Finishing problem, need your help!

Kinda looks like the oil wasn’t completely dry. How long between coats?

-- Gary, DeKalb Texas

final sanding after 30 hours

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

I’m guessing you’re trying to rub out to a gloss finish. If you have access to it, watch wood works by David Marks. He has an episode where he rubs out the finish. He does exactly like you do, except he continues to wet sand to about 1200, and then uses a powder, I believe rotten stone, not sure though to bring up the gloss.
I’ve never tried that finish your using, i have that article from fww, I use one similar to that, that is a Maloof finish. I use equal parts pure raw tung oil (not Formby’s) you have to use 100% pure raw tung oil, gloss polyuerethane(not spar), and Boiled linseed oil. I usually scrape or sand to 320 and then put on the first coat thick and let it sit for a few minutes and then wipe as much off as I can leaving a very thin layer. When that dries, usually 24 to 48 hours depending on weather, i’ll wipe on up to 4 or 5 more thin coats. If i don’t want a high sheen, i use satin poly in the mix for the last 2 coats. Then i’ll wax after all is dry. all of my trays are finished this way and working on a dining room table out of antique heart pine that i’m finishing this way.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

One other thing, you have to be careful using wax on open grain wood. the wax will fill the pore and holes and clump, briwax makes their wax in different shades to help hide this. the only other way around it is to fill the grain.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack for this, but here goes:

I’m always reading about these fancy multi-part finishing concoctions, involving multiple rounds of wet-sanding…waxing…you name it. Granted, some experts get great results with these methods which they’ve honed to a science over time. But, in my experience, if you had just sanded your surface down to 320 and applied a few coats of wipe-on poly, you’d have a better result than what you’ve got now, with a lot less hassle along the way.

Are you trying to get to a glass-smooth surface, or do you just want glossy, but with the grain still noticable to the touch?

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

thanks Joey, Charley,

I’m trying to get a glossy finish with the grain noticable at the touch.

I’ve to admit I did not use the 100% pure products that Joey is recommending, just the regular Minwax… brands available at HD. Maybe I should follow Charlie’s advise and buy a real good poly and stick with it, as I do not understand the reason of this concoction, just following what was written in the FWW article.

What brand would you recommend apart Minwax?

Also I’d prefer “going green” for my next finishing. Do you have some advise for a strong / water resistant finish?

While waiting for some advise, I tried to remove the wax w/ mineral spirit and applied a new coat… I’ll wait 3 days before rubbing it.

Laurent

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

Laurent, I use Minwax wipe-on poly, but I’ve heard mixing any name brand regular poly with 50% mineral spirits works just as well.

If you want a glassy finish on open-grained wood, starting with a pore filler is a good idea. I’ve used Behlens water-based with good success. Just follow the directions on the can.

Another way to obtain it is to apply several coats of the poly fairly thickly, then sand back with 320-400 grit, hard enough to actually remove some of the poly. What this does is allow the poly to fill in the grain. If you just keep adding coats without sanding, you will still feel the grain, so the intermediate sanding is crucial. You may find that you have to repeat the coating/sanding process several times until the surface reached the level of smoothness you’re looking for.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

You will get no flack from me Charlie, I mostly agree.

thanks Charlie.

I used spar urethane thinking it was close from a classic poly but with more uv protection (to keep the great padauk color a little bit longer). Was I right, is it comparable?

Also is using paint thinner instead of the mineral spirit you recommend change something?

If the 2 answers are ‘they are about the same’ (spar urethan / poly; paint thinner / mineral spirit), then it means that the only additional ingredients are tung oil (benefit ?) and japan drier to speed up the drying time.

Do you agree on that?

Thank you so much, I’m learning twice as fast since I registered to LJ!

Laurent

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

Spar is more of an exterior finish. Mainly for doors and some marine applications. Wipe on poly is the easiest to use, and you get good results. I don’t normally stain finer harwoods so I prefer using the blend. It’s easy and you get very good results. The look and feel is different, and I prefer it. I use the wipe on poly when I make something for someone else, except for this table I’m making, I really want it to stand out.
Laurent— most of the “tung oils” you buy at hd or lowes don’t even have real tung oil in them or have miniscule amounts. Pure tung oil and boiled linseed are penetrating oils, they soak into the wood and reveal the real beauty of the grain. The only drawbacks are that they take longer to dry, this is why I mix poly in, also blo has metallic driers in it. Real pure tung oil would take days or even weeks for the first coat to dry if you put just it on. The other drawback is that you can’t use them over stain. The stain has oil and driers in it and acts to seal to wood also the pigments sit on top of the wood.
I would suggest playing around with different finish until you find what you like. That’s all that matters. But wiping ok any finish will get better results most of the time. Spraying laquer and then rubbing it out to a high gloss is good, but can be slot of work. I don’t think 600 grit is high enough though to get a glossy finish. I would go with what Charlie says until you’ve practised more.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

Laurent, Joey knows his stuff. Finishing is an art form that you can spend many years perfecting. My method is pretty simple for us amateurs, and will give you pretty decent results. (If you check out my projects, all the ones with a glossy finish were achieved using the process I outlined above).

There are lots of more advanced methods that will give somewhat better results, but they do require some practice. I would suggest experimenting with smaller projects rather than putting a lot of work into something and then trying a finishing technique you’ve never used before.

Of course there is always the option to sand down and start over. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Thanks for the clarification about HD products, Joey. I’ll get better ingredients to try your blend as I don’t mind spending more time to get better results.

I’m pretty happy by the un-wax + new coat, the bright uniform color is back again but it’s not perfectly smooth as I’m now afraid of (wet) sanding.

Also what ingredient made the white maple turn yellowish? Would it stay white with better ingredients?

Charlie, you suggest that there are other methods. I don’t want to invest in a spraying gun, but is there any other way to get a resistant water proof finish? I’m still hoping to learn about a more ecologic solution…

Thanks,
Laurent

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

Any oil-based varnish product, as far as I know, is going to impart some degree of yellowness to a finished surface. Water-based poly will give you a cooler, clearer finish. Again, it’s something to experiment with.

As for an eco-friendly finish, pure walnut oil dries hard and offers good water resistance, but of course it will give you a satin finish, not a gloss. Probably the most tried-and-true environmentally sound finish is shellac. Here is a good article about it: http://www.hwblair.com/wood/shellac.pdf

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

My method of finishing is pretty straight forward and involves a Random Orbital Sander, some Scandinavian Oil as well as wet and dry sanding. (This oil will give a glossy finish with grain still available to the touch. China Wood Oil will give a satin finish)

I dry sand from 80g through 120,150,180,240 and 400g, then wipe the work piece down with Mineral Turps and let it dry.

Then I saturate the piece with oil, this usually requires about 2-3 coats over about 15-30 minutes.

Then I sand wet using the same 400g pad, followed by 500, 800, 1200,1500 and (if you can get them) 2000 and 4000g pads. I don’t remove any of the waste that you see while sanding. This tends to act as a grain filler. Ultimately, you are using friction to seal the oil into the wood.

Then all you need do is wipe with a soft cotton cloth, allow about 2-5 days for the oil to finally dry and then add the final finish of choice, e.g. Wax, Shellac, Wipe on Poly.
If you have a look at my projects, you will see how this method works out.

Regards,

Rob

-- http://www.damnfinefurniture.com

if you want a clear finish, I think polycrylic from minwax is clear. You can get shellac in different shades by not truly clear. Most want that amber color, it adds warmth to the piece.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

I now realize that starting woodworking at 40yo is just too late even though I spend 8 hours per day in my shop, there are so many specialties involved to master!

Anyway, here is a question about sealing and end grain. As a self-taught beginner, I did not really see the point of sealing before reading your comments here. But does sealing also prevent disgraceful over coloration of the end grain. Here is once again the example of my desktop: the white maple breadboard end grain is very visible as it’s on each side of the front edge. And look at these pictures: they have absorbed too much of my yellowish finish. How could I have prevented this?

Another question about breadboards: I’ve placed them (glue in the middle + screws) before wiping on the finish. When the top expands, will the poly crack between the top and the breadboards or will it expand? My understanding is that I should have finished just with oil or a finish that is ‘elastic enough’ but I needed a resistant & water proof finish. Is it a paradox that cannot be resolved?

Thanks,
Laurent

Over coloration of the end grain:

Breadboard, will the finish crack? :

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

Rob, I like the finish you show at burrellcustomcarpentry.com and I’ll try it if I can get some high grit sand paper for a reasonable price.

I also like the design of the table you blog about, especially the frame and mixing grain directions. I see you account for wood movement but do you glue all the edges? or just some parts to allow movement?

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

Laurent, that table looks great. I think what happend with the end grain is uneven sanding. End grain is more like a sponge. The cells are more open there and will absorb more stain and finish. There are 2 ways around this, you can snd the end grain to a higher grit. Sanding to a higher grit will cause the wood to absorb less stain or finish. If you sand to 180 the wood will absorb more than if you sanded to 320.
I’m not sure how you sand. When I sand I use a random orbital up to 220 or 320 and then do a final sanding of the entire surface with a block, usually mdf, with 320 double sided taped to it. This will remove any scratches and even it out. You can use a raking light, a bright light at a low angle, to look across the piece and see any uneven places. You’ll find that you spend as much time finishing as you do designing and building.
I don’t sand much anymore, I use smoothing planes, scraping planes, and card scrapers. i like the feel of the wood better. sanding actually tears the wood fibers, while planing and scraping cut it.

I don’t think the poly will crack. i way around this is to wipe the finish out of the crack. just keep and i on it. The expansion of the wood will be in different directions, 90 degrees to each other.

Another thing is you don’t have to screw breadboards, I do like the contrast they give to your wood. It looks great. You have enough glue surface to hold the ends on. You can do it 2 ways, either a through mortise like you did with stub tenons or stop mortises and stub tenons with the shoulders cut off. I’m doing a table now with through mortises. The way you used the 3 different types of wood is a way to add alot of interest. The plugs and tenons being the darkest wood but used sparingly looks great.

And you’re never too old to do something you like

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

Hi Laurent,
Thank you for the kind comments.
The finish on the blog table is exactly the same as described above.
As far as wood movement is concerned, I find that with the Domino at least, by cutting one of each pair of mortises wider than the other, there seems to be adequate space for movement within the system. I often leave the centre joints unglued in this type of construction as the external frame adds support. I made the table about 2 years ago and have had no problems with movement at all.
As far as bread board ends go, the same applies. Glue the inner pairs of tenons together and leave the outer pairs dry. This also seems to work well for me.

Regards,

Rob

-- http://www.damnfinefurniture.com

Joey, I did sand the end grain (320 or 400 grit) but w/out taking much care about achieving a uniform ultra smooth surface. This is a valuable lesson especially now that you’ve explained me what to do to avoid this.

Thanks also for your idea about bread board finishing theory and your comments on my design.

Rob, that’s what I did with my top: glue only the middle, but I was not sure what to do for a frame. thanks !

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

You can also use a Pre stain conditioner. This would help with the uneveness too

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

thanks Joey.

Question about wiping thickness: I’ve tried to wipe a thinner coat on the legs to avoid dripping on vertical sides.
So here are 3 questions I asked myself after working on it yesterday:

1 – how thin is thin?

Dipping the cloth into the liquid then squeezing it before applying leaves a minimal coat like humidifying the wood. Is it enough? If I apply only 3 coats like this (+ sanding between), there’s not a lot of finish on the wood. Should I then apply more coats (7 to 10)? Or is just that extremely thin film enough for areas like legs & aprons?

2 – dust

I know one cannot avoid dust. However with very thin coats, you’ve to almost remove the entire coat to get a smooth surface ?

3 – cleaning after wet sanding (with water or soap water)

wet sanding leaves traces I have trouble to clean, especially when it’s hot and it dries quickly. I tried cleaning with a lot of water but it takes forever (wash, dry, wash again, dry!)

Thanks as always for you help,
Laurent

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!

I don’t know about question #3, but I’ll take a stab at #1 and #2.

When wiping on a finish, the coat should be thin enough that running is not an issue. How many coats you need is sort of subjective, and can vary from one surface to another. The key is to keep applying coats until you get the appearance and feel you are looking for. I always use a light at a shallow angle to examine the entire surface for eveness. Once the whole thing has a uniform degree of reflectivity, you are fine.

Between coats, I personally find that a 320 grit sanding sponge is perfect for removing dust nibs. It seems to do the job without removing as much finish as sandpaper of the same grit.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I use 0000 steel wool to rub the surface down. Gives you good smoothness without leaving heavy scratchmarks. I have used sandpaper. 320 or 400 but I like the feel that you get using the steel wool.
With a wipe on finish just wipe on and wipe off. I would rather build 4 or 5 very thin coats than 2 or 3 heavy coats and take a chance on runs or glops.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

Thanks again Joey, Charlie, I’ll stay clear of the sand paper…

-- Only 7 months since I discovered woodworking... has done nothing else since!