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Forum topic by americanwoodworker posted 07-08-2012 04:58 PM 1971 views 0 times favorited 87 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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americanwoodworker

181 posts in 1026 days


07-08-2012 04:58 PM

I have been reading some snippets here and there from LJer’s that say politics needs to be banned from this forum. Mainly i assume, because of people like this DKV character. But I want to challenge your thinking on this issue. Politics I believe effects every single aspect of your lives. From your religion, hobbies, food, to the clothes you wear.

Right now some of you who own woodworking businesses will be affected by healthcare…Politics.
Some of you want to open a shop but can’t because of regulations…politics.
A woodworking guild in a major city close to me had to stop building toys for less fortunate children because of a new law that was passed by congress…Politics.

Do you see? Politics is very important in forums such as lumberjocks. Don’t let people like DKV ruin it and cause you to silence all. After reading posts from you explaining that DKV causes problems I went back and read some of his discussions and I have to agree. He does not encourage a productive thought process. But rather a divisive process. Guess what I will ignore the guy. If he starts a new topic I will not participate. If he responds here I will not reply. Simple.

So I challenge the rest of you. Don’t participate in unproductive political debates. Don’t respond to divisive comments. But do not turn your head away from politics! Some of you have said if you want to talk politics you will go to a political forum. Good. But I bet you NEVER go to one. You just don’t like the subject. Not trying to knock you in any way. I just don’t think people know how to honestly discuss politics because they don’t understand our political system or our Constitution. Learn it. You will be amazed at how much more productive and civil a debate can be.

First tip… When you are debating and someone calls you a hate monger, a racist, a non-christian or takes the conversation to a moronic level then it’s time to leave. No more will be accomplished by that discussion.

Just my two cents. Now I’m off to admire all of your projects!

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.


87 replies so far

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7712 posts in 2705 days


#1 posted 07-08-2012 06:48 PM

Amen!

Couldn’t have said it better!

Thank you very much!

Politics has a huge bearing on our lives… if one ignores it, they will just be sadly surprised when something they used to do, can’t be done anymore… Then, they bad-mouth the Government… and if they had known what was going on, they may have been able to change the course of the law(s) that made them unhappy!

I’ve often wondered WHY people just Didn’t Like Politics… You said it very well.

Again… Thank you very much!

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

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hobby1

282 posts in 950 days


#2 posted 07-08-2012 06:59 PM

americanwoodworker

I have never read such a “mature”, kindly spoken, direct to the point, yet very perfect in explanation kind of comment in this forum as what you just wrote.

It was like reading something Godsent, I don’t mean to sound…...bla bla bla,,

but this post is the most mature, perfect post on this subject, that only someone with considerably mature, honest downright,knowledgable person with excellent ways of writing things, can do…

I cannot express the excellent job you did in bringing this to light, its beyond words, how you wrote this with extremely excellent approach.....

Keep up the great penmenship, as well as your woodworking…

PS:

Please take this as a complement.

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SCOTSMAN

5361 posts in 2238 days


#3 posted 07-08-2012 07:02 PM

We should be able as mature adults be able to discuss topics which concern us with poitical discussions. I agree very good post.Over here we seem to be able to discuss politics without upsetting each other maybe that’s the problem some people not all feel very angry when you say anything against their particular grain of political persuasion.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

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helluvawreck

15782 posts in 1519 days


#4 posted 07-08-2012 07:12 PM

We were suppose to have been a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. To me this means we were suppose to govern ourselves from the bottom up, very much like a pyramid, with the people at the base. I think that instead we are very much like a people that are now governed from the top down. Why has this come about other than a lack of participation from those who are governed?

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

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Joe Lyddon

7712 posts in 2705 days


#5 posted 07-08-2012 07:37 PM

Charles…

I think it is a function of just being lackadaisyical … and the “Let someone else do it” attitude… taking it for granted…

I used to be somewhat that way until I saw what was happening that I didn’t like for our Country… then, I became interested… IMHO, this is the most critical time in our Nations History for everyone to be interested in what’s happening and speaking out about it to your elected officials.

If we do not become interested and just let the people at the Top do it, who have figured out how to get their own agenda in force, that is probably not agreeable to you, you will wake-up one day facing changes that you do NOT LIKE… at that time, it will be harder to fix… if ever possible to do so…
Communicate with your elected Officials

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View David Kirtley's profile

David Kirtley

1281 posts in 1651 days


#6 posted 07-08-2012 07:55 PM

Joe,

I think you are wrong. I think the biggest problem is that both the parties in place have locked out everyone else with the committee system. Nobody we elect can do anything unless they bow down to the party leaderships. We don’t dare remove incumbents once they get on powerful committees. Add to that, once elected, they only people they are interested in listening to are the people with the deep pockets to fund their next election.

Both parties put on the big show of pointing fingers and calling each other names to make it look like they are doing something and then just go back to the country club and laugh at all of us for being fools.

The difference between the leadership of the Republicans and Democrats is indistinguishable. I think George Orwell would be amazed by the accuracy of his predictions.

-- Woodworking shouldn't cost a fortune: http://lowbudgetwoodworker.blogspot.com/

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Joe Lyddon

7712 posts in 2705 days


#7 posted 07-08-2012 08:05 PM

OK David,

If one does not care… and just gives up because they think it’s impossible to make difference, & DO NOTHING instead… is part of the problem.

That type of thinking is exactly what is wrong today… and I think we can turn it around if we stick to it…

If you don’t think that way, sorry… Good Luck.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

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americanwoodworker

181 posts in 1026 days


#8 posted 07-08-2012 08:20 PM

I am glad to see I have made myself clear. I appreciate your kind responses.

Joe I believe you are correct. We have put our elected leaders on auto pilot. Just believing what they say and not watching what they do. Now it has become what will YOU do for ME. Our school curriculum is now based on an agenda rather that the truth. Our children are coming out of school without an understanding of history. They have never read the Constitution or the bill of rights. They have never read diary’s from our founding fathers and mothers.

Most don’t know that there is no “separation of church and state” in our constitution. Yet they believe it, because they are told it’s there so they take their word for it. It’s hard to believe that at one time in our history people actually carried the Constitution around and brought it out during debates with their peers in order to provide evidence for their stance.

Right and left are the same anymore and that’s what we need to understand. We need to understand it’s all about freedom now. It amazes me that the Proponents of the healthcare law never stop to ask why their leaders are exempt from what is said to be such a great piece of legislation. That, among other things scares me. Nobody wants to be left out of something thats good. That is human nature.

Thank you for posting the link to congress.org!

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.

View David Kirtley's profile

David Kirtley

1281 posts in 1651 days


#9 posted 07-08-2012 08:25 PM

The Tea Party (which originally was non-partisan) got taken over by the far right and absorbed into the Republicans, the Occupy Movement on the left has basically fizzled by stupidly trying to get things changed by martyrdom rather than building a real organization. The Libertarians have made no headway in many years other than to amuse people. The only positive thing that happened a few years ago was when the Congressional Freshmen joined forces but that went nowhere.

Probably the only thing that can push them out is total fiscal collapse. Well, at least the way things are going, it won’t take too long. I sure don’t see anything changing except for the worse on either side of the aisle.

-- Woodworking shouldn't cost a fortune: http://lowbudgetwoodworker.blogspot.com/

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Howie

2656 posts in 1576 days


#10 posted 07-08-2012 08:33 PM

Vote!

-- Life is good.

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waho6o9

4915 posts in 1229 days


#11 posted 07-08-2012 08:47 PM

” It amazes me that the Proponents of the healthcare law never stop to ask why their leaders are exempt from what is said to be such a great piece of legislation. That, among other things scares me. Nobody wants to be left out of something thats good. That is human nature.”

You are very perceptive Americanwoodworker.

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americanwoodworker

181 posts in 1026 days


#12 posted 07-08-2012 08:49 PM

David,

I believe the only reason why we have the same ol’ same ol’ is because we are not informed. People hold office for so long because it’s more about name recognition than qualifications. Also, because people do not vote. Look at many of the elections the past several years. Barney frank for one, He has not had to really go out and earn votes because he has been in so long and people just didn’t care. Then during his last election he came very close to losing it because more people came out to vote. Barney had to actually campaign again.

Now let me come back to one important thing. The Constitution. If people read the constitution for what it says, then they would understand that in reality the States are more powerful then the federal Government. Start at home and vote in the right people. A good friend of mine now serves in office here. I flat out told him that if he ever decides to start doing things in order to maintain power I would vote against him. They must stay true to morals. He does stuff that I do not agree with sometimes but that is natural. There is no perfect candidate. He and his wife sit around while our kids play together and we have have debates and discuss issues. I learn alot from him and he from me. He tells people that they must call him if they have issues so he can research them and discuss them with his peers. That is what you want. Start at home.

Now they have split up our districts and will have a new rep. soon. I have decided the main issues that concern me the most now is healthcare, taxes and spending. What are his views and why? What are his Plans for those subjects? If he gives me talking points and not what I feel are his true words, meaning it sounds like he is reading from a script or anxious to leave and not discuss it, then I will not vote for him. Remember if you feel you have false choices then run for local government yourself. My wife suggested it to me just yesterday.

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.

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Tedster

2271 posts in 864 days


#13 posted 07-08-2012 09:17 PM

I agree that the Non-shop Talk forum should be open to politics, religion, and all other matters of a non-shop nature. However, I don’t feel it should be open to anybody who signs up as a member. They should earn the right to participate in the Non-shop Talk forum, by being an ACTIVE part of this WOODWORKING community. There are some people who clearly intend nothing more than to stir up trouble, and they should not be allowed to do that. This forum needs at least one active moderator to keep things in order around here. ShipWreck did a pretty good job at proving that point (thanks ShipWreck, hope you don’t get booted).

-- I support the 28th Amendment. http://www.wolf-pac.com/28th

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chrisstef

10829 posts in 1659 days


#14 posted 07-08-2012 09:23 PM

AWW youve set forth a good tone on this post not tipping one side or another so kudos for that. Im going to throw my take at it and up front ill let you know im not a politics guy.

My feeling for a long time is that we are victims of the media. I beleive that we are never never given unbiased news. Fox news tips to one side, ABC to the other, and there is a very divisive split among all of our major media outlets. The ability to obtain unbiased news forces us to typically follow those media outlets we most closely agree with. The problem is, that it is all propoganda and filled with agendas (my feelings here).

Being a person who doesnt much read into politics i could not tell you where i could find a news source where i could read cold hard facts. If there was, and this stuff wasnt written by lawyers and people with such twisted tongues, i may be compelled to delve into such information. I dont have the time unfortunately to read into the laws being passed, listen to each side of the arguement, and make my own educated decision. Im sure most people would agree that this is their situation as well. Therefore, we believe what we hear from the like minded, never giving the other side of thought a chance.

This inability to spend the time properly informing and educating ourselves only fuels the fire of politics. Like you said, politics effects every one of us, from just about every angle. This feeling of being controlled, regulated, over taxed, and let down bothers people. It down right pisses people off. Mad to the point they become fanatical. Uninformed fanatics is what this has lead to. Kind of scary stuff as far as im concerned.

Like i said i cant sit here and argue about the new healthcare system because i know aboslutely very little about it. Maybe one day ill sit down and read 600,00 pages or whatever the hell it is but honestly, i doubt it. I very rarely get involved in these kinda topics but those are my thought and feelings, take it as you will.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

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americanwoodworker

181 posts in 1026 days


#15 posted 07-08-2012 09:41 PM

Ted,

It would be hard to be a moderator of politics in my opinion. How would you know when you should delete something without your views controlling your decision? That’s why I feel it would be your responsibility to not participate in a mindless discussion. If someone makes a racial discussion like DKV did a little while ago I just skipped to the next subject. I don’t need to kill off more brain cells. That happens every year as you age. Why supercharge it?

Chris,

You make a valid point. You almost have to have passed the bar examination to understand these laws. Luckily that’s not so with the Constitution. A 6th grader can read it. If it’s not written in the constitution the FEDERAL Government can not do it. Your STATE can as all powers not listed are reserved to the STATES. I do find it helpful to watch the talking heads debate things on television and radio because it’s their job and they have money for lawyers to explain it. When they bring something up as in the Healthcare I look it up to see if it is true. Problem is you have to listen to both sides of the argument and take what you learn from them and do your own research. By research make sure it says what they claim it says. Let others point out what they feel is relevant to their sides of the argument and then form your own opinion. Then debate it with others on forums like this. BUT AVOID THOSE THAT LIKE TO POST IDIOTIC PICTURES OF OBAMAS FACE ON CLOWNS OR CALL PEOPLE NAMES. It accomplishes nothing. But Chris, you have to make time. Might I recommend a book to you? It is called the 5000 year leap by W. Cleon Skousen. It is EXTREMELY easy to read and it is politically neutral. Helps you understand the founders vision and how they came about forming this country. One of my Favorites of all time.

So far have you guys seen how this has been civil? It is productive and I appreciate it.

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.

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