# Charles Neil's Pre Conditioner/finishing schedule?



## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

Hey guys, i'm gearing up to build the wood whisperer wall shelf. i'm using cherry which of course blotches. I have a few questions about CN's pre conditioner though. Since i want the cherry to speak for it self and let it darken i need help with 3 finishing scearios for my schedule

3 scenarios for using it:
1.) Pre conditioner then straight to Arm R Seal topcoat 3-4 coats

2.) Pre conditioner GF light brown dye, then Arm R Seal 3-4 topcoat coats

3.) pre conditioner, coat of 1-2 lb cut. dewaxed shellac, then Arm R Seal topcoat 3-4 coats

can i go straight to topcoat for a natural look?
Thanks in advance.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

Why not ask Mr. Neil.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

If you have the conditioner I think it's listed on the container. My recall is that you do one coat let it set over night and sand to 400 apply second coat sand to 600 . But as my good buddy Juniorjock says you might want to check with Charles [email protected]


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

LOL


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm going to say this, with utmost respect to Mr. Neil, but If you can't go straight from conditioner to Arm R Seal, then it's not much of a product. I would think that that would not be an issue. Typically, it would be the dye step that exacerbates the blotching.


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

I didnt think going straight to the Arm R Seal would be an issue but i tried some shellac on a few test pieces and the shellac caused blotching as well. i think the inherent color of the shellac itself may have caused it. I'm going to end up using the pre conditioner no mater what just to keep my sanity and for other projects. but i wanted to get you guys' opinions on this. Thanks


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Can you spray your finishes?


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

do have a spray gun, but i've been told spraying arm r seal can be a huge mess and living in new england, i dont know if it would be too cold to spray outdoors


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I didn't suggest spraying the Arm-R-Seal. I was implying to spray the shellac washcoat.

BTW, you mentioned "inherent color" in reference to the shellac…use Zinsser Sealcoat instead diluted 50% with alcohol (1 lbs. cut). It has less color than what you are probably using.


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

OH sorry, haha. i could certainly do that.


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

I've got only good things to say about Charles' products. But since he is the expert I think he would be very happy to answer your question. Send him an email and I am sure you'll get all of the assistance you need!

-Then post what he says here so we all can benefit!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

BTW, I haven't used Charles' product. Use it on some test pieces. By reputation it should work fine. Probably no need for the shellac…its just what I usually do.

I'm sure Charles will pop on to give you advice regarding proper use of that product.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

hang tight guys, , I happen to have a 10' board in front of me as we speak, your timing is perfect, 
the prestain will definately handle the blotch, thats not an issue, the issue is can we control oils from blotching without it. yea thats what I said, WITHOUT it. I think we can, and simply 
Here is the issue, the oils do not afford any color, well a couple have some amber/yellow to them , but by in large they are clear, as well as most lacquers, but they can also change the woods color. its a reaction the solvents have with the wood, so what happens is the oils when applied as is typical in, a heavy coat , let sit, wipe off, add more to dull spots, they can blotch like crazy. 
What is happening is the oils are being absorbed more by the soft grains, more oil = more reaction = more blotch. Thinner oils, like oil prestians are worse, also slower drying oils, like BlO and Danish , also are more prone. 
so all of that said, we are testing some different applications to see if we can cure it . Be back later today with some answers


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

Thank you sir charles. you are a wealth of knowledge and i've been watching all your videos since i started wood working last year. Cant wait to find out what your results are.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

ok folks will be in the am, we have experiments drying over night . hang tight


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

this will be great for getting some sleep lol.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

BUT WAIT….......
Charles has to tell us tomorrow? Dang!
OK! I'll wait.
Thanks Mr. Charles. Your support and advice is some of the best, and I want ya to know that I follow faithfully.
Bill


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Well just so you all sleep well I got our very own Stumpy Nubs checking out my experiments, as well as 3 other guys, because if I think what I came up with really works, you simply not going to believe it . But ,But , the vedict isnt in yet . .


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

This thread illustrates the myths and misconceptions about finishing cherry. I've never done anything but applied solvent lacquer directly on my cherry projects, without any pre-"conditioner." They all turned out beautifully.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Clint

oils botch, blotch prone woods , period .
Writing a book as we speak, its a full chapter on it ,it is not a myth, it is a fact , looking at 4 long boards right now
I see it, unless in your shop there is some magical powers that prevent it , it happens.
Alot of these folks dont have the ability to use lacquer and so forth , I do as well as you , as a matter of fact I have a state of the art spray booth , and all the goodies. I can finish a complete kitchen in 2 days , easily .
But the question here isnt about you or me or what you consider a myth , its about the folks who dont have the capabilities we do .They are my concern, not you, no offense intended. 
These folks are not asking what you or I can do , they are asking what THEY can do . Thats the question !


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

All I have to do is pick up a piece of cherry and it blotches.

Thanks for all your help, Mr. Neil.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Not a myth at all. The OP wants to finish with oil-based finish, brushed or wiped on. They cherry will blotch.

The question is how you prep the wood before the finish.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Uh Oh….
The Stumpster is in on the deal.
We're ALL in for a lot of trouble.
GO STUMPY. CHARLES ROCKS!
What's McChicken got to say?
))))
Bill


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

His name's McNugget, Bill. And he doesn't say anything. He's a chicken.


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## Randy_ATX (Sep 18, 2011)

*His name's McNugget, Bill. And he doesn't say anything. He's a chicken.*

Best laugh I have had all day.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

ok, well here we go .
First the best solution is a 1lb cut of shellac then the Arm R Seal , over that.
The objective here is to have the cherry benifit from the reaction of either an oil or a solvent, my blotch control is water base and would stop the blotching, but it would also leave the cherry bland looking, which if being dyed or stained is fine . However this is directed at a oil finish on natural cherry, so we want the cherry to get the pop of natural color without blotching. 
Oils as I stated , and especially slow drying oils like BlO or Danish oil blotch the worst. the pure oils are even worse than they are. 
The Shellac , as would a lacquer or other fast drying solvent produst , will blotch the least. These products dry quite fast , thus less reaction time, but they give enough to kick the cherry , then apply the oil finishes over that.
This is not going to give you a penetrated finish , but more of a film finish , for close to the wood finish , I Like the shellac and then a quick scuff with some 600 and a gel topcoat , in a satin sheen, what I am doing is using the shellac as a seal /barrier coat then using the gel as a more durable finish, but as well it gives me the sheen. 
You can also try the gel alone, it produces the least blotch when applied without the shellac, because it does not penetrate nearly as much, just do a light first coat and let it dry. Then subsequent coats until you get the sheen you want . If you want a matte /dull sheen use some Formbys low gloss tung oil ,(its not really a tung its a varnish oil). 
Ok, ya ready for this one , now before you go off the deep end , try it . There is probably no one in the world who would even think to try or do this. Well except for me 
Now before I tell you about this , lets be sure to understand that the shellac is the best solution.
Take a scrap of cherry , wet it , with water , yes WATER , just a wet wipe , then wipe the oil on top of the water . NO JOKE , Just a thin wet coat of oil, I used Arm R Seal and also the Formbys ..
Its going to look super blotched, let it dry , then do another coat of light oil, it may look a little blotched again, let it dry and then oil away, and if ya think thats nuts try it under a oil stain on some cherry, the stain will be light when dry do a second coat and you should be good to go.
I know , I know , this should not work in any way shape or form, its nuts, right ?
Try it , now I did this and then applied 3 full wet coats of Arm R Seal and let dry a couple of days ,and then using a quarter tried to scrape the finish off, I dented the wood , I also did a moisture check against the rest of the board and it was the same after an over night dry, which is how long we allowed the first oil to dry.
Ok , there ya have it , some idiot just told you to put water on a piece of cherry and then wipe oil over it . Yep I did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

in the above the bottom paragraph should be in the main body, i have edited it and it appears correct until it post , I have no clue.

I was able to get it all together, guess that will do, sorry


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks Charles. I will do some test pieces. the first thing i'm going to try is the shellac and the arm r seal topcoat
if i'm not happy with it i will use your pre conditioner and the light brown GF dye before topcoat.this is incredibly helpful


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I just used some seal coat thinned 1 to 1 with DNA ,


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Finishing with todays woods and wider grains is togh. I have gotten some grat information here to broaden my experimentation with finishing an getting grain to stand out. Glad I stopped here. Thanks!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

During the experimentation I had the idea to try spilling a cold one on a piece of cherry and see if it would leave any blotches. It didn't blotch, but it did leave a big puddle of beer on the wood. I have to admit, I didn't expect that.










I don't think that method is going to make it into Charles' next book.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

LOL…Try a better beer next time, 'Nubs.

/Beersnob


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

What are you talking about? The label says it's the "champagne of beers"... CHAMPAGNE! That's what fancy people drink!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Lol…you get what you pay for, 'Nubs…you get what you pay for.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Stumpy they also have one called Milwaukees Best . I hope not !


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)




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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

Charles, do you have any pics of the test boards you did? i would love to see the outcome. Thanks a million for providing the info. This was extremely helpful.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

yes we do, I sent them to Stumpy , because I don't know how to post them


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

you are the man!


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## StumpyNubs (Sep 25, 2010)

As most of you know, Charles set up a test of an unconventional method for reducing the tendency of wood, especial cherry, to blotch with oil finishes. His unique idea called for wiping the raw surface of the wood with water and then immediately applying a finish. As he said above, the test was to see if the small amount of water that soaked into the softest fibers would reduce the amount of oil finish that those same fibers could absorb, thus providing a more even coverage.

HERE ARE THE TEST RESULTS:

This first photo is of aspen, a wood that's notorious for the blotches left by oil finishes. The piece was wiped with water, then the oil was applied and allowed to dry overnight.


















Next is a photo of some cherry. The same method was used, After drying a second coat of oil was applied.


















This is another test conducted with cherry and Tung Oil. The first was done with the water method, the second was done with no water, instead a 50/50 mix of Naptha and Tung Oil was applied for the first coat.


















Finally is some figured cherry with another method. This involved coating with a 1lb cut of shellac and following up with BLO and then Arm R Seal. It appears that the pre-coat of shellac provided the best result.


















Charles gives his take on the tests above, but I also found the water test surprising. I didn't know what to expect when I urinated on my piece of cherry. But Charles wanted it wet. Perhaps the water would repel the oil finish? But it would not scrape off, and the moisture content was the same as the untreated portion of the wood. It clearly did reduce the blotching. Even if it didn't end up being the best way, it surely is an interesting test.


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

thanks for doing the test. never thought the water and oil thing would work. yet another tricky thing about wood


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

yep , who would have thunk, water and oil …. !!!!!!

proof is in the pudding, I hear all the "spurts" , scrambling to their shops to prove us wrong.

try it , again not the best , but " It ain bad " . Later


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## Gerry1 (Jul 12, 2009)

Stumpy, Charles said use the water BEFORE you drink it…........


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## Gerry1 (Jul 12, 2009)

BTW, I've used Charles' botch control on several projects, and once dried and scuff sanded, have always found it to allow the grain to show well with ArmRSeal. My process is Blotch Control, let it dry, scuff it back with 400, blotch control, scuff back with 600, let it dry, 50:50 ArmRSeal /mineral spirits, then 2 coats of full strength ArmRSeal. This has worked well for me.


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

thats awesome to hear. thanks gerry


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Wood preconditioners, in this thread, rated in order of taste:

1.) Beer
2.) Water
3.) Shellac (especially if served on Skittles)
4.) Charles Neil's Blotch Control
5.) StumpyNub's Urine


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

so i finally got my cherry stickered and letting it acclimate. i also got the preconditioner. Should i mask off the portion going into the dado when using it or will the titebond be unaffected by the preconditioner?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

you will be fine, no adverse glue issues


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## Sirgreggins (Apr 12, 2012)

Sweet! Thanks again


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