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Forum topic by jasonburr posted 143 days ago 725 views 0 times favorited 15 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jasonburr

25 posts in 195 days


143 days ago

Hey guys. I am fairly new new hand tools and am in a quandary.

I have a vintage #5 that I wanted to really tune up. I have been trying to learn sharpening with waterstones with decent results. I have yet to hit that “Oh, that is what sharp is” stage. I wanted to take the next step and purchased David Charlesworth’s sharpening DVD. I had been using a 1000 and 8000 Shapton and a coarse DMT to flatten them. To establish my bevel I had been using sandpaper on granite. This was taking forever, so I took the plunge and purchased a grinder so that I could hollow grind to establish the bevel.

After grinding, polishing to 1000 and microbevel at 8000 and utilizing the ruler trick, I get nothing. No shavings. It is like I am running a screwdriver over the surface. Here are the steps that I have taken to troubleshoot.

Tried the same board with my #4 – Fine
Made sure that the iron was bevel down
Made sure the chipbreaker was not over the edge of the iron – it was about 1/32 – 1/16 back.
Tried the iron and chipbreaker in the #4 – no cut
Tried the #4 set in the #5 and got shavings

WTF? Where do I go from here? Start over with sharpening?

I was super careful when grinding. It never got close to being too hot. The hollow grind is at 25 degrees, the 1000 was at 33 and the 8000 was at 35. All of those are Charlesworth’s numbers.

Help!


15 replies so far

View TerryDowning's profile

TerryDowning

998 posts in 716 days


#1 posted 143 days ago

were you raising a burr??

No burr it isn’t sharp period.

I recommend The Perfect Edge by Ron Hock.

Best, most practical and common sense book about sharpening edged tools.

-- - Terry

View Don W's profile

Don W

14635 posts in 1166 days


#2 posted 143 days ago

simplify.
Hollow grind to 25 degrees
Go to the 8000 grit and set the iron on it, press the front of the iron with your pointer fingers. Rock it back and forth to “feel” the flat. Slide it forward. A few strokes is all you need. The first few times will feel awkward, but you’ll gain the memory.

You should be able to see the narrow sharpened point.

Pull the burr by running the back of the iron flat on a strop.

Then do 2 or 3 (max) strokes on the 8k stone again.

Done and sharp.

Edit: I should have mentioned the back needs to be flat and polished for at least an 1/8”!!

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 968 days


#3 posted 143 days ago

I also got started with Charlesworth’s DVD; I like his DVD and still use his method.

Did you flatten the back as he describes? If the back isn’t flat you won’t get those two polished edges meeting. A good way to tell is if you get a nice continuous highly polished line after the ruler trick; if not, the back isn’t flat all the way across.

As Terry mentions, are you raising a burr with each grit? The bur indicates you’ve gotten all the way out to the edge. If you don’t have the burr you’re not there yet. It’s possible you are just working the bevel.

I’d suggest practicing a straight profile first, before trying a cambered edge; it’s a bit simpler.

When you say you are not getting shavings, I assume the iron is engaging the work and just jamming or chattering instead of cutting? If not, is it possible the iron is sharp but not set in the plane properly?

-- John

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

558 posts in 493 days


#4 posted 142 days ago

Great advice here. I’m also fan of Charlesworth and if you use his methods make sure you follow exactly what he does. Double/triple/quadruple check those angels when you’re starting out – especially if you’re on a new method you’ve never tried before with the grinder. If you do what he does, I promise you cannot screw up. Trust me, I am an idiot but can do it.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14589 posts in 2274 days


#5 posted 141 days ago

Are Charlesworth’s methods significantly different than most of the other gurus?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View JayT's profile

JayT

2089 posts in 810 days


#6 posted 141 days ago

There are many methods/techniques of sharpening that work, but they all end up with a similar end product regardless of how it was achieved.

My 2 cents worth is to see about getting a truly sharp iron from someone else so that you can experience it and will have a goal to shoot for. I know that was an “Aha” moment for me—getting a plane from Dan, who is a superior sharpener. Since then my own sharpening improved dramatically. If you want to pursue that, there are a bunch of LJ’s who would be glad to help. Might even be one in your area, if we knew where that was.

-- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

558 posts in 493 days


#7 posted 141 days ago

Topamax – Charlesworth is credited often for the “ruler trick”, I don’t know if he invented that but everyone seems to defer to him (except Cosman, I think he’s trying to pass that on as his own. Maybe he came up with it but I doubt it because others always talk about Charlesworth.)

Charlesworth is probably the most meticulous explainer on planet earth of what he does and why, and that’s why I like him because you understand every little detail – and he will explain every little detail. All his videos are good, highly recommend them. I don’t use the stones or honing guide he uses but his videos came out a while ago, maybe he’s changed, who knows. But I use his principles.

However, I’ve watched videos from Hendrik Varju, Cosman, Schwartz, Sellers, Brian Burns and read Hock’s book, read lots of people on this site – and although they don’t use the same instruments to get their results, no one is doing anything radically different from anyone else. Whether you use sandpaper or oil stones or a honing guide or freehand or a grinder, etc., there’s only one way to get a blade angled at, say, 25 degrees and that’s to hold it at 25 degrees. How you hold it there and what you scrape it against is up to you.

Like JayT said, if you pay attention to all these people you might pick up something from one guy you didn’t understand or notice from another.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14589 posts in 2274 days


#8 posted 141 days ago

Thanks ColonelTravis, Sounds like Charlesworth’s DVD might show a few details that could take one over the top to a “Ah ha” moment?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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ColonelTravis

558 posts in 493 days


#9 posted 141 days ago

Here's some samples from (I think) all of Charlesworth's DVDs so you can get an idea of his style. If you’re real impatient he’s not your guy because he takes his sweet time with stuff, but he’s real thorough.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14589 posts in 2274 days


#10 posted 141 days ago

Thanks, I’ll take a look. Sometimes being thorough and knowing the whys will make it all come together.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

60 posts in 397 days


#11 posted 141 days ago

Maybe the sole of the vintage plane isn’t flat,Or maybe a hump behind the mouth?
I am in Califonia if you would like I can help you get it sorted out but you will have to bring the tool here,I also use shapton stones

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6663 posts in 1282 days


#12 posted 141 days ago

Re-install the iron back in the plane

Turn both you and the plane into the light

sight down the length of the sole

adjust the iron until just a hint of a line from the iron shows

Try the plane on some scrap wood. adjust again as needed.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14589 posts in 2274 days


#13 posted 140 days ago

ColonelTravis, Do you know if the DVDs are as hard to hear as the samples? The echo in that building, the heavy accent and hearing aids are a bad combination ;-(

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View ColonelTravis's profile

ColonelTravis

558 posts in 493 days


#14 posted 140 days ago

Oof – sorry about that, TS. The echo of the building isn’t always there because he’ll switch to a different location, but that’s how they sound for real. If I don’t look at him he kind of sounds like James Bond – Roger Moore version.

Christopher Schwarz seems to carry the Charlesworth flame but he’s not as thorough in DVDs. One guy who tops Charlesworth as far as dumping information on you is Hendrik Varju. He’s got 2 DVD sets on planes. One set is 10 hours long, the other is almost 9 hours. They aren’t cheap but you’re basically getting a personal instructor. It’s like taking a class. Great stuff.
http://passionforwood.com/woodworking/dvds.htm

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TopamaxSurvivor

14589 posts in 2274 days


#15 posted 139 days ago

Thanks for the info.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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