Help me do the right thing here with a wood call back

Wow… it’s so sad that the burl was destroyed while you were turning it.

Edit: let me clarify what I am saying… if the person that GAVE this to you didn’t mention anything about a possible re-compensation down the line, I wouldn’t think twice about saying no to this situation. But, to soften the blow, and keep hostilities down, I would claim it is no longer whole.

-- San Diego, CA US Navy

Hmmmmm, tough call but here are my thoughts. Your acquatintance should have notified the lady that you two had consumated a deal, the fact that he obiviously failed to do this is not your problem. Since no request was made of you at that time of the exchange, I feel, you bear no responsibility of retuning the bowl, IMHO.
However, how much sentimental value does this bowl have for you? If you are not hard over about it, I would tell the acquatintance that you will gladly sell it back to him and that you expect your two bowls back or charge him for those as well. Or you could just forget about the two other bowls you provided. I guess it just depends on how you feel and how much of a relationship you have with this acquatintance?
Good luck with whatever you decide.

-- "You get what you inspect, not what you expect"

A very difficult one! – As I see it, as you have turned the burl, you have two choices.

1. Forget the mail, stating what you have stated here on LJ (no mention of working for a commission). Giving two bowls for receiving the burl, I would say was payment enough (hardly a lot of work to isolate that burl from a tree). How a burl can have sentimental value, I just do not know, if did why remove it or give it away in the first place?

2. Sell the turned burl back to them at the correct market price ($300, $400, $500???) for the work you have done, not forgetting the drying, design, turning, sanding, finishing processes.

I guess it depends upon how much you value the relationship with your acquaintance and should you decline to return it, would it put a strain on that acquaintanceship?

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

Depends on how much you value your friendship with this gentleman. But 6 or 7 years is a long time for you to have something and then to ask for it back. You are not a storage facility and he can’t expect you to keep things for such a long time and then return them. It does not work that way. I think there is a theory in law that covers you as far as not being required to return something that you thought was a gift and that you, in fact, actually paid for by giving two bowls. Secondly, I think there is even a time period, that once passed, makes it yours.

Maybe I’m missing the point. But I don’t think you have to give it back. You may want to, but you don’t have to.

Just my two cents.

-- You can't get a hug from Facebook.

I agree with Tony and Pat…. you have no moral obligation to do anything but ignore this request. But if you are not terribly attached to the piece, I would offer to sell it back for the fair market value of your labor on the burl, plus the fair market value of the two bowls.

Another option, if you’re so inclined, would be to ask for the lady’s contact info and approach her yourself. It sounds to me like your friend is trying to butter her up for some reason. Giving her the turning yourself would sort of cut him off at the knees. Bloodless revenge, if you will. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Not to sound like a jerk, but nobody ever said anything to you about her getting the burl back, especially now that you used your time and skills to turn it into a beautiful piece. And to ask this seven years later? I think that the person asking you to give this back is more than a little out of line. He should have made it clear to this woman that he gave the burl away, or he should have made it clear to you that she would have wanted it back when he was offering it to you. I guess i would email him back and say in a very nice way that when you accepted the burl he never told you she would want it back, and if you want to sell it back to her (thats up to you) then she will have to pay market price minus the material cost.

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Option A:

Well, just give her the bowl. The goodwill that it will generate will go miles for you on judgment day. Ignoring the mail, charging her for the bowl, saying no? There is an obvious misunderstanding…as to whose? It doesn’t matter. If you needed the cash, you could sell it, but I’m pretty sure you don’t. It might come down to an argument of who has the closer sentimental attachment to it, but frankly, that’s too intangible.

Option B:

Oh for Heaven’s sake. People just get more unreasonable every day. Her sentimentality to her husband is going to be fed by a tree? My only answer would be, “Uh, no. Thanks for calling. Stay in touch.” Trying to justify your position to deny a ridiculous request, only makes the whole thing even more ridiculous. I make a habit of getting VERY clear of knucklehead stuff.

Which option you would get from me? Well, Bob, you know as well as anyone, it depends on the day.

Cheers!

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Yup a hard one indeed… But 6 or 7 years is a very long time and what of the two bowls that you gave in exchange? Sounds like there could be three payments due you if you decide to give up the turning. Freinds just don’t do this sort of thing to friends. I have been there.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

I’m with everyone else- there is no obligation on your part to give anything back -especially now after 7 years – all of a sudden they “remembered” that they had plans for this piece? give me a break..

BUT, with that said – it is all about how you want to handle it? following reason? or following your heart? in any other case, I’d prob follow my heart, and give it back, for a set price (market value), but in this case- it just sounds bit off that this requests comes in after such a long time… I’d have somewhat of a hard time accepting it as genuine and sincere… I’d prob. keep the piece and say out front and clear – “this was never discussed, nor accepted, sorry”

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Since you referred to this person as an aquatance and not a friend I would be offended to start with. I have a strict definition of the two and would not expect such a request unless it were friend or family. I also don’t see how she finds sentimental value in this piece of wood, (only we woodworkers would!). Therefore, explain how ludicrous such a request is. TMO!!

-- Jed,Ala,jmwoodworks057.com

Reply,
Thank you for getting back with me about this piece. The best offer that I’ve recieved for it has been $5000.00. I did not sell it however because I’ve always known (just had this funny feeling) that someday she would want it. I know… 6 or 7 years is a long time but …. now knowing “It has sentimental value associated with her late husband.” I’m really glad that I’ve hung onto it.

Please have her forward a check for the above amount plus shipping, and I’ll get it out to her right away.
Oh and please have her include the address she would like it shipped to.

Thanks again and next time don’t wait so long to say hi.
Yours truly,

7 years later they come with this story?? sounds weird!
If you finally decide to price the bowl and send it to her, DO NOT FORGET TO PRICE THE OTHER TWO BOWLS you gave to your aquitance and his helper!!!!

-- Francisco Luna, San Francisco Bay Area.

My initial reaction was there there’s something in it for HIM. Burls go for a BIG amount of money at the local wood shop here in STL. While I see the idea behind people questioning the idea that a tree can have sentimental value, I also see the sentimental value in a tree as I have a cedar tree that I planted at my Fathers house 30+ years ago, dug up by my Grandfather and I. I’m very protective of that tree, even though if it was cut down, there’s NO value to the little bit of wood in it. (translated, I couldn’t get a decent project out of it if I wanted to)

6-7 years later though? I don’t get this, there’s something fishy for sure, otherwise I’d think you could contact the woman directly and tell her whatever you wish. You had a deal with the guy you got the burl from, your deal was made and it’s over with.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

Ric is thinking like me…. there is something fishy here. Too bad Paul Harvey is no longer around to give us the rest of the story.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I think you are in the driver’s seat on this Bob. I’m assuming that you would be willing to sell this bowl for the right price?? It sounds to me like someone is offering to buy the bowl, and their sentimentality shouldn’t really be part of the equation. He does say “with your permission” and “pay the value of the turning”. I have to say, it is an odd way to ask to buy something.

Here’s how I’m thinking about it … let’s say I buy some lumber (buying is basically the same as trading, you exchange one thing of value for another thing of value) and I build a table with the lumber, and the next time my salesman stops by my shop, he says, “Wow, that’s a beautiful table! It’s hard to believe that wood was once on our floor as rough lumber. I’d like to buy that from you.” I’d say, “Sure, it’s $xxx.” The fact that the lumber came from him wouldn’t really play into the pricing.

Maybe your friend(?), being a lousy communicator, failed to convey to you that the woman wanted to commission you to turn her burl, and maybe he assumed the bowls you gave him were a “thank you” for hooking you up with some business.

So I think I’d tell the guy, “Look, that was never the arrangement, but if someone were to bring me a burl like this to turn for them, I would charge $xxx, and I would be willing to sell it back for that.” Or, “Look, that was never the arrangement. I paid for the burl with a couple of finished bowls. I will sell this bowl to you or anyone else for $xxx.”

Or, if you are not willing to let it go, “Look, that was never the arrangement. I paid for the burl with a couple of finished bowls. I’m sorry if you promised it back to the lady, but you never conveyed that to me, and I wouldn’t have accepted the burl if I knew you had made that agreement. I’m giving this to my favorite neice for her birthday.”

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

I see it from a different perspective, as in, this has all the ear-marks of a BS scam.
I would tell the acquatintance that if the grieving widow wants the bowl then she should contact you directly and you will be happy to give her the non negotiable price, assuming you want to part with it, and that the acquatintance is now out of the picture. If you don’t want to sell/part with the piece, tell them to have a coke and a smile.

Personally, I wouldn’t give them the air in a bottle

-- .

Thanks to all who responded. I helped me write this difficult response back:

“I of course had no idea that when you gave me that burl that there would be strings attached to it beyond me giving your and your buddy finished turnings shortly after your dropped it off.
Had I not spent approximately 20 hours repairing the cracks with epoxy and turning the form to maximize it’s esthetic value and subsequently finishing it with 12-14 coats of nitrocellulose lacquer plus polishing to a glass finish, it would simply be matter of returning “the wood”.

Some how I doubt that this nice lady would be interested in the original material as it was presented to me,
I will agree that it has perhaps gained substantial value as a result of my work on it. None the less, it is that work that is in question at this point.
To be honest with you a turning of this size and finish sells today for $900.00 to $1800.00 in the U.S.
Check out a few galleries to be sure of what I’m telling you.

http://olandphoto.com/lissi.htm

I would be grateful to get back my time and materials from this work.
I estimate about 20 hours work at $25.00/hour.
It is substantially less than I would charge if the raw material (burl) was presented to me for turning and finishing.”

A few minutes ago I got a response.

They are going to pay me for my time and take the vessel for a keepsake.

It looks like everyone is happy now.

Bob

Regards

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I’m surprised, frankly. And if all you are given is the $500 you quoted for your time, they are still getting over on you.

File this under “People sure are funny”.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Congratulations on your sale… I hope you are happy with the outcome.

-- San Diego, CA US Navy

I agree with Charlie, and hope you are getting more than just the $500 for your time alone.

BUT, if you’re satisfied with this arrangement – nothing else matters :) cheers and lets move on to the next project.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Either way, it is beautiful work and if you hadn’t posted this thread, I wouldn’t have seen it. glad things worked out.

Ok, here I am with a possibly unpopular viewpoint. You should do what makes you comfortable but for most people the first picture of a piece of what looks like diseased wood would be something that goes in the woodstove. Now, to you it was a diamond in the rough so, if you decided to give it back you should be well compensated for your work. If someone gave you some tubes of paint and a canvas and you made a beautiful (professionally done) painting with it and they asked for it back in whatever condition it was now in, would you charge them just $10 for the paint and canvas?

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful. http://web.me.com/deceiver6/Deceiver/Craftsman_on_the_lake/Craftsman_on_the_lake.html

Holy Moly Bob…...........pocession is 9/10ths of the law.

Curious if your friend has stayed intouch over the last 7 years or if they just showed up,...in the ladder event I doubt they were ever your “friend”....................Sorry but I would keep it.

I turned a spalted, figured red maple burl and quite liked the end result. When my wife’s friend from out of town showed up…............the bowl went missing. I called and asked if she stole it and she said she did and I asked for it back and she complied. Two years later I mailed her the bowl as after time passed and albeit she didnt go about it the right way, I figured she must have liked it more then me.

I guess we should follow our heart.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

nice one roman ;)

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

I’m in the wrong part of woodworking…

-- He said wood...http://hickbyassociation.blogspot.com/

Well….it was a tough decision to make and as long as your happy with the outcome, thats all that matters. She is getting a hell of a deal, speaking just from the relative value of the finished piece and you just being compensated for your time spent.
Your a better man than I Roman….I don’t take kindly to people that steal from my home…It would have been one thing if she really expressed an interest in having it but didn’t steal it…then I might have given it to her as a gift, but to reward bad behavior….sounds like a stimulus package to me!

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Bob,
Ethically you are not bound to return the bowl. The only thing you would have to return is the burl itself, but that no longer exists. Deontological ethics would demand that you return a burl, the same size and value as the one that was “given” to you. Situational ethics would demand that your buddy pay you for the return of the bowl, plus expenses and intrinsic value.

If you are happy with the result, than that is all there is to it. I think that bowl is absolutely stunning, and as a turner myself know how much work went into that gorgeous piece of art.

But, all’s well that ends well.

-- Chip -- Manchester, Connecticut "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

You people are the most supportive group of folks in the world. Collectively you have covered every thought I have had since this rather bizarre situation began to unfold.

I hope I made the right decision and that all concerned are happy.

In life there are really no winners or losers , just people trying to make it past one obstacle after another. Often we can remove some of those obstacles without loosing anything ourselves.
I am hoping that is what happened today.
Good on everyone of you and thank you for being my conscience.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I for one would be damm sure of the money in hand before I sent the bowl off. I mean cash not the check. I had a buyer for a piece of equipment that I was selling and the cashiers check was bogus, he had the nerve to yell that I cheated him until the law got no him.

-- Richard http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=thewizz

Bob, IMHO, you were the only person in is this situation to act with the proper morals, you sir are very standup, what I call a “good egg”. I admire your behaviour in this instance, class act on your part.

-- "You get what you inspect, not what you expect"

I second the good egg appraisal that 3fingerpat provided. Of course I already knew that of you, Bob.

I think according to Mark 10:25, you just manufactured about a cubic liter of Camel grease as well.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

Dougie you are a very sharp kinna guy. Got to keep my targets hidden from now on. <g>

3fingerPat, I have always thought that this a a trip that we are all on and that the more folks that enjoy it the happier we can all become.

No greater thrill than a person thrilled by your small efforts.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Funny, Doug. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I agree, there is something really strange with waiting 7 years and then a “Oh by the way the lady wants her bowel” I might ask for the ladies phone # and give her a call, coarse your “friend” may not be able to or want to give you the number. The two bowels you gave should be payment in full. If a customer left a piece in your shop for 7 years then one day stoped in to pick it up would you have obligated to save for them that long?

-- Bob, Rockford IL, http://www.woodandwax.net

Doug,
I think it would have been a cubic cubit.

Bob, congratulations on going above and beyond what you were obligated to do. Most people are satisfied to just meet their minimum obligation to society, but you handled the situation with class.

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

Oh, and I usually try to keep my mouth shut about spelling errors … but I have to point out that there is a huge difference between “bowl” and “bowel”! :)

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

I appreciate the thread because now I know what a burl looks like in the wild.

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

Bowl, bowel they can both hold the same thing. Sorry guess I’ve worked in healthcare to long

-- Bob, Rockford IL, http://www.woodandwax.net

You took the high road for sure. If you are satisfied, that is probably the best outcome. I have learned objects that are fought over become tainted in a way. You no longer see the beauty in them, but rather the hard feelings.

-- A thing of beauty is a joy forever...