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Forum topic by Cosmicsniper posted 03-07-2013 08:27 PM 1507 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


03-07-2013 08:27 PM

Topic tags/keywords: covered patio porch timber

LJs:

Spring break is coming next week, and as a teacher, it’s a great opportunity to knock out whole, large projects. Why not start YET ANOTHER project that I probably will never finish?!

Here’s a Sketchup of what I’m planning on doing…

As you can see, it’s post and beam timber construction, though the rafters will be normal 2×6 lumber, hung off a ledger/header board on the side of the house.

Now, I’ve done many sheds and famed-out structures over the years, but this is the first time I’ve ever incorporated timber construction above the sub-floor. I am hoping for some general advice, to go along with these specific questions…

- I will birdmouth the rafters to attach to the beam. I was thinking of using hangers for everything and then covering up the interior rafters with T1 siding. Alternatively, I was thinking of NOT using hangers and leaving the structure exposed…whereas I would skip the joist hangers. I live in Texas where their is both heat and tornadoes. Your thoughts?

- There is a gabled section. Of course, I need some kind of trusses there to prevent lateral pressure to the outer posts, but I wondered if instead of trusses that I could just extend the middle beam (top plate for the left wall) through to the right side? Would that, coupled with the timber truss facade, be enough to hold the lateral load? Would you incorporate trusses as well? If so, how do you utilize the T1 siding to cover the rafters in the gabled section?

- I will be using traditional joinery for the timbers, likely M&T with dowel pegs. Any thoughts you might have on making pretty joinery? I will be using the diagonal supports on the beams, they just aren’t rendered in Sketchup.

- The ground is concrete, as there is a pool. In fact, the cantilever section is over the pool. Anybody see an issue with this design? I just wanted to maximize the space and provide some shade relief to the pool…the house faces the south. The roof should block the summer sun over nearly half the pool since it will run close to the edge.

- The Sketchup shows beams running back toward the house. I show the house as brick, but in actuality only one such beam would need to go into brick as it is mostly siding in those areas. Should I put a beam next to the house at those points for support, anchor the beams to the brick somehow, or tie them into the framing beneath the siding? There is a small roofed section above the bay windows and doors that I’ll be roofing above. I thought I might tie beam into that some how? Hard to know because Im not sure how that section is framed.

I’ll do things like gutters, stone work, and finishing work later. I’ll use composition shingles to match the house and will be using deck blocks to hold the posts…I will stone-in the lower posts later.

I know it’s a lot of questions, but any thoughts would be appreciated!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com


12 replies so far

View PaulHWood's profile

PaulHWood

127 posts in 972 days


#1 posted 03-08-2013 02:32 PM

Birdmouthing- make sure you have full bearing on the cut, if you do not wwant to see connectors, you can use a simpson angle on top of the support girder, they post vallues for lateral and uplift for the angles

I would use a three point truss or collar tie. If you extend the beam as I am imagining, you will still have some movement.

The cantilever appears to be equal to the back span, this is generally not a good idea as you double the post load and cause uplift on the far connection.

You can either tie the structure to the house for gravity support or place posts. The brick is a veneer and as such should really not be used for structural support. Either way, you need to either tie into the lateral support of the house or design the posts to cantilever and carry the lateral load.

There are two things you need to deal with besides gravity and uplift: local stability and overall stability. Local stability is the gable roof framing and placing a collar tie or framing to a ridge girder relives this. Overall stability is the entire structure under a lateral load (likely wind in your case) having a path for this load. If that path is the house, then the roof diaphragm is a cantiler off the house. If it is the posts, then your diaphragm distributes the load to each post based on its tributary area as wooden diaphragms are flexible.

Probably more info than you wanted.

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#2 posted 03-08-2013 02:46 PM

Actually, Paul, that was exactly the type of information I wanted. Very much appreciated!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2928 posts in 1963 days


#3 posted 03-13-2013 04:33 PM

I would build it as a “free standing” structure and use the house wall only to restrain it from movement. In other words, all loads are vertical components. That would mean putting columns adjacent to the wall for support. The ledger would attach to the columns. I would also use Simpson strong-ties. All other recommendations made by PaulHWood also apply.

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#4 posted 04-01-2013 02:33 PM

I thought I’d give a little progress report on this project. I had a productive spring break and have been putting in the time after work on a daily basis. This is where it stands right now…

I chose a faux beam style with carriage bolts and splines at the post joints. Much of it has been painless, square, and true.

I’ll be finishing the tar paper and flashing tonight and will shingle it tomorrow. Finishing work will come later as a part of phase “two,” though once shingled I will paint the structure and run electrical for the ceiling fans.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View PaulHWood's profile

PaulHWood

127 posts in 972 days


#5 posted 04-01-2013 03:14 PM

Looking good, Just started my smaller scale project, a 12×14 cover for my grilling area. Are you planning a ceiling or leaving rafters exposed. I would really like to find some t&g pressure treated beadboard for the ceiling, but mostly find porch flooring. Alternatively, I could just use ply or hardipanel and battens.

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#6 posted 04-01-2013 03:44 PM

@Paul…I’ll probably be using a t1-11 siding for that durable, yet ship-lapped look on the ceilings. There are treated versions of that, though I’ll probably just go with the cheapest I can find and use paint. Being ceilings, I don’t feel they need to be treated as there won’t be ground contact for insect infestation…and paint covers the water-resistance concern.

Then again, I might just go with the T&G bead-board…which would certainly be easier than nailing a bunch of heavy panels. But I’ll have to determine if that will wear well over time…it does tend to buckle.

So, I guess I’m a little undecided, though I’ll likely just leave the rafters exposed for a while. But for sure, I will be putting in a ceiling at some point since I used radiant barrier OSB for the roof decking….not the most attractive look underneath!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View devann's profile

devann

1735 posts in 1412 days


#7 posted 04-01-2013 04:10 PM

Jay, I see that you didn’t rip down your rafter tails. The soffit at the rafter tails should butt into the backside of the fascia so you don’t see the edge of the soffit. The easiest fix now would be to treat your existing fascia as sub fascia and apply a taller fascia board before your apply your shingle mold and shingles.

I would use some Simpson hurricane clips at the rafter beam connection.

Your cantilever doesn’t look like you have much weight there you should be ok. The normal cantilever rule is 2xs the board inside the point of weight bearing for what is hanging out, example, you want a five foot cantilever you’ll need a fifteen foot board.

With gutters I don’t see any problem with rain water effecting the quality of the pool water. I built a trellis over a jacuzzi a couple times. It was a bad idea,when it rained it screwed up the jacuzzi water. It wasn’t my idea and I expressed my concerns but I was overruled by the P.I.C.

T&G is qiute a bit more expensive that the 4×8 sheets of T 111. When I have to soffit a large area as yours with 4×8 sheets I like to use 1×4s spaced 24” o.c. as lathe across the bottom of the joist/rafters. It does two things, you have more surface area to nail to at the edges of the sheets making it easier to hang and it smooths out some of the humps caused by the crown in the boards you are attaching to giving you a flatter looking surface.

Looks good, enjoy the shade and the pool.

-- Darrell, making more sawdust than I know what to do with

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#8 posted 04-01-2013 04:33 PM

Darrell…hee hee…you weren’t supposed to notice that! I was planning a different fascia to finish over the existing fascia. Though admittedly, I forgot about that and will need to apply that before I put on the drip edge. I was going to buy the drip edge today, so I’ll have to pick up the extra material for the fascia today as well. I was going to worry about that later, but obviously I can’t shingle everything until it’s resolved.

Thanks for the reminder….it’s these types of reasons why I’m glad I have LJs to back me up! You just saved me an enormous headache down the line!

Also, thanks for the tips on adding the lath strips prior to adding the ceiling. That’s just smart.

EDIT: I guess I could just use a temporary spacing/off-set strip for the drip edge and swap it out later? I have tons of extra 1-bys laying around. Any problems you can see with that?

BTW, the whole project will end up with a different face as some point. It will jjust be added later, unless I just feel like its not necessary at some point. In the least, the posts will be receiving stone and facing boards, if only to hide the substantial twists in the 6×6s.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View devann's profile

devann

1735 posts in 1412 days


#9 posted 04-01-2013 09:25 PM

Jay, I can’t tell by the photos of your house but a typical plumb cut tails/fascia connection would be a sub fascia, fascia, 1×2 (sometimes called shingle mold), drip edge. Sometimes I see a situation where the 1×2 is not used and the metal drip edge is applied directly to the fascia board. Not a good idea. Without the 1×2 shingle mold the bottom edge of the fascia board will rot faster.

If you’re using 1x drops as a temporary fix you’ll be making more work for yourself. Or you can apply a 2x at the top and butt the fascia beneath giving you the desired profile.

or.

I would put on my hat & face shield grab my skilsaw and make a plunge cut ripping the rafter tail to whatever height was easiest to do and then use my chisel to snap off the rip. You’ll be cutting with the grain so it should snap off fairly easily and if there is a little left it will easily clean up with the chisel. You’ll be covered in sawdust but it’ll save you the cost of buying new wood. Then you could use you 1x drops for the shingle mold and save your $$ instead of buying more fascia.

-- Darrell, making more sawdust than I know what to do with

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#10 posted 04-04-2013 02:47 PM

Thanks, Darrell. I’ve shingled 8 to 10 roofs in my life, but never knew why I was doing the shingle mold…didn’t even know what it was called.

Unfortunately, I didn’t do that. I did put a new fascia over the existing one that will hide the soffit, however. I do have a 5/8” over hang (or so) of the shingles over the drip edge and will be doing gutters along the pool side. I’ll just try to keep the fascia board painted, I guess. :)

I’ve got it half shingled now, but unfortunately got caught by some rain.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View PaulHWood's profile

PaulHWood

127 posts in 972 days


#11 posted 05-02-2013 07:00 PM

Updates with photos??

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1878 days


#12 posted 05-03-2013 02:32 AM

Hey, Paul. Thanks for asking. I have to button up some boards and clean the backyard and I can call phase 1 done. It has paint, electrical, and ceiling fans. I have new outdoor furniture that I need to move back there (it’s being used by a friend to stage his house for sale). Phase 2 involves finishing out the slab in some areas where there were flower beds, making the backyard more livable, and fixing some issues with my pool (I hate my pool). Phase 3 will be to put on a ceiling and add the Y-braces (for lack of a proper term) to all the posts.

We are refinancing the house and will have assessors out in a couple of weeks, so I’ll have a lot of things picture ready by then and will post it to my Projects.

I’m proud of it. It’s been nice to sit back there in the nice spring weather and just enjoy life.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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