# The Kiss Rule



## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Ok, I see a lot of this, so I have to comment. In the woodworking business world we have a general rule of thumb. The K.I.S.S. rule.

Keep 
It 
Simple
Stupid.

A lot of you hobbyists are mixing multiple finishes, and doing a lot of unneccessary things to obtain finishes that are much easier with conventional products readily available just about anywhere, including Wal-Mart.

I understand you want to do something special, unique and awesome. I do this quite often honestly, I have plans to make some stools in the near future for a customer that are going to be a one of a kind kind of design. BUT, I'm not going to try to spend extra time doing bizarre steps, such as putting asphalt on the wood to fill the grain, I mean really? I can't imagine how much of a nightmare it would be to get that crap off the wood and get the wood looking decent again.

SO I will leave you with this, Keep it simple stupid.


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

You're not giving us newbies a lot to go on there. I did try something from Walmart. Everything in one can. Can't get any simpler than that. Over a week later and it still feels like the shower floor at your local gym 30 days after the janitors go on strike. 

So what would you consider an easy conventional finish for a hobbyist?


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## BBF (May 13, 2013)

Stupid is as stupid does. I don't know but it has something to do with a box of chocolates.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

JustJoe,

Ah you used the Polyshades, yeah, for these types of things read the reviews before you buy. There are a lot of poor reviews for that stuff on this site. It's better to use a stain, then the poly by the same company than to use that stuff.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

Rule 1 - try any new finish on scrap first

My go to finish procedure: Minwax polyurethane (solvent based, not water based)
I put on 5 or so coats of gloss until the film thickness looks good, and is level and smooth as baby skin. I lightly sand with wet/dry silicone carbide sand paper progressing from 320 to 400 grit between coats. Since I think glossy finishes look like plastic, I use a rattle can to put on 2 coats of semi-gloss polyu for the final layers. (Using semi-gloss for all the coats would result in a "muddy" appearance.) At this point sanding is usually not necessary. After the final coat I put on a coat of Johnson paste wax using 0000 steel wool. The wax is probably unnecessary but it knocks down any dust nibs that collected during the final coat.

Hardly ever stain wood, but I have made some pieces out of poplar, and I used Transtint Dyes with water to get the desired color.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Joe,

Read the label on how to apply poly… Too thick can be a problem in poly, the layer on the wood never cures, the outside layers do, it cracks.

Keep it simple.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

TCC, I'm with you. I use as few finishes as possible and procedures as possible.
No need to complicate things.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree that when you are in business keeping it simple often helps the bottom line but when you are a hobbyist you don't have to make a profit and so are free to challenge yourself with more intricate designs and procedures.

Personally, simple bores the crap out of me. The more complicated the project, the more enjoyment I get out of trying to achieve it and enjoyment is what makes it a hobby. Does that make me stupid?


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

NO, but most products aren't meant to be mixed with others, like alcohol based with oils, and water with oils…
And a lot of the hobbyists that give advice lately are giving terrible advice that will only lead to iffy at best results. And when a pro, or retired pro steps in and says this is why you have blushing or blotching, well they pretty much don't give any respect to people who are giving honest advice to people who really need help with the issues. You know that silly internet game some people play… mean while the guy who asked for advice thinks he needs to smear asphalt on oak to fill the grain…

Then there are the guys who mistake magazine coloumnists for pros, and don't realize that in a lot of circumstances removed from controlled environments, their advice will have drasticly terrible results. But for most beginners and hobbyists, this is where they learn. They don't know that the products are meant to only be applied in a few mils, so they put on coat after coat after coat, improperly sanding between, if not at all, with terrible results.

I see a lot of well, put this on, then you put this on, then you put this on. Or what you need to do is put water on it to raise the grain just before you put your oil based finish on…. oil doesn't mix with water….
Shipwright, you as a retired boat builder have a tremendous amount of knowledge about finishing, most likely, and when you attempt mixing different types of finishes, you most likely know which ones will not work, but guys who are mechanics and what not, well, most of them won't. And a lot of the advice along those lines is well… not from the experts.

What I'm saying is mostly because I have been seeing a metric buttload of people needing help because joe schmoe said this works, and well, it don't…. SO I have to share the kiss rule. Which inevitably doing things according to the labels will yeild better more durable results anyways. Besides, I'd rather save my time and effort for intracacy for the wood work, and keep the finishing easy.


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

TCC. Totally agree. So many threads about the same old crap. My pine is blotchy…......

I think a lot of this is the TV crap. Seems no one can finish wood with out staining it. If you want a walnut color, use walnut. Must be a huge profit in making stain and think about thousands of half used cans taking up shelf space in garages all over north america.

The rare time I stain anything, I pull out my analine dyes and use a color wheel. Yes I do remember what I was taught in HS art class.

I like to use the grain in the wood as part of the design. I like a finish you want to reach out and touch


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## JustJoe (Oct 26, 2012)

"*Seems no one can finish wood with out staining it. If you want a walnut color, use walnut. *"

Well we can't all afford to buy our walnut in complete log flitches, cherry pick the perfect matching color and toss the rest into the burn pile. Stains can be used to even out color-variations between boards, provide contrast, or to make a figure pop. Your aniline dye is just stain with a fancier name. (Yes you can write a book explaining the technical difference, chemical makeup and all that other philosophical BS but the bottom line is stain is used to change wood appearance, dye is used to change wood appearance. potato. potato.)

"*If you want a walnut color, use walnut. " *
And if I want to use ebony, should I remortgage the house to buy the wood, or will I be forgiven for buying a $5 can of ebony stain? I just made a plane tote/knob in the color I wanted for less than $1. How much ebony can I get for a buck?


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

K.I.S.S. works for me. But like paul, I like to play, too. Keeps the juices flowing and the brain active.
Who needs boring?


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## ClintSearl (Dec 8, 2011)

Well put, TCC. For the guy without a spray outfit, there's not any finish effect that can't be produced, from a close to the wood oiled effect to a high gloss, with only a high quality (not Minwax) oil based poly.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I often use the KISS philosophy on all sorts of things not just woodwork, but I don't use it all the time and on everything I do.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

KISS is fine for lots of us, but I want to learn in this hobby I've recently taken up. Maybe what you're saying is that we shouldn't post questions, but instead search books for finishing guidance. That seems to be a shame, as Q&A seems to be one of the reasons this site exists.

Would S - Simple- in KISS foot-the-bill when finihsing a poplar piece as well as it would serve a flame cherry or a tiger maple or walnut piece?

If you get tired of teliling us newbies that we've got rocks in our heads, or that we should NOT follow some hare-brained recipe, maybe just skip that post and save your advice for more appropriate posts.


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## LakeLover (Feb 2, 2013)

Joe. I understand about access to good wood. Well I live in the northern treeless planes of Canada. No wood is cheap.

I hate to see you guys say you can get hardwoods for $2.50 bd ft. Heck anything under 6 is good Does not matter what kind of wood it is. Anything exotic starts at 10 and rapidly goes up. That is at the wholesale level. The Borgs are even worse.

No problem ebonizing some things. I do have a large grasp on costs. I am cheaper than a misquitos ass.

Just trying to say. not everything needs stain. Let the wood darken gracefully.

Another analogy. I see people use pressure treated wood in all the wrong places. It is not a cure all for no maintenace. and then people buy the stuff cut it, then don't seal the cuts. Yes even respected builders. That is a double money waste, and a very dilluded "Value" to the end user.

Quote
Your aniline dye is just stain with a fancier name. (Yes you can write a book explaining the technical difference, chemical makeup and all that other philosophical BS but the bottom line is stain is used to change wood appearance, dye is used to change wood appearance. potato. potato.)

A bit of a bee under your bonnet.

Using the KISS principle I can use a colorant, with any base, solvent , water, PVA, Epoxy, paint base oil or latex. etc. As mentioned we don't have every supplier you folks have so you learn to use what is cheap, avalible and what your end product whats to look like, from wood working, to repair boats, pouring concrete, etc.

Ain't rocket science, you learned it all in HS if you were paying the bare minimum in attention. And I spent more time looking up skirts than the chalk board.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Mig,
Ask away, I'm just saying when someone gives you a simple answer and says use a simple procedure, don't mock them. I understand people want to play, not the point. What I'm saying is people shouldn't add 42 completely unnecessary steps that will give you a horrible outcome.


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## BigMig (Mar 31, 2011)

TCC, you're absolutely right. If you ask someone for their opinion, have the common courtesy to treat that person with respect and gratitude regardless of whether you use their advice or not. I hope I've always done that on this group…

Thanks for the manners reminder.


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## NiteWalker (May 7, 2011)

"I don't know where the rule came from that everything needs to be sealed with shellac first, but that seems to be the normal answer here." 
Not everything; mainly when using finishes that may be otherwise (possibly) incompatible, a coat of dewaxed shellac will prevent any issues. I use a coat of dewaxed shellac on my projects because my go to clear coat is a waterborne and doesn't really add any pop to the grain. If I were using an oil based finish I'd not bother with shellac first.

"Maybe what you're saying is that we shouldn't post questions, but instead search books for finishing guidance." 
What he's saying is that finishing doesn't need to be complicated.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

@TCCcabinetmaker - Read the label on how to apply poly… Too thick can be a problem in poly, the layer on the wood never cures, the outside layers do, it cracks.

I do read the label and follow it, and it does not say not to put on multiple layers. It says wait several hours before the next coat, and if you don't put the next coast on for x days sand lightly before recoating.

I have put on as many as 8 coats and never once has it cracked, and pieces done 30 years ago look just as good now as it did then. If your idea of good is an Earl Schieb paint job, then KISS is ok.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

Am I the only guy who likes Wallmart I used to en joy a plod round there when I was in the good old USA.
Cheep-n-cheerful. LOL Alistair


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Joe, you are in arkansas. You have constant low humidity, your hottest days are cool to me. What works for you won't work for me. My finishing techniques have been used on million dollar mansions, 5 star hotels, banks…. Poly generally isn't what I'd consider a high end finish in the first place, but if you take your methods and move them to a different environment, you will have horrible results, and that's what I'm getting at. And yes if you call up the poly manufacturers you're gonna find that you are supposed to have a maximum of 3 coats. 8 is over the thickness that they will warranty…


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

TCC, I think you are just plain wrong about poly. You also are wrong about Arkansas. While our weather conditions are more moderate than Alabama, it's a stretch to say we have constant low humidity. Irrespective of that, humidity MAY affect curing rates, but not result in horrible results. One other thing, in my initial comment I said that I sand between each coat which reduces the total thickness. But - I have NEVER seen any poly mfg talk about a maximum of 3 coats.

Read this link http://lumberjocks.com/DennisLeeZongker/blog/26446 and then tell me again that poly is not a high end finish. You'll also see that he uses more than 3 coats. Zonger's is unquestionably a top drawer shop, and at their prices would never risk a "low end" finish.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Joe, no offense, but what did you retire from doing again?


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

Education: Electrical Engineering
Work: Electronic Component Manufacturing


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## Charlie5791 (Feb 21, 2012)

Poly isn't magic. It's just another varnish. I don't understand why folks talk about it as something special. I'm not sayin' it's garbage. Just sayin' it's just another varnish. Varnishes have different types of resins. Poly is just one. It has a place in your arsenal. Just….. not EVERY place. 

I saw it referred to once as "polyeverything"


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

ok, I don't know much about electrical components, if I had a problem, I'd say hey joe, what can you tell me about the color coding on this resistor? Or something like that, and I'd defer to your wisdom. But I do wood working all day long, six days a week, Almost everything I do is what could be called finsh carpentry or artisan carpentry. A large portion of my time is spent finishing wood. Right now, the humidity gauge outside says I have 70% humidity, and 85 degrees. This is mostly because it has been raining all day, and the sun is just now coming out, in the next hour or so, the temperature will get up to 95 degrees and the humidity will be at 100%. With Poly, there aren't any readily available retarding agents that can be added, sure you can thin poly, but in 90+ degrees it really won't make much of a difference. Now when that poly dries, with all the humidity trapped under it, it's going to blush, and the water will most likely also keep the oil from bonding to the wood, which means it will flake away. You see they design these products in a lab, room temperature, with no relative humidity, and that's how they are meant to be used. With the professional grade lacquer I use, I can both thin and retard the lacquer so that the humidity will escape, there will be no orange peel, and well no blushing either…. That's why I don't go to poly first…

Now you can read your articles that are sponsored by the manufacturer and go, hey this is the best product out there, or you could understand my experiences differ vastly. That's also the respect for the pros kind of thing I was touching on. You think I'm wrong? fine, do what I did when I had a real problem with 2 different cans of poly on the same project, call the manufacturer and talk to them. You might be surprised what you find out. And like I said, they won't tell you how to thin the poly, because it is ILLEGAL to do in states like California, because of the VOCs.


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## BJODay (Jan 29, 2013)

TCC

Good advice. Why does everybody hate Minwax? I've used it and I think it holds up well.

BJ


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

BJ,

I used to, but they just tend to not be consistant is all.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

TCC - just because you believe something doesn't make it true, and because you had trouble doesn't put a black mark on the product for everyone else. I don't know why you had the trouble you did, but I'll bet that the humidity was not the root cause of the problem.

The literature is quite clear that poly has a number of advantages over lacquer including durability and water resistance. By the same token lacquer has some advantages of poly. However, I not here to run down other finishes, I am trying to show that poly has and can be used as a quality finish, and in my original comment I said it was MY go-to finish which is not to say everyone should use it. I also showed in a follow on comment that at least one other world class woodworking business uses it.

BTW, your comment about electronic components manufacturing does not add anything to your argument. If you would take the time to analyze any component you would find that there are many combinations of various materials including plastics that are very similar to some aspects polyurethane. I'd say my experience in this area qualifies me to be in a position to understand and make knowledgeable decisions about the science of coatings in general which includes finishing wood.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

Good advice. Why does everybody hate Minwax? I've used it and I think it holds up well.

BJ

I used to like them but it separates to quickly and can get way to runny, I like general finishes and even some of the Rustoleum stuff is good and they're thicker so less running and coats more even for me.


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Eh Joe, I explained what happened with the finish… I'm sorry you don't have the experience necessary to understand why it happened, but then that's what I was trying to politely tell you in the first place. You want respect? Give respect, don't want it, don't give it. Sorry to be so coarse, but I think I was amply patient with you.

For a table like that though, I'd probably go with Thos. Moser's finishing techniques… Oh and most of the major woodworking companies use either lacquer or conversion varnish, not poly.


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## ajosephg (Aug 25, 2008)

Stupid is as stupid does


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

Exactly Joe, exactly….


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## TCCcabinetmaker (Dec 14, 2011)

You know I rarely get a long enough amount of time to myself to come on here, usually I look through the unanswered topics, scan for people needing advice, but this next month, I will be building a set of kitchen cabinets for one customer, a bunch of trim work for another, as well as building some custom bar stools for a third customer. Needless to say I will be busy doing alot of woodworking, and finishing. I normally wouldn't go here, I'd let it go, but Joe, let's compare posted projects shall we? Or wait no, let's not I think you need to spend less time on the web and more in the shop, then come back and talk about it.


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## UpstateNYdude (Dec 20, 2012)

TCC now you're just sounding more and more like an arrogant prick..please for the love of god bury this thread or delete this.

This kind of blatant "elitism" isn't needed and certainly doesn't make you look good or make anyone take you seriously when you act like a 4 year old when someone disagrees then bringing up the fact that he has/may have "less experience" is just ridiculous…grow up my 1 year old has better manners, what the hell is wrong with people nowadays…


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## lesage (Jan 1, 2013)

I am really new to this…. but I the I KISS rule. It applies to lots more in life than our woodworking interests. So on with KISS. When I was growing up, seems to me many pieces of furniture were sanded to satin smooth finish and simply varnished. What is the method for applying multiple coats of varnish to attain that deep looking finish?


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