# Table Saws In the $500-1000 (but really closer to $500) Price Range



## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Since getting my Kreg tool I've been on a tear. My table saw is an 20+ year old low end Craftsman on a steel base. I think it is time to upgrade.

My first foray was a portable contractor saws: DeWalt 744, Bosch 4100. With stands they are over $500. HD has the DeWalt 745 for $299 put that unit won't accept dado blades.

Researching I've found more alternatives and have become intrigued by the Incra Fence The link is a YouTube video. The website is: http://www.incra.com/product_tsf_main.htm

I'm now focused on a few options. Note: my observations from numerous reviews is that rated power or amperage is not the determinant of cutting speed and that smoothness trumps power in most cases.

1) Craftsman 21833, Ridgid R4512, Dayton 4KXD1. Reports have them all being identical although Dayton and Craftsman list the power as 1.75hp and Ridgid as [email protected] (the others say [email protected]). Most owners seem satisfied. I believe it has a cast iron center and formed steel wings. The Ridgid is $529 at HD, the Craftsman is $550 through the 13th, $590 after. The Dayton is in the mid-to-high $600s plus shipping.










2) Steel City 35990 SS/CS/C/CG/G. The first at at Lowes for $620 has formed steel center and sides, the CS has cast center/steel sides, the C is all cast, the CG is cast center/granite sides and the G is all granite. Steel City says the all granite has the least vibration and doesn't corrode. All are rated at 1.5hp. Lowes has the G for $820 and Amazon have the G for $899. The others are at dealers and net of shipping are more. HD has the C and G, each for just under $1000.









3) Steel City 35926. Similar to the 35990G with a 1.75hp motor and a base that looks like a cabinet but is open on the side and has wheels. The base is easier to assemble. $850 at Amazon but out of stock.










4) Steel City 35960 C/G, Craftsman 22116. Similar to the 35926 but with an upgraded fence. The Craftsman has a rear support with miter slot clearence. The Steel City price is $1000, which is probably $1150-1200 with shipping The Craftsman is in store pickup for $950 plus an additional 5% off for using a Sears Card.










Are there models in this price range that should be considered but that I missed?

If the analysis above is correct, the choice is probably between the $529 R4512 at HD, the Steel City 359550SS at Lowes, the 35926 at Amazon, or the 22116 at Sears.

What do you recommend?

I'm making various bookcases, cabinets, racks, etc…organizing 30 years of "stuff".


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

You're to be commended for you doing your homework! You can add the Rikon 10-201 as being about the same saw as the SC 35990C (Woodcraft $900). I'd also give some consideration to the Grizzly G0661 and G0715P. ($924/$824 shipped)

There are pros and cons with each of the saws you've listed, but all have good potential to become good performers, once aligned and fitted with a good blade. These are all a significant step up from a portable jobsite saw. They all have similar duty ratings, but some feature full solid surfaces, better fences, and full enclosures….if budget allows, those are nice features. If not, the R4512 et al are capable saws…..if you do go that route, bring an HF 20% coupon and see if you can get a deal.

If you've got 220v, the Grizzly G1023RL is a significant step up for $1294 to your door….more money, but a heck of a bargain for a 3hp industrial cabinet saw. Just some food for thought.

















Executive decision time!


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## pingpingpang (Dec 11, 2012)

Just FYI
R4512 is on clearance at HD but YMMV

http://slickdeals.net/f/5618526-RIDGID-10-in-13-Amp-Professional-Table-Saw-397-Home-Depot-B-M-only-YMMV

I want to get one but not sure if I can get the package fit in my CR-V


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## Sawdust4Blood (Feb 16, 2010)

I have an older Ridgid that I am very happy with and their customer service is great. I bought mine on a closeout special so it was about $400.

All that being said, if I was shopping for a saw in that range today, I would be looking hard at the Grizzly G0715P ($825 to your door).

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

When you say you are intrigued by the Incra fence, do you mean that you will be considering it for purchase? If so, whatever saw you get will give you a return on the standard fence once you sell it.

I would consider used. I purchased a 1992 3hp Unisaw on Craigslist several years ago because I knew that I'd be accessorizing it with all the Incra gear. Therefore, I was able to put my capital mostly on the saw itself. Whereas a used saw wont have safety features like a riving knife, you can still use splitters.

Regardless, I don't see the logic of paying a grand on a hybrid saw when a couple of bills more will get you the 3hp saw that Scott mentioned. The difference is huge in the power and capability that you gain.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

have you considered the room that the incra needs? its a very good fence but seems to significantly increase the space that needs to be allocated to the saw.

that said, steel city and grizzly are both having sales:

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/pdf/USA2012fall_lowres.pdf

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Christmas/

the 4512 is a great value, especially if you can find a HD that will honor harbor freight's "20% off any single item" coupon. $400 plus tax is a great value for a 10" CI hybrid with 30" of rip capacity, a riving knife, a built in mobile base and ridgid's lifetime service agreement (free parts and labor for life).

the steel city tools are attractive, covered by a five year guaranty and are also available through HD online. and HD online will match the sale prices from the SC website and include free home delivery (at least that's what they told me when oi called and discussed purchasing one of the TSs on sale.

you've focused on some really nice tools from reputable dealers/manufacturers. at least you haven't been sucked in by that "gold standard" in WW BS that powermatic, and it's poor cousion, jet, try to foist on unsuspecting tool snobs.

good luck with your selection process and remember to post pics of the resulting acquisition.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

Go for one of the steel city models or the craftsman; those have cabinet mounted trunions.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

I think the Cman 22116 is the best on that list. it has cabinet mounted trunnions, and can be picked up at the store. (you should verify that it does have cab-mounted Trunnions though as I could be mistaken with the model)


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

There are also Steel City 3hp models in the $1200; the 35618 is $1060 at Amazon with a 50" table and their "industrial fence".

Amazon has the 35990CG-cast iron center, graphite wings-for $699 including shipping. I missed it before because it was out of stock. That may be a better solution that the 35990G ($820 at Lowes) and the 35826 ($850 at Amazon). The CG may eliminate the miter channel changing width issue reported in some reviews.

The Grizzly G0715P is $824 delivered from Grizzly. They are 3 hours away in PA, but it cheaper to have them deliver that cost of the round trip drive. It has a 2hp motor but I wonder if there is any measureable difference between the It has quite a few bad reviews although its specs are good.

The Sears shows the old Steel City blade guard. One concern is not knowing how old the saw is. The ones marketed as Steel City appear to be recently built having the updates. The second issue with the Sears is the warranty; Sears is 1 year, Steel City is 5 years. The third is warranty support. Steel City is reported to provide advice (if you call Canada) and parts rapidly. They don't flinch at replacing damaged granite. Does the same support for the Craftsman model have to go through financially unstable Sears?

My local HD has the R4512 for $499 (one in stock). They may honor Lowes or Harbor Freight coupons. If I can get a 10% Lowes coupon that would be $450, or $250 less than the next option, the Steel City 35990CG at Amazon. That coupon would make the $820 Steel City 35990G (all granite top) $740, or $290 more than the R4512.

The Incra 32" fence is $400, the 52" fence with legs $100 more. The 52" can mount (an admittedly expensive) router table, but that table can make use of the Incra fence (the router fence mounts on the table saw fence).

Two notes. Incra isn't fond of the Steel City saws. On most saws the center section contains the miter grooves, the wings are just for support. On the Steel City saws, the miter grooves separate the wings from the center; the outside of the miter grooves is on the wings. While Steel City uses 4 bolts on both the front and back rails (one on each wing and two on the center), and the R4512 uses 8 on both the front and back rails, the Incra rails use just two bolts.

Incra specifies them to be connected to the center section. On the Steel City saws that center section is narrow. I poster on another forum was concerned about it last year: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/installing-incra-ts-fence-steel-city-table-saw-44966/. Incra told me the same today. The poster referenced another poster's pictures; they show the Incra mounted on a Steel City 35990G using one center and one wing mounting hole.

Incra was also concerned about the threaded blind screw holes on the granite tops. They are inserts. On the cast iron tops the screw holes are in the material and not blind or then mount uses a nut rather than internal threads.

However, the Incra can be easily moved to another table saw; it isn't table saw specific.

Because of limitations the saw will be going to the basement. A bit of a pita getting materials in and out…but necessary. The area the saw ill go is 66"x96". There is space in front of that, but not 'dedicated' to the saw. As a result, a saw where the legs are assembled separately will be a lot easier to get into basement; the cabinet saws often have very heavy center sections.

I will need to run a new circuit for the saw if it will draw 15A or 20A. It probably doesn't make any difference if it is 240v or 120v from a cost or complexity standpoint.

Thanks for all the feedback,

David


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

One note: the Steel City doesn't mount the wings like other saws.

On the Grizzly and R4512 the wings are mounted to the center section through bolts between their interface. On the 35990C/G/CG models the wings mount on the motor housing in a manner similar to the center section.

Mounting the Incra rail on the wing isn't a matter of strength, but just a matter of alignment. If the alignment is within .001-.002", does it matter? Note: the center section itself is truer than that.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

If you're going to run wire, I'd definitely wire it for 220v….might even be cheaper if it means smaller gauge wire. Plus it'll leave open 120v outlets for other things, and there's likely to be less voltage drop. All the saws mentioned will run on 220v.

The issues with the G0715P were mainly issues with early models….alignment would shift when the blade height changed. The same issues also pertained to the early Ridgid R4512 and Cman 21833, which share similar guts under the hood. Supposedly those have all been resolved.

I'm seeing the SC 35618 for $1517 shipped on Amazon…. $1060 delivered would be a screaming buy signal in my book.


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## MR_Cole (Jun 1, 2012)

If you really want the incra fence, I would say go for the ridgid and upgrade it. There are thousands of people out there who turn out beautiful furniture with bench top saws, so i dont see any need for the incra. I say get the ridgid and put a delta fence on it. http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-t30.html


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

I'll let Knotscott take this one. I find it impossible to recommend a $500 TS in any seriousness. I apologize, but I am trying to be honest. The TS is the mainstay of most WW shops and to shortchange this piece is rather telling in where the rest of the shop equipment is heading. Yeah, I know that/this is a harsh statement, but the truth can sometimes be a bitter pill. and sometimes it is difficult to swallow that you have to give up on owning a quality piece of equipment because of a lack of $$$$. It happens, but please to not give in to sacrificing quality over quantity. Just my opinion, but please consider what I am sharing…


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

First, I made an error on the $1069 saw…or at least I think I did. The 3hp is going to be $1200.

Mike, all of these saws are full of compromises. The R4512 is $680 if you buy it from Grainger with a Dayton label. It is comparable in weight and power to the other 120V saws. It has formed metal wings, questionable fence. Owners are happy to get it for the price. Several posters have said it has the same mechanicals as the Grizzly although the Grizzly with its cabinet and cast iron wings is over 100lbs heavier.

The two big knocks on Steel City are miter slots that change width and get a taper as the wings are leveled and a marginal instruction manual. At $824 delivered, I would probably opt for the Steel City 35990CG ($700), 35990G ($820) or 35926G ($850) first. A 10% coupon probably drops the 35990G to $740.

That still compares to the R4512 at $450-500. The R4512 with a Incra 32" right side fence and miter with fence would be less than $1000.

.


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## Paden501 (Dec 19, 2011)

My vote is for the Ridgid R4512. I have the Craftsman clone (21833) and it's all the saw I could ever need. The only minus to it in my eyes is the fence… Several times I've thought about upgrading it. For my shop, I also like the portability of having the contractors style saw that I can roll around when I need space.

Regardless of price, if I had to do it over again I would have bought the Ridgid over the Craftsman though, because of the lifetime service warranty that Ridgid provides. Unfortunately I wasn't that smart when I bought mine.


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## jerkylips (May 13, 2011)

you really didn't say if you're open to looking for a used saw. I would recommend going that route - you'll get more for your money.

If you want to buy new & considering one of the "clone" saws, I'd go with the Ridgid. LSA was already mentioned, but also Home Depot will honor the Harbor Freight 20% one item coupon, which will save you $100ish..


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

David,
I re-read my post above after a good night's sleep, and I apologize for sounding so harsh. I have some other things going on that have distracted me and my attitude and late last night was one of those times.

But still, Knotscott is the goto man on tablesaws and I would trust his advise.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Cole - Find somebody who has an Incra fence and use it for a day before you make that statement.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

I am going to see if HD in NJ will honor the HF coupon. If so, $400 will be hard to beat. The Incra fence will be more than that.

People seem to like the Grizzly and the R4512 (and siblings) that have table mounted trunnions. No one complains, they easily pass the nickel/penny tests, but they have to add vibration to the surface.

Incra sells additional brackets to mount the table/wings to the rails; it would be possible to support the wings with the Incra rails. The owner in this picture has two brackets on the cast iron center and one on each rail, connecting an Incra to an R4512:










It would also be possible to replace the left wing with a router table. The router table/table saw combo can then use the Incra for positioning making very accurate joining.

I found one example of the Incra on a Steel City. Here the owner used tw brackets on the narrow center and one on each wing. I would have probably aligned it with two brackets on the center and then added on on each wing. The Incra kit comes with 6 brackets and other are available for low cost.










Incra also sells the brackets to put a 1 1/16" router table or other table between their rails. That could be used to replace the second steel side on an R4512 with laminated MDF. Not sure if that would be better.

Used isn't really an option. I barely have time to get it assembled. A used on would have to be disassembled and reassembled. Then I would have to deal with any problems. At this end of the range the savings isn't great enough.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Update, HD will take Lowes but not Harbor Freight coupons. R4512 price: $450.

Lowes was back and forth but it looks like it will take Harbor freight. Steel City 35990G (all granite) price: $660.

The finalists. Both are store pickups so shipping isn't an issue. Both are available within a week.

Question:

Both seem to be 1.5hp. Ridgid doesn't list the HP, but everyone says it is the same as Grizzly 0715P.

However, in the R4512 the motor sits in the cabinet. On the 35990G there is a left side motor cover extension. Does that mean the Steel City has a bigger more powerful motor?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

*"...Ridgid doesn't list the HP, but everyone says it is the same as Grizzly 0715P."*

The guts are very similar….possibly the same, but the motors are not the same. The Griz has a 16 amp 2hp motor. The R4512 has a 13 amp 1.5hp motor. The SC 35990G also has a 13 amp 1.5hp motor.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

I think I made a mistake in the last post. Both have left side motor extensions. I had been looking at a picture that showed it during assembly before, and I obviously wasn't paying attention!



















Question:

How important is having a magnetic top? The granite isn't magnetic. Aren't some alignment and hold down fixtures/featherboards magnetic?

Thanks,

David


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification. Do have a recommendation: R4512 ($450) vs. 35990G ($660)?

Is the extra rated power in the "Griz" a meaningful improvement?

In tests of circular saws and jig saws rated power seemed relatively uncorrelated to actual cutting performance. Far more noticeable was vibration/smoothness. Is that also the case for table saws? If so, does having case mounted trunnions always have an advantage? Or does passing the 'nickel' test mean any further reduction isn't meaningful?'

Thanks again,

David


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

It all boils down to preferences. Both saws have similar potential, both saws have pros and cons….setup and blade selection are significant variables that influence the end performance. Weigh out the differences and go with the one that has the most features that are important to you.

The SC has cabinet mounted trunnions that are easier to reach and easier to align. The solid wings on the SC are a plus too IMO. Granite adds a lot of mass (good for stability), it won't rust, it's flatter, but is also more fragile and magnetic featherboards won't stick. Neither has a great fence IMO, but I have a slight preference for the Ridgid fence. The Ridgid Herculift is pretty nice too.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I bought a General Table Saw made in Canada for 300 buckaroos, they list for near 3,000 buckaroos

I bought a Delta Cabinet saw, made in the USA for 250, they list new, for near 2K

I will never have to buy another table saw despite buying a used one.

you might have to …… ?

some thought


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm willing to bet that if I brought either of your choices, to a job site, that by the end of the project, either choice would have aged a century.

My choice would not have aged one day and its half the price : )


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I don't often find myself in agreement with H.Mike, but I do in this case.

I bought the Craftsman 21833 three years ago and paid $409 for it.

I am, at the same time, amazed that anyone can manufacture and sell that much saw for that little money, AND that such a flimsy design, executed in such marginal materials with such shoddy workmanship can actually function at all.

Knowing that the anchor machine of my shop is such a wimpy little saw like machine gives me about the same kind of satisfaction as one gets from tools purchased from the Dollar Store.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Scott, thanks for the input. Other than the tops and the trunnions I can't think of any difference between them. One other difference in the tops is that SC supports the wings on the cabinet; on the R4512 they are bolted to the center. However, SC spits the miter groove between the wings and center, which as caused some people to have a taper in their miter groove.

The fence isn't an issue; I will mount an Incra fence soon after getting it. I'll probably wait just long enough to determine if I can fit the 92" rails. (my guess is yes).

I was thinking of adding a router table to the TS. A left mount table would replace the left wing, the right one would after wing. On the R4512, that could replace one of the wings. It seems that would add lots of capability in conjunction with the Incra fences.

Thanks again,

David

P.S. 
If using the included fences, wouldn't least expensive be the $825 Grizzly G0715P? With SC you have to get the [email protected]$1000 to get their "industrial fence".


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## pumperdude (Nov 15, 2012)

The Incra fence is pricey , but it is definately a case of getting what you pay for. I have the 715 Griz with the TSLS 32". Set the cursor on 3" and make a rip. Get out your calipers and check it. It will be 3"plus or minus a few thousanths as advertised. Good point about having a non magnetic top. You will miss out on some sweet feather boards… http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2005970/22521/magswitch-universal-magnetic-featherboard.aspx


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Mike, Crank, and…well…the other guy,

While used is often the best value, it really isn't an option for me.

The stock fence isn't an issue…I'm getting the Incra. Think of this as a saw to work with the Incra.

My duty cycle probably won't wear the unit out. If it does, I can deal with it then, the fence can be moved to a new saw. Both the SC and Ridgid have fairly long warranties.

Crank, can you elaborate on what was wrong with the 21833?

pumperdude, you are right about the magnetic top. And as Steve indicated, granite is more fragile although easily replaced. What did you have before the 0715? How important is the Incra to your satisfaction? Does having table mounted trunnions impact you adversely in any perceivable way?

One other option, the cast iron center/granite wing Steel City 35990CG for $700 at Amazon. However, the narrow center section on the Steel City saws may still limit magnetic hold down tools.

At least one R4512 owner on the forums fitted cast iron wings from another saw.










Note, you don't always get what you pay for. Some high priced products are poor values. Some low priced products are hidden gems. Here it seems the satisfaction with there sub-$1000 table saws is highly dependent on the person's ability to set it up. The product differences seem small.


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## bigkev (Mar 16, 2011)

I can't say much about the models you're looking at as I have never owned one. I purchased a Grizzly 1023slw used for 450.00. I had to replace the arbor bearings but that was no issue. I couldn't be happier but maybe you are not interested in buying used.

I do know that I have read a LOT of posts on here about table saws and in my opinion noone has more knowledge of this topic than knotscott. He won't lead you wrong.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Next saw I will consider used….for now….

This is a review of someone installing the Bench Dog cast iron router table insert on the left side of an R4512. It includes a video showing the details of his installation.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3ITZ3RM0HGO7E/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3ITZ3RM0HGO7E


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

The Craftsman 21833 and the Ridgid 4512 both have/had the exact same problem, because they are the exact same saw; just different paint. I think they have mostly resolved it because I don't hear many people complain about it like I used to.

The problem is/was that when you raise and lower the blade, the arbor tilts and rotates about its vertical axis. This means that it is impossible to align the blade to always be parallel to the miter slot and fence. You can align it perfectly and then the next time you change the blade height it is no longer parallel. And, going back to the original height makes no difference. It's like something moves or shifts in the trunnions alignment and won't shift back on its own.

Also, the riving knife has a tendency to not be in alignment with the blade after this shift. Often I'll be making a cut and my workpiece will run into the leading edge of the riving knife and get stuck. At that point you can push harder and hope it jams on through without loosing too many fingers, or pull it back and hope it doesn't kick back and impale your narrow ass to the wall, or balance on one foot and bump the off switch with your knee and then wait an eternity for the damn thing to coast to a stop..

Otherwise, it's a nice quite, smooth and powerful saw. That just makes it all the more frustrating to be so close to good, but have that fatal flaw.

By the way, I don't have a problem with the stock fence. Mine has been no problem. The fence and the miter slots stay in perfect alignment. And, I can't say the stamped steel wings cause me much grief either. Cast iron would be nicer, but I'd rather have the steel wings than the honeycomb or open grid type.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

They are the same saw. I will research the status of that particular problem; failure to keep blade alignment would be a show stopper. Steel City has a similar problem with the miter slot having a taper after aligning the wings; they made a design decision to split the wing/center at the miter slot.

The saw that is most interesting is the SawStop which stops the blade in .05 sec after a finger touches it. However, their models start at effectively over $2000 for a saw in this category.

Another option is the Steel City 35990C which would be $740 at Lowes. That is fully $290 more than R4512.

The R4511 appears to have been a Steel City model with all granite top. There is a used one about 2 hours away, asking price $400. I don't think it had a riving knife or the split blade guard.


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## Pete_Jud (Feb 15, 2008)

David, I paid 500 bucks for my Jet CTAS10, 3 hp cab saw, with the long rails, in great shape, and I figure it will last the rest of my life. It's a 700 lb monster, so moving it is a pain, but Craigslist can be your friend.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Correct on the Ridgid 4511. It was a great saw and what I wanted, but they were discontinued just as I came into the market. It does not have the riving knife, but, due to the granite top, it had cabinet mounted trunions.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't have a table saw (yet), but wanted to chime in regarding the used vs. new discussion. I'm not sure if this is the case for others here, but the one thing that has kept me from buying an older-model or used saw is that they often lack modern safety features. If I recall correctly, it was only within the past year or two that legislation went into effect requiring certain safety features on all new saws (riving knife, and maybe also anti-kickback pawls-but the pawls might have already been standard before). Personally, my livelihood is dependent on me having all my fingers, so I'm trying to put off buying a table saw until I can afford a SawStop (edit: or maybe a Whirlwind because I plan on being careless, but because I don't think anyone can be too careful; and the reviews I've seen here and elsewhere suggest it's a well-designed saw even without its namesake safety feature.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Crank, the R4511 seems to be equivalent to the Steel City 35990G which my wife thinks we can get for $660. However, the granite top means no magnetic hold-downs/featherboards.

Rob, the safety situation is even worse. SawStop uses sends a small electrical current through the blade. If a person comes in contract with the blade it drives a sacrificial aluminum block into the blade causing it to stop and retract with in .005 sec. about 1/3rd of a revolution. Every saw should have this. The Sawstop website has lots of videos by people who lost fingers telling their story.

However, the comparable Sawstop would be over $2000.

http://www.sawstop.com/


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## bigkev (Mar 16, 2011)

My saw does not have a riving knife but I did install a micro jig splitter I use most of the time. I take time to ensure the saw is set up right and use push sticks when necessary. For some reason I fear my jointer more than my table saw. I don't want to get into the whole Sawstop thing again, I just think with the proper setup, training and focus most table saws are safe. Yes, there are folks who have been caught by the blade. But if the truth be told, they weren't doing something right or were not properly trained. I also believe more folks are injured by kickback than are by the blade itself. I don't personally know anyone who has had an incident with a table saw blade and I know a lot of folks who use one regularly. If you don't trust your skills, save and buy the Sawstop. I personally would not use any tool if I thought I had to rely on that small electrical current to keep me safe. I'd rather trust my skills. My two cents.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

*"the R4511 seems to be equivalent to the Steel City 35990G"*

Both have cabinet mounted trunnions and share some lineage, but the design is fairly different. The R4511, 35925, 35930, CM22116 all have the same guts, with a one piece cast blade shroud/arbor carriage. The 35990 deviates from that design a bit.


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## Duality240 (Nov 24, 2012)

I bought the R4512 a couple of months ago and I am relatively happy with it. My biggest complaint is the fence, it constantly needs adjusted. So if you go with the 4512, consider what the cost of a nice fence will add to the price. What sold me on the Ridgid (I looked at almost the exact same saws you did) was the lifetime service agreement Ridgid offers. I got mine for $499 and I wish I had known that HD honors the harbor freight coupons. Good luck with your purchase and let us know what you decided.


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## Planeman40 (Nov 3, 2010)

Yup, go the used route! For $500 to $600 you should be able to get a good Delta Unisaw or even a good Powermatic with some looking. And Yes, wire for 220V. You won't be sorry.

Planeman


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I bought my used 3 hp Unisaw in good condition for $500 several years ago with the knowledge that I would install the Incra fence. Because the Unisaw I purchased was priced lower because of the condition of the fence that came with it, I benefited in that regard.

Table saws are simple things, really. Buying used provides great value at low risk, as long as the machine isn't obviously abused.

As a result, with the Incra gear, I have a machine that i'd put up against any table saw in the $1000 to $1200 range. And when you consider the router accessories I have with it, even a spanking brand new Sawstop doesn't have the functionality of my setup.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Planeman, I'll need to put in a new breaker and run a wire along the basement ceiling either voltage, but the used saw is not an option. I don't have the ability to get them into my basement nor the time or space to disassemble them and reassemble and fix them. Once I have a saw, that could be a good project in the future, maybe.

Note: I've bought lots of other stuff used. I have a Dingo mini track loader, a soil cultivator attachment, an Aeravator aerating attachment, and an Exmark 60" Turf Tracer mower all bought used. The mower lists for $8500, sells for $7600, and I paid $1400 delivered. However, all required maintenance, some extensive. Used has pluses and minuses, and with the table saw, I can't deal with those now.

Duality, I will be adding the Incra fence, so that isn't an issue. You might want to check it out. They have a 10% discount through Christmas.

knotscott, where those changes (between the SC 35930 and 35990) good ones or bad ones?

Cosmicsniper, I'm sure you have a great saw…but being able to pick between the used ones, disassemble, and reassemble is more than I am able to sign on to.

BigKev, my wife now wants to see the SawStop. It is quite expensive ($1870 with one cast iron/one aluminum wing and wheels) an hour away in Pa. (Grizzly is 3 hours away, less expensive to have it shipped). They have 26 testimonials online from people who were injured (most lost fingers, about 1/3rd were professionals). It is similar to motorcycling, auto racing, or just driving in very bad weather…accidents are infrequent but when they occur they are catastrophic.


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## toolie (Mar 16, 2011)

*It does not have the riving knife*

unfortunately, crank49 is incorrect re: riving knife on ridgid 4511:

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/R4511-Table-Saw/EN/index.htm

they call it a spreader but it is a real riving knife.

*Both the SC and Ridgid have fairly long warranties.*

davidnj….unfortunately, this is, technically, incorrect. steel city has a 5 years guaranty and ridgid has a 3 year guaranty. ridgid offers a lifetime service agreement (registration with program by original owner is REQUIRED. no registration, no lsa coverage) providing free parts and labor on repairs for life.

*which as caused some people to have a taper in their miter groove.*

davidnj…........FTR, this is adjustable to eliminate that taper, according to steel city.

davidnj…........re: store managers balking @ the HF coupon, two things have worked repeatedly for me. (1) try a different HD. (2) call corporate CS, several times if necessary. i've had corporate CS reps call store managers/ASMs and instruct them to accept the coupon, regardless of the store manager's refusal. hey, $100 will buy one, possibly more blades, or contribute towards that incra fence you want.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Just an update on status.

Ridgid R4512: Trying to determine if the blade alignment problem was resolved. From what I'm reading, my guess is not. ($450)

Steel City 35990 series: While Steel City favors granite tops, the variety of magnetic hold down devices and feather boards (all finger saving devices) seems to indicate in favor of a cast iron top. That would indicate only the 35990C model, the most expensive, or possibly the 35990CS (similar top to the R4512), or 35990SS (all stamped, is that viable?) would work. 35990C ($825), 35990SS ($555), 35950 ($1000).

Sawstop contractor saw: similar to the Steel City 35990C in functionality, a few more upscale details in addition to the safety feature. ($1870)

If granite is eliminated, then the Grizzly G0715P at $825 delivered probably should also be on the list. Its stock fence is better than the ones above except the 35950. Sawstop adds $200 for a better fence.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@David - What disassemble and reassemble are you talking about? It's a used saw, not a renovation project. And with the Incra, you'll be doing a certain amount of customization anyway. And last I checked, new saws require some assembly.

If you live in a good Craigslist area, it just takes a little patience. Many such saws aren't very old at all and a fraction of their NIB retail prices.

But it's just a suggestion…a great way to get into a 3 hp saw without spending too much money. And don't undersell the importance of a 3 hp machine. It's a world of difference.


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## rexb (Mar 28, 2012)

Hi David. I just read through (most) of the above comments, and I see the Grizzly G0715P being brought up from time to time, but you never seem to give much thought to it. I own this saw and just love it (my review). I am not the most experienced person out there, but I think it is a great saw for the value. Also, as others have indicated, I think the problems with that saw have been weeded out, and it seems to get good reviews these days. Just my humble opinion.

One other thing I noticed above:

Is the extra rated power in the "Griz" a meaningful improvement?

In tests of circular saws and jig saws rated power seemed relatively uncorrelated to actual cutting performance. Far more noticeable was vibration/smoothness. Is that also the case for table saws?

You are not comparing apples to apples here. For a small universal-motor tool (circular saw or jig saw) a higher horsepower rating can simply mean the motor turns faster, so you really have to look at the current draw. For a large induction-motor tool (table saw) they all turn at the same speed, so more horsepower means more cutting power, plain and simple. I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I didn't see any discussion about it above.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Rex, is the difference between 1.5hp, 1.75hp, and 2hp really noticeable? If you didn't know what the power was, could you tell by just using it? My guess is the difference is too small to distinguish without a back-to-back comparison.

In your Grizzly review you said: ""The included blade guard seems very clunky, so I haven't ever used it. "

Could you elaborate on that?

Thanks,

David

P.S.
The SawStops in this class have table mounted truninons.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Can't comment on some of the saws, but will throw my input on the Steel City cast iron top saws. I wouldn't even consider the 35990SS as a possibility. This saw is only made so that Lowes & HD can have a price point saw, it's not even available to independent dealers. At about 100lbs lighter than the 35990C, it just doesn't have the mass to resist vibration and movement. l wouldn't want the 35990CS for the same reason. The little bit of extra money for the full cast iron or granite is worth the investment.

All that said, I also consider the step up to the 35950 to be totally worth it. It is obviously a step up in price, as well, but I think it is one of the best hybrid saw values out there.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Why do you consider the 35950 better?

Talking with Steel City it was my understanding the different 35990s varied in their tops, the 35926 added a psuedo cabinet bottom and a 1.75hp motor vs. 1.50hp, and the 35950s added their 'industrial' fence, the option of 52" right side rails, an optional cast iron top, and possibly 4" wide wings to the 35926.

Since I wasn't going to use the fence and the cast iron top was necessary for all the hold down devices, that limited the selection of Steel City table saws to the the 35990C and the 35950. If granite was in play than the 35990G and 35926 would be less expensive alternatives.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

You have the upgrades correct. The advantages of the 35950 over the 35990 are slightly higher power motor, full cabinet with better dust collection, larger top, and a much better fence system. The 35950 seems more stable, as well, probably due to a bit of extra weight and the full cabinet. IMHO those upgrades are worth the extra cost. The biggest upgrade, however, is the fence system which wouldn't be a benefit if you will be getting an Incra. It would be worth more if you sold the fence or would make the saw worth more if you upgraded to a 3HP cabinet saw in the future, kept the Incra fence and replaced the original fence on the saw.

When typing the earlier post, I was going to mention the 35926, as you could save quite a bit and would be replacing the fence anyways, but you had stated you wanted cast iron.

You have several good choices available, so at this point you could pick one and probably be happy with the upgrade. Just don't get bogged down so much by the details you end up with "paralysis by analysis". My earlier post was mainly just to try and steer you away from the SS version of the 35990.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

*"knotscott, were those changes (between the SC 35930 and 35990) good ones or bad ones?"*

I'm not overly familiar with the 35990 (as in, I've never dug around inside one), but from a glance, I'd call the design a step back from the SC 35930/22116/R4511 design. That doesn't make it a bad saw, but IMHO the design isn't as slick as the one used on the other Steel City/Orion saws I mentioned. The R4512's design isn't quite as slick as those saws either, so IMO that particular aspect is a wash in a comparison between the R4512 and the 35990.

*"...is the difference between 1.5hp, 1.75hp, and 2hp really noticeable? "*

The step from 1.5hp to 2hp is about 33% more HP (if the ratings are legit). If all else is equal, it should be noticeable….not night and day different, but noticeable. Like the difference between going from a 1/8" full kerf blade to a comparable 3/32" TK blade. The "perceived" cutting power of the saw involves more than just motor power. Optimizing the setup and blade choice can make a similar difference, but having more actual motor power is rarely a bad thing.


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## rexb (Mar 28, 2012)

David,

I have not used a 1.5 hp saw extensively, so I can't comment as to whether I could feel any difference from my 2 hp saw. I did call the blade guard clunky, but in all fairness I doubt any saw out there has a built in blade guard that I would like. One of the main reasons I have never used it is because I use a crosscut sled *very* extensively, and that would require me to be constantly removing and reinstalling it. Instead I just leave the riving knife on the saw *at all times*. The riving knife on the G0715P is very nice. I find, like most people, that I am much more likely to use safety devices that aren't a hassle.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Rex, is this your blade guard:









It does look clunky. These are the ones on the Steel City, SawStop, and Bosch:









The fence looks nice.

The wife is definitely leaning toward the Sawstop. It's main feature is the patented human body part detection and near instant blade stop and retraction. The quality is undoubtedly high. However the design is relatively vanilla, for example table mounted trunnions. There is a $700 difference between their 'contractor saw' (comparable to the 35990C) and their cabinet with the 1.75hp motor.$500 if cast iron wings are added to the contractor saw. The 35990C comparable model would cost $1800 or $1950, depending if you added the wheels.

I've been told that an appliance cart should make it straightforward to get a 300lb center section into the basement. They rent for $14/day at Home Depot.

Does the cabinet significantly reduce vibration and dust? Is a dust collecting blade guard with overarm dust collection tube significantly reduce dust? I don't recall seeing those being used in any of the woodworker's pictures of their own saws.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

The entry level Saw Stop contractor saw is the least expensive way to add their safety technology, but IMHO it doesn't offer much saw at that price…..not much of a fence, steel wings, outboard motor, etc (~ $1750 minimum). Essentially you're buying the safety device, and getting a reasonably well made, but poorly accessorized $700 old style contractor saw that's been trained not to bite. The safety technology means different things to different people, so I can't debate what it means to you, but I can argue that the same $1700-$2500 will a pretty slick tricked out cabinet saw setup. The step up to the SS PCS and ICS at least gives you a heck of a nice saw with little cost added in for the safety device.










OR


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

When I talked with them both Woodcraft and SawStop were moving me to the PCS version. That version is $2300. The contractor version with cast iron wings is $1800. Both have a 1.75hp motor. The shipping weights are 280lb and 390lb; however when the cast iron wings are added to the contractor saw that gap is probably halved. The contractor model would also mean I could avoid ordering a left side wing if I put the router table there.

There are the 'get to know your saw' pictures of the three SawStop models. Left to right: contractor, professional, industrial. The pictures are the same in the professional model with the 1.75hp and 3hp motors.




























The prices, without wheels but with two cast iron wings, are $1800 for the 1.75hp contractor saw, $2300 for the 1.75hp professional saw, and $2729 for the 3hp professional saw. I would probably pick them up at Woodcraft for a de facto $50-100 shipping charge; Woodcraft lists a charge of $270 to ship it. AW Meyer has a $25-50 shipping charge. (Woodcraft is a 15 minute longer but much more pleasant drive).

My wife seems set on this. This morning she read off a list of my urgent care/ER visits over the past 20 years.


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## jerkylips (May 13, 2011)

You wanted to spend $500 on a table saw & your wife's trying to convince you to spend $2000+ ? How's your relationship with your wife? Are things rocky in any way? If so, I may look her up…


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## SNB72 (Dec 25, 2011)

I would also go the used route. I purchased a nice Rigid last year, with all cast center and wings, for $300 in almost new condition on CL. With a nice blade it does everything I could ever need and is smooth as can be.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

SNB72, I'm sure you have a nice saw…it sounds like a R4510.

Jerky, I'll tell my wife she can have a new boyfriend.  She sees the huge safety advance of the SawStop and the injury risk of a table saw, which is pretty evident. Here is a report on the injuries: http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/os/statsaws.pdf.

The cost of one medium injury is equal to the price difference, the cost of a severe injury (amputations) is much higher.

Right now it wouild seem the contenders are the Rigid [email protected]$450, the Steel City [email protected]$740-$830, the Steel City [email protected], and the SawStop Professional [email protected]$2300.

Question, the SawStop seems to raise the blade my moving the whole carriage up and down on a track, is that done with other saws?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

"Question, the SawStop seems to raise the blade my moving the whole carriage up and down on a track, is that done with other saws?"

It is now, but it wasn't always the case….the introduction of the riving changed many of the designs to a vertical lift mechanism, from what was formerly a swing arm.


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## jmaichel (May 22, 2010)

This is an easy one! If your wife is encouraging you to get a Sawstop and you have the means to do so, then get the Sawstop. If you buy something else, in about 6 months you will have wished you bought a Sawstop and may have buyer's remorse. I am not always a huge proponent of the "buy once" mentality but in your case it makes sense.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

knotscott, are all the other ones being considered swing arm designs? Is the SawStop really a good saw at its lofty price point? It would seem the Gizzly 1023RLW at $1400 (delivered) has a 3hp, decent fence, vertical lift, and a builtin right side router table.

Powermatic's contractor saw at $1600 also has the vertical lift. At $2300 there are a huge number of saws from Jet and Grizzly.

Do any of the Steel City saws have a vertical lift?

My wife flinched at the SawStop $2300 price…but then said she wanted her husband to have all his fingers at the divorce.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

jmaichel, I wouldn't miss the SawStop in 6 months if I had a comparably featured saw. I would miss it on the trip to the ER with my fingers in a plastic bag.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

*knotscott, are all the other ones being considered swing arm designs? Is the SawStop really a good saw at its lofty price point?*

Not to my knowledge, but I don't know them all in detail off the top of my head….I'd guess that most have gone to a vertical lift mechanism…take a look at the exploded pictorial in the online manuals or online pics. IMO having a swing arm wouldn't be a valid reason to not consider buying a particular saw. The old Unisaws, PM66, original General 350. It's pretty well proven technology… it just makes adding a riving knife more of a challenge for the manufacturer, but several have figured it out. I know the current Grizzly G0690 has a swing arm.

Whether or not the Saw Stop is a "good" saw is a matter of opinion. The PCS and ICS are considered extremely good saws…almost universally (there's one in every crowd!), regardless of the safety feature, but it's rare to hear a complaint. The contractor saw is well built, but the basic version doesn't offer much value IMO aside from the safety feature. If it came with a better fence and solid wings, I'd say $1700 was a fair price for it, but as is with that humble fence and steel wings (safety feature aside), I don't think it offers anywhere near as good of a saw for the money as Grizzly, Steel City, Shop Fox, Jet, GI, and others….the underpinnings are very nice, but the topside features of the actual saw are weak IMO. Others will disagree…it's just my opinion.

With that said, it doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it or that it's not a viable purchase for you….it's a unique and personal decision that we each make based on our own circumstances.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

From the manuals I got by analysis above: Powermate contractor, Grizzly 1023RL is the entry point for vertical lift.

If cast iron top is a requirement, which it seems to be from a hold down perspective, then The Grizzly G0715P ($825), G1023RL ($1294), and G1023RLW ($1400) would seem to be the leaders. The first is 2hp; the next 2 have 3hp, vertical lift, cabinet trunnions. The W has an 18" cast iron wing with router table.

You recommended the 1023RL in your first post, it took me 4 days to understand why you said that. And the RLW adds a cast iron router table for $100. There a few weakness, such as the blade guard, but it appears Leeway has a replacement: http://leestyron.com/sharkgriz.php. That has a dust collection port which Grizzly doesn't offer. The G0715P, probably target more to people like me, may be the least expensive saw with an all cast iron top. The $475 difference between them is significant, but less so for a once in 10-to-20 year purchase.

However, there is the safety question. All of the new saws offer some safety improvements over older saws. Roller hold-downs, magnetic featherboards, crosscut sleds, and fancy push sticks (e.g. the Microjig GRR-Ripper). Do these mitigate the risks a SawStop addresses?

The report I linked earlier estimated about 35k incidents/yr with about 10% being amputations and another 7% being avulsions (skin torn away revealing bone/muscle). Nearly all were pushing the work by hand. People over age 64 represented nearly 1/3rd of the respondents. Pros represented about 1/2 of the videos on SawStop's website; the testimonials talked about reduced worker's comp insurance costs. But were they using the snappy device's a hobbyist might use?

All very perplexing.There are pros in the fingers saved picture gallery. This is an example of an finger/blade injury on a Sawstop:










The Ridgid R4512 and its siblings are widely accused of changing blade alignment when blade height is changed. Now, a bit more familiar with the mechanism, I may have a hypothesis: is the swing arm used to raise and lower the blade on those saws or the rods they pivot not true and uniform? That could be an issue given the low price and difficulties supervising Chinese manufacture. Note: while the G0715P is made in China, Grizzly makes a big point in saying the G1023RL and G690 are made in Taiwan.

Note: The SawStop contractor saw is $1600, $1800 with cast iron wings. I think the stock wings are aluminum and not flat (they have "SawStop" embossed on them).


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## dnick (Nov 17, 2011)

For what it's worth, I've had the Craftsman 22116 for a little more than a year now & I am really happy with it. It was a replacement for another Craftsman hybrid. They originally offered me the 21833 but I wouldn't accept it. 150 pounds lighter, not as much power. I paid money to upgrade to the 22116. It does everything I ask it to do. Never used the other saws you mention, so I can't comment on them.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

The Ridgid and its siblings (actually the other saws were on the market a year or two before the Ridgid) do use the vertical lift mechanism and one of the main reasons is to simplify the riving knife.

To be useful, the riving knife has to be close to the blade and travel up and down with the blade.
- Also there are times when you want the riving knife just level with or slightly below the top of the blade; like to make a non-through cut such as a rabbit or dado. 
- If the blade and riving knife were both mounted on a swingarm with a single pivot point, the elevation of the riving knife would change relative to the blade as the blade height is changed. 
- It can be done but it requires a parallelogram linkage which is more complicated than just moving the whole arbor straight up and down on guide rods.

The whole thing is the verticlal lift can be whimpy or beefy. Guess which one you get for $450.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Crank, I don't think so. If you look at this R4512 you will see a threaded section of of the height adjustment shaft in the arbor raising support bracket:










While discussing this saw, the $20 PALS kit should make alignment easier: http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/743


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## pwgphoto (May 1, 2012)

My two cents, which are worth about a penny, since I am still pretty new to woodworking, is either get a nicely equipped Grizzly Cabinet Saw or spend the extra money on a Sawstop Cabinet Saw. I currently own a Craftsman 22114 1.5 HP Hybrid Saw. It has solid cast iron wings and no riving knife. The fence is not the greatest, but I have seen worse. I got it for $400 new, on clearance at Sears. I consider this in the Ridgid R2412 range, but mine has CI wings.

I bought my saw because it was on sale and was in my budget for a new woodworker who does not make a lot of money. It can struggle at times cutting thicker material and I wish it had more power and a better fence. These are things you get on a cabinet saw. I am still building up my shop and someday I want to upgrade to a better saw.

To me, when I do upgrade, like I said it will be a choice between a Grizzly cabinet saw or a Sawstop. It will also be something with at least 3HP. I will have to upgrade my electric in the shop, but I know down the line, I don't want to worry about cutting thicker stock. So the main choice for me, unless I hit the lottery, do I spend 1400+ on a Grizzly or go deeper in hock and get a $3000 Sawstop 3hp cabinet saw. I would not even consider a contractor style saw and especially not the SS one. Too much money for a basic saw with the great safety feature, but might leave me wanting in the sawing department. After a year+ of getting into the hobby, I know the features I want and they are in cabinet saw. So it would be either weighing the safety vs the money. To be honest I think I would rather be safe and make a years more payments and get the Sawstop with the features I think I need.

I do reserve the right to put off the future Sawstop purchase if I find an awesome cabinet saw for $500 on Craigslist, haha.

This also assumes that you can afford to buy a $1500-3000 saw, even on credit, without putting your family in a financial hardship. There is nothing wrong with buying used or new $500 saw. Just as long as you realize you might want to upgrade someday. I would seriously look at the Ridgid if I was buying today and couldn't swing a cabinet saw.

Good luck and let use know what you decide.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

pwgphoto, from what I've read the 22114 is an earlier model Steel City saw and is pretty decent. A bit older, it lacks some of the current safety technology and has a right tilt blade.

My question is: what did you have trouble cutting with 1.5hp? What blade where you using? Was the blade aligned with the miter slot and fence?

3hp reviews indicate most models can handle anything at hand feed and even roller feed speeds without an much complaint. There are aren't that many complaints about 1.5hp models. I'm curious about your complaints.

I'm still confused about the real risk of blade contact if you use push sticks like the GRR-Ripper and hold down devices like the hold rollers and magnetic featherboards if the risk is minimal. Then there are all the reports of commerical woodworking shops having the same problem, shops where everyone should be experienced and safety procedures followed. Losing one finger because we didn't spend $1200 would seem like a bad wager.

The Sawstop PCS 1.75hp is $2300, the 3hp is $2730.

BTW, tailgate delivery could add another $75-to-$100 to the Grizzlys.

One other question, the contractor saws and the SawStops of the wheels integrated with the cabinet/legs. When the unit is on the ground it is on the ground and the wheels are off the ground. The ShopFox mobility platform looks like it is always on the wheels and that the frame between the wheels and the cabinet is substantially less rigid than the cabinet base. Is that correct?


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## MatthewW (Aug 30, 2011)

I think you'll be happy with any of them that have:

1. A full cast iron top and wings. (I haven't worked with a granite top in all honestly, but the ones played with seemed to be a bit of a compromise. They haven't been out long enough to build a reputation that I know of. Just don't go with stamped wings.)

2. A cabinet mounted trunnion system without known faults. (You don't set it up often, but it's way easier when you do. Most saws with this setup also tend to be a little beefier.)

3. A good customer service rep. (You seem like the type of person who will want a quick and detailed response when you have any doubts about setup or function. Just call customer service and ask a few questions to make sure that they aren't hard to reach.)

If you're looking at a Sawstop then I'm getting jealous. It would be great to have, but my old Powermatic 66 still does the job. As far as the motor goes, I noticed a big difference going from a 1.5hp contractors saw to a 3 hp cabinet saw (not just in power mind you), but not as much going from the 3hp up to a 5hp Powermatic 72 I worked with, the larger table was nice however. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should get the biggest motor you can, but that shouldn't really be the deciding factor. Once you get up into the 3hp range, there isn't much that will slow it down, aside from ripping thick hardwoods. Even if you only end up with a 1.5hp motor you'll be happy, just as long as the saw is accurate, stable, easy to adjust and reliable. If you need to, just go slower and take your time, this is a hobby right?

I hope this helps you, good luck on your search for the perfect saw!


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

Any saw in the SawStop range will be a one shot deal. The problem is getting stuck with older technology. Technology moves relatively slowly here, and the new features probably won't be that critical.

That would leave power as the big option. The G1023RL is about $475 more than the G0715P. It goes from 2hp to 3hp and includes a major chassis upgrade. The SawStop PCS is the same saw in 1.75hp and 3hp versions, the engine and maybe 1/2 dozen other small pieces being the only differences other than the price: $430 more.

Is that a necessary $500 to spend.

And yes…hobbyist…really making a bookcases and storage cabinets we desperately need. My estimate is no more than 200 hours/yr. And probably less is subsequent years. It depends on how well my skills develop. A key is that it isn't the equipment that is the limiting factor. If the saw can match the accuracy of the fence, it should be ok. If vibration or inability to hold an accurate adjustment or alignment is going to limit the saw, that is a problem. Most of my current projects are more home maintenance where a miter saw is used for cutting.

A week ago I didn't know about the SawStop. But once you know about it is hard to ignore. For reference, we were buying cars with stability control and side curtain airbags since 2000. My SUV gets winter tires from late November to early April. We make decisions in the interest of safety. Similar to not having winter tires, the accident you have on a freezing winter morning before dawn on black ice is far more costly that the tires.

The SawStop PCS 3hp is $1300 more than the Grizzly G1023RL. I had wanted to add a left side router table and will add the Incra fence ($500 + $270 for the router fence). Those would be added to any saw I'd get.

Just $2730+$200 for wheels and $70 or $90 for its safety brakes is far more than the $500 we had originally hoped to spend.


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## MatthewW (Aug 30, 2011)

It seems like you're pretty set on the Sawstop from a safety perspective. I really think that's a wise decision if you can make it happen. I just don't think you'll be too upset if you only get the 1.75hp motor.

On one hand you have to spend about 25% more upfront and hire a contractor to rewire correct? That's a lot of extra cash if your only out there a few hours a week making projects that don't involve much thick stock ripping.

On the other hand you can look at this as a one time investment and keep it for a long long time. It would be nice to have the extra power if you really feel like you need to "maximize production" or if you see yourself doing lots of ripping or milling work.

Just my 2 cents.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

FWIW, I believe the R4512, 21833, and G0715P use a swing arm design for the arbor. The G0661/G0713 and G1023RL use the vertical screw.

G0661:


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

The swing arm, if done well, is fine. There are two decision making aids I like that are appropriate here.

The first is binary comparison. Rather than look at 10 options, look at any two. If A is always selected over B, and C is always selected over A, then you no longer need to consider B. There is a possibility of creating a loop; however, by the time that occurs the selection is down to 2 to 4 items. For example, the equivalently equipped R4512 and Sawstop Contractor saw would always choose paying $1300 more for the Sawstop, then the R4512 would not need to be considered.

The second is what would a replacement decision be. If A was already owned and in service, would you replace it with B? For example, let's say the Sawstop (SS) contractor saw beat the R4512, the SS 1.75hp professional beat the SS contractor, the SS 3hp professional beat the 1.75hp professional but the $450 R4512 beat the $2930 (including wheels) SS 3hp professional. Then the decision can be changed to: if the R4512 was already purchased and in service, would you buy an SS 3hp professional to replace it?

Both the R4512 and the SS contractor come with steel wings. Both can handle a left side router table (the SS Professional can't). If a steel router table and a steel wing are added to both, and assuming the R4512 blade alignment problem is solvable or has been solved, would the R4512 and CNS contractor be acceptable from a woodworking standpoint?

That brings us to where is SawStop in the table saw landscape. Here is a Fine Woodworking piece on the $1.5M Osorio case:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41527/appeals-court-upholds-osorio-tablesaw-verdict-feds-consider-landmark-safety-standard

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41564/sawstop-inventor-steve-gass-defends-the-latest-tablesaw-verdicts/page/all

And this a a Steve Colbert video about SawStop…SawStop made The Colbert Report:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

knotsteve, you have been described as the "most knowledgeable" poster on table saws on this (and from I can see) and several other forums. Why would you couch your statement in "FWIW, I believe"?

Matthew, the saw and the breaker panel are both in the unfinished basement. I would probably just add the line myself. I had extra lines requiring a second breaker box added about 10 years ago, including a 240v run to the garage for my welder.

Even the 120v models are 13A-to-16A and would require a dedicated circuit. Either way, I'll need a new circuit, and probably a couple because I'll need to add dust collection on a separate circuit

Question, does putting a contractor style saw-R4512, Steel City 35990, SawStop Contractor-on an MDF cabinet work or does that make the vibration/stability situation worse? I've seen picture with cabinets under contractor saws with long rails but never used one or seen one in person.

Thanks,

David


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## SHAGGY44 (Oct 8, 2014)

Thank you all for your very detailed discussions. I have read the above and KnotScott's very helpful posts on table saws, and tried to absorb as much as a newbie can. But please feel free to point me to other information if my questions have been answered elsewhere.

My goal is to get a saw that is capable of serious hobby wood working without breaking my personal bank. I have been looking at new and used, mostly in the Rigid 4512 level saws, or even Contractor saws like the Bosch. I had wanted to keep the price near the $400-500 range, but the saws that meet my needs are either more than that or look like they would need more expertise, time and money to renovate than I have available.

My question is about the SC35926: one is on offer from a private seller (via Craigslist) as being new (one of the three is still in the box) for $600 plus tax. That means about $660 in California. That is way at the upper end of my budget, but I could eat cheaper breakfasts with my buddies, postpone other ww purchases, etc and get that high if the saw is really worth it.

My question is threefold: 
1. If we leave out the issue of granite top vs. cast iron, is the SC35926 as good as the SC35590 series?
2. Are there enough non-magnetic push sticks and other table-top safety devices available to make this issue just important, or is it a deal-breaker?
3. Since the SC35926 is from a private party, I might not get the warranty (?)-might I be better off getting something like the R4512 from HD so the warranty would be good?

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

The 35990 has a contractor base, the 35926 has a cabinet base. The cabinet base should be more stable; it is listed as 50 pounds heavier.

Steel City is changing their models (the new listings are on their website . The prices are close outs; the 35990s are listed on the Steel City site for $650 and $750. Because they are close outs you want to move fast

Note that the 35990 comes four ways: granite center with stamped steel wings, granite center with cast iron wings, all granite, and all cast iron.

As you can see in this thread, buyers in this price range often also consider Grizzly models. When choosing a saw, keep in mind you may have it for a very long time. $400 may seem like a lot but may actually be $20/year.

The R4512 is a very good saw for the price…and may be as low as $450 on Black Friday. However, it is a cut below the others you mentioned. Note this isn't the same as an R4511 and has stamped steel wings. If you are an occasional woodworker with space and budget constraints the R4512 is an option. For $200 more the SC35926 is very attractive.

Not that cast iron has its own maintenance problems.

As indicated earlier in this thread, my wife insisted I get a Sawstop. Her analysis was that one ER visit would cost more than the difference in table saw prices.

Net…for $660, 35926.


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## SHAGGY44 (Oct 8, 2014)

DavidNJ: Thanks for your reply. I will check out Steel City website. I am still wondering about the advisability of the granite top vs. cast/steel. I guess that issue comes down to the degree of additional safety afforded by magnetic push-sticks over the non-magnetic.

I agree with your decision to go with the SawStop, BTW. The problem at this end is that the money is just not available: so I am choosing a non-SawStop saw vs. No-saw. And I am already getting tired of trying to get accuracy out of jerry-rigged circular saws, a band saw and a miter saw: I NEED a table saw!

Thanks again for your perspective. It is obvious that you do your homework and put in a lot of analysis.


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

I wasn't saying Sawstop or nothing…my wife insisted. It appears that Sawstop does well appealing to spouses.

There are also some setups that combine a track saw and table like Festool's MFT with their saw. They don't have the power of a table saw, however you may want a track saw to break down 4×8s anyway. When working on a tight budget having the right tools for the job is often more important than having the most versatile tools.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

> ...
> My question is about the SC35926: one is on offer from a private seller (via Craigslist) as being new (one of the three is still in the box) for $600 plus tax. That means about $660 in California. That is way at the upper end of my budget, but I could eat cheaper breakfasts with my buddies, postpone other ww purchases, etc and get that high if the saw is really worth it.
> 
> My question is threefold:
> ...


The guts of the 35926 are different than the 35990…both are cabinet mounted, but there are differences. The 35926 design is the same as the Cman 22116 and former R4511. Most private sellers don't collect sales tax, nor should they if they're not a retailer with some sort of a business account for reporting it. I'd call Steel City and ask about the warranty….they should cover it if it's still within their 5 year warranty period. It's over $1k new, so $600 is a fair price, but I wouldn't hesitate to ask what the seller would take for the 35926….you might get it for less. A warranty would sweeten the deal some, but lack of makes a good bartering point.

I don't generally use magnetic feather boards and wouldn't give it a thought….there are many that fit in the miter slot very quickly.

*35990:*









*35926:*

















*The ABC's of Table Saws*


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## DavidNJ (Dec 10, 2012)

The 35926 looks like a much more significant assembly. Is that correct?


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

> The 35926 looks like a much more significant assembly. Is that correct?
> 
> - DavidNJ


Can't say from personal experience, but dunno why it would be. You mount the wings, add the fence, and align it. If anything, I've heard there's a trick to wings of the 35990 which mount at the miter slot. Should be too bad with either one.


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