# CAN YOU FIND PLANS FOR....



## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm always kind of amazed and befuddled at folks that ask for plans for seemingly simple projects like boxes or 
picture frames requested from people who have some very nice somewhat advanced projects listed . At first thinking about this I thought maybe it's because I have a lot more experience than others, but then I think of my first woodworking project(a corner entertainment center) and remember I just saw a photo and came up with the height,width and depth of it and it wasn't even a entertainment center photo. It almost seems strange to me to have plans other than ones I've developed. This is not intended as a brag or look what I do scenario. I just wondered if others have done the same since there beginnings in wood working. I wanted to know if the people who ask for fairly simple plans don't like making plans or just want to make sure there doing things the right way or maybe they feel there just being lazy. I mean no offence to anyone asking this question.


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## WayneC (Mar 8, 2007)

Perhaps it is the availablity of existing information that keeps some people from experimenting. A side effect of the internet?


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I know what you mean, I rarely have a plan for something I build for myself, family or friends, customers on the other hand I usually draw up a plan on paper or Google SketchUp so they can see it before I actually go ahead and build it. Most of the things I make are combinations of many other projects out there plus a lot of my own input, all the plans I need are in my head and rarely make it onto paper, I think it all comes down to is that this is a skill and some just don't have it, noting wrong with hiving or not having it, it's just a matter of our own personal preference of how we make something in the shop. Thanks for the post Jim, I was wondering about this myself.


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## ChunkyC (Jun 28, 2009)

I like plans for one thing, to give me an idea and a place to start. I've never built something exactly to someone else plans. For large complex projects, plans are nice to get you over the design hump but for simple items likes shelves etc, a picture is all I need. A lot of it comes from my musical background, "a variation on a theme." Take someones theme (design) and change it slightly to make it your own.


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## Rob200 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have found people can't think on there own but if you tell how to do each time they can.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

I'm the same way Jim, I can picture it in 3D in my mind and that's enough for me to go off of. I'll sometimes make a sketch for cutting purposes so I don't have to cut twice but that's about it. I've never built off a plan, I tend to incorporate things that I've seen in different items into one.

And many a time the design has changed as it's coming together (while I'm milling the wood or dry fitting) because I'll realize 'this will look better'.

I've got a few woodworking friends that are dead in the water without plans so I can understand it. They can't do their own plans either, they have to have the plans ready made for them.


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## CharlieM1958 (Nov 7, 2006)

I've never built anything from a plan, and can't really imagine doing so. But I guess different people's brains work different ways. I was always good with numbers, but totally stuck when it came to advanced math, because I have to be able to picture the logic in my head, the same way I have to picture a woodworking project in my head.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

The only plan I really need is how to get away to the shop! Seriously, I don't normally use plans except for ones I occasionally find in a woodworking magazine that I want to duplicate (mostly jigs). I agree with you that once you have an idea of what you want and what size, the rest is just preparing stock and joinery. I spent a lot of time doing plans once on Sketchup to make some tables. I cut and joined everything to plan and it worked great, but I could have just as well done without the plan. Maybe some folks just assume they need a plan from habit or the way they were taught.

Many new to woodworking also might not have developed the self confidence the older hands have acquired with experience. I have to confess that sometimes I just start out with a vague idea of what I am going to make and then keep modifying it as I get new ideas. This of course sometimes has an effect on the workmanship, but then I just call it a prototype (even if I don't ever make another one)

Woodworking encompasses a broad area of craftsmanship and with it all sorts of folks. I guess in the end it doesn't really matter how we do it as long as we enjoy ourselves and/or make a living at it.


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## Julian (Sep 30, 2008)

I also don't use others plans. I like to look around and make my own, whether the idea comes from measuring up a piece in person and then figuring the rest out, or just looking at pics online then coming up with a plan. Woodworking is full of problem solving and the design is just the start of it.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jim, Blankman is on the right track. It is a talent of being able to understand spacial relationships which not all people can understand. This is why some people cannot do drafting or art painting well. The talent is usually a natural one but can be learned with a degree difficulty, it is a talent you are tested for to enter a drafting and design program, you must be able to "see" the object from all angles in your head.
I think it is a good thing that those who don't have this talent ask for a ready made picture with dimensions that they feel more confident using. 
If you think of product drawing as being the work of another valid occupation and made by a craftsman in another valid occupation you find that a person usually excells at one skill much more than the other.
From my own experiences, teaching a student who does not have this talent in drafting and design is very, very difficult. The student has a hard time and usually will switch programs to something where this talent is not required.


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## asthesawturns (Aug 23, 2009)

I have Graph Paper, I draw it out to scale, make notes, then start buying materials. I also try to "plan in" a new skill, and a new tool I don't have already. I remember from my entertainment system and other project you folks will see soon enough, that I always make things more functional and complicated than they need to be. A side effect of the internet. Good Question.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

hey jim…good question to spur the thinking…...as for me..ive never used a plan i dont think…i get the idea and then formulate the dimensions…..and draw it out…i havent used sketchup yet…although i do have it downloaded….maybe the only thing i had to get the plan for was this red dress…i mean i didnt know the right length to show the right muscle or where my slip line would be…..lol…lol…...i could not resist that one…


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## Kevin_S (Sep 1, 2009)

I work more often without plans than I do with. It depends partly on the complexity of the project, but mostly I like to express my own creativity in a project. So I may customize an existing design or completely wing it.

I think people have different parts of the process they enjoy. I enjoy the designing AND building. Some folks may just want to build. For them, working from plans lets them focus on what they like.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I wonder if the technician at the transmission place rolled his eyes at me for not repairing the differential on my B-2500 myself. Or, if an irrigation specialist-friend was annoyed when I had to ask him a few esoteric questions about my planned lawn-sprinkler project. Do people snicker behind my back when I use my Garmin Nuvi to get to a tool warehouse in a part of town I've never been to before, even though I could probably find my way there without it? Do chefs look at me with disdain for adhering precisely to cookbook recipe instructions? I can't possibly prepare an elaborate dish or dessert without reference. I know the extent of my cooking expertise, and seek written instructions whenever stepping into uncharted waters. That is the well-reasoned approach to achieving good results in a discipline you are not that familiar with.
Think of a project that is beyond the realm of your 'gift', and imagine an expert looking askance at YOU, like the little punk behind the counter at the industrial-supply place who got sarcastic with me for not being able to answer his questions fast enough. How should I know the difference between a sealed bearing and a shielded bearing? I just wanted to fix my old router! 
Lots of diverse talents come natural to us, but for anyone who needs guidance in woodworking, we should not criticize them for having less ability than ourselves. They might be the person you call upon when your CNC panel saw needs a new microprocessor…. then the shoe would be on the other foot!


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I've never built anything with a plan; I can always see it in my head before I start.
Once I tried it and it came out different than the plan, could not fallow it to the end.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

By the way"poopiekat" we don't see any of your projects?


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

Jim, I have thought about that very often on here. But then I realize that a lot of woodworkers here are only beginners and they don't understand woodworking like most of us seasoned woodworkers. Years ago I might have asked the same question. I haven't used a plan for years to build anything that I personnally do. But we use plans everyday for the cabinets we build. So my point is let's just help those that ask for our help. That what this website is for.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

All interesting comments.
Hey poopiekat 
I don't think I said people could not use or ask for plans nor do I criticize people who use them that's there perogative. My only question was why people who seemly have the building talent need a plan for a thing like a box. do I ever use plans for machine assembly,instructions in a software programs, or trying to fiqure out how to cook when my wife's been sick YOU BET.Remember my last sentence
"I mean no offence to anyone asking this question." I'm not looking down on anyone that knows less than I do I'm only asking what others do. You are entitled to your approach to anything and every thing you do and I fault no one for doing the same.BTW Many people ask me questions on the forum and through PM s I always try to share what little I know with all of Ljs members and beyond. 
My best wishes to you my friend


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## woodsmithshop (Sep 10, 2008)

I have built from just an idea in my head, I do sometimes get a plan and use it as a guide only, on some projects I will have more than one plan and use different parts of each and work them in together, much of the time I sketch out on paper just to get a better idea of what I want. I guess there are as many ways to do something as there are LJs.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

OK one more thing in the Mix after talking with my wife she said maybe because I'm left handed and have dyslexic tendencies it has trained me to not to work from others plans both of these things might make it less lightly that I will understand or want to work from others plans. Do any of you feel that might be the reason you develop your own plans versus using pre made plans


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I am right handed but still work form my own plans, work off other plans and work off no plans.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I used part of a plan once. Someone asked me to build a carousel horse exactly like a set of plans from cherry tree. I got the plans and just got started when the photo shop they worked at and wanted the horse for closed up. The pieces I had cut sat on a shelf for a couple years until one day the LOML asked me to build a rocking horse for my grandson. Took the pieces and used them for it. LOL I do create plans for some of my projects when requested, but not always. I do know a lot of woodworkers that have never built anything that was not from a set of plans, but i would never hold that against them. Most of thier work looks a lot better than my stuff.


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## douginaz (Jun 11, 2007)

Hmmm, I have built my fair share of stuff with and without plans. I personally like to have a set of plans so I don't forget the dado at the bottom of a shelf or a set back or clearance this or that. I don't use them so much for direct 1 to 1 building, but more or less as a forget me not sheet. 
Later, 
Doug


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Simple definition:
Making something without plans is an Experiment
Making something with plans is Manufacturing


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## asthesawturns (Aug 23, 2009)

Left handed, right handed, I think these sort of distinctions are nothing more than mild generalizations. I think that a mere 60% of generalizations come from right handed people. I am right handed and just like to design my own stuff for my own needs. I let my wife decide what the next peice of furniture should be then I think about what functions I would like to see it perform, and how can I make that happen. Back on my workshop page, I have a picture of the "boot rack" my wife wanted me to build, she wanted just a rack to put boots on. I designed the what you see and she got upset for "overdesigning" 3 days later she asked me to build it. It even has a little drawer under the seat that when pulled out a "BootJack" pops up to help pry your boots off. Where in the world would I find plans for that, inside my nogging, and through a little experimentation and mock up. There it is. I promise that the next project I put up will be the boot rack. It is so totally functional and is probably the nicest thing I have done, maybe next to my dresser. There is another example, look at my cherry Dresser, where would I find plans for a thing like that?
Sorry, to be so long winded, and I hope I don't sound to full of myself, I am not great or anything, but I am kind of proud of the stuff I have done.


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## TerryDesilets (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm just a noobie here, but pookiekat made some valid points. Although someone may have the desire, not everyone has the same capacity for woodworking (I include me in this group). But really it all comes down to "vision", not eyesight, but the ability to visualize complex shapes and then to craft pieces of wood to that end. The best woodworkers and craftsmen "see it" and then go about building it. Others have it some degree, but struggle with the various concepts.

I am a graphic designer and can visualize many things, but putting it together into a table or chair just ain't gunna happen! On the other hand, I do draw my own patterns for carving decoys, I understand where it is I want to go and let that dictate my rough cuts.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Very good answer Jim…I know exactly what you mean I built without plans too but if someone wants to know measurements of what I did I would be glad to share anything with them.


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## BlankMan (Mar 21, 2009)

Roger, very enlightening, made me realize what might have helped, never thought of it before and explains one other thing too. When I was 11 in the 7th grade in Junior High School I took a Mechanical Drafting course for a full year. We had to do the the normal front view, top view, and side view of an object, but then we learned to extrapolate it into a 4th view on the same drawing that was a 3D rendering of the object. So I was exposed to it very young. I liked that course.

I still use what I learned there too. Like when you need to cut a hole for a pipe into a larger pipe/cylinder. The hole in the larger pipe is actually an ellipse or teardrop and I make a full size pattern, paste it on the larger pipe, cut it, and it's always been a perfect fit. Do the same thing with the smaller pipe to get a flush fit.

The other thing it explains has to do with a woodworking buddy of mine, he can't picture or draw or use 3D plans, they have to be 2D. My sketches are 2D for cutting purposes to get the right length and width mainly to minimize waste.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Just to clarify In some projects I have plans but I've devolped and drawn them myself.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Most of all my projects are posted here on LJ and I don't mine sharing with others anything, some just write things on here and never post anything, for me LJ is sharing.


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## asthesawturns (Aug 23, 2009)

I do have to admit, that I just purchased the repair manual to the broken KLR Motorcycle in my garage, I am looking forward to tearing it apart, fixing and replacing things and hopefully putting it back together in a manner the will allow me to ride it. So I can definately see poopikats point. But for the most part with something less mechanical the best way to learn is to learn from mistakes, thats why I like to include new skills and techniques into every project, so I can learn and grow. I figure Perfection is only obtainable by God, but it is worth striving for, and 15-30 years from now I might come close, but I need to make mistakes and find out why, what happened, what will happen, and how come that happened before I will ever come close. The only mistake I don't want to make is one that would cause an injury, I hope I don't need to learn those lessons.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Most of all my projects are posted here on LJ and I don't mine sharing with others anything, some just write things on here and never post anything, for me LJ is sharing.


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## okwoodshop (Sep 15, 2009)

I just finished my first maloof style rocker but couldn't afford the plans. I know it would have turned out better and easier if I had a set of those plans in my hands but I won't let that stop me. I have tried to use plans before but usually feel to confined when trying to follow them. However along with the freedom to make changes comes the ability to make more mistakes. Some people would rather not attempt a task than risk failure. thus they use someone else's plans. poopiekat, I think what Jim was asking is do you get the map out everytime you go to town or do you go from experience. sorry if I'm wrong Jim
dp


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Just to clarify In some projects I have plans but I've developed and drawn them myself.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

I found that a sketch you make for yourself is not a plan, if you purchase someone else ideas then I call it a plan.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

I have not posted any of my projects here, I have them on my web site and just can't see using someone elses bandwidth when they can be seen there.


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## GMman (Apr 11, 2008)

Why not papadan you don't like sharing here?


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

andrew said: "I also try to "plan in" … a new tool I don't have already. "

SHHHH!!!! we're not supposed to say that out loud!

with regard to plans… when i first got started in woodworking i sought them out, thinking they were worthwhile. but now i dont think they are. it feels to restrictive to follow someone else's though process - and if i cant envision the plans myself then i know i'm not experienced enough for it yet. using full blown plans just doesnt seem right - like if you were to mess up somewhere in the middle you would have to start over completely.


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## Russel (Aug 13, 2007)

With the variety of techiques for cutting, joining, finishing and other tasks, plans provide different perspectives on how to get the job done. Unless you already know all the techniques, plans for something as simple as a box can be quite educational. I've used plans in the past and learned all kinds of stuff.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I started making things of wood when I was a little kid without any kind of plan, just an idea of what I wanted to do. It has always semed natural to do so. I think it has to do with your ability to visualize. If I make something for my wife, she either trusts me or I have to draw it for her approval. She says she cannot visualize anything, but she makes beautiful afghans, many of her own design, but she draws a pattern before starting.

Jim, I'm right handed and have dyslexic tendencies. It is estimated that 10% of the population has them. I am also able to do many things almost as well left handed and right, but I'm not ambidextrous.


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## okwoodshop (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm right handed, my left hand is dumber than s^%t.


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

*Can anybody help me find some plans…for making plans?!*
When I first got my scroll saw, I went out and bought a couple of books of patterns, does that count? I was a whiz at drafting in HS, but I can"t draw worth a fig, so I busied myself with other people's ideas for a while… Then it occurred to me that I could trace and copy anything, and started developing my own patterns…
I've made a slew of signs, still make them, I don't have to re-invent the alphabet each time, do I?! 
As far as constructing things though… Plans? What are… Plans??? Besides dowels, I've never purchased a piece of wood, ever. Using only what "crosses my path" kind of limits my scope. If I come across a bonanza, I will and have made larger pieces, but it's hard to build say, a canoe, out of castaway sides of dresser drawers!! 
But, with all that having been said, there is a planning stage for every project. The part where I sit down and think about what's going to happen and when, how big, possible difficulties, whether I have everything on hand… I might even take pencil to paper and make some rough sketches, but that's just doodling while I'm thinking. Ultimately, the real sketch has to be on the wood…


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

We all use plans. It's just that some folks have them in their head while others like to have them on paper. Is there any real difference?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Well said Mike


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## JackBarnhill (Mar 8, 2009)

I've made things from plans, mine and others, and I have made things without plans.

If there is an object that I want and I know of a plan for it that is exactly what I want then I will use someone else's plan. It's the lazy side of me. The plan has all of the dimensions, joint layouts, materials needed , etc. I don't have to do any of the figuring.

If someone else's plan is not exactly for the object that I want, then I modify it or incorporate it into my own plan. And,as I said, I've made things without plans. These I have done because they were simple projects but, they took some trial and error on dimensions and assembly. And, they didn't turn out as nice and things I've build from plans, mine or others.

That's just the way I roll. Not for everyone but it works for me.

Great discussion topic, Jim.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Mike, I use digital image pro 10 to make my patterns from any drawing or picture. LOL


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

if you build ANYTHING…it's from a plan…whether it's recorded on paper or electronic or just in your noggin…it's planned in some way. For people that don't need plans yall sure talk about plans alot.

(nice image Dan)


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## littlecope (Oct 23, 2008)

Wow!! How cool is that!!


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## SeaQuest (Jun 2, 2008)

It sounds like I am definitely in the minority here but will speak up for those of us who do like to work from plans. I really dislike the design process of a project, I prefer to work from a plan. Having said that I almost always modify a plan to suit my own preferences but the plan gives me a starting point and often gives me design ideas I simply wouldn't have considered had I designed my own from scratch. Plans also help me to decide what types of joinery to consider, sequence of construction, what types of wood to consider and hardware options. I often cannot find a suitable plan for my own projects and have to create my own designs from scratch but looking for plans are usually a starting point. Maybe one day I will be able to bang out an entire project from scratch without any plans , but for now a set of plans gives me the confidence to tackle projects I wouldn't even consider otherwise.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey I just looked at Dans web site and realized something I hadn't really paid attention to , I may use the idea that other people have in there plans but necessarily there measurements .So in a way I lie. BTW cool web site Dan. Is digital image pro a real program?


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## adeptr (Mar 21, 2009)

I used to try to get plans for things when I first got into woodworking…..not so much any more. For me, it was a lack of confidence or knowledge (maybe both) in the beginning. Now I find it more fun and challenging to try to come up with my own desings or modify existing ones to meet my needs. Just thinking…......maybe there are others ivery new to woodworking feeling like I did back in the day.

Dave


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

I design all of my own work so plans have never been a issue for me . I am not interested in copying anyone else's work period !


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## gorDAN3 (Oct 20, 2009)

I always have plans - which are a combination of mental images and scribbles. The more complex the project the more detailed the scribbles, as I have learned that for me some things without plans lead to scrap pile filler. For instance, the cut shelf lengths for offset partial shelves that are to fit inside a cabinet box. Without "detail scribbles (plans) I have never cut the boards right the first time.


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## papadan (Mar 6, 2009)

Yes Jim, it is a Microsoft product.


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

Well Jim I will say that all my projects that I have post are from some kind of wood working magazine with that said I like working form plans I have been woodworking for 20 years our a little more as a hobby I have built projects that I had no plans but that project came from the others from woodworking magazines that gave the idea to start it and make changes to it I don't know why I don't work more form my on plans are designed I guess it because I like reading and seeing something that gives me a start and finish point and I think for me it to hard to decide what joinery I like to use I read some of the post above and some said that some people cant think in 3d I going to say that I can I work in auto collisions shop and when I have pull a cars frame and it just a mash piece of metal I have to thing how to hook chains to hold car and at the same time allow the metal I want to move move and being able to see that in my mind is easy for me and fast but when it comes to woodworking I don't do it for a living 24/7 and I like to lean something new when it come to woodworking like how to cut bevels on table saw our how to use your router for more than it advertised buy the manufacturer our how to make cove molding on your table saw and I try to build something out of these magazine that going to push me to lean and try new things and some times that leads to me making a lot of mistakes but I leaned something and how to do it I thought I share with you it was a good question thanks wood man


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Thanks Dan
Thanks All There's a lot of good insight as to how people approach a project. It's kind of the same as how we build things we all do it the way that works best for us based on what we know,what information we have about the project and what tools we have available plus available materials. That's one of many great things I like about LJs there are people form every avenue of life with great ideas and varied levels of experience. Isn't it grand.


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## tinnman65 (Jan 19, 2009)

If I saw plans for a piece of furniture I liked I would use them, why not if not just for convenience sake. Would I feel ashamed of telling anyone, no.I have done it plenty of times before and will probably do it again. I have plenty of woodworking project books I read just to get another person's approach to building furniture. I always try to stretch myself on my woodworking so if I design my own piece I usually try some technique I've never done before that I picked up from some book or magazine. Doing your own work is very freeing but you better know about proper design. What is the best joint to use?, did you allow for wood movement?,what is your choice of wood?. These are just a few thing I learned from using plans. When I started woodworking I built a book case, I sure would not want 100 books falling down on a small child because I didn't know the the right way of constructing it. I wish I was born knowing all about wood movement and dovetail joint's but I'm just on a long SLOW journey of learning everything I can about building furniture. It's a great post Jim, hopefully it will get someone who never tried to do there own design to try.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

I recall my first home project… a spice rack I made for my mother when I was 13. I carried home the single pine board that I bought at the lumberyard: a 1" X 6" X 10' board that cost me a whopping 32 Cents!!! In year 1966 dollars and cents. Lumber nowadays is too precious to haphazardly cut; who can afford to mis-cut their lumber by dimensioning on-the-fly? Mentally visualizing your cut list is a talent that is nurtured over time. A good set of plans eliminate this difficult step for beginners.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

Jim

I didn't have time to read the 59 post before me so I will add this: I loved Norm abrahams, new version of his router table. I just wanted the top, didn't have the time for the fancy drawers. From the photo of him standing next to the router table, I made my version with 4 mistakes in measurements. Mind you I never drew my own plan, I just went ahead and built it. I'm very happy with the table, but I know it would have been better with plans….any plans…I think many people would rather have a perfect project, and would find the 4 mistakes unacceptable.

Bob


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## woodworm (Jul 27, 2008)

I need the plan like this when tried to copy one but turned out not as nice as in the picture. 
http://lumberjocks.com/topics/11322


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

I for one can't work without plans. I have absolutely no talent for design, dimension, etc. I've built enough to understand that need for support here or dimension there, etc. But no plans-- disaster strikes as soon as I start cutting. I just don't have the gift of design and planning. With a plan I can build just about anything given the time and desire to do so.

For example, right now my house mate needs a bed frame. She wants a semi-Asian style bed and found a picture of one. So I'm thinking how hard can that be - it's four sides and four legs with supports for slats. Yet - I'm having trouble making it - why - because I have to make my own dimensions, my own decisions on where the supports should go, etc. from a picture. I've tried drawing it out on paper and on sketchup and have absolutely botched it on paper. I've almost have it done now - but it's been a struggle. I'm sure if I had plans that someone else worked out for me - I would have been done in no time flat.

With that said, once I've made one of something from someone's plans I can change it up a bit to make it more "mine," but I must have plans to start with.

I'm just one of those people who can think of what they want to do (and believe me in my mind I've made some very nice pieces!), but she can't draw it out or make it happen. I must have a plan.

Now as for plans themselves - good plans are hard to find. Now beggars should not be too picky - but some of the plans you can get are just not as explicit as I need. I really have to take plans and break them down into small parts to get myself to the point where I can follow through and make the project.

I really admire those who can think in 3D, decide what they want and can draw it on paper or on the computer. I sit back and wish the same for myself. I've managed a few drawings, but they are rare indeed.

With or without plan - I can't imagine not making sawdust!


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## Kindlingmaker (Sep 29, 2008)

Some people can only work from plans… Some can not work from plans at all… The differences in people are as different as the styles of woodworking. I am not a plan sort of guy but have respect for those that need them. I take life's knowledge and build and learn along the way and there are those that need the boundries of plans and exceed. We work the wood… We all work the wood in our own comfort or excitement or direction, we work the wood and enjoy the journey.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Firsty let me state that the following does not relate to ALL projects.
Betsy, on your bed project you would do well to obtain a "professional" plan.
Plans don't only give you dimensions of pieces to cut (Bill of Materials), if done by a professional that have built into them the correct engineering standards. Materials, distances and fasteners all have to be correct for the task the project requires.
Your bed frame would be designed with materials that can withstand the load and supports located where they are needed and fasterners (or joints) sized also to loading factors. Strength of materials, Moments and Shear specs are part of the design process. I don't know of any person doing design work who doesn't have a copy of Machinerys Handbook at the side. A project designed without these considerations may look good but may not be able to handle usage by everyone. eg: You may make a chair without engineering information, but how much static or live load would it take - if someone is 100lbs and another is 400lbs, then the chair has to be made to support the heaviest loading. Then you may also consider a Safety Factor, in other words what if 2 400lb people jump up and down on the chair? Then you have a live load not static so the plan may be designed with this information covered.
Lax engineering particularly in items made overseas is why they fall to pieces in no time, but maybe it is purposely designed and built that way to increase replacement sales????


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

I've had to work from blueprints all the time in cabinet shops. Sometimes I got a quick sketch with dimensions, nothing much really. We never considered these 'plans' like people are asking for all the time. No construction details or cut lists(those would have saved time). I think the people asking for the plans are really just asking for help a lot of times. They don't have enough experience or confidence yet to just start working and figure it as you go along. A lot of people seem afraid to make a mistake. There's no one there to tell them to put the dado in before you glue the frame together!


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Roger, i don't think there are any chairs engineered for 2 400#er's bouncing on them on a regular basis ;-))


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## scrappy (Jan 3, 2009)

I have used plans for a few things. Taking drafting in highschool and working in the field for several years, I learned how to make my own plans from just an idea or picture. I think this started as a youngster with limited toys. Back then if you couldn't use your imagination to come up with something you were very limited on fun.

With that said, On building Scrappys Squirt Man Box for her husband. We knew what size it was going to be but that was about it. We designed on the fly and redesigned to fit the woods needs. (after resawing and planing boards we had our thickness to use) All of it was done with nothing more then a general idea of where we were going next. Would a plan have been helpfull? YES.

For working on the lathe, I have never used a plan or even had more then a general idea of what it was going to be shaped like until I was done. The wood always decides what it wants to be.

Great topic Jim. It is allways good to make people think. We all need reminders that everyone has different skill levels and imagination.

Thank You for being provacative and starting this thread.

Scrappy


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## rustfever (May 3, 2009)

I always use a plan. Usually it is only in my head. But I must get a few basic measurments down on paper. then I make a story pole. From that point on, I am constantly changeing the story pole.

When the project is done, I always adjust the story pole to reflect the finished product. Next time, I won't have the fun, but will be able to make it in 1/3 the time.


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## croessler (Jun 22, 2007)

Now, I usually do not jump into these kind of discussions. However, for this I will make a exception. Not everyone has had someone to mentor them or maybe they never had the self confidence that some others do. Maybe they just need to get a few projects under their belts before venturing into the deep end of the pool. I say this because I think you are all good people and do not intend harm with these kind of discussions.

I would jut like us all to remember that we have a choice in how we respond to a request such as "where can I find a plan for xyz". That response can make a difference to someone, we can either encourage or discourage on any given day.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I agree Chris about how we respond to questions about finding plans.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

But those who don't use them don't know where to find them???


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## jack1 (May 17, 2007)

My best projects come from my own mind. Every time I've used a "plan", it seemed like twice the work if not more. I have always had to ad lib when I use one also…


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## studie (Oct 14, 2009)

Jim, you did it again! What, 69 replies in 10 hours? Excellent question that has many like me befuddled. Good design is hard to understand for most, even seasoned craftsmen. Rare is one that has 2 or more years of school in the subject. I have been lucky to work with highly educated architects with many years of expensive education so my work seems to shine of my own accord, not so entirely. We can build by instinct or common sense, our gods gift & experience by trade. But what about ratios, purportions, classic style elements and many other reasons to "build backwards" from the end result to the beginning? Not to disconnect from free style or allowing natural material to speak to us but even that form only works "well" with given ratios & logical sizings. I fear the blank page, don't know where to start but when I just go for it I'm usually amazed in myself. However, reflecting back I would always have done it a little different. 
You can see I'm contradicting myself a little here. Fun in wood working is letting imagination loose. We should not be strictly contained by rules but awareness of form & function is something all craftsmen need to consider.
Building with strength & reliability, understanding woods seasonable movement & limitations is a science of another subject altogether. Now that I think of it, too much to know takes the fun out of the reason we do this at all!
Great topic Jim


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Topamax - you sober again? lol
Man you must live a dull life and never watch "Dancing your Ass Off" or "Biggest Loser" on the box.
Can you imagine one of those sitting on another's lap?? Man you would have to weld or founder a chair for that type off abuse!!!! lol
The point I was trying to make is that our motto is "work safe" and we also need to "build safe too", but you knew that didn't you, you sly old fox.
I think Jim's subject was a good choice and seeing the posts you get many legitimate opinions, mine was that drawings are there for a purpose other than just looking at cutting sizes.
Most of us do things "out of our head" at times, ever had a plywood span that sagged after some use? Either the load is too great, the material is not thick enough or lacks supports. We can fix that, but a professional plan would have given all the correct information for the "ply" to do its job safely.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Sorry it's me again.
I forgot to related a true story of an event that happened some years ago here at some hotel which was holding a tea dance on a walkway balcony. The dancers danced and the whole thing collapsed with several deaths. The reason was that the walkway balcony was designed using span spread load formula which allowed for a certain amount of people to *walk* across it. However having many people *dancing on it *made it into a point or live load situation which it was not designed to stand. Hence the accident. Of couse law suits were many, the shear force on the joining bolts/fixtures at both sides of the walkway sheared off. The engineers defended themselves by saying they were told that it was a walkway and not a dance hall they designed, so the hotel was at fault for missuse


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

It is all about "measure twice and cut once." 
I almost always use plans, they are my first measurement so to speak. Then as I build I measure and check again for my second time. Saves lots of time, wasted material and produces reliable results. Plans for something totally new also give me a visual evaluation of size and proportions. I have redrawn some things several times before I'm satisfied. I almost always make changes to the drawing after the project is finished so I can do it better the next time. Other times the plans show problems that were not obvious in the initial concept.
Further plans allow me to go through similar cutting processes in an orderly and efficient manner. Saves a lot of duplicated set up time on the tools too.

I took "mechanical drawing" in high school, learned to use a basic cad program about 15 years ago and I'm now working on mastering Sketch Up…the hardest learning curve of the three.
Sometimes on simple things the plan is just a sketch with dimensions as a guide.

People who ask for simple plans are probably the same ones who failed the part of the intelligence test at school with the flat unfolded box patterns that asked you to identify them as 3D pictures, or visa versa.


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## mike85215 (Oct 16, 2009)

Somehow or another I think that this discussion has just about reached it's end…..I am very surprised that there are actually people that have read this and that have taken offence for one reason or another. I believe that the question was worded without any type of an accusatory intent rather it was an inquisitive question.
Jim in response to your question : I am a beginner, however I will say that I have used a plan one time so far….when using the plan I decided to deviate from it and as any reasonable inteligent person can surmise the plan immediately became useless.
Since that time I have used a photo or I have had a picture in my mind. Perhaps it really is easier for some than for others to frame in their minds what they want and then determine what they need to do to get there.
Mike


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i found these plans..what do you think…....materials list: i pound of thinly sliced farmers ham, 1/4 pound of cheddar…..one loaf on pumpernickel bread…..1 head of green lettuce..one jar of Dijon mustard.

1.take 2 very large slices of pumpernickel bread and spread the Dijon mustered and some mayonnaise so that its evenly covered. then you table saw some lettuce off and set it in the food glue, 3.take the ham and plane it down to 1/32 of an inch, stack the said ham to a level of 3 to 4 inches…..top it with cheddar cheese and a small amount of sour kraut and then insert it into your vacuum bag to bring it down to mouth size bits.
..after two minutes in the bag…remove and get a large amount of sandwich chips…use bench chips from rocklers if you so desire….pour a cold can of your favorite pop over ice and then ..go back and figure out what Jim is really asking….....lol…......


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Grizz NO NO NO
Please stop your Torturing me I'm trying to diet .But it sounds like a very delicious plan


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

oh i forgot…the most important step in the plan…butter the outside of the sandwich and cook it in a cast iron frying pan…....when the cheese melts and incrusts the meat and the fixins…and you hear that double crunch when its in you mouth…....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..you say…i love it when a plan comes togeather…....lol….just set out a druel cup…....


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Grizzman,
I'm on my way, just leave the sour kraut off mine.


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## jlsmith5963 (Mar 26, 2009)

jumping on the pile….
a1Jim I have read enough of your comments to believe that you didn't intend to offend by asking the question, however I can't recall the last time someone claimed a reason behind someone's actions might be laziness and meant it as a compliment… if I was your editor I would have edited out the 'laziness' statement (even if it's true, lol)...


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i think i know jim well enough to know that in this question of useing plans..and the likes…i know he was not looking to offend…..sure there are plans out there for probably anything you want to make…but…i think the more the person uses there own ideas and formualtes the measurements and does his homework on which wood he would like to use , the better the wood worker he will be…i believe wood working is an art form…and as such , the worker should be useing his imagination and by doing this…he broadens his abilities..the work i have done is simple in design, but, i have done it on my own…i look at other piecies…and get the general rules of proportion….and i did my homework to know proper highthes of tables and things..the point is i didnt need someone elses plans to make my furniture…i just did it…and if every wood worker will take that step on there own…the more they will learn…following plans does not stretch and cause one to learn as much as if he or she had done it on there own….....with that said…sit down to a nice mug of hot chocolate and a big fat ham sandwich…....and design yourself a nice wood working project…..do the work..its all out there, without plans…....and enjoy the ride….


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i will also put myself out there on one more point…and i know this to be true…..this is a different day and age from when some of the older jocks here were raised…we didn't grow up with computers as a entertainment resource…and as such many other dynamics were very diffrent…i have seen what this has caused and what it is causing now…the work ethic is much lower and instead of one being more assertive and learning from just doing…there is a dependence on the computer …and more time is being spent being entertained by these machines…younger folks need to learn from the ones who are in mid stride or near the end of there careers, to learn this trade..there is so much to be learned by these women and men…that there experience is invaluable…and if it is not utilized, it will be lost, and work ethic…and the drive to just take on a project and learn as you go and from doing some simple homework will be lost…....i can see a person sitting in front of a computer and saying…ok how do i build this…....I'll sit here and wait to see what it gives me…....ive got broad shoulders…and can handle any and all comments on this…for i know it is true…..the art of woodworking is a dieing trade..and any and all efforts to teach it should be taken advantage of.


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## Betsy (Sep 25, 2007)

Me again. I too do not think Jim meant any harm in a question like this. I think it's a legitimate question with good replies and ideas on either side. That said-- and mentioning that I'm very seldom ever offended by anything--this one comment did stand my neck hair up a bit:

"People who ask for simple plans are probably the same ones who failed the part of the intelligence test at school with the flat unfolded box patterns that asked you to identify them as 3D pictures, or visa versa."

I think that's a pretty unfair statement.

I for one am glad that there are resources for people like me who do need someone else to draw plans to make my ideas come alive. After all, we all learned from someone going before us. Some of us, just need it down on paper. If you are lucky enough to do it all from your head, and good enough not to waste material - doing it as you go-- GREAT for you. But don't think those of us who can't are not intelligent and can't pass a test with 3D patterns.

Just my two cents.


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## dustygirl (Mar 11, 2008)

I come from a family of non woodworkers.Everything I have learned and am still learning about woodworking has come from videos,postings here and books.I can't begin to tell you all how much it means to me to be able to see your projects and understand how you accomplished them.Also I knew absolutely nothing about different types of wood.But I am slowly learning.Also how to put the finish I want on something used to be a real problem.I've learned a lot from here on that subject also.So please don't stop showing how to,dimensions of pieces and how to join them up.I for one am truly grateful for all your info.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Roidger I drove by the hotel where that accident ocured about an hour before the dance party started. The walkway was assembled incorrectly. It was a local modification that was made on the job site that failed. I was visiting family so I never heard the fnal results of the lawsuits.

Jim: I like looking at plans to assist me in my research. I tend to go original in my designs, but even though I've been making things for a few years I like to see some of the tricks of the trade that are built into some of the projects. But I usually don't buy plans.

I bought one that came with restrictions that I couldn't sell the item that I made and it was a copy of an original piece madee about 100 years ago and they did some things in their plans that an itiot would do so if someone copied it they would know it was made with their plan. That turned me off from bought plans.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Wow I'm amazed(again) with the response to this question .Just for the record I fault no one for using and reading plans nor do I feel they are some how less intelligent than others for using plans. We all do things the way we need and want too. It harms no one to use plans or not. lets have fun and enjoy learning about and doing woodworking.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Grizzman, I could not agree more that we now live in a different age and the new generation has had to omit skills and craft experiences because there is not enough time now in their overpowering lives to do the things that we older folks did. In my opinion we were lucky to have had the free time to explore creativeness in a simpler, less torrid life.
I agree with Betsy about the unfair statement.
Woodworking can be a creative art, but it can also be a "manufacturing business".
Creative woodworkers rarely use plans because they are really "inventing" as they go. These people have the vision of what they want to make and are able to translate that in their head to a workable design - with a few changes here and there. If you make a dimensioned sketch, then that is indeed a drawing.
Now when woodworking becomes a commercial venture (not you guys doing art work) where your products will be used in the general public, then you become a "responsible" manufacturer where you should use an engineered drawing to work from, if for nothing else to just shift the liability of the product to the designer - not you. So using a drawing or not depends a lot on your product. But newer people will get more confidence following a sketch or drawing until they find they can do it on their own.
Those who know the obtuse nit wit that I am, a novice not confident enough to attempt fine woodworking, know that I made some yard furniture which I was pretty tickled with. However, I did design the furniture, made engineered drawing and templates, the premise was to make the furniture strong and long lasting insomuch as I could personally guarantee the product for 20 years of outside use. Seat and back profile angles were calculated and a simple adjustment for back rake angle and foot leveling was included. I know I can have the weight of 4 people on a chair and I know the material, protection and finish will easily pass the 20 year period. My main objective was to offer a product that you would not have to replace every year due to bad engineering and inferior materials.
There are types of woodworking projects that demand engineered plans and there are some that do not.

Oh yes Grzzman - do you have any Tums you could send me?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Karson
I bet that was an awful site, what a terrible thing to happened. Do you recall how many people died?


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Karson
From what I remember about it, they had used the wrong bolts and and the wall supports were too weak.
But like I mentioned, the walkway was never design to have dancing on it - it created a Live and sometimes Point loading situation. I too don't know the outcome of the lawsuits but I remember there were many.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

That's what they get for dancing!


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## KentS (May 27, 2009)

Wow, I just found this, and am amazed by the response.I really didn't have the time to read everything, but in scanning through, once again there is much diversity on this site. I think it basically boils down to how your brain is wired. I personally never use plans (except what's in my head) That works in my woodworking, but I would make a horrible engineer or architect. I tend to be more artistic in my approach while others come from a different prospective. I'll bet I would drive many of you nuts if you worked with me on a project. (Of course you might do the same for me--and neither one of us is wrong!)

I certainly don't think Jim was being derogatory in any way, but simply curious about how we all operate. If we all did things the same way, life would be terribly boring.

Thanks Jim


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## RexMcKinnon (Aug 26, 2009)

My 2 cents. It's like cooking, some people need a plan/receipe to do a good job. These people tend to be very precise and rarely make mistakes and can be relied upon to be very consistent. Others are more adventerious a have more of a experimental approach. They don't wnat precise plans/receipes because it takes away from their flexability/creativity. I think these people probably don't like to build the same thing twice.

In the end 2 groups of people both producing super products.


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

rex: to ad to that, its not even necessarily the product that counts - as steven tyler infamously stated "lifes a journey, not a destination!" ;-) and more recently by woody allen/larry david: "whatever works!"


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

I've worked from plans for the most part but occasionally, I will come up with something on my own. Typically though, if someone wants me to make them something, I will ask them to go to the greatest source of free information (internet) and find a picture that best represents what it is they are looking for. If I have seen something similar in one of my magazines, I will try to work from that. If not, I try to come up with the dimensions for the project and go from there.

Estimating cost is a bit of a bear for me though….that's another story in itself.


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## niki (Mar 26, 2007)

All my projects are designed by my wife that gives me a piece of paper with a drawing of "how it should look"...

When I ask for dimensions, she is showing me - on the wall - "from here to here" - "height- like this" and "depth, like this"....

After I "translate" everything to Meter, Centimeters and millimeters (sorry but it's easier to work with numbers like the Dollar is divided…  ), I'm just drawing the carcass on a piece of paper (free hand - no rulers) and build the carcass first…

After the carcass is ready, I measure exactly the inside and plan the dividers (or whatever) and so on, I finish one step, measure, make another drawing and cut the wood for the next step…

I never make a "Cutting list" for all the unit construction because things might change a little bit due to "not so accurate cutting", gluing or even by my wife that many times changes the design…

As for plans, just Google and you'll get zillions of them

Here is one example "Picture frame plan".....2,750,000 results
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=mhnvSobZA4WwnQP4vJmIDw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CBUQBSgA&q=Picture+frame+plans&spell=1

Regards
niki


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## AaronK (Nov 30, 2008)

lol i see how you've made the decimal system the "patriotic" option!


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

Hey I think I'm #100 to respond…............Do I get a prize? lol. Jim, what was the question? I'm more interested in what Grizzman is fixin for lunch. As for me, I do it everywhich way. Mostly my own designs and/or plans…..But it doesn't really matter how we do it as long as we enjoy it.


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## Karson (May 9, 2006)

Roger There were 114 people killed and over 200 injured. It was a dance contest on the main floor and some of the audience were standing on the bridge walkway. They were probably gyrating to the music but they were not dancing on the walkway. The top walkway collapsed on the lower one and they both went to the floor lever. It was a shortcut taken instead of welding the walkways to long bolts. The bolts pulled through the brackets and the collapse occurred,

A Wikipedia article is here


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## sophie (May 21, 2009)

To me it's like getting from A to B…if you know the way, then get going, but if you're lost and don't have a map, it's like being a virgin at a rodeo! Sorry, too graphic?? Meh.


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## FJDIII (Dec 20, 2007)

" I never made a plan in my life "

Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke.


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## jbertelson (Sep 26, 2009)

This topic hardly needs anymore answers, they've all been made!

But here is to the eclectic approach. You should get kudos for the product, not how you did it…......I bet I shouldn't have said that….......now there is a loaded statement.

What I am trying to say is, you think about and invent in the areas you enjoy, and copy and use quick methods to get the rest of the job done.

My downdraft table (see my blog) used a plan for the basics, but I modified it in two very important ways, conceived as I worked on the project. This saved me some time for a utilitarian project, but I still got in my inventive 2 cents.

My work in progress, my table saw switch, is 100% original. I haven't seen anything remotely like it, but I used Sketchup in the design, and measurements due to the complexity of what is truly a mechanical device. I am modifying constantly to fit materials and problems. Due to the complexity, and problems with tolerances, I actually stop what I am doing, and go to the computer and redesign in Sketchup to get measurements right. My digital calipers is getting a workout.

I rarely make full plans, occasionally rough sketch dimensions, and have never made anything where I followed the plans fully. Always modified them.

A pragmatist having fun…........


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## dragginbutt (Oct 30, 2009)

From a novice perspective, I think I need a general guide to start with, but I can say I never follow one to the letter. I use it as a starting point and adjust as I go. I have the scrap wood and sawdust to prove it too. I believe it may come down to a confidence issue. Some need the hand holding, some need a drawing because they cannot visualize it without it, some need to show the other half so THEY can visualize it etc. Me, I rarely do a lot of measuring and things always seem to work out in the end. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

The real deal is that no matter what it takes to get the creative juices flowing, it is a good thing and sure beats sitting in front of a TV screen or hitting the shopping malls with the little woman.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Karson,
Many thanks for the info and link. It was a horrible thing to happen and I did not know that so many people lost their lives - very tragic.
Did you ever go by or visit the site afterwards, and when did you hear about it after you had only passed the hotel a short time before it happened.
I can't imagine the horror after the collapse.


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## bench_dogg (Oct 23, 2009)

After 5 years or so of woodworking, I built my first project from a plan a few weeks ago; a workbench. I bought the workbench book and read some theory on workbench use, but in the end I decided the workbench was a means to an end and there were other things I would rather spend time building then a workbench. FW had a plan I liked, I gave them the $13 or whatever and just built it. The plans made it faster to build, left to my own devices, I could have designed the bench, but this way was just faster. Now I have more time to spend thinking about other things I want to build.


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## Schummie (Feb 3, 2008)

*I just saw a photo . . . . . .*
That photo was your plan, it was not something what your thinking out yourself, there was
no creativities from yourself.
What is than the problem, Jim?

Schummie


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Henrie
I don't remember there being a problem . Perhaps your talking about my blog on a pie crust table your right the technique was not mine and (I gave credit to those who I got the techniques from) but the size height and carving details were mine. I have learned most of what I know from books DVDs, TV and on line mostly techniques . Does that mean I never used a plan ever no I'm sure I forgeten something I used a plan on. I'm sure, I have when my students brings a plan they want to build from. Most of the time I develop my own plans. I hope your have one of you better days today. I wish you well my friend.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I think that one of the best parts of LJs is the variety. The projects range from the purely artistic to the purely utilitarian. The woodworkers range from the brand new hobbyist to the seasoned professional. Many forums are not like this. My wife frequents the GardenTenders sister site. There are probably very few professional gardeners on that site. At the other extreme, somewhere there is probably a site for brain surgeons to discuss their field. I would hope that there are no hobbyists dabbling in that field.

The point I am trying to make is that with such variety, it is not surprising that there are so many ways for the woodworkers here to approach their projects. And I believe that is a good thing.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

I quit reading about half way through - my brain now hurts! haha

and speaking of brains, just repeating some that has been said already, brains work in mysterious ways-and in different ways. We each have our own way of processing information and of thinking/creating. It's quite fascinating. Whenever I hear someone say "It's not rocket science!" I think-"well, for some it is!"


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## jeffl (May 3, 2009)

I like to see dimesions for new projects sometimes but usually wind up modifying the plans anyway, I usually see something work it out in my head and when I get ready build it.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

It definitely is rocket science for me Debbie. It's often difficult for me to just to find out which direction I'm headed, forget about traveling to the moon. Of course there aren't many straight roads in Norway so that does make it more difficult. You folks in the States and Canada have all the advantages with those super highways.


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## jimc (Mar 6, 2008)

Jim, some of us with less experience or imagination (I have never had much imagination) have difficulty visualizing how to design an item, not necessarily the overall look, but the small details. For instance, I wish to build a stand for my computer monitor, including a thin drawer. Now, to you that probably sounds simple, but I have been thinking on it for more than three months - how to attach the sides, how am I going to support the drawer, how cam I make it strong enough so it doesn't sag under the weight of the monitor, etc. I still haven't reached any conclusions on design. So, for some of us, it just isn't that easy.

Jim


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Jim
Besides the comradery I think Ideas and how do I do that's drew most of us here. If I knew Sketch up like Dave R I'd shoot you a plan for you monitor stand but I don't have that talent.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Jim Crocket,
The attachment and weight capacity without deformation is an engineered design task where materials and connections are selected to make sure your draw is safe and able to withstand a weight/load usage. Invariably a (may I say it?) detail drawing will be made showing the results of the calculated material selections and fittings. A sketch IS a drawing.
a1Jim,
I understand that in woodworking almost all of us make things out of our head and do a bit of trial and error, but there are some occasions when it is not smart to "fly by the seat of your pants" especially where public usage of your project is intended - but this only represents a few instances where safety is a concern. Most items we see that LJ's have made don't require professional engineering, but if there might become a public liability problem then you are best having a drawing to back you up. One of my old professor's told me "If it's not in Writing (sub paper), then It does Not Exist. So CYA if in doubt.
This has been an interesting topic and has covered many preferences. To each and everyone their own and all the help we can give to new kids on the block is great.
Well done Jim, you certainly racked up a bunch of comments putting you well on your way to 16,000 lol


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

MsDebbie, Look at the electrical question to see the same answer repeated again and again!!

Too bad those guys in Texas didn't follow the "Plan"!! :-((


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## RedShirt013 (May 17, 2008)

I often found that even though I might have a design visualized in my head, there are a lot more things to consider between that and making it. Especially in furniture, there are a lot I don't know in terms of ergonomics. These things I can pick up from others' plans which some dimensions are tried and true, rather than just something which I thought was right. There are lots of good plans that optimized material yield also, and help less experienced woodworkers (like me) mentally walk through the construction, rather then constantly encountering the "now how do I fix this" situation


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Topamax, better getting up late than never.
Now what's this about guys in the Republic not following the Plan?
For the record, I have not yet been able to download the Plan from Grzzman's brain, the connection keeps dropping out, apparantly the problem is at the brain end.
MSDebbie. You have to make allowances for some of us!
I was involved in a nasty accident a while back when I was standing next to CharlieM1958. He had a plan in his head for a heavy duty bookcase and it came out of his ear and fell on me. Don't get too close to those LJ's with heads full of Plans!
Y'all have a nice day - you too Topamax


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I was refering to the "contractor modifications", they should have followed the plan!!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Roger
Yes I agree that some things need plans that take engineering in account , I'm a 20 year contractor and for the most part what I build in that part of may business I must submit a plan .Most of what I build does not include sky scrapers so i can do a drawing to submit to the building department in 10-30 minutes. I guess like some one else said we should not confuse drawings or plans with engineering. Drawings and plans may or may not be the result of engineering. The crazy thing about the comments is that I was trying to limit myself to what I thought was just pertinent subjects and encouragement of others. Oh well I guess I can't help myself.


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Jim,
You have got nothing to fret about. Woodworking is such varied occupation/hobby that all ways of doing things is ok. I was just trying to point out there is one area where an engineered drawing is mandatory for the products made could face public liability. If you made anything for the government you would be up to your eyeballs in Mil-Spec. A drawing without dimensions or specifications is Art, while a Sketch with dimensions and instructions is a Drawing. Often in in a public project - let's say a large wooden stair case at a county seat, you would have to have a set of drawings signed off and stamped by an engineer or else you would not be allowed to build it.
So I really do agree with what you and others have said but please don't leave out the odd project that does require drawings. Ideas and research go hand in hand, the concept is in your head but will a #8×2" screw hold it up? - so refer to some specs to be safe. I think this is the way most woodworkers work and that is perfectly ok
Now Jim, be honest, just how many comments points has this discussion netted you on your way to 20,000??

Be happy.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Hey Roger
Don't I know you from some were the face looks so familiar ) That's a good point about government jobs
That's why I don't bid on them. I'm just a small time contractor no bridges, airports, or 100 story buildings. (Unless you've got a 30 million dollar job for me) The kind of work I do I know the specs and codes, and do the drawings in short order After 20 years i should know a little something. If it makes you happy I'll look in a code book or engineering report … right after I get that 30 million dollar job. ))

Be and stay Happy


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Unless you have a bureaucracy large enough to match wits with the one the government has and have the finances to make payroll and wait endlessly for your money while being required to pay your taxes and other government costs on time, you have no business doing government work. Trust me, I refuse to even bid them ;-))


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey Jim, If you want to have a laugh check out the "Who are they" post.

I really do hope you get a huge job and made some money. It has been a bad year and I find it is my duty to try to cheer folks up - do you believe that???? Now the truth:
After I take my meds I have to endure the side effects for about an hour. They make you feel spaced out dilusional and light headed, so that's the time for me to get on to the LJ site where I know I'll find others with the same problem. It has wroked so far!!!

PS I took meds 30 minutes ago


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## okwoodshop (Sep 15, 2009)

Roger , you shouldn't complain about bein spaced out on med's. I have a brother in law who pays alot of money to stay that way.LOL (not really funny but it is) I have to keep my medicine hid. It does me the same way but I don't see the thrill. And I can't go around the shop till it wears off.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Wow, this is really interesting. I've had enough correspondence with Jim to presume his question is purely a philosophical one and there is no intent to offend. Speaking as the newb that I am (and probably always will be), I would like to mention that we newbs tend to doubt ourselves (as mentioned earlier). There is another benefit to using plans and that is they are educational. I have looked at plans and said to myself "Damn, I never would have thought of that!!". Most of us are not engineers or architects, and we haven't been at this long enough to just "know" how something needs to be built. I'm also lazy


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You guys are lucky to have meds that work!!


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Topamax.
My meds *stop* me working!

Your turn.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

When the idiot od me on Topamax, it nearly stopped my life!! He admitted under oath he didn't know anything about the mfr's tests showing not to exceed 200 mg for migraine prevention. Why does the state of WA allow the idiot to be a DR?? It wasn't a big deal. Only cost us 250k and took me 3 years to be able to type again.


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## 13045 (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't use drawn plans, woodworking is a puzzle and I get to cut and fit the pieces .Love it


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## Roger Clark aka Rex (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow Topamax you have had a rough time and I agree with you about the doc.
How are you now? Did you manage to get the right treatment?
I feel for you bud.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

HEY Tomamax
I'm sorry you have really have had a tough route to go. I'm Glad you have some fun here on Ljs were glad your here.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I ignore low level migraines and live with the others. I'm fine. My son researched the meds to discover why I was crazy. The fellow who was going to fix the Topamax side effects wanted me on high doses of Seroquel sitting around twiddling my thumbs for the rest of my life. As bad off as I was on Topamax, I was still able to figure out the DRs were totally nuts!! We fired them. People need to be aware these clowns get kick backs from the Pharmas for writing prescriptions. When a Dr screws up, the patient is up against the Great White Wall. There isn't a Dr out there willing to diagnose another Drs incompetence, at least not in WA state.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

At last I understand you site name Bob. A scary story. I also have migraines, but mostly see lights in my head and not much pain. I have had them for 40 years now. I get them fairly frequently, but I don't take anything for them. However, I do know that there are many folks out there really suffering with them.

Your story just points out the negative side of modern medicine. I take about 6,000 tablets a year for various things and have been doing so for 30 years. These medicines help, but I have also seen the effects on others of inappropriate meds. It seems to me that many doctors have their favorite meds which they tend to use on almost every patient for every almost every illness.

It seems to me that doctors often treat the symptoms without trying to find out the cause. My wife is a nurse and she carefully reads the side effects and dosage warnings for every med we use. Everyone should do that. My daughter-in-law is a pharmacist so we also consult with her when we feel the need. There is a program here in Norway where the pharmacists are working closer with the doctors to improve the process and selection of meds for patients. I don't know how well that is working, but in principle it does sound like a good idea. Also they should make kickback schemes illegal as this is a blatant conflict of interest and frankly I'm surprised it still exists.

This is certainly off the topic of using plans and woodworking, but I wouldn't be surprised if wrong or inappropriate meds are preventing a lot of people from enjoying their woodworking hobby and/or profession. Maybe your story will create more awareness.


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## dragginbutt (Oct 30, 2009)

Not sure how they do it in Norway, but here, the doctors are inundated with salesmen pushing thier products. Giving free samples etc. My cardiologist has frequently given me a few to try, but he has always taken time to explain all the medications, and how they interact and what is the expected result. I also understand that this is not "Normal". I am sure that there are kick backs, but what are you going to do? I know I feel much better when I take them, and not so good when I don't. So far, it is 17 per day.


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## dragginbutt (Oct 30, 2009)

Stefang, talking about super highways… well, you certainly have never driven I-95 in rush hour around Washington DC. 8 lanes of parking lot. If you get above 5 MPH, you are lucky. Over a million cars a day through this section of highway. Weekends are even worse than during the week due to people travelling north or South for vacations etc.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Dragginbutt I know all about freeways. I spent a good many years living and working in the Los Angeles area. It is true that it is worse over there with traffic hour gridlock and long commutes for most folks. I was just kidding around with my superhighway comments. On my way in to L.A. everyday on the freeway I used to think it would be nice to jump out of the car and just run on top of the car roofs to my destination instead of sitting there going nowhere.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, I've never seen the light(s), pun intended ) I'll trade pain for lights and aurora any day!! People need to check the side effects and NOT trust the dr. It's your life he's playing with. If it's strong enough to help, it's strong enough to hurt.

My mother is a retired RN. She said she didn't know any Drs personally, but it was common knowledge that part of their income was for writing prescriptions for specific drugs. The Drs in her generation had a different set of values than the ones coming out of school today.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

I sure agree with you there Bob.


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