# Improving a joint



## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm designing a bench that I'm planning to build soon, and it's pretty much complete, except for one joint that I'm too sure on yet. If you look at the image below, the joint in question is where the solid part of the bench meets the slats. Right now I have a supporting piece (visible in the side image) on the underside that joins the two, but this feels flimsy to me. Is there a better, stronger, cleaner way of joining the slats and the solid board? Thanks in advance!


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Boy, there will be about a thousand replies to this. For me, if I was to build this for my shop, I think I would do a large surface lap joint with the slats on the top half of the joint, glued, screwed and plugged if possible to the bottom half. You need to make it almost as one. It might also be a good idea to keep the support brace underneath at the joint, glued. I'm assuming at some point you will be going back and forth with some motion, (sanding, planning, etc.) on the top so it will have to stand the back and forth movement.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Make the whole length a glueup. Solid on one side, and slatted on the other. So some boards would run the entire length of the bench, and other boards would only run part way across. This will allow the whole top to be run through the planer for uniform thickness.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

My initial thought was the same as Willie's ^


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Make the whole length a glueup.

Yup, that's how I would do it.


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks guys! But with a glueup wouldn't the "solid" part still have visible stripes? I would like that solid area to also look like a solid piece of wood.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

M&T into the solid piece and evenly space M&T into a breadboard joint at the other end would make it pretty solid, that is the only other way I can see it being done other then the aforementioned above.


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Nick. These are two good options, but it seems like they're complex and might be out of my skill range. Don't even think I have the right tools to do it the right way. I'm relatively new to woodworking and this is one of my first projects, but I'm learning as I go. Your suggestions definitely made me aware of better techniques that I wouldn't have thought of. I'm going to thinking about it more, but I might just make the entire top a solid piece of wood.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

the stupidly expensive route would be to get a slab the size you need, and rout out the slats 

But yes, it could leave visible strips, depending on wood selection (and realistically, it would be dang hard to get that much grain to match).

What about doing the lamination for all of it, and putting a single sheet/board recessed into the top of the solid end?

Just throwing ideas out there

Also, curious what kind of a bench it is (sitting/workbench) and the size in question (especially thickness)


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm on board with the one big glue up crowd.
Now, if you want the "solid end" to look like one piece of wood, you could apply a veneer top layer on there.
That starts to make it more interesting because now you will have a bunch of strips of one thickness on one end and a step down to accommodate the veneer on the other end.
But bottom line, that butt joint with the backer board tacked under is gone, as it should be.


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

Use a piece coming up from the stretcher right under the butt joint and at the same location at the other end. Make sure the stretcher is pretty strong to help support the weight of the seated.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

dowels.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Blind sliding dovetails.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Scarf joints fixed with glue and screws. A ramped
router jig could be used to cut slanted recesses
in the underside of the solid board. A 1:5 ratio
on the scarfs would expose a lot of long grain for
glue surface area.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

*but it seems like they're complex and might be out of my skill range. *

Will not know until you try. That's the way we all learn.
My choice would be the M&T like others have pointed out. 
JMHO.


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

You folks are awesome. A lot of great ideas here. Adding support from the stretchers seems interesting and the easiest for me. The dowels are also interesting. How long would the dowels need to be?

For the M&T technique, what kind of tools would I need to cut that? I assume the fit has to be perfect.


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I am on board with the "one big glue-up" crowd. You won't beat that for strength. You can pull the apron right up against the bottom of the glue up for added strength. I think that was mentioned.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Traditional mortise and tenon will drive you crazy on this. 
Take my word for it.

The only reasonable way to do it is loose tenons
with mortises routed in each piece. You can pin 
them with wood begs to prevent withdrawal, but
even then the joints will be a weak point.

The dowels are easy, but the joint will still be 
structurally suspect.

I recommend the scarfing now. It's strong, easy 
to cut, doesn't require long clamps and is easy to
reinforce with screws or a plate underneath.


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Hey folks, so after reading all the great advice in this thread and thinking about it bit, I've tried a new design. This one seems much easier to build and stronger. I've now added a frame around it and changed the position of the slats so they run the short length. All the slats and solid board can now join to the outer frame and this entire piece can connect to the legs. What do you think? Would I need a support underneath running right down the middle or would it be strong enough as is?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It would help some what if you told us what it is going to be used for? How much weight does it have to support?


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

And some dimensions. Lumber sizes. (Nice looking design, btw)


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks. Right now it's 16"x78", but I'm going to make it shorter. It's mainly going to be a decorative piece, but I want to make sure it doesn't fall apart when someone sits on it. It won't get daily use.


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## muleskinner (Sep 24, 2011)

I'd just make sure that the slats are strong enough. I'd think 3/8 or better would do the job. It'd be a pity to run a support down the center.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

*What ever you decide on, based on what you have read here or not read here, please post the results so we can all learn!*


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

With the new design, all the strength will come from the two outer frame boards. I would still add support from below.


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## Bogeyguy (Sep 26, 2012)

What is the reason for the slats?? A solid full length top would be much stronger and more stable if you plan to work on it.l


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

I will definitely post the results.

The slats are just for aesthetics. I am considering a solid top, but I want to have a viable slat option as well.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

I have seen a bench of similar size somewhere recently that the whole surface was slats and all were different random lengths so the openings were scattered all over the top. Think it was a Japanese design. Very pretty.


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Would love to see that bench if possible.

As a side note, what would be the best way to put this all together without having a bunch of screw-holes that I need to fill in? Is there a cleaner system where the screws are hidden? I was thinking of using dowels to join the slats to the frame, and pocket-holes for the rest, but not sure if pocket-holes are strong enough. I have limited tools and space, so the simplest solution would work the best for me. Thanks!


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Depends what type of woods your going to use, dowels make for pretty good joints and you can sand them flat and if you use an opposing colored wood can actually make a nice accent.

Also on the M&T joints at the least you would need chisels and a good mallet, to make it easier for depth and sanity if you have a drill press you can use some forstner bits to take out a majority of the wood then cleanup the sides and then cut your tenons on the TS using a simple (or advanced) jig.

But please like oldnovice said post whatever the final product is I know I love looking at anything people create on here.


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## Willeh (Dec 30, 2011)

Really simple: Screw a cap into the end of the slats, and then screw the cap to the solid piece. You could also just do same with dowels..


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Nick, I'm going to be using oak for this project and I will definitely post it. Where is the best place, the Projects section?

Will, not sure I follow. Do you have an image that shows what you're describing?


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

For the original design I would do a pinned box joint.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

Improving a joint?

Roll them bigger!


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

I improved a joint once… I left!


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## drainyoo (Jun 25, 2013)

Ha!

Ok, so here is the final plan for the bench. I'm going to start this next weekend. Will post it in Projects once done. Thanks so much everyone!


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