# Garage workshop - a new can of worms



## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Some of you may recall my debacle of a thread regarding my downstairs workshop soundproofing. Based on discussions with my wife and contractor, one option I'm exploring is using my garage for a workshop, insulating it but not heating it (I'm in Minnesota). It's a tuck-under garage insulated on the ceiling and the shared wall with the house. The other two walls are concrete, so I'd put up a vapor barrier and studs and insulation under drywall.

The goal is to be able to park one car in the garage at all times, possibly two cars if I roll all my tools back (I'm going to try to make an efficient roll-away setup). Cost is still a factor, which is why I can't do anything crazy like wall off a section of the garage and install dual single-sized insulated garage doors and just heat the shop side (I also don't want to wall off half my garage).

Is this setup asking for disaster, either through rust or something else I'm overlooking? As my last thread demonstrated, apparently I don't know a darn thing about shop construction.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Been there … done that … hated it. http://lumberjocks.com/TheDane/workshop

My old 'shop' was in a tuck-under 2 1/2 car garage. I don't know how they figured it was 2 1/2 cars unless they were basing it on cars the size of MG Midgets. It worked, but it was a PITA.


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## Elizabeth (Oct 17, 2009)

I'd worry about moisture levels varying with the space being jointly used as a shop and as car storage…I'm assuming you'll want to park the car inside in the winter between uses, meaning you'll frequently be bringing a wet, soggy, snowy and cooling down car into the garage, right?


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

This is what I do in central NY. It works ok. You do have to take into account the fact that humidity will constantly change, so projects will move over the course of time. Also, it gets wicked cold sometimes in the winter, and really hot in the summer. Definitely not ideal, but at least I have some shop space.


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

@TheDane: I took a look at your setup and… wow. I have far fewer tools, which hopefully will make things easier, and for big operations I can pull both cars out of the garage and use the entire garage space and (if necessary) the driveway. It's not perfect, but it may be the best I can do.

My biggest concern is rust/climate issues; I don't want to heat the garage specifically for the reason Elizabeth identified - bringing snowy, salty cars into a heated garage to have everything melt and condense on my tools.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

I did your thing when I lived in NY. All big tools were on mobile bases. On the plus side, I was be able to crack a garage door and use a kerosene "bullet" heater (which required careful placement but also took care of any fine airborne dust…I'm a grown-up and no lectures are needed on that part). I didn't have to worry about fine dust finding its way into the living quarters like when I had a basement shop. Another benefit for me was that the electrical panel was in the garage so adding several circuits was easy.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I am in the process of a one car garage/workshop makeover. If you like follow along as I go through my re-organization. Like others, my large tools are on mobile carts (band saw, miter saw, planer/oscillating sander, jointer.

Hopefully, you will get some inspiration from my ideas. A lot of my ideas came from projects posted by fellow Lumberjocks and others from You Tube videos. So far, it is working out really well.

My blog is here.


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Teejk - I'm a grown up, but I could use a lecture. What issues did you deal with in using a kerosene heater to warm up your garage shop in the winter?


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

You will want canvas, or similar, cloth covers for your major cast iron machines. Moving quilts from HF work nice.
Then place a small source of heat, an incandescent light bulb will work, under each covered machine.
This will prevent condensation and its associated rust.
Electric radiant heat in the ceiling is good for working, and you can turn it off when not in there.

The cold air is naturally dry so I would be hesitant to use any open flame source of heat as this will ADD moisture to the air.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I do something similar, in the exact same climate (actually, about 30 miles North). It's not my garage, it's my parents' garage, as I live in an apartment. But in the winter when I want to use my power tools, I'll come there, park a car or two on the driveway, and then carry my tools up from the basement. It's a finished 3 1/2 car garage, with 2-cars worth sharing the back wall and ceiling with the house, and about 2/3 the side wall. It's insulated, and has insulated garage doors (a double and a single).

If I limit the amount of time I have the garage door open to unload stuff and move cars, it usually stays around 40-45 degrees in there, depending on the outside temperature. That's with out running a space heater, but there is a full size upright freezer, and a fridge running in the garage. It works ok. In the summer, it stays somewhat cool, but I generally use the back patio instead anyway.


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

So it sounds like this type of setup may not be ideal, but I'm not getting myself into a world of hurt in terms of rust or other climate damage. Has anyone else tried this idea of putting an incandescent bulb under machines? I've never heard of it before. I have heard of waxing the table saw and covering it with a heavy blanket.

And again, I don't really mind working in a cold(ish) garage - just as long as I'm not going to be destroying my tools.


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## emart (Mar 16, 2011)

as crank said I would suggest using some sort of indirect heat source like infrared which can be bought for fairly cheap and has the added benefit of not having an exposed heating element near a mountain of dust… granted I doubt you keep your shop in the same state of chaos as mine. as for the lumber that can be a major hurdle since I have had completed projects warp the second I removed them from my shop in the winter. The only solution I came up with for that was to store the lumber in my house under my stairs for a few days before I started work and I never left the components in my barn overnight if the seattle weather isnt cooperating (which is usually the case)


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

When your wife pulls her car into the garage in winter, the whole garage will get warm enough to melt the salt boogers behind the wheels. The good part is, my attached garage never gets cold enough to freeze anything. I live about 8 miles east of Niagara Falls, US and it gets down to single digits here in the winter quite often. And sometimes stays there for a while 

My current shop is a detached 1 and a half car garage sized building but no garage door. I put in French Doors instead. Not heavily insulated, but I did insulate the 2×4 walls and between the roof trusses to about R-15.

I use a small propane torpedo heater to bring the temp up quick and then an electric radiant (small one… 1500 watts) to keep it warm enough to work. If I'm out there a long time and if it's really cold outside I have to fire up the propane heater for a few minutes because the 1500 watt electric can't quite keep up. I think 3000 watts of electric heat would do the trick. I'm not out there every day in the deep of winter because I have to keep juggling the heat. I have no issues at all with the propane heater adding too much moisture and all my stuff rusting. I *DO* clean everything real good and give it a fresh application of G-96 gun treatment and then a few coats of Johnson's paste wax. No rust all winter. And I could eat off my jointer… hehehe…

I don't use covers. Covers hold dust. Dust holds moisture. If you DO get really high humidity, that dust doesn't dry as fast. Kinda like mulching your tools. Take a look at Radiant Cove heaters. I'm probably going to put 3000 watts worth of those in my shop on a thermostat. Cheap to install ESPECIALLY if it's not a full time space. And they warm your equipment and YOU, not the air. So you can set the temp at 65 and still feel toasty warm.

Oh… and EVERYTHING ON WHEELS and try to make things so they "nest" into each other and under benches and stuff and make it easy to do. If it's a chore, you'll never move them to get your car in.

I park outside. All year. Just get a remote start and man up a little heheheh


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks Charlie.

Another point: I don't use the shop every day. Sometimes I'll be making things constantly for a week, but then it might sit unused for three or four weeks.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

My detached shop can go 3 or 4 weeks without a visit. And it DOES get cold enough to freeze out there. So in winter I pack up my "freezables" and bring them in the house. 
One of my projects for this year (if I get several other ones done) is to build a warmed cabinet. A friend of mine did this. Just a normal plywood cabinet and on the inside he put 1/2" isocyanurate insulation with the foil side in, and he heats it with…. you'll love this…. a NIGHT LIGHT bulb. Automated by a $12 thermocube (on at 35 degrees, off at 45)


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Charlie, what are your "freezables"? And that's a very cool warmed cabinet. I've been looking at IR heaters for ad hoc shop-warming in the winter.

Also, as I mentioned two sides of my garage are concrete. Do I need to put in studs and insulate those walls, or is concrete a decent insulator as-is? If so, that would make my life a lot easier.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

If you want efficiency you'll want to stud and insulate. Once the concrete gets cold you'll feel it inside.


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## teejk (Jan 19, 2011)

ADHDan…I had no issues whatsoever with using the kerosene "salamander" in the garage as long as I could crack a garage door an inch or two. They stink bad on start-up and shut-down but modern code dictates a sealed garage structure for automobile exhaust, potential gas leaks, etc. I had un-insulated walls in the garage and a 60,000 BTU unit still got that garage "toasty" in minutes. That was NY so not as cold as Minnesota but not that far behind.

Where I was expecting the "lecture" was using the heater to burn off the airborne sawdust. In my mind it smelled the same as an open fire-place but we have several people on this board that expect to live forever (I don't want to be the guy that has to give them the bad news). Heater placement is important though (like keep your shop vac far away…don't bother asking how I know that).

Now that I typed that last piece, perhaps a new topic can be opened on "don't bother asking how I know that". LOL

Edit change…I never encountered a rust problem I couldn't deal with other than a few tools that didn't get used much (e.g. my tenon jig). Otherwise, frequent use always told me that it was time to recoat/lubricate).


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I think you will find concrete to be an awful insulator. It is too dense and conducts the cold or heat. The only good thing about concrete is the wind doesn't blow through it. 
That is about all the advice I can give you since I don't live in your climate and have little experience there. I do use a bullet heater in SW Oklahoma and it does work well for me. We probably have more humidity in Oklahoma in the winter that you do in MN (might get a lecture over that too) because it gets so cold up there that the air is dry. I actually burn diesel in my heater these days and it doesn't give off any odor. The old diesel would burn your eyes in one of these heaters.


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

Concrete is not a great insulator, but depending on how far it's buried in the dirt…. might not be terrible. Especially for part time. If you decide to stud and insulate, pay VERY close attention to vapor barriers. Before you do ANYTHING, tape a piece of heavy plastic or aluminum foil to the concrete wall. Ideally, top, middle and bottom. About a 1 ft square will do. See if you get any condensation on the foil (or plastic) and whether it's BETWEEN the concrete and foil or INSIDE the space. You don't want to trap condensation so don't just throw up a vapor barrier and then stud it until you know if you have vapor permeating the wall or higher humidity inside the garage. That will determine how you ventilate the space and you won't be starting your own mold farm for us to see on the evening news.


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## moke (Oct 19, 2010)

As I have said in other threads, I have forced air and I have never had a dust issue. I respectfully disagree with installing infared heaters. They are costly to run…at least double what forced air is, maybe more. I have had some experience with both, and I preferr forced air. You can leave a forced air at 40 or 45, whatever the lowest setting on your thermastat is and heat it up to "t-shirt temp" in 20 minutes or less. This is not a claim that infared or in-floor heating systems can make. I heat our garage/shop all winter long for less than 120.00. My shop is 28×38 and detached. I also sold my wife on spending that 120.00 by telling her how nice it will be to never have to get into a cold car….I keep all my "fluids" in there and never worry. I have never cleaned out the ducts and never had an issue…I have blown out the inside of the furnace every fall and I blow out the fliter lightly twice before I replace it. The key to keeping your casts down is insulation…it WILL pay for itself in one year.

As far as having a shop on "rollers" I have all my stuff in one stall of the three with 2 Expeditions in the two+ stalls. It is a pain in that you have to clean up every night after you are done, and it takes 15 minues to set it up, but I would guess the majority of us that are just hobbyists do that. I have everything and probably more than I need on rollers…..it includes for just a few….
52' pcs Sawstop with out feed
16' 600lb Jet planer
19-38 Super Max 
2 router tables
2 lathes
DP
DC
2 mobile benches
on and on…it all fits and over time I have learned some "mobile" shop tricks

Now make no mistake I would LOVE to have a shop that I could let saw dust pile up, close the door and go in for the night…in the city, with size restrictions, that can not happen all the time…live with what you have and make the most of it. 
Good luck
Mike


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

At this point I can firmly state that you are some of the most helpful people I've ever met. After reviewing this thread and the other thread together, and speaking with my contractor and my wife, we have decided to keep the shop indoors and use Roxul instead of styrofoam, along with two layers of drywall. In return, my wife gets to remodel our downstairs family room - which gives me projects to work on in my new shop.

I think between the two threads I pretty much know everything I need to know for this project and for my (eventual) garage remodel. We have bedrooms above our tuck-under garage, so insulating it well certainly is in the cards for the future.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to help me work through this and evaluate options. I hope I didn't destroy my LJ goodwill in the process!


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Dan: Paraphrasing Don Corleone: Some day, and that day may never come, we may call upon you to help us.


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## ADHDan (Aug 17, 2012)

Uh oh. Now I'm worried I may wake up to find my dismembered table saw lying next to me in a puddle of salt water and rust.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

move to Texas. I'll share mine with you. I have about 2200 sq ft. NO punk rock in the shop tho


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## KentInOttawa (Jun 25, 2013)

The plan of installing a vapour barrier is, IMHO, begging to trap in moisture and wreak havoc with your tools and your cars.

I had a past workshop that was a detached garage that was about 300 metres (1000') from the Atlantic Ocean. My brother-in-law, a renovation contractor, suggested that I install housewrap on the inside of the insulation. I did this, applied some strapping inside that and finished the walls entirely in 1/4" white pegboard. Despite being sporadically heated, experiencing sub-zero temperatures often and being in close proximity to salt air, none of my tools rusted, even without ever being covered.


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