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Need help on fixing cupboard frame to brick wall

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Forum topic by Vjeko posted 08-11-2009 07:47 PM 3200 views 0 times favorited 7 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Vjeko

135 posts in 2877 days


08-11-2009 07:47 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

Hi,
I’m doing a rather “unorthodox” build of an inbuilt cupboard (have asked a few questions
about this before but with new ideas I have new questions;) ). As the walls are
made of brick, I don’t want to use traditional cabinetry/boxes which would cover
the brick / reduce air circulation and very possibly lead to mold problems.

A very rough drawing of the 3 wall cavity (left) and frame which breaks
down the builtin (right) into sections are shown below.

Brief description of builtin construction
The builtin will be some 2,6m tall, 0,75m wide and 0,6m deep.
The builtin is basically the frame, a drawer case and 2 shelves.

Looking at the drawing on the right we have (looking from floor to ceiling):
-toe kick (a board will be attached across the width of the builtin)
-2 drawers – drawer case slides into frame and at back sits on adjustable legs/
screwed to wall/frame as needed
- shelf screwed to drawer case top (for next section above)
- 2 doors for the section for hanging clothes .
- smaller 2 door section at top eg for blankets (there is a shelf which is supported by 3 boards
screwed to the 3 walls)
Doors are eurostyle, inset at carcass level attached to the vertical members of frame

I would appreciate like help with following points:
There are tiles laid vertically on walls at floor level (cca 10mm thick) , frame is
cca 25mm thick and I want to have 50mm wide trim molding around frame(do I pad the whole frame
or parts of it with pieces of wood (eg screwed/glued) to allow trim to be nailed near the wall ?

How is it best to attach the frame to the walls ?
When using expanding foam, I guess I need small shims just to get frame plumb, trim nailed on one
side, then fill with foam and later trim foam and attach trim on other side.

If using screws , are small shims good enough or a substantial piece of wood scribed to the wall ?
Would 3 screws through each vertical member be enough (I guess the horizontal
member at ceiling level doesn’t need to be screwed to the ceiling)?

Is it better to screw the frame or use expanding foam ?

-- Vjeko Balas - Croatia


7 replies so far

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#1 posted 08-11-2009 09:49 PM

Hey Vjeko, Have not heard from you in a long time! How have you been?

You mentioned something about pics or drawings yet there are none to help your description of your problem. But I will give it a shot from what you wrote…

You want to mount a cabinet in a niche in the wall? is that right? If thats the case its like putting in a door or window frame. You are on the right track you want to put in wood shims and screws to make a mechanical fix. Or you can use the Foam, make sure that if the material is thin (say under 30 mm or so) that you secure it with some sort of brace because foam can expand with force. Well depending if you are using 1 komponent foam or 2 komponent foam. I would not think that a ceiling screw is necessary.

hopefully this is helpfull!

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Vjeko

135 posts in 2877 days


#2 posted 08-12-2009 08:45 AM

Hi Nicholas,
I’m fine thanks but as far as woodwork goes, I’m not progressing at all (at least it seems like that) as I have been mainly working on the tool side of things and haven’t made anything (I must admit the hot weather is also not helping my motivation).

Here’s the link (which was there when I posted ;) )
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/vjekob/apartment_new_builtin.jpg

I would appreciate if you could read my first mail/see the picture and indicate if there is a better way to do it. Initially I was thinking of making the frame and padding it with some cheaper wood which was scribed to the wall (screwed/glued to the frame) and then screw the frame to the wall.

Regarding screws / plastic plugs -anything special you use for hollow bricks ?

-- Vjeko Balas - Croatia

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#3 posted 08-12-2009 04:30 PM

Ok this might help, but you have to let me know or not…. it I would mount it similiar to a “futterrahmentur” nice and easy…. and since its has shelving and I am not certain how deep the built in goes, I assumed it went back all the way… if not… (if its just a frame that sits towards the front of the niche, as dipicted in the picture you posted than I assumed wrong…. but it does not change how I would mount this.)

First you need about 10 mm of space between the cabinet and the wall. I would make muntons to attach to the wall that are then about 10mm thick and attach them to the wall using wall plugs, and screws… Special… well that depends on the type of hollow bricks you have. I am guessing they are the standard type so I would use some Würth “kunststoffdübel” these are wall plugs, you might have to order them, but they have ones for hollow stones like you are probably dealing with and are not too expensive. if the worst case scenario, there is always the “chemischdübel” that is good because its foams out when you stick the plug in… but you have to ask where your local dealer is or email Würth… they are usually pretty good with customers.

You then could push in the cabinet/frame, that has a spline cut on the outside, or glued on, to accecpt a groove which will be your trim (I did not put in any measurements, but I drew it out in the pic to be 50 mm.)

wedging

You wedge in the frame from the top of the upright pieces so it does not bend inward… logical right, but sometimes in a hurry easy to forget… then adjust so its in angle and plumb and all that and screw it to the wood muntons (which I forgot to say, you can mount on the wall so that they are under the hinges, so you do not see the screws, if necessary…

the picture is of the right side, you can also do something similiar on the left, you just have to plane the edge of the moulding, instead of the back.

drawing right side

After mechanically fest you can then use the 2K PU foam to go around the frame,(between frame and wall) and wait until thats hardened out, cut away foam, as you mentioned, start to pass in with a hand plane the moulding piece, so it fits on the probably uneven wall. The moulding as you see in the pic, has a small strip glued to it to ease the process of planing away on the site to fit to the wall. When it passes along the wall then you can use a little white express glue (the one that sets up in 5 min) and maybe some quickgrip clamps or something and fix the moulding…. nice and easy, your all done, well mount the doors and drawers of course!

Any questions let me know and let me know what you think of it.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#4 posted 08-12-2009 04:43 PM

I see now looking at the drawing again you provided you do not want a cabinet that goes all the way to the back just the lower part… you could consider using the strips of wood to set shelves on and mount them horizontially, instead of vertically like I put them in the drawing.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Vjeko

135 posts in 2877 days


#5 posted 08-13-2009 10:26 AM

Hi Nicholas,
Thanks for all the info and especially the pictures !!! – they really tell the story.
You understood exactly what I’m trying to do – the frame is just at the front as my aim is not to close of air circulation / cover the walls (the room is not used during winter and is not heated too much , so I want to avoid mold problems). Yes, I was thinking of having the 2 shelves supported by pieces of wood underneath,screwed to the 3 walls.

Just a couple more questions since I’ve never done this before (don’t laugh ;) ):
(a)Not 100% clear on what you mean by “wedge” – I can only think of slotting the corner along the length of vertical and horizontal pieces and inserting a spline ??? I was initially thinking of having horizontal pieces
in dadoes in the verticals and screws through – I guess this would be strong enough without
need for wedges or anything in corners (also, as per my drawing, I will need to have the horizontal
pieces for door stops and drawer stops, so the frame has 4 horizontal pieces which will stop it from flexing) ?

(b)Regarding the muntons – I guess you do some combined scribing and shimming to the wall (depending on how convex/concave the wall is) and the frame is then made afterwards so everything fits tight ?

(c)Is it really necessary to use the screws and then foam also or can I skip
the foam if it all feels rigid enough with just the screws(eg if I make the munton almost as wide
as the frame) ? I guess the muntons can be of some cheap wood eg pine.

(d)As I explained, I don’t want to close off the builtin area/cover the walls but I have
considered making the drawer case/cabinet to hold the drawers.
There will be only two drawers using metabox metal hardware – as used in kitchens etc.), is
there a good way to mount them without a cabinet, so there would be no cabinets at all (even if it is a
bit fiddly to do) ?

-- Vjeko Balas - Croatia

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#6 posted 08-13-2009 05:55 PM

Ok, yeah, screws should do the job, the foam is just a bit more secure, I do know how heavy the door and how gently it will be closed….

You still need the wood between the frame and the wall so you can allow /adjust for the uneveness in the wall as you had pointed out already. just like on the outside, you might need to take a bit away with a hand plane, and remember the bottom with the tiles… so if you put your frame right on the wall and screw it tight, the screws will take the thin material of the frame and bend it to to the wall and you no longer have a in square frame… its just easier that my thoughts. And you could use horizontal ones and use them to support your shelves with at the same time… why not?

The muntons are of what ever cheap wood you have on hand… like you mentioned pine… is perfect.

I think your original idea of building a case to cover the drawers is a good idea and I would stick with it… because we put things in drawers to keep them in order, and among other things to keep dust and dirt off of them… If you are storing thing above the drawers and do not have a box protecting them from dust and dirt and what ever, then its going to go with gravity and fall in the top drawer… this and you loose one more surface to put stuff on inside of the cabinet.

You can more than likely mount them with out a cabinet, by just screwing muntons on the walls and attacing the drawer guides to the walls but, how certian are you that the wall is in square? not only this but before you try to mount two strips of wood on a brick wall that are parallel and have a constant distance from one another (do not toe in or out), nah… forget it, you are much quicker if you build a box to put the drawers in and call it a day. It is good idea stick with it.

I mean by wedges, wedges, little wood triangular scraps of wood, Its just a good idea if you are doing this sort of thing more often, or windows or doors absolutly necessary, to have a bucket of shims and wedges of varying sizes.

Here is a great tip though… make as many wedges and shims out of endgrain wood… not with the grain, do you know what I mean, then you can just break them off when they are too long! A great idea when mounting windows and doors and the like.

The wedges in the drawing are great to mount a frame/door/window for just temporary until you can screw it or foam it out. and since they are wedges, you can drive them as far as you need pretty much stepless, to the thickness needes, because they get wider at one end. If you pry off a door moulding more than likely you will see wedges underneath… and you will know exactly what I mean.

Ok let me know how it goes! any more questions feel free to ask!

Good luck

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Vjeko

135 posts in 2877 days


#7 posted 08-13-2009 07:14 PM

Thanks Nicholas,
I think I have enough ideas now – let’s see if I can build something ;)

BR,Vjeko

-- Vjeko Balas - Croatia

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