# Best hardware orientation to avoid loosening?



## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Hey everyone! I'm nearly finished on a large western red cedar A-frame swing. I need to mount the eye bolts to supports that sit at a 45 degree angle. I realized if I drill straight through and mount the eye bolt, The bolt will be at an angle and get pulled in a bending motion with pressure forcing it into the wood sideways. It seems the hole could be compressed at the bottom since the bolt is being pulled sideways rather than just in tention. Due to the width of the swing compared to the A-frame, I can't mount it anywhere past halfway up the angled brace or the chains will pull inward.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

New photos up now, and both working


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

Hard to understand what you've got. Can you post a pic of the whole swing-and show us where the bolts would go?


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

> Hard to understand what you ve got. Can you post a pic of the whole swing-and show us where the bolts would go?
> - jerryminer


Completely agree with Jerry's post quoted above. But, before gaining more understanding, I think I would avoid putting torque on a wooden member, and I would use the largest flat washers available to spread the compression load over a wider area.

... ... ...


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

Well….... The new pics are a *little* better but it's still hard to see where the load is. Which way is up?

Can't you get the whole swing in a pic?


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd hang them through the top instead of the corner brackets.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

I agree with Bondo, whole heartedly.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

It's not torque, it's bending on the bolt. Also, it would put bearing on the wood which after use could start to erode the hole.

I would also suggest going through the main member, and if geometry does not allow, going though both.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

I've about concluded that the pictures are in need of a 90-deg rotation to the right to make sense. Then it would show the frame in upright position, and that LAGeek is holding the bolt toward the upper portion of the A-frame; and that angle gusset piece is between the top cross member and the vertical A-frame.

With that as a basis, the thing I would now suggest is the shaft of the eye-bolt should be vertical, so as to be in-line with the tension exerted on it by the swing. The upper cross member being set at a 45-deg angle complicates the problem since it presents a corner on the top edge, rather than a flat upper surface to bear the load of the bolts.

I'd consider doing one of these things:
I. cut a flat, horizontal. surface into the cross member , that is perpendicular to the bolt shaft. Make it large enough to accommodate a large flat washer under the nuts that hold the bolt.
II. cut a saddle that sits on top of the cross mender at the bolt hole zone, and provides the horizontal surface that is perpendicular to the bolt. Use the flat washer and nuts on top of that added saddle.

You could even combine these ideas: 
Cut the notch in the beam edge to make the horizontal surface. Then add a spacer block of wood that is cut to fit that newly formed horizontal surface. The bolt then goes through the beam, and through that added block, and the washer and nuts combo sits on top of that. The spacer black could be replaced without compromising the beam, if the need arose.

(I hope there is at least a little chance that what I have written makes sense to at least a few readers. It's clear to me!)


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I'd have to agree with Paul, hardware like that doesn't like to be bent or placed in shear (within wood), direct tension is best. Only going through the brace instead of the top beam places unnecessary stress on the hardware maintaining the joint between the brace and legs.


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## OnhillWW (Jan 10, 2015)

If long term durability is the goal I would swap out the soft plated hanger with a forged / hanger like or similar to this:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#eyebolts/=1a3fggc
The one in the picture will wear through eventually. You can source that type of bolt at a local commercial fastener vendor and I'd be surprised if it cost more than $4-$5 each. I've used many of these (galv) and they are very rugged.

You don't say but I'm assuming that you are positioning the hanger in the corner support because you need the width to accommodate the width of the swing? If so moving the hanger into the top horizontal cross member would not be an option? If so I'd install as in 2nd or bottom photo with wide washers on each face and use a nyloc nut retightening it once again when the wood dries out . If you up size the eye bolt diameter to 5/8th or even 3/4" I really do not see the lateral torque issue being anything to worry about.


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## jerryminer (Jun 15, 2014)

> I ve about concluded that the pictures are in need of a 90-deg rotation to the right to make sense. Then it would show the frame in upright position- jimintx


OK. thanks, Jim. I think I get the concept now. Here's a sketch of what I think the OP has built. I agree that the eye bolt should be installed in the top beam, not the angled brace-even if the swing is a little too wide and the chain has to angle out a little to catch the swing.

Drilling into the corner of the beam should not be difficult with a V-block drill guide.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Thank you so much for the reply's everyone! I'm sorry I haven't been able to provide the requested photos or more clearly explain the situation. This is an insane week and I haven't had time to respond to you guys after throwing the post up as fast as I could.
You are correct about the photo rotation and reiterated my concern well. I was pretty sure that wouldn't be the best route, but was curious to see if it was possible to get away with it.
Moving the bolt to the top beam was my original plan, until real life didn't match perfectly with SketchUp. I found doing so allows the bench to move side to side too freely, as well as puts a lot of inward pulling stress on the frame, especially the armrests.
Cutting a flat cutout at a 45 to hold the bolt is what I've already done to counter sink all the carriage bolts that are in the frame so would be easy. I thought of putting the eye through both the top beam and brace as well, but I bought my hardware for going through just the top beam so it's too short. We only go into town once a month or less, so I'm stuck with these bolts.
Here's my SketchUp plan of the completed swing. Due to the size of my shop and the glue ups in progress, I can't have the A-frame and swing together yet.

Thank you all so much for your input, though I've been doing this for about 6 years now, I've always had to depend on asking those more knowledgeable than me for advice. I've never had anyone to teach me this wonderful craft, and really appreciate you all being so willing to share your experience.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Alright, I've gone over every possibility I could think of, but I'm pretty stuck with almost having to use a 45 degree mount. I was thinking of drilling a 3/4" hole, inserting a pipe, then putting the bolt in a rubber sleeve and fitting it in the pipe. Would that reinforce it and spread the pressure enough?


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

I don't see how that would be any better than just drilling a hole. The key thing is to spread the pressure out on the back side. You'll want as large a fender washer as you can get for that, or even a metal plate to spread the load even further.


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

imo, youre over complicating it and trying to reinvent the wheel. KISS.

and use stainless forged eye bolts. stainless fender washers,too. you use them rinkety eye bolts in the pic and theyll open up over time.

think about it- 90%+ of the swings lifetime wont see crap for weight on it.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

> I don t see how that would be any better than just drilling a hole. The key thing is to spread the pressure out on the back side. You ll want as large a fender washer as you can get for that, or even a metal plate to spread the load even further.
> 
> - jonah


I thought going from 3/8 to 3/4 diameter might help spread the pressure more to prevent the bolt from being pulled through the wood sideways. Since it's at an angle, there's both downward and sideways force applied to it.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

> imo, youre over complicating it and trying to reinvent the wheel. KISS.
> 
> and use stainless forged eye bolts. stainless fender washers,too. you use them rinkety eye bolts in the pic and theyll open up over time.
> 
> ...


I know, I made it way more complicated. I should have planned this out beforehand.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

If the angled supports are strong enough to hold the swing then I would go ahead and use them. I would get eye bolts that are threaded all the way up, and put nuts and washers on both sides. Drill hole the size of eye bolts.


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## timmib (Apr 22, 2016)

Looking at your design, I wonder that you could use rope to connect the seat to the structure rail. Need to do some channeling and smoothing, but it would keep the dynamics and weight balance appropriate for a swing. Just a thought.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

> Looking at your design, I wonder that you could use rope to connect the seat to the structure rail. Need to do some channeling and smoothing, but it would keep the dynamics and weight balance appropriate for a swing. Just a thought.
> 
> - timmib


That's not a bad idea. I considered that as well, but it just didnt fit as well with the look of the peice when I set it up.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Just got the swing and frame back in the shop, I can't step back far enough to get the entire thing but here's most of it


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

How about drilling a vertical hole through the 45deg member? Then file a flat on the top side for a washer to rest on. You'll need a long eye bolt…


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

> How about drilling a vertical hole through the 45deg member? Then file a flat on the top side for a washer to rest on. You ll need a long eye bolt…
> 
> - sras


I said earlier this wasn't possible, but I was drawing it out and adjusting the position before finding I have 1/8 inch of clearance from the bolts already in the brace… total luck! I can put it in under stringent tention after all.


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

If you don't wan't to drill a counter bore hole then just put a 4" piece of SSteel angle iron ovet the drilled bolt hole that will spread out the load for sure. They make washers that have a groove in them for this purpose.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Here's one done, I'll be getting larger washers later.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

That will do nicely!


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

Still saying you should have went through the top support. None of your wood members that are supportiing the swing are in bearing. longer eye bolt and drill through everything



> Here's one done, I'll be getting larger washers later.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

I agree. You're putting a ton of stress on that 45-degree joint that you don't have to. I'd order much longer bolts and go through to the top, then chisel out a flat area there. Then use a piece of steel or aluminum as a giant washer to distribute the load.


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

Paul, jonah, and others are right. This is a truly great piece of woodwork, with a sketchy compromise for hanging the swing.

The stress issue was not really about the angle of the bolt's penetration through the 45-deg support, but rather about depending on that support piece at all for sustaining the weight and motion of the swing. Ordering the right hardware can't be that difficult.

Really, wishing you good luck with it. If it sits unused, and essentially becomes art, nothing will ever happen. If it gets used and weakens from stresses of the swing, you obviously have the skills to rebuild it.


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## LoyalAppleGeek (Dec 14, 2015)

Thank you all again for the honest opinions! I wanted to ask if you were aware that the support is bolted to the top beam only 4" away from the eye bolt. If you were aware of that and it's still an issue let me know, as I thought this would have a similar effect of bolting the eye to the top beam but make it easier to hide the hardware and space the eyes closer to the sides. I thought it would essentially move the load from one bolt to another. If that was one of those ideas that was better in concept than in practice let me know.


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## jonah (May 15, 2009)

It doesn't really change my opinion, to be honest. The location of the eye just means the ~200-300lbs of force is exerted directly on those bolted connections. The bolts are plenty strong, but the interface between bolt and wood isn't, especially over time.


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## sras (Oct 31, 2009)

Time will tell. If it gets a little loose, tighten the bolts. If that isn't working, then drill through the top beam.


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## PaulHWood (Mar 26, 2012)

Sill a bolted condition on one end, but likely strong enough, the values for connectionc are tabulated in the NDS, need thickness of wood and bolt diameter. The top connection is a bearing connection assuming their is a plate washer on top. This knee brace is typicall only designed to create lateral stiffnessso the connection will be in combined loading. That said, it will probably work, but no redundancy in the connection (ie one bolt)


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