# Why so long?!



## Edwardnorton (Feb 15, 2013)

*I have been in the contracting/renovations / designs for over 40 years but since retiring I've been diddling around in my wood shop. During all of my working career I never had to use a lathe but now I have 2 of them in my shop.

I thought I'd ask around here how come lathe tools are so damned long? I mean, I've seen some on the internet that appeared to be 36" if not more..

Ok you turning jocks out here, someone educate me! *


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## HokieKen (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm a relatively newcomer to turning, but I'm pretty sure it's for leverage. The moment caused by the force of the wood on the cutting edge causes the tool to want to "flip" around the point that's contacting the tool rest. The amount of force you have to exert on the handle to prevent it from "flipping" decreases in proportion to the distance from the tool rest to where you're holding the handle. So I would assume that the really long tools are things like roughing gouges. I don't know, but I'd guess that you'd be happy to have that length if you were turning a 3/4" section in the middle of a 3" Mahogany table leg.

Just my guess…


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## tomsteve (Jan 23, 2015)

36" long stem goblets. 
ya know, ive seen some pretty big ones myself and the only thing i could think of is for something like 4 post beds. 
now thati think about it, my sons getting out of the army next month and mentioned he wants me to build a custom bed frame for him. i think i need a new lathe.


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## Bruyet (Apr 10, 2015)

I don't know if this is the purpose or not (I'm less than a year into the vortex), but in my experience of using short and long tools, I think it is about control of the cutting surface. The further your controlling actions are away from the fulcrum (tool rest), the smaller and more subtle they are where the tool meets the wood. If your tool length is 36", and 1" is past the tool rest, this ratio is 35:1. For every two inches of movement at the heel of the tool the cutting end moves about 1/16". I hope that makes sense.


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## Clarkie (May 11, 2013)

36" between centers is a common distance and is used for spindle turning mostly. The short bed lathes are for faceplate and bowls. The biggest lathe for wood turning I have seen is in Mystic shipyard, it is over 90 feet long, used for making the masts for the old ships of the whaling period. Have seen pictures of even longer ones the Navy used, over a couple hundred feet long.


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## Picklehead (Feb 12, 2013)

Must be a guy thing.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Not sure if talking about a lathes distance between centers or turning tools with long handles.

Actual distance between centers on a 36" lathe is shortened by how you mount wood on the lathe. You have to take into account how much a spur drive center or chuck extend from the headstock spindle and live center in the tailstock. Obliviously if want to turn a 36" stool or table leg or 5' coat rack have to do some calculating & thinking.

Long tool handles over 18" or long tools are great for large heavy hollowing tools but useless for most spindle and bowl turning. Tool handles vary a lot from short to long based upon use and preference.


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## WoodNSawdust (Mar 7, 2015)

I asked a turner this once and was told that longer tools add weight and stability therefore eliminating chatter in turning.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

The following is JMHO.
I agree the main purpose is leverage. A general rule of thumb is 5" behind the tool rest for each inch over the tool rest. That is why it gets almost impossible to hollow out an item over 5-6" deep without a special rig.

Bowl gouges are typically longer and heavier, a bowl 4" deep would require about 20" behind the tool rest for leverage. Much of the time a bowl gouge is held at the end of the handle. Most bowl turners try to angle the rest along the outside profile or into the bowl to get it closer to the wood. Some use special curved rest to achieve the same thing.

Most spindles are typically less than 4" diameter and you are cutting a max 2" over the rest. Even 4" is large for spindles, 2" would be more the norm where you would only be about 1" over the rest. The length of the spindle doesn't matter because you are sliding the rest along it. It may be a pepper mill or a pencil bed post you are still not very far over the tool rest.
As Bruyet stated it is also about control. The finer the detail the more control so spindle tools are normally held at the bulb (behind the ferrule). Some spindle cuts also require lifting and rotating the handle and a long handle would get in the way with your body. Consider a pencil, you hold it almost at the tip for writing; hold it half way up and try to write; you lose all of the fine control.

If you are about to start I can link you to some Stuart Batty videos; very clear, concise, and covering some topics (such as overhang, stance, etc.) not covered by others as individual topics.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Stuart Batty firm believer in long tool handles but not sure he talks about leverage as much as tool control and body movement & support. Yes he sold some of the longest tool handles ever saw before his business went bankrupt. I have never turned a bowl where needed a 24", 30", 36" or 42" handle. Longest homemade wood tool handles I use is 20 inches and that is an overkill on my big roughing gouge and 5/8" bowl gouge. My tool handles on thicker side than commercial handles available.

Not sure have an easy answer on lenght of turning tools including handles. Turners come in all shape sizes and preferences!


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

To provide leverage. There is a great variety in handle length and it is a matter of personal preference. Many like to turn there own handles, myself included. That way you can make 'em how you like 'em.


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

I always saw it as control… that you can be very steady, and roll the tool handle at your hip with the tool rest as a fulcrum to make precise controlled cuts.

The long handle tools 'catch' less often… leaving fewer occasional gouges as you make a pass.


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## LeeMills (Nov 2, 2014)

> Stuart Batty firm believer in long tool handles but not sure he talks about leverage as much as tool control and body movement & support. Yes he sold some of the longest tool handles ever saw before his business went bankrupt. I have never turned a bowl where needed a 24", 30", 36" or 42" handle.
> - Wildwood


I have never needed at 24" or longer handle myself but can see where some turning may. Hollow forms quickly become work for me and I just turn for fun.
Stuart, in addition to the 24" - 42" handles also offered 6", 9", 12" and other handles. Just depends on the job.
Here is a his video on overhand and tool diameter for bowls, he suggest generally 5X" for bowl gouges. If you looked at his videos on scrapers he suggest 3X" to 7X" depending on the type of scraper. Different parameters for parting tools, spindle tools, etc.

I don't think this forum allows embedding from Vimeo but here is the link.


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## MNgary (Oct 13, 2011)

For some reason we all feel our tools must exceed any needs we will ever, in our furthest imagination, hope to have. I mean, I mean, the tool has to exceed what I am going to do just because, just because. And that just because is cuz I gotta!


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

Really wish OP would tell us whether asking about wood lathes verus turning tools. Think in true message board fashion beat tool handle length to death! Oh wait we forgot about actual useable length of the tool!

To me Stuart Batty just one of many great instructors around and have linked his old web site and videos before.

If want to talk about large turnings have a look at Ed Moultthrop's his son and grandsons turnings. They use a homemade lathe and tools! Ed died several years ago and he and few others forge the way for really large turnings using homemade lathes & tools.

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=635&q=ed+moulthrop+woodturnings&oq=ed+moulthrop+woodturnings&gs_l=img.3...1084.18945.0.19753.25.7.0.18.18.0.144.851.0j7.7.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..4.21.952.gJgt3doj8Jc


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## Oldtool (May 27, 2012)

Most definitely leverage, as demonstrated in this Youtube clip:


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

David Ellsworth makes his own hollowing tools … his straight and bent tools are 38" long, with 28" handles (that are a little under 2" in diameter) and 9/16" steel shafts that are 10" outside the handle.








He gets both the leverage and control he needs for his hollow forms.

For smaller hollow forms, Ellsworth makes tools out of Allen wrenches, screw-drivers, HSS rod, etc. Some of those tools are very small but are proportionate to the size of the vessel he is working on. The key again is leverage and control.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

> I always saw it as control… that you can be very steady, and roll the tool handle at your hip with the tool rest as a fulcrum to make precise controlled cuts.
> 
> The long handle tools catch less often… leaving fewer occasional gouges as you make a pass.
> 
> - DrDirt


.
.
I pretty much agree with Dr Dirt here. I started with a set of tools that are 16" and as I get more and more experience with the lathe I've started making my own carbide tools. I'm sort of settling into tools that are between 22" and 24" overall. That's my "comfort zone" as of now.


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

> Really wish OP would tell us whether asking about wood lathes verus turning tools.
> - Wildwood


.
If you re-read his post again you'll see he says *"I thought I'd ask around here how come lathe tools are so damned long?" 
*
It's the tools.


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Hi Ed. I just make them to be comfortable for control. The long cutting edge is for a good ong life but the handle length is for comfortable control. I don't use any thing 36" long, but I don't turn great big diameters either.


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## Wildwood (Jul 22, 2012)

JoeinGA, if look at my first post think tried to cover my bases answering Ed's question! Yes would still like to hear from Ed. Ed mentions owning two lathes what size are they? The average length of bowl & spindle turning tools minus the handle not very long!

Have watched David Ellsworth turn with a 9/16" bowl gouge stuck in a tree limb 3 or 4 feet long at a symposium which looked silly but had our attention.

In my limited experience only know a few turners that use bigger than 1 ¼" to 2" boring bars to turn. The Moulthrop family already linked and James Johnson use OMG size. If follow 2nd link "making a large vase," will see what big tools all about.

http://jamesjohnsonwoodturner.com/index.htm

http://jamesjohnsonwoodturner.com/Step_1.htm

But wait there are many more folk using large tools!

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=635&q=ed+moulthrop+woodturnings&oq=ed+moulthrop+woodturnings&gs_l=img.3...1084.18945.0.19753.25.7.0.18.18.0.144.851.0j7.7.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..4.21.952.gJgt3doj8Jc#tbm=isch&q=large+woodturnings

Now you see why asking Ed to be more specific? Would really be nice to know size of his lathes and what he wants to turn!


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## JoeinGa (Nov 26, 2012)

Got'cha Bill. Now I see where you were coming from .


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