# Am I missing something?



## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

There are hundreds (?) of plane enthusiasts on this site. About the only plane I use on almost every project is my Stanley block plane (G12-060) given to me by my father in law. It needed some work. Now, the sole is flat and the blade is sharp. I use it for fine shavings during fittings. Here's my question. If the sole is absolutely flat and the blade will shave the hair on my arm why do people buy Veritas and Lee Nielson block planes? Are they that much better for the price? Are they automated? Can I tell them what to do and come back later? Do they shave whispier whisps? Can I make the sole flatter than flat? What is it I'm missing? Help me understand.
Thanks,


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

#1 You always put a plane down on it side, not with the blade touching the work bench.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I've got one of those, great little plane. As for Veritas and Lie Nielson… I guess I don't get it either.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Madts, if I told you I retracted the blade would you believe me?


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

Oh no, is it time for Thursday Night Fights already? 
I've got 14 block planes in the shop and another 6 here in the home office. One is a LN - a 2004ish model with the open sides and bronze knuckle cap. It stays sharp as long as my favorites (the stanley 60-1/2s) but the LN is the only one that sings to me when I walk in the shop in the morning. It turns off the coffee pot if I forget at night. One time I bumped the shelf and it fell off, slid across a pile of rough walnut and planed it down to a perfect 3/4" before landing gently in a pile of its own shavings. I admit I didn't need another block plane when I bought it, but it had a bronze knuckle cap and I needed a little bling in my workshop. Heck, if they made the Sawstop with a bronze fence, I'd be all over it.

      < smiley faces so you know I'm joking people, no need to grab the pitchforks…..

EDIT: And yes, I do have a 2004ish LN block plane and I like it, but it's not my favorite block plane.


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## Deycart (Mar 21, 2012)

The only justification for spending all that is for the bling factor and its supposedly needs no tuning out of the box besides a quick hone. Plus brass tends to just brown when exposed to moist air and not rust as bad as a steel cap. Plus there is no nickle to chip of on them.

The LV planes have a few innovations like the blade set screws and you can get fancy blades for them. As for the LN planes brass is more dense than steel so if you like a plane with some heft to them it would be a consideration. They also tend to have adjustments that behave and are smoother.


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## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

My reason:

*DKV said:* "It needed some work"

My Veritas block plane didn't.


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

It's not brass, it's Manganese Bronze . Bronze baby! Handplanes are retro. The bronze age came before the iron age. You wanna be authentic you gotta get the bronze. I'm working on a line of granite and flint planes to take us back to the stone-age and then I'll be knocking LN off its high horse. Coming soon to a website near you - the JustJoe #60-1/2, low-angle adjustable mouth done in granite with italian marble knob and lever cap and a 1/8" flint blade. $395. ($325 for founders's club members).


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## jumbojack (Mar 20, 2011)

It is like the age old Rolex/Timex debate.


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## croessler (Jun 22, 2007)

Well I have a mixture of new and old planes…. All of my larger planes are very old Stanley planes while my block plane and shoulder planes are LN. They were perfect out of the box no tuning required and and now fighting with someone on ebay that mis-represented their product. yes that was a little jab…

That having been said… In all honesty it depends on where you want to spend your time. when you buy the tool do you wish to spend time tuning it or just going to work? This is a question/argument that has come up on many subjects; I dare you to post a forum question asking if it's better to build or buy a jig.

I'm glad I bought my old stanley's because of what I learned about planes during the process of tuning them. But, after having done that several times I don't need to do it anymore…


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Chris/Knock, once the sole is flat the sole is flat. We both have to sharpen every so often. I am waiting for the automation…then I will buy LN or LV.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Subjective of course. Same questions/analogy could be made to all products. A Ford Pinto drives, a Porsche drives too. Are they the same then? Probably comes down to a time vs money equation to some people. If you spend a bit more, you may have to put less time into it. If have time, and less money to spend, maybe its worth it to put a bit of time into it. Whatever floats your boat….or yacht.


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## Nicky (Mar 13, 2007)

I have 3 of the Stanley 60 1/2's, All purchased used, all needed a little work. I've had them around for 20+ years. I keep some extra blades so that I don't have to sharpen often (not very fond of the chore.) I use a few other planes; #3, #5 and #7, ebay has made multiples affordable. I've taken good care of these tools, and they serve me well.

My plane till is not the center of my shop. I've not installed any track lighting to highlight these planes as works of art. They are very useful tools, sitting proudly in the plywood/scrap till I made for them, waiting for the call to duty.

This is the choice I have made. This is a very cool time to be alive, we have many choices.

To each his own


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Quality tools are nice to use. If find the right vintage old tool they fit the bill. I have a LN 60 1/2 and a Stanley 65 with a hock blade. Like the Stanley better. Both are excellent tools.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Quality. Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. I think of it this way- Lie Nielsen makes planes today the way Stanley made planes prior to WWII: the best way possible. And to buy US quality takes $.

I own one LN plane (and many, many old Stanleys).


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

+1 to Smitty.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

To all, I admit the Veritas and Lee Nielson look really nice…but, do they make better shavings than a well tuned Stanley? I am still talking block planes since that is the only one I use.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Does everyone need a $100K luxury car or should everyone drive $15K economy cars. Both will get you there and the drive in either is probably pretty good. What can you afford? What do you prefer? Individual situation and preferences drive decisions. It is pretty much the same what ever hobby you have. How many megapixels do you need in your camera? Do you need the end all beat all lens?

Although, if the woodworking show comes to town and the LN road show is with them. I recommend avoiding the area. And what ever you do, do not pick any of the tools up…. You might get infected. lol


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Oh and the only practical way to own the plane Smitty is showing is to buy a LN for Veritas version. An old Stanley will set you back a few grand.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Wayne, if I am reading you correctly the LN and LV block planes are prestige tools kind of like a trophy wife. They cost more but the end result is the same.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Guys, what I'm waiting to hear is that the LN or LV block planes make better shavings than my Stanley. If not I guess I'm happy with my current G12-060. Thanks for the comments.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Brian Burns mentions how much he likes the Veritas
block plane in this video. He developed a method for
reliably planing figured woods with small bevel-up 
planes. When I learned his method I think he
was recommending the Record block plane over
the Stanley (it was definitely better), now he likes
the Veritas 20 degree.






I'm not a fan of block planes myself so I don't invest
a lot of energy in trying to optimize their performance.

The Record, IIRC, has more metal supporting the iron
than the Stanley. It also had a thumb screw instead
of a lever thing and the screw permitted a degree
of fine tuning.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Loren, thanks for the info. The video was interesting.


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## LRR (May 29, 2013)

For some people part of the hand tool woodworking experience is rust hunting and fettling the tools that are used and getting exactly what you want for a lower price. For others it is the history of the tools that they use. For others neither of the two above apply-they just like working with hand tools. Your block plane was a gift, and most people would do exactly what you have done to get it work, because it has personal meaning. Otherwise, spending hours hunting for one at sales or on ebay, and hoping that it fettles out okay-then spending the time to get it working, just aren't attractive or the tools are not locally available. They buy the pre-fettled tool and get on with the wood working. For example, I believe that you use an Incra rule. There are other less expensive rules available, but you really like what you have and use. I like my standard old combination square. Both do the job, if used correctly. I don't know that all groups need to understand each other, just share our enjoyment of the hobby (or profession).


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

LRR, thanks for the post. I can now add fettle, fettles and fettling out to my vocabulary. I had to look the word up.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

The car analogy doesn't work. A Porsche can do a lot of things way better than a Pinto: accelerate, corner, brake,etc. As far as driving goes, one is way better then the other. Perhaps a better car analogy would be a Yukon and an Escalade. As far as performance, the Escalade has no advantage, bit it is "nicer." I think the OP is asking, if the L-N is a Porsche to the old Stanley's Pinto, how does it perform better? Or is it more of an Escalade?


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## lysdexic (Mar 21, 2011)

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

I only own one LN, but I must admit, I do love it. My only experience with LN handplanes was at a big demo deal they did in Houston. From what I could tell, they were definitely a step above. It's like they had the secret sauce or something. That being said, I think a plane that costs less than half as much will do 90 to 95% of what a LN will do (evidenced by my millers falls). I would kind of compare LN planes to Ferraris.
Are they better? Yes. 
Can you get an extra 20 mph out of them? Yes. 
Are they economically viable and incredibly necessary for most of us to do our kind of work? No.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Well, there you are DKV. It looks like Sophia has what you are missing!

The used LN and Veritas planes that I see listed on CL make me believe that they hold their value very well.


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## PittsburghTim (Jan 16, 2012)

I used to trapshoot competitively and took great pride in beating people shooting $5K and $10K shotguns with my trusty Remington 870. As the old saying goes, it's not the bow, but the indian.

That being said, there is no denying that shotguns made by Krieghoff and Perazzi are truly works of art. They combine form and function and I would own one if money were of know concern.

DKV, you may want to add a small smoothing plane to your arsenal. I picked up a Miller Falls #8 (similar to a Stanley #3) in beautiful condition, tuned it up, and can take the most whisper thin shavings in the hardest of woods. It is great for fine tuning joints. While I am not a hand tool-only woodworker, it is a a tool that I reach for often.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

This looks like a most enjoyable Fri. morning in the works. Keep it up guys and now gals, since Sophia has joined the fray.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

It's nice that we can have a running debate on hand planes and at the same time help her optimize the position of her web site in Google search results. 

DVK when you through G12-060 in the mix, then yes LN is a much better performing plane. Against a well tuned sweetheart from the 1930's then perhaps not so much.

Tim would there be any improvement in your shooting beyond the pride of ownership if the Krieghoff and Perazzi was in your hands instead of the 870?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

And know that the objective is not the quality of shavings, but the resulting project, the smooth and / or true surfaces, and using quality tools get me there faster, with less hassle, than attempting to fettle what Schwarz would call 'tool-shaped objects.'

Not all quality hand planes are LN or Veritas, but you can be sure LN and Veritas are quality. Pre-war Stanleys (and MFs, and V&B, and Sargents, and etc. etc.) also fit the bill.

Pick one up if needed (no one is making #51 chuteboard planes but LN and Veritas, for example), and enjoy the craft.


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Here's my take on all this. Is the geometry right on the tool, flat sole, no rust, etc? Does the tool fit your hand? Do you like it, sexy? The thing that is cutting is the blade. You can put a crappy blade in a $1000.00 plane and get a crappy result.
So get a plane that works for you and put the best blade that you can afford in it, and you should be one happy camper.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

+1 Madts

A plane is just a holder for a blade….


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Madts, my soul (pun intended) is flat and true. No highs, no lows. My sharpness is second to none. I can cut through anything…

Wayne, what I'm trying to understand is why the LN is a much better performing plane. Give me some examples of the frustrations you suffered with cheap planes prior to buying an expensive plane. I'm not trying to be antagonistic just want to understand.

Pitts, I bought and seldom use the Veritas bevel up smoothing plane. Used it with a shooting board but found that I prefer "sneaking up" on perfect miters using power equipment as the easiest way to go.

All, I really enjoy reading all your responses. Probably the first thread I've started that hasn't gone to crap by post #27. Oops…

Just to prove I own one here it is. I think you all recognize my fancy bench…


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

DKV: If you want this to go south, I am sure that help is Available. )))

Just hire more Sophias.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Madts, do you remember my Shop Assistant of Your Dreams thread?

All, my miters on a box I am working on using the power equipment "sneak up" method.










Another corner…


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Is that the one that needed glasses to see anything up close because her chest was so big?


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Madts, going south fast…

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/43780


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## yrob (May 26, 2008)

while it is true you can spend time flattening a less expensive plane to make it 
perform well, it is not the whole story. 
the quality of the blade adjusment mechanism is another important factor.
it is especially important on bigger planes like jointer planes. 
an inferior plane 
will produce chattering because they often are not heavy enough abd come with blades
that are not thick enough. replacing the blade with a better one is not always possible.
if you want to shoot edges, your plane sides have to be 90 from the sole.
this is rarely the case on chinese knockoffs and it can not be easily 
corrected. the mouth is also sometimes an issue. on cheaper planes made of 
lighter alloys it chips over time in short you get what you pay for.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

I have a LOT of old planes. IMHO, the Veritas are priced to reflect the R & D that went into them. With an old Stanley, you move the frog and that can be problematic for some people. With the LV, you just move the mouth. The biggest rationales I can come up with for buying LN planes are (1) they are copies of the Bedrock design which requires more precision, and (2) they are guaranteed for life. Yes, the old Stanleys can work just as well, but perhaps not as with as much ease as the LV or LN.


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## GT350 (Dec 22, 2012)

+1 on Yves an Dave. I own several old Stanleys and they work well, sometimes though I wish there was less backlash in the blade adjustment mechanism. I would have to guess that when you pick up one of Veritas planes you would notice the difference in the feel and adjustments. 
Mike


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

They do not take better shavings, what they do is work so well and are so comfortable that they practically "disappear" from your hands and you can actually concentrate on the task being done rather than hassle with the tool. Any plane with a sharp iron will take fine shavings, but do you really want to spend 20 minutes setting it up?


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

LV and LN produce well machined tools. More blade options and nice steel for the blades. Is it worth it…... Maybe? I like nice shiny tools and I do use them(LV and LN). Still if your old stanley planes can work why bother? My primary hand plane right now is the stanley #4…. Go figure….


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have a couple of Stanleys, couple of LN and a Veritas. The Stanley does very well.

However, the LN and Veritas have a more solid feel to them. Is it just my imagination…could be…but when I pick up a good tool that fits in my hands well, it makes me happy. For me, woodworking is just that…something that I enjoy doing and tools that I enjoy using.

All of the same comments could probably be said comparing a regular 12" rule to a Starrett rule. The same goes for a cheap wrench versus maybe a Snap-On wrench.

The bottom line is that if it works for you and you are happy with it…that is great. I am not into trying to tell people they are wasting their money buying a LN or Veritas. If it makes them happy then the money was well worth it.


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## vipond33 (Jul 25, 2011)

The money can be well worth it. 
High end tools often are an extravagance for sure, less it's in your hand every day or imagine it so.
There's a certain feel to heritage, there's a certain feel to new design and features. I've got only 4 or 5 block planes, but as things progress, I do love my nx60.
Solely based on your disposable income, need and interest? - be happy.
Nice mitre's.
gene


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

That's a fine nx60 Gene.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I get a bit of whiplash reading this thread and then the thread on Harbor Freight tools.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Have a few vintage planes









and these are the only #4 sized ones I kept. A Wood River #4 V3, a Millers Falls #9 , a Dunlap by Stanley that is almost as big and heavy as the WR, and a Stanley Defiance #4. I keep the WR back as a finish plane, the less sandpaper I have to buy, the better. Same with most of my other sized planes. Mainly vintage, each has it's place.

Unlike some here, I actually ENJOY taking an old rustified plane and returning it to like new status. IT is a HOBBY to me, and I do not have to keep track of every second, since all the stuff I do make, I make for my Family. Besides, I like the feel of a plane that I have Refurbished back to life, the same feeling I get when a project is finished..


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Side note: what some on here pay for a single plane, would buy me enough planes to refurb for a year…..


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

given a choice, i would choose a Bentley, over a bus


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

Nobody has mentioned wooden planes. I just got my first couple in many years. These thins are great. Not flat, put it through the tablesaw. Not square, put it through the tablesaw. Need a fence, screw one on. Use them just like the wood-screws that Deek did not know how to use. A good Steel and a block of wood. As simple as it gets.
You might say "That sucks" but as "Bob is my uncle" and "Bless my cotton sock's", it is the "Cats Meow".

As far as I am concerned, anybody how says "Bless my cotton socks" is in the same league as someone who says "yammers"


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

*Moron*..... I've owned a Bentley and a lot of buses.

All in all I would prefer the buses.

Bentleys, and Rolls Royces, have so many proprietary parts that a minor breakdown can take months to fix.

Buses on the other hand can be fixed within a day… even changing out a 3 ton drive train takes less than 8 hours for two mechanics with decent qualifications.

Besides, I can turn a bus into a motor home and tow the Bentley behind as a toad!


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Can't quite get away from the iron parts on a plane, but









This might be the best of both worlds?

Cars: driven a 66 Ford Mustang for awhile, seats SUCKED

Drove a 70 Ford Mustang fastback, seats still SUCKED

Drove a Ford 64 Falcon Futura. Stright 6, would go for two days on "E", hand choke that was tricky to set. Seats were good for one thing, going "Parking" on a date ( you can fill in those details) Used oil like it was burning it instead of gas. Was about 1 qt per 100 miles, if lucky.


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## MarcusM (Mar 29, 2010)

Dallas…this being a topic about planes, shouldn't you be, at least, towing a frog rather than a toad…seems more appropriate? 

Mark.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

ressed steel "frog" like under a PEXTO sign are called toads…..

Could be talking about "Vintage Iron", right???


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

The nicer block planes have an adjustable mouth. That can be handy for taking fine shavings. 
I have a Veritas block plane, and it is pretty good. All planes will tear out figured wood when the blade is dull, so it's not magic. 
I won it from a magazine, otherwise I probably wouldn't have paid the steep MSRP.


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

So some of your are saying my harbor freight plane is not so great. I known it's not flat but neither is the wood I'm using it on.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

of course, not all of them are made of bronze, either









one is a vintage made by Sargent for Sears, the other is by stanley for great neck tool co.









at least in black walnut edge grain, the 9-1/2 clone seems to work….( paid $5 for it…. wow)


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## tomd (Jan 29, 2008)

DKV, yes you are definitely missing something.


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Marcus, my Bentley was an insurance auction buy when I use to work for a car lot.

Just a head light bezel was close to $1200 and took a month and a half to be delivered.

The hard part was the curved windshield….. That was $3200 for each half and I never did find a center bar.

For RV'ers, a vehicle towed behind the unit is a toad or a towed, but this particular car was just a TOAD!

To make this about wood working, I did buy a plane at the same auction… A J-3 Cub!

Seriously, I don't have a problem with those that spend a lot for a new product, after all, if you figure inflation, those Stanley, Record, Sargent, Millers-Falls and others would be outrageously expensive for a hobbyist.

I just prefer using old tools and old methods. I guess I'm a bit old fashioned.


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## DKV (Jul 18, 2011)

Tomd, what good is a plane that can not follow the undulations of a board? Stick with the HF plane.


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