Developing a "Presence" (formerly Image) of Yourself and Your Work for Customers.

Mark, when I think of you I immediately think of a man who is obedient to 1 Cor. 10:31. That’s a pretty good image to have developed, my friend.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.canterburybaptist.org/

Hi Mark
I remember about 6 – 8 months ago there was a thread on here about what each person considered themselves as far as being a woodworker or an artist.
Back then i thought of myself as a woodworker more then an artist but ever since i made that statement i have been called an artist a lot more then a woodworker .
It made me realize that what i thought i was projecting to other people wasn’t necessary the same thing they were thinking .
Now i just try to do the best job i can do and hope that people can see it.
As long as they walk away with a positive thought then i am happy.

-- John in Cranbrook http://www.extremebirdhouse.com ....http://community.webshots.com/user/cranbrook2

I’ve had to sleep on this one. It seems tied into your question about heirloom furniture. I guess my gut reaction is just revulsion. I’ve seen so much “image” building I just think of it as a form of lying. I get put off by hearing about quality that is not backed up by reality. Yet it is believed by customers all the same.

That said it is very important to be able to communicate to people….honestly. I’m thinking your work tells a story in such a way that people treasure it. I’m very slow to do any self promotion and it sure hurts my art. So I see the need, but I also hate the idea of becoming a one product craftsman. It seems to be the way of the world, but I’d sure get tired of building just one thing.

I was hoping for more replies, because this is one of my main weak points. Where is the line between promotion of my work and self promotion?

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

A couple of good points Dennis. We all would like to be more than the proverbial “one trick pony”. But, I think that what most of us are going for is a “style” of woodworking, rather than the actual noted piece. It would be nice to build a line of furniture that has a style that people can say that it is a DeCou, or a Mitchell creation. Even if you build more than one of the same piece, it does not have to be an exact copy (unless the customer wants that). Rather, the flowing lines, the particular wood, the style of doors, whatever may be the defining thing.

As for the self promotion vs. work, that is probably a fine line. Is it considered promoting the work if you say I use the best materials, do the work by hand, take time and care to match the grains, etc.? I would say yes that is promoting the work. If you say I am the best builder ever to pick up a tool, that would probably fall under self promotion. I think if you focus the statements on the skills and resources that go into your creations, then it is probably promoting your work.

Even after all of that being said, if I could produce rockers like Maloof, I might just be satisfied with being the one trick pony!

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Hi Guys;

A very interesting topic for sure.

I’ve always tried to provide a professional, knowledable, dependable, and maybe most important of all, a consistant level of quality.

We seem to attract high end work due to the demands I place upon myself and my employees.

I’ve noticed over the past thirty years, clients have labeled me as; “very expensive, but very good”.

I find this to be somewhat insulting. As though I am overcharging for my services. On the flip side of that, since I don’t advertise, when we are recommended by a client to a potential client, the new client is expecting high quality, along with a high price.

Just a couple weeks ago, I had this said to me by a client we did a fair amount of work for. Very nice work, which required a high level of expertise, in both engineering and producing.

He was asking me to do some work over a Holiday weekend, but started out by telling me how expensive I am. In the next sentence, he was asking me to do a fair amount of work for him during that weekend.

I told him no thank you, I was busy.

I sent him an email the following day, letting him know I was insulted by his comment about being too expensive. I pointed out to him, out of the five cars in his driveway, the cheapest one was about $100,000.00. I then asked if the car dealers charged him the same price as a chevy. Or did they charge for the quality he was receiving. I got no respone to this question.

So, the bottom line here is, be true to yourself first. The clients will both promote and label you themselves.

Popeye said it best, “I am what I am”. If someone has a problem with who you are, it’s a bad fit anyway so don’t worry about it.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

ah.. the old “just is” as Frank puts it.

work promotion vs self promotion.
I think the discussions we have had here ALL relate to SELF promotion—- the standards by which one works comes from the “self”... the artistic expressions, the technical skills—are part of “self”. Statements such as “I am the best” are “ego promotion”.

What is the image you want to portray? it is your inner “self”... your strengths and beliefs… integrity, honour… skill.. “master craftsman”. A beautifully made chair is a product until you can “see” the workmanship and the love of the wood that went into it—and THEN it is a piece of wood art, a treasure, an heirloom of today or tomorrow.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Developing an image of yourself (at least your work self) is important. It helps define your direction, as someone said above, the type of work and commissions you agree to. Listen to the people around you and try to build on what feels right. Self promotion is for shallow people in general but there seems to be a line that you have to cross to become categorized as shallow. Each person will have to find that line for him (or her) self.

Lee, why would you be insulted by a customer saying your to expensive when clearly he keeps wanting you to work for him. It seems to me to be high praise, he puts your work in the “must have no latter what the cost” column.

Perception (our own perception and others) creates reality in some respects. It is probably one of the reasons that creating an image of what you want others to see is important.

Well that is my early morning thoughts, ask me again after another coffee.

-- "so much to learn and so little time"..

know who you are … be who you are .. and others will see you as you are….

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Mark, whenever I see your name on a post the image that pops into my head is all those wonderfully done projects and deep thoughts of yours. I think he is a professional, talented, caring and honest man. Your image has been built, now you just need to live up to it and I know you will.

-- Jesus is Lord!

Thanks folks, I wasn’t so much meaning to find out what “my” image on lumberjocks was from you, but more what you perceive as your own image management. I appreciate the feed back though, seriously I do. But, I wasn’t really thinking of making this Forum a “talk about Mark” discussion. It is embarrasing you know.

Developing an image is not lying, it is a strategically planned methodology for being the type of business person you want to be. Woodworking businesses are too small to work on a lie, as we will be found out too easy. People deal with us as people, not a corporation.

I had a boss one time that used to say several times a week, “It’s not personal, it’s just business.” This was usually when he felt that he needed to make a decision that would hurt a person, but help the bottom line of the company. In my mind, there is no difference, people are who we do business with.

So, what I was really trying to develop here was the strategic thinking that I find most of us woodworkers don’t want to do. Namely, what type of woodworker do you “Want” to be.

This “image” will dictate everything from the type of tools you buy, the shop space you need, the location of your shop, the hours you need to dedicate to the craft, the training you need to buy, the projects you say “yes”, and “no” to, the shows you attend, whether you will have employees, and ultimately, where you will be in this business.

If you take whatever comes along, that people ask you for, you will end up somewhere different than you would have if you had taken the time to figure out what you wanted to build, and head that direction. I know this from experience. I ended up doing drywall and fences, for crying out loud.

What I am finding is that guys that email me who want to do something different with their careers, haven’t yet started any planning, or thinking about how to do it. They haven’t started networking yet, or developing an idea of how they will communicate to the “people” they will be doing business with. They don’t even know yet what type of woodworking they want to do. People will talk about you, what do you want them to tell each other about you and your work. That is the “image” that I was trying to discuss. For some that have emailed me, it is as if hoping it will happen will just make it happen. At least hoping doesn’t work for me much.

There is a long list of sacrifices and expenses that you will need to incur to make it in woodworking, and it will take many years to see your dream develop. The sooner you can figure out where you going, the faster you can get on that path, and avoid the numerous opportunities to take side roads and “Y’s”.

That was my thought on developing an “image”. I didn’t mean for it to come across that this meant anything about marketing a lie, or selling something you are not.

Sorry for the confusion,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

the discussion is a good example of figuring out one’s image… take a look at your own style/beliefs etc.

This reminds me of the process on the American/Canadian Idol Series: the young singles are constantly being reminded to “know who they are”—that should be portrayed in the songs they sing, their style of singing, and the clothing that they choose to wear. Everything is part of the image and you can’t portrait it if you don’t know what it is!

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Thanks folks, I wasn’t so much meaning to find out what “my” image on lumberjocks was from you, but more what you perceive as your own image management. I appreciate the feed back though, seriously I do. But, I wasn’t really thinking of making this Forum a “talk about Mark” discussion. It is embarrasing you know.

Developing an image is not lying, it is a strategically planned methodology for being the type of business person you want to be. Woodworking businesses are too small to work on a lie, as we will be found out too easy. People deal with us as people, not a corporation.

I had a boss one time that used to say several times a week, “It’s not personal, it’s just business.” This was usually when he felt that he needed to make a decision that would hurt a person, but help the bottom line of the company. In my mind, there is no difference, people are who we do business with.

So, what I was really trying to develop here was the strategic thinking that I find most of us woodworkers don’t want to do. Namely, what type of woodworker do you “Want” to be.

This “image” will dictate everything from the type of tools you buy, the shop space you need, the location of your shop, the hours you need to dedicate to the craft, the training you need to buy, the projects you say “yes”, and “no” to, the shows you attend, whether you will have employees, and ultimately, where you will be in this business.

If you take whatever comes along, that people ask you for, you will end up somewhere different than you would have if you had taken the time to figure out what you wanted to build, and head that direction. I know this from experience. I ended up doing drywall and fences, for crying out loud.

What I am finding is that guys that email me who want to do something different with their careers, haven’t yet started any planning, or thinking about how to do it. They haven’t started networking yet, or developing an idea of how they will communicate to the “people” they will be doing business with. They don’t even know yet what type of woodworking they want to do.

Being a woodworker is a “strange” profession in this world now, and so People will naturally be interested and talked talk about you. What do you want them to tell each other about you and your work? What they talk about is really your “image.”

That is the “image” that I was trying to discuss here. For some that have emailed me, it is as if “hoping” will make it happen. Hoping hasn’t worked for me.

There is a long list of sacrifices and expenses that you will need to incur to make it in professional woodworking, and it will take many years to see your dream develop. The sooner you can figure out where you going, the faster you can get on that path, and avoid the numerous opportunities to take side roads and “Y’s”.

That was my thought on developing an “image”. I didn’t mean for it to come across that this meant anything about marketing a lie, or selling something you are not.

Sorry for the confusion,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

Thanks folks, I wasn’t so much meaning to find out what “my” image on lumberjocks was from you, but more what you perceive as your own image management. I appreciate the feed back though, seriously I do. But, I wasn’t really thinking of making this Forum a “talk about Mark” discussion. It is embarrasing you know.

Developing an image is not lying, it is a strategically planned methodology for being the type of business person you want to be. Woodworking businesses are too small to work on a lie, as we will be found out too easy. People deal with us as people, not a corporation.

I had a boss one time that used to say several times a week, “It’s not personal, it’s just business.” This was usually when he felt that he needed to make a decision that would hurt a person, but help the bottom line of the company. In my mind, there is no difference, people are who we do business with.

So, what I was really trying to develop here was the strategic thinking that I find most of us woodworkers don’t want to do. Namely, what type of woodworker do you “Want” to be.

This “image” will dictate everything from the type of tools you buy, the shop space you need, the location of your shop, the hours you need to dedicate to the craft, the training you need to buy, the projects you say “yes”, and “no” to, the shows you attend, whether you will have employees, and ultimately, where you will be in this business.

If you take whatever comes along, that people ask you for, you will end up somewhere different than you would have if you had taken the time to figure out what you wanted to build, and head that direction. I know this from experience. I ended up doing drywall and fences, for crying out loud.

What I am finding is that guys that email me who want to do something different with their careers, haven’t yet started any planning, or thinking about how to do it. They haven’t started networking yet, or developing an idea of how they will communicate to the “people” they will be doing business with. They don’t even know yet what type of woodworking they want to do.

Being a woodworker is a “strange” profession in this world now, and so People will naturally be interested and talked talk about you. What do you want them to tell each other about you and your work? What they talk about is really your “image.”

That is the “image” that I was trying to discuss here. For some that have emailed me, it is as if “hoping” will make it happen. Hoping hasn’t worked for me.

There is a long list of sacrifices and expenses that you will need to incur to make it in professional woodworking, and it will take many years to see your dream develop. The sooner you can figure out where you going, the faster you can get on that path, and avoid the numerous opportunities to take side roads and “Y’s”.

That was my thought on developing an “image”. I didn’t mean for it to come across that this meant anything about marketing a lie, or selling something you are not.

Sorry for the confusion,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

OK Mark, My image. When people here the name Roger Strautman I want people to think beauty and quality. Carving is a little different animal than woodworking. I promote myself by sharing what I do with pictures in places like here at LJ, going to carving shows, and a few business cards. I don’t go looking for work it usually comes to me by word of mouth. I’m not sure I want this to become full time work because I have a fear that my now hobby will become work and I will loose that passion for it. I also want to make my visions not just something that people think they want. I just want people to smile at the beauty that I produce. Thank Mark!

-- " All Things At First Appear Difficult"

Mark, I just found this and it is kinda late to weigh in on it but here goes. To me image is a developed thing which can include what you do and how you conduct yourself. Many years ago I worked very hard in the cowboy art movement. I met some very interesting and influencial people. Johnny Hampton, one of the founding members of the Cowboy Artists of America, told me one time while going over some of my paintings, ” The problem is that the cowboys call us artists and the artists call us cowboys!” Johnny was a character of vast proportions. He drank hard, played hard and laughed a lot. There may be some one who met him that didn’t like him but not many. We must remember that when we sell art we are also selling ourselves. The people who buy what we produce in all probabilty couldn’t make a brush stroke or glue two sticks together. They quite honestly may only have the ability to make a lot of money. ( I’ve occcasionally wished I could do that instead of this) Through us they are vicariously involved in the art world. This is how they indulge their creative urges. Many of them not only wish to have an object but also a relationship with the artist so that the artist becomes part of the conversation when they show off their lastest “Acquisition”.
So, we wind up with a two sided thing,this “Image”. One being our personna the other our”Opus” or works. Consider, if you will, how we perceive such people as Rembrant, Rodin, Frank Lloyd Wright or Gustave Stickley. Our perception is based not only on the work we’ve seen but also on the history we read about each of them.This combination creates an image in our mind’s eye of that person. If you are a fan of the Green Bros., you not only want to see their work but also want to know them and get inside their minds. In the end we cannot create our own image but we can influence it to a degree. Live as if every moment is being video taped for posterity.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

Worth bumping back to the fore, I think.

There are a couple of old trite-isms that come to mind.

First one is “To thine own self be true.” Related to this is a great old adage that if you don’t tell a lie (or in this case, live a lie), you won’t have to remember it.

Debbie’s words pretty much say the same thing, only shorter.

TA also makes a good point about image being something that comes over time. For some of us who for whatever reason became aware of the image thing early, it also becomes a goal. We know who we are, we have an idea of who and what we want to be, and we learn to walk in that and walk toward that. Sometimes the shoes are a little large, but if we’re careful and purposeful, we can grow into those shoes and become the man or woman, artist or craftsman, that we want to become or that we were intended to become.

Second one is that age old philosophy: K.I.S.S. When we get too caught up in the details of who we want to be or who we think we ought to be, it messes with out thinking processes and we end up being shallow and arrogant. Folks who care about how others perceive their image would never want to be seen as shallow or arrogant, IMO.

-- Dean, Missouri

thanks for bringing this forward Dean…

Mark, somehow I missed adding this to the eMag article on one’s “business”. Sorry about that.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Hey Woodminer. I am surely not trying to say that anyone needs to make something up about themselves. I apparently haven’t done a good job of communicating, as that is the way this thread keeps heading, hitting the proverbial “wall.” And, rightly so.

All I am trying to do is to get professionally-minded woodworkers to think through what is marketable about them, or their work.

I prefer to counsel the folks that ask for my advice that they market the “artist” over trying to sell the “art.”

Don’t make up something you are not, but understand “whom” you are, and strategize how to market it. Is it interesting enough that a newspaper reporter would write about you? Do you come from a background of “overcoming” that inspires people. Are you just so good at making whatever it is, that people want to see more of it?

I counsel to find out what it is that is marketable. In some of the folks that I get to meet, I can see things that I think is marketable and I tell them about it. Other times, I am left with a mystery, as I just don’t know the situation well enough to get an impression.

Marketing doesn’t have to be a bad word. It is just the well-thought out, planned activity, of trying to form an impression in the mind of people. I agree that the impression must be real, or the “artist” isn’t trust worthy. I counsel to figure out “what” it is that connects with people, and communicate that thing, or collection of things.

For instance, when you tell your story to folks, what do they find interesting and ask more questions about? The better of a story-teller a person is, the easier this is to do I feel, but it can be done either way. I read the two newspaper articles about myself, and was surprised to see what things about my story were interesting to reporters. Then, I simply started communicating those things.

For example, when I first started telling folks about the role my father played in laying the groundwork for woodworking in my life, they liked to hear about it. I soon learned that this was part of who I was, and that it was marketable, and so I communicated that item. I didn’t make anything up, just communicated the truth. Does that make sense?

I’m also very stubborn, rebellious, grumpy, and melancholy…...but I try to “not” to communicate those things, but they come out…..it is who I am. It is part of my “image” because it is who I am, still, I can try to limit people’s exposure to those character flaws, and not fear “losing myself” in the process. It just makes sense.

The reason I started this “idea” of an “Image” here in a forum, was to expose the concept and see how it “hits” with people. I’m flushing out ideas to use in my own work, and when I help others at their request.

Mainly, I have learned that “it” does not “hit”. I’ve been brainstorming about what word to substitute for “Image”, as it just seems to have a negative conotation with woodworkers. I feel the concept is still viable, just maybe with a different “Title” it will be easier to swallow.

I get a lot of questions emailed and in person, by people that want to do woodworking and make money at it. I ask a bunch of standard questions, and with a few exceptions, they don’t know much about what they want to make, who they are, or where they are going. Most are open to heading any direction, so I try to get them to look hard at their passions, and head that direction. The “passion” is the part of an artist’s “image” that is marketable in my mind. Others may have other opinions.

If a person is hobbying at woodworking, and just wants to sell something once in awhile, it probably doesn’t matter, just have fun is my advice, and when a customer shows up, consider it pure joy.

For instance, a big decision has to be made about whether a woodworker is going to make original items to sell, or build what people ask for. This is an important criteria for a business plan about woodworking.

I haven’t done a good job of selling things I just make and hope to sell, so I have come back to building mostly what people order. It was a financial decision for me, but an important one. If I want to do this work all of the time, then I have had to figure out how to make money at it.

The compromise for me is that I agree to do things I probably wouldn’t otherwise make, if I had the financial freedom to do otherwise. I still try to put a piece of me in those pieces, but it may be a style that I don’t really like. I’m still working on the business model, and it’s success, for sure but I feel that I am still young, despite the gray hair.

Being “true to yourself” is a great concept, but it doesn’t offer anything to bite into when talking with scared folks that want to quit jobs they hate and do woodworking. I’m trying to get people to strategize, fire a volley, and see what hits. Re-strategize, and try again. It is the basis for my “Diversified Methodology for An Art-Based Business Model” that I blogged about sometime back.

The questions I get aren’t ever from young adults who have their whole lives to try things, but rather they come from folks in their 30-50’s that want to change directions. Significant changes.

There is a lot at stake with them, a lot to sacrifice, and everyone worries about how soon those “retirement years” are approaching. I think the passion is probably strong enough, when those things don’t matter much any more. For the rest, I recommend keeping the day job, and reprioritizing their hobby time to give them more time in their shop. We all get involved in a lot of things that later we wonder “why”? So, reprioritizing is good in those cases.

So, if a person is talking about making a living, either all of it, or a large portion of it, then I feel there needs to be some planning done. Deciding what to make and how to make it is a decision that must be thought about, in terms of where a person is heading with their business plan.

An image is “who you are”. Figuring out what is marketable about each situation takes some thought and planning, and investment.

For instance, is it the product itself, or the artist, that is marketable?

Sometimes they go together, other times not.

I just went through an exhibit of a popular Kansas Artist, the Late-Lester Raymer. http://www.redbarnstudio.org/

He did sewing, embroidery, concrete, sculpture, woodworking, furniture restoration, gunsmithing, carving, painting, engraving, toy making, blacksmithing, sheet metal work, clay tile making, and I’m sure other things I haven’t seen yet. After viewing a small showing of his work this week, it wouldn’t matter to me “what” I got from his collection. I am enthralled with “him.” What I liked about “him” was his ability to weave his faith into all of his works, and his ability to absolutely master a wide variety of skills. I took some photos, and at some point, I will blog about the trip to see his work and show a few photos.

Whether I had a “Raymer” oil painting, a carved cross, a metal wall hanging, or a carved toy clown, it wouldn’t matter. His ability as an artist is what is collectible, and interesting to me. I only wish I would have had the chance to meet him before his death in 1991.

His ability to master so many different mediums, and find a collecting customer base for each one is a great model for what I am working through myself. His work was very inspirational for me this week.

I was talking to the lady that was hosting the museum this week, and she said that Mr. Raymer was, “known to be a little grumpy at times….” I enjoyed hearing that, although I made a mental note that I must work on my own “grumpiness” so that “it” is not what people remember about me someday. We can all have dreams can’t we?

Back to work, thanks for the input.
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

reminds me of one of the comments on the Lee Valley site re: customer service—“We treat the customer like a friend. We do everything for you that we would do for a friend, including, where necessary, telling you if you are being unreasonable. ” ... I respect that and it adds to the strength of the relationship…

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I think that an “Image” is partly what you are striving for as a person and partly what you already are.

A good way to start is to write down traits, characteristics and skills of other people that you admire – it’s always easier to see the admirable traits in others because we are usually most critical of ourselves.

After writing down this list, find an example of each trait in yourself and/or your work and write it down next to that trait/skill. I guarantee you that you can find it in yourself/your work ~ or it is something that you are developing.

If you need a bio or the dreaded marketing piece, you can take these items and weave them into your story.

-- life can always be weaved into a song.

This might continue to be off the target that Mark is aiming for with this thread, but here’s my input after reading through the entries a couple of times. For context, I’m one of the guys Mark described with: “The questions I get aren’t ever from young adults who have their whole lives to try things, but rather they come from folks in their 30-50’s that want to change directions. Significant changes. There is a lot at stake with them, a lot to sacrifice, and everyone worries about how soon those “retirement years” are approaching.”

Here are some things I have done and plan to do that relate to how I hear you using “image”:

- I established an online portfolio on LJocks. While I like the camaraderie and the chance to exchange information and ideas, what hooked me is the ability to easily display my projects here. After joining, I posted six projects. The earliest was finished in 1988, the latest this summer. I didn’t post everything I’ve ever built, just those that I felt would best let a potential client understand what I can do and want to do. I spent hours taking the best pictures I could, but my presentation still needs lots of work. Regardless, I now have a portfolio that I didn’t have last month, or last year, or any of those countless times over the last 25 years that I thought I could/should/would do this for a living. So, thanks Martin and the rest of you guys and gals who have put this together!

- Before I point a prospect to this site, if that ever happens, I’ll change my avatar. The one I selected means a lot to me – just finished roofing a room addition that I designed and built with the help of a buddy – but it doesn’t tell a client that he wants me building his entertainment center. On the other hand (and it’s about time this thread got back to being about Mark), what does Mark’s avatar tell a client? I see craftsman. The mallet and chisel tell me power and precision. The serious look is the flip side of the coin Mark labeled as “stubborn, rebellious, grumpy, and melancholy.” I see the artist, his tools, and his art, in action, all in one clip. This is the guy that I’m paying to build my furniture. My avatar says old, tired guy on a roof. I need to eventually find one that says craftsman.

- I mailed in my registration check for a week-long class with Lonnie Bird. For years, I’ve thought about taking classes like this “someday.” It looks like someday has arrived.

- I plan to join the Minnesota Woodworker Guild and start attending their meetings this month. And I have a goal to enter a piece in their annual Northern Woods show by 2009 (pdf).

One minor pick Mark. You said: If you take whatever comes along, that people ask you for, you will end up somewhere different than you would have if you had taken the time to figure out what you wanted to build, and head that direction. I know this from experience. I ended up doing drywall and fences, for crying out loud.

Point taken on doing drywall and fences, but we will still end up somewhere different than we thought, and I assume that whatever deviation I take off my anticipated course will be for the better. I agree with your overall point, just nudging your statement a bit.

-- Dave J. Oakdale, MN

So much information here to absorb. I am glad Mark started it, and everyone has kept it going. It is nice to see this keeps popping back up again. Even when you “decided” things once, you should re-evaluate them from time to time. What was once “known” may no longer be true, given the knowledge of today. Once the world was the center of the universe, then it was not. Once the world was flat, and then it was not. Once…so you get the meaning. We grow, we change, and so does the world around us.

Thank you all for your contributions. I am looking forward to learning more.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

I just finished a book, where the main characters philosophy is one of the best I’ve read.

Be available to your friends, ask nothing of anyone, and do no harm to others.

or perhaps even simpler…

Be the person your dog thinks you are.

I think the professional artists, artisans, craftsmen and woodworkers among us first need a body of work to define any style, some of us (me) haven’t made enough to define a personal syle – it that is even possible.

Advertising can be seen as evil – convincing people they need stuff they don’t. Marketing is often linked similarly though is neither good or evil. It is just trying to define your audience, finding where they are, and posistioning yourself to be seen by them.

I think, as an artist, I am at a huge disadvantage for working for myself. Who am I, what should I be doing, what defines me. We’re better off seeking this advice from trusted friends, colleagues, and other advisers. we can offer up 1500 different views of who Mark is (who Frank is, who Dusty is, and so on) and get 1500 differnt responses… any overlap may help to answer this question Mark posited.

I was talking to a spoonmaker at the Sunapee Craft Fair a few years back, told him I was (at the time) an aspiring woodworker (former painter, illustrator, graphic designer (etc…) still searching for my medium. He told me not to look, but to let it find me.

I wonder if we’ll be able to get a clear sense of who we are without the benefit of decades of hindsight?

My grandfather told me (when I was old enoughto understand this wasn’t a put-down) that he didn’t think I was an artist, (always drawing as a child, and an art minor in college) but rather that I was creative. This doesn’t change who I am, but certainly opens up my horizon for trying new medium.

wood, paint, paper and pencils, cooking, writing, mixed media, origami, clay, legos… the options are endless…

Who am I today, is not who I’ll be in ten years. I’m not who I was ten years ago. I’ve recenlty learned that hard and true facts about what foods I like isn’t even true anymore. I’ve hated certain foods and drink, love them now.

We change, we evolve, we grow.

Unless we’ve got a one track mind, and are on one fixed path (think Mozart, not B. Franklin) we can achieve brilliance in one, or several disciplines, and therefore, this question of who we are, as artists – and who we need to put our work in front of – bears revisiting every now and then.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Vincent Van Gogh

isn’t it exciting to rediscover yourself? To look back and see who you thought you were and realized that it was just a stepping stone towards who you are today—and who you will become tomorrow?

I love this journey of discovery. “It all turns out right in the end—if it isn’t right, it isn’t the end.” Love that quote (don’t know the originator)

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Well said Debbie and Scott.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

some one once said something like….....”good judgement is usaully a result coming from a whole lot of bad judgement”

I prefer letting my work do the talking, it’s easy to talk the walk but considerably more difficult to walk the talk.

Pricing can be simple…...........you can charge whatever you want, so long as the client cant walk a few blocks down the road and get the same thing for less.

“The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.”

“Knowledge is knowing that we cannot know.”..........both quotes from Emerson. In developing this so called image, talk less and listen more. To me real freedom to develop ones image begins when at some point in life we realize what little we know.

Always go the extra mile, dont sweat the small stuff and always give or at least look like you mean it….a sincere thank-you. look people straight in the eye when you meet them and when you say good by. A firm handshake is far better then a wimpy one but for sure…....dont break there hand bones. Showering/shaving and clean clothes seems to work too.

Best regards

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

great advice.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

one more thing

always, always leave the place cleaner then when you got there.I know tradesmen/women who are highly skilled but dont pick up there garbage….................and that leaves a bad taste in the clients head.

This includes the shop too albeit right now mine looks like a tornado went through it.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

A few more thoughts folks.

Don’t be afraid to spend money on your profession. Within reason, the less you spend the less you make.
I have seen hundreds of skilled men and women trapped into the belief that “they are worth” X dollars an hour where in reality they have neither the skill set nor tools to do the job cost effectively and within budget.

Sometimes that means sub contracting parts of a job until you have enough of them to support the additonal overhead.
To this end, buy books on your trade, attend conferences, visit every shop they will let you enter.
Be willing to change your tool sets if it will save you time and make you money.
If you have a mentor in you area, get over there and sweep his/her floors and steal with your eyes.

And.. always give the client a written estimate and state what it is you can do for them and what is not encluded.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I have been in the cabinet/custom woodworking business for 20 years.

For the last 12 years I have been out on my own building custom cabinetry and other custom projects.

The impression I want to give to my customers is someone who is passionate about their project, knowledgeable about different design styles,well groomed, and always on time for a meeting or a project deadline. I cant say enough how important it is to under promise and over deliver. Your customers are going to look at your handiwork long after you are gone so make sure they love it.

-- http://www.jgcw.biz

Just found LJ, just signed up. In order to familiarize myself with the site, I thought I’d start here. I will probably haunt this forum more than others. I will try not to tick anyone off. This particular thread is one of my pet peeves. So I figure if I’m going to start annoying people I might as well start early.

I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don’t say things maliciously. I know everyone has different experiences than me. I tend to state what I’ve experienced and pose no judgement on what others have experienced. It’s hard to read intonation or intention into something that has been typed. Consequently I read and type everything as an exchange of info.

Old proverb: One in two is a teacher.

Image is a strange thing. We (refering to the company I work for/with) deal with high-end customers. I can play the game but choose not to. If they (refering to the clients) are more worried about how I look or talk rather than the quality of our work, then I have no desire to produce anything for them.

The paraphrase that comes up is “but, if you don’t pitty pat them, you won’t get the job.” I say…fine. There will always be another job. We turn down more work than we take on. The boss is a smoozer. But pitty patting gets us into more trouble than we need.

Creating an “image” often requires, not a lie, but an enhancement of the truth. I see no reason why you can’t just tell the client the truth. Rich people seem to want to hear what they want to hear. It seems to be part of what they are paying for.

I’d rather tell them the truth about a delay or something before it occurs and suffer the immediate slings and arrows than to stretch the truth and make excuses about some delivery time to tick them off after we “still haven’t shown up”.

The famous “No credit application will be refused!!”......oh boy, I’m so stupid I think that means they’ll finance me no matter what. Marketing speak should be outlawed.

Many times clients have come up to me and said “while you’re at it, could you do me a favor and….”......and just as many times I’ve said [something to the effect of] “I don’t do favors, you’re paying me for whatever you want me to do.” I don’t do so in a nasty way. But, they remember that whatever else they have me do costs more and takes more time. So when the deadline appraoches and the bill comes there is no whining about how I promised to be done by a certain time, etc., etc. Particularly with the signed C/O’s attached.

(oh, and I don’t do things that are not my field. I have experience in most every aspect of building. I could do other things, but, the liability on large projects is too great. If I’m to install a coffered ceiling, frame and panels, and casework….I’m not going to rewire the outlets and move plumbing and hook up the stereo. The electrician isn’t going to install my casework….why should I re-arrange his wiring.)

I’m not saying you shouldn’t look presentable…..you shouldn’t start cussing right off the bat…..don’t spit, etc. Be honest in what you can and will do….and just as honest about what you can’t and won’t do.

I agree with underpromising/overdelivery…...honesty…..quality product….I think doing speaks louder than talking. I think that draws the client I want to work for better.

ok ok ok….last thought….....I don’t talk business at lunch or after hours, at my dinner time, on weekends (like sunday morning). Everyone else has hours, why can’t I. If I have a problem with my bank account on sunday morning, will there be anyone there to answer my call? doubtful. Just because you’re rich doesn’t mean I’m at your beckon call. I’m a business not a pet monkey in a sidecar.

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist

So, “I am what I am and that’s all that I am,” eh Popeye, er Catspaw? You sound a tad harsh and rigid. The way you describe your work attitude, I’m surprised that you still do it. Now I’ve never made a living at woodworking, but I have been self-employed in the past and while I found some issues trying I’ve never come near the contempt you seem to have developed.

I’ve read this topic with great interest and find a lot of insight in what’s been said. Mark, I’ve never found image to be easy. Your work is clearly top notch and your writings indicate a man of integrity, the trick is presenting these two truths so as not to appear arrogant. I don’t know if you’ve come upon a satisfactory presentation yet, but I know that if I’ve read a brochure written the same way you write here on LJ, I believe that I would clearly see what type of man and craftsman you are. I would suggest that you continue to present yourself the way you have, and your image will grow accordingly. That way, you don’t have to try and remember what image you were trying to present down the road.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

My 30+ year profession or career has been in the quaility control / assurance field. For me quality is conformance to established requirements, fitness for use and a happy customer. That said, in my woodworking and/or artwork I see great beauty in variation and imperfection … Knot in the wood, small blems, repairs, handmade corner breaks, a little out of square and my own variation in styles. I hope my work is unique from all others in that way. Quality for me in woodworking is an attitude. An inspired feeling.

-- ..... art for lifes sake

Great topic.
I’m gonna have to think a little on this subject. Got a Christmas party i gotta get to for now!

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

Hey Thanks Catspaw, Russel, and Dan. Dan, your photos say it all. A brochure with lots of photos and little text, and your phone number is all you need. I haven’t had time to look at the work of you other two, but I will, and look forward to getting to know you more as the days go by.

I appreciate your points, and glad you weighed in. For Catspaw and Russel, you may not have heard that I have been trying to update this forum topic, as I picked out one word that kept throwing people a curve. I went back this afternoon, and finally updated that word, to something that I hope doesn’t bring so many misconceptions about what I am proposing each professional woodworker do with their professional business.

Thanks for input, and I’m glad you found LJ,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

Everything we see or read today has been finetuned, polished and presented to achieve a specific reaction or outcome. Is it good for people to study which combinations of colors on a web site or box will make me feel comfortable,maybe even going so far as to influence me to trust on faith alone whats inside. Maybe it really makes no difference, I know our image, or rather how we are percieved is important, but when it is so easy to manipulate our “image” how do we know who we are and if we lose sight of this, how can we ever expect to represent ourselves honestly. In time our work will become a burden and our life a lie, with time our tools will rust and end up in a basket in some yard sale, which is good. Because on a saturday morning someone will see those rusty forgotten chisels, rolled up in a old leather pouch, and their heads will be filled with possibilities and dreams. So I think my image must begin with honesty, the good and the bad.

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

Thanks Harold. I think if I had written on a Telemarketer’s Forum, or a Late-Night Paid Programming Forum, I would have nothing but sweet praise and understanding and “here-here’s”.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. But, if you say you are honest, and the next guy does also, and he is not. Who’s to know? I’ll tell you, the customers.

But the “Presence” is more than honesty, and it is more than quality. If you are a rustic-style artist, then you want to demonstrate that Presence in marketing. You don’t put a Maloof-Rocker on your business card if you are a specialist in log benches. If you are a wood-turner, then it doesn’t do any good to use a clipart picture of a woodplane on your business cards. If you do, it is just confusing. If you have never carved a ball-and-claw foot, then putting someone else’s photo of one on your business card is just wrong. See what I mean? Customers want to see the proof. It is the proof they communicate to each other.

If you say you are honest on your business cards, then people don’t believe it. If you are a contemporary artist, then putting photos of a moose on your card, doesn’t fit. Make it all fit what you are. That’s what I’m trying to say. But, most importantly, put some thought into it.

Here’s how I learned one lesson the hard way: My first woodworking business in 1997 was called “Faith-Builders” because I was learning to trust God in a new way by being self-employed. The name made sense to me when I had someone make my business cards. But, then folks thought I was a house builder. I was declined a wholesale account at a woodworking supply place because they thought I was a house builder. See, it didn’t matter what the truth was, I had misrepresented, on accident, what my Presence was. And, people misunderstood what I was selling. I later decided in 2002 that I was going to be a wood-artist, not a cabinet maker, nor a remodeler, nor an installer, nor a trim carpeneter, nor a fence builder, nor a bunch of other things that people asked me to do. So, I developed around my business name, and website, marketing materials a Presence that was all Art-Based. But, the most important thing, was not to just say that thing on my card, BUT to stop doing the other work. So, now I don’t do fences, drywall, cabinets, etc. Make sense.

Woodworking is not a dishonest trade, nor done by dishonest folks. It is one of the things I like most about this website forum. Real folks, doing real work, talking to each other in a real fashion, each being encouraging, and friendly, and uplifting, improving the experience in the shop.

Thanks for your feedback,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

Harold: another story to drive my point home. On a woodworking forum I quit after finding Lumberjocks, had a question about using a jointer, and whether it was required. I responded based on my own experience of thinking I didn’t need one…....until a customer bought me one. My dad had been saying for years that I should be buying a big jointer…..but did I listen? No. BUT, after I had a jointer and saw what better joinery I could make with square and flat wood pieces, I stated that in my opinion on that other Forum. I was hit hard by a couple of folks about my opinion. We went back and forth, and they seemed to get more insulting each time. I have thick skin, but then I couldn’t take it any more. So, I said, “ok, show me photos of your work.” One of them never wrote back, the other sent me a photo of his model train set up. Enough said, I quit.

Then, I found lumberjocks. A place where we all START by posting what we do. I loved the concept, and worked a lot of hours trying to help Martin develop a content and PRESENCE that other woodworkers would come and share and join up. Wow, and it has been a great website, because it has a great programming format, and a whole wagon full of neat folks helping each other.

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

Glad to see I haven’t lost my touch.

It isn’t rigidity or contempt, Russel. It’s the way things work almost 99% of the time. Have you ever been able to “negotiate” with the utility company. Can you call the lady who works the front desk at home at 7:00 in the evening and chat about a problem. No. They do what they do. Charge what they charge. Do it when they schedule it. Same thing with banks, insurance co.s, the IRS, etc. etc.

Trades are outside of this, being a more one-on-one personal business. That’s where image does play a role. But, IMHO, that doesn’t mean that you can’t have professional standards that not only you should practice, but, that clients should respect as well. It’s a big grey area going from the handy man to a national corporation with hundreds of employees (handy man being extremely personal to the national home builder that is most likely like any other big corp.)

We had a client that was looking for a lower price. The boss lowered the price. The client went with someone else because we lowered the price. Long story short, he wanted slightly less of a house, not to see we could arbitrarily lower the price. It became a matter of trust and integrity. “We” didn’t maintain a professional poistion. But, “we” were afraid we wouldn’t get the job if we didn’t keep the client happy.

My background is in manufacturing, electronics, s/w quality engineering, and the trades. I do “still” do it because I’m good at it and much of our work is becoming “by specific request”. To give alittle perspective to the situation, my boss and I are polar opposites. Knowing how I am, I try to create a balance such that neither side gets too far out of whack. (sometimes he will jokingly come into the shop and say “well, I pulled a [catspaw] on them….told them we simply can’t start until we get the deposit.”) It used to be he would start a job without a deposit (buying materials and such) to “keep the clients happy”. Bad thing, BAD thing. He stopped doing that.

Some people take the attitude that the client is doing them a favor by buying from them. Well, maybe I’m doing them just as much a favor by doing something for them. Although favor is not the right word. We’re simply doing business together. We do something for each other. As a professional, I have schedules, operating costs, margins, etc. to maintain and cover. If I don’t maintain those standards then “professional” means nothing.

My perspective here is not from the art side where probably everything is subjective. I wouldn’t even know what to do except lower my prices until somebody bought something. not for this child.

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist

I like your style Catspaw. And, being a Kansas State Wildcat Alum, I like your tag name.

I see each customer as a Gift from God Himself. That sort of defines the rest of the relationship, and who I am really working for.

thanks for weighing in, I look forward to hearing more,
Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

Oh, another thing Catspaw that I should have added earlier. My previous career was all selling to Purchasing Agents and Engineers. In those days, the things that sold a job were delivery, price, and reputation, and if safety could be thrown in there it helped also. As good as those people seemed to be as friends in those days, not a single one of them has ever written, or contacted me about how I am doing today. I learned a lesson in that one.

It is a whole different ball game working with folks in their homes. The emotion is all different for them and me, and I am scrambling to figure it out. But, I sure enjoy it more. People remember me at Christmas time, send me gifts, ask for brochures they can pass around for me, pay my way to events, etc. I am learning a whole new side about People in Business. I actually like it this time.

I did a piece one time for a bronze sculptor in Texas, and after I shipped his piece, and he mailed me the check. He wrote me and said that it was traditional in art based businesses to receive at least half of the money upfront.

Oh, silly me. At that time, I was still operating in the business, purchasing manager, world of invoicing net 30 after delivery, and hoping to get the money in 90-120 days, and still get a check short the discount.

Ever since then, I have requested the 50% deposit, and many times get a check for the whole amount upfront. I have found people to be way more generous with me than I ever found in the corporate world. Another thing I really like about what I am doing now.

Mark

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flinthill's Artisan

This is the best discussion I have ever read on any site regardless of subject.
thank you

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

It has been my experience, that if you treat people like customers or commodities, then they treat you the same way. However, I have found that when you treat people like people the treat often beomes more personal and rewarding. Having developed custom software for the past 30 years, both corporately and independently, I found a corporate perspective creates distance and personally, I really don’t want any more distance in my life. In the last 5 to 10 years I have consciously moved from a corporate perspective to a personal perspective and as a result, found that I really like people. If I happen to come out on the short end sometimes, well, that’s life.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Absolutely, Russel. However the friend thing is a real fine line. Kinda like the old saying ‘never work for family or friends’. Sometimes you can get too close to [as a previous boss once called them] your people. I have had some (only a few) try to take advantage of that. I learned to be charming and endearing while maintaining that division between what’s personal and what’s business.

RE: working for friends and family…..I will let them pay for materials if it’s big but volunteer my services for family and stick to smaller favors for friends. I’ve had some almost heated discussions about getting paid. I’ve had to explain that I do what I do and if I say I don’t want to get paid then I don’t want to get paid and I don’t expect any favors down the road, either. I sometimes I think that may be a finer line to walk than any. Sometimes people don’t understand that, back in the day, people depended on their neighbors and if they needed help you helped them.

My boss needs to learn more about the fact that sometimes you come up short. Show me a business that doesn’t experience this. I worked with my brother for a