# Joints that line up...or how I'm completely incapable of doing precision woodworking.



## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

Just started my first proper woodworking project, that being Woodgears.ca Bandsaw, and one thing I've quickly learned, is that making joints that actually line up 100% of the time is some kind of sorcery to me.

I cut each piece perfectly. Measured them all up, each board is square, and come glue up time where I was expecting to put together a puzzle, it's anything but.

So what can the wizards of old teach me about this? What am I doing wrong? I'm using 1×6 s4s pine from the local big box store, and don't have a planer or jointer yet. Would that be the culprit?


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## Benvolio (Feb 10, 2013)

knife walls are your friends!!

Paul explains here 




If you're currently using a pencil to trace the outside of one joining peice to the other - then when you cut them you need to make sure you're cutting INSIDE the pencil line so the line remains visible at the end of the cut. Think about what's happening there - if you were to saw along the line, you've created but running a pencil on the outside of your joining piece then your mortice/pocket/rebate etc will be two pencil widths wider than it needs to be. In the world of tight joinery - that counts for a lot!

As fine wood workers we use knives to mark out our joinery.

1) place your piece to be fitted (we'll call this the tenon) where you want it to meet the pice you want to cut (we'll call this a mortice but the principles are the same whether cutting with a saw or chisel)

2) grab a stanley knife (more refined knives are avaiable but a stanley will get you started) and trace the outline of the tenon onto your mortice piece. To make it super accurate, you should lean the blade out slightly so the natural bevel of the blade edge runs flush along the wood.

3) with your score line in place, you can grab a sharp chisel and in the waste side of the line, you can pare away the top 0.5-1mm beside the line. This will give you a little channel for your saw to run inside, or your morticing chisel to reference from.

using the knife wall will not only make your joints accurate to the width of the sharp edge of a knife blade, but will also help you prevent tear out from the saw, and will give you give you a helping hand to get your cut started.


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

Hey Ben,

Great tips, however in this case, I'm talking about cuts made on a table saw.
For instance, if I take a cut list, and cut everything to measure up, when it comes time to the glue up, things aren't perfect anymore. It's strange.


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

One thing I learned is to NOT cut out all parts at the beginning - but instead, cut out only the parts for one joint. Test these parts in a dry-fit situation, then move along to the next set of parts. Try to avoid gluing up EVERYTHING at once, but instead, glue up in sub-assemblies wherever possible. Then glue together the subassemblies. That could allow for better fits.

Just ideas, but I hope they help.


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## Timbo (Aug 21, 2008)

Framing lumber can be wet, are you bringing the wood home and letting it stabilize for a few days/weeks? The wood may be moving after you cut it, Try cutting to a rough dimension then stack it and let it dry for a week or so then make your final cut.


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## toddl1962 (Feb 12, 2013)

I have also found that when I rip pine boards sometimes there are stresses in the wood that cause the resulting edge not to be straight. In fact those stresses have caused the wood to bind against the blade at times!

Before I had a jointer I would route the edges of the boards using a table edge (known straight, of course) to create pretty good joints. If you don't have a router you're completely dependent on the quality of your tablesaw and wood for straight edges.


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

The wood is supposedly kiln dried…so I never really thought. I cut my pieces weeks ago, and am still in the process of doing the frame glue up. ( Don't have nearly the time I thought I did going into this! LOL )

I know I need a jointer and a planer…just don't have the money, and there aren't any on Craigslist in my area.


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

How were you squaring/flattening your boards without a jointer? If things were really flat and square you should be fine.

I ask because many folks resort to doing edge jointing with a router or table saw if they don't have a jointer….it helps and can be close, but it doesn't necessarily create a true reference point. A jointer's primary task is to flatten a reference face, and then square an adjacent edge….if the jointer is true, the board will be flat on one face and perfectly square on one edge….then the board is ready for the planer to make the other side parallel to the reference face, and ultimately to be ripped to final width. There's a difference between a board that "appears" to be flat, and one that is truly flat….if the face of the board isn't truly flat, the attempts to square an edge with the TS or router will be somewhat random and won't necessarily be a true 90° to the face, which can ultimately cause things to not line up well.

My method is pretty much what Norm Abrams, David Marks, Tommy Mack, and the Woodsmith Shop gang do:
1. Create a flat reference face on the jointer
2. Flip the board on edge with the flat face against the jointer fence, and edge joint a square 90° edge to the reference face.
3. Put the board flat face down on the planer and make the top face parallel to the reference face at final thickness…you now have two flat faces that are parallel to each other at a uniform thickness, plus there's one perfectly square edge adjacent to both faces.
4. Put the square edge against the TS fence and rip to final width.
5. Crosscut to length.

There are other methods for flattening and squaring besides a jointer, but it's the most efficient and effective method that I know of. It's really all about creating a reference point on the board to use against your tool's reference points.


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

I buy s4s…and rip and cut on the table saw.

That's all I can do for right now without a joiner and a planer. =(


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## knotscott (Feb 27, 2009)

S4S can still move on you after you buy it….and who knows how flat and square it really was in the first place.

I'd save my pennies and look for a good deal on CL…..a used planer and/or 6" jointer are a reasonable starting point IMO. You'll make up the cost when you start buying rough sawn lumber, reclaimed, or repurposed lumber, etc.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Reality Check:

You think you cut your parts 21" long and with 90 degree joints. The reality is that you cut several parts 20.987" and several 21.011" long. The joint angles vary from 89.997-90.014 degrees. When the first parts get glued up there's a tiny gap in the joint so now the parts take on a new angle.

Now if your furniture requires three dozen operations to complete, multiple the above errors 36 times. Each cut and each joint puts your work further out of the intended position.

Factor in shrinkage, swelling and warping and everything becomes impossible to assemble properly.

The best way to work is to cut your parts over-sized and set them aside while you begin the first portion of the project. Measure, mark and fit each assembly as it is needed.

I have everything designed and modeled perfectly on the computer before I start building anything. However, I still don't try to cut all the parts at once. I work with small portions and fit them together carefully as I go. My measurements don't need to be perfectly on target so long as they fit exactly where they need to go.


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## HerbC (Jul 28, 2010)

If you're using construction grade lumber, the KD stamp is usually a KD19 stamp, meaning the lumber is kiln dried to 19% moisture content. It should dry further in shop before you start milling parts.

Good Luck!

Be Careful!

Herb


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## RPhillips (May 16, 2013)

Good Info here for us wood noobs!


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## firefighterontheside (Apr 26, 2013)

I'd say since you don't have the tools used for straightening at your fingertips, it's very important that you get the straightest boards that you can. When I buy from HD or other I will commonly go through 10 boards to get one good one. When you take it to the table saw look at both sides and pick the best side to put against the fence. If you put a concave side against the fence you will end up with a ripped board that is narrower in the middle. When you put the convex side against the fence you will get a ripped board that has the same curve as the original, which will be better. Also all that other stuff that the others have suggested.


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

All great tips guys…I've been watching craigslist for a long time…nothing but those crappy old sears jointer/planers that people want 200-300 for! Crazy.


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## Laban (Oct 8, 2013)

I agree with you. I have a stack of beautiful wood just begging for me to start on some xmas presents, no planer and a bad jointer and no way possible to spend money on them I am stuck with being frustrated and not even wanting to go to the garage. I have been watching craigslist and papers in my area for about 2 years for those items and a bandsaw and haven't found anything that isn't a pile of rust or only about $25 cheaper than a brand new one. I broke down and spent the money on a porter cable benchtop jointer about 1 1/2 years ago thinking it would be better than what I had which was nothing…I now am about $200 poorer and still have nothing lol. Without having much expierience fine tuning tools I can't figure out whats wrong with it. Everything I find on how to properly tune it requires another $100 in finely tuned straight edges, gauges, specialty shims and a bunch of other stuff that I can't afford. It is a frustrating feeling for sure


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

No jointer or planer or hand planes? That kinda sorta sucks…
How about a decent router in a router table? If you've got one of those we can come up with a good jig for getting a flat/straight edge.

A good rip blade will help on the TS, as will making sure the fence is dialed in to .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 or less on the runout.

But like everyone else said, if you're using bad lumber, you'll get bad results.


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## tefinn (Sep 23, 2011)

Have you thought about a table saw jointing jig? Combine that with a router jig for planing and you can get reasonably good results. A good crosscut sled will help with keeping the ends square.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

hogwash

the lack of common sense is the quickest way to take perfectly good ideas and flush them into the sewer

blaming tools is a poor reflection into what lacks in being "common"


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

Your name is apropos.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

if I were but a rusted tool and a faded memory

my strength would lie in my ability

to shave

without Wal Mart


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

wtf is a "proper woodworking project" ?

do tell ?


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

its tough to perfect a silk hat when you pick straw as a medium

sometimes. if not for at every moment, dreams of perfection are almost always based on a common denominator called a "budget"

no BIG budget……….. Failure

certain exceptions applied


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## Ocelot (Mar 6, 2011)

I picked up a little HF jointer for $200 (brand new) some time ago. With careful setup and adjustment, it's just fine. It's *way* better than nothing! Keep an up-to-date 20% off coupon and wait for them to go on sale.

Hmmmm. I just looked on the HF site and they no longer list that jointer.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 23, 2012)

Just a bit of lightening up. Some time after i purchased my first RAS a neighbor brought over a piece of molding to cut. I asked him whether he wanted me to cut off the pencil line or leave it? After a bit of indecision I decided to try to spit it. He brought it back twice for another try, finally I went over to see what he was doing wrong. He had paneled his dining room and was installing molding. i asked what he was measuring it with and he produced a one foot ruler. I loaned him a tape measure and we finally got things to fit.


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## Beorn (Sep 23, 2013)

A bunch of good advice here. To this I would add that not only should you cut your parts to size one step at a time, but also don't just measure from the cut list. Measure from your existing parts as well. For example, if you are making a box and cut the four sides then move on and cut the top or bottom without first looking to see how the sides fit together, you could miss that the pieces may have changed in overall dimension due to to moisture content, warping, gobblins etc.. I measure from my work not from whats written on the paper, I use a marking knife not a pencil, I take my time and work slowly and methodically. This has really helped me become a more accurate woodworker.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

Hey Goonie..I tried to see where you are located. Quite often you can find another LJ in your area that will be able to help you. It's worth a try.


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## toddl1962 (Feb 12, 2013)

Hey Goonie ignore Moron. I have seen his abusive posts before. You are learning, just like me. I hope you have found some helpful answers here.


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks toddl1962, absolutely. Everyone (sans moron) was more than helpful, and I've learned a great deal.


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## Loco (Aug 11, 2013)

Quit using crappy layout devices and pencils made for wood butchers and think like a machinist.If you cant mark a board and cut it to within .030 your layout and/or machine setup is corrupt. Get some cheap Chinese measuring tools (depth mic or calipers) some steel rules and a few scribes.Tape measures suck for fine work too.
If that doesn't work, take up welding. You can beat the hell out of it with a hammer and fill it with molten metal


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## Walt447 (Aug 18, 2010)

This may be too simple but it messed me up many times when I first started. DO NOT CUT ON THE LINE LEAVE THE LINE AND SAND TO IT. When you cut on the line the saw kerf will put you at least 1/16 to 1/8 off. Also make sure the table is 90 degrees to the bla


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

Honestly Walt, that was new to me. I was always taught (incorrectly) to cut at the line.

This little tip will help for sure.


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## exelectrician (Oct 3, 2011)

Goonie, At the big box store pick the 2X12X16' at the bottom of the pile. These big boards are the driest you will find, they often have two plus years drying in air-conditioned (low humidity) conditions. That is what I do, the guys helping you get what you want at the store will get over whining as soon as you leave with your loot!


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## Goonie (Sep 25, 2013)

exelectrician, I do the same thing! hahaha


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## alan23 (Apr 10, 2011)

you have to be able to mill your own lumber,there is no way your ever going to by lumber milled out of a box store and build anything I buy my lumber in the rough and mill it myself.I understand the cost of machinery but when you buy lumber milled it is three times as expensive so a planner will pay for itself in no time and you will have flat lumber.I do'nt even have a jointer I flatten one side right on the planner with a torsion box jig I made then I start planning the other side


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## BustedClock (Jun 30, 2011)

If you go looking for Paul Sellers' video on knife-walls, also look for his video on using a Stanley #4 hand plane to get S4S boards from rough-milled lumber. There's nothing a planer can do that a well sharpened #4 can't; albeit the planer is much faster.

I got my best Stanley #4 on eBay for < $40, including shipping. I must warn you, however, after you use a good quality hand-plane, there's a good chance you'll become a member of Hand-Plane-Oholics Anonymous, found elsewhere on LJ!


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## Sigung (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm fairly new at this, but not entirely, so my initial problems, frustrations, and ultimately, solutions are still very fresh in my mind.

A couple of things come to mind. When I first started encountering problems like the ones you are describing, I spent hours trying to square up my table saw, fence, etc, to make sure thing came out right.

They still didn't. Even though I checked the end result and everything looked perfect, in actual practice, things did not fit.

Wracking my brains for solutions, I finally, on a whim, decided to check the accuracy of my carpenters square and try square.

My carpenter's square was a Stanley, so it never occurred to me to equate that venerable name with poor quality, until I discovered that it was out a full 1/32" in a scant 24" run. *This was what I was using to square my table saw with!!!*

Then everything was suspect, so I checked my Harbor Freight square and found it to be out 1/32" in a 12 inch run!!!

After that I bought a Mitutoyo square and protractor set and things then improved dramatically in my shop. I say improved, not perfected You say the pieces are square..no doubt you are checking them with your square, but have you checked your square(s)?

First lesson learned- Accuracy is expensive, but not as expensive as wasting wood time and again, and an inaccurate measurement at the beginning of the workflow will cascade down through any future projects.

Second lesson learned - Wood is always moving, so you have to let it acclimate in your shop for a couple of weeks before you start working with it, and when you do, it absolutely must be planed, either with a hand plane or a jointer, but don't plane it until you are ready to assemble and glue the piece up. If you plane it and leave it for a couple of days, it's not the same piece of wood you had when you started, it's moved…

Third lesson learned - No matter HOW accurate your tools and technique are, you have to make a thing unto itself, not unto the almighty ruler or square. We are human, and inconsistencies sneak in no matter how hard you try to be accurate, so the frst thing that fits to the second thing or the other thing needs to be fit to the first thing or the other thing, NOT to the ruler. That's why when you mark out pins for dovetails, you use the previously cut tails to mark the pins, not a ruler or a bevel. Fit the pieces to each other, not to the plan.

Fourth lesson learned - What happens in the shop, stays in the shop. Every successful woodworker has mastered the art of turning a mistake into a "feature" . You have to understand that the maker and the material both are imperfect, and the results will compound that imperfection, so learn to think on the fly, the valuable art of looking beyond your mistakes to a result that will ultimately work. You will get there.

All the best to you. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.


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## RichInSoMD (Jan 16, 2012)

Joshua,

I don't have a jointer or planer either. I found an Amish furniture/cabinet maker in my area and I buy lumber from him and pay him to joint & plane the boards for my project. He also has a large sander that is cool. If I edge-glue some boards, I bring the panels to him to run through the sander to dress the glue joints. To buy his jointer, planer, and sander just couldn't be justified. Maybe if you look around your area you might find a cabinet shop you could work with. Also, you are bound to make some mistakes. It is hard to make everything perfectly. You have to live with small mistakes and get better as you go along.

RichInSoMD


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

You could try buying some hand planes either new or used. A #4 smoother, a #5 jackplane and a #6 or #7 for jointing.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

IMO, 

 Build a tablesaw SLED to improve your cuts
 Do your assembly glueups as quickly after making your cuts as possible. Big Box Store Pine seems to breathe/move with changes in the weather and time of day.
 I made the same mistake with the above, not realizing that construction Pine is only dried to about 19% where typical woodworkers Pine is in the low single digits %-wise. Wet wood causes more movement.

MY SLED:


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## GT350 (Dec 22, 2012)

I didn't read all the posts and this may have already been mentioned but besides letting the wood acclimate in the shop for a week or two, I always cut the wood to rough demensions then stack it with stickers in between till the next day. When I come back in the shop then I take it to the final dimensions. 
Mike


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## whitewulf (May 11, 2010)

Flattening & squaring, should be done after rough cutting, & acclimating to your shop.
Now all you need is a couple of hand planes! It is not nessary to plane every surface, just the critical surfaces(the ones that make the actual joints). 
One "jackplane" could be used if that is all you have. You might learn to like the hand methods!
Of course yo could spend nearly as much for top of the line planes as "Tailed Demons". A little careful shopping
should provide what you need to start.


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## ScottinTexas (Jan 24, 2013)

That is a pretty advanced project to start off with. 

Lot of good tips here.


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