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Input Needed!!! HF 2HP DC Vs. Shop Vac???

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Forum topic by DIYaholic posted 03-06-2013 02:50 PM 2284 views 0 times favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


03-06-2013 02:50 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question thein thein top hat thein baffle ducting dust collection dc hf 2hp dc

I’m in the process of designing/drawing up the plans for the 4” metal ducting layout of my 13’ X 20’ basement shop. Your input would be greatly appreciated!!!

Just the facts, Ma’am:
I have,
HF 2HP DC
Wynn Enviromental 35A274NANO Canister filter
Thein Top Hat pre-seperator
Long Ranger Remote
I’m going to “Hot Rod” the DC, by repositioning the motor/impeller, as many have done.

I also have,
shop vac (small 4.2 amp, but could go bigger), that could get a Thein Baffle Pre-Seperator and a HEPA filter, for use as DC.

I have MOST of the plan sorted out and ALL MACHINES WILL be connected to dust collection in one form or another (HF 2HP DC or Shop-Vac). For sure, Ridgid Jointer, DeWalt 735 Planer, 113 TS, 10” SCMS, DeWalt RAS and Rikon 10-325 BS will all be ducted with 4” metal ducting connected to the HF 2HP DC.

Issue #1:
I have a “Sanding Station” with a Belt/Disk sander, Ridgid OSS and Hand held ROS & Palm sander. The station is located directly inline with the intake for my Ambient Air Cleaner (literally 0” away, with the OSS 5’ away). The ducting run would be about 9’, with 4’ of flex hose.

Q1) Would you go with the HF 2HP DC or the Shop-Vac option? Why?

Here is the “Sanding Station”!
The Ambient Air Cleaner intake is at the left of the bench,at bench height.

Issue #2:
I will/could run 4” galvanized metal ducting, with the appropriate 45 degree & Y fittings, connected to the HF 2HP DC. OR, I could plumb for the Shop-Vac, with 2-1/2” PVC. The longest run will be roughly 14’ with 4’ of flex hose, going to a bench with a Jet Mortiser, Drill Press and 9” bandsaw.

Q2) Would you go with the HF 2HP DC or the Shop-Vac for this bench top application? Why?

Here is the bench top area, (temporary set up, until cabinets are made). The sander has been moved.

Thank you, in advance for your input and sage advice!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?


18 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

3951 posts in 1961 days


#1 posted 03-06-2013 03:05 PM

If you are planning to use the 2 1/2” ports on the sanders (I guess that’s what they have) I’d use the shop vac connected to them. Why? Because the vac deals with hose puny ports much better than a DC, choking it down to 2.5” or less is an invitation to be disappointed. I have no complete opinion on #2, I can’t imagine anything working all that well with a mortiser, though a big gulp with a 4” hose might be useful on the DP. I suspect the BS has the same 2.5” port you’ll use, so I’d be back to the vac for that.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View boxcarmarty's profile

boxcarmarty

13528 posts in 1828 days


#2 posted 03-06-2013 03:16 PM

Randy, I used a 10 gal Shop Vac on my OSS and my router table because they both took a 2’’ and they were across the room from my DC. The shop vac was just convenient to leave on that side of the room and hook up when needed and it worked great for this job. The problem was it couldn’t handle the constant use on a regular basis and burnt the motor up…..

-- My mind is like lighting, one brilliant flash, then its gone.....

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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#3 posted 03-06-2013 03:24 PM

Fred Hargis,
Thanks for the input!
I’m leaning towards exactly what you said. I may need to get a secound Shop-Vac, one for each application.
Again, Thanks!!!

Marty,
As I said above to Fred Hargis, I may just need to get a secound Shop-Vac.

I think I may just run with a dual DC system, utilizing both the HF 2HP DC and two Shop-Vacs. This way I can use whatever works best in any given situation!!! I have a feeling that I’ll be scouring CL, for disposable Shop-Vacs!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View crank49's profile

crank49

3981 posts in 2439 days


#4 posted 03-06-2013 03:34 PM

I have a HF 2hp DC and routinely connect it to my TS (4”) and my belt/disk sander (2-1/2”) at the same time.
The HF DC will handle a 4” and a 2-1/2”, both open at the same time quite easily. In fact, that is almost a perfect balance. Perfect would be a 4” and a 3” at the same time.

I also switch the 4” connection over to the jointer and /or the 2-1/2”connection over to the bandsaw sometimes and that works well also.

My planer blows its chips out with a internal blower. This does not work so well with a DC, especially one with a Thein separator; not enough static pressure. A Shop vac works better for me in this instance. My planer has a 2-1/2” outlet for this connection.

I think rigid piping for all these small portable sources is overkill. I just bought a 14’ premium hose for my shop vac (smooth internal) and connect it to what ever tool I’m using.

-- Michael: Hillary has a long list of accomplishments, though most DAs would refer to them as felonies.

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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#5 posted 03-06-2013 04:13 PM

crank49,
Thanks for the info regarding 4” & a secound 2-1/2” open simultaniously! That is good to know.

I hear what your saying about “overkill”! It could be my OCD, anal retentiveness or my “frustrated wanna be enginneer” personality kicking in, but I hate having to switch out hoses for the inevitable “one cut”!!! I fiqure that while I am converting my basement from a “Dungeon to Lair”, I may as well go “all out”!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

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MrRon

3927 posts in 2711 days


#6 posted 03-06-2013 05:35 PM

At one time, I had a shop vac hooked up to a separate chip separator. The chip separator was a 55 gal fiberboard drum. While vacuuming up sawdust, the hose got clogged and the vacumn caused the drum to implode. Shop vacs are pretty powerful and should work fine for your use.

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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#7 posted 03-06-2013 06:58 PM

MrRon,
It’s a good thing you didn’t have a “Flux Capacitor” connected to your system….
It could have disrupted the “Space/Time Continuim”!!! ;^)

Thanks for the heads up on the implosion! I’m not sure yet, what I will use as a container for the Shop-Vac pre-seperator. I’ll be looking on CL for suitably strong & sized containers. I would really like a 15 gallon containers as they are narrow. That will yeild a smaller footprint, in a small shop, especially since I’ll need two setups!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View JL7's profile

JL7

8427 posts in 2433 days


#8 posted 03-06-2013 10:17 PM

Hey Randy,

Whatever you ultimately decide to do, just be prepared to redo it and if you start with that in mind it’s easier to deal with later. I use 4” PVC for the collector and have a couple of Fein shop vacs, one on wheels with a dust deputy and one that hangs from the ceiling in the sanding area, with the Rockler separator on it.

When I originally ran all the 4” PVC, I really over-did it and tried to run lines to every machine. I have since re-done the pipes 5 or 6 times and have a TON of extra fittings and pipe. If you can cluster your machines as close to the collector as possible and share a flexible run here and there, you can really minimize the number of runs. I use the tapered 4” tips on the shared hoses so you can quick change…..

All the smaller sanding rigs I have use the 2-1/2” ports and I run them all off the ceiling mounted vac. Switching the hose is not that big a deal to me…......and most importantly….if you don’t have your ROS hooked up to the shop vac, you will be amazed at the difference that makes…..I also have the tool activated vacs which is really nice with the ROS. So I basically keep the ROS plugged into the vac always and just switch the hose for other stuff (OSS, Disc and Disc/Belt sanders) and use the bypass switch on the vac.

It took me a couple of years to figure out how to get all the tools in the right spots for all of this to work, but one day you will just know when you’re close! (You’re never done!).......

Have fun…..these are cool challenges with a great payoff….

-- Jeff .... Minnesota, USA

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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#9 posted 03-06-2013 10:40 PM

Jeff,
When you say: ….if you don’t have your ROS hooked up to the shop vac, you will be amazed at the difference that makes
Are you saying it DOES suck up a lot of the dust? Or just the opposite?

There really are only 3 runs to do in my shop:
1) Along wall to Bench top machines (which will proably end up being 2-1/2” PVC to pre-seperator & shop-vac. That would eliminate one of the three DC runs.)

2) Centered in middle of shop (with one drop & a Y fitting for TS & planer)

3) Along another wall with two drops, one to service BS and another drop with a Y fitting for the SCMS & RAS.

The jointer will come directly from/to the Thein.

I believe I will run a secound 2-1/2” PVC to pre-seperator/shop-vac setup for the sanding station.

Yes, The shop layout will undoubtedly change. However, as it is only 13’ X 20’, there are only a few locations that are suitable for machine placement. The plan IS to overthink this a bit, so that changes ARE easier to deal with.

Thanks for the sage advice!!!

I’ve gotta go see if the paint is done drying…..

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View JL7's profile

JL7

8427 posts in 2433 days


#10 posted 03-06-2013 10:47 PM

I mean it DOES make a big difference for the good…...Before I used the down draft table with the ROS, now I don’t even switch it on….and I should mention, I use the 1-1/2” hose on the shop vacs, which is easier to deal with….and works well.

-- Jeff .... Minnesota, USA

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DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#11 posted 03-07-2013 12:58 AM

Jeff,
Thanks for the clarrification!

My small shop vac has the 1-1/2” hose and I agree, it is much easier to wrangle!!!

I’m still going to keep the downdraft table on my shop “To-Do List”, as my palm sander does not have a dust collection port, plus their are times that hand sanding is a neccessary evil!!!

Another paint drying inspection is due….

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View gfadvm's profile

gfadvm

14940 posts in 2158 days


#12 posted 03-07-2013 05:01 AM

Randy, I have 2 Ridgid shop vacs and a grizz canister dust collector. I love my Ridgid shop vacs but not for collecting sanders. The fine dust clogs the filters really fast. The shop vac works fine on my router table and my bandsaw. The planer fills the shop vac in minutes and the jointer just slightly less so. I have 2 1/2” ports on all my tools except the OSS which has 1 1/2”. My cheapo chip separator for the DC was one of the most useful (and cheap) things I ever built. Much quicker/easier to empty than taking the bag off the DC. Hope this helps.

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

View Moron's profile

Moron

5032 posts in 3361 days


#13 posted 03-07-2013 06:05 AM

you have 2 choices

defeat your tools

or they defeat you

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View DIYaholic's profile (online now)

DIYaholic

19180 posts in 2143 days


#14 posted 03-07-2013 11:43 AM

Andy,
Thanks for the input! All tidbits of information are helpful.
As far as shop vacs for sanding stations, I will build Thein pre-seperators for them, to help relieve the strain on their filters. There are a few mods/fixtures that help improve the OSS dust extraction, that I will imploy, along with a downdraft table for hand sanding.

The real goal here is to maximize the efficiency of dust extraction, throughout the shop.

Moron,
We must defeat the tools. If we don’t ALL hope is lost. We must not allow SkyNet to take hold!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View crank49's profile

crank49

3981 posts in 2439 days


#15 posted 03-07-2013 01:38 PM

The Dust Deputy mini cyclone is a very effective accessory for a shop vac and will be more effective at removing fine dust such as you get from sanding.
Not knocking the Thein separator lids, they are very good for high volume, low pressure drop systems like the small 1 to 3 hp dust collectors.
True cyclones work on a pressure drop ratio. A shop vac has a great deal more pressure capability than the typical dust collector and the cyclone can thus be designed to catch finer dust with the greater pressure available.

-- Michael: Hillary has a long list of accomplishments, though most DAs would refer to them as felonies.

showing 1 through 15 of 18 replies

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