# Veritas Bench Plane or Veritas Custom #4 Smoothing Plane



## RyanIra (Jan 9, 2012)

In the market for a premium smoothing plane.
Pretty much set on Veritas.
Which bevel down smoother would you get? The original one or their new line of Custom bench planes?

I have the Veritas LA Jack right now. Love it. Would I be better off to buy the LA Smoother instead? What am I giving up if I do so?

Thanks


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

I have the L.A. smoother, wish I'd gone with the L.A.Jack, you do not need both? Look at a H.A. #4, the Plane I use more than the smoother. Mine is 55 degrees with a large tote.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

I have the low angle smoother from Veritas. It's pretty awesome. LN has some very nice planes of which I have a few, but this one is better on most if not all accounts. I haven't tried the custom planes but would think they are every bit as good.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Can't go wrong with LN or Veritas, but some are hard to get nowadays


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

For bevel down, custom over the std Veritas, 4-1/2 size. For BU, the large BU smoother, it takes the same iron as the LA jack, so you can have irons at different angles for both planes, depending on the need. Get the PM-V11 iron whatever plane you buy.

BU vs BD - no loser here. If you really like the LA jack the BU probably makes sense so you have more irons which are interchangeable. I have the LA jack, BU smoother, and BU jointer, with 6 irons - 2 each at 25, 38, and 50 deg.


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## RyanIra (Jan 9, 2012)

> For bevel down, custom over the std Veritas, 4-1/2 size. For BU, the large BU smoother, it takes the same iron as the LA jack, so you can have irons at different angles for both planes, depending on the need. Get the PM-V11 iron whatever plane you buy.
> 
> BU vs BD - no loser here. If you really like the LA jack the BU probably makes sense so you have more irons which are interchangeable. I have the LA jack, BU smoother, and BU jointer, with 6 irons - 2 each at 25, 38, and 50 deg.
> 
> - OSU55


That sounds like good advice. For smoothing, how much difference is there between using the dedicated smoother versus the LA Jack?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If the Veritas custom plane leaves a gap on the sole for the toe plate adjustment I would not buy it. The gap will clog with shavings. It's a better design to have the front of the movable shoe protrude from the front of the plane imo. Why they avoid showing the bottoms of the planes to demonstrate the fancy feature beats me.

The reason I know this is the original iteration of the LN low angle jointer had this feature, which they later ditched.

Low angle planes are kind of meh for me, even though I have a couple. I guess if you want to avoid collecting planes they serve a purpose of letting one adjust the angle of the cutter but I find the irons awkward to sharpen with an appropriate camber. Dubbing off the corners works but I like a cambered traditional plane better for smoothing.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> That sounds like good advice. For smoothing, how much difference is there between using the dedicated smoother versus the LA Jack?
> 
> - Randy Woodworker


Significant difference, but not surface finish etc - the irons cut the same. The length makes the difference. Planes are different lengths for a reason, and a smoother should be in the ~8-10" range. Shorter and smaller for small surfaces. Smoothers are only removing ~0.001" per pass. Not meant to change dimensions or flatten, but smooth the surface. Planes replace sandpaper except for a final swipe with 220-320 to even the surace texture for finish, if desired. The jack makes it flat, but is too long to work problem areas. The jack is too long and heavy.

As to BU blade camber - I use very little, only a few thou. The BU planes are not for rough work. I use Stanley Bailey planes for that. The LA jack is much better for the finer end of "jack" work, flattening glue ups, a short jointer, great on a shooting board, cleaning up machine marks. A #5 is much better for dimensioning lumber, a task I use power tools for. A smoother only needs a couple thou camber, created by finger pressure when honing, BU or BD.


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

> In the market for a premium smoothing plane.
> Pretty much set on Veritas.
> Which bevel down smoother would you get? The original one or their new line of Custom bench planes?
> 
> ...


Randy, I wrote a lengthy, very detailed review of the Custom planes here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

The Veritas LA Smoother is an excellent plane. The larger, BU is a better dedicated smoother than the LAS.

The BU smoothers are excellent and very reliable. The BD Custom #4 is ultimately better, but only if you are planing complex grain and know how to use it. It is all in my review/article.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Thorbjorn88 (Jan 4, 2018)

I got the Bevel Up Smoother last year and really love it. I chose it over the bevel down options because I think it's not too hard to get a vintage no 4 working well enough for 80% of my work but the bevel up plane works for fine smoothing and can be fit with a high angle blade for really tricky wood. If you already have the LA jack I would go that way. I have three blades between my BU smoother and LA jack so I can choose between 25, 38, and 50 for any task. I'm also thinking of selling my no 7 and replacing it with the bevel up jointer.

If you haven't be sure to check out Derek's sharpening guides to bevel up blades those have really helped me get the most out of these planes.


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## Kirk650 (May 8, 2016)

I have a LN #4 smoother, an old Stanley 4 1/2, and a Veritas BU #4. I always reach for the Veritas first.


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## Vuddha29 (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm not an experienced woodworker, but i am familiar with planes.

I just got a Veritas Custom No.7 and to be honest I really dislike the "blade carrier". The carrier itself seems to interfere with the Lever Cap so I'm unable to use it as a single-iron plane.

But mainly, i find it really annoying. The tiny screws are asking to be lost and I just don't see the advantage over a typical cap iron.

All of my existing planes are Veritas and i was really wanting to like the Custom line because i wanted to get more bevel down planes due to the different geometry (the ease of cambering the iron).

I actually bought a Custom No.4 at the same time.

I've decided to return both of them (never even opened the Custom No. 4).

I ended up getting a set of fully-tuned and restored Stanleys on EBay instead. I hope they work well.

My advice to the OP is get Veritas's normal no.4 bench plane.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I have a normal No 4 and it works great. It keeps pace with my restored Stanley No 8. I decided against the custom for a few key reasons. The custom line has a lot of bells and whistles, but the normal line does really well. For example, the Norris rod on a normal No 4 is twice the length of the rod on a custom, and in my experience the longer the rod, the easier it is to get the lateral just right (a shorter rod will equate to less distance traveled for the same adjustment and I find the longer rod provides a finer adjustment as the sweep is larger).

Also, those short blades on the custom line, I just don't get it. I also don't like the position of the adjuster (regardless of how long the rod is) on the customs.

Many times I have thought it would be great to have the slow adjuster, but the normal bench plane does fine.


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## Vuddha29 (Apr 3, 2021)

> I have a normal No 4 and it works great. It keeps pace with my restored Stanley No 8. I decided against the custom for a few key reasons. The custom line has a lot of bells and whistles, but the normal line does really well. For example, the Norris rod on a normal No 4 is twice the length of the rod on a custom, and in my experience the longer the rod, the easier it is to get the lateral just right (a shorter rod will equate to less distance traveled for the same adjustment and I find the longer rod provides a finer adjustment as the sweep is larger).
> 
> Also, those short blades on the custom line, I just don t get it. I also don t like the position of the adjuster (regardless of how long the rod is) on the customs.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I totally agree Devin. I don't like the short blade either and you make a really good point about the lateral adjustment lever.

I have the Veritas Fore Plane and honestly everything about their "normal" plane is better. The longer blade is easier to sharpen in a jig or freehand; the tote has an arch connecting it to the frog, so it's way more comfortable to hold. The sides are wide. The cap iron and lever cap are simple, reliable and parsimonious.

The thing that boggles my mind is why Veritas doesn't make the "normal" line in more "common" sizes (no.5 and no.7).

I really don't see any practical advantage of the Custom line except the ease of opening the mouth, and that's really a minor thing anyway.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I like the way they made it easy to adjust the frog on the normal planes. No need to remove anything. Stick a long screw driver through the lever cap, loosen one screw, loosen a thumb screw under the tote, and adjust the frog forward and back with another thumb screw. It's a very good design.


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## Vuddha29 (Apr 3, 2021)

> I like the way they made it easy to adjust the frog on the normal planes. No need to remove anything. Stick a long screw driver through the lever cap, loosen one screw, loosen a thumb screw under the tote, and adjust the frog forward and back with another thumb screw. It's a very good design.
> 
> - DevinT


Are you referring to the Bailey design? I didn't realize that's how the frog could be adjusted. Thanks for describing it. I haven't had a chance to use one in-depth yet, just a cursory assembly of the cutter and lever cap.

It's interesting because the first time i picked up a Bailey-style plane i much preferred the feel and the depth adjustment. I never really liked the Norris style planes but didn't realize how much more natural the Bailey mechanism feels.

That's what prompted me to just get a bunch of vintage Stanleys and a Lie Nielsen (still waiting for them to arrive). I'm sure I'll like using them more (despite the Lie Nielsen bedrock design).


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

Most common complaint about Norris is supposed inability to adjust it while in motion.

Poppycock.

Wax up, site the blade down the sole, retract it, set the plane on the wood, grab the front knob with your left (or right) hand, and drag the plane back and forth by its knob while you adjust the depth with your other hand. The moment you feel it catch, stop. Pull back for your first stroke. Draw pencil lines. Start planing. Watch where shaving exits. Adjust lateral if necessary. Make overlapping passes over entire board. Adjust depth if necessary. Repeat until flat and/or smooth.

I find that using the front knob in the beginning with a waxed sole allows me to feel the slightest catch and I notice that I can sneak up on the cut much better. When I use a Stanley, I invariably end up descending deeper than I want which then leads to dealing with backlash - which is why I place so much emphasis on detecting "first contact" as having to wind back and feel for when the wheel engages is not repeatably accurate and I might end up having to do that 2 or 3 times on a Stanley until I get lateral and depth just right.

On the Veritas, I tend to hit my preferred initial lateral and depth spot on the first try - albeit, I've had practice with the Veritas (not to say I haven't experience with Stanley's, but my Stanley Bailey is a No 8 and working a No 8 is markedly different than working a No 4)


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## Vuddha29 (Apr 3, 2021)

> Wax up, site the blade down the sole, retract it, set the plane on the wood, grab the front knob with your left (or right) hand, and drag the plane back and forth by its knob while you adjust the depth with your other hand. The moment you feel it catch, stop. Pull back for your first stroke. Draw pencil lines. Start planing. Watch where shaving exits. Adjust lateral if necessary. Make overlapping passes over entire board. Adjust depth if necessary. Repeat until flat and/or smooth.
> 
> I find that using the front knob in the beginning with a waxed sole allows me to feel the slightest catch and I notice that I can sneak up on the cut much better. When I use a Stanley, I invariably end up descending deeper than I want which then leads to dealing with backlash - which is why I place so much emphasis on detecting "first contact" as having to wind back and feel for when the wheel engages is not repeatably accurate and I might end up having to do that 2 or 3 times on a Stanley until I get lateral and depth just right.
> 
> - DevinT


Thanks for sharing this technique. That's an interesting way of doing it. I'll have to try it out.

I was looking at my Veritas no.6 Fore Plane and noticed the frog adjustment you referred to earlier. Very elegant indeed! I never adjust its frog so never noticed the screw access through the lever cap.

I suppose the takeaway here is the "normal" Veritas bevel down bench planes are excellent in every way!


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

The biggest advantage of the custom line is iron/ frog angle. Can have several frogs for one plane to customize it to the job. I think the range is 40-55 deg, Or any custom angle you want. LN has 45 or 55 deg frogs. Having one for hi angle smoothing of twisting grain, in a BD configuration, is the big advantage. Whether its useful to you is another thing.


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

> The biggest advantage of the custom line is iron/ frog angle. Can have several frogs for one plane to customize it to the job. I think the range is 40-55 deg, Or any custom angle you want. LN has 45 or 55 deg frogs. Having one for hi angle smoothing of twisting grain, in a BD configuration, is the big advantage. Whether its useful to you is another thing.
> 
> - OSU55


Not really. The PM-V11 steel is excellent and probably the best available on the market. And high angle frogs will create high cutting angles to tame interlocked grain. But the best feature of these planes (and they are not alone here) is the ability to set a closed up chipbreaker, which both defeats tearout and allows the plane to more more freely. Please read my earlier post. I have used all the Veritas planes longer than anyone, having tested all pre-production.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'll echo what Derek is saying. Low angle, BU planes are certainly useful and excel at what they do well. But for a true smoother, I prefer a BD plane so that I can set the chipbreaker tight to the cutting edge. Bailey adjuster or norris adjuster aren't a major consideration for me. I think they both work well, just different. All of my planes, other than my Veritas LAJ, are BD Bailey patterns.

I've done extensive experimenting with edge geometries, chipbreaker geometries, chipbreaker placement, and frog position/mouth opening. And I've come to the conclusion that ultimately the chipbreaker position with reference to the cutting edge and having a proper fit between the chipbreaker and iron with a polished edge on the front of the chipbreaker is what makes the biggest difference with respect to the function and results of a smoother. So much so in fact that now I set all my frogs so the blade bed is coplanar with the ramp in the throat and I sharpen all of my irons with a single 25 degree bevel. I just take time to make sure there is no gap between the chipbreaker edge and the back of the iron and that the chipbreaker is set tightly to the cutting edge. The other variables don't have enough effect for me to spend time tuning them.

All of the above is my opinion of course. YMMV and I'm sure there are contrary opinions out there that are no less valid than my own. These are just my conclusions based on several years of rehabbing vintage planes and comparing results to come to my own methods and setups.

Also note that all of my observations are based on vintage BD planes with vintage irons and chipbreakers. I can't speak firsthand to any modern BD planes since I don't own any. I will say that the Veritas LAJ is an exceptional plane for endgrain work and for face/edge work if the grain is straight and clear. And that plane has made me a firm believer in the PM-V11 steel. I will most likely upgrade the irons in most of my vintage planes to those irons because the edge retention is vastly superior.

Finally, on the subject of smoothers, if one works much with figured woods, a higher-pitched approach yields notably better results than a standard 45 degree BD plane. This can be accomplished with a BD plane with a 50 or 55 degree frog, or with a BU plane with a steeper bevel. The difference between the two approaches, in my estimation, is that with the higher pitched frog and a BD plane, you control the shavings (and therefore the tearout and ultimately the surface finish) with a chipbreaker. With a BU plane with a steeper bevel (30 or 35 degrees for a 50 or 55 degree attack angle) you control the shaving by adjusting the mouth opening. For me, the BD plane is a better approach. But I am positive that there are others who can obtain a better result with a BU plane.

I guess my point is there are many ways to skin a cat. Just decide which cat you need to skin, pick a tool, and skin it the best you can ;-) In any case, it'll require a few cats to practice on before you get it the way you want it.


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## DevinT (Mar 25, 2021)

I don't have any high angle frogs. My only LA plane is a Veritas apron plane.

My opinions are …

I can plane Cocobolo without tear out with a 45 degree frog BD Veritas No 4 smoother just fine, so long as I sharpen the blade enough that it can shave the hairs off a gnat's ass.

There are varying degrees of "can it shave arm hair" and if it takes you multiple strokes to make a bald spot, that's not razor sharp. Razor sharp would make a bald spot in one or two strokes against the arm.

I take a blade like that to the wood and it doesn't much matter what the wood is or what the frog angle is.

I will add a +1 to a vote for PM-V11. Modern miracle! I put a razor sharp edge on it, go plane a hunk of Cocobolo, and it is still razor sharp afterward.

For me, getting sharp (I mean "truly" razor sharp) was the "aha" moment.

Fewer strokes, less time, lower effort, zero tear out, and with PM-V11, long lasting results.

Only use two stones, a lot of Windex, and an eclipse jig.

My one LA plane?

Sure, it slices well. Tackles end grain well. Handles figures, cathedrals, rip grains, and sundry all well.

But it is far too small to really be useful in a comparison to BD and what I know I can achieve with ease with a razor sharp edge.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

> The biggest advantage of the custom line is iron/ frog angle. Can have several frogs for one plane to customize it to the job. I think the range is 40-55 deg, Or any custom angle you want. LN has 45 or 55 deg frogs. Having one for hi angle smoothing of twisting grain, in a BD configuration, is the big advantage. Whether its useful to you is another thing.
> 
> - OSU55
> 
> ...


So the best feature is setting a close chipbreaker (which you also state other planes have this capability)? I'm not debating the value of setting a close CB, or the value of PM-V11 steel. I can set the oem CB on my vintage Stanleys very close, as well as with the Lee Valley iron/breaker sets for vintage Stanleys I have. The Veritas standard bench plane can have the CB set very close. I cannot increase frog angle, however. Nor can I drop frog angle to 40° without a CB for end grain. I have to differ with your opinion, no matter how long you have used the planes.


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