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Shapton Pro Stones Issue

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Forum topic by hawkeyeguy83 posted 07-16-2013 08:30 PM 1227 views 1 time favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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hawkeyeguy83

7 posts in 508 days


07-16-2013 08:30 PM

Hi All,

I recently picked up a set of 1K 5K and 8K Shapton Pro Stones. Overall, I’m very happy with the stones: They cut fast, require less flattening and don’t require soaking.

I do have one issue: While they do a great job on the bevel, the 5K and 8K stones don’t seem to work very well on A2 chisel backs. I found a topic here on the forum describing what I’m experiencing. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/13793

I tried the OP’s recommendation of switching up how I move the chisel over the stone. I varied the amount of water I spray on the stone, and even tried leaving some slurry on the stone from flattening on my dia-flat plate. I’ve done some serious work on both the 5K and 8K stones, and I only get the murky finish OP describes. I should note that the backs are flat, and the stones leave a MIRROR polish on the bevel.

LIke the OP’s experience, even with the murky polish, the chisels are still hair popping sharp. I like the mirror polish on the back because I use the reflection to keep my chisel at 90 degrees to the work when chopping.

When I try to polish the backs on the finer stones, it feels like the chisel is hydroplaning over the surface. I tried working a smaller portion of the back, I get some bite and the stone develops black swarf, but still the murky polish.

Has anyone else run into this issue with their Shapton Pro’s, and if so how did you resolve the problem?


14 replies so far

View Iggles88's profile

Iggles88

246 posts in 1015 days


#1 posted 07-16-2013 09:12 PM

Im sorry i cant be of any help but im about to buy sharpening stones and i was seriously considerung the shapton pro 1000 and 8000 stones so ill be keeping an eye on this post. Other then that issue how hve the stones been?

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hawkeyeguy83

7 posts in 508 days


#2 posted 07-17-2013 03:51 AM

Hi Iggles, thanks for the reply.

Like I said, I’m happy with the stones. I wanted a set that I didn’t need to soak, as I don’t have a sink in my shop. Dragging tools down to the basement utility sink gets a little old. They leave a really nice mirror finish on the bevel. I don’t feel like the murky polish on the back is affecting the edge, everything has come off the stones plenty sharp. Also, the Shapton’s cut REALLY quickly; just a few strokes on each stone and hair actually pops off the back of my hand. They’re a lot more dense than any other stone I’ve used, so less time flattening.

Because the stones are much more dense, water just kinda pools on the surface, it doesn’t really soak into the stone. I feel like this is what is causing the murky polish on the backs of my chisels. It was most pronounced on the 1” and 3/4” chisels, less so on the narrow chisels. When I would try to polish the back of the 1” chisel on the 8K stone, it didn’t produce black swarf, which tells me it wasn’t abrading the metal. When I honed the bevel though, no problem. I think with the extra surface area, the wide chisel back just skates on top of the water. I think my next move is to use a Nagura stone to get a good abrasive slurry going.

The mirror polish on the back is more of a preference for me, I use it kind of like someone uses a couple of mirrors and bevel gauges to hand drill compound angle holes. If you don’t use a similar technique, then it’s not a big deal. I wouldn’t let it affect your decision too much.

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hawkeyeguy83

7 posts in 508 days


#3 posted 07-17-2013 04:19 AM

So, I tried the nagura stone on the 8K with my 1” chisel, and now I’m getting swarf. The polish is about the same as my old 8K norton, maybe a little more polished. I’ll hit the back with some .5 diamond paste tomorrow and see if that brings it up to a mirror polish.

One other thought for Iggles: Do you already have an intermediate stone that you like? I really like the 5K Shapton, it cuts scary fast and leaves a good edge. If you’re on a budget, I also liked the Woodstock 6K stone they sell as a 1K/6K combo on Amazon. It also cuts really quickly, but you have to soak it and it dishes out quickly for a fine grit stone.

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

176 posts in 2623 days


#4 posted 07-20-2013 12:50 PM

Waterstones are about getting blades sharp. You seem to have the sharp, so why are you disappointed?

Not all waterstones create a mirror polish, and polish is not an indicator of sharp.

There may be several reasons for the matt appearance, the most common being that you have introduced some contamination from another stone.

With Shapton Pros, try using a solution of water with a little detergent to add lubrication. This keeps the stones clean and free of stiction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View jusfine's profile

jusfine

2280 posts in 1580 days


#5 posted 07-20-2013 02:51 PM

I have the Shapton stones, have not experienced what you described here.

-- Randy "You are judged as much by the questions you ask as the answers you give..."

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1130 days


#6 posted 07-20-2013 03:11 PM

and polish is not an indicator of sharp

Wow, finally someone said it! I am glad it was Derek who did so. For years I have watched people on this forum obsess over shiny backs. As long as you have two planes meeting at a line you got sharp, shiny has nothing to do with it.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View bobasaurus's profile

bobasaurus

1259 posts in 1839 days


#7 posted 07-20-2013 04:30 PM

I have the same set of Shapton stones, along with the 15k stone, and have experienced the same thing. When flattening the backs of chisels it’s like the sharpening swarf gets stuck to the stone and the blade skipps over those areas making the process jumpy and leaving non-uniform scratches. If I constantly spray and clean/flatten the stones it helps a little, but it’s still not the easiest process. As you say, sharpening bevels on them is no problem, it’s just flattening that’s a chore. I can get close to a mirror polish on the chisel backs, but there are always scratches and murkiness remaining no matter how long I spend on each stone (the scratches seem worse if I hit the swarf-clogged areas). Do you think the nagura stone improved the process? If so I’ll pick one up as well. Diamond stones might be better suited for flattening, though I’m unsure if they can make the final polish.

Derek, the detergent idea seems good. I’ll give that a go someday. You think just a couple drops in my large water squirt bottle will do?

-- Allen, Colorado

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Iggles88

246 posts in 1015 days


#8 posted 07-20-2013 04:40 PM

Hawkers thanks for the update, no I don’t have any stones right now, I have been using a worksharp and 3m micro abrasives from tfww, I just ran out of the micro abrasives so I figured I’d go with stones since they last longer and are cheaper in the long run. I’m probably gonna go with the same stones you just bought. It’s weird I had the same exact issue with the 3m papers, I kept getting a murky finish on the back no mirror polish at all so that is also contributing to why I don’t want to go back to them, I also got very good results with the papers but I too have the preference of having my blades polished.

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

176 posts in 2623 days


#9 posted 07-20-2013 04:47 PM

Bob, just a little detergent. I add enough that the spritz on my stones is a little soapy (you can see a few bubbles).

The difference it makes is very noticeable. I would use this on the 3M papers as well – you need to carry away the swarf otherwise it will create issues.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

2528 posts in 1006 days


#10 posted 07-20-2013 04:48 PM

Do final polishing on a leather strop and that will give you the mirror finish you seek.

-- Bondo Gaposis

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Iggles88

246 posts in 1015 days


#11 posted 07-20-2013 04:50 PM

I use detergent on the 3m papers I’ve actually read that a few times before, thanks for the suggestion, I also use a leather strop. While it helps the finish going to the leather isn’t good enough to give me a mirror polish.

View hawkeyeguy83's profile

hawkeyeguy83

7 posts in 508 days


#12 posted 07-20-2013 06:48 PM

Thanks to everyone who replied!

@Bobasaurus: I use a diaflat stone for flattening, and then a nagura stone for developing a slurry on the finer stones. It definitely helped. My original issue was that when I tried to polish more than the last inch of a wider chisel, it would hydroplane across the stone, and I wouldn’t get much (if any) cutting action. As soon as I created a slurry with the nagura stone I got a lot of cutting action, and a polish similar to my norton stones.

I also noticed that swarf will get stuck to the stones much like you described. I’ll try the detergent thing that Derek recommends.

I’ve used a strop in the past, but had issues with it dubbing the edge. I use a piece of poplar that I charged with .5 micron diamond paste now, and I like it a lot better.

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bobasaurus

1259 posts in 1839 days


#13 posted 07-21-2013 06:44 AM

hawkeye, I like your wood strop idea… I’ll have to make one. The nagura stone sounds like a good idea, too. What is your go-to method for flattening the stones between uses? I have a 300/1000 combo grit diamond stone, and I use the coarse side for flattening before each sharpening session. Some people rub the stones together, but that sure seems like it would cause cross contamination of the grit.

-- Allen, Colorado

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hawkeyeguy83

7 posts in 508 days


#14 posted 07-21-2013 07:10 PM

Bobasaurus,

I bit the bullet and bought a dia-flat lapping plate. I had been using an X-Course dia-sharp plate but managed to wear all the abrasive off of it. Of course, one week after I bought the dia-flat, Amazon dropped it’s price down to $140…

I was going back and forth on whether or not to buy the dia-flat, but I was talking to Chris Schwarz at the Handworks event back in May, and he swears by his. He’s been using his every day for a couple of years and it’s still going strong.

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