# Another firearm topic here out of the shop



## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The testimonies are precisely the reason I use these sights; deterrent. Hopefully, the deterrent will prevent having to use the weapon in self defense.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/LasersInAction/tabid/652/Default.aspx


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## IrreverentJack (Aug 13, 2010)

Topa, Pictures being worth a thousand words, looking down at a laser spot on your shirt should de-escalate any situation involving sane people. Besides, if an intruder is too dumb to be deterred, the cats will chase him out of the house. -Jack


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

One can only hope they are that smart and not on drugs or something. I have had lowlife coming to steal tools come back for a 2nd look at a 12 gauge shotgun ;-(( Fortunately, we have annexed into a city and the cops come the same year they are called. Unfortunately, that is not a wise crack. King County Police can't be cut during budget cuts because they don't have any out here to cut ;-(


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## bluekingfisher (Mar 30, 2010)

Seems you are having the same problem with cops being cut out there Bob as we are having here.


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## Knothead62 (Apr 17, 2010)

Topamaxsurvivor, thanks for sharing. I forwarded the link to the president of the local gun club, of which I am a member.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

You are welcome. I hope more people see the potential of deterrent value and preventing the use deadly force necessity.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If you are facing that situation, don't turn it on ;-)) ;-))


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## Jim Jakosh (Nov 24, 2009)

Ya think that will work stuck under a Winchester. Or will the racking of shell into the chamber have the same effect?

Like you said Topomax, you hope they are smart enough and sober enough to understand and not keep on coming at you where you have to defend your self.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That is why defensive positions should have a bright light in front of, beside you or overhead. Or, you can carry a flashlight that will shine 100yds at night. Blowing away unidentified supposed threats is the highway to prison as well as civil court.


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## Dark_Lightning (Nov 20, 2009)

The laser spot is a good tactic. Another is to use the off hand (assuming a pistol in the other) to shine a bright light in the adversary's eyes. Sweep it into and out of his eyes. He's blind until his eyes readjust to the darkness. He's yours to take down, if need be.

As far as racking a firearm, yes that works. Back in the gas "shortage" in the late '70, one of my younger brothers spotted a guy siphoning gas from his car. Racked his 12-Gauge. Well, the guy took off running, and my bro had to beat feet downstairs and outside to get the 5/8" garden hose out of the tank before all his gas ran down the alley! heh heh


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## rtb (Mar 26, 2008)

I think that there good arguments on both sides of this argument. In this state (KY) it is legal to use deadly force to protect property which allows wider latitude than "fear for my life". This is also a state where the politics of not providing necessary services as gotten many office holders reelected under the guise of 'keeping taxes down'. As a result the county I live in has a sheriff and 1/2 of a state trooper. (he covers 2 counties) My only hope for law enforcement may well come out of the end of a gun.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

rtb, that is pretty much the way it was here before we annexed into the city. Unfortunately, the bulk of the jury pool has police protection or were not affected enough to know they didn't or still don't ;-((

People used to tell me they didn't have those kinds of problems in their neighborhoods. I would tell them I know they don't talk much to their neighbors. The response was usually no, they didn't talk to them much. How did I know that. Because the problem is every where. If I saw them later, they usually told me it was worse than they realized after they ask around the neighborhood.


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## Maverick44spec (Aug 7, 2011)

cr1, as the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## RockyTopScott (Nov 16, 2008)

Average Police response time is about 10 minutes.

9mm travels at approximately 1200 ft per second.

Which gives you best chance for survival?

Nice link Topa. I located adealer near me and will see them this weekend.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

They obviouisly did not include King County WA PD in that average. I have many suspicious activity calls the crime prevention officer said they wanted called in that have not received a response in 15 years. Many of those incidents required citizen preventive activities prevent criminal acts.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

The very worst position that we can all be in is if and when the government decides to take up all firearms (except the criminals firearms - they won't turn them over). No doubt many an honest man will become a criminal because they won't turn there's in either. The right to keep and bear arms is the bedrock of all of our other rights. There is no doubt to me that criminals are deterred by firearms and they would much prefer to commit a crime against a victim that did not possess one. That sight is interesting, *Topa*. Thanks.


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## TheDane (May 15, 2008)

Topa-Interesting … thanks for the link.

When I lived in Arizona, we had something that was often referred to as the 'shot your neighbor law'. It was very much like the Castle Doctrine. I can sure see the deterrent value of the laser.

We have kind of a bizarre thing going on here in Wisconsin. Our legislature recently approved a concealed carry law, and the libs are going nuts. Honest to God, with all of the FUD being spread about, you would think we were on the brink of having gunfights break out on Main street. I mean, 48 other states have managed to deal with concealed carry (Wisconsin and Illinois were the last holdouts), so I don't see what all of the angst is about. I will have a permit (new law takes effect November 1, 2011), and may outfit my 9mm with one of these lasers … sounds like a heck of good idea.

-Gerry


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't like lasers but I understand how others do. My dislike began too long ago when most were three-point mounted. I guess I've never really given the rod/grip mounted versions a fair shake. For a tactical room-clearing weapon, I like a bright light instead, especially one with an easily engaged strobe option. This is the internet, so I can claim to bench press 2000 pounds but I really am a tactical firearms instructor, or at least I still carry the licensure. Facing a laser is one thing; facing a bright strobe is entirely disorienting. In terms of ammo, I follow a simple rule: I carry what my local police carry out of the home and I use Glazers in the home. That's the easiest thing to defend from the witness box.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

If the Libs would give in on their pro crime positions, we wouldn't need to carry. I have had 2 friends killed in robberies; one in the 70s was found dead in a ditch a few days after he disappeared. Last seen at a tavern late at night. The other in the 90s. A handicapped guy in a wheel chair about 10 PM gong to the grocery store.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Many people have a confused sense that I carry because I like to. I'd love not to have to.


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## steviep (Feb 25, 2011)

Topa, we have had a couple of crimes on elderly around Kansas City lately. I am rarely surprised at the depth humanity can sink to, but beating or raping a 90 year old is outside of my realm of imagination.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^in my line of work (forensic pathologist), I could tell you stories that would make that sound average, StevieP. Very sad, but very true. There are bad people out there. That is one of the few things I know for sure.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

WE have home invasions and crimes against elderly widows in our news too. That is beyond my imagination. There was a gang operating at Southcenter Mall in Tukwila a few years ago who would hide under cars, cut peoples achilles tendon and rob them when they went down. The court system is little more than a training center for aspiring career criminals. I worked on the 3 strikes you're out initiative. It took us 3 tries to get it on the ballot, but when it was on, it passed by a wide margin. Now we need to get prosecutors who will use it.


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## ClayandNancy (Feb 22, 2010)

Love this.


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## helluvawreck (Jul 21, 2010)

*Clay and Nancy*, I must say that I love it too.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

That lawn is spectacular, too (sigh). Leave it to a silly gun nut to own a quality edger


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Finally, a good politician ;-))

Vermont State Rep. Fred Maslack has read the Second Amendment to
the U.S. Constitution, as well as Vermont 's own Constitution very
carefully, and his strict interpretation of these documents is popping
some eyeballs in New England and elsewhere.

Maslack recently proposed a bill to register "non-gun-owners" and
require them to pay a $500 fee to the state. Thus Vermont would
become the first state to require a permit for the luxury of going about
unarmed and assess a fee of $500 for the privilege of not owning a gun.

Maslack read the "militia" phrase of the Second Amendment as not only
the right of the individual citizen to bear arms, but as a clear mandate
to do so. He believes that universal gun ownership was advocated by the
Framers of the Constitution as an antidote to a "monopoly of force" by
the government as well as criminals. Vermont 's constitution states
explicitly that "the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of
themselves and the State" and those persons who are "conscientiously
scrupulous of bearing arms" shall be required to "pay such equivalent.."

Clearly, says Maslack, Vermonters have a constitutional obligation to
arm themselves, so that they are capable of responding to "any situation
that may arise."

Under the bill, adults who choose not to own a firearm would be required
to register their name, address, Social Security Number, and driver's
license number with the state. "There is a legitimate government
interest in knowing who is not prepared to defend the state should they
be asked to do so," Maslack says.

Vermont already boasts a high rate of gun ownership along with the
least restrictive laws of any state … it's currently the only state 
that allows a citizen to carry a concealed firearm without a permit. 
This combination of plenty of guns and few laws regulating them has
resulted in a crime rate that is the third lowest in the nation.

" America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the
system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

This makes sense! There is no reason why gun owners should have to pay
taxes to support police protection for people not wanting to own guns.
Let them contribute their fair share and pay their own way.
Sounds reasonable to me! Non-gun owners require more police to protect
them and this fee should go to paying for their defense!


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

The laser is an interesting thing, just wouldn't work on my SKS, no sight seems to. But if the sound of the slider slamming home isn't enough to deter the situation I'll be fine with using the chambered round.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I thought they made mounts and lasers for about everything out there. As popular as SKS are, I would think some one would do it.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

there are many available, of questionable quality. But they're out there!

http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Tri-Rail-System-Green-Rifles/dp/B002UL127M

http://www.combathunting.com/SKS_RIFLE-Universal_Tactical_Laser_Sight_Flashlight_Combo.html

http://www.rifletech.net/value2.htm


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

A friend told me about a hologram pistol sight at Cabala's for under $100. Leupold is about $300. He said they were good enough a friend of his was suing one for match shooting. After asking every question about their return policy I could think of and being assured it was returnable for 30 days for any reason, I bought one.

After shooting it a little, I concluded it was not holding the adjustment. Definitely nothing but a cheap Chinese copy. I can't remember the name for sure, but that Ncstar seemed familiar. I wouldn't buy any of those unless they were returnable for full refund. The prices are too low for a quality sight. I think you called those right Al ;-)


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

I've got the EoTech on my Sig5.56
http://www.opticsplanet.net/eotech-law-enforcement-holo-sight-556-a65-with-sidebutton-operation-555.html










I actually bought it from opticsplanet (above) and I've been happy with both the holo and the retailer. It's expensive, though. If I had it to do over again, I'd save up and buy what my friend had on his:

http://www.opticsplanet.net/eotech-mpo-ii-exps3-4-holosight-with-g23-3x-magnifier.html










I just realized that you're talking about a handgun sight. I'm not real quick


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Topa SAID: "If the Libs would give in on their pro crime positions, we wouldn't need to carry."

Well this Lib is armed, been through the academy, but does NOT like it when the crime comes FROM the local police force in the guise of "protection."

San Antonio Policeman shoots and kills the robbery victim.

San Antonio Police Department Spokesman fails to yield right of way while entering expressway via an on-ramp and strikes another car killing the other driver. In an act of taking care of their own, the police charge the dead driver.

San Antonio Police Chief apologizes to GLBT community for conduct of officer
QSanAntonio.com, February 27, 2010. Police Chief William McManus has apologized to the GLBT community for the incident involving the alleged rape of a transgender person by SAPD Officer Craig Nash.

After a reverse-sting operation devised by the FBI to target various members of the San Antonio Police Department willing to commit crimes for money.

BTW, I like the laser but feel that a Mag Light held to the side at arms length may be a safer alternative when the need to use deadly force arises. Like others have pointed out, no need to pinpoint your own position.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

^Oh man, Mike. That's a hard read. Guy thinks he's survived the beating and….that's a sad one. I'd be interested to know what kind of round was in the service weapon. If it's what it should be, it sounds like bad aim. Really a sad story.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Doesn't matter Al, rifle or pistol, quality brands are the quality brands and the prices are very similar.

I thought Seattle had the worst run dept. They let the WTO Riots get totally out of hand, then spray commuters coming out of office buildings with mace. After that fiasco, they stood by watching a guy being beaten to death.

Tacoma cop killed a 61 yo guy on a small motorcycle yesterday going to a call. I don't know if the lights and sirens were on or not. I see them going too fast without all the time. When I was in the fire dept as a volunteer, I always made sure I watched out or those who might not see us coming. The others guys on board were telling me to go faster and run stop signs!! ;-(( You out run the siren at about 40 mph.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Mike, The Libs around here all start talking about childhood problems where ever there is a criminal punishment issue raised. If they would do something when the kids started, they might straighten out. There are no consequences until they are beyond help and turned into career criminals.


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## jeepturner (Oct 3, 2010)

Topo, It's not the "Libs" it's the attorneys who bring up the childhood issues.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/theblotter/2016232007tubamankillerpleads_guilty.html
I hear you about the response times before being incorporated into Auburn. They had one county car for an area about the size of Rhode Island. Just to give readers back east an idea of how large our county is. I would still like to see out county split into at least three.


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## HorizontalMike (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah Topa, you should have heard all the stories I listened to from parents defending THEIR child. THEIR child wouldn't lie, it HAD to be THAT teacher, the one with 1, 2, or 3 college degrees. And to think I THOUGHT the field of Education was going to be safer/saner than law enforcement. Should never have tried either, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

And we get more than our share of PD-Speeding:
Former San Antonio Police Officer David Seaton, on trial for manslaughter and aggravated assault, could face up to life in prison if jurors find he recklessly caused a wreck while speeding to a low-priority call.

We also have school Police shooting students:
San Antonio Cop Executes Eighth Grader.


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## Bertha (Jan 10, 2011)

Doesn't matter Al, rifle or pistol, quality brands are the quality brands and the prices are very similar.-Topa

Agreed on that. If you do a lot of match stuff, Topa, your best bet is to save up for the good stuff. Our metalworking friend, August, is big on optics and he's got some nice stuff. No one's heard from in a while. I hope all is well with him.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

I am one of the few who go to town meetings with elected reps. When they were talking about crime, there are always a bunch that start talking about bad childhoods causing it. I say BS, anyone with an ounce of brains can figure out it is wrong to break into houses, rob mini marts and banks; it isn't rocket science to figure that out ;-)

Yeah, I do a lot of match shooitng. Unertl, Leupold, B&L,& Lyman Target Spots are my top scopes. Some of the good sights on BP rifles cost as much or more than a good scope. Today wasn't my day. I had to start by dealing with a flat tire which made me late. The wind was gusting; just couldn't hold my 36x for 100 yd offhand 22 shooting ;-(( May use a 20x tomorrow ;-))


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## derosa (Aug 21, 2010)

I've looked into all the different options for my rifle, none stay where they are supposed to and remain accurate. I just did my once a year target practice for hunting season. At 65 yards, the furthest I can see in the woods around here, I put 5 in the red, 6 in the first black circle, and the rest in an area the size of a dessert plate on a 50 yard target. Close enough to drop a deer and not need a scope or laser. Lasers also aren't legal in NY for hunting and the rifle doubles for that purpose.

I'll be picking up a deer slayer shotgun in a couple weeks as a rifle isn't hunting legal in the county I'm now living in, I'll still use it opening day in the Catskills.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

That isn't allowed in WA. They need to try to revise that behaviour before the 10th offense. By then, they know there is no downside to crime, just easy money.


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