# Unsatisfied with my glue-up. Help?



## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm making these 4-piece legs for a credenza and I'm not happy with how my first leg turned out. Basically I used every clamp I had:



















I tried to wipe away or scrape off the glue as best I could either wet or once it skinned over, but it's impossible to get it all with all these clamps. Also, when I took it out and scraped away the rest, I noticed some gaps all up and down where I couldn't apply pressure.




























I thought about wrapping them with blue tape instead of using clamps, but I'm not sure that would close all the gaps either. Would you recommend some cauls or pieces the length of the legs run down all 4 sides? I'm not sure how that would work with all these different types of clamps but it might be do-able.

Any tips for my next 3? Thanks.


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## Bill_Steele (Aug 29, 2013)

I would say cauls are what you want-running the full length-located over the visible glue joint. Optionally maybe a vacuum bag [e.g. vacuum pump and vacuum bag] and few pin nails to hold them together. I would also make certain that the joint line visible on the outside is exactly as you want it to be during a dry assembly.


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## woodman71 (Apr 19, 2009)

If i may why you cutting your boards like that in the picture . Is it to hide edge gain, if so why not cut 45 degree and they put 1/8 groove about 1/4 deep and use a spine. you have face gain all around and the spine will keep the boards from moving it will not need a lot of pressure to hold them until glue set up. I don't have picture to show you but you could google it or find it on youtube


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

I know what you're talking about. The splines are a good idea but didn't want to mess with angles. Plus they're all already cut. Need to know how to make the best of this glue up.


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

+1 to using cauls to distribute the clamping pressure across the whole piece.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm a little concerned about squeeze-out with cauls that cover the whole piece. I don't think I could cover the entire side, over the joint, could I?


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Would gluing two pieces at a time uncomplicated things? And yes, a caul all along the thin-side of the material is what you need. Pair up the leg pieces, then glue the two halves together with two cauls.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

I would use heavy glue on the inside shoulders then a light coat where the joint is so that you don't get so much squeeze out. 
I would tape each joint together in about 4 places, just to hold them in place. Then I would wipe all the glue, I'm a wet rag guy, some aren't, but if you get the glue up and re-wipe with fresh rinsed rags until you get it all it's fine.
Then I would rap the whole thing with stretch wrap pulling the joints tight as you go. probably 3 or for wraps all the way up and down.
Wrap in the direction that pulls the joint closed.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

A caul, jute or nylon rope tightly wrapped or surgical tubing or even strips of inner tube tightly wrapped would all work. I also see room for more clamps!


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## Kazooman (Jan 20, 2013)

Don't know about the glue, but your first picture suggests that there is an underlying issue with your joinery. Just my opinion, but none of those joints look right. Trying to force them together with clamps and glue never works. Again, it is just my opinion, but every one of those joints looks bad. Fix the cuts on the joinery and the glue will be your friend.


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## pintodeluxe (Sep 12, 2010)

To me, the key is planning the parts to be laminated so you only have to clamp in one direction at a time. 
This could be three boards glued together as the first phase, then 1/4" skins applied to the edges as a second phase.

Another good method is to use a locking miter joint at the router table. You just need to plan your cuts so you only have to clamp in one direction.

I've never seen anyone do a pinwheel glueup with those proportions. I have more than a hundred clamps, and I doubt I could do it any better than you did. I would start over. Cry hard and cry once. Better to lose a few leg parts than a whole project.

On my last project I routed 6 chair legs before I realized the lumber was case hardened and full of cracks. No way to save it, just start over.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> Don't know about the glue, but your first picture suggests that there is an underlying issue with your joinery. Just my opinion, but none of those joints look right. Trying to force them together with clamps and glue never works. Again, it is just my opinion, but every one of those joints looks bad. Fix the cuts on the joinery and the glue will be your friend.
> 
> - Kazooman


Nah they're fine. It's hard to hold them all together with one hand and take a picture with the other. There might be a little bit of flex in the fingers from internal stress but I'm confident the clamps will straighten everything out. They're all square cuts. Maybe this picture helps.










The ends are rough from my rough breakdown of the original boards which also isn't helping that photo, but once they're glued I'm going to true up the ends when I cut them to final length - they're a couple inches long right now.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> To me, the key is planning the parts to be laminated so you only have to clamp in one direction at a time.
> This could be three boards glued together as the first phase, then 1/4" skins applied to the edges as a second phase.
> 
> Another good method is to use a locking miter joint at the router table. You just need to plan your cuts so you only have to clamp in one direction.
> ...


Sorry I'm not throwing away $40 of good parts and the several hours of shop time I've spent so far especially since there's nothing wrong with these. And I'm surprised you've never seen this method before. I swear I saw it in a fine woodworking magazine before as a way of getting quartersawn faces on all 4 sides of a leg without a special router bit. Here's a different example for you:

__
http://instagr.am/p/B86tL0lH-nG/

EDIT: Here's his video explaining it too. He just used blue tape but for some reason I don't trust that approach. Maybe I'm using too much glue?


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

It may be the photo, but I only see one face with q sawn grain on the exposed surface. I too would use this for other work, and buy q sawn lumber and use lock miter joints for the legs.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

I don't care about each face being quartersawn - really all I'm trying to do is avoid the flat sawn cathedral look. I kind of wanted rift sawn all the way around actually, and I only had 3/4 stock. Plus, I'm already here… I'm just a hobbyist, I'm not going to the lumberyard in the middle of a pandemic, and I really just don't like wasting the material. I even kept the little square sectioned pieces I cut out for the notches, haha. Might make an arts and crafts style lamp with those next.

It looks like some sort of caul is going to be the best way to go forward from here. I at least need to try it first. If they all turn out crappy then I'll reconsider remaking them, but I'm not going to quit here without trying. Worst case is I spend a bunch of time learning something. It could be the cauls don't work so I try blue tape on #3, then I've only created 2 that need remaking. And they may not even need to be remade either - this "bad" one can still be squared up (it's oversize slightly right now), and the bad spots could be hidden with creative placement.

I just don't get the give up and start over approach. Maybe in production this is the best use of time, but that's not what I'm here for. I'm trying to solve a problem, which to me is the best part of woodworking (thankfully because I'm usually on a tight budget too).


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

For gluing birds-mouth joinery or miters on long skinny post; i use plastic wrap or clear packaging tape (it stretches too) as clamp. Borg sells this plastic wrap that works. Glue doesn't stick to the plastic.

Used the technique on coat rack in my projects for an example.

One tip I would add is this: For wood glue, need some air to reach glue for outside to set properly. Leave space between clamp rings. Don't want to wrap entire length, unless using a 2 part adhesive (like epoxy).

Best Luck.


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## Lazyman (Aug 8, 2014)

The problem with the thin edge is that you theoretically would need a clamp every inch to get even pressure along the entire joint. A relatively thick caul along the edge will spread the force out more evenly with fewer clamps. The force spreads out at 45° angles from the clamp so the thicker the caul, the fewer clamps you need.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

The quickest, easiest way to make the Quadralinear look leg of Stickley design, is to dispense with the birdsmouth joint all together, and just make a square flat glue up with 2 opposing faces with QS grain best faces out, and veneer your QS to the other 2 faces. Stickley had all kinds of clamping devices to keep the BM's from sliding, and shifting. A flat layered glue up is much easier to do. Once done if someone wants to look up the bottom of the leg, just slap em.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

> The quickest, easiest way to make the Quadralinear look leg of Stickley design, is to dispense with the birdsmouth joint all together, and just make a square flat glue up with 2 opposing faces with QS grain best faces out, and veneer your QS to the other 2 faces. Stickley had all kinds of clamping devices to keep the BM s from sliding, and shifting. A flat layered glue up is much easier to do. Once done if someone wants to look up the bottom of the leg, just slap em.
> 
> - therealSteveN


This. What the original poster did is a ton more effort for no reason. Glue 2 pieces together that are about 1/8" narrower than they are thick together. Cut 2×1/16"-1/8" pieces using the tablesaw or bandsaw, and glue them on the faces that show the glue joints. Flush it up and no one can tell.


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

Maybe I'm missing the point or I'm not sure of the look your are after. I would have used a lock miter joint.

The lock miter bit takes care of the the angle & splines all in a pass. It the photos keep in mind this was a practice run and use stock on hand not caring about grain direction. Also I filled the center to add weight. Clamping is quite easy with the lock miter joint.


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## anthm27 (May 12, 2015)

> I would use heavy glue on the inside shoulders then a light coat where the joint is so that you don t get so much squeeze out.
> I would tape each joint together in about 4 places, just to hold them in place. Then I would wipe all the glue, I m a wet rag guy, some aren t, but if you get the glue up and re-wipe with fresh rinsed rags until you get it all it s fine.
> Then I would rap the whole thing with stretch wrap pulling the joints tight as you go. probably 3 or for wraps all the way up and down.
> Wrap in the direction that pulls the joint closed.
> ...


Brilliant answer above, 
Simple and to the point, no need to change the poor guys design or ideas. Or really have to purchase anymore equipment.
Go with this Jamesonito and I am sure if you PM ed LeeRoy would give you more detailed advice.

Rrgards
Anthm

*EDIT:* I always wipe squeeze out with a wet rag sometimes very wet, and then I finish with a dry rag, IE) I try to get the wood that I,ve wet getting the glue off as dry again as possible with a dry towel or rag.
I make sure my wet and dry rags are ready to go before I glue.


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## Tony_S (Dec 16, 2009)

> I would use heavy glue on the inside shoulders then a light coat where the joint is so that you don t get so much squeeze out.
> I would tape each joint together in about 4 places, just to hold them in place. Then I would wipe all the glue, I m a wet rag guy, some aren t, but if you get the glue up and re-wipe with fresh rinsed rags until you get it all it s fine.
> Then I would rap the whole thing with stretch wrap pulling the joints tight as you go. probably 3 or for wraps all the way up and down.
> Wrap in the direction that pulls the joint closed.
> ...


Thats very similar to the way we glue up hollow newel posts. No miter locks or anything fancy, just simple miters on the corners. No screwing around with clamps at all, just masking tape and stretch/pallet wrap. 
Straight forward, simple, fast and strong….400-500/year?


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## wapakfred (Jul 29, 2011)

Should you decide to use cauls, you can face them with packing tape, the glue won't stick to it (that was mentioned somewhere above. But i think iId try Leeroy's suggestion first.


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## Jared_S (Jul 6, 2018)

> Nah they re fine. It s hard to hold them all together with one hand and take a picture with the other. There might be a little bit of flex in the fingers from internal stress but I m confident the clamps will straighten everything out. They re all square cuts. Maybe this picture helps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are two issues.
1. your joinery has issues (in application not theory)
2. The joinery issues made your clamping method ineffective.

Dont let the clamps touch the red circled areas on the short side… 









Clamps with issues.









The other thing is that your cuts dont look 90 degrees which is causing other issues.

Curved cauls would help, but you still cant clamp on the short edge.


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## Tony1212 (Aug 26, 2013)

OK, so here we are. You've glued things up and it didn't turn out well. Rather than redo everything, how do you fix what you have?

Get a scrap piece of the same lumber used and sand the ever lovin' bejesus out of it with something like 80 grit. Save all of the sanding dust.

Mix the dust with the glue to a paste like consistency and spread it into the joints. You'll probably need a LOT of dust. Maybe you can cut small slivers with a utility knife (along the grain) and glue them into the larger gaps.

It won't be perfect, but it will look better than what you have now. Otherwise you'll have to re-do it all.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with the group suggesting stretch material instead of point load clamps but the central problem I see is that the birds mouth is not properly executed. The cut should be half way, not 1/4" from one side. You are creating a thin edge that makes your life far more difficult than it needs to be.
I've used this type of joint on tapered columns and even masts and the only clamp I used was bungee cord.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> I agree with the group suggesting stretch material instead of point load clamps but the central problem I see is that the birds mouth is not properly executed. The cut should be half way, not 1/4" from one side. You are creating a thin edge that makes your life far more difficult than it needs to be.
> I've used this type of joint on tapered columns and even masts and the only clamp I used was bungee cord.
> 
> - shipwright


Now I'm upset!
I was waiting for the hide glue to come into play, but it didn't.. 
I don't have enough experience with it, but it would make the cleanup a lot easier, right?


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Leroy, of course this would be a much easier job with hide glue. Done correctly it could actually be accomplished with no clamping and come out with perfect glue lines.
I just sometimes get tired of re-stating these things and being ignored.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Paul, I don't think you are being ignored.
For some of us, (mostly me) it's just hard to make a change when you've been doing it a certain way for so long.
It's hard to take the time to experiment, rest assured, I'm listening and when the time is right, I will be giving it a try.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

> Paul, I don t think you are being ignored.
> For some of us, (mostly me) it s just hard to make a change when you ve been doing it a certain way for so long.
> It s hard to take the time to experiment, rest assured, I m listening and when the time is right, I will be giving it a try.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Personally I would not overthink it, four cauls, wrapped in plastic or packing tape to spread the load and rock on.


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## Zort (Jan 15, 2019)

You might want to try using hide glue.

Reasons:
It sets quickly but the pieces don't slide around as much as with yellow glue so you can do a good rub joint and see the fit and then use tape to hold it in place.

Squeeze out is easily removed after drying with a card scraper.

If you aren't happy with the fit after drying, steam will soften the glue, allow you to disassemble the leg and then you can to re-glue it.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

You needed a whole lot of these…..


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> You needed a whole lot of these…..
> 
> - JackDuren


I'm not sure how all those spring clamps will help glue up a leg, unless it's a really skinny one.


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## JackDuren (Oct 10, 2015)

> You needed a whole lot of these…..
> 
> - JackDuren
> 
> ...


You can get them up to 4" opening..Or you can buy other clamps that will open further. I think the vice grip clamps open to 4.5…..it's just about having the right clamps. Cabinet clamps are generally mute when it comes to furniture making….


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## rwe2156 (May 7, 2014)

I don't think its a question of how many clamps, but how you do the glue up.

I've done legs like that, then chamfer the edge back to the glue line.

I put a rabbet on both sides of two boards this might make assembly easier. I don't know if this would make the difference, but I know it would simplify it.

You could also do it in stages (leave the other side as a dry fit) and use cauls along the glue line.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> You can get them up to 4" opening..Or you can buy other clamps that will open further. I think the vice grip clamps open to 4.5…..it s just about having the right clamps. Cabinet clamps are generally mute when it comes to furniture making….
> 
> - JackDuren


Thanks for educating me on that. BTW, clamps are indeed "mute" since they have no vocal chords.


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## Zort (Jan 15, 2019)

> I agree with the group suggesting stretch material instead of point load clamps but the central problem I see is that the birds mouth is not properly executed. The cut should be half way, not 1/4" from one side. You are creating a thin edge that makes your life far more difficult than it needs to be.
> I've used this type of joint on tapered columns and even masts and the only clamp I used was bungee cord.
> 
> - shipwright
> ...


I posted a little while after you and I hadn't refreshed the page. I might be old fashioned but i really like using hide glue. I basically only use Titebond III when I need something kind of waterproof and hide glue for anything else. Just grab a bottle of Titebond Hide Glue and use it instead of yellow glue. I stopped using hide glue for a while because it was such a Pain to soak the flakes, get the double boiler and keep it at the right temperature.


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## Foghorn (Jan 30, 2020)

> I agree with the group suggesting stretch material instead of point load clamps but the central problem I see is that the birds mouth is not properly executed. The cut should be half way, not 1/4" from one side. You are creating a thin edge that makes your life far more difficult than it needs to be.
> I've used this type of joint on tapered columns and even masts and the only clamp I used was bungee cord.
> 
> - shipwright
> ...


I wouldn't consider Titebond Hide Glue to be hide glue in the true sense. I think it's OK for large glueing surfaces for general woodworking, but the horror stories I'm aware of in guitar building (doesn't set sometimes at the worst possible time) and using it makes me very skeptical. It's full of urea and other things to make it easier to use with a longer working time, but the name is the only thing it shares with real hot hide glue. Fish glue with a long working time is a lot more trustworthy IMHO as well as many others on the builders forums I frequent if you want to use an "easy" protein glue.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

This project is a candidate for hot hide glue and rub joints. No clamps necessary (the cut should as I previously mentioned be in the centre of the piece not 1/4" from one side.)
Fish glue would be fine or Old Brown Glue is also good, a better (IMHO) liquid hide glue than Titebond but there is only one hot hide glue.


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## Zort (Jan 15, 2019)

> This project is a candidate for hot hide glue and rub joints. No clamps necessary (the cut should as I previously mentioned be in the centre of the piece not 1/4" from one side.)
> Fish glue would be fine or Old Brown Glue is also good, a better (IMHO) liquid hide glue than Titebond but there is only one hot hide glue.
> 
> - shipwright


I agree that hot hide glue is the cat's meow and I have never tried Old Brown Glue. I had always used hot and then one day I happened to see a brown bottle of glue at my local wood store and picked it up and thought what the heck I'll try it. Before I used it I did a very non-scientific stress test. I did a rub joint with both hot and liquid on maple, 24 hours later both broke at the wood not the glue. It has worked really well for my applications, veneering and other glue ups. I have never had the need to use it on stressed joints. It does seem to take a little longer to set. Most people are turned off at the thought of all the preparation needed for hot so the liquid is a good alternative.


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

Ok, first and foremost thanks for everyone's comments. I appreciate the time spent replying and all the suggestions! I'm determined to make these work barring total catastrophe, and I'm glad I did- I think we got there in the end, and I definitely learned a thing or two along the way.

I tried 3 different methods for glue-ups, and they all had varying results.

1. JBOC - just a bunch of clamps. You saw the results of this above. After crosscutting the pices, the rabbet joints were mostly tight except the thin fingers tended to pull away where I didn't have enough clamps.

2. Cauls. I made some curved cauls by cutting a gradual curve on my bandsaw and smoothing it out on my oscillating edge sander. The curves weren't perfect and wherever there was a "dip" in the profile, the finger on the workpiece wouldn't pull closed. This method actually had slightly worse results because my cauls weren't all the way to the very edge of the piece. It was really hard to position all 4 during the glue-up. But, again, all the major parts of the rabbet joints were mostly closed.










3. Blue tape. I didn't have any so I used frog tape, figured it was the same. I found this method was way easier, and the "finger" part of the joints mostly closed really well. But when I crosscut the pieces to reveal the glue-up, some of the larger parts of the rabbet joint didn't close all the way. Bummer.










And here's side A crosscut, not bad:









And side B, with a few more gaps:









I figured the pieces were solid enough and I could get creative with placement or a tiny amount of filler on the finger gaps, but then my problem was everywhere there was a gap, the piece was not flat. I don't have a jointer. So I ordered some cheap hold-down clamps and made a jointer jig. It worked really great!



















I ran 2 sides through and checked for square. Took a couple attempts but once it was dialed in it was easy to batch out the rest.










Then I ran the other 2 sides through with just the rip fence and now I have 4 flat, square, and true legs to build off of.










I was only taking a shaving off each face - I actually used the pencil trick I use when sanding to make sure I was hitting the whole face. That worked great too. But, because I had a couple attempts to get the first one square, it ended up taking about 1/8 off each dimension in the end (about 1/16 off each face). I did make these 1/16 oversize to start with expecting to have to do a small amount of true-up after the glue-up, but it wasn't quite enough. So now I have 1-15/16" square legs instead of 2". Not ideal but nobody will notice and I can definitely work with it.

And actually, in shaving a hair more off each dimension, it cut off the worst offending gaps on almost every side of every piece.










In the end I'm really happy with how these came out. They're not perfect, but they are indeed salvaged. I learned a ton and now I have a jointer jig for the future. Anyways, just wanted to update you all and say thanks again for the ideas and learning experiences.


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

Glad it worked out for you.

The reason to use the stretch wrap is, because of the thin edge you are gluing, the moisture in the glue will make the edge cup everywhere there is no tape. That lip will try to pull away as the glue sets. The stretch wrap will hold the seam tight all the way down the post giving you a better seam. The stretch wrap will give you plenty of clamping pressure, pulled tight enough and wrapped around enough.

Next time try the stretch wrap, or leave a thicker edge, or try the hide glue.


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## WalkerR (Feb 8, 2017)

Congrats for sticking with it. This is classic 90/10 rule. The first 90% of the project takes 10% of the time/effort/money. That last 10% of the project takes 90% of the time/effort/money.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> [...] or try the hide glue.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan


Are you saying there's hope?


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## LeeRoyMan (Feb 23, 2019)

> [...] or try the hide glue.
> 
> - LeeRoyMan
> 
> ...


Some day…maybe, I mean, you never know.

It's just hard to start another program. (that's what I call it)
I know just what to expect and what the results will be using yellow's. 
Switching takes me into the unknowns, it's a dark scary place 
(when your only as smart as you are.)


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## jamsomito (Mar 26, 2017)

> Glad it worked out for you.
> 
> The reason to use the stretch wrap is, because of the thin edge you are gluing, the moisture in the glue will make the edge cup everywhere there is no tape. That lip will try to pull away as the glue sets. The stretch wrap will hold the seam tight all the way down the post giving you a better seam. The stretch wrap will give you plenty of clamping pressure, pulled tight enough and wrapped around enough.
> 
> ...


Interesting, I had not thought of the moisture issue the glue presents. That makes perfect sense. Unfortunately I did not have any packing wrap on hand this time. I appreciate the suggestions for the future - clearly I did it the hard way this time!


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