# Help with Wipe-On Poly over Paint



## dakremer

Hey guys. I'm trying to finish this little nightstand I built for my fiance for one of her birthday presents. She is not into fine woodworking and likes the "ikea" look - that is, no wood grain/looks like plastic. I made it out of clear aspen because I wanted to avoid knots and didnt want to spend that much money on it.

Because she likes the "Ikea" look - I sanded the nightstand up to 220, I put *three* coats of FLAT spray-paint (black) on it, and let it dry the appropriate amount of time. I then sanded it with 600 Grit, and got my air compressor out and removed all the dust from it. I then put on *ONE* coat of wipe-on poly *so far*. I would like to put at least 2-3 coats on it so it gives it that nice glossy/smooth plastic look (that she likes so much). After about 2-3 hours, I went back into the shop to check on it, and saw that it was really streaky on the top and sides. Is this normal? Will more coats of poly cover this up??? I just want to check with you guys before I move on to putting another coat of Poly on. I dont want to have to scrap this project. Any help would be appreciated.

This is my first time trying to do a nice paint finish. Did I do this correctly? Should I have done something different? What do you guys do to get that nice glossy/smooth Paint finish? When I'm all done putting coats of poly on it - how do I buff it out to give it that nice glassy/glossy/smooth look? Thanks a lot in advance!

PS…i just lightly screwed the knob on the front to see what it is going to look like…..i did not finish it with the knob on it!  i also did not finish the drawer while it was in the stand…..


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## Potacka

I have never put poly over paint but had a similar problem with wipe on poly. I came to the conclusion that summer heat & humidity had caused the streaky finish.

Adam


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## stevenhsieh

Let me guess is it water base poly?


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## dakremer

hey Steve. Not sure. Its all from a big box store. Regular flat spray paint, and wipe on poly from Lowes. Spray paint isn't oil based is it? so if it is a water based poly, that shouldnt matter? I will check tomorrow to see which products I used…maybe I'll post some pictures of them


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## skywalker01

I would think that krylon and minwax would work well together. That what you used?


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## DrDirt

THe spray paint is likely oil based - so long as it was dry the poly shouldn't matter (water or oil based).
If it was oil over oil - maybe the streaks are that the poly redisolved a bit of the paint.
I think the only was to sort it out will be an additional coat - it will either be OK or still look streaky, and you would need to sand :-(
You might try spray on poly (spray can or gun) - as it won't "disturb" the layer underneath.

Look forward to what you find out. When we did this in finishing - using Arti Water based dyes to make the wood black - we sealed with a spray coat of shellac - before building a finish.
Using Oak we did:
Dye 
Shellac
2 coats spray lacquer
Then we mixed some gel varnish with Mixol colors - and made a colorwash - in Red or Blue which when wiped on just colored the deep grain of the oak
Then sprayed clear lacquer over it. Goal is to be subtle…hard to photograph with the high gloss - but here it is Red - just the black - blue and white








Througout the class the theme seemed to be that Shellac was our best friend.


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## tomd

Here's my 2 cents, almost all spray cans are lacquer based, therefore you have put a lacquer finish on the wood, and a clear lacquer finish should top it. I have however ran into a few water based spray cans but they are usually labeled very clearly water base. If it dryed very fast and smelled harsh it was probably lacquer, poly will not lay over lacquer for very long.


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## Cosmicsniper

Ouch, not good!

My guess is that the solvent (mineral spirits) in the poly (which is quite a bit in the wipe-on products) dissolved portions of the spray paint, which also uses mineral spirits as a solvent. The streaks are likely from finger pressure during the wiping…it wouldn't take much too desolve a thin layer of spray paint.

Anytime you wipe on a product over the top of something else that uses the same solvent, well, time to strip it down and start over. This happens all the time with stains. If you wipe on something with the same solvent, it will pick up the pigments in the stain and move it around. This is why spraying is often better for such things, though you could solve that issue in the first place by using wipe-on products over something that does NOT have that same solvent. For example, you could use something like an ebony dye (mixed with water or alcohol) and THEN your poly. Dye is better anyway since it cannot be dissolved (it already was dissolved in the first place). Or, you could have been safe by using a seal coat of dewaxed shellac between the paint and poly layers. Or, you could have mixed some black dye into your poly and wiped that on.

Poly builds upon existing coats…it doesn't work like a lacquer whereby coats melt the coats underneath it. So, putting more poly on will likely make things worse. However, the good news is that if you DO mix some black dye into your poly, then you'll fix your problems. Basically, the tinted poly will cover the streaks underneath. Heck, I've mixed Minwax Ebony stain in poly and got exactly the same look you are describing. I normally coat with a plain coat of poly (or two) over the top.

If you wanted to use spray paint, for your application, you should have used a gloss black enamel spray paint. Enamel paints are designed to be very tough and durable on their own…and putting anything over the top of them will, in fact, cloud up the glossy finish. You wouldn't need the poly.

Hope this helps!


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## Cosmicsniper

BTW, you can always see what the solvent is by reading the label. If it says you can clean up your brushes with mineral spirits, then you know what the solvent is, right? Most of your typical spray paint cans clean up with mineral spirits…all the ones in my shop are that way.


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## DMIHOMECENTER

Deft spray gloss lacquer would have been better… and over gloss spray paint (of which I recommend the Rustoleum Universal). That black is so hard and shiny you may even skip the clear gloss over it.


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## Jim Jakosh

Hi Doug.What you have is typical for the first coat. It will take many coats to "build" the finish- especially if you want that full finish look…. like "Ikea".
I just did two tables that started out with 4 coats of lacquer sprayed on. I did not like the open grain showing so much so I wound up using wipe on poly for the final finish. I also got some streaking using the wipe on poly with a rag, so I reverted to what I learned from a guy a long time ago and I wrote it on my paint cabinet!! Use naphtha in poly!! This it to make it dry faster to reduce dust and to make it level out better. So I put on the last two coats by pouring the poly in a cup, adding about 1/8 naphtha and applying it with a foam brush. I wet sanded with 400 in between all coats. It came out to almost a full filled finish….........Jim


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## RonWoods

I think the problem here is most probably the sand, I might be wrong but from the pictures, it appears to have been over-sanded. I think you should have used something lighter. And my guess now is that you just sand it all over again with something relatively lighter and repaint it all over.

Just adding another coat of poly over it will change anything. Just my 2cents anyways.


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## dakremer

I only sanded the wood to 220. So that wasn't too much sanding. I did sand the paint w/ 600 though. Is that where I sanded it too much?? I will post pictures of the two products I used later today! UGH - I hope I dont have to sand this thing down to the wood again! What a pain in the butt!


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## BobTheFish

I say you should ditch the sanding and the poly and just go with spraypaint and spray finishes. The sprays often take more time to build up, but the glossy sheens are far more "glossy" and "plastic" than trying to do a hand finish. And brush finishes leave more streaks than hand rubbed.


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## CharlieM1958

I can't comment on the compatibility of the paint and the poly. But I can DEFINITELY say that a streaky appearance is perfectly normal for the first couple of coats of wipe-on poly. Because the finish is so thin, it takes two or three coats just to get even coverage. The flat black color on the table is probably just making this more noticeable than it would be on unpainted wood.


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## Cosmicsniper

Get a test board. Put some black spray on it. Let it cure. Wipe on a coat of poly like you did on the table…use a white paper towel. Inspect the towel once finished.

That should let you know the origin of the streaking.

I agree that wipe on poly will show some streaking initially, especially over dark colors, but I thought the pictures looked more atypical of that.


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## stevenhsieh

The streaks are likely caused by the the way you apply it. Sorry I wasn't clear I meant the wipe on poly, is it water based or oil based?


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## dakremer

Cr1 - is it really called "Evil Empire MinWax Alkyd" ??? or just Minwax Alkyd? haha. Is that something I can get at the big box store?


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## TimK43

I agree with tomd… it's best IMHO, to *spray* lacquer over spray paint. When you wiped off the poly did your rag turn black ie. pick up any of the finish below?

Personally, I would strip/sand all of the poly off and spray on more paint and then spray on a few coats of high gloss lacquer OR better yet, spray on some Black Lacquer paint.

Good luck!!!


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## dakremer

Tim - yes, black paint DID come off onto my rag when I applied the poly. This sucks!! haha. I do *NOT* want to redo this…UGH

Here are the two products I used together…..


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## TimK43

That means the mineral spirits in the poly pulled up some of the paint below. I think the only way to fix it is to sand off the poly and start over, as mentioned above…

Sorry dak, lessons learned, I guess?

edit: Wipe-on poly has LOTS of mineral spirits in it.


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## Bertha

I made my own wipe on poly once and yes, there was a lot of mineral spirits in it! Tons of it. It's a handsome little stand and I'm sorry to see this happen. What if he sprayed on some Deft. Same result?


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## stevenhsieh

It seems to me that your didn't removed the dust completely.


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## dakremer

Steven - I'm beginning to think I didnt remove all the dust as well. When I first sanded the paint, I only blew the dust off with my air compressor. I'm thinking I should have wiped it down with a wet rag or something. I have reapplied another coat of poly. I am about to go into the shop and see what it looks like. I will post some pictures when I return…...thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it. I can't wait until I can get my own shop and have space for a finishing room, so I can spray all of my finishes on instead of wiping/brushing. Seems like all the REALLY REALLY nice finishes are sprayed on….


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## dakremer

Here is the second coat. It is not quite dry…the picture was taken about an hour after applying the second coat. I'm going to let it sit all tonight, and maybe tomorrow apply another coat, or maybe try buffing it out with something. Do you think that would help it?


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## TimK43

Looks a little bit better but still streaky. Do you have any regular poly? Maybe that won't affect the paint as much and simply lay over the top of everything. Worth a try at this point?


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## dakremer

Tim, I do not have any regular poly. I kind of like what Cosmicsniper said above about adding some black dye to the wipe-on-poly to cover up the streaks underneath. Problem is I dont have any dye. So unless a big box store sells dye, then I am out of luck. Otherwise anyone know places you cant get it? If I can get my hands on some dye, what part dye to poly?

This is for a gift in 2 days, otherwise I'd just sand everything down and start over. Unfortunately that isnt an option for me anymore! Not enough time!


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## stevenhsieh

Go to a a paint store and buy a $15 brush

And brush it on.


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## TimK43

Ok this may seem strange, at first but… Do you have any refill ink for inkjet printers? I have used this to stain wood in the past. Black ink used in most inkjet printers is actualtly a dye. I've never mixed it into poly before but it might be worth a try? Try it out on a small piece of scrap first. Not sure the ratio…...


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## dakremer

well I do have some ink but man…that stuff is expensive…Not sure if i want to ruin my cartridge to go buy a new $30 one - that would be more expensive then my whole project so far! haha. That is a very cool idea though!


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## DMIHOMECENTER

Mr. Ikea would spin in his grave (if he were dead lol) to think someone would or could go to this much trouble to get a gloss black finish on a table.

Let it dry for for a day or two and shoot it with Deft lacquer. That WILL get you out of this. REALLY. $6

Next time, leave the painter's touch on the shelf and get the universal. Black, shiny and hard. Don't even prime it. I have used them all and the only Painter's Touch worth having around is the Primer.

As an aside, NEVER even try the Valspar Primer. It will not sand at all. Immediately gums and smears and loads the paper. I scraped a 2' x 5' top of that off with a 5 in 1 … it was like gummy mess.


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## dakremer

David, I will give it a try. Tomorrow evening I will shoot a coat of Deft lacquer on it. That will give it over 24 hours of drying since the last Poly coat. I have to ask though…if the streaks are way down in the first layer of Poly, how will the Deft lacquer hide it? I only ask because I dont know…..


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## DMIHOMECENTER

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/50384

Look at that table. It reflects the tripod above and the leg reflects the baseboard trim almost like a mirror. THAT is two coats of universal gloss black from Rustoleum.

If your streaks are seen but can't be felt, just forget the Deft and shoot it with the universal. Still $6


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## dakremer

Thanks David. Yeah, I cannot feel the streaks. Just see them. So it must be underneath the poly. Let me just make sure I am understanding - I can just go get some of that universal paint and spray it over the poly? Even though I have sanded the Poly pretty smooth (600 grit)? one coat, two coats? Then do I sand the Universal and buff it? or just sand and wipe clean or what? haha - sorry if I sound dumb…mostly because I am…and i want to make sure i get this right this time!! Thanks a lot for yours and everyones help!!!


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## DMIHOMECENTER

When your target is smooth to the touch, shoot a coat, wait an hour and shoot number 2. Nothing else. No sanding between or after.

When you shoot, keep the trigger in most of the time (not a jillion starts and stops). Get where you can walk around to keep going. It will even shoot upside down and sideways. Shake well and shake during when you do let go of the trigger.


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## TimK43

Sounds like David has a great solution to this problem!! Sometimes the simple sollution is the best. We woodworkers tend to over-think things sometimes…. Yeah, ink from refill cartridges is really expensive, I just used some of that cheap do-it-yourself ink.

I think you will need to "scuff sand" the surface with some 00 steel wool (or equivilent) before spraying the paint over top of poly, right David? This will give the paint something to hold onto….. Good luck!!!!


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## dakremer

man….i love woodworking, but sometimes the simplest things are so frustrating. I understand now why it often takes a lifetime to become a master woodworking….just the finishing aspect alone would take me an entire lifetime!! So many "Do's and Do not's".....


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## dakremer

I really appreciate all of your help!


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## TimK43

I hear ya brotha!! Finishing projects always gives me a great deal of anxiety!!! You can spend all this time designing, cutting, assembling and sanding then it's all undone my a simple mistake in the finishing room. That's one of the best things about LumberJock's, you can fast track your woodworking knowledge by learning from others….... Good Luck man, I know this project means a lot to you because it's something special for your girl!!!!


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## jroot

Just the other day, I saw a banister that was "painted" 20 years ago with black paint. It was painted, sanded, painted, sanded, painted, sanded, painted, sanded, ... just like we would do a fine finish. IT has not been retouched since the original job was done 20 years ago, and it still looks fantastic.


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## BentheViking

As an Ikea expert I would give you an A+ in terms of getting the Ikea look in design. I see what you mean about the streaks, but don't have an good advice for you. Good luck

And David his name is Ingvar Kamprad. And there is a website called Ikea Hackers dedicated to people who use Ikea products as the basis for their own creations. Its not quite woodworking in the sense of what most of us do, but it certainly has its place.


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## TimK43

Wow Ben, you do sound like an Ikea expert!!! Several years ago, when my daughter moved into her own apartment, I got pretty upset because she wanted ALL of her furniture to come from Ikea. I kept asking her if I could make her furniture because it would last her a lifetime but she said NO!!!! I ended up giving her $500.00 to buy her Ikea stuff and it broke my heart!!!!!!


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## DMIHOMECENTER

@Bentheviking, I knew his name and his story but wanted to make it less personal as I had him one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel… but personally I am not a fan of the style or the construction. It does have its place, just not at my humble abode thankyouverymuch. I would not copy that as isle 23 at Lowe's is one of my least favorite (closet maid shelving and melamine things).

Frameless cabinetry is too clinical for my tastes. I can barely stand the euro faced cabs, but that's me. However, the ultra-modern spartan and/or george jetson look is economical and serves a purpose. I get to rip some out and replace it every now and then ;=)

I do like dakremer's little table, though. It is simple and elegant in a way. It does not look like melamine or laminate. It does not have cheesy leveling feet that I can see.

I do like painted things as well as stained.


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## dakremer

no leveling feet here!


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## thiel

I've done this exact job (wipe on poly over flat latex) and I had the same issue. Turns out I was using too much pressure when wiping on. My can of Arm-R-Seal specifically warns against this (and even mentions the streaks) ... which I only discovered after I'd encountered the problem.

I rubbed out the finish and then reapplied and it seemed fine.

Good luck!


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## Cosmicsniper

You don't need dye. Any colorant with the same solvent can be mixed in the poly. Like I said, I've used Minwax Ebony oil stain to accomplish the same thing. If I recall, it's actually both a stain AND a dye. Doesn't matter though…any pigment will be suspended in the poly.

3 parts poly: 1 part Ebony stain should do the trick. Wipe on two or three coats to correct the streaks and then apply a couple of more coats of clear poly to finish. It will be black and it will be plasticky.

Just test on another board…which is something you should always do before starting, especially for wipe-on applications.


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## dakremer

Thanks Cosmic. I think I will try that tomorrow. Unfortunately this project is being given to my fiance on Wednesday…..so….running out of time. haha. I'll try one coat on a scrap piece and see what it does, and go from there!


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## DMIHOMECENTER

In most cases, I would say tim is 100% right in saying to scuff the poly, but with this paint… if it's smooth then paint it. It is self-priming and will stick well. This is also what I used on the back of the 3/8" float glass in the scary sharp meets gorilla glue project. It sticks to slick, perfectly flat glass ! It will cling to the poly.

As Ozzie was once accused of saying subliminally: "Shoot, shoot, shoot".


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## BobTheFish

well, regarding sanding poly, you should check out this concurrent topic as well: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/29042

oh yeah. Minwax stains are also finishes. They most definitely have a finishing component to them. I know by experience. So that's a dye, a stain, and a finish all in one. 

I'd STILL recommend the spray finish for your final coat. Brushing and rubbing just don't give the same even glossy finish you get with sprays.


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## rusty2010

I commend you on your efforts. What you're trying to achieve is extremely difficult when finishing by hand. The technique is called French Polishing and it takes time to master. The quick and easy system is to spray. I've used black shoe polish to restore black pieces and to age finishes. Keep at it, you're still learning


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## 489tad

A while back I did a few refinishing projects to black and most recent a piano bench. What worked for me, paint, wet sand and paint, wet sand….. till smooth. Then brush on poly and wet sand again and again till smooth then I sprayed, (can) the final coat. I didn't read all the replies so I hope this helps. Oh, try to do it the most dust free area you can create. I hope this helps.


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## DMIHOMECENTER

Whatever you did, I hope it went well for you.


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## dakremer

hey David. I decided to go with Cosmic's idea of putting Minwax ebony stain in with poly. Mixed 1:4 poly. I applied it earlier tonight. Tomorrow I will see how it looks and try buffing the finish out. I will post pictures so people following/participating in this thread can see what happened. The streaking has definitely gone away. And I think that is due to multiple coats of poly (3) and then the final coat of poly/ebony stain. But now I see scratches and other things wrong with it. The table FEELS smooth as a baby's butt, but after inspecting the table over and over and over again, I think I had multiple problems. One, i think the paint and the poly definitely were not compatible - causing streaks in the paint. But I think I also did not sand it well enough as I can see scratches through the finish. I'm not sure if those scratches are on the wood itself, or from sanding the poly and not properly removing the dust. I think a lot of dust got into the finish, etc, etc, etc. There seems to be tons of problems with it. You guys have helped A TON, and I am definitely a more knowledgable person because of it. As of now, I'm just trying to make it presentable!! haha. I dont want to give a piece of crap as a gift. I'd rather just go buy her something then giver her something I made that is horrible. I bought some automotive rubbing and polishing compound today. Hopefully that'll take some of the scratches out (if its scratches in the poly and not in the wood itself). We'll see. Either way I'll post pictures. The good new is, is that it is DEFINITELY better than that first picture i posted


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## DMIHOMECENTER

Good luck.

FYI New stuff I will review soon: http://glidden.com/collections/a2/83/view-product.do?retailer=all

It has the consistency of Gojo. No brush marks. Dries flat to half of the wet mil thickness.


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## dakremer

i just watched the video! very interesting. I'm looking forward to how it actually worked out for you! Hope you have some good pics!


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## TimK43

Just saw the post of your night stand. Very nice!!! Did it come out like you wanted it to? What method did you use to fix the finish!!! What was her reaction? Congrats on a job well done!!!! Hopefully she realizes how lucky she is to have someone that will put out this much effort for her!!!!!!!


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## Jim Jakosh

Hi Doug, I sent in a comment on this but I don't see it. Anyway, I suggested to use poly thinned with naphtha. It makes it dry faster to eliminate dust and it lets it level better in the process. I used that on the last tables I made. I poured the wipe on poly in a cup and added about 1/8 naphtha and used a foam brush to apply it.

...........Jim


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## dakremer

Hey Jim. Yeah I got your comment earlier I think. I will keep that in mind for my next project I use poly on…..Even though I think my next project I'll try and us Lacquer for the first time.

Tim. It came out pretty nice. The streaks are completely gone. I used Cosmic's idea of mixing some Minwax Ebony stain in with the poly. I added two more coats of it like this, which completely hid the streaking. I then buffed and polished it with some automotive products. I definitely saved the finish. However after it was all polished out, i noticed little scratches everywhere in the finish. I dont know if those scratches were way down in the wood (maybe I didnt sand it properly)....or in the finish. Oh well. It turned out pretty good! my fiance loved it!  Thanks a ton for your help!!

There's just so many things that can go wrong when trying to get that "glass like" finish. Its a learning experience, and I definitely learned A LOT!! Next time I feel will be much much better/easier


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