hand cutting dovetails

I am at the same level that you are and struggled with these for some time. When I purchased my Lie-Nielsen saw it made a marked improvement in my dovetails. I still have a way to go, especially with my chisel work but that will come with practice, practice, practice…...

-- With God's help all things are possible- even woodworking. Woodworking is not just a hobby, it is an (expletive deleted) expensive hobby.

I tend to like my traditional western saws, just because I have been using them for 20 years and know what they do.

I also own a couple of Japanese saws that excel at cutting dovetails. I will probably use them more for this purpose as I get used to cutting on the pull stroke.

I would suggest a medium quality dozuki to start. They are diverse enough, but also a good introduction to pull saws. Once you are used to the pull stroke, and have stopped kinking the blades, go out and buy a really good saw.

Good luck>

-- The only easy wood project is a fire

I too like japanese saws for this although with a little effort any decent saw will do lie mielson or dozuki.It’s the craftsman that makes the dovetails not really the saw.I have seen a lot of very beautiful work carried out with home made tools and what we would consider junk.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

As this is your first Japanese saw I would also suggest that you look at one with a replaceable blade.

Example: Woodcraft version

-- Chris

I’m a Western saw user, I also have a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. I haven’t used Japanese saws that much. I took a class on Handsawing this last summer. A couple people in the class used Japanese saws. They work well for them. My bench partner used a Japanese saw. The one thing I noticed, he seemed to have do 10 stokes for everyone of my. It was my understanding he had a standard Japanese dovetail saw. If you are interested in Western saws, I recommend you check out Christopher Schwarz blog. He has many reviews of different Western saws.

-- http://theinquisitivewoodworker.com/

I am constantly cutting dovetails…

I have used just about every saw (including Western finesaws, gentsaws, bowsaws,which are perfered by the old school types in germany, to Japanese saws with backs with out backs rip blades and crosscut blades) and Scotsman is right, namely that its lays more on the woodworker than the saw as far as the accuracy, BUT… haveing never a “Lie-Nielsen” saw in the hand I can not comment on them as far as what they can accomplish, but with the right Japanese style saw, I believe that one should be able to cut quicker and with a cleaner result in fact with a very sharp saw the cut result should look as it has been planed!

Ok Some people might say “it does not matter at all since they are dovetails and no one can see inside anyway.”

Well that all depends on the wood you are joining, for example on pine or something soft such as alder or something, it is probably irrelivent. But as soon as you start something like Maple or perhaps Pear (or other harder fruit fine pored woods) or even a tropical wood then the friction of trying to put together tightly fitted Dovetails that are roughly cut with a not so fine a saw, well… not so much fun, and the extra power you have to try to hammer or clamp the joint in dryfitting or with glue in the end makes you appreciate a very clean cut result.

I have yet to see a standard “120 degree cutting angle” fine saw, or gent saw (western joining saws) that can compete with the cleanness and swiftness of the Japanese saw, the saw teeth are simply better and the blades are thinner not to mention they have much less if not any tooth set, usually the blades them selves are thinner at the top or where the back is as compared to the edge with the teeth, so as to make less friction… Japanese saws come as well with not just the standard Crosscut teeth as most are familiar with in woodworking but also have saws with “ripping” teeth which are also triangular in shape and have also very very little if any tooth set (When I refer to tooth set I am meaning how much the teeth alternate and are bent so as the saw kerf is wider than the metal of the sawblade itself as to lessen friction/binding)

I think the only disadvantage of the Japanese saws is the fact that they are next to impossible to sharpen because it takes forever compared to a standard western saw because the teeth are smaller more fragile not to mention have 3 sharpened edges compared to 2 on the western style saw. It can be done, I personally do not have the time or patience, plus if one flips the old blades around they make great scrapers!

Usually Japanese saws use a much harder steel, generally hardened steel, which makes them more fragile. Western saws I think can take more abuse. I try to treat my tool nicely, especially the sharpened ones so, I guess its a personal thing.

Personally I perfer teh Japanese saws, I think once you get used to them, and understand how to cut with them then they are the better saw as far as quality goes. There is a Company called Dick and they are selling a ton of different tools and also deliver to america… they have a pretty good web site and cary both standard Western tools as well as Eastern style Chisels and Saws, plus Hybrids of both, I would recommend getting a catalog and looking at that, and you can compare for yourself, they have great customer service and I think the prices are not too out of site. http://www.dick.biz/dick/page/homepage/detail.jsf

hope this helps!

-- Nicholas, Partenkirchen, Germany

I’m happy to see that this hasn’t turned into a major East vs. West saw war. :) Everyone’s just stating their own preferences, and that’s great.

As for me, I started out with a basic (but well-sharpened) Western saw. But I had a lot of trouble starting the cuts. I think starting a cut is something you just have to develop a knack for. Let the saw do the work and move the arm confidently and it will start. But still, sometimes my saw would jam in the kerf (or start of the kerf) and I was a bit frustrated.

I bought a replaceable-blade ryoba saw (which has cross-cut on one side and rip on the other) and immediately fell in love with Japanese saws. You don’t have to develop a knack for starting a cut. You just pull back (which is more natural for me than pushing to start a cut) and the blade does the rest. As for the speed of the cut, I suppose it depends on how aggressive you are. I could probably cut my dovetails faster if I applied more pressure to the saw, but I so much enjoy using my saw and seeing it work that I’m never in a rush! Sounds funny but it’s true. I enjoy sawing.

I have since bought a dozuki, which is preferred if you’re doing dovetails as it has a reinforced back (the ryoba is totally unreinforced, which allows you to cut deeper – and also allows for a finer kerf (thinner blade). I like it better for dovetails, but the ryoba is great for crosscuts or for ripping longer pieces.

Biggest advantages for me with the Japanese saws:

• easier to start a cut
• more natural to cut on the pull stroke
• finer kerf because of the thinner blade (Western saws have to be thicker to resist bending when you push)
• much cheaper than the Western equivalent

Biggest disadvantages for me with the Japanese saws:

• harder to see the line since you’re moving backwards (I just blow the sawdust off more frequently)
• can’t sharpen it (some would see this as an advantage, esp. those who hate sharpening!) so you just replace the saw or blade

-- Eric at http://adventuresinwoodworking.com

i like western saws and there are a few key advantages that i think make them better.

1. you can sharpen them, thats always a good thing

2. the stroke. with a western the teeth cut it pushes the wood fibers on your marked surface in leaving that surface good and you get the fuzzies on the back. but in eastern style saws since the teeth pull. you get the fuzzies on your side that you have your lines marked on and are looking at so it makes them harder to see

3. stiffer and heavier. since they are stiffer they give a straighter cut with less chatter

4. handle. this is me personally but i like the pistol grip handles because they are much easier to angle for the pins unlike the spindle handles on western saws. i also find them easier to work.

I have to follow up on Denis’s post. I hope this doesn’t come across as too “combative” but I think Denis has it wrong on a couple points. (Denis is one of my online buds so I know he won’t take this the wrong way.)

I find that my Japanese saws cut so cleanly that the “fuzzies” are microscopic or non-existent! Check out this comparison shot featuring cuts I made with three different saws (read my entire review here) – the middle piece was cut with my Crown saw and the one on the right with my ryoba:

Denis says that Western saws cut with less chatter (because of the thicker blade), but this doesn’t make sense to me – the chatter comes when the blade wants to bend as you’re pushing it across the wood. When you’re pulling a Japanese saw, the blade is taut and there is zero chatter. Zero! Perhaps Denis is saying that on the push stroke (when it is not really cutting), the blade could potentially bend or chatter. But this does not affect the straightness of the cut.

Denis’s comment about the handle is a great one. I do love pistol grip handles, and the Japanese saw handles do make it harder to hold the saw at a fixed angle. I hadn’t thought of that comment but he’s right. One thing I didn’t mention though, now that we’re talking about handles, is that some ryobas allow you to adjust the angle (not tilt) of the blade by 10 or 15 degrees, which is sometimes quite helpful.

-- Eric at http://adventuresinwoodworking.com