# I am so Glad I will be Dead When....



## End_Grain (Oct 23, 2009)

my great nation is in the hands of today's youth. Excuse me, but after tonight that is exactly how I feel. I work part time as a math tutor. After four weeks of tutoring a group of sixth graders, we had our assessment test this evening.

Given four picture choices, the question asked which object would be closest to three feet? My one student selected 'banana.'

Given the populations of Europe and South America, which of the two has a greater population: Selected answer: Asia???

Marsha runs 300 yards every day. How many feet does she run? Selected answer: 600

I could go on but you catch the drift. Given I did not go over how many feet are in a yard but for Pete's sake what about the other two responses? I can't even remember when I learned there were 3' in a yard. It was one of those givens in my life. WTF are these parents doing aside from getting cross eyed downing a couple Colt 45s when they should be at the kitchen table with their children supervising homework. I just don't get it anymore.

Granted we will always need people to do menial undesirable jobs but I think we are preparing far to many of them for the jobs that will be available in the future.


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## KellyS (Jul 20, 2009)

I feel your pain! I just turned 39 this past week. I know my parents and their parents thought the same of my generation. If you want to watch a movie about it, it's called Idiocracy. Hilarious, but scarily possible.

I hate drive up windows, malls where you have to deal with some younger people…The interaction leaves you well…Lacking, wanting more, something better? Drives me crazy. I keep saying it and everyone looks at me like I'm crazy, but POOR Service and a general lack of consideration and caring is a F%%&**& Epidemic!

If I were a mean person, I would be thinking, "Boy, we're really going to have a generation we can take advantage of when they get older.. Hey!, wait a minute….I think that's what they're doing to my generation!!!

Keep up the fight, for every couple of youths that don't get it, there's one that does and really will appreciate the help you've given them later on
KS


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

I hear you guys, but we are not all bad you know. This is stereotyping and I take offence to this. In my 18 years on this earth I have been let into convince stores with only two of my piers so the staff can supervise us like we are criminals on a supervised visit with our children. I have been stalked by floor walkers in places like Wal-Mart. I have been treated like I know nothing at the hardware store that I work at because of my age, but if you take a minute you may be surprised that I know a fair bit and I am always willing to learn more, for none of us know it all. I have plans to have my own cabinetmaking shop in the next five to ten years once I finish up college, it may be tough at first but nothing great comes easy. I guess all I am trying to say is comments like the above, that today's youth hear all too often make it harder for us and they are very discouraging, but I am not going to let them get me down. Before putting all your eggs in one basket just remember that most eggs are good, but if you look hard enough you will find a rotten one from time to time. Maybe there are too many "rotten eggs" today but we have to find a way to fix that, hopefully we can find a way together.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

Here is a different opinion.

Go spend a little time in a HIGH SCHOOL Career and Technical School. You will find teenagers willing and ready to learn trades from automotive specialty through welding technology. Teenagers running CNC machines, plasma welders, building houses, rebuilding engines and on and on. There is no shortage of kids wanting to learn and mastering skills our parents never dreamed of.

Don't be too quick to lump all these kids into the basket of poor experiences you have mentioned.

Lew


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## LocalMac (Jan 28, 2009)

The never-ending argument of "today's youth". It's important to keep in mind the generations that came before the kids of today. Yeah kids are learning about sex earlier, always using cell-phones, and so on. However, you have to keep in mind that all these negative traits of youth exist because of the generation before them. It's adults that make laws, allow what's on television, and determine what kids can do. It gets worse every generation because adults allow it to. And yes even the "greatest generation" is guilty of this.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I guess your not that good of a tutor LOL…

I am just kidding, but I think you are taking it a bit hard. Lumping everyone into a stereotype isn't the way to go about it either.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

No single generation is any smarter than any other. It's a truth that there are always plenty of people who are either dumb or lazy. It's best not to get too worked up about it because there are plenty of smart, hardworking, responsible kids out there.

One need look no further than the large number of kids who signed up to serve in the armed forces to see that this is true.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The kids that know there a 4 feet in a yard don't need a tutor )


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## lilredweldingrod (Nov 23, 2009)

Todays parents pass their responsibility on to the "teachers". When my youngest son was a honors student in the tenth grade, we had two--definitly not teachers--teaching honors math and history. They were so unquailfied, I took him out and finished home schooling him. When he went to college, he was always on the Dean's list.
These schools are our own fault as parents. And until parents take the responsibility to control their kids so there is a learning enviroment, and kick the unions out and in mass demand qualified instructors, this is what you get. 
Sorry for the rant. But after spending 40 years raising kids, this is my greatest peeve. Thank you for listening, I apologize. I'm going back out in my cold shop and cool off. God bless, Rand


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

I think..were I to protest about being unfairly judged on the Internet because of my youth…I might use a spell checker just to make it more effective.

End Grain, I assume the children you were tutoring were having difficulties with math since they required a tutor in the first place. I'm going to jump to a conclusion and suggest that their parents are not mathmatically gifted either. What's the matter…you've never seen a 3 foot banana?


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Lew You still have high school level tech schools?!? Wow. They've closed pretty much all the tech programs around here. One administrator said "Our students are all college material."


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## ND2ELK (Jan 25, 2008)

I taught industrial arts for five years and left teaching because of the pay. I enjoyed teaching and felt I was a good teacher. It always amazed me that we are willing to pay vets a decent salary to take care of our pets but not pay teachers a decent salary to educate our kids. Don't want to start a a big debate here but that is why I left teaching. I feel there are a lot of good kids out there today wanting to learn and make something of themselves.

God Bless
tom


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## cabinetmaster (Aug 28, 2008)

My 2 cents. We have let the minority tell us what we can and cannot do . If the majority had over ruled the minority when they took all the principles of punishment away from the parents and teachers, we would and could have better educated kids. Yes there are many kids who want to learn but more that do not.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

another tidbit: we are so focused on creating Einsteins that we skip the basics and jump right into college material. What is being missed in the early grades includes, (the list is gathered from teachers): how to hold a pencil; memorization of the multiplication tables; how to write (cursive handwriting); grammar basics. There is also such a demand on teaching information that there is not enough time to pause and help children through social issues, and character building situations. 
As for whose responsibility is it: teachers or parents-the answer is "society" - it takes a village to raise a child

And here is another tidbit:
"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders…. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers." 
Author: Socrates

Or here's another one: 
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" 
Hesiod, 8th century BC


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Well said MsDebbieP…..................you beat me to it.


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## pashley (Mar 22, 2008)

What I remember about school? They tell you to remember all this stuff, but never told you how to remember it. I'm talking technically about mnemonic devices - things like "In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue…" if they would teach us how to properly use memory, we could retain more. I trained my memory - yes, using those goofy memory systems you see on TV - to be able to recall easily 20 random things, whereas the average person can only do 7 - the same number, not coincidentally, as in a phone number.

Another thing is, we American parents don't put an emphasis on the value of education. Yes, that's a generalization, but accurate I think. Not to stereotype, but we have several Asian families around here, and they demand (and get) academic performance from their kids. They let them know education is valuable, get all you can. In my area, we have nationally recognized public schools. In fact, my elementary school was ranked #1 in the nation. The parents are generally high achievers, so like-wise, their kids are too.

I don't believe that more money for teachers equals better teachers. In the Rochester CSD, the upped the salary something like 20% for teachers 10 years ago, with the premise of hiring the best teachers, and nothing changed really, except the teacher's union got more money. I'm sorry, but I think teachers make a very good wage, when you take into consideration the some 3 months off they get and golden benefits and retirements package - at least here in NY. Don't get me wrong - teaching is not easy, and I sure wouldn't want to be one in the city schools, but they are getting paid enough, in my opinion. I just wonder how much better the "schools" would be if the "parents" - or more accurately, "parent" (since most are single women), instilled the value of education in kids, and not just let the schools be a babysitter.

The schools too need to actually take back the school. If you've never been to an inner city school, you wouldn't believe it - kids can say literally anything to teachers, and not get any, or very little punishment. If they are suspended, or expelled, they get a lawyer to sue the school to let them back in, the legal basis being they "are being denied an education". I worked installing computers in these schools, and was literally afraid to use the bathroom, because their might be a gang in there. I'd see kids handing something off to each other in the halls - drugs, I'm sure. Just an absolute zoo - the inmates run the asylum. It can't work that way . But you have liberal policies in this school and this is what happens. All feel good stuff. Well, how's it feeling now? Then I've been in parochial schools - in which parents pay their own money to school the kids, and it's night and day. Kids are respectful, and well mannered and act like they have brains. We were sending our son to a Catholic school, and a 4th grader - a 4th grader - took us on a tour of the school! She was very well spoken, knowledgeable and courteous - I couldn't believe it. Most adults wouldn't be this good. Yes, we sent him there.

So there you have my 2 cents. Let the schools actually have discipline, teach kids HOW to learn, have parents that know the value of education - and instill that in their kids, and I think you have a decent school.


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## cstrang (Sep 22, 2009)

Cabinetmaster, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your "Yes there are many kids who want to learn but more that do not." comment, there were about 200 people in my grade 12 class and of those 200 only 11 failed to graduate. That figure would lead me to believe that the majority does want to learn and make something of themselves.


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

a lot of that is about breaking the cycle… a number of parents that I have worked with have had horrible school experiences - so they have a hard time saying "Yah school" to their own children.
I've also seen documentaries comparing the inner city schools (the physical buildings) with schools around the corner that are all high tech. 
There are SO many factors that impact our children. 
One thing we can do to make a difference is show our youth respect by treating them with respect and interacting with them-we can teach through example.

It can take one contact with one person to make a difference in a child's life. Every moment we are in the presence of a child we should act as if we are that person in that moment.

This is obviously one of my favourite topics and could discuss it all day long but…. (and now I take my Educator and Mother hats off and go back to woodworking)


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## Billinmich (Mar 8, 2008)

I think a lot of parents are expecting the schools to raise their kids today.Working parents don't have the time or don't want to make the time .Spend time with your kids and you will probably learn something yourself{computer questions}they are not afraid of the keyboard and can do amazing things.I have talked to kids that can't add very well but give them a calculator or computer and watch them go.But I do see kids are afraid of hard physical work and don't want to get their hands dirty.


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## cbMerlin (Jan 13, 2009)

*Just my theory:*

I have about 20 employees. 4 are 40+ year old, the rest are "youth", 18-25. All but 2 of the youth fit the following profile;

When we run out of an item in the service area, the olders go to the stock room and get more, the youth yell out "we're out of…..(whatever)",

If we have a service issue, the olders fix it, the youth come find me and ask what to do…......,

The olders arrive to work up to 45 minutes early, the youth barely make it on time,

I don't have to tell the olders to pull up their pants,

If we have a slow period, the olders get ready for the next busy period, the youth sit down,

Starting to get the picture?

Can you guess which group are the first to ask for a raise?

*Conclusion:*

I really don't think the percentages of youth willing to work hard has changed much over the years, I remember from my youth many slackers that actually made me look better. It's the same today.

I believe however, that todays education system doesn't teach youth how to actually "think". They seem to be taught to enter this number into the computer and then this number and out pops the answer. They seem to be taught *where* to get the answer but not *how* to get the answer. As a result, in the work place, I'm the computer. I'm constantly baraged with questions to the simplest of tasks. I now find myself responding with "if I wasn't here, what would you do?" (almost scarey)

I take faith that the seemingly small percentage of todays youth (2 in my case), will be the leaders of tomorrow. They, as future employers, will always need the rest to do the menial jobs.

That small percentage will then become the ones that complain about the youth of tomorrow in forums like this one some day. They will complain about their "youth of today". They will complain about their tax dollars supporting people not willing to work as hard as they do. The cycle continues.

For those in this forum that complain about today's youth, congratulations, you are in that small percentage that took the path least traveled! You are the leaders! You are the ones that make the difference! Celebrate! Then pray for patience.


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## lew (Feb 13, 2008)

*Kaybee*- It is truly a disgrace, to our communities, when school administrators use this type of logic. They make the assumption that students, enrolled in a "vocational" program, are not intelligent enough to go on to college. In our school- having 30+ occupations taught- every kid is encouraged to go to college/technical school after graduation. We are not 100% successful, but, we do a good job at it.

After reading the experiences posted here, it is understandable why some folks have formed their opinions about our kids. But, believe me, those negative experiences are the exception- not the rule. The overwhelming majority of today's youths are good, hard working and intelligent.

Lew


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## hObOmOnk (Feb 6, 2007)

Dear Math Tutor:

Please check your spelling and grammar. <grin>

All in fun.


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## WoodSparky (Nov 27, 2009)

On a recent trip to my son's school, I had discovered that the shop classes that I enjoyed, had been removed or downsized. Shop class was a great place for practical application of Math,English, and possibly History, if your instructor was old school.
Over the years I have hired many young apprentices that could not read a tape measurer or calculate square footage. Measuements of 6' 5" and few little marks never did me any good. I even caught one guy bending the tape measurer in 1/2 to find the center of a room. My poor Stanley.
I am not trying to say that shop class or the trades are for everyone, but basic understanding of the fundamentals will surely help anyone on the path through life.
Tom


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

cbMerlin
*Can you guess which group are the first to ask for a raise?*

Which is the first to get one? 

BTW Ms DebbieP *As for whose responsibility is it: teachers or parents-the answer is "society" - it takes a village to raise a child*

What if it's a village of morons?


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## nailbanger2 (Oct 17, 2009)

What if it's a village of morons?

Then they will have a hard time electing an idiot!


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## HenryH (Jan 29, 2009)

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!....
Kids!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?


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## grizzman (May 10, 2009)

i think that is the question every generation asks of the other…what is wrong with these kids….....yes this world is in a decline of morals , but we cant have a give up id-us additude…we have to do our best to teach those who we are close to, there are a lot of things that could be listed here as to what should be done..the most important one i think is to strive to have as close a family as possible..and be a positive and teaching influence..example is one of the greatest teachers..what we say and do is what they will learn…..so if were going to go to our graves…which we will all do…lets do it knowing we didn't give up on any incoming generation…lets go down knowing we did all we could to keep humanity at its best…..i have my own personal feelings of why this world is in such decay, but if anyone is interested in that , you can contact me through a pm….....i say god bless america….....


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## HokieMojo (Mar 11, 2008)

Sounds to me like you are saying a lot of the older people are letting a lot of the younger people down.

Also, maybe the banana was closest to 3 ft. You didn't tell this young person what the other options were.


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## pete57 (Jan 22, 2009)

We have no children, my wife and I she is a first grade teacher at a high end school in N Baltiome County, but I do watch people as a pass time. I came up in a bad situation and was raised mostly by my older brother and grandma. I worked in the fields on a tobacco farm, was led to believe that this was the greatest nation on earth, spiritually, mentally, and physically. The world is out there and it is yours. Women are the most valuable of our assets, and take care of your elders because if it was not for them you would not have the freedom to take the world. And everyone knows this one "you take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves" .

I think that it is due to taking fitness out of schools causing parents to get minivans to haul their kids to the practice rounds and games. This is the time parents should have time to work with the kids. *Keeping up with the Jones* Working can cause parents to have ego problems making it impossible to teach their kids or have low self esteem and this does not help either. Parents are worried about what others will say if they say no to a video game for their kids and get them a carprnters tool belt for helping houses for humanity. Their kids will never be home due to playing video games at someone else's(when I got bored my grandpa handed me a hammer and nails and said go practice driving those)

two things that are going to ruin this nation and that is not allowing parents punish their children and Americans that built this country on the thought of having religious freedom have now let the devil come here and take it out of our community buildings, schools, work, courtrooms, and our work places. If you live in America then you have to put up with God as the creator of a nation of Independence for the people by the people ect….......

I think that the things that made my generation the way it was is because we had strictor rules and had more physical activities. Obesity was just a word??? today kids do not run and play the way I did, but have other devises to keep them occupied or out of the parents hair. i wanted to be left alone to play as kids do today but the can't because it takes money for them to have fun now a days. I, we had no communication and today is all about communication.

Real short real story. I went to my brothers house for the day and his new wife has an 8 yr old and he had a cousin about the same age. They were sitting next to each other and on these little pager text gismo's and I aske what they were doing and they were texting each other sitting there side by side. I found this to be strange, but it is a popular thing these days???? I wish we could go back to a time when "you sank my battleship" was the neatest thing!

I do not know what the answers are, but I do know that we are going to have to start taking care of our own to save ourselves. The problems we have are not minor, but need to be addressed asap. hell with pride and ego just do the right thing ya know


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## MsDebbieP (Jan 4, 2007)

all we can do is move forward-learning, adapting, remembering. 
If we keep the "greater good" in our vision then what we do is "good".


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

1) This is a public forum.
2) Excellence will always be that which the vast majority fails to reach for a number of reasons. This is why it is considered excellence. It is attained by those that EXCELL. Excellence evolves as previous levels become commonplace. Excellence is never static or commonplace.
3) Competition encourages excellence. Failure and achievment reveals it.
4) Unions and tenure work to eliminate competition and create a non-competitive environment for groups of people with a commonality that is mediocrity.
5) As this is a public forum with basically no criteria for membership we can probably assume it's participants represent a basic cross section of society (perhaps not but in lieu of more substantive data) and should not be surprised that a simple majority may protest at any suggestion that excellence deserves recognition and reward in excess of the average. ( Yet when presented excellent examples of woodworking creations, will laud the creator with a plethora of ubiquitous compliments.) 
6) While I agree that the general condition of humanity seems lacking on several levels, intellect (or lack of it) often gets noticed more quickly because its presence is judged on the manner in which one communicates and functions grammatically, mathmatically and socially. However, intellect alone will not garantee excellence. The world is replete with unaccomplished genius. (take me for example ) 
7) (and finally) Because of the nature of excellence, we must not wait upon it's arrival to accomplish the tasks necessary for functioning satisfactorily both individually and as a society, but on its arrival take notice, reward, encourage and celebrate in its birth thereby ensuring it's procreation.


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## KayBee (Jul 6, 2009)

Glad to hear that there are still active VoTech programs out there. Quick story about many teachers/administrators attitude towards 'manual' labor.

My oldest daughter was in the International Bacularrete-IB program, sort of an advanced AP class. It's an european designed curriculum that includes 1 year mandatory vocational classes and art. The counselor was basically apologizing for the classes being required. Essentially she said, because 'you don't want to do that, you want to make money.' My daughter then informed the counselor that her father is a certified master mechanic and how much he makes. Counselor almost broke her jaw, it hit the ground so hard.

This attitude that 'we're' too good/smart for work is found and taught in many schools. It is really starting to cripple us.


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

i always vote ,
every year for 10 years there are ' bond issues ,
usually 8 or 10 . 
fix the local roads , build bridges , money for the schools ,
clinics for the low income , old age homes , library upgrades , playgrounds , etc .
i live alone and have no children in school ,
don't use the library ( to far , gas ) ,
have never used unemployment , or food stamps .
i always vote yes to these needs ,

but to this day ,

NOT ONE HAS BEEN PASSED !

yet these same people never hesitate to criticize 
about how little is being done for THEM !

the youth can't even vote ,
this is all passed down to them !

if you are not helping ,
then you ARE the problem !


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## dbhost (Jul 20, 2009)

An interesting subject…

But let's look at it from a biological perspective.

You are talking 6th graders, the bleeding edge of puberty, when their little skulls full of mush, are also starting to be awash in testosterone, and estrogen. Their bodies are undergoing enormous changes, and the myriad of messages getting through their eyes and ears are as conflicted as ever…

Does it really surprise anybody that kids in that particular phase of life, frequently tune out? The child that answered the question of how many feet is 300 yards and came up with 600 feet may not actually be all that bad. He or she may simply not care. And really, why should they? Mom and Dad more often than not say one thing. Do this, don't do that, live a clean live, be honest etc… All the while the parents are out there getting drunk, and high, and having multiple affairs and whatever…

So is it the failure of the kids, or those that were supposed to have set an example for those kids?


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

David, Character is revealed in difficulty. As I tried to illustrate in my previous posit, the issue being discussed isn't simple. It's a bit simplistic to suggest that the problem will be solved by passing a few bond proposals or that money and resources extracted voluntarily or unvoluntarily will be utilized wisely (which is usually, because of history, the most common complaint).

Currently, the state in which I reside, has pas some legislation to reward students that maintain a specified achievment record in school with state funded aid in secondary school tuition (tax money for grants). The thought behind this is to generate a student base from which to draw individuals whos records indicate a future of excellence in what ever area of education they persue. The measure would require that those recieving the funding would continue to live and work in the state once their education is completed.

The measure recieved support from both sides of the party lines. The left considered it a due consideration based on human rights. The right seemed to support the measure based on the assumption that it would create an increased supply of highly educated professionals from which the business community and legislative body can draw.

There are others that tend to feel , cynically perhaps, that it's just another effort in a never ending list of "good ideas" wherein the cost outweighs the benifit.


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## joe21 (Feb 9, 2009)

I think there is minimal difference from the youth of today then when I was a younger. I am 42 now and was punk kid hell on wheels that could not be told anything. Not sure how my dad got through those times with me and my brother. No, I did not have an IPOD, computer, cell phone or video game. Ok, maybe pong or one of those hand held football games. We did have motorcycles and a shop full of tools and equipment to keep us occupied. I was lazy, mouthy and wanted to sleep till noon. That drove the old man crazy. Its funny how my 2 boys are acting the same as me except they got cooler toys now. Just got to steer them in the right direction and teach them life lessons and they will figure it out. There comes a time in your life that you just have to grow up, you have to if you want to succeed in life.

I read that a male frontal lobe does not fully develop until you reach 25 years of age. That part of the brain is what keeps you from thinking your bullet proof.


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## Cosmicsniper (Oct 2, 2009)

Eh, as a 15 year teacher myself, I can assure you that it is not my job to raise your child. That is your job as a parent. My job is to teach a kid both what and how to learn. I want to create a life-long learners and I'd appreciate not being required to give out TAKS worksheets all year just so a kid can pass an exit-level state assessment. My kids would learn a lot more in a shop class (which no longer exists) than studying for a test which serves only to tell everybody bad our education process is. Mean while, kids that could be achieving great things are being held back because on the few kids that might get "left behind."

From my perspective, school isn't fun - which means learning isn't fun. At least give the kids a reason to learn something - something they can be passionate about, over that worksheets mandated by administrators.

If more parents cared, they would be more active in their child's education, from making them do their homework to asking the school why it is they have NO homework. They would hold schools accountable for not teaching their kids instead of assuming that educators know what they are doing.

Perhaps then, that will breed more qualified teachers, particularly those that have real life experience - though they will cost a little more money.


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

I taught at the university level for a while. Finally got tired of that and moved on. However, I went back as adjunct for another 9 years. Even in that environment the problems were evident. Some of the Prof's, some of the Assoc Prof's were not teachers. They were merely messengers. The student mix was about the same. Some really wanted to learn. Some just cared about the grade. Some just wanted to pay their money and get a degree, not an education. My dad was a preacher. He had his demands. An uncle was military and he had his demands. Another uncle was a farmer and he too had his demands. All were different. While teaching, I gave the students an option on the paper they were required to write. They could hand it in unfinished as many times as they wanted and I would correct it and give it back for them to make the adjustments. Very few took me up on the offer. I was a lousy student in high school. I quit at 17 years of age and went into the military. But, this high school drop-out ended up with two PhD's and 3 Masters degrees. I have a lot of education but very few answers. I listen to people that have all the answers and it appears to me they have missed part of the question. It seems that this is one area where Solomons phrase, "this too shall pass", does not apply. Rather, this too shall be passed on…..


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## patron (Apr 2, 2009)

mics54 ,
i'm not suggesting that bond issues will solve anything ,

all that i am saying ,
is that nothing will get any better ,
if no one gets involved somehow .

leaving everything up to someone else ,
while we watch t.v. isn't caring ,
it's ignoring .

i am not pointing fingers at anyone ,
just joining in a discussion .


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## GaryC (Dec 31, 2008)

And you're exactly right, Daved. If we had more tight ends and less arm chair quarterbacks, things would be different.


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## HenryH (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm not sure we can declare the downfall of American Civilization based on a small group of sixth graders, who by all accounts, do not appear to be very bright.
I think this generation of American youth is better educated, better connected to each other, have more useful information at their finger tips and more aware of the wider world around them than any generation before them.
I'm sure they will be prepared to face any mess or challenge we leave behind for them just like any other generation of before them.
As for me, I am optimistic for their future.

BTW, Two teenage daughters, 10th grade and freshman in College. If I just based my opinion on the observation of teenagers I would say there was no hope but I am trying to think past that.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

The real question is: Why does every generation have to learn the hard way?


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## End_Grain (Oct 23, 2009)

Education starts and for the matter ends in school. Learning how to learn and having an appreciation, desire and value to learn for the sake of learning starts at home 6 years before they enter 1st grade. A parent doesn't need to be a rocket scientist or an English/Lit major. All the parent has to be is appreciative of learning. A parent that instills this value to their children guarantees their children's future endeavors no matter what socioeconomic level they come from. A child that does not possess this value is doomed to failure no matter how rich or poor they are. That is how I see the problem. Over simplistic; most probably. I can educate and teach any children that wants to learn, I can not educate a child suffering from severe cases of WIIFM disease (What's In It For Me).

I have 4 adult children. 1 is a practicing vet, 2 are CPA accountants and the last is a graphic designer. When you look us (Mom & Dad) you have to wonder "How". My wife and I are average, we are neither the shiniest nor the dullest apples on the tree. Just ordinary people living ordinary lives. Nothing spectacular, no published paper, no awards, nothing, nadda. So what was our recipe for success? We taught our children to appreciate learning for nothing other than the sake of learning. I would always tell them if you can't find at least one thing you learned new each day, you wasted that day of your life. The majority of the students I see today ask first, " What is in it for me if I learn what you are teaching?" They have no 'thirst' for knowledge unless of course it is connected to some immediate object of self gratification.


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## pommy (Apr 17, 2008)

you should all come to England we teach kids of 5 about domestic violence not how to get on in the world of work …...................


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## HenryH (Jan 29, 2009)

Well said End grain.
We also do the 'What did you learn today?' at the dinner table. Everyday. It doesn't have to be much, just something but you have to answer. It also give us something to talk about. we are down to one and she really likes it. That means I also get that question thrown right back at me, usually before I can ask so I need to be prepared.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

You would think that Darwin is right, in that smart people would attract smart people and every successive generation of people would be smarter then the generation before them and this would be true if not for the fact that stupid people breed faster then smart people…...........to make matters even worse, half the smart ones are far more greedy then most of the stupid ones which might be why we are in the mess we are in.

My better half is a teacher of 15 years and she teaches math and although she is an awesome teacher who has over the years influenced many boys and girls to succedd, her practical applications of what she teaches needs much to be desired.

Stupid people need jobs too.


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## MattH (Jun 9, 2008)

I spent a number of years teaching at University level prior to joining the business world.

I didn't discover any new truths, especially. What I did find was that I couldn't successfully categorize students without working with them for a while. Some of my students had grown up in well-off households, yet did desperately poorly in school, for a variety of reason; some had grown up in grinding poverty and did well.

I think that there's an art to teaching. A teacher has to be able to engage the students' attention - it's not enough to be personable and a master of a subject matter area. Yes, one can argue that responsibility to pay attention lies with students and their parents, but study after study has demonstrated that students retain more when they're entertained than when they're bored.

I tried very hard to keep the classroom interesting. I didn't always get buy-in, but there was at least something effective going on - for four of five years, my students won the freshman writing prize. So learning is a two-way street - the student has to work hard, but the teacher has to engage them with ideas. It's hard but it creates a dynamic environment in which students are willing to trust the teacher and dive deep.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

(C Strang) What's a convince store ?I never heard of that before.Is it a typo? Anyway there are kids leaving school without basic maths , and ability to read in London I read recently.Alistair


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Alistair, A convince store in the US is a small store on nearly every corner that sells everyday items, milk, beer, more beer, usually gas, did I mention beer, sort of like a mini-grocery store with 2x prices.


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## depictureboy (Jun 5, 2008)

Thats one of the funny things about our local Technical school the majority of its students go on to college better prepared than the public high school kids. Of course there are rules in the tech school, but unfortunately they are starting to get lax about them. Used to be you had to maintain a B average or you had to go back to the regular schools, broke the rules you go back to regular schools….etc….it was(and I think for the most part still is) a privilege to attend it, recently I heard about some fighting and stuff that seems to be allowed to happen now instead of nipping it in the bud…which is a shame…hopefully they will get back on track before I send my kids there.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't have a problem supporting our schools, but I do have a problem when they're run like indoctrination centers that seem hell bent on teaching political correctness instead of the basics. They insist on teaching about "Billy has two Dads or Moms" or that were to blame for all the planets woes. Schools should teach facts , not what some teachers theory or moral compass dictates. The Moral issues should be taught by parents. I blame the parents because we let it happen. Our public school system is getting worse every day and the only way to correcting it is for parents to get involved and insist on responsible teaching. I don't really think there's much hope in that If were willing to put a group of socialists in charge of our government!


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## dennis (Aug 3, 2006)

My mother was a teacher for forty years. She claimed it all changed the day the Fox network put the Simpsons on the air. No more respect, not just for elders, but each other too. It might be just that simple. Garbage in garbage out.


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## SCOTSMAN (Aug 1, 2008)

we call them convenience stores here.Sorry I misunderstood so you call it a convince store I wonder why?Alistair


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Because it is so convenient to get your gas and a 6 pack for the road at the same time)


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## JJohnston (May 22, 2009)

We call them convenience stores, too. "Convince" might have been an automatic spell checker trying to second-guess the human author.


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## teenagewoodworker (Jan 31, 2008)

ugh when i hear this i thank god that i go to the 19th best school (and the oldest) in the country. even being in the city i hear things like this everyday and its a disgrace but luckily im surrounded by students who actually care about learning. idk but it seems like with even kids 2 or 3 years younger than me theres no want to learn. personally i love to learn. some teachers make it stressful and take the fun out of it but i just love to learn new things and end grain if it makes you feel any better i have an A+ right now in precalc and im really looking forward to calculus next year and maybe a more advanced calculus course in college.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

This all started when they took The Walton,s off the air !


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Guess I shouldn't be reading a typing with a low grade migraine )


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

John, I think it might have been the loss of the "Beve"


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## craftsman on the lake (Dec 27, 2008)

I taught school for 30 years. Each generation says the same thing about the youngsters. I think it's more perception. "Kids can't add". Maybe not but they can use a calculator. You know, the ones that have all the numbers and buttons that we have no clue to what they do? "Kids can't read well". Maybe some of them can't but they can communicate circles around us. You don't even know half the stuff they can do.
I think that what's important to us just isn't important to them. So, we see them as incapable. They see us as doing old stuff. The find us quaint.


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## cranbrook2 (May 28, 2006)

One of the biggest problems with kids nowadays is they spend way too much time playing video games instead of using their imagination to learn something useful for themselves . Electronics are a big part of the problem !


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## DaleM (Feb 18, 2009)

I agree with the ones on here that say each generation says the same thing. This is nothing new and the next generation is just different, maybe better, maybe worse, maybe neither, but definitely different. There are good people and bad people of any age. There have been prisons for centuries for a reason. There have also been great artists, craftsmen and scholars for centuries and there still will be centuries from now IMO.


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## chuck66 (Aug 21, 2009)

I just wonder what the heck kind of exercise program Marsha's on that she runs only 300 yards a day.


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## Gene01 (Jan 5, 2009)

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. 
Yeats

In 37 years in education, I was privileged to know 3 teachers with a match. I married one of them.


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## interpim (Dec 6, 2008)

I honestly think most people that have negative views toward today's youth are confusing intelligence with maturity.

Responsibility and accountability usually earn folks a lot of maturity. Once these kids you are so afraid of start having to rely on work/intelligence to eat, they will come around.


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## Dennisgrosen (Nov 14, 2009)

*Pashly* I only agree with you on that thing abaut they must be teach´t how to learn 
but also how to think and reflect on what they have learn´t and how they can use there nowlege to creat the answer and also if every falls also how to find the anser bye them self

*ND2ELK* payment is maybey too low but that not the hole issue

*Cstrang* I am agree with you that just becurse of age that you can´t juge anyone

*Cabinetmaster * punishment for it´s own resent had never been and will never be the anser

*Ms Debbie P* well spoken abaut breaking the cycle

*Cbmerlin* I am not totely agree with you (look at what I wrote to Pashly) and then we will have winners on all level´s

*MattH* it´s all abaut to make the thing´s interesting enough ( as I remmember from my own time I wuld ten time´s more have a teacher who cared that we did learn and was inspiring than a teacher who was tiered of the job and was borring to lissen to

*John* well well don´t blame the electronic´s game a lot of them train there brain´s to bee both faster and smarter than most of the grovn up´s john just learn to tacle them the right way becurse you haven´t lost the" to be parrent game" if you do that

I do have too much to say abaut how my own kid and education in Denmark but it is 2 a cloc in the night here and it took me far longer than expectet to write this so for now good night everybody but I will be back

Dennis


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## Sean (Jul 2, 2008)

Have you considered the possiblity that these kids aren't stupid, they just don't care if they get the answer right?
I was in high school when they started the ISTEP testing here in Indiana. Put me in study hall where I had to take tests for 6 hours a day for a week? Response to that was to fill out every answer as 'a' and then read a book til it was time to go home.
Mature I know, but I was an immature teenager.
My concern now is different. I have 3 children in school, and I have pulled them out of the public school system and sent them to a private school here in town. Why? Class size went from 35 in a class, to 13 in an entire year. Teachers are able to exert not only more effort per child, but are able to keep control in the class.
Everybody complains about it, but when the time comes that they want to raise taxes to improve the schools, everyone shouts bloody murder. You can't have it both ways. Want the kids to have a large enough schools with enough teachers, well-paid teachers? Pay for it. With that dirty word, Taxes. and i will, even tho my kids dont go there. Don't want to pay for it? Then don't complain. Nothing is ever free.
As far as the maturity level and the kids who don't want to learn, that will never change. Fine, the world needs ditch-diggers too. I didn't manage to pull myself together and get some ambition even after a year of college, it took my enrolling in the Army to pull my head out of my four-point-contact.
As for the discipline, I'm of two minds about that. Yes, my sons need a butt whooping now and then, but I'd beat any other man that put hands to my kids within an inch of his life.


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## LeeinEdmonton (Aug 5, 2008)

Well now….let's stir the pot a little. I'm 78 years old & the only complaint I have is that my shop tools have aged right along with me.Most of them are older than a lot of members on this forum. I don't run anywhere…never have & the other side of this coin is my hips & knees still work fine thank you. My wife & I did not have children…..& we have had inane people ask "don't you miss not having children ?" How the heck do you miss something you never have had ? I would like to know who really thinks those funniest home movies they show on TV are actually funny….mostly they involve violence. And who designs those stupid ads for TV & worse of all is the thought that some corporate cluck actually approved them.
Tell me something….speach is the gift of communication. If this is so why the h*** are people spitting out words like a machine gun so fast that few other people can understand them. Couple that with more folks are talking through their noses & what's with all the bobbing of heads when people talk. Another one….who started that fad of jogging of the knee while seated ? If you know….put the jerk out of his misery. It's probably the same guy who can sit properly anyhow….he sits with his legs spread apart to treat everyone else to a prime view of his crotch…yuk.Don't ask me what I think of politians in both the U.S. & Canada. So there.


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## bunkie (Oct 13, 2009)

I love the Yeats quote.

Despite the gloom, this is an exceptional age, one where knowledge is not confined in institutions, but is freely available to almost everyone. Perhaps the ease of access thereof tends to make us jaded, but, in my opinion, this is a golden age. And, believe me, there are plenty of young people taking advantage of it.


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## cbMerlin (Jan 13, 2009)

*mics_54*
It's an extremely rare occurance that I give a raise based on someone asking. I reward based on results, period. If I have an employee ask for a raise, that's not on my list of performers, I help them set very clear cut goals, some short term, some long, some simple to achieve, some a little more difficult, with very specific values (amount of raise) associated with each goal. Small raises for small goal achievement, larger for greater achomplishments. They clearly know and can track for themselves where they stand in terms of accomplishing the goals. I don't reward effort in salary terms, only results. I find other ways to recognize effort, just not salaries.


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## chuck66 (Aug 21, 2009)

Bravo, Lee.


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## mmh (Mar 17, 2008)

Could one assume that a child's or adult's behavior is a direct reflection of the parent's involvement of that person's upbringing? Saying that, makes me wonder how involved those kids are with their parents.

How can kids learn what's right or wrong or acceptable and unacceptable if the parents are too busy doing their own thing and little or no time is spent as a family interacting, learning and communicating? Too many electronic gizmos to distract one's attention along with not having to be responsible to do chores if someone else is paid to do them or if you can bribe your parents to pay you to do what you should be doing to help the household.

The media doesn't help with what they air on TV or the movies. The sitcoms and dramas are too painful for me to watch as I feel the writers and producers are treating the viewer like an idiot who doesn't know enough to turn the stuff off and rather sit there mesmerized while being bombarded with insults to their intelligence.

The sex and violence are just a bit too raw for young viewers, and maybe for not so young viewers for uncensored TV viewing. An example is when my step-son was 10 yrs. old, he told his dad that he thought he was ready to have sex. How he came to this conclusion is unknown to me, but when you think of the level of sex shown on TV, magazines, movies, etc., how can you expect anything less than him thinking that it's OK, and normal? The media is into $$$$ and the Shock Value brings it in. So what was risque yesterday has got to be amplified. What they don't show is the after effect of the sexual encounter. The thing that you have to feed 9 months later.

So maybe some scare tactics are in order. Each child/adult from the age of 9-28 should spend one month a year working in a daycare center, hospital, nursing home or a farm. This way they learn about caring for people who need things done for them. They learn how to do things and about compassion for others. On the farm they get to learn how their food is created. It's doesn't just come from a refrigerated container wrapped in plastic. You have to get dirty and work hard, or don't eat. If everyone were raised this way we'd have a lot less idleness and complaining, and maybe less war as we'd all be too darn tired to fight trying to feed ourselves.

Just my 2 cents.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

My dad used to say there weren't any fat people durinmg the Depression. Those who worked hard enough to eat weren't fat and those that didn't work that hard didn't eat so they weren't fat etiter.

The assumptions of a child's behavior being directly tied to the parents after about age 10 or 12 is BS!! They develop minds of their own. All you can do is start them with good basic values, let them make their mistakes if they will not listen and they will eventually develop a brain.


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

I don't believe anyone developes minds of their own. We are all a product of every event, genome, impression, and pathology to ever cause circuitry formations in the synapses of our brains. Our ideas may adapt over time with postulation but those posits are dictated by the same stimuli that forms our very natures. While I think it is true that parents or primary care giver can greatly influence a childs development and subsequent adulthood, positively or negatively, much like the archer can aim the arrow at a target, the flightpath can be altered many ways predictably often…but not always.


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## roman (Sep 28, 2007)

Lazy isnt limited to the youth. I've hired and fired more lazy adults, from thier twenties to sixties and have noticed that race, creed, colour make little difference in an individuals work ethic, nor do tatoos, body piercings, hair sytyles and clothing apparel.

My father was a strict, extremely religous, hard working man who had little time for excuses, complaining, whining and my mother wasnt far off that. We had a TV and on Sundays we were allowed to watch Walt Disney. They grew their own vegatables, canned fruit….....it was a frugal upbringing but my memories are like a Tom Sawyer novel, or Huckle Berry Fin, full of adventure, lots of outdoor activities.

I raised my two girls alone. No TV, no video games. The were allowed to play, eat, have fun only if their chores were done. We did a lot of camping, hiking, canoeing, art and spent many a day in the shop building things. They are grown now, one just graduated with her masters, the other just entered medical school and both are still two of my best friends. When they come home, they go to work right away, picking up dog do do, cutting grass, washing clothes and they always help and are eager to participate in cooking meals.

I now live with a woman who has three kids, one at University, one in her senior year of high school and a boy in grade 10. They might be considered my "step children" but they have a father who is a part of their life. In the 7 years we have lived together their father has never taken them on a holiday. All the kids have video games, spend countless hours texting and playing on facebook. I never see them outside unless they are forced. They are "blasted with Christmas presents, so many that most are left un-opened. They have memorized every single TV ad on the tube, they watch endless hours of what I refer to as "stupid TV", the rediculas reality shows like "The Hills", Oprah, Dr Phil, The City. They cannot walk two blocks and wont go to friends house unless they are driven. They all play or played rep hockey, figure skated, belong to ski clubs, play every sport available, they all sleep in past noon on week-ends and the first thing they do is turn the idiot box on.

Yesterday it snowed and their mother asked the boy if he had shovelled the walks and he replied "I couldnt find a shovel" and she asked where he looked for a shovel and he said that he looked in the shed and around the house….............and his mother took that at face value and I interjected

"Come here young man"..........and look out this window"

he replied in his usaul sarcastic tone "What"

"You see the shed over there?"

"Ya"

"Unless your the bionic boy, how did you look in that shed without leaving footprints in the snow?"

"Look down"

"Ya"

"Do you see the snow shovel".........."And do you see any footprints?" "You can lie to your mother and get away with it but you cant lie to me, I like ya kid but your behaviour is starting to piss me off"

My point is, that these kids that live under my roof are lazy because their parents allowed them to be lazy. These kids that live under my roof have feelings of "entitlement" because their parents allowed it.

As the old saying goes "Most apples dont fall far from the tree


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Dan, How do you explain the "bad apples" that pop up in good solid famlies?


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## GFYS (Nov 23, 2008)

Topamax, I guess by repeating what I posted.


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## TopamaxSurvivor (May 2, 2008)

Guess I read it with to strict an interpretation Dan 

Roman, Sounds like they are in for a rude awakening in the future. I was raised on a farm. By the time I was 8 or 10 I had decided there had to be an easier way to make a living. So I moved to town and retired to god money and 8 hour days/ 40 hour weeks at 19 years of age. Lots of people ask how I retired when I was 19 

When my son was writing one of his first resumes, i told him to start with paperboy from age 9 to 17, and to always start with that first job. Any kid that does paper routes for 8 yrs is dependable and knows how to work!


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## DrDirt (Feb 26, 2008)

A great part of the apparent decline also comes from the 2 income homes. I realize that the way the economy is that both parents working is the norm. 
However, it is the daycare provider that is raising you kids - and the "low price" ones speak little english and just park junior in front of the TV and hand them snacks (once you are out of the driveway).
A result is that families are not as close knit as the once were, and when parents get home exhausted - they don't communicate well with their kids.
What I see different in the school itself for my kids, is that kids are simply taught to take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, and make sure of the no child left behind.
Elementary school - Science is taught in the Science room on rotation, so kids get 30 minutes of Science per week. Reading is 'Team taught' in that they break up the kids into groups and divvy up the groups to the different teachers. Then they get different assignments based on current skill. So we do not require that the kids develop any set aptitude for reading but rather the slow kids are reading comic books, the fast 3rd graders are reading Harry Potter novels. 
There are two great lies that teachers like to tell - one is that they want the Parents to be involved. Sounds nice - but you need to look at the leftist crap they push on the kids - the administration has its agenda, and they want the kids to show up - preferably on Ritalin and just be quite for some programming.
The second lie is that the pay is bad. My sister in law teaches 1/2 day kindergarten in Southern California for 62K/year. So working 1/2 days, 3 months off, all holidays off, no weekends or evenings - remember this is kindergarted - so not a lot of 10 page term papers to grade. WHen I was getting my PHD in Chemistry, I got to teach the lab sessions for the "Chemistry for Teachers/Nurses" great duty. But too many of these future teachers couldn't care less about kids - rather that they have a solid job- will get tenure, so lifetime employment regardless of skill, benefits and a work schedule that is to die for. Math teachers HS level in the Somerset NJ area are paid in the 70K+ range, again with full benefits and only working 180 days/year. SUmmers off to travel the country by RV and moan about how they are so victimized.

The Answers are -Parents need to raise their children, not a immigrant from Guatamela that you pay 120.00/week….3.00/hour to take care of our kids.
Educators need to teach problem solving, rather than test taking.
Industrial Arts needs to shake the stigma - when I went through (early 80's) everyone took 1 year of Industrial arts, includeing wood, metal, electronics, photography. SO we were learning to actually DO things, not just google them. In my PHD studies in CHEMistry - so Geek Central, I had to take college level metalworking so that we could actual machine from Stainless steel, experimental reactors ourselves. To think that kids now hit college and have only used a screwdriver to pry a paint can open.
Also finance is not in the High schools anymore. 'Back in my day' they taught budgeting, interest calculation, amortization, and how to fill out 1040 forms - - class was "Personal Finance". Now the answer is to get daddys Visa card.

Parents need to lead by example - jobs, driving, principals, drugs, smoking, etc.


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

In my opinion, after Auschwitz we - I mean we as human beings - may only get better.

Maybe USA are experiencing bad times, but it's impossible that they may lose their identity. Well, maybe I'm getting out of theme sorry, what I wanted to say is that I find your "my great nation is…" somewhat melodramatic. Frankly I have never liked the way many Americans were wasting their wealth before this crisis. BIG cars, BIG hamburgers, BIG everything BIG. Maybe USA will be reborn much more reliable and stronger after this crisis, i.e. just the opposite of what you are thinking.

I went to school in a period during which those stupid tests were not in use, at that time people talked together, often quarreling, but never thinking of the others as beings without identity. I do think that such tests may work for, say, the random quality control of the industrial production of jam, not for trying to know what a kid has in his mind or in his soul. Well, just an opinion.


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## FJDIII (Dec 20, 2007)

The youth of today need love and to have a feeling of self worth. Unfortunately today's generation of parents feel that THINGS are the answer. Seems that there is too much trying to divert the attention of today's youth rather than being a part of them. It is up to the ADULTS here to guide the future of our nation by shaping and teaching our children, not the responsibility of the CHILDREN. If we give them the right tools then the possibilities are endless.


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## RetiredCoastie (Sep 7, 2009)

Sorry Antonio but it really isn't any of your business how Americans or any other nations spend THEIR money. If they earned it then they can do with it as they wish. It's not our job to feed the world or solve the worlds problems even though we have done so in the past, more American tax dollars are spent for the good of other nations than any money from any other nation and yes Our nation is a great nation and that doesn't mean that other nations aren't great but if our nation wasn't great why do so many people wish to live here?


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## antmjr (Sep 7, 2009)

RetiredCoastie, no, no, you misunderstood my words! I do think USA are a great and wonderful country, *now and ever*. But, you know, there are many ways to be the greatest. Do you think the USA of the times of Mr.Bush are even vaguely comparable with the USA that saved the world 60 years ago? I do not. And I didn't intend to say that Americans have to feed the world (this problem is for each of us individually imo). I was simply trying to say that - in my opinion - there are many grades of Consumerism in history, and during the last decades we all exaggerated, Americans first of all.
--
Anyway I beg pardon to everyone here if my words looked offensive.


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