How do I decide on a price for my work?

I have built a couple of outdoor projects and have the same dilemma. I am afraid I did not charge enough. But the way I looked at it, I had FUN doing something I have come to love….Woodworking.

-- Randy, Allen Texas

(Supplies)+(Hours invested * what your time is worth to you)

i base it on time/materials or anything invested. i charge based on time invested and material cost. i pay myself an hourly wage. for example i estimate the hours for a job. if it takes me ten hrs, then thats my charge. and if it only takes me 8 hrs then the 2 hours are profit. so i cover my materials, labor, and gain profit.
bottom line this is what ive got in it and gotta have out of it.

-- BlueMillWoodworking@gmail.com

I use to have the same problem when I started. For a while I under charged but you quickly find the need to place a value on your creativity, Test the waters and see how much your clients are willing to pay. You can always come down on your price if needed.
For custom work, I always start with a free estimate and hand deliver it to my clients over a lunch I pay for.
This way I can read their expression when they open the white envelope. If it looks like they would rather pass on the project, I would compromise. I use a Cost plus 30% formula as a general guide to do my estimates. Projects will more than likely take longer than you anticipate so make sure to calculate that into your time.
I also have had some pieces that, if I had to place an hourly rate on it, it would never sell.
If you love what you do money is never the driving force of your creativity, so be fare to your self and to your client.
Hope my endless blabbering helps.

-- Any thing is possible at www.azzanarts.com

It is a balance, I sell through some local galleries and there some amazing pieces, but $800 for a bar stool? The bar stool has been sitting there for 3 years gathering dust.

I try to price an item based on what I think the market will bear. Certainly cost of wood, shop consumables and some money for my time plays a factor. I also have some repeat customers so I tend to treat them better knowing there is more business coming from them in the future. Though if you establish yourself as being “cheap” early on you also might have dug a hole for yourself.

Working the craft shows also lets you read peoples’ faces and people like to haggle at shows. So it is always fun and I price the items up a little accordingly, knowing I will knock 10% off to let the customer think they are getting a deal, but still covering my costs and show fees.

If the teacher is interested in purchasing it you might suggest a price you are comfortable with and if they decline, ask them what they were thinking as a fair price. You could also take the piece to some retail outlets to see what they think.

Good luck.

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

Congratulations Peabody,
That was a great compliment that the teacher gave you.
The short answer is …time and materials because you used the schools equipment etc. so those expenses don’t factor in.
The long answer:
A few things to think about when pricing
Consider what a fair price would be for a hand crafted table.
What does your table have that can’t be found in a store bought table of similar size and style?
Is there something special about the wood,finish or a unique feature?
Is this your design?
Once you sort out all that goes into the table and settle on what you feel is a fair price, take that price to the teacher. He/she will let you know if they think that it is a good price.
Sorry, I could not give you an answer like….A plus B plus C = the price, because there are several factors that effect the price, like geographic area ( material prices in New York verses Michigan) the economy etc.
Pricing is always a challenge….

Keith

-- Keith, Charlotte, MI www.julyswoodworks.com www.TheBenchDawg.com

Well, I work at a museum where price is all about creativity and value and perceived value. I have a friend who has become a successful painter in Florence but once traded a painting to the butcher to cover his 18-month meat bill. Trust me, the butcher made out very well. Simple bottom line: recover material costs plus whatever. Think that someone else may see the piece and want to buy a copy. Charge more. But I love one of the above comments about having a piece priced where it sits for three years. When does carpentry become art? When people are willing to pay more for it.

Besides what others have said about time and material. Lets think about what your buyer could be thinking . your a student and he or she is a teacher(not know for being rich) and they may be thinking $5.00 when you have $50.00 material or more in your project. when you plan on making a product it’s best to find out who your buyer will be. In this case you have the product and prospective buyer. More questions do you really need to sell? Are you willing to sell for less than what material cost? Will this teacher bring in more customers if they buy your table? you can ask yourself a dozen more questions whether your selling because your broke.or will this be a sale to gain more business,or maybe you don’t really want to sell that bad. Ok taking all these questions in account and other suggestions come up with a price. If none of that helps post some photos with type of material and measurements and let us vote on a price.

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

Sort of the same way you figure out what to pay a man for his help. Too much for him to quit and not enough to fire him.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

I like Jim’s idea. Let’s see some pictures!

Lisa

-- I inherited the woodworking gene and it's gone into overdrive.......

I guess because I am retired – I have a different out look on pricing items. My time is not worth a dime, if I was not in the shop I would be working in the yard or fishing. Plus woodworking is a hobby – something that will consume my time – and a joy for me to be doing – I am not trying to make a living with this hobby. I price all my items that I sell as this : Material cost – double that price – and sell the item (s) for that price. Example is quilt racks that I build and sell – most of the material runs $30 dollars – so the quilt racks are sold at $60 dollars. Seems fair to me and the customers have never complained. I always show them the material cost (and this includes everything) and then they know in advance what the price is going to be. Very easy to get cost of material so the customer is not shell shocked.

so what did you decide to do?

I have a lot of different ways that I figure pricing but the one question I always ask myself is what would the customer have to pay if they were getting it from someplace else, and what do I think the item worth. Also comes the guessing part of what you think the customer is willing to pay. ( Yes, I do size up the customer )
Next, you have to know your bottom line. Material cost and overhead cost and how long it will take to make.
This is your starting point. You can’t go lower than this.
Another thing I do is when I figure overhead costs I factor in how much profit I want to make for the year and break that down to an hourly number to factor into the projected time the project will take.
Now when I’m done playing with those numbers I compare them to what I think the project should cost and to what I think they would pay elsewhere and also what I think the customer is willing to pay. I then come to an average price between all those numbers. I will also break my project into individual pieces and plug in numbers for each piece (pricing from experience) then compare those numbers to the others. By the time I’m done doing it this way I come up with a good rationalization of where I think I need to be to get the job and make a profit.
Depending on the project, there may be many other things that may have an influence on the price also.
Material risks ( cost of having to buy more material if you mess up a pc)
Delivery to a 2nd story, Distance to deliver to, The level of difficulty to install the project because of job site
conditions.
You have to take everything into consideration. I lost a lot of bucks once when I did a job in a high rise building and didn’t factor in time waiting for all the trades to share elevator time. 2 hours of every day went to getting on and off the job site. With employees it adds up pretty quick.

I use the same formula as Larrysch does, only because I have recently started to sell my services, right know it is only a part time money maker but eventually I hope to make it full time. Cost of materials x 2 is what I charge.

-- Steve Phelps

If I retired I do a Jim idea. But I want to see some pictures!
wooden garden bench

Agree with others, but would like to see pictures. Of course ya know when you post the picture, you will probally get 15 different answers on price.

Right now I am finishing 2 Adirondack chairs and plan to selll them. In doing research I found prices anywhere between $49.95 and $300.00.
So since these are not built cheaply, and I used hickory, the backs and seats are curved for comfort, I will probally ask somewhere around $175.00 each. If I get a fair offer for one or both I may take it.

So to answer the original OP, ask for what you consider a fair price, add a little to that and thats what you tell the teacher. If she balks, then come down some. Its much more satisfying to ask a fair price and sell the object, then to sell it too cheap.

-- MISSION FURNITURE-My mission is to build furniture

Think of the best possible job anyone your age could have. What is the hourly wage for that job? Multiply that by how long it took add materials. Don’t make it a complex calculation since your situation would be ideal for making money. No overhead, free use of tools etc. I have a friend who is convinced that he should make top dollar for his woodwork because it is “custom”. Unless your name proceeds your work, you do not get the luxury of that added profit.
I may recieve a little heat for this, but. On a side note, as one who puts food on the table with wood, I would like to make this statement. People who value their time as zero and sell nice handmade products for department store prices devalue the work of all craftsmen and women everywhere.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ Woodworking for a living is a lifestyle not a career.

I back Rhett.

Steve1346- you should be using a x4 formula if you are using a simple multiplier. All you will be known for is doing incredibly nice work for cheap and nobody will tolerate you raising your rates.

Peabody – That is such a great compliment to have somebody ask to buy your table. Pricing can be tough and most of the comments on overhead and figuring your time are agreeable in my opinion.

My business costs are fixed and non negotiable. If there is a loss on a job, the first place to feel it is my wallet, not my suppliers or my electric bill. So knowing the overhead costs and what I want to make an hour is easy to figure, I just have to figure how long it will take each job and add it all up.

Being that you are in school and you really don’t have any overhead, it makes it a little bit tougher. Rhett is correct in that you do not have a reputation yet so the market will not bear a higher price for your work at this time.

Without a picture, it is really hard to guess what it should go for.

Never show the client your material costs! That is none of their business. WalMart will not show you their material costs. The product is on the shelf with the price and it is “take it or leave it.”

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

well I decided to keep the table, my mom liked it enough that she wanted it so no sales for me. Sorry if this is a wee bit anti climactic, I’ll post pictures once I get the time.

-- "We want the finest wines available to humanity. And we want them here, and we want them now!"- Withnail

LOL, that’s funny! That’s what I do! I spend all this time figuring out the value of something I made, then along comes a big eyed admirer with no money and I give it or trade it away for nothing but a full heart and the satisfaction my work went to a good home. They are like children to me.

Got some good ideas though, good topic…......

-- mtnwild (Jack), It's not what you see, it's how you see it.

I am suspect that your teacher is a “she” and mothers/women, by nature are nicer then then fathers/men/husbands/guys….......in fact, they more often lie to spare “feelings” from being hurt…............at least thats the way my wife is with our kids.

triple what ever price you come up with, you can make your mother another one thats even nicer.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I was wondering if that isn’t the way that it might play out.

I am looking forward to the pictures.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I really think that the idea of some input based on pictures from a number of fellow Lumberjocks would be great. I’m sure, as someone stated, 20 opinions would yield 20 different prices, but I personally would be interested in the input for my work.

-- Bill Roberts -- Steal one idea it's called plagerism. Steal a bunch - it's called research

In my opinion, everyone should charge as much as the market will bear. Charging too little is unfair competition and charging too much is price gouging. Comparison shop similar items and start out with the highest price you can based upon what you find out.

I’m retirement age and trying to do custom woodworking to make a living thanks to the greed of a few who spoiled the economy for the rest of us.

-- Always do the Right Thing the Right Way the First Time - if you can figure out what that is! Ken, Spring Branch, TX

I thought the idea was to charge an outrageous price for it, then keep lowering that price until it ends up in your own living room.

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist

That sounds about right based upon my experience!

-- Always do the Right Thing the Right Way the First Time - if you can figure out what that is! Ken, Spring Branch, TX

kewald: I’m w/you. When woodworkers let folks have their fine pieces (and there are a LOT out there) at Walmart or even furniture store (manufactured) prices, it hurts all of us. peabody: compare your piece to a similiar manufactured piece. Quality in workmanship, materials, finish? Uniqueness? Special design? If it is JUST a table, you need to price it competitive w/mfrd furniture prices. If it is a table that has added value because YOU made it, it should be priced accordingly. Communicate that added value. Sell yourself too, not just the plain table. Now, I’ll bet your mother values that table several times higher than anyone else. Your challenge is to find ways to add value to your future pieces (including selling yourself) to encourage higher profits when selling to clients. Good luck.

-- Keith, NW Alabama

I’ve had a beautiful custom designed, spiral walking cane for sale in my shop for two years. Despite many enthusiastic comments and assurances of returns to buy, It was still mine until yesterday when a dear friend told me he would love to have one of my canes.
I gave him this piece and his reaction was priceless. I’m happy that it happened that way. His gratitude is better than the money I might have made.
Now, I don’t mean to say that we should all give our work away. That’s no way to make a living. All artists should be paid a fair price for their work. So should those who aren’t practicing Art. But the pricing IS different. A carpenter working in building construction is usually getting an hourly wage.
An Artist, especially one whose medium is wood, most often doesn’t have an employment arragement and has to bear all the costs of his work, his living and the burdens associated with getting paid for his work.
So, the pricing MUST be higher than the cost of the material plus an hourly wage if the Artist has no other source of income.
If he is doing it as a hobbyist, he can charge whatever he wants to or whatever the traffic will bear. His main income source will pay for his cost of living and he doesn’t have to maintain business facilities.
Thank heaven, I no longer have to deal with those issues, so I can enjoy to the full the wonderful, ecstatic response from my friend who needed a cane and got a beautiful black walnut Art Object to use.
Well, I believe its Art!

-- If a man says something in the forest and there's no woman to hear it, is he still wrong?

I posted a new bowl a few minutes ago and invite you all to suggest pricing.

-- Bill Roberts -- Steal one idea it's called plagerism. Steal a bunch - it's called research

taid has a great idea for a new thread heading where we put in projects and take comments/suggestions on pricing, .... hoping no one gets offended by well meant lower prices.

Hi Peabody
No one will ever love it more then mother, that was a good choice to give it to her
You are young and you have lots of time.
I’m 70 and one of my main regrets in life is I didn’t do what I’m telling you, I just worked for the money, not quality. I love Sam Maloof work and what he did with his life. My hart sinks a little when I see some of his fine work.

It’s called building a business, if you are out to sell a few things, just fuelling around that different.
If you won’t to build a business it doesn’t matter how you start, you just need to stay afloat. Start building some quality thing and after a while people will start paying you more then you think they are worth. It may take years, so you need to love it.
Sorry, just an old man thoughts

-- Occie down in Costa Rica. come down and see us some time. I'll keep the light on for you Occiegilliam@yahoo.com

I thank you for the comments made on pricing my most recent bowl. If you’re interested, I put my way of pricing and the outcome as a comment on the bowl site. Thanks again. I’m high if you think of it as just a salad bowl and low if you call it art, but I started doing this at about 65 and have been selling for four years at craft shows and my goal is to cover all my costs and keep buying exotic woods so I can keep making more bowls.

-- Bill Roberts -- Steal one idea it's called plagerism. Steal a bunch - it's called research

I struggle with this each and every time I make a piece for someone. I only do this part time so I don’t keep track of the time I put into a project. Cost of material X 2 or 4 is easy. (I double the cost of material, btw)

The Cocobolo Jewelry box I made (see project list) was for a coworker of my wife’s who ordered it for her Mom. Because I know the family, I didn’t want to charge too much and I knew the person ordering doesn’t make a pile of money so I purposely kept my asking price in a range she would find comfortable. When she came to pick up, cheque book in hand, she asked “How much?” I jokingly told her a crazy price and she started writing so I had to stop her and told her the real price which was much less, of course.

So, the question is, was she completely trusting and willing to pay because she knew I wouldn’t rip her off or was it really worth the ‘joke’ price?

I’ve made a few things for people outside my immediate family and you know damn well they’re thinking “I can buy that at (store name) for much less than what this joker is asking. Hmmmmmmm, a machine that punches out thousands of these in a day made from compressed sawdust or by a craftsman who produces the same thing but in their workshop pouring themselves into the project from wood they have carefully picked out and shaped and manipulated until it is exactly how they envisioned it would be when they first laid eyes on the plan or put pencil to paper to start designing.

Toughest part of this is trying to figure out how much my time is worth to someone else…..

-- -- Don in Ottawa

Don, it would seem to me your client on the box was going to pay the price you were originally asking because it probally would feel akward for them to “haggle” on a price where friendship is involved.

Since you are a part timer, it may be a little difficult to know what your “shop rate” is. When I was a part timer, I was building stuff to sell just so I could buy more lumber and materials. Plus I was using it as an education, you know, trying out different assembly methods, new ways of staining, etc.

Now being a full timer, I figure in my shop overhead, gas for the truck, all the misc supplies (sandpaper, glue, etc), then I kinda do a local survey to see what other door rates are. I also take into account the big box stores (they are competition).
Basicallly down here in central Texas the door rate is $25.00- $35.00 per hour.
So when I bid a job I figure the hours to do the job, materials with a 25 percent markup, and then if delivery is involved I figure gas, etc.

Then I figure a “fudge factor”. This could be anything from –
Is there going to be repeat buisiness with this client?
Can I sell them on upgrades? IE: Wine rack, pullout drawers in the pantry, slideouts under the sink Etc.
Or is this customer going to be very picky?

I use this “fudge factor” to raise or lower my bid to compensate for the client.

So I guess the bottom line for me is that there is no set formula for giving an accurate bid.

Cabinet Maker magazine does a yearly bid survey. They take three different size cabinet jobs and ask their readers to submit bids. WOW- you talk about a huge variation in numbers.

All in all, I think you have to price your stuff with a number that you are going to be happy with. And that you think the client is going to be happy with.

Good luck !
Dave

-- MISSION FURNITURE-My mission is to build furniture

Hey Dave, thanks for the response….

Perfect example of what I am facing and I’m sure this is not unique to me. A co-worker has asked me to make him a liquor/wine cabinet. After a series of questions and pictures of what he was looking for, we had it set in our minds exactly waht it was he was looking for. Price range was a bit loose but I had a ballpark figure to work with. Wood choice was a bit tough but it came down to either Cherry or Santos Mahogany and finally to Cherry. Good choice as it’s ‘on sale’ right now for $5.95/bf. Cherry and Cherry plywood would come out to just over $500, add in an estimate for hardware and a 10% fudge factor. Twice the cost of materials and I gave him a discounted price of $1200. It turned out to be outside his price range so I am now looking at Oak for him.

Yes it drops the price of materials but at the same time, if I want to make a decent profit, I have to abandon my ‘materials X 2’ formula and mess around with the numbers. If not, I’m doing the same amount of work for less money.

The two pictures will give you a pretty good idea of what I am going to build for him. As a part timer, the length of time I take to do the job is stretched as I can only put in 1 – 2 hours/night (perhaps) and weekends.

Thoughts/comments?

-- -- Don in Ottawa

Don, too many times I have heard “if you can get your wood free, you wouldn’t have to charge much, right?” To which I may respond: “not really. Selecting and arranging the wood, initial cost of tools and setting up a shop, and painstaking labor, account for most of the cost.”

I believe in just these two pics you show a portfolio deserving professional level rating. Part time has nothing to do with it.

I suggest you keep your price of $1200 (if you are really okay with that) and subtract only the reduced wood costs. Nothing else changes. If anything, it may be MORE time consuming to get drawer and door panels to match well if less expensive wood is use. And what about all those hours you have already angonized over this job. Somebody has suggested asking the person you are discounting for to bring you a new client as consideration. I’m going to try that, and try to make it a serious discussion. Darned if you do and darned if you don’t…..

I’ve said it before, if I sell at discount, I have to spend time making another piece with the hope of finally turning a real profit. If I’m busy meeting commitments at discounted prices, I may miss a more profitable job. Marketing is tough! and it’s not free.

Wishing you the best!

-- Keith, NW Alabama

Thanks Keith….

The two pieces above aren’t what I have already but what I am about to do. The bottom one is taken from Wood magazine which has the plans in it, ready to go. I only used the pics as examples and perhaps a pricing estimate.

This is the part of woodworking I agonize over…..sigh

-- -- Don in Ottawa

I’d like to throw my hat into the ring because I have a similar dilemma, I have a day job but over time I have built something for friends and family. I am sure I am giving them a break because I am such a fantastically nice guy ;) But as word gets out my client base is growing outside my close circle of friends and family and I am less likely to give the ‘others’ the same break.

If I apply my day-job experiences then I come up with some factors/rules:
1. Charge for all materials, for example if I use 5 boards of 3bdFt to get a total of 12bdFt of usable lumber charge for the 15bdFt, chances are the extra 3bdFt are scrap or blemishes that won’t be recovered in other projects.
2. Honestly account for all time expended, not just sweat-time, this includes design and other productive time like prototyping and consultation.
3. Add a percentage factor to each time and materials to cover overhead like glue and fasteners or time for paperwork. I think %20 for each is reasonable.

So the formula might look like: Price=(1.2 x Materials)+(1.2 x Hours xHourlyRate)

So what do ya’ll think… over simplified or over complicated or right on?

-- Dane, Fairview Pk, OH. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away...

Question…..

For a full timer who is able to accurately estimate how much time is required to complete a project, a formula that includes an hourly rate makes sense but for a part timer who mainly does work for a close circle of friends and family and doesn’t really keep track of time spent in his/her own little corner of Heaven called the workshop, things become a little foggy.

How do I make that hourly rate make sense when I don’t know how long it will take me? Do I just guess and hope it all works out or is that what the ‘fudge factor’ accounts for if it takes me longer?

Keeping in mind that I am a part timer, can anyone estimate how long it would take to do one of the cabinets I posted above to give me a ballpark figure? 30 – 40 hrs? 45 – 50 hours?

Last edit: 45 bf oak or cherry + 1 4×8 sheet 1/4” + 2 4×8 sheet 3/4” + hardware etc

-- -- Don in Ottawa

It is hard to tell how much time any project will take. Time is based on experience, efficency, methods of construction and shop set-up. As a cabinet job, I see no more than two full days of work, 16-20 hrs. Which is what your friends budget probably affords. For a cadillac furniture buffet, I still feel that is no more than a 40 hr piece. That is me though. Just because it takes someone twice as long to do something, that doesn’t mean its twice as good. Your doing this for fun, a little extra coin and to build your reputation/portfolio. Charge what you feel its worth for you to have a project to do. Get paid in cash in my only suggestion for part-time hobby woodworkers. I also think 45bdf is short for materials, don’t forget drawer box wood.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ Woodworking for a living is a lifestyle not a career.

Good points and some I didn’t consider.

As far as time and experience go, I still consider myself to be a beginner in this wonderful world of woodworking. I guess that would account for the 45 – 50 hours extimate to allow for a slow poke like me to work through it but is it fair to charge for my learning curve? Probably not. His budget isn’t really based on anything other than available cash right now.I’d rather have a repeat customer who can recommend me to others that walk away from one job with a fistful of dollars….

-- -- Don in Ottawa

I’m just glad to see I am not the only one who has trouble decideing on a fair price. Like the idea of pricing on LJ’s as a test, If i can steal something away from the shop before my family gets it.

-- Duane,matt_megan@twlakes.net

I used to do well with taking the cost of all and I mean all materials used (include anything you used even if it was a left over from another project, or towels, or glue or…) and multiply by 3. This is not always perfect but it is a good place to start. Remember, you can always go down but rarely come up on your price…

-- jack -- measure once, curse twice!