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Anybody use this Whiteside Rail/Stile bit for solid panels?

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Forum topic by BinghamtonEd posted 05-20-2015 05:54 PM 739 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


05-20-2015 05:54 PM

Still in the design phase for the kitchen remodel, and my local hardwood distributor came back with a price of $90 per sheet for 1/4” MDF-core G2S maple plywood. My cabinet doors are going to be a flat panel shaker style, and I have 20 to do. I could spend $200 after tax, and have doors. I’m a bit disappointed in the price, since other places, not local, have it listed around 50-60 per sheet.

Given that I have a source for soft maple at 85 cents per board foot, and no pressing deadline, I’m leaning towards making my own 1/2” door panels from solid wood, and rabbeting the back to fit the groove in the frame. I have an 8” jointer and a 12-inch planer, and hand planes for anything that won’t fit. With the exception of the sink base door panels, at around 12” wide apiece, everything else is 9.5” wide or less, so I could probably do a 2-board glue up for most of those. I also figure this would eliminate any issues I might’ve had with plywood, with the panel not accepting dye the same as the solid wood frame.

It’s my understanding that, since the panel will be allowed to float and provides no glue surface, that the stub tenon approach I’ve used on past doors will not be strong enough for this.

I like the look of this set (model # 6004) from Whiteside (I’ve used their bits in the past and have always liked them) for about $100 shipped. Would that profile give me enough glue surface, on doors with 2-2.5” rails and stiles?

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.


16 replies so far

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1176 posts in 2533 days


#1 posted 05-20-2015 06:07 PM

I’ve got several diff Whiteside profile setups. All are top notch. I’ve got the shaker and ogee and both are plenty strong enough and quality on cut is top notch.

I don’t have that particular profile, but I’m sure it would be the same. I don’t think you need it for your solid panels thought just edge glue is plenty strong enough.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3940 posts in 1970 days


#2 posted 05-20-2015 06:10 PM

I also have Whiteside and have found them top notch. They produce a crisp clean cut.

-- This is a Troll Free zone.

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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


#3 posted 05-20-2015 06:20 PM


I don t think you need it for your solid panels thought just edge glue is plenty strong enough.
- bonesbr549

You think a simple stub tenon would be sufficient? The tallest panel is 9wx26h. I don’t mind spending the $100 on the set, it looks like it would just about double the cross-grain glue surface over a normal stub tenon of equal depth.

I’ve used frame and solid panel construction with mortise/tenon, in a toy box. I’ve made frame and panel cabinet doors with plywood and stub tenon. I’ve not made frame and solid panel cabinet doors, but I would prefer to not have to fix it later. I have no desire to cut mortise/tenon joints on 20 doors.

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.

View Gerald Thompson's profile

Gerald Thompson

808 posts in 1701 days


#4 posted 05-20-2015 06:34 PM

I might be missing something. I have made solid wood Shaker panels and have used a table saw to cut the ends and sides to make a raised panel. They slip right in the rails and stiles and I have never had a problem. The raised side is on the inside and one ends up with a flat panel.
Cut the ends first so that tear out, if it occurs, will be eliminated.

-- Jerry

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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


#5 posted 05-20-2015 06:42 PM

Jerry,
I will be using the table saw or a straight bit in the router table to cut the rabbet on the panels. The set above cuts the profile on the rails and stiles, rather than just cutting a groove and matching stub tenon. The idea is that it provides more glue surface, since the solid panel will not be glued in.

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3947 posts in 1959 days


#6 posted 05-20-2015 06:53 PM

I think the stub tenon would be strong enough, a lot of doors have been made that way. But if you’re concerned with strength, you can make the tenons on the rails a little longer and just cut a mortise in the groove. But that set would work well. Flip a coin.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1176 posts in 2533 days


#7 posted 05-20-2015 06:54 PM


I don t think you need it for your solid panels thought just edge glue is plenty strong enough.
- bonesbr549

You think a simple stub tenon would be sufficient? The tallest panel is 9wx26h. I don t mind spending the $100 on the set, it looks like it would just about double the cross-grain glue surface over a normal stub tenon of equal depth.

I ve used frame and solid panel construction with mortise/tenon, in a toy box. I ve made frame and panel cabinet doors with plywood and stub tenon. I ve not made frame and solid panel cabinet doors, but I would prefer to not have to fix it later. I have no desire to cut mortise/tenon joints on 20 doors.

- BinghamtonEd

If you are speaking about for the rail n stile yes they provide enough surface for glue. I have never used a tongue and grove setup for solid panels. Won’t hurt but imo it’s a waste of effort in the glue up.

A good rip line with proper clamping is plenty If done properly jumping on a panel will break it but not at glue line.

Now if we are talking entrance door some reinforcement is in order but I saw no thing special in your application.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View jerryminer's profile

jerryminer

528 posts in 907 days


#8 posted 05-20-2015 10:23 PM

I get your concern, but there are a million or more cabinet doors in use with stub-tenon construction. They work fine.

If you’re still nervous about it, you can reinforce the joint with a dowel (or a Domino, if you have the technology)—but for a normal-weight cabinet door, an un-reinforced stub-tenon is fine.

View RogerM's profile

RogerM

764 posts in 1865 days


#9 posted 05-21-2015 12:15 AM

First, All Whiteside bits that I have used are super sharp and of very good quality that give superior results. I have one set of their rail and stile bits which perform very well and give excellent results.

On the question of stub tenons, I do not know where you are getting information that they are inferior and will easily fail but I do not believe it is accurate. I have done a lot of cabinetry (kitchens, bathrooms, shops, furniture) and when glued together with Titebond III glue have yet to have a single stub tenon fail. Go ahead with the stub tenons without further concern.

-- Roger M, Aiken, SC

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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


#10 posted 05-21-2015 12:24 PM

OK, I can save that $100 for something else. For the stub tenon, What would be an appropriate depth? With glued in plywood panels, the strength of the end joint did not play as big of a role, so I usually just made them 1/4”-3/8” deep, but perhaps I should bump it up to 1/2”?

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.

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helluvawreck

23189 posts in 2333 days


#11 posted 05-21-2015 12:34 PM

Most of mine are Whiteside and I think that they are fine quality router bits.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3947 posts in 1959 days


#12 posted 05-21-2015 12:52 PM

You can go any depth you want. Just remember the panel will (should) be cut with a piece to fit in the groove. If your doing this for strength that will give you more in the tenon joint but as said above, there is little need for it. I think you’re nervous about it, and when that happens to me adding more (whatever it is) usually calms my fears. A key point to the strength of the stub tenon is the fit of the tenon in the groove, too loose (or too tight) may not work very well.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


#13 posted 05-21-2015 01:01 PM

Agreed, Fred, I’m probably overthinking this. This is my biggest project to date and I want to make sure I have as much detail planned before I start cutting anything. I still have another month or two before I actually start.

The plan for the panel is a 1/2” panel with a 1/4” rabbet around the edge. The raised portion will face the inside of the cabinet. The panel will float in a centered groove with space balls.

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.

View CB_Cohick's profile

CB_Cohick

460 posts in 717 days


#14 posted 05-21-2015 01:05 PM

I get the feeling there is some confusion about what you were proposing to do. I think the glued rail\stile joint combined with some dowels or a domino would be plenty strong.

-- Chris - Would work, but I'm too busy reading about woodwork.

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BinghamtonEd

2281 posts in 1836 days


#15 posted 05-21-2015 01:13 PM

Chris, I think most of the responses have been in line with what I’m trying to do. Buying the domino definitely is not happening. I’ve already factored $500+ in tools (Earlex, PC Dovetail Jig, Cutlist Plus) into this project, and I think any more would probably not go over well with my wife. That would blow the budget by about, well, the cost of the domino. I’m looking for a joint that I can cut in one operation, rather than cutting the joint and then adding an additional step. If a stub tenon or cope & stick would achieve this, that’s the route I’m going to go.

-- - The mightiest oak in the forest is just a little nut that held its ground.

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