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Sargent 409 Plane. Help me identify Type

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Forum topic by RoaringShepherd posted 12-05-2013 10:25 PM 2283 views 0 times favorited 29 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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RoaringShepherd

5 posts in 1095 days


12-05-2013 10:25 PM

Topic tags/keywords: sargent plane 409 smooth type

I have a question about my Sargent 409 Plane. I am having difficulty determining the type. The logo looks most like the ones seen on the Type 4. However, the logo is on the plane iron, not the lever cap. The lever cap is blank. The screws are somewhat rounded, though not perfectly round. Any thoughts?

I’m new to plane collecting, so I’ve got a lot to learn.

-- Daniel


29 replies so far

View Don W's profile

Don W

17960 posts in 2029 days


#1 posted 12-06-2013 12:44 AM

check out this http://lumberjocks.com/topics/47190

What does the lateral adjuster look like.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.net

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Paul

660 posts in 3554 days


#2 posted 12-06-2013 12:53 AM

Lots of good information in the above post and link. I was unaware of a type study of Sargent Planes, although I’m thinking there’s some published information in the Midwest Tool Collectors Association Magazine back issues. It would take me a while to relocate it though. I don’t think my MWTCA has indexed all the articles from their magazines.

-- Paul, Texas

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#3 posted 12-06-2013 01:00 AM

Daniel,
Looks like a good user, And IMO I still think Sargent planes are an over-looked premium hand plane, particularly around the turn of the century. Hang in there and keep looking at and studying Sargent planes… ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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RoaringShepherd

5 posts in 1095 days


#4 posted 12-06-2013 04:26 AM

Thanks! This is very helpful, you guys. I bought the plane for a dollar at a flea market just to clean up. The varnish on the wood was cracked and looked pretty bad and everything else was gummed up. It was fun to clean up, and I had planned for it to be something just to use. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the tool the more I cleaned it up. I look forward to using it. Thanks!

-- Daniel

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RoaringShepherd

5 posts in 1095 days


#5 posted 12-06-2013 04:50 AM

By the way, Don. Here is a picture of the lateral adjuster:

I still haven’t identified my exact plane yet, though. Comparing it to the 418 and some others, it seems like a mid-century version, but I can’t get an exact pinpoint. It doesn’t matter too much. It would just be fun to know exactly what type.

I’ll keep looking. Paul, I”ll see if I can get a hold of some MWTCA magazines to identify it.

Mike, I’m with you. I’m really looking forward to using this plane. I’m going to finish some cleanup and find an excuse to use it tomorrow if I can.

You guys are very kind to help point me in the right direction. Thanks!

-- Daniel

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Don W

17960 posts in 2029 days


#6 posted 12-06-2013 01:53 PM

I would guess you have a late type 4. The lat adjuster is type 4 or later. The iron is a type 4, but the base may be a type 5, so it could be a very early type 5. Keep in mind there is even more overlap the Sargent types then Stanleys, and that’s saying a lot.

Edit: Mike’s next comment on the cutter is correct. I was looking at the wrong page in the guide. Why they put different logo’s on the cutter than the cap is a mystery to me too.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.net

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#7 posted 12-06-2013 01:53 PM

Daniel,
Here is what I observe about your HP:
  • The knob is tall which was produced AFTER the VBM period or 1919—
  • The flat face of the frog indicates that it was produced starting in 1910 and beyond.
  • The chipper has an “oval” hole that is indicative to Sargent (NOT like Stanley’s chipper)
  • Your blade/cutter indicates that it is post-WWII, a Type5 (1942-1950),
  • The ribs on the back of the lever cap match that 1942-1950 time frame
  • The adjusting nut on the frog is all steel, with a very thin plating of brass = same time frame

SO, bottom line assessment is that you have a 1942-1950 Sargent #409 with accurate parts throughout. 8^)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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RoaringShepherd

5 posts in 1095 days


#8 posted 12-06-2013 09:25 PM

Horizontal Mike,

Thanks so much! This is very helpful! It is really great to know what I’ve got. Somehow, it makes it feel a little more special. I really appreciate it!

Daniel

-- Daniel

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alohafromberkeley

257 posts in 1866 days


#9 posted 12-08-2013 10:23 PM

Mike or Don, I have a 408 VBM with a tall knob and a 408c with a short one.They both appear original and match the totes. I am getting so confused. Were tall knobs only after 1919? Did Sargent have more overlaps in parts? My VBM lever caps both have ribs,with VBM on cutters. My frog is not horseshoe and does not have the lines on it – it’s just plain . The frog bed has squared posts for the frog screws. Is this typical or atypical? Do I have a 408 mutt on my hands? Thanks you and Don really seem to know more about this stuff than the Sargent type study site!

-- "After a year of doing general farmwork, it was quite clear to me that chickens and I were not compatible"-George Nakashima

View Don W's profile

Don W

17960 posts in 2029 days


#10 posted 12-08-2013 11:56 PM

Sargent had a lot of overlap. Have you read Mike’s thread http://lumberjocks.com/topics/47190

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.net

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alohafromberkeley

257 posts in 1866 days


#11 posted 12-09-2013 12:04 AM

Don, actually I have read it I think that’s where I got hooked on Sargent. I’ll take another look. Thanks

-- "After a year of doing general farmwork, it was quite clear to me that chickens and I were not compatible"-George Nakashima

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#12 posted 12-09-2013 12:18 AM

”... I have a 408 VBM with a tall knob and a 408c with a short one.They both appear original and match the totes. I am getting so confused. Were tall knobs only after 1919? ...”

Everything that I have come across, at least what appears to be original, would indicate that the shorter knob existed through the end of the VBM era, 1918. I have 407, 408, 409 VBMs and they all have/had low knobs. I have a pre-WWII Type4 1919-1942 #407 and it has the tall knob.

All that being said, totes and knobs are/have been swapped out all of the time. Just speaking for me alone, I am going forward that indeed OEM short knobs ended in 1918, with the VBMs. I suspect much of may have been a stylized change with Sargent’s “new” post VBM marketing (remember George Sargent died in 1917 and WWI was putting increased demand/pressure for the tools). Some overlap always occurs during model changes as old parts are used up.
Just my 2-cents…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Don W

17960 posts in 2029 days


#13 posted 12-09-2013 12:22 AM

I can’t find any reference to the switch from low to high knob. We may need to start putting together some time frames.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.net

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#14 posted 12-09-2013 12:30 AM

Just curious @alohafromberkeley, tell us more about your 408C. Also go back and look at my post #40 in THIS thread for comparison . This is an early 5408 (predecessor of the 408C) and they do show up once in a while. Hmm…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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HorizontalMike

7143 posts in 2376 days


#15 posted 12-09-2013 12:34 AM

Hey Don, I guess we could always do a voyeuristic study of the Sargent planes on eBay to get a better feel for knob height in what model year. That would be cheaper than buying all of them for sure ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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