# Designer Side Table $1400 + tax



## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

A co-worker asked me if I could make this side table he saw for him. I told him to get a picture for me and I'd take it from there.

He got a picture for me, I did some digging and found that a local furniture store has them for sale. A few emails later and I have a price from them…$1470 + tax (CAD). I thought this was a bit high for a smallish side table but it's from one of THOSE furniture stores.

My biggest shock came when I found it is only a Walnut veneer, not solid wood! The finished product will look like this but made from solid wood….and not $1400 either.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

How you gonna do that with solid wood? Beveled edges?

I'd veneer it and charge a grand. Fastest grand you'd ever make.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Don, I'm confused, what does it do? Drawers? Cabinet space?


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

It's just a cube side table with a slot in it for your iPad, e-reader, magazine, newspaper etc.

Jay - haven't figured out all the details on how to build it but it's not going to be veneered.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I'd veneer it too. People are attracted to these planar,
cubic pieces. The customer may just want the general
geometry and function, but the sleek planarity veneering
or painting allows is a big part of the attraction in many
cases where people are asking for modern stuff.

You can saw your own veneers thick to work more
like solid wood and get away from the brittle corners
veneered work sometimes has.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Sorry, Don, but I get a kick outta people who act like veneer is pseudo-woodworking. Why do people think that?

A table like that is just wasting a bunch of perfectly good walnut. I'm not trying to insult you, Don, but I'm genuinely curious what reasons people have. Is it not challenging enough? Is it too "Ikea" for people? Do we think that anything other than solid hardwood is beneath us?

I think you will find a solid wood construction to be very difficult if you want to maintain the look of this piece. And in that case, $1400 might be too little money.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

You'd have thought for that money they'd match the veneers so they didn't have a yonic repeat pattern.


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

That's a veneer project in my book as well. Nothing about it would be improved by using solid wood, and we're supposed to save that good wood for projects that need it =)


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Folks - for me it's as simple as I've never tackled a project that calls for veneer other than what I did when taking my cabinetry course in college. Guess I'm more afraid of it than anything else…much more comfortable doing it out of solid wood.

What do you use as a substrate? MDF?

What about using Walnut veneered plywood?


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

That doesn't look like walnut to me, it looks like wenge.

And I'm with Cosmic… Lots of seriously important period furniture has been veneered.

I found that table online, and it IS solid wood, veneered with a rarer species:
http://29armstrong.com/tables/darwinizm-side-table#

The "I can build that cheaper" 'tude is what cheapens our craft on a daily basis. Did YOU design the item? The artist has design time, including previous incarnations, as well as the education and experience getting to that point, to TRY and recoup.

Feel free to design your own stuff and sell it at Ikea prices. How's 2X or 3X materials sound? I see that one on the Internet all the time.

Nice things are sold on a "market will bear" pricing model. If you can make a living at it, with your own work, let us know… Don't forget, the retailer often gets ~ half.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

The problem with making that from solid is movement. The sides will expand/contract - only a very small amount, but that could lead to problems on the horizontal surfaces. Veneered sheet goods have only a 0.6mm or thereabout veneer, so easy to sand thru and presenting problems at the corners.
If you make your own veneers you will get around the problems presented by a thin veneer. MDF is a good substrate, you would just have to make sure you do both sides to balance it.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Not sure what point you are trying to make Barry….


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Sorry…

I can't think of how to make those points more clearly.

It's one thing to sell your own work for whatever makes you happy, or to copy something for yourself.

It's fully another to build and sell someone else's currently available design, for the purpose of undercutting the original maker's retail price, without the designer's permission.

It cheapens our craft. Sorry…


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Good points Barry, but we live in a cheap society.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

The client emailed me asking if I could make a side table for him and I said yes. I asked if he had an idea/design in mind.

He came to me with a sketch and told me a friend of his is a cabinet maker and made this out of a solid piece of wood….a tree stump. With the sketch and story of his friend, I Googled 'side table with slot' or something similar. Found the picture (eventually) and showed him, asked if that was what he meant.

"WOW!!! YES!!! That's it exactly" was what he said. He said "I know it's going to be expensive so just let me know and let me know if you can do it and a general time frame"

Emailed a local store because I had no idea what I would even ask for a price.

My design? Nope.
Can I do it? Yup.

So, would you say "I won't do this for you. I'd rather you go to 'this store and pay $1500 for it. Have a nice day"


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

That's a lot different from the original story, which said… "could I make this side table?"

If someone asks you to execute a concept, maybe from a Nigel Tufnel napkin sketch, and you do the measured design and presentation, that's completely different… In fact, I'd credit it as YOUR design.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Renners - Best point of the entire thread and I'm mad that I didn't even thing about it. I was so hung up on how to make beveled edges. The substructure would almost have to plywood or mdf. I'd be inclined to use top quality Baltic birch plywood. You just can't bevel all the edges of real wood and glue the top down on all four edges.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

You'll have to be very careful with wood selection if you plan to build from solid wood.

Wenge? Maybe zebrawood. Hard to tell though from such a crappy picture. You'd think that a $1400 piece would warrant better than a cell phone quality picture.


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## skywalker01 (May 19, 2009)

I fourth veneer. I don't like using it myself but given the design issues and wood movement it really does make a lot of sense. Also given a slightly brighter light on the photo I'd say it was zebra wood. Pretty popular in modern design right now.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Here's a better shot:
http://29armstrong.com/tables/darwinizm-side-table#

From the designer's site:
http://www.izm.ca/darwinizm-side-table.php

Zebrawood does seem like a better guess, but according to the tear sheet on the designer's site, it is in fact walnut.

Google has cool feature allowing one to paste a url to an image, or upload an image, which is then searched out. Check this out, using the image from the original post: 
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZisxs5hMaBWNkCLMHvDqHAz28ZRSdZaFMbBoUzYtAQmj3K8vHzncjhHcHvUdX5tmlitfe-jl6RyoA_1dVz_1HmFQrKEi2g7NQMmDhI_16L0lJJSlOeBB1sce-LHpCG-TIuHIyrZA7LSaWbIodElrhXBWO3PGbhhAnqHJrWMO63LwdsYpNMILWaCT4-oTbRbs4Y0eg96afuQ1uvDYVp9XyMn-GVB-Nw2UPQMYRg-sdRPJUKOEVZOS9a1wJKVWx8tojBHTSDDYYa_10fwrtqSgXMB66jMKHIhHbNkle7t9gV4Rep5nN2NjQvSuCeoItS24gw_12un19AYoOZLGyW0SL-eA2oNuh8a8Aj0Z6Do5LOGoIaIKt_13-bBIkVkWDbKteH_1B00XaBfIEZrWF2uiTQNGdIdbXZhiDgnVnSQzE9ej53_1HIPXIh8qtyrblsoHtsjTt61u1nV_1GhlfJ6cYYIlvbSDFon6U19ox0CMA2lfuqC7epp1lK6w0QMV1sLID1g_1PJECcyqfVngDbOKfdG81SfrOMZH6RltZSXE8f664sM05oKYuMXqa-XCBCu0TQzM_1-MD-joKQkeh20TAWmup6zCMm8ocILWCXNELxJ3GCx-UJkeYnkvQRCsDN0c4uTMtMb0fHdDHKfoVgvsibFD0D4y74qmyB-G12ZjBnBxjEgPM6Z3LssRGlXtOfCekFrcnjen9pqm623VRiYBpp_18XwT90MAej5R74IImGxLBG8994L5xLOSUN8STqiAeolByTxtGkR3tKXRj_1GRmbc3O6BFSNyHzzhJ2cmVa-uT3e3inTetPNpYNZlNRbyx73A_1uo88brHP2QrUZwGu5DGvWlv_11cybMW3ebOzJD0sqiAKwJwwvEy31HMFh7IBRyL6w0FzMLLSx2xLZlyILVtOpKPC2j7HrI9z1PvPT68CLveKUcCF5bOot5f1ZEn4_17rAD5Y7FoOnaQRPNAr0HhjsRuQF-UsBOExG2fsb63zAdtW4aDNaCiOu70rSkZ2Fe3in5PzvP4cwYBRXjYyXmXVa4ZTptwIeRZuw23jJhda4NHmCIuCTwcoKi-0xAYNRGk7HtEhZVr3_1zIkSSuxob&btnG=Search&hl=en&safe=active&tbo=d&bih=911&biw=1680


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

I'll work with the clients and see what wood type they would like to see and go with a veneer….YIKES! I'm a veneer virgin so we'll see how it goes.

Barry - I apologize if I got your hackles up with my original post, it wasn't my intent.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Don,

None necessary. Sorry if I misunderstood your original post.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Maintaining the appearance of that design is impossible to do in solid wood. Plus, engineering the slot is a challenge. Veneer over 3/4" baltic birch is the only way.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

You could use mdf but it would be nice to have half a sheet of BB ply left over for jig making etc


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Just going through the Lee Valley site looking at veneer types…..


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmm, chatted with clients and they want it made from solid wood. Not in love with the veneer idea.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

From the designer's website…
constructed from high-quality veneered substrate that also enables entry-level pricing
I think they are telling us it is sheet stock with veneer.

It would look nice with frame and panel sides and floating top; or solid panels joined with box joints.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

Throughout my career this is how the conversation goes, "I found this great table at such and such store, can you make it cheeper?" My answer has always been, "I can't buy the materials for that price, no." Your guy said, "I know it's going to be expensive, just let me know…" Charge him for it. In my experience, if you charge less than what you can get, your next job or referral from this customer will pay less than what it's worth.
I've said this many times, pricing has no reality. In custom woodworking you should get what the market allows, in this case it obviously allows for $1400. The company that is selling this peice has spent a lot of time and money on figuring out what it's worth, you shouldn't get any less. Believe me when I tell you that you will work a lot harder on this table than the factory that made the original and you should be paid for your expertise.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Where's my 'Like' button when I need it??

Thanks everyone for their posts. I've enjoyed reading all of them thus far.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Jonathan's design could be executed with GOOD walnut plywood.

Barring that…

We have an excellent local veneer company, Berkshire, that ships. At Steve Latta's suggestion, I've also dealt personally with B&B Rare Woods.

If you show Dave at B&B what you want to do, he'd probably find you what you need.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

You gonna glue those, Jonathan?


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

The design could easily be pocket screwed or glue-blocked from inside.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Pocket screws won't work because of the beveled edges. Glue blocks wouldn't work because you still have the same problems with wood movement.

The moment there is expansion across the grain, it blows out all the mitered seams. You couldn't even make this design work with dowels or fasteners directly through the sides.

The least amount of expansion will take the sides out of alignment, There is zero room for error when beveling edges like that.

My $.02.

EDIT: I see Barry is talking veneer-covered plywood. Lots of possibilities that way. But if you do that route, you wouldn't need to bevel any edges.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

I was thinking along the lines of veneered plywood with the blocks and screws.

You could also zip a spline inside each corner, or build the box with screws or nails (gasp! ;^)) from the outside, and apply the veneer last.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

BTW, the scenario here is that you build this table out of solid wood exactly as designed. You get $1400 for it. You get a call in 4 months because all the beveled edges are splitting and you have to figure out a repair, which you can't do. You give a refund…or get sued.

That's not something that a businessman should do. You have to be careful when making promises just because you want the job so badly.

It's also why they invent man-made materials and veneers.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

The dimensions are 12" X 16". This makes the diagonal 20". Find a tree with diameter at least 20" and you won't have to make any joints. It will be SOLID wood - about 65 lbs if made of black walnut. Just cut the trunk to the desired dimensions and hack out the slot!


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## jap (Oct 10, 2012)

how many board feet in that? -chuckv


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## DS (Oct 10, 2011)

Pre-assemble and pre-finish the interior shelf components. Glue and screw a plywood box. Use Bondo filler to hide the screws. Veneer the outside. Finish - Lovely table.

About $375 in time/materials.

BTW the RETAIL markup for this is 100%. The wholesale markup is about 60%

$375 X 1.6 = $600
$600 X 2.0 = $1200

Anyone know the conversion to Canadian from USD?

It's in the ballpark I suspect.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Canadian dollar is $0.9998 to USD so par.

I told the clients about wood movement causing joints to open up or splitting and he said he would prefer solid over veneered….splits and cracks would add character.

I'm not certain they know what a veneer is…
"I'm just thinking if someone dropped something sharp/heavy on it and it chips, I'd rather have it solid wood to maintain that "authentic" look, rather than have the veneer chip off"


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

If you re-engineer this table for solid wood, you're going to need to make changes to the top, possibly to include an expansion gap all around the panel.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

jap - It looks like about 22 1/3 bf. I would round up to 25.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

what about re-designing the top so it 'floats' above the main body?


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Anything that would eliminate the trapped top would work.

But it would also substantially change the ultra-clean look.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Jon,

I agree… I'm guessing the makers of the original are pushing "solid wood" to include void-free baltic birch ply.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

David Marks, check him out in Wikipedia, is a wood artist and built many items with veneer for the exact reason of keeping the good wood for other projects. One table he built used a ply core and a resawn exotic wood for the veneer on both sides saving enough wood for a couple more projects! His veneer was 1/16" thick!


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

This is interesting, well it is if you're a total wood geek and haven't got a life…










I just cannot see how this could be constructed from anything other than a man-made board.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Truth in advertising - my oldest son bought a cuckoo clock from Sears several years ago for his mom. When I looked at it I was disgusted at the quality of it. Checked on the Sears site and surprise…it was made from real wood!

I emailed Sears, told them I was a wood worker and was appalled at them trying to pass this crap off as real wood. I told them they should either pull the product or put some truth into it. They changed the description to 'cherry finish' and eventually pulled the product.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Cool chart, Renners. Yep, rule of thumb, 1% change in size for ever 4% change in moisture content (MC) for flat sawn stock. That's nearly 1/8" movement on a 12" board, depending on species. The figures are complex for individual species and types of cuts but it can be accurately predicted.

@Jonathan - A 40% change in relative humidity equals a 6% change in MC. Finished wood delays the movement, but doesn't prevent it. Finishes aren't vapor barriers…the wood will acclimatize to the humidity.


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

Jonathan, I am not at all surprised at the figure for hard maple - there were instances of dance hall walls being pushed apart by maple floors here in Ireland. I was trying to find the movement for basswood which is amongst the more stable varieties, but alas, to no avail.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Done in solid wood this way of laying it out would have some
stability. Arrows indicate grain direction.


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## OggieOglethorpe (Aug 15, 2012)

Am I the only one who has a "season" board?

It's a furniture grade board that you dimension to a specific width, say 12", and write the date on it. Every so often, say monthly, you measure it again and write the width, temperature, and RH. If you compare the board to where you are in the seasons, you predict where the properly dried board in your hand is headed, regardless of species.


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## oldnovice (Mar 7, 2009)

Back in the 1960's my dad bought a very expensive stereo console, they were in at the time, and when he didn't want it anymore, it was a vacuum tube type, he said I could have it for whatever. I saved the record changer, threw away the electronics, and salvaged the wood which, except for the hinged top, *was all veneer*. I still have some of that and it is still *"flat as a board"*!

I doubt that would be the case if this was solid wood!


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

I must be the only person, but I see the problem as you stealing someone's design. the product is already made and you want to copy it. 
make your client something else.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Junior - you must be the only person who has posted without reading the whole thread….and then posting a ridiculous opinion.

Go back, read and try again….


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## MNgary (Oct 13, 2011)

Don, is there a door on the front plane? I see the front plane is not flat. Also, it looks like there is a recessed platform or island base to give the piece a floating effect or look.


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## Arron (Nov 10, 2012)

Clearly the client is attracted to the clean linear design (as am I) and the only reliable but uncomplicated way Don can deliver this is with veneer. Still, there is some validity to his reservations about using veneer. 
Firstly, if he hasnt used veneer much then its a bit daunting to build skills on an important project. After 10 (intermittent) years of working with veneer it still amazes me how many ways there are to fail with it. 
Secondly, veneer work can look first rate but equally often it can look pretty shabby. If you just veneer over a substrate, then as soon as someone gives a solid knock to one of those razor sharp arises then a little chip will come off exposing the substrate underneath making the job look mighty second rate. Not fair to your client.

So what I would do is:
1. Get some high quality ply. Cut it to the size of the external pieces less about 10mm all round. There are 5 external pieces. Cut some solid walnut strips about 20mm thick, same width as the substrate, and glue them around the substrate. You should probably also insert a piece where the cutouts will be (the slot for ipad). 
2. Take these to a professional veneering outfit. I use an architectural panel maker - I take him my pieces and he supplies and presses the veneer, right over both substrate and the timber edging. Proper professional pressing - zero chance of lifting, and he can supply and press for less then I can purchase the veneer. I press small things myself but when I want zero-risk I take it to him.
3. When I get them to my workshop, I trim them to the final size (in this case removing about 10mm of the solid timber all round, and leaving about 10mm of solid timber). Remember the solid timber is fully covered by the veneer, its just there in case of damage to the corners or arises.
4. Then I proceed to work the pieces exactly as I would solid wood. In this case I'd bevel the edges, cutting away some of the solid walnut around the edge but not all of it.

Advantage of doing it this way:
the pressing is done professionally - no chance of lifting.
Sooner or later someone will knock the edge, the walnut veneer may chip, but it will expose the walnut solid timber undeneath and it wont be noticeable. 
Wood movement is not significant in the substrate and not significant in the tiny bit of solid timber that remains.
If there is going to be a fault with the veneer, 9 times out of 10 it will be on the very edge, so the fact that we cut away 10mm or so of the veneer edge is a good thing.

what I'd do
cheers
Arron


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

you know, i read the thread the first time, then read it again when i saw your response. you really believe that copying something in a furniture store is not stealing a design? someone is hoping that they sell something before xmas, and you are all to happy to undercut and take their potential clients. even if a client approaches you with a picture of another persons piece and you build the same thing a different way is it still not your creation. this is ethics, and if you don't see the problem… fill in the blank. 
you have a business, a website anyway. i hope you bought a license. did you ask the designer before you re-posted his work? how would you feel if someone were doing this to you? a whole thread how best to copy something he is trying to sell. I understand you are using this as a starting point and intend to modify it somewhat, so why post his work at all? do a drawing for the client.


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Junior…The jewelry chest project you posted 813 days ago looks just like one I saw at Macy's last week. Are you sure you're not living in a glass house and throwing rocks? Nyuk,nyuk


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

That design isn't unique, Junior. I'm sure somebody built one just like it over the last 5000 years.

Heck, I built something similar covered in Formica back in the 80s.


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

well, that is the problem if you post something online, anyone who doesn't care about integrity of design can copy it. it must be a good design if Macy's is copying me, but it is also why i stopped posting my creations online over two years ago, it cheapens the work my clients pay for if a pseudo facsimile is available from overseas a few weeks later.
LOl, you know people can do what they want. it is up to craftsman to be ethical. and if your doing it for a living, do what you need to eat. I guess the only way to protect a design is to never show it to anyone.

My problem is really with posting someone else's work, and asking how best to duplicate it for cheaper. this is the essence of what is written regardless of how it came about.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Ya know Junior, on this day where we honour men and women who fought and died to protect our freedoms, I'll concede to your high and mighty opinion. It must be a wonderful view from your throne in your glass house. Enjoy it. Be very careful what you post in the future though as you've just opened yourself up to ridicule, accusations and criticism.

It must be amazing for you to be able to create unique, one of a kind, never been seen before items. I envy your creativity. I am in awe at your code of ethics where you can turn clients away who come to you with an idea, "a side table with a slot for a book or magazine" and you immediately recognize that the obscure idea you are being presented with has been done before. You tell them to go do their research and buy it from a store and not to darken your doorstep until they come back with a completely original idea. The nerve of them!

I made a corner tv stand once and a few weeks back saw a very similar, almost exact copy in a catalogue. I resisted getting in touch with the company as they are just trying to make a living to try to eat.

I can only beg your forgiveness and try to liken myself after you and wait for that original idea to pop into my head so I can get back into the workshop without fear of a project having ever, ever been done, attempted to be done or even thought of before.

Grow up Junior and get over yourself!


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## RibsBrisket4me (Jul 17, 2011)

Don, just added you to by buddy list. Please post your finished project as I'm sure many of us would love to see your spin on this.

Looks like a really cool, contemporary project.


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## JuniorJoiner (Dec 24, 2008)

you know, I hope you spend a few months someday prototyping and working the bugs out of a design trying to get it perfect. and know how much effort it takes.

It is quite disgusting you would bring up my service on remembrance day. but hey, if i had not done deployments and put myself in harms way, I probably wouldn't be a woodworker now. my fault for getting hurt i guess.

anyway, war over. I just ask you post your own work and not others.

best regards


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Again Junior, you assume too much.

You assumed that I read your bio before posting and took a shot at you being a vet…WRONG!

I too did my time in the military and this day is very dear to me.

Before I wrap this up as you've taken it to a ridiculous point, let me say this. The client came to me with an idea. Side table with a slot in it for a book. I couldn't figure out what he wanted so I asked him to come to my office and draw something for me. I did an online search and found with the drawing in front of me, what I thought he was looking for, sent him the picture and it was exactly what he wanted. Is that the point where I was supposed to say I can't do it or should I have turned him down from the start for fear that it HAD been done??

Don - over and out.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

@Junior - Please do yourself a favor and do some study with regard to ethical and legal issues regarding copyright laws, trademark infringement, and intellectual property before you come on another person's thread and insult his integrity.

There is nothing regarding the picture, design, plan or execution of that table that is protected by any of the aforementioned laws. We post pictures all the time attempting to replicate aspects or complete parts of a given work.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

you know, I hope you spend a few months someday prototyping and working the bugs out of a design trying to get it perfect. and know how much effort it takes. - JuniorJoiner

I'm going to have to agree with JJ here. Everyone makes the excuse, "It's been done 1,000 billion times already" or "It's not a big deal." Well it is. You could be taking food from the mouths of others. I'm guessing some of you think that's okay too. I'm sure you wouldn't though if you were on the receiving end.

Whether or not it has a copyright, patent, etc., the least you could do is give credit to the guy/gal you ripped it off from and ask their permission to do so. I usually have no problem letting people use things for free; but if you steal it from me and then claim it's your's, that's a different story.

Although, there is some wiggle room if you significantly change the design.


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## Viktor (Jan 15, 2009)

If the client wants solid wood, sure you can make it solid as a tall end grain butcher block. 
http://kitchencartdeals.co.cc/new-john-boos-pca2-24-by-18-by-10-inch-walnut-butcher-block-with-black-legs/

I've seen perfectly stable blocks 3 times the size. Book-match the sides (the original has only 3" wide strips). Sealed and polished walnut end grain looks awesome. You can come up with a modern looking pattern.
http://www.custommade.com/walnut-end-grain-chopping-boards-butcher-block-isl/by/greenriverwoods/

That will also take care of copyright issues - significant change in design.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Furniture designs can't be copyrighted and cube tables have been around for a long time. Junior your rage is misplaced.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Junior and I have made out peace in PM's so I'm good there and so is he. This posting has sadly gone off on a tangent.

Again, the client came to me with the vague idea of a side table with a nook/shelf cut in it to fit a book. I found the picture online and posted it, astonished that people will pay enormous amounts of money for eclectic/modern furniture when it's done by a machine and only veneer over a substrate. Even with everything being said on here and after doing this for 7 or 8 years, it still amazes me.

Maybe the bottom line here is I shouldn't post on here and expect people to think like I do over mass produced furniture commanding such a high price. I didn't say I was going to copy it, I said the final product will look like the picture, meaning this is what the client is looking for,m the idea anyways.

There are thousands of projects that have been posted on this site and other sites like this and you would have to be pretty naive to believe that they are all original ideas. I can't comment on your projects Doss because you haven't posted any yet. Maybe someday you will if you can find the time. I promise not to copy any of them though


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## RussellAP (Feb 21, 2012)

1400$ for a particle board box. It's not even that attractive due to the perfection of that bookmatch grain. No wood is that perfect. Hell, I could make that out of Zebrawood 4/4 and still charged half that.


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

There's a difference between using another persons design as inspiration and making a one-off piece and another to pump out a thousand replicas in a factory.

Good luck with the project and post some pictures when you are done.

To Don, Junior, and every other JL that protects our freedom, thank you!


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Doss: To whom would you give credit in this case? Should we give credit to the Greenes each time we make a table with some of their design "innovations," which in themselves aren't innovative of anything. Everything is derivative. But your point is well taken in that IF you are building something after a known piece by some guy like us, then it would be nice to pay homage to it some way. But I don't see that as necessary here. Again, there is nothing unique there.

Like I said before, I built something similar in the 80s, awful thing that it was. I won't be suing anybody with regard to intellectual property.


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## Earlextech (Jan 13, 2011)

This exact style was available in the 80's but it was usually made of formica and a piece of glass would slip into that opening and protrude enough to make another table surface. Nothing original there.


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## oldworld124 (Mar 2, 2008)

You are most likely going to have expansion and contraction problems using solid wood. Veneers have been used for centuries. You can book match all of the sides using a flitch of veneers. I have been veneering for many years. Take a look at my projects and you will see a kitchen I did some years ago out of veneers. It opens up a whole new world of possibilities.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow, Don and Junior, I'm glad you guys made your peace. I come to this forum to see and read what people do and perhaps learn. A lot of my projects never leave the computer cad phase but are often revisited when I learn something new. But I never did this to either make or supplement my income so perhaps I really don't understand the dynamics of this thread. I posted early in this thread amazed that a veneered cube with a simple slot is valued so highly. I guess it's mostly an art thing but does not execution of design and craftsmanship also play a part? I would love to see the final result of this build to see just how Don manages to combine old world materials and craftsmanship with the new 'eclectic/modern furniture' look.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

LOL, yep, Formica, Sam. I made mine, an end table, to match a coffee table I made for my first apartment. Both were two-tone, rose and mauve, over 3/4" plywood. I remember accidentally scoring the laminates at the time because I didn't understand the concept of a bearing guide on the router bit, so I just trimmed with a wooden guide. It wasn't like I had the Internet to research on how to do it correctly. In fact, that 1/4" straight bit was the first router bit I ever bought myself, even though my dad had one that I could have borrowed.

My "slot" was wider and lower down, mimicking a shelf about 12 inches off the ground. Concept was the same. Didn't use glass on mine, however. That would have been scary.

I'm so glad we are no longer in the 80s. How I was so proud of my furniture and my clothing throughout that era will be an eternal mystery to me.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Luckily this project isn't expected before Christmas so there's no pressure on me to push this through, lots of time to bounce ideas around with the client. If, perchance, the client wants exactly what is pictured here then I give a shout out to the designer (whoever the heck that is) and perhaps add a line or two to pay homage to anyone who may have done this before or had even thought of doing it, just in case I offend 

Peace to all my LJ brothers and sisters….


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Any pics of you in a mullet and a leisure suit Jay?? LOL


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Lots of posts on how this is just a simple veneered cube. It is certainly easier than a solid wood construction, but just because it is veneered doesn't make it easy. Like Arron said above, there are a ton of ways to screw it up.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

"....there are a ton of ways to screw it up."

I intend on investing some time in sampling a few of those ways, just to let you know 

Lot of great info here that I intend to use.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

LOL, Don. Here ya go, straight from Facebook…










...and, on the right with a blazer…there is a slight mullet you can't see…


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

I can't comment on your projects Doss because you haven't posted any yet. Maybe someday you will if you can find the time. I promise not to copy any of them though  - Don

HA! That's maybe why I don't post them up. J/k I doubt anything I make out of wood is copy worthy.

Cosmic, you don't have to credit the original creator in this instance… just the person you're copying.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that "nothing is new under the sun." But, if you're directly copying someone else who doesn't say you can do so, I think that reflects on your ethics and general character some even if it's not breaking the law.

If you truly build something on your own and then find another example that is exactly like your's, that's not your fault.

I'm just presenting the case from the other side. Everyone can do as they please of course.

Also Cosmic, you have a striking resemblance to 1980's Corey Haim. LOL


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

LOL, never heard that, Doss…RIP, Corey.

My point is that you don't often know who the original designer is. Many things are just production pieces that somebody sells in a particular product line. If I knew the actual designer, then I'd probably express that, but only if I am borrowing major elements from the design…or copying it directly.

In other words, most of these designs are "works for hire," where no credit should be given to the original designer because he/she doesn't own the design anyway. This same reason is why, IIRC, the dude who created Post-it notes is probably just as rich as I am…and I'm a school teacher.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Arthur Fry and Spencer Silver (co-inventors of the Post-It note) are probably fairly rich considering they were working for 3M at the time and heavily awarded for their invention. That doesn't mean they got a lion's share of the profits that Post-It notes generated, but they were probably fairly well-compensated for their careers at 3M.

I understand your point and why it's not always possible to credit people, but I think an effort should be made to do so whenever possible. I have learned that people think it is dead simple to design things and make them appeal to a wide range of people. I am assured though that this not the case.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, there is certainly a symbiotic relationship there, but those guys don't get paid like they would had they owned the invention.


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, there's another way to look at it, those guys probably would've never met each other or created the products possible for the invention had 3M not been involved. It's a common issue I deal with as a software engineer. It's easy for us to sit back and say, "Well, I built it on my own. Why don't I get most of the profits?"

Simple, the tools I use and the relationships and knowledge I gain on the job all helped make that possible. The company's investment in me made that happen. It's not always the case, but it is very often.

You could negotiate a lot of that up front in your contract with your employer, but sometimes it's more hassle than it's worth.

Look at us… we're wandering.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Yes, can we get back to the point of berating me for stealing the design please :0) LOL


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

I have nothing meaningful to add here except that I would really like to make a veneered project. I look at some of the stuff a wasted a 4/4 board of really beautiful, unique (for the species) grain in when I could have resawed quite a few decent veneer pieces out if and it pissed me off a bit. While to bookmatch grain and get perfect grain orientation, I've found I really can't without veneering. I just don't have access to curly or figured 8/4+ stock. If anyone has some tips on both resawing veneer and applying to a substrate (especially table legs and table tops), that would be awesome.

As for the cute, I think it's a pretty neat design. My feeling is making one copy isn't "stealing". You friends aren't going to pay 1400.00 for it even if you can't make it cheaper for them. When you mass produce someone else's design in a factory to undercut the price, that is a different story


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

good luck making this for under $1000. I own the co. that produces this. Yes, this one is veneer but we now produce this with hardwood sides and a inlayed veneer top. Wish I had a pic of it but we're too busy producing our high end products.

Jonathan, good luck gluing that together with those bevels.

Don, go ahead and knock it off but you're only hurting the industry

Earlextech and others, thank you for having integrity and a special thanks to Craig who brought this to our attention


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

What a joke…..pathetic.

Too busy to send a pic of the newer and improveder product but have lots of time to join Lumberjocks and pump out a post )

Pfffffffffffffffffffft


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

hi Don, we ship all over the world, what do you do?


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Well gee 'Izm' I've shipped to parts of Canada, Australia, the States and England…not bad for one guy working out of a garage 

Whatever….


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

Jonathon, not saying it can't be done and we have also done this. but if you're gluing that inside bevel at the same time as putting all your sides together you're going to have a lot of clamps on this piece (or tape but fairly tough taping down this many bevels)
Besides, we don't make this out of veneer any longer. It has solid sides with a veneer top.
We're not concerned with people knocking our stuff out anyways. My time is worth $100/hr and if you can design, build, & finish this piece in under 8 hrs good on you.
Can't stop people from copying your work, you can only do it better. We had a guy come up to us at the IDS West design show and he had knocked off our Visualizm cabinet. Turned out quite poorly and he didn't make any money and his client wasn't happy.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

forgot to mention…I'm a hobbyist so this is after work and weekends for me.

As far as 'hurting the industry', every woodworker hurts the industry. Every time someone comes to us to make them something instead of buying it at the store, it 'hurts the industry'.

It's called competition and last time I checked, it's still legal to make something and sell it, no matter what it is.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow, and I thought I had a way with words, but Mr Izm has me beat hands down. I'd try and make a couple myself but the whole cube with a slot in it thing is not worth the plywood, veneer, and glue. Besides If Jonathan needs luck to glue the bevels after gluing those great looking speaker boxes, well must be only Mr Izm is the only one who can do it.
I guess he took offense because people commented that the asking price seemed a little high. Two wrongs don't make a right--but three lefts do.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

How about we all just get along? Us craftsmen keep the big guys in check and force pieces that command high prices be solidly and expertly manufactured. Designers like Izm give us woodworkers ideas and inspiration - and sometimes (like in this case) customers.

It's s symbiotic relationship that will constantly evolve.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

and I'm agreeing w/ you Jonathon. Everything can be done, just takes time and thought. Woodworking is not magic


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

seriously, what do you people think you're time is worth? You're never going to amount to anything copying designs and undercutting your competition.
This client was not going to pay $1400 for the table from a store (which of course marked it up) so they weren't our client anyways. 
Don, knock yourself out. 
casual1carpenter, I don't even know what planet you're on


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

btw Don, I do like your backgammon boards


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

Seriously guys, this poo flinging will get us(LJs) nowhere. You have your ideas and permission from the guy… I even as a noob don't see anything too terribly complicated, but whatever. I look forward to the final product of your work.


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Izm, don't come to a woodworking hobbiest forum and be a complete douche. My time is worth absolutely nothing. It's what I do for fun and I get tons of enjoyment out of it. I have sold some stuff, buy generally at the price of materials and a little extra to cover incidentals and maybe put some cash in the tool budget.

If you want me to come to your place and install a Cisco Unified communications Server, that is a different story and my company will bill me out at around 1,250/hour. Most people here aren't in it for the money. This site gets a lot of google search traffic. The owner of the company spouting off like an asshole is generally something consumers from upon.


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

IZM, a guy named "Craig" contacted you today about this thread. I don't know anything about you or your business but after reading this thread you had one of three paths to take. 1) do nothing. 3) Make a comment (even if not genuine) about how you appreciate how your work inspired another 3) Do what you did.

In the end the cube is still going to be made, regardless, but which scenario makes you and your business look better? Maybe you missed out on a few sales if you handled it differently??? Just saying….


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Douche is one of my favorite words in this context. So refreshing!


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## Swyftfeet (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't really think it makes a difference to his bottom line, if he can command 1000+ for a wooden cube with a slot, more power to him. He is charging for "art" no matter how derivitive you may find it. 
He's not making cedar lawn furniture at 1 dollar less than the next guy at the craft show. He clearly wants to be successful. I can see his point, and can understand why he might be a bit miffed. I may not agree with his delivery, but so what. He gave his blessing on don doing a one off, an even complimented his other work.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Izm - Let me know if I can make a backgammon board for you.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm certainly not worried about losing any of our clients over comments made on a hobbiest site nor do I think any of my comments would be offensive to anyone looking for contemporary furniture. 
Douche? What's douchey about defending our company & our designs. Never said we invented the box or even implied that Don was stealing anything. What did I "spout off" about?
Seems to me that some of you "hobbiests" are being overly defensive about this
The only person I may have offended would have been Jonathon and I believe I addressed that post.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

Don, would have definitely orderd one for my dad but he passed away this Aug. Had plans to make one but as you know they take time and planning


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## Doss (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow, I can't believe the level of discourse here. Seriously… this is how we handle a conversation?

Everyone has their points, but this could've been handled a lot better.

Yes, making this for under $1000 on a production level is not very easy. Yes, you can make this as a one off or limited run for under $1000.

Gluing the bevels up well and having a durable product isn't easy. Can some of us do it? Yes. Can some of us do it well? Yes.

Competition is good for the industry. It keeps everyone in check. But, copying and undercutting isn't good for anyone in the end. There is a big difference between competition and copying.

Everyone seems to be a little edgy over this and, as a result, are coming in a little too heated. I'm still amazed that Lumberjocks members reacted in the way that they did here. Yes, Izm did come off a little pompous to enter the conversation, but let up on him/her a little bit. I mean, he/she could've gotten mad and threatened to sue people for using their photo (is it their's?) and whatever else. It could've been worse. Whether that would've worked is debatable, but it's the point of it all.

Again, I think a lot of this boils down to how a person feels when their work has been copied. Some of us like it. Some of us don't care. Some of us get angry. All of it is justifiable at some level.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

ChuckC, I think you missed one #4. Honest The man or men, I believe the web page shows two young gentlemen as the inspiration and proprietors. They invented and designed and developed their lineizm of products. They have their very own studio sales store front, a large equipped shop and inventory, staff members to pay, and a profit to make. People pay their price and are proud of owning a work of art.

By the way Mr Izm, I noticed you came down off that heavenly artist mountain and started talking a bit nicer after you read my post. On earth were I live three lefts do in fact make a right, perhaps not in Canada as I imagine you have different traffic laws up there.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

The douchey part is that you took an unoriginal idea that you no doubt copied from somebody(s) else, acted as if you have exclusivity to the "design," sell that chinese (or otherwise outsourced) piece of crap for $1400 to people who don't know any better, use the pronoun "we" as if you sweated real hard in making it yourself, and then had the nerve to say that a hobbyist isnt doing the industry any good if he builds one and sells it himself.

To top it off, you are oblivious to the fundamental hallmark of douchery, and that is its practitioners are blind to their actions and try to act above it all, like the elitist douches that they are.

Did I miss anything?


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

casual1carpenter, yeah. I was a little heated at first as I read all 94 posts and hadn't had a chance to process all the comments. As I said, we're not worried about ppl using pieces for inspiration or making something similar for a customer. As we all know you can't copyright or patent furniture designs. What gets me miffed is when ppl think they can smack something together in an hour or two and think it's going to look the same.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah cosmicsniper, comprehension. Maybe you should go back and while you read the words on the post think about them and what they mean.


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## ChuckC (May 13, 2010)

IZM, missed opportunities can happen anywhere, even a "hobbiest site". LJ's is not immune to Google searches.

I stand by my opinion that you should have been the bigger man. Continue to make your cubes, but sometimes it's better to think outside the box…


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## lumberjoe (Mar 30, 2012)

Doss, Izm has every right to be upset about people copying work. I think that table is fantastic. As someone who struggles with design, I can really appreciate the creativity and work that went into it. What I don't like is comments like
Wish I had a pic of it but we're too busy producing our high end products.

We're not concerned with people knocking our stuff out anyways. My time is worth $100/hr and if you can design, build, & finish this piece in under 8 hrs good on you.

seriously, what do you people think you're time is worth? You're never going to amount to anything copying designs and undercutting your competition

I don't like sarcastic tones and people with an air of superiority. That creates a confrontational tone, Also to your point (and as Izm correctly alluded to) no one here is competition. We aren't going to make a fortune from one-off repros. If you factor in time, even at the 1,400.00 price you aren't going to be making a ton of profit (I wouldn't be anyway). Go into mass production, and there is definitely a problem and something to be seriously upset about. The client had no intention of plunking down 1400.00 on a table either, so Izm never lost anything. I'm sure most of Izm's customers want an original as they are buying art, not just furniture. part of buying art is being able to prove it is authentic.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

valid points lumberjoe


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

also, just did some field research. Casual1carpenter is correct. If you execute three 90 degree turns to the left you have in fact completed a right.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Who is this mysterious, stool pigeon 'Craig' anyways? Lol…..

Izm - I apologize for posting the picture of the side table on here. I was using it as an example of what my client is looking for, not an exact replica of what I will be making.

How about we all put our guns away and talk about our feelings )


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

I have sniper in my name…I'm supposed to put away my guns, Don? LOL!

No hard feelings.


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

None at all….lively conversation, difference of opinion, some vague info and the ever popular, jumping to conclusions


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## renners (Apr 9, 2010)

What about if you make that table but put a hole in it big enough for a can of Pringles? It's a winner!


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## DonOtt (Jul 10, 2009)

Hmmmmmm, now ya got me thinking….


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

can of Pringles? You could roll up the rockler catalog an stick it in the pringles hole, if they still send you one. I'd go for that. I still think for those bucks it should do more than hold a lamp and have a slot for your I pod. Then I could never figure out a lot of "art" but to each their own. I might even consider a false back, kind of a hidden compartment that were the rage here a month or two back, to hide the cable modem, router, etc. the necessities of modern life that you don't need out in the open.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Remote control, boys, remote controls…all 5 of them.


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## casual1carpenter (Aug 16, 2011)

dimensions being 12" x 16" x 16 1/2" I think and the slot being 75% x 75% neighborhood I don't think your boys would fit. Still those dimensions off the web page don't seem right, the piece appears square and the height greater than the tops dimension slightly. If the slot negative space is approx 12" then the slot height looks to be about 2" or less. If a remote somehow got pushed towards the inside corner I'd never get my fat hand in there. Now my ex could stick her hand in the pringles can down to the bottom and grab chips with her finger tips.


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## wormil (Nov 19, 2011)

Izm is a sock puppet and you're all being trolled.


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## Izm (Nov 12, 2012)

No apology necessary Don for posting the photo. This was a fun conversation


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