# Lights: going from fluorescents to LED bulbs



## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

This is an viable and cost effective solution to lighting in the shop. For me it was a fix.










Over the past ten years I've had ballasts go bad in one then two more of my fluorescent lights. Ballasts are expensive. My alternative was to order a bunch of porcelain screw in light sockets on Amazon (about $3 each, with pigtails). And I found some 100 watt LED light bulbs. I was going to put in four of them in each fixture when I thought all I'd be able to get was 60 watt ones but I came across 100's in Walmart. Here in Maine they are subsidized by a program called 'Energy Maine. About a dollar each. (60 watters are $1.97 for a four pack. Good deal).
.
The sockets have a forked metal mounting bracket that I bent down slightly and screwed to the fixture.










Total cost of each fixture to rig it for 300 watts about $12. Their actual energy drain equivalent is 42 watts. The lights are bright white not soft white so they're as bright or brighter than the four 4 foot fluorescent tubes they replaced.









And, they'll probably outlast me. I may never have to deal with them again.

Another note: The fixtures are four foot hung ceiling recessed fixtures. They're not expensive and all of mine come free off craigslist. I see them often as sometimes they are removed from stores and either sold online or given away. My score, way back when, was fifteen of them. I've taken some 3/4" plywood and framed them after mounting them to the ceiling.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

That is what keeps me interested in this web site. Someone always has a better or unique idea.

I have converted 4' fluorescent light fixtures to LEDs using the 120v direct wire LED tube lights which sell for about $8 each and it works great. The direct wire LED tubes eliminate the need for a ballast. Your idea is a much less expensive way to accomplish the same thing.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

You may want to check on the price of some LED shop lights. They can throw out a lot of light and it is easy to add more. Sams club has some that are cheap and probably have more output than your old lights. At my office I get an instant rebate from the power company to replace 2X4 with LED. Without the labor which we have in house it gets real close to what new bulbs cost and lowers the electric bill.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> That is what keeps me interested in this web site. Someone always has a better or unique idea.
> 
> I have converted 4 fluorescent light fixtures to LEDs using the 120v direct wire LED tube lights which sell for about $8 each and it works great. The direct wire LED tubes eliminate the need for a ballast. Your idea is a much less expensive way to accomplish the same thing.
> 
> - LesB


I considered this solution then thought of this one and made the decision. It is a good possible solution though.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> You may want to check on the price of some LED shop lights. They can throw out a lot of light and it is easy to add more. Sams club has some that are cheap and probably have more output than your old lights. At my office I get an instant rebate from the power company to replace 2X4 with LED. Without the labor which we have in house it gets real close to what new bulbs cost and lowers the electric bill.
> 
> - controlfreak


Not bad, about $30 each and they put out a bit of light, about 5000 lumens. The ones I put it in are about 4800 lumens so either solution is plenty light. Like I said I was going to put in four sockets but I tried three and it was plenty light. I decided on upgrading these fixtures instead of new ones because they were already on the ceiling. I only had to do 3 fixtures but I've got 6 in the shop. As the last three die I'll make the same upgrade.

I love going into the shop, especially in winter and turning the lights on and it seems like daylight in the place. It makes you feel like getting to it.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> That is what keeps me interested in this web site. Someone always has a better or unique idea.
> 
> I have converted 4 fluorescent light fixtures to LEDs using the 120v direct wire LED tube lights which sell for about $8 each and it works great. The direct wire LED tubes eliminate the need for a ballast. Your idea is a much less expensive way to accomplish the same thing.
> 
> - LesB


this is what i did,bought the tubes in bulk packs at lowes took out the old bulb's put in the new ones,done! ive got 34 tubes that use the energy of about 16 old ones and are brighter.i actually took out 8 and it's still brighter.


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## northwoodsman (Feb 22, 2008)

I found 4' LED bulbs at Costco that replace the fluorescent tubes. I replaced all my shop lights in 10 minutes. Not all LED bulbs will work in all fixtures.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I found 4 LED bulbs at Costco that replace the fluorescent tubes. I replaced all my shop lights in 10 minutes. Not all LED bulbs will work in all fixtures.
> 
> - northwoodsman


They must still go through the original ballasts though right?


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## Sark (May 31, 2017)

I replaced 12 T-12 fluorescent tubes with all LED replacements that work off the same ballast. From HD. Wow was the shop brighter. Unfortunately, these crummy bulbs are constantly going off and on. Almost never get all 12 on at the same time. And if I do, within 5 minutes, they start winking off. The maybe some will come on later. What a waste of money.

I use to think that the bulbs were turning off because getting too hot with the heat of Summer. But it appears that its just a defective design…or bad batch. The lights will go off when its cold or hot. Maybe faster when it's hot. Sometimes they'll come back on after a while. Bad batch or bad design? I don't know. Will replace with LED fixtures once I get some time.

The T-8 fixture replacement bulbs have worked perfectly.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I'm finding LED is a win win/ I had low cost T * fixtures that were blinking out at a rate of 1 per month in both the house, and the shop. I needed to replace them with something, so instead of going deeper into the T8 pit of despair I am buying LED's. So far I have never paid more than 15 bux a fixture for 5000's. I have been catching them at Menards on sale, and also with an 11% week. Generally I buy ahead several lights, so I can swap them as soon as I see a problem.

I just wrote in another thread you used to get at least 3 to 5 changes of bulbs from the lights, now they usually go bad before the bulb needs swapped. Electric lighting is junk. I fell for the pay more, and get better quality light thing some time back, and my experience is buy cheap, replace as needed for the lowest cost to use.

I'm enjoying better light, and I'm finding if you have enough of them, and use them often enough, you can see a huge difference on the electric bill. Truly a case of economy of scale.


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## 4wood (Jul 12, 2018)

I have several of the 4' LED's from Costco. They come on sale fairly often for $18. On one that I bought had a tube go out, but the other still works. I thought I could just change the tube, but it is not possible to change a tube, you must buy a whole new fixture. You will only need to change a couple bulbs which is much cheaper. I think your idea is very good.


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## accord (Sep 15, 2019)

I've been wanting to change the fluorescent lights in my shop/garage for years…not sure how good they are but harbor frieght has LED on sale this weekend (parking lot sale) for 19.99 , just might try a few anyone use the HF lights ? I was told LEDS come on nice even in the cold weather . that's my big problem as I am in the garage almost daily doing something but have to wait till the heat builds up in order for the floro lights to work


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I ve been wanting to change the fluorescent lights in my shop/garage for years…not sure how good they are but harbor frieght has LED on sale this weekend (parking lot sale) for 19.99 , just might try a few anyone use the HF lights ? I was told LEDS come on nice even in the cold weather . that s my big problem as I am in the garage almost daily doing something but have to wait till the heat builds up in order for the floro lights to work
> 
> - accord


These look like good lights. Bruan makes some fairly good quality stove hoods and looking at videos this light looks well made and is as bright or brighter than a couple of fluorescent tubes. At the sale price I think they'd be worth it. And yes LED's are instant in cold weather…Maine here.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

I wouldn't assume they will outlast you. Though the packages claim they last "up to" 500 million hours or whatever ridiculous number, i find I still have to replace led bulbs every year or two.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> I found 4 LED bulbs at Costco that replace the fluorescent tubes. I replaced all my shop lights in 10 minutes. Not all LED bulbs will work in all fixtures.
> 
> - northwoodsman
> 
> ...


Many of the 4' LED tubes can be "drop in" (use the ballasts) or wired directly (ballast removed/bypassed).

Good call on checking with your local electric co. on rebates. Many/most will rebate for energy efficient devices/appliances but don't advertise this very well. My utility will rebate 50% of the cost of the fixture/bulbs.

The only concern I see with what you did is the Edison style bulbs have issues with heat from their power supplies hidden in the bases of the bulbs. This heat tends to shorten their life, but you now have a light that uses bulbs available in almost every store and are cheaper than ever.

Great upgrade!


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> I wouldn't assume they will outlast you. Though the packages claim they last "up to" 500 million hours or whatever ridiculous number, i find I still have to replace led bulbs every year or two.
> 
> - SMP


I dunno… I replaced all bulbs in the house about six years ago. I've never had to replace any of them so far. Hoping the 22,000 hours on the box is at least close. If figure the lack of heat might be the reason they last so long.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Come to think of it I remember a youtube video years ago where it showed someone converting existing fixtures to LED. They remove and bypassed the ballast. Removed the lamp sockets and connected the wire to 4' LED strips that were attached to the fixture. That was back when the new fixtures were very expensive. I think the only way this would be cheaper now is if you are using your labor to convert. For the purists out there you are also technically voiding the UL listing of the fixture so if there were to be a fire it wouldn't go well for a company that did the conversion as a paid service.

For a regular person to call someone to convert to LED it is quicker replace the fixture. Some side benefits to the new fixtures are: thinner fixture, more even light output, can lay insulation over top, no air leakage, cooler and my favorite no more insects and dust finding their way into the fixture and becoming a display on the lens.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Using led lamps that use the ballast is a waste of money. The ballast itself consumes power, ( that is why it is hot) and is another part to fail. Then you have purchased new lamps and will need a new ballast to run the lamps. 120 volt wire in led tubes are better. New fixtures are best if you can swing it.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

I replaced my shop lights from bulb fixtures to LED fixtures. What a big difference.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I agree with an above response. Leaving the ballasts in to run LED lights uses more power and the ballasts will go after awhile. They just don't last that long. Then they're about $15 each. Some lights have two of them. If you've already got LED lights installed and they're not super thin then the screw in bulbs are an option or the ready to install LED tubes. Thing is you've also got to put in new clip ends on them.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> I agree with an above response. Leaving the ballasts in to run LED lights uses more power and the ballasts will go after awhile. They just don t last that long. Then they re about $15 each. Some lights have two of them. If you ve already got LED lights installed and they re not super thin then the screw in bulbs are an option or the ready to install LED tubes. Thing is you ve also got to put in new clip ends on them.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


Thanks for your thread. I have 8' fluorescent tubes in my shop and LED tubes that long are real expensive. I will use your idea of using screw-in LED bulbs.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

There appears to be some misunderstanding about fluorescent to LED conversions on *existing* fixtures.
There are two types:

One just replaces the fluorescent tubes with LED Tubes and the ballast is still there and operating….they will use a bit more power because of the ballast, get hot, and the ballast can still burn out and leak that gooey black stuff.

The second type of LED operate on 120v direct wiring and are referred to as "bypass" type which eliminate the ballast so the it can be removed from the fixture and the 120v wires are connected directly to the sockets or tombstones as they are called. Some LED tubes need connection at each ends (one black hot, one white neutral, green ground to the metal fixture) and some are only wired at just one end (check for that). So you may need to change out the tombstones, easy and inexpensive. Some suppliers provide new tombstones with their tubes.

Another point I have made before is that LED tubes emit RF signals (radio frequency) that can cause interference with radio reception on AM and FM radios. I like to listen to the radio in my shop but the 8' LED conversion tubes I installed there created too much RF so I took them out. The 4' conversion tubes I put in my garage only caused a slight static on the radio from their RF signal. Part of my particular problem is I'm in a rural area with weak radio signals already so it does not take much to interfere with the radio signal. Those with strong radio signals may not notice the RF interference.


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

> Thanks for your thread. I have 8 fluorescent tubes in my shop and LED tubes that long are real expensive. I will use your idea of using screw-in LED bulbs.
> - MrRon


I also had 8' fluorescent fixtures in my shop and faced the same issue with high cost and limited selection of 8' LEDs. I bought conversion kits and changed the fixtures from 2 8' tubes to 6 4' LEDs each. Much brighter, lower cost and lots of options for CRI and color temperature.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

So, looks like two or three ways of doing this. I'm sure everyone will choose the one that best fits your needs considering what you need and what you've got to work with.

One last note: I love LED's. They seem bright and their long term cost effectiveness is the way to go for me. Funny, it wasn't that long ago that everyone was buying up incandescent bulbs because they feared everyone was having go to those curly fluorescent ones that you can still get. I hated those too. Never bright enough, still burned out, hard to use dimmers on, etc. etc. 
LED's let us keep our screw in bulbs (or tubes) and have bright light and longevity of bulbs at a great energy savings.

I also love the recessed lights in the house. They're smaller now and cool. No big cans in the ceiling that you have to worry about heating up. My house, when I renovated it now has all LED's. Recessed, small floods in track lighting, regular bulbs. 1000 watts for about the price of 100 watts in energy use. Love 'em. great invention.

The only one that isn't is the big flood light outside high on the tree… some day though…..


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Look at the site:. Super Bright LEDs .com. They sell left kits that are magnetic strips of LEDs, wire and driver. Remove old ballast. Can use two sets of 4' replacements for 8' fixtures. So far, they work well. You can buy two strip, three strip ect for more or less light.


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## Sylvain (Jul 23, 2011)

22 000 h is about 2.5 year (continuous use)

The old incandescent bulbs were supposed to last 1 000 h and were much more power hungry and dissipating more heat for the same lighting. Giving about 14.5 lumen/W for tungsten 60 W bulbs.

The last led bulb I bought are rated 100 lumen/W.

If you are using rotating machines, verify they are not flickering because the stroboscopic effect might be dangerous.


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## Peteybadboy (Jan 23, 2013)

This is a great discussion, I will look into converting mine.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> 22 000 h is about 2.5 year (continuous use)
> 
> The old incandescent bulbs were supposed to last 1 000 h and were much more power hungry and dissipating more heat for the same lighting. Giving about 14.5 lumen/W for tungsten 60 W bulbs.
> 
> ...


Another way of looking at it… If I the bulbs do last 22,000 hours and I work in the shop 90 hours a month, that's 3 hours every single day year round, which I don't do, they would last 20 years. I don't know about everyone else, but I work in spurts. I might put in 5 hours a day for a week, then not use the shop much at all for two or three weeks at a time.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry to say this, but the led conversion in the picture that started this looks like a hack electrical job, an accident or fire waiting to happen. I don't see a ground wire to the fixture, I don't see a listed connector where the wire enters the fixture, just a hole with sharp edges. If anyone wants to do this conversion, do it safely.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

This reminds me of the picture from a while back of the person who swapped out the incandescents in their incubator for LEDs to save energy….


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> 22 000 h is about 2.5 year (continuous use)
> 
> The old incandescent bulbs were supposed to last 1 000 h and were much more power hungry and dissipating more heat for the same lighting. Giving about 14.5 lumen/W for tungsten 60 W bulbs.
> 
> ...


I don't know anyone that turns them on once and leaves them on for the duration though. Its the on-off cycles that gets them. Mean time to failure or whatever that statistic is for on off cycles.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Sorry to say this, but the led conversion in the picture that started this looks like a hack electrical job, an accident or fire waiting to happen. I don t see a ground wire to the fixture, I don t see a listed connector where the wire enters the fixture, just a hole with sharp edges. If anyone wants to do this conversion, do it safely.
> 
> - ibewjon


OUCH… but you're right. The wire comes through the sheetrock through a square hole that was the original square box opening in the fixture from where the lights came from. No metal is being touched by the unsheethed wire. But it's my shop and I decided that it would be okay.
No ground wires for this older 70's wiring for lights. Notice also that the new light sockets don't have a ground. Yes the metal box would be grounded if there was a ground wire but I don't think it will be a problem. I don't expect to be reaching up and touching the lights and stepping in puddles. It's good for me. I'll bet a lot of you doing your own wiring have these "it will be fine" instances.

I've wired three houses in my lifetime, then had them inspected by an electrician for legality reasons. I know what's kosher here. You're right but it's okay.

Have you noticed that your table lamp… even if metal only has two prongs to the plug. No ground wire?

Your Electrical hack comment set me back a bit.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I wouldn't assume they will outlast you. Though the packages claim they last "up to" 500 million hours or whatever ridiculous number, i find I still have to replace led bulbs every year or two.
> 
> - SMP


My electrician friend tells me those tests are switch the light on, and walk away. For us mere mortals who use light as needed, it's the on, and off cycyles that kick them to the curb before their stated time.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> I agree with an above response. Leaving the ballasts in to run LED lights uses more power and the ballasts will go after awhile. They just don t last that long. Then they re about $15 each. Some lights have two of them. If you ve already got LED lights installed and they re not super thin then the screw in bulbs are an option or the ready to install LED tubes. Thing is you ve also got to put in new clip ends on them.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


Plus many of the lower end T8 and T12 lights didn't have a ballast that would work on the retrofits. Instead they had a simple circuit card type unit that did the work. Those are useless for retrofit.

Just saying that in case someone thinks, hmmm these LED bulbs cost less than the entire light, and find their ballast isn't workable. too late. Check the lights first if you plan to do this. Though I agree swapping the entire light fixture will likely work best, most often.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

Yet another reason to go with LEDs is that fluorescent lights (including CFCs) work best when left on for long periods. They fail faster when switched on and off frequently and use the most power when they first start up. I changed the fluorescent lights in our laundry room to LEDs primarily because my wife was either leaving the lights on all day whether she was in the room or not or frequently turning them on and off for short periods which burned them out quickly.

As far as I know LEDs are not affected by being turned on and off frequently.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

Every time I search the internet for LED lighting I find some thing new. Here is an LED "Garage" light that puts out 6000 lumen at 6000k and is only $32. Has 3 directional light panels and fits a standard light bulb fixture. There are also lots of similar fixtures in the price range.

https://www.amazon.com/Deformable-Ceiling-Adjustable-Lighting-Activated/dp/B07MRDXQC7/ref=sr_1_24?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqLmsrZqX5QIVcRh9Ch0MmgbGEAAYAyAAEgKm-_D_BwE&hvadid=174278178912&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033106&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t3&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14202651117317387142&hvtargid=kwd-1803467787&hydadcr=8435_9618948&keywords=light+bulb+fixtures&qid=1570899991&sr=8-24


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Every time I search the internet for LED lighting I find some thing new. Here is an LED "Garage" light that puts out 6000 lumen at 6000k and is only $32. Has 3 directional light panels and fits a standard light bulb fixture. There are also lots of similar fixtures in the price range.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Deformable-Ceiling-Adjustable-Lighting-Activated/dp/B07MRDXQC7/ref=sr_1_24?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqLmsrZqX5QIVcRh9Ch0MmgbGEAAYAyAAEgKm-_D_BwE&hvadid=174278178912&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033106&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t3&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14202651117317387142&hvtargid=kwd-1803467787&hydadcr=8435_9618948&keywords=light+bulb+fixtures&qid=1570899991&sr=8-24
> 
> - LesB


Boy, those are cool…good looking too.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Please note that I started with "sorry". But after a 42 years in electrical construction and maintenance, I have seen alot of unsafe installations. Yes, the ground is for your safety, and you probably won't be touching the fixtures often..But the ground wire is also there to create a path for enough current to flow to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Without a ground, the fixture can become energized, and will be hot when you touch it and you become the current path to ground.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Menards and others also sell Edison base led lamps with vertical rows of LEDs in various lumen outputs. Just be sure to buy one with LEDs on the bottom pointing at the floor as well as the sides. Avoids dark spots.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Please note that I started with "sorry". But after a 42 years in electrical construction and maintenance, I have seen alot of unsafe installations. Yes, the ground is for your safety, and you probably won t be touching the fixtures often..But the ground wire is also there to create a path for enough current to flow to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Without a ground, the fixture can become energized, and will be hot when you touch it and you become the current path to ground.
> 
> - ibewjon


I hear ya, but I don't think I'm required to rewire my place for ground after all these years to change out a light fixture. 
Ground is always better but a lot of places are lacking them simply because at one time there weren't any. They're not hack jobs.

Now, the rest of the shop has been rewired for ground on the tools and such. While I had the walls apart long ago I replaced all the 14 without ground to 12 with ground. And I went from fuses to breakers. And grounded all fixtures that I could. When I looked at the ceiling and contemplated taking down the sheetrock or fishing to rewire the lights for grounding… I thought… I don't think so. They'll be just fine.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

LEDs don't have the issue with on/off cycles like fluorescents have (starter firing), but it is true that lifetime hours are statistical based on constant "on", "perfect" cooling environment, and often are just the rating for the LED emitter, not the internal power supply which is what usually fails first. Anyway you still get a lot of hours!

The best feature in my experience is the lack of warmup time needed for full brightness when the shop is cold.

Reading the spec sheet for the tube type "drop in" LEDs is critical. Many work with either the ballast or directly of the AC line. Trick is many are not compatible with the older transformer ballasts (heavy black tar-filled blocks), only the electronic ballasts. Even electronic ballasts are reported to fail quicker due to the different electrical load of the LEDs

I recently installed some new 4-tube troffers with electronic ballasts. I removed the ballasts and wired the LEDs direct. This required removal of the shunt in the connector "tombstones" (could have bought replacement tombstones otherwise). The wiring standards for directly powered LED tubes have changed over the past few years so I have written in marker which connectors are powered and which are not. The latest tubes I installed are powered on one end only, the older units are powered from both ends (hot on one end, neutral on the other. Of course Murphy dictated that the first I installed are wired to not work with the newer bulbs 8^).

Anyway, enjoy your 21st century lights!


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> The best feature in my experience is the lack of warmup time needed for full brightness when the shop is cold.
> 
> Anyway, enjoy your 21st century lights!
> 
> - splintergroup


With fluorescents in my shop in the cold I've never seen them get to warm. They immediately would get to flicker, then strobe, but always about half the brightness as in the Summer. The LED are instant on, and full tilt bright, no flicker, or strobe. Of course this Winter will be the first time I have a heated shop in the Winter since I rented a shop space years ago.


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