# Shed electrical questions.



## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Hello,

I'm currently building a detached shed, so we can clean up our garage to use as a small workspace.

The other goal of the shed is to install dust collection and an air compressor.

I've been reading the portion of the NEC that covers MWBC's(210.4), and trying to make sense of it all.

Basically, I need 2×20a circuits. Since I can't run two separate circuits into the shed, I'll need to utilize a Multi Wire Branch Circuit.

I think I've got things figured out, but I just want to run things by some more knowledgeable resources.

Here's my breaker box:










The cable run will need to come out the back of the box. I was thinking that unused mounting hole in the bottom left pic. Similar to the one on the lower right that was used when our AC was installed.

My shed is just behind the breaker box on a small slab we had poured last year. The cable run will be very short. Less than 15 feet away from the breaker box.

I've been trying to read as much as possible on MWBC's. I'm comfortable around electricity. I plan on doing the job myself, and saving roughly $3k.

I want to pull all the permits and do everything correctly, I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row first.

Here's a sketch I found that looks like exactly what I want to do:









For those who are familiar with powering their own shop, does this look correct for what I'm looking to do?

I know I need to free up some space in the box. I've been looking at the use of tandem breakers to do so.

Any help would be awesome!


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

Yes but-- depending on the version of the code your local jurisdiction is using that breaker will probably need to be a GFI type (detached building). A 2 pole GFI breaker with neutral (for the MWBC) is not cheap. You might be better off making the shed a subpanel. It's then treated as a service entrance and needs an additional ground rod. You can use a standard 2 pole breaker in your main panel and a cheap 100A main panel in your shed. Use a larger gauge for the feeder and get a lot more capability in the shed for not much extra cost.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> Yes but-- depending on the version of the code your local jurisdiction is using that breaker will probably need to be a GFI type (detached building). A 2 pole GFI breaker with neutral (for the MWBC) is not cheap. You might be better off making the shed a subpanel. It s then treated as a service entrance and needs an additional ground rod. You can use a standard 2 pole breaker in your main panel and a cheap 100A main panel in your shed. Use a larger gauge for the feeder and get a lot more capability in the shed for not much extra cost.
> 
> - clagwell


Ok. Finding out the version of the code that is used in my area should be done first. That makes sense.

I'll get on that.

Thank you!


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

First of all, what is the load? Both my dust collector and compressor are on 20A 220 circuits. Both are 1 3/4 HP. Then you are going to want a light at least, so a 110 circuit and probably a plug. Sounds like you should run a 40A branch to a sub panel. 2 220 breakers and a 110.

NEC is fine, but seems every jurisdiction makes amendments to it. For instance, here we need two ground rods 6 feet apart. Your county WEB should have it posted.

Twin half size breakers are a life-saver. You don't want to know what it costs putting in a bigger panel!


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

As long as the feeder is buried to the proper depth you can use a regular 2 pole breaker or two singles tied together. You will need GFCI protection on the circuits in the shed and that can be done by using GFCI outlets as the first outlet in the circuit.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

My compressor is 15a and the DC is 20a 120v.

Yeah. The tandem breakers seem to be the solution to my space problems. I'm just trying to learn more about my breaker box and where or if they're allowed. Just on quick searches, it seems that I can't just install them wherever I want. I need locate where they'll fit.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I ran a wire off a 100 AMP breaker to a 100 AMP sub Panel in the shed. I ran outlets every 6' using two 20 AMP circuits. I put two outlets in each box using almond for one circuit and white for the other. One lighting circuit. One 220V heater and have some room for other items. If you use a GFCI as your first outlet the other outlets will also be protected. Hopefully you won't need arc fault breakers, those trip out if you look at them wrong.

Permits, we don't need no stinking permits! I am lucky, in my city the don't really give DIY work a hard time and I know all the inspectors anyway. I do follow code for safety and to not get flagged by the home inspector when it is time to sell.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

The shed is a small 4×10. We live in the city, and don't have a ton of room. Actually, where the shed is, I have to get a written agreement from my neighbor, because of it proximity to our lot line. No big deal there. Im only looking for a couple outlets for the dc and air compressor. Then I can run some cheapy LED shop lights from amazon or Costco. Nothing crazy.

I'm sure I could get by without pulling the permits or getting the final inspection, but those items are a small drop in the bucket compared to the price that I've been given by local electricians for the whole job. Plus for a potential DIY project, it gives me piece of mind.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Dave is correct, add a panel. NoAbout ground rods:. NEC requires 8' in contact with soil, so an 8' rod must be flush or buried, and requires the use of a direct burial rated ground clamp. And the code also requires 2 ground rods, properly spaced for your area, or a ground rod test to prove ground resistance. Two rods are cheaper than a test. 10' ground rods can be left above grade for the connection. To handle tie two single pole breakers, a UL listed handle tie for breaker brand must be used, no wire or nail. Just buy the proper 2- pole breaker. Even with the ground rods at the shed, you still need the equipment ground from the main panel.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

A panel just for those 2 items? Isn't that excessive?


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## tvrgeek (Nov 19, 2013)

LED lights: HF has the great deal $30 5000 Lumen on sale for $20 if you get the coupons.

Sounds like you could rewire your tools for 220 if possible.

Some don't consider it, but when I sold my house in MD, the inspector did look up the permits and fortunately, they found the one for the panels. They don't get too upset about branch work, but a panel had better have a signature. O thought I was covered in the house I then bought, as the barn had a permit, but when I went to pull the electrical, I found out he had never had an occupancy, so I had to research the history, find the engineering drawings in the county archives, reapply and pay anwe for the original permit, then pull my electrical.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Not excessive at all. A 2- pole ( 240 v ) 60 a gfi breaker costs around $150. A 12 circuit panel and standard breakers and gfi receptacles are much less expensive. And if a single part fails, it will cost less to replace than the 60 amp gfi breaker.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> Not excessive at all. A 2- pole ( 240 v ) 60 a gfi breaker costs around $150. A 12 circuit panel and standard breakers and gfi receptacles are much less expensive. And if a single part fails, it will cost less to replace than the 60 amp gfi breaker.
> 
> - ibewjon


Oh no. Not price wise. Sorry. I know it's nothing compared to what I would spend if I had someone else do it. I'm talking about effort wise. If that's to code what I would need, I'm fine with that. The search I've turned up so far have mentioned doing the job either way. Sub panel/ground rods/etc vs. MWBC. The shed will never be more than it is. Just those to little 20a circuits, running those 2 pieces equipment.

Again. If that's what I need per code, I'll go with it, but if a multi wire branch will suffice, I'd rather go that direction.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ok, so it looks like Seattle uses the 2017 version of the NEC. Here's what I can find for that:

Multiwire branch circuits
A multiwire branch circuit basically consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that share a neutral. All conductors of a multiwire branch circuit must originate from the same panelboard [210.4(A)].
For personnel safety, each multiwire branch circuit must have a means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at its origin [210.4(B)]. If that origin is two or more breakers, you can provide this disconnect by using single-pole circuit breakers with handle ties identified for the purpose [240.15(B)(1)].
Multiwire branch circuits can supply only line-to-neutral loads [210.4©], except that a multiwire branch circuit can also supply:

An individual piece of line-to-line utilization equipment, such as a range or dryer [210.4© Ex 1].
Both line-to-line and line-to-neutral loads if the circuit is protected by a device such as a multipole circuit breaker with a common internal trip that opens all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit simultaneously under a fault condition [210.4© Ex 2].
In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of the neutral conductor must not be interrupted by the removal of a wiring device. In these applications, the neutral conductors must be spliced together at every device providing a pigtail to terminate to the wiring device [300.13(B)]. The opening of the ungrounded conductors, or the neutral conductor of a 2-wire circuit during the replacement of a device, doesn't cause a safety hazard, so pigtailing these conductors isn't required [110.14(B)]. Caution: If the continuity of the neutral conductor of a multiwire circuit is interrupted (opened), the resultant over- or undervoltage can cause a fire and/or destruction of electrical equipment.
The ungrounded and neutral conductors of a multiwire branch circuit must be grouped together using cable ties or similar means at the point of origination [210.4(D)]. These conductors are not required to be grouped if they are contained in a single raceway or cable unique to that circuit, making the grouping obvious.
If the ungrounded conductors of a multiwire circuit don't terminate to different phases or lines, the currents on the neutral conductor will add instead of canceling each other out, possibly overloading the neutral conductor.
Identification
Equipment grounding conductors are allowed to be bare, covered, or insulated. Insulated equipment grounding conductors size 6 AWG and smaller must have a continuous outer finish - either green or green with one or more yellow stripe(s) [250.119]. If installing equipment grounding conductors
4 AWG and larger, you can permanently reidentify the insulation with green markings or tape, or strip the insulation off of the conductor. This reidentification must be done at every point where the conductor is accessible [250.119(A)].
Identify the neutral ("grounded") conductor per 200.6. If 6 AWG or smaller, it must be white, gray, or some color other than green with white stripes along its entire length. For 4 AWG and larger, the same means of identification can be used, or it is allowed to use white or gray tape at terminations.

All pretty straight forward with the exception of the grouping. I'm still trying to figure that all out.

As far as the grounding goes, I think 250.32c covers that:

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s)
or Branch Circuit(s). (A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance with 250.32(B) or©. Where there is no existing grounding electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50 shall be installed. Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment.

The issue with that info, is that I don't know if it's from 2017 or not. I pulled it from another forum.

Regardless, it does appear that my original sketch would work. Am I wrong thinking that way?


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

Your original sketch is fine except you will probably need a MWBC capable GFI in your panel, not just a simple 2 pole breaker.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> Your original sketch is fine except you will probably need a MWBC capable GFI in your panel, not just a simple 2 pole breaker.
> 
> - clagwell


This what I'm seeing so far:

For personnel safety, each multiwire branch circuit must have a means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at its origin [210.4(B)]. If that origin is two or more breakers, you can provide this disconnect by using single-pole circuit breakers with handle ties identified for the purpose [240.15(B)(1)].

As long as the two pole breaker is tied, it makes sense to me that as long as the outlets are both GFCI, it would suffice for proper disconnect. If one of the GFCI outlets pops, it'll knock out both breakers. Whyme mentioned that above.


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

> As long as the two pole breaker is tied, it makes sense to me that as long as the outlets are both GFCI, it would suffice for proper disconnect. If one of the GFCI outlets pops, it'll knock out both breakers. Whyme mentioned that above.
> 
> - Derrick


Actually, I don't think a GFCI activating will cause an upstream breaker to open, but that's not important.

What I'm concerned about is how you plan to get the wire to your building. If buried you will likely need GFCI protection ahead of the wire, i.e., at the main panel.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

As stated above, there are several ways to wire the shed.

More comments from peanut gallery:

1) Tandem breakers:

- Tandem breakers are keyed to only fit is tandem breaker slot. If you attempt to insert one in wrong slot, it won't engage due on panel lug shape/location.

- Get manual for your breaker panel and check it carefully. Not all panels allow tandem, many only allow them in upper portion of the lugs, and there are limitations on the total number of both tandem breaker, and total circuits in each panel.

- If you don't have a large number of 2 pole 240v circuits, you can easily exceed the panel limit for number circuits with tandem breakers, and need a second sub-panel. Permit process usually will check for panel limit on max number of circuits

- If you have a large number of high current breakers in panel, you can exceed the max rated amperage on bus bars of panel. Permit process usually will also check for this data on application. If your breakers are over rated, and actual loads are much lower, you can still get approval; but you have to detail all loads for existing panel. Documenting old panels is frustrating, and time consuming process; that professionals avoid if possible. It's usually cheaper to just install a sub-panel, then mess with old wiring.

- Changing simplex to tandem breakers is considered a code update to a panel in most jurisdictons. The means the circuits changed need to be in compliance with current code, and are not grand fathered to use old code. 2017 code requires AFCI outlets on any living space outlet circuits, and these are not available as tandem breaker. Not all city permit/building inspectors will enforce this requirement, but if they do; your permit may not allowed without making expensive rewiring to existing panel and/or circuits. Just like need to detail existing wiring, the cheaper/easier solution is install a 2nd panel, and avoid making changes to existing wiring.

2) Running Multi-wire branch .vs. sub-panel.
- Please pay attention to wiring/interconnect methods in your permit plan. There are huge cost differences between wires in outdoor conduit above ground, and underground wiring. If you change from one type wire to another, you need a junction box shown on permit plans. There are also different depth requirements for different conduit types and UF direct bury underground wire. Also need to check fill limits on conduit sizes. All these little installation details can add significant cost to multi-wire circuit, and favor a single wire to a sub-panel.

3) Grouping:
The grouping in codes is referring to requirement to keep neutral/ground continuous, such that service/removal of one outlet doesn't impact the other in multi-branch. The image above shows proper method with separate neutral wires running from disconnect junction box. This 'groups' the neutral/ground/hot to each circuit, so that one does not impact neutral/ground on the other.
Another way to look at this: with 3 outlets on a circuit in series, the wiring in electrical box needs to have wires pig tailed to each outlet, so there is a continuous wire to other outlets down the line. If using separate wires (like THHN) the neutral/ground/hot need to be wire tied occasional to show they are a set. Using Romex building wire, this is automatic thanks to jacket.

4) Permanent .vs. portable installation. 
If shed is anchored to concrete slab, and immovable; you can hard mount wiring to structure with solid conduit. If the shed can move a little due cable anchors, you must use flex conduit (or rated wire) from permanent junction box/disconnect switch to shed. You also might want to use short length of flexible couplings for your air line and dust collection to hard lines running into shop. The shed is anchored, right? 

Based on the limited data I can glean from full panel picture, my suggesting would be:
Replace the #1 location 2 pole breaker with 70-100A breaker, wired into a 125A sub-panel next to the original. Connect the one existing 240V circuit to new panel with wire nuts (tape wrapped/sealed to met code). Then wire new shed power from the new panel. I know this seems extreme, but it is minimalist approach to changing the old wiring - swapping one circuit for another. Plus the 1st locations on top of most panels have higher bus current rating, and special exceptions on bus bar current limit calculations.

Summary: 
Make as few changes to existing panel as you can. Anytime you attempt to get a permit for rewiring old circuits, things can get messy. With your existing panel being full, agree with others above - likely better to add a sub-panel. Whether this panel is in shed, or next to original; depends on difficulty in making changes to existing circuits and following code.

Thanks for reading to end.
Best Luck.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Damn. Yeah. That makes sense. I'll have to dig deeper on that one. The answer I gave came up a lot in my searches.

As far as how I'm getting from A to B. My plan is/was to punch a hole in the back of the box. Just like in the lower right corner in my pic above.

From there it would go through a pvc combination connector. From there I would run both hots, 1 neutral, one ground through pvc conduit attached to the outer wall of my house. That would terminate in one of those ac disconnect boxes. From the box, I would exit with a short run of that liquidtight flexible conduit, and then poke that through the shed. Once inside, I could wire up the 2 outlets.

The hole on the bottom right of our breaker box is from our AC install. That's how they ran everything, and the inspector had no problem with it. I just figured I could use that as my example.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> As stated above, there are several ways to wire the shed.
> 
> More comments from peanut gallery:
> 
> ...


That is an amazing amount of information. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to write that all out. I'm going to copy/paste that into my notes!


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

> From the box, I would exit with a short run of that liquidtight flexible conduit, and then poke that through the shed.
> - Derrick


How close is the shed to the house?

How do you support the flex?


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> How close is the shed to the house?
> 
> How do you support the flex?
> 
> - clagwell


Only about 6 inches from the wall of our house to the wall of the shed where I planned to enter. I planned on giving the liquidtight a little extra slack, so if there was any movement it would compensate. I was going to make the transition up high, so it wasn't in danger of getting bumped. It isn't in danger because of the small space I have to work with. It just felt safer.

So I guess that 6 inch transition would be unsupported but up high and out of the way.

My shed is secured to the concrete in several places.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> From the box, I would exit with a short run of that liquidtight flexible conduit, and then poke that through the shed. Once inside, I could wire up the 2 outlets.
> - Derrick


- Code requires a junction box at both ends of flex conduit. 
For HVAC example, the junction box is separate wiring chamber inside the unit.

For shed, will need to mount a box in/on shed wall. I would suggest mounting on the wall. With box on shed wall, can run the flex-tite into normal threaded hole on bottom and run conduit out back into shed. Easy to caulk the entrance hole into shed. Also be sure to provide enough flex-tite a make a drip loop, so water is not running into box connections.

PS- If shed is like most with open framing. Take note of code requirements for exposed wiring. Suggest conduit all the way to outlets, but could use (2) NM ROMEX wire runs since you have transition junction box on wall. Just need to make sure the NM wire is protected from damage inside the studs and stapled down properly.

Electricians have many little details to get right…... :-0)

Cheers.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> From the box, I would exit with a short run of that liquidtight flexible conduit, and then poke that through the shed. Once inside, I could wire up the 2 outlets.
> - Derrick
> 
> - Code requires a junction box at both ends of flex conduit.
> ...


Yep. I forgot to mention that. I planned on some sort of work box on the inside of the shed as the liquidtight enters.

If I continued with conduit to the outlets, could I still use the thhn/thwn-2 that I would use on the exterior?

As far as a "drip loop" goes. In my electronics job, when we run cable, we always have "service loops" at the ends. Just so if there is a time when a new connector needs to be installed, we have that extra length.

Am I just making a simple loop in the same fashion, but instead of being for extra length, making it so water doesn't have a direct path into the disco or the work box?


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> If I continued with conduit to the outlets, could I still use the thhn/thwn-2 that I would use on the exterior?
> ..
> Am I just making a simple loop in the same fashion, but instead of being for extra length, making it so water doesn't have a direct path into the disco or the work box?
> - Derrick


Yes. Just make sure you 'group' the THHN wires properly, or run separate neutral/ground to each box from entry junction box.

and

Yes. Drip loop can double as service loop. 
But a service loop is not a drip loop unless it has bottom below both boxes.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> If I continued with conduit to the outlets, could I still use the thhn/thwn-2 that I would use on the exterior?
> ..
> Am I just making a simple loop in the same fashion, but instead of being for extra length, making it so water doesn't have a direct path into the disco or the work box?
> - Derrick
> ...


All good info.

Thank you!


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm having a heck of a time finding info about our breaker panel.

g2040mb1200 Is the number on the box.

I would think I could go on Siemens' website and find something, but that hadn't been the case.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Here's what I have. Just trying to figure out the tandem breaker situation.


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## bmerrill (Mar 14, 2018)

I agree with the Captain above.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> I agree with the Captain above.
> 
> - bmerrill


Oh yeah. I don't disagree one bit. 
I'm just trying to dumb it down to my level.

This portion specifically:
Replace the #1 location 2 pole breaker with 70-100A breaker, wired into a 125A sub-panel next to the original. Connect the one existing 240V circuit to new panel with wire nuts (tape wrapped/sealed to met code). Then wire new shed power from the new panel. I know this seems extreme, but it is minimalist approach to changing the old wiring - swapping one circuit for another. Plus the 1st locations on top of most panels have higher bus current rating, and special exceptions on bus bar current limit calculations.

I can visualize replacing the 30a for a 70-100 then running that to a sub panel. So then am I putting the 30a in the new sub panel via proper pigtails?

Also. Even with doing that, if I wanted to run 2 circuits to the shed, don't I still need utilize an MWBC? To my limited knowledge, I can't run 2 circuits into the shed and an MWBC counts as 1.

Or should the sub panel be in the shed? It would be weird to have our dyer circuit in a sub panel in the shed, but not a huge deal.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

You guys are awesome by the way!


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Here's what I have. Just trying to figure out the tandem breaker situation.
> 
> - Derrick


Can't find the manual for the panel either? Best I can determine is you have older EQ III series panel.

This web page describes use of tandem breakers with pictures that might help you figure it out?
http://www.startribune.com/how-to-know-when-tandem-circuit-breakers-can-be-used-aka-cheater-breakers/140688183/



> I can visualize replacing the 30a for a 70-100 then running that to a sub panel. So then am I putting the 30a in the new sub panel via proper pigtails?
> - Derrick


Yes. Move the old breaker into new panel and pigtail the wires from old cabinet to new cabinet. Plus install the (2) new 20A bridged beakers for shed.



> Even with doing that, if I wanted to run 2 circuits to the shed, don't I still need utilize an MWBC?
> - Derrick


Yes. Still need to install same multi-wire circuit. The new panel is only there to remove the need to change (4) simplex to (2) tandem breakers and worry about the new code ramifications. If you cant use tandem breakers, this may be the only solution. lol
Technically speaking, if the shed is hard mounted to concrete pad, conduit is used between locations, and only outlets are installed in shed; you don't need the disconnect switch in the junction box to shed. Disconnect switch is only required on hard wired devices like HVAC or SPA; where you need to disconnect remote device from breaker for service work. With outlets in shed, you can unplug the compressor/DC for service.



> should the sub panel be in the shed? It would be weird to have our dyer circuit in a sub panel in the shed, but not a huge deal.
> - Derrick


I would put the new panel next to old one. Keeps the 30A jumper wire short and simple. No one should have to hunt for dryer breaker.

Cheers!


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ok. That's not an obscene amount of work.

Is there a need for any new ground rods to be installed, or am I good to go with whatever is currently in place?

Also, if I don't need any sort of disco between the conduit and the liquidtight, would an exterior rated work box go in place?

I've seen videos where there is a service loop within the boxes when a transition is made. Does that make sense?


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Is there a need for any new ground rods to be installed, or am I good to go with whatever is currently in place?
> 
> Also, if I don't need any sort of disco between the conduit and the liquidtight, would an exterior rated work box go in place?
> 
> ...


- No new ground rod. 
Only need new ground rods when sub-panel installed in remote structure. I.E. Putting the sub-panel in shed would need new ground rods.

- yes, exterior rated, weatherproof box is used for conduit junctions in weather exposed locations.

- sorry, not following the last question?


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

Sorry. What I feel that I've seen, is that when a transition is made inside a work box or the like, that the cable is looped within the box, so it isn't just like a straight 90* bend.

Basically just making a small loop with the cable when it transitions from the pvc to the liquidtight.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

This seems to be what I'm looking for. Hopefully I'm not breaking any rules by posting a video.

The video all made sense, but I saw one particular comment saying that he shouldn't have had exposed wire in the wall. It should have been conduit from the main panel to the J-box.

Obviously I need an inspector to verify what I need for my specific city, but for those in the know, does this install look up to snuff?


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## WhyMe (Feb 15, 2014)

The wire type used in video needs to be totally enclosed in conduit when inside the structure. He could have used SER cable.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> The wire type used in video needs to be totally enclosed in conduit when inside the structure. He could have used SER cable.
> 
> - WhyMe


Ok. That's not a huge change. Did you see any other issues?

In my garage the sub would need to be just as close. I'm trying to find a reference number for the NEC, that tells me all of the installation requirements, but I'm coming up empty. The only thing I've seen is that the top of the box can't be higher than 6'7" or something along those lines. I'm just looking for more info.

Thanks again for the help!


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You will not find a single code article to cover your installation. Each detail is covered in a different article, section, subsection, note, and so on. Grounding, overcurrent protection, conduit. The book gets thicker every third year with new and changes to old. And many local areas have their own additions, as the NEC is the MINIMUM standard. Around northern Illinois, many areas of not allow Romex. Conduit only.


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## derrick3636 (Apr 14, 2015)

> You will not find a single code article to cover your installation. Each detail is covered in a different article, section, subsection, note, and so on. Grounding, overcurrent protection, conduit. The book gets thicker every third year with new and changes to old. And many local areas have their own additions, as the NEC is the MINIMUM standard. Around northern Illinois, many areas of not allow Romex. Conduit only.
> 
> - ibewjon


Yep. I was starting to piece that together last night, as I got deeper into reading.

I'm looking at the permit application form right now for my area. I still don't think the job warrants the $3k I was quoted.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> I'm looking at the permit application form right now for my area. I still don't think the job warrants the $3k I was quoted.
> - Derrick


Obviously this is new for you. Contracting electrical work is strange beast, especially if permits are required. There is wide range in what electrical contractors charge. 
Cardinal Rule: If you don't like price quoted: get more quotes!

$3K for what work you are claiming is needed, seems too high from my desk chair? 
But #IAMAKLUTZ, what do I know? 

Not defending the price, but let share some info that might explain building contractor quotes:

- Creating permit documentation is not hard, but it takes ton of time. Most large electrical companies charge $750-$1500 for small project permitting process. Small private contractor is usually 25-40% less. Time costs money. Licensed/bonded electricians are worth a minimum of $25-35/hr, plus $5-$20/hr in benefits. Senior folks get even more. 
Spend 8 hours filling out forums, documenting existing wiring, drawing a cad drawing; all to submit a simple permit package, and someone owes them $250-$750. If the package needs editing due refusal, double the cost. Permit work is such a PIA, large companies have desk jockey Sr. electricians who do nothing but permit paperwork and drawings to help guarantee better 1st time success and lower overhead costs.

- Permits requires several inspections. Each one can be huge time suck. The wasted time is exaggerated on small job where it's less than a days work. Ever called government office and tried to make an appointment? Some are wonderful, and others are nightmare. Then there is waiting an hour for inspector to show up. Every inspection cost 2-3 hours, and they are usually 2 visits on small jobs and 3 on large jobs. Multiply wasted 4-9 hours by labor+benefits and the cost for permit climbs higher.

- DIY always under estimates the parts cost, even after getting ripped off by retail stores. Lots of small bit required in new panels. Don't forget the 1-2 hours lost running across town to buy parts and deliver to site, or add $50-75 for commercial delivery.

- This is gross over simplification, but building contractors usually have 3 pricing levels: 
First; Not working, need money for food anyway I can get it, or the cheapest rate. Also called friends and family rate.
Second; Need money but life is comfortable and not working for free. 
Third; Way too busy to be bothered with projects where I can't earn a hefty profit.

When construction is booming and electricians are in high demand; small permit jobs are annoying waste of time and always priced higher. They spend nearly same amount of permit/inspection time on small or large job. Know a couple guys who openly admit they double the quoted price for jobs when the work backlog is more than a couple months. They don't really need or want more than a couple small non-permit jobs a month as filler.

Bottom line: 
IME - Can usually find someone willing to install a sub-panel with (~$150-250 in parts) without permit process for $500-700, when work is slow. It costs me double if I ask them to submit the paperwork instead me doing it, and deal with inspectors. Costs 3-4 times more when they are really busy. YMMV

Cheers!


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## Cincinnati2929 (Aug 26, 2018)

Two points to consider.

1.I vote for a sub panel with individual breakers for lights, outlets, and any equipment for multiple reasons. It will give you max flexibility if you do anything else in the shed.

2. In our area, you have to be a certified electrician to pull a permit. But it is not the process described above at least not for my job. I was updating the main panel, and running a few lights and outlets. We didn't need drawings, and I think applying for the permit was about a 10 min job at city hall. When I remodeled a commercial building, I consulted a certified electrician who agreed to pull the permit and inspect my work. I paid him for his time to inspect my work and make the tie-in to the panel go live. I seem to recall he charged me $150 for everything. he had about 2 hours in the job. And he wanted to hire me at the end.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Cin2929, great you got someone to do that, put their license on the line for so cheap.
CaptainKllutz is correct on some of the pricing and what not, but a small job like this pulling a permit (depending on your local ordinance) shouldn't be a big deal. Yes the inspection is a pain/ waste of time if you have to be there at the same time, I had (retired 30 yrs. Master) great relationships with the inspectors in my area and didn't need to show when they did; got a phone call when they were at the job (including million dollar jobs) if they had questions.
Go with the sub-panel, remember this about price what do you pay a doctor, auto shop, plumber, lawyer, who is the only one that will probably never be back, the Electrician; so pay up.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

As a retired electrician, even after over 40 years in the trade, the small jobs still take much longer than expected. A one day job, and if you find something unexpected, another trip to the truck or maybe the store. On a large job, there is tomorrow or the next day to finish the details. Doing a small job next door to big org, blue or green, and a quick trip into the store for a small part is still a half hour to an hour. Small jobs are tough, I did them for years, as well as multi million dollar electrical jobs. And don't forget the cost of insurance. Workman's comp, vehicle, and liability for anything that might happen in your house. Even if not related to the last job, that contractor was still on the property and will be dragged in. I will never do a "side job " or moonlight because of the insurance costs. I am not losing my home and savings for a little cash. Not even for friends.


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