# Help with bevel cuts on table saw



## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

I'm trying to build a small decorative box with bevel cuts from a single board. I'd like to have the grain match 3 of the four corners. Afterwards I'd like to cut wooden keys in the corners for strength and decoration.

I'm having trouble cutting the bevels accurately, or at least lining the cuts up with the blade. I've been tilting the blade 45 degrees to the left and pushing the wood through. Should I be pushing the wood through a 45 degree-tilted blade or is it easier to tilt the miter gauge 45 degrees and keep the blade at 90 with the board on its edge?

Also, when marking out the lines on the board to cut what will be the four sides of the box, do I need to account for the kerf of the blade? My blade is around 1/8" thick or so. When I draw the layout lines, should I make them 1/8" thick too?

I feel like I'm overthinking this…


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

I'd say not overthinking, bevels have a higher degree of difficulty as a safety thing than plain rips and crosscuts. A few things to ponder.

I usually stay away from any fence on cross cut bevels, trapping can cause kickbacks/injuries. I sometimes use a fence on a rip bevel though, but always be aware of the possibility of kickback if any trapping occurs. On these cuts I usually use something to mitigate kickback like an anti kickback pawl, board buddies or the like.

On the cross cuts I use my miter gauge and set my blade to 45, and do a pass through with a good quality cross cut blade, not a combo. I go for more teeth, most of them seem to come as an ATB tooth geometry, that is ok.

Now think about what is happening here. You are making a crosscut, but it it isn't a basic cross where you meet, and the teeth immediately engage the wood and start cutting. You are meeting the wood on a bias, so as you start to cut the board has a tendency to creep, that is move away from the teeth, so the cut can get wiggly, and not square pretty fast IF, you don't hold it down FIRMLY. Some miter gauges actually have an overreach hold down clamp, just to make sure you don't get any creep. AGAIN, make sure the off cut just is there, not trapped against the fence.

Miter gauge with hold down clamp You don't need to buy one, just make sure you hold the piece very still as you push through the cut.

Steve here has some thoughts about bevel, and angles. I think he's funny in his delivery. He demonstrates how I do the cut though, check right at the end.


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

Miter gauge square to the table and the blade tilted to 45 degrees. Cut "close" to your layout lines, but don't try and hit them exactly.

Then use a shooting board.

It is one of the few things in my shop I still to this day think, why in God's name did I wait this long to make one of these.

Seriously, take your time to lay out your cuts, rough it(leaving a 16th or 32nd) then shoot until it's perfect.

I knock out perfect miters for boxes and frames so quickly now… it feels like cheating.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Thanks! Haven't made a shooting board yet. Didn't know if I'd ever need one.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

What are the dimensions of the box? If the sides are much shorter than they are long then using the fence is dangerous. In that case you're better off using the miter gauge.

It's foolish to try to make a box by cutting to layout lines. Instead, you need to affix a stop block to your miter gauge to ensure the pieces are exactly the same length. Without that, the box won't be square at the corners. If the box is rectangular, cut the front and back, then reset the stop block and cut the sides.

Personally, I don't tilt the blade. Instead, I made a 45º sled that rides in the miter slot. With it, I can cut narrow pieces for a short box, up to about 9", which is generally about as tall as I go with small boxes. I can take the four pieces that I've cut to precise lengths using stop blocks (I cut them on the miter saw, but you can use the table saw just as easily) and place them on the sled, clamp them with spring clamps and cut. The design of the sled puts the end of the board flush on the table, so I get perfect 45º cuts and the box will have the exact outer dimensions that equal the lengths I cut the boards to.

Edit: Here's a photo to clarify. Simple little sled, but it does the job without worrying about getting the blade tilt exact. I built it to make this tray for my son and have used it countless times since.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

The box will be 12" long by 8" wide. The overall height may be about 3.5" - 4".


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## GrantA (Jul 19, 2014)

You've got good advice already, I'm curious if your box will have a lid? If not, consider going for broke while your at it and cut compound bevels for a box like this! It'll only make you question your sanity for a little bit ;-) I think the end result is worth it


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

> What are the dimensions of the box? If the sides are much shorter than they are long then using the fence is dangerous. In that case you re better off using the miter gauge.
> 
> It s foolish to try to make a box by cutting to layout lines. Instead, you need to affix a stop block to your miter gauge to ensure the pieces are exactly the same length. Without that, the box won t be square at the corners. If the box is rectangular, cut the front and back, then reset the stop block and cut the sides.
> 
> ...


Rich, that sled is really cool.

I do have to disagree with you a little bit though, about it being foolish to cut to layout lines. What it seems you are basically saying is that anyone using solely hand tools would never be able to make a square box, because they aren't cutting things with a stop block. I agree with you on using stop blocks for lots of things, and they can be really helpful in the shop, but I just find a quality marking knife's layout lines to be what works best for me when cutting these kinds of parts. Using a shooting board also removes any blade set up error/slop. (If the blade is set to 45.1 degrees or 44.9. Etc. or if the miter gauge or sled is not dead on 90 to the blade. Most people think their miter gauges are 90 smdegrees ro the blade until they 5 cut test it, and find its off a few thousandths.

Really do like that sled though. I made something similar that slides over the rip fence, hold the boards vertically and allows you to make cuts beyond 45 degrees (like a pair of 52.5 degrees bevels) giving me a 105 degree angle.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Hey Rizzo, got any pics of that fence mounted bevel jig?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I do have to disagree with you a little bit though, about it being foolish to cut to layout lines. What it seems you are basically saying is that anyone using solely hand tools would never be able to make a square box, because they aren't cutting things with a stop block.
> 
> - rizzo


Funny you should bring that up. I was just pondering this whole thread a little while ago and wished I'd qualified my remark with respect to hand tools. My comment was specifically referring to doing on a table saw, which is what the original post was about. For sure hand tools require a different approach. So thanks for mentioning it.

I'll also take the opportunity to suggest to JB that before any cutting he measure out the sequential pieces on the board (in this case, 12, 8, 12, 8 inches) and just write 1 through 4 in those zones. Make the "1" with a flag at the top, or just put an up arrow next to it. It doesn't have to be anywhere near exact, just so the numbers wind up on each piece. It beats the hell out of going back and trying to figure which piece goes with which based on grain patterns, and also which way is up for each board.


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

> Hey Rizzo, got any pics of that fence mounted bevel jig?
> 
> - Gene Howe


I don't have any pics at hand, I could take a few later.

Here is a video though that does an amazing job of explaining the whole thing, by Chris salamone


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

> I ll also take the opportunity to suggest to JB that before any cutting he measure out the sequential pieces on the board (in this case, 12, 8, 12, 8 inches) and just write 1 through 4 in those zones. Make the "1" with a flag at the top, or just put an up arrow next to it. It doesn t have to be anywhere near exact, just so the numbers wind up on each piece. It beats the hell out of going back and trying to figure which piece goes with which based on grain patterns, and also which way is up for each board.
> 
> - Rich


Awesome tip, and something that is often overlooked. People commonly number their pieces but often loose track of the orientation. Great tip.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Well, I took advantage of the nice weather and gave one method a try: my table saw blade at 90 degrees and Incra miter gauge at 45 degrees using a stop block. I used a much smaller piece of poplar than my original dimensions called for and basically maxed out the height of my table saw. So a bigger box will require a different approach.

My bevels are generally pretty flush and even for a first attempt, but not perfect. A few bevel edges stick it by a miniscule amount. Others leave tiny little gaps where they meet on the inside corners. I'm not sure what's happening there.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Don't sweat hairline imperfections. You can deal with situations like that in any number of ways later on. I'm not sure if you've seen this technique for gluing small mitered boxes, but it works great and ensures your joints all are flush. If they're not flush, they won't fit right and it'll look like your angles are off even though they aren't.

Here's a good short video to give you the idea:


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## hairy (Sep 23, 2008)

My t/s is right tilt, so I made a sled for bevel cuts.

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/308986


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## Chashint (Aug 14, 2016)

Hi JohnnyBoy,
I am pretty much an all power tool woodworker and of late I have been experimenting with using mitered corners on my boxes.
Spend however much time is required to get the blade adjusted parallel to the miter gauge slots.
Then get the tilt stops adjusted dead on at 90 / 45 degrees to the top.
Then make sure the blade is still parallel to the slots when tilted to 45 deg (if you are a praying man say a quick one before you initially check this alignment). 
Once this is accomplished it is very helpful (but not absolutely necessary) to have a zero clearance insert for the 45 degree tilt.
It would be even more helpful to have a 45 degree tilt dedicated crosscut sled (I don't have one yet).
If you use the miter gauge put a sacrificial face on it so you can push both sides of the cut past the blade.
If you put the miter gauge on the side of the blade so the short side of the bevel is down it makes using stop blocks to set length and prevent movement much easier and more effective.
Finally the wood needs to be straight and square, if it's warped, cupped, twisted, or otherwise not flat you're in trouble before you start.
If the saw is aligned, the miter gauge is adjusted square, the wood is straight & flat, you use a stop block and hold the wood firmly against the fence and the block…..you can cut accurate repeatable bevels.

If you have a bandsaw look up continuous wood grain wrap and you can have grain match at all four corners.
Good luck.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Here's a few pics of the poplar box. The corners are taped together so that might account for some of the gaps visible. One pic shows what looks like two boards of different thicknesses where they meet. Which is weird because I put the board through my thickness planer first thing.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

> One pic shows what looks like two boards of different thicknesses where they meet. Which is weird because I put the board through my thickness planer first thing.
> - JohnnyBoy1981


Not weird at all… just means that your 45º angle isn't exactly 45º.

Cheers,
Brad


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> I ll also take the opportunity to suggest to JB that before any cutting he measure out the sequential pieces on the board (in this case, 12, 8, 12, 8 inches) and just write 1 through 4 in those zones. Make the "1" with a flag at the top, or just put an up arrow next to it. It doesn t have to be anywhere near exact, just so the numbers wind up on each piece. It beats the hell out of going back and trying to figure which piece goes with which based on grain patterns, and also which way is up for each board.
> 
> - Rich


I have been using this method for years and it works. Use painters tape, what color is your choice but yellow is easier to see a pencil line, or marker.

Rich, that jig is now on my too do list!!!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Rich, that jig is now on my too do list!!!
> 
> - woodbutcherbynight


Awesome. It's so simple, but I hate adjusting the tools. I'd rather feed the wood at an angle. I have plans for a more elaborate one. If I ever build it, I'll post the project.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Those joints are pretty close, JB. That completed box you are holding doesn't suck at all. Get yourself some Timbermate or other filler and those joints defects will disappear.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> What are the dimensions of the box? If the sides are much shorter than they are long then using the fence is dangerous. In that case you re better off using the miter gauge.
> 
> It s foolish to try to make a box by cutting to layout lines. Instead, you need to affix a stop block to your miter gauge to ensure the pieces are exactly the same length. Without that, the box won t be square at the corners. If the box is rectangular, cut the front and back, then reset the stop block and cut the sides.
> 
> ...


You gave one of the best tips here about using a stop block on your miter gauge, so I wonder how do you stop block something on that fence? Seems it would need an infinite length support board to do so.

BTW I do absolutely agree with you about the stop block allowing you to cut same length pieces so you'll end up square, and by that your corners will be tight. I'm not trashing your sled, just trying to figure out what you don't like about the stock being fully supported while it is flat on the deck. If you have a fence on your miter gauge with a stop block, you've stopped creep just with a tad of side pressure back toward the stop block. I dunno, but I call that win, win.

In another post I just typed my mantra, always more than one way to skin a cat, guess this is it maybe.


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## therealSteveN (Oct 29, 2016)

> What are the dimensions of the box? If the sides are much shorter than they are long then using the fence is dangerous. In that case you re better off using the miter gauge.
> 
> It s foolish to try to make a box by cutting to layout lines. Instead, you need to affix a stop block to your miter gauge to ensure the pieces are exactly the same length. Without that, the box won t be square at the corners. If the box is rectangular, cut the front and back, then reset the stop block and cut the sides.
> 
> ...


You gave one of the best tips here about using a stop block on your miter gauge, so I wonder how do you stop block something on that fence? Seems it would need an infinite length support board to do so.

BTW I do absolutely agree with you about the stop block allowing you to cut same length pieces so you'll end up square, and by that your corners will be tight. I'm not trashing your sled, just trying to figure out what you don't like about the stock being fully supported while it is flat on the deck. If you have a fence on your miter gauge with a stop block, you've stopped creep just with a tad of side pressure back toward the stop block. I dunno, but I call that win, win.

In another post I just typed my mantra, always more than one way to skin a cat, guess this is it maybe.



> Here s a few pics of the poplar box. The corners are taped together so that might account for some of the gaps visible. One pic shows what looks like two boards of different thicknesses where they meet. Which is weird because I put the board through my thickness planer first thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That middle pic is a perfect example of creep. The blade causes the stock to move as it tries a shear cut, and often makes that edge line look scooped like that, not straight anyhow.

In that assembled pic it looks like you got it square, except that one corner, and I wonder if taken apart those pieces aren't the same length. Going back to what was said, they need to be as close to exact as possible, differences will make closing hard to do, end result will be a gap, or gaps.


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> Personally, I don t tilt the blade. Instead, I made a 45º sled that rides in the miter slot. With it, I can cut narrow pieces for a short box, up to about 9", which is generally about as tall as I go with small boxes. *I can take the four pieces that I ve cut to precise lengths using stop blocks *(I cut them on the miter saw, but you can use the table saw just as easily) and place them on the sled, clamp them with spring clamps and cut. The design of the sled puts the end of the board flush on the table, so I get perfect 45º cuts and the box will have the exact outer dimensions that equal the lengths I cut the boards to.
> 
> - Rich
> 
> ...


Read that paragraph carefully (I highlighted the key element). The boards are already cut to length. All I'm doing with the sled is cutting the miter.

Trust me, it works.



> I'm not trashing your sled, just trying to figure out what you don't like about the stock being fully supported while it is flat on the deck.


It is being fully supported while it is flat on the deck - of the sled.

As with everything in the shop, there are countless ways of achieving the same result. I turn out dozens of small items using mitered corners a week. If I can save a few minutes setting up the cuts (and knowing they are dead-on) I call that a win.

If you have a different method that works for you then stick with it. Post some photos of your perfect miters so we can see.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

> Hey Rizzo, got any pics of that fence mounted bevel jig?
> 
> - Gene Howe
> 
> ...


Thanks, Rizzo. Just finished a jig like that to hold pieces for a lock miter cut. 
The router fence is also the table saw fence. So, it should work.


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

> Hey Rizzo, got any pics of that fence mounted bevel jig?
> 
> - Gene Howe
> 
> ...


Awesome! looks great!


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

Another question: I originally wanted to put a small music box mechanism on one side on the interior, create a partition of some sort, then have the other side of the partition be open for momentos, etc. (It's for the birth of my first nephew or niece).

The bottom of the box will be 1/4" oak ply. Since wood movement won't be an issue, can I just glue down another piece of oak hardwood as the partition? Or should I just skip the partition idea all together?


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

So, I'm glad I did a practice box before using more expensive material! I've learned a lot about potential pitfalls, techniques, etc.

My box so far looks more like a valet box. Or a really boring drawer. But I'm happy with it as a first attempt. A problem I noticed is with the oak plywood I'm using for the bottom. I'm getting a bunch of chipping when crosscutting on the table saw. Any idea how to avoid that?


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

> So, I m glad I did a practice box before using more expensive material! I ve learned a lot about potential pitfalls, techniques, etc.
> 
> My box so far looks more like a valet box. Or a really boring drawer. But I m happy with it as a first attempt. A problem I noticed is with the oak plywood I m using for the bottom. I m getting a bunch of chipping when crosscutting on the table saw. Any idea how to avoid that?
> 
> ...


Tape, and don't slap it on and start going at it. Take time to seat it flush and make sure you have a good bond. It is not a cure all but it will cut it down quite a bit.


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## MrUnix (May 18, 2012)

That (tape), a ZCI and a proper blade.

Cheers,
Brad


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

high tooth count saw blade will stop most of plywood problem.

I actually don't know what other's problems are with using the fence as a stop, but I would set the angle of the blade and check it with an angle finder, the digital ones are about 30.00 and worth every penny. being a 1/4 of a degree off over 8 cuts adds up quick. I would first cut out my 4 boards square and barely oversized in length and number them as someone else mentioned, keep all the numbers' orientation the same and up/down/side is obvious. Once done I would set the size on the fence and run them along the fence with the board to the outside of the blade and the waste to the inside so the board its self can't bind between the fence and the blade. Hardest part in my experience is getting the board square as stock miter gauges tend to not be that accurate, a well designed sled will solve the problem.


> So, I m glad I did a practice box before using more expensive material! I ve learned a lot about potential pitfalls, techniques, etc.
> 
> My box so far looks more like a valet box. Or a really boring drawer. But I m happy with it as a first attempt. A problem I noticed is with the oak plywood I m using for the bottom. I m getting a bunch of chipping when crosscutting on the table saw. Any idea how to avoid that?
> 
> ...


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## rizzo (Dec 21, 2014)

I agree with what many others have said. Use a zero clearance insert for sure, and a good blade. I switch from my Forrest woodworker II to their duraline blade when doing plywood work and I have no chip out at all.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

> I agree with what many others have said. Use a zero clearance insert for sure, and a good blade. I switch from my Forrest woodworker II to their duraline blade when doing plywood work and I have no chip out at all.
> 
> - rizzo


Thanks man!


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## Fthis (Feb 11, 2018)

Yes, tape. But, don't use clean release tape. Use cheap painters tape that has a lot of sticky. I use Dollar General brand painters tape. The longer you leave it on, the harder it is to get off so do your cutting and get the tape off.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

> Yes, tape. But, don t use clean release tape. Use cheap painters tape that has a lot of sticky. I use Dollar General brand painters tape. The longer you leave it on, the harder it is to get off so do your cutting and get the tape off.
> 
> - WyattCo


I'll try that on the next one, thanks!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

Adding to the discussion… if possible, on a table saw, cut with the face that will show on the top since the tear out will occur on the bottom. If you want to invest in a blade, look for one with 80 teeth and a negative hook angle. My melamine blade, which cuts plywood nicely too, has a -5º hook angle which prevents it from chipping the cut.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

> Adding to the discussion… if possible, on a table saw, cut with the face that will show on the top since the tear out will occur on the bottom. If you want to invest in a blade, look for one with 80 teeth and a negative hook angle. My melamine blade, which cuts plywood nicely too, has a -5º hook angle which prevents it from chipping the cut.
> 
> - Rich


Thanks!


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

I added red oak keys, then tried to use an Irwin flush cut saw to level them off. As you can see, two of the keys chipped out and the flush cut saw left some decent gouges in the poplar sides. Can I run that damaged key through my TS jig to clean it out and just put in a new one?
What other techniques can I use to prevent that chipping out from happening?


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> I added red oak keys, then tried to use an Irwin flush cut saw to level them off. As you can see, two of the keys chipped out and the flush cut saw left some decent gouges in the poplar sides. Can I run that damaged key through my TS jig to clean it out and just put in a new one?
> What other techniques can I use to prevent that chipping out from happening?
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


Yes you can cut that out and replace it. As for the chipping and damage, two suggestions. Get a better flush cut saw. Veritas makes a good one. Also, if you take some sandpaper and hold it grit side down next to the spline you're cutting, it will keep the saw from marring the wood. You can then sand them so they're completely flush.


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## JohnnyBoy1981 (Mar 15, 2017)

The sandpaper trick is a clever idea! Thanks!


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## RichT (Oct 14, 2016)

> The sandpaper trick is a clever idea! Thanks!
> 
> - JohnnyBoy1981


Not mine. I saw it somewhere…lol Works though.


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## jat (Oct 24, 2010)

My stock is 15" square and 3/4" thick. I want to rip cut it into strips 1 1/2" long at 30 degrees. Can I do this with one setup? After my first cut, the stock is left with a 30 degree bevel on the left side. If I run it through again at the same setup, there will be a bevel on both sides of the off cut.

Is there some acceptable method I'm missing?

Thanks for any help.


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