# What the heck should I do here, pretty peeved....should I be



## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

I spent the whole day working on my sled today and after lunch I milled down the Ultra high density plastic, dadoed the bottom of the sled to capture the runner and then I pre drilled holes and had it perfectly sized for the miter slots on the table saw; however when I screwed it in from the bottom (by hand with only a little pressure) at each and every screw hole there was a slight bulge so I spent the next 4 hours shaving sanding etc. on the runners to just hit that point where it would slide without binding but now I can feel ever so tiny of a wiggle when the sled is pushed all the way forward where the blade wold be passing under the rear fence. When I say a tiny amount of wiggle I am putting my hands on either side of the sled and push back and forth I end up getting .002 of movement left to right. I have a hard time accepting this as I am a complete perfectionist but my wife said I am chasing something Ill never get. I am thinking of running and picking up some hardwood in the morning and making some good old wood runners and redoing it. What do you think?


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## Sawkerf (Dec 31, 2009)

That's pretty insignificant. This is woodworking, not tool and die machining. Try some paste wax on the runner, sled and saw table. It's ok if it's a bit stiff - it will wear in eventually.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Tighten those screws another 1/2 turn if it bothers you. I know the feeling. In the big picture, it doesn't matter, but it still bugs yoiu ;-( I like wood runners glued on. They stay put where I clamped them on top the saw ;-)


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## doughan (Apr 22, 2011)

take up faceting


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## RandyM68 (Jan 20, 2012)

You'd probably better just throw it away and start over. You'll never be able to live with all that slop, you'll make more scrap than good parts. But seriously, two thou doesn't mean anything unless you are going for a press fit on a bearing or something important. You can make new runners, but chances are, they will be just a little off, too. If they fit perfectly, and are made out of wood, they will lock up in the slot when the humidity goes up, and wiggle just a little when it goes down. I have that problem with my oak runners, and was thinking of using plastic. Maybe, if you counter sink the holes just right, it won't swell when you tighten it, but I'll bet it does. I've machined a lot of plastic on a mill. It is almost impossible to get perfection with a $200,000 CNC. That stuff moves all over the place, when you machine it, and when you screw it down. The only way that you might get it perfect, is if you make the runner over-sized, screw it in place, and trim it to fit. Good luck.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

Tightened up the screws in a pattern and it took up some so then I added a few strategic ones and bam it is just about perfect.

Thanks Topamax, I did not think those little screws would put up with the stress of trying to compress it more but they have held out pretty good and the few extras was all that it took.

Judging by the comments if it does get a tiny out of whack in the future maybe I won't fret soo much. I just like to have my equipment and jigs just about perfect so that I am the only one to blame when things don't come out instead of chasing down equipment errors.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

I've made some runners out of rolled steel and filled it to fit. You could try adding a little epoxy on the loose end and sand to fit or try putting a thin strip of the metal type duct tape on the loose end and see if it's the right size to cure the problem.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

You can tap holes in the sides of your runners and put a set screw. You
could probably tune it out with 1 tapped set screw if you correctly
identify where the most slop is occurring. There are other ways to
shim or make a runner bulge too. Look at commercial models to
get some ideas. I think there is a kit with set screws and phenolic
plugs available… but generally meant for miter gauges. I think it might
be a Woodhaven product.

That said, wood neither accepts nor demands the precision metal
machining does.


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## crank49 (Apr 7, 2010)

If you want perfection, make the whole sled out of cast iron next time.

Seriously though, did you use flat head screws in counter sunk holes? i.e. angled bottom on the head.
If so, that is the basis of the design of some jigs to be adjustable; exactly like you just found.
Plastic is very good at a physical attribute called "plastic deformation". Wonder where they got that name?

One way to reduce this effect is to counter bore (flat bottom) holes and use a pan head or flat washer head screw.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

I think the part that bugs me about the plastic is it is pretty hit or miss as far as how much smaller you should cut it then the total width of the miter slot since you don't really know how much it is going to deform once screwed. I could not really believe how much it bulged with very little pressure. I initially cut it about .002 less width then the slot and that is ENTIRELY too tight for a plastic runner unless you want to do a lot of fitting. So what would I cut to next time….don't know but it would be a fair amount less. Now that I do have it about perfect I am pleased to have something on there that will stay the same regardless of weather.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I was thinking like A1. Buy a spark plug gap tool, cut it up, drill a small hole for the epoxy to collect, and glue a shim on each side. Good luck!
Edit: you could also strip off the runners and buy some Incra ones.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Just a thought….yeah, I get one every several weeks…I wonder if gluing in a wood or phenolic block or dowel, then counter sinking a hole through that, would work. Don't use much UHMW so not sure about the glue to use.
To save the hassles, I just buy metal sliders.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

Wait until the weather warms up a bit more … the fit will be very tight … next winter, it will have gobs of slop. That is the major drawback to UHMW … it moves with temperature changes … and it moves a LOT. I have bunches of it that I picked up where I worked as scrap … the only place I use it is where I need to reduce friction AND the application requires zero precision.

As for gluing shims to it … forget about it … there is only one adhesive that will truly bond to UHMW, and it's very $$$$. Even with that, it's only really good for sticking two pieces of UHMW together … anything else has a different thermal expansion coefficient, and the constant flexing eventually will break the bond.

I've com to using LEXAN (also old scraps from work) ... not as slippery, but much more stable … and it wears like iron.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Were you using countersunk heads? If you want to fasten UHMW and not have it deform you would have better luck with pan head screws in flat bottomed counterbores. If that is what you did…............. never mind


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

Yes I used bugle type heads, however even flat bottom heads would still deform it to some degree although I agree it would be less.

Fuzzy, could you take a pic of your lexan system?


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

How did you measure that alleged 0.002?


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

One way Multi gauge.

Like I said, I ended up adding some more screws to make it just about perfect on snug then I used the 5 cut method twice and got lucky with a .0005 variance from front to back and locked her in. I have used the sled a ton over the past two days making a lot of clamp hangers and such and could not be happier…now.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

That ought to do it!


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

Should have seen the grin on my face, no more tinkering and confidence in it being dead nuts. Now that I have used it a little though I am starting to think about changes for my next one. Essentially I built the Eagle Woodworking super sled with a few minor modifications.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

"Yes I used bugle type heads, however even flat bottom heads would still deform it to some degree although I agree it would be less.
Fuzzy, could you take a pic of your lexan system?"

Not much to show in a picture, but, I'll try to get you one.

One thing I like to do differently, since LEXAN works so well … I drill & countersink from above using my tap drill size bit … then tap the runners 1/4-20 and, finally drill the holes through the sled for clearance. A tiny bead of Liquid Nails helps secure the LEXAN to the bottom of the sled, and then I pull the runners up by installing the screws from above. I do the entire procedure with the runners in their respective slots in the saw table so nothing can move.

If you want to try a few LEXAN runners, send me a PM with an address, and I'll send you a bit of material.


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## D_Allen (Oct 11, 2010)

I was able to make a sled using some UHMW but had, and still have, the problems TDog mentioned.
It's necessary to have to fiddle with it some each time I use it. I tried to make another one later and failed miserably. My next one will be using the 18" Incra slider. It's the IMS18 and I've seen it for $15 some places.
Has the adjusters build right in.


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## TechRedneck (Jul 30, 2010)

I think Al mentioned above. You can get the Incra runners. I have one on my Incra miter gauge.

http://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Miter_Slider_18_p/ims1.htm


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## KenBee (Mar 9, 2011)

The pic below is basically what my sled looks like except mine has individual clamps to clamp the stock. I also lined the backing blocks with sandpaper to help hold the stock in place. I used 1/2 inch Lexan base plate and a miter slide using countersunk screws through the base to hold the slide in place. The front backing block is adjustable to accept stock up to 8 inches wide, but the one last thing I want to do is place a clamp on the front backing block to help hold the wider stock in place.

Strangely enough I built mine to route 45 or whatever degree angles on the end grain of my box carcases. The sled utilizes the miter slot in my router table as well as the fence to route almost perfect angles for my boxes that require very little if any sanding after routing.


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## BillWhite (Jul 23, 2007)

Perfection in woodworking is in the eye of the beholder. The part ya mill will NEVER be the same one day to the next. Wanna come on down to true up some of our antiques? You'll loose your mind.
.002? I'll take that any day.
Bill


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Learn to live with these types of error it's woodworking not major highly significant engineering measuring .I wish you well but lighten up some and actually if you don't you'll never make anything with a perfectionist attitude it will only make your life a misery, when the object is to enjoy your woodworking 
The best example comes from Frank Klaus a great woodworker ,who said don't spend all day measuring and marking out dovetails if there are gaps fill them in with sawdust and glue no one will know. Alistair


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## toeachhisown (Eddie) (Mar 30, 2011)

*tdog* this was a good post my old sled is getting worn and will replace . picked up a lot of tips

*techredneck* thanks for the link will go with these on the next one


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## Kickback (Mar 9, 2011)

I recently bought some of this T-Track runner from Peachtree and it fits like a glove in the miter slot of my Rigid TS3650. I am going to buy some more of it to replace the wood runners on my crosscut sled. They will completely remove any slop I currently have and they slide like butter in the t-slot.










" http://www.ttrackusa.com/track_%20systems.htm#1031"


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

0.002?.....0.0005? Really 0.0005? Four hours sanding, shaving over 2 mil? I usually don't appreciate when people use the internet to make some snide wisecrack, but please, are you serious? How did you go from years of rough carpentry to fretting over 2 mil, and survive. I mean think about it. 0.002 today is 0.009 tomorrow, is 0.004 the next day, is 0.007 the next day. In a week your jig will vary by more than you "got lucky" with today. Are you going to try and reset it every time it slips 0.002? A human hair on average is 1 mil, a piece of tissue paper (squeezed) is 1 mil, 25 microns is 1mil. I get it that you are a perfectionist, but this behavior drove past perfectionist and rang the bell a long time ago. I know several professional woodworkers that take immense pride in their work. Years of investment to hone their skills and understand the medium they work in. Their work displayed in the finest homes that oil money can buy in Houston. Beautiful piece work any sane person would consider perfection, and sold for small fortunes. They would be offended and think it a joke that someone is seriously complaining a jig was off a mil or two. What does that say about their work? But through this whole thread, rather than the fine folks at LJ recommending your time better spend in honest therapy, and I mean that in all sincerity, they provide excellent advice, alternatives and options to get you through this episode. Thumbs up to the caring folks at LJs. I'll catch flak for being mean, inconsiderate of your feelings, misunderstanding your condition. I will always shoot you straight. You can depend on that. Take my comments as intended and reflect.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

.002? try painters tape at the bad spot.

The most accurate machines I've ever used only claimed to be within .007 of an inch, and people looked at me funny when I told them I could only guaranty that kind of precision, then I explained that that was the margin of error of the machines… They were rather extremely particular with everything I did, had to be down to the 256th or so, other guys at that shop could be a sixteenth off and no one would say a word to them… just weird and bad memories….


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

"0.002?.....0.0005? Really 0.0005? Four hours sanding, shaving over 2 mil? I usually don't appreciate when people use the internet to make some snide wisecrack, but please, are you serious? How did you go from years of rough carpentry to fretting over 2 mil, and survive. I mean think about it. 0.002 today is 0.009 tomorrow, is 0.004 the next day, is 0.007 the next day. In a week your jig will vary by more than you "got lucky" with today. Are you going to try and reset it every time it slips 0.002? A human hair on average is 1 mil, a piece of tissue paper (squeezed) is 1 mil, 25 microns is 1mil. I get it that you are a perfectionist, but this behavior drove past perfectionist and rang the bell a long time ago. I know several professional woodworkers that take immense pride in their work. Years of investment to hone their skills and understand the medium they work in. Their work displayed in the finest homes that oil money can buy in Houston. Beautiful piece work any sane person would consider perfection, and sold for small fortunes. They would be offended and think it a joke that someone is seriously complaining a jig was off a mil or two. What does that say about their work? But through this whole thread, rather than the fine folks at LJ recommending your time better spend in honest therapy, and I mean that in all sincerity, they provide excellent advice, alternatives and options to get you through this episode. Thumbs up to the caring folks at LJs. I'll catch flak for being mean, inconsiderate of your feelings, misunderstanding your condition. I will always shoot you straight. You can depend on that. Take my comments as intended and reflect."

I don't even know where to start other then by saying I wish you would just butt out of the post.. I would love to say a few other choice things but know they won't make it very far before removal. You have no idea where I am coming from and make a lot of assumptions in soo many ways from a lack of understanding from both the original error and my sanity and such. Honestly I do appreciate the laugh though, straight shooter.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

I only said what many other believe, but were to polite to say. I don't suffer from ingratiation, nor fools. I never expected you to admit needing help, or more than you are getting now. Most people with your condition don't admit to much of anything. That would not be perfection. Your denial is covered by perfection. It's more acceptable. And you are all about perfection, right? You must know. How could you not. No one is laughing at you. That would just be cruel. You are only laughing at me. And that is just expected. You have laughed off your condition your whole life. I may could have cottled your condition more sociably, but I'm not a shrink, or your best bud. So I'll go away because there's nothing to see here. Bang Bang, Shootin' you Straight, again.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

WOW….I could say soo much but will waste absolutely no more time with you sir.

For those of you who care and have been contributing or paying attention to this post I have used my sled many times since it's completion with great success and it has held tight and true. I have built multiple other jigs since then and all have worked out great with no frustration and all that was needed was a little input from fellow jocks to not try to hit absolute perfection simply because it is not needed. I simply try to do things right from step one and when I was taught that certain levels just are not needed then I moved on. I still try to get things pretty dang close which is part of my taken pleasure in finer woodworking and this exercise with my first sled taught me a lot about jigs, which material to use in the future and which ones not to use, techniques etc.. The forum member Fuzzy was kind enough to send me some Lexan for future projects which I am really excited to use and will post my results when I give it a shot and give it a nice comparison between the plastic that I am currently using. I guess the real problem I will have is finding time to make it out to the shop between my shrink sessions, heck maybe they will deem that I am unfit for handling sharp tools and I will have to send everything down the road so keep an eye out for some of my things.


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## MrRon (Jul 9, 2009)

No, you should not. You need to accept the fact that wood has it's limitations, that it will expend and shrink and there is nothing you can do about it; so learn to live with it and stop wasting your time. The trick is learning to work around those limitations. They can be used to your advantage as so many woodworkers have discovered. That's what makes woodworking enjoyable; the challenge of man against wood.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

There is (IMO) absolutely nothing wrong in striving for perfection. It only humbles you a bit when you realize how difficult it is to attain, and that you are forced to "settle" for something less. If your tools are all checked & determined to be in alignment, you have nothing to blame but yourself when cuts are dimensionally inferior.

Sure, wood moves, but if I cut box joints in two pieces of construction grade 2 X 6 … BOTH pieces move at about the same rate, so the joint should continue to fit pretty darn close to the way it did when first cut. LOTS of folks use the wood movement excuse to mask some of their own skill deficiencies. If it makes you feel better, go for it, but, deep down, you know if you made that joint correctly or not.

I had a Brother who needed to rebuild his deck in order to sell a house he had … he was a cracker-jack tool & die maker … worked on missile defense stuff under gov't contract … he didn't own any woodworking equipment other than a pretty nice circ. saw … BUT … he DID have a pretty nice milling machine !!! Every joint on that deck was cut on a mill … and they were as perfect as could be, considering the material had some defects … sure, it was a waste of time, but he enjoyed the challenge … AND he learned a lot about the properties of wood in the process. He later took up woodworking as a hobby and created some beautiful projects with a minimal investment in tools. Almost every jig that he saw in a magazine or catalog … he would produce in this machine shop … then put them to use in his woodshop … he learned where perfection was worth attaining, and where it wasn't. His jigs were always dead on, and the projects he created using them showed the results of his endeavors. We lost him 7 years ago this month, and I miss him every day … I really miss his ability to put the quest for perfection in proper perspective as only he could do.

If you have the desire to pursue perfection in any endeavor … only you can judge it's worth … if you wish to settle for close enough, that's fine for you, but please don't cop out with the "wood moves" excuse … just admit that it's the best you can do and get on with it.


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## dhazelton (Feb 11, 2012)

The poster wants a sled that doesn't rock. He asked for advice on how to achieve it. If people can't offer advice on how to achieve it then they shouldn't comment. A lack of response could say as much as all the bashing going on here.

That said, I would try the aluminum pre-drilled rails that Rockler sells, and maybe some MDF as opposed to plastic. If you start with rails that are longer than your saw is deep, and you place them in the miter slots with overhang on each end, then you can accurately affix them to the sled without error. A bit of a waste, yes, but I've never been able to rip oak or ash to that level of tolerance. Then again, what the hell do I know.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 25, 2007)

Rockler's rails are nice … as are the ones from INCRA … I just don't happen to believe they are worth the $$$$.

I make mine from LEXAN, simply because I have several hundred square feet of raw material in a variety of sizes & thicknesses. It can be machined with common woodworking tools … can be polished to a very fine & smooth finish … and it wears like iron. In the unlikely situation where it does show any wear, the rails on a sled can be replaced independently of each other, so you can replace them without losing the accuracy or registration of the sled/jig in question. The stuff drills & taps like metal … is very thermally stable, which is actually a plus over the aluminum slides, though not by much considering the application … and I have gobs of it to use up. I understand mine is an unusual circumstance having that kind of stash to work from, but it has been a blessing when it is time to build jigs & fixtures.

I've tried UHMW, as I also have a pretty nice stash of it also … it is much more slippery, but not nearly as thermally stable, so, I keep going back to the LEXAN. I use the UHMW where dimensions are not critical, but slippery is. For example, I sometimes embed wear strips in dadoes cut into the bottoms of some larger sliding jigs, leaving only a few thousandths of an inch protruding from the bottom surface. Makes very heavy jigs slide like ball bearings are under it.


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## mcase (Oct 31, 2009)

When I joined this site one of the things that attracted me was a sense of camaraderie. This seems to be disappearing. I don't just mean this thread, though this is another shining example of the kind of personal snipe that make people reluctant to share or even ask a question. So David I'll shoot straight. Your comments are out of line. You don't know what others are thinking so speak for yourself. I resent the suggestion that your raid on this thread represents any general feeling or consensus. It doesn't. Tdog is not complaining that his cuts are off a couple of thousandths - that would be silly. He is concerned about the play in the rails of a crosscut jig. Any play there is exponentially exaggerated in the cut. A couple of thousands play in the rails can add up to a hundredth in the cut which is indeed visible and in the case of a a face frame would throw the piece way out of square. So hes not crazy as you suggest, but just a guy crafting something that needs to be precise to produce precise results. Sound pretty sane to me.


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## redryder (Nov 28, 2009)

Kickback, thanks for the link to Peachtree. This looks like a good material for future projects…............


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

mcase, I agree somewhat but would say camaraderie has diminished, thought not disappeared. To be expected with over 40,000 members now verses much less when I joined, and even fewer when I lurked. The point is "Have your say…". I had mine. You had yours. We can have as many as we want.

I could have been more considerate if Tdog had ask if 2 mil was unacceptable play in his sled. If he were crossing cutting 3' wide boards, then maybe 2 mil would actually show up in the calculus, not accounting for all the other errors - that play into the equation. However, that was not the case.

Rather than Tdog asking a simple question about acceptable jig tolerance, he ask about the benefits of wood runners. Another simple question but it begs the question, if nonporous, impermeable HDPE will not give him the perfection he seeks, then porous, permeable, shrink-swell hardwood, softwood, whatever…will? If he is totally ignorant of understanding wood movement, even then I would be much more accommodating. We are not born with that knowledge.

However, his blog was not about runner materials, wood movement, sleds, acceptable tolerances, woodworking. He wanted attention paid to what he calls perfectionism. I have another name for it. Not good or bad, just a human condition some have, and can be treated. 2 mil error and 4 hours trying to correct it is a no-brainer for me.

There is a reason he focused on this. I thought he was aware, and chided him for looking to LJ to have a therapy session. Obviously he is not ready go forward. Not that my approach would bring him around. Never thought it would.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

I got the help on the project that I needed and then some completely removing the wiggle and have even more material options for future ones thanks to members here…it is fixed and it is done. With that being said I am completely done with Dave and his nonesense psycho babble crap and would appreciate the moderator closing my post. On a little side note Dave, regardless of your knowledge or lack thereof with wood try and refrain from future offerings in my posts.


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## davidroberts (Nov 8, 2008)

Tdog, I believe you can have anyone you wish blocked from your blogs. Not quite sure of the process. I could be wrong. Never tried. There is value in all posts, some more than others. Everyone gets their say. It's an open forum. My nonsense psycho babble crap must have hit a nerve. I didn't know how sensitive you are to the subject. My mistake. Fat people are usually sensitive to being called, well, fat. Regardless of my knowledge or your lack of it is not the point. It never was. My knowledge is average at best. No shame in not knowing something. We learn by asking. Most folks commented don't sweat a mil or two first, because that is the important part to the message. Anyone can figure out a suitable material to use for runners, without filling half their blog with descriptions of a psychiatric condition. We all have our problems. Many discuss theirs in the Non-shop Talk forum. Try it next time.

BB SYS. Always.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

What hits my nerve is foolery and ignorant assumptions based on very little information. Ill look into that block, thanks.


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## AkBob (Jun 5, 2011)

Mcase;

*"When I joined this site one of the things that attracted me was a sense of camaraderie. This seems to be disappearing. I don't just mean this thread, though this is another shining example of the kind of personal snipe that make people reluctant to share or even ask a question."*

You sir, hit the nail on the head!!! I left this site months ago for this very reason, and only signed in today to see if I could retrieve a picture of a project that I had sold, and no longer own. Whilst being here, I clicked on the first forum link to see if any one I knew was still around and, well…

Glad I left, but I am sorry to see Lumberjocks falling prey to the same type of trolls and idiocy that have ruined other forums. I especially feel bad for all the helpful and nice people that once frequented this site.


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## TDog77 (Dec 17, 2011)

I do have to say that I have got some excellent help from both searches and posts on here especially when compared to other sites and in a timely manner to boot.


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## doughan (Apr 22, 2011)

you should get rid of the wood working tools and take up gem cutting then you can look at sixteen way miters coming together and really drive yourself nuts and no one will see your mistakes either


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