Why I decided to remove Oestrus project

You walked the fine line well, Martin.

No doubt, it was excellent craftsmanship. If it was JUST adults on here, I don’t think I’d care….but in today’s climate kids get bombed with so much sexual content, I don’t think we need it here.

-- http://newmissionworkshop.com

Well, I didn’t see it, and that’s OK by me.

A most difficult decision indeed.

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Firstly I respect your decision to remove a controversial article – for whatever reason.

I did not see the posting in question, however following the links you have provided, assuming the controversial piece of art was titled “Woman with rose” or similar then I must disagree with all those who complained, I find nothing offensive in this piece – there are far more graphical depictions of nakedness and lewdness freely available in everyday life, galleries and advertising (press, publications & billboards), not to mention the INTERNET. It is a shame a lot of people cannot distinguish between true art and smut.

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

It is sad to know that this was such ” A most difficult decision “

-- ericandcandi, Louisiana- Home of the "LSU Tigers"

You’ll never please everyone Martin…..I ran a 15,000+ member site a year or 2 ago (sold it)....and it was tough to keep the 1st amendment touters and the punters happy.

The bottom line is that a private forum is not bound by any free speech laws, you’ve made a decsion and we can stay or go :)

I think I’ll stick around :)

Good job M,

JC

-- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan

Your call, Martin, and you made it.

-- Thos. Angle

I’m actually kind of relieved that it’s been taken down, because of the morality issues that were brought up, as well as the idea that it wasn’t appropriate to be posted here where all ages could see it. What was sad for me, was that SOME, not many but some, were telling other people that it was ok, that kids would see a sexual act being depicted (on LumberJocks).

Tony, it wasn’t “Woman with rose” as that is FAR more tame than the project shown here. The author (Dusan) used poor judgement, in MY opinion, as this was an actual sex act, not just a woman’s backside.

To those who brought morality issues other than age appropriateness, shame on you for taking this to a place that doesn’t belong, too. I’m not here to have someone else’s morals put/pushed on me. I’m here for the woodworking projects, to see ANY work that falls into the guidelines of this site. You know the one’s we ALL agree to, when we sign up for this place.

As stated above, this is a private site so Freedom of Speech falls to the wayside on a private website. I’m very VERY adamant about free speech, but I also know that you can’t overstep the bounds on someone else’s website. Sadly, not everyone here is so up on the “law’s” of the web.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

It is not sad to know that this was such “A most difficult decision”

It is your site and your decision, Martin. I respect it and will continue to be here. But I am glad that it was a reasoned decision and not just a knee-jerk response to those who feel they have a right to restrict what everyone else should see.

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

Martin, there is an old saying that states that it is futile to toss pearls to pigs.

It possible we have just experienced first hand what this means.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob#2 you’re comment is acceptable by whichever side reads it.

I just think we have been slammed by the moral minority

Lee

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.

—yes Martin;
I respect your decision….

....however; I must also add that this piece of art did not offend me in any-way!

What I’m saddened by; is that once again art must take a step back, so as to not offend those who work within the rules and laws of naming and defining for other’s, ‘what is ageless and priceless’....hmmm, where the ‘dark ages’ really so long ago.

Now I’ve got to laugh at what Bob #2 said above, about ‘pearls’, ‘pigs’ and ‘first hand’. Having worked with pigs I can tell you that pigs will eat any-thing, but they will not digest pearls. So what happens with ‘first hand’ experience….is that by digging through the remains of their manure, I get to find those pearls they toss out.

My opinion and worth my .02 cents of sense….;

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

Hello to all – I posted at least 4 times on that piece, and was putting together another because of some of the comments, (some directed at me personally) and felt the need to clarify some things. I agree that some viewers found it to be offensive, yet I felt it should stay for a number of reasons. I stated a challenge early on, to distinguish the difference in the “masters works of art” and this mans work. Michael Angelo did many scenes of nudity and some with sexual content, India abounds with such art, the statue of “David” and the list goes on and on. I also felt and in the piece I tried to post but was unable to, that maybe we should have a seperate site for these types of pieces. I feel a need to protect our children too, but those who complained, I was going to ask this – When the ad on tv for “Girls gone wild” comes on, do you call in outrage to your tv station? When “Sex and the city” or like show is on that shows just as much with added motion and sound is playing on your set at prime time for all the kiddies to see, are you jumping up to block their eyes? I hope so, as I refuse to watch these types of programs myself, and change the channel when Girls gone wild ads come on until they are over. I can’t even stand to watch a woman being raped scene, as it is so wrong to me. We live today in a world I dislike very much, cheap sex rammed down our throats, killings with no thought to the of the value of life (on tv and in real life) which tv has played a role in this thinking. Every generation appearing to have less and less values and morals. Yet where did this come from? TV?, yes. Upbringing? yes and some of us fortunate enough to have parents who instilled these values are better people for sure, but it seems less and less do so in each coming generation. Europe has a much more tolerant attitude towards the human nakedness and sexual relations than this country, and yet we have a bigger problem here than they do. Why? We made it filthy, and we made it to be wrong. We left teaching our children up to our schools instead of ourselves as parents, is part of the problem, as well as the education of them by “hollywood”, the internet, and so many other sources. To one person who called it “porn” leave that label for Larry Flyntt and Hustler magazine and such material that our children seem to have no trouble obtaining, and I am against totally. If this was a website to artists and lovers of paintings, we would have much more of this type of “art” and it would be accepted because everyone knows that much art of this type is done. Because it is in wood, makes it unique, and so we will seldom see such work, but it is still art, and it is very skilled work he did, and if he was a known master of woodworking and the arts, we would be much more accepting of it. I doubt few if any of those who complained and said it should be removed, call their tv stations demanding the same of the shows and ads that are on, and to those I then call them hypocrits. One actually referred to “Disney” in a refference to keeping it “clean” on LJ. Living here in Florida, I scoffed at this statement that he made, as I do not and will not go to or ever endorse “Disney world” since they now have “Gay day” at their theme park. I stand against it on the principal that God says in the Bible many times how wrong it is in His eyes. (Romans ch. 1 verse 24-27 is just one place) So yes, I believe in God, I also know that God did not make man and woman with clothes on their bodies, and sex is not a filthy thing, and pity those whose upbringing brought on a twisted moral. I respect those who do not want their children to see this piece, just as you have the right to change or block the tv channel that shows things you do not want them to see, but you do not have the right to make your demands upon the rest of us who find it to be art and love the beauty in such a piece. I am much more offended by satanic symbols burned into wood, or other things I have seen on LJs in the past, that no one seems to say anything about. From now on, I will say my mind, and speak against it. I wish all of you peace in your life, and enjoyment of working in wood and safety in your endevours.

-- Dan Wiggins

We’re not talking about things away from LJ, we’re talking about something posted on LUMBERJOCKS! If you don’t believe in Disney having a “Gay Day” then that’s an opinion that should NOT be posted here on LJ.

Please stop bringing up religion and YOUR morals, as there’s no place for it here anymore than the depiction of a sex act, which is what it was. It was not simply an artistic nude.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

Martin- I forgot to add that I thought you wrote a fine piece on this and made a good call as you saw it. Thank you for thinking it through as you did. – Dan
Oldskoolmodder – You expressed your morals throughout all your postings on that piece. Some will never get it., and I didn’t start the comparison of ” Disney” to lumberjocks.

-- Dan Wiggins

Oldschoolmodder you don’t need to YELL get a Grip on yourself!!! And I believe savannah505 has every right to post what he believes in, just as you did and are doing now . Everyone let this topic gooo lets just agree to disagree and start chuckin wood.

Can’t we all just get along…. in the words of Rodney King ….Lol

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

Nope, my posts were about the fact that it was a sex act on a site that kids visit. That has nothing at all to do with morals. NOTHING! This was (for me) only about the rules of this site.

Your post right above mine says you don’t believe in Gay Days at Disney, THAT is what I’m referring to. YOU are set in your ways, that’s what you are so adamant about telling everyone here, and there’s no problems with that.

It’s obvious this is a hot topic today as it was all yesterday.

The only thing this is about “getting” is that fact that you can’t post something that kids will see, that is of questionable taste. I get it Dan, believe me, I get it.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

Dude GROW UP

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

Holy Cow! Now I can see why this site prohibits any non-woodworking references to politics and religion.

Folks, the piece has been removed by Martin, after a lot of soul-searching on his part. Let it be.

-- Chip -- Manchester, Connecticut "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

I find it kind of sad that a piece of art had to be taken down to protect the kids. Kids of today are to busy sending naked cell phone pictures of themselves back and forth to waste their time looking at our work. Who we kidding here. Lets not pretend removing that picture protects anyone. I found it to be a beautiful piece. The way emotion was brought out using wood left me speechless.

I have all the respect in the world for Martin. It is not easy hosting a website.

-- There is no such thing as a mistake. Its called a design modification Rick Kruse, Grand Rapids, MI

I agree with Rustic!

It WAS a tough call for you, Martin, and I respect your decision, even though I was in the “not offended” camp. I think there were some very valid points made on either side. Debate is great, excepts when people get angry about others not seeing it their way, and start attacking the person rather than the viewpoint.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I think that if we are going to follow rules then some of the other things need to go bye bye too. Dusans Gian Lorenzo BERNINI-St Jerome on his Knees before a Crucifix(1598), Jiri Parkmans Nativity scene, Birdseye Maple Urn – Pashley, Praying Hands Plaque 570 days ago by cajunpen, FaithRiver 718 days ago by Brian Neufeld,
Portrait of Jesus 719 days ago by BillJudt, A carving of the famous picture; Grace 721 days ago by Dick, & Barb, Cain, Country Church 714 days ago by Brian Neufeld, The Cross 714 days ago by Brian Neufeld, The Day We Were Saved 718 days ago by Brian Neufeld, Westportal 714 days ago by Brian Neufeld, He Gave Me Life
714 days ago by Brian Neufeld, Hope Chest—Finished! 665 days ago by Tommy, The Shroud 654 days ago by Roger Strautman.
All of these projects are religious in nature and should be removed. And this is probably just a small amount of projects that made it past the so called ‘Rules” section. NO Religious or Political postings or postings that may cause Controversy. There are several political threads in the forum section too, especially recently that should have been removed.
Why make rules and then only enforce them when people whine? I don’t understand. If the rules say no politics or religion Every post that is posted with this content needs to be removed immediately, or the rule needs to be removed. It makes no sense to me at all that we can censor one post but not another. I for one find this unacceptable, but I’m not the law and I do love the site. I just wanted to state my opinion. Now I’ll leave it alone.
BTW I wasn’t trying to single out Neufields posts, he just happened to have a lot of them conveniently placed for my beady little fingers to cut and paste. LOL

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I absolutely love this site for its members, its intellect ,artisan and over all the sharing of the art of woodworking, with that said we must as a whole respect all who view this site. I for one do not think the piece in question is offensive but we are a public viewing site with the whole range of ages taking part. Martin call to pull Dusan post is a tough call a adminstrative call which should be highly respected. To Dusan I say your work is truly a work of art and I respect your right to post and in the long run you spark a great debate on this site in which all member had a free rain to partake in, with that I say bravo Dusan …thanks for posting Blkcherry

Wow. I guess this is proof that you’ll never please everyone.

I have to say, even though I don’t agree with all the statements or point’s of view that some people make all the time in Lumberjocks, I can agree on one thing- You ALL do an exceptional job working with wood. Can’t we all just calm down, shake hands, and get back to woodworking?

Martin, thanks for doing such a good job.

—Steve

-- As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. (Proverbs 27:17) †

I’m behind you Martin. Whatever your decision.

-- Mike. mwurm13@yahoo.com

I followed the link to find out what caused the great controversy. I thought I’d see something that would transform Lumberjocks to a porn site. If the image/s posted here was/were of a similar nature, then what’s the fuzz all about? I took a long hard look and I saw nothing but pure unadulterated craftsmanship.

GEEZ! If I am a minor and I want porn I’d stay way from Lumberjocks!!!

-- "Real jocks do it on a bench"

Let me stress again that I was also in the “not offended” camp. That’s why this decision was so tough… it wasn’t about me, instead it was about the future direction of this site.

To everybody referring to nudity in art – I think I stated it clearly that human body art is not in question. But this project was displaying a sex act. Would you be still ok if somebody posted rude sex art that you can find in porn mags – done in an artistic way? How would you decide then? Intent of the author? That sounds like very subjective criteria to me and even tougher call…

kolwdwrkr – yes, we have “Don’t discuss politics and religion, unless it is directly related to woodworking.” rule. All projects you listed are “directly related to woodworking”. Woodworking connected to religion has long tradition and there is no reason to not display these projects here. However offtopic discussions re politics and religion tend to cause problems. You also said “There are several political threads in the forum section too, especially recently that should have been removed.” – send me a PM listing these threads please.

ericandcandi – please spend more time on LJ before bashing site moderators so quickly and informing advertisers about “BIG LJ problem” ;)

Yup I already know that I’ll never please everyone ;)
Back to woodworking and enhancing this website!

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

Martin, Let me first say that I don’t envy the position you’re in. But, you can’t please all the people all the time, especially in the diverse cross section of world society that this site provides. I’m just thankful that we’ve got the wonderful product that you’ve created called Lumberjocks.

-- Carl Rast, Pelion, SC

Martin, as far as I’m concerned it’s your site so it’s your call. I didn’t see the project, but I’ve seen enough of your character on this site to know that you are a man of honor and integrity.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Heh….it’s just funny. Personally, I think “arguing” on the internet is one of the most ludicrous things I’ve ever seen. Now it’s usually fairly futile to argue with someone in person, because in most cases people come to the argument with pretty solid beliefs that aren’t going to be changed.

But on the internet you’re arguing with font on a screen, put there by someone you’ll never ever meet in person. What exactly is the point of this? I can only image someone furiously pounding at the keys, spittle flying from their lips, as they hammer out their side of the argument.

If I wanted to do that I’d just argue with a doorknob and save the electricity.

Lighten up!

Boardman, there is a degree of truth to what you say. Most of the time, people engaged in internet arguments are so entrenched in their thinking that they don’t even really consider what the other person is saying. However, if you approach such discussions with an open mind, you can often learn things that will make you rethink your position. Even if you don’t change your mind, you might come away with a better perspective of the opposing point of view.

I would not be opposed to political or religious threads in the forum area, because everyone has a choice of whether to read, participate, or just click away from it. The project in question was a little different because it did sort of smack you in the face as you browsed projects.

I originally thought anyone who was complaining just needed to grow up. But after reading some of the more thoughtful comments, especially about one person who normally looks through the projects with a child on his lap, I could appreciate the other side of the argument. That is what I mean about the positive value of debate.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I agree with Charlie M.
Martin, I don’t blame you for removing the post. But I have to say that I disagree that the other projects I listed are related to woodworking. Yes they are made of wood, but they are clearly promoting religion. They don’t describe the methods of how they were made or anything. They only depict religious content. However, I really don’t care about any of them. They are nice projects even though I am not religious. The more I think about the projects statement the more it bothers me, but I’m mature enough to move on from them and give the artist Kudos for great work. I think that there is a very fine line that in my opinion gets crossed from time to time, and the only reason anything is dismissed or removed is because of complaining. Personally I don’t want you to remove projects from the site that are inspirational, or great pieces. The religious pieces I mention are nice pieces, and although they do not inspire me in any way shape or form, I’m very positive that they inspire other woodworkers to attempt projects they may have not tried before. And that is what is great about the projects. The post that got removed was very inspiring to me. I am very glad I saw it. I fully intend on using his art as an influence to my work, as I think it was beautiful as an artist. I hope that there is an additional page added in the future that allows postings of “Mature” nature so artist like Dusan, or even myself, can post projects that we work so hard to produce.
I also wanted to give congrats to the other side. I firmly believe in fighting for what I stand for and the threads posted were testament that other people believe the same thing. I do agree and see your point of views on a lot of the issues, especially the children issue. However, I do agree with the others that there are ways to explain the art without raising questions. This post was merely showing a woman sitting on a mans lap. It did not show anything private. That is where the argument comes in. You talk about porn magazines and the like. But they show the actual act itself in full detail. They don’t show two people sitting together nude. To you it looks like the act because you are fully aware of sex. Your personal maturity is what determines your ability to discuss things with your children. I personally could have made up a “white lie” and detered my daughter from the post completely, or I merely would have said that we can look through things later, when the post wasn’t front page anymore.
Oh well, Life goes on.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I guess we cannot but accept the decision Martin has made. That of course doesn’t mean everyone agrees with it nor do we all buy the argument that the piece is worse than many other religious pieces showcased in this site. If the rules say that piece isn’t appropriate, it isn’t unless we don’t play by the rule. Artwork is always in the eye of the beholder, just as God is in the mind of the believer. Even in this 21st century, there’re many in the US who don’t believe in sex education for school age children. The Catholic school board in my region recently even rejected the HPV cancer vaccines for its female students on moral reasons! Many parents of the schools protested and vowed to take their girls to other health facilities for the vaccination. People die from cancers but for this group of religious decision-makers, moral reasons are more important (they believe the vaccination would encourage girls to have sexual relationships). This should partly explain why we’ve seen the kind of arguments made about the subject piece.

-- The time I enjoy wasting is not time wasted

It was a beautiful piece of work Dusan.But not one to be displayed for youngsters to see who truly don’t understand it.

-- Dustygirl..Hastings,Ontario.. How much wood can 1 gal chuck if 1 gal can't cut wood?

I guess my anatomically correct reindeer pencil sharpener would be just another thorn in someone’s side, so I won’t bring it up here.

If what you produce is artistic, there is a place for it and an appropriate venue. As for small children, I’d rather they saw nudity in a tasteful way their first exposure than watching the next door neighbors go at it in their swimming pool. A steady diet of naked erotica gets old after awhile. It’s not art, then it’s not what we as wood artists are about. Here are some rules of thumb you should consider in producing this kind of art without crossing the line:
1. Avoid sex organs that require more than 3 board feet of material to make.
2. Never spray breasts with ferrous paint. The nips will always tend to point north.
3. If you start finding more digital photos of your artwork tucked under your teen-ager’s mattress than Playboy or Hustler magazines, you’ve probably gone over the line.

I hope this helps.

-- Sir Robert

“2. Never spray breasts with ferrous paint. The nips will always tend to point north.”

Sayyy, what a fabulous idea for an artistic compass!

-- Dylan Vanderhoof - General hobbiest and reluctant penmaker. http://llarian.etsy.com

Martin, I think that would be a good idea to have an adult section that one could post too without offending. It might have to be password protected so the little ones don’t get in. Thanks for keeping a very good website in order.

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

Martin maybe we could also have a religious section, for those of us who believe in God. I hope you think about this. The nice thing is, those who wish to communicate in a religious manner or show religious woodwork would be able to do so without complaints from non-believers. Again, thank you Martin for having a very good website.

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

I have to say again that I do not care if people post religious projects on the site. Woodworking is woodworking and I care more that the artist is trying and doing the work then the topic of the project itself. I was merely saying that having a rule that is not followed is silly. So pokieone post a big huge carving of Jesus turing water into wine. I don’t care, just do it to the best of your abilities and make it about the work itself.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Ericandcandi you stated, “It is sad to know that this was such ” A most difficult decision “”. Why are you so unhappy with Martin?

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

Sir Robert…....HA!
As for the rest…..I have no opinion on this at all.

-- Michael A. Brailsford

Martin, Whatever you choose to do to moderate YOUR website is OK with me. After all, it is YOURS! We are your guests.

Bravo KW,

My .02 – Lets not divide the site up.

Pretty soon we would have too many rooms.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

kolwdwrkr, I was not referencing your post. However, say I did make a big huge carving of Jesus turning water into wine. Would it be OK if I talked about the significance of the work I created and how my faith is strengthen through such a work? Would you be irritated about my expression of faith and how it moves me?

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

The problem is that you start refering to something that others don’t believe in, making statements that become controversial. That is why the rules say no politics or religion, simply because these topics are controversial in nature and could be offensive to some. So if you did post the carving you could talk about how you did it, but not the belief that gave you the uncontrolled power within, and that Jesus guided you to the light and helped make the project possible. You can be tutorial about the work itself but as soon as you bring in the religious aspects of how it became what it is it becomes hogwash and should be dismissed.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

ChicoWoodnut, are you willing to read my love for God and how it transcends into my woodwork? If not, then maybe we should have another room for those who would like to involve God in their work.

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

Just my 2 cents…. Disney does not sponser nore endorse GAY DAYs…. it does not appear on any calender of events from disney and no special rates to events take place on gay days…. it is a bunch of gay people that have thier own website that all agree to go to disney on a certain day (in june if I remember correctly) and they all wear red shirts…...

All that said I am not gay, but I wissh it would have been on official disney event because it would have been on the calender of events and I could have chosen not to take my niece, mother, Fiancee at the time and her nephew and mother to disney on Gay Day….. oh and I would have known not to wear a RED shirt…. needless to say I bought a new non red disney shirt (don’t want to False advertise)..... but on a serious note I have no issues with Homosexual people my neighbors are a gay couple and honestly they are the funniest coolest neighbors I have ever had….. that said I will NEVER go to Disney on gay days…. talk about a family place being turned adult, it wasn’t the Gayness ot was the over sexualness that was going on… I mean if it was straight couples acting the way that people were acting that day I would have the same issue…..

wow I rambled….

Martin tis your site and I am cool with whatever choice you had to make…...

-- Hrolfr

I find that statement very offensive! Because you don’t believe, the work is hogwash and should be dismissed. What a shame!

Also, you stated “The problem is that you start refering to something that others don’t believe in, making statements that become controversial.”

Well, let me say that many, many people do believe and are no longer willing to be silenced by your odious mentality.

Let me say it again, we who believe in God should have a room, where you would not have read our post and we would not have to read your ugly comments about God believers.

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

Then the controvery begins which is the point all together. I said it before, post your religious carvings and projects, just don’t bring up religious remarks, statements, etc that is controversial. That is what makes it hogwash because your views may not be the views of others, and until you realize that religion will always be controversial. You wanting to post your beliefs and pictures of god and jesus and the like are meant to solicite religion. Keep it in the church and nobody has a problem. BTW, I never said the work was hogwash, I said the religious aspects of how it became what it is is hogwash. That leads me to believe that you are looking for controversy, especially when you don’t read and understand the words of comments.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

If it offended me I would not read it. A pretty simple thing to do.

Unless of course I was out monitoring the board looking for something to feel persecuted about.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

Scott, good one.
Pokieone, I sent a private message to take the conversation private as Martin suggests in the rules. I apologize to everyone else that I did not take this initiative sooner.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I saw the work and first thought was “he really put a lot of time into this piece!” and the second was “But it might be a little too much for this family oriented site.”

Oh and I did check the other projects Dusan offers…real nice detailed stuff here!

Kudos Martin!

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Oh boy, here we go again. One of the problems with talking religion is that there will always be more people trying to convince another that they need God/Jesus/Religion in their lives, than those who choose not to tell people that. There’s far too much controversy as we see the certain people continue to talk about it here, than should have been brought up in the first place.

This site is about woodworking, NOT about religion, if it becomes much more about religion than it already is, then sadly it won’t be a good place to come for inspiration anymore. There will only be more infighting here as there is “out in the real world”. People need to mind their own business sometimes and respect the views of others, (ironic that I say that, isn’t it?) without the “I’m better than you are” attitudes that often times come from people who talk so much religion. Bottom line? If people want a separate room to talk about religion and projects that include religion, than that means they want to be separated from the rest. What good does that really do anyone at all?

I really hope that Martin has some aspirin or something close by, because this is getting way out of hand.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

Oldskoolmodder is right so I want to say that if anyone has anything to say to me or directed to me please send me an e-mail. I look forward to any negative or positive remarks. ;-)

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Kolwdwrkr and pokieone – Before you move this on to a private site, I think all should benefit from this, as you leave it up in the air, then I will leave this alone. Anyone posting a religous piece should be able to tell the story of what influenced THEM. Just as someone who donates or makes something for a specific reason, say vets cause or cancer victims, it makes a good story which I’m sure K….r you wouldn’t object to. We who believe are compelled at times to do our pieces and are not trying to sway you, it seems you just can’t stand to hear the story at all behind the piece if it has to do with a religous feeling. Read if you wish and go on, I can’t see why you would be so offended by this, and so far you are the only one strongly objecting, and as you liked the art work posted that was removed by a few that complained, I don’t want to see our stories of inspiration behind our pieces removed also. If you don’t believe, I or others I’m sure are not trying to make you accept and be a believer, just read about it or don’t read about it, but let it be. Throwing in an edit, I wrote this before I refreshed and saw new by K…....r. and was not trying to carry on after request by K…r

-- Dan Wiggins

If this keep up, Martin will have to explain why he took off a post explaining why he took off a post.

Martin, It is YOUR sight and if you think it needed to be done, so be it. I am behind you in your decision.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

“Oh boy, here we go again. One of the problems with talking religion is that there will always be more people trying to convince another that they need God/Jesus/Religion in their lives, than those who choose not to tell people that.”

Right!

There are lots of folks who don’t feel the need to share religion. I have my own beliefs and respect others, regardless of theirs. This gets really important in an international forum.

-- - Please help keep Lumberjocks an enjoyable escape by refusing to participate in political discussions. Simply spit out the bait and ignore the thread...

Lumberjocks,

The decision was, is and will be Martin’s to make and he did.

I think this has been beat to a pulp and we need to move on.

-- Max "Desperado", Salt Lake City, UT

Kolwdwrkr You really need to let this go ! ....... As we all should do.

I guess some people have to keep beating a dead horse

It’s going nowhere now, Martin did what he felt he had to do and we should all respect that.

ITS TIME to start chuckin wood Again.

-- Rj's Woodworks,San Jose & Weed Ca,

10-4 big max.

Well done Martin, I’m glad it was a tough decision that required considering it from many perspectives because its shows what a well thought out decission, it really is.

-- RTB. "dumb animals are not stupid they simply can't talk "

A tough decision Martin. I am glad you had to do this and not me. I found nothing wrong with this art but then there are young ones with different up bringings.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

bit+bit…..just had to add my two

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

It seems we continue to beat a dead horse. I just want to say thank you to everyone on LJ who post wonderful projects, they are truly amazing regardless of what the inspiration was.

-- Please bless me in woodworking, Adrian is my husband and teacher!!!

I went to church, brunch, and then to my shop today. I made this 11” tall hallow form vase.

I took a short break to see if you all have solved this issue yet. I guess not. Back to the shop for some sanding in preparation for the finish…

I’ll check back later to see if you all have resolved this issue yet, or are still arguing like second graders.

-- My favorite piece is my last one, my best piece is my next one.

I just want to say that, I have no wish to convince other’s that they need God/Jesus/Religion in their lives. I’m just a guy that loves God and woodworking…that’s all. If anyone was offended by my posts, then I’m sorry.

-- I will not preach, nor will I be silent.

wow….I have been on LJ;s a lot the last couple weeks…and I MISSED IT…oh well…but I can say from being on LJ;s for 600 days…these firestorms arent healthy for anyone…

I say…lets move on…good night.

-- Matt, Napa, CA...fun is beautiful...just trying to have some fun...

Napaman – I was going to say the same thing.

Now I’m curious to see the project.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Hey trifern,

Isn’t that a butt of a woman bending over? At least, that’s how I see it. LOL

Peace everyone!

-- "Real jocks do it on a bench"

Controversy is ok. Flame wars and personal attacks are harmful – and political, religious discussions are leading to just that. It’s sad but true.

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

Put me in the category of loving sex and woodwork too much to possibly be offended. But theres a lot to be said for asking that human sexuality be kept away from the mundane and common place. A position i don’t arrive at by prudishness, but more a desire to not dilute into the ordinary such a magical aspect of our lives.

I feel the same way about some music that i really love. I don’t want to own it. Because it has such a connection to the times and place i remember it from. I don’t want to have it so accessible that i’ll forget this connection that gave the piece such meaning. So i hear it every once in a while by chance, and the magic is still there.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

Nicely put, Miles.

Joe, I’m offended that you mentioned going to church. lol!

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I didn’t see the project, but I’m sure Martin used good judgment with his decision.

Any carvings that I have posted, are strictly for the sharing of my talent.

I have never intended to sway anyone’s beliefs, one way, or another.

A person can’t walk, or drive down the street, & not see some sort of religious item.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Hey did you see that a new release of Sketchup is out!!!! It is supposed to be way more intuitive and fun…
Sticking my head firmly back into the sand… LOL!

-- ...it's rennovation time!!!

Thanks, Martin. Good job.

-- Rich, Seattle, WA

I’m wondering exactly what age is the youngest viewers on this site? Or is that something we’ll never know.
- JJ

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Dear Martin and all LJ’s,

-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tkso84fNPE

Very well written, Dusan…

-- My favorite piece is my last one, my best piece is my next one.

Dusan, if I send you my email address, will you send me a photo of what this all about?
-JJ

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I feel I failed to achieve the impression of beauty of the human body in an act of love, and not just a sexual act.

I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself. I think your work captured your desired impression.

-- Brian, Lebanon PA, If you aren’t having fun doing it, find something else to do.

Dusan, I agree with Brian. I did not see the work in question, but I have looked at your other work and based on those I find it difficult to believe that you’ve failed in any way. If some people fail to see the beauty, it does not mean that the beauty is not there. We all see with different eyes and your work shows the beauty that you see.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Martin, as a new member here , I fully support your decision. The piece was beautiful, the craftsmanship exquisite, but it depited erotica. and that was the issue here to me.
I am no prude, and see nothing wrong with a natural act.but kids visit this site.,
That said, it just was not appropriate IMHO to display erotica here, no matter how well done.
Good call, thanks for the site. I really like it.

Dusan – Well said!

-- The time I enjoy wasting is not time wasted

Unfortunately your work that created all of this controversy we removed, but I can also understand the reasoning. I am glad that I was able to view your work as it shows your excellent craftsmanship. Maybe in the future we can have an “Adult restricted” area if fine works such as your piece in question can be posted for us to view.

Meanwhile, please continue to share your wonderful work.

-- "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." ~ Edgar Allan Poe

Why are we all still flogging this dead horse?

I only take two things away from this whole experience:
1. Martin, who runs this site, posted this original message and has ultimate control over what is shown on this site, has spoken! Enough said!

2. From Martin’s own words: ericandcandi – please spend more time on LJ before bashing site moderators so quickly and informing advertisers about “BIG LJ problem” ;) I think we can all see where this problem started. Now, look at ericandcandi’s contribution to this site; absolutely no projects, just trouble. Enough said!

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

I’m against it, no matter what it is I’m against it !

-- Tom D