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Forum topic by bluekingfisher posted 08-02-2012 08:50 AM 1104 views 0 times favorited 18 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


08-02-2012 08:50 AM

I have been for what seems like an age, deciding on how to go about installing my dust collection system. At last I am at a stage where I can start the project.

I have a small shop 24×14. I will be running the duct work (110mm) pipe in a “T” shape. The top of the T will run the lenght of the shop servicing 5 machines (RAS, chop saw, BS, DP. D&BS). the stem of the T will run across the width of the shop servicing the TS.

I have a 2HP DC which will be sited on the left hand end of the T.

I want to build some form of 2 stage collector using a 50 gallon drum as the collection tank. I have read much but still undecided on whether to go about it with a Thein type with baffler or a cyclone variety.

I’m quite confident my DC will handle the lenght of duct but to ensure the most efficient system, does the thein or the cyclone make much of a difference in the efficiency stakes?

Also, If I go for the cyclone system (thinking of building my own) Is it beneficial to make it purely a cone shape or the cone shape with the rcircular drum on top. What dimensions should I be thinking about as far as the cone goes. I was thinking something around a max diameter of around 16” funnelling down to 6” where it exhausts into the tank.

I was also going to hook up to the single 6” port on the DC rather than one of the two 4” port then hook that 6” pipe to a 6” out take port on top of the cyclone. (Remember the duct is 110mm or 4 1/2”)

As you can see I have a lot of questions so any advice or experience on similar projects would be greatly appreciated.

Hoping to start the project some time early October.

Thanks, David

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan


18 replies so far

View kizerpea's profile

kizerpea

746 posts in 1021 days


#1 posted 08-02-2012 11:52 AM

david ..get the plan from wood magizne diy cyclone it will help you on this …my build was on a budget an i used things i could find close to where i live..it works great….if you need help with the cone.we are here

stephen

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


#2 posted 08-02-2012 01:08 PM

Stephen, much appreciated. I’m tight on space hence my hankering towards the baffler system. I have had a look at yours, I see you are a Jet fan too. I might get back to you for tips should I finally make a decision on which path to take.

BTW – What size DC do you have and how how long is your duct work? I assume from your response you are having good results from your system?

Many thanks

David

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

View Belg1960's profile

Belg1960

802 posts in 1719 days


#3 posted 08-02-2012 03:08 PM

David, from my reading on this subject the first thing I would recommend is to go with a “Y” instead of a “T” the reduction in drag will be significant over the T. Also use sweeps instead of 90’s that will really help as well.
I can’t help to much with your baffle dilemma but I’m sure you’ll make the right decision for your needs. I just this past week hooked my 2HP Jet unit to my tablesaw, I was waiting for some sealer I installed on the fittings to dry before using it. I had to go on vacation first(on holiday right now I add that just so you understand LOL). Will let you know this coming weekend how it all works.
I think keeping the 6” for as long as possible will keep your volume as high as possible, reducing the hoses at the tools themselves to my mind will create a venturi effect at the optimum time. Emphasis on “IN MY MIND”.

-- ***Pat*** Rookie woodworker looking for an education!!!

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MonteCristo

2097 posts in 842 days


#4 posted 08-03-2012 03:56 AM

Probably a good idea to check out some of the good books on dust collection. There’s lots to consider. I agree with Belg1960 that a T is a poor way to go compared to a Y fitting. Big piping is good but make sure your air speed isn’t too slow. (almost) Any of the cyclone options is going to be better than none . . .

-- Dwight - "Free legal advice available - contact Dewey, Cheetam & Howe""

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Loren

7550 posts in 2301 days


#5 posted 08-03-2012 05:54 AM

Wood Magazine cyclone has a small footprint and the design is
vertical and consumes very little space compared to a bag
collector with a trash can used as a pre-collector for heavy
chips.

I have one. 1.5 hp motor, being generous with the rating
because it’s like 15 amps and made in Asia. Kinda
wimpy really, but it does the job.

I bought it used off a guy so I don’t know anything
about the build other than a glance at the article. I’ve got more
ducting and right angle bends than you’ll likely have in your
shop and it works pretty good for the table saw. For the Belsaw,
it gets a lot but the machine still makes a mess. A lot
of that is my fault because of my primitive dust chute
design I think. With a portable planer and OEM dust chute
your performance should be much better than I get.

-- http://lawoodworking.com

View djg's profile

djg

99 posts in 816 days


#6 posted 08-03-2012 11:03 AM

Are you saying that you will be running a 4” main trunk? My understanding of your post is that you plan to increase the the port on the BS to 6”? if this is your plan it will do nothing for your air flow. Your 4” duct will only support about 400 CFM, no more. Assuming you split this into two 4 in branches going to the two 4” ports on the BS you will effectively decrease the air flow to 200 CFM in each branch (Assuming the length of the branches are the same and hence the static pressure of both branches is equal) which won’t be much better than a large shop vac. You will be able to collect some of the dust but you need a much larger volume of air to collect the diffuse stuff that gets away from the ports. Hooking up a 6” duct to the BS will not help the dust collection unless your dust collector supports a 6” main trunk. Your 4” main trunk will determine the volume of air that you can move. At the static pressures we woodworkers use to move air in our duct systems, the air is incompressible so moving more air is limited to increasing the duct size and increasing the impeller. If your DC supports it, you should run 6” mains to all your machines. Operate one machine at a time. If your DC has a 6” inlet, use the 6” duct as your main. The manufactures often undersize their impellers and air starve the DCs.

I would recommend you get a clamp on ammeter, measure the current with the inlet sealed. After you hook up the duct system, measure the current again. if the currents are the same then your system is sealed up good. Otherwise you will have to find the leaks. Run the collector with the gates open and measure the current again. make sure this is less than the motor plate amperage. If the impeller is processing too much air the motor current will increase and possibly burn out the motor.

Everything that Belg1960 has said will minimize static pressure in the system which will maximize your CFM. The problem is that without the fancurve for you DC, you have no way of knowing what air volume your DC will be moving for the static pressure you will be operating at.

-- DJG

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kizerpea

746 posts in 1021 days


#7 posted 08-03-2012 11:19 AM

david wouldn,t tell u wrong..got a friend that build it by the plan..it works good…get the plan….i,ll find his web page a send it to you so u can see it

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


#8 posted 08-03-2012 12:25 PM

Thanks for all the input and feedback fellahs -

Hi Pat – Can I first say, that although I mentioned “T” shaped, the junction where the branch meets will be made up of two 45degree couplings ensuring a wide smooth curve rather than a tight 90 degree bend The ducting will be on the same plane, rather than the top branch being horizontal and the stem being vertical. The branches to the individual machine will have “Y” connections rather than “T”’s. and will only be about 3’ long at most. I will have very little in the way of the ribbed hose, only using it where I cant manouver the ducting to fit

Monte Cristo – I have a couple of books on dust collection, the advice from bothh seem very sound and I have gleened much of what I know from them. However, the books rarely have the answers to problems or issues encountered by individual systems, hence my post here (which I have to say has proved more efficient than any book).

Loren – I might have a look at the WOOD magazine cyclone plan. I have the WOOD magazine dvd (up till 2008) do you know which magazine issue the plan featured??

DJG – You have provided a lot of info there, thank you. Not sure I have the technical understanding of air flows to make the most of what you have contributed though. My DC has a 6” port on the impeller housing. Fitted to that is/was a coupling with two 4” ports formed in a Y section. I have removed this fitting with the two 4” ports. My thinking was to run a 6” duct (approx 3 feet from the DC to the collector. Th remainder of the system will be 4 1/2” drainage pipe. I take your point that there may be no great benfit by using 6” ducting to the collector (50 gallon drum) but surely it won’t have a negative effect?
The BS is sited approx 4 feet from the DC so shouldn’t have too much trouble “sucking” the dust at the BS?
I can’t remember off hand ,although I believe my DC is good for 1100CFM I’ll have to check that. What other info would you require of the DC to provide some more info, Amps? circumference of the impeller etc?

Stephen – That would be very kind, although if you don’t have the details can you remember what issue of the mag the plan was in…..no point in buying it if I already have it on WOOD mag dvd somewhere.
I have a plan from ShopNotes on how to build a cyclone, if you have seen it, is it anything like the plan you built your system from?

Thanks again

David

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


#9 posted 08-03-2012 12:35 PM

Stephen – Is this the plan you were talking of?

http://www.woodstore.net/cycduscol.html

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

View kizerpea's profile

kizerpea

746 posts in 1021 days


#10 posted 08-04-2012 11:30 AM

yes thats it…used that as the blueprint but super sized it…got a friend who built that same system.he added a shelter on the back of his little shop.an piped everything to the inside,,for my use i found two 55gal fiber drums.cut a window so as to see the chip level in the drum…with the motor outside it keeps the noise level down alot..like some pictures i,ll send u some ..

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

View SASmith               's profile

SASmith

1590 posts in 1640 days


#11 posted 08-04-2012 04:39 PM

I made a wooden cyclone that I am very happy with.
If you are interested in going that route and have any questions feel free to ask.

-- Scott Smith, Southern Illinois

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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


#12 posted 08-06-2012 08:28 AM

Stephen, Unfortunately I don’t have the space outside to site the motor or filter to as I am tight to my boundary fence with my neighbour. I would appreciate some pictures though to see how you have gone about the task.

The cyclone is the way i would like to go eventually although I have to install a system quick….............so for the time being I’ve decided to go with the baffle as it is a quick install.

SASmith, that is a very inventive way of making a cyclone, great work, what size motor and duct work have you used??

Many thanks

David

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

View djg's profile

djg

99 posts in 816 days


#13 posted 08-06-2012 11:02 AM

The diameter of the impeller would be useful to determine if your collector can move enough air for 6” duct. If you are running 6” only a few feet from the dc then converting to 4, then the result will be no different than running 4” directly to the dc. Your 4” will determine the airflow in the system. You systems will be sufficient at collecting chips, etc but not dust, especially the stuff that gets beyond you dust hoods. You should run 6” directly to your machines if your dc can handle it. Post your impeller and motor amps. It may be a useful start. You can check your motor ams
Under load quite easily. Attach a piece of 6” duct about 6’ long. Measure the amperage using a clamp on ammeter to verify that the amperage is less than that on the nameplate. Your motor amperage will be less than this since the collector will move less air under higher resistance in the duct system.

-- DJG

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bluekingfisher

1037 posts in 1633 days


#14 posted 08-06-2012 11:12 AM

The dia of the impeller is 17”. There is no Amp rating shown on the motor plate, its 240V with a 1.5Kwh rating (2HP) if that is any help.

The DC has a 6” port on the impeller housing. What I was intending to do was run a 6” hose to the seperator about 4 or 5 feet. The remainder of the duct work will be 4 1/2”

When next in the shop I’ll take a couple of photos, a picture paints a thousand words, as they say.

There will be dust hoods/collector boxes at the machines. I also have a fine filter cartridge (0.1 microns) so fine dust will be catered for.

Thanks again for your advice, much appreciated.

David

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

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djg

99 posts in 816 days


#15 posted 08-06-2012 05:23 PM

Running 4.5” duct will really choke your air flow down to about 400 cfm regardless of the impeller size. At the static pressures for dust collection there is virtually no compression of the air so the air volume is limited by the smallest diameter pipe. For good dust collection you need to move twice that amount of air at the tool ports. 6” would be required for that. A 17” impeller is large for that motor. Your no load amps shouldn’t be much more than 6.3 amps. There are motor losses. If you block of the inlet, measure the current, you should get something in that range. Without the nameplate amps it is difficult to say how much current you will draw while processing air. Put a 6’ length of duct on the inlet of the collector and measure the current. If it doubles compared to no load, you may risk burning out the motor. Otherwise use 6” for everything. Your 6” duct system has to have more static pressure loss than a 6’ duct which means the system will draw even less current again meaning less heat generated by the motor doing work on that volume of air.

-- DJG

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