# Is Scott Phillips (American Woodworker) preventing new woodworkers from learning proper Joinery ?



## a1Jim

Having a rather lazy 4th of July I decided to watch some TV. As I flicked through some channels I saw Scott Phillips making a project,so I thought I'd see what he was up to and wanted to see if he changed his approach to joinery from the last time I saw his show(years ago),he had not changed his aproach. 
At this point, I have to admit I'm not a fan of much of his workmanship.
Scott seems like he would be a great guy to know and be friends with. My issue with Scott and his show is that no matter what casework project he makes he always uses pocket screw joinery. As joinery goes pocket screws are relatively strong for what the are(a butt joint with mechanical fasteners). But when I open a door or look inside cabinets and see pocket screws my first thought is the builder is a very new woodworker and or they want to only make quick projects that are not top quality ,products like those made for Walmart. 
I believe Pocket screw joinery has its place ,mostly in hidden locations like the back of face frames.
This brings me back to my question. If a newB only watches "American Woodworker"they may think that since Scott has been around for years that pocket screw joinery is the do all woodworking joint, and not bother to learn other types of joinery that takes some time and practise to learn.
This approach has been brought to my attention by a few of my new students saying," why not pocket screws" for almost every project they want to make.
Does all this mean pocket screws are evil and should never be used? No! But if you're a new to woodworking or not and you want to keep improving your woodworking skills then look into and learn some more time-tested Joinery.
To those of you who love pocket screw joinery for its ease and ability to make quick projects.Enjoy!

What's your take on this subject?


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## bandit571

When Kreg is your major sponsor…....one has to use and show how to use THEIR products as much as one can.

Simple as that, now IF someone else were to foot the bill, and didn't have pocket screws for a product, but say a mortise 7 tenon jig, and a dovetail set up…...

Three kinds of woodworkers are on the tube nowadays….Scott (Mr. Kreg) Phillips, Tommy Mac (Woodcraft), and Underhill. I'd suggest a season or four of Underhill, then a season or so of Tommy Mac. If all they want to do is power tool stuff…..there is always Woodsmith. Then maybe Phillips

I still remember the old shows Scott put out, long before the Kreg Plague showed up. back before the new house was ever built.

BTW: halfway between Sidney,OH, and Piqua,OH, south of the Lockington Dam….is scott's new home. Since I tend to take the "backway" to Piqua, instead of I-75…..I drive right by the place….


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## FirehouseWoodworking

Well said!

While I own a pocket hole jig from Kreg and use it on occasion, I don't like the looks. If I choose pocket holes, it is because I won't normally see the pocket holes again. Even with plugs.

I understand the strength of the joint. But if I'm going to take the time and pride in a project, I want it to look good as well as being well made. That's why I choose real wood instead of particle board! Of course, particle board has it's place, but I digress.

Cheers!


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## a1Jim

Bandit
The first time I saw Scott 27+ years ago he made a shaker clock with pocket screws in the door,long before Kreg took off and he refused free tools from any sponsors back then. I beleave it was his choice of joinery even then,nothing to do with Sponsors .

BTW his show is also sponsored by Woodcraft

Besides all that are new woodworkers just going to belong to the pocket screws only set?


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## a1Jim

Thanks Dave


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## TheDane

Jim-I have to admit I have wondered the same thing.

There is no question (in my mind) that Scott Phillips uses way too many pocket screws. But the same could have been said years ago when Norm Abram was pushing biscuits. If you look around the net, you'll find other woodworkers who use dowels on pretty much everything, while other guys are high on Dominoes. They all have their place.

In the end, I don't know that it makes much difference. The best we can hope for is that it will get more people interested in woodworking … once you get them into the tent, you can talk to them about different, better joinery options.


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## Sigung

Jim, I am more of the galoot persuasion than the power tool persuasion, although I do use power tools.

I would use nothing but hand tools IF I were good enough, but I'm not, that being said, I use hand tools wherever possible, and the thing I am most proud of is my ability to make a good hand cut dovetail, mortise and tenon joint, etc., so my approach is what I believe they call a "hybrid" approach.

I don't think it serves the woodworking community and especially up and coming woodworkers to present such a lopsided approach to woodworking as Mr. Phillips is doing, although he may not have a choice.

I'm not sure if he'd be allowed to by his sponsors, but it seems to me he would do better to make some things with the pocket joints, and some things with hand made joints and some with traditional joints made with power tools.


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## a1Jim

Good point Gerry 
I guess to each approach there is a season.


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## a1Jim

I agree Jerry it may be a matter of skill or even time restraints to crank out a project a week. I also noticed the only finish Scott uses is Shellac,another quick and easy approach I guess.


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## DocSavage45

Jim,

Scott is a master of sales. He takes time to promote any and all of his sponsors. He has promoted the people who have installed equipment in his shop. LOL! He has even Hosted on of our own on his show. Charlie K.

I remember him engaging the high school class who were learning home building skills to build his first house. By the way I do not own a pocket hole tool.

Norm might have used more pocket screws if Kregg had been a sponsor? He did use a lot of power tools and I certainly liked Norm, I also bought tools to be like Norm? LOL!

Tommy Mack and Roy Underhill do similar and dissimilar things. Tommy is a hybrid woodworker, while Roy is all original.

Too bad I got hooked on James Krenov too late.

What ever way a woodworker goes, he or she should have information about all types of Joinery even if they choose not to use them?

Happy 4th of July!


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## a1Jim

Happy independence day back at you Tom

Yes I agree that TV shows love to have the host use their products, but Scott used pocket screws on everything close to 30 years ago long before Kreg was a sponsor.


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## ArlinEastman

Jim

I agree that is his primary way of case work and I do not watch him anymore. I do have to say since Kreg is one of his sponsors he is doing a good job for them but not the rest of his spongers.

His turning is downright dangerous on how he uses his tools. I no longer tell the vets I teach to watch him if he is turning.
I am very sure him and his wife are terrific folks but would like him to get safer on his tool use.

I do like a lot of his projects tho.

So now I watch Tommy Mac on Mondays & Fridays and Woodsmith Shop on Tuesdays & Thursdays.

It is Really sad that there are more cooking shows then anything else.


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## RichardHillius

Pocket hole joinery is a very accessible way to assemble furniture. It can be done with minimal tools and skills and if placed carefully does produce good results. I don't think he is hurting the hobby woodworking industry as I imagine anyone who comes into woodworking through his show and enjoys it will eventually branch out into other methods as their skills and confidence improves. Overall having easy ways to break into woodworking that don't require a lot of tools or specialized knowledge is a good thing for all of us. I think we as woodworkers who are farther down the journey sometimes get so caught up with the tools and methods we have adopted over time that we forget that everyone has to start somewhere and it's not always practical or wise to require a garage full of tools to even try this hobby.


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## longgone

If is on TV then it must be true and right…? I guess that is why I dont watch much TV. never seen this guys show.
As a young kid I learned all my basics with hand tools before I ever used electric tools. glad I did.I never heard of pocket hole joinery back in the 1950-1960 s and not really sure when they became popular.
I do own a Kreg but it was more out of curiousity and i cannot remember when I last used it. if you like it then use it but learn other methods if you value your knowlege skills


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## a1Jim

Arlin
There are other things that I would teach differently than the way Scott does them, the few times I've watched ,but I'm sure the same might apply if someone filmed what we do in the shop and perhaps on the TV show too.
Richard
I agree that we all start with what every joinery or approaches and tools we have,that's why I said if folks want to improve their skills they might investigate some of the more traditional joinery available.
All said and done if a person wants to use pocket screw joinery only ,that's their choice.


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## jkl103144

Jim, I pretty much agree with you here. While it is a good entry point to joinery, too much of a good thing is just too much. I'd much rather go with a biscuit planer and clamps, but that's just my preference.

I work in the interior design field, as a self-employed maker of beautiful finished products, such as cornices, padded headboards, window treatments, and custom quilting. But while most of that uses rudimentary woodworking, I still like to do special projects. For instance, right now, I am trying to get into the "Reclaimed/Primitive" furniture thing for a designer client, who has been pestering me a long time to begin making this type of furniture for selling in her business. So I've decided to retool the woodworking end of my basement shop.

In the process of looking for a few perfect pieces of furniture to make for my designer friend, I have been all over Penterist, looking at practically everything that would interest me. And believe it or not, a great deal of the furniture projects on the web are being made by female bloggers. There's a bunch of them doing, and building things, and then blogging about it. Its amazing in the sense that when I was young and looking for that perfect soul mate, there just weren't any women, who used table saws, owned pneumatic systems, or loved getting filthy.

But not anymore. These woodworking babes are going at it in a big way, and they have sponsors coming out of the "yin-yang". And guess which is the one sponcer they always tend to pull out? If you say "Kreg Pocket Hole Jig",.....YOU WIN!! Those babes just love to throw things together with that thing. You can almost sense the orgasm building up.

Now, I'm the kind of guy who believes the top, and inside of even my most lowly upholstered cornice, should show ones best handiwork, because when I make something for a client, I am putting my name and reputation on the line. If I leave something raw and unfinished, someone will invariably look back there, and raise holy hell. So I just take the extra time and do things right. When I see those babes putting together a table, or cabinet top, and they leave all those ugly holes on the bottom, or inside portions of the project, I just shake my head and sigh. I've even written many of them and suggested they take the next step and consider something more advanced than Kreg. But they don't bother replying. They are already dialed in to the different company sponsors, and aren't quite ready for graduation into the next level.

But still, where were these women when I was looking for that perfect companion? We've come a long way anyway.


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## a1Jim

Greg
Good for you ,your better off in the shop than watching TV.


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## bandit571

Most of what I learned was in Industrial Arts classes in high school ( Class of 71)

Norm got me to working in my wood shops. Learned a few more skills, and not all were of the power tool only kind.

Kept watching some crazy guy who had a brick floor in his shop, a stuffed Turkey on a shelf, and his cut fingers almost matched mine.

First saw Phillips working from a shop that had a long bank of windows right over the bench.

Tried to follow The Router Workshop….failed
tried to follow Woodsmith Shop…fell asleep

mainly just went out and got to building something. Whether it was chest of drawers ( sold over 130 of them) toy chest/hope chest( gave up counting them) or the "Benchwork" for an HO Train layout ( The Springfield & Quincy Northern) Or just decks for the house.

Biggest thing was just to go out and try. That FIRST chest of drawers was made to win a bet. Simple, little three drawer thing. Took about a week to do and deliver to him.


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## a1Jim

Hey John
I know one of the online"designers" that have pretty good designs but in the plan she post she has the newB install breadboard ends with pocket screws with no regards to wood movement.


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## ArlinEastman

I can say that Kreg was very nice and sent me a free K5 with a lot of screws. I hope the vets like me will be able to do some easy case work.

I hope this will encourage them to make more things later. Now I mostly teach wood turning and some Hand tool use. We lack a lot of hand tools to do a lot of things.


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## jkl103144

> Hey John
> I know one of the online"designers" that have pretty good designs but in the plan she post she has the newB install breadboard ends with pocket screws with no regards to wood movement.
> 
> - a1Jim


I'd like to see that one.

Here's something I just finished and am about to hang over at my friend's furniture/consignment place. No pocket hole screws there.








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http://ai-jane.org/bb/attachment.php?aid=308[/img[/URL]]

I have ordered 3/16" thick, 1" wide steel sheet strips to be inset and screwed into the the vertical door length, both left and right. That should eliminate any warpage.

Shucks, my using "html" here isn't working is it? What are the ways to insert pictures the easy way here at LumberJocks?


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## a1Jim

bandit
Yep good old Norm got me motivated too.That's the best way is go out to the shop and go for it.

Arlin 
Thanks for your service and sacrifice and for sharing what you know with other fine vets.


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## alittleoff

I bought the latest Kreg pocket hole jig about 2 or 3 months ago. I also bought 2 of the large packs of screw assortments along with it. I could hardly wait until I got it all set up and build something with it. As of today I have not used it any. Not one little project, even a picture frame. It's all set up on a nice peice of maple plywood, slid in under my work table waiting for something. It seems like, if I start a project I just don't mess with it because I don't want to see those ugly holes anywhere. Even hidden, I know their there and don't want it. I guess I'll use it one day for something but really don't know what.
Gerald


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## Eric_S

Jim, along the same lines… one of the first woodworking books I bought 5 years ago when I was starting out I bought because of all the cool projects it had in it and thought I'd learn woodworking using this book.

When I got home to really look at it, I was thoroughly disappointed. I hadn't noticed at the bookstore. EVERY project in it was constructed of nothing but biscuit joinery, and screws when needed. I still have the book but haven't touched it since. What a waste of a purchase.

I might have been new to woodworking but I knew that biscuit joinery was not traditional joinery and I wanted to learn everything there was about woodworking, not just the shortcuts. Biscuit joinery does have its uses, but I'm a firm believer in learning from the ground up or else the art and skills are lost.

Eric


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## a1Jim

Here you go John

http://ana-white.com/2012/11/plans/farmhouse-table-updated-pocket-hole-plans

Hey Gerald 
there's nothing wrong with playing with a new tool,but maybe you won't want to use it on a project with expensive wood or a project that's really important.


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## a1Jim

I've been there done that Eric,given much of what I have learned is from books given there was no internet then.


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## bandit571

Anyone is welcome to come over to the Dungeon Shop, and pick up as many "pointers" as they can carry back home. Note: I usually teach things as HANDS ON. I show a item to try, then I stand back while they try it themselves. Cost? just your gas money to motor over here.

Although I'm about 35-40 miles north east of Scott Phillips home, we are worlds apart in how we do a task….
Pm if needed.

Farmhouse Table????


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## a1Jim

Bandit
John asked to see the plans on the home the designer that attached the bread board ends on a table with pocket screws not allowing for wood movement.


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## jkl103144

Eric, you're right. Biscuit joinery is the modern answer for dowels, that's all. Its new age, but it does a much better job than pocket holes, is much sturdier, and there are no unsightly leftovers.

Jim, Yeah she's the overall matriarch of the woodworking blog scene. No telling how many people are constantly trying to get on to her site, for the exposure value. I'll say this: she's pretty good at computer graphics, where she fills in for a contributor's good project. But like most of them, she is stuck on Kreg, Ryobi, Ridgid, and one or two brand names, so she has them lying around, all over the place in her videos.

However, my favorite babe is April Wilkerson, over at www.http://wilkerdos.com . She is something else. The way she handles plywood almost effortlessly, uses her air system, table saw, spot welding, brazing, and a host of other manly things, I am in Love. Between her, and Ariele Alasko, they are my two favorite heartthrobs. April can do just about anything she puts her mind to. If you do a search for "Ariele Alasko" you will see some of the most beautiful craftsmanship, and projects using plaster lath. She's been in several magazines and her reputation is growing by leaps and bounds. And best of all, she's a dog person.


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## Tugboater78

Bandit, though you are still a fair distance from me, i disnt realize you were as close as you are. Maybe one day i will take a roadtrip up your way and take you up on the offer!


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## bandit571

Justin: You are welcome anytime. If you need a phone number, PM.

Dungeon Shop IS a bit on the small size, but i have had up to two people at a time….

If there is even notice..the Boss will even fix lunch.


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## a1Jim

Maybe she's the matriarch but her plans have messed up atleast ahalf dozen people here on lJs because of the wood movement issue on the breadboard ends.

April Wilkerson looks like she cranked out a lot of projects.

But this gal Greta de Parry has my vote ,going from tree to furniture


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## jkl103144

Oh Yeah! I agree. I'm going to have to add her to the list of babes I really like. And she's a fox. I like watching her do all that heavy lifting too.


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## a1Jim

Married 48 years I better not have a response to that ) Of course it' was her woodworking abilities that caught my attention.


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## wormil

If I go to a guy's house and he has a cabinet or table put together with pocket screws I'll clap him on the back and say well done because the guy (or gal) has built something with their own hands and that is always better than the alternative.

And no one owes anything to newbie woodworkers. Never before in history has information been so readily available. If someone wants to know the right way to do something there is no excuse for not knowing it. You have the internet, television, and public libraries (with internet). If you are reading this, you have access to an information device that was science fiction when I was a kid. And yes, sometimes there is bad information on the internet (and on television, and in books) but no one says you have to learn from only one person. Matter of fact it's the free access to information that has resulted in the explosive growth of woodworking as a hobby. Once upon a time you apprenticed yourself and learned one way of doing things. Now you can go to a library and pick up some books by Tage Frid and learn a lifetime of woodworking experience.


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## TheFridge

If you want to strictly build stuff, then pockets screws are awesome. They have their place.

If you are looking to learn joinery, then pocket screws will probably be restricted to shop furniture or things that need to done quick. I use them for quick shop shelves and face frames but that's about it. I may try mortise and tenon face frames on some smaller projects in the future just to have another tool in the chest so to speak.

they don't belong in the category of fine joinery but the have their uses at times.


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## BurlyBob

Jim I totally agree with you about Scott Phillips. He seems like a really nice guy but I don't care for his woodworking. I have to tell you that his show never ceases to disappoint me. How he can take some beautiful wood and ruin it with those lazy, worthless pocket holes is beyond me. Apparently he doesn't read lumberjocks.


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## stefang

Hi Jim, I share your dislike of pocket hole joinery in my own work except for more traditional uses, but I have the impression that you are not really criticizing pocket hole joinery as such, but that you are more concerned about it becoming a standard which would diminish woodworking and woodworkers in general.

I kind of doubt that will happen. My guess is that many of those new woodworkers will be searching the net just like we do and finding other ways to do things after they get tired of just using a screw driver. Just look at the amazing renaissance that hand tools are enjoying. Also, for every guy teaching pocket hole joinery there must be at least a hundred or maybe a thousand more teaching traditional joinery.

I do think that it really doesn't matter what kind of tools or techniques we use as long as we are enjoying ourselves or at least getting some kind of satisfaction from our hobby.


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## Redneck_in_MA

I don't care for his show also. I agree with BurlyBob and many of the others. Allot of the projects he does the style is just a little to simple. The projects need something. Just a little to plain.

I really don't care for any of the others that are on tv. Tommy Mac with his "Ok guys" every ten seconds. Roy Underhill you can go hit the bathroom and come back and not miss anything. I do watch The Woodsmith Shop, but allot of their projects are a little plain also. They seem like nice guys but a little to monotone.

My fav was Norm Abrahms.

My $0.02


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## robscastle

I have a Kreg Pocket Hole Jig, and use it on a non regular basis.
My son and I just finished making a Portable Bar and used pocket holes in some parts of the frame
The slats were brad nailed and glued to the frames, a fairly simple and lightweight construction.

All the timber was recycled pallet material apart from the HDF shelves.

If I was asked to compare pocket holes to conventional joinery I would say its similar to Ikea furniture and Craftsman built furniture. So in saying that its got its place in cost effective joinery

If you take a look at some of David Deans work it shows his excellent trade mark finish, and in most cases David's frames are pocket hole joinery methodology.

I think there is a place for the method and I would have no problems in its application, but as a few post elude to its just another joining method and has a limited place in the workshop.
For instance you would not use a pocket hole where a dovetail or other joint would be better suited.

Pocket hole joints have a role in pre prepared flat pack joinery, but I dont think I have ever seen it used.

It takes some level of skill to produce good pocket hole joints but in saying that if its the only method known, its possibly time to step out of the comfort zone and take a challenge on skill set update.


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## rwe2156

I've watched all those guys and I think I learned more ww'ing from the FWW videos than any other place.

I especially like Mike Pekovitch, Phillip Rowe and Garrick Hack. Frank Klausz has had the greatest influence on me.

I've watched Tommy Mac back when he was just shooting videos out of his shop and that was much better than the slick show he has now.

I think you have to consider who the target audiences are for guys like Phillips and Norm.

I think they're all great and I love Norm but I just cringe when he pulls out that air nailer!

I really think all those shows are more like "look what I built" rather than teaching.

How many guys besides me watch those shows, then go to the shop and either feel like a dummy or a hack?

Ultimately, there is no substitute for self-teaching.

I mostly watch those guys now just to pick up some little short cut or nuance.


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## Woodmaster1

I watched the American Woodshop yesterday and Scott used dovetails on the drawers. He also used pocket holes on the cabinet as well. I agree he uses pocket holes too much. I think we forget that Norm also used pocket holes on projects but not as much as Scott. I remember Norm using the high dollar pocket hole machine. Scott promotes safety more than most. He never uses the table saw without a blade guard for clarity.


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## Pezking7p

While I always question the real strength difference between pocket screws and say, m&t, there is an obvious difference in craftsmanship and skill.

I'm always a "to each his own" kind of guy and you can really crank out a lot of nice projects quickly using pocket screws. 99% of people will never know the difference between the two types of joinery and half of the remaining 1% probably wouldn't care, so I say unless you're building for that 0.5%, why bother?

However, I fall in that 0.5% so you won't catch me making any fine furniture for myself with pocket holes.


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## hairy

Hand tool people look down their nose on power tool people. Woodturners are divided over tradition vs. new technology. I've seen some epic battles between tool snobs and Harbor Freight fans. Can't we all just get along?

At times, they all are the right tool for the job.

I watch all the ww'ing shows that are available here. They all try to do too much in not enough time.


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## hairy

> , but i have had up to two people at a time….
> 
> - bandit571


 I love that line, I'm stealing it.


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## jkl103144

> Married 48 years I better not have a response to that ) Of course it was her woodworking abilities that caught my attention.
> 
> - a1Jim


I've been divorced for 21 years, and at my advanced age, I'm not about to take another chance at craziness. But I can dream though.


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## a1Jim

Thanks for your input guys.


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## endgrainy

Interesting thread. With regards to the original question, I agree that the "American Woodshop" is not preventing new woodworkers from learning other joinery methods. As stated, it's just one of many, many different approaches that are all very accessible in the Information Age.

With YouTube and the Internet, anyone who's interested in delving deeper into wodworking can learn … really anything. I learned everything I know (still not that much  in woodworking from the Internet, books, and magazines.

I think the bigger issue here is what's the "right" way to do something. We woodworkers are a small niche in the much larger DIY/Maker culture. I am impressed with the following Ana White, et al, have generated. Their strength is that they are much more approachable than the master woodworkers. Pocket holes jig and a chop saw Vs table saw, smoothing plane, and dovetail saw? Not hard to see where a beginner who just wants to make something would turn.

If a person who would've gone to Walmart and purchased a side table decides to buy some home center lumber, cut it with a jig saw, and use pocket screws to assemble it - that's awesome! Creativity and hard work win out over convenience. If that person wants to learn more about traditional woodworking, then great. If instead, they want to get into metal or concrete, electrical components or fabrics, also great.

If pocket screws bring someone the satisfaction of making something - not just buying another cheap piece of mass produced furniture, then I'm cool with the fact that it's not "real" joinery. My choice was to go further down the woodworking path, so I may not personally like pocket screws, but to each their own,

There's a whole big "maker" world out there - and it's all worthwhile in some way.


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## a1Jim

Lot's of good points Endgrainy 
I guess I was approaching the subject as if TV is the only source of learning woodworking ,which was true when I was learning woodworking, that and books. My point of view is rather antiquated in that respect. I guess I'm a bit of a woodworking snob even though there are many folks much more talented that may fault my approach to any particular skill or operation and say I'm leading newBs in the wrong direction.


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## Neptuno

The problem resides in the term "Woodworker", I think. It is too broad, it defines anyone that works with wood? Because it is obvious to me, with my traditional training, that one that uses screws for furniture joints is not a proper woodworker. Screws "cut" the wood fibers, allowing moisture to penetrate, eventually leading to failure of the joint, as they start to disintegrate and get loose. Nails are way better, in that they enter by squeezing the fibers aside, and forming a moisture resistance path. Nails do have their place in a few fine furniture applications, screws should be the last option.


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## rwe2156

Let me add Charles Neil to that list.

What I like about him is instead of editing out the mistakes he shows everything plus how to correct them without starting over. One of the neatest tricks I learned from him is splining a door to take a warp out.

I would love to spend a week at some of the ww'ing schools. I have never taken an actual ww'ing class, mostly because I can't 1) take off work or 2) afford the $1500++

There are ww'ing classes at my local Woodcraft (90% turning) and Highland Hardware is 5hrs away, but none of the classes are really for me.

In my perfect world I would have one of those guys over my shoulder …....
Until then, its practice, practice, practice.


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## CJIII

I think Scott Phillips, do use a lot pocket hole screws in what is call fine furniture. I like pocket hole screws to build face frames and that's it.


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## a1Jim

Neptuno I think thats a valid point, who or what is a woodworker ?

rwe2156 
No secret here Charles is my favourite too.


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## bandit571

One could just read a few of my blogs…...

Shop is about…60% hand tool, the rest is power tools. COPD is keeping me from doing a lot of handsawing. Don't have a stable of molding planes. But, chisels and planes? Might have just enough to get something done.

I do not look down my nose at other's style of working wood. It is their way, and I have mine, simple as that.

The point that sets me off…...."Without the $$$$Brand XYZ, one just can't be a SERIOUS woodworker" 
That statement has turned way too many new woodworkers away from this craft..they think they HAVE to buy a shop full of expensive tools, BEFORE any attempt can be made…..which is total BS. 
Mr. Hepplewhaite would be buying a Hammer? Yeah, right. But, look at what he made without all those fancy tools.

maybe set up a basic "Kit" for beginners to start out with? The bare basics, less than $100 would be fine. Show them things to do with just this set, about like an apprentise would be shown. Then, as they progress, they can add to the kit. And, it would be THEIR Kit of tools. Suited to what THEY want to do. maybe we should draw up a Basic Tool Kit for beginners?


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## jdmaher

Well, I don't use pocket holes much, but I still enjoy watching the show. And I gotta respect almost 30 years showing woodworking on PBS. Along with Roy, Scott has provided a pretty great service showing off our craft for so long.

I do have to admit my original inspiration was Norm.

Might be nice to be a little more balanced, but I can (and have) learned other techniques from other sources. I wish these guys continued success; it does us all good to show the world our passion so regularly and so well for so long.


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## a1Jim

bandit
I think that is the way it was done in schools years gone by and perhaps is still done in countries that still have master woodworker programs ,but given the background of folks on ljs the list could range from a sharpened teaspoon to a shop like Norm had. I agree that beautiful work can be done with limited space and tools,after all some of the masters whose beautiful works has sold in the millions only had basic tools.


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## sras

I watched the show referenced in the OP and had the same conclusion.

Lots of good comments, but I think what didn't fit for me was the use of a very nice piece of stained glass artwork and then using pocket screws for the doors. Just seemed like a mismatch between the materials and the effort.

Just my reaction - not saying it was wrong.


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## a1Jim

I agree Jim
Different strokes for different folks.
It would be nice if and when Scott retires that they have someone that can do a little more upscale work Like Charles Neil even though I doubt he would want to tie himself up with a show like that.


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## Holbs

In my auction hunts, I won a lot that included a Kreg system with a container of their screws. It sat collecting dust for 3 years. I never wanted to learn the easy way of joinery no matter the temptation, during my start into the wood working realm. Same for the overuse of dowels or biscuits. Classic joinery for this guy. For I have always believed, blood sweat & tears is the true way to pursue goals. I gave the Kreg system to Salvation Army on Friday. I am jumping into the cabinet construction phase of my learning venture. I may return to the Kreg system later on (for pocket screws DO serve a purpose), but for right now I need to learn the foundation of cabinet joinery. Having that system at hand was too tempting when looking at breadboard doors, stiles & rails, face frames, etc.


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## ArlinEastman

I guess these shows made a difference in my life when they were on

1. New Yankee Work Shop - He did some great projects and made it seem easy to do all of them
2. Router workshop - They did some amazing things with just a router
3. Wood Wright shop with Roy Underhill - I just loved how he did so much just by hand and where he went to show everyone Blacksmithing, Printing press, in England about building old houses and so many other things like that.

Although I never did any woodworking until after I was in the bombing in the middle east I still enjoyed watching.


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## Jim Jakosh

Hi Jim. I met Scott at a seminar here in GR and I like him. I learned some stuff from him on sharpening that I use every week .I do not watch hardly any woodworking show and have not see him. Personally I like and use dowels.

When you mentioned that about pocket screws, my first thought is that he is paid by Kreg and therefore hawks their methods ( Kind of like Dr. Oz is peddling all kinds of drugs). Too bad they get a hold on guys like that.

I do agree with you on pocket screw placement. Even though they make those matching wood plugs for the holes, I feel they should be hidden if you use them as they are not a fine looking wood joint, but they work fine!
I had one occasion that I had them in the inside of the space being show and I veneered over them for just that reason.

I like Scott but I guess everyone has to do their own thing. Big money runs this country!
Jim


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## CharlesA

> Eric, you re right. Biscuit joinery is the modern answer for dowels, that s all. Its new age, but it does a much better job than pocket holes, is much sturdier, and there are no unsightly leftovers.
> - John L


I'm curious about the evidence for this claim. Biscuit joinery is "much sturdier" than pocket holes? I don't use them much anymore, but I have constructed three cabinets using pocket holes, and they are rock solid after much use. I'm no engineer, but pocket screws, in that particular application, strikes me as about as strong as one can get. There are other applications where pocket screws are not as strong as other joints, but I can't think of a joint where biscuits would make it stronger.


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## a1Jim

Holbs It's great you want to learn "Classic" joinery ,enjoy the journey.

Arlin of the shows you mentioned I also watched Norm and Roy and enjoyed their work and projects.

Jim
Like I said above Scott ,he seems like the kind of person you could be friends with. Like many folks on many TV shows my pet peeve on his show is with some of his techniques,like his overuse of pocket screws. As I said earlier Scott overused them long before Kreg was his sponsor. 
I have thought about using the same technique as what you had done veneering over the plugs and holes, if someone feels they have no other choice but to use pocket screws. The plugs they sell or that you can make help to some degree but still stand out in a finished project. 
I also agree that Scott has some techniques worth learning, but when my students ask about woodworking TV shows American woodworker is not on my recommended list. I love Scotts demeanor and caring attitude and I know many others do too or he would not have been on the air all these years .


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## jkl103144

> Eric, you re right. Biscuit joinery is the modern answer for dowels, that s all. Its new age, but it does a much better job than pocket holes, is much sturdier, and there are no unsightly leftovers.
> - John L
> 
> I m curious about the evidence for this claim. Biscuit joinery is "much sturdier" than pocket holes? I don t use them much anymore, but I have constructed three cabinets using pocket holes, and they are rock solid after much use. I m no engineer, but pocket screws, in that particular application, strikes me as about as strong as one can get. There are other applications where pocket screws are not as strong as other joints, but I can t think of a joint where biscuits would make it stronger.
> 
> - CharlesA


Alright, perhaps not "Much" sturdier, but sturdier. Also as an added plus, under normal stresses they will tend to keep their alignment much better. If the wood expands and contracts, the pressure applied to the joint and screws will tend to pull the two pieces out of alignment.

I have a pocket hole jig, and sometimes use it. But I also have done this several different ways. The others take longer, and I view the pocket hole jig as mostly a time convenience issue. It saves a lot of time, but there are compromises that have to be made in the process.


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## bandit571

Pocket hole jigs are just a simple way to make a joint that just was made by hand….chisel and gouge to make the "pocket", drill a pilot hole and connect the top to the base. To be found in many an Antique table, just look up under around the aprons…..nothing new, just been updated is all….


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## a1Jim

I guess it has to do with a lot of things,the size of the material being joined the amount of biscuits versus pocket screws, On say a face frame with say 2" material I think I'd have to get pocket screws my vote,


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## a1Jim

Your right bandit depending on the era the furniture was made many of the mass production stuff made even back to the early 1900s have pocket screws,but the were not the only joinery they used.


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## CharlesA

> Eric, you re right. Biscuit joinery is the modern answer for dowels, that s all. Its new age, but it does a much better job than pocket holes, is much sturdier, and there are no unsightly leftovers.
> - John L
> 
> I m curious about the evidence for this claim. Biscuit joinery is "much sturdier" than pocket holes? I don t use them much anymore, but I have constructed three cabinets using pocket holes, and they are rock solid after much use. I m no engineer, but pocket screws, in that particular application, strikes me as about as strong as one can get. There are other applications where pocket screws are not as strong as other joints, but I can t think of a joint where biscuits would make it stronger.
> 
> - CharlesA
> 
> Alright, perhaps not "Much" sturdier, but sturdier. Also as an added plus, under normal stresses they will tend to keep their alignment much better. If the wood expands and contracts, the pressure applied to the joint and screws will tend to pull the two pieces out of alignment.
> 
> I have a pocket hole jig, and sometimes use it. But I also have done this several different ways. The others take longer, and I view the pocket hole jig as mostly a time convenience issue. It saves a lot of time, but there are compromises that have to be made in the process.
> 
> - John L


If you have wood expansion problems with plywood cabinets, then I endorse biscuits all the way.


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## jkl103144

> I guess it has to do with a lot of things,the size of the material being joined the amount of biscuits versus pocket screws, On say a face frame with say 2" material I think I d have to get pocket screws my vote,
> 
> - a1Jim


I agree. I have no problem with say 1" or thicker. The screw can be sunk in deeper and gain more holding power. But with a 3/4" or less thickness, It just lacks enough to hold things tightly, unless pocket holes galore are the used.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

I agree Jim. Seems to me he brings the Ikea concept to woodworking.


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## Wally331

I don't think a lot of new woodworkers are looking to tv for learning woodworking. For the most part there is a huge new influx of woodworkers and makers relying only on the internet. A lot of people will start out watching Steve Ramsey's videos, and then move on to something like the WoodWhisperer, while gaining additional knowledge from forums such as this. I personally don't see much future in tv woodworking- any of the young people will just use the internet where you can find exactly what you need for free, no waiting around for a tv episode, and a lot of young people aren't even getting cable any longer.
As other people have mentioned if someone wants to actually learn fine woodworking they will pretty quickly move on from pocket holes. For the average homeowner making a nice cooler stand and outdoor projects they are just fine and I think most people realize that. I'm not trying to put Scott Philips down at all, but in the overall scope of the woodworking community I don;t think his work has much influence.


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## emart

Pocket screws definitely have their place but I usually prefer other methods most of the time. This reminds me of the new yankee workshop when Norm Abram would use some $10,000 piece of machinery that most people would never have a chance to even see much less use in their lifetime.

Even though I don't do a lot of handwork I still prefer the woodwrights shop since you learn how wood behaves and how to work around shortcomings instead of using "expensive sponsor endorsed tool #5"


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## emart

> Eric, you re right. Biscuit joinery is the modern answer for dowels, that s all. Its new age, but it does a much better job than pocket holes, is much sturdier, and there are no unsightly leftovers.
> - John L
> 
> I m curious about the evidence for this claim. Biscuit joinery is "much sturdier" than pocket holes? I don t use them much anymore, but I have constructed three cabinets using pocket holes, and they are rock solid after much use. I m no engineer, but pocket screws, in that particular application, strikes me as about as strong as one can get. There are other applications where pocket screws are not as strong as other joints, but I can t think of a joint where biscuits would make it stronger.
> 
> - CharlesA


There's actually a good experiment that Matthias Wandel did using different types of joinery. Pocket holes were by far the weakest: http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html


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## CharlesA

That was on a particular type of joint-I agree that pocket holes are weaker there than some other joints-I was speaking specifically of plywood cabinets.


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## AlaskaGuy

I pretty much limit my use of pocket holes to face frames.

Random thoughts

Sometimes failure is the best teacher.

Some times we over build not ever joint need the strength of a M&T

Not every piece we build is intended to last 100 years

I have a friend who built a couple of end tables and a coffee table some years ago with all pocket screws. No problems so far.


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## a1Jim

Thanks Bob
Good point Wally the same thing I agreed to earlier
emart Re the link you posted I don't see biscuits included.All said and done butt joints,pocket screws,biscuits,and dowels all are relatively weak joints.
Alaskaguy
I think pocket screws will hold up ok in some case work if you use enough of them and their not subjected to side impact,but if their visible their still unsightly.


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## emart

> Thanks Bob
> Good point Wally the same thing I agreed to earlier
> emart Re the link you posted I don t see biscuits included.All said and done butt joints,pocket screws,biscuits,and dowels all are relatively weak joints.
> Alaskaguy
> I think pocket screws will hold up ok in some case work if you use enough of them and their not subjected to side impact,but if their visible their still unsightly.
> 
> - a1Jim


I do wish he included biscuits and spline joints in his experiment since i use both frequently whenever i have to glue up a table top.

In all honesty I wish I could do more mortise and tenon joints but I need a better drill press and chisels.


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## HamS

My .02

I am a weekend wood worker. I learned from my grandfather. If I want a box built Now I use screws. If I want it to look a little nicer, i'll use pocket holes and try to hide the pockets. If I am building an heirloom, glue and good joinery. The key to this is I didn't start out making great stuff, I used nails and relised they really looked amateurish. Grandpa told me that, but hey, I knew better. 40 years later, I realize grandpa was pretty smart.


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## a1Jim

emart 
There's really no need for splines ,biscuits or anything but properly jointed edges to glue up a table top.

Oh well hams,as time passes we all relize mom,dad, and gramps really did know something )


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## DBordello

I am a 6 month novice. I have never seen Scott Phillips. Like Wally said, the internet is my primary source of knowledge. If I need to know how to make something, I need to know now. I don't have time to wait for it to air on TV. Steve Ramsey and the Wood Whisperer are great. Now, they have an excellent back collection as well.

I own a Kreg Jig. I think it is great for jumping in and starting to build things. To be honest, complex joinery requires extensive time, and equipment. This can lead to frustration. A newbie can pickup the Kreg jig and start building, and I think this is a good primer towards more advanced joints. I personally have never made a mortise and tenon, and am a bit intimidated. However, I plan to when the time is right.

I can't imagine Scott is doing any harm.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

> I can t imagine Scott is doing any harm.
> 
> - DBordello


Its not that he is doing any harm per se, just promoting a lower standard.


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## a1Jim

Dbordello
Thanks for your input and letting us know where you gather your woodworking info from.
Like all joinery you select the best joinery for the project you're making ,if all your ever going to make doesn't require a stronger better looking joints then pocket screws are fine ,but you will never know if you pocket screws are strong enough or not for the projects particularly if you're following a supposed online expert that doesn't know either. 
Right now you're enjoying some aspect of woodworking and that's great,later on you may want to take the next step and try out some traditional joinery.
Enjoy!


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## mramseyISU

I've woodworking off and on for over 20 years now starting in 7th grade shop and I've never heard of this guy. I just started getting serious about it about 3-4 years ago but grew up watching Norm and more recently the Woodsmith Shop. I do like using pocket screws though, used properly the can be a quick and easy way to build something. They definitely aren't the be-all and end-all of jointery but I really like using them along with glue where they don't show. I've got a biscuit jointer I bought because of all the time watching Norm and I have to say I almost never use it. I say lets look at what you're trying to accomplish and use whatever is good enough for what you're trying to do. Sometimes that's a pocket screw sometimes that's an old school mortise and tenon joint.


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## jmartel

> To be honest, complex joinery requires extensive time, and *equipment*. This can lead to frustration.
> 
> - DBordello


Takes time, yes, but not a lot of equipment. Equipment just makes it easier/faster.

Minimum requirements that I can think of:

Mortise & Tenon - Mallet and a chisel
Dovetail - Mallet, chisel, hand saw, marking knife (can be an x-acto knife even)
Dowel - Drill bit and mallet
Half Lap - Hand Saw
Rabbet - Rabbet Plane or Tablesaw
Dado - Tablesaw, Router, or Plow plane

A Hand saw, wooden mallet (that you can make yourself out of scrap), and 3-4 chisels will get you started. That can be done very cheaply, <$50.

I started with a cheap pockethole guide. Now it only gets pulled out for shop storage projects or jigs. Nothing that leaves the shop.


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## jkl103144

> There s actually a good experiment that Matthias Wandel did using different types of joinery. Pocket holes were by far the weakest: http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html
> 
> - emart


Hey, that's a great reference. Thanks. Too bad he didn't also include the biscuits as well. I'm curious to know the average pressure required for them as well.

Anyway, thanks for the link.


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## jmartel

> bad he didn t also include the biscuits as well. I m curious to know the average pressure required for them as well.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the link.
> 
> - John L


FWW also did a test and if I recall they weren't much stronger than Pocket Holes. Strongest is half-lap and Bridle Joints, followed by M&T.


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## bondogaposis

I think if he encourages any body to make something then that is a good thing. Some will stay w/ pocket screws and others will move more deeply into wood working as they gain skills. So if he encourages new people into woodworking because it looks easy, that is still a step up from going to IKEA and getting some PB crap that could be easily made at home better. Nothing breeds success like success, if a first pocket screw project turns out functional and useful a person will be encouraged to try something more challenging and so begins the journey. I don't see him as preventing wood workers from moving beyond pocket screws but rather getting people who are not wood workers into trying to make something.


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## Blackie_

I've used Pocket hole joinery on a lot of my projects but it's not the only joinery I use, I do agree that there's a large margin out there and the young need to think outside of the box and not focus on one thing, my mom and dads house was built back in the early 60s, the builder that built the house clustered nails together for cabinet joinery and it was a pain to knock out.


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## rwe2156

> That was on a particular type of joint-I agree that pocket holes are weaker there than some other joints-I was speaking specifically of plywood cabinets.
> 
> - CharlesA


They're even weaker!!


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## rwe2156

> I have a friend who built a couple of end tables and a coffee table some years ago with all pocket screws. No problems so far. - AlaskaGuy


I'll bet he used glue…...


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## rwe2156

> I own a Kreg Jig. I think it is great for jumping in and starting to build things. To be honest, complex joinery requires extensive time, and equipment. This can lead to frustration. A newbie can pickup the Kreg jig and start building, and I think this is a good primer towards more advanced joints. I personally have never made a mortise and tenon, and am a bit intimidated. However, I plan to when the time is right.
> - DBordello


I think, no I'm pretty certain, you will come to a place in your ww'ing where you will realize screwing joints together is, well, to put it bluntly, not really in the realm of "craftsmanship" but rather a more mundane pedestrian way of ww'ing. Dont' get me wrong - I have used and do use pocket screws, but I have to go through a decision making process to justify using them. They are certainly not my first choice in joinery.

Saying something will stay together isn't all of it. Saying that it will stay together as part of your own art and craftsmanship is where you will hopefully arrive at one day. A good part of the enjoyment of this hobby is in the making: the process, the development and refinement of one's skills.

Yes, the objective is building something and in the beginning this is the attraction and motivation. But you will come to a point where you won't want to simply say "I built it", but you will value the inner satisfaction of being able to say "I built it like the masters did." That may be totally the old fashioned way or that may be with power machines, but either way, THIS is the thing that separate the "craftsman" from the guys just out there building stuff.

I think we get into a production mode sometimes in our ww'ing and I know I need to step back a minute and remind myself my workshop is not a factory and the reason I do ww'ing is not simply to build things.


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## TarHeelz

Backing up to the original post for a moment, let's consider whether some of our opposition to pocket hole joinery is cultural, rather than built upon some objective criteria.

We concede that a pocket hole is as strong or stronger than other forms of joinery.

We object to the visibility of pocket hole joinery (even when filled with plugs), yet we often express no concerns with:
+ The visibility of exposed dowels in table breadboard ends.
+ The visibility of exposed tenons in a thru mortise and tenon.
+ The visibility of through dovetails.
+ The visibility of unstopped dadoes.
+ The use of plugs to cover (gasp) screw together joinery on Greene & Greene furniture.


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## jmartel

Here's a copy of the FWW joint strength test. Pocket holes did OK, but certainly not as good as other traditional means of joinery.

http://paul-flores.com/downloads/Joinery_Failure.pdf


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## a1Jim

Tar Heelz
Sorry to disagree,but I don't think we have concluded that Pocket screws are stong or stronger than other joinery ,actually the only jont weaker is a butt joint .
What's visible on a table's bread board ends are pegs not dowels,no one I know would have an exposed pocket screw on top of their bread board end.
All of the other items are structural and attractive except for the ones that are poor workmanship
I get your point about the issue possibly being cultural or perhaps generational but pocket screws are not good replacements for any of the type of joinery you used as an example.


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## jkl103144

> I think if he encourages any body to make something then that is a good thing. Some will stay w/ pocket screws and others will move more deeply into wood working as they gain skills. So if he encourages new people into woodworking because it looks easy, that is still a step up from going to IKEA and getting some PB crap that could be easily made at home better. Nothing breeds success like success, if a first pocket screw project turns out functional and useful a person will be encouraged to try something more challenging and so begins the journey. I don t see him as preventing wood workers from moving beyond pocket screws but rather getting people who are not wood workers into trying to make something.
> 
> - bondogaposis


Bondo, I believe you are right here.


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## jkl103144

> Here s a copy of the FWW joint strength test. Pocket holes did OK, but certainly not as good as other traditional means of joinery.
> 
> http://paul-flores.com/downloads/Joinery_Failure.pdf
> 
> - jmartel


Thanks "J".


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## a1Jim

*"Is Scott Phillips (American Woodworker) preventing new woodworkers from learning proper Joinery ?"*

I'd say the answer to my original question after taking all your comments into account Is NO not significantly.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

> Backing up to the original post for a moment, let s consider whether some of our opposition to pocket hole joinery is cultural, rather than built upon some objective criteria.
> 
> - TarHeelz


I'd say yes, for sure. Just like fishing should be with a fly rod, not a spinning reel ;-)


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## wormil

Joinery strength tests are for sucking in viewers, they are largely irrelevant to the real world.

Yeah, Scott Phillips is not influencing woodworking because his show isn't good and hardly anyone watches it. He's also a control freak around his guests. He might be the nicest guy on Earth but his show is what it is. The future of woodworking video is on the internet, not on television. Shows like Phillips and Tommy Mac are largely an anachronism.


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## HamS

> ... The future of woodworking video is on the internet, not on television. Shows like Phillips and Tommy Mac are largely an anachronism.
> 
> - Rick M.


The future of the video side of it, but the real learning happens one on one in countless shops around the world, neighbor teaching neighbor. father teaching son, some people paying for experts, all are ways the craft is being advanced, but the one common factor is people are actually working wood. In many ways this discussion has overtones of religion to it. The new versus old, innovation vs. orthodoxy. It is an interesting way to spend the time while the glue dries. I suspect the same was being said about how we were going to learn finishing skills 150 years ago when premixed varnish in cans were introduced.


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## SirIrb

Like you, Jim, They have their place in production cabinet work. And, as you said, faceframes. Other than that I cant get on the pocket screw bandwagon. I used the old PC pocket screw machine for quite some time, it was only on faceframes. They work good when you are setup with a pneumatic ram on a table. I have heard so many talk about making table tops etc etc using this method. It is a unnecessary and maybe unstable way around other methods which work better.

What channel do you watch all the wood working shows? All I am familiar with is St. Roy on PBS. That dude's show has been around since I was a wee lad.


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## TheDane

> What channel do you watch all the wood working shows?


In most locales, they can be found on the 'Create' channel, which is generally a secondary or tertiary channel of your local PBS station. See: http://createtv.com/


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## Ken90712

Jim I agree, I watched the same show, that I taped on my DVR. While I use pocket holes here and there if I ever did use them in a door even if its a shop cabinet door. I would at least take the time to pug them and make them look better than just a hole with a screw in it.


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## BurlyBob

Thank goodness. Looks Like Scott Phillips series is over for another year in my neck of the woods. I'm thinking the Woodsmith shop is next in the rotation. At least they keep my attention without Kreg pocket holes!


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## a1Jim

I think PBS runs Scott Phillips because they don't know any better.


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## BurlyBob

I've certainly got to agree with you there. His is a show of last resort.


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## bruc101

Our youngest daughter, age 15, and I just watched Scott Phillips build his Chippendale Highboy. She already has a kitchen build in our commercial to her resume and now she wants to build a highboy. We have plans to highboys and she will use one of those. She has already built several pieces of Chippendale furniture the traditional way.

She wanted to watch some videos of a highboy being built and she found the one by Scott Phillips. She watched it and never said a word while watching the video.

When the video was over she said….disgusting, but he does know how to use power tools and his expertise in woodworking seems to be with pocket screws. What a waste of beautiful wood and ruining the integrity of a Chippendale Highboy.

End of her conversation.

And by the way..she thinks Charles Neil is a "kool dude" and enjoys watching his videos and learns from them.

Her shop project this summer was working with a well respected lady basketmaker and built her a kitchen island. The lady taught and helped her weave the rear panels in it out of white oak. They install it next week and I'll put pics up of it so you can see it. She turned the legs out of cherry and built the island out of curley maple.


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## BurlyBob

I totally agree with you and your daughter. The show I watch a year of so back is the one that made me sick to my stomach was a big thing he hung on the wall and left the pocket holes expose for the whole world to see. He made that thing out of some super nice cherry. I almost threw the remote at him.


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## a1Jim

That has always bothered me too, I'm sure Scott knows about other types of joinery but chooses the pocket screw short cut approach. As I"ve said earlier I'm sure Scott is a very nice guy but I can't agree with his joinery choices and his bad example of only using pocket screws to new woodworkers.


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## BurlyBob

Your right on the money as usual Jim!


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## bruc101

Her thoughts on pocket screws are for kitchen cabinetry face frame joinery only and that's as far as it goes and she'll use them for nothing else. Good for her


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## BurlyBob

Smart girl, obviously a chip off the old block.


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## jeffswildwood

Jim, I have and use the kreg pocket hole system. I did learn a few things over time using it. 1) I could become a "*kreg jig cripple*" if I was not careful. Using only the pocket holes instead of expanding my knowledge by learning new joinery. 2) pocket holes are ugly on a finished product. They must be hidden to maintain appearance. 3) sometimes the part you are adding to a project will not fit a pocket hole, you *must* go to plan "B" which may be M&T to get strength. Like you said, there is a place for them, but going from ten years ago using just butt joints and nails to what I do now, I have learned that place and to not limit myself to one product or form of joinery. To keep learning and trying new things.

I always love your forum topics, always the most informative.


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## a1Jim

Bruce I'm glad to see your daughter can recognize unacceptable workmanship early on in her woodworking adventure.
She may want to get Charles Neil's cases and bases video for her High boy build,love to see young folks get seriosly involved in woodworking. 
Thanks again Bob 
Thanks for the nice comment Jeff


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## Jackryan

I am watching Scott make a cabinet with a reclaimed stained glass panel which looked nice but he is using pocket screws on the inside edge and I'm thinking why the pocket screws there where they will always be seen when opened.

I starting surfing here and find people questioning his pocket screws also , the rest of the show was actually better than normal.


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## TheDane

Let's put this in a little different frame of reference …

I am a woodturner, and don't do much flat work any more.

A frequent subject of controversy among turners is the use carbide tools versus conventional high-speed steel (HSS) tools.

The carbide tools (e.g. EasyWood Tools, etc.) don't require sharpening, and many say they are easier for beginning turners to use. The HSS advocates, on the other hand, say conventional gouges produce a cleaner cut and require less sanding than pieces turned using carbide tools.

I have seen people arguing about this to the point that they get red in the face, curse each other, and storm out of the room to avoid coming to fisticuffs.

I couldn't care less. Whether you are using HSS or carbide tools, you are still making something, and that is what counts.

Same applies to this discussion.


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## bandit571

Noticed not a word was ever said about how Scott can use a bandsaw, nor about his making of bandsaw boxes, and clocks.

Whitch Hunts usually don't care about facts. Give them a gossipty rumour, though…

Yes, he does use his sponsor's products…..so what. One can always use the joinery of their choice for any of the projects Scott makes.

His biggest plus? Well, he does go out and promotes woodworking, tries to get people to try to make SOMETHING out of wood. He is quite good with a bandsaw, and a lathe. And he likes to teach the use of both tools.

Ok, back to the Scott Phillips Tar & Feather party….who has the popcorn?


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## a1Jim

Bandit
Actually Scott Phillips used pocket screws years before Kreg was his sponsor so I think it's his choice to use pocket screws rather than more traditional joinery not just using a sponsor's request.
I think your point is well made That Scott has woodworking skills ,if he didn't he would not have been on tV for 30 years
Scott has many skills beyond mine including turning,bandsaw work and perhaps design of many of the pieces he makes.
I just think his use of pocket screws distracts from all of that. You can make a fine looking shaker clock but if you open the door of the clock and see exposed pocket screws it just screams amateur or lazy woodworker.
As far as promoting woodworking I'm sure he does but what kind of workmanship does he promote? 
I don't feel this is a witch hunt or rumor it's just as plain as the exposed pocket screws on Scotts projects that this is not quality workmanship.
I do admire you taking a stand for Scott and as I said earlier he seems like the kind of guy I'd like to be friends with.


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## jkl103144

> I am watching Scott make a cabinet with a reclaimed stained glass panel which looked nice but he is using pocket screws on the inside edge and I m thinking why the pocket screws there where they will always be seen when opened.
> 
> I starting surfing here and find people questioning his pocket screws also , the rest of the show was actually better than normal.
> 
> - Jackryan


Jack, I believe what he is doing is trying to expose more people to furniture making, those who are beginners. But this really needs to be explained to the audience IMO. Making a constant habit, and not being candid, is a mistake on his part.


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## Clarkie

Hey Jim, I just spoke with Scott, he said he doesn't wanna be friends with you, lol…J/K


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## daddywoofdawg

Becuase the schools don't have woodworking shops anymore,kids don't get to even find a intrest in woodworking,and alot of the teachers are there just to make sure you don't cut off a finger.I remember my shop teacher giving me a A on my desk I made as others were making cutting boards,and told me My desk was better than anything he could make.
How does this relate?No one teaches how to make other joinery,sure everyone on here says oh you need to use,dovetails for a project to be proper,but there is very limited info on making those free wise,sure you can buy videos using 300.00 worth of tools,but don't see many you tube type videos (Paul sellers is one free one),or making a finger joint by hand, not a table saw.Point is because joints aren't being taught,you end up with pocket holes. JM2C


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## a1Jim

John
I remember another thread about folks favourite tv woodworkers and Scott's name came up again with criticism of his use of pocket screws,after a few folks joining in,in the criticising trend, one post said something to the effect that he watched all woodworking shows on TV and that bad woodworking was better than no woodworking. 
So I'm willing to concede that there may be value in Scott's show to promote woodworking and perhaps new woodworkers may find better joinery after starting building the way Scott does when the first start off,but I'm concerned that my also be harder for them to unlearn bad habits. Besides pocket joinery looking very unattractive it is poor construction when used on solid wood in a cross-grain situwation because of wood movement. I've seen this on a good number of projects on LJs were they have seen Scott's techniques on TV or with plans put out by folks like Ann White on line , who I'm sure knows nothing about wood movement.


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## a1Jim

Oh know Clarkie ,no friendship? how about just and autograph ? )

Daddywoof
I think if you look on You Tube you might be surprised as to how many folks show how to make more traditional joinery
It is true that many of the school shops are closed but even in those that are still open I'm not sure they still teach traditional joinery like they use to.


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## rwe2156

> Bruce I m glad to see your daughter can recognize unacceptable workmanship early on in her woodworking adventure.
> She may want to get Charles Neil s cases and bases video for her High boy build,love to see young folks get seriosly involved in woodworking.
> Thanks again Bob
> Thanks for the nice comment Jeff
> 
> - a1Jim


Also, if you want to see one build "right" ;-) watch the FWW video of Philip Lowe building one. Fascinating to see how its really not that much harder to use traditional joinery.


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## wormil

> ... you are still making something, and that is what counts.
> 
> Same applies to this discussion.
> 
> - TheDane


+1

-==-

For anyone that really has a problem with Scott Phillips why not go out and produce your own woodworking show on Youtube and teach your way of doing things. We live in a time where you do not need a television program to reach the masses.


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## BurlyBob

Rick, I'm not pretty enough.


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## jkl103144

What would be really nice would be for someone to make several Youtube videos involving different techniques for specific projects. But instead of just going from start to finish, make comments that explain the different ways to do certain steps. For instance, joining countertops, or cabinets. Then show how several different applications would accomplish each step. Then discuss why one is less time consuming, another makes a finer finish, and another that is the strongest. Each step would be shown, and how each was done. That way the watcher could see that there really is more to this than just a pocket hole jig.

Unfortunately I'm not up to speed on making videos. And if I was, the first video I would have to make would be how I routinely get over 50 shaves with my gillette razor blade. The last one I retired had 110 shaves, and it was still going great. This current one has 14 shaves so far. I've gotten this shave technique down to a real science.


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## TheDane

> What would be really nice would be for someone to make several Youtube videos involving different techniques for specific projects. But instead of just going from start to finish, make comments that explain the different ways to do certain steps.


Well … Charles Neil ( https://www.youtube.com/user/InTheWorkshop/videos ) has done that several times. Charles does mix power and hand tool techniques, but he goes into considerable detail. I'm probably never gling to build a pie safe (25 parts), but I sure learned a lot watching how he does it!


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## bandit571

Oh and as for Scott Phillips using pocket holes for joinery….I happen to have not only a antique desk made with them, there was also the remnants of a Meersman Coffee table I rescues from a landfill…..the aprons on it were indeed pocket holes to hold the top to the aprons.

An old Joinery Book I learned from way before Scott was even on the air….told just how to make such "pocket Holes" with a gouge, chisel and then drill a hole. The ones under that old coffee table were machine cut, BTW.

As for IF Scott is preventing anything? Actually, no one is. And NOBODY is out there teaching newbies HOW to make any sort of joinery.

1960s era Industrial Arts Class…..I had to draw, and MAKE each type of joint to join two pieces of stock together..with hand tools. Old bench had a vise on each corner, you'd walk to the tool cage, sign out the tools for that job. Half lap joint, with a backsaw? REQUIRED! Not only did you draw the joint on paper, you presented the FINISHED joint AND the drawing to the teacher, to get a grade.

Where are these classes now? I doubt very much the Mr. Phillips had prevented those classes….


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## a1Jim

Banit571
Reading earlier in this thread
You might note that we agreed that pocket screws were used in old furniture,that doesn't mean a person should use them on everything and have them exposed. 
As to folks still teaching traditional joinery? I do. 
It's not an issue with me if you're a Scott Phillips fan,to each their own.


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## bruc101

> Banit571
> Reading earlier in this thread
> You might note that we agreed that pocket screws were used in old furniture,that doesn t mean a person should use them on everything and have them exposed.
> As to folks still teaching traditional joinery? I do.
> It s not an issue with me if you re a Scott Phillips fan,to each their own.
> 
> - a1Jim


I also and all five of our daughters fit into this category of woodworking. I'm 69 years old and our family business was 69 years old this past July. It started as a small cabinet-furniture-woodworking shop by my grand dad and my dad in a barn.

I got started in it when I was 8 years old and last year gave it to our daughters, his grand daughters and they deserve it and with their young minds, news ideas and all educated in the field of architectural engineering will and are carrying it to a higher level. Everyone of them, now including Punky our 15 year old, have grown up in the business and can build anything they want to with wood because they started in the shop at early ages learning traditional joinery.

The shop has grown from a small shop in a barn to a large architectural millwork shop with modern woodworking equipment including cnc's. But, you will still see all the hand planes, dovetail saws, carving chisels and wood lathes still in place and being used daily.

I started drafting on a drafting table and moved to Autocad when it was first introduced and still use it. Our daughters not only use Autocad now they use another program called Microvellum, way above my head but that's what's needed in the field of architectural engineering now to be able to compete with beautiful 3d renderings of their projects.

With all the new technology in our industry now traditional joinery is still the preferred choice in their shop and as I told Punky's comment early in this thread…pocket holes are to be used for face frame construction only, and that's all my daughter's and their employees bottom line, face frame joinery only.

This is where Punky is now in her life to eventually take control of the business when her older sisters are ready to retire…she's not only working and learning management in the office with her sisters, shes in the shop learning how to do everything hands on so she can be that next generation owner of our family business and understand everything that's taking place.

It takes the youth with those young minds and new ideas to keep a business going as long as we've been in business. If they want a new piece of furniture they don't go buy it, they build it.


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## Ghidrah

None of the woodworking shows are for teaching. Sit and think about it, outside of Roy Underhill all of them have and use 10s of thousands of dollars of electric/mechanical equipment every show to complete a project. NA was using a 3 drum sander close to 20 yrs ago, how much did one of those cost, how about the re-saw BS with the 3" band he used for 1 project?

Look at Roy, all the planes, chisels, augers and saws he uses to complete one piece of molding, add the antique mechanicals, mortiser, lathe and scroll saw into it and your still in the thousands of dollars worth of equipment, probably way more due to the age of the tools. They're likely donated to the show from the local museums or colleges he works with and or teaches in. Forget all the ancillary equipment required to keep all said tools in proper operating condition.

All of the WW shows are for entertainment value only. If you don't have the tools used on the shows one shouldn't consider undertaking the projects let alone know proper tool use, and 24 mins of show time doesn't qualify as instruction in tool use, set up, or maintenance. If one has the tools and has been using them regularly for a yr or more or been in the WW trade for a few yrs then they likely don't need the show or talking head telling them how and what material to purchase or how to construct the project.

At best the shows shine when a new tool is introduced, or someone has brained a new way to use an old tool or reconfigure an old tool. The guys on Woodsmith Shop nearly put me to sleep, T. Mac's Ratso Rizzo laugh get on my nerves and Scott seems to get in the way of his wife when she's trying to work.

I'd like to see the shows have more guest WWs doing projects, occasionally SP has done that and they've been great.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

Scott seems to be a Kreg advertisement. I wonder what they are saying at the Ikea buyers & customers conventions? Probably wondering why they don't get joints as strong as the Scott Phillips Kreg Pocket Screw Joint ;-)


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## daddywoofdawg

I hated when the whole show seems like a infomercial,they don't use a router, they use a Freud xx router with the additional add on do hickey,connected to the thing a ma bob,(total price 3k).To round over that cutting board,then we will use the Freud sanding system etc.and spend half the show talking about why this 700 tool is better than the 80 B&D to sand a board.I understand they get paid to be a spokesman,but It scares people away, and disappoints others ,when they either see how much that tool costs, so they think I can't afford that hobby.or they go and buy everything the tv host uses,but can't make a project like the tv host; so they sell it all at half price, and have a bad taste after.


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## Mikesawdust

My opinion is Pocket hole joinery has a place, hidden. I haven't seen the show we are discussing but I doubt I would watch a show where I knew all joinery would be pocket holes, the visible joinery usually defines the project quality to me. I have used all kinds of joinery and enjoy using new types, the last time I used pocket hole joinery was when I failed at mortise and tenon and had to get the project out anyway. The pocket holes were hidden and didn't effect the look of the product. Was I happy with it? no, not as happy as I was planning to be but it got the job done and saved the 60 hours I had in the project: as well as my sanity. 
I started woodworking with no idea how to do it right and worked my way up from there, LJ has helped a lot by reading and seeing what some of the amazing people here are doing. I also go to the Wood whisperer a lot. I try to improve my abilities with each project and enjoy myself along the way.
Like many here, I doubt I'll ever try to make a living woodworking but I enjoy the notion that my projects will last and be passed on through time. I try to use joinery that's proven to last and pleasing to the eye, but where necessary I'll use a pocket hole.


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## Tennessee

I ran into pocket joinery head-on a couple years ago down at the huge apple festival in Ellijay, GA. They draw in thousands of artisans, including a few hundred woodworkers. One guy was selling these really nice hump topped blanket chests, and I liked them until I lifted the lid and got a handful of splinters from the pocket screw holes he had used to hold the top slats to the rounded ends of the top. As I picked splinters out of my fingers, I mentioned to him that he might want to rethink his pocket screw usage. He glared at me…
At least he could have plugged them.
I find myself only using them on things like coffee table corner braces, or underneath tables where no hand or eye will ever go. And I only have the HF unit. Couldn't justify the Kreg for the small usage I do.

One other thing: Remember the huge argument years ago on whether Norm Abram should be included in the top woodworkers in the world, since he used so many power tools? I don't know where that went, but it raged for quite a while. From my perspective, I would not put him in the top group in the world.

But, it seems that if you don't build completely by hand with hand tools only, there is a strong group that says you are not a world class woodworker. I don't really know. Seems to me that there are really fine artisans out there who use a combination of hand and power, hand only, and power only. And from a world class turning perspective, I cannot imagine somebody turning wooden cowboy hats with a pedal lathe…(as an example)
Does that make them not world class since they use a Oneway?

I don't really know. My own stuff, I know it is simple in the grand scheme of things, but most of my stuff sells or is sold before it leaves the workshop. Is that a consideration?
Again, I don't know.

I do know that people are not necessarily on TV because they are a top-of-the-line woodworker, but more that they can present and show. Just look at the Food Network. Rachael Ray has no culinary degree, and does really simple dishes, most of which take 30 minutes or less. She not only is on the Food Network as a major star, she also has a very successful syndicated show on the networks.

And finally, I would think that Kreg found Scott because of his use of pocket screws, not the other way around.


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## hairy

You can't teach someone to swim by throwing them in the deep end of the pool. I hear the same arguments about woodturners using traditional tools vs. carbide scrapers. If it suits your purpose, it is the right tool for the job. It's just one more option to choose from.

I've never used one. Woodsmith magazine sent me a Kreg K5, I have not opened the box. I'm not being a tool snob, I have not been where a pocket hole is the answer.


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## rwe2156

A nice looking piece of furniture can be produced in a number of ways but how do we define "craftsmanship"

A drawer can be built using dovetails, pins, screws, lock miter joints, rabbets, etc. and every one of them will hold together. But if I use dovetails instead of screws am I a better craftsman? If I hand cut my dovetails instead of machining them is that better craftsmanship?

One guy can be a master as doing them by hand and another with a router and a template. Who's got more skill? Personally, I think hand skills are a totally different realm of craftsmanship than setting up a machine.

Like the one poster said, picking up that lid and seeing pocket holes does not conjure up thoughts of a fine furniture maker. Its got nothing to do with whether the lid will hold together. And it may not even matter very much to the consumer.

I've watched guys like Phillips and Norm (I used to cringe when I saw Norm pull that air nailer out) and I've learned from them. But I've learned a lot more about joinery and furniture making from guys like Garret Hack and Phillip Lowe.

Others may disagree, but I think there is more to craftsmanship than just getting a nice looking product out the door with no gaps and a nice finish. I'd be interested to here your thoughts on this, Jim.

Knowing something was built using traditional time-tested methods vs. modern production type methods - who is that important to? What diff will it ultimately make to the consumer?

I think the answer depends on whether not you're doing it for a living vs. a furniture show. Those guys 150 years ago were craftsman working with tools and in conditions nobody would use today. Just like today, they had to get a product out the door they didn't have time to do anal obsessive dovetailing!

I've seen antique dressers with saw marks 6 inches across the inside of the drawer fronts for 1/2 blind DT's.

Was that good craftsmanship? The dt's were still tight 200 years later…..


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## a1Jim

Bruce 
sounds like you have a great background in woodworking and you daughters are carrying on the tradition. 
Ghidrah 
I think Depending on the reason you watch woodworking shows and you experience as a woodworker the TV show can be more than entertainment,by all means they can not show all the details given the time restraints a 22minet time slot will allow,
Tennessee
your experience is a good example of where some folks think pocket screws are perfectly acceptable or just too easy to resist.
hairy 
I have a pocket screw jig and use it on a regular basis for the back of face frames but we all set our own standards.
rwe2156
"What is a craftsman?", is very subjective just like"what is an artist" I think as makers of wooden items or products we all set our own standards .As we have seen in this thread some folks think using pocket screws exposed or not is perfectly acceptable where others are not happy unless they could make and Item that would be mistakenly taken for a piece a Phill Lowe or Charles Neil made. How we make the product seems to make a difference as to how others including prospective customers think of us and our products. If we make a tenon by hand or with a table saw or router or CNC the wood still gets removed and given proper care is taken you get the same results as far as a durable and strong joint,but there are those that say unless you make your products by hand your not a craftsman and conversely some would say using a CNC is perhaps even more exact and far more in tune to making a product for less cost in an expedited manner. Who's right and who's wrong? I say they are both Craftsman. Why? Because it takes skill and know how to make that item ,a Phill Lowe has the prestige of doing things the old masters did,but a Charles Neil uses shortcuts and power tool techniques plus hand tools and still turns out amazing pieces of furniture but with a much greater number of pieces a year. Then there's the folks with CNC made products,each project made exactly like the previously made item of a particular run. Are the CNC good products? I would think so,if correct specifications are followed and good material is used. Does it take skill to produce a CNC product,IMP yes.I would not have a clue how to program and set up a CNC of any kind.The issue is that at least in the mind of many purchasers of such products there's no romance of hand craftsmanship involved,but there are those that use CNC technology and they are marketed using labels like made be Amish that buyer assume they are quality products.
Bottom line ,if you or your customer considers you to be a craftsman than you are a craftsman, what level you work at or the product you make really doesn't matter.

A whole other question would be "are you an old world craftsman?"


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## rwe2156

> "A whole other question would be "are you an old world craftsman?"


I think you're hitting on something here but then why do I feel more like a craftsman when I do DT's by hand rather than a router?


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## AlaskaGuy

I doubt if Scott is preventing anybody from doing any thing.

What woodworker, newB or seasoned is going to limit their quest for woodworking knowledge to one show on TV?
It crazy to think that. There is so much information around today that you'd have to make a effort not to get exposed to information from sources other than Scott's.

Just a thought.


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## BadJoints

Maybe it's just me. I was exited when I found several ww shows to dvr. Fixed myself a beverage and sat down to watch in peace…. were totally unwatchable. I don't think I made it past minute 5 on any of them. Machined and assembled furniture, while technically sound, is incredibly boring to watch. I ended up deleting the lot.

I did enjoy Framework on spike tv. I think because they focused more on the design element, which appeals to me. There were some truly beautiful pieces produced on that show, but some duds too.


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## bruc101

I think Jim has hit on a lot of important things about craftsmanship. 
Do you consider yourself a traditional craftsman with traditional joinery, do you consider yourself a craftsman with power tool joinery or do you consider yourself a pocket screw craftsman? Needless to say it brought a lot of laughter from everyone but the truth is, which style craftsman are you and is that your personal opinion of craftsman.

rwe2156 I can tell you now I feel more of a craftsman when I cut dovetails by hand. My girls and me were at a guild meeting one evening and this question was asked by the keynote speaker.

CNC…sometimes I think back over the years. Being 69 now I have a lot of years behind me and I think about where I started in woodworking, where my daughters are now in the industry and where is the industry going. The only time I've not been a woodworker is when I was in college and the Air Force and I would not change anything.

As our business grew from a small family shop to where it is now from a small barn to a building with 1000's of square feet and many many dollars worth of woodworking equipment in it now to be able to compete in the architectural market.

Society now dictates the market for us. You're either in it full blast with all the cnc equipment, college educations, years of experience, high dollar projects and salaries going into the millions of dollars. Or, your either a small to mid level shop with some cnc in it making a living and making livings for your employees. Then there is the shop that didn't stay on top of things in the market, didn't invest in the new equipment, and or didn't have the money and the expertise to grow. We consider ourselves in the low end of the top market.

I can remember when we started getting into the field of architecture we would draw radius's on the floor with chalk, do whatever it took to bend wood around that radius and then use about 200 clamps and hope all that would work when we took the clamps off. Sometimes that would take a week or more.

Now my daughters makes those radius's with cnc and join everything together in a couple of days. I can remember three of us carving and it would take us a week to do what a cnc can do in a day now. Once again to stay competitive speed is the key and time is money. Here again society dictates that in large architectural projects. My daughters are doing all the wood now for a refurbish on a 1950's courtroom. They're dealing with many trades and if my daughters fall behind many other things could fall behind and they would have to pay a penalty.

I consider myself a traditional craftsman, my daughters consider themselves traditional craftsman, but to make their livings in the architectural industry they also have to stay on top of the ladder with the latest in equipment, designing software and use their talents as traditional woodworkers to make their projects look better than the other shops. Because of their training they understand wood, what makes it work and the joinery it needs to make it stay together and last for another generation to enjoy.

When anyone walks into that courtroom after it's completed the first thing they will see is the beautiful wood that surrounds it, my daughters contribution to that new courtroom.


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## Ghidrah

a1Jim,
It could be, should be, but it isn't. The MO of all the shows is to take a project that obviously can take a week or more from start to finish and cram it into 24 mins. The only way to do that, (in most cases) is to gloss over the majority of the actual work involved with the process. For the beginner WW, (if said individual has the minimum tools req'd), this is the valuable info needed to turn a horror show into a learning objective regardless of the quality of the end result.

Not that it matters much if the show "is" taken as entertainment, but maybe there should be a "Your mileage may vary" clause/disclaimer at the beginning or end of the show, (depending on your WW experience and existing tools). A good aspect is the emphasis placed on safety, even experienced WWs have accidents.

I'd prefer to watch to learn something. It's the tips, tricks and techniques acquired over yrs of practicing the trade that allows the subconscious mind to see, calculate and move forward or stop and or prevent an error from occurring. The more expensive the wood becomes the more difficult it is to absorb errors.


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## DrDirt

To the OP… I would say NO, Scott isn't preventing learning joinery.

Whose "First Woodworking projects" were dovetailed? versus Nailed or Screwed together.

I think if you can get people to work with thier hands building things… and it goes together quickly and easily with Kreg….

Maybe their 4th or 5th project starts to bring in learning of new skills.

If instead you look to complete noobs… and say that Rough Cut with Tommy Mac is the "only way to start out" 
I think that kind of a high bar to entry, would be offputing.

This is why Norm was so good. you watched his show and thought…."Hey maybe I could do that!".

Nobody is watching Scott Philips to build a flame mahoghany chippendale highboy.


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## a1Jim

Ghidrah

"Your mileage may vary" Ha Ha Exactly!

DrDirt
I agree "Nobody is watching Scott Philips to build a flame mahogany Chippendale highboy."


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## jkl103144

Bruce, that's about as good an explanation as it gets. For my business, I don't need to have the best made framing, only that it is sturdy and can handle the finish work and be great for many years. I've made some beautiful padded dog-eared cornices in the past, which also had the tops finished with 2.5" or 3.5" ceiling molding, and taken the molding and used special non-staining cloth glue, completely finishing out the work with high dollar fabric. It looks spotless, and they go in some very expensive homes, where the customers are overjoyed. But I do more than woodworking, and I use pneumatic staples and nails, which will be covered.

When you are in business, and you value quality, you will do the best you can, because it states volumes about YOU. Its your reputation, and if you lose your reputation, you've lost just about everything. 'Course, I'm the kind of person, who also likes to install my work, because if someone else skimps on mounting a long cornice over a picture window, where people sit to watch television, or just visit, I cringe at the thought of it coming loose and injuring someone. If the cornice ever fell and hurt someone, it would be on my conscience forever.

But I still don't really care for pocket hole jigs, unless absolutely necessary. And leaving them raw also reflects somewhat on one's character.


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## wormil

It's a testament to our modern society that we an abundance of free time to worry about who is and isn't screwing their wood.


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## MrRon

I am not a big fan of pocket hole joinery. I see and understand it's ease of use. I tried it once using a home made jig. In my opinion, I would only use it for "shop" projects, never for furniture. There I would prefer more traditional joinery methods. In my way of thinking, pocket hole joinery is akin to stapling a hardboard panel to the back of a cabinet rather than placing that panel in a dadoed slot.


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## oldnovice

I am not a pro but in my opinion, *pocket hole joints are not to be seen*!


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## BadJoints

> I am not a pro but in my opinion, *pocket hole joints are not to be seen*!
> 
> - oldnovice


Yes, they should only be served in back alleys, away from sight of 'respectable' joinery


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## bruc101

Punky, female. age 15. traditional woodworker. Started her training at age 8 under her grand dad. Now works with and under her older sisters in our family business. Last summer she built her first kitchen. This is her project for this summer also learning from a lady basket maker family friend.

She designed and built this island for the basket maker. When we delivered it yesterday the lady asked her to sign and date it and then asked her to design and built the rest of her new kitchen to matach her new beautiful handcrafted island.

It's built out of curley maple, cherry and birch. She turned the legs on her HF lathe. No pocket screws, no nails, brads or staples. The mouldings around the drawer fronts she did with one of her grand dads old wood hand planes. She weaved the back panels out of white oak furnished by the basket maker. She also fabricated the solid surface top for it.

Take a kid to the shop with you, teach them "woodworking", pat them on the back, and pay them well.


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## a1Jim

That's one sweet island congrats to Punky and her super mentors for an amazing job done by all parties .


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## bruc101

Thanks Jim. That's pretty much the style here and anything that looks like a freight train ran over it. I've never seen nor built anything here with Asian influence, Studio or any other style. We all have an appreciation for all the other styles but they don't pay our bills. We live in a mountain resort area where high dollar vacation homes are the norm. The lady that owns that island now is wealthy beyond my comprehension and that's her style so that's what Punky gave her. It's in what she calls her mountain cabin. Punky knows you have to design and build the client what they want whether she likes it or not or whether any of of us like it or not.

The kitchen she built last summer was painted. She has this thing, just like most of us do, why would anyone want to paint beautiful wood. She also knew that's what the client wanted and that's what she gave her, a painted kitchen, grinning not smiling.


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## tturner

I have to agree. Pocket hole screws have their place-hidden. Lets not forget the fundamentals of woodworking and the age-old engineering that lent itself to great quality furniture that we know and appreciate today, such as Stickley. The quick and dirty styles of woodworking such as this (i LOVE pocket holes, in the correct application) may should be left to the more experienced woodworker-who knows when and where to apply this.


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## bigblockyeti

I'm watching Scott right now on PBS and he's working on a screw project with a little wood in between. It's a small cabinet that apparently is going to be used for supporting fire trucks and consuming massive quantities of Kreg screws. I think he had to stop twice to sharpen the pocket hole drill bit throughout one project.


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## luckybodog

I just watched Scott Phillips build a Jewelry box using Mortise and Tenon jointery and also dovetail drawers. No mention of pocket holes. He seems very knowledgeable to me. I applaud the success of others. Everyone else should do the same.


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## a1Jim

Since this post I've followed Scott on Facebook, he seems like one of the nicest guys out here, so I feel bad being critical of him. I was sure he knew other joinery but couldn't understand why he seemed to just use pocket screws so much.


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## tvrgeek

It could be he is showing newcomers that you can get the job done without the joinery we learn and pride ourselves in. I started with particle board and nails. Not everyone can start out an an apprentice to learn joinery.

Yes, I hand cut dovetails and I have a Kreg jig too. I even resort to biscuits sometimes.


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## daddywoofdawg

sometimes all you need is for it to hold together. and a new woodworker making something makes you want to make something again. so if its pocket hole screwed together that makes you want to make something again I would say it's a plus. down the road, they'll want to learn joints after they learn tools. crawl before you walk; 
your first taste is free.lol


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## a1Jim

Keep in mind this post is almost 5 years old, a person(MYSELF) can get a new focus on things in that amount of time. Since I teach woodworking privately and for my local community college and have also started a woodworking club with many new woodworkers, and having these contacts with new woodworkers many of them want to have quicker less complicated project builds and of course they ask about pocket screws. All said and done I've become less of a joiney snob and have helped them with pocket screw made projects, but I also include telling them about traditional joinery so they are aware of a bigger variety of joints that can fit different types of projects and maybe more suitable, have more strength, and give a much better-finished look.


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## wapakfred

Jim, his show bounces around in terms of what to expect. I suspect you're correct and he is a very nice guy (I've met him twice) and he is certainly well regarded around here (his stomping grounds, he lives one county south of me). But he built a bonnet top high boy, and used butt joints with biscuits to hold it together some years ago. Then there's the pocket screw thing, then for a short time it was all loose tenons with is domino (s). If you've ever seen him apply shellac with a 4" house paint brush you would cringe. There was another show where he opened by showing what he was building, and he was going to do without a table saw! All well and good, then he pulls out about $5K worth of Festool products (including the MFT table) and did his project. He blows which ever way his sponsors point him, without bringing up brand names that would violate PBS code of conduct. I have heard him mention Arm R Seal by name, which seems to be his favorite finish as of late. I think any criticism of his show is deserved, but that's just my opinion.


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## Unknowncraftsman

I've also watched his show a few times. One show my wife had to tell to me to turn the channel or stop shouting at the tv.
Wish I had the patience to teach others. I've had a few to share basics with and it was not my cup of tea. Teaching others how to accomplish their ideas is not easy. Good for you Jim. It's a gift.

Good Luck everyone


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## a1Jim

Even though I like Scott as a person I was always confused why Woodcraft stuck with him when they had a chance to have a show with Charles Neil?


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## bandit571

Maybe IF you all would direct 1/2 of this Grand Crusade fury at a fellow named "Ted".....and his 16,000 plans…imagine what a better place the world would be.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Even though I like Scott as a person I was always confused why Woodcraft stuck with him when they had a chance to have a show with Charles Neil?
> 
> - a1Jim


Respectfully just my thoughts- Since you brought up the name Charles Neil- Why did they keep him I don't know why, but I do remember him as a huckster promoting the Power Matic bandsaws, and while watching him I was convinced and I bought one. At the time it seemed to be a good product but not compared to today's saws.
My guess is that Philipps is helping sell products and the cycle goes on.
Pocket hole joinery a fantastic joint and can be used in its proper project. I use pocket hole joinery in my "curb furniture"- make it use it and then it goes to the curb- IMO better than IKEA.


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## Woodmaster1

Scott is a nice person. When I talked to him at the woodworking expo I go to he goes out of his way to talk to several people. He stays on the show because he a good salesman and very personable. We have to remember he gears his show for people that don't have mega machines. He has upped his game lately and makes some nice things.


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## kelvancra

When I built all my kitchen cabinets, they were all built with the idea I should be able to hang off them and if the screws securing them to the walls held, they'd withstand that MAJOR abuse.

That said, since I have and use pocket hole screws here and there, half the lower cabinets were built with pocket hole screws. You can't see them and the granite on top isn't going to destroy the cabinet because I used them.

The simple of it is, I used them because I could and because I knew, for my application, they would not detract from appearance or compromise performance.

Later, I built a built in bookshelf for the kitchen and used them there in a few spots. Since the wife wanted everything painted, a few plugs later…...

On the later, it gave me an excuse to build a pocket hole screw plug cutting jig for the bandsaw:

https://www.instructables.com/id/Pocket-Hole-Plug-Cutting-Jig-for-the-Band-Saw/


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## kelvancra

Just curious, how do you propose we deal with that dirt bag?



> Maybe IF you all would direct 1/2 of this Grand Crusade fury at a fellow named "Ted".....and his 16,000 plans…imagine what a better place the world would be.
> 
> - bandit571


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## Desert_Woodworker

> When I built all my kitchen cabinets, they were all built with the idea I should be able to hang off them and if the screws securing them to the walls held, they d withstand that MAJOR abuse.
> 
> That said, since I have and use pocket hole screws here and there, half the lower cabinets were built with pocket hole screws. You can t see them and the granite on top isn t going to destroy the cabinet because I used them.
> 
> The simple of it is, I used them because I could and because I knew, for my application, they would not detract from appearance or compromise performance.
> 
> Later, I built a built in bookshelf for the kitchen and used them there in a few spots. Since the wife wanted everything painted, a few plugs later…...
> 
> On the later, it gave me an excuse to build a pocket hole screw plug cutting jig for the bandsaw:
> 
> https://www.instructables.com/id/Pocket-Hole-Plug-Cutting-Jig-for-the-Band-Saw/
> 
> - Kelly


Exactly, one joint assisting another-


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## oldnovice

I don't own a pocket hole jig, or anything like it, and really have no desire to get one!


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## wormil

I'm sure the fat checks from Kreg don't influence his decision on joinery at all.


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## kelvancra

On my post above, I neglected to mention all the cabinets, pocket screws or not, were done with rabbits, dados or plow cuts and glue, because I like durable.


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