# How would you secure small miter corners and a question about biscuits



## GPDMTR25 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm making the doors to my TV stand. Since the doors are rather small, 16" X 7-1/4", I used a 1-1/2" frame. The panel is wood so if won't be glued in place. Do you think the miter corners will be secured enough on their own with only glue? I was planning on using biscuits but two problems with this. First the biscuits have to be cut down so small they're basically useless and second my understanding of biscuits is they are used to align the two pieces of wood and they don't provide any type of support. Is this correct? I thought of splines but didn't want them to show.

Since I'm the only one that will be using the doors, no kids to destroy it, I thought I'd just glue the corners together and let it go at that. Is there something I'm not considering?



















The slot takes up at of the space on the frame.









Thanks
Angela


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

The is a possibility use could use a spline. I think you may be able to get by with just glue, but you would always want to be careful with it. There is also a mechanical fastner available. I dont recall the name, but is essentially a staple like device that will span both sides of the miter, on the back of the door.


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## Howie (May 25, 2010)

I had an issue like this once and I ended up using a small(5/64) drill across the joint then inserting…a round toothpick with glue. Cut it off and it was almost invisible. I don't think I would trust the glue alone.


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## GPDMTR25 (Jun 21, 2010)

I had an issue like this once and I ended up using a small(5/64) drill across the joint then inserting…a round toothpick with glue.
This seems like a great idea. Didn't think of that.

ShaneA - I'm not sure what fastners you're talking about. I searched the web but couldn't locate anything. Unless you're talking about a crown staple.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

For a picture frame just gluing is fine, but for a door I would use dovels if not splines. I second mechanical fastener if you are OK with them showing on the back. You can drill for dovel after gluing. It will be visible, but much less than spline, just a small circle.
"my understanding of biscuits is they are used to align the two pieces of wood and they don't provide any type of support"
That is true for laminating long grain. In this situation they would be beneficial.


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

V Nails, rockler has them, although that isnt what I recalled them to look like. I was thinking thry were shaped like a W.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

There are these, but I think splines would look better.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=corrugated+fasteners&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHKZenUS433US433&nord=1&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.rgc.rpw.rcp.&ion=1&biw=1600&bih=787&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13467390019214885717&sa=X&ei=kfZ8TterJKrF0AHKsvntDw&ved=0CHkQ8wIwAA


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

What's wrong with using the small biscuits?
Bill


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

Use the "FF" setting on your biscuit cutter. Then install a smaller face frame blade and use FF biscuits.

If you are not dead set on a mitered look, just make the doors with stub tenon and groove construction on your tablesaw.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

I think you could use a hidden spline, and install a spline with the long grain running perpendicular to the miter. You could use you biscuit cutter to cut the slot and mill your spline to slip fit prior to glue up. I don't know if I would trust an end grain butt joint for a door without some kind reinforcement.

Just an amateurs perspective,


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## mark88 (Jun 8, 2009)

brad nailer?


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## Lenny (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi Angela. *shaneA* may be referring to a corrugated fastener. You can find them with a Google search. Years ago they were a popular item for picture framing and other miter joints. You hammer them in across the joint (perhaps two per joint?). The ins and outs of the curves prevent the joint from separating.


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

A small biscuit will add a bit of strength to your miters, but I don't think that I would trust that for doors.

What kind of hinges are you using for the doors? If you're using 35mm cup gunges, with 1.5" stiles, the cups are going to cut into the door panels.


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## gfadvm (Jan 13, 2011)

Half lap or bridle joints would be MUCH stronger than miters but I suspect you have already cut your miters. There is a simple technique where you remove about 1/4" of material across the back of your corners and then glue 1/4" thick triangles where you removed material. Damn, this is really simple but I'm making it sound difficult. One of you Sketch Up guys needs to chime in with a picture. Basically it looks like a spline across the back of the corner where its not visable.


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## Michael1 (Feb 12, 2011)

The Biscuit goes aid in alignment but is also swells from the moisture in the glue giving the joint allot of strength. I prefer to build raised panel doors with a miter joint as I think traditional cope and stick is just plain ugly. I have found that even cutting down the biscuit on a small frame you still have the slot the biscuit cutter made that is sometimes too wide. I would suggest a 1/8" or 1/4" dowel. Dowels are extremely strong and will help align the joint during glue up.


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## Blondewood (Mar 30, 2009)

I made raised panel door for a small bathroom cabinet. They a just a bit bigger than yours. I used glue and pin nails. My situation is also a bit like yours in that it's a 2 adult house hold and we aren't hard on things. It's been in use for a year and is plenty sturdy.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

No ones really addressing the problem of why its not really practical to use a mitered corner joint on a raised panel door. Moisture and expansion, you see no matter how much you seal or how tite you think you get the joint a raised panel expands more length wise and therefore will push against the miter joint opening it up. If a client wants that look, I will use plywood and trim it out to make a faux looking panel.

Now my suggestion is to use a brad nailer and make sure you get good glue coverage.

Good luck!


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

biscuits help in alignment, but never add any structural strength to a joint. If you want to add mechanical strength I Suggest using a spline which is equivalent to a biscuit and helps with alignment as well, but it is solid wood and actually adds long grain to long grain glue surface that also assists with rigidity and strength to a miter joint.


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## GPDMTR25 (Jun 21, 2010)

*Use the "FF" setting on your biscuit cutter. Then install a smaller face frame blade and use FF biscuits.*
I thought I'd purchased the smallest ones I could fine but I'll check those out.

*I prefer to build raised panel doors with a miter joint as I think traditional cope and stick is just plain ugly. *
Actually I'm set on miter corners for this project. I tried rail and stile but it looks awful.

*shaneA may be referring to a corrugated fastener.*
I did check out those fasteners, I had never heard of them but never made a picture frame. I'm staining the stand so these wouldn't really show and are a good possibility. I love learning new stuff.

*brad nailer? Now my suggestion is to use a brad nail. I used glue and pin nails*
Are pin nails just small nails like brad nails? How would you use brad nails? Shoot it in from the sides.? Would you do both sides of the miter angle? Are you just hitting the miter corner or going into the panel?

I look at using dowels and splines again.

*Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer another one of my many questions. *

Angela


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## breaknrn (Jun 17, 2007)

I have a mini biscuit joiner from sears for narrow miters, but realize that this is a $100 tool, so it may not make sense to pick one up. I did recently come across the jessem pocket zip slot mortiser which is on sale for $40 here. You get strength, hide any joinery or mechanical fasteners, and it's cheap.


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## glue4you (Aug 11, 2011)

As it seems that the doors simply wait to be glued, I'd not bother with a different design. Thin Dowels should do the trick and add enough stability. Maybe a simple angle jig would help.

Another way would be to add some kind of self-securing inlaid dutchmen from the back to reinforce the joint, something like that:









But I think that's a bit of an overkill for the purpose and way too much work considering the small dimensions


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

door companies actually use a mortise and tenon system, each of your four pieces for the door has a mortise on one end and a tenon on the other, not a seperate tenon that goes into 2 mortises, but your rail and styles are actually cut over sized to allow for the tenon, then the machine routes the actual miter and tenon to the proper length. you could use spring miter clamps such as ulmia or collins, or use a band clamp. i dont like the bowtie fastners personally
http://www.ewpdoors.com/_mort-ten.jpg
thats a picture of flat stock to show what im talking about but will work on any profile door frame you stick in the machine. you could set up a jig to hold your board at 45 degrees from a router and cut your own tenon


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I've never made these type doors, but I do make a lot of very large picture frames. The frames I make are large enough (for my scroll sawn portraits) that they will eventually come apart of I were to use only glue. Therefore, I'm sure the door would do the same. 
My solution on the picture frames is a 23GA pin nailer. I use one inch pin nails. I shoot two pins on each face, at each corner. That makes four pins at each corner, or sixteen pins total for a four sided frame. I do all this in addition to glue.
Since starting this method, I've never had a frame come apart yet, even after being dropped.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

*"brad nailer? Now my suggestion is to use a brad nail. I used glue and pin nails"*
What William says, one in each corner, one high and one low so that they dont hit each other or it can push the joint apart and not going into the panel.
Brad or Pin which ever you call it they are the same.


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

no!!! a brad nailer is 18g, a pin or wire nailer is 23g, using a brad nailer to close to the edge may split your board. the 23 g will leave a tiny hole, add a dab of glue and lightly sand so the sawdust fills the hole, invisible fastner


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## bernwood (Aug 19, 2010)

Andy or gfadvm had the solution if you don't mind seeing a slight flaw when the doors are open. A thin lap cut on the back side filled by an exposed spline is a very strong solution to delima. As stated by a few, doors are not like picture frames and they will come apart after a year or 2 if only using glue.

Splines are also good options (outside edge is easiest if you are building inset doors or inside corner if using overlap with outside edge exposed while door is closed.

Nothing to do with your problem Angela, but why are folks opposed to stick and cope doors? I have a set for raised panel doors and I think they look good. I'm now building a cabinet for my sister who requested flat panel doors and made them using cope and stick method. They look good. I wouldn't mind a little feed back on this comment. Is the cope and stick method ugly because of the way they don't match the grain or is there another problem that may be overcome using cabinet scarpers or… ?


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## greasemonkeyredneck (Aug 14, 2010)

I agree with maljr on the fact that pins and brads are very different. 
I have three nailers. 
An 18 GA brad nailer. It is fine for small work, but the small head on it is very visible, no matter how you try to hide it. If I'm working on an exposed surface that can be seen, I do not use the 18 GA unless I plan on painting it.
A 23 GA pin nailer. It shoots almost needle like pins. I use this nailer so much that I don't know how I ever lived without it. The picture frames are a good example. I shoot the pins. I grab my handy dandy piece of sandpaper and sand over where I just shot. Noone will ever see where the pins are unless they know exactly where to very carefully search for it at. 
I wish to note something though. I am only trying to be helpful. I use this method often on picture frames with great success. I have never built the type doors you are doing, so I cannot and will not say how well it will work in your situation.


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

again real mitered cabinet doors from profesional door companies use the mortise and tenon design. if you access to a domino you could use it, or dowels would work also, even on cope and stick doors we would shoot micropins o the back side through the cope to hold everything in place while we glued and clamped


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

You have several good options that have been mentioned. As gfadvm suggested:










Glue the joint up, then after it is dry, cut the half lap:








Contrasting wood shown for better clarity.









It can be a nice looking joint.

Or the butterfly could be used to either accentuate it, or with the same wood, to disguise it.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

*maljr1980 & william*
Yes, there's 15-16 ga (finish) 18-19ga (brads) and 21-23ga (pins)
I'll go back to my first post and again reiterate my main concern, expansion of a raised panel on a mitered corner joint. IMO a pin (23 ga) is fine for a "Picture Frame" with no stresses, and its only real use is to hold the piece together while the glue dries, which has 10 times more tensil strength then the pin. A pin will never have the strength to hold-up against the movement of a raised panel and the opening and closing of a door.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

CampD, correctly built raised panels do not fit tight inside the frames. They are manufactured loose to account for the expansion. It should be fine.


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## CampD (Nov 8, 2008)

Yes rance, I've built hundreds (I've been a finish carpenter for over 25 yrs) and for that reason will not build one with mitered corners, maybe a half-lap miter but never plain miters. Ever see a factory built mitered door? or that fact a Door in general with miters, theres a reason its been done with rails and stiles for hundreds of years.

and 2nd, angela is a beginer, do we know if she took that into account?


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Doug, I apologize if I upset you. I have no idea of you or Angela's background. I was stating, based on what I saw in this thread. I see nowhere that she said she was a beginner.

You are right, cabinet doors are not typically built with miters. Probably because they are a weaker joint. But that does not mean it couldn't be reasonably done. Cabinet doors take a lot of abuse. She did state, however, that these doors would not be subject to that much abuse. I imagine she choose miters for the appearance of a picture frame based on her other comments. Sometimes we just want to break the rules.

I don't understand your concern with expansion of a raised panel on a mitered corner joint as long as it has room to move inside the frame. How is the panel stressing the joint? I'm eager to learn here.


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

once again you people are all wrong. go to a kitchen and bath company, and you will see mitered doors, heck go to the cabinet sales part at lowes and you will see mitered doors. there is nothing wrong with a mitered cabinet door. if it is made correctly it will last just as long if not longer than a rail and style door. i posted a video of a profesional mortise and tennon machine for mitered doors. now everyone may not be able to afford a machine like this, unless you actually own a cabinet or door company, but the same can be easily done with a festool domino, or simple doweling jig


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Personally I find mitered doors quite attractive with their deceptive difficulty, but visual simplicity. They are not uncommon or a bad choice for cabinets. They do need some type of reinforcement however. Many ways to do it, most of which have been mentioned. A properly sized/fitted solid panel should not cause stress problems in miters. Based on angela's photos she has built an attractive door and panel. With a little, reinforcement and light/proper use, I think her doors will last and preform as intended. I still remember facing difficulties with miters. It wasn't until I built an accurate TS sled that I could get all the corners to close tight/square. It was a joyful day because I have respect for a nice miter, they are often overlooked.


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## maljr1980 (Sep 4, 2011)

ive never cut miters on anything but a properly adjusted scms, and your panel should be slightly undersized and held in place with the little rubber ball spacers to keep it from rattling


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## DMIHOMECENTER (Mar 5, 2011)

2P-10 and pin nails. Never had one fail or split on raised panel outer miters (or crown mold outside and inside corners, either). Just make sure the center panel has a way to expand/contract without blowing it apart on expansion.

And contrary to jock preferences, the general public does not want to see and is not impressed in the least by fancy exposed joints.


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## Tootles (Jul 21, 2011)

There was a suggestion above for mortice and tenon joints, I would have favoured that. However, since you have already cut the mitres, the only way you can do it is by morticing both sides of the mitre and putting in a loose tenon. Does that sound like a biscuit joint to you too?

Yes, a biscuit should add some strength to the joint. If you are worried that it won't, use solid wood instead of a biscuit and align the grain agross the joint as you would a mitre spline.

Otherwise I quite like the ideas that Rance sketched above.

I'd also suggest that if your hinges are smooth, then the only real stress you will put on the door will come from (a) the weight of the door, but as you say they are small so that should not be too significant and (b) the force it takes to "break" the door catch (e.g. magnet) when opening the door. If you are able to use concealed hinges, a catch is not required, otherwise you might need to think carefully about what to use.

Try looking at it this way. What's the worst that can happen? If the doors do fall apart, you may need to do them again another way. So? You made them to start with so you have the skills to repair or remake them if you must. And that is only if they do actually break.

Mind you, I've never done doors this way before, so what do I know?


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