# Installing new kitchen sink & base cabinet



## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Let me explain something I'm trying to do in my kitchen.

The total counter space I have is 48 inches. Of this, 24 inches are going to be taken up by a stackable washer and dryer (to the immediate left of where the sink will be). The washer and dryer are both 24 inches wide and 67 inches high.

I will then be left with 24 inches to install a sink and cabinet underneath it. For a place to place the dishes, after I wash them, I'm planning on installing a granite or tile shelf above the sink. But to do this I will have to remove the present cabinet and install a smaller one.

So what is the accurate way to explain my situation? Should I say I need a sink that can fit a 24-inch base cabinet? Can I get a cabinet and sink to fit this space?

Does this sound like a plan that can work?


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## GrandpaLen (Mar 6, 2012)

Once you have your stackables in place, measure the length and width of the remaining space available for the sink cabinet and take those measurements to a cabinet shop or your local Big Box home improvement outlet and they will help you.


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## TedW (May 6, 2012)

24" is a standard size. You can get a sink base that size and a sink to fit, at any big box store. You might even get a counter that narrow but I'm not sure on that one, you may have to cut down something larger.

On a related note, install the sink and faucet into the counter 'before' setting it into place. Trust me on that one, it will save you a whole lot of headache.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Everything you want to do is easily done with standard stuff. The only thing I'd question is having dishes stored so close to a washer - if you get an out of balance load or the floor isn't beefy enough your dishes will be chattering and complaining like crazy during the spin cycles.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

24" sink base with false drawer front on top of door. Single bowl 18" drop in SS sink (get a deep one). You're good to go.
Granite shelf is gonna be heavy….real heavy.
Bill


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Good call Bill,
I 'm curious…why tile or granite? Never seen that before. Seems it would be expensive and heavy.

You can see their unfinished sides underneith too. A simple wood shelf with a nosing would be so much easier.

3 ft. wide sink base is the most prefered width in order to get a decent sink size, disposal, water filter, room for plumbing, maybe a garbage can.

Too bad you can't move the washer into a closet or the basement…. Can you? There's your solution.

Good luck with your project.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Folks,

Thanks so much for the welcoming comments and the feedback to my proposed project.

I live in a small condo (535 square feet in total).

dhazelton: In terms of the dishes chattering because of the washer, do you think they will chatter if they're on a shelf?

Bill White: Thanks for suggesting I get an 18" deep stainless steel sink. I'll look for one. I've found one that's 20" wide by 20" long. But I didn't measure how deep it was.

reedwood: The granite for the shelf was just a suggestion. After reading your comments, I think you're right, it will be too heavy. But remember that this sink is for placing a rack to hold washed dishes and water will drip onto it. If it's a wooden shelf won't it get water damage? Unless you're suggesting I coat it with polyurethane. What do you mean by having a shelf with a nosing? Also, What would be the best way to secure a shelf onto the wall? A carpenter had also suggested a tiled shelf. Any other suggestion?

Sorry to sound so stupid.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Thought photo of my kitchen sink might help…


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

Finding a 24" sink base shouldn't be much of a problem. Your issue is going to be finding a sink that you can use without sacrificing almost all of your counter top. You're probsbly looking at some kind of bar sink.

A rack under an upper cabinet should work for stacking clean dishes, bur where will you stack the dirty dishes before you wash them?


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Where the dishes are at the moment is where the stackable washer and dryer will be.

The cabinet above the sink is coming out. The new one will be much shorter, probably 15 or 18 inches high.

The shelf will go above the sink at an appropriat height to be determined.

Is it okay to have the new cabinet go in front of the door frame as the sink cabinet does? If I do this, I would have to remove part of the door frame so that the cabinet can be right up against the wall.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

The picture helps alot to see what your existing conditions are.

Ahah….I see a doorway, a wierd soffit probably hiding something, another door opening!, some very old 60s style cabinets, painted orange, a 4ft. upper cabinet full of stuff - and you plan to replace it with a tiny cabinet that usually goes above a microwave. And, you have oak floors and no toe kick in the old cabinet. (the unfinished floor is going to show in front with the new cabinet)

You have some major issues to address. This is not an easy do it yourself job.

You will have to install a gray box in the wall with a drain line so you're going to need a plumber and maybe an electrian to relocate outlet. Is the dryer gas or electric? How are you going to vent the dryer?

You do know, this unit is probably going to stick out past the 25" counter top about 2 -3 inches and will look ugly from the sides. It's in the middle of the room so it will shake the floor. Have your carpenter check the framing.

I'm still curious if this is your only choice for the washer location. Do you have any other base cabinets/ ctops in the kitchen? Could you relocate the sink? Then you could install units side by side under a 4 ft. counter top and still have a much needed 4ft. upper cabinet above.

The "drying shelf" idea is very wierd. Nevermind the wood shelf if you're going to put wet stuff on it. That's what a drying rack is for on the counter next to the sink like you have already…. are you married?

I wouldn't cover the edge of the door frame anymore than it already is… always good to leave a reveal to help hide imperfections. Plus, c top will extend at least 1/4" past cabinet. Door trim will end on top of back splash.

You are about to spend alot of money doing something that will look really bad and end up ruining your kitchen.

I would strongly suggest building a cabinet for the W/D in the next room or put them in a closet. You're trying to do too much with this space.

Keep asking questions and *get a professional to help you with this one*.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

reedwood: Hi. Thanks for the detailed response. Let me try to answer your questions.

First, I will not be doing this job myself. I'll be getting a carpenter. But I want to have as much info beforehand.

Regarding the toe kick and unfinished wood showing when I get the new cabinet, good point. What if my carpenter sands and puts polyurethane on the unfinished part? I had the same issue when I replaced my ancient gas on gas Magee stove with a modern stainless steel GE one that was not as big. I had 10 inches of unfinished hardwood floor exposed in front of my new stove. I brought in a Vietnamese floor sander last summer and he sanded and put polyurethane on the unfinished wood. The only problem was that the area he sanded appeared lighter than the rest of the floor which was sanded in 2004. But it appears as though the newly sanded area is gradually blending in with the rest of the floor or is it just my imagination?

Regarding the washer/dryer, they are both Miele (http://reviews.ajmadison.com/7421/W3033/miele-front-load-washer-w3033-reviews/reviews.htm and http://reviews.ajmadison.com/7421/T8003/miele-front-load-electric-dryer-t8003-reviews/reviews.htm) which is a high-end German appliance company.

Yes, I will need a plumber to install the washer/dryer.

I have already been to the building inspector's office in my town and know that my plan for the installation is sound.

I already have an electrician who is going to install an outlet and a sub-panel with a circuit for the washer/dryer (right now the electrical box is in the basement. My condo is on the 3rd floor which is the top floor in the building).

The dryer is electric and will vent to the top left of the door on the left of the sink. The area is out of view of the photo. The vent will go into the wall on the left of the area where the dish rack is. Then it go above the door on the left (while still behind the wall) then it will turn left and will be above a kitchen window that is out of view of the photo. Then it will vent outside.

I don't see how the washer/dryer is going to stick out. Both units are 24 inches wide.

Yes, this is the only spot for the washer/dryer.

But I'm planning on creating a new counter area on the opposite side of the kitchen from the sink.

I don't see why the drying shelf is a weird idea. Rather, I'd love to get suggestions as to what to use for this shelf.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

boston guy, I don't know how strong the floor is, but everything in such close proximity may make your dishes clatter. A Miele is high end stuff, so it may not be an issue. I would suggest that you find a cutoff of Corian type material for a shelf. You could always do a flip up type shelf on the right of the cabinet as well so you get more space for whatever (I know the doorway is there, but if it's hinged it might work - make sure when it flips up it overhangs the sink). Dumb question - can you move the entry door so you aren't walking into the work area? That would give you a few extra feet all around and would be an easy project for a carpenter.


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## ssnvet (Jan 10, 2012)

just an fwi…

My plumber (who is a personal friend) was not happy that the kitchen designer we used chose a 24" base cab for the sink/disposal. He got it all in there… but he's a big guy and it's really tight.

*is it just my imagination?*

no… it's real… the wood color changes with exposure to light… this is often desireable and is refered to as the woods "patina". You may be able to stain the newly sanded to match the patina of the older floor area….


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Folks,

Your feedback has been very helpful. I'm learning a lot.

I now want to show you something. Look at the photo below.



The area where my fridge is located is diagonally across from my kitchen sink. I plan to move the fridge to another location. Where the fridge is I plan to install a counter and cabinet underneath. I would also like to install an upper cabinet above the counter. However, look at the wall. It is sloped (this is because I'm on the top floor of the condo building. There's a name for this. Mansard roof? I'm not sure).

Anyway, does the sloped wall mean that I cannot install an upper cabinet? If I can, how would I go about it? Is this something a good carpenter would know how to do? What about the counter cabinet? Should I do anything special due to the slope which will leave a visible gap between the cabinet and the wall when viewed from the side.

I'll really appreciate any feedback!


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Whoever painted the cabinets must be a Tennessee Vol!


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Geeeez, what a project.
Now I see you have slanted walls, two windows set back in a dormer, 1×4 wainscotting and a popcorn ceiling.

Got any dynamite?

I'm betting you can't move the back door - too expensive. Without seeing the other two walls, I'm guessing this is the best place for the fridge - in the corner.

The slant wall clips just above the counter and I'm sure the kitchen is already small so building a new straight wall is not a good idea, rather I would custom build the upper cabinets with the back slanted.

or you could move downstairs and let someone else deal with this cluster muck. Ha!

Good luck man, don't go crazy and spend a fortune on this project. You will move with in 5 yrs and never get the money back.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

The photo below shows where I would like to move the fridge (where the file cabinets are, next to the pantry). The spot is against the same wall as where the fridge is now but to the left. By the way, I plan on getting a stainless fridge to match the stove.



And the photo below shows where the stove is. But this wall is straight. I plan on installing a cabinet above the stove to hold a microwave oven. By the way, notice the floor wood around the bottom of the stove. The previous stove (an ancient gas on gas Magee) was larger so after I sanded the floor underneath last summer and placed the current stove, you can still see where the older stove sat. The rest of the floor was sanded in 2004. It would have been too much work to sand the whole kitchen again.



So the wall against the sink and the wall against the stove are straight. But the other two walls are sloped. That's my kitchen! This is what I have to work with. All suggestions have been greatly appreciated. If you have any other ideas, don't be shy. I'm just trying to make this kitchen work better for me.


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## Richforever (Mar 19, 2008)

I'd agree with others. A custom cabinet with a 3/4" plywood back that is sloped to fit next to the wall, strongly attached to the sides and screwed in multiple locations into studs in the sloped wall.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

If there are studs in that sloped wall you can screw a cabinet to it, pack out the bottom and make end panels to hide it all. Lower looks like no problem at all. I think a diagram drawn out to scale would help more than pictures of one wall at a time as I can't tell how big the room is or where windows / doors are.

And do you own this space? Moving an exterior door in a stud framed house is not that big of a deal.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

Dhazelton, Wrapping a standard cabinet would possibly work if you used 1/4" veneers and had enough reveal on the existing cabinet stile but it would take alot more time than just building new cases - and you still have to finish it to match the front.

I do like the idea of a square box so you can adjust the shelves but it looks like it would bump the uppers out almost 4 inches. Might not be a problem except over a sink or stove. Hmmmm…. 6 or half a dozen kinda deal.

As a cabinetmaker I'd start from scratch and slant the back, lock in the shelves and maintain the standard 12" setback from the lowers so it doesn't feel "top heavy".

Isn't it funny how everytime a client sees a hidden space they want us to figure out how to make use of it somehow. Ha!.... like a hidden spice rack! that pulls down and pivots and rotates then a light turns on and everyone says, that's Cool!

Yea, sure I can do that - for 400.00 ….. uh, nevermind) I digress. Where were we?

Bostondude said it was a third floor condo with a mansard roof so I'll bet they may have a problem with anyone changing the semetry of the exterior, right BG? hey, what is your name?

Huge expense considering what his budget must be. But your right…it may be worth considering. I wish I could see more.

Do I see a closet/ pantry? Why can't you put the W/D in there? You might even be able to hide it behind a door.

One more thing….a 24" tall X 30" cabinet above the stove with a 30" vented microwave will look too narrow by itself considering the amount of space you have (4ft.?) so I imagine you could add 36" tall x 9" cabinets on each side which would help hide the sides of the MW….. follow? (VIF - verify in field)

If your replacing the fridge anyway, reverse the door and install fridge on the left side by the closet, next to the Plumb wall. Big difference! You'll gain 4" of base cabinet length - right? note: side by side fridges need more room.

That's it…. we're coming over tonight. Where do you live and, do you have beer? Ha! Ha! JK


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi again,

You guys have been really helpful. Something occurred to me. Before I respond to your questions, I'm providing a side view of my wall (below). It will help to give you an idea of the angle of the slope.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

I didn't realize how close the closet was to the wall. The fridge would block it so, nevermind about moving it there.

Tough call on this project. Hopefully, your carpenter can come up with a workable plan but it seems like all the upper cabinets will have to be custom made to fit slanted wall. Open shelves might work and would be the cheapest way to go. keep it simple and don't go crazy with your budget. Now you know what to look out for on your next house. NO MORE SLANTED WALLS IN THE KITCHEN!
I'd fix the floor finish when you're done remodeling or you will have to give a full credit or fix it when you sell. Now it looks really bad and distracts from all your hard work.

Well, it's been fun trying to help out with ideas. I wish you the best.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Folks,

I was at a local pub, sipping away. The guy next to me introduces himself as being from Ireland. Guess what he does for a living? Yes, he's a carpenter.

Of course, I had to explain to him my kitchen cabinets challenge with the sloped wall.

His take? Don't get custom-made cabinets or have regular cabinets cut. Rather, just use regular but nice cabinets BUT devise a shimming device with wood. I will have to experiment with different sizes of wood. Eventually, I'll find the right size. The shims will get the cabinets level (use a laser level, he strongly advised). Then screw in the cabinets to the wall, making sure to secure the shims which will be behind the cabinets at the bottom and not sticking out on the edges. Then cover the triangular gap (when cabinets are viewed sideways) and the shims with pieces of the same kind of wood as the cabinets, and have them cut to the exact shape.

Do you get what I'm talking about? To me, it sounds like a crafty idea.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

boston_guy, let me start by saying that I myself have had some great ideas in the bar with a few pints in me. Often the next day, well they don't always ring true. You have a file cabinet up against that sloping wall, about 24" deep? It blocks the door, granted the base cabinet would be about 3/4 of that height and push back a bit further. Now hang a standard wall cabinet, by any method, likely you would have the cabinet fronts almost directly in a vertical line. I really believe the resultant countertop work area would be sort of a dark tunnel.
Your Irish buddy the carpenter had a good plan for a unit that is slightly off plumb but did you mention that the wall runs out over 2' for an 8' rise?

You might want to consider a floor to ceiling cabinet / shelving unit and a couple of pull out countertops if you need some temporary prep area. I know it is your place but I think you might want to do a google sketchup or simple cad drawing with real and accurate measurements to help visualize the end result before you try to stick standard cabinets in a non-standard space.

If you want you could take some measurements, say check the door molding for reasonable plumb, then measure from the bottom corner of the molding to the base of the sloping exterior wall. Then measure up to the top of the molding and straight across to the exterior wall. then locate the vertical wall, sloping wall, and the ceiling corner. Now go on the net and find the dimensions of those regular but nice cabinets you want to use and get their measurements. Someone might be able to draw up a simple if not too accurate visualization for you. I say not too accurate because it really depends on accurate linear measurements and angles if it is even close to working. If I get back to this page in time, I will try to do a simple rendering, nothing real fancy, just to give you an idea of what your end product will be looking like.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

casual1carpenter,

Please excuse my poor photography skills. The picture I provided earlier gave the wrong impression of the area I'm planning to move the fridge. It made it look as though the fridge will block the pantry entrance. There is actually enough space. Below is are 2 photos which may give you a better sense of the space. The wall actually extends another 8 inches to the right (in the second photo) before the window starts. When I downloaded it here the window got cropped off.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

Uh, pretty sure I said what Irish guy said…..

If your upper cabinet is 30 inches tall, you hold a 4 ft level against the wall and hold it plumb. Then measure down 30 inches, and measure the gap to the wall. That's roughly how much you need to pack out the bottoms. It's not hard and you don't need to figure out any angles or math.

You could also frame out a new wall and make it plumb, but you'll loose a few inches of floor space. If you chop into the wall at the top you could do it in 2X3s sistered onto the roof/wall joists. Gotta pick your poison


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi folks,

Still on my kitchen cabinet project (refacing used cabinets then installing them).

Progress so far: I have sanded down the cabinet oak fronts. I have painted the insides white. I'm getting new doors and drawers.

I received the oak veneer which I will install on the cabinet sides then stain it. Here's the problem. The veneer came in 2 large sheets. Each is 4' by 8'. I'm using a 40" metal ruler and a snap blade utility knife to cut the veneer. As a test, I've so far only cut 2 small pieces for the above oven cabinet since it's the smallest cabinet.

After cutting the veneer and I place it on the cabinet's sides (without the Weldwood contact cement just to see how it looks), I notice that it is not lining up exactly with the edge of the cabinet front. If you look carefully, you can see some slender spaces between the veneer and cabinet front wood. Do you know what I mean?

Is there a trick to having the veneer line up exactly with the cabinet front? Or is this impossible? Am I not cutting it properly? Or could it be that the front wood itself is not perfectly straight? It looks pretty straight to me.


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

This is a side view of the above microwave cabinet.

I want to cover up the fake veneer that's on it right now with real unfinished oak veneer.

I'm referring to the side on the right, next to the wood for the cabinet front.

I cannot over size on that side because of the wood that sticks above the surface of the veneer. Do you see what I mean?








http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/coolstripedbass/IMG_2311_zpsdac7b01d.jpg[/IMG[/URL]]


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Folks,

You probably don't recall my challenge. I needed to install an upper and bottom kitchen cabinet against a sloped wall.

This is what a local handyman built me last week (see photo above). The frame is for the upper cabinet. Does it make sense to you? He says that I can install sheetrock around the framing. Or can you think of a better way to hide the framing?


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The cabinets can be made to conform to the slope of the wall, but a cabinet maker will probably charge a lot to do it. Store bought cabinets are not made for such a sloping condition.

One possibility for the sink situation: I don't like the idea, but you could turn the sink 90° CCW and use a 36" cabinet. I don't know if standing in way of the doorway would work, but I mention it never-the-less.

In your first picture, it looks like the floor is sloping away, because of the sill of the door.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The frame for the upper cabinet will work, but that will mean the cabinet will stick out more and become a head knocker. BTW, I think there are more Irish in Boston than in Ireland. I used to live there, but I'm only half Irish.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

One thing you could do is to knock out the wall and door for the pantry; square up the space and put your refrigerator there. Small specially shaped spaces can be built for storing small items. This is quite a challenging project. I lived in an old house in Boston over 50 years ago and had pretty much the same odd conditions you face. I wasn't as woodworking savvy then, so I didn't try to change it. I stayed 4 years and moved on.


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## matermark (Sep 16, 2014)

Whatever became of this kitchen? Shelves instead of cabinets?


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

Funny you should ask. The cabinets have not gone up yet.

Just had new plumbing for the new kitchen sink, washer and dryer. Then new blue board was installed over the plumbing.

But now the new electrical switch boxes have to moved forward a bit so that they can be flush with the new blue board on one of the kitchen walls.

This project has taken forever!



> Whatever became of this kitchen? Shelves instead of cabinets?
> 
> - matermark


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## boston_guy (Jul 7, 2012)

I finally got my cabinets installed. In particular, I managed to get the upper cabinet that was going on the sloped wall installed! I had really agonized on how I would get this done.

We rigged a new bracket for the cabinet that did not take up too much space. It attached the cabinet to the wall at the bottom. At the top, we simply screwed the cabinet into the studs behind the wall.

My question: the bracket is indented behind the cabinet by 1/2" on one side and 3/8" on the other side. I need to cover the back space so that the bracket does not show. What can I use? I was thinking that maybe I can cut out a triangular piece of red oak plywood and stain it the same color as the cabinet. I know that there's 1/2 thick plywood but can you get it 3/8" thick? I still have the same stain left over. Or maybe someone has a better idea.

The two photos below show how it was installed.


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