# Source for tape measure with blank space at the beginning



## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

I hope this is the right forum - didn't see what looked like a better one…

As stated in the title, I am looking for a source for tape measures that don't start at 0. I'd like it to be 1/2" x 12' but would take almost anything. The best I've seen so far is 1/4" x 6'. Not only is 1/4" not very useable, but 6' is simply not long enough.

To answer the sure-to-be-asked question, in one of our departments we can't use the tang to measure with - where we're cutting picture frames to size. Since we have many profiles (and often do one-offs) and do not cut standard sizes, we have to accurately measure each one at the inside rabbet measurement. Holding at the 1" mark works, but not well. We just had to re-make a $1500 (wholesale) frame because of this problem, which has prompted me to start looking.

I've considered making a rule with a piece of wood and putting a self-adhesive tape on it, but that would be very unwieldy and I'm afraid it would end up not being used.

Any other suggestions welcome.

TIA


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Have you considered a folding wooden rule?


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## pierce85 (May 21, 2011)

The first thing that came to mind were the various FastCap tape measures, but then they all utilize a tang design. Nevertheless, they do develop products from ideas from those in the field. You might want to shoot them an email and see if they can come up with something that would fit your needs.

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/Submit-An-Idea-to-FastCap-d67.htm


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

Uh…. not to pee in anyone's Cheerios or anything, but that tangalso keeps the tape from simply coiling up inside the case, never to be seen again.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Take the tang off and epoxy a piece from another ruler to extend the end the desired distance.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

I hadn't considered a folding rule, but I don't think it would work well. We still need a 0 at a very define point - we like to be able to measure to within a 1/64 and holding the end of a rule to the inside edge of a miter would be difficult to place.

I'm not saying we don't want a tang, it's just that we can't use it for measuring because it will not reference the inside edge of a miter.

Regarding taking the tang off and extending it, that may work. We'd have to make a careful marking on the extension as to where 0 actually was, because a regular tape doesn't go all the way down to 0 - it stops short at the thickness of the tang.

I have located a single 1" x 30' Starrett model, but I think it may have been custom made as looking up the model number on their website shows a regular tape measure. We are pursuing that angle, and I will also take a look at Fastcap.

Thanks,


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

A picture of what you are doing would be worth 1000 words.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

How's this?


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## Wdwerker (Apr 14, 2012)

Lee valley / Veritas has just what you need. It has a magnet to stick to your tape, it has an inside and outside 45 end and it has two little sharp pins that stick in the end of the miter so you can measure from the inside or outside of the cut. Little flat thing a bit bigger than a credit card.


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## Wdwerker (Apr 14, 2012)

Called a Miter Hook 50N37.01. It's under" other " marking tools. $9.50


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=56766&cat=1,42936

If so, that doesn't work for two reasons. First, you need to add an inch (better than subtracting, because if you make a mistake at least it will be too long…), but more importantly it's designed to measure a corner that is put together. We need to measure the piece before it's put together.

Interestingly enough, they DO have a tape measure that's what we're looking for in principle, but it's not long enough and it's cloth.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/gifts/page.aspx?p=55316&cat=4,55972


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Whoops. Posted before you did your second post…
Will take a look.


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## junebug (Oct 26, 2011)

I think Wdwerker linked what you are looking for.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

If all else fails, talk to the president of Fastcap (seriously). He may decide your idea is worthy of producing for sale. I've personally been in contact with him (only once) and he's quite personable and very willing to listen to customers.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

In another direction…

For high precision work, I prefer metal cabinet maker's rules. I'm equipped with 6, 12, 24, 36, and 48" versions.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

I did talk with the Fastcap guy. He basically said that the timberframe industry wants a 1" x 30' tape with 10" leading space and that he didn't see a market for what I was looking for. However, if I would order 500 he would make 1000 and hold the other 500 (presumably to sell himself if possible, or to me if I marketed them and re-ordered). I may still consider this option.

I'm going to order that "miter hook" and give it a try. Basically, we have a direct read scale built into our "chopper" (guillotine miter cutter) that goes up to 60", so up to 60" we are just checking the measurement. But once we get over 60" we have to use a tape to mark, and then check the measurement, so we would only use this for sizes over 60", as it would be a bit cumbersome for everyday checking (I think). However, I think it will not only make our over 60" marking more accurate, but also easier, as now we have to either have someone hold the 1", or set it yourself and hold it still as you walk to the other end. We may also get one of the 1/4" x 60" to use for our everyday checking so that we are always using the same measurements.

BTW, it's even a little more complicated than that, because the default measurement call for adding a 1/8" allowance onto the specified measurement, i.e. a 16×20 frame is actually cut to 16-1/8" x 20-1/8" to allow for tolerances in fitting. And then some customers only want a 1/16" allowance, or have figured out how much allowance they want and will specify an exact measurement.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Metal rules are great, but we would need them (and a good/convenient space to store them) 6 to 12' long. They would be very awkward to handle if available.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Very true! Those are some big frames!

Imagine how much a good 12' steel rule would cost? ;^)


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

There are several reasons we don't do the math and mark/measure the outside.


Most often we are cutting moulding that's already finished, and running a tape down the outside of the moulding would increase the chance of damaging it.
Hooking the tape on the end of the miter may damage what is a very delicate part of the piece. Remember, it's usually prefinished.
This wouldn't apply to measuring (to check), but marking would not work on the outside because of the way the chopper is set up - you can't see the outside of the moulding (ignore the piece of paper in the picture… but that's where the moulding would go, back against the fence).










This is just a guess, but I'd think there would be a larger likelihood of a math mistake than forgetting to add an inch.
But the biggest reason is that it would be a tremendous amount of work. Every frame is a custom size, typically to 1/16", and we have about 50 different profiles with about 20 different widths so you'd have to look at a chart and add a different amount based on the profile. It is not unusual for us to do 25-50 frames a day, and as many as a couple hundred. Below is a list of a typical assortment of sizes - it could take someone an hour to figure them all out.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Yes, we have two Morsos. We had bought a 14" Pistorius to add to our first Morso but just didn't like it. Too noisy, too dusty, couldn't see where you were cutting, cutoffs would sometimes bind and go flying, quality of cut was not consistent. Enough was enough so we sold it and got a second Morso. We picked it up "used" (our original one is over 30 years old and still in good working order, this one didn't even have an paint wear) for $850 including 3 sets of knives. They are awesome machines if you get and keep the blades properly sharpened.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Take the tape out of any tape measure casing, paint over 
the markings, and stick ""jig tape" on it.

It may or may not recoil properly, but it's an easy thing
to try out for a few bucks.

For that matter, why not paint out the first 12" of a
tape and stick little replacement numbers over every 
foot marking? You could scratch out the paint 
and stamp every foot with embossing number stamps - 
it would be a bit ugly but the numbers would be 
permanent.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Another couple good ideas. But we measure in inches only, not feet/inches so that one is probably not feasible.

I guess another variation would be a 20' tape and cut off the first 8' or so, and just know that you're ignoring the leading 1 (110" = 10"). The feet/feet-inches would obviously be meaningless.

An earlier suggestion was to remove the tang and epoxy a piece from another tape onto it. The problem with that is you would need to place the extension precisely and keep it there while the epoxy sets up. Plus you would need to be very careful at the joint because 0 will be less than 1/16" from the joint. On another forum someone had suggested cutting off a few inches of the original tape and riveting (could be epoxied too) a piece of plexiglass on, which could then be scribed at the 0.

Again, thanks for all the suggestions. I'm sure we'll come up with a winner somehow.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

"... not to pee in anyone's Cheerios or anything, but that tangalso keeps the tape from simply coiling up inside the case, never to be seen again.  "

Hey, Charlie, I thought the saying was, "...piss in your Post Toasties?". LOL!


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

One could make that miter hook in about 5 minutes.

FasCap does have a Story board tape where one half is blank(for writing on). Scratch out all the original numbers and write your own in(starting from the original 4" mark).

Yes, many roads lead to Rome.  Hope you find the road that works for you.

The length from the short side of that 45 to the tip(measuring parallel to the edge of the material) is the same as its width. A very simple spreadsheet could figure out those calculations in about 1/2 a second.

You send me the numbers and I'd be glad to make it up for you.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Yes, the calculation is simple. But typing into a spreadsheet as many as 8 cells for each frame (profile #, allowance, dimension 1, numerator 1, denominator 1, dimension 2, numerator 2, denominator 2), then writing down the result takes time. Try it out on the above list, including writing it down, legibly and without mistake. And there's still the issue of marking the outside of a finished moulding *and* the fact that we can't see the outside (not well enough to be confident of it) when cutting.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

If it were me doing that sort of volume and I had the space 
I would probably make a custom tool with a long bench and 
one fixed blade to mark zero on the moulding and a movable 
stop with a blade to mark any distance. Lay the moulding on
the bench, activate clamp aggregates, mark zero, walk the stop 
to the length and mark it. Using razor blades to mark would 
eliminate errors due to penciled line width and user errors 
with the tape of course.

A tiger stop could totally make the length a no-brainer, though
it's an underuse of a robust tool to just use it for marking.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

If it was something you couldn't do yourself, I'd do it for you. Really.

Or have a generic chart. Do the numbers for all widths(in 1/16" increments) and have them in a big chart. Just pick the one out you need and look at the numbers for that one. Not being familiar with all your related numbers, I don't know if that would be possible. Would this even help, given what you said earlier about not being able to even see the long end?

...Or the Lee Valley Story Tape










Make all the marks you want.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

I may not have been clear. We only *mark* sizes that are too big for the direct-read scale (it goes to 60", but is useable to about 58" frame size depending on the width). However, I would like to be able to use the same method for checking dimensions of shorter lengths (up to 60") and marking/checking lengths over 60", so that when the longer sizes come up we're just doing the same thing rather than doing something different, which is when most mistakes happen. I don't know the exact number, but I would say that in general only 1% or less of the sizes are too long for the direct read scale and need to be marked.

Here's the general process:
For lengths that will fit the scale

miter the first (right) end.
move into position on the scale and set the stop.
cut second (left) end.
check with tape measure (hold at 1", read 1" over) to ensure dimension.
adjust stop A/R to meet tolerance.
cut second piece of pair.
repeat for other side.

For lengths that are too long for the scale:

miter the first (right) end.
hold the tape at 1", measure and mark at 1" over dimension.
cut second (left) end by lining up mark with bottom knife.
check with tape measure (hold at 1", read 1" over) to ensure dimension.
repeat all above for remaining three pieces.

If we had a tape that had a leading blank space we would always be setting, marking and/or measuring at the same dimension.

Hope that helps.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

"If it was something you couldn't do yourself, I'd do it for you. Really."

Thanks, I really appreciate it, but I could make the spreadsheet. However, as you implied, even if we had an easy way to mark the outside it will not work, as we cannot see it where the cut will be. We *could* use it for checking, but it seems like it would just add one more level of complexity to set or mark one dimension and then check it with a different one.

Thanks again.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

"...Or the Lee Valley Story Tape"

Great idea. Now if I could just get someone to precisely print a scale on it…


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## Wdwerker (Apr 14, 2012)

The magnets on the miter hook hold it in place really well. The pins are very sharp and hold well. I used to chop picture frames many years ago so I understand some of your problems. Try it out and fudge the length at first until you feel you can trust it.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

We've tried the "miter hook" and found it wanting. I think the problem is that you are now depending on the tang being accurate and/or at least being the same from tape to tape, and that just isn't going to happen.

I really don't want to buy 500 custom made tapes…


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## Brickman (Nov 28, 2011)

Are your miters always 45 degrees? The reason I ask as this: it is a repeated process and there is room this could could be accomplished with a jig and a stick on scale. I know space is a premium in every shop but a custom table with the stick on tape rules could be set up. By setting a 45 degree stop and a stick on tape you could adjust for the 1/8 or 1/16 by moving the stop relative to zero. Set the moulding in the table. Adjust stop for 1/8 or 1/16. Measure and mark. Cut. Just thinking out loud.


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## dwaldmann (Oct 9, 2012)

Thought I would give an update as to what we did since there were so many well thought out suggestions.

The first thing we did is write a "report" (with Crystal Reports - an application that connects to data sources and allows you to do queries, formulas, formatting, etc) that pulls the data from our order system. It then, based on parameters that we've supplied, determines the outside dimension of the piece. This is based on several factors, including the width of the moulding, the width of the rabbet, the allowance requested, and whether the measurement is from the very inside, the rabbet, or the outside (that one's easy…).

We use these calculated dimensions for three things:
The individual dimension is shown to allow working around defects.
The number is converted to a bar code.
The four dimensions (2 of each long and short sides) is added together so we know precisely how much is total length is needed for each frame.

We then purchased a 10' (approx 100" useable) TigerStop with bar code reader. We simply scan the barcode on our Pick List and the stop moves to the proper location. Quick, easy and almost foolproof (you do have to scan the right bar code…). It does rely on the proper programming of the report, and we came across a few bugs in the first few weeks, but I think it's ironed out now.

The only real shortcoming is that if you do a one-off you would have to enter the new info into the report (this is something done at the IT level, not a user level), which is really not feasible. What we've chosen to do is manually calculate the OD; it's not that big of a deal, and for the frequency required that's the way we've decided to handle it. Once you calculate the OD you just manually type it into the TigerStop control as opposed to swiping the bar code.

The whole setup was quite expensive (over $8k plus programming time), but I'm confident it will pay for itself just in increased efficiency, never mind the increased accuracy and having to re-do jobs. Plus it's now feasible to cut frames "round and round" (long, short, long, short) so that the color/grain matches up better.


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