# Less need for hand tools with modern power tools?



## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Ok I am aware of where I am and no I do not mean to insult anyone.

So, I am getting back into woodworking and starting to accumulate the tools I need. I have plenty of general construction power and hand tools. I do some basic furniture building nothing of ultra high quality.

I have never had anything but general HD planes. I buy about $500 worth of what I consider nice hand planes. I now need $100 worth of sharpening equipment and probably $1000 in a good bench, hold downs, etc

Problem I am seeing is I am not sure I am seeing the better quality or even need for these tools? With todays modern saw blades, planers, etc are finishes getting to the point where maybe these tools are less needed? Think how much more accurate cuts at home are today.

Think about using a modern $125 saw blade vs 30 years ago when whatever was available was used and probably for life. Those cuts needed a lot of work. I can now take out my track saw with a nice blade and do nice glue ups with no work.

I know hand tools are used for different reasons but for someone else shopping for those so called needed tools I am going to think a little harder next time if they are going to improve my finished product vs giving satisfaction of being done by hand.

Just a little thought by someone lite in the pocket and think about a return policy. LOL!


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## Airframer (Jan 19, 2013)

You should look for a book titled the Hybrid Woodworker by I can't remember who. I am sure someone else will chime in with that information.

I think it all boils down to what you want to get out of woodworking. For me it is a leisure time hobby so hand tools fit the bill nicely. If it take more time to do something it simply means I get to spend more time in the shop doing it. If I was trying to make money I would need to speed things up and yes, you are correct in that modern power tools will do a fine job in a fraction of the time. Still nothing beats the feel of a piece of wood smoothed with a handplane… my 0.02


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

I certainly see the need for fewer hand tools. A jack plane and shoulder plane are great, and handy to have. A ROS and a small sanding block can accomplish the same tasks. It all depends on which way you want to go. The price of fine hand tools approaches that of power equipment. 
I guess that is the beauty of woodworking, you can get a quiet workout hand planing a table; or you can churn out an equally fine project with power tools. To each their own.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

A lot depends on the standard of work you do. I build
guitars and fine furniture. Hand tools are essential
to me in refining my joinery, shaping complex forms 
and…

Planes save time. Used properly they save a lot of sanding
time. A stroke sander is even more efficient at surfacing,
if you're looking for that.

Compared to orbital sanding alone, hand planes tuned
properly save a lot of sweat. If you have a wide belt or
a stroke sander those machines are faster, but planes
trump orbital sanders. Both are useful to getting 
quicker results in modern woodworking (which involves
the expectation of tear-out free surfaces).

As in most areas of life in woodworking it's a good plan
to not miss the forest for all the trees.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Sounds like you'd be totally happy without hand tools and using good, general construction power tools for your projects. I say good on ya.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Hybrid woodworking is by Marc Spagnuolo, for the record.

I am all about what can get the job done in my shop. I have no religious views on which tool is better for the soul. That said, I have hand planes and use them a lot. I don't think you need to buy a full set or anything, but I think a #4, a jack, a block plane, and a shoulder plane can really do wonders.

The thing that sets hand planes apart for me is the ability to remove .001 pieces of wood. Can you do it with a sander? Yes, but you are going to be rounding corners over. Hand planes in my book have no match when it comes to certain specific jobs.

If you aren't a detail oriented guy though, and you don't worry too much about your furniture being "fine woodworking", you may not need them.


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## cdaniels (Apr 16, 2014)

in my own experience I like using hand tools more than power tools. that may be because i'm in a wheelchair and powertools are a lot harder to modify and control with that. on the flip side 2/3 of your power comes from your legs and I don't have that anymore so everytime I do woodworking it's like i'm also going to the gym! I feel like there's a lot more skill involved in using mainly hand tools than power tools. plus it's the way they did it historically and they made some of the most amazing furniture the world has ever seen. What are you gonna do when the power goes out in the middle of a project that you have a deadline for? you can also save a heck of a lot on your electricity bill plus reduce the amount of fine dust particles in the air by using hand tools. just my 2 cents.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

whether its hand or power tools, its not the tools that make the project. There are plenty of woodworkers here who us power tools and plenty who us hand tool, and plenty that use both. They all turn out excellent products.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm a little confused by your original post.

If you have a jointer, you really only need a couple of planes (a Jack and a block), if not you need four (fore, jointer, smoother, block, but cheaper than a jointer)-those can be found easily used on Craigslist

You'll need a workbench whether you use hand tools or not, so I can't see that you'll save anything there. I have a couple of hold fasts and several bench dogs, but those can come in handy whether you're using hand tools or not.

So . . . I'm confused.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Hand tools are often faster than power tools, especially on smaller batch jobs. By the time it takes someone to set up the jig and the router bit for machined dovetails, another person can be finished with their first or second drawer when cutting them by hand.

Only using power tools or only using hand tools is foolish, in my opinion. Both have positives and negatives. How far you learn towards one side is a personal matter. Just like any other heated debate topic.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Here's the article that convinced me to take up some hand tools as the best way to get the job done:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2-CoarseMediumFine.pdf


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Before this isn't on the track I was going down….

30 years ago there wasn't as accurate saws, blades, etc. which in turn meant more planing and need for hand planes. I am not signaling out planes but just trying to say with technology there are a lot of tools that are not as needed because another is doing it's task so well that it kind of eliminates the need for it.

Home planers today probably rival the finish of shop dedicated set ups years ago. Block sanders? Not used as much with the better sanders out there.

My point is woodworking is expensive and with some better tools it eliminate the need for a lot of hand tools. Not saying it can't be done with hand tools or that they might even do it better. But you might not even need that hand tool due to the work of the now better power tool.

Rethinking I probably wouldn't have bought the 3 planes as no they were not needed. Also you need a lot sturdier bench to plane then to cut and assemble. Please no argument here just a little thinking out loud. Sometimes we think we need more tools then we do. I fell down that hole.

I respect everyones opinion.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

@jmartel

This is an important issue. Since I care about the craft
I want to communicate with precision here.

The better you get at making fine things the more
you will need a refined approach to hand tools.

Machines save sweat.

The issue I see is people interested in woodworking 
see the idea that cutting dovetails, for example,
is hard. It isn't but it does take some practice
and dedication to learn to make nice ones.

It shouldn't be a big deal too work at the craft,
but somehow the idea that one should instead
choose router jigs and stuff like that in the pursuit
of "easy" and "certain" results is a problem 
because the subliminal message seems to be
that cutting joints by hand is too hard.

It's not hard. It just requires tools tuned for
the job.

You can buy Japan saws that are excellent for
joinery for not much money. Chisels and stones
are all that you need otherwise.

The delight of doing joinery by hand, when you
need to, is that you'll get better at it faster than
you can imagine if you just give it a shot.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Lots of 'tools' needed to set those precision power tools to gnat's arse tolerances, don't forget to add that on top of the coat of a $130 saw blade. It's required to get 'off the tool' accuracy. And cut lists, and power panel upgrades to the shop space, and dust collection, hearing protection, etc. Etc. Etc.


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Great article and it basically says what I am getting at here. With a good planer you would grab a smoother plane eliminating the need for a more aggressive hand plane. In hindsight I would not need the other plane.

Just as we don't need dovetail jigs if we have a great way to cut them by hand we don't need certain tools if the power tools are lessoning the need for their job.

Getting into woodworking is an expensive hobby even with Craigslist. Just trying to spark a little conversation.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Post some projects.

None of us know if you're making elegant 17th century museum-quality reproductions…or hacking out rough Adirondack benches.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

Just wait till you see how much decent clamps cost.And half the time they just sit there doing nothing.It used to be the one with the most clamps wins.Now it's the one with most clamps is broke.


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## lateralus819 (Mar 24, 2013)

What if a glued piece is a little proud of a surface? Cant joint it or power plane it. A ROS will probably dish it if not careful.

I love hand tools and the skills they take to master. How long does it take to master a powered jointer or planer? Tablesaw? Etc.

I think for a lot it's about the pursuit of fine details done by YOU and a hand tool. I had a leigh dovetail jig, some would say it is the best, I however quickly sold it. After many trial and error tests, only to find out it had gaps in my actual good wood. I figure if i learn to do it by hand i can only blame myself.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Loren, I agree with you. I must admit that I'm a little confused as to what in my comment directed that. I was stating that Hand Tools can produce quicker results than machining, which is contrary to what many people believe. Another example of this is chamfers. A few swipes with a hand plane is quicker than setting up a router with a chamfer bit.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I've totally converted to the hand plane for chamfers. I'm done about the time I'd have the router bit set exactly right.


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## paxorion (Oct 19, 2012)

I'm certainly more of a power tool user than a hand tool user, but I will say that planes, chisels, and saws have gotten me out of binds where a power tool would have been a pain to try to correct. In the context of hybrid work, I find that hand tools provide the finesse needed for precision correction of that tiny amount to get your work to fit right. Hand planes were also incredibly useful when I shaped the profile for a pizza peel.

I also believe a bench is incredibly useful even for a power tool woodworker. Routing and sanding are two examples where proper material holding on a workbench makes it worth it's weight (and volume) in gold.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I'll buy the fact a good blade will cut smooth enough for glue ups, but I've yet to see a planer consistently plane smooth enough so sanding or planing wasn't necessary for furniture quality. I guess it depends on your definition of furniture quality.


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## Woodbum (Jan 3, 2010)

Use whatever tool that you need to complete the job in the manner in which you are most comfortable, both personally and financially. I personally lean more to power tools, because that is what I am better with and have not taken the time or the effort to concentrate on learning hand tools well enough to be proficient with them. I use my hand tools in a limited way when it is more expedient, and I can perform the task without screwing up the project. Kind of like golf. You gotta play to get good, but you hate to play because you aren't any good. That's why I don't go near a golf course any more except to run on one. Even Graham Blackburn, the English trained master woodworker said in a seminar that I took; that in todays world, in order to make a living, he has to use power tools for the basic rough out and construction, and then finishes with his hand tools. I firmly believe that if the cabinet makers of old would have had the quality power tools that we have today, that they would have welcomed them with open arms,. After all, when you are trying to make a living, time is money. Hybrid is the best way to go IMHO. Work safely and have fun.


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## handsawgeek (Jul 31, 2014)

Hi, Woodie,
I am relatively new to hand tool woodworking, and I absolutely love it. There is nothing to match the feel of a well-tuned saw, chisel, or plane slicing through a piece of wood. It's quiet, there are no clouds of dust swirling through the air, it's definitely good exercise (My woodworking step-dad always referred to hand tools as if they were a brand: "Armstrong" tools) . And there is always the satisfaction of finishing a piece, stepping back, and realizing "Hey, I did that!". There is also a tangible satisfaction of working in a space lined with shelves and racks full of antique and vintage tools. Perhaps this appeals to me because of my deep appreciation for antiques. That's not to say there is not a place for power tools. I own a good selection of those, but I find that they are getting used less and less as my hand tool skills increase. I am in the process of selling my table saw, having weened myself away from it in favor of hand saws, and the occasional use of a bandsaw. To be quite honest, the table saw terrifies me. Even though I am proficient at using it, and have produced some pretty nice projects with it, I just don't like the idea of having my hands near a blade that can do so much damage to fingers in the wink of an eye, no matter how many safety guards, push sticks, and feather boards are present. I suppose this is the musician aspect of my nature that allows me to imagine giving that up because of a momentary lapse of concentration. I've read that most table saw accidents happen to long-time experienced woodworkers who may let their respect for the machinery down a bit just because of familiarity.
Anyway, I'm rambling. My advice to you is to enjoy using whatever tools and techniques give you the most enjoyment of our great hobby! Cheers.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

I use power tools because of their precision and repeatability. My priority is getting as much done in as little time as possible. Yes, I enjoy woodworking but time is precious to me. I have a few chisels and a couple of hand planes, and they do see some use. But, my personality is more practical and spending extra time using hand tools does not fit my lifestyle. Your mileage will surely vary but if you buy tools as you need them, instead of buying on impulse, you will find that your tools are far more valuable to you. Knowing you bought a dust collector instead of that drum sander because you really needed to make dust a priority and you could make do without the drum sander is an example.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I like this formula for someone who is just getting into woodworking, especially if they are young.

First, you buy a general set of hand tools. You don't need to buy them all at once. Maybe you buy them over a course of 6 months or so. You can build almost anything with a reasonable set of hand tools. You'll learn a lot and won't break the bank account. Also, even if you end up with a power tool shop you are going to need a basic set of hand tools anyways. At least most woodworkers do.

Second, you buy a basic set of portable power tools, router, drill, jig saw, sander, circular saw, etc. Again, you don't have to buy them all at once and you won't break the bank account. If you can build almost anything with hand tools you can certainly do it maybe even better with your hand tools and your portable power tools.

Your first projects could include things for the shop such as tool boxes and storage cabinets, work benches, etc. In two years you could have a nice setup for a shop and without breaking the bank. Who knows within two years you may find out that you really don't have much interest in woodworking anyways. However, even most home owners and do-it-yourselfers could still use a small shop such as you have acquired. So, once again, you haven't broke the bank account.

Third, and if you're still interested in woodworking, you start to buy the stationary power tools. You could start with a table saw and follow this with other machines such as band saw, drill press, jointer, lathe, etc. Again, you don't have to buy them all at once and you don't have to break the bank account. You could take your time and maybe find some good deals on the used market.

Within four or five years from start to finish you will have a nice shop and you haven't broken the bank in acquiring your equipment. By then you have probably acquired a lot of knowledge and experience and have had a whole lot of fun to boot. A young couple just starting out could go this rout and sacrifice a little and make themselves a whole house full of furnishings and their tools would have essentially paid for themselves. Next thing you know they up and build their own house while they are still in their rental quarters. I'm sure that this sort of thing has happened all across America many times over the years.

When I was married way back in 1971 I bought me a set of hand tools for a thousand dollars and I still have those tools. I then started slowly collecting my portable power tools one at a time and I finally bought my first little group of stationary tools and added to that over the years. After 43 years I have never regretted doing it this way. Unfortunately I wasn't able to build all of my furniture and my house because me and my brother worked such long hard hours over the course of those years in building up our woodworking and molding business. But I did make a little time for hobby working all through those years as well.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## Domer (Mar 8, 2009)

Sam Maloof said that he used which ever tool was the best for the job at hand whether it was a power or hand tool. He used both. Pretty good woodworker.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I have a pretty decent set of hand tools, as that's my primary focus, but I do have a set of "portable power tools" as helluvawreck put it. Circular saw, routers, drills, jig saw (though that's more for my computer modding than woodworking), and I've just recently added a scroll saw to the mix. My drill press is a hand crank post drill, and I don't have a band or table saw, and no thickness planer or jointer either.

I'm sure bandsaw, tablesaw, planer and jointer would be nice, but for now I can't justify the cost or space that they incur.

After having done what I have for the past 3 years with hand tools, I can't see myself ever not using hand tools… at least not unless I came into a huge pile of cash that I could spend on my workshop with out having to justify anything to myself…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Very well said Charles.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Everyone's tool breakdown varies. some are more inclined towards power tools. Some are into the more traditional woodworking and would favor hand tools. At any rate, there is a place in every shop for both types of tools. Personally, most of my woodworking is done with power tools and hand tools are used to provide the final finish. My hand tools are not the most expensive, but they are very good tools, acquired from 60+ years of working with wood. Jobs that would have been done using a hand saw, is now done with a power saw and I would never go back.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

Here is a problem. 20 inch wide board. Need to flatten it. Power tools to the rescue or a simple jack plane? 
Another example. In the jungle, lack of power. Hand saw to the rescue.

I believe both has it's place. In some cases, hand tools can be as speedy to power tools. I am not knocking on
power tools. Matter a fact some tools like the "router" is my favourite tool but I am pretty scared about it. Even the electric drill.

Some power tools require a lot of space which some of us can't afford.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

The way I look at it those power tools are great but they aren't for super fine work. My jointer, planer and tablesaw get a lot of work thrown their way and I love having them. That being said there is something really rewarding about using hand tools. I've got a couple block planes, a No. 4 , a No. 5 and a couple shoulder planes paired with some decent chisels and hand saws. I bet right now I'm at about a 60/40 split on power tools to hand tools. Through all of this I've found that I really enjoy hand cutting dovetails.


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## JohnChung (Sep 20, 2012)

When it comes to ply , mdf and chipboard….. Power tools if possible. I don't see the need or want of hand tools using such material


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## Pono (Mar 10, 2012)

I personally hate hand tools.I have had countless guys tell me they can do better with hand planes etc and can beat my times and quality theyre delusional in my eyes . But im spoiled with my equipment and most of my work is commercial no time to waste with hand tools.I think i am also to impatient for hand tools i like tools with motors on them !


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## RichardHillius (Oct 19, 2013)

There are some hand tools that I believe make you a better woodworker all around. A good block plane and a couple chisels for instance will always be useful. I personally use a rabbeting block plane though out my project as I find it easier to get close with my joints and plane to exact fit than to spend a ton of time going though setup pieces trying to sneak up on that perfect fit. Beyond that it's more a matter of personal preference. Do you prefer to sand or use a smoothing plane? Are you happy ripping wide boards that can't fit on your jointer into smaller pieces than glueing them back together or would you rather take planes to them and flatten them by hand?

I personally don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this question. There is no doubt that for commercial shops the time saving and lack of training needed to get people using power tools compared to traditional hand tool skills makes them a great advantage. After all that's what they where invented for in the first place. For a personal woodworker the equation is much more of a personal decision.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

The title of this thread, "Less need for hand tools with modern power tools?" could just as easily have been, "Less need for power tools with vintage hand tools?". The whole recurring discussion of hand tools vs. power tools is silly in my view. Hand tools are like apple pie and power tools are like vanilla ice cream. They're both good, but they're best when together. When I'm building something, I never even think about should I use hand tools or power tools. I simply reach for the tool that will be most efficient and effective in getting the job done to the standards I want. A complete craftsman should have a good assortment of both. But if you can't afford that, learn to use the tools you have to the best of your ability. Skill in using tools is far more important than precisely which tools you have.


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

Bob that is because you and just about everyone else are reading my post wrong. I never said one was better then the other???

It seams like guys and gals are so passionate about the debate that they argue it even when that is not the discussion.

Modern power and I guess even hand tools are so much more accurate that it eliminates the need for steps that would require more hand tools. So why buy them if you don't need them at that time?

My point was I have a planer and wanted to buy some hand planes. I did not need to buy all the planes I did as the modern $400 home jointer is very accurate and lets me now only buy say a smoother plane.

When someone like myself is starting from scratch with an empty garage picking and choosing tools is not always easy. i was trying to simply point out that if you have modern power tools you might not need to go out and buy every hand tools that you would have needed say 30 years ago.

Think of all the steps that are now eliminated with modern tools hand or power. Even you hand plane is no a lot more accurate then it was due to modern mfg. I know we now use other materials that might cheapen the tool but a CNC cut part for a tool has a greater accuracy then say one molded and finished.

I bought a used Rodger? jointer plane, Stanley smoother #4 and Stanley block plane. Add the sharpening stuff and something to plane on and I am looking at an expensive investment. Try planing on a Festool MFT? Quality hand tools cost just as much if not more then power tools.

Again I don't have any hand me downs or access to anything I do not buy. My point was if you are starting out fresh like me watch out for the overlap and think before you buy.


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Woodie1,

I think you moved pretty quickly from questioning some of your initial purchases to making a lot of universal statements. You are right about a lot.

I have no idea what your reference to the Festool MFT is about, btw.

Ironically, "modern" manufacturing techniques aren't necessarily a boon for hand planes. The old Stanley's are prized much more highly for usability than the new ones.


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

This discussion has gone way off track. I appreciate all the help on here and will limit further discussions to technical questions.

I have an MFT and someone questioned why I would need a new bench. Not sure why that was taken wrong?

There is a huge difference between collect ability and usability. To properly set up an old plane you will be close to a LN plane in price very quickly. Again price it out as if you have nothing.

I explained that yes modern materials are cheaper but the accuracy in building the tool itself is night and day. Also remember a lot of "the old stuff is great" is by people who refuse to touch a modern anything and is not giving a fair assessment of the tool itself. Ever hear someone tell you how much safer their old Chevy is compared to a modern one? Chevy put that to rest by doing a You Tube crash test between the two, dispelled the rumors quickly. I like facts not talk. Being stubborn doesn't make something better.

I have old and new and buy what works not because I am stubborn to accept one line of thinking.

There has to be a way to discuss tools without the emotion involved. In the end it is just tools.

Thanks and sorry if this went a different way then intended. REREAD my initial post I never questioned one being better the the other. Lets move on.

Thanks


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Woodie,

Calm down. It feels like the emotion is mostly emanating from your end.

You were not clear that you had an MFT and thought you would need a new bench to use hand tools. I've never used an MFT, so I have no idea.

As for price of old places vs. LN-that's just not right. I have an old Stanley jointer, Fore, and smoother and paid about $165 total off of CL and eBay. They work just fine.

There are a lot of things that have gotten much better with modern manufacturing. One time when someone on LJ was comparing old iron to old cars-both were far superior-I noted that a Honda Accord coupe can do 0-60 faster than a 1970 Chevy SS with 4 times the mpg. Sometimes the modern is way better.

There are a lot of ways to do woodworking.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I'm not sure what is getting you so worked up, other than you didn't instantly get a bunch of people chiming in to agree and validate your opinion.

Your original post questioned whether hand tools were as necessary as they were however many years ago. People responded with their opinions and reasons to back them up on both sides of the issue. You will never get everyone to agree, because we all do woodworking at different levels, speeds, in different environments and with different focus.

Personally, I love my hand tools and disagree with many of the points in your original post (especially the costs involved), but I can't disagree with Joseph Jossem either. Hand tools do not work for him in his commercial environment. Fellow LJ Tony_S, among others, has similarly said that he doesn't use hand tools. For other professionals, especially those building period furniture such as Patrick Edwards or Doucette & Wolfe, hand tools are a necessity. Norm Abrams used power tools almost exclusively, Tommy Mac incorporates quite a few hand tools. Does that make one group better than the other? Definitely not. Check out projects by any of them and you will see that all are amazing craftsmen.

As I read the replies to your post, that is the recurring theme-use what works for you. It is possible to be a good woodworker with a power tool focus, hand tool focus or "hybrid" approach.

Hand tools don't work for you at this point. Fine. If you are working with a lot of sheet goods, as your OP indicates, then I understand why. You may eventually transition in your interests to other areas that hand tools are a benefit or you may not. It doesn't matter as long as you are enjoying woodworking and making sawdust.

Thank you for starting the thread. Overall, it has been a respectful and pleasant debate of the benefits of hand tools vs power tools. Sorry if the thread didn't follow the path you thought it would, but that's just how conversations go. The only person getting bent out of shape about the discussion is you. If you take a deep breath and re-read the posts, you may find a lot of information to be learned, but you will never convince everyone to have the same opinion.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

Woodie, I would certainly agree that you don't need EVERY tool available to do good work. There is no question that some power tools can do the same jobs as some hand tools, and that having both would be redundant. I do disagree with you though that just because something is newer means it is better. The golden age for producing hand tools was + or - 30 years around the beginning of the 20th century. Since then hand tool quality has steadily gone down except for the modern so called boutique tool makers who charge big prices. There were also some quality heavy iron power tools made during those days that are still around and doing a great job today. I doubt many of the power tools made today will still be functional 100 years from now. The decrease in quality of tools over the past 100 years was made on an economic basis. We still know how to manufacture good stuff, but it has to be priced out of reach of most consumers. There are quality tools produced today, but you pay an arm and a leg for them. There is no question in my mind if I was given a set amount of money, say $1000, and told to buy the most and best tools I could, I would go vintage all the way. In fact many of my best tools are vintage tools that I got for free by buying tools, restoring them, selling some, and using the proceeds to pay for the ones I've kept.

BTW, you keep referring to 30 years ago like it was ancient history. I infer from this that you are younger than me, and this is your frame of reference. It is true that there have been major advances in electronics in the past 30 years, but in tools I'm not sure that's the case. I could show you many more examples where tool quality has declined in the past 30 years than improved.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

For the record (there is someone keeping a record of this discussion, right?):

-I don't know what a MFT is. Not because I'm stubborn or emotional, either.

-"To properly set up an old plane you will be close to a LN plane in price very quickly." That is a patently false statement. If you throw LN money at a type 11 jack plane (for example), you're doing something terribly wrong OR have more cash than sense.

-A very good point made WRT chipboard / plywood when it comes to power vs. hand tools. Working solid wood is best for hand tools.

My #2 son was standing by, watching me take apart an old table that was getting salvaged for material. The bottom attached with several slotted screws, some recessed. I grabbed a screwdriver from the bench and started work. He said, 'my drill will make short work of this!' He went to get it, changed bits and pulled a couple of the shorter screws. I reached the recessed heads and kept going; he said, 'gotta find my long set, hang on.' I was done before he found it.

Nothing inherently better or faster WRT to the driver vs. the drill. To the point, though, why complicate things?

There are several threads here on LJs that talk about rulers, set up tools and other calibration setups for power tools. If the work is really meant to move from power tool to assy table, that piper must be paid. It's a cost that is not being considered in the 'avoid redundancy, save money' mantra. Smoothing to fit with a $50 #4 (properly set up and all) is preferred over running the stock through a $350 lunchbox planer that still has ribs needing ROS treatment.

This is an interesting discussion. The point is 'know what you want,' and I get it. The generalizations are entertaining too, though, and that's a nice bonus.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 24, 2010)

Just to add my two cents regarding the original question regarding the need for hand tools when we have such great power tools, I would say that the determination of the need for hand tools is dependent entirely on your personal philosophy, projects, feelings, and circumstances. I build a lot of guitars, and there are a lot of operations where you need to remove a thousandth of an inch. I learned very quickly that if I try to do that with a powered tool, be it a router, miter saw, jointer, whatever, that the risk/reward is not a good ratio. I can fit things up perfectly with hand tools quicker than taking a bunch of small bits on a power tool so that I don't wreck it. I have wrecked pieces in horrendous fashion using power tools. However, I love my power tools and wouldn't be caught dead without them.

So I guess what I am getting at is that even a top of the line Tenryu, Infinity, or Forrest saw blade on a unisaw is not going to be able to do a lot of the tasks that I use a simple $20 hand saw on, much less match the precision needed for certain tasks. However, I certainly am not going to scrub stock by hand when I have a perfectly good planer in the shop. So the need for one type of tool relative to the other has to be evaluated on an individual basis, no larger statement can be made than that. So I don't doubt that for you there is less need for hand tools, that doesn't mean that the same is true for myself or anyone else.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I guess my main point was not necessarily one better than the other, but rather that sometimes cost-justification can swing things one way or the other. I can't justify the expense of a good planer, jointer, or table saw, so I make do with my range of handplanes and handsaws. Through arguably, if I sold enough of my vintage planes I could buy a decent planer, and probably a jointer, but that's not happening anytime soon LOL

And I spent the first year and a half using a workmate as my only work holding device. That included handsawing, hand planing, everything. I would hope the Festool MFT is a little better, but suffice it to say I would feel your pain if that's your only option lol

But in general, I would agree with your point at a certain price point. The level of accuracy that *can* be obtained from modern woodworking machines has decreased the level of hand tools required to get the job done, when compared to the more rough nature of the equivalent woodworking power tools of old. That said, I also feel it's directly related to the quality of the machine in question, and subsequently the price tag.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

I use mostly machines and electric tools as my ability to plane saw etc by hand is no longer existent.Alistair


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Just bolt the MFT to the wall to use your hand planes.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I build guitars too, once in awhile. I do most of it by
hand. I do have things like a router peghead 
slotting jig but the last guitar I did not use it because
the guitar was a 7 string so I just did it with a scroll
saw and files. It really didn't take that much more
time.

I'm nuts about machinery too and have over 20
machines. I'm not a hand-tool purist at all.

Recently in doing a chair mockup I found I could do
really refined adjustment of an end grain plane 
using a low angle jack plane. Since it was a steam
bent part just popping it on the saw was not
going to work. If I had a disc sander I could 
have used that but the result I got from the 
plane was better than adequate, which was 
a happy surprise and a trick I'll be using again
in the future to fit tricky compound angled 
curved and chair parts.

BTW - for casework hand tools can nearly be
replaced with machinery if you have the juice,
space and cash for a wide belt sander. If
sanding veneer you'd need one with a CNC
platen. Big bucks.

A couple of years back, I had a Festool sander
handy and the hand planes I had on hand 
were not tuned up, so I did some surfacing
with a planer and sander only. It took me a
lot more time to get it ready for finishing than
if I had just tuned up a plane. My hands 
were numb too from hanging onto that
sander.


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## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

I also would have to agree with mosquito & Smitty. The cost of tools, hand or power has greatly increased over the years. Most woodworkers i know started with NOTHING but a handful of hand tools, & worked into their power & hand tool needs. Myself, I started with a hand saw, hammer, drill and a few bits. It has taken me ten years to acquire the power and hand tools I now have. Most ALL of them were used when I purchased them, and still do the job they were designed to do. I think some folks take their tools for granted. Meaning they have the "I'll use it til it breaks, & replace it" attitude. Myself, I was taught, from a young age, to take take of your tools, regardless of their cost!! I have bought several used tools over the years, & have had to do some work to them before I could use them in my shop, but, they are in pristine condition now, & stay that way!! I also STRONGLY agree to the fact that most of us woodworkers work in different environments, different speeds, etc. I have a jointer, table saw, router, etc. in my shop, along with 4 scroll saws, & many other power & hand tools. And I use them all. Maybe not for days at a time, but, they all get used. I don't think its about how expensive, or how many tools you own, its what YOU can do with what you have!!! I don't see what you're gettin' so cranked up about Woodie. In a conversation that you started, no two people are going to have the same idea or opinion. You've been given a lot of ideas & helpful info here. Were I you, I would read it more closely, and maybe consider yourself lucky you have this forum to get it from. Enjoy your ventures, & work safe.


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## sawdust703 (Jul 6, 2014)

> I also would have to agree with mosquito & Smitty. The cost of tools, hand or power has greatly increased over the years. Most woodworkers i know started with NOTHING but a handful of hand tools, & worked into their power & hand tool needs. Myself, I started with a hand saw, hammer, drill and a few bits. It has taken me ten years to acquire the power and hand tools I now have. Most ALL of them were used when I purchased them, and still do the job they were designed to do. I think some folks take their tools for granted. Meaning they have the "I ll use it til it breaks, & replace it" attitude. Myself, I was taught, from a young age, to take take of your tools, regardless of their cost!! I have bought several used tools over the years, & have had to do some work to them before I could use them in my shop, but, they are in pristine condition now, & stay that way!! I also STRONGLY agree to the fact that most of us woodworkers work in different environments, different speeds, etc. I have a jointer, table saw, router, etc. in my shop, along with 4 scroll saws, & many other power & hand tools. And I use them all. Maybe not for days at a time, but, they all get used. I don t think its about how expensive, or how many tools you own, its what YOU can do with what you have!!! I don t see what you re gettin so cranked up about Woodie. In a conversation that you started, no two people are going to have the same idea or opinion. You ve been given a lot of ideas & helpful info here. Were I you, I would read it more closely, and maybe consider yourself lucky you have this forum to get it from. Enjoy your ventures, & work safe.
> 
> - sawdus703


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

No argument here I simply saw thread going off track and asked if we could please move on. Read into it as you please but there is zero animosity on my end.

I think if you read any of my posts you see I am always polite, thankful and humble. I feel I was the same here but some have read into my posts instead of actually understanding what I was trying to say.

Totally off track and I am a bit lost on some of the the replies. Lets move on and agree to disagree although I wasn't disagreeing with anyone.

Thanks for the info and I will keep further posts to tech questions.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

^Keeps insisting we didn't read his posts, when we're politely contributing to the topic he started. Weird.

Done with this one. Thanks, everyone else, for the discussion!


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## Pezking7p (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't have anything new to contribute to this thread, except to say I wish I had ALL the tools, power and hand, old and new. When I say "all" I mean this in a very sincere and inclusive way, from festool's entire line, to a 50's unisaw and an old PM jointer, back to old wooden hand planes and a treadle lathe.

As with 99.999% of decisions in life, it's about tradeoffs. Cost vs. time, noise vs. speed, setup time vs. throughput, initial cost vs. lifetime cost. These are not simple decisions, and the answers will be different for everyone.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

> ^Keeps insisting we didn t read his posts, when we re politely contributing to the topic he started. Weird.
> 
> Done with this one. Thanks, everyone else, for the discussion!
> 
> - Smitty_Cabinetshop


+1 Not sure what the OP means by "going off track" when every post has been relevant. I shall also gracefully bow out.


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## harveysoriginals (May 1, 2014)

I once read a quote "if the old masters of woodworking had access to power tools, they would have used them".
I truly love all of my tools, both powered and hand as I bought each and every one of them for a purpose and for fun!!!!


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## WOODIE1 (Feb 28, 2012)

I am lost how after asking politely 2x's that we simply move on that guys just have to get in that last word. I started the discussion and you would think I would be the one that decides if the answers are relevant or not. You keep saying you don't understand this or that so why post? Why do you feel the need to get in the last word on a post that you feel was answered and do not get?

I simply want to stop getting emails about replies to a thread that i feel is not productive to this board. It was starting a disagreement that had nothing in my mind to do with my original intent when I started this thread. Feel free to start a new one where I will be kept out of the discussion. I want zero argument with anyone.

I feel the only way out of this is to tell you that you are 100% correct. I have zero idea what you are right or wrong about as I never once even implied you were wrong about anything I just felt the discussion wasn't about what I intended. Once again start a new thread and feel free to post your opinion. I can't imagine having the time or even the desire to purposely log on and reply to a post that I feel is already answered???

I will ask for a 3rd time can we please move on. You are right I am wrong. Start a new thread explaining your view and I will stop getting the reply emails and guarantee I will not go out of my way to post on your thread, there is no need to.

This is woodworking not politics. No hard feelings on my end and reread the posts and you will see I have expressed that throughout my replies.

Thanks


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

Up in the right hand corner of your OP is a red, eye-shaped button that says "un-watch." Click it. No more emails.


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## RB61 (Nov 30, 2012)

The day that I could hear the dust collection system from a neighbor 5 lots down, I started to look into hand tools.

I feel that my hand tool work is a creative activity similar to reading a book, listening to music, tying flies, writing, painting, etc.

I know that I am very fortunate to be able to work this way and I am not knocking any method of woodworking, except possibly chainsaw dovetails.


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## 12strings (Nov 15, 2011)

My father-in-law has done some really high-quality work with power tools only, including building complete kitchen cabinets for two houses. He has all the power tools he needs to go from rough lumber to finished product, incluiding stock prep, joinery, sanding, and spray finishing.

So he works at a higher level than I do without ever using a…
-Hand-saw
-hammer
-screw-driver
-hand plane
-paint brush

He is extremely good and pays attention to every detail, and yet just a few months ago I fixed up an old hand-plane someone had given him years ago, and showed him (30 years my senior in age) how it worked. He just never had a need for it. So for him, He does very high quality work without the hand tools.

Me, I like hand tools better because they are quiet and use less dust, and I don't have the money or shop space for a power-tool shop.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

A tool is a tool. It doesn't matter whether it is a hand tool or a power tool. You use which ever gives you the best result. There is a place for both types in every shop. As far as power tools not being able to produce fine work, I disagree. If you are trying to duplicate an antique with much carved surfaces, hand tools would probably be easier and quicker than with a power tool. One must remember, that antique furniture that was made by hand, lacks the symmetry that power tools can produce. Working by hand requires a lot of "eyeballing". The ultimate power tool today is the CNC router.It can produce shapes to metal working tolerances. It can even duplicate a centuries old antique. But even a CNC machine needs some hands-on finishing, so I wouldn't write-off hand tools just yet.


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