# Sherwin Williams Conversion Varnish ... Issues



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I have now tried to use the SW conversion Varnish 3 times. Actually I have had other's who tried it and all have had the same issue as I did. It has a re-coat window of unknown time length, meaning it will lift. Which looks like a curdled up prune and the finish separates from the surface. Their data sheets do not address this in any way , but It has never failed.We have tried to do 3 coats in one day , wait 24 hours between, 8 hours , and 48 hours, irrespective it will lift in spots. In all cases we have had to strip and use another finish

I now have 2 9' x 6' sections of a conference table we wil have to strip and start over, the guy has already stripped it 2 x times and tried to get it, he brought it to me to spray a final coat, it had set for over 48 hours, one coat and it lifted.

In My professional opinion, the product should be avoided .I will also state we had the SW rep out, and what we got was an amazing song and dance. They had no clue and offered no assistance.

Not a rant .. just a heads up .


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

What a pain having to strip off new finish by no falt of your own.Thanks for the heads-up Charles,if you can't make it work it can't be a good product.It's ashamed a company like Sherwin Williams has a product out there like this.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Well they sure have my attention, same thing with Gemini, used to use their products all the time, no issue, but not any more, its the conversion varnishes . I suspect they have been reformulated due to VOC regs.


----------



## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Wait . . . Charles, you're supposed to post the fix when other people say that can't get a finish to work.

I'm so confused.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Charles , YOUR confused, how you think I feel .. I have tried everything in the book, .......Wait, I wrote the book.

Seriously, the products have issues, avoid them, but again, its just the Conversion Varnishes, something has changed.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

That's weird, I used this product on a bar (approx. 3 years ago) and it was fine. Used 3 coats as directed. 
Something must have changed. It's not the first time products have changed. 
Remember when Mar-Lak went to Mac-Laq? (nitrocellulose lacquer) I'm positive they changed it. 
It never was the same.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I agree 3 years ago i never had an issue either ..


> ?


?


> ?


?????


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Here's some photos Charles sent me of what happen.

Here's what it looked like after being shot with the 3rd coat










and 5 minutes later










Then then feathering it out for the repair










Now Charles gets to fix it by spending a day sanding it all off. This all came about trying to do someone a favor.
Charles is always helping folks out I doubt that will change. All this because SW makes a bad product and sells it knowing it has problems.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

heres my deal, I can handle this, but finish manufactures need to be held accountable, and I damn sure will . Had enough , they reformulate products, then when they fail they tell you , especially the hobby folks who really dont know, "its your fault".. That puts me in orbit.

I love to get one their reps in my shop or on the phone, its usually let me get a supervisor to help you,.... never seen one or talked to one. Go figure !


----------



## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

I think you have contamination somewhere, used it two weeks ago and no problems.


----------



## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Mr. Neil is right about that. If that happened to me I'd figure it was a problem on my end, not the product!


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Upinflames I'm sure Charles appreciates your input but in case you're not aware Charles teaches woodworking and finishing and has many videos and has even written a couple books on finishing .










http://www.cn-woodworking.com/


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

up in flames,

Im glad it worked for you I have 2--$150,000 .00 down draft spray booths , with 1 m BTU furnaces, I have medical approved air , contamination , I don't think so. I have had no issues with any other finish. Again Im glad it worked for you . I have a 24×60 dedicated building that is just for finishing.


----------



## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

I couldn't give a rats behind how many books, how expensive your equipment is or how big of a building you have "just for finishing". I do this for a living, not a weekend wannabe, looking at the pictures that another had to post, two or three spots tells me contamination. It DOES NOT have to be in your equipment, low and behold, it could be in the wood…..but, since you two are the "experts" I'll leave it to ya…..hope you figure out how to use the stuff.


----------



## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I would venture to say he isn't a weekend wanna be. Quick being a dick. Edit: someone gets butthurt easily.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

up in flames take a chill ..

I have 3 different folks, me included, who have had the same result , the other 2 are also professionals, 
I only mentioned my facility, to let you know , I cant possibility see any way of a contamination , especially in sporadic locations,.

the other 2 live 125 miles away and 75 miles away, so ya think we all have the same contamination, im sorry but , I have no issues with this problem other than the SW and Gemini conversion varnish.

if it works for you , by all means continue. . Just saying

Oh yea . Google the issue, Im not the only one having the issue, . Just saying .


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

When I saw the one little pic that Jim posted, the first thing I thought that was that maybe the catalyst was old or not thoroughly mixed in. Possibly could be in the material used to thin the varnish. Who knows?

No way to be a backseat analyst without being there to go through all the procedures and seeing it, feeling it.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

guys ..I got it, I think the ultimate question is if its this temperamental is it worth the effort, with the end result unsure.

Look Im not trying to create a ******************** storm, Im just saying I have 3 professional finishers, who have been in the business for years, and we all are having the same issue. If it works for you , so be it .

Iwud4u, I have a shaker and a power mixer, looks like a house mixer , that we use when adding a catalyst, dare say most use a stick,. then we let the finish set for about 30 min so the osmosis integration has time to take place.

Look I used these products for years with no issue, not the case now. suit yourself .

Im gone


----------



## ScottKaye (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm definitely not an expert. but maybe a bad batch?


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

I think your taking my comments wrong. I'm not trying to say your doing anything wrong nor am I doubting what your saying about the other finishers that are having the same problem.
You posted, I replied. 
My first post agreed, the last post was trying to have conversation, suggesting other possible causes. 
I see no reason for you to tell me to suit myself.
I'm sorry I commented at all.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Suit your self= if its working for you , by all means continue,

Sigh !


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Iwud4u, I have a shaker and a power mixer, looks like a house mixer , that we use when adding a catalyst, dare say most use a stick,. then we let the finish set for about 30 min so the osmosis integration has time to take place.
> 
> - CharlesNeil


Wouldn't matter if you had bad catalyst. You could shake or stir till the cows come home.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Suit your self= if its working for you , by all means continue,
> 
> Sigh !
> 
> - CharlesNeil


I got your attitude, I know what you mean.
You could have also said thanks for trying to help.


----------



## ScottKaye (Jan 19, 2013)

no matter if the batch was good or bad, once you have lost faith in a product there is no going back


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Iwud4u,

SO how the hell would I know if I had a bad catalyst , Tell me, because after 40 + years of finishing I don't know.

Better yet how does the newbie , know

is failure the key, is hours and hours of prep, $ spent on dyes/stains and product, only to see it fail the test.

Then what,,,,,, The then what are the emails I get.

nite all


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

We can give our qualified or unqualified guesses all day but some months ago Charles talked to me about a previous batch doing the same thing,this was after the product had been reformulated by SW to conform with to meet VOC standards.Since Charles has 40 years experience finishing , I'll take his guess over anyone else that I know,or don't know.Even the SW rep didn't have a clue.
I guess folks want to help solve the problem,but Charles was trying to give everyone a heads up about the product,not asking what they thought was wrong,since usually people contact Charles for finishing help.

From Charles original post

"I will also state we had the SW rep out, and what we got was an amazing song and dance. They had no clue and offered no assistance."


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> Iwud4u,
> 
> SO how the hell would I know if I had a bad catalyst , Tell me, because after 40 + years of finishing I don t know.
> 
> ...


There is no way you could know. 
Really wish you could lose the attitude, 
I was just trying to be friendly, sorry you couldn't recognize that.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Well said Jim


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> We can give our qualified or unqualified guesses all day but some months ago Charles talked to me about a previous batch doing the same thing,this was after the product had been reformulated by SW to conform with to meet VOC standards.Since Charles has 40 years experience finishing , I ll take his guess over anyone else that I know,or don t know.Even the SW rep didn t have a clue.
> I guess folks want to help solve the problem,but Charles was trying to give everyone a heads up about the product,not asking what they thought was wrong,since usually people contact Charles for finishing help.
> 
> From Charles original post
> ...


I don't think anybody tried to offer solutions until you posted pics of it. Just saying.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

You two are made for each other..lol


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Iwud4uI don't recall addressing any of my post towards you. I was just stating what I saw as the facts.

"Really wish you could lose the attitude, 
I was just trying to be friendly, sorry you couldn't recognize that."


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Iwud4u,

I am sorry, I missed your whole concept, i got a guy , who needs to deliver this conference table by Monday, client is screaming and he needs the $ . Its Saturday night, he brought them to me to help.

They have to be stripped and start over, that's a stretch . SW has failed badly, Its a good thing I have some other finish we can use. I been where he is at, except I didnt have me , he lives 125 miles away. When he get here by 9 am, in the morning , He will be pleasantly surprised. Just me.

Im a bit overwhelmed at the moment, but thats life, it happens


----------



## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

The product worked fine last September and I was pushing the limits hard by testing it on a pew refinish test. It did have the lifting issues described above going over bleached wood but worked perfectly over the unbleached portion of the pew. A week later it passed the scratch/adhesion test on both bleached and unbleached sections.

I'm guessing a batch failure delivered to a regional location. It would explain why there's a rash of complaints from people within driving distance.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Sunday morning 11 am, tops are stripped, and redyed, time to start some top coats, disaster avoided, the guy will make his delivery .


----------



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Lots of hard work on a Sunday morning but we knew you'd get er done. This guy owes you big time )


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Well like a lot of guys, who do this for a living, he needed work, so he priced it way too low. If your a professional I feel sure you know how it goes. I was glad we could help him out . But my old fat [email protected]# is wore out .


----------



## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

Well, Charles, at least you got to see the Vegas night club act from the SW rep. I've seen the act before, generally ends up with the "installer error" finale. Then, of course, out of the goodness of their corporate hearts, they will refund the $50-$80 for the product, and all the labor is yours.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

you got it, Nailbanger2 .. I have seen the same BS from the automotive finishes , and wood as well, Just had enough. I love it when they start throwing all the chemical "jargon" around, problem is today , I know what their talking about, they usually dont, its a memorized spill. If ya start spitting it back, they get red faced and run.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

So let me get this straight so that I can put it in perspective.

You have had issues with this product 3 different times and you have a couple of other professionals that have also had issues with this product.

You have a guy that has to have this table done by Monday. He has already stripped the tables twice, 
because he couldn't get it right and he has to have them finished by Monday, he comes to you for help with the final coat.

*And you still use the same product that you mentioned that yourself, and 2 other professional finishers, have had problems with?*

It's easy to fault the material (which very well may be bad), but there is no doubt who's at fault for using the same product.

I am glad that you were able to correct your mistake in time for your friend to complete the job.

What was the final product you ended up using for the finish? Did you have to strip both tables?


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Not qiite, I had my round with the stuff.
One guy lives about 75 miles north of me , he contacted me because he was trying to finish a counter top. Had the lifting issue , told him to strip it and use a different finish.
2nd guy lives about 125 miles south of me, he was doing the conference table tops , he had the lifting issue, stripped it down . 
Told him as well to use something different. He didnt, he sprayed it again with the conversion varnish
. He called me to say he couls not get it wet in his small shop , ask if he could come spray it at my shop. I agreed. He had 2 costs . It had sat for over 48 hours . He scuff sanded, I shot it with him to get a thin wet cost. We walked away and in 5 min it started lifting in sporadic areas .
today we striped the tops and redid them in A precat. Lacquer, no issues.
trust me I would not use the CV. Ever again. I learned my lesson, now they have. 
Let me qualify, this is not an ideal situation. It's now 7 pm , I am going in at 3 am to scuff sand and do a 3rd and final coat
I have the ability to keep the tops warm , he is picking them up at 3 pm tomorrow, that's really pushing a precat. I told him they really need to sit a few days to dry and off gas. He said he had no choice. I hope they can open some window's.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

"I have 3 different folks, me included, who have had the same result , the other 2 are also professionals,"

"I have now tried to use the SW conversion Varnish 3 times. Actually I have had other's who tried it and all have had the same issue as I did."

"We have tried to do 3 coats in one day , wait 24 hours between, 8 hours , and 48 hours, irrespective it will lift in spots. In all cases we have had to strip and use another finish"

"Im just saying I have 3 professional finishers, who have been in the business for years, and we all are having the same issue. "

Quote from Jim: 
"but some months ago Charles talked to me about a previous batch doing the same thing,"

Sorry if I was mislead, by all of the above quotes I figured you had previous bad experiences with the product.
With all of the previous experiences with it there was bad judgement used no matter how you look at it. 
If it were me in the same situation I wouldn't have done it, especially knowing there was a problem on the first tries. I'm assuming you used the same material that your friend brought, that he used on the first tries?

*For what it's worth, Thanks*, I'm glad you brought it up, 
I will definitely use this information the next time I have some conversion varnish to spray. 
If you hadn't brought it up, I would have never known.

I will now bow out before your chihuahua comes and bites my ankles.


----------



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I had my round with it a year or so ago, I had nothing to do with either guy until , ironically they both contacted me within the same week.


----------



## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

Charles… Thank you very much for your Heads UP…

Sounds like you have saved many of us some really BAD experiences… and I thank you very much for doing so!

I will NOT take a chance on that finish…

Thanks again…

Keep up the good work!


----------

