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HF Dust collection question

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Forum topic by 6t5Goat posted 03-24-2012 04:30 PM 3409 views 2 times favorited 32 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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6t5Goat

71 posts in 1700 days


03-24-2012 04:30 PM

I pick up the 2 hp HF Dust Collector yesterday and got it all assembled…

My previous system was a Ridgid Shop vac with a 30 gallon trash can collector with a thein baffle.. It worked okay.. but it didn’t quite have enough suction.. This morning I stepped down the HF DC to the 2.5 inch hoses and I’m getting only marginally better performance than I got with the shop vac…

Now I realize that I now need to spend more money on accessories than I have spent on the Dust Collector..

So.. Question is..

Should I ditch the Y connection on the HF dust collector and go 5 inch from the dust collector to the seperator? Then 4 inch Rockler Dust right system to all the tools? Or.. Should it be 4 inch all the way…

I can’t seem to find 5 inch DC fittings.. Like flanges that I would need to add to my baffle.. Any sources for 5 inch flanges?

Only one tool will be connected at a time.. As I just have a small basement shop… Most all my tools have 4 inch dust ports.. except the Miter Saw and Router table..


32 replies so far

View pmayer's profile

pmayer

593 posts in 1753 days


#1 posted 03-24-2012 05:04 PM

I wouldn’t worry too much about going 5” from the DC to the separator, but keep the lin short between the two. The bigger concern is keeping the amount of flex hose to a bare minimum because it kills performance. I recently did a test where I measured CFM on a port with mostly PVC and a couple feet of flext at the end, and then the same length duct but this time 14 ft of flex at the end, and the CFM dropped from 850 to 550. There were other minor variables so it wasn’t a purely scientific test, but the difference was dramatic. The “real world” result was that 850 CFM kept up with my planer just fine, but 550 CFM didn’t cut it. I would consider building the Thein baffle into the DC itself, and using a single 10’ x 4” flex hose and I think that DC will keep up with any machine in your shop under most conditions.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

View DIYaholic's profile

DIYaholic

13767 posts in 1363 days


#2 posted 03-24-2012 05:07 PM

5” ducting/connectors is/are difficult to source, according to posts here on LJs. I believe 5” MAY be available online, but probably not worth the added cost. I would go with 4” ducting.

Reducing ducting/hoses from 4” to 2-1/2” hoses creates too much resistance. Not only the CFMs (volume of air) are reduced, but the flexible hose also is an added restriction. Staight & smooth is the goal!!! Whether standard PVC, sewer & drain PVC or metal ducting, the “utimate” design should be as straight as possible and have as short of a run of flex hose as possible. ANY bend in ducting should be 45 degrees as opposed to 90 degrees. If neccesary, run 2 45 degree fittings with a short straight section (instead of 1 90 degree fitting).

I have the HF 2HP DC also. I have not run ducting yet, but I will be shortly. I’m more than likely going to use the 5” to 4” “Y” fitting that came with the unit and duct the shop with 4” metal ducting.

The other consideration for shop dust collection is an ambient air cleaner. The ambient air cleaner filters the air of the small (.5 micron) particles that the “Dust Collector” misses at the machine. It is the small particles that end up being inhailed & DESTROY lung function. You can do a search for shop made &/or purchased air cleaners.

Good luck, have fun & STAY SAFE in your shop.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procratination a bad thing?

View brtech's profile

brtech

682 posts in 1611 days


#3 posted 03-24-2012 05:22 PM

If you adding a trash can separator to the HF, then I think you are pretty much stuck with 4”.

If you are more ambitious, some jocks have moved and rotated the blower so that it’s a straight shot to the ring, and straight down to the separator. The motor is then vertical rather than horizontal as it is normally assembled. If you did that, I’d think about getting some 5” snaploc for the short runs from ring to motor and motor to separator. I notice that fireplace stores have 5” for some stoves.

I think you would be very happy with the Rockler system, but I also think a length of regular flex will also be just fine as long as the only thing you are doing is running from the separator to the tool. If you have a mix of rigid PVC and flex, you lose CFM fast in the flex.

Putting the Thien baffle in the ring is also a good option. The only downside is all the chips go through the impeller, and it’s harder to empty the bag than a trash can.

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2041 days


#4 posted 03-24-2012 05:46 PM

5” ducting isn’t that hard to find, maybe locally it is. All my main trunks are 5” and only drop to 4” right close to the machines. With the exception of the table saw, that has 5” all the way to it. Long 5” runs are way better then long 4” runs. I got all my piping, 5” and 4” from Oneida. This was my 4th iteration of dust collection, shop vac and Craftsman 2-1/2” piping, 1HP dust collector and 4” PVC, Delta 1-1/2HP 1200 CFM dust collector and 4” PVC, and finally Oneida cyclone and 5” metal piping. Four times was enough, was not going to do it five times so this time I did it right.

Read all I could get my hands on on the subject, even industrial level design books. Leveraged Oneida’s engineers who convinced me not to go with 6” main trunks even though the cyclone’s inlet was 6”, definitely do not go with 4” main trunks, go with 5” mains trunks. I listened and was sure glad I did.

I have a Dwyer digital manometer and while designing and installing the plumbing used it with pitot tube to determine air flow velocity, CFM, static pressure, etc. so as to optimize it. As I said I wasn’t going to do it again.

I have a gauge connected permanently to the main trunk close to the cyclones inlet that measures static pressure and keep an eye on it telling me performance. I took measurements with it when everything was clean so I know what it should be reading for each machine thus any deviation could indicate reduced performance. Planning on and have a gauge to put on the exhaust right before the big filter that will indicate air pressure there, when the reading increases, time to clean the filter.

My point being, don’t skimp, do it the best you can the first time so you’re satisfied with it and won’t have to do it again like I did. But I will say, when I started this dust collecting thing nearly 20 years ago the options then weren’t anywhere near what they are today. You couldn’t even buy a dust collector locally like today and selection was extremely limited. So that in part fostered some of my iterations, but I eventually got there and don’t have to clean out machines like the Unisaw’s cabinet any more. Not at all. And that was my goal.

Can you tell, I hate cleaning up sawdust…

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View brtech's profile

brtech

682 posts in 1611 days


#5 posted 03-24-2012 06:03 PM

But the OP just spent $150 (mor or less) on a 2HP HF DC. Sure, you can get 5”, but at what cost?

If he can get to all his tools with 10’ of 4” flex, for sure, he doesn’t need 5” anywhere.

If the flex length is 20, well that’s pushing it, but it’s possible.

If you were running a main line down the shop with Wyes down to machines, a 5” main would be ideal on this DC. But 4” works. Lots of shops do that with this machine, as long as the runs are short, the bends are wide sweep or two 45s with a short straight section and the junctions are wyes, not Ts.

As with yours, while 5” may seem right, with long lengths, actually 4” may be better. Your cyclone has a lot more CFM than the HF DC.

An Oneida Cyclone and 5” mains sounds great. But also more than a bit above the price point here.

You can go read up at Bill Penz’ site. He says you need 5HP and 6” mains, with a well designed cyclone and excellent filtration. I’ll get there some day. Right now, my 2HP HF and 4” pipe works okay.

I will say this: the first thing you want to add to the HF DC is the Wynn Engineering 35A canister filter. It will make the most difference, both in increasing CFM and in decreasing dangerous dust particles. Drop in upgrade for this DC, nice folks to deal with, and the best investment in your health you can make beyond the DC itself.

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1700 days


#6 posted 03-24-2012 06:14 PM

I realize 2.5 isn’t going to cut it..

4 inch PVC drain pipe is pretty cheap here.. 1 buck a foot.. I could really plumb my entire shop with that for under 50 bucks for pipe and fittings..

not counting blast gates and making final connections to each machine..

Are there blast gates that fit directly on 4 inch PVC drain pipe?

Will the PVC really flow that much more air than the flex pipe?

The Wynn filter is in the plans.. And I have a shop built HVAC type air filter already running..

View DIYaholic's profile

DIYaholic

13767 posts in 1363 days


#7 posted 03-24-2012 06:24 PM

Ditto what brtech said re: Wynn Enviromental 35A cartridge filter. I went with the NANO, but other (less expensive) options are available.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procratination a bad thing?

View brtech's profile

brtech

682 posts in 1611 days


#8 posted 03-24-2012 06:27 PM

Yes, my blast gates fit 4” S&D PVC just fine. They fit inside.

Yes, PVC is MUCH better than flex

Just remember: Wyes not Ts, wide sweep or 2×45 with straight, not 90s.

The thing is: you usually do hard pipe runs overhead. So you have to come up out of the DC, across to the drop, down to the tool inlet. The pipe length is often 2X what flex direct from the DC to the tool would be. PVC is much better, but is it 2X better? Probably not. But it’s a heck of a lot easier to open the blast gate than it is to snake the flex over and mate it to the tool.

You do have to remember to close the blast gates you aren’t using.

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1700 days


#9 posted 03-24-2012 06:37 PM

This just got a bunch more complicated..

I’ve got lots of planning to do..

View ellen35's profile

ellen35

2576 posts in 2121 days


#10 posted 03-24-2012 07:02 PM

I got rid of the Y on my HF dust collector… replaced it with a nice piece of stove pipe reducer.

-- "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Voltaire

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2041 days


#11 posted 03-24-2012 07:10 PM

As with yours, while 5” may seem right, with long lengths, actually 4” may be better. Your cyclone has a lot more CFM than the HF DC.

With all due respect, am I to believe you or Oneida engineering who know their products and what they can do I would have to assume better then anybody.

But also more than a bit above the price point here.

I missed the part where the OP mentioned a price point other then the fact he needs to spend more money which is pretty much a given.

You can go read up at Bill Penz’ site.

I have. And it’s Bill Pentz.

I was only relating my personal experience to provide insight and maybe provoke thought on how he may want to do it to get good performance and maybe avoid having to do it again or be disappointed. Where did I say anything in the context of “do this” or “do that”? The only thing I said that might even be close to that was don’t skimp, maybe I should have said try not to skimp.

I wasn’t the one that told him he wants to get a new filter although it may be a good idea. I respected the fact that I don’t know his budget.

This always seems to turn into a religious war.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

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BlankMan

1487 posts in 2041 days


#12 posted 03-24-2012 07:17 PM

Oops. definitely do not go with 4” main trunks, go with 5” mains trunks Taken out of context I can see how that might come across, that was Oneida telling me, not me telling the OP.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View brtech's profile

brtech

682 posts in 1611 days


#13 posted 03-24-2012 07:25 PM

On your Oneida Cyclone, I assume 5” is the right size. Oneida knows more than I do for sure.

On an HF DC, 5” is probably not the right size, but it depends on the duct length. If it’s short enough, 5” main and 4” drops probably would be ideal.

Oneida charges $16 plus shipping for 5’ of 5” snaploc. The OP is talking about $5 for that in 4” PVC. It’s always doable in 5”, it’s just expensive.

Don’t have a religion here. If I did, it would be Pentz’s (sorry about the spelling), which would be that you really need 1000 CFM at the tool.

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2041 days


#14 posted 03-24-2012 07:53 PM

On an HF DC, 5” is probably not the right size

Well is it or isn’t it? I don’t know. And doesn’t look like you do either. But if I wanted to know to design something the best way I could I would take steps to find out and do testing or what ever it took and not make assumptions.

Oneida charges $16 plus shipping for 5’ of 5” snaploc. The OP is talking about $5 for that in 4” PVC. It’s always doable in 5”, it’s just expensive.

Yeah. So? It always cost more to do things better. I wish it didn’t. Then I too could be driving a Bugatti Veyron.

Once the best way to do something is known is then the time to decide whether it is worth the cost and that is up to the person doing it to decide, not us. And it should be based as much as possible on facts, not assumptions or probably’s.

But I will admit, I come from the school of Mike Holmes, do it right the first time. Ain’t their yet but I’m a heck of a lot closer then I used to be because I learned. And that is what I’m trying to pass on to others.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View Dave's profile

Dave

34 posts in 1703 days


#15 posted 03-24-2012 07:54 PM

You should also cut out the piece of metal on the face of the inlet that would normally stop any chunks of wood from going through the impeller. This really impeads on the air flow and with the metal impeller you don’t need to worry about hurting it.

These types of dust collectors need sufficient air flow and don’t really produce a lot of vacuum, so you need atleast 4”. Get rid of the cheap wye it came with and pipe everything with 4” SWV pvc. It is cheap and lightweight. My planer has like a 3” hookup so I am using a fernco fitting(rubber coupoling with 2 hose clamps). You can find them at hardware store in plumbing section.

I wish I could get better dust control for my router table. It will be a project to master before the summer is over.

good luck

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