# System Three Spar Varnish Failure



## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)




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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Charles, thank you very much for your Review and information!*

I recently finished a hand carved Sign for a cousin… originally planned to be Outside… Located in Paradise, CA… Northern Calif. about 50 miles North of Sacramento, near Chico.

I used a Penetrating Epoxy to really protect Live edges… Followed by a satin marine spar varnish… Looks great!
The varnish was done for the extra UV protection as you described.

They have not mounted it outside… are just enjoying it INSIDE in their living room.

I have just informed them… along with your video… In short, my message to them was…
"If I were you, I would keep on enjoying it Inside and NOT Outside."

The crazy thing… I studied hard to be sure I got the Best Exterior finish possible… The Penetrating Epoxy initial treatment WAS, I feel, a good step. Without it, I'm sure some of the edges would not have lasted over the years.

Funny… my very first thought of Finishing it was a few coats of BLO where it could be easily refreshed over the years to make it look again… LOL

Thank you very much for your Review… I needed that!

Joe

I will eventually post this sign as a Project…


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

Charles thanks for the heads up, this is almost as bad as the wood for humidifier boxes you had to deal with a ways back , down here we deal with it a lot of these issues in Louisiana , i just use cypress as much as i can and tell customers bleach it every now and then but then im also just a small shop
, , those are some great looking chaires do you have a cd or blog on them ,if a politician tell me something im not going to wait for it ,


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Sorry Eddie, I didnt do a video on the,chairs, the client is an arts and craft fan, so we kinda designed one similar to a Morris chair.

BTW Guys I do have to say all the walnut plugs were glued in with Tightbond III , I was scared to death we were going to have to TRY to drill out all those plugs and start over, but none failed Thankfully


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Charles,

Wow! That's a kick in your tush! Would a lye bath like we used to strip whole pieces of furniture work here?


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

We are having the pieces professionally stripped, and its not touching the mold, thus far the bleach, which actually is pool "shock it" mixed super strong, we power washed the pieces first and the mold is under the finish so where there was mold, ( look at the back in the video) , we were able to get it down to basically raw wood, then we bleached the @#$% out of it, then power washed again, to neutralize and then a bath with baking soda, now we are sanding our butts off,then a bath of Borax to kill the mold "roots" . We will let these dry super well and watch for any mold to return.

BTW, power washing wood isnt a real good idea, but this was white oak, and its hard and dense , and while we have alot of grain raising, it was done as a last resort"


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

That spar finish should not be on the market period.I doubt they'll change the direction on the label one bit , with all the extra steps you mentioned, no one's going to buy such product and let's not forget, the application process is to be repeated yearly, wow.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Distrbd,
Man I havent done anything, I still sanding and treating, 30 some odd pieces, its going to take a while. I plan to let these things dry for a month or 2 and watch for any signs of more mold, If so, I start over.

Guys transport from Vermont to here in Va is 4400.00 alone then getting them stripped another 38 to 4k or so, then we have to deal with the mold,and all the sanding and prep for whatever finish we decide to use, and if the mold re-appears, its start over, I have to stand behind my products.

This hurt … Sys3 , refused to pay anything


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

So much for System 3…

If they cannot stand behind their products, why should we take the chance by BUYING them?!

I will NOT BUY System 3 stuff ever again… There are others…


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## DocSavage45 (Aug 14, 2010)

Charles I watched the guys on this old house power wash before painting. Bought a power washer waaay Baack and found out what an happen to siding on my house. One time learning on that one!

Is there anyway to have insurance coverage or is that too expensive?


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## doubleDD (Oct 21, 2012)

Now I see and understand how involved you are on this issue. At least mine wasn't a finished product. If it wasn't for the challenge of figuring this one out, I'm sure it would be cheaper to rebuild all the chairs.


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## Kentuk55 (Sep 21, 2010)

Wow! What a mess. Hope they'll help you get them fixed up﻿


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Thank you for sharing your experience; for me, there is nothing worse than a "coating" failure on your project. When this happens most will points fingers- but when this happens to me I know that there is a reason, for the failure. Sure I get angry but sometimes it is my fault but other times theirs. I looked into "white Oak for outdoor furniture" and found this company that makes and sells outdoor white oak furniture, for it may be, of interest to some. https://www.sittineasy.com/ Currently, I am doing a test on Padauk, to prevent UV sun damage, by comparing 3 products on a test board- in 1 months time, one product is starting to "change" the other 2 are holding up (outdoors in AZ western exposure") I will post a review January 2017. Mr Neil, as a business man to another, thanks for the "heads up" on mold and may I respectfully suggest that you cover them with Zinzer Stain kill, then paint them. You could call them "Charles Neil limited edition Summer chair". Coatings, coatings and coatings ….


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## canadianchips (Mar 12, 2010)

Sorry to see the failure of finish.
Back in late seventies when Vans were popular I made running boards, flares, visor, bumper push bar, ladder and roof rack all out out OAK. Use a marine varnish, Looked nice …......first year. I could not keep a finish on it. Sun, water all took their toll. I finally removed them and made metal.
Iwas hoping in 40 years there would be a exterior finish for wood that lasts. I guess not yet !
Thankyou for making the video, always good to watch.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

I submitted a question to system 3 - https://support.systemthree.com/hc/en-us?return_to=%2Fhc%2Fen-us%2Frequests asking about a mold problem-
"Charles Neil (if you do not know who he is, then plase disregard my question) is posting that he is fustrated with your product, with no resolution. ( see Lumberjocks forum- ) Q: why would mold form on his "white oak" chairs or any other wood? I had a similar experience with quarter sawn .25 red Oak veneer cabient door panels. Shorthly after coating ,with 4 coats of lacquer- the mold devil's appeared! As a coating manfacturer can you offer advice to us woodworkers. I will respectfully post your answer if it enlightens fellow woodworkers?--" Woodworkers this should be an issue about "coatings"


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I tried System 3 about a year ago and couldn't really see much benefit over what I was doing.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> Thanks for the info. I tried System 3 about a year ago and couldn t really see much benefit over what I was doing.
> 
> - Monte Pittman


And what were you doing previously?


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## DirtyMike (Dec 6, 2015)

Thanks for the Information Charles, I hate to hear that something like this is happening at your expense. I consider you the finish expert of woodworkers. I had a similar situation with painting a large shop floor. Did everything correct, prepped properly, tested concrete moisture, everything per coating specs. 2 weeks later, paint was coming up. coating manufacture had a reason why it was my fault no matter what.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Folks, thanks so much for all the responses, I sure have alot to look at and consider, I will definitely be doing some more research , I will let you know what I decide to use, but it may be decided with a coin toss,


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## systemthree (Oct 5, 2016)

Charles, you have deleted anything that we have attempted to post to the comments section of your YouTube video, so I guess I will post here. I am going to paste the email that I sent you when you asked for feedback on your video so that your fans have some additional context.

---------------

Mr. Neil,

Randy has brought me up to speed, and I'll be your point of contact going forward. I'd like to first recap where we're at, and how we got here.

In the Fall of 2013, we sent you samples of our new varnish for your professional evaluation of its application characteristics. Your initial impressions were very positive and you requested additional samples - another 12 quarts of product, which we supplied to further your evaluation. You did not specify how you intended to evaluate these additional samples. We did not hear from you again until July, 2016 when you brought the chairs in your video to our attention.

Had you told us that you intended on using the additional samples to finish a large outdoor wood furniture project that would be subjected to sustained, harsh conditions, we would have recommended applying epoxy to the wood first, prior to applying varnish. This is the System Three standard, and you would have received this advice had you spoken with anyone at System Three prior to finishing. We would then have directed you to our Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood brochure, which has been readily available on our website for over 10 years. Furthermore, we would have suggested that you tell your client to put these chairs under cover during the winter to avoid wet freezing and thawing cycles - the proximate cause of the cracking in the varnish which led to the entry of mold and mildew.

There are a number of inaccuracies in your video:

• You claim to have discussed this project with us beforehand. As noted above, you did not do so. 
• You did not ask about the suitability of our varnish as a standalone finish for outdoor wood in harsh environments. We would not have recommended this as it would have been contrary to our published literature. 
• The brochure outlining our recommended approach to finishing outdoor wood is not a reaction to your situation. As stated, this has long been the System Three standard, and the brochure has been easily accessible on our website for many years.
• The Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood brochure recommends the use of our System Three Clear Coat epoxy. This is a thin epoxy easily brushed on all parts of the wood to prevent moisture cycling. It is not poured on the wood; it is brushed on the wood.

Your project failed because for whatever reason your client did not take proper care of the beautiful chairs you made for him and because you did not follow the guidelines in our brochure, Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood. There would have been no failure otherwise.

Sincerely,

Jeff


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## systemthree (Oct 5, 2016)

Further, I'll check in periodically on this thread through the end of the week. If you have questions, please post them here and I'll be happy to address them.

Thanks,
Jeff


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Oh No They DI'INT!!!

FINISHING WAR!!!!! It's ON.

(p.s. I'm not taking sides.)


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Yep, two sides to every story!

Product may have been a little misleading by not clearly stating that you need epoxy undercoating for exterior products??

Charles could have been a little negligent exploring the product completely?? 
(Apparently a rep was involved and the questions/uses were never addressed)??

Just curious, was the additional 12 quarts supplied to you the product that you used on the chairs?
If so, I don't think that was morally right. 
Using free sample product, meant for evaluation purposes, on a paying clients job?


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Charles is a full blown Finishing expert and when he screws up he admits it. I've talked to him a number of times when he said he talked to the company rep with many finishing products, I'm sure he told the rep what he was going to do and the rep didn't cover all the basis. When he was writing one of his books on finishing what took him so long is that he tested the products he was writing about before he would give details in his book, that took months and months to do.
When it comes to outdoor finishes the only way to test them is to put it on something and subject it to harsh conditions the products going to experience. Unless your "Consumer Reports" who can do that? I happen to know Charles paid full blown retail for the product,but even if he hadn't there's nothing wrong with using free samples ,the companies that give samples away only do it in expectations of getting some good advertising from well know people in the field that use it.is that morally right or is that bribery ?


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Charles is a full blown Finishing expert and when he screws up he admits it. I ve talked to him a number of times when he said he talked to the company rep with many finishing products, I m sure he told the rep what he was going to do and the rep didn t cover all the basis. When he was writing one of his books on finishing what took him so long is that he tested the products he was writing about before he would give details in his book, that took months and months to do.
> When it comes to outdoor finishes the only way to test them is to put it on something and subject it to harsh conditions the products going to experience. Unless your "Consumer Reports" who can do that? I happen to know Charles paid full blown retail for the product,but even if he hadn t there s nothing wrong with using free samples ,the companies that give samples away only do it in expectations of getting some good advertising from well know people in the field that use it.is that morally right or is that bribery ?
> 
> - a1Jim


I'll wait until Charles can confirm or deny it. You weren't there so you don't know. 
(unless you were there, were you?) 
I'll address your comments and my thoughts regarding samples later.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes a person can post a review, defame a product and there are posts that demonstrate bad products. This particular post gave his "opinion" or what he believes to be true. Then the company rep steps in and tells a different side to the story. In addition, the company spokesman tells us that he was "censored" on Neil's you tube channel; he even included the "documentation"? As Jbay stated I will wait for Charles Neil to speak in his own defense. I am a fan of Charles Neil but not as fervent as others who blindly jump to his defense. Mr. Neil without documentation on your part to verify your charges this doesn't look good for your side. For example, in the video you show a flyer from the company that that you say:"Now they have a brochure….." The company rep says that this has been available for 10 years. In conclusion: For me this a costly and heartbreaking thing to happen to a woodworker but if I were System3 I would sue you for defamation of my product. My advice do not reply any more "stuff" For there is a saying- "More people are hung with their tongue than rope" 
If the System3 rep is reading , can you send me 12 quarts of sample to "test"


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## upinflames (Jun 24, 2012)

Wait…..you mean…...he (MR. Finish Guru) misled folks…..surely you jest…..I have a BIL just like that…..


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

This is going to be interesting…

... how many Rounds is it scheduled for?


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

The original post is his opinion based on his experience with the company. Knowing Charles, I will gladly stand by his side. I believe any company spokesman will convincingly promote their companies position. Many people probably have good luck with their products. The product used in this instance failed. It happens.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Charles Video shows the stuff that he's made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there's always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> Charles Video shows the stuff that he s made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there s always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.
> - a1Jim


Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side? You are very similar to James Carvel the Demoractic spokesman, defending Hillary's email cover up. THIS FORUM IS ABOUT HOW TO HELP FELLOW WOODWORKERS! What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? A: to attack those who openly ask and question Charles Neil. My advice to Charles, keep your mouth shut..


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> This is going to be interesting…
> 
> ... how many Rounds is it scheduled for?
> 
> - Joe Lyddon


Joe until we find out; "how to stop the mold Devils " a coating does not fail by happenstance, again there is a reason for product failure. If you read my previous posts, this happened to me- All I want to know is how stop these tragic results, not only for my interest but to others on LumberJocks that read these posts, to learn from "mistakes" without being "censored"! Maybe Stumpy Nubbs can give his opinion for he is back.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? I guess we can be pretty brave and judgmental when we don't post a photo, real name,location or any information on our home page, should we conclude people like that are wanted some were or have something to hide? Perhaps they are friends with James Carvel ? Ha Ha ha


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

jbay
I can understand why you don't get someone standing up for a friend probably because you never had one.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

> Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side?
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Probably the 20+ pieces needing to be fixed…


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

> Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side?
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker
> 
> ...


Maybe so, but why is Charles mute? Again this would be a wise choice. The problem is about "mold" in a woodworkers finished product! I will probally use System3 in future projects, even if they don't give me 12 quarts of product to test.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

There is a time to talk and a time to listen, I am listening.
I like to fish, and something I learned along time ago , you do much better if you keep the bait in the water.

First off , we have nothing on our youtube channel from Sys3, and nothing has been blocked, perhaps his response was too large, I have had that happen, we do multiple short comments. I have no clue.

I will respond to all this in the next few days, With full documentation , not an issue.There is a lot of emails to sort thru from numerous folks.

Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn't going to touch this. We didn't have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.

Folks are down A1Jims back , but let me explain , Jim is a long time good friend, and to be blunt he is privileged to more info than you guys have been thus far.

I do agree with Desert, system three needs to sue me, they said if I released the video, they would . 
of course they said I threatened, them …Didnt happen, I send the video to them private on you tube and told them this was the video, and they could see the mass body of failure. End of story
they responded with

Charles -

Let's again recap where things stand.

On Friday, September 23rd, you sent us the link to your video and asked for our comments. Yesterday, September 28th, I replied with my thoughts and suggestions. You replied, "Not to worry, I am refilming the Video tomorrow, I'll make sure your points are addressed."

After that, you have:

• Again threatened the public release of a new video disparaging our brand and product

• Interfered with our business relationship with Woodcraft Supply

We will await publication of your video if this is the course of action that you decide to pursue. Be advised that after this point you will have given us little option but to turn all communications and material over to our attorney. You may want to consult with your own attorney before publishing additional content.

At this point it is not clear how you'd like to resolve this situation.

Jeff

Jeff Anderson | VP Sales & Marketing

800.842.3411 ext. 216 | [email protected]

Enough for now, we will be listening.

Much more to follow, when emails are sorted,


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

WADR, (and free speech notwithstanding) LJ isn't the place for the issue in the stage it is in.

Mr. Neil and, and should update when the issue has been resolved.

I submit the mod should close the thread.


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## bonesbr549 (Jan 1, 2010)

Ok I'll stand by Charles any day of the week. when a company threatens an attorney to shut someone up that tells me all I need to know.

Hang in there Charles.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn t going to touch this. We didn t have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.
> 
> - CharlesNeil


Thanks for your explanation Charles,

"Folks are down A1Jims back"

Sometimes people start stuff instead of minding their own business. I had a simple question I was asking YOU.
If you go back and read his comments, he was the one being rude.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

rwe2156

The issue is resolved , they have refused to do anything.

Mr. Neil,

We have examined all of the evidence at our disposal along with the video that you produced regarding the mildew issue on the chairs.

The failure comes down to the following factors:

1. Your customer should have brought the furniture indoors or otherwise protected it during the Vermont winter. Freeze/thaw cycles cracked the thin varnish coat and allowed moisture to enter the wood, promoting mildew growth. It is your customer who has caused this problem - not System Three or its products.

2. Despite the negligence of your customer, had you followed the guidelines in our brochure Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood and applied 2-3 coats of Clear Coat epoxy followed by 2-3 coats of varnish there likely would not be a problem today. This brochure was written by us over ten years ago and has been available through our web site since publication.

3. We supplied you with 12 quarts of varnish as part of a beta testing program for this product. Had you told us what you planned to do with this we would have recommended following the guidelines in the above brochure and likely pointed out that 12 quarts could not possibly provide sufficient protection without the epoxy base.

We bear no responsibility for this problem and so you will receive no compensation from us for it.

Jeff

Jeff Anderson | VP Sales & Marketing

800.842.3411 ext. 216 | [email protected]


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

> Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side?
> 
> - DesertWoodworker
> 
> ...


Sorry, it was humor. I'll refrain in the future.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Ok lets use a little common sense, here, .. the infamous brochure here is the add copy from sys3 , you read it for your self, and then find the brochure, its on herehttps://www.systemthree.com/products/marine-spar-varnish

now here is the product and add copy from Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/product/847115/system-three-spar-varnish-satin-quart.aspx

Now let me ask you a question if you were me, and you read both of these copies, and had spoken with system three who assure you it would work, would you go looking for a brochure on their website.

Better yet walk in a retail store and pick it up and read the can… nothing whatsoever about epoxy.
But supposedly they are changing the label .. thats another story for another day.I have a finishing class in process.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Charles Neil best to you and thank you for your contributations to the industry. In conclusion, for me this post was about a product failure and the relationship between the supplier and customer. I am looking forward to hearing about the outcome of a ruined project. Also, I will recant "I will use System3 products"


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

Charles, thanks for your video and your followup comments. I always enjoy your posts here on LJs. I think that you summed things up the best when you said at the beginning of the video that your mistake was that you trusted a finish company. 
You and Bob Flexner should go have a beer sometime and talk about all the ridiculous claims finish manufacturers make.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

in case you didnt find the brochure, look under recommended uses , I feel sure you would be looking there ,its so bold and in your face, how could you possibly miss it .. https://www.systemthree.com/products/marine-spar-varnish
if ya still missed it here is the actual brochure,https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1000/1906/files/Outdoor_wood_finishing.pdf?15570102553596296216 be sure to read the front and back and then tell me if you would actually do what it says. I sure wouldn't , I mean, and then say it's only good for a year or 2, why not do what we going to do, use a penetrating oil , and at least we wont have to strip all that " stuff" off to reapply finish


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

I think we have made our point and our case, so as far as i am concerned this discussion is closed until we decide what to use. Thats up to sys3.

I am looking hard at a product called one time, its a penetrarting oil, I also tested this, about 3 years or so ago, I simply brushed it on some not so nice plywood in one of my guys trailer floor, its worn now but the plywood looks great, and no mold or mildew. But still looking at other finishes, . At least with the One Time I have a long term test. Any one else tried it.

http://onetimewood.com/

We will keep you posted .


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback so I won't.
I did see this in there technical data sheet:

NOTES:
When used alone, as much as 9-12 coats of varnish are
commonly used to protect marine brightwork. When used over 2-
3 coats of System Three SilverTip epoxy resin, as little as 2-3
coats will provide superior saltwater and UV-light protection.
For health and safety information concerning this product, please
refer to the Material Safety Data Sheet for Spar Urethane Varnish.

I can't imagine having to use 9 - 12 coats.

I'm not going to take sides since it's a he said she said deal, but it was a pretty big risk to take knowing film finishes don't hold up well. I wouldn't even think of using one here in the desert. Won't see mold but you can guarantee cracking.

Anyway, as a business man, I hate to see anybody have to eat work. I do feel for you. I would hate to have to deal with that.

I'm thinking rebuilding and penetrating oil. 
Maybe you can get some of the kids to clean up the old ones good enough to paint and resale to recoup a little of the loss.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Jbay 
In my post I gave my opinion about the video,which I'm entitled to do as much as you if not more,given Charles is a friend of mine.Lets be clear I named no one by name and didn't even say it was anyone in this thread that Charles had to deal with in the past,so if you took it on yourself that I was referring to you when I talked about trolls then we might know what you think your role on LJs must be.With your post you made assumptions that I was talking about others in this thread, seems a bit like paranoia like to me. I address no post to you until attacked me not the other way around,
"(That's all I wanted to hear before your biggest fan attacked me.)

"Ha Ha ha, very clever Jim! One paragraph you manage to call me/others a troll, jealous, judge and jury and make accusations of taking sides. Your lips are so far up his ass you couldn't make an independent decision one way or the other. Why don't you just let Charles handle it. He knows way more about it than you do.
"Original comment was to Charles. (not his Chihuahua side kick)"

Many times your "MO" has involved Judging others,playing God ,acting as LJs law enforcement,and never admit one of your ideas could possibly wrong or another person's idea could possibly be correct . 
I blocked you some time ago because of these repeated actions on my threads.

Your knowledgeable guy and give some great advice on LJs If your issue with me is that you think when I post I'm saying I'm more knowledgeable or experienced than you ,then Ill admit here and now you'er more experienced than myself and more knowledgeable in a lot of categories.

This is my last post on this thread so if you're so inclined fire away.
Peace!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

give me a link to that, i have never seen that before either, but as a 50 year finisher, that much finish is going to crack and fail . you cant do that many "mills" , just saying . Its not a he said she said, what i have posted, I had hoped would be sufficient, oh there is alot more , from not only system three, but others, but I dont want to flame it, or involve others, There is an old cliche , " make sure your right then go ahead" . Im good to go, and I know folks like a good drama, Im not interested unless forced. not my call.

I personally would prefer to put this to rest, but…..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pontic (Sep 25, 2016)

Next time use a Polyester epoxy. More UV resistant. The most Ideal is pure addition set Silicone acetate. it will stay clear and sealed forever. SiCOOH(3)=O very UV stable because it is the crosslinked product of SiCOOH(2)-OH when exposed to UVlight. So silicone compounds get stronger when exposed to UV light. Military uses it for Naval applications for a while now. It will stick to wood.

industry uses it


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> give me a link to that, i have never seen that before either, but as a 50 year finisher, that much finish is going to crack and fail . you cant do that many "mills" , just saying . Its not a he said she said, what i have posted, I had hoped would be sufficient, oh there is alot more , from not only system three, but others, but I dont want to flame it, or involve others, There is an old cliche , " make sure your right then go ahead" . Im good to go, and I know folks like a good drama, Im not interested unless forced. not my call.
> 
> I personally would prefer to put this to rest, but…..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> - CharlesNeil


I'm assuming this is the same product, but I could be wrong.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1000/1906/files/Spar_Varnish_TDS_781e56b2-fdd1-419d-90b6-892bf4e4283d.pdf?169125436407695548


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> Jbay
> In my post I gave my opinion about the video,which I m entitled to do as much as you if not more,given Charles is a friend of mine.Lets be clear I named no one by name and didn t even say it was anyone in this thread that Charles had to deal with in the past,so if you took it on yourself that I was referring to you when I talked about trolls then we might know what you think your role on LJs must be.With your post you made assumptions that I was talking about others in this thread, seems a bit like paranoia like to me. I address no post to you until attacked me not the other way around,
> "(That's all I wanted to hear before your biggest fan attacked me.)
> 
> ...


Like I said Jim, you are very clever!


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

guys this could get out of hand real quick, it doesnt need to, we are all adults here, lets take a deep breath and stick to the issue at hand, Please, 
I have worked long and hard to build all these pieces, and in the end I got hammered by another finish company, but not my first rodeo, trust, me. In this case I had enough, and decided, "no more", so I went to bat, and here we are.

I would prefer, to let the evidence speak for itself, the so called documentation sys3 has thus far provided is simply accusations they cant substantiate, and an email they them selves concocted, to suit their needs, again, nothing not expected .

Im tired and going home, in a bit, class is about over, they are all spraying, not well, but that we will fix that tomorrow, ..


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

jbay, read your link again, its saying the same thing, as their ad copy, it says you CAN use it over epoxy, no where does it say you "have " to use epoxy.

They are trying to promote this product as a stand alone, and its not, but the epoxy and the brochure are a nice fence to hide behind, sorry folks im gone


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

> jbay, read your link again, its saying the same thing, as their ad copy, it says you CAN use it over epoxy, no where does it say you "have " to use epoxy.
> 
> They are trying to promote this product as a stand alone, and its not, but the epoxy and the brochure are a nice fence to hide behind, sorry folks im gone
> 
> - CharlesNeil


No, I understand. No mention of having to use epoxy. I agree it's misleading.
I was just commenting on the 9-12 coats, which is pretty outrageous to me.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

folks im going to ask again, keep it civil and on topic, again, I have been hammered with emails and so forth almost a week, now, but I felt like this needed to be put out and addressed, .
So I did, you dont have to choose sides or agree, but at least be civil.


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## 000 (Dec 9, 2015)

Jim, I apologize.
After thinking about your comment, I don't mean to come off that way. My main goal is and has always been to try and help if I can. Sometimes I may be in a foul mood and perhaps comment when I shouldn't.
Sorry


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Jbay, I agree, again, all of the procedures they recommend are ludicrous , I mean come on

Time to move on.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Jbay
Thank you ,apology accepted. Have a good one.
Jim


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

jbay, thank you , Jim is a super guy, this woodworking thing and especially finishing can get real opinionated , and there are so many products, it can sure get frustrating, some times we just have to take a deep breath and calm down.

Unless your me , and your telling my people stuff that isnt right, then , well point made.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

9-12 coats is insane, you'd loose money on labor alone even if the product (any product) was free!


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*Charles, et al,
*
This is the way I finished a Sign that was going to be OUTSIDE…
... a hand-carved sign that took several hours and work to do.

So far, they like to look at the sign in their Living room so they can see it all of the time!
... looks like it's going to be living INSIDE now instead of Outside… 

*BUT,* this is what I did to Finish it for the Outside, after much study…
I hope it helps everyone concerned…

=====================================

*Sign for a cousin in Paradise, CA

By Joe Lyddon, August 2016

Finishing procedure:*

I had to Finish these signs so they would be protected from Ultra Violet light, which literally destroys any finish that is NOT protected.

Parts of the sign, around hump in the middle-top, were very soft and subject to Fast deterioration; therefore, I had to find a way to stabilize and protect that wood so it would last for Years… and still look Natural as much as possible.

I felt I had to stay away from GLOSSY fake looking finishes; as a result, I selected the Satin finish.
The First product that I used was a Penetrating Epoxy product that literally penetrated the wood to really establish a deep area of protection… This product also recommended that a Spar Varnish, with UV protection be applied for MORE UV protection. Two products were used to do the job.

*1. The Penetrating Epoxy used for two coats...*

*TotalBoat Penetrating Epoxy Kits*

TotalBoat Penetrating Epoxy is a low-viscosity wood rot restoration and repair solution that seals deeper & cures stronger than industry-leading penetrating epoxies. It contains no VOCs and has no smell.

This 2:1 system is ideal for restoring rotten or damaged wood, or sealing new wood for lasting protection against humidity, salt, *mold & mildew*. TotalBoat Penetrating Epoxy works by gluing cellulose (wood) fibers back together, sealing a porous wood surface from the inside out. Once cured, this epoxy is 100% waterproof.
Surfaces may be painted or varnished over after light sanding. TotalBoat Penetrating Epoxy may be applied by brush, roller, or injected via syringe. Acetone can be mixed with the epoxy resin solution in equal volume to double the penetrating power.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=97636

*2. The Spar Varnish used for two coats...*

*TotalBoat Gleam 2.0 Spar Varnish*

TotalBoat Gleam is a marine spar varnish featuring a high-quality tung oil formula, with a phenolic resin base and added UV inhibitors. It's ideally suited for clear coating on interior and exterior surfaces requiring maximum water and UV resistance.

New Gleam version 2.0 features improved overcoating and cure times, yields medium build per coat with excellent flow-out, leaving a smooth, durable surface that can be scuffed and overcoated faster than before to build gloss as needed. Use xylene (Xylol) as a thinner for spraying applications only.

Available in high-gloss and *satin* finishes that are weather resistant and easy to work with over new wood and previously coated surfaces.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=97698&familyName=TotalBoat+Gleam+2.0+Spar+Varnish

This Finish should last for Years… should it show signs of deterioration, sign should be cleaned, lightly sanded with 300 grit, and recoated with the Gleam 2.0 Spar Varnish Satin.

=====================================

*The rest of the story has yet to happen…*

I feel like I did do the right thing by using the Penetrating Epoxy product… because there were Live edges that could NOT last very long, if not protected in some way.

I'm not sure, now, about the rest of the job… we shall see…

I have warned them using this thread & video of what COULD happen… I also suggested that they Keep it Inside, to last for Many Many years, instead of Outside, where all kinds of bad things could happen.

*Good Luck to Y'all…*


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Finishing is such a pain in the ass. CharlesNeil must be a very patient guy.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

Update: this is how a professional woodworking company finishes "white Oak" https://www.sittineasy.com/care-maintenance/


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## Trapshter (Nov 5, 2011)

I have read this thread and watched the video. I have to say just simply this, Charles has been a reliable asset to all of us. If you ask, he answers with truthful decisive answers that just work. Well, at least that has been my experience! I don't claim to have used this product, nor will I after reading this. Why would I or any of you take that chance. I know none of you would like to take that project back into your shop to redo with no compensation. My God NO. Not this guy. 
The label states-"This high solid finish was designed for marine and exterior surfaces such as boats, outdoor furniture, doors or any exterior surface where a clear satin finish is desired. It contains Ultraviolet Light Absorbers, which offer excellent protection from the sun. Formulated to protect against the harshest salt water and marine environments, it will provide long lasting protection for your outside projects." I don't know about you guys but that would be enough for me to reasonably think it would be a good choice for what he used it for.
That being said it amazes me truly how many people after seeing the results are so willing to side with yet another company that makes false claims. False advertising has become an epidemic and yet we tolerate it. WHY? Here is a guy who has posted his experience with a product used for its intended use as far i'm concerned and it failed. We should be saying thank you for the heads up. NO some want to cast dispersions about his character, experience, morals, and business practices. SMH 
A wise man on this site quoted "We deserve what we tolerate" We need to stand together and let companies know what works and what DOES NOT, so they produce products we can support and not support those that DO NOT.
Thats just me. Kudos to Charles for standing up for what he believes and not tolerating False claims.


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## Ken90712 (Sep 2, 2009)

Charles, so sorry for this trouble your experiencing. Great video and THX for sharing. You might not remember but you heled me through two different finishing problems. One was dye on an entertainment center out of Knotty Alder and the other waswalnut outdoor table finish. Both were successful.

Hope this works out for you, sound like rebuild is the best solution thus far, good luck.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Beautiful work, Glad i could help.


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

A fair critique would be to demonstrate a chair made from the same batch of wood covered in different finish that withstood the elements better. What if the wood was already contaminated by mildew before the finish for example?


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

> A fair critique would be to demonstrate a chair made from the same batch of wood covered in different finish that withstood the elements better. What if the wood was already contaminated by mildew before the finish for example?
> 
> - Carloz


He did show a chair that was made at the same time, with the same finish. It was stored inside, and it had no issues at all. Check out the video he's referencing, he talks about it at the very beginning of the video, so you don't even have to watch it all ;-)


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## Carloz (Oct 12, 2016)

You got me puzzled. Of course inside, with no access to moisture mildew will not develop even if it is present under the coat. *Any *finish allows moisture in, otherwise we would not be bothered with wood stability. 
Do a simple thing. Take two (better four or even eight) boards, cover with "bad" and "good" finish and put outside. Check in a couple of months and proudly present the proof. Nobody would take a biology scientist for example seriously who does not duplicate his experiment on unaffected by his drugs test subject.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I didn't see the "different finish" when you posted before, my apologies.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Carloz, 32 pieces, covered with Mold, no offense, but I think i have tested enough. To repeat, this was kiln dried white oak, and we are presently testing OTHER products, but if you wish please feel free to do your test .


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Mosquito,
We are presently testing other products, all are penetrating oil finishes,


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

I look forward to the results. The finish is a large reason why I've never wanted to make anything for outdoor use


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## gargey (Apr 11, 2016)

Just use teak and leave it alone (no finish). Don't fight nature, let it turn gray, it looks good.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Gargey, a little late , 32 pieces done and finished, I am really leaning towards a product called One Time, I tested it about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago on plywood on an old trailer, I probably stated this before, and I forgot about it , but went and looked, that plywood is worn, but this trailer has been used and used, and the plywood is looking good, I will get photos, later, in any event its done what it said, I just ordered some samples to see which color I want. Will keep you posted .

BTW I have no affiliation with One time whatsoever, totally my own experience and my call.


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

CN- Thank you for the replies. I am looking forward to seeing you solve this. For those who want to know more about "OneTime" http://onetimewood.com/


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Thanks Desert, I meant to post a link, Again I have no affiliation , just this trailer, and the plywood, Ill get photos, up..


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

*I found this One Time source*=, which has better prices along with reasonable Shipping costs.

They have a *multitude of Colors.*

*Question:*

*Are these pigmented Colors or what?*

If Pigmented, I would be more concerned… If not, and it ALL penetrates regardless of color, I think that would be better…


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Joe, they do have colored stains, Pigmented , it would have to be to get color, All i know is it seems to be working well . More to follow


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Folks, this thing has resurrected itself, but some things have changed, i really didnt want an all out War with system three, , but then again, I didnt release that video unless I KNEW i had my A** covered, be in touch ..


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## JoeLyddon (Apr 22, 2007)

... oops… posted 2 times… deleted one here…


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Joe pigmented products do better, just sit tight, 
ill get photos of the trailer and hopefully get the folks from One time to respond,Im not a chemist, I just look at what works, Im like everyone else , I just want the truth. Finish companies seem to have an issue with that,


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## distrbd (Sep 14, 2011)

> Folks, this thing has resurrected itself, but some things have changed, i really didnt want an all out War with system three, , but then again, I didnt release that video unless I KNEW i had my A** covered, be in touch ..
> 
> - CharlesNeil


That's good to hear charles.there's nothing wrong with keeping manufacturers, advertisers accountable for what they claim.


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

Distrdb,
Thank you, system three has made it plain, im on my own, and so be it, but the goal is to prevent others from tripping over the same rock, but then again, it goes a little deeper, ....Tomorrow..

I mean to out right lie to folks to sell a product .. Im sorry, think of me what you will, but when it comes to this finishing thing, if they want to go head to head, after 50 years of experience, ..BRING IT .

Sorry folks, im a little POed , share tomorrow, time to go home and settle down…

BRIng it


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## Desert_Woodworker (Jan 28, 2015)

This is getting like WiKi Leaks for Woodworkers- 
Recap from my perspective as woodworker and not a lawyer: CN has a problem with a "coating" and mold. Big time problem, big…. (Just put aside labels and manufacturers instruction for later) The product (film coating) cracked in the winter and Mold got in. Ruined project. White oak has been used for years in outdoor projects. What type of protection was/is used? From my research it is an "Oil coating" that they have success with. CN is trying"Oil" from http://onetimewood.com/ I bet he will succeed with this. 
Conclusion: White oak for outdoor furniture- What is the most successful "Oil" or "Film"?
Answer: I know better to state my answer so I'll use a pic!










When at a fishing camp do you want to maintain a white oak chair, with the maintenance or fish?


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## USMCWally (Feb 15, 2015)

@CharlesNeil Mr. Neil,

Long time follower and lurker… Was going to send you a PM but don't have enough posts on here to accomplish that. So… I was just wondering if you found a solution to finishing White Oak to be used outdoors. I know you said you were looking for another solution.

Thank you for your time.

Mike 
Boise, ID.


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## zzzzdoc (Mar 6, 2010)

Charles:

Seeing this thread got me really scared. I used System 3 Marine Spar Varnish, per your advice, on a Titanic Deck chair replica that I worked on building for a year.

I used their penetrating epoxy first, and so far, in only 6 months of South Florida sun, it looks like new.

I would have liked to have seen the video, as it would be interesting to see how badly things could have gone in different circumstances.

That being said, I'm still very happy for the wonderful advice you have given me (including the above, as it looks great so far), as well as all the education I picked up in your finishing class.

And in harsh environmental conditions, bad things can happen to finishes. I have lots of pictures of a fire pit table cover that I built out of cypress and finished with General Finishes Exterior 450. It totally rotted and became moldy in two years out here in the sun. Some much for their exterior finish. Hostile environment is hostile environment. Period.

Alan


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## CharlesNeil (Oct 21, 2007)

There isnt alot to add, we are going with the One Time finish, we have had sample boards out all winter , and they look like new , the old trailer bed is still going strong… We power washed everything , treated with bleach, then borax and baking soda, , then sanded every thing, and have just let it sit to see if any more mold would show up , and nothing, so now we will finish up with the one time

Alan,. you used the epoxy first.. which hopefully will protect , Wish i had been told that , rather than depending on finding it buried in a second page add.

Time will tell , the whole story.. but i am convinced a penetrating finish is what you need rather than a film , and its alot easier to renew.


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