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Forum topic by RonGoldberg posted 06-21-2014 02:17 PM 1626 views 0 times favorited 8 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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RonGoldberg

44 posts in 1818 days


06-21-2014 02:17 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question on dust collector

Hey Lumberjocks,
LIke most I have been obsessing over a cyclone dust collection system for my basement shop. Almost pulled the trigger last year but daughters braces took precidence. Recieved an email from Jet tools featuring their new “vortex” style dust collection system.

“The JET DC-1200VX features the exclusive Vortex Coneā„¢ which improves chip separation to prevent clogging of the filter, and increases packing efficiency of the collector bag. The high air velocity (CFM) stands up to any competitive specifications”

Does anyone know if this is a true viable option to having a true “cyclone” system?
All thoughts are welcome. FYI, my shop is 11 feet by 20 feet and I want to connect dust collector via ducts to each machine running only one machine at a time. The inlet port is at the bottom on this new jet item so I would have to immediately have to direct any ductwork 90 degrees to make sure ductwork is not on the floor but up high away from my feet.

Thanks,
Ron
Mclean, VA


8 replies so far

View gtbuzz's profile

gtbuzz

427 posts in 1902 days


#1 posted 06-21-2014 03:02 PM

Vortex cone works, but it’s not a true cyclone, by any stretch of the imagination (although I do believe its better than nothing). From all the tests I’ve seen, you’re also much better building an internal Thien baffle for that particular style of dust collector anyway.

I had a Jet DC1100 that’s very similar to that one, sans the vortex cone thing. It was a very simple mod to retrofit a Thien baffle into the ring. This method has a major advantage in that there isn’t any additional space required, but one downside, is that you don’t have anything protecting the impeller, vs a traditional cyclone or a preseparator. I accidentally sucked in an entire jar of Shellawax once and while the impeller wasn’t even damaged at all, it was a major PITA to clean up that mess and I decided I’d rather move to a pre-separator.

I then bought this cyclone separator off of ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector-/281067825681

and paired it with the motor from the DC1100 with a Wynn canister filter. Worked pretty well, but in my ever expanding quest to always upgrade my shop, I eventually replaced the DC1100 with a Shop Fox 3hp DC motor because I found a good price on it.

One other thing – regarding the canister on the DC-1200VX, I believe that’s a 2 micron canister. You’d be much better off with 1 or less, or one of the Wynn Nano cartridges.

I just found this dust collector near you:

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/4511605374.html

Say you give him full price. You’d spend maybe $20 in parts to build an internal baffle (or maybe $40 for a pre-separator). A Wynn nano cartridge will run you about $150-$175, depending on which one he recommends for the ring size. You’d be in it for no more than $400, which is nearly half of what you’d spend on the Jet with nearly identical motor performance, but far superior filtering performance.

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Loren

8295 posts in 3108 days


#2 posted 06-21-2014 04:16 PM

To get real cyclone benefits you’ll need about a 5hp blower and a real
cyclone. Everything else is a less effective variant that still will separate
out heavier chips, but won’t be able to capture fine dust as well.

In a basement shop with no door to the outside you may want to
consider the real cyclone. I have an above ground shop with a 1.5hp
cyclone and it’s a convenience but it misses a lot. I have another,
2 bag dust collector I use for my sanders and planer.

View RonGoldberg's profile

RonGoldberg

44 posts in 1818 days


#3 posted 06-21-2014 05:59 PM

Thanks Loren and Gtbuzz,

I already have a Jet filter hanging in my basement (forgot to say). I think I am going to end up purchasing the Grizzly 443 1.5 HP (is just fits in my shop). The great HP units are all too tall for my ceiling. Due to shop size, having flex hose on the ground to each machine with blast gates is to much clutter. Going to run 6 inch steel duct trunk to 4 in drops with blast gates so I can run one machine at a time. I believe since the machines are about 6-8 feet from cyclone, I should be fine with the CFM. Any additional thoughts are welcome. Thanks.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

3926 posts in 2704 days


#4 posted 06-21-2014 09:01 PM

True cyclone’s are pretty tall. They can be around 8 to 9 feet tall. Look at the DC’s outside a school wood shop. They are real tall, 20’ and more. You have to compromise to have a cyclone. A smaller chip collector container can help. I understand the Oneida, super dust deputy is a very good setup.

View English's profile

English

517 posts in 938 days


#5 posted 06-23-2014 01:05 AM

Be sure to check the specs on the grizzly 443, it says it will flow 1025 CFM at 2.6”sp, that means at higher than 2.6” sp of duct losses the flow will go down. To give you an example of duct losses a 10’ section of 4” flex hose will drop 15” sp with 1000 cfm of flow. The same hose will drop 4.8 at 500 cfm.

The general recommendation for flow at most machines these days, to collect the fine dust that causes health issues is 1000 CFM. The grizzly will only do this if connected all the way to the machine with 6” duct with no more than 2 – 90 elbow and only a few inches of flex. Also if you plan to collect the fine dust you will need to modify the ports at the machine to either multiple 4” or upgrade to 6” ports

Most new woodworking tools are still not designed to allow for enough air flow to capture the fine dust, so it is up to us to modify them for our own health. I have modified 4 of my machines still have a few to go but I am getting there.

As for a dust collector for your shop, I would look for a cyclone that has a larger impeller 14” or 15” and can work to over come 10” or more in static. In my shop my worst run has 35’ total of 6” pipe with 3- long radius 90 elbow and one wye with zero to no more that 2 feet of flex. The static pressure measured at my dust collector is 4”

There are other ways to keep the height down, like the Grizzly 443 did use a smaller drum, you could remote mount the blower using a 90 on top of the cyclone, it would cost some efficiency losses but that should be over come by the larger impeller.

As for true cyclones I have seen them all sizes, commercial shops and schools have to plan for all machines to be used at the same time. So the flow requirements are much higher than in a one man shop. They have to have 20 ft tall cyclones with 20 – 100 hp motors.

Cyclones made for hobbyist work shops are designed to fit under a standard 8’ ceiling. To do this the cone to cylinder ratio as been reduced in most cases from the standard ratio of 3 to 1.64. Bill Pentz determined that this was a very effective trade off point between max efficiency and fit. Most of the designs on the market today have benefited from his research. But even at this modified design they still are true cyclones.

Another spec to watch for is the total filter surface area. A felt bag filter is between 20 – 40 sq ft of filter are the better grade systems will give you MERV 15 filters at 400 sq ft or more. That ten times the bag.

I have rambled on here. But do suggest that you draw up you system calculate your duct needs, then select a dust collector that will meet you needs. Bill Pentz has a great duct loss calculator at his web site here is a link to the calculator . http://www.billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/staticcalc.xls

-- John, Suffolk Virgina

View RonGoldberg's profile

RonGoldberg

44 posts in 1818 days


#6 posted 06-23-2014 01:17 PM

John (From Virginia) – wow, excellent response! Thank you very, very much. Can we talk live? I have a schematic drawn of my shop with tool placement and most efficient placement of 6” duct trunk line. I would very much like you to take a look and comment. Can I email to you? my email is rongoldberg@cox.net. My cell is 571-220-2655. The TS would be literally about 3-4 ft from cyclone inlet. Planner about 6 feet and jointer the same. Really small shop with fairly efficient duct layout (proposed, not completed) I have a 220 all ready to plug into. Just need to choose the correct cyclone. Height is limiting factor. I am also looking at the Penn State tempest 2 hp as it is only 85 inches tall, while their larger 2.5 is a better machine- it is too tall. Would only run one tool at a time so as long as the CFM is > 500 with all the decreases from ductwork, I think I am good. But need someone else to look at it with me that is non-biased. Let me know. Thanks. I believe the Penn State model has the larger impeller you are recommending. See link below.

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RonGoldberg

44 posts in 1818 days


#7 posted 06-23-2014 10:38 PM

the reply was meant for English (not John, my bad). English see my above response and let me know if it is ok to contact you directly.
Thanks,
Ron
McLean, VA

View English's profile

English

517 posts in 938 days


#8 posted 06-24-2014 02:27 AM

I have sent you my email and phone by IM and email. Let me know how I can help

-- John, Suffolk Virgina

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