# Make your own window frame



## CatiaMan

A friend of mine replaced all the windows in her house with some top end windows about 4 years ago. I believe they are made of red wood, very straight and tight grained, looked quarter sawn to me. I didn't count how many windows are in her house but I believe the total came to around $24k, and I believe each window cost over $1000.00. This got me thinking, for that kind of money, I could probably build your own with the most exotic wood I care to pick and still save a bundle. Obviously the glass (double glazed) with krypton gas and whatever coatings you want to include would be purchased from a glazing company (like Washington Glass and Glazing or Advanced Glazing, etc.) but that is a minor cost in terms of the frame. For example, I helped my neighbor 2 houses over replace a broken double glazed, argon filled window about 3 years ago, from memory it was about 4ft by 5ft and cost $78.00.

Building your own window frame would offer an opportunity to incorporate some truly distinctive details work, like beautify joinery or inlay. Or just keep the lines simple and clean and focus on the sheer beauty of some high quality wood.

I have done a little internet searching, and this sight, but so far have not found anything on the subject so I am posting this to see what you folk's think of this idea. Has anyone tackled this already?


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## hootr

Eagle America sells a router bit set they call - reversible french window sash - for about $100
i made some window sash for a historic restoration job a couple years ago and they worked great
they were big 4 lite windows about 30×36 glass size
i charged $500 a pair without glazing and they were happy 
they were to be painted 
would suggest making a prototype of poplar before diving into exotic woods

may be a market here
good luck


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## Julian

Most high end wood windows are made from rift sawn not quartersawn lumber.


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## GFYS

*Most high end wood windows are made from rift sawn not quartersawn lumber.*

...if that is true…I wonder why. Must be uniformity. The gains made would hardly offset the waste produced. Perhaps the shaping/machining process requires it? But then the word "most" suggests that some high end windows aren't. Would the species make a difference?


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## CatiaMan

Thanks for all the informative comments, this site is great! I had to look up what rift cut is (lol) and found a perfect explaination by way of a picture: http://www.hoganhardwoods.com/hogan/pages/technical/Technical_01/lumbersawing_02.htm And another site mentioned that Rift cut gives a grain that looks the same from all sides unlike quarter cut where one side is flat cut.

Don't laugh to hard but last night I got curious if Norm Abram is on Facebook, he is so I sent him a message asking him to consider doing a show on do it yourself window frames. Wouldn't that be something!!

Hootr, thanks for the suggestion of walking before running. I think this is a project that would require a detailed drawing based on some serious study (e.g. go see what the top window makers are doing). Also I think it would be important to achieve a result that is better insulated than what's available on the market (including top end) to help offset any idea that a home made window is lacking.


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## DanLyke

I too have had the window salesweasels stop by to give me quotes, and heard the "but it's got a wood-like grain texture" from the lower end products and the "well, we can stain it to look like…" from the higher end folks. So I've done a bit of looking, but its far enough down on my list that I haven't gotten too far investigating it.

Here in the U.S., I believe you start by looking for manufacturers of the "IGU" or "Insulated Glass Unit"s of the sizes you're interested in. Actually milling the frames didn't seem that bad to me, just a matter of finding a matching rail/stile bit set that I liked. The tougher part is, once again, wood management, because I'd want to do grain matching for vertical sash pieces, and probably match the sash sides to the frame sides and trim too. Lots of careful pencil markings there…

The thing I haven't found yet is a decent spring/runner mechanism. Sure, I could do waxed slides and old-style counter-weights, but there's a lot to be said for the more modern mechanics.


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## CatiaMan

Dan, checking availability of runner mechanisms is as good a starting place as any. Here's a site that looks promising:

https://www.blainewindow.com/catalog/itemlist.cfm?catid=223&compid=1&pcatid=15
Notice you can order a catalog (at bottom).

Here's some more goodies from same site: 
https://www.blainewindow.com/catalog/itemlist.cfm?catid=20&compid=1&pcatid=15.

Wow, they even have electric motor drive units: 
https://www.blainewindow.com/catalog/itemlist.cfm?catid=107&compid=1&pcatid=15


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## daltxguy

This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. I have just recently moved to the next stage of building my own house. We've moved out of the city and into our country home in a small town close to a forest property that we own where I plan to build my own. Since I don't want to use the standard (yuk) aluminum framed windows which Kiwis are in love with ( I don't know why, they're ugly as sin and let the cold through like an open window), I definitely plan to make my own.

I have looked into this topic briefly but mainly for inspiration on design ideas.

My opinion is that you have to choose your hardware first and build around that, because that will decide a lot of the parameters, look and design of your windows. More precisiely, decide on what you want your window to look like, behave like, then see what window hardware you can find, then refine.

Rift sawn or quarter sawn? I should think that either would suit. As I plan to mill my own timber as well, I doubt anything will be rift sawn ( seems to me rift 'sawing' was a term more in vogue when cabinet makers split their wood from the log) but I will quarter saw to be as close to rift sawn as possible. I'm not so sure that the terms aren't interchangeable these days.

The next thing is the choice of wood. Rift/quarter sawing is important because windows are subject to huge stresses. Imagine in a hot or cold climate, for example, there could be 20-30C difference between outside and inside ( ie: 1 side of the wood and the other) and equally disparate values of moisture on the 2 sides. Then you have sun to deal with in the summer, rain - we get 1.8m (70") per year. So you need a stable, weather resistant wood and good protection on the outside. This, I think limits the type of wood to certain species, assuming you won't be painting it.

Personally I will be using macrocarpa ( cupressus marcrocarpa, a type of cypress now grown commonly in New Zealand) or possibly red beech (nothofagus fusca - a NZ native abundant in our forest and for which I have a sustainable management permit to harvest and mill 200,000 bdft over 10 years ) and on the outside I plan to apply CD50 unless I can find a suitable natural product.

Look forward to thoughts from others.

Steve


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## Waldschrat

Hey guys this fits exactly in with this topic, We here in germany are still building our own windows, (eventhough in newer buildings this is getting less and less due to industry) and doors because of the very old houses and irregular sizes. We also have strict (but good) regulations to build the windows and doors by because of enviromenal and structural reasons… well anyway, here is a pretty good/standard insulation glas drawing that I made quick on the PC to illustrate how it should be done…



So I hope this is helpfull

If anyone is interested on how we make the frame to window opening fastening, I can also provide a drawing for that too, and its allowed to be used on the Green friendly or green passport houses. Its a pretty interesting topic…


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## CatiaMan

Hi Nicholas, Thanks very much for the cross-section drawing. I would like to take you up on your offer to provide the frame drawing also. From what you have provided so far, it appears that, should the glass ever need replacing you would pry off the molding where is says 31/17. Once the molding is removed (all around) you push out the broken glazing from the outside towards the inside. Is that correct? How many holes do you drill for air circulation? I suppose 1 is enough. Is this mainly to allow air movement as the glass (or window frame) expands/contracts? And what is 'geriffelte lei"? This appears to be a cross section of the bottom of the window, the horizontal part. Are the verticals the same cross-section? Sorry for all the questions! Thanks again for positing.

Steve, thanks for your contribution also. The best comment you made is, start with the hardware and build around that. I totally agree. I am too busy right now but on the weekend I'll post some more hardware links and try to find some pictures of some nice window examples.


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## Waldschrat

CatiaMan, not a problem for the drawing… I took the liberty to make some generalizations, every window is a bit different, in thickness and size and kind of glass, depending on the style, quality and R value that you trying to reach…. Just so you know.

I drew a standard (what is built in in most houses these days) outside window with frame. The lower part (thepart which must fight off the water and precipitation) has on the one I drew up for you, an aluminium profile to keep water out, but can be built with out, if you make sure that the upper ledge of the lower frame has a slight grade (about 10°) to keep water out, and running down. all corners on the outside MUST be rounded slightly with about a 3 mm radius. This insures that what ever you are using for surfacing (paint, lack/varnish, lasuer, whatever) maintains a constant thickness to protect the wood, (on a sharp corner or too small of a radius, cant manage the corner, and thins in this spot making it vulnrable (spelling?) and of outside you do not want that). Also keep in mind that UV rays are damaging over time as well so that over time too.

Here is the lower part










here is the upper part:










You will notice I did not put many measurements in (except for the general frame sizes), thats because it really all depends on the kind of hardware you are using.

The rubber gasket/weather seal is also a generalization, because even here there are a thousand different kinds depending on what you are doing and quality, the one i used in the drawing is very common.

But overall I can say definetly this is a good general example of how windows are done here, this of course is a simpler version, there are more variants, all depending on how thick your walls are and how much noise you want to keep out and warmth in.

Before I forget, on the drawing, what you were asking about, is Geriffelteleiste, and I mean by that the wood strip that is holding the windowpane in, is not solid, but riffled (like a potatoe chip) so moisture can circulate within the Rabbit that window sits.

Holes for drainage, well, 3 ought to do the trick. maybe two, depends on the size of the window. remember air circulation is what will keep your window in shape for perhaps longer than you live, if built properly, so make sure the moisture that does happen to get in, can get out too.

The whole air circulation thing is not for movement, its to allow the dew buildup which happens mainly in winter, when cold (dryer) air meets the warm moist air from the inside (of your house) and they will meet somewhere usually in the middle of your window frame. That you can do nothing about, just provide an escape route for the moiture so your window does not form mold or rot, which is bad. We have all seen what happens to a cold beer bottle on a hot day, dew water or condensation builds up where the warm air and cold air meet.

Ok if you have any more questions feel free to ask…. I hope I have not bored anybody with such a long post. Especially if you are looking for good tips on installing the window or something.

Let me know what you think!

Nicholas


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## DanLyke

More great stuff! Thanks, Nicholas!

Is the part of the "Geriffelteleiste" that's riffled the edge by the glass, or the edge that's on the bottom of that rabbet?

Catia Man, I've been aware of the holes drilled for air circulation, and I always saw them as holes drilled so that the water could flow out of that channel that the glass was sitting in (because it's pointed up) if the seal on the outside ever failed. So there should be a bunch of those, maybe not as close as 2" separation, but 4" or so apart, I think.

Nicholas, is that about right? Except you'd think of it as about 100mm?


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## Waldschrat

Dan,

Yes, I think you got it… The glass sits on a strip of wood with cuts in it so air can circulate… I dont know if you are familiar with this example but the best I can think of in a larger scaled is sometimes at a lumber yard between the large pieces of wood stacked up, there are strips of wood (sometimes plastic or alu) but they almost usually have "grooves cut in them" so that there is even less surface area covered by the strips so the moisture can escape from the stacked wood…. the principal is same for window (eventually doors too). You can buy them in standard sizes for the industry insulation made glass pains filled with the "heavy metal gasses"

You can make these strips/muntons your self just run them through the table saw at 45 degrees in one direction and flip it over and do the same again cutting groves in the stip…. The important thing is that the glass and NOT the plastic gap filler (the metal or plastic piece between the glass panes on the edges) is sitting on the strip,

Again Dan, you know what I am talking about  yea! right on the money… these holes are for the serios condensation water to drain out… if you have standing water in the channel, you have a construction error made with the silicon

although, I think every 100 mm although meant well, over kill, maybe 150 mm or so perhaps a bit more!


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## CatiaMan

Thanks everyone, Nicholas, thanks for the two cross sections. I think we need a 3rd to understand the design better. The upper section (lower picture) has no interlock to keep the glass frame from pushing inward. The lower section (upper picture) has an interlock created by the aluminum extrusion and the wood overlap however as soon as the window is opened an inch or two the interlock is gone and the window can push inward. So this tells me the vertical cross sections includes details to prevent this from happening. Just to be clear, I presume you are providing a window designed to open (please confirm)? There appears to be no provision for a bug screen, please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Waldschrat

CatiaMan… Hello!

Last question first!  Yes, The window is designed to be opened to the inside, like most windows here…. as I had mentioned earlier this is a very standard style window (average, mostly installed) in germany, perhaps all of central Europe, if I could go so far to say so.

Not only can you open the windows all the way, one can tilt just the top so it opens and lets fresh air in, by simply turning the handle in the up position one more 1/4 turn past the when the handle is in the open position

Bug screens are not really that common here… I guess we simply do not have enough mosquitos to keep out! ;-) But one can install a screen, or design a window to fit one, although, the easiest way to put in a bug screen is simply cut some screen to fit the window and on the inside of the outer rabbit, stick on a strip of velcro type tape (this actually comes in kits at every building market) and viola! Bug Screen installed. ( see posted pic)

Normal window (next to my computer at my appartment):










one with bugscreen installed:










So you were asking about an interlock. I am not sure what you are exacly refering to (interlock). At first I thought you were talking about how you mount the window with frame in the wall opening for the window, but then you mentioned something about opening for an inch or two… I think I lost you there. But there is not interlock (not in the terms of how I define interlock) in this window… unless you are talking about the hardware… of which I am not certian what kind you are using. I have made some pictures of very common window hardware and post the here:



















here are the hard ware pics:

Hardware from side and side profile













































this specific hardwared comes in just about all possible sizes:

My patio door:










Ok I hope the questions were answered with what I posted, but the interlock part you mentioned is not so clear, could you try and please describe it again?

Ok, thanks for all of your time, and let me know what you think! feedback is always good.


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## daltxguy

I think Catiaman's question is probably answered by knowing that this is a design for a window which opens inwards…and it's the hardware, when closed and locked which keeps the window tight against the seal.

I am familiar with these windows as I lived in Austria for 4 years and I would like very much to build windows like this, so thanks for the details Nicholas.

So, even though the construction and cross sections is a huge help and goes a long way to being able to build these windows, the real issue here in New Zealand will be the hardware, because it is not very common to have good windows.

Do you have any tips on where the hardware can be purchased, perhaps online?

In which direction are the 'riffles' cut? Parallel to the glass or perperndicular to the glass? I also imagine that this little piece of wood should be made from something very water resistant.

I'm also not sure I understand what is the material holding the glass in? Is this also some sort of a pre-made seal?

And, last question, the numbers inside the wood profile parts -are these the approx measurements of this particular example ( ie 80/70 is 80mmx70mm?)

Thanks for all the information!


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## Waldschrat

daltxguy,

Ok not a problem…. last question first… Your intuition serves you well! The wood parts or any cross section parts that have the numbers in them is how one can put mesurements in simply, so 80/70 would read as you are looking at it 80 mm acoss (wide, left to right) by 70 mm in length (from up to down), of the piece. This is the cross section measurements of the piece in which you beginn with before you cut away the grooves, rabbits, profiles and so on.

The material holding the glass in is wood. In the first drawings I posted the "munton" holding the glass in is rounded and proude of the window frame, I changed it in the second something a bet "sleeker" because its flush with the window frame. This wood strip or "munton" as I call it, holds the glass in, from the inside side of the window, and the "Munton" is held in with finishing nails, which are shot in from a rabbit cut for silicone sealant, and then covered by the silicon, so you do not see the nails…. This of course is not necesary, as you can leave the nails exposed, or even use screws…. the main thing is to use something that will hold and you can remove when/in the window breaks and keeps it from ratteling (sign of poorly made window).

The "riffles" are simple enough to make they should look like the following you can make them with a table saw… no sweat.









I suppose the angle does not matter, but if you wanted to, you could cut this pattern on both sides and the strip of wood would still hold together and lots of air would be able to circulate.

hardware: I poked around in the internet for english websites, and Häfele has an english one, although they do not have as much as some of the other web sites.

here are some I found from a google search:
chine crafts web site 
this looked like good one
this was mostly already made windows, but might be a good start in the new Zealand area!

I dont know if this is helpfull but try looking for "turn tilt" window hardware, or eurowindo hardware. We order most of our stuff through a local company (which I do not think is a great help way down under)


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## jerryz

In Italy I have seen they use Douglas Fir for the wood used in window and door construction.
And the top windows manufacturers all boast of the "German" hardware both closing or latch mechanism and the hinges.


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## Waldschrat

With the Douglas Fir thats true, crazy huh. Ironically there are many large manufacturers of windows in Northern Italy, which are shiped then all over.


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## Karson

I've been privileged to be able to pick up scrape wood from a door and window manufacturer close by me. he makes windows for high end houses. When I was there the other day he was making 36 sets of french doors for a house on Cape Cod. I assume the doors were to allow opening up the entire house to the ocean breeze.

He uses sapele wood for all of his doors. he laminates the wood together and then puts a 1/4" veneer piece on the visible edge to hide all of the lamination's. On this particular house the veneer was Teak. So all visable wood would be Teak and the interior wood was all sapele. he considers that to be the most stable of woods for doors and windows.

If the designer desires different woods he'll make them what ever way that they want. He even makes them out of sapele and then paints them if that is what they want.

The teak french doors that I was mentioning had a gray coat of paint put on the outside and teak on the inside.


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## CatiaMan

Wow!! Nicholas, you have outdone yourself!! Great job and sorry for the slow response, I am very busy right now, work and hockey are eating up much of my time. I am sorry for the confusion the term interlock caused, I used it in terms of what keeps inner window frame, the frame that slides up and down, from pushing inward (or outward). But now I see that the window pivots inward and so there is no reason to capture the inner frame on the inside since that woudl prevent it from opening. It will take me a couple of nights to digest all you posted and I will write more on Friday night (PST) but I am sure you have answered all my questions by the great level of detail you have included. Thanks again I can hardly wait to set some time aside to study this!


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## Waldschrat

Not a problem, I am always happy share info with others! I am really glad that I was able to help out… I do not think so many people on the earth are so happy to get information about window frames, as you are! ;-)

I enjoy writing stuff in english to keep my skills intact, although, the technical language is a bit tough, I think I should get around to getting a book with terms for cabinet making in english just to learn the proper terms.

if there is any other questions, just le me know. No worries about slow responding, I am not always at the computer either. (gotta build a pergula and then a "cat ladder" that goes over 3 stories high, then another table, then a kitchen…. the list goes on….

well till then, have fun digesting!


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## DrCharles

Thanks for this overview. I will be making my own casement windows using your design. hanks very much for your excellent grahics and pictures.


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## Waldschrat

Karson, (and to any who are interested) lucky man gets wood for free 

Sapele is excellent wood as well as Makore and others out of the Mahogani family (similiar) woods. Teak is one of the ultimate woods for outside uses, it is definetly rot resistant and bug resistant, They are stabil and do weather so easily as other woods. until about 20 years ago…. many windows and doors were made of these woods. There is just one problem with these woods, they are tropical woods.

Eventhough there is the whole FSC (forestry stewardship council) their certified woods, which is a great thing not to mentino the teak plantations that exist today, are helping keep the forests of the world forest and not a wasteland. I think this can almost be considered a secondary problem… I believe that although these woods although good quality, can be replaced by local woods, which are just as weather resitant. Also suitable local woods are not traveling all the way across the globe, wasting resources (which costs money) and putting local saw mills out of work.

Granted, certian situations call for highly resistant wood species, example: said house on ocean front. But nothing that good old oak can not handle. did you know that there are over 60 different species and sub species of oak in North America alone? As said we build alot of windows with pine or fir, the better ones out of Larch / Tamarack wood and Oak here. The main thing is also when installing windows and doors is not only the wood type to keep the windows in good shape but the "Constructive wood protection." When I mean how the window is put together and designed as well as where it is placed, in the structure, or wall opening. This is probably more important to keeping windows in good condition more than the wood type, in many cases.

Enough with the rant, I have made a list of woods which are good for North America as well As Europe for non tropical, durable, weatherable woods: (if you are living in New Zealand, than the is not a problem)

Oak
Black locust (perhaps one of the hardest and most durable of all N. American species, even more than oak)
Larch/
Tamarack
Chestnut
Walnut (believe it or not people used to use this for fence posts I have read)
Honey locust (I have heard its hard to get sizable lumber)

These woods are all just as suitable, grow back quickly, not as destructive, (less carcinogens, with the excecption of perhaps oak) than tropical woods.

Hope you all found this interesting! But if one wants his windows to last, one must also know the species available.


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## Karson

Tanks for the history and review of woods for windows. Cost has got to be a big part in what woods that we use for windows also.

There might also be the feeling that I don't care what it costs and what it does to the environment, I have the cash so I'm going with the best. Thats probably why some drive the biggest and baddest SUV's (Because I can).


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## daltxguy

I actually had the same reaction when I heard that Sapele was being used for windows in the US.

I wish I was in the US again, because some of the best species actually are grown there. Here in New Zealand, we even import wood from the US and Europe because it some ways it is superior to what is available here ( since none of it grows here and everything else has been logged to near extinction already - for export!).

The US has some of the finest wood suitable for windows. These woods are mostly not found anywhere else.
Douglas fir
Swamp Cypress
Eastern White Cedar
Western Red Cedar
Redwood

One doesn't have to look far when it comes to Sapele and illegal logging ( just google "Entandrophragma cylindricum illegal logging"

For example:

"Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) is sometimes sold as African mahogany and ranges through Cameroon and Democratic Republic of Congo (Zaire).

These species are heavily targeted by illegal loggers in Africa and as well, many of these countries allow for overlogging that is not sustainable. IUCN lists these species as vulnerable in much of their range, due to overlogging."

I'm sorry to say that illegal logging is most often linked to organized crime and weapons trading.

Illegal logging occurs because there is a market and the biggest market is always the US.

..And Nicholas, I'm not sure what you think about New Zealand but we are not in the tropics! Yes, we are an island in the S.Pacific but our closest neighbor to the south is Antarctica. We even have penguins here.

I do get a lot of rain where I am, about 2m/year ( 6 feet) and because we have such little pollution and we still have that ozone hole above us, the sun here is the most brutal I've seen anywhere. It is important to select the right woods here. Even here we are subject to imported, illegally logged tropical woods mainly from Indonesia, PNG, Malaysia, Singapore, China and Vietnam. Of special note is a very durable species called Kwila, which has recently been *voluntarily banned for sale by retail outlets* because of its uncertain origins and its ties to illegal activities.


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## Waldschrat

sorry,

I guess I could polish up a bit on my geography…. you are correct new zealand is not tropical…. I guess what I wanted to say is that you guys are closer to the tropics, but then again that is not really the case either, now that I think about it. I have it stuck in my head sometimes that new zealand (because of its proximity to australia) is near the tropics. my mistake.

But thats some great info from someone first hand. I hope that all or more people make themselves clever like you have and try to dig a bit into the info about illeagle logging and the effects on the enviroment, not to mention, as you said the weapon and drug circuits.

Thats a ton of good info, I think almost there should be a forum column for foretry and ecological logging and resource planning.


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## daltxguy

Hi Nicholas,

No worries. Truth be told, the far northern end of New Zealand is semi-tropical and maybe it is the New Zealand marketing which may be exaggerating things a little bit. This country is a land of all extremes with volcanoes in the north and glaciers in the south and everything else in between.

But geography and my soap box about illegal logging aside, I wish to get back to the topic at hand.

Hafele do sell hardware here in New Zealand, so it is possible I may be able to track down the tiilt/turn hardware. Other manufacturers I have found are Maco from Austria which is available in Australia/New Zealand from Qualital in Australia.

Also, I am still wondering about what holds the glass in on either side. I understand about the muntin and the finishing nails and covering with silicone sealant but in the diagram, directly next to the glass there is something which is between the muntin and th glass, below the sealant.What is that material? Is that some sort of foam or rubber seal?

Thanks for taking the time to answer all the detailed questions… I hope to make a small replacement window as a trial…using Macrocarpa, a locally grown, weather resistant and stable wood (Cupressus macrocarpa)


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## Waldschrat

Daltxguy,

Exactly! Its an expanding foam seal/taping. It comes in a roll, like tape, compressed. You should store it cold, so it expands slower, because its a foam that, once you unroll it, it expands. Its pretty dense foam. This goes in the rabbit holding the glass (for best results on both sides of the glass, like in the drawing). Its there to reduce a "sound bridge" so it, simply said, acts as a sound dampener or sound proofer. So as said it comes in a roll and you peel off the backing and stick it where you need it, and it slowly starts expanding as soon as you unroll it and stick it in place, depending on how warm the ambient temperature is will determine how quickly it expands, hence the cold storag of the tape.

Pretty cool stuff huh… the same tape should go between the window frame and the wall opening towards the outside of the window, (in drawing as well) but it must be a "moisture/vapor diffusion open" tape/sealant to allow the moisture to escape, otherwise you will have a build up of condensation water,(very bad).

hope to have helped out and the question answered….

Its good to know that you can get hardware… Once you have found a dealer of hardware, it makes looking for new stuff alot easier.

Good luck with window and trial window

Any further questions you know where I am!


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## daltxguy

ok, I borrowed heavily from a site which sells the hardware and the windows and found these examples of wooden framed tilt/turn frames. This might help some others to visualize the diagrams which Niicholas was kind enough to draw for us.

More pics ( and the source ) from here


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## Waldschrat

great pics!! They look similiar to the ones I am use to!


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## fredn

Couple questions for Nicholas.

How large in diamater are you making the circulation holes? 
Also are there any circulation holes anywhere else other than on the bottom?
What type of channeling do you use between the window panes?

Thanks,

Fred


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## CaptainSkully

If we ever get our Craftsman Bungalow, this topic will definitely pay off. Thanks for such a great discussion.


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## daltxguy

*fredn* - based on the drawings, these circulation holes appear to be no more than 4mm
There are only holes along the bottom. I assume moisture condensation, if any, runs down the side and bottom of the glass and out through these holes. It only makes sense to have the holes along the bottom as air can get in, water can get out.

The window panes are sealed units, so there is no channeling between the panes but there is a channel below the double pane unit. This is covered in one of Nicholas' posts above.


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## moshel

just happened upon this thread….

Steve, I have an account with Hafele if you need anything from them - they don't sell direct. Their stuff is ok but not high end.
You might ask NK windows if they sell their hardware. don't know what it is but it is the best I have ever seen here.

I also have detailed cross sections of NK windows if you want inspiration and measurements. its PVC but i think the profile is remarkably the same.

another comment on this thread - if you have your glazing prepared for you, you can have it filled with inert gas so there is no need for dealing with internal condensation. it also improve the isolation as there is no circulation of air through the window.


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## daltxguy

Hi Moshe,

I forgot about your acct with Hafele. That may be helpful.

I have asked NK and they won't sell hardware only. I think their system is like a franchise system and so they are restricted from selling anything other than what the manufacturer of their system specifies. They also will not do wood frame windows, period.

Back to more pertinent, general info. I assume that there is a a drainage channel in wood frames, even if the double glazing is filled with inert gases because condensation can still build up between the glazing and the frame, especially with wood frame.

The wood frame may pick up warm most air on the inside of the house. The other side of the window is cold and dry ( assuming winter conditions). Somewhere in the middle there is a transition point and I would imagine that moisture will condense there.

I'm assuming that this is not as great of an issue with PVC since PVC will not absorb moisture. Having said that, there is always going to be a transition point somewhere in the center of the window.

I remember living in Canada, where our windows were single glazed vinyl frame and the transition point was obviously on the inside of the house because on very cold days we would have thick ice forming on the inside of the windows!


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## thehis

You could always just add a retractable window screen....


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## Waldschrat

just checked out this thread again… and to Fred, Daltxguy has it nailed! its the condense water that needes to be "aired out" hence the holes and 4 mm ought to do the trick. But it si a fact that condence water can collect in the " sealed channels" of alu and pvc frames too… I have seen it for my self where water can collect inside, although, I can not attest to how often it happens. (maybe only if crackes appear or something, I can not say, I work mainly with wood)


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## Closer

This is such an informative thread and a big appreciation to Nicholas for all the drawings and detailed explanations. I deal a lot with PVC frames and insulation system and I second that the holes at the bottom of the frames are for condensation.


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## Sawkerf

Interesting thread, but DIY'ing windows seems a bit unrealistic. I doubt if the windows mentioned by the OP were redwood. It's straight grained and pretty, but it's also very soft and probably wouldn't last long.

The real cost of windows (and doors) is in the hardware and glass, and the window/door manufacturers are buying those at a fraction of what a DIY'er would have to pay for the same parts. They're buying by the truckload and the DIY'er is buying just a few.

The manufacturer's unit production cost is based on large factories cranking out hundreds of units per day. A DIY'er will probably do one finished unit a week.

DIY'ing windows and doors might be a fun challenge, but don't kid yourself that you'll save money. - lol


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## DanLyke

Sawkerf, I don't think any of us hobbyists are doing things like this to save money. I do woodworking for two reasons: For aesthetics, a look I can't get by buying stuff off the shelf, but, as importantly, because again and again I find that I can build a stronger more durable product than I can afford (and my shop is full of Festool).

Or maybe it's not "than I can afford", but that I can trust a manufacturer to deliver to me.

On redwood: There's a big difference between young sapwood (and even the young less dense heartwood) and the old growth stuff. If you want a redwood window frame, find a railroad trestle or hundred year old building being torn down and salvage the wood from that. It'll be amazingly dense and last a huge long time, unlike the modern stuff. Not my wood of choice, even though I live in redwood country, but save the new redwood for paneling, watch craigslist and pay a premium for the old redwood for the stair rails and window frames and such.

Redwood forests in the United States have been managed in an extremely unsustainable way, and old growth is a completely different product.


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## miles125

Wood windows have gotten a bad rap because ones being built are mostly from some form of white pine trees grown to fast to hold up to the elements. Custom built out of mahogany or spanish cedar they'll virtually last forever. And theres no comparison in the depth and detail you can achieve in custom wood compared to the plastic and pvc folks who seem to think asthetic details don't matter with windows.


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## daltxguy

It's not always about saving money. In my case, it's about getting what I want. Where I am there are no factories cranking out 1000's of windows and what windows are being cranked out are ugly, horribly inefficient and either made of plastic or aluminum. None of those qualities suit my aesthetic or satisfy me as a woodworker, knowing that quality windows have been made for centuries out of wood.

There are lots of reasons why someone might still want to make their own. Everything could be factory built but then we wouldn't need woodworking as a hobby, would we?


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## Gregorio

Great to see all this information.

I live in North Eastern Italy and need to build european style windows for a house restoration project. Decided I would research this once I started getting bids of around 1000 euros per window (need 12 windows and 2 doors).

Waldschrat
Since you are not too far from Italy, could you direct me to sources for the hardware and gaskets?

Again great info.

Greg, Toara Italy


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## Tangle

There is a wealth of information here and it's all"Code Plus". Thanks for all the info folks, and especially Nicholas.


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## Gofor

Thank you all for some great info, both on design, the whys and wherefores, and the wood selections. Great lumberjocks all!!

Go


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## SendEveryone

Let's keep this posting alive…Great comments, although none lately, still very informative. Home Depot's 36"x46" Double Hung Vinyl Windows cost $173.00 each. The Vinyl will last for ever but they are real ugly. This isn't to nock Home Depot's products, they have a little tool that will help you make window frames and sash called a "Professional Pocket Hole Jig Kit" a little easier for the DIYer. One could use it to construct and join Frames, Facings, and Flat Planes. Kreg Jig is a little more expensive. See what you can easily do with it at:




I plan to build double hung operable windows with it, after the first prototype, I will get better at it, I hope.
(Forget the table saw, router and router table, a mortiser, tenon-jig, and all the specialized windows router bits, clamps, etc.). If you need details of windows the way they used to build them, find an old copy of Architectural Graphic Standards - I have the 1956 - fifth edition [Google it]. It has very detailed drawings, elevations and sections of Wood Casement and Double Hung Windows with dimensions, notes, etc. Although single pane, they can be modified for newer double pane glazing. Also Fine Homebuilding has a nice Shop-Built Window Frames Article - Simple joinery, #2 pine and stock sash make inexpensive custom windows:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/shop-built-window-frames.aspx?ac=fp
Go to their website and get a free 14 day trial to see/get this PDF article (if you cancel out in the 14 day period, you don't pay anything). You might also find it in your library in the issue of Fine Homebuilding 84, pp. 76-79 November 1, 1993.
Good Luck.


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## moshel

while searching for your book i found this :
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=3GIrAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA67&dq=woodworking&lr&as_brr=1&as_pt=BOOKS&pg=PA67#v=onepage&q=woodworking&f=false

its a very detailed discussion of exterior windows. there is a chapter about wood windows that has a detailed drawing


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## rance

A VERY interesting discussion. Although I've not read through all of it, I've saved it for later viewing and monitoring. Building a sliding window that will last for years using wood seems a little ambitious but on the other hand, as an alternative one could only build the ones that don't open and buy the others.

Another thought, are there some alternative materials(Trex-like, or something else) that could be used for construction that could be processed using woodworking equipment? I'm thinking something that insulates reasonably well and has better expansion/contraction properties.


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## Lopa

Oh my God these Pics are simply amazing.

I was also planning to get myself to make doors on my own. Well it just satisfies you when you say that you have made the Entrance Door of your house by yourself.

I just came across great pics. You can have a look at them here : http://www.absolutedoors.com.au/

Enjoy and do let me know that which one should I go for and if you liked the pics in there.


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## MerylL

An amazing thread. Many thanks to all.


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