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Bill Pentz and all hope is lost?

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Forum topic by nightdeath4223 posted 10-30-2014 01:41 PM 2488 views 0 times favorited 33 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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nightdeath4223

9 posts in 811 days


10-30-2014 01:41 PM

Okay, I know the title may be over the top. But I have read Bill’s main argument to his site twice, and the more research I do on DC’s, the more I realize that there is really no hope. It seems like I would be better off with a large fan and a mask then collecting dust with a collector. I know the argument that people will say, it is better to spend thousands of dollars on the three hp and above or five hp above systems he suggests instead of failed health. But the reality of it is I have bought all my major equipment first and did not buy the DV system first. So the money is spent, what I am thinking of doing is getting a smaller DC because I am working out of my garage and just have the door open the whole time. I will position the DC close to the door and then have an oscillating fan going. Hopefully, with a mask and all these steps that will be good enough. I am just deflated because I am just now getting into this hobby, and it seems like it is just hopelessly too dangerous.


33 replies so far

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

115207 posts in 3045 days


#1 posted 10-30-2014 01:55 PM

I’m not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
I have used inexpensive dust collectors for years and have not had problems. I have set up my HF dust collectors so the discharge outside in little sheds built just for that purpose.this approach removes the dust bag part of dust collection from the inside to the outside removing the need for more expensive low micron bags and high filtration of dust particles. Unless you have unlimited funds you will seldom get 100% efficacy in an DC system but I think my approach helps considerably .

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

513 posts in 1432 days


#2 posted 10-30-2014 02:12 PM

Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.

I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.

Dust management is pretty much common sense. Get a good sized dust collector for your shop, perhaps an ambient air cleaner like this one: http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-708620b-afs-1000b--1-000-cfm-heavy-duty-air-filtration-system-with-remote-control/jetn708620b,default,pd.html?start=2&cgid=jet-dust-collection , and wear a dust mask when sanding. Quit worrying about the minutia and go enjoy your workshop.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

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nightdeath4223

9 posts in 811 days


#3 posted 10-30-2014 02:15 PM



I m not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
I have used inexpensive dust collectors for years and have not had problems. I have set up my HF dust collectors so the discharge outside in little sheds built just for that purpose.this approach removes the dust bag part of dust collection from the inside to the outside removing the need for more expensive low micron bags and high filtration of dust particles. Unless you have unlimited funds you will seldom get 100% efficacy in an DC system but I think my approach helps considerably .

- a1Jim

Here is his website. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

View nightdeath4223's profile

nightdeath4223

9 posts in 811 days


#4 posted 10-30-2014 02:16 PM



Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.

I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.

Dust management is pretty much common sense. Get a good sized dust collector for your shop, perhaps an ambient air cleaner like this one: http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-708620b-afs-1000b--1-000-cfm-heavy-duty-air-filtration-system-with-remote-control/jetn708620b,default,pd.html?start=2&cgid=jet-dust-collection , and wear a dust mask when sanding. Quit worrying about the minutia and go enjoy your workshop.

- SamuraiSaw

I agree, there is a little sarcasm in my overreaction. I was just curious if others felt like it was all doom and glum and there is no hope but to not woodwork.

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2402 posts in 2350 days


#5 posted 10-30-2014 02:22 PM

3hp and above are not “thousands of dollars”...Penn State Ind offers very affordable DC’s, as well as several other companies that offer DC’s that are over 3hp for under $2G. Bill Pentz offers instructions for you to build your own DC…I started with a typical 1.5hp DC, developed health issues and then upgraded.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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AtlasRook

24 posts in 990 days


#6 posted 10-30-2014 02:29 PM

It seems to me, any internet-going start-up hobby woodworker finds his way to Bill Pentz’s website. (I have such a hard time reading anything on that site, because it is such a HUGE WALL OF TEXT!) He does preach it like the apocalypse is coming in the form of wood dust.

I haven’t been in this hobby that long either, but after doing more research, here is what I found:
- Dust can be bad for your health → true
- Have a 3 part plan to take care of dust 1. Dust mask 2. Dust collector 3. Air filter
- A harbor freight dust collector is a good deal (with the right coupon can be as cheap as ~$150)
- A box fan and a filter makes a super cheap air filter, BUT an use furnace blower can make a much better air filter. Note: an open gaurage door will work well as an “air filter”, as long as there is some airflow going out and fresh air is coming in.
- Buy a dust mask

View TheWoodenOyster's profile

TheWoodenOyster

1275 posts in 1403 days


#7 posted 10-30-2014 02:34 PM

Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles. There is also no way in the world any typical person can avoid breathing in some dust particles that are blowing around.

My mantra when it comes to collecting dust is threefold:

1. Dust Collection AKA Chip collection from machines is done more so to aid in clean up than to actually get all of the dust out of the air. At the machine even with a top notch dust collection setup, there is still probably a deadly amount of dust going into the air according to Bill Pentz.

2. Respirators do a hell of a lot better job stopping dust than any dust collector. I have milled a lot of lumber with no dust collection at all using only a respirator. I cannot even smell the wood, much less be breathing in all of the crap I would be breathing in if I were not wearing a mask and just had a dust collector hooked up.Get a Respirator and you’ll be amazed.

3. Nothing beats fresh air. In my last last shop, I had one garage door at both ends of the shop. When it got dusty, I would open them up and within a few minutes, even on a calm day, I would have a whole new dust free batch of air in the shop. That isn’t possible for everyone, but exchanging air with fans and such does a lot of good. In my dream shop, I plan to have at least two ends of the shop open up with garage type doors. Two gym fans and you can move a helluva a lot of air thru even a large shop.

In the end, do what you can. It is impossible to think we can stop all dust from entering our lungs. Use a respirator and try to get some fresh air into the shop. A dust collector will help with the cleanup.

Good luck and get into the shop!

-- The Wood Is Your Oyster

View mnguy's profile

mnguy

183 posts in 2866 days


#8 posted 10-30-2014 02:39 PM

Also, hook up a vacuum to your power sanders – it not only captures most of the dust, it makes your sandpaper last longer.

I believe the key is to keep as much of the small particles out of the air; these are the particles that do the damage. My approach has been to spend my $’s on a small DC with a good pleated filter; I move it to the machine in use and keep the hose run short. I also have an air cleaner with submicron filtration. When in doubt, I wear an N95 mask.

Would I like a cabinet saw with great dust collection and a 3 hp cyclone central system? Of course. Neither of them will fit in my oddly shaped basement shop. So, I try to seal up my contractor saw and do OK with my 1 hp Penn State DC.

View timbertailor's profile

timbertailor

1592 posts in 892 days


#9 posted 10-30-2014 02:53 PM


Dude, get a cup of coffee and take a deep breath. Trust me, the sky is not falling and you are more likely to die of ebola than from woodworking.

I was a firefighter for 31 years. I inhaled a whole lot more worse stuff than I ever have in the workshop, and I started woodworking the same time I joined the fire department.

Dust management is pretty much common sense. Get a good sized dust collector for your shop, perhaps an ambient air cleaner like this one: http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-708620b-afs-1000b--1-000-cfm-heavy-duty-air-filtration-system-with-remote-control/jetn708620b,default,pd.html?start=2&cgid=jet-dust-collection , and wear a dust mask when sanding. Quit worrying about the minutia and go enjoy your workshop.

- SamuraiSaw

Sorry, but ones health is important and avoiding the inhalation of saw dust should be taken seriously. I have breathed in a bunch of nasty stuff over the years too but that does not mean it is a smart thing to do or that it could not make one seriously sick. I have seen woodworking friends go from dyed in the wool wood workers to retired fishermen in less than a year. Once you become allergic, it can be VERY dangerous to continue working in the workshop.

Bill Pentz’s articles do a great deal to raise awareness and give everyone a goal to reach and a design that they can count on to keep them healthy.

Your casual attitude reflects a lot of peoples attitude about sawdust. But please, do not comment to only dilute everyone’s concerns. The logic that I have survived without any ill effects so no one else should have to worry about it is just wrong.

I also see a lot of “DIY” shop “air cleaners”. This too is misguided and usually put together with little or no research because it seems like a good idea. Almost all of the DIY designs I have seen use inadequate air filtration. This has the effect of perpetually blowing the dangerous, fine saw dust around the shop the entire time they are on without adequate filtration. Proper filtration is expensive. There is no way to get around it unless you can discharge outside. But please, do not make the situation worse by slapping something together something you saw on LJ’s without understanding the health risks and what you are trying to accomplish.

Lastly, he is recommending a system that is shop wide. This means he has also included a LOT of plumbing into his design that drastically lowers the performance of the larger HP systems. If you do not have 6” system and you do not plumb your entire shop with a dedicated DC system, you can get away with less power like I did.

-- Brad, Texas, https://www.youtube.com/user/tonkatoytruck/feed

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CharlesA

3025 posts in 1265 days


#10 posted 10-30-2014 03:04 PM



I m not familiar with Bill Pentz ?
- a1Jim

This may be the most unbelievable statement I’ve ever read on LJ’s! Jim is the all time leader poster on LJ, and Bill Pentz’s DC research comes up on this site several times per week, at least. I’m flummoxed, I’m verklempt, I’m stunned, I’m beside myself.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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CharlesA

3025 posts in 1265 days


#11 posted 10-30-2014 03:11 PM

I view Bill Pentz’s research the same way I view SawStop—oh no all I have to do is mention Festool and I’ve raised the holy trifecta of internet woodworking controversy. Bear with me—I’m making a larger point, so please don’t get into an argument with me about SawStop.

I think that SawStop is the no-brainer choice for a new full feature table saw. When I am in the market for a new cabinet saw, it will be a SawStop—full stop. However, I have two college-age kids and that is not in the cards right now. So I have CL used tools, the total cost of which is lower than a new SawStop. I try to practice safe woodworking in the time being, and my lack of a SawStop does not keep me from woodworking.

In a similar way, I respect Bill Pentz’s research and cannot argue with it. But I cannot go for a 5 hp 220v dust system with 6” ducting at this point. It would cost more than all my tools put together (see a theme developing here?). So, I take as much of his advice as possible. I designed my 4” ducting according to his plan. I bought a 3M 7000 dust mask with two different cartridges that I use mostly with sanding. I am experimenting with my dust exhaust going outside—set it up last night. I take as much of his advice as possible, but I don’t stop woodworking because I can’t take it all.

Charles

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View SamuraiSaw's profile

SamuraiSaw

513 posts in 1432 days


#12 posted 10-30-2014 03:17 PM

Sorry, but ones health is important and avoiding the inhalation of saw dust should be taken seriously. I have breathed in a bunch of nasty stuff over the years too but that does not mean it is a smart thing to do or that it could not make one seriously sick. I have seen woodworking friends go from dyed in the wool wood workers to retired fishermen in less than a year. Once you become allergic, it can be VERY dangerous to continue working in the workshop.

Bill Pentz s articles to a great deal to raise awareness and give everyone a goal to reach and a design that they can count on to keep them healthy.

Your casual attitude reflects a lot of peoples attitude about sawdust. But please, do not comment to only dilute everyone s concerns. The logic that I have survived without any ill effects so no one else should have to worry about it is just wrong.

I also see a lot of “DIY” shop “air cleaners”. This too is misguided and usually put together with little or no research because it seems like a good idea. Almost all of the DIY designs I have seen use inadequate air filtration. This has the effect of perpetually blowing the dangerous, fine saw dust around the shop the entire time they are on without adequate filtration. Proper filtration is expensive. There is no way to get around it unless you can discharge outside. But please, do not make the situation worse by slapping something together something you saw on LJ s without understanding the health risks and what you are trying to accomplish.

Lastly, he is recommending a system that is shop wide. This means he has also included a LOT of plumbing into his design that drastically lowers the performance of the larger HP systems. If you do not have 6” system and you do not plumb your entire shop with a dedicated DC system, you can get away with less power like I did.

- timbertailor

I’ve read the information from Pentz and found him to be an alarmist with an irrational approach to a simple issue. And rather than read the post I made correctly you have shown you buy into the same irrational mindset. You do not have a clue about my attitude towards anything, much less safety, so feed that slop to another hog.

I highly recommend you find another, more safe, endeavor such as needle point or crochet. Or perhaps you can find a good deal on some positive pressure PPE for the time in the “hot zone” that is your workshop. However, the ebola zealots may have cut all the Pentz zealots out of the market and bought them all up. Actually, both have the same ridiculous mindset, so maybe you can work out a time share on one.

For the vast majority of the rest of us, dust collection is a matter of simple common sense. Use equipment designed for the purpose, wear reasonable respiratory protection, and keep your equipment in good working order. If your paranoia of dust is so great, go find something else to entertain yourself.

-- Artisan Woodworks of Texas.... www.awwtx.com

View GregD's profile

GregD

783 posts in 2604 days


#13 posted 10-30-2014 03:25 PM



Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles.

...

Good luck and get into the shop!

- TheWoodenOyster

+1 on all of that. Do the best job with dust control that you can without going broke or crazy. Unless you have a particular sensitivity to wood dust you will probably find that is good enough.

I do find that when I start getting sloppy managing the dust in my shop I get a bit of dry throat and hoarse voice. So yes, the dust isn’t good for you, but the practical steps you can take to manage it do a pretty good job.

-- Greg D.

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GregD

783 posts in 2604 days


#14 posted 10-30-2014 03:29 PM


Dude, while Bill Pentz has done a lot of good for woodworking, he also scared the living crap out of all of us at some point or another. SamuraiSaw is right. It is beneficial to protect yourself as much as possible, but in the end there is no freaking way in the world that we woodworkers can avoid breathing in some dust particles.

...

Good luck and get into the shop!

- TheWoodenOyster

+1 on all of that. Do the best job with dust control that you can without going broke or crazy. Unless you have a particular sensitivity to wood dust you will probably find that is good enough.

I do find that when I start getting sloppy managing the dust in my shop I get a bit of dry throat and hoarse voice. So yes, the dust isn t good for me, but the practical steps one can take to manage it seem to do a pretty good job for me.

- GregD

-- Greg D.

View nightdeath4223's profile

nightdeath4223

9 posts in 811 days


#15 posted 10-30-2014 03:36 PM

My plan of attack is DC for ship collection and have the DC pointed towards and open garage since it will only be 1 hp. Of course have a respirator. The big question I have is what type of fan will be good to move air out of the garage. But I am not overreacting like I have “Ebola” I am just asking the thoughts of those that are experienced. I am not afraid of woodworking and I plan to go forward with it I was just inquiring.

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