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Question: trying to make it darker

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Forum topic by danr posted 233 days ago 626 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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danr

150 posts in 1781 days


233 days ago

Topic tags/keywords: question finishing greene and greene

Hello to all of you who are better at finishing than I (which would be all of you).

I have a G & G table project that I have recently completed. It is all made from QS White oak with Ebony plugs. My usual finishing process starts with yellow die (to highlight the ray fleck) followed by oil based Mahogany colored stain (tinted heavily with black Mixol die). This usually results in a very rich, medium to dark, brown color which I like. I then finish with amber shellac. The final appearance is that of an antique with lots of patina.

On this particular piece I have having a bit of trouble getting the brown darkness that I would like. I have put on two coats of the stain (which helped a little bit) but it seems like the piece will just not accept any more color.

If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


16 replies so far

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1205 posts in 669 days


#1 posted 233 days ago

I just darkened an oak piece by staining it, then finishing it with two coats of of sanding sealer, and two coats of lacquer. It wasn’t quite right so I shaded it with a lacquer tinted with a black deep penetrating stain. I darkened everything in a nice even way. I had several test pieces set up to get the shading right, and got it in one coat this time.

-- Who is John Galt?

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

3261 posts in 1409 days


#2 posted 233 days ago

Your finishing schedule sounds good.
Maybe the dye was mixed to a different concentration, or the ratio of dye in the stain was off? Did it get sanded with finer grits than normal?
I have found with white oak that some boards just won’t darken as much. If it is a subtle difference, I suggest accepting it. It will look great once it is in a room full of G&G furniture.

Also, did you topcoat it? Take a scrap board through the entire finishing schedule, including topcoat.
It is amazing how the topcoat brings out the color and richness of a finish.

Can you include some pictures of the project, and the color you were expecting?

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

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a1Jim

111999 posts in 2173 days


#3 posted 233 days ago

danr
This is how true stains work ,each coat seals the wood so after a second coat your wood will not accept any more stain.
Dyes on the other hand will get darker with each application . You can seal your table with de-waxed shellac assuming your stain is dry and then do a coat of dye/stain. If you can spray it ,it makes it easier. You can thin dye and keep adding more coats until you get the color you want.

http://www.amazon.com/General-Finishes-Water-Based-Medium/dp/B002L6FWGS/ref=sr_1_19?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1386002142&sr=1-19

A nice gift to yourself might be a membership to Charles Neils on line finishing class or his new book on finishing,either will save you a lot of frustration while finishing your projects.

http://www.cn-woodworking.com/

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

3261 posts in 1409 days


#4 posted 233 days ago

Just a couple notes about the advise to tint or re-dye…

Tinting will obscure the grain, which is not usually the goal when working with white oak. It is best done by spray application. Any runs or drips are very noticeable because the stain/dye concentrates there. I have used tinting but it is certainly not my first choice.

Adding dye over a seal coat is normally an option. However, since the dye is yellow I can see that turning out poorly. It sounds like you’re basically using Jeff Jewitt’s recipe, which was intended to be a dye first, then stain application. I’ve been bit by yellow universal colorants in the past, and don’t want it to happen to anyone else.

Ultimately, take any finishing changes through all steps including topcoat on a sample board.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1112 posts in 2467 days


#5 posted 233 days ago

ok, lets see what we can do.

Have you topcoated it yet, ?

What is the proposed topcoat to be ?

how much lighter is the color ? ...meaning if you were able to get one more coat of stain do you think it would be enough

View danr's profile

danr

150 posts in 1781 days


#6 posted 233 days ago

Thanks for all of the inputs everyone.

-I have not top coated it yet.
-I am planning to use amber, waxed shellac for the nice antique patina.
-I would like the color to be one or two more shades darker. I have put two coats of the stain on allready and the 2nd coat made the color darker but not as much as I would have liked.

I am thinking of trying one more coat with addtional black Mixol die added in but, as A1Jim stated that might not do the trick.

Also, yes I did sand the White Oak with a finer grit than I normally have done in the past. I think that is part of my problem in not being able to replicate past results.

Dan

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1112 posts in 2467 days


#7 posted 233 days ago

Ok,

First off Mixol is not a dye, its a pigment, so it is not going to color like a dye, additionally Jim is correct the oil base stain is not going to get any darker the oil in it has sealed the wood.

I wish we had a sample board, because I think we may be able to get ther by glazing it. A glaze is , as Jim stated a coat of colorant over a coat of finish, in which case you ” MAY” be able to give it a quick coat of some spray can shellac, ( dewaxed and goes on thin) ( 1 lb cut) , this will seal the stain you have and allow you to do a light scuff sand. Light means a gentle wipe, so as not to cut thru, then apply a coat of stain over that. Its not going to take like it would on raw wood, but it will take some. you could do this 2 or 3 times if needed.. WE call it layering the colors. A suggestion that may helps even more would be to get some transtint dye , say a med brown and/or a dark brown, and mix it in water to make a water base dye, this can then be used as the glaze, and it can be made in as strong a solution as you want.

If the stain doesnt work, as we hope, you can simply wipe it off with a little mineral spirits or naphtha. In the case of the dye , water will remove it. Be sure to only do a small , easy to access area , if you do not have a sample board This way you can back up easily.

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danr

150 posts in 1781 days


#8 posted 233 days ago

Thanks for the feedback.

I have several things to think about here.

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

2439 posts in 947 days


#9 posted 233 days ago

You could substitute garnet shellac for the amber and it will add a small measure of darkness for each coat you apply.

-- Bondo Gaposis

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danr

150 posts in 1781 days


#10 posted 232 days ago

What do you think about trying to use the Transtint dye mixed into the shellac? Is that a good option? It will only cost me $20 to find out (on a sample piece). I read that the Transtint can be mixed with shellac but I am not sure if that is true.

The reason that I ask is because:
1.) I am only trying to shade a little bit darker
2.) it would save a step or two over the shellac sealer, scuff sand, dye process (I think).

I also think I understand the waxed/de-waxed shellack compatibility issues.

Again, thanks for all of your feedback.

Dan

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

1112 posts in 2467 days


#11 posted 232 days ago

You can add the transtint to the shellac , as long as you spray it, trying to brush it and get the color eve can be an issue , and if you spray it you need to do thin light coats and spray it in one direction then adverse, to keep the color as even as possible

View danr's profile

danr

150 posts in 1781 days


#12 posted 232 days ago

Thanks Charles,

I will experiment with that.

I do have a good quality HVLP spray system that I always use for shellac.

Dan

View KnickKnack's profile

KnickKnack

965 posts in 2163 days


#13 posted 232 days ago

Greene and Greene, QS oak – darker wanted – I’m surprised no-one has suggested you fume it in ammonia.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence." --- "Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope."

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danr

150 posts in 1781 days


#14 posted 231 days ago

KnickKnack

I have read a great deal about the fuming process and I realize that this is the “traditional method” for this style. I have built several items with this look and I have avoided the process as I have had good results with other methods. At this point I have already applied the stain so I don’t think this would be an option. Probably the real reason that I have not tried fuming in the past is that I have some reservations about using industrial strength ammonia. Maybe sometime in the future I will give it a go. I think your statement is very relative but I am already too far down the road on this one.

Thanks.

View Glen Peterson's profile

Glen Peterson

508 posts in 1652 days


#15 posted 225 days ago

Sorry I’m late in replying. I did a project called arts and craft display case and listed the finishing schedule. It was a multistep affair, but the results were great IMHO. I googled mission finishing schedule and arts and craft finishes etc. I found several and combined aspects of several. I wanted the rich brown color without fuming.
Good luck
Glen

-- Glen

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