# American Made vs. Cheaper Imports- what to do...



## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

(Edit) I wrote this thread a long time ago to gauge woodworkers' feelings on buying American made tools vs. foreign made. It ran its course, became a little more political than I would have liked, and died. Over a thousand days later it came back to life. So I am pulling out. Not because I disagree with your right to talk politics all you want, but because I don't like to get involved in it personally. So feel free to carry on the conversation with each other, I am just withdrawing myself. Thanks!


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## Jeff28078 (Aug 27, 2009)

My first objectrive is not where it's made. I look for the quality of the tool then buy the best I can afford plus a little. (But sometimes plus a lot).


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

If all you bought were new tools made in America you would not have many tools in your shop. I'm sure there are more, but the only true "made in America" tool brands I can think of are Lie-Nielsen and Bridge City. The cheaper tools are made in Asia and the high quality tools are made in Europe or Canada.

I regret this and I wish I could be more supportive of American manufacturing but what is one to do when the products don't exist?


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

If we all bought American Made, Harbor Freight would go out of business! What would they do with all that plastic?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Just as the Japanese of the post WWII era, China is/was/still busy building its manufacturing infrastructure. During the early stages vast amounts of junk are created and the rest of the world gasps and jests about just HOW junky every product is.

Consider this:
1. China factories still expand while unloading junk on the world
2. China workers are still employed and being paid (though poorly at the moment)

AFTER China's infrastructure is in place:
1. China works on improving quality (think American Deming working with Japan after WWII)
2. Quality improves followed by world domination of manufacturing

You can thank the American capitalists (as well as some other countries) who outsourced as many jobs as possible to China trying to make a quick buck. It is going to or actually IS biting America in the sphincter and I don't think the CURRENT crop of American capitalists care or will do anything but speed up this transfer of manufacturing superiority to China.

My 2-cents… unfortunately.


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## cornflake (Jan 13, 2011)

i think richgreer is right trying to buy and american made tool is like trying to buy and american made electronics.


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## ellen35 (Jan 1, 2009)

This is always an interesting discussion….
This site is a worldwide site. We never know what people buy and where they come from.
I often wonder what any of our Asian LJ woodworkers think about this kind of discussion!
Not saying that anyone is right or wrong… just that I am wondering!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike- Your points are well taken. But I also find that we have Walmarts full of cheap imports from China for one reason- Americans DEMAND cheap stuff. The Chinese can make good stuff if we'd buy it. They are just as smart and capable as we are! But Walmart tells them what we want and how much we will pay for it, and they make the crap accordingly.

Sadly the American employeer/union relationship, which used to be all about forcing employeers to give workers decent wages and safe working conditions, has grown out of control and now a lot of American products are so expensive because the workers get paid $40 an hour and a lifetime of expensive benefits. I had some company uniforms made once. An american made polo shirt cost $40 each. The import of the same quality was $15. That's why we import so much stuff, and that's why I will have to buy imports rather than American products. It's all I can afford!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

ellen35- I don't think a Chinese (or any other nationality) LJ should take offense at this discussion. We get junk from them because we demand junk. If we would buy quality products, they'd make those instead. I think too many people assume the Chinese live in a society that only values junk. That's not true. They just know Americans value junk!


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm sure this post will generate a lot of discussion.

The bottom line, IMO, like it or not, is that we are moving towards a global economy. China is becoming more competitive in terms of quality, and will continue to do so. But as their economy grows and their middle class grows, their labor costs will slowly rise over time. In the short term, American workers will have to work for somewhat less if their companies want to compete.

What I'm saying is that, sooner or later, national economies throughout the world will begin to look more and more alike. For some, it will be a step up… for others, a step down. Economic isolationism is a thing of the past, and it's not coming back. For that reason, "buying American" just for the sake of keeping the dollars in our own economy is a doomed strategy. I believe you are only hurting your own wallet.

My solution is the same as Jeff's…. When I buy a tool I try to assess its quality, and buy the best I can afford (or at least the best I am willing to pay for) regardless of where it is made.


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree with Mike's post and remember growing up seeing it change from one country to another. Since you brought up Wal-Mart Here's some more on Wal-Mart and how their way of doing business as well as other companies have hurt the American economy. While this Clip is on Wal-Mart other companies are just as guilty.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/
So in as much as we are limited in our selection of origin of manufacture. I judge tools on their own quality rather than origin of manufacture according to my income.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I am at work where we build American products, (assembling outsourced sub-assemblies). I don't like what 
corporate America has done to our job market either. I do think that the choices we make as consumers is a big reason for the cheapness of our products. But the reason I am posting here is to relay a personal story.
We had a Chinese(Mainland) exchange student who lived with us for a while. Her English was impeccable, her main goal was to do good in school so that she could move to America one day. She meant the US of coarse. The funny thing was that when we took her shopping she would complain about the poor quality of the textiles in our stores. She would get even angrier still, when she found the Made in China label on the shirt she just complained about.


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## tyskkvinna (Mar 23, 2010)

The reason why this discussion bites is because, as Ellen said, we have LJ'ers from all over the world. I'm not from Michigan myself, though I've lived here for quite some time. There's more choices in the world than just the US or China. What about Canadian jobs? I bet if you buy dimensional lumber you support a fair amount of them….

we've got a pretty fantastic world around us, and I like to support all of it. I choose based on quality, my needs and my budget. Wherever the three line is up what I buy. I don't care if it is US or China or New Zealand or Morocco.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Jim…take it from me as somebody who has always owned both "real" $40 Polos and "fake" $15 polos…they are NOT the same quality.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim Hamilton SAID:
"Sadly the American employeer/union relationship, which used to be all about forcing employeers to give workers decent wages and safe working conditions, has grown out of control and now a lot of American products are so expensive because the workers get paid $40 an hour and a lifetime of expensive benefits. "

Please check your facts Jim. Current union membership, as a percentage, is just 11.9% of the total American workforce. To put this in perspective, the last time union membership in the USA was ever below 13% was in the year 1936.

With unemployment remaining high and ascendant right-wing Republicans-joined by far too many Democrats-now attacking organized labor's main strongholds among public employees, the prospects are not bright for 2011 either.

Read the article in the attached link and you may realize that you have been misinformed by the massive amounts of politically based media sound-bytes.


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

One world economy, next step; one world government. It's coming whether we like it or not.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike- I don't dispute your figures. But the fact remains that if it is a union made product, it is an expensive product. I am all for a worker getting the highest salary and most benefits he can get. But it has reached a point that the prices of the products they make are so high that a lot of people won't buy them anymore. And if the products are priced out of the market, the sales drop and the jobs go somewhere else where wages are lower. That's why union membership has dropped so much. Employeers can't afford the workers salary demands. The public sector is a great example. Out of control pensions for public union workers have gone a long way toward bankrupting several states. Now those states are forced to outsource those jobs to private companies and those union jobs are going to disappear.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim, 
The prices seem too high BECAUSE the real wages of USA workers has been driven into the dirt. The wage disparity in America has become greater than at ANY time in history . When a worker cannot afford the product they and others like them make, it is NOT THEIR fault. It is the fault of the top 1% or 2%'ers that have enriched themselves.

Just eliminate unions altogether and see where wages go. I bet it won't be up (at all!)...


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

When I buy a tool, I don't really give a d*** who made it, or where. Brand loyalty is not my thing, either. A tool simply must do the task for which it was intended, and it must do it well. I will gladly pay the cost for the tool that meets my requirements. 
Neither politics, religion nor compassion enter the equation. Nor do I believe that those who own or will purchase what I make, really care about my politics, religion, or my tool purchase rationale.
BTW, Walmart carries the best double sided tape I have ever used.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike- So you're saying prices on American Made (union made) products are not high, they just seem high because wages are low? I disagree. Union wages are more often than not very much above average, especially when you consider the benefits and pensions. And it's no coincidence that the products they make are very much above average in price to support those salaries.

Again, I am not against Unions. My family (great-grandfather) and his brothers were instramental in founding the Steel Workers union in Detroit back in the 19-teens. But the fact is Americans today demand high wages and when they get them (which is the case in most Union jobs) the products they make become too expensive. That's why so many people have to buy imported tools.

And I fail to see what the "top 1%ers have to do with it. Yes, they enrich themselves. But I never got a job from a poor guy, and if the Union worker is getting paid $40 and hour, who cares what his boss makes.


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## Toolphan (Jan 24, 2011)

I saw a great article on this the other day. This gives some insight on the bigger picture where discount tools come from and how prices may be impacted soon.

Here is the article: Chinese Fiscal Policy and Power Tools

Toolphan


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

While I do agree with Jim that unions have created some of their own problems, Mike is right about wage disparity. It's not just manufacturing of goods, but in any industry you look at… banking, insurance, retail, you name it… the top executives are absolutely raping the rest of us. As long as there is black ink at the end of the year, nobody seems to care that someone is being paid $12 million to do a job that could be done for $100k. The boards of directors let it happen because they're all sucking from the trough as well.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim, I understand you don't believe but facts are facts:










How do you explain that from 1980 to 2005, more than 80 percent of total increase in Americans' income went to the top 1 percent?


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike- I am not disagreeing with those facts. The top wage earners make a LOT of money. But isn't that what they are in business for? And who cares anyway? It would be different if the CEO of GM was making a billion dollars only because he was paying the workers in rice. But that's not the case. The workers get a good, fair wage for what they do and live a quality of life that's the best in the world. If the CEO makes a lot more, so what? Will our lives be any better if we taxed that money away from the CEO and made him make the same as we are?

Toolphan- I enjoyed that article. Thanks!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Toolphan, 
Great link! This is an example of a "post-Deming" QC improvement in the Chinese infrastructure. THEN we all pay more. Just like when Japan got quality under control and excelled in electronics.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim SAID:
"The top wage earners make a LOT of money. But isn't that what they are in business for? And who cares anyway? It would be different if the CEO of GM was making a billion dollars only because he was paying the workers in rice. But that's not the case."

But THAT is the case! And we ARE being paid in "rice"! Maybe it just has not hit home for you just yet, but it IS coming and you will see it shortly.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I guess I don't see Union wages, benefits and pensions as "rice". Everyone I've ever known who works for GM, for example, makes a very good living. Could you please explain?


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

Jim, I understand what you are saying, but the big picture is the* trend*. The middle class is disappearing slowly. Many of those fat union workers are laid off and hurting, but the executives aren't hurting… they just send the work overseas and line their own pockets with the savings. Full time positions are being replaced with part-time jobs. The average worker sees his standard of living going down, while the execs keep getting more and more.

In politics and the economy, the pendulum is always swinging. Here in the U.S. it is currently swinging back towards the days of rich and poor, with not much in between.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Yes, jobs are going overseas. That's exactly my point. American union wages have become so high that those jobs are being outsourced.

And I don't dispute that this is a big problem. I also don't blame the Union workers entirely. I think a large share of the blame is upon the greedy companies, but that's the nature of business. If all of the high paying jobs disappear and everyone has to work at McDonalds, we are in for a rough future. But what can be done about it?


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

I must be dense. 
I see no great relevance to what a union/non union wage is. The company that pays that wage is certainly entitled to pay it. The worker is certainly entitled to accept it or move on. I can buy their products or not. How they pay their workers won't affect my decision.
Nor do I see how private or public corp. decisions regarding executive compensations should impact me and my purchasing decisions. Hey, I watch pro sports. How much the camera man, the broadcaster or the players are compensated does not enhance or diminish my viewing pleasure.
However, if things like that are important to you, don't patronize their products.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Why are you hung up on *"union"* wages Jim? You should be concerned about all the NON-union wages that have been driven down by the assault on unionization in America. Without anyone having/forcing "union" wages there would be NOTHING to stop businesses from cutting American wages in half AGAIN and AGAIN.

Believe it or not, times are worse NOW in this country than when your "great grand-father" felt forced to support forming a union for a fair wage.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Good point Gene. Too often we fall into this class envy. Instead of worrying about improving our own lives we worry about what other people are getting and wish the government would take what they have via taxes and give it to us via entitlements. I could care less if Bill Gates makes a billion dollars a year. He's created a LOT of good paying jobs, payes a HUGH share of the nation's taxes and his product is worth the price I pay. Otherwise I could just go buy a Mac. We all have the choice.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike " times are worse NOW in this country than when your "great grand-father" felt forced to support forming a union for a fair wage"... How so? Wages are higher than they've ever been. Working conditions are the best in the world. That is thanks to unions. But now those same Unions demand more and more and so those jobs are being shipped overseas. The Unions were once a great thing, but now they are part of the problem.

The reason I am so hung up on Unions is because I live in Michigan where the Unions have destroyed our entire state economy. When you demand more and more and more you kill the jobs and that's just what has happened here. Michigan's future is bleak.

Again, I agree that there's a problem. I agree that greed, including corperate greed is the greatest cause of the problem. But I hear no solutions from anyone.


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## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

getting back to the point of what I buy.First i would by American,Canadian,European,then Mexico,then Asia and India.I made my money here I should spend it here on American made.Might not have a choice ,but I try


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Jim,
While labor costs may enter into the equation, there are far more more compelling reason for companies to move from the US. 
To remain a viable business, profit must be utmost. When the time comes when a company's profits are threatened by their other than production costs of doing business in the US, it's time to move. I can't fault them.
I don't fault the consumer's demand for cheap goods. I fault their inattention to the details and ramifications of their political choices.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I admire your attitude, Bill. It's getting harder and harder to do, though. If you can FIND American products they are often too expensive. It's sad, but it's the way it is.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

please remember to keep the discussion woodworking-focused and not head off into the politics. Also, as Ellen pointed out, keep in mind that our members are world-wide.

You know, from past experiences, it is a slippery slope to "getting out of hand".


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Gene- That is another good point. American products are hard to find and expensive to buy for at least three reasons. 1. The wages of the forigen worker are much lower so companies outsource. 2. The regulations in America cause (in not all cases, but a lot) business to be more expensive in America, so companies go where the regulations are less. 3. Companies are only in business to make as much of a profit as they can, where they make their products is not an issue for them.

This is the way of the world, and no political ideology can change that.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Sorry, MsDebbie. We've gotten off topic. But I also think it is nice that a discussion like this, between people with passionate opinions can be done without any arguments. Mike and others made some great points, and while we still disagree, I respect them.

Anyway, I'll take your advise and not comment any further on those issues.


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## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

Jim ,the unions in Michigan are only part of Mich's problem,not the cause.Every union is making concessions to survive.Chrysler just announced giving employees a $750.00 bonus.Not profit sharing because they lost money,a way of saying thanks for all the hard work.My Union health care costs over $10.00 an hour but some people think we don't deserve it,not the best coverage either.Unions have nothing to do with your Government reps from getting ridicules pensions and benefits


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Referring to America Jim said: "Working conditions are the best in the world."

Funny, here are THREE lists of the top-10 most livable cities in the World and NO American city made ANY of the lists:

The world's most livable cities. Livability rankings are designed for use by employers assigning hardship allowances as part of job relocation.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

You all make good points, but I won't comment on them anymore. This isn't my website and the rules are the rules, so I need to follow them. I got off topic, but let's just get back to the question at hand (like MsDebbie told us to). What's the biggest factor in your decision to buy a woodworking tool? Where it's made or how much it costs?


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

With new manufacturing, American Made is simply not an option in most cases. Either the product is simply not available, or it is priced so high that the hobby woodworker has no chance of affording it shy of a very large Lottery jackpot…

That leaves us to lower line tools. And as you say, yes we are in a recession, and household budgets are strained to say the least. To be honest, if it weren't for Harbor Freight, I most likely would not have a shop full of equipment.

So to answer your question, affordability has to be considered, because no matter where it is made, if you can't afford it, you won't be buying it!

Now if the price difference between say a Quality U.S. made tool, and a Quality Chinese made tool were less extreme, and within the range of affordability, then the choice between U.S. and China is a no brainer.


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

I like that this has been a respectful discussion. Mike has backed up his assertions with links that readers of this post can learn from or refute. Thank you Mike. -Jack


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

As I stated before Jim, it's not where it's made or what it costs. It's whether or not it will perform as I need.
If you allow origin or costs alone dictate your choice, you may not find the tool to best suit your need.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks guys, I am signing off on this thread as well. I have enjoyed the mental judo as the weather outside fails to cooperate with my unheated shop…


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

In deference to Ms. Debbie's request, I will make my final comments here, keeping the focus on woodworking.

I have no problem with Bill Gates* building* a fortune through his invention of *Windows*. But in recent years I *saw* lots of information that has led me to believe Americans are being *chiseled* out of their *cut* of the pie through corporate greed. I'm not talking about people who have *built* companies and *created* jobs, but about hired *guns* who come in after the fact and *drive* up short term profits by *cutting* jobs and benefits, while *shaving* billions off the top for themselves.

Please note I have emphasized all woodworking terms for clarity.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Charlie- You forgot "but". It's a type of woodworking joint and you used the term several times without making it bold.

Tsk, tsk, Charlie. Follow the rules properly. Let's get back to wood talk…


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## Alster (Aug 7, 2009)

I have never understood why somebody I don't know in Sheboygan is more deserving of my business than someone I don't know in Shanghai. They both have hopes, dreams, aspirations. They're both human beings. For all we know, the Chinese guy is a genuine nice guy and the guy in Sheboygan is a bastard. Odds are the guy in Shanghai is a lot needier than the guy in Sheboygan.

I refuse to pay more for an American-made product that gives identical service to a foreign product simply so I can put bread on the table of a guy that got lucky enough to be born on this side of the boundary.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

As they say-all too often-in combat ….

*GRENADE !!!!*


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Alster- Sheboygan? Are you a fellow Michiganian? A Yooper?

I agree with your sentiment. We're in a world economy now and my dollars put food on someone else's table, wherever that guy may live. With that in mind I buy the best quality I can afford, and more often than not it's an imported tool. I buy Harbor Freight tools when they are good ones, and name brands when I need something better. Price is ALWAYS an issue!


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## Alster (Aug 7, 2009)

Nope. I'm from Kansas. But Kansans make their living exporting wheat and aircraft to other countries; it seems hypocritical of me to say that they should buy our stuff but we shouldn't buy theirs.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sounds right to me, Alster.


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## marker (Oct 14, 2010)

I think I know that guy from Sheboygan, but I won't mention his name.


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## Raymond (Mar 12, 2008)

I wont post much on this, I will say I have tools from all over the place. I agree we should buy American made when we can, but when a lable says Jet or Delta and it comes off the same line in China as an HF tool and the HF tool is 1/4 the price. It makes no sence to go with the Brand Name.


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## meestajack (Feb 1, 2011)

I try to buy the best quality tools I can afford, and I'd rather buy an old solid American made tool than a new one made in China. Secondly, I support independent businesses and buy local products whenever there is the option and budget allows.

I've become a bit of a vintage Stanley tool collector as a result, and I'd say 75% of my woodworking tools are fleamarket/thrift/garagesale finds at this point.

looking forward to the day I can buy new tools that were made here in America, but until then I'll keep digging around for the old rusty stuff.


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## tinnman65 (Jan 19, 2009)

I would gladly pay three times as much for an USA made tool of the same quality over a Chinese tool. The problem is you can only pay three times as much for an "USA company" selling a Chinese, Mexican, or Taiwan tool. No offense to our none American friends just a little American Pride.


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## Crushgroovin (May 24, 2010)

Sadly the truth of the matter is that American's today are unwilling to do millions of jobs that are considered Menial. How many millions of Americans are on unemployment while millions of "foreigners" work at McDonald's or elsewhere? But we have bred generations of American's who believe the country owes them a quality middle class job. If not they just go on welfare or unemployment.

Seriously what would it cost to make a quality Table Saw in America? Look at the Unisaw from Delta! Delta is doing so well that they were sold to foreign owners. If there were thousand foundries and factories in America who wold work at them at a wage that would allow for a reasonably priced product? The same guys that build our homes, mow our lawns, and make our food.

My wife is in culinary school and it is part of the curriculum to take Spanish because it is the language of the food service industry. That is just the facts. These aren't a bunch of illegal undocumented workers either. But they are the only ones who will wash the dishes and clean the floors and be grateful to have a job at the end of the day.

I worked my way up from the bottom of the wireless industry. I am not that smart, I don't have a college degree or come from a rich back ground. But I worked my but off in every single job I had and that made me stand out. I remember my first real corporate job in 1994 working in a call center. I made $40,000 that year and was as grateful as I could be. But I worked with hundreds of people that did the exact same as I did and the majority were miserable & ungrateful. I came to work early and left late, I followed the rules and treated people as I wanted to be treated. I was singled out and promoted not because of how great I was but because of how poor my competition was. Hell that job still exists and people still complain about making $50k a year with great benefits. Well benefits use to be great until some idiot unionized the damn place. Really that is what happened to the wireless customer service industry, went from making 3-4 times minimum wage with full medical, dental, and the works to less pay and worse benefits as soon as the union took over. Morons didn't understand that once the union was in place the company saw the workers as an adversary.

But as my dad used to say "Look at how pathetic your competition is, you are going to be very successful in your career. Now today when you are out and about running errands take a look at the person helping you. How many are all tattooed looking like they just rolled out of bed? How many are visibly disgusted at being forced to do such a low level job? Or try this, ask you teen age neighbor to mow your lawn for $20 per week, see how long he lasts.

There is a reason they call us "Lazy Americans" and we have earned that tag. Buy American? Yeah right, I am well aware of what this country has become. Our President just got elected by promising Something for Nothing! You know SOMEONE has to pay for all that FREE Health Care he wants to give out! Last I checked the docs aren't gonna work for free and the drug companies aren't going to give pills out for free!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Crushgroovin SAID:
"There is a reason they call us "Lazy Americans" and we have earned that tag."

I really wanted to quit paying attention to this thread BUT!

Since 1979, productivity rose 67 percent, while wages rose only 8.9 percent.

Please get your facts straight.

MsDebbie, time to pull the plug (though I hope we will be able to read it in archives)


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Mike- I started this thread, we got off course a bit and retunred to woodworking talk. ONE guy posts something you don't agree with after we'd redirected things and you ask for the moderater to "pull the plug" on my thread? That isn't fair to the rest of us. Just ask Chrush to stick to woodwork talk and let it be…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

You're kiddin' right?


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Crushgroovin SAID:
"...we have bred generations of American's who believe the country owes them…"

"Hell that job still exists…"

"... some idiot unionized the damn place."

"Morons didn't understand that once the union…"

"they call us "Lazy Americans" and we have earned that tag"

"Our President just got elected by promising Something for Nothing!"

AND FINALLY: "I am not that smart"

AS FOR ME, NO COMMENT.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I can see the potential of this discussion taking the wrong direction.

*Posting Rule: Postings are to be woodworking related*

please do your part to keep this discussion on track.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

The issue isn't weather you agree with Chrush. The point is we don't talk politics here. We talk wood. Those are the rules and since I am a guest here on LJ's, I am determined to follow them. So I am going to ignore Crush and move on…


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I look at the actual facts of life in the USA. FORD is assembled in the U.S. Toyota is built in the U.S. While agood percentage of the profit from a new ford goes into the pockets of american investers, the rest along with most all of the manufacturing costs go to other countries. The profit on a new toyota is much less than that of a new ford, because americans are working at good wages and benefits to make all thee pieces and build those cars. most of those profits may go overseas, but some stays here with american stockholders. Overall, Toyota is doing a better job of keeping america alive than ford is. FACT! sorry about typing, had surgery and typing left finger only.LOL


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

MsDebbie- perhaps this thread is played out anyway. If you want to remove it you won't get any protest from me, I suppose.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Let us all take a moment of silence to thank that great american company Black and Decker for all they have done to preserve the American way of life!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

As far as woodworking tools go, Black & Decker is a real puzzle to me. In my grandfather's days if you wanted a good tool like a power drill, you bought a Black & Decker. Now days most of their tools are lower quality, and some of them are absolute junk. There's a B&D outlet near me and you should see some of the trash. It's a shame that such a great brand has destroyed itself by putting their name on cheap tools. They should have used another name for their low end stuff. But they destroyed their name and now have to use Dewalt for their quality products.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

My dear Jim, please wake up to this century. B&D is the single largest cause of all tool company problems. they now own all the major brands and they are the ones thaat closed the american factories and moved all manufacturing to China. B&D, dewalt, PC, delta, bosch,V.A. 10 ears ago I started getting into woodworking. Most of my tools were old Crafstman and worn out. I bought a bunch of new tools that were near top of the line. I bought Porter Cable saws and sanders and drills and router . They were all made in Tennessee and they all still work perfectly. A few years ago I needed a new router for a table I built. Bought a PC 7518, foun d out it was made in china because B&D bought them and closed the factory in Tenn.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

It's all about the money. The South has had the textile and clothing industry go down the tube because stuff made in foreign countries came into the US and people bought it because it was cheaper. In order to stay in business, American companies went overseas. Tennessee had at least three Levi's plants. They were shut down and production moved overseas. I appreciate all the responses, facts, graphs, etc. but reality is reality. It has been said that China's economy revolves around…........Walmart! Walmart says they buy American. One company furnished WM with men's sweaters at a reasonable price. When the contract was up for renewal, Walmart moved to an Asian supplier so WM could save 7 cents a sweater. Look at WM the next time you are there and see how many US products are there.
Edit: Just a thought- Dalton/Chatsworth, Georgia is still the leading manufacturer of carpet in the world. 80% of the world's carpet is made in this area of north Georgia.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

My Porter Cable router may not be made in Tennessee, but it's a nice router just the same. Price and quality are still my top considerations when buying woodworking tools- in that order.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Does Walmart sell woodworking tools?


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## ArtistryinWood (Apr 21, 2008)

Yup, Black and Decker.

Andrew


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

QVC & HSN both sell 90% China 10% other countries…


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## woodworksbyjohn (Jan 11, 2011)

I know this may not be 100% accurate but since most of the stuff we use seems to be imported anyway I've gone down to the local level. Rather than buy it online where it is generally less expensive it's my goal to buy what I need, when I can, from the locally owned stores. I carry this to excluding the so called "big box" stores as well. Back in the 60's I worked in a mom & pop type of lumber yard which is now closed but this is when the "big box" stores first came on the scene. My boss stressed that we sell service because that's one thing the bigger places lacked-and still do for the most part! That's my 2 cents!


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Hello Miss Debbie, we don't need private messaging. I have not slandered or attacked anyone here. the discussion is about american made and so are my comments. Thanks, Dan


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## RiverWood (Nov 4, 2010)

Jim you will never win with the pro union socialist people. Best to just leave it alone. Anyone that is pro labor supports the owner of a company not the six figure union boss. I prefer to support the worker who supports the company who pays him, not the thug who tries to intimidate his boss.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

IMO outsourcing of jobs can't be blamed on unions/non-unions. Rather it is evolution. As a nation becomes more affluent and there are economies less so, blue-collar jobs are going to move if shipping costs etc. allow it. And it doesn't really help the US to have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (#2 behind Japan I think). For those of you wanting to scream "corporate welfare", post back and I'll expand on why you might be wrong.

Evolution being what it is, the US has been moving more and more to a "service-based" economy. Predictable I guess if you research how much manufacturing occurs in the United Kingdom or Japan (not much).


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

John, it s just too bad the local mom and pop shops are selling junk like B&D. You can't go to them for higher quality tools. B&D or Skil is it. At least that is the situation here.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

papadan

I agree with you entirely…there are a few of us that would be willing to pay a premium for quality.

I have mostly older Delta/Porter Cable/Dewalt machines in my shop made in the USA. There is a big difference from what I see they sell now. And I'll add that we have been building a house and I can't even estimate the number of China parts that got discarded (gas pipe fittings, plumbing fittings, etc.) because they were junk.

Unfortunately we are in the minority and the production costs to accomodate our group would make you scream. Is what it is I guess…China will come around (remember the old "made in Japan" label that used to mean "junk")? It wasn't that long ago but is no longer true.


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## MikeGager (Jun 15, 2009)

i only buy tools that are made in Liechtenstein


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

ok…I just read the message from Debbie…she is 100% correct. This thread may have started out somewhat related to LJ but it seems to have turned into a Yahoo message board totally unrelated to LJ.

nice to see a moderated board! thanks Debbie!


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

B&D, Skil & ryobi here…


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

teejk SAID:
the US to have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (#2 behind Japan I think).

US Corporate Tax Rate Is *Lowest* Among Leading Nations

Between 2000 and 2005, U.S. corporate taxes amounted to 2.2% of the GDP. The average for the 30 mostly rich member countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development was 3.4%._


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

Big Bucks, Big Bucks…


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## RiverWood (Nov 4, 2010)

Japan has recently cut their corporate tax rate making the USA the highest among those countries. But what most people fail to acknowledge is that companies pay no taxes, they merely collect them for the government by passing them on to the consumers.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)




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## woodworksbyjohn (Jan 11, 2011)

This is getting awfully long but one last thing from my perspective. It all relates to greed and profit. I had always wanted to buy the Hitachi 8.5 inch slider because it was the first and best. When I was finally in the position to buy it I had one of the first, 25th. Anniversary models with the laser--pure junk. In for repairs 3 times, then Hitachi replaced it under warranty, that one crapped out and was Craiglisted out of my hair. Why was this one junk when it's predecessors were tops? Hitachi decided to cut costs and instead of building them in Japan outsourced them to China and its' cheaper labor. Bottom line is GREED!


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## truenorth (Nov 21, 2013)

I live in Canada and find this discussion very interesting! I'm usually of the mind set -"you get what you pay for" although when you work for yourself and your starting out a custom dining table buisness it takes good wisdom to know what to buy and when you buy it. I will say buying used higher quality tools on Craigslist has been a huge help over buying newer cheaper/ junkier tools. It does take some discipline though as the new stuff is so shiney haha. Not sure if this is happening everywhere but where I live alot of people are buying new smaller housing (townhomes and small lot single family homes (no property/ no woodshop) so there are a lot of used "domestic" american/ canadian tools up for sale as it seems the number of north american fathers have shops with a full set of tools. Most I know have a mitre saw, circular saw, set of drills! There are at least 30 radial arm saws for sale from guys who are now retired and moving into town homes….good quality saws for like $50! Anyway long story short there is quite a bit of selection for older quality tools if you can get over the "new" factor!! I like the older stuff usually anyway. I feel it was build better- heavier anyway!


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## woodworksbyjohn (Jan 11, 2011)

Truenorth, you're spot on with the older stuff being better quality so well worth buying. I had a Craftsman, 10" contractor style tablesaw that I bought in the mid-70's. After several houses, lots of furniture, and other things sold it for what I bought it for in 2000! Finally upgraded to a 220v cabinet saw but once on Craigslist the saw sold immediately, no haggling. I kept the owners manual and receipt so know the price paid.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Late to the party here….

Haven't read the entire thread, but if I were "king" I'd very quickly go back to a protectionist trade policy. The first time I heard the mantra that the "global economy was innevitable" I thought it sounded like indoctrination to me.

Mike made this statement…..

*You can thank the American capitalists (as well as some other countries) who outsourced as many jobs as possible to China trying to make a quick buck.*

and I totally agree… but please make sure not to paint this into a Red/Blue thing, as BOTH Democrats and Republicans play the same game (case in point, China was granted most favored nation trade status and NAFTA was signed into law under Clinton).

The one who clearly saw the writing on the wall was Ross Perot, and history has proven him to be spot on. I also thing Ralph Nador smelled a skunk as well…(but I'm not as familiar with him since he branched out beyond consumer protection.).... and isn't it funny that both of these guys were demonized and marginalized by their respective political parties!

But the "greedy" capitalist are not IMO the only ones to blame…. I think the "greedy" American consumer is just as culpable. We wanted low cost TVs, VCRs, game consols, clothes and everything else. So the American consumer created the Asian industrial base with their own choices. Buy American really did mean something back in 1976! And the American consumer chose low price imports. I remember when the first Japanese imports were a joke. But with Demings help, their inudustral capability to make world class quality products was quickly achieved. My own dad was "true blue" (Stumpy might know that term) and always purchased GM products. But then he bought his first Honda and never went back.

Was it greedy capitalist managers at GM determined to maximize profit and not concerned about quality products…. you bet.

But have you ever been advised to never buy a car that had a DOM of Monday or Friday? Ya… it was very true… And when the corporations stopped making big profits and were fighting for their lives, was the UAW jumping up and down to help solve the problems? Or to curtail rising labor costs? Not that I ever saw. (yah, I'm from Michigan too, worked in factories making oil pumps to put myself through school, had an uncle who was a GM exec. and lot's of cousins startign at $20/hour in GM plants (in the 80s!)

So is greedy capitalism the problem…. yes…. but I think the emphisis should be on the greedy part, and union labor and American consumers are IMO, not instilled automatically with great virtue….. nope… they're greedy too.

How about those socialist countries…. how are they doing? Can you name one that's better off than the US?

But b4 you answer…. keep in mind that China is a far cry from socilaist (Chairman Mao must be spinning in his grave). They have long been a state controlled capitalist country. And the US (both blues and reds) are guilty of beeing played like a fiddle, as the Chinese artificially held down their currency value and gave themselves a huge advantage. But their day is coming…. I've read that their debt (though a highly secretive subject) is actually much larger than the US, as they attempt to make hay in the sun and build, build, build. But they're not the low cost rice eaters they once were… and now manufacturing capacity is going to even poorer countries.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

a Black & Decker annecdote….

Early in my navy days, a classmate of mine was from CT and his was a product engineer at B&D. He was canned a year b4 retirement and lost 100% of his pension. This was in the late 80's

Whatever the transition was at B&D, they screwed their own people big time.


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

This thread died a nice silent death almost three years ago because Ms. Debbie pointed out that it has nothing to do with woodworking, and certainly not with power tools. If we're going to start back up with this overdone xenophobic, political bull pucky then at least take it to the lounge and slap a big OT in the title so those of us who aren't into animal abuse don't have to see it pop up every time we look at the list of new posts. 
That's right, I said animal abuse:









Now *GET OFF MY LAWN!*


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

It WAS intended to be about power tools. It's been so long since I posted it that I got a message last night that someone had commented and I thought "what thread is this and why did I put it on my watch list?" Then I saw it was mine!

I just moved it to the coffee lounge so JustJoe doesn't have a conniption.


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

Too late stumpy. I was foaming at the mouth, flopping around on the kitchen floor like a trout out of water. But now I've calmed down and I'm plotting revenge. I don't know what it will be, but you can bet your a$$ it will involve lasers.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

WTF happened to my home away from home????

Leave for a day, a bunch of strangers hijack the place?

Tain't right, I tell ya

WHO were those "people" that almost brought down this house? Was it done on purpose?

BTW: My power tools come mainly from the 60s B&D lines. Hand tools are of an older era.

Now, anyone make a cutting board they'd like to show off???


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## truenorth (Nov 21, 2013)

This is and was about power tools (all tools have a lower cost counter parts being made somewhere else) I posted because as a younger guy (28 haha) I'm getting into woodworking (ok 10 years ago- but more serious in the last 3 years as I have started my table/ furniture buisness since) I think everyone would have to to admit we aren't expecting Obama or Harper (our guy in Canada) to read this post and make a change. Its just interesting to get some insight to mind out where the tools with the most "value" are. I think most would have to agree America and Canada used to be mojor contenders in this. Where as now….not so much. I also think its worth taking a step back and thinking….him if I buy this cheap tool is there a cost beyond having it break 2 weeks from now? I think its fair that this turned into "that" conversation! I think people need to think about what they spend there money on as it is more powerful a vote than federal vote. This relates to tools because when only buys a cheap tool made anywhere where there aren't the same labour laws/ workers aren't taken care of/ worker safety your voting that a lower priced tool is more important. 
Sorry you'll have to forgive my writing. It is not my strong suit! Im a better verbal communicater.


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## truenorth (Nov 21, 2013)

Oh crap it was me…"the Canadian" who saw the post and wrote on it again….I guess effectively stirring the pot. I was honestly curious to see whether people thought canadian or american tools where worth buying?


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

They are - IF they can compete with the quality and price of what is already available. And that includes China and India (for now). Worldwide capitalism! Remember, we taught it to the world and even financed most of it (i.e. the Marshall plan and the rebuilding of Japan after WW-2).

Planeman


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

Your home away from home is safe, Bandaid. Your friends are still here.

This is an old thread, not the regular Stumpy thread.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sabresaws: I have both that ugly green that B&D put out, and a Chrome, all metal one from B&D.

Circular saws: have both a Sears all metal 7-1/4" one, and a SKIL Home shop, all metal 6-1/2" one.

Planes: All but two are "Made inUSA" the other two being overseas imports. Out of 22 total.

Handsaws: Almost all Disstons.

Mechanic's tools: Older Craftsman, OLD PROTO, and Older S&K, mostly inherited. Some other tools for the toolbox at work, but they are on the cheap side, just it case they grow legs.

Tablesaw was made for Craftsman by Emerson.

Now, what was the arguement about, again???


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Stumpy: Yep, not enough Mountain Dew in the system, yet. Saw the Stumpy icon and clicked on it. Next time, will read a bit closer..


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I know, whenever anyone sees my chubby little face they get so excited they forget where they are. Happens all the time! I just didn't want you to think your buddies had all abandoned you. Rex is back!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

You know, I don't give a hoot where my tools are made, or who made them. 
As long as they admirably perform the function for which they were purchased and remain operable for a decent length of time (years and years), I'm a happy camper.

I have the same philosophy about vehicles, as well. Though our last several vehicles have all been Fords. But we've owned Chevys, Dodges, Hondas, Toyotas, Datsuns, one Jag, and a couple MGs. 
Wish I had the Jag and the MGs back! Don't like tinkering with my tools, but I loved tinkering with those British cars. I think they were made to tinker with.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

Holy thread necromancy BatMan….

I am thus reminded why I avoid the lounge….. I'm one of those guys who finds arguing politics much akin to smokin' crack….

Time to calm down and drift back over to the Light Side of the galaxy (were I thought I was when that 'crazy Canadian guy' enticed me back into the Dark Side :^o)


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Most of my hand power tools are older ~10-15yr old Milwaukee, Porter Cable, Bosch, some DeWalt and a few Makitas. The bigger stuff from Delta, JET, Rockwell, Crescent, Craftsman and Grizzly. I seek deals, preferably something that has been neglected and needs work to get it back to where I need it to be, to do what I need done. Most recently I needed a needle scaler and after seeing prices close to $200 for an Ingersoll or Chicago Pneumatic, I went to Harbor Freight and picked up a mini scaler for less than $30. It's a matter of what the tool is going to be used for, this will last me the rest of my life even if it fails after only 10hrs. If I was using one for a few hours every day as a function of my job, I would have bought better. Quality isn't a function of where something is made, but rather for the demand of that something. Any country can produce quality or crap, but you'd better know what the market will support before making anything otherwise you'll be gone, along with a lot of investor money very, very quickly!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Ya know Matt, with the proper visual aids, you can find your way around the dark side. At least well enough to avoid the Zombies and muttonheaded twits, kooks and morons.


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## kimosawboy (Apr 7, 2010)

So if I live in Germany and import a crappy US tool, would that be considered a cheap import??


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## truenorth (Nov 21, 2013)

M Matt….I hear ya! I have a couple friends I grew up with who when we hang out almost always discuss the heavy stuff with I.e. politics and religion! .....they are the most luring of conversation. Although on lookers are always very nervous because thry thing a fight it about to break out…haha. ..which it isn't we respect each other very much there isnt alot of heavy discussion now a days thats.
Anyway I have really enjoyed hearing peoples comments and have learned many things! I am glad there are manufacturers (local and global) who are making quality tools. It does seem the divide is larger in more recent years. What I mean is you can either buy the 800 dollar tool-quality tool or the $39 cheapo….am I crazy?


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

I don't buy into the 'its the evil rich peoples fault' talking points, its utter nonsense. How many government regulations are there now driving manufacturing out of our country? How many government agencies (city, county, state, federal) have their vamp fangs sunk into manufacturing to fund their bloated public spending? How many able bodied Americans are sitting around on their butts sponging off the rest of us while 10's of millions of illegals do jobs they could be doing?

Yes the fact that a Chinese worker will do a job for less than an American worker is a factor but our government spending, borrowing, debt, over regulation, stupidity of not taking advantage of our natural resources, and our own purchasing choices are no less a factor.


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## truenorth (Nov 21, 2013)

It just got heavy!


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## RolfBe (Jun 7, 2013)

Hawk Scroll saws are made In the good old USA.


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

By the way I do try to buy Made in America…










FAIL!


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Darthford, Re: your post #109.
Well said, my friend!


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## bbc557ci (Sep 20, 2012)

Darthford, Re: your post #109.
Well said, my friend!

I agree


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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

Thanks Gene. My brother is a great example, he started a manufacturing business in Oregon. Kept it alive for 15 years manufacturing components for motorcycle suspensions. He owned 3 CNC machines, 2 lathes and 1 mill. He had paid off the less expensive Haas lathe and the Haas mill and financed the big Mori lathe it was $250k. He had a couple employees which he had kept working and earning a paycheck through the recession plus all his suppliers e.g. raw materials, tooling, leasing the shop building etc. his business had a positive economic foot print.

Well things did slow down late into the recession, people were buying fewer motorcycles and road racing was on the decline. Still he was making a go of it, barely. Then the county came calling, they invented a business property tax that applies to everything the business owns, office chair, desk, and in his case these three CNC machines so you are talking about $500k of property they were taxing. With the taxes he was already paying and the cost of his employees and the economy he was already right on the edge. His employees were taking home more than he was.

Well this business property tax was the last straw. He said he was paying the government more money than himself at that point. He called his congressman who called and spoke with the county on his behalf. The congressman said look we need manufacturing jobs like this, it doesn't make sense to tax this guy out of business then you will get nothing. The county said screw him pay us. So fine he paid the county then let the employees go, liquidated the business, purchased a used CNC lathe and next Monday is hauling it up to Canada to throw in with a business owner up there who's manufacturing equipment for the oil industry. He is utterly disgusted with the US right now.

So there you have it, THAT'S how you lose manufacturing jobs. Here's the irony, the state contacted him a couple weeks ago threatening to levy fines and whatever because he had not paid his employee payroll taxes, how sweet it was to tell them they would get nothing from here on out, $0.00.


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## Magnum (Feb 5, 2010)




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## darthford (Feb 17, 2013)

Headline news this morning, government issued 3,700 new regulations this year Merry Christmas. Its projected to cost business nearly $2 trillion to comply with them. Lets see $2 trillion wasted, that's enough to hire 26 million people and pay them $75,000 a year. 26 million high paying jobs…or 3,700 new government regulations.


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