Is the use of CNC machines killing the value of hand carved pieces?

I was at a machinery expo on Friday and saw a dinosaur made on a CNC.
I have an overhead router that can be made into a CNC but I think that I would rather have some hands on with the machine and not let a computer run the whole show.

-- Drink once, cut twice. New website up.... lazylarrywoodworks.com.au

CNC,s are simply designed for mass production and making money, lots and lots and lots of money. They spit things out 24/7 and every one is the same, perfect, bland and soulless. The hand carver hasn,t been “in the market place” in western countrys for years anyway since multi head copy carvers came in. It,s only in countries like the one I live in that the hand carving tradition lives on, and long may it remain so. And you must also remember you need to make a lot of carvings to get back your cash from the purchase of the machine before you start making a profit. In Australia I could turn out between 400 and 1000 souviner boomerangs a day, all of them perfectly the same and all of them needed finishing on an inflatable bag sander, it did my head in doing this mind numbing work 6 days a week for almost a year. My personel opinion of CNC,s , Haveing been a made a slave to a couple of these soul destroying monsters for a number of years, I wouldn,t cross the street to spit on one if it was on fire!!!!!!!!!! Storm the factories and burn them all!!!!!!! **

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

I guess it depends on the buyer. If they value hand-craftsmanship then the price might actually go higher. I do admit that I’m a geek and that I would love to have a CNC machine to make several things in my home. However, I do understand the value, time, and effort that it takes a hand carver. In my own opinion, I would pay much more for a hand carved piece than what a CNC machine could do. In fact, that was why my wife and I picked out our dining room set because it was hand carved. The imperfections and the slight (very slight) differences along the legs and edges made it have more value in our eyes.

the only reason i buy tools ,
is to enhance and expand my w.w. abilitys .
most of my tools just sit and wait for me to use them ,
and like a microwave ,
its nice to reheat a cup of coffee ,
but it’s not as good as fresh !

-- david ,new mexico ,allheart

I have a CNC router but I never use it to make carvings as I consider hand carving a wonderful skill that should not be cheapened by a machine, carving is art.
I use my CNC router to make signs – the machine can engrave wood, copper and any other kind of metal using nice fonts found on the computer’s list. I also use it to cut simple decorative motifs or initials to enhance patio furniture.
True craftsmanship comes from within craftsman, NOT from a machine! I agree with cpt_hammer that any slight “blemishes” in any hand carved item clearly defines it as unique and should be viewd that way. CNC router “engraving” is ok for certain things but where pure art and craftmanship is involved then pay homage to the craftsman and treasure his one of a kind item.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

The problem is that with the improvements in technology and the ability to mass produce things, the quality people have expected has considerably dropped. Not to mention the fact that people don’t keep things around like they used to. I mean, people are selling antiques at garage sales. That’s how much they care. So people aren’t interested in an item because how it was made, who made it, etc. They are interested in how the piece will look with their decor, and the price. Being an artist is becoming more of a hobby. If you sell things you hand carved chances are you aren’t making much money, that is unless you have written a few books, and are a well known carver. Only then do people buy your product because of who you are, even though Joe down the street can carve the same thing from his garage. Nobody knows he exists.

Carvers aren’t extinct at all. The demand for technology exceeds the demand of the goods by far, and so with so much technology the little lone carver is forgotten. Take the machines away and out of the woodwork will come thousands of carvers. Prices for hand carvings will go down, and so will unemployment. People will be buying Joes carvings because they can afford the hand carved headboard.

The industrial revolution was to meet the demand of the people. Jobs then were plenty. There was the need for that technology. The demand was met long ago. We no longer need the fast paced work of a machine to meet the demand. That’s why so many shops are closing. Johnny with his CNC machine is producing 10 kitchens a month. Joe is barely feeding his family because Johnny’s prices are a lot lower. But his work sucks because he just wants to produce and make money. Joe doesn’t want to produce crap quality, or anything he wouldn’t put in his own home. But that’s how he feels, not his prospective clients. They want to save a buck. After having Johnny and his machine do a crappy job in no time, they call Joe with some complaints wanting things fixed. Johnny’s customer service went down the crapper because he’s to busy to deal with clients anymore. Joe makes the decision to reject the clients plea. They shouldn’t have been cheap to begin with, and purchased the product from someone who cares.

Having the machine changes the mindset of the workers. They now believe in speed over quality. There is no longer the care involved with producing a fine quality piece. Sure you can make nice signs and what not. That’s nice, especially since most people don’t pay attention to that sort of work. They walk right by it. But a table? The bed you sleep in? The entertainment center you stare at while watching TV? I’m glad I get to make all my own stuff. I get to have very nice things. And I’m proud to offer my service to others. I believe it’s above most shops, because I’m not in a hurry to make a buck. Everything I make comes from the love I have for the work, the labor. I believe in Labor. I believe in skill. This world is getting to the point to where everyone needs a computer to live, to work for them. I solute the countries who still pick up a chisel and mallet and produce fine carvings and woodwork. If you put a board in or on a machine, you’re not a woodworker in my eyes. You’re a machinist, a programmer, and maybe an assembler. I’m sure those people are hired out though. To much work there.
Way to go CNC enthusiasts for pushing the country to a higher level of crap, laziness, and unemployment. Maybe now the universities can lower their prices so we can go to programming school to learn to be woodworkers.

I answered this question based off of it being geared towards professionals, people who sell the work. If you are hobbiest who buys a CNC machine then you want to be a woodworker without the work. It’s like buying a classic car to restore and taking it to Boyd Covington. You get to design and make sure it’s done to your standard but something else does the work. All the praise you’ll get is well worth it though right. Gives you a tingle inside. Yippee

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Computers have all but killed anytype of real handwork skill. Not only woodworking, but photography, welding etc….Yes its increased production, but at a price. Everyone looks for the cheap and easy and at the same time they are losing respect for the real thing. We are now a country whos people have gone into debt to be surrounded with things that will expire before they are paid off. I can only hope people wake up and realize buying quality not quantity is the smarter way to spend money.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

They aren’t going away, like it on not. I guess about the only thing I would add to the opinions already posted is machine carved projects being posted without giving the machine credit is very unethical.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

My son had the priveledge of meeting Chris Pye last week. Take a look at some of his hand carvings. http://chrispye-woodcarving.com/gallery/g_index.html I’d rather see this than prduction cnc work.

-- Ron, Michigan

I ws just thinking the same arguments could be made for hand tools vs. power tools. As an example, look at the H.O. Studley Tool Chest Garyk posted the other day:-)) http://lumberjocks.com/topics/8966

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Machine carving has been around for a long long time.Albeit not cnc. I don’t thing hand carving will ever be beaten .Hand work is always a little bit better “when done properly” .OK you might argue dovetails are nicer ,better made etc, on a machine but,A well made hand dovetail will always be the real thing so CNC has it’s place in keeping costs to a realistic place in the market but it’s not thereal thing. Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

I want to clarify this real quick. A CNC machine is NOT compared to power tools. A CNC Machine functions on its own. You press a button and watch it do the work. Granted you have to load and unload the machine. Power tools have an opperator. You have to physically push the material through a table saw. You have to manually hold a router to do it’s work, or feed the material through a shaper. ETC. This takes skill as well as safety. There is room for humor error. I don’t understand how or why people insist that a CNC machine has the same regards as power tools. I know there is room for error by pressing the wrong button, but the machine isn’t going to shoot the piece through your forehead as a result.
I’ll stick with the LABOR, and the skill required to do such work, as well as the jobs created. Bottom line is people should do the work, not machines. Welcome to planet Wal-E where we can all sit on a chair and let the world work around us. Maybe we can all die of obesity too.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Actually working a CNC machine is quite a difficult task not as simple as you say sorry your wrong. Programming it can be quite a challenge. All those Cartesian co-ordinates X Y Z It’s not for the faint hearted.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

It may be a difficult task but that’s a desk job. We are discussing physical labor, such as carving and woodworking. Being an engineer is a challenge too and takes brains. But it doesn’t have anything to do with physical skill either.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I think some people are overestimating the abilities of a CNC machine for carving work, it’s not a miracle machine that makes carving when you press a button

Those CNC dinasaurs you see at shows, that probably took them hours to make that on their machine. If it’s done relatively quick, feel it, it’s got chatter marks all over it.

With all that CNC for carving is just better for production volume only, and that’s not its strength either. Probably good for paint grade stuff, but hand carved wood still looks better at the end of the day. Plus I’ve seen a lot of off-shore mid-range furniture that are hand carved, looks decent so how are we going to compete with hand carving sweatshops in Asia? Therefore CNC is not going to kill value of hand carved pieces, actually I think hand carved work made in America needs to be a niche product that demand a premium price. There should be a movement to teach people how to appreciate carving of its artistic value.

I would not denounce CNC technology however, imagine how much lower the level of technology and quality without it. Imagine how much work it’d be to punch hole in a sheet of metal without it, and how accurate that would be. Actually just think, how much would a car be nowadays without CNC technology.

-- Ed

There are commercialy available carvers with patterns that are simply stick in the work piece, stick in the pattern and push the button. I remember at least one project posted to LJ which was a carbon copy of a pattern with a machine I saw advertised.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Your right Alistair. One wrong number on the X Y or Z can send a very expensive piece of tooling into the machine rather than the workpiece, i,ve done it. And programming is a skill that is very much a part of modern woodworking. As such I have no problem with it being taught alongside dovetailing and other skills as they do in Europe. But only the programer needs skill, the operator can be a trained monkey. As Topamax said these machines are here to stay. And I don,t believe machines themselves lower quality, it,s the abuse of machines that lowers quality. And Kolwdwrkr when you say programers and assemblers your right, there are no cabinetmakers in production shops now, just button pushers who don,t give a damn and your analogy about classic car restorers is bang on.

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

All American woodworkers have been pushed out of the market place…along with the farmers and shop keepers and restaurateurs and gas station owners.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Redshirt. The guys I know in the carving shops here ain,t sweating, and they enjoy their work way more than the production line labourers in the western “sweatshops ” that I,ve seen. And Dennis, for gods sake smile! the suns still shinning and you,ve still got your health :-) one day you,ll look back on these days and laugh.

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

Aw I’m smiling…I didn’t get deep into debt to open my shop, so I’ll just bide my time. I do feel sorry for the small guys who did. I think it is very dangerous to base the world economy upon larger and larger corporations. I’m a big fan of economic diversity.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

The people of America have spoken. They want cheap stuff. American Hand-carved stuff isn’t going to be cheap, so, people aren’t going to buy it like they’ll buy foreign made stuff.

Then ask yourself…..

“what’s the difference between a completely hand carved item and an item that was roughed out by machine, then dressed by hand?”

It’s simply the amount of labor that went into it. Is it worth more because someone spent 3 days hand carving something as opposed to someone spending 3 hours? The finished surface would be exactly the same. The last thing that touched it would be a hand powered chisel (or sandpaper.) So is it really worth more because someone got there all by hand? You would have exactly the same item. Yet would you pay more….just because it’s American or completely hand made?

Most people wouldn’t ‘cause that’s the way most people are and that’s the way the economy works.

I’m not sayin’ good or bad…I’m just saying that’s the way things work. It’s kinda the same arguement that if the old timers had a dovetailing machine they woulda said screw this hand stuff, let’s use the machine. They dovetailed by hand because of low tech glue and had there been a better method they would’ve used it.

For me that’s the “I’m not all spiritual about woodworking” in me. I do it because I enjoy it. And when I don’t I quit. If I couldn’t make a living at it, I would do it for fun and get a paying job to pay the bills. No romance about it here. As much as people like to have a romance about “the ways things used to be”.....well, things weren’t that romantic.

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist

Interesting dichotomy I’m seeing in this thread. There’s so much I could say but it would probably be inappropriate.

Here’s a web site of someone who could, perhaps, be considered a competitor.

Nice work but not much versatility in a every plane functions as a smooth plane world.

This link is formy company's web site .

There’s actually more hand work in the least expensive of our planes than in any of those on the other site. Hand tool woodworking requires some versatility in planes. Woodworking hasn’t really changed much in the last few hundred years when it comes to making one-off or custom items. For many operations, hand tools are still the most efficient way to produce one-off pieces. The following is a list of planes necessary for this kind of work from Richard Neve’s 1736 Builder’s Dictionary:

The wood is the same as in 1736 and so are the tasks. A smooth plane alone just won’t do it. I think I can present plenty of evidence that this is just about the time when the very best planes ever made were being made in and around London. For the less than the price of a single plane from the first web site, we can supply everything on Neve’s list and those planes will be very much the same as those Neve was familiar with. One just has to be patient, we’re way behind and have even removed a lot from our web site because we’re so far behnd. We don’t have CNC and our products are mostly hand made at a workbench. We survive by lack of expense but still often work to increments of 0.001” by hand.

I just thought I’d post to give people an idea of why I’m amused by this thread. I see a real disconnect between what is said about CNC produced wood products and CNC produced woodworking tools.

lwllms, if you need someone to test your planes I’ll gladly give you a mailing address and do the tests for free ;-). All I ask is to get one of each kind available and we have a deal. LOL

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I don’t have any experience with using a CNC router, but as I understand them, or at least the commercially produced ones, they can’t undercut a carving at all to give it a greater sense of depth can they? Everything I’ve seen so far lacked that, which is what sets apart a real hand-carved piece to me. That’s what carvers should emphasize I guess if they want to push their product to someone as being better than what a CNC machine can do.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

CNC machines have their place in woodworking. Will they do everything? For now, NO. As for carving, just take a look at the work of one of our own LJ’s accomplishments. Dilo Marcio Fernandino I do not think there will be a CNC machine capable of this type of intricate work. To make money, maybe a CNC is the correct path to take. However, there will always be a few talented craftsmen who will carry on the carving by hand tradition. I have seen some great carvers through the years. They can do things with a chisel that is just amazing. I accept both ways of carving. Some carvers will use the CNC to remove the bulk of the project and then do the final carving. The machine is actually saving the carvers valuable time and allows them to concentrate on the details and quality of the piece. John

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

There will ALWAYS be those who will not pay for quality…but want the looks of quality. Nothing drives me more nuts than when a person looks through one of my catalogs…goes …”OOOOOOO…aaaahhhhh…very pretty…How much for something like this ?” When I give them a price…they choke and always say something like “I can buy something like this at the furniture store for a fraction of that !!” To which I always say..”Then go buy it !!” My card says “Heirloom quality, One-of-a-kind pieces of HANDMADE Furniture.

But so far I have been VERY lucky with my new business…..there is allot of “Old money” people who live here…and when they see my work and carvings…and they hear the words “Handmade” and “Custom One-of-a-kind”...their eyes brighten up and I know I have a new customer.

SO to answer your question….many will never pay for the days/weeks/months it may take to make a piece of handmade one-of-a-kind piece of work….they will just go to the local furniture store and buy something mass produced off of the assembly line. And in a few years the will buy another, and another, and another.

BUT…there will always be those “Few”...that want something that is “Custom” and “One-Of-A-Kind”...maybe to show off to their friends…maybe to pass on to their children and Grandchildren…Or maybe just because they can afford it and want something that is quality made, unique and will out last them.

Even if I could not or can not make a living off of this (Business is still new in a way…but growing by the day), and had to stick with my remodeling business….I would still do it in my spare time and give the pieces away as gifts to family and friends.

Other than the joy my family brings me….nothing makes me more happy than just working in the shop with wood. Just something about starting off with some rough lumber laying in my floor…and ending up with something that may be a treasured family heirloom, passed down from parent to child for generations (Or sold in the next garage sale,lol) just makes me smile…almost like I am creating something…almost like I am giving life to the piece hiding in the wood.

So…is the CNC killing off the woodcarver or woodworker ????...not in my life time anyways !!

-- Don S.E. OK

I would have to disagree.

Consider this…When the table saw was invented there were those that probably considered it the death of woodworking instead of freeing one from the tedious drudgery part of the craft enhancing speed and accuracy so one could focus on the more enjoyable aspects of the craft.

It’s the same with CNC. In the old days the roughing out would have been done by apprentices. Do you think Grinling Gibbons did all that work by hinself or Henry Moore? Of course not! CNC carvings still need to be touched up with handwork. And not to forget that even with CAD and scanning images it won’t replace the Artists sense of design.

While the CNC is well suited to production of 24/7 it’s just as applicable to one off items as well. I’ve had various steel parts of small quantities done by a local laser CNC.

The CNC, like the table saw, can open up more possibilities and should not be considered bad.

-- Whatever!

CNC is a tool. The machine can only do so much. I worked as a Timberframer and we had a Hundegger CNC machine that did do quite a bit of the work but there were always mortise corners and housing corners to square out, and things to fix that the Hun could not get. There were even times it would not do a mortise. Some people care. Some don’t. Everything has it’s place. We need to educate consumers about what they are buying, and if they value cheap over quality, you will never change their mind. You get what you pay for.

-- I don't know what God is. But I know what He ISN'T - Jordan Maxwell

Most CNC work on an X Y and Z axis…......few of those do any carving, if any. Spend another 1 or 2 hundred thousand and the CNC works on X Y Z and A and B axis…..........they carve things out in a hurry. Spend another 1 or 2 hundred thousand and they come with a robotic duplicator…............a carving master knocks out an original and the machine traces it….............very, very cool tool.

North America could replace the CNC if employees, employeers wanted to work for 2 bucks a day?///.......aint gonna happen so they are here to stay.

I know quite a few associates who have CNC in their shops. Some make money fromthe CNC but most seem to be on a “make work” program to keep the machine busy rather then just “Get er done on a table saw”. ......ie….......

1. I watched a shop with CNC make an MDF panel to recieve a built in ovens and warming drawers and one guy couldnt make it fit the cabinet.

2. An hour later, three guys couldnt make it fit the cabinet

3. Three hours later one of the three guys took the panel to the office for the CNC programmer to adjust the program so that the CNC could cut out the new panel

4. An hour later the programmer came out, wrestled another sheet of MDF from stock, placed it on the CNC and cut another panel, adjust program…..repeat….........finally it SORTA fits but what no one realizes is that routing out a panel with CNC or a router is that the heat generated from the cutting action can cause the MDF to warp…........so they did it all again.

5. Why didnt they just grab another sheet, cut it out on the saw, cut the holes out on the saqw or with a jig saw…........DONE in 30 minutes.

I still get paid for my hand carvings and they dont come cheap!!!!

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I agree with what many of you have said and at the risk of beating a dead horse, reiterate what many of you have said. First you fine carvers out there needn’t be concerned with competing against a machine. I believe discriminating people know and appreciate the difference and will pay for it. If you haven’t used a CNC, It might seem like they are magical. They are not. As Roman just illustrated, for custom work they can be very awkward and even counter productive; particularly for custom work. As many people have said before also, they come into their element for producing hundreds of copies of the same thing. They cannot read grain, do not know when they are climb cutting, or are about to blow out a big chunk of wood. For most of what I have read about here, they really aren’t that well suited for. (custom, one of a kind, fine 3d sculptural carving). As stated before, unless you have a 6 axis robot, cnc routers only work in what is considered 2.5d, where they cannot undercut – basically limited to only the ability to plunge straight down. They are good at repetitive mundane tasks like the example earlier – roughing out mortices, or drilling hundreds of holes in a bunch of cribbage boards. Does anyone really want to do that by hand? (ok, some of you do, I don’t have the time or patience) It is a tool, has its uses. To each his own. Roy Underhill, I am pretty confident doesn’t appreciate the Norm Abrams approach to woodworking either… (that is to say – the approach most of us use i.e. store bought lumber and power tools- lots of them) Ultimately we all have our own approach to and definition of what it is to be a woodworker.

-- A thing of beauty is a joy forever...

I know one thing I am always stunned at some of the first rate work still coming,repeat still coming out of USA There are still a loot of very talented people among your country and im Europe too.You guys rock! “literally translated for us oldies” that means you do great work LOL .Somy 2 cents ,and keep going .I have a lot to learn from My American Brothers and Sisters too god Bles America enuff said L O L .Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

one thing i find is not that the value has diminished but that the want to do it has diminished. i would rather spend all day carving something but thier are plenty of people out there who would rather buy a CNC and have it spit stuff out. the drive to go out and make something has been diminished by peoples abilities to buy something or be able to make it with minimal effort. it just kind of encourages laziness in people.

No, that is what pantograph duplicators are for.

-- A thing of beauty is a joy forever...

YES – they are
NO – they are not.

So you think – you put a tree on a CNC machine and push a button – then a few minutes later out pops a replicated hand carved thing that is gonna put hand carvers out on the street? I don’t think so!

I consider myself to be lucky enough to own a small CNC machine.

I consider myself to be a hobby woodworker.

I love working with wood.

I use table saw – and all sorts of power tools.

I use hand plane and all sorts of hand tools.

I use CAD – and CAM – and computer. Even to be here and type this.

I also use my CNC machine.

When I use my CNC machine – it is PART of the process – never the whole process. Not cause I feel it wrong to do an entire project in CNC – but – because the CNC just does NOT do everything.

Face it – CNC – and computers are here to stay.

It is a fun part on woodworking.

I do sell stuff – some CNC – some not. I can assure you this. CNC is NOT going to replace hand carved.

Ditto CherryWood. We sell a lot of CNC tooling. Never been asked for tools for Carving….Never.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com