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Forum topic by ScottStewart posted 09-08-2012 05:48 PM 1707 views 3 times favorited 27 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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ScottStewart

109 posts in 788 days


09-08-2012 05:48 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

I am having bad problems with my Jet JJ-6CSX jointer. I am getting horrible tapers when attempting to face joint. I ruined a good piece of wood, then went back to check the jointer setup. After shimming and testing in an endless cycle, I now show my beds to be less than 4 thou out of coplanar (I can get a 3 thou feeler gauge under in some spots but never a 4). I used a 50” Veritas straightedge and HF feeler gauges. I reset my knives using the John White Jig and have my outfeed set so that when my straightedge is on, I can hear the knife touch the bar, but the bar doesn’t move.

The bed is 46”, I am attempting to get a good edge on a 48” board. I am starting with my push block close to the end of the board and getting pressure on the outfeed table as soon as I hvae 8-10” jointed. The only technique video I can find is the wood whisperer. If anyone out there has any other technique videos, I would be glad to have a link.

According to the accumulated wisdom of Google, I should have this thing tuned, but something is horribly wrong. The best example I had was starting with a borg 2×6 that was pretty decent. by the time I had a straightedge on the board, the leading end was down to 1”.

If anyone has any ideas at all I would be thrilled. Thanks for your time.

Scott

Edit: Just tried setting knives 2 thou above outfeed. Problem just as bad if not worse.


27 replies so far

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1025 days


#1 posted 09-08-2012 06:33 PM

Scott, sorry to hear you’re having so much trouble. The jointer can be pretty tricky to learn. Your technique sounds good. I assume you’ve checked your knives in three places (front, middle, back) they are uniform.

Can you give us some idea what the cuts look like? When you take a pass on that 2×4, and the blades are cutting the entire surface, what’s wrong with the surface? Bow in the middle? One end high? a twist along the length? Might help diagnose.

Have you tried a shorter board for practice? Do you get a good edge with a shorter board, just not a long board, or do you have problems with all boards?

I’m sure the folks here can help you work through this.

-- John

View Grandpa's profile

Grandpa

3133 posts in 1331 days


#2 posted 09-08-2012 06:43 PM

I agree with jmos. I personally have had problems with the knives not being set the same depth on each end. When I got that corrected things went much better. When the jointer cuts the full length of the board the cut should be perfect unless you are able to put a tremendous amount of pressure on that board. Many beginners try to “push the board straight with pressure”. The board should be pushed against the fence and gently fed across the cutter and off the outfeed table. Technique is difficult to explain and for some difficult to learn.
Is this a recent change or has the problem always been there. How long have your owned this jointer? .002 above the outfeed table should be just right. That is .002 front back and center on all the knives…?

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ScottStewart

109 posts in 788 days


#3 posted 09-08-2012 06:59 PM

I have been checking front edge and back edge, but not so much in the middle. The problem that I am primarily getting is that I am getting a severe taper from left to right. By the time I have a straightedge on 2x stock, I am down to 1 inch thickness on the left end (as you face jointer). Make sense? I will try to post a picture of the next attempt. I seem to be having less trouble on shorter boards than longer boards.

Thanks for the replies.

Scott

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Grandpa

3133 posts in 1331 days


#4 posted 09-08-2012 07:09 PM

front and back on the knives should be adequate. If the knive have a worn or ground dip in th emiddle them there are other problems. This sound like you could be putting pressure on the board and maybe rocking it some.

View GarageWoodworks's profile

GarageWoodworks

432 posts in 812 days


#5 posted 09-08-2012 08:53 PM

You need to make absolutely sure that you have found the top dead center of your cutter head. The best way to do this is to use a dial indicator on a magnetic base (Woodcraft $20). You want your knives to be at the same height as the outfeed table at top-dead-center (TDC). Don’t rely on the “sliding ruler technique” to find TDC.

Here is a video demonstrating how I find top dead center and set the knives. Let me know if you have questions.:

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/video.php?video=v10

-- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/GarageWoodworks?feature=guide

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1025 days


#6 posted 09-08-2012 09:23 PM

Scott, I’d still like to hear a bit more about what you are seeing as you go. What is the defect that is causing you to have to go back over the same face over and over.

By the way, here’s a link to an article about jointers tapering http://www.newwoodworker.com/jntrtaprs.html
If you keep running the stock feeding in the same direction, it will taper the board. Been there, done that.

Again, what’s wrong with the first couple of cuts? Also, how much are you removing per pass? It will take an awful long time to remove +1” of material if your taking a reasonable cut.

-- John

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ScottStewart

109 posts in 788 days


#7 posted 09-08-2012 09:33 PM

Jmos, I am taking about 1/16” per cut. I am continuing to make cuts because I am not getting any wood taken off from the trailing end. It worked out to be about 1/2 inch rather than a full inch off.

Garagewoodworks, thanks for the video. I appreciate you showing how to find TDC on the cutterhead rather than the knife. Difficulty finding that was a primary reason I didn’t set the knives after adjustment with a dial indicator this time. If I continue to have issues, that will be my next adjustment.

I seem to have had a better try on the last go round. I moved my hands further apart with the pushsticks, and didn’t move both hands to the outfeed table as early. Going to get another couple 2×6’s at the blue borg and try again. Will report it tonight if I get it done before the football game I want to watch starts.

Thank you all so much for the help, I am both appreciative and amazed at people’s willingness to help.

Scott

View teejk's profile

teejk

1215 posts in 1340 days


#8 posted 09-08-2012 10:38 PM

Scott…I think Jmos was trying to tell you the flip the board end for end. Running in the same direction each pass is how they make toothpicks I think.

Flipping might mean more tearout at 1/8” cut…on a 6” jointer I’ve found that 1/8 is too much regardless of wood (I think you can usually tell by listening to the motor). So take less bite and make more passes. The machine is running anyway and you are only talking about a few minutes more.

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jmos

681 posts in 1025 days


#9 posted 09-08-2012 11:38 PM

Thanks teejk, that’s exactly what I was getting at; flipping end for end; guess I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I usually flip every two or three passes.

I usually go for less than 1/16” removal a pass, unless there is some defect I’m trying to remove. Have you tried a shorter board? Same issues? Better? Worse?

If your not removing material from the end of the board it sounds like your either letting the front end of the board lift the back end (or the tables aren’t actually coplanar and are pulling the end of the board up), or the knives are actually lower than the outfeed table. Since you seem very aware of keeping pressure on the outfeed side, and you’ve checked them for coplanar, the knives would be my guess.

I would suggest trying a much shallower cut and see how it goes. You could also try to bump up the outfeed table a touch and see if that helps.

-- John

View GarageWoodworks's profile

GarageWoodworks

432 posts in 812 days


#10 posted 09-09-2012 12:28 AM

@Scott – One more thing. I am not exactly sure what you are doing when you refer to “After shimming and testing in an endless cycle,...” What are you shimming? I’m not 100% sure I understand how you are using your feeler gauges.

Before you go crazy trying to determine if it is your technique that is causing the problem (trial and error = waste of time) you need to first rule out your jointer setup. Again, I would make sure that your knives are flush with the outfeed table at Top-Dead-Center using the technique in my video above.

IMHO I would not touch the outfeed table (more unnecessary trial and error). I have owned my jointer for close to 8 years and I’ve never adjusted my outfeed table. If you adjust your knives as I described you will never need to as well.

If you don’t already own a dial indicator and magnetic base, now is the time to get one. You will use it constantly around the shop.

Good luck.

-- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/GarageWoodworks?feature=guide

View Dusty56's profile

Dusty56

11659 posts in 2344 days


#11 posted 09-09-2012 01:28 AM

” flipping end for end” ???

Pay attention to grain direction to avoid tearout.

-- I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't be more uncertain!

View PocketsFullOfSawdust's profile

PocketsFullOfSawdust

8 posts in 751 days


#12 posted 09-09-2012 01:41 AM

Hold on guys. Are you talking about jointing both faces of the board (flipping the board end for end)?? The jointer is not intended for that. The jointer only gets one side flat with no reference to the other face. Once you have a flat face, you can run it through the planer and get the other side parallel to the jointed face. Even if a board is relatively flat running both faces on the jointer can give you two flat surfaces that are not parallel. When you are flattening a face, do not use the fence only let the board rest on the bed.

-- "I think that if I did not work with wood, my life would be a hollow emptiness." Jonas Wainwright

View Dusty56's profile

Dusty56

11659 posts in 2344 days


#13 posted 09-09-2012 01:50 AM

I am assuming that he meant he was sending the board thru in one direction and then reversing it (same face).
Seems like it would compound the problem if there was any twist ,etc., in the board.

-- I'm absolutely positive that I couldn't be more uncertain!

View ScottStewart's profile

ScottStewart

109 posts in 788 days


#14 posted 09-09-2012 04:23 AM

Lets see, let me try to make things more plain (or try to get things in a plane)....

I am going to put in lots of boring detain in case I am missing something simple…

I have had the Jointer (bought used) about 6 months. I got it home and completely cleaned and waxed the jointer. Dovetailed ways/gibs got white lithium grease, everything else got waxed. I had to place one shim to raise the outfeed table and make everything coplanar. I have used it on a couple of small projects and been very happy.

I had gotten into the bad habit of lifting the end of the jointer up so I could throw the levers on the horrible mobile base I have. I recently needed to joint a 4ft long board for a new cutoff sled for my new tablesaw. I bought a 5/4 piece of S3S Oak (my hardwood dealer is only open 2 saturdays a month unless you have a decent sized order. I attempted to face joint the board to square it up (the place I had to buy from stores their hardwood vertically and I wanted an extremely straight and square board.) I marked the face of the board I was trying to joint with a pencil. When I attempted to facejoint the oak, I had good contact for about 1/2 the board and then no contact for the trailing 1/2 of the board. Switching end for end on the board got me a wonderful teeter toter. The picture attached shows a typical example after one pass.

Photobucket link: http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q595/Escal/a9dd5c3d.jpg

So I decided to check the settings on the jointer. I got the belt unattached (should it be on when taking measurements?), took off the fence, guard, and piece that bolts to outfeed table to support fence. (Necessary to be able to get to gib screws). The locking nuts on the gib screws were taken loose, the gib screws were checked for tightness, and then I raised both tables a bit and started to take measurements. I have read that the outfeed table is the table that should be shimmed to make the tables coplanar since the infeed table moves more.

All table measurements are made with a 50” Veritas straightedge and HF feeler gauges. Numbers are in thou and are the largest feeler gauge I could get under the straightege.

Straightedge center of gravity on infeed table close to fence, measurements taken on outfeed table.

2 16 Blade

On side cloest to guard

5 15 Blade

I then added a 2 thou feeler gauge to the distal end of the dovetail closest to the guard.

Second set of measurements:

4 18

5 17

After this, I needed to add about the same size shim to each side on the dovetail closest to the blade. After a few rounds of trial and error, 5 thou worked out the best. According to the straighedge, I was coplanar to between 2-3 thou.

Then I made John White’s jigs from FWW to set the blades (http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=5294). I used these to set the blades at what looked like TDC to me. Blades were set so I could hear them them touch the straightedge but not move it at all. Guard/Blade/Fence/etc went back on and I decided to try with a 2×6 from the local borg. Same result. I wondered if adding the fence had introduced stresses and some movement in the cast iron, so I went back and rechecked for coplanar. This is what I got…

Next to fence:
0 1.5 0 Blade 0 2.5 0

Next to guard:

0 3 2.5 Blade 0 3 1.5

Diagonal oufeed next to fence, infeed close to guard:

0 0 3 Blade 0 3 1.5

Other diagonal:

0 3 3 Blade 0 3 0

So if my straightedge is ok, I have to think the tables are ok.

I then tried setting the blades 2 thou above the outfeed based on this article (http://woodworkerszone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Setting_jointer_outfeed_table) I got somewhat better results on some 3 foot long scraps I had around edge jointing, but the 2×4’s from the borg got me the same result.

I have to think this is a technique error at this point, but darned if I know what I am doing wrong. I am also starting to wonder about the straightedge, but it checked out nicely against the Sawstop top earlier this month.

Plan tomorrow is to reset the knives using the jigs and Garagewoodworks plan to get TDC. Gary (Rogowiski)? has a technique video I plan on watching.

I will be happy to add any more information if anyone has questions.

Thanks for reading this book,

Scott

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PocketsFullOfSawdust

8 posts in 751 days


#15 posted 09-09-2012 05:06 AM

Well the jointer seems okay. I haven’t heard of setting the blades higher than the outfeed before. I like them to be dead on level with the out feed bed. If they are lower the board will hit obviously, if they are higher there will be snipe at best. Anyways, the jointer seems fine. Lets look at the wood. I usually teach my students to lay the board on the infeed table (or another flat surface) so you can see and feel any rocking. Usually, if there is a bow you want the bow pointing up so only two points are touching the table. If there is a twist, find the face that rocks the least and use that one. While you are pushing through try to make sure the board does not rock. Cups are handled the same way as the bow. If you have a combination of these, just try to keep the board from rocking. You probably already know this part but for others who may not, keep your pressure on the infeed table as you start, as you progress balance out your pressure on both tables, and as you finish keep your pressure on the outfeed table. You should be able to flatten a board that is twice the length of your total bed length.
What I would try is to flatten a board. Measure how thick the board is at various points (use a caliper, not a tape) especially the front and back. Then make another pass and see if the same amount was taken off along the board.
Good luck.

-- "I think that if I did not work with wood, my life would be a hollow emptiness." Jonas Wainwright

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