# Veritas or Lie Nielson - which & why?



## bluekingfisher (Mar 30, 2010)

Having had my interest recently rekindled, Ok, obsessed having been bitten by the hand plane bug, I have bought a few planes of late, both Veritas and Lie Nielson, such is the fickle mind of a hobby woodworker.

Despite liking them both I tend to like them for different reasons.

I much prefer the traditional look of the LN. However, I believe the engineering and final finish of the Veritas to be a degree higher. IMHO.

I have read of individuals trading in or selling one brand to be replaced by the other, that doesn't really tell me much as it could just be the individuals, like me being of fickle mind rather than a there being specific advantage of one brand over the other.

Any thoughts on the topic?

David


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## knockknock (Jun 13, 2012)

In my opinion, generally across the line. Lie Nielsen makes the best planes in the traditional form. While Veritas makes more innovative planes that have features designed to make the plane more versatile and easier to use.

Personally I prefer the versatility of the Veritas planes. As an example, the Veritas bevel-up jack rabbet plane, is an excellent edge jointing plane. This plane has an adjustable mouth with a limiting set screw for coarse to fine shavings, along with an under-slung fence to balance the plane on the edge square to the face (note: I have added a larger wood face and shorter rods to the fence). Using the Veritas jack rabbet plane, I can easily go from a wavy rough hand-sawn edge, to a smooth square edge. So I get two planes in one, a large rabbet plane and a small jointer.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I like the innovative features of the Veritas planes. Both have outstanding workmanship and should prove to be nice to work with. I really like the PMV11 blades you can get on the Veritas, I have a #4 smoother and it's unbelievable how long it can hold an edge for. I may be a bit biased, while I have used a couple different Lie Nielsens, I actually own a few Veritas.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm interested to see how this plays out since the price point is so similar on a lot of their tools. I'm in the market for a could nicer western style hand saws and a shoulder plane. I'm leaning towards Veritas based on what I've read so far but I'm always interested in hearing a lot of opinions before I buy.


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## bluekingfisher (Mar 30, 2010)

Interesting that you should both find the Veritas more attractive for your woodworking.

Thanks for the input

David


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

I own both, bought each because I like one over the other for a certain reason. I bought a bronze smoother from LN…liked the weight/look/feel of it. Bought a Veritas scraper because I liked the blade size and features of it. I dont think you can go wrong w/ either.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

I should probably qualify my opinion on Veritas over Lie Nielson. I'm leaning towards Veritas saws because of the price point compared to the Lie Nielson and this article. The shoulder plane price is a wash but those PM-V11 blades are very appealing for the same price.


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## marcuscraft (Nov 14, 2012)

I ended up w/ a Veritas dovetail saw for the same reason that mrasmey states…money. It works fine, and I dont feel I am missing out on much vs a LN.

That LN is sexy though…damn this addiction!


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

I have both brands and what others are saying is correct. My most recent purchase was the LV medium should plane. I bought it for one major reason and that was the pivoting lever cap. My hands are not what they are used to be and arthritis makes things difficult to grip at times. This plane fits in my hand and the lever cap thing really makes a difference.

If I had it to do over, I would sell my low angle Lie-Nielsen plane and get the LV one with the extra handle. It would make life much easier.

However, it is great to see that such fine tools are being produced here.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have not bought or used any Lie Nielsen tools. But one reason not yet mentioned for buying from Lee Valley is their incredible level of customer service. No questions asked returns, including free return shipping. Lie Nielsen may be just as good, like I said I have no experience with them.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

I really like my Veritas stuff. I have not LN stuff, yet  The thing I like about Veritas is that they try to move the ball forward, think of new features or improved ergonomics, etc. LN makes beautiful versions of classics, much like someone making Shelby Cobra replicas. LV makes the next generation, like current high end automobiles (Ferrari comes to mind…frequently, though not necessarily related to tools). Then you have Bridge City which is like next gen concept cars, like Bugatti, Maclaren, etc.

Can you go wrong with either? It only depends on your preferences. Do you like super tuned old school, or cutting edge, "it's not been done before"?


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Because of my health problems I can no loger hand plane ,but if I could I would buy neither lie nielsen, or Veritas as Unless you really are into buying the very best, or collecting for the long term as say an investment ,in which case you will probably never use them.
I consider these planes are very nice and well made but way, way, over price imho I would buy some cheaper used possibly planes and learn to use them. The old timers did not resort to this kind of psychological marketing techniques used by these companies,They made some really beautiful stuff without resorting to the emperors new clothes strategy where falsehoods are promised and certain people buy into that kind of thinking believing somehow only the very best most expensive will give the very best results . In other words very expensive planes don't make furniture you do.Alistair p s I am sorry I mean no offense.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I have L-N and no Veritas planes though I've considered
getting them. In the end I think Veritas makes sensible
design upgrades while L-N sticks to tradition. I also think
L-N planes are nicer looking but that's simply a matter
of personal aesthetics. I particularly prefer the L-N
tote shape aesthetically. Functionally I'm sure there
is little difference.

If I were buying a shoulder plane the Veritas seems a
superior design. I have an old Record 073 which the
L-N is a copy of. One does have to be cautious in 
use not to mash a finger sometimes.


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Allistair, I'm not offended at all, just saying, I don't think it's fair to say LV and LN follow the Emperor's new clothes strategy. Their stuff is cheaper now than the Stanley stuff was back in the day, and they are not at gouging prices. Now if you want to talk about the several thousands of dollars for a Bridge City tool or a Breese plane or something that may be a bit closer. The only reason you can get high quality vintage tools cheap now is because most woodworkers have moved to power tools and there is still a supply of vintage tools out there.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You can trust a jointer and a smoother from either of these
makers. These are the two most essential bench planes
for furniture work. Old jointers are prone to distortion
and while it is true you can flatten them, it can be a lot 
of work and I think the ductile iron used today is probably
more stable. In any case, it doesn't require a perfect
plane to do very high level work, it requires a craftsperson
who understands the process of sharpening and using
planes.

Most of my planes have been vintage ones and I did good
work with them. The premium planes are a pleasure due
to the thick irons, good mass and conveniences like
less backlash on the adjusters.

If you have a limited budget like most learning woodworking,
get some good stones and learn to use them. Sharpening
is by far the most essential skill to get figured out in getting 
excellent results from edge tools. Once you are working
with sharp tools working the wood teaches the rest.


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

When we get to a high level of quality it doesn't make much difference to me. Canon or Nikon, Gibson or Martin, it's just personal preference. I have a Veritas DX60, a round bottom spoke shave, a squirrel tail and a small palm plane.

I'm also quite happy with my $14 Aldi Smoother and my three $7 Hong Kong smoother / jacks. Tools don't make the craftsman.


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## JGM0658 (Aug 16, 2011)

I have both and you can choose depending on what you plan to do. I have a LV BU smoothing plane and a LN Nº 4. The LN has a curved blade, the Veritas has a straight blade. Depending on the wood and how difficult it is to plane I choose one or the other. Same with the Jointer plane, I have a LV BU and a LN Nº8. What you have to think about is that the LV planes (specially the BU planes) are more versatile, you only need to change the blade to accommodate different woods, while with the LN you have to buy and change the frog. A big expense and hassle IMO. I have all of the LN scrapers, and I have the big LV scraper. I find the Ln scraper easier to set for the blade depth, but the LV is the bees knees with it's ability to curve the blade. Again one is good for some woods and for some the other one is better.

As far as quality and customer service, both are exceptional. For different reasons I have had to use customer service on both and both responded fine.

For a beginner I would recommend the Veritas bevel up planes with a few blades with different angles, you can plane just about any wood with them. For my taste I like being able to dial the blade depth with a finger rather than having to mess with the Norris adjustment wheel of the Veritas planes.

As always there are a few planes we find easier to use, I like the Veritas router plane better than the LN, as to me it seems the LN is harder to set.

In short there really is no reason to choose one over the other when speaking of quality or customer service, but I have found subtle differences make the use of one over the other more enjoyable and with better results.


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## nicksmurf111 (Jun 6, 2014)

I can afford to buy Stanley Bailey sweetheart plans all day, but don't have money to ditch on the new stuff. So for me, neither. The vintage tools will do the work just as well as the new stuff.


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## thedude50 (Aug 13, 2011)

Nick your answer proves that ignorance is bliss. The fact is your old Bailey planes won't do as nice a job as either of the two premium brands listed. Since you don't own one you simply don't know what you're missing out on. And there are other brands that will out perform vintage Bailey planes even vintage Bedrock planes out perform Bailey planes . I OWN BOTH And I have about a thousand vintage planes while you can get the vintage planes to work well it may take a few hours of work to turn that yard. Sale find into a classic tool that might make shavings to be proud of. If your starting out you need four planes a pointer a Jack and a smoother and last a good low angle block plane. If you have more time than money vintage may be a good way to go but always be extra careful if you go vintage because one drop and your old plane will shatter unlike the new supreme planes from ln veritas and even kunz and deodorizer and Clifton while I collect vintage Bedrock planes I use a few of the old ones but am phasing them out I prefer the new ln bedrocks and I like a few special veritas planes like the rebate plane however the new steel of the irons and the bronze and ductile iron makes this comparison Apple's and oranges.

LANCE GRANUM
Managing Editor
THIS OLD WORKSHOP.COM


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## Texcaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Welcome to the forum Nick.

It's important to use what you have and get runs on the board. Upgrade when you can.

A good dance fiddler playing an orange vso ( violin shaped object ) will have the crowd up and moving and hollering for more.


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## Farkled (Jan 23, 2012)

Both companies are excellent and both make excellent tools. Adding a couple points not yet mentioned:

The BU plane totes from LV fit my hand much better than the LNs.
LN handles tend to be small across the board. LV saws don't fit me either.
I own an LN 102 (a gift) and an LN bronze # 4 with HAF (just because I've always wanted one.)
I own the entire LV BU series of planes, the # 3 sized smoother and LA block (and a whole bunch of other LV stuff}

Rob Lee and family are genuinely nice people. Their charitable foundation has done and is doing some incredible work. They run their company on a novel and very ethical basis. Everybody in the company has a personal investment in its success. Customer service at LV is unparalled, it simply doesn't get any better.

I don't know as much about LN but I do know their customer service is about as good as LVs. Buy a tool from either and you can have confidence that it will be backed - 100% satisfaction.


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## bluekingfisher (Mar 30, 2010)

Some very interesting readings boys. I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and advice on this topic. very much appreciated.

Thank you all.

David.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

It depends on the tools. Some tools are better with LN while LV is better on some like the LAJ plane. 
I do like my 102 plane from LN. So it depends. I have a lot of planes from LV which I do find
it useful but then again I bought a Stanley #4 and modded it to a higher standard.


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## sikrap (Mar 15, 2009)

Both of these vendors sell high quality tools. One point that I haven't seen mentioned is that LN guarantees their tools FOREVER. I have seen several postings by people that bought LN tools at garage/estate sales that had been mistreated and LN either repaired or replaced them with the only cost being the shipping to them. LV also has extremely good customer service, but I don't know if they guarantee their stuff forever, regardless of who bought it it. I'm fortunate enough to have tools from both of them (as well as a truckload of Stanleys, Bedrocks, Millers Falls, Sargents, etc., etc.) and you'd probably be very happy with either. In the case of the shoulder plane, I too love the pivoting lever cap. It really does make a big difference in comfort using the plane.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

I just have to give you, and all the hand plane junkies out there kuddos. I'll get into more use of a plane, maybe. I've had a little Stanley block plane for many years, and it gets me buy for what I need, for now.


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## TechRedneck (Jul 30, 2010)

David:

Both companies are top notch. I get both catalogs and drool over them from time to time. When it comes down to making a purchase, I go with Veritas most of the time. I have the LV low angle block which is excellent, the LV dovetail saw and just ordered the LV router plane with the inlay attachment.

I have a bunch of old Stanley and Bailey planes some old spoke shaves, and when tuned work just great. If you are looking at a good mid priced new plane, I have one WoodRiver V3 #3 and can recommend them as part of your collection. I have a WoodRiver #80 that is a piece of crap that is dedicated to glue removal. That would not be the case with a LV or Veritas scraper plane.

Point is, I think you should add to your collection as you need to. Keep an eye out for the old planes (pre WW2) and get them when you can. If you find a need for a new plane and have the coin, then it is a matter of features between LV and Veritas.

Before you spend too much on the hand tools, get a good sharpening system going (another topic), learn how to get a razor edge on the tools you have and tune them to perform the best they can. A fancy new plane will cut like crap if it is not sharp.

With the proper sharpening and and tune up, a $25 flea market old tool can work just as good as the new ones. I have a $10, 120 year old wood body coffin smoother that is a joy to use. My cabinet has a bunch of block planes, each dedicated to specific uses. My favorite however is that little LV Low angle block. Engineering perfection.

Next purchase is a Side rabbet plane. I have a need, now I have to choose. They are hard to find in the wild, so I will purchase a new one…. now who do I go with ?? LV, Veritas, WoodRiver?


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## mbs (May 8, 2010)

I have both types and I like the one with a sharp plane iron the most.


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## unbob (Mar 10, 2013)

A friend has the LN planes, gave me his Bailey planes. So, I have had a chance to use the LN planes.
What I found to be the main problem with the old Bailey planes is they simply are not flat. They can be twisted, lumpy and bowed, or a combination of all that.
LN states their planes are .0005" flat. There is only one way to bring a Bailey plane to that degree of flatness-Hand Scraping.
Well, that takes tools and know how, along with considerable time.
There have been discussions on machinist web sites regarding hand scraping old planes, its a metal working problem.
Once a plane such as a #8 is hand scraped true, it will continue to drift out of true, and will need to be touched up from time to time.
They were terrible castings from day one.


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## Fettler (Dec 6, 2012)

The Lie Nielsen planes are the best; hands down. Only problem with them is they can put you into the poor house. Any plane you buy will require some fettling. My woodriver #6 and 4 1/2 get the most use in my shop.

Veritas makes fine planes. I do however dislike their totes, which aside from being a little roughly shaped (compared to LN) are angled for a shorter man than me (i'm 6'3"). The Port Townsend school of woodworking has a set of their low-angle jack planes and i find that cause some discomfort in my wrist. Also, i dont buy into the low-angle business for bench planes.

I have a PM-V11 blade in my #7 bedrock which i really love. I also have a woodriver block plane which is fairly well praised on this forum.


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## JakeT (Feb 13, 2010)

I own neither, they're currently out of my price range. But, if I could have either, I'd go with a bevel-up Veritas. Their designs are so innovative. I also like the way they set the mouth further back from the toe.


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## CTM2012 (Jun 24, 2012)

Lie-Nielsen. Both these companies make a quality product , but I try and stick with LN whenever i can. I like the feel of there tools, they are very comfortable to me in my hands, and another thing, this probably will sound rather odd, but they smell good. I just got in some of their plane maker floats, and I don't know what it is but they actually smell quiet pleasant. Thats just me though. I think you need to actually get your hands on them both before you can make a decision for yourself.


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## bluekingfisher (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks again for all the comments guys. I have actually taken the plunge and purchased several LV planes, all of them acquired second hand. I must admit to initially being a little perplexed and if honest, concerned that so many of them sold are "new". Perhaps they were initially purchased in part due to the "bling" factor, the purchaser a victim of the marketing and hype surrounding high end planes. Having then had the hands on experience sold on without being put to real work by the first owner?? who knows. However, I have been playing with them on various timbers over the past couple of weeks. What I can say is that it doesn't take much to achieve gossamer thin shavings, lulling me into a false sense of competence.

That said, I'm really pleased I took the LV route, not to say I won't consider a LN or any other precision instrument in the future…..........I don't really need an excuse to buy tools lol.

If someone held a gun to my head telling me to be critical in some way, it would be the fact that with my old Stanley s I can twiddle the adjustment screw on the fly to meet the level of shaving required. With the LV (unless I am going wrong somewhere) I have to, stop planing, loosen the lever cap screw then adjust, fore or aft the Norris type adjuster, re tighten the lever cap and continue planing. That said, it hasn't as yet been so much of a burden to bring on mutterings of frustration.

I feel another storage cabinet is required.

Thanks again for the input gents

David


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

My advise is slow down the purchase. Tailor the purchase to your needs. I do find LV and LN produce great
stuff. Some of the current stuff from LN is better than LV in my opinion like the 102.

I tend to favour tools that are excellent which does not mean only a single manufacturer. Some of the stuff from LN does evolve over time. Check out their small router. 
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/joinery-planes/small-router-plane/


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

Both plane makers are top notch and you really can't do better for cast iron planes. Lie-Nielsen IMO are the Bedrocks of the 21th century where Veritas makes small but nice improvements to the form. Things like the blade set screws makes using Vertas rabbet planes a lot less fussy. I own several of both and I really don't think you can go wrong with either vendor.



> If someone held a gun to my head telling me to be critical in some way, it would be the fact that with my old Stanley s I can twiddle the adjustment screw on the fly to meet the level of shaving required. With the LV (unless I am going wrong somewhere) I have to, stop planing, loosen the lever cap screw then adjust, fore or aft the Norris type adjuster, re tighten the lever cap and continue planing. That said, it hasn t as yet been so much of a burden to bring on mutterings of frustration.
> 
> - bluekingfisher


I would remove a bit of tension on the level cap until you can adjust the iron without having to loosen the cap as you might be putting to much pressure on the iron if you are having issues adjusting it. You can really torque down on those planes if you are not careful and it doesn't take near the amount of pressure to hold the iron in place you might think.


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## 12strings (Nov 15, 2011)

I would look at each purchase separately and then pick the best tool for the job, Ie…

Jointer planes: Do I want a LN traditional jointer, or an inovatibe bevel-up LV with an edge guide?

Bevel-down Smoothing planes: I would pick the LN in a heart-beat. The Veritas Bevel-down planes just look and feel odd to me.

Bevel-up Smoothing planes: I kind of like the Vertitas small BU Smoother best.

Jack plane: Save your money and get an old stanley

Plow plane: I'd pick the Veritas for it's versatility, and LN doesn't really make one.

Tongue & groove plane: LN makes a high-quality one that does T&G for $195.

Shooting board plane: I would pick the LV for it's lower price, and BU design, and the PMV11 blade, and it feels better.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

@12strings - The LV bevel-up jointer is great! Has so many blade configuration.
The shooting plane from LV is excellent. Really like it compared to LN. The PM-V11 is better for shooting as it is.


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## tnwood (Dec 13, 2009)

I have a number of both LV and LN planes. I like both of them for various reasons. I think the LV 5 /14is a sweet jack plane. The LN 4 is a great smoother but I have a LN 164 that I use just as much. I also like the LV 6 joiner because it is a bit lighter in weight. For value, I go with Veritas/LV and for looks and weight I go with LN. I started buying LN but then bought several used Veritas planes. If I were just starting to acquire tools and had a smaller budget I would go for Veritas. They may not fit the hand quite as well but that is easily fixed. I don't think you can go wrong either way. And both companies are customer relations textbooks on how to do things right.


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## sweetwilliam (Jul 24, 2014)

Lie-Nielsen whenever possible. I have 4 LN planes and 2 LV planes and the LN are all simpler, more solid, and less fussy than the LV. I think the general descriptions are correct - that LN is straightforward and traditional and LV is more innovative, but most of those innovations are either training wheels or overly finicky in my experience.

What I don't understand is the view that either of these companies are somehow producing hype. I never see them advertised and they seem to run on their reputations (both excellent) alone. Had I not purchase a Lie-Nielsen plane early on I would have quit hand-tools. Working with cheaper or older tools can be daunting for a noob. Pull a LN or a LV out of the box and you're getting great results right off the bat.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

Buying old tools and fixing them can be really expensive. Like upgrading the blade, chipbreaker and possibly the tote and knob. Which is better served by buying a LV or LN. If you can live with the default options then go with the older tools.

It depends what is your current use.


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## Rxmpo (Feb 23, 2008)

David,

I love when someone yells fire in a theater, like this posting's headline! I had to look because I knew there would be some strong opinions. Have LV BU Jack and it is a wonderful tool… LN dovetail saw and it is… you guessed it, a wonderful tool. Can't go wrong either way. However, I find myself reaching for my BU LN more than any of my other planes.


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## Aussie (Jul 24, 2014)

Hello from down under.

As I understand it the price difference in North America between LV & LN is negligible. Here in Australia LN hand planes & in fact 99% of LN tools are minimum 25% more expensive than LV. I have used LN handplanes at various woodshows & there's no doubt they are beautiful tools. For me I can (and have) purchased numerous LV handplanes (well actually around 7 ! hehe) at the equivilent cost of 2 or 3 LN planes.

And yes, as has been mentioned both sets of tools are beautifully made & are a pleasure to use. I don't have an issue with the LV totes at all but my bench is a little higher than the norm which may be the reason why I don't find the totes uncomfortable.

Just an Aussie's 2 cents worth.

Scott


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Scott,
Here in North America there is also a price difference between the two. On bevel-down bench planes LN are at least a third more expensive than Veritas, but the low-angle planes are much closer in price (maybe 10% more for LN). On joinery planes like routers and shoulder planes prices are very close, though there are a few outliers (the LV shooting plane costs $325 while the LN one goes for $500).
That said, in most cases the prices are still close enough that if you prefer the way one feels in your hands and works the wood it'd make sense to me to pay the relatively small difference.


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