# Shop wiring & electricians



## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

This may be slightly off-topic but I'm feeling rather aggrieved and maybe need a reality check.

So we moved last year and the new place had an unfinished stand alone garage destined to become a workshop. I hired an electrician to install additional circuits (including some 240 V lines) , more plugs and additional lighting. He is a very experienced electrician and I didn't really have the expertise to spec out the work in detail, I just told them that the garage was going to be a woodworking shop and I needed plugs for all the gear and lots of light as I'm getting old, LOL. We agreed on where all the plugs would go and I left them to do their thing.

No discussion at all about wire guages or breaker sizes. At the time I had no idea that there was a choice to be made with respect to what types of wiring to use, etc. Never occurred to me at all. Should have, but it didn't.

When they were done I had the place insulated, drywalled and painted

Fast forward, and I now realize that all the 110V circuits was done in 14 g wire, with 15 A breakers. This causes a problem as some gear I'm interested in (e.g. drum sander) requires a 20 A circuit. This will not mean running a new line from the panel, outside the drywall etc etc. A real waste of money, given that it could have been wired like that in the first place for only a marginal cost difference.

I realize its up to me to spec what I want ….... but the guy is a professional electrician and charging me really top dollars for the work. He new the space was to be used as a shop - shouldn't he at least have explained the wiring choices and let me decide?

Interested to know whether people think I have a legit beef or not.


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## OhioMike (Jun 24, 2012)

I don't know if you have a legitimate case against the electrician since you didn't provide specific requirements.

It sounds like you haven't purchased the drum sander yet so one possible workaround it to select tools that can easily convert to 240 volts. Then, if you find they trip a 120 volt 15 amp circuit, you can switch the tool to 240 volt operation.

Mike


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

That is too bad and an expensive lesson. I have found that when contracting a job for your home you need to specify everything and have it in writing. If you are uncertain, it is better to upside. If you do not know, then take time to find someone to make good suggestions.

A few years ago we added on to the house that included a new sewing room, shop extension and garage extension. I made certain the prints showed the circuits and wire size. Interesting, the contractor had me upside wire and circuits for the sewing room. With my wife using irons and other similar things it was needed. We also had them run cable and Ethernet everywhere.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Chalk this up as a learning, I can't imagine you have any legal legs to stand on, though attorneys seem to make cases out of nothing at times. I do agree the electrician should have went over the 15 versus 20 amp stuff, but there is no requirement to do so.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

It sounds like you have to either size the equipment to the circuit or get an additional 20 amp circuit installed in the box. If you put an outlet right next to the box (assuming it's recessed) it should be pretty simple.


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

Before you do anything to correct this situation - you need to contact a qualified electrician and provide him/her with details.

The only beef that you have should be with that person you see in the mirror every morning.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

This is exactly why I do all my own wiring. Can't trust residential electricians to do work for a shop. They just don't think the right way.


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## TungOil (Jan 16, 2017)

I can tell you that my Powermatic 22-44 drum sander pulls every bit of 20A on startup and I suspect others do similar. So you are going to need a bigger circuit to run that equipment.

I've built 4 shops now, and every time I seem to go with more power. My rule of thumb is to run multiple 20A circuits, usually one circuit with multiple receptacles per wall. I run 15A for lighting only. I also have moved to more 220V equipment, and have those circuits run dedicated to each machine as needed. I do a detailed shop layout every time, to scale, and mark the exact locations for the boxes before the electrician starts working (including height off the floor).

so how to fix the problem- the electrician should be able to snake wire into the existing walls even with the insulation installed. they can then add an old work box and you will be good to go. This will be relatively easy if you installed a sub-panel when you had the garage wired. if not, consider adding one now if you expect to be adding additional equipment…100A minimum would be my recommendation.


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

In a perfect world the electrician would have raised the issue with you. Although an electrician must install to code, they are not the designers. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if code actually required larger circuits in a dedicated shop space. But presumably the shop was permitted and inspected.

My general experience with most people, is they can be very good at what they do day in and day out. Ask them to go a bit beyond, like wiring a shop vs a home, and they often come up short. I think this applies to all. Electricians, to doctors. I've learned to not trust anyone unless you have no choice.

Doesn't mean you have to go to medical school to double check your doctor. But, is worth reading up on an issue to understand it better and know what questions to ask.

About 2 years ago I had an AC unit installed for my shop. I studied up on it, and was not surprised that all the contractors proposed oversized systems. I did a detailed analysis myself, and ended up with a much bettered sized unit for lower cost.

Another thing to keep in mind, that no matter how much thought you put into something like shop layout and design, you'll always think of something later you would have done differently. So don't kick yourself too hard.


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## AnotherToph (Mar 8, 2017)

This might be a silly question, but do you know if the work was done in NM (Romex) / BX (Armored Cable) or if it was done in conduit? If conduit, this should be a fairly basic job for an electrician to pull out the 14AWG and put in 12AWG. After that circuit breakers and receptacles are easy.


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

Any electrician worth their salt should have recommended 120V 20A multioutlet circuits in a shop. Gee.. even kitchens require 20A circuits for countertop appliances. To me it's a no brainer.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Had 3 shops built in the last 5 years (getting tired of moving); had to specify 20 amp circuits for each of them. Also lighting, had to double or triple the amount of lights wired in for each shop. I think most people think "garage shop" and it means a toolbox, a mitre saw and maybe a small contractor sized TS, along with a beer fridge and a TV. None of the electricians I'd used had ever seen a shop with the tools that I have.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

I always thought it was code to use 12 gauge for outlets and 14 gauge for lights?
I'm no electrician but I would check the codes.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> This might be a silly question, but do you know if the work was done in NM (Romex) / BX (Armored Cable) or if it was done in conduit? If conduit, this should be a fairly basic job for an electrician to pull out the 14AWG and put in 12AWG. After that circuit breakers and receptacles are easy.
> 
> - AnotherToph


From images on the internet, I believe it is NM cable. Definitely not conduit.



> Any electrician worth their salt should have recommended 120V 20A multioutlet circuits in a shop. Gee.. even kitchens require 20A circuits for countertop appliances. To me it s a no brainer.
> 
> - WhyMe


This is what bothers me. If it was his home garage and he was building a shop, I'm pretty darn sure he would have wired it with 12 g. He should have at least explained the choice and let me decide. Instead …. he didn't give a crap, got his assistants to do the work at $70/hr and moved on.



> My general experience with most people, is they can be very good at what they do day in and day out. Ask them to go a bit beyond, like wiring a shop vs a home, and they often come up short. I think this applies to all. Electricians, to doctors. I ve learned to not trust anyone unless you have no choice.
> - clin


Yup, well said, you have to look after yourself which is where I failed. 
But, still, this guy has been an electrician for 30+ years doing all sorts of different work which is why I hired him. I don't think it was a lack of experience, just him not giving a crap because its not his space, or maybe his assistants (who actually did the work) getting it wrong.

I'm paying a guy $70/hour and I have to go research wire sizes before he starts? Shouldn't be that way …..


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> Had 3 shops built in the last 5 years (getting tired of moving); had to specify 20 amp circuits for each of them. Also lighting, had to double or triple the amount of lights wired in for each shop. I think most people think "garage shop" and it means a toolbox, a mitre saw and maybe a small contractor sized TS, along with a beer fridge and a TV. None of the electricians I d used had ever seen a shop with the tools that I have.
> 
> - Manitario


All my stuff (TS, planer, jointer, air cleaner, shop vac, router table, spindle sander, disk sander, bandsaw, etc) was in the middle of the garage while they were doing the wiring. And the thing is - we talked about it - the whole purpose of the reno (extra lighting, extra outlets, 240 V circuits) was to make it a dedicated woodworking shop. Now I never said I was going to go buy some equipment that needed 20 A circuits - because I didn't even realize that was an issue - but the overall purpose of the space was 100% clear.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

IMO the electrician screwed up. Anybody worth their salt should have asked you what machines you planned on using. They simple did a knee-jerk residential wiring job.

You will have problems and you will have to change the wiring. I know this because when I was trimming out our addition, just about every time I used my miter saw the breaker popped. I don't know if this is because of the arc fault protection or just undersized.

I think your solution is going to be to run external conduit or armor flex cable to upgraded breakers.

Now I'm curious as to what they did for your 240V circuits. They should be #12 w/20A breakers.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> Any electrician worth their salt should have recommended 120V 20A multioutlet circuits in a shop. Gee.. even kitchens require 20A circuits for countertop appliances. To me it s a no brainer.
> 
> - WhyMe


Agreed


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I would be upset too but I don't think you have a case. This is a guy that does the bare minimum and you didn't specify so I think you will have to run new lines.


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## 01ntrain (Jun 21, 2015)

Chalk it up as a lesson-learned, but I would definitely let him know your displeasure and give him the chance to make it right. There's a chance that he might, if he thinks that it may affect his business. Or then again, he may not care. But, you will sleep better with yourself, at night knowing that you tried. If he balks, then I would never do business with him again, and my friends, relatives, and anyone else would know what kind of business that he runs.


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## them700project (Aug 12, 2015)

I just wired my garage least year. Lucky for me I ran everything outside sheetrock in conduit. I put 12 outlets or so in. at bench level. An electrician can quite afordably do this in your shop. It wont look as nice but its code and inexpensive


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Merely because someone is labeled an expert doesn't mean they know what needs to be done on a given job. Nor does it mean they have common sense. Of course, it, certainly doesn't mean they know anything about other than their own profession.

I know three electricians. They all gave the same advice - just install a hundred amp box. From that advice I can only conclude they are too used to doing the minimum required, which is code (debatable in your case). As I pointed out to each of them:

- I have a saw and a collector that run at the same time and, when running, grab 30 amps.

- I have thirty lights at about 15 amps.

- I have a stereo, which runs at about 5 amps.

- I have a friend who comes over and runs the other collector and a one of the stationary sanders for about 20 amps.

- In the summer, I run air and in the winter I run heat. That system requires a 40 and a 60 amp breaker.

When all is said and done and remember we shouldn't coax every last rated amp out of our wires and box, that pushes the limit pretty hard, eh?

So it goes with outlets. Yes, you can install fourteen gauge outlets. You can also use twelve and ten gauge. Of course, fourteen is the easiest to install, but I refuse to install fourteen gauge wire and outlets for anything but my lighting. It's, at best, penny wise and pound foolish.

I hire pro's because they SHOULD know, better than me, how my project should be done. I'm re-thinking that concept, unless the project is in writing and comes with guarantees. Said another way, I'd be pissed. I'd be pissed if the electrician wired my house in fourteen.

_
Another example of "pro's" at work: Go to a tire store and ask what tire or what air pressure you should have on your van, for example. You'll get a canned answer from most. This canned answer ignores that Fred and Mary never haul anything more than their frail selves and their rat dog, while Bufford is always loaded for any handyman job and is running seven hundred pounds more.

The first van would do fair with four ply rating, but the second would be better served with actual six ply tires and forty pounds pressure, rather than thirty-four(ish).


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On all this "call it a learning experience," there is no reason the electrician should be presumed excluded.

Many locations REQUIRE garage outlets to be higher than what we'd find in a house. Check yours. Who knows, you might find a back door.

A good electrician would have pushed twelve. He might also have reminded you you were going to be plugging things in a lot, so waist high outlets might be a good idea. As others said, double duplex boxes make sense in this application.

In the end, I love sharing with the world how happy, or sad I am with someone's work. If a guy or gal is a danger to others' pocket books, this can affect their ability to do so. On the other hand, it can grow the business of someone willing to learn how to best serve his or her customers.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

I had my shop wired 2 years ago, in my basement. When he came to write up the estimate we went over it all together to see which tools went where and what their stated amperage draw was and then his guys wired it all. While I doubt you have much legal recourse (and if you do you'll spend way more on lawyers than you'll get out of the electrician), but I do find it very surprising that he never even raised the issue with you.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I didn't read all the responses so maybe this has been said. Unless it's lights and small stuff I'd wire with #12 for all sizable power tools. And with big stuff like 3hp motors 12 will work but I use #10. Not an electrician but it's been my practice.. for a few bucks more.


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## unclearthur (Jul 4, 2013)

> ....... f you do you'll spend way more on lawyers than you ll get out of the electrician .....
> - jdh122


Not even considering lawyers etc for obvious reasons, but in theory I think I'd have a pretty good case that given my instructions (ie wire for use as a dedicated ww shop) a reasonable professional would have used, or at least suggested using, 12 g or even bigger wire. In the circumstances, I think its tough to say that a homeowner isn't owed that level of care; he is paying for this.

I did speak with him afterwards and asked why they didn't use 12 g. He said "You might as well ask why we didn't use 8 guage. Its residential so we used 14 g." End of story. Just disregard customer needs and do whats easy.


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## Iamjacob (Mar 18, 2011)

> I did speak with him afterwards and asked why they didn t use 12 g. He said "You might as well ask why we didn t use 8 guage. Its residential so we used 14 g." End of story. Just disregard customer needs and do whats easy.


And that's what the internet is for. If the guy is on yelp or angieslist or any other place where you can leave a review do so. Don't lie or exaggerate but lay out your experience and opinion of his work. I'm sure any future customers would like to know what they are getting from this guy.

In this day and age of social media and public forums it's dangerous to tell a customer tough luck and go pound sand.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

> Just disregard customer needs and do whats easy.


Installing 12g is no more work than 14g … 14g is just cheaper.

Many years ago, I worked for an electrical contractor and was licensed in two states. My licenses expired many moons ago, so when we built the shop in our new old house, I hired a contractor (didn't want any code issues when we sell the place), and gave him a list of the machines I would be using and their power requirements. I wound up with a 100-amp sub-panel, 12g wire on all of the 20-amp circuits, and 8g on the 240 volt circuits.


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## TajBuilder (Aug 6, 2008)

> Interested to know whether people think I have a legit beef or not.
> 
> - unclearthur


Legit beef? Yes. Legal beef? Probably not. But I'd ask him to fix it anyway. If he's not concerned about you as a customer, he should be concerned about the 12 potential customers you're to tell about your experience and/or the review you're going to give his company on-line.


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## curliejones (Mar 12, 2012)

Interested to know whether people think I have a legit beef or not.

In one of your other responses you mentioned that your equipment was in the garage while the work was being done and you also mention the drum sander "that you're interested in". I believe you will be at the mercy of the contractor regardless but a well-written letter stressing equipment electrical requirements might help your case IF the equipment present in the shop (garage) at the time has requirements (on manu plates) that exceed the 15A circuits. I doubt he will give a cut-rate on the extra work required just as I doubt you really want to see him back on your property (I'm projecting my own feelings). This is a tough way to learn but you might check into flexible metal cable for an outside the wall application that would save lots of time over fishing in the walls. I used flex in 12 ga going to 4" square boxes (two 20A duplex receptacles) and put two different circuits into the same box in many places. Not knowing my exact shop layout, I wired low and high in most places, 12" and 40" above the floor to the bottom of the box. I hate rip-offs like this but this indicates exactly why I DIY everything.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

I used to make my living helping folks deal with dirt bags . Though they were government employees, it remains anyone can be pressured to do the right thing. As I used to tell clients, use every back door opportunity you can to get your win ("Do me good, I tell a few people, but do me bad, I tell everyone").

I can't say I put any attorneys out of business, but I can say I hurt a few very badly by reporting what they didn't do for their clients and just sticking with documented facts. Guys like this can be "coaxed" into helping fix their error.

As said by another, don't exaggerate. State ONLY provable facts. That way, you can push cooperation without finding yourself in a fight defending against libel.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I doubt you'll get him to redo it for free but he might work a deal for half price. I wouldn't hold my breath though.


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

Not that this is the best solution but if he ran 20a 240v circuits then convert the 15a to 240 and the 20a to 110v. Just a matter of changing around breakers and outlets. You'll have to have some big machines to stress a 15a 240 line so not as big a deal.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Derosa's idea has merit, and may be worth checking. One other thing occurred to me: he may have used some very cheap receptacles for the installation. I've always went with commercial units in my shops since the stuff being lugged in was 1) plugged in and out a lot (moreso than in the house, IMHO) and 2) the cords/plugs are usually heavier duty, weigh more, and stress the outlet more than say, a vacuum cleaner.


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