# Finishing Tips



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *

I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.

Watching his video he said it was a water based PVA enhanced product and doing some searching here and there I found that diluted PVA white glue has been used for years to control blotching. I just couldn't leave it alone so I started experimenting and I have come up with an alternative using Gorilla White Wood glue which I think is a polyvinyl alcohol glue and not very expensive ($5.97 for 18 oz shipped free to house from Home Depot).

I took 5 oz of the Gorilla White Wood Glue and mixed it with 36 oz of water and then added 2 oz of General Finishes natural water based stain. I then mainly followed the application directions for the Charles Neil blotch control only with my mix and the results were very close to the same.

After sanding with 220 use two coats pre stain conditioner as follows: Apply wet coat of pre stain conditioner (allowing short time for softwood to absorb mix) then wipe excess lightly with a dampened rag of pre stain conditioner with grain (allow coat to dry fully 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity) and sand lightly with ROS machine 220 then by hand with 220 following grain between and after 2nd coat. Hand sand with 320 along grain as a final buff before applying stain. Brush on waterborne dye stain with foam brush letting set for short time so that it bites into pre stain conditioner wiping excess off lightly with clean rag along grain without putting too much pressure on surface of wood so as not to break through the pre stain conditioner.

After dye stain has dried (minimum 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity), apply spray with ½ lb cut to ¾ lb cut dewaxed shellac, two coats sanding (lightly with 220 ROS and hand 320 along grain) between coats not breaking through shellac into color.

Apply by spray thinned finish coat over everything and let dry then hand sand lightly with 320 or 400 and apply multiple full finish coats drying and sanding between coats.

Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner (Homemade)
©2010-2015 Paul Jones - All Rights Reserved


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


How did the look, consistency and viscosity compare to the Charles Neil blotch control?
And can we see pics of the finished product?
very interesting, very interesting !


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Viscosity was about the same as best I could tell. Watery and milky color in container. When it dried it was as transparent as Neil's. Also the clarity of grain etc was about the same.

I also tried it on poplar and swear that it made it look like Cherry, blocking out the white and off shade green in the poplar but yet showed the grain. The only thing is his in the jar has an oily funny smell and my mix has none of that.

I'll try to get some pictures of the samples I did with both in the AM.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...












Here is the best I could do for a picture. Mine is on left and Neils on right. Minor blotching on both but way better than without. Also, both samples were better than using a cut Shellac sealer coat. I am however, on the final project, going to reduce the color so it comes out lighter than the test pieces. Used the dark color to see what the worst possible results would be as far as blotching and hiding the figure of the wood. The picture really does not do either justice.


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## superdav721 (Aug 16, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


very nice and thanks for posting your results


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Ok Im confused 
Correct me if im wrong
You said you use the wood glue, water, and the water stain mixed together
before applying the charlie neil pre-conditioner and wood glue/stain mix, you sanded the wood with 220 grit.
Apply it on the wood, then wiped excess off?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


My mix is 5 oz of the Gorilla White Wood Glue and mixed it with 36 oz of water and then added 2 oz of General Finishes natural water based stain.

I applied my mix to the wood let it dry, sanded, another coat of my mix, sanded, then dyed color. If you watched Charles Neils video it is the same process steps. I did not put his product over my mix.

Pictures above, left using my mix on cherry and right his mix used on cherry. Only the application steps were the same.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


That's interesting.

I thought your suppose to apply the pva glue or conditioner first on wood then dye/stain.
But it worked for you, another way of applying it.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Now I'm confused due to your comment. My mix is Gorilla White Wood Glue (PVA glue), water and a very small amount of natural water based stain (not dye stain) all mixed together. The natural water based stain (not dye stain) added in my mix added some sort of component to the mix that seemed to boost anti blotching.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Fine Ill ask you this.

Why did you mix the PVA glue with the stain? Is this better way than applying the pva on wood first, then stain. Or is it faster?


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## trimmer (Dec 23, 2008)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the conditioner!!!
I will have to try that formula


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Steve H said:

"Fine Ill ask you this.

Why did you mix the PVA glue with the stain? Is this better way than applying the pva on wood first, then stain. Or is it faster?"

Reply:

The stain added some chemical component to the mix, maybe their "Proprietary Acrylic polymer" which reduced more of the blotching ever so slightly. I have no idea what the Acrylic polymer is or how it reinforced the mix, but it did or it appeared to do so.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I believe Acrylic polymer is the stain binder. From some research I've found out that painting artist use it for glaze, mix with paints, or protective coat.

Is this the General stain your using?
http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes/water-base-wood-stains


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Yes that is the General stain used. It was the only product I had on hand at the time that was neutral in color so that's what was used. I suppose there are much cheaper alternative to gain the properties of the acrylic polymers.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


After deep research I've found out that there's two types of PVA. They both are called PVA.

*Polyvinyl Alcohol*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_alcohol

*Polyvinyl Acetate*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate

I think you meant You should said that the Gorilla Glue is Polyvinyl Acetate glue, not Polyvinyl Alcohol


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


As it contains a Alcohol Ester Polymer per their MSDS sheet then I would have to say a Polyvinyl Alcohol.

I'm no chemist, but I think the general public does not distinguish between the two types where both are referred to as PVA to the woodworker.


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## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Polyvinyl Alcohol is the Thickener, modifier for Polyvinyl Acetate
I could be wrong, we need to ask a chemist.

Other than Gorilla Glue, have you tried using other brands of glues. Elmers, Titebond?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


If we go back and look at the page you refered to in Wikipedia for Polyvinyl Alcohol it discribes it as "a water-soluble *synthetic polymer *(not to be confused with polyvinyl acetate, a popular wood glue)."

Further " Polyvinyl alcohol has excellent film forming, emulsifying, and adhesive properties ", which indicates that in of itself is an adhesive which mixes well with other compounds.

However, the MSDS sheet lists *Alcohol Ester Polymer * which may in fact not just be Polyvinyl Alcohol, I don't know and again I'm not a chemist.

The long and the short of it is, try it, see if it works for you, it's an alternative.

Now to answer your question, no I have not tried other brands with exception of Franklin Hide because it does not have the white color which may or may not cloud the wood figure. Anyway, I am still playing with it and can't say if there will be any positive results.

It may seem to some it is a waste of time, but, I find it interesting.


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## Madaddam (Mar 26, 2013)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I'm testing out your recipe on a poplar sliding door at the moment. Have you had a chance to work with this mix anymore? Any additional findings? Would love to hear about your results

I've been doing research into glue sizing, sounds like a fairly tried and tested method for blotch control, it's been used for hundreds of years - perhaps the reason for Neil's successful product.

I went to Lee Valley to pick up the general finishes clear stain, they don't carry it any more, atleast not at my branch. Had to go with the Minwax version…we'll see how it turns out. Testing the stain tonight


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I have not done much with the mix since I finished the desk. I have been reading a number of articles by Kevin Southwick and others available through the blogs and online extra type of places from American Woodworker. I have posted a couple of links in finishing tip #4 blog which pertains to oak and another in general how to control blotching. There are many articles written by Kevin Southwick in American woodworking past issues one is in October/November 2010, issue #150 as to how to Make Poplar Look Pretty and he offers another way to get even colorations.

The last process I have tried was wet on wet applications of a thinned down Bartley gel varnish promptly wiped off then a coat of a Bartley gel stain over that. The thinned down gel varnish filled the pores and the gel stain over coat was somewhat lighter but blotching was reduced substantially. The process is covered in the video linked in my finishing tip #4 blog at the bottom. It's works very well without much effort.

No matter who you talk with they have a favorite way that works for them but I am stubborn enough to want to try many methods to see which one works the best for my particular application. I have yet to find the magic bullet of stain/blotch control; however, some methods are better than others. Use up a lot of scrap before it hits the wood stove testing methods. One thing I can say is I do not like shellac as a blotch control and maybe that's because the fumes make me ill.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Forgot to give you the link to the article "Make Poplar Look Pretty".

Getting old and stupid I guess?
pj


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## Madaddam (Mar 26, 2013)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, so many ways to peel an onion.

I've tried out the stain with your recipe on a test piece, and I'm liking the results. I think I'll go ahead and do the whole door.

wet on wet is tough when you are working on a large piece (the door is 40"x86" w/ 5 glass panels w/ trim surrounds, etc.) and water based dries quick. I'm in Ontario, so I have to do this one inside this time of year, and I don't want to go with a oil based, stink up the house. I like how the glue size can dry before doing the stain, it gives you some time to work.

Thanks for your help.
Mad


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## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


New to the wood world and am trying many suggestions. The worst for me so far has been the gorilla glue mixture. What a foamy, sticky mess and a waste of money ($30.00 experiment cost). Ugghhh. So far Charles Neil is winning by far.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


@Deanna

The Gorilla glue you used was the wrong one.

There is a Gorilla Wood Glue. The one you used is activated by moisture and used for a different purpose. Make sure the glue is a PVA (polyvinyl acetate) type.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I know lots of folks try and duplicate things that work or we like.for example: "how to make an In-N-Out Burger" If you have every tried it the burger turned out pretty good ,but still no cigar,the real thing is just impossible to beat. I don't know about others but as for me I think I'll stick with Charles real thing,he has already spent hours and hours perfecting his blotch control and knows about how it works and the longevity of his product. 
If we spend 80% of what it cost to buy Charles Blotch control on material to make our own blotch control and then the finish fails,flakes or loses adhesion on a project that you spent weeks or months making do we really win ?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Personally I am not convinced that Charles Neils product is any better or worse. It comes down to economics and perceived performance because others tout a product.

The PVA idea has been around for years and it works. I will stick with my mixture as I personally saw no difference.

By the way, $5.97 for 18 oz of the Gorilla Wood Glue will make a heck of alot of Blotch Control which is far from 80%. Again I say, Perceived Performance because others tout a product and are fooled by fear and alleged claims of superiority. Give us all a break.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Our product contains a PVA we have made, there is about 1 teaspoon to a quart, the rest of the components are 3 different acrylics and some Glycol eithers . 
However if it works for you go for it .. no issue here., but our product is NOT a glue size, its more of a finish component,

Glue size does work, no question, however have you ever done "crackle" painting using it . Glues dont like to be surface treatments. Flaking and so forth can occur, we found that in our testing.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Contacted Charles an he laughed and said that oily smell thing that some one talked about saying that his didn't have ..Matters a lot.

Like you say Paul there have been many ways to *TRY* and handle blotch over the years sometimes they work based on type of wood and finish used and sometimes they don't based on the same things. I've found Charles BC to be constant if you follow the instructions on any wood and with any stain or finish I've tried .
Touting complete )

Enjoy your experiments.

Merry Christmas


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## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I used the white Gorilla glue not Gorilla White Wood Glue. I didn't know there was a difference! Ugghh. Haha. Thought I was going crazy. I used a toned polycrylic over the sample boards and it removed the Transtint. Thinking I need to go stain instead. Lot of respect for all the woodworkers out there!


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## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...





> I used the white Gorilla glue not Gorilla White Wood Glue. I didn t know there was a difference! Ugghh. Haha. Thought I was going crazy. I used a toned polycrylic over the sample boards and it removed the Transtint. Darkening this Birch is killing me!! Thinking I need to go stain instead. Lot of respect for all the woodworkers out there!
> 
> - Deanna


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


@Charles
Since my original article I did some further research and found that glycol ether is used to reduce surface tension, slow the evaporation rate, and act as a coupling agent to aid compatibility of resin and
water.

The gorilla wood glue is in fact a polyvinyl alcohol glue with a glycol ether component and have been using my mix for about four years without a problem. Thanks for your input and have a Merry Christmas.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Research further .. there are about 75 different Glycol eithers ., its a term much like "spices".. again if it works for you go for it, no problem here we have sold thousands of quarts, over 4 years,all over the world with no issues, we spent a year perfecting it and testing it, I know your formula well, its not mine.

Merry Christmas

C

Ps ..I know you think you have it figured out, you dont, every finish manufacture has tried like hell to reverse engineer it, they have failed.Again if your happy , go for it .


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Charles.

You are correct as to the many Glycol Ethers, each work better with differant compouds and have a particular set of uses and application rather it be in finishes, makeup, ink, etc….. Chemistry 101

I don't wish to reverse engineer your Blotch Control when I can make my own. I just don't want to pay for something I can make myself at 25% the cost, and have it work just as well for me as yours works for you.

We all have our secrets; I try to freely share what I learn without attaching a price tag. It must be leftover from the academic and vocational teacher in me along with an inquisitive nature.

I am not trying to bash your product, however, I believe there are more cost effective alternatives.


----------



## NoThanks (Mar 19, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Good for you. No need to buy something at outrages prices if you can make it yourself.
No different than making a jig instead of buying a Woodpecker jig.
There wouldn't be any argument over this if Gods disciples hadn't got involved…


----------



## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I am thankful for the advise, the recipes, and the products that allow me to create the highest level of perfection I can. You are important and valued wood masters especially to people new to the trade such as myself. I am lost without you!!! Thank you.


----------



## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Here is a picture of a third of the wood (maple not birch) I finished thanks you your help. Turned out beautiful. I have also attached a close up picture.

Could not have been the huge success it was without your shared knowledge (P Jones, Charles Neil) which I value greatly.

Thank you.

P.S. No blotching on this project !!!!


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Excellent Deanna…..wonderful.


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## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Here's is the entire closet project.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Looks really fantastic and thank you for posting. Lots of room in that closet and lots of hours of work.


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## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


P Jones I could not have done this without you. Bless you and thank you again!


----------



## ScottKaye (Jan 19, 2013)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...





> Charles.
> 
> We all have our secrets; I try to freely share what I learn without attaching a price tag. It must be leftover from the academic and vocational teacher in me along with an inquisitive nature.
> 
> ...


If you freely share what you learn, why did you erase this Blog and all its parts? I don't get it?


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


@ScottKaye

I am currently writing a free woodworking and finishing course booklet for a local Vocational School, choosing to delete most of my blog items for personal reasons, however, would be more than happy to send anyone a copy of my *"Finishing Tips #1: Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner" * or any other blog item of mine free on a PM or email if you or they are serious. Obviously you are not interested in receiving one by the confrontational implication of your comments.

No, I am not a Charles, who now makes videos to sell, charges $21.95 a month to watch his Mastering Woodworking weekly show, sell a Pre-Color Conditioner/Blotch control for $19.75/qt plus freight, get paid by companies to promote their products, or have surrogates who attack on command like trained dogs. Good luck to him.

Take my word for this, "Charles or I, are not Norm Abram, and never will be." Further, I am not now and never will take one dime to promote retail/commercially marketed products. If his products and vidios help "*you" *, then by all means continue to use them.

I do have over 45 years in engineering, construction, woodworking, Vocational education and contribute information freely to a PBS advisory group affiliated with *This Old House *when asked, and will pass on free of charge any information which is pertinent to specifically asked questions in areas which I feel I am knowledgeable or qualified, and will ask questions in areas I do not. If you or anyone else feels threatened by that, deal with it.

Have a nice day.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


@@ScottKaye
See that you have changed your last post from above …..see below. By the way, same answer as above.

Are you implying by the the change to your above comment you wish a copy? More than happy to PM a copy to you. *PM me if you do*.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL
View this comment, read all the existing comments, or post a comment of your own at:
http://lumberjocks.com/pjones46/blog/22172#comment-2267850

---------------------------------
ScottKaye commented on a blog entry:
---------------------------------

good work Deanna.. Maybe the pictures aren't doing your project justice, but your finish just doesn't look even. there may not be any blotching, but there certainly is a substantial variation in coloring. Im guessing you used the pPones formula. Now maybe you would have the same results had you used Charles Niels blotch control, but I really doubt it.

and as for Pjones.

Charles.

We all have our secrets; I try to freely share what I learn without attaching a price tag. It must be leftover from the academic and vocational teacher in me along with an inquisitive nature.

I am not trying to bash your product, however, I believe there are more cost effective alternatives.

- pjones46

If you freely share what you learn, why did you erase this Blog and all its parts? I don't get it?


----------



## Deanna (Dec 15, 2014)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


I'm totally lost on all the comments going back and forth but I did shadowing in the corners for a more antique effect. Its the faux finisher in me I suppose. The pics make the color look different but it is not in person. It looks the same everywhere. I do not know of the Pones formula but you have my interest!


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


@ Deanna
I will PM you.

PJ


----------



## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


This is the exact look I am getting using PVA based blotch control.
The blotching is gone but instead the finish looks dirty and messy. With anything larger than a few square feet you simply have no time to wipe off the stain. It dissolves the blotch control , mixes with it and creates one ugly looking sticky nonuniform substance. 
I tried using sprayguns for dye, It works OK if you do not wipe it off ( in that case blotching is not a problem even without blotch control). But the look is somehow plain. Once you start wiping it off you get this messy look.



> Here s is the entire closet project.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner *
> 
> I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
> 
> ...


Carloz,

When applying gel stains or oil based stains; you might be able to use just one coat of the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control; however, you should make a test on scraps to be insure the results meet with your approval.

When applying waterborne dyes and stains over the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control, apply as normally done, but avoid over wetting and excessive wiping as it may cause the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control to soften and reduce its effectiveness or cause the muddy finish you describe..

When applying Alcohol/Lacquer/Acetone/Xylol base dyes and stains, they must be sprayed.

You also might read my blog Preventing Blotching Using A Wash Coat #1 and Preventing Blotching Using A Wash Coat #2.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*

*Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*

I read somewhere that a thinned Hide glue wash was at one time used as a preconditioned to cure blotching so have taken 2oz of Titebond Liquid Hide Glue and mixed it with 12 oz of water as a second test. The reason also for choosing the liquid hide was it was more transparent vs being a cloudy white when mixed with water and this I felt would dry more transparent.

Anyway, I sanded my sample board with 220 as prep, applied a liberal coat of the hide glue wash, let it set for a few minutes so that the wood could absorb it, then wiped it off with a paper towel. I let it dry overnight, sanded with ROS 220 just to knock off the raised grain, then applied a second coat of the Hide wash as done previously. Let it dry over night and hit it again with ROS 220.

The first thing I noticed was the figure/grain was really pronounced as compared to the mix I used in Finishing Tips #1. I then applied the dye stain but the color was not the same even though I used the same dye. It was a shade or so lighter but the grain really showed through, the cause I assume is that the dye didn't penetrate the wood as much as with mix one.

Let that dry overnight and applied two coats of clear spray lacquer. And the figure/grain really shows through beautifully also very little blotching which was the main point of this whole thing. I would have to say even less blotching than with either Charles Neil's or my original Gorilla White Wood glue mix.
I can't get over how well the grain showed and no distortion of figure.

Anyway, my conclusion is that here is another very cheap way to cure the majority of blotching when working with cherry, but I have not tried it on any other species. I have a larger test sample that I am working on now and when that is done I will try to post some pictures.

Try it for yourself but on scrap samples to see if it suits you.

You can also use it to make a *Spray-On Crackle finish *by putting down a base color first (the color thatwill show through the cracks of the finish) and let it dry completely. Now brush on a thick coat of liquid hide glue, cut 50/50 with water. Let it dry for several hours, then spray on your colored-lacquer top coat. The size of the cracks will depend on how heavily you spray the lacquer. The heavier the coat, the bigger the cracks.

Again try it for yourself but on scrap samples.

Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry
©2010-2015 Paul Jones - All Rights Reserved


----------



## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Congrats!
You have rediscovered the wisdom of the ancients.
Glue sizing has been used for centuries.


----------



## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Good info for those of us who weren't aware, I'll try this on my baby gate next week.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


hobomonk

Oh you artists. I may be old but not that old.


----------



## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Glue sizing is an excellent way to seal problem areas before finishing, including the edges of mdf when being painted or endgrain to prevent stain from becoming to dark.


----------



## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Too… 
Titebond Liquid Hide Glue is a good product, yet the unsung hero of modern woodwarriors.


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


I forgot to ask you this.
When you say water did you use hot water to disolved the glue or just cold water?
Thanks


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Just room temp filtered water. It appeared to go into solution without any problems. Also, after letting the mixture set for a few days it did not seem to seperate, but I still srir it prior to use.

Paul


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


The gorilla glue also right?


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Yes, felt that any metals and other chemicals that I could remove would be best. A MD friend suggest distilled water but just been to lazy to go get it.


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Yea

I read from painttalk 
The guy is chemistry works for some company he said for waterborne coating he always use de-ionized water.
I would need to really study this.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


I think I would be affraid to use it not that I would drink it, *see precautions*.

Also, easier to find distilled. Here is a good site for you *Ask a Scientist*


----------



## stevenhsieh (Jan 8, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Distilled water is cheaper than de-ionized

But thanks for the links. That helped a lot!


----------



## hfrankjr (Jan 19, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


How can I tell if I might have to put on a third coat? Or would that be overkill?


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


Try it on scrap samples of the wood you are using to see which suits you and if there is a differance.


----------



## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

pjones46 said:


> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> *Hide Glue Wash Mix for Cherry*
> 
> ...


This is a pretty interesting subject for us as we have been doing a lot of jobs in Alder and a recent job in Maple. We use Charles' product and with excellent success. His product has been awesome and it tends to last a long time in that I buy what amounts to being 2 gallons of product and it will get us through a couple of jobs.

That said, we are running low and so I decided to try this titebond liquid hide glue formula. I bought the liquid hide glue at woodcraft and I am very excited to use it as a conditioner. Thanks for the info.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Spraying Lazy Susan*

Removed by original poster for personal publication.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Gel Stain & Gel Varnish*

Just used the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish.

After reading a number of articles in American Woodworker, Wood, and other such woodworking magazines written by many independent professional finishers, they recommend the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish. Bartley were sold to Seagrave Coatings Corporation who now manufacture the Bartley line using the original formulas.

Seagrave has very few distributors/dealers that specifically cater to the small woodworking shop or finisher so the product is somewhat difficult to find and at a reasonable price. The labels are the same on the cans rather it be the Gel Stain or the Gel Varnish which indicates to me that it was specifically in production for the professional restorer who has used it for years.

In one of the articles on Lumber Jocks, some said that he had looked at Bartley website, however, it was Bartley Classic Reproduction who sell the Bartley Line and in no way connected to Seagrave/Bartley.

Anyway, I just got some from Woodworkers Supply and tried it. This is the best product I have ever used as compared to redily available over the counter products you can buy at the Big Box Stores or your local Hardware store. I think it is even better than the General Finishes Line as their product seems to muddy the grain, where the Bartley seems to be more transparent.

As far as the colors go, you really have to search to find all of them, as many dealers do not carry the complete line which somewhat limited anyway, however, by wet over wet staining with different colors and using a thinned down Gel Varnish as a first coat sealer, many different shades can be created.

There are two articles written by Kevin Southwick in the Feb/Mar 2013 issue #164 of American Woodworker and another in April/May 2012 issue #159 and another written by Dave Munkittrick in September 2005 issue #116 as an online web extra. There are other articles which started me on my search for Gel Varnishes and stains but to tell you the truth I have read so many I can't keep track of them.

I also have purchased other colors of the Bartley Gel Stains from Kilian Hardware which are not available from Woodworkers Supply.

Read the articles if you can get them…..excellent info.

Finishing Tips #4: Gel Stain & Gel Varnish
©2010-2015 Paul Jones - All Rights Reserved


----------



## CMobley (Feb 5, 2013)

pjones46 said:


> *Gel Stain & Gel Varnish*
> 
> Just used the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish.
> 
> ...


Nice tips!
Thank you!


----------



## chopnhack (Nov 5, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Gel Stain & Gel Varnish*
> 
> Just used the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting, good stuff


----------



## whitebeast88 (May 27, 2012)

pjones46 said:


> *Gel Stain & Gel Varnish*
> 
> Just used the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish.
> 
> ...


great info,i like the georgia cherry.very nice looking.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Gel Stain & Gel Varnish*
> 
> Just used the Bartley line of Gel Stains and Gel Varnish.
> 
> ...


I just added a link to a video in the above from American Woodworker web extras….give it a watch It offers an alternative to other blotch contols.


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Links to finishing topics of Interest*

Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….

One of the parts of woodworking that many would like to do better is finishing, and that includes me. On my quest to obtain the background I have bought books, talked with professionals in the field, and searched high and low on the internet to find the answers to my questions.

Some of the questions arose as I was completing a project but others were generated by what I had read. As I have gotten older I say to myself, "I know I have read something about this particular procedure", but I can't remember where so I have started to make written list and copies of articles so that I can refer back to them as needed.

I know I'm going to take some heat from younger members of the LJ's, however; you will start losing it if you do not use it all the time. It serves no purpose not to pass along this information if it can help others.
Anyway, here is a small list of articles covering the topic of finishing which I have found interesting and informative and you may as well.

Staining Pine

Make Poplar Look Pretty

Tips-for-finishing-walnut

Techniques-for-fantastic-oak-finishes

Fuming with Ammonia

Chemical-ebonizing

Aged-cherry-finish

20-finishing-tips

Using wood bleach

Tips-for-repairing-finishes

Repair-a-water-damaged-finish

Using drywall Compound as Wood Pore filler

Wood Finishing & Wood Staining

How to Stain Wood for Even Color

DEALING WITH THE CHERRY BLOTCHING PROBLEM

Shellac as a sealer? It's all just hype

AW Extra 12/27/12 - 12 Finishing Tips

AW Extra 3/20/14 - Wipe-On/Rub-Off Finishing

Tips for Finishing Cherry

30 Finishing Supplies

AW Extra 1/2/14 - Tips for Gluing Miters

Homeshop Finishes That Work

Bleaching Wood

Oxalic Acid in Furniture Restoration

A few of the above are listed in below comments and I am unable to change them below, so, use the links above. If any of the links do not work, please let me know and I will try to correct it.

Finishing Tips #5: Links to finishing topics of Interest
©2010-2015 Paul Jones - All Rights Reserved


----------



## BTimmons (Aug 6, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


Very handy collection. Thanks for putting all that together.


----------



## chopnhack (Nov 5, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


Good stuff, thanks for sharing!!


----------



## Michael1 (Feb 12, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


That is some helpful and useful information. Thanks for putting this together!!


----------



## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


Added two more links in the above post at the bottom…..very good reading. Enjoy.

pj


----------



## kresso (Feb 17, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


I appreciate your info on even staining. I am wondering when you mix the titebond hide glue with water, do you do so warm, or at room temperature? Also do you still like that mixture for blotch control, or have you found something you like more. Thanks!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


@Kresso

I mixed the titebond hide glue as well as all the others I have tried with room temperature water, and have now switched to room temperater distilled water per a recommendation of anther Lumberjock. Reason for this is that it removes any contamination on my part with stray chemicals and metals wich may or may not react with the wood or topcoats.

I now use the Gorilla White Wood glue mix only leaving out the General stain additive (cost for results not worth it), as I always have white glue on hand, works well, can be mixed fresh each time it is used, and is cheaper than most anything that is available commercially.


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## kresso (Feb 17, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


@pj

Thanks a ton. I will try the Gorilla White Wood glue and distilled water. I really appreciate your quick reply!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


Here are more finishing tips from American Woodworker:

AW Extra 12/27/12 - 12 Finishing Tips, January 2007, issue #126,

AW Extra 3/20/14 - Wipe-On/Rub-Off Finishing, originally appeared in American Woodworker April/May 2011, issue #153

Tips for Finishing Cherry, appeared in American Woodworker April 2002, Issue #93.

30 Finishing Supplies, appeared in American Woodworker April/May 2009, issue #141.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Links to finishing topics of Interest*
> 
> Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker….
> 
> ...


Updated 3/1/15 as links were changed when Popular Woodworking bought out American WoodWorker…. I have added all the links in the orig article and they are current.

I also added a link to an article "Tips for Gluing Miters" above as I found it interesting.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*

Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.

*Mixing instructions*

Glue size is most commonly made of a watered-down, water-based, PVA adhesive. If you do plan to make your own, try something on the order of 10 parts (or a little less) water to one part Gorilla White Wood Glue. The ratios may vary with species and porosity of the wood.

*Use:*

Distilled Water (Can be purchased in most Grocery stores)
Gorilla White Wood Glue
Glass/Plastic Jar with cover for mixing and storage
Cotton Cloths (clean and pre-washed)

Note: On one of my previous projects, I used Gorilla White Wood Glue at a ratio of approximately 1 part glue to 8 parts water and in worked well as compared to a commercially produced water based pre-stain/blotch control formulation at about 25% of the cost.

Always make test applications using pieces of scrap wood from the same project you plan to finish. You also may find the results will be different from project to project using the same species of wood.
You can also spray the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control by applying a full wet soaking coat of homemade conditioner, and then follow step 2 through step 7 below.

*How to apply the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control/Conditioner*

1. Always stir well before using. Apply a wet soaking coat of homemade conditioner to the final sanded project with a brush or cloth. You want the mix to be absorbed by the soft grains within the wood, thereby balancing absorption of the surface to subsequent coatings.

2. Allow a few minutes for the conditioner to be absorbed into the wood. Then wipe the surface of the wood with a clean cotton cloth dampened with the conditioner to insure total coverage and removal of the excess.

3. Allow the surface to dry. This will vary depending on ambient temperature and humidity. Best guess is 1-2 hours and it is ok to leave for longer.

4. At this point because the wood gain has risen due to the water in the conditioner, lightly sand the surface with 280 or finer grit sandpaper so as to remove the raised grain. Clean the surfaces with a vacuum or dry cotton cloth to remove any dust left after sanding.

5. Apply the second coat of the conditioner following the same procedures as in step 1 and step 2.

6. Allow the second coat of the conditioner to dry overnight; then very lightly sand the wood surface with 280-600 grit sandpaper. I usually use 400 grit wet-dry sandpaper as I always have it in the shop. Make sure you do not over sand the conditioner which will break the seal into the grain of the wood.

7. At this point clean the surfaces with a vacuum or dry cotton cloth. Some blow it off with air but this will scatter dust particles into the air and may contaminate your finish. If you must or prefer to use air then take the project outside vs in the same area you are using to apply finish. Some use a de-waxed tack cloth to remove any dust left over from the sanding, however, this may cause problems for some finishes and I do not recommend using them. You are now ready for your stain or dye and top finish.

See suggestions below when applying coloring products over the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control.

*Recommendations when Applying Stains and Dies*

When applying gel stains or oil based stains; you might be able to use just one coat of the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control; however, you should make a test on scraps to be insure the results meet with your approval.

When applying waterborne dyes and stains over the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control, apply as normally done, but avoid over wetting and excessive wiping as it may cause the Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control to soften and reduce its effectiveness.

When applying Alcohol/Lacquer/Acetone/Xylol base dyes and stains, they must be sprayed.

Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner (Homemade) Instructions
©2010-2015 Paul Jones - All Rights Reserved


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Very good, detailed info.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Thanks Roger.


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## CypressAndPine (Jun 14, 2013)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


I have a question for you.

Would you recommend using this before finishing with an oil? Let's say a Danish Oil. You've seen my cypress tables. Some of the cypress takes the oil at drastically different rates.

Regards,
Jacob


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Jacob,

This is primarily used with dye or stain to even out coloration absorption in woods that are prone to blotching such as cherry and pine. It is absorbed into the softer grain structure of the wood where in effect it decreases the penetration of the dye or stain to yield a more consistent color.

If you are using a colored Danish Oil it will help to even out the coloration but I suggest you do some testing on scrap and only use one coat Homemade Glue Sizing/Blotch Control/Conditioner as a first test. You will also notice that the color will be lighter than what you expect because the absorption of anything you put on top of the treated surface will not penetrate as it would on untreated wood.

If you are going to use Natural colored Danish Oil, you will not see as much of a difference.


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## jramey0406 (Sep 3, 2015)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


in your original post you also used a clear stain in the mix, but left it out on the instructions. Do you no longer use this step?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


I do not use the clear stain any longer. Use exactly what is listed above only.


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## jramey0406 (Sep 3, 2015)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


thank you for the response. May i ask why the change? Did you get equal results without it?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


After further testing I saw very little difference by adding the General Finishes natural water based stain, consequently, decided to leave it out and have done so with no adverse results.

I have tried other manufactures of pre-stain conditioner and still find that the homemade meets or exceed the results and continue to use it.


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## jramey0406 (Sep 3, 2015)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


thank you sir!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Your welcome, anytime.


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


I have performed much the same blotch control testing as pjones - using pva glue and various acrylic polymers (waterbased finishes) mixed with water. I arrived at the same basic conclusions. I happen to use Elmer's glue all, at a ratio up to 4 parts water to I part glue (depending on wood species) and only apply one coat, in the manner he describes. The distilled water is a good idea if using a light color. Plenty of success using tap water. Easy to test your water - wet a sample with water and let it dry. Reduced white glue works as well as anything out there.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Thanks OSU55,

In my area we have very high iron content in the water as well as chlorine and that's why I used distilled water to reduce any possibility of adverse results either with the wood or finish.

I will give the Elmer's glue all a try at some point, and as you said the mixture concentration depending on wood species so testing on samples is prudent in all applications to determine the appropriate mix ratio for the products and woods you are using.

Thanks again for your input.


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## curiousburke (Oct 6, 2017)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Thank you Paul! I wanted to try the CN product, but was very happy to find this alternative. I have a bunch of 6 panel pine doors to finish, but at ~1 jar per door, it was cost prohibitive. Do you think this will work well in that application?
-Mark


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Mark,

Glue size blotch control has been used for years. From my experience it works well with pine, but having said that, you should make some samples on the scrape of the wood of the project you are going to use it with to determine mix proportion and how many coats you use.

I have found that 1 part glue to 8-10 parts water works well with one or two coats to the project. It is all subjective as to success depending on your expectations of results with the staining and finishing products you use along with application techniques used.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Hi Paul,
Thanks for the valuable info.
Did you try your solution on maple ? Would the tighter grain require more or less glue concentration ?


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Carloz,

Sorry, I have never used it on Maple. Rather than adjusting the glue I would reduce or add water in the mix and try it on scrape samples. I would probable start with the 1:8 as a starting point.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Here is my very first try. I treated the maple door panels with Charles Neil's substance then amber shellac. His stuff worked but impacted the color more than I needed to match the existing furniture so I darkened it with toned polyurethane.
At the end it worked well but is crazy expensive plus the shipping is not cheap too. 
Your stuff on the scrap piece works absolutely the same when it comes to blotch control but impacts the wood color less so I do not have to darken it. 
I tried only 1/8 solution and range ot coats from 1 to 4. 1 coat is too little but after that 2,4 and 4 coats look very similar.
This will be a pretty big piece of furniture so you saved me a small fortune


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Carloz,

Thanks for the feedback. Looks very close. What finish are you planning to use? Suggest you spray it on so as not to smudge the color. Again try different methods of application on samples before you decide which is best.


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## Godsgurl377 (Oct 27, 2017)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Paul,
You knowledge and input would be most appreciated on our current project. We are preparing to finish a new rustic pine floor with Fiddes Hardwax oil and would like to use either a stain first or their stain and hardwax oil in one. I am testing scraps currently and their stain (any stain) applies very blotchy. I was anticipating this and was planning on using 1 lb cut dewaxed shellac. However, the information I have found makes me really want to try CN to get an even and deep color absorption, but with a large floor, we couldn't afford it. My search for a homemade version of a pva conditioner led me here. I am thrilled to see you still responding to comments!

What are your thoughts on using this vs the diluted shellac before finishing with the hardwax oil? I have spoken with the distributers here in the US and received the okay on the diluted shellac but would like to possibly test this pva out alongside the shellac. If you need more detailed information on anything, please ask. Any thoughts are most appreciated!


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## OSU55 (Dec 14, 2012)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Blotch control. This explains why shellac isnt great at blotch control. PVA should work, and your planned testing will answer that ?, as well as mix ratio and # of coats to get the desired look. It is possible for some concoctions and application methods to re-wet the blotch control solids and create a mess. Be sure to go through your entire finish schedule on test pieces before starting on the floor.


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Exactly as OSU55 suggests.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Here is the finished product. The middle part is treated with Charles Neils blotch control the rails and stiles with Paul's solution. The paint schedule is pretty complex but the same for both. It is water dye on maple A very difficult combination.The result is practically identical. If anything Paul's version is much easier to work with. Gorilla wood glue is pretty water resistant so you can afford to mess with it longer and even out the finish and wipe it off properly. Charles' product becomes sticky mess pretty fast and once it does the only remedy is to resand everything to bare wood. At least that was my experience. Plus from one $6 bottle you can make a lot of the conditioner.


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## Godsgurl377 (Oct 27, 2017)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that link to the blotch control article. It was very helpful! Also, thanks to Carloz for posting your results and experience. It looks like it turned out great! Now I'm off to do some testing!


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## pjones46 (Mar 1, 2011)

pjones46 said:


> *Homemade Blotch Control Instructions*
> 
> Many people have contacted me concerning the specific mixing instructions to make homemade blotch control and specifics as to its application. So here they are.
> 
> ...


Carloz,

Thanks for your input concerning your project. Looks really good.


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