Another dissatisfied Laguna Tools customer

that is most unfortunate. not sure what’s up with Laguna these days, I remember they used to be a high-end name that once can only dream of being able to use… but now-a-days it seems like it’s only memories that are left of that quality and service.

I hope they can step up and help you resolve this ridiculous issue.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

wholy crap!!!!! Sorry to hear about the issues you have had and thanks for the heads up

-- Hrolfr

I was going to upgrade to a newer saw this year … Thank you for narrowing my search. Laguna is off of the list. When you do get this resolved (not before) send laguna a link to this article.

Good luck !

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke". http://woodstermangotwood.blogspot.com/ (my funny blog)

I hate to hear stories like this. There simply is no reason for a company to behave in this fashion. I have a new saw on order and, from the things I have heard, I did not even consider Laguna. I hope things works out for you and hope that you can find a way to get the cabinets done in the meantime.

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

And by the way I am sure that there will be those individuals who post about not being too judgmental or not having enough proof or giving them time- as far as proof I have several months worth of email correspondense and pictures, and as far as time how long sould I give them?

thats unbelivable, they seem to be burning alot of bridges with woodworkers here at LJ’s. i have an older model delta table saw that i diden’t even buy from delta, i bought it used from classified adds and the plastic nut witch made the arbour tilt had the threads torn out. i called delta and it turns out the part was only $1.89. i live in canada and the part had to come from the US. the shiped it UPS to canada and purolator droped it off at my door yesterday for $1.89, no shiping cost, three days after i ordered it and my saw is back up and running( thank you delta) now thats what i call service.

hope they resolve your problem soon

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Would it be possible to just take the hit and subcontract this job to others? No profit but at least you keep your client and reputation.

Call me ignorant but I didn’t even know such combination machine exist until you brought it up. Pirce seems quite good for so much Laguna machine. Would this be part of their new line of “Asian-made equipment” they allude to on their website? Chances are there’s some QC kinks that haven’t been worked out.

But you should chase Laguna until they get it right. Maybe it’s just their miscommunication problem and a bad shipping department. If Laguna value their brand name in any way they would work this through. And like Odie said, let them know how many potential customers they could lost when they don’t.

That means you now have two Laguna saws on your hand? Sell them each at 1/2 price that = a full refund :P

-- Ed

I can assure you that it is not a communications issue and you are telling me to sell machines of inferior quality to another fellow human being. You think like them!

And another thing I am in the red on this job the client wont pay what I am asking @ this point and my friend has put about 20 hours helping me and I have been spending my extra time trying to repay the favor.

The president of Laguna has a profile here on Lumberjocks. it’s here

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

Wow. Who would have thought this of Laguna.

ARaisch, you might what to point Ken and Roman to this thread. These Lumberjocks forum threads have a way of showing up in Google results fast, so fast it amazes me. This would not be good Press for them.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

I just listened to an voice message from Roman stating that I slapped them in the face with this posting about the issues with the 9’ slider. He specifically stated that he is just now hearing about the sliding table and the boom arm issues. That is funny because I have a witness that will attest to me placing a phone call last week about the boom not alligning correctly for which I never received a return call.

What they should have done was set this thing up in there shop and make sure it alligned properly and could cut with repeatablilty. I forgot to mention that a bolt was laying on the bottom of the create when I received it that I later found out it belonged to one of two vertical guide bars that the entire motor and blade assembly rides on. I realized this when I could not fully lower the blade below the table. When I replaced the bolt I had to tighten all of the other bolts two of which I could not get to unless I took a stop nut off of the gear shaft and pushed the entire assembly up by hand. They said that it probably came loose due to shipping. What do they think I am stupid! The bolts had lock washers and the assembly had a steel bar bolted to it and the carcus. It would be impossible for it to move in shipping unlike the first machine that was missing the bolts for the angle adjustment and the entire motor/blade assembly was swinging freely.

Im glad we in England do not have this company to deal with some companys only know how to do one sort of business you would of thought this company would of learned the last time they crossed an LJ

if this happened to me i would show my unhappiness the only way they understand i would make sure they payed every penny they owed me one way or the other and i think the other is the only thing they understand

Andy

-- cut it saw it scrap it

can i ask do you have COMSUMER RIGHTS?

-- cut it saw it scrap it

So, how did Roman get wind of this thread? By accident?

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Amen brother. They obviously patrol these forums looking for fires to put out!

I called Laguna Tools and told them my fellow Lumberjock was very disappointed with the company’s service and posted a review of their poor service on LJ. And, as a result, I would support a fellow woodworker by NOT considering buying a Laguna Tool in the future until he posted a very favorable and quick customer service outcome.

The lady said they were already aware of LJ and the post and were working hard to make it right (Evidently, other LJ’s have taken the same action, applying a little “consumer pressure”).

Anyway, if you’d like to call Laguna, call the company direct at 949-474-1200 and press “0” for a live person.

LumberJocks supporting LumberJocks…

-- Randy, Tupelo, MS ~ May I become more like the Master Carpenter every day.

I was thinking maybe I should state what I would concider a reasonable resolution (since they can’t seem to come up with anything on there own): I would like an immediate and full refund of all charges concerning the purchase of these two machines (including shipping) so that I have the money to buy a machine(s) that works, they, at their expense can come to Maryland and remove these machines, an appology on this forum for the inferior products and customer service provided to not only me but, also the scores of others who have posted or not posted there issues, and a reasonable compensation in the amount of $20,000 for the time and money lost due to the issues that I have faced (I am sure if they sacrificed a few advertisements or sponsorships it would be more than enough to cover my losses and would keep them from litigation).
I would think it a wise thing at this point for them to employ a few of us lumberjocks to inspect and or try out there equiptment so that they can make the necessary changes in order stay in business and regain the confidense of there current and future customers. Unless of coarse they do not want to stay in business?

One of my friends has a large cabinet shop and has been talking about getting a new Laguna. I’ll be sure to see to it that he reads this thread.

-- Gary, DeKalb Texas

This whole situation is really sad. It’s lose, lose. Problems with equipment can happen…and when they do it costs the selling company money to correct, and poses frustration to the customer. If it doesn’t get dealt with quickly and effectively, it often costs the seller a customer (or10). Failing to completely remedy the situation from the start is disappointing, and even more disappointing is that I’ve read numerous complaints online of similar situations.

”I just listened to an voice message from Roman stating that I slapped them in the face with this posting about the issues with the 9’ slider. He specifically stated that he is just now hearing about the sliding table and the boom arm issues. That is funny because I have a witness that will attest to me placing a phone call last week about the boom not aligning correctly for which I never received a return call.”

My view may be overly simplistist, but the above statement waves a red flag to me, and may indicate the root of the customer service issue. Most large business organizations get their attitudes about how to conduct themselves toward customers from the upper levels of management. Assuming this entire scenario to be true, placing any blame or putting any pressure on a customer because of multiple manufacturer’s defects isn’t right. When you make profit selling things, you own sole responsibility of selling a functioning product, and making things completely right if there’s an issue. It’s cheaper to get it right in the first, but failing that, IMO it’s not realistic to expect a customer to be anything more than slightly understanding and minimally cooperative under circumstances like this. The customer who receives defective merchandise is under no obligation to remain loyal through thick and thin, though I think it’s basic human nature to weather minor disruptions without concern. It may be frustrating for the seller too, but it’s not the customer’s fault, and is part of the risk of doing business and not taking preventive measures farther upstream.

There’s often more to the story, so I’d be curious to here Laguna’s perspective here. Sometimes customer service issues are heresay, but sometimes they’re earned.

They have attempted to contact me again via phone which tells me they want nothing to do with a public reconciliation. Either that or they are trying to make a private deal to avoid further public scrutiny. I will tell them this- your timeframe for private resolution has expired and unfortunately I have been taken advantage of one too many times in life. I am making it my position to hold Laguna Tools publically accountable and, as such I will keep this and other posts active and reply as often as I can until a response is made on this forum! If Laguna wishes to redeem themselves before a large organization of it’s comsumers I will give them that opportunity. I understand if they do not want to talk money in front of the world but, there is alot more to discuss here than that. Humanity diserves to be treated better than the way you and companies like you have been treating us. If this forum blocks me I will set up a web site against Laguna Tools! Its time we take back this country from greed!

I’m so sorry to hear such nightmare!

wow, thats a shame!

In your case,I would contact an attorney inmediatelly, no doubts about it….its a BIG damage this company has caused to your business, yourself and your clients….this company is doing monkey bussiness and this must to stop!

-- Francisco Luna, San Francisco Bay Area.

What a nightmare. Maybe it’s time to see a lawyer. You do have rights.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

A wise man once said that before there is change there must be anarchy.
Anarchy happens when men that know better collude to take advantage of the good will of their neighbours.

“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies
it.”

—French economist, statesman and author Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I was also considering getting the same machine. I guess I am not going to NOW.

Thanks for savings us all from LAGUNA TOOLS!

ARaisch don’t stay on your high horse and soap box too long, you might miss your opportunity for equitable reconciliation. Forums are a good place to vent but I don’t know if they’re that good at getting the action you stated. In a few week this thread will fade into oblivion and only searches may stumble on it. I doubt it will do anything to garner you $20,000. If they’re willing to refund your money and pick up the machines you might want to take them up on it, as long as it’s timely.

And I doubt you’ll get a public apology because they probably don’t want to put it in print for all the world to see thus being on record and admitting they screwed up. Maybe they do, to show they made things right, but I’d really be surprised. A lot of companies strictly forbid their employees from posting in forums anything related to company business, I know that for a fact from some.

Lost income is always a tricky thing to put a dollar value on and most companies won’t offer any compensation for it and the only choice is litigation. Most have a disclaimer that they’re not liable for incidental loses, but juries sometimes think otherwise, I would if I was empaneled, but that’s a long and hard road to restitution.

Just my 2 cents.

But boy, I always thought Laguna made good stuff and was above reproach, guess not, can’t even say they’re like all the rest, it certainly looks like they’re a lot worse then the rest. I would expect this from some fly by night place selling Taiwanese or Chinese stuff, but not from Laguna. Well, until now.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Have to agree with BlankMan on this. The fade in to oblivian part will happen sooner than later. I also must say that the fact that Laguna Tools, a company I have no dealings with nor have I ever talked to or know anything about …is getting trashed on this forum when there are 2 sides to every story as we all know, may lead the powers to be at Lumber Jocks to rethink their position on this type of thread because litigation may come your way for no other reason than allowing this company to be summarily trashed without regard to facts. The person slinging these accusations has 17 posts in 11 hours. While I can’t say who is right or wrong and it is not any of our positions to do so, the fact that members here are playing the “I’ll never buy Laguna Tools” card is leading to members of this forum being judge, jury and executioner to a company that may have done no wrong.

My 7 cents…

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

In response to what has been discussed throughout this thread:

We are fully aware that the first machine received by Mr. Raisch was not acceptable in fit and finish. We are very sorry that he was not satisfied with the machine and we offered to exchange the machine or issue a refund. The exchange was discussed and both parties came to the agreement of upgrading to the 9’ panel saw. We offered this upgrade at a highly discounted price. The offer was taken and the new machine was shipped. We were happy to hear that Adam was very satisfied with the quality of the new machine and answered the questions he had at the time. Just yesterday it was brought to our attention that an issue was developing in the motor. We consulted with Mr. Raisch as to what it could be and promised to resolve the issue. We thought it would be good to talk with the in house electrical engineer and discuss where the origin of the problem might be. Since this time, just a few hours, this thread was created. We are naturally very concerned with what has been discussed and have attempted to resolve the issue several times today without any response from Mr. Raisch. It is our job to support our machines and we fully intend to do so. We want to keep all of our customers satisfied and will to do what it takes to get the saw running properly. Mr. Raisch, you can contact us at any time to resolve this issue, whether it be a repair or refund.

Thank you,
Laguna Tools

Wow. Was I wrong I guess. Sorta tap dances around, i.e. ‘fit and finish’. But I guess that’s as close to an apology as they’ll give, can’t blame ‘em I guess. The fact that they responded here does kinda impress me.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Define “tap dance.” Why an apology if you think you did nothing wrong? Again, it’s to easy for anonymous folks sitting at a keyboard to completely trash an entire company and cop an attitude because they perceive that this guy has been done wrong. This guy states that he has been “taken advantage of one to many times in life.” So he finds a pulpit that will allow him to spew his venom unchecked?

I for one think this entire thread needs to be erased.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

i think laguna might just be steping up to the bat because of this thread, if they corected the problem promptly this thread might not exsist.

i may be wrong but ….... you know

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Yeah I was kinda suprised of the post from Laguna too. I know there’s always 2 sides to every story. My FWW magazine came today and as usual the inside cover is a full page ad by Laguna. I have always had the opinion Laguna was high end machinery but after reading this, and other posts, about their quality and difficulty customers have in resolving these issues it puts a little tarnish on the image the pay so dearly to foster. I hope you both are able to get this issue resolved. As for erasing the thread, definitely not, if the guy truely does have a problem and can’t get any satisfaction I for one want to know. But I think everyone realizes he opened his LJ account only to vent his frustration. Question is: is his frustration valid. I wouldn’t rule out buying Laguna because of this post. Let everyone decide for themselves, sensorship is not the answer.

-- DocK, WV

Fedsawdave I don’t believe that his should be erased, If satasifaction is not responded to until after some public acknowledgement has been shown.

Then it’s doing it’s purpose. It’s bring a problem to a knowledgeable buyer. They can make their own decisions if they feel that their cash is in jeporady if they buy a tool that has problems that are not addressed until everyone knows about them.

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

Dave, “tap dance” because they didn’t come out and admit bolts were falling out, bolts weren’t tightened, etc. I don’t buy that all this stuff loosened up on it’s own in shipping, not if it was properly torqued in the first place. I’ve had that occur, it wasn’t due to shipping. And if that’s a known issue, there’s always Blue Loctite. Probably go a long way in saving money on replacing shipping damaged parts.

I suspect that’s a bit of legalese, wouldn’t be surprised if that post was run past the lawyers first. If you notice it really does not admit to any facts that there were problems with/to the manufacturing of the unit or in the materials.

“I for one think this entire thread needs to be erased.”

That does not surprise me in the least if you’re affiliated with Federal Saw, good thing for free speech eh? Of course no manufacturer wants to see threads like this, they might loose a sale. But maybe that’s good, I for one think it is. In dealing with companies in the past in situations like this, sometimes it the only recourse one has. It seldom works, but sometime it does.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

My FWW came yesterday and has the new Unisaw on both pages of the inside cover, guess they know you got more money DocK. ;)

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Blankman
I stand corrected full page Laguna ad is on page 7.

-- DocK, WV

Excuse me but what does “that does not surprise me in the least if you’re affiliated with Federal Saw” mean? I own the place! That would make me “affiliated”. I would make damn sure you know the differance between “free speech” and slander. Attorneys specializing in going after big mouth malcontents throwing barbs on forums are doing a banner business in shutting down said folk!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

DocK: Oh, I thought they might be printing ads based on geographical area, some do.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

i say if you treat your coustomers good they will have nothing but good things to say about a companys products. if you treet them bad you will sleep in the bed you made!!!

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Dave settle down. You’re a company of course you don’t want to see stuff like that. And right away you hide behind laywers… The crux of a lot of problems in and of itself. It’s not slander if it’s based in fact. I’m not saying it is, I don’t know, but when these things happen to me I have a paper trail that lawyers would love. Well, at least my lawyer would, but I never had to resort to that. I’m not sue happy…

But to have it erased? That’s going way too far.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Well said Tyson.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

I don’t hide behind squat! I simply don’t take forum rubbish. Go back an re-read every jump to conclusion post here. Every trash a company with NO FACT post here. This is what forums have done in this web world…allow people with no control over anything in their lives a voice to publicly discredit any company they want without regards to truth.

Believe me, Laguna has already printed every page of this and clicked on every maliscious post to garner info on the poster.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I think the OP might have gotten a bit carried away – posting double thread – with exact copy of his responses/comments on both – I find that annoying , I’m interested in the thread, but am losing focus on the issue at hand while trying to hop from each thread to the other and connect the dots. what more proclaiming not to discuss anything with Laguna in private, but only through this forum seems like first-grade behavior… I mean – come on – we’re adults, and the contract (sale of machine) is a private thing between the seller and the buyer, this thread is NOT the proper place to discuss it. I wasn’t surprised to see (allegedly) Laguna’s response on the thread as they’ve done in the past (2 months ago) in a similar fiesca, but I find it somewhat sad that it has to revert to that – in all respect, I see their need to join the debate.

With that in mind – I am in no way against the OP, on the contrary, when it comes to the subject at hand, I’m 100% with him. I find it unacceptable to get such treatment from a company of that statue. It’s good thing to bring the issue to the public (although it may have gone a bit too much over that… but I can see the passion here, and the need to resolve it using any means possible for the OP). the most troubling fact here, is that it’s not a single incident with company ‘A’ ... it seems like it’s a repeat that keeps on coming back to these forums. so I don’t think it’s slander, and I dont think its the OP finding a pulpit to release his anger… seems like there’s enough truth to the issue.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Fedsawdave,

Slander would indicate that Mr. Raisch has said something that was not true. I can and do attest to it all as I have be going through this mess with him. If a person had purple skin, and you said “Hey, he’s purple.” Would that be slander? No, it would be a true statement.

The truth of it all is that there is a poorly manufactured, poorly designed, and poorly supported machine in my woodshop right now. There is a machine that was not made correctly, does not produce any sort of repeatability in cut and accuracy, that currently will not run. Not slander, just the truth.

And, I do agree that there are plenty of people who want to hold a manufacturer or retailer liable for the fact that they themselves misunderstood what they were getting, or are otherwise slandering someone in their blog. but that is not the case here. 2 different machines, both with a lot of the same types of problems? what are the odds of that? If you, Mr. Federal Saw sold someone a lemon, and decided to replace it, wouldn’t you make sure they whatever you sent them as a replacement, same model or not, was first rate, and in perfect condition?

And, if that is truly your opinion about Mr. Raisch and the situation he is in, then remind me not to ever do business with your company.

Thank you,

Paul

Whatever, it is not for you or I to decide to erase it.

Having dealt with companies that have taken advantage of me in the past and I have lost $$ in the process, I think these Forums are a good outlet. Let the reader take it with a block of salt. The amount I’ve been taken for left no recourse to recover it and I didn’t. A lawyer would laugh me out of the office if I tried. And I doubt Wisconsin small claims court would help with a California company.

It is not for you to decide that it needs to be censured.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

pst in print it is libel not slander….. Also would this not fall under opinion which is not libel either….. just sayin…. also most of those suits to close down or go after the forum owner have failed from what I have heard.

Although honestly Dave, stating a bad review which is really what this thread is should be deleted does not look good on you as a business owner. It would honestly cause me pause from considering an order from your business for fear if that transaction went poorly and I reviewed said transaction that you would seek legal action against me for the post.

I have seen business owners take the same stance on other Forums (about medieval armour) and it never makes that owner look good.

Just my opinions here

On the other hand ARaisch the $20,000 seems a bit extreme I would take the full refund and run to another manufacturer. The public apology request and the demand for 20k makes you look a bit like a child throwing a fit. Not saying that a fit isn’t warranted it just does not paint a favorable picture. Take the refund and run… tell all of your friends about your experience and leave reviews where you can. Good Luck!

-- Hrolfr

Great, you can “attest to it” as you have “been going through this mess with him.” Good, then get a friggin attorney and put your money where your assumptions are! That’s all. The title of his original post is enough for ANYONE to have a problem with: “ANOTHER DISSATISFIED LAGUNA TOOLS CUSTOMER!”

Would you or him care to share the rest of the “dissatisfied customers?” Again, I have never had a thing to do with Laguna Tools, do not know a person there nor have I ever had contact with them. The fact of the matter is that this…is all ASSUMPTION!

And let me “remind you”, as you requested… do not do business wth me. I’m sure my children will now go without food and shoes!!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

PurpLev, nicely stated.

Paul, I completely agree with your final statement and was actually thinking the same thing and I might share that with my woodworking friends and the local Guild.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Again, who are the rest of the dissatisfied customers? Please post each and every one of them or this thread is slander and should be deleted. Make a blanket statement as fact with no proof at all and…...............

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

i’m with you to paul.

no business here. i’ll stay with the companies who deal with my problems with thier products.

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Dave…. here is one thread and I saw a couple of folks on it that had issues with Laguna

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/6628

-- Hrolfr

My God! PERCEIVED PROBLEMS! None of you would be accepted on a jury unless it was in Cuba!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I’d have to agree with FEDSAWDAVE’s point. Seem’s like everyone wanted to jump on the band wagon and trash Laguna taking Mr. Raisch’s story as gospel. It sounds like he has long sinced passed the point of looking for a rational solution and is more interested in spitting toxic verbage. His proposed “reasonable solution” is far from reasonable and his post about being taken advantage of too many times in life is a big red flag. Laguna didn’t get to be as big as they are selling junk to everyone.

-- DocK, WV

as i recall some LJ had a problem not so long ago with a gouge in the table of a laguna tool that took forever to resolve. only through this forum was this finaly done

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Yah erase it! Just make it dissapear! That’s stealthy. We can’t tell who you work for!
Just so you fellow LJ’s are aware I have heard this story before from Laguna. What they are doing now is trying to save face but, who is going to save the damage done to my business due to the inferior quality of the macines and lack of service. Be aware that if I was lying they could sew me for defimation of character. So, abviously I am not lying and must have proof. If you want proof of this I will post the email correspondense (by the way if you have ever received an email from Laguna you will notice at the bottom an UNLITIGATED warning not to disclose the contents because of company secrets. Don’t ever be threatened by that. Unless you sign something one is of no contractual agreement to keep in confidence any disclosure). I also have no doubt that Laguna Tools thinks that they have done what they are suppose to in working towards a resolution but, it just goes to show the degradation in service in this country. Is it acceptable that anyone buy a machine for any price that does not perform the function for which it was created with accuracy and repeatability especialy in this trade. And does not the statement that they are just now being made aware of the issues that I am having with the slider, when I called them last week, give credence to there neglectful service. As to my previous woes effecting this post you are absolutely correct. There comes a breaking point with every person and how they deal with it defines there character. You don’t see me shooting people or yelling and screaming like a child. I am simply trying to get retribution for financial damages imposed and losses as a result of someone selling MULTIPLE products of inferior quality. I have now received two machines that are damaged/broken. How irrate would you be? It is humorous how people are so easily swayed by empty rhetoric. What I have asked for as a resoltion and a communication on this forum has not been addressed or delivered. I am the customer. I paid a certain amount of money for an advertised product for which I was told I would be satisfied and I am not PERIOD What I am asking for is accountability! Something every company in this country despirately needs. If you allow a child to act imorraly and instead of punishment you ignore the problem or, worse yet, provide him/her the means to repeat the action, then, the behavior will never change. Some people may look like adults but, maturity and a sense of morality is what gives division between adolescense and adulthood.
Another reason I am asking for this resolution to be public is to show just how negligent Laguna Tools is being. They were aware of this post early in the day and waited until just before closing in order to respond. Why? They must have read that I wish to resolve this issue over the forum. If there is nothing to hide then why would they not be eager to do so. And might I remind you of what Nancy went through! I can just imagine the conversation regarding the machine table. “Nancy I am aware that you expect your brand new cast iron table to be free of defect but, it is Laguna Tools opinion that you have too lofty of expectations. Can’t you just sand it out? Uh O she just posted on Lumber Jocks. We better go above and beyond in this situation and send her a new table in a couple of weeks. I am sure she is not too busy too install it herself.” Am I the only one that sees a reoccuring bad behavior here?
Finally if anyone thinks that I am being dramatic I invite you to come over. Just send me your email and I will be happy to provide you with my address. You can come over and I will show you these machines and all the emails first hand if you doubt my integrity. I have nothing to hide!

In my short stay here so far I was impressed with how people with differing opinions could discuss them without resorting to personal attacks. However, recently that has seemed to have changed. Hope it’s the exception to the rule… The etiquette of the members of the forum had always been exemplary.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

obvoisly ARaisch called coustomer service befor he posted here. if they would have adressed his problem this thread would not be here..

nuff said in my opinion

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

Great! Now we’re on how to raise children….Dr Phil? Are you out there????

Enough, goodnight!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Hey Dave,

I made no statement whatsoever about other dissatisfied customers. If you take a moment and read what I wrote, before you fly off the handle, and put words in mine or anyone else’s mouths, you will see that all I said was that I can attest to what Mr. Raisch has been through. Whether there are other dissatisfied customers, was never mentioned in that particular post of mine.

Before you yell at anyone, make sure you have your facts straight.

And Dock, you are right. Laguna built a great name and reputation. But didn’t they just recently roll out the new Asian built machines, trying to achieve similar quality at a lower price? Seem’s in my OPINION, that they missed the mark. And the way things have been handled, insofar as I have been involved in it, do not reflect that good name of Laguna. To a woodworker, who has always revered Laguna as tops it is very dissappointing.

Dear pauldeo, open your eyes…read the dudes original post about “ANOTHER DISSATISIFIED CUSTOMER!”

Jesus , Mary & Joseph, MENSA will NOT be recruiting members on this thread!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Dave16
And I am sure that the lending institutions did not get as big as they are buy giving out poor loans but, they sure are doing it now aren’t they? I am also sure that the big airlines use to opporate in the black and not rely on government susidy. Oh might I remind you of what is happening at GM. I think there was a large investment firm called something like ENRON that was caught cheating people out of money and falsifying investments but they were on the small side weren’t they. The integrity of big business sure looks good these days.

LOL! Laguna tools is on the same page as ENRON & GM. Really? Man, you seem to have a real problem wth corporations. May I suggest that you turn off Air America?

Like a previous post stated: To many red flags from you…WAY to many.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Dave,

READ MY POSTINGS before you post again please.

“I made no statement whatsoever about other dissatisfied customers. If you take a moment and read what I wrote, before you fly off the handle, and put words in mine or anyone else’s mouths, you will see that all I said was that I can attest to what Mr. Raisch has been through. Whether there are other dissatisfied customers, was never mentioned in that particular post of mine.”

Where in there, or in my previous post did I make mention of other dissatisfied customers? Mr. Raisch made that statement.

So, once again in all caps, I will repeat what I said. i DON’T KNOW ABOUT OTHER DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS. ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT I CAN ATTEST TO THE PROBLEMS HE IS HAVING.” Just because the forum thread is titled “Another dissatisfied customer” does not mean that I agree with that statement.

Just how did you get to be head of a company anyway? Juries in Cuba? And when did we break into a subthread on child rearing.

MENSA, huh? Um, now who is out of line, childish and slandering? And you own the company? Wow.

MR Raisch,

Point taken, but Enron wasn’t an investment firm and my name is not Dave. I’ve said my piece and am sorry for your situation.

-- DocK, WV

Dock, that last posting was not aimed at you. My apologies if you took it as such. the only thing that was meant for you was the following and I should have put it in a post on its own.

“And Dock, you are right. Laguna built a great name and reputation. But didn’t they just recently roll out the new Asian built machines, trying to achieve similar quality at a lower price? Seem’s in my OPINION, that they missed the mark. And the way things have been handled, insofar as I have been involved in it, do not reflect that good name of Laguna. To a woodworker, who has always revered Laguna as tops it is very dissappointing.”

Ok, I’m changing my mind. I think FEDSAWDAVE’s posts should be erased, but that’s just my opinion.

DocK I agree with you in part and I disagree in part. I think both sides could be presented better with less ranting.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

hrolfr
If I took them to court would you not expect me to sue for due compensation I am trying to avoid introducing legality for both parties and at the same time hald this company accountable. It would be a little thing at this point for Laguna Tools to simply reimburse me the money for the machines and then take them away only to resell them to another unexpecting soul. There is no catalyst for change!!!

Fedsawdave You are getting mighty defensive here Something you need to get off of your chest? ANd, by the way, most issues reported online go away without proof because the company invovled does not want the proof to come forward – that is why there is a private resolution. And might I add no future accountability!

“Jesus , Mary & Joseph, MENSA will NOT be recruiting members on this thread!”

Assumption not in evidence.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Fedsaw you simply made a statement that lacked reason and I gave examples to prove otherwise

Also all it takes is one other person not satisfied to say another – you satisfied Paul? Nancy were you satisfied when you made your original post? and how about the gentleman that stated on another forum and I quote, ” Laguna pro is an oxy-moron.”

I can certainly say that I am not satisfied based upon what I have seen firsthand from Laguna products and service/support.

I only double posted because I was not sure which location would be most read. If the moderator sees fit he/she can combine threads or direct readers to any of the two threads.

ARaisch,

While I agree yes you could seek compensation in court this is true. I just was stating that it was not showing you in the best light to air that publicly. Demand the compensation on the backside from the company. Slam their service and product on every forum you can find. Try and leave the emotion out of it, you loose credibility when the emotion takes hold. ( I know easier said then done I struggle with this myself). You have every right to be PI$$ED!!! However leave that out of you communications it will come off a lot better. I am all for stopping companies from doing this to others, but there is a right way to do it.

I know here in good old Tampa FL we have a new station that does an 8 on your side piece where they help folks like yourself resolve these issues with companies… Maybe you should look into that. They will have people more familure with trying to recoup loses.

Also it might help if you can show where the ordeal of dealing with the 2 machines has cost you 20k, I am not saying that it hasn’t put Proof will be needed in your pursuit of the compensation.

Hope this helps. Again I am with you on this, I think you just need to dial the emotion down a notch or two in your posts.

FEDSAWDAVE,

Dude you really are making yourself come off like an ass. This cannot be good for your business man. Take a breath and think before you post. Then step back and think again, and if the post could be taken poorly don’t post. When you add your website to your sig line and your name has your business name in it you have to view everything you say as if you were in you shop. Would you yell at a bunch of customers browsing your shop that they are all idiots??? Would you act this way to people shopping. If so I am afraid for your business, I cannot see you lasting long.

It is sad because you are a local business to me, and an option other then Woodcraft here and honestly after reading these posts I do not think I would come into your shop and do business. As a new woodworker building out his first shop I have to say I make a large (500 to 1k) purchase of tools at least once a month and most months more then that, then several trips in to grab other stuff throughout the month that usually run 100 or so. I guess I have become a tool addict.

There is my 2 cents tak it for what it is worth.

-- Hrolfr

ARaisch,

Not sure where the best place would have been … I like the review section because it is more easily search able and will not just disappear…. but I like this thread because it would be a better place to discuss and update us all on progress.

-- Hrolfr

Hrolfr, there’s something I can agree to in it’s entirety, your comments to FEDSAWDAVE. In my opinion it does reflect on his business and at this point I would completely avoid doing business with him.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

There is not a person on this earth that can leave emotion out of it at such a time as this. The question is not weather or not I am emotional but, weather it is warrented emotion. Immature people respond OUT of emotion (you made me mad and I am going to yell, kick, and scream). Mature people respond with emotion (conviction) in order to convey truths and injustice.
In my opinion this forum is a court of peers and Laguna is on trial before those whom it has an obligation to act morally and justly. And all of this because, as attested by several people and on more than one occassion, has failed it’s resposabilities.

Thanks for the support Hrolfr
the cabinet job for which I purchase the original machine was contracted at $21,200.00 I also charge between $40 and $60 an hour for most work and have been hindered from doing future work. Paul can attest to that as well.

fedsaw also does not realize that he is supporting my cause by bringing further attention to this forum

Also if someone knows of a good lawyer wiho can way in I would appreciate it

I was lying in bed thinking about my 11 year history in retail management and some of the issues that I was faced with and I must say that I understand the point of view from which FEDSAWDAVE argues.
I once had a customer while managing a Zales Outlet store that I told, prior to him making a purchase, according to policy he could not receive a refund but had so many days from the date of purchase in order to do an equal or greater exchange. The customer proceeded to make the purchase and then returned several days after Christmas and demanded a refund. I politely told him that as explained before his purchase we did not offer refunds. This did not set well wit him and he threw the item on the counter and then proceeded to discredit me and my service throughout the entire mall until he was removed by security. I informed my District Manager of the issue and was assured that I did the correct thing and that he would stand behind me. Several days later I was notified by that same District Manager that the customer had communicated with the CEO of the Outlet division and she told him that he could come back for a full refund. I was overulled and not a happy camper. I tell this story because this was not a rare occurance and as such I realize more than most that customers can lie, cheat and steel until they get their way.
I can assure you that I am not such a person. I am after truth and accountablity and anyone who knows me will tell you that I will sacrifice my own well being before doing an injustice to another person. Through all of this I have owed my best friend $1000.00 and it has made me shameful not to be able to pay him back. Paul will tell you that I could not even bring myself to answer the phone when he called the other day. I sent him a check yesterday and immediately called him to let him know. And to tell you what kind of friend he is he told me he was more worried about what I was going through than the money that I owed him because he has paid for my ski trip every year over the past eight years and I have always paid him back. I am what I say I am and I believe it is my God given responsability to maintain integrity.
That does not mean that I don’t mess up or make a mistake but it is my responsbility to rectify the mistakes and injustices that I make. And if guilty suffer the consequences of my actions.
If fedsawdave opporates his business with these principles than he deserves to conduct business. If not than he not only deserves the same customer revolt but it is our obligation to see to it that he maintains accountability or does not opporate a business. The same thing for consumers too though. If a customer is actiing unjustly than they do not deserve the priviledge (not everything is a right) to conduct business.

i think we’ve all been hyped to many times , sometimes our own needs get the best of us , and sometimes
we act without thinking things through .
to me , it’s obvious that the quality and integrity of our modern world is deteriorating slowly .
don’t expect everyone to be on the same page .
i once took mensa’s test , and thought i did pretty good .
i sent them 3 dollars for the test results (in cash , thinking they were above reproach , and would welcome me into their ranks .
i never heard a word from them , so i guess im not as smart as i thought .
but the man is right , lets talk , not argue .
if you can’t say hello to a stranger , we can forget world peace !
sorry to hear about your problems , i hope they get resolved .
we’ve all been beaten half to death by the world we live in .
my first wife took me for a lot more than were talking here , and im still standing .
maybe tomorow will be better , maybe not .
but live this life and enjoy ,
it’s all we got !

-- david ,new mexico ,allheart

I’m not an attorney, but there is such a thing as an implied warranty when you sell a product in most state laws which says you will deliver a complete and serviceable product in the condition described. If there are obvious glaring defects, the product should be replaced or refunded and returned. I think it would apply in no refund situations if the seller delivered a piece of glass instead of a daimond.

I don’t need to listen to Air America to get a low opinion of American Corps and their business practices. I have 60 years of personal experience. I used to take problems like this in stride thinking it was an isolated incident. I don’t tolerate the run around any more if they start it. We pay taxes to support State Atty Generals and the Fed Trade Commission, use ‘em. Integritry and quality aren’t slowly disappearing; the rate increasing expotentially!

BTW, I’m just rattling on in general. I have no experience with Laguna, but I do with State Farm, Merrill Lynch, Oppenhiemer, First Commidity of Boston, ....................................................

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I’ve been watching this. It’s rolled from A to Z. It looks like both the customer and company lose. This is what could happen at this point.

Damage has been done to both parties. The customer has big tool issues and losses. The Company has lost a lot of sales. The company will, at this point, probably suck it up as an irreversible loss as damage has been done and both the customer and tool company will have to live with the loss.

or

The company can make good on the tool issues (I don’t think they’d do losses without a lawsuit) and the customer ends up printing a statement here that the issue has been resolved without rehashing the whole story or saying that they did it out of fear of this forum.

My guess is that the tool company will realize that damage has been done and leave it at that. But imagine what people would think if the company went out of it’s way to make good on the tools when it’s their choice to or not even after all the bad PR.

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

I am wondering at this point ( barring shipping damages) how a relatively expensive piece of equipment could leave a vendor or manufacturer without being quality control tested and as well “run in” in the process of finishing goods.
You may not expect that assurance with a $100.00 drill but there must be a point where such testing should start paying dividends.

I am assuming that in this case some assembly by the purchaser may be involved and could possibly affect the performance of the product.

So if the machine left the vendor having been checked out for fit and function it would be relatively easy to identify a field problem and remedy it.

Most of us have had negative experiences with tools or machines that did not meet minimum standards, I also think that many purchasers for high tech machines are not qualified to either assemble or test let alone run some equipment and this accounts for much of the disatisfaction level.

As this story unfolds it would appear that each party should have done more at the outset before bringing this here as a problem.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob #2 you appearently did not read the entire post It has been four months and two machines How long should I have to deal with this before taking it public?
And to your point of pre assembly and testing I would completely agree. Especially since the table saw was a replacement for another defective machine.

As far as my qualifications to use/assemble this machine. If it take more than a basic knowlege and or ability do you not think that they should have sent me more than a ten page manual on its assembly and nothing reguarding how to tune the machine? I challenge you to go to there website and find a detailed manual anywhere for downloading. Now go to Grizzly’s website. Almost every machine there has a very detailed manual. I don’t think Laguna needs to make them downloadable but they should come with the machine. I think if I can build and troubleshoot a computer’s hardware and software that a machine like this would not be that complicated. On the electrical side of things I do not know everything but I know what a capacitor is and does as well as a transistor, a transformer, a resistor, a relay, and verious other components. I have even wound a few conductors using a ferrite core and coated copper wire. There are a lot of these components out there though and new ones are being designed every day so I can not keep up with them all! I think that is a little more than your average woodworker.

As a newbie and a very inexpreienced wood butcher I have spent a lot of time reading articles and posts from LJ guys (I am in awe of all the wonderful things you do with wood), plus any other resources to get me started and find meaningful information on equipment and accessories. I have leaned much but just a tad of what the regular LJ knows. My resources are very limited so my selection of tools is critical; pricepoint, features, robustness and support are of prime concern to me.
Having said this, my research has produced the following observations:
Many of the prestgeous brands are not what they used to be, the majority of these manufacturers have gone offshore to have products made which in many cases are vastly inferior to the established US built product that their reputation was built on. The bottom line is that when your equipment is manufactured overseas you have lost control of QA and delivery. I believe this Laguna episode is just one of those instances where cheap manufacturing overseas has caused consternation for the manufacturer? and customer. Not all tools manufactured ocerseas are this way, Grizzly realy does have a hands on with the Tiawan manufacturer and has superb customer service. Similarly Jet and Delta have products and services that are good.
The name of the game is PROFITS. This economic mess we are in right now is due to greed for profits at any cost and the tools industry is no exception. The adage is no longer “you get what you pay for” it is “How can we make more money on this inferior junk?”
Today you have to ne especially carefull in selecting and porchasing tools and equipment, ignore the old reputations, select by thorough invesigation to find the tool that will deliver what you really need NOT want – a well made fully functional tool with good support at a realistic price point – all that glitters is not gold! Ther even a few items (not machines) that HF carries so never let your search be focused on well known brands. The exception to this I have found is: Router bits -Amana & Freud, Blades – Forrest & Freud, Generally great tools – Milwaukee to name a few that I consider best suit my needs.
This post may not address the whole Laguna issue butshould serve as a “heads up” that things are not what they used to be, so be careful.

You are a great bunch of guys doing fantasic things which I envy.

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

It’s easier to say than to do. When it involved a huge amount of money, one may tolerate a week wait for discussion/solution. But I don’t think that more than a month is acceptable. So I do not blame anybody in this context.

Usually when I purchase big machine like TS for example, the Importer/Distributor will give a call informing the machine has arrived and is available for inspection. They also ask if I want them to fully set-up the machine at their store. Considering that some accessories are not possible to be assembled before the machine is transported to the final destination, they also advise me to set-it up at my place. They also offer to give hand setting it up once the machine reaches my place.
I think it makes sense, since I do not purchase a transistor radio at the Cash & Carry Store.

-- masrol, kuala lumpur, MY.

ARaisch says:

“Bob #2 you appearently did not read the entire post It has been four months and two machines How long should I have to deal with this before taking it public? “

I respectfully point out that this is not a public forum in the manner that you are using it.

24 hours ago you were not even registered here and have done nothing in the way of woodwrking or the like before using this forum as a platform for your rant against said company.

While lumber J’s are a most empathetic and helpful crowd there is no reason that we should become a platform for what should be settled between customers and or vendors .

That is the job of the courts.

While your situation is unfortunate, it is still not resolved and asking us to take a postion with you on the strength of your presence here is a bit of a stretch to put it mildly.

Regards

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I agree with Bob #2. This situation is between you and the company you purchased from. I really don’t think that all 9,000 (or so) LumberJocks should say they won’t buy from Laguna because you have had a very unfortunate incident with the company. I like Grizzly tools. There are lots of people on this site who do not like Grizzly tools. Just because someone has had a bad experience with Grizzly, there’s no way I’m going to stop buying their tools. I really don’t think that using this forum as a weapon against Laguna is proper. Again, this situation is between you and Laguna. What would happen if you told the company that you or none of your friends would ever purchase from them again and then they tell you that they’re going to make sure that no other company will sell stuff to you. I know that’s a far stretch, but something to think about. In my opinion you should re-think the situation and make decisions based on the options you have. I’m sure the LumberJocks community will support you when you decide what to do, but it just isn’t right to ask everyone to commit to the idea of not purchasing from Laguna.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I too have had problems with my “Laguna Platinum Sires” planer/jointer. I will say that after getting a bunch of different stories from all their service reps Roman was the guy that helped me. This is after I emailed the president of Laguna Tools. I told Roman what was wrong (the starter relay was bad) and he sent me a new one. Bottom line is that six weeks after I bought the thing I fixed it and it was working.

It seems like the biggest problem is with their “Platinum Sires”. The Platinum Sires is made in China NOT Europe!

From my seat in the balcony Laguna Tools forgot how they got to be successful. Their core business was supplying top quality European equipment at a top price. They sold out and went for a fast buck in China! Now their reputation is tarnished.

-- Bob Clark, Tool Collector and Sawdust Maker

Hi All;

It is unfortunate that this has gotten to this point. It is also foolish. To handle the situation from this point, will not undo the harm that has been done. No solution will make the bad feelings go away. It would have been better, and easier to fix the problem at the beginning.

Most people understand that sometimes there are problems. While that’s unfortunate, if it is handled right, the consumer walks away with an even stronger opinion of the company they are dealing with. They realize and appreciate the fact the company is honorable. I find it actually surprises people to get good service.

As a small manufacturer, and also a consumer, I try to handle customer service from a consumer point of view.

That being said, I know there are times when the customer can be unreasonable. Shooting the manager just isn’t a good solution. And a forum does offer the opportunity for someone to take unfair advantage of a company.

So much money is spent on attracting new business, yet it’s surprising how many companies neglect to satisfy existing customers. It is far less costly to handle a problem promptly, than it is to let it get to this point.

My approach to handling customer service is to have MY PERSONAL CELL phone in the owner’s manual of my product. While that’s not realistic for large companies, I want to know if there is a problem or question, regarding installation, and I also want to know that it’s handled promptly.

Many of my customers are doing woodworking as a hobby. And as such, I am aware that they may be installing my product after their work day is complete, or on a weekend. It makes sense to me to provide service to these customers when they need it. So, if a guy is installing my product at eight o’clock in the evening, or on Sunday, he can call, and get a live person, (me), to help with the problem.

I have been told I am nut’s to do this. That may be true, but I find people don’t take unfair advantage of it, they call when they need help, and are considerate as to the time of day.

I would rather take 10 minutes of my time to answer a question that has likely been asked before, than have a person struggle with trying to figure something out on their own, and getting frustrated to the point of cursing me for not providing an easier to understand installation manual. Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not aggravating. And if I see a recurring question, it is my job to address it in the next printing of the manual.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not aggravating.

If the customer is a professional, my feeling is this person needs and is entitled to immediate attention, as he / she is trying to make a living.
As I see it, customer service is just living and operating by the golden rule.

I hope this situation can be salvaged, to the best possible end.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

WOW… I’ve had better customer service at Habor Freight

-- At the end of my life...When I meet my Maker...Will I be seen as...a giver or a taker

I did not read the whole thread (nor will I), but one suggestion is that if there are a lot of problems, it might be helpful to post photos. That way people can judge for themselves. On the other thread about laguna, a lot of people were up in arms about a “huge” gash in the jointer beds. Once the picture was posted, a lot (not all) of people switched to side with laguna. posting pictures can potentially remove a lot of subjectivity. please no one respond to me on this thread. I won’t be back.

I agree with Bob#2. It’s would be unfortunate if LJ’s members and or the site as a whole were potentially viewed in a negative light as a result of this post.
As noted above, I also have a problem with this being post #1.
I question whether ARaisch intends to be part of the community, or if he feels that Lumberjock’s is just a convenient pulpit easily hijacked for the sole purpose of pressuring a supplier.

Now…while this thread may have garnered the attention of the equipment importers I will make another comment. Enough with all the multi purpose, jack of all trades, not good at anything tools. It’s almost as if suppliers believe they can design around the basic skills and common sense required in woodworking. How bout this as a novel product, build the best table table saw, with a bullet proof motor and fence you could use as a engine hoist. No gimmicks, or micro adjust bullshit… something that will start day after day, cut straight day after day, run smoothly day after day…and just for insurance….how bout using standard sized hardware, bearings, fasteners, shafts, how bout creating a user manual that is comprehensive, that shows the end user how to work on this piece of equipment if they are so inclined, how bout making something that will last….that used to be expected in America or have we all forgotten.
You see what is going to happen very soon, China won’t build the cheap crap many of you importers design and force down the American public’s throat and all the slick advertising and sales gimmicks won’t help. China will do what Japan did 25+ years ago and cut all the profit at any cost, carpetbagger middlemen out of the loop and they will market directly to the end consumer and unfortunately, if American branded companies refuse to build quality…I hope this change happens sooner rather than later.

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

It would appear that we have been used to promulgate and intensify a quarrel with a vendor.
At least the text seems to be a copy and paste of what was dropped here.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f24/laguna-tools-junk-9729/

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Sheesh, that one didn’t have paragraphs either.

I didn’t read the entire rant, as it was just a blurr of words.

Shame on the NEW guy ! That’s the only reason you’re here, huh?

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke". http://woodstermangotwood.blogspot.com/ (my funny blog)

The writings of this original poster and all his subsequent posts makes me remember all those emails I receive guaranteeing me millions if I just send my account information. Judging from all the responses from Laguna, this may be a real issue they need to resolve, but sometimes you just have to wonder.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Now, I feel a lot better about my previous post. Dude…..... YOU need help….... and you’re not going to get it here….....!

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

We have to be more observant…......... All of us!

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Brian, how do we know these were legitimate responses from Luguna???............. I don’t buy it for a second. A company would be crazy to allow their techs to reply to something like this on a forum like Lumberjocks. Now, I agree that this thread should be removed!

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

JJ,
I was not referring to the tech that posted here… He has referenced names and event, so I was just giving him the benefit of doubt, but very little.

In the woodworking community, LJ has become a very valuable tool to get advice and help. It is also a very affective tool for advertising, and the opposite is also true: it can also be a tool to use to besmirch a company or a person.

I believe 1/2 of the things I see 1/4 of the things I read.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Martin has to be cringing as he reads all this. I agree this really isn’t the place. If everything i ever did wrong got posted like this you guys would think i’m some uncaring a**hole. And i admit sometimes i am. Lol

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

as a business owner myself i think its not acceptable to ship out one bad machine much less two. but, on the other side of things it sounds like laguna has been working with you which is a plus. there are too many companies out there that will leave you hanging and just ignore your requests, which has happened to me on more than a few occasions. when i read through most of the posts here i feel that a lot of the up in arms emotions are kind of too rough. the last time i had new equipment fail on me I just returned it. i had a craftsman compressor not too long ago that was DOA which shut me down for a bit. i simply called them and returned it and bought one else where. simple as that. sounds like ARaisch could just do the same. i’ve always felt action works much better the words. take action and return the machine.

-- Let there be sawdust

Few years back I had problem with my machine I purchased. The situation maybe different. Not knowing what to do, I sought advice from DIY Banter’s forum members. I never mentioned the brandname nor did I specifically named the vendor. So most of the members advised me to officially write a complaint and ask for replacement. I wrote a complaint letter. The vendor gave me option to either replace the machine with the new one or where possible send me the faulty part(s). With the help of fellow mechanic, I figured out that by replacing the faulty part would do. I got them sent me the replacement parts. Since I have very little knowledge of machinery, the fellow mechanic helped me assembled it. I was happy without the need to publicly exposing the vendor’s reputation, because I believe it was due to human error and there was no amount of intentional cheating.

-- masrol, kuala lumpur, MY.

Wow

I saw the original post a while ago and though about a reply, a sympathetic one. Maybe even putting in a few of my bad experiences, even a few of the pictures of the problems I’ve had. Balanced by some of the good experinces. Came back to do so today and … I’ve never used my scroll wheel so quickly.

A friend of a friend came by my shop today to ask about a mitre saw. I pointed out mine and said it was old and not too great but good enough. Asked about what he’d use it for and talked about fixed and sliders, accuracy and capacity, framing and furniniture making. Then I said the dreaded “look on the net for personal experiences”. The reply was basically you get too many extreme opinions. It’s great or it’s crap.

I’ve really appreciated the quality of reviews on LJ. I reall appreciate the experiences of posters like araisch. I’ll decide if I value it case by case, but I like to hear them.

I own a sailboat that has been completely rehabbed, a 4WD VW van that has had a subaru motor installed, a horse, and a family cabin in Northern Ontario. All of these things have have benefitted from forum questions and browsing over the last decade. I still check these forums ocassionally, but never for fun.

I thought woodworking forums were different. These other forums seem to be overun by…not really flaming, but just small people wanting to be the big guy. Never responding to the idea, about how they tried something different, always seems to be about how the other guy is wrong. Tell me what you did, or what happened to you.

I’m bored.

Even with my own post.

Smarten the f* up.

If posts like this are banned or erased, the junk from China will continue to cause problems for many unsuspecting customers. The impact is far beyond a customer service question. Two businesses have been negatively impacted and possibly ended. 4 months to repair or replace a defective TS is not acceptable, IMO. I have been in this situation myself. It is obvious a lot of the posters haven’t ever wiened thiemselves from the weekly paycheck system. It will bring a whole new dimension to your point of view.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Before I say a word that may hurt any of you here, please bear with me that I do not intent to offend anybody. But I still believe, all LJs here are very kind and helpful people. I don’t see any of them are trying or wanting to a “the big man”. Their answers or solutions to certain issue brought up here may fit to me but not to others. Can’t blame the person because of different situations. So we must be wise enough to weigh it which is suitable to us which is not. I don’t think any of them are influencing or compelling anyone with their idea. I would even feel very sorry if I post a thread and none of them reply & read.

I still believe you all are great woodworkers, kind and very helpful people.

-- masrol, kuala lumpur, MY.

Hi TopamaxSurvivior.
I agree with you on the idea of allowing post on problem like this. But as long as there is way to resolve it, like I’ve said before, IMHO, there is no need to mention the brandname or the vendor’s name. I believe this forum is not the place to expose bad reputation of any person be it human or business entity or organisation.

-- masrol, kuala lumpur, MY.

Woodworm, I would agree with you if there had been some reasonable effort to resolve this man’s problems with this tools in a timely manner. His livelyhood seems to be in great jeporady as a result of no customer service on inferior products. If I were in the wood working business, buying equipment to meet contractual obligations, this is the kind of information that is vital. If not here, where?

A couple of out local TV stations have consumer advocates. It is amazing how quickly asnine situations will be resolved when the TV cameras show up. No disrespect intended for your opinon, but I believe everybody from Bernie Madoff down to the shoe shine boy should be publically exposed if they are dong a lousey job.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Everyone please remember, this is just one review of a tool. No matter what the product is, and no matter what company, there will be good and bad reviews and because the dissatisfied reviewer tends to be more emotional than the satisfied one, the bad ones seem to be weighted so much more. Although I’m new on here myself, only a couple months, I didn’t sign up with my first post as a complaint which quickly turned into a childish bashing of a company that gets more good reviews than bad. I’m sure you’ve all heard the the phrase “consider the source” before at some point in your life but in this case you know nothing about the source so consider that when reading all the posts and then consider what you’ve heard about the company from other sources. I don’t work for the company obviously as I live in northern New York and have never bought one of their products, but based on their overall reputation and reviews, I would consider them if I could afford them in the future as they still get more good reviews than bad from what I can see.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

Juniorjock- I personally believe that a company has the RIGHT to sell to whom ever they choose. They made the product. So if every machine company wishes to boycott me, despite what the government or lobbyest may tell you, it is there God given right. Most people have lost sight of the difference between priveledge and rights.

Bob#2- it was the other way around I posted here first and then copy and pasted it to the other forums. BTW- I own the rights to my literature so I can, for the sake of time, copy and past anywhere that will let me! I also believe that other members have encouraged such behavior. I posted a long winded reply to the who cares if I am using this a s a pulpit or if I am new to this forum on my other post. And who are you to say that I am new to woodworking or a new Lumber Jock? That community extends beyond this or any other forum. For your information I was born into carpentry and construction and have participated in its craft one way or another my entire life!

Lee- thank you for your post You deserve to make the money that you make!

Marcb- I obviously did not start this post for you then. In the words of Doc Holliday “You may go now!”

Braininpa- Have I offered you something?

HokiMojo- thanks for the ongoing support- I dont care how shallow or deep the scratch was It was a new item. Why should she settle for any scratch? Leguna obviously admitted that there was a problem they replace the top did thay not?

Feinstein_cabinets- did it cost you $500.00 plus dollars of your money to return it? Did you have to pay helpers to carry the machine? Were you originally told that you would face a restocking fee? Did it take the better part of a day to get it created?

Woodworm- it was your choice to accept poor service and it does not sound like it cost you money and time that you did have as it has me. I will state this one more time for those of you who did not read- IT HAS TAKEN ME FOUR MONTHS AT THIS POINT WITH NO END IN SIGHT I AM STRUGGLING TO PAY MY BILLS (DID THAT HAPPEN TO YOU) THIS IS A LAST RESORT FOR WHICH I HAVE WAITED FOUR MONTHS TO POST

Miles125- at least you admit it :)

Griphon- WOW! so much anger. I also did not notice the bad experience that you had. Where was that in the post? With all of your luxury it sounds like you can relate! The fact is there are more people on this post that can relate than the ones that can not. Unless you have money to burn (and it sounds like you do) give it time you will. And if you do have extra money I will be happy to receive some!

TopoMaxSurvivor- well put and thank you You get it!

DaleM- I have not asked one person on this forum or any other forums to ban Laguna Tools. That is there choice as it is yours. I also did not ask for this large of a response so, I can only assume that I struck a nerve with alot of people. Some in favor some against. I harbor no bad feelings against Laguna Tools as individuals that comprise a company. I have promise myself not to breed bitterness aginst any man. I tend to be easy going which is why those looking to take advantage of me try to do so. I meerly believe that they have done and continue to do a disservice to me and as such there should be consequences. This posting is one of the consequences. If anyone wishs to continue a business relationship with Laguna Tools then do so. But you will not do so with my support as I fear for your loss.

If the vendor were being appropriately attentive, this post would not be here. If a company wants customers to be referrals and repeat customers, then they need to be more helpful. Even if it should cost a small fee to fix the situation, this should be done ASAP to save time/money/frustration. A compromise of some sort should have been taken early on to make sure the client can work with the situation at hand. Misleading a client to think they are getting service or delivery is not the way to go.

I can see that being pushed in a corner to risk your livelyhood and with such time delay, this posting would seem at the least a vent for your frustration. Hopefully, now “L” will take appropriate action to fix the bad equipment, which is all that you asked for. When we purchase “New” equipment, we do assume that is works as a “New” piece, not an abused or malfunctioning one. One wonders if they even bother to check their inventory before packing, and if they did, then why was it such a mess? Either they mishandled the merchandise before shipping or it was packed in an inferior manner, OR, are they trying to dump damaged goods on an unsuspecting customer? Most unfortunate for all parties involved.

In the past I have had to contact the Better Business Bureau (they have online access for claims.) This should only be done after appropriate communication has lost it’s effectiveness. I have had very positive results from vendors who thought they could ignore my valid needs once the BBB got involved.

I do not wish to see a vendor or customer harmed by internet postings, but sometimes a voice needs to be heard. Let’s hope we hear a “Hurrah” from you, as a satisfied customer. And Buyer Beware, as I’ve seen several postings of machinery being delivered with no sign of crate damage, and the contents are damaged, obviously prior to shipment. If I should order direct from a supplier, I will be uncrating the item before signing off on “undamaged” shipping. Not to mention, when placing my order, I will be inquiring about any mysterious damage that the crate shows no sign of from the outside, just maybe this will alert them, that I am an educated consumer that at least expects quality goods for my money unless I’m knowingly buying “damaged” merchandise.

-- "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." ~ Edgar Allan Poe

Thanks mmh- I will give the BBB a look. Years ago it was either my father or a good friend had no luck with the BBB and I have steered clear of them since. But it sounds like they have either an easier system of reporting or have stepped up there resolve.

“Methinks the lady doth protest too much.”

I’m getting away from this thread right now!

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2 You should have gotten away from it a long time ago Actually Bob do I know you? You sound like one of my liberal friends. Thanks for keeping my thread alive.

On another note – I will at this point speak of a few companies that I have dealt with recently that I have found to be great at giving service or selling high quality merchandise. As a result of the issues with the combination machine, I made some purchases at my not so local Woodcraft store in Towson Maryland. These people know how to conduct business. They do not always have what I am looking for but, they are quick to order it and/or recommend someone who does. And most of them know what they are talking about! That is a 45 min to 1 hour trip I do not mind taking. I recently needed to return a few items that had gone beyond the 3 month return policy and I was asked one question, “did you use these items?” and then I was given a full refund (afterwhich I spent more money).... Great company Great service. Well done.

As far as the manufacture that I said I would mention – Festool. I am just one of many that has nothing but good things to say for these guys and there tools. A little pricey but, great quality and very innovative. Their tools, with little exception, do what they tell you they will do and with great accuracy. I purchased the TS 75 plunge cut saw, the 1400 model router, a barrel grip jigsaw, the MFT table, and a dust extractor in case anyone was wondering. I do not care for the MFT3 table for making repeatable cuts but it is a great clamping table.

One more company that I will sing the praises of is a local store in Annapolis called Steven’s Tools. They are not a large store and most of what I am looking for has had to be ordered but, they have great service and do what they tell you they are going to do. The owner once told me that he does not carrry Festool but he knows the rep and if I ever wanted anything from them he would order it and let me have it with no profit just to keep my business. Every time I walk into that store I get that down home good feeling of one of those stores your grandfather would tell about.

having read ad reread both threads i’m afraid my veiws have changed we in england expect good customer service and most of the time we get it but one thing we dont do is use other web sites to bad mouth companys when service isn’t good i think this thread has got out hand and i now see LJ bad mouthing other LJ’s now i think martin would never of wanted that ever to happen.

ARaisch though you may have a bonified greivence with this company but i have to agree with Bob#2 that this is not the place to rant this is a good community with the best craftman in the world and its a place to show off our craft and not to use lumberjocks as a platform to direct greivence to others and other companys

thats all i wanted to say and like Bob#2 i’m outa of here and i think that this thread should be erased

Andy

-- cut it saw it scrap it

“Thanks for keeping my thread alive?” Geeeez! Have to agree with pommy, time to burn down this mis-built pulpit.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Pommy- then why the review section? and if someone is going to sound off against my review than I am going to attempt a rebutal. Obviously whomever is runnin this forum does not mind or I would have been asked by them to stop. And if not here among fellow woodworkers then where? No one has to read this and no one has to reply. That is the wonderful thing about free will and living in a free country!

Those of you who are speeking out against what I have said on this forum have offered no help or insight. All you have done is be critical and question my intentions. I did not ask you to comment on this post so you obviously have a counter adgenda. What is it? The suppression of expression? Are you employed by Laguna Tools? I would think that any decent human being would wish to edify others in there time of tribulation not kick them. If you do not agree with me or the others on this post that is fine but give a good reason why! Do not be immature and attempt to attack my credibility with no evidence of reason.

Fedsawdave- We all know that you are a business owner and as stated earlier I have attempted to give you the benefit of the doubt. You have made your statment and then followed several times by saying that you were finished posting on this topic and yet here you are again. Therefore I must conclude that your purpose is not an honorable one. There have been many who have stated there disagreements and that is it! I welcome disagreements and I new I was going to get them. That is why I posted what I did at the beginning. If you want to be constructive stay and lets talk.

BTW who is anyone but the man who started this forum and the people that currently keep it active to say what it’s purpose is. I would believe, since there is a review section, that one of its purposes is to inform others of the quality of product and services sold by companies and make it avialable for said companies to view those issues. That is all part of something called accountability. Should businesses not be held accountable by those people with whom it does business?

ARaisch, I’ve been there myself, but not quite as serious a situation as you experienced. It didn’t cost me the beginning of my business and it didn’t take 4 months to resolve.

The only thing I can find wrong with this thread is it probably should have been in reviews, eh? Are only positive reviews acceptable? Shall the truth remain a secret? If not on woodworking sites, where?

When I look at a business with a complaint, I assume that anyone can have a complaint, justified or not, until I learn the the details. When you try to check out any business with gov’t agencies, there is very little infor of any substance avialable. It is up to consumers to alert others. That will keep good businesses from going bad and hopefully get rid of the bad. Ebay has a rating system for all the vendor and buyers. Experience has taught me to stay away from anyone lower than 99.5% positive.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Thanks again Topamax I can agree with that and have stated that if the administrator wants to combine/move the post I would have no problem. I double posted only because I was not aware where this post would get the most attention. I admit that was my agenda. Otherwise if I did not think that I could spread the message to many I would not have posted. I have been forthcoming with that from the beginning. This is an attempt at accountablility as well as to spare others from my mistakes and Laguna Tools conduct toward me.

Have I made the best of decisions in this whole process? Probably not! Am I paying for that. More than I diserve. Reguardless of this machines cost or any others that I will be able to purchase in the future, I do not believe that deciding to buy a machine from what I thought to be a reputable company should cost me more time and money than the initial investment in the purchasing and setting up of that machine. After the initial investment it, as a means of principle, should be making me money. Does anyone disagree? Fedsaw?

If businesses are allowed to continue to conduct their business without the wellbeing of there customers at the forefront then this nations economy will depress further PERIOD The lack of accountability got us in this mess and throwing more money at the problem will not get us out. Only one thing will and that is what was neglected from the beginning- ACCOUNTABILITY! I realize that I am beating a dead horse here but, if I must stand alone in doing what is right then at least I and every one else knows where I stand.

I wasn’t aware you double posted it. If there is going to be a discussion, it is probably strictly by chance it was this on instead of the other. You are right about accountability. 60 Minutes on CBS ran a piece tonight about how the Wall Street criminals (my discription) are milking the majority of peoples 401k’s with all kinds of hidden fees cutting their lifetime returns in half.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Automobiles are covered by a “Lemon Law”, if the merchandise continuously has problems that malfunction, it’s replaced. Why can’t the consumer of an expensive piece of equipment get a decent replacement for an item paid for as “New”. If the item wasn’t advertised “As Is”, “Used”, “Referbished” or “Damaged” then the item should be received in fully usable condition. Is that too much to ask, especially for a pricey item and one that is a major tool for someone making a living from?

There hasn’t been any foul language or even a ugliness from the original LJ posting, just a complaint because of frustration from lack of adequate customer service. I would believe an equal posting of gratitude is due IF the problem us sufficiently resolved. Here is an opportunity for FREE advertising should such positive results occur.

-- "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." ~ Edgar Allan Poe

mmh, that seems reasonable to me. But I have been told my expectations are too high in the past. Interesting you mentioin the “Lemon Law”. We took our Town and Country back to the dealer several times for a minor transmission problem. During one of my discussions with the service department, I was told the records show it had only been in twice for the transmission. Obviously, they were keeping records to eliminate the “Lemon Law” just in case. The problem was finally resolved, but I learned another valuable lesson. Get and keep a copy of every work order on a new vehicle for any waranty work AND read it AND be sure all of the information is included. Document, document, document is the only way to deal with any business in the 21st century. It is really too bad integraty is vanishing from commerce. Naive handshake people like me get screwed again and agaiin, but I’m slowly learning ;-)

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I would be more than happy to end this thread with a statement of gratitude for the responsible actions of Laguna Tools if and when such actions are taken. I will however not accept an offer of remedy to involve any more of Paul’s or my time and money. And I expect some restitution. Paying off my credit card would be a nice start since almost all of the charges are relative to the expense of this experience. In case they are wondering, I will not disclose on this forum any remedy that goes beyond the refund or servicing of this machine. I do however wish an email or a post on this forum as an admittal to wrong doing and an intent to remedy as requested above. Then maybe we can both get on with life and we can once again enjoy our professions.

I’ve avoided posting so far but take a look at this review EZ Smart. I rarely use my table saw
any more. The last couple of paragraphs sum it up.
Conclusion
Even if I could afford and had the space for a $5,000 table saw, I wouldn’t get one; with things like the EZ System, I no longer see the need. In short, I like the EZ System because it enables me to get great results and feels very safe. I realize the table saw and the circular saw are essentially the same things—circular blades attached to motors that rotate them. But I prefer having the blade controlled directly by my hand and mounted securely on a track I know it’s not going to come off of.

Lastly, I like knowing that if I have a problem with the system or don’t know how to do something, I can call Dino and figure it out. “We have the absolute best customer service in the business,” Dino says. “I put my personal cell phone number in the instructions! If customers have a problem they can call me anytime—24 hours a day—and I’ll help them work it out.”

I’m not affiliated with EZ or a stockholder but for me their stuff just works and works safely.
You can get a new motor at Home Depot or Lowes on a moments notice, I have a few spares
on hand. I have used this system and is is just as accurate as the well set up Delta & Dewalt
table saws that I own.

Good Luck with Laguna, I probably will never purchase a new table saw. I’d go the EZ route
supplemented with a band saw.

-- Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

GaryCN, How do you set the EZ Smart up for production and multiple repetative cuts? Can it be done?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

The set up is easy, If you were blasting out drawer frames it would take a bit longer.
You still have to clamp to a measurement line. I suppose if you have employees making
one part this would add set up time. Most members here probably don’t work in a production
shop like Sauder. You still have to muscle sheet goods to a table.

-- Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Thanks, I was just curious. I like the idea of a small saw in my hand with table saw accuracy.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

GaryCN- I looked into the EZ system and the thing that I did not like is that if you tilt the angle of the blade then the entry point changes and you not long er have a splinter guard. That is why I went with festooll which is a similar concept just a slightly different way of doing things. I cut all of the sides and stretchers for the boxes and book cases with it and it woks great but is very time consuming. Each piece cut has to be measures at both ends, the guide rail positioned and the clamps applied. It would take a quarter of the time with the table saw especially when there are repetitive dimensions involved. Thanks for the post though

You know, it’s funny. But I was reading the reviews on bandsaws as that is one of my next major tool purchases (leaning towards the 17” Grizzly 2HP, cast trunions) and I found the following in there:

“I just finished reading this blog and have been using a grizzly stationary belt sander for years now with zero problems..I like Grizzly and will purchase them again in the future..I do want to post a warning about another company though..I’m a professional cabinetmaker and in the shop, we have the Laguna Tool Robland sliding table saw..it’s it very possible the worst designed saw I have ever seen, and it’s constantly in need of repairs..I have my own Powermatic 66 saw with a 5 HP motor and do everything on it with the exception of crosscutting very large pieces..we also purchased a Laguna edgebanding machine, which also gave us headaches everytime we used it till we fianlly stored it in the corner and left it..all I can say is we have had nothing but problems with Laguna and the service dept. so in my opinion..I would steer clear of them if you can no matter what they say..”

pauldeo, did you find that quote here on LJ?

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I surely did find this here on LJ. And I want to add that I do think is a great group of people. I am already getting a lot of great info on tools, projects, etc. I wish i had known about this group sooner as I would have joined sooner. I look forward to becoming a very active member.

I hadn’t noticed you just joined over the weekend, welcome aboard!!

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Marcb- I obviously did not start this post for you then. In the words of Doc Holliday “You may go now!”

Wow, thanks for the permission. But if you really want to be taken seriously you should write intelligently.

It’s pretty obvious that you didn’t star the thread for me, you started it for yourself. You where searching around and found that someone else had posted a similar thread and decided to take that idea and run with it. You copy and pasted it to at least 1 board in addition to this one as a way of attempting to apply leverage to the company.

All I’m saying is if you can’t find the enter button, maybe you messed up following the directions.

Well, a full business day has gone by. I’m curious to know if Laguna contacted you to try and resolve this or are you no longer on speaking terms with them? That would foster this dragging on. I certainly hope Laguna is trying to resolve this, it appeared they tried on Friday but it appeared you weren’t receptive to their communiques.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

I appologize that I am used to using a tab key to stress the beginning of a paragraph and not the enter key Marcb and I am likewise sorry to have insulted your obvious vastly superior intelligence. Remind me again which of your posts contained any reasonably usefull information. As stated earlier it seems your major purpose is an attempt to discredit me with no actual proof. I don’t believe anyone is buying it!
“enter”
I love having to repeat myself – Yes I copied and pasted. But how do you know? I just may have printed it using a printer and then retyped it verbatum. I assume that would have been the more intelligent thing to do. And why is that a problem?
“enter”
Yes I noticed Nancy’s thread and made a follow up thread. Hence the use of the word ANOTHER. And why is that a problem? Does that make the importance of this thread less valuable?

BlankMan- just to update you Laguna Tools did send me an email stating that they attempted to contact me via my post and my email. Although if I am reading the post correctly it was more of an attempt to inform the LJ community that they have attempted to remedy my problem and not necessarily contact me. The email however was a contact and it stated that they “can work on getting this saw fixed or we can have both saws picked up and issue you a refund.”

I will be emailing them after this post to further inquire as to what is meant by this vague statement as I have requested that they give me an immediate refund and remove and crate the machines themselves. I have talked it over with Paul and commited not to make any further investments in the immediate maintenance or removal of either machine as that is neither of our responsabilities. So if Laguna Tools wishes to send us parts and assume that we will do the trouble shooting and installation ourselves then, it is my opinion that, they have not made a reasonable attempt at remediation.

It was also agreed (between Paul and I) that we would be satisfied if they sent a technical service representative, at their cost, to calibrate and fix the 9’ slider and that I would no longer seek a refund. With, of course, the stipulation that Paul and I are both satisfied with the end result of that calibration. I would also want a guarentee that if any major parts of this machine malfunction in the next six months that the technician would be responsible for returning to the shop to make the necessary repairs.

I, however, will continue this post until an appology is made on this forum and some sort of compensation is decided upon. Sorry Laguna I am sticking by my attempt to hold you accountable.

i do belive that Laguna is responsible for repairing your machine or refunding you your money, and that they should have did that prior to this thread.

but i also belive that you should be reasonable in taking the refund and just put this behind you and take your business elswhere.

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

IMO, Laguna should have been reasonable 3.5 months ago or maybe even a bit earlier.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

Your trying to make this to personal. I agree that you should get the saw fixed or replaced and that it shouldn’t have gone this far.
But, just get it done.
Your asking for an apology and compensation is too much in my opinion.
Man up and go back to dealing with them directly, please.

Bentlyj- Too personal? I think it is very personal. I think the problem is that too many people in this country today are in a state of appathy. Happy to just be happy. At the same time others are taking advantage of that attitude. No sir! Not me! I believe that justice and ethics is not just some idealic philosophy. It is a universal necessity within which we all have a responsability to live and UPHOLD. A lot of people talk about what we owe future generations. That is what we owe future generations, as well as the current generation and generations past who have fought diligently to make sure that we, today, have the freedom to both live and perpetuate that necessity.

Sorry ARaisch,
It’s business, nothing personal.
I’m on your side for you getting what you paid for and being happy with your buy.
But a public apology, come on. I would be happy to just get it resolved.

It is Laguna Tools responsability to put this thing behind me. If I am faced with more lost time and or money it is not behind me. It is in front of me and will be until I can once again return to making a profit and allieviate my debt. Which may be years! I am shocked how many people just settle! Settle means that someone has done an injustice to another and GETS AWAY without full accountability and/ or restitution. Next time someone commits murder why don’t we ask him/or her what the extent of the consequence for their actions should be. This is not on the same level as murder but, wrong is wrong.

If I have done no wrong and Laguna Tools has then they alone have the burden of full restitution.

I’ll count how many more days you are down and still no compensation, compared to resolving the issue and getting back to producing an income again. You should be able to produce more income with the tool running than you would ever get trying to sue for compensation that will never happen.
I’ve been a business owner for over 20 years and if you think you are going to get any restitution for time lost you are in for a rude awakening.
Sorry,
I do wish you Luck but I know reality.

Thanks bentlyj- I am slowly working on this project, as well as other projects, and helping out Paul. So I will have some income comming in I just hope it is not too little too late.

I have little hope but, at this point, a strong resolve. I will fight until I can fight no more.

I will leave tonight with a quote. I forget who said it but, know that I do not take credit.

“All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing!”

That was Edmund Burke, I believe. It is true.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

ARaisch,

Imagine it from the other standpoint: your client from this moment on will tell everybody he/she knows and post on all internet forums about how you did not deliver a project on time. From your client’s standpoint your troubles with Laguna does not matter; you did not deliver. Words spread and you are out of business before you even started.

Do you want your client to do that? Or work it out with you in private? You received such courtesy yet you are not willing to extend it to others?

Laguna as a company likely have things they don’t completely control, as do you with this. You and Laguna are both businesses. What does it say about your business and your customer service, when you’re not working 24/7 trying to deliver your job, instead spend so much time on a forum demanding a public apology?

From the beginning I sympathize with what you’re going through, and I still do for a certain degree. But from all your responses you have lost a lot of class and good will. You are likely shooting yourself out of a fair compensation from Laguna also.

Why not try to at least buy a decent used TS (sell it afterwards) and just get on doing your job? I assume you only NEED a tablesaw since you are willing to exchange a combo machine for a slider? It might be slow, but at least you are making stuff and getting a cash flow.

Even from your response, it seems like Laguna made some attempt, if unspectacular, at resolving this issue. They offered to replace your machine, send you new parts, and even send you a replacement sliding TS.

bentylj is right, they are now actively offering to work through this so why not take advantage of that, then just report back to all woodworkers how it worked out?

-- Ed

ARaisch,

I have been following this from the beginning and have so far stayed out of it (Figured I was to new to the forum to say anything) But I have to say somethings.

I fully understand how it feels to be steam rolled by a big company (Not wood related or tool related), but if your expecting/demanding a public apology it will NEVER happen, the second they do they will open the flood gates to THOUSANDS of law suits, both real and imagined from people looking to make a buck.

If that is one of your demands before you will let this drop, they will leave you hanging in the wind and give you nothing till everyone turns against you…just read this whole topic, at first everyone was on your side…slowly many have went the other way, especially since Laguna made a reply on the forum.

You say they have offered to refund the money or replace the machine ?? Take it, just do not sign a release saying you will not go after them in court. Not being personal here, but do you have a family or kids to take care of ? We have all read how you are out money, out of work and your reputation had been tarnished because you could not deliver a large $$$ project. But you have never said if you had a family, I ask because if you do, THEY have to come before your pride, and that was not meant as a insult, anyone who knows me personally knows that I am easy going, but make me mad…..and I go off and hardly ever forgive (terrible, I know).

But the point is, if they are offering a refund, or to replace the equipment, TAKE it and start making money to take care of your self and your family. Pride is a great thing in a man, but it does not pay the bills, work does. Now after this, if you still feel it is not enough, take them to court and try to get compensation for wages lost.

This is NOT impossible, my best friend was hurt on the job and his insurance just stopped paying after a few months…gave every reason in the world, but the bottom line was it destroyed him financially. He got a lawyer who only got paid if he won and the lawyer said it was a slam dunk…and it was, after a few months (legal system is VERY slow) they settled out of court. The lawyer said they (the insurance company) didn’t stand a chance in court and they new it which is why they settled out of court. When my friend asked then why did they even start this whole mess to begin with if they knew they could not win in court ?? His response was…”Because they know 99 out of 100 people will not fight them and just go away, and the few that they do have to pay in court/settlements is small beans for all the money they saved on people who did not fight them”.

Take the tools or refund, make some money and try to get back on your feet. I feel for you, I REALLY do, but your never going to win a fight with a multi-million dollar corp. on a public forum. Those fights are for court rooms.

Take what I said as you will, but it was not meant to insult, just my opinion.

-- Don S.E. OK

Hasn’t this gone on long enough? I appears the only reason you joined LJs is to bash Luguna and other posters who try to offer any type advice that differes with your own opinion.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

~~~AS THE LATHE TURNS~~~

When we last left this exciting episode, AR was requesting that ARCH ENEMY Tool Co.’s sales reps stand on top of the Empire State building wearing a crown of saw blades and yelling at the top of their lungs: ” WE’RE NOT WORTHY…WE’RE NOT WORTHY!”

No details yet from ACME

Stay tuned for another exciting episode of: ~~~AS THE LATHE TURNS~~~

A Hanna/Barbera Production in conjunction with Comedy Central

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I don’t plan to read this whole mess, but from what I did gather, Laguna is now offering a refund. TAKE IT and let it go already. Lumberjocks isn’t the place for this, a courtroom is! You’re not getting some lame public apology from them, so deal with it and go to work and make money. You should have never ordered a machine for a job that you already took on. Think of it as murphys law getting you.

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

Regardless of what happened with your saw and your subsequent interaction with the company I have to agree with the fact that you just used this site as a bully pulpit to slam Laguna. You created your account not to participate in what really goes on here, but to take your bad experience with Laguna to a place where you could publicly bash them. Ray Charles could see that….and the fact that this rant appears at other sites word for word just proves this fact. So when you are done stamping your feet and crying like a baby are you going to just delete your account? We have a review section on this site, and if you take a look at it there are good reviews and poor ones..but nobody really takes a stand slamming a company…they just speak honestly about their experiences and impressions of the equipment they are reviewing…either positive or negative.

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

LOL FEDSAWDAVE

Can’t wait for the next episode.

Actually, hoping for the series finale.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

”..and now for something completely different…”-Monty Python

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

“If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.”

Abraham Maslow American Philosopher & Psychologist 1908-1970

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

If you decide to take your business elsewhere, I would like to recommend Mini Max. During the last 12 months I have purchased a FS-35 14” jointer-planer and a MM-16 bandsaw. Both machines are made in Italy and the quality and service is outstanding. They also make larger combination machines.
Roger

-- Roger Gaborski, http://www.gaborski.com

ARaisch,

I have some advice for you, and please consider it.

1) Stop spending hours on this stupid forum reading and replying to everyone on this forum!!!! Don’t you have more important things to do? Such as resolving this dreadful debacle.

2) Hire a lawyer and see if you have a case for all of your demands. If not, then start thinking realistically (such as getting your Laguna saws replaced or refunded, an apology is not realistic!! What are we in 3rd grade?! As adults we have a choice on how we act, and the government is NOT going to make them apologize!!!).

3) Once you have your issues resolved (which, at best, is that you have your money refunded) get back with your life and forget about the whole thing (or at least 99% of it)!

Seriously, we are all sick and tired of hearing you whine. Do something about it. Yes we all feel for you being screwed by two crappy saws, loosing business, etc, but you have to move on. Either act now and get a lawyer and settle with the company, or spend forever on this forum complaining on how you didnt get an apology from a company.

I never said anything before but this is absolutely a rediculous post. Laguna has tried to contact him and he is not answering their calls or e-mails. Let this post end and get a life man. There is more to this than what you have been telling us, there has to be more. Too many red flags. If you really have a cabinet shop, shut up and get to work to satisfy your customers and quit your complaining here. How would you like it if some of your customers were to find this site and find you are spending all your time here and not building their cabinets? Would be pretty shameful, would it not?

-- Jerry--A man can never have enough tools or clamps

Don Kelly

Good advice and well put. You should write an advice column.

-- DocK, WV

Geologist, this is a “stupid forum?” And because it’s “stupid” you are here to post? On a “stupid forum.”

The geology of it all…

BTW, “we all feel you are being screwed?” Really? who exactly is “we all?”

BTW II, no lawyer would take this. Maybe charge ya 100 bucks to right a nasty letter but no money to be made…

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

.

This would be a THREAD on a FORUM Einstein….Sorry… a “stupid thread.”

No, where do liars go? To get degrees in Geology?

“2 stupid sense?” LOL Ahhh, forget the degree part…...........

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I just want to apologize for myself and Fedsawdave’s behavior on this forum. This is not how I usually act, but for some reason I lost my mind and started acting like an immature teenager. I wish you luck ARaisch on finding peace with your tools, Laguna, and your business.

Cheers.

Insulting geologists is racist?? Huh? Maybe rockcist but…. What are you, some 22 yr old politically correct rock hound?

Get it right, I’m in 4th grade…that would make me the upper classmen.

Now, back to our story…..AR, having failed in cabinetry, is thinking about a new gig making flags. Lots of money he’s told in making red ones!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Technically correct Dave, But let’s be nice guys, been enough trashin; going on between LJ’s, I thought we were here to help each other.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

Thanks for the message Geology boy. I’ve been told I’m “some PC collector.” Look punk, my phone # and business address is readily accessible here. Feel free to use it! Take you Arizona rock hunting dream and go find it.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

We are blankman but I don’t need some expletive deletive message on LJ from some 22 yr old punk fresh out of having his mamma wipe his bottom.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Dave, you seem to always find an argument, why is that? Just ignore it, like I’m sure a lot of other people do, it’s not worth getting your undies in a bunch. And don’t lop my head off, but it puts you in a bad lite.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

You know, as a new member of this group, I find it a little disheartening to see people like Fedsawdave attacking anyone and everyone that posts, who don’t happen to agree with everything he says.

Fedsaw, I am not going to act like I know who you are, and what motivates you to such nastiness, but enough is enough. I may be new here but I don’t really care for it. It almost makes me not want to post or participate in the blogs, and forum threads, just to avoid drawing your ire. I understand that you don’t agree with ARaisch, or this entire thread. But is the juvenile mud slinging really called for?

Let it go, and grow up. Unless I am mistaken, this is a group of adults. Can’t we not all act as such?

Thank you Pauldeo! Well put!

FEDSAWDAVE,

I apologize for my rudness and my immaturity. I am sorry for my posts and the message I sent you. Please no one look down upon FEDSAWDAVE, I provoked it with my hot headiness, I am sure you are a good guy, and an even better woodworker.

LumberJocks,

I apologize for wasting everyone’s time with my ill thought comments and off topic contents. I hope that my actions here today do not stick with me for the rest of my time here on LJs. This is my last post on this forum, b/c I have already done enough damage as it is. Keep posting LJs, this is a great website and I love it for what it is.

Cheers.

“WE” are the ones keping this post alive. i for one am not posting here anymore, and i think all civilized LJ’s out there should ignore this post and just let it fade into the unused backgrounds, its childish and foolish and i want no more of it.

-- a truly wise man never plays leap frog with a unicorn

pauldeo,
The Grizzly band saw you are considering is great, I have one and am very, very satisfied with it. Grizzly gives great support, even responds quickly to “stupid” questions fast.

Good luck – I see the 17” is on sale NOW!
RBC

-- Roger, Rep. of Texas

My thought is how many posts are on this . . . my thought would be how could this be slanted against one particular company. I think this is way over the top and just serving to skewer a company here at this point.

-- Bradley Miller, Blue Springs, MO - http://myoldgarage.blogspot.com

I am sorry to hear that most of the recent posts have gone the way they have. It brings me great sorrow that grown men would become pupits in this world. First of all not being able to recognize the severity of an injustice and secondly having no will to act!

I am also shocked at how many members that posted on this thread can not read and comprehend an entire post. I have had to reiterate myself too many times. For your information I never said that I did not have other work. As a mater of fact I worked from 8:45 a.m. yesterday until 9:00 p.m.

This counry is slipping from greatness. No fight! No will! No justice! No freedom!

Just so that you know since this forum has turned to an immature mudsling by a few childish members. Laguna Tools has changed their willingness to resolve the issue. They are now only offering a refund with Paul and my labor involved in crating both machines and having them ready for pickup. They also will only give me a refund when the items are are received. How long will that take?

Once I am finished working for the day I will post the fulll email response.

How can the little guy fight the injustice of the big guy when the little guys stand divided? Or are these useless posts from the big guys?

Thanks to all of the indifference and lack of constructive criticism. I will be sure to return the favor someday in your times of need.

The facts come down to this- I was treated unjustly by a large company, I sought to hold them accountable the only way I knew how, most people could care less. SAD

ARaisch,
You are a bit off your rocker. I don’t even know how you can beleive in your own words.
“injustice”? They offered you to exchange the first machine. The new one didn’t work out and they are offering you a refund. Where is the injustice? Let me guess the answer….......you are out of work, blah blah blah. Machines go down, things sometimes don’t work. When this kind of thing happens fix the problem or return the product and move on. There is NO reason to be upset at a problem that CAN be solved. On the other hand there is also no reason to be upset at a problem you cannot solve. Problems that cannot be solved are out of your hands, therefore there is no usefulness of being upset. In which ever light you see it in your little world it makes no sense to be upset. Stop ruffling your fethers and be done with all this. So you have to get the machines ready for pickup….big deal. So you take an hour or so out of your day….which you would spend ranting on this forum anyway…. and get the machine ready. Would you rather not have you money back and still have a broken machine??? If i were in your shoes and needed money and had a machine sitting in my shop that was worth serveral thousand dollars in a return, I would have the damn thing crated up already. Sorry if I sound a bit rough but this rant has been going on way too long. I bet if you returned the machine the day Laguna responded you’d have your money back before this weekend. Regardless how long you drag this out you are going to get the same results. I’m suprised that hasn’t dawned on you yet.

-- Let there be sawdust

“Just so that you know since this forum has turned to an immature mudsling by a few childish members. Laguna Tools has changed their willingness to resolve the issue.”

???? I thought Laguna would not resolve this, which is you you were so mad. Did I miss a step here ?

-- Don S.E. OK

You joined Lumber Jocks 5 days ago and have posted 51 RANTS about your injustice with Laguna. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I have since changed my mind. You have provided nothing constructive to this site or this post. Maybe if you would have joined and provided something constructive or even some type of proof that you truly do have a dispute with Laguna I could take your ranting and raving more seriously, but I can’t. You have provided nothing but the words: where is a photo?

If you really do have a problem with Laguna, SOLVE IT and get over it.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

ARaisch,

I find it very unfair (fairness something we can agree we value) to all Lumberjocks member that you are laying blame on us, for not rallying behind your cause so you can get your compensation.

I’m not going to dig for paraphrases as I’ve already spent too much time on this thread. It was your claim that you are not here at LJ for support, that you did not ask us to voice out boycotting Laguna. A lot of us spoke up against Laguna for you and you should be grateful. And you said all you want to achieve is to alert fellow woodworkers of customer service issues at Laguna. From all the responses you have achieved that also.

So why are you now expecting us to put up a united front for your cause? You obviously believe in freedom and free will. We listened to your point and each as individuals made our decision as to whether we want to be future Laguna customers. When you posted your issue, you should be ready for the responses, whatever they are. That’s why this is a public forum, and you are the one responsible for the result of posting your issue online.

We do care about your issue, as evidenced by all the initial support. Most of what’s here are constructive critisms. We are advising you to quickly resolve this and resume your liveihood, get yourself out of debt, and focus on your business. Once you made it big you have plenty of chance to stick it to Laguna, buy an Altendorf or Martin instead. They are just not the response you want to hear, and it is you sir, who is close minded.

We have not all switched to Laguna’s side. When I have the $, I personally will think very hard before buying from them because of this. But now you shifting your anger toward us Lumberjocks is simply irrational and unacceptable.

-- Ed

I like Pie!!!

-- Hrolfr

Guys lets all say were sorry to Araisch for spoiling his resolution to his problem. I’m sure that a huge company like Laguna is going to be influenced by the ramblings of a bunch of sawdust spitting wood jocks. And what exactly was said that turned the deal sour? I bet it was that doggone Fedsawdaves wild incoherent rantings. I don’t doubt that you have had problems with the saws, and that the company might not have been that willing to resolve the issues in the manner you wanted or felt was appropriate. But to blame the silly posts in this thread as why they changed their tune..if they did. My problem with this whole thing is the fact that you only used this site to air your grievances.

And Hrolfr….I prefer cake..and if you got a problem with that, you can IM me angrily! :o)

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Thanks Brad. You busted me. I’m the one that hijacked the truck and beat the machines up

This is in no way an implication that the machines were beat up in the 1st place !

By the way, gotta go back to watchin my soaps…Luke is going to marry Laura today…real nice couple.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Let’s all ignore him and he will go back to the hole that he crawled out of, we should all stop feeding his fury !

-- -JimmyC...Clayton,NC- "Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave"

I like pie too.

-- Just 'cause a cat has kittens in the oven, it don't make 'em biscuits.

I’m having problems with something too, my tampons just aren’t doing the job and are falling apart before they should. I’m ready to switch to pads, though I don’t like the bulge when wearing my thong panties. The tampons fell apart in a most embarrasing situation, I was in a meeting negotiating a settlement with Laguna tools about my new lathe that didn’t work right. Suddenly my tampon went to pieces and ran down my leg, and left a big stain on the backside of my dress. I was so embarrassed, I could not properly negotiate a settlement and I feel I should be compensated for this loss I have sustained. I’ve tried to get the manufacturer to address this problem, and they told me to pack at least three up there next time. So do you guys think that this is my fault or theirs, and how much should I ask for in damages? I mean, those were really expensive panties!!!!!!!! I just had to throw this in, this thread has gone nuts. Weve all had bad tools, I am sympathetic to the problem, but this mudslinging is bad for all of us….............

-- Dan Wiggins

How exactly is it bad for all of us?

BTW- one day people were being constructive and Laguna sends me an email saying they would provide a new motor and the next day a bunch of immature children make non constructive comments and turn this post into a place for there attempt at comedy and Laguna sends me and email saying that all they are now willing to offer me is a refund after the saws are returned to their store.

I wrote the review as just that! I wanted Laguna Tools and fellow woodworkers to see it for the sake of exposure in an attempt to resolve this issue through public accountability.

Constructive? What negative comment on this site has been constructive. I answered almost every post with an attempt at being constructive and have thanked every member who has given constructive advise or support. I am not sure but I think that is being greatful.

Buy an Altendorf or Martin instead? I do not have the budget for those machines. I guess that means I diserve to be taken by Laguna!

BTW – learn to read they never offered me a replacement Sliding TS

Savannah505- nothing to say but childish

If I knew there were so few adults on this site I would have not posted here to begin with.

FYI support is Mr. Raisch sorry to hear about your issue with

I agree with your statement because

or

Have you tried this

or

Here is what I would have/have done differently

Support is not

Why did you buy it in the first place

or

Your a whinny baby

or

You will never get what you want

or

You should not have posted here

or

spend even more money

or

I like Pie! (although I do find some comedy in that one).

or

I am a fellow business owner who thinks it’s alright to cheat my customers and they should say nothing

or

a tool manufacturer/dealer should not be held accountable in front of fellow woodworkers

I am a bit nervous at this point because I recently purchased a laguna platinum series dovetail saw, which I had saved a few years for, and I have experienced some (minor) difficulties myself. The saw was ordered in December and was not received until February. The miter gauge came with a fence for a right tilt saw (45 deg. bevel on left side of fence). I contacted customer services by email and they agreed to send me a replacement fence. Which I did, except that I received the miter gauge assembly with the same beveled end of the fence as the original. After contacting them again, they sent just the fence, this time with the correct angle for my left tilt blade, but the fence was severely bowed and unusable. In addition, you could not adjust the miter square with the blade. Fortunately, the second one sent to me was machined to enable it to be adjusted for square. I have not really pursued the fence issue any further, as I now have two fences, of which one I guess I can cut the other end to a 45 deg. having both ends beveled. I also was not impressed with the manual, which was apparently for an older saw model, with instructions that at times were unclear, probably because the manual was not for the saw I purchased. I really had intentions of starting a savings again, this time for a laguna ban saw. But now am not so sure. I do have to admit though, that in the limited time/use I have had the saw, the saw does seem to be accurate, with adequate power, and except for minor glitches, overall the saw is what I had hoped for.

Don Kelley – they were working with me I thought I said that they offered a motor or a refund did I not?Those two things are options in an attemot to resolve an issue. They were however lousy attempts.

I have watched this post, mainly for amusement, for the last few days. I am sorry that you have had such a poor experience. A refund is the best you will get. Four months is way to long to be dealing with any tool manufacturer, period. Might I be constructive and suggest getting an excalibur sliding table to be added to a good cabinet saw. I have used Altendorfs etc, and yes they are nice and they also have a nice price. The majority of cabinet case work can be done with the said ext. and a festool plunge cut, which it looks like you have. I say that only b/c that is my set up for a one man shop, and I can produce consistent quality results.

I don’t want to add to all the negativity, so I will say this. Let this thread die, get your refund and get to work.

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

Thanks for the post bill4- sorry about your experience.

I had a feeling that I would get a few more posts like yours

There response to everything thus far has been “we do not usually have that issue”

Let me ask you a question. Were you satisfied with there overall service? What they sent, the time it took, etc… I can be honest with you if this 9’ slider came to me and I did not have the issues that I am facing I probably would have been foolish enough to forget about the three months of agrivation. Don’t forget its the little things that make a company worthy of your business.

Now just imagine what might happen in the future if you have a problem that renders your machine useless when you need it most. Will that level of service be acceptable? If so buy it but, if not then I would seriiously consider going elsewhere!

Hey, I’m making this cool bed out of…. oh, this is LJ’s isn’t it? Sorry, must have the wrong website.

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

Rhett – finally an adult who knows how to post in a way that is truly constructive and at the same time not be in agreement with me. That took only half as long as it took the guys at Laguna to send me a new belt.

I have given serious thought to that extension table I liked the idea of a scoring blade though but, may have to sacrifice that for quality at my pricepoint.

I have little hope to get more than a refund but, I felt this post needed to be started. I am just sorry that Laguna can now confirm what they are able get away with because of what people are willing to settle for. I just find that indifference sad.

I spoke with my cabinet client today. I had been trying to avoid telling him of my recent saw issue but, he inquired so I told him. I said that I thought the only way to recoupe cost would be to get a lawyer involved and, just as I thought, he said that would be a further waist of time and money. I figure he probably would know because, as a millionaire, he has dealt with a few lawsuites. I may still fo that route though. Paul knows a lawyer who I am going to talk to next week just to see what my chances are.

As far as getting back to work, don’t worry I have never stopped. I am doing what I can with the tools that I/Paul have for the cabinat job and Paul, thankfully has some work that he has asked my help on.

59 Posts in 6 days dealing with the same subject: blah, blah, blah… At this rate it will take you almost 2000 days to pass Karson.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Would you post a bed making story on the review thread? This site has one of those you know! I posted there too! There is also a video section, and a blog section, and a home page, and a contest section! What I am trying to say is that there are a lot of other places you could be. You might even do some good there Ol’ Danny Boy!

What I really find comical is how many people tell me to stop sitting in front of my computer and get to work and yet a lot of posters have “wasted there time” (to invest time in something for which you find no value) following this thread and making repeat posts. The topic of this thread has not changed, my agenda has not changed. Why come back? Why continue to read the many posts? Why post? Who are the people that like drama?

I am trying to get somwthing accomplised- you are wasting time!”

I have a great idea. Lets just start with all of the people who have said they were leaving this thread and those that think it is stupid or whinny. Those people can follow their own advice and leave this thread to the reast of us! Who have ligitimate complaints (other than me being a rash in your diaper or blood in your tampon) or possible resolutions.

You wrote: Once I am finished working for the day I will post the fulll email response. Still waiting. Put Up or Shut Up!

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Sorry brianinpa- I did not know you were so eager to follow the saga

I think it was the great Rodney King that said: “Can’t we all just get a full e-mail response.”

Of course, Rodney had just been beaten up by a tool thread…

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I could care less about your continuing saga anymore.

Now I am more interested in savannah505’s panty problems (I never thought I would see the word tampon on a woodworking forum – nothing personal ladies), FedSawDave’s soap opera: now there is a saga, and I also wonder if Hrolf and pitchnsplinters like cake.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Update

Here are the emails:

Adam,

We have tried to contact you both through email and have left a reply to your posts on the internet as well. On both sides of this we are aware that a resolution must be met and we are attempting to contact you again to reach this resolve. As we have offered before we can work on getting this saw fixed or we can have both saws picked up and issue you a refund. Please let us know what it is you would like to do.

Thank you,

Roman Snell

Roman,

I have no doubt that you have been following my post as well as the postings of others on the Lumber Jocks forum. Paul and I have stated very specifically what we are and are not willing to accept as a resolution to the issues that we have faced over the past several months. For your sake I will repeat them in this email in order of most desired outcome.

1) I would rather keep the machine and have it repaired and calibrated than to receive a refund as I am in desperate need of a machine. However, you should have no doubt as to my unwillingness to sacrifice my expectations of owning a machine that will provide repeated accuracy and durability throughout the many future years of use.

2) I will not accept any remedy that involves further calibration or repair at the expense of my time or money. You will have to send someone to do the work at no cost to me.

3) A full apology for the inconveniences suffered by me as a result of delayed service and faulty equipment.

4) Reimbursement of a dollar amount to be determined for lost wages and the time spent working on these machines. I understand that a certain amount of time is expected to calibrate a machine of this nature. This process could and would have been expedited if proper documentation had been provided and technical support would have been timely. You can also expect of me full cooperation as to the nondisclosure of any agreed reimbursement as I know this will open Laguna Tools up to those looking to take advantage.

5) If Laguna Tools is not willing to fulfill my prior request for repair then, I would expect an immediate refund of all monies paid to Laguna Tools for both machines and this should include shipping. This will free up a certain amount of money with which I can make the replacement purchase necessary for the continuation of my occupation.

6) After a refund is provided you may at your desired scheduling remove both of your machines from my premises and regain their possession to do with as you please.

Once an agreement is reached I would be willing to make a statement on all active forums as to the provision of your satisfactory service. It will not include an apology from me for any truth written as a result of my negative experiences with Laguna Tools. As well, unless all requested resolutions are met, I will make no promises written or stated as to the discontinuation of any threads started regarding Laguna Tools service. This is an experience from your company must prove that it has, for future purposes, changed its behavior.

I wish to make it clear that I do not intend any ill will towards Laguna Tools and will even offer my help or service, within reason, that you in the future should wish to ask of me regarding quality control and/or other means of business propagation. I will, at your request or permission, even post to the above mentioned forums this new relationship in an attempt to aid in the regaining of any lost profits as a result of my previous postings. From this you will be revealing to any previous and future customers your commitment to provide quality machinery and exemplary service.

I will be looking forward to your response with either an acceptance of my proposal or a counter. Please, in order to avoid further delay, state clearly all intentions.

Sincerely,

Adam M Raisch

Adam,

In light of the postings on the forum and your feelings toward our company and product we feel it would be better for both parties to part ways and issue you a full refund. The refund will include all charges for the machines and shipping. We will have our shipping company come to pickup the machines at no charge to you. The machines should be fully crated and ready for pickup when the shipping company arrives. Once the machines our back to us our accounting department will issue you the refund. If you have any questions you can contact us at anytime.

Thank you,

Roman Snell

Again “in there words” willing to work with me” and then not so willing to work with me. Both emails were sent days after the post had started.

AR-15, I could not and would not read past your “Ultimatum #4”. Ridiculous.

Yeah, “willing to work with” then you play post Nazi like a scorned woman (sorry ladies but I try not to scorn your gender)

If I were Mr. Snell, I’d have sent the same e-mail. Enough is enough. Take the damn refund PLUS SHIPPING COST and go on your way or hire an attorney (you won’t find one…they’d laugh) and you’ll get nothing.

Due to the current economic conditions, “As the Lathe Turns” has been replaced by the reality show:
“Americans Sit Idol.” A lot cheaper to produce and quite frankly, after this thread….we know who the Idol Sitters are.

COMING TO A THEATER THIS SUMMER~~~SELF RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION…THE MOVIE
(This movie is not yet rated)

As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say… “Good Day.”

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

In all seriousness, I would say it was your email response that changed their attitude. He probably put in that part about the thread because he didn’t appreciate you taking the issue to a public forum to bash his company. Nobody likes to listen to a list of demands, even if they are in the wrong…especcially a large corporation. You have to remember that even though you may be right and the saw is messed up and they owe you satisfaction, they still have the upper hand in the situation…and they certainly showed that with their final response.

I like pie too…with cake on top!
EDIT: Oh and Fedsaw..you are really showing your age(and your feminine side) with that Luke marrying Laura comment..lol!

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

I am beginning to wonder Mr. Retail Business Owner and Seller of Woodworking Tools and Machines, if you are even able to make and intelligent post. I have been asking for compensation from the very beginning and yet that has not stopped you from reading up until now!

As the late, great Paul Harvey also used to say… “and that’s the rest of the story”.

Brad Nailor- Wow you can write with some intelligence. Thank you!

Since they have, up to this point, failed to provide a decent level of customer service I was giving them a list of possible remedies and that is why I welcomed a counter. That is part of nagotiation. They could have said, ” ok we will send someone out to fix it” or “we will send someone to crate it up and take it off of your hands.” Something better than we as usuall will ignore you and then do our own thing. It does not shock me.

When they sent me the machine they told me that they would throw iin a saw blade for free. When I got the blade the hole for the arbor was the wrong size. In an attempt to satisfy me they offered more blades.
I asked if they could send two out asap. They did not send that until they sent the belts 2 months later.
And I asked for 2 blades and needed one belt (which they recommended) for the scoring blade. They sent me 1 blade and two belts and neither belt was for the scoring blade!

Cake is good too…. I mean look at my pic does it look like I am pastrist(SP?, or is it even a word? LOL)

LET THEM EAT CAKE!!!!!......

FEDSAW… AR-15 I like that one.

On a serious note AR, In all honesty from reading the emails it seems that you are the one the threw the wrench in Laguna working with you. Roman sites your posting on this board. I would tell you that I would create up the machines and send it back get your money and go buy a quality machine.

Also it seems like they were trying to accommodate you with sending you saw blades and belts and such.. unfortunately incompetence on the part of the service folks at Laguna got in the way… Good intentions bad execution but at least the attempt seemed to be there.

In summery, Cake and Pie are equals and should be enjoyed equally, maybe not at the same time or the waste line may suffer but then who am I to judge. And finally in the words of the Steve Miller Band… “Take the money and Run”

-- Hrolfr

“In summery, Cake and Pie are equals and should be enjoyed equally, maybe not at the same time or the waste line may suffer but then who am I to judge. And finally in the words of the Steve Miller Band… “Take the money and Run””

Cake > Pie
Pancake > Waffles
if the word has “cake” in it, it wins!

-- My signature is awesome.

Yeah, I’m the dumb one right…but I’m not stuck with 2 saws because of my mouth….Go figure.

I think Henny Yougman said it best:

“Take my saw…please!”

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Ar…. First off Believe me I would be sooo pissed off also… But one thing concerns me .
I looked up your past history with LJS and it seems that you just joined 7 days ago ??? and the only topic you’ve posted is about this problem you’ve encounterd = It seems to me that you used LJS to air out your laundry with Laguna Tools ? (you’ve posted 66 remarks in 7 days all on this subject)

I have no problem with that but I would think that one would first become part of this Great family of woodworkers , then post a topic like this.

I would love to see something you’ve done and something positive ??

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

“Something better than we as usuall will ignore you and then do our own thing. It does not shock me.”

If they were ignoring you they wouldn’t even respond to your emails. You can’t expect any company to listen to your rediculous demands.

The return of merchanidse is NOT a nagotiation. A return is a return. Nothing more. Maybe Laguna should “nagotiate” with their lawyers on sueing you for slander. Maybe then you will finally put this thing to rest. Geez this has gone on too long now. I can totally understand now how you have been out of a working saw for so long. You just like to drag things on. Start to turn your fingers around and point them at yourself.

-- Let there be sawdust

Can we delete this insidious rant from this website. It,s for woodworkers not WOODWHINERS

WOW this is just stupid!!!
I have absolutely no time to read everyones posts, but in skimming over a few of them it seems like a lot of wasted time commenting when everyone could be in their shop woodworking!

I’m not going to pick a side, but it seems both sides of the commentors have merit. ARaisch, I see your point about wanting more than a simple refund. Clearly the product was unacceptable and cost you time and money. I can even see your point about getting money from Laguna for loss of work, but there is a big caveat to that. You set yourself up for this situation too. You relied solely on Laguna tools for the completion of the project and as buisness owners should know you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. These kind of sitautions can and do happen. It’s sad and unfortunate when it does happen, but part of me thinks you should have been more prepared for the posibilities that you could be unsatified with the product or that it would have problems. It would be nice if Laguna made some sort of compensation gesture, perhaps a gift card or drastic discount on other products.

I think you do raise a good point though, the public of today seem almost to willing to accept crap service and products without question. That is sad too, there are many reputable companies out there that if you ask them will bend over backwards to make you happy and satisfied. Good buisnesses (particularly in woodworking) stay in business because of their reputation for quality and service. That’s exactly why Laguna tools responded to the post.

ARaisch, Don’t think that your posting on this site, got the offer on it’s own. I emailed Torben Helshoj and told him to check out the thread. He did, and you got your offer. You weren’t, and aren’t going, to get a better one and you should have taken it then. I feel for you man, but as the song goes ” You gotta know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, and when to run”. You should have taken the offer and ran, then complain afterwards.

-- -JimmyC...Clayton,NC- "Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave"

Well you know what Araisch, go away, it looks like you joined this site to bitch, you have no projects and all your doing now is being insulting to people. There’s a great bunch of guys here, and most are, we don’t need your kind here. You owe everyone an apology. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!

-- Dan Wiggins

Ar… I agree with Savannaha 505 =what you said about this site having so few adults!!!!
I find very insulting most of us are very deplomatic about what we have to say and Post . After taking an hour to read all the bull you wrote I find you to be Very Childish and RUDE!!!!
I take offense to the fact that the 1st day you joined You USED LJS to air your dirty Laundry with Laguna tools and to bash some LJS members !!!!
It seems to me that you used this Great Forum to publicly intimitade Lugauna tools for your own selfish needs = With that being said I think YOU owe All of the LJS members a BIG APOLOGY !!!!

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

Spelling correction I Missed that one =Intimidate

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

Wow. Quite a thread indeed.

Oddly enough, what hits me in the face like a ton of bricks through all of this does not have anything to do with the Laguna issue at hand. What is so glaringly inappropriate, is the way a business owner posts vile and offensive remarks to his potential customer base. I just don’t get it. As a business owner myself, I would never, EVER consider making such “over-the-top” pronouncements to my patients – privately or publicly. I might think them, but I would never say them….much less put those thoughts in text. At best, it makes Dave look bitter….at worst, it runs off business.

My $.02.

-- Woodworking is not a destination....it's a joinery !!! http://smilesrus.com/pages/woodgallery.html

D

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Dear Molar, I’ve been in biz for 25 years, 25 successful years. If some flame thrower on a forum wants to attempt to feed me crap, I’ll give it right back so save the “bitter” bull-Spit. So you’ve read through this ENTIRE post and that’s all you get huh.

An entire company trashed on the word of what most seem to think is some moronic malcontent and that’s what you get?

Believe me, after this amount of time in biz, no forum will make or break a company. As a matter of fact, see Laguna!

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Geesh ARaisch, it was a little attempt at humor. I really don’t have an side except that everyone has made their point many times over. You’re both right and wrong and you both lose, sad. Are you going to attack everyone?

“Would you post a bed making story on the review thread? This site has one of those you know! I posted there too! There is also a video section, and a blog section, and a home page, and a contest section! What I am trying to say is that there are a lot of other places you could be. You might even do some good there Ol’ Danny Boy!”

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

I learned a lesson a few years ago from a grassroots activist. He said give your opponent a problem he doesn’t know how to solve. After all if you lawyer up they know exactly know what to do—turn it over to their lawyer. I bought a very expensive garage door for a new home about 15 years ago and in the pre-closing walk thru I spotted splits in it I shut off the lights and used a black marker to mark them. I turned on the lights and counted more than 70 splits. I threatened lawyers and I contacted the local newspaper problem solving column and the builder was immune to that. Then I tried to come up with something that would get their attention and it was the simplist of things. I changed the message on my voice mail and it went like this..”Hey, hello (sound of hammers and drills) Sorry I cannot come to the phone but the builder put a defective garage on our new home (more hammers) and (dropped wood) and he won’t make it good. Look out for that wood hanging down….” Then I called the builder’s office secretary and suggested that she call my number and listen to my voice mail greeting. I hung up and the phone rang. Then in quick succession there were three more calls that listened to the greeting and hung up. The builder’s office called and said they would replace the door. I had to call the builder’s office to work out a few details and the secretary told me “My boss would fire me if he knew I said this, but you are the first disgruntled customer that has ever contacted us with a problem and had it resolved to their satisfaction.” I don’t know who he thought called my home, but it was something he didn’t know how to fix so he fixed the door. Now that kind of problem-solving is fun!

-- If she asks please tell my wife that I can sell my tools for what I paid, okay?

FEDSAWDAVE wrote:

Dear Molar, I’ve been in biz for 25 years, 25 successful years. If some flame thrower on a forum wants to attempt to feed me crap, I’ll give it right back so save the “bitter” bull-Spit. So you’ve read through this ENTIRE post and that’s all you get huh.

An entire company trashed on the word of what most seem to think is some moronic malcontent and that’s what you get?

Believe me, after this amount of time in biz, no forum will make or break a company. As a matter of fact, see Laguna!

Now I reply:

Dave -

I certainly would not expect (nor want) an Internet forum to “break” your company. My point was that most business owners go out of their way to demonstrate restraint and tact in public (a certain decorum, if you will) as the owner’s public actions/speech create perceptions of the company in question.

Woodworking forums are replete with complaints about Laguna’s customer service, so the reports here do not surprise me. So, in a way, yes, “that’s all I get”.

-- Woodworking is not a destination....it's a joinery !!! http://smilesrus.com/pages/woodgallery.html

moderator- time to end the thread?

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

Daniel wrote-

“moderator- time to end the thread?”

In the name of all that’s holy…..PLEASE!!!!

-- Dave, Colonie, NY

Lumberjocks seems too be falling further and further down my links list. Please end thread, it just keeps popping up on the home page. Not a fan of censorship, this seems personal, let them pmail.

AR15
I know you heard my 2 cents…well here is my 4 cents. I’m fairely new here so am aware my thoughts don’t carry much weight. But I’m here to learn from the pros as at this point in my life I am able to chase my dreams. But your whining has taking up so much of the forum that could have been put to good use as I would assume that even you have some good things to offer!

I know that you have already been given the boot on at least one other forum. Don’t we have a moderator on this forum that can do the same thing? That will do the same thing, so we can all get back to business?

I won’t say that I don’t feel for your problems, but even as an old man, if I had the problem that you have I would get off of my but and get a job instead of whining, especially if I had a family or any else depending on me. I can only guess at the hours of the day that you waste complaining when you could and should be making a buck. Or are you doing these things while sitting at the wellfare office waiting your turn.

This is still America for better or worse, and there are jobs out there to be had for THOSE Willing to work!

Smokey

AR, you asked if I was satisfied with the overall service from Laguna. I guess, the issues I had with the miter and miter fence were relatively minor. I would have to say that overall, my experience was not all that bad. I did receive replacement materials without hassle. All I really was asking for initially was a miter fence that was beveled for the tilt of the saw blade. Laguna sent me an entire miter/fence assembly.

On another topic, I am new to LJ. So a little background, I started in woodworking, as a hobby some 30 years ago or more, with my original shop in an old shed that was maybe 12’x12’. After 14 years I was able to move my tools into a room in the basement that was approx. 11’x22’. I have since grown out of that space and for over the past 4 years, I have been building a workshop that is close to being finished (my future retirement home outside of home). It measures 28’x42’ overall, with 1/3 of the space used to house my car. The remaining 2/3 will be dedicated to woodworking. In the corner of that space, is a 11’x11’ room for a clean-room/office for finishing. And there are two 4’x6’ rooms at the back wall for utilities (vacuum system, air compressor and electrical). So the remaining space is an “L” shape that is 28’ (28’x17’) in one direction and 24’ (24’x17’) in the other. I do not have all my machinery in there yet and am afraid it is going to be tight. Just looking for suggestions for machinery layout and any ideas I should be considering (i.e., air-lines, vacuum-lines, efficiency, etc.). thanks.

Too many angry and/or dysfunctional people here. It’s disappointing!
Guess I’m too highminded, but I sure am uncomfortable with all this invective going on around me. I want my woodworking experience to be something that lifts me above the hue and cry of angry, ill-minded individuals….I thought LJ would get me there…I thought wrong.
I do sympathize with anyone who has a bad experience with a machinery manufacturer, however.

-- If Stradivarius was alive today, he'd be using Gorilla Glue.

I can’t believe this is STILL living on . . . my post on my best asset (my wife in supporting me and my hobby) had Biblical passages denoting why I believe I’m blessed and my posting was gone in a few hours. Here someone has decided to lambaste a company on what appears to be a multitude of different forums, and it’s raised to company damaging levels.

I take any reports or issues with a grain of salt, because EVERYONE hears when someone has a problem, especially when you can share on the Internet, but how many on here have had good experiences with products/services/etc… that nobody bothers to tell about? How many people have had good experiences with a product? Those who have will rarely want to speak up when others are jumping on the bandwagon with flame-throwers and gasoline.

Just a little food for thought—but the big thing here is “religion, politics, and completely over-the-top company whine sessions” should all be nixed. Hmm.

-- Bradley Miller, Blue Springs, MO - http://myoldgarage.blogspot.com

MODERATOR, WAKE UP AND END THIS POST, NO ONE WANTS IT ANYMORE, REMOVE THIS POST OR I AND OTHERS WILL GO ELSEWHERE !!!!!

If it bothers you so much, don’t read it. I don’t like it either, but guess what. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

-- Julian, Park Forest, IL

I totally agree with Julian. I do not think there is any need to delete this thread. Plus, I don’t think threatening Martin will do much good either. Or maybe we could delete the thread and replace it with one of tommyt654’s projects….... If you (and others, whoever they are) wish to go somewhere else, take off man.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

you guys don’t realize the severity of any moderator taking this thread off do you? this will make more damage than leaving this thread on and letting it die on it’s own… think of the negative critics LJ will get for deleting a certain thread/opinion/idea …. completely against free speech, and what this site is about… so lets not go that route.

sorry to hijack the original OP … but it seems like it has long gone other ways, and AR, I’m not even sure visits this site anyways…so here goes:

NOW – what I really find entertaining is all the people that post on this thread complaining that it’s still alive…. you guys DO realize that YOU are the ones keeping it alive by keep on posting to it right? so, either don’t post on it, and just dont read it, or if you do post – post something useful.

cheers, and chill… take from this post what can be taken, and learn what can be learnt (there are actually some good humane lessons to be picked up here in between all the entertainment stuff)

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

How is this thread still going?

Everyone time to give it up and move on to more important things.

I feel like I should go and make a bunch of you magic wine bottle holders, because the amount of whine in the thread it ridiculous!

And now on to more inspirational conversations – Check out this great carving http://lumberjocks.com/projects/16673
or this amazing inlay
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/16643

Very well said PurpLev.

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I cant believe this thread is still going on…..wait, its still going on because I am posting on it..so I guess I shouldn’t post…bu then how can I say I cant believe this thread is still going on without posting and keeping it going….

Wow, I am confused..I think I will go to a religious website and post some inspirational wood working story’s..

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Hmm . . . my father was a Jewish wood worker.

-- Bradley Miller, Blue Springs, MO - http://myoldgarage.blogspot.com

My father was a Catholic Steel worker…does that count?

Regards, The Red Sea

BTW, PurpLev for Mayor of LJville.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I still like pie and cake is good too….. pudding isn’t bad…. creme brulee is great

I like beef jerky too

-- Hrolfr

Well then, speaking of Beef Jerky and praising companies that do good for you, I buy all of my beef jerky at:

www.nbsmokehouse.com

The fine folks of New Braunfel, Texas make a really awesome product.

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Just gotta say it….nearly everyone in Texas are good folks

-- Gary, DeKalb Texas

Know what Gary….absolutely true. I bought a smoker several years ago from a local outdoor store. It was made in New Braunfel, Tx. I got it home and the only thing missing was the stainless steel temperature gauge, a very important part of the smoking process. I called the company in Texas at 4:00pm on a Thursaday and told them it was missing and had to use that smoker on Saturday. They overnighted one to me, received it on Friday and was smokin on the weekend.

I’ve purchased products from them ever since!

Texas folks rock!

BTW, never smoked pie on that thing….

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I would rather be counting wrinkles on my dog’s balls then continue to …

-- Just 'cause a cat has kittens in the oven, it don't make 'em biscuits.

then? then what? do you mean than? i didn’t know there were wrinkles on a dogs’ balls. thanks for the tip. we need more people keeping up with that kind of stuff….............

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

BTW, how many wrinkles does it have?

Waiting….....................

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I just noticed this was going again :-)) What a paradox; whining about whiners, or maybe it’s an enigma? :-)) :-)) :-))

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

FEDSAW, you were smoking on the weekend? I hope you also had a change to make something to eat ;)

Thanks for your vote…. btw – who am I running against? (gotta get some “sponsors” for the campaign)

Brad – you GOTTA BELIEVE!

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

I make my own jerky in my smoker….. smoked pie mmmmm maybe meat pie???

-- Hrolfr

Critiquing spelling / grammar? Finally something useful from this post. Thank you JrJock. I think this post ran it’s course somewhere around … who freaking cares anymore.

... back to counting wrinkles and smoking milkweeds.

-- Just 'cause a cat has kittens in the oven, it don't make 'em biscuits.

hrolfr….meat pie!...with cake for desert!

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Does anybody realize that ARaisch hasn’t posted in about 8 days ? :>)

-- -JimmyC...Clayton,NC- "Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave"

In the realms of threads spinning out of control…this one is a TOP!

I like wedding cake…other peoples wedding cake to be specific…

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Still waiting on the wrinkle count.

-- DocK, WV

The dog keeps licking himself. All I do is start over, and over, and over, ... a godforsaken vicious cycle. Thank goodness I like what I’m doing. I’ll get back to you once I get a dry spell.

-- Just 'cause a cat has kittens in the oven, it don't make 'em biscuits.

A quick update – I returned both machines which Laguna Fools received two weeks ago yesterday and they have yet to give me the refund that they told me they would. I have contacted an attorney who is beside himself as to what he thinks they are doing keeping the machines and my money. I have made plans to meet with him this week to review the communications between Laguna Tools and me and to establish a monitary value owed too me for the time lost in building the cabinets and dealing with this whole mess.

Another update- It has been almost two months now since Laguna Tools has received both machines and yet no refund. I got bank of america involved and they would not give me a credit because Laguna Fools is claiming that I ruined the machines upon returning them by leaving them out in the rain for several days. THAT IS WHY I ASKED THEM TO PICK THEM UP! I did not leave them in the rain first of all but, since I had to remove them from small shops in order to crate them they got rained on and instantly rusted I cleaned the water off the best I could but the damage was done. Believe me the only damage that could have been done for the amount of time they were exposed would be surface rust. But of coarse BofA is taking their side and told me that I would have to prove to them the machines were not ruined! HUH? Yah i’ll get right on that?

What I am asking now is that anyone who has had poor servise or believes to have beened ripped off from Laguna Tools since they were in business to email me at adammraisch@comcast.net so that we can discuss a class action lawsuite

Thank you

Oh and buy the way I just noticed that Laguna Tools had a “D” rating with the BBB and in two cases refused to discuss the issue brought before them

Laguna Tools emailed me today after I attempted a phone conversation and they told me my only option was to have them ship me one of the machines back at my cost.

Laguna doesn’t have a review at resellerratings.com. I was just there to review Truckaddons whose customer service is nonexistant. They have the lowest rating possible, “1”. You might go there and write a review. Word needs to get out about these companies who take your money and never deliver.

-- Debt is nothing more than the 21st Century's form of slavery.

I am new to this forum but it is clear to me that you this has been blown way out of porportion. There are always 2 sides to every story and I have a different opinon on the service that I have recieved from Laguna Tools. My 16HD, TSS Tablesaw and the new combo machine that I have on oder have all been perfect for me and any time I have had an issue it has been taken care of for me. Not always as quick as I want but they were always upfront with me about timing and other matters. It sounds to me like the world is piling on ARaisch and his issues are becoming Lagunas issues. Come on people are you serious. If ARaisch has a real compaint then let him go about this in a big boy manner and stop bashing a company that is and continues to be good to 99% of us out here in the real world.