# Safe practices of professionals



## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Having read most of the posts regarding tool safety, especially table saw safety, It appears that I hear do's and don'ts from the amateur woodworker, but not (to my knowledge) from professional woodworkers. I've seen professionals ignore the same safety precautions they dictate to the non-professionals. Is there something I'm missing here? I would like to hear from professionals as to their views on safety. I bring up this question of safety because safety is mandated by OSHA who answers to insurance companies. Some of their safety measures sometimes don't make a lot of sense, some do, but those that do are more a matter of common sense. I would like to hear common sense do's and don'ts that make sense. Everyone knows they should not put their hand in a spinning blade, but OSHA requires every saw to have a guard and use it. Most woodworking shops I've seen usually don't use a guard because it interferes with saw operation. You should never have your hand on top of a piece being fed into a dado blade; Why? Is the blade going to jump up through the wood and bite you.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

My philosophy is if it doesn't feel right don't do it. Of course it takes experience to know when something doesn't "feel" right.

I do things on a table saw that would probably make the safety police cringe.But I feel comfortable and do it daily. Probably(definitely would not) wouldn't recommend my safety procedures to a amateur.

I know I'm not the only one, LRM.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

Safety in a professional shop is not just a static set of best-practices but a mindset that demands continuous improvement. The fact that even the best-run workplaces still have accidents means that there's always something that needs to be improved in every workshop.

The most important thing is to fix problems as they are spotted. Pushstick out of reach during the cut? Create a place to hold them within reach.

That's easier said than done since an observant person can spot 100 problems in a day and there's not enough time to deal with everything. But it is a good idea to set aside enough time to make at least one improvement each day.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

> My philosophy is if it doesn't feel right don't do it. Of course it takes experience to know when something doesn't "feel" right.
> 
> I do things on a table saw that would probably make the safety police cringe.But I feel comfortable and do it daily. Probably(definitely would not) wouldn't recommend my safety procedures to a amateur.
> 
> ...


My point exactly.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> My philosophy is if it doesn't feel right don't do it. Of course it takes experience to know when something doesn't "feel" right.
> 
> I do things on a table saw that would probably make the safety police cringe.But I feel comfortable and do it daily. Probably(definitely would not) wouldn't recommend my safety procedures to a amateur.
> 
> ...





> My philosophy is if it doesn't feel right don't do it. Of course it takes experience to know when something doesn't "feel" right.
> 
> I do things on a table saw that would probably make the safety police cringe.But I feel comfortable and do it daily. Probably(definitely would not) wouldn't recommend my safety procedures to a amateur.
> 
> ...


Look at it this way-

I wouldn't attempt to use a knife like a professional chef. I would probably end up with finger salad.

But a chef shouldn't put his fingers near a table saw blade like I do.

Some people on here probably don't use there saw 30-50 in a week. For me that's just another day.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> My philosophy is if it doesn't feel right don't do it. Of course it takes experience to know when something doesn't "feel" right.
> 
> I do things on a table saw that would probably make the safety police cringe.But I feel comfortable and do it daily. Probably(definitely would not) wouldn't recommend my safety procedures to a amateur.
> 
> ...


I slightly resemble that remark. lol

Safety is more than just saying do this and don't do that. Different levels of experience dictate how you handle safety. The same process is different from one person to another, and there are too many variables that dictate how one manages those variables.
Of course there are standard guidelines for how something should be done, but I believe it changes somewhat as you become more experienced. At least it has for me. 
When I first started out, is completely different than now. 
Common sense is one of the most important tools that you can have.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Common sense is one of the most important tools that you can have.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


That pretty much sums up the thread.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

> You should never have your hand on top of a piece being fed into a dado blade; Why? Is the blade going to jump up through the wood and bite you.
> 
> - MrRon


This actually happened in our shop once.
The guy was running a dado in a plywood panel that had a slight bow in it.
He pressed down on top to get it to lay flat on the table.
The panel bound up and was thrown back leaving his palm flat on top of the dado blade.

This one ranks right up there with the worst injuries I've seen in the shop.
I had to clean up the inside of the saw after that one. Was not fun.

Sometimes the professionals are the worst to get to follow proper safety protocols in the shop.
"I've done it this way for 30 years and still have my fingers."

We've fired some of these guys for being unsafe in the shop.
They didn't understand that the younger guys are watching their example.
Even if their skills on a table saw has avoided an accident for decades, a less experienced woodworker following that example could have a very bad day.

My view is there is always a safe way to operate. And if it seems like a risky operation, rethink how you can do the job.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

common sense left the arena years ago, now its the PC crowd, problem is you can tout safety, scream safety, but you can never control the person or persons who believe it will never happen to them. 
no doubt in my time i've ventured beyond that very safe move, and at one time paid for it, loosing a hunk of my left thumb, taught me a huge lesson, and even now i pay a whole lot more attention when using all thing that could assist in digit removal. 
we have weekly safety meetings with crews, who must acknowledge on their time card of the meeting and its contents, and i still see STUPID doing STUPID, some loose their jobs, but my No. 1 guy, says, hes gotta givem' the raspberries, as help is almost non existant, these days
retirement cant come too fast
rj in az


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

Humans are honestly pretty terrible at assessing risk for the most part. We tend to over-extrapolate from our own experience, and to discount others' experiences to a much higher degree than we should.

I try to keep that in mind every time I use my table saw or router (the two most dangerous tools in my shop, IMO).

This morning while walking my dog I just saw a contractor making a cut on a jobsite saw with a fence that I could see from 25ft away was misaligned. Blade too high. No blade guard. Standing right in the path of any kickback. Fingers too close to the blade as he pushed the wood through without a push stick.

That guy could keep doing that for years or decades before probability and luck caught up with him. He probably thinks he's using the saw properly. We all know better, but that doesn't mean we do everything right from a safety standpoint.

JAAJune's comment about about safety being a mindset rather than a compliance exercise is well said.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

OSHA…, I heard of those guys but never saw them…

I lost fingers in 1985 on a set of dados. After that Jack makes his own decisions on what's safe and what's not. I don't like it I don't do it, even if it cost me the job..

What we do in an 8+ hour day should be perfectly safe but not always.

You don't have to work unsafe, but many pros do push the limits….

I payed my dues as a professional.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> OSHA…, I heard of those guys but never saw them…
> 
> - JackDuren


In todays world of cutbacks you likely won't, unless your employer has 500 or more employee's. They are staffed so they can only afford feet in shops where impact can be made. Most employers with just a few guys won't ever see them, unless someone files a direct complaint, and that complaint is well written enough to attract attention. Even in larger companies most visits by inspectors are initiated after a complaint has been lodged. Classic example of too few, to cover too may places.

Comments about common sense are good. The most important tool to start up every time you are in the shop lies between your ears. Trying to woodwork without engaging your brain, usually doesn't end well, and has you seeing a different sort of professional.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

It took a seious accident to understand motorized tools. Even I have had a serious accident with knives in the shop.

A lot of new cabinet guys just atarting out are aggressive and will do what's told. Some get per training and some just hp get thrown on the the saw, etc.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

> The panel bound up and was thrown back leaving his palm flat on top of the dado blade.
> 
> This one ranks right up there with the worst injuries I've seen in the shop.
> I had to clean up the inside of the saw after that one. Was not fun.
> ...


Seems like it would just take a little sawdust to clean up the mess.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> The panel bound up and was thrown back leaving his palm flat on top of the dado blade.
> 
> This one ranks right up there with the worst injuries I've seen in the shop.
> I had to clean up the inside of the saw after that one. Was not fun.
> ...


haha, naw, be lotsa noodles of skin and maybe some chunks, pending duration, some blood, which by the way begins to immediately damage any metal, other than stainless and alum. 
i bet it was ugly have seen a fair share, not something i like to dwell on.
best to all on the safety, once being stupid is once too many
rj in az


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> The panel bound up and was thrown back leaving his palm flat on top of the dado blade.
> 
> This one ranks right up there with the worst injuries I've seen in the shop.
> I had to clean up the inside of the saw after that one. Was not fun.
> ...


When I was 16, a kid going into the 7th grade disobeyed every rule about using the jointer- board too short, too narrow, too thin, did not get teacher permission. Minimum dimensions were clearly written on the jointer table with black marker. In a busy shop we did manage to hear the scream. Lost most of his fingers and part of one thumb, iirc. I got to clean up the hamburger in the chute and on the floor. I ran a board through it very carefully because now *I* was afraid of it, and then swept up the chips after they absorbed the blood. Paramedics came by later looking for bone pieces to possibly extend some fingers. There was nothing but hamburger and bits, nothing to really work with. One senior and I were the only ones allowed to use the jointer then, which meant cutting into my wood working time to help the younger guys.


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

He ended up an 85% permanent disability in that hand.

You could've made a decent burger patty with what came out of the saw.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

I could have been more clear. BOTH hands got into the cutters. His first project was a plywood sanding block, for a 1/4 sheet of sand paper. Why he thought that the jointer was going to make the surface better is entirely beyond me. He was a skinny little guy like I was at that age. Probably could have gotten a couple sliders from the output. 8^O


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The phrase, "once bitten, twice shy" describes those who have had a negative run-in with a saw or other power tool. They usually learn from that experience. Definitely, Experience is the best teacher, but only if the outcome is positive.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

When I worked at Mantel Craft a guy had a pretty good setup for flutes. A stop block at the beginning and one at the end. One time while pushing the leg he forgot to put up the second stop. He fluted his palm….

You have to keep it moving to keep from burning.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Seeing pictures of accidents is the best way to drive a safety lesson home. I have a picture of the results from wearing a fall protection harness too loose. ( It's more comfortable when it's loose). The person fell, and the sudden stop popped his personal equipment like an inflated balloon. The picture showed his equipment layed out on surgical towels during reassembly. It definitely sticks in your mind when buckling your harness. A picture can be worth a lot of words.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> I could have been more clear. BOTH hands got into the cutters.
> - Dark_Lightning


I can remember my brother telling me this exact story. He was in school in New Jersey at the time but I don't think it was at his school. I think that this story became a standard shop teacher explanation of what can happen when running a small piece into a jointer by hand.


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## Novamr99 (Oct 9, 2020)

Right on controlfreak. Much easier to think it's some sort of "Urban legend/ conspiracy theory" type thing just put out there to scare kids than think that maybe two (or more…) idiots in two (or more…) places pulled the same dumb assed stunt and got the same result.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

The reason a lot of us don't use guards, is a lot of times you simply can't, either because there isn't enough room or there isn't a way to push the wood through the blade.

You can't use a guard with a sled, tenon jig, or miter gauge. If the guard doesn't mount to a riving knife, you can't use them doing bevel cuts.

I have a dust collector hood which acts as a guard, the only time I use it is when I'm ripping and then, the cut is at least 2" wide.

Other than that, its a nuisance.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> Right on controlfreak. Much easier to think it s some sort of "Urban legend/ conspiracy theory" type thing just put out there to scare kids than think that maybe two (or more…) idiots in two (or more…) places pulled the same dumb assed stunt and got the same result.
> 
> - Novamr99


I'd really like to think that that story propagated from that instance in '68, as opposed to someone else having this happen to them. I'm getting a vibe that people don't believe it. If it was current day I could use the internet to find it.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Right on controlfreak. Much easier to think it s some sort of "Urban legend/ conspiracy theory" type thing just put out there to scare kids than think that maybe two (or more…) idiots in two (or more…) places pulled the same dumb assed stunt and got the same result.
> 
> - Novamr99


No doubt that it has happened more than once which is why the minimum size board was written in sharpie on the table. It was a vivid story when told to me and I wasn't even a woodworker. I haven't forgotten even though it was almost 50 years ago. I do however own a jointer now though.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> The reason a lot of us don t use guards, is a lot of times you simply can t, either because there isn t enough room or there isn t a way to push the wood through the blade.
> 
> You can t use a guard with a sled, tenon jig, or miter gauge. If the guard doesn t mount to a riving knife, you can t use them doing bevel cuts.
> 
> ...


When we purchased a Sawstop this helps. Buying the Altendorf really helps, but many shops are still using old equipment without guards….


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## skatefriday (May 5, 2014)

> Most woodworking shops I ve seen usually don t use a guard because it interferes with saw operation. You should never have your hand on top of a piece being fed into a dado blade; Why? Is the blade going to jump up through the wood and bite you.
> 
> - MrRon


6000+ posts and you are just now getting around to asking this?


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

Just remember that some people work so carefully and are alert 100% of the time and will never have an accident.

AND….who needs safety rules or procedures as they are only for other people.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On the "not to my knowledge" part, many of us are or were professional woodworkers. Some of us retired and are, now, hobbyists. Some, including some who posted in response to this, are still in the professional sawdust making business.

In the end, it doesn't make a bit of difference whether someone providing advice on table saw safety is a pro or amateur, the methods one should employ remain exactly the same.

Those who went to "woodworking school" before running a business are the rare, very rare, exception and not the rule.

My first woodworking job was around 70, working for Caribou Campers, in Eastern Washington. We didn't wear safety glasses. The saws didn't have guards. We even had a few beers on the job every two blue moons. That was the professional world, back then.

SIDE NOTEs:

(1) Decades later, OSHA showed up at a cedar mill I worked at. We, literally, ran the conniving idiots off. Of course, the tossed out the customary threats, but, in the end, their authority is in the District of Columbia, not here.

(2) Decades before "pro's" were using push shoes, I, working for myself, was.


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

Some professionals gain confidence as they gain some experience. Then unfortunately, the confidence can turn to complacency with little to no respect given to the situation. Any tool in the shop can injure you if not used properly, not just power tools. Too many of the "old pro's" remove guards, and take shortcuts and they may never have an accident but they are not the role model to follow.
Tools don't have brains, you have to use your own.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

> Tools don't have brains, you have to use your own.
> 
> - Ed Weber


That's a good point. Hope I can remember it


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Although I am a hobby woodworker, I was a professional electrician. The same complacency rules apply to electrical work as well. The longer someone is in the trade, the more comfortable they get around live power, just like tools with no guards. And occasionally the blue demon comes out for a visit. I know of one person earlier this year that had the 'It won't happen to me'. attitude about safety. He crawled inside a piece of high voltage equipment, made contact, and was cooked like a bbq chicken. He left a wife and two kids. And it would not have happened if he followed the safety standards. At least you can see a moving saw blade, and it makes noise as a warning. Electricity is silent and invisible.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

I'm certainly no professional woodworker but would consider myself a professional with power tools having been in industrial construction for over 40 years. For those of you who like to read, "Deep Survival" will provide some insights as to how even professionals mess up on a regular basis.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

As a person relatively new to woodworking, I learned a lot from various videos, and from reading posts on LJ discussing technique, etc. Now after several years "in my shop" I find I'm better armed with understanding what is safe and what I need to figure out how to do differently. I do continue to check out videos to help me continue to learn. Stumpy Nubs is one that has a number of good ones - from shop first aid supplies to explaining how tools work to promote safety.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

the more you do in any task, the greater the opportunity to fubar something, just life, trick is to minimize the mistake, and move on, safety is paramount to success of any endeavor, amazing how grown men and women believe ''it won't happen to me'' famous works similar to '' hold my beer'' if you get the drift.

count yer fingers after each go in the shop ,and say boy howdy, i did it right
Rj in az


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Everything looks good on paper, but things are different in the real world.
I mean, there is no way to argue with safety, but there are some things that bother me about what some say regarding safety.

Yes, there are safety guidelines, but there are also too many variables associated with the thousands of processes to say there is only one safe way something should be done. If your push stick is different than mine then it takes different knowledge to use properly.The angle you push at, where you apply the pressure at, how you hold the handle, the material you're cutting at the time… You can't just say, use a push stick. It's different for everybody. I could rap on for hundreds of comparisons like that. My table saw compared to your table saw, they're different. Fall off table or not? Solid extension or webbed? All make a difference depending on the process you're doing. There is no blanket safety rule to cover each the same. It takes different experience knowledge for all.

Way, way too many variables from individual to individual. 
Experience helps manage those variables, and that's why people with experience can handle different situations compared to someone without the experience.

I don't use the guard, and I probably do a lot of other sketchy things at times, but *there has NEVER been a time when I have thought that I am so good it will never happen to me* and I don't believe just because someone isn't doing something as written on paper that they believe it will never happen to them. 
Everybody that says that crap is full of BS if that's what they think. 
I get so tired of hearing that. 
Of course if nothing has happened to someone the only thing that can change is that something does happen. 
Geez, let's go out on a limb and say sooner or later….. 
Anybody have the numbers of how many woodworkers have retired with all 10?

The blanket statement:
"table saw safety is a pro or amateur, the methods one should employ remain exactly the same."

No way you can relate the safety an experienced woodworker practices, and expect an amateur to experience the same things.
Too many variables, period.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Seeing pictures of accidents is the best way to drive a safety lesson home. I have a picture of the results from wearing a fall protection harness too loose. ( It s more comfortable when it s loose). The person fell, and the sudden stop popped his personal equipment like an inflated balloon. The picture showed his equipment layed out on surgical towels during reassembly. It definitely sticks in your mind when buckling your harness. A picture can be worth a lot of words.
> 
> - ibewjon


At one of the larger jobs I was on the professional safety guy told us if the fall protection saves us the minimum price will probably be a broken back. Your safety gear landing is pretty hard due to the acceleration of gravity.

My first job as an apprentice was walking steel beams 40 feet in the air with bundles of conduit on my shoulder. They ask me at the interview if I was afraid of heights. No, I have been on haystacks 20 bales high ;-)) OSHA was passed 4 years later, but it was about 10 years before fall protection enforcement got serious.

The motivation for OSHA was the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in 1911 that killed 146 young immigrant women. It took over 60 years to get the job done.

Life is still cheap. The fines for the totally preventable Seattle crane collapse caused by removing the bolts before disassembly were only $107,000 for 4 facilities.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> Everything looks good on paper, but things are different in the real world.
> I mean, there is no way to argue with safety, but there are some things that bother me about what some say regarding safety.
> 
> Yes, there are safety guidelines, but there are also too many variables associated with the thousands of processes to say there is only one safe way something should be done. If your push stick is different than mine then it takes different knowledge to use properly.The angle you push at, where you apply the pressure at, how you hold the handle, the material you re cutting at the time… You can t just say, use a push stick. It s different for everybody. I could rap on for hundreds of comparisons like that. My table saw compared to your table saw, they re different. Fall off table or not? Solid extension or webbed? All make a difference depending on the process you re doing. There is no blanket safety rule to cover each the same. It takes different experience knowledge for all.
> ...


I understand all the words you have here. I will say for you, they make sense, and it is how you keep yourself whole. The only thing I see, is this entire place isn't All Pros, or ALL amateur's, but a mix of everything. Where it sux is for many noobs here that don't have shop class anymore, or never had a tutor, trainer, or concerned Boss who took the time to explain all the different "things" that could go wrong with all the different tools, and situations.

So for many of them they are learning this trade/craft/hobby on you tube, here, and places like it. Safety is more often glossed over than not here, and so many people view table saw safety as buying a Saw Stop. If that isn't F'd up, then nothing is.

I know if I ever say anything about safety I have zero expectation it will cause you to rethink yours, or any other person who makes a living at this. But if even one guy ever keeps his fingers because he thinks of something I said, I'll keep doing everything I have ever done, and or said. Hopefully it doesn't pizz anyone off, but if it does, well I will still say, what I will say.


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## BB1 (Jan 29, 2016)

Another consideration is having the right tool for the task. When starting out, typically fewer, and "lower quality" tools are the norm. Over time I have added more tools, and better tools, which allow me to work more safely. For example, bandsaw to make a cut that would be questionable for me on the tablesaw. Cabinet table saw increased safety with expanded surface area over a mobile tablesaw so larger workpieces are supported. Then add in the various sleds and jigs. So, time has brought more knowledge and making a financial investment has helped too.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> So for many of them they are learning this trade/craft/hobby on you tube, here, and places like it. Safety is more often glossed over than not here, and so many people view table saw safety as buying a Saw Stop. If that isn t F d up, then nothing is.
> 
> - therealSteveN


I like the safety in that if I F up saw stop is like my second line of defense but it does not cause me to embark in risky behavior. I have seen pictures up where that tech may have saved a finger but it still looked like it hurt. But we don't need to derail into a thread hijack about how we feel about Saw Stop.

I do have a question for the pro shop folks though. How many professional shops use Saw Stop saws and was it mandated by insurance carrier or the shop owner just thought it prudent to purchase one? I guess there are a lot of other saws or other tools that can cut flesh so maybe Saw Stop is not a thing in pro shops. Just curious.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> So for many of them they are learning this trade/craft/hobby on you tube, here, and places like it. Safety is more often glossed over than not here, and so many people view table saw safety as buying a Saw Stop. If that isn t F d up, then nothing is.
> 
> - therealSteveN
> 
> ...


We are not forced to use Sawstop. If the company is concerned about safety , it takes measures to improve it…

After someone got hurt on the Powermatic and Sawstop was purchased for my area.. later sold I an auction..


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## ManySplinters (Sep 28, 2021)

Safety practices are written in blood - that is an old reminder that stays with me.

Suspect many equipment guards were designed for the same reason…


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

We don't have a Sawstop and nobody is telling us we need one. At one point a Sawstop was a planned purchase but that was abandoned in favor of saving up for a good Euro slider which would be more useful and for doing sheet goods, is safer than a Sawstop. Manhandling 4×8 sheets to rip on a cabinet saw is riskier than running them through a slider. The slider has less risk of kickback, reduces operator fatigue and the risk of back injury if the sheets are heavy.

After the slider is in place, Sawstop will probably go back on the future purchase list for solid wood ripping operations. Either that or some sort of power feed saw if it is practical.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Insurance companies write riders all the time. If they think a practice or use of a tool is higher risk, they can write it out of the contact.

That aside, I'm going to bet less than 10% of the shops do.

Even if I had money to burn, I'm not going to step down from a nice slider, be it a Taxotool or other, to a saw stop. There are a thousand reasons not to have a Sawstop. Some are good, some are just good old fashioned cheap, and so on.



> . . . .
> 
> I do have a question for the pro shop folks though. How many professional shops use Saw Stop saws and was it mandated by insurance carrier or the shop owner just thought it prudent to purchase one? I guess there are a lot of other saws or other tools that can cut flesh so maybe Saw Stop is not a thing in pro shops. Just curious.
> 
> - controlfreak


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

Never really thought about it but it makes sense that a slider would be a safe bet. Based on the responses, I would guess if anybody used Saw Stop in a professional shop it would likely be a very small one.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Problem with sliders is they take up too much room.

I would like to address safety by going back in years to when you just started to walk. You took a step, fell, got up and took another step. This went along until you could walk without falling down. Safety is pretty much the same process except the fall down can be more disastrous. Instead of a fall, it's a bite from a saw blade. Although you can't equate one with the other, it does show that experience and perseverance is needed. I see people that lack the common tasks of tying one's own shoes and I say to myself, "I sure hope that guy isn't running a saw or even driving a car". Safety should be taught at an early age along with walking, tying shoes or brushing teeth. If these everyday rules are followed, safety in a shop should become second nature.

It is true that we are spending a lot of time discussing safety and people are getting sick of this discussion. It is never-the-less an important topic to discuss, as we all have not agreed to a right or wrong way. We must remember that every day someone new is embarking on woodworking and not have the foggiest idea about safety.

I remember many years ago, my neighbor bought a motorized snow blower. The first time out in the snow, he stuck his hand in the chute and lost 3 or 4 fingers. He was never to use that machine again. The moral of the story is; make sure you understand fully the operation of a machine before using it, either for the first time or on an ongoing basis. Understanding a machine is as important as operating a car if not more so. Maybe there should be schools to teach safety before being allowed to operate a machine.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

There were schools that taught safety in shop class. But sadly, most schools have eliminated shop class, going to vocational schools. But those are for careers in home building or whatever they teach. There is nothing left for the future homeowner with a non trade related career path to learn about tools, machines, and safety.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Never really thought about it but it makes sense that a slider would be a safe bet. Based on the responses, I would guess if anybody used Saw Stop in a professional shop it would likely be a very small one.
> 
> - controlfreak


In my area, if anyone buys a TS for a professional shop it's a SS.

Most keep their original TS and add a slider or cnc.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I'm not hashing at SS for making the saw they make. I'm stating a fact, that you can read on here, or any woodworking venue in the USA. People equate table saw safety today with owning a SS. NOT with always using guards, safe practices, common sense. Virtually all the things the every day users that have added to this thread, that they do on a regular basis to ensure their safety.

You see it on virtually every video you see of someone using a SS, Safe use isn't being talked about, or shown. Don't need that, I gots me a Saw Stop.

That is what is F'd up.

If you own a SS and always use the guards, common sense, and good safety practices, CONGRATULATIONS, but you know you are in the minority by far. I also see those comments once in a while. The "I own a SS and still routinely use my guards, and always think about the cut, before I make it." Or stuff like that. Rare to see in the wild.



> There were schools that taught safety in shop class. But sadly, most schools have eliminated shop class, going to vocational schools. But those are for careers in home building or whatever they teach. There is nothing left for the future homeowner with a non trade related career path to learn about tools, machines, and safety.
> 
> - ibewjon


This was exactly what I was saying about Us, or places like us, and You Tube being todays classroom for many noobs. However many are poor teachers when it comes to this. Hopefully we will try to lead by example.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Personal shop safety and professional shop safety are 2 entirely different dilemmas.

Professional shop safety is governed by attorneys and politicians. They make decisions about issues they have absolutely no experience with. Their decisions are motivated by narcissism, greed, and groupthink. Common sense gets no consideration.

I know a fellow who owned his own contracting business similar to mine. He had a fellow working on a manlift about 20 feet up. He told the workman several times if he could not reach something, do not stand on the guard rails, call me and we will find a way to do it. The workman could not reach something so he stood on the guard rails. He fell and injured himself. Labor and Industries did not discipline the workman. They spent 3 days in Al's office raking him back and forth over the coals. If you are signing the front sides of paychecks, liability and enforcement by those who have absolutely no idea about what they need to do or how to do their jobs has to be a primary consideration to stay in business. ;-((


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

> Personal shop safety and professional shop safety are 2 entirely different dilemmas.
> 
> Professional shop safety is governed by attorneys and politicians. They make decisions about issues they have absolutely no experience with. Their decisions are motivated by narcissism, greed, and groupthink. Common sense gets no consideration.
> 
> ...


It's a complicated world. For every conscientious person like your friend, there's a roofer who doesn't buy his crews harnesses and fall arresting gear (I know of more than one personally) because it's too expensive and the owner is an asshole who can't be arsed to do even the bare minimum a decent human being would do. He undercuts everyone on price, though, so he never seems to lack for business.


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## Woodnmetal (Jul 24, 2021)

> There were schools that taught safety in shop class. But sadly, most schools have eliminated shop class. There is nothing left for the future homeowner with a non trade related career path to learn about tools, machines, and safety.
> 
> - ibewjon


Exactly , ^^^^ but now we have forums…

Younger folks ask.. what type of equipment so I look at ? Would a 9" bandsaw work well for what my wife would like me to make?? 
I've asked that question myself for ********************$ and giggles.

So…. The poor bugger gets suggestions like… Find an old heavy piece of iron, clean it up and go at it. Don't throw your money away on the big box store crap. You will be much better off… If you don't have 220 just run it off your dryer outlet until you can add 1 in your garage or basement/attic where ever.. Just know that it will be a much better machine. 
Then the bickering goes back 'n' forth and totally confuses the young lad.

Not many ask… Have you ever worked with a saw before? Most come here for good sound advice no? Well,,,,

His response maybe… hell no, Im a baker at my local Tim Horton's, but my wife wants me to make some stuff for around the house and I want to make her happy.

Then the poor bugger comes back with, How do I run this cutter? the box says Maximum 25k rpm..

Some responses are, Oh I run mine up at 25000 rpm all the time, no issues here… Hell, I set my nailer to XXXPSI and that works too etc etc..

These are the safe practices from some professionals I see on a daily basis.

I'm in the camp of… You need to use all of your brain, all of the time. Especially, when you have something in your hand/hands that requires something done with it.

That's all I got…


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> It s a complicated world. For every conscientious person like your friend, there s a roofer who doesn t buy his crews harnesses and fall arresting gear (I know of more than one personally) because it s too expensive and the owner is an asshole who can t be arsed to do even the bare minimum a decent human being would do. He undercuts everyone on price, though, so he never seems to lack for business.
> 
> - jonah


No doubt greed supersedes safety in the management decisions. Here is a primary example. The save a buck crowd killed four removing the pins that held the crane up ;-( Boeing and Pacific Gas and Electric have quite a death toll generating upper management bonuses, eh?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/18/us/seattle-crane-collapse-companies-fined/index.html


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

> Personal shop safety and professional shop safety are 2 entirely different dilemmas.
> 
> Professional shop safety is governed by attorneys and politicians. They make decisions about issues they have absolutely no experience with. Their decisions are motivated by narcissism, greed, and groupthink. Common sense gets no consideration.
> 
> ...


horsepucky, its just as much the worker/tradesmans responsibility to ensure his own safety also, if you are stupid enough to do the job and it not be safe, well then whose to blame, its not always the employer, in fact most of the time its a lazy tradesman or worker choosing not to follow the safety rules. but alas, like talking to a rock
rj in az


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

On that one I do not fully agree, rj. As a kid, we didn't know squat about the chemicals orchardists used. The greedy scum I worked for never provided us respirators or decent spray equipment to apply paraquat and so on. Frankly, they should have been made into paupers for their greed.

When I was running my business, it was my job to make sure the gophers and others were protected. That included the contractors too. I made good enough money there was no excuse not to. And if it was an ignorant kid or even a grown up who knew little about the work, but was willing to work, I had a duty to educate.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> horsepucky, its just as much the worker/tradesmans responsibility to ensure his own safety also, if you are stupid enough to do the job and it not be safe, well then whose to blame, its not always the employer, in fact most of the time its a lazy tradesman or worker choosing not to follow the safety rules. but alas, like talking to a rock
> rj in az
> 
> - Knockonit


I agree it is their responsibility. Jobs of any size have safety inspectors writing citations everyday ;-(( Fall protection is the number 1 violation.

Early in my career, I was surprised by a superintendent exhausting heaters into a job site risking 35 workmen. In a couple of hours, carbon monoxide poisoning would have been a serious concern. What surprised me with most was they all did what they were told, "get back to work and don't worry about it."


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

Fall protection, yes it's a problem. I worked a job many years ago where we removed an electronic box with an antenna attached, from the corner of the roof of an 11-story building. It was pretty heavy, so it took two of us, leaning over the edge, while standing on a rickety step ladder. NO arrest gear, and in fact I had no idea that I should have even had any. I had been laid off from another part of the organization and didn't want to complain about the unsafe conditions.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Most large cooperation's like oil refineries and shipyards have safety patrols that enforce safety rules, like hard hats safety goggles, etc. Being caught without a mandatory safety device would mean a suspension without pay. At least that's where I worked. Being a vendor to the government required the safety requirements. Non conformance with government mandates could jeopardize contracts.

Mandating safety devices sounds like the mandate on face masks and covid vaccinations.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

It bothers me that I see a pattern of the employer as having "greed" and creating a unsafe work environment. I have fall arrest gear for each employee and will often find them out of their protective bags in a pile on the floor of the job or a corner of the van. I have to explain that these need care and need to be used to protect when needed. Sometimes when safety gear or guards are uncomfortable employees take shortcuts. It is this pattern of behavior that has created a position on most lager projects of safety coordinator. They train before anyone is allowed on site and after that they rove around sneaking pictures of any unsafe practices and red tagging unsafe equipment. My point is that it is not always employer greed, sometimes workers need to be protected from themselves.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

> Mandating safety devices sounds like the mandate on face masks and covid vaccinations.
> 
> - MrRon


Only if use insert the safety device into the person. 

This reminds me, aren't dado stacks banned in Europe?


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## Woodnmetal (Jul 24, 2021)

No lunch room safety back in the day. 
They used common sense, without weather reports. 
The 1's that didn't weren't in the picture and or knew they couldn't handle the job.
We have come along way, but, education and common sense is now lacking.
I also suspect, they ate different cookies at lunch back then as well…


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

Every shop owner creates their own set of rules. Some were employees and understand the worker and some are just owners who only understand the dollar.

Thee is a window restoration company in KC. Been there a long time and do restorations for museums, court houses ,churches, etc. One of the best around. I applied for a job there , but heard nothing back. Another employee at a cabinet shop said it was a bad place to work.. He said if you go to the rest room more than twice a day they yell at you. One of the two owners is the goat and undrstandIng, but the other , even being nice is the wolf. 
He makes all final decisions…


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## ManySplinters (Sep 28, 2021)

Lot's of people (employers and employees) did the best they could with the information they had. Safety Data Sheets have not always been available, some gear was as dangerous as the job… but we did our best.

Don't judge the past to harshly, generations from now they will be looking back at us wondering "why did they do that, didn't they know better?". Hopefully they'll see - we did the best we could with the information we had.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

When I started as an electrician apprentice in 1978, there was no safety. It was get out the on the steel kid, what are you afraid of? No safety belts. Bucket truck or scaffolding won't reach, put a ladder on it. Then came safety belts and then lifts, but the lifts were no training and anything goes. Climb on the handrails, or put on a couple planks to stand on. Now it is full body harness, double lanyard, 100% tied off at all times. And a harness is required to operate a lift, even barely raised and driving it across flat pavement. And the death and injury rate have fallen to match the safety improvements. This has nothing to do with saws and guards, but safety improvements over the years in general.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

You can't see what goes on in the shop. Your not in the field except for installation. You'll take the safety measure that the company your installing for. If they require hard hats and steel toe boots you'll wear hem if required or not you get the gig…

Many cabinet shops are in the country and don't have a play book…


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## Woodnmetal (Jul 24, 2021)

Has anyone ever been to a " New subdivision" build site to check the progress of their new home being built? 
I hear stories now and again about framers, brick layers etc… working from scaffolding without the proper gear, along with the scaffolding not secured properly in the mud. Just set up on uneven plywood, the multilayer ply kinda like.

Where is the young qualified engineer super? 
Siting in the trailer, feet up on the desk, talking on his cell phone, or making side deals with other independent contractors.
And, why should he (the super) care.. most are just independent contractors scratching each others backs. 
Just carry em' out and bring in another contractor.
$ome thing$ are ju$t kept quiet the$e day$.

How does that happen??


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I think the increase in attorneys and safety gear is directly proportional.


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## Woodnmetal (Jul 24, 2021)

Or, how many have been in a large stamping plant that run 1st tier automotive parts in a JIT environment? 
Toyota just broadcasted the need for 2000 OEM parts by Friday or the line gets shut down.

This particular stamping die runs well only in the 800T press. The 600T is too small and the 1200T is for the other JIT orders and can't be pulled.

So, the Wednesday team on the night shift ran into a mechanical problem, but are currently short staffed in the maintenance dept and don't really know how to use a lockout tag, plus the maintenance doors are locked anyway. Why, because the afternoon maintenance guy was told he better lock the door on his way out in case of theft.

Now an experienced, yet not licensed employee, seems to think the flywheel, brake and clutch assembly is failing and could cause a double hit along with the possibility of serious injury if the light curtains fail as well. 
Hey, its a possibility..

So the call to the floor says… Just keep running it and be careful, we don't want to shut the Toyota line down or we will be out $$$$ for each hour were late on our delivery.

How does that happen??

Again, $ome thing$ are ju$t kept quiet the$e days..

Good thing COVID, wowed things down a bit… The build back could prove to be consequential thou, since most of the attorneys along with new safety procedures come with greater price tags.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

Having worked at a few different Industries, with over 500 hundred employees at each site I saw the truth about industrial safety. Any given sites safety Manager is the reason each site would appear to be safe, not safe or indifferent. There is no one personality doing that job.

Viewed from above the unsafe/indifferent safety managers are viewed as very efficient. They spend almost nothing on safety equipment, training, classes, or any time at all pursuing safer work practices. They tend to be short lived, and are asked to leave when the sum of law suits come at once, and total more than profits from the same time frame. If however there aren't any suits, or the employees loose them, they may be seen as Gods, but still it's a sooner or later proposition.

The safe Safety guy will spend whatever is needed, to buy supplies, gear, and training. With frequent meetings, and routinely looking at any instance of an employee injury to see what did happen, and is there anything we can do to keep it from happening to someone else. Short term the people above them call them a PIA, and lookit all the $$$$$$ you are spending, is it really necessary? Maintenance is a HUGE part of the employee base, and they are diligent to keep the place as safe as possible, and when and if situations, jobs, parts made, change, then changes need to be made to the equipment to make it safe. This makes buying equipment for the workers look like chump change

Long term profits keep coming, because they have few if any real serious injuries to sap the bottom line.

I'm not saying that individual employees aren't responsible for their actions, but the overall safety of any company starts at the top, and hopefully filters down through everyone there. At the 2 places like this I was at, I found the Safety guy had a lot of helpers. Both places gave bonuses to the work force, and if there were no injuries, or only minor ones, bonus time was a good time of year. So I saw the rank and file policing their own, if a guy wasn't following the safety line they were quickly and efficiently "changed" How they got changed was up to them, most saw fit to look for work elsewhere if they couldn't do the easy change.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> Having worked at a few different Industries, with over 500 hundred employees at each site I saw the truth about industrial safety. Any given sites safety Manager is the reason each site would appear to be safe, not safe or indifferent. There is no one personality doing that job.
> 
> Viewed from above the unsafe/indifferent safety managers are viewed as very efficient. They spend almost nothing on safety equipment, training, classes, or any time at all pursuing safer work practices. They tend to be short lived, and are asked to leave when the sum of law suits come at once, and total more than profits from the same time frame. If however there aren t any suits, or the employees loose them, they may be seen as Gods, but still it s a sooner or later proposition.
> 
> ...


Similar experiences Steven. I've been in Industrial construction, Oil and Gas, Power, etc. for the last 40 years or so and have seen many changes for the better. Industrial safety procedures and adherence to said procedures is the leader by far. Commercial isn't too far behind and residential is still hit and miss.

Safety leads and advisors are not the police anymore, they are there to ensure the policies, procedures, PPE and tools are in place. Everybody is responsible to ensure the safety of themselves and others.

I cringe watching contractors, particularly on the residential side, doing things that would get you immediately fired on an industrial site.

Fines from OHS here in Canada can be severe for both workers, supervisors and company owners. The almighty dollar can make some do incredibly unsafe things, taking chances that nothing will happen and they won't get caught. Thankfully, that part of the industry has also gotten much safer although with a fair ways to go.


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

wow, just wow,


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## EdWeber (Jun 17, 2021)

> I m not hashing at SS for making the saw they make. I m stating a fact, that you can read on here, or any woodworking venue in the USA. People equate table saw safety today with owning a SS. NOT with always using guards, safe practices, common sense. Virtually all the things the every day users that have added to this thread, that they do on a regular basis to ensure their safety.
> 
> You see it on virtually every video you see of someone using a SS, Safe use isn t being talked about, or shown. Don t need that, I gots me a Saw Stop.
> 
> ...


A professional does his job safely, efficiently and thoroughly and at the end of the day usually gets paid for his work. There really are no such things as "tricks" or "hacks" or short cuts when you're asking about safe practices.
SS may be a safer option for some but it doesn't help teach anything about the safe use of the tool, just how to change your blade and your underwear.
Years ago people grew up in the country and farms, not the city, you learned what you had to. Much of the things the younger 'makers" and others are discovering as new was just a daily part of life for many of us. If something broke, we fixed it, if we didn't have something, we either made it or made due with something else. I don't want to go down the "kids these days" path but learning the basics is entirely lost. 
I also had shop class where we learned a little about wood, metal, cooking and sewing. All of this is just a memory for me and a story of the old times for younger people.
"Learning" from youtube and forums can be beneficial BUT you need to come at it with some knowledge. Which, as I mentioned is rare. Some simply don't know enough to separate the safe from the unsafe, this goes for the presenters as well. Just because someone has lots of youtube videos doesn't mean they're a professional.
If you don't know what a tool can and can't do, you shouldn't be using it, for safety reasons.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

I can't quite figure out why any discussion on safety always devolves into an "all or nothing" statement where it's either rely on hard won experience and forgo the use of safety features entirely or be some sort of ninny.

It's not that simple. Tool safety features are helpful. Knowledge and experience are also helpful. Having a mentality of always questioning the safety of a particular operation is helpful.

All things being equal, a Sawstop saw will always be safer than a non-SS saw. That's not to say everyone needs one, that it's a substitute for experience, or anything else, because that's ridiculous, but it's one thing that will make the saw indisputably safer.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> It bothers me that I see a pattern of the employer as having "greed" and creating a unsafe work environment. I have fall arrest gear for each employee and will often find them out of their protective bags in a pile on the floor of the job or a corner of the van. I have to explain that these need care and need to be used to protect when needed. Sometimes when safety gear or guards are uncomfortable employees take shortcuts. It is this pattern of behavior that has created a position on most lager projects of safety coordinator. They train before anyone is allowed on site and after that they rove around sneaking pictures of any unsafe practices and red tagging unsafe equipment. My point is that it is not always employer greed, sometimes workers need to be protected from themselves.
> 
> - controlfreak


Boeing is the epitome of creating unsafe work environments. PBS broadcast their Fatal Flaw. Definitely motivated by greed.

One ironworker I will never forget was using a frayed choker unloading steel beams. I mentioned it and was told to mind my own business. I should have called L&I. Two days later they crushed a young man's leg when it broke.

The superintendent exhausting heaters into a job site risking 35 workmen I mentioned above in post 56 told me he would have me removed from the job if I did not get back to work. I told him he better hurry because I was going to pick up my tools and leave. I will call L&I and tell them they had better come to look for survivors when I get to the first pay phone. He apparently had a change of heart. By the time I got my tools picked up, the carpenters and laborers were putting the exhaust pipes back on the heaters.


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## kelvancra (May 4, 2010)

Ah yes, speaking of big self serving entities, I remember my days working at Puget Sound Naval Shipyards. We'd be in a room and the next one, with the doors off, had a lagger removing insulation from pipes. All he had on was an N95.

The asbestos problem was handled via a six inch metal flex pipe ran from a few decks up, sucking air from the room, to create a negative air pressure. The door to the room was always wide open.

We had no protection. After all, we were electrical.

From there, I moved on to the Naval Torpedo Station. During times of slow, we were sent out to the container fields to check for live munitions, until CONgress got our local feds more funding. Then we went back to our electronics work benches.

These are all part of the same band of foxes watching the other hen houses.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

This thread has gotten way off track. The fact is amateurs should not follow every move of pros, cause we do not take every precaution imaginable. For good reason. I would not get anything done if I followed every "law" people suggest.

I routinely put my fingers within an inch of a table saw blade. Probably 10x a day.(at least 30 today) Honestly, I am more scared of cutting my finger with my knife or chisel than table saw.

Would I ever suggest anyone else do this? of course not. Do what your comfortable with.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> This thread has gotten way off track. The fact is amateurs should not follow every move of pros, cause we do not take every precaution imaginable.
> 
> - CWWoodworking


True, but it would be fun to watch them try.

BTW, it's not just a matter of amateurs and pros. There are plenty of seasoned amateurs who are far more experienced than many "pros." Pro only means you're compensated for your work, not that you're necessarily some sort of skilled master.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> This thread has gotten way off track. The fact is amateurs should not follow every move of pros, cause we do not take every precaution imaginable.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


Oh hell Id totally agree with that. Id trust you over the guy I work next to. Just based on your intelligent responses. and that he has 7 fingers. Damn, Im pretty sure im the only one who thought that was funny. seriously, not joking.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Back to the track ;-) I was certainly surprised by my first kickback off the table saw. Fortunately, I was spooked enough I never stood in line with the workpiece. It hit the wall behind me doing about 100 mph! I'm not a 1" finger guy on the table saw. But I don't have enough experience. I'm comfortable working hot circuits. That was standard practice in my younger days ;-)


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Back to the track ;-) I was certainly surprised by my first kickback off the table saw. Fortunately, I was spooked enough I never stood in line with the workpiece. It hit the wall behind me doing about 100 mph! I m not a 1" finger guy on the table saw. But I don t have enough experience. I m comfortable working hot circuits. That was standard practice in my younger days ;-)
> 
> - TopamaxSurvivor


This is a perfect example. I dont even change plugs. Even though I know how, and know how to operate a panel, I still just hire someone. I mean, 2 bills and Im done and never have to worry about being bacon.


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## controlfreak (Jun 29, 2019)

I was new, for the most part to using a table saw a few years ago. I thought I new all about being safe, I didn't. I did get on you tube to learn all I could about safe operation. That is when I found that creepy video of a guy deliberately inducing a kickback and the stunt brought his hand to within a fraction of an inch of the blade. He screwed up and got lucky. I guess it worked, I never stand inline the workpiece and don't let my hands go past the blade unless far from it or attached to a push stick/block. Now, was he a professional? I hope not.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> This thread has gotten way off track. The fact is amateurs should not follow every move of pros, cause we do not take every precaution imaginable.
> 
> - CWWoodworking
> 
> ...


You don't find too many amatuers with the amount of hours the pros put into the shop. A hobby guy doing it for 60 years at 2 hours on Saturday compared to a 10 year cabinet maker at 40 hours a week.

It's hard to get those kind of comparisons…

I've had guys who were cabinet guys who failed when it came to the furniture company. They think wood putty is a cabinet in a can…

A Woodnet hobby woodworker took a job at a cabinet shop. He quit after one week. Said he couldnt understand the pace they work at. Guess he thought they sat around looking at YouTube videos all day or in chat rooms?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> You don t find too many amatuers with the amount of hours the pros put into the shop. A hobby guy doing it for 60 years at 2 hours on Saturday compared to a 10 year cabinet maker at 40 hours a week.
> 
> It s hard to get those kind of comparisons…
> 
> - JackDuren


It must be hard to compare because yours doesn't hold water. How did you come up with those numbers? I know. You made them up. Besides, who said that

I stand by my statement.



> A Woodnet hobby woodworker took a job at a cabinet shop. He quit after one week. Said he couldnt understand the pace they work at. Guess he thought they sat around looking at YouTube videos all day or in chat rooms?


So? What does that have to do with anything?


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I stand by mine..

I was in this field for 37 years. I've heard and seen pretty much everything…I draw disabilty now based on the 37 years I've worked in the residential, commercial or furniture field. I had to other income. I had no other income other than woodworking professionally..

Rich is woodworking your only source of income or do you pull a pension from another, previous job?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich is woodworking your only source of income or do you pull a pension from another, previous job?
> 
> - JackDuren


A) that's irrelevant; and B) it's none of your damn business.

Any more questions?


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

you answer it perfectly..


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> you answer it perfectly..
> 
> - JackDuren


Did I say I have more experience than pros do, Jack? No, I did not. Therefore, any questions about my background are irrelevant, and my finances are none of your business. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

But, I am certain that many amateurs do exist who can run rings around many "pros," yourself included. I know some of them personally.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

I agree. There are pros that do nothing all day but make drawers, an edge bander or a CNC. Alll day. Some only know one task of the shop. There called grunts. Dime a dozen, but still called pros…


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## Knockonit (Nov 5, 2017)

lol, we had or still have a company here that did all the drywall, painting ect .for the Sun City , delweb projects .
they had men that caulked for decades or two. guys and gals that only masked, sprayers ect. pretty sure yo get the drift. what i'm alluding to is that they weren' t cross trained in anything , nor did they attempt to learn more, i guess content in their function, lending them to limited opportunities when they moved on.

when i started my first framing biz in the mid 80s, i interviewed a lotta neophytes coming to Phoenix, one young man was so confident and had a good attitude, and when asked what he had been doing since high school, he was a ""snapper'', now i'm a man of the world or thought i was, and only knew of a couple definitions of a snapper, of which he was none. 
when i finally bit, he had been the person who snapped a chalk line for a layout crew ,carried the lines, the chalk, the weights, and did minor layout .but usually he was the'"snapper'' i was quite surprised, did give him a chance, and a year later was second lead on a crew, sharp kid, and eventually went on to start his own crew and company and did well, we are still friends to this day. 
even now, when we hire a newbie, i'm somewhat surprised at how they have re invented some of the trades methods, still have hope it will and its nuances will survive .
hobbist or not
Rj in az


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Some people really specialize!! The caulkers are for the most part artists, but I don't want the amount of practice they get. When we have projects like powerplants being built, some people get into the same crew for years, running conduit, or pulling cable, or hanging light fixtures. That is why we keep apprentices away from those jobs till fifth year, so they can become well rounded journeymen. And women. But they also receive more safety training than on a small commercial job.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

> Some people really specialize!! The caulkers are for the most part artists, but I don t want the amount of practice they get. When we have projects like powerplants being built, some people get into the same crew for years, running conduit, or pulling cable, or hanging light fixtures. That is why we keep apprentices away from those jobs till fifth year, so they can become well rounded journeymen. And women. But they also receive more safety training than on a small commercial job.
> 
> - ibewjon


Two of the guys who live across the street are linemen, high tension stuff. They tell me about people coming out of the military with no line experience getting preference for hiring. How is it where you are? I hired into the Millwrights as a journeyman in '92, but I had been doing mechanic work for over 15 years, served as a machinist's mate in the Navy, and was 40 when I joined. I can tell you how much safety training I had in the Navy (except for things like don't stand between a boat and the ship, when it's being launched, in boot camp)...zero. I remember seeing the fluff from asbestos lagging floating all over the engine room when we were doing maintenance or repairs.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

> Two of the guys who live across the street are linemen, high tension stuff. They tell me about people coming out of the military with no line experience getting preference for hiring. How is it where you are? I hired into the Millwrights as a journeyman in 92, but I had been doing mechanic work for over 15 years, served as a machinist s mate in the Navy, and was 40 when I joined. I can tell you how much safety training I had in the Navy (except for things like don t stand between a boat and the ship, when it s being launched, in boot camp)...zero. I remember seeing the fluff from asbestos lagging floating all over the engine room when we were doing maintenance or repairs.
> 
> - Dark_Lightning


Anything over 250 volts is extremely hazardous and can easily arc flash if shorted. That is basically a ball of fire 5,000 to 35,000 ° F.

I used to troubleshoot and repair a lot of electrical in a local plant that did rebar coating. It was some kind of green color epoxy. The primary customer was the state of WA using it in highway construction to prevent the rust issue. Everything in the building was coated with fine green dust. All the workers would disappear if someone yelled "Immigration!" I sort of wondered if I should be in there and if all those Mexicans would have Green Lung by the time they were fifty.

One day they called and said they had a main service switchgear problem. I went down and they had blown up a 480 volt 200 Amp fused disconnect unit in the main service. Two of the office guys were prying on a fuse they thought was bad, it wasn't. They thought they had turned the power off, but they hadn't. They shorted it out phase to phase and the power company's transformer fuse was not fast enough. They knocked power out of the west half of the town with a population of probably 30,000 at that time.

They definitely had an Arc Flash! There was a metal utility cabinet about 6 feet from the switchgear. It had a dark, greasy-looking smear down it. That was from the guy that was standing behind the one prying on the fuse. His polyester shirt melted and the smear is where he fell back and slid down. He was severely scarred and was temporarily blinded. I do not remember if the guy in front doing the prying died or was permanently disabled.

Those safety standards are typical of lots of managers even though they say safety is their primary concern. Reviewing explosion investigations by the US Chemical Board, the FBI, and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, the most common denominator cited is management not addressing serious issues; code violations, lack of employee training, improper operational procedures, and lack of maintenance.


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