# Heating the shop for winter question



## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

So I have fairly large garage 24×32 and its walls are insulated not the ceiling yet as I haven't had the time. I'm looking at purchasing a heater temporarily until next year when I get my NG Modine Hot Dawg heater installed. I'm looking at the Mr. Heater 30,000 BTU Propane Vent Free heater and wondering if this will suffice I have two 20lbs tanks and I usually only get 2-3 hours at night on the weekdays and 5-6 on the weekends.

Is this a good heater that won't eat through a 20lb tank in a week? Do these off gas any moisture to the air that will rust my cast iron surfaces?

This is what I'm looking at

http://www.ruralking.com/mr-heater-30-000-btu-propane-blue-flame-vent-free-heater


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Confusing it reads like you need a 100lb tank, but then has acceptance for 20lb weird.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

According to the Q&A on the link you posted, the admin states that the tank will use 1.38lbs/hr on a medium setting. So, around 14 hours per 20# cylinder on medium. Sounds like with your usage, you'll eat through that tank in a week, assuming you start it up a bit before you begin working, and maybe shut it off a bit before you're done. They also say in the Q&A not to use anything less than 100lb, but not sure why that is.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

I had one in my last garage. It was 26×22, insulated walls and ceiling, but no vapor barrier anywhere. I install;ed the heater and ran it one day. I happened to go up into the attic the next day only to see water dripping from the deck of the roof. They give off a lot of moisture, I disconnected mine that day, removed it and gave tit to a Goodwill store. As for the 20# tank, remember that's less than 5 gallons. So, 95K BTU per gallon, each gallon will allow the heater to burn about 3 hours…or 15 hours of burn time roughly. It won't be running all the time (I wouldn't think), but that might give you some idea. If it were me, I think I would look into some small electric heaters but that's juts my approach.


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## summerfi (Oct 12, 2013)

My shop is exactly the same size as yours, but the ceiling is insulated. I use a 45K BTU vented natural gas heater and it works fine. I think the 30K would be a little on the small side, and I would definitely be concerned about the moisture a non-vented heater would put in a shop full of metal tools. If it's only temporary, you might get by with it. I supplement my heat with this, and on sunny days I never have to turn my gas heater on, no matter how cold it is. It works amazingly well.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Would the type of heater matter for the moisture, does the convection produce more then the infrared model? Is one worse than the other for a woodshop?


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

This type of heater (non-vented) will dump the fumes back into the room. Including the Carbon Monoxide. This is not safe to breath!

I would suggest that you bite the bullet and buy the permanent heater now instead of risking your health for a year.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Would the type of heater matter for the moisture, does the convection produce more then the infrared model? Is one worse than the other for a woodshop?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


Not in my experience, they both put out enough to be a problem.


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## johnstoneb (Jun 14, 2012)

One of the byproducts of combustion is water. You need an externally vented heater to keep from breathing the combustion gases (one of which is carbon monoxide) and water vapor/


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Well unfortunately I don't have the time and daylight to dig trench for a gas line running to my garage and bore through my foundation to get it there. So that is not a possibility until spring, I need something that can heat the space that doesn't require gas to install and isn't over $300 if possible.


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## jkinoh (Mar 16, 2013)

I'd make the time to insulate ceiling first, then figure what heat source you want.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

This is a *TEMPORARY* solution, I know I need to insulate I'm not installing it until I finish the wiring for the new heater which I can't dig trench for until spring.

All I need are heaters that will make it warm enough so I can feel my face after 20 minutes when it gets cold outside for the next 5-6 months (YAY NE NY winters last forever), that won't rust my tools, cause a fire or kill me lol.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Here is a link to a BTU calculator that you can use to figure what size heater you need. But first insulate your ceiling or you'll be just wasting your money.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

For temporary I would just get an IR heater.


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## TinWhiskers (Oct 17, 2015)

> This is a *TEMPORARY* solution, I know I need to insulate I m not installing it until I finish the wiring for the new heater which I can t dig trench for until spring.
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


You have power in your garage? Why a trench? My 35k BTU Hot Dawg is on a 20 A circuit. If I had to I could run it off an outlet. 24×36 shop.

Really beware of old borrowed heaters. I borrowed a heater once, must have been 50K. Really put out the heat. Went to use a handheld propane torch and it wouldn't light. Happened to have another on the bench. That wouldn't light either. OUT went the borrowed heater. I have a carbon monoxide detector in my shop too.

If you want to go from outside temp to 50 it would take forever with a 30K BTU. How about 50K?


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

What about something like this I already have the plug required or is this dangerous for fine dust and the like catching fire?


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## jkinoh (Mar 16, 2013)

I realize you said it was a temporary heating solution, but the heat (and money) you'll waste with a ceiling that's not insulated will add up quickly, especially in 5 or 6 months of NY winter! Just adding my suggestion. I don't know what's above the ceiling in your garage, and if it's a pain to get to, but I'd look into it. Best of all, no daylight required!


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> You have power in your garage? Why a trench? My 35k BTU Hot Dawg is on a 20 A circuit. If I had to I could run it off an outlet. 24×36 shop.
> 
> If you want to go from outside temp to 50 it would take forever with a 30K BTU. How about 50K?
> 
> - TinWhiskers


Because all the Hot Dawg units I've seen run off LP or Natural Gas and I don't have an LP tank so I'd need a trench to run the gas line to my garage.



> For temporary I would just get an IR heater.
> 
> - Rick M.


Any suggestions and what about one of these? or if you know of a better IR heater or should I just get the little ones and move it with me, like this junk?


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> I realize you said it was a temporary heating solution, but the heat (and money) you ll waste with a ceiling that s not insulated will add up quickly, especially in 5 or 6 months of NY winter! Just adding my suggestion. I don t know what s above the ceiling in your garage, and if it s a pain to get to, but I d look into it. Best of all, no daylight required!
> 
> - jkinoh


I have a lot of my drying lumber stored up there and I'm not looking to take it all down in the freezing ass cold, I deal with the cost to woodwork and not go insane sitting indoors for 5-6 months, this hobby is already expensive whats a few more dollars.


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## TinWhiskers (Oct 17, 2015)

You must have time to insulate the ceiling. Absolutely the #1 priority job to do.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I went with this Farenheat unit - - My shop is smaller than yours at 14X21 but I have never run it above 50% to have it be 70 degrees.

I leave it on at ~2 continuously and the garage while it is 30 and blowing the shop is 55 degrees.

I like this better than your electric choice because there is no exposed heating filament - so I don't worry about igniting anything.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_heaters-stoves-fireplaces+electric-heaters+electric-garage-industrial-heaters
Been running this since 2005 - - I think it was only 159 or 179 back then.


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## RJRosa (Jul 8, 2012)

I installed a pellet stove. It takes a little while to really warm the shop but I'm used to a wood stove in the house. Sometimes you can find a good used one on CL. My shop is 24×24 and insulated both ceiling and walls.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> What about something like this I already have the plug required or is this dangerous for fine dust and the like catching fire?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


I think one of those will work for you, if the 13500 BTU (+/-) is adequate. They are commonly sold as barn and garage heaters at farm outlets. The suspended heater like Dr. Dirt shows would also be good, about the same BTU, but you would have to run your 240V up to where ever it's at, it would take a higher amperage circuit (30 amp) than your wall outlet likely has.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> You must have time to insulate the ceiling. Absolutely the #1 priority job to do.
> 
> - TinWhiskers


I work 60 hours a week right now and the little time I get before my son and pregnant wife go to bed is spent with them leaving me a window of 2-3 hours from 8:30-11:30pm to woodwork. You think it's a priority, I do not, I don't care if it costs me more to heat through the winter, I just want to enjoy the little bit of alone time I get in my shop, and I don't want to spend it getting fiberglass stuck in my skin, clothes, hair in the freezing cold. Not to mention the wood, machines, and the other abundance of tools I have in my garage I'd have to move to install it…it's absolutely not a #1 priority for me come spring time yes it will be I'll rent a POD or Container and move all my stuff in there but until then I just need something temporary.


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

Upstate, I also have a shop that needs a permanent heating solution but for the past 3 winters I ve used a, Kerosene radiant heater,Dyna-Glo convection Kerosene, Mr Heater forced air propane,and radiant electric heaters.

The Kerosene heaters are now collecting dust in my shed because I couldn't stand the lingering Kerosene smell.

The forced air propane is still used but only for 10 minutes to get rid of the chill in my shop on those cold Canadian mornings, any longer than 10 minutes,I'll end up with a huge buildup of moisture and carbon monoxide.

The most used type of heater and also the easiest is the radiant electric heaters,I got 2 of them ,instant heat at the flick of the switch,the downside is, it's slightly more expensive to run but I don't have to worry about hauling the 20 lbs propane tank to the gas station to fill every 10 days,or move that tank around the shop so I don't trip over it.

So until I get a ceiling mounted natural gas radiant heater like Schwank radiant tube heaters, I'll be using my electric heaters just because they are safe , efficient and practical and also the forced air propane heater on cold days.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> What about something like this I already have the plug required or is this dangerous for fine dust and the like catching fire?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude
> 
> ...


Thank you Fred


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> I work 60 hours a week right now and the little time I get before my son and pregnant wife go to bed is spent with them leaving me a window of 2-3 hours from 8:30-11:30pm to woodwork.


This changes things. As a father of two, I'd say your money is best spent on boxes of diapers. Put them all in the space above the shop. Seems like boxes of diapers probably have a pretty good R-value. Besides, when that second one comes along, you wont have 5-6 hours on the weekends for a while anyways. Good luck.


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## TheLastDeadMouse (Aug 19, 2014)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Williams-20-000-BTU-Hr-Enclosed-Front-Console-Propane-Gas-Room-Heater-2001621A/202898155 Its a bit more than 300 you are aiming at, but I spent time looking for how to get vented non-electric heat this year and these are about as cheap as they get. I installed a 35,000 BTU propane model in my rental unit this year and so far the tenants like it.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Any suggestions and what about one of these? or if you know of a better IR heater or should I just get the little ones and move it with me, like this junk?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


I can't comment on those specific heaters. I have a 1500W heater for my shop (16×20) and it takes a couple hours to really warm things up but I have no insulation. 4000W might do the job. I like infrared because it's instant heat as long as you are in front of it. I've been looking at this as a better solution for my shop. It's 220.
http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Infrared-Heater-DR988-Industrial/dp/B003XOZN7A/ref=sr_1_2?


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

I live in NY as well and have used something like this many years (not exact model though).

At the time I had a 1 car garage that had no insulation anywhere. It got cold!

My only complaint is the moisture. Propane heat puts out a lot of moisture. I would sometimes get condensation on my cast iron tops which would make some of them rust. Not all though??

In the end my solution was to spray CRC-36 on the tops before I left. The next time I used the tool I would have to clean it off. Small price for me to get some shop time in.

I moved about a year ago and now I'm in the basement so the weather isn't a factor anymore.

Good luck.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> Any suggestions and what about one of these? or if you know of a better IR heater or should I just get the little ones and move it with me, like this junk?
> 
> - UpstateNYdude
> 
> ...


Thanks Rick I'm actually going to order that exact one now as I have an unused 30 amp breaker and would only take me 20 minutes to wire it up.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> I work 60 hours a week right now and the little time I get before my son and pregnant wife go to bed is spent with them leaving me a window of 2-3 hours from 8:30-11:30pm to woodwork.
> 
> This changes things. As a father of two, I d say your money is best spent on boxes of diapers. Put them all in the space above the shop. Seems like boxes of diapers probably have a pretty good R-value. Besides, when that second one comes along, you wont have 5-6 hours on the weekends for a while anyways. Good luck.
> 
> - BinghamtonEd


Oh I make plenty of money especially with this amount of overtime pay. We are well stocked on diapers my friend, I went through this rodeo 3 and half years ago so I know the sleep deprivation I'm in for, it's the mood swinging wife that really terrifies me ;-)


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## ChefHDAN (Aug 7, 2010)

Nick, I'm in a slightly warmer clime, but have some reasonably cold days here. Family has a cabin in the Adirondack park so I can appreciate HOW much colder you're battling. I heat over the winter with ceramic heaters, one in each corner of the shop (2 car garage) and wear insulated boots, insulated bib overalls and a good hat. I'll pre heat for 30 minutes or so and then go to work, after an hour or so the sweatshirt comes off and sometimes the overalls too. The damn feet though never seem to get warm walking on the concrete. Whenever I need to spray or work with combustibles I just turn off the heaters while I'm working and try to plan a break for afterwards to clear any fumes before turning them back on. As for the dust, I'm sure that the life of the heaters have been shortened by the dust but I've never had any danger issues and only let them run without me close for the short bit I pre heat, I think if you do the same with that 4k electric heater you'll be fine.


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## BinghamtonEd (Nov 30, 2011)

> I went through this rodeo 3 and half years ago so I know the sleep deprivation I m in for, it s the mood swinging wife that really terrifies me ;-)
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


Haha, I find that nothing compares to the mood swings of a 3 year old.


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## poordustmaker (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm in a similar situation, uninsulated garage in northeast Ohio. I don't know if you get a lot of snow by you, but I've been worried about the possibility of ice dams forming no matter what type of heater I use. Not sure if that is even an issue though.


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

> Thanks Rick I m actually going to order that exact one now as I have an unused 30 amp breaker and would only take me 20 minutes to wire it up.
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


That's even better, 19K BTU +/-....should work well, and relatively inexpensive to buy.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> Haha, I find that nothing compares to the mood swings of a 3 year old.
> 
> - BinghamtonEd


I usually just wrestle with the demon till he laughs or loses interest, my wife on the other hand is not into either of those two options LOL


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> I m in a similar situation, uninsulated garage in northeast Ohio. I don t know if you get a lot of snow by you, but I ve been worried about the possibility of ice dams forming no matter what type of heater I use. Not sure if that is even an issue though.
> 
> - Jim B


We get tons of snow up here, I don't have gutters on my garage so ice damming is none existent, but I usually go out and remove any kind of formation of icicles and ice off the edges because my dog and kid like it outside and I'm to afraid one might fall and hit them. That and I have a tin roof so snow usually just glides right off.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

> Thanks Rick I m actually going to order that exact one now as I have an unused 30 amp breaker and would only take me 20 minutes to wire it up.
> 
> - UpstateNYdude


Hopefully you'll report back on how it works. It's not cold here yet so I haven't been motivated to install a new heater.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

I have that same heater Rick linked to . Been using it for almost 4 years now. I welded up a little cart for it and move it around as needed. Sometimes it a bit cooler at one end of the shop so I just roll it over a bit and point it the other way. Oh, I made a 23' extension cord and it works fine. (So long as you don't mind the cord on the floor) 
.
.


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## lateralus819 (Mar 24, 2013)

Nick- What about picking up an old Mobile home furnace. Run the kerosene feed into a 5 gallon bucket. Done.

A buddy at work picked one up for $100.

125,000 BTU.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

> Nick- What about picking up an old Mobile home furnace. Run the kerosene feed into a 5 gallon bucket. Done.
> 
> A buddy at work picked one up for $100.
> 
> ...


I thought about doing that as my uncle has a nice mobile home furnace, but I hate the smell of Kerosene, it makes my head hurt after breathing that in for a bit. I'm just overly sensitive to smells I'm sure, but I'm putting in the rest of my insulation, new garage doors, and hopefully some sheet rock and then my Hot Dawg 45k or 60k BTU in the spring that runs off NG and a Nest thermostat so I can turn it up from my phone before I head out.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

I just installed a Profusion PH-960 my 3 car garage (20' x 27'). It is a detached garage that I insulated (both walls and ceiling) this past summer.

It hasn't gotten real cold in Chicago yet, but I had the day off yesterday and spent all day in the garage. Outside temps started around 27 and got up to around freezing in the afternoon (got about an inch of snow). I had the garage up to 65 after one hour. The heater cycles on and off to maintain the temp. It could go higher, but I run the danger of staring to sweat. Can't have that!

It uses the same 220/30A circuit that my table saw uses. I only installed one outlet so that its impossible to run both at the same time since that will pop the breaker.

I had thought of going with a propane heater, but it would take up a lot of room and I've read a lot about the condensation and rust problems with propane. My NG meter is on the far side of the yard with walkways, driveways, and a patio in between. I would have loved a wood stove, but just don't have the space.

The Profusion hangs from the ceiling and takes up no floor space and only a small bit of wall space. It only needs to be 4" from the back wall and a foot on either side. I bought it when Menards had one of their 11% off deals, so it was fairly inexpensive.


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