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Dodgy dadoes

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Forum topic by muleskinner posted 07-18-2012 06:17 PM 2734 views 1 time favorited 30 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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muleskinner

740 posts in 1187 days


07-18-2012 06:17 PM

The other day in my project comments I bemoaned my lousy dado set. It seems I may have been a little harsh. Last night I was fiddling around making a finger joint jig and a zero clearance insert for a ¼ in dado. While fiddling around I had an epiphany.

The shoulder on my arbor is .625 in. diameter and maybe slightly wider than 1/8 in. Where the threads are cut the arbor is .615 in. Consequently all blades after the first are .01 in. off from the first. Aside from a ragged dado, vibration from the imbalance is disconcerting. Any suggestions? (Grizzly TSC-10 table saw and Avanti dado set)

-- Visualize whirled peas


30 replies so far

View hhhopks's profile

hhhopks

565 posts in 1128 days


#1 posted 07-18-2012 07:17 PM

Why don’t you add a vibration washer/stablizer as your first component, then add the dado components?

Have you also check the flatness of your table top. I have problems with cuts for ever until I discover the top was warp. If you got warp table, there isn’t much you can do. Just make sure the next TS that you get that the flatness is a must check item.

The other thing is wobble blades where the wobble is not actually coming from the blade but from the arbor flange. As you tighten the nut, the compression cause the blade to be distorted. The flange must spin in a plane perpendicular to the arbor axis. Woble could mess up you cuts and dados as well. Here in LJ, there is a post on flatten the flange (search for woble saw blades). You should also flatten the washer too. It know it work, because I have tried it.

-- I'll be a woodworker when I grow up. HHHOPKS

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

3564 posts in 1564 days


#2 posted 07-18-2012 07:25 PM

Help us understand the problem a little better…
What brand of tablesaw?
What brand of dado?
Wobble blade or true stacked dado set?

I have had such good results with my freud dado set, that I would recommend it to anyone.

Thanks

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5604 posts in 2126 days


#3 posted 07-18-2012 08:14 PM

Muleskinner, hope you get things worked out.

Not trying to throw stones at your dado set, but as a PSA/FYI to would be blade shoppers …. the “Avanti” series used to be manufactured by Freud and was very similar to their well regarded value minded Diablo line, but they discontinued it in June 2009 due to a lot of overlap in the lineups. Since then, HD has been selling saw blades using the “Avanti” and “Avanti Pro” name…..they’re not made by Freud, are not associated with Freud, are not copies of Freud’s design…they’re mediocre blades at best, and are simply cheap Chinese knockoffs that have similar printing on the blades as Freud used. They’re poor enough quality that I wouldn’t suggest using them for woodworking….aside from the lack of quality, I find preying on unsuspecting consumers pretty distasteful, and will avoid them completely as a matter of protest.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View muleskinner's profile

muleskinner

740 posts in 1187 days


#4 posted 07-19-2012 12:29 PM

hhhopsk – the table’s flat and there’s no vibration with my regular blades (freuds). It’s a stacked set, precisely what knottscott has pictured. I did try adding another washer (off my RAS) and the cut improved a little but the vibration was still present.

knottscott – throw all the stones you want. I fully realize it’s not a top of the line set. The teeth on the outside blades are not flat set which causes the corners to be not exactly square or the bottom flat. It’s not too much of a problem to clean up in softwood or plywood but more work in hard woods. What I’m wondering, with the .01” difference in arbor diameter, is would I be still be having the uneveness problems with a more professional set.

pinto – it’s a Grizzly TSC-10 table saw (1986 vintage) and a Avanti Pro 8” stacked set.

-- Visualize whirled peas

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

2044 posts in 1244 days


#5 posted 07-19-2012 02:18 PM

My guess (and that’s what it is) would be that you would still have those problems. That said, my dado set does not cut bottoms that are baby butt smooth, rather you can almost count the number of chippers I’m using looking at the cut…and this is with a Freud SD508 set. A not-so-good solution (but not too bad either) might be to cut your dados a little shallow, then clean the bottoms up with a dado clean out bit in your router. This makes a lot more work, but works well when you do want smoother cuts. I may measure the arbor on my saw later, (Delta) what you have may be the norm and I just don’t realize it.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View muleskinner's profile

muleskinner

740 posts in 1187 days


#6 posted 07-19-2012 06:16 PM

Fred – I believe you’re right but I’ll probably still eventually upgrade to something with flat teeth. I’d be interested to know what you find on your arbor. I checked the arbor on my Craftsman RAS and it was nuts on .625 the entire length and an old Red Star Multiplex RAS only varied a varied from .750 to .747.

Most of the time I don’t really care because most of my dadoes end up in case work or shelving units and either wind up in the shop or are face framed. But now I was thinking of making some finger joint boxes and was hoping for a better looking finish. Oh well.

-- Visualize whirled peas

View teejk's profile

teejk

1215 posts in 1435 days


#7 posted 07-19-2012 06:35 PM

delta uses a fixed flange washer to start the blade set beyond the non-threaded side (i.e. all I ever see are threads). I’d try a BIG flat washer to try to emulate that.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5604 posts in 2126 days


#8 posted 07-19-2012 11:20 PM

Mule – I failed to mention in my first reply that every decent dado set I know will leave minor grooves or “bat ears” along the edges due to the bevel top grind on the outside cutters. Forrest, Infinity, Freud, Ridge Carbide, Tenryu, CMT, Amana, Systimatic, DeWalt/Delta, Onsrud, Oshlun…they’ve all got them. The bevel grind is intentional to reduce tearout on cross grain dados….in order for that grind to be effective, those pointy tips on the beveled teeth have to protrude slightly above the flat ground teeth of the inside chippers. Some of the better sets reduce the effect of those bat ears by combining a few flat ground teeth on the outside cutters between the beveled teeth, but tiny bat ears still exist to some degree. There are some box joint sets that have flat top ground teeth, but most are intended for cuts with the grain where tearout is less of an issue.

Here’s a pic from a set that has fairly typical bat ears:

Here’s a pic from a set that has much smaller bat ears (they are there, but they’re small):


Seeing as though most dados are hidden, it’s usually not a problem.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View OnlyJustME's profile

OnlyJustME

1562 posts in 1128 days


#9 posted 07-20-2012 12:53 AM

Just an FYI Lowes has clearanced out the CMT 8” 12 tooth stack dado set (same design as the $100 freud diablo) to carry the new Irwin Marples dado set. Last i saw it was down to $34.00. I got one and it works nice. Has the typical bat ears as shown by knotscott’s first pic. I almost got 2 of them.

-- In the end, when your life flashes before your eyes, will you like what you see?

View muleskinner's profile

muleskinner

740 posts in 1187 days


#10 posted 07-20-2012 01:27 AM

Knottscott – thanks for the info. Maybe I’m just expecting too much from mine. It’s beginning to look like I’ll have to go the router route to get my clean box joints.

Justme – sadly there’s no Lowes withing a 2 hour drive or I’d give those a try. Good luck with yours.

-- Visualize whirled peas

View lumberjoe's profile

lumberjoe

2847 posts in 999 days


#11 posted 07-20-2012 01:39 AM

My arbor is identical to the way yours is. The first blade I put on in the stack is always REALLY hard to get off compared to the others, but I get really flat cuts, and the tiny bat ears. While I kind of find those annoying, I really appreciated them when I had to cut veneered plywood.

That Avanti pro set gets extremely poor reviews almost unanimously. I understand you want to make it work because you own it, but that’s likely as good as you are going to get. I have the entry level Freud Industrial set (SD208, 100$) and I don’t see that in hard or soft wood.

If you want REALLY flat bottoms with no bat ears, and don’t want to buy another dado set, pick up the freud SBOX8 box joint set. It cuts 1/4” and 3/8” widths. You’d have to make multiple passes to get anything more that that, but I usually “seak up” on dadoes anyway.

-- www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

View gfadvm's profile

gfadvm

11536 posts in 1441 days


#12 posted 07-20-2012 02:01 AM

+1 on the Freud box joint cutters! No bat ears and flat bottoms. A little pricy but I love mine and they have been indestructable so far (still scary sharp after cutting hedge,jatoba,pecan, and lots of box joints and dados. The best $100 investment I’ve made in a while.

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

View muleskinner's profile

muleskinner

740 posts in 1187 days


#13 posted 07-20-2012 02:13 PM

lumberjoe and gfadvm – I just bit the bullet on the Freud box cutters. $67 through Router Warehouse via Amazon. By this time next week, if I’m still having problems it’ll be time to stop blaming the tools and start blaming the workman. Joe, there’s no chance that my review of the Avanti blades would raise their rating. My arbor issues aside (for which I can’t fault them), they produce terrible tear out which I do fault to them.

Thanks for all the advice and information.

-- Visualize whirled peas

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gfadvm

11536 posts in 1441 days


#14 posted 07-21-2012 12:35 AM

”$67” Ya done good!

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

View lumberjoe's profile

lumberjoe

2847 posts in 999 days


#15 posted 07-21-2012 01:08 AM

Let us know how you like it! That is a smoking deal.

-- www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

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