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Which Glue?

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Forum topic by Dallas posted 01-14-2014 06:14 PM 651 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Dallas

2906 posts in 1141 days


01-14-2014 06:14 PM

Lately I have been doing a lot of guitar repairs. Broken and cracked headstocks, scarf joints, necks, etc.
I also have some Autoharps I need to get back into shape.

I started out using Titebond III, which didn’t seem to have a long enough working time, then I used Titebond II on another repair and it just felt rubbery after curing, I’m not sure how to describe it, but it was completely wrong for the repair I was trying to make.

The last repair I made was using Gorilla Wood Glue which worked better than the TB II (Equivalent), and it is plenty strong and holds tighter, doesn’t seem as flexible….. BUT after 3 days of drying and during final sanding it kept expanding out of the repaired break, looking something like rubber cement that you rub and ball up between your thumb and fore finger.
I dug as much out as I could with a dental pick and filled the crack with Super Glue Gel and sanding dust.
This worked, but there has got to be a better way.

I have been looking at real hide glue, so far something like 192 cut or even 256, I’m not sure.

I need help on deciding which I should get and what brands are good.

I looked on eBay and a lot of this stuff comes from the west side of the “Ring of Fire” and I’m not too keen on that idea.

One of the brands I have narrowed it down to is this: CLICK HERE YOU BIG OL' LUMBER JOCK!

Will this stuff dry harder with less problem when sanding?

HELP!

-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!


14 replies so far

View JustJoe's profile

JustJoe

1554 posts in 693 days


#1 posted 01-14-2014 06:20 PM

This is the hide glue I’ve used in the past. (Not for a guitar repair though).

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HIDEGL.XX/Hide_Glue

I used the 192. If you’re fixing necks maybe you could try the 315.

-- This Ad Space For Sale! Your Ad Here! Reach a targeted audience! Affordable Rates, easy financing! Contact an ad represenative today at JustJoe's Advertising Consortium.

View lumberjoe's profile

lumberjoe

2833 posts in 903 days


#2 posted 01-14-2014 06:20 PM

For joints that you just can’t get clamps on, I love hot hide glue. Actually I use it for almost everything anyway (except cutting boards). 192g is what I use. It really is amazing stuff and I can’t believe more people don’t use it. With tight fitting joints you really don’t need clamps at all. If you don’t believe me, make a couple rub joints, don’t clamp them, and try to break them apart the next day.

Also the cold water cleanup is awesome, and unlike PVA glues it has no effect on finishes. In fact some even use heavily diluted HHG to pore fill.

-- www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

View Loren's profile

Loren

7556 posts in 2302 days


#3 posted 01-14-2014 06:26 PM

Hide glue doesn’t seem very effective at filling gaps to me. It
has some interesting and useful characteristics otherwise. If
you can get your joints accurate, hide glue might be
a good choice.

I like fish glue for fussy little repairs. It grabs real quick.

My general shop glue is Titebond 2 Extend… I do not think
it is the same as Titebond 2 since it is rated for hot press
and radio frequency gluing, which is why I use it. It seems
to cure reasonably brittle. On the hot edgebanding press
I haven’t seen it creep after curing. I don’t think the
heat does anything but speed the curing but it is
possible it makes the glue cure harder.

-- http://lawoodworking.com

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

4966 posts in 1452 days


#4 posted 01-14-2014 11:51 PM

I use Milligan and Higgins 192gram almost every day. It is excellent stuff. For instruments in high stress areas you may want to go for a little higher gram strength but 192 is equivalent most “modern” wood glues. The higher the gram strength however, the shorter the working time.
If you are new to hot hide glue check this blog.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fiberglass trees. http://prmdesigns.com/

View Texcaster's profile

Texcaster

669 posts in 328 days


#5 posted 01-15-2014 01:07 AM

I get my HHG from LMI, #192 gram. Avoid the pre- mixed stuff, it is rubbish.

-- Bill....... I listen very closely to the timber and then impose my will.

View Dallas's profile (online now)

Dallas

2906 posts in 1141 days


#6 posted 01-15-2014 02:51 AM

Thanks all. I really want to try this stuff because I am tired of the problems with regular PVA glue.

Loren:
How does fish glue work and does it become solid or does it stay flexible? that’s the problem I am having with the PVA’s, they stay a bit flexible and rubbery which I can’t have when trying to re-attach a neck.

-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!

View Texcaster's profile

Texcaster

669 posts in 328 days


#7 posted 01-15-2014 03:43 AM

I have not tried fish glue and I think I’ll wait a bit after reading this.

http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5927

-- Bill....... I listen very closely to the timber and then impose my will.

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

4966 posts in 1452 days


#8 posted 01-15-2014 03:56 AM

Fish glue has a little more give than hide glue. It was used to glue non wood items like shell that have different expansion characteristics from wood. The drawback is that it is not water resistant. Hide glue requires heat and moisture to reverse it. Fish glue only moisture. This can be used to advantage when you want to be able to disassemble something easily.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fiberglass trees. http://prmdesigns.com/

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

796 posts in 971 days


#9 posted 01-15-2014 06:29 AM

If the joints are not tight and you’re dealing with gaps I’m curious why you’ve not used epoxy yet? It definitely gives plenty of open time and it’s about the only glue I’ll trust for joints that aren’t tight. I’ve actually used epoxy to repair a broken guitar neck and it worked out fine.

Regarding Gorilla glue, since it cures by moisture, it may be possible to speed up the cure by spritzing one side of the joint with a little water before clamping.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

View Dallas's profile (online now)

Dallas

2906 posts in 1141 days


#10 posted 01-15-2014 11:02 AM

Thanks Bill and PAul, I think I’ll wait on the fish glue also.

JAAube, Gorilla Wood Glue is not the same as Gorilla Glue. It doesn’t cure with moisture.

It is a PVA, (Polyvinyl Acetate) like Tite Bond wood glue.

There are no real gaps in the joints, it is just the wood glue that has cured that excretes fron the tight joint like a little fine line of rubber. When doing a shiny gloss finish like lacquer, any blemish will show up.

Epoxy, as far as I know isn’t recommended for musical instruments. It changes the resonace qualities of the wood, although I probably couldn’t hear the change.

-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!

View Ted78's profile

Ted78

158 posts in 654 days


#11 posted 01-15-2014 11:21 AM

From what I’ve read hide glue will not fill gaps, though as you state I can’t imagine your filling gaps wit glue in guitar joints. I’ve been playing with Knox gelatin just because it was quick easy and cheap for me to get (as in dig into the back of the cupboard) Seems to work reasonably well. Seems to have a fairly long open time, I expect (but don’t really know) it has a fairly low gram strength and is probably more akin to a bone glue than superior? hide glue, but might be something to try.

-- Ted

View JAAune's profile

JAAune

796 posts in 971 days


#12 posted 01-15-2014 06:03 PM

I hadn’t realized you were referring to Gorilla PVA glue since I skimmed right over that part of the OP. Sorry.

You’re probably right regarding epoxy and musical instruments. I’m sure it would be problematic if used on the body of an instrument but I’m not sure it would cause any issues when used on the necks. The repair I did was on an electric guitar anyway so acoustics weren’t that big of an issue.

Check into veneering PVA glues. I’ve used Unibond 1 from Vacuum Pressing Systems and it’s much harder than most PVA glues. It’s about the same price as Titebond III.

Hide glues are the standard in the luthier trade though. It would definitely be worth getting accustomed to using those types of glue.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

View Dallas's profile (online now)

Dallas

2906 posts in 1141 days


#13 posted 01-15-2014 10:35 PM

Thanks Ted, I had thought about that, I’m just not sure gelatin could handle the stress of constantly holding a neck under the strain of the strings.
I also thought about sticking a bunch of rawhide chew toys in a pot of boiling water for a half a day and seeing how they worked for glue.

JAAune, I don’t have that much experience with guitar repairs. I was told by a friend who is a luthier that any changes in density makes a difference in tonality, whether it’s in the body or the neck or whether it’s a solid body electric or a arch top F hole.

As I gain experience maybe I can learn more and not need to ask so many questions.

-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!

View Craftsman on the lake's profile

Craftsman on the lake

2386 posts in 2092 days


#14 posted 01-15-2014 10:43 PM

Modern guitars are held together with yellow glue like titebond. The fretboard is glued on with white glue like elmers as it can be removed with heat. A nasty trick is when I come across a fretboard repaired and glued on with yellow glue….. You have to almost chisel it off.

Hide glue is only used for the violin family of instruments as technically, professional ones are supposed to be disassembled each year and reglued. Hide glue allows for this without damaging the wood.

-- The smell of wood, coffee in the cup, the wife let's me do my thing, the lake is peaceful.

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