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Forum topic by pwk5017 posted 10-09-2014 05:17 PM 2347 views 0 times favorited 17 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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pwk5017

51 posts in 788 days


10-09-2014 05:17 PM

Topic tags/keywords: dust collector cyclone torit

I am looking to buy a used Torit FB-19 dust collector. It has a motor swapped to a 5hp single phase motor(I think the original is 3 phase). For the life of me, I cannot find anything on this model dust collector, or anything on Torit in general. I know they are a mostly industrial purpose dust collector, where most guys park them outside their shop. I am currently using a 1.5hp dust collector retrofitted with a thien tophat and a wynn nano filter. It does what I would consider the “bare minimum”. My shop is in my basement, so I always worry about poor air quality. I have a JDS airtech HP running while im in the shop, and for an hour afterwards. I know I haven’t killed myself or my family yet through dust exposure, but I know I can do better. Is this torit cyclone something I should consider, or are they not as good as the clearvue and Oneida models for an indoor hobbyist shop? The torit is about 10 years old, new motor is 7ish? I would need to upgrade its current bag filter with something from wynn to filter to the level I desire. Still, the owner currently wants less than a third the new cost of a clearvue. Looking for any and all input, thanks.

Patrick


17 replies so far

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buildingmonkey

242 posts in 1010 days


#1 posted 10-09-2014 05:40 PM

Would be interesting to know the size of the impeller. Do you have a widebelt sander or edge sander? I have both, and would like to upgrade to a 3 or 5hp cyclone. Is the cyclone up so it can be turned on so you could check the cfm’s with a gauge? Check the price of filters, you probably need to spend 450 for 2 new filters from Wynn. Personally I would go for it, but I am in need.

-- Jim from Kansas

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3935 posts in 1956 days


#2 posted 10-09-2014 05:54 PM

Well, you know they are an industrial model, that’s why you don’t see much on hobbyist forums. I have a friend who has one, mounted outside his barn and it does yeoman service for him. His was also a factory 3 phase that had been converted (by him, I think). They have some of the features that Pentz found are needed to enhance separation, the air ramp and small body dimensions among them. My guess would be that the one you found exceeds the abilities or most of what’s available on the market (CV being one possible exception)..and will certainly be built as well as any. You can read a little about them here, but the a key point for me would be the impeller diameter…anything above 15” is going to be a kick ass machine. You can read more about them here, and that one at least deserves a good look. Also be sure to consider how you will sit up the filter arrangement, most of the came with a specific set up for the application, and that may not be suitable for home shop use. The one my friend has is unfiltered, just discharging into the open air outside the barn.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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pwk5017

51 posts in 788 days


#3 posted 10-09-2014 05:56 PM

The cyclone is up, and has power to it. I don’t have any device to measure windspeed to calculate CFMs. I might have to look into if those are expensive or not. I assume it has a 14”+/- impeller, which means it should be generating some serious air movement with the 5hp motor. If anything, it might be hampered, because of the filter it’s hooked up to. It looks like a single stage felt bag. I think if I get two of the wynn filters, it will be $350+shipping. Might require a bit of “tuning” to make the filters work. I guess my only cause for concern is the cyclone design and filter compatibility. The recent thread on cyclones makes it clear that not all cones are created equal. I don’t want to spend $700 to get this thing up and running just to discover the separation sucks, so my expensive filters are loaded quickly, and that I have a perpetual leak from the filter connection.

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CharlesA

3021 posts in 1260 days


#4 posted 10-09-2014 06:17 PM

How loud is it? I would imagine a 5 hp motor could produce some serious dbs in a basement.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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Manitario

2399 posts in 2345 days


#5 posted 10-09-2014 06:47 PM

This appears to be the dealer for Torit:
http://www2.donaldson.com/torit/en-us/pages/products/cyclonedustcollectors.aspx

I personally have no experience with this brand of DC, however if it has a 5hp motor and a 15” impeller and you’re willing to do the work of retrofitting cartridge filters to it, it probably will be fine. I’d be hesitant to buy it with only a 14” impeller, especially if it has a 5hp motor, a 5hp motor can handle up to a 16” impeller, wouldn’t make sense to have 5hp and a tiny impeller on it.

If it is going to cost you $700 already, for $1200 you could get a Penn State Ind. 3.5hp cyclone
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP1535S.html
For the price and quality, I don’t think anyone makes a better DC than Penn State; if I hadn’t gotten a Clearvue, I would have bought this DC. As for the noise; DC’s are loud, but if you put it into a well insulated closet it makes a big difference. My Clearvue is around 70db when shut in the closet I built for it; essentially is quieter than my shop vac….

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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English

517 posts in 940 days


#6 posted 10-09-2014 08:40 PM

I have installed several Torit DC’s. They make a fine industrial DC. I worked in the tire industry, we used them to pick up rubber dust off of the tread grinders. We rarely had any problem with them.

-- John, Suffolk Virgina

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pwk5017

51 posts in 788 days


#7 posted 10-10-2014 01:41 PM



This appears to be the dealer for Torit:
http://www2.donaldson.com/torit/en-us/pages/products/cyclonedustcollectors.aspx

I personally have no experience with this brand of DC, however if it has a 5hp motor and a 15” impeller and you re willing to do the work of retrofitting cartridge filters to it, it probably will be fine. I d be hesitant to buy it with only a 14” impeller, especially if it has a 5hp motor, a 5hp motor can handle up to a 16” impeller, wouldn t make sense to have 5hp and a tiny impeller on it.

If it is going to cost you $700 already, for $1200 you could get a Penn State Ind. 3.5hp cyclone
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP1535S.html
For the price and quality, I don t think anyone makes a better DC than Penn State; if I hadn t gotten a Clearvue, I would have bought this DC. As for the noise; DC s are loud, but if you put it into a well insulated closet it makes a big difference. My Clearvue is around 70db when shut in the closet I built for it; essentially is quieter than my shop vac….

- Manitario

Yeah, you brought up what I hinted at in the original post. I go through the trouble of going to get this thing, setting it up, getting the filters for it, etc etc and at the end of it all, I should have just waited 3 months of saving, and bought the clearvue, or the PSI model. Still, 500-700 bucks is 500-700 bucks… I am seriously considering that PSI 3.5hp model. I am dealing with 85” ceilings to the bottom of the joists, with an additional 10” to the subfloor between the joists. Enough for me to poke the motor housing up through. It seems like the PSI is a little more flexible to slight modifications than the clearvue or used torit would be. The torit is 100% fabricated metal top to bottom. I guess its time to research if 3.5hp is enough to get the job done. I don’t want to be looking at another dust collector for atleast a decade.

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Manitario

2399 posts in 2345 days


#8 posted 10-10-2014 04:40 PM

Yeah, cyclones do take up a lot of vertical floor space, it is unfortunately difficult to get around that. Some of the guys on the Clearvue forum have modded their CV setup to fit with low ceilings:
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php
http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/main.php

How big is your current workshop? With a decent setup and running 6” ducting I think most workshops could get by with a 3.5hp unit. I spent a lot of time playing around with the static pressure calculator on Bill Pentz’s site:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm Click on the “ducting” menu and then “static calculator spreadsheet”
The spreadsheet gives a pretty simple way of exploring different ducting setups. The calculated SP you can then use to see if eg. 3.5hp would be enough.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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CharlesA

3021 posts in 1260 days


#9 posted 10-10-2014 05:03 PM

After looking over this thread, I was reading a bit on Bill Pentz’s site about the hp requirement for dust collection. I noticed this paragraph in particular (emphasis mine):

We found no under 2 hp cyclone and no under 1.5 hp dust collector moved the real 350 CFM minimum required to get good chip collection on more than one stationary tool running at a time. We found no under 3 hp dust collector or under 5 hp cyclone had the full 1000 CFM airflow minimum needed to good fine dust collection at more than one stationary tool working at a time.

Most hobby woodworkers, like me, never run more than one stationary tool at a time. I have pvc with blast gates running to every tool, and (most of the time—I forget sometimes) I only have one blast gate open. Does this mean that the 3.5hp requirement applies only to folks who are running open connections to multiple tools?

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3935 posts in 1956 days


#10 posted 10-10-2014 05:42 PM

I can’t speak for Bill, but I can tell you what I believe: NO. I think he means the DC is pulling through the one tool running. That said, there is so much info there that you can get lost trying to tie everything together. But the 5 HP cyclone will only pull the needed 1000 CFM for his criteria when being open to one tool, and even then only with adequate ducting (6”). If you have a DC that size with only 4” ducting, leaving other gates open will have minimal impact.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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CharlesA

3021 posts in 1260 days


#11 posted 10-10-2014 06:13 PM

Fred, I keep reading those sentences over and over. I was convinced that you had the right reading, and then I read again. I’ve read much of his site, but I am by no means an expert on it all—who can read that much about dust collection!

For your reading, it would seem like the sentence would read: No under 3hp dust collector had the full 1000 cfm airflow minimum needed to good fine dust collection even when running at one stationary tool at a time. But he has the interesting disclaimer, “more than one.” Whatever, the case, I don’t want to derail your thread.

My question arose when I realized the OP was installing a 3.5hp dust collector in a basement, then I read Pentz again, and it made sense. Then I read this paragraph more closely, etc.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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Fred Hargis

3935 posts in 1956 days


#12 posted 10-10-2014 06:31 PM

He talks over and over about needing the high flow at each tool; which is why I concluded what i did. In any case, I do know he replies to e-mails when asked questions.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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pwk5017

51 posts in 788 days


#13 posted 10-10-2014 06:31 PM

No need to apologize, its the same question I am asking right now. I think I am giving up on the Torit. The deal was my 1.5hp shopfox with wynn nano and plexi thein tophat, plus $300 cash for the torit. Then I began to think about it, and im going to spend $350-400 on filters from wynn. I am up to $700 for a 7+ year old machine that will require filter tinkering, might not even fit in my basement, and will certainly be a pain to go pick up. Whoever brought up the 3.5hp tempest kinda got me thinking, because I am 95% sure it will fit in a 85” ceiling with 95” between joists. Its $1200, and I am semi confident I can sell my current setup for $400 on CL. Its a unique opportunity for a solid collector. If I was in a garage, I wouldn’t bother upgrading. Anyways, the net cost for the tempest is around $800. Seems dumb to go with the torit when we are talking $100. Dumb unless the 1.5hp is that significant of an upgrade? My shop is pretty condensed, with everything being within 10’ of my current DC. With the cyclone, I would have roughly the same layout, so we are talking pretty short runs. I have an email into PSI at the moment. Interesting to compare their 2.5hp, 3.5hp,5hp models. Really not much of a difference in CFM and static pressure from 3.5 to 5.

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2399 posts in 2345 days


#14 posted 10-10-2014 08:37 PM



After looking over this thread, I was reading a bit on Bill Pentz s site about the hp requirement for dust collection. I noticed this paragraph in particular (emphasis mine):

We found no under 2 hp cyclone and no under 1.5 hp dust collector moved the real 350 CFM minimum required to get good chip collection on more than one stationary tool running at a time. We found no under 3 hp dust collector or under 5 hp cyclone had the full 1000 CFM airflow minimum needed to good fine dust collection at more than one stationary tool working at a time.

Most hobby woodworkers, like me, never run more than one stationary tool at a time. I have pvc with blast gates running to every tool, and (most of the time—I forget sometimes) I only have one blast gate open. Does this mean that the 3.5hp requirement applies only to folks who are running open connections to multiple tools?

- CharlesA

At a static pressure of 7-8 which is about average for a small shop with 6 inch ducting and several short runs of 4” flex tube, 1.5 and 2hp machines won’t have enough power to overcome the static pressure and maintain appropriate CFM. Even the often inflated fan curves for those machines show a dramatic drop of CFM at any real life static pressures.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

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CharlesA

3021 posts in 1260 days


#15 posted 10-11-2014 04:25 AM

So, I,wrote Bill Pentz. He gave me permission to post his reply. The short version: although I think I parsed,the quoted sentences correctly, Fred’s reading is correct:


Charles,

A simple question that requires a complex answer if you want to understand what is going on.

First, to get good chip collection which means collecting the same stuff we would otherwise sweep up with a broom, we have to start with good hoods that control, capture, and redirect the fast moving dust filled air streams for collection. Most of our blades, bits, cutters, and even sandpaper launch dust filled air streams at over 100 miles an hour. Our dust collectors and cyclones almost all operate with air speeds around 40 miles an hour. Our dust collection systems lose every time unless the hoods manage the fast moving stuff.

Second, normal dust collection pressures only have the ability to generate about 4000 feet per minute (FPM) air speed in our ducts. Because at dust collection pressures air is more like water any reduction in pipe diameter has the same effect as partially closing a water valve. It limits flow. Although air will speed up a little around small obstructions, they all significantly limit flow. Dwyer Instruments found that at typical dust collection pressures just ten diameters of duct will limit the total airflow to how much air can get through that diameter. This makes a huge difference to woodworkers. The best small shop dust 1.5 hp collectors (meaning Delta and Jet only) move a maximum CFM of 1000 to 1200 CFM depending upon test pipe diameter. These 1000 CFM plus air flows drop significantly when we use smaller than 7” diameter duct. We can easily calculate expected cubic feet per minute (CFM) airflow through any sized dust using the air formula FPM = CFM/Area where FPM is in feet per minute air speed and Area is measured in square feet. Testing real units show these numbers are actually a little higher than most small systems provide, probably because our equipment is not as carefully or well engineered as good commercial equipment.
Pipe Diameter Calculated CFM
1 22
1.5 49
2 87
2.5 136
3 196
3.5 267
4 349
4.5 442
5 545
5.5 660
6 785
6.5 922
7 1069
7.5 1227
8 1396
8.5 1576
9 1767
9.5 1969
10 2182
Third, fine dust collection is not witchcraft but instead well understood engineering.

To collect the heavier sawdust and chips that we would otherwise sweep up with a broom, what many call good chip collection, we need an airspeed of right at 4000 FPM right at the dust to do the collection. Moreover, without at least 3800 FPM in our pipes, the vertical runs will plug and without at least 2800 FPM airspeed our horizontal runs will plug.

Fine we need to understand more about fine dust. Woodworking makes huge amounts of fine dust compared to how little fine airborne dust it takes to create very unhealthy air. Every 20 pounds of sawdust makes enough fine dust to cause over 15,000 typical two-car garage sized shops to fail EPA air quality tests. Air cleaners and exhaust fans work by diluting the air, so it takes many full air changes to amply reduce the dust levels to safe enough to pass air quality tests. Fine dust lasts nearly forever unless it gets wet. This long lifetime couples with making too much and poor collection to cause almost all including very clean looking shops that vent inside to badly fail their air quality tests before doing any woodworking. Yes, most small shops have built up so much fine invisible dust that just walking around stirs enough airborne to fail our air quality tests without doing any woodworking. These are the reasons why experts who guarantee customer air quality say good fine dust collection requires us to collect the fine dust as it gets made.

Most small shop users fail to relate what they know about dust collection and instead foolishly confuse the differences between how blown air and sucked air behave. Most know the lightest of breaths through a straw will move airborne dust. Most then wrongly assume that our dust collectors that can suck up a tape measure should easily suck in the fine dust. Try moving the same airborne dust by sucking. Turns out we must suck right next to the particle to get any movement at all. Most already know this from using our shop vacuums. To capture dust we must move the vacuum nozzle right next to what it is that we want to collect. Even just a little bit away, we get no collection of the heavier sawdust and chips. The reason is air speed falls of at roughly four times Pi times the distance squared. As soon as our air speed drops below 3800 FPM we stop sucking up sawdust and chips and stuff does not get sucked all the way up into the hose. So, yes our small shop dust collectors and shop vacuums do suck in lots of dust, but remember every 1% that they miss launches enough fine dust airborne from every 20 pounds of sawdust made to cause 151 typical sized small shops to fail an EPA air quality test. Blower technology is mature meaning the same size, type and speed blower from any of the main commercial blower makes will move near identical amounts of air. This means we can look at blower fan tables and have a pretty good idea of what we need for any commercial blower. These fan tables show we need Second, we already know from experience that sucking works very differently than blowing dust around. We have all used shop vacuums.

What we need for good fine dust collection is well understood. To amply pull in the fine dust, decades of experience shows like good chip collection we have to start with good hoods. Then for good fine dust collection we have to totally enclose the dust making activities such as some Festool hand held power tools do or alternatively move enough air to pull in the fine dust before it can be blown away by normal room air currents. More than forty years of success building systems that meet air quality requirements shows to get the fine dust before it blows away we need at least 50 FPM airspeed out to a distance of just over 15.25” in all directions from the working areas of our tools. Practical experience show this takes right at 1000 CFM for most small shop stationary tools with upgraded hoods. The math and science back up this experience. If you use the area formula for a sphere coupled with the air formula, it shows we need just over 1000 CFM to move this much air. That is nearly three times what it takes to get good chip collection.

Again with blower technology being mature for commercial blowers we see at the typical 6 to 12 water column inches of resistance from normal ducting and a fine filter it takes at least a 3 hp dust collector to move ample air for good fine dust collection at each source. It takes about 1/2 hp to power my very efficient cyclone design as it takes a lot of work to force air into a tight separation spiral. Most other cyclones are far less efficient with most needing at least 3/4 hp to as much as 1.25 hp to power their cyclones. Additionally, except for Jet and Delta most small shop dust collector and cyclone blowers are not nearly as well made and don’t run near as efficiently as most commercial blowers, so we often need bigger blowers and motors when we buy inexpensive blowers. Add these extra overheads to power a cyclone and our 3 hp blower needed for a dust collector bumps in most systems to at least 4.2 hp to move a real 1000 CFM. Using undersized duct and filters will require even bigger blowers and motors to overcome that extra resistance.

This kind of gives you a full one page tutorial and touches on the major concerns. Unfortunately, our vendors choose not to own responsibility to help us make it work, so we have to do the hard part. Toughest is of course that either my HF or Jet 1.5 hp DC does an excellent job that looks perfect until I pull our my www.DylosProducts.com Pro particle counter. Then the whole ball game changes.

So from my web pages: Bottom Line: Please do not get overwhelmed and forget your goal is to protect yourself and those close to you from fine dust. I strongly recommend good fine dust collection and my pages share how, but until you can install good fine dust collection it is easy and affordable to get good fine dust protection. The best protection is to wear a good properly fit dual cartridge NIOSH approved respirator mask and make sure we don’t build up lots of fine dust by keeping our shops aired out. The best way to avoid fine dust build up is to open our main doors a bit and blow a strong fan out a side door or window to create a good airflow through our shops. Our particle counters show for best protection we need to put on our respirator mask and start venting our shop before we start making fine dust and both the mask and fan need to stay on for about a half hour after we stop making fine dust.

-- "Man is the only animal which devours his own, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." ~Thomas Jefferson

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