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Where Do I Put The Pins?

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Forum topic by Boxguy posted 08-03-2013 02:59 AM 1798 views 3 times favorited 23 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Boxguy

2175 posts in 1731 days


08-03-2013 02:59 AM

Topic tags/keywords: question milling drill press

I always use hinges on my boxes, and I have a system for that. However, I am working on a different design with thicker ends and an inset, lift-up lid that spins on a set of 1/8 pins on each side. (This box is not glued up…just set together.)

I plan to embed the 1/8 inch brass pin by cutting a kerf in the lid, inserting the pin (rod) in the bottom of the kerf, and then gluing a 1/8 inch piece of veneer into the kerf and over the pin to hold it in position. Here is my problem.

Where should I locate the pin in the sides of the box?

Should the pin hole in the ends of the box be even with the outside-back of the side of the box?

Can I locate the pin so the overhanging lid will hit against the back of the box and let the back of the box act as a stop for the lid?

The back of the box looks like this:

Without the lid the box looks like this:

The side of the box looks like this.

The box is just sanded now…no finish yet. The woods are cherry and movingui.

Thanks for any help and suggestions you can give me.

-- Big Al in IN


23 replies so far

View maplerock's profile

maplerock

525 posts in 1263 days


#1 posted 08-03-2013 03:11 AM

How about a spring in the hole on one side of the lid… compress the brass pin against it and let it extend after lining it up with the hole in the box side? Like on a bi-fold or closet door, No kerf needed.

-- Jerry... making sawdust in the Knobs of Southern Indiana

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shipwright

7168 posts in 2261 days


#2 posted 08-03-2013 03:12 AM

I’d try to locate it to stop the lid just past 90 degrees (vertical).
That’s the same pin installation arrangement I used on my integral wooden hinge, albeit in a different configuration.
I think you’ve seen it but if not it is here: http://lumberjocks.com/shipwright/blog/series/4096
It may give you some ideas.
I like the way this new one is going. It will be a beauty.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fibreglass trees. http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Boxguy's profile

Boxguy

2175 posts in 1731 days


#3 posted 08-03-2013 03:27 AM

Jerry, thanks. Spring loaded pins do work, and I have used them in some applications. Ink pen springs serve the purpost well. Yours is a great idea and I may resort to that, but here I am going for strength and will drill completely through the two ends. My problem is where to drill the holes so the box lid will work well.

Paul, thanks. I went to your link. That is really beautiful work…especially the geodesic shell. I have made wooden clam shell hinges integral with a box, and I get how to do that. This application only calls for a pin in the lid and sides.

-- Big Al in IN

View Blackie_'s profile

Blackie_

4531 posts in 1976 days


#4 posted 08-03-2013 03:37 AM

Big Al, I sure wish I could give advise here as I’ve made several boxes with pin hinges but I don’t feel as though I’m strong enough to guide you on this application, My box lids have always been level with the top and I think I’ve been lucky with my placement so far, your lid is down below the side walls in which the ones I’ve done were level with the top edge of the side walls. I’m sure someone knows the answer to this question as I’d like to know as well, I’ll keep a watch on this thread.

-- Randy - If I'm not on LJ's then I'm making Saw Dust. Please feel free to visit my store location at http://www.facebook.com/randy.blackstock.custom.wood.designs

View DocSavage45's profile

DocSavage45

7703 posts in 2306 days


#5 posted 08-03-2013 03:39 AM

Al off the top of my head…LOL!

If the pin is going all the way through, could you use a square plug to anchor it? possibly rounding the back edge of the lid to match the front? You could put two more plugs in the front part to balance the piece.

-- Cau Haus Designs, Thomas J. Tieffenbacher

View Boxguy's profile

Boxguy

2175 posts in 1731 days


#6 posted 08-03-2013 03:39 AM

Blackie, thanks. Always glad to hear from you. Hope you are having fun in your shop.

Doc, since it is just 1/8 inches around, I’ll probably just fill it with something that I can later drill out if it ever needs repair…cherry splinter, glue, sawdust. Repair is the best reason to consider Jerry’s spring idea. The plugs would add to the look and be pretty. I will consider that idea. The square plugs with dark wood would add to the look. The dark splines pictured here are bamboo.

-- Big Al in IN

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

7172 posts in 2040 days


#7 posted 08-03-2013 03:40 AM

Maybe make a practice box out of some of fall and see where
the pin location works best?

View longgone's profile

longgone

5688 posts in 2772 days


#8 posted 08-03-2013 03:45 AM

You could also inset the top so that the back of the box acts as the stop for the top.
Another method of installing the pin is drilling through the side of the box with an 1/8” bit and continue about 2” into the sides of the top. Insert the brass pin and use a plug of matching or contrasting wood to fill the hole and keep the pin in. I have used this method many times and it only takes about 10 minutes to do.
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/43943

View Boxguy's profile

Boxguy

2175 posts in 1731 days


#9 posted 08-03-2013 03:52 AM

Waho, thanks. I am trying to avoid trial and error if I can. You really only get a couple of shots at this until the wood won’t be as strong as I’d like. Surely there is a formula for this.

Greg, The top is inset and I hope to use the back of the box as a stop. Yes, you are right, that may be a better way to drill the hole, but where do I put the bit? Drilling gets more complex with slanted sides.

-- Big Al in IN

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

7172 posts in 2040 days


#10 posted 08-03-2013 03:56 AM

Make a jig with a bushing in it.

View Boxguy's profile

Boxguy

2175 posts in 1731 days


#11 posted 08-03-2013 04:06 AM

Waho, thanks. That is a good method for drilling, but my problem is not how to drill the hole, but rather, where to drill the hole so the lid will work well and stop at 90+.

-- Big Al in IN

View Blackie_'s profile

Blackie_

4531 posts in 1976 days


#12 posted 08-03-2013 11:32 AM

When drilling my pins, I’ve always done it as Greg suggested only not drilling all the way through but just partial on each side my pins aren’t drilled all they way through the sidewalls, they are located on the inside, careful measurements and pin placement then I use the 1/4” dowels with the dowel centering kit once one hole has been drilled then I place the centering pin inside of the hole put the box together then line the lid up to the sharp point making sure it line just right then give the side wall a couple light taps with rubber mallet making the indent on the lid to be drilled.

Note the link I shared are for 3/8” they also come in 1/4” and I purchased mine at Harbor Freight.

If option to drill through the side of the wall then what I do is simply fill the hole with white wood glue and using the same sawdust that came from that side wall gathering a small pile of it, I cover the hole with it lightly tapping making sure not to squeeze out any glue and let it dry then sand, rinse and repeat as needed.

-- Randy - If I'm not on LJ's then I'm making Saw Dust. Please feel free to visit my store location at http://www.facebook.com/randy.blackstock.custom.wood.designs

View knockknock's profile

knockknock

337 posts in 1636 days


#13 posted 08-03-2013 11:37 AM

“where to drill the hole so the lid will work well and stop at 90+.”

If you want my uneducated guess. Assuming your are locating the pin in the middle of the thickness of the top. You would want the pin behind the back edge of the back (of the box), by at least half the thickness of the top.

Also, if it isn’t an optical illusion, that the inside of the sides are sloping inwards. You may have clearance problems, as the wider top edge of the top, tries to rotate into the narrower gap between the sides.

View littlecope's profile

littlecope

3055 posts in 2965 days


#14 posted 08-03-2013 12:16 PM

If I understand the question correctly Al, and if I can assume that you want the pin location in the middle of the box lid’s thickness, you’d want to locate the pin half the thickness of the lid plus a little behind the back of the box in order to have it hold at open…
The “little” would depend on how much overhang the lid has over the rear of the box… From the pictures, it looks like a 16th of an inch would be plenty…
If it were me, I’d just invert the dry-fit box onto a spare piece of wood (to keep the lid “closed”), and then carefully drill the 1/8” hole by hand through and into the lid… Take it apart and enlarge the lid’s hole, so that it swings freely, and done…
If you wanted holes that were hidden, you might have located the holes on the inside of the sides first, and not drilled completely through… Now that the sides are tapered, that would be a bit of a challenge…
Good Luck with it, however you decide! I don’t remember seeing a “Pinned Lid” where the lid stops, it is a very good idea!

-- Mike in Concord, NH---Unpleasant tasks are simply worthy challenges to improve skills.

View captferd's profile

captferd

165 posts in 1857 days


#15 posted 08-03-2013 12:36 PM

Draw a 45 degree angle from the back edge corner of the back piece up the side. The distance to the hole will be half the thickness of the lid.

This pic is not detailed but gives you the idea of how to figure. You may want to round the top of the back corner were the door rides just slightly. If you sand the bottom of the lid for adjustments you’ll lose the 90 degree up and down position. If you need a gap when closed a temporary spacer between the lid and back only. The 45 degree line changes to the top edge of the spacer. The rounded back edge would not be needed in this situation.

By the way, another great box already.

-- CaptFerd

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