# Festool are good but.........................



## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

OK their good but before you go out throwing that kind of money out should you not look at this. (Woodorkers getting started Please Look) Ok You can have a host of hand tools that are outstanding. Or a shop equipped that just makes life so much easier. Check out a comparison of spending your life savings on festool hand tools or grizzly shop equipement. Sorry a big saw just makes cutting that 4X8 sheet just a snap. Or a bandsaw that will cut a log for your own wood or a band saw box. How about a drum sander that makes sanding seconds away. Or a dust collector that is hooked up to all the tools. All prices taken from the internet.

*Festool *

"574432, Festool Domino Joiner DF 500 Q Set T-Loc " $825.00 
FT564250, Festool T 15+3 Lithium Ion Drill Set $575.00 
"FT561188, Festool Circular Saw TS 75 EQ " $625.00 
FT561097, Festool Jigsaw TRION PS 300 EQ $310.00 " 
FT561287, Festool KS 120 EB Kapex - Sliding compound miter saw" $1,300.00 
FT574277, Festool OF 2200 EB Plunge Router $800.00 
"FT574288, Festool Router MFK 700EQ Set" $525.00 
"FT574539, Festool Planer HL 850 E" $490.00 
"FT571760, Festool RO 150 FEQ Dual-mode 6 inch Rotex Sander with Multi-Jetstream" $495.00 
FT491937, Festool FS 2700/2, 106 inch Guide Rail $260.00 
"FT491498, Festool FS 1400/2, 55 inch guide rail " $94.50 
FT583493, Festool Mobile HEPA Dust Extractor CT 36 E $600.00

*total festool damage $6,899.50

**Grizzly *

"G0513X2B 17"" 2 HP Extreme-Series® Bandsaw w/ Cast Iron Trunnion & Brake." $1,095.00 
"G7944 12 Speed Heavy-Duty 14"" Floor Drill Press" $335.00 
"G0490X 8"" Jointer w/ Spiral Cutterhead" $1,250.00 
"G0440 2 HP Cyclone Dust Collector" $950.00 
"NEW! G0453PX 15"" Planer with Spiral Cutterhead, Polar Bear Series" $1,475.00 
"G0691 10"" 3HP 220V Cabinet Table Saw with Long Rails & Riving Knife" $1,395.00 
"NEW! G0459P 12"" Baby Drum Sander, Polar Bear Series" $595.00

*total damage $7,095.00 *

Ok I wood not buy a Miter saw from them but for 600 dollars there are many out there that were rated # 1 in many mags

Now when you look at the numbers THINK you can have a bunch of hand tools *OR* be equiped like a professional. And settle for a little less in the hand tool.

PICK your poison.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

You're comparing apples and oranges. Hand power tools to stationary machines. I have nearly everything Festool manufactures, and I also have most of the better Powermatic stuff, a 25" Woodmaster, etc. etc. 
I think that in order for me to be equipped as the particular kind of pro that I need to be, everything I have is essential because I use all of it.
As far as sheet goods are concerned, my TS75 is not only easier and more accurate than the Kennedy I sold last August, I can stack as many as 3 sheets at a time, and not have to move the sheets; only the saw.
On the other hand, Festool manufactures nothing to compete with my Powermatic or Woodmaster machinery.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

I wish I could have spent those dollars on Festool, mine cost me way more in Canada.

Compare the Canadian made General or Powermatic power tools and it makes the Grizzly hardly even able to growl…

My General tools cost much more than double the amount you have listed for Grizzly although I do have a few items you don't have listed (lathe, sander).

And as Pete says above, it doesn't matter a bit as I need them to make my living. Most of them…


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

OK oK yea Blue ( I respect you) but we are talking hobbist out there that are asking whether to buy festool or out fit a shop. Please we can do so much more to assist them . There are basic tools that are needed in a shop alot of time where hand tools can be sacrificed for lesser inefficient tools that will end with the same results. Do you tell a guy to buy a saw from festool that uses maybe 5 or 10 times a year. Some of our LJs are just that.

Maybe one of these days I'll splurg on a tool that are not a necessity.

(I doubt it Bosch dewalt PC will have my business)

*jusfine* I did say this is not my preferred list (Table saw Delta), but any hobbist I would think would be glowing getting the grizzly list and be way happier. Are you saying grizzly is junk. I seem to know many LJ's that love them too death.

OK please give me those dollars and I'll use them to go into business. Or I'll wait to see them on craiglist for half off cause you realized you don't use it enough and the 100 to 150 dollar drill, saw etc you should have bought would have been good enough. I think LJ's is a good site but so many of you are just to nice about it and tell them what they want to hear rather than some common sense.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

removed Added above


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

That said, there's no reason to buy new machinery unless you can
only afford to buy on credit.

All my machines right now are vintage or close to it and I've got 
less than $1000 invested in buying the machines themselves. I've
owned more expensive machinery, but guess what? I was tempted
to sell them during life transitions and I did!

Old machinery isn't appropriate for everybody though and it's more
available in some areas than others.

I own a bunch of Festool stuff and it's useful in many common situations. 
It is not a substitute for stationary machinery however in terms of
speed, power, holding settings, or repeatability. It kicks serious butt 
on installations.

That said, fine tools are a pleasure and that's why a lot of woodworkers
collect them. For a hobbiest, what says hobby more than collecting?

Just getting started and want to build furniture? Get a workbench, bandsaw
and a planer, a router, a drill and some hand tools and that's all you need really.

Want to make plywood cabinets? Get a table saw, a drill, and a router, a few
chisels, a jack plane, etc. Everything else just adds efficiency and speed.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

You can do the same thing with a 20 dollar HF (Which I don't Own ,No disrespect intended) over a 500 dollar Festool.

I actually own a over priced PC at 125 where the 60 dollar PC is picked up more and if I did not own that I probably pick the craftsman up.

SO WHY THE PRICE.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems to me that hobbyists, such as myself, would opt for cheaper power tools. Yes, hand tools might be cheaper, but, being a hobbyist, I might only have maybe an hour or two each Saturday to work in the shop and you're mistaken if you think that that time is going to be used delicately scraping or planing a surface by hand. No- I'm going to full-safety blitz the heck out of my shop in the time that I have-serially ripping, cutting, planing, sanding each one of my ongoing projects.

That being said, estate auctions and craigslist are your friends. Don't look down on people who can't afford a Festool and don't feel bad if you can only afford a Ryobi.

As was once told to me-the weapon doesn't make the warrior.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

superstretch

You got the point.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Nice. Do I get a prize? A Festool perhaps?


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Stretch, you do get the point and a prize. Res will send you a Festool!
On the other hand, don't be upset if some people want to spend more of their money on their tools… 

Res, 
No disrespect towards Grizzly at all.

The way I read your initial comment was that it was a lot of money spent on Grizzly tools, I just pointed out there are much more expensive options.

Give you my money so you can go into business? Seriously? Send me a business plan and we will see.

Keep looking for my Festools on Craigslist or Kijiji or Ebay, you won't see them.

Consider this though;

Some of the baby boomers have used those less expensive tools for years, and have now upgraded to something better because they want to and can afford to. I guess I am one of them.

I have been in the carpentry / construction industry for over 35 years, and I do enjoy fine tools.

Maybe it's all a waste of money, but hey, it is my money.


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

I've sold Festool. It's way over priced. We had a customer from Ukraine who always looked at the Festool prices and laughed. " Those tools are priced much lower in Europe and I'd rather have Bosch anyway" was his comment. My problem with Festool is not only the cost, but two other things. 1. - On a lot of Festool products you're not just buying a single tool, You're buying into a system. Their tools are designed to work with their other tools. I prefer my assorted brands to get what I like. 2. - I just plane don't like their tool designs. MPO I know they say their big on ergonomics but some tools look very awkward to me. All that said Festool is like Sawstop you either love em' or hate 'em.

Pop


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

*Randy* I'm not upset at all when people spend their money how they want to spend it.. Big Bro might want some say in that.. Even though I'm happy with my low budget items, I sure wouldn't mind some upgrades. Yes, the weapon doesn't make the warrior, but a good weapon allows the warrior to fight at his greatest potential and won't let him down.


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## D1st (Jan 28, 2010)

If you can afford it, buy it. If you cant afford it dont buy it or go to harbor frieght. lol


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Dan, I totally agree.
Big Bro has to cross the snow covered fields to get at me…


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Well they aint using my snow covered field.


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

deke, I think the idea here is that newbes don't need to run out and spend a King's ransom for tools. Just a look at what's out there. No whining just talking. I thought that's what these forums were all about.


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## davidmicraig (Nov 21, 2009)

I understand the point, one doesn't have to pay the money for a sophisticated line of tools. Where people have a few of their hackles up is where the price comparison lies. Any shop will require both hand and stationary tools. If you compare the prices for Festool with Ridgid, for example, the hand tool costs would be significantly lower. It is all about budget and most newbies are probably not going to flock to Festool unless they really have the pocketbook for it. I don't, which is why I don't go there. But that is also why I purchased hand planes from ebay, rather than LNs. And why I have a Ridgid TS instead of a SawStop. In every area of tool purchases there are the bicycles, the Yugos, the Fords, and the Mercedes. I started out with Yugos and built myself up to the Fords and that is probably where I will stay 

David


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## riverb (Jan 29, 2011)

This discussion is the reason there is not a large presence of Tool manufactures left in the USA. Too many people would rather go to China for cheap products that take jobs away from Americans than save up for a few months and buy a quality product built by people who don't live in Communist China.

sorry rant over.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

As true with all of life…sometimes we buy the best…sometimes we buy what's adequate.

I have a 42" LCD Sony TV as my main set and three other smaller flat panel LCD/LED sets in other rooms. I do not feel the need for anything better and do not lust after anything better…but in this regard now-a-days, I'm sure I have an average number of average TV sets.

For others things (like my astronomy), I will spend more for the very best.

Just keep in mind that the cost/performance curve of ANYTHING is not a linear function…it is exponential…you pay exponentially more money for steady increases in performance. Festool is expensive and it's up to each person (hobbyist or not) to decide how badly they need that ~10% performance increase…or to decide whether or not a tool like the Domino is truly a unique, irreplaceable unit.

But whatever you feel about this thread, I think we'd all have to agree that we can all benefit from BOTH stationary and hand-tools (powered or unpowered).


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

Personally, I've never had the desire to own Festools. I'm perfectly happy with my Delta machinery. It's not that I can't afford Festools, which I can,cause I've got plenty of $$ (uh huh), but the fact that I can do just as quality of work with my Deltas as with name brands like Festool….All of my machines are older, and was made in the U.S. back then (all except my Unisaw….it's a 2009), and I have no complaints about them. I don't need a Rolls Royce, cause I'm a Chevy man, myself. 
But to be honest, I would like to try a couple of Festools just to compare the difference between the apples and oranges….....But to buy them….no thanks…I'll stick with my oranges..or do I have apples…??


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Rick, I felt the same way until I kept hearing and reading about Festool, so I ended up trying the sanders to start with, sold my PC's and it started a migration…

In my opinion, it's is worth the trial.

I still have various brands of fruit on my shop shelves too…


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## Rick Dennington (Aug 27, 2009)

You know Randy, it's funny that you mentioned the sanders, cause that's the tool I would like to try….I have heard and read that they are excellent. The other one would be the shop vac…well, I don't know if they call it that, but anyway, their vacumn….They say it's a sucking jessy…....whoever "they" are…...lol.


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

I hear you on both sides of this, $ vs. $$$$ is definately a factor to consider with one's wallet. We've spent lots of $$ on cheaper quality tools, but sometimes you just have to buy the $$$$ if you want quality. Sometimes you can get decent quality at a comparible price, it all depends on the tool, manufacturer and the user, as a weekend warrior doesn't usually need as much precision as a master cabinetmaker who earns a living with the results of these tools.

I've recently indulged in a few high end tools such as Festool, Lie Nelson, etc. And there is a difference that can pay off. The Festool dust collector & 5" orbital sander are quieter, more efficient and has very little vibration which means I can do more work with less wear and tear on my hands, wrists, arms, ears and respiratory system. Lie Nelson's spoke shaves are wonderful, but Veritas is quite impressive for less money and I can live with the difference of the cheaper item.

It's hard to make a black/white statement on the prices vs. quality and sometimes you just have to try it out yourself or listen to others who have the hands on experience with those particular tools. Keep in mind the project and craftsman are factors to these decisions.


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Rick, that was my first thought, if the sanders would work better, I could be a believer.

I have said this before, but it is enjoyable to sand now, as was said, less vibration, better DC than I had with my PC's, overall better designed. I did buy their demo vacuum the same day and it really does suck.

Then I put some of my other tools up for sale, and as they sold, replaced with Festool. My wife says I seem happier working in the shop again and she likes that it is cleaner…

Newer tools are sometimes better engineered, just as vehicles are.
Sure, I still like the look of the 55 Chevy Coupe, but couldn't drive it the 100 km I do everyday, the suspension isn't close to my 2005 truck's.

Rick, my kids told me long ago that "*they*" are "*those who know*".


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## Greedo (Apr 18, 2010)

i don't know "american" brands because they don't sell overseas. but over the time i have gotten an idea of their qualities.
so it makes me smile when i read "i had a (insert cheaper US brand) sander, router, scms, etc… for so many years and then switched to a festool, and i couldn't believe the difference!" 
well duh! it's like being surprised that your new mercedes is more pleasant and reliable than your old kia!
but remember there is also ford, vw, toyota etc in between!
translated that means Bosch, makita, dewalt etc

but i have trouble understanding the topic, do we need to choose between both columns?
you can't really do woodworking with the tools from only one of the columns, i need both!
i started out slowly when every dollar mattered, i only wanted to invest in woodworking the money i first earned doing woodworking.
so if i went festool from the start then i would have been seriously handicapped from the beginning. for the average price of a festool tool i was able to negotiate a new Bosch belt sander, biscuit jointer and big jigsaw with accesories! and those are high quality professional tools!
currently i could afford to sell all my tools and buy only festool, but funny enough that is only because i didn't buy festool from the start! i spent the same amount of money but i got more for it, i could afford to buy that chisel mortiser wich increased my productivity, etc


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I live in Northern California. The price will go down a little bit when I build my new shop, but we figure enclosed space cost us about $500/square foot. That changes the price equation a little bit.

And, of course, it also depends on how much and what type of lumber you're moving through your shop.

On the "but you can get a Sliding Compound Miter Saw for $600", I was recently hanging out at Mead Clark waiting to talk to a guy behind the counter and got to playing with the various higher end SCMSs they had on display. The Kapex was the only one of those where the blade guard retracted inside the housing, not outside. So the question I have to ask (and I ask this as a fairly well paid computer professional, not as a professional woodworker, that equation may be different): That may be a small thing, but do I spend my hobby time investigating all the ways that the saws are different, or do I simply accept that Festool likely got more of them right than the other manufacturers and spend that time in the shop?

A day spent in the shop is relaxing, a day spent investigating product features and learning what I do and don't know about a given product line isn't. The price difference between a Kapex and the next runner up is less than my opportunity cost for that day in the shop. QED.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

I have a friend (an aerospace engineer working for Solar Turbine) who got into woodworking less than a year ago, mostly for the purpose of fixing up his own house. At the time, he did extensive research on the mechanical characteristics of each purchase he subsequently made. He kept coming back to Festool. Polymer housings used, motor windings, bearing specs, etc…... in virtually every area, they are of a superior mechanical design and manufacture. That much is not open for debate, because it is objective, mathematical and material fact.
What IS subjective is what a particular person needs from a particular tool or machine. Like it or not, there is no "right way" to set up all professional shops. For a person to suggest that another is wrong for buying Festool, or in some way "throwing their money away" is a bit naive, at least. I suppose, though, that a person could say that spending over $500,000.00 on a car is ridiculous. I don't think that you'd hear that from a pro Nascar driver, though. You could make him scratch his head, though, if you suggested that, for $500,000.00, he should buy an entire fleet of tractor trailers, because they're better than just one little car.


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## TheWoodNerd (Aug 30, 2009)

1. - On a lot of Festool products you're not just buying a single tool, You're buying into a system

This is total BS. Festools function just fine on their own. What they do share is some commonalities, e.g. if you get the plunge saw then the routers and jigsaws can be guided by the same rail. That doesn't mean you have to buy the other tools.

You can do the same thing with a 20 dollar HF (Which I don't Own ,No disrespect intended) over a 500 dollar Festool.

No, you can't. You can do approximately the same thing, just like you can hand-sand instead of using the HF. But sanding with Festool is a much more pleasant experience than either cheap sanders or hand-sanding.

Festools are NOT "overpriced". Cost/value is exponential. The HF is maybe 80% of a Festool because that 80% is easy. Each step up (dust control, vibration control, etc) is a higher $/%.

They're worth it. You can't afford it. Get over it.


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## superstretch (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey guys.. lets keep with the original topic.. It took a few extra reads, but this is about newbies/hobbiests not feeling bad because they can't afford such high budget items. Lets leave it at that and stop arguing about what is and isn't worth buying. Check the incivility at the door.


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## surfin2 (Oct 24, 2009)

*Hey guys.. lets keep with the original topic.*

Couldn't have said it better…


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Blue Mountian, where did you friend find info like bearings speced in tools? I have not seen any manufacture list this info anywhere. Unless somene bought the tools and tore them apart I don't see how.


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## jm64 (Jan 21, 2011)

Don't let what tools you can afford dictate what you can build. You can make a lot of nice stuff with relatively inexpensive tools.

Also, don't knock a tool based on price tag. I'm clearly in the hobbyist camp and after a *lot* of deliberation plunked down about a grand for the TS 55 and CE 26. Why? I have limited space to work in and I have a small bench top table saw. Also, my back ain't what it used to be. So, hoisting a full sheet of 3/4 ply onto an undersized saw was painful, difficult, and produced sub-standard results.

I tried using my circular saw and a straight edge. First I purchased a metal straight edge - too much of a pain to measure the offset all the time. Then I built a jig so I could just line the saw on the cut line. Better, but not a great cut even with a decent blade.

Once I tried the festool I was hooked. The straight edge stays in place without clamping. The saw and the dust extractor are relatively quiet. The cut quality is exceptional. The dust collection is great.

Do I have to have it? No, the other methods worked. This just works much better for me and allows me to get in more woodworking in the limited time I have available to do it and the quality of the output is better than I could get on my other tools. Some other LJ said something like "I'd rather cry once when I buy the tool than every time I use it." I think there is a lot of truth to that.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Whoa Did not expect this so I'll start with the first person after my last entry.

*jusfine* I completely understand a seasoned woodworker wanting the finer things in life, I can't and would never argue that.

Yea got a investor I'll send you a plan next week. JK 

*Pop* I Good point with # 1, yeap your buying into a system. They'll of course say Oh you can do this or that but it won't be as good.

*superstretch* Food for thought
A warrior knows how to use a inferior tool to his advantage and does not need the best.

*deke* 
No you lost the point. Basically yea festool is good, but is this product going to produce superior craftsmanship over any other tool. Its convience, comfort, so forth. What one can do with a festool, I'll do (Or someone else) can do the same with a HF (By the way I don't own a singl HF). So is it worth it. There is a second but I'm answering you. On the bashing only (Not bashing). Supierior craftsman makes the project not equipement.

Thanks *POP* Yes someone has the point.

*David Craig* I agree

Some of us FORD is the Mercedes by far.

*riverb*
From what I gather its not a US company but rather a german company. Compliments of *FOG*

*Cosmicsniper*
Did you just twist it.

*Rick Dennington * Another man with the point. ( Dude I still like your shop 0 and fish)

*mmh*
I think its more the craftsman that makes the project than the tool. If it was the tool we would be saying tool made not hand made.

*Greedo*
OK yea it wasn't really meant to pick one. If you take a 1000 dollars you can get tools way cheaper, they will do the job and you have a complete shop. By the festool and you have double your money in the shop.

Festool sander sands All other brands sand. 
Everything else is a luxury. I don't need leather seats with my ford. Just need the seat.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Ummh, at the risk of sounding stupid- what's your point? You can't really have a 'whole' shop with only one list. You need stuff from both lists to be even moderately efficient. 
Festool is pro quality hand held power tools. Grizzly is low/mid range stationary tools. It's not an either or situation. Most people pick tools to get the most 'bang for the buck'. Their bang might be owning the best tool made or the cheapest that sort of works. Listing the prices of both makes what point? Just to get the festool too expensive argument going again.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

@Joe….... yeah…the old saying is "buy the best and only cry once." 
@patcollins…....he borrowed a festool jigsaw (a display which had been cut in half) from a local dealer, and did some further homework.
For a bit more info,... http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech/festool-special.htm


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## Gofor (Jan 12, 2008)

I learned a lot from my Dad:

1. If its a tool you plan to keep using, buy the best you can afford. ("Best" does not always mean "most expensive". Do your home work).

2. If its a tool you only think you'll need once: Buy only good enough to finish the job, or rent it.

3. If you have to borrow money to buy it, you can't afford it.

Life ensures that there will be exceptions to any rule, but these rules have stood me well. They would have to be modified for starting or equipping a business.

As I am now older, occasionally I will save and buy a "premium" tool, more quality than I "need", for doing what I enjoy doing. The pleasure of using a tool well designed and made for the job, and not requiring hours of work to make it so, is a big plus. But I still adhere to rule #3.

JMTCW

Go

PS: Stretch: your statement "the weapon doesn't make the warrior." is right on target IMHO


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

*Dan Lyke*
Hmm 500 sq ft How did you come up with that. (Even My father in law in Tehachapi CA wants to know)
Back on point. I understand you point of getting in the shop and not sweating the bucks, but all good choices require some thought.

*Blue* 
Smart man. Although I never said "throwing their money away" ( I think)

*TheWoodNerd*

Sander is a sander they do the same thing. A Tool doesn't make the project the craftsman does.

They're worth it. You can't afford it. Get over it. Unless your a lawyer or doctor or above I'll compare pay stubs. Don't assume ( we now what assume means)

*patcollins*
If anything he was just saying he makes sound judgements and considers all things before jumping into a purchase. (As far as the bearing no clue)

*jm64*
I'm clearly in the hobbyist camp and after a lot of deliberation plunked down about a grand for the TS 55 and CE 26. Why? I have limited space to work in

Clearly a intelligent thought, For once someone came across a good reason for some hobbist to consider festool. Thanks for the added insight.

How about some one living in a Condo.

KayBee
I need you to really think and read the statements by others who got the point. No arguement.

*Gofor*

Ah another who understands. Well put statement.
I learned a lot from my Dad:

1. If its a tool you plan to keep using, buy the best you can afford. ("Best" does not always mean "most expensive". Do your home work).

2. If its a tool you only think you'll need once: Buy only good enough to finish the job, or rent it.

3. If you have to borrow money to buy it, you can't afford it.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

Okay, Resurrected, you have my vote. You came back with the best answers of all of us. Yeah, it's a "what do I GOTTA have, and why?" thing. You lit a helluva fire, though, because you had responses from hobbyists, pros, and "don't know yets". Festool's always a hot topic around here. Hats off to you for making adrenalin flow.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

It was not my intent to fire people up really "Blue"

OK Nerd Maybe

but it was about giving hobbist and newbie woodworkers options and logical reasoning behind purchases which you helped with.

A newbie with no tools and a 1000 dollar budget does not buy festool. You can't make nothing with just one tool. And to say save up till you can aford it. The poor guy will never get into woodworking until he hits retirement.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Resurrected: $500/sq.ft. is a slight exaggeration, but only just: $435k, 768 square foot house.

Now if you break it down by comps in the neighborhood it's really more like $250k for the location of the driveway, and the price of the house and lot are too closely correlated to break out much further.

But it does make the point that big stationary tools also cost real-estate, and if I'm in on a table saw for 80 square feet (space to run a 4×8 sheet through it) then the price of the saw is only one of the considerations.

To the "A newbie with no tools and a 1000 dollar budget does not buy Festool", yep, totally true. Nor does a newbie like that make cabinets with ApplePly, 'cause the price of the wood can totally swamp the price of the tools.

I will say that with Festool I got the tools to do basic furniture and cabinet making for $3.5k, in a size that'll go places in a mid-sized sedan. Though I'd also add a planer to that mix to do anything real. And whenever I holler about something gone wrong in the shop, my wife hollers back "You should've bought Festool", because invariably it's an annoyance with one of the tools where I tried to cheap out.

Having said that, there are people who make furniture I'll only ever aspire to with tools I'd give away. Woodworking's a hobby for me, and as such I only want to do the bits of it that I enjoy, and I'm willing to pay for that privilege.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

*Dan Lyke*
OK I really lost you the only thing that made even a bit of sense was.

Woodworking's a hobby for me, and as such I only want to do the bits of that I enjoy, and I'm willing to pay for that privilege.

OFF SUBJECT: Your prices in CA were well off. 200 at best. CA is expensive but not that.

$435k, 768 square foot house. I have to laugh about you CA people who pay this much for so little.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

Okay, look, folks….....in this whole damned thread. I have only one question, directed at Dan: 
How do I get my wife to insist on Festool?


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

LMAO


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

*Resurrected*: Yep, a few years ago a friend came out to visit and said "the currency looks the same, but I can't figure out the exchange rate". Stuff costs more, but it'd take a crowbar to pry me loose of here.

*Pete*: I think I'm pretty lucky, but we go tool shopping together. We're married mostly for legal reasons, and I usually refer to her as my partner or mistress. "My wife" is reserved for tales like when she told me "We're not leaving this store without the Domino and a planer. Now do you want the DeWalt, or…"


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

MY wife just said there is no diamond big enough to get her to say yes to them. I agree with her and she has got diamonds from me. Actually can't believe I spent that much for a rock. The joys of life and what we do to make each other happy. I know I would be aloud but I can't bring myself to buy a diamond tool when a kiss / flower tool does the same thing.

OH yea CA is where I met the wife 7 years ago.

Slightly Off topic sorry.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

I'm with you both on this…..in reality, if I say I need it, it's a done deal. We're both 51 (she's exactly 3 weeks older: robbing the cradle, IMO). We got married on 12/9/2010 after a couple of years together. I got her a VSI grade 1 carat white princess-cut engagement ring. That thing cost more than my 25" Woodmaster with the ProPack, 3-sided moulding system and helical planer head. Go figure on that, huh?


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

LOL I feel for you blue.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

Hey, Dan…... I just noticed that you're in Petaluma. I'm in San Diego now, but was a helicopter flight instructor for 13 years….. 11 years at Sonoma County Airport (Santa Rosa), but the first 2 at Petaluma Airport.


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## QuangFromCalgary (Mar 11, 2010)

WoodNerd, calm down man. Festool is way over priced, period.


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## Petewood (May 14, 2010)

LOL…..So is a Masserati. What's your point, "man"?


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## jusfine (May 22, 2010)

Aw, come on, don't start picking on my Masserati now…


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

For panting contractor or woodworker, I am only interesting in their sanders and dust collecton.
The rest of their products, I would prefer have other brands.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Blue, awesome! On my list of things I'd love to do but will probably never get around to, flying a helicopter is one of 'em.

Just to reiterate bringing this back around to Resurrected's original points: All tools have pluses and minuses (in the computer business we say "All software sucks. Some suck less than others."). People have developed the skills to take blunt pieces of steel and turn out nicer furniture than I ever will.

And different people have different priorities. Small space for the shop is prime for me. My dad also has a few short fingers, so I'm big on alternatives to table saws. And one of the most frustrating topics for me is "what tool should I buy next?", unless it's accompanied by "here's the cut in the project I'm working on that I'm having trouble figuring out how to do".


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

Dan, You're worried about the TS! Look at the bandsaw. They have these things in meat markets. It sounds so quite and harmless, and we work with out fingers all around the blade. The bandsaw also presents about 3 to 4 times the teeth per second to your fingers than a Table saw.

I know you hear all the horror stories about TSs but there are a lot more dangerous tools around a woodshop. The bottom line is if it cuts wood it'll cut you. Thankfully the TS & BS cut your fingers so that most times they can be repaired. Really look out for those machines that make hamburger (ie. routers & jointers).

Pop


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Pop, the most dangerous part about a table saw isnt cutting your finger off, its getting a piece of wood kickback right in the face.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

*patcollins*
Slightly off topic but usually with finger removal and kickback *its operator error. *

Yeap know about kick back. My fault each time.

Skarp
If your scared all your life where does that get you.


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## Pop (Aug 6, 2007)

I know guys. I don't understand it. Why is all the reports Table saws? From personal experience I was in 6 different wood shops from the 7th to 12th. grade. Dad moved a lot. (17 schools 1 to 12) Every shop just before or when I was there some kid put his fingers in a jointer. All doing the same thing. Jointing a thin piece of wood with no push block. Not one in a TS. I know that during the 50s, 60s & 70s the hand / finger eater was the radial arm saw.

What's going on? Have woodworkers figured out that pulling a RAS across your fingers is a bad idea. How about sliding miter saws? They're used on contractor sites. They gotta be slicing up somebody. The bandsaw is the fastest cutting saw. It gobbles digits before you know their gone. Yet no ones getting cut. Is the reporting just for TS? Routers especially hand held routers have got to be reaching out and grabbing somebody.

I would like to see statistics over the years. Has it changed over the years? This has really got me interested.

Pop


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## Scott10 (Jan 27, 2010)

I just spent $400+ on a new Taylor Made driver. How the hell can I justify that. First of all, I could have gotten one from Wal Mart for $100 and probably wouldn't notice much of a difference. 2nd of all, I need a quality router table, a drum sander, and a bandsaw. For some reason it made sense to me at the time. I don't own any Festool tools (wish i had the ROS and SCMS) but if Festool made golf clubs I guarantee I'd have them. I'm not a pro golfer but I do play competitively and wouldn't hesitate to spend the extra $s for a small % impovement. I have to agree completely with the statement "cost increases exponentially with quality".

In regards to the original post, I don't see a need to tell new woodworkers they need to buy Festool tools if they don't yet have the skills to get the value from them. As their level of skill/competence increases they can certainly begin to replace lesser tools with better tools. I don't see any reason for a 30 handicap golfer to buy a $2000 set of clubs (lots have them), but I certainly would not think of playing competitively with a $400 set. Anything that makes me more efficient (shaves a few strokes) is worth the extra $s.

Probably a lousy comparison but I couldn't help thinking how in my mind its the same thing (golf clubs/tools). I play with doctors every day that couldn't beat me in a 100 trys but their equipment costs 3x what mine does, and there are guys that beat me daily that haven't bought new clubs in 10 yrs.

Besides, If you buy all the best tools right off the bat, what kind of tool envy will get to experience. You won't even be able to look through catalogs and drool. You won't get to have any tool gloats. Pretty boring way to go about this hobby in my opinion.


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## Resurrected (Jan 11, 2011)

Scott10 Interesting I play golf. Made me think.

But as you are a better golfer than I and I have a understanding of golf and play myself (Fun Only). I want the litle edge over my buddies. I like winning.

Tools and projects I don't see a edge with tools. I just see a convience is all. Its like someone who like non powered hand tools. Those people have real talient and know they do not need a festool to give them superior results. Their just good.


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