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Forum topic by Woodtechie posted 12-09-2013 02:37 PM 1295 views 0 times favorited 42 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Woodtechie

48 posts in 382 days


12-09-2013 02:37 PM

Topic tags/keywords: dust collection

Hello,
I’m getting a Grizzly jointer soon, and I know that means lots of dust, so I need some real dust collection.
While I’m at it I might as well hook up the other stuff too, so I’m trying to figure out a good plan.

My plan is to get a 1 1/2 HP Cyclone (G0703 from Grizzly), but I’m not sure if this is overkill or what. The few hundred extra over a cheaper non-cyclone isn’t a big deal. I’d like to connect the table saw, band saw, and sander as well (that’s 4 4” connections total, and I think a 2 1/2” for the sander). Tubes would all be along the wall other than the table saw, which would be a 4” tube dropped from the ceiling (unless I end up doing a total rearrangement). Plan to use plastic blast gates to shut off tubes not being used, and 4” Woodstock clear hose also sold by Grizzly.

Assuming this link works, here’s my first attempt at trying to redesign my layout (or what it will be, once the jointer and collector get there):

Any suggestions or feedback welcome.


42 replies so far

View pmayer's profile

pmayer

609 posts in 1816 days


#1 posted 12-09-2013 08:10 PM

I don’t think the jointer will cause you a lot of problem. I find them to be one of the easier tools to collect. Light fluffy debris, fairly well contained in the dust chute, and the volume is manageable.

More CFM is better. I’d go a bit bigger if you can swing it. Cyclone is great, but I’d favor better CFM with a pre-separator over cyclone if you need to make that trade-off. Minimize the use of flex hose. Don’t run that entire system using flex or you will kill your CFM.

For the sander I’d go 4” up to the unit and reduce to 2.5” right at the tool. That sander makes a LOT of dust, and that dang 2.5” port is a problem but reducing right at the tool helps a lot. I wish they would open that up and add a 4” port. I’d actually buy a new one if they did that.

Your table saw is a good one from a dust collection perspective (as well as most other perspectives). Table saws are normally one of the more challenging tools to collect from, but SS provides a dust all the way to the blade, and the blade has a tight shroud around it. Even with marginal CFM this design does quite well to capture dust.

I think your bigger challenge will be the miter saw. Those things are notoriously painful to collect from.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

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brtech

714 posts in 1674 days


#2 posted 12-09-2013 09:29 PM

Not clear what the size here is, but based on the scale of the tools, I’d say it would be hard to keep up enough CFM to clear fine dust with 1.5HP. You may be better with 20’ flex and move the hose to each tool if you have to stay that low. Usually, they say a cyclone needs 3-5HP. A Thein filter, on the other hand, does a decent job on a lot less. As long as your filter is .5 micron or better, I’d think about a Thein if you need to keep the cost down. Of course in that power range the HF “2HP” (it isn’t) with a Wynn filter is a very good purchase.

If you were hard plumbing it, I’d come up from the DC and use a triple Wye above it, one branch down each wall and one diagonal to the TS. You need to decide how you want to get the pipe down to the TS. You need to make sure the pipe doesn’t block any cuts. Think about sheet goods. Sometimes, it’s best to come down at floor level and accross from a wall, but that means you need to build a ramp to cover the pipe.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6968 posts in 1665 days


#3 posted 12-09-2013 10:01 PM

brtech +10

I’ve added a Wynn nano filter and a Thien “lid” separator to my HF DC and stretch a flex hose to each tool as needed. All but one can be reached with a single 10ft section and the planer needs two sections. To me the inconvenience factor is minimal. Just locate the DC in a somewhat central location. Mine is central but still against a wall so my TS has the space to do all cuts, including 4×8 sheet goods.

Suggest putting the BS on locking rollers. Works great that ways.

Good luck! It is always a fun time during the planning stages. Best of times… 8^)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Woodtechie

48 posts in 382 days


#4 posted 12-10-2013 06:11 AM

A higher CFM (non-Cyclone) is actually cheaper. I’ve read the marketing stuff but I’m still a little uncertain about what a cyclone gets you vs a regular DC with higher HP. What’s the real trade off?
This is the model I'm looking at.

The G0440 page says “Machine Collection Capacity At One Time” = 3 Machines. I’m not cloning myself anytime soon—wouldn’t these cheapo plastic blast gates (closing off all other ports) help enough? (Bandsaw has two 4” ports…)

Shop dimensions are about 22’x22’. If a Cyclone needs 3+ HP, is Grizzly screwing up selling underpowered models?

Yeah, that miter saw… honestly I wasn’t even going to bother trying to do anything additional with that. I do plan to build a router table, but again—blast gate technique?

One thing I could do is move that DC to the center of the wall, or move the TS over. I feel like I’d be wasting easily accessible wall space by putting the DC in the middle. Need to think about TS against the wall. I’d probably have to break down that oversized workbench into two smaller ones if I did that (so I can have an outfeed table), since I like to have access to more than two sides.

Most everything is mobile here, so I can reconfigure if I need to. Nothing is really set in stone (well the back workbench kind of is, but I’ve been thinking of tearing that thing down anyway).

Yeah, the more I read about this topic makes me think I should have been more concerned about this earlier on. This guy makes a decent case for a more expensive model but $1700 is more than I want to spend. Decisions decisions…

What’s a Thein/Wynn filter? I’m not stuck on Grizzly, or Cyclones – should I be looking elsewhere? I figured Cyclones were a newer/better tech, but maybe not.

My preferred budget is 800 or less, but I might go to 1000 if needed.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

2045 posts in 1244 days


#5 posted 12-10-2013 12:56 PM

The unit you picked is hardly overkill, more would be better. Someone else mentioned it, the joinmter is one of the easier tools to manage, and doesn’t reallt produce that much dust. The BS, OTOH, can be a real boooger to deal with. Good luck with your set up!

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View reedwood's profile (online now)

reedwood

891 posts in 1427 days


#6 posted 12-10-2013 01:34 PM

”One thing I could do is move that DC to the center of the wall”

how about the center of the room? That’s what I did. This avoided the toe grabbing 4” flex hose across the floor.

I built my 3.5×8 ft. work bench at the same height as the TS with the 50” side table and butted them together. then I put the DC at the end of the bench which is less than 8 ft. from the Jointer, planer and TS.

I also installed a 2” system with 4 gates above. One to the miter box/ RAS, one to the sanding station, and two that I can open to clear dust above sanding work area. Not as good as 4” but it does work.

I have the Jet 2 hp. with filter cartridge and have been pretty happy so far. It takes awhile to fill that bag.

But, If I’m making a ton of shavings on the router table or planer, sometimes I’ll hook up the shop vac so I don’t have to replace the huge bag as soon. Those clear bags ain’t cheap! a shop vac is easier to empty in the trash bin too. I guess that’s the same idea behind a cyclone.

If that is a garage, I would consider reversing the TS so you face the garage door. The HTC rolling stands work great for the jointer and TS. If you plan on making that much dust you’re gonna need more work bench area too.

this drawing is pretty cool. I hope you end up with a great shop!

Merry Christmas!

-- Mark - I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6968 posts in 1665 days


#7 posted 12-10-2013 02:46 PM

Phil Thien Separator

Wynn Filters

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View brtech's profile

brtech

714 posts in 1674 days


#8 posted 12-10-2013 04:20 PM

Here’s the thing: What you want out of a DC is COLLECT THE DUST. What all these gizmos do is try to get as much of the junk out of the air as they can before it goes to the filter. The filter does the rest.

If you have no baffle and no cyclone, then the ramp in the ring does the separation. It’s not too good at that, so lots of dust goes into the filter, which only means one thing – you have to clean the filter more often.

A cyclone and the Thien baffle do a better job at separation – less dust goes into the filter. The difference is efficiency – how much of your original CFM goes into powering the separator, and how much is left over to, you know, suck!

A well designed Cyclone gets more separation at higher efficiency than the baffle. But the key is “well designed”. The Pence designed cyclone with a 5 HP motor and suitable impeller, is generally considered to be well designed. The larger PSI and Oneida ones also are, although Bill seems to still have some beef with some aspect of at least one of them.

For those of us with less than 5 HP, it’s not all that clear you can get to “well designed”. The Thien baffle seems to work nearly as well as the smaller cyclones, at a fraction of the cost. So, put your money into as many CFM as you can get, and then put the baffle in it (either outboard or in the ring).

Yes, you want blast gates on all machines, and only have one open at a time. The cheapo plastic ones work, but they clog up. Look here on LJ for some home made ones that seem to work fine.

Placement is tricky. Clearly you want to minimize run length. ISTM that putting it where you show it is about as good as you could get, and moving it to the middle wouldn’t change the length a whole lot. BUT consider that you want no 90 degree bends (no Ts), only wide sweeps, wyes or 45 degree angles with at least a foot or so of straight pipe before another bend. That may change your mind about where you put it.

View Woodtechie's profile

Woodtechie

48 posts in 382 days


#9 posted 12-10-2013 06:01 PM

Yeah this is a slightly oversized 2C garage. DC in the center would put me near the garage door opener (which the TS hose is dangerously close to in the first place). Jet 2HP looks to be about 1200 CFM vs the one I’m looking at which is 775 CFM.

I’d have to check my ceiling height first, but what if I upgrade to this expensive 2HP bastage? (Which happens to be on sale for Christmas!) That gets me to 1354 CFM.

I’m still leaning to a Cyclone since I’m a lazy cleaner (esp with dust cleanup) and I figure that should help keep the filter clear.

The way Grizzly is describing these in their videos they’re claiming that the smalller 775 CFM is fine for a small shop (one machine) and this larger one is a mid size shop, which sounds like overkill to me.

@reedwood – why would you reverse the TS to face the door? (If it’s for windows, my door doesn’t have any – on purpose for security.) Interestingly enough I have been thinking of turning it 90 degrees so that if I ever get a bad kickback it’ll hit the wood and shelf junk behind (and hopefully not me). A 180 degree turn puts an expensive Excalibur scrollsaw in the firing line. :/

View Woodtechie's profile

Woodtechie

48 posts in 382 days


#10 posted 12-10-2013 06:19 PM

@brtech – Yeah 5HP, not going to happen in my small shop (plus, I want to keep my hearing). I think I’m just having a hard time believing that Grizzly would sell a Cyclone which, judging by the feedback here, is a piece of junk.

DC mid-wall sounds like a good way to avoid a few turns, I’ll have to play around with that setup next.

View JonHitThingWithRock's profile

JonHitThingWithRock

96 posts in 473 days


#11 posted 12-10-2013 06:21 PM

I’ve been racking my brain over this same dilema for a while now, I’ve pretty much decided to go with the 3hp dual-canister collector here and add on a thein or super dust deputy later on

View Volund's profile

Volund

31 posts in 706 days


#12 posted 12-10-2013 07:04 PM

There’s a lot of science to dust collection. First, CFM at the tool is key. Every turn, every rough surface and even every foot of pipe itself will reduce your final CFM, so starting big is really necessary. You will never regret having higher CFM. Use smooth pipe for as much of the runs as possible, use sweeps instead of 90 deg. turns, and use at least 4” pipe… 6” if you can. Neck down as close to the tool as possible, and limit your use of hose as much as possible.

Note that 2HP is about all you can get on a 110 circuit. You’ll probably want to limit the tools you run on the same circuit as the running DC. A compressor or TS firing up on the same circuit is liable to pop your breaker.

I use a Clearview cyclone with a 2HP DC. I have filled a 30 Gal. trash can 5 times from the cyclone’s output, and there is still less than 1 gal. of dust in the bag from my blower. The bag sits below my 5nm canister filter, which I shake clean regularly. This is a critical measure of the success since dust will plug any filter, and a plugged filter reduces your CFM dramatically. I can’t say enough for cyclone technology in general and the full-size Clearview in particular.

I’d also recommend an ambient air filter. There are plans all over the Internet for filters that use furnace inserts. You’ll be amazed how quickly those need to be cleaned even with good DC at your stationary tools.

Personally, I find the chop saw and table saw are the hardest to catch dust from. This is especially true of dust that comes off the top of the table saw. For my Grizzly 5HP saw, 750 CFM at the saw is about bare minimum to keep the cabinet clear. I’d guess you will see about half that with the setup described at the top of this thread.

Good luck,
- AJS

View reedwood's profile (online now)

reedwood

891 posts in 1427 days


#13 posted 12-10-2013 07:11 PM

“why would you reverse the TS to face the door?” – personal preference for sure.

But, I find that it saves time walking around the TS and it works perfect for my layout. The sun lights the table if the door is open in the summer, the dust port faces the right way on my Unisaw, and it works well when cutting and staging a lot of pieces. 4×8 sheets are easier too.

You can rip a 16 ft. 2xs easier too with the door open. Raise the blade into it halfway, flip it and finish rip right out the door.

Say, You keep talking about planning on kickback and you’re going to jinx yourself!..... cut it out already! Ha!

-- Mark - I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.

View MJCD's profile

MJCD

455 posts in 1122 days


#14 posted 12-10-2013 07:22 PM

First, I would opt for a 1.5hp / 2hp single stage DC, with the Oneida Super Dust Deputy separator prior to the impeller – you’ll get the cyclone benefits at a much reduced cost. Use the extra money to purchase the Wynn Nano (HEPA) filters – you will collect as much dust in your system as the cyclone, and breath easier with the Nanos.

Second, I would reverse the orientation of your table saw, and shift it to the common wall (with your DC), and run a 4” or 5” main (from the Oneida) to the back (4”) of the machine. This will place your TS mid-run on the wall, allowing room for a Router Table, or your sander at end-of-run.

-- Lead By Example; Make a Difference

View retfr8flyr's profile

retfr8flyr

260 posts in 420 days


#15 posted 12-10-2013 07:36 PM

My shop area is not as large as yours so I just move the DC hose to each machine as I use it. I am restricted to 110 for my DC, as I only have one 220v outlet and need that for whichever machine I am using. I have the Jet 1100VX-CK 1 1/2 HP DC, this DC has the cyclone action as well as decent CFM. I have been very happy with this DC and it does a great job for me. I have filled the bag many times and nothing seems to get by the filter back into the room. Almost everything goes into the bag, when I use the filter scraper almost nothing appears. With 220v available the 1200VX 2 HP model would be even better.

-- Earl

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