# What I am doing wrong with this hand plane?



## bludhemn (Dec 8, 2013)

Hello

I'm trying to plane a rough sawn pine plank, but the hand plane I use refuses to give a proper shave. Every stroke makes a gash, instead of shave. If I pull up the blade with adjustment nut, the plane just slides over the wood. When it does make contact, it ends up eating into the wood.




























Initially I was using an old No 4 plane which I bought from an auction site. I sharpened the blade and prepared the cap iron and went about planing. When it didn't go well, I bought a new No 4 from the local hardware store. Sharpened the blade and tried that too. Same result.

I think the error is on my part, but I can't quite figure out where.

Here is the old plane and blade:




























And this is the new one:




























On both the new and old one, the blade seems a bit skewed when I look through the mouth (shown in pics). But this happens after make adjustments with the lateral lever.

Can somebody please advice ?

Thanks very much


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

You have the chipbreaker way too far away from the edge of the blade and way too big a throat opening. Try setting the chipbreaker 1/32 or so from the edge and then try to get the throat opening only slightly larger than that.
Pine is a relatively tricky wood to plane.


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## schnable (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree with jdh122. Also make sure your blade is sharp. And figure out which direction the grain is flowing - you want to go with or across the flow - but not against it. Near a knot is always tough as the grain switches direction on you.

Back your blade out and advance just a bit - start planing at the high spot - it will skate over the low spots. (From you pic it looks like your blade was advanced out too far).

Try skewing your plane (hold it on the diagonal) - if you get tear out holding it in one orientation, try skewing it the other direction.

Check out these articles from lost-art press:  reduce tear-out.

Andrew


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

Your plane irons may not actually be sharp. You may be sharpening them to the best of your knowledge, by they may just not be getting very sharp. What is your sharpening method?

Also, you may just have a crappy plane that will not keep from chattering. My first experience planing was just like this because I bought a junky plane. Take a photo of your plane from the top assembled and with the blade removed. That would likely help us come up with more advice other than move the chipbreaker forward and get it sharper.


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## jdh122 (Sep 8, 2010)

Oyster makes a good point. My first experiences with hand planing were pretty much what you are experiencing. It took some time (and the purchase of a better plane, although that did not solve everything), and sharpening practice. And I still am not an expert, although I think I've made a lot of progress.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Those are called Tracks, and any plane with the corners of the iron even with the rest of the edge will make them. Round the corner back just a bit, a little is about all you need.

Go look up Crosman, or Paul Sellers, and watch them sharpen an iron…fast.

First set the iron so that it doesn't make any shavings, then adjust the edge into the wood a 1/4-1/2 turn at a time for each pass. Continue on until you get the full width, minus the corners. Then leave it alone, and just plane wood.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

Not sure what #4 you were using, but if it's pretty old, it's probably better than the one you got at the hardware store. I'd go back to that and focus on getting it set up correctly. To reiterate what others said :
- Flatten the back of the blade.
- Flatten the sole of the plane.
- Make sure blade is correctly sharpened, I just use the scary sharp method.
- Adjust chipbreaker to be ~1/32 from the edge of the blade. If you're looking to take off a lot, you can go larger, but you'll probably want to put a very slight radius on the blade, or at minimum, break the edges back.
- Adjust the frog forward so that, when the blade is installed, the opening is just a hair larger than that 1/32. Do your best to get the blade parallel to the mouth opening and do fine adjustments with the lateral lever after everything is reinstalled.
- Start with the blade backed out, and make a few passes, lowering the blade just a hair each time. Very small adjustments. Make a big pass, because like others have said, you'll have high spots and low spots. If you're just making test passes in a low spot, when you hit a high spot, you'll dig in. If the board is really rough, you could set the blade on something a little flatter, like the edge of a 2×4 or something.

A plane that isn't properly set up is just going to tick you off. Been there, done that.


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Hard to tell, except that the chip breaker should be very close to the cutting edge, especially with hardwood. Try a 1/32" and then increase or decrease according to the way it cuts. The gouges are caused by your blade corners caused by the blade being skewed in the mouth opening. That might be caused by taking too heavy cuts (blade out to far) or the blade not being well enough secured, and a host of other things already mentioned


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Besides what others have said it looks to me like you are planing in the wrong direction against the grain. Try planing the board from the opposite direction and see if you get better results.


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## Sawdustmaker115 (Sep 8, 2013)

I would grab a straight edge and check the soul up to a light to see how flat it is, which could be a reason as for the iron not engaging on the wood properly, also could just be the board to, but at any rate i would check to see how flat it is. You may need to sharpen the iron as stated here in earlier comments, i would knock off the corners like bandit said, and i would adjust the chip breaker a bit too(i do about 1/16'' away from the edge). As for the iron being skewed, I'm assuming that's because of the frog not being straight, see if you can adjust that, and while your doing that i would close up the mouth a bit(don't go to much or the shavings will clog up the mouth) if the plane has a lateral adjuster just leave the frog alone and adjust the iron via the lateral. If not the plane then it's just the dang wood, by knots the grain starts to do annoying things like change direction, in my experience i never like to plane #2 pine, the only thought i would say is get a nice sharp iron and try to skew the plane as you run it along the board like Andrew said ''Try skewing your plane (hold it on the diagonal) - if you get tear out holding it in one orientation, try skewing it the other direction.'' 
BinghamtonEd offered some good advice ( my post didn't post till after a few of these bad internet i guess)


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Has anyone mentioned making sure you are really sharp? 

What you are describing is a classic case of not being sharp enough. That is probably the biggest hurdle to good planing-learning what sharp really is. None of the pictures above of the cutting edges show any characteristics of a being truly sharp.

When starting out with hand planes, I thought I had sharp edges until purchasing a plane from another LJ who is very skilled at sharpening. Using that plane one time re-defined my expectations and gave me something to strive for. My results since then have been much, much better.

I don't know where you are located, but will throw out an offer for you. If you would be willing to mail me one of those irons, I would flatten and sharpen it up to my standards and send it back at no charge to you. (provided you are in the US, I'm not going to mess with overseas shipping) Then you can work over the other iron on your own.


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## Picklehead (Feb 12, 2013)

Very nice offer, JayT.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

JayT rocks.


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## Sawdustmaker115 (Sep 8, 2013)

Oh yes, yes he does
Here's to you, Jay


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## kdc68 (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't know where you are located, but will throw out an offer for you. If you would be willing to mail me one of those irons, I would flatten and sharpen it up to my standards and send it back at no charge to you. (provided you are in the US, I'm not going to mess with overseas shipping) Then you can work over the other iron on your own.

Very generous offer *JayT *!....


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## JFred (Mar 3, 2014)

That's what lumberjocks is all about, woodworkers helping woodworkers.
I would take JayT up on that offer and soon.
Here's to JayT…....... : )
Good luck with the hand plane Bludhemn


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## 7Footer (Jan 24, 2013)

Another + for Jays comments.
Also it almost looks like the blade is hitting one side of the wood more than the other, and from the first pic it looks like the blade isn't parallel to the mouth, make sure the frog isn't sitting slightly crooked, that might also make it hard to use the lateral adjuster correctly.


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## anneb3 (Feb 23, 2014)

Another thing I noticed is that the chipbreaker 's angle is wrong . The forward edge should butt against the blade.
You can fix that by setting it on a flat surface with the forward edge on the edge of your sharpening stone and honeing it just a little . The the edge of the breaker will lie flush against the blade.


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## upchuck (Nov 3, 2013)

I encourage you to take JayT up on his offer. If I was in your shoes I'd do my absolute best to sharpen up both of those blades to my highest standard. Then I'd send the worst one of the two to JayT. Then when he returned the blade I'd study it and compare his effort to what I had before. Without a truly sharp blade is will be hard to figure out just what other adjustments are needed. "Sharp" has to be the beginning of the solution. Also if you included the chip breaker he could fix any issue with the fit and finish of that with just a couple of extra minutes.


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## MikeThrockmorton (Nov 4, 2013)

sidenote: though it matters less with the rough planing stage, waxing is good for the sole.


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## bludhemn (Dec 8, 2013)

Thank you all for the detailed and helpful comments.

Jay, thank you very much for the offer. I'm in New Zealand so I guess it would not work out (unfortunate!).

After reading the comments, I am beginning to think that my sharpening wasn't anywhere near sharp. I followed the method on this site, but used emery paper (300, 800, 1200) instead, on a glass plate without a honing guide.

http://woodtreks.com/how-to-hand-sharpen-using-waterstones/34/

I had setup my old plane using methods shown here:

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/109/109-benchplanes.pdf

http://woodtreks.com/how-to-tune-up-a-hand-plane/19/

The cap iron sits on the blade without the leading edge making contact on the blade iron:










Is that a problem? Does the edge have to make contact?

I've tried skewing the plane, but ended up with rough patches as shown in the red box. Tried reversing the plank to plane with the grain, but it produced all those gashes.

Skewed cut

As you can see, the surface is now a complete mess. I'll have to do with something better than emery paper for the sharpening. The only reason I didn't consider waterstones (or oilstones) were because they were pricey.

Oyster, I'll post some pics from the top of the plane. When you say "remove the blade" do you mean like retract the blade or remove fully from the body?

Once again, thanks everyone for taking time to reply.


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## ColonelTravis (Mar 19, 2013)

Cap iron is really important, I had the same problem as you on one of my planes and the cap was the culprit. Front needs to be against the blade, not the heel:









The way you have it now, there's a little crevice and the shavings get jammed in there. Also, there can be no gaps between the cap iron and blade, it has to be pressed on your blade all the way over. And yeah - sounds like you aren't consistently sharpening the same bevel angle, which compounds your problem. Don't fret, it's not like you took a hatchet to that wood. You can clean that up.


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## bludhemn (Dec 8, 2013)

Ok, thanks for that. I wasn't aware that the front edge should lay flush. I'll try and fix that.

Here are some pics of the old and new plane:





































There is a bit of camber on the old iron. Does it need more?










Larger version of the above


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## Pezking7p (Nov 17, 2013)

Your iron isn't sharp. I strongly encourage you to find someone's "nice" plane to try, or to have someone help you sharpen your iron. Using a "nice" plane changed my perspective and as a result my sharpening skills improved instantly. A honing guide will help you get started in the right direction, and $25 for a cheap guide will save you hours of frustration.

For now, i wouldn't worry overmuch about the other settings. You need to be able to make a shaving before the other settings will help (the above advice is all good, but I don't believe it's related to your current problem).


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## Buckethead (Apr 14, 2013)

JayT…. I am totally ready to send you all my irons. Can you turn them around in 24 hours?

Oh… And that yellow and pink color scheme on that Fuller? P.I.M.P.

I soooo want one of those.


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## lndfilwiz (Jan 7, 2014)

I knew something didn't look correct in the photos. This Youtube video show exactly what is wrong with the plane. One thing is the blade is in upside down!


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Yep, NZ is a bit far. Shipping back and forth would cost more than your planes and you'd get bored waiting for time in transit. 

Nothing wrong with using emery paper on glass-do an internet search for "scary sharp" to get an idea of what it can do. I used paper on a granite plate before getting stones and it worked just fine. The main argument against is that you end up spending more in the long run because of how much paper you go through. 1200 grit paper is the approximate equivalent of a 4000 grit stone.  You would want to finish with at least 1500 grit for a smoother, if not 2000 or finish by stropping. Either would work.

The issues I see from your pics are:


Chipbreaker needing to be flattened and set correctly. Solution has been covered by ColonelT above.
The back of your irons aren't perfectly flat or polished enough. There are too heavy of scratches still showing. On a smoothing plane, the back should be a near mirror finish. Again, the finer grit paper.
The edges are slightly rounded over. A truly sharp blade is the intersection of two flat planes (geometric, not tool). In this photo, you can see how the light reflection changes multiple times instead of all reflecting off one flat surface. This is related to the flat enough above.











My best guess, without seeing close-up pics of the bevel sides of the irons, is that you probably have a similar rounding over issue at the cutting edge on that side, as well. No worries, that is very common for people who have not done a lot of freehand sharpening. As Pezking mentions, an inexpensive side clamping honing guide can help immensely there.
 The slight camber on the iron isn't an issue, other than sharpening a camber is a bit more difficult than straight across, especially if you use a guide. I prefer to sharpen my smoothers straight across and then do five or six strokes on the finest stone just putting pressure on one corner, followed by the same number on the other corner. This relieves the corners and helps to prevent tracks.

It might seem daunting, but you are close. Just a bit of work on technique and finer grit paper or a strop to finish and you will get there. There are many ways to test for sharp, but for me, I just try to shave a small patch of arm hair. A truly sharp blade will leave a completely bald patch, right to the skin, on one pass with absolutely no pulling.

Good luck.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

JatT for the save


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lets focus on the vintage one. Great tips above. I haven't seen anyone comment that your frog is not square to the mouth of the plane. That's going to make it hard to get good shavings. Loosen the screws that hold the frog then carefully align it with the mouth, and tighten them back up.

2) The surface of your frog has some rust on it which may be preventing getting a good flat contact with your plane iron (blade). If just removing the rust isn't enough, you can take a file and carefully flatten the face of the frog so it meet the blade on as many contact points as possible.

3) You can tell if your iron is adjusted laterally properly either by sighting down the sole of the plane or by testing it. It takes a little while to develop an eye for the setting. Fingertips can work to test it, but better is running a thin scrap piece down each side and the middle. Since the blade has a slight camber, when it is adjusted properly for a thin shaving, you should be able to get no shaving from your test piece when you run it along either side, but a nice thin shaving when run down the middle.

Last, if it were me, I would send the new plane back to the store if you can. If you put equal amounts of effort into each plane, the vintage one will work better. The chip breaker on the new plane is so far out of meeting flat across the front that it will take a lot of work and I bet the quality of the rest of the plane is similar.

And yeah it can be a daunting learning curve getting these set up, but man is it fun when they are tuned up nicely.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Besides the excellent sharpness discussion - 
The additional pictures of the old plane confirm what 7footer mentioned; 
The front edge of the frog is not parallel to the mouth of the plane and this will cause one side of the blade to cut deeper than the other (or not at all). That frog definitely needs to be corrected. 
The new plane pictures show the frog to be pretty well aligned, but the first photos of the blade still show a problem. You need to run a straight edge across the assembled frog/mouth areas to check for flatness, and adjust as necessary. 
You already have a bunch of references listed, but this one color highlights the different areas of the plane that need attention and it shows how to tune the frog pretty well.

Best of luck.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

http://www.timetestedtools.com/a-few-tips-on-bench-plane-setup.html


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## lndfilwiz (Jan 7, 2014)

Here is another good article on Hand planes and block planes~

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/hand/block-plane-basics/


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html

Enjoy your journey!


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## Tim457 (Jan 11, 2013)

Captain, that link is one of the best summaries of hand plane fettling I've seen, thanks. The source is slightly surprising.


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## bludhemn (Dec 8, 2013)

Thank you for the helpful replies.

Jay, I had a look again at the beveled edge. It has indeed "rounded over" and isn't a flat surface. I'm guessing this is due to my mediocre sharpening method, as I can see it on both irons. That being said, like Tim suggested, I might just return the new one. I had played around with frog but could not get the blade to sit parallel to the mouth. It was always skewed, regardless of how I adjusted it. There were no such problems on the old one.

Perhaps it is best I now invest in some proper sharpening stones and a honing guide. I am considering something like 800 → 1200 → 3000 (or 6000) to grind, sharpen and hone. Does that sound like a good way to start? I've seen so many guides on what to choose; I think this may suffice.


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## waho6o9 (May 6, 2011)

Paul Sellers has an effective sharpening routine, 3 diamond stones and a stropping board.

It'll shorten the learning curve for ya bludhemn.


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## Sawdustmaker115 (Sep 8, 2013)

+1 to waho6o9(what kind of name is that  lol)
i was just going to recommend that here's a link
I've used this method on my chisels and it works great


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## MarkSr (Oct 14, 2012)

bludhemn, you are in the best of company, when it come to help from the people of LJ's. Listen to all above and take that very generous offer from Jay T and ship the iron out to him. Bludhemn, just a little suggestion, even though Jay T did not ask, the cost of shipping back to you should be on your dime. It can't be that much, but it does show some class amoung fellow members. IMHO

Once you get your iron back from Jay use that as a guide for the rest of your planes. Then I would suggest that you send Dan W. a PM (private message), show him your pictures and ask for his help on the use of planes, Dan is very good like that and his explanations on how to use the planes, and which ones to use for what purpose is very detailed.


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## TheFridge (May 1, 2014)

I have a stanley bailey #5 that I had the same problem with getting the frog to sit parallel. It took a dremel tool 
to convince it otherwise and has worked out great.


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