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Help me with clear coat, wh oak, veneer burnthrough... please?!?

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Forum topic by joeyinsouthaustin posted 08-17-2013 12:02 AM 2379 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


08-17-2013 12:02 AM

Topic tags/keywords: question oak veneering sanding finishing modern

I searched this topic and found some limited replies, and concerning stain. What I have is a veneer burn through in a white oak veneer. This project is complete and complicated enough, that rehab would be much preferred, even if complicated. The final finish is just a clear coat, a clear lacquer I believe (image posted) I have the talent to faux paint, or pencil in what I need to repair, I was quick enough to pull back before the entire grain structure was gone. I just don’t want to have a reaction with the clear coat. Being a clear coat, I am really want to stay away from post finish alterations, also because the finishing is by others. Can you help?? Please be specific with specs or brand names. .75 seconds from a really good friday, now losing $$ :( Thanks

-- Who is John Galt?


16 replies so far

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Dallas

3599 posts in 1951 days


#1 posted 08-17-2013 12:13 AM

Joey, somehow you lost me.
Is this a floor? I wonder because I see a set of clodhoppers standing on it.
If it is, in no way would I use lacquer to finish it.
The picture of the sealer you show is used for different lacquers, as far as I know. I have no idea about using it for spar varnish, polyurethane or floor finishes.

It looks to me like you have sanded through the stain that was added to the veneer to bring out the grain.
Find a piece of scrap and see if you can copy it.

-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!

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DaleM

952 posts in 2848 days


#2 posted 08-17-2013 12:36 AM

Do you have any Watco Danish Oil Medium Walnut on hand? I’m thinking the color is right, but it would need to be thinned a lot. Here is exactly what I would do. I would dilute Watco Medium Walnut with a lot of mineral spirits (you could probably use lacquer thinner too, but it make some oil stains chunky or grainy). I would make it so thin that it barely showed up, then wipe it on thin and add layers to sneak up on the color and blend it to the natural oak veneer. I would scratch in the grain lines so they take the stain darker. If it still wasn’t getting dark enough, I would add more stain to the mix. I’ve never done this with white oak, but I have done it with cherry plywood using Minwax Cherry stain with good success. Maybe someone else will have another stain suggestion for mimicing the white oak color, but I use what I know.

-- Dale Manning, Carthage, NY

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#3 posted 08-17-2013 01:01 AM

Dallas Thanks for the compliments on my shoes, but this is a pair of 3/0 10/0 specialty doors. The veneer is natural in the pic. As far as the sealer, I have little finishing experience, so this is what I know. When I asked el jeffe painter what finish he was using, he handed me that… He also spoke a brand of spanish that we couldn’t connect with (for those reading, this is common in texas… many different dialects)

DaleM That is a direction I will consider. In some of the threads I researched on LJs folks were mentioning things like acrylic paint and such. I am into the idea of being able to “color” or “paint” this in more than stain it, so long as I am confident that it is compatible. I.e. I pick up something that is chock full of silicone or something.

If you look close you can see the burn, about the size of a quarter down at the bottom of the left panel.

-- Who is John Galt?

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pintodeluxe

4855 posts in 2277 days


#4 posted 08-17-2013 01:15 AM

This is exactly why I dislike veneers. It makes your heart sink when you sand through them.

I assume you were not to your final sanding grit yet. Sand the whole door to 220. Go light over the damaged area.
Try a touch-up pencil in medium oak to replicate the grain lines. Then apply two light topcoats.
Orient the repair towards the floor if possible.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

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,

2387 posts in 3011 days


#5 posted 08-17-2013 01:25 AM

Joey, sure wish I could give some helpful advice. We do a ton of lacquer finish in our shop and are great at that, but sanding through a veneer, we don’t even sand plywood. So we never have this issue.

I was however thinking, and this might not be to your liking, but Paxton Lumber sells sheets of 1/16” 4 * 8 oak, I believe they are solid, I don’t think they are a veneer. So the edge is 1/16 thick and is not a plywood edge. They tried to sell some to me for cabinet skins but I rarely ever do oak and most of our cabinets are dressed in door panels on visible ends. I recall the price was around 50.00 for a sheet, very fair. So if it were me, I would entertain the idea of laminating a 1/16 skin over your project and move forward with finishing as planned.

-- .

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,

2387 posts in 3011 days


#6 posted 08-17-2013 01:27 AM

Occasionally we build dovetail baltic birch drawers and those we sand before finishing but the veneers are thick and we never sand through them.

-- .

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tefinn

1222 posts in 1901 days


#7 posted 08-17-2013 01:29 AM

I’ve used this once before (helped actually) on a job at work. Are you going to be topcoating ? This is only a seal coat ment to be topcoated, If I remember it’s compatible with lacquer, poly and maybe more. We used oil based poly on the job. So whatever you use under it might be fine with it. To be sure I’ld check with Sherwin-Williams and see what they recommend.

-- Tom Finnigan - Measures? We don't need no stinking measures! - Hmm, maybe thats why my project pieces don't fit.

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#8 posted 08-17-2013 01:56 AM

Pinto do you have a name or brand on touch up pencil? that sounds like a diretion i would go in. tefin: all of the finishing is by others… so i am trapped and need a solution that will work well with a number of clear coats and languages?

-- Who is John Galt?

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JAAune

1643 posts in 1781 days


#9 posted 08-17-2013 05:49 AM

If the burn through isn’t completely through the veneer (veneer still left but thin enough to see through), it’s possible to touch up the color using pigments dissolved in shellac to disguise the damage. I’ve seen this done with enough success that only people who knew the location of the damage could spot it after the repair.

If there’s no wood grain left and the substrate is completely exposed there’s still one possibility left for achieving a near perfect repair. Use a hand plane to make some very thin shavings of wood of the same species and grain orientation. Use Gorilla glue for the adhesive and glue the shavings over the damage. I like Gorilla glue for this because it’s light in color and cleans up easily enough after curing that stains are unlikely to be an issue. Spread the glue very thinly though and clamp the shavings down tight to make sure the foaming action doesn’t create bumps and bubbles.

Very careful sanding with high grit papers is sufficient to remove excess Gorilla glue. After that the pigments and shellac can be used to add color until the repair matches the rest of the wood.

I’ve done the above on small repairs but haven’t tried larger ones yet.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#10 posted 08-20-2013 09:01 PM

Working in the direction of pigments, and dyes. practice is ok so far, but not finding the right colors. Meeting with the mohawk rep tomoro, to get educated. will continue the thread, including final repair photos, and products.

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#11 posted 08-22-2013 11:15 PM

Ok, here it is.. I settled on using the mohawk line of touch up products, as well as some other things. I used several of the blendal powdered pigments, their brush tip graining markers, their vinly sanding sealer, as well as an alchohol based ink marker, and a set of water color, color pencils.

Here is a reminder of the original damage. I started with a light sanding with 320 grit.

I blended the pigments on a white plastic paint pallet, using just laquer thinner and a small brush. I used a small piece of the same veneer to test the color before moving to the door. I then used a gentle brushing and finger dabbing method to build up a light back ground.

I the back of the razor blade to create graining in the pigment paste, and then let it dry completely. bout 2 min. Then I lightly colored in darker grain lines with the water color pencils. After that washed it with laquer thinner in a wide brush, almost dry, to blend up, and wash down the water color pencils. Next I lightly colored in more grain line with the graining markers. They are awesome, you can draw a dot the size of a newsprint dot with these. I raked the surface lightly with 100 grit, starting from well out side the repair. I used the almost dry brush to blend into a wider area, and then blended with a dry, smooth, cotton rag. Then I misted it with the sanding sealer, feathering away from the repair.

See next post.

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#12 posted 08-22-2013 11:21 PM

Sorry having image troubles.

After the sealer dried, I “toned” the color closer using pigments mixed in lacquer thinner, but very pasty, and lightly, then misted more sealer, sanded 320, and started blending final dry pigments in to the dry surface, feathering well outside the repair, but not the feathered sealer. I mixed the dry pigments on a piece of veneer, a worked them in slowly. Then used a grey alcohol marker with a brush tip to lightly duplicate the medullary rays. Final mist and blend, sanded 320, blending in, and a final scuff with 100 grit. turned over to painters for final clear coat. This was all tailored towards their sanding sealer, and a lacquer based clear coat system.

-- Who is John Galt?

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joeyinsouthaustin

1294 posts in 1536 days


#13 posted 08-22-2013 11:28 PM

Hangin ready to go. I will definently be doing more of this in the future. The important side notes. This was for CLEAR COAT top coat. You would not be able to stain this type of repair!! I have done repairs when staining is involved and frankly it is a lot easier, but now I feel good about treating the burn through before clear coat, or after light staining and finishing.

Thanks all and especially AAJune It was your comments about pigments that sent me in the right direction for this repair, and thanks to the Mohawk reps for coming to the shop and hand delivering to three pigments I couldn’t get locally. Also thanks to Mr. Boyd in Sunnyvale TX, please visit his shop Finishers supply company.

-- Who is John Galt?

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JAAune

1643 posts in 1781 days


#14 posted 08-23-2013 03:06 AM

Glad to be of service. Back when somebody first taught me that trick it was a real eye-opener for me as well. It’s a good skill to have because even though the technique is fairly simple, few people have the patience to do it well. Once people find out you can do it there’s bound to be some people bringing their repair jobs to your shop.

-- See my work at http://remmertstudios.com and http://altaredesign.com

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TCCcabinetmaker

930 posts in 1819 days


#15 posted 08-23-2013 03:14 AM

It’s actually important to sand veneers before finishing, however there is a diference in what you need to do to sand a veneer that has been run through a wide belt sander before shipping, and a piece of lumber you just milled. If you don’t sand it, minor scuffs and abrasions will show heavily, regardless of your finishing process. so you lightly (think quickly) sand the piece, usually takes me about oh, a minute for a sheet of sand paper, never let the sander stop, never bare down on the sander…Just keep constantly moving the sander at a fairly brisk pace.

-- The mark of a good carpenter is not how few mistakes he makes, but rather how well he fixes them.

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