# pricing work



## snowgoer (Feb 5, 2011)

I saw a post this morning that struck a nerve. The guy went on to say that he saw an item somewhere and was unwilling to throw down the bucks to by it. I know we are all do it/make it yourself people , so I am not questioning his motives. My question is, after someone exclaims how beautiful my project is, that I just spent two or three days working on, they think it's ok to offer me $100. I know about cost analysis and my be I'm slow.
But that kind of treatment "hurts my feelings" How about you?


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't let someone "offer" me something. I put a price on my items. If they want custom made then they will pay.

Many years ago I did the local craft shows, and generally (not the upscale ones) required pricing in the 20-50 range to sell. Luckily my skills have progressed, and my attitude is that I'm not working for free. If you want my wares at my price great!

I even gave a gent that ordered two big pieces from me a discount. But if you don't then fine move along won't hurt my feelins.

Now if they try to compare my cost to Ikea, then i won't be doin business with them with the walmart mentality anyway. I guess I've officially become a curmudgeon. Have a good one!


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

snowgoer
This kind of thing is brought on by woodworkers who say there in business but charge 10% less than what they paid for the material they used for the items they sell. I guess they are fooling themselves into thinking they are professional woodworkers.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

I would ask them to respond "If you spent xx hours designing, building and finishing this product, how much would you charge for your efforts?"

I agree with bonesbr549, put a fair price on the goods and stand behind it.


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

Agreed to the above, and it's not just in the wood crafting trade either, people meet me through family, church etc. and ask if I cater and I tell them straight out, "you can't afford me", because A) I do hate that aspect of the business after several years of it and B) they either have no idea what the true costs are or respect the fact that the reason why my prices are SO much higher than a Subway sandwich platter is because my food is that much better and I don't have hundreds of thousands of pounds of food preorderd across the year to get my purchasing costs to the other guys margins.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

My brother is an organist and he's had people request that he play the organ for their weddings free of charge because "he enjoys it so much". Naturally those people find themselves without an organist despite having spent thousands of dollars for their wedding day.

There are cheapskates out there but it's still important to remember that operating a woodworking business is not the same as making stuff then sticking a price tag on it. You have to have a product, know the market value, find people who want it then figure out how to manufacture it fast enough to sell at market value.

Some stuff will never be profitable because the market is already saturated with such items and they sell at very low prices. Make sure that you're offering something that's not available anywhere else for less money. Nobody cares how much time you spent making the item.

There are a couple routes to take. One is to offer something custom or customizable. That eliminates competition from stores. The other is to find a niche product and get really good at making it so competitors struggle to keep up.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Another bit of advice…

If someone asks for a discount, require a good reason for giving the discount. I did one large job where somebody wanted to get the price lower and I did accommodate but he had to pay the entire cost of the project up front and give me several weeks extension on the deadline.

He got the discount and was happy and I was satisfied because I could schedule other jobs at my convenience and could invest in a few items without waiting for the end of the project.


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## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

> But that kind of treatment "hurts my feelings" How about you?
> - snowgoer


It wouldn't hurt my feelings. I just make some comment back like I wish I could sell them for that, I would have to be mass producing them to sell them for that much, but these are custom made. Then just laugh it off.

There is always going to be people that don't know the value of what your selling and you shouldn't worry about it because those people shouldn't be your target market anyway.
If your putting your product to sell out there in that manner, then you have to expect a percentage of people to be like that.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I have written my thoughts on this topic many times and so won't write a long reply tonight as I am totally exhausted however,the general public have zero idea about the manufacturing implications of solid timber, bespoke furniture.
Like I say and have said many times they have all had their furniture education from IKEA etc.They therefore think along Ikea prices route, not realizing that the two are totaly dissimilar pieces of furniture,In fact I don't mean to say this just to get a laugh, but is the stuff Ikea selling really furniture at all?I don't believe Ikea use any real hardwoods incorporated into their very temporary meagre efforts. Allbeit they sometimes can look really quite nice,they are not bespoke furniture with longevity built into the design concept.
In fact if you get it home without wear and tear you are really very lucky.Basically and again I don't mean to be flippant their man made mushed up ,formaldehyde reconstituted sawdust, with a very thin plastic coating which is always flat packed, And yet again nothing wrong with this concept either so long as it is done correctly,it has been around for hundreds of years,see military campaign furniture.It has done well enough that for hundreds of years you can still find good examples of these well thought out designs.However they were all made from reall wood which grew on trees, just like all good antique examples today which fetch amazing prices many years after there original construction long ceased to be in existance.
In short and ( yes I despite promissing myself faithfull not to do so have rambled on about this sad, and very frustrating, problem) simply becaus of the injustice it brings to young and old craftsmen and women,who are struggling.
My heart goes out to these young and not so young people involved in furniture making and dependent on paying the bills as a result of their hard learned , and hard earned efforts.
Their equipment,and then premises,electricity heating in winter,combined long years of serious training in both manufacturing technique, and design. Add also to this list very expensive real wood , and fittings of the highest quality add to this many usually quite unseen sundrie costs.I.E glue etc nails, screws ,you all know what I mean.As I have said many time Ikea is a very good stop gap, for young people who can't afford the real thing just yet, and the longevity/investment argument is put off until they grow older wiser and also more affluent.So that they can eventually at last buy with an educated long term investment for their and their childrens future.
Has anyone ever seen beautiful old quality hand made furniture lose money as the years pass by.We all know these things are actually a very clever long term investment. So that you have many fine years of wonderful service from these beautifully made pieces of real art and functionability, sometimes even made to your very own design too if you so wish .,and all that time during which your choices in bespoke hand made items will outlast many generations with minimum care.
OH OH OH Enough already,I am just glad I only do this for the sheer therapeutic joy and am not in any way depenent on my families survival as a result .
From my heart I wish all of you wonderful friends of mine here, and those still to come every well deserved happiness and peace of mind for their future God Bless your brother Big Alistair


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

Most people who offer very little compensation do so out of ignorance. They have no idea of the kind of time it takes to design furniture, the cost of raw wood, the time it takes to choose lumber for different parts properly, create joints that will last a lifetime, the time it takes to create a beautiful finish, the cost of creating and maintaining a shop etc. etc. They are comparing what you are making to thin, veneer covered particle board put together with dowels and sometimes even staples. They are comparing things built in China to the cost of living here. I wish them all well. But I do tell them what is involved and how much time it will take. You are doing very highly skilled work. If they don't want to - or more often - can't afford custom furniture, I understand and don't do business with them.


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## runswithscissors (Nov 8, 2012)

I wonder how much of that sawdust-held-together-with-snot Idea junk will achieve antique status? I can see it now, with the plastic chipped off and sawdust dribbling out. But I do admit, it's very heavy, which surely is a reflection of quality.


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## wseand (Jan 27, 2010)

Luckily most of my work is custom, if they dont like the price i dont make it. Ofcourse there can be a little bardering involved but that's what makes it fun. Handyman work is by the hour work not negotiable, unless they have something I want.

Don't let the guy get to you, he just doesn't appreciate hard work. Maybe he has something you need, make the guy work for the 100 dollar offer then deny him.


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## bobro (Oct 24, 2014)

The radical devaluation of labor and talent is an absolute prerequisite for the way things work today. How else can we possibly justify paying Asian children a dollar a day?

I read some articles on why zombie apocalypse and such like movies are so popular. None struck directly on the most obvious reason: people long for connection with hard reality, where skill and work pay off, where a farmer is worthy of a great wage and a lawyer of little.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

The Asian connection notwithstanding, no one has addressed the "where does this attitude originate"?

The first fact on that slapped me in the face a few years back when I was shown the statistical reality that the largest furniture retailer in the United States is…wait for it…Walmart.
As you all know, the biggest lines they sell are the "screw it together yourself" stuff, mainly made by Sauder and others. This is the lowest possible line of furniture, and it is totally impossible to compete with. Actually, makes Ikea look like good stuff.

The second reason came to me in the last couple years, when my wife and I, as a hobby, started visiting thrift shops, pawn shops, and donation stores such as Goodwill, ReStore, etc. I was just floored at the amount of furniture these places sell. It's not just for lower economic class people anymore.

I was in a large Goodwill on Saturday. among the sofas, cabinets, etc, they had in the back ten-twelve sets of solid pine head and footboards. the posts were 4X4 turned, and the panels were all solid pine. They were really nice, and I could not for the life of me figure out who would have donated these. Turns out, a motel. You could have one of these sets, headboard/footboard, in a twin, including the rails, for $14.99. The queens were $20.99. I actually thought of buying one or two just to harvest the solid wood for things like bar fronts, etc. I might still go back.

My wife has been after me for about two months to make her one of those large, vertical mirror jewelry boxes that swivel on long legs. I was just about ready to start it when I saw an ad in a Kmart for a solid wood version for $89.99 on Thanksgiving evening.
We went, and I never thought we would get one. We showed up about 6PM, and there it was, on the rack in a box. I paid my $89.99, took it home and had it together in minutes since I only had to put the legs together. It is mainly that Asian rubberwood, but solid wood, none the less.
I looked it over, and thought to myself, "I could not buy all the nice hooks, swivels, hinges, felt and mirror for less than about $35." If I added wood, I would be over $89.99 before I cut the first piece of wood. This was easier…

That is why my only outlet is a high-end museum gallery that sells to the rich. And my guitars have a final quote before I get a deposit. The deposits are not refundable. I aim for $20 an hour plus materials and shop costs, very fair for a semi-retired guy, I think. I don't live off of it, but it makes for nice walking around money.

Paul


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Don't let it get you down. People are always going to ask to have stuff made cheaply. I just bid 5 pieces of custom wood, glass, and metal furniture for a business. They called me back and said it was considerably more than they wanted to pay. I said, "I'm sorry, but that is the price". I told them I could knock off 3 or 4%, but that was it. They said they would call me back.

It is much easier to sluff this off when it isn't your primary source of income. If they don't want to pay, you just forget them and make whatever you want. If this is your primary income, you have to find people who will pay, which no doubt can be difficult.


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## slickrick (Nov 30, 2014)

Snowgoer I had a similar experience awhile back, built a great walnut live edge bench, the couple came to visit my shop the wife spotted it & fell in love,a couple days past Husband calls my wife. He offers 2 bills… my wife said that was an insult. Long story,short. They ended up buying at 15% off my asking. Never really wanted to sell it..UGH !!! But thought the couple would turn into good clients, nope..just cheep!! Been at this bout 27 yrs.building custom Furniture, still tough spotting these. I do agree with the above about Ikea & wmart mentality, but it could be money is tight, I usually hit in the 90% mark of getting bid jobs, but of late it seams to about 20-30 %....just gotta keep bidding .


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Custom is the key, you can't compete with what people can buy online or in a store importing everything. Keep a detailed portfolio including lots of pictures, dimensions, materials, finish and even weight of what you've produced in the past. Making things on spec is costly, consume a lot of space and requires a kind of marketing you might not want to be into (shows). Good pictures and the ability to customize something to fit a potential customer's space is what can make your product more valuable to the customer than what's available in a store. You have to set the price, not the customer. You also have to know what your bottom line is without taking a loss, price for a little wiggle room, but not too much. I can't go into a dealership and offer $10K for a new $40K truck and expect that to work out for me, but I might be able to offer $36K and have my offer accepted.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Sigh….
I've found that people either…

Want what's good enough from ikea or walmart and cheap.

Want something mass produced by close tolerance machine, and well made to assembly line perfection and pay more for it.

Want something that can't be purchased like they want it unless it's hand made and pay more for it.

And those weird (in my mind) people who look for old beat up stuff, hand made or not, and love it as it is. Sometimes it's not beat up enough and they help it along.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

As a side note, I've had some stuff for sale before where the offer was so low, even with the price having been learly identified, I've had to tell them "That offer will only get you a half dozen REALLY good pictures." This tactic either helps to shock people back into reality as to what things cost or you never hear from them again.


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> Like I say and have said many times they have all had their furniture education from IKEA etc.They therefore think along Ikea prices route, not realizing that the two are totaly dissimilar pieces of furniture,In fact I don t mean to say this just to get a laugh, but is the stuff Ikea selling really furniture at all?I don t believe Ikea use any real hardwoods incorporated into their very temporary meagre efforts. Allbeit they sometimes can look really quite nice,they are not bespoke furniture with longevity built into the design concept.


Ikea does have various grades of things; from the fancy cardboard stuff to real wood. They do make some real gems of products if you look. They get a bad rap because of prices and the build quality on some/most of their stuff.

For example, the Poang is going to without a doubt go down as one of histories most iconic chairs. Practically every 20-30 something has (or does) owned one; they are cheap, comfortable, and indestructable (bent baltic birch ply is extremely durable).

We've got one of their large shelves, the Norrebo, that thing is absolutely built like a tank. Solid birch; even fully loaded to the brim with books it shows no sign of strain. We've had it for 10 years now; its surely going to last a lot longer than we will.

Woodworking craftman have a niche in the custom market, but that's about it and nothing is going to change that; there is no competing with industry.

I personally think though that throwaway furniture is at the peak of its popularity. Future cheap manmade materials will be stronger/better (Oak OSB?). Plus everyone knows that cheap throwaway furniture sucks, things that suck tend to become less popular over time (see the US auto industry and what the cheap throwaway 70's-80's era designs did to it; people that grew up in the US in that time don't typically drive US cars).


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I would add to Waldo88's comment, to say that some of the products I see at craft shows with high prices are of lower quality, have glue squeeze out making white spots in the finish, and still showing holes from the brad nailer.

Before we criticize IKEA quality… make sure that just because you spent 3 days making it, doesn't mean it is "Automatically BETTER" than other things.

Seen some 'dog' projects on the projects page that I would never make an offer on. Perhaps my projects can/do fall into that category at times.

There are good buys at many price points, and some crapola, but before we get insulted by the customer, we should ask ourselves what a piece of the given QUALITY should cost…. regardless how long it took us to get there.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

I believe I would like to +1 with DrDirt's comments on some products at craft shows. Last year I was at a large festival with maybe 100 wood people, and one fellow had these very nice archtop trunks. I lifted the top to gain finger fulls of splinters since he had used Kreg screws to mount top pieces, and had never sanded nor filled the holes. I informed him he might want to break out the sandpaper while I stood there, picking maple and walnut splinters out of my fingers.
He gave me a dirty look…

I also had a couple find my shop with an antique, (sort of), kitchen table that was missing its top. The table had belonged to her grandmother.
Maple through and through, I knew these people from my church, they were friends of my neighbor, so I did them a favor and quoted them $125 for a new top.
Then they said could I also glue up all the loose joints? 
I grudgingly agreed.
Ten hours of work later, and $40 worth of maple, I had the guy looking over the project with a fine tooth comb and asking a lot of stupid questions on technique, why did I do this and that, etc. I was about ready to tell him just load the damn thing, get it out of my site, and keep your money.
Instead, I took his $125 and swore that was the last time. And it has been. A couple people have walked, but I don't care anymore. I still have enough to fill my shop. I would rather make presents for my children and grandchildren than be taken through the briars by cheapskates.

I raised the prices of my guitars last December. A measley $50, on average. Now, I get people nickel-diming me. The latest is some fellow from Mexico.
I wrote him today, and said that if he tries to add anything else, money goes up. All of a sudden, the design was just fine…(FYI, his non-refundable deposit is in my bank account - that always helps.)


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

Sometimes you need an angle. I have a niece who makes mittens out of old sweaters. She sells hundreds of pairs at craft shows at $29/pair. I think last year she sold over 1000 pair. She buys up all the sweaters at $1-$2 each from goodwill stores, making the rounds periodically. She cuts cloth from the sweaters and makes very nice mittens. She calls them "upcycled" which appeals to some people and is from Maine so the company is "MaineCoast Mittens". Again another draw. She also advertises them as each one hand made. She goes to three large craft shows, pays up to $500 for a space in them and comes away with 10 grand. The shows are fairly local, Maine, Vermont, NH. And in the late summer / fall, they sell like crazy for Christmas gifts.

Anyway she has a system that sells.

Cheap materials
mass production of high numbers of product.
An attractive well made product
Demand
High profit margin
Brand, eco, and location appeal


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

> Anyway she has a system that sells.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake


She definitely has it covered.. Bet she would do well in the Northwest, as she does in the northeast…though Maine is colder than Oregon


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Anyway she has a system that sells.
> 
> - Craftsman on the lake
> 
> ...


Thing is we often can't mass produce, or get materials cheaply, or have something like an eco angle. Then if we try to have a high profit margin on one item that took a lot of time to complete it doesn't sell.

The only angle we have is "hand crafted heirloom quality". But for that you probably need to live in an affluent area. Then again, if we did we probably wouldn't need to be selling our stuff.

I used to make Acoustic guitars. I'm an actual graduate of the Maine school of Luthiery that existed back in the 70's. I used my craft to help pay for college but each guitar I sold was way below the work that went into it or, if I may blow my own horn, what it was actually worth. Now, a good guitar made by an established luthier with a known product and name might do better, but it's a long shot and you have to work at it and also get lucky.

Let's face it guys (and gals) Most of us will only always have an enjoyable hobby. Don't quit your day job.


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I deal with the cheapest rich people on planet earth.Its always fun to listen to a millionaire say why he can only spend so much meanwhile driving a six figure car and wearing a watch worth as much as my truck.I have learned to blow it off and when they make stupid comments on price i like to say go somewhere else you have already wasted my time money and patience.The majority dont know good quality if it slapped them in the face its a hard game to play.Im not a bs artist but others here in hawaii are and make good money its all about how you present yourself and attitude quality usually comes second.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

Many have mentioned it either directly or indirectly. either you supply "custom" in one way or another fulfilling a customers need that cannot be provided elsewhere or you supply grade products but manufacture them more efficiently. People seem to judge themselves using someone else as a guide. if they cant do it fast enough the other persons work must be sub standard. maybe they just are better at it. you have to have an angle. better quality is one angle. unique or unavailable anywhere else is another. Fast and cheap will get the sales. You have to establish the guidelines for your product with the customer and provide the level of quality you agree on. I do turnings, Posts and columns. I don't sand a post that is going to be painted to the same finish as one that is going to be stained and finished. it doesn't make the job better because I spent three times as long sanding to the same final grit. I don't use oak on a post that's going to be outside either it wouldn't be a quality material in that application and it costs more. Its up to me to educate the customer. I am supposed to be the professional they had better not be educating me! I guess you can consider yourself an artist and then there are no guidelines, its "art". there are a lot of hungry artists out there lol. If you want to be a craftsman then there is a basis for pricing available, the competition. try to compete with Ikea you will loose! make a competitive product at a competitive price, if you cant, find something else to make. Don't get frustrated and find fault with someone else's work to justify your shortcomings. I am sure you have heard it before" If you cant make it in the trades you can always become an inspector"


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## InstantSiv (Jan 12, 2014)

If your customers aren't buying because of price it's because you're marketing it in the wrong place. Either cater to that market or find a market suited to your goods.


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