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Electrician Question: EDIT: 5 hp 19.5 amp Balder, can I use 12-2 and double pull 20 amp breaker

3K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  OggieOglethorpe 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am now going to be in a pinch to get our 5 hp DC set up. I just sold our 2 hp Grizzly that has been our go to pillar for a long time now. I figured the sell of that DC would help offset some set up cost for the Delta Cyclone.

The DC will be set up in a 20X20 Storage next to our shop so will not be the main shop area at all.

So my primary questions surround:

1. I want to use the Long Ranger Multigate System: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LRGATE5.html
But from what I have read the system runs a 3 hp DC and we have a 5 hp DC. Also I want to run 6" gates and the system seems to only have up to 5" gates.

So I am considering doing something on my own with 6" gates.

I am struggling with this some since I am not an electrician. Through some online research I have learned that I might be able to fabricate my own system using low voltage switches and wire and some type of control box with a relay, maybe a 12v over 220v relay. Most of this is foreign language to me. I plan to pay a visit to Grainger tomorrow to see if they can help me with this design.

Is this something I can do with some shop made blast gates made with melamine or do I need to purchase metal blast gates.

Any direction regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jerry
 
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#4 ·
Loren I'm thinking your right. For the price it is a very good value. For around 70.00 you get the main power unit, 100'of wire and one gate. Each extra gate is only an extra 17.00 or 18.00 or so. I can get the 5" gates and just reduce to 5" at my Eyes. Thanks.
 
#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
What you want to do will work, but it will be some effort to set it up. The relay coil will be switched by the sensors you'll have to install on the gates, that also means there will be low voltage wiring running from each gate to somewhere. Let me suggest: instead of the blast gate approach, use a similar relay, but one with a 120V coil. Then power that coil on/off with a cheap lamp switch remote ($10-$15). The gives you the advantage of a remote that once it fails, you put in another $10-$15 lamp switch and you're up and running. The relays are fairly industrial strength and will last a very long time (true of the 12V coils as well). I have the lamp switch remote set up on my 5 HP DC, and have used it now for about 5 years. I've replaced the remote twice, but since I keep a spare in the shop it's not a big deal. This setup is also cheaper than the purchased remotes (only slightly) but much longer lived. I used a LR for about 9 years before I dropped the remote once too often onto the concrete….they are very well made but I still like the relay better…..besides it handles much larger motors easily.
 
#8 ·
jerry ….... i'd go with the ivac pro units as shown here:

http://www.ivacswitch.com/default.action?itemid=57

the pro communicates wirelessly between the tools and DC units, and they also offer a relay (contactor) that will accomodate dust collectors larger than your 5hp. when the dust generating tool is activated, the DC is activated and their new blast gates also activate automatically. the reverse happens when the dust generating tool is deactivated.

i use the ivac switch and it does everything i ask it to do. the products, and more importantly, the people @ mbright, are absolutely first rate.
 
#9 ·
Toolie, thanks for that source. It sure looks great but I believe it is out of my current price range.

So I have another question: Where are some of the best locations online to purchase DC items. I am getting ready to purchase at www.pennstateind.com but want to comparison shop a little more for items such as Wye connectors and also flex hose.

Another question:

I am going to wire up the 5 hp 19.5 amp Baldor motor, am I ok to go with a 20 amp double pull and 12-2 wire?

Thanks for the assistance, Jerry
 
#10 ·
You would have to use 12-3 at a minimum, 220 uses two hot leads and a neutral. I would recommend going with 10-3 as 20A is the recommended upper limit on #12 wire and it's always best to leave yourself some headroom. I'm guessing the circuit will be fused at something higher than 20A (hopefully) and you gotta run the wire based on that, not the load you will be putting on it.
 
#11 ·
regarding the wire size, a 20A circuit (either 110v or 220v), usually sized to 80% of capacity, would be right on the edge of its ability to support that motor. any electrician worth his salt would, i believe, counsel that a 30A circuit and 10-2 wire be used.
 
#13 ·
Gosh, thanks for all the good advice.

I am not an electrician and even I sort of felt 10-2 with 30 amp breaker. But at Home Depot the clerk was sure I needed the 20 amp breaker and 12-2 wire.

I want to be safe then sorry. I think going with the 10-2 with 30 amp might pose some minimal risk to burning motor up if any major resistance issues, which would cost me 400.00. But going 12-2 and 20 amp might worst case cause a fire and cost me far more then 400.00.

Is that pretty much what we are looking at? Thanks
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
When deciding what amp breaker to use, the right thing to do is to consult the spec sheet/manual for the dust collection system you purchased (or other power tool). They'll tell you the minimum circuit requirements. After you know the breaker size then you determine the wire gauge from the breaker size, not the running amperage draw of the tool, which will be lower than the start amperage.

For example, I purchased the G0562Z 3 hp dust collector. The manual states the minimum circuit size is 20 amps. I know that a 20 amp circuit requires 12 gauge wire. There are charts to tell you how much current different wire sizes are capable of safely (following code) handling. So I need a 20 amp 220v circuit for my DC.

This also applies only if I have a dedicated circuit for this machine. Should I want to run two machines on one circuit, such as my table saw and dust collector, then I would need a larger circuit to handle the dual load.
 
#16 ·
not sure if you are talking about the wiring for the DC or the control circuit. The 5 hp DC will draw 28 amps on 220 volts. That would require #10 wire. The control Wiring for the Dc could be telephone wire as it only needs to carry the current to close the relay and the contacts of the relay take the current of the DC motor.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
Oh yeah, I am referring to providing power to the 5 hp motor. I am going to go with 30 amp breaker at the box and 10-2. I rather a little over then under. Don't need any fires.

Oh, and I purchased a lot of my DC supplies tonight online. I don't want to get ahead of myself until I get the products and start installation. I will say this much, I was able to get a great deal for the 5 hp Delta Cyclone DC, however, it looks like I am going to have around 800.00 in all of the duct and other accessories. AND, I was given 50' of heavy gauge 6" duct that I am using for my main trunk. So to think I am still spending 800.00 sort of shocks me. So yes, I know this stuff is all expensive.

In a nutshell, I purchased the Long Ranger Multigate system, 6 extra 6" metal blast gates, 6 extra switches, 6" DC hose, 24 gauge round pipe duct for drops, various connectors, wire, breakers, etc… So counting the cost of the DC, all in I should be at around 1000.00 +/-.

And after this is done, I will still have 8 more machines to add down the road. For right now I am going to hook up 2 table saws, a shaper, our dual drum sander, edge sander, planer and one of our drill presses.

Did I mention, I am actually looking to achieve as much of a dustless environment as I can. Not sure just how achievable this will be but I intend on having everything connected to our DC including Miter saws and RAS.

Also, I plan to start with DC to the cabinet portion of the table saw, but in the near future I intend on mounting overhead DC with 4" pipe. Maybe next year I can call all of this a finished product and my shop will look like that clean shop that looks unused :)
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
I finally get to help with an electrician Question (spent 13 years in the trade)

According to the National Electric Code, you must figure circuits at 80% of the calculated load. That means for a:

19.5A / 0.8 = 24.375A requiring a 30A breaker minimum. That is a minimum wire size of #10AWG. (assuming a length of 200 ft or less)

for 28A referenced by REO
28/.8 = 35A or a 40A breaker. That is #6AWG…though at 220v a 5hp motor should only draw 17A

746Watts per hp X 5hp = 3730Watts
3730W / 220V = 16.95A
16.95 / 0.8 = 21A minimum (though on this one Id fudge it a little and use a 20A circuit….should be ok.)
 
#21 ·
Topa…thankyou….I forgot about the 125% rule for motors.

Silly me, Im a bit rusty!.....maybe VERY rusty. Been pushing buttons and turning valves too long I guess. :-( I miss "the trade"

19.5A (assumed) X 125% = 24.9A minimum. ie 30A
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
I had lots of problems with the 220v non-magnetic (not relay equipped) Long Ranger and my 3HP JDS CK-3100 cyclone. The printed rating was overly generous.

My machine drew 70+ amps during spool up, smoothly dropping to about 18 in approximately 5 seconds. The remote would trip it's internal 25A breaker about 3 seconds after starting. Long Ranger provided several new breakers before accepting my unit as a trade on the magnetic relay version.

It is normal for a breaker to allow several times it's rated current during surges. The trip rating involves not only a set amp rating, but a time the current needs to exceed the rating before tripping.
 
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