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240 volt /120 volt which cost less

10K views 19 replies 15 participants last post by  rossbotics 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have read and listened to the debate of 240 volt over 120 volt feed to our power tools for some
time. As far as they go, they are correct in the calculation of the power used. However, no one
has mentioned the cost of the power used. It is all in the way we are charged for the power we
use. Our residential services are mostly single phase 120 / 240 volt services. The meters that we
are charged by read the power used on the leg that is carrying the most current. Therefore, if we
use a table saw that requires 14 amps at 120 volts and nothing else on the other leg we are being
charged for 3.360 kilowatt hours of power per hour we use the saw while we actually only used
1.680 KWH. There is a simple and entirely real reason for this seemingly rip off charge. The
other 1.680 KWH we did not actually gain any benefit from went to waste as heat in the
transformer on the pole where our service originates. If we only pay 10 cents per KWH, the
difference in what we actually used on 240 verses 120 is 16.8 cents. Not much, huh? No, it sure
is no big reason to go to the expense of rewiring our shops just to save 17 cents, but how many
hours do we run our tools in a year? What will it cost our environment to pay the cost of all the
excess energy generation we could be saving by converting to 240 volt use where ever possible?
Granted, I am a professional master electrician and have access to better prices and my labor is
free for myself so my conversion was much lower cost. Not only have I converted all my power
tools possible to 240v, I have also built and attached magnetic starters on everything including
my router tables. If I can be of any help is sharing information on mag starters, just say so and I
will be glad to give any instruction I can.
 
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#2 ·
Thanks for the info. I did not realize that there was even a cost difference between the two. I just naturally assumed that 120 and 240 used the same total amount of electricity.
 
#3 ·
I believe your statement "The meters that we are charged by read the power used on the leg that is carrying the most current" is in error. The electric meters measure total power consumed. You are charged for what you use, not for double in the example you gave. I think you better go back and check the books on that one. Or talk to your local electric company. And you are not charged for "kilowatt hours of power per hour" but rather there is a rate per KWH. You are charged for the Kilowatts used per hour.
 
#5 ·
It would seem to me, then, that I could use 15 amps on one leg, and draw 14 amps on the other and only be charged for the 15 amps. I suppose it could be said that the other 14 amps is more or less taken into account in what you are charged. Sounds like some one would have gone to alot of trouble to design a difficult system.

Also, mag switches are simply a way to use a cheap little switch to turn on big current with a cheap relay instead of using a really big expensive switch (relays are much better and cheaper at handling large currents.) They certainly don't have any components that help a motor out. It is kinda nice if the power goes out so your saw doesn't keep going on and off…(that just happened to us two days ago….went on and off about 3 or 4 times in about 10 seconds.)
 
#6 ·
A Professional Master Electrician ought to have access to some clamp-on amp meters and other measurement equipment to test it out. But in reality I still think your conception on how a KWH meter measures kilowatt hours needs some study. It has to include the total wattage consumed at the load.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
That said, there are some advantages to utilizing 240 over 120 for your large tools if the draw is high and/or you have a long run (such as runnig to a disconnected garage).

  • A motor that draws 30A at 120 would draw 15A at 240 so you can use smaller wire to feed it since wire size is based upon current (at these voltages).
  • If you are feeding a distant subpanel, the current will be halved so the voltage drop in the wire will be halved (for the same size of wire).

Most of us have a combination of 120 and 240V tools. If you are setting up a subpanel for your shop (I am in the process of upgrading the power in my shop to a subpanel), you may be able to get away with a smaller main breaker and wire feeding it than if everything was 120V (which would require twice the amperage).

When you choose a 240V breaker, any 120 volt tool utilizes one or the other of the legs (120V to neutral) for its current. Breakers for 240V are designed so that if either leg trips, it trips the other. This means that too much current on one leg can cause you problems. If you are wiring your shop and know where your large-draw 120V devices are going to be (and which ones may be used together), you can optimize your electrical supply by balancing it.

For example, if you have a (assume all 120V) DC that you run with your table saw, jointer and planer but don't run more than one of the three tools at a time, you would benefit from having the tools on one leg and the DC on the other.

Jim
 
#9 ·
Jim your above discussion is excellent and accurate except for one error in fact.

"•If you are feeding a distant subpanel, the current will be halved so the voltage drop in the wire will be halved (for the same size of wire)."

The correct statement would be:

•If you are feeding a distant subpanel, the current will be halved so the voltage drop in the wire will be cut by four (for the same size of wire).

The formula is V(drop)=I*2/R which results in a decrease/increase in voltage drop by a factor depending on the SQUARE of the current. In other words if you double the current in the wire, as you would going from 240V to 120V, the voltage drop would be FOUR times greater.

Bill
EE and Woodworker
 
#10 ·
I have been reading this thread with some curiosity. While I cannot comment on exactly how the electric companies bill power usage I can comment on simple Ohms Law. I know I was taught the formula more than 30 years ago but I do not think Ohm's basic Law V=IR has changed. Therefore the voltage drop on a line is directly proportional to the Current Resistance. So for example pulling 20 Amps through 50' of 10 gauge wire will result in 0.0509 ohms® 20A (I) = 1.018V. Halving the current will reduce the voltage drop to 0.509V. Now honestly I do not think switching to 220 just to reduce the IR drop is probably not worth the cost. Especially since typically smaller gauge wire is used for 240V circuits with higher resistance thus canceling voltage drop savings. For reference say you switch to 240V with 12/2 wires and your current drops from 20A to 10A in the above example. The voltage drop at the load would now be 0.811V. Not a huge difference. However running a circuit at 240V does allow smaller gauge wiring to meet safety codes and thus save money and makes since for large load items like motors.

Ed
 
#12 ·
Wow!! Okay, as a non-electrician who is currently in the process of building a new garage in which I will house all of my tools, let me ask a VERY basic question. Is it worthwhile for me to set the new shop up for 240 to run my TS? I will (hopefully) also have a bandsaw and the usual smaller tools (drill press, routers, sander, etc.). I'm not terribly concerned about the cost of the wire since, I'm more concerned about the sub-panel and the efficiency within the shop. Thanks!
 
#15 ·
I would concur with making sure you provide for 220v in a new shop. I put several drops in during the construction of my shop. Plan to run TS/Jointer/Dust Collector off of 220v eventually.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
Skilrap,
If you put in a 100amp box with say room for 20 breakers you will always have the option of running 240. One breaker on one lug for 120, one permanently bonded breaker on two lugs for 240. The option is always there you just have to bring it out of the panel in the right combination.
Just be certain you bring enough capacity to the shop from the service panel or whatever source your pulling from. I would recommend a dedicated leg from the service panel. You won't interfere with household appliances and minimize the chance of spikes and valleys with electronics.
Best of luck, BTKS
P.S. I am not an electrician, always consult a real electrician if you are not absolutely sure of what your doing!!! There the disclaimer is out there. Have fun and enjoy the new shop.
 
#18 ·
I didn't read all of the comments, but you pay on the number of watts that you use. Watts = Volts X Amps.

So if you are using 120 volts and you use 2400 watts then you are using 20 Amps. However if you are using 240 Volts then you are using 10 Amps. That is why 240 Volt circuits can get away with smaller wire for the same wattage requirements.
 
#19 ·
Here we go!
The sub-panel in the shop use a 240V - 200amp this is for capacity only (you want each machine on its own circuit), At the main panel the breaker that feeds the sub-panel don't have to be 200amps it only needs to be sized for the wire feeding the sub-panel (in my shop i have 125amp feeding an 200amp sub-panel), the amperage of the sub-panel is determined by the feed to the panel wire & breaker not to exceed 200amps (but label the sub-panel), the disconnect breaker in the sub-panel can stay at 200amps. This is all to code.
As for
Wiring the motors 240v save money on size gage of the wires, you run the same number of wires with both.
120v = Positive, Negative, Ground. 240v = Positive, Positive, Ground. So go with 240v at all possible.
Some say why I don't have to use a negative wire to run 240v motors, because 240v single phase is actually two phases and there the wavelength cycles are timed different while one is on the positive cycle the other is on the negative cycle using each other. The ground Is for safety only (connect to motor housing), do not use the negative white wire for this purpose, If you are running romex paint the white wire black at both ends for one of the positive legs.
Be Safe
 
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