# First Impressions of the 10 piece set of Japanese Chisels from Grizzly



## PurpLev

nice. thanks for the review. I didn't even know Grz sold those type of things.


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## chewbuddy13

What do these cost? I've been looking to expand my chisel collection.


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## a1Jim

Thanks for the review . I have a set and I agree.


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## dkirtley

Scottymann:

They are $140 for the 10 pc. set. $14-$20 a piece if bought individually. Most places are about double that for similar chisels. That is why I was kind of nervous about picking them up. The prices go *way* up from there when you get into the boutique chisels of this style.

I figured that I would like them from other reviews but I am pretty spoiled to good chisels. Some of the mystical kind of things that they get into with Japanese chisels is (IMO) bunk but laminiated steel chisels are a serious step up. It allows the cutting edge to be really hard and the softer metal makes them a lot tougher and less prone to chipping and cracking. It is not something that is exclusive to Japanese chisels. Just about all the old western style chisels were made that way too. My only complaint about the old ones that I have is that they take some time to get sharpened. I don't even want to think about the time that it takes to lap the back of the blades.

Thankfully, they stay sharp a long time too.


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## dkirtley

Skarp:

Hey, that's why we are comparing notes  Quality control is *the* biggest issue when buying bargain tools. The materials are about the same across the board. Sometimes you can get something that is really great and turn around and the next one in the bin is a piece of junk.

If mine turn out funky, I will just pull out the torch and harden and re-temper them again. Its real easy. Putting up with a poorly tempered one would drive me nuts.


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## TopamaxSurvivor

Thanks for the insight guys


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## bench_dogg

I have this set as well and agree with all points above. I have noticed the sizing is a bit off on my set as well. I did chip one, the only chisel I have ever chipped. Since doing that, I use these for chopping only and am careful not to 'pry' with them.

The only thing I can compare them to are my HD Marples, which I believe are softer steel and ground to a lower angle (25 vs 30 if I remember correctly). The marples are easier to sharpen but the Grizzly chisels seem to hold an edge a bit better.

-bd


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## velo_tom

I've thought about eventually getting a set of Japanese chisels but will likely have to pay more for what I want. The Japanese stayed in a feudal period longer than the west and developed a highly refined sword technology.

Mid eighteen hundreds when the Samurai were no longer allowed to wear their swords the highly skilled sword smiths were out of a job. Many started making bladed tools such as chisels. The secret of the swords success and the good chisels too is the multiple tempering process that produces a very hard cutting edge supported by a less hard, less brittle back.

The dual temper produces a line that can be seen when viewed at the correct angle. I inherited one of the swords from my father who brought it back as a WWII war trophy. I'd like to eventually have chisels that display the same temper lines but will likely have to pay quite a bit more to get that.


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## b2rtch

I have a question about Japanese chisels: how do you get flat back and a straight cutting edge with the hollow grinding in the center? 
I was looking at a set not long ago and I notice that the hollow grinding started almost right at the existing sharp edge. 
What do you do when you reach the hollow grinding after few sharpening? 
What then happen to the cutting edge? 
Thank you.
Bert


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## dkirtley

Bert:

The hollow does not go all the way out to the edge. The sides of the hollow are like rails on the sides of the back surface.They guide the chisel as well as if it were flat. The hollow is there just to make it easier to flatten the back. You only have a small fraction of the material to remove to get the perimeter flat as opposed to having the grind the entire surface. When you sharpen it enough that there is not enough metal to form the back of the blade near the edge, you whack it on the other side and dent it out to form a new surface and then flatten again.

Rambling about high end Japanese chisels:

When you look at the more expensive Japanese chisels, it is not the tool steel that makes them pricey. Modern O1 or such carbon steel is much cheaper, higher quality, and more consistent than what they ever used historically to make cutting tools. The wrought iron component is what makes them more expensive. They are recovering and recycling old wrought iron to make up the body of the tools. It is more malleable and tougher than what is commonly available today.

Originally, the laminated construction was probably started to conserve steel but they found that making a composite of different metals actually improved the product and took the best properties of each. Hard steel sharpens well but is brittle. Soft iron doesn't hold an edge well but is more shock resistant. The modern steels are wonderful in some respects but until fairly recently, they did not have the toughness of the composites. Some of the artisan smiths figured out how to get good results but basically, they kept it secret to themselves which brought about some of the romantic and mystical stories of the metals. Modern metallurgy has reverse engineered the techniques. Wootz or Damascus Steel and such are pretty common now (but expensive). It does the same lamination idea but on a microscopic level. What made the Japanese swords so special was the differential tempering of the steel and the composite construction. They created a very hard and sharp edge with an incredibly tough body. The Arabs did similar things with their Damascus blades. All of finest metalwork such as the Japanese swords and the like could be consistently made as well or better on a mass scale than were ever made before using modern techniques and metallurgy. There is just not enough of a market for it.


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## b2rtch

dkirtley, thank you for your reply, I understand the purpose of the hollow grinding.
Just about two week ago I was taking a class at my local woodcraft and I was looking at Japanese chisels we other students. On these particular chisels I was looking at it was probably no more that 3 to 4 mm (less than a 1/4") between the cutting edge of the chisel and the beginning of the hollow grinding, even the manager of this store admitted that it was really not much to work with.
I read your explanation on how to form more grinding surface to sharpen, interesting.
Bert


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## Timbo

*dkirtley, b2rtch,* I agree with the hollow back making it easier to flatten. But I don't think you* "you whack it on the other side and dent it out to form a new surface"* When you flatten the back of the chisel, the hollow area will shorten creating a larger flat area at the tip.


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## dkirtley

Timbo:

Yeah, that is pretty extreme but I used to see the little hammer that was made precisely for doing that. Generally, it will never come to that. As the back gets ground down in the normal sharpening process, the flat section will migrate down the back of the chisel. About the only time you would have to resort to the whack-it method is when working out a badly chipped blade.

It really does not involve that much bending. A few thousandths of an inch goes a long way.

From Wikipedia:

"As the edge is sharpened down to the rim of the hollow, the edge can then be 'tapped-out' (ura-dashi), a process where a pointed hammer is used to depress the ha-gane downward slightly along the bevel of the blade. When the blade's back is re-flattened after ura-dashi, the hollow is re-established; thus the hollow acts as a sort of gauge for sharpening as a means of prolonging the life of the thin piece of cutting steel as long as possible."


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## b2rtch

Timbo, I agree with you, I find the technic of whacking the front quite strange but at the same time your explanation does not seems to be right either, to me, as what ever you do the hollow remains.So how to get a flat back again?

I goggled the question, I found many other people asking the same question but no affirmative answer.
It seems that when you reach the hollow you are done with this chisel.
Someone else suggest hammering the front. But then the front is all screwed up and what about the inner core of hard steel?
Seems strange.


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## Timbo

Ok I stand corrected…Somewhat. Read on from "Tools for working wood"

In theory, if you grind the tool's edge, you may have a sitiuation in which the back must be hammered out to fill in the hollow at the edge. But with normal usage, as long as you hone the backs when you hone the bevel, you should be fine and never have to tap out the hollow.


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## dkirtley

That's ok, I read some of these things and sometimes it is hard to know what to think. Different sources often give contradictory pieces of information. Add to that the fact that these tools are coming from a completely different culture with its own workflows and traditions.

We have also developed a culture of specialization separating the tool maker from the tool user. Most people are really hesitant to physically modify tools. I tend more towards the camp of reshaping and grabbing a torch and rehardening and tempering if I don't like a chisel. I figure that it's worthless if it is not working properly and I can't hurt it.


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## thatwoodworkingguy

I may have to get some of these


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