# Time for proper toys in a tight space



## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

I didn't see an introduction area so I guess I'll jump right in to what I'm doing and why I'm here. I have a 12×20 outbuilding with 8' walls I'm going to formalize into a tiny shop. I'm looking for advice on how to use that small of space for all the standard wood working tools. I'm pretty sure I'm going with a SawStop pro 36". Next I have to decide if I can pull off an 8" jointer. I have a Dewalt planer on mobile base, floor standing drill press, and router table that is mobile. The old POS job site table saw is going to the dump. Also need room for a dust collection system (probably HF) and also a 14" bandsaw in the future.

So any thoughts on how folks have put this sort of thing together in such a small space?


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## MPython (Nov 30, 2018)

Two suggestions:

1. If you buy the SawStop, buy their router table extension - or another brand - and get rid of your free standing router table.

2. If you're going to buy an 8" jointer, don't. Buy a good quality jointer/planer combination instead.

Both of these changes will save you lots of room in your small space. My basement shop is 13' X 27'. I don't have room for a stand alone jointer and planer or a stand alone router table. I had an Inca 570 J/P that I used and loved for 25 years. Sold it and bought a Hammer A3-31 12" J/P and have been very happy. I've dressed and processes a lot of rough lumber in my small space with those e machines. I've also been very happy with my Bench Dog cast iron router table extension on my SawStop. It has done everything I have asked of it and it saves a ton of space. When you start crowding a lot of machines in a small space, the thing you lose is assembly space. If you build small stuff like boxes, that may not be a problem, but if you're building furniture, it is a BIG problem. If you can combine machine functions and not lose performance, you're ahead of the game.
My $.02.


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## LittleShaver (Sep 14, 2016)

Casters.


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

Definitely casters.

My router table is setup with INCRA's LS super system so I'm not too keen to swap that out for a different router system.

I've looked a little at the router jointer combos. They seem a bit pricey and have short beds. Probably that won't be a big issue for most of what I do but when I need it, it certainly would be nice to have. I'm wide open to suggestions here as I've only used separate units.

Good thought on thinking about assembly space. I have a habit of forgetting about that whenever I start projects. Going plan is to incorporate that as the table saws outfeed table.


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## HackFabrication (Mar 11, 2019)

Ditto on casters.

I'm working in my basement, and I'm in the process of putting everything on mobile bases/casters. Even my 'old and improved' C'man 10" table saw with Vega Pro40 fence is on a 'customized' Shop Fox mobile base:




























With outfeed/assembly table folded:










With six swivel casters it will turn on a dime, and a lot easier than dragging it off the wall into the middle of the small area where it can be used.


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## Bluenote38 (May 3, 2017)

Grizzly has a great shop layout tool - you will need Flash. Take a look here And Fine Woodworking has planner and and article on a 10×20 shop here with some of John Yurko's thought behind the layout. And here is "THE" small shop from Matthew Teague. He squeezes in a jointer. in









This is the FWW #160 shop Matt created
FFW #160

Casters are key and in this design I'd probably not have a fixed outfeed table.


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

I like the collapsing outfeed table. I'll play with that grizzly layout tool. That should be perfect.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Ring around the shop. All machines along the wall on casters, except lathe which is anchored to concrete floor. Upper cabinets on three walls, lighting added under cabinets. Dust collection duct about 3' high around shop, short piece of flex hose to each machine for rolling out if needed. TS in center of room. I have 16×20 space. Walls are solid tools, but it works for me. Plan on changing it around a few times. And lots of LED shop lights on the ceiling!


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

Sounds good. Right now I'm digging the trench to get power while trying to find a good sparky. Not going to buy anything until I know what kind of power I'll have available.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

100 amp 240 if available, 125 is better. 30 circuts minimum. Put it in conduit, add a couple of extra pipes for tv, internet, and possibly 3 way switches. Don't know where you are, but the IBEW union hall can give you names of small contractors that are trained and will give you a safe, quality job. Electricity is not for weekend handymen. For safety, put lights on circuts separate from power so a tripped breaker won't leave you in the dark.


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## MadMark (Jun 3, 2014)

You can run a one man shop off a 20a 220v and a 15a 110v line. You'll not be running more thsn one or two tools and the dust collector at once.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Maybe to start, but if doing a new install, go big. Why do it twice? I run a 3 hp shaper or planer, a 2 hp DC, and the 5 HP compressor might kick on. Plus there is also heat and possibly AC, plus lighting. I am a 1 person hobby shop, and one 20 amp 240 v circuit would not cut it. Not everyone has the machines to start, but in the future…..?


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## BalsaWood (Mar 25, 2015)

Casters on every machine will make all the difference. You can have a tiny space and still have quite a few large machines.


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## WoodenDreams (Aug 23, 2018)

My 4'x4' workbench also doubles as a outfeed table for the table saw. My workbench has two under the bench cabinet vises on one side of the bench and one under the bench cabinet vise on the other side. Most of my shop equipment is benchtop equipment, this allows for wood storage shelves under all the benches. Graph paper does help for sketching out you shop equipment, benches, and tool storage placement.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Ring around the shop. All machines along the wall on casters, except lathe which is anchored to concrete floor. Upper cabinets on three walls, lighting added under cabinets. Dust collection duct about 3 high around shop, short piece of flex hose to each machine for rolling out if needed. TS in center of room. I have 16×20 space. Walls are solid tools, but it works for me. Plan on changing it around a few times. And lots of LED shop lights on the ceiling!
> 
> - ibewjon





> Ring around the shop. All machines along the wall on casters, except lathe which is anchored to concrete floor. Upper cabinets on three walls, lighting added under cabinets. Dust collection duct about 3 high around shop, short piece of flex hose to each machine for rolling out if needed. TS in center of room. I have 16×20 space. Walls are solid tools, but it works for me. Plan on changing it around a few times. And lots of LED shop lights on the ceiling!
> 
> - ibewjon


Dust collection in ceiling so you don't loose 4-6" of wall space.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

I have a 12" Jet jointer/planet and love it. Small footprint and a beast.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Different designs for everyone. Ducts on ceiling would 1) be longer runs 2) block my lighting and upper cabinets. I also have lighting under my upper cabinets to focus more light on tools. We all throw out what works for us and Beeral gets to pick what will work for him. I would have liked these ideas to pick through when I started building my space! We can all learn from others experiences.


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Different designs for everyone. Ducts on ceiling would 1) be longer runs 2) block my lighting and upper cabinets. I also have lighting under my upper cabinets to focus more light on tools. We all throw out what works for us and Beeral gets to pick what will work for him. I would have liked these ideas to pick through when I started building my space! We can all learn from others experiences.
> 
> - ibewjon


Don't run the mains in the ceiling along the wall where they will block the cabinets. The mains are 2 foot or so off of the walls. Then a 45 horizontal to the wall then 90 down the wall. This keeps the mains off of the wall and gives a short horizontal run to avoid piles in the drops. Other than the riser and the drops the runs are no longer. Great design.


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Looks like plenty of space. I would do a miter saw station with storage against the back 12' wall. Table saw in the middle but moved so the right side is close to the wall, with a work bench against the wall between the miter station and table saw (puts the saw in the middle of the room), then along the other wall you have a joiner/planner combo, bandsaw and drill press, with lumber storage on the wall past the table saw.


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## OleGrump (Jun 16, 2017)

Yep, Definitely casters and fold down outfeed table. Also check out some of the YouTube videos making portable rolling "tower" type cyclone dust collectors using a shop vac (or similar) and a plastic bucket. These have a nice small footprint, but offer a lot of dust collection without constantly clogging up your filter


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

Lots of good thoughts folks. Finally have the electrician coming tonight to sort out what I can do power wise.

For the jointer/planer combos, they seem to have short infeed/outfeed tables. Are people finding that limiting?


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## RichBolduc (Jan 30, 2018)

Your shops only a little smaller than mine. I'm in a 16×17 that my water heater takes up space in. It is doable, but casters will be required. My shop has the following

2HP HF Dust collector with 55 Gallon drum seperator 
20" Jet floor drill press
Laguna 1836 (replaced the Nova Comet ii in the images) (Has cabinets under if for lathe stuff)
14" Powermatic bandsaw (On wheels)
14" Delta bandsaw (On wheels) (might end up selling)
ProMax 1632 Drum Sander (On wheels)
20 gallon compressor (Sits under the miter station) (On wheels)
12" DeWalt sliding miter saw
Router table with a Triton TRA001 (Sits under the miter station, on wheels)
Dewalt 735 Planer (Sits under the miter station, on wheels)
Delta 6" long bed jointer (On wheels)
Grizzly G0690 Tablesaw (Middle of the shop) (On wheels)
4'x4' Outfeed/assembly table. (Middle of the shop) (Has a ton of storage and a face vise)
Rikon 1/2 HP Grinder w/ Wolverine jigs on a Husky tool chest that doubles as more storage for drill stuff and misc stuff
Ridgid oscillating belt/spindle sander (sits in the outfeed/assembly table)
Wen disc/belt sander (sits in the outfeed/assembly table)

I also have a 6' tool chest under the miter station, this is what determined the height of my miter station

I also lose a lot of wall space as 2 sides of my shop are sliding glass doors.

I plan on building a charging/storage rack above the miter station. This will free up some of my storage in the tool chests as they're going to be relocated to those.

Stuff to stabilize and cast (Pressure pot, vacuum chamber, toaster over) on the miter station

Lastly, there's a bench top mortiser tucked away under the miter station I'm trying to sell
And a couple of Festool items in systainers.

9 gallon Shop Vac with a 20 gallon drum separator with dust deputy.

Lumber Rack

2 trash barrels (one sites under the miter saw for dust)


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## MikeDilday (Feb 21, 2017)

> Lots of good thoughts folks. Finally have the electrician coming tonight to sort out what I can do power wise.
> 
> For the jointer/planer combos, they seem to have short infeed/outfeed tables. Are people finding that limiting?
> 
> - Beeralchemist


I have the Jet JJP-12 combo and it works great. I build furniture so accuracy is very important. Have done 6 foot rough oak and black walnut and it is spot on. Great machine.


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## RichBolduc (Jan 30, 2018)

That's good to know. I've thought about buying to 10" and using it strictly as a joint.

Rich



> I have the Jet JJP-12 combo and it works great. I build furniture so accuracy is very important. Have done 6 foot rough oak and black walnut and it is spot on. Great machine.
> 
> - MikeDilday


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

Eyeballing the grizzly G0634Z for a planer jointer combo. Thoughts?

Waiting on electrician quote. Limited by code to 6 circuits. So one a 30 and 220. Then a couple 20 amp 220. And the rest for 20 amp 110.


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## Beeralchemist (Mar 10, 2019)

Sorry for back to back posting. Any tried and true DIY cyclone dust collectors built up from something like the HF dust collector system? I did a google search and saw so many different things that my lazy kicked in and I'd rather just ask the experience folk for what has been a solid system.


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## HackFabrication (Mar 11, 2019)

> Any tried and true DIY cyclone dust collectors built up from something like the HF dust collector system?
> - Beeralchemist


Lots of good ideas out there on modding the HF DC. Some are very compact and mobile, some are more permanent installations. Here's what I've done: https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/303647










I extended the HF base a few inches less than 24" x 24". Added a couple of swivel casters to that end to maintain balance. It's mobile, but is located in a semi-permanent location pending decisions to hard plumb it with additional ductwork, and run a dedicated 20a circuit to it. I don't have a lot of ceiling height in the basement, which nixed the permanent mounting ideas (without some additional work to the filter mounting). Plus I'm still unsure of where I want to locate the unit.

But be advised, that for the money spent, you might be better off getting a complete cyclone setup from Grizzly, Oneida, or others. Which are even more compact, and not a lot more investment than modding the HF system.


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## HackFabrication (Mar 11, 2019)

Here's my area (and yes, the cat with some complaining, allows me to share it):










Oh, and get one of these (or fabricate your own):










Amazing the amount of fine dust that this removes from the air.


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

Where are you that the local code is limiting circuts? Is it because of space available in your panel? I would run a large feed to a sub panel in your new shop and have a 20 circuit panel with main there. Strange code, never dealt with that limit. More circuts does not allow for more power draw, that is limited by the main. They would not like my shop, with a 30 circuit panel and a 20 circuit panel controlled by a contractor for safety shutdown and lockout of tools. Yes, most would say overkill, but I like it.


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## BlueRidgeDog (Jan 2, 2019)

Indeed the number of circuits limit is odd. Typically you can put in a daughter panel of nearly any size as it is limited to the feed breaker.


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

> Casters.
> 
> - LittleShaver


And 3" or larger will get them over those wood chips without the chips acting as wheel chocks.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

> Waiting on electrician quote. Limited by code to 6 circuits. So one a 30 and 220. Then a couple 20 amp 220. And the rest for 20 amp 110.
> 
> - Beeralchemist


A limit on circuits? Yes, this is real.

BUT - The code limit of 6 circuits is usually only for panel without a main disconnect. Reason being in case of emergency, turning off more than 6 circuits takes too long. 
If you install a panel with main disconnect inside, you can add as many circuits as the sub-panel will hold. 
Challenge is higher cost, as you end up with feed breaker in main panel, and more expensive disconnect breaker panel for sub-panel. Some electricians are funny about using normal 60-80A sub-panel feed breaker in main panel, and then having a larger 125A main in sub-panel as disconnect; but code allows for this configuration. 
To be safe, use permanent marker to show the sub-panel with feed wire AWG, and breaker limit in main panel. Avoids confusion when you are gone, and some else tries to expand the sub-panel.
Cheers!


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## ibewjon (Oct 2, 2010)

There is definitely a limit of 6 service disconnects in a building, which does not apply to this situation. Many inspectors do not know or understand the code. If there is a 6 breaker limit in a panel without a main, why are these panels, up to at least 42 circuits, manufactured? Please tell me where the 6 circuit limit is in the NEC? So, put in a main breaker. No big expense, and a little safer.


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## CaptainKlutz (Apr 23, 2014)

Sorry if I misspoke?

Forget where to find 6 breaker rule without a disconnect for sub-panel codes, don't have time to search. Somewhere in 225? Roughly 225.21 through 225.36?

Basically, can put a row of 42 slot panels next to each other, and since main is within same proximity to shut of the panel(s), no additional disconnect is required. 
BUT If the sub panel is not in same 'location', AND has more than 6 circuits; need a local disconnect.

The challenge with this rule can often be interpretation of 'same' location? 
IMHO - Code defines same location as same structure. So technically NEC states only need disconnect if sub-panel is in different structure/building.  
Have 'lost' this (6 circuit limit) code argument with county permitting folks on sub-panels twice in last 10 years here in AZ. Some entities do not consider panel mounted on outside wall of a structure, as being IN same structure as sub-panel on wall inside of garage in that same building. :-(

As you state, it really doesn't matter besides cost, plus it is safer to have single disconnect for sub-panel.

YMMV



> There is definitely a limit of 6 service disconnects in a building, which does not apply to this situation. Many inspectors do not know or understand the code. If there is a 6 breaker limit in a panel without a main, why are these panels, up to at least 42 circuits, manufactured? Please tell me where the 6 circuit limit is in the NEC? So, put in a main breaker. No big expense, and a little safer.
> 
> - ibewjon


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