Granite tops vs traditional Cast iron tops on WW machines

Bob, as I own tools4granite.com, where is this being advertised? This, has passed me by and at first I thought you were kidding. Who has “granite machine tops?”

Dave

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

steel city has produced a tablesaw and jointer with granite tops instead of iron, I think thats what he’s talking about.

-- "Democracy is by far the worst system of government. Except all the others that have been tried." ~ Winston Churchill

Thanks Sean but I have no idea what the advantage would be…

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Fedsaw, Steel City has an entire line of granite tabled tools, Rigid also sells a tablesaw and maybe a jointer.

Bob, I have a Steel City table saw with granite top. Your right it does lend itself well to magnetic devices. I built a standalone outfeed table for it. I appears that all the nuts are epoxied in, so i don’t see anyway to tap it.

I’ve only used the miter guage featherboards so it works well for me.

Steel City so they’re referring to Pittsburgh…right?

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

Ridgid also has produced a granite TS (R4511) which I own. Obviously, you are correct in observing that you loose the advantage of magnetic add-ons and being able to drill into the material (although I’m sure you can, but I don’t think you’d want to). That said, the advantage of the table not rusting (I live in a very humid climate) and not warping over time is a good enough payoff for me. In addition, the weight of the table is great, but with the herculift that Ridgid includes in order to make the saw mobile makes this perfect for somebody in my situation.

Both granite and iron have their advantages and disadvantages, but just like every other tool, I think it comes down to which one works best for your particular situation.

Yeah a bit ironic I suppose

There are certainly ways to drill into stone. From my experience I would be concerned about drilling into the edge of such a relatively thin top. If you were successful, there are incredible epoxy adhesives that could be used to glue in threaded inserts. if it were my money I would leave it alone. Mount more stuff to the cabinet sheetmetal rather than utilizing the top. Good luck.

-- Just 'cause a cat has kittens in the oven, it don't make 'em biscuits.

Ive never seen anyone actually mount things to the table other than a fence. I added some hangers on the cabinet for my osbourne miter gauge

I occasionally beat the heck out of something with a hammer on my good ole craftsman. Some would say that’s not all that bright but if it’s top were granite I think I’d need a new top!

-- Gary, South Central Wisconsin. So much to learn, so little time!

I was just looking at a granite top Steel City bandsaw and many questions ran through my head about this versus steel or cast. I think the dimensional stability is outweighed by being able to use magnetic clamps, tap it for fences or even just accidental (or in Bureaucrat’s case deliberate) :-) impact. When I finally have the scratch together I will probably go metal.

-- ...it's rennovation time!!!

Thats a question I was asking myself also. It’s a great discussion item

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

Hi Bob;

Like you, and Karson, I personally can’t see any advantage to this. I think it’s a marketing thing more than anything else.

From the time they were first introduced, I considered them to be a novel idea, not much to gain, and a fair amount to lose.

As you pointed out, other than being able to leave a can of pop on the saw table for a week, (without a coaster), LOL and not having a problem really doesn’t do much for me. I have a rule that no food or beverages be put on machine tops.

As far as warping, none of my machines seem to have a problem in that regard either. I don’t recall ever putting off a project until the top flattened back out.

While there are only limited times when you need to drill a machine top, like setting up a power feeder, and of course you can drill granite and epoxy a nut into it, but I wouldn’t do it.

The magnetic feather boards could be replaced with vacuum clamps, but that’s not very convenient.

So, I’m thinking unless I start preparing meals on my table saw, I’ll stick with metal.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

I have been seriously looking at the Steel City Granite TS. I live in a very humid climate and look to the granite to solve my rust problems. As others have stated, my biggest fear would be cracking the top. I had not considered the magnet issue, but must now as I do have several magnetic feather boards.

Well, since I am still constructing my shop, and my next major tool purchase is a Dust Collection system, I have some time to let others test these granite topped tools out for me.

-- Scott in Texas

I think I’ll keep my cast iron saw top.

However, I would consider a jointer with a granite top, and especially fence. The most common warps I remember reading about seem to involve jointer fences.

-- - Please help keep Lumberjocks an enjoyable escape by refusing to participate in political discussions. Simply spit out the bait and ignore the thread...

I think a big selling point is greater perceived precision. I’ve owned
some really nice machines with cast-iron tables and they were
always warped and dished to some degree. It generally didn’t
affect performance much.

The premise is that the granite tops are always dead-flat and that
having a dead-flat top will make your craftsmanship better.

Attractive premise. Not correct, but attractive.

Obviously a really badly warped top is a problem.

I used to live in a rustic house in Malibu and I didn’t have covered space
for all my machines. I dealt with rusting tops on a regular basis. Many
of us here might think it is crazy to store a nice table saw outside, but
I did it for years and just put up with the rust. Of course I covered the
machines but a little moisture always got in.

For me, just from that peculiar situation, a granite topped table saw
is an intriguing idea. You can just move a saw outside where infeed
and outfeed room is unlimited and not be too concerned about the
saw being damaged by exposure.

-- Would you like to recession-proof your present business using the internet? - my revealing 9-page free report gives you the straight facts: http://copymatch.com/rec/cap.html

Loren, what happens to the rest of the tablesaw for instance on prolonged exposure to moisture?
Humidity is not a big factor where I live so I lam somewhat of a rust virgin.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I have a granite topped Steel City saw. I have had it about 2 months I guess and these are my feeling so far, though certainly subject to change.

The top is flat. Is it flatter than the typical cast-iron top? I dunno, it just looks flat, and flat stuff laid on it lays flat. I’m not anal enough to buy a long Starrett straight edge and get my feeler gauages out. :)

It is rust proof, which is very nice. In my garage I don’t have any problems with rust on my bandsaw cast-iron table, so I don’t think it is an issue for me anyhow, but I do get a subtle bit of satisfaction eating my lunch on it.

The top is 1.75” thick and heavy. How does this compare to the typical cast-iron top, again, I don’t know. But, it does make it nice and heavy and solid feeling. I think there is plenty of thickness there to drill if you wanted to, but I ain’t gonna.

I don’t like not being able to use magnetic jigs. I didn’t realize how much of a negative this would be.

My personal feeling is that overall I do like the granite top, but I don’t think it makes it worth the extra money. I think should I ever do this again I would invest the extra money in a better quality cast-iron cabinet saw, or in some SawStop technology and go that route. Although, if SawStop or Powermatic, etc. began offering a granite top model I might have to rethink my prior statemetns.

As it stands now, I don’t think I will have any cause for complaint with this top at any point in the future.

-- PeteMoss

stick with cast. stone is much more likely to have inperfections in it that you cannot see than cast. i believe i once saw a bandsaw with granite wheels. i never thought it was a good idea. its just not a controled enough surface and can be unpredictable to work with.

-- Let there be sawdust

So. Cal is a pretty dry place. It rains, it stops, things dry.

If you kept tools outdoors really close to the sea or in a really
humid place like the South the situation might be different.

I kept stuff on mobile bases in general so the water and air
would run out underneath. As far as water getting down in
the works of a cabinet saw it wasn’t a problem. I had a
gas-permeable machine cover, then a sheet of fiberglass
with a slot for the blade. On top of that I would throw a tarp.

Very little water got through but I was always dealing with
flash-rust on the table top. I would just brush it off with
a brass-bristle brush, wax and be back in business.

-- Would you like to recession-proof your present business using the internet? - my revealing 9-page free report gives you the straight facts: http://copymatch.com/rec/cap.html

interesting post. I too have been wondering the same things on granite vs cast.

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

I think a lot of guys have been wondering about this same questions. I for one made the decision to stay away from the granite for all the same reasons you have mentioned. The only other thing that makes me wonder is dropping something on the thing..like in a corner… I for one will be sticking with a good quality cast top…. Like on my old 1962 General..still looks great and performs well after all these years.

-- Brian's Table Top Toys http://home.mountaincable.net/~bgraham/

During assembly of my R4511, I found some evidence that it had been damaged (mainly the cabinet and the attachment that the wheel goes on). I went to the HD that I got it from and they said they would pick it up and deliver a new one with no problem. Since the saw was already damaged and going back, I did some strength testing on the granite.

The first thing I did was clamp some 3/4 plywood to it, got my impact drill, and some screws. I wanted to see what would happen to the granite after the screw went through the wood. To my surprise, there was no damage. The only thing I saw was a very tiny dent from the head of the screw, but you’d have to have looked pretty hard to see it. I put a good amount of pressure on the drill so I was happy with that result.

I then got my hammer and tapped the granite….no sign of damage. So, I decided to hit it harder….nothing. I then hit it harder and the result was the same, no damage. Of course, I didn’t pound the table at full strength, but I did hit it about as hard as I would if I were doing just some normal pounding.

Finally, I took my hammer and dropped it on the saw from about a foot high. I was pleased that there was no visible damage after this test too.

Granted, this might not have been the best way to test the durability of the granite, but it’s all I could come up with. There’s no question that there is a point of impact strength at which it would crack, but from what I could see, I think I would have to be very careless for that to happen.

Again, I’m not saying that granite is better, but I do think it’s more than just hype. Sure, it stinks that I won’t be able to use any magnetic supplements, but other than featherboards I’m not sure how many more things I would use. Rust is a huge problem in this Houston climate (heck, when you go to Lowe’s, half of their TS are rusted within a year of being out of the box b/c of the humidity). It should be interesting to see how it holds up through the years, but at this point I haven’t seen any reason for concern.

Hope this helps…...

dlux – congrats on the new saw! its a nice looking one. but I think that the concern with the tops being more brittle refers to the edges/corners/miter-slot and not to the middle of the top.

I currently use a portable table saw that has an aluminum type top to it, so I can’t use anything magnetic either with it. and so far I have not felt limited by that, there are other options (my featherboard locks into the miter slot) I think it all depends on the application, your shops’ surrounding/environment, and your existing accessories. sure if you have all magnetic jigs, then a granite top might seem out of place, but if you live in a high moisture environment, it can be a blessing.

-- When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

“heck, when you go to Lowe’s, half of their TS are rusted within a year of being out of the box”

What happens to the other half? ;-)

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

The other half…. uhhhhhh…...welll…... uhhhhhhh…....I…...uhhhhhhhh….... only look at half of the saws available??...... (I know, that’s weak, but that’s all I’ve got today. I’m working on no coffee, yikes!)

hahahahaha!

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Maybe its just the left half that is rusted on all of them? :-)

-- ...it's rennovation time!!!

Or the half left??? ;-)

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

it could have to do with whether the employee that set it up “cleaned” the protective coating off some, but not the others. doesn’t cast iron ussually have some kind of protective shipping oil on it? I’m not sure because I’ve got a bencthop ridgid that was coated with some rough antifriction coating. I know many of you will roll your eyes, but its the best I can afford and a more precise saw would not make me any more precise. I still have work to do on my own skills.

Looks to me like the market is dying for some enterprising sole that can create a line of featherboards and other accesories that will somehow adhere/remove quickly and easily to granite tops. Someone is going to make millions of dollars….I better get down to the shop and see what I can some up with.

-- Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I have heard and read that cast iron can warp, but I do not know of anybody that has actually had an issue with this. I am not saying that it doesn’t happen but I am saying that it is not likely.

I am very happy with my cast iron tools and am fully confident that warping will never be an issue.

If rusting is a constant issue then granite or perhaps a dehumidifier would be a consideration. I worked in my brother’s shop in Ohio for almost 5 years and high humidity was common. Rust was never a serious issue if the tool stayed in regular use. The bandsaw did not receive as much regular use and some light rust would start to gather over time. I kept a protective cover on it and the rust was very light which was easily buffed off with steel wool. I can’t say that it was enough to make me consider a granite topped tool.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I’m convinced that granite isn’t a gimmick, but a cost reduction strategy.

It takes a large amount of energy to melt the cast iron, then the destressing stage to help prevent warping.

Warping is more of an issue for the manufacturer than it is for the consumer. Although 2 areas that can be an issue is bandsaw tables (hence the leveling pin) and jointer fences (most tend to be rather thin, which makes it easier).

Granite is a cut and finish operation, which they already need to do the finish on the cast iron, which is where warping will be most prevalent (much like wood, cutting releases stresses in metal)

Once it becomes more and more accepted by the public you will find more tools moving that way I feel (especially if there’s some sort of patent protection giving everyone else time to wait).

I’d say yoiu pretty much aced this one Marc.
obviously with some time they will address the hold down short commings .
I’m not sure that a sliding table could not address most of them right now.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I have the steel city granite topped bandsaw. i bought it because i was looking and i read the glowing review that garyk did on it. he won it as a prize from this site for his superawesome box.
I have no complaints and i think anyone interested should read gary k’s review.

-- Junior -Quality is never an accident-it is the reward for the effort involved.

Here is a question for you granite owners.

Does the thickness of the top decrease the depth of cut? When the arbor on my Jet cabinet saw is raised all the way up, there is 1” from the top of the trunion where the arbor goes through to the table top. PeteMoss said the granite is 1 3/4” thick (above). That makes me think the depth of cut might be less than cast.

(not that I ever run the blade all the way up :D)

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

I have all the steel city granite top tools….I have owned the cast iron tools from all the rest. The granite is better! No rust, no swell/movement with cast. I have drilled with concrete bits the granite tops, with no problems. You just epoxy nuts or what ever you like straight into the top. The tops are thick enough to take what ever you throw at them…....as long as it isn’t cast iron, that your throwing at them!

As mentioned I have the granite bandsaw. The thing I like about it is that it doesn’t have the ribs on the underside like my cast iron band saw does. This make it VERY easy to clamp things to it with any type of clamp.

I have never drilled a hole into any of my cast iron tables but like remoc says it wouldn’t be difficult to do with granite. They do it with counter tops all the time.

No rust. It’s just a flat rock after all.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Is there less friction with a granite top?

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

I have the Steel City granite BS and the Rigid granite TS. I love them both. My shop isn’t climate controlled and it’s one less thing to remove surface rust from or apply protectant from time to time.

I like the thought that my tables are solid and stable. (They did all their moving thousands of years ago).

The TS is very heavy for a hybrid. Took a bunch of guys to unload it and put it on the stand and mobile base. That sucked. The first thing I noticed when I turned it on was how quiet it was. The 1.75 inch thick granite top really dampens vibration and noise. As for magnetic attachments, I’m not missing them yet. I guess I’m saying the trade-off is worth it so far.

-- Matt - My Websites - http://www.bestinwood.com - Hand Tools :: http://www.workshopgarage.com - Small Shops

I have a granite top on my router table.Granted it is custom made(a buddy does granite countertops) For the router table I love it It virtually eliminates vibration because of the weight and it is very slick after a waxing.I had grooves gut into it for my fence ,miter gauge and coping sled and epoxied t-track into the grooves for the fence.If I had it to do over I would use t-track in all the slots as it would make all the attachments the same

-- teh most beautiful about a tree is what you can make out of it...even if that is only a fire!I hate raking