Staining Maple is crushing my spirits

I always sand through 4 steps, 120,150,180,220. Then I apply my stain by wiping or brushing. I never spray a stain. I do a small area and then wipe it off, applying more stain if it needs to be darker. I then let the stain thoroughly dry before applying a finish. I will spray a sealer and finish coat with the sprayer.

-- Jerry--A man can never have enough tools or clamps

I stopped at 150 b/c I was told that the finer grits would close the pores and make it harder to accept the stain.
I tried adding more coats but the color will not get any richer for me. My wife really wants it in a nice espresso brown, but I cannot get it there with my current efforts.

150 is fine for paint but we always sand to 220 in our workplace. The stain will be more even when you sand to these grits. Sometimes we will stop at 180 but most of the time we go to 220. Did you try to satin it darker while the stain was still wet?

-- Jerry--A man can never have enough tools or clamps

I sanded to 220 the first time and some of the areas didn’t take the stain at all and stayed very blonde, then a guy at a local shop here said that was too fine and suggested the 150.

I stained it with multiple coats according to the directions (4 – 6hrs set up before 2nd coat). I tried to load it up and let it sit then wipe it clean, but it won’t take the stain (minwax oil based red mahogany, btw)

thanks for the help. Your projects are awesome.

I found this article and he says to follow this format:
1. Use a dye to establish a uniform base color
2. Stain and/or glaze to build the color
3. Tone/Shade to add color and depth as well as improve uniformity

The results on the page look really good, I just was trying to avoid buying a sprayer if at all possible.

150 is also fine if your sanding softer hardwoods that tend to stain uniformly (walnut, mahogony). Others such as birch, maple, and cherry often look best with a final 220. then put a 1:1 mixture of solvent to sealer depending on your finish. wipe on wipe off, let it dry good. if the 220 is really killing the color try 180 grit. I know tricks where you tone the project first to make a uniform color then stain.

Try making a step board. this way you can sample different techniques without harming the actual piece.

-- Woodshop supplies at bulk discounts. www.getneds.com

Should I just go ahead and buy a sprayer and use the method of dye, stain, tone? as suggested above? I really don’t want to keep sanding this stuff off. Also, any suggestions on dyes or the cheapest place to get them?

thanks

maybe you should step away from the minwax. not really the best product. and since you dont have a spray gun i would say that you would be best using a gell stain. check out general finishes and bartley. the gell stain is made to sit on top instead of soak in so it wont really blotch. waterbased stains will do that same but they dry fast and should really be sprayed. i know that general finishes has an espresso gel stain and then just follow up with some of general finishes gel topcoat. dont use a regular poly because regular poly wants to be absorbed and the gel stain will seal the surface.

I sand my maple projects to 220 and use Sherwin Williams BAC wiping stains. I do not experience the blotchy effect that Minwax creates.

You can see the effect in my most recent project which includes a curly maple table. No blotchy effect here.

The stain is wiped on with a rag. The finish is a catalyzed varnish but I also use pre-cat lacquers to the same effect.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Keep practicing, you’ll find a method that works for you.

Teejay – I feel your pain. I did my first project recently with hardwood (an oak frame where the inside is hard maple – I have to post the project). I read everything I could about finishing maple because I was pretty comfortable with oak having refinished many pieces of furniture already.

I sanded the pieces of maple down to 320. I used a wood conditioner (minwax prestain wood conditioner) and let it rest for 24 hours. Then I tried a gel stain (brand was varathane – red mahogany also because I love that stain), carefully wiped on with a rag. BAM!!! Blotchies. I was so disappointed with myself.

Todd, is Sherwin Williams BAC wiping stain a water or oil based stain? I looked it up on the web but the product info is not clear. Did you pre-treat your pieces or go to stain directly? Your finishing looks beautiful to me. I want to give that a shot.

Ummm. I just read that Sherwin-Williams are makers of Min-Wax. I assume they are just another grade by the same company?

OOH Boy…this is what I fear will happen to me on my 1st furniture project that I am engaged in. I am building a table out of red oak. The design and build is going well, but I DREAD the finishing portion of it. I have a HVLP sprayer that I bought for my project, but am afraid of the procedures to use. I hope your project turns out for you. I will be keeping an eye on your progress. PLEASE share what you learn. Good Luck

-- Randy, Allen Texas

Success in a project is arrived at in equal parts of skills, equipment, and products. The sprayer will not help in this situation unless you are using it in toning.

One of my first recommendations is to stop using Minwax. I have to make money so I use the Sherwin BAC wiping stain. It is available to anybody not just the pros.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

So if I go with the Sherwin Williams wiping stains what should I use as a finish? I’m going for a darker espresso color so I was unsure if the stain alone will get it dark enough as some parts of the maple refuse to accept the stain, thats why I was considering doing some dye first.

Thanks for all the help. Once I get it figured out I will put some pictures up.

Dye can turn out blotchy as well as the stain. If stain takes unevenly in the wood, so can dye.

They (Sherwin) will have a color that you can use and they will make a quart or gallon of whatever you need. The real point here has less to do with brand and more to do with home grade products compared to pro-grade products. I use both Sherwin and ML Campbell finishes. They are formulated to perform and make me money as a professional. But these products are available to everyone.

I use my last table as an example because I used the BAC black walnut stain on it and it took the stain just fine. What you have to understand is that these stains behave and perform differently than Minwax or Behr.

After staining, I seal it with the finish. Now I can see the color that I have because the finish makes the grain and stain color “pop.” If I want it darker I start toning. I add dye to a very thinned down version of the finish. When I spray the toner mix it dries almost immediately because it is so thin. I mix less than a quart if I need to tone the finish, that always seems to get me done. Toning goes fast and is easy.

What I am doing now is adding layers of color until I reach the desired shade. It will not obscure the grain, this adds color but is still transparent enough to see the grain.

Once the color is achieved, I put an appropriate amount of clear topcoat on.

After the final coat, I use a worn out soft sanding sponge and sand it out. The term sanding is used loosely here because I am not really scratching the surface. Then I buff it with a soft rag, turning and shaking it out frequently. For this final buffing I am really just getting off any dry spray and a rag alone usually does the trick.

I do not use wax or anything else on the finish. It is good to go and will last for years. Even on my older projects where I used polyurethane I have never used anything else to finish it off. The film finish is the final treatment. Wax is a good compliment to shellac because shellac does not have the durability that many other finishes have.

What I really like about lacquers is that I can apply 3 coats in 60 to 90 minutes. With BAC wiping stains they can be topcoated in 30 to 40 minutes. Minwax requires 24 hours to dry before topcoating. I approach this from a business production viewpoint. But if you have a job and are burning your evenings and weekends on these projects, you really need to be using them to save your time. It is not like they are prohibitively expensive.

With these fast dry times you have less open time on the finish and you will experience less contaminates in the finish. You do not need a hermetically sealed room.

Another great benefit of lacquers is that they are very repairable because each coat burns or melts into the previous layers to create the bond.

This also means that the only thing that you should do to care for your furniture is to wipe it with a damp cloth. You want to keep from contaminating the surface with polishes, waxes, or silicones. These will not allow you to easily repair the finish.

I made this mahogany table and after 4 years I took it in the shop and did some repairs on the scratches and put another coat of finish on it and it looked like the day that I made it. This was possible because we did not contaminate the surface. We only use a damp rag to dust our furniture.

Keep it simple.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Todd, you can’t repair poly that way?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Teejay, I am making some built-ins out of maple and I’ve got a staining ritual that’s been working out pretty well. See this blog post (and others)
http://lumberjocks.com/BethMartin/blog/8783

Well, actually the server that I have the pictures on is down for this evening, but it will be back soon! But you can at least read what I’ve been going through.

You really need to chuck the minwax and get a good quality gel stain, basically. I’ve been using General Finishes gel stain in Java and then using their Gel Topcoat. I LOVE IT.

-- Beth

Thanks to everyone for all the help.

I think it will be easiest for me to go with the suggestions Todd made and use the Sherwin Williams products b/c they have a store 2 miles away. I have to drive an hour to get to a woodcraft for the other stains.

I will let you know how this goes. Does SW offer dyes as well? (I’m thinking I will need them to add some toner)

Thank you! This is a great site

Sherwin does offer dyes as you can see in the picture here.

What may take you back is the price. For a quart it will run you about $95. The cost per ounce is way more effective when compared to Transtint Dyes at $18.50 for 2 oz. but it may be more than you want to invest in the dye.

If there is a Sherwin close by there is probably a competitor’s store in the area as well that is closer than the woodworking store.

Most woodworkers do not realize that the “pro” paint stores carry a very broad range of products that would be good for woodworkers to use. This is where the pro cabinet and millwork shops get all of their finish supplies. These are high performance products that are designed to work and help the shops make money. The performance is not just in the durability but also in the application.

These companies simply choose not to market their products to the woodworking group so many do not know that it exists nor do they realize how well they perform. The goal is to create a great look for less work.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Todd, you are right about the price. That is certainly higher than I want to spend, especially since this is for 1 specific project and I have no idea when I would need the dye again (I really enjoy building but I have space, budget constraints). Maybe I will order some Transtint, I found it for 13$ and use the wiping stains from Sherwin that you suggested. That may be the most economical route for me.

I want a nice satin finish, I had been using MINWAX poly. I’m sure there are better options available at SW, what do you suggest?

I apologize for all the questions, I am new at this stuff. Incidentally, my fear with this furniture was that I would ruin it with the stain. I never realized what an art coloring the wood was, I won’t make the same mistakes again, I promise.

Teejay, I am feeding off all your questions and the answers that are being posted. This is extremely helpful stuff. If I am experiencing this, I can only imagine there are many many other amateurs out there who need this helpful advice.

mt, I’m glad my pain and suffering is helping you avoid such misery ;). I never knew how complicated the world of staining could be. I suppose I should have.

I had this terrible sinking feeling throughout the entire build that the finish would be the death of me (at the hands of my wife upon seeing the eyesore I created). She has been much more forgiving than me though. But this finishing has been very upsetting.

Mohawk has a new line of waterborne dyes and stain base that we have been playing with. We just did an oak desk that had been giving us blotchy problems with gel stains- with the Mohawk products, we got a beautifully even stain that was easy to apply.

-- The days are long and the years are short...

One of the things that I am trying to do is to get everyone to understand that it does not need to be so difficult.

My success is due to 3 things; my skill, my tools, and equally important are the products that I use.

I let the products do a lot of the work for me. I don’t have trouble with the blotching because of the products that I use (yes, I also sanded to a finer grit than you did.) I achieve a great finish with less work because of these products.

I will admit that in the tool category a sprayer will help if you want a nice finish. I am curious as to what sprayer you plan on buying for $80? I would be cautious about throwing away money on a cheap sprayer that will frustrate you, definitely use the LJ community for feedback on a particular sprayer before you buy.

At my Sherwin location in Billings, MT they rent sprayers and it may be a good way to try something but I am sure that it will cost you about $50. But it may be a cost effective way to check into spray systems and understand them.

I use a pressure pot ($650) and I can also use my airless sprayer ($750) with a fine finish tip. These may be out of your price range for purchase, but not out of range to rent. You might have to buy a fluid hose to spray only finish through. I have two hoses for each of my sprayers, one for paints and one for clear finishes.

The gravity feed sprayers that Lowe’s and Home Depot carry do not spray a wide enough wet band to get a good finish on the wider projects with lacquer but will work with oil based and water based finishes. (This is based on personal experience.)

I have 4 spray guns:

1) A siphon feed gun – rarely used, does not spray that great, good for stains and toning only, unreliable for a good finish
2) A gravity feed gun – used for toning and occasionally narrow finish pieces, does not spray a wide enough band for furniture and doors
3) A pressure pot – this is my money maker
4) And an airless sprayer – used less than the pressure pot because of clean-up time

I found that before I invested in a good sprayer I struggled quite a bit to get good results. The best way to achieve consistently good results was to use a wipe-on poly. It takes more coats and time but you can’t hardly screw it up.

I will answer more questions later but I have to go meet a client now.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Hope your meeting went well. I really appreciate the time and advice.

I was told to go get “a cheap sprayer from Lowes” and use a large compressor to avoid constant refills by the same guy that told me that I sanded it too fine when I went to 220 and said I need to resand to 150.

I was getting a lot of conflicting advice so thats why I ended up here.

Hope your meeting went well. I really appreciate the time and advice.

I was told to go get “a cheap sprayer from Lowes” and use a large compressor to avoid constant refills by the same guy that told me that I sanded it too fine when I went to 220 and said I need to resand to 150.

I was getting a lot of conflicting advice so thats why I ended up here.

teejay listen to Todd Clippinger’s advice he’s giving you good stuff!!!

-- Only the Shadow knows....................

Is anything making sense?
Or are you more confused than ever?

The Sherwood Classic line is good too. It has a 2 hour dry time before top coating.

This stain behaves better than the Minwax line. Until you use it is difficult to understand.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

It is making sense, I”m less confused and more overwhelmed than before. Which is a bittersweet place to be. Now I have all this info available to me with constraints on implementing it. such is life, I suppose.

I trust that you are right about the SW stuff, but budget constraints do exist for me. I think I will go with the BAC wiping stains that were suggested for the crib with some sort of non toxic finish. Any suggestions?

Also, my local supply shop carries Bartley Gel Finishes/stains, Solar Lux dyes, and Behlen finishes. Has anyone used those? any thoughts on them?

bartley gel finishs are very good. giving those a try would work to.

Yeah, I know what you are talking about. I remember being where you are.
It amazes me where I am now, how casual finishing is to me and how nice the results are.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

This post has encouraged me to experiment! I have been making maple shelves and trying different techniques based on the above. Now I understand the maple blotch problem. My lesson learned is I need to spend a LOT more time and care when sanding. My favorite result so far is with three coats of cut down super blonde shellac 3X (coat, wait 30 mins, sand with steel wool) then wait overnight. Then rub on some red mahogany gel stain. It give a nice reddish tint to the wood but keeps it natural looking. Practice, practice, practice. So much thanks to everyone here who took the time to elaborate what they do. It’s SO helpful.

Teejay – I was exactly where you are/were, trying to get a uniform stain on maple, with the added complication of maple hardwood and maple ply in the same piece
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/17344
I sanded everything to 220 (except the exposed endgrain on the drawers which I sanded to 320). I used Minwax pre-treatment (2x applications spaced by 6 hours) and Minwax cherry stain(3 coats spaced by 4 hours). I think the stain turned out OK, but you can see blotching on the drawers. This thread has convinced my to try the SW wiping stains so that I can avoid the drying time of the pre-treatment the next time I use maple in a piece.

-- A bad craftsmen blames his cheap #$%ing tools

JoeinDE – I am totally sold on dewaxed shellac for maple due to this thread. I tried the pre-treatment wood conditioner also in other tests, but the shellac is definitely the winner.

I used Minwax Red Mahogany (225) for a couple of projects with maple and got acceptable results. Not particularly text book approach but it worked.

For example:
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/12851.

Finish is much more even than the up close flash shot would appear.

I sanded to 180
Used shop rags to apply the oil based stain
Flooded surface (to the point where it almost began to puddle), let sit for 10 min, and wipe before surface became tacky or dry
Sanded with 320 to knock off dust nibs
Repeat for 2 more coats.

If I am still unhappy, I will seal with dewaxed Shellac and use a gel stain to even the final color but I have only ever had to do that once.

I do not think that Minwax is that bad of a product. I think people get hung up because they use the polyshades stuff which is not designed (as stated on the label) to be applied across large surfaces.

I bought a C-H HVLP sprayer once to deal with the exact same problem. Cheap HVLP sprayers are not worth it as the results are too inconsistent. And if you don’t have a dedicated spray room, I don’t think they are worth the room prep and clean up effort.

My two cents.

-- Shawn, I ask in order to learn

Sand to 220. I go 120, 180, 220. Then use pre-stain conditioner, then make sure you stain (with a quality stain) within thirty minutes of using it. Sherwin Williams may own Minwax, but there is a pro-grade Sherwin Williams stain you can purchase at any of there large stores or there chemical stores. They are very good. I typically try to stick with the good Sherwin Williams or ML Campbell. The key to uniform color is practice. You must use the same method of wiping, overlap, and wiping the stain off. If there is any end grain that is exposed sand that a step higher (so 320 or 400) because end grain will come out darker.

I would use a scrap piece and practice on it. To me, staining is the hardest part of woodworking, and I in no way pretend I am even ok at it. All I can do is make the wood look different than I did before staining :)

I am not sure how much I can stress sanding properly, especially on a wood like maple. The only thing I ever use a spray gun for is sealer and lacquers.

Behlen Solar Lux and pigment stains are fantastic, pro-grade products. They are essentially retail packages of Mohawk’s products sold via professional channels.

Solar Lux should provide the same results as Todd’s SW test board above. I don’t wash coat or use conditioners before a dye, it goes straight on the sanded to 180-220 maple. With darker dyes, I either spray it or wipe it on. To prevent lap marks, add retarder when wiping. Solar Lux dries almost as fast as you can put it on.

I apply Behlen pigment products over a Sealcoat barrier (even if the board was dyed first), also by wiping on or spraying, but quickly “dry brushing” in the direction of the grain to even out the coverage ‘till it gets tacky. If the stain doesn’t tack up in a minute or two, you’re applying too much. If you screw up royally, the stain can be washed right off with mineral spirits and reapplied. The spirits will protect the previous coat or raw wood.

Along with SW and Mohawk (Behlen), ML Campbell also makes fantastic stuff, and most Pratt and Lambert paint stores either have it or can get it. Ask at the paint store, as the good stuff is in the back room or basement, not out front

I’ve been lucky enough to have had hands-on finishing training from several sources. The guy who taught me how to dye and stain was a traveling finishing trainer for Mohawk for almost 20 years. He would go from shop to shop and teach finishers how to use the products, as well as troubleshoot problems.

Minwax Red Mahogany is actually like a slow-drying Behlen pigment product in that it’s almost like a paint. Most Minwax products have far less pigment than RM. In general, I don’t like Minwax because of inconsistencies from can to can and a too-slow drying time.

-- - Please help keep Lumberjocks an enjoyable escape by refusing to participate in political discussions. Simply spit out the bait and ignore the thread...

A question for Todd A. Clippinger. What brand of lacquer do you use? If it’s high end profesional then what would be you’r 2nd choice off the shelf in most towns. Thanks

-- Mike, Westport MA.

Eastside – I am currently favoring MLCampbell MagnaMax. It is a pre-catalyzed lacquer with a 90 shelf life and is non-yellowing.

I had mostly been using Sherwin Williams pre-cat T77-F37 and a high build (more solids content) T77-F57. I like these too, but the MagnaMax seems to have a bit more durability than the Sherwin products that I was using.

I also have used the Sherwin CAB Acrylics which are non-yellowing.

For my last dining table I used MLCampbell’s Krystal catalyzed varnish. This is non-yellowing and I mix it as I use it. This is some impressive finish for durability as I have tested it.

I use a pressure pot for most all of my spraying.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I put a process together that worked well for me. I’ll be back with some pictures to chronicle the whole ordeal. I ended up sanding off the stain twice, but now the 3rd time is the charm. The only bad thing is that now the 1st piece I already completed must be redone to match the new stuff.

Realling looking forward to it. I started another topic about sanding. I tried to follow the advice but for some reason with maple I need to sand it a lot to get the stain to look nice and even.

Here is what I did. (I’ll post pictures when the furniture is delivered to my son’s room)

I took all the advice from above and did the best I could with what I had.

1st attempt. Sanded 150, raised the grain, shellac/Denatured to seal, added oil based minwax with brush, wiped off. Result= Terrible Blotchy Garbage.

Sand it all off start over.

2nd try. sanded up to 220, wiped on a gel stain (bartleys) , it looked purple rather than rich brown like it was supposed to so, I tried to add some oill minwax on top. It still looked purple and blotchy. Result= Purple Blotchy Garbage.

Sand it all off again. Broke down and bought a sprayer and transtint dye (brown mahogany). $90 Rockler HVLP. It had great reviews and was on sale. I figure once it breaks down I will upgrade to the Earlex.

Now I decided to try the method I linked to above
1. Use a dye to establish a uniform base color
2. Stain and/or glaze to build the color
3. Tone/Shade to add color and depth as well as improve uniformity

3rd attempt.
1.Sanded to 220.
2. Spray the dye.
-I mixed 5 oz of water, 5 oz of denatured alcohol, and about 100 drops of tint.
- Put in my smallest tip to the sprayer and after practicing, sprayed the color to my dresser and drawer fronts. The dye dries really quickly but I sprayed the pieces to what seemed to be a uniform color of sort of a dark burnt orange color.
3. spray the seal coat of shellac/denatured alcohol (mixed 1:1)
4. spray the minwax oil based stain – I sprayed the stain so that it was a thin layer ( I was planning on toning after this step) that was reflective to light, I immediately wiped off. There was not much to wipe off at this stage.

I was fully intending to add some dye to my poly and add a couple toner coats, but when my wife saw it after stage 4, she was thrilled and thought it need not be any darker.

5. spray 3 thin coats of minwax fast drying polyurethane clear satin.

Done!

What I found is that my first 2 attempts with oil based dye left residual dark spots in the wood even after sanding the wood all down. (The stain sucked deeply into the porous parts) If I hadn’t screwed up the first time this piece would look much better. Now, even though it looks so much better than before, I’m still annoyed to see the result of the dark blotchies from my first try appearing on my final effort, albeit in a extremely muted form. I notice but my wife didn’t give a rip and is extremely happy with it.

Now I have a formula for the crib which is to be the final piece to the room. So the furniture will look successively better as you scan the room. The armoire was my first try and is blotchy and the color is inconsistent, the dresser/changing table is my second effort with a consistent color and only a few remnants of blotchies, and (hopefully) the crib will be a beautiful consistent color with a smooth salad bowl finish.

Thanks for all the help, hopefully this thread helps someone else avoid the frustration I experienced.

I’ve added completed pictures of my project in my project section. For anyone interested. Thanks a lot for all the help. I appreciate it.

All in all, I’m happy. The crib and dresser came out well, the armoire.. not so much, but that can be remedied now that I have a sprayer and a system in place. I’ll just have to sand it and redo it later on.

Thanks.