# Calling all woodwork physisists!



## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

I have recently started a new job in a machine shop in a local college. I am responsible for the machines and their safe use by students. I would like to make a point to the students about eye safety, particularly while using the planer thicknesser. I want to know, roughly, how fast would a wood chip be travelling whilst being ejected be the planer drum, which is rotating at 5000rpm? I see the students, and lecturers for that matter, standing over the machine, screwing their face up because there are chips flying straight at their face. Why not wear safety glasses,which I have made readily available at all machines, I just don't know. I have seen a thread regarding the use of safety gear on TV on LJs, and I agree. These are guys and girls starting out in their chosen trade, who are going to need their eyes for the rest of their lives.

Anyway, any ideas????

Cheers,

Garry


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

No safety glasses, no entry.


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## descolada (Jun 23, 2013)

Assuming a 4" diameter cutterhead, the chips should be flying out at about 60mph. Twice the diameter equals twice the speed.

Or what MrRon said.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I agree with no safety glasses no entry.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

How do you stand over a planer when feeding wood and why would the chips be coming straight up? Pretty much every planer I've ever used shoots them out the opposite side of feed, away from the operator. But yeah, glasses should be required in order to use any machine in that type of environment, regardless of where the chips may fly. That has been the rule in every shop class I've ever been in or seen.

Cheers,
Brad


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

> I agree with no safety glasses no entry.
> 
> - Redoak49


 Pretty much


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## JulianLech (Jan 13, 2011)

This should be a rule established by the department manager (or who ever is responsible) and enforced by the instructors. I would also suspect you could find an OSHA regulation on the use of personal protective equipment (i.e. safety glasses, etc…). All OSHA regs. are on the internet.


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## agallant (Jul 1, 2010)

http://classroom.synonym.com/convert-rpm-mph-calculator-2854.html


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I would bet that an OSHA inspector would FREAK OUT if he came into a woodworking shop and no one was wearing safety glasses. Same for most manufacturing plants. Every one I've worked at had signs on all the doors saying "Safety Glasses Required Beyond This Point"


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

Where's the dust extraction ? That's a negligent situation to have it shooting to the air.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Even with a vac running, chips can and do get stuck up in the carriage then drop down onto the board being planed then ejected out the infeed side. The spinning cutter head with knives standing out an 1/8" acts just like a rotating fan. It happens when multiple boards are making multiple passes to dim.

All planers are set to eject without DC, you can buy the attachment to connect a DC hose or not. Not recommended but doable. My JPM came with the dust shoot, I had to buy the shoot separate for my Delta 12"


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## HornedWoodwork (Jan 28, 2015)

I would create a certification program. A person must be trained and certified by an instructor to operate that machine, must pass a written test, must agree to use the PPG provided, and can have their certification revoked if they are observed misusing the machine or failing to wear PPG.


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## Shadowrider (Feb 2, 2015)

Knowing the RPM and the diameter of the cutterhead you can figure the surface speed in feet per minute. That's how fast the cutter teeth are moving so the chip is going that fast as it leaves the cutter.

(RPM x DIA)x 3.1416/12

Edit: Dang software won't let me type asterisks


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I come out w/ 86 fps (feet per second), assuming a 4" cutterhead, which is probably more meaningful than mph. So if a persons eye was 18" from the cutterhead it would take .017 seconds for a particle of wood to reach the target eye, far faster than anyone can react or even perceive the hazard. Wear safety glasses.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

*So if a persons eye was 18" from the cutterhead it would take .017 seconds for a particle of wood to reach the target eye, far faster than anyone can react or even perceive the hazard. Wear safety glasses.*

It may leave the cutter at that speed, but will very quickly slow due to air resistance, shape and light weight of the chips themselves.. and I doubt anyone is going to have their head just a foot and a half away from it! Still not an excuse.. safety glasses need to be worn and should be required to use any machine that shoots out chips or has any potential to do so, regardless of how fast or slow they may be coming at you.

Cheers,
Brad


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks all for your input. The extraction is very efficient, but, as Ghidrah says, the best extraction in the world wont stop stray chips. I have been round machinery long enough to know you can't be too careful. This is the machine in question.








It has a 520mm wide cutter head, with 4 knives, which, as I say, rotates at up to 5000rpm. I have signs, I have glasses everywhere, and I have talked to the lecturers, urging them to insist on safety wear. The college have policies in place, as laid out by the HSE (Health and Safety Executive) but enforcing this is proving to be challenge.


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

In my high school woodworking class safety glasses are required or you do not touch the equipment. If it becomes a problem they are removed from class until they decide to wear them. I also require safety test that must be passed before the equipment can be used. It has been four weeks and 5 people out of 19 can use the machines. It must be boring to watch those 5 build projects while they study safety rules.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Woodmaster has the right idea. Rules without any consequences are just suggestions. You need to have the authority to have those people removed from the shop. You might become unpopular for a while but once everybody is following the safety rules nobody will have anything to complain about.

Find out what the fine is for violating any regulations that your shop is subject to. Talk to the college's lawyers if necessary and emphasize the litigation risk they college is exposing itself to if someone is injured because the college did not enforce the safety rules.

If you can't get any support whatsoever, just print off some detailed photos of eye injuries caused by each tool, and attach the photos in the line of sight wherever each person looks while using the tool.

Or take everyone's photo, and if they don't follow the safety rules post their picture on a public board and state they are not allowed to use the tools.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

albachippie,
I think I wet myself getting a gander at that baby, you lucky s***! I never had anything close to that in grade and HS woodshop. One would assume Tech, HS and College insurance policies would be adamant on limb and eye protection.
As previously mentioned by others here, " no gear no play", I would be bold and demand the power from admin to remove a student from the class that didn't acquiesce to the printed and conspicuous rules. You're the one they'll come down on when something goes wrong.


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

> albachippie,
> I think I wet myself getting a gander at that baby, you lucky s***! I never had anything close to that in grade and HS woodshop. One would assume Tech, HS and College insurance policies would be adamant on limb and eye protection.
> As previously mentioned by others here, " no gear no play", I would be bold and demand the power from admin to remove a student from the class that didn t acquiesce to the printed and conspicuous rules. You re the one they ll come down on when something goes wrong.
> 
> - Ghidrah


I laughed at your post!! It is an amazing piece of kit. The jointing table has a pneumatic assist to lift it and convert it to thicknessing. Lifting over 120kg with two fingures! All digital settings to 0.1 of a mm. Anyway, I will post pics of the machines on another thread!

I like the idea of no gear no play. In reality it is difficult for "the new guy" to enforce. I think i would be given the authority to enforce it by management, but having been in the job only 5 weeks, it's the students I would be battling with. It is in a college, with a range of ages and abilities, from school kids getting taught basic skills, to apprentices and bTech students (training to be tech teachers, think they know everything, don't get me started…...!)

Appreciate the advice guys,
Garry


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I was one of those tech teachers in training 40 years ago and I did know everything. (LOL)


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## altendky (May 7, 2012)

There should be other ramifications for serious continued infractions but at the very least it seems reasonable to grade students in part on their safety practices. They are supposed to be learning and this is an easy thing that anyone can learn and do. If you can't learn to wear safety glasses around the equipment you clearly do not know how to use it correctly and should not pass the course. Of course, the instructor would need to put this in the syllabus and note it repeatedly with you listed as the grader.

I would also agree with the 'safety glasses required beyond this point' sentiment. My explanation for it (aside from the obvious) is that complex rules (glasses required within 5ft of a 30degree angle from any opening on a running machine…) are impossible to follow or enforce consistently. Glasses required to enter the room is easy for everyone involved.

But of course beating them into submission with fear of failure is hopefully much less than half of the battle. I personally am getting close to changing my safety glasses make/model because I have to scrunch my face up when using a circular saw to avoid chips bouncing behind them. I would expect that different glasses will fit different faces better providing different levels of safety so you probably ought to have some variety to choose from? Having choices makes it a little less oppressive by giving the students control over part of the situation and can enhance the safety as well. Keep the glasses clean and so on.

You also must be very responsive to their needs. If you remind them and they provide an excuse it helps to respond in a supportive manner. At the end of the day, if they don't feel they can see well (distortion from the particular lens curvature?) or the glasses are irritating their ears or nose (wrong size or shape?) or they just look geeky (get some fun colored frames in various styles? *shrug*), then that itself is a safety hazard because they will be distracted. It certainly doesn't justify not wearing safety glasses but addressing those issues is part of enhancing overall safety.

Obviously, trying to achieve this can cost money and time that you may or may not have but I tend to believe that reaching out to enable the students will help many of them get into safety. For those that don't? Well, they are welcome to lose a grade a more to represent their lack of learning.

Best of luck saving those eyes!


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I taught school for a few years, and can tell you that you need to be as tough as required, even if you don't feel comfortable or like it, in your efforts to be a "good guy" to the class. Safety is paramount. If you have ever witnessed a young man lose most of his fingers in a jointer accident (I have, but as a fellow student, not the teacher), you might be a little more strict. Whose hide is it that you think will be tacked on the wall when one of those students gets his mitts turned into hamburger? /teacher

Now, as a card-carrying physicist, I can tell you that the one splinter that squirts out of the chute and directly into a student's eye will have slowed very little, and if it is oriented correctly, will completely penetrate his/her eye with that tiny little point. It's a problem in geometric probability (another topic I used to teach) that you don't want to have to solve. /physicist

Eye protection or no work, end of story. I'd also recommend ear protection, while I'm on topic. Anyone wants to ignore basic safety practices has to do it on his own time, and not in my shop. /dad-rant

Peace, buddy, I just have a real hard hat for safety. I also teach people to shoot (NRA Certified Firearms Instructor). Incorrect procedures there can get people killed. Any safety violation on my range (it only takes one) and off they go.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

In 84 I became 2nd foreman for the crew, I got all the newbies and everyone #1 didn't want. I soon learned they called me Lil Hitler because of the rules I set. (BTW) no one wore safety glasses; some guys wore gloves because they though they looked cool not for protection, all framers within a yr develop skin so tough on their hands splinters run screaming.

When #1 sucked a guy away from my side, (inevitable) it was because he knew the tools, he knew where he was at all times and none of the guys working directly with me ever got hurt. The 1st crew Xmas party after becoming #2 My Xmas present from my bull dog Jimmy Graham my (#2) gave me a pin, it said, "As soon as you all realize that I am God, we'll get along fine!"

I'd bet dimes to dollars whoever's footing the bill for missed classes would get pissed. Anyone dropping a class because Mr. Hitler won't let them play grab ass is better than a thinning of the herd, you know … in a good way.


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

> I taught school for a few years, and can tell you that you need to be as tough as required, even if you don t feel comfortable or like it, in your efforts to be a "good guy" to the class. Safety is paramount. If you have ever witnessed a young man lose most of his fingers in a jointer accident (I have, but as a fellow student, not the teacher), you might be a little more strict. Whose hide is it that you think will be tacked on the wall when one of those students gets his mitts turned into hamburger? /teacher
> 
> Now, as a card-carrying physicist, I can tell you that the one splinter that squirts out of the chute and directly into a student s eye will have slowed very little, and if it is oriented correctly, will completely penetrate his/her eye with that tiny little point. It s a problem in geometric probability (another topic I used to teach) that you don t want to have to solve. /physicist
> 
> ...


I love this, especially the dad rant!!

Personally, I am not bothered how many people don't wear eye protection on sites, their choice as "professional trades people. The truth is, when I worked on site, as a framer, I rarely (rightly or wrongly) wore it myself. I was lucky. That was then. I am older, wiser, and more cautious now, and think eye protection is hugely important. They are not allowed in the shop without protective footwear, even though it is unlikely anything is going to fall on their feet. So why the relaxed attitude to eye protection. YES I am on a rant!!

Ear protection doesn't seem to be an issue, they wear it no problem.


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## CharlesHeilman (Feb 11, 2015)

Yes of-course, A strict rule should be formed by the department manager " No entry without safety glasses"and this is good for all.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Bitch slaps all around!


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

No excuses now!! To make it even EASIER for them to use "protection" i made these today.


















No excuses now


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

When I was student in a local machine shop class (2 years), I saw the instructor "body slam" a fellow student who had left a chuck wrench in the chuck of a very large and powerful metal lathe. He knocked him out of the way of the lathe and told all the other students why.
To this day I don't leave a chuck wrench in my wood lathe. It drives me nuts to see it done on a video.
Some people are not trainable and should NOT be allowed around machinery. So there!
Bill


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## redSLED (Mar 21, 2013)

I taught grade 12 physics for 3 semesters. Not that this qualifies me to give advice, however . . .

Another way to look at this:
The EXACT velocities of ejected wood chips from a planer under different circumstances is irrelevant! It's fast enough that damage to the soft organic matter that is called the human eye CAN happen, as a result of:
1) an unforeseen random occurrence affecting eye position and chip ejection speed, 
2) an amplified variable affecting chip ejection speed, and 
3) bad luck! - whether you believe in this or not

Just show videos to your students of people who have lost one or both eyes. Then have them write down a top 10 list of things that will affect them if they lose an eye, such as:
- job interviews
- hot dates
- playing sports
- driving vehicles
- etc.

Also agree with no safety glasses no entry.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

You go boy! Maybe you should get a God pin for your shop class. Sleeves rolled up, no rings watches or pretty dangly things hanging from the neck. It doesn't matter how fast a neuron transmits "Jerk back Fool" you can't compete with random acts of stupid and coincidence.

Having been one some long time ago, so I know, the problem with kids in general is most believe themselves to be superboy or girl and accidents only happen to other "stupid" people not "lucky" them. I'd like them to watch a 12-13 yr old friend of mine running to home plate and getting hit in the back of the head with a hardball relayed to and then thrown wildly by an infielder and then to watch him limp for the rest of his life.

Bill White,
There was a time when a teacher could defend themselves and or deliver a modicum of physical therapy, back then you didn't come home complaining about Mr. So and so smacking you for something, odds were your mother and or father would smack you for getting smacked then send you to your grandparents house for another round of smacking.


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## Yonak (Mar 27, 2014)

> Bill White,
> There was a time when a teacher could defend themselves and or deliver a modicum of physical therapy, back then you didn t come home complaining about Mr. So and so smacking you for something, odds were your mother and or father would smack you for getting smacked then send you to your grandparents house for another round of smacking.
> 
> - Ghidrah


There's s show on TV this evening called, "The Slap" that deals with the matter of discipline by another who is not the parent.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

I worked as labor and later as an apprentice plumber for my dad's plumbing company for years (prisons, schools, industrial plants). Hard hats required most of the time and I did all the tool inventory/management and safety equipment. Everyone wore safety glasses when needed cause they knew my dad would give them their checks if they didn't.

I wore hearing protection because my hearing is way to sensitive and I can't filter loud noises (get headaches). Also all the stuff I read was about hearing damage is not apparent for 10-15 years out made me paranoid. Some of the journeymen were giving me crap about this at lunch one time and one of the foreman told them "He wears those cause unlike you all he's not stupid and can read about the dangers and is macho enough not to give a damn about your crap. As a result he won't be half deaf like the rest of us when he's our age".

Now, while I thought that was giving me to much credit (that macho thing), they got off my back about it and some started using hearing protection as well.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Yonak,
For the record I'm opposed to physical violence accept for self defense. In school and catechism, (mostly catechism) I got cuffed in the back of the head or had an eraser thrown at me a few times, but I never got a teacher or priest pissed off when it happened. I was always more afraid of what would happen after I got home.

Sepeck,
Any and all state and federal projects require all the safety rules be abided by; no one wants OSHA on their case. The rules also have to be conspicuously posted for any and all to see. One contractor got lots of state and Fed work, (had a piece of paper saying he was 1/10 of 1% indian) go figure they called us The Gypsy Roofers from RI to Maine and eastern NY.


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## sepeck (Jul 15, 2012)

Ghidrah, sure. Not all our jobs were state or federal but my dad didn't see the sense of ignoring safety. Also, he figured consistency was the better of choices so people wouldn't be confused about either rules or safety.


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## Ghidrah (Jan 20, 2015)

Your father was exceptional then, I worked for one old time roofer, Apprenticed in England as a child, new it all except for the new synthetic products. Herb could find the hole in a flat roof with corrugated sheathing. He cared more about control and safety than the quantity dollar. He retired shortly after Mt. St. Helen's blew its top. I got maybe 7 mos with him.


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## albachippie (Feb 2, 2010)

Well that is interesting! Since there has been a dedicated area for safety gear, it gets used, almost all the time. The lecturers are now taking the lead, and the students are following! Who'd have thought that all it needed was a little organisation?!


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

If it is a school then there are things the student wants and doesnt want. They want to pass the do not want to be kicked out. Threats work better. I am a vinegar over honey type of guy. 
What Would John Gotti Do? Strong Arm them!



> Thanks all for your input. The extraction is very efficient, but, as Ghidrah says, the best extraction in the world wont stop stray chips. I have been round machinery long enough to know you can t be too careful. This is the machine in question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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