Sorry

for someone who doesn’t know what to say that sure was a lot. i think friendly advise is ok but you do not need to point out every flaw in a project, this is NOT a professional site even though there are a bunch here. this is a place for people to make friends and get help for things they don’t know. being mean will only push people away. just my 2 cents.

-- Roper - master of sawdust-

At times flaws do get pointed out. Many times what we see is just aesthetics. With some types of wood I’d try to get the dark to light wood to exaggerate the seams. Sometimes I just don’t have enough wood to do more that just glue them together. More often than not I see more that enough areas I need to improve on. May be what I know to be true is nothing more than my opinion. What I’ve been trained for in cabinet doors is to glue up 4 inch strips with alternating grain for strength. Yet in furniture I want to use the widest possible boards for looks. Jump right in I’m sure we are all here to learn.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I don’t want to be mean by anymeans. But if you put something together and it’s praised are you learning that you did it right even when it’s wrong? I just thought I’d ask. I probably won’t say anything regarding anyones work, I just thought that maybe someone should in certain instances. It really isn’t my business to see that people learn how to do their work and projects. I suppose that’s what woodworking schools and books and things are for.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I think the answer to your question is quite simple. When a woodworker posts a project and specifically asks for advice, then by all means offer suggestions, respectuflly. State them in the tone in which a person who wants to learn to be a better woodworker deserves to hear. When a project doesn’t impress you and no request for advice or comments was stated, then you simply say nothing. There are plenty of members on LJ, so it isn’t necessary for every member to comment on every project. Since this is an open site to members of all skill levels, we are bound to see projects with every woodworking mistake that has ever been made. Every LJ is still entitled to have a portfolio of finished projects, regardless of their experience or skill level. Obviously they must feel some sense of accomplishment in the project or they wouldn’t have posted it.

-- - Scott "handplane"

if your having fun building thing’s then you can never be wrong.

-- Roper - master of sawdust-

That’s a tough call. As different people transition through different skill levels, I find works here that represent different steps on a journey that may or may not have the same destination as mine.

What works for me , may be elementary for some, and out of reach for others.

If you look at each project, remember that that poster may be looking for feedback, or simply an oppurtunity to share a “Hey, me too…”

For myself, I want to hear input about balance, grain orientations etc. I’m always looking for ways to improve , but I have to keep in mind that sometimes I’m severely limited by my budget, available material etc.

I guess it all depends on how the poster asks for input…

Q

-- I don't make sawdust...I produce vast quantities of "Micro Mulch."

Sometimes a question is the best way to bring it up. I think I’ve seen the same table and I think the photo is making it look worse than it is. I also wonder if the color won’t blend as the piece gets exposed to more light. I’m not sure what the best question would be. “Why don’t you buy a joiner?” just dosn’t seem to do it. In which case I just won’t say anything.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

for myself I do not comment on the negatives of projects 1) because by looking at a pic I don’t really know the look the worker was going for.2) I am learning myself so I don’t want to give bad advice. Now for my projects if you see anything that needs improvement then by all means help me out and tell me what I could do different and how to make my work better. Thats why in most of my post I will say All comments are welcome. I want and need to improve and the best way to do so is to have other woodworkers help me. just my 2 cents

-- F.Little

I agree with constructive criticsm!

Thanks for the post

Callum

-- Look great, get your TTK merchandise now! http://www.printfection.com/thetimberkid/ Check out my site http://thetimberkid.blogspot.com/

Being little better than an amateur myself I don’t necessarily have an issue with negative feedback. My time in the military taught me to have a thick skin and really listen to what someone is trying to tell me even if I don’t like it.

I believe that feedback of this type can be given if we are considerate in how we give it. On a couple of occasions I have PM’d an LJ and asked if they would mind me posting that kind of feed back. I guess it all comes down to the fact that sometimes how we say it can be just as important as what we say.

Just my 2 cents…..

-- Chris

thanks everyone. I will refrain from the negatives and look at the positives. Just so everyone knows, I welcome criticism on all my projects, and actually criticize them myself. If something is to terrible I won’t even take a picture. I think the project in question is a neat table with a good design.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I think if you don’t like something you see, just don’t comment on it. If there is a problem with a piece, that is obvious enough that you can see it in a photo, then I guarantee that the person that built the piece is aware of it. Most wood workers know of every imperfection that’s in every piece they make. And as already stated, if someone wants the piece critiqued, then pull out your 2 cents.
That’s my $0.02

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

I think most people are proud to show their accomplishments,

even if they’re not the greatest woodworkers in the world.

I don’t think they have to be told their faults, because they themselves

usually know their own faults.

I know I’m the first person who generally sees my own faults.

Just looking at some of the outstanding projects that are on this site, helps me ,

& I’m sure many others. This is a great place to learn things if you want to.

I don’t think we should criticize, unless we’re asked.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

I can see both sides. On one hand, I’m always willing to hear constructive criticism. I think most of us here are, BUT…. As has been pointed out, jocks of all skill levels post here, from professionals whose work I have no hope of ever equaling, to newbies just nailing two boards together for the first time.

If someone posts a project that is really rough looking, but they seem proud of it, I’m not going to point out any flaws. The fact that they are proud tells me they did their best with what they had to work with in terms of tools, skills, and experience. If they express that a certain aspect of the project was particularly challenging, I might offer suggestions on a better way to do something. I also know that a lot of flaws are due to people working with limited budgets for tools and lumber. (All my projects are produced with no jointer and a $100 table saw.)

I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. From looking at a project, reading what the poster says about it, and also by looking at the poster’s other projects, you can get a good idea of what level of criticism is appropriate.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I think this is a great question! But, “who like’s a critic anyways”? I think this web site is one of the BEST sites I ever seen. It’s a feel good, have fun, woodworking for all kinds of woodworkers. For instance: I think you do some really nice work. But, your carving needs alot of work. Also I could go on and on and on. But who am I to tell you if your good are not. It’s just my opinon. This is one of the best topic’s I’ve read. Thank’s for posting.

-- Dennis Zongker

I thought we worked this one over a couple of months ago and the general consensus seemed to be only to offer help when it is asked for by the poster.
I just pass over it if it’s an obvious troll for complements. (TFC)

As for my own stuff- wail away , I ‘m not sensitive about these things at all.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob, a good topic can always do with a good rehashing!

Oh, and Bob, while we’re talking… That segmented bowl you posted as your last project looks like it was turned out by a dyslexic 6-year-old. C’mon man! Get a little technique under your belt before you go posting any old thing! <eg>

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Please feel free to offer constructive criticism on all my posts. I remember a comment was posted on an earlier bowl I posted. It was pointed out that this person prefers thinner walls. I have been conscious of that on every turn since. I have offered suggestions on a few occasions. I welcome all comments, that’s one way I can learn. After all, I don’t have to always agree with opinions. Thanks for the topic.

-- My favorite piece is my last one, my best piece is my next one.

I agree with you. Sometimes you see a project that does not deserve praise but gets it anyhow. I choose not to make a comment though if the person is not asking for advice. I don’t want to turn this site into a snipefest.

-- making sawdust....

kolwdwrkr, this topic was discussed at great length some time ago. There is a lot of mixed feeling on this topic. I prefer to encourage rather than criticise. There is a vast range of expertise among the Jocks many are novices and many are tradesmen or masters in their field. I tend to back off on criticism unless opinion is sought from the project maker.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

I feel pretty comfortable with people criticizing my carving. I bet I haven’t done more then 25 carvings total. The mediums are chip carving, relief carving, and the bear caricature I have posted. Looking at my carvings I see chisel marks, fuzzy spots that should have been sanded off, etc. Maybe I was rushed through most of them, maybe at the time my tools weren’t sharp enough and I pushed to hard, etc. But I am learning. It bothers me that someone can look at my carvings and not question why they see a gouge mark or why certain spots look rough. I realize it, and will try to get better. In previous marquetry patterns I have sanded through the veneers slightly leaving glue spots, over cut and had to fill, etc. Common mistakes expected to be made. Nobody has pointed them out either. Why not? Afraid to hurt my feelings or something? Maybe that makes it okay and I can take that shortcut and not worry about cleaning the cuts up or what ever. But we know different. I think that is why the industry is so rushed all the time, and woodworking is going down the toilet. Things are “let go”. If you look into magazines like “Kitchen and Bath Ideas” you will see cabinetry that looks fine. Look close and all the door spacing is out, cheap hardware is used, etc. Because nobody cares and will buy that product.
I’m not perfect by anymeans. And it is impossible to be. But I will push myself into that direction. Unfortunately I have to criticise myself along the way. But, I will learn traditional methods of woodworking. How to do joinery like dovetails and mortise and tennon, etc, and try to stay away from pocket screws, screws and plugs, etc that is so widely conveyed as acceptable. This is why I favor David J Marks over Norm Abrahm. The furniture industry is becoming nothing more then a bunch of cheap junk because people want to take a short cut and screw something together rather then tennon, dowl, or buiscut. I really don’t know what to think about it anymore other then “Whup Pee”. I hope to continue to share my work with everyone here. I will search the forums from time to time to see if there’s a question I can answer, etc. But, I won’t be criticizing anyones work anytime soon.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Sorry that I re-opened this topic. As I stated I am new here and didn’t know this was ever discussed.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I only praise when I want to praise. Sometimes, I want to praise someone who is obviously a noob, and even though a project looks rough, they accomplished something. Other times, I’ll praise stuff for various reasons, like when I think a simple pencil holder is cool in it’s zen simplicity, or a mind-blowingly complicated piece is flawlessly carved, inlaid, or otherwise executed.

I’ll offer critical feedback if the poster asks. If the poster doesn’t solicit, I’ll usually keep quiet.

-- - Real men read directions

kolwdwrkr,

We learn through constuctive criticizim, thats how we learn to get better at what we do. It is not meant to be hurtful unless you take it the wrong way. Keep striving to be the best you can and the end result will be worth all the challenes you will face

Arianna

-- Arianna

kolwdwrkr, all the things you have said and more are the reasons i decided to go back to school and really learn how to make fine furniture. the mass production stuff is crap.

-- Roper - master of sawdust-

Roper, I’m glad you are willing and wanting to learn the craft the way it is meant to be done. That satisfies me. I hate to think that so many people are cutting corners and whipping things together. But it’s happening. I want to thank Kreg for coming out with the pocket screw jigs and machines. I have 2 pocket screw jigs and a pneumatic borer. We use it for all our general cabinetry. I frown on the people that take advantage of that equipment and through things together. Just the other day I saw a dining room table set with the aprons and arms pocket screwed to the legs. I puked in my mouth.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

lets be honest… we work with wood and most if not all of us have a streak of perfectionism to do what we love.. that being said…. I know the mistakes I have made on a project and hopefully I learn from them for the next piece. anyhow…. just my .02

Kreg pocket jogs are great! I love mine. I have seen some great projects that use pocket joinery and I just reinforced my dining room chairs as the factory joints had seen there last get together…..

I see your point…

jigs…. jigs….sorry

kolwdwrkr, now you are starting to get into another subject…. the demise of traditional standards of craftsmanship.

It’s true that a lot of things aren’t put together as well as they used to be, and that many people don’t take as much pride in their work as craftsmen once did. But deciding what type of joinery to use on a project sometimes boils down to personal opinion. Maybe you are not happy unless the drawer in that vanity is constructed with hand-cut dovetails, but not everyone has to have those same standards. It’s kind of like the hand tool vs. power tool debate. Some purists scoff at the idea of smoothing a board by any other means than hand-planing. They are welcome to their opinion, but the right power tools can sometimes do the job at least as well, and often a lot faster.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

But then you begin replacing employees with machines because oops, this machine made the job faster, and I bet there’s one that is even faster yet. Hence CNC machines were born. Now we don’t have to be good woodworkers because the machine cuts all the parts, bores them, dadoes them, etc. So, instead of craftsman we become assemblers or machinists. We’ll go this route, that’s fine. Add to the unemployment line not only the men and woman loosing their jobs to machines, but the men and woman who lose small business’s because they can’t compete. I won’t argue this any further because as you stated it’s off topic and a can of worms. What it boils down to is who is making the money, and who is getting the real joy of the art. Personally, I couldn’t give someone something that I mearly threw together with screws and glue that was supposed to be considered furniture or art. It’s not something to be proud of in my opinion.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I find this whole topic extremely interesting, I guess I missed the other one here that you all are talking about, however the girl from northeastern Ca, just has to reply to this one. When I first joined here and when I posted my projects it was the kind and wonderful people that left me so many wonderful comments that gave me the encouragement I needed. If I had started and had all the zillions of mistakes I make (and I am usually the first to point out) LOL!!! pointed out to me by all the people here I may have very well have been discouraged . By not being discouraged I feel I have grown, and I have learned and learned some more. I so very much understand your question as it does make sense. I also feel that working with wood is an art. I believe each one of us is producing art in our own way.I just happen to do scroll work and intarsia nothing at all like what you people do, but they now have lasers and scroll work can be mass produced.To me this is sad, however it is a fact of life. I also would never own a laser like that (Not that I could ever afford it LOL) I would much rather have sawdust up my nose and cuts on my fingers, but I am not everybody. And those that truly love the true art form of working with wood hopefully will still be there long after I am gone, and all we can do is try to pass on the awesomeness of this art to the next generation.
I will however from now on when I post a project I will ask for constructive criticism and I can handle that now and would and will welcome it, but I think when I first joined I may not have been able to handle that. That I believe comes with getting to know the people here. And then above and beyond that it is just your opinion (or whoever’s) . I do not know what table you are speaking of, but maybe just maybe this table was made EXACTLY the way that person wanted it made where the grain did not match. Therefore it is this persons idea of this persons art. I am all for constructive criticism but maybe it should be given via personal messaging, if anything to not discourage or embarrass the artist.
Just my opinion.
PEACE!!!

-- Allison, Northeastern Ca. Remember, Amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic!

I agree with the idea that something one might expect to be taken as a negative might be best offered off line. And then, very carefully offered. My preference is to hear questions on why something was done in a particular way, or a suggestion for how a change might be an improvement. It provides the opportunity for dialog, and dialog helps in discerning the difference between a PITA and a friend in the making.

BTW, if I had seen the Timberkid’s work when I started out in this hobby I would have quit. Nobody that good should be so young. I think I’ll go eat some sawdust. He probably does it with home made tools.

-- "Those are my principals, if you don't like them....I have others." - Groucho Marx

One rule to live by is Praise in public, admonish in private. So if you have something to critique, maybe you would feel better doing so in a PM, and do it in a constructive way. Ask a question to make the artist answer, maybe they didn’t see it in that light…

“I notice that table top has some interesting grain matching that draws attention to the seams, did you do this on purpose? “

Please feel free to leave public critiques or private ones.

Personally I have a pet peeve with people leaving empty posts, posts that are the same one-liner on every project, it gets kind of meaningless at that point. Maybe it is a post-count race or something, but when you say the same thing on every project or forum entry, what does it matter?

Just my $0.02, does anyone have change for a nickel?

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

Rich, I have to comment on your pet peeve of one-line posts, because I do it frequently.

First of all, I couldn’t care less what my post total is. If anybody thinks that number of posts is a big deal, I have no idea why.

I have been here almost 2 years. There were a lot fewer projects being posted then, and I used to try to comment on most of them. My feeling was that this was a fairly small community, and if one of my fellow members took the time to post a project, common courtesy dictated that I should give a little feedback. As the number of members and project posts grew, however, it became harder and harder to make detailed remarks and still keep up, so my comments tended to be shorter.

Now it has gotten to the point where it is virtually impossible for a person to comment on every project unless they have no other life outside of this site. I still, though, like to give a quick “Nice job” to projects that catch my eye, even when I don’t have time to get into specifics.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Charlie,

Everyone likes to do things differently. I guess I am not out to get lots of comments or anything on my projects. If someone feels moved to write a comment, so be it, I appreciate it. I post projects to give others inspiration and ideas. If they see something they like and want to make one of their own, excellent.

Just my opinion that I would rather have comments that people were moved to make than trying to comment on every project and sounding insincere. Just my take on the whole thing.

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

I would also add that my comments are influenced somewhat by the professional status of the woodworker posting the projects. I figure a pro is not looking for advice or “attaboys” from an amateur like me. :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Then I see a lot of wordy commentary that could be all summed up as ‘nice job”. I’m sorry if all my one word comments sound insincere. To me a “nice job” has value.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

kolwdwrkr,
From your profile I can see you are a passionate woodworker and strive for great things. I applaud that.

What we have on this site is a vast array of woodworking intentions. I thinks projects are posted for as many reasons as there are projects. I post because I accomplished a new woodworking skill and I want to share that with a group of people that appreciate that. I live in a very rural part of Missouri and there are not many people to share with.

The knowledge I get to further my abilities comes from forums and blogs. The project posted may be better than depicted in a photo or worse than depicted in a photo. So it is hard to evaluate a project’s quality with limited views and photo quality.

I think a PM is a better way of offering a serious critique.

As to hand made or machine made. Not many can afford the price put on quality handcrafted furniture. I can hardly afford the purchace of quality wood to make a piece.

That is my $.02.

-- Bill - If I knew GRANDKIDS were so much fun I would have had them first.

Kolwdwrkr-

As for the “constructive criticism” issue, I think enough’s been said and I skipped commenting on that issue the last time it was raised….as for the “craftsmanship” thing, I tried to ignore it, but I just can’t let this one go without a challenge…

This may not be the reality, but in this post, you come across as a snob/elitist. (”learn the craft the way it is meant to be done”, etc.)

There are varying definitions of “craftsmanship” and there’s a time and place for “just throwing things together”. I’ve seen pieces here that I thought were rather crude…but then there are folks here far enough beyond me that I’m sure they’ve found aspects (if not entire pieces) of my work crude by comparison. When I was a child I made a coat rack for my folks that I was extremely proud of…I’m sure glad they didn’t judge that piece based on the skill level of a seasoned professional.

I enjoy chiseling out dovetail pins…but don’t enjoy hand sawing. Therefore, I use a bandsaw to make the first cuts and a chisel for the rest. Perhaps to you this isn’t sufficiently “craftsman-like.” I don’t care. I do this as a hobby and derive great pleasure and satisfaction from it. Likewise on my latest effort I used a dovetail bit to craft the face frame joints. Some may consider that “insufficient” others not. It doesn’t matter to me. Had I hand chiseled them, I wouldn’t be done yet and likely would have missed spending the day on Sunday playing with my children. This is a much better balance as far as I’m concerned. And I somehow doubt that my kid’s will think significantly less of the furniture I built for them because I used a router bit instead of hammer and chisel. If they do, then I’ve somehow failed to instill my values in them.

And I also call “BS” on this assertion that CNC machines, etc. are putting people out of work.

Sure, there’s far less call for folks who are skilled at hand cutting through mortises these days. Just as there’s far less call for folks who can shoe horses or properly apply leeches. When my company (non-woodworking business) expanded our offices, we bought cheap IKEA furniture. Had the cheap stuff not been available, would we have spent 10x the amount the “quality” stuff? Doubtful. More likely, we would have purchased far less of it and cut costs elsewhere—ultimately, if furniture (or other) costs drive the cost of doing business up, you either need to cut costs (employees being one of the most expensive), increase prices, or both. The cheaper furniture is one factor enabling us to spend our capital elsewhere—which ultimately moves those woodworking jobs into other areas. You and I may feel it’s a shame that there aren’t more jobs for skilled woodworkers, but that’s capitalism and I firmly believe that this is the best way to make the most of limited resources.

Even the Stickley bros., contrary to their advertising, employed “modern machinery” to assist in the process. Without it, their furniture was simply too expensive—so only the wealthiest could own it…or no one. I also somehow doubt that the ancient Egyptians, given the option, would have never used a dovetailing jig and electric router had they been available.

-- Patrick, Chicago, IL www.TenonAndSpline.com

OK, let’s hear from the guy who first brought this up. I was wrong then, and I feel you are wrong now. If you don’t like someones project, keep it to yourself. If you see a flaw you just can’t keep to yourself, email this person with some suggestions if you have to. It will be a learning experience for them. But I do think it is a mistake to point it out in front of the whole world unless they ask you to.

I put a little different twist on it though. I mistakenly commented on false praise …. big mistake! That was my foot-in-mouth disease moment.

That’s my two cents ….......... too.

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".

Well said, Patrick.

With regards to dovetails: I shared in another post recently that I had read an article in one of major woodworking magazines about “dovetail snobbery”. The author pointed out that dovetail joints were originally used just because they were strong. Furniture builders didn’t worry about what they looked like, because they always covered them up with molding. He (the author) was convinced that these craftsmen would not have used dovetails nearly as much had they had access to modern screws, glue, and machinery.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Right on Patrick, Odie!!!

The furniture maker in 1781 used the most inovative tools that were available at the time. The furniture maker in 1822 the same etc…. Maloof and his contemporaries have electricity in their shop. Most buyers of a piece don’t care about technique, they like the appearance. The buyer likes the look, the maker likes how it was done.

Charlie, I saw the same article and it gave me a new perspective.

It is not a sin to hit the ON SWITCH.

-- Bill - If I knew GRANDKIDS were so much fun I would have had them first.

Too much reading here for me…......but maybe Martin can put a on/off button on a post for :

[] yes, go ahead, make my day, crack me down, step on my head and tell me everything I did wrong on this project.

And at that time that this button is checked we can go to town and just blast that person with criticism.

Now for the time being we can just put that note on our project ourselves.

-- http://www.twinoaksgrowers.com

Guys, I have a confusion to make now. I have never, nor do I ever plan to make a hand dovetail. There, the weight of the world is off of my shoulders at last …. SWITCH ON is right Bill.

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".

Odie, we are only as sick as our secrets. I’m glad that weight is off you now. LOL!

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

i like hand cutting dovetails,but only because i hate ear plugs.

-- Roper - master of sawdust-

“With regards to dovetails: I shared in another post recently that I had read an article in one of major woodworking magazines about “dovetail snobbery”. The author pointed out that dovetail joints were originally used just because they were strong. Furniture builders didn’t worry about what they looked like, because they always covered them up with molding.”

Not to mention that my readings indicate dovetailing was a “back shop” operation, relegated to apprentices.

-- - Real men read directions

odie, since I agree with you do I get a halo?

-- Bill - If I knew GRANDKIDS were so much fun I would have had them first.

Another small secret:
The rocking chairs I do I hand carve the seats with my grinder and carving wheel. The person who taught me uses a CNC machine to carve his seats. He says so right on his website. So yes, people are buying the finished product, not the technique.

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

I wanted to chime back in and say that my intentions are regarding the work done on this site. Most of the stuff here seems to be made for friends or family. Done as a hobby by hobbiest. Being a professional woodworker means getting paid for the work obviously, and requires the maker to find the fastest and cheapest methods of work to be able to turn a profit. I am considered a “professional” woodworker because it is what my business does. It is how I earn a living. When I made dovetail drawers for my clients in the past I used a leigh jig. After discovering a company that makes nice drawers I began ordering them. Then, I bought a dovetail machine that cuts them faster. I am trying to make money. However, I am sticking with that joinery, when I could just through some melamine or plywood drawers together with pocket screws or brads. But, as a hobbiest I break out the chisels and learn the craft. I love the work. I am not trying to be a “pretend” woodworker that just is looking for a way to hide from the wife. I intend on impressing myself, and others along the way. I want to gain the experience to be published, put in the smithsonian, and looked up to by woodworkers world wide. I want to take the time to carve my project, and watch it turn into something by my hand, instead of watching a router take the material off.
I couldn’t agree more that there is a need for technology. Why? Because foreign companies are out producing us already, and are taking our work. So to compete with them we must be able to produce faster and cheaper like they can. You start getting into Economical conversation at this point. There’s more furniture from China then there is from local builders around here. It’s much cheaper that way. However, if we as americans supported our local business’s our economy would be booming. Instead of buying everything foreign. PITTY on us. We created our own missery by outsourcing so many products overseas. This will go in one ear and out the other. “why would I buy your product when I could buy it much cheaper elsewhere?” Uh, to support our local economy, keep people employed, etc. Duh. Oh well.
Owning equipment is half the battle. As is having a shop big enough to house it and store cabinets, let alone do the work. Everything becomes a money game, thus the need to produce to make a buck. I’m not talking about this. I am talking about making something to be proud of. Something you will look at in the future and learn from. Something others will learn from. Do you think I’m going to learn anything from the guy that uses pocket screws as a main source of joinery? I don’t think so. Nor do I want to.
I’m not going to go crazy with this. There are times even as a hobbiest where you need equipment to do the work. Sometimes it’s impossible to complete a project without it. The view of the tool issue is to diverse. You need a router to make mouldings and things like that. There’s no way to make a custom scraper and hand make all your mouldings. That’s just reality. But to turn on a router is different then to turn on a milling machine. At some point, buy the freakin moulding. Follow me. Buy the drawers, buy the case goods from cab parts.com, buy the doors, etc. Then you will be a master assembler. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. But don’t call yourself a craftsman.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

I think there will be a big turn around in the future, our people will be making less money,

& the Chinese will be building factories in the USA. To take advantage of our low wages.(o;)>

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Dick you just made me feel better ;) LOL

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Nah, they will go to Canada first, they won’t have to pay for health care.

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

An interesting post indeed. It was discussed in the past, however it is beneficial to discuss again from time to time as not all 5000+ Jocks read it the first time.

Cheers

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Patrick Jaromin, You hit the nail on the head!! I am a snobish/elitist!! Thanks for recognizing it. LOL

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

bhack/Bill,

The halos are not earned … Draw it on yourself … (It’s a painted on mustache Dave) ......

Now guys let’s take a break from this and go to the Home Depot parking lot and see if we get “lucky”.

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".

Take this constructively: Before you post, check your spelling. You have multiple errors in your postings.
Communication skills, like woodworking, are learned.

-- rob

I read this thread and these words from Allison just jumped out at me….. take your time and read them…..... one word at a time….

“I would much rather have sawdust up my nose and cuts on my fingers, but I am not everybody. And those that truly love the true art form of working with wood hopefully will still be there long after I am gone, and all we can do is try to pass on the awesomeness of this art to the next generation.”

Thank you Allison
-JJ

-- Make things with wood.

Gosh dang it, who’s counting this sun of a gun as a spelling bee? Now I have to be patient and type with one finger so I can make sure I hit all the right keys. That’s a bummer.

-- ~ Inspiring those who inspire me ~

Get spell check & everyone will think you’re a genius like me.(o:)>

Take your pick!

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

WOW DICK, you sure know how to quiet an audience.

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke".

All this talk is fine and probably is constructive in one way or another but remember the bottom line is the smell of freshly sawn walnut as opposed to oak, a mortise or tenon cut the best you ever have, a paper thin shaving coming from a plane you sharpened yourself and the satisfaction and pleasure you get at standing back and admiring your work at every step towards completion. At all levels, every woodworker’s completed project is a celebration. As always, bbqKing

-- bbqKing, Lawrenceville

If someone posts photo’s of a project and doesn’t ask for criticism, then I don’t give it. If it is a new woodworker, criticism is only going to discourage them, and they will give up. After some time, they will begin to see their mistakes, and may ask for advice or help in order to hone their skills and improve. Not everyone can afford to spend thousands of dollars on fancy tools or have the luxury of a dedicated shop space. I think that every one deserves the opportunity to “show off” their projects on this site, especially considering the price we all pay to subscribe to this site. I might think differently if I paid to browse the site. How would you feel if your child posted a project on this site and several people made negative comments? I’m not saying to give praise on poor craftsmanship. Just be kind to your fellow jocks.

-- NorthWoodsMan

I’m not sure where I stand on the whole criticism issue, I generally comment on a piece only when it really speaks to me. I’m very open to hearing about issues in my work, but for the most part I think I’ve put enough caveats and disclaimers on the stuff I’ve put up here so far that there’s been no room to snipe; I’m still pretty much a beginner.

Speaking, however, to craftsmanship, I recently ran across this from a fairly famous programmer who goes by the name of _why:

when you don’t create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. your tastes only narrow & exclude people. so create.

I think I enjoy good craftsmanship, but in general I admire the effort to create and the desire to build something customized to an individual as much as I do a great joint. Unless you’re dealing at a really high level, like I do in my paying work, pushing the craft is something that gets done by leveraging technology. If you want to impress me with your craft, you’ll have to do so with something like building your own CNC router that does things better than the ones already on the market. Cutting better dovetails by hand is something you do for yourself, not for me, because looking at the finished work, I’m looking at the work not hearing the story behind it.

So when you display your work to me, to some extent you’re showing off craft, but only in that you’re doing it better than everyone else out there, what you’re really doing is showing me how well you can build something that’s specific to an application. That’s where the advance is. That’s where the envelope is being pushed.

Thus I’m going to do everything I can to encourage people who are building stuff, no matter what the level of their craft, because those are the people saying that they aren’t defining themselves by what they can buy, they’re defining themselves by how well they can tailor the world around them to their own tastes and needs.

And I think we need more people trying to make the world their own, and fewer simply adopting the mass market fad of the moment.

-- Dan Lyke, Petaluma California, http://www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke

For those concerned that ‘craftsmanship’ is on the road to extinction, one argument against that philosophy can be seen in the vast amount of interest whenever the subject is broached.

With so many passionate people taking the time to express their views , I see little chance of woodworking’craftsmanship’ (by whoever’s definition) of ever becoming a ‘lost art’ unless God quits the tree business.

Regarding Mea Maxima Culpa: while in the confessional the other day I admitted to using tree farm wood rather than natural forest wood for my projects thus not allowing my projects to reach their full ‘craftsmanship’ potential.

BTW my penance was turning off the main circuit breaker to the shop for 5 days (BHACK, are you sure SWITCH ON is not a sin).

Sawadii

-- I can so I wood but why are my learning curves always circles