# Is safety really safe?



## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

I grew up in an era where nothing was safe. If you lost a finger or cut yourself, you learned real fast. These days it seems the tools are made with the lowest common denominator in mind. It's like they expect to sell their tools to people with mental handicaps. 
Aside from table saw blade guards, I think most safety attachments are not all that safe at all, or at least they make using the tool a lot harder and thus more unsafe. 
I'll admit it, I don't use any safety equipment at all. My brain is my safety equipment and my judgement. I'm not saying I haven't had any accidents, but none of them were preventable by a plastic shield that gets in my way. 
My PC router and table had a shield on it that pretty much made the tool useless especially if you were trying to set it up. It was held on with a C clamp and would not get out of the way to get the fence straight. Not to mention that it posed more of a hazard to rout with it on than off. 
My biggest fear is that a piece of carbide will fly off my TS and hit me between the eyes, so I lean to one side or the other when cutting. No big deal. 
I don't wear eye protection because I haven't found a pair of safety glasses I can wear over my prescription glasses with out driving them into my eyeballs.

So what's your take on all the safety stuff?


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## BobM001 (Jan 8, 2012)

You should ALWAYS wear safety glasses!


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Bob- I wear prescription eye glasses, no set of goggles I've ever had work for me with out shoving my glasses into my eye or eyelid, which gets them oily and I can's see anything then. That's not safe.


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

If your biggest fear truly is "that a piece of carbide will fly off my TS and hit me between the eyes", then simply get prescription shatterproof (kevlar, even) safety lenses in your glasses frames. Mine are… and with Flexon7 frames and titanium temples (arms).


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

This is a very complex topic but I will only provide a quick response. You cannot blame the manufactures and they don't have a choice. It is probably a way to try and avoid potential litigation (not always successfully). We live in a era where people strongly argue about personal freedom but the sad reality is that many won't take personal responsibility for their actions. Should some sort of accident occur then the first thing that they do is to look for someone else to blame and then sue. There are numerous examples, e.g. one idiot trying to drink coffee while driving driving and then getting burned because they spilt hot coffee on themselves. The end result was that this person successfully sued McDonalds so now we have coffee cups that warn us that coffee is hot…..


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Sanity- The world needs more wood workers and less lawyers.


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## millzit (Feb 5, 2012)

i think it's time for a safety meeting….<g>


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## madts (Dec 30, 2011)

I think that the best safety is shown when you are intimidated by your tools. Once you get complacent with them, that when accidents happen. Safety glasses are a must.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

When people take the time to learn the facts about the McDonald's hot coffee case, they stop using it as an example.

Personal responsibility is critical. Luckily, since we now know that corporations are people, THEY have to take responsibility, too.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

I use the safety equipment provided with the tool with some qualifications. I do think some of the safety attachments are more dangerous than safe. I always use the riving knife on the table saw, but I dont use a blade guard…I dont like not being able to see the line I am cutting. I always use push sticks unless the piece I am cutting is very wide. I always use safety glasses (mine are my glasses with hardened lenses.) I always use hearing protection when using the planer and router or other loud tools. I dont wear hearing protection with the table saw, jointer, drill press etc. My attitude is that accidents (as small as they may be) will eventually happen. How badly you're hurt, if at all, will depend on what safety devices you are using at the time.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

This can be a heated topic:
I wear prescription glasses as well. I NEVER wear safety goggles over top of these, it is dangerous, NOT being able to see properly is WORSE than no eye protection at all. I do have prescription safety glasses, because they are made from a plastic type lens, the dust tends to stick to them more, having to clean them more often (which I do).
Some of the "So called safety features on tools also ADD a FALSE sense of protection" 
Best protection…......COMMON SENSE.
Some people are just not able to use power tools …........period…...........they need to be told !


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

Nbeemer I am aware of the fact that many see the hot coffee case as an argument for tort reform and an example of frivolous litigation.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Okay. So you aren't aware of the facts.

Kinda' figured that.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Is this the case we are talking about ?
On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant located at 5001 Gibson Boulevard S.E. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her grandson's Ford Probe, and her grandson Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[11] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[12] Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[13] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg).[14] Two years of medical treatment followed.

"Liebeck's attorneys argued that McDonald's coffee was "defective", claiming it was too hot and more likely to cause serious injury than coffee served at any other establishment. "


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

Yep that's the one. Not sure what facts I am not aware of.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

Russell-I too am an old school tool user-I have learned that much like the samoriyes, samereyes, samurize, Hell them orientals that fight with swords, that you become one with your tool you feel it cut you feel the vibs of the motor you feel the knotholes that you are cutting through, a lot of us today just do not have that knack. I do not use any so called safety crap, it gets in my way and takes away my edge. OSHA and other org's are trying to protect us against ourselves, and I do not need their protection. I am 65 years old and grew up working with farm tools 36" open face sawblades in your face. Safety glasses my eye!!!! We live in a generation of people that are as smart-even brilliant people, but &^%^$$%# they don't a lick of good old fashion common sense. you can almost bet that I will be hearing from some of them. Ps. oh I guess I do use a bit of protection-An apron to keep the dust off me a little.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm a wuss. I'm now a bigger wuss than ever before 'cause I've learned that I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to doin' stupid.
The worst whippin' I ever got was from a string trimmer gettin' tangled with my leg. WOW! That hurt.
Safety can't be legislated or mandated, only learned.
Sure, I use all the stuff, hearing, eye, guards, splitters.
I'll go back to my old addage:
"Ignorance can be corrected. Stupid is forever." 
Bill


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

I rarely say "there are two kinds of people in this world," but ….

There sort of are.

There's the kind who does a little research, actively questioning their own assumptions.
There's the kind who like what they already know-right or wrong-and feel no need to validate it.

LINK

Or find your own source.

What *canadianchips* posted would be considered inaccurate by its omissions. Incomplete. Enough so, as to be misleading.

More info, from the link above:

"During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the companys own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.

McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer thirddegree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds' coffee sales.

Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees fahrenheit.

The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000-or three times compensatory damages-even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

No one will ever know the final ending to this case.

The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting. Such secret settlements, after public trials, should not be condoned."

I always find it fascinating that the "I trust the PEOPLE of this country …" crowd … doesn't … when it comes to jury trials


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

Still doesn't make sanitys remark wrong


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Uhhhhhhh.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Lemme' give another hypothetical, and TOTALLY fabricated example …..

As far as you know.

Let's say there was a company that-as part of its offerings-shipped glass to customers. Let's say that they were particularly busy at the holidays. Let's say Mother's Day was one such holiday.

Let's say that the CEO made a business decision to reduce the cushioning effect of the packaging used to ship this glassware, in an effort to save money, having been informed that this would increase the rate at which the glassware would break, and the rate at which Moms-including old lady Moms-would cut themselves on shards of broken glass.

And it did. Calls and e-mails-in this hypothetical story-came FLYING in, from across the country, from sons, daughters, and mothers, about hospital visits to stitch lacerated hands.

Happy Mother's Day, huh ?

As I always say about Steve Gass and SawStop: if you think this guy is unethical, and that-in some way-that makes him unique-you don't really know very much about how business is done.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*lizardhead*:

Or mine:

"When people take the time to learn the facts about the McDonald's hot coffee case, they stop using it as an example.

Personal responsibility is critical. Luckily, since we now know that corporations are people, THEY have to take responsibility, too."


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

Jeez…. I was just trying to make a point about taking personal responsibility. Try drinking less coffee in the am.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

Okay. You stand corrected 

I love coffee, incidentally. Please don't take that away from me…...


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

For safety-
My glasses are safety rated
For items where I have watch closely, I use a full face shield
I wear a thick leather apron
I wear hearing protection - always
I keep push sticks within easy reach and use them all of the time
I keep the floor clean
I keep the tools sharp
I keep my fingers away from the blades and if I see a problem taking shape, I stop advancing the material and power down to a full stop before moving anything.
I use a piece of scrap to push off cuts away


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

*Stuart*:

A near-apology…..

You got in the line of fire on this one, but … yeah … it's a pet peeve of mine: people who spread stories, as gospel, just because they fit with their ideological point of view, and regardless of truth.

I used to be in mortgage banking, years ago. I know how lending works. Another good example, then, would be people who blamed the totality of the sub-prime housing crisis on borrowers, because … they should have known…..

But what I know, from my career experience is this: while you can argue that the borrowers SHOULD have known …. the lenders DID know.

That's the thing about these stories, or mantras of "personal responsibility." Isn't EVERY person, including the ones at the company, bound by that same philosophy OF personal responsibility, or … is it only the person who is the least educated and/or most vulnerable ?

There's been so much mis-information spread, on this site (among all others), in the political realm … that it's very frustrating.

So … my near apology … is for singling you out.

Cheers !


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

Lemme' give another hypothetical, and TOTALLY fabricated example ….

Yeah or lets say that they were shipping loaded shotguns & hand grenades with the pin Taped to the underside of the box flaps. Why not go off in some hypothetical that has noting to do one with another. 
Fact is that whether or not we all know the facts about M-D's and coffee situation-it is still a classic argument for people that can't protect themselves against themselves.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

They don't necessarily need to be "protected against themselves," in a case like my hypothetical, or in a case like the McDonald's coffee lawsuit.

In those cases, they MAY need to be protected against corporations whose business decisions were made with the full knowledge that they would likely result in inordinate harm to the end consumer-a person who is not held legally responsible for thermodynamics knowledge, ER Physician education, or microscopic evaluation of packages received.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Fact is that whether or not we all know the facts about M-D's and coffee situation-it is still a classic argument for people that can't protect themselves against themselves."

Wow. Given another second of thought on that one … have a great day. Your mind is made up, and you'd prefer not to be troubled by annoying little facts.

Cheers !


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

Russell, I get you. My Hammer bandsaw came with a ridiculous blade guard. It had a tiny plastic window at the bottom and it reduced resaw capacity by 2 inches…WTF?!? I took the whole thing off. I understand that presumably if the band weld broke at the cutting part I could be hurt, but the chances of that happening are slim to none, the weld gets the most stress when it is at the wheels, and I don'tr put my face or body close to the cut.

Safety, IMO is a matter of evaluating risks, this idea that a company will do it for you is laughable, and they will still be sued, we all know that.


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

Nbeemer - this is the risk of posting quick responses to a complex subject (the first line of my original post). Hopefully this will make you a little happier:

Companies need to be responsible for their products and the customer needs to use them responsibly.

That said I don't like having to read on my coffee cup that coffee is hot. I don't like reading a manual for my clothes dryer that tells me not to get inside and turn it on. I don't like buying a wood working machine and having to go through several pages of legalese in the manual before I can find the operating instructions.

'nough said.


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## northeaster (Jul 30, 2011)

It seems to me that personal responsibility involves taking reasonable precautions around hazards you can readily foresee. I agree the most important safety device is the one between your ears. However, there are enough good, experienced woodworkers with missing digits or worse to convince me that people are not perfect every time they step into the shop.

For that reason, I think I'd be a fool not to take advantage of some simple things that really reduce my chance of injury. For example, properly adjusting a properly designed riving knife is just not that hard and there is enough data (published and real world experience) to say that it makes a significant difference.

The world may always build a better idiot, but there is no question that some "government nanny" laws have saved thousands of lives and injuries (consider seat belts/air bags). If you count the lost medical fees, work time, and family disruption, they're even likely to be financial positives. Reflexively opposing all of them just doesn't seem that smart.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

Never argue with a moron because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Just a saying that I thought might humor you.


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

No worries, Lizardhead. Knowing that … I wasn't arguing with you


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## Willeh (Dec 30, 2011)

I would say that 99 % of safety is prevention.

I don't use guards all of the time, only when it is safe to do so, or when it does not interfere with the work. Sometimes the added distraction is more dangerous.
Safety glasses are a simple and easy and cheap solution to a lot of problems. A chip/splinter in the eye while pushing a board through a table saw can result in a much more serious accident when the distraction causes your workpiece to slip and kick back through your chest.

Simple rules to follow:
1) Wear safety glasses (or if you wear precription glasses, those do the same thing most of the time, especially since most are now made with high-impact plastic anyways./
2) DONT WORK WHILE DISTRACTED
3) Eliminate sources of distraction - People, things, loose clothing etc
4) Use the right tools for the right job. (Use your safety tools - pushsticks, jigs, etc, use the correct tool to 
complete the task that you are attempting.
5) Do not mis-use tools - I've seen people hurt while trying stupid like trying to rip a short piece of wood on a 
mitre saw, or freehand small pieces of wood through a table saw
6) THINK! - Think about what you are about to do, think about the consequences and possible outcomes of what you are about do. Think that you are about to do something in the safest way possible. Think about what you can do to avoid an accident
7) Be your own judge - If you are having a lousy day, feeling angry/upset, tired etc, get out of the shop. Most accident happen when you are distracted by yourself.

All of those things will do far more than any safety guard that you will come across. Most are poorly designed and are only stuck on there to avoid some level of liability on behalf of the manufacturer. Human error is the largest cause of accidents in the shop, far more than equipment failure. Relying on flimsey or poorly designed "Safety' devices will not prevent accidents.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

It doesn't matter how safe something is, it can still turn around and bite you.

Lack of concentration

complacency

stupidity

laziness

are the most dangerous things in the workshop.


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## Willeh (Dec 30, 2011)

Just to put a different spin on this topic. 
Sure, there are a wide variety of people here, Some use all of the safety gear imaginable, some use none of it. The line that divides us is the line of people who have already had an accident, and those that will eventually. Hopefully when you have yours or I have mine, (I see it as an inevitability - I just try to minimise my exposure by following the rules i posted above) it will not be serious.

Here is a comparison for all those who think that any safety equipment is crap/useless:

Look at tools in the past 50 years. I doubt any table saw manufactured in the 1950s had much in the way of safety equipment. Even from things as basic as a quick shut-off switch that you can kick or knee if you need to stop the saw, to riving knives, guards, anti kick-back pawls etc. 50 years later, most of that stuff is standard equipment, and likely, some of it is good innovation - safety switches, riving knives etc. Some of it is crap (i've yet to see a guard or anti-kickback pawl that doesnt suck or make it more difficult to work.

Now, lets compare that with cars. a 1950s chevy weighted in excess of 2 tons, had steel bumpers, and not much else. 50 years later, cars are smaller, lighter, made of plastic, but most cars have seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones etc. There are lots of people out there (And here too) that would pick a 59 chevy for safety over a 2009 any day. Lots would say they feel safer in the car that was built like a tank, and all that safety crap doesnt help. To those of you, watch this video:





At the end of the day, the equipment has changed, people still cause accidents. Safety equipment is used to lessen the chance of an accident, or reduce the extent of an accident. Use of the right safety equipment, that works, that does not interfere, and that does not create more danger by cause of distraction or impair your ability to complete the task will lessen your chances of being hurt, or atleast lessen the severity of your accident.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

I love threads like this…It's always interesting to hear statements that hint that the only reason why people have accidents is unsafe machine use/inexperience etc. Sorry Russel, I don't buy your statement that "My brain is my safety equipment and my judgement…" The nature of an accident is that it unexpected; there are plenty of WW on this site that have extensive experience and use very safe work practices, but have had something unexpected happen and been injured as a result. If you haven't been injured it has been because you've been lucky so far, not safe. Using safety equipment is not a license to adopt unsafe practices, it is an acknowledgement that the unexpected happens.
This line of reasoning is basically: 
a)I think what I do is safe and smart and 
b)I haven't had an accident yet so
c)my work practices must be safe and smart.
Logically this argument makes no sense. It's similar to what I sometimes hear at work; "I smoke and nothing bad has happened to me therefore smoking must be safe…"


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow, that is scary!

With all the saw related injuries you always here well it is some stupid newbie who didn't know what they were doing and it is their fault not the saws.

I think the majority of accidents happen when people become complacent with tools or with the above actually convinced themselves they are such good woodworkers that they have outsmarted every mfg and there is no need for safety equipment.

So you scientifically calculated how far off to the side you stand because you know the exact angle that something is going to fly and that is why you are safe. Can you post those exact figures so the mfgs can save millions and use your info to print on the saws. Heck, if it is so safe we should all know about it. Sounds a bit silly doesn't it.

Whenever I hear someone say I have been doing this for XXX years" I always think yes, but doesn't mean you have been doing it right for all those years.

My eyesight is very important to me and I protect them. Close your eyes for a day and then think about how stupid you would feel if you were always like that.


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

As far as the safety equip causing issues with workflow I do agree. That is because saw mfg's have become so lazy that they do not care to innovate. That is why that saw lawsuit was so important. It go the mfg's off their asses to invent better gaurds that work and don't get in the way.

Saw Stop is not the answer but at least they are pushing new innovation.


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## Sanity (Jan 13, 2011)

I ride motorcycles and think that there is something of a parallel with woodworking. Both have a degree of inherent risk and one has to accept that. However the risk can be mitigated with good training and using good quality and well maintained equipment, e.g. I wear a helmet for riding and I wear both eye and ear protection when woodworking. I don't drink and drive and I don't drink when using power tools.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

Stuart's motorcycle reference reminds me of an observation that seems to show that some people will do whatever is needed to be unsafe.

I live in northern MA about 10 miles from the NH line. I sometimes ride my bicycle on a route that takes me into NH. At the state line, there is an overpass. This is a favorite stop for the motorcyclists. MA requires helmets and NH does not, so this is the place to put the helmet on or take it off. Since MA has more liberal marijuana laws, it is also the place to have a first or last smoke.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm outta here


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## eaglewrangler (Jun 15, 2011)

I worked for years with out safety glasses, nail guns, metal grinding, chain saws. Then I got hit by a soccerball and had both eyes taped shut for two week plus, still see all sorts of "things" in my one eye, scarring and floating things. so I always wear safety glasses when I am doing anything not dangerous or dusty, that is when you get injured, always something stupid, like a little tree branch or something falling off a shelf in your face when reach for the glue. It is hard to plan for those, but that is when you need to look out.

Second worry, working with others scares the crap out of my. If someone says, shut up I know what I am doing….run, duck or move your car, something bad will happen next. Other peoples tool will get you too. I used someone elses circular saw, and the guard would stick open, and it made a nice circle in the floor twice when I set it down. And worse yet a museum tour was looking on, so about twenty people saw it, it was a temp. floor thankfully, so no harm done. He told me after the saw sticks. Other people had saws that wouldn't stop or power brake like they should, and you get used to some level of safety.

Third thing is I tend to get cuts on turned off tools, changing planer blades or sharpening chain saws, even on a sharp corner of wood. I get dumber with the ear phone off, thinking it is safe now. 
1 wear safety glasses
2 work alone with own tools
3 expect the unexpected


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't claim to be as smart as two guys arguing over spilt McDonalds coffee and like a few people here, I don't get all hung up about dust collection microns and blade guards. I try to think it through. I do know that I have had two good friends relate to me thier experiences at the emergency room hospital as an ER doc goes through the procedure to remove a foreign object that has been embedded in a persons eye ball.

If there is one safety rule I practice for myself, it is that glasses always cover my eyes when operating any power tool. Any optometrist can make it simple and easy for anyone who wears prescription glasses….................


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

9 Helpful Tips To Deal With Negative People
1) Don't get into an argument
One of the most important things I learned is not to debate with a negative person. A negative person likely has very staunch views and isn't going to change that just because of what you said. Whatever you say, he/she can find 10 different reasons to back up his/her viewpoint. The discussion will just swirl into more negativity, and you pull yourself down in the process. You can give constructive comments, and if the person rebuts with no signs of backing down, don't engage further.

2) Empathize with them
Have you ever been annoyed by something before, then have someone tell you to "relax"? How did you feel? Did you relax as the person suggested or did you feel even more worked up?

From my experience, people who are negative (or upset for that matter) benefit more from an empathetic ear than suggestions/solutions on what he/she should do. By helping them to address their emotions, the solutions will automatically come to them (it's always been inside them anyway).

3) Lend a helping hand
Some people complain as a way of crying for help. They may not be conscious of it though, so their comments come across as complaints rather than requests. Take the onus to lend a helping hand. Just a simple "Are you okay?" or "Is there anything I can do to help you?" can do wonders.

4) Stick to light topics
Some negative people are triggered by certain topics. Take for example: One of my friends sinks into a self-victimizing mode whenever we talk about his work. No matter what I say (or don't say), he'll keep complaining once we talk about work.

Our 1st instinct with negative people should be to help bring them to a more positive place (I.e. steps #2 and #3). But if it's apparent the person is stuck in his/her negativity, the unhappiness may be too deeply rooted to address in a one-off conversation, or for you to help him/her unravel it. Bring in a new topic to lighten the mood. Simple things like new movies, daily occurrences, common friends, make for light conversation. Keep it to areas the person feels positive towards.

5) Ignore the negative comments
One way to help the negative person "get it" is to ignore the negative comments. If he/she goes into a negative swirl, ignore or give a simple "I see" or "Ok" reply. On the other hand, when he/she is being positive, reply in affirmation and enthusiasm. Do this often and soon he/she will know positivity pays off. He/she will adjust to be more positive accordingly.

6) Praise the person for the positive things
Negative people aren't just negative to others. They're also negative to themselves. If you already feel negative around them, imagine how they must feel all the time. What are the things the person is good at? What do you like about the person? Recognize the positive things and praise him/her for it. He/she will be surprised at first and might reject the compliment, but on the inside he/she will feel positive about it. That's the first seed of positivity you're planting in him/her and it'll bloom in the long-term.

7) Hang out in 3′s or more people
Having someone else in the conversation works wonders in easing the load. In a 1-1 communication, all the negativity will be directed towards you. With someone else in the conversation, you don't have to bear the full brunt of the negativity. This way you can focus more on doing steps #1 (Empathizing) and #2 (Helping the person).

8) Be responsible for your reaction
Whether the person is negative or not, ultimately you're the one who is perceiving the person is negative. When you recognize that, actually the negativity is the product of your lens. Take responsibility for your perceptions. For every trait, you can interpret it in a positive and a negative manner. Learn to see the goodness of the person than the negative. It may be tough initially, but once you cultivate the skill, it becomes second nature.

9) Reduce contact with them / Avoid them
If all else fails, reduce contact with them or avoid them altogether. If it's a good friend, let him/her know of the severity of the issue and work it out where possible. It's not healthy to spend too much time with people who drain you. Your time is precious, so spend it with people who have positive effects on you.


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## drfixit (Oct 16, 2009)

As both a wood worker and a risk & safety director I really only have one thing to say about not wearing safety glasses…


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Okay. 
A few thoughts and responses. 
First, it's good to find a forum where there are lots of people with feedback. 
Second, it's good that any disagreements were handled with out getting mad. That's rare and you should pat yourselves on the back for it.

dbray45- I use pushsticks as well, but only for those cuts on the TS that are close to my fingers, (always on the router). My saw has a riving knife which seems to be doing a great job. I also use scrap wood to move small cut pieces away. I keep my shop clean and my tools sharp as well. These are best practices which differ from safety pieces that come on tools though. Most of my tools are free of those annoying plastic (get in the way cover your a$$ BS parts) that come on the tool. 
I'll argue with anyone that says the safety plastic that came on MY tools, (because tools do vary), are safe.

lizardhead- I agree. It is more likely that younger people will be more trusting of safety equipment on saws and rotary devices because they grew up under different circumstances than we did. When I was a kid most of the woodworking tools were fearsome and you learned a healthy respect for them. Tools today are lighter, quieter, and have pages of safety instructions which can lend a false sense of security to the user. 
Respect the tool and realize every time you use it that it could do harm. Don't take chances. Develop that Zen like you said.

Manitario- It is the nature of our craft that we are much more at risk, and therefor must use discipline in our approach to a tool, (especially one we use rarely or are inexperienced with), each time it is used. To forget this does not always result in an injury even if conditions for an injury were highly likely. That being said, no plastic guard, at least on my set of tools, can prevent this any more than using respect and common sense can. I don't think the plastic even augments my safety but in fact can make the tool more unsafe as in the example of the router table I purchased from PC. It gets in the way, prevents me from seeing what I'm doing, and is a source of frustration. Those three alone constitute a greater risk in my opinion.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

WOODIE1- I heard a story about a guy who got a piece of carbide from a table saw embedded in his forehead, scull bone actually. My 'lean' is mostly out of fear of that happening, its a psychological response. There is always a greater chance the carbide will come off with the angle of the blade, but I agree, it is a lame thing to do, but that doesn't mean I'll stop doing it. The plastic shield won't do much against a piece of carbide anyway, but it's rare that it would happen. I will invest in a face shield though because eye protection (goggles) is not the way to go when you have designer glasses. The best protection is to not cut dubious wood on a TS and to buy high quality blades and change them at the first sign that they don't cut right.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

I use a full face shield since I wear Rx glasses.


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## rep (Nov 20, 2009)

I have a (probably dumb) question - related to the topic. (New woodworker)

I keep seeing where someone states that they don't use the TS blade guard/dust shield because the cannot see the line for the cut.

I use my guard/shield and I cannot see the line for the cut - but I set up the fence/miter to the specific dimension, and push the board thru. Why do I need to see the cut? What would I see, and what correction would I make if I could see?


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Rick - You are using your guard and that is great thing. Some of us "older" guys do not use it for a variety of reasons. Most of the reasons stem from the fact that we grew up without using one and changing how you use the saw is not in the forefront of their thinking. You should be commended, keep using the guard.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Valid point Rick !
As above said: OLD school way vs NEW SCHOOL WAY !
Personally I use my table saw for a lot of other things than RIPPING, so I would spend a lot of time removing blade guard.
AND there is no such thing as a "DUMB question," it is better to "ASK" than to think you know it all and go ahead doing it ,...alll…..wrong.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

In my opinion I am a free man (in spite of my wife's opinion) and that means that I have the right to make my own decisions when it comes to my own personal safety. I have been working safely in my shop for 16 years except for two exceptions when I first started (I cut off both hands, lol). Two minor injuries, cut my finger twice. These injuries were not due to stupidity or carelessness. My bandsaw, (the next safest of all my machines) attacked me twice. This hasn't occurred again after the bandsaw got to know me better, we now enjoy mutual respect.

My philosophy is that you should use whatever safety measures you deem desirable/necessarry and you feel comfortable with them. It is no joke getting badly hurt or perhaps maimed for life. On the other hand I don't want to do woodworking in a diving bell, but that does not mean that I don't observe all the safety precautions I think necessary, and I NEVER compromise with those precautions. I am 100% consistence in that regard.

I do not want a safety Nazi telling me what I should do in my own shop, but I don't mind folks respectively suggesting safety measures. I just don't want any heat because I don't behave the way some stranger thinks I should do.

When my grandkids are in the shop safety is totally in focus. I explain the dangers, show them how to prevent them, I equip them with safety glasses, dust masks, and hearing protection when appropriate, and I keep a close eye on them as they work. I also try to set a good example when they are watching me do something and I usually point out the safety measures I'm taking while the work is being done.

I also believe that the best safety device is our brain if it is working all right. We have all seen some of the incredibly stupid and dangerous things some people get up to. Let's face it, apart from incarceration in a padded cell there is just no hope for those kind of people.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

rep- You can't use a fence when you rip 4×8 sheets of plywood, or pieces longer than the table of the saw. I made about 20 cuts today on some 4×8 sheets and couldn't use a fence on any of them. The blade guard would have prevented me from seeing my line because when you're an old fart like me, 8 feet is a long way away.


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## pons (Jan 24, 2012)

As a firm believer in the existence of a fellow named Murphy, you can encase the TS in carbonite and something will happen.
The only thing we can do, no matter what safety equipment is used, is not to rush thru stuff. IMHO that is the cause of most accidents.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

One point I forgot to mention which I think is one of the most important. From my own experience, the most dangerous type of work is production work. Many repetitions of the same cut becomes very boring and it' very easy to let the mind wander and lose focus on the task at hand, perhaps one good reason most production businesses are usually pretty strict with safety measures (or at least should be). For the hobby woodworker it is always smart to give extra attention to safety measures before production work begins.

I just picked up a great safety article from the Daily Mail U.K. in the link below: Keep in mind that a dual carriage way is a freeway.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109147/Official-advice-mobility-scooters-Dont-drive-youre-blind-CAN-motorway-youve-got-flashing-amber-light.html


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Your title "Is safety really Safe?" is a lot like quality. The answer is about the same - "what is acceptable." To different people there are different answers because acceptable to one is not for the other. If you assign metrics or layers to the question and put safeguards accordingly, there are always people out there that will offer their bodies to provide real work testing. Then you have the others that with no safeguards will instinctively be extremely careful.

Stefang is mostly correct, you will get more accidents in a production shop on average but I think an untrained hobbiest could be more at risk. In a work setting there are people around and first aide kits that are appropriate and if there is an accident, help is close by. The hobibiest, they are in their shop alone and if seriously injured, shock and or blood loss could be a very serious issue with no one around.


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## JimDaddyO (Dec 20, 2009)

I don't need glasses according to my Dr. but I wear them all the same for close up and detail work, otherwise it is just a blur. So, when I got my safety glasses I had a no line bifocal put in them. The main part is plain safety glass, but the lower part has a +1 magnification so I can see the lines on tape measures etc….....and I use them when I work. Prescription safety glasses, with side shields are a small thing to invest in compared to the care and feeding of a seeing eye dog.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

I have almost 1 million miles on motorcycles-Last night was the 1st of a six session riders enhancement program in which I was forced to wear gloves for "My Safety" I seldom wear gloves because they reduce the feel of the grip on the handle bars. The precision at which you must ride in this course is demanding. I was doing fine until one of the instructors called me out for not wearing gloves, so I put the gloves on and my performance dropped significantly. A simple case of what might be deemed safe (for the masses) in the eyes of our caretakers is not always safe for individuals.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, alot of safety equipment is unsafe, not because of it's design or intent, but because it lures people into a sense of complacency because the tool has "safety" guards. Look, I've seen guys have their shirts ripped off by 3 phase generators, arms caught in drill presses (still trying to figure out how he managed that) cut their hands on routers, cut themselves on tablesaws…..

The one common thing about what they were doing, was that they weren't really paying attention to what was going on around them. And that's why they got hurt. And I'm not really sure I'll ever figure out about the guy with the drill press, how is that even possible?


> ?


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Russel, The one and only time I tried to rip a sheet of plywood without a fence I suddenly found a 4'x8' frisbee loose in my shop! No injuries but I had to throw those pants away! Now I use a circular saw and clamp on straightedge. I'm not too smart but I'm a fast learner.


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

gfadvm, in contrast, I practically never use a fence or the miter. Most of my cuts are too large and I free hand them. At one time all I had was a table saw, so I'm extremely familiar with them. I cut some adirondack chair back slats, 7 of them at 35.5 inches long and from 3.5 inches wide to 2.5 inches wide just tonight and the cuts look factory sharp and straight. There is just no way to use a fence or miter on cuts like those. I wobble something terrible with a circular saw so as a result I practically never use one.


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## usnret (Jul 14, 2011)

If you make something idiot proof they will just build a better idiot. Todays society no longer believes in natural selection. Not everyone can become the CEO of a corporation or President of the United States. Some people will reach the highest level as a dishwasher, well get over it.


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## Visions (Sep 12, 2011)

Russell P,

You need a taper jig (LINK), easy to build and they work great. I don't want to hear the BS about "I've been doing it for…..". If you knowingly take stupid risks and chance fate too many times, you WILL be a statistic.

Sorry, I greatly dislike it when people speak of performing grandly stupid and irresponsible acts and try to justify them with even more foolish and outright stupid excuses like "it's all I had" or "it's too big to make the cut properly".

And Russell, I really don't mean to offend. I don't know you, and you're likely a wonderful person. I just disagree with your actions strongly. And for a good reason, I don't want to see you posting in a week about losing a bunch of fingers.

You need to taper 35" long boards, the taper jig above will do it. Or, you could cut a piece of plywood, tack a runner on the bottom to go in the miter slot, and on the other side tack a fence strip at the proper angle to cut the taper. That is simple and 1 billion times safer than "free-handing" on a tablesaw.

Or, use a bandsaw. Pretty simple solution right there.
Heck, I'd sell my table saw and buy a bandsaw before I tried a free-hand cut on a table-saw.

Please man, just be safer!


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

Kenny, a jig will work for some cuts, it won't work on 4×8 sheets of plywood. The 1×4's I ripped tonight by hand were 35.5 inches long. The jig would have to be at least that long to work, (the width was ripped from 3.5 inches at one end to 2.5 inches on the other and these cuts were small in my world. Most of the cuts I make are 4 - 8 feet in length. I'm not going to argue the merits of a monster jig and the hazard that poses. This is a new shop and I don't have all the tools I will have, but I don't think I'll be making jigs, I would rather spend the time making some tables that incorporate the table saw and the router, which I'm planing to do once I get the PC TS. Right now I have a Ryobi contractors saw. It's portable and not nearly as solid on the floor as I want or to build a table around. The table I have plans for will render this subject academic as I will be able to rig any fence I want with bar clamps and have room to use a large miter. My hands were nowhere near the blade and the riving blade works like a champ. The blade barely cleared the wood so even if I sneezed my hands were safe and I stood to the side in case of a kickback which is unlikely with a soft pine 1×4 anyway, at least a kick back that would do any harm. I would have used the band saw for anything thicker.


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## Visions (Sep 12, 2011)

As for shop safety, I am a perfect example of exactly why you need to take every precaution possible in the shop.

Having now lost approximately 80-90% of the feeling in my left index finger after stabbing a chisel between it and the middle finger and cutting it so deeply I severed the nerve, I can tell you with confidence that it doesn't need to be a power tool to hurt you badly or cost a ton of money in the ER. I received 4 stitches, a bunch of x-rays and who knows what else when I stabbed myself with the chisel, and it cost $1,600. Hardly a small fee for a simple slip with a chisel. 
It has had a good bit of impact on me as well. I have had to relearn many things, from tying my shoes to typing, trying to pick up small things or fasten a button on a shirt, I've had to relearn it all. Literally anything that required any amount of dexterity or sensitivity in that finger I've had to relearn. And you would never believe how much you use that finger until you lose it.

And in reality, what happened to me is very, very minor, yet it has had a huge impact on my life. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have a serious injury. It brings tears to my eyes just to consider it.

And that is just one of a long list of injuries, some bad, others not so much.

Trust me, I try to be as safe as I can. I wear prescription safety glasses and a face-shield. I use quality push sticks, I calibrate all my machines constantly. I use whatever safety devices I can that are user-friendly and actually promote safety. Yet I still get hurt. And it's never in ways you would think or expect. It's always from strange things that you would never expect in a million years. Even my friends who have witnessed things say they'd never believe it unless they were there to see it.

Anyone who doesn't do all they can to be safe is taking a foolish and unnecessary risk. Dust, noise and those types of things, well, that's a bit easier to overlook. But taking unnecessary risks on the tablesaw or other large power tool, that's just stupid.

You can work in a dusty shop for a day or two with no real effects. But it takes a fraction of a second for a tablesaw, or even a lowly chisel, to change your entire life in a way you can never change back.

Trust me on that, I know.


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## Visions (Sep 12, 2011)

"I stood to the side in case of a kickback which is unlikely with a soft pine 1×4 anyway, at least a kick back that would do any harm"

Funny you say that. My buddy had a kick-back with a 32" pine 1×4 (actually while making an adirondack chair), and that "soft pine" went through the back wall of his shop 8' away, which was made from T-111 we installed a few months prior, and was found resting over 10' from the back of the shop on his lawn.

No harm? Hardly! That would hurt you badly, if not kill you.

As for him, he's damn lucky he's a lefty and was standing to the right of the fence. The trajectory shows it would have hit him had he been where I stand to rip, just off the left of the saw blade's path.

Anyway Russell, I really think you should read your last post again and think a bit about what you say in it.

Many of your statements are incorrect. I have a taper jig that I use to taper legs up to 34" long, and I could easily go to 40" if I wanted, and all on my Craftsman contractor saw.

You can not use jigs for 4'x8' sheets of ply? Really? More like you can't safely free-hand one on a tablesaw!

I have a jig that will handle a 4×8, no problem. And from any angle, corner to corner. This magical jig is a simple 12' piece of Trex that I ripped dead straight. I then routed a slot down the middle (actually several 2' long slots, so to leave some structural integrity) and fashioned some clamps from 1"x1/4" aluminum that work with 3/8" all-thread and a knob on the top. I can run a jig saw, router or circ saw down this with pin-point accuracy.

Making jigs to work safely is easy. You just need to have a desire to be safe. If you're convinced "it" will never happen to you, well….


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

In regards to safety devices on tools, I seldom use the cheap, flimsy ones that some manufacturers slap on their equipment to satisfy OSHA. I do however, use well-designed devices that were thoughtfully designed into a tool. Riving knives are a good example of a well-designed safety device. Thermal overload switches on motors are another excellent example. Festool integrates dust collection into all of their tools and I take advantage of that.

I've used a Delta shaper which came with a horribly designed guard that was a hodgepodge of steel bars and plastic shields. That thing was thrown out immediately.

There are two attitudes regarding safety that bother me. One is that accidents won't happen to a skilled woodworker. The second is that they will happen to anyone if they are unlucky. Luckiness or unluckiness are not factors in accidents. Accidents happen due to very specific circumstances and not because of freak incidents.

Now some people will say that everyone makes mistakes. That is true but mistakes can easily be minimized with a good understanding of each tool, how it cuts and what forces it generates. Until people learn special techniques to perform certain operations those operations should be avoided. Don't rip thin stock on the tablesaw. Don't cut round stock on the bandsaw. Never rip a board shorter than 12" and so on.

The dangers of repetitive operations can be rendered harmless easily enough. If repeat cuts are needed, then the extra 10 minutes to setup a few precautions is easily justified. Feather-boards, guards, hold-downs, etc. are all excellent ways to keep the fingers out of harm's way. It is pretty hard to cut off one's fingers if they never are never close to the blade to begin with. For production type settings the option to use power feeders shouldn't be neglected.

I build jigs like tablesaw sleds with a simple device that makes it hard for people to put their fingers in line with the blade. A 6" block of wood screwed to the middle of the fence makes it extremely awkward for anyone to get their fingers closer than 3" to the blade during a cut. Humans have a tendency to do what feels natural and will not unconsciously wrap their fingers around the corner of a block of wood. Adding a stop block on the outfeed table can prevent someone from pushing the sled far enough for the blade to exit through the back of the block.

The final point I'll stress is redundancy. Never count on any single factor to keep people safe. Neither the mind, nor experience, nor a push board is enough. Every operation needs to have at least two separate safety measures that work independently of each other. Three is better. Occasionally an operator loses concentration, a piece of wood suddenly breaks or a tool malfunctions. Most of those incidents can be avoided by a good operator but if they do happen, there needs to be at least one other precaution that will prevent injury.

Nearly 10 years in the shop for me and very few incidents (five kickbacks (four on router table) and two broken bandsaw blades. The few I've had resulted in no injury only because the secondary precautions saved me. Tablesaw kickback could have been avoided with either a longer outfeed table or riving knife. Three of the router incidents were because of too deep a cut or improper setup. The fourth router kickback was due to not checking the piece of wood so I missed seeing the huge knot that led to the kickback. The blades breaking caused no harm since the guard was set just above the board and my hands were not near the blade.

In other words, every incident was a result of user error (blades probably broke because I didn't install sharp ones). Other people might have called them freak incidents since I've a reputation for being a safe worker yet in each case I was able to trace the cause and effect of user error. I've also learned from each one.

I don't get those router kickbacks anymore. In spite of that I've also become more safe on the router table and do shaping operations with full-blown jigs instead of just using double-stick tape and templates. The jigs use hold downs to keep my hands far from the cutter.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

a straight 1×4 clamped on the edges of the plywood provides a nice perfectly straight cut with a… circular saw. No excuses for not thinking, sorry man, but it's the guy who thinks he's perfectly safe that are the guys I was describing above, the one with missing appendages….


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

safety for the most part lies between your ears, but it also requires common sense and what is safe for one may not for another, experience dictates, however, there is an old expression, "listen or feel", when you have to pull a 'Tubafore" out your a** , or sit in an ER wondering if you will ever see again or be able to use your hand, or as a male lose one of your most precious body parts, you will rethink, just dont try to sell it, what you do in your shop is your business, just don't try to convince inexperienced wood workers that some of this stupidy is safe, its not, 40 some years doing this for a living, and a butchered left hand, I know, safety is somewhere there is no extreme , and it takes approx 1 /1000 of a second, to understand it, wish you well, you going to need all the luck you can get, take this BS , else where,


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## Visions (Sep 12, 2011)

JAAune,

I disagree about there being no freak accidents, and there being no such thing as luck. Having been the victim of several truly freak accidents, I can attest to the fact that they can, and do, happen. I have friends who have witnessed them to attest to it.

And I'm sorry, but if having the motor and gearbox shatter during normal operation on a rather new and extremely well cared for table saw isn't a freak accident, I don't know what is. I had it examined by a specialist, as did the manufacturer. Neither said they had even seen anything like it without extreme abuse being inflicted, never with anything close to my circumstances. Even in the case of accidental kickback, they both agreed it should not have caused the damage to the saw that was present when they examined the saw.

Myself, and both other parties who examined the saw, felt the kickback was caused by the breakage, not the other way around. And trust me, for a manufacturer to admit that says a lot!
And as an FYI, no, I did not try to sue or ask for money. I got all I wanted, the saw examined and a replacement tool (not another saw!)

Yes, some of my accidents are self inflicted, no doubt! I operated the chisel that took the feeling from my left index finger, I have no issue admitting that. 
BUT, I have had more machines and tools break in weird ways, and with witnesses who will state I was doing everything by the book, than is possible to explain without simple bad luck. Not to mention non-shop related events.

I know, I too used to say there's no such thing as luck when I was younger. And then it's as if someone just decided to prove me wrong. I believe in luck now, to some degree anyway. I really don't have a choice.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I stumbled upon this thread.
I agree with your general assumption that a lot of safety features on a lot of tools are more dangerous than the potential accident they're trying to prevent.
That being said, COME ON!
If I am reading all this correctly, you are making free hand cuts on a Ryobi contractor's saw with no fence, no guard, and you think that is ok.
Are you serious?
Have you read the case study about the legal case that was the lauching pad for the whole SawStop fiasco? You are that guy. 
What I mean by that is this. The first time I read about the case that was used as an example to get the SawStop in consideration by the government as a mandantory safety device, I scratched my head in wonderment. I wondered who in the world makes free hand cuts on a POS Ryobi saw with no guards, no fences, and expects nothing to happen to him?
YOU ARE THAT GUY!

I don't care how long you've been doing it. If you continue to cut without a fence, it is not if, but WHEN a piece kicks to one side a tad too far and is flung back towards you like a wooden projectile. 
Please for the sake of all that is holy stop doing this. I would have chunked the Ryobi guard from that saw long ago. There are safer ways to make cuts though.

You keep bringing up 4×8 sheets as being too large as an excuse. Most people do not have capacity on their saws for that large of material. I do, but that's not the point. I didn't always. If the material is too big for the table saw, it's time to use the circular saw to get it down to a manageable size. Another option is to build a saw station with enough overhang on each side to handle large sheet goods. Either way, if you don't own one, the price of a circular saw is way lower than the doctor bill you will have. 
I know, I hate circular saws too. Sometimes there is just no other way though.

.

All that being said, I have a question. What are you going to do when you cut a finger or two (or hand) off? I hope you don't plan to sue. This thread would put a quick end to your case. I hope it would anyway.
There is a reason I bring that up. 
The case I mentioned earlier, the one that brought SawStop into the spotlight, was a joke that is similar to what you have admited to in eerily similar ways. 
The guy was cutting wood flooring on a Ryobi saw, with no guards, no fence and he'd been doing it on a regular basis. Then one day….....


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

You know - I do agree that 4' x 8' sheets of plywood are generally too large to saw on a contractor table saw - at least for me. That is why I lay out the cuts on paper, have at least one cut that reduces the size significantly and have it cut at the store on a panel saw. This way all of my cuts are clean and manageable. I have pushed a piece through the tablesaw ONCE without a fence and damn that board takes flight in a hurry, you CANNOT get out of way faster than it moves - unless your saw is total crap and that is a different problem.

If I were handling that many large pieces, I would have a panel saw in place for safety and space - in a day. And yes, you CAN make a taper jig for a panel saw.


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## markplusone (Apr 23, 2010)

Coffee hot…dont spill. LOL You guys are hilarious. Incedentally, it is because of these kinds of lawsuits and people having to blame someone, anyone other than themselves that healthcare costs are where they are and why our power equipment comes with enought saftey equipment that a drunken one eyed teletubby with the I.Q. of half a jar of mayonaise can use. I feel sorry for the ladys burns but coffee is hot. Hot stuff burns. Most people buy coffee on a regular occurence from the same source. This was a temperature of coffee that was a standard for all McD's for how long. Ten years according to the article. And out of that period of time, and undoubtably millions and millions of cups of coffee, 700 people burned themselves. Sounds like natural selection to me. As for the example provided of dinnerware and arriving broken. Open the box, see broken glass, DONT TOUCH. My 3 yo. has that down. Yes and as for corporate america and the subprime lending debacle, I agree the banks did know. We should have let them fall flat on their face, go bankrupt. Same with GM and everyone else we had to bail out and also the borrowers as well. Self reliance is something learned. Your going to lose once in a while but you will learn. Get better, stronger and thats something


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## markplusone (Apr 23, 2010)

So just to bring it all back around, I do not use safety equipment in almost all of my shop equipment. My plunge router has a shield…thats about it. BUT…BUT…BUT I always use hearing protection. My glasses are polycarbonate and large lens, all my blades and knives are sharpened to my spec and I take away all distractions while using a machine. I listen and feel the machine for feedback and regularly inspect for wear. A 5 dollar bearing and 2 hours to replace it is worth not having the mandrel fly off and hit something or someone. Be safe guys, be clearheaded, be responsible, be knowlegible about procedures and equipment. Remember, a dose of common sense goes a long long way in safety.


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## BerBer5985 (Oct 10, 2011)

The thing to me about the mcdonalds story is strictly coffee is hot and it can burn, don't blame mcdonalds when you spill it on yourself. She put the coffee cup full of hot coffee in her lap, removed the lid that keeps the coffee safely inside and spilled it on herself. I'm sorry I don't care how hot the coffee was, it wouldn't have burned her had she not removed the lid and spilt it on herself. Thats like sueing a knife company for selling a knife that's "too sharp". The flip side of the argument is if the coffee wasn't hot enough, that same lady probably would have complained about that. Why didn't they sue the company that sells the coffee maker that keeps the coffee that hot. I mean, they should have a restrictor on there to prevent you from heating liquids that hot. Why not go further and just go after the person who brews the coffee that states that coffee should be brewed at 200 degrees for optimum flavor. Im sure more people fall on the concrete and hurt themselves than people who get burned from hot coffee at mcdonalds, keys sue the concrete companies for making the concrete too hard and too rough. Obviously the people who laid the concrete know that people can fall and get hurt on it. I'm just making a point about how everyone is sue happy. If youre afraid of using a saw because you might get hurt, don't use a saw.


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I use very little safety equipment myself. My main safety devices are my safety glasses and my push sticks. However, I just can't see free handing cuts on a table saw. That is an accident waiting to happen. It's one thing to take safety into your own hands. It's a whole different matter to perform operations that will (not might, but WILL eventually) cause an accident. 
I fully agree with the orginal poster that some of the safety devices on some machines are crap and dangerous themselves. They can cause an accident before they protect you from one. I don't use my guard or splitter on my Ridgid table saw for that reason. Freehanding cuts on a table saw though, and excusing it because one has always done it? 
There is a safe way to free hand cuts on large material. It's called a circular saw. That's what they are designed for. They are not expensive either.

Incidentally, the last post by the original poster was about ripping a taper on some 35 point something boards. He seems to be such a problem because a taper jig won't work? I have a taper jig that will handle up to 48 inches. I bought it on sale for $20 at Sears. I have another one that I would give him is he lived closer. It was given to me. If nothing else though, make one. They're not hard and he seems to do this a lot.

As I stated before, read the case study for the Ryobi lawsuit. If I get time later, I will try to find a link to it. It and the words of the original poster are eerily similar.

After posting last night, I actually tried figuring out if this was a serious post or stirring the pot???


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

While safety is no.1 in any shop not all safety devices are created equally. The best safety device in my shop no matter the tool or operation is that tiny little voice that says* THIS IS GOING TO HURT.*


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## NBeener (Sep 16, 2009)

"Sounds like natural selection to me"

"My 3 yo. has that down."

I'm going to presume that you try to prevent natural selection from harming or killing your three year old. Let's just say that I view my fellow residents of this planet with as much concern and compassion as you view your child.

I hope for the best, but plan for the worst, and I don't wish "natural selection" upon anybody, in a civilized society.

YMMV.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Regardless of our different safety attitudes, and there are many different ones out there, maybe we can agree on one overriding principal, and that is 'SAFETY SHOULD BE THE FIRST CONSIDERATION BEFORE AND DURING ANY WOODWORKING OPERATION'. Now I know that sounds pretty basic, but how many of us actually practice that principal?

I always ask my grandkids the question "what is the most important part of woodworking?" before we begin a project. I've done this ever since they began working with me in the shop to reinforce the idea that SAFETY is the most important. I do this to create the right attitude, actual safety precautions come along with the type of work we are doing.

Most accidents occur when we are not anticipating them and/or not thinking about safety at all. If we had, they most likely wouldn't have occurred.

Another point I haven't seen mentioned here is the benefit of rehearsing a machine operation with the machine turned off to make sure that the movements you plan don't put you in harms way. Hand operations can also be analyzed in a similar way.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I go back to post #37 and agree whole-heartedly. From one who has trimmed my fingernails on the TS in a close call, safety features will really only help you with the unexpected.

Not taking into account carelessness, or, ignorance of proper machine usage, if you do everything "by the book", you may still be surprised from time to time with accidents. It is how you've prepared yourself and your tools which will determine the severity and consequences of that accident.

The hardest guy to convince of the need for proper procedures and safety is the guy whose been doing it improperly for 30 years and still has all his fingers. Even harder when that guy is the production manager who should be setting the example and teaching the younger guys how it should be done properly. Certain as the day is long, the younger, less experienced guy tries to replicate the PM's example and has a catastrophic event.

I've had to clean too much flesh from the saws in my years to tolerate willful neglect of safety procedures in my shop. Just sayin'.


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## lizardhead (Aug 15, 2010)

The hardest guy to convince of the need for proper procedures and safety is the guy whose been doing it improperly for 30 years and still has all his fingers.

I guess that's me--Only it was for 45 years not 30 but the thing you are not getting is that 45 years ago the technology for safety concerns were not in place as they are today. Are old habits hard to break? Maybe maybe not. Have some old timers adapted to the guards-I have not. you can tell me I'm an idiot if you like for not using all that new fangled safety stuff. Some of it is unobtrusive some very obtrusive and I must say that some of the safety stuff is a danger (to me) in itself. Your need to protect me is only based on your coming up in life with safety stuff already in place.
I am not reckless in the shop and around tools, I do have occasional mishaps. I may very well get a finger cut off due to my shop time and I accept that. I say again that I am a motorcyclist, and the dangers of riding are always there, I have had accidents, but I am not going to stop riding, I accept the fact that I may get hurt.

You are familiar with those little packets placed inside of electronic to collect moisture? They say on the packet "DO NOT EAT"-well damn and I was just in the mood for a snack. Some nut must have eaten one of those things, now we must warn the world that they should not be eaten. My take on that is to just let them idiots eat those packets, we don't need them, they are just taking up space that more intelligent folks could use.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

I suspect that even 45 years ago, modern safety gear aside, there were still short cuts that were often taken that were slightly more risky and that were perceived to be more efficient than taking the time to jig up a risky cut in order to reduce the chance of injury, or, accident. That is more what my comments were directed at.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

We have covered the McDonalds "Accident" 
We have covered the Ryobi "Accident" 
This is WOOD related. 
http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/06/bono.accident/ 
Did the surviving family sue the ski resort ? *No*,( it was a hobby that the man had been doing for over 20 years)
Has your congress passed any legistlation preventing this again ?
No.
Life goes on.
(Unfortunate story, as they all are)
This thread is good, it lets people tell about how they take risks and it works for them, they shouldn't be called idiots.
OTHER people state there opinion on HOW SAFE they are.
(The reason I used this example is to illistrate that He died doing what he loved doing…....his HOBBY !)


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

If I'm the one paying your Workman's Compensation premiums, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it another way-you're gonna use a push stick and you're gonna properly jig the saw on risky cuts, or you're gonna find a new job. Seems fair to me.

(Cut your fingers off on your own dime.)


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Here's a couple of interesting safety cases. I hope we at LJ are more careful.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117632/Builder-stuck-floorboard-hours-slipping-firing-inch-nail-HAND.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1064602/Pictured-I-chainsawed-arm-14-hour-op-surgeons-sewed-on.html


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