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Getting Serious about Dust Collection

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Forum topic by Jeremy Greiner posted 07-29-2012 05:57 AM 6537 views 1 time favorited 30 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Jeremy Greiner

568 posts in 1523 days


07-29-2012 05:57 AM

So I’m looking to improve my dust collection, I currently have a Jet DC-1100A .. which goes to a filter bag etc and I’m looking at a few options. My shop is my garage .. which is about a 16×25 usable space with 11’ ceilings. I would only have 1 tool running at a time and use blast gates to control airflow. I need to stay within the 110v range because it would be fairly costly to get a 220v circuit added where I wanted to keep my dust collector.

The first option is upgrading the DC-1100A with some after market enhancements. I’m looking at a Super Dust Deputy 96 Gallon trash can, and an Onieda Dust filter made for these type of dust collectors.

Jet DC – Upgrade
Price: 625.60
CFM: 1100 at 4’’ (which I’m sure would be lower because of the added cyclone)
Intake: 5 or 4’’
Capacity: 96 gallon (if I decide to get that big of a trash can)
Filter: .3 micron

Other options are of course buying a cyclone dust collector:

Oneida 2 HP Super Dust Gorilla
Price: 1,727.28
CFM: 1339
Intake: 7’‘
Capacity: 35 gallon
Filter: .3 micron

Oneida V-System 1500™ – HEPA
Price: 1295.00
CFM: 949
Intake: 6’‘
Capacity: 35 Gallon
Filter: .3 Micron

Grizzly G0443
Price: 1,063.00
CFM: 1025
Intake: 6’‘
Capacity: 35 gallon
Filter: .2 Micron

Grizzly G0703P
Price: 838
CFM: 775
Intake: 6’‘
Capacity: 30 gallon
Filter: .2 Micron

The after market wins on price, and capacity but I’m not sure how much the CFM will tank by adding the cyclone/filter to the DC-1100. I’ve read mixed reviews about the super dust deputy, but overall they tend to be favorable.

The Grizzly’s win on filter size by .1 micron, I have no idea how much better that is .. but it’s better. The downside to the grizzly is I’m iffy on their service. I get a ton of good and bad reviews from grizzly, and while I’m willing to take a risk on a cheap tool from harbor freight when it’s 5 minutes away .. I don’t know if I’m willing to take the same risk with something freighted like this.

Oneida’s V series range in price and comes pretty closer to the grizzly, but it also jumps to the very high in price. The big question is if it is worth the money, would the Oneida V-1500 perform $600 better than the add on system? or would the 2 HP Super gorilla perform $1,100 better? and honestly I don’t know.

A lot of it comes down to how much of a loss of CFM do you get from the super dust deputy. If it’s 100-200 CFM .. then it’s not too bad, if it’s 500 or so, then that’s a pretty significant loss. There is also a cyclone mod sold on ebay for roughly the same price, I don’t know if it works better or worse but it’s also an option.

I love lumberjocks for the wealth of experience that is out there, if anyone has any experience with any of these setups and can offer their opinions I’d be greatly appreciated.

-jeremy

-- Easy to use end grain cutting board designer: http://www.1024studios.com/cuttingboard.html


30 replies so far

View RetiredCoastie's profile

RetiredCoastie

999 posts in 1934 days


#1 posted 07-29-2012 06:24 AM

Have you looked at the Thein separator? I have a Winn .1 micron filter on my DC and it seems to be very good. I plan on building a Thein separator for mine. There are lots of reviews on this set up with very good results. Good luck on your search. Try this thread, it has some info. http://lumberjocks.com/topics/19095

-- www.thepatriotwoodworker.com Proud Supporter of Homes For Our Troops

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

208 posts in 2073 days


#2 posted 07-29-2012 07:36 AM

First, if you are serious a cyclone is THE way to go.

Don’t rule out Clear Vue either.

I think calling Grizzly’s filters better means more research is in order. If it doesn’t say HEPA then it isn’t as good as a HEPA.

Given cyclones run more than any other single machine motor in the shop AND they run a near full load almost all the time it is the machine I most want a American built motor in.

Oneida and Clear Vue would be my only two choices unless you find a used Torit or similar.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm This provides all the info you need a more.

View Jeremy Greiner's profile

Jeremy Greiner

568 posts in 1523 days


#3 posted 07-29-2012 02:25 PM

@RetiredCoastie I’ve considered a thein separator but after my experience with the shop notes separator I’ve decided against it.

@AHuxley
All the setups mentioned above are cyclone setups. I looked at clear vue, but their cyclone is way to big for my Jet DC 1100 .. and their motors are only 220v .. which rules them out.

-- Easy to use end grain cutting board designer: http://www.1024studios.com/cuttingboard.html

View Alexandre's profile

Alexandre

1417 posts in 942 days


#4 posted 07-29-2012 02:28 PM

2hp super gorilla is the one I’ll get… It will last you a lifetime compared to the jet.

-- My terrible signature...

View AandCstyle's profile

AandCstyle

1485 posts in 1008 days


#5 posted 07-29-2012 03:10 PM

Jeremy,
I didn’t buy an Oneida and wish that I had because of the quality of their products, design and technical support. If you intend to run tubing to your machines, that can be a significant expense as well. I would probably purchase the V-System 1500 of the units you have listed, but if you have room in your electrical box I would seriously consider moving up 220v.

Call Oneida and talk with a technician. I was ready to purchase a Gorilla 2.5 or 3HP and the technician suggested some low cost options to improve my system’s performance which worked, saving me about $1200. HTH

-- Art

View MonteCristo's profile

MonteCristo

2098 posts in 939 days


#6 posted 07-29-2012 06:38 PM

DC on 110V was, for me, problematic. My Delta 1200 CFM collectors came wired for 110V but only 1 of 4 would even start, the other 3 tripping their 15A breakers due to start up load. I switched the lot to 220V and it’s been great. If you do use 110V, you’ll likely need a dedicated circuit.

-- Dwight - "Free legal advice available - contact Dewey, Cheetam & Howe""

View Jeremy Greiner's profile

Jeremy Greiner

568 posts in 1523 days


#7 posted 07-29-2012 10:58 PM

I do have my dust collector on a separate circuit than the rest of my machines for that very reason/

-- Easy to use end grain cutting board designer: http://www.1024studios.com/cuttingboard.html

View lanwater's profile

lanwater

3100 posts in 1685 days


#8 posted 07-31-2012 06:03 AM

I was contemplating the same thing as you.
Buy a cyclone or retrofit.

upgrade your jet with the super dust deputy.
I did my upgrade a couple of weeks ago and I am amazed at the result.
My JDS DC retrofited with the super dust deputy actually increased suction.
Prety much nothing goes in the bag.

-- Abbas, Castro Valley, CA

View kizerpea's profile

kizerpea

746 posts in 1118 days


#9 posted 07-31-2012 10:17 AM

jeremy
I was having the same prolm . with the plan from wood mag i built my own, check out my projects on my home pps..did it on a budget to..spent less than $ 200.00 on the cyclone an the filter….i just super sized the plan.

-- IF YOUR NOT MAKING DUST...YOU ARE COLLECTING IT! SOUTH CAROLINA.

View djg's profile

djg

104 posts in 913 days


#10 posted 07-31-2012 10:19 AM

If you want to get serious about dust collection you should read Bill Pentz’ site. It’s is a virtual treasure trove of information. With a 16×25 space I will tell you that a collector less than 2 HP will not be useful to you. If you wish to capture the dust at the source you need to move a massive amount of air, at least 800-1000 CFM at the tool. This requires a large impeller (14”) and large ducts (6”-7”). Any duct smaller will not support the airflow since compression of the moving air in the ductwork is negligible. The 1 1/2 HP collectors typically cannot do this when connected to a ducting system. Most of the collectors are spec’ed with an open inlet. As soon as you connect a duct you choke the airflow, increase air resistance (static pressure), and therefore see a massive decrease in the volume of air the system can move.

Anything without a measured fan curve showing system performance should be looked with some skepticism. The numbers are not real. They tell us what we want to hear but in the end do not show us what we want to see: real dust collection with large air volumes.

I recently did a review of the G0440 2HP cyclone where I did measurements using a digital manometer (used to measure air velocity and static pressure). I did my measurements ala the Bill Pentz prescription. My results were good. The measured fan curve was quite similar to the manufacturers (Grizzly has fan curves on their cyclone spec sheets). Have a look through the reviews for it. You may find it useful. For a garage your size you will be operating in the 4-7 range for the curve. Keep in mind that this fan curve has not been measured in a shop situation for those measurements. Adding more ducting, flex hose, machine hoods, all adds static pressure to the system and decreases air flow. So does loading the filter. I will tell you that I have now done measurements for each of my machines (all connected to 6” ports) and the measurements are good. I am sitting above 900 CFM for each. Grizzly specs the collector at 1300 CFM ( 2” static pressure) which is similar to what I measured as you will see from the resulting fan curve. My results show that Grizzly (at least) doesn’t appear to be cooking their measured data. I will note that adding ducting, flexhose and machine hoods have dropped the air flow by 30% in some cases! This is why the fan curve is sooo important! It gives you a view into the real world! I will be posting my latest measurements soon.

Just to comment on lanwater’s claim, although it may give good separation results, does not mean you have better dust collection. Good dust collection means collecting as much dust at source as possible, then separating, then filtering. I am not sure about his setup but it seems that he may be talking air about air velocity. Air velocity is just one part of the equation. A vacuum moves air quickly at high static pressure so the air velocity in the hose is quite large. For example at 2” hose on a shop vac moving 200 CFM will be moving the air at around 9000 fps. However in a 4” duct the speed drops to 2300! This is not even enough to keep dust chips in suspension and will lead to excessive clogging in the duc system. All I can say is that anytime you convert a single stage collector into a double stage by addition of a cyclonic separator, you add air resistance and therefore static pressure to the system. An increase in static pressure always decreases airflow. Your 1100 CFM machine is probably now only moving about 70% of that number. Adding a speparator will decrease it more again.

As for filtration, a filter is only as good as the separation makes it. If the separation is lousy, the filter will clog frequently. you also need to ensure that the manufacturer posts some type of efficiency numbers. HEPA is 99.97% of everyting above 0.3 microns. The grizzly spec looks good but there is no way to compare them to hepa. They have published 99.9% above 0.2 microns. This is good, but without there being a collection efficiency number at 0.3 microns there is now way to compare the two without speculation.

Before I finish my rant, I will say that first line of attack should be a good HEPA dust mask, then dust collection at source, then an air scrubber. An air quality monitor in the shop would also be useful to determine if your collection efforts are working and when it is safe to take off your mask. I plan on purchasing the Dylos particle counter. it’s fairly cheap and appears to have good reviews on the woodworking forums.

Phew…that was a mouthful! Have a look at my review of G0440.

-- DJG

View djg's profile

djg

104 posts in 913 days


#11 posted 07-31-2012 10:22 AM

I should also mention that during my testing I also measured current using a clamp on ammeter for varying airflow. The currents measured never reached the name plate amperage of 14A which does seem high for a 2HP motor…My highest current was 10.2 amps. This was measured with all blast gates open and drawing about 1100 CFM.

-- DJG

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

2045 posts in 1244 days


#12 posted 07-31-2012 11:18 AM

Excellent reply by dlg! If you go to the Pentz site, start with the FAQ section to avoid getting drowned in the techno-babble. One more thing, I have the Oneida SDG, and find the separation to be not up to my expectations. If I use my drum sander heavily (a common occurrence) I can see the filter gauge climb as I work. The Oneida follows none of the Pentz design criteria, and so it sends a lot of the very finest particles to the filter. My system performs per Oneida specs (99% filtration, and yes, I measured it and i get 98.4%) but that’s not good enough. I often have to clean the filter twice per 35 gallon drum of chips. I put the Magnehelic gauge on just to keep track of the filter build up.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View djg's profile

djg

104 posts in 913 days


#13 posted 07-31-2012 11:55 AM

If you “commission” your machine with a set of base measurements you will know the response of the system when the filter is clean. When I measured my fan curve I also measured motor amperage. Since the motor amperage is related to air flow, you can used a clamp-on ammeter to approximately measure the CFM without a magnehelic although a magnehelic is also a great solution. A cheap Princess Auto (Harbour Freight) clamp on ammeter costs less than $15 and should be adequate to ball park the CFM as long as you have taken time to measure the fan curve for the system before you start using it. It will give you some idea about when the filters are loaded and are in need of cleaning.

-- DJG

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

2045 posts in 1244 days


#14 posted 07-31-2012 12:45 PM

Yes, that’s true…but I didn’t do that when it was new. My system has underwent so many changes since it was new (including a complete motor swap) that any info I would have had at that time would be incorrect. But I did check the amps (that’s why there’s a bigger motor on it now) to determeine if i was overloading the thing, turns out my duct work was too efficient for the blower. I can’t do a fan curve since I don’t have a pitot tube. Back to the gauge, the magnehelic was only $20 from e-bay and on line all the time so it was a minimal addition, and a useful one.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View djg's profile

djg

104 posts in 913 days


#15 posted 07-31-2012 12:59 PM

Jeremy, I think Fred’s suggestion is great for your situation. If you do not want to invest in a pitot and manometer you should consider purchase a magnehelic on e-bay. Use it as a gauge to determine when your filters have overloaded. When you install it on your new system you can get a static pressure measurement snapshot of your unloaded filter.

-- DJG

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