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Oh no, not another "my jointer won't joint" thread...

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Forum topic by Vrtigo1 posted 03-15-2012 02:12 AM 2210 views 0 times favorited 23 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Vrtigo1

432 posts in 1715 days


03-15-2012 02:12 AM

...well, yes…sorry, another one.

So I bought a Ridgid JP0610 off craigslist a while back, and it’s always run a bit “rougher” than I thought it should (i.e. vibration, etc), but initially it cut fine. However, over the past 6 months or so, I noticed that when I would try to joint a board, the front and read of the board would end up having more material removed that the center does. So if you were to look at the profile of a jointed board as it sits on the outfeed table, it would look something like this:

I bought new knives and replaced the original ones around that time, but that didn’t help so I just resigned myself to the fact that I didn’t have a working jointer, but recently I decided to spend the money to buy a real machinists straightedge, feeler gauges and oneway multi gauge in order to try and get it working again. I watched Marc Spag’s jointer setup video, and while I understand the concepts, for some reason, I just don’t seem to be able to put them into practice.

Now, the oneway multi gauge hasn’t arrived yet, so I don’t know for certain that the knives are even with the outfeed table, but I set my straightedge on the outfeed table and put it as close to the knives as I could without the two contacting each other and it looks pretty darn close to me, so I think I’m ok there.

Next, I rotated the cutterhead so there wasn’t a knife facing up, and then raised the infeed table so it was at the same height as the outfeed table and laid the straightedge across both tables. Unfortunately, my eyesight isn’t the greatest, but I couldn’t see any gaps. I used a .002” feeler gauge and was able to get it to slide under the straightedge with some resistance around the middle of the infeed table, but not closer toward the cutterhead or closer to the “infeed side” of the infeed table.

I also saw a shortcut for checking if the tables are coplanar by using two framing squares. I set the long leg of a square on each table with the short legs pointing up in the middle. When I did that and pushed the short legs of the squares together, they seemed to meet uniformly for the entire length of the short legs, which would seem to indicate that the tables are coplanar.

So, in short, help! :( I’ve done a lot of research online, but I think part of the problem is that there’s so MUCH out there, so I’m not sure where to begin.


23 replies so far

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5115 posts in 2436 days


#1 posted 03-15-2012 02:24 AM

If the machinery is okay it may be your technique. I’m not good enough to be able to explain the correct way but Know there have been LJs who have posted really good explanations, or links to explanation, here already. Of course you could also google for jointer technique and probably get a raft of videos on the topic.

HTH,
Mark

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View Trapshter's profile

Trapshter

62 posts in 1117 days


#2 posted 03-15-2012 02:24 AM

Well a couple of questions. Sorry if they sound stupid . Is the piece crowned up when you joint? Next if so the jointer is supposed to take more from the front and back until the board flatens out. The idea is to take material off the ends until the board is flat and then removes a uniform amount based on your settings. If the board is not crowned up. You will never flatten it. It will follow the contour of the board and will keep on doing that. Place the board on the in feed table and see which side the rocks and which side the board sits on the ends. This is the side you want to joint. Crown up both on the edge and on the face . Do not push down on the middle of the board . You know you have it right when you just take some off the front and the back and the middle is untouched on the first pass . The amount of wood coming off should increase with each pass until you have it straight
Jm

-- Smile and wave boys just smile and wave

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Kickback

127 posts in 1358 days


#3 posted 03-15-2012 04:57 AM

I had the same problem and it wasn’t the jointer. It was the wood I was trying to joint and it was crowned in the middle. Drove me nuts until someone pointed that out to me. I also replaced the knives with my other sharp set and that made a big difference as well.

-- "I work so I can fish"!

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tomd

1789 posts in 2493 days


#4 posted 03-15-2012 05:17 AM

I had the same problem too and it wasn’t the jointer or the wood, it was worse, it was me. I wasn’t using the proper techinque. No matter what the shape the edge of a board is a jointer is made to make it straight, the sample that you showed looked exacty like mine used to. A spent a little time and some old pine boards learning techinque now I get a good straight edge every time.

-- Tom D

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3528 posts in 1201 days


#5 posted 03-15-2012 07:47 AM

well again i am worried about this noise what is wrong with this jointer to where it makes the awful noise is a Bering out it the belt right this must be fixed first then look at technique and always read the wood first there are some great videos on the wood magazine site called jointer school and planer school there aren’t free but you do get what you pay for if you get my drift and i thinks Marks video is OK for setup

IMHO for many years I have ever only needed a good strait edge to set up a jointer and when i am done setting mine up the old way then check it with a dial indicator the new way my results are the same and it has never been a problem I was born with a tool in my hand so to speak and i am great at setting them up if i could just get that skill to pay something i would go around setting up other guys tools for profit but they would rather muck it up them selves than pay a pro just like a shade tree mechanic never pays to have his car fixed until he cant get it to run

once you get rid of the noise set to getting your knives strait take a sharpie and number the knives 1 2 3 then turn to no 1 make the knife level from side to side and level with your out feed table once this is dead on rotate to no 2 and adjust the knives until they are dead on then to no 3 do it the same way if they are coplanar with the out feed table on every knife and the knife is strait this requires you to check each in two places then your done

now check for slop in the cutter head bearing if it has wobble in the cutter head you wont ever get the knives right to check this before you do the knife set up then check the belts for slop and adjust them to the manufactures spec you can find the Manuel online if you don’t have one and don’t just keep a digital copy print it out too so you have it in the shop to refer too . jointer typically make a whine sound as the blades slice through the air but you describe something worse you must find what this is also check your tables for flatness and check for drooping tables this will cause all kinds of trouble the Manuel will cover this adjustment well so read it and check assume its wrong and them be happy if its flat but by all means check it out because if it droops you will never get a flat board and the adjustment on most jointers is strait forward and easy .

if you dont find the cause for the noise ask a more experienced woodworker to see if they think the noise is normal or find someone with the same jointer and see if you can listen to theirs the noise may be just how that model sounds

also the knife at it apex should touch the strait edge and rotating the head should move the straight edge but should not lift it I hope you understand this I am not familiar with the jointer you have but they are all about the same i have the powermatic54 a and i have set it up and several others for new woodworkers with out a guage for years no i have one i think it makes it easier to read but didn’t change my setup at all i don’t need magnets or toys to set up a jointer anyone can do it with a nice thick strait edge

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Mike's profile

Mike

306 posts in 1410 days


#6 posted 03-15-2012 11:54 AM

I have the same jointer. There are only two things that I can think of off hand that would cause the vibration. The first thing that comes to mind is that the motor is not seated all the way down. It seems like when the motor was bolted down, the belt was not fully engaged and it could be bouncing around. This would cause rough cutting since the belt would not be rotating smoothly. Also it could be that some of the bolts on the stand are loose too. Both of these are some what easy solutions. I don’t think it is the actually jointer itself. Just my two cents.

-- look Ma! I still got all eleven of my fingers! - http://www.termitecrafts.com

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canadianchips

1836 posts in 1720 days


#7 posted 03-15-2012 12:04 PM

A TIP to help with technique.
In simple terms..
The outfeed table decides how flat the board is going to be, the infeed table decides the amount of material you are going to take off at each pass.
FOCUS on putting pressure downward on the outfeed table (1/2 way ) just push material on infeed side (no downward pressure )

-- "My mission in life - make everyone smile !"

View OttawaP's profile

OttawaP

89 posts in 2449 days


#8 posted 03-15-2012 01:24 PM

This can happen when the outfeed is not parallel to the infeed, in other words the far end of the outfeed is higher than the blade side.

-- Paul

View Vrtigo1's profile

Vrtigo1

432 posts in 1715 days


#9 posted 03-15-2012 02:46 PM

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions. I think I am going to wait for the oneway to get here so I can actually check the blades to the outfeed table and be sure they are at the same height. I understand what is being said about the blades just touching the straightedge and moving it slightly but not lifting it. Since the knives are brand new, I would rather not go this route so I can minimize the amount of metal to metal contact on them.

As far as the jointer itself, it is not so much a noise that it is making as a vibration. It is not terrible, but from the videos I have seen online of the same machine that others have, theirs seem to run smoother. I have gone through the process of removing all the guards and removing the belt and rotated the motor pulley and it seemed to rotate freely with no issues. The cutterhead also seems to be in good condition with no play in it. The belt itself is original and seemed somewhat rigid, so I think I may replace it with a link belt to see if that helps any. I don’t recall if I checked the motor mount bolts, but I will do so.

I understand the concept of applying pressure primarily on the outfeed side of the cutterhead, since that is the flat surface the work is registering against. What I don’t understand is the comment about having the board crown up. I thought the jointer will eventually flatten the board regardless what shape it is in to begin with? But, the boards I have been using to test were all relatively flat to start with.

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Vrtigo1

432 posts in 1715 days


#10 posted 03-15-2012 02:47 PM

And actually – if there is someone in the Daytona Beach area that is an expert on this sort of thing and makes housecalls, I would be more than willing to pay them to come teach me…

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1093 days


#11 posted 03-15-2012 03:30 PM

I’ve found using the jointer to be more of a learning curve than I expected. It’s much harder to master than a planer.

Regarding a crown; if you have a board crown down (smiley face ) you can have a lot of trouble. If you put pressure on the leading edge of the board you rock it up and cut it, then as you go the board will rotate down, making it very difficult to get a flat surface. It’s better to go crown up (frowny face). Keep pressure in the leading edge, let the jointer cut it. Then keep very light pressure on the middle; the jointer blades may not even touch the board. Toward the end it will make contact again. This will slowly build flats on each end and you’ll sneak up on the crown, flattening the entire board.

I’ve also run into issues with boards with twist, as the board can rock as I feed it. I’ve had luck finding some spot on the board, usually in the middle, where it is stable, and only applying force on the board at that point as I pass it over the cutter. This seems to help the jointer take material off the low points and keep the board from rocking. If it rocks it will never flatten the board.

Another consideration is not to press down too hard while guiding the board. Similar to the way a planer will take a crowned board and make a thinner crowned board, if you press hard enough that you flatten the board going across the jointer cutter, it will spring back when you release pressure, leaving you with a thinner board that isn’t much flatter. I reduced a lot of boards to nothing before I worked this out for myself.

-- John

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pintodeluxe

3514 posts in 1536 days


#12 posted 03-15-2012 05:27 PM

You are correct, you truly need a feeler gauge to adjust a jointer. A small error in the coplanar adjustment is magnified over multiple passes, and will produce angled boards.
Just need to adjust the gibs until the feeler gauge measures no gap across infeed and outfeed beds (corrects angled board problem).
However, if your boards are convex then you may be sending them through the planer incorrectly.
If you happen to send one board through the jointer convex side down, it will surely get smaller but will never get straight!
Concave side down=two points of contact for stability.
Best of luck!

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

12951 posts in 1416 days


#13 posted 03-15-2012 05:30 PM

I’ve had a lot of trouble with jointer technique. Still do. I’ve had better results with Pinto’s method. I’ve reduced 4/4 to 1/4” thick before out of sheer frustration:)

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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thedude50

3528 posts in 1201 days


#14 posted 03-16-2012 06:06 AM

do not worry about the strait edge damaging your knives they wont be hut at all as they are harder than the strait edge funny how that works aye I think you might be on to something with the motor mount bolts any way good luck and pinto makes a great point balancing on one point never works never

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Vrtigo1's profile

Vrtigo1

432 posts in 1715 days


#15 posted 03-22-2012 03:22 AM

I got my oneway the other day and used it to check and adjust the knives to the outfeed table. My target was to have the knives 1 thousandth below the outfeed table as that is what I have seen recommended, and the instructions that came with the oneway recommended the knives be set between 1-2 thousandths below the outfeed table.

First off, one thing that concerned me is that I measured in three spots across the table…at the rear right next to the fence, in the middle of the table, and at the front of the table by the blade guard. I put the gauge on the table at the back so the base of the gauge and the tip of the dial indicator were both sitting on the outfeed table which should be flat, and I zeroed out the dial indicator. I moved the oneway to the front of the table and did the same thing and the dial still indicated zero, however in the middle of the table when I do the same thing, the dial reads -2 thousandths. So I guess that means there is a slight dip in the middle of the outfeed table at the very front? If the dip was constant along the entire middle of the outfeed table, then I would expect the dial indicator would still read zero and I wouldn’t be able to detect it without using a straightedge set perpindicular to the length of the outfeed table. That makes sense to me, does it make sense to anyone else? So, that is the first thing that concerns me (the fact that the dial indicator registers -2 in the middle of the outfeed, but registers zero at the front and back of the outfeed table).

Next, as I adjusted the knives, I spin the cutterhead around and labeled each knife as 1,2 and 3 with a sharpie, then I adjusted the knives and wrote down the height of the knives relative to the outfeed table at the back, middle and front (again, working away from the fence) of the outfeed table.

Each time I took a measurement, I made sure I zeroed the gauge out at the position it was in. That is to say I set the gauge at the back of the table near the fence, zeroed it to the table, then measured the blade height. Moved it to the middle of the table, did the same thing, and so on.

Here are the numbers I ended up with:

Knife 1

Back -.5
Middle +1
Front -1

Knife 2

Back -1
Middle +2
Front -.5

Knife 3

Back -1
Middle -1
Front -1

So, these numbers don’t make a lot of sense to me. Since I was reading -2 in the middle of the table, I assume I should add 2 to the middle numbers. That makes sense for some of the knives, but not all of them. So, should I assume that the knives are not straight? That seems to be what has to be going on here.

Hopefully this makes sense to someone, as I am not sure where to go from here.

BUT, the good news is that some of the knives were off by 5 or 6 thousandths in either direction, so they are much closer to where they are supposed to be than they were. I ran a board across and was able to get it relatively flat which in itself is a big improvement,

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