Advice on ShopSmith--Mark V

I have a friend with one. The biggest knock that I know of is the time needed to set it up when you change from machine to machine. Shopsmiths have been around for a long time and have a loyal following. There are a number of LumberJocks that use them. You might try searching LumberJocks for the term shopsmith.

Every year at the California State Fair in Sacramento the Shopsmith guys come to town and demo. That would be a good way for you to see the sales pitch. It is perhaps an hours drive for you?

Also if you check CraigsList and search for shopsmith. There are normally quite a few for sale and for a lot less than a brand new one.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Matt, I was looking at the ShopSmith because I too had very little space to work with in the beginning. I think you should check out my workshop photos. In them you will see the SuperShop built be Smity. It makes the ShopSmith look like a toy. It weighs 450 lbs and is a tablesaw, lathe, horizontal and vertical drill press and overhead router and/or molder(with the purchase of molder bits). I also purchased the 6” jointer(I would suggest a seperate jointer if you can afford and have the space) and 12” bandsaw ( which is fine for crafts, but not resawing). The thing about setup is that you have to learn to complete all functions (sawing, drilling, lathe work, jointing, bandsawing, etc.) before moving on to the next step, otherwise you will spend a lot of time with setup. What I like most about the setup with the SuperShop vs. ShopSmith is that the SuperShop uses a collet to hold the shafts for the saw blade, drill chuck, lathe chucks, etc.; where as the ShopSmith uses allen screws and wrenches. The collet is fast and there’s no slipping with it. The tablesaw table is small on both and since the table adjusts up and down instead of the blade there is little in a permanent fix that you can do, even though it comes with an auxiliary table that goes on either end to help when crosscutting plywood and long boards. The SuperShop is varible speed from 32 to 7200 rpms and uses a DC motor with a three pulley belt arangment for various speed selections. Right now they are having a sale: $2880. You can check it out at, www.Smity.com, go under tools and pick SuperShop for the details.

I do not work for or have any connection with SuperShop besides owning one.

-- Jesus is Lord!

I have been planning a shop for about 5 years acively and had really considered a shop smith. Considering how full of tools my shop has become I can definatly see the benefit. I will tell you that the reason I did not go that way is the time required to change between tools seemed unworth the effort and a hindrance to getting work done. Overall I would say that the tool is going to be better quality on average than what you already have. AAAAAAAAAAND FINALLY I would say that you need to watch ebay etc as it seems that the cost of a machine with 4 attatched tools is about the same as having 7 tools. I have seen some deals… looks like many times there will be a sale due to a move or a death and the seller oftentimes has no idea what they have.

-Drew

-- Drew, Pleasant Grove, Utah

I had a Shopsmith for years. Somethings I liked somethings I don’t. I bought the stands for the bandsaw and for the jointer. That way you don’t to put the saw and jointer on the main frame. It take up more room but if you forget to do something or damage something you don’t tear everthing and set up again. The moter is underpowered if you cut oak I overcame that by using a amaller blade. I sold mine but I have a ringmaster that I would like to sell to a Shopsmith owner. The table is too small and too high off the floor. I should have filmed my efforts to use stand and cut a large panel, I could have sent it to America’s funny viveos.LOL

-- Morris Wallace Seffner Fl. www.woodwork@tampabay.rr.com

I own 3 shopsmiths, 2 older 10ER models and 1 Mark 5. You’ll probably find a real split between Smith users and separate tool users, and since I use one, I’m going to be biased, but here goes.
First, the most oft brought up point: All that time switching between tools. You might ask yourself why this seems to be an issue for separate tool guys, but not for smithys. Since smithys actually change from tool to tool and it doesn’t bother them, maybe it’s more a perceived thing by non users than an actual problem. I maintain that it’s a mind set more than anything. If you think it’s a time consuming issue, then it is; if you don’t, then it isn’t. (By the way, I’m pretty sure there’s setup time on individual tools, they don’t just set themselves up for your project)(Also, I don’t have 3 to save time in changover…I just sort of collect them.
If space is at a premium, this is a great help. I have accessories so that I have: table saw, panel saw, 12” disk sander, drum sander, shaper, drill press, mortiser, horizontal boring machine, lathe, bandsaw, and jigsaw all in a 12’ x 12’ shop area.
Even if there are compromises in this system, the space savings make up for them. And again, I think a lot of it is in one’s mind. I’ve built furniture and remodeled a kitchen and never felt I was at a disadvantage with my setup.
As to reliability, my oldest 2 machines were built in 1952 and my newest in 1992 and they all work great. I’ve never had any down time due to problems.
I wouldn’t necessarily buy a new machine since used ones are out there. They can be had in the $300 -$600 range. Actually, I bought my Mark 5 for $175. I just got lucky on that one, and older guy (older than me so he must be older) just wanted to clean out his garage. Just check ebay as an example. Before you buy a used one, talk to a knowledgeable smithy on the differences/changes in them over time. Some are worth more than others. I’ll be glad to help, by the way.

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

Napaman, I forgot to mention that on the SuperShop, it will handle 8”, 10” and 12” blades and it also has the 12” sanding disc.

-- Jesus is Lord!

I’ve heard a lot of critics about these machines, but many don’t seem to have a ton of experience with one. Basic Economics teach that when you try to do too many things at once, you don’t have the best quality individually in most instances. I can’t back that up as I have limited knowledge. My gut says that the individual machines would be better as all of the production aspects are focused on one operation. This would definitely be a product I’d have to try before buying. Check the local clubs for a friendly neighbor! If their like me, they like showing off their tools and won’t mind you test driving them.

-- Jeff, South Carolina

I picked up the 10ER on Craigslist – the original 1952? prototype model. There are things I love about it, and some things that aren’t as efficient as a dedicated machine. I don’t regret the purchase at all, It has allowed me access to a lathe, tablesaw, disc sander, spindle sander, drill press, scroll saw (unused as of yet) 4” jointer (also unused – can’t figure out how to put it together so that it will operate safely, I may be missing a guard or other key part.)

The previous owner who inherited it from his Dad was moving cross country and couldn’t take it with him. He did build his kitchen cabinets with it.

There are seemingly lots of people selling off thiers for parts on eBay. What’s nice is that an older model can be bought for the cost of one dedicated machine, so all the other add-ons are a bonus, and you don’t have to feel guilty about using them or not. You can also upgrade an older one with a newer moter unit, or accessories.

I mostly use mine as a lathe and a horizontal boring machine, (6’ ceiling a hair to short to be a vertical drill press, but possible if I align it between the floor joists overhead. One disadvantage for lathe use is that you have to slide the heavy motor portion to chuck a spindle, rather than the tailstock.

It really doesn’t take that long to switch between accessories and set-ups, but I do find myself not wanting to switch back and forth. Also there are some ergonomic compromises with an all-in-one machine. A hair too high to be a tablesaw, a tad too low for the lathe (If you’re 6’ tall that is). Thankfully I have a tablesaw so I’m not bouncing back and forth between operations all that much.

All that said, I still don’t regret the purchase and it is a really well built machine. Runs well, balanced, quiet. I’d keep it for the tasks it can do, and it’s versaitility. It’s helped show me which machines I really need, and which I can get by without.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

Scott (and others who might own an old 10ER machine), theres a great Yahoo “10ER users group” that’s very useful to help with problems, or to optimize the use of the machine. Just go to Yahoo, then groups, then search for 10ER users.
On the mention of the table saw being too high and the lathe a bit too low, the old Shopsmith has been my primary woodworking tool throughout my entire life, (although I have used separate tools, as well) and I always thought the separate table saw was a bit too low and the separate lathe was a little high. Oh well, I guess it’s whatever you’re used to. -SST

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

that’s funny SST… and you’re right. I can manage an hour at the lathe, but beyond that my lower back doesn’t like it much.

oh, and thanks for the mention of the Yahoo group. I never looked to see if there was one.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

I have used the Shopsmith Mark V primarily (though have used the 10ER some, too). I have almost every Special Purpose Tool available. I can’t imagine getting that many separate tools into my shop. A couple of myths:
• the changovers take too long… who’s in that big of a hurry anyway? (But, for the record, I can do a complete changeover in less than a minute.)
• the tablesaw table is too small… I’m guessing this comment comes from the person who hasn’t seen one since the ‘80s.
• the motor is underpowered… I cut 8/4 oak on the thing and it doesn’t bog down at all. Then again, I’m not feeding it through to win a race, either.

And a couple of valid gripes:
• The table raises/lowers instead of the blade… This can be a pain – if you get everything set up and need to tweak just a tiny bit, you have to move all your side tables… I guess it just requires some forethought in the initial setup, though
• The lathe isn’t heavy enough… Here the heft would be appreciated. I know a guy who threw sandbags accross the entire bottom set of tubes and acc. to him it solved the problem instantly.

(by the way, here’s some pictures my Shopsmith setup if it would help you to see it “in action” – http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/hops/workshop)

-- † Hops †

As if we haven’t talked this subject to death, here’s some more. On the lathe being too light, I think that might be an issue on the Mark 5 because they made that model lighter than the old 10ER by going from cast iron to aluminum and thin wall high strength tubes, but the 10ER is not too light, in my opinion, it’s a brute. But, of course, it’s strength is also it’s weakness, as it’s not as easy to move about as the Mark 5.
I’ve got pics of my set up in the workshop section, by the way, and more at the 10ER users site at Yahoo.
I’ve solved the small table issue on the older machines by adding a second table. It was one of the best add-ons I’ve done.
I find the change over time to be insignificant for 2 reasons: First, it really is minimal, and second, Who doesn’t like to putz with tools…I enjoy the process.
I guess it gets back to one of my original points that it’s really a mindset. You either like it, or you don’t.
Sometimes, I think I enjoy just fooling around with the machine as much as I enjoy building stuff with it. Maybe that’s more the case when you work with old, sentimental stuff as opposed to new stuff. -SST

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

I added a shelf and drawer for storage and have some wood on it to add to the overall weight of my lathe. I’ve even put 5 gallon buckets of sand to weigh it down.

-- Jesus is Lord!

my opinion you ask?

I think you would be happy with a combination machine, whether a ShopSmith, or the one that oscorner has. Both of these machines have been around for a number of years. You can find Shopsmiths in good working condition that were bought in the 1950’s and 1960’s, as well as newer ones. If you want a great combination machine, look at Felder’s. I would love to have one those German made gems. Laguna also makes an excellent combination machine.

My opinon for you would be to focus more on the purpose of the tool, and whether you want a combination machine, or separate machines. Once you have made that decision, you won’t look back, or have regrets. Look at this way: if you buy it and don’t like it, you can always sell it. If you buy a used one, like has been suggested to you, you could probably resell it for the same price you bought it for.

If you have a small space, need to roll it out and roll it back for storage, then you will be happy with the combination machine, as it will be much better than using saw horses and a Skilsaw to work with, which I have done, ugh! Hey, I quit a good paying job one time to start my business building furniture, and all I owned was a Black & Decker circular saw and a pair of home made saw horses. I don’t recommend that style of business startup, but that is another story.

As Mark (oscorner) metioned, there are limitations to the tools, and there limitations to any tool. If you do buy the whole ShopSmith set up, I know you will spend more time doing woodworking than you did before. If you are just starting out, you will learn a lot of skills with the machine, and we’ll enjoy watching your progress. If that is what you want, then you will be happy with the Shopsmith.

I know a fantastic professional furniture maker that started his business up about 30 years ago with a Shopsmith. He has grown to where he has a large facility now, and industrial sized Powermatic tools sitting everywhere, but he still uses the original Shopsmith, and keeps a dado blade on it all the time, and uses it for that purpose. I asked him about it back in 1996 when I didn’t have any tools, and he recommended that if I had a small shop, no space, and limited resources, the Shopsmith would be a good investment. He told me that it would get me off of the couch wishing for tools, and into the garage actually using tools. My advice is the same to you.

Then, he said as time went along, I could always get a bigger shop, and bigger stationary tools, and if I wanted to sell it, he said that the resale market is strong for them. My advice again to you.

I never did buy Shopsmith though. Why?
I couldn’t ever come up with enough money to buy the whole setup. I’ve bought my tools one little piece at a time over the past 10 years. One time in the late 1980’s, I found a brand new ShopSmith with all of the accessory tools at a Pawn Shop in Baton Rouge where I was living then. I visited the tools at the Pawn Shop every day for a couple of weeks, hoping to see the price come down below $2,000, which was then, and still is, a lot of money for me. I was offering them $1500, just on the principle that they should be willing to “dicker”, and they assured me that they didn’t need to. Then one day after work, I made my daily trip into visit the tools and see if they would consider $1750, and to my shock and amazement it was all GONE! I wished at that moment, that I had charged the $2,000 on a credit card (something I did in those days), and had bought the machine. I’m sure I would still have it today, even if I had added other stationary tools over the years.

Keep us informed of your decision, there will be many of us watching and waiting to see what you do.
Mark DeCou
www.decoustudio.com

I also make no money from any endorsements. (although I am open to it, so email me if you want to pay me)!!

-- Mark DeCou - Kansas Flint Hill's Artisan

thanks everyone for al the advice…I have been mulling it over and looking on Craig’s List…for the Bay area—holy cow there are a lot of tools out there for sale…I may jump on one that seems to have a really low price—-bad divorce or something…will let all of you know which way i go…thanks! thanks! thanks! everyword is appreciated…and when i get time i will send a personal reply to all of you since none of you will see this :) !!!

-- Matt, Napa, CA...119 days to sanity...

I like Craigs list. Often good deals to be had if you shop carefully.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Those were great words of wisdom, Mark…I wish I could have put it that way. Well, that’s why we’re glad that you are here…your experience and wisdom is appreciated. I wish I’d known you when you were in, Baton Rouge.

-- Jesus is Lord!

While I have not used craigslist, as there isn’t one in my area, I have shopped a lot on ebay. Not for a machine, but for accessories, because often they are plentiful and reasonable. If you do find a shopsmith, you should be able to “accessorize” it at a reasonable cost. Good luck, which ever way you go. -SST

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

Wow…all this feedback is great…its like you guys are here with me…I have read all your advice carefully and have spent the last few nights looking at craig’s list and e-bay. There are quite a few on each…and e-bay is loaded with accessories…there is one on ebay down in So-cal for $699 and looks brand new. the people selling it said there are multiple parts still in sealed bags…

There are many others on e-bay—-but they are on the eastcoast or midwest and say for “pick-up” only…so only a few choices…

ANd there are several on craigslist within driving distance…one is really cheap—-almost too cheap…but I am not sure the person knows what they are selling since she said “my husband bought it a few years ago and never used it’...

So…I am in the hunt…may have one this weekend??? May just have to watch the next couple months for the right situation…

One set up was listed as a 2001 Mark 520…with $8000 worth of gear for $3500…it is more money—-but it would be a newer machine—-and would set me up with everything…

so not sure which way to go…cheaper with older machine—-or newer—with total set up and upgrades…which sounds entriguing…I am not rich…but I could do this…and will use it…

ok…I will keep all of you up to date…

matt

-- Matt, Napa, CA...119 days to sanity...

The 520 is the current”full-boat” machine. They go for about $3000 and accessories beyond the basic 5 tools would be extra. If you go to the Shopsmith website, you can see the table setup on the 520. I think the standard setup is adequate and one of those machines can be had for a ton less.(then, I’m happy with a couple of 55 year old model 10ER’s, so what do I know). A couple of things about used machines. Even though you’re looking at a Mark 5, there has been a series of improvements over time to the basic unit. Here are some things I’m familiar with. (By the way the shopsmith site has a button to click that gives the evolution of the machine, too) The first ones , called “greenies” because of their color, have a variable speed setup that is not current, and unless upgraded, usually have 3/4hp motors and are somewhat under powered. While many have stood the test of time, I’d look for a newer one. They improved the variable drive system, added an additional bearing set to the quill assembly and 1 1/8hp motor. They also increased the table size. If you have other questions, you can always send me a message, I guess. I’ve not tried that on this site, but I see I have a message button, so I guess it’s possible.

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

I own a Mark510 (the current model is a 520). The only complaint I have with the machine is the table saw. The table is not large enough (22 Inches front to rear) for working with large pieces of wood, and whem the table is tilted, long pieces are difficult to manuver. Another thing you might want to consider is when the table is set for maximun depth of cut the table is 44 inches from the floor. Even with these personal dislikes I enjoy my machine. I purchased it in 1996.

You might want to check out the company website.

Mike

-- Mike M., Flint, Mi

here is the link to the Mark 500 on e-bay which ends in 4 days…the current bid is up to $810…

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140116962650

-- Matt, Napa, CA...119 days to sanity...

I see them in our area all the time on Craigslist. The advantage over ebay would be the ability to inspect the tool before your buy it. Also, you may be able to find one even cheaper that $810.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

I picked mine up, about an hours drive…. was between $5 and $600 for the ER model. THe guy selling it inhereited it from his father, and his shop was immaculate. If not for his handiwork around the house I’d have thought he never used it. In the use and maintenance overview he told me to make sure I vacuumed it down every night, and so on. Dad and I looked at each other and realized this was a well taken care of machine. Fortunately I got to help dismantle it (to carry it in as few parts as possible out of the basement, and down into mine) is a very heavy machine… you don’t want to pay for shipping. Bring a buddy with you when you find the one.

-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso -- http://snbcreative.wordpress.com/

The Mark 5 is a lot lighter than the old 10ER. They replaced a lot of the cast iron with aluminum and, I suppose, other alloys…not really a lot of plastic, thankfully. When I moved my Mark 5, I disassembled in about 10-15 minutes and carried all the parts out to my car by myself, and my back is not particularly sound.
Even the headstock/motor assembly isn’t that bad, but I still wouldn’t want to ship it. The 10ERr, on the other hand, is a beast. That’s part of what I like about it. There’s something about a power tool that weighs more than your pickup truck (or mother-in-law) that can make your heart go a pit-a-pat…but there I go, waxing nostalgic again…-Shopsmithtom

By the way, in looking for a used “Smith”, my suggestion is that, unless you’re and old tool buff/collector, you get a Mark 5, not a 10ER. (Check the Shopsmith site for pics) I love my 10ER’s and they are my personal first choice, but the Mark 5 is more user friendly and supported by the company for replacement/repair parts and optional accessories.

-- Accuracy is not in your power tool, it's in you

I’d sell you my old Mark V for $300. I’m in the process of taking pictures, etc. for craigslist as we speak. I have the router bit chuck, the jigsaw table, and the newer drill press chuck and drill press lever, and the original setup stuff. It’s not the newer larger table, but if you just want something cheap that works good, it will do the job. It’s an oldie but a goodie. I used it for a long time when I lived in a condo. Now I have all dedicated tools. I wouldn’t get the ER if I were you. It’s a novelty much more than a worthwhile tool. I know some guys that still use them as a workhorse, but the Mark V is so standardized and easy to replace parts on that it’s great if anything ever goes wrong.

My least favorite thing about the shopsmith isn’t the setup time (because that’s really not terribly bad) – it’s the fact that many of the extra items you get for the shopsmith have to be purchased from shopsmith. The drill press chuck, lathe accessories, etc. Not a big deal, just a monopoly. I remember I was trying to look up a keyless chuck for my shopsmith and couldn’t find it because shopsmith didn’t make it and most drill presses use an MT2 or MT1 arbor. Shopsmith uses a 5/8” arbor and a set screw. Different setup – thus… you can only buy your drill press chucks from them. However, the things I have ordered from shopsmith have been very easy to find and received quickly. Their customer service is great.

P.S. – I’ll be in Victorville, CA mid-June (kindof near your neck of the woods), and I can bring it along if you want to meet half way.

-- Thomas Porter, Phoenix, AZ, www.thomasporter.com

As a point of reference, there is one listed on Craigslist tonight for $2500. The listing indicates $7K worth of tool and accessories.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Also, I came across this site while looking for something else…

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

If you are still looking for a shop smith I have one that I would sell, It is In Kansas city Mo. I would sell it worth the money if your interested. It is all in good working order and I have alot of the accessories

-- vlee2@ford.com

Another one in Sac

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/338494277.html

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

PROUD NEW OWNER OF A SHOPSMITH 520!!!! Well…thanks everyone…I did it!! I drove 16 hours yesterday and purchased a 2003 Mark V 520 Shopsmith!!! I got a great deal from a really nice gentleman who used it to get started in woodworking and since has built a huge shop and purchased all stand alone tools…

In addition to the basic set up I got a bandsaw, jointer, shaper, mortise and tenon set, dust collector, many extra blads, knives and sanding discs, the large extension tables, feather boards. In addition came a cabinet he built from a Shopsmith class he took that fits perfectly under the table…

All this would retail for over $5000 and he sold it for $1900!!! He had an amazing shop and just seems like a very good person so I know I got a good deal…

Thank you for all your advice…this is probably the most expensive thing I have purchased with cash and I actually researched it thoroughly…I read all your comments carefully and used the website (and subsequent links) that WayneC suggested—-if you are also thinking of a shopsmith that was a great site to read through…and I gobbled up every word…

http://www.songofthegreatlakes.com/shopsmith.htm

Also—-Mar DeCou’s words kept me going when I kept thinking whether I would regret passing up a machine…

Also—-Oscorner, SST, ScotB and so many others in the forum above—-thank you for your advice…seriously—-I would not have had the confidence to make this purchase without all your help!!!

I have nine days left in school (I am a high school history teacher) and I cant wait to read all the manuals and get started….I will add photos soon…maybe I will use his phtos from e-bay and put them in my “work shop section”...will try that now…

Will be making projects SOOOOON…

matt

-- Matt, Napa, CA...119 days to sanity...

Congradulations on your find. I’m sure it will serve you well for years to come.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Well done Matt. We will enjoy seeing your work over the summer.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

Ok…I got photos up…they arent the best…but go check on my account page under “work shop”...and you will see the machine…thanks again for all the advice…

-- Matt, Napa, CA...119 days to sanity...

Looks great Matt. You all can see his new shopsmith here.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

Any thoughts of using the Lathe on your ShopSmith? I’ve see you express some interest on the turning projects lately.

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov