# Lichtenberg device safety wiring



## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hello this is my first post as I just signed up. I am going to be making a lichtenberg device for epoxy fractal burns and wanted some input. I am very aware of the danger of these devices and have been doing a lot of reading on how to make them safer as to not make my wife a widow. My idea is the common seen wiring through a switch with the light to let me know it is plugged in regardless if power is running through the device, the switch is for on/off to let the power pass through the switch, after that is where I want to add two momentary push buttons so that way both my hands have to be away from the probes as to not touch them (removing even one hand and the machine stops), and off course proper 15k gto wire on the out puts, heavy duty clamps, shrink wrap and proper connections anywhere electricity will be flowing. Any other input from anyone on here to make it safer or where my plan may be flawed. I also was debating on a step pedal but thinking the three points of safety is enough. Thank you in advance and can post pictures as it starts coming together.


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

I've been sitting on it more and more. I want to add a light bulb after the momentary relays to clearly show it is 100% live and as a extra reassurance that I can move the prongs with know worries. I also want to add a 15amp breaker but not sure where. I would like to add it after the relays so if it does start acting up its killed before it gets near my hands on said relay. Any thoughts


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

A word of safety advice: *DON'T!*


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

This is not something that I would do. It is too risky for me and my wife. If I was an electrician well versed in high voltage and had ALL the safety equipment, I would not do it. I certainly would not do it based on YouTube videos.

Sorry to be so negative but I do not believe you should do this.


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## Redoak49 (Dec 15, 2012)

This is not something that I would do. It is too risky for me and my wife. If I was an electrician well versed in high voltage and had ALL the safety equipment, I would not do it. I certainly would not do it based on YouTube videos.

Sorry to be so negative but I do not believe you should do this.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

Read this first.


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

Not strictly based off YouTube it's just a good place to see as I am a visual learner, mixed with lots of reading, but also have experience with electricity but definitely not the 2k it should produce. I feel comfortable as I'll have 2 indicators of power, a on off, and two relays that force my hands to be occupied or no power, a fuse that'll kill power if it acts up, rubber electrical box for everything, incased in wood, and be around 9 feet away from the probes when there is power.


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## mel52 (Sep 4, 2017)

My advice on safety wiring would be to wire it to the bumper of some car when they go out of town. I used to be a lineman and have seen some scary stuff when everything is SUPPOSIDLY done perfectly correct. Good luck !!! Mel


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Do you know the ionization voltage for air? Bulk resistance of damp concrete? Air dried lumber? Wet lumber? Sappy lumber? Wet plywood? HS tubing is only good for 600v typ? Breakdown voltage of all your insulators? Have you figured your minimum body resistance for your voltage source to produce .005A across your chest? Run a 5kv HiPot tester for leakage paths that don't show on your little DVM?

No to any of the above? You don't *know* what you're doing.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

yeah id listen to all giving their opinion here,is this something you feel losing your life is worth it.yeah it looks cool but your wife wont think so at your funeral.please reconsider but if you still feel the need at least consult with an electrician experienced with high voltage.good luck.hey if you never post again ill guess we will know how it went!


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## jacww (Aug 23, 2015)

MBS1287,

Some things are simply not worth the risk!

Pay attention to those above with more knowledge!

TonyC


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

LJ already has several threads on the topic of fractal burning. Read them!

People die doing this:
https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/fractal-burning-kills-another-michigan

Fractal Burning is banned by American Association of Woodturners Safety Committee.

The actual electrical equipment for the process is simple and can be cheap.
Cost of proper protective equipment (PPE) far exceeds the cost of electrical bits. Proper voltage rated gloves run ~$200. Then you have the non-conductive work surfaces, clothes, face protection in case of arc fault.
Can easily spend $500+ to protect your self from $50 worth of electrical parts.

When I was young and invincible, I might have tried fractal burning. But after 30 years of industrial safety exposure, watching loss of life, and knowing 2 people who have permanent disabilities who survived after incidents with high voltage; will not attempt it.

IME - You need to get more than internet reading education to have proper high voltage training before you attempt fractal burning. You need professionally high voltage safety training!

Attempting the process without the PPE is asking to die. Just like holding a stick of dynamite while fuse burns, or running across a busy street with eyes closed, and hoping you survive the *********************************** stunt. Don't do fractal burning unless wearing PPE.

PS Suggest you show your family all the Lichtenberg device and fractal burning safety articles, and ask them: 
*Do I have your permission to die like this for my hobby?*
Best Luck getting family permission.

Be safe, not Sorry.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> Not strictly based off YouTube it s just a good place to see as I am a visual learner, mixed with lots of reading, but also have experience with electricity but definitely not the 2k it should produce. I feel comfortable as I ll have 2 indicators of power, a on off, and two relays that force my hands to be occupied or no power, a fuse that ll kill power if it acts up, rubber electrical box for everything, incased in wood, and be around 9 feet away from the probes when there is power.
> 
> - MBS1287


 Set our minds at ease. Tell us about your experience with electricity.

*On any forum when this comes up woodworkers say "it looks beautiful" and woodworkers who are also retired electrical workers say "you must be crazy!" *There are hundreds of ways to beautify and embellish wood without risking death. Just pretend this way doesn't exist.



> Do you know the ionization voltage for air? Bulk resistance of damp concrete? Air dried lumber? Wet lumber? Sappy lumber? Wet plywood? HS tubing is only good for 600v typ? Breakdown voltage of all your insulators? Have you figured your minimum body resistance for your voltage source to produce .005A across your chest? Run a 5kv HiPot tester for leakage paths that don t show on your little DVM?
> 
> No to any of the above? You don t *know* what you re doing.
> 
> - Madmark2


No to any of the above???

Buy a laser engraver and use it to burn a jpg of the fractal.


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

So is the biggest risk being electrocuted by the ends where the voltage is much higher? That seems like the biggest I see and why I wanted to add so many fail safes of keeping me far away from the propes and enclosing the MOT in wood. Any chance the MOT grenades?


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

And sorry lots of info being thrown at me which is why I came here. I doing wiring in apartment complexes so like I said some knowledge but definitely not a electrical engineer but my friends dad is a VERY good electrical engineer so I know i can pick his brain also


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## 280305 (Sep 28, 2008)

I do not have the technical expertise of the people giving you advice. But, I have been on this web site for quite a long while and I can tell you that those people know what they are talking about.

Believe me, they are not just screaming, "You'll shoot your eye out!"


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## P89DC (Oct 1, 2017)

Do it before you have kids. Let Darwin have his tax…..


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

And just to clarify just because one or I guess everyone is saying what in reality I dont want to hear doesnt mean I'll be upset or disregard. I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.


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## jacww (Aug 23, 2015)

I do not believe anyone on this forum will give you any encouragement to attempt this dangerous stunt.

If anyone does, in my opinion, they should be banned from this site.

TonyC


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## WalkerR (Feb 8, 2017)

> And just to clarify just because one or I guess everyone is saying what in reality I dont want to hear doesnt mean I'll be upset or disregard. I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.


...in that case let me add my voice to the ones saying it's not worth it. Just don't do it.

I don't have any first hand knowledge but fractal burning just isn't that cool. The only time I've ever seen, heard, or read anything about it is when somebody dies trying it. Not once have I ever seen a post, article, or comment with anything positive to say about it. Print it with a laser engraver sounds like a good idea if you insist on the visual.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> So is the biggest risk being electrocuted by the ends where the voltage is much higher? That seems like the biggest I see and why I wanted to add so many fail safes of keeping me far away from the propes and enclosing the MOT in wood. Any chance the MOT grenades?
> 
> And sorry lots of info being thrown at me which is why I came here. I doing wiring in apartment complexes so like I said some knowledge but definitely not a electrical engineer but my friends dad is a VERY good electrical engineer so I know i can pick his brain also
> 
> - MBS1287


Yes, the MOT could grenade, also the wood, also the wood table it is all sitting on top of.

Basic electric knowledge is helpful, sort of. 
Think about path lightning takes during storm, it's not random, there is science to it. That is science you need to learn. What happens if sonic boom or an earthquake outside shakes the building, or you are Klutz and kick something; and the probes hit the floor while power is on?

As MadMark was trying to point out with his list of questions;
High Voltage involved exceeds what normal off the shelf components can tolerate, and you have worry about a whole new set of rules that are ignored in standard home power grid. 
Things like:
- air quality (humidity and particle counts)
- separation distances between exposed electrodes
- insulation types and breakdown voltage ratings
- conduction paths
- fixtures and work holders
etc.

You need more than safe circuit with dead man switch, breakers, and lights. Need proper floor covering, table fixtures, gloves, clothing, face/eye protection. If you can avoid it, you don't want be in same room, or walking on same surface as the apparatus is using. You need to make sure your damp sack of conductive skin can never be in the HV conduction path, or you put yourself at an unacceptable risk. 
There is no such thing as being too safe around high voltages.

The question is not can you do fractal burning, as any monkey with some wire and microwave oven parts can make one to burn wood. The internet proves that all the time.

The question is can you do it safe enough, that don't become another statistic for the insurance industry?

IMHO - very few folks are willing to invest the nearly $1000 required to 'play' with high voltage safely.

If you are one of the few with money, time and education, then read up, get the equipment, be safe, and best luck.

PS - If you need beneficiary for your will, I am available.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

The gentleman who just died was an experienced woodworker who purchased a commercial unit and all of the safety gear that was required.

At the very least you've got the advise of those who know what they're talking about even if you chose to ignore it.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.
> 
> - MBS1287


You are trusting brain power on an Internet Woodworking forum about high voltage?

Step back and really think about that for a moment.


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## Scap (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm experienced with 480/3ph equipment.
I've seen what 277 (one leg of 480) does to a human body.
There's no way in hell I'd consider playing with one of these lightning machines.

All I see is death when I see these fractal projects posted.


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.
> 
> - MBS1287
> 
> ...


As I said earlier, hes' not trusting a woodworking forum about high voltage. He should be trusting info from professional electricians who also happen to be woodworkers.



> I m experienced with 480/3ph equipment.
> I ve seen what 277 (one leg of 480) does to a human body.
> There s no way in hell I d consider playing with one of these lightning machines.
> 
> ...


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

Just wire it up to ring the morg to let them know you are on the way.


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> He should be trusting info from professional electricians who also happen to be woodworkers.
> 
> - Andybb


No he shouldn't. It's an Internet forum. OP should not take any advice as it pertains to high voltage from anyone on here.

Do I think there is electricians on hear that know what they are doing? Absolutely. Would I trust my LIFE with there advice?

Lumberjocks should consider taking this post down and all related to this nonsense.

Not to protect the OP, but to protect someone who stumbles upon it and wants to give it a try without REALLY knowing what they are doing.

Maybe block everyone from replying, have a generic response about how stupid it is, leave it for a day, then delete.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

This is one of those if you have to ask (or even do the research) you should walk away moments. This sort of experiment should only be done under laboratory conditions and safety protocols after being designed by a qualified electrical engineer. If someone could make an affordable one of these with a UL or CE certification you would be able to buy a commercially made one by now. Could it be done? Probably, but it would probably be so expensive and large to make it safe that no one could afford it.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

How stupid are you? Electrical work in apartments? Oh wow, 120 and a little 240. Nothing like high voltage. As a retired electrician with over 40 years, and also having worked on voltage systems up to 15,000 volts in plants, and up to 138,000 volts in substations and switchyards, we are all screaming, DON'T DO THIS!!! A man died from a commercial unit, and you think you can build a safe unit? No real electrical experience, and not an electrical engineer? DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS. How much insurance do you have on your life, and for the lawsuits that are sure to follow if someone else dies? Can you get a UL listing for this? Do you even know what UL is? It is unbelievable that after those of us with many years of electrical training and experience won't touch this, and constantly warn against it, there is always another untrained individual wanting to try this. PLEASE DON'T TRY IT!!! For your wife and children, DON'T TRY IT!!!!


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## Andybb (Sep 30, 2016)

> Hello this is my first post as I just signed up.
> - MBS1287


We should have said "welcome to lumberjocks" Please don't take these responses as typical. You just happened to start out with a post that has been discussed and discouraged ad nauseum.

This is the best ww site on the web with great and helpful folks. Again, welcome to the site.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

Just so you know what you'll look like when your wife finds you. Google "high voltage electrocution" and click on images.

You'd have to be nuttier than a squirrel turd….


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

Okay so reading all the responses I just want to point out a few things. Yes maybe it was wrong to ask the internet for advice on it but I guess maybe I was in the mindset yes it's dangerous but figured it was something done on here and could be advised how to do it safely, yes I see now wrong mindset. Secondly as said about taking the post down by a moderator if it's something I can do i will, remember new here so haven't figured out the site much, or leave it up for anyone else that looks up the topic has insight.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

I don't think that there is any reason to take this post down. It's not one of those posts that has bad "hey try this" or "watch this" info. IMO, it has plenty of sound advise about why not to try this so could actually help save someone's life. If someone wants to do this, as you said, there are plenty of other sites and YouTube videos that show how to do it. This could actually be one of the threads that gives someone (else) that "oh wait" moment.

EDIT: In fact, I encourage everyone to google "Lichtenberg device safety wiring" and then click on the link to this post to help improve the ranking of this thread in searches.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

A lot of people do this safely. There are lumberjocks here that do it safely and nobody discourages them about it. If you want to do it, go for it. Just learn how to do it safely, as clearly, that's what you are here trying to do.

Good Luck, hope it works out for you.

Edit: I've always been "nuttier than a squirrel turd"


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## MBS1287 (Jan 22, 2020)

Maybe I fell into the trap of it looks cool, seems like lots of people do it, it can be done safely then


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> Maybe I fell into the trap of it looks cool, seems like lots of people do it, it can be done safely then
> 
> - MBS1287


Yeah looks cool as most novelties do. Reminds me of how cool those brass fiber optic lights that were all the rage for a year or two.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

Like your mother said "if everyone else were jumping off a bridge you would too?"

High voltage doesn't give second chances, your first mistake is literally your last.

High voltage will reach out and find you. It'll pass thru things in ways you don't expect. A fuse, even a fast acting one, will only save the equipment, not *you*.

Years ago I got hit by 35kv from an old vacuum tube tv set. I was a tech, trained in safety, but there was an unseen crack in the fly back insulator. When I reached past at what I thought was a safe distance the high voltage reached out and found me. With a snap and a crack I was thrown back across the room - luckily breaking the arc. Took me a while to recover.

I've seen commercial equipment schematics with a skull and crossbones on circuit points with "FATAL VOLTAGE - DO NOT MEASURE!" notations.

None of the homebrew hardware for this has appropriate warnings and safety interlocks.

What is to prevent the cat from jumping up with the juice on? I designed industrial equipment before retiring and this is why you have safety light curtains.

The equipment, in proper condition and operation, is a death trap.

caveat emptor


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## CWWoodworking (Nov 28, 2017)

> Maybe I fell into the trap of it looks cool, seems like lots of people do it
> 
> - MBS1287


Think in terms of percentages. Way more people get injured using a table saw. But look at how many hours table saws run every day.

In terms of percentages, this is a EXTREMELY dangerous hobby.

I have been on LJ for 785 days and read about 3 DEATHS.

As for as taking post down, this is my fear-

I had no clue what it was until I read about it hear. I immediately went to YouTube to see what it was. I'm smart enough to stay far away. But what if a 22 yr "invincible" kid decides it looks cool and doesn't dive into the safety side?

This practice isn't Woodworking, it's electrical Russian roulette.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You won't know you made a mistake. Your family will.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> Edit: I ve always been "nuttier than a squirrel turd"
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


Well….there's been talk


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

Ever watch the movie, THE GREEN MILE,?


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## Brawler (Nov 12, 2018)

Having a little knowledge in electricity is enough to be dangerous.


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## RobHannon (Dec 12, 2016)

There really isn't any way to make that safe if you are still physically present while the circuit is on. That amount of voltage will very likely do damage faster than any safety mechanism can disable the current.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I don't get how all these were done without everybody dying?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fractal+burning+images&form=HDRSC2&first=1&cw=1117&ch=526

Somehow they must have learned how to do it.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

Too much risk for something that's ugly. If that's the look you want, just do it with a wood burning tool. Takes longer, but significantly lower chances of dying.


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

> I don t get how all these were done without everybody dying?
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fractal+burning+images&form=HDRSC2&first=1&cw=1117&ch=526
> 
> Somehow they must have learned how to do it.
> ...


id say if you want to learn start with a fractal burned urn that way if you screw up your covered ;>(


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## clagwell (Dec 20, 2018)

> I don t get how all these were done without everybody dying?
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fractal+burning+images&form=HDRSC2&first=1&cw=1117&ch=526
> 
> Somehow they must have learned how to do it.
> ...


Maybe that's just as far as they got in the process before the final event. Could be what you're looking at are memorials posted by their survivors.


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## Ripper70 (Nov 30, 2015)

> but my friends dad is a VERY good electrical engineer so I know i can pick his brain also
> 
> - MBS1287


And what is his advice? I'd be interested to know.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

This is 11-foot pole work, as far as I am concerned. I do enough dangerous stuff already, and used to work with high power microwave systems way back when.


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## SMP (Aug 29, 2018)

> I don t get how all these were done without everybody dying?
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fractal+burning+images&form=HDRSC2&first=1&cw=1117&ch=526
> 
> Somehow they must have learned how to do it.
> ...


My 10 friends that learned how to ride motorcycles all learned just fine. 2 of them are even still around and riding.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

You evidently are not listening to our advice. You are a very stubborn person. You can not learn enough by picking bits of knowledge from someone. And with your limited electrical knowledge, how do you know he is a good engineer? Not saying he isn't, but…You can not move faster than electricity. If you are lucky you will only need hospital insurance. If unlucky, I hope you have slot of life insurance. How do some people do this?? They are lucky for awhile, like the last victim. Till the time you are not lucky. And mabye a prepaid funeral and burial plan as well.


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

I use to do filming for a local utility. Saw some 'mild cases' of electrocution. Just limbs blown off, body parts of all kinds really, that kind of thing. Met these people and all said they were 'lucky'! Like Tony-S said, look it up. I don't care to. I saw them in the safety manager's offices. Those folks weren't available for comment….


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

C'mon. 
*Please treat all members with respect.*
Simply post your thoughts, warnings, advice, etc; and let the OP decide the risk he wants to accept.

Ridiculing any member is not kind, and is against forum rules.

Kind folks have shared constructive information and references to show there is large risk involved. 
And that many people have strong feelings about dangers of 'playing' with high voltage devices for fractal burning. Probably as they have lost friends and co-workers to electrical accidents.

My final words:
One mistake is usually all you get with HV.
Seldom get a chance to learn from YOUR mistakes, as they are instantly fatal.
Failure to heed HV warnings provided above WILL eventually earn you a darwin award 
when the inevitable 'oh shxx' happens, and 
NO ONE here wants you to get one.

Be Safe, not Sorry!


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## pottz (Sep 15, 2015)

he's new here and it's a shame he might not be here very long!


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

+1


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## MSquared (Aug 20, 2018)

Edit: I saw pictures of the aftermath ….


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