Health Insurance

I have worked in Healthcare for 25 years. It is both true and exaggerated.

1. Yes, Health insurance companies go to lengths to keep from paying claims.

2. Yes people get turned away because they can’t pay. Then they get really sick and ultimately get treated. The treatment isn’t free, the institution passes the cost on to people who can pay.

3. People are driven into poverty by tragic illnesses. My father in law was a (very) small business owner. He could not afford health insurance. His wife caught pneumonia and ultimately died. He was left with a $200,000 hospital bill for a 4 week stay in an intensive care ward. His only choice was bankruptcy.

Is it as bad as the movie portrays? Probably not. But we could do better.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

Scott is right, Grumpy. We have major problems, but probably not so bad as that movie shows.

The problem as I see it is that insurance has gotten so expensive that many working people can’t or won’t pay for it. Then when they get injured or seriously ill, they do end up getting treatment, and that makes the price go up for those who are paying.

As much as I distrust the government to manage anything properly, IMO we need a system where every working person pays in through an automatic deduction from their pay, just like social security. If everyone payed into the system, there would be enough to cover everyone’s care.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Right now I pay 25 percent of my income for health insurance. I need to because of my health problems. 4 weeks ago I had my 5th heart procedure. My meds are outrageous in cost, but ins covers most with co-pays.
I am one of the lucky ones, because a lot of my costs are covered. My last procedure, 28 hours in the hospital, for one stent, 11,000 dollars. Thats without costs from 2 specialists that have not come in yet.
Could our system be better, absolutely. Is it going to get there? Not with the politicians in this country.

Thanks Chico & Charlie. We have a system down here that a lot of people complain about but at least if you are really sick ithe hospital will cost you nothing but you still pay your local GP or dentist. It does come out of everybody’s income tax though. The trick is to go in as a public patient if you can & the cost is nil.
If you want non essential treatment like cosmetic surgery or dental work you have to pay for it. If you want to choose the best specialist yourself for a heart operation or get in front of the waiting list you pay for it.
My wife & I have private health insurance to avoid the risks of not being treated ASAP. I am not denigrating the public health system over here but like anywhere if you want quick service you pay for it.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Jim, sorry to hear your plight. 25% of your income, that really sucks.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Yeah, I saw that documentary. Michael Moore exaggerates to draw attention which makes it easy for the skeptical to dismiss it. It is also hard for people to really understand where the health system in our country really stands. I have heard, anecdote of course, of better and broader coverage in European countries. But, I have seen quite a few people put up with significant health problems for lack of coverage.

We definitely need improvements in healthcare. People going bankrupt for health care shouldn’t be happening in the richest country in the world.

-- Praki, Aspiring Woodworker

$1253.00 a month. No Dentist. No Eye Coverage. On a retired income.

Lew

Praki & Lew, looks like we all have some issues with health systems.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Working Pre-Hospital and having worked in the E.R. and a Doctor’s office, I can say that the health care system is most definately broken. I have seen people think that the E.R. is used for primary care and the Primary Care Doctors send patients to the E.R. for things that they just don’t want to deal with.

Another reason that people use the E.R. for primary care is that there is a law that says that any person that comes to the E.R. is subject to a medical screening and treatment for life threating emergencies, regaurdless of race, religion, creed, color, or ability to pay.

Peoples opions of what EMS is for is so screwed up its sad. I can share stories that will make you laugh and cry, like the time that I was called out at 2 am for “my left testicle is bigger than my right”, when asked how long this had been going on and he said 3-4 months. I asked how much he had to drink and he said about a case.

I was called out for a “tick bite” and when we got there I found out the tick bite was 2 weeks old and he thought he has “Q fever”. I asked where he had heard of “Q” fever and he said that he read it in a book. I asked him if he had been to Africa lately, and he advised me that he had never been out of the state (he was in his 40’s). He was rather shocked to learn that “Q” fever is an Africa bush disease…..by the way he had about a 12 pack to drink if not more.

These are just 2 stories of the hundreds if not thousands that are taking place everyday in the U.S. health care system.

-- Adrian ..... The 11th Commandment...."Thou Shalt Not Buy A Wobble Dado"

Interesting stories Adrian. Never a dull moment in your job.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Adrian hit the nail on the head when he said “people use the E.R. for primary care is that there is a law that says that any person that comes to the E.R. is subject to a medical screening and treatment for life threating emergencies, regaurdless of race, religion, creed, color, or ability to pay”. Physicians offices often send to the E.R. not only because they just don’t want to deal with it, they send them because the person has no insurance and can’t afford to pay for the treatment. So people end up in the Emergency room simply because it ends up being their only choice.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

I think the system is as Adrian said…broken. Docs having to add unnecessary tests so that visits are covered under ‘Diagnostic Related Groupings”, insurance company nurses and bean counters practicing medicine in pre-certifying hospitalization or denying same before a M.D. has even seen the patient. Cures that take place miraculously on the day your insurance for that visit run out. New mothers and babies discharged before either are ready to assume activities of daily living. Ninety percent of vital signs and bedside care handled by unlicensed health care workers (two weeks of medical terminology classes and knowing which end to stick the thermometer in does not give a person the tools to provide safe or adequate care). It’s a mess. I don’t know what the answer is, but it does seem a shame that the US, one of the world’s richest nations, doesn’t have better provisions for the care of it’s citizens or it’s soldiers.

Micheal Moore does play loose with some of the facts and over-dramatizes, but if it shines a light and causes discussion to ensue then I think he has done his job.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

Hi all,

As has been said, it is very expensive to have, and inconvenient to use.

But in spite of that, with the cost of a medical treatment being what it is, it’s almost a necessity to put up with it if you can afford it.

I almost think of it as a monthly payment plan, for the pleasure of getting sick anytime I want.

Not having studied the situation I don’t have any answers on how to fix it, but I do know if the government gets involved, we’re screwed.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

The high cost of health care can be summed up in two words- Government; Lawyers

I seen the movie and it had(has) me ready to jump the pond. You don’t want to be sick in the US. Hopefully our next president fixes the system. If you haven’t seen the movie it should be must see. The part that got me is everyone in the movie had insurance. very sad.

The poorest person in France will love longer then the richest in the US on average.

“Not having studied the situation I don’t have any answers on how to fix it, but I do know if the government gets involved, we’re screwed.”

I’m not sure. It is working overseas. The doctors actually get bonuses on how healthy there patients are. They get bonuses for lowering blood pressure and getting you to stop smoking to mention a few. The doctors don’t make as much but they are not hurting either. Plus they actually care how you feel. The system we have now is so bad I see no other option. The problem is taxes would go up and no one is every cool with that. I can understand your feelings to. That is why we have looked at moving overseas. This country won’t fix the problem if it means more taxes. Seems crazy that people would rather die at a younger age then pay more taxes. But when our government waste so much of our money it is hard to give them more to play with.

Calling ‘Sicko’ a documentary is like calling a butcher a master carpenter. Sure they both cut things but .. I’ll stop there. How about calling it a doc-U-drama

-- "so much to learn and so little time"..

If our government leaders had to have the same types of insurance as the people, you would see fast and furious changes being made. The problem being is that our leaders vote for their health care and get the best coverage that the ciitizens can afford. Our leaders pay nothing towards their health care.
Politicians= foxes in charge of the hen house.

Please keep the goverment out it. Please no involuntary contribution. It will go to the General Fund and be a mess like Social Security.

Seems like all programs run by the government is full of fraud. The Free Market may be an answer. I don’t know. Just keep congress out of it. Most of them are lawyers not economist.

-- Bill - If I knew GRANDKIDS were so much fun I would have had them first.

It seems like in this country, when things get real bad, our only salvation is the government.

I don’t think you’ll ever see those millionaire insurance executives give up their wealth,

& share it with us poor underlings.

The American Medical association fought real hard against Medicare,

but you don’t see too many poor Doctors, because of it.

Although I think most doctors deserve every penny they earn.

What would our Senior citizens be doing now, without Medicare?

This problem has been dragging our country down for many years now.

If not our Government, which is supposed to be us!

Who else is going to help?

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Ben Franklin said that we need a revolution every 200 years, because all governments become stale and corrupt after 200 years.

How long has it been?

I think our present society is smart enough to fix our problems.

We just have to elect someone who really cares about us, & not themselves.

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

...my mom broke her leg it cost us $15,000.00 for one hours work before she even showed up at the hospital. That is just the EMTs. Whom I’m sure did not get more than $25.00 an hour. The system is stale and corrupt!!!!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I’m a nurse and I work for a medium sized, small city, “privately owned’ hospital. We refuse no one. Even the guy I just discharged who came in dehydrated and covered with lice. No one.

The biggest problem in our healthcare system today is the insurance companies. They make the rules and if you don’t follow them to the letter, they won’t pay. They decide what meds you’ll take…Oh! You thought it was the doctors job to prescribe meds??? The doctors get their prescriptions over-ridden daily by the insurance companies! “I want Lunesta”...but Nooo! You haven’t tried Sonata yet! “But Sonata is weak crap…I want Lunesta”. NOOOO! You have to try Ambein first! “But, I don’t want Ambein…It’s a narcotic”. Well then you’ll have to pay for the Lunesta yourself!

Lunesta and Ambein cost the same. One’s a narcotic, the other isn’t. Ambein when mixed with painkillers causes people to do weird stuff…like go for a midnite drive in the nude!

Insurance companies get a cut of the meds they allow. Mine doesn’t allow Lunesta. Oh and when I asked to “talk with those that make the decisions” they said NOOOO! WE CAN’T ALLOW THAT!

It’s BS. I’m just a little woodworker. All I can do is vote and watch what happens.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Dadoo, those decision-makers might have medical degrees in some cases, but they are still just bean counters.

I know an older lady who recently became concerned with belly swelling. A standard exam and blood workup showed nothing, so her doctor wanted an MRI. The insurance company refused to pay. Luckily she could affort to foot the bill on her own, and it turned out to be lymphoma!

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Whew, I think I started something here Jocks.
Dadoo, that is incredible that insurance companies decide on the medication.
Maybe a lumberjock should stand for President & fix the health system. Someone like Odie. LOL
So many of you work in the industry & see the problems. It must be frustrating that you can’t do anything about it.
Thanks for filling in the gaps. Like a lot of you I thought the doco was over the top but as you point out there are a lot of truths in it.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

It’s expensive (that’s due to greed and capitalism gone amuck) but still better than Canada with their socialized medicine. If you’re really sick in Canada, you’re better off coming to the US to have surgery and paying out of pocket. Otherwise, you get in line for tests, you then get in line for doctors and surgery schedules, then you’re automatically put in line for the undertaker because you’re dead before you’re treated.

-- Sir Robert

We have socialized medicine here in CA, it’s called County Hospitals, they are horrible, illegals and poor people need somewhere to go, I would rather take my chances on a witch DR than go to one Really!
I don’t like to pay but would rather pay than go to one of those places.

PS. I am afraid Josh is right!!

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Barb was at our doctor on Tuesday, & he showed her a letter from our insurance co.

doctor that had viewed her medical records, but has never seen her in person.

He told our doctor that she should change one of her medications to a cheaper one ,

& also told him she should take this one medication,

every other day instead of once a day.

Our doctor scoffed at it, & said he’ll keep on

doing what has been working for her.

I thought I had a pretty good plan, up until last Tuesday

-- -** You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream ****************** Dick, & Barb Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Dick , You have a good DR, some would just go along!
Always know what med you are taking and why, and ALWAYS check with a GOOD Pharmacist if you are taking more than one, My mother almost died from drug reactions from 3 different DR’s.
A good Pharmacist knows alot more about medications than most DR’s,
Dr’s have Pharmicutical Co’s pushing drugs and giving free samples scratching at there doors every day.

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

Let’s hear from some one from the UK and Canada where they have “free healthcare”.

The movie Sicko picks and chooses extreems to get his pre-concieved notions across ignoring all else.

Moore does that with every film he has made. EVERY single one is a distortion of the facts.

Nothing is perfect and it needs a lot of work.

“I’m from the government and I’m here to help” Scares me more than anything. Universal health care
by the government is a joke. You want someone as clueless as the government rationing out health care?

-- It's better to have people think you're stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Like I said, I really hate the thought of a government run system. But I’m also tired of this crazy system we’ve got now where some of us pay more because others can’t or don’t want to pay anything. I don’t have a problem with helping out the poor, but what kills me is the working people who pay 0% of their income for health care, yet still get emergency care when they need it because the law says they can’t be turned away. I have an ex- sister-in-law who made six figures selling real estate one year, but had no health insurance because she thought she’d rather take her chances.

I like the freedom of privatized health care, but anyone who is not covered by private insurance should be subject to a mandatory withholding tax to pay for that emergency coverage the law mandates.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I have been shopping for insurance for my wife and I and its not cheap. But, as was said earlier, you cant afford to be without it.
For those of you who want the government to manage our health care, let me tell you this little story.
My wife manages a small coffee shop cafe, there is a waitress there that has three children all from different men. The oldest got sick and she took him to the ER, the nurse/admitter there asked if she had insurance, the waitress said no. The nurse asked if the child was of mexican decent? She said no, but the youngest of her three, his father is spanish, the nurse said ok, we will put all three children on a government plan and you wont have to pay anything for their care. Now this is the same waitress that because of “Earned Income Credit”, she gets back more money on her tax return, then she payed in. (Not including the so called stimulis check they sent out).AND has the nerve to brag to everyone about her new tattoo that she got with her tax money. So do you really want the government totally incharge of the heath care system ???

Off of my soap box now.

-- MISSION FURNITURE-My mission is to build furniture

“they come to the USA for the best medical care in the world.”

The states ranked 37th according to the World health Organization.

“but I gladly pay five hundred and seventy nine dollars a month for health care considering the alternatives.”

570×12 months = 6948×50 years= $347,400

That is a lot of money to pay out over 50 years.

You are actually paying more a month for health insurance then I pay for my house.

Okay, obviously I’ve been away too long. I thought this was a WOODWORKING website. Geez! But, since the string is predicated on one of my favorite [wink-wink] docudrama queen’s films, I guess I’ve two pennies to throw down too.

First, as has been mentioned, Mr. Moore is NOT a documentarian, he is an unabashed PROVOCATEUR! He has more in common with Joseph Goebbels than say Ken Burns who is a genuine documentarian. That being cleared up, let’s move along. The REAL bad guys in all of this are the insurance companies [easy answer], the healthcare system of for-profit hospitals and the American worker him/herself. That’s right folks, “We have met the enemy and they are us!”

The insurance industry screwed and tattoed us all years ago by “divide and conquer” tactics. Insurance is regulated on a state by state basis. This is an advantage for the insurance industry NOT the states. The industry understood a long time ago that for them to maintain one of the most impressive profit models in history that if ever they had to take-it-on-the-nose in some states they could easily make up the difference on the rest. Therefore we do not NEED the govt to take care of us in any other way than to take on the insurance industry and regulate them at the FEDERAL level. This however will NOT take place as the insurance industry IS the most powerful lobby in D.C. All others are amateurs when compared to them.

For-Profit hospitals should be ILLEGAL! It’s a moral conundrum and it shouldn’t be. No one should profit off the suffering of others. This is a fundamental aspect that again should be dealt with and will most likely NEVER change as their lobby isn’t likely to go along with it either.

Now, the “they are us” statement means this. We Americans have become a “what about us” society that is enamored with entitlements and other socialized govt programs. We take pride in our individualism yet at the same time we keep grumbling for more! A big part of the problem with the system as it stands today is that the govt is already dispensing HALF of all healthcare dollars spent in the U.S. Medicare and Medicaid are the culprits and ANYONE who wants socialized medicine in this country needs to triangulate all of this info before signing away their right to choose. There are more holes in these two delivery systems than any amount of duct tape and plumber’s putty can ever plug thanks to a cumbersome system of codification and redundancies put in place to prevent fraud. If you think the govt could do a better job then please by all means check the record of the VA or any other govt run hospital before you decide. i doubt ANY of you’ll take what you find and say to yourself, “Yepper, that’s for me, break me off a piece of that!” I don’t think so.

Now, what qualifications does jcees have to make such a tirade? I hold an insurance license [not active], my wife is a veteran healthcare professional and I have a brother with many lifelong health problems that lives with us. I am 51 years old and I pay $325 per month for 100% coverage past my deductible [yes it’s high] and no one in my immediate family has ever received substandard healthcare because I won’t allow it! I have personally fired two doctors in my life and won’t hesitate to do it again if I believe that I am in ANY way getting short sheeted with regards to me or my family’s health. The bottom line in this is that EVERYONE has to be their own best advocate. Your health is ultimately YOUR responsibility.

Now I’ve just hit the high spots, there are more and deeper issues with all three of the problem areas I defined but this response has already gotten out of hand. It’s 5am and I have to wake up in few minutes to make the coffee and get ready for work. [dang it]

Granted, the system needs fixing BUT socialized medicine in this country will only squish the middle class harder as we are the ones that foot the bill for everything already. The poor have it made [except for being poor] in this country and the rich… well… Where do you think Michael Moore’s net worth puts him? Just a thought.

always,
J.C.

P.S. Don’t get me started on the welfare system.

-- "Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein

Sorry, I’m not buying into yet ANOTHER government entitlement program that will bankrupt the next generation, as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security have done to New York State. Yet another step towards socialism.

If you don’t earn a check, we’ll give you one.
If you don’t have a home, we’ll subsidize one.
If you didn’t plan for your retirement income, we’ll give you one.
If you chose to have babies out of wedlock, stay home, we’ll give you more money for each one you have.
If you lose your job, we’ll send you a check.
If you bought a bigger house than you could have possibly afforded, and your lending bank collapses, we’ll rescue you.

On, and on and on.

More and more and more social programs that serve only to keep people dependent on the government – and not on them selves.

General Motors pays out over a billion dollars a year – for the healthcare of no longer productive employees. Stupid on their part. They should have never promised people that.

Is healthcare wildly expensive? Oh yes, it is – but I really don’t want the government (the rest of us) paying even more for the healthcare of others. Sorry.

-- -Be Blessed!, Patrick

In response to Miket who asked for a Canadian opinion… I did see the movie and it made me appreciate our healthcare more. I wouldn’t go as far as to call it “free” however. As far as I understand we pay a heck of a lot more taxes here in Canada than do those in the States. So in the back of my mind I’m aware of the fact that I’m forking out cash for everyone that doesn’t take care of themselves and uses the system unnecessarilly. I think we should have a hybrid system that makes people who smoke, for example, pay for any related illnesses which they need treatment for.

Access to health care is a right for everyone, not just the rich.

Yes up here in Canada there is some issues. The ER has become a place where people go instead of the family Dr., mainly because of a doctor shortage. (a lot of the doctors trained here go south for the big bucks)
Yes there is sometimes waits, but nothing like you guys in the US seem to think. If you need it right away, you will get it. Need out weighs first to come…...

Up here in the great white north, we do pay a lot more taxes than our southern friends. That is health care related. The system is not perfect, but I would not want to be with-out it. Are we socialist? Maybe we are. But as I see it, health care is a right to everyone. Not just someone that can afford it. Dealing with insurance companies scares the crap out of me.

I don’t think anyone takes Michael Moore to serious,... in any of his movies….... but there is always some basis of fact.

-- Brian's Table Top Toys http://home.mountaincable.net/~bgraham/

Skimming through this thread, I feel very lucky to live in Canada. I have not had much experience with health care, but I have had a major operation, along with regular check-ups, and it is/was covered by the goverment/taxes. I would hate to think where I would(n’t?) be right now without the system. Yes, dental and GP aren’t covered by the goverment/taxes, but insurance is $2/day for both.

The reality is there are probably some restrictions, costs, downfalls etc. but in my rosy teenage world I don’t know/care about them. Yet.

“Is healthcare wildly expensive? Oh yes, it is – but I really don’t want the government (the rest of us) paying even more for the healthcare of others. Sorry.”

Are you sure you would end up paying more? There is two groups to look at here. There is those with no insurance and free insurance who pay nothing, and there is a group of people that pay for insurance. The second group is already covering for the other group. To me the question is who do you want charging you? I would rather take my chances on something different then the current setup. It may fail, but would it be no worse then what we have now. The stats don’t lie. We are not very healthy as a group.

I for one am glad that we don’t live in a society where you could get sick and die because you can’t afford to pay for Healthcare. I would like to keep it that way too. The only way I can think of to do that is to have everyone share in the cost.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

...but we do live in a society where you can get sick and die because you can’t affort health care.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

It seems kind of foolish that when people get really sick, and the care gets really expensive, they can get it. But people with no insurance can rarely get good routine care and health maintenance that would have prevented the big expense later.

It’s like telling people, “Well, if you can’t afford regular oil changes for your car, you’ll just have to do without. But don’t worry…if you engine blows up we’ll pay for the total overhaul.”

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Let’s do the math

We have over 4 Million illegals here in California. This does not include their illegal anchor babies, which adds hundreds of thousands more to the total. We have had over 85 emergency rooms close in the past 12 years because of these invaders. With the closing of so many emergency rooms and the addition of more illegals entering our state we have even more pressure put on the rest of the emergency rooms. As time goes on, we will see a dramatic rise in the number of emergency room closures and the eventual failure of our health system. This state spends and extreme amount of TAX dollars on these and other socialist programs to ensure that the Illegals get treated for anything and everything. We have a huge deficit ( over 18 Billion and rising ). What is the mantra from our great legislature? Let’s just raise the taxes higher. Granted, this is just one of the major problems with the rising cost of health care in this country, but it is one of that has a simple solution. Force the illegals to leave. It is very Simple to understand why the health and other systems are broken with these outrageous numbers of illegals.
The drug companies are able to extend their patents for many more years on their most expensive drugs and this adds a tremendous amount to the high cost of drugs. Also, if our universities and colleges are helping in the study of new drugs, we MUST have huge reductions in the price of those particular drugs because tax dollars were used to research and develop them.
Lawyers. What can I say. John Edwards is despised by the people from his own state because of the costs put on the backs of the people from his lawsuits against the medical profession. He made his fortune this way.
One more important reason is that, here in California, the great legislature passed a law many years ago forcing all health insurers accept HIV positive people. That is a major drain on the system.
Enough for now. I think you get the drift.
Just my 2 cts worth. With inflation I should say 5 cts.

-- Oldworld, Fair Oaks, Ca

Dennis, you are correct, people do indeed die but not because they can’t afford it. In this country it’s more likely that the person won’t seek help before it’s too late. Too many folks of meager or no means are easily intimidated out of asking the proper questions. They just plain give up before finding a healthcare provider that will take them. But people die needlessly in EVERY healthcare system. And it is a direct result of human activity. Wherever two or more are gathered, there will be a committee meeting the second Thursday of every month at the nearest IHOP. If it were only that easy.

So shall we dance a little closer to the welfare state? Would you make us all servants to a different and more sinister machine? Would your share in the benefits be more than offset by the amount you are forced to pay? What kind of doctors will we engender with that sort of system? Not everyone in a lab coat is altruistic. Would the state foster innovation? Check out how your govt is doing in other areas before you give them anything else to muck up.

I believe that the essential question is, HOW do we proceed? Do we adopt a Euro-socialist model and thereby abdicate our personal responsibility for the comfort and assurances of the state? Do we DEMAND reforms? Regulate insurance companies? Nationalize drug companies? Amputate ambulance chasers? Garrote greedy stockholders? Set term limits for ALL offices of govt? Exile Smokers? How do we affect positive outcomes for the illiterate, the illegal immigrant with no command of English? How much are we willing to fork over of our hard earned $$$ every week regardless of whether we want to or not?

Marx my words, the socialist model will punish as many as it helps. Think not? Check the VA’s peacetime record. That’s when things deteriorate. NEVER during wartime. Check with a wounded vet two years after peace ensues. See how his benefits are holding up before you toss the ballast out with the bilge.

always,
J.C.

-- "Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein

JC here is what intimidates me. I walk into a doctors office and it cost me $175.00 for 10 minutes. This is just to talk to a nurse. That is $1050.00 an hour. This is a nonprofit hospital. I’m a sick guy with a sick family. To get insurance I’d have to pay more that I make a month. (Heart Condition) So I kinda take this personal. I hear all the socialist/capitalist republican/democratic finger pointing and I just tend to think this is part of the problem. When I watch my wife suffer because I can’t afford the medication I get very pissed off. I really don’t care what you think about socialism THIS SYSTEM HERE IS BROKEN AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT IT!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I haven’t read all of the discussions posted here but I’ll just add my 2cents
Although our healthcare system needs a few tweaks here and there (some of them bigger than others) overall I am so glad that we have what we have.
I don’t seek medical help very often but when I need it, it is there and I won’t be broke the rest of my life because of an illness.

I do believe that people (in our western society) need to look at how they use the health care. People going for help because of sniffles really cause trouble in so many ways. We take the care for granted and thus abuse it.
The medical people also need to look at how they use it.
My uncle, who is 86 years old is in the hospital for something and while in there they’ve ran a bundle of tests to see if he has osteoporosis. Um.. he’s 86. He already needs a walker. Do we really need to spend all that $$$ on these tests?

Anyway…. health care: everyone deserves health care. Everyone.
And just because you “deserve” it doesn’t mean you should abuse it. We need to start “toughing up” a bit and letting our body do some work on its own before we seek intervention.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

All I have to say is Live better work union!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As to all others that just want to kick the poor into the gutter, well don’t cry when they are crawing into your bedroom window at night!!!!!!!!
I am sorry but I HAVE COMPASSION for my fellow man, whatever race religon or AGI !!
MsDebbieP ”everyone deserves health care” YES they do!!!, We have enough problems on this planet, enough to worry about, with a little comon sense we could at least eliminate that one.
O & B 08.

-- MARK IN BOB, So. CAL

The US health care system is the worst there is…that is, except for all the rest. We are not a socialist country and able bodied people should work to earn money to purchase goods and services including insurance.

Can you think of one example of government services that are provided efficiently and economically?

Me either.

Denny bell

http://www.bellforestproducts.com/

-- Denny, Upper Michigan

Personally, I think the lawyers are to blame. Your doctor made a mistake? Well, we’ll just sue him/her into oblivion, and when we’re finished with them, we’ll take on the hospital, the insurance company and anybody else that gets in our cross-hairs. Yes, accidents happen and the patient should be taken care of, but not for the millions that the lawyers are asking for. How many doctors have we lost due to the high cost of malpractice insurance? Medical treatment is a crapshoot – has been since the beginning of time – so learn to deal with it. People get sick and die, it’s mother nature’s way of controlling the population.

-- last night I played a blank tape at full volume - the mime next door went nuts!

I agree with pashley…......he gave some of the best examples.
With those bits of information you can make up your own mind on whats wrong.

When the health industry can charge for a one or two hour visit what takes me months, or over a year to earn, THAT is the problem. I recently had minor surgery and it figured out that the procedure cost ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNRED FIFTY TWO times more than what I make. Perspective….. multiply your yearly wages times that amout and see what you come up with! Is their time really worth that much???
And its all legal!!!

Assume for a minute that insurance is totally out of the picture. Now look at what your medical bills would be. Who could afford it??

I get a little excited that I have to work and pay for my medical expenses, and for others expenses who have never been gainfully employed in their life. And NO, this is not an exception either as some of you may think. One of the worst people I know has never worked, has 4 children from 3 fathers, one died from sids(both those parents are convicted drug users and dealers…hmmm), one child has serious gastronomic problems which led to hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses,(mother was still a drug user), and when our government paid for her to leave the state to get medical help/surgery, and many surgerys later with a $900 bill for the mom to be paid, SHE BITCHED!! She figured that the government screwed her over, and ‘How can they expect me to pay that?’ THATS EXACTLY WHAT SHE SAID, AND MEANT IT!!! Guess who shes voting for president. We held a benefit for the childs expenses. She bought a car and one of the Dads bought a new gold necklace and a cell phone.

Bottom line———-The whole medical industry; the doctors, insurance companies, hospitols, lawyers, etc.,
LEGALISED, ORGANISED CRIME!! Doesnt our government have laws against that?????

Okay, I’m done now. Think wood, think wood, think wood. There, I’m okay now!!! :-)

Revolution? I’ll be on the front line.

-- Got Wood?

lol, thats awsome celtic ! medical treatment is a crapshoot ! i near fell of my chair laughing ! what came to mind was a guy near here a few years ago who needed a foot amputated , sure enough the dr. promply cut off the wrong foot . the way i see it he had some really good odds going in after all he only had 2 feet . i think that makes it right at 50- 50 . that would make it at the worst 2 amputations at the very most ( which is what he ended up with ) . suppose it was a finger he needed taken off , he could end up rolling the dice as much as 9 times ! lol as a follow up to the story you should have seen the smile on the guys face when he came wheeling out of the courtroom in his wheelchair after being awarded 250 thousand dollars ! now im confident this old black guy couldnt count all the way to 250.000 especially since he only had fingers to work with ! as for the dr. well he lost his job at tampa hospital he went to rolling the dice at another hospital somewhere here in fl. and i might add he made another bad roll there as well when he had two women in a room and prescribed ones meds to the other and near killed her ! where that dr. is now i have no idea but i have no problem wishing hes in your town and not mine ! i prefer a good dr. over a lucky one ! lol however your original statement is true obscene lawsuits are a huge problem .

Great subject Grumpy. Alot of good responses here. Locally the ER will accept anyone with or without the ability to pay. There are private hospitals that can turn you away if you can’t prove the ability to pay but I am not aware of any within 50 miles of here.

Michael Moore the reality junkie that hypes his stories to get an audience. I watched maybe 10 minutes of one of his so called documentaries and turned the channel. He loves to play on peoples ignorance. Sorry just my 2 cents worth.

-- Jerry, Measure 10 times cut once. Set in the foothills of the Smokey's

Dennis, I feel you, brother! And what you’re talking about is ALSO an abuse perpetrated by the insurance companies. Ratings run counter to the impetus of insurance [to spread the cost of the few over the many]. Rather it is a mechanism by which they insure profits and unfortunately at the expense of folks who need it most. The system is flawed on ALL levels BUT it isn’t necessarily broken. The fact that the system exists at all is a miracle of civilization. Canada is a nation of only 33 million people. The U.S. has over 300 million give or take a few million undocumented aliens. Knowing this, here’s my Twelve Step Program for reforming our present healthcare system.

Understanding that any meaningful reform has to be systemic.

1. Eliminate for-profit hospitals and hospital corporations. Hospitals should be like franchises of ”the system” and not profit centers.
2. Eliminate medical malpractice lawsuits except for the most egregious examples. [this would eliminate the ambulance chasers and the 1-800-ASK-GARYs and maybe all those damn billboards]
3. Start an MIB to identify and eliminate bad healthcare professionals especially doctors who can move about the country leaving bodies in every state. The insurance companies fully fund and support the current MIB in order to keep patient fraud in check. [this one should surely be a duh].
4. Restrict insurance companies from denying claims. Put the burden of proof on them in order to deny a claim and that they should pay ALL legitimate claims within 30 days. [no more instant denials and recovery is their burden]
5. Make healthcare and necessary related services 100% tax deductible regardless of income [another duh that’s overdue]
6. Eliminate Medicare and reform Medicaid. Transition those on Medicare back into the marketplace to expand the pool of payers and thereby lower premiums overall. This might be the most impossible one to do as we know what happens when an ”entitlement” is threatened… [i.e. govt jobs]
7. Establish uniformity of care and procedures across the country. A test or procedure should cost the same ANYWHERE it is offered. [another duh]
8. RE-Establish the patient/doctor relationship with regards to payment. Everyone should be able to talk $$$ with their Doc. Also, make the doc’s remuneration public, the clinic’s fees posted and the hospital’s like a menu. [I’ll take the tri-plex IV, please. That way you won’t have to stick me AGAIN AND AGAIN, oh, and I’ll bring my own aspirin, thank you.]
9. Eliminate the disparities between private, institutional and insurer fees for service. [this is one of the more egregious aspects of our present system and should already be illegal]
10. Punish abusers, especially repeat offenders of the system. [make accountable; individual and corporate] Also, take care of illegals but send the bill to their native land. Make this a part of any and all trade agreements [and add the cost of collections too].
11. With the money regained via the elimination of Medicare, establish mobile wellness and diagnostic clinics. If buses can be converted to Blood-Mobiles and Book-Mobiles why not Care-Mobiles specifically for the hinterlands?
12. Make EVERYONE accountable for their own health. If we’re going to eliminate insurer “ratings” we have to allow the insurer to at least arbitrate claims that are questionable. Again, the burden is shifted to the insurer, but a patient must understand that their health is their responsibility [if they smoke or otherwise engage in dangerous activities then their deductibles should be adjusted accordingly, you gotta pay if you wanna play]

This is my short list. It addresses everyone involved in healthcare and is still by no means a comprehensive one. It’s just the most obvious I can identify being married to a provider, the brother of a sickly man and a late-in-life asthma sufferer [never been a smoker]. I know what it’s like to be denied coverage BUT I’ve never accepted being denied treatment. My body is the only one I came with so I have to do right by it while I’m in it. That reminds me, I really should lose a few pounds. Hmmmm…..

-- "Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein

Wow this did stir the possum. I guess it’s true to say there are lots of issues with heath systems as pointed out by Michael Moore but somewhat exaggerated. An interesting topic & thanks for the input. I think I won’t grumble so much about the health system down under.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2016.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers’ earnings since 2000.

One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious.

Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.18 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.

The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.

I only see the health problem in this country getting worse. Look at the youth. They look more like mushrooms then kids. Hospitals and doctors are only part of the problem. We need to also look at all the crap we allow kids to graze on.

My oldest is a 6th grader. They actually have pop machines in the school for these kids. Everyone knows this is wrong, but the schools make a pretty penny off these machines so they don’t care. They have also dropped gym to save money. Our kids are getting fat and our schools add pop to there diet and remove any physical activity. Not very smart if you ask me.

mrtrim, you point out the obvious tradgedy of amputating the wrong appendage, and that’s fine. I agree with you that the patient needs compensating and the doctor needs punishment. What I’m trying to point out is the person who goes to the doctor with an illness that comes with some basic symptoms and the doctor puts him/her through 21 tests and still can’t decide what’s wrong. Those lab tests aren’t cheap and so many of them give a result that could be any one of a number of illnesses. Well, it could be this, so we’ll give you this medicine, but if it doesn’t help we’ll try something else. Perhaps crapshoot wasn’t the best of words – maybe medicine is not always an exact science would be better? I do stand by my original statement the the lawers are to blame!

-- last night I played a blank tape at full volume - the mime next door went nuts!

celtic , im a guy who can find humor in a heart attack , and was not dixcounting your comment . your choice of wording just hit my funny bone ! lol i cant agree that lawyers are to blame . but they certainly share in it .
how about the judges and juries ? theres plenty of blame to go around . i read thru this thread and see fingers pointed at just about everyone from people like myself and dennis because we cant afford health ins. to micheal moore to dr.s hospitals and ins. cos just about everyone except where it belongs , ourselves .
until we standup as a people and and in great numbers and demand something better we wont get it .
some believe they can votr thier way to a better system . i dont think so . i do think the system will change in the next couple years and everyone will have health ins. from what i see on the news they are already trying out a new idea in massachusetts . it seems ins. is now mandatory and everyone has to have it . my guess is that thats exactly what we will soon see as healthcare reform . my thoughts are this premiums in mass. will likely go down . because everyone is buying it ?? no because the ins. co. will consider it an investment to lower rates there . theres nothing they would like more than for ins. to become mandatory acroos the country . how many times does it have to be proven to us that the words mandatory and cheaper do not work with each other . a lot of people are bashing moores film , i have not seen it and never heard of it until last week . i was surfing the channels looking for somethig to watch that wouldnt make me barf , that can be a challenge at times , suddenly theres moores face . im thinking whatever this is could be interesting because this guy stirs up more shit than a pig farmer . turns out it opra . along with him she had others that i cant positively identify as i missed the introductions . from what i gathered one woman was representing the healthins. industry and was clearly there to dicount moore and in my view failed miserably . another guy was from germany and had moved from there to canada . i guess his purpose was to give input on social healthcare . his veiw on canadas system was about the same as ms. deb has posted . if you need a bandaid youll likley be waiting . if you have a heart attack youll get immediate care . there was a woman dr. there whos job for quite a while was working for an ins. co reviewing claims and aproving or deneying . she had quit the job as eventully it made her physically ill thinking about some of the care she had to deny to people that she knew in her heart as a dr. that they really should have . at the end of the show opra ask moore what his point of the film was . his answer was pretty much the same as jacees is saying , do we as a people want our healthcare decided on a profit and loss viewpoint ? his example was this what if your house was on fire and you called the fire dept and they said gee whizz your all the way across town . that may sound a little over the top but look at it this way , the police are already starting to demand payment inn some cases such as the run away bride in atlanta why cant the fire dept charge you if they have to come to put a fire out ? is this in our future ? as a taxpayer all my life ive paid ive paid my share for fire service . my house has never caught fire so why should i pay as much as the guy down the street that has had 3 fires at his house in the last six years, because he smokes in bed ? so my point is the issue is very complex and the govt. cant solve it , after all they cant even solve the simple problems .

my personal veiw on healthcare is this ,
ive worked my entire life and paid my taxes
im a war veteran who has fought and bled for my country
ive done very little time in prison lol
whever times have been good ive given to various charities ( mostly fallen fire and police ) and red cross ect.
that said i cant find any way possible ive ever been a burden on our system
in my view i help pay healthcare for the following ,
some of the wealthiest americans ,
most of the poorest americans,
all of the active military ,
an exploding no. of ex military ( since health care is gotten so high a lot of vets are turning to the v a )
all the in carcerated prisoners
illeagle aliens
thats the top of my head list . i somehow cant feel selfish to think i should have healthcare for myself .
thank you my friends and if you read all this you need a hobby ! lol have a great day

I’m originally from Canada (definitely moving back for retirement!) and have experience with Canadian health care in both BC and Ontario. It can be pretty bad in Ontario. My brother died from hospital neglect and my sister probably would have if my niece (with a very strong personality) hadn’t been working in the same hospital. In BC, on the other hand, I have seen none of these problems. The difference? In Ontario everything is free. In BC, there is a $35/month/family charge (at least there was 15 years ago). That seems to be just enough to make a BIG difference.

As far as the cost of health care goes here in the US, even though you have to pay over $1000/hr to see a Dr, you’d be surprised at how little the Dr’s make. All the money goes to liability insurance. The problem has as much to do with the screwed up legal system as the greedy and corrupt medical system. Since I’ve moved here I’ve come to the conclusion that the US is the only country in the world where you can get paid for your own stupidity. Like the lady who had a corporation and worked out of her own house. She was too lazy to change the light bulb to the basement, broke her leg falling down the stairs, sued herself and won!

My own recent experience: About 3 months ago I screwed up my knees. The Dr said I needed 6 weeks of PT. At the end of 2 weeks I was starting to get quite a bit better, but then the insurance company decided I only needed 2 weeks, so they cut me off. Within a week I was almost as bad as when I started. It’s now been ~3 months and I haven’t been able to do much more than putter in my shop since it happened – because of the insurance company.

I agree that the Sicko movie exaggerates things some. But the bottom line is, it’s all true.

Thankfully, I don’t get sick as often as I used to. Up until about 2 years ago I was to the Dr. or in the hospital 2 or 3 times a year for one thing or another. Now… arthritis, psoriasis, depression, ADHD, numbing nerve problem in both elbows, all gone. Tremors, cholesterol, insomnia, brain fog, bad memory, all substantially reduced and steadily improving. 2 years ago I started studying nutrition and found I can cure all those so called “incurable” conditions simply by eating the right food. I used to be on 4 prescriptions (yes I had the same fights with the insurance company about that too) to take care of my “incurable” conditions, now I take none.

Here’s the solution to the health care problem: Don’t get sick!! Not possible you say? I recommend every one watch a video called ”Food Matters”. You can get it at FoodMatters.tv. You can watch it online for $5 (if you have broadband) or you can get the DVD for $30 (I have nothing to do with these people, I was just impressed with the vid). I highly, highly, HIGHLY recommend this video. I can’t stress that enough. Trust me, this will be the best thing you have ever done for your self or your family. The video touches on a multitude of health topics and and how to use simple food to heal yourself. Believe me, it’s easy, 100% safe (unlike all the drugs being pushed on us) and well worth it.

-- Michael R. Harvey - Brewster, NY - RusticElementArt.com - SpaceAware.org - AnConn.com

WOW, Grumpy… You’ve sure stirred the pot… lol.

-- As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. (Proverbs 27:17)