# How accurate is a used Starrett combination square?



## Smile_n_Nod

I bought a Johnson combination square from Home Depot earlier this year for a few bucks. When I took it home and tested it (by drawing a line perpendicular to the edge of a board, flipping the square around, and drawing another line), I discovered that it was horribly out of "square"; the ends of the two 12" lines that I drew across the board were almost 1/4" apart! I returned the square to HD and discovered that the other squares of the same model were similarly out of whack (sadly, a few days later I observed that the square I had returned had been put right back on the display, even though I explained how awful it was).

Later I bought a Craftsman square at Sears. This one tested out very well; the lines I drew perpendicular to the edge of the board were exactly parallel, at least as far as my eye could tell.

Since then, I've read a lot of comments by LJ forum members and by various web bloggers extolling the virtues of Starrett combination squares. My question is this: if the square I already own makes perpendicular lines with the same apparent evel of accuracy as a square that costs five times as much, do I really need a pricier square? Sure, it would be nice to have one, but what advantage does a Starrett square provide that a Craftsman does not?

Also, if I decide to drink the Kool-Aid and buy a Starrett, how good are the used squares on eBay? Does a Starrett square tend to stay true over decades of use, or do they ever get out of alignment, either with use or perhaps being dropped onto a concrete floor?


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## Loren

You don't need a Starrett.

A cheap square can be made accurate enough for woodworking by
filing the alignment tabs in the casting until it makes parallel lines 
when flipped.

Eventually, if you keep your eyes open, you'll find your Starrett at
a garage sale for a couple of dollars. I've found a few.


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## Bertha

I bought an expensive Starrett and compared it to my cheap ones. The cheap ones were just as accurate but the Starrett just feels really nice in your hand. Of course, vintage try squares feel even better but mine were WAY off.


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## TheDane

Starrett is top quality stuff, and if your budget permits, by all means go for it.

But Loren is right … I use Empire Level ( http://www.empirelevel.com/ ) combination squares that I bought several years ago at Menards. The ones in my shop (I have 5) are dead-on, and cost a fraction of what my neighbor paid for his Starrett.

If I owned a Starrett and knocked it off the bench, I think I'd go apoplectic over the idea of damaging such a fine tool. With the Empire squares … not so much.

-Gerry


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## PurpLev

I reviewed a starrett square as compared to an Empire (pro) square from HD. both were just as square!

the benefit of the starrett is that the machining is much better, and the operation is much smoother and easier to set at the correct values without fumbling around with it too much, but it is not any more square for sure.

that said, I replaced both my Empire squares with starrett equivalent because they were smother and easier to use but only did so when I found them at reasonable prices (estate sales). For my use and budget I would not buy them new at the store although if your work depends on it you may consider that a good investment.


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## Knothead62

Accuracy depends on how many times it was dropped.


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## BillWhite

My thoughts?
Stay away from Sears.
I boiught a Starret at an old shop for nuthin' (I think $10.00). It was a 4", and I use it all the time for needed layout.
Bill


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## Tedstor

I had a similar experience with a Johnson square. And I also found Empire to be a superior product in comparison. When I recently compared Craftsman and Empire, I found they looked pretty much identical. I suspect they were manufactured on the same line.

I do like the satin finish that Mitutoyo, Brown/Sharp, and Starrett offer on their rules. I recently bought a lightly used Starrett combination square head, but did not get a rule along with it. Paid $10 and can get a rule for $20-30. I figure its a good way to get into a Starrett at a realistic price.


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## richgreer

I purchased a Starrett combination square on e-bay for a relatively modest price (don't really remember but I know it was a low price). I'm delighted with it.

I can't justify the price of a new Starrett, but if you find one on e-bay at a good price, give it a try.

Don't be afraid of doing some clean-up. The best bargains on e-bay just need a little cleaning.


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## PeteMoss

If the tool you have does the job you need it to then it really comes down to what you want, not what you need. I do have to admit though that if you asked me what was my "favorite" tool in the shop, it would be my 12" Starrett Combination Square. It just makes me happy.


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## stevenhsieh

Maybe the board you used is not square.

But you can send the starret square back to the factory to be re- aligned again for free.


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## cjwillie

I have bought many used Starrett squares, scribes, and other machinist's tools that can be used for woodworking, from a guy at a local flea market. He sells new machinist tools and buys up used tools from guys that retire and resells them at the flea market. If you look for deals, they are out there. I'd rather buy quality used Starrett or Lufkin tools that I know will outlast me if I take care of them. It saves a lot of money.


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## Drengineer

I have a Starrett #4 combination square set that I have had for over 30 years. It is still accurate and the easiest to use of the many combi squares I presently use. I bought one from Sears a few years ago and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It was horrible. I also use a Sowa and a Mitutoyo but the one I always reach for first is my old Starrett. 
Another I got talked into buying is a Japanese one called Asimeto. Engineered in europe and manufactured in Japan but very nice as well. 
I love tools and make my living with them and find you cant go wrong with Starrett, Brown. And Sharpe or any of the top line names. They may cost more but last a lifetime and you can hand them down and the name still makes them appreciated.
Cheers


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## reedwood

I am very disappointed with the 12 and 6" combo squares out there today, mainly Johnson and Empire.

the tightening screw shaft eventually looses it's ability to hold the ruler and can be pulled out of square. I bought one recently and the notch that holds the ruler actually broke off… no, I didn't over tighten it.

I've been surfing E bay for months and see good deals on Starrett tools, including the box. I know they're more expensive but - look at what you're comparing it to. Something that is designed based on a perceived price point.

I also have some vintage Craftsman HQ squares that are really nice. They did make a few good industrial grade tools back in the day. Good prices on E bay too, considering everyone wants the Starrett.

My absolute favorite square is a little 6" rectangular shaped Starrett square I bought new from Woodcraft.

There is something about a Starrett when you hold it in your hand that makes you smile and say,

" My grand kids will own this some day."


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## fatman51

A used Starrett might be perfectly accurate, if it has been taken care of. The nicest square in my shop is probably my Starrett die makers square. I have a drawer full of squares, however, all sorts of brands and types, old and new. As a matter of fact I bought some of the oldest ones new, but that's another story. I have never found any problem with the Empire and, as someone already mentioned, the present Craftsman squares are the same as the Empire. The square I use the most in my workshop is a six inch,Swanson type, rafter square made by empire. it is quite accurate and I appreciate the simplicity of a triangle square. The tri-square I use the most is a Stanley, the combination square I use the most is an old Lufkin. I have a sixteen inch Swanson combination square that I have been quite happy with. The square I have owned the longest is a six inch Great Neck combination square that I got new in 1979. It has been a great tool. If one can have one square, the combination square is probably the best choice. All that matters is that your square is square.


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## ShaneA

If they are square that is a great start. I have a new Starrett square and a vintage one as well, along with some other newer makers. While the new ones are somewhat expensive, they do work well and should last a very long time. Plus the vintage Starrett stuff is just cool to me, in the same way as vintage Stanley Bedrocks. I just happen to like them. I look through the ebay listings regularly to pick off any good values on the old Starrett stuff.


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## Smile_n_Nod

I'll never buy anything made by Johnson, if I can help it. Both the framing square and the combination square that I bought were badly out of square.

I have a new Craftsman square from Sears that I think is very good-thought I've never owned a Starrett to compare it with.


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## mbs

i have a 6" and 12" starrett combo squares that arent square. I called starrett to ask them how much it would cost to make them square again and it cost almost as much as a new one.


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## cjwillie

We've got an old guy locally that sells machinist tools. He supplies a lot tools to the local trade and when the guys retire, he buys back their tools and sells them at several local flea markets. I have assembled a good collection of Starrett and Lufkin squares and tools for a fraction of the cost of new. You just can't beat the quality of these tools. It may be worth a look at some of your local flea markets for a guy like this.


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## unbob

Brown & Sharpe, luftkin, Scherr Tumico are good old brands also.
I like the heft, good locking, and smoothness of those industrial grade tools.


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## 9FINGERTIM

i love the three or four very old brass bound rosewood squares of various sizes ive picked up at estate sales they seem to stay accurate enough for me.my framing square is my dads old one and of course you cant read anything on it but I never use those measurement marks anyway.theres something about the olld brown patina of old metal that I love like an old gun.


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## Knothead62

Used Starrett? Accuracy depends on how many times it has been dropped. Unbob has listed some good alternatives. Spring for a new one if the budget allows.


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## helluvawreck

The accuracy of a used Starrett combination square depends on the treatment that it received by it's previous owners. However, in my opinion the square left the Starrett factory with the durability and accuracy to last a good machinist for his whole career and still be handed down to his son and be used a good many more years. I was only a self taught machinist and worked a good bit in our plant maintenance shop for a good many years and had a lot of Starrett tools. However, when I got covered up, I also farmed out a lot of jobs to several professional machinist who I got to know well and was privileged to see the insides of their tool boxes and see their tools. I learned quite a lot from those men over the course of the years.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## cjwillie

I have a small machinist's square that I use to check any used squares before I buy them. Used doesn't mean junk, there are many used tools that will give a lifetime of use at a fraction of the cost of new. You just have to pay attention and look at them a little closer. There's not too many new tools that I'm impressed with, and the ones that I am impressed with, I can't afford!


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## mdlund0

Don't think of a Starrett combination square as your everyday layout square, think of it as one of your ultimate references (along with a proper high precision straight edge). I say that because these tools are the references that you use to set up your equipment so that it is perfectly square/level/co-planar/etc. If you're only framing houses, then the nearest 1/8" and the nearest 3 degrees on an angle might be all you ever care about… these tools aren't necessary. If you're going to be doing fine cabinet making or other high precision wood work with complex joints where the finest details matter, then you're going to want that jointer and planer to be set up to within 0.001"... you need high quality tools that you can be sure of and rely on when making adjustments. Errors will propagate and magnify, so you don't want to start out the entire process with a tool that you're unsure of; that's where Starrett (or a comparable tool, e.g. Mitutoyo) come in. You buy a one new in the box and you can be assured that it is accurate to +/- 0.00001", you keep it in the box except when you need the accuracy and precision that it offers, you never lend it out, and you know that if you have a problem with your equipment that you have a reliable reference to fall back on. That's what Starrett is for.


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## NiteWalker

I disagree.
I bought my 12" starrett combo square knowing it would be one of the hardest workers in my shop. I bought it for reliability and ease of use; the head slides amazingly smooth.

For tool setup, an engineer's square or the starrett will work fine. There's no need to spend extra just to align tools.

Starrett's hold their value, and, so long as they're not abused, squareness. That's why there's so many old one for sale that still check out as square.


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## tenderfoot

I used to work in a machine shop and a lot of guys had Starret and a few used Mituyoto micrometers and calipers. Both were good, but I like Mitutoto a lot more than Starret as they preform just as well for a bit less. A few guys bought some squares (can't remember what type though) but most folks just made them on a mill (they literally made a square and would weld things together at right angles based on that square, I think they did that more as it was better than some other tedious work, I used one I found under my bench that happened to be accurate). Those square squares made good masters. But one thing I learned was that the tools are only as accurate as the person using them.


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## PASs

Hmmm, 
Got a bunch of squares, as long as they are square I can't see any difference in who makes them.
Heck, I've got a square I made out of a couple of scraps of plywood, but it's square, and straight.
If I'm doing something that requires accuracy I just check the one I grab to make sure it hasn't gotten whacked.
Having said that, if I can find a good tool used I'll buy it in a heartbeat.


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## distrbd

Believe it or not the most accurate square I have that I compare all my try squares against, is a 12" plastic drafting square, bought from office depot.


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## BBF

30 plus years as a toolmaker and I can't say enough good things about Starrett. Most of my precision tools are Starrett.


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## NiteWalker

I stopped comparing squares to squares; I use the scribe a line and flip method. Works well enough for me. I just checked all 4 of my squares a couple of days ago, and all check out square.


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## Ripthorn

The thing about Starrett, etc. is that they really aren't made and geared toward woodworkers. They are made for machinists. While with a pencil line something may look square, with a sharp scribe in metal there may be a difference of a very small fraction of a degree. The machinist in our shop at work has a sign that reads "The more 0's to the right of the decimal point = more $$$$ to the left of the decimal point". Just because we don't necessarily see it in woodworking doesn't mean a difference doesn't exist. I have recently started in on metalworking and machining in addition to woodworking, and it is a totally different ballgame. Their tools are so much more expensive because even the cheap metalworking tools are typically on the same order of accuracy as really nice woodworking tools.

For example, I got a standard 0-1 micrometer. It measures to the nearest 1/10000". That is over 100 times finer resolution than a ruler graduated to 1/64. It's all just a difference of what the needs are, not that any one camp is better or worse. It's simply that a Starrett, while a joy to use and certainly useful in a woodworking shop, was not made for that purpose. So saying that a Starrett is overpriced is only true from a woodworkers standpoint, as most machinists will never complain that the price is exorbitant. Sure there are some other brands that are cheaper, but Starrett has earned the reputation that demands such a high premium.


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## crank49

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the head on the Starrett squares is cast iron and all the cheap tools like Johnson and Stanley are pot metal (die cast zinc).

Also the lines and numbers on the rules of Starrett are acid etched into the metal and crisp and highly readable against the flat ground matte finish of the blade surface, instead of just stamped in like the cheaper products.

There are some very real manufacturing differences in Starrett, and other high end tools, when compared to the cheap mass produced price point tools. It cost a lot more to manufacture this kind of quality.

Having said all that, I will say that among the cheap brands, it seams that Empire attempts to make a higher quality product than some of the others, IMHO. I really like their extruded and anodized aluminum "Speed Square".


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## jeffl

I used Starrett when I was a machinist . Wood moves and the tools aren't that accurate , especially if you drop your tools on concrete often .


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## realcowtown_eric

Square is square is square.

The flip over methodology for testing squares is "close enuf" in the carpentric sense, It is not precise enuf in the jointery field.

Most machinists shops have reference squares, and a quick trip there and maybe a few bucks to the coffee fund will let you check what you think is yer best square againgst their standard. If you live in Calgary, give me a call and you can use mine for free.

I must have 20 framing squares, and last time I checked em, fully 50% of them failed.

Kinda reminded me about shopping for a 6' level, set up a level on the floor of the store and checked each one end to end. only 1 in 5 passed, the others didn't read level either way (switching them end for end)

Starret squares are one of the best on the try-square list, the modern equivalent being aluminium bodied, susceptible to wear. And I've long since learned never to trust the bubble in any try square. (precision in bubble technology has taken a dive x 75 years ago. they are simply not accurate nor trustable)

Starrett squares with the bevel protractor are indespensible in any shop, and they can be picked up for 20-40 bucks at a flea market complete- maybe even in the box. . 12" rule is common, 18" less common, 24" quite rare. Scope out the rule attachments, end-on-end, square attachments, stuff no other mfgr makes available. Go to the starrett website and request a catalogue to educate yerself as to what else they have available.


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## NiteWalker

"The flip over methodology for testing squares is "close enuf" in the carpentric sense, It is not precise enuf in the jointery field." 
I respectfully disagree.

If one uses a knife doing the flip test, the results are even more accurate than using a pencil.
Square enough for machine setup where the joinery takes place? Plenty.


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## kmd45heels

I have my starrett square since 1974, I have dropped it from benches, dropped it from 10' ladders ( construction worker), and cut halfway thru the head with a chop saw. It is still dead on.


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## planepassion

Your Starrett takes an licking and keeps on ticking eh kmd45heels?


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## MrRon

I have a Starrett square and I use it mainly to check cheaper squares that I us in the wood shop. I keep the Starrett for my metal working projects. For woodworking, you don't need a Starrett.


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## BillWhite

I don't EVEN want to sound like a smart a$$, but…....
Did ya have the clamp tightened? I have forgotten to do this several times, and wondered why my square wasn't square.
PLEASE don't think I'm condescending.
My old and simple Stanley (USA) combo has been a work horse. The Lufkin 6" is my go-to for metal work.
Bill


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## 2sooners

Starrett is made from hardened steel and usually calibrated when in shop use. Most new US made steel try squares
are good to .006 and are good to test other squares. Really, Any square that will flip test and stored safely will do for wood. It is all about having at least one exhalted pristine square in the shop. Larger the better. Cheers!


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## bondogaposis

I bought several Starrett squares on ebay and all were true. They can also be tweaked if they are a bit off. So far I have not needed to do that. I think part of the appeal of Starret is, it is a lifetime tool.


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