# Shop lighting questions



## Vrtigo1 (Mar 18, 2010)

I've noticed more and more lately that I need to do something about the lighting in my shop. My shop is my converted 2 car garage which originally had only a 60 watt light bulb. I installed two of the cheapo 4' fluorescent fixtures from home depot when I moved in, but it's still very dim out there and I have a lot of problems with shadows because the lights are in the middle of the garage and I stand between them and whatever I'm working on 90% of the time.

I read a lot about shop lighting here and at other sites and it seems like T8 lights are a popular choice. I did some research and found these fixtures at home depot: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-202052422/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 along with these bulbs: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg3/R-100476644/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053. Am I on the right track?

I found an online calculator at GE's website that said I would need about 15 of these to get 100 foot candles of light, which is what I've seen as the recommended light level for a shop at quite a few woodworking websites. I was thinking I could do three rows of four fixtures each and then use task lighting as needed. That would put me at a cost of around $350-400 which is at the upper limit of what I'd like to spend. I realize you get what you pay for, but since this is just a hobby for me, I can't see spending more than that.

So what do you think? Am I on the right track? I assume this will make a huge difference going from the 2 fluorescent fixtures I have now?


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

I have a shop in my 2 car garage and I installed 4ea 8 foot long T8 fixtures with the highest rated bulbs. Each fixture uses 4ea 4 foot bulbs and they provide excellent illumination and I don't really have shadows. I also have the walls drywalled and painted white which helps a great deal. On some bench top tools task lighting is still used but for overall lighting the T8s are the way to go and they aren't noisy like the older fluorescent fixtures. When I have all 4 lit it's like daylight in the shop. I hope this helps!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I have six double 8' T-12 fixtures in my 24'x30' plus three 300w halogen floodlights in my garage/workshop and I still do NOT consider it OVER LIT. You are correct in assuming that you get what you pay for. Count them, 1-10 fingers… Go ahead, B&M about the cost, at least while you have ALL of your fingers.


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## 8iowa (Feb 7, 2008)

My "Workshop in the Woods" has nine of these T-8 fixtures; http://www.lowes.com/pd_163719-13537-163719_4294896174_4294937087_?productId=1217031&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl_Fluorescent%2BLighting%2BAccessories_4294896174_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr%7C0%7C%7Cp_product_quantity_sold%7C1

I selected the "daylight" T-8 bulbs because they have the highest color rendering index (CRI). To further improve the lighting level and the CRI, I also installed six 200 watt standard incandescent bulbs as they have a CRI = 100.

T-8 fixtures have two advantages; They have electronic ballasts that operate at hig frequency, around 21000 HZ , thus no flicker or hum. They also start much better at low temperatures than the old magnetic ballast fixtures.

You will also be amazed at how white ceilings and walls improves the lighting.


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## Brian024 (Feb 2, 2009)

Has anyone ever used Natural light tubes instead of Daylight? I've noticed the Daylight has a slight blue tint to it, which for some reason gives me headaches. I changed them out for Natural and they went away, plus I've noticed the quality of light is better, not quite as bright but the true color of the woods and finishes seem very close to when I take them outside in the sunlight.


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## mathom7 (Jun 6, 2010)

I put (2) of the (2) T-8 bulbs plus a 2 bulb shop light like the one you linked in my 30 by 20 ft garage this summer before putting the insulation in. I only use two of the bays for my woodworking, and didn't want to put lights above the garage door since it was open most of the time. Well now it's 20 deg outside, and I wish I would have put twice as much insulation in and 3 times as many lights. I now find myself working a majority of the time right underneath where I didn't put lights.

I think this summer I'll take the (2) units down and put (4) bulb units up and install the (2) bulb units above the garage door.

I would suggest the wrap around lights instead of the shop lights. I have both and I feel the wrap around give a more ambient light. These are usually $30 or $40 for a 2 bulb and $50+ for a 4 bulb at a big box.

30 bulbs sounds pretty excessive. I doubt I would ever consider more the 14 or 16.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

I have 6 of the el cheapo T 12 fixtures in my 18×20 garage workshop and it is plenty bright in there, I am however not happy with the flicker of the T12s. The T12s were given to me (4 of them) and 2 of them I installed 10+ years ago…

Once the case of T12 bulbs I have now burns out, I am planning on replacing the fixtures and bulbs with T8s.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Brian024*, Naturals should give you a lot warmer light that the daylights which are perceivably brighter than the old cool white.

When you guys change bulbs in your fluorescents, only one will be burned out. If you put a new one with an old, it will cause more stress on the old one. If you put 2 news in a fixture and save the old one that is still good to put with another old, you will have a lot longer lamp life.


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

This is not an answer to the subject of general lighting in a shop but you may find this thought of value.

The general lighting in my shop is okay, but not great. I like to use a portable shop light with several of my tools. I bought a shop light with a flexible neck and a magnet base. I have mounted a steel plate (normally used as a cap on an electrical box) in several strategic locations. This portable shop light sheds extra light on my router, sharp smith, band saw and lathe.

For the lathe I made a bracket that attaches to the bed of the lathe and sticks up about 18" and I have a steel plate on the top of the bracket. It is usually at the end of the lathe but I can remove it if it is in the way (which is seldom).

In addition, if you already have a DeWalt 18 volt tool with a battery and charger, this is a great addition to your shop.

http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/dewalt/products/DW919.asp

If you had to buy the light, battery and charger, it would be quite expensive but if you already have a battery and charger, this is a very reasonably priced light and it works great.

This extra light really helps me on a number of tasks.


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## SnowyRiver (Nov 14, 2008)

My shop is about 21 ft by 21 ft (two car garage) and I have the cheapo 4 ft florescent lights from Home Depot. I put 5 of these fixtures (two bulbs in each) down each bay of the garage ceiling so basically I have 20 bulbs. I positioned them so they are a bit closer to the walls then centered on the bay. This way the light tends to be more over the machines rather than in front of them. With just these lights on, its a very comfortable light and like an operating room in the hospital…bright, and no shadows. I also have added a few magnetic lights on some of the tools like the bandsaw and drill press so I can have extra light for detaill work.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

BTW, everyone should be aware that T12 fluorescent lamps have been outlawed in the USA since July 2010.

I am still finding T12s bulbs and fixtures at HD at bargain prices, nearly half the price of T8s. I guess the question is whether or not someone has the storage capacity for a couple of boxes of T12 8ft bulbs for their existing fixtures. FWIW, I currently have 6 double-bulb fixtures installed and could slowly eliminate/replace those fixtures (w/T8s) as the ballasts give out. However, with only using these ~500 hours/year, they could last for several more years (already 6 years old). Food for thought…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

And, the standard old A21 incandescent bulbs with be gone in two or three more years. I don't remember the date.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike THe bulbs are not outlawed the MAGNETIC HUMMING ballasts were outlawed in 2010.

The high frequency ballasts are still made and are completely legal.

In July of 2012 you will see a change in the Fluorescent lamps on the shelf as new energy efficiency standards take effect. 
The Halophosphor lamps Cool White and Warm white become illegal, only very high Color rendering lamps are exempt (greater than 87 CRI) or lamps that have high enough lumens per watt (like miles per gallon) can be sold. So many T12's go away aside from the very top end ones and the basic T8's. So if you have something you like, you might want to buy a case before the disappear. But the lamps that will remain will be better than what you are using today as far as brightness.
That is because the bulb will still be e.g. 40 Watts for T12, but they will generate higher lumens (light output) by using more expensive phosphor coatings.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Don't you just love the government telling you what to buy!


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

In this case, I do like it.


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## miketay89 (Feb 25, 2008)

The best lights that I have are VHO flourecents (very high output). They are 110watt bulbs. A lot of people use them for aquariums to grow plants and such. But they are perfect for the shop. Its almost like working outside on a sunny day, when you are standing under them.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

*Knothead62* I suspect it is just like a lot of the Natioal Electric Code changes, somebody with a lot to gain is behind it$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Actually the legislation banning bulbs is completely driven by the California Energy Commission who sued the Department of Energy because the DOE had not "raised the bar" since the 1994 EPACT (Energy Policy Act) which required 75 Lumens/watt - the new standard is 89 Lumens/watt. That bar was set to eliminate T12 from the market, but also took the basic T8 market with it.
*Industry was actually opposed to this*, because it increased the dependance on China for supply or Rare Earth elements - which have doubled in price on the market in the past year.
So the new performance will be nice in terms of light levels, it will just hurt at the cash register.
Even though lamps using Rare Earths are in common use now, most T12 lamps use halophosphor (Cool WHite, Day Light, Warm WHite) Those powders are approximately 1/20th the cost of the triband Rare Earth phoshor. Now all of the lamp sockets that were cheap will have to use the expensive materials.

If you are really bored here is the DOE transcript of the hearings - you can search the file for my name as I sat on this panel since I am the coating manager with Philips Lighting - and am intimately familiar with this issue.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/pdfs/transcript_lamps_nopr_tsd.doc.pdf


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dave,
The original point I was/am trying to make about T12s becoming obsolete and unavailable is:

There is a short-term opportunity to stock up on these T12 bulbs and/or fixtures for existing small (T12 lighted) workshops at a substantial discount before they disappear for good.

Anyway, thanks for explaining how Phillips Electric will profit from this move to "expensive materials." What I do not understand is WHY you say the "lamp sockets" have to change? I thought you explained that it was the materials INSIDE the bulbs that needed changing (besides the conversion to electronic ballasts).


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry typing too quick - the point I was making is that we have the same number of sockets in ceilings, (there are 4 billioin sockets to be maintained/filled in North America) and where they could be FILLED with more cost effective solutions, those choices will be phased out. There was originally discussion that there could remain the consumer lamps in T12 limited to 2 packs like you see at Home Depot or Lowes and other retailers, and that there would be a different tier for the professional mall owners and office space user to meet new standards, since typically (other than those of us with shops) there are only on average 4 fluoresceht (Tube style) lamps in the home. Usually in a laundry room or basement and sometimes a garage.

My response originally was your statement
everyone should be aware that T12 fluorescent lamps have been outlawed in the USA since July 2010.
which is not true

Not sure you thought through how my employer will profit…Try reading some news

And price hikes of 170 percent in the past year for europium are now reaching manufacturers of end products, Castellano wrote. Europium is a rare earth used as a phosphor in cold cathode fluorescent lamps in laptop backlights and plasma display panel TVs. Neodymium is also in short supply with price increases of 420 percent in the past 12 months. Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-20022161-64.html#ixzz18zyEnCnp
or just google "China Rare Earth Embargo"...

The price hikes only affect Manufacturers OUTSIDE of China. So the Chinese have us and GE and Sylvania Panasonic, Sharp and and and… by the short hairs, as China controls 97% of the Rare Earth Market.
They have put in embargoes to force companies to build LAMP factories INSIDE china and there are no export duties on Finished Goods, but 25% on RAW Materials. So it is a push to close the US factories rather than competing on cost, you just shut off the flow of Raw materials and watch the factories close down.

But by all means stick with the evil corporations rif


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Dave,
If you are going to quote me then please be accurate: "BTW, everyone should be aware that T12 fluorescent lamps have been outlawed in the USA since July 2010."

The linked article relates information from the National Lighting Bureau from a "Phillips" representative and their Vice Chair (your employer) about the DOE regulations. Sorry you over looked that. That linked article explained much of what you took the time to reiterate. I would assume you know her.

So, you are saying/implying that Phillips will actually "lower" their profit margin/rate due to increased materials cost? I find that hard to believe. IMO, it seems your statement about changing the lamp sockets implies a marketing strategy to lock-in/require "new sales" on replacement lighting fixtures, as the law actually ONLY requires changes on coatings and ballasts. Nice way to lock in future sales (good for Phillips, bad for consumers).

BOTTOM LINE: Looks like buying closeout T12 bulbs/fixtures at the big box stores is a money $aver.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike ACTUALLY READ first line of the article *you* reference:
Silver Spring, MD-Despite strong, on-going sales of 4-foot & 8-foot T12 fluorescent lamps, *the magnetic ballasts* commonly used for the lamps' operation will start becoming relics of the past on July 1, 2010, when their continued manufacture for commercial and industrial applications becomes prohibited by U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) ballast efficiency regulations.

Wheras you stated the LAMPS have been outlawed ...which is still false!

The SOCKETS DO NOT CHANGE…already explained above!

T12 will continue to be sold will into the future. There are just certain colors that go away. If you have these fixtures you will still be able to get lamps for them as well as ballasts. The MAGNETIC ballast is gone, however the new electronic ballasts are available for the past 5 years, as folks wanted to get rid of the 60Hz hum from the old magnetic ballasts for some time.

You really are being a complete Douche!


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Boy Dave aren't you the friendly type, or is that just part of your "Corporate Persona"... (redundent question, requires NO answer).

FYI, the/my statement came right from the article's title, T12 Fluorescent Bulbs/Ballasts - Outlawed as of July 1, 2010. This article sited someone from Phillips Lighting Corporation (your corporation, also your supervisor?) as the source of this information.

Is this the same committee you earlier claimed membership and input into (on another thread before you followed me over to here)? What a misleading title if you happen to be correct about the sockets. However directly from the article, National Lighting Bureau Vice Chair Susan Bloom (Philips Lighting and Philips Lighting Electronics) commented,...This means that literally millions of existing T12 fluorescent lighting sockets will have to be upgraded sooner rather than later…

Simple Dave, stay on-topic and quit trying to pick online fights. You lose credibility when you do so. You completely lost my point about whether or not to stock up on T12 bulbs and/or T12 fixtures for home workshops, while at bargain prices during their phaseout at HD/Lowes. At this point you just present yourself as just another (Phillips) "Corporate Hack" and nothing more, especially after persuing me from one thread to another.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

Mike this is much akin to me telling you how to best photograph celestial objects…not my field.

*The Mag ballast was outlawed not the lamps …no matter how many time you say "Nuh uhhh"*

Don't know what it is you are trying to accomplish, or encourage other LJ's to do about shop lighting with tin foil hat rant on the need to stock up 'cause the end is near. Some colors will go away like the Soft WHite/Kitchen and Bath, and Cool WHite and Cool WHite Plus. Natural Sunshine, Daylight Deluxe, and Cool White Deluxe (CWX) will continue to be available uninterupted.

Merry Christmas Mike


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## bobkberg (Dec 26, 2009)

I've had the older T12 style lights for years - about a year or so ago, I bought new electronic ballasts and bulbs (AND the protective plastic covers for safety). The difference is amazing - more light, and less electricity.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Hi Bob,
I was looking at the new ballasts and bulbs today at HD, but hate to be spending $$$ on fixtures that are still in good to great shape. Trying to make the decision on some of the depleting stocks of discontinued fixtures and such to see if I could save some $$$ that way. Lacking that, maybe just some spare bulbs.

How much per fixture did you spend upgrading? Did you also need new sockets?


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