# What's the point of complex hidden joinery?



## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

I just saw a photo of someone making an end table with a drawer and the top divider was being attached to the leg with a double dovetail. When completed, this joint will be covered by the top and never seen again. So, this begs the question; why bother with a complex joint when it will never be seen? The whole point of doing dovetails is to show off the craftsmanship. That's why you rarely see dovetails at the back of a drawer box. Personally, I'm not a fan of dovetails but to each their own. Some will say it's for strength. I've seen dovetails in jewelry boxes with 4 inch wide drawers. How strong does it have to be? Dovetails, half laps, dados, splined miters, box joints, glued butt joints with brads, dowels, dominos, pocket screws, M&T joints are all usually stronger than the respective woods they are joining. So, if the joint is going to be hidden, how is this not a waste of time?


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

you answered your own question, strength


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> you answered your own question, strength
> 
> - PaulHWood


Not really, most of the other joints are just as strong or at least strong enough for the application. I think many times people tend to way over engineer their woodworking projects.


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## DavePolaschek (Oct 21, 2016)

> why bother with a complex joint when it will never be seen?


Why bother making something from wood when you can buy some injection molded plastic version from China that costs a tenth as much as the wood to build the project?

Why bother building a dresser at all, when you could go to ikea and buy one you could knock together in an hour?

Because you can. And it's fun.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Something like this?









Because the divider is laying flat. The dovetail on each end keep the sides from pulling apart at the top. 









Tends to hold a bit better than a simple tenon…









Whether it shows, or not….not really an issue. As long has it holds the parts together….


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Dovetails have been used as a higher standard of joinery for years part of using dovetails has to do with strength but I feel some woodworkers want the challenge of making them or they feel all the other choices are sub-standard.
I guess it's like buying some tires, some folks pay $800 a tire and others say a $100 tire will work fine.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> why bother with a complex joint when it will never be seen?
> 
> Why bother making something from wood when you can buy some injection molded plastic version from China that costs a tenth as much as the wood to build the project?
> 
> ...


I do have fun woodworking but I guess I'm a bit of a utilitarian. I see joinery as a means to an end. I make the easiest joint possible that fits the strength requirement as well as aesthetics. i.e. pocket screws for face frames and dominos where the screws would show.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> Something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly like that. I can see that there would be a mechanical advantage to the dovetail but what would be pulling it apart? I understand the dovetails like that on the end of a work bench where the vice would be pulling on the joint but in the example you pictured, once it's glued together and the top is attached there is no axial force and racking will be stabilized with the top. Couldn't the same thing be accomplished with a pinned or draw bore M&T with less effort if axial force were an issue?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Back when glues weren't what they are today, some form of mechanical strengthening was needed. If you are trying to build a piece that's historically accurate, you'll need to do the same. It might be dovetails, cut nails, or screws.

Dovetails were often used in carcass joinery and then covered with moulding. They weren't for decoration or to impress anyone with the skill of the craftsman, they were needed for strength. Same goes for drawers.

Dovetails have become a mark of finer furniture these days because they stand in contrast to the cheap, mass-produced crap held together with staples that's so common now. And too, even with today's glues, they still add strength.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> Back when glues weren t what they are today, some form of mechanical strengthening was needed. If you are trying to build a piece that s historically accurate, you ll need to do the same. It might be dovetails, cut nails, or screws.
> 
> Dovetails were often used in carcass joinery and then covered with moulding. They weren t for decoration or to impress anyone with the skill of the craftsman, they were needed for strength. Same goes for drawers.
> 
> ...


That sir, is a fine answer. I guess I never thought of replicating a period piece. My original post/question was meant to start a discussion however I've seemed to have offended some of the purists. One gentleman suggested that dovetails are done simply because you can. I find that an inadequate answer. Just because you can do something, doesn't always mean you should. I'm a Registered Nurse and Paramedic, I could start 14 gauge IV's (the largest) in everyone's external jugular vein (neck). That would give a clear advantage because fluids would run better and I could draw blood more easily from them. However, this would come at the discomfort of the patient. We generally use 18-22 gauge needles. We can still get the fluid in reasonably easy and they hurt much less. Point being, there's a time when good enough is sufficient and anything more is unnecessary.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Rich
That is a better answer and I agree, it's one of those points I knew about but couldn't conger up in my old gray matter.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

> you answered your own question, strength
> 
> - PaulHWood
> 
> ...


Are you saying that a double joint with double glue surface has the same strength as a single surface? And as other mentined "strong enough" is the phrase used in Ikea design department but not here.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

No "finish the debate" answer, but,
for real craftsman it doesn't take much longer than any other joint.
If you building quality furniture I would want the fancy joints throughout the whole piece just for the craftsmanship of the piece. I wouldn't want to have a divider screwed together with sheet rock screws just because it wont be seen.
I guess for me it would be *all about the craftsmanship, overall*.

A craftsman doesn't justify his quality by doing things because it's easier.
(If it were easy anyone could do it.) :>/


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## dubois (May 21, 2013)

I'm skeptical of this claim that historically glues were insufficient and a dovetail could make up for this, I just don't buy it. Probably such a choice had/has more to do expediency and making a buck. Probably something like a dovetail can be over used, though personally I would always choose it for a drawer, but there are places where it is simply needed to suffice like a for a ship's chest - can you imagine the demands required?


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> you answered your own question, strength
> 
> - PaulHWood
> 
> ...


It was a drawer divider. Roughly about 3/4 to an inch thick. I'm sure the double dovetail is stronger. I'm saying a M&T joint would achieve the same thing and in less time. In both cases the wood will fail long before the joint so it doesn't matter.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> No "finish the debate" answer, but,
> for real craftsman it doesn t take much longer than any other joint.
> If you building quality furniture I would want the fancy joints throughout the whole piece just for the craftsmanship of the piece. I wouldn t want to have a divider screwed together with sheet rock screws just because it wont be seen.
> I guess for me it would be *all about the craftsmanship, overall*.
> ...


By that same rationale, do you make your drawer boxes and runners/dust covers out of the same material as the whole piece? I'll bet dollars to pesos that lesser woods are used in even the finest Stickley furniture for those applications. If dovetails are the be all end all joints then why aren't face frames put together with them? I'll tell you why. It's because they are a PITA especially when other means will produce a sufficiently strong joint. Norm Abrahm put most of his stuff together with glue and brads. Is he not a "real craftsman"?


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

^^^ not sure aboug that. I often see straight M&T joints fail for example in chairs.


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> ^^^ not sure aboug that. I often see straight M&T joints fail for example in chairs.
> 
> - Carloz


Chairs are meant to be sat on, end tables aren't. Also not too many chairs are put together with dovetails.


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## jacksdvds (Jun 13, 2015)

What if Micheal Angelo used a paint roller and spray gun?


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## Bobmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

> What if Micheal Angelo used a paint roller and spray gun?
> 
> - Jack Lewis


He probably would have if he'd had them.


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## LesB (Dec 21, 2008)

Interesting discussion and I can agree with almost every one.
It is sort of like the difference between hand cutting your dove tails and machine cutting them. With the advent of the machine cuts the "craftsman" started making extra thin dovetails joints which are all but impossible to make with a machine. They are not better but do display the fact that the joint was hand made by a craftsman.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

My personal answer to the question "So, if the joint is going to be hidden, how is this not a waste of time?" is that I enjoy the process as well as the finished product. I am retired and do woodworking as a hobby. The beauty of the hobby is that I can be as inefficient as I care to be.

In response to "The whole point of doing dovetails is to show off the craftsmanship. That's why you rarely see dovetails at the back of a drawer box," I disagree. When you yank on the front of a drawer, the front wants to pull away from the sides. There are no such stresses pulling the back away from the sides.

I have been fortunate to work on some very old wooden objects in our town's historical society. Over time, there are a lot of unforeseen stresses on various parts. Most of the joints that were joined with "complex" joinery survive and most of the others do not, especially if the glue has been compromised.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

For professional furniture makers overdone 
joinery can help justify prices for heirloom 
pieces. Garret Hack puts these gimmicky little 
drawers in funny places to make his work 
stand out. It's a good gimmick and his joinery
is also flawless.

If you're a hobby woodworker, don't bother
with fancy joinery if you don't want to. There's
nothing wrong with not being interested in 
traditional joinery. I was interested in it when
I was starting out but now I just want to use
whatever quickest method is acceptable for
the application.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

So, this begs the question; why bother with a complex joint when it will never be seen?

Strength is the short answer, It is going to be stronger than an open top M&T and for some people the time it takes make is about the same, so why not. Really once you've cut a bunch of DT joints they go very fast. If you hate that joint you will really hate full blind DT's.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> Really once you've cut a bunch of DT joints they go very fast. If you hate that joint you will really hate full blind DTs.
> 
> - bondogaposis












Or mitered dovetails. Never tried these, I don't think they'd be hard to do, but for those who don't want a case to show dovetails.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> No "finish the debate" answer, but,
> for real craftsman it doesn t take much longer than any other joint.
> If you building quality furniture I would want the fancy joints throughout the whole piece just for the craftsmanship of the piece. I wouldn t want to have a divider screwed together with sheet rock screws just because it wont be seen.
> I guess for me it would be *all about the craftsmanship, overall*.
> ...


Well, I'm not a Real Craftsman, I take as many short cuts as possible. 
Norm is not a Real Craftsman either. 
If you don't do a joint because you think it's a PITA then that's you, others might find it relaxing.
One thing I learned a long time ago in woodworking, there are no rules how you decide to do something.

I understand by all your comments back to everybody that you are going to win your argument that there is no reason to do it, so, do as you do and have a nice day.

I wonder what Benji would say? (a Real Craftsman)
http://lumberjocks.com/benjireyes/projects


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I get bored making the same stuff. Pocket screws are a good strong joint but very boring to me. How about this joint it take time and patience and skill to get right. Mason's miter or aka gun stock joint. I think it's very handsome.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I m skeptical of this claim that historically glues were insufficient and a dovetail could make up for this, I just don t buy it. Probably such a choice had/has more to do expediency and making a buck. Probably something like a dovetail can be over used, though personally I would always choose it for a drawer, but there are places where it is simply needed to suffice like a for a ship s chest - can you imagine the demands required?
> 
> - dubois


It's not a claim, it's a fact. Watch some antique restoration videos and see. Tom Johnson of Thomas Johnson Antique Restorations has lots of videos and you can get an idea of the construction techniques used over the past three hundred years. Lots of nails, screws and dovetails. Some of it is quite primitive.

Check out Charles Neil when he's talking about period pieces. Locking joints were the way to go, and still are. A sliding dovetail will hold a side panel straight and prevent cupping - a dado won't. A sliding dovetail locks the joint tight to inhibit racking - a dado won't do that either. If you have grain mismatch a sliding dovetail allows you to tack only the front with glue and allow the wood to move all it wants in the rear. An example of this is a frame with a dust panel used for drawer runners. The frame is long grain, but is being attached to a side piece that (more than likely) has the grain running vertically. If you cut a dado and glue that runner in with glue down the full length, you're going to have some serious problems when that side piece moves, and the long-grain runner doesn't.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> It s not a claim, it s a fact. Watch some antique restoration videos and see. Tom Johnson of Thomas Johnson Antique Restorations has lots of videos and you can get an idea of the construction techniques used over the past three hundred years. Lots of nails, screws and dovetails. Some of it is quite primitive.
> 
> Check out Charles Neil when he s talking about period pieces. Locking joints were the way to go, and still are. A sliding dovetail will hold a side panel straight and prevent cupping - a dado won t. A sliding dovetail locks the joint tight to inhibit racking - a dado won t do that either. If you have grain mismatch a sliding dovetail allows you to tack only the front with glue and allow the wood to move all it wants in the rear. An example of this is a frame with a dust panel used for drawer runners. The frame is long grain, but is being attached to a side piece that (more than likely) has the grain running vertically. If you cut a dado and glue that runner in with glue down the full length, you re going to have some serious problems when that side piece moves, and the long-grain runner doesn t.
> 
> - Rich


Good example of when a sheet rock screw just doesn't cut it.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

> I get bored making the same stuff. Pocket screws are a good strong joint but very boring to me. How about this joint it take time and patience and skill to get right. Mason s miter or aka gun stock joint. I think it s very handsome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Handsome, elegant, and very pleasing! Most of the things David Pye, The Nature & Aesthetics of Design, classifies as "unnecessary work" are the very things that help make our work more beautiful and desirable.

For exapmle, to be useful, a table top only needs to be sanded to 80-100 grit. Most of us will go to 240 grit.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Good example of when a sheet rock screw just doesn t cut it.
> 
> - jbay


I like that. I think we should make drywall screws the official fastener of the "Without Personal Experience" thread.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Good example of when a sheet rock screw just doesn t cut it.
> 
> - jbay
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be able to comment on that.. :>/


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## AandCstyle (Mar 21, 2012)

Bob, I think it comes down to one's personal standards. You have yours and I have mine. Why do you feel it necessary to proselytize yours? Are you feeling insecure in your utilitarianism?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Real craftsmen do it like this.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> Real craftsmen do it like this.
> 
> - Loren


That is hilarious! Thanks for the laughs.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Or this?









Oh, I forgot..some were talking about NOT seeing these….


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

To answer the original question and to quote André Jacob Roubo,
"To make as perfectly as possible"
https://lostartpress.com/products/to-make-as-perfectly-as-possible-roubo-on-marquetry

I have done full blind dovetails in a small box in order that the joinery not telegraph through the covering veneer …. ever. It isn't the easy way but it is the "most perfect".

..... no, I don't do that all the time but when the piece demands the best I've got, .......


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## clin (Sep 3, 2015)

I'm no expert on the history of woodworking, but I assumed dove tail and other positive or locking joints were originally used when glues didn't exist or couldn't be relied on. And even today, when glues are very good, they can still loosen up over long periods of time. Or even if the glue doesn't fail, the wood might if there is no other positive support other then the glue bond.

I agree that fancy joints can be overkill for strength. Often simple joints are plenty strong for the application.

Also, why climb mount Everest. Sometimes we do things just for the challenge and satisfaction.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

Yes, over engineering is half the fun

Also, some joints are traditional to a piece or the woodworker is most comfortable with a particular joint



> you answered your own question, strength
> 
> - PaulHWood
> 
> ...


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I would answer this by pointing out why Japanese craftsmen do what they do. It could be just a matter of pride in doing something that requires great skill.


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## cathode (May 18, 2014)

You guys are ALL wrong. here's the strongest joint:


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

It's hard to argue with something that can last hundreds of years.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> You guys are ALL wrong. here s the strongest joint:
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Welding wood….how many years have I wasted by NOT welding wood? .


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## metroplexchl (Jul 26, 2017)

I'm pretty new to this stuff, but from what I understand it does provide serious benefits in strength. I saw a japanese joinery vid where these master craftsmen would use certain hidden joints for certain beams and posts depending on what kind of tension or tortion the piece would have to endure.

I've also been trying to increase my badassery by learning different joints. I think that its also a bit of a bragging point. ;-)


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Sometimes, they hide in plain sight..









Until a lid gets opened…


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Loren …. your such a wag funny as !!

Oh Dave…...how could you!

Sentence 1 and 2, "Why Bother" I need to send you a cake of soap, ... whats your address please.

Sentence 3 ….Phew lucky…your saved!

Otherwise some reading about Japanese Joinery may enlighten 
Its not just confined the japan with their lack of raw materials either I am sure early USA settlers used only joint construction in their log cabins, bridges and other pioneering structures.

And if you want to go really complex check out A1Jim's latest post. that will blow your complex joint mind!

In closing 
Some words from George N "if its built well you do not need glue"


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## wood2woodknot (Dec 30, 2012)

Aw, just build it on a 3D printer and it will be one solid piece with no joints to worry about.

Dubai wants to become the 3D tech center for the world. They recently planned on building an entire four-story office building with 3D technology, furniture included, and are looking forward to a ten-story building. Waiting to hear how well they succeed.

In the meantime, the future holds unthinkable things for us. Might take away all our fun. You thought Ikea was bad.


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## GregTP (Oct 26, 2015)

There is a mechanical advantage to having the stretchers dovetailed into the legs; it gives the piece greater resistance to racking forces. But mostly I think it is a challenge to the maker. I tend to prefer exposed fancy joinery but thats probably because I'm still in the phase of convincing people (and myself) that I can do it. I have a family friend that worked for a very high end furniture company in our area who ended up quitting because they "cut too many corners." So he started his own shop and builds it the way he wants to.

Translating JFK into woodworking rhetoric: we don't do it because it's easy, we do it because its hard.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Next time I go in for surgery I hope the doctor doesn't say, "No one's ever going to see inside this guy, so I'm going to take shortcuts. Why waste my time doing it right?"


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

> Next time I go in for surgery I hope the doctor doesn t say, "No one s ever going to see inside this guy, so I m going to take shortcuts. Why waste my time doing it right?"
> 
> - summerfi


You should also hope that the surgeon isn't like those woodworkers who sign their work.


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