# Shed/Workshop ADVICE???



## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I have to leave my perfect set up shop and am relocating to a place with no existing shop space. I am in Illinois by the way.

I am seriously thinking of building a STORAGE SHED "LEGAL NAME" workshop. I have watched many many videos about building sheds/workshops.

I would of course be building it myself. I will have a large fence in back yard where to build this. Back yard is grass.

I would like it to be around 16×32. Common walls and a 45* roof. either a large barn type door or a manual rollup and a common door a few window and of course a sub panel electric power.

Seems since its a SHED there are numerous ways to put a foundation under the critter. Seems some are happy with taking up the turf then laying out a few inches of 3/4 inch gravel then simply placing the treated floor joists right on top of it. I think something up of the ground/gravel is better but do not wish to pour any footings or posts.

ANY SUGGESTIONS from folks that have done this.

Some of my questions are Foundation? City CODE!!!!! Power.

I would like to keep it under 5 grand!

SOMETHING LIKE THIS!


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

First thing I would do is check local building codes. You don't want to get something built then find out you are out of some sort of code compliance. And make sure you pull the necessary permits.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

> First thing I would do is check local building codes. You don t want to get something built then find out you are out of some sort of code compliance. And make sure you pull the necessary permits.
> 
> - TheDane


UGH the government!


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

ALSO any good ideas on alternatives to drywall?


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## TaySC (Jun 27, 2017)

I'm considering building a small 10×12 shed for storing my lawn tractor and lawn tools and recently researched this for Aiken, SC. For a 10×12 I am considering putting it on beams instead of pouring a concrete slab. Our city code requires the shed be at least 10 feet off the property line, but I'm in the county and they only require 5 feet off the property line.

For a building the size you are talking about I would go with a concrete slab, however. IMO that is too big to do it any other way. Just my 2 cents though.


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## splintergroup (Jan 20, 2015)

> ALSO any good ideas on alternatives to drywall?
> 
> - richardchaos


Plywood. It is pricey, but it allows you to mount shelves and hang things anywhere. Typically you will want to re-arrange your shed several times before you are satisfied with the layout.

Codes/government BS considered, another option is those precast concrete piers set on top of compacted substrate.

$5k is tight for a shed that size, maybe put that money into a quality shell with good ventilation/lighting/insulation and add on the extras as funds allow.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I think any poured Concrete anything is a bit over done for a shed/workshop. A lot of videos I see are a gravel area under the entire thing with precast pads then the treated on top of that. I also thing any POURED forms would invite the City to call it a PERMANENT STRUCTURE!

I may need to shrink my size. the space I am in now is 20×20 and thats big enough UGH! this is killing me!


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## tmasondarnell (Jul 2, 2013)

I can't help you on your local codes, except to say that in most places once you get over 180 sq ft, you are no longer a "shed", but a building with all of the code and permit requirements. Do you have an HOA?

I know this sounds strange, but I can say that $5K (even doing all of the work yourself) is a very optimistic target for the cost. Are you going to insulate the building? Finish the inside? 16×32 puts you right at 500 sq ft. With electrical, you are targeting a material costs of $10/sq ft. My back of the envelope, quick calculation has you at ~$1200 just for roof decking and T1-11 siding without any framing materials, roofing materials, windows, doors, electrical, insulation, etc.

To give you a perspective, I built my 16×24 shop in fall of 2010 and spent 8-10K on materials when it was all said and done. (not counting the concrete for the slab).


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## TaySC (Jun 27, 2017)

> I think any poured Concrete anything is a bit over done for a shed/workshop. A lot of videos I see are a gravel area under the entire thing with precast pads then the treated on top of that. I also thing any POURED forms would invite the City to call it a PERMANENT STRUCTURE!
> 
> I may need to shrink my size. the space I am in now is 20×20 and thats big enough UGH! this is killing me!
> 
> - richardchaos


Not sure about where you are at, but here, anything 200 Sq ft or more requires a permit.

To do it right you are likely going to have to get some permits….


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

I have a smaller building I call my garden shed that is 12 X 16. It was built off site and set in place at my house. The foundation is pre-formed concrete pillars and beams. The structure is about 8 inches above ground level. I got around the "permanent structure" requirement by declaring it a "temporary" structure, even though it has been there for 12 years. I can't remember what the cost was but I have considerable framing experience and I couldn't build it for the same price I bought it. The inside remains unfinished but I could insulate and seal it in a day's time if there were a need.

As for drywall alternatives, I recommend 7/16" exterior Masonite siding. It is stronger than drywall and is easier to install and finish. You can hang stuff on the wall with screws without hunting for studs.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

As for alternatives to dry wall. I was thinking of 4×8 sheets of pegboard or other such covered with the same material one would use as the outside padding of what they use for upholstery covered with a fabric like burlap and I could screw not the wall and be able to remove it and move. I think that would make for a very good sound insulator.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

has anyone worked with INSULATED PANELS?


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## jimintx (Jan 23, 2014)

In the past, I have used T-111 siding for shop walls, and I like it a lot.

Put screws and nails anywhere, and I like the look. If you wanted lighter color to increase light reflection, it is easy enough to roll on latex paint, or of course you could spray it.

.


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

Around here anything larger than 12×16 requires a building permit, inspection, must adhere to building codes etc.

Where my mom lives the deeds say no sheds are permitted, but that hasn't stopped some from trying.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

> Around here anything larger than 12×16 requires a building permit, inspection, must adhere to building codes etc.
> 
> Where my mom lives the deeds say no sheds are permitted, but that hasn t stopped some from trying.
> 
> - patcollins


I think its a very sad commentary on American life that it seems our government is all of ours number one obstacle. to everything we do in life!

I have a client who's dream and goal was to build a FREE community center where anyone could eat 3 hot squares a day and other admendaties. Said he was called to do it from GOD

Guess who ******************** canned the entire thing….. The Government!


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## AlaskaGuy (Jan 29, 2012)

> ALSO any good ideas on alternatives to drywall?
> 
> - richardchaos


For a 16×32 keeping it at 5000 or under you're going to have to skip the drywall.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

> ALSO any good ideas on alternatives to drywall?
> 
> - richardchaos
> For a 16×32 keeping it at 5000 or under you re going to have to skip the drywall.
> ...


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

I built this at the house we just sold. It's a 16×30 I built it with a plain Jane shed roof. Doors were 8×8 I built it pole barn style with a. Concrete floor. I think I had about $6k in it but almost two of that was for concrete and having someone else pour it (to big for just me) I also put a 8×8 section off the side just for my wife to store totes


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## ArtMann (Mar 1, 2016)

The Masonite stuff I recommended is used in exactly the same way as T1-11 but the surface is smooth and primed with a light grey paint. In one section of my shop, it looked good enough with the primer that I never bothered to put on a top coat. It is more expensive than T1-11 but the cost is mitigated to the extent that it really doesn't need paint.



> In the past, I have used T-111 siding for shop walls, and I like it a lot.
> 
> Put screws and nails anywhere, and I like the look. If you wanted lighter color to increase light reflection, it is easy enough to roll on latex paint, or of course you could spray it.
> 
> ...


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## patcollins (Jul 22, 2010)

> Around here anything larger than 12×16 requires a building permit, inspection, must adhere to building codes etc.
> 
> Where my mom lives the deeds say no sheds are permitted, but that hasn t stopped some from trying.
> 
> ...


It all comes about because you have people that will buy a house in a nice gated community and then put up something that looks more in place in the slums of Mexico City. Many of these rules exist for a reason. As far as my moms neighborhood it was all owned by the people that live right behind her and they didn't want them in their neighborhood, its not like it was a surprise, it was spelled out clearly in the deeds that people signed when they purchased the property.


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## Fresch (Feb 21, 2013)

My area anything over 8×10 must be permit and probably a variance.
Mine is 12×16 did all the work myself 6 yrs. ago cost ~$3200. But It's 16"oc, sits on cinderblocks and I had 60% of the electrical in scrap. Not finished inside, t1-11 sides. I did get quotes for a 2 car garage in spring 5 windows roll door, man door, slab, 3 course block, built w/16" oc, metal roof, $20-30,000. unfinished, no elec., pvc sided, gutters. N.Y..


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

You want to spend $5000 and get ~500 sq feet of stand alone workshop space? 
Suggest you need to look at big picture. That is $10 per sqft.

Am not even sure if finished wall workshop space is possible if you do all the work yourself, simply because of total material costs? Expect you need careful planning and/or some drastic compromises to met this cost goal? Maybe even some out of box thinking?

Examples - 
Concrete pad: 4-6 in thick concrete pad averages $1.5-$2/sqft just for concrete delivered to site? Figure $3-5/sqft with labor, if contracted out. That is 1/3 to 1/2 your budget!

Gravel base: Cost of soil reclamation, site grading, 3-4 inches of gravel, plus leveling will cost up to $1.5 sqft, unless you own the heavy equipment, or want to do it all by hand.

Electrical: Running a 100A subpanel to an out building can cost over $1000 depending on distances involved. Material cost for DIY is $250+, and I hope you like digging trenches.

Roof: 550 sqft of flat membrane roof will cost ~$1000 to build on top of walls. While much better looking, a pitched gable roof is 2-2.5x cost of flat roof. Not sure your budget can afford your design pictured above?

If you want more cost examples, there are many web sites with construction cost calculators on WWW (such as www.homewyse.com)

FWIW
- Should set some realistic guidelines. Having someone build unfinished (industrial or garage) single story space (floor, frame walls, & roof only) costs $30-50/sqft, or more depending on plumbing/electrical rough in costs. Materials occupy about 35-50% of the costs. So expect 500 sqft to have at LEAST $10-12 sqft in material costs alone.

- Occasionally you can find a local builder willing to work on this kind of minimum cost construction if local economy is slow and they need work. While use of general contractor to manage your build typically adds another $10-$50 sq/ft, would still suggest you find a local house builder that specializes in remodeling, or only builds a couple of houses a year and get a formal quote or two. Even if you do not use them, the time spent will teach you of the areas regarding local building code that you need worry about when you DIY.

- Most state/local building codes require anything over 100-200 sqft requires building permit. Dealing with local code will force you to make more expensive choices if you build the structure on site. BUT use of a temporary structure will remove building construction requirements, and only require building permits/inspections for power/water/gas installation. One low cost route if local zoning allows temporary structures; consider buying a used mobile home or some surplus construction trailers and setting them up as shop. Have seen surplus overflow class rooms (double wide trailer), and construction trailers sold for less than $5k, and them you need less than $1K to run utilities to them.

- Idea to use foam/OSB building panels is an option. They are much quicker than conventional frame construction at making structures. Challenge is that materials costs for this construction are higher than standard stick construction, and not an advantage for DIY "free" labor. Would also caution you two issues. Panels are heavy, and most times a crane is used to move them into place, which is more cost to assemble the structure. There is also a higher labor cost installing electrical wiring, plus it is harder to modify the internal wiring like you can with frame construction. Major changes after building completion, require use of surface conduit to met building codes.

Best Luck.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

> I will have no Neiborghood community to worry about just the Government
> 
> Around here anything larger than 12×16 requires a building permit, inspection, must adhere to building codes etc.
> 
> ...


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

Pole Barn, pour 1/4 of the floor…about 4 yards worth….


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

Well I did some measuring and I think downsizing is in order Maybe more like 16×20. I will have access to a small one car garage on the property where I can make say a finishing area and some stationary tools I rarely use.

I guess I will just have to go to the city folks and get al the required red tape. I can do it all my self but don't want to pour a pad.

As far as I know you can do anything you wish juts being a DIYer BUT you DO have to pass inspection. I hope the inspectors are in a good mood.

Its just gunna kill me to wait and not make much saw bust…....

As far as PANELS I had no idea they were way expensive I was figuring they would be way cheeper than stick frame building! KRIST! its just some cheap OSB and say 6 inches of Styrofoam and glue

! Whats the big costs there?

I have seen where some of these panels manufactures will make them smaller so one or 2 men can handle them.

I also want to me make a creative statement if thats allowed.

I love the craftsman style Maybe like this











> You want to spend $5000 and get ~500 sq feet of stand alone workshop space?
> Suggest you need to look at big picture. That is $10 per sqft.
> 
> Am not even sure if finished wall workshop space is possible if you do all the work yourself, simply because of total material costs? Expect you need careful planning and/or some drastic compromises to met this cost goal? Maybe even some out of box thinking?
> ...


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I will be posting my latest and probably last PROJECT tomorrow! for awhile!


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## BenDupre (Jan 23, 2017)

Look into garage kits from Menards. 5k can get you materials. You need a poured foundation. And you need to pull permits. Have a talk with the building inspector in your village. Usually they will give you free advice.

You can do a shed with a pier foundation but you are going to put some heavy tools in there. I wouldnt trust it.

My shed project


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

Well my tools are stander stationary tools I would say the heaviest is the Table saw maybe 250 pounds…

I will look into the Menardes KITS I love Menardes



> Look into garage kits from Menards. 5k can get you materials. You need a poured foundation. And you need to pull permits. Have a talk with the building inspector in your village. Usually they will give you free advice.
> 
> You can do a shed with a pier foundation but you are going to put some heavy tools in there. I wouldnt trust it.
> 
> ...


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

Good idea about the Menardes garage kits. I like them BUT it looked to good to be true until I read that it said Windows doors options sold separately.

Good to know thought



> Look into garage kits from Menards. 5k can get you materials. You need a poured foundation. And you need to pull permits. Have a talk with the building inspector in your village. Usually they will give you free advice.
> 
> You can do a shed with a pier foundation but you are going to put some heavy tools in there. I wouldnt trust it.
> 
> ...


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I am curious Almost everyone else's shed they built is at the most 12 feet wide? Why is that? I would want at least 16, 18?


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## BenDupre (Jan 23, 2017)

It's the sheet goods. Can be any size but 8 an 4 are magic numbers. Optimized.


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## Bluenote38 (May 3, 2017)

I


> I have to leave my perfect set up shop and am relocating to a place with no existing shop space. I am in Illinois by the way.
> 
> .... taking up the turf then laying out a few inches of 3/4 inch gravel then simply placing the treated floor joists right on top of it.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you are losing a great shop and congratulation on your new adventure!!

If you are going with gravel under a wood floor (like a deck) you will need some kind of vapor barrier. Moisture coming up through the floor will ruin your tools. I built a 10×10 over gravel with a floor and it was great for garden tools but sucked for Woodworking - lesson learned (I'm in southern Michigan about on line with Chicago).

If you are running power and/or water-sewer you will have to pull a permit especially if you plan on a subpanel run. T-111 in and out with insulation only if you plan on heating/cooling.

If you are heating be sure you vent the roof correctly or you will end up with ice dams, water, and leaks. Again bad for the tools.

Don't run dust collection under the floor - it's a pain to fix and you can't reconfigure your shop and the temperature difference between the warm air in the tube and the outside causes condensation, the dust sticks to the pipe and ruins the efficiency and has to be cleaned - under the shed!

Oh, ceiling height - shoot for 9'+ BenDupre mentioned 8×4 as a magic number and an 8 foot ceiling is a pain to negotiate when you are wrestling a full size plywood panel.

I'm sure that I must have done other things wrong over the years.


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Id do OSB or plywood on the inside walls. Drywall looks better but isn't as friendly when you are hanging stuff up plus it gets holes easy. I originally did just a gravel floor. Over time my workbench and tool boxes settled and sunk into it. Wood is better but I think concrete is best since you can then park a car or tractor of other heavy stuff in it if you need to work on them. In my neck of the woods concrete is $100 a yard. I ordered 10 yards for my 16×30 plus the 8×8 off the side and the 3ft extra on the front of the building and still had a little left over.
Id also do LED lights and hang metal siding as a ceiling on the inside of the building if I were doing it over. Id also recommend if you work with rough cut lumber that you figure on a outside lumber storage are on the outside of the building so it can air dry. Something like a 4foot over hang on the back would probably work


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## Bluenote38 (May 3, 2017)

> ... do LED lights and hang metal siding as a ceiling on the inside of the building …
> 
> - JCamp


JCamp totally agree with LEDs, I just swapped and what a difference. And the add'l drying area too. But why metal ceiling? I'll actually be doing the same as richardchaos in 2 years.


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

YOU know I was thinking 9 foot inside walls. I like a tall inside to. ALSO while I know a vapor barrier was needed I hadn't thought of it under the gravel.

My shop now is 20×20 and when I started I thought it was all the room in the world… Now I have to move stuff around. BUT I cant make a palace in this new places back yard. While I was thinking, like 16×32. I think thats not gunna happen. maybe more like 16×20 with 9 foot ceilings, gravel under all with poured footings with a block on top every 8 feet with three girders with the long run then joists 16 inches OC.

2×4 walls 16 OC 2×8 ceiling rafters 45° roof. INSULATION all around including between the floor joists.

I was thinking we all have a ton of old scrap pieces of wood laying around!!!!! IS there anything wrong with using a joiner or router with a finger joint bit the splice smaller pieces of demential lumber such as 2×4 and 2×6 and 8s into longer ones. Maybe not for deflection/side stresses such as ceiling/floor joists but for compression stressed such as wall studs???



> I
> 
> I have to leave my perfect set up shop and am relocating to a place with no existing shop space. I am in Illinois by the way.
> 
> ...


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Bluenote38 - Id do a metal ceiling cause when Im doing something 98% of the time it is just me working with me myself and I (Mayb im hard to get along with or stink or something lol) so to me it would be easier to put up, I could pic whatever color I wanted (yay for not having to paint), better light reflection and I have a somewhat local amish place that will cut them to whatever length I need. So in a 16×20 I could have a full length 20ft long piece if I wanted. Plus it wont mold and its hard to knock a hole in it


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

Was thinking the exact same thing…. I have put up metal roofs before and hey are pretty forgiving. I don't think you need SHEETING under them either….. BUT can you put anything under it to keep the noise down during heavy rain hail?



> Bluenote38 - Id do a metal ceiling cause when Im doing something 98% of the time it is just me working with me myself and I (Mayb im hard to get along with or stink or something lol) so to me it would be easier to put up, I could pic whatever color I wanted (yay for not having to paint), better light reflection and I have a somewhat local amish place that will cut them to whatever length I need. So in a 16×20 I could have a full length 20ft long piece if I wanted. Plus it wont mold and its hard to knock a hole in it
> 
> - JCamp


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## Bluenote38 (May 3, 2017)

> ... easier to put up, I could pic whatever color I wanted (yay for not having to paint), better light reflection and I have a somewhat local amish place that will cut them to whatever length I need….
> - JCamp


JCamp - I LIKE it!! Have to consider that whenever/wherever I land two years from now. And it's most likely your sunny disposition that keeps the riff-raff at bay ;-)


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## JCamp (Nov 22, 2016)

Richardchaos - I know a contractor that puts half inch foam insulation under the roofing and on the inside of the walls when he builds stuff. I've never tried it but im sure it would dull the sound although he does it for actual heat retention in the winter. Personally I like that sound tho  makes me want to sleep

Yeah ill assume its this Bluenote38 lol -"it's most likely your sunny disposition that keeps the riff-raff at bay ;-)"


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## Sparks500 (Jun 30, 2017)

16×32 is way beyond storage shed and into garage classification.
How secluded is your backyard?
And, I know its fun to complain about codes and government interference, but, do you really want that idiot neighbor wiring his addition 3' from your house?


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## richardchaos (May 12, 2017)

I am going to have to look into all the CODES and regs when I get there. I was also thinking of RENTING some kind of space and have some fellers out there but not one call.

YES I know its beyond SHED and now into garage area. There is a very small garage on the site and I would tear that down and build a bigger one with a concrete pad where it is BUT that one area will not allow a bigger structure!. Its was also built very poorly. No Collar beams/boards so the roof is sinking and bowing out the walls as well and not rebar was used in the crette so the walls are sinking while there is a high area in the center with huge cracks radiating to the four corners..

HEY I KNOW what about a very "unfortunate FIRE" for that building! Hey it could happen!

ALSO as it pertains to laws codes a regs, its good to a point but today not one of you can do even one human behavior/activity say in a weeks time that is NOT, Influenced, regulated, licensed, taxes or out right out lawed by the government!
Baby that's not freedom, liberty, or safety! Thats cold pressed tyranny!

Its a good thing I am a wood worker because the SOAP BOX I stand on gets lots of hard, heavy use!



> 16×32 is way beyond storage shed and into garage classification.
> How secluded is your backyard?
> And, I know its fun to complain about codes and government interference, but, do you really want that idiot neighbor wiring his addition 3 from your house?
> 
> - Sparks500


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