# SAD NEWS. DELTA HAS MOVED THERE UNISAW OVERSEAS. HELLO TAIWAN !



## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hi all. Hope everyone is enjoying there woodworking. Have not posted for a long time. Running a woodworking business takes 99% of your time. Anyways I thought I would share with you some sad news. Delta Power Equipment has moved there once American made UNISAW to taiwan. Just got off the phone speaking with a Delta tech rep and he informed me that they ended up moving the saw manufacturing to taiwan. My understanding of what he told me is people were not buying the saw because of the price. The saws were not selling and the market fell for the american made unit. One thing I will mention, when the saw was made here in USA (most of it ) it was around 3,000 for the base unit of 3hp 36" fence. I'm seeing some companies selling it for over $ 3,000 +. The question I ask is by going to taiwan shouldn't the price go down ?

As we all know the Asian makers can make quality and effect machines. The rep told me that they moved the equipment they used to make it here in South Carolina over to taiwan so the quality of the UNISAW should be up to the former USA made one. I think it comes down to morals of equipment LOL.. If theres any.. Delta was really the last company to make a woodworking machine here. I don't know about you guys, but I like to see a USA made stamp on machinery. It gives me some sort of pride that its american made, made by americans and was made right on our land, with our materials and our expertise.

I don't know when Delta switched the country of origin , if this old news to you guys, sorry. I just learned of it today.

What do all think of the change, bad, good ect..

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR
FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## timbertailor (Jul 2, 2014)

How are American companies supposed to compete if they are not on a level playing field?

If you do not have to pay health insurance, workman's comp, overtime, obey EPA and OSHA and every other industry standard, minimum wage, taxes, child labor laws, EOE, etc.

Our government sold out to the Asian country's decades ago.

Leaves few options for American business men.

Combine that with the "McDonald's Syndrome" of a vast number of Americans, and you have a country that does not want quality, just quantity, convenience, and a cheap price.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

I believe the change was made when Chang Type bought Delta from Stanley and moved it to Anderson in 2011. The operation they set up in S. Carolina was not a manufacturing operation but an assembly operation (the majority of employees - somewhere between 20 and 40 - are actually executive, administrative and marketing), assembling parts floated to S. Carolina from Taiwan.


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## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

timbertailor. Great point. Could not agree with you more. I get why they went overseas. Just sad to see, but not new news. It has happen to pretty much every tool maker.

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR
FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Taiwan has a much better track record than Chinese factories. Made in USA really doesn't mean much anymore. When they were built here 50+ years ago, they were built using skilled machinists. Over the years, skilled workers gave way to automation, so all we can really say is "assembled" by American workers. Automatic machines work the same in Taiwan and the USA. I expect the Taiwanese version to be no worse than the USA version.


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## robscastle (May 13, 2012)

Well men its not just the USA the trend to "get somebody else to do it" is well entrenched in Australia too.
I seems to me that there is absolutely no interest in growing the country, its all make as much profit as you can while while the going is good.
The CEO do not care the shareholders do not care as they have stripped all the profits out of the business and move on somewhere else to repeat the process.

What we may be eventually be left with is a nation of workers using sophisticated equipment that nobody has the build skills or equipment availaable to repair if and when it breaks down.

Instead we will be subjected to long delays whilst the OEM overseas suppliers send parts, and from experience they would rather sell you a replacement machine than an individual spare part.
Hence fostering the throw away society.

I an not advocating straightening nails in re using them either, but there needs to be a repair replace line where we can repair an item in a cost effective way of doing so and then continue on.

At the moment we have a situation that even attempting to dismantle an item to investigate the repair options that some of the tools required to do the task are cost prohibitive due to their prospective one off use.

Take the humble lawn mower for example, change the plug, blades oil and may be wheel or two.
Anything more than that and its a "dont put that oily dirty machine on my wood working bench thanks!

So off it goes outsourced for repair. Added with the fact…. hey… I do wood work not mechanical work.
Then if we do have the repair skills the shop gets converted from its primary role to that of a mower repair center we get subjected to massive one off item costs to do the job by our local supplier. Would you pay $10 for a fuel filter when you can get one on the net for $2 free delivery?

Where do you think the mower repair center gets their supplies from?


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## fge (Sep 8, 2008)

I agree with the feeling of having a truly made in the US machine. It makes me proud to show off our shop which is mostly US made machinery. In fact, we almost always purchase old American made machinery at auctions on a fairly regular basis.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Chinese workers get about $500 per month plus a ton of benefits from the government. They get things we have to pay for.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> Would you pay $10 for a fuel filter when you can get one on the net for $2 free delivery?
> 
> Where do you think the mower repair center gets their supplies from?
> 
> - robscastle


Robert, are you saying that it's a bad thing when a mower repair center uses the internet to order parts?


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## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hi all thank you for your inputs so far.. It was interesting to see even after Delta was bought by a taiwanese company they still made things here. I guess that ship has sailed. If keep with Delta you can notice they have obsoleted a lot of items. I think there wanting to make them there own machines an not the B&D designed machines. In my opinion Delta still makes quality items. I just bought there 6X89 edge sander. I'm very impressed with it so far… I'm wanting to get the new UNISAW, but first I'm going to call delta and find out which model number corresponds with the American made UNISAW, and hopefully find a company with some old stock. Probably machines not made after dec 2013. I like there style saw, but want it american made.

Thanks, Michael Frey
Portland, OR
FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## freddy1962 (Feb 27, 2014)

I pledge allegiance to the United States of America…


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

Nothing anymore is 100% made in America. Not Ford, not GM, not Delta. It is a universal economy where everyone contributes to the market place. I'm sure this is a good thing overall. I had an old Plymouth with less than 100K miles. It burned a quart of oil every 50 miles. Cars today get 250K+ miles, so not everything has gone to the dogs.


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## Delta356 (Aug 2, 2010)

MrRon. " Good thing over all" Really ? What happened to the Delta employes that made the UNISAW ?. They lost there jobs. It always ends up hurting someone. In Deltas sense, it hurt jobs here in the USA. But like you say in the car industry overall having everyone contribute to it is not bad. I agree with you on that point.

In my opinion this move not only hurt the former Delta employes that made the UNISAW, but it also hurts other companies that were providing parts for the UNISAW, such as the casting companies, the metal companies, ect. 
I know this is not new news, but it just sucks that the last company that held on with a USA made woodworking equipment, had to leave our land… What is done is done…

Cheers, Mike F.
Portland, OR
FREY WOODWORKING INC.


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## joeyinsouthaustin (Sep 22, 2012)

See quote below.


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## diverlloyd (Apr 25, 2013)

Well this is easy enough don't buy the new items from them buy the old stuff.This must be why Norm retired. Just like craftsman tools not made in the usa anymore, check the box before you buy. I think the screw drivers are still made here but if you are going to pay regular usa prices for something made oversees why wouldn't buy a better item for the same price. Like I quit buying craftsman and started buying kobalt mechanic tools. I believe the kobalt is a better tool then the craftsman. I only bought craftsman for it being made in the usa now it's not and I'm buying kobalt, both are made overseas but one is better. It's said that this country was built be the working class and now we are being wiped out to fatten a congressmans pocket. So good job to our government way to look out for yourself and breaking the oath you made to the country. So that's my 2 cents


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## Woodmaster1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I am glad I bought my unisaw before it went acrossed the ocean. If the quality is maintained it will still be a great saw. All of the rest of the table saws are made overseas so the design is what you would be buying.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

American manufacturing is much more important than having a uni saw with made in America on it. Who is going to manufacture our war machines when we go to war with these countries that hate us but manufacture all our stuff. I know it is hopeless but I buy American whenever I can but affording it is often times not possible.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> Who is going to manufacture our war machines when we go to war with these countries that hate us but manufacture all our stuff.


I find it quite sad (and disturbing) that where 'war machines' will be made could play any role in a purchasing decision.

Cheers,
Brad


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## Ger21 (Oct 29, 2009)

I think that your missing the point of his post.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> I think that your missing the point of his post.
> - Ger21


Naw… I think I know exactly what he was saying. I agree that it's a shame that US manufacturing is being lost, but not because of any hypothetical inability to produce weapons.

Cheers,
Brad


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> Chinese workers get about $500 per month plus a ton of benefits from the government. They get things we have to pay for.
> 
> - Knothead62


You so right. They get things other people have to pay for. The Chinese government is like the US government they have no money unless they take it from somebody or print it out of thin air.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

Mr. UNIX, I am sorry I offended you. Unfortunately we have to consider these things in life. I don't like it and I hope we never find ourselves as we were in WW one and two. We had the factories then to convert over to our. Defense in short order. All I am saying is we don't have that anymore. To me that is concerning. Well let's get off this subject after all what does it have to do with woodworking. By the way I am new to the Lumberjock community. I am retired and do woodworking as a hobby. I never know how to classify myself because I am not sure what a beginner, intermediate and higher classification is as it apples to me. People love what I make I give some away and I don't sell it. I just enjoy Woodworking, lathe work and am getting into carving a bit.


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## ohtimberwolf (Dec 17, 2011)

Woodcut1
Glad you chose our site and welcome. The site has a lot to offer and sometimes a lot to have to overlook but most if not all here are here to help others. larry


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## thirdrail (Feb 8, 2011)

Two points:
1) this thread is morphing into Unisaw moving to China. It isn't, at lease according to the original post, it's moving to Taiwan. Manufacturing wages are about 3 times higher than in China, causing a flight of manufacturing from Taiwan to China. Still, wages much lower than here since our system shifts far more cost for "health and welfare" to the purchase price (through taxes on the manufacturer) than on society as a whole through taxes. Somebody pays in the end.
2) Why would anyone buy one of these offshored brand names just for the name after they've moved unless a unique product? Why not look at Grisley or any of the other better imports? Why pay for a name. These days trade names never die, they live on to be sold and resold in hopes that people will remember them as a quality product.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

A few years ago I purchased a DeWalt woodworkers hydrid table saw, mostly because it was made in the US and I wanted to support them and the US economy. Within a few months they discontinued the saw without notice. This made the saw I purchased obsolete. When I bought it I thought at least it will be around forever like much of the Delta old iron is today. I have to agree with Third Rail. These brand name companies no longer stand for what they once did. They claim quality
through years of experience but that experience is no more along with the American laborer. I am toying with replacing the DeWalt and I am looking at brands like Grizzly, many seem to like that product.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

Why do you supposed they left the USA? 
Lower wages?
Less taxes?
Less restrictions? 
Less environmental laws?
We know the transportation expenses to Americans will be more.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

True, I think we need to keep working to try and change what is happening here so our companies can compete and Americans can continue to earn a decent living. I hear American companies can't come back and some have tried but there is no skilled labor here to fill their needs and they still face all you have listed and much more.


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## GeneralDisorder (Sep 24, 2014)

I saw the move to a global economy escalate. Huge tariffs should have been placed on everything imported, but free trade was what we got. Nothing wrong with that but global economy means global wages. Anybody willing to work for 500 a month?

I got my Unisaw free from a cabinet shop I do business with. They bought a Sawstop on the advice from their insurance company.

The system is broke.


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## Clarkie (May 11, 2013)

I was told over a year ago, maybe 2 now, that Delta, Powermatic and one more I can't think of right now were bought by Jet and were being produced in Taiwan. The thing that seems to be a bother is that these American companies have no conscious loyalty to their customers to at least tell them when we are being sold out. The customer service from these companies went into the bucket, and you can see visions of the corporate people skipping down the yellow brick road. I remember a time when a customer service rep would sit for an hour trying to get an answer to the customer's problem. Those days are gone and I fear never going to return. I ride one of the last bikes made in America and have most American made products in my shop, yet from this time forward there is a definite change in getting help if needed from the Taiwan reps.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

American consumers have stated that they would spend more to buy American-made, but their buying habits have proven that the value to them of buying American-made is not as great as the premium that must be paid for American-made goods. In other words the value to them of foreign-made is greater than the value to them of American-made.

The answer is not to slap some artificial tariff on imported goods, the answer is to find a way to make it so American-made goods represent higher value to the American consumer than do foreign-made goods.


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## bbasiaga (Dec 8, 2012)

> Chinese workers get about $500 per month plus a ton of benefits from the government. They get things we have to pay for.
> 
> - Knothead62


I don't claim to be an expert on Chinese government or social programs, but I did spend two weeks in China, most of it in an industrial area. If you saw what the lifestyle of about a billion of the 1.3billion Chinese people is, you'd be less excited about adopting their social programs. The air is thicker than LA in the 70s, families of 5 live in a 400sq ft apartment. Health care clinics are free, but have waits in the months for basic appointments, and years for advanced testing (note, this varies and can be better in certain parts of the country).

They work every day, endless hours, and if they are sick or miss a day are often fired.

Just like here, 1% control all the wealth. Everyone else is poor. Very small middle class, and their middle class doesn't have what ours does.

They are sacrificing their people and the environment for economic power. They play by a completely different set of rules. It is another world entirely.


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## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

> What happened to the Delta employes that made the UNISAW ?. They lost there jobs. It always ends up hurting someone. In Deltas sense, it hurt jobs here in the USA.


It is true that manufacturing jobs were lost, and I won't say that is a good thing. On the other hand, it is better that a company send their mfg overseas than go out of business. I work for a manufacturing company. A good chunk of our existing product lines are made here, but most of the new stuff is being made overseas (Ireland, Brazil, China). Our company can't keep up with the market if we have to pay the taxes, fees, and benefits, on all of these products. It is too expensive and the company would be irrelevant/nonexistent in our sector within 10 years. It is the government that is strangling American manufacturing. For the most part, socially responsible companies are just trying to survive (well, I'm sure some companies are just sourcing the cheapest labor possible, but that won't result in a quality product).

At least this way when you can support engineering, quality, finance jobs that are local, even if the manufacturing is going elsewhere. There are still plenty of great jobs in our country, it's just that fewer of them are trade skills.

Also, Northfield still makes fully USA-made woodworking machines. Amazing machines. Also very expensive.


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## benchbuilder (Sep 10, 2011)

Yes its all going away, a few still remain,
So think about who you vote for and see how they are voting to send our jobs out of the USA. Changing the trade laws and making it easy for third world countrys to sell here is why we lose jobs. Sorry for the rant, just saying we can change it if we change the guys voting to change us. Everyone should vote!!!!!!!! Go make a change!!!!!!


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

One thing to consider is the cost of living is so high now $20 is survival wages for an American worker.

Yes, we used to make things - and make things that last - but our current standard of living is primarily based on cheap products.

My wife collects and restores sewing machines. Like the old Unisaws, those old Sears Kenmore and Singer machines from the 50's and 60's were beasts - bullet proof and all metal. Yeah, it took a couple months wages to buy one but they lasted a lifetime.

Politics won't change it. Its not a matter of "sending jobs" away, its companies trying to compete because the US consumer focus is price, not quality. What's happened is we now live in a world when it goes kaput you throw it away and buy another one. Craftsman tools used to mean something.

Harbor Freight and Northern Tool exist to satisfy the US consumer mindset.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Well…..............If all the posted statements are true, why are there so many auto companies building in the U.S.? Let's see. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and others? No work force? Wages too high? We're proud to have these HUGE facilities here in Mississippi. YEP! MISSISSIPPI.
Bill


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

Bill White, how is it possible that foreign automakers can thrive building cars at their plants in Mississippi but Ford can't cut it building cars in Michigan? What could the difference be?


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

> Well…..............If all the posted statements are true, why are there so many auto companies building in the U.S.? Let s see. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and others? No work force? Wages too high? We re proud to have these HUGE facilities here in Mississippi. YEP! MISSISSIPPI.
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White


There's a pretty big difference between a table saw and a car. It makes a lot of sense for automakers and heavy equipment manufacturers to build it where they sell it because of shipping logistics. If I build a tractor and put it on a train and then on a boat I have that inventory on my books for a couple months and that's not great for business because of the immense costs of building something like that. Table saws can be thrown in a container and you can ship a whole bunch of them in one container.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

Check out the pay and benefits of each company and I think you will find at least some of the answer. Then check out the pay and benefits of BMW, Toyota here verses their home plants. Then check out who is executive management in their plants here Verses their home plants and they will most likely not be Americans. Then check where the profits go, not the individual pay check but the profits. This plus all incentives they get in taxes etc just for coming here. It great that there here so at least we have jobs but it is not the same thing as working for Americans. If we can get the Feds, EPA, environmentalist, control the union greed we might have this again someday, but I doubt it. People are used to what is here now and accept so we have what we have.


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## 716 (Nov 22, 2015)

> There s a pretty big difference between a table saw and a car. It makes a lot of sense for automakers and heavy equipment manufacturers to build it where they sell it because of shipping logistics. If I build a tractor and put it on a train and then on a boat I have that inventory on my books for a couple months and that s not great for business because of the immense costs of building something like that. Table saws can be thrown in a container and you can ship a whole bunch of them in one container.
> 
> - mramseyISU


On contrary, car is a very expensive item, so the shipping costs are dwarfed by the price of the car.
Lets take a Honda Accord that weights 3600 lbs and costs $23,000 and Grizzly 715 which weights 450lbs and costs $850. And lets say that 1000lbs costs $100 to ship.
So with Accord you pay $360 to ship or 1.5% or the total cost
With the saw you pay $45 or 5.3% of the total cost.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> Then check where the profits go, not the individual pay check but the profits.
> 
> - Woodcut1


The profits go to the shareholders. I don't know much about BMW, but I'm a TM shareholder.


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## TheGreatJon (Jan 9, 2015)

> Well…..............If all the posted statements are true, why are there so many auto companies building in the U.S.? Let s see. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and others? No work force? Wages too high? We re proud to have these HUGE facilities here in Mississippi. YEP! MISSISSIPPI.
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White


I could be wrong, but I thought that those were assembly plants? Lots if stuff is assembled here, and not just cars. Its cheaper to ship huge batches of parts than a finished product. The loss of manufacturing that is being discussed is in reference to actual production: casting, forging, machining, extruding, etc.


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## BurlyBob (Mar 13, 2012)

Makes me glad I got mine when I did.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

> Well…..............If all the posted statements are true, why are there so many auto companies building in the U.S.? Let s see. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and others? No work force? Wages too high? We re proud to have these HUGE facilities here in Mississippi. YEP! MISSISSIPPI.
> Bill
> 
> - Bill White
> ...


Weellll, happen to know that the major parts for the Hondas around here..bodies(stamped and welded in OH) Engines( cast, machined,,with stamping done in OH), Transmissions( castings, machining, forging of gears) are done here in Ohio. HTM ( the Transmission plant) expanded a few years ago to do all castings in-house, including all gears forged and machined. They also about doubled their workforce. Wire harnasses are made in Bellefontaine,OH,


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

Share holders get dividens specified by the company, that don't all their profits. The company keeps their profits many ways. They might retain dividens or simply retain profits and send them to the banks back in their home country. Once in those banks the money goes to fuel their economy through investments and loans. I know it is more complicated then this but I don't think all a companies profits go to share holders.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> Share holders get dividens specified by the company, that don t all their profits. The company keeps their profits many ways. They might retain dividens or simply retain profits and send them to the banks back in their home country. Once in those banks the money goes to fuel their economy through investments and loans. I know it is more complicated then this but I don t think all a companies profits go to share holders.
> 
> - Woodcut1


You seem very knowledgeable about corporate finance.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

No Mark I am not. I just don't see how all these foreign companies coming here and our companies sending their work out can be good for America. I hate to see what is going to happen when the government stops printing all this worthless money and we find out just how good of shape our economy really is in. However, I realize it is not possible to buy Ammerican out this point. Even if I do it is usually not very American at all. We used to be skilled labor ears ans now we are assemblers if we can get it.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

It would be possible to buy American if people like you would band together and start making things in America. That raises the important question, though, of how much you would charge for what you would make, and that would be entirely up to you.

The American consumer has pretty much spoken about how much value they place on the "American-made" component, and not a lot of entrepreneurs have been able to bring in their American-made products at or under that level. I neither agree nor disagree with your assessment of it being bad for America, but I will say that Americans having the freedom to choose for themselves is a good thing.

One final thought: If we onshore all manufacturing that has been lost, the problem (as you define it) is still with us. Advances in technology and automation are displacing more American workers than offshoring ever did. Offshoring might have been the cause of the problem, but, as odd as it might seem, reversing that is no longer the solution to the problem.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Iriony of Honda making cars and trucks here in the USA? They have been shipping cars BACK to Japan, complete with the right hand drive set-up.


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

American have the freedom to choose and that is good. The problem is did they choose the right thing when they chose to give our economy away for cheaper low quality goods. I guess our children and grand children will have to find out if we made the right choice. I Am not certain that advances in automation and technology have taken jobs. In many of those cases lost jobs in one area created jobs gained in others. On the other hand jobs that went overseas are just plain gone and there were thousands and thousands of them. Wether we want to see it or not our standard of living and high paying jobs went with them. The jobs numbers in this country don't tell you the story where thousands have lost high preying jobs to overseas and now their new job is working in a store or call service ect. I know we can't get our jobs back and it is very sad that we don't even realize what has happened to us is not good.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

> American have the freedom to choose and that is good. The problem is did they choose the right thing when they chose to give our economy away for cheaper low quality goods.
> 
> - Woodcut1


I would ask if American workers chose the right thing when they refused to more closely align their wages with those being paid elsewhere. Stated differently; did American workers choose the right thing when thy refused to agree to wage levels that could result in their products representing equal or higher value than those being offered by the competition?


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

You gotta pay the price for an American tool or watch it go out of business or over seas. I've been hearing about these great tools moving overseas for years on these forums, but its our own fault. When people have money they want a great deal and when they don't have money they want an even better deal.

Sometimes cheaper more efficient labor from a foreign country can keep a business afloat. You can only kick the tire so long before it drives away…..


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

There are some good American made tools that I am willing to pay the price for. Kreg, Incra, Oneida to name a few. However you need to be careful because some American products have less quality in order to have a more competitive price. This is the choice Americans made awhile back. I do have some tools from overseas that are actually pretty good but I only have them because Unless I go high end industrial that is all that is available. I am just an old guy, I have the words "BUY AMERICAN" on the front license plate of my Chevy truck. Knowing what this country used to be, I guess I will never change.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

Making something in America, China, or anywhere has nothing to do with the quality. It's specifications and tolerances. The simple fact is that it takes so few humans to make something like a tablesaw that hourly wage rates do not significantly impact the final cost.

Also, China and Taiwan manufacturing can meet any specification set for them, by anyone. So blame Delta for lowering the quality; not the country of manufacture.

The other simple fact is that we want things for nothing. Everyone complains about Festool pricing; but they are the ones innovating, spending the Research & Development, paying the Engineers, paying people to THINK about new products, new designs, in-tool dust collection, using better bearings, better brush-less motors, tighter tolerances - and I have nothing to do with Festool…

We'll all go to Home Depot, buy a $59 router or sander, then complain about it. If you want quality products … pay for them.

"Who is John Galt" - he's the one who stopped the engine of the world


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## Woodcut1 (Feb 23, 2016)

I disagree strongly that China can make products of quality to spec. I do agree the American companies have a large part of the blame for some of the junk they are making overseas and sometimes even here. Germany's solution to competing with the China junk is don't. They make high quality stuff meant for the trades and industrial use and if the homeowner wants to pay for it they can buy it to. Maybe the US should adopt this way.


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## MJCD (Nov 28, 2011)

I've managed two manufacturing companies in China - they have excellent tooling, excellent engineers, and a workforce that actually works. Yes, they earn less money, have fewer benefits; but, they don't need $200/mo. cable TV packages, wireless telephones and Pads with 'data' plans, two cars in each family; three-weeks vacation, nor a single-family home stocked with stuff they never use.

American companies make cheap products because they know that we'll still buy them - look at GM, Ford: they lost 70% of the US car market by making cheap, unsafe cars. The first thing Stanley did when it bought Porter-Cable was to cheapen the products, and sell off of it brand-name.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

The quality of goods made in America really depends on the tools used to manufacture them and the quality of the workers who put them together. American workers of today are not the same as the workers of a hundred years ago. Back then, a worker took pride in what he did. Today, a worker says, "you want good work, pay me". The difference was; you get mediocre work today. Back then mediocre work meant losing your job. Labor unions are largely responsible for that; they protect workers "rights" and don't require top notch work from their members to keep their jobs. Japan is the top example of how workers work. They have fierce pride in what they do. It is personal with them. German workers also have that feeling of pride for a job well done, but here, most workers have a 9 to 5 mentality; as soon as that clock strikes 5 and most times before striking 5, they rush out the door even leaving a job unfinished. That is how the American worker views working-for-a-living. I use the word "most", but I recognize there are still some American workers who strive to do the very best. I have worked as a contract worker in shipyards where the labor force was unionized. I saw first hand how they would "hide out" and sleep when they should have been working. When the work whistle blew, you better not stand in their way or get trampled. They would stop work as much as 30 minutes before quitting time and pretend to be working when the boss showed up. That is the image I have of some American workers, not all of them.

I was brought up a Christian, (Catholic actually) and was taught by the priests that not giving a full 8 hours of work for 8 hours pay, was the same as stealing money for work that was not done. I know people don't comprehend that today, but that was the way I was brought up. I have always given a full day's work all my working life. To me it was the right thing to do and I take pride in doing so. My son (USAF) has followed my example and that gives me great pride, knowing he is one of the few with good ethics.

Donald Trump has said; he will make America great again by bringing manufacturing back to the U.S. I hope that is so and not just campaign rhetoric.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

> I disagree strongly that China can make products of quality to spec. I do agree the American companies have a large part of the blame for some of the junk they are making overseas and sometimes even here. Germany s solution to competing with the China junk is don t. They make high quality stuff meant for the trades and industrial use and if the homeowner wants to pay for it they can buy it to. Maybe the US should adopt this way.
> 
> - Woodcut1


You've obviously never spent any time in Asia at the factories they have over there. German companies are building products in China. Bosch, Rickmeier, SKF and Kracht are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. The Chinese will build things as good or as bad as you want them to.


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## CJIII (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry to hear that, that's why I buy old arn. But sometimes you cant avoid buying China made tools, for example like miter saws, cordless drills, routers, circular saws, ect. Unless you buy used.


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

> They lost there jobs. It always ends up hurting someone.
> 
> - Delta356


Really? when did it become THEIR job? The job belongs to the company, and employee is paid to do it until they are no longer needed.

So if this you would rather hurt some Taiwanese person or some American? If Taiwanese then is this xenophobia?

This is the market. This is the one place/way voting matters. If you dont like what Delta did then vote with your cash and buy a Northfield or anything other than Delta.

I love old Iron machines. Everything in my shop is pre 1963 and american made. But my understanding of the market and econ tops that iron love.


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## SawyerRob (Feb 8, 2016)

First time poster here, but I just wanted to say that I LOVE my Unisaw! In fact I have two, I bought the first one new in about 1983. The second, I bought used and it's MUCH older, so both of mine are made in USA….YEAAA! lol

IF someone said I could only keep "one" power tool, my 80's Unisaw would be the tool I'd keep!

SR


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

I really don't see the issue here.

Maybe I'm younger than y'all, but he very concept of brands as something to be loyal to is largely a thing of the past. Specs, prices, and reviews matter.

For every job lost a job has been gained, as employment is near/at full. Are they as good? It depends on the skills of the individual. On net though they have improved, since GDP has been rising per capita unabated.

Wealthy countries just can not efficiently manufacture labor-heavy. With heavy automation they can. But that doesn't solve "the problem".

Tariffs aren't the answer. Shifting manufacturing to developing countries has as much to do with the development of efficient worldwide logistics as anything political. Given today's efficiency going back in time, the shift away from US manufacturing would have happened much earlier. Super efficient container ships have more to do with the shift in manufacturing than regs like OSHA.

Offer minimum wage and I'm sure plenty of companies could keep making things in the US. But noone will do that work for that $$, the few that will are likely to do crap work.

It is what it is.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> I really don t see the issue here.
> 
> Maybe I m younger than y all, but he very concept of brands as something to be loyal to is largely a thing of the past. Specs, prices, and reviews matter.
> 
> ...


15 dollar minium wage is going to force us to go to China to pick up a MacDonald's hamburger. When those jobs start going away I wonder what's going to replace them.

Do they put Melamine in China bugger??

Many cows eat the the dumps in China.


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## SawyerRob (Feb 8, 2016)

Waaay back when, I read an article that Delta "use to" have the saw top castings piled outside for over a year….curing BEFORE machining…

After they sold out, the tops were no longer cured, just went from the foundry to the machining operation…

The article, said the old way gave a much better stable top as it "stress relieved" over time…

Anyway, that's I read it in one of the wood working magazines.

SR


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## SirIrb (Jan 12, 2015)

> I really don t see the issue here.
> 
> Maybe I m younger than y all, but he very concept of brands as something to be loyal to is largely a thing of the past. Specs, prices, and reviews matter.
> 
> ...


^^^This^^^

Do I like that one can no longer buy a well built Uni, No. But I wouldnt own one that was made in the u.s. in the last 30 or 40 years. I believe there is a big difference between the Delta of old and the Delta of the recent past. I wouldnt trade my 1948 uni for a 1998 uni, period. Not to mention that aesthetics are big for me and the newer unis are ugly.

I will trade my uni for an old 66. Just throwing that out there.


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

It would be interesting to figure out what a Unisaw in 1960 would cost in today's dollars and how many weeks or even months salary would it take to buy one.

Because of Taiwan based manufacturing, industrial quality equipment is within reach for many of us with hobby shops, something I think was unheard of 30, 40 years ago except for the wealthy. This is why Craftsman was such a huge success with there homeowner machines that many of us with these machines now consider "junk" (and make no mistake, they were poor quality machines but made in the USA).

The effect of all this overseas manufacturing is it has lowered our standard of living and therefore made us wealthier.

The way I see it is, I've been using my Jet tablesaw for 15 years and 15 years from now I'll still be using it, while the guys with the $400 table saw will be on their 3rd or 4th one unless they learned their lesson.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

> I really don t see the issue here.
> 
> Maybe I m younger than y all, but he very concept of brands as something to be loyal to is largely a thing of the past. Specs, prices, and reviews matter.
> 
> ...


Waldo88, here's the issue…
There is no first world country on the planet without a strong manufacturing base. Zero… Lose your manufacturing base, lose your first world living standard. And no, The Vatican does not count.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

Tennessee, I'm struggling to understand your perspective on this. Not knowing how you quantify or qualify "first-world country," "strong manufacturing base," and "first-world living standard" makes it difficult. Do you consider the US to have a first-world living standard?


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> Waldo88, here s the issue…
> There is no first world country on the planet without a strong manufacturing base. Zero… Lose your manufacturing base, lose your first world living standard. And no, The Vatican does not count.
> 
> - Tennessee


Maybe that was true decades ago. Or perhaps it was just a spurious correlation.

Plenty of things are made in the US (not incl boutique type stuff). Just not many direct consumer goods outside of entertainment, food, and pharma. Aerospace, defense, vehicles, energy, etc…

Ideas have value. And the US is beyond dominant as a source of good ideas. There's a reason just about every innovation has its roots in the US.

Would you trade today's living standards for those 30 years ago? 50 years ago? I certainly wouldn't. And there is nothing to suggest that living standards are going to decline. People will always seek a higher standard of living and do what they need to do to achieve it; some fail, many succeed.



> Do you consider the US to have a first-world living standard?


Our lack of universal health care makes that questionable. More like 1.1-st world.


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## MinnesotaSteve (Dec 17, 2015)

> It would be interesting to figure out what a Unisaw in 1960 would cost in today s dollars and how many weeks or even months salary would it take to buy one.
> 
> Because of Taiwan based manufacturing, industrial quality equipment is within reach for many of us with hobby shops, something I think was unheard of 30, 40 years ago except for the wealthy. This is why Craftsman was such a huge success with there homeowner machines that many of us with these machines now consider "junk" (and make no mistake, they were poor quality machines but made in the USA).
> 
> ...


An interesting point. I don't know about old table saws, but my mother told me the Singer sewing machine she bought in the 1950s cost around $500. It was cast iron, and worked for a good 50 years. She replaced it in around 2002 with a $1500 Pfaff (german brand) that was programmable and could even embroider a monogram…. just crazy.

But $500 in 1950s was 2-3 months salary, whereas $1500 in 2002 was 2-3 weeks salary. Granted that Pfaff probably would not last 50 years, although my sister in law has it now that my mom passed, so I'll get back to you in another 40.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

Would you trade today s living standards for those 30 years ago? 50 years ago? I certainly wouldn t. And there is nothing to suggest that living standards are going to decline. People will always seek a higher standard of living and do what they need to do to achieve it; some fail, many succeed.

Do you consider the US to have a first-world living standard?

Our lack of universal health care makes that questionable. More like 1.1-st world.

- Waldo88
[/QUOTE]
I would trade today's standards for those of 50 years ago in a heart beat save for advances in healthcare, most everything else has gone downhill. People have such a narrow set of skills, very few know how to take care of themselves the way people used to. Government continues to grow (in an invasive manner) offering neither needed, wanted nor productive services, costing more everyday while spending money that doesn't exist financed by IOU's predominately from China. 50 years from now the middle class will all live in Mexico working for Chinese companies driving cars they aren't even allowed to work on themselves.


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> An interesting point. I don t know about old table saws, but my mother told me the Singer sewing machine she bought in the 1950s cost around $500. It was cast iron, and worked for a good 50 years. She replaced it in around 2002 with a $1500 Pfaff (german brand) that was programmable and could even embroider a monogram…. just crazy.
> 
> But $500 in 1950s was 2-3 months salary, whereas $1500 in 2002 was 2-3 weeks salary. Granted that Pfaff probably would not last 50 years, although my sister in law has it now that my mom passed, so I ll get back to you in another 40.
> 
> - MinnesotaSteve


Interestingly, I just bought a Singer sewing machine for $125. A few hours salary.

Even if it doesn't last for decades, it doesn't matter, just buy another cheap one if needed and it breaks (doubtful).

Decades ago, a woodworker wouldn't buy a sewing machine to make cushions for a loveseat he's making. If he didn't know anyone that sewed, he'd go to an upholsterer. Nowadays that cheap sewing machine is at worst a wash with the labor cost to have an upholsterer make the cushions; not only do you likely save money, you have a sewing machine at the end of it. In the information age, know-how to do the work is just a few clicks away.

As long as the tool specs work; a sewing machine for upholstery needs needs no fancy features (just basic stitches are used), just power. The cheap machine is perfect.



> I would trade today s standards for those of 50 years ago in a heart beat save for advances in healthcare, most everything else has gone downhill. People have such a narrow set of skills, very few know how to take care of themselves the way people used to. Government continues to grow (in an invasive manner) offering neither needed, wanted nor productive services, costing more everyday while spending money that doesn t exist financed by IOU s predominately from China. 50 years from now the middle class will all live in Mexico working for Chinese companies driving cars they aren t even allowed to work on themselves.
> 
> - bigblockyeti


50 years ago most (white) middle class families owned A television. And A car. They lived in 1200 sq ft houses. There were 3 channels on the TV, if you lived in an area with good coverage. Most people had a phone in the house, but many shared lines with neighbors. AC was starting to become common in new houses. Middles class houses were just starting to get dishwashers. Access to information was very limited and only found in print (there was absolutely nothing like this place). Rock and roll was in its infancy. Air travel was expensive and uncommon. Everyone was scared of getting nuked. And if you weren't white…

Narrow set of skills? I would refute that strongly. The range of skills people have continues to grow. The information age has supercharged it. We aren't terribly far from The Matrix, where Neo just uploads a program to learn a new skill; just Google it and watch some Youtube vids. Sure some classic useful skills aren't as strong, but the range of useful skills continues to expand. For example, virtually everybody is as good at photo editing today as pro photographers were 30 years ago.

That is a very narrow and mostly wrong view of the role of China, the US's role in providing the reserve currency, fundamentally what currency actually is, and the wealth of nations. Seems like nothing more than a construct to explain a bleak worldview; working backwards from a conclusion.


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## SawyerRob (Feb 8, 2016)

> An interesting point. I don t know about old table saws, but my mother told me the Singer sewing machine she bought in the 1950s cost around $500. It was cast iron, and worked for a good 50 years. She replaced it in around 2002 with a $1500 Pfaff (german brand) that was programmable and could even embroider a monogram…. just crazy.
> 
> - MinnesotaSteve


 Thing is, that OLD Singer was "top of the line" in the old days, just like her Pfaff is "top of the tine" today! The only thing a "Singer" today has in common with the old singer is, the name!!

Anyway, the Unisaw "use to be, top of the line too, NOW…..it's going the way of the Singer!!

SR


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

The question about 50 years ago is interesting. My Dad worked his entire career in a blue-collar position for the same company, except for a few years away dropping bombs on Germany. He never brought any work home with him. If he worked overtime, he was compensated.

My Mom never worked outside of the house except to sell Avon for a little extra spending money. There were four children. We always had good food, a new car every two or three years, and a two week vacation every year. The house was bought new after my Dad returned from WWII. It was very comfortable and well maintained.

My Dad retired at 62 and he and my Mom did a lot of traveling after that. He recently passed away just short of 98 with some money left over.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

^ This is why things used to be better!


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## Waldo88 (Nov 7, 2014)

> ^ This is why things used to be better!
> 
> - bigblockyeti


People could still live that way.

Almost noone *chooses* to.

People want much bigger houses, a car for everyone, HGTV worthy kitchens, keeping up with the joneses with tech and toys. Women want to work (or make that choice via lifestyle choices).

I used to live in a neighborhood built immediately post WW2. Noone lived in those "starter homes" more than a few years; when people had kids they moved up. Our land values were just high enough to prevent what was happening to all the postwar neighborhoods around us, where pretty much every basic 1000 sqft house was bulldozed in favor of new 3500 sqft dream homes with 3 car garages. Thats what people want nowadays, that's the way they choose to live. The consequence is the 2 earner family of today.

BTW, I live in a (late) postwar neighborhood, my wife doesn't work but odds n ends online for a bit of extra spending money, she stays home to take care of the kids. We get a new car every few years, and go on a couple vacations a year. I work in construction (tho I design it, white not blue collar), and leave my work in the office every afternoon when I go home. Overtime, been years since I last worked any. That life still exists if you WANT it to.


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## MarkDavisson (Apr 26, 2009)

In 1969 my father bought a new Buick Skylark for $4,900. I don't remember the trim package, but it had some "options." Adjusted for inflation (and, if Buick still made a Skylark), it would cost $32,500 today.

A Buick Regal, today, costs about $27,700 with a moderate trim package. I don't know that the Regal is the best comparison to a Skylark, but I'm guessing it is. This would indicate that the price, adjusted for inflation, has actually come down.

In 1969 you started talking about a vehicle approaching its life expectancy when you were at 60,000 miles. You (well, *we*) certainly wouldn't start out on any long trips with an odometer reading like that. The 2016 Buick Regal, by contrast, should easily take you 150,000 miles, and newer models with many more miles than that are selling for a healthy price on the websites.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I was looking at the wrong line on the KBB website. That Regal I priced is selling for right at $32,000, not $27,700.


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

We love our way of living - many people would hate it.

We live in a house built in 1738 and "updated" in 1800. We have one pre-pay dumb phone for emergencies. Our TV is just a monitor for viewing DVDs from the library. Our vehicles are a 1998 Ford Ranger and a 2015 Honda. We spend a lot of time at home and love it. We school our children at home, grow much of our own food, and have some chickens and goats.

I was able to retire at 56. To me, there is no comparison between that and the stuff that we happily do without.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

Just to get this back sort of on topic - in 1950, the Delta Unisaw sold for $254 - without a motor or switch. A 1hp RI motor was another $87.50, motor cover another $12, and switch/cord was another $3.75. In todays dollars, that would be $3,514.85. You can get a 3hp Unisaw with a 52 inch Biesemeyer and extension table for ~$2700 on Amazon w/free delivery (or even less if you go with the 36" fence). With the newer machine, not only is it cheaper in price comparison, but you get way more power, a better fence and some significant safety upgrades.

Cheers,
Brad


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## SawyerRob (Feb 8, 2016)

I wouldn't buy a NEW Unisaw today, too many good deals on really nice used ones around!!

I bought my OLD one for $100.00! It's 1hp 120v motor, but still has plenty of power for everything but HEAVY re-sawing and that's not a problem for me.

SR


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## builtinbkyn (Oct 29, 2015)

I like my new Unisaw. Just as the older Unisaws were, it has leading edge design. All the controls are up front including a true riving knife with the release upfront as well. It also has the largest top in the class, a large blade opening for ease of blade changes, a captured washer on the nut, a single cast trunnion, push button arbor lock and a miter gauge that is actually worth something. It can also accommodate a 1 1/8" dado and it's the heaviest 3hp saw in it's class. No complaints so far. The only issue is some dust leaking between the top and the cabinet which I will correct. The cabinet has virtually no dust accumulation inside.

It's made off shore as are all of the mainstream saws. I don't know what the customer service is like because I haven't needed to contact them. That is unlike many purchasers of new saws that have had issues right out of the box. Maybe I was lucky or maybe it's just Delta quality control. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see this type of machinery made here again.


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## Ericlee1122 (Jun 23, 2015)

I live in Taiwan and also like the goods ,made in USA. I bought the Whirlpool refrigerator 6 year ago @ Costco Taiwan ,because it made in USA. Now I can not find any refrigerator ,made in USA.

I do like the Delta UNISAW . The best sad thing is , Wherever the Unisaw been manufactured ,I can not buy one in Taiwan.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

As you know, Sears doesn't manufacture anything. Their operation is strictly sales. That is the reality of more and more American companies; once manufacturers, they have turned to solely selling a product no longer made by them. It doesn't matter what name is on that product; it is no longer made by the company that bears that name. RCA, GE, Westinghouse are just a few of the thousands of companies that no longer manufacturer their own products.

At least Taiwan makes better consumer goods than China; Jet is a good example.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

As you know, Sears doesn't manufacture anything. Their operation is strictly sales. That is the reality of more and more American companies; once manufacturers, they have turned to solely selling a product no longer made by them. It doesn't matter what name is on that product; it is no longer made by the company that bears that name. RCA, GE, Westinghouse are just a few of the thousands of companies that no longer manufacturer their own products.


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## mramseyISU (Mar 3, 2014)

> As you know, Sears doesn t manufacture anything. Their operation is strictly sales. That is the reality of more and more American companies; once manufacturers, they have turned to solely selling a product no longer made by them. It doesn t matter what name is on that product; it is no longer made by the company that bears that name. RCA, GE, Westinghouse are just a few of the thousands of companies that no longer manufacturer their own products.
> 
> At least Taiwan makes better consumer goods than China; Jet is a good example.
> 
> - MrRon


That's not completely true about GE I know for a fact they still produce quite a bit of stuff just not anything thing you'd classify as "consumer grade". I used to work for a place that supplied components to GE's power transmission division and we designed about built lube pumps for GE wind turbines and locomotives. Places like that still build stuff in the US. John Deere, Caterpillar, Ford or GM are good examples of that. Still lots of manufacturing going on for high precision parts in the States. That being said these big global companies also have to look at where stuff is selling. You don't see a lot of small car assembly in the US because we don't buy them in the numbers they do overseas. It doesn't make sense to build something here when 75% of your market is somewhere else. Build it where you sell the most of them.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> RCA, GE, Westinghouse are just a few of the thousands of companies that no longer manufacturer their own products.
> - MrRon


RCA has been out of the picture for decades and has been bought, sold, split and spread across dozens of different companies… but GE and Westinghouse still have a large manufacturing presence in the US and abroad - mostly in the large appliance, industrial and aerospace sectors.

Cheers,
Brad


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## anchorman (Aug 30, 2017)

you can buy an american saw still:

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm

I think they cost $10,000. I know that to replace the MOAK jointer we had in the shop I used to work in with one of theirs, it would be about that much. You can still get a Dries and Krump 48" finger break for about 10 grand too, last I checked. Beautiful made in america stuff based on designs accepted by the government for military use back when war ships had wood shops and machine shops and had to be able to make just about anything they might need on board.

The PRC chinese make fine stuff if you are willing to pay enough for it. I used to own a really nice chinese SKS rifle. It was made as well as one could wish for. I have a PRC made floor jack my grandfather bought in the late 70's early 80's, and left it outside to rust for years and years. I didn't rust, but eventually the seals failed, as will happen with any hydraulic system after 30+ years. I have bought crappy stuff in germany made by germans, as well as spent "ridiculous" amounts of money for the finest made screwdrivers, pliers, and garden shears. It's all about the price point you are willing to go for to some extent. Same thing with british electrics for cars. Lucas made great things when they put them on satellites, and such, but the british car industry wasn't willing/able to pay what it cost for stuff that worked, so lucas made them things that sort of worked sometimes at the price point they were willing to pay.

It is very sad to see the price gouging that american firms engage in, however, when they send factories and work overseas, and we don't actually see a drop in price to the consumer as a result. Happens way too often, but suckers keep paying.


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