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Does Roy take into account wood expansion?

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Forum topic by Oldtool posted 10-06-2013 01:58 AM 1045 views 0 times favorited 29 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Oldtool

1824 posts in 845 days


10-06-2013 01:58 AM

Topic tags/keywords: resource tip question joining the woodwrights shop mitered corners wood expansion

So I was watching the most recent web video of The Woodwright’s Shop, Rachell’s Standing Desk PT. 2 (which can be viewed at: ( http://m.video.pbs.org/video/2365021461/ ), and I don’t understand how Roy’s frame and panel lid allows for any movement of the 10” wide board, with the four part frame neatly mitered at all four corners.

Anyone got any idea how wood expansion doesn’t open one or more corner miters? I’d be most appreciative if someone could explain this one to me.

Thanks in advance for any input you may offer.

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln


29 replies so far

View Bud's profile

Bud

45 posts in 1939 days


#1 posted 10-06-2013 02:14 AM

Nevermind. I can’t tell how movement is compensated for either.

-- http://www.schoolisfortools.blogspot.com/

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TopamaxSurvivor

14747 posts in 2330 days


#2 posted 10-06-2013 02:45 AM

I think it must open them during that time of the year.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6971 posts in 1338 days


#3 posted 10-06-2013 03:00 AM

One makes things as tight as they can during the humid summer seasons, then, during the drier months of winter, the wood will shrink a bit. Whether it is a set of doors, or drawers, or even a lid, that is how is was done back then.

Did the old-timers care IF the board cracked from shrinkage? Not really, because they knew come summertime, that all them cracks would close up again.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

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Oldtool

1824 posts in 845 days


#4 posted 10-06-2013 12:23 PM

bandit571:
Sounds good, but then like school teachers, the craftsmen would have to take the summer off each year. LOL.
Well, I did look into this somewhat, and according to several sources (web sites) this 10” top could expand and contract as much as 3/16” to 1/4” each year. That seems pretty destructive to the frame, regardless of which way it goes. One would have to find that sweet spot time of year when the board is in the exact middle of maximum & minimum width, to limit movement either way to about 1/16” or so.
This one has me stumped.

-- "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The point is to bring them the real facts." - Abraham Lincoln

View Dave's profile

Dave

11168 posts in 1494 days


#5 posted 10-06-2013 01:49 PM

Oldtool I would not use that construction where I live. I almost used the same joinery on a coffee table. I used tongue and groove with butt joints not miters. I also pinned the ends. It is still together with no movement.
I also hate miters. There the weakest joint out there. IMHO

-- Superdav "No matter where you go - there you are." http://chiselandforge.com

View bbc557ci's profile

bbc557ci

541 posts in 728 days


#6 posted 10-06-2013 05:53 PM

I’ve seen lots of cabinet doors where the center panels are “floating” in the styles/rails. I always thought they were built this way to acommodate expansion & contraction. That mentioned, I built a cherry table for the kitchen about 20 years ago, all loose tennon – no nails or screws, with the exception of 6 screws used to keep the top on. I made elongated holes in the frame for the screws, and very lightly tightened, to hold the top in place. I originally made the top 40 inches wide. Depending on the season/humidity, it is generally 1/8th + or – the original 40 inches.

Agreed… I don’t care for miters either and avoid them.

-- Bill, central NY...no where near the "big apple"

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112089 posts in 2232 days


#7 posted 10-06-2013 06:24 PM

I think Roy spent most the time showing how to make the top, not explaining how it was glued together. As Roy says on many of his shows”well you get the Idea” leaving the glue up to your imagination. If he made elongated holes in the 3 tenons and used pegs to hold the bread board ends on just gluing the center tenon plus making the panel short enough in the sides to allow moment,then all is good re wood moment. If I remember right Roy’s show is shot in one take so he’s lucky to get the idea of what he’s trying to make across at all. I always enjoy his show.

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

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MrRon

2834 posts in 1898 days


#8 posted 10-06-2013 08:36 PM

I’m sure he does. How can you not take expansion/ contraction into account in any project.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14747 posts in 2330 days


#9 posted 10-06-2013 08:45 PM

I don’t see any “float” room. The top is butted tight against rails. Seems like that would open the miters a tad at some point.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View theoldfart's profile

theoldfart

4245 posts in 1106 days


#10 posted 10-06-2013 08:49 PM

Whenever I make a frame and panel, I will always make the grooves deeper than the panel requires by 1/4 to 3/8”.

On this one the grooves are in both the frame and the panel leaving the panel to float. Hope this helps.

-- "Aged flatus, I heard that some one has already blown out your mortise." THE Surgeon ……………………………………. Kevin

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14747 posts in 2330 days


#11 posted 10-06-2013 09:58 PM

Kevin, are you saying the expansion goes into the grooves and the shoulder butted against the frame doesn’t cause any problems with opening the miters or cracking the panel?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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theoldfart

4245 posts in 1106 days


#12 posted 10-06-2013 10:42 PM

Topo,in the panel above there is no shoulder to butt up against. The grooves are interlocking so when the panel expands, as it inevitably will, there is a gap for it. Think of the grooves as a a labyrinth joint. If I made a cutaway view you would see that there is a gap hidden inside to take up the expansion. I’ll see if I can find an illustration and post it since I’m not very clear in my explanations. You should have seen me trying to figure the damn thing out ;{

-- "Aged flatus, I heard that some one has already blown out your mortise." THE Surgeon ……………………………………. Kevin

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theoldfart

4245 posts in 1106 days


#13 posted 10-07-2013 12:14 AM

I did watch the video and it seems to me that there is no accommodation for expansion that I can see. His breadboard ends are made to not inhibit expansion but I do not see how he allows for movement at the miters.

The chest I posted above has been in use by my grandson for two years now and the mitres are as tight as when I built it. The joints on the top are mitered mortis and tenon. The sides are normal mortis and tenon . You can see the panels movement as the seasons change but the joints are tight and no gaps.

-- "Aged flatus, I heard that some one has already blown out your mortise." THE Surgeon ……………………………………. Kevin

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juniorjock

1930 posts in 2420 days


#14 posted 10-07-2013 12:45 AM

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Roy use any glue on anything like the project in the OP.

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TopamaxSurvivor

14747 posts in 2330 days


#15 posted 10-07-2013 12:48 AM

Thanks for the explanation. Maybe Roy figures NC is so humid the panel will be fully expanded all year long ;-))

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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