# Avoiding tyre kickers



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

At the time of writing of this, I'm about 80% through preparing a website for my business.

I am quite pleased with what I've done so far, been through the archives, got (nearly) all the photos and started writing copy.

What I'm really concerned with is 'tyre kickers'. You know the ones - someone here described them as 'champagne taste but soda pop budget'.

As my work is all commissions, is there a way to avoid going out to meet people with unreal expectations about cost?

Realistically, you could waste a day between driving to and from someone's house, discussing a job, measuring, phoning around for material and hardware costs, doing up a drawing and estimate, only to get no response or be told they'll leave it.

Is there a way around this? How do you deal with it?

I am really trying to get to another level and go a bit more upmarket, this is the copy I've written about commissioning work:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Commissions usually begin with a phone call and a meeting to discuss the requirements and your expectations of the piece.

The style and function, timber and finish choices, and hardware options will all be noted and dimensions taken.

With this information, I can prepare an initial drawing and email it to you for review, along with an estimate of how much the project is going to cost.

It is quite normal to make a few changes before design sign off, and there is never any pressure to rush a design through. After all, the whole point of commissioning a piece is so you end up with exactly what you want.

Once a design is approved I can use the drawing to work out the cost of materials, how long the piece will take to make and finish, and give a firm quotation.

If the design and quotation meet with your approval, I would require a 30% deposit before commencing any work.

While the piece is being made I can keep you updated with photos and progress reports, and upon completion will arrange a convenient time for delivery/installation.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think that says it all or would you make any changes?

Thanks in advance


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Unfortunately this is a risk you'll probably always face unless you can get a reputation that keeps the wealthy collector types headed your way all the time.

If you notify people up front about your prices, you'll scare away potential customers before you get the chance to sell them on your services. The idea is to show them the benefits they can obtain by hiring you and why those benefits are worth the price you're asking. You don't want them simply comparing the prices of your products to those offered by the stores. They need to start thinking about stuff like customized functionality, design aesthetics, customer service and convenience.

It is a good idea however, to make sure people understand up front that you aren't going to be selling at chain store prices to scare off the worst offenders. If they don't bat an eye upon hearing this they might be feasible customers.

Take a cue from insurance salesmen. Whenever I ask them how the prices of different packages compare to each other they invariably start talking about how different policies are offering different levels of coverage.

My own approach has been to factor in the wasted time as overhead. Then I just do my best to minimize the impact by getting really fast at estimating and design work.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Have you thought about a consultation fee that would be incorporated (deducted) from the price of the commission?
Bill


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Ballparking the job over the phone is a good skill to have.

I usually ask "have you had custom work done before?"

Sometimes there's a lot of educating to be done, and at the
end of the process they decide not to buy from you. I talked
some people out of having me build a pergola because I
was up front about the maintenance.

If they can get it at a big box store, you might want to 
ask them why they didn't do that. Some people do
have an idea that somebody could build a one-off and
beat the big retailers. It's not an informed idea, but it's
there. Some people who can afford custom work
have it too. They know the big box store doesn't
fit their needs, which is why they generally call a
custom shop.

Do not second-guess price flexibility. People will ask
you to knock-off furniture pieces you cannot do
for the price of the wood alone…. but the people
who go and look at real quality furniture will be
familiar with the price ranges. Sometimes you can
save them some money because you're not marking
it up 100% as stores tend to do. Sometimes you
can do a simpler finish or eliminate unwanted details.

You can always ask "what's your budget range on this?"

In the end you're going to have to quote a fee. There
is no point in pussy-footing around the issue of costs.

Some people have a lot of money but they will try to
bust you on principle. Sometimes that's how they got
a lot of money in the first place. These are customers
who will pay for quality.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Charge them to come out


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

I agree with Loren. Always ask for their budget range upfront.

If the budget number comes in too low then explain why your custom work is higher then their expectations.

Another thought is to limit your time on the upfront-work i.e., ... before-money-gets-exchanged-process, for a new customer… I would target 1 hour or so before a $ deposit is made.

I do like your website idea, something I have never done done ,but another thought is to include a price range on the projects you post… or possibly a square foot $ amount for large projects. ...


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## Fish22 (Nov 16, 2009)

If you have pictures of your previous work, and that was something that prompted them to call, you could give them a ballpark figure of cost on the previous project. Getting the maximum information on that initial call, and being upfront about the process, cost and what goes into the project should help weed out some of the tire kickers. Educating people on why a mass produced piece costs less and the sometimes inferior materials used in those pieces probably wouldn't hurt either.


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## lanwater (May 14, 2010)

Nothing beat the face to face meeting. Most of the time that's when the customer make up their mind as to if they can trust you or not.
Remember they are very scared to hire someone they don't know, they worry they are going to be scammed. Meeting face to face alleviate many concerns. Once they are comfortable with you, They will pay a little more because they feel secure.

Wee work with some customers for more than 3 months, informing and educating them for free. Sometimes we do not get the job but most of the time they refer other people to us. 
Nothing beat referral. 
We do not do woodworking.


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## j1212t (Dec 7, 2013)

As a custom solution salesperson I can relate to what you are facing and I will say, that educating a customer 'for free' will be a big part of your job, at least until you start working referrals only. Once you get to referrals only your life can be a bliss or a nightmare, because obviously high end customers will refer you to high paying customers and the opposite is true also. Cheap customers lead to cheap referrals. But that means that you might have to turn down a lot of customers in the beginning until you wade through the BS, because you really don't want to have previous projects on your homepage that cost 200$ while you are trying to sell a 4000$ vanity.

Keeping that in mind, I think educating your customer and qualifying a customer is just what you could call a part of your pipeline and think of it as paying forward. I would not pay for a consult, before knowing anything about the end result, and neither would most other people. Qualifying a customer means that you need to know if they have the money you ask, otherwise it does not matter how good of a salesperson you are, they just can't buy. A simple qualifying question over the phone could be "So why did you decide to go for a custom-made piece" (2 key things that should be done in the first conversation by phone, 1: Make sure to convey the idea that *you are not a box store* So you will be more expensive. 2: Have them shortly sell *their need *for a custom-piece to you)

In addition, as previously stated, you should really meet a customer face to face. People like to buy from people they like and a lot gets lost in terms of a personal touch when business is conducted by phone only. After you have established a relationship this is no longer necessary, but initially 1-3 meetings might be required to have them trust you and be willing to buy.

As far as the text goes, there is a few key things that I would change, see the sentences I would change with comments:

With this information, I *will* prepare an initial drawing and email it to you for review, along with an estimate of how much the project is going to cost.

- I prefer a firmer approach when putting things in writing, I CAN do a lot of things, that doesn't mean I WILL do them. But once I have been on the phone, met with the customer discussed everything about the project and I have qualified that they have the money, I WILL make a sketch for them, because making things visual for the customer helps me sell better.

Once a design is approved I *will* use the drawing to work out the cost of materials, how long the piece will take to make and finish, and give a firm quotation.

- Same applies as the explanation above

If the design and quotation meet with your approval, *I require *a 30% deposit before commencing any work.

- Definitely take away the *would* from the deposit. If a deposit is what is required, it has to be required, if you have *would* in there, it can and will give an illusion that this is negotiable, but it should not be negotiable, after all the energy you have put in there, you need to get a deposit. Especially since people sometimes get buyers remorse and you don't want to have invested 1000$ and have them jump ship. In fact I would reccomend: *If the design and quotation meet with your approval then depending on the work I will require a 30-50% deposit before commencing any work* - This is a good thing to have, because then you can comfortably get 35-40% of a deposit, because some people like to get a discount and if you always start at 50% deposit you can meet them half way at 40% Additionally, this is the last qualifying step before starting work. If they want to buy a 1000$ Piece of furniture and they don't have 300$ to pay you up front, then how will they have 1000$ in 4 weeks?

While the piece is being made I *will* keep you updated with photos and progress reports, and upon completion will arrange a convenient time for delivery/installation.
- Same applies as in first 2 can vs will explanations

By the way, only subtitute 'can' with 'will' if you are willing to do these things, meaning that if you promise that you will do something you will do it. I wrote more about that in one of our fellow LJ blog response here

I could go on a lot longer into sales psychology and techniques while selling with integrity, but I don't have the time now, if you have any specific questions send me a PM or ask me here and I will try to be of use.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

It's called pre-qualifying and you have to do it. Ask questions like, "What is your budget? What time frame are you expecting." I've learned that if someone won't tell you their budget it's either because they don't have one (always a bad sign) or because they are afraid you'll take advantage and mark your prices up. The latter can be overcome but if they have no budget there is a good chance you'll waste your time.

Where I grew up there was a local cabinetmaker and architectural woodworker who was very talented and past retirement age. I sat on his porch with him sipping lemonade one day when a 30-something fellow came by to ask for a quote. "I don't do quotes anymore and I'll be too expensive for you anyway." Well that just egged the younger guy on so finally this woodworker says, "... take your highest quote and multiple by four, that'll put you in my ballpark." Well the more this old timer tried to put off the customer the more the customer wanted to hire him. It was absolutely a treat to watch. I think it ended with him agreeing to send his son out to see the job. Even funnier is he pulled the same crap on me first time I met him.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

Once upon a time, a long time ago, my company wrote and sold shrink-wrapped software.
Of course, people were always contacting us to write something bespoke for them - and, in theory, we were happy to do that.

The policy *we* developed to avoid "the talkers", was to require that *they* do things before we'd enter into much of a conversation, and certainly before we'd arrange any visits. In our case, the very first thing we'd require was that *they* write some form of specification document. In about 90% of cases people were happy to talk on the phone but, when asked to commit finger to keyboard, we never heard from them again. The 10% remaining would have a document returned by us, with some initial drafts, possibly some form of price, requiring a *further* response from them. Down to about 5% now, those people usually ended up ordering, paying, and being very happy.

Perhaps a custom woodworking version might include them sending you pictures of pieces, the style of which they like. Perhaps a rough drawing of the piece they have in mind, and where the piece is destined to go. You can probably come up with better ideas - as long as it involves *them* in doing some actual work beyond just chatter.

"Commissions usually begin with a phone call and a meeting to discuss the requirements and your expectations of the piece."
This doesn't, in my view, make it hard enough for them - you're going to spend a bunch of hours on a project that might never happen - they need to spend some too, *first*, and not over a cup of coffee.

Just an idea based on my experience from another industry.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

I'll offer a little different perspective on this. While I certainly agree with most that has already been offered, there can also be value in simply telling it like it is - you produce high-quality pieces, and your prices reflect that high quality. There are people who will be attracted to that - not very many but, once you have them, they will be long-term, repeat customers. And they will provide to you the most valuable prize of all; world-of-mouth advertising to their like-minded friends.


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## kajunkraft (May 7, 2012)

One explanation that I use is that I have been looking for one of those machines that you put a tree into one end and a few seconds later a piece of furniture comes out the other. Unfortunately I have never found that machine. So, all my work involves making each piece of wood needed, selecting, cutting, sanding, assembling, etc. This takes time and I believe that my effort is worth more than third-world labor rates. In addition to the many valid comments already made, this may help to put things into real-world perspective.


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## dodahman (Jun 12, 2012)

Once a design is approved I can use the drawing to work out the cost of materials, how long the piece will take to make and finish, and give a firm quotation.

While we making suggestions, may I suggest in the above paragraph you change the word "make" to "create"

*Once a design is approved I can use the drawing to work out the cost of materials, how long the piece will take to create and finish, and give a firm quotation.*

peace, T


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

After a phone conversation to roughly qualify the scope of the project without going into specifics, suggest that they visit you to start the detail process. That should eliminate most of the tire kickers.


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## LeeBarker (Aug 6, 2010)

Something about this question brought out a batch of great wisdom. It is exciting to read how LJs from other industries can insert their experience into this realm and applies really well.

I have always shied away from ballpark estimates-my explanation being that, "If I do that, one of us will end up with a broken heart and I don't want that to happen." I would rather make the initial visit. That said, I'm learning from reading this that developing a skilled style of qualifying the client on the phone, and offering that estimate range heavily weighted to the high end, would be better than what I have done.

Offering a range of anything has risk involved, and here's why: The listener will hear only the number that he/she prefers. If you read that your new Gizmotron 2000 "will ship in three to six weeks" what number do you start computing with in your head?

Therefore, my only suggestion is to say "A 50% deposit is required for me to start work (or to get you on my schedule)." If the project was destined to cross the first of the month and of a length that would justify it, I would write in "progress payments due on the 10th of each month."

Thanks to the OP and all who contributed here. This is golden.

Kindly,

Lee


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

One thing you can do is assess the sorts of projects people
in your area inquire about and prepare some sample
invoices and put those out there. People can be 
pretty naive about how things are made by artisans
and may think you're asking for a big pile of money
in exchange for cutting boards up and banging nails.
As we are learning, woodworking to a high standard
requires a lot of organization and familiarity with
every step in the process. While sometimes people
have seen a guy make something on TV, they edit
out all the tedium on those shows so there's a
warped perception of the time involved.

Even if you haven't done the sort of job before, you can 
manage to put a rendering or other picture on your site
and give a price range. You can even break it down
according to the type of wood and finish. As we know,
it takes a lot more time to sand some woods than others
and customers who have never done much woodworking
don't grasp that unless it is explained somehow.

I have a document I work on sporadically explaining
qualitative, functional and price differences of different
styles of drawers and slides. Obviously it's best to
have a showroom but you could make a 1/2 size
sample cabinet or something like that which you'd 
take when looking at casework jobs.

So, you can break out the variables on the website…


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## CL810 (Mar 21, 2010)

From a consumer's point of view if someone asked me what my budget was, that means to me that negotiations have started and my budget is low. I'd be very reluctant to give my actual budget for fear of setting myself up for being taken advantage of.

I like the suggestions of price ranges associated with the pictures of past projects. Since it's custom work I would know I couldn't hold someone to that exact price, but I would have a much better idea if I could afford the work.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

I try to create a CAD model an provide a print for them before I go ahead. I have only had one reluctant customer when the final cost was disclosed but when he saw the final product he pie in full.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

*For me*, From the moment I take the call it's a feeling out process. Was it a referral? By who? What do they want built? Do they have a designer or architect involved? 
I usually devote the time it takes to go to the house and talk about the job. That's time I won't get back but I will add money to the bid to make up for it.
Before I go to the home I look it up on the county assessor's office to see where it is and get some clues about what income bracket they may be in. When I get there, I'm looking at their house, cars, furniture, etc. etc. 
By this point I'm already making decisions whether I want to do the job and if I think I'm going to be able to charge enough and have them pay it. 
Now during the meeting I do more of a feeling out process. I talk about the unit costs. Telling them that I can use nice undermount guides, fancy Blum motion soft close hinges. Basic hardware? Do they want hardwood or melamine? Basic wood choices or exotic veneers. Taking in consideration their answers I have already developed a sense for how much they might be willing to spend. Now I have a foundation to determine how much future time I'm going to devote to getting this job. If the above answers don't leave me confident I may tell the client what kind of price range we could be looking at and see if there still interested. I have been doing this a long time and have a good feel for what a unit might cost so I'm comfortable giving ranges to see what the clients reaction is. Through all the conversation by this time I have a good vision of what kind of price I'm going to be able to charge.
But to answer the question on how to weed out the tire kickers, I don't think I can without spending the time to at least go to the job and talk with them.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

50% deposit up front! That is what I required when I built custom fishing rods. If they crawfish on you, then you have at least covered the materials. Lowe's gets 100% payment up front on anything ordered that is not in stock.


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## j1212t (Dec 7, 2013)

So many good points in this topic.
Kevin made about going tot he customer to feel them out better, I always like a personal touch, because one look at their IKEA furniture or a house furnished with 18th century antiques will give you a lot more information than an hour long conversation on the phone will do.
Knothead's post was really good as well. It is good to remind us of these things, everyone else gets 100% pre-payment, why shouldn't we.

After that it is all about price build up, which is what it comes down to. In my field of business, I like to start from way up the scale, if I know that a custom built server room cabinet will cost about 800-1200$, if a customer wants to know the price right off the start (before discussing any materials, requirements etc) I will give them a crazy high price. e.g. - "Well, depending on exactly what you need, it can cost anywhere from 3000 to 7800$... (Take a pause for a few seconds)... But I don't think we need these kind of extra special solutions here, so realistically I would think we are looking at a price range of less than 2000$, but that depends on exactly what you need. (Take a 2 second pause) SO what kind of form/fit/function do you need?


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## realcowtown_eric (Feb 4, 2013)

nowhere in the land of woodbutchery, is their any mention of the art and skill of salesmanship! Site visit is mandatory, as a friend says, "you can tell a lot about a person from the way they live!"

And you cannot do that over the phone. If you try to, you are doomed….If you do it by text, you are not only doomed, but totally f**ked. The simple job on phone or text may be on the 5th floor of a walk-up where parking is scarce and costs you wickedly' and they've given you dates when the elevators are down.

Don't ask me how I know…...

Eric


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

When somebody calls to inquire about a shoe rack,
there's the question of whether a house call is worth
the time.

One can specialize in casework and deal with homeowners
remodeling and then house calls are part of the territory
and often justified by the lineal size of the job, which is 
already known over the phone.

In terms of the smaller things in solid woods… well, there's
the question of how you want to build your portfolio and
where you want to end up. I'll tell you for sure I don't
want to be crawling around on my knees doing cabinet
installs when I am 50, but that's me.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond to this, there's some very good points.

From my own experience I know anyone who starts a meeting with "I'd like to get this done if it is doesn't cost too much" is going to be a tough sell, or just a pita. I've heard that from your average Joe and people with a quarter mile driveway.

In the past I have asked if someone has a budget in mind for their job - they are invariably cagey with their response, like they automatically expect me to come in right at the higher end.

A consultancy or call out fee would be great - but that doesn't sit well with people, so I'm not going go that route.

The projects page on the website will contain a broad range of jobs, so the best thing to do is ask if what they are looking for is similar to anything they can see there - and use that to give a ball park figure before making any arrangements to visit. Some of it will be easy, I've done a few sliding wardrobes for instance that I can price by the bay or metre in maple or walnut, etc, shutters too would be easy to work out by the m2.

I've had people thrust torn out pages from Homes & Interiors magazines at me before as well, these are people who have already fallen in love with the idea of getting 'this' put 'there' - so I don't think there's any harm in asking them to scan in what they want and email it to me with rough dimensions, or for the tech savvy ones to take a photo of where a piece is going and send that to me.

I'm not expecting to be inundated with enquiries, I'm hoping just to gain a few good clients who want nice involved work with repeat business, hopefully putting the above into practice will cut down on wasted time going to view things that are likely never going to happen.

Thanks as well to everyone commenting on the copy, I have a bit of tweaking to do and will incorporate changes as per your suggestion.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

I learned that just because you don't get the job, it doesn't mean you don't have a new reference.

Several times I've gotten jobs from an estimate and drawings I did for their friend. They had no clue how expensive it was until I showed them. I might not have gotten the job but I left a good impression and created a salesman for my company. I knew five minutes in to the interview they weren't going to bite so I made it a social call and an opportunity to practice without pressure.

It's as if they really liked me but felt bad that I spent the time to do the estimate and wanted to find me work!

I think 50% down is rude and unnecessary- unless it's a small project. If you don't trust them from the start then how can you trust them with the final payment?

the rough draft of your copy is wordy and should be reduced 25%. Too many commas. People don't read this stuff.


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## Woodendeavor (Apr 7, 2011)

Here is a small sales tactic I have used with great success. I will go to the customer for the first site visit for free. After talking to them about what they need and how I can help fill their need I have a small contract that I like to pull out called a professional services agreement. This contract states to the customer that I am going to charge them for my design time but the drawings and material lists that I create will be theirs that they can take to other people to get prices from. This has kept me from getting some nightmare customers who want caviar on a McDonalds budget. I have been told that it puts a very professional relationship in motion from customers and I have built 80% of the projects that I have designed with this method


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

When people don't want to tell me their budget I tell them, "If your budget is $2500 then I'm going to spend all $2500 but you'll get $2500 worth in return, not $2400, not $2600; so if you want to spend less then set your budget lower." Sometimes this gets a few chuckles, sometimes not, but I don't like wasting time with people who want me to guess what they want and how much they want to pay. Custom work is not a poker game.


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## Kelby (Oct 19, 2011)

On your website, post pictures of your past projects and how much you charged for them. People will quickly get a sense of whether your work will fit their budget.

One thing that caught my eye about your write-up: You tell people you will e-mail them drawings. If you do that, some people will shop your drawings to other builders. You spend time designing the piece, and the customer pays someone else to build it. If possible, bring your drawings to them when you visit them, and don't leave the drawings with them until they sign a contract and place a deposit.


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## DanYo (Jun 30, 2007)

Kelby
I got bit on a potential customer taking my design drawing and getting it made by someone cheaper. 
No longer will I supply a dimensioned dwg to a customer without a deposit.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Good point Kelby, I hadn't planned on giving dimensions on any drawings and I think you can set permissions in Adobe Acrobat to view only and not print for the .pdf.


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## bladedust (Mar 12, 2012)

Having been in sales most of my life, I can honestly tell you there is no way to eliminate them completely. However, you can minimze them dramatically by having an extended conversation with them on the phone BEFORE you go see them. Some of the questions I would ask is what is the item they're looking to purchase/transform, what kind of material they had in mind, their idea of the scpoe/size of the object and most impotantly, what is their budget. Just have a casual conversation to asertain their mindset. I hope this helps.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

"Some of the questions I would ask is what is the item they're looking to purchase/transform,"
I think that's pretty much a given.

"what kind of material they had in mind"
Customer doesn't always know, I would discuss that in person. That's one of the methods to determine what there willing to pay. You tell them they can have Walnut/(X) or Alder/(Y) for less, if they stick with X, you know they're willing to spend the money.

"and most importantly, what is their budget?"
I'm always trying to get that info, never have had much luck. 
People don't want to say because their afraid if they are too high that's what you'll charge. 
I certainly *WOULD NOT ask them on the phone* before even meeting with them.

When someone calls me to do work the only thing I want to know at that time is what they want me to build. 
If I'm interested at that point I prefer to set a time to talk to them in person about everything else. 
This is where your salesmanship comes in, NOT over the phone. 
Making an appointment to meet with them shows your willingness to do the work right off the bat. 
In my position (been fortunate in this way) 90+% comes from referrals. 
The major portion of my clients are well off so when I get a referral I can usually count that they run in the same circles and can usually afford what they are asking for. 
It's more important that they meet me and like me, selling the job comes easy after that. 
(such a charming personality )


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## bladedust (Mar 12, 2012)

Kevin, when you have a steady stream of referrals form the same affluant community, I agree with you. The game changes and asking them their budget can be insulting to them. They have an idea how much the person who referred them spent and are comfortable with it. They have already seen your work and appreciate the quality. In other words, there aint much selling left to to be done. That's why they're called warm leads. When you're starting out and have not established a name, the game is entirely different. People have no idea who you are, what you are like and what your pricing is like. You can drive yourself absolutely bonkers (been there, done that) going from one useless appointment to another. The term salespeople call to see if the appointment will potentially yield a sale or referral is "qualifying". Yes, by asking very simple and poignant questions through a relaxed conversation and getting a feel for their mindset (without being overt), you are qualifying them. And by doing so, you are (in a subtle way) letting them know your time is valuable, just as theirs is and you would rather not waste either's.


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## 111 (Sep 2, 2013)

I understand what your saying and I see your point, but asking how much their willing to pay, on the phone, in my opinion sends them a wrong message.

Even when I started out I never asked about their budget on the phone. 
Now don't get me wrong, I still, even today, try to get that info out of them, just not on the first date.

I guess we all have our own methods based on our own experiences.

Maybe we just agree to disagree on that point.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Streamlining/organizing your business will help with your bidding process. You have to have as much info as you can when you go to a bid. Market prices for materials, time frame availability, a good idea on how long a job will take you, visual references of similar jobs. 
I would say it isn't the customers problem it takes you a day to make a bid. You can't ask yourself how much can I put on the customer to make it easier for me. You have to ask yourself how can I organize my company to minimize my bidding time.

You should be able to give a bid within 10% on either side before you leave, of course depending on the size of the job. If it's that big then the time spent is well worth it.

I had an electrician come to one of my renos, he was in and out of the house in 45 mins. with quote in my hand. Same with the roofer and Tile guy. If he comes in with in 10% of his bid and does a good job, I'll use him again. If I had a contractor ask me what my budget was I would tell them to go stick it up somewhere dark. Yeah right, I have a 10K budget and go figure that is exactly what its going to cost.

You should be able to access the likelihood of getting the job before you leave and adjust the time spent trying to get the job… 
I'm not sure how far you have to drive to bid your jobs, but that is the best way to determine the likelihood of getting the job. In time you should be able to ask a few questions and decide if the job is even worth going to bid.

Anyways just my 2 Cents. worth about nothing


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Your stuff is good enough, Renners, to target market to architects
and interior designers. I recommend focusing on architects because
they often have actually built furniture and know what goes into it.

If you want to do casework and stair railings and things like that,
you can market to contractors.

Be persistent. Send them postcards with pictures of work on it. 
Call them up and ask if they have a woodworking job they want
a bid on.

Now there is a question of business ethics which is that you don't
poach a client. You can market direct to clients like you're proposing
to do with the site, and that's okay, bit a lot of nonsense goes
on with client prospects who are both inexperienced in having
work done and on the borderline of not being able to afford it.


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## KnickKnack (Aug 20, 2008)

…and I think you can set permissions in Adobe Acrobat to view only and not print for the .pdf

None of those possible protections are, in my experience, very hard to crack.
If someone wants to print your protected document, they'll find a way, or they'll find someone who can do it for them.
Just printing a screen shot is an almost instantaneous way around that particular "protection".


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