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Lacquer, did I miss something?

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Forum topic by dob posted 12-24-2014 12:40 AM 1043 views 0 times favorited 17 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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dob

2 posts in 710 days


12-24-2014 12:40 AM

My wife and I are in the process of a kitchen remodel. We had the cabinets installed last week and have been staining and finishing them over the last few days.
I’ve read and watched so many different ways to finish, that I think I may have gotten confused.
Here’s what we have done so far -
The cabinets are poplar. We started with wood conditioner. Then stained with minwax stain. so far so good. Nice even color. Better than we expected.
This is where I think I goofed. Using a spray gun, I applied Deft brushing lacquer Satin, thinnned by 10%. It all took about an hour or so to cover everything. By the time I was done, it was dry enough to do a second coat. Then I went back and hit the doors and fronts three more times with unthinned lacquer. I was putting it on thin as to not get orange peel or drips.
It all looks good, but it doesn’t have that thick coating look to it. You can still feel some of the grain. We are concerned about lasting protection. Did I skip a step, or is this normal?


17 replies so far

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

115201 posts in 3037 days


#1 posted 12-24-2014 01:33 AM

Brushing lacquer is already thinned you shouldn’t need to thin it. Try a test without thinning on a sample.
Other than that it may be your spraying technique.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

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NoThanks

798 posts in 989 days


#2 posted 12-24-2014 01:56 AM

By the time I was done, it was dry enough to do a second coat. Then I went back and hit the doors and fronts three more times with unthinned lacquer.

- dob

I read your process.
I don’t use the Deft, but being that it is a brushing lacquer it probably doesn’t have very high solids, (one reason why it doesn’t need to be thinned) meaning that it will take more coats to get a good build. I would take a drawer front that is off the beaten path and see how many coats it takes to get the desired feel.

I use a pre-cat lacquer and it builds up nice with only 3 coats, sometimes I put on 4.
I used to put on about 6 coats of the regular nitrocellulose lacquer and it has more solids than the brushing lacquers.

Your going to get a lot of different answers, best bet is to experiment. You need to give them a good wet coat, lay them flat if possible.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3926 posts in 1953 days


#3 posted 12-24-2014 12:58 PM

I’m not trying to play Grinch, but if “lasting protection” is what you need you would have been better off with almost anything else for a finish. NC lacquer has a low solids content (the thin coat you noticed) and won’t hold up very well in a kitchen.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

1056 posts in 1449 days


#4 posted 12-24-2014 01:17 PM

Agree with others. Lacquer doesn’t build a lot of film thickness, and Deft has even less solids. It will not provide the protection really needed for kitchen cabinets. I think you could put coats of pre cat lacquer over the Deft (someone please chime in if you have experience with this), which will provide a much more abrasive and chemical resistant finish. Try it on a piece of scrap. All finishes “shrink” as the solvents flash off. Different finishes take different times. It typically takes a couple of days before a finish shrinks down close to what it will look like after full cure.

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Wildwood

1881 posts in 1594 days


#5 posted 12-24-2014 02:28 PM

My simple rule of thumb is buy quality finishes. Gloss and semi gloss have a sheen that reflects light and seem to shine while flat has very little sheen. Gloss finishes easy to clean, low gloss takes little bit more effort.
Downside to gloss makes imperfections more obvious!

With Deft lacquer each coat melds into coat below it. You might try what Iwud4u had to say on a draw front. Or get a can of Deft semi or gloss and try that.

Think pre-cast lacquer about the standard for kitchen & bathroom cabinets these days just do not have any experience with it.

I have use Deft and always use gloss or semi but never sprayed it on. Also almost always rub out final finish. In old days used oil & pumice these days use water & micromesh. Never rubbed out cabinets though not sure would want too!

-- Bill

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firefighterontheside

13442 posts in 1316 days


#6 posted 12-24-2014 02:37 PM

Are you doing any sanding between coats? As said, thin product is not going to build up like you want, but you can sand it back a bit and then recoat to reduce the grain feel.

-- Bill M. "People change, walnut doesn't" by Gene.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

115201 posts in 3037 days


#7 posted 12-24-2014 03:34 PM

Here’s my take on using deft Lacquer on kitchen cabinets.Is there a stronger tougher finish? Yes! Would Pre cat Lacquer better for this application ? Yes? So why would I have someone go ahead and use the Lacquer that isn’t as durable ?
It boils down to two things,first ease of application (especially for someone new to finishing) and secondly it’s and easy finish to repair. On the cabinets I make I like water base material or pre-cat ,but as a woodworking instructor I find it
helps new woodworkers to start with the basics. Would I normally inform a student what I think is stronger and more durable ? You bet.
As wildwood said,when shooting deft lacquer it’s not necessary to sand in between coats because the new coat melts into the previous coat.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

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NoThanks

798 posts in 989 days


#8 posted 12-24-2014 04:05 PM



Here s my take on using deft Lacquer on kitchen cabinets.Is there a stronger tougher finish? Yes! Would Pre cat Lacquer better for this application ? Yes? So why would I have someone go ahead and use the Lacquer that isn t as durable ?
It boils down to two things,first ease of application (especially for someone new to finishing) and secondly it s and easy finish to repair.

- a1Jim

Jim, Spraying pre-cat lacquer is no different than spraying any other kind of lacquer. Just as easy to apply and just as easy to repair. Acts just like regular NC lacquer. You buy it with the catalyst already in it, and thin it the same as you would NC, Only difference I have found is that it takes less coats, has a better feel to it, doesn’t look plastic, and is more durable. Other than that it has a shorter shelf life. I don’t know why you wouldn’t start teaching your students better quality from the start.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3926 posts in 1953 days


#9 posted 12-24-2014 04:08 PM

NC lacquer is such a poor finish (durability wise) that even it’s ease of use and repairability does not make it good for kitchen cabinets. It’s not resistant to strong cleaners at all, and the OP stated that he wanted lasting protection.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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a1Jim

115201 posts in 3037 days


#10 posted 12-24-2014 04:48 PM

Iwud4u
I think I might debate a bit about pre-cat and NC spraying exactly the same,but in principle lets say it does, for my own personal use I’ve been spraying for 40 years so i can spray most anything,But when using brushing lacquer at least in a class type atmosphere a student has the option to take a project home and brush their project when they don’t own spray equipment or if the cabinet is already installed. With Pre-cat they have a limited time to use their material.Students may share a can of lacquer or use it for multiple projects over a 3 month or longer time period.
Lastly, I don’t teach a class exclusively on cabinet making .When Most of my students use lacquer they have to brush it or use rattle cans. Where I teach it does not have a spray booth or even spray guns . On rare occasions, I will bring a spray gun to class if time allows,my class is principally a build class not a finishing class.

If I were teaching folks to make and finish cabinets for a living pre-cat would be a good choice to introduce to students. Just as you say NC does not have as good build up and is not as durable for the kind of work you do and also much of my work.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

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NoThanks

798 posts in 989 days


#11 posted 12-24-2014 05:18 PM



Iwud4u
I think I might debate a bit about pre-cat and NC spraying exactly the same,but in principle lets say it does,

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

- a1Jim

Jim, your word is exactly,
I only said it is no different, being, it is just as easy to apply.
(I understand every material has variables as to how to use it.)
Maybe I’m missing something when using the product,
maybe you can tell me the differences, because I really don’t know what is different.
I’m taking it that your not just expressing the differences in atomization, velocity, fan spread, volume or air adjustments, as that goes with every material you spray.
Of course you already know that with 40 years of spraying.

Happy Holidays to you as well!

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

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NoThanks

798 posts in 989 days


#12 posted 12-24-2014 05:24 PM

Nevermind Jim, I have already hijacked this thread enough, and I really don’t need to know the differences,
already do, I have been spraying over 30 years myself.

Merry Christmas

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

View dob's profile

dob

2 posts in 710 days


#13 posted 12-24-2014 05:30 PM

Thanks for all of the info.
The good news is it sounds like I achieved what you would expect given the materials that I used. I will say that it was very forgiving. Due to bad weather and time restraints we had to stain and finish the cabinets after they were installed. This is my first shot at spraying cabinets, and the finish, although thin, looks very even. We are going to consider our options at this point. We like the look of satin, and don’t really want a gloss. We may consider more coats of the same, or of a compatible product (although we have been told to not mix products and I tend to agree). We may just decide to leave it as it is. Someone suggested that we use a furniture wax and a buffer. Either way we are going to sit on it for a couple of days before decide how to proceed. Here is a pic that shows the finish as it is now -

Thanks again for all of the help. I’ll update this thread with any progress.

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a1Jim

115201 posts in 3037 days


#14 posted 12-24-2014 05:37 PM

A little hard to see but I’m sure you did a good job.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

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NoThanks

798 posts in 989 days


#15 posted 12-24-2014 05:48 PM

Do more coats of the same. You will be happier!
Take the doors and drawers out and lay flat.
Don’t use any wax until your sure your not going to put anymore finish on them,
Otherwise it will create problems if you decide to add more finish. (that’s another blog)

I think you could switch to a different lacquer without problems. I wouldn’t use the pre-cat over it, although you probably could,
I would go to a Sherwin Williams (get their advice) and get a NC lacquer from them and not use the Deft.

-- Because I'm gone, that's why!

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