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Baileigh equip vs competitor equip

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Forum topic by Jerry posted 276 days ago 1477 views 0 times favorited 25 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


276 days ago

Every since Baileigh has decided to market through LJ, they have been on my mind. When I first looked I quickly noticed they cost more than Grizzly but seem to look nearly identical. They seem very comparable but Grizzly is much cheaper.

In fact the http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691 is 1525.00 shipped to my door.

The http://wood.baileighindustrial.com/riving-knife-table-saw-ts-1040p-50 is 2,195.00 plus an extra 500.00 shipping to my door.

I know why Powermatic, Unisaw and Sawstop is more than Grizzly. Sawstop has the brake technology, Powermatic and Unisaw both have long standing history with table saw manufacturing and have mostly withstood the test of time.

And once you get to 2,700.00 shipped to my doorstep for the Baileigh TS, why would I not want to just wait a tad longer and save a few more dollars getting myself in the budget range (around 3,200.00) for a 3 hp Unisaw with 3 hp motor and 52” Beis fence, or a PM2000 with 3 hp motor and 50” accufence for 3,059.00 shipped at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Powermatic-1792000K-Horsepower-Accu-Fence-Extension/dp/B000BWY78I

Or maybe even better yet look into the sawstop 3 hp with 52” fence at http://www.woodcraft.com/PRODUCT/2084907/39545/SAWSTOP-3-HP-PROFESSIONAL-CABINET-SAW-WITH-52-PROFESSIONAL-TGLIDE-FENCE-SYSTEM--PCS31230TGP252.ASPX?refcode=10INGOPB&gclid=CNGCkPbttrgCFSpk7AodiAIA7Q for 3,000.00. Actually whenever I get to the point where upgrading our table saws in our shop will be in the budget, I think I am going to go for the 3 hp Sawstop.

Just wondering how a company gets the price of Baileigh woodworking equipment unless they are offering more product in some way. But if we are talking apples to apples for the most part, why go 1,200.00 more than a Grizzly. Or why pay 300 – 500 less for an inferior product when just a bit more gets you a lot more in a Sawstop.

Hope I am not offending anyone and I am not trying to, but Baileigh has placed themselves in the public eye through their marketing efforts, and that is great, but it also creates these questions in my mind. For the most part my purchases have to be justified through fiscally responsible financial logic.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net


25 replies so far

View joeyinsouthaustin's profile

joeyinsouthaustin

1080 posts in 574 days


#1 posted 276 days ago

Ask Shellyb she recently won their contest, and prolly has some personal experience with the company and machine quality??

-- Who is John Galt?

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8473 posts in 2150 days


#2 posted 276 days ago

good question…

Edit (posted too soon): most all of the Asian machines are made the same way, with some very slight differences usually based on vendor requirements and the main difference usually is the QC thresholds that each company will entertain – thats why you see the HF units cheaper than the Grizzly/Jet equivalents and why those cheaper versions usually have lesser quality castings, and have a higher rate of returns/failures then the higher cost version of same unit.

I suppose it depends – does Baileigh CQ really delivers? does it do so at a $1200 value (or whatever the difference is)?

bottom line it is up to you as the customer to choose how to spend your money – and like you said, sometimes it’s best to add a little more and get a whole lot more but not everyone sees that.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#3 posted 276 days ago

Yeah, Shelly might have some personal experience at this point since she owns a nice Baileigh table saw. I do not doubt their equipment is nice and good to even great quality, but is there enough extra quality over Grizzly to justify around a grand more.

I am not just talking about table saws, but actually across the board with regards to their equipment.

I just think Baileigh has chosen a price point difficult for a person in my similar position to justify. Or they feel the price they request is required to provide this level of product to the consumer.

I would have the same issue with a Jet or other comparable. Woodcraft has a similar Jet at around 2,450.00 but at least you get some dealer support, or at least a store front where the saw can be returned conveniently to if it is a bad apple.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View Loren's profile

Loren

6758 posts in 2149 days


#4 posted 276 days ago

They have a decent price on a 16” jointer/planer flip top
combo. It has longer beds that the comparable Grizzly
and an insert cutterhead while the Grizzly is standard.

Sellers of basic hobby shop center pieces like 10” Asian
cabinet saws are of course going to compete intensely on
price. Grizzly committed to winning that game over
a decade ago and most of their old competitors
have bowed out.

For those investing in machinery intended to make a profit for
the woodshop, like sliding panel saws, wide belts and
edgebanders, the game is different as the technology of
the machines is more complex and prone to quality control
faults. An industrial machine is only as reliable as its least
well-made components. The slider that won’t stay square
or won’t cut edges straight enough and square enough to run
through a bander is no good to a shop that needs one that
will. No comment on Baleigh, but in terms of full-sized sliders,
Grizzly’s reputation is spotty.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#5 posted 276 days ago

Loren, now I can work with that. If they are competitive on a machine of interest while beating the competition on something such as having an insert cutterhead then that is great. Don’t necessarily have to beat the competition on price as much as offer a fair market price and beat the competition on quality and or extras such as the better cutterhead. I have never actually owned a jointer myself and if I am ever in the market for one I might look into it. Thanks for the response Loren.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View crank49's profile

crank49

3245 posts in 1472 days


#6 posted 276 days ago

Interesting question.
Not just here and wood working, but almost everything any of us purchase has a perceived value to the purchaser.The question of how to control this perceived value has always intrigued me.

If Baileigh wants to market themselves as producers of top quality machines, they will shoot themselves in the foot by pricing their product too low. On the other hand, if they price too high they will not sell enough product to get any market share. All this is a real problem for marketing any product.

I sell a product in my store for $40 that I pay $20 for. The product has very little intrinsic value, it’s mostly glass. It is a very exclusive product, designed and produced by artists in Europe, promoted and marketed aggressively by the producer, ads in major magazines, controlled pricing, etc. . I could have a similar product made in China for $0.50, Some discount stores are starting to get cheaply made Chinese product and sell it at about the same price as my cost for the real thing. Now, I buy for 20, sell for 40, that’s 100% markup. They buy for .50, sell for 20, that’s 2000% markup. Is my product 200 times better than the cheap knockoff Chinese product? Not really.

I think this has happened across the entire retail spectrum. Don’t know if there is a solution. But, it is at the core of why good quality, affordable tools are not made in this country any more. The only market left for quality products expects to see a high price.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#7 posted 276 days ago

Thanks for the reply Michael. Good perspective from a retail view. I certainly can see that issue as being difficult.

I really don’t know a ton about apples to apples with Baileigh vs the competition, but I believe they are manufacturing over seas just as Grizzly and others.

I know from our shops perspective, we retail custom cabinetry out to our customers. I believe I am currently at a competitive price point while not being the cheapest out there, but not the most expensive either. I sure would love to charge 1/3 more than I currently do, but at what sacrifice would I do so. I suspect no customer would hire us if we decided to price ourselves 1/3 higher than the competition, who actually can build as good as we can.

While pricing 1/3 more than my competition would certainly be enticing since it would mean more profit, I probably would just go out of business, plus I do not want to do what I consider would be gouging my customers.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

2228 posts in 852 days


#8 posted 276 days ago

I don’t know how it works but I wish I did. It is hard to say w/ machines that have identical castings but wildly diverging prices. There are lot of things that us consumers are kept in the dark about. A lot of things w/ machinery can’t be seen like bearing quality, arbor runout, motor quality, etc., are these things that Baileigh attends to and the others do not? Or maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker? These are very valid questions that manufacturers do their best to keep us in the dark about. They would rather try get us to buy on the basis of paint color than any real knowledge about quality vs price that rational consumers seek.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#9 posted 276 days ago

“Or maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker?”

I do find that entertaining and gave me a nice laugh. :)

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View tefinn's profile

tefinn

1168 posts in 938 days


#10 posted 276 days ago

β€œOr maybe it works something like this, a machine comes through and is rejected by Baileigh, does it then get painted green and sold as Grizzly or if rejected by Grizzly then get a Central Machinery sticker?”

I don’t know if it works like this in machine manufacturing, but it does in the food industry.

My Stepfather worked for Mrs. Paul’s in Philadelphia during his youth. When the product (such as onion rings) came down the line, if QC deemed them not up to standard, the product was rebagged as a lower brand. This is common in the food industry. Most factories make multiple brands of food and the only difference in those brands (usually store brand vs. name brand) is the quality of the product.

-- Tom Finnigan - Measures? We don't need no stinking measures! - Hmm, maybe thats why my project pieces don't fit.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#11 posted 276 days ago

that is interesting, I will keep that in mind the next time I am picking up the groceries. :)

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

1447 posts in 1016 days


#12 posted 276 days ago

PurpleLev was probably the closest with his statement on QC levels. But other things exist. In China, over time you gain certain status with the government and your costs go down. You get better access to containers and more of them at a lower cost. You might start to get faster ships. Your container goes to the head of the line most of the time, eliminating dock fees. All these things add up.
If Grizzly is shipping ten times the amount that Baileigh is shipping, Grizzly will have reached a higher status that encompasses things like trucking discounts to the docks, faster “A” grade pass through on initial inspection on the Chinese side, more reliable workers with much longer tenures, etc. If they have no violations on the US side, they will get a faster pass-through and more train/trucking space to get their containers off the US docks sooner, eliminating fees. (Yes, they to charge to keep your container on the dock.)
It is doubtful that the machines are made in the exact same factories, that is rare. But it is common for designs to be the same, as some companies just buy multiple plans for a set of tools and market them. (See alibaba.com and other Asian sites with thousands of companies all doing the basic same thing.) I know that in about my tenth month in China, we achieved the “A” shipping status, which knocked a few hundred US dollars off each container. And we had settled on one trucking company that delivered all our goods to the docks, as well as brought in all our raw materials, with a good discount involved since we had paid off the owners in a new set of furniture for their houses. Turnover rates in employees dropped, and we just made the items faster and cheaper. Just the way it works…

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2401 posts in 1745 days


#13 posted 276 days ago

I browsed through the on-line catalog and was impressed by the apparent quality of their offerings. Baileigh, unless I’m very mistaken, does not manufacture anything. They distribute a line of tools selected from worldwide manufacturers, most of which are from Asian countries. They are akin to Grizzly, unlike Delta and Powermatic who designed and built their own line of tools in their own factories, at least up until a few years ago.
Without seeing or using Baileigh tools personally, I can only guess as to their quality when compared to Grizzly, General and Jet. They do look good though and I hope they prove to be better than what is now available. Their higher cost may reflect better quality. It would be interesting to find out where their tools are made.

Let me put it this way. Would you be concerned if the auto club you belonged to was sponsored by Chevy and you own a Ford.

View TravisH's profile

TravisH

157 posts in 436 days


#14 posted 275 days ago

I have never understood why a company trying to sell a product will use the exact same plans to market something. In doing so you end up with questions like the original. If they used a different fence, cut the legs different, drill a hole here or there, etc… it avoids many of these questions. But when two companies are selling a what visually appears to be a photocopy of each other minus a paint scheme and sticker orientation it makes it hard to differentiate your product (whether your product is any better or not). Ideally a list of features/specs would be sure to point out the differences to distinguish the two in not doing so end ends up putting a consumer looking at price as the difference. When I was looking at contractor saws the Grizzly and Baileigh looked as if you could swap any of the visible parts in the pictures between the two without any issue. So that left price and historical performance as the only things one could compare.

View Jerry's profile

Jerry

1955 posts in 2048 days


#15 posted 275 days ago

Travis, I agree the equipment looks similar and my geuss is one is not greater than the other except the price tag. I own a 3 hp grizzly shaper, 3hp grizzly cabinet saw, and they are great for us.

-- Jerry Nettrour, San Antonio, www.topqualitycabinets.net

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