# Full blind hand cut dovetails, why?



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I just received this advice in my inbox: its time to try full blind dovetails. Why? If I hand cut dovetails I want to be able to see and admire them! What do you say?


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## Dal300 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hmmmm, elegant joint but I've never seen one in campaign furniture. Most of what I've found is rabbeted, although it might actually have hidden DT's, I don't normally get to take it apart.


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

im with you bob, if im going to hand cut them, i want to see them, i cant imagine doing all that work to not see them, nope, there going to be seen…


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

Although I agree 110%, I guess there are times when it just doesn't fit the style. Remember the DT is one of the strongest joints you can make, so there was a day when it was more about function then presentation.


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## HillbillyShooter (Feb 15, 2012)

I agree with Don W-function over presentation in a time before biscuits and dominos.


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## 12strings (Nov 15, 2011)

Yep, It's a good joint because it (1) has the strength of dovetails (stronger than biscuits), and (2) is hidden. I chest made this way would last hundreds of years if done well.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I used full blind dovetails in a recent project (blog here) but they were a little different than these. I understood that the intent was to have the structural strength of a dovetail without any end grain showing to telegraph through a veneered surface.
The way I did them, they appear to be a mitered corner rather than a lap joint. Mine, however gave the illusion away when you looked at the ends (top and bottom) of the joint. 
Patrick Edwards corrected me in a comment telling me that the last pin on each end should be mitered to complete the illusion of a mitered joint. His blog is much better than mine.

You can find his blog on them here


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## stefang (Apr 9, 2009)

Good question Bob. My only reason would be just to cut them as a challenge. I have found through experience that glued miter joints are more than sufficient for a small box unless it is expected to get some very abusive handling. A miter cut is after all part side grain and part end grain, so it holds a lot better than many think. Blind or half blind dovetails were used in the past for furniture case goods which were heavy and needed a strong but invisible joint as visible joinery is not always a good attribute on some designs.


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## iminmyshop (Dec 9, 2012)

There are many ways to put joints together including miters. Most of the support given is more than adequate. Most fine furniture is over-engineered. So while it is true that there is terrific strength in hidden dovetails, an L shaped laminated spline would also give a ton of strength, be lots easier to make while still remaining hidden and be lots easier to do. In short, I agree that if I am going to all that trouble, I literally want something to show for it. A quiet self-pat on the back just wouldn't do it for me.


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## donbee (Feb 7, 2009)

Mike, pardon my ignorance, but I have always regarded the miter joint to be 100 percent end grain. 
Please educate me. How does the miter cut reveal any side grain?

Don


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## Smitty_Cabinetshop (Mar 26, 2011)

Paul, that link to Mr. Edwards does indeed show what I considered a full-blind dovetail, or "A secret mitered dovetail joint". What Mr. Schwarz is doing is a full-blind rabbeted dovetail per "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery"

Good stuff in this post!

Would I do one? If the furniture style required, yes.


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## bigblockyeti (Sep 9, 2013)

I would certainly want to see my work also if taking the time to hand cut.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

I could definitely see using these for carcase construction. I think difference between visible dovetails and blind dovetails is like the difference between a mortise and tenon and a through mortise and tenon. The blind one is not seen so could be made faster with les concern for the visual aspects.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Hmmmmmm! I did not know this discussion was happening. Just because you are getting notifications, doesn't mean you are getting all of them. I guess I'm with Mike, started getting this one today.

Bondo Gaposis, Not as much pride of accomplishment and bragging rights in M&T as there is with DT ;-) at least IMO.

Is there a way to do full blind; either secret mitered dovetail or full-blind rabbeted with a machine? Seems to me the only way to do them is by hand.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Well, I wouldn't do them unless I had a specific reason to do them
for structural or stylistic reasons. They look pretty easy to do 
compared to making clean through dovetails by hand. Realistically
one can make quite a mess of them if they don't show.

... I think with some ingenuity some power tool method could be 
devised to remove a lot of the waste in these sorts of joints,
but establishing the final geometry would probably involve 
hand work. I haven't thought about it more than a little as
most woodworking clients would never care or care to know.


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## bondogaposis (Dec 18, 2011)

Topamax, maybe my point wasn't clear. When you make a normal M&T joint none of it is visible and it is fairly easy, but when you make a through M&T joint you have to be much more careful because the tenon and mortise is visible on one side. My thinking is that a full blind DT joint maybe a lot easier than a half blind as none of it is visible. I will have to make a few to know for sure.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I wasn't thinking in terms of being able to leave the blind DT a little sloppy, but I guess it would still be sound without being perfect. Just being a wannabe WW here, when I get good tight DTs, I'm a happy camper ;-)


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## Grandpa (Jan 28, 2011)

I always felt like seeing dovetails was seeing quality.


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

I know I speak for the entire woodworking community when i say that if you don't use hand-cut full blind dovetails for all your hidden joints, you're a complete failure as a woodworker. You should give up on woodworking forever and give me all your tools.


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## woodbutcherbynight (Oct 21, 2011)

*Rob * You can have them when you take them from my cold dead hands…........ (Laughing)


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## intelligen (Dec 28, 2009)

Hey, I had to give it a try!


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I used them on my box because of tradition and to learn how.

About a power solution, that's really easy. You could simply knock out a set of through DTs on your router template and then laminate a thin (1/8") mitered layer over the top. If your goal was the strength of a dovetail with no end grain showing to telegraph through a veneer covering, the result would be perfect and would be for all purposes exactly like the one piece hand cut version.


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## jmartel (Jul 6, 2012)

As far as the strength goes, if a joint required strength, the best solution would be to use finger joints. Those are stronger than dovetails. In the past, a mechanical locking joint was needed due to the glue not being as good. Now that there's good modern glue, any of them work.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't mean to be argumentative but you are going to have to convince me that there is a modern glue that is better than hot hide glue, and it's not going to be an easy job. About the only thing that "modern" glues do better than animal protein glues is marketing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Rob, that is a good reason to not hide joints ;-))

Paul, never thought of that. How thick does veneer had to be to not telegraph end grain?


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Topamax - work out the movement of the wood species. Most
hardwoods move at about 1/4" per 12" of with so that's 
about 1/60" per 3/4" thick case part. The opposing part
in a dovetail is long grain and moves in length very little. So,
in a through dovetail situation you have though long grain
boards shrinking and swelling 1/60" in 3/4" stock. Since
a lot of veneers are 1/40" thick it is not hard to imagine
the movement telegraphing.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Loren, that is what I love about this site. You guys have the answers to questions I didn't know enough to ask!


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## CharlesA (Jun 24, 2013)

I've wondered about this a bit more generally. The most popular style of furniture on this site is craftsman/arts&crafts. I was in the middle of building three such pieces myself when I was diverted in the middle to another style by my family. While I like a lot of furniture in this style, my sense is that it's unparalleled popularity on LJ is because we woodworkers want to show off our skills, not necessarily because it is the most pleasing functionally and aesthetically.

Many on LJ may just love A&C, but as I think about it, I realize I'd be more likely to build in that style than to buy that style. If I were buying, I'd probably end up with a less heavy, less blocky style, but I like building it (or at least the thought of building it) because it shows skill off.

Heck, I just made an A&C style address sign for the house complete with chamfered square walnut plugs.

I"m not criticizing those who love A&C and build furniture in that style, just some self-reflective thoughts.


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

Topamax, this is another reason why thick, sawn veneer is so superior to the ultra thin sliced stuff we have to contend with today. Unfortunately it is getting scarce and is very expensive.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Paul. I guess sawn was before my time.

CharlesA, I think you hit the nail on the head. (pun intended, of course;-) )


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## shipwright (Sep 27, 2010)

You can still buy it. ...... but it's not easy and it's not cheap.
Check this out.


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## barringerfurniture (Sep 17, 2013)

Yeah, I would've just done a rabbet with some drywall screws.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I keep an eye on you guys that do inspiring work Paul, I remember when you went to get a ship load of that material and had to wait for it to dock in Vancouver before you could leave for AZ ;-)


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