pls believe Chinese plywood

What is the chinese wood telling me?

-- Glenn, New Mexico

I can’t tell if you’re trying to sell Chinese plywood through LumberJocks or if you’re just trying to say that Chinese plywood is better than people are saying it is.

-- Eric at http://adventuresinwoodworking.com

I’ve had good experiences with Chinese birch ply. It’s maybe
not as stable as baltic birch but it’s okay for a lot of work.

-- Would you like to recession-proof your present business using the internet? - my revealing 9-page free report gives you the straight facts: http://copymatch.com/rec/cap.html

Sorry, Miki. I can’t afford to buy any more chinese plywood. The sheets that I bought were glue-starved and delaminated like crazy. They were also terribly warped as a result. The upfront price was cheap, but the additional labor cost to use the stuff was way too high.

-- The days are long and the years are short...

Nope. The “cabinet grade” plywood made by SamLingUSA was pure junk. And Lowes did give me my money back.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

I buy Chinese birch plywood from the same hardwood distributor that I buy my furniture lumber from. I don’t know the brand, but I’ve had real good luck with it. 3/4” runs about $29 a sheet. Don’t know what they get for it at Lowes or Home Depot, but it’s been worth it for me. I’ve been using it for the cabinets in my new house. I use it for the basic structure of the cabinets then I cover it with 1/4” Ash plywood and it saves me about $20 per 4’ x8’ sheet. 3/4” Ash runs about $75- 80.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

it’s about $45-$55 dollars a sheet at lowes and home depot. and it’s not worth it.
When you cut it, it delaminates and warps like nothing i’ve ever seen.
If you want people to buy it and accept it as a quality product, then you need to institute better qualty control procedures.
I know grizzly tools has alot of there machinery made in china, my bandsaw was made there. It’s a good saw, but grizzly makes a point of using very good quality control procedures when making it.
Try that with the plywood and see what happens.

Watch out people, the dragon is loose and there is no stopping it. China is coming hard and fast.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

I recall a Chinese wood company representative posting here some time back. We were a bit rough on him, but he took it like a man and gave good answers. The upshot was that he said that Chinese companies could certainly make a better product, but the cost would be higher and they would have to be sure of a profitable market. Can’t blame them for that. The problem lies with American companies that demand the lowest possible cost and to heck with the quality. As long as this satisfies the majority of their customers (in dollar amounts), nothing is going to change.

-- Robert from Raymond, MS. "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence is therefore not a practice, but a habit." - Aristotle

Is there anything wrong with grading the product in such a manner that the consumer can tell what grade the importer has purchased?

ie. A1, A B C, D, Borg etc.

The Far East market must begin to do this or they will most certainly lose their market share and quickly.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I made a trip to the lumber yard today and was educated a little more on the grades of China birch that the county is selling. This yard carries C-1 grade, which means it’s birch plys through out. A C-2 would be birch on the outside and who knows what on the inside. The salesman told me that most of the big box stores are carrying an E-? grade, which is the stuff that is rolling up and full of voids. The grading system is a little different than the US but I don’t think the big box stores know what they’re selling anyway.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

Tenontrim:

I don’t care if the boxes have no clue, I just want some way to see what I’m paying for.
If it takes legislation so be it.
I believe in free enterprise and capitalism but not in deception.
Let me be the one to make the chioce of quality.
Interesting that the offshore guys have an standard that apparently the borgs are not willing to share with us.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I guess the answer, Bob, is to buy from a yard that will tell you what you’re getting. Like I said originally, $29 for a 3/4” 4×8 isn’t bad. If you can’t find out what you’re buying at one store, go where they will tell you.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

bob and Tenontrim:

yeah , both of you said the truth . the people whoever work on buying do should know what they have pay for . that make the buyer feel worthy to buy it. here , we do .

-- Everything is possible!

Actually, I DID find a use for some Chinese plywood that looked more like a longbow than sheet goods <chuckle> If you cut it into 6” squares, it makes great gussets for sawhorse legs!

Not much else, though… It’d take a lot of sawhorses to use it up.

I’d rather pay a little more. Like you, Bob, I just want a way to know what I’m getting.

-- Robert from Raymond, MS. "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence is therefore not a practice, but a habit." - Aristotle

All right Miki, since no one has, I’ll ask the obvious question here.

Why make that low of grade of finished plywood in the first place?

It is unfit for any use, cabinets, toy chests, book cases, that I can see.
It is unstable, full of voids and the veneer is paper thin.
If it gets wet it becomes a breeding ground for fungus, both imported and domestic.

Personally, I do not believe the buyers here are being told the truth about the China grading system, specifications or quality. Not that they would care until the law suites started flying…

The bottom line is that the communist Chinese have a documented history of flooding the U.S. and world markets with dangerous products, like toys with lead based paint and toothpaste containing diethylene glycol (DEG). DEG is used in antifreeze and as a solvent.

Why should we believe their “Cabinet Grade” plywood is any different?

-- .

The other thing to remember here is that our local supplier (Lowes) is stocking the “Maple faced 3/4” cabinet grade, SamLingUSA” brand…and they still do today. It’s what we get. It’s what they (Lowes) ordered. It’s not your brand; whatever your brand may be. And it cost me $55.00 per sheet.

I agree that some Chinese brands have to be better and I believe that anything would be better, but the only choice we have at this time is not to buy the stuff!

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Miki, in all fairness to you, I would be willing to give your stuff a try. What brand is it marketed under, and where can I get a few sheets?

-- The days are long and the years are short...

well , firstly , the low grade plywood is a little part people’s action . secondly ,how can we scale the “low grade ” plywood ? maybe they just produce that kind of plywood according to your price . or we can say your price just worh that kind of plywood . I am not sure my views can satisfy u . but i will privide the product worth your pay.

-- Everything is possible!

”well , firstly , the low grade plywood is a little part people’s action .”

I don’t understand. Who’s reaction and what are they reacting to?

”secondly ,how can we scale the “low grade ” plywood ? maybe they just produce that kind of plywood according to your price . or we can say your price just worh that kind of plywood .”

That wont fly Miki. It is either cabinet grade plywood or it isn’t cabinet grade plywood.
What is being sold as cabinet grade is nothing more than interior grade plywood with a very thin veneer.
The question is; Was it ordered that way or did you simply deem us not worthy of cabinet grade like we ordered or did you decide you would cut costs on your end by changing your grade specs. to suit your fancy?

”I am not sure my views can satisfy u . but i will privide the product worth your pay.”

Your views towards your customers are obvious.
I can and do buy domestic plywood. I pay much more for it than yours. It is high quality, and worth the cost.
So why aren’t you making and selling a comparable quality product that meet OUR specifications?
Obviously there is a market for this product or it wouldn’t be produced.

-- .

BroDave,
”I don’t understand. Who’s reaction and what are they reacting to?_

u can’t assure everybody is righteous. so someone wanna own benifit from this kind of way. that is little people’s action.

some one wanna low price but high quality ,don’t u think that is possible? price and quality is direct proportion . this is turth nobody can change .*

if high quality can at so low price , then general quality can at what price??

-- Everything is possible!

Chinese plywood has now flooded the market so throughly with low quality products that it is very difficult to find good plywood. American mills are shutting down. What’s happening to us!!!!

-- "Heaven is North of the Bridge"

Just say NO ! ..until proof

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

Look, I saw this when it originally was posted 116 days ago. I resisted responding then. Now I won’t.

The last plywood I saw at HD I rejected immediately. The plys were separating as the plywood sat on the shelf. I don’t know what it was, but it was certainly NOT plywood. So I didn’t buy it.

And that is the key; if it is shit, then DON”T BUY IT! Moreover, make sure that you call the store cluck over and explain exactly why you aren’t buying it. Then, find the department sales manager and tell him why you aren’t buying it. Then, locate the e-mail address of the CEO for HD (OK, maybe I am stretching here) and tell him why you aren’t buying it.

And, Miki, sorry if you are caught in the middle, but: if the only example of Chinese plywood that we see in the states is the kind of shit that I described above, then our opinions of Chinese plywood in particular and Chinese products in general are going to be exactly what you have read here. Are the Chinese so infatuated with the almighty dollar that they are willing to destroy their reputations by selling cheap shit into the US. If so, then they rightly deserve the reputation they are getting!

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

so far i have not had good luck with chinese ply and i will not use it again unless i get a really cheap customer.

-- Roper - Master of sawdust-

My suppliers sell cheap, but usable plywood. It has its uses but the stuff passed off at HomeDespot and lowerthanLowes is pretty much junk. I’m afraid to build with it. Why do we keep shopping there? It isn’t the prices. Sure some stuff is cheap, but they sure make up for it with the little bags of 10 screws for $1.35.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I ended up finding a local ply dealer who does nothing but plywood. It costs $10 more a sheet for domestic A1 grade Maple plywood than the HD or Lowes crap stuff and I will never buy plywood from anywhere else again. I could actually see the thickness of veneer on this plywood and I am not worried about sanding through the top level anymore.

-Rich

-- Rich, WNY, www.nyrockingchairs.com

On my trips between Gainesville Florida and the U.P. I often stop at the Frank Miller Lumber Company in Union City IN. (www.frankmiller.com) They are located about 55 miles NW of Dayton.

This great “candy store” for woodworkers is now selling high quality domestic and imported plywood. HD and Lowes can go pound sand.

-- "Heaven is North of the Bridge"

I have to ask . . .

Is there a way to look at the plywood edges, facing, etc. to judge the grade of birch or maple plywood we are about to buy? What should we look for? What should we ask? I am assuming what I would be looking at wouldn’t be de-laminating and have voids which are obvious indications of poor grade.

Rufus

-- Always remember half of the people in this country are below average.

Also check the thickness of the face veneer. The cheaper grades are almost impossible to sand. Then again in lots of cheap furniture and cabinetry it is noting more than a picture of wood.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I as many have made the mistake of buying this less than acceptable plywood, warpage does not begin to describe that material it is horrible and I agree if we stop buying the JUNK! hopefully it will go away soon.
Maybe the Chinese will discover we want a better product and they are wasting thier time sending it here to the US.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim

-- Can't never could do anything, to try is to advance.

This is a blant commercial poster..
she has no projects just commercials please delete this fool..

-- Bruce

Maybe as Americans, we should just suck up the extrat 10-15$ and buy American made plywood. I am just plain sick and tired of hearing people complain about jobs and manufacturing being sent overseas, and then turning around and seeing the same people buying cheap foreign crap. I know eveyone has to think about the bottom dollar, and every dollar counts, but supporting our country keeps the money in our economy. How good can plywood being made on a barg off the coast of California be anyway. You don’t think thay are actually making that stuff in China do you?

-- http://www.efcabineture.com/ You can be tired, or you can be broke, but you should never be tired and broke.

http://www.patriottimber.com/panelprod.htm

Click around on the map and see where the Patriots live LOL

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

Chinese ply bought 1 shit… I mean sheet and it warped like crazy post cutting – so now its kindling for my campfires – works great there.
That is all

-- Doc Hanson - www.ripnchisel.com

So here’s my question. I am going to be building a work bench and a couple of tool carts. The plans call for 3/4” plywood, maple or oak. At my local HD the oak is $51.00. At my local Sanford and Hawley it is $98.00. Is it really worth that much more to go with the local store’s brand? Thanks.

-- Chip -- Manchester, Connecticut "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

I suppose it depends on wether the plywood is the same or one is more suitable for the application than the other.

Personally, I have never seen oak plywood at HD that wasn’t warped, damaged or full of voids. Maybe it’s just my local HD. Not being familiar with Sanford and Hawley I can’t comment.

I can tell you that the local lumber yard for me is Huges Hardwood. It is where the cabinet makers in town shop and their plywood is a little more than HD (far less difference than your example above) but is consistently high quality. For $98 I can get a full sheet of sapele plywood at Hughes. Oak and Maple is about $50/sheet.

-- Scott - Chico California http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net

I think the only thing I’d be interested in buying from China is Melamine. They seem to have an abundance of the stuff. Melamine baby formula, melamine dog food . . .

My shop is full of China-made, Taiwan-made as well as non-Asian made tools and supplies. My only buying criterion, be it plywood sheets or a power tool, is what kind of quality I’m aiming for. For scrap jigs, prototypes, etc. I reach for cheap stuff. For my final projects and high-end pieces, I take out my quality tools and materials. When I built my arts and crafts bookcase, I paid top dollars for the sheets according to my budget. I believe the point here is not whether China-made goods or sheets should be avoided or not, the point should be how much your budget can afford. If you can, avoid the lower grade stuff, made in China or not. We all know, goods made outside Asia can just be bad as well. Someone commented about shopping at HD. I don’t shop there because the quality of service there is poor (well almost non-existent). I am willing to pay a little more for the same sheet of plywood elsewhere I can get good service or advice. It’s no different from not buying cheap China-made products.

Btw, I have had a hard time understanding the central message Miki was trying to convey in her posts.

-- The time I enjoy wasting is not time wasted

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and thought I’d chime in. What Miki is saying is she sells plywood and will try very hard to meet your expectations if you want to try buying from her. Her responses about quality loosely translated are “If you buy the cheap stuff that HD sells then you get what you deserve. It’s cheap because that’s the grade they’re willing to pay for and also seems to be the grade that American consumers are willing to buy.”

So in essence, You get what you pay for.

IMHO…why anyone would expect to find cabinet grade plywood at a big box store is beyond me. They don’t market to craftsmen, they don’t advertise their product as cabinet grade, and they certainly don’t charge the price you’d expect to pay for cabinet grade. So where’s the problem?

It’s kind of like people digging through 2c hardwood because it’s 50 cents per bf and complaining that it’s not FAS.

Now in Miki’s case, she’s just like anyone else trying to sell something. If she has a product that she’d like people to believe is high quality she needs only to tell us where we can find it so we can see for ourselves. Another thought might be for her to send a couple samples out so we can review it. Has anyone personally contacted her an asked for a sample? Just a thought…

-- Allen, Milwaukee, WI

hi,Guys
i am plywood factory from China. i have read your comments. here, i would like to say that in order to get your order , some factories just make plywood to your price , better price, better quality
pay more to the plywood, we can give you best quality .

my email: liubingchao008@hotmail.com Moblie:+86-13820631418

hi,Guys
i am plywood factory from China. i have read your comments. here, i would like to say that in order to get your order , some factories just make plywood to your price , better price, better quality
pay more to the plywood, we can give you best quality .

my email: liubingchao008@hotmail.com Moblie:+86-13820631418

hi,Guys
i am plywood factory from China. i have read your comments. here, i would like to say that in order to get your order , some factories just make plywood to your price , better price, better quality
pay more to the plywood, we can give you best quality .

my email: liubingchao008@hotmail.com Moblie:+86-13820631418

Say What????

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Having worked in quality on part approval for items being resourced in China I would have to say that in general they do not have a firm grasp on things in general. They do have a very good grasp on coming up with unique and interesting excuses though.

The China syndrome that the world is going through ignores one of Demmings central tenants (focus on short term gains) and it pretty much the reason why quality products are impossible to find in many cases. People have just become too lazy to care and have accepted the disposable world.

The relentless drive to reduce prices to achieve ever larger market penetration has also created a society that has become to expect insane things. The story of Walmart/Vlassick and the gallon jar of pickles is a great example of a companies never ending demand to lower prices really causing havoc while flaunting a weird form of excess.

Having been in a Chinese factory that produces plywood I’d just like to say that there is a reason they have no problem putting lead in the paint that goes on childrens toys.

Dear Victoriu, how was your 20 year anniversary of the slaughter at Tiennamen Square??

Any questions ???????

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

I bought several sheets of “Baltic Birch” made in China ?..................Once…........a long time ago

I made flower boxes that hang on the railings that are made sopeople dont fall off your deck,my deck. I made the flower boxes out of Chinese Baltic Birch Plywood and hung them up, filled them with “Miracle Grow” potting soil and planted flowers in the soil.

That was at least 3 years ago, and the flower boxes, exposed to rain, snow, sleet, driving wind, plus temeratures of almost 35 degrees celcius to minus 35 degrees Celcius…..........in a day?

My flowers look as good today, as the day I first planted them….....probably better due to a few years experience as to what flower does better in Chinese baltic birch outdoor flwoer boxes…...........in Chinese made plywood made into flowers boxes by me?

Cheers

I give them at least another 3, maybe 4, maybe 5 years till I have to make new flower boxes

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

See formaldahyde…...................

-- http://www.federalsaw.com

roman, what type perennials are you growing in your Chinese boxes?

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

Well I just want to add my 2cents worth.

Having had to work in and with large corporations that deal with the chinese production system, the only consistent fact that has emerged, is that, if they want a quality product, they really have to send a and must keep their (Corporation) quality control department over there (in China) to keep those factories in check.

If the product does not pass QC it is rejected and then, somehow you find it being sold on Ebay with the original brand removed, they go as far as sanding out the electronic components plastic bodies (the chips) to remove all traces of the source.

So if anyone is willing to bet money on their QC good luck I rather play the Lotto or PowerBall, but that’s just me….

i doubt it

-- JJ...... I guess you could say I'm a 54 year old "juniorjock". — Make things with wood.

I believe that the quality we are seeing at the box stores is exactly what they are ordering, low grade plywood that they can charge a premium price for. HD carries maple ply here but Lowes doesn’t, I have seen 3/4” oak at HD with the veneer so thin you could see the glue underneath the veneer. I try to purchase all of my plywood from a local custom cabinet shop, 5 ply but a good thick veneer. There is a reason we are losing so much of our industry to China it is all about the Dollar and they are willing to work cheaper for it.

-- Steve Phelps

1. I’m not sure these “Chinese” people are real. Could be somebody pulling our collective chains, with phony Chingalese.

2. Many Chinese manufacturers have the ability tp make high quality stuff if they want to.

3. If these people are real, and will sell what we want, cut the crap and just tell us where we should go to buy it.

4. Even if they do sell the good stuff (at higher prices) why should we buy it from them instead of from domestic suppliers who as a matter of principle have never sacrificed their reputation by producing junk.

-- Joe

_hi,Guys
i am plywood factory from China. i have read your comments. _

I wasnt aware that a Chineese plywood factory could type, or read. And this plywood factory has an internet connection as well. Wow Martin, your website is gaining popularity with industrial buildings all over the world..remember the thread that the fish processing plant from Alaska started?

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

Estoy de chinos y de lo chino hasta la corona!

-- Francisco Luna, San Francisco Bay Area.

I think the west is still a long way off rushing out to buy stuff just because it’s made in China.LOL But when I was a boy exactly the same applied to Japan now there stuff is a bye word for quality.it just shows you what can happen in a few hundred years LOL wait I’m not that old well say forty-ish years. Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

hi friends , sorry to get on line so late .

nearly all of you are not sure about the plywood, as one friend above said , some just provide the product according the price the client provide, so if you provide good price , i am convinced the product is good .

any question pls contact me.
MIKI
MAIL:plywoodlv@yahoo.com.cn

-- Everything is possible!

Miki,

Why don’t you make a GOOD product instead of CRAP?

Crap is bad… will not continue to sell (that’s why we are talking about it now).

A GOOD product, even if it costs a LITTLE bit more, and is still COMPETETIVE, will continue to sell because it it’s GOOD.

If it’s Bad, it will not continue to sell.

OK, now, when will you make a GOOD product?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Here is the problem as I see it.

People make something for less money and inferior quality. Everyone sees the new lower price and “tries” it. In the meantime, the original producer loses sales. People come back, but the original producer has lost some volume putting strain on their business. Another new competitor with a new name comes along and undercuts the original supplier in the same way. same results.

Eventually, the original competitor has been bruised badly enough by these fly by night operations that they close their doors. The last new competitor has the benefit of timing and is the only remiaing options and gets all the original competitors business.

Then the cycle starts all over again lowering standards further and further until a new company comes along offering a “premium” product that everyone says costs too much, but in reality, it probably costs the same as the original producer that went under but we’ve forgotten what it costs to buy quality after so many inferior products. Just my opinion.

HokieMojo,

Very good points…

Therefore, as I see it now, there should be quality Standards set and this product must Pass those Standard specifications before it can be sold in the USA.

Then, everyone concerned would know, up front, what they were receiving (or what they were supposed to be) and could plan accordingly.

Like food… Food has to be good food…. has to conform to standards… we don’t get poisoned (so goes the Plan, anyway).

If a product does not meet the set standards, heavy fines are charged and the products quarantined, and STOPPED from being sold.

How does something like that sound?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Like the KCMA standard for cabinet shops? It does ensure certain standards are met at a bare minimum. It also makes some of the smaller guys miss out. It requires testing / audits by KCMA to ensure those standards are met and those do come at a cost.

-- Why do you have to die with the most tools to win? I want to live with the most tools!

OK, I guess we can’t have our cake & eat it too… :)

Is the added cost, etc. worth NOT having the problems that HokieMojo pointed out?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

In response to Joe Lyddon’s post – There used to be set standards for many products, whether imported or local. These requirements were dismantled over the course of the last 10 years or so. One I can think of used to be that if a product was labeled “all wood”, it had to be ALL wood. Plywood did not meet this standard. Now, you have to be careful, as “all wood” products might be “all plywood”.

Maybe it’s time we started rattling our legislators cages about this to return to a standards based system.

-- Joel, CA

Joe,
I do think standards need to exist and they should somehow need to be monitored (either by an agency appointed to uphold high standards or a gov’t agency – I dont’ want to get political). I think if it doesn’t meet the standards, of a higher grade, it should get the lowest grading. I think it is that simple. I’m pretty sure plywood is graded, but I’m not sure who does it. If it is done, I don’t see the big box stores going out of their way to use offical grade descriptions (1A, 2C, etc).

If there was a Law that the big box stores sell Graded wood products, you don’t think they would? :) :)

Iplanner: Yes, I’d like to know why the standards were removed (maybe by some lobby against it?). They should definitely be reinstated.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I absolutely agree there should be a standard and adding minimal cost is worth it. We just need a way to make sure a group doesn’t drive unnecessary cost into the system to slap their label on it just to add cost (much like the automotive standard has done). The old adage “You get what you pay for” is almost always true. The only time I have ever seen it not true is when buying composted manure.

-- Why do you have to die with the most tools to win? I want to live with the most tools!

A lot of people on this forum are asking why don’t plywood factories from China stop making crap ply (like the stuff at HD or Lowes) and start making good product?

Here is the answer….

Because they make money off of it! HD and Lowes, do not specialize in plywood for fine woodworkers, they specialize in construction grade lumber. These stores buy cheap ply because construction companies want it. If they can build a house cheaper using cheap ply that won’t be noticed compared to the good stuff, than why not? Why use premium grade ply to put on a floor if your going to cover it up with carpet or hardwood!

Its tempting to see cheaper wood HD and Lowes, but after falling victim to this a few times I have come to realize that these stores are not for woodworkers. They are construction outfits that have a reputation for being the place to go for any building need.

About the only way people will stop cheap ply is if they demand that the good stuff be used in all products, but that would mean higher prices and based on the amount of people I see going into these stores and similar stores like Walmart, it seems pretty clear that people are willing to sacrafice quality for price.

I think we had another debate along these lines on the India rosewood tables at Target. Unfortunately, the supply is driven by the demand…as long as there is demand for lower prices….there will be crappy materials made as cheaply as possible….Educated workers do not work for the extremely low pay that exists in these mass production cheap companies….and they usually don’t have a budget for QC either…..

As shown by Grizzly though, a good product can be made if the pay is good and the QC is there….it is not the fault of China, India…Phillipines…etc. that we get crappy products….it is the fault of our companies drive for more profits…less expense…and the fact that consumers continue to purchase the crap….

Needless to say…if you always buy quality…at a fair price…that is what will become more readily available…

My .02 cents..

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

OK, and it’s ONLY at Lowes & HD?

It has no effect on other ply at other places? Wood product stores & lumber yds.?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I used Lowes chinese oak cabinet grade plywood on one kitchen. Got NOTHING good to say about it. The voids were bad enough but whatever they put in that stuff ruined every carbide tool I put into it. Cost me a lot more than domestic plywood in the long run

-- mike & judy western md. www. pvwoodcrafts.com pvwccf1@verizon.net

I was just thinking as to what the Chinese have available as far as wood quality? Do they try to use the garbage that the fly by nighters throw together for the cheap markets over here? ....do they import? Or do they have a domestic premium supplier? I’m always curious what our breathren in different countries have to overcome.

My company has done several jobs for Chinese companies….they are very silent on the quality of what they get domestically…They have very good architects and engineers….yet we were concerned as to the supply of skilled tradesmen…it is always interesting to work with different cultures…a great experience by the way.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

I have never used Chinese ply wood so I can’t comment on quality. But one thing I can say
Buy American every chance you get _Our country depends on it and our American workers depend on it
God Bless America

-- God is great beer is good and people are crazy

Folks, to quote a great little philosopher who goes by the name of Pogo:

“We have met the enemy, and he is us!”

Both Home Depot and Lowes will sell us what we want. And yes, they sell Chinese plywood because that is what WE (as a consumer society) WANT! Don’t think so?

Both Home Depot and Lowes sell domestic plywood! It’s called “special order”. At Home Depot, walk up to the Pro Desk. At Lowes, step up to the Commercial desk. BOTH can special order ANY domestic plywood you want. You just have to be willing to pay for it! Of course it’s going to cost more than what either company stocks by the bunk because our “consumer society” is largely unwilling to pay the price.

I have worked for both companies as a Pro Desk Associate/Commercial Desk Specialist. I was VERY happy to place special orders for my customers. They got what they wanted. I did my job. All was good with the world.

Just my two cents. I’ll step down off my soap box now.

-- Dave; Lansing, Kansas

thanks for the response firehouse. that should REALLY help some people out that have said the only store around is HD or lowes. I wonder if the same goes for getting domestic hardwood lumber (other than oak and poplar).

FirehouseWoodworking, is there a sign over the Crap Ply (or anywhere near) to the effect:

”If you don’t like this plywood, we can Special Order good American plywood for you.”

?

If not, how does one find out, other than from you on this forum?

Thank you.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

HokieMojo,

Yes, they can order hardwood lumber. It will be a crapshoot on the L x W that you will get. And most likely, there will be a minimum Board Foot quantity per order.

Joe,

They most likely don’t want to advertise the service. They make less because the “margin” is most times much lower, and the margin on lumber products – even stock items – is really quite low. The big box stores make their profits on the other stuff in the stores, not the lumber. The lumber is there just to bring you in.

To Both of You,

How do you find out? By asking. And then, hope that you ask an associate who gives a damn. It is often times an involved process and many view it as not worth it. In Lowes, where the “specialists” and “associates” actually make commission on their sales, the commission is somewhat higher for special order items than for stock items, so there is that incentive. But again, it can be a headache for some because they don’t know how. Home Depot doesn’t offer the individual associate and commission, just the entire store staff if they make sales quota over a certain period of time. Most often, it’s not seen as a worthwhile incentive.

Bottom line that I would recommend is to spend some time talking to the associates. Figure out who the motivated ones are and those that know their product and their business. For most LJs, that’s going to mean talking to the Commercial Sales (Lowes) or Pro Desk (HD) folks. And they are normally there during weekday, daytime hours. Their primary focus is the contractor and commercial client but the good ones – the ones you will have to determine and seek out – will spend the time with you as well.

I always tried to give my best to everyone who came into my store. On more than one occasion, that customer that I spend 30 minutes special ordering that one $50 item, and then another 15 minutes explaining how to install it because they claimed complete ignorance, turned out to be the owner of the construction company or the manager of the apartment complex. AND THEY REMEMBERED THE TIME AND SERVICE! And they told all their contractor buddies.

You should expect good service. And then when you get it, tell the manager and tell all you friends. As an associate, it always feels good to be recognized and appreciated.
I enjoyed – for the most part – my time with both companies because I enjoyed making the customers happy.

Good luck in your efforts. Don’t just give up if you have one or two “less than good” experiences. Everybody has a bad day. Just keep looking for that gem of an associate and base your judgment on that one smart, hardworking gal or guy. You’d be surprised how your view of the entire store and company will be affected!

And give us some feedback on your experience.

Wow. That was somewhat long winded! Sorry.

Cheers!

-- Dave; Lansing, Kansas

FirehouseWoodworking, thank you for the run down! Very interesting!
Someday, I’ll have to see if I can find the Pros to talk to…

Do you still work at one of them? Where are you now?

Sounds like you’re a very good employee that deserves a very good job!

Thank you again…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Thanks, Joe. I tried to do my best by my customers.

I sometimes miss it, but alas, it’s now easier paying the bills with my current position. I train firefighters with our state’s training agency.

But there are still GOOD and GREAT employees at both the stores I worked. And I continue to buy there, as well as our local lumber yard and at the “specialty” stores (tools, lumber, hardware, etc.) throughout the Kansas City Metro area. I consider myself an “informed consumer” and constantly fight the urge to look only for the lowest price.

I can think back to a number of instances with customers where I would send them to our competition because I knew the competitor carried something we did not. One night, almost at the end of my shift, I had a contractor come into Lowes for a specific item that we did not carry but I knew a Kansas City Hardware store did. I called them to make sure they had it in stock. They did. Then I told the contractor where to find it in the store, as I had previously bought some for myself. I told him to hurry because the hardware store would soon be closing.

He looked at me like I was crazy. He thought I was pulling his chain and sending him on a wild goose chase. I insisted he get to the store. I even called the store back and asked them to hold on a few minutes in case he didn’t make it before closing. The contractor left.

Turns out he was the general contractor building a rather large and prestiegious restaurant near by. It turned out that the grand opening was scheduled for the next day and what he was looking for was the only thing stopping the building inspector from signing off on the occupancy permit.

He came back the next evening, looking for me, but I had already gone home. He left two dozen free dinner vouchers with my store manager! And he came back again the next day during my shift, just to personally say thanks! Needless to say, it made my day.

I still smile as I think about that incident. It was times like those that made me especially enjoy the work. It all comes down to mt trying to treat people the way I would have liked to be treated. When I was doing contracting work, I knew the associates in various stores that I could trust. I learned so much from so many of them. I sought out their advice and tried to buy from them. Even if it meant paying a little more, or driving a little further. Sure I didn’t make quite as much on a job, but what I “made” could not be bought!

And that is essentially what I think we ALL should do. It is easy to beef and grumble about an inferior product. Yet we so often continue buying it, believing we have no other choice.

We tend to take out our frustrations on the first floor associate we find. Most times, that associate has as much ability to affect change as I have to walk on the moon. But we will bad mouth them anyway.

What we need to do is to seek out that store manager and let him or her know how we feel. If they are not there – and remember that they have lives and families just like us – then go back again when they are there, if for no other reason than to make them aware. They may not be able to change it, but I can pretty well assure you that they will pass it up the line. They know that THEIR store’s sales has a direct impact on their PERSONAL success.

And then drop a line to the REGIONAL MANAGER. You can get the name and email or phone number from store management. Don’t lose your temper or spit out recriminations. Tell him or her what you think and why. These regional managers have the ear of the upper corporate management and they believe that one or two customers that go through the trouble to air their frustrations are signals of a much greater – and silent – undertone from a majority of their customer base.

The business slogan is that “A SATISFIED customer just walks away, and MAY come back again. A DISSATISFIED customer will tell EIGHT friends and probably WON’T come back.” Don’t believe that? Then scroll up and count the number of “satisfied customer” posts in this thread and then count the number of “DISSATISFIED customer” posts in this thread! We’re doing it right here folks.

Now lets get out there and tell those store managers. It takes a single step to start a journey. If we can start a revolution, we can affect change!

Okay. Enough of the economics and business lesson. And I’ll try to put my soapbox away this time, cause it seems that I keep pulling it out and climbing aboard!

Cheers!

-- Dave; Lansing, Kansas

Well Mikki M…. can only guess your surname, you good at ignoring the facts that people trying to bring,
trying to defend your busines… in fact it is not your business at all. My advice to you be honest with yourself – then you can not fool others.
It is prytty dificult to say:
I am sorry people – I know we trying to sell crap product for good price..
Well it is not your foult, and you still have a chance to change it.
You can not change the way plywood is made but you can change you work – find a better business and work with your hart on it.

There is a joke going on about Chinise products: All China made things have a timer when it colapses, normally it is the next day after the garantee period ends.

-- The way I work - the way I live. goldenhands

FirehouseWoodworking,

Thank you again for your experiences and Tips on how to handle it!

I have always hated to go into HD because I could NEVER find what I went in there for! It has always been going in and chasing your tail for an hour!

The last TWO times I went in, I did know where I was going, generally… I saw several employess walking around and asking “May I help you?” ... about blew me over! I go down the aisle where they said & knew better where to go, and ran into two more employees closer to where I was supposed to turn… They BOTH said in harmony, “May I help you?”... I smiled and said “No, I’m after such & such right down this aisle.”... One of them promply said “Yes, I’ll show you!”... again blew me away!

I think they have FINALLY gotten the message that alot of people need HELP on where to FIND what they’re looking for!

I’ve been back once since then… and will go back again (but I will NEVER buy any of their plywood (big grin)!
You have to know what you want & don’t want.

There is one time, I wanted a couple of things, & DID NOT WANT to go HD… I went to Orchard instead… I was treated like a King in their store and received help right away… I was out of there within 10 minutes!
When I got home, I called them, talked to the Manager and told him of my experience… He really appreciated it.

Thanks again… I will remember your tips.

Take care.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

This is really funny. I’ve read through this entire forum and noticed one thing. Hasn’t anyone else noticed. Miki’s last post….... All of a sudden her English was perfect. No broken English. I’m beginning to think we are great English teachers. 70 Post by Lumber Jocks and she now writes perfect sentences. Sounds fishy to me. For kicks…...go back and read each of her post.

-- John @ Myrtle Beach

I can’t tell… looks like same person/quality to me.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Mabye you all not understand. Maybe this help you understand how Chinese understand the world

Learn Chinese in 5 Minutes

1) That’s not right….................................................. Sum Ting Wong

2) Are you harbouring a fugitive….......................... Hu Yu Hai Ding

3) See me ASAP….................................................... Kum Hia

4) Stupid Man…........................................................ Dum Gai

5) Small Horse…....................................................... Tai Ni Po Ni

6) Did you go to the beach…....................................... Wai Yu So Tan

7) I bumped the coffee table….................................... Ai Bang Mai Ni

8) I think you need a face lift….................................. Chin Tu Fat

9) It’s Very dark in here…............................................ Wao So Dim

10) I Thought you were on a diet…............................. Wai Yu Mun Ching

11) This is a tow away zone…..................................... No Pah King

12) Our meeting is scheduled for next week…........... Wai Yu Kum Nao

13) Staying out of sight…............................................ Lei Ying Lo

14) He’s cleaning his automobile ….......................... Wa Shing Ka

15)Your body odor is offensive….............................. Yu Stin Ki Pu

16) Great….................................................................. Fa Kin Su Pah

17) Miki’s factory ....................................................... Wha Went Wong

-- "Even small steps makes a distance." (Shawn Phillips, musician)

LOL

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I’m guessing that’s the end of this topic. We went from discussing how the consumer drives demand for inferior product, to how as discerning woodworkers we shop at quality providers, to this.

Next!

Joel

-- Joel, CA

Joe Lyddon,
i am sorry , pls respect chinese!one egg is bad , not all the egg is bad !

-- Everything is possible!