A question for the Electricians out there

Hard to say if that quote is reasonable since nobody has actually looked at your job. If it were me, I would get someone to come to your house so you can define your requirements/desires, and they can give you a bid based on knowing the actual situation.

Mkae sure that it’s a licensed electrician and you/he/she pulls all necessary permits.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

I have several sub-panels installed off my main panel, including a 100 amp panel for my garage/shop. The breaker for the sub-panel goes into your existing panel, (ie. above the 200 amp main breaker). I can’t comment on the electrical code for NJ; GFCI breakers are pricey (especially for 60 amps!) but I’d do it, even if not required by code.

-- Rob, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario

I’ve got appointments with two other electricians on Monday and calls into two more; all licensed. I do plan on getting permits. I put in my shop circuits myself, and I plan on ripping them out if I ever sell the place, but I want this done permanently.

I was a little surprised with some of the things the guy told me, and his quote, so I though I’d run it by the folks here and try to get some better info. I hate not knowing exactly what needs to be done to tell if the scope is real or padded.

-- John

They make breakers for your 110 circuits where you get 2 breakers in the space of one breaker. If you have 15amp circuits (usually lighting, smoke detectors, non-kitchen outlets, etc…) you can compress some space and not even need a new panel box. HOWEVER, you still need a qualified electrician to be sure you’re not exceeding the rating of the current panel box. If you have a 200 amp service (I have the same) and you’re using 40 slots already, I’m assuming you have a fairly large house. He’ll need to look at the existing loads to see if this is even possible without upgrading the service to higher amperage.

Charlie, thank you for reminding me! Total brain fart; I’m aware of half height breakers, used them in the past, and for some reason, completely forgot about them! I could consolidate a four first/second floor lighting circuits with half height breakers and make enough room for a 30amp 220v breaker.

My house is a decent size, the electrician really spread out the circuits. There must be three or four general lighting circuits for each floor, not including receptacles. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’m not concerned about adding one additional 30 to the panel.

I’ll still get the estimates, but I think I’m going to end up going that route.

Thanks again!

-- John

i’d say $680 is reasonable. i’m an electrician and my co-workers that do residential work all charge about $1000 for a full panel upgrade. your subpanel bid seems in line with that.

Mantario, I’m not sure what you meant about “The breaker for the sub-panel goes into your existing panel, (ie. above the 200 amp main breaker).” but to me, “above the main breaker” means directly on the main feed before the main breaker. NO. This would require wiring the sub feed breaker onto hot feeds. The main breaker for the sub panel goes on the buss in the regular panel along with all the other breakers.

Anyway, I was going to suggest the double breakers and that sounds like the way the OP is going so it really does not matter at this point.

Also, you can’t really overload a breaker panel. If you count up the total capacity of all the small breakers in a typical panel the total will be much more than the main.

i.e. If you had 40 slots filled with 15 amp breakers that would be 600 amps total; way more than the stated 200 amp capacity.

It works because everything is never fully loaded and on at the same time and if it ever got over the 200 amp capacity of the main, it would trip and protect the main feed and panel. The normal expected usage is typically about 20% of installed capacity.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

Michael, I meant into the panel with the rest of the breakers. I didn’t describe it very well. I try to keep away from the hot feeds!

-- Rob, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario

Install the 60 to 100 amp sub panel below existing panel.
Re-route / re-wire the 2 existing 110v workshop circuits to the new sub panel
feed sub panel with 220 from the 2 freed up slots in main panel, with appropriate new double pole breaker.
feed cyclone from new sub panel.

easy as pie

-- Crashn - the only thing I make more of than sawdust is mistakes

Thanks all.

Crashn, that really doesn’t sound too bad, and I would be game to do it myself. I do most of my own wiring. I’m more concerned about permits. I haven’t gotten permits for any of the work in my shop (like putting up walls or running electric) so I really don’t want to invite the inspector to take a look. If I used a licensed electrician I doubt they would even bother looking at it. Maybe I’ll go that route and just plan on ripping it out if I ever move, as I plan to do to my shop walls and wiring. I know everything is safe, I just hate dealing with our Borough permitting guys.

Bent, I appreciate the input, but I still struggle with the estimate. $1000 to disconnect dozens of circuits, pull out an old fuse panel, install a new panel with dozens of new breakers, and reconnect everything doesn’t sound terrible. This is just mounting a small panel, moving two circuits, and providing one new breaker; $680 just seems steep to me. Maybe I’m just cheap.

-- John

You have lots of time involved getting a full service panel changed that still happens just adding a sub-panel. It is hard to get much done for less than 5 or 600 other than a basic service call to do a simple troubleshoot and repair. I very seldom quote anything but that at less than 500.

40 circuits is the max allowed in a panel board. If you have a full sized 40 circuit panel, you will have to use a sub. the double breakers that fit a single full sized space will not fit in your panel.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence Wake Up America!! Please read; http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

Topomax, I was hoping you would jump in. When you say 40 is the max, I assume you mean by code?

I do have a 40 breaker panel that is completely full; 38 installed by the original electrician and two I added. Physically, why wouldn’t double breakers fit in place of single breakers? It’s a Seimens panel with type QP breakers; it looks like they sell ones that are two breakers in a single width housing.

-- John

Yup, code limits manufacturers to 40. The panels and breakers are designed so you can’t put more than 40 in them. If you ave a 20/40, it will take doubles in all 20 spaces or 20 full sized. A 30/40, only 10 will take doubles or full sized, 20 will take full sized only making a total possible of 40. A 40 will not take any doubles, only full sized.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence Wake Up America!! Please read; http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

JMos- I’m no electrician, but i just had a 100amp sub-panel installed a few weeks ago in my basement. The wire (and it is a big “wire” ) is just run out of the 200amp main panel as one double 50amp breaker. I have a 30 slotted box that too was full. I thought I needed a new main, but he just cannibalized two of the slots somehow. He installed GFCI outlets off of the sub-panel.

Price $700. I had a friend who’s brother’s an electrician tell me to expect between $700-$800 for installation. Guy was done within 2 hours. I live within 3 hours of you up in NY so our prices should be similar. Happy I did it. This guy helped me in a jam before and wouldn’t take any money so I didn’t even think of shopping around, but there are lots of out of work union electricians around who might like a quick side job. Might be worth doing some searching if you have the time to wait.

You are right, its not too bad to do. I did it myself, in EXACTLY the same way, but my subpanel is in the workshop, with 10/3 running between the main panel and sub. I recently had to do a service entrance upgrade, and only a Master electrician can pull the permit for that, and when the inspector came, he passed my work along with the electricians in one shot. I don’t even think he knew that the subpanel was done before the main panel upgrade.
Good luck and when done, you will enjoy the new service in your workshop :)

-- Crashn - the only thing I make more of than sawdust is mistakes