# Advice Needed to Solve Problems with Pocket Hole Joinery



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

I've had a Kreg jig for pocket hole joinery for several years now. Have built face frames for cabinets, and found it saved time.
However, I struggle with two nagging problems-
1) When fastening hardwood together, even though I use the fine thread screws with beeswax applied to reduce friction, still have frequent splitting of the wood I'm driving the screws into.
2) I've yet to figure out the right type of jig to construct to hold carcass pieces together to keep them from shifting after glue has been applied and I'm driving the pocket hole screws (this particular problem really drives me nuts!). Is it just creative use of clamps, or something better?

Any of you who have been using this system have suggestions for these problems?

Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

I am in the market for one of those Kreg sets, so I will be interested in hearing how this topic is solved.

Do you still have splitting if you use the course threads on hardwood?


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I use a special screw made just for pocket screws. Those would be pocket screw screws…kinda screwy. I also use a "vice" clamp to clamp my face frames.


----------



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Bill-haven't tried coarse thread screws, but it could be the next step. Kreg recommends fine thread screws for joining hardwoods, and coarse threads for sheet goods/MDF-but you never know what will work until you try it.

Dennis-the screws I mentioned using are directly from Kreg, so they're made for pocket hole joinery. That's what makes the problem so frustrating.


----------



## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

I've heard this same problem with the kreg set-up posted here before. I get a few failures with my portacable set up but not enough to worry about.


----------



## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Maybe you can try the McFeely's screws as a replacement too? They seem to have all kinds of screws, and even some for pocket holes.


----------



## relic (Aug 16, 2007)

Hey Gerry
I'm not sure I fully understand your problem but at times I've used a face frame clamp from busy bee tools that has helped. Here are a couple links. Best of luck.

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=2021050224081773814&NTITEM=CT102

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=2021050224081773814&NTITEM=CT101


----------



## jeffthewoodwacker (Dec 26, 2007)

To keep the carcass pieces together you can use the kreg clamp with the point and pad. A couple of clamps place in strategic positions helps as well. If you are using the 1 1/2 inch kreg screws and have splitting try using the 1 1/4 inch kreg and see if that makes a difference. I always use a few test pieces of scrap to determine what screw is best.


----------



## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

I set the stop on the pocket-hole bit so the hole is just a little shallower than Kreg recommends. This avoids splitting through the face. I've also had the ends split on Hard Maple (I suspect other very hard woods might have similar issues) and I've resorted to pre-drilling near the ends.

I'm not clear on your question about the casework assembly. Could you post a photo of the problem?


----------



## mrtrim (Oct 11, 2007)

gerry , i feel your pain man as for the splitting , maybe try not putting your pocket hole too near the edge of your stile if possible . i do a lot of wainscoting so the stiles are a little wider than most cab. frames . ive found i get splitting more if the screws are close to the end of the rail . i think you may have a certain amount any way if your useing a grainy type wood . i never use fine thread screws for one i feel they strip out too esily, and there are so many threads i think it could be having a wedge type effect ?? id try the course threads and see if it helps clamping , first i think its important that your stock all exactly the same thickness . if your useing pre milled stock it can vary a little and cause you great pain . in my opinion the clamps leave some to be desired . i used to do a lot of welding and i have some clamps the have a double clamping head thier like two of kregs clamps that work with only one handle ive tried useing these with a flat piece of steel across the two jaws on the face side and i seemed to have some success . on the backside the two jaws are one on the stile and one on the rail . kreg also has a single jaw clamp that anchors to your bench and pushes stile and rail both flat against the benchtop it looks like it would work better if the frames are small but the ones i do are much to big to use it . like yourself im gropeing for a better way !lol


----------



## Boardman (Feb 7, 2008)

Gerry -
You could try starting the pocket screw, backing it out, then pre-drilling the receiving piece. A pencil line across the 2 pieces would assure correct line-up for the driving of the actual screw.


----------



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Guys,
Thanks for the suggestions.

I reviewed the Kreg website and it looks liike their right angled clamp (the one mentioned by jeffthewoodworker) might solve the carcass assembly problem. 
Will try the coarse screws to eliminate a possible "wedge" effect and post the results. I should have added that the Kreg face frame clamps work fine. It's holding the cabinet carcass assemblies togehter while driving the screws that I was having problems with.

The one thing I won't do is pre-drill the piece, although I do thank those of you who suggested it. The reason I bought the Kreg jig in the first place rested on their claim that you could cut down on assembly time. If I have to add a pre-drill step to the assembly, I'll throw away the Kreg Jig and use my biscut joiner for putting together face frames!


----------



## Suz (Feb 12, 2008)

HI Gerry,
You said: "Any of you who have been using this system have suggestions for these problems?" I was just wondering if the screws you are using have the little "self drill slot" in the side of the screw? I'm just guessing and grabbing for straws while looking for a solution.
I guess I never had any problems of splitting in the wood that I was screwing into. I've had the piece with the pocket holes drilled into split when I tightened the screw too much, but I cannot remember the other happening.
You also said you would go back to using biscuits, but then you would have to fool around with all those clamps again to hold things tight while the glue dried. That is what I find so handy about the pocket screw system no clamping!


----------



## DaveBaker (Feb 17, 2008)

I have not split a frame yet using them. Maybe your not setting the drill deep enough? I have made tons of face frames from hardwood and never split one, which I was really concerned about when I first started using it. I use Kreg Fine thread screws for hardwood and course thread for softwood.

As for carcass construction, I just hold the panels in place with one hand while driving the screw with the other. When attaching the face frames I use a biscuit jointer and put a few slots in the face frame and the cabinet bottom which helps align and hold it in place since this overhangs the cabinet bottom, which just makes it easier for me to assemble alone.

Dave


----------



## TampaTom (Feb 15, 2008)

On the shifting piece issue - I usually clamp up what I'm assembling like I'm not using pocket screws. A few Besseys across the piece and there's no way there will be any shifting.

As far as the splitting, I've only had it happen on Brazilian Cherry - that's it. Hard Maple, Oaks, Beech, Birch, all of them have been done with no issues….


----------



## Tangle (Jul 21, 2007)

I've had a few splits in Red Oak. I use clamps as well.


----------



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Guys-thanks again for all the suggestiions. I'll try some of them and see if they solve the problem.
Otherwise I'm going right to the source-customer service at Kreg- for the answer.


----------



## grumpycarp (Feb 23, 2008)

I have a couple of stupid questions/observations. Please don't take offense if they seem blindingly obvious. Perhaps someone reading this can benefit even if I can't help you. 
1. Are you putting the pocket in the correct half of the assembly? Which part is splitting? The pocket should go with the grain so that the the screw tip goes into the long grain not end grain. For a face frame this would be the rail not the stile. Or the stick not the cope.
2. What screws are you using. Kreg makes both pan head and truss (washer) head screws in both thread pitches. I use the fine truss heads in real hardwoods like walnut and maple and don't have a problem. For softer "hardwoods" like Alder I use the coarse thread.
3. For the carcass pieces, clamp a stop block across your layout line to stop the pieces from shifting if you're using a simple butt joint in the middle of the piece, although your pieces really should sit in a shallow rabbet or groove. By using pocket screws or biscuits in a butt jointed carcass assembly you are effectively halving the thickness of the material because the screws are only carrying half the thickness of the material and it makes for a really weak joint. And it has very little racking strength.
Hope this helps someone.
cheers


----------



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Grumpycarp,
Thanks for the note-no offense taken (I don't have that big of an ego!)
1) Yes, pocket holes are into the right assembly-the rails.
2) I use the truss style of screw from Kreg and have a supply of both fine and coarse thread versions. Note that I also use beeswax on the screws to aid driving them.
3) Agree with you on the rabbits or dados strengthening the joint. Kreg touts the fact you can work with butt joints to speed construction, but my experience (and obviously yours as well) shows it's easier to hold pieces in place while driving the screws.

To those who asked if I had the drill bit set to the proper depth-I followed Kreg's instructions to have the tip of the bit a hair off the bottom of the pocket hole fixture. I have one of their older, all aluminum, right angled fixtures with the clamp to hold the wood against where the bit works as a part of the fixture.


----------



## grumpycarp (Feb 23, 2008)

last suggestion is kind of a pain but . . .get a screw just started into the mating piece then back it out and use a screw that you've just nipped the point off of, like one does with the point of a nail and see if that helps. If you've tried that too then I'm out of ideas. I don't want to say I've not had a problem since that would pretty much guarantee that very issue plaguing me for the next year. Is there a particular type of wood that is vexing you? I'd be interested to find out how you solve this problem, please keep me informed. And good luck


----------



## gerrym526 (Dec 22, 2007)

Here's the response from Kreg tech support for those of you who asked to be kept in the loop on what I found out
*Dear Gerry,
Sounds like you are doing the correct procedure. The moisture in the woods maybe super dry and this could be the main problem. Are the rails at least a 1-1/2" wide? Do the stiles split with the rails on the inside of the face frame too? If the problem is the very top or bottom rail drive the screw into the inside pocket hole first. There is a pan head fine thread screw SPS-F125 and it has a smaller diameter shaft. The fine thread washer head screw is a #7 and the pan head is a #6. If you aren't using the pan head style this may help. I assume you are using a cordless drill with clutch adjustment. *


----------



## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Hopefully this will solve your problem. Let us know how it goes from here.


----------



## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Have you solved your splitting problem yet? I just started using my Kreg master jig, and had the same problem with an Oak face frame.

I have a couple of other things to try that were suggested here.

1 - Try the right angle clamp
2 - Try the smaller diameter screw
3 - Make sure the pieces are clamped tightly together
4 - Drive the inside screw first

I may have had some slipping on the clamped pieces, and then it split when trying to pull them back together.

I will be trying again today. So far for the plywood and poplar, the screws work just fine.


----------



## Brad_Nailor (Jul 26, 2007)

I have noticed both problems you speak of. Not so much the splitting, but i definitely notice that when you drive the screws the pieces have a tendency to walk a little. This doesn't happen that much with face frames if you are using the clamp properly, but it is a problem with casework. I use a couple of the Kreig right angle clamps placed after the pieces are aligned. I have also tried drilling pilot holes but if you don't have them centered it could make the problem worse. If you don't have the right angle clamps, then I would just clamp the piece up like if you were just gluing it, nice and tight then drive the screws. I also like to use brads if possible. A couple well placed brads can keep the pieces from moving. And use "pocket" screws for pocket joints!


----------



## motthunter (Dec 31, 2007)

I use mine regularly. I use dedicated special screws for the system and I make sure that the pilot hole is deep enough. If you are working with really hard stuff, maybe you should try to pre-drill before screwing.

I use clamps first and screw second.


----------



## AdMarkGuy (Jan 1, 2008)

Here is a good download :

http://www.kregtool.com/information_center/manuals/kreg_jig_pro_pack.pdf

Also: 
http://www.kregtool.com/information_center/faqs.php?FAQ_CAT_ID=6

Hope this helps- Good Luck


----------



## bbrooks (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks for the PDF Bill. I have just perused it so far, but found an interesting tip on page 20 -

"Occasionally in very hard or dry material you may split the very top or bottom
of a rail when driving a screw. To combat this try cheating the pocket hole on
the rail so they are further from the edge of the stile. Another tip is to use a #6
shank size screw such as the SPS-F125 as opposed to the standard SML-F125
which is a #7. Another option is to use only one pocket hole per rail end if
necessary.
TIP"

A smaller screw might help, as well as using just one pocket screw per rail end. I notice the splits were occurring the top hole of my frames.

Well I do not feel too bad considering this is my first time using the jig. Since this is a cabinet for the garage, I am switching the frames to poplar since I will likely paint it.


----------



## bobflange (Jan 21, 2012)

I realize I'm bringing this thread back up from the dead, but I had a similar problem and just today found some solutions to it. I've used the forum a few times in the past but actually just now signed up to post this.

My specific problem was end grain splitting on hard maple face frame stiles where the bottom and top rails joined in. I use 1.5" rails so to get two pocket hole screws into them, the screw tips are entering very close to the end of the stiles, so it's a perfect case to have problems with end grain splitting.

Using the "point and pad" style kreg clamp gave me poor results. Works okay for the first screw per pair but the second hole is still a problem. Doing this I had two splits in a row.

My solution was to lay the whole face frame out on a flat surface and clamp both stiles perfectly in line with all the rails with k-body parallel jaw clamps. This held things a lot more securely than the kreg "vise grip" style clamps, and was a lot faster in addition. With a clamp at each rail/stile intersection there was absolutely no joint flexing when driving the screws in, and I had no more problems with the end grain splitting.

My last observation on this issue is that it is very easy to not drill the screw in at the absolute minimum approach angle (even with a 6" driver the drill should be almost touching the rail as you drive the screw in) and this is an easy way to be splitting the wood. If your drill angle is too high, the screw enters the stile at a much more severe angle, making it more likely to split off/through a corner portion of the stile. A severely worn out driver could possibly also cause issues here, having a tight fitting driver tip helps you keep things lined up right. Most of my splits, in retrospect, were caused when I wasn't paying attention to my driving angle or, even worse, was trying to get by with a 3" or shorter driver due to space limitations.

Hope this is helpful to someone, thanks for all the good info on the forum.


----------



## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

I see this is a very old post that has been brought back to life. If anyone has read this, rubbed their chin and concurred that pocket hole joinery falls down on alignment, cramping and splitting, this is what works for me.

Firstly, when you the postman brings your pocket hole jig kit, take the face clamp out and put it in the drawer marked 'things I have, but will never use'.

Use a sash cramp/pipe cramp/kbody cramp to hold the piece firmly in the right position.

Use a drill bit like this in a bit holder to bore a pilot hole (where the pocket screw will go) into tough woods such as oak and maple.










Use the right screws - pocket hole screws for pocket hole joinery. At a pinch, 3.5 mm panhead screws will do, but never counter sunk screws - as the head will force the end grain to split.


----------



## doncutlip (Aug 30, 2008)

Maybe try setting the drill bit collar a tiny bit lower on the bit. And always put the screw holes in the horizontal piece, but you probably already knew that.


----------



## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Leave stiles long, cut off after joining. This is a method used 
in some mortise and tenon applications as well.

Shifting of joints can be controlled with pneumatic clamp
setups of moving to a Castle/PC format drilling machine.

In the end..

"You can put lipstick on a pig…"

Ergo, pocket hole joinery has inherent challenges beyond the
ease of drilling a hole and putting a screw in it. On the surface,
like biscuits, it seems fast and painless. On closer examination
and with experience pocket hole joinery will be found to have
limitations.


----------

