# Calling All Electricians



## sdwoodworker (Jan 26, 2008)

I just recently moved into a new rented house. The garage outlets are laid out horribly but since i don't own the house i can't redo the panel and add some much needed juice and accessibility. The circuit my TS runs on is a 15amp and the saw tends to trip the circuit if it bogs down in any wood at all.

I'd like some ideas on giving the shop more electrical accessibility and some suggestions on doing something with the TS circuit so it doesn't trip all the time. I was thinking replacing the 15amp with a 20amp ideas???

- Brad


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

An electrician told me that a 15 amp breaker is usually wired to 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp fuse is wired to 12 gauge wire. If you replace the breaker, you should replace the wire- for safety.

How about adding a dedicated circuit for the saw. If there is not an open spot in the panel box, you can buy breakers that are "thinner" than the typical breaker. Two breakers fit into a space where one "normal" breaker fits. One of the new breakers would be for the original circuit and the other one could be wired as a dedicated to the saw.

I am not an electrician and I do not even play one on TV. Check it out with a licensed electrician before doing any work.

Lew


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## LoneRider (May 6, 2008)

When I lived in an apartment I purchased a 12 gauge 50' extension chord and plugged it into a kitchen outlet, ran it down the stairs forced it under the door into the garage and used it for my power tool of choice.

The only outlet in the garage was on the same circuit as my computer, stereo and TV, and let me tell ya, if you pop the breaker when Tivo is taping one of your girl friends favorite shows your in trouble.

cheers.


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## sIKE (Feb 14, 2008)

Go to Home Depot and buy the book "Wiring Simplified" it is a tech reference and is based on the National Electrical Code and read the sections on wiring and service pannels so you have a good understanding of the topic then figure out what you can/would like to do and then get an electrician to come in and do it for you.

With that said if the service panel is located in the garage and has a one or two slots open, it should be simple to add a surface mounted single/double gang box with one/two dedicated 20 amp circuits located very near to the panel. When you move out you could chose to have him come back out and remove it for you, do it yourself (be wary there are mean beasties in them thar woods), or just leave it.

Hope this helps.


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## Chipncut (Aug 18, 2006)

The first thing I'd do is check to see what size wire you have in that circuit,

if its 12 gauge, change to a 20 amp breaker.

You also may be having a problem of low voltage, that could trip your breaker, so check the voltage.

Your service from the house to the garage might not have large enough wire size.


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## snowdog (Jul 1, 2007)

What dick said. There is a good chance you already have 12 gauge wire running.


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## Bigbuck (May 15, 2008)

Just be carefull, In a rental property I would definately have a lic electricain do it. Where I live only a lic electrician can do any electrical work other than a few mundain items. If you burn that place down due to your electrical modifications you could be in some real hot water.

Other than that I would do like Tom said and run an extension cord from your laundry room wich should be on a beafier circuit.


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## Daves (Aug 23, 2008)

An extension cord should never be used on a table saw, most commerically availble cord are made from on 14 or 16 gauge wires. way too small to use on the table saw. The current draw is too large for them.

Better solution is to have a licenced Electrican add the 20 A circut, and place the outlet box close enough to your saw.


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## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

may I recommend a fire extinguisher?


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

motthunter has the FIRST recomendation I would take into consideration!
DO NOT mess with electrical wiring unless you know WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT being the stubborn mule I am I have Tennesee TWO TWENTY!!! (sorry TN LJ's)
I have two *SEPARATE* 110 V 15 A circuits in my garage, I wired up a box that plugs into each one of those circuits, Same thing as 220 BUT there are things you need to know about this 1/2 A&$ setup!!!!!!!
Again I SAY!!! 
*DO NOT mess with electrical wiring unless you know WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## sdwoodworker (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments. i think for the time being i am going to just leave things alone. I was able to replace the lame incandescent bulbs in the ceiling with some 4' florescent tubes which lit the shop up quite nice! But as for the TS guess I'm gonna have to just deal with it for now. And Mott i always keep a nice big fire extinguisher sitting in my garage especially since i work in the insurance industry and see people burn down their homes all the time.


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## KevinHuber (Jul 25, 2007)

MSKI, That is not the same as 220. You do not have the proper breaker set up when doing this. You will not have the proper line to line protection that you should have.

Please, no one else try this.


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## Dadoo (Jun 23, 2007)

Here's the problem…You don't own the house.

The good thing is that it appears to be of fairly new construction, so your panel and wiring should be up to code. I'd try talking to the owner and offer to pay the electrician to add the new circuits to the garage. One of them should be on that center post. The lights should be on opposite breakers from the walls too. (I'm getting this info from your project postings). It's gonna cost ya but a win/win situation for you both. The owner also needs to get some primer on that sheetrock soon as it will suck the moisture out of the air rather quickly.

Let us know how it turns out.


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## LoneRider (May 6, 2008)

Kevin, excuse me if I expand on what you said, but I've got to add *DON'T DO THAT!*, really *DON'T*

That is not the worst thing I have ever heard of, but it is pretty close. If you ground out one of the wires, you will pop the one breaker, but you will have 120 volts going through the power tool. That could have interesting effects on your magnetic switch, and depending on the ground you could wind up running the motor on 120V, and that has the potential to over hear the motor and cause damage or fire. *OR* and possibly ever more interesting, if one of the breakers does go when the power tool is running, it is very possible, since the motor is running and the magnetic switch is engaged, it is very possible the motor will continue to run on the 120V in series with anything else on the the "dead" circuit. It gets even worse if you don't have a magnetic switch, the motor "stops" but you leave the power switch turned on, the "dead" circuit will still have some juice in it.

Proper 220V circuits have twin circuit breakers that are tied together. To do anything else is only asking for something really *bad* ™ to happen.


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## mski (Jul 3, 2007)

I did say "Same thing as 220 BUT there are things you need to know about this 1/2 A&$ setup!!!!!!!"

PS grounds tied together, I have popped them and they both go.

Again I say "Same thing as 220 BUT there are things you need to know about this 1/2 A&$ setup!!!!!!!"


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## grumpycarp (Feb 23, 2008)

There is so much bad information in this thread I couldn't help but chime in .

Lone rider: if the supply side of the circuit is 14 g. then it doesn't matter how burly the extension cord is, it's still 14 g. in the wall where it will flame.

The rest of you who favor the red state rewire (a.k.a. Tennessee 220) I only hope you recycle enough trailer houses to buy yerself a welder or a hot tub and climb out while grounded and grab the fridge or something else besides the crack pipe. It will probobly not end well for you, although the gene pool will have cooler, less yellow water. . .


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## LoneRider (May 6, 2008)

Grumpy,

Now I never suggested you put a 20A breaker/fuse on 14 gauge household wire, using a 10 or 12 gauge extension cord just ensures the lowest possible (practical) loss in the extension cord. Unless there is some strange power cord physics/EM theory I am not aware of, an extension cord can only limit current when placed in between a wall socket and electrical load 

cheers.


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## EEngineer (Jul 4, 2008)

I am an electrical engineer - note the handle…

One vital piece of info that no one has asked for - what is the horsepower rating of your saw motor?

A 15 amp circuit on 120V will support a 1 1/2 HP motor under running conditions. According to most electrical codes, these should be wired with 14 AWG wire.

A 20 amp circuit on 120V will support a 2 HP motor under running conditions. According to most electrical codes, these should be wired with 12 AWG wire.

(I've posted all the math to support this on another forum here - no time to repeat it now)

One problem with motors is that they draw more current during start. So, even though the cicruit may be able to support your saw motor while running, the startup current may exceed the fuse rating and cause it to blow. This what time-delay ("slow-blow") fuses were invented for. They will support more current than the rated current for a short time without blowing - specifically to allow motor start currents without tripping. Your solution may be as simple as replacing the fuse to your saw with a slow-blow type. Just replacing the 15 amp fuse with a 20 amp is not recommended unless you know you have 12 gauge wire running to the circuit.

Riunning the saw on an extension cord is not recommended - most all-purpose extension cords are wired with 18 AWG wire. This adds enough resistance to cause a voltage drop at the saw motor, especially diuring the higher surge currents darwn during startup. As the voltage drops the motor will draw even more current (take it as a given - too much theory for here). This can lead to a positive feedback condition (i.e. lower voltage → more current → even lower volatge → even more current → etc.) that I have seen lead to start currents of 5X or 6X more than the rated running current. The larger the wire diameter, the less the resistance. Wire diameter increases with decreasing AWG, so 18 AWG < 14 AWG < 12 AWG resistance.

Now, a personal anecdote…

I recently rebuilt an old Craftsman 10" table saw. It was originally supplied with a crappy little rocker switch mounted in a inconvenient location. I finally got around to rewiring it this summer and I used a manly power switch that was rated for more than my saw motor (3 HP vs 1 1/2). Lo and behold, when I powered it up, the lights in the garage no longer dimmed and the saw spun up to speed in about 1/2 the time it took with the old switch. The carppy little rocker switch was adding enough resistance in the circuit to radically increase the starting current. I am not suggesting that this is your problem, just that you have to consider the resistance in every leg of the connection from the power source to your saw.


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