# 220v



## Iggles88 (Dec 8, 2011)

Hey all, let me preface by saying I don't know anything and I mean anything about electricity and how it's run. I have talked to my grandfather who knows quite a bit so I am trying to understand the little bit that he has told me. I checked the breaker box in the shop I'm currently using. It's a basement shop but it's not mine so I can't go changing things around. Anyhow there were no open spots for breakers. There was one breaker wired for 220 though and that was labeled drier. The drier in the basement isn't too far from where I keep my tablesaw but it's also not too close. About 20 feet. My question is, is it possible to run a 220 v tablesaw off of that outlet if the drier isn't running? And if so how would I get the wire to extend over to the outlet? Extension cord? I know this is not the ideal setup but it may be the only setup and I really want to buy a cabinet saw instead of a weaker contractor but I don't have 220 available except if that is an option. Thanks in advance. Oh and please go easy on me when your explaining things because otherwise I probably won't understand.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

*Yes* it will run it.
*NO *it is *NOT* a good idea. The reason it is NOT a good idea, the Dryer breaker is 30 amp, your saw will likely only need 20 AMP. IF something were to go wrong the Saw Motor would be ruined before the braker would trip !
Definetly DO NOT hardwire into the breaker.(Your exsisting oanel might not have enough power for another 220v. breaker) Just because there is a spot to instal breaker does NOTmean your panel box will carry the EXTRA load !
An Option might be, if *YOU ARE NOT *using the dryer, get an electrician (because you said you know *NOTHING *about wiring) to put a 20 amp breaker and the proper plug to match the size of breaker and run your saw with an extension cord.
*Do not want to scare you*...electricity is nothing to be fooled with, make a mistake and ELECTRICITY ALWAYS WINS !


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## Iggles88 (Dec 8, 2011)

The drier is going to be used I just thought it might be an option to use the saw when the drier isn't on and like I said I can't change anything around as it isn't my house, everything needs to stay as is. That was my only chance of getting 220 in the shop.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I wouldn't, brother. You'll get all kinds of contradictory information here, all with the best intentions. Just call an electrician. If you've got enough juice going to the subpanel (I'm guessing that's what you're looking at), he can install a new subpanel and the proper outlet to match your machine. I'm no sparky but I had mine upgraded within the year. They had to trench a new cable out to my shop, add a new subpanel, new outlets, etc., etc. and it was still only a few hundred bucks. Probably cheaper than a new motor for your saw. Definitely cheaper than the worrying you'll do if you don't. Good luck!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I wouldn't be afraid myself of exploring using the drier 
circuit. There will some workaround if you put your mind
to it but you may have to put in a couple of new breakers
to replace the ones that are there or do this:

Check the drier plug, breakers, the drier info panel and 
the receptacle to see what the amperage rating is. This
should be noted on all these areas. Report back.


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## rkober (Feb 15, 2012)

A good electrician would have the final word here but I have to chime in. The breaker is to protect the branch circuit wiring from shorts and NOT the saw motor. A cabinet saw has a starter/overload for protecting the motor. With that being said, if it was me, I would make a #10/2 with ground SJOW extension cord to run to the saw.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

Like Bertha said, you will get all kinds of contradictory advise here, but, oh well, here goes.
There is nothing wrong with using the dryer outlet to run your saw. 
You can buy, or have made, an extension cord that will plug into the dryer outlet and have a socket to match you saw. I would make this extension cord at least 12 gage wire; better to be 10 gage.
Before folks jump all over this recommendation and say the 12 gage wire shouldn't be plugged into a 30 amp circuit, consider any other appliance in your house. How many lamps do you have with 12 gage cord sets? None, because the NEC Code rules are different for wire to connect an appliance vs run inside a wall. Many lamps and other appliances only have a 18 gage or 16 gage wire. It's no problem.
As far as the 30 amp breaker not protecting your motor like a 20 amp breaker, that's not a big deal either. the dryer on that 30 amp breaker has maybe a 1/4 hp motor in it. The 30 amp breaker is there to protect the wire inside the wall to keep from burning the house down. Not to protect the load attached to the outlet. The code doesn't care what the load is going to be on the outlet as long as it's less than the rating.


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## Danpaddles (Jan 26, 2012)

I have to disagree with canadian chips. You do not have to have a breaker rated to the min. draw on a circuit.

You can run a heavy extension cord, a 3 hp saw draws about 17 amps.

rkober is on track, make yourself a nice heavy cord, you will be fine. 10/2 w/gr. The Electrician may wish to install a more suitable receptacle, you do not have to unplug the dryer and replug the saw after every wash day. And the dryer plug is way overkill for the load you have.

Go with what the electrician says.


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## North40 (Oct 17, 2007)

Glad I saw this thread! I just checked, and the motor on my coffee grinder is rated at .75 amps, but it's plugged into an outlet on my 20 amp kitchen circuit! Jeepers! Better have an electrician come wire me up a new circuit with a .75 amp breaker!


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Danpaddles: The second receptacle is bad advice because…....if given the chance *SOMEONE* that doesn't know *WILL* run *BOTH* saw and dryer at same time. (Nice helpful neighbor ladies dryer broke, you let her use yours, your in your shop. POOF !Why do we smell smoke )
PETER:
Your kitchen circuit has more than 1 outlet on that 20 amp circuit, which allows you to plug in more than 1 appliance at a time. coffee grinder .75 + toaster 7.5 + coffee pot 14.5 = *OH ******************** *too much already
and there is still the toaster oven. OMG !
Think about it !


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I don't see anyting wrong with using a #10 SO cord properly made up with ground condutor.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I should have said the saw should have a motor starter with overload protection or the motor may have it internally. Lots of motor circuits require a breaker or fuses a size or 2 too big for the wiring to handle the inrush current when the motor starts.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

+1 on using #10 cord grounded.

the 30Amp breaker in the panel is not there to protect your motor , but to protect the wiring inside the walls and prevent fire. as long as the breaker supports the load of the motor (12amp 220v?) you should be OK, for that matter, running a 12amp (arbitrary number) on a 20amp breaker, or a 30amp breaker will not make any difference protecting your motor. the motor itself (single phase) most likely has it's own breaker and reset switch to protect itself.

Just don't micky mouse with the extension cable and make a proper one - or get someone knowledgeable to make it for you.
Cheers.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Get an electrician. Ever seen an over-cooked hot dog?
I'm probably too cautious, but I'm still alive. I don't fool with elec. other than changin' bulbs and bad wall switches. I pull the main when I do that stuff.
Bill


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I should probably add that you need to look at the name plate on the motor to see what the FLA (full load amps) says. If it is over 24, you are getting into marginal territory for running on the dryer circuit. Even that high may have problems with the starting inrush current, but being a saw starting under no load, it will probably work.


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## Everett1 (Jun 18, 2011)

Nothing wrong with using it.

Unless my understanding is totally wrong by people that have helped me in the past with electrical, the comment above about the circuit being 30amp has nothing to do with being able to break your saw if it requires at LEAST 20amp. The breaker size of 30amp is to stop the wire from overheating and causing a fire (which is why it's important to use the proper gauge wire depending on the amperage). well, it's also to provide the said 30amps

Just make sure to make your extension cable (or buy one pre-made) that is 10 gauge, you should be good.

If the above about a 30amp breaker breaking a saw that required at least 20amp, then why don't all of your household devices that plug into 15amp breakers fry if they use below 15amp?

Just remember, make sure to use the right gauge of cable; the breaker rating depends on that when to know to flip before the wire causes a fire.


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Interesting:
All kinds of help.
No one knows what size of transformer is on the street providing the power.
No one know what size wire is coming into the house to the panel.
Np one know what size of panel box
No one knows what size of motor the "future saw" is .
No one know the electrical code in that area.
BUT some gave advice on speculation, because either they have done it that way all the time or they heard . 
When I do Home Inspections I am required to point out that if an extra plug is added to that dryer breaker it is a hazard. Insurance may be VOID.
I only offered suggestion to what IS safe. It is up to home owner what risk he is comfortable with.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

TopamaxSurvivor Is an electrician .
It may be possible to put half height circuit breakers in your panel box to make room for another 220 circuit . Like the others have said an electrician is the way to go. Some electricians will give you a free estimate.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Those are all valid considerations. When the dryer is unplugged, the saw will be about the same load.


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## rcs47 (Oct 31, 2009)

Canadianchips brings up some good points (do I hear Holmes Inspection?). From a utility point of view, you could have a problem depending on the saw size.

In our area, we have typically sized the conductors/service drop based on the panel size for residential services. But we size the transformer based on the expected demand, not the connected load. Unless it's a rural customer, we serve multiple residential customers from each transformer.

As Topa says, the dryer and saw should be about equal (I'll defer to his expertise inside the building).  The only potential problem could come from starting. Not with the equipment, but with your neighbors. We call it Radio, & TV Interference (RTVI). We see it a lot from people bringing a welder home, but we also see it with motors. In our service territory, if you cause the problem, and want to continue using the equipment, you pay all costs to correct the problem.

This might include:
- increasing the size of your service conductors
- increasing the size of your transformer
- installing a dedicated transformer
- or other steps

We all talk about, should I get a 5HP or a 3HP saw? A 5HP might be nice to have and do more, but it might also cost you more in the long run if you run into RTVI problems.

A call to your utility wouldn't hurt to ensure there is not a problem with your service.

Good luck,


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## ShipWreck (Feb 16, 2008)

Iggles?

What is the service/breaker panel rated at? (60 100 150 200)

You need to know that before you make any decisions.

*Here is a little scenerio:* It is a hot summers day, and the HVAC is running full tilt. The good wife is baking a nice apple pie. You have a few lights on and the wife has the TV turned up loud while shes baking. She may be running a mixer also. There might be a load in the washer. You are out in the shop getting ready to fire up that big ole 3-5 hp saw after you already started the dust collector.

You get the picture? Let's just say that you have a 100 amp service panel. You are already at that panel's limited amperage rating before you hit the on switch for the table saw.


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## Lilskip (Feb 29, 2012)

If you want to make an extension cord and are scared to put the load on the dryer outlet. I used one of the RV Temp Box with a 10 gauge cord with CB of your choice to make a really big Surge protector.


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## Bagtown (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi,

I just went through a similar situation.
I got a new 2hp 220v 9amp dust collector from busy bee just last month.
A few years ago we switched the kitchen oven/stove from electric to propane.
I had no 220 in my basement shop but that wire for the stove ran overhead in my shop. So I called a friend who is an electrician and asked if I could use that. He told me yes, it was possible to use it, but that it wasn't advisable because the breaker is 40amp. My motor is 9amps. He told me if something was to go wrong with the motor then it wouldn't break the breaker, and could possibly start a fire. He said if I wanted we could run a subpanel from that wire and have two 20amp breakers on it. I had one open spot on my panel. It's going to be a long time before I get a 3hp saw so the cheapest option for me was to run a new line and put a 20amp breaker in. He was too busy to help so I called another friend who is an electrician as well. We went through the same conversation. He also mentioned that if there was a fire and the insurance company found out that I now know the right way to have it wired I could have some serious problems with the insurance company.
So, the oven outlet is still there, and I have no more open spots in my panel, and I have a new 20 amp 220v breaker installed. When I asked why 20 amps for a 9amp motor, the answer was because of the higher power draw on startup.

Just my experience.

Mike


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## Gregn (Mar 26, 2010)

What's possible and what is acceptable are two different things all together.
*The best advice to your question is this.* To speak with the property owner about adding another circuit at your cost in using a licensed electrician. If he/she agrees, the electrician will be able to consult with you on the safest and cost effectiveness way to add an extra circuit. The electrician will know the codes for your local and will give you a cost for you to decide if it is worth your while to do or not.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

I made an extension cord for my arc welder that runs off the dryer outlet. Don't use it more than a couple times a year, and it annoys my wife when I leave the dryer unplugged, but it works fine.

That being said, I would side with the folks here who are recommending an electrician. This sounds like something you will want to be using on a more normal basis. Just get it done right, avoid any safety/insurance issues, and gain some peace of mind.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

I did just the same thing when I was renting. I used 10-2 w/ground, stranded [portable cable] and a dryer plug.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I had an electrician put a 60 amp sub panel into my shop which is an enclosed double car carport. I have more than enough breakers and it gives me plenty enough power since I only operate one machine and the dust system at a time. Most of my lights come from the main panel. I have never had a breaker kick and have plenty of flexibility. Whatever you do get an electrician to do it and have it inspected. It will make your insurance company happier if something happens.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com/


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## Dusty56 (Apr 20, 2008)

Should we assume that your landlord is thrilled to have your workshop in his/her basement ?
What are you using for dust control and do you have gas or oil fired furnace or water heater down there ?
What condition is the other basement wiring in ?
What kind of woodworking do you plan on doing that requires three or more horsepower ? Are you going to be ripping a lot of 8/4 Maple or other hardwoods ?

I had an Electrician wire my entire basement shop ,including its own subpanel , separately from the existing wiring. He also made me an extension cord for the 220v with some flexible , stranded wire and proper end plugs.
Don't use it often , but it's nice to know it is there if needed : )

1 : Talk to your Landlord
2 : Talk to an Electrician
3 : Decide what type of saw you really need.


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## hydrohillbilly (Jan 28, 2012)

I am a licensed electrician been that way for thirty years as long as your extension cord is made from a 3 conductor #10 and is not over 20 foot long you will be fine.#10 1s rated for 30 amps the breaker is designed to protect the wiring to your drier and any short circuit that should occcur in between saw away just don't use them both at the same time


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## Iggles88 (Dec 8, 2011)

Talked to the owner of the house, she was more then happy to allow me to hook my saw up to the drier outlet. Hydro hillbilly seems like he thinks it would be ok and considering he's an electrician im going to take his advice. This is definitely not ideal at all but for now its my only option and do not want to go with anything less then a cabinet saw. People have asked what my intentions are and what I'll be building and what woods I'll be cutting. I don't exactly think I'd need a cabinet saw but I would really like one and I know it will last me a very long time. Im either going to go with the grizzly g0690 the grizz 1023 or the shop fox (not sure model number) if anyone has any comments on these saws please let me know.


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