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Craftsman 113 blade run out

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Blog entry by woodworkingbuff posted 434 days ago 1280 reads 0 times favorited 12 comments Add to Favorites Watch

I have a craftsman 113 that has .010 run out with out the motor and .025 with motor.
The bearings seem tight and smooth.
Is this common?
I have those adjusters (blade buddy’s, or saw buddy’s I think).
I can’t get that much adjustment out of them.
Can any one help me?
Rich



12 comments so far

View Grumpymike's profile

Grumpymike

1054 posts in 939 days


#1 posted 434 days ago

Had a friend in Kansas City that was frustrated with his table saw, couldn’t get the blade aligned and it just smoked the wood … After we put the blade in the right way … Yah, it was backwards … I loosened up the trunnion bolts and aligned the blade. Yep, he was trying to adjust it with the bolts tight. We all had a good laugh.
I don’t know much about your “Blade Buddies”, but I assume that they are the add on screw adjusters for the trunnions, and there isn’t a lot of adjustment in the trunnions, some what less than an eighth inch.
When you say ”.010 without the motor and .025 with the motor”, I’m thinking with and without the belt installed on the pulleys, that would mean that the Arbor Bearing is worn kind of egg shaped and needs to be replaced.
This is common if the belt tension has been to tight in the past.
I hope that this helps you out.

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it. ... Surprise Az.

View dschlic1's profile

dschlic1

156 posts in 593 days


#2 posted 434 days ago

How and where are you measuring the run-out? If on the blade then it is possible that some of the run-out is due to the blade. Try a different blade or try rotating the blade on the arbor.

If you are talking about the difference in the space between the blade and the miter slot (front and back) that is not run-out, rather the blade not being parallel to the slot. This is adjusted by moving the rear truenion (sp?).

View woodworkingbuff's profile

woodworkingbuff

14 posts in 513 days


#3 posted 434 days ago

Sorry the adjusters is a PALS kit. The blade is not parallel to the miter slot.

View OhioMike's profile

OhioMike

45 posts in 786 days


#4 posted 434 days ago

I had an older 113 series and never had to adjust the blade parallelism so I can’t help with that other than to say that I’ve read stories of owners having to file the trunnion holes oblong to get additional adjustment.

What I can add to the conversation is to let you know that the older 113’s had a problem with the side of the sheet metal cabinet flexing like an oil can. And the side of the cabinet is where the tilt mechanism is attached and consequently the blade angle can move when you hang the heavy motor on the saw or when you strain the saw cutting thick lumber.

Sometime in the 90’s the manufacturer fixed the problem by welding a stiffener inside the cabinet that looks like a U shaped metal bar. If yours is one of the older saws, you can make a stiffener out of angle iron.

Mike

View Grumpymike's profile

Grumpymike

1054 posts in 939 days


#5 posted 434 days ago

Ok, now we have the right information … loosen all four trunnion bolts 1/2 turn, and adjust your “Pals”.
I will bet you a bag of cookies that there won’t be enough adjustment to align the blade or the previous owner would not have added the Pals.
OhioMike has the answer, take the rear trunnion off and file out the mounting hole so that there is more wiggle room. You should be able to just re-adjust the rear trunnion and be home free.
I still question what you meant by with and without the motor making a .015 change.

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it. ... Surprise Az.

View Dusty Saunders's profile

Dusty Saunders

4 posts in 1704 days


#6 posted 434 days ago

I had a 113 and made a precision machine out of it after having the arbor assembly rebuilt with new high speed FAG bearings and new Belleville thrust washers, i also had the arbor flange, and it`s washer trued flat 90 degrees to center line. I also mounted a pair of compression springs to the motor plate assembly from the hardware store to act as shock absorbers to take up the inconsistency and inaccuracy of the belt, pulleys and motor balance hinging off the back of the saw. I made some nice stuff off that saw with some homemade infeed and outfeed roller stands.

Post script:
The first thing i do is to check for parallelism between the blade and the miter groove on the table.
You can achieve this with a small machinist`s magnetic base and plunge indicator ie.. front to rear and rear to front and adjust the trunnions accordingly until the gap is equidistant between the toe and heel of the blade.

Sometimes it may take more than one pair of hands.
Make sure that the saw is unplugged.
Stick the mag base and indicator as close to the blade rim as possible . Take a taller piece of steel that you know is flat and set it into the miter slot and perhaps using a correct length bolt and nut , use it as a jack screw to wedge / retain the flat stock into place. Use three or four sets to secure the steel flat against the miter slot, now you have something to plunge against. With the indicator mounted you can circum rotate the blade forward and backward to pick up your measured offset, subtract one from the other and divide by two and that is how far you will have pivot on a single trunnion bolt to achieve blade parallelism. You can then adjust your rip fence to that so when you push a piece of stock through,there will be no wedge or binding ie….tapered cutting.
Re-check everything once it is properly tightend.
Work with it according to patience, it is and can be a real experience builder.

On some saws there are spring steel Belleville thrust washers used in the arbor bearing assemblies, if these go weak overtime they can throw enough side play into a well planned out job which equals wide kerf and enough rim chatter that will make the neighbors dog go run and hide under something like a bad thunderstorm out on the prairie horizon..

The other thing that i do is remove the blade, inspect everything for burrs, pitch scoring from blade spinning that should have been properly tightened. I`ll stick the indicator on the face of the arbor flange and check it for indicator runout to see how true it is running. ( The arbor assembly may need to be completely pulled and taken down to a machine shop to be trued for runout on a precision lathe) +-.006 T.I.R. is acceptable, as you can mismatch that when you mount the blade touching the indicator at the rim of the blade , the holding nut barely snug, you can mis-match the two opposing offsets between the blade body and the arbor flange and should be able to achieve +-.002-.004 T.I.R. which is pretty sufficient for most saws , everything else is jointer finish.
If it is beyond that, the blade itself may need to be tensioned and flat ground at a reputable sharpen service to get it into proper flatness and true..
Cheers!

-- "Gentlemen , take your family to Church on Sunday!" Stuart in Seattle .....

View dschlic1's profile

dschlic1

156 posts in 593 days


#7 posted 433 days ago

On the 113 saw the front trunnions are also adjustable. If you run out of play on the rear set, try adjusting the front.

View William's profile

William

8971 posts in 1466 days


#8 posted 431 days ago

I have that saw. I had a helluva time trying to get it aligned to the miter slots.
I have the PALS kits on mine as well and could get it square with the miter slot. Then, in a week or two it was off again. Then one day I decided to remove the PALS, loosen all four trunnion bolts (four, two on the front and two on the back) and just see what I could figure out.
What I figure out was that the front trunnion was all the way to one side and the vibration of the saw, even with the trunnion bolts tight, were constantly working on the alignment in a negative way.
I positioned the front trunnion in the middle of the available adjustment, snugged up the bolts, reinstalled the PALS on the back trunnion for easier future adjustments (only on the rear, none on the front), and adjusted the blade alignment using the Woodpeckers gauge (fancy gadget with a dial indicator) until the alignment was PERFECT. Now, to get it perfect was a chore, but the object behind this exercise in frustration was to see if I could eliminate my blade alignment issue for more than a couple of weeks.
That was over a year ago. I checked my alignment about a week ago and, although it isn’t “perfect”, it is within 0.001. I would say that is perfect enough for wood work.

-- http://wddsrfinewoodworks.blogspot.com/

View woodworkingbuff's profile

woodworkingbuff

14 posts in 513 days


#9 posted 431 days ago

William, I had to the back trunnion out and enlarge the holes to slots.
Then I reinstalled and put the pales back on. The plaid has about .005 runout.
So I could only get .005 on the t slot.
I also have the Woodpecker dial indicator. I’m very happy with it.

View Dusty Saunders's profile

Dusty Saunders

4 posts in 1704 days


#10 posted 431 days ago


Checking for circumference run out.
When watching the indicator notice how far the sweep of rotation is before it transition between deep and low points, if it is excessive or has allot of variable distortion in the blade body, chances are the body tension is gone and the body is tweaked or warped from excessive heat ie…..... pitch build up under the tooth overlap or poorly set rip fence parallelism to the blade ie.. cutting false tapers, smoke, heat, binding, kick-back.
There is a blade parallelism set to the miter slot (trunnions) , and then the fence is set parallel to the blade in accordance to that. Equal feed in, equal feed out. Cutting blades as described, will cut a wide kerf, vibrate and leave bad tooth chatter along the cut edge. it will dull carbide fast and high speed steel will warp and destroy itself like wilted lilly reed.
A finely tuned trunnion assembly and a finely sharpened high speed steel planer blade will pare like a finely honed chisel and do some very fine & precision delicate thin kerf cutting for your patience.

-- "Gentlemen , take your family to Church on Sunday!" Stuart in Seattle .....

View woodworkingbuff's profile

woodworkingbuff

14 posts in 513 days


#11 posted 431 days ago

Dusty, thanks for the info. It helps to understand some of the problems I’m having.

View Grumpymike's profile

Grumpymike

1054 posts in 939 days


#12 posted 430 days ago

WOW! from .025 to .005 … that’s huge!
Congrats on a well tuned saw.
now to get that fence adjusted as close. I like mine about .005 proud on the outfeed side, but that’s my taste.

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it. ... Surprise Az.

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