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We've GOT to do something about Saw Files...and we can

7K views 95 replies 28 participants last post by  FenceFurniture 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
G'day all

I have been running a thread over here in Australia, trying to get to the bottom of why Saw Files are so lousy these days (with a very few exceptions) and why it is so hard to buy good ones that will last more than a few strokes.

My research has been exhaustive, but is not yet finished. Currently I am receiving deliveries of various files from various suppliers from all over the world. What a sorry looking bunch they are so far! These will be sent to three testers for evaluation, and it will be a "blind" test, as i will be grinding off the logos and labels. I will also be chemically sharpening a couple of duplicate files in Citric Acid to see if there is any reality to the myth that a new file can be further sharpened better than as supplied from the manufacturer.

I do NOT expect these tests to go very well at all.

And this is why - these a pics of a brand new, never used once, currently purchased file from a LEADING MANUFACTURER:

This pic shows the poor grinding of the blank:

Wood Pattern Composite material Hardwood Lumber


Which leeds to teeth being formed like this (it's supposed to be a Single Cut tooth pattern, but looks more like a Double Cut):

Grille Rectangle Grey Automotive tire Violet


That leads to potential fracture points of the edge teeth:

Automotive tire Wood Rectangle Tread Font


Do they look any good to you????

I have been in consultation with 15 of the world's top Saw guys, and they are right behind this project.

Even if it emerges that there are one or two brands that are still worthwhile (and I suspect I know which brands they will be), the files that are currently being made are NOTHING like what they used to be. The most important thing to note is that the taper has been almost removed completely from Taper Files, with only the last 10-20% of the length of the file being tapered.

So, I NEED YOUR HELP! I have started an online petition to gather as many signatures as I can. This data will be presented to a manufacturer (I have two in mind) in an effort to once more go back to the quality saw files of the not so distant past.

You can sign the petition at the following address (it takes just a few seconds, but you can leave a comment as well - please do):
PETITION TO SAW FILE MANUFACTURERS

This might seem a bit radical, but I have just recently seen the power of a petition from that site. We have a radio presenter (Shock Jock) in Australia who is a disgrace to the planet. With a petition he was taken off air (for two months), and all his sponsors deserted him. He even had to hand back his Merc within a week or Mercedes Benz would have repossessed it - true story - big national news here.

A petition is a powerful tool, but it requires your support.

We could do a bit of networking with this - if you talk about this petition on your website or blog and provide a link to it we can make it grow into something that simply cannot be ignored. You can also link it to any other forums that you frequent.

Best regards
Brett
 

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#3 ·
I'm not an aficionado so I won't comment on any technical aspects of this issue, but what I do see here is an opportunity for a group of like minded enthusiasts to take market share.

Our throw away economy has nearly run its course. Quality must come back into the market. Why insist others bring that quality? Why not take this opportunity to provide that quality and earn a profit as well?

I have not seen any discussion about the ready availability of quality saw files, but I've seen several just like this.

There is a demand. There must be a price point which that demand will support. It seems the larger companies have not reconciled the two.

Maybe look into becoming a provider yourselves? ( or maybe, our throw away culture won't support the price point needed to supply the quality files?)
 
#4 ·
Petition signed.

Yep, if I had capital to invest, I'd make my own files. This disposible society isn't working well…seen the national deficit lately? Making a quality tool takes little more natural resources, uses the same amount of electricity and man hours, produces the same amount of waste and hydrocarbons, but saves all the above since the tool lasts longer, fewer are needed to be made.
 
#5 ·
There is a much, much easier solution, and I have a cunning plan my Lords.

I just need hard data (signatures on a petition) to get it happening, I reckon. (can't tell you everything all at once now, can I?:)
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
Sure am Don. It was always going to be 58 at some stage, even if it becomes 500 (which I think would be a good number, given the niche market) so don't despair - spread the word. Email your buddies, yadda, yadda

Forums in mind are Woodnet & Sawmill Ck, and it's already on talkFestool. I had a look at some UK forums, but there is little chatter about Saw Files, so motivating them could be tricky (or nigh on impossible, given the geography :)

Any other suggestions?
 
#12 ·
Stephen, I'm not talking about big companies doing the manufacturing - I won't bother with them for a moment - it was them that got us into this situation, so I hardly see the point in rewarding poor behaviour.

If a suitable current supply can't be found (and I'm dead keen to see something from Tsubosan) then I will first be presenting the data to Liogier in France (who already make a range of "nearly there" saw files - but you won't find them on the net, or anywhere else).

If they can't be persuaded to make an extra €100k or more per year then I'll go to Honauer in Switzerland. They currently do not have a range of saw files, and are willing to custom make to a standard of excellence.

It may transpire that even if the Tsubosan's are good that another supplier is required because of language difficulties etc. To show what I mean, these are some quotes from their website:

"Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is processed in advance, the concave part bosom is deep and suitable for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals."

"It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the balance of suffering."

I am also going to research if there would be any benefit in using Chrome Steel or not. I should think the additional cost would be irrelevant, as the cost of the steel would be a very small component in such small files.
 
#13 ·
I posted this news on the petition site today:

Thank you all for signing the Saw Files Petition.

I had a very interesting talk with one of the manufacturers in France last night. They already produce a range of "nearly there" Saw files (I knew this), and really only need some adjustments & include some Double Extra Slim Files to have a TOP NOTCH RANGE.

The main thing they need to correct is the taper, and corner radius consistency on the smallest files (sometimes excellent, sometimes no good). I have developed other tools with this manufacturer, and the latest is their new range of Floats for Planes and Joinery. This will increase to a range of 12-15 Floats in the coming months.

The most important thing to come out of the conversation is that they will be very responsive to public demand (i.e. Petition Signatures).

YOU CAN HELP EVEN MORE:
post a link to this petition & give it some publicity on your Woodwork Forum(s) of choice, or your own Website/Blog.

PLEASE - SPREAD THE WORD - WE ARE STARTING TO WIN ALREADY!

Regards
Brett
 
#14 ·
Brett - I somehow missed this thread until Marv over on Woodnet pointed it out. Thank you for taking the initiative on this. I also feel very strongly about it and thoroughly support your efforts. Petition signed.

I'd like to give you a suggestion. If you have a video camera, record a 5 minute video stating your case. It will spread like wild fire on YouTube. I uploaded a video on saw sharpening 3 weeks ago and it has already had over 3000 views.

If you need any help editing/posting the video, please let me know. I'd be happy to help/post it on YouTube.

By the way, leave the UK woodworkers to me. :eek:)

Jeans Handwriting Sleeve Plant Grass


Jeans Wood Sleeve Grass Public space
 

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#17 ·
#21 ·
YanktonSD, yes that's right, but the problem is that there just ain't enough to go around - get 'em while you can. That's why we have to get something decent made from now on.

Furthermore, with the continuing resurgence in Hand Tools (of all types) people just entering the Saw File market won't be aware of the situation with the currently produced files, and will just purchase whatever they find. Then they'll start to wonder why their filing skills are so poor because they've probably just made the saw worse than it ever was.

NOS files are only for the chosen few, and supply is getting harder and harder to find. It's not easy. One of the biggest problems that I see with Ebay sellers is that they have little to no knowledge (by and large) of the incredibly intricate little tool that they are selling. It is FAR more complex than even some experts realise (and I'm not at all being critical there). It might be "just a file fer cryin' out loud", but there is a lot more to Saw Files than Engineer's files - a helluva lot more.

I doubt very much that Ebay sellers know too much about:
Single Cut
Double Cut
Cut 2
Proper Tapering (and why it's necessary)
tpi verses ppi
etc etc

This has the effect of a newbie buying some files, stuffing the saw and giving up because they think the job is stratospherically out of their skills range, when in fact it should not be.

Here's a really minute detail that surfaced only yesterday:
Old Saw Files still have faces that are untoothed for the last 10mm (1/2" close enough) of the toe, just like the current ones do. However, the edges of some the old files are toothed right to the tip. I had seen this and thought that it must have just been easier to produce them that way, with the machines of the time.

As it turns out, the corner toothing is there to whisk away any metal filings in the gullet at the start of each stroke so that everything is nice and clean for the next pass. As I say it is really fine detail, but it's all of these little things that add to make a GREAT tool, not just an average tool.

Cheers
Brett
 
#22 ·
...and apart from anything else, don't our children have a right to sharpen their own saws too? If we don't jump up and down about this now on their behalf, the skill will die with us.
 
#23 ·
^That's my fear, Andy.

I now have a dozen hand saws that I use…whenever the tempting bandsaw doesn't entice me…One already needs a touch up, and others will, too, later this year. No way am I gonna keep paying shipping just to get a saw re- sharpened when a $6 file and some practice can solve my problem.

I predict with the increasing number of baby boomers now retiring, hand tool usage will increase exponentially in the next 10 years. We NEED a manufacturer who will make high quailty files now, so the younger generation can have saw files put in their hands now to learn…And skilled ol timers to teach them.

Or do we all have to buy new miter saws with replaceable (disposable) blades?
 
#24 ·
No giving up in this guy. Ill be the next generations pied piper as Andy has been to me.

There's a growing resentment among my generation (im 33) to the disposable society of throw aways. Ive bought the disposable stuff before and now that im a bit older and wiser (not really) i wont make that mistake any more. Its gone for my lawn mower, leaf blower, string trimmer, appliances, and of course, my tools. With the price of living so high for people my age I cant afford to keep throwing things out when they break or become less sharp. I know ive got a bit of "old soul" in me and I intend on keeping those values alive, hopefully with my son.

Google cant sharpen a plane, chisel, or saw now can it?
 
#26 ·
One thing I have learnt about the internet is that 'crowdsourcing' really can work. If enough people feel strongly about something, no matter what part of the globe they're situated, there is a good chance that someone will sit up and listen, especially when you have someone as dedicated and capable as Brett at the helm.

Brett was kind enough to share some of his preliminary designs and thoughts with me privately and I have to say that I am extremely impressed.

Really it is very simple. We can either do nothing in which case we will continue to go backwards.

Monochrome photography Monochrome Circle Soil Sand


We can halfheartedly moan about the quality.

Plumbing fixture Tap Sink Fluid Wood


We can leave it to today's file manufacturers to tell us what we need.

Font Rectangle Jewellery Fashion accessory Carmine


Or we can put our heads together and make a difference.

Circle Ceiling Art Leisure Oval


Why except less than the best experience?

Wheel Tire Grass Vehicle Recreation


LET'S GIVE A CRAP!!!
 

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