# Really, now...Are ALL workplace accidents avoidable?



## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

This is the bold statement of this province's safety board! *ALL Accidents Are Preventable*! With the TV ads, and billboards, they're trying to impress this message upon everyone. How does one come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as an "Accident"? Is the Workmen's Compensation board just looking for some wiggle room for dubious claims? As I understand it, there apparently is a need to NOT accept accidents as a necessary by-product of industrial activity. These slips, trips and falls, burns, injuries and other incidents that sometimes happen, in the words of the safety literature, are not to be thought of as merely accidents, but of failure to foresee the potential for something to go wrong. Therefor, 100% Human Error!
So, I wonder..is it logical to believe that 100 percent of workplace accidents are preventable?


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## PurpLev (May 30, 2008)

yes


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

Depens..

You may have done everything in your power to avoid getting the cat angry, but

when she decides to use your sawdust as a litter box just as you start that fine angle cut…

Well, concentration's lost and so's the tip of the cats nose !

Hmm, for the cat that may be seen as an accident..for you..devine retribution..

But seriously, 100% ????

Not likely, especialy if there's more than one person in a work space..we've got 8 to ten trades people in our workplace weekdays now doing a 6 figure reno and I'm amazed nobody on staff's gotten beaned by a passing light fixture, sheet of drywall or been electrocuted making coffee !
The trades know what they're doing, but I know most of my co workers have no idea when to duck and when to SIT ! STAY !..


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## richgreer (Dec 25, 2009)

I believe there are accidents that could not have been prevented by any means other than not doing the work. I had a large piece of walnut fly off the lathe and hit me very hard in the face. I later determined that there was a flaw in the wood that was not visible on the outside. I admit that the damage (9 stitches) could have been reduced with a face shield, but that would not have prevented the accident from happening.

While rare, there are also accidents due to equipment failure. For example, if a band saw blade were to break due to a flaw in the metal or weld. .

However, I agree that most accidents are preventable.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the great replies! It is starting to make me wonder, as I have received various emails at work, and also some provincial press releases, about an awfully scary change in the labor statutes, that is, that individuals working in a job setting may be found liable for creating a dangerous situation if it results in an injury to another employee. Say 'Joe' parked a forklift because it was leaking hydraulic oil. 'Bob' comes by, and slips in a spill of the oil. Joe could be found negligent, and deemed personally liable for Bob's injuries. I recall, years ago, a woman fell sick from oil-smoke fumes which were vented outside properly, however the Plant Manager did not know that the intake unit for the rooftop furnace was exactly downwind of the vent stack on certain days. Long story short, he was sued, the claimant was victorious, and this guy lost his home, his job, and ultimately his marriage. The curious clause in US labor law is this concept of "Joint and Several Liability". By this parameter, she had the right to sue not only her employer, but specific individuals thought to be at the root cause of the problem. And now I see the concept has worked its way into Canada. This is frightening, I'd always assumed that an employers' liability insurance had deep enough pockets to cover any workplace incident, but as I understand it, a judgement can be made even for punitive damages!!! Without ever setting foot in a courtroom!!! So for heaven's sake, be careful out there!


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## Tim29 (Oct 10, 2009)

Of course they are 100% avoidable. Here is the surefire, no hassle, absolute, can't miss way to avoid an accident. 
It goes like this.

Avoid the work.

There are ways of deterring accidents such as having all safety guards in place, paying attention, having all loose articles of clothing and hair tied back, etc. But you can do all of those things and still get hurt. The only for sure way to not get hurt is to not do the job. But then how much would ever get done anywhere.
Mike Rowe did a special episode of Dirty Jobs on this subject called "Safety Third". He brought up some very good points.
Having said that however, I think that most accidents are avoidable. Keep your mind on the task at hand is the most important safety rule.


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

Absolutely. You can completely avoid the workplace, thus avoiding workplace accidents…


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## Tim_456 (Jul 22, 2008)

other than staying home under the covers..

it is possible to prevent all accidents, however it is not probable to prevent all accidents. There will always be a class of accidents attributed to things that would be cost prohibitive to prevent. As mentioned above, a hidden flaw in the wood or in a weld COULD be prevented but the cost and time to analyze everything and then prevent something would put us all out of business (even if the business is fun). Basically we play the odds and prevent the ones we can but one can never make something 100% safe. Something unanticiapted always go wrong.


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## hokieman (Feb 14, 2008)

Not all accidents are preventable. Most accidents occur due to human error and many of those are due to mental lapses. Unless you have perfect human beings, there will be mental lapses and when those lapses occur under the wrong conditions the accident occurs. You can engineer our all risk. The only way to be accident free is to eliminate mental lapses which is impossible. It all comes down to managing risk to acceptable levels. What that acceptance level is is up to the individual.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

People are not machines, and so fail more…than machines, which fail, as well. I'm a little surprised at the employee being held responsible for injury to another employee in the event of a mechanical failure like an oil leak. I'd think that the employee/contractor responsible for the repair would be more at fault. But then, I'm a logical guy who expects a lot of the same from the rest population, and is thus frequently disappointed. Stupidity is not a cornered market. And the amount of stupidity seems to be increasing rapidly, lately.


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## CanadaJeff (Jul 8, 2008)

I have yet to hear about an accident where in retrospec a suitable and preventable measure couldn't have changed the outcome. I would challenge anyone to describe a scenario where a no other measures would have prevented it. There may be some freak incidents, however if you are taking proper precautions and thinking ahead there is always away to avoid accidents.


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## SCR0LL3R (May 28, 2010)

This is something that really gets my goat. I just think it's a very dangerous way of thinking. I worked in the food industry and between safety regulations and sanitation regulations, it's a wonder how anything got done. If we followed all the rules that we were supposed to, we wouldn'thave had a product to sell because nobody would be willing to pay the cost.

It's all going too far. There is always somebody who can get sued….what a way to live! I can go on and on about this matter but fortunately I gotta go to bed . Maybe tomorrow.


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## Manitario (Jul 4, 2010)

There is a whole science devoted to studying accident causes. I think that there are several different types of accidents:
-obviously avoidable accidents, eg. failing to use proper safety equipment, using a tool without proper training etc, -accidents which happen because of human error despite proper training and safety equip. eg. accidentally leaning on the "on" switch for the TS when lining up a board for a cut and having it kick back suddenly
-freak, unforseeable, not preventable accidents.

Most of the workplace safety stuff concentrates on #1; which makes sense because I think most of the accidents that happen are as a result of people being careless, or not using proper safety equipment. 
The second category of accidents is mainly preventable by better tool design; eg. a recessed "on" switch for a TS. Another example would be the use of GCFI receptacles in wet areas; no-one plans to electrocute themselves, and most people are not stupid enough to go around throwing water on electrical boxes, but electrical engineers realized that "accidents" happen and developed a switch that could cut off the current should a ground fault occur.

I think that you're right in that you can't prevent 100% of accidents. I worked for a summer with Manitoba Hydro, in which we had to fill out a "Hazard Report" for every job we did. This got a little bit stupid after awhile, and I think made us care even less about safety.


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## boboswin (May 23, 2007)

The vast majority of "accidents" are a testimonial to the hypothesis behind Darwinism.
I suppose you could legislate stupidity and carelessnes but legislation seems to have little or no effect on crime so I hold out little hope for it.
I thinkyou just have to factorr a part of the problem into the reality of life.


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## longgone (May 5, 2009)

Definitely avoidable and preventable…Total focus and concentration along with common sense will do the job.


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## Wolffarmer (Jul 14, 2009)

Accidents are 100% preventable. Stay home on your couch watching TV.

Randy


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

I think the better way to say "avoid the work" is to point out that there's a continuum: Everything we do is a trade-off between safety and the costs (which aren't necessarily dollars) of getting things done.

Many of my accidents (usually in the kitchen) happen because I want to get done faster. Or because I don't know how to make a cut and don't think through the consequences of what'll happen when the saw actually lops off that portion of the irregular log.

If you want a sobering look at how far some industries go to look at and eliminate accidents, go read NTSB reports of aviation accidents some time. They'll trace the cause of a crash back to some portion of pilot error, some portion of design problem, some portion of mechanic error. So, yeah, there's a chance the carbide tip on that cutter could unexpectedly fly off, but if you've got unlimited money to spend on fixing that problem you could go back and say "how do we change the welding procedure to make that bond more consistent".

Ages ago I took up rock climbing, and the thing that improved my climbing most was learning that there was quite a difference between what my reflexes thought my limits were, and what my limits to actually hold on to something were. There were times when my body said "no way am I gonna pull up on that small a hold", and learning how to override that feeling was essential to becoming a better climber.

The counter of that is true for safety: Slower. More attentive. More margin to recover from error. All of those things will lower the accident rate, but some of those things are really hard to do. Especially combining "slower" and "more attentive".


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

ALL Accidents Are Preventable is the mantra at the oil company that I work for. From what I can see much of the time the company manages to make a good faith effort working toward that goal and it's made a significant difference. A lot of equipment and procedures have changed for the better. The whole point is to face up to the realities of what you intend to do, recognize what bad things can happen, and put barriers in place to reduce the chance of those things happening, and to reduce the harm that results when they *do* happen.

Rich brings up a couple of situations that I think are good examples of preventable accidents. You cannot always predict whether a work piece is going to explode on the lathe, but you can use equipment and techniques that will reduce if not eliminate the harm to you when something flys off. You cannot predict when a band saw blade is going to snap, but you can get a pretty good idea where it will go when it does, so plan for that.

I must admit, however, that I've got no clue what to do about the risk of a piece of carbide coming off a TS blade or router bit.


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## DaddyZ (Jan 28, 2010)

Have you ever stubbed your toe ? Did it hurt ? Then why did you do it ?

Accidents Happen, Not a perfect World


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg, on protecting yourself from disintegrating bits: You can stay out of the line of rotation of saw blades. You can can stay out of eye level of router bits, and wear heavy clothing (or leather aprons).

At some point the cost of preventing some accidents rises beyond the value of preventing them, but as I get older I head more towards "spend the money on prevention".


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Dan - Heavy clothes aren't very practical in a Houston garage much of the year. One guideline I've heard for the TS is to stay left of the left miter slot or right of the right miter slot, but I don't do a very good job at that. Thinking about it a bit more, at the router table the plane of rotation is pretty much covered up by the table, work, and fence (which I use for dust collection and guards when I'm not using it for the cut). so maybe I'm not doing so bad there.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Greg, yep: sweat is a cost of safety!

The place I've put myself in the path of danger with the router was learning to use a dovetail jig. I still have this irrational want to get down low and see where the bit is rather than just depending on the feel of the guide bushing. Maybe I can put a mirror on the dust collection slider thingy…


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

P-CAT..
see what U started again !!!!!

And Dan n' Greg..
Duck and cover is what my instructors said..(but the mirror's a great idea !)

;-)


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## dusty2 (Jan 4, 2009)

My two shop accidents were definitely avoidable.

All I would have had to do is not put my hands in the "red zone". One would think that after doing this once it would never happen again. As Gomer would say "Surprise, Surprise".


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

All accidents are preventable.. period.

However the cost of preventability plays a major roll in this statement.

When an accident occurs it should always be followed by a thorough fact finding investigation to determine the cause of the "accident" to determine preventability. Not the cause of the "injury" if there is one, as people confuse these two different items. For example, when the wood blew apart in the lathe.. how could this have been prevented?

Questions need to be asked, until the answer is found.

1. What is the origin of the material or wood?
2. Was this piece harvested, stored, transported, handled in accordance with methods for properly maintaining the integrity of this species?
3. Was a sonic test completed to determine the stability of the material before it was placed in the lathe?

Well.. you get my point… where do you draw the line at spending money to prevent the "accident", or material from exploding in the lathe?

All accidents are preventable, but as has been said many times in this post, at what cost, and in what kind of a time frame? I could not imagine someone spending probably weeks and a few thousand dollars, testing a piece of material to ensure this table leg is not going to expode while in the lathe. It would be easier, faster, and more cost effective to take proper steps to prevent an "injury" in case something did go wrong. After all, your Personal Protective Equipment is your last line of defense in the case of an "accident"

*Dan.. *I agree with Glen.. the mirror idea rocks..!!!

Gator


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

Gator: you are undoubtedly correct, and I think of one industry that is scrupulous in accident investigation as an example: The NTSB. Is it the cost of litigation behind all this? Must we deny the random-universe theory of unexplained events, in order to achieve two goals: To identify beyond all doubt who is at fault, AND so that the right person or entity gets sued?? I mean, yikes, if I drove a forklift and didn't test the shear-strength of the mast bolts, and the next guy to hop on it drops a 3-ton load of bricks on someone's head because the mast fell off….well okay an extreme example, but not beyond the realm of possibility. I 'm starting to nod my head at the comments above, about staying safe by 'not doing anything'...I get it now!!


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

P-K..
It's a new rule..Someone is ALWAYS to blame !

;-(


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

Poopiekat, have you read some of the NTSB accident analyses? Every one I've dug into hasn't been about "assigning blame", it's been about discovering what went wrong so that we can go about fixing systemic problems. To your example of the forklift, maybe startup procedures in the morning involve visual inspection of the mast bolts? Maybe you change the maintenance schedule? Maybe you change driving practice so that you don't put a load over someone's head.

And then you come down like a ton of bricks (sorry) on any employer who asks their employees to bypass these safety measures and puts customers and employees in danger.

Make these things less a matter of judgment so that someone isn't to blame when the failure happens, rather we look at how we can fix the procedures and practices.

Yes, the difficulty is that you need to allow room for innovation, for people to try out new practices and procedures, but if, culturally, you can instill in your employees the notion that accidents are avoidable (and really carry that attitude out in your procedures) then you won't have the "yeah, that piece isn't really well clamped, but it ought to stay fixed for this short cut", or "yeah, my fingers are in danger, but if things go wrong I can pull 'em out in time" behaviors that lead to accidents.


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## dbray45 (Oct 19, 2010)

Yes, all accidents are preventable - shut off the power, seal the room, go home-done, no more accidents.
Ever see what happens when a new table saw blade loses a piece of carbide, or a piece of wood under stress sends a piece of wood across the room past your ear and imbed into the wall, or squarely hit a spike in the wood?

Can change your perspective in a hurry-.

Good topic.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

@ Dan Lyke: You may have overlooked the comment I made in post #4 about assigning blame. When it becomes known that some minute benign action on your part becomes the focus of an accident investigation, that information is available to people who have the right to sue you. Regardless of the intent of the accident investigation. And there's the rub. In all my years of industrial experience, I've only seen it once. But heard of dozens of other cases. I've always worked under the presumption that a business would assume the liability for the results of accidents, not just with insurance claims, but would take the hit for a civil suit resulting from an industrial accident. Now,....an individual employee could be the target of an aggrieved co-worker's lawsuit! It's scary! I'll gather some statutory info today and post it later.


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## GregD (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey Gator - As you say, there is no practical way of avoiding a workpiece blowing up on the lathe, but isn't it practical to work at the lathe in such a way that even if the piece explodes there is little risk of serious injury? Some combination of guards, PPE, and technique?

If you choose to interpret "All" as mathematically zero you can quibble with the statement, but is that really a useful perspective? I am convinced that if an individual, organization, or industry makes a serious, consistent effort to reach a zero accident rate, they can achieve a dramatically lower accident rate than they would have otherwise.


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## DanLyke (Feb 8, 2007)

poopiekat, I'm currently learning about liability and waivers and such for a crafts program my wife runs. Yeah, liability and blame is a scary thing, and there are some outlying horrendous injustices, but overall I'm becoming impressed with how sane big portions of the legal process are, at least here in California.

And with the NTSB and similar accident investigations it isn't just "was the procedure followed", but "what part of the procedure wasn't a reasonable thing to follow and how can we revamp that?"


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## Gator (May 2, 2008)

As I said earlier, there is the difference between preventing the "accident".. and preventing the "injury" .. two seperate events.. but yes.. it is sometimes ( most times) more cost effective to just take steps to reduce risk or severity of the injury, then take all the steps required to go the extreme to prevent the accident.

If every industry in the world went to the extreme to prevent accidents, the financial implications would be staggering, unfortunately. Everyone says "cost" should not stand in the way of safety, but how much would that pen blank cost if it had to be harvested from a tree grown in a certain area, maintained at a specific temperature, monitored and nurtured with specific nutrients to ensure it matured properly, then was harvested by an individual certified to harvest this species in a manner that would maintain the integrity of the material, get milled in the same manner, shipped, and stored in temperature controlled container, and density / sonic tested before reaching the final destination. And all the people handling this pen blank would have to be certified of course, by an organization that has been certified, in the proper certification for this process…

Accident investigation is all about determining the "facts" involving an accident to determine preventability, not blame. Processes are put in place to prevent the accident from happening again. Unfortunately the next phone call is usually to a Tort. This is one of the things wrong with society today. We don't look for ways to prevent accidents, we look for ways to allocate blame for profit.

Gator

I must change my signature…

Legal Beagle / Astrology to the Stars / Dog grooming by appointment only.


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## racerglen (Oct 15, 2010)

And Gator..
we musten't forget a waiver isn't worth it's paper if there's demonstable negligence..
Like a ski hill that hasn't greased it's lift pulleys in 10 years or looked for wear on the cables..
or a saw maker that hasn't tested it's blades to ensure that the carbide stays put..

;-(


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