# Does a strong joint really need squeeze out?



## OldBull (Apr 30, 2020)

It looks ugly, gets on tools, has to be wiped off, effects finishes badly and gets everywhere. If 2 boards glued together didn't have squeeze out and only 70 or 80% of the board recieved glue, would it be weak? Do dowels need squeeze out?

Thanks for any advice.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Glue joints should have 100% coverage….


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## John Smith_inFL (Dec 15, 2017)

Bull - this is an ongoing issue for all woodworkers and carpenters.
here is a another discussion on the subject.

.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

With anything, it depends what you are doing for the strength needed.
The more coverage the stronger it will be.

But no, you do not need squeeze out for 2 pieces to stay together. 
All I could really say is that you do need enough, for what your doing.

If I'm gluing a shelf into a dado I certainly don't want squeeze out.
If I'm gluing up a wood top I would hope to have some squeeze out.

I think the trick is to get just enough so that there is only a trickle of squeeze out.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Like LeeRoy said, it depends on the function of the joint. If you're just holding two boards together, full coverage isn't a big deal. If the stress is going to be trying to pull the two boards apart, it'll still hold well enough.

But if there will be angular, or bending, stress on the joint, then full coverage is critical due to the nature of the stress on the joint.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I can only tell you from the professional end of furniture making….

The hobbyist is on there own..


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

I like to think that if it is easy to clean up (like a multi-board table top), let it flow. If it is a pain to clean, either protect the surrounding areas with tape or wax, otherwise use the glue sparingly.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Stop using PVA glue and start using hide glue and all your problems will go away.
It ain't rocket science.
But if you must …. listen to LeeRoy. The man knows the real meaning of "good enough".


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Neither is PVA glue

I can't sell good enough at the furniture company. That will get you fired. Quality vs good enough. That's the reason the shop went throgh many cabinet makers. They though good enough would fly…

But I'll let you guys figure out what's good enough

I worked for a solid surface company in kansas city for a short time as they needed a cabinet maker to make some complicated fixtures. The owner asked how it turned out. I replied better than some,worse than others. He replied "good enough"....

The reason I left kitchen cabinetry after 30 years. My work was higher quality than "GOOD ENOUGH"....


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## OldBull (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks all, it is very much appreciated.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I don't question your philosophy Jack. I know everything you build is a heirloom.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

It wouldn't if you could apply exactly the right amount of glue with no extra. That is not really practical and a bit of squeeze out is reassuring that enough glue has been used. I think the tendency is to apply way more than you need, I know that is the case for myself.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Stop using PVA glue and start using hide glue and all your problems will go away.
> It ain't rocket science.
> But if you must …. listen to LeeRoy. The man knows the real meaning of "good enough".
> 
> - shipwright


Hot or liquid?


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Squeeze out is the only way an inspector can be sure of 100% coverage. You can't tell how far into the joint a non-squeezeout edge goes. Any dry spot in a joint acts as a force concentrator for failure.

Now as to the amount of squeezeout that's a different issue entirely.

Most of us prevent dry spots by slathering the glue on so there is plenty of glue (and mess) all over as well. Typically the glue bead is spread out using a finger and so the results are uneven and sloppy at best.

Reduce the amount of glue way down and use a piece of lexan as a spreader. By holding the lexan against one edge at a slight angle and sliding along the joint you'll get a thin, uniform, 100% coverage glue line every time.

Also remember that PVA glue shrinks as it cures so a thin line of squeeze out (*not* a drippy mess) will contract back upon itself and essentially vanish into an inside corner. No sloppy wet rags or scraping needed.

Finger joints, however are the exception. I've made thousands of joints and have yet to figure out a neat & clean way to do it. I've even gone so far as dunking the ends in glue and keeping a stockpile of *wet* rags next to a bowl of water.

But I make a lot of small (1/4" stock) boxes and never have to worry about excessive interior squeezeout with the lexan method. It keeps your fingers dry too - no more glue thumbprints that only show during finishing. *(DAMHIKT)*

When gluing up tables squeezeout isn't normally an issue since the broad, flat surface can be easily scraped/sanded and these operations will normally be performed regardless of any squeezeout.

Some will score or groove their tenons (like dowels) to give the glue somewhere to hide. Biscuits are stamped with a pattern for the same reason.


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## OldBull (Apr 30, 2020)

What happens to say an 1/8" of glue on the inside of a joint, a dovetail with a little to much corner removed, does it eventually harden? is it weak ?


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)




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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

For my work I have pva glues, Elmer's white glue, contact cement, spray adhesive, epoxys three different kinds.
I also have the super glues and some very odd glue that works good on fabric it white but dries clear.
Old brown glue. Gorilla glue
I use them for different projects at different temperatures different wood species.
For dovetails get as much as you can as quickly as you can. Pockets of glue will take longer to cure they add nothing to strength.
Dovetails are supposed to a mechanical joint but do use glue.

Good Luck


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

well i always tend to be on the more than enough side,i want to see some squeeze out that way i know it's got full coverage.but as said some times you dont need full coverage.im with jack though im trying hard to be better than "good enough".


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

A strong joint doesn't need glue, so the answer by definition is no. But if glue is your only/main connection then I would make sure to get proper squeezeout.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

I think something that gets lost n this is a good joint. As LRMs video showed, not much glue is needed to get 100% coverage provided the joint is good.

Old bull, if you put an 1/8 bead inside a 4/4 dovetail joint, it will be incredibly strong. I would aim for zero squeeze out on inside and a little on outside.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

I try to squeeze as much as I can out of a joint… oh, wait a minute….
never mind


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> I try to squeeze as much as I can out of a joint… oh, wait a minute….
> never mind
> 
> - MrUnix


100%


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> Neither is PVA glue
> 
> I can t sell good enough at the furniture company. That will get you fired. Quality vs good enough. That s the reason the shop went throgh many cabinet makers. They though good enough would fly…
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you Jack. Perhaps I should have capitalized the word REAL in my comment.
Good enough to me is pretty much like it is to you. It is when something actually is GOOD ENOUGH.
Not when some production hack thinks it's "good enough" to sneak by in the dark.
For me "good enough" is a pretty high standard as I'm sure it is to you. I just don't like to confuse the REAL good enough with the commonly misused term which invariably describes something which is not good enough.
I certainly wasn't implying that LeeRoy was a shoddy worker.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

We've done the good enough discussion before. It didn't turn out well. To me and some others good enough means I like it and it doesn't need more work. To others, good enough connotes something that's shoddy but will have to do because they're too lazy to do it right.

Why waste time making it better than it needs to be?


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I certainly wasn't implying that LeeRoy was a shoddy worker.
> 
> - shipwright


No worries here, I didn't think you were.

I have Jack blocked because he always speaks negatively on my posts. 
He's just taking his opportunity is all.

I'm sure when you "put in two sets per day or a 4 plex in one day", as Jack has, he's got a pretty good idea what good enough is.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

The garden party. Ricky Nelson

You see, you can't please everybody so ya got to please yourself.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

I care about how the join looks, I don't worry too much about the amount of glue.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> I certainly wasn't implying that LeeRoy was a shoddy worker.
> 
> - shipwright
> 
> ...


Yes I put in 2 sets a day and 8-10 sets per week and that was what was expected of me. I had no control of their quality but I have control of my own. The installs where excellent. No call backs.

You only have control of your own work. I cannot control your quality, nor you mine.

That was I think around 7 years from what 1997 to 2004.

My post in your topic wasn't at all me trying to be negative. You felt it was and made a quick comment and blocked me. No trying to correct it as I couldn't but when someone is looking for negatively it's easy to find it even wasn't intended to be that way.

I have no problem with you, but I cannot speak for you….

I tried to go back to that shop a few months ago. Their only 15 minutes from me. Owner wants to hire me because their guys either can't complete a job or miss work to much. They know my work is good but because of dialysis I'm limited on how many hours I can work each day and I can't stay late…..I honestly don't know if I can perform like a circus monkey anymore either. Because of the treatments I'm not me anymore….


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I certainly wasn't implying that LeeRoy was a shoddy worker.
> 
> - shipwright
> 
> ...


sorry to heat that jack,but i know very well what your talking about i cant find anyone that gives a ******************** about a quality days work anymore.it's sad to days generation has no sense of pride.there more interested in getting home and playing video games…..sighhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

The good enough redux? Did I mention it didn't go well first time around?


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## ac0rn (Jan 31, 2020)

I try for full coverage. Yes to hide glue.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> The good enough redux? Did I mention it didn t go well first time around?
> 
> - Rich


Yes but I love the sport.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Yes but I love the sport.
> 
> - shipwright


It's definitely fun to follow along. Right now I'm struggling to figure out what Jack's cabinet installation adventures have to do with glue joints.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> Yes but I love the sport.
> 
> - shipwright
> 
> ...


Good question. You'll have to ask the one who brought it up…


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> My post in your topic wasn t at all me trying to be negative. You felt it was and made a quick comment and blocked me. No trying to correct it as I couldn t but when someone is looking for negatively it s easy to find it even wasn t intended to be that way.
> 
> I have no problem with you, but I cannot speak for you….
> - JackDuren


Your unblocked, I sent you a PM
Cheers


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

cmon guys cant we even have a sensible coversation and share opinions on"glue squeeze out"without getting all butt hurt,geez.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> cmon guys cant we even have a sensible coversation and share opinions on"glue squeeze out"without getting all butt hurt,geez.
> 
> - pottz


SawStop, jointers, and glue squeeze out. Hot button topics.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> cmon guys cant we even have a sensible coversation and share opinions on"glue squeeze out"without getting all butt hurt,geez.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


ha ha yeah,no one needs a sawstop,jointer or glue squeeze out,their ive said it.just call me satan ;-\


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> SawStop, jointers, and glue squeeze out. Hot button topics.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


I'll see your SawStop, etc, and raise you pocket screws and biscuit joints.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> SawStop, jointers, and glue squeeze out. Hot button topics.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


and ill raise you a domino.i call,what you got?


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

I will offer a solution to squeeze out, and the use of glue entirely: first, you must perfect your joinery to a level of precision, that would earn you a cover of FWW. In parallel with perfecting your joinery, you musy also learn to use dissimilar wood. Why? Simply because wood acts differently when it reaches equilibium in its final spot, be it in your living room or a client's home. Next, one of the woods, you must perfect drying to 6% total moisture, the other will not only be worked green, but you will submerge in a tub of water, to get moisture above 20%. Now with one half of the joint super dry and the other soaking wet, cut your joints and assemble. Now put aside for a year or so to reach equilibrium and as this happens, the joint will become super tight as one wood expands and the other shrinks.

I figure I'll have my first project ready to post in another decade ( still faster with this new method versus my normal way of working!).


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> SawStop, jointers, and glue squeeze out. Hot button topics.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


I've never been banned….you?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I will offer a solution to squeeze out, and the use of glue entirely: first, you must perfect your joinery to a level of precision, that would earn you a cover of FWW. In parallel with perfecting your joinery, you musy also learn to use dissimilar wood. Why? Simply because wood acts differently when it reaches equilibium in its final spot, be it in your living room or a client s home. Next, one of the woods, you must perfect drying to 6% total moisture, the other will not only be worked green, but you will submerge in a tub of water, to get moisture above 20%. Now with one half of the joint super dry and the other soaking wet, cut your joints and assemble. Now put aside for a year or so to reach equilibrium and as this happens, the joint will become super tight as one wood expands and the other shrinks.
> 
> I figure I ll have my first project ready to post in another decade ( still faster with this new method versus my normal way of working!).
> 
> - AMZ


lol-i like your technique,but i just turned 60 so not sure if i have time to perfect it?


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> SawStop, jointers, and glue squeeze out. Hot button topics.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


oh hell yeah,you got time for the list.poopikat,no frickin idea why,redoak? and many more in my fan club-lol.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> cmon guys cant we even have a sensible coversation and share opinions on"glue squeeze out"without getting all butt hurt,geez.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


I believe the SawStop technology should be implemented on all saws because it's cheap and does not effect the performance of the saw. Have no opinion on the political side.

I never use a jointer. Nor do I ever plan to.

I always aim for zero squeeze out.

I love pocket holes.

I'm officially the dark side….

In all seriousness, if a joint has 80-90% coverage and zero squeeze out, isn't that enough?

If the failure of a joint depends on that 10-20% of glue, it should be redesigned with better joinery.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> cmon guys cant we even have a sensible coversation and share opinions on"glue squeeze out"without getting all butt hurt,geez.
> 
> - pottz
> 
> ...


SATAN!!!! ;-)


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

It's actually good to have woodworkers with a passive gluing strategy and poor jointery skills. It's so easy to take apart and reclaimed the nice dry boards.
I also didn't mind the bickering kinda like clash of the titans.
I can also attest to CWW work shows no signs of a jointer. 

Good Luck


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

<block-quote>
I ve never been banned….you?

- LeeRoyMan
[/QUOTE]

Who, me? As far as you know, I've never been banned. Give me some proof, or shut up!!!


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I ve never been banned….you?
> 
> - LeeRoyMan
> 
> ...


LOL, no, not you, but…I got the proof if it was.


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## AMZ (Jan 27, 2020)

> I will offer a solution to squeeze out, and the use of glue entirely: first, you must perfect your joinery to a level of precision, that would earn you a cover of FWW. In parallel with perfecting your joinery, you musy also learn to use dissimilar wood. Why? Simply because wood acts differently when it reaches equilibium in its final spot, be it in your living room or a client s home. Next, one of the woods, you must perfect drying to 6% total moisture, the other will not only be worked green, but you will submerge in a tub of water, to get moisture above 20%. Now with one half of the joint super dry and the other soaking wet, cut your joints and assemble. Now put aside for a year or so to reach equilibrium and as this happens, the joint will become super tight as one wood expands and the other shrinks.
> 
> I figure I ll have my first project ready to post in another decade ( still faster with this new method versus my normal way of working!).
> 
> ...


I'm 67, and I figure as long as I have stretch goals, I can out pace the devil.

Seriously, I own a powder metal manufacturing plant, and this is a technigue we've used many times through the years, to join different metals.


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