# Adventures in Miter folding - CNC style



## DS

I've been wanting to do this for a long time. It took some doing and a LOT of Algebra.

This is a software construct, or "smart part" in Cabinetvision, where it adopts the overall size of my Assembly for Height, Width and Depth, allows a user entry for the skin thickness to leave behind and uses the precise material thickness to make the final fitment adjustments.

Then, it cuts out of a single piece of material with the press of the start button.










The joint was fairly invisible in MDF, so I traced it with pencil so you could see it.

Rockler has a tablesaw dado set that will make a similar joint, but, the setup uses shims and blade height adjustments to get the fitment right. (Not to mention it costs $389, AND it won't work with our SawStop TS)

With my CNC programming construct, the setup is over. Just select the material and the overall sizes and output the g-code baby! No fuss, no muss.

After this worked I felt like a proud new Papa who just got a new baby boy! 
(Funny, I know.)

I love it when a plan comes together.

-more pics added-

*More adventures in miterfolding;*

These are 108" long, sequence-matched, quarter-sawn Walnut panels.
They will enclose two fridge and freezer integrated columns that will also have matching sequenced Walnut front panels.










Joint side of the panel










Dry fit with packing tape on veneer face










Easy Peasy!

I'm currently adapting this software construct for floating shelves.

Can you tell I'm having fun?


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## DS

In case you are wondering of what use a joint like this might be;










(This is a random image from the interwebs - not my project)

I've done a kitchen very similar to this, (also in Macassar Ebony), that was featured on the cover of Phoenix Home and Garden a couple of years back. (It's behind a paywall, so if you subscribe you can read all about it)

I sure wish I had this construct way back then.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Fantastic project! Yes I can only "imagine" the mental workout


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## JoeLyddon

DS,

Cool way to go!

What kind of Router bits were used to cut it?

I have been studying CNC for a few months now… Started by discovering Dave Gatton & his designed systems.


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## DS

This miterfold joint utilized four seperate bits;

1/2" Down Shear for the main dado bit
1/4" Down Shear for the secondary dado bit (the construct will auto select between 1/4" or 1/2" depending on the needed dado widths)
1/2" 45 degree bit for the miter
1/2" compression cutter for the part outline cut

This could be done with a minimum of tooling, (1/4" DS and the 1/2" 45 degree miter bit), but we have a fully stocked 10-tool carousel, so the best tool for the job, I say. Plus the added benefit of cutting at 800 ipm with the 1/2" tools is way faster than the 300 to 400 ipm on the 1/4" tool.

This construct is about to get a good workout as we have two fairly large kitchen projects coming up right away. One is horizontal grain-matched Quarter Sawn White Oak and the other is Quarter Sawn Walnut.

Miter-folding grain-matched panels has always been a pain in the you-know-what. That is part of why they are so much more expensive. It will be interesting to see how much our productivity is increased with this new system.


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## JoeLyddon

Very good!

Sounds like you have a SUPER CNC Router system at work!!

Your at home… will it also have a tool carousel? 

Thank you!


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## DS

I am at the point where I will have to finalize that decision soon. I've nearly decided to run a basic spindle and get producing then change to the ATC with a carousel later.

The cost difference is about $600 vs $3500.

Every time I have that kind of money socked away there always seems to be another place to spend it.

As for the machine I have at work, you can see it here;
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/235553

and yes, it is a beast of a super machine. (Not the newest, but it sure is a work horse.)


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## DS

I figured out that the pic updates might work better at the top of the post, so I moved them.


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## DS

Finished panels being installed.









Matching Doors and appliance panels will go on soon..


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## Desert_Woodworker

Sweet!


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## DS

I've been buried in the horizontal-grain-matched-quarter-sawn-white-oak job all week. I had to manually nest the veneers in the kitchen a sheet at a time as there was a lot of tricky joinery and fancy panel pairings.
In the end it will look deceptively simple, but should look spectacular.

The cnc machine has been cutting Oak panels all day and the first results look very promising

The veneers in the kitchen took over five hours to nest today. What a headache.
It would've taken about 15 minutes to nest a similar vertical non-grain-matched job.

Sorry no pictures at the moment. Thought I'd drop this in on the way to the sack.

Now that we have this construct, though, it seems the jobs are lining up to use it.

Upcoming, is another contempo job with chemetal laminates. The options for banding end panels are limited, so the miterfold may be in play again. This job with have Ultra-gloss white lowers with satin-bronzed aluminum uppers.

It will also Include the first of what will become a new luxury closet line for us that is based on the "Open closet" concept rather than the more traditional reach-in closet format.

That is a whole new series of constructs whose framework is just starting to take shape.

.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Fantastic update on how far woodworking/cabinet making has come…
Please include pics on your next post for this cabinet making 2019


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## Underdog

That is very cool. 
I might have to try this myself.


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## Underdog

Sorry for the double post. The forum software/server is really acting up.


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## DS

Island Post - ready to fold









Island Post Folded (Yes, it is also horizontal grain)









Fillers and Finished Ends - ready to fold









Fillers - folded


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## DS

A glimpse into the open closet concept. (Image is from a hotel in Dubai - inspiration photo only - not my project)










The system is completely modular and the cabinets are on hidden shelf standards that can be moved around to suit the mood of the day.


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## Desert_Woodworker

What is the v-bit angle- 90 or 91 degrees and how much clearance do you leave so that it doesn't cut through on the folds?



> A glimpse into the open closet concept. (Image is from a hotel in Dubai - inspiration photo only - not my project)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The system is completely modular and the cabinets are on hidden shelf standards that can be moved around to suit the mood of the day.
> 
> - DS


Again you are on top of your game…


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## DS

The bit is a 90 degree 1/2" diameter v groove bit in solid carbide.

The "clearance", or skin thickness, is programmable depending on the materials you are using. Currently, we are setting the skin thickness at 1/32", which seems to be a good thickness for veneers.

The mdf samples we made needed a zero skins for a proper joint.

Soon, we'll be using thicker laminates and some testing will be in order to find the ideal setting.

The beautiful thing about this joint is the consistency along the entire length.


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## DS

Innolac Super High Gloss Melamine -miterfolded.

On the left, the dado tool was mis-calibrated and the joint did not close properly.
To the right of that is after adjustments.

These were just test pieces since the material was very expensive.










The actual shelves were cut shortly afterwards.

To the far right is a test for a white oak shelf with closed ends and a light channel top and bottom. This one utilized the 6th face option in cabinet vision to mill both sides of the material.

The actual shelf was over 9 ft long.


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## Desert_Woodworker

Nice work…


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## DS

Follow up on the fridge cabinet…










and yes, that is a built in expresso machine in the breakfast pantry behind pocketing doors.


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## DS

Just call me a miterfolding fool…


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## DS

More Ultra High Gloss Melamine parts.



















I really underestimated how popular this would be.


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## DS

Aaaaaand…. Chemetal Laminate Brushed Aluminum shelves.



















This one will fold into a right handed corner shelf. (Two of the small pieces shown get discarded before the fold)

A light file on the corners to remove the sharp edges and voila'!


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## oldnovice

Are those are foolproof miter joints …. ?


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## becikeja

Think it, and it can be done. I'm impressed. Well done.


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## Lazyman

DS, I was wondering why you are using downcut and compression bits instead of upcut bits. When cutting so much I would have assumed the clearing the the chips was pretty important but perhaps that after the first pass, there is enough room that it is not a problem?


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## DS

> DS, I was wondering why you are using downcut and compression bits instead of upcut bits. When cutting so much I would have assumed the clearing the the chips was pretty important but perhaps that after the first pass, there is enough room that it is not a problem?
> 
> - Lazyman


Mostly, our mainstay material that we cut is two sided thermofused melamine panels. We run dozens of panels each day.

The compression cutter ensures that there is no tear out on either face of the material.
The downshear is primarily used for dadoes and ensures a clean cut on the top face.

For us, dust removal is less of a concern than quality of cut.

There is an 8" dust port on the router head which removes most debris. The compression cutter has its own collet nut fan to give an added boost at the table. Clean up between sheets is minimal.

The v-groove bit ends up only removing about the last 1/4" or so of material since the dadoes have already cleared the channel.

I have this joint working in three main cuts - two dadoes and the v-groove. The part outline runs with the compression cutter - which is typical of most all our parts.


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## DS

> Are those are foolproof miter joints …. ?
> 
> - oldnovice


Well, no… not foolproof.
Okay, the good, the bad and the ugly;

This joint depends on a properly calibrated machine.
We have a young man who operates our machine for us, and at times, he has elected to "fudge" the diameter compensation and tool height values of certain router bits to adjust dado widths and depths to accomodate varying material thicknesses, rather than informing me of the issue so I can get the adjustments into the g-code.

While this gets him past the job of the day, it screws up the miterfold joint tolerances. 
This has been a recurring headache, as I've had to walk through the machine calibration nearly every time we run a miterfold panel to date.

I think we are on the same page now as the last batch ran very nicely. I expect this to be less of an issue going forward, as long as we aren't playing footloose and fancy free with machine calibration settings on the back end.

On the good side, we are running relatively large volumes of miterfolded parts with amazing results in various materials.


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## DS

Collet nut fan on a 1/2" compression cutter…










(stock image from the interwebs)

Our setup is very similar except in an ISO30 toolholder (vs HSK shown)


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## DS

The latest batch;


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## DS

^^^^ HPL 'Looks Likatre' ^^^^ Chemetal Brushed Aluminum ^^^^


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## gwilki

DS: Will you be making the G-code available?


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## DS

It's not quite as simple as that.

The magic to this setup is that it is a dynamic construct that can be quickly adapted to different configurations and automatically scaled for size and part thickness.
It goes beyond just g-code.

And yes, if you have Cabinetvision v9.0, or newer, it will run just fine for you.
PM me if you are truly interested.



> DS: Will you be making the G-code available?
> 
> - gwilki


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## DS

The latest miterfold project is PET polyester high gloss white laminate.
The blue is a protective film that gets removed after installation.










It makes for a really nice, seam-free corner.


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## DS

The work continues…
We recently did a walk-in wine room with Walnut enclosures and glass doors.
Nearly the entire room was miterfolded grain-matched veneers.
For me, this is where doing this technique really shines!


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## Lazyman

Do you ever get a split in the surface veneer when you fold it?


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## Desert_Woodworker

DS- fantastic! I have never done a CNC key lock miter fold but I have done some 45's to a 90. Did you program the cut? Regardless of who did it a nice job. 
I am wondering do you use a 90 or a 91 VCarve bit?


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## DS

With veneers, we tape the finished face during the fold and use a burnishing tool to assist the fold, however, quite often it will split, since the veneer is fragile. On end grain folds, it almost always splits, and on a finished end shelf, the end cap is only joined along one edge and seamed along two edges.

The main advantage of this joint in veneer isn't so much the fold, but rather, the grain matching precision it creates and the strength of the joint.

When the face is a brittle material like HPL, we intentionally cut completely through the laminate to get the best corner finish. A light touch with a file takes off the razor sharp corner after.

By far, the best corners are on PET laminates and solid metal laminates that can bend and create seamless corners.



> Do you ever get a split in the surface veneer when you fold it?
> 
> - Lazyman


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## DS

DW, I am using the construct that I created for this joint and, as part of my job, I create all the shop drawings and CNC programs for each part. This process is assisted greatly by having excellent software specially designed for making cabinetry. Once the construct is created, I usually just have to scale it to the correct size and it adjusts accordingly.

The hardest part is ensuring that all of the pieces will come together to make the room correctly as it was designed.
The dadoes and line bore holes in each cabinet largely take care of themselves.

We are using a 90 degree solid carbide bit. I wasn't sure what to expect with a 91 degree bit. We have to be careful to not use too much glue or the joint will open up. Maybe a 91 would allow room for more glue?



> DS- fantastic! I have never done a CNC key lock miter fold but I have done some 45 s to a 90. Did you program the cut? Regardless of who did it a nice job.
> I am wondering do you use a 90 or a 91 VCarve bit?
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


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## Desert_Woodworker

If you ever have a "take an active older guy to a workday"- then PM me.


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## DS

We might be looking for a CNC operator / general cabinetmaker type guy.
Deer Valley Airpark area in Phoenix


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## JoeLyddon

DS, you have done and are doing one FANTASTIC - AWESOME job!

On your veneer splitting corners… perhaps moistening the veneer corners ever so slightly before making the bend would improve your success rate?

That corner cut, I think, is probably the most critical cut of the project; too deep and you have two pieces… not deep enough and you get a Split every time regardless of moisturizing or not! Machine / tool alignment, perfect G-code, and CNC speeds, etc. are super critical leaving NO ROOM for "by the seat of your pants" whims! You have made this job into Poetry in Motion and you should be very proud of yourself!

Thank you for sharing all of this…

I'm still, in spare time, in the process of making a Gatton CNC machine and learning Fusion 360… along with playing with a 3D Printer which I really like!


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## Desert_Woodworker

> If you ever have a "take an active older guy to a workday"- then PM me.
> 
> - Desert_Woodworker


Where do I apply for this CNC job? Will I be using * Laguna equipment?
*


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## DS

Haha, r.e. Laguna.

The BEAST is made by Biesse.

...is like having five Lagunas.

Even the Laguna DC was decommissioned. The Murray Rogers DC is also a beast.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Haha, r.e. Laguna.
> 
> The BEAST is made by Biesse.
> 
> ...is like having five Lagunas.
> 
> Even the Laguna DC was decommissioned. The Murray Rogers DC is also a beast.
> 
> - DS


Love it! This is why you are Mr. CNC here at Lumber Jocks. What about the job application? 
just kidding for 4×8 sheet good would be difficult to handle unless you may have loader assist…


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## DS

Joe, thank you.

I had to look up Gatton CNC. It looks interesting.
Are you posting your progress on this CNC build?

The split veneers aren't much of a problem. The corners are dressing up nicely. When there is too much glue in the joint the corners tend to open up a bit and that is more of an issue, but an easily controlled issue.



> DS, you have done and are doing one FANTASTIC - AWESOME job!
> 
> On your veneer splitting corners… perhaps moistening the veneer corners ever so slightly before making the bend would improve your success rate?
> 
> That corner cut, I think, is probably the most critical cut of the project; too deep and you have two pieces… not deep enough and you get a Split every time regardless of moisturizing or not! Machine / tool alignment, perfect G-code, and CNC speeds, etc. are super critical leaving NO ROOM for "by the seat of your pants" whims! You have made this job into Poetry in Motion and you should be very proud of yourself!
> 
> Thank you for sharing all of this…
> 
> I m still, in spare time, in the process of making a Gatton CNC machine and learning Fusion 360… along with playing with a 3D Printer which I really like!
> 
> - Joe Lyddon


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## JoeLyddon

No, I have not posted anything on this CNC build…

I want to layout the Power Supplies, Stepper drivers, and the Steppers (NEMA 24 439 oz.) on a piece of plywood then, play with an Arduino program to make the steppers do the 2 step…  
I want to see them work!
I might post that experience once it's done…

I have to get rid of other stuff in the shop, to make room for the CNC, before I start making the Table, etc.

I have not fully decided on how big I want to make it… I am NOT leaning toward a HUGE one when I think most of my work will be on the smaller side… Maybe a cutting area of 3' x 3' would cover my needs nicely… Just for Hobby projects, signs maybe, and cutting pieces for projects… I could cut pieces longer than 3' by just cutting in 2.5' steps moving the piece down for another 2.5', etc.

You're getting me interested in making folding Miters the old fashioned way with just 90* VEE bit instead of that fancy way you're doing… The KISS principle… Cut'em, spread the glue, and fold'em up… for starters… 

It is exciting…!!

Fusion 360 is a BEAR for me to learn… (I am a seasoned programmer… Yet I just cannot seem to THINK the way they want me to think! It's their way or the Highway.) I watch tutorials (multiple times) & then decide to TRY it… Mine NEVER DOES what THEIRS DO! Very Frustrating… I have designed some really super simple things using Fusion 360 for the 3D Printer which have come out good… That program takes a lot of practice & learning to get ANYWHERE!... BUT, I will do it! Paul McWhorter has some tutorials on it which have helped… Then, when you have begun to be comfortable with it, THEY Change (Upgrade) the program, which makes all of the Tutorials OBSOLETE, forcing one to learn all over again! The program, IMHO, is NOT very friendly… it assumes that you know how to do things THEIR way and refuse to give you ANY online help… It's very happy to see you BURY yourself into oblivion!

Sorry to have gotten carried away… but… 



> Joe, thank you.
> 
> I had to look up Gatton CNC. It looks interesting.
> Are you posting your progress on this CNC build?
> 
> The split veneers aren't much of a problem. The corners are dressing up nicely. When there is too much glue in the joint the corners tend to open up a bit and that is more of an issue, but an easily controlled issue.
> 
> DS, you have done and are doing one FANTASTIC - AWESOME job!
> 
> On your veneer splitting corners… perhaps moistening the veneer corners ever so slightly before making the bend would improve your success rate?
> 
> That corner cut, I think, is probably the most critical cut of the project; too deep and you have two pieces… not deep enough and you get a Split every time regardless of moisturizing or not! Machine / tool alignment, perfect G-code, and CNC speeds, etc. are super critical leaving NO ROOM for "by the seat of your pants" whims! You have made this job into Poetry in Motion and you should be very proud of yourself!
> 
> Thank you for sharing all of this…
> 
> I m still, in spare time, in the process of making a Gatton CNC machine and learning Fusion 360… along with playing with a 3D Printer which I really like!
> 
> - Joe Lyddon
> 
> - DS


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## DS

Thought I would follow up with photos of completed miterfold projects…

Bedroom desk from a single sheet of laminate, plus shelves, tv and storage









Contemporary Bathroom with touch to open drawers.









Open concept closet









Another closet









Pantry with chemetal miterfolded shelves


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## Desert_Woodworker

+1 not only from me to others who want to see the expanse of "woodworking". In your opinion should woodworking be brought back into the middle school year as an elective- yet they close woodshop and have replaced it with "technology".


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## DS

They closed the wood shops in the schools???

As far as I knew they were adding technology into the woodshops.
My old high school shop teacher is also a long time neighbor and family friend.
He came to me when they wanted recommendations to purchase a CNC router to teach the concepts in wood shop.

He's retired for several years now. I'm not actually certain if they still have wood shop in the high schools.

Mesa has the optional EVIT center for teaching trades to high school students. (East Valley Institute of Technology)

Also, not sure why you have woodworking in quotes in your reply. Everything we made for those projects were made from wood. Highly engineered wood in this case, but, keep in mind this is not everything we do.

The big contemporary projects like that come around a couple times a year. 
All those pics are in the same house. There are a couple dozen more rooms like those as well.

Our typical fare is more Chip and Joanna style White, Grey and Black Shaker cabinets with lots of shiplap paneling everywhere. It is like what White-washed Oak was to the nineties. 
This trend will also become passé once everyone has has their fill of it.

A recent project was in this style, except they added several elements That were painted smurf Blue gloss as accent pieces. The kitchen island, the laundry and the master bath (including a freestanding claw foot tub, all in gloss smurf blue. Everything else was white and grey. She also had drawer pulls which looked "bedazzled" with some kind of CZ stones in them. This design logic is beyond me, but it works on some perverse level.

Anyway, I'm babbling.

We built that gargantuan range hood this week. 
I have some pics, but it is much more impressive in person.

The finishers were debating on how to reach to the center of it for paint. 
It's BIG - 7' wide x 13' tall. It goes to the ceiling at 16' tall.


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## JoeLyddon

That bathroom is Very Large!

Why does it have too be SO Large?

Looks like a lot of wasted space to me…

Is this for a large group or just 2-3 people?

Looks COOL though…


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## Desert_Woodworker

*"Also, not sure why you have woodworking in quotes in your reply. Everything we made for those projects were made from wood. Highly engineered wood in this case, but, keep in mind this is not everything we do."*

*because wood is a carbon-based material *










*and so is wood fiber laminates*









*
Woodworking success is about "joinery" and not having joint failure…*


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## DS

Joe,
It probably seems appropriately sized for a house that is 10,750 sf with 23 rooms of cabinetry. 
(Not sure of the actual total room count, just that 23 rooms have cabinets.)

Some people have lots of money and they would rather put it into "investments" like this than pay taxes on it.
And with the exodus from California with aggressive taxation, lots of people are finding these McMansions affordable in AZ.

That's the best I can figure.

Wasted? 
Probably. 
Welcome to first-world problems.



> That bathroom is Very Large!
> 
> Why does it have too be SO Large?
> 
> Looks like a lot of wasted space to me…
> 
> Is this for a large group or just 2-3 people?
> 
> Looks COOL though…
> 
> - Joe Lyddon


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## DS

DW, does this make us Carbonworkers?
Is it Carbonworking?

Somehow that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as woodworker.


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## JoeLyddon

OK…

Looks like they need more brains than money..

Why not make the inside pool area larger… or the gymnasium bigger…

Making the Bathroom that large just makes no sense at all…

*Going to have some exercise equipment in there too? *
That might make more sense… Easy to take a shower after the workout. 

Must be nice… 



> Joe,
> It probably seems appropriately sized for a house that is 10,750 sf with 23 rooms of cabinetry.
> (Not sure of the actual total room count, just that 23 rooms have cabinets.)
> 
> Some people have lots of money and they would rather put it into "investments" like this than pay taxes on it.
> And with the exodus from California with aggressive taxation, lots of people are finding these McMansions affordable in AZ.
> 
> That s the best I can figure.
> 
> Wasted?
> Probably.
> Welcome to first-world problems.
> 
> That bathroom is Very Large!
> 
> Why does it have too be SO Large?
> 
> Looks like a lot of wasted space to me…
> 
> Is this for a large group or just 2-3 people?
> 
> Looks COOL though…
> 
> - Joe Lyddon
> 
> - DS


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## paulLumberJock

Hi, I am in no way discrediting DS's cool posts about how he did it on the CNC. That was neat.

But Infinity sells a router bit set for people with no CNC to make the joint. I am not sure if someone with a CNC without cabinet software could get it to fold or not, but it's just an FY.

https://www.infinitytools.com/lapped-miter-joint-router-bits-3186


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## DS

Paul, those are cool.
My first thought was, "wow I could tool those up in the CNC!"
Then, I realized they are designed to be used in a router table on individual pieces. (not nested)

Totally doable, though, it might not help with a tight grain match. (Which is my primary use for the joint)


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## paulLumberJock

yea, I think you are right, you might be able to take the bit that has just the V on it, and then use a straight
bit to cut the shoulder, and maybe fold it, but you already have something that works.

I got one of those Amana 91 degree folding miter bits, it's not as nice as your system.
i have not had time to play with it yet. I am just a hobbyist with a diy cnc, not a pro like you.


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## DS

I wouldn't discount what you can do on a hobby machine.

The main difference between a pro setup and a hobby setup is time and scale. 
Plus, you'd be surprised,(or not), how much garbage comes off of some pro machines.

Someone with decent imagination and woodworking skills can make some amazing projects with basic tools.


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## DS

> OK…
> 
> Looks like they need more brains than money..
> 
> - Joe Lyddon


Joe, I make a pretty good living working for clients with more money than brains.
There are worse problems to have, but, it can also be very irritating at times.

Also, there is usually a designer involved in our projects, which often adds a third layer of crazy between the client, the builder and ourselves.


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## Underdog

> Also, there is usually a designer involved in our projects, which often adds a third layer of crazy between the client, the builder and ourselves.
> 
> - DS


Ain't that the dang truth. I work for a client in Atlanta whose designers can literally find 47 different ways to do things… Last week I spent a whole day drawing a floating shelf five different ways… I was completely out of patience at the end of the day.


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## JoeLyddon

> OK…
> 
> Looks like they need more brains than money..
> 
> - Joe Lyddon
> 
> Joe, I make a pretty good living working for clients with more money than brains.
> There are worse problems to have, but, it can also be very irritating at times.
> 
> Also, there is usually a designer involved in our projects, which often adds a third layer of crazy between the client, the builder and ourselves.
> 
> - DS


A Very Good point… If you don't take it, someone else will…


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## DS

I've found that there are only two types of designers-really, really good ones and really, really bad ones.
Middle-of-the-road types don't last long in the business.

It's also usually hard to know which type of designer you've got until it is far too late to do anything meaningful about it.

I've done projects for a couple of designers that managed to promote their own TV shows that make them look really talented.
I can't watch those shows without getting really angry at my TV. 
They rarely show you the truth of what goes on behind the scenes and how the trades are left to try and wring out something resembling a sensible project.

Okay - dismounting soap box now. 
Breath in…breath out.


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## JoeLyddon

Interesting… Simple choices! 

Don't they have a few pictures of things they've done and references…. to help one make the decision?

... or, are they misleading too?


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## Desert_Woodworker

Don't you wish you would have interviewed me at your job fair?
Bottom line I don't care what it looks like but can my project sell?


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## DS

Joe,
the thing is, the client hires the designer.

The builder and the sub-contractors, (me in this case), don't get a say in the matter.


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## Desert_Woodworker

> Joe,
> the thing is, the client hires the designer.
> 
> The builder and the sub-contractors, (me in this case), don t get a say in the matter.
> 
> - DS


Unless you are Wendell Castel then I would make the customer happy…

I enjoy being a freelancer if they are a pain in the ass shut the deal down. If you create a desirable product then they can see what you have to offer- they will come. Are you in Business or Art (creations) when you intermingle the 2 sometimes it can be a good thing (symbiosis) or the client from hell?


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## TransCabinets

What do you mean by HPL and PET? As i am in canada we might call it something else. Or is it a brand name?

Either way a have a question. I am currently trying to do this on my CNC and i am finding that my corners keep braking (like a serrated knife) unless i go all the way through, but when i go all the way through my pieces are moving. They are a bit small (about 4"x5") If i keep it from going through by .1mm-.2mm nothing moves. But thats when i get the crummy corners. When you say that you aren't going through now much are you leaving?

"With veneers, we tape the finished face during the fold and use a burnishing tool to assist the fold, however, quite often it will split, since the veneer is fragile. On end grain folds, it almost always splits, and on a finished end shelf, the end cap is only joined along one edge and seamed along two edges.

The main advantage of this joint in veneer isn't so much the fold, but rather, the grain matching precision it creates and the strength of the joint.

When the face is a brittle material like HPL, we intentionally cut completely through the laminate to get the best corner finish. A light touch with a file takes off the razor sharp corner after.

By far, the best corners are on PET laminates and solid metal laminates that can bend and create seamless corners.

Do you ever get a split in the surface veneer when you fold it?"


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## DS

HPL is high pressure laminate. Sometimes called Formica, or some other brand name.

PET is basically Polyester plastic, or Polyethylene Terephthalate, to be technical.
Mirlux is one we've been using. It is really nice.


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## DS

> What do you mean by HPL and PET? As i am in canada we might call it something else. Or is it a brand name?
> 
> Either way a have a question. I am currently trying to do this on my CNC and i am finding that my corners keep braking (like a serrated knife) unless i go all the way through, but when i go all the way through my pieces are moving. They are a bit small (about 4"x5") If i keep it from going through by .1mm-.2mm nothing moves. But thats when i get the crummy corners. When you say that you aren't going through now much are you leaving?
> 
> - TransCabinets


You didn't say what materials you are using, but, based on what you are describing it is very brittle.

For brittle materials you have to cut all the way through. 
The trick to solve the moving parts problem is to use high strength double sided tape, strategically placed, to hold the parts in place.

Please post pics of your progress.
Thanks!


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