Flourescent light flicker/ballast, bulbs, everything all new!

You better have your main entrance check; you have a loose connection in your main box.
You can make a test yourself put your ear on the main box if you can hear a sizzling sound.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

You can make the same test at your meter box too.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

Thnak you GMman. I just did the test and I do hear a humming but no sizzling sound. I will look into it further tomorrow. Anyone else have any ideas?

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

Hi Chris

Up to the point of you saying all the lights with 40 watt tubes flicker I was ready to say it could be one of the following:
bad tube(s)
bad starter (if it has one)
bad ballast

When you said that all of them are acting strange, then I would suggest having an electrican look at the voltage that is feeding the lighting circuits. It could be that the supply voltage (for whatever reason) is not sufficient to operate the fluorescent fixtures.

-- Sam

Let me know if you found anything, one time I had a breaker that was making my lights dim down I had to repace it. I should say let us know.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

GMMan is probably on the right track. That would account for a lower voltage. Please exercise extreme caution. I’m an electrical engineer and I take every precaution I can. Especially when things are acting strange, you don’t know what the person that was in there before you did was done correctly or slipshod.

-- Sam

I have 35 years with the Power company here and I have seen all kinds of problems,it could be at the feed to your service entrance from the pole to your house make sure to have it checked.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

Are you running old magnetic ballasts or new-fangled electronic ballasts? I don’t like electronic ballasts. They are more susceptible to noise. It is quite possible that when you replaced one electronic ballast, the new one generates enough noise to couple to all the other electronic ballasts and causes flickering in all of them.

One way to fix this is to decouple noise at each electronic ballast with a capacitor across the power line. Without getting into gory details, it requires intelligent choice of value and type of the capacitors to meet volatge requirements (code? I am not sure electrical codes even cover this). In the end, I don’t have any electronic ballasts in my house or shop (aside from CFL replacement for socketed incandescents and that’s an entirely different discussion).

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

EEngineer I know what you mean but I would make some tests before going with all that expense and still may have the same problem,I would have my main feed check first.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

GMman – you are right. Check the power feed first. I went through a lot of this in my basement, however, and ended up replacing the damn electronic ballasts. Sam Yerardi brought up an interesting point, too. Mickey Mouse did a lot of wiring at my house before I bought it :)

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

Probably should check to see if the lamps and ballasts are compatible?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

just a thought – are your florescent lights controlled by a dimmer light switch? or a regular on/off switch? dimmers don’t work well with florescent lights (since florescent works off of gas, and not off of heat) and might cause them to flicker – or not work at all.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Dimmers should stop them from coming on. While flickering is normal at the end of lamp life and can occur in the first 100 hours of new lamp life, it is odd that it all started at once. If the lamps are the proper ones for the ballasts, I would guess that there is some kind of “noise” on the line. It may even be being introduced by another person on the same power company transformer output. Probably the easiest way to check it would be hooking the light fixture up to a separate source of power. Like a generator if you are capable of doing that. Might be able to find a small power conditioner for computer use, but it would probably be cost prohibitive.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

OOps, forgot to menton, always replace the lamps in pairs. Use new with new and old with old.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I have found that sometimes there is a bad contact with the prongs and a little wiggling/moving/turning, etc. will stop the bulb from flickering…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I think I figured this out, at least I hope I did. I move all the flo’s to different outlets on a circuit seperate from my shop. I’m thinking it was because of the constant on and off of my power hungry tools. I am running off of three separate breakers now, one for the lights and radio and two for the all the tools on 110. Thanks for all the help guys, I will let you know if things change!

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

I don’t think that rules out a possible problem with your Shop circuit… (I’ll let the experts comment…)

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

A bad ground (not the neutral, but the safety ground) can introduce flicker in fluorescent light. I suspect you have a bad ground in your shop circuit, since changning to different breakers, which should have separate runs for their grounds, fixed the problem. That is, unless you meant dimming and almost going off instead of the “sine wave” flicker inside the bulbs themselves.

-- M1911BLDR

I spoke to soon. It is back. It isn’t the sine wave flicker that some of us can see. They are actually flickering in the classic sense of the word. They will dim, brighten, dim again, go off, come on dimly, brighten, rings will travel up and down the length, then dim again… you get it. I volt-metered every outlet in the basement and everything seems kosher. Could the fact that two of the 5 lights don’t have the third grounding plug on them make a difference? Perhaps because there is charge building up in the unit? I don’t know, I am just pulling stuff out of my arse now but I am really at a loss. My girl insists it is the humidity, I told her to shut her pie-hole and she didn’t talk to me for an hour or two, it was bliss! A clue may be that if I am absent from the shop awhile and then come back and turn them on they are fine until I use a power hungry tool, after that it is all over and it looks like there is a disco hall in the shop. I about had convulsions earlier trying to clamp a frame I built.

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

The lamps definitely operate at best efficiency along a grounded metal strip. In most cases it is the cover of the fixture. Wide multiple lamp antique fluorescent fixtures had small spring mounted strips about 1/2” wide above each of the lamps. I haven’t seen any of those in years:-))

As far as noise, harmonics or wild wave forms, or what ever else you want to call the interference generated by all of our modern electronics; it can be a wild guessing game to pin down. Anyone who tells you any differently and claims to be an expert, doesn’t have a clue:-)) There have been cases where a large electronic load of computers and electronic ballast, ect have generated more load on the neutral than the total of the hot conductors!! Needless to say the days of under sizing the neutral for panel feeders and services are over.

If you do have a grounding problem, it would be best to get it identified and taken care of. Open grounds on the service panel can allow the voltage to float as high as 200 volts on one leg of a 120/240 volt service. Light bulbs popping as fast as you can put them are a sign of that problem. All of your expensive electronic equipment can be at risk. Heavy loads like motors coming on are the cause of the voltage floating high to the lighter loads, so they can take it:-)) Hope this helps more than confuse!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Chris, looks like you posted while I ws typing. I’d start by tightening all the neutral and ground connections in the panel and the branch circuit wiring. See what happens?? good luck:-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

PS, gound all the 2 wire connections. Is your wiring so old you do not have a ground conductor with the circuit?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

You might try cleaning the contacts…
Sandpaper (220 grit :) ) on the tube prongs.
Small round file in the base prong holes…
... ONE at a time… and KEEP YOUR OTHER HAND BEHIND YOUR BACK!

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Topamax, How do I ground those connections? Can I just run a chunk of copper wire from the housing of the light to my water pipe on other side of the room? Another thing too, I have a flourescent above my washer and dryer and last night during a storm everytime there was lightning it would briefly flash, almost imperceptibly. I thought I was seeing things at first so I killed all the lights in the basement and then I saw it for sure. It was actually cool…..

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

I told you from the start what to look for and if that is not your problem call the POWER COMPANY or an ELECTRICIEN before you end up with a fire.
You’re getting too many Mickey moose advice.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

GMman, I would love to call a power company or an electrician but having been cut hours recently I don’t have the money. We are barely keeping up with the utility bills, much less an electrician. What I am doing now is flipping the breaker for the entire basement when I am done in the shop. That will have to suffice for now.

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

Yoiu should use 3 conductor cords and cord caps to ground the lights and any other equipment. If you do not have an equipment ground in the circuit, then, run a coper wire, #12, to the nearest water pipe or back to the panel.

You can check all the ground and neutral connectioins in you panel. It’s common to get a half turn or more on them after a few years. I have seen totally loose ones not causing a problem and some that only take a 1/4 turn to be a problem, go figure that, eh? :-))

I’ve never seen lightning in a flourscent tube, but about any signal that is very strong and close to them will do it. we don’t have a lot of thunder storms here.

Sounds like you have isolated the problems to a single circuit in the basement?? The rest of the house is OK?
Do you have an incandescent bulb on the circuit? If you do, watch it for a little while with other things in the house happening. It won’t take much of a voltage variation to see it on an incancescent bulb. Have your wife go around with a hair dryer turing it on in various parts of the house while you watch the bulb and let us know what happens.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I would pull the bulbs out of the ‘new fixture and see if the rest of the fixtures settle down.
You mentioned that once you replaced this ballast then everything else went apeshit….
If you pull these and everything is fine, then there is something not right about either that new ballast or the wiring of the fixture is screwey

-- Its never too late to have a happy childhood. But the second one is up to you and no one else.

I just reread this thread for excitement and relaxation after getting my business taxes done!! :-(( I’m with G-man, I think it will be a ground/ loose connection issue. When this started I thought Chris was talking about an interference question but he cleared it up by saying they go totally off and come back on.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Chris… Here the Power Company will check all outside connections free of charge. I know that electricians are expensive but a house fire is also expensive. You may have a friend with electrical experience to check that for you, if I was close to you I would do it for free I do it all the time here in my neighbourhood.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

chris, if your shop is on a sub panel all the grounds and neutrals must be isolated in just the sub panel. Your problem sounds like what is called a ground loop or a loose neutral. The switch is the first thing i would check. Also find what breaker the circuit is on and see if it is warmer than the others. Shut off the breaker and tighten it up. Trace the cable coming into the panel and snug up the neutral also. Obviously be careful in a hot panel. you may have done all this already. I have also seen squirrels and mice chew wires going to cieling fixtures. A new switch would cost you just over a buck and is common to all your lights. If only a few lights are acting up trace the path of the fixtures, (they should be jumped togehter). The last one in line working properly, or the first one in line that is acting up is where a bad splice may be.

-- FMG

I agree with the other folks here that it’s probably a loose connection. In addition to ground wires, check the connections on the circuit breakers. Circuit breakers have a metal clip that provides spring like tension to connect to the bus bar in the breaker box. Those become weak over the years and relax slightly. When that happens, a tiny arc can occur between the breaker and the bus bar and will build up a burnt looking carbon deposit over time causing low voltage, flickering, heating, etc. Any loose connection will do the same.
As for lightning causing flourescent tubes to light, yes, that’s common. the gasses in the tubes light up, or floures (sp) when a current passes through the tube. If you hold a tube near a two way radio antenna and press the transmit button on the radio, the tube will light. Be sure you don’t touch the tube’s contacts!

-- WayneD

If you have a small panel like the old type you may have to much load on the same breaker which would do the flickering on florescent and not on incandescent lights.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

You might want to check the connections at all the outlets too. Most residential electricians use the plug the wires in the back receptacles. All there is to maintain the continuity of the circuit is a little spring tab point against the wire. This connection is a real common point of failure in residential branch circuits. When I show people what their problem is and how to make the box up with wire nuts so the device doesn’t cause anymore problems, they frequently ask why I don’t wire houses and do it right? Because cheapest is best and and I can’t make a living competing in that market ;-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Hmnmm the ones that are flickering don’t have a/c blowing on them perchance?? fluorescents don’t care for the cold much . . . . .

-- Fred, Springfield, Ma

You’d have to have them in a atmosphere similar to a refer unit for that to happen.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

topamaxSurvivor
as I recall the vapor pressure will be determined by the coldest spot on the tube, and a stream of cold air from a close by vent would sure do it

-- Fred, Springfield, Ma

I’ve seen a lot of things shut down fluorescent lights in the last 40 years; ie, cold outdoors & in refer units, fog, even eddy currents caused by the line voltage wiring feeding the fixtures. HVAC equipment normally puts out air that is well tempered by the time it reaches the tubes. You’d have to have a duct blowing extremely cold air directly on the lamp to cause a problem. I’ve never seen a problem with them in computer rooms which are normally the coldest indoor atmospheres you find except for cold storage units. I can’t imagine why anyone would build a system like that. Flourescent lamps usually start well below freezing without any problems even with non shrouded tubes and indoor rated ballasts.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

There is no cold air blowing on them. there is, however, a total of 6, two-bulb forty watt lights on one breaker. I undid what I previously did after reading some of your posts. I really appreciate all the respomses guys. I will have more time tomorrow to deal with this. I am going to start at the panel and work back.

Topamax, you are a true help for everything, sincerely, thank you.

GMMan, I appreciate your willingness to come check it out, I know you would if you were closer.

Anyway, I am going to start at the box and work my way back. I borrowed a cheap voltmeter from my dad, what should I look for with it? Do I just check voltage in the outlets? Is there any way to check appropriate continuity in the fixtures? Would continuity even make a difference? Does anyone know a good chili recipe? I will let everyone know how things turn out tomorrow after work

Again, thank you! Topamax, GMman, Fred, Wayned. You guys are some of the most generous people I know to give of your time and knowledge like you do. Thank you.

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

If florescent lights have as little as a 10% low voltage fluctuation they will flicker. Get a meter and check your voltage on a plug or at the box, not the light sockets.

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

You are welcome. You are looking for loose connections primarily. Hopefully, the meter is an analog so you can see the needle movement. A digital will show you the voltage, but you may not see the variations. You need to catch the low voltage in action to know if it is dropping. The problem may only be a few cycles and at 60 per second, they are fast ;-)) That is why I told you to watch an incandescent bulb on the circuit while the lady of the house goes around turing her hair dryer on. You will see the voltage very on an incandescent bulb very easily. If it gets brighter or pops you have a loose neutral or grounding problem. If it gets dim or even goes out, you have low voltage problem or a bad connection. One way I trouble shoot this kind of stuff is to turn the lights on, preferably incandescent. Just go around the room with something like a padded type claw hammer handle rapping on the outlets and walls near them while I keep an eye on the light from the bulb. Most of these residential problems take a few minutes to find after you have done it a few times and know what’s going on ;-))

I’ll be out of town for a few days. Hopefully you will be done when I get back :-)) Good luck.

BTW, 10% voltage drop is a lot!! The code only allows 3-5% if I remember correctly.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

You are welcome Chris, I hope it is a meter with a needle (analog) if it is find and outlet that is not on the same circuit as you florescent lights plug it in the outlet and at the same time as your likes are flickering check the needle if it moves a lot your problem is all over if it move just a small bit well only your florescent circuit is the problem.
I have 3 meters a needle one (analog), digital one and an amp. meter but for something like the problem you have I would take my needle meter. Good luck Buddy

Topamax has a good point too.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

What kind of chilli. I have good recipes for both Texas style and what we call Yankee chilli (chilli flavored soup)

-- Jimmy, Oklahoma "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear!"

baysp…..you lost or what

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

My fluorescents would dim intermittently, especially after using power tools. It turned out to be a shorted starting capacitor on a 1.5 horse motor which, when plugged in, would affect the fluorescents. It must have been raising havoc with the lines. Maybe unplug your machines, one at a time, and see if it helps?

-- If Stradivarius was alive today, he'd be using Gorilla Glue.

Lost no, The guy ask for a chili recipe I thought I would oblige him.:P

-- Jimmy, Oklahoma "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear!"

I know bayspt cant you see it was a joke you have to read from the start..sorry about that
Chris has no time to make chilli he has his hands full with his lights problem.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

I figured it out! First of all I want to wholeheartedly thank everyuone for the incredible response and great advice. I started all over from the beginning last night after reading all the posts on this thread. Turns out GMman and Topamax were right, it was simple and I made it much more complicated than it had to be. I took the front cover off of the breaker box and killed all the power to the house and then I tightened all the ground wires again and this time I pushed each individual breaker in as far as it woulg go. Lo and behold the breaker that supplied power to my shop lights was loose and the ground for the entire basement was done poorly. In fact, I had to redo the ground for the entire house. It is by my shower and the pipes are old and very corroded, like my ex-wife. Anyway, I undid the ground, cleaned it up and bared fresh copper on the wire. After I put it back in it’s place I held my breath and turned the main breaker back on and immediately went into the4 shop, turned on all the lights and then turned on my saw, then the bandsaw and finally the lathe. No flicker!!!!!! I can’t tell you what a relief it was. It was making me so pissed I didn’t even want to be in the shop.
I did find another serious problem though. The wires from the basement up are all the old cloth covered crap and in many places the insulation is coming off. I may try to snake new wire through but I have never done it so it will be a learning experience for me. Wish me luck!! oh, I oput the chili recipe question in there too to see who would read the whole post. It worked too!

-- "That Government is Best that Governs The Least."-Jefferson

Well Chris I am very glad for you and it is a good thing to replace that old wire.
Take is this way you had a good experience.

-- --<<<<<< I will not stop until I get it right. >>>>>>--

I told you youi’d be done when I got home. Looks like you posted while I was on the way :-)) Glad to hear you found it. With it beng a grounding problem, you’re lucky the flourscents were driving you nuts. That bad ground could have caused you some major damge!! It wouldn’t hurt to pull the breaker that was lose and see if the buss bar it attachs to has been damaged. Turn the power off again and pull it from the center, or turn it to the off position and use your thumb to try to push it further past off and it should pop out.

PS, I saw your question about the chili. I thought yoiu were just trying to forget all your troubles :-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.