I would plan on using strips wide enough to put a couple of screws and insure that they hit the studs. Technically, I would say hardwood will have the greatest holding strength and use some good screws. It would be a good idea to pre-drill a pilot hole to keep the wood from splitting and add a tidy countersink. NEVER - NEVER EVER use sheetrock screws for your woodworking. As a contractor I see how often the heads break off just screwing sheetrock to soft wood studs so I do not recommend them ever for woodworking.

Stability, as far as expansion and contraction goes, is not really an issue when it comes to french cleat material. Seasonal movement is more of a critical issue for larger panels, the operation of wooden drawer components, and inset solid wood doors, etc but this is not a situation where seasonal movement is a problem.

If you are going to have maple or baltic birch ply cabinets, then maybe contrasting black walnut strips would look cool. You can take the opportunity to display a little aesthetic creativity.

For the most part, any of the materials listed will work. If you have an extra heavy cabinet for some reason, you can hang it on the french cleat and add a few extra screws through the cabinet into the studs. If the screw is not passing through the french cleat material, be sure to add some filler material behind the cabinet. You want solid material between the cabinet and the wall where ever you place the screw.

I hope this answer is a little more fulfilling and helpful by providing more insight to the situation.


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## mlindegarde

@Tood A. Clipinger
Thank you very much for the very helpful response: it is the sort of answer I was hoping to get. What you said both confirms what I had planned to do and filled in some gaps in my knowledge.

My intent is to use 3'' wide strips with two #10 - 2 1/2'' (maybe just 2''?) screws per stud. I do have the necessary tools to properly counter sink the wood screws. I don't plan on painting or staining the wood (I will seal it, but I intend to leave it natural looking).

I'm considering using red oak. I will have baltic birch cabinets, so the red oak might provide a better contrast than poplar.


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## BinghamtonEd

I assume you're doing something like this :
http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Projects/Home-Organization/Garage-Storage/garage-storage-systems

That is the system I built, to those plans, and it worked out great. I put 1/4" red oak ply on the walls, and used 3/4" pirch ply for the rails. Finished with 3 coats of oil-based poly, and the colors contrast nicely. You can seet it in the background of this picture. If you'd like to see a larger picture of the wall, let me know. Strengthwise, I am 235lbs, and I hang all of my weight on a single rail.


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## Vincent

I use either pine or poplar for my french cleats because they are readily available and relatively cheap. Typically I use a 1×4. for the cleat. I looked at the picture of your workshop and it looks like brick and perhaps insulated studs above. What will the finished wall be (as is or drywall or…..)? I think that a 2" or 2.5" screw may be too light. My shop walls are 1/2" wallboard and 3/8" plybead. I used 3.5" #10 screws (2/stud) to hang my cleats. I have several heavy wall cabinets on each cleat and had no issues.


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## Grandpa

The load is actually carried by the screws. They are placed in shear and the load pulls mostly straight down. I think balsa wood might work if the screws were the right kind and length. If I were using 3/4 inch thick wood over 1/2 inch wall board I might rethink the 2 inch screws but the screws are the most important part of this system. I would go with something inexpensive like poplar and get some good screws that are 2 1/2 inches long or longer. use plenty of screws and anchor to the studs only. Anything less might leave your tools in the floor. Utility or drywall screws are brittle. Regular wood screws are not so hard but they are tougher so to speak. Good luck with the project. We will be expecting some photos.


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## mlindegarde

@Vincent Nocito
I had completely forgotten that I even had a picture of my shop on this website. That picture is a bit out of date. I've framed the back wall using 2×4 studs (and finished the workbench). I don't actually intend on going any further with the wall. When it comes time to finishing the basement (something a professional will handle) my shop's entire layout may have to change. It's the main reason I'm going for a relatively cheap and easy to move solution (no, I don't mean the wall, I mean the things I end up hanging on the wall).

By all means, let me know if there is a solid reason I shouldn't just leave the studs exposed. I kind of like the look of the exposed studs and it makes it incredibly easy to re-wire the outlets (don't worry, I don't have exposed wires laying around)

@Grandpa
Thanks for the details on the load. I'll post pictures when I'm done; however, I'm incredibly busy with work that actually pays the bills. It'll probably be quite a while before I get things done.

@Grandpa & Vincent Nocito
So it seems that 4'' poplar with two 3'' #10 screws per stud might be my best bet.


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## Vrtigo1

I think Grandpa is right on. Most of the stress is on the screws and is pulling straight down. I don't think the strength of the wood should be a factor unless you are storing something really heavy in the cabinets. That having been said, what I have used in the past is the cheap 3/4" birch plywood from home depot. Nobody is going to see it in my case since it is behind cabinets, and it works just fine. I think 2.5" might be a bit short on the screws. Remember that you are going through 3/4" of plywood and probably another 1/2 - 3/4" of drywall before you hit a stud, so you could be getting as little as 1" of the screw into the stud. I would use 3.5" lag screws, just make sure to countersync them so the heads do not sit proud of the surface of the cleat. I would look for the screws that have the flattest head so I could minimize the depth of the countersync for strength.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I have a set of cabinets (these) that are hanging on french cleats and they are rock solid. Granted, the heaviest thing that goes in them is laundry detergent.


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## Finn

I have made them of metal. Handy way to hang a large mirror or heavy object of any kind, by oneself. I use a french cleat to hold the item in place so I can then screw it to the wall. This makes is easier to remove by yourself also.


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## MrRon

Any wood will work. Make sure they are securely attached to the wall and back of the cabinets. I use them all the time, not so I can remove them quickly, but because it is a one man job. It is so much easier to just lift and put in place over holding it in place, checking level and driving screws into the wall. Usually a helper is needed.


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## ben10

I used 3/4" plywood for my cleats. Used 2) 3" GRK construction screws per stud to anchor them. I have several very heavy cabinets hung from them! I was more worried about the cleat coming loose from the cabinet than the wall, so I glued and screwed them to the back of the cabinet. I would sometimes use 2 cleats on the back of the cabinets. I have also used 2x's as cleats (w/lag screws) for my lumber rack. That holds alot of weight!


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## pintodeluxe

I only use Russian Olive wood for French cleats (makes sense right?). Remember to French polish them afterwords. When you are done have a baguette, crepe, or crossant.


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## crank49

A little advise, well intentioned, of course.

If you want to support a shelf on a cleat, don't.
Unless you provide a vertical runner for the top half of the cleat that is at least as tall as the shelf is deep.
With out the vertical runner the shelf and bracket will simply roll right out of the cleat and fall.
Of course, if you have to install a runner and screw it to the wall anyway, why add complication and expense of the cleat in the first place?

I think the slat wall system is far superior.
I made my own version of this and it works very well.


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## Grandpa

Someone mentioned using 2 cleat for heavy loads. The human mind tells us to do this but one of the cleats will carry all the load. It is virtually impossible to get both cleats exactly the same distance apart as the cleats on the back of the cabinet. Just can't do it in a cut and assemble world. If we had a machine shop would could get close but still one cleat would do the work. One lug on a riffle bolt does all the locking. If you have 3 lugs you usually see only one contacting. You have to lap them in with compound and I don't think any of us would undertake this with a cabinet. One cleat is all you need to carry the load. The second would be a spacer to hold the cabinet vertical.


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## Marlow

I use 3/4" baltic birch: looks nice, and nothing has fallen of the walls, yet.


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## JoeLyddon

Yes, I agree with Todd & Jim… It all works!

I use Poplar most of the time… but, it really doesn't make much difference…

Just make sure the wood isn't weak & rotten! LOL


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## dhazelton

I helped out doing some installation work for a friends cabinet shop. They made the cleats out of plywood and yes, they were screwed to each stud with two sheetrock screws - the sheer strengh is there. BUT they would not hang a cabinet over an island into ceiling joists with sheetrock screws for just the reason stated above. You don't really screw cabinets directly to a wall because no wall is really straight due to framers working with bowed/twisted studs, and the sheetrockers building up mud in corners. A masons line is drawn taught and that is a straight reference line for you to shim your cleat to - you then have a dead straight line to hang you cabinets off. You also have to shim out the cabinet bottoms if necessary so doorframes are plumb. All that being said, I wouldn't go nuts in a garage - plywood cleats and two drywall screws per stud will hold fine as long as your cabinet is stout.


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## JoeLyddon

If using plywood, I'd make sure that it's a good Grade of ply… Sounds like it could easily fail if the ply was bad…

IMHO…


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## mlindegarde

@Joe Lyddon
I've pretty much settled on 1''x4'' poplar as my wood of choice. I had considered red oak but ultimately I don't think it's worth the additional cost. As far as putting it on the wall, I'm going with two 3'' #10 wood screws per stud. I think this combination should do the job as long as I do a good job securing the other half of the cleat to the cabinets, clamp racks, etc…

@dhazelton
Thanks for the information. I'm avoiding sheetrock / drywall screws. I don't plan to "go nuts", but then again, projects have a way of getting more and more involved as they progress.


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## roman

over thinking a situation creates a problem that was never there to begin with

use scrap……………


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## JoeLyddon

*@mlindegarde*

You're on a good Track now!


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## Sich

I am embarking on a major bench-room wall paneling project with French cleats on two opposing walls. The studs were not very well aligned so I hung sheets of 3/4 Baltic Birch as a substrate on which to hang the permanent cleats. The surface of the plywood is very straight, probably to a 1/64. My basic shelf/till length is 28" so alignment of the substrate is very critical if the shelves are to be lined up nicely, or so I thought until I realized that the moveable cleat doesn't need to span the entire length of the shelf/till. Now I am planning to install moveable cleats only about 4" long on each end of the shelf/tills.


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## Sich

It's possible that I will conclude that a moveable (removeable) cleat needs to be added to the center of the shelf assembly.

I have decided to use quarter-sawn white oak. That may be a little overkill. But building these walls will take a lot of time. And I don't want them to come apart. I find it most efficient to do a job only once and then be able to use it without the hassle of continual maintenance.

A Sketchup model was helpful in working out the design details.


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## Sich

I am going to try to develop a "hidden fastener" approach so the wall will look like paneling. It may be a cover on the French Cleat, as suggested by a good friend.


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## RogerM

You are analyzing this to death. Use any wood that is handy. The stress is mostly on the screws not the wood.


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## BobAnderton

I think the OP asked a good question. I used plywood cleats in my shop and subsequently hung cabinets on them that were loaded with enough weight that I'm starting to see the limits of plywood in that application. Plywood is prone to separate between the layers more readily than solid wood would be. I would use solid wood (oak for example) if I had to do it again.


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## clin

Not sure why this 4 year old thread was brought back form the dead. But if we're going to discuss French cleats, I'll play.

I've covered 3 walls of my shop with cleats. About 10 rows from say 2ft up to 8 ft (I have 9 ft ceilings).

I was originally going to go with slat wall, but the good stuff would have cost me about $3k and then still require various hangers, and still require about almost a million screws. So I decided to go with French cleats. Still took a half million screws (or maybe it was just 600). Still a lot. But I think it took 4 sheets of pre-finished Birch plywood ($200).

In my case I ripped the plywood into 6 1/2" wide lengths. Then ripped these down the center at 45 degrees. Each cleat was about 3 1/2" on the wide side and 2 3/4" or so on the short. I made them wide enough that I could get two screws into each stud.

I mounted them with 3" long #10 star (Torx) construction screws. There was 5/8" drywall already there. It was some work, but I like it. I've built and hung 5 good size wall cabinets (36" H x 30" W). Works fine.

However, given the irregularities in the the wall, they do not fit side by side perfectly. If you want perfect alignment, like you would for kitchen cabinets, I wouldn't go with French cleats unless you are going to shim or otherwise adjust the cleat on the cabinet. Or of course shim the wall cleats so they are arrow straight. In my shop, I don't care.

I've already made some use of the ability to move the cabinets around and enjoy banging out the odd bracket to hold whatever widget I want to the wall. But it is early days for me on this. So whether or not I make good use of the flexibility, only time will tell.

In my case, I chose the pre-finished plywood because, well it was pre-finished. I didn't worry about the edges and have not put any finish on them. You really can't see them unless you are trying, and well it's a shop.

This is BIMP (Asian) plywood and not the really good Baltic Birch. But is more than adequate for the job. I've done some simple calculations. 200 lbls of cabinet would of course apply 200 lbs of downward shear, but only about 20 lbs of force pulling the cleat out from the wall. In my case that would be 200 lbs carried by 2 studs (more or less). So they are plenty strong for the task. And 20 lbs of pulling force is nothing on a total of 4 screws (2 in each stud).


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## CaptainSkully

Use the wood most locally available at the right price point per lineal foot that has the highest shear strength. Then let the screws do the rest:

http://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-topics/wood/146-wood-strengths.html

Far right column is of interest.


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## rad457

Birch, Maple or Walnut IMO are the only woods worth of being a Cleat!


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## Rob_s

Realizing this is a relatively old thread…

Wouldn't it be possible to get the load on more than one cleat by hanging the two cleats on the wall, then setting the other half of each cleat in the groove, then attaching your item to both cleats?

I understand that as things swell and contract they may bear on different surfaces at different times, but for the most part wouldn't they be bearing on both (or all if more than two are used) the cleats at the same time?


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## dday

I have double commercial ( break room type) cabinets in my shop. I bought them for $20 a piece at an auction and couldn't resist. I used some 1×3 oak from pallets for the French cleats and used 2 cleats per cabinet, using a story stick to get them exact. They are held to the wall with 4 inch decking screws driven into the studs - three studs across. The cabinets are heavy enough empty , they are that plastic coated MDF, that it tool 3 men to hang them. I did drive 2 additional screws through the cabinet back into the stud with a fender washer at my wife's insistence ( after all , my shop doubles as my garage and one of the cabinets is hanging directly over the nose of my Mustang)..

They've been hanging up for 2 years now and I've had no issues. I moved one over once, about one stud's worth, and I just unscrewed the "anchor" screws and moved them down the cleat.


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## RogerM

Any scrap wood will do just fine.


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## Cooler

I've been using French Cleats for years. I've even hung cardboard mounted posters using French cleats. I use whatever 3/4" scrap I have on hand. The key thing is to make sure that it is level. And if it is something that can be brushed up against a single nail or screw will lock it in place.


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## Finn

I have made them of metal. Just another idea.


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## clin

> Realizing this is a relatively old thread…
> 
> Wouldn t it be possible to get the load on more than one cleat by hanging the two cleats on the wall, then setting the other half of each cleat in the groove, then attaching your item to both cleats?
> 
> I understand that as things swell and contract they may bear on different surfaces at different times, but for the most part wouldn t they be bearing on both (or all if more than two are used) the cleats at the same time?
> 
> - Rob_s


Sure you can do that. May or may not be necessary. Anytime you have multiple mounting points, where either one could theoretically carry the whole load (I.E., one cleat above another), there's no sure way to make them share the load.

What tends to happen, when you have an indeterminate load, is the one that carries more load will give a little transferring load to the other. This of course assumes the mounts are close. I.E. one cleat isn't so far off that it can't possibly carry load.

Keep in mind that you can measure everything perfectly and they still won't share load well. The reason is the walls are seldom flat. So the wall cleat bows a little. Because of the 45 degree cut, this can make the cabinet cleat ride higher or lower. So even with a single cleat, the wall and cabinet cleats may only touch in a few places. This isn't a problem as both cleats are typically more than strong enough to transfer these points loads across the cleat to either the wall mount or the cabinet mount, depending on which cleat where considering.

In general, I don't think there is anything really gained by using multiple cleats (one above the other). Load sharing is questionable, a single cleat, properly anchored to the wall is not going to fail in typical use (several hundred pounds). If, however, you're going to store anvils in the cabinet, more is certainly better.


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## boatz

I posted my French cleat wall here on Lumberjocks. 
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/169234
I used 1/2" birch plywood from the Borg. I cut them down to 4'x4' sheets to make them manageable. The cleats are 3/4" poplar that are glued and screwed to the panels. The boards are mounted to studs wit 2 1/2" Spax screws. The whole system works great


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## Rob_s

> Realizing this is a relatively old thread…
> 
> Wouldn t it be possible to get the load on more than one cleat by hanging the two cleats on the wall, then setting the other half of each cleat in the groove, then attaching your item to both cleats?
> 
> I understand that as things swell and contract they may bear on different surfaces at different times, but for the most part wouldn t they be bearing on both (or all if more than two are used) the cleats at the same time?
> 
> - Rob_s
> 
> Sure you can do that. May or may not be necessary. Anytime you have multiple mounting points, where either one could theoretically carry the whole load (I.E., one cleat above another), there s no sure way to make them share the load.
> 
> What tends to happen, when you have an indeterminate load, is the one that carries more load will give a little transferring load to the other. This of course assumes the mounts are close. I.E. one cleat isn t so far off that it can t possibly carry load.
> 
> Keep in mind that you can measure everything perfectly and they still won t share load well. The reason is the walls are seldom flat. So the wall cleat bows a little. Because of the 45 degree cut, this can make the cabinet cleat ride higher or lower. So even with a single cleat, the wall and cabinet cleats may only touch in a few places. This isn t a problem as both cleats are typically more than strong enough to transfer these points loads across the cleat to either the wall mount or the cabinet mount, depending on which cleat where considering.
> 
> In general, I don t think there is anything really gained by using multiple cleats (one above the other). Load sharing is questionable, a single cleat, properly anchored to the wall is not going to fail in typical use (several hundred pounds). If, however, you re going to store anvils in the cabinet, more is certainly better.
> 
> - clin


My shop is all block walls. What I want, or think I want, right now is plywood on several sections of wall to use as a tool wall in lieu of slatwall or pegboard or the like. But, if I don't like the plywood I don't want to have chipped the wall all up and then go back and do it another way.

My thought was to attach some cleats at 12" centers, drop in the opposite cleat, and then screw the plywood to that new top cleat. That way if I don't like the plywood I can remove it and do something else. Plus, any areas that don't get plywood right away could be utilized in the standard french cleat manner.

I'm really trying to come up with a sub-strate mounting system that won't have me hammer-drilling the bejezus out of my block walls.


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## Cooler

If you make the horizontal slats equidistant apart and you cut the 45 degree angle on both the top and bottom of each cleat you can make cam shaped discs and you can lock things in place by turning the cam.

The only hard part is shaping the cam to the right shape. Once you have the right shape it is easy.


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## Rob_s

That's an interesting idea re the cams

This is kind of that I had in mind. 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154494323963890


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## welcon

I like to build cabinet carcasses with 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood, and hang most of them on a french cleat system.


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