Saw Stop question

Hmm. Can’t see how they could pull it. In two words: patented technology. They can and are regulating other standard features (i.e. free) like riving knives though. And in this case I can’t help but agree.

Anyway, given the bonus insurance companies are offering, I think the market will tell by the way of self-regulation.

Me? Once the time for a real shop comes, I’ll wait if necessary but get a Sawstop. Overall quality and service reviews are great plus the brake and the insurance make it a no-brainer.

-- Jojo, shopless in Kyoto · http://twitter.com/kagushokunin

I have to agree with Jojo. Once the patent rights run out on the Sawstop braking system I would expect the other manufacturers to move in this direction as well. Manufacturers are limited in what can be done with price cuts alone to make their product more competitive and increase profits. Adding new features and technology to existing product lines is one route to go in order to increase sales. Another is simply to add new product lines.

But, as far as government involvement goes, I don’t think that this will be an issue with routine purchases and situations. The insurance companies may force this technology in certain situations such as in schools and large workshops due to liability concerns. But, for the small shops and hobbyists I really do not see any government involvement in their daily operations. And, of course, with any addition of new technology it will undoubtedly raise the price of tools.

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

The owner of Sawstop approached other toolmakers with his idea. All of them turned him down claiming it was to much of a liability. He then set out to make his own saw. He actually caused such a stir with regulatory agancies about how unsafe saws were and the need for his product that they put the riving knife rule in to place. Or so I’ve read

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on this subject, I am just reporting what I was told in a casual conversation and this is not my personal opinion.

I was told buy a rep for another saw manufacturer that if the other manufacturers produced a saw with this sort of safety feature on it, that they would open themselves up to lawsuits by anyone who was to be injured on a saw that they made without this feature. They are afraid that they would be forced to go back and retrofit every saw they have made in the last 50+ years at their expense because obviously “there was a design flaw related to safe operation of that piece of equipment”. In other words if company XYZ makes a saw with these safety features on it today, and someone purchased a saw from XYZ last year (or 25 years ago), and all of a sudden cuts a finger off while using it, they may attempt to sue XYZ because XYZ re-designed the saw with an added safety feature. They can change the trunnion system, the fence system, the color, the table material or just about anything because it can be construed as a marketing feature, an upgrade or something similar. Once they make a major change in the safety aspect, it may be construed as addressing an existing design flaw.

Now this is my personal opinion – I find this interesting because of all the re-design being done by the other manufacturers today (Delta totally changed the Unisaw), nobody is coming up with this type of safety system. There is always ways to get around patents, you just need to change it a little. The only significant change any of them are making is adding a riving knife vs. a “splitter”. This is not a major design change, it’s more of a convenience factor. They are easier to remove if needed, have a smaller profile and move with the blade. Personally if someone made a saw that could eliminate the risk of a kick-back, 100% guaranteed, I’d purchase one this afternoon. I worry more about cutting an extremity off on a band saw, router or circular saw than on a table saw. However with that said, if I ever purchased a new table saw I would get a Saw-Stop. It appears to be just as well made as most others, if not better in many cases, and why not protect yourself with an available safety feature. I’m teaching my teenage boys woodworking skills, I would love to have a Saw Stop for their benefit.

-- NorthWoodsMan

the riving knife is mandated by the Underwriters Laboratory now for any table saw manufactured as of january 2009

And where does it end ? SawStop table saw, SawStop bandsaw, SawStop Router, SawStop jointer, and on and on and on. It would eventually get to the point that an average consumer couldn’t afford to setup shop for even just personal use, and would kill off the woodworking hobby industry as we know it. According to the Federal job outlook in cabinet and furniture jobs, woodworking has allready become a sinking ship.

”the riving knife is mandated by the Underwriters Laboratory now for any table saw manufactured as of january 2009”

Maybe I should not have said “The Gov”, this is what I meant. Again, NOT knocking safety, but every time a manufacture comes up with a good idea that the consumer likes, it always seems to be just a matter of time before everyone else copy’s it, from paddle switches/granite tops/riving knives to ???

This is all I was getting at, and IF the Underwriters Lab. does some day make all saw makers install a forum of saw stop, what will it do to prices ? Will they go up to the same price level of Saw Stop, or will they cut corners in other areas of quality to keep the price down ?

-- Don S.E. OK

Too bad they don’t have a MouthStop for idiots who have diarrhea of the mouth.

Now I’m not naming any names mind you.

-- It's better to have people think you're stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Speaking of idiots, Mike, how was your visit with Texas finest ? Or don’t you want to talk about that ? I don’t take threats to my family or self lightly.

this is starting to sound like a yahoo chat room with all the bashing

-- At the end of my life...When I meet my Maker...Will I be seen as...a giver or a taker

it’s hard to tell…

sawstop is the only mfg using that device. granite tops – are only manufactured by 1 facility (and sold only by 2 brands). Delta’s new design is completely different than the other ones….

there doesnt seem to be any conformation towards a certain design or new feature as they have been presented in the last year or 2. riving knives are not a new thing, but just now became mendatory for any NEW MODEL starting Jan 09 – meaning that unless company XYZ changes their current model, it will NOT include a riving knive. but all in all – I think this feature is fantastic, cost effective, and a great addition to any saw.

only time will tell… in the long run, any safery device that can reduce accidents is a blessed one – and once you get over the initial design costs, these devices will become most affordable, and available to the rest of us – hard to tell how long that will take though. but consider this – a computer CONSUMER CD-Writer drive used to cost $3500 when it first hit the market in ~94… now you can get one for free…

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Blades and new cartridges I doubt will ever be free.

But the question is this…do you think Saw Stop, is the next thing everyone is going to go to ? You all know how the government gets involved in things when it comes to safety (All new saws designed after Feb 2009 must to have them) Do you think in time the Gov. will make all saws/woodworking tools have some type of a saw stop system on them in the future ? And if so, what do you think it will do to tool prices ?

That was their original business plan, they petitioned the US Consumer Product Safety Commission to make their (patented) technology mandatory, thus insuring they would be the sole supplier to all tablesaw manufacturers.

They spent more time doing that than anything else.

Interestingly enough their website fails to mention this in their About Us section.

Miket,

The only time I ever see a post of yours its a snarky comment to Woodchuck and fails to add anything. Please shut up.

The argument about liability for other companies old saws is just BS cover for not agreeing to royalties.

Lawyers can sue for anything – remember it is worth 80 million if you pour hot coffee in your own lap at a McDonalds drive through!!

Fact is the sawstop technology was recently invented…They would have a point if the technology was available for the last XXyears but the beancounters avoided it. Fact is products evolve – The automakers didn’t follow the tool makers logic.
Antilock brakes….Not on the old 66 elcamino. How about seatbelts…......Airbags..’Electronic Stability Control’ etc.
These things all became mandatory but initially were sold as upgrades and/or only available on the luxury models.

There is and always will be some inherent dangers—but to hide behind the legal boogeyman as an excuse to do nothing doesn’t save them. When the High school with the PM2000 has an accident and billy looses 3 fingers, both the school and WMH tools will be defendants. and the Saw Stop will be Plaintiff Exibit A. They will say this is now Known and Proven technology (go to the sawstop site and look at the videos of all of the “saves”). So they will ask the school why they chose to skimp and not purchase Saw Stop, but also they will turn to WMH and ask ” why in the face of XX accidents/year and Y saves have you CONTINUED to sell that horribly unsafe machine that cut down Little Billy before his prime.. blah blah blah.”

Having said the above – I have a 5 year old unisaw…I want a Saw Stop, but cannot justify trying to sell the Delta. If I were pro (with employees) or teaching, and allowing others to work in my shop the delta would be gone, even if it meant I donated it to the Church.

As far as the granite tabletops – I think it is a fad. Sure it doesn’t rust and is nice and flat, however I REALLY like magnetic featherboards…and they don’t work with granite.
Someone has an accident without the ‘latest’ technology and you have automatically lost any court battle – because as mentioned above – your decision was based on money – - and so will the court judgement.

-- Its never too late to have a happy childhood. But the second one is up to you and no one else.

As far as a company being sued by an injured user after they have released a new safety mechanism. The law requires them to produce a retrofit that can be purchased for their older equipment. If the user of an old machine decides not to get the retrofit an injures themselves, then the company is in the clear because they have provided all the required safety equipment available. What this means is that if, when the patents on the SawStop run out, Delta decided to produce a new Unisaw with a break on it, they would have to develop a system for their older saws that can be purchased and installed. At least that’s the way it has been in the printing industry for years.

Remember, most safety equipment has been developed, sadly, because of injuries. It’s only recently that tools are being designed and developed with safety in mind. A company can be sued for failing to produce a safe product, making a table saw without any ability to attach a blade guard or riving knife, but I think they would be pretty protected from litigation if they developed a new tool with the newest safety equipment.

I would not be surprised if eventually you will see OSHA regulations stating something to the effect that shops with X number of employees be required to use a table saw with a safety break installed. This will either force the other companies to develop one of their own and hope it does not resemble the SawStop system, or for them to lease the designs from Sawstop. Either that or all you’ll see in big pro shops is nothing but SawStop table saws.

As far as the SawStop cartridges go, if you send it back to SawStop and it’s a “finger save” (and yes, they can tell) as apposed to an accidental activation, they will send you a free replacement. As for the blade, the rep I spoke with didn’t say anything about that.

-- "At its best, life is completely unpredictable." - Christopher Walken

I think for a business that has liabilities to employees, and for schools (both of which have ‘other’ people working on the saw that you cannot supervise 24/7) the sawstop is a great solution at this day and age.

marcb- as usual – thanks for the insights, that is quite interesting read, and I agree with you about backing off from Woodchuck – he had a valid point here.

PS – You all know how the government gets involved in things when it comes to safety – when does that happen? the Gov. gets involved when the Gov. can get money from the people… lol

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Chris,
I wonder if this applies to woodworking tools like it does in your printing industry. I ask because I have talked to two different saw companys…Grizzly and Steel City and got two different answers (this was a question about riving knives).

A friend found a discontinued Steel City saw for almost half price. We called and asked “Why is it being discontinued” they said “Because all saws manufactured after Feb 2009 must have riving knifes, and it is cheaper to design a new saw and sell it, Vs. redesigning a retrofit for a older model”

I am buying a new style Grizzly for my shop and was talking to Grizzly tec support about the different options on three different models. Two had riving knives, one did not. I asked if the one with out would have a retro fit…”No”... since because of what Steel city said I asked if this was a saw they would discontinue they said “No, this saw has been one of our best sellers for years. The new rules about riving knives is only applied to new saws “Designed after Feb 2009, not older saws still in production”

-- Don S.E. OK

marcb – I usually just add comments when I feel they are necessary or required to help someone or to comment on their good work.

I have made over 200 posts and yet you notice only the last 3 concerning Woodchuck1957. Are those the only posts that you have noticed?

Woodchuck has, since he first signed up to Lumberjocks, been about the only abusive person here.

Others just try avoid him, but I refuse to. I believe I speak for a lot of people here in my comments to him.
My many private messages concerning him would confirm that fact.

You may enjoy his outbursts and negativity, but most of up don’t.

-- It's better to have people think you're stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Well, I know that the Unisaw we have in the shop here didn’t originally come with a riving knife, but Delta (through their company Biesemeyer) designed and sell an attachment that gets bolted to the trunion and you can slip a riving knife with anti-kick fingers to the saw. I agree with you though, in most cases, it is cheaper to just start from scratch then to try a retrofit.

-- "At its best, life is completely unpredictable." - Christopher Walken

Hey Chris – but the way manufacturers avoid the retrofit requirement – is by introducing the saw with a new model number.
SO if Powermatic had made their PM2000 with the blade brake – the retrofit would not apply to older PM66’s

Same as what Don saw from Grizzly and Steel City – they just assign those products a unique model number.

...What I don’t know is what are the limits in age? If PM made the 66 with a new feature, would the retrofits have to work back on 1950’s and 60’s versions? Or is it just for X years.

-- Its never too late to have a happy childhood. But the second one is up to you and no one else.

When I have read threads about the Saw Stop, I simply say: If you are going to use a table saw with the idea in your brain that you are going to chop all your fingers, look for another hobby.

-- Francisco Luna, San Francisco Bay Area.

Regardless of the business ideas and attempts to sale to other companies – the SawStop company has made an excellent saw with good safety options. Not everyone can afford one. I’m thankful I could and I bought one. I don’t think the retrofit concern is an issue at all. In fact, I think that concern by a sales rep is just a rep justifying the lack of keeping up with the Joneses.

As for the McDonald’s coffee incident – the jury awarded the outrageous amount – the court’s amended the award and sent the sides to a mediation/settlement conference. The settlement was not even close to a seven figure amount.

The large jury verdicts over the years on product liability cases have, in some instances, been way out of line to the personal responsibility of the user of the product. The two that really stick out in my mind is the two guys back in the late 70’s that used a push lawn mower as a hedge trimmer. Yes – they picked it up and used it to cut the hedges. One guy lost both hands, one lost most of one hand (as I recall). They got a huge award and we get stickers on all new mowers telling us not to be an idiot. The other is the guy that stood on the very top step of a ladder on an unstable surface, fell and injured himself. Large award and now we get stickers telling us not to be stupid.

Table saws come with a good many safety features, some better than others, but most accidents are caused by user error and/or inattention and/or uneducated use.

To the SawStop on its on—it’s a great saw regardless of the safety brake.

Just my two cents.

-- You can't get a hug from Facebook.

Great reply Betsy, As I said in my first post…”Nothing against Saw Stop or its owners, wish I had one” this was just a question about the future of saws.

As far as people and being responsiable for their own actions….As long as lawyers see $$$$$ there will always be silly pay offs from the court system. I use to work for a large power company. Years ago we had a young man climb “OVER” a barb wire fence ten ft. tall, with signs ALL OVER it warning of “Death/danger/high votage/stay away/ no tresspasing” etc etc etc to ge into a electrical sub station to kill himself over a girl who broke up with him. The sub breakers did their job and tripped before it killed him, but just barely. It still fried him and crippled him. His parents sued for “Millions” and won.

-- Don S.E. OK

Moai, if YOU don’t think that there is a possibility that you are going to chop off all your fingers every time you hit the “on” switch on your table saw, you are a fool (but I really mean that without any disrespect to you). There is no reason in the world to put someone down for buying a saw with “safety” being the #1 priority. It doesn’t matter what you think about it. And….. it doesn’t matter what I think about it. It is what they want to do. Why can’t people on this site just let people do what they want to and say what they want to without someone charging in because they don’t agree. I do have one question for Moai. Again this is a simple question with no disrespect meant. Do you own a table saw?

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

JJ, As far as I’m concerned I could give a rats behind what people buy, but ! I’m sick and tired of everytime this saw gets brought up ( atleast once a week ) that YOUR GOING TO CUT YOUR HAND OFF IF YOU DON”T HAVE THIS SAW !, and or have to look at someones gruesome injury or bandaged up hand. I got it, I get it, I don’t give a crap anymore ! Have any of you thought about how many potential woodworkers you’ve scared away only because they can’t afford that saw ? And I agree 300 percent with Moai. Grow a pair, or get out of the freakin shop.

I had a big long reply typed out and deleted it. You, Woodchuck, aren’t worth it.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Your right JJ, I don’t want to hear another sales pitch.

Why doesn’t everyone just take away your rights to do anything unless you are wearing a shark suit, steal toe boots, supercross helmet with visor and respirator installed, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, cut resistance gloves, and a fire extinguisher backpack. AND make them use equipment that is completely guarded and safe taboot. I just don’t understand why people worry about other people so damn much. Mind your own %$#^ing business about what tools other people are using. If you want a sawstop buy one. But don’t preasure other people to do the same just because you pretend to give a crap about their safety.
There’s to many whiners in this world today making everything so damn hard to do. It’s pathetic. If it’s not the safety police trying to force you to buy things you can’t afford its the government trying to control the way you use the things you can afford. This is all bogus. The day someone walks up to me and tells me how to set up my saw is the day I quit. I do this my way, produce my way, regardless of if I lose my hand or not. Because you know what, if you lose your hand, or a finger for that matter, you were probably being a ^%$#ing idiot with the tool anyway, and no safety feature is going to stop your ignorant asses from being hurt at that point. Stop being wimps.
Now, while all you girlymen are running around trying to figure out if you can achieve your woodworking goals without some supreme piece of technology to protect your ass, I’ll be in the garage making some saw dust.

Now you can add me to the Post where you are trying to run out the negative people. Flame up your torches boys, frankensteins monster is on the loose!!

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Whoa, wasn’t trying to offend anyone here, nor was I trying to “pretend I care about others safety” (Even though I actually do) I was just asking if others thought the tool company’s will jump on the band wagon and come up with some type of saw stop like many company’s are doing with granite tops, or if the gov/under writers will make company’s do so. I was not telling others to buy or not buy a saw stop.

It was just a question. To me, any time something new comes up, and is well received by the buying public, it seems like all the other company’s run to get out their own versions.

-- Don S.E. OK

How long has Sawstop had the patent so far? 5+ years?

I’m pretty sure it’s 15 years until the patent runs out and then the technology is fair game.

Then you will start seeing everyone using it.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

C’mon GaryK you are anything but new to these fora and should know better. Your comment is absolutely out of place here. How do you dare to give an educated and polite answer that actually gives your honest opinion to what the original poster asked? Since when do we do this here? And here I was, thinking this was a thing of the past.

I almost forgot: [/Mode sarcasm OFF]

-- Jojo, shopless in Kyoto · http://twitter.com/kagushokunin

Don, I do believe in time more manufactures will be offering a saw brake option especially if Sawstop sales starts carving out a bigger piece of the market share. But for that to happen the price for their saws has to come way down. If the price differance was only a couple hundred dollars more rather than a thousand for a Sawstop, there would definitly be a saw brake revolution. I also believe the table saw manufactures feel that if set up and used properly, the existing saw guard and spillter will prevent a serious accident. I happen to believe that. How many fingers could have been saved if the guard/splitter was used? My guess would be most if not all. I myself have been quilty of leaving mine off. Untill one day I was ripping some hard maple and the kerf started to close and pinch the blade. Luckly I was keeping enough force down on the piece that I actually over powered the motor and it stop. Keep in mind my saw is 1-1/2 horse power. If it was a 3 horse I’m sure the result would have been different.
I remember when I was a kid watching my Grandfather ripping some boards on the table saw.
A piece came flying off and hit the wall behind him. He said to me, ” You see son that is why you stand to the side and keep to your fingers the hell away from that blade”. Back then experience and common sense were your only safety device.

-- I've eaten so much sawdust in my life I now poop MDF. DIEGO OUT

If Saw Stop came out with a bandsaw, circular saw, router, planer, and/or jointer, I for one would save my money to buy them.

I currently have the Saw Stop contractors saw, and it is a high quality, no-nonsense saw (see my review). It works like a champ, does its job and its technology does NOT get in the way. I do not work for them nor have any financial interest in their company or suppliers. :)

IMHO, Saw Stop is a great quality product. I believe their technology will save thousands of people from unnecessary pain and suffering. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

Woodworking is not a a matter of bravado, courage or how big your scrotum is. Nor is it a ‘person vs. machine’ scenario. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, has a slip-up here and there (read my story about the bandsaw). If technology can save someone from permanent disfigurement, pain, suffering and expense, then go for it.

IMHO, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

And, if Sawstop did complete its lineup, it would be just like Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Laguana, etc. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

-- Chip -- Manchester, Connecticut "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

”Woodworking is not a a matter of bravado, courage or how big your scrotum is. Nor is it a ‘person vs. machine’ scenario. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, has a slip-up here and there (read my story about the bandsaw). If technology can save someone from permanent disfigurement, pain, suffering and expense, then go for it.”

Very true and very well said. I just don’t understand the macho thing when it comes to table saw safety. If someone is willing to spend their hard earned money on a table saw with a safety feature so be it.

-- Woodworking is not a destination....it's a joinery !!! http://smilesrus.com/pages/woodgallery.html

I was one here a few years ago and forgot my login. So I am back. My next saw will be a saw stop or something similar when I have the $. How much does a finger cost… $1,500.00 in medical bills from an accident with 10 stitches, xrays etc. I could have almost paid for the contractor saw. :(. I don’t think it should be a required feature that everyone will be required to pay for. This has been my first accident in 15 years of woodworking. All it takes in a momentary lapse in concentration.

Thanks for listening to me rant. :)

-- Bobby