# Waterbased poly and brush marks....aahhhhhh



## umbach

So I'm finishing a cherry surface. I'm sanding with 220/320 between coats. When the waterbased poly goes on, it looks real nice. Im being carefulto work from wet to wet and using a highh quality brush. After it drys, it shows thick brush marks. Any suggestions how to get these out?


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## Grandpa

Sounds like it is drying before it can flow out flat. Possibly brushing it too much. Are you using a brush for water base finishes? I am just throwing out possibles. I have used water based poly and it worked great for me. I used it in cool or cold weather. It would have dried slowly. How is the temp where you are applying it. It is drying too quickly.


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## canadianchips

I use a foam brush for my poly. I used to get brush marks as well, I think the foam brush puts on thinner coats ( I was never a fan of foam brush till I tried !)


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## ClintSearl

Some brands are better than others. I just finished a furniture project using Varathane waterbased floor finish with no problem. Start with a thin (not thinned) coat that gets smoothed back with 220 drywall screen, then lay down 2 or 3 full wet coats with a good synthetic brush without intermediate sanding.


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## umbach

after a 320 sand









you can see my problem to the right of the glare









here too

Is it possible to buff or polish this finish?


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## umbach

This was trying a thinner coat and thus left more obvious start stop points. If I put it on heavier, I dont get the start/stop marks but the brush ridges are more noticeable. The sanding pic was as aggressive as I dare sand, lest I get to stained wood.


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## wdworking

I see the same thing. I don't try to stretch it out too much. Having said that…...

I will be sanding it with the micro mesh 1200 - 12000. I will be picking this sanding solution up tomorrow and will give it a try. I hope to smooth this very thing out. Woodcraft has it. Will need the pad to use this correctly. There is a Charles Neil video on this link that sold me.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005232/10574/MicroMesh-5-Disk-Assortment-Pack.aspx


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## umbach

Thanks for the tip Craig! I'm going to give that a try. That link to his video was priceless.


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## renners

If I was doing that job, I would consider flatting it all down to p150 and going over it all with a w/b floor lacquer applied with a 9" short pile roller.
You will get it on quickly and evenly and have a finish that is tough enough to withstand spills and stilettos. I think the problem you are having is due to trying to brush such a large area.


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## umbach

That's a good idea too.


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## umbach

I sure hope others are learning something from this cause I sure as heck am. OK. So I have switched to an oil based product. minwax spar semigloss. I have sanded the top very carefully attempting to level it as best I can. Carefully cleaned the top and tried renners suggestion of treating it like a floor and rolling it on. I have used a 6" mohair roller 3/16" nap and as gentle a hand as I have. There is some mild lint fuzz from the roller but at least wet, it looks a lot better. Will see how it levels during the drying process. Here are some more pics.


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## umbach

I used a 180 grit and then a 320 grit. as you can see from the second sanding pic, I was able to level it much better.


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## wdworking

Looks good.

I don't want to use oil base since it will smell up the house. Shop is in basement and next to furnace.

I have the products from Woodcraft and have tried them on a test piece of ply with what looks like open grain and it has the same stain and WB poly on it with the exception only 1 or 2 coats. It's fairly glossy for semi gloss BUT smoother than glass. Looks great. The pads are reusable and that I like. When I get the desktop done, I will upload a pic or two. I have to be careful with the Poplar banding that is around the plywood top. Other than that, it will shine like it never has before. ;-)


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## Havasumatt

Have you ever tried spraying poly? I dread finishing a project. There's to much that can go wrong. I switched from brushes to a hvlp sprayer for poly. Much much quicker! Does make a mess though since your coating inside. Does have its techniques for spraying but I think it still wins over brushing!


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## TheOldTimer

Spraying is the only way to go on large surfaces, I use retarder when applying water base material. It retards drying time especially in warm weather. You can purchase retarder from retailers that sell General finishes and other retailers that sell water base finishes. I purchase mine from Hood Finishing supply a on line retailer. If you use a foam brush or a sinthetic brush to apply the finish, wet the brush prior to using with water. You may also try to thin your finish as suggested above. The retarder will allow the finish to flatten and gives it a longer drying time. I do not use water base finishes here in the desert south west in the summer months, it dries much too fast in our extremly hot inviroment. 
Good luck:


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## umbach

I started out spraying with dismal results. I think the needle was to big as the surface dried spotted. My earlex has a 2.0 needle. Think I'll try a 1.5 on another project. The rolling has done better but still with some roller marks. Hopefully with one more light sanding and rolling on another coat will do the job. This finish has caused more troubles than I've ever had. Of course I've not done one other project of this size.


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## renners

Glad the rolling is working out better, is the roller you're using made for applying gloss finishes?, when laying off the finish, do it all in the same direction - so one continuous roll - back round and start again in the same direction - and only let the weight of the roller keep it in contact with the finish - i.e don't apply pressure.
If it's any consolation, that job would have been a b!tch to spray as well, no matter what your set up.


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## umbach

Yeah. I think the roller is good. It's the rollee that needs help. Thanks again.


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## Sarit

Try using a paint pad like this: Shur-Line 500 Premium Paint Edger
It will lay water based poly a lot more evenly.


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## Lifesaver2000

Unless I missed it, you never mentioned what brand of water-based poly was used in the earlier photos. I ask because I have been using the Sherwin-Williams water based poly, and even though I am absolutely lousy at brushing I have not had any problem with brush marks. The first time I used the stuff I was quite amazed at how smoothly it would look once it was dry, considering my rather poor technique.

On the first project where I used the SW product, I had to brush everything because of weather problems, and their is nary a brush mark to be found. On my more recent project where I only brushed non-visible areas their may be a few marks but only because I was really just slopping it on since it was just there to seal the "off" side of things where it will never be seen.

That said, I do much prefer spraying with the HVLP. My big problem when brushing anything is around edges on things like shelves that have to be finished on all sides. I always seem to get some kind of drip or buildup.


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## umbach

Hey lifesaver. I've been using minwax. But after talking with the guys at my local sherwin Williams I decided to switch to oil based as they feel it will flow out better with the longer drying time. I have to install it tomorrow. Then I'm gonna sand it one more time and put one more coat on and hope for the best. If that still doesn't meet with my satisfaction, I'm gonna use the micro mesh technique that Charles Neil demonstrates on the woodcraft website to "rub out" any remaining flaws. Luckily this is for my childhood best friend and it won't be a problem. Still, it's my work and I want it right.


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## Lifesaver2000

I am definitely in the "whatever works" camp. If you ever do decide to try a water-base poly again some day, I do suggest you try the Sherwin-Williams. I have read a number of posts in various forums of people having trouble with the Minwax product, then switching to the S-W and having much better results. But a lot can depend on weather, shop environment and a whole slew of other factors. That's why it is great there are so many choices. Hope your friend appreciates your hard work.


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## umbach

Well, all turned out ok. The second oil coat with mohair roller worked fine. I'm still gonna go back and try the micromesh process (after learning in my shop first). But my friend said it "exceeded his expectations". That'll work for me. thanks again for everyones help. Here are some final pics.


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## wdworking

Looks good. I tried the buffing system on a test piece and it looks great. Trying it on the larger desktop and my sander is not rotating correctly. I will get it replaced tomorrow. I have not let the w/b semi gloss cure several days, but it still turns to a powder. Washed off the discs a couple times now and they should still be good to go.


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## pintodeluxe

Just a follow up note on spraying…
A $30 gravity feed HVLP gun will spray oil bas poly just fine (Woodriver brand). It comes with a 1.5mm tip. 
thanks for sharing.


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## thehammer

I had problems also, although not quite extreme as yours. This is how I solved that problem.

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-oz-high-volume-low-pressure-gravity-feed-spray-gun-47016.html


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## Loren

You can pad it on too, like shellac.

Considering how cheap and easy to clean foam brushes are
with water based I'd go with those or the padding.


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## umbach

Padding is not a bad idea as the mohair roller ending up leaving roller marks with raking light. 
For those using the inexpensive spray gun; what size compressor is needed to get a decent finish?


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## mingfrommongo

I refinished a table a couple years ago and I just couldn't get it right. After about ten coats or so of oil based polyurethane, I sanded it progressively until I finished with 2000 grit. I bought a $1.69 jar of rubbing compound and voila, I had a deeper, smoother finish than I had ever hoped.


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## jonoseph

I have almost finished hand planing the Douglas Fir hallway . The blocks are set in squares and mainly I wanted them level rather than left as they were 100 years ago . One thing I found was planing the squares diagonally was the best way .Using a variety of planing directions was the other method .The floor varnish was gradually applied each day to avoid dirt being walked into the surface as soon as it had been planed. The trick was to cover that area with a clean rug and then varnish after everyone was in bed , last thing . It was impossible to leave a scratch free surface from the beginning .That can be attended to in a later stage . The water based varnish does not stretch a skin tight surface as it dries . Neither does it fill in the numerous tintack holes near doorways and staircase bottoms. They remain as part of the history of the house. But varnish will not fill them in . The satin finish takes about three layers to get a reasonable surface . Attending to the scratches from all my planes is partly solved with a flap wheel .But one of the most effective tools is a triangular paint scraper given an edge with a coarse diamond plate .The "edge"is almost 90 degrees and needs constant reshaping to keep it working . For the planes I found one of the most useful was a small six inch long wooden coffin plane . No matter how sharp my planes were the best way to level the high blocks was straight across the grain and then changing to 45 degrees . No difference really showed up if you compared the plane blades apart from the old Sheffield blades in the wooden planes . In different situations each plane became the star of the show They all performed well and all became blunt after about 15 minutes . The RB10 with new blades was valuable near the edges being a rebate plane . With a Stanley No 5 I tried a very fine sharpening and a super thin blade slice to shave the top surfaces of the varnish bumps . That worked quite well . I will test the oblong sander plate to compare . If I only sand the varnish it will not clog up with the Douglas Fir resin . That resin sticks to the sole of any plane ,whether steel or wood . The 2 foot wooden planes I used had a Sorby blade and a Brades blade .The Brades stayed sharp longer than the Sorby . When I took it to resharpen , some of the edge could still slice paper .Mainly the water based varnish will not darken over time . It`s easy to repair surface scratches .Odour free varnish removers are a real bonus . I doubt if I will ever need to use that again though . Scratches only matter where the light reflections show them up . Light through the front door windows along the hall is the crucial test . Then areas below the lights . A trickier job than a work surface . I have to allow my wrist and finger joints time to recover now .


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## bilyo

Your're all done now and the project looks great. Good job.
For your next project consider the following:

Taclon brush - You can get them from Amazon or most stores that sell artists supplies. Bristles are fine and dense. Works great for WB finish (and oil based too).

Foam roller - Leaves a much finer texture that levels out better. Use light pressure to avoid ridges left by roller edges.

LVLP spray gun - Low Volume Low Pressure (as compared to HVLP). Works with small compressors, fine soft spray, low overspray. Works great with WB products using 1.3-1.5 needle set.


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## Jimarco

+1 for spraying poly. For me trying to brush/roll poly was a p.i.t.a. because at best there was always a little something somewhere that stood out. There is a wipe on poly but I couldn't see doing a large project with it.

You should be able to get a nice finish with your Earlex using 1.0 or 1.5mm tips. You should have less headaches and time saved.


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## squazo

i use polycrylic from minwax and I apply it undiuted with a rag as though I am doing a french polish. I buff it untill its tacky and then leave it until its dry, which is only about 5 minutes. then I repeat it without sanding between coats. It goes on quite well. It is slow, I would expect a tabletop that size to be about 6 hours of work.


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## BillWhite

FloTrol retarder?


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## CaptainKlutz

Antique thread - But to help others:

IMHO - best WB poly retarder is 2-Butoxyethanol, or commonly called - Butyl cellosolve
Is a very slow evaporating solvent that is compatible with water/alcohol/glycol finishes. WB finish mfg often use small amounts (< 1%) to improve flow out. It is easy to recognize as it has sickly sweet odor. Adding 1-5% drastically improves flow out of WB finishes in low humidity conditions, and makes spraying WB easy even in 100° temperatures.

It is used as food additive, and in cleaning agents. BUT California calls it a hazardous material, with a 25ppm 24 hr exposure limit. Large exposure give most people a horrible headache that takes many hours to dissipate while liver/kidneys remove the solvent from your body that was absorbed thru skin.

Proper PPE is required even for WB finishes, so adding Butyl cellosolve does not change the need to use a respirator in closed spaces. Be safe, not sorry; when using solvents or finishing materials.


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## umbach

Thanks all for the continued tips/ advice!


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## jonoseph

The water based polyurethane dries very thin when using a brush so I used a plastering trowel . It has a plastic sole with thin flexible edges . The surface is much smoother , but leave any doors open when you do this .Draughts under both doors dried the surface too quickly for about 12 inches .It makes the varnish wrinkly and a bit flaky . After sanding and scraping those surface patches the dust would fill a tablespoon. Not a major disaster . The varnish resisted sanding well . It should last a long time


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## LesB

Temperature and humidity have an affect on water based poly. I find that temps between 60 and 70 degrees produce the best results. Below 60 it can end up with any fine "dust" particles that may be in the air trapped in the finish. Above 70 the finish sets up too quickly for it to level out. Obvisously low humidity will also cause the produce to set up befoe it levels out.

Third factor is the thickness of the product. I do thin it out with a little water sometimes. It does not take much so test it. Spraying water base poly has not worked well for me either and instead of brush marks I end up with little round spots; or you spray too much and get runs.

Someone mentioned a retardant for water base poly. That sounds like a workable possibility. I see the General Extender suggests adding 10 to 15%. Floetrol is another but there is some concern that it will cause the poly to yellow over time. It was designed for latex paint originally.


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## CaptainKlutz

> I see the General Extender suggests adding 10 to 15%. Floetrol is another but there is some concern that it will cause the poly to yellow over time. It was designed for latex paint originally. - LesB


GF Extender is Propylene Glycol (PG) and water. 
A portion of the PG is able to react with most clear WB wood finishes and rest evaporates slowly. Used at high levels it will make the film softer, and will change the sheen.
FWIW - For same cost as pint of GF Extender, can buy a quart of PG from Amazoo and make ~3 gallons of extender.

Floetrol is mixture of PG and water, with white color is derived from a anti-microbial compound, Benzisothiazolinone. It is not 100% compatible with modern paint formulations. It is not intended to change viscosity of paint. It only impacts flow out, and wet edge joining.

A better product is XIM Latex Extender, as it does not yellow with age. It will reduce viscosity while improving flow out. Can can cause runs on vertical surfaces, so add sparingly.

Both of these Latex extenders are only recommended for pigmented WB latex/acrylic paints, as use in clear top coat will change clarity/sheen.

Most of the newer Italian made commercial WB polyurethane sell a WB poly extender that is blend of Propylene Glycol, water, and 2-Butoxyethanol; optimized to improve flow out and slow dry time for both 1K and 2K formulations. Here again, you can buy quart of 2-Butoxyethanol, and quart of Propylene Glycol for less than cost of quart of WB poly extender, and DIY over 3 gallons of extender.

Chemistry is FUM!


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## jonoseph

When I brushed the water based varnish on the floor it did not give such a nice finish as the thicker layer with the plastic trowel . The difference is a warm glow from the wood rather than a flatter effect from the brush .In a way the wood surface after the trowel resembles leather .


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## OSU55

+1 on Capn Klutz advice. I hope the oil based over the wb is holding up? Spraying wb finishes is the best way, but does require a really good (more $) cap design for the gun to get proper atomization of wb finishes - solvent finishes can be thinned waaay down if needed, but wb has limits.


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## tdwilli1

> Most of the newer Italian made commercial WB polyurethane sell a WB poly extender that is blend of Propylene Glycol, water, and 2-Butoxyethanol; optimized to improve flow out and slow dry time for both 1K and 2K formulations. Here again, you can buy quart of 2-Butoxyethanol, and quart of Propylene Glycol for less than cost of quart of WB poly extender, and DIY over 3 gallons of extender.
> 
> Chemistry is FUM!
> 
> - CaptainKlutz


So what was the ratio to make that 3 gallons?


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## jonoseph

The last floor area to be varnished continued into the toilet area . The water based varnish was applied by brush after the first planing to keep each part clean. Then the whole area was coated using the plastic trowel . There was never any spiky uneven finish that you get with oil based polyurethane. The surface was just left alone to dry . The final layer was thicker than a brush could apply and the whole job was much shorter . The thicker layer took sometimes over twelve hours to dry. But you only have to do that once . Then just admire the glow in the wood .


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## therealSteveN

> So I m finishing a cherry surface. I m sanding with 220/320 between coats. When the waterbased poly goes on, it looks real nice. Im being carefulto work from wet to wet and using a highh quality brush. After it drys, it shows thick brush marks. Any suggestions how to get these out?
> 
> - umbach


I always just hand apply poly, or poly mixes, oil, or water based with a clean, lint free rag. Spraying also does a fine job, but then you have all that clean up of the spray equipment. Hand applied, just toss the rag in a fire, and you are done. I figure if the soiled applicator of oil based products is a fire hazard, I just cut to the chase, and ignite them outdoors in the fire pit. I've always wondered why the sprayer itself wouldn't also be a fire risk, before cleaning? All I know is I only spray if I have too. With poly/poly mixes you don't have too, and still get wonderful results.


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## CaptainKlutz

> Most of the newer Italian made commercial WB polyurethane sell a WB poly extender that is blend of Propylene Glycol, water, and 2-Butoxyethanol; optimized to improve flow out and slow dry time for both 1K and 2K formulations. Here again, you can buy quart of 2-Butoxyethanol, and quart of Propylene Glycol for less than cost of quart of WB poly extender, and DIY over 3 gallons of extender. - CaptainKlutz
> 
> 
> 
> So what was the ratio to make that 3 gallons? - tdwilli1
Click to expand...

 Lol
Very few folks need 3 gallons of WB retarder:
One gallon of retarder extends between 12-25 gallons of top coat (at 5-10% addition)? Most WB top coats don't recommend more than 5-7% thinner/retarder. Quarts of PG/Glycol Ether will last most hobbyist many years.

Retarder blend depends on brand of WB finish?

GF Enduro Poly uses 3:1:5% of waterG:2Glycol ether

Milesi has several different WB retarders. Fast - 4:1 waterG, Slow - 1:3 waterG, 100% Glycol ether, and 4:1:5% waterG:Glycol ether blend.

Can't find my Renner retarder SDS, believe it was similar waterG:2-Butoxyethanol mixture with much less PG and more glycol ether. Also has a biocide to prevent mold growth.

Environlak WB Poly retarder is 100% of slightly different glycol ether (Diethylene glycol monobutyl ether) which is not rated as 'green' as 2-Butoxyethanol, and evaporates slower.

Target WB Finishes use a generic spray retarder, that is 1:1 of wateripropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether blend, again a slightly different glycol ether solvent.

Additional reference: Water has relative evaporation rate of 0.3 (using butyl acetate as 1.0). 2-Butoxyethanol evaporation rate is ~0.06, Dipropylene glycol monomethyl ether evaporation rate is ~0.03, and Diethylene glycol monobutyl ether evaporation rate is ~ 0.02. As you can see most of the glycol ether's have similar evaporation rate, and are usually interchangeable when used at low levels. Can use any of these glycol ether's found locally, with 2-Butoxyethanol or Butyl Cellusolve being sold on Amadud. I can get gallons of 2-Butoxyethanol as Dow EB for ~$40 locally. If you need to compare evaporation rates of other solvents, suggest the Producers Chemical PC Solvent Chart PDF

Please note that each finish, ambient weather conditions, and project; dictate different retarder needs. A single part acrylic poly is usually happy with PG & water, but 100% solvent works too. A 2 part system prefers a solvent blend that evaporates before the film cures, with zero PG to avoid blush if humidity and temp is high. When spraying a vertical project, adding to much thinner/retarder creates sag or runs (as WB coatings have thicker wet film build than solvent). A vertical project would need a mid-rate evaporation solvent that dissipates shortly after spraying, and and slower solvent to aid flow out. A sprayed flat project could use most any retarder blend.

The key to all of this is chemistry is learning your finish material, learning how weather changes film behavior, and making adjustments as needed.


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