# Paying the bills with woodworking



## tncraftsman (Oct 21, 2009)

One of the bloggers I follow has an interesting blog which covers the business of woodworking. He has an e-course on making a living in ww and wanted to pass the info along to everyone here who is interested.

http://www.woodworkersjourney.com/are-those-sawdust-piles-paying-your-bills


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## FatherHooligan (Mar 27, 2008)

Not knocking the course because I haven't taken it, but the $27 price tag and the typos in the ad make me a bit nervous about what exactly I'd be getting for my 27 dollars. I hope its a great course and he gets a lot of hits on it.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

If this gut can eat out with a freind for 27 bucks I'd bet he's pulling in the clients that will slowly starve you to death. You'd be better off doing real research, talk with substancial people who are sucsessful. There are hundreds of guys on this web site who if you asked to meet with them they might be willing to give you an hour or two of there time. Oh, and if you take a fellow lumber jock out to eat….it should cost more than 27 bucks
no Mc Donalds lunches!!!! LOL


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't mind paying for education. I checked out the website and was unable to find any archived information. How long have you been following this blog? Has the info been quality or has it been directed to getting you to purchase advice?

College courses can be spendy so if these are quality business courses directed specifically to the woodworking business, it could be worth it but there are plenty of resources available for free. My approach has been to take formal business courses then supplement those with free info I find on the web. Woodweb has a great business and management section and recently I found a blog that is great called the business of woodwork. Both are free.


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## pgcales (Dec 3, 2009)

I've worked with Adam, the person who started this blog, and I can attest the the quality of his work and service. He's personally helped me on numerous occasions with woodworking-related questions, and has never asked me for anything in return. As his post says, he is genuinely interested in helping people be successful. I think for someone starting a woodworking business, this would be a great and inexpensive resource to invest in. He also hosts a free, weekly online chat session called woodchat that's open to anyone who wants to participate, learn and share. I'd at least try to learn a little more information about him and his blog/service before making uninformed judgments. God forbid someone try to make a living passing on their expertise to others. Sure, there are lots of resources out there in books and online, but in this day and age of anonymous information, it's refreshing that someone is interested in giving trustworthy, personalized information.


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## Lip (Apr 25, 2007)

I haven't taken the course, but have been following the Adam King Studio for awhile and he seems legitimately interested in helping folks out … the information he's passed on to me has proven to not only be relevant but very informative and insightful … while I always appreciate free advice … the truth of the matter is that when I started looking into making this a career … I wanted to sit down and talk with someone who had been in the business for awhile … someone who was willing and able to not only answer the questions I did have … but the questions I didn't even know I had … I started out by asking local professionals … I offered to treat a couple to lunch (as some have suggested) ... and even offered my assistance (help clean up or whatever they needed) just for the chance to get to pick their brain for some information and insight that might help me get up and running … to my surprise … not only were the guys I talked to unwilling to help … most were flat out rude about it (note: none were LJ members that I know of) ... I eventually ended up packing up my things and moving out to CA for two years to get my AA in woodworking technology … and must say the tips and information I've received from the Adam King Studio have rivaled any of the guest speakers and workshops I've attended over the years … to be honest, I've paid more than $27 to attend workshops that weren't 1/2 as informative as the information I've received from Adam for free …

Either way, for those that might be interested … I would suggest contacting Adam yourself if you have any questions …


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## Matt (Apr 23, 2006)

WOW! I can't believe how much this site has changed. I remember receiving my personal invitation from Martin shortly after it first went live and watched as it grew over the past few years. The one thing that made LumberJocks so great was the open sense of community and open minds of those involved.

Seems lately LumberJocks has become the place you go to tear others down while pretending your "insight" is so much wiser than anyone else.

Why don't you try doing a little more research on the people you're so ready to tear down? Just because a website doesn't have months of archives doesn't make the author a con-artist. Ever stop to think perhaps all this time they were honing their craft? Ever stop to think they were living, learning and in turn teaching the very subjects you claim they're now trying to scam everyone with?

Adam King's background as a craftsman and now teacher is well worth taking a look at. His expertise and understanding of what it takes to start up a woodworking business, something many of us can only hope would happen, is worth more than a meager $27. This program is worth 2-3X's the price.

But Adam's desire to help others achieve their dreams, whether it's to work as their own boss at something they love or to just share a few good woodworking stories is something he'd rather underprice instead of limit it's access because of a price tag.

If you base the worth of an education, the worth of a tool or the worth of a person on a price tag what does that say about your worth?


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## Sparky977 (Mar 19, 2008)

Just wanted to add my support and endorsement of Adam King. I've known him for almost 2 years now and have become good friends in that time. He has done so much to push me out of my lazy comfort zones and get me to honestly pursue my passion, building furniture and tools. Like the other guys mentioned, the amount of help Adam gives woodworkers for free is amazing. I think its great that he has chosen to focus even more on helping woodworkers build a career doing what they love. One of the reasons that he started www.woodworkersjourney.com is because of what he saw missing for most woodworkers who try to do this full time: they lack any knowledge of running a business! Sure, they can make a beautiful dovetailed box, but they can't market it, can't find customers, and when they do sell it, they charge so little they should have just given it to their Mom and saved the hassle. 
So, yeah, you can get woodworking advice for free anywhere. Great advice, horrid advice, and everything in between, but Adam offers far more than just how to use a chisel properly when opening a paint can. He offers what he personally learned about running a business, much of it the hard way, so that we don't have to take the hard way ourselves.


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## Sparky977 (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh, and in case the stick in the muds around here didn't get it, the using chisels to open paint cans thing was a joke.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

The poster just says go here, give this guy $27.00 it's great, I follow it. The page he sent us to reads like an info-mercial. So what were we supposed to do. Go to this site, do all this research and then what, give this guy our 27 bucs for business enlightenment. The poster could have given some more info to help his blogging buddy. So don't come on here with your expectations of everyone on this site and tell us we should do more research when the poster could have given us some more info to begin with. I don't have time to research this guy, but at first glance I would have said this guy is bogus too. How do you know that these guys didn't do some research and find that your benevolent mentor is still a crock.


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## Sparky977 (Mar 19, 2008)

Really? It's that hard to enter the name Adam King into Google? Did you read anything else posted on The Woodworker's Journey site? Did you happen to check out Adam's other site, adamkingstudio.com? No? Big surprise.
A guy comes on here to share something he is excited about that another woodworker is offering, and all you guys can do is mock him? He never told you to go give Adam your money. He shared something he believed in. I guess he just isn't elite enough around here to be listened to though.
I now remember why I gave up on Lumberjocks. The woodworking community on Twitter is much more helpful, and much friendlier.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

I told you I didn't. And I should have posted that comment to Matt. I didn't say this guy was good or bad but just what I saw on that page and what my thought would have been without doing any research. The poster gave very little info, and sends you to his e-course page. Why should I give validity to this guys advice or info if he isn't willing to give any background or any real info himself. This guy gives a crap review and no info on this guy and then others give their thought and we are the bad guys. If the poster really thought highly of this guy then give a little more info and make it worth my time to research him. And, if you hate this site so much than get off of it.


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## woodzy (Jan 24, 2011)

I know i'm just going to PO someone but his site looks really proffesional and he seems produces a lot of nice furniture.

www.adamkingstuido.com


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I looked at his site and it does look like an infomercial site….which is *good marketing*.

If a person wants to make money with their woodwork they must know how to market and sell as well as being a top notch woodworker. Most infomercial sites are put together by someone who most likely does not spend countless hours crafting what they are marketing…they do it just to make a buck. So when I see someone passionate about their woodworking …I respect them and don't usually classify them with the generic informercials for put together by non-craftsmen…unless they show themselves to be other than sincere.
I have always done things to improve my woodworking and marketing skills.. and most certainly spent money in the process. $27 ain't nothing to hopefully learn something..and I also noticed a *"money back guarantee"* if not satisfied..

By the way, I do not know Adam and this is the first time I have seen his website and promotion.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

You know I just get PO when someone doesn't take anytime to state any info and then sends me off on a goose chase to do my own research. If the guy was really promoting this guy I would have taken the time to dig a little deeper. I would have spent ten minutes reading his thoughts on "Adam". This was a crap post and then the guys that say that get persecuted. I certainly have paid a lot more for a lot less. Come on Sparky and Matt the guy didn't even say the bloggers name. He didn't even give a reason for me to go to the site. 
I blame Mark for bringing this post back. J/K Mark, I like that you go back and try to answer or give some sort of feedback on silent threads. Keep it up.


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

I've been waiting for a reply on this one as I am currently looking to take some more business classes. Thanks to all that provided info on the instructor.


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## NikBrown (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow there are some bitter people here….. I haven't taken the class (but I don't sell my work). But…. I've met and talked with Adam and he is honestly one of those people that just enjoys helping people….. and it's not like he is charging exorbitant prices.

Having paid my way through Under grad and Grad school, $27 dollars is a steal!!!

Even if you glean even one tiny pece of business advice from Adam (who has starved for his Art, and now makes a decent living at it) it is WELL worth it.


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## Matt (Apr 23, 2006)

I'm not continue to beat dead horse on this topic (although I can be good at that if anyone has ever listened LOL). I think some conclusions were jumped to, right or wrong, on the original purpose of this thread.

When you find something that really fills a void for you personally you want to tell everyone. Unfortunately this proves the fact that not everyone will feel the same way about it. Could a little more info have been provided…perhaps. But more can be said with less (something I'm finally learning).

Rather than give you my every little opinion, I'd rather say "here's something really cool I've found, check it out for yourself and I hope you find it cool too". Personally I don't want everything spoon fed to me, I can make up my own mind on whether it's worth my time or not.

As I said before, if you base the value and worth of something on a price tag you'll always miss out (con-artists know driving a Cadillac and wearing expensive clothes and jewelry is all it takes to win over a sucker everytime).

And as for making a living at woodworking, who said you have to get rich at it? The e-course doesn't claim that at all! If anything, for the price of $27 you get advice that helps you to decide whether this is something you want to pursue seriously full-time, part-time or not at all. Beats the heck out of dropping $1,000's on equipment and space to discover you don't have the drive or understanding of what a market needs or wants.

Personally, if I can make a living doing something I'm passionate about, support my family and in the end look back and say it was worth it…I don't need to be the size of Ethan-Allan to do that.


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## Matt (Apr 23, 2006)

Seriously? Come on, let's be real. Are you telling me every professional woodworker who owns their own shop and builds custom pieces is making less than $10/hr or are you implying they're rolling in money?

There are plenty of pros who make enough money to live comfortably and they're not selling in furniture stores nationwide. They're successful because they know their clients and their clients love to tell others about them.

Half the job of owning ANY business is knowing your market. You don't have to be a huge company to be successful, you just have to be willing to adapt. There is no such thing as a sure bet, no such thing as one formula to success. There's just hard work, and that doesn't mean it's all physical either.

There's a reason I still work a day job that's not related to woodworking. I'm not a business person and I'm not ready YET to open a full-time shop. But I'm confident if and when the time comes, I'll do enough of the leg work ahead of time to make it worth the effort.

In the meantime, I'll build for me.


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## Matt (Apr 23, 2006)

Nothing wrong with caution. Point taken.


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## pgcales (Dec 3, 2009)

It's not like tncraftsman is giving a review of a product or service here. All he did was post a short, simple link to a resource that he is obviously passionate about, and wanted to share with other people. I think it's pretty safe to assume that a person would check out the "poster" and seek more information if it piqued their curiosity. CharlieL: As far as woodworking goes, all my clients appreciate (and are willing to pay) for one-of-a-kind work. I didn't make a lot of money in my first full year of furniture building/art, but I made enough to tell me that it's worth the risk and time to keep going, improving and working my way up. Interestingly enough, Adam, Scott and the other people I've met have been a big part of helping me move forward. Where I live, the small shops are the ones doing well; it's the big, mass-produce cabinet shops that seem to be struggling. What does that tell you?


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

pgcales, the problem I had with the original post was it directed you to a page that did not even mention the name of the instructor. Then when I clicked on the home page, stilll no name. So then I went to the contact page. Still nothing. So I then posted a couple of questions to the OP to verify that this was indeed a reputable instructor and I got no response until you jumped in to the discussion almost a month later.

By the way, thank you for reviving this post and providing info on the instructor. Everybody else too, especially Lip. Hopefully I can return the favor by getting you to visit the links I provided in my original post up top… some really good info for people making a living in this business.


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

Charlie, I can understand your skepticism, especially in this economy, but there are plenty of people making a decent living in various parts of the woodworking industry. Sure, it's difficult. But there are ways a small shop can compete and even thrive.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

Charliel, I am assuming that you had a bad experience with running a wood working business. Not everybody has had that experience. I count myself as one of those.

I run a custom woodworking business full time and have a few employees even. I have thousands of clients around the world both wholesale and retail. Have a separate shop that is 5 miles from the house. I pay my self more that $10 per hour plus benefits. I am telling you these things so that you realize that I am not blowing smoke about what I do. My website is www.HollowWoodworks.com.

Running any business is not just about the work getting done. I have learned that running a business is about performance of the job, customer service, salesmanship, marketing and bookkeeping.

I was fortunate to be able to learn these things in my real jobs that I had before doing this. Not every one has the benefits of this that I did. By the way, I attend college courses on business throughout the year still as you can always learn something new or be reminded of the things that were forgotten.


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

That's fine if you feel it is no longer worth it. Yes it is difficult.

There are several small shops in my area that are turning a profit. Albeit barely. But from my own personal experience, I did fairly well as an installer/trim carpenter for a few years. Now I am building a business around wood screen and entry doors. I sold hundreds of doors last year and have been able to get set up with 3 retailers and a fourth has expressed interest. Still not enough to completely rely on this as my sole source of income but the business is headed in the right direction.

Others have had a lot of success exporting high-end furniture to developing countries. Exports of all-wood furniture to countries like China, India, Mexico and Brazil have doubled and even tripled in this last year.

It is definitely a different game than 30 years ago but there is opportunity if you know where to look.


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## pgcales (Dec 3, 2009)

Colin: Thanks, and sorry if I opened up a can of worms and got a little testy. I'm probably a little biased given that I'm pretty familiar with Adam and his work, and thus didn't need to search for a lot of information. Perhaps he'll see these posts and maybe use them as a critique to improve how he shares information, if he feels that's necessary.

CharlieL, I'm sorry that your experience hasn't been as positive as mine. For the past year, I've looked forward to waking up everyday and going into the shop. That's more than I can say for any other job I've ever done. And in my case "clients" just means clients. It's very challenging on the business side, but ultimately rewarding overall. I guess it's just not for everyone.


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## Lip (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm going to be real honest here … I can't knock CharlieL for his opinions on the idea of "paying the bills with woodworking" ... some of the most skilled woodworkers I've ever met were never able to make a decent living at it … and I can't think of a single instructor who didn't talk to me about how difficult the business can be … or count the number of times one of the instructors or guest speakers pulled me to the side and asked "so you're sure this is what you want to do?" ... the truth of the matter is that this can be an extremely difficult business to crack into … *especially if you think you're going to make a decent living on your woodworking skill alone* ... that being said … if people are going to knock the OP for leaving out a lot of information … I think the same can be said for some of the original responses …

Coming from the computer engineering field … the funny thing is that for every giant you've heard of such as Google, Microsoft, or Apple … there are tons of small start-up software and computer businesses that struggle and fail … in fact, Steve Jobs' own Next venture burned through about $250 million in capital in the early 90's with little if any success … yet most people have never even heard of it … instead, they know him as the guy rolling out the latest version of the I-something-or-another …


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## BobG (Apr 17, 2010)

My god when you are promoting someone, or someones website, I would think civility would be the word for the day.

Just because some one doesn't like the way the website is presented doesn't give anyone the right to jump down that guys throat. Shape-up or gods sake!

Or as someone else said, "get out"!


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## Jimi_C (Jul 17, 2009)

I have an Ethan Allen couch. Trust me, they didn't go out of business because they couldn't mass produce stuff, it's the fact that they mass produced pure crap. Charlie, you're obviously skeptical, but why not just say "No thanks, not for me" instead of continuing the cynicism?


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## JohnGreco (Jan 13, 2010)

wesand: "You know I just get PO when someone doesn't take anytime to state any info and then sends me off on a goose chase to do my own research."

OMG! Say it's not true! You were expected to *gasp* do your -own- research? How do you buy your tools? I don't have the best tools, but I have the best tools that I can afford because I research the hell out of anything before I spend money on it.

You want to spend money on woodworking business courses? Research Adam. Not interested in spending money on something like that? Then ignore this thread and move on.


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## juniorjock (Feb 3, 2008)

First off, listen to John….

Second….. As far as Chuck goes, just go with it. It's what he has always been on LJ and what he always will be. Most of the time he doesn't get rude and start calling people names. If you haven't noticed, it's either one of two or three things that set him off. And the problem is that when he does go off, no body listens to him. Either listen and post responsibly or just move on…. It ain't gonna change just for one person.
- SY
- aka JJ


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## Robinson (Jan 11, 2011)

I have been self employed about all of my adult life. I am now a couple of months away from 69. During the times I worked full time for someone else I always had at least one enterprise still going and I have always farmed from the time I was a kid. The farm was the constant, anything else could come and go. If you think going into business just involves making a single product to start and finally retiring still making that product then I would advise you against it. If you find a product that will consistently sell long term you can expect everybody and his brother to compete with you. Any time you figure out the rules they will change… 
People used to think I had all the answers since I owned a store for over 20 years and they often came to me for advice. Had all the answers like hell. I spent every day looking for new answers. Every day… Good answers only have a shelf life of about 3 months. I really hated it when old friends came to me with an idea they had. I hated trying to be honest with them and bursting their bubble. I don't like stomping an anyones dream. Still how can you let them put every penny they have into something that just will not work? I once had an old friend that came to our store and he had a dream. His wife insisted that he run the idea past me since I had owned businesses so long. Well, his idea was rebuilding mo-ped engines. Mo-peds had been pretty popular at that time but their glory days were waning already. He wanted to rent a store building (which usually calls for a two year lease) and start rebuilding these engines. He didn't want to do other repairs, just rebuild these engines. And he only wanted to rebuild one brand of them. I tried very gently to convince him to try it in his garage for a year and he did but I don't think he ever actually got anything really going. I just kept asking questions. How many mo-peds were sold in our county? Sadly while there are 40,000 people in our county I seriously doubt that there were 2,000 mo-peds sold in the whole county. All three local dealers had already gone under. My store was in a strip mall at that time in a building where one dealer had been until he went under. I doubt that there were enough of that one brand of mo-peds sold in our county that had he rebuilt the engine on every single one of them (not going to even come close to happening) to have paid his first months expenses on a store… Rent,deposit, heat, lights, phone, advertising, insurance etc. then how could he have lived the second month? Now had he been willing to look at a full small engine business on lawn mowers, chainsaws etc. I might have told him to give it a shot if he could keep his debt down.
Another factor was that we sit just outside of Indy and for every customer that came out of Indy a thousand local customers went to Indy to buy instead of buying at home. Just another one of hundreds of demographics you need to know about before putting your money in your dream.
The same kind of thing applies to most things including woodworking for a buck. If all you want to do is make solid cherry salt shakers for the next 20 years I honestly don't see how you can make a living at it… Most people already own a salt shaker and they don't tend to wear out very fast.  So many products reach a saturation point really soon. If you want to have a good product business wise find something that "gets no respect". Over the years the two constantly consistent enterprises we had were vacuum cleaners (sales and service) and a Shoe repair shop. People treat their vac like crap and sweep up all kinds of junk. And people wear out a hell of a lot more shoes than salt shakers.  In both of those cases the profit margin was almost embarrassingly high.
Two things kept us going all of those years, frugality and adapting to change. If you want to become fully self employed (at about anything) you need to know that for every business that "takes off" there are a thousand business men just struggling every day to survive. And survive… most don't…
I had a fellow retailer friend that bought out a local shoe store that had been in business for many many years. My friend was smart, reasonably well financed and very well trained including a lot of orthopedic specialty work for which he was well equipped. Things went fine for a while then somebody changed all of the rules on all of us. Stores were dropping like flies. We made a number of changes to our operation and survived. My friend just kept working away working as hard as he could everyday still doing everything like he had been taught until the day the light company pulled the plug on him. The following bankruptcy basically killed him.
Mother nature knows the answer well, "adapt or perish"...
Rule # 1 - Business is not about doing what you want to do. It is all about making money, period. If it isn't, it really isn't a business. If you cannot make a living making solid cherry salt shakers you better dang well be ready to try dressing chickens or turn out the lights and go home.
Rule # 2 - Don't expect to break even the first year. The odds are about 999 to 1 that it won't happen. I hit it surprisingly lucky on my current hobby enterprise with the horses. It hit break-even at 4 months. That is unbelievably rare.
Rule #3. - Don't ask your customers about products you should make and expect a valid answer. We did a lot of survey work once before a venture into the sewing machine business. Lots of talk, no activity. We did manage to break even on them.
Rule # 4. - Control cost like a miser. That includes at home as well. We once shared a center location next to a bakery (actually more of a cake and donut store) that did quite well. They were (are) super nice folks but we watched them spend themselves out of business.
I once had a cousin that tried to build his business by joining about every civic organization in his town and got very active. It brought him very little business and he spent a fortune.
These are not all of the rules and it wouldn't matter if they were since they keep changing.
I had a shop teacher that made a little money off of woodworking but it was not making furniture. He did picture framing and matting.
I guess my main point is that if you want to operate your own business look at it as a business first and realize that unless you are a custom cabinet maker or something like that woodworking is probably not a great choice of businesses. I absolutely love my wood shop and I operated businesses many many years but I never saw woodworking as a good choice even though I had everything i needed.
Yeah, I like to make a buck off of it now and then to pay some of my cost but that is a long ways off from a "living".
Everybody have a great day and keep looking and dreaming.


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## Jered (Sep 15, 2010)

Robinson, interesting post, always looking for info from entrepreneurs.

I think you broke your own rule on recommending custom cabinetmaking. That is my background but when I started my current business, I decided against cabintets precisely because it is not something that gets no respect like you recommend. Too much competition, too many qualified people willing to do the work cheap. Same thing when I looked at doing adirondack chairs/ outdoor furniture.

A lot of good points though. Especially on looking for products that nobody else wants to do. I tbink that makes starting a woodworking business much more realistic than going for the 'glamour' products. Although I think another valid strategy is looking for products that cannot be mass produced economically.


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## Salt (Jan 13, 2011)

Hi All, I read a cheap paper back book as a kid: Fifty Roads To Town. I got from that that there are many ways to achieve your goal(s). For a buncha years I ran a furniture making business. The biggest problem I had was finding good help. . . the second biggest problem was keeping good help. So I hired unskilled newbys that really wanted to learn, and I taught. I didn't give them free knowledge . . . and I didn't charge them for the knowledge. I PAID them good money to learn. Serious people that came to me got what they came for, and they weren't there just for a paycheck. Which explains why I had a problem keeping good help: they wanted their own trials and tribulations, not mine. I actively helped more guys to open their own shops, guided them, taught them a little of the business end as well as woodworking. It was a sort of free consultation business for my EX-employees. My little business was eclipsed by two of my proteges. AND I was doing it for benefits to me: I totally enjoyed watching blooming success, (and one of my guys became one of my best customers!). So, there ya go…you get what you pay for. . . but you can also get paid for what you get. Simple tips: get trade journels, Wood and Wood Products, Custom Woodworking Business, etc, they are gratis. Be supportive of your competitors, make friends with them, help each other, it really works.


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