# Help with identifying a plane



## botanist (Sep 17, 2008)

I've got way too many tools that I don't use and not enough of the ones I need, so I'll selling off some of my old planes that I inherited from my father. One of them is stumping me, though. It's an old Stanley Bedrock plane that looks like the front broke of and someone decided to make into a butt plane. I can't see any markings other than "Bedrock" on the lever cap and what looks like "Van Kamp" on the blade. I figure, based on it's current state, that it's more of a curiosity or a plane for parts, but I'd like to sell it nonetheless, I just don't know what to call it. It's small (I can't wrap all of my fingers around the handle and my hands aren't that big) and the sole is less than 2 inches wide (more like 1 5/8" or 1 3/4"). Is it worth selling, or should I just hold on to it?


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## LukieB (Jan 8, 2012)

Looks like what's left of a 602 or a 2 with a bedrock cap, does it work as a butt plane? If not I would list all your intact parts separate. #2 size parts are kinda hard to come by, especially Bedrock #2 parts, should fetch you decent prices on Ebay.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

Well, it's not a Bedrock plane body. The cap is from a flat side bedrock and there is no frog adjusting screw, so it is not a Bedrock body at all. I'm not even sure it is a Stanley, based on the shape of the lateral adjuster.

As Lukie mentions, it looks like the remains of a #2 size from some manufactuer. If you are going to sell, the Bedrock lever cap is probably worth more by itself than the piece as a whole.


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## botanist (Sep 17, 2008)

JayT-From what I understand, some of the earlier Bedrock planes (before 1910) didn't have the frog adjusting screw and also had rounded sides like the Bailey type planes, so this could still be a Bedrock plane body, just one built before 1910.


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## LukieB (Jan 8, 2012)

Jay's right, I didn't really look at the frog too close, most likely the simplest explanation is the right one. You probably have a broken "Van Camp" #2 with a Bedrock lever cap.

Jay's also right about the cap alone being worth quite a bit. If it's in nice shape, I'd start the auction @ $75 and see what happens…


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

The frog is a Union, based on the lateral. Maybe a type one. Anything stamped on the iron? oh, Van Camp ( sorry). Sell the cap, and the frog with the bolts. You can keep the iron and chip breaker as spares. The tote would also be worth a bit, and include the bolt for it.

That brass wheel? Left hand or right hand threads? Right hand threads are an early version, the lefties came along later.

Yep, part it out. As for that broken base…...some people use old bases to refinish totes on, including sanding them dowm. They just clamp the old base in a vise, and sand away on a tote. DonW even made a sanding block out of one!


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

From what I understand, some of the earlier Bedrock planes (before 1910) didn't have the frog adjusting screw and also had rounded sides like the Bailey type planes

The early Bedrocks before 1910 had rounded sides, I have several, but the lever caps are different-two or three lines. Single line caps are from later flat side ones. All Bedrocks have the frog adjusting screw. That is one of the things that set them apart from the Bailey line early on. The frog adjustment was added to the Bailey's in 1910.


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## Mosquito (Feb 15, 2012)

Van Camp. I knew that stamp looked familiar on the iron, I just couldn't place it.


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

I think I have one of Van Camp's chisels, as well









That is a #5 Jack plane beside it. Just a small chisel…


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## ShaneA (Apr 15, 2011)

That 1 line lever cap will go for more than $100, seen them go to the high $200 before. Good item for ebay.


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## botanist (Sep 17, 2008)

Everything I'm hearing from you guys is that I've got a Franken-plane. I can see the Union influence on the frog (especially with the lateral adjustment lever), but I'm still confused about the frog adjustment screw on the earlier Bedrock-type planes. One article says that the frog adjustment screw came about on the Bedrock planes in 1910.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/hand/bedrock-bench-planes/

Another article says that the frog adjustment screw on the Bedrocks were there the whole time and that they were added to the Bailey line in 1910.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm

Not sure which to trust more.

For the lever cap, tote, and frog, any idea how I should describe them?


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## bandit571 (Jan 20, 2011)

As a #602 Bedrock Lever cap.

Note: Union frogs never had a frog adjuster screw. Their thread were just a little different than stanley. Union MIGHT have made a "knock-off plane" for Van Camp, back in the day. They seemed to do quite a few of that kind of work.

Tote would also sell as a #602 Bedrock tote, with hardware.


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## botanist (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the help, guys! I learned quite a bit in the process.


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## LukieB (Jan 8, 2012)

I would definitely trust Patrick Leach's opinion (Supertool.com) over Wood magazine's anyday.

Maybe post some pics of the underside of the frog and the base it sits on, the Bedrock's are pretty distinct.

Edit: I just read the Wood Magazine link you posted, I think the Edmund Schade (1910) patent was the system for holding the frog down, not the "frog adjustment screw" that everyone is referring to.


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## JayT (May 6, 2012)

I see where the confusion lies. Both articles are correct, but the Wood Magazine article is just incomplete.

The Bedrocks all had frog adjustment screws from the very beginning, but the way it worked changed in 1910. On the early, round-side ones, you had to remove the lever cap and iron, loosen the frog retaining screws and then adjust the frog via the rear screw. Here is a photo from an ebay listing of a Type 1 Bedrock that shows the bracket and adjusting screw.










The key paragraph in the Wood Magazine article is:

A later improvement in Bedrock planes came in 1910, when Edmund Schade, then superintendent of production at Stanley, *patented a system of draw pins and tapered screws *that allowed the frog to be securely drawn down on the base. At the same time,* this improvement permitted the adjustment of the throat opening without the need to remove the plane iron*. Along with this change, Stanley altered the side profile of the planes to the square or flat-sided type shown above, a change that lasted until Stanley discontinued the line in 1943.

In 1910, the original Bedrock frog adjustment was passed on the Bailey line and the Bedrocks got a new system. With the new setup, you didn't have to remove the lever cap and iron. The frog was held down with pins from the top (notice the lack of slot):










which were connected to extra screws in the back of the frog:










To adjust the frog on the flat side Bedrocks, you loosen the two outside screws on the back of the frog (one on either side of the bracket) and then adjust the center screw before tightening back down. This is the new patent that the Wood Magazine article is referring to and doesn't require removing the iron.


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## botanist (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks JayT, that really clears things up.


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## LukieB (Jan 8, 2012)

......yeah what Jay said : )


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## donwilwol (May 16, 2011)

I'm not sure why, but those bull nose plane sometimes sell on ebay. I've got one listed right now made from a block plane, although nobodies bid on it yet. I'm not sure why you'd buy it, but I've seen them sell for more than a good plane.

My first thought was to change the lever cap for a cheap normal lever cap then list the bedrock cap as an item and the other as a shop made bull nose plane. If it sells fine, if not part it out.

Although, if that's a #2 frog, possibly a Union, it may be worth something as well, along with the cap and iron.


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