# I don't get it. You must be giving your labor away or I am missing something



## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

I consider myself a weekend warrior, not an experienced woodworking professional. My dream is to retire in about 8 years and start an artistic woodworking business, wood inlay, sculptures, or maybe some combination, not really sure yet. Today I build whatever comes to mind and enjoy experimenting with new techniques. In the summer I go to as many art-shows as I can to see what woodworkers are building / selling and what kind of prices they sell for. I don't get it. You guys selling at the art shows must be giving your labor away.

From my day job I am very knowledgeable on lean manufacturing and efficiency techniques. I understand the principles of market pricing, and cost pricing (which are very different). I get that I am on a learning curve on most of the projects I build and may not have the most efficient tool set. But as I think through techniques to stream line production and the tools commercially available, based on a one man shop budget of course, I can't see how to get there. What am I missing?

I would be interested in seeing what types of jigs you use, specialty tools etc… to drive efficiency for your more artistic style projects. Please either post here or PM me

Thanks


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm certainly no expert on pricing things but I get the feeling that some woodworkers sell things to help pay for the cost of what they consider to be an expensive hobby; and it is expensive if you think about it. Then there are those who intend to make a business of it even though they still derive enjoyment from it.

I would also say that if you have been doing it for a good while, do very good work, have learned the ropes and your work and name gets recognized, you can demand a nice price for your work.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com


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## redSLED (Mar 21, 2013)

I figure that if 'creative carpenters' are happy with their vehicle, their own workshop space and tools being paid for, they are probably happy enough with $10-$15/hr for their labour (if that) overall - which always beats working for someone else, doing a desk job or spraying lacquer all day for weeks on end. Just pontificating here.


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## BBF (May 13, 2013)

When you go to arts shows there a lot of the low end sellers and their prices do reflect their work. However when you look at the nice pieces there most also reflect their worth in their price relative to the prices of the other vendors. That said the prices are still usually far below what it costs in time and materials to build. So if you are selling at flea markets, art shows, craft shows you are there to get your name out to the public, show them the quality of your work, and hand out business cards. It also pays to have a book / poster of your other work to show the variety of things that you can produce. Having a web site with its address on your business cards is also a big step in the right direction of running profits up.


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## JollyGreen67 (Nov 1, 2010)

Maybe I'm way off base here - but - Anyone who is in the market for a personal hand made work of art, such as what we woodworkers will make for then, be it flat or round, will not pay for our time and aggravation when producing such an item. Simply, because they can get "the same thing for less" at one of the big box furniture outlets. Little do they know they are getting decal mulched wood, that some 25 cent per hour third world worker is hacking out. Trying to get the public to understand that we put our heart and souls into what we create is a process most can't understand. Albeit, there are some who do understand, and are willing to pay, with a little dickering, to look into the hearts of we craftspeople.

Also, what BBF says.


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## StephenPrunier (Oct 3, 2012)

My experience with most type of shows is, Small/Local Arts & Crafts Fairs = Cheap Buyers! Unless it's a show that brings in high end artists and the buying world knows it in advance. It was a waste of my time. When I was selling my Fine Art Photography, I learned real fast and only attended high end shows in the end. On average my space cost $400 for the 3 days. Those type made me $$$ If I had a dollar every time someone asked me why my prices where so high because, "they" just printed everything on their printer at home? Well, you know the answer to that!  They would never read my bio that explained my process, and my use of analog cameras and a wet darkroom. It was always "my kid does beautiful photography with their cell phone" Maybe I should do that and I would sell more because it would be cheaper to produce! WTF

Trying to sell anything at the local $35 table rental shows can be easy. Trying to sell and make some $$ is hard. There loaded with sellers who don't care if they make any $. Some will even take a loss just so they can say they "sell at shows" 

Look into, then attend some of the medium to large shows. Look at what the buyers are carrying as they leave to get ideas on what may sell. It will cost you more for your space, but the event organizers will work hard to attract the right buyers. I know some will tell you it can be done on a smaller scale but, I think a lot will come down to where your located, and your markets average expendable income. I live in an area where there's still some $$. Just seeing all the new boats down at the marina shows me that! LOL

To make $$ you need to show your hard work to "Educated Buyers" It can be done. Your on the right track. Best of luck


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## EPJartisan (Nov 4, 2009)

I hate to bring about this in a philosophical debate, but "art" is not about making money. it just isn't, now if we are talking craft… well that is a skilled method that is used to achieve a utilitarian result.."excelling at the craft." Art is not about any particular thing.. it is upon itself an archetype.. a experience of the human existence. Art proliferates for many reasons and purposes, which money is only one and often the least important one. Art is about exploration of methods, it is about communication, it is about ego and power, it is about spiritual guidance, and yes it is about making money to still be able to make more art. But artists will starve for their passion. Art is something in the soul.. the blood, it is mind set, a perspective… it is obsession and that does not translate into value very easily.

So you can always retire and do art, but never expect that you will retire and use art to support yourself. I have spent my entire life pursuing the day where I can do art and have it support me. I am almost there.. there is no way someone off the street can just pick it up and actually "make money" Quality art comes from long experience and dedication to understand not just the craft, but the aesthetics, the history, the market of museums and patrons. Yet art and money are linked… even the most passionate artist wants the wealthiest client, because no limits on money means no limits to the creation. But the artist's ego is NOT one to underestimate… art always wins over money. Which is why art is such a huge commodity and investment for those with disposable cash. The two forces of money and passion spiral around each other, but never combining.

Design is the faster course to money making.. and design is about using ones skills and talents in craft and art to satisfy a need. Art does not need to be useful… design means useful… it has a purpose. Design things to match your market and make the most money you can.

I guess what I am trying to say.. the more you love what you do, the more you are concerned with what you do bringing the happiness and fulfillment into your life… money is not the top priority… even though we all need money. Often we are willing to take less money, to see someone smile in joy and willing to take less money just so people can see that we love to make beautiful things. In todays world only having money makes LOTS of money… and those of us who make things will never be rich… it just is that way. A few furniture makers I know have made money in the woodworking realm, but they have traded making things, with their own hand.. as they loved to do… into hiring others to make them and getting bigger more precise tools that making things faster.. money money.. all to make money.. and those same guys… guess what they do all day.. paper work, marketing, meeting with clients, phone work… they literally do not make anything but money.. and they are all rather sad about that. Well, just two bits from an artist, who is just finally starting to make it out there. Do what you love and the money will follow.. just not right away.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Go to higher end shows. They cost more money 
and are more stringently curated.

Make something the other guys cannot make.

Then you'll be in a position to get higher prices.

You still will probably need to specialize and 
develop custom solutions to improve your capacity.


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## Wazy (Apr 10, 2012)

Eric I couldn't agree with you more and you've stated the differences very clearly. At 72 years of age, I have finally started to really enjoy myself by making one of two choices (both are a positve result). 
1. I carve or create based on a personal / dreamed of item. Cost, labour and results are all mine to satisfy my artistic side. If a client sees it and wants to purchase it, the price is high end and not very negotiable because I made it for myself and it is one of a kind.

or
2. I satisfy a client request. In this instance, through discussion, it is the client's choice of materials, my statement of labour based on time (which I quickly learned to estimate properly) for making, finishing, delivery if required, etc.. They agree or disagree so start the job and be done but be sure to take pride in the end result because that client will talk to their friends.


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## 33706 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Don't forget one other important issue:* If your unique product takes off, there will be twenty others with your same exact product for sale at the next show, for a dollar less. Peddling your wares at a craft show…you might as well throw yourself to the wolves.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Your stuff won't get knocked off if it's designed
and built in such a way that the knock-off guys
will shake their heads and move on.

One box-maker graduated from a multi-router type
setup to a custom build CNC joint cutting machine
he uses to manufacture his fancy jewelry boxes
than emphasize sparkly contrasting woods, decorative
joinery and oil finishes.

Almost no knock-off guy looking for an easy buck 
will go to the effort of learning to do marquetry or real
steam bending work, so there are opportunities 
if you set up in a specialized way.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

"Funding my hobby" is all I do… as do many others. 
I make small $20 boxes and in order to sell them they have to be that cheap at the street fairs and festivals I attend. The most profitable item I sell is a small rubber band shooter that I sell for $5. (I can earn $20 and hour making those). I do make some more expensive items but those take a lot longer to sell. If I wanted to realy make money I would go get a job….ugh!


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

A very successful furniture-maker I've known for some years likes to tell people, "First get good, then get fast. And don't forget the fast!"

That's the approach I'm taking and it looks like there's some chance it'll start paying off within the next couple years. It takes a long time and many hours in the shop before you can acquire skills that the vendors at the craft shows cannot compete with.

Loren mentioned some things above such as steam-bending, marquetry and CNC. All of those skills require substantial investment in time and money and most woodworkers never bother to learn any of them. I've learned all three. Top notch design skills are also lacking for most furniture-makers. This is mostly because becoming a great designer won't happen without significant investment in time and energy. It's a skill that requires hundreds of hours of practice.

The real catch though, is that even if you're the best in the world, people won't pay you for your time unless you're also very fast. By fast, I don't mean rushing the job. I mean working so efficiently that you can do quality work in less than half the time a hobbyist would need. This is done by developing work methods and jigs that reduce complex operations into a series of precise, repeatable processes or in the case of hand tools, constant practice and drilling.

Unfortunately, I can't tell anyone what those jigs and methods are. They'll vary depending upon the type of work that's being done. If I were for example, to get into statue carving, I'd want to acquire zBrush, Rhino, CAM software, a 3d scanner, a 4-axis CNC and a good set of carving tools. The CNC and the software would allow me to rapidly rough out statues while I'm at the bench finishing them by hand. The 3d scanner would allow me to create CAD models from clay models and zBrush and Rhino would allow me to make them digitally. No craft show vendor could make the same statues with the same quality at the same price.


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## a1Jim (Aug 9, 2008)

Prices are low because just selling something is acceptable to many hobbyist that attend shows making a profit seems like it's not a high priority . I guess some of the sellers feel like they have gained acceptance if someone is willing to pay something for their product. This kind of approach to selling poisons the buyers pool into thinking all wood products should be low cost. I agree with Loren if you can make a desirable product the average guy can't crank out in their garage then you have a chance of making money as a professional wood worker.Even once you have come up with that magical product don't expect your exclusive sales of that product to last forever,think of Maloof rockers as an example,this product is time consuming to make and takes talent,but there are a lot of them on the market and that brings the price down,way down compared to Sam's $30k per unit price.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

Mass production of smaller items (mugs and boxes for me). I don't set up to make 1 or 2, I make 10-20 boxes at a time and right now have 9 dozen mugs underway. The big items I am there to actually market are each unique and nothing speeds that up. I charge for my time on those. I try to make it so as many people as possible leave money at my booth when they leave. The small items usually comfortably pay for my booth and I usually get enough orders on the big stuff to come out very well on the shows.


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## becikeja (Sep 12, 2010)

Lots of interesting input. I have looked at high end shows and low end shows and all shows in between. This weekend I attended the La Jolla Festival of the Arts just outside of San Diego. Booth space for the weekend ran $575 for 2 days, patrons paid a donation of $14 each to attend the art show. The La Jolla area is fairly wealthy so I would assume the correct patrons were in attendance. The show was spacious with 2 live stages playing for most of the day I was there. I would consider this a high end show. There was a gentlemen at the show who had some amazing marquetry. By my estimates, and admittedly I am an amateur but I have tried to factor that into my estimate I would say he was probably making $12-$15 per hour on a piece. Based on the craftsmanship he should been pulling in at least $30-35 per hour or more. Down the row there was guy selling wood wall hangings. These were in the shapes of sea creatures, whales, dolphins, turtles…. His prices were ridiculously low. Now he did use inexpensive wood and his finishing techniques seemed to be just slap on some varnish and move on, but even so he must have been in the $6-$8 per hour range for his labor.

If you guys don't know of techniques to speed the work, I'm not sure who would. I guess I will just have to keep working, get enough in the bank so I can live off my savings, and continue wood working for the enjoyment of the art.

Good luck to all of you who do sell at the shows, but raise your prices, I have seen your projects posted on this site, you deserve to make some money.


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

I hate to say it, but if you're a one trick pony who can
only make a jewelry box, when some wealthy lady
walks up, admires your boxes and asks if you can do her 
$100,000 kitchen remodel and a few other "things
around the house", you'll have to say no.

The money is in the big custom jobs. You can get
them doing the shows.

There are other routes: you can carve out some 
recognition for custom furniture designs and eventually
command what your time is worth. Juried shows
help build that rep, but the bread and butter requests
you'll get will tend to run to casework - so if you
want an income, knowing how to do casework 
and at least being semi set-up for it is a great idea.

This is why I built a very custom vertical panel saw http://lumberjocks.com/Loren/blog/32195 
and acquired a thermal edgebanding press and a 
construction drill… in order to move casework jobs 
through my shop quickly. I simply don't have the
space to leave a table saw set up for the kind of
cuts frameless (profitable) casework demands.

In terms of more creative work, I use an overarm 
router for template routing parts. Making templates
and work-holders can be a hassle, but it makes 
duplicates with more control and a lower reject-rate
than a router with a guide bearing copy bit.

I would feel like a dope cutting out lawn ornaments
and stuff like that on it, but truth-be-told it would
do a good job of making that sort of cutesy stuff.


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## REO (Sep 20, 2012)

I used to get 1.80 for a raw turning that took less than a minute to make from scratch. 3.50 for a 5" bowl customer supplied blanks. some jobs are in the 20.00 per hour range and others I have made over 80.00 per hour for over a week. some of the same jobs others are quoting ONE peice at 15-20 dollars I'll get at less than 2. Yeah I guess I am wall mart for turnings but I get the work and make some money.


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## Unknowncraftsman (Jun 23, 2013)

The last craftshow I signed up for in brought some of my favorite work.Small tables, dovetail boxs,turnings .lots of people stopped to look and many were inpressed.I sold only two items .
But the guy around the corner sold silly lawn signs all day long I watched people walk by.With signs ,have a nice day,git off the lawn.
I still like to compete at local fair woodworking competitions, I have learned not to make stuff that doesn't have a home for.I have no more room in my house .


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## MarkTheFiddler (May 29, 2012)

I don't know where the magic line is but there absolutely is one. I had this wonderful conversation with another batch of lumberjocks about a year ago. I see that Monte is saying something different now. He is set up for speed. Yet he reserves the items he is proud of for those who appreciate his finer wares. At least I hope that is the case. I hope he is pulling a fine price.

I agree with many of the reasons about undervaluing the work of an artist. I have lived through them even as of late. When we need cash, we undervalue our art. When we think we have someone on the hook, we don't want to hear no. If we charge past a certain amount, we might hear no. We go ahead and and lowball the price to guarantee the sale.

It's a bad habit. It's a hard one to break.

If we charge what our art is worth say for example $75 an hour, every hour, we'd end up selling side tables for $3000. Can you do that? Can you wait until that buyer springs for the table. Can you sit on it for 2 years? How long can you keep your faith that your work is worth it. It is art and it will take the right customer.

I know I sound a little out there. Trust me, I'm not. Build your best and quadruple the price you would normally think to sell at. If you are known for selling inexpensive items, make a second brand for yourself and forget about being out of 99% of the buyers pocketbooks.

My fondest wish for all of you is to achieve that level of recognition for what you are. You are artists.


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## mojapitt (Dec 31, 2011)

I have actually raised prices this summer. After reading the info from people like Loren, Markthefiddler and most recently Huff, I am trying to put more realistic prices on my products. I am trying to take a more realistic approach to figuring my costs. Also I am becoming much more comfortable with my skill level and I know I am turning out a better product now.


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## MyWayChipCarving (Apr 5, 2013)

They don't call them "labor pains" for nothing. (or is that something else)

I have been "touring" the woodworking scene for several years now and found that technology has really hurt the woodcraft world. People would rather pay for something cheap and inexpensive and that was spit out of a laser cutter than pay for real, handcrafted works of art.


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## reedwood (Jan 27, 2011)

interesting read.
It seems like a romantic dream come true - make beautiful pieces from exotic woods and be showered with work orders, praise and money. I guess for some, dreams do come true, for awhile.

We grew up poor with a "starving artist" mother who worked hard to keep us 5 kids clean and fed and still had time to suffer for her art. As a teen, I remember her paintings and helping her at numerous art shows.

I knew then she was giving her work away but, if you saw her talking to the potential buyers, if you saw her painting something new….well, it's hard to put a price on that.

An old carpenter I hired once said," I like to think my labor is worth 25.00 an hour, but sometimes, I have to work a little longer for free to get it."

I realized the limitations of full time woodworking a long time ago and started a high end remodeling business so I could make custom cabinetry for those jobs. In essence, I have several "companies", none of which will pay all the bills: Builder, small cabinet shop, furniture/ repairs, home inspector, landlord and investor.

You make the most from the big jobs (additions, kitchens and bathrooms) and sub contractors. Not so much from the cabinetry but, the fact that I offer the one stop custom work makes me more valuable and allows me to finance my love for woodworking.

At the end of the year, it all averages out. Sure better than the "starving artist" concept.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Our turning club had a demo guy who does fantastic turnings. He said he charged $1 a minute for his work.


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## huff (May 28, 2009)

*Pricing, Marketing and Selling*

It doesn't matter if you build country crafts, fine furniture, cabinetry or you're an artist.

You can be the best craftsman or artist at any of those, but if you don't have the know how or confidence to price your work to make a profit, or you don't have the know how or confidence to market yourself and your product to the right customer base and you don't have the confidence to sell yourself or your work, then you will never be able to make much from your woodworking.

You have to take control of all three if you want to survive in today's market place.

For me, once I learned those three elements of my business, woodworking became even a greater passion.

I'll be posting a series on Marketing and Selling in a blog in the next couple days, I hope some of you will follow along.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

Last year I opened a small one man wood shop. After being in business almost a year one thing I can say is it's a good thing I don't have to rely on this to make a living. So far this business has been a really good tax write-off, but it's not a money maker. One of the biggest problems with a one man show is the labor in actually selling stuff is more than the labor in making it. And right now there just isn't a lot of people buying and the ones that are buying are comparing your stuff with the Chinese made stuff they can buy at Target. (Not everybody is like that, but many are.) I have sold quite a few items that didn't even cover my costs, but in the end it was better than not selling anything at all.


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

When I was in the wood business, my main stay was remodeling. I did woodworking and built furniture and took it to shows, but the primary outcome was much higher end remodeling jobs that often bordered on just woodworking. Custom cabinets, custom built in etc.

One of the things I did at these shows was to try to understand what the other guys were doing. After talking with most of them I found they either had no clue how much money they were losing, or just didn't care. I'd see guys selling furniture for less than typical lumber would cost.

If your going to try and make money, you better know the business, and you better know your competition. If your main competition is guys who don't care if they actually make money, say nothing about a living, you're doomed.

The rest has been said, find a niche, find better shows, do something different. The problem I always had trying to make a living out of it, was it took a lot of the fun away. Now, its just an expensive hobby.


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## TheWoodenOyster (Feb 6, 2013)

I experienced this first hand today. I had a lady contact me about making a kitchen island with an "olive" colored wood frame and a slate top. It is supposed to be an imitation of a williams sonoma table that sells for $2500. So, I came up with a distressed solid white oak frame, with a lay in slate top. The number I came up with was $2200, and over half was materials (slate is expensive). From what she said, she was wanting to pay more like $700 or so. I told her that the slate alone cost more than that. I told her I could do it for $1000, but it wouldn't have a top. She said she would get back to me. I think what a lot of these people don't understand are materials and methods. Solid White Oak is way better than MDF, and slate is way better than plastic. Dovetails are better than butt joints. BUT, most people don't look deeper than 1/64th of an inch, so they don't know the difference.

I think finding the right crowd to sell to is the key


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

To make a living, you can't just try to sell quality. For whatever reasons, many customers seem to expect perfect quality regardless of the price they pay.

It's usually better to find some way to offer them something that cannot be had anywhere else. Just about everyone will toss away significant amounts of money on certain things. The job of the seller is to find out what pushes the "buy" button. If asked to price out a kitchen, design special lighting or storage or Blum hardware or something else to make the project stand apart from the Home Depot selection of products.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

On the Williams Sonoma table, people also don't understand the difference between custom made and something that comes out of a factory. The fact is you cannot make that imitation Williams-Sonoma table for cheaper than what Williams-Sonoma makes it for when you are only making one. They are making many of them at the same type so they are buying their lumber and materials way cheaper than you can get it for and doing them in volume has it's own obvious advantages. The only thing the small shop has on somebody like Williams-Sonoma is the ability to make custom items and lower overhead. If somebody wants a Williams-Sonoma like table, they should just go to Williams-Sonoma and buy it.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

JAAune, just using plywood and screws to make a cabinet versus particle board and staples, makes your project stand out from Home Depot. But again many people simply look at Home Depot's prices and wonder why you can't make a similar piece of junk for cheaper.


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## MT_Stringer (Jul 21, 2009)

I will never be able to make a living doing woodwork because I am too dang slow! :-( I am also retired. I spent my career in the refinery industry. Wages were good and so were the benefits.

These days, when I get tired, I stop and go rest up until I feel like I want to get after it again. Most of the stuff I make is custom made.

With that said, I am getting a little better and faster because I have upgraded a few tools, and upgraded my work bench with tracks for clamps to hold my work. And my skills are still improving. I have been doing some type of carpentry work (off and on) since the 70's but it has always been a little here and a little there.

I have been to a few craft shows but haven't been impressed. The last one had a guy selling stuff I thought should have been sold back in the 70's. Rustic made but kinda hokey looking to me. His custom cooler can't hold a candle to the one I make.

I haven't had to resort to craft show selling. Things I build, I post on my Facebook page. My wife and daughter have a lot of friends and co-workers and they share the page with their friends…and so on. So I get requests that range for "I want that" to "Can you make this for me?" (and they post a picture).

So without any actual outlay for advertising, I have enough requests to keep me more than busy, and pay for the upgrades to my tool inventory. 

On another note, I haven't been much of a cabinet builder in the past, but I am building some for my garage. I had to. I had run out of room and needed some organization. On several occasions, people have came by and asked if I build cabinets. So far, I have resisted. I don't think my finished product can compete with the big box stores…at least not yet.  Maybe some day.


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## msmith1199 (Oct 24, 2012)

Mike, most of the stuff I've sold in the last year has been just like you through Facebook. Even though I had an eBay store and I have a webpage, almost everything comes through Facebook and networking through friends of friends. And Facebook is free, unlike the other online selling sites.


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## Tennessee (Jul 8, 2011)

My guitar business has run at a loss for every year since I started. I did, however manage to get a rather nice shop out of the deal because I needed the tools to build the guitars.

That being said, I now am in a museum that takes 35% of my price. I get to put a number of pieces in their permanent display for sale, and do two shows a year. They have a newsletter that has a readership of about 600+, mostly the upper class of my area. That's about as good as it gets for me.

I don't plan on becoming rich from wood, never did. And Loren is dead on when he talks about casework, most of the artists in SE Tennessee have radiated in some way to casework. I have not…yet, but it is pressing in.

Huff is right about the marketing. I just today submitted a 250 word announcement of myself to the newsletter I referred to above, the museum asked me to. I have a Facebook page with about 215 followers, low but steady. Everything I build I post on there. My website takes anywhere from 40 to 80 hits a week - so-so. But all together, with me doing some articles in local yokel newletters, ad magazines and the such, people know who I am, and the work is fairly steady, but it won't come anywhere close to paying the bills, and I don't expect it to.

So I have a serious hobby, and I am OK with that, since I am not really into doing kitchens and bookcases, although I have been commissioned recently to do build-in bookcases with butcher block countertops, and just finished up large flower boxes for the front of a house. Boring, to be sure, spraying cedar stain on pressure treated wood flower boxes, but it keeps the insurance paid and a little money around. The guitars help, but guitar repairs are better, actually, better money and usually cash.

And that is the last thing. Discretionary income in this country is at an all time low. Remember that. So only the rich are not really affected. That's why I gave up on my antique shop displays and music store displays and bit the 35% with the museum, it brings in all the rich people, the museum handles the money so I don't need a credit card machine at my table, plus I get to show in an air-conditioned space, not under some damn tent in a field of a festival with people walking around with $20 in their pocket asking me would I sell that jewelry box for $5.00 an hour!


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## Loren (May 30, 2008)

Being a cabinetmaker isn't an awful thing if you can
handle the lifting. Some people really enjoy it,
even as post-retirement careers. Get a look at Jim Tolpin's 
books on the topic and think on it.


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## JAAune (Jan 22, 2012)

"JAAune, just using plywood and screws to make a cabinet versus particle board and staples, makes your project stand out from Home Depot."

It would be nice if that were true but from a non-woodworker's perspective, it's not the case. The addition of plywood and screws isn't going to have any impact upon the client's lifestyle or alter the appearance of the project. It's hard to convince a client that they should pay double for a kitchen so they can have plywood boxes with screws. I've actually had a client request melamine boxes for a commercial job even though I usually use plywood.

If a client can't see or feel it, they probably won't care about it. People would rather get cheap boxes then spend the saved cash on a nice granite or solid surface job (easy maintenance sells) I'd probably do the same myself if I were in their shoes.

One home-builder I know told me he'd like to hire me to do the kitchens of all his houses but it's not practical since all he needs are nice doors and counter tops to sell the homes. The boxes are as cheap as he can get since nobody has any interest in them. Because they are screwed into place and can't move they last as long as the doors, drawers and face frame.

Many woodworkers are poor salesmen because their sales pitches are geared towards woodworkers. Very few people do woodworking these days and they really don't care about the things we care about. They just want to know how our products can impact their lives in a positive way that justifies the price.


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## Puzzleman (May 4, 2010)

JAAune, your last paragraph is soooo true. Our customers want to know how it can impact their lives. If it is positive, they will buy. Think about this for a minute, when you go to a wood shop, wood show or the internet looking for a new tool, bit, blade or gadget, don't you do the same thing?? You are looking for how this item will impact your life in the shop. Do you care how they apply the carbide to each tip? No, we care about how the angle of the carbide teeth will make the cut better.

I started out making a living selling at art & craft shows. Have cut back on the shows as I sell to many retailers now. I let them do the leg work while I do the woodworking. Now I make my living by selling to them and just a few shows. Making a living can be done. You have to a specific niche to work in that others won't do. And yes I do have competitors but you have to know why you are better and let your customers know why they are spending more money with me than with someone else.


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## Finn (May 26, 2010)

This thread got me to thinking so I tracked the hours spent on making 14 of my $20 boxes and found I spent 16 hours on the batch. $3 per box in materials.( I usually make 20+ at a time.) I am averaging just over an hour apiece. So that is only $17. Around here $9 per hour is an average wage and I only sell locally. I can make more per hour making toys and they sell well, but I grew tired of that. I have gradually increased the prices of my boxes to $20 and sales in dollars is about the same as it was when I sold them for $14 two years ago. I am usually the only wood worker at the sales I go to and I am always the only one selling boxes.


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