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I don't get it!! Handplane design...

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Forum topic by poopiekat posted 02-12-2009 09:37 PM 1668 views 0 times favorited 13 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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poopiekat

4224 posts in 3196 days


02-12-2009 09:37 PM

Topic tags/keywords: plane

Okay… ever since the age of 13, in Industrial Arts class where I was shown how to use Stanley #5 planes in the workshop, I’ve never questioned it. Now, 44 years later, I’m contemplating my next projext which will be a 22”-24” jointer hand plane with a body made of something exotic. Then the most imponderable thought entered my brain: When setting up my long-bed jointer blades, I know that the outfeed bed must exactly equal the height of the apex of the arc of the knives. So my question is…why isn’t the sole behind the blade of a hand plane exactly the same height of the protruding blade? Ever? Wouldn’t it make more sense to design the sole of a hand plane such that the infeed end(if you will) should be higher than the blade by the thickness of a shaving, and that the outfeed end of the sole be exactly the height of the blade? In other words, I’d like a plane where continuous contact with the entire length of the sole is achieved. This doesn’t happen with any conventional hand plane I’ve ever known. Why shouldn’t the sole of a handplane directly behind the blade contact the workpiece?
Anyone ever tried to make a plane with this design? Have you ever wondered about this? Have I had too much coffee today?

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!


13 replies so far

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Damian Penney

1141 posts in 3453 days


#1 posted 02-12-2009 10:05 PM

I asked the exact same question in this thread :)

I found this response helpful

“A jointer set to a 1/32 cut is pretty large when compared to say a .002”-.003” shaving which is like 1/512” to 1/333”!!! It’s all relative – what flat really is. So, the heel end of the plane doesn’t need to be set to the height of the blade extension, because the distance to “flat” is so close. Also, when using a finely tuned plane (or even a farily well tuned plane), the tool is pretty sensitive to the surface and takes off primarily the high spots as you approach flat. Set well for a very fine shaving, and easing up your pressure on the tool, when you get to “flat,” you can almost run the plane over the surface without shaving off any more of the wood.”

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#2 posted 02-12-2009 10:17 PM

pretty logical arguement! I like it! and there is no such thing as too much coffee!

I think that eventhough, your thinking is correct and the logic is all there just like Damian said its all relative… a jointer is taking off a butt ton more material at once compared to a hand plane…

I have never personally measured the shavings comming off of my planes, but they are at least, generally, half as thin as ordinary veneer, so I would guess something like .25 of a mm or less even if finely tuned. our shop jointer, (a larger model so about 2.5 metres long) can easily take off 3 mm at a whack when necessary. that is quite a noticable difference in levels between machined wood and wood to be machined. where on a plane it does not matter because the difference is so small.

A adjustable plane is a cool idea though, I have built a few planes and it has never occured to me this idea.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Damian Penney

1141 posts in 3453 days


#3 posted 02-12-2009 10:21 PM

A plane can take shavings as thin as .002” which is 0.05mm Nicholas :)

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

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poopiekat

4224 posts in 3196 days


#4 posted 02-12-2009 10:22 PM

Thanks, Damian! Great Minds think alike. Yes, I intend to use my home-made jointer in a shooting board when needed, only I am partial to the idea of clamping the plane to the workbench and using a live table or carriage to run the stock past the blade, especially for truing end-grain. Sorry that I missed that original discussion in your link!

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

View Francisco Luna's profile

Francisco Luna

938 posts in 2855 days


#5 posted 02-12-2009 10:24 PM

It’s like reinventing the wheel….but is still a good question..
Some things that pop up in my mind:
1.Handplane Blades edges often are not 100% straight like a powered jointer.
2.I have not seen the first rabbet jointer, the one that would leave (hypothetically) the way with the exact width for the plane “outfeed” section. In usual Jointers both sections are conected at bothe sides of the blade in a same level.
3. In a Hand Plane, the blade is adjustable, to make coarse or fine shavings…..in your Plane Hypotesis, the “outfeed” surface must be mobilble to be at the same line with the blade.

-- Nature is my manifestation of God. I go to nature every day for inspiration in the day's work. I follow in building the principles which nature has used in its domain" Frank Lloyd Wright

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Waldschrat

505 posts in 2898 days


#6 posted 02-12-2009 10:25 PM

Hey, cool thanks! I never imagined that it could go to .05, but yeah, I will definetly be measuring it next time I am cleaning up something with the hand plane!

Poopiekat, you are taking about building a “coopers” style plane.. I have seen one described once in a book and a picture, looks like a cool idea for al around use.

-- Nicholas, Cabinet/Furniture Maker, Blue Hill, Maine

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Francisco Luna

938 posts in 2855 days


#7 posted 02-12-2009 10:29 PM

>>>>>>>>

-- Nature is my manifestation of God. I go to nature every day for inspiration in the day's work. I follow in building the principles which nature has used in its domain" Frank Lloyd Wright

View Loren's profile

Loren

8301 posts in 3110 days


#8 posted 02-13-2009 01:35 AM

Handplanes work with pressure and speed. The wood flexes
and in fact the fibers are compressed as they are cut.

It doesn’t happen this way with a jointer, which basically
is a controlled adzing action.

I have seen pictures of old plane “machines” that cut a molding
or a straight cut 6” wide using a winch action to pull the plane
through the cut. I cannot recall for sure but as I recall the
machines for cutting the moldings had a recessed front section
to allow the deep cut.

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poopiekat

4224 posts in 3196 days


#9 posted 02-13-2009 05:17 PM

waldschrat: A cooper’s plane is close but still not exactly what I have in mind. Loren: you’re on the right track. Doubthead: You’re speaking of a rabbet plane that can cut flush to the side of the plane body.

Has anyone ever constructed a plane with the outfeed surface flush with the blade edge, and the infeed side recessed by the thickness of a shaving? Maybe i’ll post a diagram or drawing of what I’m attempting to do.

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

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Bob #2

3809 posts in 3483 days


#10 posted 02-13-2009 05:28 PM

Not to change the subject but, here is a movie of a veneer slicer and note that the angle of the blade is almost 30° to the direction of travel.
This situation precludes having two different levels between in and out feeds but obiviously results in the type of shavings sought out by Neanders.
I wonder why we don’t see a jointer plane with an angled blade as well?
p.s. the file is a bit slow to load but worth the wait.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

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PurpLev

8523 posts in 3110 days


#11 posted 02-13-2009 06:13 PM

here’s a fixed link to Bob#2 movie: veneer slicer

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

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Bob #2

3809 posts in 3483 days


#12 posted 02-13-2009 06:27 PM

Thanks purplev I always forget to put a space after the paste on this forum.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

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PurpLev

8523 posts in 3110 days


#13 posted 02-13-2009 06:31 PM

no worries, I didnt know if you’d be checking this before the 30 min. edit timeout kicks in, so I just posted it anyways.

always glad to help.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

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