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Finished with Finishing

3K views 42 replies 26 participants last post by  JoeLyddon 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I swear, finishing (from sanding to the last topcoat) is the bane of my woodworking; I spend twice as much time sanding, sealcoating, staining, top coating and waxing as I do breaking down the lumber, finish cutting and assembly. I have no love for laborious sanding, either. Yes, I know I could do a simpler finish (sometimes I just sand to 220 and shellac, depending on the project), and that is my preference, but sometimes I can't.

Ok, I'm done complaining.

I guess what I'm looking for is…is there a quicker way? Sanding seems to take forever. I use a good random orbit, and only usually go 150, then 220. Is carborundum sandpaper much quicker? Just seems like it shouldn't take so long!

As for finishes…you have to wait so long to dry. Not sure there is a quicker way around that, save water-based ploys.

Any thoughts?
 
#4 ·
That's why it's taking so long. Depending on how rough the wood is start at 80 or 100grit and then all of the other grits
120,150,180 . I usually don't go past 150 or 180. Just for the record the finer you sand the less stain will penetrate into the wood . I know you may think going through each grit will take longer but it doesn't ,it's quicker.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
Pashley - Most good finishes is an art in itself and can best be achieved through experience. As you have already found out, they also take some time. You might start out with getting a good book on finishing (I am currently away from the shop or I could give you some that I have found to be useful. It sounds like you are probably preparing the raw wood OK. After sanding the raw wood I apply either a stain or a dye depending on the wood and the effect I am trying to achieve. After this, I usually rag on a coat of Seal Coat thinned with equal parts of alcohol. After letting this dry a few hours rub it down with 00 steel wool or 600 grit sandpaper (very light on the sandpaper). Remove the dust and rub with a tack cloth then begin applying (I often us a rag) successive coats of polyurethane thinned with equal parts of mineral spirits. You can apply these coats every two hours in most environments. Humidity and cold temperatures adversely affects these drying times considerably. I generally apply at least three coats but more can be applied until the desired sheen is achieved. Let these coats dry at least 8 hours and rub down with 00 steel wool or 800 to 1000 grit sandpaper. Apply finishing wax with 0000 steel wool and buff. I hope this helps. Send me a message if I can be of further assistance.

On the issue of Sander and sandpaper I mostly use the new low profile Porter Cable ROS with Klingspore Stearate Sandpaper discs.
 
#6 ·
The American Woodshop recently played a program… the last one of season 18… where he made an heirloom Clock.

He had a Finishing expert demonstrate the way he finishes most of the time…

1. Spray HVLP light seal coat of shellac 1 lb cut primarily on the hard to paint areas… curved molding, curved areas, where joints meet, end grain, etc.

2. Spray Colored Shellac changing to 2 lb cut… 3-4 light coats.

3. Top-Coat of clear Exterior 450 which is good for interior as well… Satin…

He swears by it… and likes the Exterior 450 very much and has very good luck with it.
 
#7 ·
Why is the sanding taking so long? Are your tools leaving severe marks? That's really the only reason for sanding. Some planers and most jointers leave chatter marks when surfacing a board, but that's the first place I'd start - finding a way to improve performance with those tools. Then, I'd learn to use smoothing/black planes and card scrapers, if you don't already.

As Jim said, if you use sandpaper, start at 80 grit. I'd finish to only 120 grit and would begin applying my finish right at that point. I like to apply a washcoat of dewaxed shellac firstt…lightly sanding to a smoother 220 grit or more here. This is the key to faster finishing…shellac dries really fast. And then, like Joe said, I'm a big proponent of delivering my color within the finish, not as a stain (which sometimes I do, before the washcoat, if I want the figure to pop first). The dewaxed shellac is great with TransTint dyes for coloring wood. After a couple of color coats (more coats when I want to sneak up on a color or darkness level) I then finish with a water-borne poly. Regular poly, lacquer, or shellac is sometimes used as well.
 
#8 ·
Becoming proficient with hand planing and scraping will greatly reduce the amount of sanding you have to do on flats, though the curves are still annoying (an oscillating spindle sander helps). If you have a decently good surface right off the tool, you can start sanding at a relatively high grit, like 120 or 150, then walk through to about 220 before finishing. If the wood is very course/torn/uneven and impossible to hand plane, start at 60 or 80 grit instead. Be diligent about walking through each grit to remove scratch patterns efficiently.

Finishing is always lengthy process. If I want speed, I'll use a wipe-on polyurethane so I can apply new coats every 2-3 hours, though the wiping process can be time consuming for large projects. I hear HVLP spraying finishes is quick, but the setup and cleanup overhead is there too.
 
#9 ·
I think Jim is on to something. Start with a coarser grit. Although if I don't have any surface defects (tearout) I will start with 120 grit. Then I finish up with 150 grit. On sample boards I have made, the only difference noted with 220 grit was the stain came out slightly lighter in color. That was the only difference.
Also brands of sandpaper make a huge difference. Freud and Klingspor make the most durable hook and look ROS disks. They can sand effectively for 45 minutes per disk. Compare that to 10-15 minutes with the standard yellow Norton disks (not the Norton 3X - that product is pretty good).
As far as dry times - spraying lacquer is hard to beat. You can spray two coats of lacquer on a large project in half a day.
My final recommendation - do as Tommy MacDonald does… get an Ely to sand your projects.
We could all use an Ely.
 
#10 ·
I'm with bobasaurus - I absolutely hate sanding. On many of my projects now, I don't. I started using hand planes to minimize sanding and found it was actually much quicker on most woods once I knew what I was doing. Even if isn't, an hour of sanding is torture, an hour of work with a sharp hand plane is about the most enjoyable stage of the project.
 
#11 ·
I am with the hand plane camp; hand planing with a smoother prior to assembly and touch ups with a card scraper will relegate sanding to a rare occurrence. Most of my projects never see any sandpaper. The last times I used it was to ease edges that I didn't take care of with my block plane. I hate sanding and I am glad I have a way that allows me to go without.

For finishing, I haven't used anything other than an oil finish and wax for quite a while now. I like how wood looks (guess that's why I do this) and I don't like to alter its appearance with stains and polys, and whatever else is put on. I use tung oil or boiled linseed oil and then rub wax on. That method of finishing is exactly what I like. The wood retains its color (BLO will add a little color) yet grain patterns are enhanced and highlighted. Plus, it is an easy application. Obviously if you are making stuff for others you don't have a lot of options with that outside of their wishes, but maybe you could try it out on your own projects and see if it fits your bill.

When I first started making stuff, I felt I had to stain everything and then cover it with poly or shellac and I found it is just a PITA and simply unnecessary! Now all I do is brush on oil, wipe it down after 30 minutes or so, let it dry, then rub some wax on. Done.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
People say I'm nuts, but I start with 40g on hardwood to get the patina, scratches, and anything else off. Then you get the most from the 80, 120, 150, 180, 220.
Apply finish then sand with 320.
Another top coat, sand with 600.
wipe with 1200g after its finished.

There is no way around it.

And don't use BLO unless you want to ruin a project. That stuff ruins every piece of wood I've used it on. Might as well use motor oil.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
BLO has been used for centuries. Seems to me if it is on the same par as motor oil, someone would have figured out an awful long time ago that it is not a worthy finish. Yet it is still a viable finish. Ruins wood? The box you see below is finished in the fashion I described above. It is very old chestnut and you know, it doesn't look even remotely ruined. In fact, it looks pretty decent. Maybe it is just me, but if it looks ruined, please tell me so.

The proof is in the end product.

Rectangle Wood Tableware Wood stain Flooring


Picture frame Insect Wood Rectangle Arthropod
 

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#14 ·
This also may sound silly, but start with new sandpaper too. I do this fairly often - I'll keep using the same sanding disk through the whole project and it starts to go slower and slower and slower. Just not something I think of a lot. Put a brand new one in and whooosh, I'm done!
 
#15 ·
Mike, I've restored a few planes and under the advise of many I used BLO on the handle and knob. They turned into dark wood with no grain and looked so horrible I had to refinish the entire thing. Danish oil made them look great. BLO is a good additive, but I'd never risk it again.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Finishing for me at one time used to be a horrible experience as well. You spend many countless hours on a project to only mess it up in the end. You look for the easiest and quickest way to finish only to be dissapointed even more cause the easiest and quickest is not the best.

I realized that if went into the finishing process with the same attituude as I did when building it then the outcome would be a rewarding. I bought diffrent books and read them just as I would any other process and now find myself actually enjoying the finishing. I have read through the other replys and there is a lot of excellent information there. I look at it as the finishing process start the moment I start my project. Wood selection, grain orientation, milling marks and so on. Reference material is at a arms reach just as the numerous books on construction. Then you just like your projects get better and better at it and one day you realize it was a great ride.
 
#18 ·
I see two major problems here:

The first one has been covered. Start with a coarser grit and work down through the finer ones. Until I got this through my head, I wasted a lot of time trying to remove defects or scratches with too fine a grit. Unless the surface is nearly flawless to begin with, start with 80 and go from there.

The second problem is one of mindset. If you look at the building phase as the main enchilada, and consider finishing to be just something you do after the project is complete, you will always be frustrated. As others have said, finishing is an art in itself, and you need to think of it as just as much a part of your creation as the cutting and gluing. I also find it helpful to always have another project at hand to work on while finishes are drying so I don't get bored and/or overanxious.

Since someone got the BLO war going again, I feel obligated to put my 2 cents in on that issue. When applying BLO, wipe it on very liberally, then immediately wipe off as much as you possibly can. Wait at least 24 hours, then use the topcoat of your choice, or just paste wax. I have done a number of projects with just BLO and paste wax that turned out beautifully. Anyone who claims to have "ruined" a project with BLO is doing something wrong.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
The handles I've used BLO on were rosewood and walnut sanded to 220. Maybe my BLO is just an old batch. I've sanded out to 600 and used BLO and within seconds it goes dark before I can wipe it off. This is just on a sample board, pine, cedar, oak, walnut, it turns everything dark. Does the stuff go bad, I've only had it for 6 months?
 
#21 ·
The BLO saga continues.
BLO can in fact blotch, and give a very unattractive appearance. We need to understand is not just BLO, any slow drying oil or solvent-based product would do the same.
As I type this I am looking at 40 different test samples using various oils/solvent-based products. The results are amazing, if I apply BLO, Danish oil, and pure Tung or any slow drying oil to a high tannin wood like cherry for example I can blotch it until it's just horrible. On the other hand if I applied it to hard Maple which is also very blotch prone, I get no blotching. The reason for this is oils/solvents have a reaction with the tannins in the wood.

Also have 38 samples of various oils on glass, with noted exception to Behlens rock hard, tried-and-true and a very little yellow from BLO they all dried clear. However once applied to the higher tannin woods that darken they migrated into the soft grains, which create a blotch. The slower the dry the more they migrate thus more reaction time. The issue is BLO can look great on one wood and not another.

My biggest problem with BLO is it slow to dry, not to mention most of them today are simply linseed oil with Japan dryer, they have not been heat processed. All of that said it's a weaker finish in my opinion. I can get the same results with a much more durable varnish oil, in much less time. So for me it's one of those "why bother".

On woods like Tiger Maple, quilted maple and other high figured woods it can do a nice job of enhancing the grain, however I can use shellac or a faster drying oil and get the same result and I don't have to wait a week.

Again I'm not putting BLO down, but with all the formula changes in order to meet various regulations many of these products are not the same as it used to be. In my world where I do woodworking for living, I simply don't have weeks to finish something, nor can I risk having an inferior finish. I have to use what I know works and holds up,BLO is not part of my regiment. Just my .02.
 
#23 ·
gshepherd said it better than I can. It all starts with attitude, which will improve as you hone your skills and broaden your knowledge of your basic go-to finish.

Hook and loop abrasives were referred to. This, in my opinion, is a scam perpetrated on amateurs. PSA discs are better, will last longer, cheaper, and will sand flatter. Plus, stuck to your fingers, they make final detail sanding 1/3 the work of holding onto paper and sanding.

Kindly,

Lee
 
#24 ·
Charles, I wouldn't disagree anything you said, especially the part about it not being a particularly strong finish. I don't consider it protective at all. But it was recommended to me early in my woodworking, and has given me some very attractive finishes.
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
BTW, when I do use sandpaper by hand before the finish, I use a sanding block mostly and often just some paper folded over. Sometimes I use the random orbital, but only very lightly…it's too easy to put too much pressure and create a swirl pattern and I always have to fight that tendency.

But I concur…finishing is a mindset and it starts the moment I mill my wood. I know that attention to detail in the milling will mean less prep work later. There are often times when, other than cleaning up glue squeeze-out and doing some cosmetic filling, my project will be ready to finish almost immediately after glue-up.

Again, don't obsess with the sanding/prep-work…it's only purpose is to remove tool marks. Once that's done, move on. Getting the project smooth happens after the first seal coat, by lightly sanding with high grits (sandpaper, 3M pad, or steel wool). This is why I seldom sand beyond 120 grit (180 grit on end grain) when I use sandpaper. Going higher before the finish coats are a waste of time. What you feel on the surface is dictated by the finish, not the wood. The only time I sand higher is when I don't use a finish, like when I use oil and wax.

But I think if you use scrapers and planes prior to glue-up, like I normally do, that you'll discover none of isn't so bad…and it allows you to invest in more cool tools!
 
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