# Mama Always Told Me Not To Talk To Strangers



## closetguy (Sep 29, 2007)

You don't get to my age without having picked up a few wounds in the back from being too good-natured. I guess I just trust people a little too much and occasionally, when I'm not looking, here comes another knife in the back.

I first started making these dovetailed post office box banks about 10 years ago for my wife to give as gifts. It wasn't until a little over a year ago that I started getting serious about the banks and put them in my Etsy store and selling them at shows. They have been a big hit and I have sold a boat load of them. I didn't invent these banks, and I didn't invent dovetails or box joints, but I seldom saw these banks made any way other than butt or mitre joint. I figured as soon as I started selling on Etsy that there would be a gaggle of "me too" copies since no one was yet making this style (or selling this style on Etsy). It didn't take long before someone listed a few made with half blind joints, but they were using the cheesy cheap coin slots so I didn't consider it much competition. It's been surprising to me that there hasn't been a flood of them on Etsy, which is good for me and helped me to build a brand around that style.

A fellow LJ emailed me last month asking for information on building the banks. Of course, being the type of person I am, I sent a detailed email back on how to build them. Over the course of a few weeks I answered many emails from him on how to mount the doors, size of screws to use, cleaning, the nuances of working with brass versus bronze versus zinc, hardware sources, etc. All the things I have learned through trial and error or mistakes were laid bare. I didn't ask, but I assumed he was making them for gifts or to sell at shows. He even asked for a picture of the back, which I didn't have, but I took the time to make one and sent to him. I always adhere to the LJ creed to help others when they ask.

So guess what? Last week, he started listing his boxes, which look just like mine, on Etsy. The sad part is he made a comment in one of his emails to me that my prices were too low for these boxes. I guess it wasn't enough to short cut his venture by taking advantage of my good nature and experience, but he felt the need to price them the same also. He is buying the doors off Ebay, so he is already paying three times what I pay for my doors. I wish he had stated in his first email "Hey Closet Guy. Can you help me out so I can build bank boxes just like yours and compete against you on Etsy? I don't have the initiative to figure it out on my own." Yep, my response would have been a little different.

I always knew there would eventually be more people listing this style of box on Etsy, especially when they saw how many I have sold in a short period of time. I just never thought it would be from someone I helped. No, I'm not pissed, just a little disappointed.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Ouch! I don't know what we should do. Start a lynch mob because it's a fellow LJ. Tell him he should give you a percent of his sales to pay for instruction. Maybe just laugh because he's not making as much money.

You're always been a decent guy and helped everyone with advice on the business side especially. I've always been apperceptive of it.


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## sandhill (Aug 28, 2007)

Yea as a matter of fact I seem to remember seeing some references and dialog you had with a few people here. Contact etsy and tell them you will pull out if they let him continue is all I can suggest. Over the years you have helped me as well but I would never consider setting up a booth at one of your shows or a store on etsy selling the same items. You know "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" I am sure you can lower your price and drive him off etsy but I have a feeling he or she will soon be gone any way.


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## terry603 (Jun 4, 2010)

agreed that is just not right


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

Did the guy know you sold them on etsy? If so, I would consider that poor judgement on his part, and maybe if they use some better judgement (by some miracle) they will stop and only sell locally. Probably be dissapointed, just as you stated.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

I'd be disappointed too. Have you approached them about the issue?

As you stated, the box joints and DT's are widely rampant on these cute little banks. I think there is plenty of room for variety and customizations to make them his own. But after helping him out with all the other little details, I'd think they'd have a little common courtesy.

I was in a very similar situation with another LJer. I helped him with some things and in return, he allowed me to make and sell his item but we agreed that I'd not sell them on a website or sell the plans. I've also admired other's work and contacted them about building their pieces as the focus point of a class. Some have graciously granted permission, some I never received a reply.

I guess common courtesy is not as common as it used to be.


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

that is really low… I feel your pain.


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## degoose (Mar 20, 2009)

All I can say is that you have been helpful to so many, including me… I am sad that someone who you have helped so much would consider doing such a thing… Morally reprehensible…


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## Built2Last (Nov 17, 2008)

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" In my years of building outdoor furniture I've had this happen to me more times than I cared for and I always had to remind myself of the preceding quote…


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## BobTheFish (May 31, 2011)

s#!t happens.

be happy you're able to get a better profit, and maybe start working on something a little different. Or modify and don't tell him how you've done it.

I don't mean to be, well, mean about it, but there's little you can really do.

I'm not exactly the type to get too upset when someone copies me. I have a million ideas that I can go to if something becomes old or dated (or copied). I can say its never happened to me, but at the same time, I've been more than willing to give any of my ideas away.

I'm sorry it happened though.


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## Bearpaw (Mar 19, 2008)

I have tried to ask permission and most of the times it was given. I give credit to someone's design when used and do not compete on their street corner. I have tried to give help and tips. This way everyone can get along to have fun, expand their knowledge, talent and maybe make a little money to support their hobby. Just watch whose tail you step on for it may be your own.


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

It's sad and very disheartening when a person takes advantage of another's good nature. Sorry to hear you had to experience this. It's happened to me many times in the past and I always just ask myself WTH did you help them for. I never seem to learn though.

Hope people can see through him and go with the originals.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

It's such a shame but, some people have absolutley no moral fiber, no scruples, no respect for others and likely feel no shame at all for what they have done.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

My suggestion is to continue to beat him at his game. Keep your pricing to where he can't compete. Market yours as "The Original". Also market as "Don't accept copies, buy from the original".

I agree that copying exactly is crap. The least he could have done was buy one of yours and copy it by himself in his shop. At least you would have made some money off of him.

Another idea is to send him a PM asking for a royalty or percentage of each sale, since you taught him everything he know. If he balks at that, how about charging for the lessons?


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## SSMDad (Apr 17, 2011)

Just a thought but since you corresponded by email and there are records of when you started posting your mailboxes on etsy, etc. Get an attorney to write a letter demanding a cease and desist or suffer an intellectual property copyright violation suit as well as a percentage of every sale of these boxes he's made. Then see how fast they disappear.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

I would post a link to his Lumberjocks page and expose the bastard.


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## rance (Sep 30, 2009)

Actually, it's not all that difficult to find him Greg. From what I saw though, his boxes are not 'just like closetguy's'. Close, but not the same. The wood is generally different, and he is using box joints rather than dovetails. The contrasting wood is even on the perpendicular face. If someone would have made those changes on a project here on LJ and posted it, the artistic difference would be clearly recognized and nothing would likely have been said about copying. As for hardware sources and such, its not that hard to find a brass screw or plate. As for methods of cleaning the doors and such, both closetguy and others have openly published some of this information.

I'm not crying 'foul' here, but as for shunning him off Etsy, the other guy has just as much right to sell there as anyone. He has some close in comparison but he also has some that are wildly different. And PO Banks are not his only product. If I were the other guy, then I think some more artistic 'changes' might be in order but I don't believe he should be expected to not sell PO Box Banks on Etsy. Closetguy's hand-holding is worth something, but he can't expect someone else to not come up with a completely different bank and not sell it on Etsy.

As we build time here on LJ, we get more proud of our Gallery as it were, and our reputation. I'm not sure a lynching is in order. Maybe a friendly confronting him, but its not worth trashing his reputation here on LJ is it? Has he already been confronted?

And then I could be totally wrong in who I think this other guy is.


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## REK (Aug 30, 2009)

I feel for you. I make a few bucks on the side with my projects, it allows me to work at home
without working OT on my regular job. Sneaky people do sneaky things. At my regular job,
methods of production - programs - procedures are all considered proprietary, your story
is not un common in manufacturing.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

Since I started building guitars with my weird twist two years ago, I have had numerous people - "Let me come and help you", or "How to you do that joint work so tight", and since I do a tonal chamber thing, lots of questions on the size of the chamber, how I relate it to the size of the guitar, on and on and on.
I have refused all. Politely, of course. If someone wants to buy one of my guitars and tear it apart, and copy it, then I would refer to the "Buy the Original" tactic, since it's tough to patent something like my design, and is expensive.
But I don't think I would ever let all of it out. It's fine to be a really nice person, and I try to be to all my customers, (traded 64 e-mails with one guy before I got the deposit!), but show them how I build them? Sorry, not gonna happen. and I won't post pics of the build progress. I put on one set on Facebook when it resembles a guitar so the new owner can see what they will be getting, and others can google over it.
You might want to think on how you can improve on your boxes. Just put one in front of you, finished, and imagine how it could be better. People will pay for quality, so a slight raise in price is OK. Just improve that wheel!! And never tell the public what you did.


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