# Hand cut dovetails - Progress But Not Complete



## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi all, I have been woodworkin for about 10 years total but have only really been doing hand tool work for about 1.5 years. I recently decided I was going to bite the bullet and try my hand at hand cut dovetails, thinking this would be a great skill builder even if I don't actually use them often.

I have had great success in learning to cut (tails first) and am able to get great fits off the saw for the side where the pin is located on the end grain, but am not really making progress on one aspect of the other side. Namely the shoulder cuts. The cheek of the tail looks good, but no matter how hard I try I can't seem to get a tight fit on the shoulder.

I included a sketchup screenshot below showing where my issue is in case I'm not explaining this well.

Also, I know it is probably tough to determine the cause without seeing my technique, but I'm wondering if this is a common issue with a common fix (ie how I was taught to cut at an extreme angle to ensure the saw follows the line, then moderate the angle to get the other side to match).


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Cut a shallow v on all three sides of the
shoulder using 6 chisel cuts. Use that
notch to register a dozuki saw. Pare any
leftover back to the line with a chisel.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

Do you happen to have a picture of some of the dovetails in question? I see the area you're pointing too in the sketchup, but not entirely sure I'm understanding what the actual issue is.

Is it that there are sometimes gaps between the tail and the pin board at the base? I've used a straight piece of wood clamped right on the line before chopping the waste in the pins before to ensure that they were in a straight line, which helped. Same also works for the tail board too.

If it's just the edge (half tail) that's cuasing issues, I always mark those out with a marking knife and square. Then start on the line and angle slightly away from the line (into the waste), and pare it to the line afterwards


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Are you getting your stock flat and square by hand or by machine? Any errors there make dovetails harder. And is it just that one spot on the end of the board or is the tail to pin fit off all the way down the pin board?


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Mosquito,
I only have pictures selectively taken to hide the flaws  I'll grab a sample and take one tonight.



> Do you happen to have a picture of some of the dovetails in question? I see the area you re pointing too in the sketchup, but not entirely sure I m understanding what the actual issue is.
> 
> Is it that there are sometimes gaps between the tail and the pin board at the base? I ve used a straight piece of wood clamped right on the line before chopping the waste in the pins before to ensure that they were in a straight line, which helped. Same also works for the tail board too.
> 
> ...


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi Loren,
Thanks for the input. Tried it last night, still not perfect but definitely an improvement. I'm curious if there is any difference in technique for a western push saw, as that's what I have?



> Cut a shallow v on all three sides of the
> shoulder using 6 chisel cuts. Use that
> notch to register a dozuki saw. Pare any
> leftover back to the line with a chisel.
> ...


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## Just_Iain (Apr 5, 2017)

Photos would help!


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

> I m curious if there is any difference in technique for a western push saw, as that s what I have?
> 
> - mision56


I've switched from Western to Japanese saws for dovetails, the only difference is that one saw starts by pushing the other starts by pulling. Otherwise, saw straight. Don't rush, take your time, keep checking the back to make sure you don't go over your line.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

I have one thing to add. Check the tail board too see if it's flat if it has developed a cup then your cut line might need to be moved out. Tail board being the maple colored one.
I'm a self proclaimed dovetail expert master. merican yep that's me.


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

> *The cheek of the tail looks good, but no matter how hard I try I can t seem to get a tight fit on the shoulder.*
> 
> - mision56


This is an issue with marking out. Ensure that the board thicknesses are transferred exactly. Below is a technique I use when using a wheel gauge.










Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Smirak (Dec 24, 2016)

> *The cheek of the tail looks good, but no matter how hard I try I can t seem to get a tight fit on the shoulder.*
> 
> - mision56
> 
> ...


Good post Derek. Make sure that your wheel on your marking gauge has an "inset screw" however…ask me how i know


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

It could be a marking issue, but I notice in that diagram the pins & tails are reversed (not sure if you meant to picture it like that).

With a traditional 1/2 pin top and bottom the only shoulder you need worry about is on the tailboard.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Meh….









I do pins first. It really doesn't matter which comes first, anyway. Cut on the WASTE sides of the lines. Usually LEAVE the lines. Then you will have a little extra to pare for the fit.

The only reason I do pins first? Way easier to mark out the tails, using a sharp knife/pencil…..









Then leave the lines, cutting on the waste side.

half pin..half tail? Doesn't matter….what matters is the cuts. And which ever way you are comfortable in laying the parts out. $$$ Marking guage? Nah, I use a square and a utility knife to mark the base lines.


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## derekcohen (Jul 15, 2007)

In addition to accurate marking, it is important that there is accurate excavation of the waste. To do this, the baseline must be saved.

Mark lightly on the outside of the board, and then deepen the relevant baselines …










Create a chisel wall ..










I use a fretsaw to remove the bulk of the waste. Saw as close to the lines as possible (less to remove = more efficient) ..



















The chisel wall ensures that you do not move it back and create a gap …



















There is a full pictorial on through dovetails on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Also, another on half blind dovetail, using blue tape: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks for reaching out with the pictures and process.

Learning to leave the right amount of waste to balance efficiency has been a huge helper in my hand tool progression,



> In addition to accurate marking, it is important that there is accurate excavation of the waste. To do this, the baseline must be saved.
> 
> Mark lightly on the outside of the board, and then deepen the relevant baselines …
> 
> ...


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## mision56 (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks again to everyone who gave input here. My dovetails are still not perfect but I've made some progress


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

You have made good progress.
Why are your tails and pins giant they don't look hand cut. But I know they are
Why does Derek post something we have see a thousand times before. Come on now
Mision 56 have you made a box with four corners


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## rad457 (Jun 15, 2013)

This is a little vise I made to do D.T.s I find that my first set are usually the worst, The more you do the better they get!


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

> Thanks again to everyone who gave input here. My dovetails are still not perfect but I've made some progress
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They may not be perfect, but they're pretty darn good. A little finish will hide a lot of that and a little more practice and I think you'll be just fine.


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## puttinggenius (Feb 21, 2018)

Very good tutorials. I shall have to try these. Thank you.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Wonderful progress.

I saved my first-ever hand cut dovetails in my office as a reminder to be diligent and humble and try to do better next time (for anything, not just dovetails).










Lots of things involved in making nice dovetails but I've found that ultimately it comes down to patience and sharpness. You can practice all day long, and do Technique X or Technique Y every single time, Western saw, Japanese saw, etc. - but if you never have patience and slow things down to think about what you're doing, and if your chisels and planes aren't cutting like razors, you will not end up with good ones.

Also, because I'm not an expert, before I do dovetails for a project, I will warm-up beforehand to get ready for the real deal - like batting practice or a driving range before teeing off on No. 1. Then I'm all limber and loosey goosey and in a mindset ready to go. Here are my most recent practice ones. I would show off the real ones for my desk but I have a couple more sides to do and took the pieces apart to finish.


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