Need DC upgrade....

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Forum topic by , posted 09-11-2014 01:13 AM 1105 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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2387 posts in 3749 days

09-11-2014 01:13 AM

Just more thinking out loud here. Maybe someone might have some great insightful information or advice on my thoughts. We added a CNC and now I see a DC upgrade in the future.

What we currently run is a 5 hp Leeson (19 or 20 amps) with a 14” impeller. It is made by Delta. It is a Cyclone. Our old shop was smaller with shorter runs and 6” duct and the suction was so strong it would hold the weight of my arm in place in the duct.

Since moving to our new shop which is 40*80’ long, we now have longer runs of pipe. My main trunk that feeds everything is 8”. I noticed since getting up and running the suction is not strong enough to hold my arm anymore.

Then adding the CNC, I had to run another main trunk to the CNC, this time I used 6” pipe. But this run is 55-60’. Now my pipe going to the CNC is always clogging with small sliver rip off from dado cuts on the CNC. The run has just one 90 elbow then runs straight 50 or so ft to the CNC, then one more 90 elbow aimed down to gantry. The suction is very minimal at the CNC.

A couple thoughts. I can add more elbows everywhere I have a 90 degree, making more of a sweeping curve. The only 90 degree elbows I have in the design is on the drops where I aim down towards the machine. Mostly I am using Wye branches.

I have taped all the joints so I am not leaking suction that I am aware of.

I don’t really want to start over with a new model Cyclone. I don’t think other comparable 5 hp models will be that much upgrade, as I feel it is the length of runs that I am working against.

I am wondering if just upgrading to a 16” impeller would give me much upgrade???

Then I think maybe I could get a 7.5 hp motor to go along with an 18” impeller, that seems as it would be an upgrade. I could fabricate a new impeller housing and likely keep using the same cyclone. This seems as it would be a more affordable route just buying a new motor and a new impeller. And going with 7.5 hp allows me to stay with single phase. I could go 10 hp single phase but we are already pushing our upper power limitations with running our CNC, RPC and Becker Pump.

One more thing to add, not sure that this really makes any difference. But the Cyclone is outside, and I don’t have a barral or any filter to catch any of the shavings or dust. It all just flies into the air. I stopped using a barrel under the cyclone because it got full to quickly. Not sure though if this is causing me to loose any suction power???

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14 replies so far

View Loren's profile


10477 posts in 3850 days

#1 posted 09-11-2014 01:23 AM

I sold a 3hp dust collector to a cabinetmaker who
was going to install the blower inline between his main
dust collector and the CNC with a drop-out box.

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2387 posts in 3749 days

#2 posted 09-11-2014 01:43 AM

Adding another impeller and impeller housing in line between the main DC and CNC. I do see a lot of smaller DC for sale on CL a lot, mostly 2 hp, some are 3 hp.

I also see larger DC a lot at auctions, but those tend to be 10 hp or larger, mostly from cabinet shops but I cannot go with a very large DC since I am trying to the least amount of power required. We have a full 200 amp service for the shop, but that service is being shared with my home. That tends to take away some from my available power.

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View Crank50's profile


173 posts in 1778 days

#3 posted 09-11-2014 04:04 AM

It is possible you could go to a 7.5 hp motor and belt drive to speed up the existing impeller. CFM is directly proportional to fan speed. Increase speed 12% and you increase volume by 12%. That will also increase the pressure and will probably use up all your 7.5 hp because hp varies by the cube of the pressure change. In any case, with a belt drive you can change sheave (pulley) sizes to adjust the performance to exactly use all the motor hp you have. Caution is in order because too much speed will cause the impeller to fly apart.

You really need to check the actual CFM and design the duct size to maintain a velocity of about 3500 FPM on those long runs to prevent dropout and clogging.

With 7.5 or 10 hp you are getting to the point where the cost of operation can be significant and spending a little to have a proper design will pay for itself.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2695 days

#4 posted 09-11-2014 11:49 AM

It would be expensive to get a 16” impeller for your existing motor (CV would sell you one). Removing the old impeller from the motor shaft can be a PITA (DAHIKT), and you would need (I guess) to redo the blower housing (they sell that as well)..but it still might be cheaper than some alternatives.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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2387 posts in 3749 days

#5 posted 09-11-2014 12:08 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I am not sure I should have ran 8” main trunk, but the Delta Cyclone has an 8” inlet so I figured it was specified for 8” duct. Not sure if it is just my runs are too long, or that I went to 8” main trunk since moving to our new shop.

But I have no desire swapping out duct back to 6”. Too much work and cost involved. Would prefer placing the effort into upgrading. I have read on the Clearvue. It is tempting to just buy their 16” impeller and impeller housing. I think with our CNC I could easily fabricate an impeller housing very similar to what is listed on Clearvue site. I do believe their motor is the same Leeson as what I already have so that would not upgrade any. I am beginning to think maybe my smaller 14” impeller is just not up to task. Reading some on Bill’s sight, it appears to maximize the 5 hp motor I would need to go 16”. I just know this is an upgrade soon in the making.

I even considered parking a smaller 3 hp unit right next to the CNC. But that would require running a 220 circuit around 100’. Then I would have to find a place to park the 3 hp unit.

Crank, I follow your advice, just not sure about the details such as speed. I would not want the impeller to explode because I pushed it too fast. That could be pretty bad if that were to happen.


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View buildingmonkey's profile


242 posts in 1750 days

#6 posted 09-11-2014 12:13 PM

If you have no barrel, do you just have the bottom of the cyclone open? If so you are not even using it. The dust is just blowing out into the yard. A 16” blower should improve your cfm’s, and your 5hp motor should be able to power it. Was reading Bill Pentz web site a week or 2 ago, he said a guy has some 15.5” impellers designed for Bills system for sale think for 250. Might check it out. Said they were designed for the same cfm as the 16” clearvue. If the cyclone is open, is it not sucking air in the bottom of the cyclone, taking up your suction?

-- Jim from Kansas

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2387 posts in 3749 days

#7 posted 09-11-2014 12:28 PM

That is very well possible. Would I need to seal off the bottom of the cyclone??? I will try that to see if I gain anything. My cyclone portion might fill up then…

I also read the same thing about the 15.5” impellers for sale. But I think clearvue sells their 16” impellers for 275 which would not be too bad of an expense, especially compared with spending 2,000.00 for a whole new clearvue unit.

I might also watch auctions as I have done a lot with auctions. Only I tend to find units far to large for what we can run at auctions.

I think in my case, if I were able to get a single phase 7.5 hp motor combined with an 18” impeller, that would move some air. But I am not able to find any impeller manufacturers and would not know where to start looking.

I am giving serious consideration to just purchasing the 16” impeller from Clearvue. Sounds like a Fall project :)

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View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2695 days

#8 posted 09-11-2014 12:49 PM

Oops, missed the part about the barrel. If that’s as I envision it, I can’t imagine you’re getting an air flow through the ducting. Put one back in place first and see what you get.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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2387 posts in 3749 days

#9 posted 09-11-2014 01:36 PM

Yeah, go figure. I sealed off the bottom portion of the cyclone, and we now have decent suction. But now will my cyclone fill up? I guess I will see how that goes. Otherwise I will have to look for a proper sized barrel to seal the underside with. Those barrels fill up so quickly.

I will still look at getting a larger impeller in the upcoming future hoping to increase air movement.

Thanks guys.

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View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5177 posts in 2695 days

#10 posted 09-11-2014 03:21 PM

I don’t think the cyclone will fill up, unless it gets clogged. The trash should go through the blower and out the discharge. You more-or-less turned your cyclone into a single stage collector.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View dozer57's profile


92 posts in 1702 days

#11 posted 09-11-2014 03:56 PM

just a thought, if you are plugging up and you use plastic pipe for your runs you my be building up static electricity. this will cause small particals to stick in the pipe, over time a build up will cause it to plug. I was having same issue on runs in my shop that were 20 feet or longer then i saw somewhere to wrap a coil of bare copper around the pipe and ground it to the dc. I used self drill self tap screw to attach to every elbow and joint. this also hold your joint tight with out any glue so you can change your set up with ease and no need to buy more fittings. I have not plugged once and no build up in pipes. Wood dust traveling in plastic pipe is like rubbing a balloon on your hair, everything sticks. one more thing at the end of each run ground it to the tool also.

View Manitario's profile


2682 posts in 3085 days

#12 posted 09-11-2014 04:11 PM

A 14” impeller on a 5hp motor will only use roughly 2-3hp; as others have mentioned upgrading to a 16” impeller will make a big difference and properly use the full capacity of the 5hp motor.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View bigblockyeti's profile


5286 posts in 1923 days

#13 posted 09-11-2014 05:23 PM

You can remove the barrel and install an airlock (possibly expensive) to the bottom of the cyclone and allow the dust to fall out while maintaining a seal in your system. Despite taping the joints, you very probably still have some leaks, the objective being to get those to a minimum. Given the airflow going through a dust collection system, a few small leaks aren’t of great concern, it’s when you have many or large leaks that begin to effect performance. Your duct work could be pressure tested too, with smoke you’d be able to see exactly where you can further your sealing efforts. BTW an airlock locks the air pressure (or vacuum) on one side while the other side is usually vented to the atmosphere, a revolving valve very similar to a revolving door allows the solids to be dropped out.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View ,'s profile


2387 posts in 3749 days

#14 posted 09-11-2014 05:38 PM

Thanks for the info everyone. I do think I will upgrade the impeller, that is likely all the upgrade I will need. I will go through and check for any leaks.

By the way, I am using metal pipe throughout.

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